From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 02:01:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:01:54 -0500 Subject: Sambuca (1963); Cajun Martini (1982); Champagne Cruise (1959) Message-ID: Some food and drink items. I was going through some San Francisco magazines today. I have one freaking day all week, travel across town to NYU, and it appears that ProQuest is going down for maintenance. I've been staring at blank screens for 15 minutes...Hey ProQuest! How about adding new content in 2004?? Newspaperarchive.com can't be read on my home computer (where I am the "Addams County Historical Society") or on the Macs here at NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- SAMBUCA OED has 1971 for "An Italian liqueur resembling anisette." I remembered that I forgot to do this one. "Sambuca may be the world's most misunderstood liqueur," wrote William Grimes in EQUIRE, September 1987, pg. 54, col. 1. Grimes attributes the popularity to the firm of Molinari in 1959. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... But Melina Is; ... But Melina Is By REX REED. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 30, 1967. p. 111 (2 pages) Pg. 7: Melina takes her shoes off and sips sambuca with espresso coffee beans in it. A Pie Guy and 2 Syrup Men By JEAN HEWITT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1967. p. 36 (1 page): Another concentrated flavor that is compounded on the on the premises is sambuca, an anise flavoring that is a favorite addition to coffee. It can be used in baking, too. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SAMBUCA ROMANA Goods and Services IC 033. US 049. G & S: LIQUEURS. FIRST USE: 19620507. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19631219 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 070902 070905 Serial Number 72221159 Filing Date June 15, 1965 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 1, 1966 Registration Number 0826998 Registration Date April 4, 1967 Owner (REGISTRANT) DITTA PACE-GIPSA-GIACOMO PACE SOCIETA IN ACCOMANDITA SEMPLICE PARTNERSHIP ITALY 10, PIAZZA SAN MARCO ROME ITALY (LAST LISTED OWNER) INDIVINED, B.V. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF NETHERLANDS ARCHANGELKADE 29, 1013 BE AMSTERDAM NETHERLANDS Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record WEISS DAWID FROSS ZELNICK & LEHRMAN Disclaimer APPLICANT, WITHOUT WAIVING ITS COMMON LAW RIGHTS, DISCLAIMS THE WORDS "SAMBUCA ROMANA" APART FROM THE MARK AS A WHOLE. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19870404 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE --------------------------------------------------------------- CAJUN MARTINI There are 622 Google hits for this no-longer-regional drink. April 1987, ESQUIRE, pg. 106, col. 1: _LOUISIANA LIGHTNIN'_ _The martini for many a Cajun_ (...) Here's the formula. Pour a fifth of your favorite gin or vodka and a little dry vermouth into a large jug. Add two or three fresh jalapeno peppers (sliced in half lengthwise, seeded, and deveined) and a single red chili pepper (no more, because the heat/flavor ratio of red chilis isn't as favorable as with jalapenos). Let sit in the refrigerator for two days, then remove the peppers, and taste--on the rocks, in an old-fashioned glass, no garnish. If the result isn't hot enough, put the peppers back in. If too hot, add a little gin or vodka. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) FLYING FISH; FROM THE GRAND OLD TO GRAND NEW, HERE IS WHAT'S BEING SERVED IN AMERICA'S SEAFOOD RESTAURANTS BY PHYLLIS C. RICHMAN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 7, 1982. p. SM12 (12 pages) (Print is too small to be read--ed.) Food Notes Marian Burros. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1983. p. C9 (1 page): Mr. Prudhomme, who has elevated Cajun cooking to a high art in his tiny French Quarter restaurant, has set up 20 of his staff in the Old Waldorf, a former nightclub in San Francisco's Embarcadero Center, and is offering his specialties--Cajun martinis made with hot peppers instead of olives, blackened redfish seared very quickly over high heat, crawfish and sweet potato-pecan pie. Tradition at the Table; A selection of New Orleans restaurants where Creole and Cajun creations are savored By FRED FERRETTI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 26, 1984. p. XX15 (2 pages) Display Ad 289 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1984. p. BR20 (1 page) New Orleans Chef Takes On New York; New Orleans Chef Takes On New York By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 24, 1985. p. C1 (2 pages) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark CHEF PAUL PRUDHOMME'S ORIGINAL K-PAUL'S CAJUN MARTINI "TOTALLY HOT." LOUISIANA KITCHEN Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 033. US 049. G & S: PREPARED ALCOHOLIC COCKTAIL. FIRST USE: 19860502. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860502 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Design Search Code 020101 020120 020132 060703 260925 Serial Number 73628566 Filing Date November 4, 1986 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition August 2, 1988 Registration Number 1538374 Registration Date May 9, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) PRUDHOMME, PAUL INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 406 CHARTRES STREET NEW ORLEANS LOUISIANA 70130 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ARLANA S. COHEN Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "ORIGINAL" AND "CAJUN MARTINI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark THE LINING SHOWN IN THE MARK ON THE DRAWING IS A FEATURE OF THE MARK AND DOES NOT INDICATE COLOR. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Other Data THE PORTRAIT SHOWN IN THE MARK IS THE LIKENESS OF "PAUL PRUDHOMME", A LIVING INDIVIDUAL, WHOSE CONSENT IS OF RECORD. Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1995 --------------------------------------------------------------- CHAMPAGNE CRUISE "Champagne cruise" is not in OED. There are 1,980 Google hits. I had one in Africa--between those stops at gas stations. May 1964, SAN FRANCISCO, pg. 29, col. 3: _CHAMPAGNE CRUISE_ _Special note to San Franciscans who have been perusing these problems common to outlanders with an understandable smugness:_ You can enjoy an outgrowth of the new Tiburon ferry services every Thursday evening--Spring, Summer, and Fall--at 6:30. That's when San Franciscans are invited aboard at Fisherman's Wharf for a "Champagne Cruise" across starlit waters to Tiburon. Once there, you repair to a local wine cellar whose proprietors make free with red, white, and pink samples. (...) The boat trip, the bubbly, the dinner are all included in the $7.50 ticket. ($7.50? This "outlander" will take it!--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 194 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 29, 1959. p. X40 (1 page) (Somewhere here. There are also 1961 ads--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- SPANAKOPETA "Spanakopeta" is not in the OED? Greece? No one from the OED has every heard of Greece? SPANAKOPITA--13,000 Google hits SPANAKOPETA--291 Google hits August 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Dining In" by Ingrid Wilmot, pg. 54: Col. 1: Over coffee and some delicious _Karidopeta_ (Greek Walnut cake), Mrs. Christopher told how, as a young bride, she would phone her mother for step by step directions on preparing dinner. Col. 2: Soupa Avgolemono Col. 2: (If you can obtain some Greek paste called _Kritharake_ or _manestra_, a rice-like grain, it is absolutely delicious and is tender in 10 minutes.) Col. 3: Greek Spinach Squares (_Spanakopeta_) (Recipe follows--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MALFATTI "Malfatti" (spinach and cheese dumplings) is not in the revised OED. There are 352 Google hits for "Malfatti" + "Spinach." May 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, restaurant listings, pg. 19, col. 3: _La Strada_--Why travel when you may enjoy a leisurely COntinental-Italian repast in a Mediterranean-like setting right here? This charming spot has a delightful romantic appeal. Be sure to try the _malfatti_, either as a side order or as your entree. --------------------------------------------------------------- TOSCANO BREAD There are 36 Google hits for "Toscano bread." Not in the OED. June 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 36, col. 2: _Cuneo's Home Style Bread_ is the perfect accompaniment for the sweet butter. Naturally any leading brand of San Francisco's sourdough or French bread will more than do--they are both justifiably famous. But my particular favorite San Francisco bread is a cross between sweet and sour French. THe proprietors of the Cuneo Bakery Co., 523 Green Street, near Grant Avenue, call it--"Cuneo's Home Style Toscano Bread." With a crisp brown crust and almost a white cake texture on the inside, the loaves come in sizes up to six ounds. --------------------------------------------------------------- COULOTTES STEAK Not in OED. (GOOGLE) http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/2001/0901cc.html Those efforts actually began back in the economically uncertain 1980s and ’90s, when consumers began looking for a quality steak — and one that wasn’t chopped sirloin — for less than $10.00. Flank and skirt steak were not yet fashionable on dinner menus. Blade steaks, hanger steaks and coulottes (top sirloin cap steak) were completely unheard of in the Northeast. January 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 36, col. 3: _Coulotte Steaks_...I will probably regret the inclusion of this item forever, because once the word gets around about this great steak, I expect butchers will have a long waiting list...and I'll end up on it! Luckily I have a couple months' supply in my freezer, so full speed ahead. The reason for the rarity of these fabulous steaks is that there are only two on each steer--actually they are the very last cut of the top sirloin. The name "Coulotte" I have seen used only in San Francisco--both in butcher shops and restaurants. (Vanessi's has been featuring Coulotte steaks on its menu for years.) At the butchers', they are cut in two ways: in long blocks weighing about two pounds or in smaller pieces. --------------------------------------------------------------- NUTCORN NUTCORN--506 Google hits NUT CORN--1,450 Google hits (237 with "popcorn") Not in OED. See POPPED CULTURE: A SOCIAL HISTORY OF POPCORN IN AMERICA (1999) by Andrew F. Smith. I don't remember to what extent the book had gone "nuts." December 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 24, col. 1: _NUTCORN_ is not a very unusual confection. It consists of caramel popcorn inter-mixed with assorted nuts. Most popcorn shops carry a version of it. However, although I have tried several local varieties, I have never found a shop which could even approach the quality and flavor achieved by the Nutcorn people in Beverly Hills. Fortunately they sell it by mail all over the world. In their brochure they state that they use real butter. And, of course, one taste will demonstrate the use of only the finest nuts (no peanuts). A one pound tin is $2.50 plus 75c postage west of the Mississippi and 85c east. They gift wrap and enclose your card if time is short. Otherwise send for their complete price list which includes larger sizes. Nutcorn, 9459 Charlesville Blvd., Beverly Hills is the address. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 02:54:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:54:30 -0500 Subject: Lumberjack Breakfast (1937) Message-ID: "Lumberjack breakfast" is not in OED. There are 732 Google hits. SAVEUR, January-February 2004, "Special Issue" (They do this every year--how special is that?), "The SAVEUR 100: Our favorite foods, restaurants, recipes, people, places, & things," pg. 55, col. 2: _THE IF-YOU-CAN-SEE-YOUR-PLATE-IT-AIN'T-BREAKFAST_ _BREAKFAST_ 8. NAMED FOR the big morning meals eaten by American loggers before their day's work and typically including generous portions of pancakes, sausage, eggs, bacon, toast, and potatoes (and sometimes fruit, doughnuts, and/or buttered hardtack), the LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST is served today at coffee shops and diners all over the land, usually whittles down from its Paul Bunyan-esque dimensions to suit more modest appetites. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Editors Are Losing Battle of the Bulge By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1953. p. 43 (1 page): WITHOUT FOOD for eight hours, the editors satisfied their "hidden hunger" at a Lumberjack breakfast, sponsored by Armour and Company Wednesday morning in the Gold Coast Room of the Drake Hotel. (...) What did we eat? Merely sausages, flapjacks, scrambled eggs, fried ham, fried potatoes, bacon, applesauce, rolls and coffee! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 3/1/1937 ...and interiorly strengthened by a light LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST of pork and beans, fried.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, March 01, 1937 879 k Pg. 4, col. 1: "Warmly clothed and interiorly strengthened by a light lumberjack breakfast of pork and beans, fried potatoes, pork sausages, ham and eggs, apple, pumpkin and raisin pie, doughnuts, cookies and a few cups of steaming coffee, I shouldered my gun and started." Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 6/19/1957 ...The auditors enjoyed the an naul LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST while similar BREAKFAST will be.. Walla Walla, Washington Wednesday, June 19, 1957 1034 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 8/24/1961 ...Sirloin of Beef, Roast Chicken, Pancakes LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST 7 a. m. to 11 a. m.....Mangrum of the Afro-4merican (Negro) newspaper rented an African outfit Monday.....Adults Children 4 to M 75c LUMBERJACK from Noon to 9 p. m. -Real OW.....The man asked that the newspaper be billed for the rental, Eckardt.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Thursday, August 24, 1961 764 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/17/1961 ...of Beef, Roast Chicken, Pancakes LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST 7 a.m. to 1 1 a.m. Adult 4-10, 75c.....from Noon to 9 p.m. "Real Old Fashioned LUMBERJACK Bakery" VISIT OUR GIFT SHOP.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, August 17, 1961 677 k Holland Evening Sentinel - 9/10/1964 ...community singing, a square dance and a LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST. Help Us Celebrate Our.. Holland, Michigan Thursday, September 10, 1964 581 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 03:22:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of odds-maker 1931 Message-ID: M-W has ca. 1940 OED doesn't have...but I could have missed it. Using newspaperarchive-- 9 Dec. 1931 _Coshocton(OH) Tribune and Times_ 6/1 < STORY OF MY LIFE Surprise, surprise. Yes, here it is: ProQuest Notice ProQuest is unavailable until 10:00 AM EST while we perform scheduled system maintenance. We apologize for this inconvenience and thank you for your patience. --------------------------------------------------------------- CAPONATA There are 24,400 Google hits for "caponata." OED ("Miserable on Food") does not have an entry, but there is one 1954 hit. Merriam-Webster has 1951. This is a good cite. October 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 38, col. 3: _CAPONATA_ is another wonderful product which comes in cans and is therefore always on hand for emergencies. Although Italians know it more as part of an antipasto, I serve it as an hors d'oeuvre to the delight of guests, who rarely--ifever--have tasted it before. _Caponata_ is an egg plant appetizer containing eggplant, tomato sauce, celery, capers, olives, onions, oil, sugar, vinegar and spices. It is packed in small 4 3/4 ounce cans under the Progresso label. To serve simply open a can and spoon onto melba toast or thin crackers. Sprinkle with lemon juice--an important touch to cut through the richness of the oil--and serve. There are extremely few items which can be used directly from the can to make an unusual and delicious hors d'oeuvre. For that reason I always keep several cans on hand. Although I think you'll join me in thinking _Caponata_ as a delicacy, it is not priced so, and is well below the cost of any cocktail spread. You'll find Progresso _caponata_ in almost any Italian grocery and well stocked supermarkets and gourmet shops. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark PIAZZA'S CAPONATA PERSONAL GOURMET PIZZA Translations The English translation of "PIAZZA" in the mark is "marketplace". The English translation of "CAPONATA" in the mark is "a mix of vegetables". Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: pizza. FIRST USE: 20010806. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010806 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76356237 Filing Date January 7, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 23, 2003 Owner (APPLICANT) S.A. Piazza & Associates, LLC LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY OREGON 15815 SE Piazza Avenue Clackamas OREGON 97015 Attorney of Record Dean T. Sandow Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CAPONATA" and "PERSONAL GOURMET PIZZA" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Distinctiveness Limitation Statement as to "PIAZZA'S" (MERRIAM-WEBSTER) Main Entry: ca·po·na·ta Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: kä-p-nä-t Function: noun Etymology: Italian, from Italian dialect (Sicily) capunata, sailor's dish of biscuit steeped in oil and vinegar, chopped vegetables served similarly, from Catalan caponada dry bread soaked in oil and vinegar, perhaps from capó capon Date: 1951 : a relish of chopped eggplant and assorted vegetables (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Joplin Globe - 10/15/1948 ...GRATING CHEESE ITALIAN SWEET PEPPERS CAPONATA-EGGPLANT APPETIZER BERTOLLI-ITALIAN.. Joplin, Missouri Friday, October 15, 1948 452 k Pg. B-11: _DELICATESSEN DEPT._ NEW ITEMS RAMONA ITALIAN GRATING CHEESE ITALIAN SWEET PEPPERS CAPONATA-EGGPLANT APPETIZER BERTOLLI-ITALIAN OLIVE OIL WHITE OR RED WINE VINEGAR GARGONZOLA & PROVOLONE CHEESE BAR-B-Q SALMON OR PERCH DUTCH GARDEN PRESERVES AND JAMS BAY MULE FOR PACKAGE LIQUORS MAIN AT 27TH ST. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 03:46:11 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:46:11 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sourpuss" 1930 Message-ID: M-W and OED have the same 1937 quote. Using newspaperarchive--- 27 Oct. 1930 _The Gettysburg(PA) Times 4/3 (A syndicated column by O. O. McIntyre) <> From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 04:43:01 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:43:01 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-off-Broadway" 1959 Message-ID: M-W has 1965. OED 1967. So, did Dorothy Kilgallen invent/popularize the "off-off" term? Using newspaperarchive--- 3 March 1959 _Mansfield(OH) Newsjournal_ 15/6-7 (A syndicated column by Dorothy Kilgallen) < Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 11:43:01PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > M-W has 1965. OED 1967. > > So, did Dorothy Kilgallen invent/popularize the "off-off" term? > > Using newspaperarchive--- > > 3 March 1959 [deleted] Someone will likely point out that ProQuest has 1957 evidence for the "off-off" form, from the N.Y. Times. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 04:56:05 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:56:05 -0500 Subject: Varsity's (Atlanta) "Through the Garden" (1973) Message-ID: I re-checked this "hot dog" phrase, and the earliest seems to be Atlanta's famous Varsity--not Chicago. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Fond Du Lac Reporter - 8/25/1973 ...with cream is Joe he explained. "Two HOT DOGS with mustard, two yellow DOGS. A.....all THE way? My boys say, 'Run it THROUGH THE GARDEN.'" Gordy, who now has two.....150-foot chrome sandwich counters or drive THROUGH THE double-deck curb-service lot each.....In9 Serves Patrons Daily ATLANTA, Ga. (AP) THE man who calls himself "THE grandaddy of.. Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Saturday, August 25, 1973 630 k Pg. 13, col. 6: Generations of customers have learned the short-order jargon Gordy said his carhops (Col. 7--ed.) invented. "Coffee with cream is Joe Ree," he explained. "Two hot dogs with mustard, two yellow dogs. A hamburger all the way? My boys say, 'Run it through the garden.'" From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 05:26:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:26:40 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 Message-ID: OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 <> From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 06:05:28 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 01:05:28 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-kilter" 1929 Message-ID: M-W has 1944. OED doesn't have, but cites "out of kilter" well before this. 12 Feb. 1929 Frederick(MD) Post 4/5 <> Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 15:06:18 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:06:18 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 In-Reply-To: <200402010526.i115QkE21195@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. > > 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 Here's earlier: 1901 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Nov. SM7 (ProQuest) "Whistle off key," he replied. "It works like a charm when you are tired and want a nap. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 16:08:30 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:08:30 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), although Joyce elaborates the g-h-o-t-i there, I believe, without actually using "ghoti" per se. Anyway, here is what I believe is the earliest evidence anyone has ever found: 1938 _Christian Science Monitor_ 27 Aug. 17 (ProQuest) A foreigner who insisted that "fish" should be spelled "ghoti" explained it in this fashion: "Gh" is pronounced as in "rough," the "o" as in "women," and the "ti" as in "nation" -- so maybe he's right. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 1 16:55:01 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:55:01 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:08:30AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. > However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and > biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. > The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), ^^^^^^^^^^ ITYM "Finnegans". Jesse Sheidlower From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:30:10 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:30:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Canasta" In-Reply-To: <20040201165500.GA18542@panix.com> Message-ID: canasta (OED July 1948) 1948 _Wash. Post_ 14 May C5 (ProQuest) There is a new game, too. It is called canasta, which means basket in Spanish. A new form of Oklahoma, it is played with two packs of cards. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:45:08 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:45:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bingo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Boy, this one really slipped under the lexicographical radar screen in pre-ProQuest days. The OED and M-W have 1936, but it's all over the Washington Post for a decade before that. bingo2 (OED 1936) 1925 _Wash. Post_ 1 July 2 (ProQuest) The "Bingo" game soon became the big attraction on the grounds, drawing large crowds. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:57:53 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:57:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Paddleball" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paddleball (OED 1935) 1934 _L.A. Times_ 23 Jan. A9 (ProQuest) Handball, cycling, volley ball, fencing, paddle ball, swimming, badminton, squash and gymnastics are included on the program. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 19:16:56 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:16:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jai Alai" In-Reply-To: <200402011757.i11Hvso24839@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: jai alai (OED 1910) 1902 _N.Y. Times_ 10 June 7 (ProQuest) We sit in our box at the Fronton to see Jai Alai. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Feb 1 19:46:07 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:46:07 -0600 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" Message-ID: It would be useful if someone like Jesse working for Oxford included ITYM and such abbreviations in COD's Appendix 7 (Glossary of SMS abbreviations). BTW, what would constitute hard evidence of GBS's having used "ghoti"? HTH. FWIW. TMP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:08:30AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. > > However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and > > biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. > > The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > ITYM "Finnegans". > > Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 1 20:21:39 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:21:39 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: <00ab01c3e8fc$097dd530$2ccb6395@paikeday> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 01:46:07PM -0600, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > It would be useful if someone like Jesse working for Oxford included ITYM > and such abbreviations in COD's Appendix 7 (Glossary of SMS abbreviations). AFAIK, "ITYM" is not used in SMS communications. Also, I work only for OED, I don't have anything to do with the COD. HAND, JTS From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 20:53:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: further minor antedating of jai alai Message-ID: The NYTimes may have possibly borrowed the story from the NY Post. 30 May 1902 _New Oxford(PA) Item_ 3/1 (A very long article on the game, otherwise called 'pelota') "THE GAME OF JAI-ALAI.[title] Only one enterprise...is really prospering greatly in Havana this season, writes a correspondent of the New York Post from Cuba." *There was nothing at the end of the article to indicate that this story was reprinted from another paper. There is also a reference to reading a description of the game in Pierre Loti's "Ramuntcho"(sp?) Sam Clements From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 1 21:14:48 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:14:48 -0600 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: This is to both ans-l and ads-l: The 1980s TV show Dukes of Hazard included a perpetually bumbling sheriff's deputy named Rosco P. Coltrane. I've recently noticed that "rosco(e)" was (perhaps still is) a cant term meaning "pistol, revolver." Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV show? There's of course also "Colt" in his last name "Coltrane." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 22:14:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:14:06 -0500 Subject: "Put Some South in Your Mouth" (1944, 1972) Message-ID: Paula Dean (a Charleston cook on the Food Network) told viewers to "put some South in your mouth." This food phrase hasn't been recorded. "South in your mouth" has 490 Google hits. Google Groups has it from about 1995, illustrating the recent popularity. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark "PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH" Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: Restaurant Services. FIRST USE: 19720713. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19720713 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73357172 Filing Date March 29, 1982 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition February 15, 1983 Registration Number 1237818 Registration Date May 10, 1983 Owner (REGISTRANT) Black; T. Jack INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Old Hickory House, Suite 9 480 E. Paces Ferry Road Atlanta GEORGIA 30305 (LAST LISTED OWNER) OLD HICKORY HOUSE PROPERTIES, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF GEORGIA 480 EAST PLACES FERRY ROAD ATLANTA GEORGIA 30305 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Julius R. Lunsford, Jr. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YO' MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19890907. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19890907 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73832178 Filing Date October 18, 1989 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) LETTUCE ENTERTAIN YOU ENTERPRISES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 5419 NORTH SHERIDAN ROAD CHICAGO ILLINOIS 60640 Attorney of Record LARRY L. SARET Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date July 3, 1990 Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GOURMET GRITS "A TOUCH OF THE SOUTH TO PUT IN YOUR MOUTH" Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: mixture of corn grits and other grains Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 74325326 Filing Date October 26, 1992 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Teate, Thomas Luten INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 3969 Marianna Rd Jacksonville FLORIDA 32217 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date August 20, 1993 Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YO' MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: sauces. FIRST USE: 19950805. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950805 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76349838 Filing Date December 19, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Brother Jimmy's BBQ, Inc. CORPORATION NEW YORK 1747 First Avenue New York NEW YORK 10128 Attorney of Record Noah Klarish Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date October 2, 2002 Word Mark WES RIBHOUSE PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Restaurant Franchising Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030709 030726 Serial Number 78129804 Filing Date May 19, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Wes' Smoked Foods International, Inc. CORPORATION RHODE ISLAND 38 Dike Street Providence RHODE ISLAND 02909 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 17, 2003 Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH BIG MAMA'S BAR-B-Q SAUCE ORIGINAL WORLD FAMOUS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Food condiments, namely barbecue sauce Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 020301 200310 240907 260721 261120 261121 261125 261313 261316 261321 Serial Number 76537146 Filing Date August 13, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) McWhorter Enterprises, Ltd. LTD LIAB CO NEVADA 2230 West Bonanza Las Vegas NEVADA 89103 Attorney of Record Robert Ryan Morishita Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) North, East, South in your mouth Levine, Al. The Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution. Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 16, 1994. p. A3 Put Some (New) South in Your Mouth Mackle, Elliott. The Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution. Atlanta, Ga.: Jun 16, 1990. p. WL29 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 5 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 27, 1944. p. 6 (1 page): _The South in your mouth_ Here's real Southern-style Buttermilk Corn Bread:... GOLDEN STATE (Buttermilk and various products--ed.) ^3^^ x. j ^^* u-^ By Paul Herron /M A^f J. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 30, 1952. p. B9 (1 page): Original recipes from old New Orleans. If you want the taste of the south in your mouth you're invited to the Jazzland, Washington's newest club at 3135 K st. nw. Jeeter's Got Himself a Factory Job By Relman Morin. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 30, 1953. p. B3 (1 page): How is the newly arrived Northerner getting along in this changing South? "You get the South in your mouth in a hurry," most of them tell you. Washington Wire; A Special Weekly Report From The Wall Street Journal's Capital Bureau Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 30, 1983. p. 1 (1 page): Alabama Sen. Heflin inserts in the Congressional Record the complete lyrics of "Put Some South in Your Mouth" by George "Goober" Lindsay. Sophistication Spices Southern Food; Sophistication in Southern Food By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1985. p. C1 (2 pages): Pg. C8: An advertisement for Dip's promises to "Put a Taste of the South in Your Mouth." (WWW.AUGUSTAARCHIVES.COM) (I haven't checked them all. This doesn't work on the MAC browser...For "South in your mouth." There were NO hits for "put some South in your mouth"--ed.) 1. Page 3 - 02/15/1862 (A) 2. Page 8 - 07/12/1909 (A) 3. Page 1 - 09/20/1967 (A) 4. Page 4 - 07/02/1955 (A) 5. Page 6 - 08/19/1998 (C) 6. Page 3 - 08/20/1989 (D) 7. Page 2 - 01/19/1947 (A) 8. Page 13 - 10/04/1995 (A) 9. Page 3 - 08/28/1914 (A) 10. Page 2 - 11/03/1903 (A) 11. Page 9 - 11/19/1911 (A) 12. Page 5 - 09/22/2000 (B) 13. Page 4 - 02/05/1944 (A) (Walter Winchell Column, in column three--ed.) At the Little Palm: "Has she a Dixie accent? She's got south in the mouth." 14. Page 3 - 08/16/1985 (-Editions-) 15. Page 8 - 03/02/1987 (-Editions-) 16. Page 8 - 11/15/1964 (A) 17. Page 3 - 09/15/1956 (A) 18. Page 1 - 08/16/1985 (A) 19. Page 10 - 03/02/1987 (A) 20. Page 2 - 04/15/1956 (A) 21. Page 7 - 07/12/1946 (A) 22. Page 8 - 12/03/1900 (A) 23. Page 1 - 11/24/1944 (A) 24. Page 1 - 09/20/1989 (B) 25. Page 3 - 06/03/1874 (A) 26. Page 2 - 03/18/1916 (A) 27. Page 10 - 12/19/1965 (B) 28. Page 2 - 09/07/1946 (A) 29. Page 1 - 08/16/1985 (-Editions-) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 22:34:21 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:34:21 -0500 Subject: Chocoholics (1949); Chocoholic (1964) Message-ID: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, has 1968 for "chocoholic." I can't open www.newspaperarchive.com on the MACs, so I went to the DELLs, and then I couldn't open up AOL...Despite yesterday's ProQuest "maintenance," it appears that the LOS ANGELES TIMES still hasn't added more content since December 15, 2003. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Chocoholics") Coshocton Tribune - 8/29/1976 ...and pour over the cake. And for the CHOCOHOLICS a chocolate zucchini cake. This.....publicize it for six to eight weeks in a newspaper or a daily law bulletin. Next step.. Coshocton, Ohio Sunday, August 29, 1976 606 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 11/29/1949 ...sure you have heard people call themselves 'CHOCOHOLICS', 'cake-aholics' or says Dr.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Chocoholic") Lethbridge Herald - 1/18/1968 ...States' immobile position on Vietnam." The newspaper France Soir, in the first French.....future. .Frances Grossehmig showing her "CHOCOHOLIC" tendencies as she polished off.....Johnson in fact slightly hardened his the newspaper said. France Soir charged Johnson.....the' government with articles in the newspaper La -Hora. The blasted the car 'in.. Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, January 18, 1968 683 k Daily Times News - 3/24/1964 ...include petitions for will power. How this "CHOCOHOLIC" needed wiH power The first three.. Burlington, North Carolina Tuesday, March 24, 1 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Feb 1 22:52:54 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:52:54 -0800 Subject: words of prey Message-ID: Palo Alto Daily News, Sunday 1 February, p. 18, police blotter listings for the city of Atherton (CA): ----------------- YESTERDAY 100 block Selby Lane, 10:15 a.m.: A man suspicious-looking man [sic] was riding around on his bike, asking for work and using "words of prey." Officers were unable to locate the man. ------------------ "words of prey"? anyone have cites on this? or insights? a google search provides 300+ pages, almost all for the Words of Prey message board (Women of Gotham + Canary.Noir.com -- comics fans) or for the Sepultura song lyrics for "Arise" (1991) ("Hungry for words of prey"), plus a few references to an Alan Malnar article on Robinson Jeffers and to some poems and plays with this title; the expression is an easy play on "birds of prey". but what did the suspicious-looking man on the bicycle say? "caw, caw", like a raven or crow? "want some ice cream, little girl/boy?", like a sexual predator. or what? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 23:21:42 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:21:42 -0500 Subject: Dashi (1955); Daikon (1873) Message-ID: Two Japanese food terms. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DASHI I had posted 1960, M-W has 1961 and OED has 1963. The 1950s LOS ANGELES TIMES probably has "dashi," BUT WE WILL NEVER KNOW. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Sukiyaki And Jempura By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1955. p. SM50 (2 pages) Second page: it is composed of soy sauce heated with dashi (a kind of stock made from dried bonito), sugar and monosodium glutamate, the vegetable protein seasoning sold here under such trade names as Accent and known in Japan as aji-no-moto. Food: From Japan; Store on the Upper West Side Offers Wide Variety of Far East Delicacies By MAYBURN KOSS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 12, 1958. p. 37 (1 page) : 1/2 cup Dashi (soup stock) or beef consomme Favorite Recipes Get Glottal Vote At Conference By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1958. p. C8 (1 page): Note: Dashi is made from sea weed or dried bonito (flaked): To 1 cup of water, add 1/4 cup bonito flakes (those may be bought at Japanese food market). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAIKON OED ("miserable on food") does not have an entry for "daikon." There are 62,900 Google hits. M-W has 1876--probably the last citation below. (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Author: Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911. Title: Japanese-English and English-Japanese dictionary. Publication date: 1873. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 206: ONE, (_daikon_), _n._ A radish. Title: The American cyclopædia: Publication date: 1873-76. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 1 match in full text Pg. 532: Many of these were introduced by the Dutch, and some by Com. perry. The _daikon_, an enormous radish, often 30 in. long and 4 thick, is a staple article of food in both the fresh and pickled state. The food of the people is mainly vegetables and fish. Author: Griffis, William E. Title: Inside a Japanese House Publication Info.: Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. / Volume 15, Issue 373, May 13, 1876, pp.626-628 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 6 matches in full text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 00:11:12 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:11:12 -0500 Subject: Parslied (1916), Parsleyed (1926) & Paula (from Savannah) Message-ID: PAULA DEAN: She's from Savannah, not Charleston. I always type the wrong city. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PARSLIED, PARSLEYED You got anything for "parsleyed" or "parslied" adj. before 1928? --e-mail message, received in Mali There isn't a whole lot. I checked the AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE, MAKING OF AMERICA, GERRITSEN COLLECTION, AUGUSTA ARCHIVES, UTAH DIGITAL NEWSPAPERS, various Cornell University digital databases (women's periodicals and agricultural periodicals), and more. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 16 -- No Title Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Feb 9, 1916. p. 5 (1 page) : English Beef with Barley or Clam Chowder on Tasse (illegible--ed.) Boiled Red Snapper a la Hollandaise and Parslied Potato Feeding the Hungry at St. Elizabeths; Special Corps of Dietitians Look After Meals for 4,000 Inmates, Giving Menus With Daily Changes By JOHN J. DALY.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1926. p. SM3 (1 page) Col. 6: Sunday--Roast beef, gravy, parsleyed potatoes, string beans, bread, oleo, creamy rice pudding. Display Ad 51 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 10, 1927. p. S5 (1 page) : Parslied New Potatoes From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 00:18:54 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:18:54 -0500 Subject: Chocoholics (1949); Chocoholic (1964) In-Reply-To: <4067ADE2.37F3F25B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Berkshire Evening Eagle - 11/29/1949 > > ...sure you have heard people call themselves 'CHOCOHOLICS', > 'cake-aholics' or says Dr.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, A misdating, of course. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 00:29:41 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:29:41 -0500 Subject: words of prey In-Reply-To: <5EEDB76E-5509-11D8-9FD3-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >"words of prey"? anyone have cites on this? or insights? Unless it's a regionalism or neologism, I don't think it has any meaning as it stands. My naive guess is that it's a malapropism: he was using nasty language, maybe obscene or racial epithets, and some citizen reached deep for an appropriate description, likely "words of abuse" or so, and got it garbled, mixed with "birds of prey". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 00:32:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > show? Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name too AFAIK. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 2 00:45:53 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:45:53 -0500 Subject: words of prey Message-ID: Maybe the guy was a fan of Hitchcock. Google for a 1986 cite for "words of prey." Or, maybe, he said "words of PRAY" and was, in reality, a religious nut. From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 2 01:52:15 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:52:15 -0800 Subject: Sambuca (1963); Cajun Martini (1982); Champagne Cruise (1959) In-Reply-To: <200402010202.i11227Nu013564@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Sambuca is elderberry. Sambuca several years ago was developed into a cough syrup at Hadassah Hospital, Jerusalem, by a Turkish doctor. One can find cuogh syrup and lozenges. It works! Some say it's anti-flu, but I can't guarantee that. European women also use it as a diuretic. So it goes beyond flavoring! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 02:03:10 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:03:10 -0500 Subject: Hill of Beans (1853); Cajeta (1854); "Chocoholics" misdating Message-ID: CHOCOHOLICS: � Yes, it's a misdating. � I switched computers and looked at it. � The "1949" citation is from 1983! � ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HILL OF BEANS � � The HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG uses OED's 1863 citation. � � (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Article 6 -- No Title GEO KETCHUM. The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Apr 1853. Vol. 14, Iss. 4; p. 124 (2 pages) Pg. 125: � Pear on the quince has never amounted to a hill of beans with us yet; it is doubtful whether they will, for the quince itself does poorly, and with the best care is short lived, although in some locations they are fine, but such are rare. � WHY DO FARMER SO GENERALLY NEGLECT THEIR GARDENS? AND THE BEST MEANS OF RECTIFYING THE EVIL. HUBERT. The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Mar 1857. Vol. 18, Iss. 3; p. 88 (2 pages) Pg. 88: � And those who will scarcely raise a hill of beans, or cucumbers, will devour with gusto the luxuries of the garden, when provided by others;... � Art. V.--The Holy Land Anonymous. Christian Examiner (1857-1869). New York: Sep 1857. Vol. 63, Iss. 2; p. 211 (20 pages) � ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAJETA � � This "SAVEUR 100" list is definitely quirky. � � #83 is the GRAND CENTRAL OYSTER BAR & RESTAURANT. � For a long time now, its workers have been on strike. � They are very vocal--and I've walked through Grand Central at various times. � A huge blow-up "rat" is outside Grand Central Terminal. � What a lovely sight for tourists to our city. � Organized labor can get away with everything in New York. � #61--LOX AND BAGELS. � #100--COLD PIZZA. � (This is "COOLEST ITALIAN-AMERICAN BREAKFAST." � Italians should sue.) � #85: � "Want to know who invented the potato chip or what the Vikings ate? � You'll find the answers at FOODTIMELINE.ORG, one of the Internet's trustiest food-history resources." � (Actually, the thing is riddled with errors.) � On page 73 is "Cajeta de Pina y Platano (Pineapple and Banana Dessert)": CAJETA, says (Diana--ed.) Kennedy, was the name originally given to small wooden boxes used for storing sweets but has come to mean a specific sweetmeat, a paste made of fruits, nuts, or thickened milk. � � There are 8,890 Google hits for "cajeta." � "Cajeta" is not in the OED ("miserable on food"). � � � (GOOGLE) http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food cajeta [kah-HAY-tah] A thick, dark syrup or paste made from caramelized sugar and milk — traditionally goat's milk, although cow's milk is often used. Cajeta can be found in several flavors (primarily caramel and fruit) in Latin markets. It's used in Mexico and in some South American countries primarily as a dessert by itself or as a topping for ice cream or fruit. � � (GOOGLE) http://www.internationalrecipesonline.com/recipes/dictionary.pl?1153 A thick, dark syrup or paste made from caramelized sugar and milk — traditionally goat's milk, although cow's milk is often used. Cajeta can be found in several flavors (primarily caramel and fruit) in Latin markets. It's used in Mexico and in some South American countries primarily as a dessert by itself or as a topping for ice cream or fruit. � � (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mountain Democrat - 7/31/1996 ...a soft cheese I'd made, the other for my CAJETA. CAJETA is a sweet cheese desert.....ll also be entering a soft cheese again, my CAJETA, and my goat butter." Although.. Placerville, California � Wednesday, July 31, 1996� 600 k� � � Frederick County Leader - 6/18/1999 ...are a couple worth trying at Mi Rancho. The CAJETA, or fried ice cream, is different than.. Frederick, Maryland � Friday, June 18, 1999� 646 k� � Chronicle Telegram - 6/4/1998 ...blackberry, Lebanese date and Mexican CAJETA. All that for just 20 cents each. At.. Elyria, Ohio � Thursday, June 04, 1998� 659 k� � Daily Report - 5/13/1970 ...flan de leche, salsa cruda, crepe con CAJETA, pan dulce and cafe con leche. Mrs.. Ontario, California � Wednesday, May 13, 1970� 847 k � � (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Mexico's Central Valley Contains Scenic Variety Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 10, 1939. p. C4 (1 page) : � Perhaps you will set out from the village of San Miguel de Allende, perched on the mountainside surveying this great central valley, and turning southward you will travel to the thriving town of Celaya, famous for its churches, whose curiously open belfries are the signature of the great architect Tresguerras. � here too is made the delicious "cajeta de Celaya," a milk and sugar candy that comes in little wooden boxes, dozens of which you fit into the corners of a suitcase. � � meet manhattan By Marilyn Hoffman. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 3, 1963. p. 10 (1 page): � We are bursting at the seams with tortillas, enchiladas, hot tamales, avocado salads, plus numerous Continental-inspired dishes since Mexico's haute cuisine has become a deft mixture of Indian, Spanish, French and other European kitchen secrets. � Any tourist visiting Mexico can eat very well, indeed, at prices not far below those for comparable meals in the United States. � he can order food as hot and spicy as he can stand it, or as mild and bland as the custardy nut cajeta desserts, which are traditional here. � Display Ad 68 -- No Title Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 30, 1969. p. 19 (1 page): We also bring Italian Dressing to the Italians. � And Kraft Cheddar to the English and Kraft Cajeta to the Mexicans. � � � (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) NOTES FROM MY KNAPSACK.; NUMBER IV. MARCH RENEWED--NANA--SENORITA--NORTHEE--SAN FERNANDO--ARBOLEDO DE LOS ANGELOS--FRIENTE DEL TAJA--A CHASE--DIALOGUE--PASSAGE OF THE ALAMOS AND SABINOS--CAPITULATION OF SANTA ROSA-TROPHIES--MINING--DRAMATIC AND DIPLOMATIC. Putnam's Monthly Magazine of American Literature, Science, and Art (1853-1857). New York: Jun 1854. Vol. VOL. III., Iss. --NO. XVIII.; p. 660 (12 pages): Pg. 665: � The enterprising proprietor was on a trading expedition, his stock consisting of _queso_, a sort of curd cheese, and a species of preserves, somewhat resembling marmalade, which the Mexicans call _cajeta de membrillero_. There is but a slight taste of the quince preserved, and the article would hardly establish a reputation for the _artiste_. � It seems, however, to be a choice specimen of native manufacture, and rates (financially) accordingly. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 03:28:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:28:58 -0500 Subject: Zip Sauce (from Detroit) Message-ID: "Zip sauce" is a regional American dish (Detroit). DARE?? There are 293 Google hits. I found this while looking at Phaedrus "Finder of Lost Recipes." There's nothing at all on www.newspaperarchive.com. (GOOGLE) http://beef.allrecipes.com/az/ZipSc.asp Zip Sauce Submitted by: Kim "This is the famous zip sauce that goes with steak served locally in Detroit. It really brings out the best in beef, and adds a spicy punch to the flavor." (GOOGLE) http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m012903.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" To: phaedrus Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: zip sauce > Dear Uncle P > > High end Italian restaurants in the Detroit area serve "zip sauce" with > a filet of beef. I don't know how to descibe the sauce other than it is > oily, buttery and beefy all at the same time. I understand clarified > butter is a large part of the sauce. I believe a product called Flavor > Glo is also used in the sauce, possibly as a flavor enhancer. I have > tried a copycat recipe on the beef.allrecipes.com website, but it isn't > the real thing. The sauce seems to be a closely guarded secret. > > Can you find out how they make the real thing Uncle P ? > > Dave > Sauceless in Detroit Hello Dave, I didn't have much luck. The one on beef.allrecipes is everywhere, and it claims to be like what Detoit restaurants serve. I'll take your word that it's not right. I did find another one, but it's very similar to that one. it's below. The only thing I could flind on "Flavor Glow" (Nothing at all on "Flavor Glo"), was that there's a gravy mix with that name.There is a source for it here: http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m012903.htm#3">Most Popular Sorry. Phaed (FACTIVA) The Palm wants hands of time to fly at lunch 624 words 2 June 2003 Crain's Detroit Business 21 (...) Small wonders at Small Plates If you're looking for something in between the two aforementioned options for lunch, try Small Plates on Broadway just behind the Detroit Opera House. The tapas-style menu - hence the restaurant's name - has a variety of choices. If chicken florentine is the special, order it. However, you can't go wrong with the rest of the menu, although the portabello mushroom in zip sauce is a little salty for some tastes (i.e.: mine). (...) (WWW.FREEP.COM)(DETROIT FREE PRESS, ARCHIVES) Detroit Free Press (MI) THE ZIP ADDS DASH TO FILLET Published on April 10, 1996. 976 words Article 13 of 13 found. BY SUSAN SELASKY Free Press Test Kitchen Director Twenty years ago Michael Jepko had every intention of pursuing a job as a land surveyor. That didn't happen. While Jepko was in the Army, his stepfather, Alfred Valente, opened Maria's Pizzaria, a carry-out in Detroit. So, after spending two years in the Army studying to be a surveyor, Jepko joined the family business. Jepko, 40, head chef at Ristorante di Maria in West Bloomfield (1-810-851-2502, 4:30-11 daily) was tagged two weeks ago by Patrick Roettele of the (There are 13 hits. This appears to be the best. I don't feel like paying $2.95 for this. Maybe Fred's Nexis has it?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 03:47:57 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:47:57 -0500 Subject: More "Zip Sauce," from DETROIT NEWS Message-ID: The DETROIT FREE PRESS has archives back to 1994, and there were 13 "zip sauce" hits. I just checked the DETROIT NEWS (www.detnews.com). The archives go back to 2000, but there are 16 hits. Plus, the DETROIT NEWS archives are free! http://www.detnews.com/2001/food/0125/reader/reader.htm 25 January 2001 Please help these readers in their search for recipes: Tim Kelleher of Detroit: Zip sauce like that served at the old Lelli’s restaurant. http://www.detnews.com/2003/entertainment/0310/17/e12-299792.htm 17 October 2003 Restaurant Review Old favorites are new again at Lelli's By Molly Abraham / Special to The Detroit News Lelli's of Auburn Hills 885 Opdyke Road Auburn Hills (248) 373-4440. AUBURN HILLS -- Any restaurant with a menu cover that reads "Since 1939" deserves respect. And even though Lelli's is no longer in its original Detroit location, that patchwork of rooms with butter-colored stucco walls on Woodward Avenue just north of Grand Boulevard, in its suburban reincarnation it remains a restaurant where the old values are very much in place. The waitstaff is in black tie. The curvy banquettes along the wall are plump and inviting, the white linen-covered tables nicely spaced, lights low. The classic roadhouse menu is rife with vintage items such as prosciutto with melon, chicken cacciatore, zuppa inglese and biscuit tortoni. You almost expect to see Chianti in straw-wrapped bottles. It's the kind of restaurant that's comforting in its complete lack of trendiness. And it's interesting to note that it draws a young crowd that probably never dined at the old Lelli's (which burned down on Valentine's Day in 2000), along with their elders who did. It was interesting the other evening to watch how many patrons were ordering Chateaubriand (at $42 per person) -- and that included both the young and the formerly young in the Friday night crowd. That vintage dish of beef tenderloin surrounded, in Lelli's case, by au gratin potatoes, glazed carrots and creamed spinach, is still a crowd pleaser with its tableside presentation that makes a production out of the meal. Lelli's is benefitting from the fact that many of these old dishes are new again, getting an appreciative eye from those finding the gems for the first time. The "new" Lelli's, run by the founders' son Michael, and his son and daughter, Steve and Rebecca, opened in 1996 in a free-standing building about a half mile north of the Silverdome. Its two spacious dining rooms flank a central bar, and while this may look like a place where a cigar or two could be seen, the entire restaurant is nonsmoking. Full-course dinners still begin with an antipasto tray of the Italian cold meats, salami, mortadella and capicola, sliced paper-thin and definitely the stars of the tray, along with a small chunk of mild cheese, one shrimp per person, some pepperoncini and not very choice black olives. The tray has a skimpy look, but given what is to follow for those ordering the full dinner including even the finishing touch of spumoni, skimpiness turns out to be a blessing in disguise. Next comes Lelli's minestrone, a signature dish for years, creamy and delicate rather than robust, its tomato base tinted pink with the addition of cream, and the vegetables nearly pureed. It too is a classic, made from a recipe the family has always kept a secret. A simple green salad follows, dotted with plump little garbanzo beans, in the kind of subtle, vinegar and oil dressings that outscore the sometimes overly elaborate concoctions dreamed up by contemporary chefs. Less should be more when it comes to dressing, and this one glazes but doesn't overwhelm the fresh greens. (And no, they aren't the bitter field greens, as you can probably guess.) A side dish of spaghetti with Bolognese sauce precedes the chosen entree, which for many people is going to be what the menu calls "Our famous broiled filet mignon." (THIS PARAGRAPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--ed.) It's a knockout, plump, tender but not soft, and pretty much unadorned, which is the way it should be. I never could understand smothering good beef with overpowering sauces, although the house zip sauce -- another vintage item -- is a requirement for many diners. Like the minestrone, its recipe is never divulged. But an amateur sleuth thinks it might be a mix of butter, olive oil and teriyaki seasoning. The only other accompaniment: the excellent house au gratin potatoes. Of course, there is much more to choose from than just "our famous filet." There are veals in treatments from Marsala to Tosca, all Provimi, and the long list of house-made pastas includes several versions of spaghetti with sauces ranging from meat and marinara to red and white clam; baked lasagna, fettuccine Alfredo and the most popular of all, mostacioli with palmina, a pale, creamy tomato sauce. The pasta price structure, however, is jarring. Even simple spaghetti Bolognese is $21, with several others hitting the $25 to $27 mark as part of the full dinner. (Light dinners, including just soup or salad, side dish of spaghetti or potato, are $5 to $6 less expensive). On Sundays, Lelli's trots out an admirable children's menu, which includes a 3-ounce filet for gourmands in training. It's $9.50 with all the trimmings. The Lelli family still owns the piece of land on Woodward Avenue in midtown Detroit where the original flourished for so many years, making it possible that the fourth generation could some day return to the city. After all, their former neighbors, the Detroit Lions, did. You can reach Molly Abraham at (313) 222-1475 or abraham67@ comcast.net. Jane Rayburn will return next week. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 04:25:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:25:56 -0500 Subject: Caponata (1931) (continued) Message-ID: ProQuest has this earlier. It was down when I had posted yesterday. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WOMEN ASK MAYORS ABOUT JOBLESS AID; Mrs. Harriman Queries Six on What They Are Doing for Members of Her Sex. ITALIAN DAY AT EXPOSITION Mrs. Casanova Wins Cullnary Prize at Industrial Show With Eggplant Entree, Caponata. Women Show Inventions. Shorthand Test Today. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1931. p. 2 (1 page): Yesterday was Italian Day, and Mrs. Casanova of 32 West Seventieth Street won first prize for a dish called caponata, an eggplant entree. News of Food; Specialist in Supplying Unusual Foods Once Filled Order for Kangaroo Tail Soup By JANE HOLT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 14, 1944. p. 12 (1 page): Her specialty is in filling requests for what most of us think of a luxuries--pear vinegar, tiny cocktail onions, caponata (eggplant sauce used by Italians as part of the hors d'oeuvres or antipasto). Display Ad 77 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 10, 1945. p. 23 (1 page): _Caponata Egg Plant Appetizer,_ Italian style hors d'oeuvre, unusual flavor. 4 1/2 ounces...6/85c (GIMBELS--ed.) Display Ad 109 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1945. p. 29 (1 page) Display Ad 11 -- No Title The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Dec 16, 1955. p. 12 (1 page) (Progresso CAPONATA--ed.) Viva Antipasto! Italian Specialty Is Tempting Treat!; ANTIPASTI ASSORTITI BURRI VARIATI PER ANTIPASTI CAPONATA ALLA SICILIANA Add Latin Lilt to Menus PEPERONI E OLIVE ALLA SICILIANA ANTIPASTO NAPOLETANO OLIVES SICILIAN STYLE GAMBERETTI CON SPEZIE CHEESE BALLS, SORRENTO STYLE STUFFED FRESH FIGS By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1964. p. C1 (2 pages) From thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 2 04:47:10 2004 From: thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Ray) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:47:10 -0600 Subject: Remove me from the list Message-ID: Justin Ray Romans 5:8 Cell: 205-242-4679 From thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 2 05:04:20 2004 From: thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Ray) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:04:20 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Please remove me from the list Justin Ray Romans 5:8 Cell: 205-242-4679 From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 06:06:36 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 01:06:36 -0500 Subject: "hobo"--plausibility it derived the shout "Ho bo!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >But the plausibility of the shout "Ho bo!" remains, and that's the heart >of the matter. I think it's plausible. However I doubt that "Ho" is simply a contraction of "Hello". Plausibility is a start only. It's a very good start if there's only one plausible theory. Usually IMHO there are several plausible ones, including some which nobody has put forth. One usually would like to find material supporting one's theory; perhaps, theoretically, refutation of all competing theories would suffice in some rare cases. I suspect that if you can explain "ho-boy" = "nightman" from the 1850's then you may have a good start on "hobo". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 07:12:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:12:19 EST Subject: Antedating of "Bingo" (1923) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/1/2004 12:45:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > bingo2 (OED 1936) > > 1925 _Wash. Post_ 1 July 2 (ProQuest) The "Bingo" game > soon became the > big attraction on the grounds, drawing large crowds. Oh, all right. I thought Sam does these things. Newspaperarchive.com is not working again--the date range limit doesn't work and I get all dates for "bingo." I'm using Ancestry.com, with first name "bingo" and last name "game*" between the years 1918-1924. "BINGO" is not simple. First, the word pre-existed the game. Second, there may have been other games with the same name of "BINGO." BTW: The "1918" MOUNT PLEASANT NEWS (Iowa) stories are really from 1948. (ANCESTRY.COM) 15 August 1923, IOWA RECORDER (Greene, Iowa), pg. 1, col. 5: "This office is receiving numerous inquiries from the fair secretaries regarding the corn game, bingo, corno, etc., and for that reason it is thought advisable to issue this letter. "The above games and games of this nature are games of chance, pure and simple, and are considered gambling games under the Iowa laws. The corn game and its associates are nothing but the old "keno" game of years ago. "We have adevice from Attorney General Gibson that this game is not allowable under the laws of this state and it has already been closed at several places this season. No fair can afford to lose their state aid, so keep your midway clean. "This office recommends that you abide strictly by the Iowa laws and allow nothing but games of skill. Protect yourself and do not sell privileges for corn games, corno, bingo, etc., wheels of any kind or any other game of chance." (...) 18 January 1924, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg. 5?, col. 1: The next card party will be given on Jan. 31. A corn game, called bingo, is scheduled for next Wednesday night. 24 January 1924, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg. 5, col. 2: A large crowd attended the bingo corn game given by the Loyal Order of Moose Wednesday night in Moose temple. (ADS-L ARCHIVES) (27 June 2001 post from Bapopik at aol.com) BINGO (continued) From THIS WEEK, NYHT, "Bingo!", (Pg. number cut off), col. 3: Despite its obvious derivation from lotto, which itself is a variation of the ancient Greek pastime, bingo recently has been claimed as the brainchild (Col. 4--ed.) of two Americans. Hugh J. Ward, of Hazlewood, Pittsburgh, was the first to put himself forward as the "inventor" of the game. He got the idea, he said, at the Toronto Exposition in 1916, when he saw several Canadian soldiers playing a game they called "horsey-horsey." Also similar to lotto, the soldiers' game had 109 combinations. Ward says he reduced the combinations to 75, dubbed his game bingo, and began operating it at carnivals.Several Chicago companies started making bingo sets in 1924, and in 1933, as the game began to achieve popularity, Ward wrote a book of bingo rules and published it. Directly it was copyrighted.(...)(Col. 5--ed.)The other "inventor" had better luck. A Massachusetts game manufacturer, who claimed to have popularized the game in 1933, argued that he had coined the word "beano." Taking the case into court, he won the sole right to that name, and bingo sponsors were forbidden to call their games beano unless they used his equipment. (...) (So maybe the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, you know, the publication that was digitized last summer...--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 08:45:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 03:45:27 EST Subject: "I'm from Missouri"--show the NY TIMES Message-ID: From Monday's (today's) NEW YORK TIMES" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/opinion/02DOAK.html In Missouri, Hard Soil and Straight Talk By DAVID DOAK Published: February 2, 2004 READERS' OPINIONS WASHINGTON — A Missouri congressman once declared: "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me." More than a century later, understanding Missouri — the state where I grew up — begins with understanding the show-me mentality. (...) Missouri Congressman Williard Van Diver didn't coin the phrase. If he did say this, it was in 1900, not 1899. Our first citation is from 1897. Van Diver didn't even popularize "show me" in 1900, because "show me" was already popular during the 1898 Transmississippi Exposition. An 1898 song with this "I'm from Missouri-Show Me" title was published by New York songwriters years before Van Diver's alleged speech (and we don't even have a contemporary citation for it). Maybe Gerald Cohen can write a letter and set the "straight talk" straight. If it's not from "Barry Popik," it might at least have a chance to be published. From slangman at PACBELL.NET Mon Feb 2 14:34:11 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:34:11 -0800 Subject: "Shit Happens" Message-ID: Connie Eble recorded "shit happens" at page 5 of her Spring 1983 list, "UNC-CH Slang." Tom Dalzell Fred Shapiro wrote: >The earliest hit on Nexis for "shit happens" is Washington Post, 8 June >1988, referring to a bumper sticker. There is some slightly earlier >evidence on Google groups. > >Can anyone shed any other light on the early history of this expression? >Jesse, what is the earliest evidence in the HDAS files? the OED files? > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 15:29:32 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:29:32 EST Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" says > > > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > > show? > > Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name > too AFAIK. Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the Betty Boop era? There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. The town is best known for being connected to Snyder, Texas, by the grandiloquently-named "Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad". (Which in turn spawned a tall tale about the would-be robber baron Roscoe Snyder.) - Jim Landau From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Mon Feb 2 15:34:43 2004 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:34:43 -0600 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: <20040202152956.XVQA10789.sccmgwc01.mchsi.com@sccmgwc01.mchsi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:30 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? > > Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the > Betty Boop > era? That would be Bosko. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.569 / Virus Database: 360 - Release Date: 1/26/2004 From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 15:37:17 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:37:17 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:06:18AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > > > OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. > > > > 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 > > Here's earlier: > > 1901 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Nov. SM7 (ProQuest) "Whistle off key," he replied. > "It works like a charm when you are tired and want a nap. There's yet earlier (1899) in Cornell MOA, from the Atlantic Monthly. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 15:59:53 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:59:53 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: <18b.25019b37.2d4fc6dc@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" > says >> >> > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV >> > show? >> >> Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name >> too AFAIK. > >Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the Betty Boop >era? > >There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road (Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. larry >The town >is best known for being connected to Snyder, Texas, by the >grandiloquently-named "Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad". >(Which in turn spawned a tall tale >about the would-be robber baron Roscoe Snyder.) > > - Jim Landau From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 16:15:09 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:15:09 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" >> says >> >>There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. > >Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road >(Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept >Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. The Roscoe Diner! It was the normally stopping-off point on drives between NYC and Ithaca when I was a student at Cornell, and, for all I know, it still is. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 16:16:31 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:16:31 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 10:59:53AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road > (Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept > Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. A really good diner, and some mighty fine trout fishing. Jesse Sheidlower OED From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 18:10:40 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: Euphemism OTY 2004: "wardrobe malfunction" In-Reply-To: <20040202161631.GA10764@panix.com> Message-ID: If anyone remembers this 11 months from now, "wardrobe malfunction" may make for a good euphemism nomination next January. -- Steve Kleinedler From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 20:12:36 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:12:36 -0500 Subject: Euphemism OTY 2004: "wardrobe malfunction" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:10 PM -0500 2/2/04, Steve Kl. wrote: >If anyone remembers this 11 months from now, "wardrobe malfunction" may >make for a good euphemism nomination next January. > >-- Steve Kleinedler Yes, that was a nice one. Myself, I think it was a promo for Peter Jackson's post-Rings epic based on the Narnia books, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe Malfunction". I hadn't realized he was planning on casting Justin and Janet as leads. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 20:40:28 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:40:28 EST Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:14:48 -0600, Gerald Cohen writes > The 1980s TV show Dukes of Hazard included a perpetually bumbling > sheriff's deputy named Rosco P. Coltrane. I've recently noticed that "rosco(e)" > was (perhaps still is) a cant term meaning "pistol, revolver." > > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > show? > There's of course also "Colt" in his last name "Coltrane." No, there is no /kolt/ in /'kol tshrein/. Roscoe the coal train runs on the Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad. Considering the obvious pastiche names in "Dukes of Hazzard" (wasn't there a "Boss Hawg"? Or am I thinking of a different show?), I seriously doubt that the show's creators went to such subtle lengths as "rosco" = pistol, although "Coltrane" conceivably could be a reference to how fast Mr. Roscoe moves. - Jim Landau From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Feb 2 20:40:53 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:40:53 -0500 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times DISCLAIMER: Since Jan. 12th I have been doing his editorial work and not allowed to do the language work in his regular secretary's absence. I therefore take no responsibility for any errors that might occur in the language column as he is "doing his own research" for the time being. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:59:44 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:59:44 -0500 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040202153547.00aedec8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward > golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk > and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? Richard Reeves, _A Ford, Not a Lincoln_ (1975), quoted Lyndon Johnson about Ford: "So dumb he can't fart and chew gum at the same time." I always thought "walk and chew gum at the same time" was a euphemism for Johnson's comment about Ford. However, a search on ProQuest brings up the following: 1970 _Wash. Post_ 24 Nov. A17 As for Mr. Nixon's assertion that much of our economic trouble is due to a cut in defense spending, one of the economists present remarked, "That's like saying we aren't smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time." Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has: 1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr. The office wit says he'll never take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't even walk and chew gum at the same time. It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably dates from before 1967. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 2 22:12:41 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:12:41 -0500 Subject: "Shit Happens" Message-ID: Westlaw is slightly earlier, with this 12/6/87 article from the St. Petersburg Times: >>The stickers that irk Banjanin are the same ones that surf shop salespeople say are most popular: "S--- Happens," a scatological sigh only recently surpassed by "How's My Driving? Call 1-800-EAT-S---" << I recall seeing the "Shit Happens" bumper stickers in Boston and Cambridge in the mid-1980s. There were other bumper stickers in the same style, the only one of which I now recall is "Take It Easy." Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, I believe these were intended to be motivational messages for those in recovery from substance abuse. Doubtless not everyone with a "Shit Happens" bumper sticker was in recovery. A 5/9/88 article from the Boston Globe provides more detail: >>MALDEN - In the Sober Camel bookstore, the unmentionables are kept behind the counter. No, not Playboy or Penthouse. Rather, bumper stickers that say, simply, "S--- happens," although the stickers spell it out. They are by far the raciest thing in inventory. They're also a big seller. For into the Sober Camel come people to whom the "S" word has indeed happened: chronic overeaters, drug and alcohol abusers and those who have been through the looking glass in other ways. The Sober Camel was opened two months ago by Kevin Doherty and Allen Gallant, recovering alcoholics and drug addicts. They started with self-help books and have expanded into greeting cards, gifts, hats, tapes and crystals, all dealing with the same issue: clean up your act. << I don't know if the proprietors of the Sober Camel designed their own bumper stickers (in which case they would have used a pre-existing catch-phrase) or obtained them from a supplier who may or may not have originated the phrase. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 6:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Shit Happens" The earliest hit on Nexis for "shit happens" is Washington Post, 8 June 1988, referring to a bumper sticker. There is some slightly earlier evidence on Google groups. Can anyone shed any other light on the early history of this expression? Jesse, what is the earliest evidence in the HDAS files? the OED files? Fred Shapiro From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Feb 2 22:17:23 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:17:23 -0800 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum Message-ID: I don't know the origin of the phrase but I know Lyndon Johnson said it of Ford when he (Ford)was a congressman. jfoster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen E. Miller" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward > golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk > and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > DISCLAIMER: Since Jan. 12th I have been doing his editorial work and not > allowed to do the language work in his regular secretary's absence. I > therefore take no responsibility for any errors that might occur in the > language column as he is "doing his own research" for the time being. > From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Feb 2 22:41:24 2004 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:41:24 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <000801c3e9da$5590c840$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com> Message-ID: Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US copyeditors, etc. However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing in the corpus. Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Feb 2 23:02:52 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: Bring It On! Message-ID: There's a journalist in Toronto who has been given the unfortunate assignment of tracking down the roots of Bush's "bring 'em on," or Kerry's "bring it on." Basically, he's trying to get to the bottom of the challenge implicit in the verb. Throw in "bring it" for good measure. I've checked the usual places, but the phrase is really too common to come to any real head, and difficult to search for in the databases. I did find some sort of collocation with "challenge" or "challenged" but not with "fight." Some success, too, with "bring it baby," "bring it man," and "bring it dude." Can anyone help this fellow? Respond to the list please, and I'll send anything on to him. Thanks, Grant From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 01:57:40 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:57:40 EST Subject: "Big Apple" still not in NY TIMES Message-ID: This is beyond ludicrous. Here's a response I received today from the NEW YORK TIMES "City" section on why there can't possibly be a story (not an error-filled summary) on "the Big Apple," even after twelve years, even on the 80th anniversary, even during Black History Month. The African-American stablehands will now go unrecognized forever. Living witnesses will NEVER be found. Hey, maybe there just wasn't room after Chuck Klosterman? I want to thank my fellow American Dialect Society members William Safire and Kathleen Miller for making this tragedy happen: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Subj: big apple Date: 2/2/2004 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time From: mimoly at nytimes.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear Mr. Popik; Your recent communication with The Times about "the Big Apple'' and John J. Fitz Gerald came to my attention and thanks for reminding us about the 1924 column. But I want to say that Mr. Fitzgerald's contribution has been mentioned in The Times from time to time. One citation was in our very own City section, in the FYI column of 3/17/96 (see below). I also noticed William Safire's column of 9/17/2000. I don't think the 80th anniversary is pressing enough for our City section to mention it again. Thanks, Mijke Molyneux, staff editor, The City The Answer People Q. Does the New York Public Library still have a telephone information service, and what is most commonly asked? A. It certainly does, breathing new life into the phrase "everything you ever wanted to know about. . . ." A staff of nine librarians and research assistants field some 550 calls a day, Monday through Friday, 9 A.M. to 6 P.M., with 1,800 reference books at their fingertips -- as well as Internet access. The researchers can spend no longer than five minutes with a caller, and neither side can call back during the research process. The service won't answer crossword puzzle or contest questions, and the researchers claim to be adept at recognizing them. Oh, and by request of the Board of Education, no homework questions. The board thinks students should learn to use the library themselves. So what do New Yorkers really want to know? A lot of them ask, "Why is New York called the Big Apple?" Of the many opinions on this issue, the one the library considers most authentic goes back to the 1920's and John J. FitzGerald, a racing writer with The Morning Telegraph who overheard stable hands in New Orleans refer to a New York racecourse as "the big apple." Mr. FitzGerald used the term so often it entered the vernacular. Other questions ebb and flow in popularity with the tide of events. The service was inundated with queries for O. J. Simpson trivia during his trial -- and Harriet Shalat, the service's supervising librarian, said her staff tackled them all. In fact, there is little that stumps them, but if the answer men and women can't handle your question, they'll send you to someone who can. To reach the Telephone Reference Service of the New York Public Library, call (212) 340-0849. The Brooklyn and Queens libraries have reference services as well: in Brooklyn, (718) 780-7700; in Queens, (718) 990-0714. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- This doesn't even begin to address what I said to the Public Editor. "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated by me, alone, in the rain, as my parents were dying, back in 1997. "Big Apple Corner" has still _never_ been reported in the TIMES, although "Joey Ramone Way" has. "Big Apple Corner" honors--badly--only NYC writer John J. Fitz Gerald. New York CIty's story is, at best, half told. The mention of "Mr. Fitzgerald's (sic) contribution" and "our City section to mention it again" entirely misses the point and importance of the February 18, 1924 column. The stablehands' words in the February 18, 1924 "Around the Big Apple" column have never appeared in the TIMES. The stablehands' words (repeated again) in the December 6, 1926 "Around the Paddock" column have also never appeared in the TIMES. The "dusky" stablehands don't even have names. THAT'S THE POINT! So nothing can be printed now--why? Because on NYC Convention and Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett's death in December 1995 the TIMES wrote that "the Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? Because that was contradicted by a brief "City" section FYI blurb in March 1996--eight years ago? No! "The Big Apple" can never be printed in the TIMES because there was a short, error-filled summary at the bottom of an exceedingly long William Safire column in 2000! Wonderful work, Kathleen Miller! What a favor you did after all these years! Why should the City section run the "Big Apple" story now? Why not wait and make sure that every possible living witness is dead? Why not wait until Gerald Cohen dies? Why not wait until I die? Then the "Big Apple" story will be WONDERFUL! In 2000, Kathleen Miller told me that Safire was writing a "Big Apple column." It wasn't "a column" at all. I said then that the February 18, 1924 column must finally be printed in full. I would not have cooperated had I known that everything would be reduced to a mere eight buried, misquoted, and never-corrected words. I would not have cooperated had I known that a misquotation of my own words in 2000 would stand forever. This--after 12 years--was the final chance to honor the stablehands and New York City's history. The NEW YORK TIMES position, as I understand it from its City editor and its Public Editor, is that corrections of the past can never be made--yet those errors are now good enough to prevent the full story. ADS-er George Thompson had his "base ball" work printed immediately, in full, on a page one Sunday story? The "Big Apple" stablehands get nothing at all, ever? Barry Popik From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Tue Feb 3 02:07:17 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:07:17 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? Message-ID: Good question, Erin! There were four papers presented at the last MLA (San Diego) under the aegis of "Language and Society" about "the native speaker" as an abstraction. Native speakers are not supposed to exist in the concrete. I totally agree, as in "The Native Speaker Is Dead!" (Toronto & New York, 1985). The book is available in libraries of most universities where linguistics is taught. You have a very hard task ahead. Best wishes. TOM. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin McKean" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Erin McKean > Subject: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > copyeditors, etc. > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > in the corpus. > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Erin McKean > editor at verbatimmag.com From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Feb 3 03:11:22 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:11:22 -0500 Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal Message-ID: On 25 Jan I sent an e-mail to 30 Special Forces veterans who had served in I Corps RVN during the 1960s, principally in the middle of the decade. I got five replies (plus 8 unknown address responses). All five recalled referring to their *montagnard* troops as "yards", and all seemed familiar with the expression, but none recalled hearing "whole nine yards" in I Corps. One person reported hearing his father (a WWII vet) using the expression with *his* buddies all his life. I wrote back, and he was emphatic that he had heard his father using it before he went to Viet Nam. I'll be happy to send Stephen Goranson copies of the correspondence. Seán Fitzpatrick The ends had better justify the means. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 3 03:24:23 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:24:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Immigrant" In-Reply-To: <200402030208.i13286Q14877@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: immigrant (OED 1792) 1789 Jedidiah Morse _The American geography_ 253 (Evans Digital Edition) Besides the Dutch and English already mentioned, there are in this state many immigrants from Scotland, Ireland, Germany, and some few from France. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 3 04:26:03 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:26:03 -0500 Subject: Bring It On! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just my casual impression, but it seems to me the usual form is "Bring him on" (of course it could be "her", "them", or even "it"). Why the form? Is the "on" like the "on" in "he does ramble on" or is it like the "on" in "on stage" or what? Maybe the "on" adds the meaning "without hesitation" or so. Like "Just go on and do it" or "Get on with it"? It doesn't have to imply a fight or opposition although it often does. ---------- 1952: <> [an opposing boxer] 1943: <<"Look at Black Moonlight! What hocks! ... Do you honestly believe ... that that caricature of yours could beat him?" / "Any day in the week ..." ... / "Then bring him on," Mr. Channing cried. "What are you waiting for?">> [an opposing race horse] 1941: <<"... Who is he? Can he do anything at all? If he can dig an honest ditch bring him on; I'm for him!" / ... / "Father! I didn't know you felt like that!">> [a prospective son-in-law] 1925: <<"I'll fight Wills; bring him on," said Dempsey.>> [an opposing boxer] 1910: <<"Widow, I'm a man with a heart. ... I can find you a second husband and warrant him true blue." / "Then bring him on," replied the widow, with a laugh.>> [a prospective bridegroom] 1884: <<"Would Sahib like to see Hindoostanee man make tricks?" / "Yes, bring him on.">> [a juggler] ---------- -- Doug Wilson From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 09:46:40 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:46:40 -0500 Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal In-Reply-To: <200402030311.i133BapG020826@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Sean Fitzpatrick, for reporting your 5 of 30 Special Forces responses. Yet the one emphatic response presents a puzzle: a pre-Vietnam phrase claim yet not heard in Vietnam? Respectfully, I doubt the phrase is pre-1960s. I would instantly change my mind should any secure pre-1960s written citation be presented; many have looked. (I think I first heard it in the mid to late 1970s in Tidewater VA.) I'm merely following the early evidence--all Vietnam related. (Including later Ft. Bragg, etc. related uses.) If anyone has an early cite besides Shepard 1967, Prof. Work (his pilot sources) 1970, Morris, SF 1972, please share it. Ought one ignore the confluence of full yards, whole yards, Montagnards, Yards, and photos of them in the 1967 book? (An early quote with 'yards [with '] spelling would be significant. Chaplain Robert L. Mole was a prolific writer, I'm learning. He went to SE Asia in July 1965. May 1966 draft on the 9 Montagnard tribes of I Corps area: It is anticipated that this material will be utilized for presentations to Units on a "need to know" basis, as commitments place them in areas where such information will have practical value. It is expected that terminology contained herein will be upgraded or revamped in accordance with the level of understanding of the hearers....The ethnic groups/tribes which are found in I Corps and discussed herein are nine in number." best, Stephen Goranson From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 10:07:46 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:07:46 -0500 Subject: ghoti Message-ID: Thanks Fred for the unsigned Christian Science Monitor citation of what a "foreigner" might think. I guess that isn't the first. I guess James Joyce didn't get it from that publication. The biography of Bernard Shaw isn't quite clear to me. Vol III, p. 501 presents GBS as worried about ridicule, regard of spelling reform as a crank subject. Yet why would the ghoti mention, as old spelling system, supposedly (though linguists today deny it, contextually), be worrying? Michael Holroyd apparently assigns it to an enthusiast. The next sentence calls James Lecky an enthusiast. So, I thought, was he the coiner? Not as far as he knows, Prof. Michael McMahon (linguist, phonetic expert, historian, and writer on Lecky) told me. The Real Professor Higgins: The Life and Career of Daniel Jones [1881-1967] by Beverley Collins and Inger Mees (1999) provides much on Shaw and Jones, but no ghoti, unless I missed it. Here, though, Jones is the expert and Shaw the linguistics rooky or enthusiast. Times of London 2 Nov 1943 p2 A Hard Spell for Fish Professor Jones on Sounds and Letters Dr. Daniel Jones...speaking on "Reform of English Spelling" astonished his audience at the college last night by suggesting the word "fish" could be spelled "ghoti"... Would Jones have used the invention of an enthusiast? Would he be quoting an earlier publication of his own? Stephen Goranson From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 3 10:32:52 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:32:52 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? Message-ID: Erin, If I were you I'd stick to your original criteria even for online publications since if you attempt to narrow it down you will only end up in a quibble over terminology or an academic shit fight which is even worse. The only caveat I have in terms online writing is that it is impossible to know whether an online writer meets these criteria but that would be true no matter what the criteria were. Plato is long dead as are platonic ideals. "American English" is an abstraction which does not and never has existed. Take it from an expert: If you attempt to restrict the criteria further you will inevitably get in trouble. Great project but just don't make more problems for yourself than are absolutely necessary. In other words ignore the idiots who make quibbling over terminology their raison d'etre and keep up the good work. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin McKean" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Erin McKean > Subject: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > copyeditors, etc. > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > in the corpus. > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Erin McKean > editor at verbatimmag.com From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 11:54:34 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:54:34 -0500 Subject: corrections; pyramidiot (1964) Message-ID: Plato dead?! Not the real Plato :-) I misspelled the name of the distinguished Glasgow Prof., Michael K. C. MacMahon. I also never heard the "nine yards" phrase from my dear Dad, a career Navy officer, USNA '40 (d. 1960). According to a review in American Anthropologist 63 (1968) 837, Barbara Mertz, Temples, Tombs, and Hieroglyphs: The Story of Egyptology (1964) used "Pyramidiots," so it looks increasingly unlikely, despite more than one report, that Zahi Hawass (in 1964 a teenager) coined the term. best, Stephen Goranson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 3 15:26:09 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:26:09 -0600 Subject: "Bubkes" in a humorous political commentary Message-ID: A foreign word appropriately used in English can sometimes convey greater force than the corresponding English term. For example,if a writer says that something is "verboten" (strengthened further by having it appear in italics) this is intended to carry more force than merely saying "forbidden." Similarly, Spanish "nada" can be used emphatically in place of "nothing." Which brings me to an Irishman's use of Yiddish "bubkes" (= "nothing) in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Sunday, Jan. 25, 2004, p. B3/2; article title: "Is This Heaven? No, It's Stupid Iowa,", by Kevin Horrigan: "...If it was me,... I'd be flipping the channels on the TV, saying, 'Darned if I'm going to watch Stephanapolous. I gave the kid his start and now he's got his own show and what do I have? Bubkes.'" "Bubkes" doesn't really exist in English, although I've heard Judge Judy use it occasionally (clear by context to everyone in the courtroom). So Horrigan chose this foreign word over "Nothing" and even the somewhat familiar "Nada." No doubt there's a humorous overlay to his using it--appropriate in a humorous political commentary. Clearly the full stylistic range of a cultured native speaker of English includes not only high-styled speech but slang and apparently also foreign elements. Gerald Cohen From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:07:05 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:07:05 -0600 Subject: "Bubkes" in a humorous political commentary In-Reply-To: <200402031534.i13FYGX32687@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > "Bubkes" doesn't really exist in English, although I've heard > Judge Judy use it occasionally (clear by context to everyone in the > courtroom). So Horrigan chose this foreign word over "Nothing" and > even the somewhat familiar "Nada." No doubt there's a humorous overlay > to his using it--appropriate in a humorous political commentary. > > Clearly the full stylistic range of a cultured native speaker of > English includes not only high-styled speech but slang and apparently > also foreign elements. Hmm. It was used on-air as long ago as the early '60s, on the Dick Van Dyke Show; Rob had written a song with that title, which (on the show) became a minor hit. (As I recall, he had to explain the meaning of the word to Laura.) Jim Parish From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Feb 3 16:24:04 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:24:04 -0500 Subject: New Books Message-ID: Just a quick note to point out two new language-related books which have come my way and deserve more attention. In August, Dick Bailey published his biography of a thieving and murdering American philologist. "Rogue Scholar: The Sinister Life & Celebrated Death of Edward H. Rulloff" (2003. U. of Michigan Press) has that winning combination of quality scholarship and great readability. It is even dramatic, particularly in the courtroom and at the gallows. Great use of primary source material, and a realistic portrayal of another century. Paul McFedries has thanked just about everyone on this list in the preface, but there are more reasons than name-checking to take a look at his book, "Word Spy: The Word Lover's Guide to Modern Culture" (2004, Broadway Books). In it, he thematically treats new words of the last decade or two, drawing them together in a way that illustrates American preoccupations and the forward-edges of its rising culture. A solid new-word book, well-researched, with many citations, explanations, and supporting commentary. Grant From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:32:50 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:32:50 -0600 Subject: "Big Apple"; Barry Popik; NY Times; William Safire's support of the American Dialect Society Message-ID: I have no doubt that Barry will ultimately be successful in bringing recognition to the two New Orleans African-American stable-hands. In Jan. 1920 their conversation mentioning "the big apple" (NYC racetracks) was overheard by John J. Fitz Gerald, who a year later introduced this term into his turf columns. Barry's best current chance for success in this endeavor is to interest New Orleans journalists/historians/civic leaders in the subject, and in fact Barry is trying this. Let's see what develops. But if that approach doesn't pan out, I have another one, albeit one with a time horizon of a few years. Step one is for me to revise my 1991 monograph _Origin of the New York City's Nickname, "The Big Apple"_, this time with Barry as co-author and including (among other new material) his very important discoveries on the topic. These have already appeared as articles in my monograph series _Studies in Slang_, but a unified treatment of the whole subject is now called for. Step two is to interest African-American historians of either NYC or New Orleans or horseracing, or all of the above, in the topic. Perhaps a prominent African-American civic leader could also be interested. After all, a frequently heard (and justified) complaint of African-American leaders is that the contributions of their people are often overlooked in the teaching of American history/culture,and here we have Barry Popik (a Caucasian) pleading to have recognition given to two African-Americans (thus far anonymous, it is true), who contributed to the origin a feature of American speech now known around the world. Step three is to approach the media with both the revised book (the media like the unified treatment of a book) and if possible the support of an African-American historian or civic leader. February (Black History Month) might be a good time to do so. With these pieces of the puzzle in place, perhaps William Safire would be interested in once more addressing the issue. Or perhaps when he goes on vacation he might be open to the suggestion that I could be one of his fill-in writers, with the topic being "The Big Apple." Or perhaps not; journalists march to their own drummer. In any case, Safire has been one of the strongest journalistic supporters of the American Dialect Society and the work of its individual members. He and his assistants (the most recent being Kathleen Miller) have my gratitude for this interest and support of our work. I am grateful too to the other journalists who have written about Barry's work on "The Big Apple": Ed Zotti (Wall Street Journal--wonderful article), Gersh Kuntzman (NY Post--several fine articles), "Dear Abby" (published a letter of mine a few years ago giving credit to Barry for his "Big Apple" work); I hope I haven't overlooked any other important item. So, all things will come in the fullness of time--probably not sooner but certainly not later. With all good wishes all around, Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology) University of Missouri-Rolla From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 3 18:55:48 2004 From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Sylvia Swift) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:55:48 -0800 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <200402022248.i12MmccY015015@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 3 19:39:07 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:39:07 -0500 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <005d01c3ea41$1dd02560$9ca0bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: Well, at the risk of being labeled one of the terminology idiots, I'll add my own expertise. After almost 25 years of teaching graduate classes composed of one-third to one-half foreign students who have learned English as a second language, I can attest to the reality of non-native English. I assume Erin is not concerned with a Chomskyan or Paikedayan (OK, Tom?) debate over "native speaker" as an idealization; she appears to be genuinely concerned about the writing ability of "real" non-native speaker/writers. This is not a matter to be ignored, since non-native "accents" do carry over into writing too--particularly in the use of articles, word order, and lexical derivations. Most of us in linguistics departments have torn our hair out many times over the writing of even seemingly sophisticated students and, dare I say it, colleagues. As to what constitutes a starting criterion for real "native speaker ability," selecting birth in the U.S. (or Britain or another "core" English-speaking country) is not always a safe assumption, though it is more likely to work than birth abroad (even to English-speaking parents). A child's parents, peer group, schooling, and the surrounding society's language uses are determinative, in various proportions. Furthermore, the age at which a non-native speaker acquires or learns English is important; most studies suggest that after the age of 7, or 10, or 14 (the age varies, but puberty is almost always the cut-off), it is virtually impossible to become native-like--in either accent, grammar, or lexicon or a combination thereof. "Near-native" is a more fluid concept, but by definition it is not "like a native." I know, Joseph Conrad wrote wonderful English, but he very probably had editorial help. So the issue really is: How much editing is Erin, or one of her assistants, willing to do (very little, I gather)? Is there a reasonable range of ability that one might insist on? Fluency in speech may not translate into writing that reflects "natural" English. Those of us in the second language teaching and learning field wrestle with these issues all the time. This ain't a "shit fight"; and for Erin, it's a matter, I assume, of including authentic American English (of any dialect) in the corpus. Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/ At 04:32 AM 2/3/2004 -0600, Page Stephens wrote: >Erin, > >If I were you I'd stick to your original criteria even for online >publications since if you attempt to narrow it down you will only end up in >a quibble over terminology or an academic shit fight which is even worse. >The only caveat I have in terms online writing is that it is impossible to >know whether an online writer meets these criteria but that would be true no >matter what the criteria were. > >Plato is long dead as are platonic ideals. "American English" is an >abstraction which does not and never has existed. Take it from an expert: If >you attempt to restrict the criteria further you will inevitably get in >trouble. > >Great project but just don't make more problems for yourself than are >absolutely necessary. > >In other words ignore the idiots who make quibbling over terminology their >raison d'etre and keep up the good work. > >Page Stephens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Erin McKean" >To: >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM >Subject: who's a native speaker? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Erin McKean > > Subject: who's a native speaker? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > > copyeditors, etc. > > > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > > in the corpus. > > > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Erin McKean > > editor at verbatimmag.com From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Feb 3 21:08:33 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:08:33 -0800 Subject: "Big Apple" still not in NY TIMES Message-ID: >>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 02/02/04 05:57PM >>> This is beyond ludicrous. Why? Here's a response I received today from the NEW YORK TIMES "City" section on why there can't possibly be a story (not an error-filled summary) on "the Big Apple," even after twelve years, even on the 80th anniversary, even during Black History Month. The African-American stablehands will now go unrecognized forever. Living witnesses will NEVER be found. Hey, maybe there just wasn't room after Chuck Klosterman? I want to thank my fellow American Dialect Society members William Safire and Kathleen Miller for making this tragedy happen: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Subj: big apple Date: 2/2/2004 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time From: mimoly at nytimes.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear Mr. Popik; Your recent communication with The Times about "the Big Apple'' and John J. Fitz Gerald came to my attention and thanks for reminding us about the 1924 column. But I want to say that Mr. Fitzgerald's contribution has been mentioned in The Times from time to time. One citation was in our very own City section, in the FYI column of 3/17/96 (see below). I also noticed William Safire's column of 9/17/2000. I don't think the 80th anniversary is pressing enough for our City section to mention it again. Thanks, Mijke Molyneux, staff editor, The City The Answer People Q. Does the New York Public Library still have a telephone information service, and what is most commonly asked? A. It certainly does, breathing new life into the phrase "everything you ever wanted to know about. . . ." A staff of nine librarians and research assistants field some 550 calls a day, Monday through Friday, 9 A.M. to 6 P.M., with 1,800 reference books at their fingertips -- as well as Internet access. The researchers can spend no longer than five minutes with a caller, and neither side can call back during the research process. The service won't answer crossword puzzle or contest questions, and the researchers claim to be adept at recognizing them. Oh, and by request of the Board of Education, no homework questions. The board thinks students should learn to use the library themselves. So what do New Yorkers really want to know? A lot of them ask, "Why is New York called the Big Apple?" Of the many opinions on this issue, the one the library considers most authentic goes back to the 1920's and John J. FitzGerald, a racing writer with The Morning Telegraph who overheard stable hands in New Orleans refer to a New York racecourse as "the big apple." Mr. FitzGerald used the term so often it entered the vernacular. Other questions ebb and flow in popularity with the tide of events. The service was inundated with queries for O. J. Simpson trivia during his trial -- and Harriet Shalat, the service's supervising librarian, said her staff tackled them all. In fact, there is little that stumps them, but if the answer men and women can't handle your question, they'll send you to someone who can. To reach the Telephone Reference Service of the New York Public Library, call (212) 340-0849. The Brooklyn and Queens libraries have reference services as well: in Brooklyn, (718) 780-7700; in Queens, (718) 990-0714. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- This doesn't even begin to address what I said to the Public Editor. "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated by me, alone, in the rain, as my parents were dying, back in 1997. "Big Apple Corner" has still _never_ been reported in the TIMES, although "Joey Ramone Way" has. "Big Apple Corner" honors--badly--only NYC writer John J. Fitz Gerald. New York CIty's story is, at best, half told. The mention of "Mr. Fitzgerald's (sic) contribution" and "our City section to mention it again" entirely misses the point and importance of the February 18, 1924 column. The stablehands' words in the February 18, 1924 "Around the Big Apple" column have never appeared in the TIMES. The stablehands' words (repeated again) in the December 6, 1926 "Around the Paddock" column have also never appeared in the TIMES. The "dusky" stablehands don't even have names. THAT'S THE POINT! So nothing can be printed now--why? Because on NYC Convention and Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett's death in December 1995 the TIMES wrote that "the Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? Because that was contradicted by a brief "City" section FYI blurb in March 1996--eight years ago? No! "The Big Apple" can never be printed in the TIMES because there was a short, error-filled summary at the bottom of an exceedingly long William Safire column in 2000! Wonderful work, Kathleen Miller! What a favor you did after all these years! Why should the City section run the "Big Apple" story now? Why not wait and make sure that every possible living witness is dead? Why not wait until Gerald Cohen dies? Why not wait until I die? Then the "Big Apple" story will be WONDERFUL! In 2000, Kathleen Miller told me that Safire was writing a "Big Apple column." It wasn't "a column" at all. I said then that the February 18, 1924 column must finally be printed in full. I would not have cooperated had I known that everything would be reduced to a mere eight buried, misquoted, and never-corrected words. I would not have cooperated had I known that a misquotation of my own words in 2000 would stand forever. This--after 12 years--was the final chance to honor the stablehands and New York City's history. The NEW YORK TIMES position, as I understand it from its City editor and its Public Editor, is that corrections of the past can never be made--yet those errors are now good enough to prevent the full story. ADS-er George Thompson had his "base ball" work printed immediately, in full, on a page one Sunday story? The "Big Apple" stablehands get nothing at all, ever? Barry Popik From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Feb 3 21:57:56 2004 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:57:56 -0500 Subject: general counsel Message-ID: Any suggestions on how to track down the first instances of use of the term "general counsel" (which is now have rank pulled upon it by "chief legal officer")? From imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK Wed Feb 4 00:06:22 2004 From: imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK (Imran Ghory) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:06:22 +0000 Subject: Biannual Message-ID: I'm sure this question must have come up before but searching the archives doesn't reveal it. Does biannual mean once every two years (as only AHD has) or twice a year (AHD,OED,MW,Websters,WordNet, CALD) ? Regards, Imran Ghory -- http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 02:22:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:22:04 EST Subject: "Enhanced Delay" Message-ID: "Enhanced delay" is here. No more boob tube? http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm CBS TO IMPLEMENT ENHANCED DELAY OF GRAMMY AWARDS Additional Measure Will Allow for Video Editing CBS announced today plans to enhance their ability to edit out any inappropriate and unexpected events from the Sunday, Feb. 8 broadcast of the "46th Annual Grammy Awards" on CBS. The enhancement will include the ability to delete both inappropriate audio and video footage from the broadcast. Using a five second delay, CBS has traditionally employed procedures that allow only for the elimination of inappropriate audio. This new enhancement will accomplish both. The precise length of the new delay has yet to be determined. The new procedure, which is being coordinated with the Recording Academy, is being put in place to safeguard against any unexpected and inappropriate content being broadcast during the awards ceremony. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 02:16:10 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:16:10 -0600 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Feb 4 02:50:52 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:50:52 -0800 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? Cheers - Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gerald Cohen Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Feb 4 02:54:12 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:54:12 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: Gerald, The word is 'new' for me, and, after reading the following postings, I'm still not sure how or when I'd use the word. Two spellings found. Searching in Google Advanced Groups, shiznick is used in a message on-- 6 FEB 1994: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22shiznick%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=CKsnww.wJ%40freenet.carleton.ca&rnum=12 26 APR 1994: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22shiznick%22&start=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=CotzC7.Hs5%40freenet.carleton.ca&rnum=38 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Schiznick is used on 10 SEP 1997: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22schiznick%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=0D77E31E7E0DF158.C9A2BFE650373D82.E5FE2F808BEBA313%40library-proxy.airnews.net&rnum=9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Several versions of schiz, which is often used in reference to schizophrenia. One note with the Subject of "schiz pics" refers to "schism stills" in the message body. http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22schiz%22&start=90&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=9epetg%242j9i%241%40newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com&rnum=94 George Cole Shippensburg University From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Feb 4 03:08:21 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:08:21 -0600 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: Shiznik is apparently a variant of 'shiznit' which is formed by infixing -izn- to 'shit'. The recent popularization is due to the influence of rapper Snoop Dogg fo' shizzle. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Vida J Morkunas Sent: Tue 2/3/2004 8:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? Cheers - Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gerald Cohen Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 4 02:59:36 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:59:36 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You'll usually find it spelled as "shiznit." It's from the same language well as foshizzle and hizzouse. The izz infix might go back to jazz, but as far as I can take it back is the 1985 album "UTFO" by UTFO which features the song "Roxanne Roxanne" which includes several lines of this speech. http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/UTFO/Roxanne-Roxanne.html I don't be in no casino, and baby while you knizzow The izzi is the grizzeat Kizzangizzo.' [...] Then crizzi to gizzone and seen number izzone Crizzin ricking tizza of mizzac mic dizza But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. On Feb 3, 2004, at 21:16, Gerald Cohen wrote: > A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang > term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might > anyone know its etymology? From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 03:15:19 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:15:19 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect the word in question is "shiznit", most definitely a hip-hop term. Googling on shiznit gives a lot of hits, including . Vida J Morkunas wrote: >I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in >The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's >telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). > >These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. > >I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is >obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? > >Cheers - Vida. >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >Gerald Cohen >Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query > >A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang >term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might >anyone know its etymology? > > Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. > >Gerald Cohen > >[message I received from a former student]: >>...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >>from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >>means something else or has just been out there all along and we >>didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >>scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >>shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >>something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >>describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >>really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >>heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 04:28:06 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:28:06 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <2A83981C-56BE-11D8-AC9A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 09:59:36PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > > But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. Or more recently still, Jay-Z. I think there was a bigger spike in -iz- talk after "H.O.V.A." than from any of Snoop's work, at least outside of serious rap fans. Jesse Sheidlower OED From vole at NETW.COM Wed Feb 4 04:29:36 2004 From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <200402032017656.SM01300@exprod6mo6.postini.com> Message-ID: What's interesting is, though I hadn't connected the two until I saw it written, these words are formed with a similar infix to what my grandparents and my dad always used to use in what they called "carnival language" (one of the many pig-latinesque "languages" English has accumulated). They said the carnies used to speak it to confuse and rip off customers. The infix was more like ee-iz, though. I'm sure something like this could have been developed twice by different groups of people, though it would be interesting to see if there is any connection. Joel Shaver On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:08 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Shiznik is apparently a variant of 'shiznit' which is formed by > infixing -izn- to 'shit'. The recent popularization is due to the > influence of rapper Snoop Dogg fo' shizzle. > ---------------------------- O Thou, far off and here, whole and broken, Who in necessity and in bounty wait, Whose truth is light and dark, mute though spoken By Thy wide grace show me thy narrow gate. --Wendell Berry To the Holy Spirit From davemarc at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 00:46:45 2004 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: Dyke, But Enough With the Talk, and Too Northeast Message-ID: This item might be of interest to some subscribers. It deals with the use of the word "dyke," the expression "But enough with the talk," and the expression "too Northeast." http://foliomag.com/ar/marketing_context_stupid/index.htm David From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 05:00:56 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:00:56 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <20040204042805.GA13292@panix.com> Message-ID: When I was in NYC in September 2002, every other subway car had giant ads for some type of breath mint that prominently featured some guy saying "Fa Shizzle" (for sure) in response to some statement -- so it made its way into mainstream advertising some time ago. My friends who teach secondary school in the suburbs used to use it all the time when imitating or talking about the kids. (and usually in the phrase "Sizzle my dizzle") It was my impression that as slang it has already started to become passe, but I'm not a slang specialist, so that's just based on my perception of listening to people who are in contact with kids all day. -- Steve Kleinedler From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 07:20:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:20:06 EST Subject: Jimmies (1949); Apologies to Kathleen Miller Message-ID: JIMMIES This is a little earlier than previously posted for "jimmies" ("sprinkles" for ice cream). (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Nashua Telegraph - 4/22/1949 ...30c I Cones with JIMMIES 10c-15c j Banana ICE CREAM i Date Nut, Maple Nut, Frozen.....hour when you retire Saturday nighr. Brick ICE CREAM in the followcitv. --TONIGHT Infant.....Tel. 5120 Pearl Emmons' Beauty Shop Lanolin CREAM Oil Permanonts "Steamed in CREAM.....35c CHILDREN'S TICKETS ON SALE AT BOX OPl'ICE ONLY ARTHUR FIEDLER Tickets from.. Nashua, New Hampshire Friday, April 22, 1949 567 k 22 April 1949, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Nashua, New Hampshire), pg. 18, col. 8: _TONIGHT at Colburn's!_ Banana Split 30c Cones with Jimmies 10s-15c Banana Ice Cream Date Nut, Maple Nut, Frozen Pudding, Popsicles and Teddy Bears. Homemade Style Candies. Colburn's, 7 Main St. Advt. Nashua Telegraph - 7/16/1949 ...Cones with JIMMIES Popsicles 5c 20 Kinds ICE CREAM 3 Kinds Sherbets Colburn's, 7 Main.....FOUNTAIN Banana Splits Fruit Drinks lOc ICE CREAM Sodas Special Sundaes 25c.. Nashua, New Hampshire Saturday, July 16, 1949 640 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- APOLOGIES TO KATHLEEN MILLER I apologize publicly to Kathleen Miller. I have learned in a private communication that the errors in WIlliam Safire's column were his alone. Safire's desire to ignore my work for eight years, then to bury it, then to insult me recently, was his alone. Kathleen Miller has also told me that she has no influence at all over the City section (that cannot possibly publish a "Big Apple" article now because of two throw-away lines published eight years ago). A lot of wrong has been done by the NEW YORK TIMES, over an incredibly long time, involving many editors, that has ruined the history of New York City forever. Kathleen Miller is not an employee of the NEW YORK TIMES and is not responsible for any of it. I have now learned her (non-) role in this 12-year-old mess, and I immediately apologize. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Feb 4 12:26:10 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:26:10 -0500 Subject: new pamphlet collection online Message-ID: Here's a link to a collection of pamphlets that is being digitized; they're all from the 1933 World's Fair in Chicago, the "Century of Progress." A drawback for lexical research is that the texts are not searchable, but they are mostly short, and contain many delightful art deco illustrations to divert the weary word searcher. http://century.lib.uchicago.edu Orin Hargraves From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Wed Feb 4 13:00:45 2004 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:00:45 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: Call for Papers: Fall meeting of ADS at MMLA (With apologies for cross-posting.) American Dialect Society at the 46th Annual Midwest Modern Language Association Convention; November 4-7, 2004; St. Louis, Missouri; Hyatt Regency. Topic: "Language Variation and Change in the United States" Papers dealing with varieties of English or other languages spoken in the United States will be considered. Presentations may be based in traditional dialectology, or in other areas of language variation and change, including sociolinguistics, historical, anthropological, folk linguistics, language and gender, critical discourse analysis, or narratology. April 15 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Send abstracts to the meeting chair, Kathryn Remlinger, Associate Professor, Department of English, Grand Valley State University, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI 49401; tel: 616-331-3122; fax: 1-616-331-3430; remlingk at gvsu.edu. Email submissions are preferred. Membership to MMLA is $35 full and associate professors, $30 assistant professors and school teachers, $20 adjunct and part-time faculty, $15 students, retired, and unemployed. Write MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 319-335-0331. For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website, www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers", scroll down to "Associated Organizations", then to "American Dialect Society." Many thanks, Kathryn Remlinger Midwest Regional Secretary, ADS Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Grand Valley State University Allendale, MI 49401 remlingk at gvsu.edu 1-616-331-3122 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:35:52 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:35:52 -0600 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty Message-ID: Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? Gerald Cohen From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Feb 4 16:03:54 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:03:54 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 09:35 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). >But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, >fantastic"? >What am I missing here? > >Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 4 16:11:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040204105932.00b39b08@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. Absolutely. Note also the euphemisms "the nuts" and "the berries". (^_^) Also "He thinks he's hot shit", "He thinks he's King Shit", etc., meaning "He thinks well of himself". -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 16:16:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:16:51 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040204105932.00b39b08@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times cf. also "That's da bomb!", which has also been around awhile. In fact, my undergraduates sometimes include "the shit" in their New Words List, and gloss it as "the bomb" or "da bomb", which suggests that the former may be regionally restricted. larry >At 09:35 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). >>But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, >>fantastic"? >>What am I missing here? >> >>Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 18:17:01 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:17:01 -0600 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty Message-ID: I think I can answer the question that I asked this morning. >... But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, >cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? The answer is that the term for excrement was applied to drugs (See John Bassett McCleary's _Hippie Dictionary_, Berkeley: Ten Speed Press, 2002), and the presence or arrival of drugs is what must have originally been regarded as great/cool/fantastic. Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 18:31:56 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:31:56 -0600 Subject: Query: "da bomb" (was Re: Rap slang shiznet...) Message-ID: In "That's da bomb!" (something great/cool/fantastic) is the immediate reference to an explosive device or to the long pass in football? Gerald Cohen At 11:16 AM -0500 2/4/04, Laurence Horn wrote: >>When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >>frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >>important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. >> >>Kathleen E. Miller >>Research Assistant to William Safire >>The New York Times > >cf. also "That's da bomb!", which has also been around awhile. In >fact, my undergraduates sometimes include "the shit" in their New >Words List, and gloss it as "the bomb" or "da bomb", which suggests >that the former may be regionally restricted. > >larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 4 18:57:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:57:30 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <20040204042805.GA13292@panix.com> Message-ID: >> But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. > > Or more recently still, Jay-Z. I think there was a bigger > spike in -iz- talk after "H.O.V.A." than from any of Snoop's > work, at least outside of serious rap fans. You are probably right, but Snoop's album "The Last Meal" did go platinum. It has a follow-up to his 1993 song, "Who Am I (What's My Name)?" on the album "Doggystyle," called "Snoop Dogg (What's My Name, Pt. 2)", featuring a "fo' schizzle" though without "my nizzle." S-N-double-O-P D-O-double-gi-zee D-O-double-gi-zee, D-O-double-gi-zee! [...] Izzle kizzle, fo' schizzle My nizzle, what you sizzle? Fo' schizzle bizzle, ha ha The 1994 song only has a little bit of the izzness: "Nine-trizzay's the yizzear..." (I am relying on lyrics transcribed by fan pages for these quotes, though from several sources, which, while similar enough to confirm the lyrics, are different enough to hope that the lyrics weren't just copied from site to site.) Grant From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 19:55:21 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:55:21 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0600 2/4/04, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I think I can answer the question that I asked this morning. > >>... But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, >>cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? > > The answer is that the term for excrement was applied to drugs (See >John Bassett McCleary's _Hippie Dictionary_, Berkeley: Ten Speed >Press, 2002), >and the presence or arrival of drugs is what must have originally >been regarded as great/cool/fantastic. > >Gerald Cohen I'm not sure this derivation is obvious. For one thing, the drug-related sense is a mass noun ("That's some great shit") and isn't necessarily positive, while "the shit" in the use we're discussing is intrinsically positive, is a count noun, and requires the article, as Kathleen Miller noted. Plus the latter is regionally or generationally restricted--I was unfamiliar with it until recently--while "shit" for 'drugs' has been widespread for ages (too bad there's no S volume for the HDAS) and represents, as far as I can tell, a context-induced narrowing of the more general mass noun "shit" for 'stuff' (as in "have one's shit together", "have a lot of shit [= possessions]", "pack up one's shit", etc.). Larry From lvonschn at WISC.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:24:48 2004 From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:24:48 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. Thanks. Luanne From lvonschn at WISC.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:28:49 2004 From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:28:49 -0600 Subject: all up in my kitchen Message-ID: Another query I received: I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? Thanks. Luanne Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English University of Wisconsin-Madison 600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall Madison WI 53706 http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Feb 4 21:35:10 2004 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:35:10 -0500 Subject: general counsel, take 2 Message-ID: Apologies for my semi-illiterate posting yesterday. I am writing an article touching on the history of the in-house legal department and am curious to know of any early citations for the title "general counsel." I know that lawyers in these jobs were at one time (mid-20th c.) referred to as "kept women" because they were (1) on company payrolls, and (2) their skills were not generally admired among corporate lawyers in law firms. I suspect that the word "general" in the job title indicates that these lawyers were generalists, weighing in on labor and employment issues, real estate matters, contracts, litigation, &tc. At large businesses with multiple subsidiaries, the GC title now sometimes does not denote the top legal job. The new title for top legal dog is "chief legal officer." In any case, any insight or advice very much appreciated. Catherine Aman Staff editor Corporate Counsel magazine. From ahartley at D.UMN.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:41:16 2004 From: ahartley at D.UMN.EDU (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:41:16 -0600 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <200402042129.i14LRWfp002663@mail.d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I *have* occasionally heard fireplug in other geographical contexts, but in Duluth, it's fire hydrant. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > Subject: fireplug > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? Alan Hartley From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 22:15:34 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:15:34 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20fireplug?= Message-ID: My memory is that we used them interchangeably in Iowa in the 1940s and 1950s. I've never thought about why there are two words in my head for the same thing, though introspection tells me that FIRE HYDRANT is the technically correct term and FIREPLUG is a more informal term. But, again, I have no idea why! In a message dated 2/4/04 4:30:09 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional?  If so, where?  A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her).  We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:25:11 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:25:11 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Luanne, Yep, fireplug is common in southern Ohio, according to my best on-the-spot informant (our custodian). She's given me a couple more items for you to check; I'll put them in context: We swapped howdies (said hi to each other); I'll be there if I don't end over (die); and He didn't have good fetchins up (he wasn't brought up right). I asked if the last term could be used as a verb, as in You've been fetched up good, and she said no, not in her hearing. Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside the South/South Midland? Also, is the distinction between parcel/passel and mess common? As in: We picked a mess of beans (enough for supper) vs. We picked a passel of beans (enough for several meals). BTW, she pronounced 'passel' with [a], not [AE aesh]--simply r-less 'parcel', in other words. Sorry, Luanne, I'm intruding on your turf! Beverly At 03:24 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > >Thanks. > >Luanne From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:34:32 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:34:32 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <15b.2cfb603e.2d52c906@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >My memory is that we used them interchangeably in Iowa in the 1940s and >1950s. I've never thought about why there are two words in my head >for the same >thing, though introspection tells me that FIRE HYDRANT is the >technically correct >term and FIREPLUG is a more informal term. But, again, I have no idea why! > >In a message dated 2/4/04 4:30:09 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes: > > >> Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >> woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >> didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. I'm also familiar with both terms. FIRE HYDRANT is, indeed, the more usual term, for me, for the curbside dog magnet. However, it now occurs to me that FIREPLUG can be used metaphorically in ways that FIRE HYDRANT can't, in particular for a short but tenacious hockey player (in the Steve Sullivan/Theo Fleury/Brian Gionta mold). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 4 23:15:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:15:47 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I grew up in Detroit. To me "fireplug" and "[fire] hydrant" are interchangeable (except for metaphorical use). -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 00:01:23 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:01:23 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20fireplug?= Message-ID: In a message dated 2/4/04 5:35:54 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > miliar with both terms. FIRE HYDRANT is, indeed, the more > usual term, for me, for the curbside dog magnet. However, it now > occurs to me that FIREPLUG can be used metaphorically in ways that > FIRE HYDRANT can't, in particular for a short but tenacious hockey > player (in the Steve Sullivan/Theo Fleury/Brian Gionta mold). > Good point. I would not mind the nickname "Fireplug," but it strikes me that being called "Fire Hydrant" would be something of an insult (because of the semiotic role of fire hydrants with respect to dog urination). From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Feb 5 00:12:29 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:12:29 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I grew up saying fireplug, but I can't say for sure whether I picked it up from the local speech of Oklahoma City or So. California, or from my parents, who hailed from Iowa and Oklahoma/Texas respectively. I'm pretty sure it was in my speech before we moved to Oregon in the early 50s. I THINK I remember my grandmother (born in Illinois but grew up in Oklahoma) saying fireplug, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing my grandfather (who was from East Texas and talked like it) say fire hydrant, and finding it vaguely exotic, like another of his words, terrapin. At some point I must have made a gradual transition to hydrant, because I hadn't thought of plug for a long time until your message reminded me. There: all sorts of reliable data that I'm sure you can use.:) Peter --On Wednesday, February 4, 2004 3:24 PM -0600 Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Feb 5 00:22:19 2004 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:22:19 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. I know both usages and I certainly wouldn't laugh at someone who used "fireplug," but here in the San Francisco Bay area, a fire hydrant is a fire hydrant and a fireplug is more likely used to describe someone like Mary Lou Retton. Checked the San Jose Mercury News archives to see whether I was giving bum advice and found exactly ONE article in the archives using the word "fireplug" -- Skip Bayless last November describing "fireplug rookie Anthony Adams" in an article about a 49ers/Packers game. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Feb 5 01:33:57 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:33:57 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside the South/South Midland? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 02:01:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:01:11 EST Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune Message-ID: FIREPLUG What a city. They don't plow the streets in the Bronx, then they go out and issue $115 parking tickets for "traffic lane" and "double parking" and "angle parking" to every car in sight. I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LA TIMES & CHICAGO TRIBUNE May-June for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE (and only part of it) is later than I'd like it. What can you do? Subj: RE: Chicago Tribune & Los Angeles Times Date: 2/4/2004 5:42:33 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Christopher.Cowan at il.proquest.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Hello, Barry, (feel free to call me, Chris) The LATimes is now completed through 1953 and about 60% of 1954-1956. We're ahead of schedule with digitizing this archive. The Tribune has about 30 years completed; however, we are not releasing it yet and won't until the May-June timeframe. Chris Cowan Vice President, Publishing ProQuest Information & Learning 300 N. Zeeb Road Ann Arbor, MI 48106-1346 From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Feb 5 01:59:26 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:59:26 -0600 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <20040204212942.DFD7E4C11@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. A quick and dirty google on some state names and either fireplug or fire hydrant shows fireplug as being used -- but much less than fire hydrant -- in Ohio, New York State, California and Minnesota. Could it be regional within Ohio? Or more used in the kind of community this woman is from? -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 5 03:35:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:35:50 -0800 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <18c.255041e5.2d52fde7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > FIREPLUG > > ... I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." interesting. i'm significantly older than barry, but not so far in geographical origins from him. and when i was a kid (long long ago, in southeastern pennsylvania), "fireplug" was to "fire hydrant" as "car" was to "automobile" (and only "fireplug" had metaphorical extensions, to body type or penis shape, for instance). now, i think, the originally more technical-register term has pretty well covered the territory, except of course for those conventionalized metaphorical uses. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Feb 5 03:41:45 2004 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:41:45 -0500 Subject: Fireplug Message-ID: Barry has very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." Must be a generational thing. My parents, both born in Brooklyn, 1909 and 1910, used the term all the time. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 5 04:02:27 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:02:27 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin Message-ID: A question from the Straight Dope. Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. Thanks, Sam Clements From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Feb 5 04:08:04 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:08:04 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin In-Reply-To: <000a01c3eb9c$de98b080$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 11:02:27PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > A question from the Straight Dope. > > Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to > one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It > seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. No. Early 1960s is the earliest known, though I haven't re-checked newspaperarchive.com to see if it has much better. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Feb 5 05:16:08 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:16:08 -0600 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: From the India edition of Google News. The Age is an Australian paper. Nipplegate delays Oscar telecast The Age - 2 hours ago A flap over the exposure of Janet Jackson's breast hit the Oscars today when ABC television announced it would delay the live broadcast of this year's ceremony to avoid similar antics. Oscars may bleep or edit out stars behaving badly The Star Time delay sought to combat 'bad conduct' at Oscars Independent Reuters - Entertainment Weekly (subscription) - Guardian - Defy Magazine - and 14 related http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/05/1075853982528.html -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 06:35:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 01:35:14 EST Subject: Sparty; Chocolat(e)y (1915) Message-ID: SPARTY On the local news tonight was a puff piece about a "sparty"--a "spa party." The reporter mentioned the word "sparty" often, like it's a hip new word you just have to know.. Michigan State University's Spartans also turn up here...Unfortunately, there's not a neat neologism for "Super Bowl Party." SPARTY--64, 600 Google hits SPARTY MICHIGAN STATE--4,570 Google hits SPARTY PARTY--12,500 Google hits SPARTY SPA PARTY--92 Google hits SPARTY SWING PARTY--341 Google hits (GOOGLE) http://www.bizbash.com/find_resource/resourcepage.asp?resource_id=780901 Overview Sparty is an event planning division of Lexi Design Spa Consulting that creates on-location spa parties. The parties mix massage treatments with customized catering, music and gift bags. --C.G. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SPARTY OR SPARTIES (MOBILE SPA PARTIES) Goods and Services IC 044. US 100 101. G & S: SPArties or SPArty Mobile Day Spa Parties; Full service day spa services in an individual, group, or party setting; Spa services are brought on-site to a home, office or location of choice; Includes all services in a full service day-spa. FIRST USE: 20020306. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020401 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 020302 020326 180304 260113 260121 Serial Number 78328517 Filing Date November 15, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Rotella Janet Marie INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 1266 South Military Trail #561 Deerfield Beach FLORIDA 33442 Description of Mark The mark consists of Black and with reverse. It is a balck bathtub on wheels with the word Sparty or SPArties - the "SPA" are always in uppercase letters and reversed in color. It will say Mobile Spa Parties or Mobile Day Spa. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- FIRE PLUG "Fire Hydrant" is one of the most common offenses. It's also an easy ticket to write. You can't be within 15 feet of the thing. There are usually no painted lines, or the lines aren't drawn to scale. You can find an offense at every fire hydrant. But I can't even remember the last time I heard "fire plug." I could probably count the "fire plug" uses on my fingers. That's what I mean by "rare." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHOCOLAT(E)Y I've been looking around for Valentine's Day food (chocolate) terms. OED ("miserable on food") has "chocolat(e)y" from the January 1965 ECONOMIST! Merriam-Webster has 1926. Did Runkel's Cocoa coin "chocolaty"? There are many hits for the slogan, with the earliest being 1915 (below). Why is there no similar word for "vanilla" or "strawberry"? (ANCESTRY.COM) 1 October 1915, TRENTON EVENING TIMES (Trenton, NJ), pg. 2, col. 3 ad: "You know, this cocoa _does_ taste better--It's so much smoother. It's Runkel's, you say? Well, you just keep on buying it for ME--I certainly like that 'chocolaty' taste." And you know, Hubby's RIGHT. You can tell the difference at the first taste. It's a smooth, satisfying, "chocolaty" flavor that just hits the spot. Try it--today--just go to your grocer's and Say _Runkel's_ _the COCOA with that "Chocolaty" Taste_ 22 November 1926, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg. 3?, col. 4: Yum! Such a wonderful chocolatey smell rose out of the cake! (GOOGLE) http://www.collectimaniac.com/p20-802-runkel-cocoa-with-choclaty-taste-90s.htm l TC, Runkel's Famous Cocoa, 1880-90s - ... tc, runkel's famous cocoa, 1880-90s [bidders note: please enclose the "correct identification item " on all emails/?S and/or on payments to antique images.] - Antique images online item description antique (vintage) trade card / tradecard, litho, ex, 1880's-90's, "with that chocolaty taste" grading scale used; filler / good (g)/ very good (vg)/ very good (vg )/excellent (ex)/ near mint(nm) fault terms used; wof : writing on front, wob : writing on back, cw : corner wear, cb : corners bumped bidder information regular item processing fees ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT/MISC. TIME WARNER CENTER--The $1.7 billion Time Warner Center has opened at Columbus Circle in New York City. With its top-end restaurants and gourmet food stores, it will perhaps be the world's greatest food destination. I'll visit it soon. From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Feb 5 11:52:23 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:52:23 -0500 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <6497FBD7-578C-11D8-9FD3-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Ditto, I haven't called one of this things a fireplug for years, but remember it from my Louisville-area youth (with the stylistic distinction arnold points out). Since then, I have used it to refer only to some especially squat linebackers and fullbacks (but somehow missed the penile sense). dInIs >On Feb 4, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>FIREPLUG >> >>... I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." > >interesting. i'm significantly older than barry, but not so far in >geographical origins from him. and when i was a kid (long long ago, in >southeastern pennsylvania), "fireplug" was to "fire hydrant" as "car" >was to "automobile" (and only "fireplug" had metaphorical extensions, >to body type or penis shape, for instance). now, i think, the >originally more technical-register term has pretty well covered the >territory, except of course for those conventionalized metaphorical >uses. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 5 13:00:09 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 05:00:09 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <200402050015.i150FxwR001833@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I definitely remember hearing and calling them "fireplugs" in Oregon in the 1950s too. I checked with a friend who is also a native who remembers calling them fireplugs or fire hydrants interchangeably, fire hydrants being the more "official" name. Mostly now I just hear "hydrant". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" > Subject: Re: fireplug > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I grew up saying fireplug, but I can't say for sure whether I picked it up > from the local speech of Oklahoma City or So. California, or from my > parents, who hailed from Iowa and Oklahoma/Texas respectively. I'm pretty > sure it was in my speech before we moved to Oregon in the early 50s. I > THINK I remember my grandmother (born in Illinois but grew up in Oklahoma) > saying fireplug, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing my grandfather > (who was from East Texas and talked like it) say fire hydrant, and finding > it vaguely exotic, like another of his words, terrapin. > > At some point I must have made a gradual transition to hydrant, because I > hadn't thought of plug for a long time until your message reminded me. > > There: all sorts of reliable data that I'm sure you can use.:) > > Peter > > --On Wednesday, February 4, 2004 3:24 PM -0600 Luanne von Schneidemesser > wrote: > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 13:32:06 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:32:06 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Dear Luanne, I lived my first four years in the Chicago suburbs. It is there that I probably heard the first references to this community institution. My recollection is that _fireplug_ preceded _fire hydrant_ in my lexicon. >From age four onward I have lived in the Hudson Valley within commuting distance of NYC. I suspect that is where I picked up _fire hydrant_. My sons (12 and 13) I think use fire hydrant. I will take a little survey of the middle school usage for you. American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser >Subject: fireplug >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > >Thanks. > >Luanne > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 14:08:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:08:10 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin In-Reply-To: <20040205040804.GA27405@panix.com> Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0500 2/4/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 11:02:27PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >> A question from the Straight Dope. >> >> Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to >> one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It >> seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. > >No. Early 1960s is the earliest known, though I haven't re-checked >newspaperarchive.com to see if it has much better. > So the incident in the Canterbury Tales doesn't count? I've heard it described as mooning, although the label itself is admittedly anachronistic. L From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Feb 5 14:29:40 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:29:40 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: <4021D198.7040207@visi.com> Message-ID: Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate In the blogging world, "tittygate" has some proponents. http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=tittygate "Boobygate" has a few as well: http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=boobygate Grant On Feb 5, 2004, at 00:16, Dan Goodman wrote: > From the India edition of Google News. The Age is an Australian > paper. > > Nipplegate delays Oscar telecast > The Age - 2 hours ago > A flap over the exposure of Janet Jackson's breast hit the Oscars today > when ABC television announced it would delay the live broadcast of this > year's ceremony to avoid similar antics. > Oscars may bleep or edit out stars behaving badly The Star > Time delay sought to combat 'bad conduct' at Oscars Independent > Reuters - Entertainment Weekly (subscription) - Guardian - Defy > Magazine > - and 14 related > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/05/1075853982528.html From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 14:32:36 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:32:36 -0800 Subject: all up in my kitchen In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204152555.027e0100@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Is there a connection with baseball? Some of the baseball afficianados on the list probably know better than I do, but I've heard "up in the kitchen" to describe a high, inside fastball. Ed --- Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Another query I received: > > "all up in my > kitchen," meaning "prying into my personal matters > ?" It appears also to > contain an element of "provoking me." My sister > reports having heard this > in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web > diaries/blogs, but I've never > encountered it myself. > > > > I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > > Thanks. > > Luanne > > Luanne von Schneidemesser > Dictionary of American Regional English > University of Wisconsin-Madison > 600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall > Madison WI 53706 > http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 14:36:32 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:36:32 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <402166FC.3000307@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and now live in Northern NJ. I use both, but not sure which one is "native." I remember having an issue becuase there is a fire hydrant outside my house. I was giving directions to my house to a NJ native and she looked at me funny when I mentioned it. I can't remember if I said "plug" or "hydrant." Ed --- Alan Hartley wrote: > I *have* occasionally heard fireplug in other > geographical contexts, but > in Duluth, it's fire hydrant. > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > > Subject: fireplug > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is > regional? > > Alan Hartley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Feb 5 14:32:09 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:32:09 -0500 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: <072601c3eb8a$b371cde0$a25f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Beverly Flanigan" > >Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >the South/South Midland? From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 15:05:29 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:05:29 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Dear Luanne (again), While I'm waiting for some response in the school library, I searched Google for fireplug ~ fire plug ~ fire hydrant. The results were 4170 for fireplug, 11,000+ for fire plug, and 93000+ for fire hydrant. I'll check Nexis at Vassar College library. I just asked the Spanish teacher here. She is a native speaker of Spanish, but grew up in NYC. She recalls calling it in English _the pump_ or _fire hydrant_. Regards, Dave American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: Re: fireplug >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dear Luanne, > >I lived my first four years in the Chicago suburbs. It is there that I >probably heard the first references to this community institution. My >recollection is that _fireplug_ preceded _fire hydrant_ in my lexicon. >>From age four onward I have lived in the Hudson Valley within commuting >distance of NYC. I suspect that is where I picked up _fire hydrant_. My >sons (12 and 13) I think use fire hydrant. I will >take a little survey of the middle school usage for you. > >American Dialect Society writes: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser >>Subject: fireplug >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >>woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). >We >>didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. >> >>Thanks. >> >>Luanne >> > From RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM Thu Feb 5 15:05:42 2004 From: RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM (Richard A. Spears) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:05:42 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. _Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. _Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking fountain. _Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. _Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire hydrant_. I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by teachers and grandparents. R. Spears ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von Schneidemesser" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: fireplug > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > Subject: fireplug > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne > From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Feb 5 15:46:55 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:46:55 -0600 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040205092641.00ac7008@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A variation of this that I have heard from Indiana relatives is Johns, meaning John and his family (as in Johns aren't coming to the reunion, since they have to be at the State Fair). This is in Frankfort, IN, north of Indianapolis. Barbara >I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But >maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is >present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but >maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. > >At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >>doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >>it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >>southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Beverly Flanigan" >> >>Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >>pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >>the South/South Midland? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 15:59:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is the country coming to? L >In the blogging world, "tittygate" has some proponents. > >http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=tittygate > >"Boobygate" has a few as well: > >http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=boobygate > >Grant > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Feb 5 16:03:06 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:03:06 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Nipplegate >Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is the country coming to? L From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Feb 5 16:22:13 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:22:13 -0800 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: Pastiegate? Baker, John wrote: > Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 10:59 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Nipplegate > > > > >>Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >>http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate >> >> > >But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the >actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is >the country coming to? > >L > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 16:19:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:19:10 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, >see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. > >John Baker I stand corrected. (I was aware of the upper of the two versions of JJ at this site, but didn't have the technology to expose the lower one.) Justin time, too--"Nippleshieldgate" doesn't quite do it. I was thinking of proposing "Hootergate" on phonological grounds. L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Feb 5 17:37:51 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:37:51 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? ~~~~~~~~~ The terms were interchangeable in Lincoln NE in the 30s & 40s as nearly as I can remember. Sidelight: My husband knew both expressions from childhood, but not so much from local usage, since Jackson WY, where he grew up, had no such amenities, but from the funny papers! A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 17:37:08 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:37:08 EST Subject: Stink Lines (April 1982) Message-ID: I found "stink lines" while looking for "shit." It happens. http://www.wordspy.com/words/stinklines.asp Earliest Citation: They love anything smelly and three-dimensional. Why, you can practically see the stink lines coming off it. Look, I could stand here till I'm pink in the face trying to explain the joys of a good old-fashioned pile of stenchy things, but it wouldn't make any more sense to you than your toys make to me. —Kerry P. Talbott, "The light before Christmas," Richmond Times Dispatch, December 24, 1995 Added to the database on January 23, 2004 April 1982, NATIONAL LAMPOON, pg. 86: FAMOUS COMIC ARTISTS SCHOOL by BRUCE COCHRAN Panel One: LESSON #217 SHIT PRACTICE BY DRAWING FIGURE ONE UNTIL YOU CAN DRAW SHIT AT THE DROP OF A HAT. THEN, WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "YOU CAN'T DRAW SHIT!," YOU CAN SHOW THEM HOW WRONGTHEY ARE. Panel Two: ("FIG. 1" is "shit"--ed.) (This text is in a pointer--ed.) NOTE: DO NOT CONFUSE STINK LINES WITH HEAT WAVES! From RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM Thu Feb 5 18:10:49 2004 From: RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM (Richard A. Spears) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:10:49 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I wanted to add that a hydrant was more generic than a fireplug. There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, rising out of the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns with a water outlet on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel fire hydrants were not called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into the wall of a building was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were used to pump water into the building's sprinkler system. R. