From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Sep  1 01:39:17 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:39:17 -0500
Subject: Horseshoes & Grenades (1970)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.203917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have no idea of a written citation, but the expression was fairly common
the first time I was in the Army, 65-68, as "Close only counts in horse
shoes and hand grenades."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>

   26 January 1970, THE GUTHRIAN (Guthrie County, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 1:
   Close only counts in horse shoes and grenades.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 02:37:55 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:37:55 -0400
Subject: Cookies and Cream (1978)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.223755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Cookies and Cream.  Cookies and Creme.  Cookies-n-Cream.
     I haven't done this, it appears.  It's a little difficult because there are are "creme cookies."  We're most familiar with the "cookies and cream" ice cream.  As per the trademarks below, "cookies and cream" took off with Blue Bell in 1978 and then Haagen Daz in 1983.  See the 1983 NEW YORK TIMES article, where it was popularized by Marian "comfort food" Burros.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      The Housekeeper
       Nancy Carey.       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: May 10, 1927.                   p. 9 (1 page):
      Cookie Dessert.

2.
      She Parlays Chicken Puffs Into Profits
       By Elinor Lee.       The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 4, 1957.                   p. C12 (1 page)

3.
      Anne's Reader Exchange
              The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 18, 1982.                   p. E4 (1 page) :
   That rich chocolate dessert made with cookies and cream requires one box of Nabisco chocolate wafer cookies (Magruder's does have them, but they are not readily available) and a half pint of whipping cream, sweetened to taste.
   Spread cookies with the cream, stacking them as you do.  Stand the row of them on edge on a serving platter.  Cover the row iwth the rest of the whipped cream.  Chill for 12 to 24 hours so cream soaks into cookies to make them cake-like.  Slice diagonally.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
              State Police Patrols Check Menace of Liquor and Motor Violators on Rural Highways
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Sep 5, 1924.                   p. 5 (1 page)

2.
      'Here's Your Breakfast, Mother'
       E.R.J..       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Nov 30, 1929.                   p. 12 (1 page)

3.
      Mrs. Fields turns chocolate chip cookies into a blue-chip business
       By Louise Sweeney Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Jan 15, 1986.                   p. 28 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Display Ad 69 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 25, 1933.                   p. SM20 (1 page)

2.
      MASS OUTLET GOAL OF BISCUIT MAKERS
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1951.                   p. 50 (1 page)

3.
      Display Ad 129 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1952.                   p. 96 (1 page)

4.
      COST OF FOOD FOR 4 DOWN 0.6% IN WEEK
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 6, 1975.                   p. 23 (1 page)

5.
      Food Notes
       Marian Burros.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 10, 1983.                   p. C9 (1 page):
   All the Haagen-Dazs dipping stores carry the new cookies and cream flavor, one of the company's most popular, which is a combination of vanilla ice cream and a chocolate cookie whose texture is reminiscent of the outside of an Oreo.  While it is not as good as chocolate chocolate chip, if you like Oreos and vanilla ice cream you will like the new flavor, at $1.25 a scoop.

6.
      ABOUT WESTCHESTER
       By LYNNE AMES.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 29, 1984.                   p. WC2 (1 page)

7.
      Food Notes|
       Florence Fabricant.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 30, 1986.                   p. C7 (1 page)

8.
      About Boston
       By COLIN CAMPBELLSpecial to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 16, 1986.                   p. 6 (1 page)


(TRADEMARKS)
 Word Mark
COOKIES 'N CREAM COOKIES 'N CREAM
 Goods and Services
(ABANDONED) IC  030.  US 046 046.  G & S: PREMIUM ICE CREAM PREMIUM ICE CREAM.  FIRST USE: 19781200.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19790900
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73315746
 Filing Date
June 22, 1981
 Owner
(APPLICANT) BLUE BELL CREAMERIES, INC. BLUE BELL    CREAMERIES, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS LOOP 577, P. O. BOX 1807 BRENHAM TEXAS 77833
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD


(TRADEMARKS)
 Word Mark
 BLUE BELL ICE CREAM SUPREME COOKIES 'N CREAM HALF GALLON
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: ICE CREAM.  FIRST USE: 19781000.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19781000
 Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
 Design Search Code
020701 030701 190725
 Serial Number
73420473
 Filing Date
April 7, 1983
 Published for Opposition
 July 30, 1985
 Change In Registration
CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED
 Registration Number
1374936
 Registration Date
December 10, 1985
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) BLUE BELL CREAMERIES, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS LOOP 577, P. O. BOX 1807 BRENHAM TEXAS 77833
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
LESTER L. HEWITT
 Prior Registrations
0972517;1144455
 Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "ICE CREAM", "COOKIES'N CREAM", "SUPREME", AND "HALF GALLON" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
 Description of Mark
THE DRAWING IS LINED FOR THE COLORS LIGHT BROWN AND GOLD.
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).
 Other Data
REGISTRATION RESTRICTED TO THE AREA COMPRISING THE UNITED STATES EXCEPT THE STATES OF OREGON, WASHINGTON, IDAHO, ALASKA AND MONTANA. CONCURRENT USE PROCEEDING NO. 852 WITH SUNSHINE BISCUITS, INC.
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Mon Sep  1 04:16:38 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:16:38 -0700
Subject: Plumcot (1903)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.211638.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Judith:


> We had one of those trees, when we had a house -- those are also called
> Italian plums . . . and it is too bad they aren't stocked somewhere.  They
> were a special part of autumn, from October on.  Not to mention the number
> of raccoons and squirrels who thought they were pretty good too.

So raccoons and squirrels like plums, huh?  Sounds familiar, only the ones
I'm familiar with seem to go for cherries in sesason(probably bnecause
nobody around here seems to grow plum trees in their back yard).  Robins
like them, too.  Cherries, I meaan.
Anne G


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 08:18:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 04:18:39 EDT
Subject: On the trail of the "pooch" (1913, 1914, 1917)
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.041839.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Merriam-Webster's 11th has "pooch n [origin unknown] (1924): DOG."
    I'm hot on the trail of this dog, and we'll see what PUCK has.  These
Ancestry citations are a little earlier than the 1919 cite I had posted here
before.



    24 May 1913, INDIANA MESSENGER (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. ?, col. 2:
   In the days of the continuous at the Olympic an occasional professional
visitor was a clown with an educated pig.  He used to take the pig out with him
when he had finished his act and had him harnessed up like a trick pooch with
a collar, shoulder straps and a leading string.

   26 October 1914, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana) pg. ?:
(Mutt and Jeff cartoon--ed.)
_Jeff Ought to Have the Only Dog in the Show Like This--By Bud Fisher_
MAN (Panel One, to Jeff, who is walking a dog):  HELLO, JEFF, WHERE DID YOU
GET THE POOCH?

   22 May 1917, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 19, col. 3:
LOST--White poodle female dog; child's playmate; answers to name of "Pooch."
Return to 127 East Main or phone 1796.


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Sep  1 12:37:33 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:37:33 -0400
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.083733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's something that may interest linguists (Ron Butters, Bethany Dumas, Roger Shuy, and others) who are into trademark consultancy:

1. The Beer Store® is essentially a place where beer is stored. But its wares (as declared in its application for registration as a trademark) are clothing, promotional items, and novelty wares. Its services are the operation of retail stores and sale of alcoholic beverages, especially beer. These, in my opinion, are accidental features (based on the philosophical distinction between "substance" and "accident"). "Beer store," therefore, is not "descriptive" (in trademark usage) of its goods and services.

2. The Corner Store® is essentially a store at a corner, but its declared wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components for forming mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not descriptive of the products it sells.

3. The General Store® is essentially a store of general merchandise, but its declared wares are computer software, catalogues, household electronic appliances, and stationery. It also sells travel services, catalogue marketing of consumer goods, and their delivery. This sounds like a specialty store that specializes in many goods and services. "General store" is not descriptive of the products and services it sells.

The essential meaning of a word, what is foremost in the mind of the average educated user (or AEU, my term for the traditional "native speaker") who knows the word, may be said to be descriptive of it. This is not always the first meaning given in a dictionary. It may be the first in origin if that is how a particular dictionary is organized, as historical dictionaries are (OED, Webster's Third and derivatives, etc.), not the first in actual use, which is the commonest acceptation of a word in the speech community. This meaning is based on the consensus of the people who use the language, whose representative is the AEU.

Thus, for the word "store," the first meaning given in the Concise Oxford, 2002 (and Webster's Collegiate, 2003, etc.) namely, "a quantity or supply kept for use as needed" (COD, store, n. 1), in a word, "reserve" or "stock," arose in the late 15th century. There are 10 of these older meanings in the OED, some labelled rare or obsolete.

In current North American English, however, a store, also called "shop," is "a place where things are kept for future use or sale" (COD, n. 2). This meaning arose in North America in the early 18th century. This, in my opinion, is the essential meaning of "store," the one that is most easily recognized by the AEU, hence given as No. 1 by dictionaries such as American Heritage (which follow a different drummer than Webster's Third). The definition of this meaning may be said to be "descriptive" of the word in trademark usage.

I would appreciate your learned comments.

TOM PAIKEDAY

www.paikeday.net


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Sep  1 12:55:22 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:55:22 -0400
Subject: Fw:      STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.085522.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAUTION: The registered trademark symbol, superscript R inside a circle, is
shown as "=AE" for some technical reason in the following posting I
received. If you have the same problem, please understand. Thanks.

t.m.p.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas M. Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Thomas M. Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA>
> Subject:      STORE1 vs. STORE2
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Here's something that may interest linguists (Ron Butters, Bethany =
> Dumas, Roger Shuy, and others) who are into trademark consultancy:
>
> 1. The Beer Store=AE is essentially a place where beer is stored. But =
> its wares (as declared in its application for registration as a =
> trademark) are clothing, promotional items, and novelty wares. Its =
> services are the operation of retail stores and sale of alcoholic =
> beverages, especially beer. These, in my opinion, are accidental =
> features (based on the philosophical distinction between "substance" and =
> "accident"). "Beer store," therefore, is not "descriptive" (in trademark =
> usage) of its goods and services.
>
> 2. The Corner Store=AE is essentially a store at a corner, but its =
> declared wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components =
> for forming mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not =
> descriptive of the products it sells.
>
> 3. The General Store=AE is essentially a store of general merchandise, =
> but its declared wares are computer software, catalogues, household =
> electronic appliances, and stationery. It also sells travel services, =
> catalogue marketing of consumer goods, and their delivery. This sounds =
> like a specialty store that specializes in many goods and services. =
> "General store" is not descriptive of the products and services it =
> sells.
>
> The essential meaning of a word, what is foremost in the mind of the =
> average educated user (or AEU, my term for the traditional "native =
> speaker") who knows the word, may be said to be descriptive of it. This =
> is not always the first meaning given in a dictionary. It may be the =
> first in origin if that is how a particular dictionary is organized, as =
> historical dictionaries are (OED, Webster's Third and derivatives, =
> etc.), not the first in actual use, which is the commonest acceptation =
> of a word in the speech community. This meaning is based on the =
> consensus of the people who use the language, whose representative is =
> the AEU.
>
> Thus, for the word "store," the first meaning given in the Concise =
> Oxford, 2002 (and Webster's Collegiate, 2003, etc.) namely, "a quantity =
> or supply kept for use as needed" (COD, store, n. 1), in a word, =
> "reserve" or "stock," arose in the late 15th century. There are 10 of =
> these older meanings in the OED, some labelled rare or obsolete.
>
> In current North American English, however, a store, also called "shop," =
> is "a place where things are kept for future use or sale" (COD, n. 2). =
> This meaning arose in North America in the early 18th century. This, in =
> my opinion, is the essential meaning of "store," the one that is most =
> easily recognized by the AEU, hence given as No. 1 by dictionaries such =
> as American Heritage (which follow a different drummer than Webster's =
> Third). The definition of this meaning may be said to be "descriptive" =
> of the word in trademark usage.
>
> I would appreciate your learned comments.
>
> TOM PAIKEDAY
>
> www.paikeday.net


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Sep  1 14:37:48 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:37:48 -0400
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
In-Reply-To: <010401c37085$e7a1ae80$eb726395@thomaspaikeday>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.103748.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thomas M. Paikeday writes:
2. The Corner Store® is essentially a store at a corner, but its declared
wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components for forming
mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not descriptive of
the products it sells.
 ~~~~~~~
It looks to me as if  "Corner store" IS descriptive of the products
offered, if "components for forming mitreless joints" is the overall
category.
A. Murie


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 16:43:11 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:43:11 EDT
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.124311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a speculation on the origin of pooch=dog which the OED lists as
unknown.  The 1912  evidence Barry has just uncovered is just a decade after the
first dialect evidence of the noun and verb pooch meaning 'pouch' or "to bulge
out".   The hypothesis I'm proposing is based on the first nominal citation in
DARE from Maine 1904, an insulting reference to someone as "old pooch-mouth"
and later in 1908 describing a politician as "a pooch-mouthed blabber". Later in
MD 1942 there is the variant pooch-jawed 'jaws protruding at the sides'.
   To me this conjures up the image of a jowly individual, and what other
creature comes to mind when we think of jowls?  Dogs.  So maybe the phrase
"pooch-mouth" was used at first to refer to a person with jowls, and later was
reinterpreted by others to mean someone who looked like a dog, and then the
equation pooch=dog was made.
       It's also interesing that the first cites are in ME, when this looks
like a Scots word,or Scots-Irish, now mostly Southern.  The old Middle English
pooch for pouch is still used in parts of Scotland I believe.   Maybe these
Maine cites actually meant "dog-mouthed" to the author at that time?

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Sep  1 16:45:41 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:45:41 -0400
Subject: Mullet(haircut) revisited.
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.124541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I take the Straight Dope poster as describing the haircut itself, which may not necessarily have been known as a "mullet" at that time.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Clements [mailto:sclements at NEO.RR.COM]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Mullet(haircut) revisited.


If there has been a cite prior to the OED 1994 Beastie Boys, I couldn't find
it.

A poster at the Straight Dope offered this post:

   "First I remember seeing it here in north Texas was about 79-80, often
bleached white and associated with button covered members only jackets,
white dress shirts and thin black leather ties.

Totally newwave fer shur dude!"

I'm not really supposed to post that as a quote.  But knowing the SD, they
want to get the real info.

The poster struck me as more reliable than many.  I would take this at face
value.

All I meant to do by posting was to give a clue to a researcher who might
still be trying to antedate the phrase beyond 1994.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 01:38:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:38:30 EDT
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.213830.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  SAVE DAVID SHULMAN'S LIFE, GET FIRED FROM YOUR JOB

   David Shulman (a longtime ADS member, now 90) had a heart attack about a
year ago, and the person on duty at his home saved his life.  He told me that
he was lucky it happened when it did; most of the staff at his home are
incompetent.  On anyone else's shift, and he'd be dead.  He told me that she should
be given something.
   I paid for an inexpensive piece of jewelry, which we gave her at the
monthly birthday party for residents.  We also gave her a small check, for about
$100.  She said that she agreed with David that most of the staff are
incompetent, and he'd be dead with anyone else.  She said that the staff was
jealous/resentful of her.
   Shulman told me today that the staff is not supposed to receive tips.  I
don't know the precise rules; I don't live there and I'm not related to anyone
who does.    Whatever she received from me/us was nominal and not more than
$500.
   This week, she was fired.

FYI:  Her name is Saida Dakhloui.  It is the St. Nicholas Home on Ovington
Avenue, (718) 238-8141.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF

   I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.
   It's been a great summer.  It started off in May, when I e-mailed the
Chicago Public Library to change its web site about "the Windy City."  Everyone
gets a response within a week--I get nothing all summer, or ever.  Tomorrow
(Tuesday) will probably be another no air, 11-hour parking ticket work day.  This
never ends.

NO SWEAT--I had found the earliest citation for this, from the Korean War in
1951 or 1952.  It was in a book at the NYU library.  I could look again if
necessary.

CARLSON DIDN"T COIN THE PHRASE IN THE 1990s--Richard Carlson got rich from
the phrase, but he didn't even coin it.  It appears earlier here:

Brief Description:  <A HREF="http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SEQ=20030901212330&PID=1801&SA=Mantell,+Michael+R.,+1949-">Mantell, Michael R., 1949-</A>
Don't sweat the small stuff : P.S., it's all small stuff / Michael R.
Mantell.
San Luis Obispo, Calif. : Impact Publishers, c1988.
228 p. ; 21 cm.

ARMY TIMES 1950s CARTOONS--ARMY TIMES    in the late-1950s had one cartoon
called "No Sweat" and another cartoon called "Small Stuff."  These ran in every
issue.  While I didn't see the phrase "Don't sweat the small stuff," it's not
difficult to imagine that someone said it in the 1950s or 1960s.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep  2 01:53:28 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:53:28 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.215328.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It looks like "Don't sweat the small stuff" may have been originated by cardiologist Dr. Robert Eliot.  ("Don't sweat . . .," of course, is older.)  From the 7/31/83 Omaha World-Herald:

        >>And recently Time Magazine devoted its cover story to the subject
of stress. It starts with words of wisdom from Dr. Robert Eliot,
University of Nebraska Medical Center cardiologist and expert on
coping with stress: ""Rule No. l is don't sweat the small stuff; Rule
No. 2 is, it's all small stuff. And if you can't fight and you can't
flee, flow."<<

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 02:20:06 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:20:06 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
In-Reply-To: <1d9.101d96a9.2c854e96@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.222006.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:

> DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF
>
>    I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
> all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.

I have just found my copy of your posting on this.  So please don't spend
any time looking for it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 02:37:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:37:52 EDT
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff/No Sweat
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.223752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't remember if I quoted Dr. Robert Eliot or not for DSTSS.
   OED has 1955's AMERICAN SPEECH for "no sweat."
   "No Sweat" might have been found in the NYU book titles below, which I can
re-check if desired.  I seem to recall it in KOREAN TALES:


Voorhees, Melvin B.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=14&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=14&entitycurrecno=14">Korean tales.</A>
New York, Simon and Schuster, 1952.
209 p. illus. 22 cm.


Geer, Andrew Clare.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=19&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=19&entitycurrecno=19">The new breed.</A>
[1st ed.]
New York, Harper [1952]
395 p.



Chung-kuo hung shih tzu hui.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=231&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=231&entitycurrecno=231">Out of their own mouths : revelations and confessions written by American
soldiers of torture, rape, arson, looting, and cold-blooded murder of defenceless
civilians and prisoners of war in Korea.</A>
Peking : Red Cross Society of China, 1952.
50 p. : ills. ; 18 cm.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 02:32:23 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:32:23 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <144.181f4b70.2c84d11f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.223223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's a speculation on the origin of pooch=dog which the OED lists as
>unknown.  The 1912  evidence Barry has just uncovered is just a decade
>after the
>first dialect evidence of the noun and verb pooch meaning 'pouch' or "to bulge
>out".

"Pooch" and "pouch" are the same word in this sense, I think. "Pooch" is
the sound which "pouch" has in some dialects and particularly in Scots
(where /putS/ is written both "pouch" and "pooch"). "Pooch out" is exactly
"pouch out" and many derivatives have both forms, with "pouch-mouth[ed]"
for example appearing in the Century Dictionary (1889) and "pouch-mouth"
described as "old" in Farmer and Henley (1902). I don't think there's any
doubt that the "pooch" in "pooch out" etc. is "pouch". The question is
whence the OTHER (?) "pooch" meaning "dog".

Partridge derives "pooch" from a German pet name for a dog "Putzi",
presumably related to "putzig" = "tidy" or so.

A derivation from "pooch" = "pouch" would be more natural, surely ... but
why would a dog be called a pouch?

To the extent that "pooch" is more specific than "dog" it tends to mean not
"jowly dog" but "small dog" or "worthless dog" (in Mathews for example).
Perhaps one can picture a lapdog, small and nonproductive, a mere pet (not
a working dog).

One interesting point is that "pouch" (i.e., "pooch" /putS/) is/was a
standard word for "pocket" in 19th century Scots (also once in English, I
think). [It even has senses like "money" derived from "pocket", and to
pouch something is to put it in one's pocket.] Now one possibility is that
"pouch dog" was "pocket dog" in Scots: i.e., either a small dog or one
which is a mere pocket accessory (not a working dog). I think this is the
most natural derivation. Attributive "pocket" can be applied to anything
small (e.g., "pocket Hercules" = "small strong man", "pocket battleship" =
"small battleship").

If "pouch dog" was pronounced "pooch[ie] dog" (opaque Scots pronunciation)
it would be natural for the expression to be reanalyzed with "pooch[ie]" =
"dog[gy]" as a reduplication like "kittycat", I think.

But was there a fixed expression like "pouch dog"? I would be inclined to
think that there probably was, IF there was "pocket dog" ("pouch dog" would
be the Scots version). Was there "pocket dog" in the 19th century? I don't
know, but there is today ... although I don't see it in my dictionaries at
a glance. Google for "a pocket dog" and you will find the expression used
repeatedly in the appropriate context, at least in some cases something
like "lapdog" ... in its figurative sense too! For example:

----------

<<They supply you with the best of all worlds, the size of a pocket dog,
the beauty and grace of any "high fashion" breed, the energy and ability of
a large dog ....>>

<<He had a gentle beard, which Laura would fondle like a small pet, a
pocket dog ....>>

<<Good thing the prime minister Chrétien stoped [sic] being a pocket dog
for the US and said Canada won't get involved in this ....>>

----------

If this hypothesis has any merit, one would like to find "pocket dog",
"pouch dog", and/or "pooch[y] dog" attested in the 19th century.

-- Doug Wilson


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep  2 02:46:55 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:46:55 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309012218200.4921-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.224655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 10:20:06PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:
>
> > DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF
> >
> >    I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
> > all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.
>
> I have just found my copy of your posting on this.  So please don't spend
> any time looking for it.

Congratulations.

So you plan to let the rest of us know what it is? Now that the
archive is more stable, it would be nice to have it there.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 03:00:31 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:00:31 -0400
Subject: Pooch (1877) (??)
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.230031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From MoA (Michigan):

James Fowler Rusling, _The Great West and Pacific Coast_ (1877): pp. 268-9:
describing Chinese in Portland, Oregon:

<<Here at Portland, John Chinaman turned up again, and seemed to be
behaving thoroughly well. .... In walking about the town, we occasionally
came upon their signs, over the door of some humble dwelling, as for
example, "Ling & Ching, Laundry;" "Hop Kee, washing and ironing;" "Ching
Wing, shoemaker;" " Chow Pooch, doctor;" etc.>>

The Chinese names are perhaps fanciful syllables, but all of them except
"Pooch" are possible Chinese names (Cantonese), I think. "Pooch" however is
not a reasonable way to write any syllable in any major Chinese dialect AFAIK.

I speculate that "Chow Pooch" is a deliberate joke, with "Chow" = "chow" =
"chow chow", either in the sense "[Chinese] food"/"eat" or naming a breed
of dogs (both senses were known by 1877), and with "pooch" = "dog": either
the joke is innocent with "Chow Pooch" = "chow dog" or it is a sly
reference to the Chinese use of dogs as food animals with "Chow Pooch" =
"eat dog".

But I can't be absolutely sure!

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 03:40:59 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:40:59 -0700
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <200309020246.h822kr710120@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.204059.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may be a red herring (or red harrier?), but Pucci is a popular
dog's name in Italy -- a google search of 'pucci' and 'cane' turns up
a number of hits like the ones below. I have no way of knowing
whether this was originally an anglicism derived from 'pooch' or
whether it was in wide use a hundred years ago.

Geoff Nunberg

Un altro cane proprio no!
Pucci è anziano, come me...
forse presto se ne andrà,
ed io chissà!!

In giardino c¹è posto per il mio cane "Pucci"...

...poi si pente un pò di essere sgarbatino e mi fa: "però me ne frega
di Pucci" che sarebbe il mio cane.

E' una storia che risale agli anni '60, quando Pucci, un cane
abbandonato dai padroni, giunse a San Rocco di Camogli...

  ...Allora il mio si chiama Spike-pucci (come chiamo il mio cane...!)

La storia del nostro cane week end Pucci dal 1992-1998

  Poi però le stesse fanciulle afferrano le guanciotte un po' cascanti
del loro killer potenziale e pizzicandole dicono cose come: pucci
pucci, tesorino vuole tante coccole. E il povero cane alla fine non
sa più chi è, e vorrebbe andare in analisi.

Estate 2000, io nel cortile della mia casa a Gouta con il mio cane Pucci


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 05:57:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:57:33 EDT
Subject: Jamaica GLEANER; Cush-Cush (1833); Trinidad, Tobago Cuisine (1993)
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.015733.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  CARIBBEAN TRIPS
    
   I haven't done the Caribbean because the cruises are usually for older 
couples.  Also, there are plenty of Caribbean restaurants here in New York. I'm 
reading Norman Van Aken's NEW WORLD KITCHEN: LATIN AMERICAN AND CARIBBEAN 
CUISINE (2003), with a preface by Anthony Bourdain.  The cuisine is fast becoming 
"American food."
   I'll be in Guyana, French Guiana, and Suriname for ten days in November 
(the total is 90 countries now), and I'm looking for the Dominican Republic for 
Christmas/New Year's.
   Now, to research the cuisine...
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
JAMAICA GLEANER
  
   Here is the press release I previously wrote about:
 
   
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/news/display_news.aspx?ContentID=54
News:   
3/11/2003 12:00:00 AM   
NewspaperArchive.com to Put Entire History of the Jamaica Gleaner Online    
NewspaperArchive.com, the world’s first, largest and busiest website of 
fully-searchable historic newspapers, is proud to announce its latest contract with 
the Jamaica Gleaner.

The Gleaner, which boasts a Sunday circulation of 100,000, is the paper of 
record for the entire Caribbean region. Established in 1834, it has maintained a 
standard of journalistic excellence and in-depth reporting that set it among 
the flagship papers of the world. The Jamaica Gleaner is published seven days 
a week. Its headquarters are in Kingston, Jamaica with offices in London and 
Toronto.
  
  
   I'm counting on the GLEANER for Caribbean cuisine (Cuba, Puerto Rico) as 
well as Jamaican.     I'll give it some time before checking it.  Here's what's 
available so far:
  
1902, 1938, 1944, 1951, 1961, 1971, 1980, 1990, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000
  
   Only two years from 1834-1943...If anyone has a query, send it to me.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CUSH-CUSH
  
DOMESTIC MANNERS AND SOCIAL CONDITION OF THE WHITE, COLOURED, AND NEGRO 
POPULATION OF THE WEST INDIES
by Mrs. Carmichael
in two volumes
London: Whittaker, Treacher, and Co.
1833
New York: Negro Universities Press
1969
  
  
   OED has only one citation from this book ("tum-tum").  This book antedates 
"cush-cush," which OED has from 1871.  Volume One, Chapter VII, pp. 161+ 
discusses "Negro food."
   There's a nice mention of "tomata soup" that was missed by Andrew F. 
Smith's SOUPER TOMATOES (2000).
  
VOLUME ONE
Pg. 163:  The cush-cush yam is the smallest and most delicate.  They are a 
very farinaceous vegetable.  The tania is a root something of the size of a 
potatoe,...
  
Pg. 166:  The tomata comes to great perfection, (Pg. 164--ed.) and the 
negroes use a great deal of it in soup--they are worth about 2_d_. sterling per 
dozen.
    
Pg. 167:  The pigeon pea is an uncommonly nice vegetable; its cultivation is 
easy, and every estate is full of pigeon-pea bushes.
  
Pg. 167:  Calialou may be called the spinage of the West Indies; and is a 
favourite vegetable with white, coloured, and black.  From 1_d_. to 2_d_. will 
buy as much of it as is necessary for soup for four or five persons.  
Christophine is more properly a fruit, as it grows upon a vine; it is planted about 
November, by means of burying the bean, which is found inside the fruit.
  
Pg. 170:  The negroes are very found of the alligator pear, and generally cal
l it the zabaca pear.
    
Pg. 171:  There are several sorts of plum trees--the Jamaica, the hog plum, 
and varieties of the Java plum.
  
Pg. 179:  These streams abound in mullet, cary fish--resembling a small 
lobster, eels and mud fish.
  
Pg. 181:  The mess consists of green plantains, eddoes or yam, made into 
soup, with an abundance of creole peas or beans, or the eddoe leaf, the calialou, 
or perhaps a plant which grows indigenous, and particularly among the canes; 
it is known by the name weedy-weedy; I never could learn that there was any 
other appellation for it; it also nearly resembles spinach.
  
Pg. 182:  I never met with an European who did not relish all the different 
creole soups, or, as they are often called, "negro pot."
  
Pg. 183:  ...they often have tum-tum...
  
Pg. 184:  The dish is well known in the West Indies by the name of souse, and 
is a favourite with all.
  
Pg. 192:  At Christmas, Irish mess, beef, flour, or rice, sugar and rum are 
served out.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRINIDAD, TOBAGO CUISINE
  
CALLALOO, CALYPSO & CARNIVAL:
THE CUISINES OF TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
by Dave DeWitt and Mary Jane Wilan
Freedom, Ca: The Crossing Press
1993
  
Pg. 31:  Shadow Bennie Sauce
Pg. 37:  Mango Kucheela
Pg. 53:  Cowheel Soup
Pg. 70:  Shark-and-Bake
   This specialty, as served from roadside stands at Maracas Bay, is a kind 
of T&T version of fish-and-chips.
Pg. 73:  Buljol
   The name of this salad of shredded salted fish comes from the French 
_brule_, meaning burnt, and _geule_, slang for mouth.  Since the dish is served at 
room temperature, the burning is obviously the result of the Congo pepper.
Pg. 73:  Fried Flying Fish
   This dish is a specialty of Tobago, where it is commonly served at 
restaurants and at the hotels along the Courland Bay.
Pg. 76:  Aeeras
   These fritters, of West African origin, are popular throughout the West 
Indies and are called stamp-and-go in Jamaica.  In Africa they were usually made 
with black-eyed pea flour, but these days wheat flour is used.
Pg. 82:  Buss-Up-Shut and Roti Bread
   When any of the griddle breads are ripped apart for dipping into curries, 
they are called buss-up-shut, vernacular for "burst-up-shirt," because they 
resemble torn cloth.  When left whole, the breads are stuffed with curried meat, 
seafood, or vegetables and rolled up in the manner of a burrito.
Pg. 86:  Sahina
Pg. 92:  Toolum
Pg. 95:  Sewain
  
Pg. 104  GLOSSARY
Accra
Agouti
Allspice
Aloo
Amchar
Anchaar
Bacalao
Bake.  Native bread that is either fried or baked.
Balangen
Beigun
Bellyfull.  Any filling food.  Also, a type of dessert.
Black pudding
Bodi
Boucanee
Breadfruit
Buljol
Bun-bun.  Burned layer on bottom of _pelau_ pan.
Bush.  Anything green and leafy.
Bush meat
Buss-up-shut
Callaloo
Cascadura
Cassareep
Cassava
Chadon bene.  See Shadow Bennie.
Channa.  Chick-peas or garbanzo beans.
Chip-chip
Christophene
Chutney
Congo
Coo-coo.  Okra and cornmeal "bread."
Cush-cush.  Yam.
Dasheen
Dhal
Doubles.  Curried _channa_ served between two pieces of fried bread.
Figs.  Small bananas.
Floats.  Fried yeast bread.
Funity.  Bundle of soup ingredients, such as turnips, carrots, celery, and 
thyme.
Ground provisions
Hops bread.  Baked yeast bread.
Jeera
Jelly nut
Jumbie.  Zombie.
Pg. 105:
Kurma
Lambie.  COnch.
Lappe.  Rabbit.
Makaforshet.  Leftovers.
Manicou.  Opossum.
Masala
Mauby
Melongene.  Eggplant.
Ochro.  Okra.
Oil-down.
Pachro.  Sea urchin.
Pan.  Steel drum.
Passion fruit
Pawpaw.  Papaya.
Pelau
Phulouri.  Fried split-pea appetizer.
Pigeon pea
Piri piri.  Hot and spicy Portuguese pepper oil.
Plantain
Poncha crema.  Trinidadian eggnog.
Pumpkin
Quenk.  WIld pig; peccary.
Roocoo.  Achiote; annatto seeds.
Roti
Saheena.  Fritter made with ground _channa_ and _dasheen_ leaves.  Also 
spelled _sahina_.
Salt cod
Sancoche.  A filling T&T stew.
Sea moss
Sewain.  Vermicelli dessert popular at Muslim festivals.  Also spelled 
_sawine_.
Shaddock
Shadow Bennie.  Nickname for _chadon bene_, an aromatic her (_Eryngium 
foetidum_) used in sauces and stews.  The Spanish name is _culantro_; the Hindi name 
is _bandhania_.
Sorrel
Souse.  Popular Sunday breakfast dish made from pickled pork.
Talkaree.  Vegetables cooked down as an accompaniment to rice or roti.  Also 
spelled _talkari_.
Tamarind
Tannia
Taro
Tatoo.  Armadillo.
Tawa.  Large, flat griddle for cooking _roti_ breads.
Taza sale.  Salted kingfish.
Toolum.  Sticky candy made from molasses and grated coconut.  Also spelled 
_tulum_.
Tum-tum.  Mashed green plantain.
Yam


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 10:32:23 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:32:23 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff
In-Reply-To: <20030902024655.GA3671@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.063223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> So you plan to let the rest of us know what it is? Now that the
> archive is more stable, it would be nice to have it there.

I found a hard copy rather than an electronic copy, so I'll have to
retype it.  Also please note that my printout apparently is just a portion
of the posting that I found relevant to my own needs, not the entire
posting:

<beginning of Popik posting excerpt>

  Richard Carlson has reaped thousands of dollars (if not millions) based
on this one phrase.  It's a small detail, but the phrase is not even his!
  In 1988, Mark Mantell (not to be confused with our Dragonsystems guy)
published DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF: P.S. IT'S ALL SMALL STUFF.  This
was made into an audio book in 1996 -- a year before Carlson's book came
out.
  Even the joke "Don't sweat the petty things...and don't pet the sweaty
things" dates two years before Carlson's book.
  A ProQuest check (ProQuest 2.1 will come out in a day) shows the quote
used in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 10 July 1988, and in FAMILY CIRCLE, 14
March 1989--a great many years before Carlson's book.
  A DejaNews check showed this posting before 4-22-95:

Two-step plan for handling stress:
Step 1:  Don't sweat the small stuff.
Step 2:  Remember that it's all small stuff.
--Anthony Robbins.

  Other DejaNews resulst show this is given as "Rule 1" and "Rule 2."
Anthony Robbins may have said it, but it predates Robbins.
  A WorldCat check shows the phrase goes back quite a bit:

DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF: ESTABLISHING THE NEED FOR GOOD NEWS (1980) by
Marvin Phillips, a cassette tape by the Garnett Church of Christ.
DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF (1973) by Marie Frost, illutrations by Joyce
Thimsen, from Key Publishers (Christian life).

  I remember it as "don't sweat the details."  That meant "don't let
something small trip up something large."  It was not followed with "it's
all small stuff."
  A song called "Don't sweat the techniaue" was recorded in 1992 by Eric
B. and Rakim.  "Don't sweat the details" might be a little harder to find,
unfortunately.
  Perhaps a better, more realistic quote is:

"No sweat, no sweet."
--Samuel Smiles, SELF HELP, pg. 305 (1859).

<end of Popik posting excerpt>


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 17:08:48 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:08:48 EDT
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.130848.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the 1970's near where I lived there was a large emporium entitled "The
Door Store".  (I strongly suspect it was part of a chain.)  For years I never
bothered going there, being under the impression it sold only doors.  (It was in
fact less than a block away from a major Home Depot/Lowe's type store that I
frequently went to.)

Finally someone tipped me off that the Door Store was actually a furniture
place, so I went there.  Yes, it did have a few prefab door assemblies on sale,
but the stock was mostly furniture, and I purchased a pair of six-foot-tall
bookcases that I still  use a quarter-century later.  They were lucky that their
overly cute name did not cost them me as a customer.

              - James A. Landau


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 18:23:40 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:23:40 -0700
Subject: prune plums
In-Reply-To: <000701c36ff0$0bd071b0$0fb89b3f@chaos>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.112340.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What people on the list are calling "prune plums" are what I know as
"Italian prunes" (not plums).  That's also what they're called in stores,
here and elsewhere to the best of my recollection.  That's what are called
Zwetschgen in German.  A little later in the season another kind
appears--they're the same shape but bigger than the Italian prunes, and I
forget what they're called.

I always figured that the difference between plums and prunes was that
plums were clingstone and prunes were freestone.  The only thing I have to
go by is that everything labeled "plum" that I have happened to buy in a
store seems to have been clingstone, and everything labeled "prune"
(including dried prunes, Italian prunes and this what's-its-name prune that
I can't remember) seems to have been freestone.  Also, most plums seem to
have sour skin and prunes have sweet skin, but I assume that's secondary.

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:45 PM -0400 David Bergdahl
<einstein at FROGNET.NET> wrote:

> Prune plums in German are zwetschgen from which an open-faced torte
> called a zwetschgendatchi is made--delicious!!  Prune plums are
> longer--less round--similar in shape to roma tomatotes.  For a recipe
> google the name.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Sep  2 18:40:46 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:40:46 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.144046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?


Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
Just passing it along for information or amusement.


"ORIGIN OF 'POOCH' PROVES STUMPER" THE NEW YORK SUN, MAY 17, 1941

"When a reader recently asked the origin of the word 'pooch' as applied to
a dog, in appeared an easy question just because anything in such general
use should not be hard to trace. A consulting of the leading lexicons,
however, failed to produce an answer and Dr. Charles E. Funk, one of the
most widely recognized lexicographers, admits it has him stumped.
'It has come under the heading of criminal slang, most of which is gypsy in
origin,' he said. 'It would be my theory, but nothing more than a theory,
that there must be some old gypsy word on which it is based. The only word
'pooch' that appears in standard works is the Scotch variant for pouch, and
has no relation to a dog."

THE NEW YORK SUN, May 23,1941  LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

"Sir: In your issue of May 17 there was a letter in which it was admitted
that the word 'pooch' as applied to a dog could not be traced to a
legitimate origin. Several days ago I alluded to the dog of a retired
British Army officer as a 'pooch.' He was astonished and asked if I'd ever
been to India.
'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. I'm astonished to hear it here!'
I told him that I got it out of the 'funnies,' where it was used by the
late T.A. Dorgan, unless I am mistaken." V.E. Scott.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep  2 19:23:36 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:23:36 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.152336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen Miller asks:

> First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>

The NYPL has the morgue kept by the Sun.  This includes clippings both from the Sun and from some other newspapers, filed mostly or entirely under the names of people mentioned.  It extends back at least to the early 20th C.  The last time I consulted it, several years ago, it seemed that there was only one person in the library who knew how to find stuff in it, and that was a guy named Burke, if I recall, who worked in the Map Division.

I don't know of a database.

For those of you who don't know this paper: it isn't the thing currently being published, nor at all ancestral to it, though the present paper has taken over the old Sun's masthead and motto.  The original Sun was the first newspaper in NYC to be sold on the streets, for a penny, in 1833.  All other papers then were sold by subscription only, for home delivery, with a nominal price of 6 cents, but an actual cost of $10/year.  The success of the Sun prompted the founding of the Herald, the NY Tribune and the NY Times and others.  It was a particularly influential paper in the late 19th C, when it was edited by Charles Henry Dana.  The Sun lasted until 1950, when it merged with the World Telegram to form the World Telegram and Sun.

For those of you who live in NYC or may visit it:  There is a large marble building on Broadway at the corner of Chamber street, just north of City Hall.  This was once the first department store, "A. T. Stewart's Marble Palace".  After he moved his store uptown, the building was taken over by The Sun, and the large clocks at the corners of the building are relicts of the Sun: notice the motto "The Sun.  It Shines for All."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:05:07 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:05:07 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <200309021837.h82IbEI01753@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.160507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?

No, it's not, unfortunately.

> Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.

Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
anyone else do this (before you did).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  2 18:22:00 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:22:00 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309021601030.3278-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.142200.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to butt in, but perhaps I should mention that "antedate" is the
term most frequently used at Merriam.  I tend to lean towards
"antedating" myself, probably because of all those years in grad
school soaking up academic and OED conventions, and for that
reason I often find myself in something of a moral quandary over
which term to use -- the "proper" and accepted one, or the one
used by those language libertines in Springfield who happen to pay
my salary.  I actually end up using both, justifying the
inconsistency within my conscience as an exercise in the fine old
art of elegant variation.  Others, I suppose, might regard it as trying
to please too many  people at once.  I admit that it's a bad habit of
mine.

Joanne



On 2 Sep 2003, at 16:05, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> > First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>
> No, it's not, unfortunately.
>
> > Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
>
> Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
> pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
> Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
> anyone else do this (before you did).
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:35:55 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:35:55 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902142139.00b41390@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.163555.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:40 PM -0400 9/2/03, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>THE NEW YORK SUN, May 23,1941  LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
>
>"Sir: In your issue of May 17 there was a letter in which it was admitted
>that the word 'pooch' as applied to a dog could not be traced to a
>legitimate origin. Several days ago I alluded to the dog of a retired
>British Army officer as a 'pooch.' He was astonished and asked if I'd ever
>been to India.
>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. I'm astonished to hear it here!'
>I told him that I got it out of the 'funnies,' where it was used by the
>late T.A. Dorgan, unless I am mistaken." V.E. Scott.

Whence "hot pooch" (because TAD couldn't spell "dachshund"), and the
rest is history...

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:40:05 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:40:05 -0400
Subject: Honest Abe the Slangster
In-Reply-To: <b04180b04d1c.b04d1cb04180@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.164005.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Historical Dictionary of American Slang has a first use of 1942
for "ass-backwards" and of 1932 for "bass-ackwards."

However, the Abraham Lincoln Association has an undated document
printed in _The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln_ VIII. 420, which
begins as follows:

He said he was riding _bass-ackwards_ on a _jass-ack_, through a
_patton-cotch_, on a pair of _baddle-sags_, [etc.]

The _Collected Works_ identifies this as "a 'piece' which Lincoln worte
and gave to the bailiff of one of the Springfield courts."  The
_Collected Works_ is the standard edition of Lincoln's writings, and is
quite scholarly and careful about what it accepts as authentic
Lincolniana.  It lists thousands of documents that it rejects as
inauthentic.  This one is listed with the authentic documents, so it
should be regarded as by Lincoln and dated as "a1865" and the usage
of "ass-backwards" is a major antedating.

Fred Shapiro


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:58:00 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:58:00 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309021601030.3278-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.165800.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
>>  First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>
>No, it's not, unfortunately.
>
>>  Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
>
>Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
>pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
>Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
>anyone else do this (before you did).
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
I confess I use it too, but then I'm partial to zero-formations.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 22:07:42 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:07:42 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902142139.00b41390@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.180742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'

I don't think so.

-- Doug Wilson


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Tue Sep  2 22:16:31 2003
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:16:31 -0500
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.171631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oy

"dog" in Hindi and in Urdu is kutta (short /u/ (vowels have length),
double dental (not retroflex) /t/. I don't have access to devanagari or
perso-arabic script on this email system.

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


>>> douglas at NB.NET 9/2/2003 5:07:42 PM >>>
>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'

I don't think so.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 22:25:44 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:25:44 -0700
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030902175631.04c76a50@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.152544.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 03:07 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:

>> 'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'
>
> I don't think so.

  nor do i, though it would be nice to hear from a hindi/urdu speaker.

the sanskrit root is /shun/ (where "sh" represents a palatal
fricative), cognate
with latin /kan/, as in "canis".

arnold, whose most beloved dog was a female named Shvani
   (literally 'bitch, female dog'), who overlapped the cats named Koshka
   (russian) and Kurniaou (estonian)


From ziporah at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Sep  2 23:03:44 2003
From: ziporah at EARTHLINK.NET (ziporah)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:03:44 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.190344.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry I don't know how to do it the right way. Could you unsuscribe me, please? afl



> -------------------


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Wed Sep  3 01:40:01 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:40:01 -0500
Subject: nicotini
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.204001.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From USA Today's state news snippets: "FLORIDA: Fort Lauderdale -- a
new drink called the nicotini has emerged in the city's nightlife
district since restaurants were forced to ban smoking. The
tobacco-spiked martinis are being served to smokers who don't want to go
outside to light up."

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 01:43:32 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:43:32 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20nicotini?=
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.214332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the heads-up! That's one drink I can do without.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 02:21:06 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:21:06 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20nicotini?=
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.222106.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, my previous was a mis-posting. - Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep  3 02:21:16 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:21:16 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <3F54A788.11495.244BC11D@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.222116.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

> Not to butt in, but perhaps I should mention that "antedate" is the
> term most frequently used at Merriam.  I tend to lean towards
> "antedating" myself, probably because of all those years in grad

OK, I stand corrected.  "Antedating" is the term in the OED/Notes and
Queries/American Speech tradition, which is where all the antedating took
place; but I guess now we have Merriam-Webster and Barry Popik in the
antedating biz, and I shouldn't begrudge them the choice of whatever term
they like to describe their efforts.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep  3 07:03:10 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 03:03:10 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030901214630.04c6a240@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.030310.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>If this hypothesis has any merit, one would like to find "pocket dog",
>"pouch dog", and/or "pooch[y] dog" attested in the 19th century.

Here's a start: "pocket dog" from 1914 ... "sleeve dog" too [the Chinese
version?] ... now I need the Scots version "pouch dog" ... and a little
earlier ....

Rex Beach, _The Auction Block_ (from Proj. Gutenberg): Ch. 20:

<<At a fashionable up-town kennel he found exactly what he wanted, in the
shape of a Pekingese -- a playful, pedigreed pocket dog scarcely larger
than his two fists. It was a creature to excite the admiration of any
woman; its family tree was taller than that of a Spanish nobleman, and its
name was Ying. But here again Bob was handicapped by poverty, for sleeve
dogs are expensive novelties, and the price of Ying was seven hundred
dollars--marked down from one thousand, and evidently the bargain of a
lifetime at that price.>>

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep  3 16:52:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:58 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Robot"
In-Reply-To: <200308311934.h7VJYbI22462@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.125258.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED's first use for the word "robot" is dated 1923.  Here is an
antedating:

1922 _N.Y. Times_ 13 Aug. 78  According to the Czechoslovaks -- "R.U.R."
is a Czechoslovak play -- the piece departs from many dramatic traditions.
The author is Karel Capek, and the full title is "Rosum's Universal
Robots."

The OED's etymology should probably be revised, since it refers to Karel
Capek's play "R.U.R." (1920), but not to the earlier Czech usage of
"robot" mentioned by Allan Metcalf in his book _The World In So Many
Words_: Josef Capek's short story "Opilec" (1917).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep  3 19:50:11 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:50:11 -0400
Subject: Seroco, acronym (1902)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c369a9$b14403c0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.155011.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Aug 23, 2003 at 03:06:42PM -0400, Dave Wilton wrote:
> I found the following citation for the trade name "Seroco", an acronym for
> Sears, Roebuck, & Company in a 1902 Washington Post classified ad. To my
> knowledge, it's the earliest instance of an acronymic origin for a word.
> Beats "ANZAC" by some 13 years.

I think you'll find _Nabisco_ from the same era, or slightly
earlier (1898 is the date that sticks in mind, but I'm too
lazy to look it up).

Richard Bailey cites an example of _colinda_ for the _Colonial
and Indian Exhibition_ in 1886 in his book _Nineteenth-Century
English._

Best

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 22:35:53 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:35:53 EDT
Subject: Parm (1974. from Parmigiana)
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.183553.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for "parm" as short for "parmigiana", as in
"veal parm". Earliest I could find in the Times was '77,
though I admit I didn't read through the earlier real-estate
ads.
--e-mail request

   The citations below are from Ancestry.com.  I browsed through the Los
Angeles Public Library menus, but didn't find anything.  The best bet would be to
check pizza shop menus from the 1970s, but I threw all of those away in the
1970s.  I could check Arthur Schwartz's menu collection at a local university
library, but that takes too much time.
   OT:  My area's phone service was out for about 24 hours.  Yeah, another
thing.  What a horrible summer, and it's not over yet.



   10 April 1974, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg.4, col. 2:
BANQUET FROZEN
BUFFET DINNERS
Sliced Turkey & Gravy, Beef Stew, Veal Parm.,
Chicken & Dumpling or Salisbury Steak

   9 November 1974, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysbury, PA), pg. 4, col. 3:
LUCA'S PIZZA
DINNER:  Lasagna . Ravioli . Calzoni . Egg Plant
   Parm. . Veal and Pepper . Veal Cutlet Parm.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 07:55:49 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 03:55:49 EDT
Subject: Donal Davidson's "triangulation," "anomalous monism"
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.035549.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK TIMES:


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/obituaries/04DAVI.html
Donald Davidson, 86, Philosopher With Linguistic Focus, Dies
By DOUGLAS MARTIN
Donald H. Davidson, a philosopher whose complex but penetrating insights into
topics like linguistic analysis and the nature of truth influenced a
generation of thinkers, died on Aug. 31 in Berkeley, Calif. He was 86.
(...)
Dr. Davidson coined terms to express complex ideas. One was "triangulation."
The triangle is formed of the individual, all other people and the nonhuman
universe. Language and thought are created by the three interacting with each
other.

Another was "anomalous monism," the notion that mind and body are different
and that, contrary to much philosophical opinion, the mind cannot be reduced to
physical processes.


(OED has "triangulation" from 1818, and from 1940 in mathematics.  This
definition is not included.  OED does not have "anomalous monism"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 10:54:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:54:13 EDT
Subject: Rush Hour/Minute; Pizzed
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.065413.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RUSH HOUR/MINUTE

   This was on the Word Spy For "Rush Minute":

Backgrounder:
This phrase is a play on rush hour, a term that I would have guessed was
invented in the 1960s, or the 1950s at the earliest. Nope. Surprisingly, it
actually dates to the late 19th century. The Oxford English Dictionary supplies us
with the following citation from the October 8, 1898 edition of the Westminster
Gazette: "Trailer cars can be put on during the 'rush hours', mornings and
evenings."

It's possible that rush minute is older than I thought, as well. Linguist
Michael Quinion (see his excellent <A HREF="http://www.worldwidewords.org/">World Wide Words site</A>) passed the following
note along:


>
> This rather neat play on the better-known expression must have been
> independently invented by several people. I first heard it in 1971 from Colm
> Connolly, the presenter of a radio programme in Plymouth that I was producing, as a
> facetious comment on the smallness of some of the local communities. He
> probably picked it up from somebody in his home city of Dublin.


   I posted here several times on "rush hour."  I traced it to at least 1886.
 How could he possibly think "rush hour" is from the 1960s?   Why rely on a
moldy OED citation?
   Paul McFedries knows about the ADS.  He knows there are ADS-L archives.
Yet, he never checks them??
    I'll never get any respect.  It's always something this summer.  Either
the electricity goes out, or people overlook my work, or people make fun of me
while I'm doing eleven straight hours of parking tickets.  And it never ends.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PIZZED

   I like "pizzed," sort of a jazzy version of "pissed."  It perhaps should
be recorded in the slang dictionaries, along with "fvck."
    Google turns up hundreds of hits for "pizzed" along with this:

Did you mean: _pizza_


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 12:48:22 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:48:22 EDT
Subject: Parm (1974. from Parmigiana)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.084822.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IBM's "OS/360" operating system (now known as "MVS"), which was released
sometime in the middle 1960's, used "PARM" as the abbreviation for the word
"parameter".  Therefore well before 1974 there were thousands of IBM programmers who
were used to "parm", although I have no evidence that they were responsible
for the renaming of "veal parameter".

            James A. Landau
            systems engineer
            FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
            Atlantic City Int'l Airport   NJ   08405   USA


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Sep  4 19:18:29 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:18:29 -0400
Subject: slang use of "ransom"?
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.151829.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues, I have just spoken with Ken Ringle of the Washington Post. he
is interested in slang use of the word "random" as in "That certainly was
a random outfit."

Apparently teenagers in some areas (CA?) have been using the term as a
more-or-less value-neutral term for about 6 years. If you can provide
data or other information about this usage, please email Ken at
ringlek at washpost.com

(And you might copy ADS-L.)

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 23:50:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:50:01 EDT
Subject: Lord Woolton Pie & LONDON TIMES (1941)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.195001.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   26 April 1941, THE TIMES (London), pg. 2, col. D:
      _LORD WOOLTON PIE_
      _THE OFFICIAL RECIPE_
   In hotels and restaurants, no less than in communal canteens, many people
have tasted Lord Woolton pie and pronounced it good.  Like many other
economical dish, it can be described as wholesome fare.  It also meets the dietician's
requirements in certain vitamins.  The ingredients can be varied according to
the vegetables in season.  Here is the official recipe:--
   Take 1lb. each diced of potatoes, cauliflower, swedes, and carrots, three
or four springs onions--if possible, one teaspoonful of vegetable extract, and
one tablespponful of oatmeal.  Cook all together for 10 minutes with just
enough water to cover.  Stir occasionally to prevent the mixture from sticking.
Allow  to cool; put into a piedish, sprinkle with chopped parsley, and cover
with a crust of potato or wheatmeal pastry.  Bake in a moderate oven until the
pastry is nicely browned and serve hot with a brown gravy.


LONDON TIMES now to January 1839--
   For some reason, the TIMES (London) is no longer on the new Bobcat menu at
NYU.  George, did it just go away?
   I checked at the NYPL, and the database now reaches 1839.  (It had been
1861.)
   Unfortunately, it appears that "vegetarian" goes back only to 1 June 1848,
pg. 8, col. B.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep  5 03:18:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:18:14 -0400
Subject: antedating? of "pinch hitter" (1899)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.231814.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

After consulting with Barry, I decided to post what I incidentally found at
ancestry.com.  I was searching for something completely different.  But you
just have to read those old newspapers.

MW has 1915 for "pinch-hit" and 1912 for "pinch hitter"
OED is totally out of the running on this one.

Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY(the 1989 edition, ACCORDING to Barry) has 1907
for "pinch hit" and 1902 for "pinch hitter."  Perhaps his latest edition has
earlier.

The earliest ancestry.com has is 1899.

September 4, 1899.  FORT WAYNE NEWS(INDIANA).  The page number is cut off.

                              "SPORTING NOTES"
  Letcher continues to be the best "pinch hitter" in the team, or in the
league, for that matter.

(I'm not sure if that means he was a substitute batter or came through in a
pinch--sc)




     "


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 03:30:05 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:30:05 EDT
Subject: New word?  prosititots
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.233005.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We were talking today about the movie "Thirteen" (pretty difficult for a
parent to watch) and one of my students said that even since they were in junior
high the girls fashions have gotten out of hand with the heavy makeup and lots
of flesh showing, to which another student replied that where she's from in NJ
parents have started dressing their kids up in halter tops when they're
toddlers, and that she's heard these kids refered to as "prostitots".  Sounds like
a journalist's coinage...

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Sep  5 03:59:00 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:59:00 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <p05111b0fbb79b82bf2ec@[63.196.212.113]>
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.235900.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This may be a red herring (or red harrier?), but Pucci is a popular
>dog's name in Italy -- a google search of 'pucci' and 'cane' turns up
>a number of hits ....

Here's another possible red herring ... but interesting in view of the 1941
'Hindustani' attribution.

The Hindi word commonly written "poonch" = "tail" is used in a few places
on the Web as a dog name. E.g.:

http://www.geocities.com/lizandshar/poonchsadvice.html

(dog-to-dog advice column by Poonch)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20001223/windows/above.htm

(dog in India named Poonch = tail because it follows [its owner])

There is an aphorism about a dog's tail quoted on the Web with the spelling
"kutha ka poonch".

A Hindi-speaking acquaintance pronounces this "poonch" in a way which is
virtually indistinguishable from English "pooch" (to me).

[The word in devanagari is spelled /p/, /u/ ("long u"), /chh/ (aspirated
voiceless alv'pal.), with superscript nasal dot. (Pardon me, I'm not very
familiar with this script.)]

Relationship to "pooch" etymology? Maybe none. But then again ....

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 05:56:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:56:44 EDT
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.015644.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 75 Google hits for "Green Swizzle."    Wodehouse mentioned the
drink.  This particular swizzle, though famous, is not in the OED.


   2 February 1910, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 2:
_CARYPTON_
   The Green Swizzle of the West Indies; a combination of Rum, Lime Juice, &
c., that will please the palate of the most fastidious; a favorite drink for
afternoon teas and receptions.
   Per bottle, $1.50
To Kalon Wine Co.
615 14th St., N. W.


THE PATH PF THE CONQUISTADORES:
TRINIDAD AND VENEZUELAN GUIANA
by Lindon Bates, Jr.
Boston:  Houghton Mifflin Company
1912

Pg. 72:  We are introduced to the renowned "green swizzle"--a liquid whose
translucent tinge fills the bottom of the glass, the green shading gradually
into the dark red of bitters near the surface.  Gin, lime, and soda have entered
into its making, and the star-shaped swizzle-stick has been twirled within it.
 Its taste is unique; its action _suaviter in modo, fortiter in re_.
   Green swizzles have a marked effect on people's conversational ability.
Stevenson recounts stories of his start in the Indian Civil Service, under Sir
WIlliam Willcox,...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 06:59:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:59:52 EDT
Subject: Conkies (1943, `1944); Searching Ancestry Secrets
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.025952.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEARCHING ANCESTRY SECRETS

   It appears that www.newspaperarchive.com _does_ allow you to search for
phrases.  Use the "advanced search."
   Ancestry just has a first name & last name search, or a keyword search.
I've been getting wacky search results.  For example, first name "coined" and
last name "phrase" has over 1,000 hits.  First name "coined" and last name
"word" had 0 hits!
   Www.newspaperarchive.com lets you search for the exact phrase.  It's the
same database, but I'm not subscribed.  So I thought I'd search on that
database, then go to Ancestry to pull the citation.
   The thing just doesn't work well.  Say I get 100 results.  I see 1-10.
Then I request 11-20, and I still get 1-10.  I make a new search and the old
search is applied again.
   I've been going crazy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CONKIES

   Where is a good date for "conkies"?  OED doesn't seem to have the popular
West Indian food.
   These two NYPL cookbooks were interesting reads and the earliest cookbooks
I'm likely to find.


WAR TIME RECIPES
FOR USE IN THE WEST INDIES
compiled by Mrs. St. J. Hodson
(1943?)

Pg. 19:  CONKIES.  (Mrs. E. Haynes)
1 pt. Corn Meal
1 gill Milk
1 lb. Sugar (heavyweight)
Spice & Salt to taste
1 1/2 Pumpkin
1 dessertspoon each of Lard and
1 grated Cocoanut
Butter
2 beaten Eggs
   Mix all together and boil either in individual conkies wrapped in pieces
of plantain leaf or in a buttered bowl and turn out to serve.

Pg. (no page number):
(A chef is shown giving the "OK" sign--ed.)
_"Believe it or not"_
_RIPLEY'S DISH_
(...)
  "Only," explained the butler, "it isn't spelled as it sounds.  It is
R-I-P-P-L-I.  And it wasn't named for you, for it has been prepared for generations
in Switzerland."

(There are over 1,500 Google hits for "rippli."  Most are in German.  It is
not in the OED--ed.)


THE HOUSEKEEPER'S GUIDE
FOR BRITISH GUIANA AND THE WEST INDIES
Comprising a Collection of Creole and other Recipes.
PUBLISHER: "THE ARGOSY" CO., LTD.,
DEMERARA.
1944

INDEX.
"Coveeched"...59
Conquintay Coo-Coo...137
Foo-Foo...133

Pg. 49:
      CONKIES.
3 large ripe plantains
1 tablespoonful butter
1 tablespoonful lard
Sugar to taste
A little nutmeg
Powdered cinnamon
Some raw conquintay flour
A green plantain leaf
   Boil 3 large ripe plantains in salted water.  When cooked press fine with
a fork, add a tablespoonful of melted butter, the same of lard, sugar to
taste, a grate of nutmeg and some powdered cinnamon and thicken to a stiff paste
with raw conquintay flour.  Take a green plantain leaf (it must not be too old),
lay it on a warm stove to make it limp, take away the rib and tear the leaf
part in pieces large enough to hold a spoonful of the mixture and fold into
little parcels.  Tie up each securely with a string of the dry "shag" of the
plantain.  Have ready a pot with boiling water and drop the cookies in.  Let them
boil for about an hour.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 12:46:34 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:46:34 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20far=20out...?=
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.084634.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 8/9/03 9:38:16 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:


> "Everyone generalizes from a sample of one. At least, I do."
>         -- Steven K. Z. Brust
> 

Brust should have checked with me before publishing this conclusion.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Sep  5 14:46:59 2003
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:46:59 -0400
Subject: gets risen
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.104659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just heard on CNN:

... gets risen ...

(should have been) ... gets raised ....

When, if ever, should rise~raise confusions be recognized in desk
dictionaries of standard English?  Should such problems be noted in
learner's (non-native speaker) dictionaries?

Clearly, when native speakers in their sometimes "sloppy" use of the
language may mislead "new" speakers of English.  Am I being too
prescriptive?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From cceble at EMAIL.UNC.EDU  Fri Sep  5 15:15:45 2003
From: cceble at EMAIL.UNC.EDU (Connie Eble)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:15:45 -0400
Subject: New word?  prosititots
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.111545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Prostitots has been in use on college campuses for a couple of
semesters, at least, as well as sorostitutes (sorority+prostitues).
                                        Connie Eble


Dale Coye wrote:
>
> We were talking today about the movie "Thirteen" (pretty difficult for a
> parent to watch) and one of my students said that even since they were in junior
> high the girls fashions have gotten out of hand with the heavy makeup and lots
> of flesh showing, to which another student replied that where she's from in NJ
> parents have started dressing their kids up in halter tops when they're
> toddlers, and that she's heard these kids refered to as "prostitots".  Sounds like
> a journalist's coinage...
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ


From AHami93942 at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 17:15:35 2003
From: AHami93942 at AOL.COM (Anne Marie Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:15:35 -0400
Subject: pwn
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.131535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My husband is interested in the etymology of the word "pwn" used in online gaming to denote "ownership" of a person. A list of comments on that subject by PlanetSide members follows. Any additional ideas or evidence in support of the ideas presented below?

Thanks,

Anne Marie Hamilton-Brehm
Digital Library of Georgia

Original query:

Was wondering if someone could please bring me up to speed on what appears to be an important piece of jargonology, "pwn".
First, how do you pronounce it?

Second, what *exactly* does it mean? From context, it appears to be a particulary humiliating form of being "owned". And the latter appears to be a reference to slavery?

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.


Khalez
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 10:41 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teh prigin pf "pwn" cpmes frpm teh fact taht pn teh keybpardz teh keyz fpr 'p' iz right next tp 'o'.
After a while it simply became l33tz0r.


cynicalsaint
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 11:54 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to put it a bit more clearly:
to have "owned" someone is to basically kicked their ass. "pwned" is the same thing as "owned" but since the the p key is right by the o key people commonly typed the word "pwned" instead of "owned" as somewhere down the line it became "cool" to use "pwn" in place of "own"


BigJaun
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 01:06 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is evolving constantly.
I think "pwnt" is the most effective own that can be dealt.
level 65!!!

C0braC0mmander
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 01:33 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was always told that the "p" stood for PLAYER
thus,

If you were pwn'd you were "Player Owned"

a.k.a.

You showed such a lack of skill (or the other player showed so much skill) that you were that players b*tch.

Although this is a term I have never personally used, that's the way it was explaned to me after I was called that many, many times.


Gengoro
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-04-2003 10:40 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok guys Im gonna clear this up for everyone once and for all. I hear this question alot and noone ever seems to know the correct answer.
Today the word "Pwnd" is used when someone suffers a humiliating defeat. I.E. Pure + Ownage = Pwnage. BUT! This is not where the word originated.

Many people believe that pwned came from a sloppy typer who accidently hit the "p" key when trying to spell Own. (Being that the "p" is adjacent to the "o" key)

This is the true origin of PWNED! and it may dissapoint some of you.

PWN! is the sound that the nailgun makes in the old game Quake. and you would be considered a super newb if you ever died by it! I.E.

Nailgunuser08: "HAHAHA your ass got PWNED! Newb!"
NewbwhogotPwned: "SHUT UP PHAG!"

I hope this clarifys things for you people. The meaning is the same as people think, but not many know the true origin. now you know! Spread the knowledge!


DrizztTK421
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-04-2003 04:34 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're all wrong (execpt maybe the quake guy) it came from a WCII map in which if you lost it was supposed say "you got owned," but instead said "you got pwned"
BTW: this was a pretty popular map.


Mardicore
PlanetSide Member   posted 09-04-2003 08:58 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you gus are ghey

Merkwurdigliebe
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-05-2003 04:50 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget "pwnz0rd."


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Sep  5 22:13:29 2003
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:13:29 -0700
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.151329.0700.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Having lived in Trinidad for some time in the late 1960s we drank mostly rum
with whatever we could cut it with my guess is that a  "green swizzle" is a
drink designed for the tourist trade and not a drink which any native of the
island might drink if only because it would take too much time to do the
mixing.

Rum and 7Up fine, Rum and Coca Cola, Rum straight up, and even that most
disgusting of all drinks rum and coconut water OK  but I am not able to
remember any native Trinidadian who drank any mixed drink which included
such explicit instructions. We just took our rum straight or with the
minimum of mixes.

It is possible that the Brits who worked on the island as employees of oil
companies and who rarely left their compounds and tourists did drink such
complicated concoctions but believe me when I tell you that those of us who
lived outside such protected areas did not if only because we could not
afford to go to a bar which could afford to hire a bar tender who could mix
one for us. James, a Chinese bartender/owner with whom I became a close
friend in Gasparillo would just bring out a bottle of rum with something
like 7Up or a bottle of Carib beer and serve it to us. I do not think that
if anyone had asked James for a  "green swizzle" he would have known what
the hell they were asking him for any more than any other bar tender on the
island except perhaps for those who worked at the Trinidad Hilton.

Us natives and as an antropologist I lived outside the compounds I  have
some credentials on the subject ate and drank all too much on occasion but
believe me that until this thread I had never heard of a  "green swizzle".

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:56 PM
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Green Swizzle (1910)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>    There are 75 Google hits for "Green Swizzle."    Wodehouse mentioned
the
> drink.  This particular swizzle, though famous, is not in the OED.
>
>
>    2 February 1910, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 2:
> _CARYPTON_
>    The Green Swizzle of the West Indies; a combination of Rum, Lime Juice,
&
> c., that will please the palate of the most fastidious; a favorite drink
for
> afternoon teas and receptions.
>    Per bottle, $1.50
> To Kalon Wine Co.
> 615 14th St., N. W.
>
>
> THE PATH PF THE CONQUISTADORES:
> TRINIDAD AND VENEZUELAN GUIANA
> by Lindon Bates, Jr.
> Boston:  Houghton Mifflin Company
> 1912
>
> Pg. 72:  We are introduced to the renowned "green swizzle"--a liquid whose
> translucent tinge fills the bottom of the glass, the green shading
gradually
> into the dark red of bitters near the surface.  Gin, lime, and soda have
entered
> into its making, and the star-shaped swizzle-stick has been twirled within
it.
>  Its taste is unique; its action _suaviter in modo, fortiter in re_.
>    Green swizzles have a marked effect on people's conversational ability.
> Stevenson recounts stories of his start in the Indian Civil Service, under
Sir
> WIlliam Willcox,...


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Sep  5 19:53:52 2003
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:53:52 -0500
Subject: chair search announcement
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.145352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Chair
Lewis Department of Humanities, Illinois Institute of Technology,
Chicago, seeks a teacher-scholar in a humanistic discipline. The
ideal candidate will have administrative experience demonstrating the
ability to lead and take advantage of emerging opportunities. We are
especially interested in candidates whose research and teaching
complement the department's current strengths in the humanistic study
of science, technology, architecture, and the city.

IIT is a mid-sized, private, PhD-granting university with an
international student body. IIT is known for its research and
education in engineering, science, architecture, law, design,
computer science, psychology and business.

The humanities department offers a BS degree in Humanities as well as
BS, MS and PhD degrees in technical communication and information
architecture. It also offers undergraduate general education courses
in history, art and architectural history, philosophy, literature,
language, and communication.

To be filled at the level of full professor. Salary: competitive.
Reviews begin in late October and continue until the position is
filled.

Please send letter of interest and cv as attachments to
segerst at iit.edu or mail to: Professor Ullica Segerstrale, Search
Committee Chair, Department of Social Sciences, 116 Siegel Hall,
Illinois Institute of Technology, 3301 South Dearborn Street,
Chicago, IL 60616. Please include e-mail address.

AA/EOE
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep  6 00:10:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:10:39 -0400
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.201039.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My local paper, the Akron Beacon Journal, has been running a series of Ohio
snippets this year, as it's the 200th Anniv. of our "founding."

I feel as frustrated as Barry, because they write things that are just not
true.  And I email them, telling them to call me, but they just don't give
me no respect.

So, today's was about the Ohio company who made "jeeps" for WWII.  And they
say that "jeep" comes from "G.P."=General Purpose.  Which probably isn't
true.  But this post isn't about the military vehicle.  It's about
airplanes.

But, one last bit of vitriol.  Ancestry.com's search engine sucks the big
one.  Barry and I and Jonathon  Green can tell you this, but until you try
to find things over there, you JUST CAN'T UNDERSTAND.   But when you do,
it's like hitting the lottery.  (or having your teenager finally realize
that you've gotten smarter as he got older :) )

May 31, 1937, the Helena(MT.) Independent.  Page number is indistinct.
               AIR SPEED PILOT HAS CLOSE CALL IN CRASH
St. Louis, May 30.  (AP)  Art Crester narrowly escaped a crash today when
the motor of his cream-colored "Jeep" quit on the takeoff for a 50-mile race
at the St. Louis Air show."

Now the paper is just wrong about the pilot's name--his name was Art
CHESTER,  a very famous pilot who was a leading racer in the National Air
Races which were the rage in the 1930's.

After Googling for a few hours about Art Chester, and doing some
extrapolation, I've come up with the following theory, and a few additional
facts.

Art Chester seems to have been one of the very top air racers starting about
1932.  His plane that he was using in the 1936-37 season was referred to as
the "Jeep," as the cite I gave proves.  Chester,  in about 1938 started
showing up at the air races in a plane he called the "Goon." (see where I'm
going with this......?)

So I infer that the name "Jeep" for an airplane was originated by Chester as
a tribute to the Popeye character introduced in early 1936--Eugene the Jeep.

There is always the possiblity that "jeep" in reference to an airplane was
derived from a previous military useage.

Sam Clements


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep  6 00:16:24 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:16:24 -0400
Subject: Jeep--addenda
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.201624.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As usual, I forgot to post WHAT I'm suggesting that I've antedated.

OED has NO listing of the airplane sense that I listed.

HDAS had 1941


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep  6 01:42:38 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:42:38 -0500
Subject: gets risen
In-Reply-To: <msg59034.thr-174ecb1.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.204238.0500.>

David,

My intro grad linguistics class is regularly a mix of foreign and US
students, most of the foreign ones having degrees and experience in TESOL
abroad.  They are consistently more prescriptive than American students and
are frequently nonplussed at some of the issues that come up, for example,
in Bauer and Trudgill's Language Myths.  The debate between Trudgill and
Halpern on "infer" vs. "imply" puzzles them because they can't imagine an
issue arising about the use of these words.  Once it's explained, they're
still puzzled as to why teachers don't just insist on correct usage.

I don't think you're being too prescriptive.  You're recognizing the reality
that English
teaching faces globally, that English is taught strictly as one of the
standard variants and nothing else is even mentioned.  If another variant
comes up at all, it's by means of negative comparison.  While we can hope to
have some influence on schools in this country and in Britain, and projects
like Rebecca Wheeler's in Newport, VA, show considerable promise, I don't
think we'll have any impact at all on ESL and EFL teaching abroad.

As to "gets risen", it sounds something like an exception to one of
Kurylowicz's Laws of Analogy or one of Manczak's variations on them, that a
regularized form tends to be used in new constructions.  Neither K or M says
anything explicit about new lexical collocations, but it's in the spirit of
their generalizations.  We'd expect "raised" to replace "risen" with "get",
so "get risen" is odd.  It's probably worth a usage note in an ESL
dictionary.

Herb

> Just heard on CNN:
>
> ... gets risen ...
>
> (should have been) ... gets raised ....
>
> When, if ever, should rise~raise confusions be recognized in desk
> dictionaries of standard English?  Should such problems be noted in
> learner's (non-native speaker) dictionaries?
>
> Clearly, when native speakers in their sometimes "sloppy" use of the
> language may mislead "new" speakers of English.  Am I being too
> prescriptive?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com

barnhart at highlands.com


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep  6 01:52:15 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:52:15 -0500
Subject: New folk etymology
In-Reply-To: <3F58A8A1.49730C0F@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.205215.0500.>

In an article on the BBC News web siteabout last night's debates, Justin
Webb, BBC Washington correspondent writes, "But low and behold things have
changed."  He's writing about Sen. John Carey [sic].

Herb


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Sat Sep  6 03:14:10 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:14:10 -0500
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.221410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20030905/d4d16a32/attachment.html>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 05:39:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:39:36 EDT
Subject: Wet Clothes/Dry Martini (1946, 1947)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.013936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Ancestry.com.  Perhaps the LOS ANGELES TIMES will have something,
when ProQuest reaches the 1930s and 1940s.


   14 January 1946, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Berkshire, Mass.),
pg. 10, col. 7:
_Benchley at Sea_
   On the whole, his (Bob Benchley's) remarks were too evanescent for
quotation.  He didn't originate "I've got to get out of these wet clothes and into a
dry Martini."  That was printed by an obscure California columnist and picked
up by a movie press agent, who attributed it to Benchley, to Benchley's
indignation.  One remark that he unquestionably did make was recorded during the
war.  He came out of a night club one evening and, tapping a uniformed figure on
the shoulder, said, "Get me a cab."  The uniformed figure turned around
furiously and informed him that he was not a doorman but a rear admiral.  "O.K.,"
said Benchley.  "Get me a battleship."--_The New Yorker_.

   3 September 1947, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg. 11?, col. 4:
_Benchley Remembered_  (By columnist Earl WIlson--ed.)
(...)  I reminded him that day (1944--ed.), in his big suite at the Royalton,
of his famous line, "I must get out of these wet clothes and into a dry
martini."
   "I didn't say it," he said.  "Somebody else did."
   He'd merely repeated it and somebody gave him credit, he said--and I think
now how much bigger he was than the guys who are always yelling to you that
was THEIR gag, Mr. Columnist.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 07:22:31 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 03:22:31 EDT
Subject: Long Time Between Drinks (1862)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.032231.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Long time between drinks" is one of the most famous of American drinking
phrases.  Allegedly, this occurred in a conversation between the governors of
North and South Carolina.  As usual, no one has a citation.
   Below is a citation from a UNC-Chapel Hill Clipping File.  I looked at
that clipping when I visited Chapel Hill about nine years ago.  Don't ask me to
look for my notes. I think the story traces it to the 1830s or 1840s, IIRC.
   The 2002 CHARLOTTE OBSERVER article, below, that dates the phrase to the
Reconstruction is clearly wrong.
   Could the phrase date to 1813, as the last two cites below imply?
   The first citation I found (I'll check APS Online again later) is 1862.
We don't have much stuff from the 1820s and 1830s, but we have stuff from the
1840s, such as the BROOKLYN EAGLE, and from the 1850s, such as the NEW YORK
TIMES.  Ancestry has been adding 1830s and 1840s dates.
    I have my doubts about 1813.    Our first cite is 1862.  That's a "long
time between citations."



(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Bagby, George William
Title: Editor's Table
Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department
of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 34, Issue 12, Dec 1862, pp.687-698
Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0693">Editor's Table, George William Bagby, pp.687-698</A>
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0698">Page 692</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
  "'It said that it was' what?" inquired Gen. Polk.
   _A d--d long time between drinks!_


(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Marcy, Randolph Barnes, 1812-1887.
Title: Border reminiscences.
Publication date: 1872.
Collection: Making of America Books
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000009">Page VII - Table of Contents</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000013">Page XI</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000092">Page 90</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   28 June 1895, THE LANDMARK (Statesville, NC), pg. 2, col. 4:
   ...but, in the language of the ancient and honorable Governor of North
Carolina, "It was a long time between drinks," and your readers were thirsty for
the news.


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Morford, Henry, (1823-1881): Red-tape and Pigeon-hole Generals (1864) 1 match
in 1 of 324 pages
<A HREF="http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=ccabe7b113c0f6a50273b718aef5088b;rgn=div1;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0076;node=Wright2-0076%3A6">CHAPTER IV.</A>
ion. / "By the way, the recollection of that effort to swallow makes my
throat dry, and it's a long time between drinks." / Another round at the bottle,
and Tom resumed. / "Well, work I


(GOOGLE)
http://aff.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?zcode=Z3702
    Posted on Wed, Mar. 06, 2002    The Charlotte Observer
Let's make a deal
(...)
There's a lovely story about a meeting of the governors of the two states
during Reconstruction, and it turns on this question: What did the governor of
South Carolina say to the governor of North Carolina? Gov. James Orr reputedly
said to Jonathan Worth, "The governor of South Carolina feels constrained to
say to the governor of North Carolina, that in these military cabinet counsels,
there is a mighty long time between drinks."


(GOOGLE)
http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/s75/s75Sa.html
North Carolina Collection--Subject Clippings
SUBJECT: Sayings - "It's a long time between drinks"
CALL NO.: CR917 N87
REEL NO.: 38
VOL. NO.: 150
PAGE(S): 330-340 SUBJECT


(GOOGLE)
http://www.cmstory.org/history/hornets/another.htm
In the time of Jackson's birth the boundary line was not known; it was but
vaguely traced through this section of the Waxhaws. Not until May 5, 1813, was
the line actually run. It was on the occasion of the surveying of this line
that the Governor of North Carolina reportedly observed as he mopped his
perspiring brow that "it's been a long time between drinks."


(GOOGLE)
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NCPOLK/2001-08/0998017189>
> > In the time of Jackson's birth the boundary line was not known; it was
> butvaguely traced through this section of the Waxhaws. Not until May 5, 1813, was
> the line actually run. It was on the occasion of the surveying of this line
> that the Governor of North Carolina reportedly observed as he mopped his
> perspiring brow that "it's been a long time between drinks."


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Sat Sep  6 12:27:42 2003
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:27:42 +0800
Subject: Horndog?
In-Reply-To: <200309041918.h84JIWpW026133@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.202742.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google returns 11,800 entries.

I'm a reasonably polite long-time lay lurker here.
No DARE in hand. Curious of the origin of this one.

[Obviously a contraction of "horny dog" which itself
seems obscure.]

Thanks,
Russ
...................................................
Cahn's Axiom:
        When all else fails, read the instructions.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep  6 14:31:25 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:31:25 -0400
Subject: Seroco, acronym (1902)
In-Reply-To: <20030903195011.GC24158@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.103125.0400.>

> I think you'll find _Nabisco_ from the same era, or slightly
> earlier (1898 is the date that sticks in mind, but I'm too
> lazy to look it up).

The National Biscuit Company was established in 1898. "Nabisco" was
registered as a trademark in 1901 (www.uspto.gov); so it beats "Seroco" by a
year--at least until someone finds an 1890s cite for "Seroco," which I think
is likely.

> Richard Bailey cites an example of _colinda_ for the _Colonial
> and Indian Exhibition_ in 1886 in his book _Nineteenth-Century
> English._

Thanks. I'll have to research this one.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 16:05:58 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:05:58 EDT
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.120558.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague here in North Carolina writes:

<<I'm writing about Wal-Mart, the
retailing giant, and I'm trying to track down the roots of the phrase,
"everyday low prices." It's one of their long-standing slogans.>>

He has checked the obvious sources, including Nexis back to the beginning.
Anyone done anyh research on this particular item?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 17:47:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:47:39 EDT
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.134739.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I wouldn't check Nexis.
   The bad search engine of newspaperarchive.com didn't seem to turn up
anything before 1928, but you can re-check.  Similar phrases occurred before this
time, however.  Several stores in the 1930s and 1940s and 1950s regularly used
the "everyday low prices" phrase in ads--before Walmart.


   23 November 1890, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION (GA), pg. 7?, col. 6:
   We thank Atlanta and all her vicinity for their most excellent patronage,
and we promise to more and more deserve your esteem.  Our goods are the
choicest to be found, and yet the prices are the very lowest.  We have the plain
American everyday figures on everything.  We are proud of our low prices.  We
don't hide our prices.
("THE FAIR," The One-Price, Plain-Figure House of Atlanta, 74, 76 and 78
Whitehall St.)


   23 February 1928, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5?, col. 4:
Everyday Low Prices That Prevail Here
(The John Lersch Company.  There are over 1,000 more hits in this
newspaper--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 18:05:46 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:05:46 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20History=20of=20the=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?phrase=20<<Everyday=20Low=20Prices>>=20(1928)?=
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.140546.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks very much, Barry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sat Sep  6 19:18:35 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:18:35 -0400
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.151835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        If Art Chester was naming his airplanes Jeep and Goon (as he was), then he clearly had in mind the characters Eugene the Jeep and Alice the Goon in the then enormously popular Thimble Theatre comic strip (aka Popeye, the Sailorman), written and drawn by E.C. Segar.  HDAS says that the Jeep first appeared on March 3, 1936, while the Straight Dope says March 16, 1936.  It is the Straight Dope that is correct.

        The strip is reprinted in The Complete E.C. Segar Popeye, Volume 10:  Dailies 1935 - 1937 (Rick Marschall ed. 1990).  Near the end of a storyline entitled "You Can't Expect April Showers from War Clouds" (Segar often named his storylines), about a war between Brutia and Popeye's own Spinachova, Segar inserted a teaser in the last panel on March 16, 1936.  The panel shows a wooden crate with a cat-like tail sticking out vertically through a hole in the top.  The panel is captioned:

>>What is a "Jeep"
Hah! If you owned one
your troubles would
be over - Coming -
"Eugene the Jeep"<<

There are also the words "Jeep's tail," with an arrow pointing to the tail, and the crate is labeled "To Olive Oyl."  All of these words are, of course, in all capital letters, in normal comic strip style.

        The rest of the jeep did not make an appearance until April 1, 1936, when Eugene finally came out of his box.  The jeep resembled a small, spotted dog, but walked on its hind legs.  Its name derived from its only cry, "jeep!"  It had fourth-dimensional powers, including the ability to tell the future and to teleport.  It came from darkest Africa and ate only orchids.

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 00:44:17 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:44:17 -0400
Subject: Cockroach Theory (1990)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.204417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COCKROACH THEORY
  .
    I heard this again just recently.  It's also known as the "one cockroach theory"  (There's never just one.)  Also, in business theory, "bad news travels in bunches."  It's not recorded yet?
    Did I do this right?  There's not a single hit on the WALL STREET JOURNAL's full text?...Ancestry.com didn't help (see below)...Investopedia.com has a nice selection of financial "buzz words" that includes this term.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
`Cockroach' stocks: Bug and boon:[FINAL Edition]
Paul Wiseman. USA Today (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Arlington, Va.: Jan 30, 1990.  pg. 03.B
   Wall Street is crawling with cockroaches these days - ``cockroach stocks,'' that is.

   A company wins that dubious distinction simply by coming out with surprising quarterly earnings. ``The theory is that, like cockroaches, you rarely see only one earnings surprise,'' explains Melissa R. Brown, director of quantitative analysis at Prudential-Bache Securities, where the cockroach label originated.

   If a company posts bad news one quarter, chances are 35% to 40% that it will issue another disappointment the next. Same goes for positive earnings surprises, Brown says.

   Those odds are good enough for Brown to recommend selling a stock - or going short in it - the first time it's hit with disappointing earnings (provided there's no other reason to hold on). Likewise, it's often a good idea to buy a stock after an unexpectedly rosy report. After the second surprise comes out, Wall Street usually catches on: Analysts start rewriting their earnings estimates and changing their recommendations, she says.

   Other market watchers also subscribe to the cockroach theory. ``We tend to agree with the adage, `There is no such thing as one earnings surprise,''' PaineWebber's Edward M. Kerschner wrote in a report earlier this month.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Investors tiptoe through earnings minefield:[FINAL Edition]
James Kim. USA Today (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Arlington, Va.: Mar 22, 1991.  pg. 01.B
(...)
Two reasons:

   -  The size of these ``earnings bummers,'' as Mark Stumpp, market analyst at PDI Strategies, calls them, are taking traders by surprise. IBM didn't say its earnings would be 5% lower this quarter than last year. It said earnings would be down 50%.

   -  The economic recovery may be in jeopardy. If earnings are worse than expected this quarter,  they might be worse  in the second and third quarters, too. Maybe the recession won't end this summer after all.

   It's impossible to know which companies are most vulnerable. Analysts who follow specific stocks have been as surprised as anyone by the bad news this week.

   Stumpp says be aware of the ``cockroach theory - if there's one around, there are usually others.'' If an industry leader is suffering, it's a good bet that others are in the same position. Given the IBM news, technology firms  are one danger zone.



 (GOOGLE GROUPS)
 From: Maurice E. Suhre (suhre at meltami.dsd.trw.com)
 Subject: Re: Could somebody please explain stocks with extremely high yields?
 Newsgroups: misc.invest
 Date: 1992-01-22 15:38:17 PST
 (...)
 It does lead to the oddity that a company omits, say, $1M in dividends and subsequently sees the market capitalization drop $100M!  Or some such numbers.  This phenomena may be a results of the cockroach theory of investing :-)  To wit: when you see one cockroach, there are usually a lot more that you don't see.  Similary, when an item of bad news comes out, there may a lot more in the wings.  So there are a lot of sellerson the first piece of bad news.-- Maurice Suhresuhre at trwrb.dsd.trw.com


 (ANCESTRY.COM)
    14 November 1973, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 26?, col. 1:
    Texas Christian, the original cockroach, also gets a chance to prove Darrell Royal's cockroach theory.  Royal, of course, is the Texas coach whose team can clinch a sixth consecutive trip to the Cotton Bowl and a tie for the Southwest Conference championship by defeating TCU.
    "What a cockroach doesn't eat or carry off," Royal said about TCU--and spoilers in general--a few years back, "it falls into and messes up."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE KILL ME (continued)

   No one checks.  No one can Google.  No one?  NO ONE??
   Once, in a million zillion years, just once, ONCE, ever, can my work be there, and my name, too?


Copyright 2003 CanWest Interactive, a division of
CanWest Global Communications Corp.
All Rights Reserved
Times Colonist (Victoria)
September 3, 2003 Wednesday Final Edition
SECTION: Life; Pleasures of the Table; Pg. D1

LENGTH: 680 words

HEADLINE: The hot dog and its humble beginnings

SOURCE: Times Colonist

BYLINE: Pam Freir

 BODY:
The names Charles Feltman and Nathan Handwerker mean nothing to most people - a curious oversight indeed considering their culinary legacy: it was these two guys with forgettable names who introduced a snack-smitten North American public to the hot dog.

Feltman, a German immigrant, started it all in the 1880s. He had a pie stand on Coney Island and was doing pretty well until hotels started popping up everywhere and eating into his business. So he switched from meat pies to sausages. He made them himself with ground beef and pork, pork juice, ginger, mustard, paprika and various other unrecorded spices. They were smoke cured, cooked in hot water, and served in a bun with homemade mustard and sauerkraut. He sold them for 10 cents each and the beach crowd ate them up. But Feltman didn't call them hot dogs. They were frankfurters.

In fact, they went by various names: frankfurters, weiners, red hots and even, because of their doggie-like configuration, dachshund sausages. The name frankfurter comes from what many believe to be its city of origin: Frankfurt. Wiener, on the other hand, suggests Viennese roots. But the frankfurter's legitimate birthplace remains a puzzle. In fact, disclaimers abound: in Frankfurt it's called a wiener. And in Vienna it's called a frankfurter. But the name hot dog is undeniably and proudly American. And that's another story.

The hot dog's official christening was an inadvertent one. A New York cartoonist named Tad Dorgan happened to be at a New York Giants' game in 1901 when this novel snack - the dachshund sausage - made its ballpark debut. Impressed, Dorgan did a cartoon commemorating the event. However, he didn't know how to spell dachshund so he called them hot dogs instead. And that's how they've been known ever since.
(...)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep  7 01:14:59 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:14:59 -0400
Subject: Cockroach Theory (1990)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.211459.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Here's an earlier cockroach usage.  This is from the 12/9/87 Wall Street Journal:

        >>Other academics and professional investors have their own
favorite rules for deciding when to sell. Melissa Brown,
director of quantitative research at Prudential-Bache
Securities Inc., for instance, generally recommends selling a
stock when the company's earnings fall below analysts'
expectations. "Like cockroaches, you rarely see just one
earnings surprise," she says. <<

        For a nonfinancial cite, here's the 8/17/85 Dallas Morning News:

        >>"The idea is that if you turn on the kitchen light late one night
and you see one cockroach or one mouse scurry across the floor, the
automatic assumption is that there must be 10 or 12 more running
around somewhere,' Sanders wrote, explaining what he calls his
"Rat/Roach Theory.'<<


John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 01:40:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:40:45 -0400
Subject: Metagee/Metemgee (1957); Carnival slang in LA TIMES (1928)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.214045.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CARNIVAL SLANG IN _LOS ANGELES TIMES_

   For today's ProQuest check, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE still isn't here.  PUCK is still not here on APS ONLINE.  The LOS ANGELES TIMES is up to 1929, but the last five years of it have gaps.  The following article is interesting, but can't be viewed.
   Hurry up, guys!  Christmas is coming!


Carnival Life Has Colorful Slang of Own
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 25, 1928.  pg. c19, 1 pgs
Text Word Count
241

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
METAGEE/METEMGEE

   I should have "roti" prepared for you in about an hour.
   "Metagee" was corrected/added to the OED in December 2002.  "In Guyana: a thick stew containing vegetables, fish, salted meat, and coconut milk, and having a distinctive grey colour.  Cf. Sancocho _n_."  The first citation is 1965.  Don't look to closely at "sancocho," because we know that's 100 years off.


THE FARMER'S FOOD MANUAL:
A RECIPE BOOK FOR THE WEST INDIES
Prepared and published with the help and collaboration of
THE JAMAICA SOCIAL WELFARE COMMISSION
by the
JAMAICA AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY
Printed by
ROBERT MACLEHOSE & CO. LTD.
THE UNIVERSITY PRESS, GLASGOW
SCOTLAND
1957

Pg. 203:  CHAPTER XXIV  _West Indian Dishes_
ANTIGUA
Conkie...
BARBADOS
White Pudding...

Pg. 204:
BRITISH GUIANA
_Metemgee or Metagee_
1 lb. green plantain
2 small eddoes (cocoes)
1 small coconut
1/4 lb. yam
1/4 lb. cassava
4 ochroes
1/4 lb. pumpkin
1/4 lb. saltfish
1/4 lb. mixed meat (saltbeef and pig's tail)
1/2 onion
1 tomato
1/4 of a hot pepper
1 sprig thyme
   _Method._  1. Clean and cut up mixed meat.  Saute (fry lightly) and then boil in 1/4 cup water for 20 minutes.  2. Clean and soak saltfish for 20 minutes.  3. Scrub, wash and peel vegetables.  4. Grate coconut and add 1/2 pint water.  Squeeze thoroughly, then strain off the milk.  5. Remove pot from flame and pack vegetables, saltfish and seasoning in layers, putting the "hardest" vegetable (plantain) at the bottom, and the saltfish on top.  6. Add the coconut milk and return the pot to the flame and simmer for 30 minutes.  7. Put pumpkin and ochroes on top of vegetables and allow to steam for the last 10 minutes.
   Serves: Three
Total time of preparation:   1 hour, 20 minutes.
Use of dish:                         Main meal:   supper, lunch.
Food value:                         Balanced meal forenergy, body building.
Who eats it:                         Adults and children.
When:                                 Lunch, supper.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 13:02:15 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:02:15 EDT
Subject: Long Time Between Drinks (1862)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.090215.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sat, 6 Sep 2003 03:22:31 EDT, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
(pseud. for Barry Popik) writes:

>  (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
>  Author: Bagby, George William
>  Title: Editor's Table
>  Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department
>  of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 34, Issue 12, Dec 1862,
pp.687-698
>  Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
>  <A
HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%2
0between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0693">
Editor's Table, George William Bagby, pp.687-698</A>
>  <A
HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%2
0between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0698">
Page 692</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
>    "'It said that it was' what?" inquired Gen. Polk.
>     _A d--d long time between drinks!_

I find this quote, not necessarily suspicious, but still rather
disconcerting, considering that Polk, before he became a Confederate general, was an
Episcopal bishop.

       - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 21:23:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:23:48 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" on web; Piece de resistance (1789); Roti
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.172348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"WINDY CITY" ON WEB

   My latest "Windy City" findings are on the web (www.orionjeweb.com), on that "Chicago" guy's page:


  Subj:    Re: Windy City Myth
  Date:    9/7/2003 4:06:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "carljweber" <carljweber at email.msn.com>
  To:    <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Cc:    <gcohen at umr.edu>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry
Thanks for the scans. Here's what I've come up with.

Carl
orionjeweb.com


   I have to tell him a few things, such as that COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY is not an ADS publication.  But it's OK.
   The big question here is, why isn't this on the Chicago Public Library's web page?  Why isn't it on the Newberry Library's web page?  Why isn't it on the Chicago Historical Society's web page?
   Why does the CPL's web page continue to state something (the NEW YORK SUN 1893 World's Fair myth) it knows is not true?
   Why, seven years after I gave my papers (for free, of course) to the CHS, do I not even get a kind word, from anyone, ever?
   We're all waiting for ProQuest's digitized CHICAGO TRIBUNE, due any day now.  But what I've gone through all these years, without a single kind word, shouldn't happen to a dead cow.


---------------------------------------------------------------
PIECE DE RESISTANCE

   Ah, the _piece de resistance_.  Merriam-Webster has 1839?  OED has 1797 in parens.
   From "drama" on Literature Online (LION):


Cumberland, Richard, 1732-1811 [Author Record]
The imposters (1789) 203Kb
THE IMPOSTORS: A COMEDY. PERFORMED AT THE THEATRE ROYAL DRURY LANE. 202Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 195Kb
ACT I. 32Kb
...table; plain Dorothy is the piece de resistance at the foot...

(More detail below--ed.)
L. Janus.
Hold there, friend Jack! if we are / both to play the same game, he that's first up / may chance to spoil the other's hand. /

Polyc.
Content yourself about that, and tho' / [325] you are Harry Singleton every where else, you / shall be Lord Janus here, and have all your privileges / of being first serv'd; then I hope your /

[Page 13]
humble servant may have leave to help himself: / Fair Eleanor is the dish of dainties at the head of / the table; plain Dorothy is the piece de resistance / at the foot of it. /

---------------------------------------------------------------
ROTI

   Merriam-Webster has 1919 for "roti."  OED has 1920.
   I noticed an article about East Indians in Trinidad in the July 1907 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.  I was at NYU yesterday, and announced that I'd have an antedate within a few minutes.  I'd just have to go upstairs and check a few pages.  This is an important food; NYC now has many restaurants for Carbibbean/West Indian food.
   I checked the NYU shelves.  Every volume of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC was there--every one _except_ 1907.  I looked at every desk.  Nowhere.  Nothing is ever easy.
   So now I'm at Columbia.  It has the 1907 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.  "Roti" isn't there.
   I guess we'll have to wait for THE GLEANER project on newspaperarchive.com.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 22:51:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:51:36 -0400
Subject: Garlic Knots (1988)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.185136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I re-checked CUE's annual Long Island Dining Guide for the 1960s and 1970s, but I didn't see "garlic knots."
   ProQuest has signed an agreement to do NEWSDAY (eventually); NEWSDAY's current achives are to 1985 only.
   FACTIVA wasn't available to me at NYU (thanks, NYU), but it's here at Columbia.  The 1978 article perhaps is not the knot we know.


(FACTIVA)
FEATURES TRAVEL
An aromatic welcome to world garlic capital
Nino Lo Bello
665 words
18 November 1978
The Globe and Mail
P47; (ILLUST)
English
All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All rights reserved.

To get to the Garlic Capital of the world, you don't need a road map. Just follow your nose . .

Here in this tiny village of 3,000 garlic growers, some four hours north of Paris near the Belgian border, garlic is passionately revered for its character and taste. Let it be said that if you have an anti-garlic prejudice, do your tourism in this garlicky hub and learn why Arleux scorns the scorners of the Lilicea, genus Allium sativum.

Yes, you better believe it - garlic is a member of the lily family, along with onions, scallions, chives and leeks. The wondrous, eccentric white bulb, which has as many friends as it has enemies, is Item A in Arleux the whole year round, but during the middle of December this village stages a festival in honor of the smelly epicurean herb, climaxed by the election of Miss Garlic.

The reigning Garlic Queen is 18-year-old Nadine Leroux, who works as a riverboat hostess. Besides all the honor, the curvy blonde is given her weight in garlic (126 lbs.) as a prize - which, she says, she intends to eat. Standing a safe, non-asphyxiating three feet away, she tells members of the press that she is wild about garlic, eats it twice a day and carries the raw cloves in her purse at all times. No, she doesn't have a fiance, but she's not worried because everybody in Arleux eats garlic and when two people have eaten garlic, they're unaware of each other's breath.

During the annual garlic festival, stalls are set up on Arleux's winding main street, all of which dispense garlicky products and garlicky hot dishes of every kind. One stand gives out free bowls of garlic soup to any tourist who isn't French. Other stalls go in for such take-home specialties as garlic cheeses and sausages, dried and smoked garlic, garlands of braided garlic bulbs (some of which are three feet long) and hot slices of garlic bread.

The festival is climaxed in the evening with a garlic ball in the town hall, sumptuously decorated with stringed garlic knots (what else?).
(...)


(FACTIVA)
FOOD
Irresistible Garlic Knots Twists of garlic are cheap and popular munchies in the bread baskets at several local restaurants
By Marie Bianco
908 words
6 July 1988
Newsday
NASSAU AND SUFFOLK
03
English
(Copyright Newsday Inc., 1988)

SIMPLE ingredients - flour, water, yeast. It's how the cook treats these elements that determines whether French baguettes or pita bread will make an appearance on the dinner table.

But if your name is Frank Zitoli, rest assured that the bread basket will include garlic knots, tiny morsels of bread tossed with olive oil, lots of fresh garlic and grated Romano cheese. In a word - irresistible.

"My Uncle Mike first introduced me to them,"said Zitoli, referring to Michael Prudente, co-owner of Prudente's restaurant in Island Park. Prudente's garlic knots were a slightly different shape, said Zitoli "but when he asked me what I thought of them, I told him they were great."

Zitoli loved garlic knots, but would the public? At the time, he owned Pizza Delight in Plainview. "I put a bowl of them on the counter and offered them free to customers. I waited for their reaction. As soon as a person would pop one into his mouth, his eyes would light up and a smile would come to his face."

That was 10 years ago, and he sold thousands at 10 cents a piece.

But Zitoli didn't stop there. He splits garlic knots and stuffs them with provolone, prosciutto or sausage. He stuffs the dough with slivers of cheese before baking, adds whole-wheat flour, substitutes semolina. For champagne parties at his restaurant, Franina, in Syosset, Zitoli tucks in smoked tuna and smoked salmon. He has gone as far as presenting filled garlic knots in the shape of wreaths and Christmas trees.

"I feel they are a success because I fuss with the details," he said. "I hire part-time people who do nothing but peel garlic, and the cheese is grated here." Why Romano cheese? "It brings out the flavor of the garlic," he said.

Will garlic knots catch on? Are they the garlic bread of tomorrow? Danny Horton, owner of Victor's Pizza Delight in South Huntington, learned to make garlic knots from the former owners, Zitoli's sister and brother-in-law. At Victor's you can still buy them for a dime apiece or eat them with the daily specials - lasagna, chicken parmesan, ziti. "During a busy day, we can make as many as 1,500 garlic knots," said Horton.

Across Route 110 and down the road at Francesco's Pizzeria, owner Michael Macchia said he believes they're popular because "People love garlic." A regular customer who was waiting for two pizzas to come out of the oven said she picks up garlic knots when she buys pizza and leaves them in the refrigerator as snacks for her children after school. "A few seconds in the microwave makes them taste freshly baked," she said, "and it makes a good alternative to a sugar snack." Macchia charges 15 cents each for garlic knots. "They take a lot of time to make because they're formed by hand," he said.

Zitoli doesn't have a problem employing knotters. When he needs extra hands he calls on his three children, Victor, 13, Elisa, 11, and Alphonso, 8.

Here's Zitoli's recipe. You will have more of the garlic / oil mixture than you need. Save it for the next baking day or brush it onto sliced Italian bread and run it under the broiler. Garlic Knots 1 ounce fresh yeast 1 cup water 1 tablespoon granulated sugar 1 pound all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon salt 3 tablespoons olive oil 4 to 5 large cloves garlic

1/2 cup olive oil

1/2 cup corn oil salt to taste garlic powder to taste

1/4 cup grated Romano cheese

1. Combine yeast, water and sugar in a bowl and allow to proof. Add the flour and salt and mix with an electric mixer until well combined. Add the olive oil. Knead with dough hook for 10 minutes or until dough is smooth.

2. Divide dough into two equal portions. Brush dough with a little extra olive oil on all sides and allow to rise in a shallow pan 60 minutes, covered with plastic wrap, or until double in size. Remove dough and place on a flat surface. Roll each out with a rolling pin into a 6-by-12-inch rectangle. Using a dough scraper, cut each into two 3-by-12-inch rectangles. Cut each rectangle into 12 3-by-1-inch strips.

3. Loosely form each strip into a knot taking care not to stretch the dough. Place formed knots 1 inch apart on a greased baking sheet and bake in a 400-degree oven for 10 to 15 minutes or until lightly browned on top. Remove, place in a large bowl.

4. In a blender, process garlic with olive and corn oils until creamy. As soon as the garlic knots come out of the oven drizzle them with 4 tablespoons of the oil mixture and toss two or three times. Sprinkle with salt and garlic powder and toss until knots are well coated. Sprinkle with Romano cheese and toss once more. Makes about 48 garlic knots.

Newsday Photos by Phillip Davies-1) The Zitoli children - Alphonso, 8, Victor, 13 and Elisa, 11 - stuff the knots, above. 2) Their father, Frank, displays their finished work, right. 3) Frank shows the proper knotting technique, below


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 00:16:57 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:16:57 -0400
Subject: Garlic Knots (1988)
In-Reply-To: <692BF1FA.0F5C0D5C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.201657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:51 PM -0400 9/7/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>(FACTIVA)
>FEATURES TRAVEL
>An aromatic welcome to world garlic capital

You mean to tell me Gilroy, CA isn't the unique World's Garlic
Capital?  They always claim it is.  And they have their own garlic
queen--have had since the early 60's at the latest.  Maybe their and
Arleux's should have a championship playoff or clove-in--the event
described below carries more than a whiff of the similar proceedings
that have been taking place annually in Gilroy for ages.  Wonder
which one was first to call itself "Garlic Capital" (in either
English or French)...

L

>Nino Lo Bello
>665 words
>18 November 1978
>The Globe and Mail
>P47; (ILLUST)
>English
>All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All
>rights reserved.
>
>To get to the Garlic Capital of the world, you don't need a road
>map. Just follow your nose . .
>
>Here in this tiny village of 3,000 garlic growers, some four hours
>north of Paris near the Belgian border, garlic is passionately
>revered for its character and taste. Let it be said that if you have
>an anti-garlic prejudice, do your tourism in this garlicky hub and
>learn why Arleux scorns the scorners of the Lilicea, genus Allium
>sativum.
>
>Yes, you better believe it - garlic is a member of the lily family,
>along with onions, scallions, chives and leeks. The wondrous,
>eccentric white bulb, which has as many friends as it has enemies,
>is Item A in Arleux the whole year round, but during the middle of
>December this village stages a festival in honor of the smelly
>epicurean herb, climaxed by the election of Miss Garlic.
>
>The reigning Garlic Queen is 18-year-old Nadine Leroux, who works as
>a riverboat hostess. Besides all the honor, the curvy blonde is
>given her weight in garlic (126 lbs.) as a prize - which, she says,
>she intends to eat. Standing a safe, non-asphyxiating three feet
>away, she tells members of the press that she is wild about garlic,
>eats it twice a day and carries the raw cloves in her purse at all
>times. No, she doesn't have a fiance, but she's not worried because
>everybody in Arleux eats garlic and when two people have eaten
>garlic, they're unaware of each other's breath.
>
>During the annual garlic festival, stalls are set up on Arleux's
>winding main street, all of which dispense garlicky products and
>garlicky hot dishes of every kind. One stand gives out free bowls of
>garlic soup to any tourist who isn't French. Other stalls go in for
>such take-home specialties as garlic cheeses and sausages, dried and
>smoked garlic, garlands of braided garlic bulbs (some of which are
>three feet long) and hot slices of garlic bread.
>
>The festival is climaxed in the evening with a garlic ball in the
>town hall, sumptuously decorated with stringed garlic knots (what
>else?).
>(...)
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 00:50:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:50:04 -0400
Subject: Things You Should Know (Chicago Tribune, 5 September 2003)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.205004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Yes, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE got it wrong again...At least this article mentioned Bruce Kraig, also an editor on the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (2004).
  What to do?  Write a letter to the editor?  Done that several times.  They won't publish it.  Write to the ombudsman?  Done that several times.  he doesn't respond.  Write to the Organization of News Ombudsmen (ONO)?  Done that. Attack the CHICAGO TRIBUNE with guns until they tell the truth?  No, I haven't done that.
   Andy Smith (the overall editor of the ENCYCLOPEDIA) earlier this year, translated every bad outcome of mine into something that I did "wrong."  And I'd sort of make fun of that to myself.  My father was dying for twenty years--my first "mistake."  And then my mother was dying--second "mistake."  And then I gave my research to the Chicago Historical Society for free--third "mistake."  And so on--all my "mistakes."
   And the dead cow that got an apology from the Chicago city council--it made all the right moves?  A dead cow?
   Here's another "mistake," just a few weeks ago.  I joined my sister (in Scarsdale, NY) to go swimming.  We talked as she was cleaning cream cheese from her son's CDs.  (He's autistic.)  While she was doing this, he grabbed scissors and was stabbing at his screen window.  "He wants to go out," she told me.  So then we let him out, and HE WALKS INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S HOMES.  "He's looking for more CDS," my sister says.  And I asked if this happens all the time now, and she says yes.
   Just kill me.



Things you should know (but don't):[RedEye Edition]
Chris Malcolm, RedEye. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Sep 5, 2003.  pg. 24
Copyright 2003 by the Chicago Tribune)

CITY INSIDER

If you've entertained friends and relatives from out of town, you've experienced what is called "the big blank."

That's when a visitor asks you a simple question about something local and you have no idea how to answer. You can fake it ("I think that's left over from the World's Fair.") or divert their attention ("Hey look! Horse carriages!"), and more than a few of us have picked this awkward moment as a fine time to stop for lunch.

But the best thing to do is brush up on your hometown trivia and look like the smart urban host that you've always wanted to be.

Chicago is rich in history, and the stories the city can tell stretch well beyond the Water Tower on Michigan Avenue (built in 1869) or Frank Sinatra's "My Kind of Town" (written by two New Yorkers).

So here begins your journey to become the Chicago trivia expert you've always wanted to be.

Regional cuisine

You should know: Just take a New Yorker out for dinner at a Chicago pizza place or go to Los Angeles and ask for a "stuffed pie" and you know this town's deep-dish pizza is different.

But did you know? Why is a Chicago-style hot dog loaded with everything (pickle, tomatoes, etc.)? "It comes from competition back around World War I," said Bruce Kraig, a history professor emeritus at Roosevelt University who has completed a book on the culture of hot dog stands.

Kraig said his research shows that Italian and Greek hot dog stand vendors competed for business by loading up a dog with more stuff back around 1920. This explains why a Chicago-style hot dog has traditional German elements (mustard, celery salt and sour pickles) in addition to Mediterranean add-ons (tomatoes, hot peppers, relish).

And don't forget: In Chicago, you don't use ketchup.

Running with Al Capone

You should know: Al Capone, Chicago's most notorious gangster, ruled the city in the 1920s before he was convicted on tax evasion charges and sent to prison in 1931, first to Atlanta and then to Alcatraz in San Francisco. He is widely acknowledged as having ordered the St. Valentine's Day Massacre in 1929 when seven men were gunned down at a garage at 2122 N. Clark St. The garage is long gone.

But did you know? Capone had headquarters at the Four Deuces at 2222 S. Wabash Ave., the Metropole Hotel at 2300 S. Michigan Ave., and the Lexington Hotel at 2135 S. Michigan Ave. Perhaps a man ahead of his time, he had suburban outposts in Forest View and Cicero.

City of Candy

You should know: Candymakers have made Chicago home over the years, and the first Fannie May candy shop opened in 1920 at 11 N. LaSalle St.

But did you know? At night the city smells like chocolate, thanks to a factory at Blommer Chocolate Company at 600 West Kinzie St. Their small retail store sells 10-pound chocolate bars and discounted bags of broken ones in little bags.

It's easy to get around and yet . . .

You should know: The street numbering system was set in stone in 1910 when planners decided it starts at State Street running north and south and at Madison Street running east and west. Each mile counts as 800, making 100 equal to one-eighth of a mile (or for every Starbucks, whichever comes first). Even numbers are for buildings on the north or west side of a street; odd numbers are on the south and east.

But did you know? Chicago has about 3,900 miles of roads, and while some are known streets, avenues, drives, ways and courts, there's only one difference. Boulevards do not allow trucks or commercial vehicles, according to the Chicago Department of Transportation. Lake Shore Drive is the exception. A city ordinance prohibits commercial trucks and pickup trucks carrying cargo from the city's busy portion of that federal route.

One more thing: Chicago doesn't add many new streets, but when it does, they try to continue a street and carry the name over to preserve the grid. This explains why a street can skip over a few blocks and continue with the same name.

Why 'Windy City' and 'City of Big Shoulders'?

You should know: It's big shoulders because Carl Sandburg's poem "Chicago" says so. Bears linebacker Dick Butkus helped keep the name alive.

But did you know? It's the "windy city," because Chicago and New York were competing for the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition. A New York Sun editorial bashed the "nonsensical claims of that windy city. Its people could not hold a world's fair even if they won it."

One World's Fair or Two?

You should know: Despite the New York Sun's name-calling, Chicago hosted the 1893 event, which left what is now the Museum of Science and Industry. Chicago also hosted the 1933 World's Fair in 1933 ("A Century of Progress"), and it drew millions of people to the city.
(...)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Sep  7 23:18:18 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:18:18 -0500
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.181818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
should worry = I don't care)?

    The item appears below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen


[San Francisco Bulletin]:
March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
[I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
dearly for him].
But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
will not suffer."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 01:20:46 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:20:46 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" on web
In-Reply-To: <37B11478.2B30F102.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.212046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"WINDY CITY" ON WEB
>
>    My latest "Windy City" findings are on the web
>(www.orionjeweb.com), on that "Chicago" guy's page:
>
>
>   Subj:    Re: Windy City Myth
>   Date:    9/7/2003 4:06:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>   From:    "carljweber" <carljweber at email.msn.com>
>   To:    <Bapopik at aol.com>
>   Cc:    <gcohen at umr.edu>
>   Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>Barry
>Thanks for the scans. Here's what I've come up with.
>
>Carl
>orionjeweb.com
>
>    I have to tell him a few things, such as that COMMENTS ON
>ETYMOLOGY is not an ADS publication.  But it's OK.

More than OK; it's great.  I especially like the fact that Carl's
site includes scans of some of those Cincinnati Enquirer references
(though not the earliest Barry has located).  Thanks to both Barry
and Carl!  (And thanks to Jerry at CoE and to Cecil at TSD as well.)

Larry


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 03:45:41 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:45:41 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.234541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,
I just found a cite from the Sheboygan Press, Sept. 23 1913, giving the
result of a bowling tournament, where

[     "The Ish-go-bibble bowling team defeated Freddy Heerman's
Colts......<snip>  Ish-ga-bibble--(meaning "I should worry.")   ]

So the "ga" was used in Wisconsin at that time.  Hope this helps.  I'll try
some earlier hits.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:18 PM
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
> of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
> actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
> German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
> there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
> 1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
> should worry = I don't care)?
>
>     The item appears below my signoff.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>
> [San Francisco Bulletin]:
> March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
> Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
> Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
> graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
> member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
> the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
> [I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
> dearly for him].
> But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
> will not suffer."
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 04:07:52 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:07:52 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.000752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Both cites in the Sheboygan story were spelled "ga."
I simply miscopied the first as "go."  Sorry.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> Gerald,
> I just found a cite from the Sheboygan Press, Sept. 23 1913, giving the
> result of a bowling tournament, where
>
> [     "The Ish-go-bibble bowling team defeated Freddy Heerman's
> Colts......<snip>  Ish-ga-bibble--(meaning "I should worry.")   ]


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep  8 04:45:51 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:45:51 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
In-Reply-To: <p04310102bb81695bf2ad@[131.151.65.89]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.004551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
>of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
>actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
>German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
>there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
>1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
>should worry = I don't care)?
>
>    The item appears below my signoff.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>[San Francisco Bulletin]:
>March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
>Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
>Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
>graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
>member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
>the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
>[I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
>dearly for him].
>But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
>will not suffer."

There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
[different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
"ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not been
so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make only
a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
"go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
"gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with "should".
And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Sep  8 04:58:36 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:58:36 -0500
Subject: New word? prosititots
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.235836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I passed the question to my daughter at Univ. Mo, Columbia, and it doesn't
seem to have made it into general circulation there.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----

Well... I haven't ever heard them before... so i would say no.. but it does
make sense.. you should see the stuff we sell at jc penney...  the childrens
dept. sells the exact same stuff that the jouniors dept. sells only
smaller...  I have actually bought some stuff from childrens cuz it was
cheaper and i can  :)   but it is a sad fact... the kids now a days are ten
times worse than i ever dreamed of being when i was their age...  girls and
boys are having sex at like 10 yrs old, and probably younger... i don't know
if the parents are just oblivious or what... but i could garuntee you that
they have no idea what their kids are really like and do..  things are going
down hill as far as drugs and sex and all that good stuff go...    But
hey... I turned out alright and i did plenty of stuff you guys were
oblivious of when i was younger   :)     ok, well i will talk to you later i
am going to bed...  at 11p.m. on a friday night...  I love you!!


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 05:13:59 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:13:59 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.011359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If what Evan Morris says about there being a 1913 popular song by Sam Lewis
called "Isch Gabibble" is the theory that Green and Chapman hold, then my
searching of ancestry.com would confirm that the song popularized the term.

I searched from 1908-1913 using "ga bibble" "ki bibble" "ka bibble."  I got
zero hits 1908-1912.  In 1913, I got hits from Modesto(CA) for "ich ka
bibble," from Whichita Falls(TX) for "I-sha-ga-bibble"(in a furniture store
ad), Sheboygan(WI) "Ish-ga-bibble" (the bowling team!)

Can you imagine how they would have mangled "Danke Schoen" if IT had been
the 1913 hit!

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
> Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
> [different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
> even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
> "ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not
been
> so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
> perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make
only
> a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
> "go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
> and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
> "gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
> just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
> analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with
"should".
> And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
> participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Sep  8 07:44:24 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:44:24 +0100
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.084424.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW. My take on 'ish kabibble' is based on the background provided by Leo Rosten in Hooray for Yiddish (1982). Rosten in turn cites the journal Editor and Publisher of Oct 17 1970.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 09:03:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:03:15 EDT
Subject: Trinidad food (1961, 1964, 1967)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.050315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some notes
   The Library of Congress has some newspaper volumes of the PORT OF SPAIN
GAZETTE (from 1825), the TRINIDAD CHRONICLE (from 1864), and the TRINIDAD
GUARDIAN (from 1917).  If I have time to go there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EAST INDIANS IN TRINIDAD:
A STUDY OF CULTURAL PERSISTENCE
by Morton Klass, Barnard College, Columbia University
1961
Prospect Heights, Illinois:  Waveland Press, Inc.
1988 reissue

   Not surprisingly, this book was available at Columbia.
   There's a good bibliography, but only two books figure to give me an
earlier "roti," and I don't know what libraries have them:

Comins, D. W. D.
1893  Note on Emigration from India to Trinidad (plus Diary and Appendices),
Calcutta, Bengal Secretariat Press.  In Notes on Indian Immigration,
1878-1893, pp. 205-384.

Morton, S. E.
1916  John Morton of Trinidad.  Toronto, Westminster Co.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO:
ISLES OF THE IMMORTELLES
by Robin Bryans
London: Faber and Faber Limited
1967

Pg. 201 (Carnival):  Mountains of green coconuts had appeared and long lines
of booths had been built supplying every kind of Trinidadian sweetmeat and
snack--roti and dal puri, fish floats and accra, hot dogs and hamburgers, hot and
cold coo-coo made from sliced occhroes, tree-oysters and crab-backs, mashed
tum-tum plantains and corncobs, all to be washed down with unlimited quantities
of Cokes and Solos, lagers and rums.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EVERYONE IN THIS HOUSE MAKES BABIES
by Sheila Solomon Klass
Garden City, NY:  Doubleday & Co.
1964

Pg. 51:  "Breakfast" was what normal people ate at midday.

Pg. 54:  "Oh, she can make _roti_ (pancake breads) and _talkari_ (vegetable
curry) fine," Doon said impatiently, "but _we_ cook with salt."

Pg. 92:  Ramlal's mother and grandmother worked at serving the very festive
dinner: rice and dal, curried goat meat, pumpkin squash curry, roti (holiday
variety called dal _puree_ because of the thin layers of dal interlarded in the
dough) sliced eggplant dipped in dal and flour and fried in ghee, and soft
drinks mixed with evaporated milk.

Pg. 95:  It was conch, a variety of huge snail that Arcadians consider a
great delicacy.  Mrs. Kumar had prepared it in a thick, rich, curry sauce.  She
set the dish down and we helped ourselves.  One bite was all I needed to know
that I would never forget this Christmas.  Conk has the flavor, the appearance,
and the texture of diced automobile tire.  (...)
   "First time you have conk, in _my_ house," he said happily.  "First time
you ever have conk.  You must remember that."

Pg. 104:  From the kitchen, a thatched shed behind the ajoupa, she fetched an
enormous brown paper bag full of sizzling _channa_, crisp and spicy.  Channa
is not a food one usually finds on an American maternity diet.  It is made by
soaking chick-peas overnight, then frying them until they are brittle and
sprinkling them with salt and red pepper until they're very hot.  East Indians
chew channa as light refreshment, equivalent to the way we eat popcorn or
peanuts.

Pg. 120:  During the wedding season, which lasts from March through July, we
attended two or three weddings each Sunday, and slept--or rather, lay
awake--Saturday nights while "mikes" (hired sound trucks) parked on the road, played
popular Indian music to liven up the all night "cookings."  At these cookings,
enormous quantities of food were prepared for the hundreds of wedding guests
expected.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 12:59:25 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:59:25 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
In-Reply-To: <002f01c375c8$03f06120$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.085925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Imagine? What imagining? You don't remember "donkey shame"?

dInIs



If what Evan Morris says about there being a 1913 popular song by Sam Lewis
called "Isch Gabibble" is the theory that Green and Chapman hold, then my
searching of ancestry.com would confirm that the song popularized the term.

I searched from 1908-1913 using "ga bibble" "ki bibble" "ka bibble."  I got
zero hits 1908-1912.  In 1913, I got hits from Modesto(CA) for "ich ka
bibble," from Whichita Falls(TX) for "I-sha-ga-bibble"(in a furniture store
ad), Sheboygan(WI) "Ish-ga-bibble" (the bowling team!)

Can you imagine how they would have mangled "Danke Schoen" if IT had been
the 1913 hit!

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


>  There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
>  Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
>  [different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
>  even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
>  "ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not
been
>  so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
>  perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make
only
>  a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
>  "go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
>  and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
>  "gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
>  just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
>  analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with
"should".
>  And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
>  participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?
>
>  -- Doug Wilson
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 13:50:03 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:50:03 EDT
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.095003.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:18:18 -0500, Gerald Cohen <
> gcohen at UMR.EDU> asks
>
> Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
> of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
> actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
> German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
> there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
> 1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
> should worry = I don't care)?

Many German verbs start with the syllable "ge", hence if you are creating a
mock German verb you would start it with "ge".  I heard of one case where a
Yiddish-speaker, resident 50 years in the United States, could not think of the
Yiddish word for "to promise" when writing a letter, so he created the nonce
word "gepromise"---to the great confusion of the letter's recipient!

So there is a possibility that "Ga Fret" is simply the result of someone's
rendering the English "to fret" into German, whether as a joke or because he/she
couldn't think of a German equivalent I don't know.  Similarly, it is
possible that "ishkabibble" is a mis-rendering (or dialect variation) of "ich
gebibble" where "bibble" is a presumably non-German verb which the coiner decided to
employ in German (or maybe Yiddish).

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 16:41:58 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:41:58 -0400
Subject: Cherry Vanilla (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.124158.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are over 15,000 Google hits for "cherry vanilla."  I guess I'll add it to Butter Pecan and Rum Raisin and Rocky Road and Cookies & Cream and Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 91 -- No Title
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Mar 24, 1955.                   p. 14 (1 page):
      COSTA'S
FRENCH ICE CREAM
in Chocolate Mint Chip
and Cherry Vanilla


      If You Plan a Midwinter Party
       By Ruth Miller Written for The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Feb 7, 1947.                   p. 14 (1 page):
   Cherry Vanilla Parfait.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Sales of Pre-Packaged Ice Cream Are Spreading in Metropolitan Area
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 15, 1950.                   p. 39 (1 page):
   Favorite flavors here, in the order of preference, are vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, cherry vanilla, butter pecan, and maple walnut.  Average price a pint is 45 cents.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 8 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Sep 17, 1946.                   p. 12 (1 page):
Don't Miss Breyers Cherry Vanilla Ice Cream.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Sep  8 16:46:25 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:46:25 -0400
Subject: slang use of "random"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.124625.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, all who responded to Ken Ringle re "random ." You can access
his story (for a limited time) at:

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33337-2003Sep5.html

Bethany


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep  8 16:56:37 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0700
Subject: prostitot plus
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.095637.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone suggested "sororistute" perhaps as a later developemental stage.

http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001031.html#001031

sororisluts





<<you can dispute taste>>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 17:27:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:27:04 -0400
Subject: Maple Walnut (1902) or Walnut Maple (1907)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.132704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 17,600 Google hits for "maple walnut."  OED ("Food?  What's that?") is finished with the letter "M" and doesn't have it.
   There are 5,660 Google hits for "walnut maple."  This is often not a food, but a piece of wood.  OED doesn't have this, either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALNUT MAPLE

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 62 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 7, 1913.                   p. II6 (2 pages)
 ("Walnut Maple" is here somewhere in this furniture ad--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 26 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 3, 1925.                   p. 27 (1 page)
(Furniture.  You find the "walnut maple" in these three--ed.)

      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 1, 1866.                   p. 7 (1 page)

      Classified Ad 2 -- No Title
              New York Daily Times  (1851-1857).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 22, 1853.                   p. 5 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 22 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1932.                   p. S12 (1 page)

      Display Ad 13 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 22, 1909.                   p. 7 (1 page):
(Illegible.  Perhaps in the chocolates ad--ed.)

      THE SEDUCTIVE SUNDAE.
       From the New York Tribune..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 11, 1907.                   p. E7 (1 page):
_None of the Soda Fountain Men Can Tell_
   _How the Name Originated._
>From the New York Tribune.
(This original article should in the archives from the TRIBUNE--ed.)
(...)
   This one I'm setting before you is composed of frozen cream heaped with walnuts which have been steeped in walnut maple sirup, the whole covered with thick walnut maple sirup.  There isn't a better sundae going, and when it's made of chopped walnuts, which have been mixed when dry with malted milk powder it's about as nourishing and appetizing a thing as you can get.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAPLE WALNUT

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 42 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 27, 1912.                   p. II3 (1 page)

      Display Ad 52 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 15, 1912.                   p. I15 (1 page)

      Display Ad 60 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 9, 1911.                   p. II6 (1 page):
     _Don't Forget Your Sunday Brick_
      It Puts the Finishing Touch to Your Dinner
MAPLE WALNUT ICE CREAM--VANILLA ICE CREAM
STRAWBERRY ICE CREAM


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1903.                   p. 4 (1 page):
Walnut Candies , 25c
English Walnut...Maple Walnut.

      Display Ad 3 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Mar 21, 1902.                   p. 4 (1 page):
Maple Walnut Jumbles.

      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Daily Times  (1851-1857).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1855.                   p. 6 (2 pages):
(Furniture--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      MAPLE WALNUT BAVARIAN CREAM.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 29, 1920.                   p. 9 (1 page)

      SOME CHEESE DISHES.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 1, 1917.                   p. FS7 (1 page)

      Display Ad 14 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 16, 1913.                   p. 9 (1 page)

      Display Ad 28 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 23, 1906.                   p. R1 (1 page)

      Display Ad 11 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 14, 1906.                   p. 7 (1 page)

      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 10, 1905.                   p. 4 (1 page)

      Display Ad 10 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 8, 1905.                   p. 7 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 17:56:34 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:56:34 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.135634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
   FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Things for Children to See in the City
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
      Plays
LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87, West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:09:50 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:09:50 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <196D8123.09B0D7D1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.140950.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
from early 50s) is

Liar, liar, pants on fire
Nose as long as a telephone wire.

Us Louisvillians had no such pome.

dInIs



>    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
>    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>       Things for Children to See in the City
>               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
>N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
>       Plays
>LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
>West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 18:15:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:15:27 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.141527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?



Search Result 1
 From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"

 This is the only article in this thread

 View: Original Format
 Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the Oxford English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909 gramophone recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest citation.  Uncle Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is wrong about the 1909 date, i.e.,

"The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several infamous errors,
which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's origin.  Even
the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also two French
dictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand Larousse
Dictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908 use.  These
are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed. David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>

And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now reigning 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:

"I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of the American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other members, Prof. Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a newsletter he publishes to the history of the word 'jazz.'  Some months ago he sent several messages to ADS-L demonstrating that the record that's the source of the OED's 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version recorded in the late 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved in a discussion about the correct dates of the citations in the French dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91 page survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol. 32, #4-5 (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is interested in it, it may be bought from him at the Dept. of Applied Arts and Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at Rolla, Rolla, Missouri, 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost will probably be about $8 or $10; it's an installment of a new
s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."

_______________________________________
Kent Underwood
Music Librarian, New York University
Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
Voice:  212-998-2523
Fax:  212-995-4794
Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012



----- Original Message -----
From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")

> My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> but baseball pitching.
>
> Here are the citations:
>
> BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> simply can't do anything with it."
> As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
>
> [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:40:33 2003
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:40:33 -0500
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <200309081800.h88I0jC08488@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.134033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.


The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
the telephone wire".

Jim Parish


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:54:02 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:54:02 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <3F5C86D1.31803.1B3A11E@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.145402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).

dInIs



>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>
>
>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>the telephone wire".
>
>Jim Parish

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:58:17 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:58:17 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a0501040abb82809cbf18@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.145817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>
>dInIs

another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
nicely graphic

"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
"...hanging from a telephone wire"

But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
wonder?

L

>
>
>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>
>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>
>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>
>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>
>>
>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>the telephone wire".
>>
>>Jim Parish
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 19:32:46 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:32:46 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.153246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see that a sentence in my portion of Kent's message to the Music Librarians group was marred by careless cutting and pasting on my part.  Just the same, I hope that it will be understood that the CoE issue is a 91 page history of >the word< "jazz", and that the posting will bring Gerry some orders from music libraries.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, September 8, 2003 2:15 pm
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"

>   Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?
>
>
>
> Search Result 1
> From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
> Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"
>
> This is the only article in this thread
>
> View: Original Format
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
> Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
> Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the Oxford
> English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909 gramophone
> recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest citation.  Uncle
> Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is wrong about the 1909
> date, i.e.,
>
> "The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several infamous
> errors,which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's
> origin.  Even
> the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
> term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
> Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
> pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also two
> Frenchdictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand
> LarousseDictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908
> use.  These
> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed. David
> Walton (1997-2003)<" target="l">http://www.wordorigins.org>
>
> And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now reigning
> 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:
>
> "I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of the
> American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other members, Prof.
> Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a newsletter he publishes
> to the history of the word 'jazz.'  Some months ago he sent
> several messages to ADS-L demonstrating that the record that's the
> source of the OED's 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version
> recorded in the late 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved
> in a discussion about the correct dates of the citations in the
> French dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are
> excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91 page
> survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol. 32, #4-5
> (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is interested in it,
> it may be bought from him at the Dept. of Applied Arts and
> Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at Rolla, Rolla, Missouri,
> 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost will probably be about $8 or
> $10; it's an installment of a new
> s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
> Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
> Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")
>
> > My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> > Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> > the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> > April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> > story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> > As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> > but baseball pitching.
> >
> > Here are the citations:
> >
> > BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> > Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> > tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> > simply can't do anything with it."
> > As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> > get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> > new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> > unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> > what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> > LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
> >
> > [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> > by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> > Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> > each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> > strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> > also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> > ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > Kent Underwood
> > Music Librarian, New York University
> > Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> > Voice:  212-998-2523
> > Fax:  212-995-4794
> > Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
> >
>


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Sep  8 18:48:15 2003
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:48:15 -0400
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.144815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
particular dialect?

D


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Sep  8 21:24:57 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:24:57 -0500
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.162457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the searching secret for NewspaperArchive.com?  Using advanced
search on the exact phrase or name 'everyday low prices' in all papers in
all years I got responses only back to 1962.  Limiting the years from 1759
to 1945 yielded zero hits.  Limiting from 1900-1930 also yielded zero hits,
as did limiting from 1920-1930.  Only when I searched for the exact date Feb
23 1928 did I get two hits--both on what seem to be the same instance in the
same paper.  Does my not being a member affect the search procedure?  There
is no notice to that effect that I can find.

--Clai Rice

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)

[snip]

   23 February 1928, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5?, col. 4:
Everyday Low Prices That Prevail Here
(The John Lersch Company.  There are over 1,000 more hits in this
newspaper--ed.)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Sep  8 22:22:56 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:22:56 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
In-Reply-To: <68A96957.3037E12C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.182256.0400.>

I'm less worried about the misspelling of my name than by the claim that I
am six years old.

> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed.
> David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:15 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: FWIW: NYU librarians and "Jazz"
>
>
>    Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?
>
>
>
> Search Result 1
>  From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
> Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"
>
>  This is the only article in this thread
>
>  View: Original Format
>  Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
> Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
> Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the
> Oxford English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909
> gramophone recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest
> citation.  Uncle Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is
> wrong about the 1909 date, i.e.,
>
> "The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several
> infamous errors,
> which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's origin.  Even
> the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
> term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
> Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
> pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also
> two French
> dictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand Larousse
> Dictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908 use.  These
> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed.
> David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>
>
> And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now
> reigning 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:
>
> "I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of
> the American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other
> members, Prof. Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a
> newsletter he publishes to the history of the word 'jazz.'
> Some months ago he sent several messages to ADS-L
> demonstrating that the record that's the source of the OED's
> 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version recorded in the late
> 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved in a discussion
> about the correct dates of the citations in the French
> dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are
> excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91
> page survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol.
> 32, #4-5 (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is
> interested in it, it may be bought from him at the Dept. of
> Applied Arts and Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at
> Rolla, Rolla, Missouri, 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost
> will probably be about $8 or $10; it's an installment of a new
> s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
> Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
> Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")
>
> > My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> > Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> > the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> > April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> > story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> > As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> > but baseball pitching.
> >
> > Here are the citations:
> >
> > BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> > Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> > tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> > simply can't do anything with it."
> > As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> > get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> > new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> > unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> > what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> > LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
> >
> > [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> > by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> > Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> > each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> > strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> > also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> > ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > Kent Underwood
> > Music Librarian, New York University
> > Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> > Voice:  212-998-2523
> > Fax:  212-995-4794
> > Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
> >
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Sep  9 00:50:17 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:50:17 -0500
Subject: Visiting scholar from Russia has studied political speech
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.195017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is for ads-l members who are interested in political speech.
A visiting scholar to the US (Professor Elena Bakumova, from Volgograd, Russia)
has recently completed her dissertation on political discourse, and
perhaps an exchange of ideas/information with American scholars would
be mutually beneficial.

    Her dissertation is titled _Role Structure of Political Discourse_
(Volgograd, 2002), and in response to a query of mine she explained
briefly:
"I have written my PhD thesis on the role structure of political
discourse, and that included the analysis of the roles and the types
American and Russian politicians play, and also the analysis of the
political portrait as a genre of political discourse."

    I'm sure she could benefit from the knowledge of ads-l members on
political speech, and we in the US could benefit from the insight
that Russian scholars bring to this subject too.

    Anyone interested may contact her directly (e-mail address:
bakev at yandex.ru).
Her snail-mail address is: Professor Elena Bakumova/School of
American and International Studies, Ramapo College of New Jersey, 505
Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, NY 07430.

Gerald Cohen


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 00:59:15 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:59:15 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.205915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:48 PM -0400 9/8/03, Duane Campbell wrote:
>An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>particular dialect?
>
>D

The former is usually transcribed "innit" and no, it's not unique to
Mamet, his characters, or their (Chicago?  Midwestern?) dialect, as
I'm sure others will note in due course and with more specifics.

L


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep  9 01:21:48 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:21:48 -0400
Subject: "gubernatorial" too hard for TV news
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.212148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Sacramento Bee, last Thursday:

-----
 You won't hear reporters or anchors saying "gubernatorial"
 during the local newscasts on Channel 3 (KCRA) -- not if Dan
 Weiser has his way. (And
 as KCRA's top news boss, he usually does.)

 Weiser recently issued a newsroom memo, instructing station staff to say
 hasta la vista to the word "gubernatorial."

 His reasoning? While journalists may be partial to the word (in
 Wednesday's Bee alone, "gubernatorial" appeared in four stories plus an
 index), rarely does it come up in real-world conversations.

 "We're trying to write in the way that people speak, and few people use
 that word," Weiser says. "Nobody says 'gubernatorial.' They say 'candidate
 for governor' or 'running for governor.' I prefer keeping things as easily
 understandable as possible."
-----

<sigh>

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 01:58:49 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:58:49 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.215849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, some  Louisvillians did have part of the saying.  I checked with my wife,
wives being obviously impeccable sources, who had a random childhood growing up in
Louisville and southern Indiana, for the most part. She confirms that "liar, liar,
pants on fire" was a common saying (perhaps more accurately an accusation), but
without the nose and telephone part.  I who lived my whole first 18 years in
southern Jefferson County, not technically Louisville, used the term regularly.
Sometimes, a river runs through it.

Jim Stalker

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>
> dInIs
>
> >    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
> >    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
> >
> >
> >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> >       Things for Children to See in the City
> >               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
> >N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
> >       Plays
> >LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
> >West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Sep  9 01:57:20 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:57:20 -0700
Subject: Speech Accent Archive - 264 speech samples and accents
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFIEDHGNAA.vida@direct.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.185720.0700.>

I haven't seen this posted here, this may be of interest:

The Speech Accent Archive has 264 speech samples of accented speech of
speakers from many different language backgrounds reading the same sample
paragraph.

http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 02:10:36 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:10:36 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.221036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Given that the local Louisville version (c. 1950s) that the Stalker household
is familiar with had no telephone wires or noses in the saying, it is possible
that the saying is a curse, derived from older sources and adapted in some
contexts to modern technology in order to make some sense of it (perhaps for
younger, we hope, more innocent children), or lessen the demonology suggested
by the curse.  If you lie, you will live in flames, i. e., the flames of hell.

Jim Stalker

Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> >>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
> >>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
> >
> >dInIs
>
> another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
> version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
> telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
> copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
> nicely graphic
>
> "...hang them up on a telephone wire"
> "...hanging from a telephone wire"
>
> But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
> besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
> trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
> Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
> wonder?
>
> L
>
> >
> >
> >>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> >>
> >>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> >>>  from early 50s) is
> >>>
> >>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
> >>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
> >>>
> >>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
> >>
> >>
> >>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
> >>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
> >>the telephone wire".
> >>
> >>Jim Parish
> >
> >--
> >Dennis R. Preston
> >University Distinguished Professor
> >Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >      Asian & African Languages
> >Michigan State University
> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >phone: (517) 432-3099


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:21:01 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:21:01 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.192101.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Duane:

> An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
> characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
> does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
> Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
> why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
> particular dialect?

I've heard "innit", but not "donit".
Anne G


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:23:13 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:23:13 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.192313.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.

I remember that one, too, early 50's, growing up in an "undistinguished"
Seattle neighborhood. . . What did you have, if anything?
Anne G


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:28:07 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:28:07 -0500
Subject: Speech accent
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.212807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the "speech accents" web site.  Are there any such sites
which have samples of speakers of various American English and/or
British English dialects?

Thanks!

Dr. Patti Kurtz
Assistant Professor, English
Minot State University
Minot, ND 58709


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Sep  9 03:00:25 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:00:25 -0700
Subject: Speech accent
In-Reply-To: <3F5D3AB7.6090208@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.200025.0700.>

Dear Patti,

I found the reference in this subsection of Meme Pool - there are some VERY
interesting topics and links!!

http://www.memepool.com/Subject/Linguistics/

cheers !!

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Patti J. Kurtz
Sent: September 8, 2003 7:28 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Speech accent


Thanks for the "speech accents" web site.  Are there any such sites
which have samples of speakers of various American English and/or
British English dialects?

Thanks!

Dr. Patti Kurtz
Assistant Professor, English
Minot State University
Minot, ND 58709


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  9 05:24:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:24:35 EDT
Subject: Saleratus (1832) & stuff
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.012435.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SALERATUS

   FOOD HISTORY NEWS (FHN 50, Vol. XIII, No. II), had a cover story "Food
History 101: What are Pearlash and Saleratus."  Pg. 6, col. 2:

   _When & how introduced:_  It was knopwn as early as 1837 in the U.S.  Mrs.
Hale's _The Good Housekeeper_, 1839, refers to both pearlash and saleratus.
_Oxford English Dictionary's_ first citation is 1846, where it is described as
"sort of refined pearlash," but by 1848, _Dictionary of American English_
refers to a description of a western lake "encrusted with soda or common
saleratus."

   Can we do better than that?  Oh, of course.

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
The Family Lyceum. Design for Instruction and Entertainment, and Adapted to
Families, Schools and Lyceums (1832-1833). Boston: Aug 25, 1832. Vol. 1, Iss.
2; p. 8 (1 page)
   HOUSEKEEPERS often pour vinegar, or sour cider, upon pearlash or
saleratus, which produces a brisk effervescence.  The bubbles of air thrown off, are
carbonic acid.  When these ingredients are mixed in a pint or quart pitcher or
glass, and the effervescence continued for a few minutes, and a burning candle
or a small paper be inserted, it will be immediately extinguished, showing
that carbonic acid is fatal to combustion.  It is equally fatal to life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
STUFF


NEW-YORK HISTORICAL SOCIETY LIBRARY RE-OPENING SEPTEMBER 23rd--Greg Downing
kindly passed this along.  It has been closed for renovations.


WORD WIZARD--"Word Wizard" John Morse, publisher of Merriam-Webster's 11th,
will be at the Border's bookstore on my block (East 57th Street) on Monday,
September 15th, at 6:30 p.m.  To M-W:  Is he really a wizard?  Why isn't he a
word maven?  Do you have to do anything special to be a wizard?


WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM--It was posted:

What is the searching secret for NewspaperArchive.com?  Using advanced
search on the exact phrase or name 'everyday low prices' in all papers in
all years I got responses only back to 1962.  Limiting the years from 1759
to 1945 yielded zero hits.  Limiting from 1900-1930 also yielded zero hits,
as did limiting from 1920-1930...

   I've been having problems, too.  I get zero hits on stuff I darn well know
there are hits for.  So I try it again and again, and go back and re-start
the process, and sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn't.  The bottom
line is, the technology sucks here .You just try to do your best with it.


"WINDY CITY" WEB PAGE ADDITION--The 11 September 1886 CHICAGO TRIBUNE article
that I'd found seven years ago and sent many times to the TRIBUNE will be
added to the site.  It didn't scan well, and I've been switching Columbia copiers
and going out to the Village Copier and re-scanning the thing all day.  Let
me repeat: nothing is ever easy.


MISTAKES--Andrew Smith insists that I misrepresented him here.  His e-mail to
me earlier this year was intended to be helpful, and pointed out mild
"mistakes," like proper cover letters and that sort of stuff.  I just extended the
"mistake" philosophy; he in no way referred to my late parents or my autistic
nephew.   I apologize if that was inferred or implied.
   It's been a frustrating summer.  That's all that was meant by the CHICAGO
TRIBUNE "Windy City myth yet again" post.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:17:27 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:27 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <p04320411bb8280255479@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.071727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

L,

Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
however!)

dInIs

>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>
>>dInIs
>
>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>nicely graphic
>
>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>
>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>wonder?
>
>L
>
>>
>>
>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>
>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>
>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>
>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>
>>>
>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>the telephone wire".
>>>
>>>Jim Parish
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>      Asian & African Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:25:26 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:25:26 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.072526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I have "long" (or geminate) /n/'s in both (in rapid speech,
in more careful speech, I have /dn/, with a strong coarticulated
nasal component on the /d/). Eventually a (near?) total assimilation
process takes whatever is left of the homorgancally produced /d/ and
merges it with the /n/.

This is not as class-bound as one would think in much of the Upper or
Low- and Highland Appalachian South, though it appears to be a bit
more stratified in Costal Southerns.

What leaps out at me is the obviously incorrect pronunciation of
"isn't," "wasn't," and "doesn't" without a /d/ (or "long" /n/). Heard
it, used at all my life; so did everybody around me for miles and
miles (and miles). Surprised D ain't come acrost it before.

dInIs





An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
particular dialect?

D

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:41:09 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:41:09 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <3F5D33D9.9316A18D@msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.074109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Stalker is right; I am, as inner-circle friends know, a bogus
Louisvillian, being from the Indiana suburb of Loiusville known as
"New Albany," though I grew up miles closer to (but a river apart
from) downtown Louisville than Jim did. I apologize for suggesting
the absence of this folk ditty in the Falls City (although, as Jim
notes, the second line is still missing from more authentic
Louisvillian memory.

dInIs

>Well, some  Louisvillians did have part of the saying.  I checked
>with my wife,
>wives being obviously impeccable sources, who had a random childhood
>growing up in
>Louisville and southern Indiana, for the most part. She confirms
>that "liar, liar,
>pants on fire" was a common saying (perhaps more accurately an
>accusation), but
>without the nose and telephone part.  I who lived my whole first 18 years in
>southern Jefferson County, not technically Louisville, used the term
>regularly.
>Sometimes, a river runs through it.
>
>Jim Stalker
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>
>>  dInIs
>>
>>  >    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering
>>about a dating.
>>  >    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>>  >       Things for Children to See in the City
>>  >               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
>>  >N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
>>  >       Plays
>>  >LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
>>  >West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.
>>
>>  --
>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>  University Distinguished Professor
>>  Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>        Asian & African Languages
>>  Michigan State University
>>  East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>  e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>  phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:36:32 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:36:32 -0500
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.083632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
coined the term "Anthropocene."

Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
of the "Anthropocene."
A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
But it seems to have stuck.

(p.47, col 1)

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:38:25 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:38:25 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a05010410bb836c24511a@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.063825.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Growing up in Salt Lake City, 50's:

Li-ur, li-ur, yur pants'r on fi-ur
Yur nose is as long as a telephone wi-ur.




=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:50:58 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:50:58 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <006001c37679$040fca90$f6d64b43@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.065058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Anne Gilbert <avavgilbertRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> Duane:
>
... and "done
> it" for "doesn it."
...

> I've heard "init" but not "donit"
> Anne G

"Donit" is for "don't it", not "doesn it".  I hear
this all the time - in movies, on TV, in daily speech.
 Much, much more common, to my hearing anyway, than "init".

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 14:00:14 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:00:14 -0400
Subject: Saleratus (1832) & stuff
In-Reply-To: <b0.3e247d05.2c8ebe13@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.100014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 9 Sep 2003, at 1:24, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> To M-W:  Is he really a wizard?  Why isn't he a
> word maven?  Do you have to do anything special to be a wizard?

President, Publisher, wizard, word maven, you name it -- John
wears a lot of hats.  I don't know what the official requirements are
for wizardry, but John works from about 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. every day
and usually comes in on weekends as well, so I suspect it involves
more than a wave of the wand. The real question in my mind is,
how does he stay so damned cheerful?


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 14:51:10 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:51:10 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a0501040bbb8366d110d1@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.105110.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:17 AM -0400 9/9/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>L,
>
>Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
>have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
>however!)
>
>dInIs

Liar, liar, pants on fire
Nose is longer than a copper telephone wire

--monosyllabic "liar", "fire" and "wire" doesn't help.  Now if
"copper" and "telephone" are monosyllabic too, you're talking
scansion.  The versions below without "copper" would be fine
(metrically), or the copper-free version we began with.

>
>>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>>
>>>dInIs
>>
>>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>>nicely graphic
>>
>>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>>
>>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>>wonder?
>>
>>L
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>>
>>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>>the telephone wire".
>>>>
>>>>Jim Parish
>>>
>>>--
>>>Dennis R. Preston
>>>University Distinguished Professor
>>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>>      Asian & African Languages
>>>Michigan State University
>>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>>phone: (517) 432-3099
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep  9 15:24:02 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:24:02 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.112402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>particular dialect?
>
>D
~~~~~~~~~~
I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,  but
don't remember "dunnit."  [Often affected by middle class youth when
"common" became chic.]
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 17:10:57 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:10:57 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030909135058.56109.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.131057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nope. "doesn't it" also becomes "donnit" through the well-known
/z/---> /d/ (see "business" -----> ) rule and subsequent assimilation
processes I laid out earlier.

dInIs




--- Anne Gilbert <avavgilbertRODIGY.NET> wrote:
>  Duane:
>
... and "done
>  it" for "doesn it."
...

>  I've heard "init" but not "donit"
>  Anne G

"Donit" is for "don't it", not "doesn it".  I hear
this all the time - in movies, on TV, in daily speech.
  Much, much more common, to my hearing anyway, than "init".

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                                |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 17:15:04 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:15:04 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bb83986a8825@[130.132.245.233]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.131504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's why I prefer "Nose as long as a telephone wire"

The whole thing scans as follows:

X X X x X
X x X x X x X

LAR LAR PANTS on FAR

NOSE as LONGS a TEL phone WAR

4 beats per line.

Nace.

dInIs





>At 7:17 AM -0400 9/9/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>L,
>>
>>Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
>>have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
>>however!)
>>
>>dInIs
>
>Liar, liar, pants on fire
>Nose is longer than a copper telephone wire
>
>--monosyllabic "liar", "fire" and "wire" doesn't help.  Now if
>"copper" and "telephone" are monosyllabic too, you're talking
>scansion.  The versions below without "copper" would be fine
>(metrically), or the copper-free version we began with.
>
>>
>>>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>>>
>>>>dInIs
>>>
>>>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>>>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>>>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>>>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>>>nicely graphic
>>>
>>>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>>>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>>>
>>>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>>>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>>>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>>>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>>>wonder?
>>>
>>>L
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>>>the telephone wire".
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim Parish
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Dennis R. Preston
>>>>University Distinguished Professor
>>>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>>>      Asian & African Languages
>>>>Michigan State University
>>>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>>>phone: (517) 432-3099
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>      Asian & African Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From indigo at WELL.COM  Tue Sep  9 07:08:33 2003
From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:08:33 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.000833.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Marin County CA, 70s, we had:
Liar, liar, pants on fire
Sittin on a telephone wire.



>dInIs:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>  > Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
--
Indigo Som
indigo at well.com
www.indigosom.com

Fetishes of the month: Mars, & naked lady amaryllis


From indigo at WELL.COM  Tue Sep  9 07:10:21 2003
From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:10:21 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.001021.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sherman Alexie (poet, novelist, filmmaker) uses "enit" extensively.
For him it's a Native American (or American Indian, take your pick)
thing.

>Duane:
>
>>  An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>>  characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>>  does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>>  Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>>  why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>  > particular dialect?
>
>I've heard "innit", but not "donit".
>Anne G

--
Indigo Som
indigo at well.com
www.indigosom.com

Fetishes of the month: Mars, & naked lady amaryllis


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Tue Sep  9 17:53:45 2003
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:53:45 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <20030909133825.16524.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.105345.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the one we had when I was growing up in So. California in the 60's

Patty

At 06:38 AM 9/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Growing up in Salt Lake City, 50's:
>
>Li-ur, li-ur, yur pants'r on fi-ur
>Yur nose is as long as a telephone wi-ur.
>
>
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Sep  9 19:21:15 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:21:15 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.152115.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello all,


What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
form having to try to supply power."
(Bloomberg)

He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
manager Joe Torre as Torres.

I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?

Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:00:30 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:00:30 -0500
Subject: Crab Boil & Fish Boil & Shrimp Boil (1959)
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.150030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some preliminary results from NewspaperArchives.com gets earlier citations
for all three terms.  Since I don't have a subscription I can't confirm the
larger contexts, though they kindly provide a little snapshot of half a
column width that helps ascertain that the terms are the ones we are looking
for.  Barry or some other subscriber will have to verify them:

CRAB BOIL:
News, Frederick, Maryland, Wed. 18 March 1896

...to a July oyster roast, ... "grand crab boil" is in the air

SHRIMP BOIL:
Chronicle Telegram, Elyria, Ohio, Mon 27 June 1949

...regional specialties as low c... shrimp boil, gumbo, blac...

FISH BOIL:
Sheboygan Press, Sheboygan, Wisconsin, Mon, 26 July 1954
...will proceed north...Michigan, stopping...Park for a fish boil...


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:14:20 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:14:20 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.161420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen E. Miller said:
>Hello all,
>
>
>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."
>(Bloomberg)
>
>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>
>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>
>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.

Maybe he thinks it sounds folksy.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:28:38 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:28:38 -0500
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.152838.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this is possibly just an extreme generalization of the "rule"
that says longer utterances always make the speaker sound smarter or
more important. He's just extending it to words, and since there are
only a few ways to make individual words longer, he settled on
unnecessary pluralization.

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com

>Hello all,
>
>
>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."
>(Bloomberg)
>
>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>
>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>
>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>
>Kathleen E. Miller
>Research Assistant to William Safire
>The New York Times


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:31:33 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:31:33 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <p06002006bb83e4ff3fea@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.163133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If that's the case, Bloomberg's speech contrasts in an interesting
way with that of Mario Cuomo, who, as I recall, wasn't afraid to use
an expressions like "mirabila dictu"!

O tempora, o mores...



On 9 Sep 2003, at 16:14, Alice Faber wrote:

> Kathleen E. Miller said:
> >Hello all,
> >
> >
> >What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
> >man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
> >took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
> >have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
> >form having to try to supply power."
> >(Bloomberg)
> >
> >He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
> >manager Joe Torre as Torres.
> >
> >I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
> >
> >Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>
> Maybe he thinks it sounds folksy.
> --
> ==============================================================================
> Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
> Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
> New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:34:18 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:34:18 -0400
Subject: Correction
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.163418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I meant "mirabile dictu."  And "expression."

Sorry,

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:53:51 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:53:51 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.165351.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:14 PM 9/9/2003 -0400, Kathleen wrote:
>For example, ""It appears an event
> >took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
> >have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
> >form having to try to supply power."

Since we're all recalling our childhood (rhymes and all) I should mention
that the pluralization of 'ways' is, I believe, widespread (i.e. not
limited to New York City).  Standard Canadian colloquial English (at least
in my youth) included constructions such as 'You've got a long ways to go
before ...'  It may not be exactly a plural (note the use of the singular
indefinite article).

Geoff


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep  9 21:08:57 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:08:57 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.170857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
  >Kathleen E. Miller
 ~~~~~~~~~~
I hear "alls" a lot, and the  other day noticed that someone, in writing
dialogue, spelled it "all's" which made me wonder if could be /all as/: not
that /as/ is needed, but it might somehow feel right to the speaker. Maybe
/s/  is insinuating itself into speech by some such route.
A. Murie


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Tue Sep  9 21:55:48 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:48 +0000
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.215548.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
place-name is:          b'nEld
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Tue Sep  9 21:35:50 2003
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:35:50 -0400
Subject: War of words
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.173550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>From the Guardian:

Fed up with the language of Goethe being corrupted with additions such as
"die kiddies" and "der call centre", Germany's politicians are proposing to
ban civil servants from using "Denglish" - German mixed with English - in
the workplace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1038580,00.html


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep  9 22:14:42 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:14:42 -0700
Subject: Benld
In-Reply-To: <200309092108.h89L8ud3010195@mtac2.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.151442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Professor Peter Trudgill <peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH> asked:

>Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
>highly improbable spelling of BENLD?

According to:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmacoup/m_cahok.htm

Illinois Place Names book:
Benld est 21 Mar 1904, Inc as a city 30 Jul 1904

Benld was named for Ben L. Dorsey.

and according to:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ILMACOUP/2002-09/1032526817

(supported by a few other web sites) Mr. Dorsey was the town's
founder; the latter page also says the town's name was originally
pronounced "ben-el-dee."

John

--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Sep  9 22:15:51 2003
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:15:51 -0500
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.171551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Without any knowledge of this particular place name: there was a postal law
that there could not be two of the same name in any given state, back when
all correspondence was by snail mail, towns would get tired of trying to
come up with a unique placename, and after two or three trys and rejections
taking several months, would  just make up something.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Trudgill" <peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Benld


> Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
> highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
> improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
> place-name is:          b'nEld
> --
> Peter Trudgill
> Professor of English Linguistics
> Fribourg University
> Av. de l'Europe 20
> 1700 Fribourg
> Switzerland
>
> Telephone (UK):
> 01603 618036
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 23:32:26 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:32:26 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <a051003aebb83e725b06e@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.193226.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:28 PM -0500 9/9/03, Erin McKean wrote:
>I think this is possibly just an extreme generalization of the "rule"
>that says longer utterances always make the speaker sound smarter or
>more important. He's just extending it to words, and since there are
>only a few ways to make individual words longer, he settled on
>unnecessary pluralization.
>
>Erin
>editor at verbatimmag.com

There is a tendency to extend utterances to achieve pomposity, as
noted by Aristotle (he calls it "oikos") and a few others since, and
that's what Orwell was after in his ridicule of the not un-
construction ("One can cure oneself of the not un  formation by
memorizing this sentence:  A not unblack dog was chasing a not
unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field"), but I don't that that's
what's going on with Bloomberg.  In fact, I don't think there's one
single factor involved here.  I agree with Geoff Nathan that the
"ways" below is not a true plural, but an informal variant that shows
up in e.g. "It's down there a ways", although that's a different
context from the one below.  The "moneys" I assume is from
Bloomberg's earlier incarnation as a financial honcho--I've never
understood when it's used, but it's used in financial circles--they
talk about mingling moneys from different sources and such.  I
haven't heard him refer to Joe Torre as Torres, but Bloomberg isn't
the Yankee fan Giuliani was (nor the Italian), and assuming he wasn't
just pandering to the Hispanic vote, this was probably a simple
mistake.  This one is not pluralization in any case.  Nor is
Bloomberg, admittedly no great public speaker, someone who seems in
general concerned with trying to pump himself up or make himself
appear smarter or more important, at least as far as I've seen.

Larry

>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>
>>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>>form having to try to supply power."
>>(Bloomberg)
>>
>>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>>
>>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>>
>>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>>
>>Kathleen E. Miller
>>Research Assistant to William Safire
>>The New York Times


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Sep  9 23:48:33 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:48:33 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <3F5E0065.7985.BA45F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.194833.0400.>

> If that's the case, Bloomberg's speech contrasts in an interesting
> way with that of Mario Cuomo, who, as I recall, wasn't afraid to use
> an expressions like "mirabila dictu"!
>
> O tempora, o mores...

Cuomo, son of immigrants and a kid who grew up in the working class streets
of NYC, could get away with Latin exclamations. He didn't have to sound
folksy; his street creds were well established.

Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the other
hand...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 00:09:30 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:09:30 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bb83eef69bc2@[12.107.146.236]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.200930.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Must we do this again. Yes, it is "as," and 'as' was one of the
competing complementizers in earlier Englishes. It means no more (or
less) than "All that...". It is a relic, not an innovation. It is not
related to the other -s forms under discussion here (although I do
not mean to suggest that they are related eieter).

dInIs



>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
   >Kathleen E. Miller
  ~~~~~~~~~~
I hear "alls" a lot, and the  other day noticed that someone, in writing
dialogue, spelled it "all's" which made me wonder if could be /all as/: not
that /as/ is needed, but it might somehow feel right to the speaker. Maybe
/s/  is insinuating itself into speech by some such route.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 10 00:08:34 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:08:34 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.200834.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."

I don't know ... but many persons would say "down the road a ways" etc.
Maybe from an old plural or genitive?

>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary)

A legal version ... maybe he thinks it sounds cool or in-the-know?

>and referred to Yankee manager Joe Torre as Torres.

No mystery here since Torres is a common last name and Torre is uncommon:
Torres is at least about 100 times as frequent as Torre in the US, I believe.

-- Doug Wilson


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 22:30:21 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:30:21 -0700
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.153021.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erin McKean" <editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:36 AM
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"


> There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
> Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
> coined the term "Anthropocene."
>
> Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
> of the "Anthropocene."
> A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
> about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
> end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
> past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
> planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
> the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
> But it seems to have stuck.
>
> (p.47, col 1)
>
> Erin McKean
> editor at verbatimmag.com
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 10 01:17:26 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:17:26 -0400
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.211726.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This may well be correct.  The earliest cite I've seen, an article in Science on 13 Oct 2000, puts "Anthropocene" in quotes and itself cites "P. Crutzen and E. Stoermer, IGBP Newsl. 41, 17 (2000)."  (The citation practice used in Science means that the article appears at volume 41, page 17 of the IGBP Newsletter.)

John Baker


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erin McKean" <editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:36 AM
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"


> There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
> Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
> coined the term "Anthropocene."
>
> Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
> of the "Anthropocene."
> A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
> about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
> end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
> past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
> planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
> the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
> But it seems to have stuck.
>
> (p.47, col 1)
>
> Erin McKean
> editor at verbatimmag.com
>


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:17:04 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:17:04 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.191704.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Duane:

> Sherman Alexie (poet, novelist, filmmaker) uses "enit" extensively.
> For him it's a Native American (or American Indian, take your pick)
> thing.

Well, I never heard "innit", from a Native American(but then, I haven't
heard that many Native Americans)


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:49:20 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:49:20 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <005c01c37741$a0f47220$024aa043@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.224920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suppose "innit" = "isn't it", "donit" = "don't it", "dunnit" = "doesn't
it", "wunnit" = "wasn't it", etc. are often just "eye-dialect". These
pronunciations seem pretty widespread. "Enit" might be "ain't it"? I
suppose these pronunciations occur unstressed usually ... I wouldn't expect
"That innit!" for "That isn't it!" ... and especially in 'question tags'
(e.g., "This Welsh roti's good, innit?").

-- Doug Wilson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 10 03:06:59 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:06:59 -0400
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.230659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The story goes that this was how Sano, Kentucky, came to be named:  Initial efforts to get a post office approved were unsuccessful because the proposed names were already taken, and the residents finally decided just to try "Say no," "because that's what they always do."  To their surprise, it worked.

        It's too good a story to check (and anyway, there's no listing for Sano in Kentucky Place Names).  However, Sano, which is a few miles from my birthplace in Kentucky, is indeed pronounced "say no."  There is no longer a post office there.


John Baker 
        

-----Original Message----- 
From: paulzjoh [mailto:paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:16 PM 
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Benld 


Without any knowledge of this particular place name: there was a postal law 
that there could not be two of the same name in any given state, back when 
all correspondence was by snail mail, towns would get tired of trying to 
come up with a unique placename, and after two or three trys and rejections 
taking several months, would  just make up something. 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 10 03:08:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:08:10 -0400
Subject: Pushout (1965) ("not a dropout")
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.230810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From Nat Hentoff in this week's VILLAGE VOICE:


 http://villagevoice.com/issues/0337/hentoff.php
But the chief indictment of Klein's chancellorship was displayed for all to see in the July 31 and August 1 New York Times front-page stories "To Cut Failure Rate, Schools Shed Students" and "High School Under Scrutiny for Giving Up on Its Students."

 The ever vigilant Carl Campanile of the New York Post broke the pushout story last November 9. The Times should enter its pieces by Tamar Lewin and Jennifer Medina for a Pulitzer, and the Post should submit Campanile's reporting as well.


    OED's first citation is the 1970 BRITANNICA BOOK OF THE YEAR (1969).


(ANCESTRY.COM)
    9 August 1965, CHILICOTHE CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg. 8, col. 1:
    Adam Clayton Powell, the Harlem globe-trotter, boviously enjoyed presiding over his committee on education and labor when it dug into Chicago's explosive school system.
    Martin Luther King, who had been demonstrating against Chicago School Superintendent Benjamin Willis, prodded Powell into conducting these hearings.  Powell, however, needed no real prodding and promptly called Prof. Philip Hauser, an anti-Willis witness, who stated that 95 per cent of the students were promoted whether they deserved to be or not.
    "I would call that a pushout, not a dropout," interrupted Powell.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      DROPOUT RECRUITS OTHERS FOR WORK
       By JOSEPH A. LOFTUS Special to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 20, 1965.                   p. 41 (1 page):
   Not a dropout, but a pushout, as Eddie described it.

      A DROPOUT STUDY BLAMES SCHOOLS
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Nov 24, 1966.                   p. 58 (1 page):
   "The term dropout might often be changed to pushout," said Dr. Robert Vintet, associate dean of the university's School of Social Work.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Now it's the school 'pushout'
       By John Dillin Staff correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Dec 3, 1973.                   p. 6 (1 page)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:48:05 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:48:05 -0500
Subject: Benld
In-Reply-To: <p05200f02bb83fc036bb9@[81.152.233.136]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.214805.0500.>

Benld is 48 miles south of Springfield on I55.  I lived in Springfield for
six years and Champaign for 5, drove I55 to St. Louis often, and don't
remember the town at all.

Herb Stahlke



Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
place-name is:          b'nEld
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Sep 10 04:17:53 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:17:53 -0700
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.211753.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the
other
> hand...
>
Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?


From e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Sep 10 05:35:41 2003
From: e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:35:41 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.013541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a link to a Bloomberg biography.

http://home.nyc.gov/portal/index.jsp?pageID=nyc_mayor_bio&catID=1194

Enid Pearsons

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Colburn" <colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: First query after vacation


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       David Colburn <colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM>
> Subject:      Re: First query after vacation
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the
> other
> > hand...
> >
> Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
>


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Sep 10 11:24:12 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:12 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <006901c37752$8292fac0$f4fb1fcc@ibmaa0051d>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.072412.0400.>

> > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
> family, on the
> other
> > hand...
> >
> Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?

No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 12:02:38 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:02:38 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030909224115.04f4a650@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.080238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).

I note, however, that "eye-diaelct" has increasingly come to mean
"spellings which reflect dialect." I ain't against language change,
but we appear to be in the midst of it here with a chance for real
misunderstanding.

In the AS article mentioned above I used the neutral term
"respellings" to refer to both.

Several interesting studies of respellings appear in a recent special
issue of JofS (Journal of Sociolinguistics 4,4:614-21).

dInIs (not "eye-dialect" in the strict [older? obsolescent?] sense)









I suppose "innit" = "isn't it", "donit" = "don't it", "dunnit" = "doesn't
it", "wunnit" = "wasn't it", etc. are often just "eye-dialect". These
pronunciations seem pretty widespread. "Enit" might be "ain't it"? I
suppose these pronunciations occur unstressed usually ... I wouldn't expect
"That innit!" for "That isn't it!" ... and especially in 'question tags'
(e.g., "This Welsh roti's good, innit?").

-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:20:03 2003
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:20:03 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.082003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes:

>I note, however, that "eye-diaelct" has increasingly come to mean
>"spellings which reflect dialect." I ain't against language change,
>but we appear to be in the midst of it here with a chance for real
>misunderstanding.

>In the AS article mentioned above I used the neutral term
>"respellings" to refer to both.

>Several interesting studies of respellings appear in a recent special
>issue of JofS (Journal of Sociolinguistics 4,4:614-21).

>dInIs (not "eye-dialect" in the strict [older? obsolescent?] sense)

You forgit "KOHrect" "SAY ense".

Regards
David

Barnhart at highlands.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 10 13:33:25 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:33:25 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <001601c3778e$103388a0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.093325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:24 AM -0400 9/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote:
>  > > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
>>  family, on the
>>  other
>>  > hand...
>>  >
>>  Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
>
>No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
>definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
>wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.

Well, there is a bit of an inconsistency here; if Bloomberg's
biosketch is right, he's the son of a bookkeeper for a dairy and he
"parked cars and took out loans to finance his education" at Johns
Hopkins.  That doesn't fit my definition of "scion of a wealthy
family" no matter how much stretching is done to notions of "well to
do".  Of course, the claim may be that the information on the web
site Enid linked us to is all phony and that his father actually
owned the dairy, but it does seem unlikely that a wealthy young man
whose parents were helping support him would have taken out a loan
and spent his college parking cars on the side for fun...

L


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 17:14:25 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:14:25 -0400
Subject: "jazzer", 1896
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.131425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just So with Everybody.  From the Roxbury Gazette.
Gozlin – Do you know there are times when I don’t like to go up in the elevator in our building?
Jazzer – No, when?
Gozlin – Why, when I am going down in it, of course.
        The Washington Post, April 12, 1896. p. 28, col. 7.  From the Proquest Historical Newspapers file.

The joke is certainly mirth-provoking, but does it help obfuscate the history of the word "jazz"?

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Sep 10 17:26:34 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:26:34 -0400
Subject: Blacklist vs. Blocklist
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.132634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It appears the anti-spam community has been consciously moving toward
using "blocklist" instead of "blacklist" when referring to a list of
offending domains, servers or IP address which belong to or are used by
known spammers.

The two words are, as far as I can see, used interchangeably, often in
the same message. "Blocklist" is apparently being actively promoted
instead of blacklist because of what some folks see as excessively
negative connotations with "blacklist," with the McCarthy hearings
usually coming to mind. Interestingly, the antonym, no matter which is
used, seems to still be "whitelist."

A relevant post on the Spamcop email list:
http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-list/2003-February/032187.html

An entry at SpamNews, from May 2003:
http://spamnews.com/blog/spamNEWS/C740927464/E76461799/

Usenet post about the terminology from 2001
http://groups.google.com/
groups?selm=3b9d0034.14112933%40localhost&output=gplain

This came to my attention because in March I installed SpamAssassin for
a client and do not remember encountering "blocklist" at all in any of
the supporting materials or on any of the web sites I read for
assistance. Yet, during the last two weeks--just six months later--I've
installed SpamAssassin for a different client, and I seemed to
encounter "blocklist" everywhere.

A quick Google News search for blacklist and spam shows that blocklist
has been in use for years by the anti-spam forces, but that it its use
has rapidly increased in the last 18 months. The usual caveats about
the accuracy of such searches apply.

9/10/2002-9/10/2003--13,100 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2002-9/10/2003--3010 hits for blocklist & spam

9/10/2001-9/10/2002--7840 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2001-9/10/2002--2100 hits for blocklist & spam

9/10/2000-9/10/2001--3680 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2000-9/10/2001--95 hits for blocklist & spam


Cheers,

Grant



--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org
American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Sep 10 17:34:01 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:34:01 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <a05010401bb84c12cb98c@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.133401.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
#cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
#spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
#Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
#which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
#speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
#quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
#years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).

Not to disagree with your intention, but with the way you've expressed
it: "sez" certainly does reflect pronunciation, and better than the
standard spelling "says" does -- i.e., hewing more closely to the
regularities of English spelling, in a way that a poorly educated native
speaker might produce. Would you say that THAT is what defines
eye-dialect?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Sep 10 17:36:02 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:36:02 -0700
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bb84d73f8517@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.103602.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>:

> At 7:24 AM -0400 9/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote:
> >  > > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
> >>  family, on the
> >>  other
> >>  > hand...
> >>  >
> >>  Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
> >
> >No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
> >definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
> >wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.
>
> Well, there is a bit of an inconsistency here; if Bloomberg's
> biosketch is right, he's the son of a bookkeeper for a dairy and he
> "parked cars and took out loans to finance his education" at Johns
> Hopkins.  That doesn't fit my definition of "scion of a wealthy
> family" no matter how much stretching is done to notions of "well to
> do".  Of course, the claim may be that the information on the web
> site Enid linked us to is all phony and that his father actually
> owned the dairy, but it does seem unlikely that a wealthy young man
> whose parents were helping support him would have taken out a loan
> and spent his college parking cars on the side for fun...

First, consider the source. This is Bloomberg's official political bio as mayor
of NYC. It should not be considered "phony," (it is almost certainly absolutely
true in a technical sense) but we should also recognize that the bio has
been "spun" to achieve the desired political effect.

What was this dairy that his father worked for? How large was it? Was his
father an employee or was he a CPA in private practice who had a large dairy as
a client among other corporate clients?

The bio does not detail the extent of the college loans. 1958 was the start of
the federal student loan programs (the National Defense Student Loan program
was started in response to Sputnik). His Dad, the accountant, may have
recognized the value of a guaranteed, low-interest loan even if they could have
paid the tuition without it. Bloomberg would have been in on the early years of
this program.

Nor does the bio state what he did with the money he earned parking cars. Did
it go to tuition or was it beer money?

Even well off kids get student loans and work summer jobs.

Everything I have read about Bloomberg (which admittedly is not a great deal)
indicates that he had a privileged, upper-middle-class upbringing. Not
fabulously wealthy, but comfortable.

Still, none of this really has anything to do with the original point.
Billionaire Bloomberg will take care not to appear aloof and upper class in the
way he speaks. He is percieved as fabulously wealthy and privileged no matter
what his actual background. One should expect him to attempt "folksy" locutions
and avoid Latin and other "educated" phrases. Other politicians, like Cuomo,
don't have this problem. They can show off their erudition without being
labeled as being born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Wed Sep 10 18:41:10 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:41:10 +0000
Subject: eye-dialect
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.184110.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I immodestly quote from my "A glossary of sociolinguistics" (in the
USA: Oxford U. P., 2003):

"A term used to refer to the representation of nonstandard dialects
in writing, particularly with reference to spellings such as <wot>
for what where the spelling does not actually indicate a
pronunciation difference from that represented by the standard
orthography, but where it rather has the role of simply indicating
that the speaker is using a nonstandard dialect or low prestige
accent. For example, writing <o> instead of <a> in what actually
tells us nothing about the vowel the speaker is supposed to be using
and is probably rather a way of indicating that the speaker is using
a glottal stop at the end of the word rather than [t]."
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:06:10 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:10 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0309101329530.16423388-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.140610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My point is that "sez" does not reflect pronunciation at all in the
influence it has on the reader. Even though the speaker says "sez,"
the "respelling" causes the reader to think that the speaker being
represented by the respelling is dull, uneducated, back-woodsish,
etc..... So eye-dialect (still 'traditionally') is defined as a
respelling which DOES NOT reflect any pronunciation different from
one suggested by the "standard" spelling. I am sure the idea that an
uneducated speaker might use such a spelling may play some part in
the association.

dInIs



>On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
>#cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
>#spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
>#Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
>#which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
>#speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
>#quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
>#years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).
>
>Not to disagree with your intention, but with the way you've expressed
>it: "sez" certainly does reflect pronunciation, and better than the
>standard spelling "says" does -- i.e., hewing more closely to the
>regularities of English spelling, in a way that a poorly educated native
>speaker might produce. Would you say that THAT is what defines
>eye-dialect?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:08:23 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:08:23 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <p05200f03bb851f5c36dd@[81.152.178.67]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.140823.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course I couldn't have sed it better (or 'batter' as everbody
round me here in Michigan sez).

dInIs

>I immodestly quote from my "A glossary of sociolinguistics" (in the
>USA: Oxford U. P., 2003):
>
>"A term used to refer to the representation of nonstandard dialects
>in writing, particularly with reference to spellings such as <wot>
>for what where the spelling does not actually indicate a
>pronunciation difference from that represented by the standard
>orthography, but where it rather has the role of simply indicating
>that the speaker is using a nonstandard dialect or low prestige
>accent. For example, writing <o> instead of <a> in what actually
>tells us nothing about the vowel the speaker is supposed to be using
>and is probably rather a way of indicating that the speaker is using
>a glottal stop at the end of the word rather than [t]."
>--
>Peter Trudgill
>Professor of English Linguistics
>Fribourg University
>Av. de l'Europe 20
>1700 Fribourg
>Switzerland
>
>Telephone (UK):
>01603 618036

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:19:12 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:19:12 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <l03130301bb839e9148a4@[12.107.146.236]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.111912.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I noticed a few years ago that an English friend (an academic who teaches
at Lancaster University) used "innit" as an all-purpose prompt for
confirmation, a la the German "nicht wahr?"  I.e., not merely "That's
funny, innit?" but e.g., "He's crazy...innit?"  There didn't even have to
be a form of "be" in the sentence, though I can't think of a
plausible-sounding example just now.

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:24 AM -0400 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Sep 10 19:40:45 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:40:45 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <200309101849.h8AIn0ZO003759@mxu3.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.124045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now, what surprises me about this is that up until a recent British film,
I had always associated the phrase "innit" with Native American language
patterns in written materials (see Sherman Alexie, for example).  I was so
excited one day when I heard one Native American say to another, "Innit?"
Now I shall have to listen to the "over" accent, or stare, to be certain
of the speaker's background!

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Mamet
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I noticed a few years ago that an English friend (an academic who teaches
> at Lancaster University) used "innit" as an all-purpose prompt for
> confirmation, a la the German "nicht wahr?"  I.e., not merely "That's
> funny, innit?" but e.g., "He's crazy...innit?"  There didn't even have to
> be a form of "be" in the sentence, though I can't think of a
> plausible-sounding example just now.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:24 AM -0400 sagehen
> <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
> > I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Wed Sep 10 21:21:49 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:21:49 +0000
Subject: innit
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.212149.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is an enormous body of literature on the invariant tag innit in
English English, The origin appears to be in London-based
Caribbean-influenced varieties, where it seems to have served
originally as a 'translation' of Caribbean English Creole 'no?".
It is worth noticing that such invariant tags are very common in
areas where English has a history of being learnt as a second
language e.g Welsh English invariant "isn't it?"; broad South African
English "is it?"; West African English "is it?", Indian English
"isn't it?"; Singaporean English "isn't it?/ is it?"

On English English:

Stenström, A-B & G. Andersen. 1996. More trends in teenage talk: a
corpus-based investigation of the discourse items cos and innit.
Synchronic corpus linguistics. Amsterdam: Rodopi.

Krug, M. (1998). British English is developing a new discourse
marker, innit? A study in lexicalisation based on social, regional
and stylistic variation. Arbeiten aus Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
23(2), 145-197.

I GOES YOU HANG IT UP IN YOUR SHOWER, INNIT? HE GOES YEAH. THE USE
AND DEVELOPMENT OF INVARIANT TAGS IN LONDON TEENAGE SPEECH

Gisle Andersen, Department of English, University of Bergen

This paper investigates what seems to be a fairly recent innovation
in the London teenage vernacular - the invariant use of the
constructions 'innit?' and 'is it?'. Originally canonical questions
requiring person-, tense- and number agreement, these constructions
frequently occur as invariant tags in present-day adolescent speech.
Such a development has previously been attested in the Englishes of
Papua New Guinea, Singapore, South Africa etc, and a likely
hypothesis is that we are dealing with an aspect of language crossing
(cf Rampton 1995) in an ethnically diverse urban London.

In my presentation, I intend to outline the various syntactic and
pragmatic functions of the tags 'innit?' and 'is it?', and correlate
these linguistic findings with non-linguistic parameters such as
socioeconomic class, age and location, thus determining whether
sociological factors have a bearing on their distribution. Moreover,
I will attempt to characterise the processes of reanalysis involved
with reference to the theoretical framework of grammaticalisation.
Finally, I want to suggest certain other constructions which are
possible candidates for a similar development.

My study draws on data from The Bergen Corpus of London Teenage
Language (COLT), a 500,000-word corpus collected in 1993.



--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Sep 10 21:44:21 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:44:21 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bb8517790034@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.174421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#My point is that "sez" does not reflect pronunciation at all in the
#influence it has on the reader. Even though the speaker says "sez,"
#the "respelling" causes the reader to think that the speaker being
#represented by the respelling is dull, uneducated, back-woodsish,
#etc..... So eye-dialect (still 'traditionally') is defined as a
#respelling which DOES NOT reflect any pronunciation different from
#one suggested by the "standard" spelling.

Exactly: does not reflect any pronunciation DIFFERENT FROM ONE SUGGESTED
BY THE "STANDARD" SPELLING. Not "do[es] not reflect pronunciation", as
you wrote earlier. "Difference" is part of the definition.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 23:03:16 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:16 -0400
Subject: jazz 1912: Ben Henderson
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.190316.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Below is a biography of Ben Henderson, the baseball player who was quoted in the LATimes in 1912 as using the expression "Jazz Curve".  Since it was compiled through the Proquest Historical Newspapers database, it comes with the usual warnings regarding the many inadequacies of that service.  Still, for the purposes of the history of the word "jazz", a more complete sketch no doubt isn't needed.

BEN HENDERSON

Born in Council Bluffs, Iowa, October 31, 1886; first pitched for Omaha in 1903; pitched for Indianapolis during 1904 & 1905 (LATimes, November 4, 1906).

Star pitcher for Portland Beavers, 1906 Pacific Coast League champions (LATimes, October 3, 1906).

California League, an “outlaw” league, founded in 1907; Henderson and other Pacific Coast League players ignored the reserve clause in their contracts; he signed with Stockton (LATimes, January 21 & March 7, 1907).  The National Association of “organized baseball” blacklisted Henderson and the others (LATimes, May 17, 1907).

He was offered a contract by Toledo of the American Association (LATimes, June 3, 1907), but he “failed to show his usual class, and was released” (LATimes, January 11, 1914).

Played for Stockton in 1908, pitching forty games and winning thirty five; his contract was bought from Portland by the Cleveland “Naps” (LATimes & Washington Post, February 28, 1909).  Boston of the National League claimed a prior deal with Portland, but the claim was rejected by the National Commission (Washington Post, March 2 & March 31, 1909; LATimes, March 31, 1909).  He let this chance “slip through his fingers” (LATimes, January 11, 1914).  At some point during his years with Stockton, he “fell off the water wagon . . . with such eclat that he had to go to a hospital to recuperate” (LATimes, July 7, 1911).

Played for Oakland in the California League in 1910 (LATimes, April 8 & April 23, 1910).

Apparently he was reinstated by the National Commission during the winter of 1911; he was on the roster of the Portland Beavers in the spring of that year (LATimes, March 24, 27, 28 & 30, 1911).

There is a portrait of Henderson in the middle of his pitching motion, with the caption “Pitcher who has been taken from Portland by the National Commission” (LATimes, April 9, 1911).  [I do not know what this refers to.]  He pitched and won his first game of the season, hit a home run and a double (LATimes, April 24, 1911).

He disappeared, having apparently been benched for some “lapse”; is referred to as the “Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty” (LATimes, July 7, 1911).  [I can’t explain this; the California League had “$1600 salary limit” (LATimes, January 12, 1910) and he had no bargaining leverage with Portland, other than by refusing to play at all.]  He returned and won a game (LATimes, July 13, 1911).

“Oh, Pretty Fair.  WHAT I THINK OF COAST LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYERS, by a Big League Scout.  ***  Take Bennie Henderson, for instance.  He is a “groove” pitcher and will never do in the big leagues unless he changes his style.  He lays them right over and even though he holds the minor leaguers to few hits he will never fool the big fellows, for that is the one thing they are waiting for – a ball over the center of the plate, where they can at least drive it out with full power, even if it does not go safe.”
(LATimes, September 15, 1911).

The Beavers had a good season and were in the championship playoffs.  “INSIDE “DOPE” ABOUT THE PORTLAND STAR PITCHERS.  By Roger Cornell, (Trainer of the Portland team for two seasons, now with the L. A. Athletic Club.)  One of the best pitchers M’Credie will bring down for the Vernon Portland series is Bennie Henderson.
Henderson is a very reliable pitcher; but he likes the fans to keep quiet when he is in the box.  He has a great curve, and a good change of pace; is not a Marathon pitcher, but is very good if everything breaks right for him; must have good support.  Don’t blow your horns when he is in the box, as it rattles him.  (LATimes, October 4, 1911)

“He is a fine heaver when he is right but is a hard boy to control.”  (LATimes, October 22, 1911)

“Water Wagon Kid.  Booze Contract for Henderson.  M'Credie to Give Erratic Twirler Chance.  ***  [headline]  Walter M'Credie has decided to give Ben Henderson, his capable but erratic big right-handed pitcher, another chance to be good next season. . . .  ***  Ben will be put on what is known as a "booze contract," which means that he will receive but a nominal sum through the season as long as he behaves himself, and there will be a clause attached promising him a good, substantial bonus if he stays on the water wagon.”  (LATimes, December 19, 1911)

BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you simply can't do anything with it."
As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's what it must be at that if it wobbles.  {LATimes, April 2, 1912)

He angered his manager by “running the water wagon into the ditch and falling off” and was suspended.  “I’ll just keep him on the suspended list and make him sweat a little.  He has made me sweat enough.  I think he is one of the greatest pitchers in the country and I could sell him back East tomorrow for $1500, but I do not need the money.  I guess this will be enough for Henderson.”  (LATimes, June 23, 1912)

“A general massacre is about to occur in the Portland baseball team – according to a special dispatch to The Times.  “McCredie is to let out pitchers Elmer Koestner, Speck Harkness, Harry Sutor and Bennie Henderson.  ***  McCredie has decided to trade the whole bunch.  “My team hit well this season but my pitchers were punk,” he said.”  (LATimes, October 31, 1912)

I don’t know where he was in 1913; he was on the roster of the San Francisco Seals at the beginning of spring training, 1914 (LATimes, February 26, 1914.  “What, Again?  BENNIE FALLS FROM WAGON.  HENDERSON HAS BEEN MISSING FOUR DAYS.”  [headline]  He disappeared from the training camp at Boyes Spring (LA Times, March 2, 1914) but returned (LA Times, March 8, 1914).  Nonetheless, he was on the opening day roster (LA Times, March 17, 1914), but disappeared again (LA Times, March 29, 1914).  [I don’t know whether he was kept on the Seals roster after his second lapse – it rather seems not, since his name doesn’t appear in any accounts of baseball games during the season.]

He was released unconditionally by Salt Lake City of the Pacific Coast League (LATimes, May 5, 1915).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Sep 11 01:17:49 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:17:49 -0400
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.211749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As some of you may recall, I routinely show the original, uncut 56-minute
version of "American Tongues" in most of my university classes. I have
never shown (or even seen) the shorter, expurgated versions.

There has been discussion here from time to time suggesting that it is
inappropriate to show the full version because of its inclusion of
offensive uses of the n-word and the f-word. I have continued to show that
version - partly because I consider that my job is to teach about what
people actually think and say, not what they should think and say.

But, I have considered the other point of view, and this semester I
decided to try something new. I showed the film in an undergraduate
linguistics class last week. As usual, I warned the whole class about
various offensive scenes, including those depicting <hillbillies>. But I
also talked privately with the African-American students in the class
ahead of time and told then that I wanted to do something I had not done
before, that I wanted to ask their permission to show the film in class.
Their reaction was very interesting. They could hardly believe that a
professor was actually asking students for permission to do something.
They all gave me permission and told me that they very much wanted to see
the film. I showed the film and distributed the unofficial handout that
Dennis Preston I put together some years ago.

That was last week. Then on Tuesday of this week, students began their
brief oral reports telling us who they are as users of language. Two AA
students gave reports. I noticed that one of them used the label
European-American several times as a synonym for <white person> or
<whitey>. Clearly, she paid attention to both the video and the handout.

My assessment at this point is that it was quite beneficial to show the
video, to warn the students, and to talk privately with the AA students.
All the reports were full, lively, candid. I think the showing of AT
under these circumstances really freed up some students to talk about
attitudes and embarrassing moments, etc.

If you are not familiar with the uncut version, I recommend that you see
it. It is not appropriate for all audiences, but I think it can be very
effective as a teaching device in many university classrooms.

We also showed the film to all new TAs in the English Dep't this year -
and we will have a follow-up session on dialect diversity in the
classroom. New TAs do not teach courses independently their first year, so
we will have that session before they go into classrooms alone.

Bethany


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 02:58:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:58:44 -0400
Subject: Speakin' of those burnin' trousers...
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.225844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from today's NYT, Sports D1

Selena Roberts, "Suspend Stars, Unless a Game Is at Stake"
[yes, that's ironic]

On Maurice Clarett, ex-student athlete who helped Ohio State U. win
their national football title last year and who is now suspended:

"But not all stars benefit from college coaching's depth chart for
delinquents, as Ohio State's Maurice Clarett discovered yesterday.
After the police charged him with lying about items stolen from his
car--a misdemeanor offense for fabrication--Coach Jim Tressel
responded as if this were the first Buckeye ever caught with his
pants on fire."

No mention is made of the proximity of telephone wires, of copper or
other construction, or of nasal prolongation.

Larry


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Sep 11 06:05:46 2003
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:05:46 -0500
Subject: Innit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0309101239050.178442-100000@homer07.u.washin
 gton.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.010546.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9/10/2003 12:40 PM -0700, J. Eulenberg wrote:
>Now, what surprises me about this is that up until a recent British film,
>I had always associated the phrase "innit" with Native American language
>patterns in written materials (see Sherman Alexie, for example).  I was so
>excited one day when I heard one Native American say to another, "Innit?"
>Now I shall have to listen to the "over" accent, or stare, to be certain
>of the speaker's background!

If I remember correctly, in Alexie's movie "Smoke Signals", characters who
were Indians from the Spokane/Coeur d'Alene area all used "innit" as a tag
question with considerable frequency.  However, characters who were Indians
from other areas did not.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 13:03:31 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:03:31 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <10.350f03ec.2c8c8657@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.090331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and coiner
of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 16:08:15 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.120815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While hunting for Ben Henderson yesterday I found that I had wandered into a den of "social vagrants" -- it was quite inadvertent, I assure you -- really -- seemed like a respectable place -- I had no idea.

This was a series of stories in the LATimes from November 14, 1914 and after.  The headline to the original story was:
LONG BEACH UNCOVERS "SOCIAL VAGRANT" CLAN.  Thirty Men Heavily Fined or Given County-jail Sentences -- Church and Business men Included in List of Guilty Ones who, Police Say They Have Evidence to Show, were Organized for Immoral Purposes.  [from the story:] Officers Warren and Brown say that Lowe unfolded to them before his arrest a story of the existence of a society of "social vagrants," called the "606," whose members were all men and who met weekly.  ***  At the functions of this peculiar society all the members, on arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk underware and hosiery, and some wore women's wigs.  The members made up with powder and paint as for the stage, according to the recital by the officers, and the orgies were attented by at least fifty at each meeting.
Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1914, section II, p. 8  I do not find "social vagrant" in the on-line OED.

[A police officer testifies:]  [Lowe] came [into the room] again, while I was lying on the bed.  He asked me if I had ever heard of the Six-O-Six Club and the Ninety-six Club.  I said I had not.  He said that the Ninety-six Club was the best; that it was composed of the 'queer' people, that got together every week.  I asked Lowe why they called it the Ninety-six Club, and he said someting about turning the letters around, before and behind.  He said that the members sometimes spent hundreds of dollars on silk gowns, hosiery, etc., in which they dressed at sessions of this club.  He said that at these 'drags' the 'queer' people have a good time, but no one could get in without being introduced by a member in good standing.
Los Angeles Times, November 19, 1914, p. 10 (continued from p. 1)  HDAS has "drag", noun, 4b, "Homosex., a party held for transvestites and male homosexuals", with quotations from 1927 (2), 1930, 1933, &c.  It has "ninety-six", "Homosex., homosexual anal intercourse", with quotations from 1925, 1949, and "1947-51".  The 1949 passage reads "California term for reciprocal anal intercourse".

The Times reprinted an editorial from the Sacramento Bee, which quoted at length from a letter from an outraged citizen: "There is the pitiable, the most outrageous, part of all -- the jaded appetites of these loathsome degenerates, after a time, are not satisfied with each other; they demand young boys -- "chickens," they call them -- and they will stoop to almost anything to satisfy their desire in this regard."
Los Angeles Times, November 26, 1914, section II, p. 8.  HDAS has "chicken", noun, 9a, "Pris. & Homosex., a catamite; a boy who is or may be willing to engage in homosexual copulation", with the earliest quotation dated 1942.  It also has, under 3b, "Navy and USMC, a boyish and naive recruit; a raw recruit", with quotations from 1888, 1918 1942, &c.

Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that might contain "606".   I suppose the word "queer" must have been found in this sense well before 1914.

It appears that the Times came under a deal of criticism for reporting on this story, in part from the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce and other city boosters, and in part from moralists who felt that the the subject matter put it outside the realm of "the news that's fit to print".  Its defense with regard the latter objection, in part, was: "In printing such news it is not necessary to give filthy details or to print anything that may not be read in the family circle.  When it is said that the accused was charged with the same crime as that for which Sodom was destroyed and Oscar Wilde was imprisoned, or that he was accused of contributing to the delinquency of a minor female, or of misconduct with a child, the mature reader understands without the aid of a dictionary exactly what is meant and no law of decency is offended."
Los Angeles Times, November 21, 1914, section II, p. 4

The town fathers of Long Beach were also outraged by heterosexual "spooning" on the beach; one city council member proposed planting the beach with thorny cactuses to prevent its misuse after dark -- presumably a rhetorical flourish rather than a serious proposal, but one never knows.

The whole story is very interesting.  I intend to send a packet of more or less legible printouts to my friend Jonathan Ned Katz, the historian of gay America, and will also send one to anyone among us who wants it.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 17:14:54 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:14:54 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective
In-Reply-To: <200309111608.h8BG8P407956@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.131454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, George Thompson wrote:

> Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the
> unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that might
> contain "606".  I suppose the word "queer" must have been found in this
> sense well before 1914.

Actually, "queer" is the notable antedating in what you posted.  OED has
1922 as its first use of "queer" 'homosexual' as an adjective.  It is
interesting that I recently posted a 1914 antedating for "queer"
'homosexual' as a noun, with both antedatings coming out of Southern
California.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 11 18:41:26 2003
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:41:26 -0700
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309111309020.27095-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.114126.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s. He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors, assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony, Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.

Thank you for any advice.

Brenda Lester, Gradual Student

Macon, GA













---------------------------------
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From billw at WOLFRAM.COM  Thu Sep 11 18:50:57 2003
From: billw at WOLFRAM.COM (Bill White)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:50:57 -0500
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <200309111303.h8BD3aQ29202@wolfram.com> (Fred Shapiro's message
 of "Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:03:31 -0400")
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.135057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
> coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

The following sounds plausible:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html

   Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
   Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
   age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
   aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
   Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
   Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
   Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
   left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
   Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
   see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
   on the Louisiana Hayride".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
a biographer about that).

bw
--
Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Sep 11 20:07:14 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:07:14 -0700
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.130714.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I saw Elvis in the mid-70's I think they said it.  My mom took her younger sisters to see him in the 50's.  I doubt that those screaming girls would have noticed something like that.  Even had they heard it, it's been over 45 years and would not remember.
Fritz

>>> billw at WOLFRAM.COM 09/11/03 11:50AM >>>
On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
> coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

The following sounds plausible:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html

   Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
   Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
   age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
   aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
   Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
   Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
   Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
   left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
   Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
   see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
   on the Louisiana Hayride".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
a biographer about that).

bw
--
Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 20:04:46 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:04:46 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.160446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That is interesting.  Certainly "queer" is the most important word in that posting.  I hadn't checked the OED for its date.

After I posted the message I made a few attempts to find stories of similar incidents ffrom before 1916 through Proquest, but (so far) have not succeeded.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 1:14 pm
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective

> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the
> > unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that
> might> contain "606".  I suppose the word "queer" must have been
> found in this
> > sense well before 1914.
>
> Actually, "queer" is the notable antedating in what you posted.
> OED has
> 1922 as its first use of "queer" 'homosexual' as an adjective.  It is
> interesting that I recently posted a 1914 antedating for "queer"
> 'homosexual' as a noun, with both antedatings coming out of Southern
> California.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 20:10:16 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:10:16 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.161016.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have made a quick check in the Proquest files of the LATimes, NYTimes, WashPost, &c. for "omar Colodny", "Colody and words" and "colodny and city college" and have found nothing.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Brenda Lester <alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:41 pm
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?

> Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar
> Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s.
> He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me
> that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history
> of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in
> Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a
> part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors,
> assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony,
> Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.
>
> Thank you for any advice.
>
> Brenda Lester, Gradual Student
>
> Macon, GA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 11 22:28:46 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:28:46 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20030911184126.50513.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.182846.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I. Colodny is listed (with Jerome C. Hixson) as author of "Word Ways", a
book published by American Book Co. in 1946 ... if that's of any interest.

I think the "I." stands for "Isidor".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:15:17 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:15:17 -0400
Subject: Pupusas (1955)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.191517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked the archives.  My Popik-posted pupusa was 1956.


!QUE RICO!:
RECIPES FROM LATIN AMERICA
Pan American Union
Washington, D. C.
(No date.  NYPL's CATNYP has 1955--ed.)

Pg. 2:  EL SALVADOR
Pupusas--Fillled Corn Pancakes...12

Pg. 12:
_PUPUSAS_
_(Salvadorean Tortilla)_
Cook a pound of corn meal with sufficient amount of water until it reaches the consistency of workable dough.  Put it aside.  Prepare a mixture of cooked and mashed kidney beans, crumbled, fried bacon or bacon cracklings and crushed bay leaves.  Now spread the corn meal dough thin and cut in size of small pancakes.  Spread the bean mixture on the tortilla covering each with another thin tortilla.  Fry in greased skillet as you would a hamburger.


(I did _not_ see "pupusas" in the South American food books of Cora Brown (1939) and Charles H. Baker Jr. (1951), which I'll discuss in my next post--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:49:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:49:56 -0400
Subject: Ceviche (1939) & Escabeche (1898)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.194956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CEVICHE

   From THE GREAT CEVICHE BOOK (Berkeley: Ten Speed Press, 2003) by Douglas Rodrguez, pg. 3:

   Don't confuse ceviche with escabeche, a similar marinated fish dish (also made with chicken, vegetables, and game) that includes citrus and vinegar and sometimes pickling spices for a sweet and sour taste.  The most obvious difference between fish escabeche and ceviche is that the fish in escabeche is sauteed before marinating, although it is still traditionally served cold or at room temperature.  In my opnion, both ceviche and escabeche evolved out of the same ancient necessity to preserve food with an acidic sauce.
   Ceviche is by no means a new culinary creation.  Variations of the dish have actually been around for centuries in many Central and South American countries.  In Peru, the Quechua highlanders of Inca times originally made ceviche-like dishes with only jewels from the sea, chiles, salt, and herbs.


   The word wizards of Merriam-Webster's 11th have "seviche" from the ancient times of 1951.
   There aren't a whole lot on English language cookbooks for South America before 1950.  There is THE SOUTH AMERICAN GENTLEMAN'S COMPANION (1951) by Charles H. Baker, Jr.
   The best for our purposes is THE SOUTH AMERICAN COOK BOOK (1939) by the Browns.  It's noted on page 333 that "the only South American contribution of this sort we've come across" is this OCLC WORLDCAT book title:

The American cook-book:
El libro de cocina Americano. Recipes collected and edited by The Association of American Women of Chile.
 Corp Author: Association of American Women of Chile.
Publication: Santiago, Chile, "LeBlanc", 1939


   We'll beat the Browns on every term--including ceviche--but we word wizards should do no worse than 1939.

THE SOUTH AMERICAN COOK BOOK:
INCLUDING CENTRAL AMERICA, MEXICO AND THE WEST INDIES
by Cora, Rose and Bob Brown
New York: Doubleday, Doran & Co.
1939

Pg. 17:
      PERUVIAN SEVICHE
   Lay thin fillets of any very delicate fish on a platter side by side.  Cover with juice of freshly squeezed limes, being careful to remove all lime pits.  Let stand away from dust at least 6-7 hours until lime juice has completely tendered fish.
   When fish is ready peel 1 large, firm ripe tomato.  Split crosswise and flick out seeds, then chop rather fine with very sharp knife.  Remove seeds and veins from 1 green pepper and chop.  Remove seeds and veins from 1 red sweet pepper and chop (or substitute 1 canned pimiento).  Mix tomato and peppers, adding 3/4 cup chopped white onion, 1 teaspoon minced parsley, 1 well-crushed garlic clove (which may be removed afterward) and 1 well-minced chili pepper (or 1-2 dashes Tabasco).  Add vinegar until mixture is semiliquid.  Season with salt, pepper and a very little sugar.  Drain fish fillets thoroughly.  Put them on platter and spread mixture over them.
   Served as a first course for luncheon, this freshly and delicately pickled fish is much better than any you'll find in the delicatessen store.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ESCABECHE

   I have a 1770 citation in the ADS-L archives, but this is always useful, just in case that great food dictionary (the OED) wants to add it.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
       WHAT PUERTO RICANS EAT
        From The Baltimore Sun..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec 26, 1898.                   p. 8 (1 page)
         Escabeche is fish, usually the large mero, sliced, salted, fried in oil, and laid several hours before being served in a sauce sufficient to cover the fish, and made of one-half part of vinegar and one part of olive oil, adding several laurel leaves, half a dozen slices of garlic, and a pinch of pepper.   It is eaten cold and will keep, well covered in a stone jar, for weeks.
        Sancocho is the representative dish of the island. (...)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 23:57:51 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:57:51 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <ruooexrkvla.fsf@billw2lx.wolfram.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.195751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:50 PM -0500 9/11/03, Bill White wrote:
>On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>  Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
>>  coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?
>
>The following sounds plausible:
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html
>
>    Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
>    Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
>    age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
>    aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
>    Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
>    Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
>    Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
>    left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
>    Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
>    see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
>    on the Louisiana Hayride".
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
>in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
>use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
>a biographer about that).


You mean it didn't originate when Elvis Grbac, a somewhat
fair-to-middlin' quarterback for the S. F. 49ers and Kansas City
Chiefs, was pulled from a game in the early 1990s?

larry




>
>bw
>--
>Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
>Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
>Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
>http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 12 00:17:47 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:17:47 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bb86bc319464@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.201747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 1:50 PM -0500 9/11/03, Bill White wrote:
>>On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:
>>
>>
>>Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
>>in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
>>use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
>>a biographer about that).
>
>
>You mean it didn't originate when Elvis Grbac, a somewhat
>fair-to-middlin' quarterback for the S. F. 49ers and Kansas City
>Chiefs, was pulled from a game in the early 1990s?

Aha...so that might be how it got to be a Sports Center/NHL2Nite
catch phrase on ESPN.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 01:55:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0400
Subject: minor antedating of "Hobo" (1888)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.215516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RHDAS has 1889 as the only verifiable cite.  They have a 'ca.1885' cite
which may or may not be the word.  OED uses 1889, as does MW(I think).

Using ancestry.com, "Hobo" can now be cited to the Mitchell Daily
Republican(SD) from October 5, 1888, page 1(I think).

    [ Grand Forks, Dak., Oct. 5.---A reward of $250 has been offered for
evidence that will lead to the arrest and conviction of the alleged "tramp"
or "hobo" who killed George Fulljames(sp?) in a prize fight Sept. 2 in this
city.]

One interesting thing here might be that the word "hobo" wasn't capitalized.
Also interesting is it is another Western US cite.  And this cite dovetails
nicely with the 1889 RHDAS cite which mentions that tramp and hobo are the
same.

I searched ancestry.com for more" HOBO + XXXX"  combinations than you can
imagine from 1880-1888.  Nada.

Looked for "Ho-boy" and "haut boy" from 1856-1888.  Nada.

The only other interesting cite was from 1894 which mentioned hobos in a
mining strike "war" in Colorado.  The interesting thing was that the cite
said that many of the hobos were "graders" for the railroad, which again
dovetails with an 1893 RHDAS cite.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Sep 12 02:05:16 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:05:16 -0500
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.210516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Tamony published in Colodny's magazine, there should be some correspondence between Colodny and Tamony preserved in the  Peter Tamony Collection of Americanisms, held at the Western Historical Manuscript Collection, 23 Ellis Library, Columbia MO 65201. The staff there is very helpful, although recent reductions in state funding have forced them to charge a higher fee for their services.
You might try contacting David Moore (Associate Director, WHMC: e-mail address: mooredf at umsystem.edu)

   Also, the message below seems to indicate that copies of Colodny's magazine are no longer available anywhere. Is this possible? I know that Tamony had at least some copies; his personal library was donated by his sister Kathleen to the  library of the University of Missouri-Columbia, so the copies should be there.
UMC kindly sent duplicate books, magazines, etc. to the University of Missouri-Rolla, and I vaguely remember Colodny's name and the thin issues of his magazine.  I might have ten or so in my office, which is not the same as saying they are readily locatable.

Gerald Cohen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Brenda Lester
        Sent: Thu 9/11/2003 1:41 PM
        To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
        Cc:
        Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?



        Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s. He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors, assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony, Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.

        Thank you for any advice.

        Brenda Lester, Gradual Student

        Macon, GA


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 02:28:10 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:28:10 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.222810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To echo Doug's info--the book is available for about $10 on used book sites.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?


> I. Colodny is listed (with Jerome C. Hixson) as author of "Word Ways", a
> book published by American Book Co. in 1946 ... if that's of any interest.
>
> I think the "I." stands for "Isidor".
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:34:13 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:34:13 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.233413.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."

He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
students who remembered the word from the 1960's).

A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.

(Warning: this is a very rude word in Hindustani, so do not practice using
it around your Indian friends unless they are, you know, really really good
friends.)"

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101902


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:38:51 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:38:51 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000901c378de$bd006b60$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.233851.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:34:13PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
> Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."
>
> He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
> He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
> students who remembered the word from the 1960's).
>
> A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
> knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
> from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.

Appealing as this is, he doesn't suggest any plausible vector for
the movement of the word from Hindustani to American youth slang
of the late 1960s. That would be my first question about this
suggestion.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:47:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:47:35 -0400
Subject: Rocky Road (1927); Denver Sandwich (1924); Hollywoodland (1923)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.234735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ROCKY ROAD, DENVER SANDWICH

   It appears that the LOS ANGELES TIMES database is now up to 1930.  Only another 36 more years for "the whole nine yards."
  Here's some western foods.  See also the archives.  I'm still awaiting that first "cheeseburger" and "corndog."


      NOTED COOKBOOK OUT SOON
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1927.                   p. 2 (1 page) :
   ...the Congressional Club cookbook is about to be put on the market.  (...)
   Mrs. T. J. Geary, wife of former Representative Geary: ...Honolulu ham glace, American tagliarini, apple-raspberry jam, frozen rocky road, baked halibut creole, harlequin tomato rings.

      Early Shopping Food Pages
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 10, 1928.                   p. A9 (1 page)
(Illegible "rocky" text--ed.)


      CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestions For TOMORROW'S MENU
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 6, 1924.                   p. 6 (1 page):
              _DENVER SANDWICH_
   Make twelve slices of toast and butter.  Beat six eggs until light and beat into them two cupfuls of finely chopped boiled ham, two finely chopped small onions, and three finely chopped dill pickles.  Heat three tablespoonfuls of butter in a sautepan, turn in the mixture and stir and cook five minutes; spread over six slices of the buttered toast, cover with six slices of toast, place one sandwich on a lettuce-covered plate, garnish with sliced dill pickle and serve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOLLYWOODLAND

   1930 and still no "tinsel town."


      OPENING GREAT AREA TO HOMES
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 1, 1923.                   p. V5 (1 page):
Glimpse of First Unit of New Hollywood Tract.
Hollywoodland--The Old Sherman and Clark Ranch.
(...)
   _NAMED HOLLYWOODLAND_
   It is the intention of the subdividers to make the tract, which is being marketed under the name of Hollywoodland, into one of the most attractive residential sections of the city.

      Display Ad 321 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 10, 1923.                   p. V2 (1 page):
_Facts about Hollywoodland_
Hollywoodland has been opened for only ten weeks.


(Useful for etymologists of the "Hollywood Diet"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Sep 12 04:30:12 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:30:12 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000901c378de$bd006b60$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.003012.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."
>
>He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
>He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
>students who remembered the word from the 1960's).
>
>A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
>knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
>from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.
>
>(Warning: this is a very rude word in Hindustani, so do not practice using
>it around your Indian friends unless they are, you know, really really good
>friends.)"

Sure, "choad" = "penis" was around in the 1960's. Recently we see it
meaning "perineum anterior to the anus", which I guess needed a good common
name while the membrum virile had too many. It's also been used for fecal
residues. It's a relatively obscure term which is obscene and can mutate to
other obscene meanings, maybe like "wazoo" which I've heard meaning "penis"
as well as "anus", or "cock" which is sexually ambiguous. The origin? I
have no immediate theory.

Sure, Hindi "chod" or so = "f*ck". But then Green's dictionary suggests
Navajo "chodis" = "penis" (for which I can't vouch personally), and in the
many languages in the world there are probably several other candidates.
Hindi "chod" is not used in the sense "penis" AFAIK (from my position of
abject ignorance of Hindi, I think this would most often be "land" or so,
sometimes "lavda"/"laura" or so, etc. ... but as in English I'm sure there
are hundreds of common and recondite synonyms). [Is Hindi "chod" related to
Hindi "chut" = "c*nt"?] I suspect pure coincidence, but surely the Hindi
origin can be considered as a possibility ... now we await the textual
evidence, or at minimum some convincing story about how and why US student
slang adopted Hindi "chod" (and not Hindi "land" etc.) ....

"Choan" = "sex" I've never heard myself AFAIK. I like Green's dictionary's
suggestion < "action" ("[ak-]chon"); it could also be apheretic for
"satisfaction" (of which one sometimes can't get none).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 12 07:50:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:50:36 EDT
Subject: Alfalfa (1836), Pisco (1836), Tambo (1805)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.035036.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The words wizards at the usual wizardry sites have 1845 for "alfalfa."
OED has 1849 for "pisco," a pleasant free drink to have when you fly Air Chile.
   I was just browsing through Peru.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
THE PRESENT STATE OF PERU
(By Joseph Skinner--ed.)
London: Richard Phillips
1805

Pg. 280:  These first clamours conclude by several good pots of _masato_*, to
assuage the thirst of sorrow;...
*To procure this drink, they boil a certain quantity of _Yucas_, and having
reduced them into a paste, or meal, moisten it with saliva, leaving it to
ferment for three days.  By the addition of water, it becomes a very powerful and
intoxicating liquor.
(Revised OED??--ed.)

Pg. 299:  The instrument which afford some degree of melody,  is that which
they name _marimba_.

Pg. 301:  This is commonly the  _guarapo_, a species of fermented liquor, and
sometimes brandy.

Pg. 368:  "Seeing that in this department of Hambato, there is an abundance
of excellent wheaten flour, and that a great portion of the commerce consists
in the sale of bread, we offer a premium of fifty piastres to the baker who
shall make and present to us a specimen of the wheaten bread here named _pan de
agua_, well fermented, well kneaded, and well baked."
("Pan de agua" is also a Puerto Rican bread.  This is Quito--ed.)

Pg. 406:  The masato is their favourite drink.

Pg. 471:  HAVING quitted Chavin of Pariaca by the new road, the traveller has
to proceed four leagues to the town of Xican, whence to the _tambo_* of the
Virgin, he passes over a league of fertile ground abounding in pastures.
*For these tambos, or baiting places, resembling in their institutions the
caravansaries of the East, travellers are chiefly indebted to the benevolence of
the missionaries.
(OED has 1830 for "tambo"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY FROM LIMA TO PARA,
ACROSS THE ANDES AND DOWN THE AMAZON
By Lieutenant W. Smyth and Mr. F. Lowe
London: J. Murray
1836
Boston: Milford House
1973

Pg. 34:  ...all seemed to be a little elevated by chicha or huarapo.

Pg. 110:  The husband is either employed as a labourer--for which he receives
two rials (equal to a shilling) a day for his food--or he is a small farmer,
cultivating Indian corn, coca, and a grass called _alfalfa_, which resembles
clover.

Pg. 111:  They rise early in the morning, and take a bowl of chupe or
masamora, ground Indian corn boiled.  These dishes are a sort of soup, with yucas and
potatoes, and made extremely hot with pepper.  This meal being over, they sit
down and chew coca for about half an hour, and then proceed to their work.
The food they are supplied with when working in the haciendas or farms consists
exclusively of beans and roasted Indian corn, called "cancha."

Pg. 137:  The friends of our canoe-men brought down masata, aguardiente,
chicha, and huarapo for us to drink;...

Pg. 147:  ...an old woman, who offered us a bowl of masata, which, though
very thirsty, we could not make up our minds or mouths to swallow, and we
declined it.  This liquor is made from yucas boiled, and then chewed by the women
till it is reduced to a pulp, when they spit it into a jar and leave it to
ferment, and after two or three days it is drank mixed with water, and will produce
intoxication.

Pg. 181:  During the repast we presented him with a small jar of Pisco Italia
(a cordial made at Pisco, near Lima, from the grape), which, in spite of many
temptations to open, we had reserved for this occasion.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:15:37 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:15:37 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912033851.GC25954@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.071537.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse,

No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

FWIW, in the 60's I was undoubtedly more sheltered
than many youth at that time, but I have never - then
or now (until this discusion) - heard or read the word
Choad/Chode:  use of this word just might not have
been very widespread.

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
....
> Appealing as this is, he doesn't suggest any
> plausible vector for
> the movement of the word from Hindustani to American
> youth slang
> of the late 1960s. That would be my first question
> about this
> suggestion.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:21:54 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:21:54 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912141537.311.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.102154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:15:37AM -0700, James Smith wrote:
> Jesse,
>
> No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
> Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
> Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
> European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
> contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

Yes, but none of these are likely to have contributed
a word that even 30 years later is still regarded as so
offensive that warnings about its use are given.
Granted, I wasn't very active during the '60s, but my
impression is that, as in the examples you give above,
Western youth culture was interested more in intellectual
branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words for
sex.

Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
come from there?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:52:46 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:52:46 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.105246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Ah, those high-minded hippies of the 1960s, looking to the East for its mystical insights while studiously avoiding any thought of sex.

        Actually, the perceived Eastern focus on sex was a big part of its appeal in the 1960s.  Compare "lingam" and "yoni," which had previously been used in English but were to some extent re-popularized around this time.  It's interesting that the meaning of "choad" shifted, but that may mean only that the Western youth culture was as intellectual as they thought they were.

        The Jargon File suggests, http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/choad.html, that "choad" was inherited through 1960s underground comics.  I can confirm that the underground comic artist Robert Crumb, and perhaps others, did use the term.  The underground comics had precisely the sort of uninformed interest in Eastern sex that could lead to an erroneous appropriation of the word.

        Of course, this means only that the derivation is plausible, and nothing more.  I don't have any copies of Zap Comix handy, but I don't think Crumb ever claimed an Eastern or other particular derivation for "choad."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:22 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?


Granted, I wasn't very active during the '60s, but my
impression is that, as in the examples you give above,
Western youth culture was interested more in intellectual
branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words for
sex.

Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
come from there?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 14:58:43 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:58:43 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.155843.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
>Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
>Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
>European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
>contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

Sorry, but no. I am 100% with Jesse. The Hindi-US link isn't there. I was
very much 'in' the Sixties, wrote for the then 'underground press' and
subsequently wrote two books on the period, for both of which I interviewed,
inter alia, many veterans of the 'hippie trail'. Indeed, a number of close
friends took it, though I resisted. The travellers on the trail brought back
many things (cannabis, incense, hepatitis, a mercifully shortlived, in most
cases, religiosity) but Indian slang was not among them. Yes, there might be
such terms as _bhang_ and _charas_, both common names for cannabis, and
doubtless a few ill-digested references to _karma_, _dharma_ and the like
(all of which could have been picked up by any properly read beatnik without
leaving the City Lights Bookstore), but what would still have been a pretty
abstruse Hindi slang lexicon was not among them. I would suggest that to
pick up that level of vocabulary would have required a great deal more
intimacy than there was. Westerners were still essentially exotic, and once
they forsook the ashrams or the known hippie hotels and cafes (and the
attendant drug dealers) were not especially welcome. For instance my wife,
who went to India in '65, had a crowd throwing stones at her and had her
camera ripped open when she attempted to take perfectly innocent tourist
pictures in quite a large city. Hers was not an isolated experience.

If there is one proven vector of Hindi - whether slang or standard usages -
to Western slang then surely it's those who worked and lived in India for
far longer than the hippies, the British civil servants, Army personnel and
businessmen of the Raj. And while one can find their 'Anglo-Indian'
vocabulary in Yule & Burnell's _Hobson Jobson_ (1886), there are relatively
few slang terms that made the trip home. _Blighty_ (from _wilyati/bilyati_ =
foreign and meaning England) being the best known. But obscenities, for all
that Hobson-Jobson, however coyly, lists _banchut_ = motherfucker (Yule &
Burnell do not translate it, suggesting only that those who know it will do
so without further help, it contains that same _chut_ that is the subject of
this discussion on _choad_) seem to have stayed where they were. A few
insults, such as _badmash_, a scoundrel or _soor_, lit. a pig, and used as a
general putdown, might come home with an elderly military man, but they
didn't last.

So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.

Jonathon Green


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 14:58:47 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:58:47 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.105847.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I must congratulate the usual jokesters in our clan for not assailing us with whimsy over the typing error in the signature of "Brenda Lester, Gradual Student" -- a very appropriate term for many graduate students I have known, myself included.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:09:24 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:09:24 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA81@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.110924.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 10:52:46AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>  The Jargon File suggests,
> http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/choad.html, that "choad"
> was inherited through 1960s underground comics.  I can
> confirm that the underground comic artist Robert Crumb, and
> perhaps others, did use the term.  The underground comics
> had precisely the sort of uninformed interest in Eastern sex
> that could lead to an erroneous appropriation of the word.
> Of course, this means only that the derivation is plausible,
> and nothing more.  I don't have any copies of Zap Comix
> handy, but I don't think Crumb ever claimed an Eastern or
> other particular derivation for "choad."

There's no question about this, and HDAS cites Zap Comix
as its first example.

I'll let Jonathon "I was there" Green's response stand
for me as to the other point.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 15:22:19 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:22:19 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.162219.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'll let Jonathon "I was there" Green's response stand
> for me as to the other point.

Right on, Jesse. Power to the OED!

JG


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:20:02 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:20:02 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912142154.GA28951@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.082002.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:

> Yes, but none of these are likely to have
> contributed
> a word that even 30 years later is still regarded as
> so
> offensive that warnings about its use are given.

Probably none of those would have directly contributed
- would have directly introduced the word into English
- and that is what you're looking for apparently, but
the cultural contact and interest was there.

Several who have responded to this subject - including
me - have never encountered the word.  How widespread
is it's use in English?  Identifying the group that
uses it, or that used it 30-40 years ago, will narrow
down the origin/vector.

... in the examples you give
> above,
> Western youth culture was interested more in
> intellectual
> branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words
> for
> sex.

Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
hormone-crazed youth.  After the visit with the yogi
or the sitar lesson, BS'ing with a local over tea or
beer, that's when it would have come up.

> Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
> Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
> come from there?

Focus on the group that first used it in English, and
you might find other, similar words.  ("Guru" has been
around for a long time, but it seems to me that this
was the period during which "guru" came into popular,
common use.)

> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:34:19 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:34:19 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912152002.99983.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 08:20:02AM -0700, James Smith wrote:
> --- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>
> > Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
> > Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
> > come from there?
>
> Focus on the group that first used it in English, and
> you might find other, similar words.  ("Guru" has been
> around for a long time, but it seems to me that this
> was the period during which "guru" came into popular,
> common use.)

I've focused quite extensively on the slang of the late 1960s,
as have others here, and I have not found other, similar
words. _Guru_ is irrelevant; I freely concede that terms
referring to yoga, TM, sitar-playing, and so forth had
significant increases in their currency in this era. I'd like
to know other slang terms of this era, perhaps ones relating
to sex, that derive from Eastern languages. There should be
hundreds of them, with all those hormone-crazed hippies
getting together for beer after their meditation sessions.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:38:11 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:38:11 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        You don't like "lingam" and "yoni"?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 11:34 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?


I'd like to know other slang terms of this era, perhaps ones relating
to sex, that derive from Eastern languages. There should be
hundreds of them, with all those hormone-crazed hippies
getting together for beer after their meditation sessions.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:44:42 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:44:42 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C654036E891A@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.114442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:38:11AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         You don't like "lingam" and "yoni"?

I love them dearly. They're not slang, however.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 16:03:48 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:03:48 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.170348.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Again I must back Jesse. While we have had suggested a variety of terms that
relate to India, or more properly that cultural subset of India as
experienced by the relatively small group of Western hippies who actually
visited and who brought such terms home (or at any rate helped spread their
popularity), we have yet to see cited any examples of actual Hindi or for
that matter Urdu, Tamil, Malayalam or indeed the slang of any other
indigenous Indian language that might have been adopted by Westerners.
_Choad_ itself is at best debatable - and in my opinion fails to make the
cut. In the hope of first-hand evidence I called up a friend, a veteran of
late 60s/early 70s Indian trips. Aside from backing my belief that the
hippies did not encounter such slang, he found the idea of 'sitting round
having a beer with the locals' after a hard day at the ashram simply
risible. It didn't happen. I accept that one friend does not make an
incontrovertible proof, but as Jesse points out, and my own researches back
him up, this supposedly widespread lexicon of slang, born in the Sixties and
rooted in Indian languages, simply isn't there.  .

Jonathon Green


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 16:48:56 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:48:56 -0400
Subject: Jazz: Bert Kelly
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.124856.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According Peter Tamony's article in JEMF Q (1981) on the history of the word "jazz", Bert Kelly, the bandleader who figures in Gerry Cohen's recent summary of material on the work -- he played in San Francisco with Art Hickman in 1914, then went to Chicago in late 1914 with a band that came to be called a "jazz band" -- published an autobiography called "I Created Jazz" through Vantage, the notorious vanity press.

The book isn't in RLIN or WorldCat.  I have also tried searching ABEBooks for it.  I have just spent a deal of time in the Proquest Hist Newspapers file trying to find a notice of this book in the weekly advertisements that Vantage placed in the NYTimes and have found nothing.  It also seems that though Kelly became a more-or-less prominent NYC businessman, he did not get an obit in the Times or any mention while he was alive.

Tamony and Kelly had correspondence, so Tamony's information ought to be correct?

What happens to Vantage books?  Presumably the press produced a hundred copies or so or each title, most of which would have wound up in the hands of the author, sooner or later.  As Thoreau said of Walden, I have a library of 750 books, 675 of which I wrote myself (quoted from memory).  I suppose that the author would pretty soon run out of friends who would be willing to take a copy, suitably autographed -- maybe would run out of friends entirely.  Maybe the 25 or 50 copies the author died owning would wind up in the recycling bin, but surely some got into used book stores?  But as a test, I checked ABEBooks for 6 titles from various Vantage ads, and found only 2 of them: P. A. Alf's The Magic Power of Making Money and a book of essays called Poetaster's Scrapbook are available, 2 copies each.  I didn't find Y. C. Sturgis' Oh, My Son, Forgive Me, or Kandy Ashley's Teddy Bears, Tears and something else, I didn't copy the full title -- the life story of a nursery school teac
her -- or Marjorie M. Booker's To Hell with Male Chauvinism, or Fleming Martin's Despair in a Creole Garden.  Where'd they all go?  Personal narratives by women are all the rage these days in the academy, so Kandy's book would be highly relevant.  Anyway, wherever these books are, there we will find Kelly's book too, I suppose.

Speaking of personal narratives, I had forgotten to note the author and title of the life story of a driver-ed teacher and so couldn't look for it in ABE.  But it was by a man, and so of no academic interest.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Sep 12 17:13:54 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:13:54 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912152002.99983.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.131354.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:

> Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
> hormone-crazed youth.

Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
transcendant.  Would someone serious enough about eastern
religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
smutty street talk to describe the sex act?  It seems more likely to
me that they'd go the euphemizing route.

Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the cows
come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios.  There needs to be
something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
seriously.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 12 17:32:09 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:32:09 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <3F61C692.529.F78F4CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.133209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:
>
>>  Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
>>  hormone-crazed youth.
>
>Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
>transcendant.  Would someone serious enough about eastern
>religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
>smutty street talk to describe the sex act?  It seems more likely to
>me that they'd go the euphemizing route.
>
>Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the

[sacred]

>cows
>come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
>just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios.  There needs to be
>something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
>OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
>seriously.
>
Indeed; an alternate equally wild-eyed (but more Occidental)
speculation would posit R. Crumb (or whoever) deriving it via a
spelling pronunciation of Fr. _chaud_.  Which I'm not endorsing.

larry


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 18:34:34 2003
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:34:34 -0700
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <a66dfaa67601.a67601a66dfa@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113434.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mr. Thompson, that was not a typo. The "gradual student" term is a running joke in my family, as in "When is she going to finish?"  Thanks. I feel better.

best regards,
brenda


George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
I must congratulate the usual jokesters in our clan for not assailing us with whimsy over the typing error in the signature of "Brenda Lester, Gradual Student" -- a very appropriate term for many graduate students I have known, myself included.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 23:02:19 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:02:19 -0500
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL01TaJQx5TFKtY0002559a@exmail01.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.180219.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for reporting on this, Bethany. It's helpful to hear about different
approaches in classrooms.

It seems to me that, given the asymmetric relationship between the
instructor and the students, students are not truly free to withhold
permission to show the video. I've run into this in another situation: at
the first class meeting, I like to take a photo of every student. I used to
say: "if you'd rather not have your picture taken, just let me know", but it
became evident that people felt obligated to conform. Then I thought I found
a perfect solution: I send around an attendance sheet with two columns
labeled "sign here if it's OK to take your picture" and "sign here if you'd
rather not have your picture taken" and say that it's perfectly all right to
sign in the second column, even if nobody else does. In some groups, people
do seem to feel free to opt out of being photographed, but once a student
signed in the first column reluctantly, muttering very quietly: "I want to
be nice". And in the video permission situation, it would be obvious to them
that you would be inconvenienced if they say no--you'd have to re-plan the
whole class meeting. Still, you did consult them, and obviously that's
vastly different from business as usual.

Your comments made me think again of a question I wonder about from time to
time. What if non-African-American students are offended at the racial slur
on the video on behalf of African Americans? Is that offense less important
than that of group members themselves, or should we consult everyone?

-Mai, resigned to being stuck in an institutional role in interactions with
students


> From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:17:49 -0400

> As some of you may recall, I routinely show the original, uncut 56-minute
> version of "American Tongues" in most of my university classes. (...)
>
> There has been discussion here from time to time suggesting that it is
> inappropriate to show the full version because of its inclusion of
> offensive uses of the n-word and the f-word. (...)  and this semester I
> decided to try something new. I showed the film in an undergraduate
> linguistics class last week. As usual, I warned the whole class about
> various offensive scenes, including those depicting <hillbillies>. But I
> also talked privately with the African-American students in the class
> ahead of time and told then that I wanted to do something I had not done
> before, that I wanted to ask their permission to show the film in class.
> Their reaction was very interesting. They could hardly believe that a
> professor was actually asking students for permission to do something.
> They all gave me permission and told me that they very much wanted to see
> the film. I showed the film and distributed the unofficial handout that
> Dennis Preston I put together some years ago.
(...)


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Sep 12 23:18:19 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:18:19 -0400
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
In-Reply-To: <BB87BAAB.1348%mkuha@bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.191819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mai Kuha wrote:
>It seems to me that, given the asymmetric relationship between the
>instructor and the students, students are not truly free to withhold
>permission to show the video. I've run into this in another situation: at
.... >be nice". And in the video permission situation, it would be obvious
to them >that you would be inconvenienced if they say no--you'd have to
re-plan the >whole class meeting. Still, you did consult them, and
obviously that's >vastly different from business as usual.

Yes - I think it is the act of asking that is important. Clearly, there is
a great power inbalance. But - for the record - I was prepared to hear
no, and I had worked out a plan - my situation is made easier by the fact
that the video is available to all students in our library's Media Center
(until recently, our AV Center).

>Your comments made me think again of a question I wonder about from time to
>time. What if non-African-American students are offended at the racial slur
>on the video on behalf of African Americans? Is that offense less important
>than that of group members themselves, or should we consult everyone?

Good question.

I sometimes think that the best solution is simply to mention the
availability of the film, then forbid everyone to watch it! Or engage a
student's help, one who would ask about the film, so I could tell
everyone not to watch it under any circumstances!

(I AM kidding - my students are generally much more mature than that.)

Bethany


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Sep 13 00:57:22 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:57:22 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000801c3793e$603ba240$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.205722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... for all that Hobson-Jobson, however coyly, lists _banchut_ =
>motherfucker ....

The Web edition shows "banchoot", "beteechoot" (with some oblique
explanation in French and Dutch, I think) ... I think the usual modern
forms for Googling might be "behn chod", "beti chod" respectively. These
are, I believe, respectively "sister-f*cker", "daughter-f*cker" or so ...
of course there is another one referring to the mother, Googleable as
"madarchod" etc. None of these AFAIK entered US English back in the day.
 From India we obtain instead the relatively elevated "lingam", "yoni",
"Kama Sutra".

Is there any documentation or evidence for the Navajo origin BTW?

-- Doug Wilson


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Sat Sep 13 07:38:12 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:38:12 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.083812.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The Web edition shows "banchoot", "beteechoot" . . . sister-fucker

My bad. You are of course correct - I was citing Hobson-Jobson from memory. 
 
> Is there any documentation or evidence for the Navajo origin BTW?

My bad again. Yes there was, albeit, as I recall, lacking in any substantial detail, but in writing the 1998 Cassell Dict. Slang I was not allowed to offer cites, so, foolishly, I failed to keep them. I am in the process of repairing this and the results will, I hope, appear in 2006. That, however, doesn't bring back the source of my Navajo root for choad. That this frustates me as much as it doubtless irritates those who would like some evidence of this etymology is of course no excuse.

In the meantime I have mailed Ramesh Krishnamurthy, formerly of COBUILD, who has knowledge both of Indian languages and of lexicography, and I hope that he may be able to cast some light on the subject as regards the supposed Hindi.origin of what Eric Partridge would doubtless have termed a 'prize-problem word'.

Jonathon Green


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 13 17:01:15 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:01:15 EDT
Subject: BUTTER PADS
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.130115.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sign on a container filled with small packets of butter at a bagel shop in
Chicago-O'Hare Airport:

BUTTER PADS

It is easy enough to see how this came about, but I wonder if anyone has ever
seen this before.

Obviously, the ends of words are not the part about which people are least
readily confused.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Sep 13 17:11:42 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:11:42 -0400
Subject: Minor Antedating of "Gobbledygook"
In-Reply-To: <200309120154.h8C1sgI08941@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.131142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the great modern word-coinages is Maury Maverick's "gobbledygook"
(the Maverick family gave two major words to the English language).  OED
and HDAS have citations from April 1944.  Here is a slight antedating:

1944 _Wash. Post_ 30 Mar. 3  Now Maury [Maverick] gets hot. "Stay off the
gobbledygook language.  It only fouls people up.  For the Lord's sake, be
short and say what you're talking about."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Sep 13 17:25:16 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:25:16 -0700
Subject: 'heartburn'
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.102516.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A recent article in the NY Times had a use of "heartburn" that
brought me up short:

Major Stephan, who is looking for work after taking a furlough from a
commercial airliner, said he did not understand why some troops in
Iraq were complaining. "I have real heartburn about the people you
see on television griping about how they're stuck over there". . .
(NY Times, 9/3/03)

I had always thought that 'hearburn' in its extended sense referred
to a carking anxiety, as in:

"You're compressing a two-year campaign cycle into two months, with
all of the heartburn and anxiety that entails," said Mark Bogetich.
(LA Times, 8/30/03).

But the use to mean "outrage or anger" is well attested,  as e.g. in:

Cable's forced diet of programming is giving viewers heartburn. The
average bill now tops $ 40 a month, up 50% since 1996... (USA TODAY,
8/26/03)

For years, the Hormel Foods Corp. has watched as the name of its
famous and popular product also has come to mean junk e-mail, a
source of heartburn and anger for computer users everywhere. (Wash
Post 7/1/03)

And actually the OED gives  "Rankling jealousy, discontent, or enmity."

I wonder how other people understand this word.

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 13 17:38:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:38:04 EDT
Subject: Pimp Slap; New York Sports Express; Snopes
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.133804.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another brutal 11-hour day of parking tickets on Friday, with another
brutal week ahead.  What other scholars work at McDonald's?


PIMP SLAP--NEW YORK POST, TV Sports section, 12 September 2003, pg. 72, col.
2:

_"No offense intended"_
_Scott defends "pimp slap" comments_
    By ANDREW MARCHAND
   When you watch ESPN'S _SportsCenter_, you shouldn't have to explain to
your kids what "pimp slap" means.
   But this past Sunday night, Stuart Scott, who has two daughters, used the
term to describe how the Raiders beat the Titans in last year's playoffs.
   "There is absolutely no offense intended toward anyone, especially women
and especially people who might think I was irresponsible," Scott said when
asked to bottom-line his view after a half-hour, one-on-one debate on the topic.
   "I don't look at the expression in that way.  I look at the expression
_pimpin'_ only meaning swagger, confidence, someone who gets beaten so badly it
takes away their confidence.
   "That is an interpretation that has probably been driven by my culture, by
my friends,  That's how I interpret it.  That is the only meaning.  I don't
even think about it any other way."
   This reasoning doesn't fly because Scott--like him or not--is emulated  by
kids.  The term _booya_ is part of the mass culture, mostly because of Scott.
 He does commercials.  With this comes responsibility.  Using a term that is
derived from beating women is wrong.
   Scott intends to ask his wife and his friends if he should use this term
again.


NEW YORK SPORTS EXPRESS--NEW YORK PRESS (a free weekly, like the VILLAGE
VOICE) has a new free publication this year called NEW YORK SPORTS EXPRESS..  The
writing is a combination of ESPN's Stuart Scott plus David Spade.  If you're
interested in this type of "snarky" language, check it out at
www.nysportsexpress.com.  For example, it's not enough to say that New York Knick forward
Antonion McDyess has had many surgeries.  He's had (as written this week) "more
surgeries than Michael Jackson."  Ugh.  The "smart" commentary on the Kobe Bryant
rape trial is sponsored, of course, by back-pages ads for prostitutes.

SNOPES--I've written another letter to the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for a "Windy CIty"
correction, so expect a correction right away.  This has gone on for seven
years.
   I've also written Snopes.com (the Urban Legends page) to add "Windy City."
 I'd written to Snopes before.  Carl J. Weber or others can also write.
   If you type in "hot dog" and "Dorgan" into Google (not hard, but believe
me, no one who writes for a newspaper can do this), Snopes.com is the first hit
that you'll see.  My work appears without credit.


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Sep 13 18:25:57 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:25:57 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--ask RCrumb
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.112557.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

R. Crumb is still alive.

Why doesn't someone just ...... ask him?

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:
>
>> Who are you trying to kid? We're talking about
>> hormone-crazed youth.
>
>Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
>transcendant. Would someone serious enough about eastern
>religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
>smutty street talk to describe the sex act? It seems more likely to
>me that they'd go the euphemizing route.
>
>Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the

[sacred]

>cows
>come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
>just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios. There needs to be
>something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
>OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
>seriously.
>
Indeed; an alternate equally wild-eyed (but more Occidental)
speculation would posit R. Crumb (or whoever) deriving it via a
spelling pronunciation of Fr. _chaud_. Which I'm not endorsing.

larry

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Sep 13 20:06:47 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:06:47 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--ask RCrumb
In-Reply-To: <20030913182557.5719.qmail@web41404.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.160647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[Sorry, a number of list postings have failed to reach me. I'm responding
to the Web record of the list.]

J. Despres (I think): "There needs to be something more than plausibility
behind a hypothesis before the OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary
publisher) takes it seriously."

I don't know that this is true.

[Whether it should be, to what degree, whether anybody should care, etc.
are questions open to discussion, I suppose.]

Just to take one example which I mentioned here a while ago: OED and M-W
inter alia give "putain" (French) as the ancestor of "poontang" ... some
with qualifications such as "probably" or "possibly".

I would say that presenting an etymology in in the dictionary at all --
even with "possibly" -- qualifies as "taking it seriously" (although that's
not the same as "accepting it fully").

But when a correspondent presented me with an alternative candidate
etymology, approximately or almost equal in superficial plausibility IMHO,
and I went to the books, I couldn't find any "smoking gun" documentation --
or even any primary documentation at all -- of the "putain" etymology ...
and the M-W and OED and other editors (who were so kind as to respond to me
on this list and otherwise) denied having any firm evidence at hand. I find
the favored etymology simply asserted (or quoted from privately
communicated assertion) in "American Speech" several decades ago without
any supporting documents or even any supporting reasoning. [BTW, I believe
there is room for considerable doubt on this one, although the favored
speculation is arguably at least as plausible as any of the several other
specific hypotheses which I can put forth.]

I'm sure there are thousands of other unsupported etymologies given in the
big dictionaries; this is just one which I've researched and considered
myself recently.

My own opinion FWLIW is that if a good guess is available it should be
presented in the dictionary (with "possibly" or "speculatively" or whatever
if appropriate); of course an editor must still decide what is good enough.
[IMHO the proposed Hindi origin of "choad" is a superficially poor guess,
unworthy of promulgation in absence of further evidence.]

-- Doug Wilson


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Sep 13 22:00:06 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:00:06 -0500
Subject: Chinese spammer's attempt at English
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.170006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The justice is prevailed invitation book justice and is started
construction that Cheng Goujian connections the ground brick of
technological research institute production meeing the colored coupler
of seam , and fills the market blank space .
Its bright colorful and practical environmental protection and putting
in order hygiene is convenient , and eliminates the black dirt that the
ground brick met in stitching , and clears away the germs to multiply
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health .
Sincerely levying the various places sole  always sells on commission ,
and halts local vocational work manager , and vocational work
representative , specialty and sparetime all can
The tel : 0533-7589876's fax : 0533-7553289's postal chest :
Y863 at tom.com' address : www.jczb56.com QQ:102646997 addresses :
20#12-2-501's postal in Shandong Zibo Linzi City ox mountain path is
compiled : 255400 contact person : Xia Shizhuan
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 13 23:22:56 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:22:56 -0400
Subject: snopes and hot dogs
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.192256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

Actually, snopes isn't capitalized.

I'll write to Barbara and suggest she give you a credit line.

But, in her defense,  she does a pretty good job.  She used Metcalf and
Barnhart, a state of the art book when it was published.  She gave them
credit.  Just because Metcalf and Barnhart didn't give you specific credit
about the term, but rather said in their intro that your contributions to
ADS-L were helpful in a general way, you probably should take up your "beef"
with them.  No need to "dog' her about it.

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: Pimp Slap; New York Sports Express; Snopes


> SNOPES--I've written another letter to the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for a "Windy
CIty"
> correction, so expect a correction right away.  This has gone on for seven
> years.
>    I've also written Snopes.com (the Urban Legends page) to add "Windy
City."
>  I'd written to Snopes before.  Carl J. Weber or others can also write.
>    If you type in "hot dog" and "Dorgan" into Google (not hard, but
believe
> me, no one who writes for a newspaper can do this), Snopes.com is the
first hit
> that you'll see.  My work appears without credit.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 01:15:24 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:15:24 -0400
Subject: Rodeo, Canaca, Pisco, Tambo, Duende (1831)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.211524.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CANACA

   "Kanaka"--sometimes said to be related to "Canuck"--is given in the OED from 1840.  The following book (three volumes) was a nice read, with some great notes.


CAMPAIGNS AND CRUISES,
IN
VENEZUELA AND NEW GRENADA,
AND IN
THE PACIFIC OCEAN;
FROM 1817 to 1830
in three volumes
("Vowell, Richard Longeville" is handwritten as the author--ed.)
London: Longman and Co.
1831

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 133:  They also make considerable quantities of a thick, dark-colored, syrup, called here (Pg. 134--ed.) _melado_, or _miel_, which they use with cheese, and _mazamurra_, a sort of hasty pudding, made of boiled maize, bruised on a stone.  On some few plantations they boil the syrup down, without clarifying it, and pour it into moulds, where it forms a coarse, ungranulated substance; called, according to the shape of the moulds, _papelon_ and _panela_.  On the coast of Peru, where it is also made, the natives give it the name of _chancaca_.
   ("Mazamorra" has over 4,500 Google hits, mostly in Spanish--ed.)

Pg. 178:  The walking dress, worn by the Bogotenas, is singular and becoming: it consists of the _saya_, _mantilla_, and _sombrero_.  The _saya_ is merely a skirt, which covers the clothes that are worn in the house; and is made either of fine black kerseymere, or sarsnet, with generally two or more deep fringes of broad black lace, or silk net, with tassels and black bugles.  It is so narrow, that the wearers cannot possibly take long steps; and, when they have to pass a gutter in the streets, they are obliged, literally, to take a standing jump, with both feet close together.
   (OED has 1841 for "saya"--ed.)

Pg. 220:  Well may the Spaniards be called throughout South America, _Los Godos,_--the Goths! a name which they have richly merited, by this, and innumerable similar instances of ignorance, rapacity, and devastation, that have disgraced them in that part of the world.
   ("Gogo" is not recorded?  I found it in another book, also.  Similar to "Gringo"?--ed.)

Pg. 260:  There were on board several _Canacas_, (Sandwich islanders), who, it is well known, are all excellent swimmers.

Pg. 260:  ...for our salt provisions, and the jerked beef, called on this coast _charqui_, had been brought all the way from Chile, and was in a very bad condition.

Pg. 260:  They could by no means be prevailed on to taste the soup, or rather stew, that was made of them; although it was extremely (Pg. 261--ed.) palateable, and had even plenty of Pisco wine put in it, for the purposes of tempting them to lay aside their scruples respecting it.

Pg. 272:  A barrel of Pisco aguardiente, sent them from on board, completed their joy.
   (See ADS-L archives for "Pisco" and "Pisco Punch"--ed.)

Pg. 310:  The refreshments always handed round at these Chinganas is _punche_, made of small branches and leaves of the _culen_ plant boiled in water, with some allspice.  This beverage being sweetened, and mixed with aguardiente, is usually cooled with lumps of ice, or frozen snow, from the Cordillera.
   In Autumn, the _rodeo_ takes place, on every large estate in Chile; and is a season of jubilee and merriment among the Huazos and peons throughout (Pg. 311) the country.  This word literally signifies, _the surrounding_, and implies the operation of collecting and driving together all the cattle of the _estancia_, for the purpose of taking account of them, and branding such as have not yet received the proprietor's mark; which is always some strange looking hieroglyphic, as letters are never used for this purpose.  In the rodeo, the good horsemanship of the Huazos, and their dexterity in the use ofthe lazo, are conspicuously displayed.
   (The usual word wizards have 1834 for "rodeo"--ed.)

Pg. 462:  NOTE 6, p. 33.
   _Tazajo_, called on the West coast _cahrqui_, is beef dried in the sun.  The flesh of the bullock is cut into long narrow slices, not more than half an inch thick, which are hung up in the open air, and frequently turned.  They soon become perfectly hard, retain no unpleasant smell, and will keep good for considerable time.  In some parts of the country, where the air is damp, as in the neighborhood of lagoons, and in the Llanos of Venezuela, which are intersected by numerous rivers and creeks, the strips of beef are sprinkled with a little salt, previous to being hung up to dry.

Pg. 464:  NOTE 13, p. 75.
   The term _Godo_ or Goth, was applied at the commencement of the revolution exclusively to the Spaniards, who were entitled to it as well by descent, as by the devastations they committed in South America.  It was afterwards given indiscriminately to all Royalists; who, in turn, called the Patriots _Chocutos_, literally _croppies_; _caballo chocuto_ signifying a cropped horse.

Pg. 465:  NOTE 17, p. 90.
   Arepa is the Indian term for bread in general; it is used by the crioles exclusively for maiz cakes.  The grain of which these are made, after being pounded in a large wooden mortar by two women, who strike it alternately with _majaderos_, or heavy pestles, to loosen the husks, is boiled, and suffered to stand all night in the same water.  It is then bruised by hand, with a round stone, on a flat slab of granite, laid slanting to let the water run off; and is made into small cakes, which are baked on an earthen plate, without adding leaven or salt.  This is considered a very nourishing kind of bread, but is, of course, exceedingly insipid.

Pg. 468:  NOTE 26, p. 241.
   A _pulperia_, called also in Peru and Chile, _bodegon_, is a shop for the sale of groceries and liquors.  It must be distinguished from the Mexican _pulqueria_, which is used exclusively to designate houses that sell pulque, a fermented beverage made from a species of aloe.

Pg. 469:  NOTE 30, pg. 260.
   The word _canaca_ literally means _man_ in the language of the Sandwich islanders.  It is used by navigators to designate a native of those islands.
      NOTE 31, p. 261.
   The Mexican flag consists of three perpendicular stripes; red next the mast, white, and green.  In the centre compartment is a vulture, perched on a prickly-pear bush, holding a serpent in her talons.  This, according to tradition, was the first object that caught the attention of Cortez, at his landing on the coast of Mexico.
      NOTE 32, p. 280.
   Notwithstanding the name of _almendral_, which this suburb bears, not a single almond tree grows within leagues of it.
      NOTE 33, p. 341.
   The Chilenos cook charqui, both fresh and stale, in several different ways, in all of which it is very palateable.  The _charquican_ is a standing dish throughout the country, and is far prefereable to the celebrated Spanish _olla_.  The charqui, being cut into small pieces, is pounded between two stones, and picked as fine as oakum.  it is then put into a stew-pan, with butter, potatoes, red pepper, and in (Pg. 470--ed.) summer, green peas or _frijoles_, in winter, pieces of pumpkin.  These ingredients are all mashed together, enough of water being added to soften the vegetables.  The _valdiviana_ is made of charqui pounded as before, and rinsed in scalding water.  It is eaten with vinegar, pepper, and sliced onions.

 Pg. 470:  NOTE 36, p. 385.
   The name of the unfortunate Emperor of Mexico, is always spelled _Motezuma_ by the South Americans.  The Mexicans themselves, who must certainly be allowed to bethe best authority on this head, pronounce the name "_Moh-tenzuma_."


VOLUME TWO
Pg. 327:  NOTE 21, p. 71.
   A _tambo_ is an Indian caravanserai, built in many parts of South America, (more particularly in the Cordillera,) in which no shelter would otherwise be within a traveller's reach.  Each tambo is kept in repair by the neighbouring natives; and is provided, from time to time, with fuel, straw or rushes for beds, earthen ollas for cooking, and dried venison or vicuna's flesh.

Pg. 331:  NOTE 39, p. 236:
  _Chicha de pina_, cider made of pine-apples, a common beverage in many parts of South America.


VOLUME THREE
Pg. 343:  NOTE 12, p. 138.
   The belief in _duendes_, or fairies, is very prevalent throughout South America; particularly in Peru and Chile.
   (OED has 1924 for "duende"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT NEVER STOPS! (continued, of course)

   Just amazing.
   Every year, every month, every week, maybe every day in this great information age.  No one who writes for a newspaper can Google.  No one.
   Elementary school children can Google!  Newspaper writers can't figure it out?
   I never get credit or money--not even one free hot dog.  Ever.


(NEXIS)
Copyright 2003 Gannett Company, Inc.
USA TODAY
September 10, 2003, Wednesday, FINAL EDITION
SECTION: SPORTS; Pg. 2C
LENGTH: 153 words
HEADLINE: Long time since Cubs, White Sox have been in this position
BYLINE: Mike Dodd
(...)
 * The hot dog gets its name, legend has it, as New York newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan pens an illustration of a dachshund in a bun after attending a ballgame at the Polo Grounds.


(NEXIS)
Copyright 2003 Seattle Post-Intelligencer
THE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
September 10, 2003, Wednesday FINAL
SECTION: LIFE AND ARTS, Pg. E2

LENGTH: 672 words

HEADLINE: FRANKLY, YOU CAN'T LOSE WITH A RED HOT DOG

SOURCE: JOHN OWEN

BODY:  EVERYBODY HAS a helpful suggestion for the Mariners during this stretch drive to the World Series.

Actually, I have two of them.

Don't just stand there with the bat on your shoulder when the count is three balls and two strikes. Nobody believes umpires are infallible. Then why should any batter act that way on close pitches?

If occasionally swinging the bat on a 3-2 count doesn't improve the clutch hitting, then station a food vendor at every entrance to Safeco Field, frying hot dogs in giant skillets.

That last suggestion was passed along to me by the sport's greatest innovator, the late Bill Veeck. He recognized that, on average, teams will lose as many games as they win. The trick is to send the fans home happy, even after the losses.

He did it with energetic promotions and by selling the sizzle as well as the tube steak.

"Why did I put these guys with frying pans at all the entrances?" he asked. "You can't grill 40,000 hot dogs to order. But when the fans see and smell those wieners sputtering in the pans, they can't resist. They want to believe that's what they are eating up in the grandstand even though they really know better."

>From the sport's earliest days, baseball promoters have been battling image problems, in regard to hot dogs. During a cold spell at the Polo Grounds in New York, Harry Stevens wasn't selling any ice cream, so he ordered sausages and buns sent to the concession stands and vendors were instructed to yell, "Hot dachshund sausages, get 'em while they're hot." Thus the term "hot dog" was created.

A few years later, however, rumors spread that ballpark frankfurters actually contained dog meat. It didn't help that a sports cartoonist named Tad Dorgan began to draw sketches of wieners with faces, feet and tails.

So vendors were told to forget the dogs and to advertise their products by hollering, "Coney Islands...get your Red Hots."
(...)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 14 03:06:15 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:06:15 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <56BFCAB3.3407FD58.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.230615.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A noteworthy item in the latest batch of OED revisions is the following
citation now listed as the first use for the word "nerd":

a1950 A. KAZIN Jrnl. in Lifetime Burning in Every Moment (1996) II. 92, I
guess to her I am a nerd, a bookish noodle, not genially at the heart of
things.

Since Dr. Seuss' naming of one of his fictional animals as a "nerd"
occurred in a 1950 book, the Kazin usage most likely kills the theory that
the slang word derives from Dr. Seuss.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 14 03:40:29 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:40:29 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309132302590.26586-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.234029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Sep 13, 2003 at 11:06:15PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> A noteworthy item in the latest batch of OED revisions is the following
> citation now listed as the first use for the word "nerd":
>
> a1950 A. KAZIN Jrnl. in Lifetime Burning in Every Moment (1996) II. 92, I
> guess to her I am a nerd, a bookish noodle, not genially at the heart of
> things.
>
> Since Dr. Seuss' naming of one of his fictional animals as a "nerd"
> occurred in a 1950 book, the Kazin usage most likely kills the theory that
> the slang word derives from Dr. Seuss.

I'm afraid not. This cite should not have appeared, and will be
pulled at the next update.

This edition of Kazin's journals is clearly, on a close inspection,
a later re-editing of journals that he kept at the time; it does
not represent a verbatim transcript of contemporaneous writing.
There are a number of places where clear anachronisms, or later comments
on then-current events, appear in the text with nothing to indicate that
they are not original. Thus the trustworthiness of all of the material
is highly questionable. This cite should have been dated a1996, or
perhaps by HDAS as a1996...[ref. to a1950].

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 06:33:20 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:33:20 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.233320.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have looked in the AHD3 and 4, Oxford, and Italian and Korean
dictionaries. None of them confirm my use of pet-pet-pet. They all insist on
pet-petted-petted.

Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
and set-set-set.

Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
or just not noted in dictionaries?

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 07:18:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 03:18:27 EDT
Subject: Flypaper Strategy; Evil Killers;"Their" Period
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.031827.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest went down for maintenance on Saturday.  It could mean that it's
adding the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, or it could mean that ProQuest is just screwing up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FLYPAPER STRATEGY

   Andrew Sullivan's blog mentions this.  Here's the first Google Groups hit,
only about a month ago:

From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:iam%40myown.person+">Dana Dare</A> (<A HREF="mailto:iam%40myown.person">iam at myown.person</A>)
Subject: Re: A powerful explosion has rocked the Mariot hotel in Jakarta
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.bush">alt.politics.bush</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.gw-bush">alt.politics.gw-bush</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.international">
alt.politics.international</A>
Date: 2003-08-07 07:16:06 PST

Freewheeling wrote:> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:29:20 -0700, Dana Dare <
iam at myown.person>> wrote:> > >>Please fill me in on how you believe I've got my hunches
at 180? from  >>what is actually happening.> > > Bill Kristol covers this
topic in a number of articles he wrote with> Kagan and Kaplan.  It may also be in
his most recent book, and he made> the point in a live conversation with
Charlie Rose a few months ago.> It makes sense if you understand the extent to
which Arabs disrespect> weakness.  Recall that UBL used references to Somalia and
the Black> Hawk Down episode in his recruitment speeches, as examples of the
fact> that America is a "paper tiger."  And it is a long standing principle>
in Bedouin strategy that you don't fight unless you are convinced you> have a
chance of victory (and some felt that you don't fight unless> victory is
certain), so Bedouin campaigns were usually a series of> strategic withdrawals until
conditions were favorable for an attack.> Which is precisely what Al Qaeda is
doing at the moment.  All of these> minor attacks around the globe are
designed to cover a strategic> withdrawal.  And they hope that we'll eventually
become complacent and> they can reconstitute.  Which was the same theory that
Hussein was> operating from.  It is folly to show weakness when dealing with an>
Arab military regime of warrior cult of any sort, because it inspires> them to
fight.  There are lots of angry people in the Middle East, but> the current
"guerilla war" in Iraq is extraordinarily anemic in> comparison to most guerilla
campaigns in history.  Plus, if there is> any place where it's to our
advantage to draw these forces into a> fight it's in Iraq.  We're much better off
fighting them there, which> is the logic behind Bush's taunt "Bring it on."  It's
sometimes called> the "flypaper strategy.">
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EVIL KILLERS

   The NEW YORK POST 11 September 2003 front page headline:

September 11, 2003
Today, New York...
REMEMBERS
3,016 innocent lives
taken 2 years ago but
WON'T FORGET
Their evil killers

   Evil killers?  Is there a redundancy here?  Can killers ever be nice guys?
   Google has about 3,000 "evil killer" hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
WHO WEARS WHITE DURING THEIR PERIOD?

   This was said on a panty-liner tv commercial.
   Hey!  Use correct English!  It should be:

Who wears white during his or her period?


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 14 11:33:22 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:33:22 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <20030914034028.GA17944@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.073322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I'm afraid not. This cite should not have appeared, and will be
> pulled at the next update.

OK, thanks for pointing this out, Jesse.  I guess one advantage of
continuous revision is that mistakes can be corrected far more quickly
than in the past.

For the record, let me mention that the Dr. Seuss theory of the origin of
"nerd" is still questionable, even without the Kazin citation, since
"nerd" appeared in _Newsweek_ in 1951, suggesting that it may have been
around before 1950 (the date of the Seuss character).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Sep 14 13:34:58 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:34:58 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003101c37a8a$17956c90$6eb1fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.093458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is my usage; ergo, not nonstandard. (What the hell! I'm a
past-president of the American Dialect Society! How could I be guilty
of nonstandardness?)

dInIs

I have looked in the AHD3 and 4, Oxford, and Italian and Korean
dictionaries. None of them confirm my use of pet-pet-pet. They all insist on
pet-petted-petted.

Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
and set-set-set.

Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
or just not noted in dictionaries?

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 14:15:57 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:15:57 EDT
Subject: An invitation
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.101557.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a well-reasoned
refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRAugust03Fiske.htm">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRAugust03Fiske.htm</A>

If so, I would be pleased to publish it in The Vocabula Review.




Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 08:31:57 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:31:57 EDT
Subject: Digital Dictionaries of South Asia (Re: Choad/Chode)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.043157.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI:  Take a look at this, at Columbia University's site.  It will get
better.


U.S. Department of Education Grants $530K to Phase Two of the Digital
Dictionaries of South Asia Library Project (DDSA)

(NEW YORK, August 27, 2003) Columbia University Libraries, the University of
Chicago Library, and North Carolina State University have recently received
$530K in funding from the U.S. Department of Education, with the University of
Chicago as the leader.

The new three-year grant will be used for the second phase of the Digital
Dictionaries of South Asia (DDSA) project. The project will add at least ten
monolingual dictionaries for modern literary languages of South Asia to its web
site at <A HREF="http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/">http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/</A>. These additions will complement
the thirty-four bilingual dictionaries already being made available under the
project's first phase.

The DDSA was initiated by Columbia's South Asia Librarian and Director of
Area Studies Dr. David Magier, in collaboration with the University of Chicago.
It was developed under major Department of Education funding, as part of the
Digital South Asia Library (DSAL) project - a successful ten year
Columbia/Chicago effort to secure funding for free online access to full-text documents,
image and photo archives, journals indexes, statistics, maps, and other vital
resources for the study of South Asia. The DSAL is online at <A HREF="http://dsal.uchicago.edu/">
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/</A>. Through DSAL, students, scholars, teachers, business leaders, public
officials and citizens have been able to locate and utilize via the internet
materials concerning South Asia that are not otherwise accessible in the U.S.

In 2002, Magier and colleagues created the Center for South Asia Libraries,
an independent international non-profit corporation with offices in Chicago,
India and Nepal to centralize support for these projects. Magier works with the
offices and partners of CSAL in India to carry out the extensive data entry
for the dictionaries project, which has received publicity in the Indian
subcontinent because of the way it highlights many of the languages of the region and
makes their dictionaries more accessible. "The Digital Dictionaries project
has caught a lot of attention, because of the balance it strikes between the
interests of dictionary publishers, copyright holders, and the public - in the
West and in South Asia," says Magier. "By carrying out this work through CSAL,
and providing support for sister institutions in the Indian Subcontinent, we
demonstrate the value of international collaboration in tackling preservation
and access challenges that could not be addressed otherwise." The grant from
the Department of Education also enhances the likelihood that partner libraries
in the countries of South Asia will also attract support from governments and
foundations in the region.

Columbia University Libraries is one of the top ten academic library systems
in the nation, with 7.5 million volumes, over 50,000 serials, as well as
extensive collections of electronic resources, manuscripts, rare books, microforms
and other non-print formats.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 16:05:27 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:05:27 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003101c37a8a$17956c90$6eb1fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.120527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
>and set-set-set.
>
>Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
>or just not noted in dictionaries?
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
~~~~~~~~~~
Non standard? How about: fret, fretted &c., jet, jetted; net, netted; ret,
retted;
vet, vetted; wet, wetted ?
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Sep 14 16:41:55 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:41:55 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bb8a1eb8743d@[35.12.19.185]>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.124155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
>and set-set-set.

What rule is that?

A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some have it as a
'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also "shit", "spit" maybe).

But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have vet his
report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?

"I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't approve of it.
(^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not called the "Web
of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:23:30 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:23:30 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030914123240.04c76460@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.102330.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The rule is just a general rule that says many monosyllabic verbs with a
short vowel do not inflect for tense. Rather than saying those verbs are
irregular, you just say it's a type X verb. So, yes there are many verbs
like vet, fit, gut, etc., that aren't of this type even though they also fit
the requirements.

Even if dictionaries don't like this non-inflection, though, it seems that
this rule can be applied to some verbs, anyway.

But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place

FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut. Talking
in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut 'em." I don't think I'd
say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 9:42 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Past tense of pet
>
>
> >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like
> >put-put-put and set-set-set.
>
> What rule is that?
>
> A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some
> have it as a 'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also
> "shit", "spit" maybe).
>
> But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have
> vet his report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?
>
> "I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't
> approve of it.
> (^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not
> called the "Web of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:51:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:51:19 EDT
Subject: Colorado Digitization Program (CO); Valley of the Shadow (VA)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.135119.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COLORADO DIGITIZATION PROGRAM
  
   The Colorado Digitization Program will include Historical 
Newspapers--1.640,000 pages up to 1923.  It's using the same software (which I like) as the 
BROOKLYN EAGLE, the British Library Online Newspaper Archive, and the Missouri 
Newspapers Project.
   This is useful to check if "I'm from Missouri-Show Me" really started with 
Colorado miners in 1896.
   Nothing seems to be up yet, but here's the press release:
  
http://www.cdpheritage.org/about/news/lsta2003_newspapers.html
CDP Receives Grant to Create Colorado's Historical Newspaper Collection

Denver, CO, June 9, 2003 – The Colorado Digitization Program (CDP), Colorado 
State Library and Colorado Historical Society received a Library Services and 
Technology Act (LSTA) grant for $120,000 to begin the process of digitizing 
Colorado’s historic newspapers from 1859-1880. Initially forty-four newspapers 
representing more than 50,000 pages will be included in Colorado’s Historical 
Newspaper Collection. Through this project researchers, genealogists, students, 
teachers and those interested in Colorado history will be able to search for 
a wide range of topics, people and events as well as view full page images of 
these historic newspapers. “This project will provide our students and 
educators—and anyone who loves Colorado history—with an unparalleled view of Colorado
’s past,” commented Nancy Bolt, Colorado State Librarian. The Colorado 
Historical Newspaper Collection will be available on the Internet through CDP’s web 
site (<A HREF="http://www.cdpheritage.org/">www.cdpheritage.org</A>) and the Colorado Virtual Library (<A HREF="http://www.aclin.org/">www.aclin.org</A>). “
This project will allow scanning across all newspapers at one time, which is 
now not possible. With this project, faculty, researchers, and students will 
be able to do research efficiently, seeing history and social issues from new 
vantage points,” noted Nancy Allen, Dean of Libraries, University of Denver. 
This project will use Olive Software’s ActivePaper Archive™ that is 
specifically designed to handle historic newspapers (<A HREF="http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com/">www.uk.olivesoftware.com</A>). 
  
Additional newspapers would be added to the Collection as funds are 
available. It is the intent of the project partners that Colorado’s Historical 
Newspaper Collection would eventually include papers through 1923, a total of 
1,640,000 pages. “If we can provide easy access to the information about the people 
who made Colorado what it is today, genealogists and historians will be very 
pleased,” commented Rebecca Lintz, Librarian, Colorado Historical Society. The 
Collection is being created from the microfilm collection held by the Colorado 
Historical Society. 
  
The Colorado Digitization Program, established in 1998, provides access to 
digital content from all corners of the state ensuring public access to the rich 
cultural heritage resources in Colorado’s libraries, archives, historical 
societies, and museums via the Internet. The CDP provides assistance to the 
cultural heritage community through best practice guidelines, workshops, and by 
encouraging collaborative partnerships. More information about CDP along with 
access to the Heritage Colorado database is available online at <A HREF="http://www.cdpheritage.org%20/">
www.cdpheritage.org </A>or by e-mailing <A HREF="mailto:colodig at coalliance.org">colodig at coalliance.org</A>.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
VALLEY OF THE SHADOW
  
http://valley.vcdh.virginia.edu/
  or
http://www.vcdh.virginia.edu/research.html
  
   The Virginia Center for Digital History's "Valley of the Shadow" project 
has gotten a little better, but I still haven't gotten anything out of it.  It 
explores two communities (Augusta County, Virginia and Franklin County, 
Pennsylvania) before, during, and after the Civil War.  Included are digitized 
newspapers, letters, and diaries.
   A digital record of Dolley Madison will soon be added by VCDH.  She 
invented "ice cream," you know.  Or maybe it was the hamburger.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Sep 14 18:27:54 2003
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:27:54 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <002001c37ae4$ee55fa10$a952fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.142754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they appropriate
>to the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?

dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)




>The rule is just a general rule that says many monosyllabic verbs with a
>short vowel do not inflect for tense. Rather than saying those verbs are
>irregular, you just say it's a type X verb. So, yes there are many verbs
>like vet, fit, gut, etc., that aren't of this type even though they also fit
>the requirements.
>
>Even if dictionaries don't like this non-inflection, though, it seems that
>this rule can be applied to some verbs, anyway.
>
>But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
>and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>
>FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut. Talking
>in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut 'em." I don't think I'd
>say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson
>>  Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 9:42 AM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: Past tense of pet
>>
>>
>>  >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like
>>  >put-put-put and set-set-set.
>>
>>  What rule is that?
>>
>>  A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some
>>  have it as a 'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also
>>  "shit", "spit" maybe).
>>
>>  But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have
>>  vet his report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?
>>
>>  "I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't
>>  approve of it.
>>  (^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not
>>  called the "Web of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)
>>
>>  -- Doug Wilson
>>


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 18:58:31 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:58:31 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <a05210600bb8a63530a98@[35.12.25.144]>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.115831.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I slow my speech down, it doesn't sound so bad to say something like,
"I net the fish and gut 'em."

It might be an imitation of my dad (native West Virginian, long-time
Alaskan), but in any case, it sounds much better to my ear slow than in my
normal, faster dialect (native Seattleite).

It's possilbe that the effect could just be narrative present (using the
present for a narrative); I'm not sure.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 11:28 AM

> >What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they
> appropriate to
> >the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?

> dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)

> >FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut.
> >Talking in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut
> 'em." I don't
> >think I'd say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Sun Sep 14 20:11:29 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:11:29 -0700
Subject: An invitation
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.131129.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a
well-reasoned
> refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":
>
Why bother writing a refutation when one can just point to footnote 3
instead?

3. Lexicographers often try to justify the inclusion of solecisms like
disinterested (in the sense of uninterested) in their dictionaries by citing
examples from authors who have used these words solecistically. The obvious
response to this is that authors -- well known or not -- are not immune from
misusing and misspelling words and have forever done so. In the seventeenth
century, according to the OED (a dictionary we can still respect),
disinterested did have the meaning "without interest or concern," but for
the last three hundred years, the word has meant "impartial or without
bias."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 22:31:09 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:31:09 -0400
Subject: Hollywood (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.183109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Harvey Wilcox, Hollywood, 1888--441 Google hits
Harvey Wilcox, Hollywood, 1887--402 Google hits

   It's 1887.
   People ("journalists") write stories.  They get paid for these stories.
   No one checks?  One of the most famous of all American place names?  People repeat the same errors?
   This is of possible interest to Frank Abate, who's writing a book on American placenames.  Frank, are you still there?


(GOOGLE)
http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20030809/hollywood.html
Saturday, August 9th, 2003
How Hollywood USA got
its name
By MARTIN BYRNES
(...)
Back in the year 1888, Mrs Daeda Wilcox, wife of one Harvey Henderson Wilcox, overheard one woman telling another that her nearby home was called Hollywood. Harvey H Wilcox was a property speculator and builder, and he decided, on his wife's advice, that the housing estate he was planning for Beachwood Canyon should be called Hollywood Land. It was later he who, in 1923, erected the huge sign on the hillside reading 'Hollywood Land', letters 50 feet high and illuminated by 4,000 bulbs. In 1939 it was replaced and the word 'Land" was omitted. That sign is now a national monument, and all because George Hewston tried to grow apples, to help his tenants survive, in Adare a century and a half ago.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.southlandrealestate.com/HollywoodDemographicsfrm.htm
The community was laid out in the late 1880s, after a real estate developer named Harvey Wilcox registered his 120-acre citrus ranch as Hollywood on February 1st, 1887, and started selling subdivisions of the property.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.hollywoodland.org/
1888 - A bucolic hillside area  populated by citrus farmers is given the name "Hollywood" by Harvey Henderson  Wilcox and his wife, Daeida, as part of a residential development. It is Daeida  who selects the name after she meets a lady on a train whose summer home is  called Hollywood.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Death of Ex-secretary Prelilng
              Los Angeles Times (1881-1886).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 21, 1885.                   p. 0_1 (1 page):
   RICHMOND, Va., May 20.--The formal opening of the Confederate Soldiers' Home, near this city, took place to-day.  From this home the veterans and military proceeded to Hollywood Cemetery and participated in the annual decoration of the graves of Confederates, to-day being Decoration Day.

2.
      Other 1 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 7, 1886.                   p. 1 (1 page):
   Monroe was also buried in New York, but by act of the Virginia Legislature his remains were removed to Hollywood Cemetery, Richmond.

3.
      Classified Ad 1 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 8, 1887.                   p. 1 (1 page):
STRAYED OR STOLEN--A SPAN OF horses, one black mare with colt, one sorrel horse; both had halters on when taken; liberal reward for delivery of said horses to H. H. WILCOX, 34 N. Spring, or to Hollywood Ranch, near Cahuenga Pass.

4.
      Display Ad 7 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 25, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   Look out for Hollywood, at Cahuenga Pass, on Sunset boulevard, 100 feet wide, 6 miles long;...
   Several wealthy gentlemen have already decided to make their homes at Hollywood in the near future.  Drive out there and see, and then wait until it is on the market, then make your home there.  (...)
H. H. WILCOX & CO., 34 North Spring Street.

5.
      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 26, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page)

6.
      Display Ad 6 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 27, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page)

7.
      Display Ad 9 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1887.                   p. 10 (1 page)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep 14 22:48:57 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:48:57 -0400
Subject: Hollywood (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.184857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        There were, of course, other Hollywoods before the famous one in California.  From an 1844 Louisiana case, a reference to a Hollywood Plantation in Louisiana:

        >>They did reside on his father's plantation some two, three, or four years; afterwards at Hollywood, the residence of John Routh, on Lake St. Joseph, until after the completion of their town house, after which their time was measurably divided between the two places.<<

Routh v. Routh, 9 Rob. 224, 41 Am.Dec. 326 (La. 1844).  "Hollywood" is also a surname.


John Baker


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Sep 15 00:07:19 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:07:19 -0500
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <200309141647.AMV58350@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.190719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:41 PM 9/14/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
> >and set-set-set.
>
>What rule is that?
>
>A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some have it as a
>'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also "shit", "spit" maybe).
>
>But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have vet his
>report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?

Following the analyses of similar examples in Bybee's recent book
'Phonology and Language Use' I would check to see the frequency with which
each verb occurs.  Her theory is that frequent irregular verbs are likely
to remain irregular, and, if frequent enough, attract additional members to
the 'irregular club', but infrequent ones are likely to be
regularized.  The fact that 'put, set, let, bet' have zero past/pptl.
inflections probably gives enough strength to the paradigm to make it very
slightly productive, thus permitting 'pet' to join in.  I think she
actually discusses monosyllabic verbs with -t endings.

On a personal level, however, I must admit I don't like 'This morning I pet
the dog'.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology

Wayne State University
Department of English,
Wayne State University,
Detroit, MI, 48202
Home:
862 University Place
Grosse Pointe, MI, 48230, USA.

Home telephone:  (313) 417-8406
Linguistics:  (313) 577-8621
C&IT:  (313) 577-1259


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 23:25:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:25:50 -0400
Subject: Webidence (2000)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.192550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Webidence" is not on Wordspy.com.  There isn't a trademark for it, and I didn't see it on Nexis.  Unfortunately, it wasn't coined here today.
   There are 77 Google hits, and 215 Google Groups hits.

(GOOGLE GROUPS)(The subject line is in Russian--ed.)
From: Alexander Chelnokov (Alexander.Chelnokov at f96.n5080.z2.fidonet.org)
Subject:
Newsgroups: fido7.su.medic
Date: 2000-09-05 07:11:01 PST
(...)
Bruce Slater, from the United States, says that "Webidence is scientific (type
1) and pseudo-scientific (type 2) medical advice and opinion posted on a
website. The marker . . . is `sticky eyeballs,' the measuring device is the web
hit counter, and the unit is the unique hit and repeat visit count.
Unfortunately, no reputable authority exists for separating types 1 and 2."
(...)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep 15 03:32:50 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:32:50 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000801c3793e$603ba240$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.233250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J.Green:

>But obscenities, for all that Hobson-Jobson ... lists _banchut_ ... seem
>to have stayed where they were.

But "banchoot" traveled to Blighty, and mutated into "barnshoot", used as a
milder epithet by the Feringhee, according to Partridge (who apparently did
not know the exact Hindi meaning) and others. [No relation to "choad" IMHO,
and no significant presence in the US, AFAIK.]

>So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.

Well, Navajo's hard for me to deal with, but I looked up "penis" in the big
Young and Morgan Navajo book: several words are listed but nothing like
"chodis". After a little rumination, though, I wonder whether this is a
Navajo slang adoption from Spanish, where "chorizo" = "sausage" is used as
slang for "penis" .... Navajo has no "r", apparently. [Which has no bearing
at all on whether it's related to "choad" AFAIK..]

We blue-collar Appalachians don't often meet Navajo speakers or experts in
Navajo language: perhaps one of the academic savants could check this out?

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 15 04:14:51 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:14:51 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030914231457.02baabe0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.001451.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:32 PM -0400 9/14/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>>So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.
>
>Well, Navajo's hard for me to deal with, but I looked up "penis" in the big
>Young and Morgan Navajo book: several words are listed but nothing like
>"chodis". After a little rumination, though, I wonder whether this is a
>Navajo slang adoption from Spanish, where "chorizo" = "sausage" is used as
>slang for "penis" .... Navajo has no "r", apparently. [Which has no bearing
>at all on whether it's related to "choad" AFAIK..]
>
FWIW, I knew someone whose name was Enrique but was called "Chori"
supposedly because of his fondness for sausage.  No secondary taboo
meaning to affect this as far as I know, but this was L.A., pretty
far from Navajo country.  And as Doug is alluding to, flap [r]s and
stop [d]s are fairly close.

Larry


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Sep 15 05:14:22 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:14:22 -0700
Subject: Webidence (2000)
In-Reply-To: <57CACD81.54AECFD7.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.221422.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Honyaku, it's used quite a bit to just mean evidence from the Web...

The oldest hit I find is 13 April 1998, used by Brian Chandler. Although he
might not have been the first person to use it, I believe he coined it, at
least independently:

http://cgi.monjunet.ne.jp/PT/honyaku/bin/hksrch.dll?Q=webidence&D=57394&I=1

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 4:26 PM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>    "Webidence" is not on Wordspy.com.  There isn't a
> trademark for it, and I didn't see it on Nexis.
> Unfortunately, it wasn't coined here today.
>    There are 77 Google hits, and 215 Google Groups hits.
>
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)(The subject line is in Russian--ed.)
> From: Alexander Chelnokov
> (Alexander.Chelnokov at f96.n5080.z2.fidonet.org)
> Subject:
> Newsgroups: fido7.su.medic
> Date: 2000-09-05 07:11:01 PST


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 06:05:05 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:05:05 EDT
Subject: "Big Apple" 1988 bet paid off now in 2003 (Cohen & Popik not
 mentioned)
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.020505.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just amazing.  Just amazing.  You can't invent humiliation like this.
   These two articles must be cited in full.  I'll get to my West Indian food 
post in a little bit, and then it's off to a brief sleep before another 
brutal week of nonstop work at the McDonald's for lawyers.  I'm trying to clear 
$20,000 this year (with no benefits).
   I'll send a copy to the Windy CIty gang (Chicago Public Library, Newberry 
Library) just to illustrate that Chicago is not the only one to make mistakes.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE article no. 1
  
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/columnists/jeff_elder/6537368.htm
    Monday, Sep 15, 2003    
Jeff Elder          
    Posted on Fri, Aug. 15, 2003 THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER 
GLAD YOU ASKED
Why is NYC called `The Big Apple'?
JEFF ELDER  
Q. How did New York City get the nickname "The Big Apple?" -- Diane Sutton, 
Lincolnton 
It's a good question, Diane, about a great city that's once again struggling 
through a dark moment.
  
That's what makes it "The Big Apple." New York is tough and resilient enough 
to fight through hard times and remain glamorous, legendary, incomparable.
  
During the massive blackouts of 1965 and 1977 there was fear in the streets, 
but New Yorkers reached out to help each other. We saw that same heroism pull 
the city through the pain of Sept. 11.
  
We know New York and the other cities hit by Thursday's blackouts will make 
it through this frightening episode with courage.
  
So this column is for "The Big Apple."
  
According to the New York Historical Society, historians have most often 
traced "The Big Apple" nickname to jockeys, who used the term in reference to the 
city's horse racing scene. An apple was a prize for the horses. A win in the 
big city of New York was a big apple indeed for the jockeys.
  
In the 1930s, the nickname surfaced among black musicians, who regarded New 
York as the ultimate place to perform. There were many apples on the tree, it 
was said, but New York was the big apple. There was even a jazz club in Harlem 
by that name.
  
And some say "The Big Apple" can be traced directly to French immigrant 
Evelyn Claudine de Saint-Évremond, who ran a legendary and glamorous house of ill 
repute.
  
New Yorkers anglicized Mademoiselle Evelyn's first name. She became Eve and 
her brothel was a garden filled with temptations. There are many quotations 
about this place that use the apple as a metaphor.
  
So which story is correct? Experts say there's probably a little truth in all 
of them. New York, after all, is a big beautiful city that never sleeps. 
(Especially, at Mademoiselle Evelyn's house.)
  
By the '50s and '60s "The Big Apple" had fallen out of popular use. But in 
the early '70s, the Convention and Visitors Bureau re-introduced it.
  
So what about `The Big Easy'?
Well, certain things do seem to happen more easily in N'Orleans. But 
historians trace the nickname to a turn-of-the-century jazz club called The Big Easy 
Hall.In 1970, newspaper reporter James Conaway wrote a crime novel set in New 
Orleans called "The Big Easy," and in 1987 the steamy movie with Dennis Quaid 
and Ellen Barkin took the same name.
 
Much of the credit for the nickname is given to newspaper columnist Betty 
Guillaud, who popularized the phrase in the 1970s -- using it to contrast New 
Orleans' laid-back style to that of The Big Apple's.
  
    

   EXPERTS SAY THERE'S PROBABLY A LITTLE TRUTH IN ALL OF THEM?  The "whore 
story" was acknowledged as a hoax!
   He's wrong about "the Big Easy," too.
   The New-York Historical Society tells them this?  The same NYHS that has 
Cohen-Popik donated material?  The same N-YHS that won't send me a style sheet 
(I've waited months) so I can write an article?
   Once again, my name isn't mentioned, and I wasn't even contacted.  I felt 
pretty bad when I saw this just now, until I'd see this and feel even 
worse......
    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE no. 2
  
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2003/08/28/news/local/6627543.htm
    Posted on Wed, Aug. 27, 2003  THE STATE 
Columbia not at core of New York City label
'Big Apple' applied to New York before dance came about
By JEFF WILKINSON
Staff Writer

Sorry to break it to you Columbia, but the Big Apple dance did NOT give New 
York City its nickname.
  
Some South Carolina peaches are headed north to Manhattan, courtesy of former 
Columbia Mayor Patton Adams.
  
In 1988, Adams bet then-New York Mayor Ed Koch that the dance was the source.
  
The debate raged in The New York Times and other national media. It even made 
David Letterman and Dear Abby.
  
At the time, Koch couldn't prove otherwise and sent Adams some New York 
apples as a gift.
  
It's Adams' turn to pay up.
  
A search by The State of records at the New York Public Library shows the 
nickname was used in jazz, horse racing and the movies a decade before the swing 
dance was invented
  
In fact, Columbia's Big Apple club might have taken its name from the same 
jazz-age sources.
  
When briefed Tuesday, Adams cheerfully conceded the bet.
  
But he said he believes the Big Apple dance helped cement the nickname and 
make its use more widespread. "It gave more substance to the nickname than it 
had in the past," he said.
  
Adams, who served from 1986 to 1990, said he made the bet to generate some 
publicity for Columbia tourism."
  
It worked. And Mayor Koch and I had a lot of laughs over the issue."  

Koch, contacted at his law office, said he knew all along the term came from 
jazz, but couldn't prove it at the time."
  
Harlem was known as the Big Apple as the center of jazz and it spread," Koch 
said.
  
The New York Convention & Visitors Bureau formalized the "Big Apple" nickname 
for the city in a 1971 publicity campaign.
  
Adams originally bet 10 pounds of South Carolina mustard-based barbecue to 
Koch's New York cheese pizza.
  
But Koch said South Carolina peaches, which he first tasted during his World 
War II basic training at Camp Croft near Spartanburg, would do just fine.
  
"We would crawl through those peach orchards and I would reach up and steal 
the biggest. South Carolina peaches are the best."
  
Koch said six peaches would satisfy the bet.
  
Since the debate raged in 1988, The New York Times archives have been 
computerized. Research now is much easier.
  
The first reference is in a glossary of Hollywood movie-making terms titled 
"Slang of Film Men," published in The New York Times on March 11, 1928. The 
dance was invented in 1936.
  
Horse-racing reports from the 1920s and 1930s also call the city the Big 
Apple because its tracks paid the highest purses.
  
And jazz musicians called playing clubs on the road "picking apples." They 
looked forward to returning to "the big apple," New York, were they were paid 
more and enjoyed more prestige.
  
Although the Big Apple was in use as New York's nickname before the dance was 
invented, the exact source of the term -- whether jazz, horse racing or 
filmmaking -- is still a mystery."
  
It's like a lot of things," said John Rathe, a research librarian at the New 
York Public Library. "Was there an Uncle Sam? Did Betsy Ross sew the first 
American flag? Until somebody invents a time machine, we're not going to find 
out."
  
Rathe noted that in the jazz and horse-racing world, the term indicated "the 
place to be."
  
So, in all likelihood, Columbia nightclub owner Frank "Fat Sam" Boyd -- being 
hip to things jazz -- might have named his joint the Big Apple for that very 
reason."
  
It's logical," Rathe said.Reach Wilkinson at (803) 771-8495 or <A HREF="mailto:jwilkinson at thestate.com">
jwilkinson at thestate.com</A>.


  
    This is insane.  I'm losing my mind.  Andy Smith begs me to get therapy.
    In 1991, Gerald Cohen published a Big Apple BOOK.  I then added to it 
with important discoveries, published in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  Track writer 
John J. Fitz Gerald admitted he'd heard "Big Apple" from New Orleans stable 
hands, and I even pinpointed the probable January 1920 date, using two sources.  
Our work is summarized in Cohen's entry to the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY 
(1995).
   I gave all this in 1992 to then-Mayor David Dinkins, which began the 
process of the work being rejected all over town.
   Finally, in 1997, just as both of my parents would die, I dedicated "Big 
Apple Corner."  It was signed into law by Mayor Rudy Giuliani.  If you Google 
"Big Apple" and "nickname," it's hit number three.  NO ONE CAN GOOGLE?
   Fred Shapiro found that 1928 NEW YORK TIMES citation over ten years ago.  
It was published in AMERICAN SPEECH, a journal of this American Dialect 
Society.  The TIMES digitization hadn't added anything we didn't already know over a 
decade ag
   I gave Ed Koch my material years ago.  He saw it and responded to it.  (He 
couldn't make the 1997 dedication.  Don't worry--no one did.)  Now: "he knew 
all along the term came from jazz"?
   Gersh Kuntzman wrote a "Big Apple" article for the 1997 NEW YORK POST.  
Patton Adams was quoted in it.  Adams remembers none of it?
    But the most infuriating thing are the comments by John Rathe, a research 
librarian at the New York Public Library.  Not only did I solve this thing at 
the New York Public Library, but--(wipes brow, takes a breath, go)--I'M BARRY 
POPIK!  No one knows me?  No NYPL librarian has ever heard of me?  BARRY 
POPIK!  You know, the guy who's been going there for over ten years?  Friend of 
90-year-old David Shulman?  Barry Popik?  Lives in New York?  Also did research 
work on the Windy CIty, the Great White Way, New York's Finest, New York's 
Bravest, the New York Yankees, the Bronx Bombers, the Subway Series, Audrey 
Munson ("Miss Manhattan"), the hot dog, the gyro, the smoothie, chicken a la king, 
the hero, the hoagie...
   Barry Popik!  BARRY POPIK!
   I'm Barry Popik!
   I knew this would happen, so I took the incredible trouble of making sure 
this was a law!  No one remembers?  No one knows?  No one can Google and find 
out?
   What to do?  Run to the doorman?  I'm Barry Popik, right?  I live here, 
don't I?  I've lived here for a long time, haven't I?  This duplicate street 
sign, it says "BIG APPLE CORNER," doesn't it?
    See that store over there, at East 57th and Third?  It used to be a WIZ.  
But before that, it was a CRAZY EDDIE.  And he had this motto, "Crazy Eddie, 
his prices are insaaaane!"  Remember?  And in the 1970s, along with the Big 
Apple print ad campaign, there was a slogan that said, "New York.  You have to 
be a little crazy to live here."  
   And what would I sing?  Remember?  A little song by Patsy Cline, from just 
at the time I was born?  Remember?  Remember?
   "Crazy..." 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 06:53:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:53:23 EDT
Subject: "Buffy" slang in weekend Financial Times
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.025323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.image.ft.com/adimages/rich-FTB/GolfStandard_andy_period.swf
    
FT WEEKEND MAGAZINE - THE ARTS: Bite me, professor  
By Ian Shuttleworth
Financial Times; Sep 13, 2003

    
It's one of the ultimate accolades for a writer with a genuine interest in 
words: being cited in a dictionary - especially one published by the Oxford 
University Press - as an example of first use of a particular term in a dictionary 
entry. This summer I found myself cited not once but seven times. The glory!

Except that my citations aren't in the Oxford English Dictionary or any of 
its authoritative spin-offs, but in a tome entitled Slayer Slang: a Buffy the 
Vampire Slayer Lexicon (OUP, ý12.99). There I am, acknowledged as a pioneer in 
the use of terms such as "five-by- five" (adj.: satisfied, good), "vamped" 
(adj.: turned into a vampire), and "suckage" (across which it is perhaps best to 
draw a veil).

Yet this is no youth-culture bandwagon publication. Slayer Slang's author, 
Michael Adams, is chair of the English department at a liberal arts college in 
Pennsylvania; his glossary of terms from the TV series and its various official 
and unofficial offshoots is not only compiled in conventional scholarly 
style, but is prefaced by several chapters on the forms and evolutions of slang, 
and grew out of an essay first published in the respected linguistic periodical 
Verbatim.
(...)
    
  
(The Financial Times: right on the money--ed.)


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Sep 15 07:39:42 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:39:42 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.083942.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1.Navajo.

If only I could recall my source. But I can't, and it would appear that I
may have been misled, and that the best course is the mark chode/choad 'ety.
unknown'. So be it.

2. Partridge and banchut

Partridge cites the term as 'early C20', which he defines as 1900-30. He
quotes Orwell in _Down and Out in Paris and London_ as his single source
(other of course than Hobson-Jobson, pub. 1886). Orwell was a veteran of the
colonial East (Burma). I am happy to accept that such veterans would
certainly have known the word, and indeed occasionally used banchut 'back
home', but as Partridge's dating seems to indicate, not for very long.
Orwell, other than a small list of tramping slang, also in _Down and Out . .
._ did not claim to be a slang expert, and while he may have encountered the
term, I would still maintain that it was restricted to ex-pats. I have two
post Hobson Jobson cites: one from 1905, and one 1940, both in 'Raj'
contexts. This is not in any way to say that others do not exist, but I
remain unconvinced that the word is linked to chode/choad.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 07:52:26 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:52:26 EDT
Subject: Caribbean cookbooks article (1998)
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.035226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For the past few years, I've been reading every cookbook, every food
periodical, every menu, every travel guidebook and handbook (for every country in
the world, which I then travel to), and every computer database in the New York
Public Library.  No one knows who I am.
   The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995) is behind every NYPL librarian.
No one knows how to look there.  Been around for eight years.
   Anyway...


NEW WEST INDIAN GUIDE/NIEUWE WEST-INDISCHE GIDS
vol. 72 no. 1 & 2 (1998): 77-95

B. W. HIGMAN

COOKBOOKS AND CARIBBEAN CULTURAL IDENTITY:
AN ENGLISH-LANGUAGE HORS D'OEUVRE


   This is an excellent article, from a periodical available in the NYU Bobst
Library stacks.  I'll be in Trinidad & Guyana for two weeks in November,
probably just when the ProQuest CHICAGO TRIBUNE will come out ("in late August").

Pg. 79:  The earliest known English-language cookbook published in the
Caribbean is Caroline Sullivan's _Jamaica Cookery Book_ of 1893.  A trickle followed
down to the 1960s, and then there was an explosion in output that continues
to the present.  Two questions stand out.  Why did publication begin so late,
and why has the cookbook become so common in the last twenty years?

   Good questions.  I'll try to use the JAMAICA GLEANER, but I need a
Trinidad newspaper as well, and just about anything I can get my hands on.  I'll
possibly make a Library of Congress visit next week.  Suggestions?
   Again, the cuisine is now all over New York City.

Pg. 79:  For example, the fifth edition of _The Art of Cookery_ by Hannah
Glasse, published in 1755, contained elaborate instructions on how "To dress a
turtle the West Indian way."  Glasse noted that "In the West Indies they
generally souse the fins, and eat them cold, omit the liver, and only send to the
table the callepy, and soop" (Glasse, 1775:67).

Pg. 79:  Both English and North American cookbooks occasionally referred to
the Caribbean, in the eighteenth century, as in "West-India pepper pot" (soup)
and directions how to "caveach" fish "as practised in the West Indies" (Briggs
1792: 35; Hooker 1984:58).

Pg. 82:  No new cookbooks have been identified for the 1930s.

   A whole decade.  Not one for the entire region.  Just incredible.

Pg. 87 (closing comment--ed.):  Food, therefore, remains a problematic symbil
of Caribbean identity.  The cookbook-writers of recent times have not been
completely successful in creating a single account of the Caribbean past or a
single, unitary definition of Caribbean cuisine or culture.  In their efforts to
achieve this objective, they have however fixed Caribbean cuisine in a
traditional/nostalgic (Pg. 88--ed.) mould, locating it in times past and places
lost.  The cuisine commonly becomes something to be preserved rather than
developed, an attitude paralleling the fixing of the social memory in the cookbook's
text.

   Those comments are now dated.  We've had a lot more cookbooks since that
was written just a few years ago.  A nice bibliography of all the cookbooks
(119 from 1890-1997) is given.  The 1939 book by the Browns that I recently
mentioned here--which includes this region in its title--is not listed.


From regina.mcmahon at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Sep 15 09:41:57 2003
From: regina.mcmahon at MINDSPRING.COM (Regina)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:41:57 -0400
Subject: Fw: agita /   'heartburn'
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.054157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Reading your comment on "heartburn,"  I made a comment to my proofreader
 about "agita."   I remember hearing the word in the '60s, as did she. But
MW
 gives date of 1980s.  Yes, we are both in NYC.  Manhattan.  Chelsea.

 ________________________________________________________________________
> r.
>
> yeah, agree.
> i thought that when i read it.
> and same for me, i learned it from italians.
>
> t.
>
>
> ________________________ . . . .
> Regina said:
>
>
> I must disagree with the dating of it.
>
> I remember hearing the word since I was a kid.
>
> Italians I knew used it.
>
> ________________________________________________________
>
> From MW:
>
>       agita \AJ-uh-tuh\ noun
>
>       : a feeling of agitation or anxiety
>
>       Example sentence:
>       The prosecuting attorney's aggressive cross-examination seemed to
give
> the defendant agita.
>
>       Did you know?
>       Judging by its spelling and meaning, you might think that "agita" is
> simply a shortened version of "agitation," but that's not the case. Both
> "agitation" and the verb "agitate" derive from the Latin "agere" ("to
> drive"). "Agita," which first appeared in English in the early 1980s,
comes
> from a dialectical pronunciation of the Italian "acido," meaning
"heartburn"
> or "acid," which derives from the Latin "acidus." For a while its usage in
> American English was limited to New York City and surrounding regions, but
> the word became more widespread in the mid-90s.
>       ______________________________________
>
>
> this was merriam-webster's word of the day
> just the other day. wow. cool.
>
> t.
> ________________________ . . . .
>
> Regina said:
>
> of course, they could have just said "agita."
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoffrey Nunberg" <nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: 'heartburn'
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Geoffrey Nunberg <nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> > Subject:      'heartburn'
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > A recent article in the NY Times had a use of "heartburn" that
> > brought me up short:
> >
> > Major Stephan, who is looking for work after taking a furlough from a
> > commercial airliner, said he did not understand why some troops in
> > Iraq were complaining. "I have real heartburn about the people you
> > see on television griping about how they're stuck over there". . .
> > (NY Times, 9/3/03)
> >
> > I had always thought that 'hearburn' in its extended sense referred
> > to a carking anxiety, as in:
> >
> > "You're compressing a two-year campaign cycle into two months, with
> > all of the heartburn and anxiety that entails," said Mark Bogetich.
> > (LA Times, 8/30/03).
> >
> > But the use to mean "outrage or anger" is well attested,  as e.g. in:
> >
> > Cable's forced diet of programming is giving viewers heartburn. The
> > average bill now tops $ 40 a month, up 50% since 1996... (USA TODAY,
> > 8/26/03)
> >
> > For years, the Hormel Foods Corp. has watched as the name of its
> > famous and popular product also has come to mean junk e-mail, a
> > source of heartburn and anger for computer users everywhere. (Wash
> > Post 7/1/03)
> >
> > And actually the OED gives  "Rankling jealousy, discontent, or enmity."
> >
> > I wonder how other people understand this word.
> >
> > Geoff Nunberg
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep 15 11:30:10 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:10 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003401c37af2$3190bfb0$a952fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.073010.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Fascinating. Our ears are wonderful (well, it's actually our brains, but...).

Thanks.

dInIs



>When I slow my speech down, it doesn't sound so bad to say something like,
>"I net the fish and gut 'em."
>
>It might be an imitation of my dad (native West Virginian, long-time
>Alaskan), but in any case, it sounds much better to my ear slow than in my
>normal, faster dialect (native Seattleite).
>
>It's possilbe that the effect could just be narrative present (using the
>present for a narrative); I'm not sure.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
>>  Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 11:28 AM
>
>>  >What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they
>>  appropriate to
>>  >the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?
>
>>  dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)
>
>>  >FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut.
>>  >Talking in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut
>>  'em." I don't
>>  >think I'd say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Mon Sep 15 02:31:52 2003
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:31:52 -0500
Subject: An invitation
In-Reply-To: <179.1f918a97.2c95d21d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.213152.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 9/14/2003 09:15 AM, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote the following:

>Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a well-reasoned
>refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":

 From the article in question:

>It's quite true: people are increasingly monosyllabic; after all, many
>people today prefer dis (included in the Collegiate tenth and eleventh) to
>disparage or disrespect or insult.

Zipf!

Monosyllabically yours,
Scott


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Sep 15 21:10:03 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:10:03 -0400
Subject: changes have undergone?
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.171003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the homepage of the new "College of Education, Health, and Human
Sciences" at the U. of TN:

"Discover changes that have undergone with the new college merger."
(http://cehhs.utk.edu/)

This is transitive -> intransitive, I suppose. This is the first time I
have seen this construction.

Bethany


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Sep 16 10:14:51 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael B Quinion)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:14:51 +0100
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.111451.0100.>

Several copies of an intriguing message have been forwarded to
me recently; interestingly, no two were exactly the same. A
Google search shows it suddenly started to appear in groups on
12 September, with 159 copies being posted that day alone. It
has since hit the wider Web, with about 560 different examples
already catalogued. One version is:

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".

This is intriguingly self-referentially right, in that it's
surprisingly easy to read. I presume that the reference to the
research is spurious, but if anybody has any background on its
provenance or subject matter, I'd be interested to hear.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 16 15:04:20 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:04:20 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <3F66F0AB.15533.A08216@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.110420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:14 AM +0100 9/16/03, Michael B Quinion wrote:
>Several copies of an intriguing message have been forwarded to
>me recently; interestingly, no two were exactly the same. A
>Google search shows it suddenly started to appear in groups on
>12 September, with 159 copies being posted that day alone. It
>has since hit the wider Web, with about 560 different examples
>already catalogued. One version is:

That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?  Note also
that the conclusion from the paragraph must be closer to the
proposition that letter scrambling doesn't wipe out interpretation
for four-and-more-letter words.  I suppose "hte" wouldn't be
impossible to "correct" in context either, but it does help that none
of the two- and three-letter words are scrambled below.

larry

>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".
>
>This is intriguingly self-referentially right, in that it's
>surprisingly easy to read. I presume that the reference to the
>research is spurious, but if anybody has any background on its
>provenance or subject matter, I'd be interested to hear.
>
>--
>Michael Quinion
>Editor, World Wide Words
>E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
>Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 16 15:15:18 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:15:18 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.111518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Ah, but you cannot scramble a 2- or 3-letter word without changing the first or last letter, which the message describes as important.

        There are some scrambling mistakes, but I don't know that they mean the message was written by a non-native.  Unscrambled, the message includes "researchch," "importent," "letter" (should be "letters"), and "total" (left unscrambled).

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?

That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?  Note also
that the conclusion from the paragraph must be closer to the
proposition that letter scrambling doesn't wipe out interpretation
for four-and-more-letter words.  I suppose "hte" wouldn't be
impossible to "correct" in context either, but it does help that none
of the two- and three-letter words are scrambled below.

larry

>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Sep 16 15:29:08 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:29:08 -0700
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <3F66F0AB.15533.A08216@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.082908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The version I received on the Outil list also included the following:
---------
The matter is actually more complicated and subtle.  It has
to do with the entropy of language.  Even low-order models
of English text yield entropy values of 3 bits per letter.
Higher-order models that account for context demonstrate the enormous
redundancy in human languages.

The ability to extract meaning from high-entropy text and speech is
apparently hard-wired into the human brain, in the form of associative
memory.  Did some graduate research on it.

Oh, effective on pure speech signals, too ... otherwise cell phones would
never work ... the bit rate on them is much, much slower than what is
required for even an approximate representation of the original voice.
-------
Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael B Quinion
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 September 2003 3:15 AM
>
> "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it
> deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the
> olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at
> the rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can
> sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid
> deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep 16 15:45:24 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:45:24 -0700
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <200309161516.h8GFG4x9232516@pop2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.084524.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote in part:

>That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
>wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
>research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?

The version posted to the Latinteach list was significantly
different; it cited "a sutdy" rather than "a rscheearch," and its
location was "an elgnsih unviesitry."

My assumption about the spelling errors was that the writers didn't
put the original form before their eyes, but simply scrambled as they
typed, using their memory of the correct letters a bit carelessly.
Perhaps the "a rscheearch" was an attempt to make an original "a
sutdy" more challenging, and the reviser neglected to remove the
article?

Note that the passages aren't nearly as difficult as they might be.
Compare for example the beginning of the passage posted to Latinteach:

Acocdrnig to an elgnsih unviesitry sutdy the oredr of letetrs in a wrod
dosen't mttaer, the olny thnig thta's iopmrantt ...

to this:

Airndcocg ot na elsingh ustveiriny sduty the oedrr of lertets in a
wrod dnseot mtaetr, the olny tinhg tthas itornmpat ...

It's still comprehensible, but it's not as easy (for me at least) to
read fluently.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Sep 16 16:40:24 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:40:24 -0500
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.114024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Spelling doesn't matter? Try reversing the -ie- of the German word
for "to shoot".

Gerald Cohen


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 16 17:41:18 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:41:18 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
In-Reply-To: <200309161504.h8GF4Qo09726@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.134118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several years Barry Popik undertook magnificent research into the origins
of "Murphy's Law."  He travelled around the country, looked at key
sources, and was unable to find any documentation of the "Law" earlier
than 1955.  His research was so extensive that he was able to suggest that
the standard account of the "Law" being coined at Edwards Air Force Base
in 1949 was problematic since the supposed 1949 coinage seemed to have
left no trace in sources where one would have thought there would be a
trace.

I have no "smoking gun" to offer proving the standard account.  However, I
have just spent a half hour talking on the phone to George Nichols, the
project manager who, according to the standard account, "developed the
maxim from a remark made by a colleague, Captain E. Murphy" (Concise
Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs).  The salient points of the conversation
are as follows:

1. Nichols, although in his early 80s, was extremely sharp and his
memories seemed to be clear.  Throughout the conversation he stuck to the
standard account in a consistent manner.  Although I am quite impressed by
Barry's evidence (or, rather, nonevidence) and know as well as anyone how
prevalent etymological misconceptions and mistaken memories are, I have to
conclude that Nichols' story is most likely factual.

2. Nichols says that the original formulation was "If it can happen, it
will happen."  This was not what Murphy said, it was what Nichols said
after Murphy made some statement about someone else's error.  Nichols did
not regard "If anything can go wrong, it will" as the original Murphy's
Law.  He says "If it can happen, it will happen" was the version used in
the 1950 press conference.

3. Nichols dismissed any later statements by Edward A. Murphy, Jr. as
attempts by Murphy, three decades later, to assert his own importance as
Murphy's Law became famous in the late 1970s.  According to Nichols,
Murphy played a minor role in the original coinage.

4. I pressed Nichols as to where there might be some contemporaneous
documentation of the press conference or its aftermath.  He said that such
documentation would be in advertisements in technical journals in the
months after the press conference.

That's it.  It seems that the most promising avenue for future research is
in technical journals dated 1950.

P.S.  I have previously posted that I have found a 1941 version of
Murphy's Law, not from an aviation or engineering context.  This is true,
but I want to emphasize that this is a similar quotation, not really part
of the main story of Murphy's Law.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep 16 21:44:43 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:44:43 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.174443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ease with which this passage can be read is by no means unambiguous
evidence that adults read by grasping the first & last letters of each
word.  The high predictability of each word, and the fact that as
experienced readers of typescript on paper & screen we are all very
accustomed to typos of various sorts and particularly inversions of groups
of letters make mental correcting automatic.
A. Murie


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 16 22:06:42 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:06:42 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.180642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Although the message seems easy to read, the words are not well-scrambled.  Here's the same message, with the internal letters arranged alphabetically; that seems suitably close to a random re-arrangement.

        >"Accdionrg to a raceeehrsr at Cabdigmre Ueiinrstvy, it denos't
maettr in waht oedrr the leertts in a word are, the olny
iamnoprtt thing is taht the first and last leertts be at the
rghit pacle. The rest can be a total mess and you can siltl raed
it whioutt pbelorm. This is bacesue the hamun mind deos not
raed eervy leettr by ielstf, but the word as a whole."<

        This actually makes the shorter words easier to read, especially when the internal letters happen to be alphabetical already, but longer words become progressively less recognizable.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?


>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 01:05:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT
Subject: Herb; "Caesar Salad scion" Cardini dies; OT: Still Crazy
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.210541.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COMPLETELY OT:  MORE PARKING TICKETS, OR, STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS

   "What do you do?"  someone just asked me on the subway.  I told him.
   "That must be interesting," he said.  Then he thought a moment and related
some experiences.  "I don't know how you can put up with it."
    I had another day in the room with no air.  I missed meeting the
Merriam-Webster Word Wizard yestereday because I was still doing parking tickets in
the Bronx at 6:30 p.m.
   Paul Simon has recently gotten back togather with Art Garfunkel, and I've
used his music as an anthem, going from "Crazy" to "Still Crazy," from Paul's
"I'll never worry--why should I?" to Patsy's "Worry?  Why should I let myself
worry?"  Going from Paul's "four in the morning" to...five in the morning.
   A few years ago, one parking respondent told me that he couldn't afford to
pay the ticket.  "Is there something else I can do?"
   "No," I said.  "Just try to pay the ticket within seven days."
   "I can't pay the ticket.  Is there some community serviceI could do
instead?"
   "No," I said again.  "Just pay the ticket."
   "I'll sing your favorite song," he suggested.  I didn't say anything to
that.  Sing my favorite song?
   "I'll sing your favorite song," he said again.
   "No, just pay the ticket!" I said.
   "I'll bark like a dog.  I can bark like a dog!"
   "Pay the ticket!  That's it!  This hearing is over!"
   And then he barked like a dog--in a hearing room of the Bronx Parking
Violations Bureau Help Center.
   "Do I still have to pay the ticket?" he asked.
   He left the room.  Other judges entered the room..  "Did you just have
someone bark like a dog?" they asked me.
   Yeah, yeah.
   After the Help Center staff stopped laughing, one person asked me:
   "What _is_ your favorite song?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HERB

   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C. subway
(Coll. J. Sheidlower)."
   Ah, another food etymology--and from the New York City subway, too.
   From THE SUN (NY), 16 September 2003, pg. 16, col. 3, a book review of
Jonathan Lethem's THE FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE:

_The Herb Grows Up_
By TIM MARCHMAN
   Two days after I turned 12 years old, I had my first day of junior high
school.
(...)(These first "book review" paragraphs discuss the book reviewer at 12
years old--ed.)
   One of Wakim's boys shoved me back hard against the crowd.  "You want
some, herb?" he asked.
   I'd never heard the word before, but as I soon found it was one of those
words that can define existence for a 12-year-old boy while remaining unknown
to the broader world.  In the 1980s it was (and may still be, I don't know)
both noun and verb.  A "herb" was a born victim, nearly always white; to be
"herbed" was to be on the bad end of an intimidation game where you gave up your
new Starter cap, your JanSport bag, the few dollars in your pocket, or even your
bus pass, all on pretext that you somehow had a special and protective
relationship with your assailant.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CAESAR SALAD SCION" CARDINI DIES

   From THE SUN (NY), 16 September 2003, pg. 15, col. 1:

_Rosa Maria Cardini, 75, Bottled Cardini's Caesar Dressing_
   SAN DIEGO--Rosa Maria Cardini, who bottled her father's Caesar salad
dressing recipe and created a multimillion-dollar business, died September 3, age
75.
   Caesar Cardini introduced the dressing at Caesar's Hotel, a Tijuana
restaurant popular with Hollywood celebrities such as Clark Gable and Jean Harlow in
the 1920s.  His version omitted the customary anchovies.
(...)--Associated Press.


   During my trip to Croatia, my last trip, way back in what seems the
ancient times of June, my tour guide (the tour company's old pro) told me that he
once had this Cardini-clan woman on his tour.  He then visited the Cardini salad
bowl museum.  He told me that it's a good museum and that she opened it just
for him, but he was most amazed at her enthusiasm over thousands of ordinary
salad bowls.  He wanted to leave after a few minutes, but she would go on with
"...and then so-and-so ate a Caesar salad in this bowl..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE ARTICLE & CHARLOTTE RESPONSE (continued, of course)

   I e-mailed the writers of both recent "Big Apple" articles.  The CHARLOTTE
OBSERVER guy wrote back (below).  He didn't get the "whore hoax" story from
the New-York Historical Society, did he?
   Yes, he did!
   The current president of the New-York Historical Society is Kenneth
Jackson, the editor of its ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995). Nowhere in Gerald
Cohen's "Big Apple" entry did Cohen mention whores.  For good reason.
   Maybe Cohen or George Thompson could speak to the N-YHS about this
disgrace?
   I don't know if I can send the N-YHS a civil letter at this point.
Besides,  I'm too busy with parking tickets.


Subj:   RE: "Big Apple" was wrong
Date:   9/16/2003 9:55:22 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:jelder at charlotteobserver.com">jelder at charlotteobserver.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Great research, Barry! I think I might have come across you in my research,
but I was writing on deadline during the blackout, hoping to offer a tribute
to the city at a tough time. I figured at the time that getting in the
jockey angle as the main explanation was sufficient. Yes, I believe the
society did give me the brothel angle.

Thanks for the note, and good luck in your continued word sleuthing.

Jeff Elder
Glad You Asked - Send us a question!
The Charlotte Observer
(704) 358-5032



-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at aol.com [mailto:Bapopik at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:54 PM
To: glad at charlotteobserver.com
Subject: "Big Apple" was wrong


   I solved "the Big Apple" and dedicated "Big Apple Corner" in 1997.  It
should have been in your story.  Simply Google "Barry Popik" (my name) and
"Big Apple."  How could you miss me?
   Just curious, but did the New-York Historical Society give you the
prostitution story?

Barry Popik
New York, NY


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Sep 17 02:55:44 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:55:44 -0500
Subject: NY Historical Society supports prostitution etymology of "The Big
 Apple"?
In-Reply-To: <11e.258c119c.2c990d65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.215544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  I'll write to Kenneth Jackson some time in the next few days about
the matter Barry mentions below. The prostitution etymology of "The
Big Apple" is thoroughly discredited, and I'm optimistic that Dr.
Jackson will realize this as soon as he reads two items on the
subject:
1) Gerald Cohen: "'The Big Apple'" Prostitution Etymology", _Comments
on Etymology_, vol. 30, no. 8, May 2001, pp. 4-19.
2) Barry Popik: "'Big Apple' Whore Theory Reappears (Continuing
Saga)," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 31, no. 6, March 2002, p.2.

    Also, in broader terms I now see what needs to be done: My book on
the origin of NYC's nickname The Big Apple needs to be revised, with
Barry and myself listed as co-authors this time and with the
additional information of the past ten years or so included.
Presently there's the monograph, several additional articles in the
_Studies in Slang_ monograph series_, and several items in _Comments
on Etymology_. In particular, Barry's extraordinary research needs to
be incorporated into the volume, with due credit of course. It's
already written up, but many people seem most comfortable with
finding everything in a single volume.

     That revised volume, especially if publicized well, should become
the standard reference work on the origin of "The Big Apple" and help
steer scholars/journalists/historical societies away from the obvious
pitfalls.

     When will this happen? Let's see, there's "hot dog" waiting to be
written up in book form. Maybe afterwards.

Gerald Cohen
Professor of Foreign Languages
editor, Comments on Etymology
University of Missouri-Rolla
Rolla, MO 65409


>At 9:05 PM -0400 9/16/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>BIG APPLE ARTICLE & CHARLOTTE RESPONSE (continued, of course)
>
>    I e-mailed the writers of both recent "Big Apple" articles.  The CHARLOTTE
>OBSERVER guy wrote back (below).  He didn't get the "whore hoax" story from
>the New-York Historical Society, did he?
>    Yes, he did!
>    The current president of the New-York Historical Society is Kenneth
>Jackson, the editor of its ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995).
>Nowhere in Gerald
>Cohen's "Big Apple" entry did Cohen mention whores.  For good reason.
>    Maybe Cohen or George Thompson could speak to the N-YHS about this
>disgrace?
>    I don't know if I can send the N-YHS a civil letter at this point.
>Besides,  I'm too busy with parking tickets.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 17 03:19:25 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:19:25 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Media: Des Moines Register: Origin of "Des Moines"
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.231925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From the Linguist List:  another topological etymology for our debunkers?

L
--- begin forwarded text

LINGUIST List:  Vol-14-2456. Tue Sep 16 2003. ISSN: 1068-4875.

Subject: 14.2456, Media: Des Moines Register: Origin of "Des Moines"

Date:  Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:16:17 +0800
From:  "Karen Chung" <karchung at ntu.edu.tw>
Subject:  DMRegister: Origin of  "Des Moines"


     The 9/14/2003 issue of the Des Moines Register online has an
interesting piece on the possibly scatological origin of the city name
"Des Moines":

     Is 'Des Moines' just some dirty joke?
     Oh, poo! Our capital's name seems to stem from rival potty mouths.
     By Mary Challender

     The opening paragraphs:

     A linguist specializing in the extinct Miami-Illinois language
says he's come across a funny, 330-year-old story that gives "Des
Moines" new meaning.
        And - chamber of commerce-types might want to brace themselves - it
appears we've been punked.
     The article mentions in passing the controversy regarding the
origin of "Chicago".

     The URL:

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4788998/22247528.html

     Thanks to Laura Lawless of the French About.com site for featuring
this article in her 9/17/03 newsletter.


     Karen Steffen Chung
     http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~karchung/
     http://www.topica.com/lists/phonetics/




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINGUIST List: Vol-14-2456

--- end forwarded text


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 06:48:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:48:50 EDT
Subject: Bleg & Blog; Pescatarian; Big Snapple
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.024850.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLEG & BLOG--Andrew Sullivan's "blog" uses "bleg" today.  It's not in the
WordSpy. Both words together have 466 Google hits.  See:
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/glossary_archives/003852.html

PESCATARIAN--It's the WordSpy word of the day.  I posted "pescatarian" here
about eight months ago.

BIG SNAPPLE--Snapple has signed an agreement with New York City to be the
official iced tea of, of, Gotham.  There's an article by Marian Burros about
Snapple in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES.  Snapple has "real facts" under its bottle
caps.  If anyone spots my work used yet again without credit or
compensation--you know it's gonna happen soon--please e-mail me the bottle cap info.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 12:56:37 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:56:37 EDT
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.085637.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT, >   Bapopik at AOL.COM
> writeth:
>
> HERB
>
>   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
> Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
> City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C.
> subway
> (Coll. J. Sheidlower)."


Didn't the Burger King chain have an advertising campaign in the late 1980's
in which there were pictures of "Herb" posted and if you spotted the person in
the picture and asked him, "Are you Herb" you won a prize?

If memory serves, the Wall Street Journal did a front-page article on this
advertising campaign.

I think it more likely that Burger King's advertising people picked up
(perhaps unconsciously) on an existing connotation of "Herb" as a nickname for a
geekish person than that they managed to pile such a connotation onto a
previously colorless nickname.

I also think there is no connection to the existence of VP-later-President G.
Herbert Bush.

     - Jim Landau


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Sep 17 13:19:13 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:19:13 +0100
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.141913.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I can offer nothing between this distinctly UK cite and the
popularization of the 1990s, I have found

1938 James Curtis _They Drive by Night_ 13: Good old Pompey [sc.
Portsmouth]. That's where all the right herbs ended up

The context makes it clear that meaning, with its assumption that the name
Herbert is innately funny (plus overtones of nerdish) is that of the later
uses. The UK also has the synonymous 'Herbert'.

Jonathon Green


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 13:29:16 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:29:16 EDT
Subject: Walrus market
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.092916.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<A HREF="http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2003/09/03/cx_cd_0903sport.html">http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2003/09/03/cx_cd_0903sport.html</A>

<begin quote>
The World's Most Expensive Yachts 2003
byline = 'Breckinridge Ely
<snip>
It would seem that mega-yacht prices are somehow linked to Hollywood film
budgets--in uncertain economic times, they go up. Those yachts that have left the
list (and presumably "sold") represent over $140 million worth of heavy metal
(and plastic). We dubbed last year's sagging yacht market a "walrus market,"
which is a yachtsman's version of a bear market. Now we see some yachts
ratcheting their prices skyward, while others are looking for a bottom with drastic
price cuts.
<end quote>

There is also a, probably unintentional, play on words in the last sentence.
Among shippers, "bottom" is a synonym for "merchant ship".

Incidentally, was it a stockbroker who was responsible for the Chicago Bulls
and the Chicago Bears?

      - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep 17 14:47:24 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:47:24 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <1a2.1a210a36.2c99b405@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.104724.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 08:56:37AM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> In a message dated Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT, >   Bapopik at AOL.COM
> > writeth:
> >
> > HERB
> >
> >   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
> > Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
> > City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C.
> > subway
> > (Coll. J. Sheidlower)."
>
>
> Didn't the Burger King chain have an advertising campaign in the late 1980's
> in which there were pictures of "Herb" posted and if you spotted the person in
> the picture and asked him, "Are you Herb" you won a prize?

Yes, I don't know the exact date but the BK campaign definitely
popularized this term. We now have evidence slightly earlier than
1993.

I don't know if the U Tenn professor was a New Yorker, but it was
not Lighter himself, if that's what Barry was actually asking.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 17 17:45:48 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:45:48 -0400
Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.134548.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See now the snopes posting on this at
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp

I just got yet another version, in which the finding is attributed to
"rscheearch [sic; that double -ch- strikes again] at Txes [sic] M&A
Uinervtisy".

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep 17 17:47:05 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:47:05 -0400
Subject: Slate article on Johnson's Dictionary
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.134705.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://slate.msn.com/id/2088405/


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Sep 17 23:18:21 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:18:21 -0700
Subject: Weekly Standard piece on LSA guidelines on sexist examples
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.161821.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This from David Skinner, who wrote that earlier piece on pronouns and
antecedents that was batted around on the list.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/113vubjh.asp

Geoff Nunberg


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 18 04:29:54 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:29:54 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <20030917144723.GA11388@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.002954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yes, I don't know the exact date but the BK campaign definitely
>popularized this term. We now have evidence slightly earlier than
>1993.

Search Google groups under "nerd [and] herb" and you'll find an item from
1986 in which BK's Herb is characterized as a "burger-chomping nerd" and a
"pencil neck geek".

I think "Herb" was an 'innocent' name previously without any association
with geekery ... there was Herb Alpert [Tijuana Brass] for example ...
possibly a "Herb" was a prosaic guy, "Joe Citizen", but not a pencil-neck
or sucker or whatever. As for "Herbert", how long ago did the Herbert
Tareyton cigarette label disappear? Surely it was still around in the 1960's?

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Sep 18 11:12:46 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:12:46 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030918001949.050613e0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.071246.0400.>

> I think "Herb" was an 'innocent' name previously without any
> association
> with geekery ... there was Herb Alpert [Tijuana Brass] for example ...
> possibly a "Herb" was a prosaic guy, "Joe Citizen", but not a
> pencil-neck
> or sucker or whatever. As for "Herbert", how long ago did the Herbert
> Tareyton cigarette label disappear? Surely it was still
> around in the 1960's?

There was a Star Trek:TOS (The Original Series) episode, "The Way To Eden"
(aired Feb 1969) where a group of bohemian "space hippies" used the name
"Herbert" as an epithet for (as defined by Spock) "a minor official
notorious for his rigid and limited patterns of thought."

And AFAIK, Herbert Tareyton cigarettes are still around. There are web sites
offering them for sale.


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 18 12:32:15 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:32:15 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.083215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:30:20 -0400
>To: dave at wilton.net
>From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at nb.net>
>Subject: Re: Herb <snip>
>
>>There was a Star Trek:TOS (The Original Series) episode, "The Way To Eden"
>>(aired Feb 1969) where a group of bohemian "space hippies" used the name
>>"Herbert" as an epithet for (as defined by Spock) "a minor official
>>notorious for his rigid and limited patterns of thought."
>
>There are a number of 'inside jokes' in "Star Trek", I'm told. Herbert
>Solow apparently was a production executive. Possibly this name was the
>inspiration.
>
>I wonder whether this would have propagated. I didn't remember it, and I
>saw the "Eden" episode ... among others.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 18 16:23:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.122347.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CARIBBEAN FOOD

   I just received the Dictionary Society of North America's "Spring 2003"
newsletter.  With only about a week left of SUMMER!
   These books are due out in the "summer," but it's not summer, because I'll
be waiting for ProQuest's Chicago Tribune in late August.  (If I can only
pick stocks or bet on horses with seasonal timing like this.)

Pg. 2:
_Jeannette Allsopp_ is working on a Caribbean Multilingual Dictionary
(Engligh, French, Spanish, French Creole).  Volume I (Flora, Fauna, Foods) is due to
be published this summer.
_Richard Allsop_ has a publication of due out this summer (?...Also, it's
ALLSOPP--ed.): _A Book of Afric-Caribbean Proverbs_.  The book will have
approximately 300 pages.  The publisher is Arawak Publications, Kingston, Jamaica.

   "Flora, Fauna, Foods" probably won't give us historical citations, but I'd
like to look at it.  It's not yet published, AFAIK.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NOTES ON THE WEST INDIES
by George Pinckard
in three volumes
London: Longman, Hurst, Rees , and Orme
1806
Reprinted in 1970 by
Negro Universities Press
A Division of Greenwood Press, Inc.
Westport, Connecticut

   OED has already gone through this book for about a dozen citations.
However, it did not include the 1806 "sandwich."  It's probably not our first New
World "sandwich," but I'll note it, anyway, for the "Sandwich Lady."


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto woman,
who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
*The negro term used for _white_.
   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.  You can hardly miss something like
this, but the OED person reading this book somehow did--ed.)

Pg. 264:  The instrumental parts of the band consist of a species of drum, a
kind of rattle, and (Pg. 265--ed.) their ever-delighting Banjar.
   (This "banjo" spelling is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 346:  At two o'clock we had commenced with punch; after which came the
mandram; at three was served dinner; busy eating and drinking continued until
five; and then appeared the sprats, and bowl of milk-punch: thus did nearly four
hours pass in high banquetting and conviviality at this social cottage.
   (The revised OED has 1756, then 1814 for "mandram"--ed.)

Pg. 372:  He entreated us, with much kindness and urgent solicitation, to
make a visit to his estate before we leave Barbadoes, apologizing in his own
mirthful way, for not having it in his power to offer us more than a "plain
farmer's dinner,--_a pig, a duck, and a turkey cock_."

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib, nor
Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves, who
proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately replies--"_Me
neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)

Pg. 97:  In the course of the forenoon are used fruits, or sandwiches, with
(Pg. 98--ed.) free libations of punch and sangaree.  Immediately preceding
dinner, which is usually at an early hour, are taken punch and mandram.

Pg. 99:  The various species of red pepper, known in England under the common
term _Cayenne_, are used in quantities that would seem incredible to people
of colder climates.

Pg. 102:  The puddings mostly used are of citron, coco-nut, yam, lemon, and
custard, and do great credit to the Barbadoes cookery-book.

Pg. 102:  At such a moment, a draught of sangaree approaches nearer, perhaps,
to god-like nectar, than any other known liquor.  It consists of half Madeira
wine and half water, acidulated with the fragrant lime, sweetened with sugar,
and flavored with nutmeg.  A stronger sort of it is sometimes drank under the
superlative name of _sangrorum_.  This differs from the former, (Pg.
103--ed.) only in containing a greater proportion of wine.
   ("Sangrorum" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied; breakfast,
dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part the same
throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn, with a
small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was given to
each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly worn
out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes, and
sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is, commonly,
issued as the weekly supply;...

Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one of
their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds of
vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very high with
capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called squashes, is
much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential, and
held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the slaves of
the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters, but
they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the eddoe.

Pg. 232:  Fortunately my bedding was not left behind with my other baggage,
and this is now put up in the windward apartment at out hospital barrack, where
I look forward to much comfort, from the protection of my musquito curtain.*
*A kind of gauze net without opening, thrown over the whole of the bed and
bedstead, and shut close at bottom, by means of a heavy border or lead, which
falls upon the floor.
   (The revised OED has 1770, then 1851 for "mosquito curtain"--ed.)

Pg. 233:  I now suffer considerably from the "prickly heat," but this would
be very supportable were it not for the additional, and greater torment of
musquitoes, ants, centipedes, jack-spaniards,* and the multitudes of other insects
biting, buzzing about our ears, crawling upon every thing we touch, and
filling the whole atmosphere around us.
*A large species of wasp.
   (OED has 1833 for "jack-spaniard...Not only is it here, in this classic
book, but it's in a note.  No way any reader can miss it--ed.)

Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of bread,
and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which loses
its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat like the
essence used under the name of soy.

Pg. 339:  We breakfasted and set off at an early hour, in order to have the
day before us, and arrived at this gentleman's abode just as he was sitting
down to his Dutch breakfast of very excellent crab soup, some fine fish, a
tongue, and a variety of other good things.  It is the custom of the Dutch to take
coffee in bed, or as soon as they rise, and to make a more substantial
breakfast of soup and solids about ten o'clock.

Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
multitudes of fruits.  Nor were the fluids of the banquet less amply administered.
Hock, Claret, Madeira, and Port wines were in liberal (Pg. 362--ed.) use.  We
had also Seltzer and Spa waters, likewise bottled small beer, ale, and
porter, with brandy, rum, Hollands, noyeau, and other liquers--all in supply
sufficient for a lord, mayor's feast.

Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food of
the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but (Pg.
423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare, and of
very delicate pork.  It is dressed without casing; the skin being considered the
most favorite part of the idsh.  This is very thick, and in cooking becomes
gelatinous, like the calves head, or turtle.  The Indians scald off the hair or
fur, then cut the animal in pieces, and stew it in cassada juice, seasoning
it very high with capsicum.  Thus prepared, it is truly delicious, and if it
could be had in London, might form a dish not unworthy the notice of a
mansion-house purveyor.
   (Laba?--ed.)

Pg. 428:  A small species of deer, called _wirrebocerra_, the laba, and the
armadillo are among the animals they most esteem.

Pg. 428:  Very commonly they prepare their food in the form of
pepper-pot--their favorite dishes being crabs, or laba, stewed with cassada (Pg. 429--ed.)
juice, and seasoned extremely hot with red pepper.
   I can give testimony to both of these being very rich and good; perhaps in
point of flavour the pepper-pot of crabs claims the preference; but wither
might be a feast for an epicure.  In one of the huts we saw part of an
armadillo, which had been broiled or roasted in its shell.  It was well-flavored, and
in appearance and taste not very unlike young pig.  Water is their common
drink, but they sometimes use a fermented liquor called _piworree_, which they make
from cassada.  This is intoxicating, and has some resemblance to beer.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 41:  Diverted with the naked little _Pickaninny_, I took her upon my
knee, and danced her about, and played with her for some time;...

Pg. 299:  ...adding a laba pepper-pot to our boat provisions,...

Pg. 317:  He had been into the woods in the morning, and killed a fine laba,
which, immediately upon our arrival, was scalded to remove (Pg. 319--ed.) its
coat, and within a few minutes it was cut in pieces, and put into the kettle
with cassada juice, pods of red peppers, and various vegetables, for the
purpose of being stewed into a most excellent pepper pot, which in a little time was
placed before us upon the table.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 18 17:55:35 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: If Gore did not invent the Internet, who did?
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.135535.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the now-notorious ADS-L Digest - 10 Sep 2003 to 11 Sep 2003 (#2003-254),
which introduced the world to the phrase "gradual student" (Brenda Lester, Thu,
11 Sep 2003 11:41:26 ):

Barry Popik (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:15:17) clearly and unambiguously refers to a
post to the ADS-L list that he made in 1956.  Considering that e-mail was not
invented until 1960 (as part of Project MAC at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology), we now have the answer to the title question.  The Internet was
invented not by Vice-President Gore but by Judge Popik.

Also we need to examine George Thompson's letter of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15
, which reads in part:
"all the members, on arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk
underware and hosiery, and some wore women's wigs.  The members made up with powder
and paint as for the stage, according to the recital by the officers, and the
orgies were attented [sic---attainted?] by at least fifty at each meeting."

(Aside: we have the noun "makeup" meaning "cosmetics" and the past participle
"made up" meaning "having had cosmetics applied", so we should not be
surprised at an active preterite form "made up" meaning "applied cosmetics to
oneself").

As a professional in the computer business, I have encountered hardware,
software, firmware, and vaporware, but I cannot recall ever having heard
"underware".  Not even from the company which back in the early 1980's manufactured
"Baby Blue"  (an add-on board to the then-new IBM PC to enable it to run CP/M
programs; the name is an obvious play on IBM's nickname of "Big Blue").

Now to be serious.  "Underware" above reminded me that I failed to report an
actual and I believe widespread computer proverb:  "That's a skinware problem"
meaning usually "that's not a problem with the computer system; the (human)
user did something dumb".  Less often it can mean "that's not a problem with
the computer; the programmer goofed."

This proverb is of course the computer jargon equivalent of "The problem was
the nut holding the wheel."

            James A. Landau
            systems engineer
            FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
            Atlantic City Int'l Airport   NJ   08405   USA


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Thu Sep 18 18:15:15 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:15:15 +0100
Subject: If Gore did not invent the Internet, who did?
In-Reply-To: <E1A030h-0002Qk-Kc@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.191515.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Déardaoin, MFómh 18, 2003, at 18:55 Europe/Dublin, James A. Landau
wrote:

> As a professional in the computer business, I have encountered
> hardware,
> software, firmware, and vaporware, but I cannot recall ever having
> heard
> "underware".  Not even from the company which back in the early 1980's
> manufactured
> "Baby Blue"  (an add-on board to the then-new IBM PC to enable it to
> run CP/M
> programs; the name is an obvious play on IBM's nickname of "Big Blue").

"Underware" is the technical term applied to the 'lost' manuals,
guarantee cards and other detritus which builds up underneath
computers. :-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Sep 18 19:34:36 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:34:36 -0400
Subject: Adirondack talk
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.153436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

Can anyone help this reporter out? Please respond directly to her,
not to me. My knowledge of this area is nil.

dInIs


I am a reporter in upstate New York interested in writing a story on
the "North Country" or "Adirondack" dialect and its origins. It might
not be a dialect, but it is an accent so strong as to be almost
unintelligible at times. So, is there  anyone around who could speak
about this? I think it has to do with French Canadian influence and
isolation within the confines of the Adirondack State Park for a
century or so.

Abigail Tucker
tucker at poststar.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 00:33:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:33:52 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1930)
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.203352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest digitization update:  No CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  No update of APS ONLINE.  LOS ANGELES TIMES to 1932, but still no "cheeseburger" or corndog" or "taco."



      LINGUISTIC CONFUSIONS OF STUDIOS DECIPHERED
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1930.                   p. B7 (1 page):
   Action--A commodity which the production office prays for.
   Alibi--A form of buck-passing; see buckle, light valve.
   Amplifier--An electrical device for making a tenor sound like a basso.
   Art--A form of alibi when box-office returns are low.
   Author--A person who sells magazine stories with one eye on the movie producers.
OVERSIZE REFRIGERATOR
   Booth==An overgrown refrigerator used to keep cameramen in a ripened condition.
   Breakaway--A trick device that always works in rehearsals, but never in scenes.
   Broad--A lighting device used to heat the back of  player's neck.
   Buckle--Mysterious camera ailment.  See alibi.
   Bungalow--Form of camera booth for Singer's Midgets.
   Cameraman--Any individual who connects the motor with the camera and lets the motor do the work.
   Cutter--A film editor in the process of hatching out.
   Cutting Room--A padded cubicle furnished with trash bins and several pairs of scissors.
   Daily Room--A small dark room where the bad news comes to light.
BEFORE AND AFTER
   Dialogue--Perfectly intelligent speech before passing through microphone.
   Dubbing--Process used to making two sounds grow where one grew before.
   Electrician--Individual who enlivens an otherwise dull scene by throwing down pieces of (illegible word--ed.) from the light platform.
   Fade-out--Device for cutting footage without shock to natives.
   Focus--Game played by cameramen with lenses and pieces of old lace curtains.
   Frameline--A dividing line over which unidentified noses, ears and microphones appear.
   Gaffer--A socially eligible electrician.
   Gamma--A Greek letter used by sound technicians to confuse the listener.
CLOTH HIDES SET
   Gobo--A black cloth hung over the set to prevent the visitors from seeing anything.
   Grip--A general utility man who enlivens rehearsals by vigorous hammering.
   Horn--The device by means of which the sound department's efforts reach the cash customers.
   Hot--a reference to temperature.  (2) A term of admiration.
   Huddle--Story conference.
   Interlock--A plaintive wail used promiscuously as a form of lung exercise.
   Lines--What actors are supposed to remember.
   Lyricist--A high-ahtted song writer.
   Make--A highly technical term.
   Mike--Excuse for a lot of easterners to come west.
   Mixer--A form of overhead.
   Option--Prelude to a one-way rail journey.
   Pan--To rotate a camera about the center; (2) to enthuse about a coworker.
   Parallel--An elevated platform for the afternoon siesta.
   Playback--Device used to find out whether the recording crew is really working.
   Practical--Any device that really works.  (Does not include cast.)
HOW TO SAVE MONEY
   Preview--A swell way to save 65 cents.
   Projection Room--An attractive form of hideaway.
   Press Agent--Semiretired publicity man.
   Props--Small knick-knacks to be taken home to furnish the living-room.
   Release Date--A date always four days prior to the time humanly possible to have a picture finished.
   Retake--Outcome of huddle.
   Schedule--Eighteen days' work in ten days.
   Spot--A hypothetical mark where an actor is supposed to stop in order to be in focus.
   Stage Control--A young man who counts loudly into the microphone for no good reason.
   Synchronization--A contributory cause to an outburst of profanity.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 01:56:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:56:01 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1925) and more
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.215601.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GOBO


      NOW COMES LEXICOGRAPHER OF WEIRD VERNACULAR USED ON HOLLYWOOD STUDIO LOTS
       FRANCIS PERRETT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 29, 1925.                   p. B6 (1 page):
   PROPS--Materials with which settings are furnished or articles used in a scene, anything from an elephant to a pin cushion.
   SHAKE 'EM--An order directing the switch operator on a set to quickly switch the lights off and on again to make them burn more steadily.
   FLAT--A canvas or composition board of varying size used to box in a set where a company is working from the rest of the stage.
   NIGGER--A composition board on a rack placed between the lights and the camera so as to keep the light from striking the lens.
   BROAD--A twin-arc Kleig light.
   BABY--A small spotlight.
   SPOT--Spotlight.
   SCRIPT--Scenario.
   CUT!--The director's order to the cameraman to stop cranking.
   FADE-IN--A scene which starts on the screen as blank film and gradually gives the various objects definite outline.
   JUVENILE:  A young leading man.
   INGENUE:  A young leading woman.
   LEAD:  The person playing the chief female or male role in a picture.
   HEAVY:  Villain.
   SHOT:  A scene.
   LOT:  Anyplace in the studio except the executive buildings, laboratories, wardrobe department, etc.
   FLAT LIGHT:  A light which strikes directly into the object or person being photographed and gives no shadows.
   FLATLIGHT BABY:  An actor whose face is so lined that only a flat light will lessen his appearance of age.
   SCENE DOCK:  Rack where scenery is kept.
   STILL:  A photograph made with an ordinary camera, not a motion-picture camera.
   FOOTAGE:  The number of feet in a picture, its length.
   DAILIES:  The result of a day's filming which the director, cameraman and, perhaps, the leading players in a company look at in the projection room after work at night.  The company always views the preceding day's work.
   RUSHES:  Same as dailies.
   CUTTER:  The person who takes the hundreds of thousands of feet of film shot on a production, cuts out the superfluous portions and assembles them in the finished form in which it is shown in theaters.
   LENS LOUSE--An actor who is always forcing his face into the camera lens.
   TRIMS--Portions of a film production eliminated in the cutting room.
   ASH CAN--A variety of spotlight.
   HOT POINTS--The cry sounded by a cameraman carrying a camera with the sharp tripod points forward, through a crowd.
   MUFF--Beard.
   BLOOD POCKETS--Artificial wounds made so as to permit "blood" to drip forth.
   TRAILER--Excerpts from a production shown at theater the week before the picture comes, to advertise the picture.
   PROP WAGON--The cabinet, mounted on wheels, in which the prop man carries the thousand-odds and end of articles which may be called into use on a set.
   HAND PROPS--Small articles.
   STRIKE--To dismantle a setting.
   DRESS--To furnish a setting.
   IRIS IN--Same as fade in.
   IRIS OUT--Same as fade out.
   SCRIPT CLERK--A clerk who sits on the set and checks the scenes as they are filmed, the number of each one, the individual attire of the players, the arrangement of the furniture and every other detail of the filming of each scene, information concerning which may be necessary at some further time.
   OK--A director's expression announcing that the scene has been filmed to his liking.
   SET 'EM UP--Placing and focusing of the cameras.
   WRAP 'EM UP--Dismantling and packing of the cameras.
   SETUP--The place where the cameras are placed.
   PARALLEL--Portable platform on which the camera is sometimes placed to gain an advantage of view, usually to shoot down on a crowd.
   ELEPHANT EAR--A form of gobo consisting of an upright post with a black card or board suspended at right angles, used to shade the camera lens from overhead light.
   HANG AN EAR ON IT--An order to place a black board at the side of a spotlight or other light to keep the rays of light from the lens of the camera.
   TAPE--Film.
   MYSTERY BOX--Motion picture camera.
   IRON PEDDLER--An electrician.
   HUNGRY--An electrician.
   SCOOP--An overhead broad.
   ROTARY--A huge spotlight that can be turned around.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GOBO

   Another "gobo" hit, but I couldn't read a word of this.  I'll check out the microfilm reel in a few minutes.


      A STRANGE LANGUAGE BORN OF UNION OF ODD JARGONS
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 17, 1929.                   p. A2 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WINDY CITY

   The following may be true.  I'd like to go to the Library of Congress again, but I've been stuck doing parking tickets all summer.  David Shulman wants to take away my free day again next week.


      WINDY CITY CALMING DOWN
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 29, 1927.                   p. 3 (1 page):
   CHICAGO, Oct. 28.  (AP)--Chicago is known as the "Windy City," but is it?
(...)
   Even without the skyscrapers, Mr. Cox said, Chicago is no windier than any other lake city, and not a bit windier than New York, still speaking meteorologically, he was careful to point out.
   The suggestion was made, however, the designation "Windy City" is not based on meteorological considerations at all.  Some old-timers say that the nickname became popular shortly after the fire of 1871 because those engaged in rebuilding "were plainly bragging about the city of the future."
(...)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:32:38 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:32:38 -0400
Subject: Not!
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.223238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a small New Jersey town.

 

>>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!' _Not!"_<<

 

John Baker

 


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:42:03 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:42:03 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA94@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.224203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 10:32:38PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a small New Jersey town.
>
>
>
> >>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!' _Not!"_<<
>

Yes, this example--which was actually first published in
1905--was quoted in Sheidlower & Lighter's _American Speech_
article on the term, and also appears in HDAS.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:46:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:46:27 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1929) and more
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.224627.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I can read the microfilm reel's page.  I'll type the whole thing.  Any typos are yours to keep.
   Pg. A2 is the automobile section..."Cake money" and "soup" and "coffee and cakes" are the few food terms here.



      A STRANGE LANGUAGE BORN OF UNION OF ODD JARGONS
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 17, 1929.                   p. A2 (1 page):
   NOW that the musical shows, the vaudeville acts and the stage plays have come to the motion picture screen, Hollywood is struggling with new additions to its already complicated vocabulary.
   Whereas in the past it was difficult enough to keep track of "broads," "gobos" and "turtles," the lay mind is apt to get groggy listening to conversations punctuated with remakrs about "grouch bags," "snakes," "cake money" and "hoofers."
   Even the players are having their vocalistic troubles.  Most of them have had stage experience, but having been for some time in the land of "soup," "truck shots," "rough cuts" and "trailers," they have gotten rusty on the footlights vernacular.
   Then there are some who did not take the stage route to pictures and who, a few weeks ago, did not know "hand sitters" from a "dumb set," or who had never heard of George Spelvin.
   To add to the vocaular difficulties on the film capital, the talkers have a few pet terms of their own.  There are "synchronize" an "interlock," for instance.  And there is the "mixer" and the "playback."
   Any seasoned film trooper will glibly tell you that a "broad" is a large light throwing broadside beams; "gobo" is a piece of heavy black cardboard set to cut off light from a section of a set, and that "turtles" are squat boxes covering connections for electrical cables.
   Some of them are still apt to hesitate and to be a little self-conscious in explaining that a "grouch bag" is the real or mythical receptacles in which a trouper carries his or her season's savings; or that a "snake" is a contortionist, and "hoofers" are dancers.
   Charles "Buddy" Rogers is one of the screen's luminaries, who has learned plenty of new expressions with the coming of the talkies.  Rogers went from University of Kansas directly to the screen, so he missed contact with the "curtain raisers," the "humpty-dumpties" and the "allez-oopers."
   He had a capable teacher in Jack Oakie.  Oakie trouped in vaudeville and did his turns in the musical shows before he went west to Hollywood.  And, as one good turn deserves another, he has voluntarily made himself Rogers' vocabular mentor.
(Last column--ed.)
   "Buddy" revealed to the willing pupil from the musical shows that "hot ropes" are electric cables carrying heavy voltage; "soup" is the chemical solution in which films are developed; the "front office" is the place where the company exectuvies hold their conferences; "cut" is an order for cameras to quit turning; "hot points" are a signal to beware of a camera being carried through a crowd with the sharp ends of the tripod foremost; "trailers" are bits of action from a film used by theaters in advertising coming attractions; "barbering the mob" is putting whiskers on extra players and "save 'em" is the chief electrician's way of ordering
 he lights turned out.  The opportunity for pupil to turn teacher came when the two were assigned feature parts in Paramount's musical play, "Close Harmony."  This being a backstage show, liberally sprinkled with vaudeville and chorus acts, Oakie was right in his element.
   On the other hand, Rogers was somewhat startled when Nancy Caroll came to his dressing room, knocked and asked, "Are you decent?"
   The indignant "Buddy" was on the point of making a warm rejoinder offering character witnesses from Olathe, Kans., to dispel any doubts, when he looked at Oakie.
   From that source he learned that "are you decent?" is an expression much in vogue among stage folks meaning "are you clothed sufficiently to receive visitors?"
   As the production progressed, he also learned that a "magic" is a magician; a "dumb" act is an acrobatic turn; working for "coffee and cakes" is playing for practically nothing while waiting for a better break; "next to closing" is the second to the last act on a vaudeville bill and the spot most desired; "hand sitters" or icicles means a cold audience that is doing no applauding; a "10 per center" is an agent; "fright wig" is a comedy wig equipped with strings that, when pulled, make the hair stand out straight; a "humpty dumpty" is an unintelligent being; "professor" is the orchestra leader, and George Spelvin is a name used in many play casts to bring good luck.
   It is easy to see that vocabulary difficulties are in the offing.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 19 03:14:12 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:14:12 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA94@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.231412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:32 PM -0400 9/18/03, Baker, John wrote:
>I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it
>isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this
>example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by
>Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a
>stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a
>small New Jersey town.
>
>
>
>  >>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike
>to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive
>cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther
>Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a
>quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!'
>_Not!"_<<
>
>
I don't have the relevant issue on me at home, but this one fits in
nicely with quite a number of the examples collected from the same
decade in the Sheidlower & Lighter paper in American Speech in 1993,
some of which were transcribed with the same heavy (purported) Irish
dialect traits.  Jesse, did you have this one?

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 08:14:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:14:18 EDT
Subject: Locro (1867, 1875); Chupe, Chuno (1875)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.041418.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Locro" is not in OED or Merriam-Webster.  There are 7,170 Google hits
(mostly Spanish), but a still considerable 1,160 English-language hits.
   "Chupe" isn't entered, either.  There are 22.200 Google hits (again,
mostly Spanish) for "chupe" and  60,900 for "chupes."
   OED has "chuno" from 1909.
   We don't have to historically research every "Nuevo Latino" dish that
Douglas Rodriguez serves up, but why not?



LATIN LADLES:
FABULOUS SOUPS & STEWS FROM THE KING OF NUEVO LATINO CUISINE
by Douglas Rodriguez
Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press
128 pages, paperback, $17.95

Pg. 52:
CHUPE DE MARISCO
[lick-your-fingers-good seafood chowder]
_Chupes_ are South American chowders, usually made with potatoes, vegetables,
and some type of meat or seafood for flavoring.  _Chupe_ might have derived
from the Spanish word _chupar_, which means "to suck" or "to absorb."  Chupes
are so delicious,you'll want to run your finger around the inside of the bowl
and lick off every last drop.  South Americans believe that a chupe is no good
if it doesn't make you sweat.  So  the soup has to be spicy and served piping
hot.  I like to use big shrimp because I think it's important to see their
color and half-moon shape in the soup.  A classical garnish for this soup would
be hard-boiled eggs, but it's delicious with or without them.  With a salad and
a piece of country-style bread, this soup is a meal.

Pg. 86:
LOCRO DE PAPAS
[creamy peasant-style potato soup]
_Locro_ is a very simple, peasant-style soup that always has potatoes in it.
There are many kinds of locros; this happens to be one of my favorites.  Make
sure to use gold potatoes, as the Ecuadoreans do.



FOUR YEARS AMONG THE ECUADORIANS
by Friedrich Hassaurek
edited and with an introduction by C. Harvey Gardiner
Carbondale and Edwardsville: Southern Illinois Univeristy Press
1967
Originally published as FOUR YEARS AMONG THE SPANISH-AMERICANS
1867 first edition
1868 second edition
1881 third edition

   This is a classic book about Ecuador.  It's been around for over 130
years.  OED missed it completely.

Pg. 3:  At night the air is rent by the lively and sometimes witty
exclamations of boys, offering for sale a kind of candy called carmelo, tallow candles,
tamales (a peculiar dish of the country), ice cream, if ice happens to be in
town, etc.

Pg. 19:  Their food they generally carry with them.  It always consists of a
quantity of barley meal, which they eat raw, a few pieces of aji (cayenne
pepper), which they take like fruit, and sometimes a bag of toasted Indian corn.
These provisions maintain them during the day, and in the evening they mostly
manage to get, either at the expense of the traveler or the chief arriero, a
plate of locro (a potato soup, mixed up with cheese, eggs, and Spanish pepper).


Pg. 146:  The breakfast consisted, as usual, of locro de queso (a potato soup
with cheese and aji), fried eggs, with baked plantain slices and toasted
bread, some meat, and to my utter astonishment, chocolate...

Pg. 153:  The stock offered for sale consisted of the common rum of the
country (aguardiente), distilled from the sugarcane of the province, and preserved
in hides; of anisadas (rum seasoned with anise seed), and of mistelas
(sweetened liquors).

Pg. 153:  They were the cookshops, and aji de cuy, aji de queso, aji de
lobrillo, locro, cariucho, and other national dishes, were prepared for those who
had money to pay for them.  As potatoes form the principal ingredient of all
these dishes, but very little money was required.  No crockery was used.  The
eatables were filled from the pots into calabashes.  Ladles were generally
wanting, smaller calabashes supplying their places.

Pg. 175:  Here they sell macanas (a sort of narrow cotton shawl), ponchos,
wool, cotton, beads, rosaries, leaden crosses, strings of glass pearls, collars
and bracelets of false corrals, and other cheap ornaments; meat, fruit,
vegetables, salt, aji, barley meal, and such popular dishes ready made, as cariucho,
locro, choclos, mashca, toasted corn, etc.



THE ANDES AND THE AMAZON:
OR, ACROSS THE CONTINENT OF SOUTH AMERICA
by James Orton
New York: Harper & Brothers
1875

Pg. 36:  For food they carry a bag of parched corn, another bag of roasted
barley-meal (_mashka_), and a few red peppers.

Pg. 44:  ...prepared for us a calabash of chicken and _locro_.  _Locro_, the
national dish in the mountains, is in plain English simply potato soup.

Pg. 84:  The aim of Ecuadorian cookery is to eradicate all natural flavor;
you wouldn't know you were eating chicken except by the bones.  Even coffee and
chocolate somehow lose their fine Guayaquilian aroma in this high altitude,
and the very pies are stuffed with onions.  But the beef, minus the garlic, is
most excellent, and the _dulce_ unapproachable.

Pg. 193:  Guayusa, or "Napo tea," is another and celebrated production of
Archidona.  It is the large leaf of a tall shrub growing wild.  An infusion of
(Pg. 194--ed.)  guayusa, like the _mate_ of Paraguay (which belongs to the same
genus _Ilex_), is so refreshing it supplies for a long time the place of food.

Pg. 403:  Then, too, the traveler from the mountains, who has been feeding on
_chupe_ and _chicha_, and balancing his worn body on a reckless mule, or a
horse that has nearly reverted to the wild state, transferred to a sumptuous
English steamer, is put into the best of humor, and is ready to bow down to
almost any sign of civilization.

Pg. 423:  Here the Aymara women (who do most of the business) squat on the
ground in rows, each with the little pile of _charqui_ (jerked beef), fish,
dried potatoes (called _chuno_), ocas, _aji_ (red peppers), beans, pease, maize,
barley, quinoa, coca, and clay.

Pg. 514:  The liquor made from Bananas is called _mazato_.

Pg. 518:  The chicha made from it (Pg. 519--ed.) is called "masato."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 13:00:27 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:00:27 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bb902461c325@[130.132.231.173]>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.090027.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 11:14:12PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >
> I don't have the relevant issue on me at home, but this one fits in
> nicely with quite a number of the examples collected from the same
> decade in the Sheidlower & Lighter paper in American Speech in 1993,
> some of which were transcribed with the same heavy (purported) Irish
> dialect traits.  Jesse, did you have this one?

Yes, this was in the article (and HDAS).

Jesse


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:18:28 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:18:28 EDT
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.101828.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15,  George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
quoted:

>This was a series of stories in the LATimes from November 14, 1914 and
after.  The >headline to the original story was:
>LONG BEACH UNCOVERS "SOCIAL VAGRANT" CLAN.
>Thirty Men Heavily Fined or Given County-jail Sentences -- Church and
Business >men Included in List of Guilty Ones who, Police Say They Have Evidence to
Show, >were Organized for Immoral Purposes.  [from the story:] Officers Warren
and Brown >say that Lowe unfolded to them before his arrest a story of the
existence of a >society of "social vagrants," called the "606," whose members
were all men and >who met weekly.  ***  At the functions of this peculiar
society all the members, on >arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk
underware and hosiery, and some >wore women's wigs.  The members made up with
powder and paint as for the stage, >according to the recital by the officers, and
the orgies were attented by at least fifty >at each meeting.

>Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1914, section II, p. 8  I do not find
"social >vagrant" in the on-line OED.

>[A police officer testifies:]  [Lowe] came [into the room] again, while I
was lying on >the bed.  He asked me if I had ever heard of the Six-O-Six Club
and the Ninety-six >Club.  I said I had not.  He said that the Ninety-six Club
was the best; that it was >composed of the 'queer' people, that got together
every week.  I asked Lowe why >they called it the Ninety-six Club, and he said
someting about turning the letters >around, before and behind.  He said that
the members sometimes spent hundreds >of dollars on silk gowns, hosiery, etc.,
in which they dressed at sessions of this >club.  He said that at these 'drags'
the 'queer' people have a good time, but no one >could get in without being
introduced by a member in good standing.

M-W, both 10th and 11th Collegiates, dates "606" as 1910.  "606" is one of
the names of the drug arsphenamine, the first drug specific against
syphilis---it refers to it being the 606th drug tested for activity against syphilis.

Is it possible that this group of transvestites named their organization "The
Anti-Syphilis Club"?

M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.  In any case, you have an
indirect antedating, via the reversal to "96", of the sexual meaning of "69".

In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the French term
"soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
what was really a piece of pornography?

>HDAS has "drag", noun, 4b, "Homosex., a party held for transvestites and
male >homosexuals", with quotations from 1927 (2), 1930, 1933, &c.  It has
"ninety-six", >"Homosex., homosexual anal intercourse", with quotations from 1925,
1949, and >"1947-51".  The 1949 passage reads "California term for reciprocal
anal >intercourse".

I find it difficult to believe that "reciprocal anal intercourse" is
physically possible.

                   - James A. Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:25:26 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:25:26 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <187.1f58710f.2c9c6a34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.102526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 19, 2003 at 10:18:28AM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
> of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
> second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.  In any case, you have an
> indirect antedating, via the reversal to "96", of the sexual meaning of "69".
>
> In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
> case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the French term
> "soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
> lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
> what was really a piece of pornography?

OED cites _soixante-neuf_ to 1888, though I think I've since found
earlier evidence. We have consistent evidence for the use of the
French term in English.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 14:33:40 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:33:40 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.093340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just wondered if anyone's ever heard or knows the origins of the
expression 'Japanese fire drill"-- which, when I was younger, was a
prank teens did-- they'd stop the car, get out, run around the car and
get back in again, much to the annoyance of motorists behind them.

Just curious.

Patti Kurtz
Assistant professor, English
Minot State University
--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:50:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:50:15 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.105015.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.

Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.  The
actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied in a
1942-5 cite.

I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
the car.

SC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 10:33 AM
Subject: Japanese fire drill


> Just wondered if anyone's ever heard or knows the origins of the
> expression 'Japanese fire drill"-- which, when I was younger, was a
> prank teens did-- they'd stop the car, get out, run around the car and
> get back in again, much to the annoyance of motorists behind them.
>
> Just curious.
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Assistant professor, English
> Minot State University
> --
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
> Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape!
> http://shopnow.netscape.com/
>


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Fri Sep 19 14:50:23 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:50:23 -0700
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <200309191418.h8JEIgW8007834@mtac2.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.075023.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote in the middle of a
fascinating posting:

>In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
>case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the
>French term
>"soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
>lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
>what was really a piece of pornography?

I remember reading the French phrase in Harlan Ellison's collection
of essays in television criticism _The Glass Teat_ (1970), with an
implication in the context of heterosexual activity. A man was
certainly involved, and I don't recall any hint of homosexuality in
the passage; if the memory of my libidinous teenage reading is
correct the context was a description of an interview with a champion
skier in which the interviewer stressed in a fashion interpreted by
HE as lewd the skier's practice of sticking his tongue out while
going down the slopes in competition. I believe the skier was
European - Swiss? French? it *has* been over 30 years! - and his
nationality may have been a factor is HE's choice of vocabulary.

It's an appallingly small sample to go by and my example may be
tainted by a French connection, but perhaps the phrase picked up in
popularity at that time?

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:03:32 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:03:32 EDT
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.110332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
quotes inter alia:


> Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto woman,
> who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
> *The negro term used for _white_.
>   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
> citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.

Any connectin to the word "buckaroo"?

>
> Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
> conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib,
> nor
> Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves,
> who
> proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
> one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> replies--"_Me
> neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
>   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)

Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or something,
for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in the
dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.


>
> Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
> inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied;
> breakfast,
> dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part the
> same
> throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn, with
> a
> small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was
> given to
> each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly worn
> out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes, and
> sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is, commonly,
> issued as the weekly supply;...

What is "Guinea corn"?  It can't be maize, listed as "an occasional change".

Also, what is an "eddoe"? (also occurs in the next paragraph)

> Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one of
> their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
> inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds of
> vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very high
> with
> capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called
> squashes, is
> much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential, and
> held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the
> slaves of
> the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters, but
> they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the eddoe.

"cassda" is a typo for "cassada" (the spelling used in the next paragraph)?

> Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of bread,
> and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which
> loses
> its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat like
> the
> essence used under the name of soy.

The reference to "poisonous" quality makes it fairly certain that "cassada"
is cassava, also called manioc.


> Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
> multitudes of fruits.

water-lemons?  Shouldn't that be "water-melons"?


> Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food of
> the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but
> (Pg.
> 423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare, and of
> very delicate pork.

If a laba resembles a hare, then is is possible the word comes from the
French "lapin" (rabbit)?

          - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:16:58 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:16:58 EDT
Subject: Laba
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.111658.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try Googling on +laba+Guyana.

from URL <A HREF="http://westhobbsstreetchurchofchrist.org/Missions/Guyana/guyana_report_jul_2002.htm">
http://westhobbsstreetchurchofchrist.org/Missions/Guyana/guyana_report_jul_2002.htm</A>

"We had another good meal at the La Caribe  tonight. Rusty has even mentioned 
that he may be going for the Laba sometime  this week, Jimmy Dunn had it on 
one of his trips. In case you do not know  what a Laba is…. Imagine a rat and 
then multiply the size by 20. It is a  rodent the size if a cocker spaniel. I’m 
thinking this must have been a dare  by Jimmy. I personally seem to be 
leaning towards the chicken. It’s hard to  beat good yardbird!"

         - James A. Landau



From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:34:51 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:34:51 EDT
Subject: Laba
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.113451.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

URL <A HREF="http://amazonas.rds.org.co/libros/48/Texto.htm">http://amazonas.rds.org.co/libros/48/Texto.htm</A>   (in Spanish)

The "laba" is better known in English as the "agouti".  It is the Agouti paca
of Family Agoutidae.

In Venezuela it is called "lapa" or "laba", in Columbia "boruga", in Brazil
"paca", in Guyana "labba" [apparently spelled with only one "b" in tourist
restaurants], and in Panama "conejo pintado".

Barry Popik may or may not be interested in the photographs on this Web site,
but I am sure he will be glad to know that laba meat is 19.56 percent protein
and 7.53 percent fat.

     - James A. Landau


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 16:02:46 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:02:46 -0400
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.120246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RHDAS suggest that "buckaroo" comes from the Spanish "vaquero", not from any
African language, and cites AS   XVII 10-15, XXXV 51-55, and LIII 4951, LIV
151-153.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)


> In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
> quotes inter alia:
>
>
> > Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto
woman,
> > who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
> > *The negro term used for _white_.
> >   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
> > citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.
>
> Any connectin to the word "buckaroo"?
>
> >
> > Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the
sentiment
> > conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither
Charib,
> > nor
> > Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the
slaves,
> > who
> > proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!
Ask
> > one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> > replies--"_Me
> > neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
> >   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)
>
> Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or
something,
> for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in
the
> dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.
>
>
> >
> > Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
> > inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied;
> > breakfast,
> > dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part
the
> > same
> > throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn,
with
> > a
> > small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was
> > given to
> > each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly
worn
> > out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes,
and
> > sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is,
commonly,
> > issued as the weekly supply;...
>
> What is "Guinea corn"?  It can't be maize, listed as "an occasional
change".
>
> Also, what is an "eddoe"? (also occurs in the next paragraph)
>
> > Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one
of
> > their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
> > inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds
of
> > vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very
high
> > with
> > capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called
> > squashes, is
> > much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential,
and
> > held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the
> > slaves of
> > the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters,
but
> > they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the
eddoe.
>
> "cassda" is a typo for "cassada" (the spelling used in the next
paragraph)?
>
> > Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of
bread,
> > and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which
> > loses
> > its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat
like
> > the
> > essence used under the name of soy.
>
> The reference to "poisonous" quality makes it fairly certain that
"cassada"
> is cassava, also called manioc.
>
>
> > Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
> > multitudes of fruits.
>
> water-lemons?  Shouldn't that be "water-melons"?
>
>
> > Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food
of
> > the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but
> > (Pg.
> > 423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare,
and of
> > very delicate pork.
>
> If a laba resembles a hare, then is is possible the word comes from the
> French "lapin" (rabbit)?
>
>           - James A. Landau
>


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 17:42:30 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:42:30 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309191049.1b3f6b17732e0@rly-na02.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.124230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:

>It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
>called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
>
>Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.  The
>actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied in a
>1942-5 cite.
>
>I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
>the car.
>
>
>
I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."

Thanks.

Patti


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 17:49:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:49:16 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.134916.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I guess the next question I would have is "when" did you grow up in
Pittsburgh and hear the word.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Japanese fire drill


> sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:
>
> >It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
> >called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
> >
> >Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.
The
> >actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied
in a
> >1942-5 cite.
> >
> >I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
> >the car.
> >
> >
> >
> I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
> Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
> Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>
> Thanks.
>
> Patti
>


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Sep 19 17:50:07 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:50:07 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <187.1f58710f.2c9c6a34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.135007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 19 Sep 2003, at 10:18, James A. Landau wrote:

> M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
> of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
> second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.

A violation of policy, yes, resulting from a dater's error -- evidently
made twice!  Thanks for pointing this out, Jim.  I'll fix it asap.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Sep 19 17:54:48 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:54:48 -0400
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
In-Reply-To: <16f.23e7449c.2c9c74c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.135448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:03 AM 9/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
>quotes inter alia:
>
>
> >
> > Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
> > conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib,
> > nor
> > Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves,
> > who
> > proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
> > one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> > replies--"_Me
> > neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
> >   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)
>
>Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or something,
>for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in the
>dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.

Cf. Bajan, Cajun, Injun, immejate (=immediate)--very common in British
English-derived dialects, and then adopted by others as accepted usages or
for mocking/stereotyping (Cajun, Injun).


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 19:59:50 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:59:50 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309191348.243f6b4167f2@rly-na03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.145950.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry-- I lived in Pittsburgh in the 1960's and 70's  and was in high
school during the early 70's

sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Sam Clements <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Japanese fire drill
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I guess the next question I would have is "when" did you grow up in
>Pittsburgh and hear the word.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:42 PM
>Subject: Re: Japanese fire drill
>
>
>
>
>>sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
>>>called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
>>>
>>>Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.
>>>
>>>
>The
>
>
>>>actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied
>>>
>>>
>in a
>
>
>>>1942-5 cite.
>>>
>>>I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
>>>the car.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
>>Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
>>Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Patti
>>
>>
>>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 20:04:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:04:15 -0400
Subject: Chinese Fire Drill antedating(1946)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.160415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED doesn't seem to list this term.  Of course, I could be wrong.
M-W doesn't list it either.

RHDAS has 1952(Leon Uris).  They have an indirect cite from "1942-45" which
has the same meaning but says "fouled up like a Filipino at fire-drill."

>From June 5, 1946, The Coshocton(OH) Tribune, p.8 (the sports page--ed.)

     "As far as Burton was concerned, everything was fouled up like a
Chinese fire drill as Hogan finished with his plus 51 to lead Lloyd
Mangrum."

SC


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Sep 19 20:08:20 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:08:20 -0700
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.130820.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or
something,
> for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in
the
> dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.
>
How about Cajun<Acadian and educate?
Fritz


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:24:53 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:24:53 -0400
Subject: Minor antedating of Chinese Checkers(1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.172453.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED doesn't list, as far as I could find.
M-W says 1938.
I couldn't find any antedating in the archive.

>From the Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram, December 7, 1937,  p. 4:

     "Chinese Checkers furnished the entertainment of the evening and Mr.
Schouherr was presented with many fine gifts."

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:37:05 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:37:05 -0400
Subject: "haggies" from a 2000 posting about the Bronx
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.173705.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry posted some terms from a Bronx lexicon which he found in a Barnes and
Noble.  No date, etc.

The term that intrigued me was "Haggies."  He cited it thusly from the book:

     25.  Haggies or No Haggies...When someone bought a box of candy, you
would
yell haggies and he would have to share with you unless that person had
shouted no haggies first

    "Haggies" is, unfortunately, not in DARE.  It is the rare term that's
not
found on ANY of my search engines (Nexis, Dow Jones, Alta Vista, Lycos,
Infoseek, Deja News, et al.).  Someone from the Bronx had once asked me
about
"haggies."

There were a few replies but no answer.

I first learned of "Heggy's" candy from Cleveland, OH. when I moved up here
in the 1970's.  I wonder if there is a connection?  I know it's reaching.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 19 21:46:18 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:46:18 -0400
Subject: Minor antedating of Chinese Checkers(1937)
In-Reply-To: <200309192124.h8JLO4u07138@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.174618.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Sam Clements wrote:

> OED doesn't list, as far as I could find.
> M-W says 1938.
>
> >From the Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram, December 7, 1937,  p. 4:
>      "Chinese Checkers furnished the entertainment of the evening and Mr.
> Schouherr was presented with many fine gifts."

Here's an earlier citation:

1936 _N.Y. Times_ 22 Mar. 11  Ching Gong (Chinese checkers) provides
checkers with a fast moving twist, which either 2 or 3 people can play.
Get all your men in the opposite triangle bearing your clor by moves and
jumps over any men on the board, and in the same position as the original
set-up.

(There are 1922 and 1923 articles in the _Los Angeles Times_ that describe
mah jongg as "Chinese checkers.")

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:37:44 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:37:44 -0400
Subject: confirmation of apartheid (1917)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.173744.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I pass along the following quotation.  I am looking for confirmation.

The word apartheid was coined by General Smuts at the Savoy Hotel, London,
on May 27, 1917, but was not much used until 1947 when Dr Malan, the then
prime minister of South Africa, was looking for a word to soften the edge
of _segregasie_, segregation.  Terry Coleman, "The creed of Africa's race
apart," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_, Jan. 6, 1985, p 8

Thanks for any help in confirming this account.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Sep 19 22:51:32 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:32 -0700
Subject: Googits
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.155132.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just thought I should mention the occurrence of "Googit", a Google hit.
Google seems to give only two hits, one without a capital "g", for this
meaning.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 20 00:37:56 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:37:56 EDT
Subject: Talk Like a Pirate Day
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.203756.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone mentioned that today is Talk Like a Pirate Day?

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/

the site includes an automatic English-to-Pirate Translator:

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/translator.html

I ran into difficulties with the translator. Maybe because too many people
are trying to use it today.
- Allan Metcalf


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep 20 00:41:16 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:41:16 -0400
Subject: Googits
In-Reply-To: <006501c37f00$9640c2e0$d8b0fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.204116.0400.>

> Just thought I should mention the occurrence of "Googit", a
> Google hit.
> Google seems to give only two hits, one without a capital
> "g", for this
> meaning.

The folks on my site's discussion board use "googlit," but this seems to be
confined to that discussion group only. Google gives two English language
hits for "googlit," both from my discussion forum.

There is also one Google hit on "to googlit" as a contraction for the verb
phrase "to google it".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 20 02:37:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:37:56 EDT
Subject: Tuna, Clams Casino in SAVEUR (Oct. 2003)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.223756.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The October 2003 SAVEUR (at my local supermarket newsstand, next to
articles about the heartbreak of Jennifer Lopez), has a cover story "WHY WE LOVE
CANNED TUNA."  Alas, it was a short article for a cover story, and it wasn't
written by Andrew Smith.  No dates were provided for "tuna" or "Tuna-Noodle
Casserole."
   I e-mailed New Zealand's Papers Past and asked for its first citation for
"tuna."  You can pull up the old New Zealand newspapers, but how do you
conduct searches?  Maybe Fred Shapiro has mastered this thing and can tell me his
first "tuna" from Australia/New Zealand, or maybe someone from Oz can tell
"tuna"?
   SAVEUR's cover mentions a story of "Sure Bet CLAMS CASINO."  I thought it
a sure bet that it would miss my work on "clams casino."  Of course, it missed
my work on "clams casino."


MISC.:
   I've posted some work on "Not!"...No more parking tickets, please, for the
rest of my life?


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Sep 20 02:39:13 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:39:13 -0500
Subject: glurge
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.213913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From http://www.snopes.com/glurge/:
What is glurge? Think of it as chicken soup with several cups of sugar
mixed in: It's supposed to be a method of delivering a remedy for what
ails you by adding sweetening to make the cure more appealing, but the
result is more often a sickly-sweet concoction that induces
hyperglycemic fits.

In ordinary language, glurge is the sending of inspirational (often
supposedly "true") tales that conceal much darker meanings than the
uplifting moral lessons they purport to offer, and that undermine their
messages by fabricating and distorting historical fact in the guise of
offering a "true story."


--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Sep 20 03:13:03 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:13:03 -0400
Subject: number dating
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.231303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to establish when dates such as December 25, 1941, started to
be written as 12/25/41.  Any leads would be appreciated.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep 20 20:59:52 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:59:52 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309161308350.30674-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.165952.0400.>

I spent a good part of today leafing through the 1950-51 issues of "Aviation
Week" (the zine isn't digitized this far back) looking for references to
Murphy's Law and paying special attention to advertisements. I found
nothing, not even ads based on a similar theme. I could have missed
something, but I don't think so.

I did find a short article on one of Stapp's rocket sled tests in early
1950. There was no mention of anything resembling the famous maxim. This
article could, however, been generated by the same press conference that
gave birth to the maxim.

National coverage by major media of Stapp's tests didn't really begin until
1954 though. This makes me wonder if the 1949 date is not off by a few years
and the infamous press conference was not in fact until 1954. I found the
following quote in a wire service article, "Rocket Sled Ride a Black and Red
Blur," penned by Stapp from 29 Dec 1954--appearing on page 4 of the
Washington Post the next day:

"But I have learned to rely on the engineers and mechanics to take care of
everything foreseeable and to accept the unforeseen and unknown as the
payoff part of the experiement."

This is the closest I've come to a contemporary account of Stapp's tests
that expresses anything even thematically similar to Murphy's Law.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Fred Shapiro
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:41 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
>
>
> Several years Barry Popik undertook magnificent research into
> the origins
> of "Murphy's Law."  He travelled around the country, looked at key
> sources, and was unable to find any documentation of the "Law" earlier
> than 1955.  His research was so extensive that he was able to
> suggest that
> the standard account of the "Law" being coined at Edwards Air
> Force Base
> in 1949 was problematic since the supposed 1949 coinage seemed to have
> left no trace in sources where one would have thought there would be a
> trace.
>
> I have no "smoking gun" to offer proving the standard
> account.  However, I
> have just spent a half hour talking on the phone to George
> Nichols, the
> project manager who, according to the standard account, "developed the
> maxim from a remark made by a colleague, Captain E. Murphy" (Concise
> Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs).  The salient points of the
> conversation
> are as follows:
>
> 1. Nichols, although in his early 80s, was extremely sharp and his
> memories seemed to be clear.  Throughout the conversation he
> stuck to the
> standard account in a consistent manner.  Although I am quite
> impressed by
> Barry's evidence (or, rather, nonevidence) and know as well
> as anyone how
> prevalent etymological misconceptions and mistaken memories
> are, I have to
> conclude that Nichols' story is most likely factual.
>
> 2. Nichols says that the original formulation was "If it can
> happen, it
> will happen."  This was not what Murphy said, it was what Nichols said
> after Murphy made some statement about someone else's error.
> Nichols did
> not regard "If anything can go wrong, it will" as the
> original Murphy's
> Law.  He says "If it can happen, it will happen" was the
> version used in
> the 1950 press conference.
>
> 3. Nichols dismissed any later statements by Edward A. Murphy, Jr. as
> attempts by Murphy, three decades later, to assert his own
> importance as
> Murphy's Law became famous in the late 1970s.  According to Nichols,
> Murphy played a minor role in the original coinage.
>
> 4. I pressed Nichols as to where there might be some contemporaneous
> documentation of the press conference or its aftermath.  He
> said that such
> documentation would be in advertisements in technical journals in the
> months after the press conference.
>
> That's it.  It seems that the most promising avenue for
> future research is
> in technical journals dated 1950.
>
> P.S.  I have previously posted that I have found a 1941 version of
> Murphy's Law, not from an aviation or engineering context.
> This is true,
> but I want to emphasize that this is a similar quotation, not
> really part
> of the main story of Murphy's Law.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY
> OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 20 23:25:17 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:25:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "knucklehead" (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.192517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W says 1942.
HDAS has 1942.  (They DO have a 1939 cite that uses "knuckleheaded," but
it's ambiguous:  "And you're just a knuckle-headed farmer girl."  More
below).
OED has 1944

>From the Nevada State Journal of June 26, 1938:

     "...Wm. "Bill" Hopper, president of the First National Bank of Nevada,
has decided to drag the novice or greenpea out into the open where all may
take a look and to the tune of a beautiful trophy and fancy cash prize, but
"ye knucklehead" must pay an entry fee to show his skill in the arena, and
natural skill it must be...."

It certainly predates a simple military explanation.  Implies a novice
rather than a stupid person.  Might the HDAS cite for "knuckle-headed farmer
girl" imply a novice/greenhorn rather than a dumbbell?

What do you make of this?

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 00:47:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:47:15 -0400
Subject: Murphy; Veggie (1955); Cream Cyclone; Burritoria
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.204715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'll probably go to the Library of Congress this Thursday.  I've requested the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER (1872-1875) and the GALVESTON NEWS (1840s-1850s).  I'm going for the whole enchilada.  The LOC was closed the past few days because of the storm.
   I've got a lot more Trinidad/South American material that I'll get to in another post.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MURPHY & AVIATION WEEK

   No early "Murphy's Law" was found in AVIATION WEEK?  I'm not surprised.  The LOS ANGELES TIMES project is up to the 1930s.  Just take it easy and wait for the 1950s.  Edwards AFB news should hit this newspaper before the NEW YORK TIMES.
   Oh, those wonderful hours spent reading AVIATION WEEK...

Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:10:12 EDT
Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List <ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu>
From:         "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
Subject:      Jump?  How high?; More "Murphy"
Comments: To: ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

MURPHY'S LAW (continued)

   Nothing is ever easy.
   Some checking was done for the 5 January 1950 alleged date for the John
Paul Stapp news conference.  Nothing comes up in the LOS ANGELES TIMES,
AVIATION WEEK, and AMERICAN AVIATION.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VEGGIES

   Merriam-Webster's 11th gives 1955 for "veggie."  It's here in 1955 on Ancestry.com, but it means "vegetarians"--the people who eat vegetables, not the vegetables themselves.  Make the entry a double veggie.


    18 August 1955, NEWPORT DAILY NEWS (Newport, Rhode Island), pg.8, col. 4:
 Robert Ruark
 _The Vegetable Way of Life_
    The International Vegetarian Union has been meeting in Paris, and I see that my friend Master Arthur Buchwald has done his usual fine, snide, deadpan job on the carrot-munchers.
 (...)
    As a keen aficionado of what the (Col. 5--ed.) veggies call "vulture food," which is to say meat, I manage to control my emotion over the plight of a four-year-old steer which has been cannibalizing innocent corn for some weeks in a stockyard pen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREAM CYCLONE

   I walked down Eighth Avenue and ate at Jerry's Kitchen, but didn't have enough room for the "Cream Cyclone."  I thought there would be other Google hits for a "lemonade and vanilla ice cream" drink, but there doesn't seem to be.

http://www.gotham2go.com/menus/jerryskitchen.html
Cream Cylcone (lemonade with vanilla ice cream)... 3.00

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BURRITORIA

   A "burritoria" is also on Eighth Avenue.  "Burritoria" on the Kitchen Market's sign, but doesn't appear to be on its web site.
   This was probably not coined by Marian Burros.

http://www.kitchenmarket.com
BURRITORIA--33 Google hits


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 07:40:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:40:33 EDT
Subject: Taco Salad (1961)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.034033.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Cobb Salad" is not yet in the LOS ANGELES TIMES database (through 1932).
It's here in this 1961 article with "taco salad," but the salads' origins are
not explained.
   "Taco Salad" has an incredible 45,200 Google hits.  It's not in the
OED...This is about a decade before all the other Ancestry hits (1970s+).  There's
one "taco salad" allegedly in "1960," but the top of the page clearly has
"1986."


   31 August 1961, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, PA), pg. 3, col. 6:
_SCRIBE SAYS_
_"SALADS" BEST_
_IN CALIFORNIA_
   By BOB THOMAS
   AP Movie-Salad Writer
(...)
   In California you can get salads in abundant variety.  Even a fried salad.
 This sounds like a misnomer but it's a taco--shredded lettuce, cheese,
tomato sauce and Mexican sausage wrapped in a deep-fried tortilla.
(...)
_BROWN DERBY SPECIAL_
   The Brown Derby's special is the Cobb salad, named after bossman Bob Cobb.
 It's great for people too tired to chew, because it's all chopped fine as
confetti.
(...)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 21 11:45:22 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:45:22 -0400
Subject: Taco Salad (1961)
In-Reply-To: <172.1ff57c24.2c9eaff1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.074522.0400.>

>    In California you can get salads in abundant variety.
> Even a fried salad.
>  This sounds like a misnomer but it's a taco--shredded
> lettuce, cheese,
> tomato sauce and Mexican sausage wrapped in a deep-fried tortilla.

This doesn't sound like a "taco salad." Nor do they use those exact words.
What is being described is a plain old taco. The use of "salad" is simply a
(poor) attempt to describe it to those unfamiliar with Mexican food.


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 15:32:55 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:32:55 EDT
Subject: McKean and Fiske
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.113255.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
Dictionary  by Mark Halpern

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp</A>



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Sun Sep 21 15:53:44 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:53:44 -0700
Subject: Article on _The Chambers Dictionary_
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.085344.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1039692003

On the occasion of the recent publication of its ninth edition.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 21 16:18:52 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:18:52 -0400
Subject: McKean and Fiske
In-Reply-To: <105.3654c429.2c9f1ea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.121852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Sep 21, 2003 at 11:32:55AM -0400, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote:
> Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> Dictionary  by Mark Halpern

Is this just advertising, or did you intend for people to discuss
it here, in which case making the text available might help?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sun Sep 21 16:39:18 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael B Quinion)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:39:18 +0100
Subject: Article on _The Chambers Dictionary_
In-Reply-To: <p06002006bb9379b0bf0f@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.173918.0100.>

> http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1039692003
>
> On the occasion of the recent publication of its ninth edition.

"We don’t include words that trivialise the language". Discuss? For
more on this new edition of Chambers, and on the recent new edition
of Collins (at which this barb is almost certainly directed) see also

 http://www.worldwidewords.org/reviews/re-fou1.htm

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep 21 17:35:25 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:35:25 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.133525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Might "dickhead" be a calque?  HDAS has 1962 and Merriam-Webster 1964.  However, it apparently is a much older term in Italian.  According to news reports, the Ashmolean Museum recently purchased a plate made by ceramicist Francesco Urbini in the 16th century and showing a head made up of around 50 fleshy penises.  The head is framed by a garland carrying the inscription: "Ogni homo me guarda come fosse una testa de cazi."   According to the Reuters account, this means "Every man looks at me as if I were a dickhead"; the phrase is still a common term of abuse in Italy and elsewhere, according to Reuters.  The link is

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030918/od_nm/plate_dc_1


John Baker


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 21 18:59:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:59:39 -0400
Subject: Alligators in the sewers--another piece of the puzzle?
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.145939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sorry if this isn't appropriate for this list.  I searched and found
Barry's find of a 1907 article.  But it doesn't seem as though that started
the stories.

I also read Barbara Mikkelson's article over at
http://www.snopes.com/critters/lurkers/gator.htm which was mentioned in an
earlier thread on here.

In reading over at ancestry.com, searching a column written about NY life by
"George Swan," I came across this bit of info from one of his 1933 columns:

     "Between the months of February and April, New York is seasonnally
presented with "the great alligator mystery."
    For no particular reason that anyone can verify, numerous small
alligators begin to appear where they never were before.  There is something
of the late Houdini and even the suggestion of a miracle in the phenomenon.
   Little 'gators appear in the trickling fountains of hotel lobbies; they
seem to drop from the very air into the large fish tanks of foyers and
lobbies; they suddenly commingle with snails and goldfish of public
aquariums.  Witnesses testify that at the beginning of an evening there will
be no sign of an alligator anywhere.  And in the morning---lo, there is one
of the darn things splashing about.  Suspects, called in deny any knowledge
of collusion.

   This has been going on for years.  And from one of my secret agents I
believe I have at last found an explanation.  Prankish Florida winter-goers,
inclined to practical jokes and all that,  (sic)back to friends a pet little
'gator such as can easily be purchasedd at the southern resort places; or
bring a 'gator back as a present.  Once in New York, the bathtub appears to
be about the only possible habitat at the moment.  Then the possessor, going
about places, notices fountains and pools and fish tanks in cafes and hotels
and gets a bright idea.  Feeling sorry for the alligator, he puts it in a
brief case or a week-end bag and starts out.  Standing about until no one is
looking, he slips the alligator into the fish pond and exits.
   It so happens that, in two instances, someone caught culprits in their
extraordinary hokus-pokus--but pretended not to see."

(Any misspellings are probably mine--SC)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 21:11:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:11:33 EDT
Subject: Huaca, Alfilerilla, Bodega, Alfalfa, Camote, Orchata,
 Pepino (1825 or 1829)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.171133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HISTORICAL AND DESCRIPTIVE NARRATIVE
OF TWENTY YEARS' RESIDENCE IN SOUTH AMERICA
by W. B. Stevenson
in three volumes
London:  Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown and Green
1829

   NYU has the 1829 edition.  OED used the 1825 edition.
   For "verruga."  One OED citation in a three-volume work from the 1820s.
ONE!
   There's lots to record here.  No one else has gone through this work in
175 years?


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 14:  Our food chiefly consisted of fresh mutton, jirked beef, fish, or
poultry, cut into small pieces and stewed with potatoes or pompions, seasoned
with onions, garlic and cayenne pepper, or capsicum.  Out breakfast, at about
sunrise, was composed of some flour or toasted wheat, coarsely ground, or
crushed, and mixed with water, either hot or cold, as it suited the palate of the
eater.

Pg. 14:  At the lower end of the stone is generally placed a clean lamb skin,
with the wool downwards, which received the flour, called by the indians
_machica_.  Our dinner (Pg. 15--ed.) (made up of the stews or messes which I have
mentioned) was generally served at noon in calabashes, or gourds cut in two,
being three inches deep, and some of them from twelve to twenty inches in
diameter.  Our supper, which we took at eight o'clock, was milk, with _machica_, or
potatoes.
   I cannot refrain from describing a favourite preparation of milk, called
by the natives _milcow_.  Potatoes and a species of pompion, _zapallo_, were
roasted, the insides of both taken out, and kneaded together with a small
quantity of salt, and sometimes with eggs.  This paste was made into little cakes,
each about the size of a dollar, and a large quantity was put into a pot of
milk, and allowed to boil for a quarter of an hour.  I joined the indians in
considering it an excellent dish.

Pg. 17:  The principal out-door diversion among the young men is the
_palican_: this game is called by the Spaniards _chueca_, and is similar to one I have
seen in England called bandy.  Molina says it is like the _calcio_ of the
Florentines and the _orpasto_ of the Greeks.
   (OED has neither "palican" nor "chueca"--ed.)

Pg. 35:  The afternoon was spent in rambling about the neighbouring country
and picking myrtle berries, which are delicious, and called by the people
_mutillas_.  They are about the size of a large pea, of a deep red colour and of a
peculiarly sweet and aromatic flavour.  They are sometimes prepared by
crushing them in water and allowing them to ferment for a few days, which produces a
pleasant beverage called _chicha de mutilla_.  We found abundance of wild
grapes, (which though neither large nor sweet were very palatable) some few plums,
and plenty of apples, pears and peaches.  On our return to the miller's house
we were presented with _mate_, which is a substitute for tea, and is used
more or less in every part of South America, but since the present revolution it
has become less prevalent, partly because the custom of drinking tea _a la
Inglesa_ is more (Pg. 36--ed.) fashionable, and partly because a regular supply
of the herb cannot be procured from Paraguay, where it grows, and from whence
it derives its name.  The _mate_ is prepared by putting into a silver or gold
cup about a teaspoonful of the herb of Paraguay, to which are added a bit of
sugar, sometimes laid on the fire until the outside be a little burnt, a few
drops of lemon juice, a piece of lemon peel and of cinnamon, or a clove.  Boiling
water is poured in till the cup is full,...

Pg. 43:  The indians prepare the maize of winter, whilst in the green state,
by boiling the cobs, from the cores of which are taken the grain, which is
dried in the sun and kept for use.  It is called _chuchoca_, and when mixed with
some of their hashes or stews is very palatable,  Another preparation is made
by cutting the corn from the core of the green cobs, and bruising it between
two stones until it assumes the consistency of paste, to which sugar, butter
and spices, or only salt is added.  It is then divided into small portions,
which are enclosed separately within the inner leaf of the cob or ear and boiled.
These cakes are called _umitas_.  The dry boiled maize, _mote_, and the
toasted, _cancha_, are used by the indians instead of bread.  One kind of maize,
_curugua_, is much softer when roasted, and furnishes a flour lighter, whiter,
and in greater quantity than any other kind.  This meal mixed with water and a
little sugar is esteemed by all ...
   (These terms aren't in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 46:  The yellow flowered, known to us by the name of pumpkin or pompion,
and here called _zapullo_, are excellent food, whether cooked with meat as a
vegetable, or made into custard with sugar and other ingredients.  That the
gourd is a native of South America seems to be supported by several striking
circumstances.  The seeds and shells are found in the graves, or _huacas_; the
plant was universally met with among the different tribes of indians at the time
of their discovery; Almagro states that on his passage down the Maranon some
of the indians has calabashes to drink with; and lastly, those who bring their
produce from the woods of Maynas to Cusco, Quito and other places, always use
gourd shells.
   The pimento, guinea, or cayenne pepper, _capsicum_, is much cultivated and
valued by the natives, who season their food with it.  Although at first very
pungent and disagreeable, strangers gradually habituate themselves to, and
become fond of it.  There are several varieties.
   (OED has 1847 for "huaca"--ed.)

Pg. 47:  The beef is savoury, owing perhaps to the prevalence of aromatic
herbs, more particularly a species of venus' comb, called by the indians _laiqui
lahuen_, by the Spaniards _alfilerilla_; and trefoil, _gualputa_.
   (OED has 1889 for "alfilerilla"--ed.)

Pg. 53:  The whole of the provisions of an Araucanian army consists of the
_machica_, or meal of parched grain.
   (The revised OED mentions "machica" in its--1931 first citation--entry of
"maque choux"--ed.)

Pg. 66:  The ponchos, particularly those of good quality called
_balandranes_, would find a ready market in Peru or Chile.
   (OED mentions "balandran" in 1992--ed.)

Pg. 94:  Barley, maize, _garbansos_, beans, _quinua_, and lentils are also
cultivated for exportation, and yield heavy crops.  Potatoes, radishes and other
esculents, as well as all kinds of culinary vegetables and useful herbs are
raised in the gardens.  The _zapallo_ is very much and justly esteemed, being,
when green, equal to asparagus, and when ripe, similar to a good potatoe.
   (OED has 1759, then 1841 for "garbanzo"--ed.)

Pg. 96:  It is then hung on lines or poles, to dry in the sun, which being
accomplished, it si made into bundles, lashed with thongs of fresh hide, forming
a kind of network, and is ready for market.  In this operation it loses about
one third of its original weight.  The dried meat, _charqui_, finds immediate
sale at Lima, Arica, Guayaquil, Panama and other places.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1845 for "charqui"--ed.)

Pg. 98:  The _huaso_ (or laso thrower) extending the opening formed by
passing the thong through the noose, lays hold of the laso, and begins to whirl it
over his head, taking care that the opening does not close.
   ("Huaso" is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 101:  The melons and _sandias_, water melons, are also very large, and
are extremely nice, particularly the latter, to which the natives are partial.
   (OED has 1648, then 1902 for "sandia"--ed.)

Pg. 103:  The _maqui_ is another tree, bearing a fruit like a _guind_, or
wild cherry, from which a pleasant fermented beverage is made, called _theca_.
The people are fond of the fruit, and parties go into the woods to gather it.

Pg. 121:  There is a custom-house at Talcahuano, and the necessary officers
for collecting the importation and exportation duties; barracks for the
garrison belonging to the small battery, a house for the residence of the commanding
officer, a parish church, also about a hundred houses, with several large
stores, _bodegas_, for corn, wine, and other goods.
   (OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1846 for "bodega"--ed.)

Pg. 121:  The bay abounds with excellent fish; the most esteemed are the
_robalo_;...
   (OED has "rowball" from 1803, but no "robalo" citation in English--ed.)

Pg. 122:  The _corbina_ is generally about the size of the robalo, though
sometimes much larger;...
   (OED has 1787 for "curvina," then 1842 for "corvina"--ed.)

Pg. 125:  Crawfish, _camarones_, are sometimes caught of the enormous weight
of eight or nine pounds each, and are very good.
   (OED has 1880 for "camaron"--ed.)

Pg. 162:  The principal produce of the valley of Lima is sugar cane, lucern,
_alfalfa_, maize, wheat, beans, with tropical and European fruit, as well as
culinary vegetables.
   The sugar cane is almost exclusively of the creole kind: fine sugar is
seldom made from it here, but a coarse sort, called _chancaca_, is extracted, the
method if manufacturing which will hereafter be described.  The principal
part of the cane is employed in making _guarapo_;...
    (OED and M-W have 1845 for "alfalfa"--ed.)

Pg. 169:  _Camotes_, commonly called sweet potatoes, and by the Spaniards
_batatas_, are produced in great abundance, of both the yellow and purple kinds.
   (OED has 1842 for "camote"--ed.)

Pg. 169:  Although the _arracacha_ which is grown in this valley is neither
so large nor so well tasted as that which is produced in a cooler climate, it
is nevertheless an exceedingly good esculent.
   (OED has 1823, then 1832 as its two citations for "arracacha"--ed.)

Pg. 170:  The _tomate_, love apple, is very much cultivated, and is in
frequent use both in the kitchen and for confectionary, and produces a very
agreeable acid.
   Capsicum, cayenne pepper, _aji_, is abundant; I have counted nine
different sorts, the largest, _rocotos_, about the size of a turkey's egg, and the
smallest, which is the most pungent, not thicker than the quill of a pigeon's
feather; the quantity of this spice used in America is enormous; I have
frequently seen a person, particularly among the indians, eat as a relish, twenty or
thirty pods, with a little salt and a piece of bread.  One kind called _pimiento
dulce_ is made into a very delicate salad, by roasting the pods over hot
embers, taking away the outer skin, and the seeds from the inside, and seasoning
with salt, oil, and vinegar.

Pg. 225:  Pork is sold in one part; in another all kinds of salted and dried
meats, principally brought from the interior; these are _charque_, jerked
beef; _sesina_, beef salted and smoked or dried in the sun: hams, bacon, and
frozen kid from the mountains, which last is most delicate eating: there are
likewise many kinds of sausages; salt fish, principally _bacalao_ from Europe;
_tollo_, _congrio_, and corbina.  The fish market is in some seasons abundantly
supplied from the neighbouring coasts with corbina, _jureles_, mackerel, _chita_,
plaice, turbot, peje rey, lisa, anchovies, &c., and most excellent crayfish,
_camarones_, from the rivers, some of which are six or seven inches long.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1890 for "jurel"--ed.)

Pg. 227:  In the vicinity stands a _fresquera_, vender of iced lemonade,
pine-apple water, _orchata_, almond milk, pomegranate water, &c. which offer
another opportunity for gallantry.
   (OED has 1859 for "horchata"--ed.)

Pg. 300:  The walking dress of the females of all descriptions is the _saya y
manto_, which is a petticoat of velvet, satin, or stuff, generally black or
of a cinnamon colour, plaited in very small folds, and rather elastic; it sits
close to the body, and shews its shape to the utmost possible advantage.
   (OED has 1841 for "saya"--ed.)

Pg. 224:  The _Palta_, alligator pear or vegetable marrow, is sometimes
round, and sometimes pear shaped;...
   ("Palta" is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 334:  The _pacay_ is a moderately sized tree; its fruit is contained in a
large green pod--there are several varieties--the pod of one is sometimes
more than a yard long and three inches broad.
   (OED has 1866 for "pacay"--ed.)

Pg. 335:  The _palillo_ is the delicate custard-apple, which is very sweet
and fragrant.
   ("Palillo" is not in  OED--ed.)

Pg. 337:  The _pepino_ is an egg-shaped fruit, and smells like a cucumber.
Here are several varieties, and when ripe they have a sweet but peculiar taste,
between the raw vegetable and fruit: they are considered unwholesome, and
often called _mata serranos_, mountaineer killers; because these people when they
come down to the coast east large quantities of them, on account, perhaps, of
their cheapness: they bring on intermittent fevers, dysentery, &c.  The
_pina_, pine-apple, is not cultivated in Lima;...
   (OED Additions 1993 added "pepino."  The first citation is 1890--ed.)

Pg. 340:  The inhabitants of Lima have many dishes peculiar to the place.
The Spanish _olla podrida_, called _puchero_, is found almost on every table: it
is composed of beef, mutton, fowl, ham, sausage, and smoked meats, mixed with
cassava root, sweet potatoe, cabbage, turnips and almost any vegetables, a
few peas, and a little rice--these are all well boiled together, and form the
standing family dish: bread or vermicelli soup is made from the broth.  _Lahua_
is a thick porridge from the flour of maize boiled with meat, particfularly
fresh pork or turkey, and highly seasoned with the husks of the ripe capsicum.
_Carapulca_ consists of dried potatoes, nuts, or garabansas, parched and (Pg.
341--ed.) bruised, and afterwards boiled to a thick consistency with meat,
like the lahua.  _Pepian_ is made from rice flour, and partakes of the
ingredients of the lahua and the pepian; it is a very favourite dish, and the natives
say, that on being persented to the pope by an American cook, he xclaimed,
_felice indiani, qui manducat pepiani_!  _Chupi_, which is made by cooking
potatoes, cheese and eggs together, and afterwards adding fried fish, is a favourite
dish, not only on days of abstinence, but during the whole year.  Guinea pigs,
_cuis_, make a very delicate dish; they are roasted, and afterwards stewed
with a great quantity of capsicum pods, pounded to the consistency of paste;
sometime potatoes, bruised nuts, and other ingredients are added.  This is the
favourite _picante_, and to my taste is extremely delicate.  Many more dishes,
peculiar to the country, are seen on the tables, all of which are seasoned with
a profusion of lard, and not a small quantity of garlic and capsicum.

(Just a great book.  This is getting long, so I'll end Part One here--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Sep 21 21:41:45 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:41:45 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <3F6B4006.1020908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.174145.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
>Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
>Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."

Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.

I find a few instances of "Mexican fire drill" on the Web, but I've never
heard this myself.

The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
stereotype.

Almost any choice would seem more likely than "Japanese", (1) since the
Japanese have a very long tradition of very well organized fire
preparations, I believe (Japanese cities having been constructed largely of
wood and paper until recently), and of course (2) since the Japanese to
some degree received a quasi-German overly-disciplined/regimented/robotic
stereotype in the US during and following WW II.

Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.

Why Pittsburgh? Well, uh, ....

-- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Sep 21 22:33:42 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:33:42 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309211741.6863f6e1b1a274@rly-nc04.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.173342.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.
>
>I find a few instances of "Mexican fire drill" on the Web, but I've never
>heard this myself.
>
>The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
>stereotype.
>
My only thought here (and no scholarly back up for this) might be that
perhaps the name was changed to "avoid" the perceived stereotype.
Either that or I had some odd friends growing up, but I remember my
family always calling it that and my friends as well.  It wasn't until
much later that I heard "chinese fire drill."

I agree with Doug's points that using "Japanese" doesn't seem likely,
but all I can say is-- well, that's what we called it.  Maybe it was an
idiosyncrasy of my neighborhood.


--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709



"Sometimes, you just have to bow to the absurd."



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

Up the Long Ladder


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 00:38:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:38:37 EDT
Subject: Chuno, Pisco, Serrano, Tamal, Biscochos, Ramada, Algarroba,
 Cholo (1825 or 1829)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.203837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just a great book.  This is a lot of work.  OED and Merriam-Webster owe me
free tamale.  It better be hot.
   I'm probably not going to have the energy for my Trinidad slang material,
but we'll see.  You just can't live without "blue food."


HISTORICAL AND DESCRIPTIVE NARRATIVE
OF TWENTY YEARS' RESIDENCE IN SOUTH AMERICA
by W. B. Stevenson
in three volumes
London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown and Green
1829

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 341:  I have mentioned dried potatoes--they are thus prepared: small
potatoes are boiled, peeled, and then dried in the sun, but the best are those
dried by the severe frosts on the mountains; they will keep for any length of
time, and when used require to be bruised and soaked.  If introduced as a
vegetable substance in long sea (Pg. 342--ed.) voyages, I think the potatoe thus
prepared would be found wholesome and nourishing.  The dried potatoe is sometimes
ground into flour; this is called chuno, and is used to make a kind of
porridge, either with or without meat.
   The maize, whilst green, is prepared in the same manner, by boiling the
cobs, cutting off the grains and drying them; this is called chochoca, and is
cooked like the chuno.
   Great quantities of pumpkins and gourds are eaten, and form the principal
part of the vegetable food of the poor classes; they are large, plentiful and
cheap, and will keep nearly the whole year if placed in a dry room.  Maize and
beans, _frijoles_, are in general use among the lower classes,...
    (OED has 1909 for "chuno"--ed.)

Pg. 343:  The usual breakfast hour at Lima is eight o'clock; they seldom take
more than a cup of thick chocolate with toast, and a glass of cold water
afterwards; or sometimes a little boiled mutton, fried eggs, ham, or sausage.  The
dinner hour is one o'clock.  It is a very plentiful meal, and may indeed be
considered the only one during the day; soup and _puchero_ are generally the
first dishes, the rest come to table indiscriminately, and fish is not
unfrequently the last, excepting sweetmeats, after which a glass of cold water is
always drunk.  Coffee is often brought in immediately after dinner; but in the
higher classes the company rise from table and adjourn to another room, where
coffee and liquors are placed.  Fruit is commonly introduced between the
services,...

Pg. 358:  THe principal produce of the neighbourhood of Pisco, including the
valleys of Chincha and Canete, is vines, from which about one hundred and
fifty thousand gallons of brandy are annually made.  The brandy is kept in earthen
jars, each holding about eighteen gallons.  The vessels are made in the
neighbourhood; their shape is that of an inverted cone, and the inside is coated
with a species of naptha.  The brandy, generally (Pg. 359--ed.) called pisco,
from the name of the place where it is made, is of a good flavour, and is not
coloured, like the French brandy.  One kind, made from the muscadine grape, and
called _aguardiente de Italia_, is very delicate, possessing the flavour of
Frontignac wine, and is much esteemed.
   (OED has 1849 for "pisco"--ed.)

Pg. 366:  In Chile, according to Molina, the _mager_, a species of rye, and
the _tuca_, a species of barley, were both common before the fifteenth
century;...

Pg. 367: I have enumerated five varieties of maize in Peru; one is known by
the name of _chancayano_, which has a large semi-transparent yellow grain;
another is called _morocho_, and has a small yellow grain of a horny appearance;
_amarillo_, or the yellow, has a large yellow opaque grain, and is more
farinaceous than the two former varieties: _blanco_, white; this is the colour of the
grain, which is large, and contains more farina than the former; and
_cancha_, or sweet maize.  The last is only cultivated in the colder climates of the
_sierra_, mountains; it grows about two feet high, the cob is short, and the
grains large and white: when green it is very bitter; but when ripe and roasted
it is particularly sweet, and so tender, that it may be reduced to flour
between the fingers.  In this roasted state it constitutes the principal food of
the _serranos_, mountaineers, of several provinces.
   (OED has 1858 for "serrano."  "Cancha" and "morocho" and "chancayano" are
not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 369:  After the paste is made from the boiled maize it is seasoned with
salt and an abundance of (Pg. 370--ed.) capsicum, and a portion of lard is
added: a quantity of this paste is then laid on a piece of plaintain leaf, and
some meat is put among it, after which it is rolled up in the leaf, and boiled
for several hours.  This kind of pudding is called _tamal_, a _Quichua_ word,
which inclines me to believe, that it is a dish known to the ancient inhabitants
of the country.
   Sweet puddings are made from the green corn, by cutting the grains from
the cob, bruising them, and adding sugar and spices, after which they are boiled
or baked.  _Choclo_, being the Quichua name for the green cobs, these
puddings, if boiled in the leaves that envelope the cob, are called _choclo tandas_,
bread of green maize, and also _umitas_.
   This useful grain is prepared for the table in many diffierent ways, and
excellent cakes and rusks are made from the flour, procured from the grain by
various means.  A thick kind of porridge, called _sango_, is made by boiling
the flour in water, which constitutes the principal food of the slaves on the
farms and plantations.  ANother sort, similar to hasty-pudding, is common in
many places, but particularlyh in Lima; it is called _masamorra_, and the people
of Lima are often ironically denominated _masamorerros_, eaters of masamorra.
The grain is bruised and (Pg. 371--ed.)  mixed with water; it is thus allowed
to ferment until it become acid, when it is boiled, and sweetened with sugar.
 It resembles Scotch sowins.
   A great quantity of maize is laso made into a fermented beverage, called
_chicha_.  The grain is allowed to germinate, and is completely malted; it is
then boiled with water, and the liquor ferments like ale or porter; but no
other ingredients are added to it.
   Chicha is the favourite drink of all the indians, and when well made it is
very intoxicating.
   (OED has 1856 for "tamal."  Merriam-Webster has 1854 for "tamale"--ed.)

Pg. 372:  Two kinds of chicha are usually made from the same grain--the
first, called claro, is the water in which the malt has been infused; this is drawn
off, and afterwards boiled.  In taste it has some resemblance to cider.  The
second kind is made by boiling the grain with the water for several hours, it
is then strained and fermented, and is called neto; the residue or sediment
found in the bottom of the jars is used in fermenting the dough for bread, which
when made of maize is called _arepa_; and that of wheat, in the Quichua
language, _tanda_.

Pg. 372:  Garcilaso de la Vega relates, that the manufacture of intoxicating
liquors, particularly the _vinapu_ and _sora_, was prohibited by the Incas;...

Pg. 373:  Its (Chancay--ed.) market is abundant in fish, flesh-meat,
vegetables, and fruit: of the latter considerable quantities are carried to Lima; it
is also famous for delicate sweet cakes, called _biscochos_.
   (Google also for "bizcocho"--ed.)


VOLUME TWO
Pg. 8:  The maguey is very common;...
Pg. 8:  Before the flower stem makes its appearance, if the heart of the
plant be cut out, and a hollow place made in the centre, it will be filled in ten
or twelve hours with a thick syrup, which may be used instead of sugar; when
this is mixed with water and fermented, it forms the favourite Mexican beverage
_pulque_;...

Pg. 9:  In some gardens the _achote_ is cultivated; this tree is seldom above
ten feet high, the leaves are heart-shaped, and the seeds are enclosed in a
prickly capsule about three inches long; they are covered with an unctuous
matter, of the vermilion colour, and are thrown into hot water, and afterwards
strained, when the liquor is boiled to the consistency of paste, and forms the
annotta dye.  The natives often use it as a spice, or as a colouring matter for
their food.
   (OED has 1796, then 1866 for "achiote" or "achote"--ed.)

Pg. 9:  _Mani_ is also cultivated; the plant is very froniferous, is about
two feet high, and has white flowers;...
   (The revised OED has 1819, then 1846 for "mani"--ed.)

Pg. 20:  When an indian celebrates the feast of some particular saint, he
provides a dinner for all who choose to partake it;...
   The second course of dishes is generally filled with fowls stewed with
some kind of vegetables, but not picante, (Pg. 21--ed.) seasoned with _agi_
(Spelled _aji_ elswhere--ed.), capsicum pods; after this course follows a _pepian_,
consisting of turkey stewed with rice flour, water, onions, garlic, cayenne
pepper, and lard; sometimes peje reyes, smelts, merely laid for five or six
hours in the juice of sour oranges, and green capsicum pods are brought in; and,
lastly, the favourite dish of cuyes, guinea pigs, highly seasoned with cayenne
pepper.  Between each course the chicha circulates freely, and the company
often rise pretty merry; after which they mount their horses and call for the
stirrup cup; the mistress of the feast then goes out with a large pongo,
calabash of chicha, and distributes a small one to each of the guests, who frequently
joke with her about love affairs;...

Pg. 28:  I inquired into the cause of this penury, and was informed by the
cura, that their vicinity to the coast allowed them, if they could purchase a
mule, to fetch small quantities of brown sugar, _chancaca_, and fruit, and to
take them to Chiquian and other towns in the interior, to sell,...

Pg. 44:  After enjoying my nap for about an hour, I awoke, and found an
agreeable repast just ready--a _salona_, mutton slightly salted and smoked, and
equal in flavour to venison, had been roasted, an agreeable sauce of the green
pods of capsicum, _aji verde_, in vinegar had been prepared, and they were
served up with some excellent roasted potatoes;...

Pg. 136:  ...a roasted kid hot, boiled turkey cold, collared pig, ham and
tongue, with butter, cheese and olives, besides which, wine and brandy, _pisco_,
and several _liquers_ were on the table;...

Pg. 181:  Attached to it are four chapels of ease, called _ramadas_;...
   (OED has 1869 for "ramada."  Merriam-Webster has 1853--ed.)

Pg. 183:  The manufacture of sweetmeats consists chiefly of marmalade and
jelly, made from quinces, guavas, and limes.  It is packed in chip boxes, each
holding about two pounds, which sell at half a dollar each;...

Pg. 184:  The _algarroba_, carob tree, grows in the vicinity of Lambayeque in
great abundance, and is of such utility, that a law exists to prevent the
owners from cutting them down;...
   (OED has 1845 for "algarroba," from Charles Darwin--ed.)

Pg. 186:  From the pods of the algarroba the indians make chicha, by merely
infusing them in water, straining it, and allowing it to ferment: at the
expiration of three or four days it is very palatable, and if proper attention were
paid to it, I believe that a very delicate wine would be procured.  Small
cakes called _arepas_ are sometimes made by the indians from the pods reduced to
powder; they are certainly not unpalatable, though very coarse.

Pg. 190:  I drank some of theirs, and ate some sweet cakes, which they called
_alfajor_; they were very good.

Pg. 210:  The market of Guayaquil is but indifferently supplied with flesh
meat, although the horned cattle is well fed on the _savannas_ and
_gamalotales_.  Before the beef comes to market it is deprived of all its fat, and cut into
shreds about an inch thick, called _tasajo_; the fat is melted and sold as
lard for culinary purposes, but this however might be easily remedied if the
inhabitants would come to a resolution not to buy the beef in such a mangled
state.  Very fine ribs of beef, called chalonas, are salted and dreid in the
province of Monte Christe, and brought to this market; they are very fat, and of an
excellent flavour.  The quantity of salt used in curing them being small, the
meat is not too salt to be roasted.

Pg. 211:  The supply of fish is tolerably abundant, but generally speaking it
is not good; the exceptions are the _lisa_, a kind of mullet, the _vieja_,
old wofe; _ciego_, or blind fish, (about nine inches long, with only the spinal
bone) and a species of anchovies or  sardinas.  Oysters are very plentiful,
and the rock oysters though large are good, while those found among the
mangroves are very muddy.
   The bread made here is generally of an inferior quality, although the
flour is good, both that procured from Chile, and that from the provinces of Quito
and Cuenca.  Rice, _garbansas_, a species of pea, brought from Lamayeque,
beans, quinua, ;lentils, and other pulse are cheap;...

Pg. 212:  The _anona_, or _cabesa de negro_, is similar to the chirimoya, but
it is neither so large nor so delicate as that fruit: _badeas_ are very large
and highly flavoured: the _jobos_ are a fruit in size and shape like a large
damson, of a yellow colour, very juicy, with an agreeable acidity; when green
they make excellent tarts: the _mameis_ are an egg-shaped fruit, with a
fibrous rind, covering a pulpy substance, of a delicately sweet taste; each contains
one or two large rough kidney-shaped seeds: _maranones_, a fruit somewhat
like a lemon; they have a smooth yellow skin, striped with red; the pulp is very
acid but agreeable, and is sucked on account of its being very fibrous; (Pg.
213--ed.)  in size and shape the seed is like the cashew nut, but it is united
to the fruit where this joins the branch; the seed is more delicate than an
almond, and it is used by the confectioner as well as the fruit: _nisperos_, an
egg-shaped fruit about four inches long; the rind is brown and rough, the pulp
in some is white, in others reddish, very sweet, and somewhat resembling the
taste of a delicious pear; each contains three long hard seeds--this fruit is
in season during the whole year: _zapotes_, a round fruit about five or six
inches in diameter, having a soft, downy, yellowish rind; the pulp in some is a
very deep yellow, in others it is white, in others almost black, but the
yellow kind is considered the best; they are very sweet, but fibrous; in the centre
is a large kernel, to which all the fibres appear strongly attached.
Oranges, limes, lemons, paltas, lucumas, palillos, tamarinds, guavas, coconuts, and
other intertropical fruits are also in very great abundance.

Pg. 258:  On our arrival at this village we were met by about forty indian
boys, _cholos_, fantastically dressed; and the little fellows danced along the
sides of the street as we passed to the house prepared for our reception.
   (OED has 1851 for "cholo," from Herman Melville--ed.)

Pg. 274:  Among the delicacies found in Ambato is excellent bread, equal to
any in the world, and several kinds of cakes, particularly one called
_allullas_, of which many are made and sent to Quito, Guayaquil, and other places.

Pg. 315:  The truth is, that the distilling of rum is a royal monopoly in
Quito; whereas that of brandy is not so in Peru; thus, for the purpose of
increasing the consumption of rum, which augments the royalo revnue, brandy is one of
the _pisco_ or _aguardiente_, contraband articles.

Pg. 315:  Quito is famous for the delicate ices and iced beverages which are
made by the inhabitants; a service of ices, when a dinner or supper is given
to a large party, is considered the greatest ornament of the table.  These ices
are generally prepared by the nuns, who, for the (Pg. 316--ed.) purpose, have
pewter moulds, amde to imitate several kinds of fruit; these are in two
pieces, which are first united with wax and tied together: at a small aperture at
one end the liquor is poured in, a fluid prepared from the juice of the fruit
which the mould is made to imitate; when full, the hole is closed with wax, and
the mould is put into a heap of broken ice mixed with salt, and allowed to
remain till the liquor is congealed; the two parts of the mould are then
separated, and the solid contents placed on a dish: thus a service of ices is made to
consist of perfect imitations of pine-apples, oranges, melons, figs, and
other fruits.  When milk or cream is iced it is poured into a mould formed like a
cheese.  These imitations, placed on dishes, and ornamented with leaves &c.
are with difficulty distinguished from fruit, and when fruit is mixed with them,
I have frequently seen strangers completely deceived.
   (The whole next page is also worth reading--ed.)

Pg. 318:  This may partly be accounted for from the number of dishes made
with potatoes, pumpkins, gourds, maize, wheat, and many other kinds of vegetables
and pulse mixed with cheese.  As the custom of eating toasted cheese is
prevalent, a whole one, weighing from three to four pounds, is generally placed on
the tables of wealthy citizens both at breakfast and supper;...

Pg. 353:  ...this is of cotton, and is generally no more than a _toldo_,
mosquito curtain, in the shape of a small tent, under which they sleep, besides
one or two sheets of the same material.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1852 for "toldo"--ed.)

Pg. 366:  The masato is made yb boiling a quantity of ripe plantains till
they are quite soft; these are reduced to a pulp by beating them in a trough;
this pulp is then put into a basket lined with vijao leaves, and allowed to
ferment two, three, or more days; when it is wanted a spoonful or more is taken out
and put into a tutuma bored full of holes like a cullender, a quantity of
water is added to it, and the whole is rubbed through the holes of one tutuma
into another without holes, which serves as a bowl to drink out of; or small
tutumas are filled from it, and handed round.  I was highly pleased with the
masato, and scarcely took any thing else for my breakfast; the taste is a sub-acid,
but remarkably agreeable.

Pg. 371:  Anoher fermented beverage, as well as spirit, is prepared from the
yuca; the root is boiled, reduced to a pulpy substance, and placed in baskets
to ferment, in the same manner as the plantains are for the masato; when mixed
with water and strained, it is called _kiebla_, and the spirit  distilled
from it _puichin_.
   (OED has neither "kiebla" nor "piuchin"--ed.)

Pg. 379:  IN the Emeraldas river and in many of the tributary streams there
is a variety of delicate fish, as well as ion the sea on the neighbouring
coast.  The most delicate in the rivers are the lisa, _dama_, _sabalo_, and
_sabalete_; in the sea the lisa, corbina, chita, mero, and tollo; besides these there
is a small fish resembling a shrimp, not half an inch long, which makes its
annual appearance in February, or in the beginning of March; it is called
_chautisa_, and is really a great delicacy when prepared by the natives.
     (OED has 1889 for "sabalo."  OED does not have "chautisa"--ed.)

Pg. 385:  Another kind of cocoa is found here, called _moracumba_;...


VOLUME THREE
(No citations.  "Serrano" and "aji" are mentioned in the Arica passage on
page 328--ed.)


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Mon Sep 22 02:57:41 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:57:41 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.225741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:

>  I wonder how being from
> >Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>
> Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.
>
>
> The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
> stereotype.
>
> Almost any choice would seem more likely than "Japanese", (1) since the
> Japanese have a very long tradition of very well organized fire
> preparations, I believe (Japanese cities having been constructed largely of
> wood and paper until recently), and of course (2) since the Japanese to
> some degree received a quasi-German overly-disciplined/regimented/robotic
> stereotype in the US during and following WW II.
>
> Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
> between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.

Stereotypes are rarely logical.  Language captures stereotypes in folk
discourse such as the classic Chinese fire drill (e. g., utter disorganization)
under discussion and the derivative adolescent car game.  We demean those who
are a threat to us by implying they are illogical and undisciplined (i. e., not
as good as us).  The dating then becomes important.  Is there a convergence of
the date for "Japanese" fire drill and the perceived economic threat of of
Japan?  Not knowing the history of the steel industry in Pittsburgh, I can't
speak with any certainty, but it could be this would be the time when the
Pittsburgh steel industry (which has, of course, vanished)  was threatened by
the Japanese steel industry.  Adolescents reflect (reluctantly and
unconsciously) the attitudes of their parents and the  general context in which
they operate.  Could this be an explanation for the shift from Chinese to
Japanese?

Jim Stalker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 03:10:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:10:37 -0400
Subject: Taco Salad (1965)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.231037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Or all right, here's another "taco salad" from the 1960s.  But Los Angeles is gonna beat this.   The first NEW YORK TIMES hit is 1982, from Connecticut.
   OT:  The GOURMET restaurant issue just arrived in the mail.  The Sterns check out the pizza in New Haven, CT.  Again!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Add a Touch Of Old Mexico
              The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 11, 1965.                   p. C19 (1 page):
   LOOKING for a hearty salad to serve with steaming bowls of soup for a church, club or school luncheon for 40 or 50 people?
   Tr Taco Salad.  It's different and delicious.  Made with shredded lettuce, grated cheese, ground beef, tomatoes, corn chips and Taco sauce, the main dish sald satisfies hearty appetitites.  (...)
      _TACO SALAD_
4 heads coarsely shredded lettuce
4 cups grated cheddar cheese
1 cup onion, finely chopped
8 medium fresh tomatoes, cut in chunks, or 2 cans (1 lb., 12 oz.) whole tomatoes, drained
3 pounds of ground beef
1/3 cup Taco Sauce
24 ounces tortilla corn chips
Black olives
   Wash, drain and chill lettuce.  Shred lettuce heads with knife or use a machine medium vegetable shredder disc.  Keep lettuce cold.  Meanwhile, saute onions and ground beef.  Break up the meat with a fork while cooking,  Put shredded lettuce, grated cheese and tomatoes in large salad bowl; toss lightly.  When ready to serve, add hot meat and corn chips.  Toss ingredients together lightly.  Garnish with black olives.  Makes 3 gallons or 40 one-cup servings.
   NOTE:  The meat mixture goes into the main dish salad ingredients while hot.  If serving a large group of people, have the cold and hot ingredients prepared, toss together in small batches.


2.
      Display Ad 24 -- No Title
              The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: May 27, 1966.                   p. A12 (1 page):
(False hit--ed.)

3.
      Bourbon Pate-a Decorative Hors d'Oeuvre to Impress Your Guests
       Anne's Reader Exchange.       The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 8, 1968.                   p. D17 (1 page):
(False hit--ed.)

4.
      Hot Town, Summer in the City: The Salad Cool-Off
       By Betsy Balsley.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 4, 1977.                   p. E14 (1 page):
   TACO SALAD.

5.
      Balancing Diets From Infancy Onward
       By Jeanne Lesem.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 25, 1979.                   p. E22 (1 page)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Sep 22 03:24:04 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:24:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "knucklehead" (1938)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.232404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Might "knucklehead(ed)" be derived from the literal term "knuckle head," part of a railway car coupling?  The earliest use I've seen is from an 1897 patent case:

>>As early as the 29th of April, 1873, a patent was issued to E. H. Janney, No. 138,405, for a car coupler which established a type.   It had a forked draw-head, one arm of which operated as a buffer, and to the other arm was pivoted a knuckle or coupling-head consisting of two arms, one adapted to hook with a similar arm upon a similar coupling-head on a fellow coupler, and the other when the coupling-head was open, swinging out in a position where it would be struck by the arm of the opposing coupler and driven back into a hollow draw-head, there to be latched by a spring latch firmly against the side of the draw-head, and thus holding the outer arm or hook of the coupling-head in engagement with the corresponding hook of the coupling-head of the opposing coupler.   The form may be gathered from the following figures taken from the drawings of the patent.

[Drawing in original] 

  Various improvements were made by Janney on his coupler in the matter of the locking device and the form of the draw-head and coupler, one in 1874, another in 1878, another in 1879, and another in 1882.   On the following page are Figs. 1 and 2 of the drawings of the Janney patent of 1879.   The locking device is a spring latch embracing the tail or inner arm of the knuckle head.<<

St. Louis Car-Coupler Co. v. National Malleable Castings Co., 81 F. 706, 713 (N.D. Ohio 1897).  The 1873 patent does not use the term "knuckle head"; I was unable to check the later patents, as the database is not searchable without a patent number.

 

There is a 1942 quote in Life (quoted in HDAS) suggesting that "knuckle-head" means thick-skulled.  That would fit in neatly with the literal knuckle-head.


John Baker 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 09:27:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:27:20 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.052720.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"DACHSHUND" AND "SAUSAGE"

    For the benefit of anyone doing a "hot dog" book--and who isn't?--I just
thought that I'd check the words "dachshund/dachshunds" and "sausage/sausages"
on the Ancestry.com newspapers.  A recent New York Times Magazine article
said that "hot dog" came from "dachshund."  (This is post-Jason Blair accuracy,
too.)
   Just how many hits are there in the 19th century?  Or even before TAD's
death in 1929?
   Let's check:

Ames Daily Tribune (Ames, Iowa), 3 hits, 1954 first hit
Appleton Post Crescent (Appleton, Wisconsin), 9 hits, 1958
Atchison Daily Globe (Atchison, Kansas) 3 hits, 1950
Atlanta Constitution (Atlanta, Georgia), 1 hit, 1915
Bennington Evening Banner (Bennington, Vermont), 1 hit, 1956
Berkshire County Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 1 hit, 1950
Berkshire Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 1 hit, 1946
Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 13 hits, 1946
Bradford Era (Bradford, Pennsylvania) 1 hit, 1951
Bridgeport Post (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 4 hits, 1955
Bridgeport Sunday Post (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 4 hits, 1956
Bridgeport Telegram (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 17 hits, 1951
Caribou County Sun (Soda Springs, Idaho), 1 hit, 1966
Charleston Daily Mail (Charleston, West Virginia), 27 hits, 1938
Chilicothe Constitution Tribune (Chilicothe, Missouri), 2 hits, 1964
Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 79 hits, 1933
Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 25 hits, 1933
Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio), 26 hits, 1967
Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio) 5 hits, 1952
Decatur Review (Decatur, Illinois), 1 hit, 1927
Deming Headlight (Deming, Neww Mexico), 8 hits, 1973
Dixon Evening Telegraph (Dixon, Illinois), 7 hits, 1947
East Liverpool Review (East Liverpool, Ohio), 1 hit, 1951
Edwardsville Intelligencer (Edwardsville, Illinois), 165 hits, 1951
Evening Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 1 hit, 1909
Fort Wayne News (Fort Wayne, Indiana), 3 hits, 1900, 1909, 1915
Fort Wayne News (Fort Wayne, Indiana), 2 hits, 1900, 1909
Frederick Post (Frederick, Maryland) 3 hits, 1983
Gettysburg Times (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), 24 hits, 1933
Harlan News Advertiser (Harlan, Iowa), 1 hit, 1966
Helena Independent (Helena, Montana), 3 hits, 1933
Herald Press (St. Joseph, Michigan), 2 hits, 1953
Independent Record (Helena, Montana), 4 hits, 1944
Indiana Evening Gazette (Indiana, Pennsylvania), 8 hits, 1930
Iowa City Press Citizen (Iowa City, Iowa), 9 hits, 1950
Jefferson Bee (Jefferson, Iowa), 4 hits, 1958
Kossuth County Advance (Algona, Iowa), 1 hit, 1955
Lemars Daily Sentinel (Lemars, Iowa), 1 hit, 1973
Lemars Globe Post (Lemars, Iowa), 2 hits, 1952
Mansfield News Journal (Mansfield, Ohio), 2 hits, 1937
Marion Daily Star (Marion, Ohio), 1 hit, 1893
Marion Daily Star (Marion, Ohio), 8 hits, 1913
Marion Star (Marion, Ohio), 425 hits, 1944
Monroe County News (Albia, Iowa), 1 hit, 1968
Morning News Review (Florence, South Carolina), 1 hit, 1925
Morning World Herald (Omaha, Nebraska), 1 hit, 1893
Mountain Democrat (Placerville, California), 15 hits, 1962
Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada) 4 hits, 1936
New Oxford Item (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), 1 hit, 1908
Newport Daily News (Newport, Rhode Island), 4 hits, 1950
News (Frederick, Maryland), 23 hits, 1954
Oshkosh Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), 2 hits, 1955
Oxnard Press Courier (Oxnard, California), 4 hits, 1949
Playground Daily News (Fort Walton Beach, Florida), 3 hits, 1966
Post Crescent (Appleton, WIsconsin), 45 hits, 1965
Reno Evening Gazette (Reno, Nevada), 8 hits, 1944
Reporter (Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin), 2 hits, 1977
Sedalia Democrat (Sedalia, Missouri), 1 hit, 1949
Sheboygan Press (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), 3 hits, 1923
Times Recorder (Zanesville, Ohioh), 17 hits, 1941
Traverse City Record Eagle (Traverse City, Michigan), 7 hits, 1950
Washington Post (Washington, D.C.), 1 hit, 1907
Washington Post (Washington, D.C.), 2 hits, 1913
Waterloo Daily Courier (Waterloo, Iowa), 8 hits, 1945
Waukesha Daily Freeman (Waukesha, Wisconsin), 7 hits, 1947
Wichita Daily Times (Whichita Falls, Texas), 1 hit, 1965
Zanesville Signal (Zanesville, Ohio), 5 hits, 1939


   19 February 1893, MORNING WORLD HERALD (Omaha, Nebraska), pg. 16, col. 1:
_Mr. Belmont's Kennels--"The More I See_
  _of Men, the Better I_
   _Like Dogs."_
(...) ,,,memory of vanish glory and (illegible)-eight in sausage.
("Dachshund" is on another line of the story--ed.)

   12 May 1893, MARION DAILY STAR (Marion, Ohio_, pg. 2?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   29 June 1900, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 7:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   2 December 1909, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 12:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   8 December 1915, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 13:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   7 July 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4, col. 6:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in the same article, but different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   19 July 1913, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   16 March 1915, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8, col. 5:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in the same article, but different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   9 July 1908, NEW OXFORD ITEM (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 7?, col. 2:
   Who cares now for a silky King Charles or a stately wolf-hound?  The craze
is all for your slouching bull-pup or wiry fox-terrier or alien Dachshund,
shaped like a sausage and sold by the yard.--Saturday Review.

   23 December 1909, EVENING TELEGFRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 5?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   5 November 1913, MARION DAILY STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 5, col. 2:
("Dachshund" and "sausage"  are in the same article, but on different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   2 January 1915, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 10:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   14 November 1923, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin), pg. 15:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   2 November 1925, MORNING NEWS REVIEW (Florence, South Carolina), pg. 16?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   29 September 1927, DECATUR REVIEW (Decatur, Illionois), pg. 7:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in diffferent stories--ed.)


   Ancestry.com has now digitized about 13 million pages.  Most of it is
probably pre-copyright, or before 1930.
   That's every hit for "dachshund" and "sausage."  You tell the NEW YORK
TIMES.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ANTON/ANTOINE FEUCHTWANGER

ANTON FEUCHTWANGER--102 Google hits
ANTON LUDWIG FEUCHTWANGER--2 Google hits
ANTOINE FEUCHTWANGER--29 Google hits

   Anton or Antoine Feuchtwanger is the guy who invented the hot dog bun at
the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, or maybe it was the 1893 Chicago World's Fair.
 C'MON, IT'S THE WORLD WIDE WEB!  YOU DON'T NEED ACCURACY!
    There was just one Ancestry hit.


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   27 February 1967, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 10, col. 1:
   The birth of the American "hot dog" is equally hazy.  One legend points to
Antoine Ludwig Feuchtwanger, a sausage vender who came to America from
Bavaria.  Aontoine introduced his "red dogs" to the citizens of St. Louis in 1883
and provided each customer with a white glove to hold the hot sausage.  He took
his idea to the Chicago World's Fair where profits nose-dived because
customers failed to return the white gloves.  he and his wife hit upon the idea of
wrapping the hot sausage in a bun.  This was instantly successful.
   ANOTHER LEGEND says the original name was a hot "dachshund" sausage and
this was changed to "hot dog" by a cartoonist who renamed it to solve his
spelling problem.


 (MISSOURI HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS PROJECT)
   6 July 1967, COLUMBIA MISSOURIAN, pg. 5:
_History Dim on Hot Dog_
_The Lighter Side_ by Dixk West
(...)
--The hot dog was invented in 1883 by Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger, a St. Louis,
Mo., sausagemonger who didn't call it anything.
(...)
--The term "hot dog" was first used by Tad Dorgan, a San Francisco cartoonist
who thought the sausage looked like a dachshund.
--The term "hot dog: sprang from "humorous implications" that the sausage was
stuffed with dog meat.
(...)
   Additional information has unfortunately come to light.
   Mrs. Jeff E. Meyer of Anaheim, Calif., sent me a clipping from the St.
Louis Post Dispatch confirming St. Louis as the birthplace of the hot dog.
   The Post Dispatch, however, does not recognize Feuchtwanger as the
inventor.  It gives the credit to a butcher named John Hoepple.
(...)
  This, I promise, ends my career as a hot dog historian.


(Career?  How much money can you make?--ed.)


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Sep 22 13:52:50 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:52:50 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA9C@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.095250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just for the record, the 1962 cite in HDAS is for the sense
"something difficult to deal with."  The 1964 date M-W reports
(backed by another cite in HDAS) is for the sense "a stupid
person."


Is the word a calque?  The evidence I've seen so far doesn't
seem compelling.  The earliest recorded uses of the word in
English don't particularly suggest Italian influence, and the
combination of various names for the human genitalia with "-head"
to suggest stupidity seems well established in English (note the
cross-references to analogous terms in HDAS).  In fact, the use of
such words as terms of abuse denoting  defects of intelligence or
character seems a fairly common pattern across languages.


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Sep 22 14:19:32 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:19:32 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309212257.c3f6e650eea@rly-na01.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.091932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Is there a convergence of
>the date for "Japanese" fire drill and the perceived economic threat of of
>Japan?  Not knowing the history of the steel industry in Pittsburgh, I can't
>speak with any certainty, but it could be this would be the time when the
>Pittsburgh steel industry (which has, of course, vanished)  was threatened by
>the Japanese steel industry.  Adolescents reflect (reluctantly and
>unconsciously) the attitudes of their parents and the  general context in which
>they operate.  Could this be an explanation for the shift from Chinese to
>Japanese?
>

This is possible.  Being from Pittsburgh, though not from a steel
working family, I know that in the early 1980's was when the steel
industry really crashed, but the seeds for that could have been planted
in the 1970's when I remember hearing this phrase.  In addition, I do
know that there is a perception among people in the area where I grew up
that the japanese are/were "taking over" jobs etc. in the area, putting
"honest" Pittsburghers out of work.

I hadn't thought of that, but it sounds logical.

If I get a chance, I'll check with others who grew up around that time
in Pittsburgh to see if they heard the phrase.

Patti

>
>Jim Stalker
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 15:39:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:39:41 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.113941.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  FYI: This is on the Ancestry.com message board:


Submitter:  Wohlers, Lynne
Subject:    <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/localities.ceeurope.germany.bavaria.general/297">Anton Feuchtwanger</A>
Message:    Anton Ludwig FEUCHTWANGER was a sausage peddler from Bavaria. He
invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in the Summer of 1886 in St. Louis, Missouri,
USA. He was also supposed to have invented this at the St. Louis World's
Fair/Louisiana Purchase Exposition in 1904. Anton was married and had a brother who
was a Baker. The house where he invented the Hog Dog on a Bun, the Jean
Baptiste Roy House, was at 2nd and Plum Streets in St. Louis. The St. Louis Arch, or
Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, now stands at this place. In about 1946
or 1947, there was a Historical Marker or Plaque dedicated to Anton by the
St. Louis Jr. Chamber of Commerce, the Young Men's Division. When did Anton
immigrate to the USA? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Submitter:  Lynne Wohlers
Subject:    <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/localities.northam.usa.states.missouri.counties.stlouis/178">FEUCHTWANGER, ANTON LUDWIG</A>
Message:    ANTON LUDWIG FEUCHTWANGER was a sausage peddler from Bavaria. In
the Summer of 1883 while working for Sausage makers John BOEPPLE and William
TAMME at the Jean Baptiste Roy House at 2nd and Plum Street in Downtown St.
Louis, Anton invented the Hot Dog on a Bun. Anton had a wife, and a brother who
was a Baker. The legend says that Anton's wife suggested he put hot sausages
wrapped in a bun.

The Jean Baptiste Roy House, which was a Historical Landmark with a Plaque on
it dedicated to Anton as being the inventor of the Hot Dog on a Bun, was torn
down in 1947 to make room for the St. Louis Arch (Jefferson National
Expansion Memorial).

The Historical Marker, or Plaque, was dedicated to Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger
by the Young Men's Division of the Jr. Chamber of Commerce, but I do not know
what year. When the dedication took place, was Anton or his descendants still
around? I have been told that the Historical Marker is in the Basement of City
Hall in St. Louis.

Anton was also to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in 1904 at the St. Louis
World's Fair, Louisiana Purchase Exposition. There is also a possibility that
Anton came from Frankfurt, Germany, and not Bavaria. Any help is appreciated.

Lynne Wohlers


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 16:39:21 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:39:21 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.123921.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    More from the Ancestry.com message boards.  This is a reply to the
FEUCHTWANGER query.
    Upon further examination, it appears that ADS-member and UNC professor
Connie Eble invented the "hot dog."


      Info. on John Boepple
    Author: <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=author&r=an&a=&ee=yS46rWaTKy1YuudSGCE3Wa2lNXuTbyrjr8vtsT_1CtM&onok=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.ancestry.com%2Fmbexec%3Fhtx%3Dmessage%26r%3Dan%26p%3Dlocalities.northam.usa.states.missouri.counties.stlouis%26m%3D178.2157">Randy Bready</A>        Date: 17 Apr 2001 12:00 PM GMT
    Surnames: BOEPPLE
    Classification: Query

In response to your posting under St.Louis, you mentioned
a sausage maker named John Boepple. I believe that this man
was my wife's great grandfather, who came from Frankfort,
Germany sometime in the 1800's. He was married to a Christine Eble. I wonder
if could offer any guidance on how
to learn more about John Boepple?

Thanks,
Randy Bready


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Sep 22 17:58:07 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:07 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309161308350.30674-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.135807.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Annals of Improbable Research have a long four-part series on
Murphy and his law:

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/
murphy0.html

Grant


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Sep 22 18:14:54 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:14:54 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <3F6F04F4.9060702@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.141454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 >>I wonder how being from
> >Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>~~~~~~~
 > Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
> between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.
~~~~~~~~~~~
 If this had been a decade earlier it could have been attributed to a
holdover from the parental generation that had grown up with the varieties
of stereotypes that were prevalent before & during WWII.  Before the war &
the proliferation of propagandistic imagery of evil, hostility, treachery
&c., of all things associated with Japan, there were other disparaging
ones.  "Made in Japan" meant  cheap knock-off, inferior materials, workers
with no self-respect, &c.  The ingenuity, beauty, usefulness counted for
nothing.  "Made in China"  on the other hand, meant artistic, beautifully
made, &c., by people of respectable, even admirable traditions.  Some of
this, no doubt, reflected  our attitudes  toward the Sino-Japanese war that
had been going on ten years before Pearl Harbor,  but I think antedated
even that.
A. Murie


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 22 19:24:48 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <200309221758.h8MHw8L27009@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.152448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Grant Barrett wrote:

> The Annals of Improbable Research have a long four-part series on
> Murphy and his law:
>
> http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/
> murphy0.html

I had planned to post a message about this.  This is an interesting series
that has no major new information to offer, has no documented early
printed citations, but is based on talking with surviving witnesses to the
standard account of the origin of Murphy's Law and succeeds in bringing
out some of the contradictory aspects of the anecdotal record.  This
series coincidentally duplicates my conversation with George Nichols, with
whom I had just talked when I discovered the URL above.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Sep 22 20:59:09 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:59:09 -0700
Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebb8e4d6ff9a2@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.135909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just received a German and English double version. Because it was an
attachment, I have posted it at

http://students.washington.edu/bjb5/german.jpg

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Wednesday, 17 September 2003 10:46 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
>
>
> See now the snopes posting on this at
> http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp
>
> I just got yet another version, in which the finding is
> attributed to "rscheearch [sic; that double -ch- strikes
> again] at Txes [sic] M&A Uinervtisy".
>
> larry
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 00:12:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:12:15 -0400
Subject: Feuchtwanger, Boepple, Tamme information
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.201215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I e-mailed her to see if she had any genealogical information and got this response.  I'll post it in full so she can receive any credit.
   Now, I could look up "Feuchtwanger" and "hot dogs" easily in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, if I just had that darned Proquest CHICAGO TRIBUNE...

Barry Popik

  Subj:
Re: Feuchtwanger, Tamme, Boepple
  Date:
9/22/2003 6:27:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:
Lynne Wohlers <lwohgerman at earthlink.net>
  To:
Bapopik at aol.com

Dear Barry Popik,

 It's been a while since I researched Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger.  I am no longer researching Anton, but will look for whatever information I have.

 Anton was a sausage peddler from Bavaria, or Frankfurt, Germany.  Anton was supposed to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in the summer of 1883 in St. Louis, Missouri.  Anton was also supposed to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun at the St. Louis Worlds Fair in 1904.  I am not sure what date is correct.  Anton worked for John Boepple and William Tamme, who were sausage makers, at 2nd and Plum Streets at the Jean Baptiste Roy House, in St. Louis, Missouri.  The house is gone, and was replaced with the St. Louis Arch, or Jefferson National Expansion Memorial.  While I was doing my research, I found that there was a plaque dedicated to Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger in 1947, by the Young Men's Division of the St. Louis Jr. Chamber of Commerce.  I believe I contacted City Hall, and there was a plaqe dedicated to Anton in the basement.  The plans were to put a memorial under the St. Louis Arch, honoring people who received plaques.

 There are many articles on Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger in a St. Louis newspaper in 1947.  I forget the name of the newspaper right now.  It was when they were tearing down the Jean Baptiste Roy House.  There was a protest to keep the house as a Historical Monument, as the place where the Hot Dog on a Bun was invented.  I will see if I can find the newspaper articles.
 I never found a date of death for Anton.  It is possible that he was in St. Louis for some time, and eventually moved.  As for John Boepple and William Tamme, I think there are descendants of William Tamme still living in St. Louis today.  I do not know about John Boepple.  The last time I researched Anton was about 1994.

 Sincerely
 Lynne Wohlers
 Long Beach, California

 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:

   I'm researching the "hot dog," and it's very important.  What do you have on Feuchtwanger, Boepple, and Tamme?  Do you have historic articles (before 1950)?  Do you have their dates of death so I can check obituaries?

  Barry Popik (Ancestry.com member)
  New York, NY


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 00:34:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:34:43 -0400
Subject: House of the Hot Dog (St. Louis, 1947)
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.203443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI, from ProQuest's CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR.


      Mirror of World Opinion The House of the Hot Dog
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Jan 20, 1947.                   p. 20 (1 page)

   If everyone who has rolled his tongue and smacked his lips over a hot dog sandwich could be solicited for one-mill contributions, there is no question as to what would happen to the Jean Baptiste Roy house at 615 North Second Street.  Funds many times over the sum required would roll in from the Fifth Ward, from Sauk Center, from Montmarte, Nome, Beacon Hill, Indonesia--from everywhere.  The old house's every last stick and stone would be tenderly moved to the riverfront park, there to be set up as a shrine to which its benefactors might come as pilgrims through the centuries.
   Skip fur trader Roy.  He merely built the house on land bought from Pierre Chouteau, Jr.  The chaps who counted were subsequent owners, John Boepple and William Tamme, butchers.  They dreamed up the hot dog there, so the antiquarians aver, and all mankind owes them an unpayable debt.  If the National Park Service and the City Hall know a historic building when they see one, they will collaborate to move the old house whole or at least transfer it piece by piece.  As a place of interest on the riverfront, the butcher shop of Boepple & Tamme would be miles ahead of monumental buildings costing thousands of times more.--_St. Louis Post-Dispatch_.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep 23 03:37:20 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:37:20 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F6EC672.9235.E853051@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.233720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Just for the record, the 1962 cite in HDAS is for the sense
>"something difficult to deal with."  The 1964 date M-W reports
>(backed by another cite in HDAS) is for the sense "a stupid
>person."

I think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
"motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
annoying/accursed/difficult".

>Is the word a calque?  The evidence I've seen so far doesn't
>seem compelling.  The earliest recorded uses of the word in
>English don't particularly suggest Italian influence, and the
>combination of various names for the human genitalia with "-head"
>to suggest stupidity seems well established in English (note the
>cross-references to analogous terms in HDAS).  In fact, the use of
>such words as terms of abuse denoting  defects of intelligence or
>character seems a fairly common pattern across languages.

I agree.

Incidentally:

I see plenty of instances of the conventional "testa di cazzo" (= "stupid
person", essentially = "dickhead") on the Web, but no modern "testa di
cazzi"/"testa de cazi"/etc. I suppose "cazi" = modern "cazzi" is the plural
of "caz[z]o"? Does the pluralization change the interpretation?

[This "cazzo" is the "gotts" in the popular "stu gotts".]

[The etymology of "cazzo" is somewhat mysterious, apparently.]

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 08:09:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:09:02 EDT
Subject: Estanciero, Cana, Porteno, Chipa (1838-1839)
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.040902.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LETTERS ON PARAGUAY:
COMPRISING AN ACCOUNT OF A FOUR YEARS' RESIDENCE IN THAT REPUBLIC
by J. P. and W. P. Robertson
in three volumes
second edition
London: J. Murray
1839
New York: AMS Press, Ltd.
1970

   The letters were written in 1838.  OED doesn't have a single citation from
its three volumes.  No one has read this work for over 160 years?
   A few antedates/antedatings before I go back to work at Burger King.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 58:  He mixes more freely in general society, takes a share in the
affairs and offices of state, educates his chilldren more liberally; and though the
estanciero himself may still adhere to many of his primitive and favourite
habits, yet many a rich estanciero's wife and daughters are to be seen driving
about in handsome and modern-built carriages of their own.
   (OED has 1845 for "estanciero"--ed.)

Pg. 59:  The chacarero is generally brave, frank, and hospitable.  His spouse
and daughters are fond of gaudy finery; and he himself, on the "dia de
fiesta," or holiday, decks out his horse and person (they being more "one flesh"
than he and his wife) in rich trappings and gay apparel.
   (OED has 1844 for "fiesta."    OED doesn't have
"chacara"--farming-ground--or "chacarero" both mentioned here--ed.)

Pg. 165:  Many smoked their pipes or cigars; some had already partaken freely
of the cana (a spirit made from the sugar-cane) and all were in evidently
high good humour, both with themselves and others.
   (OED has 1881 for "cana"--ed.)

Pg. 173:  But we were encountered by one of those hurricanes called
pamperos,--the south-west gales,--which blow over the plains or pampas, that intervene
between the Andes and the River Plate.
   ("Pamperos" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ...the Portenos (so are the inhabitants of Buenos Ayres called)
sent out upon it artillery to attack a Spanish sloop-of-war, lying at about that
distance from the town.
   (OED has 1884 for "Porteno"--ed.)

Pg. 188:  The servants stood with their arms crossed till the olla podrida
had nearly disappeared.  The remove was a dish of the celebrated "carne con
cuero," or beef roasted in the skin of the animal; and let no Englishman boast of
_his_ roast beef after he has tasted this.  A proper dish of "_carne con
cuero_" (and that of the curate of Luxan was excellent) consists of the ribs cut,
hide and all, (Pg. 189--ed.) from the side of a fat yearling.  It may weigh,
when served, about twenty pounds, and being roasted in the hide, of course the
juice of the meat is all preserved.  The animal, on part of which we were now
feasting, had been slaughtered that very morning, and yet the flesh was tender
and full flavoured.  Carne con cuero is altogether one of the most savoury
dishes of which you can well partake.  It was attacked and demolished as the olla
podrida had been; and the servants then removed and replaced dish after dish,
as before.  Roast fowl, boiled fowl, hashes, and stews followed in rapid
succession.  Then came the _fish_ (for the Spaniards always take their fish last),
and abundance of candied sweetmeats, milk, and honey.

Pg. 250:  The river abounds with fish from its mouth to its source.  The
pexerey (king's fish), the dorado, mullet, pacu (a sort of turbot), and many
others, are found in it;...
   (OED has 1825 for "pacu."  OED does not have "pexerey"--ed.)

Pg. 279:  ...a one-eyed black slave called Bopi (in Guarani, "the man of one
eye") cooked the doctor's asado, made his olla, or seasoned with garlic his
more dainty guisado, or stew.
   (OED does not have "asado" or "guisado"--ed.)

Pg. 303:  The assessor, I may say, the ruler of the Government, Don Gregorio
de la Cerda, had become my right-hand man; nor was I unwilling to march under
the direction of one who not only did as he pleased in affairs of state, but
who was the padrino (or godfather) of the children of every family of
consideration in the place.
   (The revised OED has "madrina" from 1835.  This entry has "padrino" from
1986.  There is no OED "padrino" entry so far--ed.)

Pg. 327:  Up got Dona Juana, in her eighty-fourth year, and danced a
sarandig, or heel-dance;...
   (OED does not have "sarandig"--ed.)

Pg. 354:  I ordered all the men to come upon the roof of the house, and I
thus addressed Borda, the vaqueano (or pilot), and his Paraguayan crew:...
   (OED has "vaquero" but not "vaqueano"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 4:  ...that I was to be dragged through pantanos (or quagmires), and
almost literally to sail over rivers, it will not be considered that it was too
lightly laden.
   (OED has one "pantano" in the "pant" etymology--ed.)

Pg. 118:  From his own cotton he made the clothing of his own household; he
reared his own pigs and poultry, killed his own game, made his own cheese and
butter; and was very celebrated for his chipa.*
*A very palatable bread, especially when just taken from the oven, made from
the Indian corn.
   ("Chipa" is not an entry in OED, but there's are 1885 and 1973 citations
under "manioc."  It should be an entry--ed.)
   (http://f.about.com/z/js/spr09sm.htm)
   (Chipa is a type of corn bread sold everywhere in Paraguay - on the
streets, at soccer games and in chiperias. Made from a mixture of starch, paraguayan
cheese, milk and corn, it is cheap and tasty. Chipa is traditionally made and
eaten in great quantities during holy week La Semana Santa. )

Pg. 142:  There, other sets were making preparations for the manufacturing
and storing of the yerba.  These preparations consisted, first, in the
construction of the _tatacua_.

Pg. 143:  When the yerba was thoroughly scorched, the fire was swept from
under the _barbacua_, or arch;...

Pg. 191:  At the feet of each lady (not, however, including the young
unmarried ones), sat a _mulatilla_, a female mulatto slave, nine or ten years of age,
with a large roll of Paraguay tobacco, and from this the mistresses
themselves made their immense cigars on their own laps.
   ("Mulatilla" is not in the revised OED--ed.)

Pg. 199:  Don Francisco Candioti was a distinguished (Pg. 200--ed.) personage
at this _convite_, or banquet, and his nephew Aldao ranked among the
marchants.
   (OED has "convite" as an obscure verb, not as a noun--ed.)

Pg. 201:  The third South American custom (and this one confounded me) was
that of the guests pelting each other at table with _pelotitas_, or bread-balls,
of the size of a pea.  They threw them off with the middle finger and thumb,
with generally unerring aim, and in such prodigious numbers, that the floor
was literally _invisible_ in many parts of the room.  All at table, without a
single exception, mixed in the fun, and with increasing eagerness as it
advanced.

Pg. 202:  These were _biscacheras_, or burrows of the biscacha, a destructive
and altogether useless animal.
   (OED has a1837 and then 1847 for "biscacha"--ed.)

Pg. 212:  To carnear, or "to procure beef," is this.

Pg. 214:  ...by the third day it came to us in the shape of _charque_,--the
beef cut into thin layers and strips, and dried over ropes in the sun, pretty
much as our laundresses dry clothes in this country; only the shirts,
handkerchiefs and petticoats were all beef.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 33:  The medical men, principally old Spaniards, whom Parlett found
established in Assumption, were the veriest quacks, the most arrant _matasanos_*
that Spain ever produced.
*Literally, killers of healthy persons.
   ("Matasano" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 151:  Ranged all round it were guests of every description,--fat old
ladies and slender misses,--friars and paycitos (or young gallants), natives of
Assumption,--compadres and comadres without end;...
   (OED does not have "paycito."   OED has 1834, then 1850 for "compadre."
OED has two hits but no entry for "comadre"--ed.)


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:08:32 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:08:32 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.090832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

For those of you who have been watching/citing Queer Eye For The Straight
Guy:

The official spelling according to the Bravo website:

In Case You Were Wondering
TJUZS: [jooj] verb
Technical term used in regards to personal
fashion. To tweak, to arrange, to place, as in
pushing sleeves up the forearm or stretching out
a collar on a knit shirt to make it look worn and
less "out of the box."

http://www.bravotv.com/Queer_Eye_for_the_Straight_Guy/Hints_&_Tips/Fashion/110.shtml

---------------

This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
WOTY.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:22:22 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:22:22 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230905120.7393@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.092222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:08:32AM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
time as well.

> This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
> WOTY.

OK, but first we need to have the obligatory, "But it actually
goes back to the 1970s or earlier!" discussion, haina?

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:29:13 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:29:13 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030922230608.05072630@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.092913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 22 Sep 2003, at 23:37, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>  think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
> toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
> above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
> "motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
> example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
> annoying/accursed/difficult".
>

Yes, the vagaries of documentary survival do sometimes result in a
primary sense's  being attested later than a secondary one.  It's a
tricky problem for editors of an abridged dictionary trying to
represent the historical facts in an accurate and succinct way.  If
you're the OED, you can lay out the documentary evidence but
place it in "logical" order to indicate that an earlier-attested word
probably descended from a later-attested one for which earlier
occurrences have simply not been found.  In an abridged dictionary
like the 11th Collegiate, though, you can't give the earlier date and
associate it with the later-attested sense without misrepresenting
the facts.  We, at any rate, have chosen to place the highest
premium on factual accuracy, and hope that any users  who might
find that occasionally confusing or illogical read  the front matter
explaining what our policy is.




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep 23 13:43:44 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:43:44 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230905120.7393@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094344.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is pronounced "yo (as in yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum) + "ee" as
in "peek")? That's all I can get out of [jooj], allthough the "oo"
(in place of [o:] adds even more mystery.

If [j] equals the "j" of "judge" and "oo" equals the "oo" of "moose,"
I might get "jooj" (is that right?), but why the brackets?

dInIs





And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

For those of you who have been watching/citing Queer Eye For The Straight
Guy:

The official spelling according to the Bravo website:

In Case You Were Wondering
TJUZS: [jooj] verb
Technical term used in regards to personal
fashion. To tweak, to arrange, to place, as in
pushing sleeves up the forearm or stretching out
a collar on a knit shirt to make it look worn and
less "out of the box."

http://www.bravotv.com/Queer_Eye_for_the_Straight_Guy/Hints_&_Tips/Fashion/110.shtml

---------------

This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
WOTY.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:35:45 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:35:45 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F701269.1097.4113AEF@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.093545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:29:13AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> On 22 Sep 2003, at 23:37, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> >  think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
> > toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
> > above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
> > "motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
> > example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
> > annoying/accursed/difficult".

In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
word.

> Yes, the vagaries of documentary survival do sometimes result in a
> primary sense's  being attested later than a secondary one.  It's a
> tricky problem for editors of an abridged dictionary trying to
> represent the historical facts in an accurate and succinct way.  If
> you're the OED, you can lay out the documentary evidence but
> place it in "logical" order to indicate that an earlier-attested word
> probably descended from a later-attested one for which earlier
> occurrences have simply not been found.

This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
sense.

HDAS will continue to present words in an assumed "logical" order
of sense development, but in these cases we will always have
notes pointing this out, as explained in the front matter.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:44:20 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:44:20 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <20030923132222.GA7394@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

>
> We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
> not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
> time as well.

The only reason I brought this one up is that it's from the Bravo website,
which is the official site of the show which spawned it.

By the way, I have no idea why my email appeared twice -- I know I only
sent it once, and it wasn't an instance where I thought it didn't go
through causing me to resend it. It appeared to go through fine and that
was that.

>
> OK, but first we need to have the obligatory, "But it actually
> goes back to the 1970s or earlier!" discussion, haina?

I'll start looking at Gore Vidal's works...


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:47:10 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:47:10 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bb95fdaee2d8@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> This is pronounced "yo (as in yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum) + "ee" as
> in "peek")? That's all I can get out of [jooj], allthough the "oo"
> (in place of [o:] adds even more mystery.
>
> If [j] equals the "j" of "judge" and "oo" equals the "oo" of "moose,"
> I might get "jooj" (is that right?), but why the brackets?

That was Bravo's brackets, not mine. They pronounce it on the show like
the vowel of nudzh. I don't think they're remotely aware of phonological
and phonetic conventions


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 14:31:37 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:31:37 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <20030923133545.GA19058@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.103137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:35 AM -0400 9/23/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
>out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
>can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
>need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
>concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
>word.


Not to speak for others, but at one point even I was driven to spell
perfectly good words like "motherfucker" with an asterisk.  It was
during an interval when I had to borrow a computer whose installed
version of Eudora (5.something, I think) insisted on asking me every
time I typed what it considered an off-color word whether I wanted my
keyboard washed out with soap.  In the end, I just put in the
asterisks (or used deliberate misspellings that I elaborated in my
ads-l postings--of course I don't send such messages to anyone
else!).  Now I'm back to my good old first-amendment-respecting
Eudora 4.3.2.  Some of the "motherf*ckin" offenders (or
non-offenders) on the list may just be afflicted with one of the
Ashcroftian versions of Eudora.

Larry


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:34:31 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:34:31 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <20030923133545.GA19058@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.103431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 23 Sep 2003, at 9:35, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
> the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
> word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
> we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
> sense.

Sorry for having forgotten about OED's change of policy, Jesse.
Am I correct in thinking that this change was motivated in part by
the availability of a great deal of new documentary evidence that
put many "illogical" orderings right?

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:42:11 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:11 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F7021B7.17850.44D08B6@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.104211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 10:34:31AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> On 23 Sep 2003, at 9:35, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
> > the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
> > word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
> > we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
> > sense.
>
> Sorry for having forgotten about OED's change of policy, Jesse.
> Am I correct in thinking that this change was motivated in part by
> the availability of a great deal of new documentary evidence that
> put many "illogical" orderings right?

That's a nice plus, but the main reason was just the more-descriptive
reason that our role should be to give the evidence, not start to
jockey the senses around to fit our impression of what the sense
development must have been. Also, more experience shows that what
we expect often doesn't match up with what's out there, even with
bigger databases.

An example from the revised public ranges of such an approach is

meat-axe...<note>The literal meaning at (2) is likely to
be the original use in English.</note>

1. A crude, violent, or drastic approach....
1831-

2. _lit._ An implement with a heavy blade used for cutting meat...
1833-

(Of course, this was a relatively early entry in terms of
availability of databases, so I'm sure by the time the day is
out Barry will have ensured that sense 2 is antedated by
several generations. But there are other examples.)

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:44:32 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:44:32 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bb96084dcc89@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.104432.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 10:31:37AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
> At 9:35 AM -0400 9/23/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> >
> >In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
> >out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
> >can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
> >need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
> >concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
> >word.
>
> Not to speak for others, but at one point even I was driven to spell
> perfectly good words like "motherfucker" with an asterisk.  It was
> during an interval when I had to borrow a computer whose installed
> version of Eudora (5.something, I think) insisted on asking me every
> time I typed what it considered an off-color word whether I wanted my
> keyboard washed out with soap.  In the end, I just put in the
> asterisks (or used deliberate misspellings that I elaborated in my
> ads-l postings--of course I don't send such messages to anyone
> else!).  Now I'm back to my good old first-amendment-respecting
> Eudora 4.3.2.  Some of the "motherf*ckin" offenders (or
> non-offenders) on the list may just be afflicted with one of the
> Ashcroftian versions of Eudora.

I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms. It
really does interfere with our ability to have proper discussions
about these topics.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 23 15:24:14 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:24:14 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.112414.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Landau's message of the other day reminded me that I had left a loose end after my original posting.  I had noted "I do not find "social vagrant" in the on-line OED."  I also haven't found it in the LATimes before this particular episode, nor after, except in a few follow-up stories regarding the people involved.  Evidently it was a euphemism concocted by someone at this time, one that never took hold.

Jim remarked "I find it difficult to believe that "reciprocal anal intercourse" is physically possible."  I suppose that "reciprocal" does not imply "simultaneous".

He further pointed out that "M-W, both 10th and 11th Collegiates, dates "606" as 1910.  "606" is one of the names of the drug arsphenamine, the first drug specific against syphilis---it refers to it being the 606th drug tested for activity against syphilis.  Is it possible that this group of transvestites named their organization "The Anti-Syphilis Club"?" --

Perhaps not an "ANTI-Syphilis Club" -- there was a notorious gay bar in late 19th C NYC called Paresis Hall.  (Though I doubt that that was the name on whatever licenses the bar carried.)  I also recall, vaguely, probably from reading about James Boswell, who was frequently clapped, that among rounders of the 18th century, gonorrhea was accepted, or passed off as, "an honorable scar of battle".  Perhaps the "606 Club" was a wry allusion to the likelihood of contracting syphillis through such activities as the club encouraged?  I will say that an allusion to syphillis would seem to me to be counterproductive in a pick-up line.

As I recall, "Paresis Hall" is discussed at some length in Gay New York : gender, urban culture, and the makings of the gay male world, 1890-1940, by George Chauncey (1994).  I can't put my hand on my copy and don't recall whether he supposes that the patrons called it that.  There is also an interesting glimpse in "A Cop Remembers", by Cornelius Willemse, early 1930s.  Willemse was a cop who before he joined the force had been the bouncer in a low bar across the street from Paresis Hall.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 15:58:31 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:58:31 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.115831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20030923/2a6801f8/attachment.html>

From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep 23 16:03:32 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:03:32 -0700
Subject: Eudora's Mood Watch; was, Re: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <200309231444.h8NEigDj023610@mtaw3.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.090332.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower wrote of "Ashcroftian versions of Eudora" (in Larry
Horn's memorable turn of phrase):

>I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
>or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms.

I can only speak to the matter of the Mac implementation, but
Eudora's Mood Watch is intended to discourage people from sending
potentially offensive messages *contrary to their own preferences*.
It's best seen as a cyber-Jiminy Cricket whom one can enclose in a
sound-proof jar if desired, although it's a feature, not a bug.

I believe that in the default setting - I may have changed it on my
machine - it simply displays questionable vocabulary in dark red and
puts one to three chilies next to the Send button in proportion to
the words' naughtiness and number, and then on queuing the message it
asks confirmation that despite the potential for offense (three
chilies = the keyboard/soap query) the user actually wants to send
the text unaltered.

Regardless of the defaults, disabling the feature entirely is a
matter of unchecking a single box in Special->Settings->Mood Watch,
and it's very easy to customize its range of application and
stringency as well.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 16:20:44 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:20:44 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923115827.0245d9d0@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.122044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan said:
At 10:44 AM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:

I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms. It
really does interfere with our ability to have proper discussions
about these topics


In defence of Eudora 5.1, which I use all the time, it's very easy to
turn the Nanny off, and you can say anything any time you like and
the program won't notice.  I have a colleague named Marie Draper
Dykes, and I very quickly got tired of Eudora flagging every message
that she sent me, not to mention every message that mentioned her.
She just rolls her eyes...

Geoff

PS  Instructions on how to turn it off available upon request.

Wotthehell, Geoff, let's just tell them to check the MoodWatcher
settings panel. I have mine set to alert but not to nag, because I
find it amusing to see what words the program is programmed to altert
you about.



--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep 23 16:37:03 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:37:03 -0700
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230942080.7729@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.093703.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 06:44 AM, Steve Kl. wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>> We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
>> not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
>> time as well.
>
> The only reason I brought this one up is that it's from the Bravo
> website,
> which is the official site of the show which spawned it.

the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.

steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.

an outside possibility is the Polari word <shush>.  see paul baker's
Polari - The Lost Language of Gay Men.

or someone could ask carson (from Queer Eye) if he remembers where he
first heard the word.

it could, of course, be an invention.  onomatopoetic, suggesting
smoothness.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 16:48:31 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:48:31 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.124831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:37:03AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
> spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.
>
> steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.
>
> an outside possibility is the Polari word <shush>.  see paul baker's
> Polari - The Lost Language of Gay Men.
>
> or someone could ask carson (from Queer Eye) if he remembers where he
> first heard the word.
>
> it could, of course, be an invention.  onomatopoetic, suggesting
> smoothness.

Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic about the dating--we _do_ have
evidence back to the 1970s. And it is in Baker--I don't have _Polari_
handy, but in the Polari section of _Fantabulosa_ he spells it
_zhoosh, jhoosh_, with six different senses as noun and verb, plus
the derived adjective _zhooshy_.

I think the spellings we have now include

zhush
zhuzh
zhoosh
zhoozh

Whoops, looking for these other spellings I now see an example
from 1968 in British use.

We don't seem to have any non-glossarial evidence for spellings
in j-, but my eyes are starting to cross.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 17:05:16 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:05:16 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.130516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
> spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.

That would have been my guess, too.

> steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.

That was actually a joke. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. I'll be
sure to emotigloss next time. :)

-- Steve


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 01:18:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:18:44 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.211844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brand-spanking-new word division:

Iraqification

Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
don't suppose I should play favorites.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 01:52:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:52:42 EDT
Subject: Yammish (sweet potato knish)
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.215242.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The NEW YORK PRESS "Best of New York 2003" issue has come out.  The 
VILLAGE VOICE will have its version in about two weeks.
   As I've said before, NEW YORK PRESS (and its new publication, NEW YORK 
SPORTS EXPRESS) has some faux hip writing that's just mean and unnecessary.  The 
selections are not attributed to a specific writer, and that's probably wise.  
Some of the text mentions drug use, working for porn magazines, shoplifting 
and other activities, completely "gratuitous" for any "Best Of" issue you'll 
ever read.
   There's a Food & Drinks "Best Of," of course.  
   "Yammish" doesn't have many Google hits, but it might be worth noting.
   
    
http://www.nypress.com/16/39/bestof/east.cfm
  
Best 24-Hour Yammish
H&H Midtown Bagels East
1551 2nd Ave. (betw. 80th & 81st Sts.), 212-734-7441
  
Wishes upon all those knishes. For native New Yorkers, there are only three 
types of knishes: potato, kasha and sweet potato. Sure there are spinach, 
broccoli and even cheese and fruit-filled knishes—but we leave them for the 
tree-hugging types. While we always enjoy the potato, and no one can argue with 
kasha, our favorite is the "yammish"—the sweet potato knish. For what is sweet 
potato, if not a type of yam?
  
The Romanian Rabbi Yonah Schimmel was the first to grasp the importance of 
the sweet potato delicacy, and his store has sold untold numbers since opening 
on Houston St. in 1910. But they’re not available to us 24 hours a day, leaving 
vampire types hanging and hungry late at night. 
  
Over to our friends at H&H Midtown Bagels East, where the gracious staff 
(especially manager Zahid Hassan) understands us when we order a yammish. They 
heat it up just right, allowing us to slice it in half and shmear that mustard 
right in the middle. Nothing tastes as sweet—especially since they’re delivered 
directly from Yonah Schimmel! They also carry a full line of bagels and 
pastries, baked fresh, 24 hours a day.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Sep 24 02:40:36 2003
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:40:36 -0500
Subject: New! emotigloss; was Re: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309231303280.22737@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.214036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>That was actually a joke. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. I'll be
>sure to emotigloss next time. :)
>
>-- Steve

I just googled this. NO matches! I like it!

Barbara


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 24 04:53:11 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:53:11 -0400
Subject: "haggies" from a 2000 posting about the Bronx
In-Reply-To: <001d01c37ef6$2c254340$1323a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.005311.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>      25.  Haggies or No Haggies...When someone bought a box of candy, you
> would yell haggies and he would have to share with you unless that person
> had shouted no haggies first

There are other forms, e.g., "wackies". These are equivalent to the more
common "dibs" ... which I believe is likely short for "divide" or "divvy"
(the request is to "divvy up" the treat) ... so just maybe "haggies" and
"wackies" are from "hack"/"whack" = "cut [into shares]". These juvenile
terms are old, I think, and the original item to be divided might have been
something like an apple more often than a box of candy ... maybe.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 05:53:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:53:47 EDT
Subject: Absinthe, Anisette, Beauvais, Bucella, Chartreuse (1819)
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.015347.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Subject: History of Absinthe and Travarica"

   The above is the subject of a recent discussion in rec.food.historic.
   OED has "absinthe" (the drink) from 1842...My old friend George W. Bush
flew into the neighborhood today, and I thought he'd enjoy some French wine.
   See:

http://www.absinth.com/links/history.html
   Modern absinthe allegedly was invented in 1792 by an extraordinary French
doctor called Pierre Ordinaire, who fled France's revolution to settle in
Couvet, a small village in western Switzerland. On his periodic journeys by
horseback, Dr. Ordinaire is said to have discovered the plant Artemisia absinthium
growing wild in the hills of the Val-de-Travers region. Like most country
doctors, he prepared his own remedies, and being acquainted with absinthe's use in
ancient times, he began experimenting with it.


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   15 September 1819, THE TIMES (London, Middlesex, England), pg. 4?, col. 4:
White Knights, near Reading.--By Mr. HAWKES, on the Premises, on Tuesday,
September 28, and following days, at all, by order of the Sheriif of Berks,
   A Genuine and capital Stock of costly Foreign Wines, of rich and exquisite
flavour, rare and superior liqueurs and cordials, Arbois, Alba Flora,
Alicant, Anisette, Absinthe, Arrack, Bucellas, Brandy, Claret, Cyprus, Constantia,
Chartreuse, Chablis, Cote Torie, Carbonnieux, Champagne, Cercial, Curacoa,
Frontignac, Hermitage, Hock, Madeira, Malaga, Moselle, Mountain, Neifchatel, Noyau,
Preniac, Beauvais and Almeida Port, Paccarcte, Picoli, Rosolie, Rhenish,
Ratafia, Sherry, Santa Maria, St. Peres, Sauterne, Tokay, Vin de Grave,
Usquebaugh, and Xeres.  Catalogues, (without which no one can be admitted) may be had 7
days previous to the sale, at half-a-crown each, of Wm. Payne, Esq.
Maidenhead; Mr. Knight, Windsor; Rose-inn, Wokingham; White Lion Hartford-bridge;
Bush-inn, Staines; the Auction Mart, London; and of Hawkes and Co., appraisers,
Reading.


(OED has 1837 for "anisette."  Merriam-Webster's 11th has 1836...OED has 1836
for "bucellas," from Charles Dickens...OED has 1866 for "chartreuse"
liqueur...OED has 1885 for the earliest "Beauvais" entry...OED has one 1842 citation
for "Vin de Grave"...The rec.food.historic discussion mentions "cana," which I
just recently posted here...Wednesday's (today) NEW YORK TIMES has a story on
the "tailgate party."  No dates are given, and my "tailgate" work is not
mentioned...More parking tickets and another wasted day today--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 07:23:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:23:22 EDT
Subject: "Suck up and kick down" (1997)
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.032322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Look, he was a Rhodes Scholar.  They suck upwards and kick downwards."
--Andrew Sullivan today on Wesley Clark, at www.andrewsullivan.com


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:davidpug%40online.no+">David C. Pugh</A> (<A HREF="mailto:davidpug%40online.no">davidpug at online.no</A>)
Subject: Re: Eleventh Century Islam
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=soc.history.medieval">soc.history.medieval</A>
Date: 2001-11-06 07:11:05 PST
(...)
  From John Reed to Archie Bunker, so to speak. From "let'scrush the
parasitic rich" to "let's crush the parasitic poor". Suck upwards, kick downwards. In
Europe we used to call that fascism.....


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:davidpug%40online.no+">David C Pugh</A> (<A HREF="mailto:davidpug%40online.no">davidpug at online.no</A>)
Subject: Re: Manufactured grievances? (Was: Re: Isreal.....)
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.callahans">alt.callahans</A>
Date: 2003-08-14 02:00:51 PST
(...)
The formulation "suck upwards, kick downwards" hit the spot, she actually got
it. My finest hour :-)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:jeffno%40blackburn.ccs.neu.edu+">Jeffrey Nowakowski</A> (<A HREF="mailto:jeffno%40blackburn.ccs.neu.edu">jeffno at blackburn.ccs.neu.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Tom Holub is a big white supremacist (was Re: something)
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.games.netrek">rec.games.netrek</A>
Date: 1998/06/18
(...)
> Remember Newton's third law "Kick down and suck up". In that aspect> I
guess you made some notches on the clue ladder thanks to the above> comment.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:d3marten%40dtek.chalmers.se+">M}rten R}nge</A> (<A HREF="mailto:d3marten%40dtek.chalmers.se">d3marten at dtek.chalmers.se</A>)
Subject: Re: Help how can I get this nettrek game
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.games.netrek">rec.games.netrek</A>
Date: 1998/01/18
(...)
   However if your team loses and a player got high numbers tof,acc,cak and
def quickly post a letter where you clearly pointout, that apart frm generally
sucky team play, the reason that your team lost was because of mr. Suck here,
just look his stats, I mean was he bought by the other team? Remember Newton's
2nd law; kick down and suck up.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:hkilpatr%40osf1.gmu.edu+">HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.</A> (<A HREF="mailto:hkilpatr%40osf1.gmu.edu">hkilpatr at osf1.gmu.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Bums in the woodwork.
Newsgroups: &lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.rush-limbaugh">alt.rush-limbaugh</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.fan.rush-limbaugh">alt.fan.rush-limbaugh</A>
Date: 1997/07/11
(...)
This was just another right wing attack on the poor and: >helpless.  Of
course, you whiney right wingers all suck up and kick down.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_04.24.97/news_views/naked.html
> T. Remember the motto of all successful journalists: "Suck up and kick
> down."


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Sep 24 14:09:27 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:09:27 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <p04320403bb969ff6443c@[130.132.231.171]>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.100927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:18 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Brand-spanking-new word division:
>
>Iraqification
>
>Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
>September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
>Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
>with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
>note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
>Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>
>larry


Safire's column this coming Sunday deals with this. We received hundreds of
emails on it, the overwhelming majority choosing Iraqification as well


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Sep 24 14:48:30 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:48:30 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030924100735.00b21570@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.104830.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Iraqification
>> ........... there are also six
>>Nexis hits on "Iraqization"...........
>>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>>
>>larry
 ~~~~~~~~~
I think more than just sound comes into this: there is a greater political
truth involved as well.  Unless my own sense of these suffixes is wrong,
there is a greater suggestion of arising from within in /-ization/, whereas
/-ification/ carries a sense of an outside agency bringing about  the
change.  It certainly looks like we're trying to avoid the former while
effecting the latter!
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 16:33:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:33:18 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.123318.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what, about 40 years old?
   From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=20962&city=1


09.23.03
DailyCandy Lexicon V

In the proud tradition of swish, drailing, flossin', and mitin, we present the DailyCandy Lexicon V, wherein we take the illustrious English vocabulary and give it a little DailyCandy shake.

The bon mots of the moment are:

spenny:
Pricey; short for "expensive." (Sure I like that place, but it's kinda spenny.)

NUMP/NUWT:
Obnoxious party-invite acronyms, as in No Ugly Men, Please/No Ugly Women, Thanks.

e-mauling:
Stalking someone via e-mail.

guyatus:
A hiatus from guys. (Thanks, but no thanks. I'm kind of on guyatus.)

scum:
Self-Centered Urban Male. Know any?

fifty-footer:
Someone who looks really attractive from 50 feet away. Closer examination reveals ...

KISS:
Keep It Simple, Stupid.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 16:44:16 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:44:16 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030924100735.00b21570@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.124416.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 09:18 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>Brand-spanking-new word division:
>>
>>Iraqification
>>
>>Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
>>September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
>>Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
>>with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
>>note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
>>Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
>>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>>
>>larry
>
>
>Safire's column this coming Sunday deals with this. We received hundreds of
>emails on it, the overwhelming majority choosing Iraqification as well

Well, I'm glad I beat the rush.

L


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Sep 24 16:56:24 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:56:24 -0700
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
In-Reply-To: <6412A989.6656AF3F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.095624.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 09:33 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what,
> about 40 years old?
>    From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.

i can vouch for 33 years.  KISS appeared on a student evaluation of a
colleague's teaching in 1970.  it was the first time i'd heard it, but
it was clearly current among students and professors in my
institution's college of education, where it served as a teaching
slogan.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 24 17:01:14 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:01:14 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.130114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I first heard KISS/Keep It Simple, Stupid from a teacher in 1972 or 1973, so it's at least 30 years old.  He said that he had learned it in the Marine Corps.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:33 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5


   It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what, about 40 years old?
   From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=20962&city=1


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 17:08:36 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:08:36 -0400
Subject: Absinthe, Anisette, Beauvais, Bucella, Chartreuse (1819)
In-Reply-To: <73.354038f7.2ca28b6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.130836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:53 AM -0400 9/24/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>"Subject: History of Absinthe and Travarica"
>
>...
>http://www.absinth.com/links/history.html
>    Modern absinthe allegedly was invented in 1792 by an extraordinary French
>doctor called Pierre Ordinaire, who fled France's revolution to settle in
>Couvet, a small village in western Switzerland. On his periodic journeys by
>horseback, Dr. Ordinaire is said to have discovered the plant
>Artemisia absinthium
>growing wild in the hills of the Val-de-Travers region. Like most country
>doctors, he prepared his own remedies, and being acquainted with
>absinthe's use in
>ancient times, he began experimenting with it.
>
I always wondered where "vin ordinaire" came from...

L


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Sep 24 18:11:03 2003
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:11:03 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5 (E-Mauling)
In-Reply-To: <6412A989.6656AF3F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.141103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> e-mauling:
> Stalking someone via e-mail.

This is one of those stunt mutations in search of a usage. It's been
repeatedly submitted to the Jargon Watch column since at least 2001
(with few reliable cites), always meaning something different: being
bombarded by junk mail, being verbally attacked via email, and being
hit on/stalked via email. Nice to know that sometimes these silly
coinages won't  stick no matter how much people try to promote them.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Sep 24 21:48:05 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:48:05 -0400
Subject: Language Removal
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.174805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Found on BoingBoing.net, which writes,

"Language Removal project: stump-speeches without any words
The Language Removal project edits political speeches to remove all the
words, leaving only the uhs humms and errrs. They've got a page of
California guberantorial hopefuls grunting and clicking -- it's cool,
you can sort of make out their positions better this way."

http://www.languageremoval.com/recall.html

Grant


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 12:48:39 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:48:39 EDT
Subject: Bloody Mary
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.084839.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called "Bloody Mary" because
she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody" because so many
people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.

Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in British English, are
British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as "Bloody Mary"?

               - Jim Landau

"When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean I like your
bloody cheek!"
    - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"


From bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Sep 25 13:21:19 2003
From: bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Barbara Johnstone)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:21:19 -0400
Subject: Discourse Studies position at Carnegie Mellon
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.092119.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Rhetoric Program in the Department of English at Carnegie Mellon
University invites applications for a tenure-track position in the area of
discourse studies. The Department is looking for an outstanding teacher and
scholar/researcher who does work in the structures and strategies of written
and spoken discourse. Special competencies may include but are not limited
to one or more of the following: critical and deliberative discourse, public
health communication, argumentation, public and community discourse,
sociolinguistics, or intercultural rhetoric.

We are especially interested in candidates at the Assistant level, but will
consider highly qualified individuals at the untenured and tenured Associate
levels.

The Rhetoric Program supervises a B. A. in professional writing, a B. S. in
technical writing, an M.A. in professional writing, an M. Design in
communication planning and information design (joint with the School of
Design), and an M.A. and Ph.D. in rhetoric. The English Department also
offers B.A.s in creative writing and in English, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in
literary and cultural studies.

Qualifications:
Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment in Rhetoric, Linguistics,
Communication Studies, or closely related field (e.g., American Studies,
Anthropology, Cognitive or Social Psychology, Cultural Studies, Law,
Philosophy). The Department will prefer candidates with successful teaching
experiences, research and publication records, and interdisciplinary skills
appropriate to teaching and publishing in rhetoric. The Department will also
prefer candidates who, in addition to teaching in their specialization, can
teach in our general curriculum (e.g., Rhetorical Traditions),  both at the
undergraduate and graduate levels.

The successful candidate is expected to establish a strong research program,
demonstrate excellent teaching performance, and contribute to professional
and public service. Duties include: teach and develop undergraduate and
graduate courses; supervise graduate student research; develop a research
program; participate in faculty governance; participate in department,
university, professional and public service. Candidates for Associate
Professor will possess academic credentials to qualify for a tenured faculty
appointment at Carnegie Mellon.

Appointment, Rank, and Salary:
Nine-month, tenure-track position; rank of assistant professor; possibly
tenured or untenured associate; competitive salary. The teaching load is two
courses each semester. Starting date is Fall, 2004.

Application Procedure:
Send letter of application that includes a statement of career goals within
the context of the position, a curriculum vitae, and three letters of
reference to:

Professor David S. Kaufer
ATTN:  Discourse Studies Position
Department of English
Baker Hall 259
Pittsburgh, PA 15213

Application Deadline:
Review of applications will begin  on November 1, 2003 until the position is
filled.  The deadline to insure full consideration is postmarked by November
1, 2003.

We plan to make a preliminary selection of potential candidates early in
December and hope to meet with any of those candidates attending the Modern
Language Association meeting in San Diego in December. Other potential
candidates who are not attending the MLA meeting will be contacted by
telephone. We anticipate campus interviews in January.

Carnegie Mellon University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action
employer. For further information about department and university, see:
http://english.cmu.edu.



________________________________

Barbara Johnstone
Professor of Rhetoric and Linguistics
Department of English
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890

bj4 at andrew.cmu.edu
phone/voicemail 01.412.268.6447
fax 01.412.268.7989
http://english.cmu.edu/people/faculty/homepages/johnstone/default.html


From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Sep 25 14:17:17 2003
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:17:17 -0600
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <118.29429099.2ca43e27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.081717.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910




> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of James A. Landau
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Bloody Mary
>
>
> My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> "Bloody Mary" because
> she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> because so many
> people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
>
> Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> British English, are
> British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> "Bloody Mary"?
>
>                - Jim Landau
>
> "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> I like your
> bloody cheek!"
>     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Thu Sep 25 15:38:26 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:38:26 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.113826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?

T.M.P.
www.paikeday.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Bloody Mary


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
>
> Victoria
>
> Victoria Neufeldt
> 727 9th Street East
> Saskatoon, Sask.
> S7H 0M6
> Canada
> Tel: 306-955-8910
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society
> > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > Of James A. Landau
> > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Bloody Mary
> >
> >
> > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> > "Bloody Mary" because
> > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> > because so many
> > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
> >
> > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> > British English, are
> > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> > "Bloody Mary"?
> >
> >                - Jim Landau
> >
> > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> > I like your
> > bloody cheek!"
> >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 18:24:58 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:24:58 -0400
Subject: Fakir (1975); Municipality of Wind (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.142458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAKIR

   OED has 1882.

   21 June 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 4:
      _Our Street Fakirs.*_
   The fakirs here meant are neither Persian dervishes nor Hindoo ascetics.  Fakir is the technical term for a street-peddler--the men who, behind their stands at the street-corners, solicit by voice and gesture the patronage of the public.
(...)
*Mayhew, the only writer on this subject, uses the term Fakement to designate a statement drawn up for the purposes of deception; hence the word Fake--goods made for the street sale, so the vender is called Fakir.

---------------------------------------------------------------
MUNICIPALITY OF WIND

   8 March 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 5:
      _The Mayor's Movements._
   Mayor Johnston and his "next friend," Quinn, the Roofer, returned from Chicago yesterday morning.  The train was due here early, but was detained by the trifling circumstances of a "jump off" two hours this side of the City of the Lakes, and a much more emphatic adventure on a bridge near Richmond.
(...)
   In Chicago both gentlemen met,...
   What they didn't see, we venture to wager, in that five hours wasn't worth seeing in the Municipality of Wind.


   25 February 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1:
   _INDIANAPOLIS LETTER._
(...)  They read the Chicago papers; are proud of Chicago's prosperity; believe in Chicago wind; trust in Chicago; and swear by Chicago; but when it comes to cutting up the glorious State of Indiana to accommodate Chicago they will rebel.


   6 February 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 2:
      _CHICAGO BLOWING._
   _The Wind-Swept, Fire-Scorched and Frozen_
      _City--Nice Place to Live._


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Thu Sep 25 18:59:12 2003
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:59:12 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <002101c3837b$104e7860$c7706395@thomaspaikeday>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.145912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, "bloody" did use to be a swear word--counted among the many words
relating to the death of Christ and thus considered profane, including
"zounds" (short for "God's wounds"). Nowadays it has about the same impact
as saying "damned."

But to get back to the original question, Bloody Mary is so named because
of her reputation for having Protestants killed (she didn't physically kill
them herself--queens have other people to do the nasty work for them)--and
yes, schoolchildren call her that without a second thought. I doubt they
even connect it with the "swearing" use of "bloody," which most of them
employ frequently enough!

Wendalyn Nichols

At 11:38 AM 9/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
>teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
>adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?
>
>T.M.P.
>www.paikeday.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
>Subject: Re: Bloody Mary
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
> >
> > Victoria
> >
> > Victoria Neufeldt
> > 727 9th Street East
> > Saskatoon, Sask.
> > S7H 0M6
> > Canada
> > Tel: 306-955-8910
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: American Dialect Society
> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > > Of James A. Landau
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Subject: Bloody Mary
> > >
> > >
> > > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> > > "Bloody Mary" because
> > > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> > > because so many
> > > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
> > >
> > > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> > > British English, are
> > > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> > > "Bloody Mary"?
> > >
> > >                - Jim Landau
> > >
> > > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> > > I like your
> > > bloody cheek!"
> > >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 19:06:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:06:36 -0400
Subject: Hoochnoo (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.150636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TYPING MISTAKES:  "Fakir" is from "1875," not 1975.  Also, in yesterday's post, the day before was September "23," not September 22.

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOOCHNOO

   OED has 1877 for "Hoochinoo."  I'm not allowed to copy from the bound volumes.  (The LOC didn't microfilm these early years of the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER.)  Perhaps this long article is also on Ancestry?


   12 July 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
_The Alaska Indians and Whisky._
      WASHINGTON, D. C., July, 1875.
   The following interesting letter written by a prominent citizen of British Columbia has been officially communicated to the United States Government:
      VICTORIA, February 5, 1875.
Colonel Q. W. Powell, Commissioner of Indian Affairs in British Columbia:
   SIR:  I beg leave to present you a bottle of whisky distilled by Indians residing near Sitka, Alaska.  It is made from molasses, and known among them as "Hoochnoo." (...)
   The Hoochnoo I send you is within five per cent. of proof, and meets all the requirements of first-class fire-water.  They make it from molasses and sugar, with potatoes added, and the proper season can use all the sweet berries of which the country furnishes an abundance. (...)
   H. GASTIN.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Sep 25 19:32:15 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:32:15 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030925144846.00ab8ba0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.153215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding is that 'bloody' refers not to Christ (or his blood) but
to Mary: "by our Lady" --> "bloody" by elision.

At 02:59 PM 9/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Actually, "bloody" did use to be a swear word--counted among the many words
>relating to the death of Christ and thus considered profane, including
>"zounds" (short for "God's wounds"). Nowadays it has about the same impact
>as saying "damned."
>
>But to get back to the original question, Bloody Mary is so named because
>of her reputation for having Protestants killed (she didn't physically kill
>them herself--queens have other people to do the nasty work for them)--and
>yes, schoolchildren call her that without a second thought. I doubt they
>even connect it with the "swearing" use of "bloody," which most of them
>employ frequently enough!
>
>Wendalyn Nichols
>
>At 11:38 AM 9/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
>>teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
>>adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?
>>
>>T.M.P.
>>www.paikeday.net
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
>>Subject: Re: Bloody Mary
>>
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>header -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>> > Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-----
>> >
>> > 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
>> >
>> > Victoria
>> >
>> > Victoria Neufeldt
>> > 727 9th Street East
>> > Saskatoon, Sask.
>> > S7H 0M6
>> > Canada
>> > Tel: 306-955-8910
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: American Dialect Society
>> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> > > Of James A. Landau
>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
>> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > > Subject: Bloody Mary
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
>> > > "Bloody Mary" because
>> > > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
>> > > because so many
>> > > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
>> > >
>> > > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
>> > > British English, are
>> > > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
>> > > "Bloody Mary"?
>> > >
>> > >                - Jim Landau
>> > >
>> > > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
>> > > I like your
>> > > bloody cheek!"
>> > >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> > Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 21:25:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:25:37 -0400
Subject: Hoochnoo (1875); Shyse (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.172537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HOOCHNOO (continued)

   12 July 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
(Should read "in the proper season."  I'll add another paragraph--ed.)
   It was first made at an Indian ranch called "Hoochnoo," in Admiralty Island, from which it took its name.  The indians soon learned the secret of its manufacture, and communicated the knowledge from one to another, until now all know it.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SHYSE

   OED does not have "shyse."  The HDAS stops at the letter "O" for now, but perhaps this helps.


   4 October 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
      _"Queer" People._
(...)  Three $5 bills of the "queer" were found on their persons. (...) On searching a trunk six more of the "shyse" bills were found.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 22:13:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:13:01 -0400
Subject: Joker card (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.181301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED appears to have 1885 for the "joker."  ("The Joker" was not coined by the Steve Miller Band.)


   28 November 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 1:

_FAKIRS AND FAKING._

_The Science of "Beating the Gillies"_
   _Illustrated._

_Three-Card Monte, "Head Faking," The "Case,"_
   _"Box Rocket," "Ring-Board," &c._

(...)
   The "baby," the "joker," the "old man" are samples of the titles lavished upon this card.
(The third card in three-card monte--ed.)
(...)
   A "capper," or in other words a man who lures the victims to their fate, keeps a lookout at the door of the side-show or on the lot outside for subjects who appear sufficiently green to be easily robbed.
(...)
   The trick of marking the cards is sometimes varied by the dealer himself turning an edge of the "joker," or, in slang phrase, "crimping" it.
(...)
   The "ringed finger" is the sland phrase that designates the finger that is used in this performance.
(...)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Sep 26 01:21:44 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:21:44 -0500
Subject: "shyse" in the 1865 Cincinnati Enquirer
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.202144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 5:25 PM -0400 9/25/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>SHYSE
>
>    OED does not have "shyse."  The HDAS stops at the letter "O" for
>now, but perhaps this helps.
>
>    4 October 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
>       _"Queer" People._
>(...)  Three $5 bills of the "queer" were found on their persons.
>(...) On searching a trunk six more of the "shyse" bills were found.


  This is an alternate spelling of cant "shise" (from German, where it
has the basic meaning "excrement"), possibly under the influence of
the -y- in "shyster." In 19th century British (American too?) cant,
"shise" was used to mean "something worthless (e.g., worthless
merchandise); nothing; worthless; no good."
I saw at least several attestations of it in the 1865 _Leaves From
The Diary of A Celebrated Burglar and Pickpocket_. Here's one example
I have handy; the reference is to a thief's "moll":
(p.63): 'He had striven much to civilize her during the time she had
been with him, but 'twas "no bottle" [G. Cohen: = nothing doing, no
dice]--she couldn't "collar" the idea.  Whatever else she could
"collar" was natural to her, but all the "kid" he could use on her
was, as he said afterwards, "chucked away for 'shise.' 'Twarn't in
the red headed cow."'

    Btw, Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_ presents the
spellings "shise" and "shice."

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 26 08:53:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:53:28 EDT
Subject: Celery Salt (1874)
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.045328.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Kraig said his research shows that Italian and Greek hot dog stand vendors
competed for business by loading up a dog with more stuff back around 1920.
This explains why a Chicago-style hot dog has traditional German elements
(mustard, celery salt and sour pickles) in addition to Mediterranean add-ons
(tomatoes, hot peppers, relish).
--CHICAGO TRIBUNE, September 5, 2003 (previously posted)


   "Celery salt" (from 1876) was posted in the archives.  This citation is a
little earlier.  It's listed as a "new invention."
   From my CINCINNATI ENQUIRER search today.  Again, John Mariani's
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) states that "celery salt" was first
advertised in the 1897 Sears, Roebuck catalog.  He's never wrong.


   14 May 1874, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 2:
      _Royal Celery Salt._
   This is a new invention, and consists of desiccated or prepared Celery,
put up in a powdered form, so that we may now really have this delicious relish
on our tables the year round.
   The Royal Baking Powder Co., N. Y., are sole proprietors and patentees of
this new condiment.  It is put up in elegant cruets, and sold by grocers for
25 cents each.  The bottle alone is worth the money.


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 26 09:09:08 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:09:08 -0700
Subject: war lingo
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.020908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"It has been told to the officers I have spoken to
that 3rd PERSCOM refers to moving soldiers as 'drug
deals.' You do this for me and I'll make sure your
soldiers go home, etc."
--http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0924-09.htm


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Fri Sep 26 14:37:44 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:37:44 -0500
Subject: mongo/mungo
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.093744.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robin Nagle, who is researching a book on NYC sanitation workers, is
curious about the origin of the word mongo (or mungo), meaning
something found in the trash that the sanitation worker decides to
keep.

There's an entry at 'mongo' in HDAS, but it's fairly terse. (There's
a cite from a New Yorker article of 1984 (Sept. 24) and from "In the
Cut" by S. Moore, 1995.) I couldn't find anything in the ADS-L
archives.

Does anyone have any further information on this word that they could
share with Ms. Nagle? She's especially interested in any other words
to describe the same or similar things, and if there are regional
variants. Please reply to her directly as she does not read the ADS
list.

Thanks!

Erin


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Fri Sep 26 15:20:37 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:37 -0700
Subject: worldwide accents of English
In-Reply-To: <20030926090908.85646.qmail@web41415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.082037.0700.>

a small sample of English accents

the design of the web page needs work ;)

http://www.gazzaro.it/accents/files/accents2.html


Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 26 15:55:26 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:55:26 -0400
Subject: Joker card (1875)
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.115526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have the following notes, the first seeming to refer to the shell-game itself, the second referring figuratively to the pea that is the hidden object in the shell-game.

1846:   Playing the little "Joker."  [headline]  [A rube visits a] "crib" in Park Row, where . . . the "boys" were playing the thimble rig, commonly called the little Joker.  New York Herald, February 8, 1846, p. 1, col. 4

1855:   So dexterously are the cup and balls shifted by the party leaders, . . . that the rank and file of the different cliques can't tell where the "little joker" is. . . .  Q. K. Philander Doesticks [Mortimer Neal Thomson], Doesticks: What He Says, N. Y.: Edward Livermore, 1855, p. 271.

HDAS: 1856 (ref. to the pea)); OED°, but under Joker, 3a, has 1858 quote: The thimble-rigger’s ‘little joker’, from OWHolmes

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:13 pm
Subject: Joker card (1875)

>   OED appears to have 1885 for the "joker."  ("The Joker" was not
> coined by the Steve Miller Band.)
>
>
>   28 November 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 1:
>
> _FAKIRS AND FAKING._
>
> _The Science of "Beating the Gillies"_
>   _Illustrated._
>
> _Three-Card Monte, "Head Faking," The "Case,"_
>   _"Box Rocket," "Ring-Board," &c._
>
> (...)
>   The "baby," the "joker," the "old man" are samples of the
> titles lavished upon this card.
> (The third card in three-card monte--ed.)
> (...)
>   A "capper," or in other words a man who lures the victims to
> their fate, keeps a lookout at the door of the side-show or on the
> lot outside for subjects who appear sufficiently green to be
> easily robbed.
> (...)
>   The trick of marking the cards is sometimes varied by the
> dealer himself turning an edge of the "joker," or, in slang
> phrase, "crimping" it.
> (...)
>   The "ringed finger" is the sland phrase that designates the
> finger that is used in this performance.
> (...)
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 26 19:12:11 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
Subject: ADS hotel rates
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.151211.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.

I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
(including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have them
cheaper (AAA rate).


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Sep 27 14:42:34 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:42:34 -0400
Subject: worldwide accents of English
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.104234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan and Luanne should put their oar in these waters.  USA and Canada get
short shrift.  There is nothing from the mountain south or the piedmont,
nothing from New England, north central or southwest or midlands.  This
site surely (as advised) needs work.

David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Sep 27 16:45:13 2003
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:45:13 -0400
Subject: worldwide accents of English
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017947883b9aca00d9b2b9a0.17947a6@chain.highland s.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.124513.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Black English is also terrible, Brooklyn is bad, and the "General
American" doesn't sound like anyone I know.  I can only assume the British
and Irish voices are OK.

At 10:42 AM 9/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Joan and Luanne should put their oar in these waters.  USA and Canada get
>short shrift.  There is nothing from the mountain south or the piedmont,
>nothing from New England, north central or southwest or midlands.  This
>site surely (as advised) needs work.
>
>David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
>The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
>Lexik at highlands.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Sep 27 21:59:17 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:59:17 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <200309221758.h8MHw8L27009@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.175917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
files any earlier citations than 1984?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 27 22:32:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:32:22 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.183222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

Christine Ammer in The Am. Heritage Dic of Idioms says it comes from the
1940's.  No cite of course.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 00:23:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:23:11 EDT
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.202311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Happy (Jewish) New Year.
   Just back from a visit with the family...My cousin has two beautiful,
smart daughters.  One is a junior at Yale.  The other--17 and more of a knockout
than Cameron Diaz--just scored 760 and 800 on her SATs.  She's applying to
Yale.  Lucky Yale!  Hot dog!  That school would be nothing without me and my
family!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HOOKER

   Yes, "hooker" is wrong again today.  Does someone hide dictionaries and
internet search engines from journalists?  And when a newspaper is informed of
an error, can't they simply correct it?
   Do you have to sue them to tell the truth?


   27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, col. 1:
_Spare the Blushes_
_At the National Mall_
   DALE McFEATTERS
   IF Abaham Lincoln had been looking out over the National Mall on Sept. 4,
he would have seen a gyrating Britney Spears being partially undressed by male
dancers in Redskins jerseyd.
(...)
   So when Lincoln looked out on the Mall, what did he see?
(...)
   And swarms of prostitutes.  Union Gen. Joe Hooker, while refitting the
Army of the Potomac in Washington, tried mightily to chase them away from his
soldiers.  (For his troubles, his name became a slang common noun for
practitioners of the oldest profession.)
(...)
E-mail: McFeattersD at SHNS.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
JOJO POTATOES

   Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE or PUCK from ProQuest.  Only about 10 more months
until August, when promised.
   NYU now has FACTIVA available again, without need for an NYU ID.  Here's
"jojo potatoes," FWIW.  A Seattle, Washington specialty?


(FACTIVA)
LIFESTYLE
Goldenrod eggs breakfast from past
Marcia O. Burg
958 words
9 May 1990
Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph
D3
(...)

DEAR MARCIA: Can you provide me with a recipe  for Jo-Jo potatoes, which I
tasted in Springfield, Mo.?   - Mary Browning, Colorado Springs

The last time we published a method for making these  crispy browned wedges -
Sept. 28, 1988 - I understood the  dish was a Seattle Wash., specialty.
Apparently it's gone  national!

JO-JO POTATOES

6 large unpeeled baking potatoes, thoroughly scrubbed

Salad oil

Garlic salt, paprika and/or other herbs or herb mixtures  (no monosodium
glutamate)

Halve potatoes lengthwise, then cut each half in 4 wedges. Parboil 5 minutes;
drain well, and brush cut surfaces lightly  with oil. Sprinkle with
seasonings and bake in preheated  350-degree oven till tender, golden brown and crisp.
Serve  hot as a snack or side dish.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Sep 28 00:38:25 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:38:25 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.203825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Before 1984...

See Wentworth and Flexner (c. 1960) and Partridge (c. 1984 "WW2").

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Sep 28 00:23:24 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:23:24 -0500
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <001401c38547$39a6a2a0$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.192324.0500.>

Is "Shit or get off the pot" generally interpreted as meaning the same thing
as "Fish or cut bait"?

Herb (or recent thread)

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Sam Clements
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:32 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


Fred,

Christine Ammer in The Am. Heritage Dic of Idioms says it comes from the
1940's.  No cite of course.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:05:32 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:05:32 -0400
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.210532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

When did "broasted chicken" become a phrase?  That might be a clue.  Here in
Northern Ohio chicken and JoJo's only come together.  And I think they were
here in 1972 when I arrived.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 8:23 PM
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)


>    Happy (Jewish) New Year.
>    Just back from a visit with the family...My cousin has two beautiful,
> smart daughters.  One is a junior at Yale.  The other--17 and more of a
knockout
> than Cameron Diaz--just scored 760 and 800 on her SATs.  She's applying to
> Yale.  Lucky Yale!  Hot dog!  That school would be nothing without me and
my
> family!
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---------------------------------------------
> HOOKER
>
>    Yes, "hooker" is wrong again today.  Does someone hide dictionaries and
> internet search engines from journalists?  And when a newspaper is
informed of
> an error, can't they simply correct it?
>    Do you have to sue them to tell the truth?
>
>
>    27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, col. 1:
> _Spare the Blushes_
> _At the National Mall_
>    DALE McFEATTERS
>    IF Abaham Lincoln had been looking out over the National Mall on Sept.
4,
> he would have seen a gyrating Britney Spears being partially undressed by
male
> dancers in Redskins jerseyd.
> (...)
>    So when Lincoln looked out on the Mall, what did he see?
> (...)
>    And swarms of prostitutes.  Union Gen. Joe Hooker, while refitting the
> Army of the Potomac in Washington, tried mightily to chase them away from
his
> soldiers.  (For his troubles, his name became a slang common noun for
> practitioners of the oldest profession.)
> (...)
> E-mail: McFeattersD at SHNS.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---------------------------------------------
> JOJO POTATOES
>
>    Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE or PUCK from ProQuest.  Only about 10 more
months
> until August, when promised.
>    NYU now has FACTIVA available again, without need for an NYU ID.
Here's
> "jojo potatoes," FWIW.  A Seattle, Washington specialty?
>
>
> (FACTIVA)
> LIFESTYLE
> Goldenrod eggs breakfast from past
> Marcia O. Burg
> 958 words
> 9 May 1990
> Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph
> D3
> (...)
>
> DEAR MARCIA: Can you provide me with a recipe  for Jo-Jo potatoes, which I
> tasted in Springfield, Mo.?   - Mary Browning, Colorado Springs
>
> The last time we published a method for making these  crispy browned
wedges -
> Sept. 28, 1988 - I understood the  dish was a Seattle Wash., specialty.
> Apparently it's gone  national!
>
> JO-JO POTATOES
>
> 6 large unpeeled baking potatoes, thoroughly scrubbed
>
> Salad oil
>
> Garlic salt, paprika and/or other herbs or herb mixtures  (no monosodium
> glutamate)
>
> Halve potatoes lengthwise, then cut each half in 4 wedges. Parboil 5
minutes;
> drain well, and brush cut surfaces lightly  with oil. Sprinkle with
> seasonings and bake in preheated  350-degree oven till tender, golden
brown and crisp.
> Serve  hot as a snack or side dish.
>


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:13:02 2003
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:13:02 EDT
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.211302.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred:

I am a mere lurker here - especially because I enjoy Barry's food research. 
But just for fun, I did a search on google and here is something I found that 
may or may not be correct:

<A HREF="http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/675.html">http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/675.html</A>



Posted by ESC on November 30, 2002 at 23:38:26:
In Reply to: Re: All about sh*t posted by ESC on November 30, 2002 at 
20:22:59:

: : : : : : I am doing an English assignment on shit, I have heard a history 
of it meaning: Ship High In Transit. Does anyone know of any other meaning? 
Please get back to me soon as my project is due on Monday Dec.2, 2002. Thank 
you!!!!

: : : : : There are folk derivations of various swearwords in the form of 
acronyms. For example, 'for unlawful carnal knowledge'. These are nonesense. 
Swearwords are just words like any others. For some reason, probably to do with 
coyness, some people prefer to invent spurious origins for them.

: : : : : According to the Oxford English Dictionary the word comes from the 
Old English:

: : : : : scite - dung and/or scitte - diarrhœa. 

: : : : I wonder if there's any connection to the Greek skatos, also meaning 
dung?

: : : My OED traces it only as far back as Old Norse and Middle Low German. 
The American Heritage Dictionary, however, refers it to the Proto-Indo-European 
root "skei-," to cut, split, whose descendants include "science" and 
"conscious" (L. "scire," to know, from "to separate one thing from another," 
"discern") and "schedule" and "schizo-" (Gr. "skhizein," to split).

: : It's "Scheiße" in German - very similar indeed.

SHIT – “From the Indo-European root ‘skei,’ ‘to divide,’ comes the Old 
English ‘scitan,’ ‘to defecate,’ that is the ancestor of our word ‘shit.’ ‘To 
shit’ thus means strictly to divide or cut (wastes) from the body.” Page 609. 
“Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins” by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on 
File, New York, 1997).

“…the Old English ‘scitan,’ to defecate, befoul, was spelled ‘shite’ by 
the 14th century and ‘shit’ by the 16th century. Until the late 19th century, 
however, written uses are so few that we don’t know what expressions ‘shit’ 
was used in…” Page 314. “I Hear America Talking” by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von 
Nostrand Reinhold Co., New York, 1976).

“‘Shit,’ as slang for nonsense or lies, is an Americanism probably first 
used by soldiers during the Civil War as a shortening of ‘bullshit,’ another 
Americanism that probably goes back 30 years or more earlier, though it is first 
recorded, in the form of its euphemism ‘bull,’ in about 1850.” Page 609. “
Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins” by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, 
New York, 1997).

“Then in the 1870s, such terms as ‘to fall in the shit’ (to get in trouble) 
and the exclamation ‘shit and corruption!’ were recorded. Also in wide use 
between the 1870s and the 1890s were such seemingly modern terms as ‘shit’ and ‘
bullshit’ meaning ‘nonsense, rubbish, lies’ (chicken shit’ and ‘horseshit’ 
were recorded in the 1930s); ‘the shits,’’ diarrhea’ ‘shit pot’ and ‘shit 
face,’ both referring to a contemptible person (followed by ‘shit head’ 
around 1915); ‘to shit on someone,’ to treat someone badly; and ‘to beat the shit 
out of’ someone. By 1910 ‘shit or bust,’ to do or die, was common and so was ‘
shit or get off the pot,’ a vulgar rephrasing of the old New England ‘fish 
or cut bait,’ meaning to do something or let someone else try, do something or 
give up. By 1918 S.O.L. was a common abbreviation for the older ‘shit out of 
luck.’ In World War I the old rural term ‘shithouse’…became a popular soldier’
s term for latrine…World War II introduced such expressions as ‘shit list,’ 
a black list, a mental list of disliked people; ‘shit on a shingle,’ creamed 
chipped beef on toast; and saw the increasing popularity of all obscenity and 
scatology, including ‘shit heel’ for a contemptible person…” Page 314-315. “
I Hear America Talking” by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von Nostrand Reinhold Co., New 
York, 1976).

“There was such a fantastic increase in the use of ‘f**k,’ ‘screw’ and ‘
shit’ during World War II that it almost seemed no serviceman could complete a 
sentence without using one of them. This armed forces use and acceptance of 
these words spread to many segments of the population during and after the war, 
helped by veterans bringing their vocabulary to college campuses, a wartime and 
postwar lessening of social restrictions, increasing social mobility, new 
concepts of free speech, the ‘sexual revolution’ of the 1950s and 60s, and the 
Women’s Liberation movement since the late 1960s.” Page 158. “I Hear America 
Talking” by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von Nostrand Reinhold Co., New York, 1976).


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:20:35 2003
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:20:35 EDT
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.212035.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, I apologize - I copied the entry onto notepad and pasted it but it didn't
work. I'll ask Barry to send it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:36:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:36:32 EDT
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.213632.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was searching the Ancestry.com newspapers for "Fluky" and "Chicago" and
"mustard" and this nice "Flappers' Dictionary" came up.


   14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
pg. 4?, col. 4:
OFFICE CAT
BY JUNIUS
COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
   _The Flappers' Dictionary._
Shifter:  A Grafter.
Lemon-squeezer:  Subway car.
Dipe-ducat:  A subway ticket.
Snugglepup:  A young man who attends petting parties.
Petting Party:  A party devoted to hugging.
Fire-Alarm:  A divorce woman.
Police Dog:  Young man to whom one is engaged.
Cuddie-cootie:  Young man who takes girl riding on a bus or in a Ford.
Stander:  Victim of a female grafter.
Slat:  A young man.
Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
Cake-basket:  A limousine.
Dimbox:  A taxicab.
Dropping the Pilot:  Getting a divorce.
Noodle juice:  Tea.  (Not in RHHDAS?--ed.)
Dogs:  Feet.
Dog Kennels:  Pair of Shoes.
Cake-eater:  Harmless lounge-lizard.
Lounge-Lizard:  An expert gent on the sofa; a society man.
Oil Can:  Unsophisticated young man.
Flat-wheeler:  One who is stingy or broke.
Crape-hanger:  A reformer.
Wheeping Willow:  Same as crape hanger.
Nosebaggery:  A restaurant.  (Not in RHHDAS, but it has "nosebag" from
1873--ed.)
Finale-hopper:  Young man who arrives after everything is paid for.
Nut-cracker:  Policeman's nightstick.
Stilts:  Legs.
Boob-tickler:  Flapper who has to entertain her father's customers from out
of town.
Monologuist:  Young man  who hates to talk about himself.
Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
Hates:  Loves.
Obituary notice:  Dunning letter.
Face Stretcher:  Old maid who tries to look young.
Apple sauce:  Flattery.
Necker:  Young man who holds flapper's check to his neck in dancing.
Corn-shredder:  Young man who dances on his partner's feet.
Dumbell:  A dumb guy.
Dumdora:  A dumb girl.
Lalapazazer:  A good sport.
Whangdoodle:  Jazz band music.
Edisoned:  Being asked a lot of questions.
Father Time:  Any man over 30 years of age.
Pillow Case:  Young man who is full of feathers.
Feathers:  Light conversation.
Rock of Ages:  Any woman over 30 years of age.
Strike breaker:  Young woman who goes with her friend's steady while there is
a coolness.
Show case:  Rich man's wife with her jewels.
Hen coop:  A beauty parlor.
Mad money:  Money she takes along to pay carfare home in case of a row.
Airdale:  A Homely man.
Bean picker:  One who patches up trouble and picks up spilled beans.
Cancelled stamp:  A wall flower.
Walk in:  Young man who goes to party without being invited.
Mustard Plaster:  Unwelcome guy who sticks around.
Sod-buster:  An undertaker.
Smith Brothers:  Guys who never cough up.
Blushing Violet:  A publicity hound.
Cellar-smeller:  Prohibition enforcement officer.
Umbrella:  Young man any girl can borrow for an evening.
Johnnie Walker:  Guy who never hires a cab.
Orchid:  Anything that is expensive.
His blue serge:  His sweetheart.
Hand cuff:  Engagement ring.
Eye-opener:  A marriage.
Embalmer:  A bootlegger.
Fire-extingujisher:  A chaperone.
Whiskbroom:  Any man who wears whiskers.
Crubber:  One who always borrows cigarettes.
Fluky:  Funny, odd, peculiar, different.
Barneymugging:  Love making.
Munitions:  Face Powder and rouge.
Trotzky:  Old lady white mustache and chin whiskers.
Absent treatment:  Dancing with bashful partner.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:46:46 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:46:46 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309271753580.3769-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.214646.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 05:59:17PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?

Jeez, tons, going back at least to 1934 just among the files that I have
available. Pre-1984 cites include such notables as Allen Ginsberg (in
many different sources), Iceberg Slim, John Le Carre, etc.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 03:37:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:37:39 EDT
Subject: Canned Willie (1908 "Slang of the Sailor")
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.233739.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was looking through Ancestry.com for "canned willie."  This entire
article is worth reading.


   24 October 1908, DENTON JOURNAL (Denton, Maryland), pg. 1, col. 7:

_SLANG OF THE SAILOR_

_The Lingo That Is Used by Uncle_
   _Sam's Bluejackets._

_MANY QUAINT EXPRESSIONS._

_The Man-of-war's Man May Be a_
   _"Snowdigger" or a "Sloper," but He_
   _Uses the Language of Every Other_
   _Sailor._

   There is a language that is neither English nor American, down east nore
southern, western nor Yankee.  It is just sailors' lingo.
   No matter what part of the country may be the birthplace of a bluejacket
or what his language at home, sooner or later he uses the language of every
other sailor.
   To the civilian a conversation between two bluejackets about his life on
shipboard is hardly intelligible.  The other day on the water front two sailors
were overheard talking, says the San Francisco Bulletin.
   "Oh, he's nothing but a beach comber.  He was run up for breaking it once
and got sent to the pie wagon," said one of them.
   "I heard he got six months and a bob before he come here," replied the
other.
   A small boy standing near asked what all those things meant.  The sailors
were in a good humor and explained.
   "'Beach comber,' lad?  Why, that's a fellow who hangs around a saloon
ashore and never wants to work.  'Breaking it' is staying overtime on shore, and
'run up' is brought to the mast for offenses.  The 'pie wagon' is the place
where they put prisoners, and 'six months and a bob' is sentenced to six months
in prison and given a dishonorable discharge."
   There are many other terms and expressions that do not show their meaning
on the surface.
   A "rookie" is a recruit.  A man who "ships over" enlists again.  A man who
is on the report for mast call is "down for a chance."  Canned beef is known
as "canned Willie," and a bottle of liquor is a "dog."  All things lost on
shipboard are put in a room called the "lucky bag."  An honorable discharge is "a
big ticket," and desertion by a sailor is "jumped."  When the mail arrives on
board and is ready for distribution "mailo" is the cry which carries the
news.  A ship's carpenter is called "chips," a coppersmith "coppers," a blacksmith
"blacky" and the chief of  the engineering department "the chief."
   When a ship is traveling at sea it is "seagoing," and if it hurries it is
"making knots."  A prison on shore is a "stone frigate."  When a man is
disrated to a lower rating he is "busted;" when he deserts and voluntarily gives
himself  up within a period of six months he is a straggler; when he is sitting
next the dealer in a friendly game of "draw" he is "under the gun;" when he is
continually quoting the naval regulations he has "swallowed the blue book,"
and when he thinks he knows more about the blue book than the captain he is a
"sea lawyer."
   "Pipe down" means in American slang "shut up."  "Shove off, Jack," is a
hint to move on.  When a man is dishonorably discharged he gets a "straight
kick."  A sailor who draws more pay "draws more water."  One who talks  too much
"blows off at a low pressure."
   Wednesday afternoon, when the crew overhaul their clothing, is "rope yard
Sunday."  Any part of the United States is called "God's country," and the man
from the eastern coast is a "snowdigger," while his brother tar from the west
is called "sloper."  The duty of calling the men in the morning falls to the
master at arms, and he says "show a leg" or "rise up and shine."  When a man
has had no night watch and gets up in the morning with a good appetite it is
"all night in and beans for breakfast."
   One of the more familiar sea terms is "caught a crab," meaning caught an
oar in the water.  When a sailor has several enlistments to his credit he is
called "a sea dog" or "an old salt."
   A gentle hint from one sailor to another that he does not believe
something which is being told to him is "tell it to a marine."  To re-enlist is to
"slip over," and when more than half the enlistment is in a sailor is "going
downhill."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 05:10:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:10:23 EDT
Subject: F (Fail) = N (Nearly)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.011023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For the OED, which is revising the letter "N" entries.
   Fail?  There's no such word as "fail."  Why, I don't even know the meaning
of the word "fail."


   27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, cols. 3-4:
      _Rue, Britannia_
   IN Britain, where the kinder, gentler approach to education holds sway,
students sitting the nationwide examinations in English, math and science will
no longer be permitted to fail.  As of this year's exams, the previous grade of
"F" for "fail" will be replaced by "N" for "nearly."  Similarly, individual
answers in the math exam are no longer to ge graded as correct or incorrect,
but as "credit-worthy" or "not credit-worthy."
   Pressed by a reporter, the spokeman for the government's Qualifications
and Curriculum Authority allowed that, yes, "not credit-worthy" would then mean
"wrong."  He left the impression, though, that this hurtful truth would be
kept hidden from students.
   --_The editors of National Review, writing in the Ocr. `3 issue_.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 06:15:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:15:20 EDT
Subject: Root Beer Float, Chop Suey Sundae (1906)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.021520.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1915 for "ice cream float."  "Float" is not mentioned at all in
John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   "Chop Suey Sundae" was one of the more popular of the soda fountain treats
in the early 1900s.  It's perhaps useful for the word study of "chop suey."


   7 June 1906, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 5?, col. 6:
      _New Drinks at Our Fountain_
(...)
      _A Few of the New Ones:_
_Chop Suey Sundae, 5c._
   A great one.  Why not come and see just what it is?  Immensely popular all
last week.
_Trenton Trilby, Delicious, 5c._
   Another new to this city.  Ger acquainted with Trilby.
_Root Beer Float, 5c._
   The name will give you some idea of it, but it takes a taste to give you
full apreciation.
_Tutti-Frutti Ice Cream Soda, 5c._
   This week's new offering.
 (...)
Philadelphia Grocery Co.

   3 August 1909, EVENING NEWS (Ada, Oklahoma), pg. 1, col. 6:
   Root Beer Float
"Ramsey's"


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 28 12:45:05 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:45:05 -0400
Subject: "Size Doesn't Matter"
In-Reply-To: <200309280146.h8S1klw17972@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.084505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Tom, Barry, Jonathon, Joanne, etc.:
The earliest occurrence in Nexis I can readily find for the sexual meaning
of "size doesn't matter" is dated 1989.  Can anyone supply earlier usage
of this?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 28 13:27:05 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:27:05 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309280842470.26548-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.092705.0400.>

Found the following. Despite the questionable nature of the journal, it's an
excellent history of the origin of "Murphy's Law."

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/murphy0.html


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Sep 28 19:02:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:02:56 -0500
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.140256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.

2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
    "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."

Gerald Cohen

-----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
 14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
pg. 4?, col. 4:
OFFICE CAT
BY JUNIUS
COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
   _The Flappers' Dictionary._
...
Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
...
Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
...


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 28 20:07:50 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:07:50 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <3B5C402402A66D4CB0E65C20AFC01847436623@umr-mail3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.160750.0400.>

 
> Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I 
> don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's 
> Dictionary of Slang_.

Perhaps it's a variant of "to blow."


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:04:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:04:22 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.180422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
     Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
    So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
style...........89 cents.

What do you make of that?
SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
>
> 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated
column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
[Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly
last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
>     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
>  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> pg. 4?, col. 4:
> OFFICE CAT
> BY JUNIUS
> COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
>    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> ...
> Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> ...
> Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> ...
>


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:09:50 2003
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:09:50 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.180950.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:07:50 -0400 Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> writes:
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I
> > don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's
> > Dictionary of Slang_.
>
> Perhaps it's a variant of "to blow."

Could it relate to the military slang "hat up" (c. mid-60s)?  When you
went outside, regulations required you to be "covered", i.e., to have a
hat on. Thus "hat up" meant to leave.

So maybe ...

D


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:51:55 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:51:55 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.185155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A further note about the 1922 "flapper dictionary."

It must have been an actual book as I can find cites in multiple newspapers
from 1922, using ancestry.com, citing words and their meanings from a
"flapper dictionary."

Latest one of interest, though not an antedating, was from the Eyria(OH)
Chronicle Telegram.

Crasher:  An uninvited guest.

HDAS has the same meaning only from 1921(Variety).

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
> Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
>      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
>     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
> style...........89 cents.
>
> What do you make of that?
> SC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see
this
> term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> >
> > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's
syndicated
> column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g.
in
> St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
> the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
> [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment
Weekly
> last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
> her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to
Huffington].
> >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
> > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > OFFICE CAT
> > BY JUNIUS
> > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > ...
> > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > ...
> > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > ...
> >
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 23:30:46 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:30:46 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): An antedating: "bee's
 ankles"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.193046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More from the Elyria(OH) cite for "flapper dictionary."(1922)

       The bee's ankles:  All right, very good.

(Wow!)  HDAS has "Bee's knees" from 1923.  Guess the phrase was moving 'up'
in the world from its start.

Also, perhaps another antedating:

              The Elyria paper has "Slummers:  Girls who
               attend studio parties."

I doubt that they were there for philanthropic or charitable purposes.  So
this may be an antedating.  I'll leave it to Jesse to figure out.






----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> A further note about the 1922 "flapper dictionary."
>
> It must have been an actual book as I can find cites in multiple
newspapers
> from 1922, using ancestry.com, citing words and their meanings from a
> "flapper dictionary."
>
> Latest one of interest, though not an antedating, was from the Eyria(OH)
> Chronicle Telegram.
>
> Crasher:  An uninvited guest.
>
> HDAS has the same meaning only from 1921(Variety).
>
> SC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com,
the
> > Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
> >      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
> >     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
> > style...........89 cents.
> >
> > What do you make of that?
> > SC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> > To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> > go);"sweetie"
> >
> >
> > > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see
> this
> > term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> > >
> > > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's
> syndicated
> > column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g.
> in
> > St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington
in
> > the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
> > [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment
> Weekly
> > last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and
burying
> > her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to
> Huffington].
> > >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> > >
> > > Gerald Cohen
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> > >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville,
Illinois),
> > > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > > OFFICE CAT
> > > BY JUNIUS
> > > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> > >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > > ...
> > > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > > ...
> > > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > > ...
> > >
> >
>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Sep 29 00:48:19 2003
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:48:19 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <001901c3860c$79d15f80$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.204819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not really sure what such a suit would look like, but my oldest brother
(b. 1927) was photographed at 4 or so in a suit jacket, short pants, and
blousy white shirt with a big bow tie.  This could be at least close to the
intended "look."

At 06:04 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
>Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
>      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
>     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
>style...........89 cents.
>
>What do you make of that?
>SC
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
>go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
>term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> >
> > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated
>column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in
>St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
>the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
>[Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly
>last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
>her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
> >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
> > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > OFFICE CAT
> > BY JUNIUS
> > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > ...
> > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > ...
> > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > ...
> >


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep 29 02:43:50 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:43:50 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "bees knees" (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.224350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just so I do it officially, from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, April 28,
1922, p.17, column 4.   From a column titled "Flapper Dictionary"--

     BEES KNEES---Peachy, very nice.  Sometimes known as "The
     Berries."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 07:08:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:08:43 EDT
Subject: Dorf (1967); Drug His Feet
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.030843.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DORF

   The RHHDAS has 1975 for "dorf," from "Univ. Tenn. student."  I'm searching
Ancestry for teen slang.


   25 April 1967, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 10?, col. 4:
_Lynda Bird Johnson gives_
_glossary of hip new slang_
   Know what it means to "seek the sheets?"  Are you a "dorf?"  What's a
"closet case?"  Who's an "animal?"  Like "straight skinny?"  Have you ever "tubed
a test?"
   These, good buddies, are examples of contemporary college jargon according
to Lynda Bird Johnson, elder daughter of the president.
   In an article in the current issue of McCall's magazine Miss Johnson
provides a 16-(illegilbe--ed.) phrase glossary of campus slang for parents who find
it difficult to communicate with their children.
   For your info:  seek the sheets means to crawl in bed, go to sleep; a dorf
is a clod, nerd--an inept or unpleasant person; a closet case is a friend,
usually someone of the opposite sex, whom you don't want someone else to meet.
   An animal? that's an athlete or someone who looks muscle-bound.  Straight
skinny? the plain truth.  Tube a test? do poorly on an exam.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DRUG HIS FEET

   During the Jets Cowboys game on Sunday, from tv announcer Dick Stockton:

   "He dragged his feet.  I can't say drug, because that's not a word."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 07:37:12 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:37:12 EDT
Subject: Gobo, Oscar, Canaries, Baffle Blankets (1931)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.033712.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The RHHDAS has "canary" from 1937-41 Mencken AMERICAN LANGUAGE.
Obviously, Lighter didn't see this publication.  It's interesting, perhaps, also for
"Oscar."


   2 January 1931, HELENA INDEPENDENT (Helena, Montana), pg. 2, col. 5:
_LANGUAGE OF ITS_
_OWN GROWING UP_
_IN MOVIE WORLD_
      By ROBIN COONS
   Hollywood, Calif., Jan. 1.--(AP_--"The baby is lost but doesn't want
mother, and apples and dollies alike are subjects of indifference to it."
   You probably won't hear any movie technicians uttering a sentence like
that, but if you linger around a busy talkie set in a studio here you'll
certainly hear exclamations quite as puzzling--all now officially sanctioned by the
dignified Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, through its technical
bureau which today issued a "selected glossary for the motion picture
technician."
   The sentence given above, by the way, if utter nonsense, is still
fundamentally true.
   For the glossary reveals "baby" as a "small spotlight, arc or
incandescent;" "lost" is colloquial for "not functioning;" and "mother" is the impression
of the sound record matrix obtained by electroplating.  "Apple" is colloquial
for audio-frequency vacuum tube, and a "dolly" is any small rolling
platform--often used to permit or recede from a scene being photographed.
      _New Language_
   The new compilation is complete with its list of technical terms such as
"aeolight," "H and D curve" and "potentiometer"--we won't go into those--but
includes also the picturesque slang and colloquialism of the sets.  For
instance:
   _Baffle Blankets_--Felt, muslin-covered sheets hung about a set to absorb
sound.
   _Bug_--An insect that flies across the set during a take, usually spoiling
the scene.
   _Butterlfy_--SIlk cloth on frame used to soft light when making exterior
scenes.
   _Canaries_--Unidentified, high frequency noises in the recording system.
   _Dynamite_--An open connection box into which the studio lamps are
plugged--dangerous if stepped on.
   _Eagle_--Same as "bug"--but also (probably from the golf term) "a perfect
photographic take."
   _Gaffer_--Electrician in charge of a group of electrical workers.
   _Gobo_--Portable wall covered with sound-absorbing material, not intended
to be photographed.
   _High Hat--A very low camera stand.
   _Mike Stew_--Undesired sounds heard by the sound "mixer."  (The mixer's
the high mogul of recording, who sits in his sound-proof booth away from the set
and twists dials and screws to assure perfect recording.
   _Oscar_--Slang for oscillations.
   _Sing_--Undesirable high-frequency oscillations in the recording circuit.
   _Spider_--Portable electric switch and contact.
   _Whiskers_--A type of pulsation of intensity in reproduced sound.  Other
types are known as "flutters" and "gargles."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 09:41:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:41:00 EDT
Subject: Eagle (1921)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.054100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1922 for "eagle."
   I'm having a little trouble with "bogey"--too many questionable hits.
Merriam-Webster has 1948.


   24 June 1921, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 8, col. 8:
   They were all square at the 27th, when Jack got an eagle 3 while the
Louisville golfer floundered about and took a 6.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Sep 29 16:23:27 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:23:27 -0400
Subject: "Size Doesn't Matter"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309280842470.26548-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.122327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

We don't have anything earlier than OED does for "shit or get off
the pot."  Here's what I could find for "size doesn't matter" -- though
I'm not sure it's the meaning you're after:

  Because of her|diminutiveness, Janet bore the|brunt of many
jokes.  At the U.S. Long Course Nationals in August 1985, Tiffany
Cohen, a double gold medalist at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics
and the reigning U.S. dis-tance swimmer at the time,|snickered
when Janet hoisted herself out of a warmup pool. The 5'9", 139-
pound Cohen towered over the scrawny 5'1", 87-pound|upstart.
"That made me so mad," Evans says.  "I never saw myself as
being small.  Size doesn't matter as long as you can get to the end
of the pool faster than everybody else." "Meet a Small Wonder"

143 Jill Lieber SPORTS ILLUSTRATED  Vol. 69  No. 12
September 14, 1988

Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 16:59:03 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:59:03 -0400
Subject: New Michael Quinion Book
In-Reply-To: <3F78243F.2665.23981EEA@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.125903.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought people on this
list would be interested that Library Journal has a very favorable review
of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and Isms: A Dictionary of Word
Beginnings and Endings.  The review concludes: "Even if you think you know
the English language, you will learn a thing or two from this little
volume.  Easy to use, small enough to carry around, and chockfull of
useful information, this book is for anyone who truly loves language."

Congratulations, Michael!

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Sep 29 16:21:07 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:21:07 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "bees knees" (1922)
In-Reply-To: <003301c38633$848b94a0$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.122107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:43 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Just so I do it officially, from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, April 28,
>1922, p.17, column 4.   From a column titled "Flapper Dictionary"--
>
>      BEES KNEES---Peachy, very nice.  Sometimes known as "The
>      Berries."

And don't forget "the cat's meow"--all in my mother's (b. 1906)
lexicon.  She even wore a flapper-style dress, with a big bowtie, at her
wedding.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 18:40:32 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:40:32 -0400
Subject: another brand-newie:  "cruciflicks"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.144032.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No earlier hits on Nexis, or on google (except for one obscure one
turned up in the latter that I can't figure out).  It probably won't
have as long as a shelf life as "Iraqification", partly because it's
a plural with no singular.  But it is cute, I have to admit.

larry


==================================

The New York Times
  September 29, 2003, Monday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section E; Page 1; Column 1; The Arts/Cultural Desk

  LENGTH: 1133 words

  HEADLINE: Appeareth St. John, Quietly, Cautiously

  BYLINE:  By DANIEL J. WAKIN

  BODY:
  And before there was Mel, there was Garth.

  A movie about the life of Jesus has slipped in beneath the radar,
opening in four cities on Friday ahead of Mel Gibson's "Passion,"
which has been the subject of
  intense debate over its alleged anti-Semitism.

  The movie is "The Gospel of John," which was produced by the
Canadian impresario Garth H. Drabinsky and financed by a small
"faith-based media company"
  called Bible Visual International Inc. The director is Philip
Saville, a television veteran who has also made features, including
"Stop the World -- I Want to Get
  Off" (1966) and "Metroland" (1997). The best known member of the
relatively obscure cast is Christopher Plummer, who narrates.

  The Gibson production, which has no distributor, has been attacked
by a committee of Bible scholars who read a version of the script and
said it presented Jews
  as bloodthirsty "Christ killers." Mr. Gibson, who is affiliated with
a splinter Catholic group that rejects the modern papacy, has
defended the film as a
  reverential depiction of Jesus' final hours and rejects any
anti-Semitic intent.

  "The Gospel of John," while well received at the Toronto Film
Festival earlier this month, has entered the scene more quietly and
will not be released in New
  York or Los Angeles.

  Its makers have also taken pains to inoculate themselves against the
kind of criticism leveled at Mr. Gibson. They hired a team of
religious consultants,
  including two Jews, added an explanatory preamble and used a
translation of the Bible that they hoped would avoid problems. The
film's promoters point out
  that Mr. Drabinsky is Jewish, and note that by filming the Gospel in
its entirety they can hardly be blamed for writing anti-Semitic
material.

  Both "cruciflicks" (Mr. Saville's word) claim to be scrupulously
faithful to the life of Jesus, but there are significant differences.
"The Passion" screenplay is
  original, based on the Gospels and focuses on Jesus' final 12 hours.
The characters speak Aramaic and Latin. "The Gospel of John," on the
other hand, follows
  the scriptural text to the letter in a mix of British- and
American-accented English. "Every single word is in there," Mr.
Saville said by telephone from London.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 20:31:08 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:31:08 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1921)
In-Reply-To: <b8.486392b4.2ca9582c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.163108.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    OED has 1922 for "eagle."
>
>    24 June 1921, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 8, col. 8:
>    They were all square at the 27th, when Jack got an eagle 3 while the
> Louisville golfer floundered about and took a 6.

Here's a further antedating:

1917 _New York Times_ 16 Sept. S6  [Nicholls] was down in par 4 at the
first, had an eagle 3 at the long second [etc.]

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 21:43:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:43:32 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1917)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.174332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, and there's this one, also from ProQuest.  I was away from the ProQuest database, and it went down again today.  Still no updated material.



   BEATS 70 AT GOLF IN THREE TRIPS OF LINKS
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1917. p. 30 (1 page):
   The class of the golf played is indicated by the fact that the 635-yard sixteenth hole, probably the longest in the world, and with a par of six, was played twice in eagle 4's and the third time in birdie five.


From lvonschn at WISC.EDU  Mon Sep 29 21:35:52 2003
From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:35:52 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.163552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
From: RonButters at AOL.COM
Subject: ADS hotel rates
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.

I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
(including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have
them
cheaper (AAA rate).>>



Dear Ron and all,

As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.  What you can't see
from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.  The LSA has
guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
hotel.  If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.  So if
attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel but
through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.  Which
in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.  Organizations
all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
normal conference sign-up procedures.  Please give this a thought before
trying an alternative.

Thanks.

Luanne v S
(speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 22:07:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:07:46 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.180746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "birdie" from 1921?
   FWIW:  There's a photo in today's newspaper of President George W. Bush playing golf.


   Birdie Handicap at Plainfield.
Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1911. p. C7 (1 page):
   PLAINFIELD, N. J., July 8.--Something new in golf was tried to-day at the Plainfield Country Club.  It was called a "Birdie Handicap."  Each player took his match play handicap and every hole in bogie counted 1 point, every one on par 2 points, and every hole below par 3 points.


   N.Y.A.C. WINS AT HOCKEY.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 28, 1912. p. 9 (1 page):
(Last sport article--ed.)
_BALTUSROL GOLF TOURNEY._
_Theodore H. Keer Leads Field In_
   _Two Cup Contest._
   More than seventy-five members of the Baltusrol Golf Club took part in the week-end competition which began on Saturday and continued until yesterday.  Theodore H. Keer led the field in both the Secretary's and Artic Cup contest, finishing only one down to bogey in the first named.
(...)
   Cranberry at present leads in the ringer competition with 12 "birdies."


   WOMEN'S GOLF BRINGS OUT NEW WINNERS
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1912. p. 11 (1 page):
   She won the "birdie" prize by getting the second, eighth, and eleventh holes under par, but two eighths and a seven were instances of other things happening.


       YALE ON LAKE CARNEGIE.
Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 24, 1913. p. 9 (1 page) :
(It's in a following sports story.  Yale can't take credit for everything--ed.)
   A prize was also offered for the greatest number of "birdies," or holes made in strokes less than bogey.


   Sargent and McLeod Qualify For Open Golf Championship
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1914. p. 8 (1 page):
   His putting was only fair, but hole after hole he got what the professionals call a "birdie" so that extraordinary work on the greens was not required to better par figures, which are 146 for a double round.


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Sep 29 22:27:59 2003
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:27:59 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.172759.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes BUT,
Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why can't they
go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in nearby
hotels.

I'm not involved here, but all too often no one price checks these
convention hotels.  You always hear, "They always treat us nice there"  "It
was a good price last year", or the year before or what ever. Sometimes the
society's travel agent is lazy or has a special relationship with certain
hotels.

In this age of price cutting net sites it doesn't seem unreasonable to be
more aggressive when booking a meeting.

>
>
> Dear Ron and all,
>
> As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.  What you can't see
> from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.  The LSA has
> guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
> hotel.  If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.  So if
> attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel
but
> through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.  Which
> in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.  Organizations
> all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
> normal conference sign-up procedures.  Please give this a thought before
> trying an alternative.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Luanne v S
> (speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Sep 29 22:45:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:45:30 -0700
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <003e01c386d8$f0a7e9e0$c41f4b3f@paulz>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.154530.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:27 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> Yes BUT,
> Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why
> can't they
> go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in
> nearby
> hotels.

but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.

arnold


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep 29 23:36:49 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:36:49 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <3B5C402402A66D4CB0E65C20AFC01847436623@umr-mail3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.193649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
>term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.

This usage appears only in flapper-dictionaries. (^_^)

Assuming that it's not an error (typographical or otherwise) which was
copied by various newspapers etc., my best speculation is that this was
originally a military usage, with verb "blouse" meaning "put on one's
blouse [and {get ready to} go out]" (where of course "blouse" was and is
the uniform jacket worn by a US serviceman). This would be analogous to the
'intransitive' verb "suit [up]" = "put on one's suit" etc.

One of the flapper-dictionaries on the Web shows "blouse" = "leave" or so
distinguished from "blow [the joint]" = "blouse quickly" or so. FWLIW.

-- Doug Wilson


From lvonschn at WISC.EDU  Mon Sep 29 23:44:27 2003
From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:44:27 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <0HLZ00HI1Z86IC@smtp1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.184427.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:45 PM 9/29/03 -0700, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: ADS/LSA hotel rates
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:27 PM, paulzjoh wrote:
>
> > Yes BUT,
> > Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why
> > can't they
> > go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in
> > nearby
> > hotels.
>
>but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
>that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
>drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
>for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.
>
>arnold

Thanks, Arnold.

The sponsoring group does negotiate the best price it can, for a conference
several years down the road.  Once you have a contract you can't pull out
of it or change it without penalty.  And would the nearby hotels have
enough rooms to accommodate all conference attendees?  Would they still
have meeting rooms available?  At this point the nearby hotels have also
made reservations with other clients so a large block of rooms is very
unlikely to be available, which is why conference planners, especially for
large conferences, must plan several years in advance, and in negotiating
they must give a figure for room nights, based on their experience with
past conferences.  If they don't meet the room night figure, they owe the
hotel.  There is a lot that goes into these negotiations.  This hotel
probably offered the best prices for the group at the time.  I can assure
you that LSA did not just take the first offer they received; they
conferred with these other hotels you are referring to, and probably with
ones in other east coast cities.  LSA probably also talked to similar
organizations to learn about their experiences in holding meetings in the
hotels LSA was considering, in order to give you the best conference
experience for your money.

You can't compare prices for a room or two (which don't include meeting
rooms and other services) with prices for a large block of rooms, which do
include meeting rooms and many other services.

Luanne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 00:48:05 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:48:05 -0400
Subject: Guatemaltecan Cookery (1887): Tostadas, Chile Relleno
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.204805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GUATEMALA:
THE LAND OF THE QUETZAL
by William T. Brigham
New York:  Charles Scribner's Sons
1887
Gainesville: University of Florida Press:
1965 reprint

   Guatamala was one of the first places visited on the grand Popik world tour (in 1998).  I went for the Mayan temples.  The cuisine wasn't a highlight.  As a joke/experience/safety measure, I "dined" at the Guatemala City Chuck E. Cheese.
   OED has only two citations from this book (for "dante" and "sapota").
   I'll get to Lafacadio Hearn's TWO YEARS IN THE FRENCH WEST INDIES (1890) in a little bit.  It has a large food section.  Again, OED has only two cites from it ("Madras" and "Martiniquais").


Pg. 86:  A Boston boy who has a fine coffee estate in the neighborhood came in as we were at dinner and initiated us into the mystery of _tortillas tostadas_.  Certainly by toasting, the tough, clammy, cold tortilla is made even better than new.

Pg. 185:  Almost worn out with sight-seeing, we stopped at a restaurant near by, and with our lunch had some native _cerveza negra_,--an unpleasant beer brewed from molasses.

Pg. 314:  Guatemaltecan cookery, although simplicity itself in its instalment, is excellent and wholesome,--none of the vile saleratus-bread, tough doughnuts, and clammy pies (I have great respect for a good tart) which are the curse of the country cooking of New England.  But let the comida consist of (Pg. 315) only tortillas, frijoles, and huevos; these staples are always well cooked.

Pg. 366:  Tomatoes grow everywhere, and are of great importance in the kitchen, next to the universal chile (_Capsicum annuum_).  Peppers of other kinds are used, especially a large green one which is stuffed with minced meat coated with egg and crumbs and served as _Chile relleno_.  Pawpaws (_Carica papaya_) are common (a small wild species is abundant on the Pacific coast); and the fruit, as large as a cantaloupe, and filled with pungent seeds like those of the tropaeolum, is eaten raw, or cooked in tarts.  Its juice is of the greates use in making tough meat tender.  The akee (_Blighia sapida_) is much like a custard when cooked.
   The avocado (_Persea gratissima_) is one of the fruits that have many names.  In Peru it is called _palta_, and the Mexican _ahuacatl_ was twisted by the Spaniards into _aguacate_ and _avocado_, and the English corrupted this last into alligator-pear.
   (OED has 1906 for "relleno."  OED 1993 ADDITIONS has 1929 for "chile rellenos"--ed.)

Pg. 421 (APPENDIX):  GUATEMALTECAN COOKERY.
   I do not speak of the tables of the upper classes, where variety is found in Guatemala as well as elsewhere; but of the common cookery that a stranger finds in travelling, it may truly be said that it has not a national character, nor does justice to the abundant material at hand.  What there is of it is, however, good; a fresh tortilla is better than the cakes of the Northern backwoods, and the wheaten bread made by the _panadero_ of the village is exceedingly palatable.  Frijoles, or beans, the most popular general dish, are always stewed over an open fire, and are much better than the baked beans of New England.  Eggs are always present, either fried, poached, or baked in the shell (_huevos tibios_); when fried, always seasoned with tomato, chillis, and vinegar.  _Salchichas_, or sausages, fried in lard, with plenty of garlic; _gigote_, or hashed meat; _higate_, a potage made of figs, pork, fowl, sugar, ginger, cinnamon and allspice, (Pg. 422--ed.) bread, soup, and innumerable ollas,--are present as solid dishes, the meats generally being of poor quality.  Besides the vegetables of Northern gardens, there are _chiotes_, palm-cabbage, and, best of all, plantain.  For_verduras_, or greens, there are many plants,--none, however, better than spinach or dandelions; and the _ensaladas_ are not remarkable.  In the shore region one can have the most delicious turtle-steak, white and tender as veal, iguanas fricasseed,--perhaps the best native dish,--javia-steaks, armadillo (which I am sorry to say I have not eaten), and fish of many kinds and flavors.
   I have spoken of the bad coffees served as "essencia," but have not said enough about the chocolate, which I never found carelessly prepared.  Perhaps the best is prepared entirely ar home; that is, the beans of cacao are carefully roasted, as coffee might be, and the shells removed by rubbing in the hands.  The metatle then serves to crush the oily mass, as corn is prepared in tortilla-making; sugar is added, and enough cinnamon or vanilla to flavor the crushed cacao, which becomes pasty by grinding, and may be run into moulds, or simply dropped on some cool surface to harden.  These chocolate-drops are dissolved in boiling milk as wanted, and the whole churned to a froth.  Prepared in this way, chocolate is much better than the cake chocolate of the manufacturers.  An ancient recipe was much more complicated than this, and although I have never tried it myself, I venture to give it to my readers.  It is this: "One hundred cacaos,--treating them as has been described,--two pods of chilli, a handful or anis and orjevala, two of mesachasil or vanilla (this may be replaced by six roses of Alexandria, powdered), two drams of cinnamon, a dozen each of almonds and filberts, half a pound of white sugar, and arnotto to color it."  This mixture must of course be whipped to a froth.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 01:46:34 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:46:34 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1917)
In-Reply-To: <200309292143.h8TLhku08616@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.214634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1917. p. 30 (1
> page):
>    The class of the golf played is indicated by the fact that the
> 635-yard sixteenth hole, probably the longest in the world, and with a
> par of six, was played twice in eagle 4's and the third time in birdie
> five.

Here's a slightly earlier citation:

1917 _N.Y. Times_ 26 Jul. 14  Hagen began the match with an eagle at the
first hole.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Sep 30 01:59:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.215939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

While Joanne may be behind a few words from your pace, no doubt the M-W has
"birdie" well before 1948.  Their cite was for the 'verb'-- not the noun.

Most of your "bogey" cites in your message below{except for that brilliant
find from 1911) mean "normal/average/par" as far as a score goes.  Not
"under par."   It would seem that the game of golf was in a state of flux
about 1910 or so as far as some terms go.

And the OED has 1892 as a cite for "bogey" meaning what we think of today as
"par."

If you knew that already, I apologize.

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"


>    OED has "birdie" from 1921?
>    FWIW:  There's a photo in today's newspaper of President George W. Bush
playing golf.
>
>
>    Birdie Handicap at Plainfield.
> Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1911. p. C7 (1 page):
>    PLAINFIELD, N. J., July 8.--Something new in golf was tried to-day at
the Plainfield Country Club.  It was called a "Birdie Handicap."  Each
player took his match play handicap and every hole in bogie counted 1 point,
every one on par 2 points, and every hole below par 3 points.
>
>
>    N.Y.A.C. WINS AT HOCKEY.
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 28, 1912. p. 9 (1
page):
> (Last sport article--ed.)
> _BALTUSROL GOLF TOURNEY._
> _Theodore H. Keer Leads Field In_
>    _Two Cup Contest._
>    More than seventy-five members of the Baltusrol Golf Club took part in
the week-end competition which began on Saturday and continued until
yesterday.  Theodore H. Keer led the field in both the Secretary's and Artic
Cup contest, finishing only one down to bogey in the first named.
> (...)
>    Cranberry at present leads in the ringer competition with 12 "birdies."
>
>
>    WOMEN'S GOLF BRINGS OUT NEW WINNERS
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1912. p. 11 (1
page):
>    She won the "birdie" prize by getting the second, eighth, and eleventh
holes under par, but two eighths and a seven were instances of other things
happening.
>
>
>        YALE ON LAKE CARNEGIE.
> Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Oct 24, 1913. p. 9 (1 page) :
> (It's in a following sports story.  Yale can't take credit for
everything--ed.)
>    A prize was also offered for the greatest number of "birdies," or holes
made in strokes less than bogey.
>
>
>    Sargent and McLeod Qualify For Open Golf Championship
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1914. p. 8 (1
page):
>    His putting was only fair, but hole after hole he got what the
professionals call a "birdie" so that extraordinary work on the greens was
not required to better par figures, which are 146 for a double round.
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 01:57:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:57:58 -0400
Subject: "Eagle" (Verb)
In-Reply-To: <200309292143.h8TLhku08616@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.215758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED does not have the golf term "eagle" as a verb.  Here's an early
citation:

1934 _Wash. Post_ 26 AUg. M16  McChesney ... eagled the third hole at
Columbia a few weeks ago.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:12:01 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:12:01 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20ADS/LSA=20hotel=20rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.221201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I guess this is a valid point. We did not meet our guarantee at the DSNA 
meeting at Duke this spring, and we did indeed have to pay a penalty, which 
ultimately will be paid for by DSNA members who attend the next meeting of DSNA in 
the form of higher registration fees (since we have no surplus to send ahead to 
the next conference hosts). The chief reason for this, however, was that 
fewer people actually attended than we expected. One always assumes that a certain 
number of people will book rooms at cheaper hotels in the neighborhood.

In the case of LSA/ADS in Boston, though, the fact that the Sheraton would 
price their supposedly discounted rooms higher than the Hilton ACROSS THE STREET 
seems to me to mean that the Sheraton is doing some price gouging. LSA should 
be complaining that the contract is unfair, which it apparently is. I realize 
that the Hilton does not have to furnish meeting rooms, so maybe this is a 
factor in making their prices somewhat lower. Maybe LSA should have given some 
thought to the possible effects of competition from across the street when they 
signed the contract with Sheraton.

In any case, I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as 
Luanne's message seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in 
the past when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different. 
And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston 
because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a few dollars 
in the future.


In a message dated 9/29/03 5:46:24 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes:


> <<Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
> From: RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject: ADS hotel rates
> MIME-version: 1.0
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> 
> According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
> Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.
> 
> I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
> (including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have
> them
> cheaper (AAA rate).>>
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Ron and all,
> 
> As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.  What you can't see
> from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.  The LSA has
> guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
> hotel.  If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.  So if
> attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel but
> through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.  Which
> in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.  Organizations
> all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
> normal conference sign-up procedures.  Please give this a thought before
> trying an alternative.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Luanne v S
> (speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)
> 


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:22:36 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:22:36 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20ADS/LSA=20hotel=20rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.222236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron writes,

> I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as Luanne's message
> seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in the past
> when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different.
> And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston
> because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a few
> dollars in the future.
>
It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the increasing
availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate changes.

It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and hotels. How
it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA, but
we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 03:26:22 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:26:22 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.222622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:45 PM 9/29/03 -0700, you wrote:
>but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
>that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
>drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
>for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.

Speaking in defence of Maggie Reynolds, Executive Director of LSA, whose
work I know, I can assure everyone on this list that the price she
negotiated was the lowest possible one given the conflicting constraints
that have been discussed in the last few messages.  Maggie is always able
to secure excellent prices in expensive markets.  We've stayed at
remarkable hotels (such as the Hyatt Regency in San Francisco) for way
under the rack rate, and it is rare to even break $100.  To get a rate of
$109 for that hotel, in downtown Boston, for several hundred people, is
quite an accomplishment, I assure you.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology

Wayne State University
Department of English,
Wayne State University,
Detroit, MI, 48202
Home:
862 University Place
Grosse Pointe, MI, 48230, USA.

Home telephone:  (313) 417-8406
Linguistics:  (313) 577-8621
C&IT:  (313) 577-1259


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 02:30:08 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:30:08 -0400
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <11b.2892a5b6.2caa4071@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.223008.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>In any case, I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as
>Luanne's message seems to imply. Surely people have opted for
>cheaper hotel rooms in the past when the quality was the same and
>the convenience was no different.
>And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston
>because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up
>a few dollars in the future.
>

Exactly...There are people for whom the $15+ difference, per night,
will make the difference between being able to attend the conference
and not being able to attend. It's really hard to know what other
people's economic realities are (how much, if anything, will you be
reimbursed for lodging at the conference? what's your own personal
budget? etc.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:44:42 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:44:42 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_ADS/LSA_hotel_rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.224442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It is far from true that Sheraton is price-gouging here.  The $109 negotiated rate is extremely competitive, a fraction of Sheraton's normal rate.  The Hilton is a slightly cheaper hotel anyway and apparently is running a promotional rate during a slow time of the year.

        For most people, it will make more sense to stay at the slightly nicer Sheraton, with the convenience of being at the conference hotel.  On the other hand, some people will find the price difference material (and the difference in quality is not).  I see no reason to blame either LSA/ADS, which did quite a good job of negotiating an excellent rate for the hotel and area, or the people who find the price difference material and choose to stay off-site.

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 04:00:21 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:00:21 -0400
Subject: Hearn's "West Indies" (1890)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.000021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TWO YEARS IN THE FRENCH WEST INDIES
by Lafcadio Hearn
New York: Harper & Brothers
1890
Upper Saddle River, NJ: Literature House
1970 reprint  ("Lafacadio" is on the title page--ed.)

   See also:
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/about.cfm?id=biography&AuthorNo=8
Hearn, Lafcadio. La Cuisine Creole, A Collection of Culinary Recipes from Leading Chefs and Noted Creole Housewives, Who Have Made New Orleans Famous for its Cuisine. New Orleans: F.F. Hansell & Bro., Ltd., c1885
   This is the "Feeding America" project of MSU...Is this book online somewhere, such as Project Gutenberg?


Pg. 41:  ...--those are "akras,"--flat yellow-brown cakes, made of pounded codfish, or beans, or both, seasoned with pepper and fried in butter.

Pg. 116:  Here are _christophines_,--great pear-shaped things, white and green, according to kind, with a peel prickly and knobby as the skin of a horned toad; but they stew exquisitely.  And _melongenes_, or egg-plants; and palmiste-pith, and _chadeques_, and _pommes-d'Haiti_,--and roots that at first sight look all alike, but they are not: there are _camanoic_, and _couscous_, and _choux-caraibes_, and _zignames_, and various kinds of _patates_ among them.
   (The earlier OED had 1939 for "melongene."  The OED revision has 1855, then 1907.  I'm the only person to read Lafcadio Hearn in 110 years?  No one ever heard of this book?--ed.)

Pg. 247:  Her strongest refreshment is _mabi,_--a mild, effervescent, and, I think, rather disagreeable, beer made from molasses.
   (OED lists "mabi" in the etymology for "mobbie," but doesn't give a single "mabi" citation--ed.)

Pg. 283:  And at all the river-mouths, during July and August, are caught vast numbers of _titiri_*,--tiny white fish, of which a thousand might be put into one teacup.  They are delicious when served in oil,--infinitely more delicate than the sardine.  Some regard them as a particular species: others believe them to be only the fry of larger fish,--as their periodical appearance and disappearance would seem to indicate.
   (Not in OED.  Titiri is the Goby fish (Sicydium punctatum), according to one Google site--ed.)

Pg. 332:  Said a creole once, in my hearing:--"The gens-de-couleur are just like the _tourouroux_:* one must pick out the females and leave the males alone."
*A sort of land-crab;--the female is selected for food, and, properly cooked, makes a delicious dish;--the male is almost worthless.
   (Not in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 348:
   Cyrillia always prepares something for me on my return from the beach,--either a little pot of fresh cocoa-water, or a _cocoyage_, or a _mabiyage_, or a _bavaroise_.
   The _cocoyage_ I like the best of all.  Cyrillia takes a green cocoa-nut, slices off one side of it so as to open a (Pg. 349--ed.) hole, then pours the opalescent water into a bowl, adds to it a fresh egg, a little Holland gin, and some grated nutmeg and plenty of sugar.  Then she whips up the mixture into effervescence with her _baton-lele_.  The _baton-lele_ is an indispensable article in every creole home: it is a thin stick which is cut from a young tree so as to leave at one end a whorl of branch-stumps sticking out at right angles like spokes;--by twirling the stem betweenthe hands, the stumps whip up the drink in a moment.
   THe _mabiyage_ is less agreeable, but is a popular morning drink among the poorer classes.  It is made with a little white rum and a bottle of the bitter native root-beer called _mabi_.  The taste of _mabi_ I can only describe as that of molasses and water flavored with a little cinchona bark.
   The _bavaroise_ is fresh milk, sugar, and a little Holland gin or rum,--mixed with the _baton-lele_ until a fine thick foam is formed.  After the _cocoyage_, I think it is the best drink one can take in the morning; but very little spirit must be used for any of these mixtures.  It is not intil just before the mid-day meal that one can venture to take a serious stimulant,--_yon to ponch,_--rum and water, sweetened with plenty of sugar or sugar syrup.
   The word _sucre_ is rarely used in Martinique,--considering that sugar is still the chief product;--the word _doux_, "sweet," is commonly substituted for it.  _Doux_ has, however, a larger range of meaning: it may signify syrup, or any sort of sweets,--duplicated into _doudoux_, it means the corossole fruit as well as a sweetheart.

Pg. 350:  When fresh meat is purchased, it is usually to make a stew or _daube_;--(Pg. 351--ed.) probably salt meats are more popular; and native vegetables and manioc flour are preferred to bread.  There are only two popular soups which are peculiar to the creole cuisine,--_calalou_, a gombo soup, almost precisely similar to that of Louisiana; and the _soupe-d'habitant_, or "country soup."  It is made of yams, carrots, bananas, turnips, _choux-caraibes_, pumpkins, salt pork, and pimento, all boiled together;--the salt meat being left out of the composition on Fridays.
   The great staple, the true meat of the population, is salt codfish, which is prepared in a great number of ways.  The most popular and rudest preparation of it is called "Ferocious" (_feroce_); and it is not at all unpalatable.  The codfish is simply fried, and serve3d with vinegar, oil, pimento;--manioc flour and avocados being considered indispensable adjuncts.  As manioc flour forms a part of almost every creole meal, a word of information regarding it will not be out of place here.
   (It's worth reading all of the next 15 pages--ed.)

Pg. 352:  ...---_dleau passe farine_ (more water than manioc flour) is a saying which describes the condition of a very destitute person.  When not served with fish, the flour is occasionally mixed with water and refined molasses (_sirop-battrie_): this preparation, which is very nice, is called _cousscaye_.  There is also a way of boiling it with molasses and milk into a kind of pudding.  This is called _matete_; children are very fond of it.  Both of these names, _cousscaye_ and _matete_, are alleged to be of Carib origin: the art of preparing the flour itself from the manioc root is certainly an inheritance from the Caribs, who bequeathed many singular words to the creole patois of the French West Indies.
   (Neither "cousscaye" nor "matete" is in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 352:  Of all the preparations of codfish with which manioc flour is eaten, I preferred the _lamori-bouilli_,--the fish boiled plain, after having been steeped long enough to remove the excess of salt; and then served with plenty of olive-oil and pimento.  The people who have no home of their own, or at least no place to cook, can buy their foood already prepared from the _machanees lapacotte_, who seem to make a specialty of _macadam_ (codfish stewed with rice) and the other two dishes already referred to.  But in every colored family there are occasional feasts of _lamori-au-laitt_, codfish stewed with milk and potatoes; _lamori-au-grattin_, codfish boned, pounded with toast crumbs, and boiled with butter, onions, and pepper into a mush;--_coubouyon-lamori_, codfish stewed with butter and oil;--_bachamelle_, codfish boned and stewed with potatoes, pimentos, oil, garlic, and butter.
   _Pimento_ is an essential accompaniment to tall these dishes, whether it be cooked or raw: everything is served with plenty of pimento,--_en pile, en pile piment_.
   (The revised OED does not have this "macadam"--ed.)

Pg. 356:  Of all fresh fish, the most popular is the _tonne_, a great blue-gray creature whose flesh is solid as beef; next come in order or preferment the flying-fish (_volants_), which often sell as low as four for a cent;--then the _lambi_, or sea-snail, which has a very dense and nutritious flesh;--then the small whitish fish classed as _sadines_;--then the blue-colored fishes according to price, _couliou_, _balaou_, etc.; lastly, the shark, which sells commonly at two cents a pound.
   (OED does not have "lambi," also called "conch"--ed.)

Pg. 357:  To make a _blaffe_ the fish are cooked in water, and served with pimento, lemon, spices, onions, and garlic; but without oil or butter.  Experience has demonstrated that _coulious_ make the best _blaffe_; and a _blaffe_ is seldom prepared with other fish.

Pg. 357:  THERE are four dishes which are the holiday luxuries of the poor:--_manicou_, _ver-palmiste_, _zandouille_, and _poule-epi-diri_.

Pg. 358:  The _zandouilles_ are delicious sausages made with pig-buff,--and only seen in the market on Sundays.  They cost a franc and a half each; and there are several women who have an established reputation throughout Martinique for their skill in making them.  I have tasted some not less palatable than the famous London "pork-pies."  Those of Lamentin are reputed the best in the island.
   But _poule-epi-diri_ is certainly the most popular dish of all: it is the dearest, as well, and poor people can rarely afford it.  In Louisiana an almost similar dish is called _jimbalaya_: chicken cooked with rice.  The Martiniquais think it such a delicacy that an over-exacting person, or one difficult to satisfy, is reproved with the simple question:--"_Ca ou le nco--poule-epi-diri_?"  (What more do you want, great heavens!--chicken-and-rice?)

Pg. 359:  _Diri-doux_, rice boiled with sugar, is sold in prodigious quantities daily,--especially at the markets, where little heaps of it, rolled in pieces of banana or _cachibou_ leaves, are retailed at a cent each.  _Diri-aulaitt_, a veritable rice-pudding, is also very popular; but it would weary the reader to mention one-tenth of the creole preparations into which rice enters.

Pg. 359:  EVERYBODY eats _akras_; they sell at a cent apiece.  The akra is a small fritter or pancake, which may be made of fifty different things,--among others codfish, titiri, beans, brains, _choux-caraibes_, little black peas (_poix-zie-noue_, "black-eyed peas"), or of crawfish (_akra-crabiche_).  When made of carrots, bananas, chicken, palm-cabbage, etc., and sweetened, they are called _marinades_.


(Gotta go.  NYU is kicking me out at midnight.  Typing mistakes are yours.  More dreary parking tickets all this week--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Sep 30 05:37:13 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:37:13 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.013713.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not an antedating, as HDAS has 1843 for "Black Maria" as a police van,
specifically in Philadelphia.  The next HDAS cite is 1847, also "Black
Maria."

>From ancestry.com,  Republican Compiler(Gettysburg, PA), Sept. 14, 1846.
p.2, col. 1

     "No longer grace can be allowed these indifferent partizans:  after the
stated hour, the committee must wake them, shake them, and if still
indifferent, force them into a carriage, like convicts in 'Black Mariah,'
and drive them to the polls, nolens volens."

This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
Philadelphia.  It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah"
rather than "Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma RYE Ah as I
grew up in the 1950's.

I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early 1800's?

"Wake them,  shake them."  Zounds!  Sounds like Sports Center.

SC


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep 30 07:00:59 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:00:59 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
In-Reply-To: <006301c38714$e83fd920$fd26a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.030059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
>Philadelphia.

George Thompson has presented earlier citations from New York, I believe:
see the "Black Maria" entry at Michael Quinion's site.

>It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah" rather than
>"Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
>pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma RYE Ah as
>I grew up in the 1950's.

Yes, it's generally pronounced like that. I don't know whether this odd
spelling had the same weight back in the day, though.

>I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early 1800's?

I believe it was often or usually "ma RYE ah".

For comparison, MW3 shows such a pronunciation first under "Maria Theresa
dollar": another holdover, I suppose.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 07:34:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:34:03 EDT
Subject: Birdied (verb) (1921)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.033403.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1956??


   13 August 1921, STAR-JOURNAL (Sandusky, Ohio), pg. 10?, col. 5:
 "Do you remember number twelve?
   I should have 'birdied' that,
But just as I was set to putt my
   caddie dropped his hat;..."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 07:50:31 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:50:31 EDT
Subject: USGA on golf, birdie, eagle, bogie, mulligan, skins, links, fore,
 dormie
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.035031.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Birdie" an Atlantic City, NJ coinage?  Maybe Landau could get a plaque 
drive going and ask for a country club discount?...Again, my 1911 "birdie" 
citation was from New Jersey.
   By the way, these USGA guys are located on my block--57th Street--next to 
Carnegie Hall, on the site of the former Russian Tea Room!
  
  
http://www.usga.org/history/faq/
    
    
What is the origin of the word 'golf?' 
  
> The word 'golf' is not an acronym for anything.  Rather, it derives 
> linguistically from the Dutch word 'kolf' or 'kolve,' meaning quite simply 'club.'  
> In the Scottish dialect of the late 14th or early 15th century, the Dutch 
> term became 'goff' or 'gouff,' and only later in the 16th century 'golf.'  The 
> linguistic connections between the Dutch and Scottish terms are but one 
> reflection of what was a very active trade industry between the Dutch ports and the 
> ports on the east coast of Scotland from the 14th through 17th centuries.  
> Some scholars suggest that the Dutch game of 'kolf,' played with a stick and 
> ball on frozen canals in the wintertime, was brought by the Dutch sailors to 
> the east coast of Scotland, where it was transferred on to the public 
> linkslands and eventually became the game we know today. 
   
  
How did the terms 'birdie' and 'eagle' come into golf?
  
> The term 'birdie' originated in the United States in 1899.  H.B. Martin's 
> "Fifty Years of American Golf" contains an account of a foursomes match played 
> at the Atlantic City (N.J.) CC.  One of the players, Ab Smith relates: "my 
> ball... came to rest within six inches of the cup.  I said 'That was a bird of 
> a shot... I suggest that when one of us plays a hole in one under par he 
> receives double compensation.'  The other two agreed and we began right away, 
> just as soon as the next one came, to call it a 'birdie.'  In 19th century 
> American slang, 'bird' refereed to anyone or anything excellent or wonderful.By 
> analogy with 'birdie,' the term 'eagle' soon thereafter became common to refer 
> to a score one better than a 'bird.'  Also by analogy, the term 'albatross' 
> for double eagle - an even bigger eagle!
>   
>   
What is the origin of the word 'bogey?'
  
> The term 'bogey' comes from a song that was popular in the British Isles in 
> the early 1890s, called "The Bogey Man" (later known as "The Colonel Bogey 
> March").  The character of the song was an elusive figure who hid in the 
> shadows: "I'm the Bogey Man, catch me if you can." Golfers in Scotland and England 
> equated the quest for the elusive Bogey Man with the quest for the elusive 
> perfect score. By the mid to late 1890s, the term 'bogey score' referred to 
> the ideal score a good player could be expected to make on a hole under perfect 
> conditions.  It also came to be used to describe stroke play tournaments – 
> hence, in early Rules books we find a section detailing the regulations for 
> 'Bogey Competitions.'  It was only in the late 1900s/early 1910s that the 
> concept of 'Par' started to emerge - this being the designated number of strokes a 
> scratch player could be expected to take on a hole in ideal conditions.  In 
> this way par was distinguished from bogey.  The term par itself is a standard 
> term in sports handicapping, where it simply means 'level' or 'even.'
>   
>   
What are the origins of the term 'dormie?'
  
> Historically, the term dormie is derived from the French/Latin cognate 
> 'dormir,' meaning 'to sleep,' suggesting that a player who is 'dormie' can relax 
> (literally, go to sleep) without fear of losing the match.
>   
>   
Why do golfers shout 'Fore!' when they hit an errant shot?
  
> The word 'fore' is Scottish in origin, and is a shortened version of the 
> word 'before' or 'afore.' The old Scottish warning, essentially meaning "look 
> out ahead," most probably originated in military circles, where it was used by 
> artillery men as a warning to troops in foreword positions. Golfers as early 
> as the 18th century simply adopted this military warning cry for use on the 
> links.
>   
>   
What is the definition of a 'links' course?
  
> 'Links' is a term that refers to a very specific geographic land form found 
> in Scotland.  Such tracts of low-lying, seaside land are characteristically 
> sandy, treeless, and undulating, often with lines of dunes or dune ridges, 
> and covered by bent grass and gorse.  To be a true links, the tract of land 
> must lie near the mouth of a river - that is, in an estuarine environment.  From 
> the Middle Ages onward, linksland (generally speaking, poor land for 
> farming) were common grounds used for sports, including archery, bowls and golf.

> Because many of the early courses of Scotland were built on these common 
> linksland, golf courses and links have forever been associated.  The term 
> 'links' is commonly misapplied to refer to any golf course.  But remember that a 
> true links depends only on geography.
>   
>   
What is the origin of the popular golf game called 'skins?'
  
> As a format of golf gambling, 'skins' has been around for decades, but 
> really only became popular after the creation of "The Skins Game" in the 1980s. 
> In other parts of the country, 'skins' is also known as 'cats,' 'scats,' 
> 'skats,' or 'syndicates.' Of these, 'syndicates' seems to be the oldest term, 
> going back at least to the 1950s, and possibly earlier. It has been suggested 
> that 'skins,' 'scats,' etc. are simply shortened, simplified versions of the 
> term 'syndicates.' 
>   
>   
Why are there 18 holes on a golf course?
  
> The links at St. Andrews occupy a narrow strip of land along the sea.  As 
> early as the 15th century, golfers at St. Andrews established a customary 
> route through the undulating terrain, playing to holes whose locations were 
> dictated by topography.  The course that emerged featured eleven holes, laid out 
> end to end from the clubhouse to the far end of the property.  One played the 
> holes out, turned around, and played the holes in, for a total of 22 holes. 
> In 1764, several of the holes were deemed too short, and were therefore 
> combined.  The number was thereby reduced from 11 to nine, so that a complete round 
> of the links comprised 18 holes.When golf clubs in the UK formally 
> recognized the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews as the rule-making body for 
> the sport in the late 1890s, it became necessary for many clubs to expand or 
> reduce the length of their course to eighteen holes.  Prior to this time, 
> courses ranged in length from six holes to upward of 20 holes.  However, if 
> golfers were to play by the official R&A rules, then their appointed round would 
> consist of 18 holes.
>   
> 
 Where does the word 'mulligan' come from?
 
> There is considerable debate about this topic, to say the least. There are 
> several clubs and several people who have staked claims about the origin of 
> the term 'mulligan.' 
  
The story most widely accepted focuses on a gentleman named David 
> Mulligan who played at the St. Lambert CC in Montreal, Canada during the 
> 1920s. There are several versions of the David Mulligan story. 

   Mr. Mulligan was a hotelier in the first half of the century, a part-owner 

> and manager of the Biltmore Hotel in New York City, as well as several 
> large Canadian hotels. One story says that the first mulligan was an impulsive 
> sort of event - that one day Mulligan hit a very long drive off the first tee, 
> just not straight, and acting on impulse re-teed and hit again. His partners 
> found it all amusing, and decided that the shot that Mulligan himself called 
> a 'correction shot' deserved a better named, so they called it a 'mulligan.'
  
   Story two: Mulligan played with a regular foursome at St. Lambert, 
> and in the morning he drove to pick up his golfing buddies. The road into 
> the club was reportedly bumpy and windy and just sort of generally poor, with 
> bridge of bumpy railroad ties. An extra shot was allotted to Mulligan, the 
> driver of the car, on the first tee because he was jumpy and shaking from the 
> difficult drive. 
  
   Story three: this story again identified a specific moment, citing a day 
> when David Mulligan showed up late to the course, having scrambled to get 
> out of bed late and get dressed and get to the course on time. He was frazzled 
> on the first tee, hit a poor shot, and re-teed. 
  
   Another version of the 'mulligan' story comes from the Essex Fells CC in 
> N.J. This story is one of the latest, and may therefore be less credible. 
> According to the this version, the term was named after a locker room 
> attendant at the club named John A. 'Buddy' Mulligan, who worked at the club during 
> the 1930s and was known for replaying shots, particularly on the first tee.
   
   Compiled by Dr. Rand Jerris, USGA Museum Curator


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Sep 30 09:08:44 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:08:44 +0100
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.100844.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From ancestry.com,  Republican Compiler(Gettysburg, PA), Sept. 14, 1846.
> p.2, col. 1
>
>      "No longer grace can be allowed these indifferent partizans:  after
the
> stated hour, the committee must wake them, shake them, and if still
> indifferent, force them into a carriage, like convicts in 'Black Mariah,'
> and drive them to the polls, nolens volens."
>
> This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
> Philadelphia.

The first _use_ however, seems otherwise. Note George Thompson's unearthing
of

1835 N.Y. Transcript 24 Dec. 2/5: Escape. — A man named Henry Stage [...]
contrived to make his escape on Saturday last while on his way from Bellevue
prison to the city in the carriage generally known as ‘Black Maria’

1836 The Herald (NY) 6 Aug. 1/2: Pray ask Mr. Justice Bloodgood what is done
with the gold watches and jewelry which are taken from the unfortunate girls
who are marched, by him, out to Black Maria?

As for pronunciation I believe that the consensus is that 19th century Maria
(at least in UK) was mar-EYE-a, just as Sophia was soph-EYE-a, etc.

Jonathon Green


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 30 13:55:49 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:55:49 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
In-Reply-To: <003101c386f6$83356fe0$fd26a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.095549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Sam.  We do have evidence earlier than 1948, but not
nearly as early the 1911 cite -- that's quite a coup!  (It's too bad we
can't use it -- we finesse the whole issue by entering an older, non-
golf sense of "birdie.")


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 14:53:59 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:53:59 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <3F795325.1498.28378066@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.105359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
"Everyday People"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:05:44 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:05:44 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309301051420.6257-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.110544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
> Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
> for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
> "Everyday People"?

I haven't found anything in the files earlier than 1969.



Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:16:28 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:16:28 EDT
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.111628.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 9/29/03 10:23:12 PM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes:


>
> It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the increasing
> availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate changes.
>
> It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and hotels. How
> it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA, but
> we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf
>

Thanks for the correction. Since I normally stay at Hiltons (or other hotels
in their "family"), it has been my normal practice for several years to check
with them whenever I have a conference to attend. I travel quite a bit, and it
is often worth it to me to pay even a slightly higher Hilton rate because of
the perks I get by staying within the system.

I hope that my earlier message doesn't end up costing LSA money! I agree with
others that Maggie Reynolds does an outstanding job of negotiating hotel
rates years in advance. In fact, Maggie is an all-round wonderful manager of the
LSA enterprise. (So, for that matter, is Allan Metcalf a wonderful manager of
the ADS enterprise.)

I don't agree with those who suggest that Sheraton is a "slightly nicer"
hotel chain than Hilton. As a chain, they are in my experience quite comparable.
Or maybe he was comparing only the Boston Back Bay Sheraton with the Boston
Back Bay Hilton? It is certainly the case that the *Seattle* downtown Sheraton is
quite a bit nicer than the Seattle downtown Hilton. Maybe this is the case in
Boston Back Bay as well.

In any case, we would be living in a dream world if we believe that a simple
appeal to organizational loyalty will solve this problem. We live in a
marketplace world, and hotels and organizations willl have to come up with a solution
in future years that reflects the normal workings of the marketplace. I
realize that we academics are supposed to be knee-jerk socialists, but I doubt very
much that Congress will any time soon seize the hotels of America to solve
this problem--or even institute price controls. Perhaps a good socialist answer
to this problem, given that wet live in a capitalist society would be to
insitute a sliding scale of membership and registration fees. Professors who make
more than $100,000 a year [note that that is a RESTRICTIVE relative clause]
would pay far more for both than an assistant professor or instructor making far
less. LSA already does this to a limited extent for retirees and graduate
students; MLA (as I recall) and the Law and Society Association have a rather
elaborate sliding scale for membership (though not yet, as I recall, for
conference registration).


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:26:27 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:26:27 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <3F796388.14451.2877857D@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.112627.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 11:05:44AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> > Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
> > Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
> > for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
> > "Everyday People"?
>
> I haven't found anything in the files earlier than 1969.

The earliest I have handy is 1970, where it is prefixed with
"as the kids say".

But it's not the sort of thing OED readers would generally collect.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Tue Sep 30 15:33:23 2003
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:33:23 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20*=20*=20*=20Re:=20*=20*=20*=20ADS/LSA=20hot?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?el=20rates?=
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.103323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the hilton may have reconsidered.

(which is not to say I called them, but) the lowest price they were
willing to do last Friday was 98 per, plus a nonrefundable $3.50 booking
fee. they suggested that the $93.+ , that Ron mentioned was only on that
day, etc.)

(I didn't book there)

\beth

>>> AAllan at AOL.COM 9/29/2003 9:22:36 PM >>>
Ron writes,

> I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as Luanne's
message
> seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in
the past
> when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different.
> And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in
Boston
> because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a
few
> dollars in the future.
>
It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the
increasing
availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate
changes.

It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and
hotels. How
it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA,
but
we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Sep 30 15:50:29 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:50:29 -0400
Subject: SECOL Review issues available
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.115029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues, I have available copies of the following issues of the _SECOL
Review_:

Volumes 8-18 (through 1999, when the name changed to _Southern Journal of
Linguistics_)

and

issue 1 of vol. 6

and

an Index to all volumes 1976-1986.

I seek a modest donation to our Linguistics petty cash fund. (We can ship
these at our expense.)

Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:01:00 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:01:00 EDT
Subject: Beth on ADS/LSA hot el rates
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.120100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I booked my room on the national Hilton web site, not by calling the hotel.
Usually, rates are lower on the web site. I also requested a AAA discount,
which helps. There was no booking fee. I see in reading my downloaded reservation
agreement, however, that the rate I was quoted did NOT include taxes. So my
room rate ends up being slightly more than $105.00 per night. This is not much
of a savings over the Sheraton conference rate. However, mine is a "deluxe"
room; they also had cheaper rooms (as I recall, $88 plus tax). I spoke yesterday
with someone who was responsible for booking rooms for several people at the
conference; he went for the cheapest rate and found that he saved several
hundred dollars total for his group by booking at the Hilton.

If I were the LSA, I would be in contact with the Sheraton right now,
pointing out that, if LSA does not make its quota, it is because they are charging
significantly more than the (perhaps "slightly" less "nice" hotel across the
street). Maybe the Sheraton will come down in their price if this is pointed out
to them.

In a message dated 9/30/03 11:33:50 AM, simon at IPFW.EDU writes:


> the hilton may have reconsidered.
>
> (which is not to say I called them, but) the lowest price they were
> willing to do last Friday was 98 per, plus a nonrefundable $3.50 booking
> fee. they suggested that the $93.+ , that Ron mentioned was only on that
> day, etc.)
>
> (I didn't book there)
>
> \beth
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:02:52 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:02:52 -0400
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.120252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        My suggestion that the Boston Sheraton is slightly better than the Back Bay Hilton is addressed to those two hotels specifically, and not to the chains generally.

        Expedia.com currently quotes a rate of $139/night at the Back Bay Hilton for Jan. 8 - 11.  Expedia gives the Hilton three stars, the Sheraton four.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:16 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake

I don't agree with those who suggest that Sheraton is a "slightly nicer"
hotel chain than Hilton. As a chain, they are in my experience quite comparable.
Or maybe he was comparing only the Boston Back Bay Sheraton with the Boston
Back Bay Hilton? It is certainly the case that the *Seattle* downtown Sheraton is
quite a bit nicer than the Seattle downtown Hilton. Maybe this is the case in
Boston Back Bay as well.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep 30 16:35:16 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:35:16 -0700
Subject: between you and i
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.093516.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

we have an undergraduate linguistics student at stanford who's started
working with tom wasow on nominative objects in coordination ("between
you and i" and similar things).  the standard story is that this usage
arose from hypercorrection (and then spread in the usual fashion), but
he suspects that hypercorrection isn't the whole story, and some of the
sources he's looked at suggest that it isn't.

does anyone on this list know of relevant historical studies on this
usage?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:42:02 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:42:02 -0400
Subject: between you and i
In-Reply-To: <129550EF-F364-11D7-BAB7-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.124202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 09:35:16AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> we have an undergraduate linguistics student at stanford who's started
> working with tom wasow on nominative objects in coordination ("between
> you and i" and similar things).  the standard story is that this usage
> arose from hypercorrection (and then spread in the usual fashion), but
> he suspects that hypercorrection isn't the whole story, and some of the
> sources he's looked at suggest that it isn't.
>
> does anyone on this list know of relevant historical studies on this
> usage?

There's

Richard K. Redfern, "Is _between you and I_ Good English?," in
_Centennial Usage Studies,_ ed. Greta D. Little & Michael
Montgomery (Publication of the American Dialect Society No. 78) (1994)
187-193.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:47:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:47:42 -0400
Subject: WSJ article on American's British accent
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.124742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from my lunch hour.  I just had a woman before me that I felt like marrying on the spot.  She looks like Erin McKean and she works at Eli's.  Hey, good wedding catering is important...She said that Eli is not writing a food book.
   From today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 30 September 2003, pg. 1, col. 4:

_Bloody Sticky Wicket:_
_Americans in Britain_
_Often Blow the Accent_

_The Urge to Fit In Can Leave_
   _Real Britons Chortling:_
   _"Excuse Me" vs. "Yo"_

(Article not typed--ed.)


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Sep 30 16:56:45 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:56:45 +0100
Subject: New Michael Quinion Book
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.175645.0100.>

> I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought people on
> this list would be interested that Library Journal has a very
> favorable review of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and Isms: A
> Dictionary of Word Beginnings and Endings. The review concludes: "Even
> if you think you know the English language, you will learn a thing or
> two from this little volume. Easy to use, small enough to carry
> around, and chockfull of useful information, this book is for anyone
> who truly loves language."
>
> Congratulations, Michael!

Thank you! I was amused by the subject line, as the book's been out
over a year in the UK and nine months in the US! But it's still
selling well (even better after that review came out).

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 17:18:00 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:18:00 EDT
Subject: Relative Nicerness: Back Bay Hilton v. Sheraton
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.131800.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 9/30/03 12:08:11 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:


>         Expedia.com currently quotes a rate of $139/night at the Back Bay 
> Hilton for Jan. 8 - 11.  Expedia gives the Hilton three stars, the Sheraton 
> four.
> 

Clearly, this proves that Expedia is not a very good buy, then, since the 
Hilton's own web site is $40 cheaper.

Expedia does not anywhere that I can find EXPLAIN its star system or indicate 
who is responsible for assigning the ratings or give any indication of what 
the criteria are. One wonders if the chief reason they like the Sheraton better 
than the Hilton is that the Sheraton allows them a discount that Hilton does 
not. At any rate, a reading of the descriptions of the two hotels seems to 
indicate little difference between the two, except that the Sheraton is a lot 
bigger ("the largest hotel in Boston").


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 30 19:02:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:17 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.150217.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had two mid-1830s references:
Escape. -- A man named Henry Stage . . . contrived to make his escape on Saturday last while on his way from Bellevue prison to the city in the carriage generally known as "Black Maria."  New York Transcript, December 24, 1835, p. 2, col. 5

Pray ask Mr. Justice Bloodgood what is done with the gold watches and jewelry which are taken from the unfortunate girls who are marched, by him, out to Black Maria?  The Herald, August 6, 1836, p. 1, col. 2

In addition, I have notes of several passages from the same period illustrating the failure to use the term "Black Maria":
In 1834 it was called "the corporation coach" -- New York Daily Advertiser, January 30, 1834, p. 2, col. 3; in 1835 the same paper called it "the prison coach" -- New York Daily Advertiser, February 10, 1835; in 1837 it was called "the Rogues Omnibus" -- New York Times, February 2, 1837, p. 2, col. 6.  Of course, the fact that the NYDA didn't use "Black Maria" in 1834 doesn't prove that it hadn't been coined then.

There had been two notable racehorses named Black Maria, mother and daughter, the older active in the 1810s, as I recall, and the daughter in the early 1830s.  For instance, the younger was thoroughly beaten by Flying Dutchman in a race of three four-mile heats on the Jamaica course, in 1832.   "We cannot say whether the knowing ones were taken in or not, but we regret the discomfiture of Black Maria, who was the favorite.  It is said she was suffering from a cold, and came in lame. . . ."  New-York Commercial Advertiser, May 24, 1832, p. 2, col. 1; [Black Maria finishes 6th] New-York Evening Post, May 23, 1832, p. 2, col. 5.  I suppose that the name was suggested because the Black Maria got its passengers to the lockup a good deal quicker than they wanted.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:00 am
Subject: Re: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)

> >This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite
> being from
> >Philadelphia.
>
> George Thompson has presented earlier citations from New York, I
> believe:see the "Black Maria" entry at Michael Quinion's site.
>
> >It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah"
> rather than
> >"Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
> >pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma
> RYE Ah as
> >I grew up in the 1950's.
>
> Yes, it's generally pronounced like that. I don't know whether
> this odd
> spelling had the same weight back in the day, though.
>
> >I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early
> 1800's?
> I believe it was often or usually "ma RYE ah".
>
> For comparison, MW3 shows such a pronunciation first under "Maria
> Theresadollar": another holdover, I suppose.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 30 20:18:03 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:18:03 -0400
Subject: Ologies and Isms: a Michael Quinion festschrift (from GAT)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.161803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone has honored Michael Quinion by taking his "new" book from the shelf here, so I haven't been able to check what he may have had on the words "ism" and "ology".  I don't think that I have posted this stuff here before.

        Symmsonianism.  This, the youngest member of the family of isms. . . .  Commercial Advertiser, February 3, 1826, p. 2, col. 3.  Isms is in OED from 1680, but the earliest American source is 1864 (J. R. Lowell).

        Progress of the Ologies.  [Phrenology] is one of the most important Ologies of the day.  The Herald, February 3, 1837, p. 2, col. 2  OED has ology from 1811, but the earliest American source is 1972!

        They may talk of Far-Downism, Corkonianism, Catholicism, Protestantism, and all the other isms which are supposed to lead to these outrages. . . .  New York Commercial Advertiser, May 3, 1838, p. 2, col. 5

Symmes (not Symmson) was a geologist who believed that the earth was hollow and inhabited inside, with an opening near the North Pole.  Despite the obviously batty nature of this idea, he was in the news for about a decade, lecturing and pleading for money to finance an expedition to look for the opening.

I have debated "Far Down" and its meaning with Jonathon Green, my impression being that it refers to Irish Protestants, his that it refers to men from County Down -- if I do not misremember his thoughts.  Recently I saw a dissertation on the Irish of New York City that derived the term from an Irish phrase referring to their dark complexion (by Irish standards).  I've mislaid the reference and need to dig it up again.  (The dissertation was not by our sometime comrade Prof. Cassidy, who derives everything from the Irish.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Quinion <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: New Michael Quinion Book

> > I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought
> people on
> > this list would be interested that Library Journal has a very
> > favorable review of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and
> Isms: A
> > Dictionary of Word Beginnings and Endings. The review concludes:
> "Even> if you think you know the English language, you will learn
> a thing or
> > two from this little volume. Easy to use, small enough to carry
> > around, and chockfull of useful information, this book is for anyone
> > who truly loves language."
> >
> > Congratulations, Michael!
>
> Thank you! I was amused by the subject line, as the book's been out
> over a year in the UK and nine months in the US! But it's still
> selling well (even better after that review came out).
>
> --
> Michael Quinion
> Editor, World Wide Words
> E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
> Web: <" target="l">http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Sep  1 01:39:17 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:39:17 -0500
Subject: Horseshoes & Grenades (1970)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.203917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have no idea of a written citation, but the expression was fairly common
the first time I was in the Army, 65-68, as "Close only counts in horse
shoes and hand grenades."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>

   26 January 1970, THE GUTHRIAN (Guthrie County, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 1:
   Close only counts in horse shoes and grenades.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 02:37:55 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:37:55 -0400
Subject: Cookies and Cream (1978)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.223755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Cookies and Cream.  Cookies and Creme.  Cookies-n-Cream.
     I haven't done this, it appears.  It's a little difficult because there are are "creme cookies."  We're most familiar with the "cookies and cream" ice cream.  As per the trademarks below, "cookies and cream" took off with Blue Bell in 1978 and then Haagen Daz in 1983.  See the 1983 NEW YORK TIMES article, where it was popularized by Marian "comfort food" Burros.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      The Housekeeper
       Nancy Carey.       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: May 10, 1927.                   p. 9 (1 page):
      Cookie Dessert.

2.
      She Parlays Chicken Puffs Into Profits
       By Elinor Lee.       The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 4, 1957.                   p. C12 (1 page)

3.
      Anne's Reader Exchange
              The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 18, 1982.                   p. E4 (1 page) :
   That rich chocolate dessert made with cookies and cream requires one box of Nabisco chocolate wafer cookies (Magruder's does have them, but they are not readily available) and a half pint of whipping cream, sweetened to taste.
   Spread cookies with the cream, stacking them as you do.  Stand the row of them on edge on a serving platter.  Cover the row iwth the rest of the whipped cream.  Chill for 12 to 24 hours so cream soaks into cookies to make them cake-like.  Slice diagonally.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
              State Police Patrols Check Menace of Liquor and Motor Violators on Rural Highways
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Sep 5, 1924.                   p. 5 (1 page)

2.
      'Here's Your Breakfast, Mother'
       E.R.J..       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Nov 30, 1929.                   p. 12 (1 page)

3.
      Mrs. Fields turns chocolate chip cookies into a blue-chip business
       By Louise Sweeney Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Jan 15, 1986.                   p. 28 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Display Ad 69 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 25, 1933.                   p. SM20 (1 page)

2.
      MASS OUTLET GOAL OF BISCUIT MAKERS
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1951.                   p. 50 (1 page)

3.
      Display Ad 129 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1952.                   p. 96 (1 page)

4.
      COST OF FOOD FOR 4 DOWN 0.6% IN WEEK
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 6, 1975.                   p. 23 (1 page)

5.
      Food Notes
       Marian Burros.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 10, 1983.                   p. C9 (1 page):
   All the Haagen-Dazs dipping stores carry the new cookies and cream flavor, one of the company's most popular, which is a combination of vanilla ice cream and a chocolate cookie whose texture is reminiscent of the outside of an Oreo.  While it is not as good as chocolate chocolate chip, if you like Oreos and vanilla ice cream you will like the new flavor, at $1.25 a scoop.

6.
      ABOUT WESTCHESTER
       By LYNNE AMES.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 29, 1984.                   p. WC2 (1 page)

7.
      Food Notes|
       Florence Fabricant.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 30, 1986.                   p. C7 (1 page)

8.
      About Boston
       By COLIN CAMPBELLSpecial to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 16, 1986.                   p. 6 (1 page)


(TRADEMARKS)
 Word Mark
COOKIES 'N CREAM COOKIES 'N CREAM
 Goods and Services
(ABANDONED) IC  030.  US 046 046.  G & S: PREMIUM ICE CREAM PREMIUM ICE CREAM.  FIRST USE: 19781200.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19790900
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73315746
 Filing Date
June 22, 1981
 Owner
(APPLICANT) BLUE BELL CREAMERIES, INC. BLUE BELL    CREAMERIES, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS LOOP 577, P. O. BOX 1807 BRENHAM TEXAS 77833
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD


(TRADEMARKS)
 Word Mark
 BLUE BELL ICE CREAM SUPREME COOKIES 'N CREAM HALF GALLON
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: ICE CREAM.  FIRST USE: 19781000.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19781000
 Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
 Design Search Code
020701 030701 190725
 Serial Number
73420473
 Filing Date
April 7, 1983
 Published for Opposition
 July 30, 1985
 Change In Registration
CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED
 Registration Number
1374936
 Registration Date
December 10, 1985
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) BLUE BELL CREAMERIES, INC. CORPORATION TEXAS LOOP 577, P. O. BOX 1807 BRENHAM TEXAS 77833
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
LESTER L. HEWITT
 Prior Registrations
0972517;1144455
 Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "ICE CREAM", "COOKIES'N CREAM", "SUPREME", AND "HALF GALLON" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
 Description of Mark
THE DRAWING IS LINED FOR THE COLORS LIGHT BROWN AND GOLD.
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).
 Other Data
REGISTRATION RESTRICTED TO THE AREA COMPRISING THE UNITED STATES EXCEPT THE STATES OF OREGON, WASHINGTON, IDAHO, ALASKA AND MONTANA. CONCURRENT USE PROCEEDING NO. 852 WITH SUNSHINE BISCUITS, INC.
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Mon Sep  1 04:16:38 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:16:38 -0700
Subject: Plumcot (1903)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.AUG.2003.211638.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Judith:


> We had one of those trees, when we had a house -- those are also called
> Italian plums . . . and it is too bad they aren't stocked somewhere.  They
> were a special part of autumn, from October on.  Not to mention the number
> of raccoons and squirrels who thought they were pretty good too.

So raccoons and squirrels like plums, huh?  Sounds familiar, only the ones
I'm familiar with seem to go for cherries in sesason(probably bnecause
nobody around here seems to grow plum trees in their back yard).  Robins
like them, too.  Cherries, I meaan.
Anne G


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 08:18:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 04:18:39 EDT
Subject: On the trail of the "pooch" (1913, 1914, 1917)
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.041839.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Merriam-Webster's 11th has "pooch n [origin unknown] (1924): DOG."
    I'm hot on the trail of this dog, and we'll see what PUCK has.  These
Ancestry citations are a little earlier than the 1919 cite I had posted here
before.



    24 May 1913, INDIANA MESSENGER (Indiana, Pennsylvania), pg. ?, col. 2:
   In the days of the continuous at the Olympic an occasional professional
visitor was a clown with an educated pig.  He used to take the pig out with him
when he had finished his act and had him harnessed up like a trick pooch with
a collar, shoulder straps and a leading string.

   26 October 1914, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana) pg. ?:
(Mutt and Jeff cartoon--ed.)
_Jeff Ought to Have the Only Dog in the Show Like This--By Bud Fisher_
MAN (Panel One, to Jeff, who is walking a dog):  HELLO, JEFF, WHERE DID YOU
GET THE POOCH?

   22 May 1917, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 19, col. 3:
LOST--White poodle female dog; child's playmate; answers to name of "Pooch."
Return to 127 East Main or phone 1796.


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Sep  1 12:37:33 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:37:33 -0400
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.083733.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's something that may interest linguists (Ron Butters, Bethany Dumas, Roger Shuy, and others) who are into trademark consultancy:

1. The Beer Store? is essentially a place where beer is stored. But its wares (as declared in its application for registration as a trademark) are clothing, promotional items, and novelty wares. Its services are the operation of retail stores and sale of alcoholic beverages, especially beer. These, in my opinion, are accidental features (based on the philosophical distinction between "substance" and "accident"). "Beer store," therefore, is not "descriptive" (in trademark usage) of its goods and services.

2. The Corner Store? is essentially a store at a corner, but its declared wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components for forming mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not descriptive of the products it sells.

3. The General Store? is essentially a store of general merchandise, but its declared wares are computer software, catalogues, household electronic appliances, and stationery. It also sells travel services, catalogue marketing of consumer goods, and their delivery. This sounds like a specialty store that specializes in many goods and services. "General store" is not descriptive of the products and services it sells.

The essential meaning of a word, what is foremost in the mind of the average educated user (or AEU, my term for the traditional "native speaker") who knows the word, may be said to be descriptive of it. This is not always the first meaning given in a dictionary. It may be the first in origin if that is how a particular dictionary is organized, as historical dictionaries are (OED, Webster's Third and derivatives, etc.), not the first in actual use, which is the commonest acceptation of a word in the speech community. This meaning is based on the consensus of the people who use the language, whose representative is the AEU.

Thus, for the word "store," the first meaning given in the Concise Oxford, 2002 (and Webster's Collegiate, 2003, etc.) namely, "a quantity or supply kept for use as needed" (COD, store, n. 1), in a word, "reserve" or "stock," arose in the late 15th century. There are 10 of these older meanings in the OED, some labelled rare or obsolete.

In current North American English, however, a store, also called "shop," is "a place where things are kept for future use or sale" (COD, n. 2). This meaning arose in North America in the early 18th century. This, in my opinion, is the essential meaning of "store," the one that is most easily recognized by the AEU, hence given as No. 1 by dictionaries such as American Heritage (which follow a different drummer than Webster's Third). The definition of this meaning may be said to be "descriptive" of the word in trademark usage.

I would appreciate your learned comments.

TOM PAIKEDAY

www.paikeday.net


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Sep  1 12:55:22 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:55:22 -0400
Subject: Fw:      STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.085522.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAUTION: The registered trademark symbol, superscript R inside a circle, is
shown as "=AE" for some technical reason in the following posting I
received. If you have the same problem, please understand. Thanks.

t.m.p.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas M. Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Thomas M. Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA>
> Subject:      STORE1 vs. STORE2
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Here's something that may interest linguists (Ron Butters, Bethany =
> Dumas, Roger Shuy, and others) who are into trademark consultancy:
>
> 1. The Beer Store=AE is essentially a place where beer is stored. But =
> its wares (as declared in its application for registration as a =
> trademark) are clothing, promotional items, and novelty wares. Its =
> services are the operation of retail stores and sale of alcoholic =
> beverages, especially beer. These, in my opinion, are accidental =
> features (based on the philosophical distinction between "substance" and =
> "accident"). "Beer store," therefore, is not "descriptive" (in trademark =
> usage) of its goods and services.
>
> 2. The Corner Store=AE is essentially a store at a corner, but its =
> declared wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components =
> for forming mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not =
> descriptive of the products it sells.
>
> 3. The General Store=AE is essentially a store of general merchandise, =
> but its declared wares are computer software, catalogues, household =
> electronic appliances, and stationery. It also sells travel services, =
> catalogue marketing of consumer goods, and their delivery. This sounds =
> like a specialty store that specializes in many goods and services. =
> "General store" is not descriptive of the products and services it =
> sells.
>
> The essential meaning of a word, what is foremost in the mind of the =
> average educated user (or AEU, my term for the traditional "native =
> speaker") who knows the word, may be said to be descriptive of it. This =
> is not always the first meaning given in a dictionary. It may be the =
> first in origin if that is how a particular dictionary is organized, as =
> historical dictionaries are (OED, Webster's Third and derivatives, =
> etc.), not the first in actual use, which is the commonest acceptation =
> of a word in the speech community. This meaning is based on the =
> consensus of the people who use the language, whose representative is =
> the AEU.
>
> Thus, for the word "store," the first meaning given in the Concise =
> Oxford, 2002 (and Webster's Collegiate, 2003, etc.) namely, "a quantity =
> or supply kept for use as needed" (COD, store, n. 1), in a word, =
> "reserve" or "stock," arose in the late 15th century. There are 10 of =
> these older meanings in the OED, some labelled rare or obsolete.
>
> In current North American English, however, a store, also called "shop," =
> is "a place where things are kept for future use or sale" (COD, n. 2). =
> This meaning arose in North America in the early 18th century. This, in =
> my opinion, is the essential meaning of "store," the one that is most =
> easily recognized by the AEU, hence given as No. 1 by dictionaries such =
> as American Heritage (which follow a different drummer than Webster's =
> Third). The definition of this meaning may be said to be "descriptive" =
> of the word in trademark usage.
>
> I would appreciate your learned comments.
>
> TOM PAIKEDAY
>
> www.paikeday.net


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Sep  1 14:37:48 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:37:48 -0400
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
In-Reply-To: <010401c37085$e7a1ae80$eb726395@thomaspaikeday>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.103748.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thomas M. Paikeday writes:
2. The Corner Store? is essentially a store at a corner, but its declared
wares are "building materials, namely, mouldings and components for forming
mitreless joints between mouldings." "Corner store" is not descriptive of
the products it sells.
 ~~~~~~~
It looks to me as if  "Corner store" IS descriptive of the products
offered, if "components for forming mitreless joints" is the overall
category.
A. Murie


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  1 16:43:11 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:43:11 EDT
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.124311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a speculation on the origin of pooch=dog which the OED lists as
unknown.  The 1912  evidence Barry has just uncovered is just a decade after the
first dialect evidence of the noun and verb pooch meaning 'pouch' or "to bulge
out".   The hypothesis I'm proposing is based on the first nominal citation in
DARE from Maine 1904, an insulting reference to someone as "old pooch-mouth"
and later in 1908 describing a politician as "a pooch-mouthed blabber". Later in
MD 1942 there is the variant pooch-jawed 'jaws protruding at the sides'.
   To me this conjures up the image of a jowly individual, and what other
creature comes to mind when we think of jowls?  Dogs.  So maybe the phrase
"pooch-mouth" was used at first to refer to a person with jowls, and later was
reinterpreted by others to mean someone who looked like a dog, and then the
equation pooch=dog was made.
       It's also interesing that the first cites are in ME, when this looks
like a Scots word,or Scots-Irish, now mostly Southern.  The old Middle English
pooch for pouch is still used in parts of Scotland I believe.   Maybe these
Maine cites actually meant "dog-mouthed" to the author at that time?

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Sep  1 16:45:41 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:45:41 -0400
Subject: Mullet(haircut) revisited.
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.124541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I take the Straight Dope poster as describing the haircut itself, which may not necessarily have been known as a "mullet" at that time.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Clements [mailto:sclements at NEO.RR.COM]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Mullet(haircut) revisited.


If there has been a cite prior to the OED 1994 Beastie Boys, I couldn't find
it.

A poster at the Straight Dope offered this post:

   "First I remember seeing it here in north Texas was about 79-80, often
bleached white and associated with button covered members only jackets,
white dress shirts and thin black leather ties.

Totally newwave fer shur dude!"

I'm not really supposed to post that as a quote.  But knowing the SD, they
want to get the real info.

The poster struck me as more reliable than many.  I would take this at face
value.

All I meant to do by posting was to give a clue to a researcher who might
still be trying to antedate the phrase beyond 1994.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 01:38:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:38:30 EDT
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.213830.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  SAVE DAVID SHULMAN'S LIFE, GET FIRED FROM YOUR JOB

   David Shulman (a longtime ADS member, now 90) had a heart attack about a
year ago, and the person on duty at his home saved his life.  He told me that
he was lucky it happened when it did; most of the staff at his home are
incompetent.  On anyone else's shift, and he'd be dead.  He told me that she should
be given something.
   I paid for an inexpensive piece of jewelry, which we gave her at the
monthly birthday party for residents.  We also gave her a small check, for about
$100.  She said that she agreed with David that most of the staff are
incompetent, and he'd be dead with anyone else.  She said that the staff was
jealous/resentful of her.
   Shulman told me today that the staff is not supposed to receive tips.  I
don't know the precise rules; I don't live there and I'm not related to anyone
who does.    Whatever she received from me/us was nominal and not more than
$500.
   This week, she was fired.

FYI:  Her name is Saida Dakhloui.  It is the St. Nicholas Home on Ovington
Avenue, (718) 238-8141.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF

   I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.
   It's been a great summer.  It started off in May, when I e-mailed the
Chicago Public Library to change its web site about "the Windy City."  Everyone
gets a response within a week--I get nothing all summer, or ever.  Tomorrow
(Tuesday) will probably be another no air, 11-hour parking ticket work day.  This
never ends.

NO SWEAT--I had found the earliest citation for this, from the Korean War in
1951 or 1952.  It was in a book at the NYU library.  I could look again if
necessary.

CARLSON DIDN"T COIN THE PHRASE IN THE 1990s--Richard Carlson got rich from
the phrase, but he didn't even coin it.  It appears earlier here:

Brief Description:  <A HREF="http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SEQ=20030901212330&PID=1801&SA=Mantell,+Michael+R.,+1949-">Mantell, Michael R., 1949-</A>
Don't sweat the small stuff : P.S., it's all small stuff / Michael R.
Mantell.
San Luis Obispo, Calif. : Impact Publishers, c1988.
228 p. ; 21 cm.

ARMY TIMES 1950s CARTOONS--ARMY TIMES    in the late-1950s had one cartoon
called "No Sweat" and another cartoon called "Small Stuff."  These ran in every
issue.  While I didn't see the phrase "Don't sweat the small stuff," it's not
difficult to imagine that someone said it in the 1950s or 1960s.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep  2 01:53:28 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:53:28 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.215328.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It looks like "Don't sweat the small stuff" may have been originated by cardiologist Dr. Robert Eliot.  ("Don't sweat . . .," of course, is older.)  From the 7/31/83 Omaha World-Herald:

        >>And recently Time Magazine devoted its cover story to the subject
of stress. It starts with words of wisdom from Dr. Robert Eliot,
University of Nebraska Medical Center cardiologist and expert on
coping with stress: ""Rule No. l is don't sweat the small stuff; Rule
No. 2 is, it's all small stuff. And if you can't fight and you can't
flee, flow."<<

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 02:20:06 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:20:06 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
In-Reply-To: <1d9.101d96a9.2c854e96@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.222006.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:

> DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF
>
>    I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
> all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.

I have just found my copy of your posting on this.  So please don't spend
any time looking for it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 02:37:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:37:52 EDT
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff/No Sweat
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.223752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't remember if I quoted Dr. Robert Eliot or not for DSTSS.
   OED has 1955's AMERICAN SPEECH for "no sweat."
   "No Sweat" might have been found in the NYU book titles below, which I can
re-check if desired.  I seem to recall it in KOREAN TALES:


Voorhees, Melvin B.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=14&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=14&entitycurrecno=14">Korean tales.</A>
New York, Simon and Schuster, 1952.
209 p. illus. 22 cm.


Geer, Andrew Clare.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=19&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=19&entitycurrecno=19">The new breed.</A>
[1st ed.]
New York, Harper [1952]
395 p.



Chung-kuo hung shih tzu hui.
<A HREF="http://www.bobcat.nyu.edu/WebZ/GeacFETCH?sessionid=01-33345-726365167&recno=231&resultset=1&format=F&next=html/geacnffull.html&bad=error/badfetch.html&&entitytoprecno=231&entitycurrecno=231">Out of their own mouths : revelations and confessions written by American
soldiers of torture, rape, arson, looting, and cold-blooded murder of defenceless
civilians and prisoners of war in Korea.</A>
Peking : Red Cross Society of China, 1952.
50 p. : ills. ; 18 cm.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 02:32:23 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:32:23 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <144.181f4b70.2c84d11f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.223223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's a speculation on the origin of pooch=dog which the OED lists as
>unknown.  The 1912  evidence Barry has just uncovered is just a decade
>after the
>first dialect evidence of the noun and verb pooch meaning 'pouch' or "to bulge
>out".

"Pooch" and "pouch" are the same word in this sense, I think. "Pooch" is
the sound which "pouch" has in some dialects and particularly in Scots
(where /putS/ is written both "pouch" and "pooch"). "Pooch out" is exactly
"pouch out" and many derivatives have both forms, with "pouch-mouth[ed]"
for example appearing in the Century Dictionary (1889) and "pouch-mouth"
described as "old" in Farmer and Henley (1902). I don't think there's any
doubt that the "pooch" in "pooch out" etc. is "pouch". The question is
whence the OTHER (?) "pooch" meaning "dog".

Partridge derives "pooch" from a German pet name for a dog "Putzi",
presumably related to "putzig" = "tidy" or so.

A derivation from "pooch" = "pouch" would be more natural, surely ... but
why would a dog be called a pouch?

To the extent that "pooch" is more specific than "dog" it tends to mean not
"jowly dog" but "small dog" or "worthless dog" (in Mathews for example).
Perhaps one can picture a lapdog, small and nonproductive, a mere pet (not
a working dog).

One interesting point is that "pouch" (i.e., "pooch" /putS/) is/was a
standard word for "pocket" in 19th century Scots (also once in English, I
think). [It even has senses like "money" derived from "pocket", and to
pouch something is to put it in one's pocket.] Now one possibility is that
"pouch dog" was "pocket dog" in Scots: i.e., either a small dog or one
which is a mere pocket accessory (not a working dog). I think this is the
most natural derivation. Attributive "pocket" can be applied to anything
small (e.g., "pocket Hercules" = "small strong man", "pocket battleship" =
"small battleship").

If "pouch dog" was pronounced "pooch[ie] dog" (opaque Scots pronunciation)
it would be natural for the expression to be reanalyzed with "pooch[ie]" =
"dog[gy]" as a reduplication like "kittycat", I think.

But was there a fixed expression like "pouch dog"? I would be inclined to
think that there probably was, IF there was "pocket dog" ("pouch dog" would
be the Scots version). Was there "pocket dog" in the 19th century? I don't
know, but there is today ... although I don't see it in my dictionaries at
a glance. Google for "a pocket dog" and you will find the expression used
repeatedly in the appropriate context, at least in some cases something
like "lapdog" ... in its figurative sense too! For example:

----------

<<They supply you with the best of all worlds, the size of a pocket dog,
the beauty and grace of any "high fashion" breed, the energy and ability of
a large dog ....>>

<<He had a gentle beard, which Laura would fondle like a small pet, a
pocket dog ....>>

<<Good thing the prime minister Chr?tien stoped [sic] being a pocket dog
for the US and said Canada won't get involved in this ....>>

----------

If this hypothesis has any merit, one would like to find "pocket dog",
"pouch dog", and/or "pooch[y] dog" attested in the 19th century.

-- Doug Wilson


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep  2 02:46:55 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:46:55 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff; OT: David Shulman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309012218200.4921-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.224655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 10:20:06PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:
>
> > DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF
> >
> >    I don't know where my notes from 3-4 years ago are.  I just checked, and
> > all of my posts on this aren't in the archives.  I'm sure I posted this.
>
> I have just found my copy of your posting on this.  So please don't spend
> any time looking for it.

Congratulations.

So you plan to let the rest of us know what it is? Now that the
archive is more stable, it would be nice to have it there.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 03:00:31 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:00:31 -0400
Subject: Pooch (1877) (??)
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.230031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From MoA (Michigan):

James Fowler Rusling, _The Great West and Pacific Coast_ (1877): pp. 268-9:
describing Chinese in Portland, Oregon:

<<Here at Portland, John Chinaman turned up again, and seemed to be
behaving thoroughly well. .... In walking about the town, we occasionally
came upon their signs, over the door of some humble dwelling, as for
example, "Ling & Ching, Laundry;" "Hop Kee, washing and ironing;" "Ching
Wing, shoemaker;" " Chow Pooch, doctor;" etc.>>

The Chinese names are perhaps fanciful syllables, but all of them except
"Pooch" are possible Chinese names (Cantonese), I think. "Pooch" however is
not a reasonable way to write any syllable in any major Chinese dialect AFAIK.

I speculate that "Chow Pooch" is a deliberate joke, with "Chow" = "chow" =
"chow chow", either in the sense "[Chinese] food"/"eat" or naming a breed
of dogs (both senses were known by 1877), and with "pooch" = "dog": either
the joke is innocent with "Chow Pooch" = "chow dog" or it is a sly
reference to the Chinese use of dogs as food animals with "Chow Pooch" =
"eat dog".

But I can't be absolutely sure!

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 03:40:59 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:40:59 -0700
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <200309020246.h822kr710120@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.1.SEP.2003.204059.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may be a red herring (or red harrier?), but Pucci is a popular
dog's name in Italy -- a google search of 'pucci' and 'cane' turns up
a number of hits like the ones below. I have no way of knowing
whether this was originally an anglicism derived from 'pooch' or
whether it was in wide use a hundred years ago.

Geoff Nunberg

Un altro cane proprio no!
Pucci ? anziano, come me...
forse presto se ne andr?,
ed io chiss?!!

In giardino c?? posto per il mio cane "Pucci"...

...poi si pente un p? di essere sgarbatino e mi fa: "per? me ne frega
di Pucci" che sarebbe il mio cane.

E' una storia che risale agli anni '60, quando Pucci, un cane
abbandonato dai padroni, giunse a San Rocco di Camogli...

  ...Allora il mio si chiama Spike-pucci (come chiamo il mio cane...!)

La storia del nostro cane week end Pucci dal 1992-1998

  Poi per? le stesse fanciulle afferrano le guanciotte un po' cascanti
del loro killer potenziale e pizzicandole dicono cose come: pucci
pucci, tesorino vuole tante coccole. E il povero cane alla fine non
sa pi? chi ?, e vorrebbe andare in analisi.

Estate 2000, io nel cortile della mia casa a Gouta con il mio cane Pucci


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 05:57:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:57:33 EDT
Subject: Jamaica GLEANER; Cush-Cush (1833); Trinidad, Tobago Cuisine (1993)
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.015733.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  CARIBBEAN TRIPS
    
   I haven't done the Caribbean because the cruises are usually for older 
couples.  Also, there are plenty of Caribbean restaurants here in New York. I'm 
reading Norman Van Aken's NEW WORLD KITCHEN: LATIN AMERICAN AND CARIBBEAN 
CUISINE (2003), with a preface by Anthony Bourdain.  The cuisine is fast becoming 
"American food."
   I'll be in Guyana, French Guiana, and Suriname for ten days in November 
(the total is 90 countries now), and I'm looking for the Dominican Republic for 
Christmas/New Year's.
   Now, to research the cuisine...
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
JAMAICA GLEANER
  
   Here is the press release I previously wrote about:
 
   
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/news/display_news.aspx?ContentID=54
News:   
3/11/2003 12:00:00 AM   
NewspaperArchive.com to Put Entire History of the Jamaica Gleaner Online    
NewspaperArchive.com, the world?s first, largest and busiest website of 
fully-searchable historic newspapers, is proud to announce its latest contract with 
the Jamaica Gleaner.

The Gleaner, which boasts a Sunday circulation of 100,000, is the paper of 
record for the entire Caribbean region. Established in 1834, it has maintained a 
standard of journalistic excellence and in-depth reporting that set it among 
the flagship papers of the world. The Jamaica Gleaner is published seven days 
a week. Its headquarters are in Kingston, Jamaica with offices in London and 
Toronto.
  
  
   I'm counting on the GLEANER for Caribbean cuisine (Cuba, Puerto Rico) as 
well as Jamaican.     I'll give it some time before checking it.  Here's what's 
available so far:
  
1902, 1938, 1944, 1951, 1961, 1971, 1980, 1990, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000
  
   Only two years from 1834-1943...If anyone has a query, send it to me.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CUSH-CUSH
  
DOMESTIC MANNERS AND SOCIAL CONDITION OF THE WHITE, COLOURED, AND NEGRO 
POPULATION OF THE WEST INDIES
by Mrs. Carmichael
in two volumes
London: Whittaker, Treacher, and Co.
1833
New York: Negro Universities Press
1969
  
  
   OED has only one citation from this book ("tum-tum").  This book antedates 
"cush-cush," which OED has from 1871.  Volume One, Chapter VII, pp. 161+ 
discusses "Negro food."
   There's a nice mention of "tomata soup" that was missed by Andrew F. 
Smith's SOUPER TOMATOES (2000).
  
VOLUME ONE
Pg. 163:  The cush-cush yam is the smallest and most delicate.  They are a 
very farinaceous vegetable.  The tania is a root something of the size of a 
potatoe,...
  
Pg. 166:  The tomata comes to great perfection, (Pg. 164--ed.) and the 
negroes use a great deal of it in soup--they are worth about 2_d_. sterling per 
dozen.
    
Pg. 167:  The pigeon pea is an uncommonly nice vegetable; its cultivation is 
easy, and every estate is full of pigeon-pea bushes.
  
Pg. 167:  Calialou may be called the spinage of the West Indies; and is a 
favourite vegetable with white, coloured, and black.  From 1_d_. to 2_d_. will 
buy as much of it as is necessary for soup for four or five persons.  
Christophine is more properly a fruit, as it grows upon a vine; it is planted about 
November, by means of burying the bean, which is found inside the fruit.
  
Pg. 170:  The negroes are very found of the alligator pear, and generally cal
l it the zabaca pear.
    
Pg. 171:  There are several sorts of plum trees--the Jamaica, the hog plum, 
and varieties of the Java plum.
  
Pg. 179:  These streams abound in mullet, cary fish--resembling a small 
lobster, eels and mud fish.
  
Pg. 181:  The mess consists of green plantains, eddoes or yam, made into 
soup, with an abundance of creole peas or beans, or the eddoe leaf, the calialou, 
or perhaps a plant which grows indigenous, and particularly among the canes; 
it is known by the name weedy-weedy; I never could learn that there was any 
other appellation for it; it also nearly resembles spinach.
  
Pg. 182:  I never met with an European who did not relish all the different 
creole soups, or, as they are often called, "negro pot."
  
Pg. 183:  ...they often have tum-tum...
  
Pg. 184:  The dish is well known in the West Indies by the name of souse, and 
is a favourite with all.
  
Pg. 192:  At Christmas, Irish mess, beef, flour, or rice, sugar and rum are 
served out.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRINIDAD, TOBAGO CUISINE
  
CALLALOO, CALYPSO & CARNIVAL:
THE CUISINES OF TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
by Dave DeWitt and Mary Jane Wilan
Freedom, Ca: The Crossing Press
1993
  
Pg. 31:  Shadow Bennie Sauce
Pg. 37:  Mango Kucheela
Pg. 53:  Cowheel Soup
Pg. 70:  Shark-and-Bake
   This specialty, as served from roadside stands at Maracas Bay, is a kind 
of T&T version of fish-and-chips.
Pg. 73:  Buljol
   The name of this salad of shredded salted fish comes from the French 
_brule_, meaning burnt, and _geule_, slang for mouth.  Since the dish is served at 
room temperature, the burning is obviously the result of the Congo pepper.
Pg. 73:  Fried Flying Fish
   This dish is a specialty of Tobago, where it is commonly served at 
restaurants and at the hotels along the Courland Bay.
Pg. 76:  Aeeras
   These fritters, of West African origin, are popular throughout the West 
Indies and are called stamp-and-go in Jamaica.  In Africa they were usually made 
with black-eyed pea flour, but these days wheat flour is used.
Pg. 82:  Buss-Up-Shut and Roti Bread
   When any of the griddle breads are ripped apart for dipping into curries, 
they are called buss-up-shut, vernacular for "burst-up-shirt," because they 
resemble torn cloth.  When left whole, the breads are stuffed with curried meat, 
seafood, or vegetables and rolled up in the manner of a burrito.
Pg. 86:  Sahina
Pg. 92:  Toolum
Pg. 95:  Sewain
  
Pg. 104  GLOSSARY
Accra
Agouti
Allspice
Aloo
Amchar
Anchaar
Bacalao
Bake.  Native bread that is either fried or baked.
Balangen
Beigun
Bellyfull.  Any filling food.  Also, a type of dessert.
Black pudding
Bodi
Boucanee
Breadfruit
Buljol
Bun-bun.  Burned layer on bottom of _pelau_ pan.
Bush.  Anything green and leafy.
Bush meat
Buss-up-shut
Callaloo
Cascadura
Cassareep
Cassava
Chadon bene.  See Shadow Bennie.
Channa.  Chick-peas or garbanzo beans.
Chip-chip
Christophene
Chutney
Congo
Coo-coo.  Okra and cornmeal "bread."
Cush-cush.  Yam.
Dasheen
Dhal
Doubles.  Curried _channa_ served between two pieces of fried bread.
Figs.  Small bananas.
Floats.  Fried yeast bread.
Funity.  Bundle of soup ingredients, such as turnips, carrots, celery, and 
thyme.
Ground provisions
Hops bread.  Baked yeast bread.
Jeera
Jelly nut
Jumbie.  Zombie.
Pg. 105:
Kurma
Lambie.  COnch.
Lappe.  Rabbit.
Makaforshet.  Leftovers.
Manicou.  Opossum.
Masala
Mauby
Melongene.  Eggplant.
Ochro.  Okra.
Oil-down.
Pachro.  Sea urchin.
Pan.  Steel drum.
Passion fruit
Pawpaw.  Papaya.
Pelau
Phulouri.  Fried split-pea appetizer.
Pigeon pea
Piri piri.  Hot and spicy Portuguese pepper oil.
Plantain
Poncha crema.  Trinidadian eggnog.
Pumpkin
Quenk.  WIld pig; peccary.
Roocoo.  Achiote; annatto seeds.
Roti
Saheena.  Fritter made with ground _channa_ and _dasheen_ leaves.  Also 
spelled _sahina_.
Salt cod
Sancoche.  A filling T&T stew.
Sea moss
Sewain.  Vermicelli dessert popular at Muslim festivals.  Also spelled 
_sawine_.
Shaddock
Shadow Bennie.  Nickname for _chadon bene_, an aromatic her (_Eryngium 
foetidum_) used in sauces and stews.  The Spanish name is _culantro_; the Hindi name 
is _bandhania_.
Sorrel
Souse.  Popular Sunday breakfast dish made from pickled pork.
Talkaree.  Vegetables cooked down as an accompaniment to rice or roti.  Also 
spelled _talkari_.
Tamarind
Tannia
Taro
Tatoo.  Armadillo.
Tawa.  Large, flat griddle for cooking _roti_ breads.
Taza sale.  Salted kingfish.
Toolum.  Sticky candy made from molasses and grated coconut.  Also spelled 
_tulum_.
Tum-tum.  Mashed green plantain.
Yam


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 10:32:23 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:32:23 -0400
Subject: Don't Sweat the Small Stuff
In-Reply-To: <20030902024655.GA3671@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.063223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> So you plan to let the rest of us know what it is? Now that the
> archive is more stable, it would be nice to have it there.

I found a hard copy rather than an electronic copy, so I'll have to
retype it.  Also please note that my printout apparently is just a portion
of the posting that I found relevant to my own needs, not the entire
posting:

<beginning of Popik posting excerpt>

  Richard Carlson has reaped thousands of dollars (if not millions) based
on this one phrase.  It's a small detail, but the phrase is not even his!
  In 1988, Mark Mantell (not to be confused with our Dragonsystems guy)
published DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF: P.S. IT'S ALL SMALL STUFF.  This
was made into an audio book in 1996 -- a year before Carlson's book came
out.
  Even the joke "Don't sweat the petty things...and don't pet the sweaty
things" dates two years before Carlson's book.
  A ProQuest check (ProQuest 2.1 will come out in a day) shows the quote
used in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 10 July 1988, and in FAMILY CIRCLE, 14
March 1989--a great many years before Carlson's book.
  A DejaNews check showed this posting before 4-22-95:

Two-step plan for handling stress:
Step 1:  Don't sweat the small stuff.
Step 2:  Remember that it's all small stuff.
--Anthony Robbins.

  Other DejaNews resulst show this is given as "Rule 1" and "Rule 2."
Anthony Robbins may have said it, but it predates Robbins.
  A WorldCat check shows the phrase goes back quite a bit:

DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF: ESTABLISHING THE NEED FOR GOOD NEWS (1980) by
Marvin Phillips, a cassette tape by the Garnett Church of Christ.
DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF (1973) by Marie Frost, illutrations by Joyce
Thimsen, from Key Publishers (Christian life).

  I remember it as "don't sweat the details."  That meant "don't let
something small trip up something large."  It was not followed with "it's
all small stuff."
  A song called "Don't sweat the techniaue" was recorded in 1992 by Eric
B. and Rakim.  "Don't sweat the details" might be a little harder to find,
unfortunately.
  Perhaps a better, more realistic quote is:

"No sweat, no sweet."
--Samuel Smiles, SELF HELP, pg. 305 (1859).

<end of Popik posting excerpt>


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  2 17:08:48 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:08:48 EDT
Subject: STORE1 vs. STORE2
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.130848.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the 1970's near where I lived there was a large emporium entitled "The
Door Store".  (I strongly suspect it was part of a chain.)  For years I never
bothered going there, being under the impression it sold only doors.  (It was in
fact less than a block away from a major Home Depot/Lowe's type store that I
frequently went to.)

Finally someone tipped me off that the Door Store was actually a furniture
place, so I went there.  Yes, it did have a few prefab door assemblies on sale,
but the stock was mostly furniture, and I purchased a pair of six-foot-tall
bookcases that I still  use a quarter-century later.  They were lucky that their
overly cute name did not cost them me as a customer.

              - James A. Landau


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 18:23:40 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:23:40 -0700
Subject: prune plums
In-Reply-To: <000701c36ff0$0bd071b0$0fb89b3f@chaos>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.112340.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What people on the list are calling "prune plums" are what I know as
"Italian prunes" (not plums).  That's also what they're called in stores,
here and elsewhere to the best of my recollection.  That's what are called
Zwetschgen in German.  A little later in the season another kind
appears--they're the same shape but bigger than the Italian prunes, and I
forget what they're called.

I always figured that the difference between plums and prunes was that
plums were clingstone and prunes were freestone.  The only thing I have to
go by is that everything labeled "plum" that I have happened to buy in a
store seems to have been clingstone, and everything labeled "prune"
(including dried prunes, Italian prunes and this what's-its-name prune that
I can't remember) seems to have been freestone.  Also, most plums seem to
have sour skin and prunes have sweet skin, but I assume that's secondary.

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:45 PM -0400 David Bergdahl
<einstein at FROGNET.NET> wrote:

> Prune plums in German are zwetschgen from which an open-faced torte
> called a zwetschgendatchi is made--delicious!!  Prune plums are
> longer--less round--similar in shape to roma tomatotes.  For a recipe
> google the name.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Sep  2 18:40:46 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:40:46 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.144046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?


Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
Just passing it along for information or amusement.


"ORIGIN OF 'POOCH' PROVES STUMPER" THE NEW YORK SUN, MAY 17, 1941

"When a reader recently asked the origin of the word 'pooch' as applied to
a dog, in appeared an easy question just because anything in such general
use should not be hard to trace. A consulting of the leading lexicons,
however, failed to produce an answer and Dr. Charles E. Funk, one of the
most widely recognized lexicographers, admits it has him stumped.
'It has come under the heading of criminal slang, most of which is gypsy in
origin,' he said. 'It would be my theory, but nothing more than a theory,
that there must be some old gypsy word on which it is based. The only word
'pooch' that appears in standard works is the Scotch variant for pouch, and
has no relation to a dog."

THE NEW YORK SUN, May 23,1941  LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

"Sir: In your issue of May 17 there was a letter in which it was admitted
that the word 'pooch' as applied to a dog could not be traced to a
legitimate origin. Several days ago I alluded to the dog of a retired
British Army officer as a 'pooch.' He was astonished and asked if I'd ever
been to India.
'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. I'm astonished to hear it here!'
I told him that I got it out of the 'funnies,' where it was used by the
late T.A. Dorgan, unless I am mistaken." V.E. Scott.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep  2 19:23:36 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:23:36 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.152336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen Miller asks:

> First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>

The NYPL has the morgue kept by the Sun.  This includes clippings both from the Sun and from some other newspapers, filed mostly or entirely under the names of people mentioned.  It extends back at least to the early 20th C.  The last time I consulted it, several years ago, it seemed that there was only one person in the library who knew how to find stuff in it, and that was a guy named Burke, if I recall, who worked in the Map Division.

I don't know of a database.

For those of you who don't know this paper: it isn't the thing currently being published, nor at all ancestral to it, though the present paper has taken over the old Sun's masthead and motto.  The original Sun was the first newspaper in NYC to be sold on the streets, for a penny, in 1833.  All other papers then were sold by subscription only, for home delivery, with a nominal price of 6 cents, but an actual cost of $10/year.  The success of the Sun prompted the founding of the Herald, the NY Tribune and the NY Times and others.  It was a particularly influential paper in the late 19th C, when it was edited by Charles Henry Dana.  The Sun lasted until 1950, when it merged with the World Telegram to form the World Telegram and Sun.

For those of you who live in NYC or may visit it:  There is a large marble building on Broadway at the corner of Chamber street, just north of City Hall.  This was once the first department store, "A. T. Stewart's Marble Palace".  After he moved his store uptown, the building was taken over by The Sun, and the large clocks at the corners of the building are relicts of the Sun: notice the motto "The Sun.  It Shines for All."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:05:07 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:05:07 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <200309021837.h82IbEI01753@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.160507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?

No, it's not, unfortunately.

> Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.

Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
anyone else do this (before you did).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  2 18:22:00 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:22:00 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309021601030.3278-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.142200.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to butt in, but perhaps I should mention that "antedate" is the
term most frequently used at Merriam.  I tend to lean towards
"antedating" myself, probably because of all those years in grad
school soaking up academic and OED conventions, and for that
reason I often find myself in something of a moral quandary over
which term to use -- the "proper" and accepted one, or the one
used by those language libertines in Springfield who happen to pay
my salary.  I actually end up using both, justifying the
inconsistency within my conscience as an exercise in the fine old
art of elegant variation.  Others, I suppose, might regard it as trying
to please too many  people at once.  I admit that it's a bad habit of
mine.

Joanne



On 2 Sep 2003, at 16:05, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> > First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>
> No, it's not, unfortunately.
>
> > Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
>
> Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
> pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
> Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
> anyone else do this (before you did).
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:35:55 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:35:55 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902142139.00b41390@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.163555.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:40 PM -0400 9/2/03, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>THE NEW YORK SUN, May 23,1941  LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
>
>"Sir: In your issue of May 17 there was a letter in which it was admitted
>that the word 'pooch' as applied to a dog could not be traced to a
>legitimate origin. Several days ago I alluded to the dog of a retired
>British Army officer as a 'pooch.' He was astonished and asked if I'd ever
>been to India.
>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. I'm astonished to hear it here!'
>I told him that I got it out of the 'funnies,' where it was used by the
>late T.A. Dorgan, unless I am mistaken." V.E. Scott.

Whence "hot pooch" (because TAD couldn't spell "dachshund"), and the
rest is history...

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:40:05 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:40:05 -0400
Subject: Honest Abe the Slangster
In-Reply-To: <b04180b04d1c.b04d1cb04180@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.164005.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Historical Dictionary of American Slang has a first use of 1942
for "ass-backwards" and of 1932 for "bass-ackwards."

However, the Abraham Lincoln Association has an undated document
printed in _The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln_ VIII. 420, which
begins as follows:

He said he was riding _bass-ackwards_ on a _jass-ack_, through a
_patton-cotch_, on a pair of _baddle-sags_, [etc.]

The _Collected Works_ identifies this as "a 'piece' which Lincoln worte
and gave to the bailiff of one of the Springfield courts."  The
_Collected Works_ is the standard edition of Lincoln's writings, and is
quite scholarly and careful about what it accepts as authentic
Lincolniana.  It lists thousands of documents that it rejects as
inauthentic.  This one is listed with the authentic documents, so it
should be regarded as by Lincoln and dated as "a1865" and the usage
of "ass-backwards" is a major antedating.

Fred Shapiro


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  2 20:58:00 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:58:00 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309021601030.3278-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.165800.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
>>  First a question, is the New York Sun online and searchable anywhere?
>
>No, it's not, unfortunately.
>
>>  Next, the article, not an antedate by any means, and it's not an opinion.
>
>Of course this list is the last place to prescribe usage, but it's worth
>pointing out that the usual term is "antedating."  Barry Popik and David
>Shulman and, I think, Gerald Cohen, use "antedate," but I've never seen
>anyone else do this (before you did).
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
I confess I use it too, but then I'm partial to zero-formations.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep  2 22:07:42 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:07:42 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902142139.00b41390@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.180742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'

I don't think so.

-- Doug Wilson


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Tue Sep  2 22:16:31 2003
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:16:31 -0500
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.171631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oy

"dog" in Hindi and in Urdu is kutta (short /u/ (vowels have length),
double dental (not retroflex) /t/. I don't have access to devanagari or
perso-arabic script on this email system.

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


>>> douglas at NB.NET 9/2/2003 5:07:42 PM >>>
>'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'

I don't think so.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep  2 22:25:44 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:25:44 -0700
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030902175631.04c76a50@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.152544.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 03:07 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:

>> 'Pooch,' he said, 'is Hindustani for dog. ....'
>
> I don't think so.

  nor do i, though it would be nice to hear from a hindi/urdu speaker.

the sanskrit root is /shun/ (where "sh" represents a palatal
fricative), cognate
with latin /kan/, as in "canis".

arnold, whose most beloved dog was a female named Shvani
   (literally 'bitch, female dog'), who overlapped the cats named Koshka
   (russian) and Kurniaou (estonian)


From ziporah at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Sep  2 23:03:44 2003
From: ziporah at EARTHLINK.NET (ziporah)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:03:44 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.190344.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry I don't know how to do it the right way. Could you unsuscribe me, please? afl



> -------------------


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Wed Sep  3 01:40:01 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:40:01 -0500
Subject: nicotini
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.204001.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From USA Today's state news snippets: "FLORIDA: Fort Lauderdale -- a
new drink called the nicotini has emerged in the city's nightlife
district since restaurants were forced to ban smoking. The
tobacco-spiked martinis are being served to smokers who don't want to go
outside to light up."

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 01:43:32 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:43:32 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20nicotini?=
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.214332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the heads-up! That's one drink I can do without.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 02:21:06 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:21:06 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20nicotini?=
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.222106.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, my previous was a mis-posting. - Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep  3 02:21:16 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:21:16 -0400
Subject: Pooch article
In-Reply-To: <3F54A788.11495.244BC11D@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.SEP.2003.222116.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

> Not to butt in, but perhaps I should mention that "antedate" is the
> term most frequently used at Merriam.  I tend to lean towards
> "antedating" myself, probably because of all those years in grad

OK, I stand corrected.  "Antedating" is the term in the OED/Notes and
Queries/American Speech tradition, which is where all the antedating took
place; but I guess now we have Merriam-Webster and Barry Popik in the
antedating biz, and I shouldn't begrudge them the choice of whatever term
they like to describe their efforts.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep  3 07:03:10 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 03:03:10 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030901214630.04c6a240@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.030310.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>If this hypothesis has any merit, one would like to find "pocket dog",
>"pouch dog", and/or "pooch[y] dog" attested in the 19th century.

Here's a start: "pocket dog" from 1914 ... "sleeve dog" too [the Chinese
version?] ... now I need the Scots version "pouch dog" ... and a little
earlier ....

Rex Beach, _The Auction Block_ (from Proj. Gutenberg): Ch. 20:

<<At a fashionable up-town kennel he found exactly what he wanted, in the
shape of a Pekingese -- a playful, pedigreed pocket dog scarcely larger
than his two fists. It was a creature to excite the admiration of any
woman; its family tree was taller than that of a Spanish nobleman, and its
name was Ying. But here again Bob was handicapped by poverty, for sleeve
dogs are expensive novelties, and the price of Ying was seven hundred
dollars--marked down from one thousand, and evidently the bargain of a
lifetime at that price.>>

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep  3 16:52:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:58 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Robot"
In-Reply-To: <200308311934.h7VJYbI22462@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.125258.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED's first use for the word "robot" is dated 1923.  Here is an
antedating:

1922 _N.Y. Times_ 13 Aug. 78  According to the Czechoslovaks -- "R.U.R."
is a Czechoslovak play -- the piece departs from many dramatic traditions.
The author is Karel Capek, and the full title is "Rosum's Universal
Robots."

The OED's etymology should probably be revised, since it refers to Karel
Capek's play "R.U.R." (1920), but not to the earlier Czech usage of
"robot" mentioned by Allan Metcalf in his book _The World In So Many
Words_: Josef Capek's short story "Opilec" (1917).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep  3 19:50:11 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:50:11 -0400
Subject: Seroco, acronym (1902)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c369a9$b14403c0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.155011.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Aug 23, 2003 at 03:06:42PM -0400, Dave Wilton wrote:
> I found the following citation for the trade name "Seroco", an acronym for
> Sears, Roebuck, & Company in a 1902 Washington Post classified ad. To my
> knowledge, it's the earliest instance of an acronymic origin for a word.
> Beats "ANZAC" by some 13 years.

I think you'll find _Nabisco_ from the same era, or slightly
earlier (1898 is the date that sticks in mind, but I'm too
lazy to look it up).

Richard Bailey cites an example of _colinda_ for the _Colonial
and Indian Exhibition_ in 1886 in his book _Nineteenth-Century
English._

Best

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep  3 22:35:53 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:35:53 EDT
Subject: Parm (1974. from Parmigiana)
Message-ID: <WED.3.SEP.2003.183553.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for "parm" as short for "parmigiana", as in
"veal parm". Earliest I could find in the Times was '77,
though I admit I didn't read through the earlier real-estate
ads.
--e-mail request

   The citations below are from Ancestry.com.  I browsed through the Los
Angeles Public Library menus, but didn't find anything.  The best bet would be to
check pizza shop menus from the 1970s, but I threw all of those away in the
1970s.  I could check Arthur Schwartz's menu collection at a local university
library, but that takes too much time.
   OT:  My area's phone service was out for about 24 hours.  Yeah, another
thing.  What a horrible summer, and it's not over yet.



   10 April 1974, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg.4, col. 2:
BANQUET FROZEN
BUFFET DINNERS
Sliced Turkey & Gravy, Beef Stew, Veal Parm.,
Chicken & Dumpling or Salisbury Steak

   9 November 1974, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysbury, PA), pg. 4, col. 3:
LUCA'S PIZZA
DINNER:  Lasagna . Ravioli . Calzoni . Egg Plant
   Parm. . Veal and Pepper . Veal Cutlet Parm.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 07:55:49 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 03:55:49 EDT
Subject: Donal Davidson's "triangulation," "anomalous monism"
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.035549.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK TIMES:


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/obituaries/04DAVI.html
Donald Davidson, 86, Philosopher With Linguistic Focus, Dies
By DOUGLAS MARTIN
Donald H. Davidson, a philosopher whose complex but penetrating insights into
topics like linguistic analysis and the nature of truth influenced a
generation of thinkers, died on Aug. 31 in Berkeley, Calif. He was 86.
(...)
Dr. Davidson coined terms to express complex ideas. One was "triangulation."
The triangle is formed of the individual, all other people and the nonhuman
universe. Language and thought are created by the three interacting with each
other.

Another was "anomalous monism," the notion that mind and body are different
and that, contrary to much philosophical opinion, the mind cannot be reduced to
physical processes.


(OED has "triangulation" from 1818, and from 1940 in mathematics.  This
definition is not included.  OED does not have "anomalous monism"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 10:54:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:54:13 EDT
Subject: Rush Hour/Minute; Pizzed
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.065413.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RUSH HOUR/MINUTE

   This was on the Word Spy For "Rush Minute":

Backgrounder:
This phrase is a play on rush hour, a term that I would have guessed was
invented in the 1960s, or the 1950s at the earliest. Nope. Surprisingly, it
actually dates to the late 19th century. The Oxford English Dictionary supplies us
with the following citation from the October 8, 1898 edition of the Westminster
Gazette: "Trailer cars can be put on during the 'rush hours', mornings and
evenings."

It's possible that rush minute is older than I thought, as well. Linguist
Michael Quinion (see his excellent <A HREF="http://www.worldwidewords.org/">World Wide Words site</A>) passed the following
note along:


>
> This rather neat play on the better-known expression must have been
> independently invented by several people. I first heard it in 1971 from Colm
> Connolly, the presenter of a radio programme in Plymouth that I was producing, as a
> facetious comment on the smallness of some of the local communities. He
> probably picked it up from somebody in his home city of Dublin.


   I posted here several times on "rush hour."  I traced it to at least 1886.
 How could he possibly think "rush hour" is from the 1960s?   Why rely on a
moldy OED citation?
   Paul McFedries knows about the ADS.  He knows there are ADS-L archives.
Yet, he never checks them??
    I'll never get any respect.  It's always something this summer.  Either
the electricity goes out, or people overlook my work, or people make fun of me
while I'm doing eleven straight hours of parking tickets.  And it never ends.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PIZZED

   I like "pizzed," sort of a jazzy version of "pissed."  It perhaps should
be recorded in the slang dictionaries, along with "fvck."
    Google turns up hundreds of hits for "pizzed" along with this:

Did you mean: _pizza_


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 12:48:22 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:48:22 EDT
Subject: Parm (1974. from Parmigiana)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.084822.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IBM's "OS/360" operating system (now known as "MVS"), which was released
sometime in the middle 1960's, used "PARM" as the abbreviation for the word
"parameter".  Therefore well before 1974 there were thousands of IBM programmers who
were used to "parm", although I have no evidence that they were responsible
for the renaming of "veal parameter".

            James A. Landau
            systems engineer
            FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
            Atlantic City Int'l Airport   NJ   08405   USA


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Sep  4 19:18:29 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:18:29 -0400
Subject: slang use of "ransom"?
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.151829.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues, I have just spoken with Ken Ringle of the Washington Post. he
is interested in slang use of the word "random" as in "That certainly was
a random outfit."

Apparently teenagers in some areas (CA?) have been using the term as a
more-or-less value-neutral term for about 6 years. If you can provide
data or other information about this usage, please email Ken at
ringlek at washpost.com

(And you might copy ADS-L.)

Thanks,
Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep  4 23:50:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:50:01 EDT
Subject: Lord Woolton Pie & LONDON TIMES (1941)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.195001.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   26 April 1941, THE TIMES (London), pg. 2, col. D:
      _LORD WOOLTON PIE_
      _THE OFFICIAL RECIPE_
   In hotels and restaurants, no less than in communal canteens, many people
have tasted Lord Woolton pie and pronounced it good.  Like many other
economical dish, it can be described as wholesome fare.  It also meets the dietician's
requirements in certain vitamins.  The ingredients can be varied according to
the vegetables in season.  Here is the official recipe:--
   Take 1lb. each diced of potatoes, cauliflower, swedes, and carrots, three
or four springs onions--if possible, one teaspoonful of vegetable extract, and
one tablespponful of oatmeal.  Cook all together for 10 minutes with just
enough water to cover.  Stir occasionally to prevent the mixture from sticking.
Allow  to cool; put into a piedish, sprinkle with chopped parsley, and cover
with a crust of potato or wheatmeal pastry.  Bake in a moderate oven until the
pastry is nicely browned and serve hot with a brown gravy.


LONDON TIMES now to January 1839--
   For some reason, the TIMES (London) is no longer on the new Bobcat menu at
NYU.  George, did it just go away?
   I checked at the NYPL, and the database now reaches 1839.  (It had been
1861.)
   Unfortunately, it appears that "vegetarian" goes back only to 1 June 1848,
pg. 8, col. B.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep  5 03:18:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:18:14 -0400
Subject: antedating? of "pinch hitter" (1899)
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.231814.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

After consulting with Barry, I decided to post what I incidentally found at
ancestry.com.  I was searching for something completely different.  But you
just have to read those old newspapers.

MW has 1915 for "pinch-hit" and 1912 for "pinch hitter"
OED is totally out of the running on this one.

Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY(the 1989 edition, ACCORDING to Barry) has 1907
for "pinch hit" and 1902 for "pinch hitter."  Perhaps his latest edition has
earlier.

The earliest ancestry.com has is 1899.

September 4, 1899.  FORT WAYNE NEWS(INDIANA).  The page number is cut off.

                              "SPORTING NOTES"
  Letcher continues to be the best "pinch hitter" in the team, or in the
league, for that matter.

(I'm not sure if that means he was a substitute batter or came through in a
pinch--sc)




     "


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 03:30:05 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:30:05 EDT
Subject: New word?  prosititots
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.233005.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We were talking today about the movie "Thirteen" (pretty difficult for a
parent to watch) and one of my students said that even since they were in junior
high the girls fashions have gotten out of hand with the heavy makeup and lots
of flesh showing, to which another student replied that where she's from in NJ
parents have started dressing their kids up in halter tops when they're
toddlers, and that she's heard these kids refered to as "prostitots".  Sounds like
a journalist's coinage...

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Sep  5 03:59:00 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:59:00 -0400
Subject: a guess on pooch=dog origin
In-Reply-To: <p05111b0fbb79b82bf2ec@[63.196.212.113]>
Message-ID: <THU.4.SEP.2003.235900.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This may be a red herring (or red harrier?), but Pucci is a popular
>dog's name in Italy -- a google search of 'pucci' and 'cane' turns up
>a number of hits ....

Here's another possible red herring ... but interesting in view of the 1941
'Hindustani' attribution.

The Hindi word commonly written "poonch" = "tail" is used in a few places
on the Web as a dog name. E.g.:

http://www.geocities.com/lizandshar/poonchsadvice.html

(dog-to-dog advice column by Poonch)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20001223/windows/above.htm

(dog in India named Poonch = tail because it follows [its owner])

There is an aphorism about a dog's tail quoted on the Web with the spelling
"kutha ka poonch".

A Hindi-speaking acquaintance pronounces this "poonch" in a way which is
virtually indistinguishable from English "pooch" (to me).

[The word in devanagari is spelled /p/, /u/ ("long u"), /chh/ (aspirated
voiceless alv'pal.), with superscript nasal dot. (Pardon me, I'm not very
familiar with this script.)]

Relationship to "pooch" etymology? Maybe none. But then again ....

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 05:56:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:56:44 EDT
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.015644.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 75 Google hits for "Green Swizzle."    Wodehouse mentioned the
drink.  This particular swizzle, though famous, is not in the OED.


   2 February 1910, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 2:
_CARYPTON_
   The Green Swizzle of the West Indies; a combination of Rum, Lime Juice, &
c., that will please the palate of the most fastidious; a favorite drink for
afternoon teas and receptions.
   Per bottle, $1.50
To Kalon Wine Co.
615 14th St., N. W.


THE PATH PF THE CONQUISTADORES:
TRINIDAD AND VENEZUELAN GUIANA
by Lindon Bates, Jr.
Boston:  Houghton Mifflin Company
1912

Pg. 72:  We are introduced to the renowned "green swizzle"--a liquid whose
translucent tinge fills the bottom of the glass, the green shading gradually
into the dark red of bitters near the surface.  Gin, lime, and soda have entered
into its making, and the star-shaped swizzle-stick has been twirled within it.
 Its taste is unique; its action _suaviter in modo, fortiter in re_.
   Green swizzles have a marked effect on people's conversational ability.
Stevenson recounts stories of his start in the Indian Civil Service, under Sir
WIlliam Willcox,...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 06:59:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:59:52 EDT
Subject: Conkies (1943, `1944); Searching Ancestry Secrets
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.025952.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEARCHING ANCESTRY SECRETS

   It appears that www.newspaperarchive.com _does_ allow you to search for
phrases.  Use the "advanced search."
   Ancestry just has a first name & last name search, or a keyword search.
I've been getting wacky search results.  For example, first name "coined" and
last name "phrase" has over 1,000 hits.  First name "coined" and last name
"word" had 0 hits!
   Www.newspaperarchive.com lets you search for the exact phrase.  It's the
same database, but I'm not subscribed.  So I thought I'd search on that
database, then go to Ancestry to pull the citation.
   The thing just doesn't work well.  Say I get 100 results.  I see 1-10.
Then I request 11-20, and I still get 1-10.  I make a new search and the old
search is applied again.
   I've been going crazy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CONKIES

   Where is a good date for "conkies"?  OED doesn't seem to have the popular
West Indian food.
   These two NYPL cookbooks were interesting reads and the earliest cookbooks
I'm likely to find.


WAR TIME RECIPES
FOR USE IN THE WEST INDIES
compiled by Mrs. St. J. Hodson
(1943?)

Pg. 19:  CONKIES.  (Mrs. E. Haynes)
1 pt. Corn Meal
1 gill Milk
1 lb. Sugar (heavyweight)
Spice & Salt to taste
1 1/2 Pumpkin
1 dessertspoon each of Lard and
1 grated Cocoanut
Butter
2 beaten Eggs
   Mix all together and boil either in individual conkies wrapped in pieces
of plantain leaf or in a buttered bowl and turn out to serve.

Pg. (no page number):
(A chef is shown giving the "OK" sign--ed.)
_"Believe it or not"_
_RIPLEY'S DISH_
(...)
  "Only," explained the butler, "it isn't spelled as it sounds.  It is
R-I-P-P-L-I.  And it wasn't named for you, for it has been prepared for generations
in Switzerland."

(There are over 1,500 Google hits for "rippli."  Most are in German.  It is
not in the OED--ed.)


THE HOUSEKEEPER'S GUIDE
FOR BRITISH GUIANA AND THE WEST INDIES
Comprising a Collection of Creole and other Recipes.
PUBLISHER: "THE ARGOSY" CO., LTD.,
DEMERARA.
1944

INDEX.
"Coveeched"...59
Conquintay Coo-Coo...137
Foo-Foo...133

Pg. 49:
      CONKIES.
3 large ripe plantains
1 tablespoonful butter
1 tablespoonful lard
Sugar to taste
A little nutmeg
Powdered cinnamon
Some raw conquintay flour
A green plantain leaf
   Boil 3 large ripe plantains in salted water.  When cooked press fine with
a fork, add a tablespoonful of melted butter, the same of lard, sugar to
taste, a grate of nutmeg and some powdered cinnamon and thicken to a stiff paste
with raw conquintay flour.  Take a green plantain leaf (it must not be too old),
lay it on a warm stove to make it limp, take away the rib and tear the leaf
part in pieces large enough to hold a spoonful of the mixture and fold into
little parcels.  Tie up each securely with a string of the dry "shag" of the
plantain.  Have ready a pot with boiling water and drop the cookies in.  Let them
boil for about an hour.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 12:46:34 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:46:34 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20far=20out...?=
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.084634.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 8/9/03 9:38:16 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes:


> "Everyone generalizes from a sample of one. At least, I do."
> ? ? ? ? -- Steven K. Z. Brust
> 

Brust should have checked with me before publishing this conclusion.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Sep  5 14:46:59 2003
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:46:59 -0400
Subject: gets risen
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.104659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just heard on CNN:

... gets risen ...

(should have been) ... gets raised ....

When, if ever, should rise~raise confusions be recognized in desk
dictionaries of standard English?  Should such problems be noted in
learner's (non-native speaker) dictionaries?

Clearly, when native speakers in their sometimes "sloppy" use of the
language may mislead "new" speakers of English.  Am I being too
prescriptive?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From cceble at EMAIL.UNC.EDU  Fri Sep  5 15:15:45 2003
From: cceble at EMAIL.UNC.EDU (Connie Eble)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:15:45 -0400
Subject: New word?  prosititots
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.111545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Prostitots has been in use on college campuses for a couple of
semesters, at least, as well as sorostitutes (sorority+prostitues).
                                        Connie Eble


Dale Coye wrote:
>
> We were talking today about the movie "Thirteen" (pretty difficult for a
> parent to watch) and one of my students said that even since they were in junior
> high the girls fashions have gotten out of hand with the heavy makeup and lots
> of flesh showing, to which another student replied that where she's from in NJ
> parents have started dressing their kids up in halter tops when they're
> toddlers, and that she's heard these kids refered to as "prostitots".  Sounds like
> a journalist's coinage...
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ


From AHami93942 at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  5 17:15:35 2003
From: AHami93942 at AOL.COM (Anne Marie Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:15:35 -0400
Subject: pwn
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.131535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My husband is interested in the etymology of the word "pwn" used in online gaming to denote "ownership" of a person. A list of comments on that subject by PlanetSide members follows. Any additional ideas or evidence in support of the ideas presented below?

Thanks,

Anne Marie Hamilton-Brehm
Digital Library of Georgia

Original query:

Was wondering if someone could please bring me up to speed on what appears to be an important piece of jargonology, "pwn".
First, how do you pronounce it?

Second, what *exactly* does it mean? From context, it appears to be a particulary humiliating form of being "owned". And the latter appears to be a reference to slavery?

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.


Khalez
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 10:41 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teh prigin pf "pwn" cpmes frpm teh fact taht pn teh keybpardz teh keyz fpr 'p' iz right next tp 'o'.
After a while it simply became l33tz0r.


cynicalsaint
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 11:54 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to put it a bit more clearly:
to have "owned" someone is to basically kicked their ass. "pwned" is the same thing as "owned" but since the the p key is right by the o key people commonly typed the word "pwned" instead of "owned" as somewhere down the line it became "cool" to use "pwn" in place of "own"


BigJaun
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 01:06 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is evolving constantly.
I think "pwnt" is the most effective own that can be dealt.
level 65!!!

C0braC0mmander
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-03-2003 01:33 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was always told that the "p" stood for PLAYER
thus,

If you were pwn'd you were "Player Owned"

a.k.a.

You showed such a lack of skill (or the other player showed so much skill) that you were that players b*tch.

Although this is a term I have never personally used, that's the way it was explaned to me after I was called that many, many times.


Gengoro
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-04-2003 10:40 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok guys Im gonna clear this up for everyone once and for all. I hear this question alot and noone ever seems to know the correct answer.
Today the word "Pwnd" is used when someone suffers a humiliating defeat. I.E. Pure + Ownage = Pwnage. BUT! This is not where the word originated.

Many people believe that pwned came from a sloppy typer who accidently hit the "p" key when trying to spell Own. (Being that the "p" is adjacent to the "o" key)

This is the true origin of PWNED! and it may dissapoint some of you.

PWN! is the sound that the nailgun makes in the old game Quake. and you would be considered a super newb if you ever died by it! I.E.

Nailgunuser08: "HAHAHA your ass got PWNED! Newb!"
NewbwhogotPwned: "SHUT UP PHAG!"

I hope this clarifys things for you people. The meaning is the same as people think, but not many know the true origin. now you know! Spread the knowledge!


DrizztTK421
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-04-2003 04:34 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're all wrong (execpt maybe the quake guy) it came from a WCII map in which if you lost it was supposed say "you got owned," but instead said "you got pwned"
BTW: this was a pretty popular map.


Mardicore
PlanetSide Member   posted 09-04-2003 08:58 PM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you gus are ghey

Merkwurdigliebe
PlanetSide Member

  posted 09-05-2003 04:50 AM           user search     report post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget "pwnz0rd."


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Sep  5 22:13:29 2003
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:13:29 -0700
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.151329.0700.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Having lived in Trinidad for some time in the late 1960s we drank mostly rum
with whatever we could cut it with my guess is that a  "green swizzle" is a
drink designed for the tourist trade and not a drink which any native of the
island might drink if only because it would take too much time to do the
mixing.

Rum and 7Up fine, Rum and Coca Cola, Rum straight up, and even that most
disgusting of all drinks rum and coconut water OK  but I am not able to
remember any native Trinidadian who drank any mixed drink which included
such explicit instructions. We just took our rum straight or with the
minimum of mixes.

It is possible that the Brits who worked on the island as employees of oil
companies and who rarely left their compounds and tourists did drink such
complicated concoctions but believe me when I tell you that those of us who
lived outside such protected areas did not if only because we could not
afford to go to a bar which could afford to hire a bar tender who could mix
one for us. James, a Chinese bartender/owner with whom I became a close
friend in Gasparillo would just bring out a bottle of rum with something
like 7Up or a bottle of Carib beer and serve it to us. I do not think that
if anyone had asked James for a  "green swizzle" he would have known what
the hell they were asking him for any more than any other bar tender on the
island except perhaps for those who worked at the Trinidad Hilton.

Us natives and as an antropologist I lived outside the compounds I  have
some credentials on the subject ate and drank all too much on occasion but
believe me that until this thread I had never heard of a  "green swizzle".

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:56 PM
Subject: Green Swizzle (1910)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Green Swizzle (1910)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>    There are 75 Google hits for "Green Swizzle."    Wodehouse mentioned
the
> drink.  This particular swizzle, though famous, is not in the OED.
>
>
>    2 February 1910, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 2:
> _CARYPTON_
>    The Green Swizzle of the West Indies; a combination of Rum, Lime Juice,
&
> c., that will please the palate of the most fastidious; a favorite drink
for
> afternoon teas and receptions.
>    Per bottle, $1.50
> To Kalon Wine Co.
> 615 14th St., N. W.
>
>
> THE PATH PF THE CONQUISTADORES:
> TRINIDAD AND VENEZUELAN GUIANA
> by Lindon Bates, Jr.
> Boston:  Houghton Mifflin Company
> 1912
>
> Pg. 72:  We are introduced to the renowned "green swizzle"--a liquid whose
> translucent tinge fills the bottom of the glass, the green shading
gradually
> into the dark red of bitters near the surface.  Gin, lime, and soda have
entered
> into its making, and the star-shaped swizzle-stick has been twirled within
it.
>  Its taste is unique; its action _suaviter in modo, fortiter in re_.
>    Green swizzles have a marked effect on people's conversational ability.
> Stevenson recounts stories of his start in the Indian Civil Service, under
Sir
> WIlliam Willcox,...


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Sep  5 19:53:52 2003
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:53:52 -0500
Subject: chair search announcement
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.145352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Chair
Lewis Department of Humanities, Illinois Institute of Technology,
Chicago, seeks a teacher-scholar in a humanistic discipline. The
ideal candidate will have administrative experience demonstrating the
ability to lead and take advantage of emerging opportunities. We are
especially interested in candidates whose research and teaching
complement the department's current strengths in the humanistic study
of science, technology, architecture, and the city.

IIT is a mid-sized, private, PhD-granting university with an
international student body. IIT is known for its research and
education in engineering, science, architecture, law, design,
computer science, psychology and business.

The humanities department offers a BS degree in Humanities as well as
BS, MS and PhD degrees in technical communication and information
architecture. It also offers undergraduate general education courses
in history, art and architectural history, philosophy, literature,
language, and communication.

To be filled at the level of full professor. Salary: competitive.
Reviews begin in late October and continue until the position is
filled.

Please send letter of interest and cv as attachments to
segerst at iit.edu or mail to: Professor Ullica Segerstrale, Search
Committee Chair, Department of Social Sciences, 116 Siegel Hall,
Illinois Institute of Technology, 3301 South Dearborn Street,
Chicago, IL 60616. Please include e-mail address.

AA/EOE
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep  6 00:10:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:10:39 -0400
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.201039.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My local paper, the Akron Beacon Journal, has been running a series of Ohio
snippets this year, as it's the 200th Anniv. of our "founding."

I feel as frustrated as Barry, because they write things that are just not
true.  And I email them, telling them to call me, but they just don't give
me no respect.

So, today's was about the Ohio company who made "jeeps" for WWII.  And they
say that "jeep" comes from "G.P."=General Purpose.  Which probably isn't
true.  But this post isn't about the military vehicle.  It's about
airplanes.

But, one last bit of vitriol.  Ancestry.com's search engine sucks the big
one.  Barry and I and Jonathon  Green can tell you this, but until you try
to find things over there, you JUST CAN'T UNDERSTAND.   But when you do,
it's like hitting the lottery.  (or having your teenager finally realize
that you've gotten smarter as he got older :) )

May 31, 1937, the Helena(MT.) Independent.  Page number is indistinct.
               AIR SPEED PILOT HAS CLOSE CALL IN CRASH
St. Louis, May 30.  (AP)  Art Crester narrowly escaped a crash today when
the motor of his cream-colored "Jeep" quit on the takeoff for a 50-mile race
at the St. Louis Air show."

Now the paper is just wrong about the pilot's name--his name was Art
CHESTER,  a very famous pilot who was a leading racer in the National Air
Races which were the rage in the 1930's.

After Googling for a few hours about Art Chester, and doing some
extrapolation, I've come up with the following theory, and a few additional
facts.

Art Chester seems to have been one of the very top air racers starting about
1932.  His plane that he was using in the 1936-37 season was referred to as
the "Jeep," as the cite I gave proves.  Chester,  in about 1938 started
showing up at the air races in a plane he called the "Goon." (see where I'm
going with this......?)

So I infer that the name "Jeep" for an airplane was originated by Chester as
a tribute to the Popeye character introduced in early 1936--Eugene the Jeep.

There is always the possiblity that "jeep" in reference to an airplane was
derived from a previous military useage.

Sam Clements


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep  6 00:16:24 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:16:24 -0400
Subject: Jeep--addenda
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.201624.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As usual, I forgot to post WHAT I'm suggesting that I've antedated.

OED has NO listing of the airplane sense that I listed.

HDAS had 1941


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep  6 01:42:38 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:42:38 -0500
Subject: gets risen
In-Reply-To: <msg59034.thr-174ecb1.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.204238.0500.>

David,

My intro grad linguistics class is regularly a mix of foreign and US
students, most of the foreign ones having degrees and experience in TESOL
abroad.  They are consistently more prescriptive than American students and
are frequently nonplussed at some of the issues that come up, for example,
in Bauer and Trudgill's Language Myths.  The debate between Trudgill and
Halpern on "infer" vs. "imply" puzzles them because they can't imagine an
issue arising about the use of these words.  Once it's explained, they're
still puzzled as to why teachers don't just insist on correct usage.

I don't think you're being too prescriptive.  You're recognizing the reality
that English
teaching faces globally, that English is taught strictly as one of the
standard variants and nothing else is even mentioned.  If another variant
comes up at all, it's by means of negative comparison.  While we can hope to
have some influence on schools in this country and in Britain, and projects
like Rebecca Wheeler's in Newport, VA, show considerable promise, I don't
think we'll have any impact at all on ESL and EFL teaching abroad.

As to "gets risen", it sounds something like an exception to one of
Kurylowicz's Laws of Analogy or one of Manczak's variations on them, that a
regularized form tends to be used in new constructions.  Neither K or M says
anything explicit about new lexical collocations, but it's in the spirit of
their generalizations.  We'd expect "raised" to replace "risen" with "get",
so "get risen" is odd.  It's probably worth a usage note in an ESL
dictionary.

Herb

> Just heard on CNN:
>
> ... gets risen ...
>
> (should have been) ... gets raised ....
>
> When, if ever, should rise~raise confusions be recognized in desk
> dictionaries of standard English?  Should such problems be noted in
> learner's (non-native speaker) dictionaries?
>
> Clearly, when native speakers in their sometimes "sloppy" use of the
> language may mislead "new" speakers of English.  Am I being too
> prescriptive?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com

barnhart at highlands.com


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep  6 01:52:15 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:52:15 -0500
Subject: New folk etymology
In-Reply-To: <3F58A8A1.49730C0F@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.205215.0500.>

In an article on the BBC News web siteabout last night's debates, Justin
Webb, BBC Washington correspondent writes, "But low and behold things have
changed."  He's writing about Sen. John Carey [sic].

Herb


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Sat Sep  6 03:14:10 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:14:10 -0500
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.5.SEP.2003.221410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20030905/d4d16a32/attachment.htm>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 05:39:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:39:36 EDT
Subject: Wet Clothes/Dry Martini (1946, 1947)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.013936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Ancestry.com.  Perhaps the LOS ANGELES TIMES will have something,
when ProQuest reaches the 1930s and 1940s.


   14 January 1946, BERKSHIRE EVENING EAGLE (Pittsfield, Berkshire, Mass.),
pg. 10, col. 7:
_Benchley at Sea_
   On the whole, his (Bob Benchley's) remarks were too evanescent for
quotation.  He didn't originate "I've got to get out of these wet clothes and into a
dry Martini."  That was printed by an obscure California columnist and picked
up by a movie press agent, who attributed it to Benchley, to Benchley's
indignation.  One remark that he unquestionably did make was recorded during the
war.  He came out of a night club one evening and, tapping a uniformed figure on
the shoulder, said, "Get me a cab."  The uniformed figure turned around
furiously and informed him that he was not a doorman but a rear admiral.  "O.K.,"
said Benchley.  "Get me a battleship."--_The New Yorker_.

   3 September 1947, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg. 11?, col. 4:
_Benchley Remembered_  (By columnist Earl WIlson--ed.)
(...)  I reminded him that day (1944--ed.), in his big suite at the Royalton,
of his famous line, "I must get out of these wet clothes and into a dry
martini."
   "I didn't say it," he said.  "Somebody else did."
   He'd merely repeated it and somebody gave him credit, he said--and I think
now how much bigger he was than the guys who are always yelling to you that
was THEIR gag, Mr. Columnist.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 07:22:31 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 03:22:31 EDT
Subject: Long Time Between Drinks (1862)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.032231.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Long time between drinks" is one of the most famous of American drinking
phrases.  Allegedly, this occurred in a conversation between the governors of
North and South Carolina.  As usual, no one has a citation.
   Below is a citation from a UNC-Chapel Hill Clipping File.  I looked at
that clipping when I visited Chapel Hill about nine years ago.  Don't ask me to
look for my notes. I think the story traces it to the 1830s or 1840s, IIRC.
   The 2002 CHARLOTTE OBSERVER article, below, that dates the phrase to the
Reconstruction is clearly wrong.
   Could the phrase date to 1813, as the last two cites below imply?
   The first citation I found (I'll check APS Online again later) is 1862.
We don't have much stuff from the 1820s and 1830s, but we have stuff from the
1840s, such as the BROOKLYN EAGLE, and from the 1850s, such as the NEW YORK
TIMES.  Ancestry has been adding 1830s and 1840s dates.
    I have my doubts about 1813.    Our first cite is 1862.  That's a "long
time between citations."



(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Bagby, George William
Title: Editor's Table
Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department
of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 34, Issue 12, Dec 1862, pp.687-698
Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0693">Editor's Table, George William Bagby, pp.687-698</A>
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0698">Page 692</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
  "'It said that it was' what?" inquired Gen. Polk.
   _A d--d long time between drinks!_


(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Marcy, Randolph Barnes, 1812-1887.
Title: Border reminiscences.
Publication date: 1872.
Collection: Making of America Books
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000009">Page VII - Table of Contents</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000013">Page XI</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEL8464.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000092">Page 90</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   28 June 1895, THE LANDMARK (Statesville, NC), pg. 2, col. 4:
   ...but, in the language of the ancient and honorable Governor of North
Carolina, "It was a long time between drinks," and your readers were thirsty for
the news.


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Morford, Henry, (1823-1881): Red-tape and Pigeon-hole Generals (1864) 1 match
in 1 of 324 pages
<A HREF="http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=ccabe7b113c0f6a50273b718aef5088b;rgn=div1;q1=long%20time%20between%20drinks;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0076;node=Wright2-0076%3A6">CHAPTER IV.</A>
ion. / "By the way, the recollection of that effort to swallow makes my
throat dry, and it's a long time between drinks." / Another round at the bottle,
and Tom resumed. / "Well, work I


(GOOGLE)
http://aff.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?zcode=Z3702
    Posted on Wed, Mar. 06, 2002    The Charlotte Observer
Let's make a deal
(...)
There's a lovely story about a meeting of the governors of the two states
during Reconstruction, and it turns on this question: What did the governor of
South Carolina say to the governor of North Carolina? Gov. James Orr reputedly
said to Jonathan Worth, "The governor of South Carolina feels constrained to
say to the governor of North Carolina, that in these military cabinet counsels,
there is a mighty long time between drinks."


(GOOGLE)
http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/s75/s75Sa.html
North Carolina Collection--Subject Clippings
SUBJECT: Sayings - "It's a long time between drinks"
CALL NO.: CR917 N87
REEL NO.: 38
VOL. NO.: 150
PAGE(S): 330-340 SUBJECT


(GOOGLE)
http://www.cmstory.org/history/hornets/another.htm
In the time of Jackson's birth the boundary line was not known; it was but
vaguely traced through this section of the Waxhaws. Not until May 5, 1813, was
the line actually run. It was on the occasion of the surveying of this line
that the Governor of North Carolina reportedly observed as he mopped his
perspiring brow that "it's been a long time between drinks."


(GOOGLE)
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NCPOLK/2001-08/0998017189>
> > In the time of Jackson's birth the boundary line was not known; it was
> butvaguely traced through this section of the Waxhaws. Not until May 5, 1813, was
> the line actually run. It was on the occasion of the surveying of this line
> that the Governor of North Carolina reportedly observed as he mopped his
> perspiring brow that "it's been a long time between drinks."


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Sat Sep  6 12:27:42 2003
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:27:42 +0800
Subject: Horndog?
In-Reply-To: <200309041918.h84JIWpW026133@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.202742.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google returns 11,800 entries.

I'm a reasonably polite long-time lay lurker here.
No DARE in hand. Curious of the origin of this one.

[Obviously a contraction of "horny dog" which itself
seems obscure.]

Thanks,
Russ
...................................................
Cahn's Axiom:
        When all else fails, read the instructions.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep  6 14:31:25 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:31:25 -0400
Subject: Seroco, acronym (1902)
In-Reply-To: <20030903195011.GC24158@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.103125.0400.>

> I think you'll find _Nabisco_ from the same era, or slightly
> earlier (1898 is the date that sticks in mind, but I'm too
> lazy to look it up).

The National Biscuit Company was established in 1898. "Nabisco" was
registered as a trademark in 1901 (www.uspto.gov); so it beats "Seroco" by a
year--at least until someone finds an 1890s cite for "Seroco," which I think
is likely.

> Richard Bailey cites an example of _colinda_ for the _Colonial
> and Indian Exhibition_ in 1886 in his book _Nineteenth-Century
> English._

Thanks. I'll have to research this one.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 16:05:58 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:05:58 EDT
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.120558.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague here in North Carolina writes:

<<I'm writing about Wal-Mart, the
retailing giant, and I'm trying to track down the roots of the phrase,
"everyday low prices." It's one of their long-standing slogans.>>

He has checked the obvious sources, including Nexis back to the beginning.
Anyone done anyh research on this particular item?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 17:47:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:47:39 EDT
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.134739.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I wouldn't check Nexis.
   The bad search engine of newspaperarchive.com didn't seem to turn up
anything before 1928, but you can re-check.  Similar phrases occurred before this
time, however.  Several stores in the 1930s and 1940s and 1950s regularly used
the "everyday low prices" phrase in ads--before Walmart.


   23 November 1890, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION (GA), pg. 7?, col. 6:
   We thank Atlanta and all her vicinity for their most excellent patronage,
and we promise to more and more deserve your esteem.  Our goods are the
choicest to be found, and yet the prices are the very lowest.  We have the plain
American everyday figures on everything.  We are proud of our low prices.  We
don't hide our prices.
("THE FAIR," The One-Price, Plain-Figure House of Atlanta, 74, 76 and 78
Whitehall St.)


   23 February 1928, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5?, col. 4:
Everyday Low Prices That Prevail Here
(The John Lersch Company.  There are over 1,000 more hits in this
newspaper--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep  6 18:05:46 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:05:46 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20History=20of=20the=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?phrase=20<<Everyday=20Low=20Prices>>=20(1928)?=
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.140546.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks very much, Barry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sat Sep  6 19:18:35 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:18:35 -0400
Subject: antedating of "Jeep" (the airplane meaning) (1937)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.151835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        If Art Chester was naming his airplanes Jeep and Goon (as he was), then he clearly had in mind the characters Eugene the Jeep and Alice the Goon in the then enormously popular Thimble Theatre comic strip (aka Popeye, the Sailorman), written and drawn by E.C. Segar.  HDAS says that the Jeep first appeared on March 3, 1936, while the Straight Dope says March 16, 1936.  It is the Straight Dope that is correct.

        The strip is reprinted in The Complete E.C. Segar Popeye, Volume 10:  Dailies 1935 - 1937 (Rick Marschall ed. 1990).  Near the end of a storyline entitled "You Can't Expect April Showers from War Clouds" (Segar often named his storylines), about a war between Brutia and Popeye's own Spinachova, Segar inserted a teaser in the last panel on March 16, 1936.  The panel shows a wooden crate with a cat-like tail sticking out vertically through a hole in the top.  The panel is captioned:

>>What is a "Jeep"
Hah! If you owned one
your troubles would
be over - Coming -
"Eugene the Jeep"<<

There are also the words "Jeep's tail," with an arrow pointing to the tail, and the crate is labeled "To Olive Oyl."  All of these words are, of course, in all capital letters, in normal comic strip style.

        The rest of the jeep did not make an appearance until April 1, 1936, when Eugene finally came out of his box.  The jeep resembled a small, spotted dog, but walked on its hind legs.  Its name derived from its only cry, "jeep!"  It had fourth-dimensional powers, including the ability to tell the future and to teleport.  It came from darkest Africa and ate only orchids.

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 00:44:17 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:44:17 -0400
Subject: Cockroach Theory (1990)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.204417.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COCKROACH THEORY
  .
    I heard this again just recently.  It's also known as the "one cockroach theory"  (There's never just one.)  Also, in business theory, "bad news travels in bunches."  It's not recorded yet?
    Did I do this right?  There's not a single hit on the WALL STREET JOURNAL's full text?...Ancestry.com didn't help (see below)...Investopedia.com has a nice selection of financial "buzz words" that includes this term.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
`Cockroach' stocks: Bug and boon:[FINAL Edition]
Paul Wiseman. USA Today (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Arlington, Va.: Jan 30, 1990.  pg. 03.B
   Wall Street is crawling with cockroaches these days - ``cockroach stocks,'' that is.

   A company wins that dubious distinction simply by coming out with surprising quarterly earnings. ``The theory is that, like cockroaches, you rarely see only one earnings surprise,'' explains Melissa R. Brown, director of quantitative analysis at Prudential-Bache Securities, where the cockroach label originated.

   If a company posts bad news one quarter, chances are 35% to 40% that it will issue another disappointment the next. Same goes for positive earnings surprises, Brown says.

   Those odds are good enough for Brown to recommend selling a stock - or going short in it - the first time it's hit with disappointing earnings (provided there's no other reason to hold on). Likewise, it's often a good idea to buy a stock after an unexpectedly rosy report. After the second surprise comes out, Wall Street usually catches on: Analysts start rewriting their earnings estimates and changing their recommendations, she says.

   Other market watchers also subscribe to the cockroach theory. ``We tend to agree with the adage, `There is no such thing as one earnings surprise,''' PaineWebber's Edward M. Kerschner wrote in a report earlier this month.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Investors tiptoe through earnings minefield:[FINAL Edition]
James Kim. USA Today (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Arlington, Va.: Mar 22, 1991.  pg. 01.B
(...)
Two reasons:

   -  The size of these ``earnings bummers,'' as Mark Stumpp, market analyst at PDI Strategies, calls them, are taking traders by surprise. IBM didn't say its earnings would be 5% lower this quarter than last year. It said earnings would be down 50%.

   -  The economic recovery may be in jeopardy. If earnings are worse than expected this quarter,  they might be worse  in the second and third quarters, too. Maybe the recession won't end this summer after all.

   It's impossible to know which companies are most vulnerable. Analysts who follow specific stocks have been as surprised as anyone by the bad news this week.

   Stumpp says be aware of the ``cockroach theory - if there's one around, there are usually others.'' If an industry leader is suffering, it's a good bet that others are in the same position. Given the IBM news, technology firms  are one danger zone.



 (GOOGLE GROUPS)
 From: Maurice E. Suhre (suhre at meltami.dsd.trw.com)
 Subject: Re: Could somebody please explain stocks with extremely high yields?
 Newsgroups: misc.invest
 Date: 1992-01-22 15:38:17 PST
 (...)
 It does lead to the oddity that a company omits, say, $1M in dividends and subsequently sees the market capitalization drop $100M!  Or some such numbers.  This phenomena may be a results of the cockroach theory of investing :-)  To wit: when you see one cockroach, there are usually a lot more that you don't see.  Similary, when an item of bad news comes out, there may a lot more in the wings.  So there are a lot of sellerson the first piece of bad news.-- Maurice Suhresuhre at trwrb.dsd.trw.com


 (ANCESTRY.COM)
    14 November 1973, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 26?, col. 1:
    Texas Christian, the original cockroach, also gets a chance to prove Darrell Royal's cockroach theory.  Royal, of course, is the Texas coach whose team can clinch a sixth consecutive trip to the Cotton Bowl and a tie for the Southwest Conference championship by defeating TCU.
    "What a cockroach doesn't eat or carry off," Royal said about TCU--and spoilers in general--a few years back, "it falls into and messes up."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE KILL ME (continued)

   No one checks.  No one can Google.  No one?  NO ONE??
   Once, in a million zillion years, just once, ONCE, ever, can my work be there, and my name, too?


Copyright 2003 CanWest Interactive, a division of
CanWest Global Communications Corp.
All Rights Reserved
Times Colonist (Victoria)
September 3, 2003 Wednesday Final Edition
SECTION: Life; Pleasures of the Table; Pg. D1

LENGTH: 680 words

HEADLINE: The hot dog and its humble beginnings

SOURCE: Times Colonist

BYLINE: Pam Freir

 BODY:
The names Charles Feltman and Nathan Handwerker mean nothing to most people - a curious oversight indeed considering their culinary legacy: it was these two guys with forgettable names who introduced a snack-smitten North American public to the hot dog.

Feltman, a German immigrant, started it all in the 1880s. He had a pie stand on Coney Island and was doing pretty well until hotels started popping up everywhere and eating into his business. So he switched from meat pies to sausages. He made them himself with ground beef and pork, pork juice, ginger, mustard, paprika and various other unrecorded spices. They were smoke cured, cooked in hot water, and served in a bun with homemade mustard and sauerkraut. He sold them for 10 cents each and the beach crowd ate them up. But Feltman didn't call them hot dogs. They were frankfurters.

In fact, they went by various names: frankfurters, weiners, red hots and even, because of their doggie-like configuration, dachshund sausages. The name frankfurter comes from what many believe to be its city of origin: Frankfurt. Wiener, on the other hand, suggests Viennese roots. But the frankfurter's legitimate birthplace remains a puzzle. In fact, disclaimers abound: in Frankfurt it's called a wiener. And in Vienna it's called a frankfurter. But the name hot dog is undeniably and proudly American. And that's another story.

The hot dog's official christening was an inadvertent one. A New York cartoonist named Tad Dorgan happened to be at a New York Giants' game in 1901 when this novel snack - the dachshund sausage - made its ballpark debut. Impressed, Dorgan did a cartoon commemorating the event. However, he didn't know how to spell dachshund so he called them hot dogs instead. And that's how they've been known ever since.
(...)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep  7 01:14:59 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:14:59 -0400
Subject: Cockroach Theory (1990)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.211459.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Here's an earlier cockroach usage.  This is from the 12/9/87 Wall Street Journal:

        >>Other academics and professional investors have their own
favorite rules for deciding when to sell. Melissa Brown,
director of quantitative research at Prudential-Bache
Securities Inc., for instance, generally recommends selling a
stock when the company's earnings fall below analysts'
expectations. "Like cockroaches, you rarely see just one
earnings surprise," she says. <<

        For a nonfinancial cite, here's the 8/17/85 Dallas Morning News:

        >>"The idea is that if you turn on the kitchen light late one night
and you see one cockroach or one mouse scurry across the floor, the
automatic assumption is that there must be 10 or 12 more running
around somewhere,' Sanders wrote, explaining what he calls his
"Rat/Roach Theory.'<<


John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 01:40:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:40:45 -0400
Subject: Metagee/Metemgee (1957); Carnival slang in LA TIMES (1928)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.SEP.2003.214045.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CARNIVAL SLANG IN _LOS ANGELES TIMES_

   For today's ProQuest check, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE still isn't here.  PUCK is still not here on APS ONLINE.  The LOS ANGELES TIMES is up to 1929, but the last five years of it have gaps.  The following article is interesting, but can't be viewed.
   Hurry up, guys!  Christmas is coming!


Carnival Life Has Colorful Slang of Own
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 25, 1928.  pg. c19, 1 pgs
Text Word Count
241

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
METAGEE/METEMGEE

   I should have "roti" prepared for you in about an hour.
   "Metagee" was corrected/added to the OED in December 2002.  "In Guyana: a thick stew containing vegetables, fish, salted meat, and coconut milk, and having a distinctive grey colour.  Cf. Sancocho _n_."  The first citation is 1965.  Don't look to closely at "sancocho," because we know that's 100 years off.


THE FARMER'S FOOD MANUAL:
A RECIPE BOOK FOR THE WEST INDIES
Prepared and published with the help and collaboration of
THE JAMAICA SOCIAL WELFARE COMMISSION
by the
JAMAICA AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY
Printed by
ROBERT MACLEHOSE & CO. LTD.
THE UNIVERSITY PRESS, GLASGOW
SCOTLAND
1957

Pg. 203:  CHAPTER XXIV  _West Indian Dishes_
ANTIGUA
Conkie...
BARBADOS
White Pudding...

Pg. 204:
BRITISH GUIANA
_Metemgee or Metagee_
1 lb. green plantain
2 small eddoes (cocoes)
1 small coconut
1/4 lb. yam
1/4 lb. cassava
4 ochroes
1/4 lb. pumpkin
1/4 lb. saltfish
1/4 lb. mixed meat (saltbeef and pig's tail)
1/2 onion
1 tomato
1/4 of a hot pepper
1 sprig thyme
   _Method._  1. Clean and cut up mixed meat.  Saute (fry lightly) and then boil in 1/4 cup water for 20 minutes.  2. Clean and soak saltfish for 20 minutes.  3. Scrub, wash and peel vegetables.  4. Grate coconut and add 1/2 pint water.  Squeeze thoroughly, then strain off the milk.  5. Remove pot from flame and pack vegetables, saltfish and seasoning in layers, putting the "hardest" vegetable (plantain) at the bottom, and the saltfish on top.  6. Add the coconut milk and return the pot to the flame and simmer for 30 minutes.  7. Put pumpkin and ochroes on top of vegetables and allow to steam for the last 10 minutes.
   Serves: Three
Total time of preparation:   1 hour, 20 minutes.
Use of dish:                         Main meal:   supper, lunch.
Food value:                         Balanced meal forenergy, body building.
Who eats it:                         Adults and children.
When:                                 Lunch, supper.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 13:02:15 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:02:15 EDT
Subject: Long Time Between Drinks (1862)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.090215.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sat, 6 Sep 2003 03:22:31 EDT, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
(pseud. for Barry Popik) writes:

>  (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
>  Author: Bagby, George William
>  Title: Editor's Table
>  Publication Info.: Southern literary messenger; devoted to every department
>  of literature and the fine arts. / Volume 34, Issue 12, Dec 1862,
pp.687-698
>  Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
>  <A
HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%2
0between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0693">
Editor's Table, George William Bagby, pp.687-698</A>
>  <A
HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=364128506df14e5b6efc499dad47a158;q1=long%20time%2
0between%20drinks;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf2679.0034.012;view=image;seq=0698">
Page 692</A>  - 1 term matching "long time between drinks"
>    "'It said that it was' what?" inquired Gen. Polk.
>     _A d--d long time between drinks!_

I find this quote, not necessarily suspicious, but still rather
disconcerting, considering that Polk, before he became a Confederate general, was an
Episcopal bishop.

       - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 21:23:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:23:48 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" on web; Piece de resistance (1789); Roti
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.172348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"WINDY CITY" ON WEB

   My latest "Windy City" findings are on the web (www.orionjeweb.com), on that "Chicago" guy's page:


  Subj:    Re: Windy City Myth
  Date:    9/7/2003 4:06:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "carljweber" <carljweber at email.msn.com>
  To:    <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Cc:    <gcohen at umr.edu>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry
Thanks for the scans. Here's what I've come up with.

Carl
orionjeweb.com


   I have to tell him a few things, such as that COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY is not an ADS publication.  But it's OK.
   The big question here is, why isn't this on the Chicago Public Library's web page?  Why isn't it on the Newberry Library's web page?  Why isn't it on the Chicago Historical Society's web page?
   Why does the CPL's web page continue to state something (the NEW YORK SUN 1893 World's Fair myth) it knows is not true?
   Why, seven years after I gave my papers (for free, of course) to the CHS, do I not even get a kind word, from anyone, ever?
   We're all waiting for ProQuest's digitized CHICAGO TRIBUNE, due any day now.  But what I've gone through all these years, without a single kind word, shouldn't happen to a dead cow.


---------------------------------------------------------------
PIECE DE RESISTANCE

   Ah, the _piece de resistance_.  Merriam-Webster has 1839?  OED has 1797 in parens.
   From "drama" on Literature Online (LION):


Cumberland, Richard, 1732-1811 [Author Record]
The imposters (1789) 203Kb
THE IMPOSTORS: A COMEDY. PERFORMED AT THE THEATRE ROYAL DRURY LANE. 202Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 195Kb
ACT I. 32Kb
...table; plain Dorothy is the piece de resistance at the foot...

(More detail below--ed.)
L. Janus.
Hold there, friend Jack! if we are / both to play the same game, he that's first up / may chance to spoil the other's hand. /

Polyc.
Content yourself about that, and tho' / [325] you are Harry Singleton every where else, you / shall be Lord Janus here, and have all your privileges / of being first serv'd; then I hope your /

[Page 13]
humble servant may have leave to help himself: / Fair Eleanor is the dish of dainties at the head of / the table; plain Dorothy is the piece de resistance / at the foot of it. /

---------------------------------------------------------------
ROTI

   Merriam-Webster has 1919 for "roti."  OED has 1920.
   I noticed an article about East Indians in Trinidad in the July 1907 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.  I was at NYU yesterday, and announced that I'd have an antedate within a few minutes.  I'd just have to go upstairs and check a few pages.  This is an important food; NYC now has many restaurants for Carbibbean/West Indian food.
   I checked the NYU shelves.  Every volume of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC was there--every one _except_ 1907.  I looked at every desk.  Nowhere.  Nothing is ever easy.
   So now I'm at Columbia.  It has the 1907 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.  "Roti" isn't there.
   I guess we'll have to wait for THE GLEANER project on newspaperarchive.com.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep  7 22:51:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:51:36 -0400
Subject: Garlic Knots (1988)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.185136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I re-checked CUE's annual Long Island Dining Guide for the 1960s and 1970s, but I didn't see "garlic knots."
   ProQuest has signed an agreement to do NEWSDAY (eventually); NEWSDAY's current achives are to 1985 only.
   FACTIVA wasn't available to me at NYU (thanks, NYU), but it's here at Columbia.  The 1978 article perhaps is not the knot we know.


(FACTIVA)
FEATURES TRAVEL
An aromatic welcome to world garlic capital
Nino Lo Bello
665 words
18 November 1978
The Globe and Mail
P47; (ILLUST)
English
All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All rights reserved.

To get to the Garlic Capital of the world, you don't need a road map. Just follow your nose . .

Here in this tiny village of 3,000 garlic growers, some four hours north of Paris near the Belgian border, garlic is passionately revered for its character and taste. Let it be said that if you have an anti-garlic prejudice, do your tourism in this garlicky hub and learn why Arleux scorns the scorners of the Lilicea, genus Allium sativum.

Yes, you better believe it - garlic is a member of the lily family, along with onions, scallions, chives and leeks. The wondrous, eccentric white bulb, which has as many friends as it has enemies, is Item A in Arleux the whole year round, but during the middle of December this village stages a festival in honor of the smelly epicurean herb, climaxed by the election of Miss Garlic.

The reigning Garlic Queen is 18-year-old Nadine Leroux, who works as a riverboat hostess. Besides all the honor, the curvy blonde is given her weight in garlic (126 lbs.) as a prize - which, she says, she intends to eat. Standing a safe, non-asphyxiating three feet away, she tells members of the press that she is wild about garlic, eats it twice a day and carries the raw cloves in her purse at all times. No, she doesn't have a fiance, but she's not worried because everybody in Arleux eats garlic and when two people have eaten garlic, they're unaware of each other's breath.

During the annual garlic festival, stalls are set up on Arleux's winding main street, all of which dispense garlicky products and garlicky hot dishes of every kind. One stand gives out free bowls of garlic soup to any tourist who isn't French. Other stalls go in for such take-home specialties as garlic cheeses and sausages, dried and smoked garlic, garlands of braided garlic bulbs (some of which are three feet long) and hot slices of garlic bread.

The festival is climaxed in the evening with a garlic ball in the town hall, sumptuously decorated with stringed garlic knots (what else?).
(...)


(FACTIVA)
FOOD
Irresistible Garlic Knots Twists of garlic are cheap and popular munchies in the bread baskets at several local restaurants
By Marie Bianco
908 words
6 July 1988
Newsday
NASSAU AND SUFFOLK
03
English
(Copyright Newsday Inc., 1988)

SIMPLE ingredients - flour, water, yeast. It's how the cook treats these elements that determines whether French baguettes or pita bread will make an appearance on the dinner table.

But if your name is Frank Zitoli, rest assured that the bread basket will include garlic knots, tiny morsels of bread tossed with olive oil, lots of fresh garlic and grated Romano cheese. In a word - irresistible.

"My Uncle Mike first introduced me to them,"said Zitoli, referring to Michael Prudente, co-owner of Prudente's restaurant in Island Park. Prudente's garlic knots were a slightly different shape, said Zitoli "but when he asked me what I thought of them, I told him they were great."

Zitoli loved garlic knots, but would the public? At the time, he owned Pizza Delight in Plainview. "I put a bowl of them on the counter and offered them free to customers. I waited for their reaction. As soon as a person would pop one into his mouth, his eyes would light up and a smile would come to his face."

That was 10 years ago, and he sold thousands at 10 cents a piece.

But Zitoli didn't stop there. He splits garlic knots and stuffs them with provolone, prosciutto or sausage. He stuffs the dough with slivers of cheese before baking, adds whole-wheat flour, substitutes semolina. For champagne parties at his restaurant, Franina, in Syosset, Zitoli tucks in smoked tuna and smoked salmon. He has gone as far as presenting filled garlic knots in the shape of wreaths and Christmas trees.

"I feel they are a success because I fuss with the details," he said. "I hire part-time people who do nothing but peel garlic, and the cheese is grated here." Why Romano cheese? "It brings out the flavor of the garlic," he said.

Will garlic knots catch on? Are they the garlic bread of tomorrow? Danny Horton, owner of Victor's Pizza Delight in South Huntington, learned to make garlic knots from the former owners, Zitoli's sister and brother-in-law. At Victor's you can still buy them for a dime apiece or eat them with the daily specials - lasagna, chicken parmesan, ziti. "During a busy day, we can make as many as 1,500 garlic knots," said Horton.

Across Route 110 and down the road at Francesco's Pizzeria, owner Michael Macchia said he believes they're popular because "People love garlic." A regular customer who was waiting for two pizzas to come out of the oven said she picks up garlic knots when she buys pizza and leaves them in the refrigerator as snacks for her children after school. "A few seconds in the microwave makes them taste freshly baked," she said, "and it makes a good alternative to a sugar snack." Macchia charges 15 cents each for garlic knots. "They take a lot of time to make because they're formed by hand," he said.

Zitoli doesn't have a problem employing knotters. When he needs extra hands he calls on his three children, Victor, 13, Elisa, 11, and Alphonso, 8.

Here's Zitoli's recipe. You will have more of the garlic / oil mixture than you need. Save it for the next baking day or brush it onto sliced Italian bread and run it under the broiler. Garlic Knots 1 ounce fresh yeast 1 cup water 1 tablespoon granulated sugar 1 pound all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon salt 3 tablespoons olive oil 4 to 5 large cloves garlic

1/2 cup olive oil

1/2 cup corn oil salt to taste garlic powder to taste

1/4 cup grated Romano cheese

1. Combine yeast, water and sugar in a bowl and allow to proof. Add the flour and salt and mix with an electric mixer until well combined. Add the olive oil. Knead with dough hook for 10 minutes or until dough is smooth.

2. Divide dough into two equal portions. Brush dough with a little extra olive oil on all sides and allow to rise in a shallow pan 60 minutes, covered with plastic wrap, or until double in size. Remove dough and place on a flat surface. Roll each out with a rolling pin into a 6-by-12-inch rectangle. Using a dough scraper, cut each into two 3-by-12-inch rectangles. Cut each rectangle into 12 3-by-1-inch strips.

3. Loosely form each strip into a knot taking care not to stretch the dough. Place formed knots 1 inch apart on a greased baking sheet and bake in a 400-degree oven for 10 to 15 minutes or until lightly browned on top. Remove, place in a large bowl.

4. In a blender, process garlic with olive and corn oils until creamy. As soon as the garlic knots come out of the oven drizzle them with 4 tablespoons of the oil mixture and toss two or three times. Sprinkle with salt and garlic powder and toss until knots are well coated. Sprinkle with Romano cheese and toss once more. Makes about 48 garlic knots.

Newsday Photos by Phillip Davies-1) The Zitoli children - Alphonso, 8, Victor, 13 and Elisa, 11 - stuff the knots, above. 2) Their father, Frank, displays their finished work, right. 3) Frank shows the proper knotting technique, below


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 00:16:57 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:16:57 -0400
Subject: Garlic Knots (1988)
In-Reply-To: <692BF1FA.0F5C0D5C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.201657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:51 PM -0400 9/7/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>(FACTIVA)
>FEATURES TRAVEL
>An aromatic welcome to world garlic capital

You mean to tell me Gilroy, CA isn't the unique World's Garlic
Capital?  They always claim it is.  And they have their own garlic
queen--have had since the early 60's at the latest.  Maybe their and
Arleux's should have a championship playoff or clove-in--the event
described below carries more than a whiff of the similar proceedings
that have been taking place annually in Gilroy for ages.  Wonder
which one was first to call itself "Garlic Capital" (in either
English or French)...

L

>Nino Lo Bello
>665 words
>18 November 1978
>The Globe and Mail
>P47; (ILLUST)
>English
>All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All
>rights reserved.
>
>To get to the Garlic Capital of the world, you don't need a road
>map. Just follow your nose . .
>
>Here in this tiny village of 3,000 garlic growers, some four hours
>north of Paris near the Belgian border, garlic is passionately
>revered for its character and taste. Let it be said that if you have
>an anti-garlic prejudice, do your tourism in this garlicky hub and
>learn why Arleux scorns the scorners of the Lilicea, genus Allium
>sativum.
>
>Yes, you better believe it - garlic is a member of the lily family,
>along with onions, scallions, chives and leeks. The wondrous,
>eccentric white bulb, which has as many friends as it has enemies,
>is Item A in Arleux the whole year round, but during the middle of
>December this village stages a festival in honor of the smelly
>epicurean herb, climaxed by the election of Miss Garlic.
>
>The reigning Garlic Queen is 18-year-old Nadine Leroux, who works as
>a riverboat hostess. Besides all the honor, the curvy blonde is
>given her weight in garlic (126 lbs.) as a prize - which, she says,
>she intends to eat. Standing a safe, non-asphyxiating three feet
>away, she tells members of the press that she is wild about garlic,
>eats it twice a day and carries the raw cloves in her purse at all
>times. No, she doesn't have a fiance, but she's not worried because
>everybody in Arleux eats garlic and when two people have eaten
>garlic, they're unaware of each other's breath.
>
>During the annual garlic festival, stalls are set up on Arleux's
>winding main street, all of which dispense garlicky products and
>garlicky hot dishes of every kind. One stand gives out free bowls of
>garlic soup to any tourist who isn't French. Other stalls go in for
>such take-home specialties as garlic cheeses and sausages, dried and
>smoked garlic, garlands of braided garlic bulbs (some of which are
>three feet long) and hot slices of garlic bread.
>
>The festival is climaxed in the evening with a garlic ball in the
>town hall, sumptuously decorated with stringed garlic knots (what
>else?).
>(...)
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 00:50:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:50:04 -0400
Subject: Things You Should Know (Chicago Tribune, 5 September 2003)
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.205004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Yes, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE got it wrong again...At least this article mentioned Bruce Kraig, also an editor on the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (2004).
  What to do?  Write a letter to the editor?  Done that several times.  They won't publish it.  Write to the ombudsman?  Done that several times.  he doesn't respond.  Write to the Organization of News Ombudsmen (ONO)?  Done that. Attack the CHICAGO TRIBUNE with guns until they tell the truth?  No, I haven't done that.
   Andy Smith (the overall editor of the ENCYCLOPEDIA) earlier this year, translated every bad outcome of mine into something that I did "wrong."  And I'd sort of make fun of that to myself.  My father was dying for twenty years--my first "mistake."  And then my mother was dying--second "mistake."  And then I gave my research to the Chicago Historical Society for free--third "mistake."  And so on--all my "mistakes."
   And the dead cow that got an apology from the Chicago city council--it made all the right moves?  A dead cow?
   Here's another "mistake," just a few weeks ago.  I joined my sister (in Scarsdale, NY) to go swimming.  We talked as she was cleaning cream cheese from her son's CDs.  (He's autistic.)  While she was doing this, he grabbed scissors and was stabbing at his screen window.  "He wants to go out," she told me.  So then we let him out, and HE WALKS INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S HOMES.  "He's looking for more CDS," my sister says.  And I asked if this happens all the time now, and she says yes.
   Just kill me.



Things you should know (but don't):[RedEye Edition]
Chris Malcolm, RedEye. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Sep 5, 2003.  pg. 24
Copyright 2003 by the Chicago Tribune)

CITY INSIDER

If you've entertained friends and relatives from out of town, you've experienced what is called "the big blank."

That's when a visitor asks you a simple question about something local and you have no idea how to answer. You can fake it ("I think that's left over from the World's Fair.") or divert their attention ("Hey look! Horse carriages!"), and more than a few of us have picked this awkward moment as a fine time to stop for lunch.

But the best thing to do is brush up on your hometown trivia and look like the smart urban host that you've always wanted to be.

Chicago is rich in history, and the stories the city can tell stretch well beyond the Water Tower on Michigan Avenue (built in 1869) or Frank Sinatra's "My Kind of Town" (written by two New Yorkers).

So here begins your journey to become the Chicago trivia expert you've always wanted to be.

Regional cuisine

You should know: Just take a New Yorker out for dinner at a Chicago pizza place or go to Los Angeles and ask for a "stuffed pie" and you know this town's deep-dish pizza is different.

But did you know? Why is a Chicago-style hot dog loaded with everything (pickle, tomatoes, etc.)? "It comes from competition back around World War I," said Bruce Kraig, a history professor emeritus at Roosevelt University who has completed a book on the culture of hot dog stands.

Kraig said his research shows that Italian and Greek hot dog stand vendors competed for business by loading up a dog with more stuff back around 1920. This explains why a Chicago-style hot dog has traditional German elements (mustard, celery salt and sour pickles) in addition to Mediterranean add-ons (tomatoes, hot peppers, relish).

And don't forget: In Chicago, you don't use ketchup.

Running with Al Capone

You should know: Al Capone, Chicago's most notorious gangster, ruled the city in the 1920s before he was convicted on tax evasion charges and sent to prison in 1931, first to Atlanta and then to Alcatraz in San Francisco. He is widely acknowledged as having ordered the St. Valentine's Day Massacre in 1929 when seven men were gunned down at a garage at 2122 N. Clark St. The garage is long gone.

But did you know? Capone had headquarters at the Four Deuces at 2222 S. Wabash Ave., the Metropole Hotel at 2300 S. Michigan Ave., and the Lexington Hotel at 2135 S. Michigan Ave. Perhaps a man ahead of his time, he had suburban outposts in Forest View and Cicero.

City of Candy

You should know: Candymakers have made Chicago home over the years, and the first Fannie May candy shop opened in 1920 at 11 N. LaSalle St.

But did you know? At night the city smells like chocolate, thanks to a factory at Blommer Chocolate Company at 600 West Kinzie St. Their small retail store sells 10-pound chocolate bars and discounted bags of broken ones in little bags.

It's easy to get around and yet . . .

You should know: The street numbering system was set in stone in 1910 when planners decided it starts at State Street running north and south and at Madison Street running east and west. Each mile counts as 800, making 100 equal to one-eighth of a mile (or for every Starbucks, whichever comes first). Even numbers are for buildings on the north or west side of a street; odd numbers are on the south and east.

But did you know? Chicago has about 3,900 miles of roads, and while some are known streets, avenues, drives, ways and courts, there's only one difference. Boulevards do not allow trucks or commercial vehicles, according to the Chicago Department of Transportation. Lake Shore Drive is the exception. A city ordinance prohibits commercial trucks and pickup trucks carrying cargo from the city's busy portion of that federal route.

One more thing: Chicago doesn't add many new streets, but when it does, they try to continue a street and carry the name over to preserve the grid. This explains why a street can skip over a few blocks and continue with the same name.

Why 'Windy City' and 'City of Big Shoulders'?

You should know: It's big shoulders because Carl Sandburg's poem "Chicago" says so. Bears linebacker Dick Butkus helped keep the name alive.

But did you know? It's the "windy city," because Chicago and New York were competing for the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition. A New York Sun editorial bashed the "nonsensical claims of that windy city. Its people could not hold a world's fair even if they won it."

One World's Fair or Two?

You should know: Despite the New York Sun's name-calling, Chicago hosted the 1893 event, which left what is now the Museum of Science and Industry. Chicago also hosted the 1933 World's Fair in 1933 ("A Century of Progress"), and it drew millions of people to the city.
(...)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Sep  7 23:18:18 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:18:18 -0500
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.181818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
should worry = I don't care)?

    The item appears below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen


[San Francisco Bulletin]:
March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
[I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
dearly for him].
But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
will not suffer."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 01:20:46 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:20:46 -0400
Subject: "Windy City" on web
In-Reply-To: <37B11478.2B30F102.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.212046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"WINDY CITY" ON WEB
>
>    My latest "Windy City" findings are on the web
>(www.orionjeweb.com), on that "Chicago" guy's page:
>
>
>   Subj:    Re: Windy City Myth
>   Date:    9/7/2003 4:06:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>   From:    "carljweber" <carljweber at email.msn.com>
>   To:    <Bapopik at aol.com>
>   Cc:    <gcohen at umr.edu>
>   Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>Barry
>Thanks for the scans. Here's what I've come up with.
>
>Carl
>orionjeweb.com
>
>    I have to tell him a few things, such as that COMMENTS ON
>ETYMOLOGY is not an ADS publication.  But it's OK.

More than OK; it's great.  I especially like the fact that Carl's
site includes scans of some of those Cincinnati Enquirer references
(though not the earliest Barry has located).  Thanks to both Barry
and Carl!  (And thanks to Jerry at CoE and to Cecil at TSD as well.)

Larry


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 03:45:41 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:45:41 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.234541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,
I just found a cite from the Sheboygan Press, Sept. 23 1913, giving the
result of a bowling tournament, where

[     "The Ish-go-bibble bowling team defeated Freddy Heerman's
Colts......<snip>  Ish-ga-bibble--(meaning "I should worry.")   ]

So the "ga" was used in Wisconsin at that time.  Hope this helps.  I'll try
some earlier hits.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:18 PM
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
> of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
> actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
> German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
> there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
> 1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
> should worry = I don't care)?
>
>     The item appears below my signoff.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>
> [San Francisco Bulletin]:
> March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
> Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
> Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
> graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
> member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
> the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
> [I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
> dearly for him].
> But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
> will not suffer."
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 04:07:52 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:07:52 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.000752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Both cites in the Sheboygan story were spelled "ga."
I simply miscopied the first as "go."  Sorry.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> Gerald,
> I just found a cite from the Sheboygan Press, Sept. 23 1913, giving the
> result of a bowling tournament, where
>
> [     "The Ish-go-bibble bowling team defeated Freddy Heerman's
> Colts......<snip>  Ish-ga-bibble--(meaning "I should worry.")   ]


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep  8 04:45:51 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:45:51 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
In-Reply-To: <p04310102bb81695bf2ad@[131.151.65.89]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.004551.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
>of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
>actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
>German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
>there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
>1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
>should worry = I don't care)?
>
>    The item appears below my signoff.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>[San Francisco Bulletin]:
>March 18, 1914, p.11/5-6; 'Does Mr. Overall Really Know His Own
>Mind?'; col. 5: "But whether Overall comes or goes, [Seals manager]
>Howard has no occasion to worry.  The signing of new talent which
>graces the pitching staff of the club this season has made Howard a
>member of the Ish Ga Fret society and he can easily afford to assume
>the dictatorial position in the matter with Maier
>[I.e., if Overall goes to the Venice club, Maier will have to pay
>dearly for him].
>But rest assured, if Overall goes to Venice, the San Francisco club
>will not suffer."

There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
[different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
"ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not been
so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make only
a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
"go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
"gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with "should".
And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Sep  8 04:58:36 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:58:36 -0500
Subject: New word? prosititots
Message-ID: <SUN.7.SEP.2003.235836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I passed the question to my daughter at Univ. Mo, Columbia, and it doesn't
seem to have made it into general circulation there.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----

Well... I haven't ever heard them before... so i would say no.. but it does
make sense.. you should see the stuff we sell at jc penney...  the childrens
dept. sells the exact same stuff that the jouniors dept. sells only
smaller...  I have actually bought some stuff from childrens cuz it was
cheaper and i can  :)   but it is a sad fact... the kids now a days are ten
times worse than i ever dreamed of being when i was their age...  girls and
boys are having sex at like 10 yrs old, and probably younger... i don't know
if the parents are just oblivious or what... but i could garuntee you that
they have no idea what their kids are really like and do..  things are going
down hill as far as drugs and sex and all that good stuff go...    But
hey... I turned out alright and i did plenty of stuff you guys were
oblivious of when i was younger   :)     ok, well i will talk to you later i
am going to bed...  at 11p.m. on a friday night...  I love you!!


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep  8 05:13:59 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:13:59 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.011359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If what Evan Morris says about there being a 1913 popular song by Sam Lewis
called "Isch Gabibble" is the theory that Green and Chapman hold, then my
searching of ancestry.com would confirm that the song popularized the term.

I searched from 1908-1913 using "ga bibble" "ki bibble" "ka bibble."  I got
zero hits 1908-1912.  In 1913, I got hits from Modesto(CA) for "ich ka
bibble," from Whichita Falls(TX) for "I-sha-ga-bibble"(in a furniture store
ad), Sheboygan(WI) "Ish-ga-bibble" (the bowling team!)

Can you imagine how they would have mangled "Danke Schoen" if IT had been
the 1913 hit!

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


> There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
> Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
> [different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
> even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
> "ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not
been
> so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
> perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make
only
> a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
> "go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
> and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
> "gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
> just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
> analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with
"should".
> And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
> participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Sep  8 07:44:24 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:44:24 +0100
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.084424.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW. My take on 'ish kabibble' is based on the background provided by Leo Rosten in Hooray for Yiddish (1982). Rosten in turn cites the journal Editor and Publisher of Oct 17 1970.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 09:03:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:03:15 EDT
Subject: Trinidad food (1961, 1964, 1967)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.050315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some notes
   The Library of Congress has some newspaper volumes of the PORT OF SPAIN
GAZETTE (from 1825), the TRINIDAD CHRONICLE (from 1864), and the TRINIDAD
GUARDIAN (from 1917).  If I have time to go there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EAST INDIANS IN TRINIDAD:
A STUDY OF CULTURAL PERSISTENCE
by Morton Klass, Barnard College, Columbia University
1961
Prospect Heights, Illinois:  Waveland Press, Inc.
1988 reissue

   Not surprisingly, this book was available at Columbia.
   There's a good bibliography, but only two books figure to give me an
earlier "roti," and I don't know what libraries have them:

Comins, D. W. D.
1893  Note on Emigration from India to Trinidad (plus Diary and Appendices),
Calcutta, Bengal Secretariat Press.  In Notes on Indian Immigration,
1878-1893, pp. 205-384.

Morton, S. E.
1916  John Morton of Trinidad.  Toronto, Westminster Co.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO:
ISLES OF THE IMMORTELLES
by Robin Bryans
London: Faber and Faber Limited
1967

Pg. 201 (Carnival):  Mountains of green coconuts had appeared and long lines
of booths had been built supplying every kind of Trinidadian sweetmeat and
snack--roti and dal puri, fish floats and accra, hot dogs and hamburgers, hot and
cold coo-coo made from sliced occhroes, tree-oysters and crab-backs, mashed
tum-tum plantains and corncobs, all to be washed down with unlimited quantities
of Cokes and Solos, lagers and rums.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EVERYONE IN THIS HOUSE MAKES BABIES
by Sheila Solomon Klass
Garden City, NY:  Doubleday & Co.
1964

Pg. 51:  "Breakfast" was what normal people ate at midday.

Pg. 54:  "Oh, she can make _roti_ (pancake breads) and _talkari_ (vegetable
curry) fine," Doon said impatiently, "but _we_ cook with salt."

Pg. 92:  Ramlal's mother and grandmother worked at serving the very festive
dinner: rice and dal, curried goat meat, pumpkin squash curry, roti (holiday
variety called dal _puree_ because of the thin layers of dal interlarded in the
dough) sliced eggplant dipped in dal and flour and fried in ghee, and soft
drinks mixed with evaporated milk.

Pg. 95:  It was conch, a variety of huge snail that Arcadians consider a
great delicacy.  Mrs. Kumar had prepared it in a thick, rich, curry sauce.  She
set the dish down and we helped ourselves.  One bite was all I needed to know
that I would never forget this Christmas.  Conk has the flavor, the appearance,
and the texture of diced automobile tire.  (...)
   "First time you have conk, in _my_ house," he said happily.  "First time
you ever have conk.  You must remember that."

Pg. 104:  From the kitchen, a thatched shed behind the ajoupa, she fetched an
enormous brown paper bag full of sizzling _channa_, crisp and spicy.  Channa
is not a food one usually finds on an American maternity diet.  It is made by
soaking chick-peas overnight, then frying them until they are brittle and
sprinkling them with salt and red pepper until they're very hot.  East Indians
chew channa as light refreshment, equivalent to the way we eat popcorn or
peanuts.

Pg. 120:  During the wedding season, which lasts from March through July, we
attended two or three weddings each Sunday, and slept--or rather, lay
awake--Saturday nights while "mikes" (hired sound trucks) parked on the road, played
popular Indian music to liven up the all night "cookings."  At these cookings,
enormous quantities of food were prepared for the hundreds of wedding guests
expected.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 12:59:25 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:59:25 -0400
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
In-Reply-To: <002f01c375c8$03f06120$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.085925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Imagine? What imagining? You don't remember "donkey shame"?

dInIs



If what Evan Morris says about there being a 1913 popular song by Sam Lewis
called "Isch Gabibble" is the theory that Green and Chapman hold, then my
searching of ancestry.com would confirm that the song popularized the term.

I searched from 1908-1913 using "ga bibble" "ki bibble" "ka bibble."  I got
zero hits 1908-1912.  In 1913, I got hits from Modesto(CA) for "ich ka
bibble," from Whichita Falls(TX) for "I-sha-ga-bibble"(in a furniture store
ad), Sheboygan(WI) "Ish-ga-bibble" (the bowling team!)

Can you imagine how they would have mangled "Danke Schoen" if IT had been
the 1913 hit!

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article


>  There are various notions as to the origin of "ish-kabibble" (e.g., in
>  Green's dictionary ... and Chapman's [same notion] ... and Partridge's
>  [different one]). I don't know whether any of these is substantiated or
>  even plausible. If the phrase has been heavily mangled, then the
>  "ish"/"ich" may be spurious along with the rest. If the phrase has not
been
>  so severely altered, then someone familiar with German dialects could
>  perhaps make a good guess. I am ignorant of such things, so I can make
only
>  a silly wild speculation, viz. that "ga" could be "gah" = "gehe" = English
>  "go". The "bibble" might could = German "bibbern" (= "jitter" in English),
>  and perhaps the whole construction is 'future' or something similar, with
>  "gehen" as an 'auxiliary'. Another possibility (?): "ga" = German "gar",
>  just an intensifier. Either way the expression would be sarcastic,
>  analogous but not exactly equivalent to the above expression with
"should".
>  And of course the "ga" could also be the "ge-" customary in German past
>  participles etc. ... but then what's the "bibble"?
>
>  -- Doug Wilson
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 13:50:03 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:50:03 EDT
Subject: "Ish Ga Fret" (I should worry) in 1914 baseball article
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.095003.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:18:18 -0500, Gerald Cohen <
> gcohen at UMR.EDU> asks
>
> Here's another oddity I've come across in the 1914 baseball columns
> of the _San Francisco Bulletin_: "Ish Ga Fret" (= I should worry;
> actually expresses just the opposite). "Ish" looks like (dialectal)
> German; "Fret" is English "fret" (worry); but what is "Ga"? Might
> there be some connection with "ish kabibble," for which HDAS gives
> 1913 as the first attestation and which has the same meaning (I
> should worry = I don't care)?

Many German verbs start with the syllable "ge", hence if you are creating a
mock German verb you would start it with "ge".  I heard of one case where a
Yiddish-speaker, resident 50 years in the United States, could not think of the
Yiddish word for "to promise" when writing a letter, so he created the nonce
word "gepromise"---to the great confusion of the letter's recipient!

So there is a possibility that "Ga Fret" is simply the result of someone's
rendering the English "to fret" into German, whether as a joke or because he/she
couldn't think of a German equivalent I don't know.  Similarly, it is
possible that "ishkabibble" is a mis-rendering (or dialect variation) of "ich
gebibble" where "bibble" is a presumably non-German verb which the coiner decided to
employ in German (or maybe Yiddish).

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 16:41:58 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:41:58 -0400
Subject: Cherry Vanilla (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.124158.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are over 15,000 Google hits for "cherry vanilla."  I guess I'll add it to Butter Pecan and Rum Raisin and Rocky Road and Cookies & Cream and Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 91 -- No Title
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Mar 24, 1955.                   p. 14 (1 page):
      COSTA'S
FRENCH ICE CREAM
in Chocolate Mint Chip
and Cherry Vanilla


      If You Plan a Midwinter Party
       By Ruth Miller Written for The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Feb 7, 1947.                   p. 14 (1 page):
   Cherry Vanilla Parfait.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Sales of Pre-Packaged Ice Cream Are Spreading in Metropolitan Area
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 15, 1950.                   p. 39 (1 page):
   Favorite flavors here, in the order of preference, are vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, cherry vanilla, butter pecan, and maple walnut.  Average price a pint is 45 cents.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 8 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Sep 17, 1946.                   p. 12 (1 page):
Don't Miss Breyers Cherry Vanilla Ice Cream.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Sep  8 16:46:25 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:46:25 -0400
Subject: slang use of "random"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.124625.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, all who responded to Ken Ringle re "random ." You can access
his story (for a limited time) at:

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33337-2003Sep5.html

Bethany


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep  8 16:56:37 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0700
Subject: prostitot plus
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.095637.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone suggested "sororistute" perhaps as a later developemental stage.

http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001031.html#001031

sororisluts





<<you can dispute taste>>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 17:27:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:27:04 -0400
Subject: Maple Walnut (1902) or Walnut Maple (1907)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.132704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 17,600 Google hits for "maple walnut."  OED ("Food?  What's that?") is finished with the letter "M" and doesn't have it.
   There are 5,660 Google hits for "walnut maple."  This is often not a food, but a piece of wood.  OED doesn't have this, either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALNUT MAPLE

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 62 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 7, 1913.                   p. II6 (2 pages)
 ("Walnut Maple" is here somewhere in this furniture ad--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 26 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 3, 1925.                   p. 27 (1 page)
(Furniture.  You find the "walnut maple" in these three--ed.)

      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 1, 1866.                   p. 7 (1 page)

      Classified Ad 2 -- No Title
              New York Daily Times  (1851-1857).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 22, 1853.                   p. 5 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 22 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1932.                   p. S12 (1 page)

      Display Ad 13 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 22, 1909.                   p. 7 (1 page):
(Illegible.  Perhaps in the chocolates ad--ed.)

      THE SEDUCTIVE SUNDAE.
       From the New York Tribune..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 11, 1907.                   p. E7 (1 page):
_None of the Soda Fountain Men Can Tell_
   _How the Name Originated._
>From the New York Tribune.
(This original article should in the archives from the TRIBUNE--ed.)
(...)
   This one I'm setting before you is composed of frozen cream heaped with walnuts which have been steeped in walnut maple sirup, the whole covered with thick walnut maple sirup.  There isn't a better sundae going, and when it's made of chopped walnuts, which have been mixed when dry with malted milk powder it's about as nourishing and appetizing a thing as you can get.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAPLE WALNUT

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 42 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 27, 1912.                   p. II3 (1 page)

      Display Ad 52 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 15, 1912.                   p. I15 (1 page)

      Display Ad 60 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 9, 1911.                   p. II6 (1 page):
     _Don't Forget Your Sunday Brick_
      It Puts the Finishing Touch to Your Dinner
MAPLE WALNUT ICE CREAM--VANILLA ICE CREAM
STRAWBERRY ICE CREAM


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1903.                   p. 4 (1 page):
Walnut Candies , 25c
English Walnut...Maple Walnut.

      Display Ad 3 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Mar 21, 1902.                   p. 4 (1 page):
Maple Walnut Jumbles.

      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              New York Daily Times  (1851-1857).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1855.                   p. 6 (2 pages):
(Furniture--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      MAPLE WALNUT BAVARIAN CREAM.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 29, 1920.                   p. 9 (1 page)

      SOME CHEESE DISHES.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 1, 1917.                   p. FS7 (1 page)

      Display Ad 14 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 16, 1913.                   p. 9 (1 page)

      Display Ad 28 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 23, 1906.                   p. R1 (1 page)

      Display Ad 11 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 14, 1906.                   p. 7 (1 page)

      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Dec 10, 1905.                   p. 4 (1 page)

      Display Ad 10 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 8, 1905.                   p. 7 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 17:56:34 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:56:34 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.135634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
   FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Things for Children to See in the City
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
      Plays
LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87, West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:09:50 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:09:50 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <196D8123.09B0D7D1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.140950.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
from early 50s) is

Liar, liar, pants on fire
Nose as long as a telephone wire.

Us Louisvillians had no such pome.

dInIs



>    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
>    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>       Things for Children to See in the City
>               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
>N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
>       Plays
>LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
>West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep  8 18:15:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:15:27 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.141527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?



Search Result 1
 From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"

 This is the only article in this thread

 View: Original Format
 Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the Oxford English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909 gramophone recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest citation.  Uncle Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is wrong about the 1909 date, i.e.,

"The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several infamous errors,
which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's origin.  Even
the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also two French
dictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand Larousse
Dictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908 use.  These
are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed. David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>

And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now reigning 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:

"I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of the American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other members, Prof. Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a newsletter he publishes to the history of the word 'jazz.'  Some months ago he sent several messages to ADS-L demonstrating that the record that's the source of the OED's 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version recorded in the late 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved in a discussion about the correct dates of the citations in the French dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91 page survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol. 32, #4-5 (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is interested in it, it may be bought from him at the Dept. of Applied Arts and Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at Rolla, Rolla, Missouri, 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost will probably be about $8 or $10; it's an installment of a new
s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."

_______________________________________
Kent Underwood
Music Librarian, New York University
Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
Voice:  212-998-2523
Fax:  212-995-4794
Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012



----- Original Message -----
From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")

> My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> but baseball pitching.
>
> Here are the citations:
>
> BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> simply can't do anything with it."
> As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
>
> [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:40:33 2003
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:40:33 -0500
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <200309081800.h88I0jC08488@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.134033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.


The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
the telephone wire".

Jim Parish


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:54:02 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:54:02 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <3F5C86D1.31803.1B3A11E@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.145402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).

dInIs



>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>
>
>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>the telephone wire".
>
>Jim Parish

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep  8 18:58:17 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:58:17 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a0501040abb82809cbf18@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.145817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>
>dInIs

another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
nicely graphic

"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
"...hanging from a telephone wire"

But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
wonder?

L

>
>
>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>
>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>
>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>
>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>
>>
>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>the telephone wire".
>>
>>Jim Parish
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Sep  8 19:32:46 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:32:46 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.153246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see that a sentence in my portion of Kent's message to the Music Librarians group was marred by careless cutting and pasting on my part.  Just the same, I hope that it will be understood that the CoE issue is a 91 page history of >the word< "jazz", and that the posting will bring Gerry some orders from music libraries.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, September 8, 2003 2:15 pm
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"

>   Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?
>
>
>
> Search Result 1
> From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
> Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"
>
> This is the only article in this thread
>
> View: Original Format
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
> Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
> Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the Oxford
> English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909 gramophone
> recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest citation.  Uncle
> Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is wrong about the 1909
> date, i.e.,
>
> "The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several infamous
> errors,which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's
> origin.  Even
> the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
> term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
> Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
> pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also two
> Frenchdictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand
> LarousseDictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908
> use.  These
> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed. David
> Walton (1997-2003)<" target="l">http://www.wordorigins.org>
>
> And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now reigning
> 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:
>
> "I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of the
> American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other members, Prof.
> Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a newsletter he publishes
> to the history of the word 'jazz.'  Some months ago he sent
> several messages to ADS-L demonstrating that the record that's the
> source of the OED's 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version
> recorded in the late 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved
> in a discussion about the correct dates of the citations in the
> French dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are
> excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91 page
> survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol. 32, #4-5
> (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is interested in it,
> it may be bought from him at the Dept. of Applied Arts and
> Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at Rolla, Rolla, Missouri,
> 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost will probably be about $8 or
> $10; it's an installment of a new
> s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
> Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
> Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")
>
> > My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> > Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> > the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> > April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> > story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> > As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> > but baseball pitching.
> >
> > Here are the citations:
> >
> > BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> > Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> > tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> > simply can't do anything with it."
> > As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> > get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> > new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> > unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> > what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> > LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
> >
> > [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> > by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> > Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> > each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> > strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> > also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> > ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > Kent Underwood
> > Music Librarian, New York University
> > Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> > Voice:  212-998-2523
> > Fax:  212-995-4794
> > Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
> >
>


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Sep  8 18:48:15 2003
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:48:15 -0400
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.144815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
particular dialect?

D


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Sep  8 21:24:57 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:24:57 -0500
Subject: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.162457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the searching secret for NewspaperArchive.com?  Using advanced
search on the exact phrase or name 'everyday low prices' in all papers in
all years I got responses only back to 1962.  Limiting the years from 1759
to 1945 yielded zero hits.  Limiting from 1900-1930 also yielded zero hits,
as did limiting from 1920-1930.  Only when I searched for the exact date Feb
23 1928 did I get two hits--both on what seem to be the same instance in the
same paper.  Does my not being a member affect the search procedure?  There
is no notice to that effect that I can find.

--Clai Rice

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: History of the phrase <<Everyday Low Prices>> (1928)

[snip]

   23 February 1928, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.5?, col. 4:
Everyday Low Prices That Prevail Here
(The John Lersch Company.  There are over 1,000 more hits in this
newspaper--ed.)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Sep  8 22:22:56 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:22:56 -0400
Subject: FWIW:  NYU librarians and "Jazz"
In-Reply-To: <68A96957.3037E12C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.182256.0400.>

I'm less worried about the misspelling of my name than by the claim that I
am six years old.

> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed.
> David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:15 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: FWIW: NYU librarians and "Jazz"
>
>
>    Who is David Walton?  Was he on tv?
>
>
>
> Search Result 1
>  From: Kent Underwood (kent.underwood at NYU.EDU)
> Subject: Re: [MLA-L] More on first citation of "jazz"
>
>  This is the only article in this thread
>
>  View: Original Format
>  Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mla-l
> Date: 2003-09-08 07:50:11 PST
> Respondents to my posting on Friday (below) point to the
> Oxford English Dictionary entry on "jazz," which gives a 1909
> gramophone recording "Uncle Josh in Society" as the earliest
> citation.  Uncle Josh did get around, but OED2, it seems, is
> wrong about the 1909 date, i.e.,
>
> "The true etymology of 'jazz' is complicated by several
> infamous errors,
> which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's origin.  Even
> the venerable OED2 makes an error.  The big dic [sic] first cites the
> term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record 'Uncle Josh in
> Society.'  This is an error.  The term didn't appear on the 1909
> pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition.  Also
> two French
> dictionaries, 'Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and 'Grand Larousse
> Dictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908 use.  These
> are typos; they should read 1918." --From "Wordorigins," ed.
> David Walton (1997-2003)<http://www.wordorigins.org>
>
> And this from George Thompson, who discovered the now
> reigning 1912 Los Angeles Times citation:
>
> "I first posted the 'Jazz Curve' to the discussion group of
> the American Dialect Society, ADS-L.  One of the other
> members, Prof. Gerald Cohen, has devoted two issues of a
> newsletter he publishes to the history of the word 'jazz.'
> Some months ago he sent several messages to ADS-L
> demonstrating that the record that's the source of the OED's
> 1909 citation for 'jazz' was a version recorded in the late
> 1910s, if I remember, 1918.  I was involved in a discussion
> about the correct dates of the citations in the French
> dictionary.  I believe that all these discussions are
> excerpted in Cohen's latest compilation of material is a 91
> page survey of what is known about the history of jazz: vol.
> 32, #4-5 (2002) of 'Comments on Etymology.'  If anyone is
> interested in it, it may be bought from him at the Dept. of
> Applied Arts and Cultural Studies, Univ. of Missouri at
> Rolla, Rolla, Missouri, 65401 (or gcohen at umr.edu)  The cost
> will probably be about $8 or $10; it's an installment of a new
> s letter on the history of slang that sells for $15/year."
>
> _______________________________________
> Kent Underwood
> Music Librarian, New York University
> Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> Voice:  212-998-2523
> Fax:  212-995-4794
> Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kent Underwood <kent.underwood at nyu.edu>
> Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 6:30 pm
> Subject: [MLA-L] First usage of "jazz" ("jass")
>
> > My NYU colleague George Thompson has turned up, in the Los Angeles
> > Times database, what is evidently the earliest written usage of
> > the word "jazz" (aka "jass") yet reported.  The two stories, from
> > April 2 and 3, 1912, predate the 1913 San Francisco newspaper
> > story commonly cited (in New Grove and elsewhere) as the earliest.
> > As in 1913, though, the 1912 writers are talking not about music,
> > but baseball pitching.
> >
> > Here are the citations:
> >
> > BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured
> > Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them
> > tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you
> > simply can't do anything with it."
> > As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to
> > get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that
> > new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some
> > unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's
> > what it must be at that if it wobbles.
> > LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 2, 1912, part III, pg. 2, col. 1
> >
> > [A column of notes and comments about the game, "Around the Bags"
> > by Owen R. Bird in the paper the next day includes the paragraph]:
> > Of course they will want to know what the first ball pitched by
> > each slabster was.  Well, Leverenz got away with a nice straight
> > strike, and Henderson cut the outside corner with a fast curve
> > also for one strike.  Benny calls this his "jass" ball.  LOS
> > ANGELES TIMES, April 3, 1912, section III, p. 3, col. 1
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > Kent Underwood
> > Music Librarian, New York University
> > Email:  kent.underwood at nyu.edu
> > Voice:  212-998-2523
> > Fax:  212-995-4794
> > Snail: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012
> >
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Sep  9 00:50:17 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:50:17 -0500
Subject: Visiting scholar from Russia has studied political speech
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.195017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is for ads-l members who are interested in political speech.
A visiting scholar to the US (Professor Elena Bakumova, from Volgograd, Russia)
has recently completed her dissertation on political discourse, and
perhaps an exchange of ideas/information with American scholars would
be mutually beneficial.

    Her dissertation is titled _Role Structure of Political Discourse_
(Volgograd, 2002), and in response to a query of mine she explained
briefly:
"I have written my PhD thesis on the role structure of political
discourse, and that included the analysis of the roles and the types
American and Russian politicians play, and also the analysis of the
political portrait as a genre of political discourse."

    I'm sure she could benefit from the knowledge of ads-l members on
political speech, and we in the US could benefit from the insight
that Russian scholars bring to this subject too.

    Anyone interested may contact her directly (e-mail address:
bakev at yandex.ru).
Her snail-mail address is: Professor Elena Bakumova/School of
American and International Studies, Ramapo College of New Jersey, 505
Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, NY 07430.

Gerald Cohen


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 00:59:15 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:59:15 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.205915.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:48 PM -0400 9/8/03, Duane Campbell wrote:
>An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>particular dialect?
>
>D

The former is usually transcribed "innit" and no, it's not unique to
Mamet, his characters, or their (Chicago?  Midwestern?) dialect, as
I'm sure others will note in due course and with more specifics.

L


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep  9 01:21:48 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:21:48 -0400
Subject: "gubernatorial" too hard for TV news
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.212148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Sacramento Bee, last Thursday:

-----
 You won't hear reporters or anchors saying "gubernatorial"
 during the local newscasts on Channel 3 (KCRA) -- not if Dan
 Weiser has his way. (And
 as KCRA's top news boss, he usually does.)

 Weiser recently issued a newsroom memo, instructing station staff to say
 hasta la vista to the word "gubernatorial."

 His reasoning? While journalists may be partial to the word (in
 Wednesday's Bee alone, "gubernatorial" appeared in four stories plus an
 index), rarely does it come up in real-world conversations.

 "We're trying to write in the way that people speak, and few people use
 that word," Weiser says. "Nobody says 'gubernatorial.' They say 'candidate
 for governor' or 'running for governor.' I prefer keeping things as easily
 understandable as possible."
-----

<sigh>

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 01:58:49 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:58:49 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.215849.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, some  Louisvillians did have part of the saying.  I checked with my wife,
wives being obviously impeccable sources, who had a random childhood growing up in
Louisville and southern Indiana, for the most part. She confirms that "liar, liar,
pants on fire" was a common saying (perhaps more accurately an accusation), but
without the nose and telephone part.  I who lived my whole first 18 years in
southern Jefferson County, not technically Louisville, used the term regularly.
Sometimes, a river runs through it.

Jim Stalker

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>
> dInIs
>
> >    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering about a dating.
> >    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
> >
> >
> >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> >       Things for Children to See in the City
> >               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
> >N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
> >       Plays
> >LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
> >West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Sep  9 01:57:20 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:57:20 -0700
Subject: Speech Accent Archive - 264 speech samples and accents
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFIEDHGNAA.vida@direct.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.185720.0700.>

I haven't seen this posted here, this may be of interest:

The Speech Accent Archive has 264 speech samples of accented speech of
speakers from many different language backgrounds reading the same sample
paragraph.

http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 02:10:36 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:10:36 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.221036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Given that the local Louisville version (c. 1950s) that the Stalker household
is familiar with had no telephone wires or noses in the saying, it is possible
that the saying is a curse, derived from older sources and adapted in some
contexts to modern technology in order to make some sense of it (perhaps for
younger, we hope, more innocent children), or lessen the demonology suggested
by the curse.  If you lie, you will live in flames, i. e., the flames of hell.

Jim Stalker

Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> >>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
> >>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
> >
> >dInIs
>
> another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
> version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
> telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
> copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
> nicely graphic
>
> "...hang them up on a telephone wire"
> "...hanging from a telephone wire"
>
> But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
> besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
> trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
> Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
> wonder?
>
> L
>
> >
> >
> >>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> >>
> >>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> >>>  from early 50s) is
> >>>
> >>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
> >>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
> >>>
> >>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
> >>
> >>
> >>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
> >>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
> >>the telephone wire".
> >>
> >>Jim Parish
> >
> >--
> >Dennis R. Preston
> >University Distinguished Professor
> >Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >      Asian & African Languages
> >Michigan State University
> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >phone: (517) 432-3099


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:21:01 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:21:01 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.192101.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Duane:

> An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
> characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
> does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
> Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
> why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
> particular dialect?

I've heard "innit", but not "donit".
Anne G


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:23:13 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:23:13 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.192313.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs:

> The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
> from early 50s) is
>
> Liar, liar, pants on fire
> Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>
> Us Louisvillians had no such pome.

I remember that one, too, early 50's, growing up in an "undistinguished"
Seattle neighborhood. . . What did you have, if anything?
Anne G


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Sep  9 02:28:07 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:28:07 -0500
Subject: Speech accent
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.212807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the "speech accents" web site.  Are there any such sites
which have samples of speakers of various American English and/or
British English dialects?

Thanks!

Dr. Patti Kurtz
Assistant Professor, English
Minot State University
Minot, ND 58709


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Sep  9 03:00:25 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:00:25 -0700
Subject: Speech accent
In-Reply-To: <3F5D3AB7.6090208@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <MON.8.SEP.2003.200025.0700.>

Dear Patti,

I found the reference in this subsection of Meme Pool - there are some VERY
interesting topics and links!!

http://www.memepool.com/Subject/Linguistics/

cheers !!

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Patti J. Kurtz
Sent: September 8, 2003 7:28 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Speech accent


Thanks for the "speech accents" web site.  Are there any such sites
which have samples of speakers of various American English and/or
British English dialects?

Thanks!

Dr. Patti Kurtz
Assistant Professor, English
Minot State University
Minot, ND 58709


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep  9 05:24:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:24:35 EDT
Subject: Saleratus (1832) & stuff
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.012435.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SALERATUS

   FOOD HISTORY NEWS (FHN 50, Vol. XIII, No. II), had a cover story "Food
History 101: What are Pearlash and Saleratus."  Pg. 6, col. 2:

   _When & how introduced:_  It was knopwn as early as 1837 in the U.S.  Mrs.
Hale's _The Good Housekeeper_, 1839, refers to both pearlash and saleratus.
_Oxford English Dictionary's_ first citation is 1846, where it is described as
"sort of refined pearlash," but by 1848, _Dictionary of American English_
refers to a description of a western lake "encrusted with soda or common
saleratus."

   Can we do better than that?  Oh, of course.

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
The Family Lyceum. Design for Instruction and Entertainment, and Adapted to
Families, Schools and Lyceums (1832-1833). Boston: Aug 25, 1832. Vol. 1, Iss.
2; p. 8 (1 page)
   HOUSEKEEPERS often pour vinegar, or sour cider, upon pearlash or
saleratus, which produces a brisk effervescence.  The bubbles of air thrown off, are
carbonic acid.  When these ingredients are mixed in a pint or quart pitcher or
glass, and the effervescence continued for a few minutes, and a burning candle
or a small paper be inserted, it will be immediately extinguished, showing
that carbonic acid is fatal to combustion.  It is equally fatal to life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
STUFF


NEW-YORK HISTORICAL SOCIETY LIBRARY RE-OPENING SEPTEMBER 23rd--Greg Downing
kindly passed this along.  It has been closed for renovations.


WORD WIZARD--"Word Wizard" John Morse, publisher of Merriam-Webster's 11th,
will be at the Border's bookstore on my block (East 57th Street) on Monday,
September 15th, at 6:30 p.m.  To M-W:  Is he really a wizard?  Why isn't he a
word maven?  Do you have to do anything special to be a wizard?


WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM--It was posted:

What is the searching secret for NewspaperArchive.com?  Using advanced
search on the exact phrase or name 'everyday low prices' in all papers in
all years I got responses only back to 1962.  Limiting the years from 1759
to 1945 yielded zero hits.  Limiting from 1900-1930 also yielded zero hits,
as did limiting from 1920-1930...

   I've been having problems, too.  I get zero hits on stuff I darn well know
there are hits for.  So I try it again and again, and go back and re-start
the process, and sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn't.  The bottom
line is, the technology sucks here .You just try to do your best with it.


"WINDY CITY" WEB PAGE ADDITION--The 11 September 1886 CHICAGO TRIBUNE article
that I'd found seven years ago and sent many times to the TRIBUNE will be
added to the site.  It didn't scan well, and I've been switching Columbia copiers
and going out to the Village Copier and re-scanning the thing all day.  Let
me repeat: nothing is ever easy.


MISTAKES--Andrew Smith insists that I misrepresented him here.  His e-mail to
me earlier this year was intended to be helpful, and pointed out mild
"mistakes," like proper cover letters and that sort of stuff.  I just extended the
"mistake" philosophy; he in no way referred to my late parents or my autistic
nephew.   I apologize if that was inferred or implied.
   It's been a frustrating summer.  That's all that was meant by the CHICAGO
TRIBUNE "Windy City myth yet again" post.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:17:27 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:27 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <p04320411bb8280255479@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.071727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

L,

Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
however!)

dInIs

>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>
>>dInIs
>
>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>nicely graphic
>
>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>
>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>wonder?
>
>L
>
>>
>>
>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>
>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>
>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>
>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>
>>>
>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>the telephone wire".
>>>
>>>Jim Parish
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>      Asian & African Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:25:26 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:25:26 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.072526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I have "long" (or geminate) /n/'s in both (in rapid speech,
in more careful speech, I have /dn/, with a strong coarticulated
nasal component on the /d/). Eventually a (near?) total assimilation
process takes whatever is left of the homorgancally produced /d/ and
merges it with the /n/.

This is not as class-bound as one would think in much of the Upper or
Low- and Highland Appalachian South, though it appears to be a bit
more stratified in Costal Southerns.

What leaps out at me is the obviously incorrect pronunciation of
"isn't," "wasn't," and "doesn't" without a /d/ (or "long" /n/). Heard
it, used at all my life; so did everybody around me for miles and
miles (and miles). Surprised D ain't come acrost it before.

dInIs





An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
particular dialect?

D

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 11:41:09 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:41:09 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <3F5D33D9.9316A18D@msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.074109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Stalker is right; I am, as inner-circle friends know, a bogus
Louisvillian, being from the Indiana suburb of Loiusville known as
"New Albany," though I grew up miles closer to (but a river apart
from) downtown Louisville than Jim did. I apologize for suggesting
the absence of this folk ditty in the Falls City (although, as Jim
notes, the second line is still missing from more authentic
Louisvillian memory.

dInIs

>Well, some  Louisvillians did have part of the saying.  I checked
>with my wife,
>wives being obviously impeccable sources, who had a random childhood
>growing up in
>Louisville and southern Indiana, for the most part. She confirms
>that "liar, liar,
>pants on fire" was a common saying (perhaps more accurately an
>accusation), but
>without the nose and telephone part.  I who lived my whole first 18 years in
>southern Jefferson County, not technically Louisville, used the term
>regularly.
>Sometimes, a river runs through it.
>
>Jim Stalker
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>
>>  dInIs
>>
>>  >    I found an article about this in VERBATIM and was wondering
>>about a dating.
>>  >    FWIW:  I'm a lawyer, but I've never worn hot pants.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>>  >       Things for Children to See in the City
>>  >               New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
>>  >N.Y.: Apr 8, 1970.                   p. 69 (1 page):
>>  >       Plays
>>  >LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! at 2 P.M. Saturday at Public School 87,
>>  >West 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues.
>>
>>  --
>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>  University Distinguished Professor
>>  Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>        Asian & African Languages
>>  Michigan State University
>>  East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>  e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>  phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:36:32 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:36:32 -0500
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.083632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
coined the term "Anthropocene."

Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
of the "Anthropocene."
A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
But it seems to have stuck.

(p.47, col 1)

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:38:25 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:38:25 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a05010410bb836c24511a@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.063825.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Growing up in Salt Lake City, 50's:

Li-ur, li-ur, yur pants'r on fi-ur
Yur nose is as long as a telephone wi-ur.




=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  9 13:50:58 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:50:58 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <006001c37679$040fca90$f6d64b43@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.065058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Anne Gilbert <avavgilbertRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> Duane:
>
... and "done
> it" for "doesn it."
...

> I've heard "init" but not "donit"
> Anne G

"Donit" is for "don't it", not "doesn it".  I hear
this all the time - in movies, on TV, in daily speech.
 Much, much more common, to my hearing anyway, than "init".

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 14:00:14 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:00:14 -0400
Subject: Saleratus (1832) & stuff
In-Reply-To: <b0.3e247d05.2c8ebe13@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.100014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 9 Sep 2003, at 1:24, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> To M-W:  Is he really a wizard?  Why isn't he a
> word maven?  Do you have to do anything special to be a wizard?

President, Publisher, wizard, word maven, you name it -- John
wears a lot of hats.  I don't know what the official requirements are
for wizardry, but John works from about 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. every day
and usually comes in on weekends as well, so I suspect it involves
more than a wave of the wand. The real question in my mind is,
how does he stay so damned cheerful?


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 14:51:10 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:51:10 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <a0501040bbb8366d110d1@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.105110.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:17 AM -0400 9/9/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>L,
>
>Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
>have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
>however!)
>
>dInIs

Liar, liar, pants on fire
Nose is longer than a copper telephone wire

--monosyllabic "liar", "fire" and "wire" doesn't help.  Now if
"copper" and "telephone" are monosyllabic too, you're talking
scansion.  The versions below without "copper" would be fine
(metrically), or the copper-free version we began with.

>
>>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>>
>>>dInIs
>>
>>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>>nicely graphic
>>
>>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>>
>>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>>wonder?
>>
>>L
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>>
>>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>>the telephone wire".
>>>>
>>>>Jim Parish
>>>
>>>--
>>>Dennis R. Preston
>>>University Distinguished Professor
>>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>>      Asian & African Languages
>>>Michigan State University
>>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>>phone: (517) 432-3099
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep  9 15:24:02 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:24:02 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030908.163116.-312493.2.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.112402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>particular dialect?
>
>D
~~~~~~~~~~
I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,  but
don't remember "dunnit."  [Often affected by middle class youth when
"common" became chic.]
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 17:10:57 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:10:57 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <20030909135058.56109.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.131057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nope. "doesn't it" also becomes "donnit" through the well-known
/z/---> /d/ (see "business" -----> ) rule and subsequent assimilation
processes I laid out earlier.

dInIs




--- Anne Gilbert <avavgilbertRODIGY.NET> wrote:
>  Duane:
>
... and "done
>  it" for "doesn it."
...

>  I've heard "init" but not "donit"
>  Anne G

"Donit" is for "don't it", not "doesn it".  I hear
this all the time - in movies, on TV, in daily speech.
  Much, much more common, to my hearing anyway, than "init".

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                                |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep  9 17:15:04 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:15:04 -0400
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bb83986a8825@[130.132.245.233]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.131504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's why I prefer "Nose as long as a telephone wire"

The whole thing scans as follows:

X X X x X
X x X x X x X

LAR LAR PANTS on FAR

NOSE as LONGS a TEL phone WAR

4 beats per line.

Nace.

dInIs





>At 7:17 AM -0400 9/9/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>L,
>>
>>Careful with this scanning stuff. Remember there are some of use who
>>have monosyllabic "wire" and "liar." (Surely not my Milwaukee wife
>>however!)
>>
>>dInIs
>
>Liar, liar, pants on fire
>Nose is longer than a copper telephone wire
>
>--monosyllabic "liar", "fire" and "wire" doesn't help.  Now if
>"copper" and "telephone" are monosyllabic too, you're talking
>scansion.  The versions below without "copper" would be fine
>(metrically), or the copper-free version we began with.
>
>>
>>>At 2:54 PM -0400 9/8/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>>I prefer my wife's, at least for the traditional association of long
>>>>>noses and liars (which at least gives me a reading).
>>>>
>>>>dInIs
>>>
>>>another possibility via google (which favors the Preston household
>>>version, with the slight variants "your nose is longer than a
>>>telephone wire", as well as the footloose "nose is longer than a
>>>copper telephone wire", which scans worse than Ogden Nash) is the
>>>nicely graphic
>>>
>>>"...hang them up on a telephone wire"
>>>"...hanging from a telephone wire"
>>>
>>>But I agree that the nose-length one is more semantically motivated,
>>>besides which I'm not sure why one would drape a burning pair of
>>>trousers over the telephone wire, even if copper is a good insulator.
>>>Did the prevarication/nose length correlation antedate Pinocchio, I
>>>wonder?
>>>
>>>L
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>>>>>  from early 50s) is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>>>>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The version I remember (I was an Army brat, so I can't localize it, but
>>>>>the time would be the mid-'60s) had, as the second line, "Can't get over
>>>>>the telephone wire".
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim Parish
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Dennis R. Preston
>>>>University Distinguished Professor
>>>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>>>      Asian & African Languages
>>>>Michigan State University
>>>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>>>phone: (517) 432-3099
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>      Asian & African Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>phone: (517) 432-3099

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From indigo at WELL.COM  Tue Sep  9 07:08:33 2003
From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:08:33 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.000833.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Marin County CA, 70s, we had:
Liar, liar, pants on fire
Sittin on a telephone wire.



>dInIs:
>
>>  The full form (as I am told by mu wife, Milwaukee, childhood memory
>>  from early 50s) is
>>
>>  Liar, liar, pants on fire
>>  Nose as long as a telephone wire.
>>
>  > Us Louisvillians had no such pome.
--
Indigo Som
indigo at well.com
www.indigosom.com

Fetishes of the month: Mars, & naked lady amaryllis


From indigo at WELL.COM  Tue Sep  9 07:10:21 2003
From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:10:21 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.001021.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sherman Alexie (poet, novelist, filmmaker) uses "enit" extensively.
For him it's a Native American (or American Indian, take your pick)
thing.

>Duane:
>
>>  An affectation in any movie David Mamet directs is that he has his
>>  characters say "in it" for "isn't it" and "done it" for "doesn't it." He
>>  does this regardless of a character's class or ethnicity of background.
>>  Outside of a Mamet movie I have never heard any group use this, which is
>>  why it leaps out at me in the films. Is this a usage peculiar to any
>  > particular dialect?
>
>I've heard "innit", but not "donit".
>Anne G

--
Indigo Som
indigo at well.com
www.indigosom.com

Fetishes of the month: Mars, & naked lady amaryllis


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Tue Sep  9 17:53:45 2003
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:53:45 -0700
Subject: Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! (1970)
In-Reply-To: <20030909133825.16524.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.105345.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the one we had when I was growing up in So. California in the 60's

Patty

At 06:38 AM 9/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Growing up in Salt Lake City, 50's:
>
>Li-ur, li-ur, yur pants'r on fi-ur
>Yur nose is as long as a telephone wi-ur.
>
>
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Sep  9 19:21:15 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:21:15 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.152115.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello all,


What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
form having to try to supply power."
(Bloomberg)

He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
manager Joe Torre as Torres.

I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?

Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:00:30 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:00:30 -0500
Subject: Crab Boil & Fish Boil & Shrimp Boil (1959)
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.150030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some preliminary results from NewspaperArchives.com gets earlier citations
for all three terms.  Since I don't have a subscription I can't confirm the
larger contexts, though they kindly provide a little snapshot of half a
column width that helps ascertain that the terms are the ones we are looking
for.  Barry or some other subscriber will have to verify them:

CRAB BOIL:
News, Frederick, Maryland, Wed. 18 March 1896

...to a July oyster roast, ... "grand crab boil" is in the air

SHRIMP BOIL:
Chronicle Telegram, Elyria, Ohio, Mon 27 June 1949

...regional specialties as low c... shrimp boil, gumbo, blac...

FISH BOIL:
Sheboygan Press, Sheboygan, Wisconsin, Mon, 26 July 1954
...will proceed north...Michigan, stopping...Park for a fish boil...


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:14:20 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:14:20 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.161420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen E. Miller said:
>Hello all,
>
>
>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."
>(Bloomberg)
>
>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>
>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>
>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.

Maybe he thinks it sounds folksy.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:28:38 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:28:38 -0500
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.152838.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this is possibly just an extreme generalization of the "rule"
that says longer utterances always make the speaker sound smarter or
more important. He's just extending it to words, and since there are
only a few ways to make individual words longer, he settled on
unnecessary pluralization.

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com

>Hello all,
>
>
>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."
>(Bloomberg)
>
>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>
>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>
>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>
>Kathleen E. Miller
>Research Assistant to William Safire
>The New York Times


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:31:33 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:31:33 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <p06002006bb83e4ff3fea@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.163133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If that's the case, Bloomberg's speech contrasts in an interesting
way with that of Mario Cuomo, who, as I recall, wasn't afraid to use
an expressions like "mirabila dictu"!

O tempora, o mores...



On 9 Sep 2003, at 16:14, Alice Faber wrote:

> Kathleen E. Miller said:
> >Hello all,
> >
> >
> >What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
> >man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
> >took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
> >have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
> >form having to try to supply power."
> >(Bloomberg)
> >
> >He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
> >manager Joe Torre as Torres.
> >
> >I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
> >
> >Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>
> Maybe he thinks it sounds folksy.
> --
> ==============================================================================
> Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
> Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
> New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep  9 20:34:18 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:34:18 -0400
Subject: Correction
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.163418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I meant "mirabile dictu."  And "expression."

Sorry,

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 20:53:51 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:53:51 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.165351.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:14 PM 9/9/2003 -0400, Kathleen wrote:
>For example, ""It appears an event
> >took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
> >have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
> >form having to try to supply power."

Since we're all recalling our childhood (rhymes and all) I should mention
that the pluralization of 'ways' is, I believe, widespread (i.e. not
limited to New York City).  Standard Canadian colloquial English (at least
in my youth) included constructions such as 'You've got a long ways to go
before ...'  It may not be exactly a plural (note the use of the singular
indefinite article).

Geoff


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep  9 21:08:57 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:08:57 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.170857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
  >Kathleen E. Miller
 ~~~~~~~~~~
I hear "alls" a lot, and the  other day noticed that someone, in writing
dialogue, spelled it "all's" which made me wonder if could be /all as/: not
that /as/ is needed, but it might somehow feel right to the speaker. Maybe
/s/  is insinuating itself into speech by some such route.
A. Murie


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Tue Sep  9 21:55:48 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:48 +0000
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.215548.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
place-name is:          b'nEld
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Tue Sep  9 21:35:50 2003
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:35:50 -0400
Subject: War of words
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.173550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>From the Guardian:

Fed up with the language of Goethe being corrupted with additions such as
"die kiddies" and "der call centre", Germany's politicians are proposing to
ban civil servants from using "Denglish" - German mixed with English - in
the workplace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1038580,00.html


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep  9 22:14:42 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:14:42 -0700
Subject: Benld
In-Reply-To: <200309092108.h89L8ud3010195@mtac2.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.151442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Professor Peter Trudgill <peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH> asked:

>Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
>highly improbable spelling of BENLD?

According to:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmacoup/m_cahok.htm

Illinois Place Names book:
Benld est 21 Mar 1904, Inc as a city 30 Jul 1904

Benld was named for Ben L. Dorsey.

and according to:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ILMACOUP/2002-09/1032526817

(supported by a few other web sites) Mr. Dorsey was the town's
founder; the latter page also says the town's name was originally
pronounced "ben-el-dee."

John

--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Sep  9 22:15:51 2003
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:15:51 -0500
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.171551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Without any knowledge of this particular place name: there was a postal law
that there could not be two of the same name in any given state, back when
all correspondence was by snail mail, towns would get tired of trying to
come up with a unique placename, and after two or three trys and rejections
taking several months, would  just make up something.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Trudgill" <peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Benld


> Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
> highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
> improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
> place-name is:          b'nEld
> --
> Peter Trudgill
> Professor of English Linguistics
> Fribourg University
> Av. de l'Europe 20
> 1700 Fribourg
> Switzerland
>
> Telephone (UK):
> 01603 618036
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep  9 23:32:26 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:32:26 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <a051003aebb83e725b06e@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.193226.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:28 PM -0500 9/9/03, Erin McKean wrote:
>I think this is possibly just an extreme generalization of the "rule"
>that says longer utterances always make the speaker sound smarter or
>more important. He's just extending it to words, and since there are
>only a few ways to make individual words longer, he settled on
>unnecessary pluralization.
>
>Erin
>editor at verbatimmag.com

There is a tendency to extend utterances to achieve pomposity, as
noted by Aristotle (he calls it "oikos") and a few others since, and
that's what Orwell was after in his ridicule of the not un-
construction ("One can cure oneself of the not un  formation by
memorizing this sentence:  A not unblack dog was chasing a not
unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field"), but I don't that that's
what's going on with Bloomberg.  In fact, I don't think there's one
single factor involved here.  I agree with Geoff Nathan that the
"ways" below is not a true plural, but an informal variant that shows
up in e.g. "It's down there a ways", although that's a different
context from the one below.  The "moneys" I assume is from
Bloomberg's earlier incarnation as a financial honcho--I've never
understood when it's used, but it's used in financial circles--they
talk about mingling moneys from different sources and such.  I
haven't heard him refer to Joe Torre as Torres, but Bloomberg isn't
the Yankee fan Giuliani was (nor the Italian), and assuming he wasn't
just pandering to the Hispanic vote, this was probably a simple
mistake.  This one is not pluralization in any case.  Nor is
Bloomberg, admittedly no great public speaker, someone who seems in
general concerned with trying to pump himself up or make himself
appear smarter or more important, at least as far as I've seen.

Larry

>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>
>>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>>form having to try to supply power."
>>(Bloomberg)
>>
>>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary) and referred to Yankee
>>manager Joe Torre as Torres.
>>
>>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
>>
>>Other insights on the speech of  New York politicians welcome.
>>
>>Kathleen E. Miller
>>Research Assistant to William Safire
>>The New York Times


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Sep  9 23:48:33 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:48:33 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <3F5E0065.7985.BA45F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.194833.0400.>

> If that's the case, Bloomberg's speech contrasts in an interesting
> way with that of Mario Cuomo, who, as I recall, wasn't afraid to use
> an expressions like "mirabila dictu"!
>
> O tempora, o mores...

Cuomo, son of immigrants and a kid who grew up in the working class streets
of NYC, could get away with Latin exclamations. He didn't have to sound
folksy; his street creds were well established.

Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the other
hand...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 00:09:30 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:09:30 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bb83eef69bc2@[12.107.146.236]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.200930.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Must we do this again. Yes, it is "as," and 'as' was one of the
competing complementizers in earlier Englishes. It means no more (or
less) than "All that...". It is a relic, not an innovation. It is not
related to the other -s forms under discussion here (although I do
not mean to suggest that they are related eieter).

dInIs



>I've heard of the intrusive R, but an intrusive S?
   >Kathleen E. Miller
  ~~~~~~~~~~
I hear "alls" a lot, and the  other day noticed that someone, in writing
dialogue, spelled it "all's" which made me wonder if could be /all as/: not
that /as/ is needed, but it might somehow feel right to the speaker. Maybe
/s/  is insinuating itself into speech by some such route.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 10 00:08:34 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:08:34 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030909151110.00b5ce88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.200834.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>What weird Boston affectation would make a Johns Hopkins/Harvard educated
>man pluralize words that shouldn't be? For example, ""It appears an event
>took place in Canada, and that the load shedding that perhaps they should
>have done was not done in a ways that prevented the New York power grid
>form having to try to supply power."

I don't know ... but many persons would say "down the road a ways" etc.
Maybe from an old plural or genitive?

>He's also regularly says moneys (when not necessary)

A legal version ... maybe he thinks it sounds cool or in-the-know?

>and referred to Yankee manager Joe Torre as Torres.

No mystery here since Torres is a common last name and Torre is uncommon:
Torres is at least about 100 times as frequent as Torre in the US, I believe.

-- Doug Wilson


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep  9 22:30:21 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:30:21 -0700
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.153021.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erin McKean" <editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:36 AM
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"


> There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
> Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
> coined the term "Anthropocene."
>
> Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
> of the "Anthropocene."
> A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
> about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
> end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
> past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
> planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
> the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
> But it seems to have stuck.
>
> (p.47, col 1)
>
> Erin McKean
> editor at verbatimmag.com
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 10 01:17:26 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:17:26 -0400
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.211726.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This may well be correct.  The earliest cite I've seen, an article in Science on 13 Oct 2000, puts "Anthropocene" in quotes and itself cites "P. Crutzen and E. Stoermer, IGBP Newsl. 41, 17 (2000)."  (The citation practice used in Science means that the article appears at volume 41, page 17 of the IGBP Newsletter.)

John Baker


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erin McKean" <editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:36 AM
Subject: coinage claim for "Anthropocene"


> There's an interview with climatologist and Nobel Prize winner Paul
> Crutzen in the 5 July 2003 New Scientist, where he claims to have
> coined the term "Anthropocene."
>
> Q. Your latest find is more of an invention: the new geological age
> of the "Anthropocene."
> A. This happened at a meeting three years ago. Someone said something
> about the Holocene, the geological era covering the period since the
> end of the last ice age. I suddenly thought this was wrong. In the
> past 200 years, humans have become a major geological force on the
> planet. So I said no, we are not in the Holocene any more: we are in
> the Anthropocene. I just made up the word on the spur of the moment.
> But it seems to have stuck.
>
> (p.47, col 1)
>
> Erin McKean
> editor at verbatimmag.com
>


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:17:04 2003
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:17:04 -0700
Subject: Mamet
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.191704.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Duane:

> Sherman Alexie (poet, novelist, filmmaker) uses "enit" extensively.
> For him it's a Native American (or American Indian, take your pick)
> thing.

Well, I never heard "innit", from a Native American(but then, I haven't
heard that many Native Americans)


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:49:20 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:49:20 -0400
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <005c01c37741$a0f47220$024aa043@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.224920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suppose "innit" = "isn't it", "donit" = "don't it", "dunnit" = "doesn't
it", "wunnit" = "wasn't it", etc. are often just "eye-dialect". These
pronunciations seem pretty widespread. "Enit" might be "ain't it"? I
suppose these pronunciations occur unstressed usually ... I wouldn't expect
"That innit!" for "That isn't it!" ... and especially in 'question tags'
(e.g., "This Welsh roti's good, innit?").

-- Doug Wilson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 10 03:06:59 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:06:59 -0400
Subject: Benld
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.230659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The story goes that this was how Sano, Kentucky, came to be named:  Initial efforts to get a post office approved were unsuccessful because the proposed names were already taken, and the residents finally decided just to try "Say no," "because that's what they always do."  To their surprise, it worked.

        It's too good a story to check (and anyway, there's no listing for Sano in Kentucky Place Names).  However, Sano, which is a few miles from my birthplace in Kentucky, is indeed pronounced "say no."  There is no longer a post office there.


John Baker 
        

-----Original Message----- 
From: paulzjoh [mailto:paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:16 PM 
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Benld 


Without any knowledge of this particular place name: there was a postal law 
that there could not be two of the same name in any given state, back when 
all correspondence was by snail mail, towns would get tired of trying to 
come up with a unique placename, and after two or three trys and rejections 
taking several months, would  just make up something. 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 10 03:08:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:08:10 -0400
Subject: Pushout (1965) ("not a dropout")
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.230810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From Nat Hentoff in this week's VILLAGE VOICE:


 http://villagevoice.com/issues/0337/hentoff.php
But the chief indictment of Klein's chancellorship was displayed for all to see in the July 31 and August 1 New York Times front-page stories "To Cut Failure Rate, Schools Shed Students" and "High School Under Scrutiny for Giving Up on Its Students."

 The ever vigilant Carl Campanile of the New York Post broke the pushout story last November 9. The Times should enter its pieces by Tamar Lewin and Jennifer Medina for a Pulitzer, and the Post should submit Campanile's reporting as well.


    OED's first citation is the 1970 BRITANNICA BOOK OF THE YEAR (1969).


(ANCESTRY.COM)
    9 August 1965, CHILICOTHE CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg. 8, col. 1:
    Adam Clayton Powell, the Harlem globe-trotter, boviously enjoyed presiding over his committee on education and labor when it dug into Chicago's explosive school system.
    Martin Luther King, who had been demonstrating against Chicago School Superintendent Benjamin Willis, prodded Powell into conducting these hearings.  Powell, however, needed no real prodding and promptly called Prof. Philip Hauser, an anti-Willis witness, who stated that 95 per cent of the students were promoted whether they deserved to be or not.
    "I would call that a pushout, not a dropout," interrupted Powell.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      DROPOUT RECRUITS OTHERS FOR WORK
       By JOSEPH A. LOFTUS Special to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 20, 1965.                   p. 41 (1 page):
   Not a dropout, but a pushout, as Eddie described it.

      A DROPOUT STUDY BLAMES SCHOOLS
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Nov 24, 1966.                   p. 58 (1 page):
   "The term dropout might often be changed to pushout," said Dr. Robert Vintet, associate dean of the university's School of Social Work.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Now it's the school 'pushout'
       By John Dillin Staff correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor.       Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Dec 3, 1973.                   p. 6 (1 page)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep 10 02:48:05 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:48:05 -0500
Subject: Benld
In-Reply-To: <p05200f02bb83fc036bb9@[81.152.233.136]>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.214805.0500.>

Benld is 48 miles south of Springfield on I55.  I lived in Springfield for
six years and Champaign for 5, drove I55 to St. Louis often, and don't
remember the town at all.

Herb Stahlke



Can anyone tell me why there is a place in Central Illinois with the
highly improbable spelling of BENLD? The spelling seems even more
improbable when one discovers that the pronuncation of this
place-name is:          b'nEld
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Sep 10 04:17:53 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:17:53 -0700
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <TUE.9.SEP.2003.211753.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the
other
> hand...
>
Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?


From e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Sep 10 05:35:41 2003
From: e.pearsons at EARTHLINK.NET (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:35:41 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.013541.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a link to a Bloomberg biography.

http://home.nyc.gov/portal/index.jsp?pageID=nyc_mayor_bio&catID=1194

Enid Pearsons

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Colburn" <colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: First query after vacation


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       David Colburn <colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM>
> Subject:      Re: First query after vacation
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts family, on the
> other
> > hand...
> >
> Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
>


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Sep 10 11:24:12 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:12 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <006901c37752$8292fac0$f4fb1fcc@ibmaa0051d>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.072412.0400.>

> > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
> family, on the
> other
> > hand...
> >
> Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?

No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 12:02:38 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:02:38 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030909224115.04f4a650@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.080238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).

I note, however, that "eye-diaelct" has increasingly come to mean
"spellings which reflect dialect." I ain't against language change,
but we appear to be in the midst of it here with a chance for real
misunderstanding.

In the AS article mentioned above I used the neutral term
"respellings" to refer to both.

Several interesting studies of respellings appear in a recent special
issue of JofS (Journal of Sociolinguistics 4,4:614-21).

dInIs (not "eye-dialect" in the strict [older? obsolescent?] sense)









I suppose "innit" = "isn't it", "donit" = "don't it", "dunnit" = "doesn't
it", "wunnit" = "wasn't it", etc. are often just "eye-dialect". These
pronunciations seem pretty widespread. "Enit" might be "ain't it"? I
suppose these pronunciations occur unstressed usually ... I wouldn't expect
"That innit!" for "That isn't it!" ... and especially in 'question tags'
(e.g., "This Welsh roti's good, innit?").

-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:20:03 2003
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:20:03 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.082003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes:

>I note, however, that "eye-diaelct" has increasingly come to mean
>"spellings which reflect dialect." I ain't against language change,
>but we appear to be in the midst of it here with a chance for real
>misunderstanding.

>In the AS article mentioned above I used the neutral term
>"respellings" to refer to both.

>Several interesting studies of respellings appear in a recent special
>issue of JofS (Journal of Sociolinguistics 4,4:614-21).

>dInIs (not "eye-dialect" in the strict [older? obsolescent?] sense)

You forgit "KOHrect" "SAY ense".

Regards
David

Barnhart at highlands.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 10 13:33:25 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:33:25 -0400
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <001601c3778e$103388a0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.093325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:24 AM -0400 9/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote:
>  > > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
>>  family, on the
>>  other
>>  > hand...
>>  >
>>  Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
>
>No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
>definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
>wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.

Well, there is a bit of an inconsistency here; if Bloomberg's
biosketch is right, he's the son of a bookkeeper for a dairy and he
"parked cars and took out loans to finance his education" at Johns
Hopkins.  That doesn't fit my definition of "scion of a wealthy
family" no matter how much stretching is done to notions of "well to
do".  Of course, the claim may be that the information on the web
site Enid linked us to is all phony and that his father actually
owned the dairy, but it does seem unlikely that a wealthy young man
whose parents were helping support him would have taken out a loan
and spent his college parking cars on the side for fun...

L


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 17:14:25 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:14:25 -0400
Subject: "jazzer", 1896
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.131425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just So with Everybody.  From the Roxbury Gazette.
Gozlin ? Do you know there are times when I don?t like to go up in the elevator in our building?
Jazzer ? No, when?
Gozlin ? Why, when I am going down in it, of course.
        The Washington Post, April 12, 1896. p. 28, col. 7.  From the Proquest Historical Newspapers file.

The joke is certainly mirth-provoking, but does it help obfuscate the history of the word "jazz"?

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Sep 10 17:26:34 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:26:34 -0400
Subject: Blacklist vs. Blocklist
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.132634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It appears the anti-spam community has been consciously moving toward
using "blocklist" instead of "blacklist" when referring to a list of
offending domains, servers or IP address which belong to or are used by
known spammers.

The two words are, as far as I can see, used interchangeably, often in
the same message. "Blocklist" is apparently being actively promoted
instead of blacklist because of what some folks see as excessively
negative connotations with "blacklist," with the McCarthy hearings
usually coming to mind. Interestingly, the antonym, no matter which is
used, seems to still be "whitelist."

A relevant post on the Spamcop email list:
http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-list/2003-February/032187.html

An entry at SpamNews, from May 2003:
http://spamnews.com/blog/spamNEWS/C740927464/E76461799/

Usenet post about the terminology from 2001
http://groups.google.com/
groups?selm=3b9d0034.14112933%40localhost&output=gplain

This came to my attention because in March I installed SpamAssassin for
a client and do not remember encountering "blocklist" at all in any of
the supporting materials or on any of the web sites I read for
assistance. Yet, during the last two weeks--just six months later--I've
installed SpamAssassin for a different client, and I seemed to
encounter "blocklist" everywhere.

A quick Google News search for blacklist and spam shows that blocklist
has been in use for years by the anti-spam forces, but that it its use
has rapidly increased in the last 18 months. The usual caveats about
the accuracy of such searches apply.

9/10/2002-9/10/2003--13,100 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2002-9/10/2003--3010 hits for blocklist & spam

9/10/2001-9/10/2002--7840 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2001-9/10/2002--2100 hits for blocklist & spam

9/10/2000-9/10/2001--3680 hits for blacklist & spam
9/10/2000-9/10/2001--95 hits for blocklist & spam


Cheers,

Grant



--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org
American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Sep 10 17:34:01 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:34:01 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <a05010401bb84c12cb98c@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.133401.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
#cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
#spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
#Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
#which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
#speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
#quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
#years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).

Not to disagree with your intention, but with the way you've expressed
it: "sez" certainly does reflect pronunciation, and better than the
standard spelling "says" does -- i.e., hewing more closely to the
regularities of English spelling, in a way that a poorly educated native
speaker might produce. Would you say that THAT is what defines
eye-dialect?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Sep 10 17:36:02 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:36:02 -0700
Subject: First query after vacation
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bb84d73f8517@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.103602.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>:

> At 7:24 AM -0400 9/10/03, Dave Wilton wrote:
> >  > > Billionaire Bloomberg, scion of a wealthy Massachusetts
> >>  family, on the
> >>  other
> >>  > hand...
> >>  >
> >>  Scion of a wealthy family? Is that a joke?
> >
> >No, it's not. While he earned the billions on his own, his family was
> >definitely upper middle class and relatively well off. Not fabulously
> >wealthy, merely well to do, upstanding citizens of Boston suburbia.
>
> Well, there is a bit of an inconsistency here; if Bloomberg's
> biosketch is right, he's the son of a bookkeeper for a dairy and he
> "parked cars and took out loans to finance his education" at Johns
> Hopkins.  That doesn't fit my definition of "scion of a wealthy
> family" no matter how much stretching is done to notions of "well to
> do".  Of course, the claim may be that the information on the web
> site Enid linked us to is all phony and that his father actually
> owned the dairy, but it does seem unlikely that a wealthy young man
> whose parents were helping support him would have taken out a loan
> and spent his college parking cars on the side for fun...

First, consider the source. This is Bloomberg's official political bio as mayor
of NYC. It should not be considered "phony," (it is almost certainly absolutely
true in a technical sense) but we should also recognize that the bio has
been "spun" to achieve the desired political effect.

What was this dairy that his father worked for? How large was it? Was his
father an employee or was he a CPA in private practice who had a large dairy as
a client among other corporate clients?

The bio does not detail the extent of the college loans. 1958 was the start of
the federal student loan programs (the National Defense Student Loan program
was started in response to Sputnik). His Dad, the accountant, may have
recognized the value of a guaranteed, low-interest loan even if they could have
paid the tuition without it. Bloomberg would have been in on the early years of
this program.

Nor does the bio state what he did with the money he earned parking cars. Did
it go to tuition or was it beer money?

Even well off kids get student loans and work summer jobs.

Everything I have read about Bloomberg (which admittedly is not a great deal)
indicates that he had a privileged, upper-middle-class upbringing. Not
fabulously wealthy, but comfortable.

Still, none of this really has anything to do with the original point.
Billionaire Bloomberg will take care not to appear aloof and upper class in the
way he speaks. He is percieved as fabulously wealthy and privileged no matter
what his actual background. One should expect him to attempt "folksy" locutions
and avoid Latin and other "educated" phrases. Other politicians, like Cuomo,
don't have this problem. They can show off their erudition without being
labeled as being born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Wed Sep 10 18:41:10 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:41:10 +0000
Subject: eye-dialect
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.184110.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I immodestly quote from my "A glossary of sociolinguistics" (in the
USA: Oxford U. P., 2003):

"A term used to refer to the representation of nonstandard dialects
in writing, particularly with reference to spellings such as <wot>
for what where the spelling does not actually indicate a
pronunciation difference from that represented by the standard
orthography, but where it rather has the role of simply indicating
that the speaker is using a nonstandard dialect or low prestige
accent. For example, writing <o> instead of <a> in what actually
tells us nothing about the vowel the speaker is supposed to be using
and is probably rather a way of indicating that the speaker is using
a glottal stop at the end of the word rather than [t]."
--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:06:10 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:10 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0309101329530.16423388-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.140610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My point is that "sez" does not reflect pronunciation at all in the
influence it has on the reader. Even though the speaker says "sez,"
the "respelling" causes the reader to think that the speaker being
represented by the respelling is dull, uneducated, back-woodsish,
etc..... So eye-dialect (still 'traditionally') is defined as a
respelling which DOES NOT reflect any pronunciation different from
one suggested by the "standard" spelling. I am sure the idea that an
uneducated speaker might use such a spelling may play some part in
the association.

dInIs



>On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#We did this before, but I remind y'all that these examples below
>#cannot be eye-dialect (in the strict sense). "Eye-dialect" refers to
>#spellings which do NOT reflect pronunciation, e.g., "sez" for "says."
>#Nearly everyone says "sez," so the eye-dialect respelling is one
>#which has nothing to do with phonetic reality; it is used to mark the
>#speaker as boorish, nonstandard, ignorant, etc.... (I provided
>#quantitative evidence for these evaluations in an article in AS some
>#years ago (The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-36).
>
>Not to disagree with your intention, but with the way you've expressed
>it: "sez" certainly does reflect pronunciation, and better than the
>standard spelling "says" does -- i.e., hewing more closely to the
>regularities of English spelling, in a way that a poorly educated native
>speaker might produce. Would you say that THAT is what defines
>eye-dialect?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:08:23 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:08:23 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <p05200f03bb851f5c36dd@[81.152.178.67]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.140823.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course I couldn't have sed it better (or 'batter' as everbody
round me here in Michigan sez).

dInIs

>I immodestly quote from my "A glossary of sociolinguistics" (in the
>USA: Oxford U. P., 2003):
>
>"A term used to refer to the representation of nonstandard dialects
>in writing, particularly with reference to spellings such as <wot>
>for what where the spelling does not actually indicate a
>pronunciation difference from that represented by the standard
>orthography, but where it rather has the role of simply indicating
>that the speaker is using a nonstandard dialect or low prestige
>accent. For example, writing <o> instead of <a> in what actually
>tells us nothing about the vowel the speaker is supposed to be using
>and is probably rather a way of indicating that the speaker is using
>a glottal stop at the end of the word rather than [t]."
>--
>Peter Trudgill
>Professor of English Linguistics
>Fribourg University
>Av. de l'Europe 20
>1700 Fribourg
>Switzerland
>
>Telephone (UK):
>01603 618036

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Sep 10 18:19:12 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:19:12 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <l03130301bb839e9148a4@[12.107.146.236]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.111912.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I noticed a few years ago that an English friend (an academic who teaches
at Lancaster University) used "innit" as an all-purpose prompt for
confirmation, a la the German "nicht wahr?"  I.e., not merely "That's
funny, innit?" but e.g., "He's crazy...innit?"  There didn't even have to
be a form of "be" in the sentence, though I can't think of a
plausible-sounding example just now.

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:24 AM -0400 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Sep 10 19:40:45 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:40:45 -0700
Subject: Mamet
In-Reply-To: <200309101849.h8AIn0ZO003759@mxu3.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.124045.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now, what surprises me about this is that up until a recent British film,
I had always associated the phrase "innit" with Native American language
patterns in written materials (see Sherman Alexie, for example).  I was so
excited one day when I heard one Native American say to another, "Innit?"
Now I shall have to listen to the "over" accent, or stare, to be certain
of the speaker's background!

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Mamet
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I noticed a few years ago that an English friend (an academic who teaches
> at Lancaster University) used "innit" as an all-purpose prompt for
> confirmation, a la the German "nicht wahr?"  I.e., not merely "That's
> funny, innit?" but e.g., "He's crazy...innit?"  There didn't even have to
> be a form of "be" in the sentence, though I can't think of a
> plausible-sounding example just now.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:24 AM -0400 sagehen
> <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
> > I frequently heard "innit" for "isn't it" in England thirty years ago,
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH  Wed Sep 10 21:21:49 2003
From: peter.trudgill at UNIFR.CH (Peter Trudgill)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:21:49 +0000
Subject: innit
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.212149.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is an enormous body of literature on the invariant tag innit in
English English, The origin appears to be in London-based
Caribbean-influenced varieties, where it seems to have served
originally as a 'translation' of Caribbean English Creole 'no?".
It is worth noticing that such invariant tags are very common in
areas where English has a history of being learnt as a second
language e.g Welsh English invariant "isn't it?"; broad South African
English "is it?"; West African English "is it?", Indian English
"isn't it?"; Singaporean English "isn't it?/ is it?"

On English English:

Stenstr?m, A-B & G. Andersen. 1996. More trends in teenage talk: a
corpus-based investigation of the discourse items cos and innit.
Synchronic corpus linguistics. Amsterdam: Rodopi.

Krug, M. (1998). British English is developing a new discourse
marker, innit? A study in lexicalisation based on social, regional
and stylistic variation. Arbeiten aus Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
23(2), 145-197.

I GOES YOU HANG IT UP IN YOUR SHOWER, INNIT? HE GOES YEAH. THE USE
AND DEVELOPMENT OF INVARIANT TAGS IN LONDON TEENAGE SPEECH

Gisle Andersen, Department of English, University of Bergen

This paper investigates what seems to be a fairly recent innovation
in the London teenage vernacular - the invariant use of the
constructions 'innit?' and 'is it?'. Originally canonical questions
requiring person-, tense- and number agreement, these constructions
frequently occur as invariant tags in present-day adolescent speech.
Such a development has previously been attested in the Englishes of
Papua New Guinea, Singapore, South Africa etc, and a likely
hypothesis is that we are dealing with an aspect of language crossing
(cf Rampton 1995) in an ethnically diverse urban London.

In my presentation, I intend to outline the various syntactic and
pragmatic functions of the tags 'innit?' and 'is it?', and correlate
these linguistic findings with non-linguistic parameters such as
socioeconomic class, age and location, thus determining whether
sociological factors have a bearing on their distribution. Moreover,
I will attempt to characterise the processes of reanalysis involved
with reference to the theoretical framework of grammaticalisation.
Finally, I want to suggest certain other constructions which are
possible candidates for a similar development.

My study draws on data from The Bergen Corpus of London Teenage
Language (COLT), a 500,000-word corpus collected in 1993.



--
Peter Trudgill
Professor of English Linguistics
Fribourg University
Av. de l'Europe 20
1700 Fribourg
Switzerland

Telephone (UK):
01603 618036


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Sep 10 21:44:21 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:44:21 -0400
Subject: eye-dialect
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bb8517790034@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.174421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#My point is that "sez" does not reflect pronunciation at all in the
#influence it has on the reader. Even though the speaker says "sez,"
#the "respelling" causes the reader to think that the speaker being
#represented by the respelling is dull, uneducated, back-woodsish,
#etc..... So eye-dialect (still 'traditionally') is defined as a
#respelling which DOES NOT reflect any pronunciation different from
#one suggested by the "standard" spelling.

Exactly: does not reflect any pronunciation DIFFERENT FROM ONE SUGGESTED
BY THE "STANDARD" SPELLING. Not "do[es] not reflect pronunciation", as
you wrote earlier. "Difference" is part of the definition.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Sep 10 23:03:16 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:16 -0400
Subject: jazz 1912: Ben Henderson
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.190316.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Below is a biography of Ben Henderson, the baseball player who was quoted in the LATimes in 1912 as using the expression "Jazz Curve".  Since it was compiled through the Proquest Historical Newspapers database, it comes with the usual warnings regarding the many inadequacies of that service.  Still, for the purposes of the history of the word "jazz", a more complete sketch no doubt isn't needed.

BEN HENDERSON

Born in Council Bluffs, Iowa, October 31, 1886; first pitched for Omaha in 1903; pitched for Indianapolis during 1904 & 1905 (LATimes, November 4, 1906).

Star pitcher for Portland Beavers, 1906 Pacific Coast League champions (LATimes, October 3, 1906).

California League, an ?outlaw? league, founded in 1907; Henderson and other Pacific Coast League players ignored the reserve clause in their contracts; he signed with Stockton (LATimes, January 21 & March 7, 1907).  The National Association of ?organized baseball? blacklisted Henderson and the others (LATimes, May 17, 1907).

He was offered a contract by Toledo of the American Association (LATimes, June 3, 1907), but he ?failed to show his usual class, and was released? (LATimes, January 11, 1914).

Played for Stockton in 1908, pitching forty games and winning thirty five; his contract was bought from Portland by the Cleveland ?Naps? (LATimes & Washington Post, February 28, 1909).  Boston of the National League claimed a prior deal with Portland, but the claim was rejected by the National Commission (Washington Post, March 2 & March 31, 1909; LATimes, March 31, 1909).  He let this chance ?slip through his fingers? (LATimes, January 11, 1914).  At some point during his years with Stockton, he ?fell off the water wagon . . . with such eclat that he had to go to a hospital to recuperate? (LATimes, July 7, 1911).

Played for Oakland in the California League in 1910 (LATimes, April 8 & April 23, 1910).

Apparently he was reinstated by the National Commission during the winter of 1911; he was on the roster of the Portland Beavers in the spring of that year (LATimes, March 24, 27, 28 & 30, 1911).

There is a portrait of Henderson in the middle of his pitching motion, with the caption ?Pitcher who has been taken from Portland by the National Commission? (LATimes, April 9, 1911).  [I do not know what this refers to.]  He pitched and won his first game of the season, hit a home run and a double (LATimes, April 24, 1911).

He disappeared, having apparently been benched for some ?lapse?; is referred to as the ?Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty? (LATimes, July 7, 1911).  [I can?t explain this; the California League had ?$1600 salary limit? (LATimes, January 12, 1910) and he had no bargaining leverage with Portland, other than by refusing to play at all.]  He returned and won a game (LATimes, July 13, 1911).

?Oh, Pretty Fair.  WHAT I THINK OF COAST LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYERS, by a Big League Scout.  ***  Take Bennie Henderson, for instance.  He is a ?groove? pitcher and will never do in the big leagues unless he changes his style.  He lays them right over and even though he holds the minor leaguers to few hits he will never fool the big fellows, for that is the one thing they are waiting for ? a ball over the center of the plate, where they can at least drive it out with full power, even if it does not go safe.?
(LATimes, September 15, 1911).

The Beavers had a good season and were in the championship playoffs.  ?INSIDE ?DOPE? ABOUT THE PORTLAND STAR PITCHERS.  By Roger Cornell, (Trainer of the Portland team for two seasons, now with the L. A. Athletic Club.)  One of the best pitchers M?Credie will bring down for the Vernon Portland series is Bennie Henderson.
Henderson is a very reliable pitcher; but he likes the fans to keep quiet when he is in the box.  He has a great curve, and a good change of pace; is not a Marathon pitcher, but is very good if everything breaks right for him; must have good support.  Don?t blow your horns when he is in the box, as it rattles him.  (LATimes, October 4, 1911)

?He is a fine heaver when he is right but is a hard boy to control.?  (LATimes, October 22, 1911)

?Water Wagon Kid.  Booze Contract for Henderson.  M'Credie to Give Erratic Twirler Chance.  ***  [headline]  Walter M'Credie has decided to give Ben Henderson, his capable but erratic big right-handed pitcher, another chance to be good next season. . . .  ***  Ben will be put on what is known as a "booze contract," which means that he will receive but a nominal sum through the season as long as he behaves himself, and there will be a clause attached promising him a good, substantial bonus if he stays on the water wagon.?  (LATimes, December 19, 1911)

BEN'S JAZZ CURVE.  "I got a new curve this year," softly murmured Henderson yesterday, "and I'm goin' to pitch one or two of them tomorrow.  I call it the Jazz ball because it wobbles and you simply can't do anything with it."
As prize fighters who invent new punches are always the first to get their's Ben will probably be lucky if some guy don't hit that new Jazzer ball a mile today.  It is to be hoped that some unintelligent compositor does not spell that the Jag ball.  That's what it must be at that if it wobbles.  {LATimes, April 2, 1912)

He angered his manager by ?running the water wagon into the ditch and falling off? and was suspended.  ?I?ll just keep him on the suspended list and make him sweat a little.  He has made me sweat enough.  I think he is one of the greatest pitchers in the country and I could sell him back East tomorrow for $1500, but I do not need the money.  I guess this will be enough for Henderson.?  (LATimes, June 23, 1912)

?A general massacre is about to occur in the Portland baseball team ? according to a special dispatch to The Times.  ?McCredie is to let out pitchers Elmer Koestner, Speck Harkness, Harry Sutor and Bennie Henderson.  ***  McCredie has decided to trade the whole bunch.  ?My team hit well this season but my pitchers were punk,? he said.?  (LATimes, October 31, 1912)

I don?t know where he was in 1913; he was on the roster of the San Francisco Seals at the beginning of spring training, 1914 (LATimes, February 26, 1914.  ?What, Again?  BENNIE FALLS FROM WAGON.  HENDERSON HAS BEEN MISSING FOUR DAYS.?  [headline]  He disappeared from the training camp at Boyes Spring (LA Times, March 2, 1914) but returned (LA Times, March 8, 1914).  Nonetheless, he was on the opening day roster (LA Times, March 17, 1914), but disappeared again (LA Times, March 29, 1914).  [I don?t know whether he was kept on the Seals roster after his second lapse ? it rather seems not, since his name doesn?t appear in any accounts of baseball games during the season.]

He was released unconditionally by Salt Lake City of the Pacific Coast League (LATimes, May 5, 1915).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Sep 11 01:17:49 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:17:49 -0400
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.211749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As some of you may recall, I routinely show the original, uncut 56-minute
version of "American Tongues" in most of my university classes. I have
never shown (or even seen) the shorter, expurgated versions.

There has been discussion here from time to time suggesting that it is
inappropriate to show the full version because of its inclusion of
offensive uses of the n-word and the f-word. I have continued to show that
version - partly because I consider that my job is to teach about what
people actually think and say, not what they should think and say.

But, I have considered the other point of view, and this semester I
decided to try something new. I showed the film in an undergraduate
linguistics class last week. As usual, I warned the whole class about
various offensive scenes, including those depicting <hillbillies>. But I
also talked privately with the African-American students in the class
ahead of time and told then that I wanted to do something I had not done
before, that I wanted to ask their permission to show the film in class.
Their reaction was very interesting. They could hardly believe that a
professor was actually asking students for permission to do something.
They all gave me permission and told me that they very much wanted to see
the film. I showed the film and distributed the unofficial handout that
Dennis Preston I put together some years ago.

That was last week. Then on Tuesday of this week, students began their
brief oral reports telling us who they are as users of language. Two AA
students gave reports. I noticed that one of them used the label
European-American several times as a synonym for <white person> or
<whitey>. Clearly, she paid attention to both the video and the handout.

My assessment at this point is that it was quite beneficial to show the
video, to warn the students, and to talk privately with the AA students.
All the reports were full, lively, candid. I think the showing of AT
under these circumstances really freed up some students to talk about
attitudes and embarrassing moments, etc.

If you are not familiar with the uncut version, I recommend that you see
it. It is not appropriate for all audiences, but I think it can be very
effective as a teaching device in many university classrooms.

We also showed the film to all new TAs in the English Dep't this year -
and we will have a follow-up session on dialect diversity in the
classroom. New TAs do not teach courses independently their first year, so
we will have that session before they go into classrooms alone.

Bethany


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 02:58:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:58:44 -0400
Subject: Speakin' of those burnin' trousers...
Message-ID: <WED.10.SEP.2003.225844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from today's NYT, Sports D1

Selena Roberts, "Suspend Stars, Unless a Game Is at Stake"
[yes, that's ironic]

On Maurice Clarett, ex-student athlete who helped Ohio State U. win
their national football title last year and who is now suspended:

"But not all stars benefit from college coaching's depth chart for
delinquents, as Ohio State's Maurice Clarett discovered yesterday.
After the police charged him with lying about items stolen from his
car--a misdemeanor offense for fabrication--Coach Jim Tressel
responded as if this were the first Buckeye ever caught with his
pants on fire."

No mention is made of the proximity of telephone wires, of copper or
other construction, or of nasal prolongation.

Larry


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Sep 11 06:05:46 2003
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:05:46 -0500
Subject: Innit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0309101239050.178442-100000@homer07.u.washin
 gton.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.010546.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9/10/2003 12:40 PM -0700, J. Eulenberg wrote:
>Now, what surprises me about this is that up until a recent British film,
>I had always associated the phrase "innit" with Native American language
>patterns in written materials (see Sherman Alexie, for example).  I was so
>excited one day when I heard one Native American say to another, "Innit?"
>Now I shall have to listen to the "over" accent, or stare, to be certain
>of the speaker's background!

If I remember correctly, in Alexie's movie "Smoke Signals", characters who
were Indians from the Spokane/Coeur d'Alene area all used "innit" as a tag
question with considerable frequency.  However, characters who were Indians
from other areas did not.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 13:03:31 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:03:31 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <10.350f03ec.2c8c8657@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.090331.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and coiner
of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 16:08:15 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.120815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While hunting for Ben Henderson yesterday I found that I had wandered into a den of "social vagrants" -- it was quite inadvertent, I assure you -- really -- seemed like a respectable place -- I had no idea.

This was a series of stories in the LATimes from November 14, 1914 and after.  The headline to the original story was:
LONG BEACH UNCOVERS "SOCIAL VAGRANT" CLAN.  Thirty Men Heavily Fined or Given County-jail Sentences -- Church and Business men Included in List of Guilty Ones who, Police Say They Have Evidence to Show, were Organized for Immoral Purposes.  [from the story:] Officers Warren and Brown say that Lowe unfolded to them before his arrest a story of the existence of a society of "social vagrants," called the "606," whose members were all men and who met weekly.  ***  At the functions of this peculiar society all the members, on arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk underware and hosiery, and some wore women's wigs.  The members made up with powder and paint as for the stage, according to the recital by the officers, and the orgies were attented by at least fifty at each meeting.
Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1914, section II, p. 8  I do not find "social vagrant" in the on-line OED.

[A police officer testifies:]  [Lowe] came [into the room] again, while I was lying on the bed.  He asked me if I had ever heard of the Six-O-Six Club and the Ninety-six Club.  I said I had not.  He said that the Ninety-six Club was the best; that it was composed of the 'queer' people, that got together every week.  I asked Lowe why they called it the Ninety-six Club, and he said someting about turning the letters around, before and behind.  He said that the members sometimes spent hundreds of dollars on silk gowns, hosiery, etc., in which they dressed at sessions of this club.  He said that at these 'drags' the 'queer' people have a good time, but no one could get in without being introduced by a member in good standing.
Los Angeles Times, November 19, 1914, p. 10 (continued from p. 1)  HDAS has "drag", noun, 4b, "Homosex., a party held for transvestites and male homosexuals", with quotations from 1927 (2), 1930, 1933, &c.  It has "ninety-six", "Homosex., homosexual anal intercourse", with quotations from 1925, 1949, and "1947-51".  The 1949 passage reads "California term for reciprocal anal intercourse".

The Times reprinted an editorial from the Sacramento Bee, which quoted at length from a letter from an outraged citizen: "There is the pitiable, the most outrageous, part of all -- the jaded appetites of these loathsome degenerates, after a time, are not satisfied with each other; they demand young boys -- "chickens," they call them -- and they will stoop to almost anything to satisfy their desire in this regard."
Los Angeles Times, November 26, 1914, section II, p. 8.  HDAS has "chicken", noun, 9a, "Pris. & Homosex., a catamite; a boy who is or may be willing to engage in homosexual copulation", with the earliest quotation dated 1942.  It also has, under 3b, "Navy and USMC, a boyish and naive recruit; a raw recruit", with quotations from 1888, 1918 1942, &c.

Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that might contain "606".   I suppose the word "queer" must have been found in this sense well before 1914.

It appears that the Times came under a deal of criticism for reporting on this story, in part from the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce and other city boosters, and in part from moralists who felt that the the subject matter put it outside the realm of "the news that's fit to print".  Its defense with regard the latter objection, in part, was: "In printing such news it is not necessary to give filthy details or to print anything that may not be read in the family circle.  When it is said that the accused was charged with the same crime as that for which Sodom was destroyed and Oscar Wilde was imprisoned, or that he was accused of contributing to the delinquency of a minor female, or of misconduct with a child, the mature reader understands without the aid of a dictionary exactly what is meant and no law of decency is offended."
Los Angeles Times, November 21, 1914, section II, p. 4

The town fathers of Long Beach were also outraged by heterosexual "spooning" on the beach; one city council member proposed planting the beach with thorny cactuses to prevent its misuse after dark -- presumably a rhetorical flourish rather than a serious proposal, but one never knows.

The whole story is very interesting.  I intend to send a packet of more or less legible printouts to my friend Jonathan Ned Katz, the historian of gay America, and will also send one to anyone among us who wants it.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 17:14:54 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:14:54 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective
In-Reply-To: <200309111608.h8BG8P407956@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.131454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, George Thompson wrote:

> Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the
> unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that might
> contain "606".  I suppose the word "queer" must have been found in this
> sense well before 1914.

Actually, "queer" is the notable antedating in what you posted.  OED has
1922 as its first use of "queer" 'homosexual' as an adjective.  It is
interesting that I recently posted a 1914 antedating for "queer"
'homosexual' as a noun, with both antedatings coming out of Southern
California.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 11 18:41:26 2003
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:41:26 -0700
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309111309020.27095-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.114126.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s. He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors, assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony, Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.

Thank you for any advice.

Brenda Lester, Gradual Student

Macon, GA













---------------------------------
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From billw at WOLFRAM.COM  Thu Sep 11 18:50:57 2003
From: billw at WOLFRAM.COM (Bill White)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:50:57 -0500
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <200309111303.h8BD3aQ29202@wolfram.com> (Fred Shapiro's message
 of "Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:03:31 -0400")
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.135057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
> coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

The following sounds plausible:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html

   Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
   Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
   age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
   aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
   Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
   Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
   Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
   left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
   Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
   see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
   on the Louisiana Hayride".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
a biographer about that).

bw
--
Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Sep 11 20:07:14 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:07:14 -0700
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.130714.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I saw Elvis in the mid-70's I think they said it.  My mom took her younger sisters to see him in the 50's.  I doubt that those screaming girls would have noticed something like that.  Even had they heard it, it's been over 45 years and would not remember.
Fritz

>>> billw at WOLFRAM.COM 09/11/03 11:50AM >>>
On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
> coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?

The following sounds plausible:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html

   Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
   Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
   age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
   aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
   Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
   Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
   Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
   left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
   Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
   see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
   on the Louisiana Hayride".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
a biographer about that).

bw
--
Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 20:04:46 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:04:46 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.160446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That is interesting.  Certainly "queer" is the most important word in that posting.  I hadn't checked the OED for its date.

After I posted the message I made a few attempts to find stories of similar incidents ffrom before 1916 through Proquest, but (so far) have not succeeded.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 1:14 pm
Subject: Antedating of "Queer" as Adjective

> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > Thanks to the doings of the infamous Random House company and the
> > unspeakable Bertlesmann, we do not have the volume of HDAS that
> might> contain "606".  I suppose the word "queer" must have been
> found in this
> > sense well before 1914.
>
> Actually, "queer" is the notable antedating in what you posted.
> OED has
> 1922 as its first use of "queer" 'homosexual' as an adjective.  It is
> interesting that I recently posted a 1914 antedating for "queer"
> 'homosexual' as a noun, with both antedatings coming out of Southern
> California.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Sep 11 20:10:16 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:10:16 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.161016.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have made a quick check in the Proquest files of the LATimes, NYTimes, WashPost, &c. for "omar Colodny", "Colody and words" and "colodny and city college" and have found nothing.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Brenda Lester <alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:41 pm
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?

> Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar
> Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s.
> He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me
> that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history
> of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in
> Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a
> part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors,
> assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony,
> Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.
>
> Thank you for any advice.
>
> Brenda Lester, Gradual Student
>
> Macon, GA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 11 22:28:46 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:28:46 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20030911184126.50513.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.182846.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I. Colodny is listed (with Jerome C. Hixson) as author of "Word Ways", a
book published by American Book Co. in 1946 ... if that's of any interest.

I think the "I." stands for "Isidor".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:15:17 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:15:17 -0400
Subject: Pupusas (1955)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.191517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked the archives.  My Popik-posted pupusa was 1956.


!QUE RICO!:
RECIPES FROM LATIN AMERICA
Pan American Union
Washington, D. C.
(No date.  NYPL's CATNYP has 1955--ed.)

Pg. 2:  EL SALVADOR
Pupusas--Fillled Corn Pancakes...12

Pg. 12:
_PUPUSAS_
_(Salvadorean Tortilla)_
Cook a pound of corn meal with sufficient amount of water until it reaches the consistency of workable dough.  Put it aside.  Prepare a mixture of cooked and mashed kidney beans, crumbled, fried bacon or bacon cracklings and crushed bay leaves.  Now spread the corn meal dough thin and cut in size of small pancakes.  Spread the bean mixture on the tortilla covering each with another thin tortilla.  Fry in greased skillet as you would a hamburger.


(I did _not_ see "pupusas" in the South American food books of Cora Brown (1939) and Charles H. Baker Jr. (1951), which I'll discuss in my next post--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:49:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:49:56 -0400
Subject: Ceviche (1939) & Escabeche (1898)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.194956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CEVICHE

   From THE GREAT CEVICHE BOOK (Berkeley: Ten Speed Press, 2003) by Douglas Rodrguez, pg. 3:

   Don't confuse ceviche with escabeche, a similar marinated fish dish (also made with chicken, vegetables, and game) that includes citrus and vinegar and sometimes pickling spices for a sweet and sour taste.  The most obvious difference between fish escabeche and ceviche is that the fish in escabeche is sauteed before marinating, although it is still traditionally served cold or at room temperature.  In my opnion, both ceviche and escabeche evolved out of the same ancient necessity to preserve food with an acidic sauce.
   Ceviche is by no means a new culinary creation.  Variations of the dish have actually been around for centuries in many Central and South American countries.  In Peru, the Quechua highlanders of Inca times originally made ceviche-like dishes with only jewels from the sea, chiles, salt, and herbs.


   The word wizards of Merriam-Webster's 11th have "seviche" from the ancient times of 1951.
   There aren't a whole lot on English language cookbooks for South America before 1950.  There is THE SOUTH AMERICAN GENTLEMAN'S COMPANION (1951) by Charles H. Baker, Jr.
   The best for our purposes is THE SOUTH AMERICAN COOK BOOK (1939) by the Browns.  It's noted on page 333 that "the only South American contribution of this sort we've come across" is this OCLC WORLDCAT book title:

The American cook-book:
El libro de cocina Americano. Recipes collected and edited by The Association of American Women of Chile.
 Corp Author: Association of American Women of Chile.
Publication: Santiago, Chile, "LeBlanc", 1939


   We'll beat the Browns on every term--including ceviche--but we word wizards should do no worse than 1939.

THE SOUTH AMERICAN COOK BOOK:
INCLUDING CENTRAL AMERICA, MEXICO AND THE WEST INDIES
by Cora, Rose and Bob Brown
New York: Doubleday, Doran & Co.
1939

Pg. 17:
      PERUVIAN SEVICHE
   Lay thin fillets of any very delicate fish on a platter side by side.  Cover with juice of freshly squeezed limes, being careful to remove all lime pits.  Let stand away from dust at least 6-7 hours until lime juice has completely tendered fish.
   When fish is ready peel 1 large, firm ripe tomato.  Split crosswise and flick out seeds, then chop rather fine with very sharp knife.  Remove seeds and veins from 1 green pepper and chop.  Remove seeds and veins from 1 red sweet pepper and chop (or substitute 1 canned pimiento).  Mix tomato and peppers, adding 3/4 cup chopped white onion, 1 teaspoon minced parsley, 1 well-crushed garlic clove (which may be removed afterward) and 1 well-minced chili pepper (or 1-2 dashes Tabasco).  Add vinegar until mixture is semiliquid.  Season with salt, pepper and a very little sugar.  Drain fish fillets thoroughly.  Put them on platter and spread mixture over them.
   Served as a first course for luncheon, this freshly and delicately pickled fish is much better than any you'll find in the delicatessen store.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ESCABECHE

   I have a 1770 citation in the ADS-L archives, but this is always useful, just in case that great food dictionary (the OED) wants to add it.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
       WHAT PUERTO RICANS EAT
        From The Baltimore Sun..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec 26, 1898.                   p. 8 (1 page)
         Escabeche is fish, usually the large mero, sliced, salted, fried in oil, and laid several hours before being served in a sauce sufficient to cover the fish, and made of one-half part of vinegar and one part of olive oil, adding several laurel leaves, half a dozen slices of garlic, and a pinch of pepper.   It is eaten cold and will keep, well covered in a stone jar, for weeks.
        Sancocho is the representative dish of the island. (...)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Sep 11 23:57:51 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:57:51 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <ruooexrkvla.fsf@billw2lx.wolfram.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.195751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:50 PM -0500 9/11/03, Bill White wrote:
>On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>  Subject:      "Elvis Has Left the Building"
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Is anyone able to shed any light on the earliest evidence for and
>>  coiner of the expression "Elvis has left the building"?
>
>The following sounds plausible:
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.satchmo.com/nolavl/old16.html
>
>    Hayride Legend Dies: longtime Louisiana Hayride producer & emcee
>    Horace Logan passed away in Victoria, Texas on Sunday (Oct. 13) at
>    age 86; many future legends got their start on the Hayride (which
>    aired nationally from radio station KWKH-AM in Shreveport) during
>    Logan's tenure (1948-57), including Elvis Presley, Hank Williams,
>    Webb Pierce, Johnny Horton, Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells and Jim
>    Reeves; Hogan is credited with coining the catch phrase, "Elvis has
>    left the building", uttered while trying to quiet a frenzied
>    Hayride crowd after a Presley performance in '56; for more info,
>    see Logan's 1998 book, "Elvis, Hank, and Me: Making Musical History
>    on the Louisiana Hayride".
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
>in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
>use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
>a biographer about that).


You mean it didn't originate when Elvis Grbac, a somewhat
fair-to-middlin' quarterback for the S. F. 49ers and Kansas City
Chiefs, was pulled from a game in the early 1990s?

larry




>
>bw
>--
>Bill White                                               Office: 5N-X30
>Documentation Programmer                      Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234
>Wolfram Research                                      Fax: 217-398-0747
>http://members.wri.com/billw         Office hours: MTuTh 8a-4p WF 4a-12


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 12 00:17:47 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:17:47 -0400
Subject: "Elvis Has Left the Building"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bb86bc319464@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.201747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 1:50 PM -0500 9/11/03, Bill White wrote:
>>On Thu Sep 11 2003 at 08:03, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> said:
>>
>>
>>Wasn't the phrase also used at the end of his last televised concert
>>in the mid-to-late 1970s?  I always assumed that after its initial
>>use, it became a tradition at his concerts (you could probably contact
>>a biographer about that).
>
>
>You mean it didn't originate when Elvis Grbac, a somewhat
>fair-to-middlin' quarterback for the S. F. 49ers and Kansas City
>Chiefs, was pulled from a game in the early 1990s?

Aha...so that might be how it got to be a Sports Center/NHL2Nite
catch phrase on ESPN.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 01:55:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0400
Subject: minor antedating of "Hobo" (1888)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.215516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RHDAS has 1889 as the only verifiable cite.  They have a 'ca.1885' cite
which may or may not be the word.  OED uses 1889, as does MW(I think).

Using ancestry.com, "Hobo" can now be cited to the Mitchell Daily
Republican(SD) from October 5, 1888, page 1(I think).

    [ Grand Forks, Dak., Oct. 5.---A reward of $250 has been offered for
evidence that will lead to the arrest and conviction of the alleged "tramp"
or "hobo" who killed George Fulljames(sp?) in a prize fight Sept. 2 in this
city.]

One interesting thing here might be that the word "hobo" wasn't capitalized.
Also interesting is it is another Western US cite.  And this cite dovetails
nicely with the 1889 RHDAS cite which mentions that tramp and hobo are the
same.

I searched ancestry.com for more" HOBO + XXXX"  combinations than you can
imagine from 1880-1888.  Nada.

Looked for "Ho-boy" and "haut boy" from 1856-1888.  Nada.

The only other interesting cite was from 1894 which mentioned hobos in a
mining strike "war" in Colorado.  The interesting thing was that the cite
said that many of the hobos were "graders" for the railroad, which again
dovetails with an 1893 RHDAS cite.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Sep 12 02:05:16 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:05:16 -0500
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.210516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Tamony published in Colodny's magazine, there should be some correspondence between Colodny and Tamony preserved in the  Peter Tamony Collection of Americanisms, held at the Western Historical Manuscript Collection, 23 Ellis Library, Columbia MO 65201. The staff there is very helpful, although recent reductions in state funding have forced them to charge a higher fee for their services.
You might try contacting David Moore (Associate Director, WHMC: e-mail address: mooredf at umsystem.edu)

   Also, the message below seems to indicate that copies of Colodny's magazine are no longer available anywhere. Is this possible? I know that Tamony had at least some copies; his personal library was donated by his sister Kathleen to the  library of the University of Missouri-Columbia, so the copies should be there.
UMC kindly sent duplicate books, magazines, etc. to the University of Missouri-Rolla, and I vaguely remember Colodny's name and the thin issues of his magazine.  I might have ten or so in my office, which is not the same as saying they are readily locatable.

Gerald Cohen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Brenda Lester
        Sent: Thu 9/11/2003 1:41 PM
        To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
        Cc:
        Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?



        Any suggestions on where I can find information on I. Omar Colodny? He published a small magazine, Words, back in the 1930s. He taught at what is now LA City College. The folks there tell me that the college no longer has an archives. I am writing a history of "Among the New Words," which began as "The Living Language" in Colodny's little magazine. This history of the department is a part of my master's thesis, which also includes the editors, assistant editors, and remarkable contributors, like Peter Tamony, Adele Algeo, Mary Gray Porter, Mamie Meredith, and David Maurer.

        Thank you for any advice.

        Brenda Lester, Gradual Student

        Macon, GA


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 02:28:10 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:28:10 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.222810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To echo Doug's info--the book is available for about $10 on used book sites.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?


> I. Colodny is listed (with Jerome C. Hixson) as author of "Word Ways", a
> book published by American Book Co. in 1946 ... if that's of any interest.
>
> I think the "I." stands for "Isidor".
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:34:13 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:34:13 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.233413.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."

He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
students who remembered the word from the 1960's).

A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.

(Warning: this is a very rude word in Hindustani, so do not practice using
it around your Indian friends unless they are, you know, really really good
friends.)"

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101902


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:38:51 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:38:51 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000901c378de$bd006b60$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.233851.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:34:13PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
> Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."
>
> He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
> He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
> students who remembered the word from the 1960's).
>
> A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
> knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
> from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.

Appealing as this is, he doesn't suggest any plausible vector for
the movement of the word from Hindustani to American youth slang
of the late 1960s. That would be my first question about this
suggestion.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 12 03:47:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:47:35 -0400
Subject: Rocky Road (1927); Denver Sandwich (1924); Hollywoodland (1923)
Message-ID: <THU.11.SEP.2003.234735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ROCKY ROAD, DENVER SANDWICH

   It appears that the LOS ANGELES TIMES database is now up to 1930.  Only another 36 more years for "the whole nine yards."
  Here's some western foods.  See also the archives.  I'm still awaiting that first "cheeseburger" and "corndog."


      NOTED COOKBOOK OUT SOON
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1927.                   p. 2 (1 page) :
   ...the Congressional Club cookbook is about to be put on the market.  (...)
   Mrs. T. J. Geary, wife of former Representative Geary: ...Honolulu ham glace, American tagliarini, apple-raspberry jam, frozen rocky road, baked halibut creole, harlequin tomato rings.

      Early Shopping Food Pages
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 10, 1928.                   p. A9 (1 page)
(Illegible "rocky" text--ed.)


      CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestions For TOMORROW'S MENU
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 6, 1924.                   p. 6 (1 page):
              _DENVER SANDWICH_
   Make twelve slices of toast and butter.  Beat six eggs until light and beat into them two cupfuls of finely chopped boiled ham, two finely chopped small onions, and three finely chopped dill pickles.  Heat three tablespoonfuls of butter in a sautepan, turn in the mixture and stir and cook five minutes; spread over six slices of the buttered toast, cover with six slices of toast, place one sandwich on a lettuce-covered plate, garnish with sliced dill pickle and serve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOLLYWOODLAND

   1930 and still no "tinsel town."


      OPENING GREAT AREA TO HOMES
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 1, 1923.                   p. V5 (1 page):
Glimpse of First Unit of New Hollywood Tract.
Hollywoodland--The Old Sherman and Clark Ranch.
(...)
   _NAMED HOLLYWOODLAND_
   It is the intention of the subdividers to make the tract, which is being marketed under the name of Hollywoodland, into one of the most attractive residential sections of the city.

      Display Ad 321 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 10, 1923.                   p. V2 (1 page):
_Facts about Hollywoodland_
Hollywoodland has been opened for only ten weeks.


(Useful for etymologists of the "Hollywood Diet"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Sep 12 04:30:12 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:30:12 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000901c378de$bd006b60$5324a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.003012.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Lighter in RHDAS suggests that "origin unknown."
>
>He cites "choad" from 1968 to mean "penis."
>He cite "choan" to mean copulation, from 1974(although some cites were from
>students who remembered the word from the 1960's).
>
>A poster over at the Straight Dope Message Board, who I accept as a
>knowledgeable individual on many non-English words suggests that it come
>from "....the Hindustani word cod (pronounced chode) meaning 'fuck'.
>
>(Warning: this is a very rude word in Hindustani, so do not practice using
>it around your Indian friends unless they are, you know, really really good
>friends.)"

Sure, "choad" = "penis" was around in the 1960's. Recently we see it
meaning "perineum anterior to the anus", which I guess needed a good common
name while the membrum virile had too many. It's also been used for fecal
residues. It's a relatively obscure term which is obscene and can mutate to
other obscene meanings, maybe like "wazoo" which I've heard meaning "penis"
as well as "anus", or "cock" which is sexually ambiguous. The origin? I
have no immediate theory.

Sure, Hindi "chod" or so = "f*ck". But then Green's dictionary suggests
Navajo "chodis" = "penis" (for which I can't vouch personally), and in the
many languages in the world there are probably several other candidates.
Hindi "chod" is not used in the sense "penis" AFAIK (from my position of
abject ignorance of Hindi, I think this would most often be "land" or so,
sometimes "lavda"/"laura" or so, etc. ... but as in English I'm sure there
are hundreds of common and recondite synonyms). [Is Hindi "chod" related to
Hindi "chut" = "c*nt"?] I suspect pure coincidence, but surely the Hindi
origin can be considered as a possibility ... now we await the textual
evidence, or at minimum some convincing story about how and why US student
slang adopted Hindi "chod" (and not Hindi "land" etc.) ....

"Choan" = "sex" I've never heard myself AFAIK. I like Green's dictionary's
suggestion < "action" ("[ak-]chon"); it could also be apheretic for
"satisfaction" (of which one sometimes can't get none).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 12 07:50:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:50:36 EDT
Subject: Alfalfa (1836), Pisco (1836), Tambo (1805)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.035036.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The words wizards at the usual wizardry sites have 1845 for "alfalfa."
OED has 1849 for "pisco," a pleasant free drink to have when you fly Air Chile.
   I was just browsing through Peru.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
THE PRESENT STATE OF PERU
(By Joseph Skinner--ed.)
London: Richard Phillips
1805

Pg. 280:  These first clamours conclude by several good pots of _masato_*, to
assuage the thirst of sorrow;...
*To procure this drink, they boil a certain quantity of _Yucas_, and having
reduced them into a paste, or meal, moisten it with saliva, leaving it to
ferment for three days.  By the addition of water, it becomes a very powerful and
intoxicating liquor.
(Revised OED??--ed.)

Pg. 299:  The instrument which afford some degree of melody,  is that which
they name _marimba_.

Pg. 301:  This is commonly the  _guarapo_, a species of fermented liquor, and
sometimes brandy.

Pg. 368:  "Seeing that in this department of Hambato, there is an abundance
of excellent wheaten flour, and that a great portion of the commerce consists
in the sale of bread, we offer a premium of fifty piastres to the baker who
shall make and present to us a specimen of the wheaten bread here named _pan de
agua_, well fermented, well kneaded, and well baked."
("Pan de agua" is also a Puerto Rican bread.  This is Quito--ed.)

Pg. 406:  The masato is their favourite drink.

Pg. 471:  HAVING quitted Chavin of Pariaca by the new road, the traveller has
to proceed four leagues to the town of Xican, whence to the _tambo_* of the
Virgin, he passes over a league of fertile ground abounding in pastures.
*For these tambos, or baiting places, resembling in their institutions the
caravansaries of the East, travellers are chiefly indebted to the benevolence of
the missionaries.
(OED has 1830 for "tambo"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY FROM LIMA TO PARA,
ACROSS THE ANDES AND DOWN THE AMAZON
By Lieutenant W. Smyth and Mr. F. Lowe
London: J. Murray
1836
Boston: Milford House
1973

Pg. 34:  ...all seemed to be a little elevated by chicha or huarapo.

Pg. 110:  The husband is either employed as a labourer--for which he receives
two rials (equal to a shilling) a day for his food--or he is a small farmer,
cultivating Indian corn, coca, and a grass called _alfalfa_, which resembles
clover.

Pg. 111:  They rise early in the morning, and take a bowl of chupe or
masamora, ground Indian corn boiled.  These dishes are a sort of soup, with yucas and
potatoes, and made extremely hot with pepper.  This meal being over, they sit
down and chew coca for about half an hour, and then proceed to their work.
The food they are supplied with when working in the haciendas or farms consists
exclusively of beans and roasted Indian corn, called "cancha."

Pg. 137:  The friends of our canoe-men brought down masata, aguardiente,
chicha, and huarapo for us to drink;...

Pg. 147:  ...an old woman, who offered us a bowl of masata, which, though
very thirsty, we could not make up our minds or mouths to swallow, and we
declined it.  This liquor is made from yucas boiled, and then chewed by the women
till it is reduced to a pulp, when they spit it into a jar and leave it to
ferment, and after two or three days it is drank mixed with water, and will produce
intoxication.

Pg. 181:  During the repast we presented him with a small jar of Pisco Italia
(a cordial made at Pisco, near Lima, from the grape), which, in spite of many
temptations to open, we had reserved for this occasion.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:15:37 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:15:37 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912033851.GC25954@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.071537.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse,

No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

FWIW, in the 60's I was undoubtedly more sheltered
than many youth at that time, but I have never - then
or now (until this discusion) - heard or read the word
Choad/Chode:  use of this word just might not have
been very widespread.

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
....
> Appealing as this is, he doesn't suggest any
> plausible vector for
> the movement of the word from Hindustani to American
> youth slang
> of the late 1960s. That would be my first question
> about this
> suggestion.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:21:54 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:21:54 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912141537.311.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.102154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:15:37AM -0700, James Smith wrote:
> Jesse,
>
> No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
> Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
> Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
> European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
> contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

Yes, but none of these are likely to have contributed
a word that even 30 years later is still regarded as so
offensive that warnings about its use are given.
Granted, I wasn't very active during the '60s, but my
impression is that, as in the examples you give above,
Western youth culture was interested more in intellectual
branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words for
sex.

Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
come from there?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 12 14:52:46 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:52:46 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.105246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Ah, those high-minded hippies of the 1960s, looking to the East for its mystical insights while studiously avoiding any thought of sex.

        Actually, the perceived Eastern focus on sex was a big part of its appeal in the 1960s.  Compare "lingam" and "yoni," which had previously been used in English but were to some extent re-popularized around this time.  It's interesting that the meaning of "choad" shifted, but that may mean only that the Western youth culture was as intellectual as they thought they were.

        The Jargon File suggests, http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/choad.html, that "choad" was inherited through 1960s underground comics.  I can confirm that the underground comic artist Robert Crumb, and perhaps others, did use the term.  The underground comics had precisely the sort of uninformed interest in Eastern sex that could lead to an erroneous appropriation of the word.

        Of course, this means only that the derivation is plausible, and nothing more.  I don't have any copies of Zap Comix handy, but I don't think Crumb ever claimed an Eastern or other particular derivation for "choad."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:22 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?


Granted, I wasn't very active during the '60s, but my
impression is that, as in the examples you give above,
Western youth culture was interested more in intellectual
branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words for
sex.

Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
come from there?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 14:58:43 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:58:43 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.155843.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>No plausible vector?  Yogi Maharishi Mahesh, the
>Beatles in India, transcendental meditation, Kama
>Sutra, yoga, gurus, sitar music, etc. ... American and
>European youth in the 60's had great interest in and
>contact with the peoples and cultures of "Hindustan".

Sorry, but no. I am 100% with Jesse. The Hindi-US link isn't there. I was
very much 'in' the Sixties, wrote for the then 'underground press' and
subsequently wrote two books on the period, for both of which I interviewed,
inter alia, many veterans of the 'hippie trail'. Indeed, a number of close
friends took it, though I resisted. The travellers on the trail brought back
many things (cannabis, incense, hepatitis, a mercifully shortlived, in most
cases, religiosity) but Indian slang was not among them. Yes, there might be
such terms as _bhang_ and _charas_, both common names for cannabis, and
doubtless a few ill-digested references to _karma_, _dharma_ and the like
(all of which could have been picked up by any properly read beatnik without
leaving the City Lights Bookstore), but what would still have been a pretty
abstruse Hindi slang lexicon was not among them. I would suggest that to
pick up that level of vocabulary would have required a great deal more
intimacy than there was. Westerners were still essentially exotic, and once
they forsook the ashrams or the known hippie hotels and cafes (and the
attendant drug dealers) were not especially welcome. For instance my wife,
who went to India in '65, had a crowd throwing stones at her and had her
camera ripped open when she attempted to take perfectly innocent tourist
pictures in quite a large city. Hers was not an isolated experience.

If there is one proven vector of Hindi - whether slang or standard usages -
to Western slang then surely it's those who worked and lived in India for
far longer than the hippies, the British civil servants, Army personnel and
businessmen of the Raj. And while one can find their 'Anglo-Indian'
vocabulary in Yule & Burnell's _Hobson Jobson_ (1886), there are relatively
few slang terms that made the trip home. _Blighty_ (from _wilyati/bilyati_ =
foreign and meaning England) being the best known. But obscenities, for all
that Hobson-Jobson, however coyly, lists _banchut_ = motherfucker (Yule &
Burnell do not translate it, suggesting only that those who know it will do
so without further help, it contains that same _chut_ that is the subject of
this discussion on _choad_) seem to have stayed where they were. A few
insults, such as _badmash_, a scoundrel or _soor_, lit. a pig, and used as a
general putdown, might come home with an elderly military man, but they
didn't last.

So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.

Jonathon Green


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 14:58:47 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:58:47 -0400
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.105847.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I must congratulate the usual jokesters in our clan for not assailing us with whimsy over the typing error in the signature of "Brenda Lester, Gradual Student" -- a very appropriate term for many graduate students I have known, myself included.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:09:24 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:09:24 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA81@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.110924.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 10:52:46AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>  The Jargon File suggests,
> http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/choad.html, that "choad"
> was inherited through 1960s underground comics.  I can
> confirm that the underground comic artist Robert Crumb, and
> perhaps others, did use the term.  The underground comics
> had precisely the sort of uninformed interest in Eastern sex
> that could lead to an erroneous appropriation of the word.
> Of course, this means only that the derivation is plausible,
> and nothing more.  I don't have any copies of Zap Comix
> handy, but I don't think Crumb ever claimed an Eastern or
> other particular derivation for "choad."

There's no question about this, and HDAS cites Zap Comix
as its first example.

I'll let Jonathon "I was there" Green's response stand
for me as to the other point.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 15:22:19 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:22:19 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.162219.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'll let Jonathon "I was there" Green's response stand
> for me as to the other point.

Right on, Jesse. Power to the OED!

JG


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:20:02 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:20:02 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912142154.GA28951@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.082002.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:

> Yes, but none of these are likely to have
> contributed
> a word that even 30 years later is still regarded as
> so
> offensive that warnings about its use are given.

Probably none of those would have directly contributed
- would have directly introduced the word into English
- and that is what you're looking for apparently, but
the cultural contact and interest was there.

Several who have responded to this subject - including
me - have never encountered the word.  How widespread
is it's use in English?  Identifying the group that
uses it, or that used it 30-40 years ago, will narrow
down the origin/vector.

... in the examples you give
> above,
> Western youth culture was interested more in
> intellectual
> branches of Eastern cultures than in obscene words
> for
> sex.

Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
hormone-crazed youth.  After the visit with the yogi
or the sitar lesson, BS'ing with a local over tea or
beer, that's when it would have come up.

> Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
> Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
> come from there?

Focus on the group that first used it in English, and
you might find other, similar words.  ("Guru" has been
around for a long time, but it seems to me that this
was the period during which "guru" came into popular,
common use.)

> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:34:19 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:34:19 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912152002.99983.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 08:20:02AM -0700, James Smith wrote:
> --- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>
> > Also, with this deep interest in various aspects of
> > Indian culture, are there any _other_ slang terms to
> > come from there?
>
> Focus on the group that first used it in English, and
> you might find other, similar words.  ("Guru" has been
> around for a long time, but it seems to me that this
> was the period during which "guru" came into popular,
> common use.)

I've focused quite extensively on the slang of the late 1960s,
as have others here, and I have not found other, similar
words. _Guru_ is irrelevant; I freely concede that terms
referring to yoga, TM, sitar-playing, and so forth had
significant increases in their currency in this era. I'd like
to know other slang terms of this era, perhaps ones relating
to sex, that derive from Eastern languages. There should be
hundreds of them, with all those hormone-crazed hippies
getting together for beer after their meditation sessions.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:38:11 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:38:11 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        You don't like "lingam" and "yoni"?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 11:34 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?


I'd like to know other slang terms of this era, perhaps ones relating
to sex, that derive from Eastern languages. There should be
hundreds of them, with all those hormone-crazed hippies
getting together for beer after their meditation sessions.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 12 15:44:42 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:44:42 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C654036E891A@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.114442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 11:38:11AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         You don't like "lingam" and "yoni"?

I love them dearly. They're not slang, however.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Sep 12 16:03:48 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:03:48 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.170348.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Again I must back Jesse. While we have had suggested a variety of terms that
relate to India, or more properly that cultural subset of India as
experienced by the relatively small group of Western hippies who actually
visited and who brought such terms home (or at any rate helped spread their
popularity), we have yet to see cited any examples of actual Hindi or for
that matter Urdu, Tamil, Malayalam or indeed the slang of any other
indigenous Indian language that might have been adopted by Westerners.
_Choad_ itself is at best debatable - and in my opinion fails to make the
cut. In the hope of first-hand evidence I called up a friend, a veteran of
late 60s/early 70s Indian trips. Aside from backing my belief that the
hippies did not encounter such slang, he found the idea of 'sitting round
having a beer with the locals' after a hard day at the ashram simply
risible. It didn't happen. I accept that one friend does not make an
incontrovertible proof, but as Jesse points out, and my own researches back
him up, this supposedly widespread lexicon of slang, born in the Sixties and
rooted in Indian languages, simply isn't there.  .

Jonathon Green


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 16:48:56 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:48:56 -0400
Subject: Jazz: Bert Kelly
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.124856.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According Peter Tamony's article in JEMF Q (1981) on the history of the word "jazz", Bert Kelly, the bandleader who figures in Gerry Cohen's recent summary of material on the work -- he played in San Francisco with Art Hickman in 1914, then went to Chicago in late 1914 with a band that came to be called a "jazz band" -- published an autobiography called "I Created Jazz" through Vantage, the notorious vanity press.

The book isn't in RLIN or WorldCat.  I have also tried searching ABEBooks for it.  I have just spent a deal of time in the Proquest Hist Newspapers file trying to find a notice of this book in the weekly advertisements that Vantage placed in the NYTimes and have found nothing.  It also seems that though Kelly became a more-or-less prominent NYC businessman, he did not get an obit in the Times or any mention while he was alive.

Tamony and Kelly had correspondence, so Tamony's information ought to be correct?

What happens to Vantage books?  Presumably the press produced a hundred copies or so or each title, most of which would have wound up in the hands of the author, sooner or later.  As Thoreau said of Walden, I have a library of 750 books, 675 of which I wrote myself (quoted from memory).  I suppose that the author would pretty soon run out of friends who would be willing to take a copy, suitably autographed -- maybe would run out of friends entirely.  Maybe the 25 or 50 copies the author died owning would wind up in the recycling bin, but surely some got into used book stores?  But as a test, I checked ABEBooks for 6 titles from various Vantage ads, and found only 2 of them: P. A. Alf's The Magic Power of Making Money and a book of essays called Poetaster's Scrapbook are available, 2 copies each.  I didn't find Y. C. Sturgis' Oh, My Son, Forgive Me, or Kandy Ashley's Teddy Bears, Tears and something else, I didn't copy the full title -- the life story of a nursery school teac
her -- or Marjorie M. Booker's To Hell with Male Chauvinism, or Fleming Martin's Despair in a Creole Garden.  Where'd they all go?  Personal narratives by women are all the rage these days in the academy, so Kandy's book would be highly relevant.  Anyway, wherever these books are, there we will find Kelly's book too, I suppose.

Speaking of personal narratives, I had forgotten to note the author and title of the life story of a driver-ed teacher and so couldn't look for it in ABE.  But it was by a man, and so of no academic interest.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Sep 12 17:13:54 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:13:54 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <20030912152002.99983.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.131354.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:

> Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
> hormone-crazed youth.

Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
transcendant.  Would someone serious enough about eastern
religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
smutty street talk to describe the sex act?  It seems more likely to
me that they'd go the euphemizing route.

Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the cows
come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios.  There needs to be
something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
seriously.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 12 17:32:09 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:32:09 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <3F61C692.529.F78F4CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.133209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:
>
>>  Who are you trying to kid?  We're talking about
>>  hormone-crazed youth.
>
>Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
>transcendant.  Would someone serious enough about eastern
>religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
>smutty street talk to describe the sex act?  It seems more likely to
>me that they'd go the euphemizing route.
>
>Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the

[sacred]

>cows
>come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
>just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios.  There needs to be
>something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
>OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
>seriously.
>
Indeed; an alternate equally wild-eyed (but more Occidental)
speculation would posit R. Crumb (or whoever) deriving it via a
spelling pronunciation of Fr. _chaud_.  Which I'm not endorsing.

larry


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 12 18:34:34 2003
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:34:34 -0700
Subject: I. Omar Colodny, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <a66dfaa67601.a67601a66dfa@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.113434.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mr. Thompson, that was not a typo. The "gradual student" term is a running joke in my family, as in "When is she going to finish?"  Thanks. I feel better.

best regards,
brenda


George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
I must congratulate the usual jokesters in our clan for not assailing us with whimsy over the typing error in the signature of "Brenda Lester, Gradual Student" -- a very appropriate term for many graduate students I have known, myself included.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Fri Sep 12 23:02:19 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:02:19 -0500
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL01TaJQx5TFKtY0002559a@exmail01.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.180219.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for reporting on this, Bethany. It's helpful to hear about different
approaches in classrooms.

It seems to me that, given the asymmetric relationship between the
instructor and the students, students are not truly free to withhold
permission to show the video. I've run into this in another situation: at
the first class meeting, I like to take a photo of every student. I used to
say: "if you'd rather not have your picture taken, just let me know", but it
became evident that people felt obligated to conform. Then I thought I found
a perfect solution: I send around an attendance sheet with two columns
labeled "sign here if it's OK to take your picture" and "sign here if you'd
rather not have your picture taken" and say that it's perfectly all right to
sign in the second column, even if nobody else does. In some groups, people
do seem to feel free to opt out of being photographed, but once a student
signed in the first column reluctantly, muttering very quietly: "I want to
be nice". And in the video permission situation, it would be obvious to them
that you would be inconvenienced if they say no--you'd have to re-plan the
whole class meeting. Still, you did consult them, and obviously that's
vastly different from business as usual.

Your comments made me think again of a question I wonder about from time to
time. What if non-African-American students are offended at the racial slur
on the video on behalf of African Americans? Is that offense less important
than that of group members themselves, or should we consult everyone?

-Mai, resigned to being stuck in an institutional role in interactions with
students


> From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:17:49 -0400

> As some of you may recall, I routinely show the original, uncut 56-minute
> version of "American Tongues" in most of my university classes. (...)
>
> There has been discussion here from time to time suggesting that it is
> inappropriate to show the full version because of its inclusion of
> offensive uses of the n-word and the f-word. (...)  and this semester I
> decided to try something new. I showed the film in an undergraduate
> linguistics class last week. As usual, I warned the whole class about
> various offensive scenes, including those depicting <hillbillies>. But I
> also talked privately with the African-American students in the class
> ahead of time and told then that I wanted to do something I had not done
> before, that I wanted to ask their permission to show the film in class.
> Their reaction was very interesting. They could hardly believe that a
> professor was actually asking students for permission to do something.
> They all gave me permission and told me that they very much wanted to see
> the film. I showed the film and distributed the unofficial handout that
> Dennis Preston I put together some years ago.
(...)


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Sep 12 23:18:19 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:18:19 -0400
Subject: "American Tongues" revisited
In-Reply-To: <BB87BAAB.1348%mkuha@bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.191819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mai Kuha wrote:
>It seems to me that, given the asymmetric relationship between the
>instructor and the students, students are not truly free to withhold
>permission to show the video. I've run into this in another situation: at
.... >be nice". And in the video permission situation, it would be obvious
to them >that you would be inconvenienced if they say no--you'd have to
re-plan the >whole class meeting. Still, you did consult them, and
obviously that's >vastly different from business as usual.

Yes - I think it is the act of asking that is important. Clearly, there is
a great power inbalance. But - for the record - I was prepared to hear
no, and I had worked out a plan - my situation is made easier by the fact
that the video is available to all students in our library's Media Center
(until recently, our AV Center).

>Your comments made me think again of a question I wonder about from time to
>time. What if non-African-American students are offended at the racial slur
>on the video on behalf of African Americans? Is that offense less important
>than that of group members themselves, or should we consult everyone?

Good question.

I sometimes think that the best solution is simply to mention the
availability of the film, then forbid everyone to watch it! Or engage a
student's help, one who would ask about the film, so I could tell
everyone not to watch it under any circumstances!

(I AM kidding - my students are generally much more mature than that.)

Bethany


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Sep 13 00:57:22 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:57:22 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000801c3793e$603ba240$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.SEP.2003.205722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... for all that Hobson-Jobson, however coyly, lists _banchut_ =
>motherfucker ....

The Web edition shows "banchoot", "beteechoot" (with some oblique
explanation in French and Dutch, I think) ... I think the usual modern
forms for Googling might be "behn chod", "beti chod" respectively. These
are, I believe, respectively "sister-f*cker", "daughter-f*cker" or so ...
of course there is another one referring to the mother, Googleable as
"madarchod" etc. None of these AFAIK entered US English back in the day.
 From India we obtain instead the relatively elevated "lingam", "yoni",
"Kama Sutra".

Is there any documentation or evidence for the Navajo origin BTW?

-- Doug Wilson


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Sat Sep 13 07:38:12 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:38:12 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.083812.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The Web edition shows "banchoot", "beteechoot" . . . sister-fucker

My bad. You are of course correct - I was citing Hobson-Jobson from memory. 
 
> Is there any documentation or evidence for the Navajo origin BTW?

My bad again. Yes there was, albeit, as I recall, lacking in any substantial detail, but in writing the 1998 Cassell Dict. Slang I was not allowed to offer cites, so, foolishly, I failed to keep them. I am in the process of repairing this and the results will, I hope, appear in 2006. That, however, doesn't bring back the source of my Navajo root for choad. That this frustates me as much as it doubtless irritates those who would like some evidence of this etymology is of course no excuse.

In the meantime I have mailed Ramesh Krishnamurthy, formerly of COBUILD, who has knowledge both of Indian languages and of lexicography, and I hope that he may be able to cast some light on the subject as regards the supposed Hindi.origin of what Eric Partridge would doubtless have termed a 'prize-problem word'.

Jonathon Green


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 13 17:01:15 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:01:15 EDT
Subject: BUTTER PADS
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.130115.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sign on a container filled with small packets of butter at a bagel shop in
Chicago-O'Hare Airport:

BUTTER PADS

It is easy enough to see how this came about, but I wonder if anyone has ever
seen this before.

Obviously, the ends of words are not the part about which people are least
readily confused.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Sep 13 17:11:42 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:11:42 -0400
Subject: Minor Antedating of "Gobbledygook"
In-Reply-To: <200309120154.h8C1sgI08941@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.131142.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the great modern word-coinages is Maury Maverick's "gobbledygook"
(the Maverick family gave two major words to the English language).  OED
and HDAS have citations from April 1944.  Here is a slight antedating:

1944 _Wash. Post_ 30 Mar. 3  Now Maury [Maverick] gets hot. "Stay off the
gobbledygook language.  It only fouls people up.  For the Lord's sake, be
short and say what you're talking about."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Sep 13 17:25:16 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:25:16 -0700
Subject: 'heartburn'
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.102516.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A recent article in the NY Times had a use of "heartburn" that
brought me up short:

Major Stephan, who is looking for work after taking a furlough from a
commercial airliner, said he did not understand why some troops in
Iraq were complaining. "I have real heartburn about the people you
see on television griping about how they're stuck over there". . .
(NY Times, 9/3/03)

I had always thought that 'hearburn' in its extended sense referred
to a carking anxiety, as in:

"You're compressing a two-year campaign cycle into two months, with
all of the heartburn and anxiety that entails," said Mark Bogetich.
(LA Times, 8/30/03).

But the use to mean "outrage or anger" is well attested,  as e.g. in:

Cable's forced diet of programming is giving viewers heartburn. The
average bill now tops $ 40 a month, up 50% since 1996... (USA TODAY,
8/26/03)

For years, the Hormel Foods Corp. has watched as the name of its
famous and popular product also has come to mean junk e-mail, a
source of heartburn and anger for computer users everywhere. (Wash
Post 7/1/03)

And actually the OED gives  "Rankling jealousy, discontent, or enmity."

I wonder how other people understand this word.

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 13 17:38:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:38:04 EDT
Subject: Pimp Slap; New York Sports Express; Snopes
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.133804.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another brutal 11-hour day of parking tickets on Friday, with another
brutal week ahead.  What other scholars work at McDonald's?


PIMP SLAP--NEW YORK POST, TV Sports section, 12 September 2003, pg. 72, col.
2:

_"No offense intended"_
_Scott defends "pimp slap" comments_
    By ANDREW MARCHAND
   When you watch ESPN'S _SportsCenter_, you shouldn't have to explain to
your kids what "pimp slap" means.
   But this past Sunday night, Stuart Scott, who has two daughters, used the
term to describe how the Raiders beat the Titans in last year's playoffs.
   "There is absolutely no offense intended toward anyone, especially women
and especially people who might think I was irresponsible," Scott said when
asked to bottom-line his view after a half-hour, one-on-one debate on the topic.
   "I don't look at the expression in that way.  I look at the expression
_pimpin'_ only meaning swagger, confidence, someone who gets beaten so badly it
takes away their confidence.
   "That is an interpretation that has probably been driven by my culture, by
my friends,  That's how I interpret it.  That is the only meaning.  I don't
even think about it any other way."
   This reasoning doesn't fly because Scott--like him or not--is emulated  by
kids.  The term _booya_ is part of the mass culture, mostly because of Scott.
 He does commercials.  With this comes responsibility.  Using a term that is
derived from beating women is wrong.
   Scott intends to ask his wife and his friends if he should use this term
again.


NEW YORK SPORTS EXPRESS--NEW YORK PRESS (a free weekly, like the VILLAGE
VOICE) has a new free publication this year called NEW YORK SPORTS EXPRESS..  The
writing is a combination of ESPN's Stuart Scott plus David Spade.  If you're
interested in this type of "snarky" language, check it out at
www.nysportsexpress.com.  For example, it's not enough to say that New York Knick forward
Antonion McDyess has had many surgeries.  He's had (as written this week) "more
surgeries than Michael Jackson."  Ugh.  The "smart" commentary on the Kobe Bryant
rape trial is sponsored, of course, by back-pages ads for prostitutes.

SNOPES--I've written another letter to the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for a "Windy CIty"
correction, so expect a correction right away.  This has gone on for seven
years.
   I've also written Snopes.com (the Urban Legends page) to add "Windy City."
 I'd written to Snopes before.  Carl J. Weber or others can also write.
   If you type in "hot dog" and "Dorgan" into Google (not hard, but believe
me, no one who writes for a newspaper can do this), Snopes.com is the first hit
that you'll see.  My work appears without credit.


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Sep 13 18:25:57 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:25:57 -0700
Subject: Choad/Chode--ask RCrumb
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.112557.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

R. Crumb is still alive.

Why doesn't someone just ...... ask him?

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Choad/Chode--origin?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>On 12 Sep 2003, at 8:20, James Smith wrote:
>
>> Who are you trying to kid? We're talking about
>> hormone-crazed youth.
>
>Yeah, but these were hormone-crazed youth with a jones for the
>transcendant. Would someone serious enough about eastern
>religion to have traveled all the way to India be inclined to use
>smutty street talk to describe the sex act? It seems more likely to
>me that they'd go the euphemizing route.
>
>Of course, we can speculate and psychologize until the

[sacred]

>cows
>come home, but without solid linguistic backing it's all basically
>just an exercise in creating fantasy scenarios. There needs to be
>something more than plausibility behind a hypothesis before the
>OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary publisher) takes it
>seriously.
>
Indeed; an alternate equally wild-eyed (but more Occidental)
speculation would posit R. Crumb (or whoever) deriving it via a
spelling pronunciation of Fr. _chaud_. Which I'm not endorsing.

larry

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Sep 13 20:06:47 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:06:47 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--ask RCrumb
In-Reply-To: <20030913182557.5719.qmail@web41404.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.160647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[Sorry, a number of list postings have failed to reach me. I'm responding
to the Web record of the list.]

J. Despres (I think): "There needs to be something more than plausibility
behind a hypothesis before the OED (or Merriam, or any reputable dictionary
publisher) takes it seriously."

I don't know that this is true.

[Whether it should be, to what degree, whether anybody should care, etc.
are questions open to discussion, I suppose.]

Just to take one example which I mentioned here a while ago: OED and M-W
inter alia give "putain" (French) as the ancestor of "poontang" ... some
with qualifications such as "probably" or "possibly".

I would say that presenting an etymology in in the dictionary at all --
even with "possibly" -- qualifies as "taking it seriously" (although that's
not the same as "accepting it fully").

But when a correspondent presented me with an alternative candidate
etymology, approximately or almost equal in superficial plausibility IMHO,
and I went to the books, I couldn't find any "smoking gun" documentation --
or even any primary documentation at all -- of the "putain" etymology ...
and the M-W and OED and other editors (who were so kind as to respond to me
on this list and otherwise) denied having any firm evidence at hand. I find
the favored etymology simply asserted (or quoted from privately
communicated assertion) in "American Speech" several decades ago without
any supporting documents or even any supporting reasoning. [BTW, I believe
there is room for considerable doubt on this one, although the favored
speculation is arguably at least as plausible as any of the several other
specific hypotheses which I can put forth.]

I'm sure there are thousands of other unsupported etymologies given in the
big dictionaries; this is just one which I've researched and considered
myself recently.

My own opinion FWLIW is that if a good guess is available it should be
presented in the dictionary (with "possibly" or "speculatively" or whatever
if appropriate); of course an editor must still decide what is good enough.
[IMHO the proposed Hindi origin of "choad" is a superficially poor guess,
unworthy of promulgation in absence of further evidence.]

-- Doug Wilson


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Sep 13 22:00:06 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:00:06 -0500
Subject: Chinese spammer's attempt at English
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.170006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The justice is prevailed invitation book justice and is started
construction that Cheng Goujian connections the ground brick of
technological research institute production meeing the colored coupler
of seam , and fills the market blank space .
Its bright colorful and practical environmental protection and putting
in order hygiene is convenient , and eliminates the black dirt that the
ground brick met in stitching , and clears away the germs to multiply
ground , and delivers you a clean habitation , and protects your body
health .
Sincerely levying the various places sole  always sells on commission ,
and halts local vocational work manager , and vocational work
representative , specialty and sparetime all can
The tel : 0533-7589876's fax : 0533-7553289's postal chest :
Y863 at tom.com' address : www.jczb56.com QQ:102646997 addresses :
20#12-2-501's postal in Shandong Zibo Linzi City ox mountain path is
compiled : 255400 contact person : Xia Shizhuan
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 13 23:22:56 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:22:56 -0400
Subject: snopes and hot dogs
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.192256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

Actually, snopes isn't capitalized.

I'll write to Barbara and suggest she give you a credit line.

But, in her defense,  she does a pretty good job.  She used Metcalf and
Barnhart, a state of the art book when it was published.  She gave them
credit.  Just because Metcalf and Barnhart didn't give you specific credit
about the term, but rather said in their intro that your contributions to
ADS-L were helpful in a general way, you probably should take up your "beef"
with them.  No need to "dog' her about it.

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: Pimp Slap; New York Sports Express; Snopes


> SNOPES--I've written another letter to the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for a "Windy
CIty"
> correction, so expect a correction right away.  This has gone on for seven
> years.
>    I've also written Snopes.com (the Urban Legends page) to add "Windy
City."
>  I'd written to Snopes before.  Carl J. Weber or others can also write.
>    If you type in "hot dog" and "Dorgan" into Google (not hard, but
believe
> me, no one who writes for a newspaper can do this), Snopes.com is the
first hit
> that you'll see.  My work appears without credit.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 01:15:24 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:15:24 -0400
Subject: Rodeo, Canaca, Pisco, Tambo, Duende (1831)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.211524.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CANACA

   "Kanaka"--sometimes said to be related to "Canuck"--is given in the OED from 1840.  The following book (three volumes) was a nice read, with some great notes.


CAMPAIGNS AND CRUISES,
IN
VENEZUELA AND NEW GRENADA,
AND IN
THE PACIFIC OCEAN;
FROM 1817 to 1830
in three volumes
("Vowell, Richard Longeville" is handwritten as the author--ed.)
London: Longman and Co.
1831

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 133:  They also make considerable quantities of a thick, dark-colored, syrup, called here (Pg. 134--ed.) _melado_, or _miel_, which they use with cheese, and _mazamurra_, a sort of hasty pudding, made of boiled maize, bruised on a stone.  On some few plantations they boil the syrup down, without clarifying it, and pour it into moulds, where it forms a coarse, ungranulated substance; called, according to the shape of the moulds, _papelon_ and _panela_.  On the coast of Peru, where it is also made, the natives give it the name of _chancaca_.
   ("Mazamorra" has over 4,500 Google hits, mostly in Spanish--ed.)

Pg. 178:  The walking dress, worn by the Bogotenas, is singular and becoming: it consists of the _saya_, _mantilla_, and _sombrero_.  The _saya_ is merely a skirt, which covers the clothes that are worn in the house; and is made either of fine black kerseymere, or sarsnet, with generally two or more deep fringes of broad black lace, or silk net, with tassels and black bugles.  It is so narrow, that the wearers cannot possibly take long steps; and, when they have to pass a gutter in the streets, they are obliged, literally, to take a standing jump, with both feet close together.
   (OED has 1841 for "saya"--ed.)

Pg. 220:  Well may the Spaniards be called throughout South America, _Los Godos,_--the Goths! a name which they have richly merited, by this, and innumerable similar instances of ignorance, rapacity, and devastation, that have disgraced them in that part of the world.
   ("Gogo" is not recorded?  I found it in another book, also.  Similar to "Gringo"?--ed.)

Pg. 260:  There were on board several _Canacas_, (Sandwich islanders), who, it is well known, are all excellent swimmers.

Pg. 260:  ...for our salt provisions, and the jerked beef, called on this coast _charqui_, had been brought all the way from Chile, and was in a very bad condition.

Pg. 260:  They could by no means be prevailed on to taste the soup, or rather stew, that was made of them; although it was extremely (Pg. 261--ed.) palateable, and had even plenty of Pisco wine put in it, for the purposes of tempting them to lay aside their scruples respecting it.

Pg. 272:  A barrel of Pisco aguardiente, sent them from on board, completed their joy.
   (See ADS-L archives for "Pisco" and "Pisco Punch"--ed.)

Pg. 310:  The refreshments always handed round at these Chinganas is _punche_, made of small branches and leaves of the _culen_ plant boiled in water, with some allspice.  This beverage being sweetened, and mixed with aguardiente, is usually cooled with lumps of ice, or frozen snow, from the Cordillera.
   In Autumn, the _rodeo_ takes place, on every large estate in Chile; and is a season of jubilee and merriment among the Huazos and peons throughout (Pg. 311) the country.  This word literally signifies, _the surrounding_, and implies the operation of collecting and driving together all the cattle of the _estancia_, for the purpose of taking account of them, and branding such as have not yet received the proprietor's mark; which is always some strange looking hieroglyphic, as letters are never used for this purpose.  In the rodeo, the good horsemanship of the Huazos, and their dexterity in the use ofthe lazo, are conspicuously displayed.
   (The usual word wizards have 1834 for "rodeo"--ed.)

Pg. 462:  NOTE 6, p. 33.
   _Tazajo_, called on the West coast _cahrqui_, is beef dried in the sun.  The flesh of the bullock is cut into long narrow slices, not more than half an inch thick, which are hung up in the open air, and frequently turned.  They soon become perfectly hard, retain no unpleasant smell, and will keep good for considerable time.  In some parts of the country, where the air is damp, as in the neighborhood of lagoons, and in the Llanos of Venezuela, which are intersected by numerous rivers and creeks, the strips of beef are sprinkled with a little salt, previous to being hung up to dry.

Pg. 464:  NOTE 13, p. 75.
   The term _Godo_ or Goth, was applied at the commencement of the revolution exclusively to the Spaniards, who were entitled to it as well by descent, as by the devastations they committed in South America.  It was afterwards given indiscriminately to all Royalists; who, in turn, called the Patriots _Chocutos_, literally _croppies_; _caballo chocuto_ signifying a cropped horse.

Pg. 465:  NOTE 17, p. 90.
   Arepa is the Indian term for bread in general; it is used by the crioles exclusively for maiz cakes.  The grain of which these are made, after being pounded in a large wooden mortar by two women, who strike it alternately with _majaderos_, or heavy pestles, to loosen the husks, is boiled, and suffered to stand all night in the same water.  It is then bruised by hand, with a round stone, on a flat slab of granite, laid slanting to let the water run off; and is made into small cakes, which are baked on an earthen plate, without adding leaven or salt.  This is considered a very nourishing kind of bread, but is, of course, exceedingly insipid.

Pg. 468:  NOTE 26, p. 241.
   A _pulperia_, called also in Peru and Chile, _bodegon_, is a shop for the sale of groceries and liquors.  It must be distinguished from the Mexican _pulqueria_, which is used exclusively to designate houses that sell pulque, a fermented beverage made from a species of aloe.

Pg. 469:  NOTE 30, pg. 260.
   The word _canaca_ literally means _man_ in the language of the Sandwich islanders.  It is used by navigators to designate a native of those islands.
      NOTE 31, p. 261.
   The Mexican flag consists of three perpendicular stripes; red next the mast, white, and green.  In the centre compartment is a vulture, perched on a prickly-pear bush, holding a serpent in her talons.  This, according to tradition, was the first object that caught the attention of Cortez, at his landing on the coast of Mexico.
      NOTE 32, p. 280.
   Notwithstanding the name of _almendral_, which this suburb bears, not a single almond tree grows within leagues of it.
      NOTE 33, p. 341.
   The Chilenos cook charqui, both fresh and stale, in several different ways, in all of which it is very palateable.  The _charquican_ is a standing dish throughout the country, and is far prefereable to the celebrated Spanish _olla_.  The charqui, being cut into small pieces, is pounded between two stones, and picked as fine as oakum.  it is then put into a stew-pan, with butter, potatoes, red pepper, and in (Pg. 470--ed.) summer, green peas or _frijoles_, in winter, pieces of pumpkin.  These ingredients are all mashed together, enough of water being added to soften the vegetables.  The _valdiviana_ is made of charqui pounded as before, and rinsed in scalding water.  It is eaten with vinegar, pepper, and sliced onions.

 Pg. 470:  NOTE 36, p. 385.
   The name of the unfortunate Emperor of Mexico, is always spelled _Motezuma_ by the South Americans.  The Mexicans themselves, who must certainly be allowed to bethe best authority on this head, pronounce the name "_Moh-tenzuma_."


VOLUME TWO
Pg. 327:  NOTE 21, p. 71.
   A _tambo_ is an Indian caravanserai, built in many parts of South America, (more particularly in the Cordillera,) in which no shelter would otherwise be within a traveller's reach.  Each tambo is kept in repair by the neighbouring natives; and is provided, from time to time, with fuel, straw or rushes for beds, earthen ollas for cooking, and dried venison or vicuna's flesh.

Pg. 331:  NOTE 39, p. 236:
  _Chicha de pina_, cider made of pine-apples, a common beverage in many parts of South America.


VOLUME THREE
Pg. 343:  NOTE 12, p. 138.
   The belief in _duendes_, or fairies, is very prevalent throughout South America; particularly in Peru and Chile.
   (OED has 1924 for "duende"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT NEVER STOPS! (continued, of course)

   Just amazing.
   Every year, every month, every week, maybe every day in this great information age.  No one who writes for a newspaper can Google.  No one.
   Elementary school children can Google!  Newspaper writers can't figure it out?
   I never get credit or money--not even one free hot dog.  Ever.


(NEXIS)
Copyright 2003 Gannett Company, Inc.
USA TODAY
September 10, 2003, Wednesday, FINAL EDITION
SECTION: SPORTS; Pg. 2C
LENGTH: 153 words
HEADLINE: Long time since Cubs, White Sox have been in this position
BYLINE: Mike Dodd
(...)
 * The hot dog gets its name, legend has it, as New York newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan pens an illustration of a dachshund in a bun after attending a ballgame at the Polo Grounds.


(NEXIS)
Copyright 2003 Seattle Post-Intelligencer
THE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
September 10, 2003, Wednesday FINAL
SECTION: LIFE AND ARTS, Pg. E2

LENGTH: 672 words

HEADLINE: FRANKLY, YOU CAN'T LOSE WITH A RED HOT DOG

SOURCE: JOHN OWEN

BODY:  EVERYBODY HAS a helpful suggestion for the Mariners during this stretch drive to the World Series.

Actually, I have two of them.

Don't just stand there with the bat on your shoulder when the count is three balls and two strikes. Nobody believes umpires are infallible. Then why should any batter act that way on close pitches?

If occasionally swinging the bat on a 3-2 count doesn't improve the clutch hitting, then station a food vendor at every entrance to Safeco Field, frying hot dogs in giant skillets.

That last suggestion was passed along to me by the sport's greatest innovator, the late Bill Veeck. He recognized that, on average, teams will lose as many games as they win. The trick is to send the fans home happy, even after the losses.

He did it with energetic promotions and by selling the sizzle as well as the tube steak.

"Why did I put these guys with frying pans at all the entrances?" he asked. "You can't grill 40,000 hot dogs to order. But when the fans see and smell those wieners sputtering in the pans, they can't resist. They want to believe that's what they are eating up in the grandstand even though they really know better."

>From the sport's earliest days, baseball promoters have been battling image problems, in regard to hot dogs. During a cold spell at the Polo Grounds in New York, Harry Stevens wasn't selling any ice cream, so he ordered sausages and buns sent to the concession stands and vendors were instructed to yell, "Hot dachshund sausages, get 'em while they're hot." Thus the term "hot dog" was created.

A few years later, however, rumors spread that ballpark frankfurters actually contained dog meat. It didn't help that a sports cartoonist named Tad Dorgan began to draw sketches of wieners with faces, feet and tails.

So vendors were told to forget the dogs and to advertise their products by hollering, "Coney Islands...get your Red Hots."
(...)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 14 03:06:15 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:06:15 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <56BFCAB3.3407FD58.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.230615.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A noteworthy item in the latest batch of OED revisions is the following
citation now listed as the first use for the word "nerd":

a1950 A. KAZIN Jrnl. in Lifetime Burning in Every Moment (1996) II. 92, I
guess to her I am a nerd, a bookish noodle, not genially at the heart of
things.

Since Dr. Seuss' naming of one of his fictional animals as a "nerd"
occurred in a 1950 book, the Kazin usage most likely kills the theory that
the slang word derives from Dr. Seuss.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 14 03:40:29 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:40:29 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309132302590.26586-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.234029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Sep 13, 2003 at 11:06:15PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> A noteworthy item in the latest batch of OED revisions is the following
> citation now listed as the first use for the word "nerd":
>
> a1950 A. KAZIN Jrnl. in Lifetime Burning in Every Moment (1996) II. 92, I
> guess to her I am a nerd, a bookish noodle, not genially at the heart of
> things.
>
> Since Dr. Seuss' naming of one of his fictional animals as a "nerd"
> occurred in a 1950 book, the Kazin usage most likely kills the theory that
> the slang word derives from Dr. Seuss.

I'm afraid not. This cite should not have appeared, and will be
pulled at the next update.

This edition of Kazin's journals is clearly, on a close inspection,
a later re-editing of journals that he kept at the time; it does
not represent a verbatim transcript of contemporaneous writing.
There are a number of places where clear anachronisms, or later comments
on then-current events, appear in the text with nothing to indicate that
they are not original. Thus the trustworthiness of all of the material
is highly questionable. This cite should have been dated a1996, or
perhaps by HDAS as a1996...[ref. to a1950].

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 06:33:20 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:33:20 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
Message-ID: <SAT.13.SEP.2003.233320.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have looked in the AHD3 and 4, Oxford, and Italian and Korean
dictionaries. None of them confirm my use of pet-pet-pet. They all insist on
pet-petted-petted.

Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
and set-set-set.

Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
or just not noted in dictionaries?

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 07:18:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 03:18:27 EDT
Subject: Flypaper Strategy; Evil Killers;"Their" Period
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.031827.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest went down for maintenance on Saturday.  It could mean that it's
adding the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, or it could mean that ProQuest is just screwing up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FLYPAPER STRATEGY

   Andrew Sullivan's blog mentions this.  Here's the first Google Groups hit,
only about a month ago:

From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:iam%40myown.person+">Dana Dare</A> (<A HREF="mailto:iam%40myown.person">iam at myown.person</A>)
Subject: Re: A powerful explosion has rocked the Mariot hotel in Jakarta
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.bush">alt.politics.bush</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.gw-bush">alt.politics.gw-bush</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.politics.international">
alt.politics.international</A>
Date: 2003-08-07 07:16:06 PST

Freewheeling wrote:> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:29:20 -0700, Dana Dare <
iam at myown.person>> wrote:> > >>Please fill me in on how you believe I've got my hunches
at 180? from  >>what is actually happening.> > > Bill Kristol covers this
topic in a number of articles he wrote with> Kagan and Kaplan.  It may also be in
his most recent book, and he made> the point in a live conversation with
Charlie Rose a few months ago.> It makes sense if you understand the extent to
which Arabs disrespect> weakness.  Recall that UBL used references to Somalia and
the Black> Hawk Down episode in his recruitment speeches, as examples of the
fact> that America is a "paper tiger."  And it is a long standing principle>
in Bedouin strategy that you don't fight unless you are convinced you> have a
chance of victory (and some felt that you don't fight unless> victory is
certain), so Bedouin campaigns were usually a series of> strategic withdrawals until
conditions were favorable for an attack.> Which is precisely what Al Qaeda is
doing at the moment.  All of these> minor attacks around the globe are
designed to cover a strategic> withdrawal.  And they hope that we'll eventually
become complacent and> they can reconstitute.  Which was the same theory that
Hussein was> operating from.  It is folly to show weakness when dealing with an>
Arab military regime of warrior cult of any sort, because it inspires> them to
fight.  There are lots of angry people in the Middle East, but> the current
"guerilla war" in Iraq is extraordinarily anemic in> comparison to most guerilla
campaigns in history.  Plus, if there is> any place where it's to our
advantage to draw these forces into a> fight it's in Iraq.  We're much better off
fighting them there, which> is the logic behind Bush's taunt "Bring it on."  It's
sometimes called> the "flypaper strategy.">
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
EVIL KILLERS

   The NEW YORK POST 11 September 2003 front page headline:

September 11, 2003
Today, New York...
REMEMBERS
3,016 innocent lives
taken 2 years ago but
WON'T FORGET
Their evil killers

   Evil killers?  Is there a redundancy here?  Can killers ever be nice guys?
   Google has about 3,000 "evil killer" hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
WHO WEARS WHITE DURING THEIR PERIOD?

   This was said on a panty-liner tv commercial.
   Hey!  Use correct English!  It should be:

Who wears white during his or her period?


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 14 11:33:22 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:33:22 -0400
Subject: OED Antedates "Nerd"
In-Reply-To: <20030914034028.GA17944@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.073322.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I'm afraid not. This cite should not have appeared, and will be
> pulled at the next update.

OK, thanks for pointing this out, Jesse.  I guess one advantage of
continuous revision is that mistakes can be corrected far more quickly
than in the past.

For the record, let me mention that the Dr. Seuss theory of the origin of
"nerd" is still questionable, even without the Kazin citation, since
"nerd" appeared in _Newsweek_ in 1951, suggesting that it may have been
around before 1950 (the date of the Seuss character).

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Sep 14 13:34:58 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:34:58 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003101c37a8a$17956c90$6eb1fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.093458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is my usage; ergo, not nonstandard. (What the hell! I'm a
past-president of the American Dialect Society! How could I be guilty
of nonstandardness?)

dInIs

I have looked in the AHD3 and 4, Oxford, and Italian and Korean
dictionaries. None of them confirm my use of pet-pet-pet. They all insist on
pet-petted-petted.

Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
and set-set-set.

Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
or just not noted in dictionaries?

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 14:15:57 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:15:57 EDT
Subject: An invitation
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.101557.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a well-reasoned
refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRAugust03Fiske.htm">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRAugust03Fiske.htm</A>

If so, I would be pleased to publish it in The Vocabula Review.




Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 08:31:57 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:31:57 EDT
Subject: Digital Dictionaries of South Asia (Re: Choad/Chode)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.043157.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI:  Take a look at this, at Columbia University's site.  It will get
better.


U.S. Department of Education Grants $530K to Phase Two of the Digital
Dictionaries of South Asia Library Project (DDSA)

(NEW YORK, August 27, 2003) Columbia University Libraries, the University of
Chicago Library, and North Carolina State University have recently received
$530K in funding from the U.S. Department of Education, with the University of
Chicago as the leader.

The new three-year grant will be used for the second phase of the Digital
Dictionaries of South Asia (DDSA) project. The project will add at least ten
monolingual dictionaries for modern literary languages of South Asia to its web
site at <A HREF="http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/">http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/</A>. These additions will complement
the thirty-four bilingual dictionaries already being made available under the
project's first phase.

The DDSA was initiated by Columbia's South Asia Librarian and Director of
Area Studies Dr. David Magier, in collaboration with the University of Chicago.
It was developed under major Department of Education funding, as part of the
Digital South Asia Library (DSAL) project - a successful ten year
Columbia/Chicago effort to secure funding for free online access to full-text documents,
image and photo archives, journals indexes, statistics, maps, and other vital
resources for the study of South Asia. The DSAL is online at <A HREF="http://dsal.uchicago.edu/">
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/</A>. Through DSAL, students, scholars, teachers, business leaders, public
officials and citizens have been able to locate and utilize via the internet
materials concerning South Asia that are not otherwise accessible in the U.S.

In 2002, Magier and colleagues created the Center for South Asia Libraries,
an independent international non-profit corporation with offices in Chicago,
India and Nepal to centralize support for these projects. Magier works with the
offices and partners of CSAL in India to carry out the extensive data entry
for the dictionaries project, which has received publicity in the Indian
subcontinent because of the way it highlights many of the languages of the region and
makes their dictionaries more accessible. "The Digital Dictionaries project
has caught a lot of attention, because of the balance it strikes between the
interests of dictionary publishers, copyright holders, and the public - in the
West and in South Asia," says Magier. "By carrying out this work through CSAL,
and providing support for sister institutions in the Indian Subcontinent, we
demonstrate the value of international collaboration in tackling preservation
and access challenges that could not be addressed otherwise." The grant from
the Department of Education also enhances the likelihood that partner libraries
in the countries of South Asia will also attract support from governments and
foundations in the region.

Columbia University Libraries is one of the top ten academic library systems
in the nation, with 7.5 million volumes, over 50,000 serials, as well as
extensive collections of electronic resources, manuscripts, rare books, microforms
and other non-print formats.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 16:05:27 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:05:27 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003101c37a8a$17956c90$6eb1fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.120527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
>and set-set-set.
>
>Can anyone tell me if this use of pet is considered nonstandard/dialectical
>or just not noted in dictionaries?
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
~~~~~~~~~~
Non standard? How about: fret, fretted &c., jet, jetted; net, netted; ret,
retted;
vet, vetted; wet, wetted ?
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Sep 14 16:41:55 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:41:55 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bb8a1eb8743d@[35.12.19.185]>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.124155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
>and set-set-set.

What rule is that?

A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some have it as a
'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also "shit", "spit" maybe).

But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have vet his
report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?

"I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't approve of it.
(^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not called the "Web
of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:23:30 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:23:30 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030914123240.04c76460@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.102330.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The rule is just a general rule that says many monosyllabic verbs with a
short vowel do not inflect for tense. Rather than saying those verbs are
irregular, you just say it's a type X verb. So, yes there are many verbs
like vet, fit, gut, etc., that aren't of this type even though they also fit
the requirements.

Even if dictionaries don't like this non-inflection, though, it seems that
this rule can be applied to some verbs, anyway.

But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place

FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut. Talking
in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut 'em." I don't think I'd
say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 9:42 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Past tense of pet
>
>
> >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like
> >put-put-put and set-set-set.
>
> What rule is that?
>
> A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some
> have it as a 'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also
> "shit", "spit" maybe).
>
> But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have
> vet his report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?
>
> "I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't
> approve of it.
> (^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not
> called the "Web of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:51:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:51:19 EDT
Subject: Colorado Digitization Program (CO); Valley of the Shadow (VA)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.135119.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COLORADO DIGITIZATION PROGRAM
  
   The Colorado Digitization Program will include Historical 
Newspapers--1.640,000 pages up to 1923.  It's using the same software (which I like) as the 
BROOKLYN EAGLE, the British Library Online Newspaper Archive, and the Missouri 
Newspapers Project.
   This is useful to check if "I'm from Missouri-Show Me" really started with 
Colorado miners in 1896.
   Nothing seems to be up yet, but here's the press release:
  
http://www.cdpheritage.org/about/news/lsta2003_newspapers.html
CDP Receives Grant to Create Colorado's Historical Newspaper Collection

Denver, CO, June 9, 2003 ? The Colorado Digitization Program (CDP), Colorado 
State Library and Colorado Historical Society received a Library Services and 
Technology Act (LSTA) grant for $120,000 to begin the process of digitizing 
Colorado?s historic newspapers from 1859-1880. Initially forty-four newspapers 
representing more than 50,000 pages will be included in Colorado?s Historical 
Newspaper Collection. Through this project researchers, genealogists, students, 
teachers and those interested in Colorado history will be able to search for 
a wide range of topics, people and events as well as view full page images of 
these historic newspapers. ?This project will provide our students and 
educators?and anyone who loves Colorado history?with an unparalleled view of Colorado
?s past,? commented Nancy Bolt, Colorado State Librarian. The Colorado 
Historical Newspaper Collection will be available on the Internet through CDP?s web 
site (<A HREF="http://www.cdpheritage.org/">www.cdpheritage.org</A>) and the Colorado Virtual Library (<A HREF="http://www.aclin.org/">www.aclin.org</A>). ?
This project will allow scanning across all newspapers at one time, which is 
now not possible. With this project, faculty, researchers, and students will 
be able to do research efficiently, seeing history and social issues from new 
vantage points,? noted Nancy Allen, Dean of Libraries, University of Denver. 
This project will use Olive Software?s ActivePaper Archive? that is 
specifically designed to handle historic newspapers (<A HREF="http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com/">www.uk.olivesoftware.com</A>). 
  
Additional newspapers would be added to the Collection as funds are 
available. It is the intent of the project partners that Colorado?s Historical 
Newspaper Collection would eventually include papers through 1923, a total of 
1,640,000 pages. ?If we can provide easy access to the information about the people 
who made Colorado what it is today, genealogists and historians will be very 
pleased,? commented Rebecca Lintz, Librarian, Colorado Historical Society. The 
Collection is being created from the microfilm collection held by the Colorado 
Historical Society. 
  
The Colorado Digitization Program, established in 1998, provides access to 
digital content from all corners of the state ensuring public access to the rich 
cultural heritage resources in Colorado?s libraries, archives, historical 
societies, and museums via the Internet. The CDP provides assistance to the 
cultural heritage community through best practice guidelines, workshops, and by 
encouraging collaborative partnerships. More information about CDP along with 
access to the Heritage Colorado database is available online at <A HREF="http://www.cdpheritage.org%20/">
www.cdpheritage.org </A>or by e-mailing <A HREF="mailto:colodig at coalliance.org">colodig at coalliance.org</A>.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
VALLEY OF THE SHADOW
  
http://valley.vcdh.virginia.edu/
  or
http://www.vcdh.virginia.edu/research.html
  
   The Virginia Center for Digital History's "Valley of the Shadow" project 
has gotten a little better, but I still haven't gotten anything out of it.  It 
explores two communities (Augusta County, Virginia and Franklin County, 
Pennsylvania) before, during, and after the Civil War.  Included are digitized 
newspapers, letters, and diaries.
   A digital record of Dolley Madison will soon be added by VCDH.  She 
invented "ice cream," you know.  Or maybe it was the hamburger.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Sep 14 18:27:54 2003
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:27:54 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <002001c37ae4$ee55fa10$a952fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.142754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they appropriate
>to the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?

dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)




>The rule is just a general rule that says many monosyllabic verbs with a
>short vowel do not inflect for tense. Rather than saying those verbs are
>irregular, you just say it's a type X verb. So, yes there are many verbs
>like vet, fit, gut, etc., that aren't of this type even though they also fit
>the requirements.
>
>Even if dictionaries don't like this non-inflection, though, it seems that
>this rule can be applied to some verbs, anyway.
>
>But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
>and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>
>FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut. Talking
>in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut 'em." I don't think I'd
>say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson
>>  Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 9:42 AM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: Past tense of pet
>>
>>
>>  >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like
>>  >put-put-put and set-set-set.
>>
>>  What rule is that?
>>
>>  A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some
>>  have it as a 'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also
>>  "shit", "spit" maybe).
>>
>>  But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have
>>  vet his report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?
>>
>>  "I have pet the dog today" cannot be standard, since I don't
>>  approve of it.
>>  (^_^) It does occur repeatedly on the Web, but that's not
>>  called the "Web of grammatical errors" for nothing. (^_^)
>>
>>  -- Doug Wilson
>>


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Sep 14 18:58:31 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:58:31 -0700
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <a05210600bb8a63530a98@[35.12.25.144]>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.115831.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I slow my speech down, it doesn't sound so bad to say something like,
"I net the fish and gut 'em."

It might be an imitation of my dad (native West Virginian, long-time
Alaskan), but in any case, it sounds much better to my ear slow than in my
normal, faster dialect (native Seattleite).

It's possilbe that the effect could just be narrative present (using the
present for a narrative); I'm not sure.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 11:28 AM

> >What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they
> appropriate to
> >the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?

> dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)

> >FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut.
> >Talking in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut
> 'em." I don't
> >think I'd say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Sun Sep 14 20:11:29 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:11:29 -0700
Subject: An invitation
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.131129.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a
well-reasoned
> refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":
>
Why bother writing a refutation when one can just point to footnote 3
instead?

3. Lexicographers often try to justify the inclusion of solecisms like
disinterested (in the sense of uninterested) in their dictionaries by citing
examples from authors who have used these words solecistically. The obvious
response to this is that authors -- well known or not -- are not immune from
misusing and misspelling words and have forever done so. In the seventeenth
century, according to the OED (a dictionary we can still respect),
disinterested did have the meaning "without interest or concern," but for
the last three hundred years, the word has meant "impartial or without
bias."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 22:31:09 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:31:09 -0400
Subject: Hollywood (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.183109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Harvey Wilcox, Hollywood, 1888--441 Google hits
Harvey Wilcox, Hollywood, 1887--402 Google hits

   It's 1887.
   People ("journalists") write stories.  They get paid for these stories.
   No one checks?  One of the most famous of all American place names?  People repeat the same errors?
   This is of possible interest to Frank Abate, who's writing a book on American placenames.  Frank, are you still there?


(GOOGLE)
http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20030809/hollywood.html
Saturday, August 9th, 2003
How Hollywood USA got
its name
By MARTIN BYRNES
(...)
Back in the year 1888, Mrs Daeda Wilcox, wife of one Harvey Henderson Wilcox, overheard one woman telling another that her nearby home was called Hollywood. Harvey H Wilcox was a property speculator and builder, and he decided, on his wife's advice, that the housing estate he was planning for Beachwood Canyon should be called Hollywood Land. It was later he who, in 1923, erected the huge sign on the hillside reading 'Hollywood Land', letters 50 feet high and illuminated by 4,000 bulbs. In 1939 it was replaced and the word 'Land" was omitted. That sign is now a national monument, and all because George Hewston tried to grow apples, to help his tenants survive, in Adare a century and a half ago.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.southlandrealestate.com/HollywoodDemographicsfrm.htm
The community was laid out in the late 1880s, after a real estate developer named Harvey Wilcox registered his 120-acre citrus ranch as Hollywood on February 1st, 1887, and started selling subdivisions of the property.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.hollywoodland.org/
1888 - A bucolic hillside area  populated by citrus farmers is given the name "Hollywood" by Harvey Henderson  Wilcox and his wife, Daeida, as part of a residential development. It is Daeida  who selects the name after she meets a lady on a train whose summer home is  called Hollywood.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Death of Ex-secretary Prelilng
              Los Angeles Times (1881-1886).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 21, 1885.                   p. 0_1 (1 page):
   RICHMOND, Va., May 20.--The formal opening of the Confederate Soldiers' Home, near this city, took place to-day.  From this home the veterans and military proceeded to Hollywood Cemetery and participated in the annual decoration of the graves of Confederates, to-day being Decoration Day.

2.
      Other 1 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 7, 1886.                   p. 1 (1 page):
   Monroe was also buried in New York, but by act of the Virginia Legislature his remains were removed to Hollywood Cemetery, Richmond.

3.
      Classified Ad 1 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 8, 1887.                   p. 1 (1 page):
STRAYED OR STOLEN--A SPAN OF horses, one black mare with colt, one sorrel horse; both had halters on when taken; liberal reward for delivery of said horses to H. H. WILCOX, 34 N. Spring, or to Hollywood Ranch, near Cahuenga Pass.

4.
      Display Ad 7 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 25, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   Look out for Hollywood, at Cahuenga Pass, on Sunset boulevard, 100 feet wide, 6 miles long;...
   Several wealthy gentlemen have already decided to make their homes at Hollywood in the near future.  Drive out there and see, and then wait until it is on the market, then make your home there.  (...)
H. H. WILCOX & CO., 34 North Spring Street.

5.
      Display Ad 5 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 26, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page)

6.
      Display Ad 6 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 27, 1887.                   p. 7 (1 page)

7.
      Display Ad 9 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1887.                   p. 10 (1 page)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep 14 22:48:57 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:48:57 -0400
Subject: Hollywood (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.184857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        There were, of course, other Hollywoods before the famous one in California.  From an 1844 Louisiana case, a reference to a Hollywood Plantation in Louisiana:

        >>They did reside on his father's plantation some two, three, or four years; afterwards at Hollywood, the residence of John Routh, on Lake St. Joseph, until after the completion of their town house, after which their time was measurably divided between the two places.<<

Routh v. Routh, 9 Rob. 224, 41 Am.Dec. 326 (La. 1844).  "Hollywood" is also a surname.


John Baker


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Sep 15 00:07:19 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:07:19 -0500
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <200309141647.AMV58350@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.190719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:41 PM 9/14/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yet pet follows the standard short vowel, monosyllabic rule like put-put-put
> >and set-set-set.
>
>What rule is that?
>
>A few verbs have this paradigm: "put", "set", "let". Some have it as a
>'standard' alternative: "fit", "wet" (also "shit", "spit" maybe).
>
>But: "I have net several fish, and I have gut them"? "I have vet his
>report, and he has dot all his 'i's"?

Following the analyses of similar examples in Bybee's recent book
'Phonology and Language Use' I would check to see the frequency with which
each verb occurs.  Her theory is that frequent irregular verbs are likely
to remain irregular, and, if frequent enough, attract additional members to
the 'irregular club', but infrequent ones are likely to be
regularized.  The fact that 'put, set, let, bet' have zero past/pptl.
inflections probably gives enough strength to the paradigm to make it very
slightly productive, thus permitting 'pet' to join in.  I think she
actually discusses monosyllabic verbs with -t endings.

On a personal level, however, I must admit I don't like 'This morning I pet
the dog'.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology

Wayne State University
Department of English,
Wayne State University,
Detroit, MI, 48202
Home:
862 University Place
Grosse Pointe, MI, 48230, USA.

Home telephone:  (313) 417-8406
Linguistics:  (313) 577-8621
C&IT:  (313) 577-1259


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 14 23:25:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:25:50 -0400
Subject: Webidence (2000)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.192550.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But pet seems to me to go both ways, like knit...So far, two votes against
and one for, and a whole bunch of Webidence for as well...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Webidence" is not on Wordspy.com.  There isn't a trademark for it, and I didn't see it on Nexis.  Unfortunately, it wasn't coined here today.
   There are 77 Google hits, and 215 Google Groups hits.

(GOOGLE GROUPS)(The subject line is in Russian--ed.)
From: Alexander Chelnokov (Alexander.Chelnokov at f96.n5080.z2.fidonet.org)
Subject:
Newsgroups: fido7.su.medic
Date: 2000-09-05 07:11:01 PST
(...)
Bruce Slater, from the United States, says that "Webidence is scientific (type
1) and pseudo-scientific (type 2) medical advice and opinion posted on a
website. The marker . . . is `sticky eyeballs,' the measuring device is the web
hit counter, and the unit is the unique hit and repeat visit count.
Unfortunately, no reputable authority exists for separating types 1 and 2."
(...)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep 15 03:32:50 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:32:50 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <000801c3793e$603ba240$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.233250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J.Green:

>But obscenities, for all that Hobson-Jobson ... lists _banchut_ ... seem
>to have stayed where they were.

But "banchoot" traveled to Blighty, and mutated into "barnshoot", used as a
milder epithet by the Feringhee, according to Partridge (who apparently did
not know the exact Hindi meaning) and others. [No relation to "choad" IMHO,
and no significant presence in the US, AFAIK.]

>So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.

Well, Navajo's hard for me to deal with, but I looked up "penis" in the big
Young and Morgan Navajo book: several words are listed but nothing like
"chodis". After a little rumination, though, I wonder whether this is a
Navajo slang adoption from Spanish, where "chorizo" = "sausage" is used as
slang for "penis" .... Navajo has no "r", apparently. [Which has no bearing
at all on whether it's related to "choad" AFAIK..]

We blue-collar Appalachians don't often meet Navajo speakers or experts in
Navajo language: perhaps one of the academic savants could check this out?

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 15 04:14:51 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:14:51 -0400
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030914231457.02baabe0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.001451.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:32 PM -0400 9/14/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>>So, fwiw, I shall stick with Navajo and _chodis_.
>
>Well, Navajo's hard for me to deal with, but I looked up "penis" in the big
>Young and Morgan Navajo book: several words are listed but nothing like
>"chodis". After a little rumination, though, I wonder whether this is a
>Navajo slang adoption from Spanish, where "chorizo" = "sausage" is used as
>slang for "penis" .... Navajo has no "r", apparently. [Which has no bearing
>at all on whether it's related to "choad" AFAIK..]
>
FWIW, I knew someone whose name was Enrique but was called "Chori"
supposedly because of his fondness for sausage.  No secondary taboo
meaning to affect this as far as I know, but this was L.A., pretty
far from Navajo country.  And as Doug is alluding to, flap [r]s and
stop [d]s are fairly close.

Larry


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Sep 15 05:14:22 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:14:22 -0700
Subject: Webidence (2000)
In-Reply-To: <57CACD81.54AECFD7.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.221422.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Honyaku, it's used quite a bit to just mean evidence from the Web...

The oldest hit I find is 13 April 1998, used by Brian Chandler. Although he
might not have been the first person to use it, I believe he coined it, at
least independently:

http://cgi.monjunet.ne.jp/PT/honyaku/bin/hksrch.dll?Q=webidence&D=57394&I=1

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 4:26 PM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>    "Webidence" is not on Wordspy.com.  There isn't a
> trademark for it, and I didn't see it on Nexis.
> Unfortunately, it wasn't coined here today.
>    There are 77 Google hits, and 215 Google Groups hits.
>
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)(The subject line is in Russian--ed.)
> From: Alexander Chelnokov
> (Alexander.Chelnokov at f96.n5080.z2.fidonet.org)
> Subject:
> Newsgroups: fido7.su.medic
> Date: 2000-09-05 07:11:01 PST


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 06:05:05 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:05:05 EDT
Subject: "Big Apple" 1988 bet paid off now in 2003 (Cohen & Popik not
 mentioned)
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.020505.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just amazing.  Just amazing.  You can't invent humiliation like this.
   These two articles must be cited in full.  I'll get to my West Indian food 
post in a little bit, and then it's off to a brief sleep before another 
brutal week of nonstop work at the McDonald's for lawyers.  I'm trying to clear 
$20,000 this year (with no benefits).
   I'll send a copy to the Windy CIty gang (Chicago Public Library, Newberry 
Library) just to illustrate that Chicago is not the only one to make mistakes.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE article no. 1
  
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/columnists/jeff_elder/6537368.htm
    Monday, Sep 15, 2003    
Jeff Elder          
    Posted on Fri, Aug. 15, 2003 THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER 
GLAD YOU ASKED
Why is NYC called `The Big Apple'?
JEFF ELDER  
Q. How did New York City get the nickname "The Big Apple?" -- Diane Sutton, 
Lincolnton 
It's a good question, Diane, about a great city that's once again struggling 
through a dark moment.
  
That's what makes it "The Big Apple." New York is tough and resilient enough 
to fight through hard times and remain glamorous, legendary, incomparable.
  
During the massive blackouts of 1965 and 1977 there was fear in the streets, 
but New Yorkers reached out to help each other. We saw that same heroism pull 
the city through the pain of Sept. 11.
  
We know New York and the other cities hit by Thursday's blackouts will make 
it through this frightening episode with courage.
  
So this column is for "The Big Apple."
  
According to the New York Historical Society, historians have most often 
traced "The Big Apple" nickname to jockeys, who used the term in reference to the 
city's horse racing scene. An apple was a prize for the horses. A win in the 
big city of New York was a big apple indeed for the jockeys.
  
In the 1930s, the nickname surfaced among black musicians, who regarded New 
York as the ultimate place to perform. There were many apples on the tree, it 
was said, but New York was the big apple. There was even a jazz club in Harlem 
by that name.
  
And some say "The Big Apple" can be traced directly to French immigrant 
Evelyn Claudine de Saint-?vremond, who ran a legendary and glamorous house of ill 
repute.
  
New Yorkers anglicized Mademoiselle Evelyn's first name. She became Eve and 
her brothel was a garden filled with temptations. There are many quotations 
about this place that use the apple as a metaphor.
  
So which story is correct? Experts say there's probably a little truth in all 
of them. New York, after all, is a big beautiful city that never sleeps. 
(Especially, at Mademoiselle Evelyn's house.)
  
By the '50s and '60s "The Big Apple" had fallen out of popular use. But in 
the early '70s, the Convention and Visitors Bureau re-introduced it.
  
So what about `The Big Easy'?
Well, certain things do seem to happen more easily in N'Orleans. But 
historians trace the nickname to a turn-of-the-century jazz club called The Big Easy 
Hall.In 1970, newspaper reporter James Conaway wrote a crime novel set in New 
Orleans called "The Big Easy," and in 1987 the steamy movie with Dennis Quaid 
and Ellen Barkin took the same name.
 
Much of the credit for the nickname is given to newspaper columnist Betty 
Guillaud, who popularized the phrase in the 1970s -- using it to contrast New 
Orleans' laid-back style to that of The Big Apple's.
  
    

   EXPERTS SAY THERE'S PROBABLY A LITTLE TRUTH IN ALL OF THEM?  The "whore 
story" was acknowledged as a hoax!
   He's wrong about "the Big Easy," too.
   The New-York Historical Society tells them this?  The same NYHS that has 
Cohen-Popik donated material?  The same N-YHS that won't send me a style sheet 
(I've waited months) so I can write an article?
   Once again, my name isn't mentioned, and I wasn't even contacted.  I felt 
pretty bad when I saw this just now, until I'd see this and feel even 
worse......
    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE no. 2
  
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2003/08/28/news/local/6627543.htm
    Posted on Wed, Aug. 27, 2003  THE STATE 
Columbia not at core of New York City label
'Big Apple' applied to New York before dance came about
By JEFF WILKINSON
Staff Writer

Sorry to break it to you Columbia, but the Big Apple dance did NOT give New 
York City its nickname.
  
Some South Carolina peaches are headed north to Manhattan, courtesy of former 
Columbia Mayor Patton Adams.
  
In 1988, Adams bet then-New York Mayor Ed Koch that the dance was the source.
  
The debate raged in The New York Times and other national media. It even made 
David Letterman and Dear Abby.
  
At the time, Koch couldn't prove otherwise and sent Adams some New York 
apples as a gift.
  
It's Adams' turn to pay up.
  
A search by The State of records at the New York Public Library shows the 
nickname was used in jazz, horse racing and the movies a decade before the swing 
dance was invented
  
In fact, Columbia's Big Apple club might have taken its name from the same 
jazz-age sources.
  
When briefed Tuesday, Adams cheerfully conceded the bet.
  
But he said he believes the Big Apple dance helped cement the nickname and 
make its use more widespread. "It gave more substance to the nickname than it 
had in the past," he said.
  
Adams, who served from 1986 to 1990, said he made the bet to generate some 
publicity for Columbia tourism."
  
It worked. And Mayor Koch and I had a lot of laughs over the issue."  

Koch, contacted at his law office, said he knew all along the term came from 
jazz, but couldn't prove it at the time."
  
Harlem was known as the Big Apple as the center of jazz and it spread," Koch 
said.
  
The New York Convention & Visitors Bureau formalized the "Big Apple" nickname 
for the city in a 1971 publicity campaign.
  
Adams originally bet 10 pounds of South Carolina mustard-based barbecue to 
Koch's New York cheese pizza.
  
But Koch said South Carolina peaches, which he first tasted during his World 
War II basic training at Camp Croft near Spartanburg, would do just fine.
  
"We would crawl through those peach orchards and I would reach up and steal 
the biggest. South Carolina peaches are the best."
  
Koch said six peaches would satisfy the bet.
  
Since the debate raged in 1988, The New York Times archives have been 
computerized. Research now is much easier.
  
The first reference is in a glossary of Hollywood movie-making terms titled 
"Slang of Film Men," published in The New York Times on March 11, 1928. The 
dance was invented in 1936.
  
Horse-racing reports from the 1920s and 1930s also call the city the Big 
Apple because its tracks paid the highest purses.
  
And jazz musicians called playing clubs on the road "picking apples." They 
looked forward to returning to "the big apple," New York, were they were paid 
more and enjoyed more prestige.
  
Although the Big Apple was in use as New York's nickname before the dance was 
invented, the exact source of the term -- whether jazz, horse racing or 
filmmaking -- is still a mystery."
  
It's like a lot of things," said John Rathe, a research librarian at the New 
York Public Library. "Was there an Uncle Sam? Did Betsy Ross sew the first 
American flag? Until somebody invents a time machine, we're not going to find 
out."
  
Rathe noted that in the jazz and horse-racing world, the term indicated "the 
place to be."
  
So, in all likelihood, Columbia nightclub owner Frank "Fat Sam" Boyd -- being 
hip to things jazz -- might have named his joint the Big Apple for that very 
reason."
  
It's logical," Rathe said.Reach Wilkinson at (803) 771-8495 or <A HREF="mailto:jwilkinson at thestate.com">
jwilkinson at thestate.com</A>.


  
    This is insane.  I'm losing my mind.  Andy Smith begs me to get therapy.
    In 1991, Gerald Cohen published a Big Apple BOOK.  I then added to it 
with important discoveries, published in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  Track writer 
John J. Fitz Gerald admitted he'd heard "Big Apple" from New Orleans stable 
hands, and I even pinpointed the probable January 1920 date, using two sources.  
Our work is summarized in Cohen's entry to the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY 
(1995).
   I gave all this in 1992 to then-Mayor David Dinkins, which began the 
process of the work being rejected all over town.
   Finally, in 1997, just as both of my parents would die, I dedicated "Big 
Apple Corner."  It was signed into law by Mayor Rudy Giuliani.  If you Google 
"Big Apple" and "nickname," it's hit number three.  NO ONE CAN GOOGLE?
   Fred Shapiro found that 1928 NEW YORK TIMES citation over ten years ago.  
It was published in AMERICAN SPEECH, a journal of this American Dialect 
Society.  The TIMES digitization hadn't added anything we didn't already know over a 
decade ag
   I gave Ed Koch my material years ago.  He saw it and responded to it.  (He 
couldn't make the 1997 dedication.  Don't worry--no one did.)  Now: "he knew 
all along the term came from jazz"?
   Gersh Kuntzman wrote a "Big Apple" article for the 1997 NEW YORK POST.  
Patton Adams was quoted in it.  Adams remembers none of it?
    But the most infuriating thing are the comments by John Rathe, a research 
librarian at the New York Public Library.  Not only did I solve this thing at 
the New York Public Library, but--(wipes brow, takes a breath, go)--I'M BARRY 
POPIK!  No one knows me?  No NYPL librarian has ever heard of me?  BARRY 
POPIK!  You know, the guy who's been going there for over ten years?  Friend of 
90-year-old David Shulman?  Barry Popik?  Lives in New York?  Also did research 
work on the Windy CIty, the Great White Way, New York's Finest, New York's 
Bravest, the New York Yankees, the Bronx Bombers, the Subway Series, Audrey 
Munson ("Miss Manhattan"), the hot dog, the gyro, the smoothie, chicken a la king, 
the hero, the hoagie...
   Barry Popik!  BARRY POPIK!
   I'm Barry Popik!
   I knew this would happen, so I took the incredible trouble of making sure 
this was a law!  No one remembers?  No one knows?  No one can Google and find 
out?
   What to do?  Run to the doorman?  I'm Barry Popik, right?  I live here, 
don't I?  I've lived here for a long time, haven't I?  This duplicate street 
sign, it says "BIG APPLE CORNER," doesn't it?
    See that store over there, at East 57th and Third?  It used to be a WIZ.  
But before that, it was a CRAZY EDDIE.  And he had this motto, "Crazy Eddie, 
his prices are insaaaane!"  Remember?  And in the 1970s, along with the Big 
Apple print ad campaign, there was a slogan that said, "New York.  You have to 
be a little crazy to live here."  
   And what would I sing?  Remember?  A little song by Patsy Cline, from just 
at the time I was born?  Remember?  Remember?
   "Crazy..." 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 06:53:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:53:23 EDT
Subject: "Buffy" slang in weekend Financial Times
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.025323.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.image.ft.com/adimages/rich-FTB/GolfStandard_andy_period.swf
    
FT WEEKEND MAGAZINE - THE ARTS: Bite me, professor  
By Ian Shuttleworth
Financial Times; Sep 13, 2003

    
It's one of the ultimate accolades for a writer with a genuine interest in 
words: being cited in a dictionary - especially one published by the Oxford 
University Press - as an example of first use of a particular term in a dictionary 
entry. This summer I found myself cited not once but seven times. The glory!

Except that my citations aren't in the Oxford English Dictionary or any of 
its authoritative spin-offs, but in a tome entitled Slayer Slang: a Buffy the 
Vampire Slayer Lexicon (OUP, ?12.99). There I am, acknowledged as a pioneer in 
the use of terms such as "five-by- five" (adj.: satisfied, good), "vamped" 
(adj.: turned into a vampire), and "suckage" (across which it is perhaps best to 
draw a veil).

Yet this is no youth-culture bandwagon publication. Slayer Slang's author, 
Michael Adams, is chair of the English department at a liberal arts college in 
Pennsylvania; his glossary of terms from the TV series and its various official 
and unofficial offshoots is not only compiled in conventional scholarly 
style, but is prefaced by several chapters on the forms and evolutions of slang, 
and grew out of an essay first published in the respected linguistic periodical 
Verbatim.
(...)
    
  
(The Financial Times: right on the money--ed.)


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Sep 15 07:39:42 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:39:42 +0100
Subject: Choad/Chode--origin?
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.083942.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1.Navajo.

If only I could recall my source. But I can't, and it would appear that I
may have been misled, and that the best course is the mark chode/choad 'ety.
unknown'. So be it.

2. Partridge and banchut

Partridge cites the term as 'early C20', which he defines as 1900-30. He
quotes Orwell in _Down and Out in Paris and London_ as his single source
(other of course than Hobson-Jobson, pub. 1886). Orwell was a veteran of the
colonial East (Burma). I am happy to accept that such veterans would
certainly have known the word, and indeed occasionally used banchut 'back
home', but as Partridge's dating seems to indicate, not for very long.
Orwell, other than a small list of tramping slang, also in _Down and Out . .
._ did not claim to be a slang expert, and while he may have encountered the
term, I would still maintain that it was restricted to ex-pats. I have two
post Hobson Jobson cites: one from 1905, and one 1940, both in 'Raj'
contexts. This is not in any way to say that others do not exist, but I
remain unconvinced that the word is linked to chode/choad.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 15 07:52:26 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:52:26 EDT
Subject: Caribbean cookbooks article (1998)
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.035226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For the past few years, I've been reading every cookbook, every food
periodical, every menu, every travel guidebook and handbook (for every country in
the world, which I then travel to), and every computer database in the New York
Public Library.  No one knows who I am.
   The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995) is behind every NYPL librarian.
No one knows how to look there.  Been around for eight years.
   Anyway...


NEW WEST INDIAN GUIDE/NIEUWE WEST-INDISCHE GIDS
vol. 72 no. 1 & 2 (1998): 77-95

B. W. HIGMAN

COOKBOOKS AND CARIBBEAN CULTURAL IDENTITY:
AN ENGLISH-LANGUAGE HORS D'OEUVRE


   This is an excellent article, from a periodical available in the NYU Bobst
Library stacks.  I'll be in Trinidad & Guyana for two weeks in November,
probably just when the ProQuest CHICAGO TRIBUNE will come out ("in late August").

Pg. 79:  The earliest known English-language cookbook published in the
Caribbean is Caroline Sullivan's _Jamaica Cookery Book_ of 1893.  A trickle followed
down to the 1960s, and then there was an explosion in output that continues
to the present.  Two questions stand out.  Why did publication begin so late,
and why has the cookbook become so common in the last twenty years?

   Good questions.  I'll try to use the JAMAICA GLEANER, but I need a
Trinidad newspaper as well, and just about anything I can get my hands on.  I'll
possibly make a Library of Congress visit next week.  Suggestions?
   Again, the cuisine is now all over New York City.

Pg. 79:  For example, the fifth edition of _The Art of Cookery_ by Hannah
Glasse, published in 1755, contained elaborate instructions on how "To dress a
turtle the West Indian way."  Glasse noted that "In the West Indies they
generally souse the fins, and eat them cold, omit the liver, and only send to the
table the callepy, and soop" (Glasse, 1775:67).

Pg. 79:  Both English and North American cookbooks occasionally referred to
the Caribbean, in the eighteenth century, as in "West-India pepper pot" (soup)
and directions how to "caveach" fish "as practised in the West Indies" (Briggs
1792: 35; Hooker 1984:58).

Pg. 82:  No new cookbooks have been identified for the 1930s.

   A whole decade.  Not one for the entire region.  Just incredible.

Pg. 87 (closing comment--ed.):  Food, therefore, remains a problematic symbil
of Caribbean identity.  The cookbook-writers of recent times have not been
completely successful in creating a single account of the Caribbean past or a
single, unitary definition of Caribbean cuisine or culture.  In their efforts to
achieve this objective, they have however fixed Caribbean cuisine in a
traditional/nostalgic (Pg. 88--ed.) mould, locating it in times past and places
lost.  The cuisine commonly becomes something to be preserved rather than
developed, an attitude paralleling the fixing of the social memory in the cookbook's
text.

   Those comments are now dated.  We've had a lot more cookbooks since that
was written just a few years ago.  A nice bibliography of all the cookbooks
(119 from 1890-1997) is given.  The 1939 book by the Browns that I recently
mentioned here--which includes this region in its title--is not listed.


From regina.mcmahon at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Sep 15 09:41:57 2003
From: regina.mcmahon at MINDSPRING.COM (Regina)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:41:57 -0400
Subject: Fw: agita /   'heartburn'
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.054157.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Reading your comment on "heartburn,"  I made a comment to my proofreader
 about "agita."   I remember hearing the word in the '60s, as did she. But
MW
 gives date of 1980s.  Yes, we are both in NYC.  Manhattan.  Chelsea.

 ________________________________________________________________________
> r.
>
> yeah, agree.
> i thought that when i read it.
> and same for me, i learned it from italians.
>
> t.
>
>
> ________________________ . . . .
> Regina said:
>
>
> I must disagree with the dating of it.
>
> I remember hearing the word since I was a kid.
>
> Italians I knew used it.
>
> ________________________________________________________
>
> From MW:
>
>       agita \AJ-uh-tuh\ noun
>
>       : a feeling of agitation or anxiety
>
>       Example sentence:
>       The prosecuting attorney's aggressive cross-examination seemed to
give
> the defendant agita.
>
>       Did you know?
>       Judging by its spelling and meaning, you might think that "agita" is
> simply a shortened version of "agitation," but that's not the case. Both
> "agitation" and the verb "agitate" derive from the Latin "agere" ("to
> drive"). "Agita," which first appeared in English in the early 1980s,
comes
> from a dialectical pronunciation of the Italian "acido," meaning
"heartburn"
> or "acid," which derives from the Latin "acidus." For a while its usage in
> American English was limited to New York City and surrounding regions, but
> the word became more widespread in the mid-90s.
>       ______________________________________
>
>
> this was merriam-webster's word of the day
> just the other day. wow. cool.
>
> t.
> ________________________ . . . .
>
> Regina said:
>
> of course, they could have just said "agita."
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoffrey Nunberg" <nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: 'heartburn'
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Geoffrey Nunberg <nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> > Subject:      'heartburn'
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > A recent article in the NY Times had a use of "heartburn" that
> > brought me up short:
> >
> > Major Stephan, who is looking for work after taking a furlough from a
> > commercial airliner, said he did not understand why some troops in
> > Iraq were complaining. "I have real heartburn about the people you
> > see on television griping about how they're stuck over there". . .
> > (NY Times, 9/3/03)
> >
> > I had always thought that 'hearburn' in its extended sense referred
> > to a carking anxiety, as in:
> >
> > "You're compressing a two-year campaign cycle into two months, with
> > all of the heartburn and anxiety that entails," said Mark Bogetich.
> > (LA Times, 8/30/03).
> >
> > But the use to mean "outrage or anger" is well attested,  as e.g. in:
> >
> > Cable's forced diet of programming is giving viewers heartburn. The
> > average bill now tops $ 40 a month, up 50% since 1996... (USA TODAY,
> > 8/26/03)
> >
> > For years, the Hormel Foods Corp. has watched as the name of its
> > famous and popular product also has come to mean junk e-mail, a
> > source of heartburn and anger for computer users everywhere. (Wash
> > Post 7/1/03)
> >
> > And actually the OED gives  "Rankling jealousy, discontent, or enmity."
> >
> > I wonder how other people understand this word.
> >
> > Geoff Nunberg
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Sep 15 11:30:10 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:10 -0400
Subject: Past tense of pet
In-Reply-To: <003401c37af2$3190bfb0$a952fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.073010.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Fascinating. Our ears are wonderful (well, it's actually our brains, but...).

Thanks.

dInIs



>When I slow my speech down, it doesn't sound so bad to say something like,
>"I net the fish and gut 'em."
>
>It might be an imitation of my dad (native West Virginian, long-time
>Alaskan), but in any case, it sounds much better to my ear slow than in my
>normal, faster dialect (native Seattleite).
>
>It's possilbe that the effect could just be narrative present (using the
>present for a narrative); I'm not sure.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
>>  Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 11:28 AM
>
>>  >What are examples opf "slower accents" (and why are they
>>  appropriate to
>>  >the plain preterite or patricipial forms of "net" and "gut"?
>
>>  dInIs (speaker of a quick accent)
>
>>  >FWIW, I wonder if there are people who say things like net and gut.
>>  >Talking in a slower accent, "He net the fish and then gut
>>  'em." I don't
>>  >think I'd say it, but it doesn't sound too bad...

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Mon Sep 15 02:31:52 2003
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:31:52 -0500
Subject: An invitation
In-Reply-To: <179.1f918a97.2c95d21d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.SEP.2003.213152.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 9/14/2003 09:15 AM, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote the following:

>Is anyone on this list interested in, and capable of, writing a well-reasoned
>refutation of "The Decline of the Dictionary":

 From the article in question:

>It's quite true: people are increasingly monosyllabic; after all, many
>people today prefer dis (included in the Collegiate tenth and eleventh) to
>disparage or disrespect or insult.

Zipf!

Monosyllabically yours,
Scott


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Sep 15 21:10:03 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:10:03 -0400
Subject: changes have undergone?
Message-ID: <MON.15.SEP.2003.171003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the homepage of the new "College of Education, Health, and Human
Sciences" at the U. of TN:

"Discover changes that have undergone with the new college merger."
(http://cehhs.utk.edu/)

This is transitive -> intransitive, I suppose. This is the first time I
have seen this construction.

Bethany


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Sep 16 10:14:51 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael B Quinion)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:14:51 +0100
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.111451.0100.>

Several copies of an intriguing message have been forwarded to
me recently; interestingly, no two were exactly the same. A
Google search shows it suddenly started to appear in groups on
12 September, with 159 copies being posted that day alone. It
has since hit the wider Web, with about 560 different examples
already catalogued. One version is:

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".

This is intriguingly self-referentially right, in that it's
surprisingly easy to read. I presume that the reference to the
research is spurious, but if anybody has any background on its
provenance or subject matter, I'd be interested to hear.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 16 15:04:20 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:04:20 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <3F66F0AB.15533.A08216@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.110420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:14 AM +0100 9/16/03, Michael B Quinion wrote:
>Several copies of an intriguing message have been forwarded to
>me recently; interestingly, no two were exactly the same. A
>Google search shows it suddenly started to appear in groups on
>12 September, with 159 copies being posted that day alone. It
>has since hit the wider Web, with about 560 different examples
>already catalogued. One version is:

That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?  Note also
that the conclusion from the paragraph must be closer to the
proposition that letter scrambling doesn't wipe out interpretation
for four-and-more-letter words.  I suppose "hte" wouldn't be
impossible to "correct" in context either, but it does help that none
of the two- and three-letter words are scrambled below.

larry

>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".
>
>This is intriguingly self-referentially right, in that it's
>surprisingly easy to read. I presume that the reference to the
>research is spurious, but if anybody has any background on its
>provenance or subject matter, I'd be interested to hear.
>
>--
>Michael Quinion
>Editor, World Wide Words
>E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
>Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 16 15:15:18 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:15:18 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.111518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Ah, but you cannot scramble a 2- or 3-letter word without changing the first or last letter, which the message describes as important.

        There are some scrambling mistakes, but I don't know that they mean the message was written by a non-native.  Unscrambled, the message includes "researchch," "importent," "letter" (should be "letters"), and "total" (left unscrambled).

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?

That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?  Note also
that the conclusion from the paragraph must be closer to the
proposition that letter scrambling doesn't wipe out interpretation
for four-and-more-letter words.  I suppose "hte" wouldn't be
impossible to "correct" in context either, but it does help that none
of the two- and three-letter words are scrambled below.

larry

>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Sep 16 15:29:08 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:29:08 -0700
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <3F66F0AB.15533.A08216@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.082908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The version I received on the Outil list also included the following:
---------
The matter is actually more complicated and subtle.  It has
to do with the entropy of language.  Even low-order models
of English text yield entropy values of 3 bits per letter.
Higher-order models that account for context demonstrate the enormous
redundancy in human languages.

The ability to extract meaning from high-entropy text and speech is
apparently hard-wired into the human brain, in the form of associative
memory.  Did some graduate research on it.

Oh, effective on pure speech signals, too ... otherwise cell phones would
never work ... the bit rate on them is much, much slower than what is
required for even an approximate representation of the original voice.
-------
Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael B Quinion
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 September 2003 3:15 AM
>
> "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it
> deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the
> olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at
> the rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can
> sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid
> deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep 16 15:45:24 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:45:24 -0700
Subject: Spelling matters?
In-Reply-To: <200309161516.h8GFG4x9232516@pop2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.084524.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote in part:

>That's the version I've seen, at least the beginning, which made me
>wonder if this was penned by a non-native speaker/writer.  Or is "a
>research" possible in British (or other non-U.S.) English?

The version posted to the Latinteach list was significantly
different; it cited "a sutdy" rather than "a rscheearch," and its
location was "an elgnsih unviesitry."

My assumption about the spelling errors was that the writers didn't
put the original form before their eyes, but simply scrambled as they
typed, using their memory of the correct letters a bit carelessly.
Perhaps the "a rscheearch" was an attempt to make an original "a
sutdy" more challenging, and the reviser neglected to remove the
article?

Note that the passages aren't nearly as difficult as they might be.
Compare for example the beginning of the passage posted to Latinteach:

Acocdrnig to an elgnsih unviesitry sutdy the oredr of letetrs in a wrod
dosen't mttaer, the olny thnig thta's iopmrantt ...

to this:

Airndcocg ot na elsingh ustveiriny sduty the oedrr of lertets in a
wrod dnseot mtaetr, the olny tinhg tthas itornmpat ...

It's still comprehensible, but it's not as easy (for me at least) to
read fluently.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Sep 16 16:40:24 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:40:24 -0500
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.114024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Spelling doesn't matter? Try reversing the -ie- of the German word
for "to shoot".

Gerald Cohen


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 16 17:41:18 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:41:18 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
In-Reply-To: <200309161504.h8GF4Qo09726@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.134118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several years Barry Popik undertook magnificent research into the origins
of "Murphy's Law."  He travelled around the country, looked at key
sources, and was unable to find any documentation of the "Law" earlier
than 1955.  His research was so extensive that he was able to suggest that
the standard account of the "Law" being coined at Edwards Air Force Base
in 1949 was problematic since the supposed 1949 coinage seemed to have
left no trace in sources where one would have thought there would be a
trace.

I have no "smoking gun" to offer proving the standard account.  However, I
have just spent a half hour talking on the phone to George Nichols, the
project manager who, according to the standard account, "developed the
maxim from a remark made by a colleague, Captain E. Murphy" (Concise
Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs).  The salient points of the conversation
are as follows:

1. Nichols, although in his early 80s, was extremely sharp and his
memories seemed to be clear.  Throughout the conversation he stuck to the
standard account in a consistent manner.  Although I am quite impressed by
Barry's evidence (or, rather, nonevidence) and know as well as anyone how
prevalent etymological misconceptions and mistaken memories are, I have to
conclude that Nichols' story is most likely factual.

2. Nichols says that the original formulation was "If it can happen, it
will happen."  This was not what Murphy said, it was what Nichols said
after Murphy made some statement about someone else's error.  Nichols did
not regard "If anything can go wrong, it will" as the original Murphy's
Law.  He says "If it can happen, it will happen" was the version used in
the 1950 press conference.

3. Nichols dismissed any later statements by Edward A. Murphy, Jr. as
attempts by Murphy, three decades later, to assert his own importance as
Murphy's Law became famous in the late 1970s.  According to Nichols,
Murphy played a minor role in the original coinage.

4. I pressed Nichols as to where there might be some contemporaneous
documentation of the press conference or its aftermath.  He said that such
documentation would be in advertisements in technical journals in the
months after the press conference.

That's it.  It seems that the most promising avenue for future research is
in technical journals dated 1950.

P.S.  I have previously posted that I have found a 1941 version of
Murphy's Law, not from an aviation or engineering context.  This is true,
but I want to emphasize that this is a similar quotation, not really part
of the main story of Murphy's Law.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Sep 16 21:44:43 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:44:43 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.174443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ease with which this passage can be read is by no means unambiguous
evidence that adults read by grasping the first & last letters of each
word.  The high predictability of each word, and the fact that as
experienced readers of typescript on paper & screen we are all very
accustomed to typos of various sorts and particularly inversions of groups
of letters make mental correcting automatic.
A. Murie


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 16 22:06:42 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:06:42 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.180642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Although the message seems easy to read, the words are not well-scrambled.  Here's the same message, with the internal letters arranged alphabetically; that seems suitably close to a random re-arrangement.

        >"Accdionrg to a raceeehrsr at Cabdigmre Ueiinrstvy, it denos't
maettr in waht oedrr the leertts in a word are, the olny
iamnoprtt thing is taht the first and last leertts be at the
rghit pacle. The rest can be a total mess and you can siltl raed
it whioutt pbelorm. This is bacesue the hamun mind deos not
raed eervy leettr by ielstf, but the word as a whole."<

        This actually makes the shorter words easier to read, especially when the internal letters happen to be alphabetical already, but longer words become progressively less recognizable.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?


>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 01:05:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT
Subject: Herb; "Caesar Salad scion" Cardini dies; OT: Still Crazy
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.210541.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COMPLETELY OT:  MORE PARKING TICKETS, OR, STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS

   "What do you do?"  someone just asked me on the subway.  I told him.
   "That must be interesting," he said.  Then he thought a moment and related
some experiences.  "I don't know how you can put up with it."
    I had another day in the room with no air.  I missed meeting the
Merriam-Webster Word Wizard yestereday because I was still doing parking tickets in
the Bronx at 6:30 p.m.
   Paul Simon has recently gotten back togather with Art Garfunkel, and I've
used his music as an anthem, going from "Crazy" to "Still Crazy," from Paul's
"I'll never worry--why should I?" to Patsy's "Worry?  Why should I let myself
worry?"  Going from Paul's "four in the morning" to...five in the morning.
   A few years ago, one parking respondent told me that he couldn't afford to
pay the ticket.  "Is there something else I can do?"
   "No," I said.  "Just try to pay the ticket within seven days."
   "I can't pay the ticket.  Is there some community serviceI could do
instead?"
   "No," I said again.  "Just pay the ticket."
   "I'll sing your favorite song," he suggested.  I didn't say anything to
that.  Sing my favorite song?
   "I'll sing your favorite song," he said again.
   "No, just pay the ticket!" I said.
   "I'll bark like a dog.  I can bark like a dog!"
   "Pay the ticket!  That's it!  This hearing is over!"
   And then he barked like a dog--in a hearing room of the Bronx Parking
Violations Bureau Help Center.
   "Do I still have to pay the ticket?" he asked.
   He left the room.  Other judges entered the room..  "Did you just have
someone bark like a dog?" they asked me.
   Yeah, yeah.
   After the Help Center staff stopped laughing, one person asked me:
   "What _is_ your favorite song?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HERB

   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C. subway
(Coll. J. Sheidlower)."
   Ah, another food etymology--and from the New York City subway, too.
   From THE SUN (NY), 16 September 2003, pg. 16, col. 3, a book review of
Jonathan Lethem's THE FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE:

_The Herb Grows Up_
By TIM MARCHMAN
   Two days after I turned 12 years old, I had my first day of junior high
school.
(...)(These first "book review" paragraphs discuss the book reviewer at 12
years old--ed.)
   One of Wakim's boys shoved me back hard against the crowd.  "You want
some, herb?" he asked.
   I'd never heard the word before, but as I soon found it was one of those
words that can define existence for a 12-year-old boy while remaining unknown
to the broader world.  In the 1980s it was (and may still be, I don't know)
both noun and verb.  A "herb" was a born victim, nearly always white; to be
"herbed" was to be on the bad end of an intimidation game where you gave up your
new Starter cap, your JanSport bag, the few dollars in your pocket, or even your
bus pass, all on pretext that you somehow had a special and protective
relationship with your assailant.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CAESAR SALAD SCION" CARDINI DIES

   From THE SUN (NY), 16 September 2003, pg. 15, col. 1:

_Rosa Maria Cardini, 75, Bottled Cardini's Caesar Dressing_
   SAN DIEGO--Rosa Maria Cardini, who bottled her father's Caesar salad
dressing recipe and created a multimillion-dollar business, died September 3, age
75.
   Caesar Cardini introduced the dressing at Caesar's Hotel, a Tijuana
restaurant popular with Hollywood celebrities such as Clark Gable and Jean Harlow in
the 1920s.  His version omitted the customary anchovies.
(...)--Associated Press.


   During my trip to Croatia, my last trip, way back in what seems the
ancient times of June, my tour guide (the tour company's old pro) told me that he
once had this Cardini-clan woman on his tour.  He then visited the Cardini salad
bowl museum.  He told me that it's a good museum and that she opened it just
for him, but he was most amazed at her enthusiasm over thousands of ordinary
salad bowls.  He wanted to leave after a few minutes, but she would go on with
"...and then so-and-so ate a Caesar salad in this bowl..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE ARTICLE & CHARLOTTE RESPONSE (continued, of course)

   I e-mailed the writers of both recent "Big Apple" articles.  The CHARLOTTE
OBSERVER guy wrote back (below).  He didn't get the "whore hoax" story from
the New-York Historical Society, did he?
   Yes, he did!
   The current president of the New-York Historical Society is Kenneth
Jackson, the editor of its ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995). Nowhere in Gerald
Cohen's "Big Apple" entry did Cohen mention whores.  For good reason.
   Maybe Cohen or George Thompson could speak to the N-YHS about this
disgrace?
   I don't know if I can send the N-YHS a civil letter at this point.
Besides,  I'm too busy with parking tickets.


Subj:   RE: "Big Apple" was wrong
Date:   9/16/2003 9:55:22 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:jelder at charlotteobserver.com">jelder at charlotteobserver.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Great research, Barry! I think I might have come across you in my research,
but I was writing on deadline during the blackout, hoping to offer a tribute
to the city at a tough time. I figured at the time that getting in the
jockey angle as the main explanation was sufficient. Yes, I believe the
society did give me the brothel angle.

Thanks for the note, and good luck in your continued word sleuthing.

Jeff Elder
Glad You Asked - Send us a question!
The Charlotte Observer
(704) 358-5032



-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at aol.com [mailto:Bapopik at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:54 PM
To: glad at charlotteobserver.com
Subject: "Big Apple" was wrong


   I solved "the Big Apple" and dedicated "Big Apple Corner" in 1997.  It
should have been in your story.  Simply Google "Barry Popik" (my name) and
"Big Apple."  How could you miss me?
   Just curious, but did the New-York Historical Society give you the
prostitution story?

Barry Popik
New York, NY


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Sep 17 02:55:44 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:55:44 -0500
Subject: NY Historical Society supports prostitution etymology of "The Big
 Apple"?
In-Reply-To: <11e.258c119c.2c990d65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.215544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  I'll write to Kenneth Jackson some time in the next few days about
the matter Barry mentions below. The prostitution etymology of "The
Big Apple" is thoroughly discredited, and I'm optimistic that Dr.
Jackson will realize this as soon as he reads two items on the
subject:
1) Gerald Cohen: "'The Big Apple'" Prostitution Etymology", _Comments
on Etymology_, vol. 30, no. 8, May 2001, pp. 4-19.
2) Barry Popik: "'Big Apple' Whore Theory Reappears (Continuing
Saga)," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 31, no. 6, March 2002, p.2.

    Also, in broader terms I now see what needs to be done: My book on
the origin of NYC's nickname The Big Apple needs to be revised, with
Barry and myself listed as co-authors this time and with the
additional information of the past ten years or so included.
Presently there's the monograph, several additional articles in the
_Studies in Slang_ monograph series_, and several items in _Comments
on Etymology_. In particular, Barry's extraordinary research needs to
be incorporated into the volume, with due credit of course. It's
already written up, but many people seem most comfortable with
finding everything in a single volume.

     That revised volume, especially if publicized well, should become
the standard reference work on the origin of "The Big Apple" and help
steer scholars/journalists/historical societies away from the obvious
pitfalls.

     When will this happen? Let's see, there's "hot dog" waiting to be
written up in book form. Maybe afterwards.

Gerald Cohen
Professor of Foreign Languages
editor, Comments on Etymology
University of Missouri-Rolla
Rolla, MO 65409


>At 9:05 PM -0400 9/16/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>BIG APPLE ARTICLE & CHARLOTTE RESPONSE (continued, of course)
>
>    I e-mailed the writers of both recent "Big Apple" articles.  The CHARLOTTE
>OBSERVER guy wrote back (below).  He didn't get the "whore hoax" story from
>the New-York Historical Society, did he?
>    Yes, he did!
>    The current president of the New-York Historical Society is Kenneth
>Jackson, the editor of its ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY (1995).
>Nowhere in Gerald
>Cohen's "Big Apple" entry did Cohen mention whores.  For good reason.
>    Maybe Cohen or George Thompson could speak to the N-YHS about this
>disgrace?
>    I don't know if I can send the N-YHS a civil letter at this point.
>Besides,  I'm too busy with parking tickets.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 17 03:19:25 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:19:25 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Media: Des Moines Register: Origin of "Des Moines"
Message-ID: <TUE.16.SEP.2003.231925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From the Linguist List:  another topological etymology for our debunkers?

L
--- begin forwarded text

LINGUIST List:  Vol-14-2456. Tue Sep 16 2003. ISSN: 1068-4875.

Subject: 14.2456, Media: Des Moines Register: Origin of "Des Moines"

Date:  Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:16:17 +0800
From:  "Karen Chung" <karchung at ntu.edu.tw>
Subject:  DMRegister: Origin of  "Des Moines"


     The 9/14/2003 issue of the Des Moines Register online has an
interesting piece on the possibly scatological origin of the city name
"Des Moines":

     Is 'Des Moines' just some dirty joke?
     Oh, poo! Our capital's name seems to stem from rival potty mouths.
     By Mary Challender

     The opening paragraphs:

     A linguist specializing in the extinct Miami-Illinois language
says he's come across a funny, 330-year-old story that gives "Des
Moines" new meaning.
        And - chamber of commerce-types might want to brace themselves - it
appears we've been punked.
     The article mentions in passing the controversy regarding the
origin of "Chicago".

     The URL:

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4788998/22247528.html

     Thanks to Laura Lawless of the French About.com site for featuring
this article in her 9/17/03 newsletter.


     Karen Steffen Chung
     http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~karchung/
     http://www.topica.com/lists/phonetics/




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINGUIST List: Vol-14-2456

--- end forwarded text


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 06:48:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:48:50 EDT
Subject: Bleg & Blog; Pescatarian; Big Snapple
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.024850.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLEG & BLOG--Andrew Sullivan's "blog" uses "bleg" today.  It's not in the
WordSpy. Both words together have 466 Google hits.  See:
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/glossary_archives/003852.html

PESCATARIAN--It's the WordSpy word of the day.  I posted "pescatarian" here
about eight months ago.

BIG SNAPPLE--Snapple has signed an agreement with New York City to be the
official iced tea of, of, Gotham.  There's an article by Marian Burros about
Snapple in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES.  Snapple has "real facts" under its bottle
caps.  If anyone spots my work used yet again without credit or
compensation--you know it's gonna happen soon--please e-mail me the bottle cap info.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 12:56:37 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:56:37 EDT
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.085637.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT, >   Bapopik at AOL.COM
> writeth:
>
> HERB
>
>   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
> Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
> City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C.
> subway
> (Coll. J. Sheidlower)."


Didn't the Burger King chain have an advertising campaign in the late 1980's
in which there were pictures of "Herb" posted and if you spotted the person in
the picture and asked him, "Are you Herb" you won a prize?

If memory serves, the Wall Street Journal did a front-page article on this
advertising campaign.

I think it more likely that Burger King's advertising people picked up
(perhaps unconsciously) on an existing connotation of "Herb" as a nickname for a
geekish person than that they managed to pile such a connotation onto a
previously colorless nickname.

I also think there is no connection to the existence of VP-later-President G.
Herbert Bush.

     - Jim Landau


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Sep 17 13:19:13 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:19:13 +0100
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.141913.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I can offer nothing between this distinctly UK cite and the
popularization of the 1990s, I have found

1938 James Curtis _They Drive by Night_ 13: Good old Pompey [sc.
Portsmouth]. That's where all the right herbs ended up

The context makes it clear that meaning, with its assumption that the name
Herbert is innately funny (plus overtones of nerdish) is that of the later
uses. The UK also has the synonymous 'Herbert'.

Jonathon Green


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 17 13:29:16 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:29:16 EDT
Subject: Walrus market
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.092916.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<A HREF="http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2003/09/03/cx_cd_0903sport.html">http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2003/09/03/cx_cd_0903sport.html</A>

<begin quote>
The World's Most Expensive Yachts 2003
byline = 'Breckinridge Ely
<snip>
It would seem that mega-yacht prices are somehow linked to Hollywood film
budgets--in uncertain economic times, they go up. Those yachts that have left the
list (and presumably "sold") represent over $140 million worth of heavy metal
(and plastic). We dubbed last year's sagging yacht market a "walrus market,"
which is a yachtsman's version of a bear market. Now we see some yachts
ratcheting their prices skyward, while others are looking for a bottom with drastic
price cuts.
<end quote>

There is also a, probably unintentional, play on words in the last sentence.
Among shippers, "bottom" is a synonym for "merchant ship".

Incidentally, was it a stockbroker who was responsible for the Chicago Bulls
and the Chicago Bears?

      - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep 17 14:47:24 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:47:24 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <1a2.1a210a36.2c99b405@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.104724.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 08:56:37AM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
> In a message dated Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:05:41 EDT, >   Bapopik at AOL.COM
> > writeth:
> >
> > HERB
> >
> >   The RHHDAS has "Herb" (_Stu._ a clumsy or stupid person; GEEK) from 1993,
> > Univ. Tenn. prof., age 49.  Did that Tennessee professor come from New York
> > City?  The other cites are NYC, including one "1994 Graffito in N.Y.C.
> > subway
> > (Coll. J. Sheidlower)."
>
>
> Didn't the Burger King chain have an advertising campaign in the late 1980's
> in which there were pictures of "Herb" posted and if you spotted the person in
> the picture and asked him, "Are you Herb" you won a prize?

Yes, I don't know the exact date but the BK campaign definitely
popularized this term. We now have evidence slightly earlier than
1993.

I don't know if the U Tenn professor was a New Yorker, but it was
not Lighter himself, if that's what Barry was actually asking.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 17 17:45:48 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:45:48 -0400
Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.134548.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See now the snopes posting on this at
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp

I just got yet another version, in which the finding is attributed to
"rscheearch [sic; that double -ch- strikes again] at Txes [sic] M&A
Uinervtisy".

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Sep 17 17:47:05 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:47:05 -0400
Subject: Slate article on Johnson's Dictionary
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.134705.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://slate.msn.com/id/2088405/


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Sep 17 23:18:21 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:18:21 -0700
Subject: Weekly Standard piece on LSA guidelines on sexist examples
Message-ID: <WED.17.SEP.2003.161821.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This from David Skinner, who wrote that earlier piece on pronouns and
antecedents that was batted around on the list.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/113vubjh.asp

Geoff Nunberg


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 18 04:29:54 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:29:54 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <20030917144723.GA11388@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.002954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yes, I don't know the exact date but the BK campaign definitely
>popularized this term. We now have evidence slightly earlier than
>1993.

Search Google groups under "nerd [and] herb" and you'll find an item from
1986 in which BK's Herb is characterized as a "burger-chomping nerd" and a
"pencil neck geek".

I think "Herb" was an 'innocent' name previously without any association
with geekery ... there was Herb Alpert [Tijuana Brass] for example ...
possibly a "Herb" was a prosaic guy, "Joe Citizen", but not a pencil-neck
or sucker or whatever. As for "Herbert", how long ago did the Herbert
Tareyton cigarette label disappear? Surely it was still around in the 1960's?

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Sep 18 11:12:46 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:12:46 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030918001949.050613e0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.071246.0400.>

> I think "Herb" was an 'innocent' name previously without any
> association
> with geekery ... there was Herb Alpert [Tijuana Brass] for example ...
> possibly a "Herb" was a prosaic guy, "Joe Citizen", but not a
> pencil-neck
> or sucker or whatever. As for "Herbert", how long ago did the Herbert
> Tareyton cigarette label disappear? Surely it was still
> around in the 1960's?

There was a Star Trek:TOS (The Original Series) episode, "The Way To Eden"
(aired Feb 1969) where a group of bohemian "space hippies" used the name
"Herbert" as an epithet for (as defined by Spock) "a minor official
notorious for his rigid and limited patterns of thought."

And AFAIK, Herbert Tareyton cigarettes are still around. There are web sites
offering them for sale.


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Sep 18 12:32:15 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:32:15 -0400
Subject: Herb <snip>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.083215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:30:20 -0400
>To: dave at wilton.net
>From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at nb.net>
>Subject: Re: Herb <snip>
>
>>There was a Star Trek:TOS (The Original Series) episode, "The Way To Eden"
>>(aired Feb 1969) where a group of bohemian "space hippies" used the name
>>"Herbert" as an epithet for (as defined by Spock) "a minor official
>>notorious for his rigid and limited patterns of thought."
>
>There are a number of 'inside jokes' in "Star Trek", I'm told. Herbert
>Solow apparently was a production executive. Possibly this name was the
>inspiration.
>
>I wonder whether this would have propagated. I didn't remember it, and I
>saw the "Eden" episode ... among others.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 18 16:23:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.122347.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CARIBBEAN FOOD

   I just received the Dictionary Society of North America's "Spring 2003"
newsletter.  With only about a week left of SUMMER!
   These books are due out in the "summer," but it's not summer, because I'll
be waiting for ProQuest's Chicago Tribune in late August.  (If I can only
pick stocks or bet on horses with seasonal timing like this.)

Pg. 2:
_Jeannette Allsopp_ is working on a Caribbean Multilingual Dictionary
(Engligh, French, Spanish, French Creole).  Volume I (Flora, Fauna, Foods) is due to
be published this summer.
_Richard Allsop_ has a publication of due out this summer (?...Also, it's
ALLSOPP--ed.): _A Book of Afric-Caribbean Proverbs_.  The book will have
approximately 300 pages.  The publisher is Arawak Publications, Kingston, Jamaica.

   "Flora, Fauna, Foods" probably won't give us historical citations, but I'd
like to look at it.  It's not yet published, AFAIK.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NOTES ON THE WEST INDIES
by George Pinckard
in three volumes
London: Longman, Hurst, Rees , and Orme
1806
Reprinted in 1970 by
Negro Universities Press
A Division of Greenwood Press, Inc.
Westport, Connecticut

   OED has already gone through this book for about a dozen citations.
However, it did not include the 1806 "sandwich."  It's probably not our first New
World "sandwich," but I'll note it, anyway, for the "Sandwich Lady."


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto woman,
who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
*The negro term used for _white_.
   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.  You can hardly miss something like
this, but the OED person reading this book somehow did--ed.)

Pg. 264:  The instrumental parts of the band consist of a species of drum, a
kind of rattle, and (Pg. 265--ed.) their ever-delighting Banjar.
   (This "banjo" spelling is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 346:  At two o'clock we had commenced with punch; after which came the
mandram; at three was served dinner; busy eating and drinking continued until
five; and then appeared the sprats, and bowl of milk-punch: thus did nearly four
hours pass in high banquetting and conviviality at this social cottage.
   (The revised OED has 1756, then 1814 for "mandram"--ed.)

Pg. 372:  He entreated us, with much kindness and urgent solicitation, to
make a visit to his estate before we leave Barbadoes, apologizing in his own
mirthful way, for not having it in his power to offer us more than a "plain
farmer's dinner,--_a pig, a duck, and a turkey cock_."

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib, nor
Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves, who
proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately replies--"_Me
neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)

Pg. 97:  In the course of the forenoon are used fruits, or sandwiches, with
(Pg. 98--ed.) free libations of punch and sangaree.  Immediately preceding
dinner, which is usually at an early hour, are taken punch and mandram.

Pg. 99:  The various species of red pepper, known in England under the common
term _Cayenne_, are used in quantities that would seem incredible to people
of colder climates.

Pg. 102:  The puddings mostly used are of citron, coco-nut, yam, lemon, and
custard, and do great credit to the Barbadoes cookery-book.

Pg. 102:  At such a moment, a draught of sangaree approaches nearer, perhaps,
to god-like nectar, than any other known liquor.  It consists of half Madeira
wine and half water, acidulated with the fragrant lime, sweetened with sugar,
and flavored with nutmeg.  A stronger sort of it is sometimes drank under the
superlative name of _sangrorum_.  This differs from the former, (Pg.
103--ed.) only in containing a greater proportion of wine.
   ("Sangrorum" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied; breakfast,
dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part the same
throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn, with a
small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was given to
each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly worn
out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes, and
sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is, commonly,
issued as the weekly supply;...

Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one of
their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds of
vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very high with
capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called squashes, is
much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential, and
held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the slaves of
the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters, but
they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the eddoe.

Pg. 232:  Fortunately my bedding was not left behind with my other baggage,
and this is now put up in the windward apartment at out hospital barrack, where
I look forward to much comfort, from the protection of my musquito curtain.*
*A kind of gauze net without opening, thrown over the whole of the bed and
bedstead, and shut close at bottom, by means of a heavy border or lead, which
falls upon the floor.
   (The revised OED has 1770, then 1851 for "mosquito curtain"--ed.)

Pg. 233:  I now suffer considerably from the "prickly heat," but this would
be very supportable were it not for the additional, and greater torment of
musquitoes, ants, centipedes, jack-spaniards,* and the multitudes of other insects
biting, buzzing about our ears, crawling upon every thing we touch, and
filling the whole atmosphere around us.
*A large species of wasp.
   (OED has 1833 for "jack-spaniard...Not only is it here, in this classic
book, but it's in a note.  No way any reader can miss it--ed.)

Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of bread,
and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which loses
its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat like the
essence used under the name of soy.

Pg. 339:  We breakfasted and set off at an early hour, in order to have the
day before us, and arrived at this gentleman's abode just as he was sitting
down to his Dutch breakfast of very excellent crab soup, some fine fish, a
tongue, and a variety of other good things.  It is the custom of the Dutch to take
coffee in bed, or as soon as they rise, and to make a more substantial
breakfast of soup and solids about ten o'clock.

Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
multitudes of fruits.  Nor were the fluids of the banquet less amply administered.
Hock, Claret, Madeira, and Port wines were in liberal (Pg. 362--ed.) use.  We
had also Seltzer and Spa waters, likewise bottled small beer, ale, and
porter, with brandy, rum, Hollands, noyeau, and other liquers--all in supply
sufficient for a lord, mayor's feast.

Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food of
the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but (Pg.
423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare, and of
very delicate pork.  It is dressed without casing; the skin being considered the
most favorite part of the idsh.  This is very thick, and in cooking becomes
gelatinous, like the calves head, or turtle.  The Indians scald off the hair or
fur, then cut the animal in pieces, and stew it in cassada juice, seasoning
it very high with capsicum.  Thus prepared, it is truly delicious, and if it
could be had in London, might form a dish not unworthy the notice of a
mansion-house purveyor.
   (Laba?--ed.)

Pg. 428:  A small species of deer, called _wirrebocerra_, the laba, and the
armadillo are among the animals they most esteem.

Pg. 428:  Very commonly they prepare their food in the form of
pepper-pot--their favorite dishes being crabs, or laba, stewed with cassada (Pg. 429--ed.)
juice, and seasoned extremely hot with red pepper.
   I can give testimony to both of these being very rich and good; perhaps in
point of flavour the pepper-pot of crabs claims the preference; but wither
might be a feast for an epicure.  In one of the huts we saw part of an
armadillo, which had been broiled or roasted in its shell.  It was well-flavored, and
in appearance and taste not very unlike young pig.  Water is their common
drink, but they sometimes use a fermented liquor called _piworree_, which they make
from cassada.  This is intoxicating, and has some resemblance to beer.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 41:  Diverted with the naked little _Pickaninny_, I took her upon my
knee, and danced her about, and played with her for some time;...

Pg. 299:  ...adding a laba pepper-pot to our boat provisions,...

Pg. 317:  He had been into the woods in the morning, and killed a fine laba,
which, immediately upon our arrival, was scalded to remove (Pg. 319--ed.) its
coat, and within a few minutes it was cut in pieces, and put into the kettle
with cassada juice, pods of red peppers, and various vegetables, for the
purpose of being stewed into a most excellent pepper pot, which in a little time was
placed before us upon the table.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 18 17:55:35 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: If Gore did not invent the Internet, who did?
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.135535.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the now-notorious ADS-L Digest - 10 Sep 2003 to 11 Sep 2003 (#2003-254),
which introduced the world to the phrase "gradual student" (Brenda Lester, Thu,
11 Sep 2003 11:41:26 ):

Barry Popik (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:15:17) clearly and unambiguously refers to a
post to the ADS-L list that he made in 1956.  Considering that e-mail was not
invented until 1960 (as part of Project MAC at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology), we now have the answer to the title question.  The Internet was
invented not by Vice-President Gore but by Judge Popik.

Also we need to examine George Thompson's letter of Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15
, which reads in part:
"all the members, on arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk
underware and hosiery, and some wore women's wigs.  The members made up with powder
and paint as for the stage, according to the recital by the officers, and the
orgies were attented [sic---attainted?] by at least fifty at each meeting."

(Aside: we have the noun "makeup" meaning "cosmetics" and the past participle
"made up" meaning "having had cosmetics applied", so we should not be
surprised at an active preterite form "made up" meaning "applied cosmetics to
oneself").

As a professional in the computer business, I have encountered hardware,
software, firmware, and vaporware, but I cannot recall ever having heard
"underware".  Not even from the company which back in the early 1980's manufactured
"Baby Blue"  (an add-on board to the then-new IBM PC to enable it to run CP/M
programs; the name is an obvious play on IBM's nickname of "Big Blue").

Now to be serious.  "Underware" above reminded me that I failed to report an
actual and I believe widespread computer proverb:  "That's a skinware problem"
meaning usually "that's not a problem with the computer system; the (human)
user did something dumb".  Less often it can mean "that's not a problem with
the computer; the programmer goofed."

This proverb is of course the computer jargon equivalent of "The problem was
the nut holding the wheel."

            James A. Landau
            systems engineer
            FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
            Atlantic City Int'l Airport   NJ   08405   USA


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Thu Sep 18 18:15:15 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:15:15 +0100
Subject: If Gore did not invent the Internet, who did?
In-Reply-To: <E1A030h-0002Qk-Kc@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.191515.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On D?ardaoin, MF?mh 18, 2003, at 18:55 Europe/Dublin, James A. Landau
wrote:

> As a professional in the computer business, I have encountered
> hardware,
> software, firmware, and vaporware, but I cannot recall ever having
> heard
> "underware".  Not even from the company which back in the early 1980's
> manufactured
> "Baby Blue"  (an add-on board to the then-new IBM PC to enable it to
> run CP/M
> programs; the name is an obvious play on IBM's nickname of "Big Blue").

"Underware" is the technical term applied to the 'lost' manuals,
guarantee cards and other detritus which builds up underneath
computers. :-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Sep 18 19:34:36 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:34:36 -0400
Subject: Adirondack talk
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.153436.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

Can anyone help this reporter out? Please respond directly to her,
not to me. My knowledge of this area is nil.

dInIs


I am a reporter in upstate New York interested in writing a story on
the "North Country" or "Adirondack" dialect and its origins. It might
not be a dialect, but it is an accent so strong as to be almost
unintelligible at times. So, is there  anyone around who could speak
about this? I think it has to do with French Canadian influence and
isolation within the confines of the Adirondack State Park for a
century or so.

Abigail Tucker
tucker at poststar.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 00:33:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:33:52 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1930)
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.203352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest digitization update:  No CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  No update of APS ONLINE.  LOS ANGELES TIMES to 1932, but still no "cheeseburger" or corndog" or "taco."



      LINGUISTIC CONFUSIONS OF STUDIOS DECIPHERED
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1930.                   p. B7 (1 page):
   Action--A commodity which the production office prays for.
   Alibi--A form of buck-passing; see buckle, light valve.
   Amplifier--An electrical device for making a tenor sound like a basso.
   Art--A form of alibi when box-office returns are low.
   Author--A person who sells magazine stories with one eye on the movie producers.
OVERSIZE REFRIGERATOR
   Booth==An overgrown refrigerator used to keep cameramen in a ripened condition.
   Breakaway--A trick device that always works in rehearsals, but never in scenes.
   Broad--A lighting device used to heat the back of  player's neck.
   Buckle--Mysterious camera ailment.  See alibi.
   Bungalow--Form of camera booth for Singer's Midgets.
   Cameraman--Any individual who connects the motor with the camera and lets the motor do the work.
   Cutter--A film editor in the process of hatching out.
   Cutting Room--A padded cubicle furnished with trash bins and several pairs of scissors.
   Daily Room--A small dark room where the bad news comes to light.
BEFORE AND AFTER
   Dialogue--Perfectly intelligent speech before passing through microphone.
   Dubbing--Process used to making two sounds grow where one grew before.
   Electrician--Individual who enlivens an otherwise dull scene by throwing down pieces of (illegible word--ed.) from the light platform.
   Fade-out--Device for cutting footage without shock to natives.
   Focus--Game played by cameramen with lenses and pieces of old lace curtains.
   Frameline--A dividing line over which unidentified noses, ears and microphones appear.
   Gaffer--A socially eligible electrician.
   Gamma--A Greek letter used by sound technicians to confuse the listener.
CLOTH HIDES SET
   Gobo--A black cloth hung over the set to prevent the visitors from seeing anything.
   Grip--A general utility man who enlivens rehearsals by vigorous hammering.
   Horn--The device by means of which the sound department's efforts reach the cash customers.
   Hot--a reference to temperature.  (2) A term of admiration.
   Huddle--Story conference.
   Interlock--A plaintive wail used promiscuously as a form of lung exercise.
   Lines--What actors are supposed to remember.
   Lyricist--A high-ahtted song writer.
   Make--A highly technical term.
   Mike--Excuse for a lot of easterners to come west.
   Mixer--A form of overhead.
   Option--Prelude to a one-way rail journey.
   Pan--To rotate a camera about the center; (2) to enthuse about a coworker.
   Parallel--An elevated platform for the afternoon siesta.
   Playback--Device used to find out whether the recording crew is really working.
   Practical--Any device that really works.  (Does not include cast.)
HOW TO SAVE MONEY
   Preview--A swell way to save 65 cents.
   Projection Room--An attractive form of hideaway.
   Press Agent--Semiretired publicity man.
   Props--Small knick-knacks to be taken home to furnish the living-room.
   Release Date--A date always four days prior to the time humanly possible to have a picture finished.
   Retake--Outcome of huddle.
   Schedule--Eighteen days' work in ten days.
   Spot--A hypothetical mark where an actor is supposed to stop in order to be in focus.
   Stage Control--A young man who counts loudly into the microphone for no good reason.
   Synchronization--A contributory cause to an outburst of profanity.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 01:56:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:56:01 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1925) and more
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.215601.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GOBO


      NOW COMES LEXICOGRAPHER OF WEIRD VERNACULAR USED ON HOLLYWOOD STUDIO LOTS
       FRANCIS PERRETT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 29, 1925.                   p. B6 (1 page):
   PROPS--Materials with which settings are furnished or articles used in a scene, anything from an elephant to a pin cushion.
   SHAKE 'EM--An order directing the switch operator on a set to quickly switch the lights off and on again to make them burn more steadily.
   FLAT--A canvas or composition board of varying size used to box in a set where a company is working from the rest of the stage.
   NIGGER--A composition board on a rack placed between the lights and the camera so as to keep the light from striking the lens.
   BROAD--A twin-arc Kleig light.
   BABY--A small spotlight.
   SPOT--Spotlight.
   SCRIPT--Scenario.
   CUT!--The director's order to the cameraman to stop cranking.
   FADE-IN--A scene which starts on the screen as blank film and gradually gives the various objects definite outline.
   JUVENILE:  A young leading man.
   INGENUE:  A young leading woman.
   LEAD:  The person playing the chief female or male role in a picture.
   HEAVY:  Villain.
   SHOT:  A scene.
   LOT:  Anyplace in the studio except the executive buildings, laboratories, wardrobe department, etc.
   FLAT LIGHT:  A light which strikes directly into the object or person being photographed and gives no shadows.
   FLATLIGHT BABY:  An actor whose face is so lined that only a flat light will lessen his appearance of age.
   SCENE DOCK:  Rack where scenery is kept.
   STILL:  A photograph made with an ordinary camera, not a motion-picture camera.
   FOOTAGE:  The number of feet in a picture, its length.
   DAILIES:  The result of a day's filming which the director, cameraman and, perhaps, the leading players in a company look at in the projection room after work at night.  The company always views the preceding day's work.
   RUSHES:  Same as dailies.
   CUTTER:  The person who takes the hundreds of thousands of feet of film shot on a production, cuts out the superfluous portions and assembles them in the finished form in which it is shown in theaters.
   LENS LOUSE--An actor who is always forcing his face into the camera lens.
   TRIMS--Portions of a film production eliminated in the cutting room.
   ASH CAN--A variety of spotlight.
   HOT POINTS--The cry sounded by a cameraman carrying a camera with the sharp tripod points forward, through a crowd.
   MUFF--Beard.
   BLOOD POCKETS--Artificial wounds made so as to permit "blood" to drip forth.
   TRAILER--Excerpts from a production shown at theater the week before the picture comes, to advertise the picture.
   PROP WAGON--The cabinet, mounted on wheels, in which the prop man carries the thousand-odds and end of articles which may be called into use on a set.
   HAND PROPS--Small articles.
   STRIKE--To dismantle a setting.
   DRESS--To furnish a setting.
   IRIS IN--Same as fade in.
   IRIS OUT--Same as fade out.
   SCRIPT CLERK--A clerk who sits on the set and checks the scenes as they are filmed, the number of each one, the individual attire of the players, the arrangement of the furniture and every other detail of the filming of each scene, information concerning which may be necessary at some further time.
   OK--A director's expression announcing that the scene has been filmed to his liking.
   SET 'EM UP--Placing and focusing of the cameras.
   WRAP 'EM UP--Dismantling and packing of the cameras.
   SETUP--The place where the cameras are placed.
   PARALLEL--Portable platform on which the camera is sometimes placed to gain an advantage of view, usually to shoot down on a crowd.
   ELEPHANT EAR--A form of gobo consisting of an upright post with a black card or board suspended at right angles, used to shade the camera lens from overhead light.
   HANG AN EAR ON IT--An order to place a black board at the side of a spotlight or other light to keep the rays of light from the lens of the camera.
   TAPE--Film.
   MYSTERY BOX--Motion picture camera.
   IRON PEDDLER--An electrician.
   HUNGRY--An electrician.
   SCOOP--An overhead broad.
   ROTARY--A huge spotlight that can be turned around.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GOBO

   Another "gobo" hit, but I couldn't read a word of this.  I'll check out the microfilm reel in a few minutes.


      A STRANGE LANGUAGE BORN OF UNION OF ODD JARGONS
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 17, 1929.                   p. A2 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WINDY CITY

   The following may be true.  I'd like to go to the Library of Congress again, but I've been stuck doing parking tickets all summer.  David Shulman wants to take away my free day again next week.


      WINDY CITY CALMING DOWN
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 29, 1927.                   p. 3 (1 page):
   CHICAGO, Oct. 28.  (AP)--Chicago is known as the "Windy City," but is it?
(...)
   Even without the skyscrapers, Mr. Cox said, Chicago is no windier than any other lake city, and not a bit windier than New York, still speaking meteorologically, he was careful to point out.
   The suggestion was made, however, the designation "Windy City" is not based on meteorological considerations at all.  Some old-timers say that the nickname became popular shortly after the fire of 1871 because those engaged in rebuilding "were plainly bragging about the city of the future."
(...)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:32:38 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:32:38 -0400
Subject: Not!
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.223238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a small New Jersey town.

 

>>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!' _Not!"_<<

 

John Baker

 


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:42:03 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:42:03 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA94@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.224203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 10:32:38PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
> I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a small New Jersey town.
>
>
>
> >>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!' _Not!"_<<
>

Yes, this example--which was actually first published in
1905--was quoted in Sheidlower & Lighter's _American Speech_
article on the term, and also appears in HDAS.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 02:46:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:46:27 -0400
Subject: Gobo (1929) and more
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.224627.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I can read the microfilm reel's page.  I'll type the whole thing.  Any typos are yours to keep.
   Pg. A2 is the automobile section..."Cake money" and "soup" and "coffee and cakes" are the few food terms here.



      A STRANGE LANGUAGE BORN OF UNION OF ODD JARGONS
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 17, 1929.                   p. A2 (1 page):
   NOW that the musical shows, the vaudeville acts and the stage plays have come to the motion picture screen, Hollywood is struggling with new additions to its already complicated vocabulary.
   Whereas in the past it was difficult enough to keep track of "broads," "gobos" and "turtles," the lay mind is apt to get groggy listening to conversations punctuated with remakrs about "grouch bags," "snakes," "cake money" and "hoofers."
   Even the players are having their vocalistic troubles.  Most of them have had stage experience, but having been for some time in the land of "soup," "truck shots," "rough cuts" and "trailers," they have gotten rusty on the footlights vernacular.
   Then there are some who did not take the stage route to pictures and who, a few weeks ago, did not know "hand sitters" from a "dumb set," or who had never heard of George Spelvin.
   To add to the vocaular difficulties on the film capital, the talkers have a few pet terms of their own.  There are "synchronize" an "interlock," for instance.  And there is the "mixer" and the "playback."
   Any seasoned film trooper will glibly tell you that a "broad" is a large light throwing broadside beams; "gobo" is a piece of heavy black cardboard set to cut off light from a section of a set, and that "turtles" are squat boxes covering connections for electrical cables.
   Some of them are still apt to hesitate and to be a little self-conscious in explaining that a "grouch bag" is the real or mythical receptacles in which a trouper carries his or her season's savings; or that a "snake" is a contortionist, and "hoofers" are dancers.
   Charles "Buddy" Rogers is one of the screen's luminaries, who has learned plenty of new expressions with the coming of the talkies.  Rogers went from University of Kansas directly to the screen, so he missed contact with the "curtain raisers," the "humpty-dumpties" and the "allez-oopers."
   He had a capable teacher in Jack Oakie.  Oakie trouped in vaudeville and did his turns in the musical shows before he went west to Hollywood.  And, as one good turn deserves another, he has voluntarily made himself Rogers' vocabular mentor.
(Last column--ed.)
   "Buddy" revealed to the willing pupil from the musical shows that "hot ropes" are electric cables carrying heavy voltage; "soup" is the chemical solution in which films are developed; the "front office" is the place where the company exectuvies hold their conferences; "cut" is an order for cameras to quit turning; "hot points" are a signal to beware of a camera being carried through a crowd with the sharp ends of the tripod foremost; "trailers" are bits of action from a film used by theaters in advertising coming attractions; "barbering the mob" is putting whiskers on extra players and "save 'em" is the chief electrician's way of ordering
 he lights turned out.  The opportunity for pupil to turn teacher came when the two were assigned feature parts in Paramount's musical play, "Close Harmony."  This being a backstage show, liberally sprinkled with vaudeville and chorus acts, Oakie was right in his element.
   On the other hand, Rogers was somewhat startled when Nancy Caroll came to his dressing room, knocked and asked, "Are you decent?"
   The indignant "Buddy" was on the point of making a warm rejoinder offering character witnesses from Olathe, Kans., to dispel any doubts, when he looked at Oakie.
   From that source he learned that "are you decent?" is an expression much in vogue among stage folks meaning "are you clothed sufficiently to receive visitors?"
   As the production progressed, he also learned that a "magic" is a magician; a "dumb" act is an acrobatic turn; working for "coffee and cakes" is playing for practically nothing while waiting for a better break; "next to closing" is the second to the last act on a vaudeville bill and the spot most desired; "hand sitters" or icicles means a cold audience that is doing no applauding; a "10 per center" is an agent; "fright wig" is a comedy wig equipped with strings that, when pulled, make the hair stand out straight; a "humpty dumpty" is an unintelligent being; "professor" is the orchestra leader, and George Spelvin is a name used in many play casts to bring good luck.
   It is easy to see that vocabulary difficulties are in the offing.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 19 03:14:12 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:14:12 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA94@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.SEP.2003.231412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:32 PM -0400 9/18/03, Baker, John wrote:
>I believe that we may have discussed "Not!" a while back, but it
>isn't an easy term to search for.  I happened to come across this
>example from the classic short story "Pigs Is Pigs," written by
>Ellis Parker Butler and published in 1906.  The speaker is a
>stereotypical Irish-American, the agent of an express company in a
>small New Jersey town.
>
>
>
>  >>"Proceed to collect," he said softly.  "How thim clerks do loike
>to be talkin'!  _Me_ proceed to collect two dollars and twinty-foive
>cints off Misther Morehouse! I wonder do thim clerks _know_ Misther
>Morehouse?  I'll git it!  Oh, yes! 'Misther Morehouse, two an' a
>quarter, plaze.' 'Cert'nly, me dear frind F'annery.  Delighted!'
>_Not!"_<<
>
>
I don't have the relevant issue on me at home, but this one fits in
nicely with quite a number of the examples collected from the same
decade in the Sheidlower & Lighter paper in American Speech in 1993,
some of which were transcribed with the same heavy (purported) Irish
dialect traits.  Jesse, did you have this one?

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 08:14:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:14:18 EDT
Subject: Locro (1867, 1875); Chupe, Chuno (1875)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.041418.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Locro" is not in OED or Merriam-Webster.  There are 7,170 Google hits
(mostly Spanish), but a still considerable 1,160 English-language hits.
   "Chupe" isn't entered, either.  There are 22.200 Google hits (again,
mostly Spanish) for "chupe" and  60,900 for "chupes."
   OED has "chuno" from 1909.
   We don't have to historically research every "Nuevo Latino" dish that
Douglas Rodriguez serves up, but why not?



LATIN LADLES:
FABULOUS SOUPS & STEWS FROM THE KING OF NUEVO LATINO CUISINE
by Douglas Rodriguez
Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press
128 pages, paperback, $17.95

Pg. 52:
CHUPE DE MARISCO
[lick-your-fingers-good seafood chowder]
_Chupes_ are South American chowders, usually made with potatoes, vegetables,
and some type of meat or seafood for flavoring.  _Chupe_ might have derived
from the Spanish word _chupar_, which means "to suck" or "to absorb."  Chupes
are so delicious,you'll want to run your finger around the inside of the bowl
and lick off every last drop.  South Americans believe that a chupe is no good
if it doesn't make you sweat.  So  the soup has to be spicy and served piping
hot.  I like to use big shrimp because I think it's important to see their
color and half-moon shape in the soup.  A classical garnish for this soup would
be hard-boiled eggs, but it's delicious with or without them.  With a salad and
a piece of country-style bread, this soup is a meal.

Pg. 86:
LOCRO DE PAPAS
[creamy peasant-style potato soup]
_Locro_ is a very simple, peasant-style soup that always has potatoes in it.
There are many kinds of locros; this happens to be one of my favorites.  Make
sure to use gold potatoes, as the Ecuadoreans do.



FOUR YEARS AMONG THE ECUADORIANS
by Friedrich Hassaurek
edited and with an introduction by C. Harvey Gardiner
Carbondale and Edwardsville: Southern Illinois Univeristy Press
1967
Originally published as FOUR YEARS AMONG THE SPANISH-AMERICANS
1867 first edition
1868 second edition
1881 third edition

   This is a classic book about Ecuador.  It's been around for over 130
years.  OED missed it completely.

Pg. 3:  At night the air is rent by the lively and sometimes witty
exclamations of boys, offering for sale a kind of candy called carmelo, tallow candles,
tamales (a peculiar dish of the country), ice cream, if ice happens to be in
town, etc.

Pg. 19:  Their food they generally carry with them.  It always consists of a
quantity of barley meal, which they eat raw, a few pieces of aji (cayenne
pepper), which they take like fruit, and sometimes a bag of toasted Indian corn.
These provisions maintain them during the day, and in the evening they mostly
manage to get, either at the expense of the traveler or the chief arriero, a
plate of locro (a potato soup, mixed up with cheese, eggs, and Spanish pepper).


Pg. 146:  The breakfast consisted, as usual, of locro de queso (a potato soup
with cheese and aji), fried eggs, with baked plantain slices and toasted
bread, some meat, and to my utter astonishment, chocolate...

Pg. 153:  The stock offered for sale consisted of the common rum of the
country (aguardiente), distilled from the sugarcane of the province, and preserved
in hides; of anisadas (rum seasoned with anise seed), and of mistelas
(sweetened liquors).

Pg. 153:  They were the cookshops, and aji de cuy, aji de queso, aji de
lobrillo, locro, cariucho, and other national dishes, were prepared for those who
had money to pay for them.  As potatoes form the principal ingredient of all
these dishes, but very little money was required.  No crockery was used.  The
eatables were filled from the pots into calabashes.  Ladles were generally
wanting, smaller calabashes supplying their places.

Pg. 175:  Here they sell macanas (a sort of narrow cotton shawl), ponchos,
wool, cotton, beads, rosaries, leaden crosses, strings of glass pearls, collars
and bracelets of false corrals, and other cheap ornaments; meat, fruit,
vegetables, salt, aji, barley meal, and such popular dishes ready made, as cariucho,
locro, choclos, mashca, toasted corn, etc.



THE ANDES AND THE AMAZON:
OR, ACROSS THE CONTINENT OF SOUTH AMERICA
by James Orton
New York: Harper & Brothers
1875

Pg. 36:  For food they carry a bag of parched corn, another bag of roasted
barley-meal (_mashka_), and a few red peppers.

Pg. 44:  ...prepared for us a calabash of chicken and _locro_.  _Locro_, the
national dish in the mountains, is in plain English simply potato soup.

Pg. 84:  The aim of Ecuadorian cookery is to eradicate all natural flavor;
you wouldn't know you were eating chicken except by the bones.  Even coffee and
chocolate somehow lose their fine Guayaquilian aroma in this high altitude,
and the very pies are stuffed with onions.  But the beef, minus the garlic, is
most excellent, and the _dulce_ unapproachable.

Pg. 193:  Guayusa, or "Napo tea," is another and celebrated production of
Archidona.  It is the large leaf of a tall shrub growing wild.  An infusion of
(Pg. 194--ed.)  guayusa, like the _mate_ of Paraguay (which belongs to the same
genus _Ilex_), is so refreshing it supplies for a long time the place of food.

Pg. 403:  Then, too, the traveler from the mountains, who has been feeding on
_chupe_ and _chicha_, and balancing his worn body on a reckless mule, or a
horse that has nearly reverted to the wild state, transferred to a sumptuous
English steamer, is put into the best of humor, and is ready to bow down to
almost any sign of civilization.

Pg. 423:  Here the Aymara women (who do most of the business) squat on the
ground in rows, each with the little pile of _charqui_ (jerked beef), fish,
dried potatoes (called _chuno_), ocas, _aji_ (red peppers), beans, pease, maize,
barley, quinoa, coca, and clay.

Pg. 514:  The liquor made from Bananas is called _mazato_.

Pg. 518:  The chicha made from it (Pg. 519--ed.) is called "masato."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 13:00:27 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:00:27 -0400
Subject: Not!
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bb902461c325@[130.132.231.173]>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.090027.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 11:14:12PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >
> I don't have the relevant issue on me at home, but this one fits in
> nicely with quite a number of the examples collected from the same
> decade in the Sheidlower & Lighter paper in American Speech in 1993,
> some of which were transcribed with the same heavy (purported) Irish
> dialect traits.  Jesse, did you have this one?

Yes, this was in the article (and HDAS).

Jesse


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:18:28 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:18:28 EDT
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.101828.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:15,  George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
quoted:

>This was a series of stories in the LATimes from November 14, 1914 and
after.  The >headline to the original story was:
>LONG BEACH UNCOVERS "SOCIAL VAGRANT" CLAN.
>Thirty Men Heavily Fined or Given County-jail Sentences -- Church and
Business >men Included in List of Guilty Ones who, Police Say They Have Evidence to
Show, >were Organized for Immoral Purposes.  [from the story:] Officers Warren
and Brown >say that Lowe unfolded to them before his arrest a story of the
existence of a >society of "social vagrants," called the "606," whose members
were all men and >who met weekly.  ***  At the functions of this peculiar
society all the members, on >arriving, changed street clothes for kimonos, silk
underware and hosiery, and some >wore women's wigs.  The members made up with
powder and paint as for the stage, >according to the recital by the officers, and
the orgies were attented by at least fifty >at each meeting.

>Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1914, section II, p. 8  I do not find
"social >vagrant" in the on-line OED.

>[A police officer testifies:]  [Lowe] came [into the room] again, while I
was lying on >the bed.  He asked me if I had ever heard of the Six-O-Six Club
and the Ninety-six >Club.  I said I had not.  He said that the Ninety-six Club
was the best; that it was >composed of the 'queer' people, that got together
every week.  I asked Lowe why >they called it the Ninety-six Club, and he said
someting about turning the letters >around, before and behind.  He said that
the members sometimes spent hundreds >of dollars on silk gowns, hosiery, etc.,
in which they dressed at sessions of this >club.  He said that at these 'drags'
the 'queer' people have a good time, but no one >could get in without being
introduced by a member in good standing.

M-W, both 10th and 11th Collegiates, dates "606" as 1910.  "606" is one of
the names of the drug arsphenamine, the first drug specific against
syphilis---it refers to it being the 606th drug tested for activity against syphilis.

Is it possible that this group of transvestites named their organization "The
Anti-Syphilis Club"?

M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.  In any case, you have an
indirect antedating, via the reversal to "96", of the sexual meaning of "69".

In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the French term
"soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
what was really a piece of pornography?

>HDAS has "drag", noun, 4b, "Homosex., a party held for transvestites and
male >homosexuals", with quotations from 1927 (2), 1930, 1933, &c.  It has
"ninety-six", >"Homosex., homosexual anal intercourse", with quotations from 1925,
1949, and >"1947-51".  The 1949 passage reads "California term for reciprocal
anal >intercourse".

I find it difficult to believe that "reciprocal anal intercourse" is
physically possible.

                   - James A. Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:25:26 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:25:26 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <187.1f58710f.2c9c6a34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.102526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Sep 19, 2003 at 10:18:28AM -0400, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
> of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
> second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.  In any case, you have an
> indirect antedating, via the reversal to "96", of the sexual meaning of "69".
>
> In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
> case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the French term
> "soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
> lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
> what was really a piece of pornography?

OED cites _soixante-neuf_ to 1888, though I think I've since found
earlier evidence. We have consistent evidence for the use of the
French term in English.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 14:33:40 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:33:40 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.093340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just wondered if anyone's ever heard or knows the origins of the
expression 'Japanese fire drill"-- which, when I was younger, was a
prank teens did-- they'd stop the car, get out, run around the car and
get back in again, much to the annoyance of motorists behind them.

Just curious.

Patti Kurtz
Assistant professor, English
Minot State University
--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 14:50:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:50:15 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.105015.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.

Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.  The
actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied in a
1942-5 cite.

I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
the car.

SC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 10:33 AM
Subject: Japanese fire drill


> Just wondered if anyone's ever heard or knows the origins of the
> expression 'Japanese fire drill"-- which, when I was younger, was a
> prank teens did-- they'd stop the car, get out, run around the car and
> get back in again, much to the annoyance of motorists behind them.
>
> Just curious.
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Assistant professor, English
> Minot State University
> --
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
> Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape!
> http://shopnow.netscape.com/
>


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Fri Sep 19 14:50:23 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:50:23 -0700
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <200309191418.h8JEIgW8007834@mtac2.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.075023.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote in the middle of a
fascinating posting:

>In 1969 (of course) I saw a book in which mutual oral-genital sex (in this
>case, between women) was referred to not as "sixty-nine" but by the
>French term
>"soixante-neuf".  Is the French term widely used in English?  (Perhaps among
>lesbians?)  Or (my suspicion) was the author trying to add a high-brow tone to
>what was really a piece of pornography?

I remember reading the French phrase in Harlan Ellison's collection
of essays in television criticism _The Glass Teat_ (1970), with an
implication in the context of heterosexual activity. A man was
certainly involved, and I don't recall any hint of homosexuality in
the passage; if the memory of my libidinous teenage reading is
correct the context was a description of an interview with a champion
skier in which the interviewer stressed in a fashion interpreted by
HE as lewd the skier's practice of sticking his tongue out while
going down the slopes in competition. I believe the skier was
European - Swiss? French? it *has* been over 30 years! - and his
nationality may have been a factor is HE's choice of vocabulary.

It's an appallingly small sample to go by and my example may be
tainted by a French connection, but perhaps the phrase picked up in
popularity at that time?

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:03:32 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:03:32 EDT
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.110332.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
quotes inter alia:


> Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto woman,
> who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
> *The negro term used for _white_.
>   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
> citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.

Any connectin to the word "buckaroo"?

>
> Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
> conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib,
> nor
> Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves,
> who
> proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
> one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> replies--"_Me
> neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
>   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)

Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or something,
for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in the
dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.


>
> Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
> inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied;
> breakfast,
> dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part the
> same
> throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn, with
> a
> small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was
> given to
> each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly worn
> out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes, and
> sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is, commonly,
> issued as the weekly supply;...

What is "Guinea corn"?  It can't be maize, listed as "an occasional change".

Also, what is an "eddoe"? (also occurs in the next paragraph)

> Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one of
> their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
> inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds of
> vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very high
> with
> capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called
> squashes, is
> much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential, and
> held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the
> slaves of
> the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters, but
> they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the eddoe.

"cassda" is a typo for "cassada" (the spelling used in the next paragraph)?

> Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of bread,
> and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which
> loses
> its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat like
> the
> essence used under the name of soy.

The reference to "poisonous" quality makes it fairly certain that "cassada"
is cassava, also called manioc.


> Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
> multitudes of fruits.

water-lemons?  Shouldn't that be "water-melons"?


> Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food of
> the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but
> (Pg.
> 423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare, and of
> very delicate pork.

If a laba resembles a hare, then is is possible the word comes from the
French "lapin" (rabbit)?

          - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:16:58 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:16:58 EDT
Subject: Laba
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.111658.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try Googling on +laba+Guyana.

from URL <A HREF="http://westhobbsstreetchurchofchrist.org/Missions/Guyana/guyana_report_jul_2002.htm">
http://westhobbsstreetchurchofchrist.org/Missions/Guyana/guyana_report_jul_2002.htm</A>

"We had another good meal at the La Caribe? tonight. Rusty has even mentioned 
that he may be going for the Laba sometime? this week, Jimmy Dunn had it on 
one of his trips. In case you do not know? what a Laba is?. Imagine a rat and 
then multiply the size by 20. It is a? rodent the size if a cocker spaniel. I?m 
thinking this must have been a dare? by Jimmy. I personally seem to be 
leaning towards the chicken. It?s hard to? beat good yardbird!"

         - James A. Landau



From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 19 15:34:51 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:34:51 EDT
Subject: Laba
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.113451.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

URL <A HREF="http://amazonas.rds.org.co/libros/48/Texto.htm">http://amazonas.rds.org.co/libros/48/Texto.htm</A>   (in Spanish)

The "laba" is better known in English as the "agouti".  It is the Agouti paca
of Family Agoutidae.

In Venezuela it is called "lapa" or "laba", in Columbia "boruga", in Brazil
"paca", in Guyana "labba" [apparently spelled with only one "b" in tourist
restaurants], and in Panama "conejo pintado".

Barry Popik may or may not be interested in the photographs on this Web site,
but I am sure he will be glad to know that laba meat is 19.56 percent protein
and 7.53 percent fat.

     - James A. Landau


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 16:02:46 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:02:46 -0400
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.120246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RHDAS suggest that "buckaroo" comes from the Spanish "vaquero", not from any
African language, and cites AS   XVII 10-15, XXXV 51-55, and LIII 4951, LIV
151-153.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)


> In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
> quotes inter alia:
>
>
> > Pg. 245:  The hostess of the tavern is, usually, a black, or mulatto
woman,
> > who has been the favored enamorata of some _backra_* man;...
> > *The negro term used for _white_.
> >   (OED has "buckra," defined as "A white man (in Black speech)."  The
> > citations are 1794 Buckro, then 1833 buccra.
>
> Any connectin to the word "buckaroo"?
>
> >
> > Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the
sentiment
> > conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither
Charib,
> > nor
> > Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the
slaves,
> > who
> > proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!
Ask
> > one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> > replies--"_Me
> > neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
> >   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)
>
> Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or
something,
> for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in
the
> dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.
>
>
> >
> > Pg. 115:  The food of the negroes is issued to them weekly, under the
> > inspection of the manager.  It is very simple and but little varied;
> > breakfast,
> > dinner, and supper being similar to each other, and for the most part
the
> > same
> > throughout the year.  It consists mostly of Guinea (Pg. 116--ed.) corn,
with
> > a
> > small bit of salt meat--or salt fish.  Formerly a bunch of plantains was
> > given to
> > each slave as the weekly allowance; but the plantain walks being mostly
worn
> > out, this is become an expensive provision.  Rice, maize, yams, eddoes,
and
> > sweet potatoes form an occasional change, but the Guinea corn is,
commonly,
> > issued as the weekly supply;...
>
> What is "Guinea corn"?  It can't be maize, listed as "an occasional
change".
>
> Also, what is an "eddoe"? (also occurs in the next paragraph)
>
> > Pg. 117:  A mess of pottage, or very hot soup, called pepper-pot, is one
of
> > their favorite dishes, and one indeed which is generally esteemed by the
> > inhabitants, and by strangers.  It is prepared by stewing various kinds
of
> > vegetables with a bit of salt meat, or salt fish, and seasoning it very
high
> > with
> > capsicum, or some species of the red pepper.  The vegetables, called
> > squashes, is
> > much used in these pepper pots.  Bread, which is esteemed so essential,
and
> > held as the staff of life by the people of Europe, is unknown among the
> > slaves of
> > the West Indies: nor, indeed, is it in common use among their masters,
but
> > they find very excellent substitutes in the yam, the cassda, and the
eddoe.
>
> "cassda" is a typo for "cassada" (the spelling used in the next
paragraph)?
>
> > Pg. 257:  Cassada cake and roasted plantains were served instead of
bread,
> > and with our fowls we had a sauce prepared from the cassada juice, which
> > loses
> > its poisonous quality by boiling and evaporation, and becomes somewhat
like
> > the
> > essence used under the name of soy.
>
> The reference to "poisonous" quality makes it fairly certain that
"cassada"
> is cassava, also called manioc.
>
>
> > Pg. 361:  We had afterwards pines, shaddocks, melons, water-lemons, and
> > multitudes of fruits.
>
> water-lemons?  Shouldn't that be "water-melons"?
>
>
> > Pg. 422:  ..also a Laba, whose flesh is esteemed the most delicious food
of
> > the country.  In appearance this animal somewhat resembles the hare, but
> > (Pg.
> > 423--ed.)  its meat approaches nearer to a mixed flavour of the hare,
and of
> > very delicate pork.
>
> If a laba resembles a hare, then is is possible the word comes from the
> French "lapin" (rabbit)?
>
>           - James A. Landau
>


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 17:42:30 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:42:30 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309191049.1b3f6b17732e0@rly-na02.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.124230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:

>It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
>called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
>
>Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.  The
>actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied in a
>1942-5 cite.
>
>I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
>the car.
>
>
>
I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."

Thanks.

Patti


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 17:49:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:49:16 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.134916.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I guess the next question I would have is "when" did you grow up in
Pittsburgh and hear the word.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Japanese fire drill


> sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:
>
> >It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
> >called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
> >
> >Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.
The
> >actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied
in a
> >1942-5 cite.
> >
> >I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
> >the car.
> >
> >
> >
> I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
> Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
> Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>
> Thanks.
>
> Patti
>


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Sep 19 17:50:07 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:50:07 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
In-Reply-To: <187.1f58710f.2c9c6a34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.135007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 19 Sep 2003, at 10:18, James A. Landau wrote:

> M-W 10 and 11 both date "sixty-nine" as from 1924.  In an apparent violation
> of policy, the first sense is for the number but the 1924 date refers to the
> second sense, that of mutual oral-genital sex.

A violation of policy, yes, resulting from a dater's error -- evidently
made twice!  Thanks for pointing this out, Jim.  I'll fix it asap.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Sep 19 17:54:48 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:54:48 -0400
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
In-Reply-To: <16f.23e7449c.2c9c74c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.135448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:03 AM 9/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:23:47 EDT,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
>quotes inter alia:
>
>
> >
> > Pg. 76: This sense of distinction is strongly manifested in the sentiment
> > conveyed by the vulgar expression so common in the island--"neither Charib,
> > nor
> > Creole, but true Barbadian," and which is participated even by the slaves,
> > who
> > proudly arrogate a superiority above the negroes of the other islands!  Ask
> > one of them if he was imported, or is a Creole, and he immediately
> > replies--"_Me
> > neder Chrab, nor Creole, Massa!--me troo Barbadian born_."
> >   ("Charib" and "Chrab" for Carib?--ed.)
>
>Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or something,
>for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in the
>dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.

Cf. Bajan, Cajun, Injun, immejate (=immediate)--very common in British
English-derived dialects, and then adopted by others as accepted usages or
for mocking/stereotyping (Cajun, Injun).


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Sep 19 19:59:50 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:59:50 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309191348.243f6b4167f2@rly-na03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.145950.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry-- I lived in Pittsburgh in the 1960's and 70's  and was in high
school during the early 70's

sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Sam Clements <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Japanese fire drill
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I guess the next question I would have is "when" did you grow up in
>Pittsburgh and hear the word.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:42 PM
>Subject: Re: Japanese fire drill
>
>
>
>
>>sclements at NEO.RR.COM wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>It almost certainly was "Chinese fire drill" in most of the US.  If you
>>>called it "Japanese fire drill" it might be related to where you lived.
>>>
>>>Using "Chinese" as a derogatory adjective goes back to the late 1800's.
>>>
>>>
>The
>
>
>>>actual term "Chinese fire drill" is cited in RHDAS in 1952, but implied
>>>
>>>
>in a
>
>
>>>1942-5 cite.
>>>
>>>I called it that in 1961, when we would get out at a light and run around
>>>the car.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
>>Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
>>Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Patti
>>
>>
>>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 20:04:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:04:15 -0400
Subject: Chinese Fire Drill antedating(1946)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.160415.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED doesn't seem to list this term.  Of course, I could be wrong.
M-W doesn't list it either.

RHDAS has 1952(Leon Uris).  They have an indirect cite from "1942-45" which
has the same meaning but says "fouled up like a Filipino at fire-drill."

>From June 5, 1946, The Coshocton(OH) Tribune, p.8 (the sports page--ed.)

     "As far as Burton was concerned, everything was fouled up like a
Chinese fire drill as Hogan finished with his plus 51 to lead Lloyd
Mangrum."

SC


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Sep 19 20:08:20 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:08:20 -0700
Subject: Caribbean food (Allsopp books); Notes on West Indies (1806)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.130820.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Considering that "Bajan" is the common short form, or nickname, or
something,
> for "Barbadan", it is possible that palatalization occurs more often in
the
> dialect of Barbados than in other English-speaking areas.
>
How about Cajun<Acadian and educate?
Fritz


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:24:53 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:24:53 -0400
Subject: Minor antedating of Chinese Checkers(1937)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.172453.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED doesn't list, as far as I could find.
M-W says 1938.
I couldn't find any antedating in the archive.

>From the Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram, December 7, 1937,  p. 4:

     "Chinese Checkers furnished the entertainment of the evening and Mr.
Schouherr was presented with many fine gifts."

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:37:05 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:37:05 -0400
Subject: "haggies" from a 2000 posting about the Bronx
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.173705.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry posted some terms from a Bronx lexicon which he found in a Barnes and
Noble.  No date, etc.

The term that intrigued me was "Haggies."  He cited it thusly from the book:

     25.  Haggies or No Haggies...When someone bought a box of candy, you
would
yell haggies and he would have to share with you unless that person had
shouted no haggies first

    "Haggies" is, unfortunately, not in DARE.  It is the rare term that's
not
found on ANY of my search engines (Nexis, Dow Jones, Alta Vista, Lycos,
Infoseek, Deja News, et al.).  Someone from the Bronx had once asked me
about
"haggies."

There were a few replies but no answer.

I first learned of "Heggy's" candy from Cleveland, OH. when I moved up here
in the 1970's.  I wonder if there is a connection?  I know it's reaching.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Sep 19 21:46:18 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:46:18 -0400
Subject: Minor antedating of Chinese Checkers(1937)
In-Reply-To: <200309192124.h8JLO4u07138@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.174618.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Sam Clements wrote:

> OED doesn't list, as far as I could find.
> M-W says 1938.
>
> >From the Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram, December 7, 1937,  p. 4:
>      "Chinese Checkers furnished the entertainment of the evening and Mr.
> Schouherr was presented with many fine gifts."

Here's an earlier citation:

1936 _N.Y. Times_ 22 Mar. 11  Ching Gong (Chinese checkers) provides
checkers with a fast moving twist, which either 2 or 3 people can play.
Get all your men in the opposite triangle bearing your clor by moves and
jumps over any men on the board, and in the same position as the original
set-up.

(There are 1922 and 1923 articles in the _Los Angeles Times_ that describe
mah jongg as "Chinese checkers.")

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Sep 19 21:37:44 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:37:44 -0400
Subject: confirmation of apartheid (1917)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.173744.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I pass along the following quotation.  I am looking for confirmation.

The word apartheid was coined by General Smuts at the Savoy Hotel, London,
on May 27, 1917, but was not much used until 1947 when Dr Malan, the then
prime minister of South Africa, was looking for a word to soften the edge
of _segregasie_, segregation.  Terry Coleman, "The creed of Africa's race
apart," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_, Jan. 6, 1985, p 8

Thanks for any help in confirming this account.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Fri Sep 19 22:51:32 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:32 -0700
Subject: Googits
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.155132.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just thought I should mention the occurrence of "Googit", a Google hit.
Google seems to give only two hits, one without a capital "g", for this
meaning.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 20 00:37:56 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:37:56 EDT
Subject: Talk Like a Pirate Day
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.203756.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone mentioned that today is Talk Like a Pirate Day?

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/

the site includes an automatic English-to-Pirate Translator:

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/translator.html

I ran into difficulties with the translator. Maybe because too many people
are trying to use it today.
- Allan Metcalf


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep 20 00:41:16 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:41:16 -0400
Subject: Googits
In-Reply-To: <006501c37f00$9640c2e0$d8b0fa43@Barrett>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.204116.0400.>

> Just thought I should mention the occurrence of "Googit", a
> Google hit.
> Google seems to give only two hits, one without a capital
> "g", for this
> meaning.

The folks on my site's discussion board use "googlit," but this seems to be
confined to that discussion group only. Google gives two English language
hits for "googlit," both from my discussion forum.

There is also one Google hit on "to googlit" as a contraction for the verb
phrase "to google it".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 20 02:37:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:37:56 EDT
Subject: Tuna, Clams Casino in SAVEUR (Oct. 2003)
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.223756.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The October 2003 SAVEUR (at my local supermarket newsstand, next to
articles about the heartbreak of Jennifer Lopez), has a cover story "WHY WE LOVE
CANNED TUNA."  Alas, it was a short article for a cover story, and it wasn't
written by Andrew Smith.  No dates were provided for "tuna" or "Tuna-Noodle
Casserole."
   I e-mailed New Zealand's Papers Past and asked for its first citation for
"tuna."  You can pull up the old New Zealand newspapers, but how do you
conduct searches?  Maybe Fred Shapiro has mastered this thing and can tell me his
first "tuna" from Australia/New Zealand, or maybe someone from Oz can tell
"tuna"?
   SAVEUR's cover mentions a story of "Sure Bet CLAMS CASINO."  I thought it
a sure bet that it would miss my work on "clams casino."  Of course, it missed
my work on "clams casino."


MISC.:
   I've posted some work on "Not!"...No more parking tickets, please, for the
rest of my life?


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Sep 20 02:39:13 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:39:13 -0500
Subject: glurge
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.213913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From http://www.snopes.com/glurge/:
What is glurge? Think of it as chicken soup with several cups of sugar
mixed in: It's supposed to be a method of delivering a remedy for what
ails you by adding sweetening to make the cure more appealing, but the
result is more often a sickly-sweet concoction that induces
hyperglycemic fits.

In ordinary language, glurge is the sending of inspirational (often
supposedly "true") tales that conceal much darker meanings than the
uplifting moral lessons they purport to offer, and that undermine their
messages by fabricating and distorting historical fact in the guise of
offering a "true story."


--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Sep 20 03:13:03 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:13:03 -0400
Subject: number dating
Message-ID: <FRI.19.SEP.2003.231303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to establish when dates such as December 25, 1941, started to
be written as 12/25/41.  Any leads would be appreciated.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Sep 20 20:59:52 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:59:52 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309161308350.30674-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.165952.0400.>

I spent a good part of today leafing through the 1950-51 issues of "Aviation
Week" (the zine isn't digitized this far back) looking for references to
Murphy's Law and paying special attention to advertisements. I found
nothing, not even ads based on a similar theme. I could have missed
something, but I don't think so.

I did find a short article on one of Stapp's rocket sled tests in early
1950. There was no mention of anything resembling the famous maxim. This
article could, however, been generated by the same press conference that
gave birth to the maxim.

National coverage by major media of Stapp's tests didn't really begin until
1954 though. This makes me wonder if the 1949 date is not off by a few years
and the infamous press conference was not in fact until 1954. I found the
following quote in a wire service article, "Rocket Sled Ride a Black and Red
Blur," penned by Stapp from 29 Dec 1954--appearing on page 4 of the
Washington Post the next day:

"But I have learned to rely on the engineers and mechanics to take care of
everything foreseeable and to accept the unforeseen and unknown as the
payoff part of the experiement."

This is the closest I've come to a contemporary account of Stapp's tests
that expresses anything even thematically similar to Murphy's Law.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Fred Shapiro
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:41 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Murphy's Law, from the Horse's Mouth (?)
>
>
> Several years Barry Popik undertook magnificent research into
> the origins
> of "Murphy's Law."  He travelled around the country, looked at key
> sources, and was unable to find any documentation of the "Law" earlier
> than 1955.  His research was so extensive that he was able to
> suggest that
> the standard account of the "Law" being coined at Edwards Air
> Force Base
> in 1949 was problematic since the supposed 1949 coinage seemed to have
> left no trace in sources where one would have thought there would be a
> trace.
>
> I have no "smoking gun" to offer proving the standard
> account.  However, I
> have just spent a half hour talking on the phone to George
> Nichols, the
> project manager who, according to the standard account, "developed the
> maxim from a remark made by a colleague, Captain E. Murphy" (Concise
> Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs).  The salient points of the
> conversation
> are as follows:
>
> 1. Nichols, although in his early 80s, was extremely sharp and his
> memories seemed to be clear.  Throughout the conversation he
> stuck to the
> standard account in a consistent manner.  Although I am quite
> impressed by
> Barry's evidence (or, rather, nonevidence) and know as well
> as anyone how
> prevalent etymological misconceptions and mistaken memories
> are, I have to
> conclude that Nichols' story is most likely factual.
>
> 2. Nichols says that the original formulation was "If it can
> happen, it
> will happen."  This was not what Murphy said, it was what Nichols said
> after Murphy made some statement about someone else's error.
> Nichols did
> not regard "If anything can go wrong, it will" as the
> original Murphy's
> Law.  He says "If it can happen, it will happen" was the
> version used in
> the 1950 press conference.
>
> 3. Nichols dismissed any later statements by Edward A. Murphy, Jr. as
> attempts by Murphy, three decades later, to assert his own
> importance as
> Murphy's Law became famous in the late 1970s.  According to Nichols,
> Murphy played a minor role in the original coinage.
>
> 4. I pressed Nichols as to where there might be some contemporaneous
> documentation of the press conference or its aftermath.  He
> said that such
> documentation would be in advertisements in technical journals in the
> months after the press conference.
>
> That's it.  It seems that the most promising avenue for
> future research is
> in technical journals dated 1950.
>
> P.S.  I have previously posted that I have found a 1941 version of
> Murphy's Law, not from an aviation or engineering context.
> This is true,
> but I want to emphasize that this is a similar quotation, not
> really part
> of the main story of Murphy's Law.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY
> OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 20 23:25:17 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:25:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "knucklehead" (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.192517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W says 1942.
HDAS has 1942.  (They DO have a 1939 cite that uses "knuckleheaded," but
it's ambiguous:  "And you're just a knuckle-headed farmer girl."  More
below).
OED has 1944

>From the Nevada State Journal of June 26, 1938:

     "...Wm. "Bill" Hopper, president of the First National Bank of Nevada,
has decided to drag the novice or greenpea out into the open where all may
take a look and to the tune of a beautiful trophy and fancy cash prize, but
"ye knucklehead" must pay an entry fee to show his skill in the arena, and
natural skill it must be...."

It certainly predates a simple military explanation.  Implies a novice
rather than a stupid person.  Might the HDAS cite for "knuckle-headed farmer
girl" imply a novice/greenhorn rather than a dumbbell?

What do you make of this?

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 00:47:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:47:15 -0400
Subject: Murphy; Veggie (1955); Cream Cyclone; Burritoria
Message-ID: <SAT.20.SEP.2003.204715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'll probably go to the Library of Congress this Thursday.  I've requested the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER (1872-1875) and the GALVESTON NEWS (1840s-1850s).  I'm going for the whole enchilada.  The LOC was closed the past few days because of the storm.
   I've got a lot more Trinidad/South American material that I'll get to in another post.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MURPHY & AVIATION WEEK

   No early "Murphy's Law" was found in AVIATION WEEK?  I'm not surprised.  The LOS ANGELES TIMES project is up to the 1930s.  Just take it easy and wait for the 1950s.  Edwards AFB news should hit this newspaper before the NEW YORK TIMES.
   Oh, those wonderful hours spent reading AVIATION WEEK...

Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:10:12 EDT
Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List <ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu>
From:         "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
Subject:      Jump?  How high?; More "Murphy"
Comments: To: ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

MURPHY'S LAW (continued)

   Nothing is ever easy.
   Some checking was done for the 5 January 1950 alleged date for the John
Paul Stapp news conference.  Nothing comes up in the LOS ANGELES TIMES,
AVIATION WEEK, and AMERICAN AVIATION.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VEGGIES

   Merriam-Webster's 11th gives 1955 for "veggie."  It's here in 1955 on Ancestry.com, but it means "vegetarians"--the people who eat vegetables, not the vegetables themselves.  Make the entry a double veggie.


    18 August 1955, NEWPORT DAILY NEWS (Newport, Rhode Island), pg.8, col. 4:
 Robert Ruark
 _The Vegetable Way of Life_
    The International Vegetarian Union has been meeting in Paris, and I see that my friend Master Arthur Buchwald has done his usual fine, snide, deadpan job on the carrot-munchers.
 (...)
    As a keen aficionado of what the (Col. 5--ed.) veggies call "vulture food," which is to say meat, I manage to control my emotion over the plight of a four-year-old steer which has been cannibalizing innocent corn for some weeks in a stockyard pen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREAM CYCLONE

   I walked down Eighth Avenue and ate at Jerry's Kitchen, but didn't have enough room for the "Cream Cyclone."  I thought there would be other Google hits for a "lemonade and vanilla ice cream" drink, but there doesn't seem to be.

http://www.gotham2go.com/menus/jerryskitchen.html
Cream Cylcone (lemonade with vanilla ice cream)... 3.00

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BURRITORIA

   A "burritoria" is also on Eighth Avenue.  "Burritoria" on the Kitchen Market's sign, but doesn't appear to be on its web site.
   This was probably not coined by Marian Burros.

http://www.kitchenmarket.com
BURRITORIA--33 Google hits


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 07:40:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:40:33 EDT
Subject: Taco Salad (1961)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.034033.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Cobb Salad" is not yet in the LOS ANGELES TIMES database (through 1932).
It's here in this 1961 article with "taco salad," but the salads' origins are
not explained.
   "Taco Salad" has an incredible 45,200 Google hits.  It's not in the
OED...This is about a decade before all the other Ancestry hits (1970s+).  There's
one "taco salad" allegedly in "1960," but the top of the page clearly has
"1986."


   31 August 1961, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, PA), pg. 3, col. 6:
_SCRIBE SAYS_
_"SALADS" BEST_
_IN CALIFORNIA_
   By BOB THOMAS
   AP Movie-Salad Writer
(...)
   In California you can get salads in abundant variety.  Even a fried salad.
 This sounds like a misnomer but it's a taco--shredded lettuce, cheese,
tomato sauce and Mexican sausage wrapped in a deep-fried tortilla.
(...)
_BROWN DERBY SPECIAL_
   The Brown Derby's special is the Cobb salad, named after bossman Bob Cobb.
 It's great for people too tired to chew, because it's all chopped fine as
confetti.
(...)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 21 11:45:22 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:45:22 -0400
Subject: Taco Salad (1961)
In-Reply-To: <172.1ff57c24.2c9eaff1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.074522.0400.>

>    In California you can get salads in abundant variety.
> Even a fried salad.
>  This sounds like a misnomer but it's a taco--shredded
> lettuce, cheese,
> tomato sauce and Mexican sausage wrapped in a deep-fried tortilla.

This doesn't sound like a "taco salad." Nor do they use those exact words.
What is being described is a plain old taco. The use of "salad" is simply a
(poor) attempt to describe it to those unfamiliar with Mexican food.


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 15:32:55 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:32:55 EDT
Subject: McKean and Fiske
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.113255.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
Dictionary  by Mark Halpern

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp</A>



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Sun Sep 21 15:53:44 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:53:44 -0700
Subject: Article on _The Chambers Dictionary_
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.085344.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1039692003

On the occasion of the recent publication of its ninth edition.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 21 16:18:52 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:18:52 -0400
Subject: McKean and Fiske
In-Reply-To: <105.3654c429.2c9f1ea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.121852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Sep 21, 2003 at 11:32:55AM -0400, Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote:
> Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> Dictionary  by Mark Halpern

Is this just advertising, or did you intend for people to discuss
it here, in which case making the text available might help?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sun Sep 21 16:39:18 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael B Quinion)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:39:18 +0100
Subject: Article on _The Chambers Dictionary_
In-Reply-To: <p06002006bb9379b0bf0f@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.173918.0100.>

> http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1039692003
>
> On the occasion of the recent publication of its ninth edition.

"We don?t include words that trivialise the language". Discuss? For
more on this new edition of Chambers, and on the recent new edition
of Collins (at which this barb is almost certainly directed) see also

 http://www.worldwidewords.org/reviews/re-fou1.htm

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Sep 21 17:35:25 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:35:25 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.133525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Might "dickhead" be a calque?  HDAS has 1962 and Merriam-Webster 1964.  However, it apparently is a much older term in Italian.  According to news reports, the Ashmolean Museum recently purchased a plate made by ceramicist Francesco Urbini in the 16th century and showing a head made up of around 50 fleshy penises.  The head is framed by a garland carrying the inscription: "Ogni homo me guarda come fosse una testa de cazi."   According to the Reuters account, this means "Every man looks at me as if I were a dickhead"; the phrase is still a common term of abuse in Italy and elsewhere, according to Reuters.  The link is

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030918/od_nm/plate_dc_1


John Baker


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 21 18:59:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:59:39 -0400
Subject: Alligators in the sewers--another piece of the puzzle?
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.145939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sorry if this isn't appropriate for this list.  I searched and found
Barry's find of a 1907 article.  But it doesn't seem as though that started
the stories.

I also read Barbara Mikkelson's article over at
http://www.snopes.com/critters/lurkers/gator.htm which was mentioned in an
earlier thread on here.

In reading over at ancestry.com, searching a column written about NY life by
"George Swan," I came across this bit of info from one of his 1933 columns:

     "Between the months of February and April, New York is seasonnally
presented with "the great alligator mystery."
    For no particular reason that anyone can verify, numerous small
alligators begin to appear where they never were before.  There is something
of the late Houdini and even the suggestion of a miracle in the phenomenon.
   Little 'gators appear in the trickling fountains of hotel lobbies; they
seem to drop from the very air into the large fish tanks of foyers and
lobbies; they suddenly commingle with snails and goldfish of public
aquariums.  Witnesses testify that at the beginning of an evening there will
be no sign of an alligator anywhere.  And in the morning---lo, there is one
of the darn things splashing about.  Suspects, called in deny any knowledge
of collusion.

   This has been going on for years.  And from one of my secret agents I
believe I have at last found an explanation.  Prankish Florida winter-goers,
inclined to practical jokes and all that,  (sic)back to friends a pet little
'gator such as can easily be purchasedd at the southern resort places; or
bring a 'gator back as a present.  Once in New York, the bathtub appears to
be about the only possible habitat at the moment.  Then the possessor, going
about places, notices fountains and pools and fish tanks in cafes and hotels
and gets a bright idea.  Feeling sorry for the alligator, he puts it in a
brief case or a week-end bag and starts out.  Standing about until no one is
looking, he slips the alligator into the fish pond and exits.
   It so happens that, in two instances, someone caught culprits in their
extraordinary hokus-pokus--but pretended not to see."

(Any misspellings are probably mine--SC)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 21 21:11:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:11:33 EDT
Subject: Huaca, Alfilerilla, Bodega, Alfalfa, Camote, Orchata,
 Pepino (1825 or 1829)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.171133.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HISTORICAL AND DESCRIPTIVE NARRATIVE
OF TWENTY YEARS' RESIDENCE IN SOUTH AMERICA
by W. B. Stevenson
in three volumes
London:  Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown and Green
1829

   NYU has the 1829 edition.  OED used the 1825 edition.
   For "verruga."  One OED citation in a three-volume work from the 1820s.
ONE!
   There's lots to record here.  No one else has gone through this work in
175 years?


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 14:  Our food chiefly consisted of fresh mutton, jirked beef, fish, or
poultry, cut into small pieces and stewed with potatoes or pompions, seasoned
with onions, garlic and cayenne pepper, or capsicum.  Out breakfast, at about
sunrise, was composed of some flour or toasted wheat, coarsely ground, or
crushed, and mixed with water, either hot or cold, as it suited the palate of the
eater.

Pg. 14:  At the lower end of the stone is generally placed a clean lamb skin,
with the wool downwards, which received the flour, called by the indians
_machica_.  Our dinner (Pg. 15--ed.) (made up of the stews or messes which I have
mentioned) was generally served at noon in calabashes, or gourds cut in two,
being three inches deep, and some of them from twelve to twenty inches in
diameter.  Our supper, which we took at eight o'clock, was milk, with _machica_, or
potatoes.
   I cannot refrain from describing a favourite preparation of milk, called
by the natives _milcow_.  Potatoes and a species of pompion, _zapallo_, were
roasted, the insides of both taken out, and kneaded together with a small
quantity of salt, and sometimes with eggs.  This paste was made into little cakes,
each about the size of a dollar, and a large quantity was put into a pot of
milk, and allowed to boil for a quarter of an hour.  I joined the indians in
considering it an excellent dish.

Pg. 17:  The principal out-door diversion among the young men is the
_palican_: this game is called by the Spaniards _chueca_, and is similar to one I have
seen in England called bandy.  Molina says it is like the _calcio_ of the
Florentines and the _orpasto_ of the Greeks.
   (OED has neither "palican" nor "chueca"--ed.)

Pg. 35:  The afternoon was spent in rambling about the neighbouring country
and picking myrtle berries, which are delicious, and called by the people
_mutillas_.  They are about the size of a large pea, of a deep red colour and of a
peculiarly sweet and aromatic flavour.  They are sometimes prepared by
crushing them in water and allowing them to ferment for a few days, which produces a
pleasant beverage called _chicha de mutilla_.  We found abundance of wild
grapes, (which though neither large nor sweet were very palatable) some few plums,
and plenty of apples, pears and peaches.  On our return to the miller's house
we were presented with _mate_, which is a substitute for tea, and is used
more or less in every part of South America, but since the present revolution it
has become less prevalent, partly because the custom of drinking tea _a la
Inglesa_ is more (Pg. 36--ed.) fashionable, and partly because a regular supply
of the herb cannot be procured from Paraguay, where it grows, and from whence
it derives its name.  The _mate_ is prepared by putting into a silver or gold
cup about a teaspoonful of the herb of Paraguay, to which are added a bit of
sugar, sometimes laid on the fire until the outside be a little burnt, a few
drops of lemon juice, a piece of lemon peel and of cinnamon, or a clove.  Boiling
water is poured in till the cup is full,...

Pg. 43:  The indians prepare the maize of winter, whilst in the green state,
by boiling the cobs, from the cores of which are taken the grain, which is
dried in the sun and kept for use.  It is called _chuchoca_, and when mixed with
some of their hashes or stews is very palatable,  Another preparation is made
by cutting the corn from the core of the green cobs, and bruising it between
two stones until it assumes the consistency of paste, to which sugar, butter
and spices, or only salt is added.  It is then divided into small portions,
which are enclosed separately within the inner leaf of the cob or ear and boiled.
These cakes are called _umitas_.  The dry boiled maize, _mote_, and the
toasted, _cancha_, are used by the indians instead of bread.  One kind of maize,
_curugua_, is much softer when roasted, and furnishes a flour lighter, whiter,
and in greater quantity than any other kind.  This meal mixed with water and a
little sugar is esteemed by all ...
   (These terms aren't in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 46:  The yellow flowered, known to us by the name of pumpkin or pompion,
and here called _zapullo_, are excellent food, whether cooked with meat as a
vegetable, or made into custard with sugar and other ingredients.  That the
gourd is a native of South America seems to be supported by several striking
circumstances.  The seeds and shells are found in the graves, or _huacas_; the
plant was universally met with among the different tribes of indians at the time
of their discovery; Almagro states that on his passage down the Maranon some
of the indians has calabashes to drink with; and lastly, those who bring their
produce from the woods of Maynas to Cusco, Quito and other places, always use
gourd shells.
   The pimento, guinea, or cayenne pepper, _capsicum_, is much cultivated and
valued by the natives, who season their food with it.  Although at first very
pungent and disagreeable, strangers gradually habituate themselves to, and
become fond of it.  There are several varieties.
   (OED has 1847 for "huaca"--ed.)

Pg. 47:  The beef is savoury, owing perhaps to the prevalence of aromatic
herbs, more particularly a species of venus' comb, called by the indians _laiqui
lahuen_, by the Spaniards _alfilerilla_; and trefoil, _gualputa_.
   (OED has 1889 for "alfilerilla"--ed.)

Pg. 53:  The whole of the provisions of an Araucanian army consists of the
_machica_, or meal of parched grain.
   (The revised OED mentions "machica" in its--1931 first citation--entry of
"maque choux"--ed.)

Pg. 66:  The ponchos, particularly those of good quality called
_balandranes_, would find a ready market in Peru or Chile.
   (OED mentions "balandran" in 1992--ed.)

Pg. 94:  Barley, maize, _garbansos_, beans, _quinua_, and lentils are also
cultivated for exportation, and yield heavy crops.  Potatoes, radishes and other
esculents, as well as all kinds of culinary vegetables and useful herbs are
raised in the gardens.  The _zapallo_ is very much and justly esteemed, being,
when green, equal to asparagus, and when ripe, similar to a good potatoe.
   (OED has 1759, then 1841 for "garbanzo"--ed.)

Pg. 96:  It is then hung on lines or poles, to dry in the sun, which being
accomplished, it si made into bundles, lashed with thongs of fresh hide, forming
a kind of network, and is ready for market.  In this operation it loses about
one third of its original weight.  The dried meat, _charqui_, finds immediate
sale at Lima, Arica, Guayaquil, Panama and other places.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1845 for "charqui"--ed.)

Pg. 98:  The _huaso_ (or laso thrower) extending the opening formed by
passing the thong through the noose, lays hold of the laso, and begins to whirl it
over his head, taking care that the opening does not close.
   ("Huaso" is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 101:  The melons and _sandias_, water melons, are also very large, and
are extremely nice, particularly the latter, to which the natives are partial.
   (OED has 1648, then 1902 for "sandia"--ed.)

Pg. 103:  The _maqui_ is another tree, bearing a fruit like a _guind_, or
wild cherry, from which a pleasant fermented beverage is made, called _theca_.
The people are fond of the fruit, and parties go into the woods to gather it.

Pg. 121:  There is a custom-house at Talcahuano, and the necessary officers
for collecting the importation and exportation duties; barracks for the
garrison belonging to the small battery, a house for the residence of the commanding
officer, a parish church, also about a hundred houses, with several large
stores, _bodegas_, for corn, wine, and other goods.
   (OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1846 for "bodega"--ed.)

Pg. 121:  The bay abounds with excellent fish; the most esteemed are the
_robalo_;...
   (OED has "rowball" from 1803, but no "robalo" citation in English--ed.)

Pg. 122:  The _corbina_ is generally about the size of the robalo, though
sometimes much larger;...
   (OED has 1787 for "curvina," then 1842 for "corvina"--ed.)

Pg. 125:  Crawfish, _camarones_, are sometimes caught of the enormous weight
of eight or nine pounds each, and are very good.
   (OED has 1880 for "camaron"--ed.)

Pg. 162:  The principal produce of the valley of Lima is sugar cane, lucern,
_alfalfa_, maize, wheat, beans, with tropical and European fruit, as well as
culinary vegetables.
   The sugar cane is almost exclusively of the creole kind: fine sugar is
seldom made from it here, but a coarse sort, called _chancaca_, is extracted, the
method if manufacturing which will hereafter be described.  The principal
part of the cane is employed in making _guarapo_;...
    (OED and M-W have 1845 for "alfalfa"--ed.)

Pg. 169:  _Camotes_, commonly called sweet potatoes, and by the Spaniards
_batatas_, are produced in great abundance, of both the yellow and purple kinds.
   (OED has 1842 for "camote"--ed.)

Pg. 169:  Although the _arracacha_ which is grown in this valley is neither
so large nor so well tasted as that which is produced in a cooler climate, it
is nevertheless an exceedingly good esculent.
   (OED has 1823, then 1832 as its two citations for "arracacha"--ed.)

Pg. 170:  The _tomate_, love apple, is very much cultivated, and is in
frequent use both in the kitchen and for confectionary, and produces a very
agreeable acid.
   Capsicum, cayenne pepper, _aji_, is abundant; I have counted nine
different sorts, the largest, _rocotos_, about the size of a turkey's egg, and the
smallest, which is the most pungent, not thicker than the quill of a pigeon's
feather; the quantity of this spice used in America is enormous; I have
frequently seen a person, particularly among the indians, eat as a relish, twenty or
thirty pods, with a little salt and a piece of bread.  One kind called _pimiento
dulce_ is made into a very delicate salad, by roasting the pods over hot
embers, taking away the outer skin, and the seeds from the inside, and seasoning
with salt, oil, and vinegar.

Pg. 225:  Pork is sold in one part; in another all kinds of salted and dried
meats, principally brought from the interior; these are _charque_, jerked
beef; _sesina_, beef salted and smoked or dried in the sun: hams, bacon, and
frozen kid from the mountains, which last is most delicate eating: there are
likewise many kinds of sausages; salt fish, principally _bacalao_ from Europe;
_tollo_, _congrio_, and corbina.  The fish market is in some seasons abundantly
supplied from the neighbouring coasts with corbina, _jureles_, mackerel, _chita_,
plaice, turbot, peje rey, lisa, anchovies, &c., and most excellent crayfish,
_camarones_, from the rivers, some of which are six or seven inches long.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1890 for "jurel"--ed.)

Pg. 227:  In the vicinity stands a _fresquera_, vender of iced lemonade,
pine-apple water, _orchata_, almond milk, pomegranate water, &c. which offer
another opportunity for gallantry.
   (OED has 1859 for "horchata"--ed.)

Pg. 300:  The walking dress of the females of all descriptions is the _saya y
manto_, which is a petticoat of velvet, satin, or stuff, generally black or
of a cinnamon colour, plaited in very small folds, and rather elastic; it sits
close to the body, and shews its shape to the utmost possible advantage.
   (OED has 1841 for "saya"--ed.)

Pg. 224:  The _Palta_, alligator pear or vegetable marrow, is sometimes
round, and sometimes pear shaped;...
   ("Palta" is not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 334:  The _pacay_ is a moderately sized tree; its fruit is contained in a
large green pod--there are several varieties--the pod of one is sometimes
more than a yard long and three inches broad.
   (OED has 1866 for "pacay"--ed.)

Pg. 335:  The _palillo_ is the delicate custard-apple, which is very sweet
and fragrant.
   ("Palillo" is not in  OED--ed.)

Pg. 337:  The _pepino_ is an egg-shaped fruit, and smells like a cucumber.
Here are several varieties, and when ripe they have a sweet but peculiar taste,
between the raw vegetable and fruit: they are considered unwholesome, and
often called _mata serranos_, mountaineer killers; because these people when they
come down to the coast east large quantities of them, on account, perhaps, of
their cheapness: they bring on intermittent fevers, dysentery, &c.  The
_pina_, pine-apple, is not cultivated in Lima;...
   (OED Additions 1993 added "pepino."  The first citation is 1890--ed.)

Pg. 340:  The inhabitants of Lima have many dishes peculiar to the place.
The Spanish _olla podrida_, called _puchero_, is found almost on every table: it
is composed of beef, mutton, fowl, ham, sausage, and smoked meats, mixed with
cassava root, sweet potatoe, cabbage, turnips and almost any vegetables, a
few peas, and a little rice--these are all well boiled together, and form the
standing family dish: bread or vermicelli soup is made from the broth.  _Lahua_
is a thick porridge from the flour of maize boiled with meat, particfularly
fresh pork or turkey, and highly seasoned with the husks of the ripe capsicum.
_Carapulca_ consists of dried potatoes, nuts, or garabansas, parched and (Pg.
341--ed.) bruised, and afterwards boiled to a thick consistency with meat,
like the lahua.  _Pepian_ is made from rice flour, and partakes of the
ingredients of the lahua and the pepian; it is a very favourite dish, and the natives
say, that on being persented to the pope by an American cook, he xclaimed,
_felice indiani, qui manducat pepiani_!  _Chupi_, which is made by cooking
potatoes, cheese and eggs together, and afterwards adding fried fish, is a favourite
dish, not only on days of abstinence, but during the whole year.  Guinea pigs,
_cuis_, make a very delicate dish; they are roasted, and afterwards stewed
with a great quantity of capsicum pods, pounded to the consistency of paste;
sometime potatoes, bruised nuts, and other ingredients are added.  This is the
favourite _picante_, and to my taste is extremely delicate.  Many more dishes,
peculiar to the country, are seen on the tables, all of which are seasoned with
a profusion of lard, and not a small quantity of garlic and capsicum.

(Just a great book.  This is getting long, so I'll end Part One here--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Sep 21 21:41:45 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:41:45 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <3F6B4006.1020908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.174145.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I hadn't thought about region affecting the name-- I grew up in
>Pittsburgh and that's what we called it-- but I wonder how being from
>Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."

Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.

I find a few instances of "Mexican fire drill" on the Web, but I've never
heard this myself.

The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
stereotype.

Almost any choice would seem more likely than "Japanese", (1) since the
Japanese have a very long tradition of very well organized fire
preparations, I believe (Japanese cities having been constructed largely of
wood and paper until recently), and of course (2) since the Japanese to
some degree received a quasi-German overly-disciplined/regimented/robotic
stereotype in the US during and following WW II.

Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.

Why Pittsburgh? Well, uh, ....

-- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Sep 21 22:33:42 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:33:42 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309211741.6863f6e1b1a274@rly-nc04.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.173342.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.
>
>I find a few instances of "Mexican fire drill" on the Web, but I've never
>heard this myself.
>
>The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
>stereotype.
>
My only thought here (and no scholarly back up for this) might be that
perhaps the name was changed to "avoid" the perceived stereotype.
Either that or I had some odd friends growing up, but I remember my
family always calling it that and my friends as well.  It wasn't until
much later that I heard "chinese fire drill."

I agree with Doug's points that using "Japanese" doesn't seem likely,
but all I can say is-- well, that's what we called it.  Maybe it was an
idiosyncrasy of my neighborhood.


--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709



"Sometimes, you just have to bow to the absurd."



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

Up the Long Ladder


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 00:38:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:38:37 EDT
Subject: Chuno, Pisco, Serrano, Tamal, Biscochos, Ramada, Algarroba,
 Cholo (1825 or 1829)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.203837.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just a great book.  This is a lot of work.  OED and Merriam-Webster owe me
free tamale.  It better be hot.
   I'm probably not going to have the energy for my Trinidad slang material,
but we'll see.  You just can't live without "blue food."


HISTORICAL AND DESCRIPTIVE NARRATIVE
OF TWENTY YEARS' RESIDENCE IN SOUTH AMERICA
by W. B. Stevenson
in three volumes
London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown and Green
1829

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 341:  I have mentioned dried potatoes--they are thus prepared: small
potatoes are boiled, peeled, and then dried in the sun, but the best are those
dried by the severe frosts on the mountains; they will keep for any length of
time, and when used require to be bruised and soaked.  If introduced as a
vegetable substance in long sea (Pg. 342--ed.) voyages, I think the potatoe thus
prepared would be found wholesome and nourishing.  The dried potatoe is sometimes
ground into flour; this is called chuno, and is used to make a kind of
porridge, either with or without meat.
   The maize, whilst green, is prepared in the same manner, by boiling the
cobs, cutting off the grains and drying them; this is called chochoca, and is
cooked like the chuno.
   Great quantities of pumpkins and gourds are eaten, and form the principal
part of the vegetable food of the poor classes; they are large, plentiful and
cheap, and will keep nearly the whole year if placed in a dry room.  Maize and
beans, _frijoles_, are in general use among the lower classes,...
    (OED has 1909 for "chuno"--ed.)

Pg. 343:  The usual breakfast hour at Lima is eight o'clock; they seldom take
more than a cup of thick chocolate with toast, and a glass of cold water
afterwards; or sometimes a little boiled mutton, fried eggs, ham, or sausage.  The
dinner hour is one o'clock.  It is a very plentiful meal, and may indeed be
considered the only one during the day; soup and _puchero_ are generally the
first dishes, the rest come to table indiscriminately, and fish is not
unfrequently the last, excepting sweetmeats, after which a glass of cold water is
always drunk.  Coffee is often brought in immediately after dinner; but in the
higher classes the company rise from table and adjourn to another room, where
coffee and liquors are placed.  Fruit is commonly introduced between the
services,...

Pg. 358:  THe principal produce of the neighbourhood of Pisco, including the
valleys of Chincha and Canete, is vines, from which about one hundred and
fifty thousand gallons of brandy are annually made.  The brandy is kept in earthen
jars, each holding about eighteen gallons.  The vessels are made in the
neighbourhood; their shape is that of an inverted cone, and the inside is coated
with a species of naptha.  The brandy, generally (Pg. 359--ed.) called pisco,
from the name of the place where it is made, is of a good flavour, and is not
coloured, like the French brandy.  One kind, made from the muscadine grape, and
called _aguardiente de Italia_, is very delicate, possessing the flavour of
Frontignac wine, and is much esteemed.
   (OED has 1849 for "pisco"--ed.)

Pg. 366:  In Chile, according to Molina, the _mager_, a species of rye, and
the _tuca_, a species of barley, were both common before the fifteenth
century;...

Pg. 367: I have enumerated five varieties of maize in Peru; one is known by
the name of _chancayano_, which has a large semi-transparent yellow grain;
another is called _morocho_, and has a small yellow grain of a horny appearance;
_amarillo_, or the yellow, has a large yellow opaque grain, and is more
farinaceous than the two former varieties: _blanco_, white; this is the colour of the
grain, which is large, and contains more farina than the former; and
_cancha_, or sweet maize.  The last is only cultivated in the colder climates of the
_sierra_, mountains; it grows about two feet high, the cob is short, and the
grains large and white: when green it is very bitter; but when ripe and roasted
it is particularly sweet, and so tender, that it may be reduced to flour
between the fingers.  In this roasted state it constitutes the principal food of
the _serranos_, mountaineers, of several provinces.
   (OED has 1858 for "serrano."  "Cancha" and "morocho" and "chancayano" are
not in OED--ed.)

Pg. 369:  After the paste is made from the boiled maize it is seasoned with
salt and an abundance of (Pg. 370--ed.) capsicum, and a portion of lard is
added: a quantity of this paste is then laid on a piece of plaintain leaf, and
some meat is put among it, after which it is rolled up in the leaf, and boiled
for several hours.  This kind of pudding is called _tamal_, a _Quichua_ word,
which inclines me to believe, that it is a dish known to the ancient inhabitants
of the country.
   Sweet puddings are made from the green corn, by cutting the grains from
the cob, bruising them, and adding sugar and spices, after which they are boiled
or baked.  _Choclo_, being the Quichua name for the green cobs, these
puddings, if boiled in the leaves that envelope the cob, are called _choclo tandas_,
bread of green maize, and also _umitas_.
   This useful grain is prepared for the table in many diffierent ways, and
excellent cakes and rusks are made from the flour, procured from the grain by
various means.  A thick kind of porridge, called _sango_, is made by boiling
the flour in water, which constitutes the principal food of the slaves on the
farms and plantations.  ANother sort, similar to hasty-pudding, is common in
many places, but particularlyh in Lima; it is called _masamorra_, and the people
of Lima are often ironically denominated _masamorerros_, eaters of masamorra.
The grain is bruised and (Pg. 371--ed.)  mixed with water; it is thus allowed
to ferment until it become acid, when it is boiled, and sweetened with sugar.
 It resembles Scotch sowins.
   A great quantity of maize is laso made into a fermented beverage, called
_chicha_.  The grain is allowed to germinate, and is completely malted; it is
then boiled with water, and the liquor ferments like ale or porter; but no
other ingredients are added to it.
   Chicha is the favourite drink of all the indians, and when well made it is
very intoxicating.
   (OED has 1856 for "tamal."  Merriam-Webster has 1854 for "tamale"--ed.)

Pg. 372:  Two kinds of chicha are usually made from the same grain--the
first, called claro, is the water in which the malt has been infused; this is drawn
off, and afterwards boiled.  In taste it has some resemblance to cider.  The
second kind is made by boiling the grain with the water for several hours, it
is then strained and fermented, and is called neto; the residue or sediment
found in the bottom of the jars is used in fermenting the dough for bread, which
when made of maize is called _arepa_; and that of wheat, in the Quichua
language, _tanda_.

Pg. 372:  Garcilaso de la Vega relates, that the manufacture of intoxicating
liquors, particularly the _vinapu_ and _sora_, was prohibited by the Incas;...

Pg. 373:  Its (Chancay--ed.) market is abundant in fish, flesh-meat,
vegetables, and fruit: of the latter considerable quantities are carried to Lima; it
is also famous for delicate sweet cakes, called _biscochos_.
   (Google also for "bizcocho"--ed.)


VOLUME TWO
Pg. 8:  The maguey is very common;...
Pg. 8:  Before the flower stem makes its appearance, if the heart of the
plant be cut out, and a hollow place made in the centre, it will be filled in ten
or twelve hours with a thick syrup, which may be used instead of sugar; when
this is mixed with water and fermented, it forms the favourite Mexican beverage
_pulque_;...

Pg. 9:  In some gardens the _achote_ is cultivated; this tree is seldom above
ten feet high, the leaves are heart-shaped, and the seeds are enclosed in a
prickly capsule about three inches long; they are covered with an unctuous
matter, of the vermilion colour, and are thrown into hot water, and afterwards
strained, when the liquor is boiled to the consistency of paste, and forms the
annotta dye.  The natives often use it as a spice, or as a colouring matter for
their food.
   (OED has 1796, then 1866 for "achiote" or "achote"--ed.)

Pg. 9:  _Mani_ is also cultivated; the plant is very froniferous, is about
two feet high, and has white flowers;...
   (The revised OED has 1819, then 1846 for "mani"--ed.)

Pg. 20:  When an indian celebrates the feast of some particular saint, he
provides a dinner for all who choose to partake it;...
   The second course of dishes is generally filled with fowls stewed with
some kind of vegetables, but not picante, (Pg. 21--ed.) seasoned with _agi_
(Spelled _aji_ elswhere--ed.), capsicum pods; after this course follows a _pepian_,
consisting of turkey stewed with rice flour, water, onions, garlic, cayenne
pepper, and lard; sometimes peje reyes, smelts, merely laid for five or six
hours in the juice of sour oranges, and green capsicum pods are brought in; and,
lastly, the favourite dish of cuyes, guinea pigs, highly seasoned with cayenne
pepper.  Between each course the chicha circulates freely, and the company
often rise pretty merry; after which they mount their horses and call for the
stirrup cup; the mistress of the feast then goes out with a large pongo,
calabash of chicha, and distributes a small one to each of the guests, who frequently
joke with her about love affairs;...

Pg. 28:  I inquired into the cause of this penury, and was informed by the
cura, that their vicinity to the coast allowed them, if they could purchase a
mule, to fetch small quantities of brown sugar, _chancaca_, and fruit, and to
take them to Chiquian and other towns in the interior, to sell,...

Pg. 44:  After enjoying my nap for about an hour, I awoke, and found an
agreeable repast just ready--a _salona_, mutton slightly salted and smoked, and
equal in flavour to venison, had been roasted, an agreeable sauce of the green
pods of capsicum, _aji verde_, in vinegar had been prepared, and they were
served up with some excellent roasted potatoes;...

Pg. 136:  ...a roasted kid hot, boiled turkey cold, collared pig, ham and
tongue, with butter, cheese and olives, besides which, wine and brandy, _pisco_,
and several _liquers_ were on the table;...

Pg. 181:  Attached to it are four chapels of ease, called _ramadas_;...
   (OED has 1869 for "ramada."  Merriam-Webster has 1853--ed.)

Pg. 183:  The manufacture of sweetmeats consists chiefly of marmalade and
jelly, made from quinces, guavas, and limes.  It is packed in chip boxes, each
holding about two pounds, which sell at half a dollar each;...

Pg. 184:  The _algarroba_, carob tree, grows in the vicinity of Lambayeque in
great abundance, and is of such utility, that a law exists to prevent the
owners from cutting them down;...
   (OED has 1845 for "algarroba," from Charles Darwin--ed.)

Pg. 186:  From the pods of the algarroba the indians make chicha, by merely
infusing them in water, straining it, and allowing it to ferment: at the
expiration of three or four days it is very palatable, and if proper attention were
paid to it, I believe that a very delicate wine would be procured.  Small
cakes called _arepas_ are sometimes made by the indians from the pods reduced to
powder; they are certainly not unpalatable, though very coarse.

Pg. 190:  I drank some of theirs, and ate some sweet cakes, which they called
_alfajor_; they were very good.

Pg. 210:  The market of Guayaquil is but indifferently supplied with flesh
meat, although the horned cattle is well fed on the _savannas_ and
_gamalotales_.  Before the beef comes to market it is deprived of all its fat, and cut into
shreds about an inch thick, called _tasajo_; the fat is melted and sold as
lard for culinary purposes, but this however might be easily remedied if the
inhabitants would come to a resolution not to buy the beef in such a mangled
state.  Very fine ribs of beef, called chalonas, are salted and dreid in the
province of Monte Christe, and brought to this market; they are very fat, and of an
excellent flavour.  The quantity of salt used in curing them being small, the
meat is not too salt to be roasted.

Pg. 211:  The supply of fish is tolerably abundant, but generally speaking it
is not good; the exceptions are the _lisa_, a kind of mullet, the _vieja_,
old wofe; _ciego_, or blind fish, (about nine inches long, with only the spinal
bone) and a species of anchovies or  sardinas.  Oysters are very plentiful,
and the rock oysters though large are good, while those found among the
mangroves are very muddy.
   The bread made here is generally of an inferior quality, although the
flour is good, both that procured from Chile, and that from the provinces of Quito
and Cuenca.  Rice, _garbansas_, a species of pea, brought from Lamayeque,
beans, quinua, ;lentils, and other pulse are cheap;...

Pg. 212:  The _anona_, or _cabesa de negro_, is similar to the chirimoya, but
it is neither so large nor so delicate as that fruit: _badeas_ are very large
and highly flavoured: the _jobos_ are a fruit in size and shape like a large
damson, of a yellow colour, very juicy, with an agreeable acidity; when green
they make excellent tarts: the _mameis_ are an egg-shaped fruit, with a
fibrous rind, covering a pulpy substance, of a delicately sweet taste; each contains
one or two large rough kidney-shaped seeds: _maranones_, a fruit somewhat
like a lemon; they have a smooth yellow skin, striped with red; the pulp is very
acid but agreeable, and is sucked on account of its being very fibrous; (Pg.
213--ed.)  in size and shape the seed is like the cashew nut, but it is united
to the fruit where this joins the branch; the seed is more delicate than an
almond, and it is used by the confectioner as well as the fruit: _nisperos_, an
egg-shaped fruit about four inches long; the rind is brown and rough, the pulp
in some is white, in others reddish, very sweet, and somewhat resembling the
taste of a delicious pear; each contains three long hard seeds--this fruit is
in season during the whole year: _zapotes_, a round fruit about five or six
inches in diameter, having a soft, downy, yellowish rind; the pulp in some is a
very deep yellow, in others it is white, in others almost black, but the
yellow kind is considered the best; they are very sweet, but fibrous; in the centre
is a large kernel, to which all the fibres appear strongly attached.
Oranges, limes, lemons, paltas, lucumas, palillos, tamarinds, guavas, coconuts, and
other intertropical fruits are also in very great abundance.

Pg. 258:  On our arrival at this village we were met by about forty indian
boys, _cholos_, fantastically dressed; and the little fellows danced along the
sides of the street as we passed to the house prepared for our reception.
   (OED has 1851 for "cholo," from Herman Melville--ed.)

Pg. 274:  Among the delicacies found in Ambato is excellent bread, equal to
any in the world, and several kinds of cakes, particularly one called
_allullas_, of which many are made and sent to Quito, Guayaquil, and other places.

Pg. 315:  The truth is, that the distilling of rum is a royal monopoly in
Quito; whereas that of brandy is not so in Peru; thus, for the purpose of
increasing the consumption of rum, which augments the royalo revnue, brandy is one of
the _pisco_ or _aguardiente_, contraband articles.

Pg. 315:  Quito is famous for the delicate ices and iced beverages which are
made by the inhabitants; a service of ices, when a dinner or supper is given
to a large party, is considered the greatest ornament of the table.  These ices
are generally prepared by the nuns, who, for the (Pg. 316--ed.) purpose, have
pewter moulds, amde to imitate several kinds of fruit; these are in two
pieces, which are first united with wax and tied together: at a small aperture at
one end the liquor is poured in, a fluid prepared from the juice of the fruit
which the mould is made to imitate; when full, the hole is closed with wax, and
the mould is put into a heap of broken ice mixed with salt, and allowed to
remain till the liquor is congealed; the two parts of the mould are then
separated, and the solid contents placed on a dish: thus a service of ices is made to
consist of perfect imitations of pine-apples, oranges, melons, figs, and
other fruits.  When milk or cream is iced it is poured into a mould formed like a
cheese.  These imitations, placed on dishes, and ornamented with leaves &c.
are with difficulty distinguished from fruit, and when fruit is mixed with them,
I have frequently seen strangers completely deceived.
   (The whole next page is also worth reading--ed.)

Pg. 318:  This may partly be accounted for from the number of dishes made
with potatoes, pumpkins, gourds, maize, wheat, and many other kinds of vegetables
and pulse mixed with cheese.  As the custom of eating toasted cheese is
prevalent, a whole one, weighing from three to four pounds, is generally placed on
the tables of wealthy citizens both at breakfast and supper;...

Pg. 353:  ...this is of cotton, and is generally no more than a _toldo_,
mosquito curtain, in the shape of a small tent, under which they sleep, besides
one or two sheets of the same material.
   (OED has 1760-72, then 1852 for "toldo"--ed.)

Pg. 366:  The masato is made yb boiling a quantity of ripe plantains till
they are quite soft; these are reduced to a pulp by beating them in a trough;
this pulp is then put into a basket lined with vijao leaves, and allowed to
ferment two, three, or more days; when it is wanted a spoonful or more is taken out
and put into a tutuma bored full of holes like a cullender, a quantity of
water is added to it, and the whole is rubbed through the holes of one tutuma
into another without holes, which serves as a bowl to drink out of; or small
tutumas are filled from it, and handed round.  I was highly pleased with the
masato, and scarcely took any thing else for my breakfast; the taste is a sub-acid,
but remarkably agreeable.

Pg. 371:  Anoher fermented beverage, as well as spirit, is prepared from the
yuca; the root is boiled, reduced to a pulpy substance, and placed in baskets
to ferment, in the same manner as the plantains are for the masato; when mixed
with water and strained, it is called _kiebla_, and the spirit  distilled
from it _puichin_.
   (OED has neither "kiebla" nor "piuchin"--ed.)

Pg. 379:  IN the Emeraldas river and in many of the tributary streams there
is a variety of delicate fish, as well as ion the sea on the neighbouring
coast.  The most delicate in the rivers are the lisa, _dama_, _sabalo_, and
_sabalete_; in the sea the lisa, corbina, chita, mero, and tollo; besides these there
is a small fish resembling a shrimp, not half an inch long, which makes its
annual appearance in February, or in the beginning of March; it is called
_chautisa_, and is really a great delicacy when prepared by the natives.
     (OED has 1889 for "sabalo."  OED does not have "chautisa"--ed.)

Pg. 385:  Another kind of cocoa is found here, called _moracumba_;...


VOLUME THREE
(No citations.  "Serrano" and "aji" are mentioned in the Arica passage on
page 328--ed.)


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Mon Sep 22 02:57:41 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C. Stalker)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:57:41 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.225741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:

>  I wonder how being from
> >Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>
> Surely it's almost always "Chinese". It's in MW3.
>
>
> The idea is to use a nationality which has an undisciplined/disorganized
> stereotype.
>
> Almost any choice would seem more likely than "Japanese", (1) since the
> Japanese have a very long tradition of very well organized fire
> preparations, I believe (Japanese cities having been constructed largely of
> wood and paper until recently), and of course (2) since the Japanese to
> some degree received a quasi-German overly-disciplined/regimented/robotic
> stereotype in the US during and following WW II.
>
> Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
> between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.

Stereotypes are rarely logical.  Language captures stereotypes in folk
discourse such as the classic Chinese fire drill (e. g., utter disorganization)
under discussion and the derivative adolescent car game.  We demean those who
are a threat to us by implying they are illogical and undisciplined (i. e., not
as good as us).  The dating then becomes important.  Is there a convergence of
the date for "Japanese" fire drill and the perceived economic threat of of
Japan?  Not knowing the history of the steel industry in Pittsburgh, I can't
speak with any certainty, but it could be this would be the time when the
Pittsburgh steel industry (which has, of course, vanished)  was threatened by
the Japanese steel industry.  Adolescents reflect (reluctantly and
unconsciously) the attitudes of their parents and the  general context in which
they operate.  Could this be an explanation for the shift from Chinese to
Japanese?

Jim Stalker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 03:10:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:10:37 -0400
Subject: Taco Salad (1965)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.231037.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Or all right, here's another "taco salad" from the 1960s.  But Los Angeles is gonna beat this.   The first NEW YORK TIMES hit is 1982, from Connecticut.
   OT:  The GOURMET restaurant issue just arrived in the mail.  The Sterns check out the pizza in New Haven, CT.  Again!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1.
      Add a Touch Of Old Mexico
              The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 11, 1965.                   p. C19 (1 page):
   LOOKING for a hearty salad to serve with steaming bowls of soup for a church, club or school luncheon for 40 or 50 people?
   Tr Taco Salad.  It's different and delicious.  Made with shredded lettuce, grated cheese, ground beef, tomatoes, corn chips and Taco sauce, the main dish sald satisfies hearty appetitites.  (...)
      _TACO SALAD_
4 heads coarsely shredded lettuce
4 cups grated cheddar cheese
1 cup onion, finely chopped
8 medium fresh tomatoes, cut in chunks, or 2 cans (1 lb., 12 oz.) whole tomatoes, drained
3 pounds of ground beef
1/3 cup Taco Sauce
24 ounces tortilla corn chips
Black olives
   Wash, drain and chill lettuce.  Shred lettuce heads with knife or use a machine medium vegetable shredder disc.  Keep lettuce cold.  Meanwhile, saute onions and ground beef.  Break up the meat with a fork while cooking,  Put shredded lettuce, grated cheese and tomatoes in large salad bowl; toss lightly.  When ready to serve, add hot meat and corn chips.  Toss ingredients together lightly.  Garnish with black olives.  Makes 3 gallons or 40 one-cup servings.
   NOTE:  The meat mixture goes into the main dish salad ingredients while hot.  If serving a large group of people, have the cold and hot ingredients prepared, toss together in small batches.


2.
      Display Ad 24 -- No Title
              The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: May 27, 1966.                   p. A12 (1 page):
(False hit--ed.)

3.
      Bourbon Pate-a Decorative Hors d'Oeuvre to Impress Your Guests
       Anne's Reader Exchange.       The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 8, 1968.                   p. D17 (1 page):
(False hit--ed.)

4.
      Hot Town, Summer in the City: The Salad Cool-Off
       By Betsy Balsley.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 4, 1977.                   p. E14 (1 page):
   TACO SALAD.

5.
      Balancing Diets From Infancy Onward
       By Jeanne Lesem.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 25, 1979.                   p. E22 (1 page)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Sep 22 03:24:04 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:24:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "knucklehead" (1938)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.SEP.2003.232404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Might "knucklehead(ed)" be derived from the literal term "knuckle head," part of a railway car coupling?  The earliest use I've seen is from an 1897 patent case:

>>As early as the 29th of April, 1873, a patent was issued to E. H. Janney, No. 138,405, for a car coupler which established a type.   It had a forked draw-head, one arm of which operated as a buffer, and to the other arm was pivoted a knuckle or coupling-head consisting of two arms, one adapted to hook with a similar arm upon a similar coupling-head on a fellow coupler, and the other when the coupling-head was open, swinging out in a position where it would be struck by the arm of the opposing coupler and driven back into a hollow draw-head, there to be latched by a spring latch firmly against the side of the draw-head, and thus holding the outer arm or hook of the coupling-head in engagement with the corresponding hook of the coupling-head of the opposing coupler.   The form may be gathered from the following figures taken from the drawings of the patent.

[Drawing in original] 

  Various improvements were made by Janney on his coupler in the matter of the locking device and the form of the draw-head and coupler, one in 1874, another in 1878, another in 1879, and another in 1882.   On the following page are Figs. 1 and 2 of the drawings of the Janney patent of 1879.   The locking device is a spring latch embracing the tail or inner arm of the knuckle head.<<

St. Louis Car-Coupler Co. v. National Malleable Castings Co., 81 F. 706, 713 (N.D. Ohio 1897).  The 1873 patent does not use the term "knuckle head"; I was unable to check the later patents, as the database is not searchable without a patent number.

 

There is a 1942 quote in Life (quoted in HDAS) suggesting that "knuckle-head" means thick-skulled.  That would fit in neatly with the literal knuckle-head.


John Baker 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 09:27:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:27:20 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.052720.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"DACHSHUND" AND "SAUSAGE"

    For the benefit of anyone doing a "hot dog" book--and who isn't?--I just
thought that I'd check the words "dachshund/dachshunds" and "sausage/sausages"
on the Ancestry.com newspapers.  A recent New York Times Magazine article
said that "hot dog" came from "dachshund."  (This is post-Jason Blair accuracy,
too.)
   Just how many hits are there in the 19th century?  Or even before TAD's
death in 1929?
   Let's check:

Ames Daily Tribune (Ames, Iowa), 3 hits, 1954 first hit
Appleton Post Crescent (Appleton, Wisconsin), 9 hits, 1958
Atchison Daily Globe (Atchison, Kansas) 3 hits, 1950
Atlanta Constitution (Atlanta, Georgia), 1 hit, 1915
Bennington Evening Banner (Bennington, Vermont), 1 hit, 1956
Berkshire County Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 1 hit, 1950
Berkshire Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 1 hit, 1946
Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, Massachusetts), 13 hits, 1946
Bradford Era (Bradford, Pennsylvania) 1 hit, 1951
Bridgeport Post (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 4 hits, 1955
Bridgeport Sunday Post (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 4 hits, 1956
Bridgeport Telegram (Bridgeport, Connecticut), 17 hits, 1951
Caribou County Sun (Soda Springs, Idaho), 1 hit, 1966
Charleston Daily Mail (Charleston, West Virginia), 27 hits, 1938
Chilicothe Constitution Tribune (Chilicothe, Missouri), 2 hits, 1964
Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 79 hits, 1933
Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 25 hits, 1933
Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio), 26 hits, 1967
Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio) 5 hits, 1952
Decatur Review (Decatur, Illinois), 1 hit, 1927
Deming Headlight (Deming, Neww Mexico), 8 hits, 1973
Dixon Evening Telegraph (Dixon, Illinois), 7 hits, 1947
East Liverpool Review (East Liverpool, Ohio), 1 hit, 1951
Edwardsville Intelligencer (Edwardsville, Illinois), 165 hits, 1951
Evening Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), 1 hit, 1909
Fort Wayne News (Fort Wayne, Indiana), 3 hits, 1900, 1909, 1915
Fort Wayne News (Fort Wayne, Indiana), 2 hits, 1900, 1909
Frederick Post (Frederick, Maryland) 3 hits, 1983
Gettysburg Times (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), 24 hits, 1933
Harlan News Advertiser (Harlan, Iowa), 1 hit, 1966
Helena Independent (Helena, Montana), 3 hits, 1933
Herald Press (St. Joseph, Michigan), 2 hits, 1953
Independent Record (Helena, Montana), 4 hits, 1944
Indiana Evening Gazette (Indiana, Pennsylvania), 8 hits, 1930
Iowa City Press Citizen (Iowa City, Iowa), 9 hits, 1950
Jefferson Bee (Jefferson, Iowa), 4 hits, 1958
Kossuth County Advance (Algona, Iowa), 1 hit, 1955
Lemars Daily Sentinel (Lemars, Iowa), 1 hit, 1973
Lemars Globe Post (Lemars, Iowa), 2 hits, 1952
Mansfield News Journal (Mansfield, Ohio), 2 hits, 1937
Marion Daily Star (Marion, Ohio), 1 hit, 1893
Marion Daily Star (Marion, Ohio), 8 hits, 1913
Marion Star (Marion, Ohio), 425 hits, 1944
Monroe County News (Albia, Iowa), 1 hit, 1968
Morning News Review (Florence, South Carolina), 1 hit, 1925
Morning World Herald (Omaha, Nebraska), 1 hit, 1893
Mountain Democrat (Placerville, California), 15 hits, 1962
Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada) 4 hits, 1936
New Oxford Item (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), 1 hit, 1908
Newport Daily News (Newport, Rhode Island), 4 hits, 1950
News (Frederick, Maryland), 23 hits, 1954
Oshkosh Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin), 2 hits, 1955
Oxnard Press Courier (Oxnard, California), 4 hits, 1949
Playground Daily News (Fort Walton Beach, Florida), 3 hits, 1966
Post Crescent (Appleton, WIsconsin), 45 hits, 1965
Reno Evening Gazette (Reno, Nevada), 8 hits, 1944
Reporter (Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin), 2 hits, 1977
Sedalia Democrat (Sedalia, Missouri), 1 hit, 1949
Sheboygan Press (Sheboygan, Wisconsin), 3 hits, 1923
Times Recorder (Zanesville, Ohioh), 17 hits, 1941
Traverse City Record Eagle (Traverse City, Michigan), 7 hits, 1950
Washington Post (Washington, D.C.), 1 hit, 1907
Washington Post (Washington, D.C.), 2 hits, 1913
Waterloo Daily Courier (Waterloo, Iowa), 8 hits, 1945
Waukesha Daily Freeman (Waukesha, Wisconsin), 7 hits, 1947
Wichita Daily Times (Whichita Falls, Texas), 1 hit, 1965
Zanesville Signal (Zanesville, Ohio), 5 hits, 1939


   19 February 1893, MORNING WORLD HERALD (Omaha, Nebraska), pg. 16, col. 1:
_Mr. Belmont's Kennels--"The More I See_
  _of Men, the Better I_
   _Like Dogs."_
(...) ,,,memory of vanish glory and (illegible)-eight in sausage.
("Dachshund" is on another line of the story--ed.)

   12 May 1893, MARION DAILY STAR (Marion, Ohio_, pg. 2?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   29 June 1900, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 7:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   2 December 1909, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 12:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   8 December 1915, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 13:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   7 July 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4, col. 6:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in the same article, but different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   19 July 1913, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   16 March 1915, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8, col. 5:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in the same article, but different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   9 July 1908, NEW OXFORD ITEM (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 7?, col. 2:
   Who cares now for a silky King Charles or a stately wolf-hound?  The craze
is all for your slouching bull-pup or wiry fox-terrier or alien Dachshund,
shaped like a sausage and sold by the yard.--Saturday Review.

   23 December 1909, EVENING TELEGFRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 5?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   5 November 1913, MARION DAILY STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 5, col. 2:
("Dachshund" and "sausage"  are in the same article, but on different lines.
They are not connected--ed.)

   2 January 1915, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 10:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   14 November 1923, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin), pg. 15:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   2 November 1925, MORNING NEWS REVIEW (Florence, South Carolina), pg. 16?:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in different stories--ed.)

   29 September 1927, DECATUR REVIEW (Decatur, Illionois), pg. 7:
("Dachshund" and "sausage" are in diffferent stories--ed.)


   Ancestry.com has now digitized about 13 million pages.  Most of it is
probably pre-copyright, or before 1930.
   That's every hit for "dachshund" and "sausage."  You tell the NEW YORK
TIMES.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ANTON/ANTOINE FEUCHTWANGER

ANTON FEUCHTWANGER--102 Google hits
ANTON LUDWIG FEUCHTWANGER--2 Google hits
ANTOINE FEUCHTWANGER--29 Google hits

   Anton or Antoine Feuchtwanger is the guy who invented the hot dog bun at
the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, or maybe it was the 1893 Chicago World's Fair.
 C'MON, IT'S THE WORLD WIDE WEB!  YOU DON'T NEED ACCURACY!
    There was just one Ancestry hit.


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   27 February 1967, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 10, col. 1:
   The birth of the American "hot dog" is equally hazy.  One legend points to
Antoine Ludwig Feuchtwanger, a sausage vender who came to America from
Bavaria.  Aontoine introduced his "red dogs" to the citizens of St. Louis in 1883
and provided each customer with a white glove to hold the hot sausage.  He took
his idea to the Chicago World's Fair where profits nose-dived because
customers failed to return the white gloves.  he and his wife hit upon the idea of
wrapping the hot sausage in a bun.  This was instantly successful.
   ANOTHER LEGEND says the original name was a hot "dachshund" sausage and
this was changed to "hot dog" by a cartoonist who renamed it to solve his
spelling problem.


 (MISSOURI HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS PROJECT)
   6 July 1967, COLUMBIA MISSOURIAN, pg. 5:
_History Dim on Hot Dog_
_The Lighter Side_ by Dixk West
(...)
--The hot dog was invented in 1883 by Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger, a St. Louis,
Mo., sausagemonger who didn't call it anything.
(...)
--The term "hot dog" was first used by Tad Dorgan, a San Francisco cartoonist
who thought the sausage looked like a dachshund.
--The term "hot dog: sprang from "humorous implications" that the sausage was
stuffed with dog meat.
(...)
   Additional information has unfortunately come to light.
   Mrs. Jeff E. Meyer of Anaheim, Calif., sent me a clipping from the St.
Louis Post Dispatch confirming St. Louis as the birthplace of the hot dog.
   The Post Dispatch, however, does not recognize Feuchtwanger as the
inventor.  It gives the credit to a butcher named John Hoepple.
(...)
  This, I promise, ends my career as a hot dog historian.


(Career?  How much money can you make?--ed.)


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Sep 22 13:52:50 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:52:50 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BA9C@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.095250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just for the record, the 1962 cite in HDAS is for the sense
"something difficult to deal with."  The 1964 date M-W reports
(backed by another cite in HDAS) is for the sense "a stupid
person."


Is the word a calque?  The evidence I've seen so far doesn't
seem compelling.  The earliest recorded uses of the word in
English don't particularly suggest Italian influence, and the
combination of various names for the human genitalia with "-head"
to suggest stupidity seems well established in English (note the
cross-references to analogous terms in HDAS).  In fact, the use of
such words as terms of abuse denoting  defects of intelligence or
character seems a fairly common pattern across languages.


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Sep 22 14:19:32 2003
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:19:32 -0500
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <200309212257.c3f6e650eea@rly-na01.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.091932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Is there a convergence of
>the date for "Japanese" fire drill and the perceived economic threat of of
>Japan?  Not knowing the history of the steel industry in Pittsburgh, I can't
>speak with any certainty, but it could be this would be the time when the
>Pittsburgh steel industry (which has, of course, vanished)  was threatened by
>the Japanese steel industry.  Adolescents reflect (reluctantly and
>unconsciously) the attitudes of their parents and the  general context in which
>they operate.  Could this be an explanation for the shift from Chinese to
>Japanese?
>

This is possible.  Being from Pittsburgh, though not from a steel
working family, I know that in the early 1980's was when the steel
industry really crashed, but the seeds for that could have been planted
in the 1970's when I remember hearing this phrase.  In addition, I do
know that there is a perception among people in the area where I grew up
that the japanese are/were "taking over" jobs etc. in the area, putting
"honest" Pittsburghers out of work.

I hadn't thought of that, but it sounds logical.

If I get a chance, I'll check with others who grew up around that time
in Pittsburgh to see if they heard the phrase.

Patti

>
>Jim Stalker
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 15:39:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:39:41 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.113941.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  FYI: This is on the Ancestry.com message board:


Submitter:  Wohlers, Lynne
Subject:    <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/localities.ceeurope.germany.bavaria.general/297">Anton Feuchtwanger</A>
Message:    Anton Ludwig FEUCHTWANGER was a sausage peddler from Bavaria. He
invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in the Summer of 1886 in St. Louis, Missouri,
USA. He was also supposed to have invented this at the St. Louis World's
Fair/Louisiana Purchase Exposition in 1904. Anton was married and had a brother who
was a Baker. The house where he invented the Hog Dog on a Bun, the Jean
Baptiste Roy House, was at 2nd and Plum Streets in St. Louis. The St. Louis Arch, or
Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, now stands at this place. In about 1946
or 1947, there was a Historical Marker or Plaque dedicated to Anton by the
St. Louis Jr. Chamber of Commerce, the Young Men's Division. When did Anton
immigrate to the USA? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Submitter:  Lynne Wohlers
Subject:    <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/an/localities.northam.usa.states.missouri.counties.stlouis/178">FEUCHTWANGER, ANTON LUDWIG</A>
Message:    ANTON LUDWIG FEUCHTWANGER was a sausage peddler from Bavaria. In
the Summer of 1883 while working for Sausage makers John BOEPPLE and William
TAMME at the Jean Baptiste Roy House at 2nd and Plum Street in Downtown St.
Louis, Anton invented the Hot Dog on a Bun. Anton had a wife, and a brother who
was a Baker. The legend says that Anton's wife suggested he put hot sausages
wrapped in a bun.

The Jean Baptiste Roy House, which was a Historical Landmark with a Plaque on
it dedicated to Anton as being the inventor of the Hot Dog on a Bun, was torn
down in 1947 to make room for the St. Louis Arch (Jefferson National
Expansion Memorial).

The Historical Marker, or Plaque, was dedicated to Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger
by the Young Men's Division of the Jr. Chamber of Commerce, but I do not know
what year. When the dedication took place, was Anton or his descendants still
around? I have been told that the Historical Marker is in the Basement of City
Hall in St. Louis.

Anton was also to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in 1904 at the St. Louis
World's Fair, Louisiana Purchase Exposition. There is also a possibility that
Anton came from Frankfurt, Germany, and not Bavaria. Any help is appreciated.

Lynne Wohlers


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 22 16:39:21 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:39:21 EDT
Subject: "Dachshund* Sausage*" on Ancestry newspapers; Anton/Antoine
 Feuchtwanger
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.123921.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    More from the Ancestry.com message boards.  This is a reply to the
FEUCHTWANGER query.
    Upon further examination, it appears that ADS-member and UNC professor
Connie Eble invented the "hot dog."


      Info. on John Boepple
    Author: <A HREF="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=author&r=an&a=&ee=yS46rWaTKy1YuudSGCE3Wa2lNXuTbyrjr8vtsT_1CtM&onok=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.ancestry.com%2Fmbexec%3Fhtx%3Dmessage%26r%3Dan%26p%3Dlocalities.northam.usa.states.missouri.counties.stlouis%26m%3D178.2157">Randy Bready</A>        Date: 17 Apr 2001 12:00 PM GMT
    Surnames: BOEPPLE
    Classification: Query

In response to your posting under St.Louis, you mentioned
a sausage maker named John Boepple. I believe that this man
was my wife's great grandfather, who came from Frankfort,
Germany sometime in the 1800's. He was married to a Christine Eble. I wonder
if could offer any guidance on how
to learn more about John Boepple?

Thanks,
Randy Bready


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Sep 22 17:58:07 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:07 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309161308350.30674-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.135807.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Annals of Improbable Research have a long four-part series on
Murphy and his law:

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/
murphy0.html

Grant


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Sep 22 18:14:54 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:14:54 -0400
Subject: Japanese fire drill
In-Reply-To: <3F6F04F4.9060702@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.141454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 >>I wonder how being from
> >Pittsburgh would have transformed it from 'Chinese" to "Japanese."
>~~~~~~~
 > Some US-ans who are not scholarly types might not perceive any distinction
> between China and Japan, either in reality or in stereotype.
~~~~~~~~~~~
 If this had been a decade earlier it could have been attributed to a
holdover from the parental generation that had grown up with the varieties
of stereotypes that were prevalent before & during WWII.  Before the war &
the proliferation of propagandistic imagery of evil, hostility, treachery
&c., of all things associated with Japan, there were other disparaging
ones.  "Made in Japan" meant  cheap knock-off, inferior materials, workers
with no self-respect, &c.  The ingenuity, beauty, usefulness counted for
nothing.  "Made in China"  on the other hand, meant artistic, beautifully
made, &c., by people of respectable, even admirable traditions.  Some of
this, no doubt, reflected  our attitudes  toward the Sino-Japanese war that
had been going on ten years before Pearl Harbor,  but I think antedated
even that.
A. Murie


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 22 19:24:48 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <200309221758.h8MHw8L27009@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.152448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Grant Barrett wrote:

> The Annals of Improbable Research have a long four-part series on
> Murphy and his law:
>
> http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/
> murphy0.html

I had planned to post a message about this.  This is an interesting series
that has no major new information to offer, has no documented early
printed citations, but is based on talking with surviving witnesses to the
standard account of the origin of Murphy's Law and succeeds in bringing
out some of the contradictory aspects of the anecdotal record.  This
series coincidentally duplicates my conversation with George Nichols, with
whom I had just talked when I discovered the URL above.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Sep 22 20:59:09 2003
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:59:09 -0700
Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebb8e4d6ff9a2@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.135909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just received a German and English double version. Because it was an
attachment, I have posted it at

http://students.washington.edu/bjb5/german.jpg

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Wednesday, 17 September 2003 10:46 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "rscheearch" on scrambling investigated
>
>
> See now the snopes posting on this at
> http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp
>
> I just got yet another version, in which the finding is
> attributed to "rscheearch [sic; that double -ch- strikes
> again] at Txes [sic] M&A Uinervtisy".
>
> larry
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 00:12:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:12:15 -0400
Subject: Feuchtwanger, Boepple, Tamme information
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.201215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I e-mailed her to see if she had any genealogical information and got this response.  I'll post it in full so she can receive any credit.
   Now, I could look up "Feuchtwanger" and "hot dogs" easily in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, if I just had that darned Proquest CHICAGO TRIBUNE...

Barry Popik

  Subj:
Re: Feuchtwanger, Tamme, Boepple
  Date:
9/22/2003 6:27:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:
Lynne Wohlers <lwohgerman at earthlink.net>
  To:
Bapopik at aol.com

Dear Barry Popik,

 It's been a while since I researched Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger.  I am no longer researching Anton, but will look for whatever information I have.

 Anton was a sausage peddler from Bavaria, or Frankfurt, Germany.  Anton was supposed to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun in the summer of 1883 in St. Louis, Missouri.  Anton was also supposed to have invented the Hot Dog on a Bun at the St. Louis Worlds Fair in 1904.  I am not sure what date is correct.  Anton worked for John Boepple and William Tamme, who were sausage makers, at 2nd and Plum Streets at the Jean Baptiste Roy House, in St. Louis, Missouri.  The house is gone, and was replaced with the St. Louis Arch, or Jefferson National Expansion Memorial.  While I was doing my research, I found that there was a plaque dedicated to Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger in 1947, by the Young Men's Division of the St. Louis Jr. Chamber of Commerce.  I believe I contacted City Hall, and there was a plaqe dedicated to Anton in the basement.  The plans were to put a memorial under the St. Louis Arch, honoring people who received plaques.

 There are many articles on Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger in a St. Louis newspaper in 1947.  I forget the name of the newspaper right now.  It was when they were tearing down the Jean Baptiste Roy House.  There was a protest to keep the house as a Historical Monument, as the place where the Hot Dog on a Bun was invented.  I will see if I can find the newspaper articles.
 I never found a date of death for Anton.  It is possible that he was in St. Louis for some time, and eventually moved.  As for John Boepple and William Tamme, I think there are descendants of William Tamme still living in St. Louis today.  I do not know about John Boepple.  The last time I researched Anton was about 1994.

 Sincerely
 Lynne Wohlers
 Long Beach, California

 Bapopik at aol.com wrote:

   I'm researching the "hot dog," and it's very important.  What do you have on Feuchtwanger, Boepple, and Tamme?  Do you have historic articles (before 1950)?  Do you have their dates of death so I can check obituaries?

  Barry Popik (Ancestry.com member)
  New York, NY


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 00:34:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:34:43 -0400
Subject: House of the Hot Dog (St. Louis, 1947)
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.203443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI, from ProQuest's CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR.


      Mirror of World Opinion The House of the Hot Dog
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Jan 20, 1947.                   p. 20 (1 page)

   If everyone who has rolled his tongue and smacked his lips over a hot dog sandwich could be solicited for one-mill contributions, there is no question as to what would happen to the Jean Baptiste Roy house at 615 North Second Street.  Funds many times over the sum required would roll in from the Fifth Ward, from Sauk Center, from Montmarte, Nome, Beacon Hill, Indonesia--from everywhere.  The old house's every last stick and stone would be tenderly moved to the riverfront park, there to be set up as a shrine to which its benefactors might come as pilgrims through the centuries.
   Skip fur trader Roy.  He merely built the house on land bought from Pierre Chouteau, Jr.  The chaps who counted were subsequent owners, John Boepple and William Tamme, butchers.  They dreamed up the hot dog there, so the antiquarians aver, and all mankind owes them an unpayable debt.  If the National Park Service and the City Hall know a historic building when they see one, they will collaborate to move the old house whole or at least transfer it piece by piece.  As a place of interest on the riverfront, the butcher shop of Boepple & Tamme would be miles ahead of monumental buildings costing thousands of times more.--_St. Louis Post-Dispatch_.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep 23 03:37:20 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:37:20 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F6EC672.9235.E853051@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.22.SEP.2003.233720.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Just for the record, the 1962 cite in HDAS is for the sense
>"something difficult to deal with."  The 1964 date M-W reports
>(backed by another cite in HDAS) is for the sense "a stupid
>person."

I think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
"motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
annoying/accursed/difficult".

>Is the word a calque?  The evidence I've seen so far doesn't
>seem compelling.  The earliest recorded uses of the word in
>English don't particularly suggest Italian influence, and the
>combination of various names for the human genitalia with "-head"
>to suggest stupidity seems well established in English (note the
>cross-references to analogous terms in HDAS).  In fact, the use of
>such words as terms of abuse denoting  defects of intelligence or
>character seems a fairly common pattern across languages.

I agree.

Incidentally:

I see plenty of instances of the conventional "testa di cazzo" (= "stupid
person", essentially = "dickhead") on the Web, but no modern "testa di
cazzi"/"testa de cazi"/etc. I suppose "cazi" = modern "cazzi" is the plural
of "caz[z]o"? Does the pluralization change the interpretation?

[This "cazzo" is the "gotts" in the popular "stu gotts".]

[The etymology of "cazzo" is somewhat mysterious, apparently.]

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 23 08:09:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:09:02 EDT
Subject: Estanciero, Cana, Porteno, Chipa (1838-1839)
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.040902.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LETTERS ON PARAGUAY:
COMPRISING AN ACCOUNT OF A FOUR YEARS' RESIDENCE IN THAT REPUBLIC
by J. P. and W. P. Robertson
in three volumes
second edition
London: J. Murray
1839
New York: AMS Press, Ltd.
1970

   The letters were written in 1838.  OED doesn't have a single citation from
its three volumes.  No one has read this work for over 160 years?
   A few antedates/antedatings before I go back to work at Burger King.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 58:  He mixes more freely in general society, takes a share in the
affairs and offices of state, educates his chilldren more liberally; and though the
estanciero himself may still adhere to many of his primitive and favourite
habits, yet many a rich estanciero's wife and daughters are to be seen driving
about in handsome and modern-built carriages of their own.
   (OED has 1845 for "estanciero"--ed.)

Pg. 59:  The chacarero is generally brave, frank, and hospitable.  His spouse
and daughters are fond of gaudy finery; and he himself, on the "dia de
fiesta," or holiday, decks out his horse and person (they being more "one flesh"
than he and his wife) in rich trappings and gay apparel.
   (OED has 1844 for "fiesta."    OED doesn't have
"chacara"--farming-ground--or "chacarero" both mentioned here--ed.)

Pg. 165:  Many smoked their pipes or cigars; some had already partaken freely
of the cana (a spirit made from the sugar-cane) and all were in evidently
high good humour, both with themselves and others.
   (OED has 1881 for "cana"--ed.)

Pg. 173:  But we were encountered by one of those hurricanes called
pamperos,--the south-west gales,--which blow over the plains or pampas, that intervene
between the Andes and the River Plate.
   ("Pamperos" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 174:  ...the Portenos (so are the inhabitants of Buenos Ayres called)
sent out upon it artillery to attack a Spanish sloop-of-war, lying at about that
distance from the town.
   (OED has 1884 for "Porteno"--ed.)

Pg. 188:  The servants stood with their arms crossed till the olla podrida
had nearly disappeared.  The remove was a dish of the celebrated "carne con
cuero," or beef roasted in the skin of the animal; and let no Englishman boast of
_his_ roast beef after he has tasted this.  A proper dish of "_carne con
cuero_" (and that of the curate of Luxan was excellent) consists of the ribs cut,
hide and all, (Pg. 189--ed.) from the side of a fat yearling.  It may weigh,
when served, about twenty pounds, and being roasted in the hide, of course the
juice of the meat is all preserved.  The animal, on part of which we were now
feasting, had been slaughtered that very morning, and yet the flesh was tender
and full flavoured.  Carne con cuero is altogether one of the most savoury
dishes of which you can well partake.  It was attacked and demolished as the olla
podrida had been; and the servants then removed and replaced dish after dish,
as before.  Roast fowl, boiled fowl, hashes, and stews followed in rapid
succession.  Then came the _fish_ (for the Spaniards always take their fish last),
and abundance of candied sweetmeats, milk, and honey.

Pg. 250:  The river abounds with fish from its mouth to its source.  The
pexerey (king's fish), the dorado, mullet, pacu (a sort of turbot), and many
others, are found in it;...
   (OED has 1825 for "pacu."  OED does not have "pexerey"--ed.)

Pg. 279:  ...a one-eyed black slave called Bopi (in Guarani, "the man of one
eye") cooked the doctor's asado, made his olla, or seasoned with garlic his
more dainty guisado, or stew.
   (OED does not have "asado" or "guisado"--ed.)

Pg. 303:  The assessor, I may say, the ruler of the Government, Don Gregorio
de la Cerda, had become my right-hand man; nor was I unwilling to march under
the direction of one who not only did as he pleased in affairs of state, but
who was the padrino (or godfather) of the children of every family of
consideration in the place.
   (The revised OED has "madrina" from 1835.  This entry has "padrino" from
1986.  There is no OED "padrino" entry so far--ed.)

Pg. 327:  Up got Dona Juana, in her eighty-fourth year, and danced a
sarandig, or heel-dance;...
   (OED does not have "sarandig"--ed.)

Pg. 354:  I ordered all the men to come upon the roof of the house, and I
thus addressed Borda, the vaqueano (or pilot), and his Paraguayan crew:...
   (OED has "vaquero" but not "vaqueano"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 4:  ...that I was to be dragged through pantanos (or quagmires), and
almost literally to sail over rivers, it will not be considered that it was too
lightly laden.
   (OED has one "pantano" in the "pant" etymology--ed.)

Pg. 118:  From his own cotton he made the clothing of his own household; he
reared his own pigs and poultry, killed his own game, made his own cheese and
butter; and was very celebrated for his chipa.*
*A very palatable bread, especially when just taken from the oven, made from
the Indian corn.
   ("Chipa" is not an entry in OED, but there's are 1885 and 1973 citations
under "manioc."  It should be an entry--ed.)
   (http://f.about.com/z/js/spr09sm.htm)
   (Chipa is a type of corn bread sold everywhere in Paraguay - on the
streets, at soccer games and in chiperias. Made from a mixture of starch, paraguayan
cheese, milk and corn, it is cheap and tasty. Chipa is traditionally made and
eaten in great quantities during holy week La Semana Santa. )

Pg. 142:  There, other sets were making preparations for the manufacturing
and storing of the yerba.  These preparations consisted, first, in the
construction of the _tatacua_.

Pg. 143:  When the yerba was thoroughly scorched, the fire was swept from
under the _barbacua_, or arch;...

Pg. 191:  At the feet of each lady (not, however, including the young
unmarried ones), sat a _mulatilla_, a female mulatto slave, nine or ten years of age,
with a large roll of Paraguay tobacco, and from this the mistresses
themselves made their immense cigars on their own laps.
   ("Mulatilla" is not in the revised OED--ed.)

Pg. 199:  Don Francisco Candioti was a distinguished (Pg. 200--ed.) personage
at this _convite_, or banquet, and his nephew Aldao ranked among the
marchants.
   (OED has "convite" as an obscure verb, not as a noun--ed.)

Pg. 201:  The third South American custom (and this one confounded me) was
that of the guests pelting each other at table with _pelotitas_, or bread-balls,
of the size of a pea.  They threw them off with the middle finger and thumb,
with generally unerring aim, and in such prodigious numbers, that the floor
was literally _invisible_ in many parts of the room.  All at table, without a
single exception, mixed in the fun, and with increasing eagerness as it
advanced.

Pg. 202:  These were _biscacheras_, or burrows of the biscacha, a destructive
and altogether useless animal.
   (OED has a1837 and then 1847 for "biscacha"--ed.)

Pg. 212:  To carnear, or "to procure beef," is this.

Pg. 214:  ...by the third day it came to us in the shape of _charque_,--the
beef cut into thin layers and strips, and dried over ropes in the sun, pretty
much as our laundresses dry clothes in this country; only the shirts,
handkerchiefs and petticoats were all beef.

VOLUME THREE
Pg. 33:  The medical men, principally old Spaniards, whom Parlett found
established in Assumption, were the veriest quacks, the most arrant _matasanos_*
that Spain ever produced.
*Literally, killers of healthy persons.
   ("Matasano" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 151:  Ranged all round it were guests of every description,--fat old
ladies and slender misses,--friars and paycitos (or young gallants), natives of
Assumption,--compadres and comadres without end;...
   (OED does not have "paycito."   OED has 1834, then 1850 for "compadre."
OED has two hits but no entry for "comadre"--ed.)


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:08:32 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:08:32 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.090832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

For those of you who have been watching/citing Queer Eye For The Straight
Guy:

The official spelling according to the Bravo website:

In Case You Were Wondering
TJUZS: [jooj] verb
Technical term used in regards to personal
fashion. To tweak, to arrange, to place, as in
pushing sleeves up the forearm or stretching out
a collar on a knit shirt to make it look worn and
less "out of the box."

http://www.bravotv.com/Queer_Eye_for_the_Straight_Guy/Hints_&_Tips/Fashion/110.shtml

---------------

This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
WOTY.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:22:22 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:22:22 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230905120.7393@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.092222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:08:32AM -0400, Steve Kl. wrote:
> And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
time as well.

> This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
> WOTY.

OK, but first we need to have the obligatory, "But it actually
goes back to the 1970s or earlier!" discussion, haina?

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:29:13 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:29:13 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030922230608.05072630@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.092913.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 22 Sep 2003, at 23:37, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>  think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
> toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
> above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
> "motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
> example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
> annoying/accursed/difficult".
>

Yes, the vagaries of documentary survival do sometimes result in a
primary sense's  being attested later than a secondary one.  It's a
tricky problem for editors of an abridged dictionary trying to
represent the historical facts in an accurate and succinct way.  If
you're the OED, you can lay out the documentary evidence but
place it in "logical" order to indicate that an earlier-attested word
probably descended from a later-attested one for which earlier
occurrences have simply not been found.  In an abridged dictionary
like the 11th Collegiate, though, you can't give the earlier date and
associate it with the later-attested sense without misrepresenting
the facts.  We, at any rate, have chosen to place the highest
premium on factual accuracy, and hope that any users  who might
find that occasionally confusing or illogical read  the front matter
explaining what our policy is.




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Sep 23 13:43:44 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:43:44 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230905120.7393@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094344.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is pronounced "yo (as in yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum) + "ee" as
in "peek")? That's all I can get out of [jooj], allthough the "oo"
(in place of [o:] adds even more mystery.

If [j] equals the "j" of "judge" and "oo" equals the "oo" of "moose,"
I might get "jooj" (is that right?), but why the brackets?

dInIs





And all along I thought it would be zhuzh...

For those of you who have been watching/citing Queer Eye For The Straight
Guy:

The official spelling according to the Bravo website:

In Case You Were Wondering
TJUZS: [jooj] verb
Technical term used in regards to personal
fashion. To tweak, to arrange, to place, as in
pushing sleeves up the forearm or stretching out
a collar on a knit shirt to make it look worn and
less "out of the box."

http://www.bravotv.com/Queer_Eye_for_the_Straight_Guy/Hints_&_Tips/Fashion/110.shtml

---------------

This needs to be nominated in some category or other for next January's
WOTY.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:35:45 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:35:45 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F701269.1097.4113AEF@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.093545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:29:13AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> On 22 Sep 2003, at 23:37, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> >  think the "stupid person" sense -- or rather the sense as a term of abuse
> > toward a person -- must be the basic sense despite the time order of the
> > above attestations. Compare "bitch", "bastard", "bugger", "cocksucker",
> > "motherf*cker", "son of a bitch", etc. -- several of these in HDAS for
> > example -- in (virtually) the same inanimate application meaning "something
> > annoying/accursed/difficult".

In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
word.

> Yes, the vagaries of documentary survival do sometimes result in a
> primary sense's  being attested later than a secondary one.  It's a
> tricky problem for editors of an abridged dictionary trying to
> represent the historical facts in an accurate and succinct way.  If
> you're the OED, you can lay out the documentary evidence but
> place it in "logical" order to indicate that an earlier-attested word
> probably descended from a later-attested one for which earlier
> occurrences have simply not been found.

This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
sense.

HDAS will continue to present words in an assumed "logical" order
of sense development, but in these cases we will always have
notes pointing this out, as explained in the front matter.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:44:20 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:44:20 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <20030923132222.GA7394@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

>
> We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
> not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
> time as well.

The only reason I brought this one up is that it's from the Bravo website,
which is the official site of the show which spawned it.

By the way, I have no idea why my email appeared twice -- I know I only
sent it once, and it wasn't an instance where I thought it didn't go
through causing me to resend it. It appeared to go through fine and that
was that.

>
> OK, but first we need to have the obligatory, "But it actually
> goes back to the 1970s or earlier!" discussion, haina?

I'll start looking at Gore Vidal's works...


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:47:10 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:47:10 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bb95fdaee2d8@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.094710.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> This is pronounced "yo (as in yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum) + "ee" as
> in "peek")? That's all I can get out of [jooj], allthough the "oo"
> (in place of [o:] adds even more mystery.
>
> If [j] equals the "j" of "judge" and "oo" equals the "oo" of "moose,"
> I might get "jooj" (is that right?), but why the brackets?

That was Bravo's brackets, not mine. They pronounce it on the show like
the vowel of nudzh. I don't think they're remotely aware of phonological
and phonetic conventions


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 14:31:37 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:31:37 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <20030923133545.GA19058@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.103137.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:35 AM -0400 9/23/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
>out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
>can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
>need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
>concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
>word.


Not to speak for others, but at one point even I was driven to spell
perfectly good words like "motherfucker" with an asterisk.  It was
during an interval when I had to borrow a computer whose installed
version of Eudora (5.something, I think) insisted on asking me every
time I typed what it considered an off-color word whether I wanted my
keyboard washed out with soap.  In the end, I just put in the
asterisks (or used deliberate misspellings that I elaborated in my
ads-l postings--of course I don't send such messages to anyone
else!).  Now I'm back to my good old first-amendment-respecting
Eudora 4.3.2.  Some of the "motherf*ckin" offenders (or
non-offenders) on the list may just be afflicted with one of the
Ashcroftian versions of Eudora.

Larry


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:34:31 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:34:31 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <20030923133545.GA19058@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.103431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 23 Sep 2003, at 9:35, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
> the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
> word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
> we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
> sense.

Sorry for having forgotten about OED's change of policy, Jesse.
Am I correct in thinking that this change was motivated in part by
the availability of a great deal of new documentary evidence that
put many "illogical" orderings right?

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:42:11 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:11 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <3F7021B7.17850.44D08B6@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.104211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 10:34:31AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> On 23 Sep 2003, at 9:35, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > This is no longer OED's policy; we now give words in the order of
> > the evidence, regardless of what our expectations are for the
> > word's development. We do add notes if necessary to explain why
> > we think that something may have derived from a later-attested
> > sense.
>
> Sorry for having forgotten about OED's change of policy, Jesse.
> Am I correct in thinking that this change was motivated in part by
> the availability of a great deal of new documentary evidence that
> put many "illogical" orderings right?

That's a nice plus, but the main reason was just the more-descriptive
reason that our role should be to give the evidence, not start to
jockey the senses around to fit our impression of what the sense
development must have been. Also, more experience shows that what
we expect often doesn't match up with what's out there, even with
bigger databases.

An example from the revised public ranges of such an approach is

meat-axe...<note>The literal meaning at (2) is likely to
be the original use in English.</note>

1. A crude, violent, or drastic approach....
1831-

2. _lit._ An implement with a heavy blade used for cutting meat...
1833-

(Of course, this was a relatively early entry in terms of
availability of databases, so I'm sure by the time the day is
out Barry will have ensured that sense 2 is antedated by
several generations. But there are other examples.)

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 14:44:32 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:44:32 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bb96084dcc89@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.104432.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 10:31:37AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
> At 9:35 AM -0400 9/23/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> >
> >In passing, can I just ask that in situations like this we spell
> >out the words in question? We're all adults here, and I think we
> >can all handle seeing "motherfucker" spelled in full. But if I
> >need to search the archives, I don't want to have to try to
> >concoct every typographically euphemized variant of an offensive
> >word.
>
> Not to speak for others, but at one point even I was driven to spell
> perfectly good words like "motherfucker" with an asterisk.  It was
> during an interval when I had to borrow a computer whose installed
> version of Eudora (5.something, I think) insisted on asking me every
> time I typed what it considered an off-color word whether I wanted my
> keyboard washed out with soap.  In the end, I just put in the
> asterisks (or used deliberate misspellings that I elaborated in my
> ads-l postings--of course I don't send such messages to anyone
> else!).  Now I'm back to my good old first-amendment-respecting
> Eudora 4.3.2.  Some of the "motherf*ckin" offenders (or
> non-offenders) on the list may just be afflicted with one of the
> Ashcroftian versions of Eudora.

I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms. It
really does interfere with our ability to have proper discussions
about these topics.

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 23 15:24:14 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:24:14 -0400
Subject: a chicken, a drag and 96
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.112414.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Landau's message of the other day reminded me that I had left a loose end after my original posting.  I had noted "I do not find "social vagrant" in the on-line OED."  I also haven't found it in the LATimes before this particular episode, nor after, except in a few follow-up stories regarding the people involved.  Evidently it was a euphemism concocted by someone at this time, one that never took hold.

Jim remarked "I find it difficult to believe that "reciprocal anal intercourse" is physically possible."  I suppose that "reciprocal" does not imply "simultaneous".

He further pointed out that "M-W, both 10th and 11th Collegiates, dates "606" as 1910.  "606" is one of the names of the drug arsphenamine, the first drug specific against syphilis---it refers to it being the 606th drug tested for activity against syphilis.  Is it possible that this group of transvestites named their organization "The Anti-Syphilis Club"?" --

Perhaps not an "ANTI-Syphilis Club" -- there was a notorious gay bar in late 19th C NYC called Paresis Hall.  (Though I doubt that that was the name on whatever licenses the bar carried.)  I also recall, vaguely, probably from reading about James Boswell, who was frequently clapped, that among rounders of the 18th century, gonorrhea was accepted, or passed off as, "an honorable scar of battle".  Perhaps the "606 Club" was a wry allusion to the likelihood of contracting syphillis through such activities as the club encouraged?  I will say that an allusion to syphillis would seem to me to be counterproductive in a pick-up line.

As I recall, "Paresis Hall" is discussed at some length in Gay New York : gender, urban culture, and the makings of the gay male world, 1890-1940, by George Chauncey (1994).  I can't put my hand on my copy and don't recall whether he supposes that the patrons called it that.  There is also an interesting glimpse in "A Cop Remembers", by Cornelius Willemse, early 1930s.  Willemse was a cop who before he joined the force had been the bouncer in a low bar across the street from Paresis Hall.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 15:58:31 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:58:31 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.115831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20030923/2a6801f8/attachment.htm>

From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Sep 23 16:03:32 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:03:32 -0700
Subject: Eudora's Mood Watch; was, Re: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <200309231444.h8NEigDj023610@mtaw3.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.090332.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower wrote of "Ashcroftian versions of Eudora" (in Larry
Horn's memorable turn of phrase):

>I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
>or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms.

I can only speak to the matter of the Mac implementation, but
Eudora's Mood Watch is intended to discourage people from sending
potentially offensive messages *contrary to their own preferences*.
It's best seen as a cyber-Jiminy Cricket whom one can enclose in a
sound-proof jar if desired, although it's a feature, not a bug.

I believe that in the default setting - I may have changed it on my
machine - it simply displays questionable vocabulary in dark red and
puts one to three chilies next to the Send button in proportion to
the words' naughtiness and number, and then on queuing the message it
asks confirmation that despite the potential for offense (three
chilies = the keyboard/soap query) the user actually wants to send
the text unaltered.

Regardless of the defaults, disabling the feature entirely is a
matter of unchecking a single box in Special->Settings->Mood Watch,
and it's very easy to customize its range of application and
stringency as well.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 23 16:20:44 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:20:44 -0400
Subject: Dickhead
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030923115827.0245d9d0@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.122044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan said:
At 10:44 AM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:

I think we should all make an effort to not use such programs,
or at least to figure out how to defeat their nannyisms. It
really does interfere with our ability to have proper discussions
about these topics


In defence of Eudora 5.1, which I use all the time, it's very easy to
turn the Nanny off, and you can say anything any time you like and
the program won't notice.  I have a colleague named Marie Draper
Dykes, and I very quickly got tired of Eudora flagging every message
that she sent me, not to mention every message that mentioned her.
She just rolls her eyes...

Geoff

PS  Instructions on how to turn it off available upon request.

Wotthehell, Geoff, let's just tell them to check the MoodWatcher
settings panel. I have mine set to alert but not to nag, because I
find it amusing to see what words the program is programmed to altert
you about.



--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep 23 16:37:03 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:37:03 -0700
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309230942080.7729@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.093703.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 06:44 AM, Steve Kl. wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>> We have evidence for a variety of spellings, but _tjuzs_ is
>> not one of them. And I think I'm going to ignore it this
>> time as well.
>
> The only reason I brought this one up is that it's from the Bravo
> website,
> which is the official site of the show which spawned it.

the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.

steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.

an outside possibility is the Polari word <shush>.  see paul baker's
Polari - The Lost Language of Gay Men.

or someone could ask carson (from Queer Eye) if he remembers where he
first heard the word.

it could, of course, be an invention.  onomatopoetic, suggesting
smoothness.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 16:48:31 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:48:31 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.124831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 09:37:03AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
> spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.
>
> steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.
>
> an outside possibility is the Polari word <shush>.  see paul baker's
> Polari - The Lost Language of Gay Men.
>
> or someone could ask carson (from Queer Eye) if he remembers where he
> first heard the word.
>
> it could, of course, be an invention.  onomatopoetic, suggesting
> smoothness.

Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic about the dating--we _do_ have
evidence back to the 1970s. And it is in Baker--I don't have _Polari_
handy, but in the Polari section of _Fantabulosa_ he spells it
_zhoosh, jhoosh_, with six different senses as noun and verb, plus
the derived adjective _zhooshy_.

I think the spellings we have now include

zhush
zhuzh
zhoosh
zhoozh

Whoops, looking for these other spellings I now see an example
from 1968 in British use.

We don't seem to have any non-glossarial evidence for spellings
in j-, but my eyes are starting to cross.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 23 17:05:16 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:05:16 -0400
Subject: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.130516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> the spelling is pretty clearly deliberately bizarre.  i would have
> spelled it <zhuzh>, with <u> representing the [U] of <book>.

That would have been my guess, too.

> steve suggests looking at gore vidal's works.  not very likely.

That was actually a joke. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. I'll be
sure to emotigloss next time. :)

-- Steve


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 01:18:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:18:44 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.211844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brand-spanking-new word division:

Iraqification

Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
don't suppose I should play favorites.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 01:52:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:52:42 EDT
Subject: Yammish (sweet potato knish)
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.215242.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The NEW YORK PRESS "Best of New York 2003" issue has come out.  The 
VILLAGE VOICE will have its version in about two weeks.
   As I've said before, NEW YORK PRESS (and its new publication, NEW YORK 
SPORTS EXPRESS) has some faux hip writing that's just mean and unnecessary.  The 
selections are not attributed to a specific writer, and that's probably wise.  
Some of the text mentions drug use, working for porn magazines, shoplifting 
and other activities, completely "gratuitous" for any "Best Of" issue you'll 
ever read.
   There's a Food & Drinks "Best Of," of course.  
   "Yammish" doesn't have many Google hits, but it might be worth noting.
   
    
http://www.nypress.com/16/39/bestof/east.cfm
  
Best 24-Hour Yammish
H&H Midtown Bagels East
1551 2nd Ave. (betw. 80th & 81st Sts.), 212-734-7441
  
Wishes upon all those knishes. For native New Yorkers, there are only three 
types of knishes: potato, kasha and sweet potato. Sure there are spinach, 
broccoli and even cheese and fruit-filled knishes?but we leave them for the 
tree-hugging types. While we always enjoy the potato, and no one can argue with 
kasha, our favorite is the "yammish"?the sweet potato knish. For what is sweet 
potato, if not a type of yam?
  
The Romanian Rabbi Yonah Schimmel was the first to grasp the importance of 
the sweet potato delicacy, and his store has sold untold numbers since opening 
on Houston St. in 1910. But they?re not available to us 24 hours a day, leaving 
vampire types hanging and hungry late at night. 
  
Over to our friends at H&H Midtown Bagels East, where the gracious staff 
(especially manager Zahid Hassan) understands us when we order a yammish. They 
heat it up just right, allowing us to slice it in half and shmear that mustard 
right in the middle. Nothing tastes as sweet?especially since they?re delivered 
directly from Yonah Schimmel! They also carry a full line of bagels and 
pastries, baked fresh, 24 hours a day.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Sep 24 02:40:36 2003
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:40:36 -0500
Subject: New! emotigloss; was Re: tjuzsing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309231303280.22737@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.SEP.2003.214036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>That was actually a joke. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. I'll be
>sure to emotigloss next time. :)
>
>-- Steve

I just googled this. NO matches! I like it!

Barbara


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Sep 24 04:53:11 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:53:11 -0400
Subject: "haggies" from a 2000 posting about the Bronx
In-Reply-To: <001d01c37ef6$2c254340$1323a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.005311.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>      25.  Haggies or No Haggies...When someone bought a box of candy, you
> would yell haggies and he would have to share with you unless that person
> had shouted no haggies first

There are other forms, e.g., "wackies". These are equivalent to the more
common "dibs" ... which I believe is likely short for "divide" or "divvy"
(the request is to "divvy up" the treat) ... so just maybe "haggies" and
"wackies" are from "hack"/"whack" = "cut [into shares]". These juvenile
terms are old, I think, and the original item to be divided might have been
something like an apple more often than a box of candy ... maybe.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 05:53:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:53:47 EDT
Subject: Absinthe, Anisette, Beauvais, Bucella, Chartreuse (1819)
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.015347.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Subject: History of Absinthe and Travarica"

   The above is the subject of a recent discussion in rec.food.historic.
   OED has "absinthe" (the drink) from 1842...My old friend George W. Bush
flew into the neighborhood today, and I thought he'd enjoy some French wine.
   See:

http://www.absinth.com/links/history.html
   Modern absinthe allegedly was invented in 1792 by an extraordinary French
doctor called Pierre Ordinaire, who fled France's revolution to settle in
Couvet, a small village in western Switzerland. On his periodic journeys by
horseback, Dr. Ordinaire is said to have discovered the plant Artemisia absinthium
growing wild in the hills of the Val-de-Travers region. Like most country
doctors, he prepared his own remedies, and being acquainted with absinthe's use in
ancient times, he began experimenting with it.


(ANCESTRY.COM)
   15 September 1819, THE TIMES (London, Middlesex, England), pg. 4?, col. 4:
White Knights, near Reading.--By Mr. HAWKES, on the Premises, on Tuesday,
September 28, and following days, at all, by order of the Sheriif of Berks,
   A Genuine and capital Stock of costly Foreign Wines, of rich and exquisite
flavour, rare and superior liqueurs and cordials, Arbois, Alba Flora,
Alicant, Anisette, Absinthe, Arrack, Bucellas, Brandy, Claret, Cyprus, Constantia,
Chartreuse, Chablis, Cote Torie, Carbonnieux, Champagne, Cercial, Curacoa,
Frontignac, Hermitage, Hock, Madeira, Malaga, Moselle, Mountain, Neifchatel, Noyau,
Preniac, Beauvais and Almeida Port, Paccarcte, Picoli, Rosolie, Rhenish,
Ratafia, Sherry, Santa Maria, St. Peres, Sauterne, Tokay, Vin de Grave,
Usquebaugh, and Xeres.  Catalogues, (without which no one can be admitted) may be had 7
days previous to the sale, at half-a-crown each, of Wm. Payne, Esq.
Maidenhead; Mr. Knight, Windsor; Rose-inn, Wokingham; White Lion Hartford-bridge;
Bush-inn, Staines; the Auction Mart, London; and of Hawkes and Co., appraisers,
Reading.


(OED has 1837 for "anisette."  Merriam-Webster's 11th has 1836...OED has 1836
for "bucellas," from Charles Dickens...OED has 1866 for "chartreuse"
liqueur...OED has 1885 for the earliest "Beauvais" entry...OED has one 1842 citation
for "Vin de Grave"...The rec.food.historic discussion mentions "cana," which I
just recently posted here...Wednesday's (today) NEW YORK TIMES has a story on
the "tailgate party."  No dates are given, and my "tailgate" work is not
mentioned...More parking tickets and another wasted day today--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 07:23:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:23:22 EDT
Subject: "Suck up and kick down" (1997)
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.032322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Look, he was a Rhodes Scholar.  They suck upwards and kick downwards."
--Andrew Sullivan today on Wesley Clark, at www.andrewsullivan.com


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:davidpug%40online.no+">David C. Pugh</A> (<A HREF="mailto:davidpug%40online.no">davidpug at online.no</A>)
Subject: Re: Eleventh Century Islam
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=soc.history.medieval">soc.history.medieval</A>
Date: 2001-11-06 07:11:05 PST
(...)
  From John Reed to Archie Bunker, so to speak. From "let'scrush the
parasitic rich" to "let's crush the parasitic poor". Suck upwards, kick downwards. In
Europe we used to call that fascism.....


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:davidpug%40online.no+">David C Pugh</A> (<A HREF="mailto:davidpug%40online.no">davidpug at online.no</A>)
Subject: Re: Manufactured grievances? (Was: Re: Isreal.....)
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.callahans">alt.callahans</A>
Date: 2003-08-14 02:00:51 PST
(...)
The formulation "suck upwards, kick downwards" hit the spot, she actually got
it. My finest hour :-)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:jeffno%40blackburn.ccs.neu.edu+">Jeffrey Nowakowski</A> (<A HREF="mailto:jeffno%40blackburn.ccs.neu.edu">jeffno at blackburn.ccs.neu.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Tom Holub is a big white supremacist (was Re: something)
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.games.netrek">rec.games.netrek</A>
Date: 1998/06/18
(...)
> Remember Newton's third law "Kick down and suck up". In that aspect> I
guess you made some notches on the clue ladder thanks to the above> comment.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:d3marten%40dtek.chalmers.se+">M}rten R}nge</A> (<A HREF="mailto:d3marten%40dtek.chalmers.se">d3marten at dtek.chalmers.se</A>)
Subject: Re: Help how can I get this nettrek game
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.games.netrek">rec.games.netrek</A>
Date: 1998/01/18
(...)
   However if your team loses and a player got high numbers tof,acc,cak and
def quickly post a letter where you clearly pointout, that apart frm generally
sucky team play, the reason that your team lost was because of mr. Suck here,
just look his stats, I mean was he bought by the other team? Remember Newton's
2nd law; kick down and suck up.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:hkilpatr%40osf1.gmu.edu+">HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.</A> (<A HREF="mailto:hkilpatr%40osf1.gmu.edu">hkilpatr at osf1.gmu.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Bums in the woodwork.
Newsgroups: &lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.rush-limbaugh">alt.rush-limbaugh</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.fan.rush-limbaugh">alt.fan.rush-limbaugh</A>
Date: 1997/07/11
(...)
This was just another right wing attack on the poor and: >helpless.  Of
course, you whiney right wingers all suck up and kick down.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_04.24.97/news_views/naked.html
> T. Remember the motto of all successful journalists: "Suck up and kick
> down."


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Sep 24 14:09:27 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:09:27 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <p04320403bb969ff6443c@[130.132.231.171]>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.100927.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:18 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Brand-spanking-new word division:
>
>Iraqification
>
>Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
>September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
>Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
>with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
>note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
>Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>
>larry


Safire's column this coming Sunday deals with this. We received hundreds of
emails on it, the overwhelming majority choosing Iraqification as well


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Sep 24 14:48:30 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:48:30 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030924100735.00b21570@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.104830.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Iraqification
>> ........... there are also six
>>Nexis hits on "Iraqization"...........
>>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>>
>>larry
 ~~~~~~~~~
I think more than just sound comes into this: there is a greater political
truth involved as well.  Unless my own sense of these suffixes is wrong,
there is a greater suggestion of arising from within in /-ization/, whereas
/-ification/ carries a sense of an outside agency bringing about  the
change.  It certainly looks like we're trying to avoid the former while
effecting the latter!
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Sep 24 16:33:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:33:18 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.123318.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what, about 40 years old?
   From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=20962&city=1


09.23.03
DailyCandy Lexicon V

In the proud tradition of swish, drailing, flossin', and mitin, we present the DailyCandy Lexicon V, wherein we take the illustrious English vocabulary and give it a little DailyCandy shake.

The bon mots of the moment are:

spenny:
Pricey; short for "expensive." (Sure I like that place, but it's kinda spenny.)

NUMP/NUWT:
Obnoxious party-invite acronyms, as in No Ugly Men, Please/No Ugly Women, Thanks.

e-mauling:
Stalking someone via e-mail.

guyatus:
A hiatus from guys. (Thanks, but no thanks. I'm kind of on guyatus.)

scum:
Self-Centered Urban Male. Know any?

fifty-footer:
Someone who looks really attractive from 50 feet away. Closer examination reveals ...

KISS:
Keep It Simple, Stupid.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 16:44:16 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:44:16 -0400
Subject: WOTY candidate(s):  Iraqification, Iraqization
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030924100735.00b21570@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.124416.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 09:18 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>Brand-spanking-new word division:
>>
>>Iraqification
>>
>>Nexis has one hit from the Observer in April, the other 5 from
>>September, including the one in today's Times that got me going.
>>Interesting column that compares today's (planned) "Iraqification"
>>with the "Vietnamization" of an earlier conflict some of us recall;
>>note the contrast in suffixes.  As it happens, there are also six
>>Nexis hits on "Iraqization", all from June to September of this year.
>>I prefer "Iraqification" on (I think) phonological grounds, but I
>>don't suppose I should play favorites.
>>
>>larry
>
>
>Safire's column this coming Sunday deals with this. We received hundreds of
>emails on it, the overwhelming majority choosing Iraqification as well

Well, I'm glad I beat the rush.

L


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Sep 24 16:56:24 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:56:24 -0700
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
In-Reply-To: <6412A989.6656AF3F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.095624.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 09:33 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what,
> about 40 years old?
>    From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.

i can vouch for 33 years.  KISS appeared on a student evaluation of a
colleague's teaching in 1970.  it was the first time i'd heard it, but
it was clearly current among students and professors in my
institution's college of education, where it served as a teaching
slogan.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Sep 24 17:01:14 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:01:14 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.130114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I first heard KISS/Keep It Simple, Stupid from a teacher in 1972 or 1973, so it's at least 30 years old.  He said that he had learned it in the Marine Corps.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:33 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5


   It's lame.  "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is here.  That's only, what, about 40 years old?
   From yesterday's (22 September 2003) NEW YORK SUN.


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=20962&city=1


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 24 17:08:36 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:08:36 -0400
Subject: Absinthe, Anisette, Beauvais, Bucella, Chartreuse (1819)
In-Reply-To: <73.354038f7.2ca28b6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.130836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:53 AM -0400 9/24/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>"Subject: History of Absinthe and Travarica"
>
>...
>http://www.absinth.com/links/history.html
>    Modern absinthe allegedly was invented in 1792 by an extraordinary French
>doctor called Pierre Ordinaire, who fled France's revolution to settle in
>Couvet, a small village in western Switzerland. On his periodic journeys by
>horseback, Dr. Ordinaire is said to have discovered the plant
>Artemisia absinthium
>growing wild in the hills of the Val-de-Travers region. Like most country
>doctors, he prepared his own remedies, and being acquainted with
>absinthe's use in
>ancient times, he began experimenting with it.
>
I always wondered where "vin ordinaire" came from...

L


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Sep 24 18:11:03 2003
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:11:03 -0400
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon #5 (E-Mauling)
In-Reply-To: <6412A989.6656AF3F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.141103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> e-mauling:
> Stalking someone via e-mail.

This is one of those stunt mutations in search of a usage. It's been
repeatedly submitted to the Jargon Watch column since at least 2001
(with few reliable cites), always meaning something different: being
bombarded by junk mail, being verbally attacked via email, and being
hit on/stalked via email. Nice to know that sometimes these silly
coinages won't  stick no matter how much people try to promote them.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Sep 24 21:48:05 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:48:05 -0400
Subject: Language Removal
Message-ID: <WED.24.SEP.2003.174805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Found on BoingBoing.net, which writes,

"Language Removal project: stump-speeches without any words
The Language Removal project edits political speeches to remove all the
words, leaving only the uhs humms and errrs. They've got a page of
California guberantorial hopefuls grunting and clicking -- it's cool,
you can sort of make out their positions better this way."

http://www.languageremoval.com/recall.html

Grant


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 12:48:39 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:48:39 EDT
Subject: Bloody Mary
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.084839.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called "Bloody Mary" because
she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody" because so many
people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.

Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in British English, are
British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as "Bloody Mary"?

               - Jim Landau

"When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean I like your
bloody cheek!"
    - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"


From bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Sep 25 13:21:19 2003
From: bj4 at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Barbara Johnstone)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:21:19 -0400
Subject: Discourse Studies position at Carnegie Mellon
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.092119.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Rhetoric Program in the Department of English at Carnegie Mellon
University invites applications for a tenure-track position in the area of
discourse studies. The Department is looking for an outstanding teacher and
scholar/researcher who does work in the structures and strategies of written
and spoken discourse. Special competencies may include but are not limited
to one or more of the following: critical and deliberative discourse, public
health communication, argumentation, public and community discourse,
sociolinguistics, or intercultural rhetoric.

We are especially interested in candidates at the Assistant level, but will
consider highly qualified individuals at the untenured and tenured Associate
levels.

The Rhetoric Program supervises a B. A. in professional writing, a B. S. in
technical writing, an M.A. in professional writing, an M. Design in
communication planning and information design (joint with the School of
Design), and an M.A. and Ph.D. in rhetoric. The English Department also
offers B.A.s in creative writing and in English, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in
literary and cultural studies.

Qualifications:
Ph.D. in hand by the time of appointment in Rhetoric, Linguistics,
Communication Studies, or closely related field (e.g., American Studies,
Anthropology, Cognitive or Social Psychology, Cultural Studies, Law,
Philosophy). The Department will prefer candidates with successful teaching
experiences, research and publication records, and interdisciplinary skills
appropriate to teaching and publishing in rhetoric. The Department will also
prefer candidates who, in addition to teaching in their specialization, can
teach in our general curriculum (e.g., Rhetorical Traditions),  both at the
undergraduate and graduate levels.

The successful candidate is expected to establish a strong research program,
demonstrate excellent teaching performance, and contribute to professional
and public service. Duties include: teach and develop undergraduate and
graduate courses; supervise graduate student research; develop a research
program; participate in faculty governance; participate in department,
university, professional and public service. Candidates for Associate
Professor will possess academic credentials to qualify for a tenured faculty
appointment at Carnegie Mellon.

Appointment, Rank, and Salary:
Nine-month, tenure-track position; rank of assistant professor; possibly
tenured or untenured associate; competitive salary. The teaching load is two
courses each semester. Starting date is Fall, 2004.

Application Procedure:
Send letter of application that includes a statement of career goals within
the context of the position, a curriculum vitae, and three letters of
reference to:

Professor David S. Kaufer
ATTN:  Discourse Studies Position
Department of English
Baker Hall 259
Pittsburgh, PA 15213

Application Deadline:
Review of applications will begin  on November 1, 2003 until the position is
filled.  The deadline to insure full consideration is postmarked by November
1, 2003.

We plan to make a preliminary selection of potential candidates early in
December and hope to meet with any of those candidates attending the Modern
Language Association meeting in San Diego in December. Other potential
candidates who are not attending the MLA meeting will be contacted by
telephone. We anticipate campus interviews in January.

Carnegie Mellon University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action
employer. For further information about department and university, see:
http://english.cmu.edu.



________________________________

Barbara Johnstone
Professor of Rhetoric and Linguistics
Department of English
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890

bj4 at andrew.cmu.edu
phone/voicemail 01.412.268.6447
fax 01.412.268.7989
http://english.cmu.edu/people/faculty/homepages/johnstone/default.html


From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Sep 25 14:17:17 2003
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:17:17 -0600
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <118.29429099.2ca43e27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.081717.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910




> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of James A. Landau
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Bloody Mary
>
>
> My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> "Bloody Mary" because
> she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> because so many
> people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
>
> Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> British English, are
> British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> "Bloody Mary"?
>
>                - Jim Landau
>
> "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> I like your
> bloody cheek!"
>     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Thu Sep 25 15:38:26 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:38:26 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.113826.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?

T.M.P.
www.paikeday.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Bloody Mary


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
>
> Victoria
>
> Victoria Neufeldt
> 727 9th Street East
> Saskatoon, Sask.
> S7H 0M6
> Canada
> Tel: 306-955-8910
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society
> > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > Of James A. Landau
> > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Bloody Mary
> >
> >
> > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> > "Bloody Mary" because
> > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> > because so many
> > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
> >
> > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> > British English, are
> > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> > "Bloody Mary"?
> >
> >                - Jim Landau
> >
> > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> > I like your
> > bloody cheek!"
> >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 18:24:58 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:24:58 -0400
Subject: Fakir (1975); Municipality of Wind (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.142458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAKIR

   OED has 1882.

   21 June 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 4:
      _Our Street Fakirs.*_
   The fakirs here meant are neither Persian dervishes nor Hindoo ascetics.  Fakir is the technical term for a street-peddler--the men who, behind their stands at the street-corners, solicit by voice and gesture the patronage of the public.
(...)
*Mayhew, the only writer on this subject, uses the term Fakement to designate a statement drawn up for the purposes of deception; hence the word Fake--goods made for the street sale, so the vender is called Fakir.

---------------------------------------------------------------
MUNICIPALITY OF WIND

   8 March 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 5:
      _The Mayor's Movements._
   Mayor Johnston and his "next friend," Quinn, the Roofer, returned from Chicago yesterday morning.  The train was due here early, but was detained by the trifling circumstances of a "jump off" two hours this side of the City of the Lakes, and a much more emphatic adventure on a bridge near Richmond.
(...)
   In Chicago both gentlemen met,...
   What they didn't see, we venture to wager, in that five hours wasn't worth seeing in the Municipality of Wind.


   25 February 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1:
   _INDIANAPOLIS LETTER._
(...)  They read the Chicago papers; are proud of Chicago's prosperity; believe in Chicago wind; trust in Chicago; and swear by Chicago; but when it comes to cutting up the glorious State of Indiana to accommodate Chicago they will rebel.


   6 February 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 2:
      _CHICAGO BLOWING._
   _The Wind-Swept, Fire-Scorched and Frozen_
      _City--Nice Place to Live._


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Thu Sep 25 18:59:12 2003
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:59:12 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <002101c3837b$104e7860$c7706395@thomaspaikeday>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.145912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, "bloody" did use to be a swear word--counted among the many words
relating to the death of Christ and thus considered profane, including
"zounds" (short for "God's wounds"). Nowadays it has about the same impact
as saying "damned."

But to get back to the original question, Bloody Mary is so named because
of her reputation for having Protestants killed (she didn't physically kill
them herself--queens have other people to do the nasty work for them)--and
yes, schoolchildren call her that without a second thought. I doubt they
even connect it with the "swearing" use of "bloody," which most of them
employ frequently enough!

Wendalyn Nichols

At 11:38 AM 9/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
>teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
>adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?
>
>T.M.P.
>www.paikeday.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
>Subject: Re: Bloody Mary
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
> >
> > Victoria
> >
> > Victoria Neufeldt
> > 727 9th Street East
> > Saskatoon, Sask.
> > S7H 0M6
> > Canada
> > Tel: 306-955-8910
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: American Dialect Society
> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> > > Of James A. Landau
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Subject: Bloody Mary
> > >
> > >
> > > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
> > > "Bloody Mary" because
> > > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
> > > because so many
> > > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
> > >
> > > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
> > > British English, are
> > > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
> > > "Bloody Mary"?
> > >
> > >                - Jim Landau
> > >
> > > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
> > > I like your
> > > bloody cheek!"
> > >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 19:06:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:06:36 -0400
Subject: Hoochnoo (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.150636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TYPING MISTAKES:  "Fakir" is from "1875," not 1975.  Also, in yesterday's post, the day before was September "23," not September 22.

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOOCHNOO

   OED has 1877 for "Hoochinoo."  I'm not allowed to copy from the bound volumes.  (The LOC didn't microfilm these early years of the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER.)  Perhaps this long article is also on Ancestry?


   12 July 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
_The Alaska Indians and Whisky._
      WASHINGTON, D. C., July, 1875.
   The following interesting letter written by a prominent citizen of British Columbia has been officially communicated to the United States Government:
      VICTORIA, February 5, 1875.
Colonel Q. W. Powell, Commissioner of Indian Affairs in British Columbia:
   SIR:  I beg leave to present you a bottle of whisky distilled by Indians residing near Sitka, Alaska.  It is made from molasses, and known among them as "Hoochnoo." (...)
   The Hoochnoo I send you is within five per cent. of proof, and meets all the requirements of first-class fire-water.  They make it from molasses and sugar, with potatoes added, and the proper season can use all the sweet berries of which the country furnishes an abundance. (...)
   H. GASTIN.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Sep 25 19:32:15 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:32:15 -0400
Subject: Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030925144846.00ab8ba0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.153215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding is that 'bloody' refers not to Christ (or his blood) but
to Mary: "by our Lady" --> "bloody" by elision.

At 02:59 PM 9/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Actually, "bloody" did use to be a swear word--counted among the many words
>relating to the death of Christ and thus considered profane, including
>"zounds" (short for "God's wounds"). Nowadays it has about the same impact
>as saying "damned."
>
>But to get back to the original question, Bloody Mary is so named because
>of her reputation for having Protestants killed (she didn't physically kill
>them herself--queens have other people to do the nasty work for them)--and
>yes, schoolchildren call her that without a second thought. I doubt they
>even connect it with the "swearing" use of "bloody," which most of them
>employ frequently enough!
>
>Wendalyn Nichols
>
>At 11:38 AM 9/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yeah, otherwise "My Fair Lady" wouldn't have used it. I remember one of my
>>teachers (a Presbyterian Scot) warning us never to use the word as an
>>adverb. He apparently dared not give examples! Maybe he thought it obscene?
>>
>>T.M.P.
>>www.paikeday.net
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Victoria Neufeldt" <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 10:17 AM
>>Subject: Re: Bloody Mary
>>
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>header -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>> > Subject:      Re: Bloody Mary
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-----
>> >
>> > 'Bloody' isn't obscene in British English.
>> >
>> > Victoria
>> >
>> > Victoria Neufeldt
>> > 727 9th Street East
>> > Saskatoon, Sask.
>> > S7H 0M6
>> > Canada
>> > Tel: 306-955-8910
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: American Dialect Society
>> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
>> > > Of James A. Landau
>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:49 AM
>> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > > Subject: Bloody Mary
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > My daughter wants to know whether Mary Tudor was called
>> > > "Bloody Mary" because
>> > > she killed so many people or acquired the nickname "Bloody"
>> > > because so many
>> > > people disliked her and used "Bloody" as a perjorative.
>> > >
>> > > Also, considering that "Bl**dy" is an obscene term in
>> > > British English, are
>> > > British schoolchildren allowed to refer to Mary Tudor as
>> > > "Bloody Mary"?
>> > >
>> > >                - Jim Landau
>> > >
>> > > "When I say I like your ruddy complexion, that doesn't mean
>> > > I like your
>> > > bloody cheek!"
>> > >     - W. S. Gilbert, to someone who objected to the name "Ruddigore"
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> > Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 21:25:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:25:37 -0400
Subject: Hoochnoo (1875); Shyse (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.172537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HOOCHNOO (continued)

   12 July 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
(Should read "in the proper season."  I'll add another paragraph--ed.)
   It was first made at an Indian ranch called "Hoochnoo," in Admiralty Island, from which it took its name.  The indians soon learned the secret of its manufacture, and communicated the knowledge from one to another, until now all know it.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SHYSE

   OED does not have "shyse."  The HDAS stops at the letter "O" for now, but perhaps this helps.


   4 October 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
      _"Queer" People._
(...)  Three $5 bills of the "queer" were found on their persons. (...) On searching a trunk six more of the "shyse" bills were found.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 25 22:13:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:13:01 -0400
Subject: Joker card (1875)
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.181301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED appears to have 1885 for the "joker."  ("The Joker" was not coined by the Steve Miller Band.)


   28 November 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 1:

_FAKIRS AND FAKING._

_The Science of "Beating the Gillies"_
   _Illustrated._

_Three-Card Monte, "Head Faking," The "Case,"_
   _"Box Rocket," "Ring-Board," &c._

(...)
   The "baby," the "joker," the "old man" are samples of the titles lavished upon this card.
(The third card in three-card monte--ed.)
(...)
   A "capper," or in other words a man who lures the victims to their fate, keeps a lookout at the door of the side-show or on the lot outside for subjects who appear sufficiently green to be easily robbed.
(...)
   The trick of marking the cards is sometimes varied by the dealer himself turning an edge of the "joker," or, in slang phrase, "crimping" it.
(...)
   The "ringed finger" is the sland phrase that designates the finger that is used in this performance.
(...)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Sep 26 01:21:44 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:21:44 -0500
Subject: "shyse" in the 1865 Cincinnati Enquirer
Message-ID: <THU.25.SEP.2003.202144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 5:25 PM -0400 9/25/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>SHYSE
>
>    OED does not have "shyse."  The HDAS stops at the letter "O" for
>now, but perhaps this helps.
>
>    4 October 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
>       _"Queer" People._
>(...)  Three $5 bills of the "queer" were found on their persons.
>(...) On searching a trunk six more of the "shyse" bills were found.


  This is an alternate spelling of cant "shise" (from German, where it
has the basic meaning "excrement"), possibly under the influence of
the -y- in "shyster." In 19th century British (American too?) cant,
"shise" was used to mean "something worthless (e.g., worthless
merchandise); nothing; worthless; no good."
I saw at least several attestations of it in the 1865 _Leaves From
The Diary of A Celebrated Burglar and Pickpocket_. Here's one example
I have handy; the reference is to a thief's "moll":
(p.63): 'He had striven much to civilize her during the time she had
been with him, but 'twas "no bottle" [G. Cohen: = nothing doing, no
dice]--she couldn't "collar" the idea.  Whatever else she could
"collar" was natural to her, but all the "kid" he could use on her
was, as he said afterwards, "chucked away for 'shise.' 'Twarn't in
the red headed cow."'

    Btw, Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_ presents the
spellings "shise" and "shice."

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 26 08:53:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:53:28 EDT
Subject: Celery Salt (1874)
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.045328.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Kraig said his research shows that Italian and Greek hot dog stand vendors
competed for business by loading up a dog with more stuff back around 1920.
This explains why a Chicago-style hot dog has traditional German elements
(mustard, celery salt and sour pickles) in addition to Mediterranean add-ons
(tomatoes, hot peppers, relish).
--CHICAGO TRIBUNE, September 5, 2003 (previously posted)


   "Celery salt" (from 1876) was posted in the archives.  This citation is a
little earlier.  It's listed as a "new invention."
   From my CINCINNATI ENQUIRER search today.  Again, John Mariani's
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) states that "celery salt" was first
advertised in the 1897 Sears, Roebuck catalog.  He's never wrong.


   14 May 1874, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 2:
      _Royal Celery Salt._
   This is a new invention, and consists of desiccated or prepared Celery,
put up in a powdered form, so that we may now really have this delicious relish
on our tables the year round.
   The Royal Baking Powder Co., N. Y., are sole proprietors and patentees of
this new condiment.  It is put up in elegant cruets, and sold by grocers for
25 cents each.  The bottle alone is worth the money.


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 26 09:09:08 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:09:08 -0700
Subject: war lingo
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.020908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"It has been told to the officers I have spoken to
that 3rd PERSCOM refers to moving soldiers as 'drug
deals.' You do this for me and I'll make sure your
soldiers go home, etc."
--http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0924-09.htm


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Fri Sep 26 14:37:44 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:37:44 -0500
Subject: mongo/mungo
In-Reply-To: <2992A978-EDE4-11D7-B5F0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.093744.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robin Nagle, who is researching a book on NYC sanitation workers, is
curious about the origin of the word mongo (or mungo), meaning
something found in the trash that the sanitation worker decides to
keep.

There's an entry at 'mongo' in HDAS, but it's fairly terse. (There's
a cite from a New Yorker article of 1984 (Sept. 24) and from "In the
Cut" by S. Moore, 1995.) I couldn't find anything in the ADS-L
archives.

Does anyone have any further information on this word that they could
share with Ms. Nagle? She's especially interested in any other words
to describe the same or similar things, and if there are regional
variants. Please reply to her directly as she does not read the ADS
list.

Thanks!

Erin


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Fri Sep 26 15:20:37 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:37 -0700
Subject: worldwide accents of English
In-Reply-To: <20030926090908.85646.qmail@web41415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.082037.0700.>

a small sample of English accents

the design of the web page needs work ;)

http://www.gazzaro.it/accents/files/accents2.html


Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Sep 26 15:55:26 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:55:26 -0400
Subject: Joker card (1875)
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.115526.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have the following notes, the first seeming to refer to the shell-game itself, the second referring figuratively to the pea that is the hidden object in the shell-game.

1846:   Playing the little "Joker."  [headline]  [A rube visits a] "crib" in Park Row, where . . . the "boys" were playing the thimble rig, commonly called the little Joker.  New York Herald, February 8, 1846, p. 1, col. 4

1855:   So dexterously are the cup and balls shifted by the party leaders, . . . that the rank and file of the different cliques can't tell where the "little joker" is. . . .  Q. K. Philander Doesticks [Mortimer Neal Thomson], Doesticks: What He Says, N. Y.: Edward Livermore, 1855, p. 271.

HDAS: 1856 (ref. to the pea)); OED?, but under Joker, 3a, has 1858 quote: The thimble-rigger?s ?little joker?, from OWHolmes

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:13 pm
Subject: Joker card (1875)

>   OED appears to have 1885 for the "joker."  ("The Joker" was not
> coined by the Steve Miller Band.)
>
>
>   28 November 1875, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 9, col. 1:
>
> _FAKIRS AND FAKING._
>
> _The Science of "Beating the Gillies"_
>   _Illustrated._
>
> _Three-Card Monte, "Head Faking," The "Case,"_
>   _"Box Rocket," "Ring-Board," &c._
>
> (...)
>   The "baby," the "joker," the "old man" are samples of the
> titles lavished upon this card.
> (The third card in three-card monte--ed.)
> (...)
>   A "capper," or in other words a man who lures the victims to
> their fate, keeps a lookout at the door of the side-show or on the
> lot outside for subjects who appear sufficiently green to be
> easily robbed.
> (...)
>   The trick of marking the cards is sometimes varied by the
> dealer himself turning an edge of the "joker," or, in slang
> phrase, "crimping" it.
> (...)
>   The "ringed finger" is the sland phrase that designates the
> finger that is used in this performance.
> (...)
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 26 19:12:11 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
Subject: ADS hotel rates
Message-ID: <FRI.26.SEP.2003.151211.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.

I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
(including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have them
cheaper (AAA rate).


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Sep 27 14:42:34 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:42:34 -0400
Subject: worldwide accents of English
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.104234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan and Luanne should put their oar in these waters.  USA and Canada get
short shrift.  There is nothing from the mountain south or the piedmont,
nothing from New England, north central or southwest or midlands.  This
site surely (as advised) needs work.

David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Sep 27 16:45:13 2003
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:45:13 -0400
Subject: worldwide accents of English
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017947883b9aca00d9b2b9a0.17947a6@chain.highland s.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.124513.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Black English is also terrible, Brooklyn is bad, and the "General
American" doesn't sound like anyone I know.  I can only assume the British
and Irish voices are OK.

At 10:42 AM 9/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Joan and Luanne should put their oar in these waters.  USA and Canada get
>short shrift.  There is nothing from the mountain south or the piedmont,
>nothing from New England, north central or southwest or midlands.  This
>site surely (as advised) needs work.
>
>David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
>The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
>Lexik at highlands.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Sep 27 21:59:17 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:59:17 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <200309221758.h8MHw8L27009@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.175917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
files any earlier citations than 1984?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Sep 27 22:32:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:32:22 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.183222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

Christine Ammer in The Am. Heritage Dic of Idioms says it comes from the
1940's.  No cite of course.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 00:23:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:23:11 EDT
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.202311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Happy (Jewish) New Year.
   Just back from a visit with the family...My cousin has two beautiful,
smart daughters.  One is a junior at Yale.  The other--17 and more of a knockout
than Cameron Diaz--just scored 760 and 800 on her SATs.  She's applying to
Yale.  Lucky Yale!  Hot dog!  That school would be nothing without me and my
family!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HOOKER

   Yes, "hooker" is wrong again today.  Does someone hide dictionaries and
internet search engines from journalists?  And when a newspaper is informed of
an error, can't they simply correct it?
   Do you have to sue them to tell the truth?


   27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, col. 1:
_Spare the Blushes_
_At the National Mall_
   DALE McFEATTERS
   IF Abaham Lincoln had been looking out over the National Mall on Sept. 4,
he would have seen a gyrating Britney Spears being partially undressed by male
dancers in Redskins jerseyd.
(...)
   So when Lincoln looked out on the Mall, what did he see?
(...)
   And swarms of prostitutes.  Union Gen. Joe Hooker, while refitting the
Army of the Potomac in Washington, tried mightily to chase them away from his
soldiers.  (For his troubles, his name became a slang common noun for
practitioners of the oldest profession.)
(...)
E-mail: McFeattersD at SHNS.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
JOJO POTATOES

   Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE or PUCK from ProQuest.  Only about 10 more months
until August, when promised.
   NYU now has FACTIVA available again, without need for an NYU ID.  Here's
"jojo potatoes," FWIW.  A Seattle, Washington specialty?


(FACTIVA)
LIFESTYLE
Goldenrod eggs breakfast from past
Marcia O. Burg
958 words
9 May 1990
Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph
D3
(...)

DEAR MARCIA: Can you provide me with a recipe  for Jo-Jo potatoes, which I
tasted in Springfield, Mo.?   - Mary Browning, Colorado Springs

The last time we published a method for making these  crispy browned wedges -
Sept. 28, 1988 - I understood the  dish was a Seattle Wash., specialty.
Apparently it's gone  national!

JO-JO POTATOES

6 large unpeeled baking potatoes, thoroughly scrubbed

Salad oil

Garlic salt, paprika and/or other herbs or herb mixtures  (no monosodium
glutamate)

Halve potatoes lengthwise, then cut each half in 4 wedges. Parboil 5 minutes;
drain well, and brush cut surfaces lightly  with oil. Sprinkle with
seasonings and bake in preheated  350-degree oven till tender, golden brown and crisp.
Serve  hot as a snack or side dish.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Sep 28 00:38:25 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:38:25 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.203825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Before 1984...

See Wentworth and Flexner (c. 1960) and Partridge (c. 1984 "WW2").

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Sep 28 00:23:24 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:23:24 -0500
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <001401c38547$39a6a2a0$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.192324.0500.>

Is "Shit or get off the pot" generally interpreted as meaning the same thing
as "Fish or cut bait"?

Herb (or recent thread)

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Sam Clements
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:32 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


Fred,

Christine Ammer in The Am. Heritage Dic of Idioms says it comes from the
1940's.  No cite of course.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"


> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:05:32 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:05:32 -0400
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.210532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

When did "broasted chicken" become a phrase?  That might be a clue.  Here in
Northern Ohio chicken and JoJo's only come together.  And I think they were
here in 1972 when I arrived.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 8:23 PM
Subject: Hooker & JoJo (Potatoes)


>    Happy (Jewish) New Year.
>    Just back from a visit with the family...My cousin has two beautiful,
> smart daughters.  One is a junior at Yale.  The other--17 and more of a
knockout
> than Cameron Diaz--just scored 760 and 800 on her SATs.  She's applying to
> Yale.  Lucky Yale!  Hot dog!  That school would be nothing without me and
my
> family!
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---------------------------------------------
> HOOKER
>
>    Yes, "hooker" is wrong again today.  Does someone hide dictionaries and
> internet search engines from journalists?  And when a newspaper is
informed of
> an error, can't they simply correct it?
>    Do you have to sue them to tell the truth?
>
>
>    27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, col. 1:
> _Spare the Blushes_
> _At the National Mall_
>    DALE McFEATTERS
>    IF Abaham Lincoln had been looking out over the National Mall on Sept.
4,
> he would have seen a gyrating Britney Spears being partially undressed by
male
> dancers in Redskins jerseyd.
> (...)
>    So when Lincoln looked out on the Mall, what did he see?
> (...)
>    And swarms of prostitutes.  Union Gen. Joe Hooker, while refitting the
> Army of the Potomac in Washington, tried mightily to chase them away from
his
> soldiers.  (For his troubles, his name became a slang common noun for
> practitioners of the oldest profession.)
> (...)
> E-mail: McFeattersD at SHNS.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---------------------------------------------
> JOJO POTATOES
>
>    Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE or PUCK from ProQuest.  Only about 10 more
months
> until August, when promised.
>    NYU now has FACTIVA available again, without need for an NYU ID.
Here's
> "jojo potatoes," FWIW.  A Seattle, Washington specialty?
>
>
> (FACTIVA)
> LIFESTYLE
> Goldenrod eggs breakfast from past
> Marcia O. Burg
> 958 words
> 9 May 1990
> Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph
> D3
> (...)
>
> DEAR MARCIA: Can you provide me with a recipe  for Jo-Jo potatoes, which I
> tasted in Springfield, Mo.?   - Mary Browning, Colorado Springs
>
> The last time we published a method for making these  crispy browned
wedges -
> Sept. 28, 1988 - I understood the  dish was a Seattle Wash., specialty.
> Apparently it's gone  national!
>
> JO-JO POTATOES
>
> 6 large unpeeled baking potatoes, thoroughly scrubbed
>
> Salad oil
>
> Garlic salt, paprika and/or other herbs or herb mixtures  (no monosodium
> glutamate)
>
> Halve potatoes lengthwise, then cut each half in 4 wedges. Parboil 5
minutes;
> drain well, and brush cut surfaces lightly  with oil. Sprinkle with
> seasonings and bake in preheated  350-degree oven till tender, golden
brown and crisp.
> Serve  hot as a snack or side dish.
>


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:13:02 2003
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:13:02 EDT
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.211302.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred:

I am a mere lurker here - especially because I enjoy Barry's food research. 
But just for fun, I did a search on google and here is something I found that 
may or may not be correct:

<A HREF="http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/675.html">http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/675.html</A>



Posted by ESC on November 30, 2002 at 23:38:26:
In Reply to: Re: All about sh*t posted by ESC on November 30, 2002 at 
20:22:59:

: : : : : : I am doing an English assignment on shit, I have heard a history 
of it meaning: Ship High In Transit. Does anyone know of any other meaning? 
Please get back to me soon as my project is due on Monday Dec.2, 2002. Thank 
you!!!!

: : : : : There are folk derivations of various swearwords in the form of 
acronyms. For example, 'for unlawful carnal knowledge'. These are nonesense. 
Swearwords are just words like any others. For some reason, probably to do with 
coyness, some people prefer to invent spurious origins for them.

: : : : : According to the Oxford English Dictionary the word comes from the 
Old English:

: : : : : scite - dung and/or scitte - diarrh?a. 

: : : : I wonder if there's any connection to the Greek skatos, also meaning 
dung?

: : : My OED traces it only as far back as Old Norse and Middle Low German. 
The American Heritage Dictionary, however, refers it to the Proto-Indo-European 
root "skei-," to cut, split, whose descendants include "science" and 
"conscious" (L. "scire," to know, from "to separate one thing from another," 
"discern") and "schedule" and "schizo-" (Gr. "skhizein," to split).

: : It's "Schei?e" in German - very similar indeed.

SHIT ? ?From the Indo-European root ?skei,? ?to divide,? comes the Old 
English ?scitan,? ?to defecate,? that is the ancestor of our word ?shit.? ?To 
shit? thus means strictly to divide or cut (wastes) from the body.? Page 609. 
?Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins? by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on 
File, New York, 1997).

??the Old English ?scitan,? to defecate, befoul, was spelled ?shite? by 
the 14th century and ?shit? by the 16th century. Until the late 19th century, 
however, written uses are so few that we don?t know what expressions ?shit? 
was used in?? Page 314. ?I Hear America Talking? by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von 
Nostrand Reinhold Co., New York, 1976).

??Shit,? as slang for nonsense or lies, is an Americanism probably first 
used by soldiers during the Civil War as a shortening of ?bullshit,? another 
Americanism that probably goes back 30 years or more earlier, though it is first 
recorded, in the form of its euphemism ?bull,? in about 1850.? Page 609. ?
Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins? by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, 
New York, 1997).

?Then in the 1870s, such terms as ?to fall in the shit? (to get in trouble) 
and the exclamation ?shit and corruption!? were recorded. Also in wide use 
between the 1870s and the 1890s were such seemingly modern terms as ?shit? and ?
bullshit? meaning ?nonsense, rubbish, lies? (chicken shit? and ?horseshit? 
were recorded in the 1930s); ?the shits,?? diarrhea? ?shit pot? and ?shit 
face,? both referring to a contemptible person (followed by ?shit head? 
around 1915); ?to shit on someone,? to treat someone badly; and ?to beat the shit 
out of? someone. By 1910 ?shit or bust,? to do or die, was common and so was ?
shit or get off the pot,? a vulgar rephrasing of the old New England ?fish 
or cut bait,? meaning to do something or let someone else try, do something or 
give up. By 1918 S.O.L. was a common abbreviation for the older ?shit out of 
luck.? In World War I the old rural term ?shithouse??became a popular soldier?
s term for latrine?World War II introduced such expressions as ?shit list,? 
a black list, a mental list of disliked people; ?shit on a shingle,? creamed 
chipped beef on toast; and saw the increasing popularity of all obscenity and 
scatology, including ?shit heel? for a contemptible person?? Page 314-315. ?
I Hear America Talking? by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von Nostrand Reinhold Co., New 
York, 1976).

?There was such a fantastic increase in the use of ?f**k,? ?screw? and ?
shit? during World War II that it almost seemed no serviceman could complete a 
sentence without using one of them. This armed forces use and acceptance of 
these words spread to many segments of the population during and after the war, 
helped by veterans bringing their vocabulary to college campuses, a wartime and 
postwar lessening of social restrictions, increasing social mobility, new 
concepts of free speech, the ?sexual revolution? of the 1950s and 60s, and the 
Women?s Liberation movement since the late 1960s.? Page 158. ?I Hear America 
Talking? by Stuart Berg Flexner (Von Nostrand Reinhold Co., New York, 1976).


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:20:35 2003
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:20:35 EDT
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.212035.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, I apologize - I copied the entry onto notepad and pasted it but it didn't
work. I'll ask Barry to send it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:36:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:36:32 EDT
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.213632.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was searching the Ancestry.com newspapers for "Fluky" and "Chicago" and
"mustard" and this nice "Flappers' Dictionary" came up.


   14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
pg. 4?, col. 4:
OFFICE CAT
BY JUNIUS
COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
   _The Flappers' Dictionary._
Shifter:  A Grafter.
Lemon-squeezer:  Subway car.
Dipe-ducat:  A subway ticket.
Snugglepup:  A young man who attends petting parties.
Petting Party:  A party devoted to hugging.
Fire-Alarm:  A divorce woman.
Police Dog:  Young man to whom one is engaged.
Cuddie-cootie:  Young man who takes girl riding on a bus or in a Ford.
Stander:  Victim of a female grafter.
Slat:  A young man.
Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
Cake-basket:  A limousine.
Dimbox:  A taxicab.
Dropping the Pilot:  Getting a divorce.
Noodle juice:  Tea.  (Not in RHHDAS?--ed.)
Dogs:  Feet.
Dog Kennels:  Pair of Shoes.
Cake-eater:  Harmless lounge-lizard.
Lounge-Lizard:  An expert gent on the sofa; a society man.
Oil Can:  Unsophisticated young man.
Flat-wheeler:  One who is stingy or broke.
Crape-hanger:  A reformer.
Wheeping Willow:  Same as crape hanger.
Nosebaggery:  A restaurant.  (Not in RHHDAS, but it has "nosebag" from
1873--ed.)
Finale-hopper:  Young man who arrives after everything is paid for.
Nut-cracker:  Policeman's nightstick.
Stilts:  Legs.
Boob-tickler:  Flapper who has to entertain her father's customers from out
of town.
Monologuist:  Young man  who hates to talk about himself.
Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
Hates:  Loves.
Obituary notice:  Dunning letter.
Face Stretcher:  Old maid who tries to look young.
Apple sauce:  Flattery.
Necker:  Young man who holds flapper's check to his neck in dancing.
Corn-shredder:  Young man who dances on his partner's feet.
Dumbell:  A dumb guy.
Dumdora:  A dumb girl.
Lalapazazer:  A good sport.
Whangdoodle:  Jazz band music.
Edisoned:  Being asked a lot of questions.
Father Time:  Any man over 30 years of age.
Pillow Case:  Young man who is full of feathers.
Feathers:  Light conversation.
Rock of Ages:  Any woman over 30 years of age.
Strike breaker:  Young woman who goes with her friend's steady while there is
a coolness.
Show case:  Rich man's wife with her jewels.
Hen coop:  A beauty parlor.
Mad money:  Money she takes along to pay carfare home in case of a row.
Airdale:  A Homely man.
Bean picker:  One who patches up trouble and picks up spilled beans.
Cancelled stamp:  A wall flower.
Walk in:  Young man who goes to party without being invited.
Mustard Plaster:  Unwelcome guy who sticks around.
Sod-buster:  An undertaker.
Smith Brothers:  Guys who never cough up.
Blushing Violet:  A publicity hound.
Cellar-smeller:  Prohibition enforcement officer.
Umbrella:  Young man any girl can borrow for an evening.
Johnnie Walker:  Guy who never hires a cab.
Orchid:  Anything that is expensive.
His blue serge:  His sweetheart.
Hand cuff:  Engagement ring.
Eye-opener:  A marriage.
Embalmer:  A bootlegger.
Fire-extingujisher:  A chaperone.
Whiskbroom:  Any man who wears whiskers.
Crubber:  One who always borrows cigarettes.
Fluky:  Funny, odd, peculiar, different.
Barneymugging:  Love making.
Munitions:  Face Powder and rouge.
Trotzky:  Old lady white mustache and chin whiskers.
Absent treatment:  Dancing with bashful partner.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Sep 28 01:46:46 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:46:46 -0400
Subject: "Shit or Get Off the Pot"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309271753580.3769-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.214646.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 05:59:17PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> Jesse, Jonathon, Tom, Barry, Joanne, etc.:
> The earliest occurrence on Nexis for "shit or get off the pot/off of the
> pot" is Newsweek, 16 Apr. 1984 (by Richard Nixon, repeating something he
> said he said to Dwight Eisenhower in 1952).  Does anyone have in their
> files any earlier citations than 1984?

Jeez, tons, going back at least to 1934 just among the files that I have
available. Pre-1984 cites include such notables as Allen Ginsberg (in
many different sources), Iceberg Slim, John Le Carre, etc.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 03:37:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:37:39 EDT
Subject: Canned Willie (1908 "Slang of the Sailor")
Message-ID: <SAT.27.SEP.2003.233739.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was looking through Ancestry.com for "canned willie."  This entire
article is worth reading.


   24 October 1908, DENTON JOURNAL (Denton, Maryland), pg. 1, col. 7:

_SLANG OF THE SAILOR_

_The Lingo That Is Used by Uncle_
   _Sam's Bluejackets._

_MANY QUAINT EXPRESSIONS._

_The Man-of-war's Man May Be a_
   _"Snowdigger" or a "Sloper," but He_
   _Uses the Language of Every Other_
   _Sailor._

   There is a language that is neither English nor American, down east nore
southern, western nor Yankee.  It is just sailors' lingo.
   No matter what part of the country may be the birthplace of a bluejacket
or what his language at home, sooner or later he uses the language of every
other sailor.
   To the civilian a conversation between two bluejackets about his life on
shipboard is hardly intelligible.  The other day on the water front two sailors
were overheard talking, says the San Francisco Bulletin.
   "Oh, he's nothing but a beach comber.  He was run up for breaking it once
and got sent to the pie wagon," said one of them.
   "I heard he got six months and a bob before he come here," replied the
other.
   A small boy standing near asked what all those things meant.  The sailors
were in a good humor and explained.
   "'Beach comber,' lad?  Why, that's a fellow who hangs around a saloon
ashore and never wants to work.  'Breaking it' is staying overtime on shore, and
'run up' is brought to the mast for offenses.  The 'pie wagon' is the place
where they put prisoners, and 'six months and a bob' is sentenced to six months
in prison and given a dishonorable discharge."
   There are many other terms and expressions that do not show their meaning
on the surface.
   A "rookie" is a recruit.  A man who "ships over" enlists again.  A man who
is on the report for mast call is "down for a chance."  Canned beef is known
as "canned Willie," and a bottle of liquor is a "dog."  All things lost on
shipboard are put in a room called the "lucky bag."  An honorable discharge is "a
big ticket," and desertion by a sailor is "jumped."  When the mail arrives on
board and is ready for distribution "mailo" is the cry which carries the
news.  A ship's carpenter is called "chips," a coppersmith "coppers," a blacksmith
"blacky" and the chief of  the engineering department "the chief."
   When a ship is traveling at sea it is "seagoing," and if it hurries it is
"making knots."  A prison on shore is a "stone frigate."  When a man is
disrated to a lower rating he is "busted;" when he deserts and voluntarily gives
himself  up within a period of six months he is a straggler; when he is sitting
next the dealer in a friendly game of "draw" he is "under the gun;" when he is
continually quoting the naval regulations he has "swallowed the blue book,"
and when he thinks he knows more about the blue book than the captain he is a
"sea lawyer."
   "Pipe down" means in American slang "shut up."  "Shove off, Jack," is a
hint to move on.  When a man is dishonorably discharged he gets a "straight
kick."  A sailor who draws more pay "draws more water."  One who talks  too much
"blows off at a low pressure."
   Wednesday afternoon, when the crew overhaul their clothing, is "rope yard
Sunday."  Any part of the United States is called "God's country," and the man
from the eastern coast is a "snowdigger," while his brother tar from the west
is called "sloper."  The duty of calling the men in the morning falls to the
master at arms, and he says "show a leg" or "rise up and shine."  When a man
has had no night watch and gets up in the morning with a good appetite it is
"all night in and beans for breakfast."
   One of the more familiar sea terms is "caught a crab," meaning caught an
oar in the water.  When a sailor has several enlistments to his credit he is
called "a sea dog" or "an old salt."
   A gentle hint from one sailor to another that he does not believe
something which is being told to him is "tell it to a marine."  To re-enlist is to
"slip over," and when more than half the enlistment is in a sailor is "going
downhill."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 05:10:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:10:23 EDT
Subject: F (Fail) = N (Nearly)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.011023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For the OED, which is revising the letter "N" entries.
   Fail?  There's no such word as "fail."  Why, I don't even know the meaning
of the word "fail."


   27 September 2003, NEW YORK POST, pg. 19, cols. 3-4:
      _Rue, Britannia_
   IN Britain, where the kinder, gentler approach to education holds sway,
students sitting the nationwide examinations in English, math and science will
no longer be permitted to fail.  As of this year's exams, the previous grade of
"F" for "fail" will be replaced by "N" for "nearly."  Similarly, individual
answers in the math exam are no longer to ge graded as correct or incorrect,
but as "credit-worthy" or "not credit-worthy."
   Pressed by a reporter, the spokeman for the government's Qualifications
and Curriculum Authority allowed that, yes, "not credit-worthy" would then mean
"wrong."  He left the impression, though, that this hurtful truth would be
kept hidden from students.
   --_The editors of National Review, writing in the Ocr. `3 issue_.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Sep 28 06:15:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:15:20 EDT
Subject: Root Beer Float, Chop Suey Sundae (1906)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.021520.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1915 for "ice cream float."  "Float" is not mentioned at all in
John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   "Chop Suey Sundae" was one of the more popular of the soda fountain treats
in the early 1900s.  It's perhaps useful for the word study of "chop suey."


   7 June 1906, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 5?, col. 6:
      _New Drinks at Our Fountain_
(...)
      _A Few of the New Ones:_
_Chop Suey Sundae, 5c._
   A great one.  Why not come and see just what it is?  Immensely popular all
last week.
_Trenton Trilby, Delicious, 5c._
   Another new to this city.  Ger acquainted with Trilby.
_Root Beer Float, 5c._
   The name will give you some idea of it, but it takes a taste to give you
full apreciation.
_Tutti-Frutti Ice Cream Soda, 5c._
   This week's new offering.
 (...)
Philadelphia Grocery Co.

   3 August 1909, EVENING NEWS (Ada, Oklahoma), pg. 1, col. 6:
   Root Beer Float
"Ramsey's"


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Sep 28 12:45:05 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:45:05 -0400
Subject: "Size Doesn't Matter"
In-Reply-To: <200309280146.h8S1klw17972@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.084505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Tom, Barry, Jonathon, Joanne, etc.:
The earliest occurrence in Nexis I can readily find for the sexual meaning
of "size doesn't matter" is dated 1989.  Can anyone supply earlier usage
of this?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 28 13:27:05 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:27:05 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309280842470.26548-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.092705.0400.>

Found the following. Despite the questionable nature of the journal, it's an
excellent history of the origin of "Murphy's Law."

http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume9/v9i5/murphy/murphy0.html


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Sep 28 19:02:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:02:56 -0500
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.140256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.

2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
    "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."

Gerald Cohen

-----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
 14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
pg. 4?, col. 4:
OFFICE CAT
BY JUNIUS
COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
   _The Flappers' Dictionary._
...
Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
...
Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
...


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Sep 28 20:07:50 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:07:50 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <3B5C402402A66D4CB0E65C20AFC01847436623@umr-mail3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.160750.0400.>

 
> Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I 
> don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's 
> Dictionary of Slang_.

Perhaps it's a variant of "to blow."


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:04:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:04:22 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.180422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
     Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
    So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
style...........89 cents.

What do you make of that?
SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
>
> 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated
column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
[Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly
last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
>     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
>  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> pg. 4?, col. 4:
> OFFICE CAT
> BY JUNIUS
> COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
>    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> ...
> Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> ...
> Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> ...
>


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:09:50 2003
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:09:50 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.180950.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:07:50 -0400 Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> writes:
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I
> > don't see this term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's
> > Dictionary of Slang_.
>
> Perhaps it's a variant of "to blow."

Could it relate to the military slang "hat up" (c. mid-60s)?  When you
went outside, regulations required you to be "covered", i.e., to have a
hat on. Thus "hat up" meant to leave.

So maybe ...

D


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 22:51:55 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:51:55 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.185155.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A further note about the 1922 "flapper dictionary."

It must have been an actual book as I can find cites in multiple newspapers
from 1922, using ancestry.com, citing words and their meanings from a
"flapper dictionary."

Latest one of interest, though not an antedating, was from the Eyria(OH)
Chronicle Telegram.

Crasher:  An uninvited guest.

HDAS has the same meaning only from 1921(Variety).

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
> Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
>      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
>     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
> style...........89 cents.
>
> What do you make of that?
> SC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see
this
> term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> >
> > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's
syndicated
> column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g.
in
> St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
> the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
> [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment
Weekly
> last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
> her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to
Huffington].
> >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
> > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > OFFICE CAT
> > BY JUNIUS
> > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > ...
> > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > ...
> > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > ...
> >
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Sep 28 23:30:46 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:30:46 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): An antedating: "bee's
 ankles"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.193046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More from the Elyria(OH) cite for "flapper dictionary."(1922)

       The bee's ankles:  All right, very good.

(Wow!)  HDAS has "Bee's knees" from 1923.  Guess the phrase was moving 'up'
in the world from its start.

Also, perhaps another antedating:

              The Elyria paper has "Slummers:  Girls who
               attend studio parties."

I doubt that they were there for philanthropic or charitable purposes.  So
this may be an antedating.  I'll leave it to Jesse to figure out.






----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
go);"sweetie"


> A further note about the 1922 "flapper dictionary."
>
> It must have been an actual book as I can find cites in multiple
newspapers
> from 1922, using ancestry.com, citing words and their meanings from a
> "flapper dictionary."
>
> Latest one of interest, though not an antedating, was from the Eyria(OH)
> Chronicle Telegram.
>
> Crasher:  An uninvited guest.
>
> HDAS has the same meaning only from 1921(Variety).
>
> SC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com,
the
> > Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
> >      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
> >     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
> > style...........89 cents.
> >
> > What do you make of that?
> > SC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> > To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
> > go);"sweetie"
> >
> >
> > > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see
> this
> > term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> > >
> > > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's
> syndicated
> > column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g.
> in
> > St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington
in
> > the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
> > [Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment
> Weekly
> > last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and
burying
> > her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to
> Huffington].
> > >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> > >
> > > Gerald Cohen
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> > >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville,
Illinois),
> > > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > > OFFICE CAT
> > > BY JUNIUS
> > > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> > >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > > ...
> > > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > > ...
> > > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > > ...
> > >
> >
>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Sep 29 00:48:19 2003
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:48:19 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
 go);"sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <001901c3860c$79d15f80$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.204819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not really sure what such a suit would look like, but my oldest brother
(b. 1927) was photographed at 4 or so in a suit jacket, short pants, and
blousy white shirt with a big bow tie.  This could be at least close to the
intended "look."

At 06:04 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In the same year(1922) and in the same state(IL), using ancestry.com, the
>Decatur(IL) Review has an ad saying:
>      Boys' Khaki flapper Suits, 89cents
>     So much wanted two-piece suits , blouse and pants in flapper
>style...........89 cents.
>
>What do you make of that?
>SC
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to
>go);"sweetie"
>
>
> > Two items in the 1922 Flappers' Dictionary caught my attention:
> > 1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
>term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.
> >
> > 2) "Sweetie"--anything a flapper hates. -- Cf. Ellen Goodman's syndicated
>column today: "California--Arnold goes mano-a-womano' big mistake." e.g. in
>St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/28/2003, sec. B, p. 3/1.
> > The article concerns Schwarzenegger's comments to Arianna Huffington in
>the debate a few days ago.. Goodman writes: "We know how you
>[Schwarzennegger] bragged about creating this scene to Entertainment Weekly
>last July: 'How many times do you get away with taking a woman and burying
>her face in a toilet bowl?'" Now this? [His debate-comments to Huffington].
> >     "Arnold, sweetheart, get yourself rewrite."
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
> > -----Original Message----- (from Barry Popik, 9/27/2003)
> >  14 September 1922, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois),
> > pg. 4?, col. 4:
> > OFFICE CAT
> > BY JUNIUS
> > COPYRIGHT 1921 BY EDGAR ALLAN MOSE.
> >    _The Flappers' Dictionary._
> > ...
> > Blouse:  To go, as, "Let's blouse."
> > ...
> > Sweetie:  Anybody a flapper hates.
> > ...
> >


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Sep 29 02:43:50 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:43:50 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "bees knees" (1922)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.SEP.2003.224350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just so I do it officially, from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, April 28,
1922, p.17, column 4.   From a column titled "Flapper Dictionary"--

     BEES KNEES---Peachy, very nice.  Sometimes known as "The
     Berries."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 07:08:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:08:43 EDT
Subject: Dorf (1967); Drug His Feet
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.030843.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DORF

   The RHHDAS has 1975 for "dorf," from "Univ. Tenn. student."  I'm searching
Ancestry for teen slang.


   25 April 1967, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 10?, col. 4:
_Lynda Bird Johnson gives_
_glossary of hip new slang_
   Know what it means to "seek the sheets?"  Are you a "dorf?"  What's a
"closet case?"  Who's an "animal?"  Like "straight skinny?"  Have you ever "tubed
a test?"
   These, good buddies, are examples of contemporary college jargon according
to Lynda Bird Johnson, elder daughter of the president.
   In an article in the current issue of McCall's magazine Miss Johnson
provides a 16-(illegilbe--ed.) phrase glossary of campus slang for parents who find
it difficult to communicate with their children.
   For your info:  seek the sheets means to crawl in bed, go to sleep; a dorf
is a clod, nerd--an inept or unpleasant person; a closet case is a friend,
usually someone of the opposite sex, whom you don't want someone else to meet.
   An animal? that's an athlete or someone who looks muscle-bound.  Straight
skinny? the plain truth.  Tube a test? do poorly on an exam.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DRUG HIS FEET

   During the Jets Cowboys game on Sunday, from tv announcer Dick Stockton:

   "He dragged his feet.  I can't say drug, because that's not a word."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 07:37:12 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:37:12 EDT
Subject: Gobo, Oscar, Canaries, Baffle Blankets (1931)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.033712.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The RHHDAS has "canary" from 1937-41 Mencken AMERICAN LANGUAGE.
Obviously, Lighter didn't see this publication.  It's interesting, perhaps, also for
"Oscar."


   2 January 1931, HELENA INDEPENDENT (Helena, Montana), pg. 2, col. 5:
_LANGUAGE OF ITS_
_OWN GROWING UP_
_IN MOVIE WORLD_
      By ROBIN COONS
   Hollywood, Calif., Jan. 1.--(AP_--"The baby is lost but doesn't want
mother, and apples and dollies alike are subjects of indifference to it."
   You probably won't hear any movie technicians uttering a sentence like
that, but if you linger around a busy talkie set in a studio here you'll
certainly hear exclamations quite as puzzling--all now officially sanctioned by the
dignified Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, through its technical
bureau which today issued a "selected glossary for the motion picture
technician."
   The sentence given above, by the way, if utter nonsense, is still
fundamentally true.
   For the glossary reveals "baby" as a "small spotlight, arc or
incandescent;" "lost" is colloquial for "not functioning;" and "mother" is the impression
of the sound record matrix obtained by electroplating.  "Apple" is colloquial
for audio-frequency vacuum tube, and a "dolly" is any small rolling
platform--often used to permit or recede from a scene being photographed.
      _New Language_
   The new compilation is complete with its list of technical terms such as
"aeolight," "H and D curve" and "potentiometer"--we won't go into those--but
includes also the picturesque slang and colloquialism of the sets.  For
instance:
   _Baffle Blankets_--Felt, muslin-covered sheets hung about a set to absorb
sound.
   _Bug_--An insect that flies across the set during a take, usually spoiling
the scene.
   _Butterlfy_--SIlk cloth on frame used to soft light when making exterior
scenes.
   _Canaries_--Unidentified, high frequency noises in the recording system.
   _Dynamite_--An open connection box into which the studio lamps are
plugged--dangerous if stepped on.
   _Eagle_--Same as "bug"--but also (probably from the golf term) "a perfect
photographic take."
   _Gaffer_--Electrician in charge of a group of electrical workers.
   _Gobo_--Portable wall covered with sound-absorbing material, not intended
to be photographed.
   _High Hat--A very low camera stand.
   _Mike Stew_--Undesired sounds heard by the sound "mixer."  (The mixer's
the high mogul of recording, who sits in his sound-proof booth away from the set
and twists dials and screws to assure perfect recording.
   _Oscar_--Slang for oscillations.
   _Sing_--Undesirable high-frequency oscillations in the recording circuit.
   _Spider_--Portable electric switch and contact.
   _Whiskers_--A type of pulsation of intensity in reproduced sound.  Other
types are known as "flutters" and "gargles."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 09:41:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:41:00 EDT
Subject: Eagle (1921)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.054100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1922 for "eagle."
   I'm having a little trouble with "bogey"--too many questionable hits.
Merriam-Webster has 1948.


   24 June 1921, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 8, col. 8:
   They were all square at the 27th, when Jack got an eagle 3 while the
Louisville golfer floundered about and took a 6.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Sep 29 16:23:27 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:23:27 -0400
Subject: "Size Doesn't Matter"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309280842470.26548-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.122327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

We don't have anything earlier than OED does for "shit or get off
the pot."  Here's what I could find for "size doesn't matter" -- though
I'm not sure it's the meaning you're after:

  Because of her|diminutiveness, Janet bore the|brunt of many
jokes.  At the U.S. Long Course Nationals in August 1985, Tiffany
Cohen, a double gold medalist at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics
and the reigning U.S. dis-tance swimmer at the time,|snickered
when Janet hoisted herself out of a warmup pool. The 5'9", 139-
pound Cohen towered over the scrawny 5'1", 87-pound|upstart.
"That made me so mad," Evans says.  "I never saw myself as
being small.  Size doesn't matter as long as you can get to the end
of the pool faster than everybody else." "Meet a Small Wonder"

143 Jill Lieber SPORTS ILLUSTRATED  Vol. 69  No. 12
September 14, 1988

Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 16:59:03 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:59:03 -0400
Subject: New Michael Quinion Book
In-Reply-To: <3F78243F.2665.23981EEA@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.125903.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought people on this
list would be interested that Library Journal has a very favorable review
of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and Isms: A Dictionary of Word
Beginnings and Endings.  The review concludes: "Even if you think you know
the English language, you will learn a thing or two from this little
volume.  Easy to use, small enough to carry around, and chockfull of
useful information, this book is for anyone who truly loves language."

Congratulations, Michael!

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Sep 29 16:21:07 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:21:07 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "bees knees" (1922)
In-Reply-To: <003301c38633$848b94a0$d8601941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.122107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:43 PM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Just so I do it officially, from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, April 28,
>1922, p.17, column 4.   From a column titled "Flapper Dictionary"--
>
>      BEES KNEES---Peachy, very nice.  Sometimes known as "The
>      Berries."

And don't forget "the cat's meow"--all in my mother's (b. 1906)
lexicon.  She even wore a flapper-style dress, with a big bowtie, at her
wedding.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 18:40:32 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:40:32 -0400
Subject: another brand-newie:  "cruciflicks"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.144032.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No earlier hits on Nexis, or on google (except for one obscure one
turned up in the latter that I can't figure out).  It probably won't
have as long as a shelf life as "Iraqification", partly because it's
a plural with no singular.  But it is cute, I have to admit.

larry


==================================

The New York Times
  September 29, 2003, Monday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section E; Page 1; Column 1; The Arts/Cultural Desk

  LENGTH: 1133 words

  HEADLINE: Appeareth St. John, Quietly, Cautiously

  BYLINE:  By DANIEL J. WAKIN

  BODY:
  And before there was Mel, there was Garth.

  A movie about the life of Jesus has slipped in beneath the radar,
opening in four cities on Friday ahead of Mel Gibson's "Passion,"
which has been the subject of
  intense debate over its alleged anti-Semitism.

  The movie is "The Gospel of John," which was produced by the
Canadian impresario Garth H. Drabinsky and financed by a small
"faith-based media company"
  called Bible Visual International Inc. The director is Philip
Saville, a television veteran who has also made features, including
"Stop the World -- I Want to Get
  Off" (1966) and "Metroland" (1997). The best known member of the
relatively obscure cast is Christopher Plummer, who narrates.

  The Gibson production, which has no distributor, has been attacked
by a committee of Bible scholars who read a version of the script and
said it presented Jews
  as bloodthirsty "Christ killers." Mr. Gibson, who is affiliated with
a splinter Catholic group that rejects the modern papacy, has
defended the film as a
  reverential depiction of Jesus' final hours and rejects any
anti-Semitic intent.

  "The Gospel of John," while well received at the Toronto Film
Festival earlier this month, has entered the scene more quietly and
will not be released in New
  York or Los Angeles.

  Its makers have also taken pains to inoculate themselves against the
kind of criticism leveled at Mr. Gibson. They hired a team of
religious consultants,
  including two Jews, added an explanatory preamble and used a
translation of the Bible that they hoped would avoid problems. The
film's promoters point out
  that Mr. Drabinsky is Jewish, and note that by filming the Gospel in
its entirety they can hardly be blamed for writing anti-Semitic
material.

  Both "cruciflicks" (Mr. Saville's word) claim to be scrupulously
faithful to the life of Jesus, but there are significant differences.
"The Passion" screenplay is
  original, based on the Gospels and focuses on Jesus' final 12 hours.
The characters speak Aramaic and Latin. "The Gospel of John," on the
other hand, follows
  the scriptural text to the letter in a mix of British- and
American-accented English. "Every single word is in there," Mr.
Saville said by telephone from London.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Sep 29 20:31:08 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:31:08 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1921)
In-Reply-To: <b8.486392b4.2ca9582c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.163108.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    OED has 1922 for "eagle."
>
>    24 June 1921, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, pg. 8, col. 8:
>    They were all square at the 27th, when Jack got an eagle 3 while the
> Louisville golfer floundered about and took a 6.

Here's a further antedating:

1917 _New York Times_ 16 Sept. S6  [Nicholls] was down in par 4 at the
first, had an eagle 3 at the long second [etc.]

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 21:43:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:43:32 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1917)
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.174332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, and there's this one, also from ProQuest.  I was away from the ProQuest database, and it went down again today.  Still no updated material.



   BEATS 70 AT GOLF IN THREE TRIPS OF LINKS
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1917. p. 30 (1 page):
   The class of the golf played is indicated by the fact that the 635-yard sixteenth hole, probably the longest in the world, and with a par of six, was played twice in eagle 4's and the third time in birdie five.


From lvonschn at WISC.EDU  Mon Sep 29 21:35:52 2003
From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:35:52 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.163552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
From: RonButters at AOL.COM
Subject: ADS hotel rates
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.

I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
(including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have
them
cheaper (AAA rate).>>



Dear Ron and all,

As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.  What you can't see
from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.  The LSA has
guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
hotel.  If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.  So if
attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel but
through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.  Which
in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.  Organizations
all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
normal conference sign-up procedures.  Please give this a thought before
trying an alternative.

Thanks.

Luanne v S
(speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Sep 29 22:07:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:07:46 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.180746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "birdie" from 1921?
   FWIW:  There's a photo in today's newspaper of President George W. Bush playing golf.


   Birdie Handicap at Plainfield.
Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1911. p. C7 (1 page):
   PLAINFIELD, N. J., July 8.--Something new in golf was tried to-day at the Plainfield Country Club.  It was called a "Birdie Handicap."  Each player took his match play handicap and every hole in bogie counted 1 point, every one on par 2 points, and every hole below par 3 points.


   N.Y.A.C. WINS AT HOCKEY.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 28, 1912. p. 9 (1 page):
(Last sport article--ed.)
_BALTUSROL GOLF TOURNEY._
_Theodore H. Keer Leads Field In_
   _Two Cup Contest._
   More than seventy-five members of the Baltusrol Golf Club took part in the week-end competition which began on Saturday and continued until yesterday.  Theodore H. Keer led the field in both the Secretary's and Artic Cup contest, finishing only one down to bogey in the first named.
(...)
   Cranberry at present leads in the ringer competition with 12 "birdies."


   WOMEN'S GOLF BRINGS OUT NEW WINNERS
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1912. p. 11 (1 page):
   She won the "birdie" prize by getting the second, eighth, and eleventh holes under par, but two eighths and a seven were instances of other things happening.


       YALE ON LAKE CARNEGIE.
Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 24, 1913. p. 9 (1 page) :
(It's in a following sports story.  Yale can't take credit for everything--ed.)
   A prize was also offered for the greatest number of "birdies," or holes made in strokes less than bogey.


   Sargent and McLeod Qualify For Open Golf Championship
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1914. p. 8 (1 page):
   His putting was only fair, but hole after hole he got what the professionals call a "birdie" so that extraordinary work on the greens was not required to better par figures, which are 146 for a double round.


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Sep 29 22:27:59 2003
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:27:59 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.172759.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes BUT,
Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why can't they
go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in nearby
hotels.

I'm not involved here, but all too often no one price checks these
convention hotels.  You always hear, "They always treat us nice there"  "It
was a good price last year", or the year before or what ever. Sometimes the
society's travel agent is lazy or has a special relationship with certain
hotels.

In this age of price cutting net sites it doesn't seem unreasonable to be
more aggressive when booking a meeting.

>
>
> Dear Ron and all,
>
> As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.  What you can't see
> from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.  The LSA has
> guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
> hotel.  If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.  So if
> attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel
but
> through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.  Which
> in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.  Organizations
> all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
> normal conference sign-up procedures.  Please give this a thought before
> trying an alternative.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Luanne v S
> (speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Sep 29 22:45:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:45:30 -0700
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <003e01c386d8$f0a7e9e0$c41f4b3f@paulz>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.154530.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:27 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> Yes BUT,
> Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why
> can't they
> go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in
> nearby
> hotels.

but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.

arnold


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Sep 29 23:36:49 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:36:49 -0400
Subject: Flappers' Dictionary (September 1922): "blouse" (to go);
 "sweetie"
In-Reply-To: <3B5C402402A66D4CB0E65C20AFC01847436623@umr-mail3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.193649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>1) "blouse"--Why does "Let's blouse" mean "Let's go"? -- I don't see this
>term in HDAS or Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_.

This usage appears only in flapper-dictionaries. (^_^)

Assuming that it's not an error (typographical or otherwise) which was
copied by various newspapers etc., my best speculation is that this was
originally a military usage, with verb "blouse" meaning "put on one's
blouse [and {get ready to} go out]" (where of course "blouse" was and is
the uniform jacket worn by a US serviceman). This would be analogous to the
'intransitive' verb "suit [up]" = "put on one's suit" etc.

One of the flapper-dictionaries on the Web shows "blouse" = "leave" or so
distinguished from "blow [the joint]" = "blouse quickly" or so. FWLIW.

-- Doug Wilson


From lvonschn at WISC.EDU  Mon Sep 29 23:44:27 2003
From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:44:27 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <0HLZ00HI1Z86IC@smtp1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.184427.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:45 PM 9/29/03 -0700, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: ADS/LSA hotel rates
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 03:27 PM, paulzjoh wrote:
>
> > Yes BUT,
> > Shouldn't the sponsoring group negotiate the best price?  And why
> > can't they
> > go back to the hotel and renegotiate on information about prices in
> > nearby
> > hotels.
>
>but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
>that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
>drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
>for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.
>
>arnold

Thanks, Arnold.

The sponsoring group does negotiate the best price it can, for a conference
several years down the road.  Once you have a contract you can't pull out
of it or change it without penalty.  And would the nearby hotels have
enough rooms to accommodate all conference attendees?  Would they still
have meeting rooms available?  At this point the nearby hotels have also
made reservations with other clients so a large block of rooms is very
unlikely to be available, which is why conference planners, especially for
large conferences, must plan several years in advance, and in negotiating
they must give a figure for room nights, based on their experience with
past conferences.  If they don't meet the room night figure, they owe the
hotel.  There is a lot that goes into these negotiations.  This hotel
probably offered the best prices for the group at the time.  I can assure
you that LSA did not just take the first offer they received; they
conferred with these other hotels you are referring to, and probably with
ones in other east coast cities.  LSA probably also talked to similar
organizations to learn about their experiences in holding meetings in the
hotels LSA was considering, in order to give you the best conference
experience for your money.

You can't compare prices for a room or two (which don't include meeting
rooms and other services) with prices for a large block of rooms, which do
include meeting rooms and many other services.

Luanne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 00:48:05 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:48:05 -0400
Subject: Guatemaltecan Cookery (1887): Tostadas, Chile Relleno
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.204805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GUATEMALA:
THE LAND OF THE QUETZAL
by William T. Brigham
New York:  Charles Scribner's Sons
1887
Gainesville: University of Florida Press:
1965 reprint

   Guatamala was one of the first places visited on the grand Popik world tour (in 1998).  I went for the Mayan temples.  The cuisine wasn't a highlight.  As a joke/experience/safety measure, I "dined" at the Guatemala City Chuck E. Cheese.
   OED has only two citations from this book (for "dante" and "sapota").
   I'll get to Lafacadio Hearn's TWO YEARS IN THE FRENCH WEST INDIES (1890) in a little bit.  It has a large food section.  Again, OED has only two cites from it ("Madras" and "Martiniquais").


Pg. 86:  A Boston boy who has a fine coffee estate in the neighborhood came in as we were at dinner and initiated us into the mystery of _tortillas tostadas_.  Certainly by toasting, the tough, clammy, cold tortilla is made even better than new.

Pg. 185:  Almost worn out with sight-seeing, we stopped at a restaurant near by, and with our lunch had some native _cerveza negra_,--an unpleasant beer brewed from molasses.

Pg. 314:  Guatemaltecan cookery, although simplicity itself in its instalment, is excellent and wholesome,--none of the vile saleratus-bread, tough doughnuts, and clammy pies (I have great respect for a good tart) which are the curse of the country cooking of New England.  But let the comida consist of (Pg. 315) only tortillas, frijoles, and huevos; these staples are always well cooked.

Pg. 366:  Tomatoes grow everywhere, and are of great importance in the kitchen, next to the universal chile (_Capsicum annuum_).  Peppers of other kinds are used, especially a large green one which is stuffed with minced meat coated with egg and crumbs and served as _Chile relleno_.  Pawpaws (_Carica papaya_) are common (a small wild species is abundant on the Pacific coast); and the fruit, as large as a cantaloupe, and filled with pungent seeds like those of the tropaeolum, is eaten raw, or cooked in tarts.  Its juice is of the greates use in making tough meat tender.  The akee (_Blighia sapida_) is much like a custard when cooked.
   The avocado (_Persea gratissima_) is one of the fruits that have many names.  In Peru it is called _palta_, and the Mexican _ahuacatl_ was twisted by the Spaniards into _aguacate_ and _avocado_, and the English corrupted this last into alligator-pear.
   (OED has 1906 for "relleno."  OED 1993 ADDITIONS has 1929 for "chile rellenos"--ed.)

Pg. 421 (APPENDIX):  GUATEMALTECAN COOKERY.
   I do not speak of the tables of the upper classes, where variety is found in Guatemala as well as elsewhere; but of the common cookery that a stranger finds in travelling, it may truly be said that it has not a national character, nor does justice to the abundant material at hand.  What there is of it is, however, good; a fresh tortilla is better than the cakes of the Northern backwoods, and the wheaten bread made by the _panadero_ of the village is exceedingly palatable.  Frijoles, or beans, the most popular general dish, are always stewed over an open fire, and are much better than the baked beans of New England.  Eggs are always present, either fried, poached, or baked in the shell (_huevos tibios_); when fried, always seasoned with tomato, chillis, and vinegar.  _Salchichas_, or sausages, fried in lard, with plenty of garlic; _gigote_, or hashed meat; _higate_, a potage made of figs, pork, fowl, sugar, ginger, cinnamon and allspice, (Pg. 422--ed.) bread, soup, and innumerable ollas,--are present as solid dishes, the meats generally being of poor quality.  Besides the vegetables of Northern gardens, there are _chiotes_, palm-cabbage, and, best of all, plantain.  For_verduras_, or greens, there are many plants,--none, however, better than spinach or dandelions; and the _ensaladas_ are not remarkable.  In the shore region one can have the most delicious turtle-steak, white and tender as veal, iguanas fricasseed,--perhaps the best native dish,--javia-steaks, armadillo (which I am sorry to say I have not eaten), and fish of many kinds and flavors.
   I have spoken of the bad coffees served as "essencia," but have not said enough about the chocolate, which I never found carelessly prepared.  Perhaps the best is prepared entirely ar home; that is, the beans of cacao are carefully roasted, as coffee might be, and the shells removed by rubbing in the hands.  The metatle then serves to crush the oily mass, as corn is prepared in tortilla-making; sugar is added, and enough cinnamon or vanilla to flavor the crushed cacao, which becomes pasty by grinding, and may be run into moulds, or simply dropped on some cool surface to harden.  These chocolate-drops are dissolved in boiling milk as wanted, and the whole churned to a froth.  Prepared in this way, chocolate is much better than the cake chocolate of the manufacturers.  An ancient recipe was much more complicated than this, and although I have never tried it myself, I venture to give it to my readers.  It is this: "One hundred cacaos,--treating them as has been described,--two pods of chilli, a handful or anis and orjevala, two of mesachasil or vanilla (this may be replaced by six roses of Alexandria, powdered), two drams of cinnamon, a dozen each of almonds and filberts, half a pound of white sugar, and arnotto to color it."  This mixture must of course be whipped to a froth.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 01:46:34 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:46:34 -0400
Subject: Eagle (1917)
In-Reply-To: <200309292143.h8TLhku08616@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.214634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1917. p. 30 (1
> page):
>    The class of the golf played is indicated by the fact that the
> 635-yard sixteenth hole, probably the longest in the world, and with a
> par of six, was played twice in eagle 4's and the third time in birdie
> five.

Here's a slightly earlier citation:

1917 _N.Y. Times_ 26 Jul. 14  Hagen began the match with an eagle at the
first hole.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Sep 30 01:59:39 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.215939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

While Joanne may be behind a few words from your pace, no doubt the M-W has
"birdie" well before 1948.  Their cite was for the 'verb'-- not the noun.

Most of your "bogey" cites in your message below{except for that brilliant
find from 1911) mean "normal/average/par" as far as a score goes.  Not
"under par."   It would seem that the game of golf was in a state of flux
about 1910 or so as far as some terms go.

And the OED has 1892 as a cite for "bogey" meaning what we think of today as
"par."

If you knew that already, I apologize.

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"


>    OED has "birdie" from 1921?
>    FWIW:  There's a photo in today's newspaper of President George W. Bush
playing golf.
>
>
>    Birdie Handicap at Plainfield.
> Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1911. p. C7 (1 page):
>    PLAINFIELD, N. J., July 8.--Something new in golf was tried to-day at
the Plainfield Country Club.  It was called a "Birdie Handicap."  Each
player took his match play handicap and every hole in bogie counted 1 point,
every one on par 2 points, and every hole below par 3 points.
>
>
>    N.Y.A.C. WINS AT HOCKEY.
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 28, 1912. p. 9 (1
page):
> (Last sport article--ed.)
> _BALTUSROL GOLF TOURNEY._
> _Theodore H. Keer Leads Field In_
>    _Two Cup Contest._
>    More than seventy-five members of the Baltusrol Golf Club took part in
the week-end competition which began on Saturday and continued until
yesterday.  Theodore H. Keer led the field in both the Secretary's and Artic
Cup contest, finishing only one down to bogey in the first named.
> (...)
>    Cranberry at present leads in the ringer competition with 12 "birdies."
>
>
>    WOMEN'S GOLF BRINGS OUT NEW WINNERS
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1912. p. 11 (1
page):
>    She won the "birdie" prize by getting the second, eighth, and eleventh
holes under par, but two eighths and a seven were instances of other things
happening.
>
>
>        YALE ON LAKE CARNEGIE.
> Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Oct 24, 1913. p. 9 (1 page) :
> (It's in a following sports story.  Yale can't take credit for
everything--ed.)
>    A prize was also offered for the greatest number of "birdies," or holes
made in strokes less than bogey.
>
>
>    Sargent and McLeod Qualify For Open Golf Championship
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1914. p. 8 (1
page):
>    His putting was only fair, but hole after hole he got what the
professionals call a "birdie" so that extraordinary work on the greens was
not required to better par figures, which are 146 for a double round.
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 01:57:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:57:58 -0400
Subject: "Eagle" (Verb)
In-Reply-To: <200309292143.h8TLhku08616@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.215758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED does not have the golf term "eagle" as a verb.  Here's an early
citation:

1934 _Wash. Post_ 26 AUg. M16  McChesney ... eagled the third hole at
Columbia a few weeks ago.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:12:01 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:12:01 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20ADS/LSA=20hotel=20rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.221201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I guess this is a valid point. We did not meet our guarantee at the DSNA 
meeting at Duke this spring, and we did indeed have to pay a penalty, which 
ultimately will be paid for by DSNA members who attend the next meeting of DSNA in 
the form of higher registration fees (since we have no surplus to send ahead to 
the next conference hosts). The chief reason for this, however, was that 
fewer people actually attended than we expected. One always assumes that a certain 
number of people will book rooms at cheaper hotels in the neighborhood.

In the case of LSA/ADS in Boston, though, the fact that the Sheraton would 
price their supposedly discounted rooms higher than the Hilton ACROSS THE STREET 
seems to me to mean that the Sheraton is doing some price gouging. LSA should 
be complaining that the contract is unfair, which it apparently is. I realize 
that the Hilton does not have to furnish meeting rooms, so maybe this is a 
factor in making their prices somewhat lower. Maybe LSA should have given some 
thought to the possible effects of competition from across the street when they 
signed the contract with Sheraton.

In any case, I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as 
Luanne's message seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in 
the past when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different. 
And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston 
because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a few dollars 
in the future.


In a message dated 9/29/03 5:46:24 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes:


> <<Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:12:11 EDT
> From: RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject: ADS hotel rates
> MIME-version: 1.0
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> 
> According to the May 2003 NADS, the LSA/ADS/ANS hotel is the Sheraton Back
> Bay at 39 Dalton St. Their conference rate is given as $109.00 per night.
> 
> I just booked a room at the Hilton across the street for $93.60 per night
> (including taxes and service charges), and this is a deluxe room; they have
> them
> cheaper (AAA rate).>>
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Ron and all,
> 
> As you can see from Ron's message, you can save money.? What you can't see
> from his message is the effect of this action on the LSA.? The LSA has
> guaranteed a certain number of room nights in its contract with the
> hotel.? If it does not meet this number, it must pay penalty fees.? So if
> attendees all book in a different hotel or even in the conference hotel but
> through websites like Orbitz, etc., the organization is penalized.? Which
> in turn means higher conference fees for you in the future.? Organizations
> all over the country are being majorly affected by their members bypassing
> normal conference sign-up procedures.? Please give this a thought before
> trying an alternative.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Luanne v S
> (speaking as administrator of a sister learned society)
> 


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:22:36 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:22:36 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20ADS/LSA=20hotel=20rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.222236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron writes,

> I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as Luanne's message
> seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in the past
> when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different.
> And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston
> because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a few
> dollars in the future.
>
It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the increasing
availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate changes.

It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and hotels. How
it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA, but
we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 03:26:22 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:26:22 -0500
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.222622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:45 PM 9/29/03 -0700, you wrote:
>but the lsa -- at the direction of its members -- searches for a hotel
>that can accommodate *all* of its meetings under one roof.  this
>drastically narrows the pool of available hotels (and available cities,
>for that matter).  and the hotels are chosen years in advance.

Speaking in defence of Maggie Reynolds, Executive Director of LSA, whose
work I know, I can assure everyone on this list that the price she
negotiated was the lowest possible one given the conflicting constraints
that have been discussed in the last few messages.  Maggie is always able
to secure excellent prices in expensive markets.  We've stayed at
remarkable hotels (such as the Hyatt Regency in San Francisco) for way
under the rack rate, and it is rare to even break $100.  To get a rate of
$109 for that hotel, in downtown Boston, for several hundred people, is
quite an accomplishment, I assure you.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology

Wayne State University
Department of English,
Wayne State University,
Detroit, MI, 48202
Home:
862 University Place
Grosse Pointe, MI, 48230, USA.

Home telephone:  (313) 417-8406
Linguistics:  (313) 577-8621
C&IT:  (313) 577-1259


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 02:30:08 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:30:08 -0400
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates
In-Reply-To: <11b.2892a5b6.2caa4071@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.223008.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>In any case, I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as
>Luanne's message seems to imply. Surely people have opted for
>cheaper hotel rooms in the past when the quality was the same and
>the convenience was no different.
>And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in Boston
>because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up
>a few dollars in the future.
>

Exactly...There are people for whom the $15+ difference, per night,
will make the difference between being able to attend the conference
and not being able to attend. It's really hard to know what other
people's economic realities are (how much, if anything, will you be
reimbursed for lodging at the conference? what's your own personal
budget? etc.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 30 02:44:42 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:44:42 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_ADS/LSA_hotel_rates?=
Message-ID: <MON.29.SEP.2003.224442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It is far from true that Sheraton is price-gouging here.  The $109 negotiated rate is extremely competitive, a fraction of Sheraton's normal rate.  The Hilton is a slightly cheaper hotel anyway and apparently is running a promotional rate during a slow time of the year.

        For most people, it will make more sense to stay at the slightly nicer Sheraton, with the convenience of being at the conference hotel.  On the other hand, some people will find the price difference material (and the difference in quality is not).  I see no reason to blame either LSA/ADS, which did quite a good job of negotiating an excellent rate for the hotel and area, or the people who find the price difference material and choose to stay off-site.

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 04:00:21 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:00:21 -0400
Subject: Hearn's "West Indies" (1890)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.000021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TWO YEARS IN THE FRENCH WEST INDIES
by Lafcadio Hearn
New York: Harper & Brothers
1890
Upper Saddle River, NJ: Literature House
1970 reprint  ("Lafacadio" is on the title page--ed.)

   See also:
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/about.cfm?id=biography&AuthorNo=8
Hearn, Lafcadio. La Cuisine Creole, A Collection of Culinary Recipes from Leading Chefs and Noted Creole Housewives, Who Have Made New Orleans Famous for its Cuisine. New Orleans: F.F. Hansell & Bro., Ltd., c1885
   This is the "Feeding America" project of MSU...Is this book online somewhere, such as Project Gutenberg?


Pg. 41:  ...--those are "akras,"--flat yellow-brown cakes, made of pounded codfish, or beans, or both, seasoned with pepper and fried in butter.

Pg. 116:  Here are _christophines_,--great pear-shaped things, white and green, according to kind, with a peel prickly and knobby as the skin of a horned toad; but they stew exquisitely.  And _melongenes_, or egg-plants; and palmiste-pith, and _chadeques_, and _pommes-d'Haiti_,--and roots that at first sight look all alike, but they are not: there are _camanoic_, and _couscous_, and _choux-caraibes_, and _zignames_, and various kinds of _patates_ among them.
   (The earlier OED had 1939 for "melongene."  The OED revision has 1855, then 1907.  I'm the only person to read Lafcadio Hearn in 110 years?  No one ever heard of this book?--ed.)

Pg. 247:  Her strongest refreshment is _mabi,_--a mild, effervescent, and, I think, rather disagreeable, beer made from molasses.
   (OED lists "mabi" in the etymology for "mobbie," but doesn't give a single "mabi" citation--ed.)

Pg. 283:  And at all the river-mouths, during July and August, are caught vast numbers of _titiri_*,--tiny white fish, of which a thousand might be put into one teacup.  They are delicious when served in oil,--infinitely more delicate than the sardine.  Some regard them as a particular species: others believe them to be only the fry of larger fish,--as their periodical appearance and disappearance would seem to indicate.
   (Not in OED.  Titiri is the Goby fish (Sicydium punctatum), according to one Google site--ed.)

Pg. 332:  Said a creole once, in my hearing:--"The gens-de-couleur are just like the _tourouroux_:* one must pick out the females and leave the males alone."
*A sort of land-crab;--the female is selected for food, and, properly cooked, makes a delicious dish;--the male is almost worthless.
   (Not in OED?--ed.)

Pg. 348:
   Cyrillia always prepares something for me on my return from the beach,--either a little pot of fresh cocoa-water, or a _cocoyage_, or a _mabiyage_, or a _bavaroise_.
   The _cocoyage_ I like the best of all.  Cyrillia takes a green cocoa-nut, slices off one side of it so as to open a (Pg. 349--ed.) hole, then pours the opalescent water into a bowl, adds to it a fresh egg, a little Holland gin, and some grated nutmeg and plenty of sugar.  Then she whips up the mixture into effervescence with her _baton-lele_.  The _baton-lele_ is an indispensable article in every creole home: it is a thin stick which is cut from a young tree so as to leave at one end a whorl of branch-stumps sticking out at right angles like spokes;--by twirling the stem betweenthe hands, the stumps whip up the drink in a moment.
   THe _mabiyage_ is less agreeable, but is a popular morning drink among the poorer classes.  It is made with a little white rum and a bottle of the bitter native root-beer called _mabi_.  The taste of _mabi_ I can only describe as that of molasses and water flavored with a little cinchona bark.
   The _bavaroise_ is fresh milk, sugar, and a little Holland gin or rum,--mixed with the _baton-lele_ until a fine thick foam is formed.  After the _cocoyage_, I think it is the best drink one can take in the morning; but very little spirit must be used for any of these mixtures.  It is not intil just before the mid-day meal that one can venture to take a serious stimulant,--_yon to ponch,_--rum and water, sweetened with plenty of sugar or sugar syrup.
   The word _sucre_ is rarely used in Martinique,--considering that sugar is still the chief product;--the word _doux_, "sweet," is commonly substituted for it.  _Doux_ has, however, a larger range of meaning: it may signify syrup, or any sort of sweets,--duplicated into _doudoux_, it means the corossole fruit as well as a sweetheart.

Pg. 350:  When fresh meat is purchased, it is usually to make a stew or _daube_;--(Pg. 351--ed.) probably salt meats are more popular; and native vegetables and manioc flour are preferred to bread.  There are only two popular soups which are peculiar to the creole cuisine,--_calalou_, a gombo soup, almost precisely similar to that of Louisiana; and the _soupe-d'habitant_, or "country soup."  It is made of yams, carrots, bananas, turnips, _choux-caraibes_, pumpkins, salt pork, and pimento, all boiled together;--the salt meat being left out of the composition on Fridays.
   The great staple, the true meat of the population, is salt codfish, which is prepared in a great number of ways.  The most popular and rudest preparation of it is called "Ferocious" (_feroce_); and it is not at all unpalatable.  The codfish is simply fried, and serve3d with vinegar, oil, pimento;--manioc flour and avocados being considered indispensable adjuncts.  As manioc flour forms a part of almost every creole meal, a word of information regarding it will not be out of place here.
   (It's worth reading all of the next 15 pages--ed.)

Pg. 352:  ...---_dleau passe farine_ (more water than manioc flour) is a saying which describes the condition of a very destitute person.  When not served with fish, the flour is occasionally mixed with water and refined molasses (_sirop-battrie_): this preparation, which is very nice, is called _cousscaye_.  There is also a way of boiling it with molasses and milk into a kind of pudding.  This is called _matete_; children are very fond of it.  Both of these names, _cousscaye_ and _matete_, are alleged to be of Carib origin: the art of preparing the flour itself from the manioc root is certainly an inheritance from the Caribs, who bequeathed many singular words to the creole patois of the French West Indies.
   (Neither "cousscaye" nor "matete" is in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 352:  Of all the preparations of codfish with which manioc flour is eaten, I preferred the _lamori-bouilli_,--the fish boiled plain, after having been steeped long enough to remove the excess of salt; and then served with plenty of olive-oil and pimento.  The people who have no home of their own, or at least no place to cook, can buy their foood already prepared from the _machanees lapacotte_, who seem to make a specialty of _macadam_ (codfish stewed with rice) and the other two dishes already referred to.  But in every colored family there are occasional feasts of _lamori-au-laitt_, codfish stewed with milk and potatoes; _lamori-au-grattin_, codfish boned, pounded with toast crumbs, and boiled with butter, onions, and pepper into a mush;--_coubouyon-lamori_, codfish stewed with butter and oil;--_bachamelle_, codfish boned and stewed with potatoes, pimentos, oil, garlic, and butter.
   _Pimento_ is an essential accompaniment to tall these dishes, whether it be cooked or raw: everything is served with plenty of pimento,--_en pile, en pile piment_.
   (The revised OED does not have this "macadam"--ed.)

Pg. 356:  Of all fresh fish, the most popular is the _tonne_, a great blue-gray creature whose flesh is solid as beef; next come in order or preferment the flying-fish (_volants_), which often sell as low as four for a cent;--then the _lambi_, or sea-snail, which has a very dense and nutritious flesh;--then the small whitish fish classed as _sadines_;--then the blue-colored fishes according to price, _couliou_, _balaou_, etc.; lastly, the shark, which sells commonly at two cents a pound.
   (OED does not have "lambi," also called "conch"--ed.)

Pg. 357:  To make a _blaffe_ the fish are cooked in water, and served with pimento, lemon, spices, onions, and garlic; but without oil or butter.  Experience has demonstrated that _coulious_ make the best _blaffe_; and a _blaffe_ is seldom prepared with other fish.

Pg. 357:  THERE are four dishes which are the holiday luxuries of the poor:--_manicou_, _ver-palmiste_, _zandouille_, and _poule-epi-diri_.

Pg. 358:  The _zandouilles_ are delicious sausages made with pig-buff,--and only seen in the market on Sundays.  They cost a franc and a half each; and there are several women who have an established reputation throughout Martinique for their skill in making them.  I have tasted some not less palatable than the famous London "pork-pies."  Those of Lamentin are reputed the best in the island.
   But _poule-epi-diri_ is certainly the most popular dish of all: it is the dearest, as well, and poor people can rarely afford it.  In Louisiana an almost similar dish is called _jimbalaya_: chicken cooked with rice.  The Martiniquais think it such a delicacy that an over-exacting person, or one difficult to satisfy, is reproved with the simple question:--"_Ca ou le nco--poule-epi-diri_?"  (What more do you want, great heavens!--chicken-and-rice?)

Pg. 359:  _Diri-doux_, rice boiled with sugar, is sold in prodigious quantities daily,--especially at the markets, where little heaps of it, rolled in pieces of banana or _cachibou_ leaves, are retailed at a cent each.  _Diri-aulaitt_, a veritable rice-pudding, is also very popular; but it would weary the reader to mention one-tenth of the creole preparations into which rice enters.

Pg. 359:  EVERYBODY eats _akras_; they sell at a cent apiece.  The akra is a small fritter or pancake, which may be made of fifty different things,--among others codfish, titiri, beans, brains, _choux-caraibes_, little black peas (_poix-zie-noue_, "black-eyed peas"), or of crawfish (_akra-crabiche_).  When made of carrots, bananas, chicken, palm-cabbage, etc., and sweetened, they are called _marinades_.


(Gotta go.  NYU is kicking me out at midnight.  Typing mistakes are yours.  More dreary parking tickets all this week--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Sep 30 05:37:13 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:37:13 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.013713.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not an antedating, as HDAS has 1843 for "Black Maria" as a police van,
specifically in Philadelphia.  The next HDAS cite is 1847, also "Black
Maria."

>From ancestry.com,  Republican Compiler(Gettysburg, PA), Sept. 14, 1846.
p.2, col. 1

     "No longer grace can be allowed these indifferent partizans:  after the
stated hour, the committee must wake them, shake them, and if still
indifferent, force them into a carriage, like convicts in 'Black Mariah,'
and drive them to the polls, nolens volens."

This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
Philadelphia.  It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah"
rather than "Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma RYE Ah as I
grew up in the 1950's.

I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early 1800's?

"Wake them,  shake them."  Zounds!  Sounds like Sports Center.

SC


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Sep 30 07:00:59 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:00:59 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
In-Reply-To: <006301c38714$e83fd920$fd26a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.030059.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
>Philadelphia.

George Thompson has presented earlier citations from New York, I believe:
see the "Black Maria" entry at Michael Quinion's site.

>It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah" rather than
>"Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
>pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma RYE Ah as
>I grew up in the 1950's.

Yes, it's generally pronounced like that. I don't know whether this odd
spelling had the same weight back in the day, though.

>I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early 1800's?

I believe it was often or usually "ma RYE ah".

For comparison, MW3 shows such a pronunciation first under "Maria Theresa
dollar": another holdover, I suppose.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 07:34:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:34:03 EDT
Subject: Birdied (verb) (1921)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.033403.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has 1956??


   13 August 1921, STAR-JOURNAL (Sandusky, Ohio), pg. 10?, col. 5:
 "Do you remember number twelve?
   I should have 'birdied' that,
But just as I was set to putt my
   caddie dropped his hat;..."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 07:50:31 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:50:31 EDT
Subject: USGA on golf, birdie, eagle, bogie, mulligan, skins, links, fore,
 dormie
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.035031.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Birdie" an Atlantic City, NJ coinage?  Maybe Landau could get a plaque 
drive going and ask for a country club discount?...Again, my 1911 "birdie" 
citation was from New Jersey.
   By the way, these USGA guys are located on my block--57th Street--next to 
Carnegie Hall, on the site of the former Russian Tea Room!
  
  
http://www.usga.org/history/faq/
    
    
What is the origin of the word 'golf?' 
  
> The word 'golf' is not an acronym for anything.  Rather, it derives 
> linguistically from the Dutch word 'kolf' or 'kolve,' meaning quite simply 'club.'  
> In the Scottish dialect of the late 14th or early 15th century, the Dutch 
> term became 'goff' or 'gouff,' and only later in the 16th century 'golf.'  The 
> linguistic connections between the Dutch and Scottish terms are but one 
> reflection of what was a very active trade industry between the Dutch ports and the 
> ports on the east coast of Scotland from the 14th through 17th centuries.  
> Some scholars suggest that the Dutch game of 'kolf,' played with a stick and 
> ball on frozen canals in the wintertime, was brought by the Dutch sailors to 
> the east coast of Scotland, where it was transferred on to the public 
> linkslands and eventually became the game we know today. 
   
  
How did the terms 'birdie' and 'eagle' come into golf?
  
> The term 'birdie' originated in the United States in 1899.  H.B. Martin's 
> "Fifty Years of American Golf" contains an account of a foursomes match played 
> at the Atlantic City (N.J.) CC.  One of the players, Ab Smith relates: "my 
> ball... came to rest within six inches of the cup.  I said 'That was a bird of 
> a shot... I suggest that when one of us plays a hole in one under par he 
> receives double compensation.'  The other two agreed and we began right away, 
> just as soon as the next one came, to call it a 'birdie.'  In 19th century 
> American slang, 'bird' refereed to anyone or anything excellent or wonderful.By 
> analogy with 'birdie,' the term 'eagle' soon thereafter became common to refer 
> to a score one better than a 'bird.'  Also by analogy, the term 'albatross' 
> for double eagle - an even bigger eagle!
>   
>   
What is the origin of the word 'bogey?'
  
> The term 'bogey' comes from a song that was popular in the British Isles in 
> the early 1890s, called "The Bogey Man" (later known as "The Colonel Bogey 
> March").  The character of the song was an elusive figure who hid in the 
> shadows: "I'm the Bogey Man, catch me if you can." Golfers in Scotland and England 
> equated the quest for the elusive Bogey Man with the quest for the elusive 
> perfect score. By the mid to late 1890s, the term 'bogey score' referred to 
> the ideal score a good player could be expected to make on a hole under perfect 
> conditions.  It also came to be used to describe stroke play tournaments ? 
> hence, in early Rules books we find a section detailing the regulations for 
> 'Bogey Competitions.'  It was only in the late 1900s/early 1910s that the 
> concept of 'Par' started to emerge - this being the designated number of strokes a 
> scratch player could be expected to take on a hole in ideal conditions.  In 
> this way par was distinguished from bogey.  The term par itself is a standard 
> term in sports handicapping, where it simply means 'level' or 'even.'
>   
>   
What are the origins of the term 'dormie?'
  
> Historically, the term dormie is derived from the French/Latin cognate 
> 'dormir,' meaning 'to sleep,' suggesting that a player who is 'dormie' can relax 
> (literally, go to sleep) without fear of losing the match.
>   
>   
Why do golfers shout 'Fore!' when they hit an errant shot?
  
> The word 'fore' is Scottish in origin, and is a shortened version of the 
> word 'before' or 'afore.' The old Scottish warning, essentially meaning "look 
> out ahead," most probably originated in military circles, where it was used by 
> artillery men as a warning to troops in foreword positions. Golfers as early 
> as the 18th century simply adopted this military warning cry for use on the 
> links.
>   
>   
What is the definition of a 'links' course?
  
> 'Links' is a term that refers to a very specific geographic land form found 
> in Scotland.  Such tracts of low-lying, seaside land are characteristically 
> sandy, treeless, and undulating, often with lines of dunes or dune ridges, 
> and covered by bent grass and gorse.  To be a true links, the tract of land 
> must lie near the mouth of a river - that is, in an estuarine environment.  From 
> the Middle Ages onward, linksland (generally speaking, poor land for 
> farming) were common grounds used for sports, including archery, bowls and golf.

> Because many of the early courses of Scotland were built on these common 
> linksland, golf courses and links have forever been associated.  The term 
> 'links' is commonly misapplied to refer to any golf course.  But remember that a 
> true links depends only on geography.
>   
>   
What is the origin of the popular golf game called 'skins?'
  
> As a format of golf gambling, 'skins' has been around for decades, but 
> really only became popular after the creation of "The Skins Game" in the 1980s. 
> In other parts of the country, 'skins' is also known as 'cats,' 'scats,' 
> 'skats,' or 'syndicates.' Of these, 'syndicates' seems to be the oldest term, 
> going back at least to the 1950s, and possibly earlier. It has been suggested 
> that 'skins,' 'scats,' etc. are simply shortened, simplified versions of the 
> term 'syndicates.' 
>   
>   
Why are there 18 holes on a golf course?
  
> The links at St. Andrews occupy a narrow strip of land along the sea.  As 
> early as the 15th century, golfers at St. Andrews established a customary 
> route through the undulating terrain, playing to holes whose locations were 
> dictated by topography.  The course that emerged featured eleven holes, laid out 
> end to end from the clubhouse to the far end of the property.  One played the 
> holes out, turned around, and played the holes in, for a total of 22 holes. 
> In 1764, several of the holes were deemed too short, and were therefore 
> combined.  The number was thereby reduced from 11 to nine, so that a complete round 
> of the links comprised 18 holes.When golf clubs in the UK formally 
> recognized the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews as the rule-making body for 
> the sport in the late 1890s, it became necessary for many clubs to expand or 
> reduce the length of their course to eighteen holes.  Prior to this time, 
> courses ranged in length from six holes to upward of 20 holes.  However, if 
> golfers were to play by the official R&A rules, then their appointed round would 
> consist of 18 holes.
>   
> 
 Where does the word 'mulligan' come from?
 
> There is considerable debate about this topic, to say the least. There are 
> several clubs and several people who have staked claims about the origin of 
> the term 'mulligan.' 
  
The story most widely accepted focuses on a gentleman named David 
> Mulligan who played at the St. Lambert CC in Montreal, Canada during the 
> 1920s. There are several versions of the David Mulligan story. 

   Mr. Mulligan was a hotelier in the first half of the century, a part-owner 

> and manager of the Biltmore Hotel in New York City, as well as several 
> large Canadian hotels. One story says that the first mulligan was an impulsive 
> sort of event - that one day Mulligan hit a very long drive off the first tee, 
> just not straight, and acting on impulse re-teed and hit again. His partners 
> found it all amusing, and decided that the shot that Mulligan himself called 
> a 'correction shot' deserved a better named, so they called it a 'mulligan.'
  
   Story two: Mulligan played with a regular foursome at St. Lambert, 
> and in the morning he drove to pick up his golfing buddies. The road into 
> the club was reportedly bumpy and windy and just sort of generally poor, with 
> bridge of bumpy railroad ties. An extra shot was allotted to Mulligan, the 
> driver of the car, on the first tee because he was jumpy and shaking from the 
> difficult drive. 
  
   Story three: this story again identified a specific moment, citing a day 
> when David Mulligan showed up late to the course, having scrambled to get 
> out of bed late and get dressed and get to the course on time. He was frazzled 
> on the first tee, hit a poor shot, and re-teed. 
  
   Another version of the 'mulligan' story comes from the Essex Fells CC in 
> N.J. This story is one of the latest, and may therefore be less credible. 
> According to the this version, the term was named after a locker room 
> attendant at the club named John A. 'Buddy' Mulligan, who worked at the club during 
> the 1930s and was known for replaying shots, particularly on the first tee.
   
   Compiled by Dr. Rand Jerris, USGA Museum Curator


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Sep 30 09:08:44 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:08:44 +0100
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.100844.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From ancestry.com,  Republican Compiler(Gettysburg, PA), Sept. 14, 1846.
> p.2, col. 1
>
>      "No longer grace can be allowed these indifferent partizans:  after
the
> stated hour, the committee must wake them, shake them, and if still
> indifferent, force them into a carriage, like convicts in 'Black Mariah,'
> and drive them to the polls, nolens volens."
>
> This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite being from
> Philadelphia.

The first _use_ however, seems otherwise. Note George Thompson's unearthing
of

1835 N.Y. Transcript 24 Dec. 2/5: Escape. ? A man named Henry Stage [...]
contrived to make his escape on Saturday last while on his way from Bellevue
prison to the city in the carriage generally known as ?Black Maria?

1836 The Herald (NY) 6 Aug. 1/2: Pray ask Mr. Justice Bloodgood what is done
with the gold watches and jewelry which are taken from the unfortunate girls
who are marched, by him, out to Black Maria?

As for pronunciation I believe that the consensus is that 19th century Maria
(at least in UK) was mar-EYE-a, just as Sophia was soph-EYE-a, etc.

Jonathon Green


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 30 13:55:49 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:55:49 -0400
Subject: Birdie (1911,1912), and some "Bogey"/"Bogie"
In-Reply-To: <003101c386f6$83356fe0$fd26a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.095549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Sam.  We do have evidence earlier than 1948, but not
nearly as early the 1911 cite -- that's quite a coup!  (It's too bad we
can't use it -- we finesse the whole issue by entering an older, non-
golf sense of "birdie.")


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Sep 30 14:53:59 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:53:59 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <3F795325.1498.28378066@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.105359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
"Everyday People"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:05:44 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:05:44 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309301051420.6257-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.110544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
> Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
> for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
> "Everyday People"?

I haven't found anything in the files earlier than 1969.



Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:16:28 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:16:28 EDT
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.111628.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 9/29/03 10:23:12 PM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes:


>
> It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the increasing
> availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate changes.
>
> It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and hotels. How
> it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA, but
> we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf
>

Thanks for the correction. Since I normally stay at Hiltons (or other hotels
in their "family"), it has been my normal practice for several years to check
with them whenever I have a conference to attend. I travel quite a bit, and it
is often worth it to me to pay even a slightly higher Hilton rate because of
the perks I get by staying within the system.

I hope that my earlier message doesn't end up costing LSA money! I agree with
others that Maggie Reynolds does an outstanding job of negotiating hotel
rates years in advance. In fact, Maggie is an all-round wonderful manager of the
LSA enterprise. (So, for that matter, is Allan Metcalf a wonderful manager of
the ADS enterprise.)

I don't agree with those who suggest that Sheraton is a "slightly nicer"
hotel chain than Hilton. As a chain, they are in my experience quite comparable.
Or maybe he was comparing only the Boston Back Bay Sheraton with the Boston
Back Bay Hilton? It is certainly the case that the *Seattle* downtown Sheraton is
quite a bit nicer than the Seattle downtown Hilton. Maybe this is the case in
Boston Back Bay as well.

In any case, we would be living in a dream world if we believe that a simple
appeal to organizational loyalty will solve this problem. We live in a
marketplace world, and hotels and organizations willl have to come up with a solution
in future years that reflects the normal workings of the marketplace. I
realize that we academics are supposed to be knee-jerk socialists, but I doubt very
much that Congress will any time soon seize the hotels of America to solve
this problem--or even institute price controls. Perhaps a good socialist answer
to this problem, given that wet live in a capitalist society would be to
insitute a sliding scale of membership and registration fees. Professors who make
more than $100,000 a year [note that that is a RESTRICTIVE relative clause]
would pay far more for both than an assistant professor or instructor making far
less. LSA already does this to a limited extent for retirees and graduate
students; MLA (as I recall) and the Law and Society Association have a rather
elaborate sliding scale for membership (though not yet, as I recall, for
conference registration).


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 30 15:26:27 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:26:27 -0400
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks"
In-Reply-To: <3F796388.14451.2877857D@localhost>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.112627.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 11:05:44AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
> > Jesse, Tom, Jonathon, Barry, Joanne, Sam et al.:
> > Here's one more.  Does anyone have any citations for "different strokes
> > for different folks" earlier than the 1969 Sly and the Family Stone song,
> > "Everyday People"?
>
> I haven't found anything in the files earlier than 1969.

The earliest I have handy is 1970, where it is prefixed with
"as the kids say".

But it's not the sort of thing OED readers would generally collect.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Tue Sep 30 15:33:23 2003
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:33:23 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20*=20*=20*=20Re:=20*=20*=20*=20ADS/LSA=20hot?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?el=20rates?=
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.103323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the hilton may have reconsidered.

(which is not to say I called them, but) the lowest price they were
willing to do last Friday was 98 per, plus a nonrefundable $3.50 booking
fee. they suggested that the $93.+ , that Ron mentioned was only on that
day, etc.)

(I didn't book there)

\beth

>>> AAllan at AOL.COM 9/29/2003 9:22:36 PM >>>
Ron writes,

> I can't imagine that this is somehow a new situation, as Luanne's
message
> seems to imply. Surely people have opted for cheaper hotel rooms in
the past
> when the quality was the same and the convenience was no different.
> And I can't believe that people will pass up considerable savings in
Boston
> because they fear that their conference registration fees may go up a
few
> dollars in the future.
>
It is a new situation, as a matter of fact, brought about by the
increasing
availability of hotel discount websites. And the volatility of rate
changes.

It's a problem, if not a crisis, for many many organizations and
hotels. How
it sorts out will probably be decided by much bigger players than LSA,
but
we'll all be affected. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Sep 30 15:50:29 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:50:29 -0400
Subject: SECOL Review issues available
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.115029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues, I have available copies of the following issues of the _SECOL
Review_:

Volumes 8-18 (through 1999, when the name changed to _Southern Journal of
Linguistics_)

and

issue 1 of vol. 6

and

an Index to all volumes 1976-1986.

I seek a modest donation to our Linguistics petty cash fund. (We can ship
these at our expense.)

Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:01:00 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:01:00 EDT
Subject: Beth on ADS/LSA hot el rates
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.120100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I booked my room on the national Hilton web site, not by calling the hotel.
Usually, rates are lower on the web site. I also requested a AAA discount,
which helps. There was no booking fee. I see in reading my downloaded reservation
agreement, however, that the rate I was quoted did NOT include taxes. So my
room rate ends up being slightly more than $105.00 per night. This is not much
of a savings over the Sheraton conference rate. However, mine is a "deluxe"
room; they also had cheaper rooms (as I recall, $88 plus tax). I spoke yesterday
with someone who was responsible for booking rooms for several people at the
conference; he went for the cheapest rate and found that he saved several
hundred dollars total for his group by booking at the Hilton.

If I were the LSA, I would be in contact with the Sheraton right now,
pointing out that, if LSA does not make its quota, it is because they are charging
significantly more than the (perhaps "slightly" less "nice" hotel across the
street). Maybe the Sheraton will come down in their price if this is pointed out
to them.

In a message dated 9/30/03 11:33:50 AM, simon at IPFW.EDU writes:


> the hilton may have reconsidered.
>
> (which is not to say I called them, but) the lowest price they were
> willing to do last Friday was 98 per, plus a nonrefundable $3.50 booking
> fee. they suggested that the $93.+ , that Ron mentioned was only on that
> day, etc.)
>
> (I didn't book there)
>
> \beth
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:02:52 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:02:52 -0400
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.120252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        My suggestion that the Boston Sheraton is slightly better than the Back Bay Hilton is addressed to those two hotels specifically, and not to the chains generally.

        Expedia.com currently quotes a rate of $139/night at the Back Bay Hilton for Jan. 8 - 11.  Expedia gives the Hilton three stars, the Sheraton four.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:16 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: ADS/LSA hotel rates: my mistake

I don't agree with those who suggest that Sheraton is a "slightly nicer"
hotel chain than Hilton. As a chain, they are in my experience quite comparable.
Or maybe he was comparing only the Boston Back Bay Sheraton with the Boston
Back Bay Hilton? It is certainly the case that the *Seattle* downtown Sheraton is
quite a bit nicer than the Seattle downtown Hilton. Maybe this is the case in
Boston Back Bay as well.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Sep 30 16:35:16 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:35:16 -0700
Subject: between you and i
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.093516.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

we have an undergraduate linguistics student at stanford who's started
working with tom wasow on nominative objects in coordination ("between
you and i" and similar things).  the standard story is that this usage
arose from hypercorrection (and then spread in the usual fashion), but
he suspects that hypercorrection isn't the whole story, and some of the
sources he's looked at suggest that it isn't.

does anyone on this list know of relevant historical studies on this
usage?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:42:02 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:42:02 -0400
Subject: between you and i
In-Reply-To: <129550EF-F364-11D7-BAB7-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.124202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 09:35:16AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> we have an undergraduate linguistics student at stanford who's started
> working with tom wasow on nominative objects in coordination ("between
> you and i" and similar things).  the standard story is that this usage
> arose from hypercorrection (and then spread in the usual fashion), but
> he suspects that hypercorrection isn't the whole story, and some of the
> sources he's looked at suggest that it isn't.
>
> does anyone on this list know of relevant historical studies on this
> usage?

There's

Richard K. Redfern, "Is _between you and I_ Good English?," in
_Centennial Usage Studies,_ ed. Greta D. Little & Michael
Montgomery (Publication of the American Dialect Society No. 78) (1994)
187-193.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 16:47:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:47:42 -0400
Subject: WSJ article on American's British accent
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.124742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from my lunch hour.  I just had a woman before me that I felt like marrying on the spot.  She looks like Erin McKean and she works at Eli's.  Hey, good wedding catering is important...She said that Eli is not writing a food book.
   From today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 30 September 2003, pg. 1, col. 4:

_Bloody Sticky Wicket:_
_Americans in Britain_
_Often Blow the Accent_

_The Urge to Fit In Can Leave_
   _Real Britons Chortling:_
   _"Excuse Me" vs. "Yo"_

(Article not typed--ed.)


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Sep 30 16:56:45 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:56:45 +0100
Subject: New Michael Quinion Book
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.175645.0100.>

> I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought people on
> this list would be interested that Library Journal has a very
> favorable review of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and Isms: A
> Dictionary of Word Beginnings and Endings. The review concludes: "Even
> if you think you know the English language, you will learn a thing or
> two from this little volume. Easy to use, small enough to carry
> around, and chockfull of useful information, this book is for anyone
> who truly loves language."
>
> Congratulations, Michael!

Thank you! I was amused by the subject line, as the book's been out
over a year in the UK and nine months in the US! But it's still
selling well (even better after that review came out).

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 30 17:18:00 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:18:00 EDT
Subject: Relative Nicerness: Back Bay Hilton v. Sheraton
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.131800.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 9/30/03 12:08:11 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:


> ? ? ? ? Expedia.com currently quotes a rate of $139/night at the Back Bay 
> Hilton for Jan. 8 - 11.? Expedia gives the Hilton three stars, the Sheraton 
> four.
> 

Clearly, this proves that Expedia is not a very good buy, then, since the 
Hilton's own web site is $40 cheaper.

Expedia does not anywhere that I can find EXPLAIN its star system or indicate 
who is responsible for assigning the ratings or give any indication of what 
the criteria are. One wonders if the chief reason they like the Sheraton better 
than the Hilton is that the Sheraton allows them a discount that Hilton does 
not. At any rate, a reading of the descriptions of the two hotels seems to 
indicate little difference between the two, except that the Sheraton is a lot 
bigger ("the largest hotel in Boston").


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 30 19:02:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:17 -0400
Subject: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.150217.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had two mid-1830s references:
Escape. -- A man named Henry Stage . . . contrived to make his escape on Saturday last while on his way from Bellevue prison to the city in the carriage generally known as "Black Maria."  New York Transcript, December 24, 1835, p. 2, col. 5

Pray ask Mr. Justice Bloodgood what is done with the gold watches and jewelry which are taken from the unfortunate girls who are marched, by him, out to Black Maria?  The Herald, August 6, 1836, p. 1, col. 2

In addition, I have notes of several passages from the same period illustrating the failure to use the term "Black Maria":
In 1834 it was called "the corporation coach" -- New York Daily Advertiser, January 30, 1834, p. 2, col. 3; in 1835 the same paper called it "the prison coach" -- New York Daily Advertiser, February 10, 1835; in 1837 it was called "the Rogues Omnibus" -- New York Times, February 2, 1837, p. 2, col. 6.  Of course, the fact that the NYDA didn't use "Black Maria" in 1834 doesn't prove that it hadn't been coined then.

There had been two notable racehorses named Black Maria, mother and daughter, the older active in the 1810s, as I recall, and the daughter in the early 1830s.  For instance, the younger was thoroughly beaten by Flying Dutchman in a race of three four-mile heats on the Jamaica course, in 1832.   "We cannot say whether the knowing ones were taken in or not, but we regret the discomfiture of Black Maria, who was the favorite.  It is said she was suffering from a cold, and came in lame. . . ."  New-York Commercial Advertiser, May 24, 1832, p. 2, col. 1; [Black Maria finishes 6th] New-York Evening Post, May 23, 1832, p. 2, col. 5.  I suppose that the name was suggested because the Black Maria got its passengers to the lockup a good deal quicker than they wanted.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:00 am
Subject: Re: And they call the van "Mariah" (1846)

> >This gives some legitimacy, I would think,  to the first cite
> being from
> >Philadelphia.
>
> George Thompson has presented earlier citations from New York, I
> believe:see the "Black Maria" entry at Michael Quinion's site.
>
> >It is more important, IMHO, that the term is spelled "Mariah"
> rather than
> >"Maria."  I assume that the writer understood the word to be
> >pronounced Ma RYE Ah, rather than Ma REE Ah.   It was a black Ma
> RYE Ah as
> >I grew up in the 1950's.
>
> Yes, it's generally pronounced like that. I don't know whether
> this odd
> spelling had the same weight back in the day, though.
>
> >I wonder now 'how' the name 'Maria' was pronounced in the early
> 1800's?
> I believe it was often or usually "ma RYE ah".
>
> For comparison, MW3 shows such a pronunciation first under "Maria
> Theresadollar": another holdover, I suppose.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Sep 30 20:18:03 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:18:03 -0400
Subject: Ologies and Isms: a Michael Quinion festschrift (from GAT)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.161803.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone has honored Michael Quinion by taking his "new" book from the shelf here, so I haven't been able to check what he may have had on the words "ism" and "ology".  I don't think that I have posted this stuff here before.

        Symmsonianism.  This, the youngest member of the family of isms. . . .  Commercial Advertiser, February 3, 1826, p. 2, col. 3.  Isms is in OED from 1680, but the earliest American source is 1864 (J. R. Lowell).

        Progress of the Ologies.  [Phrenology] is one of the most important Ologies of the day.  The Herald, February 3, 1837, p. 2, col. 2  OED has ology from 1811, but the earliest American source is 1972!

        They may talk of Far-Downism, Corkonianism, Catholicism, Protestantism, and all the other isms which are supposed to lead to these outrages. . . .  New York Commercial Advertiser, May 3, 1838, p. 2, col. 5

Symmes (not Symmson) was a geologist who believed that the earth was hollow and inhabited inside, with an opening near the North Pole.  Despite the obviously batty nature of this idea, he was in the news for about a decade, lecturing and pleading for money to finance an expedition to look for the opening.

I have debated "Far Down" and its meaning with Jonathon Green, my impression being that it refers to Irish Protestants, his that it refers to men from County Down -- if I do not misremember his thoughts.  Recently I saw a dissertation on the Irish of New York City that derived the term from an Irish phrase referring to their dark complexion (by Irish standards).  I've mislaid the reference and need to dig it up again.  (The dissertation was not by our sometime comrade Prof. Cassidy, who derives everything from the Irish.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Quinion <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: New Michael Quinion Book

> > I hope this is not an inappropriate posting, but I thought
> people on
> > this list would be interested that Library Journal has a very
> > favorable review of Michael Quinion's new book, Ologies and
> Isms: A
> > Dictionary of Word Beginnings and Endings. The review concludes:
> "Even> if you think you know the English language, you will learn
> a thing or
> > two from this little volume. Easy to use, small enough to carry
> > around, and chockfull of useful information, this book is for anyone
> > who truly loves language."
> >
> > Congratulations, Michael!
>
> Thank you! I was amused by the subject line, as the book's been out
> over a year in the UK and nine months in the US! But it's still
> selling well (even better after that review came out).
>
> --
> Michael Quinion
> Editor, World Wide Words
> E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
> Web: <" target="l">http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>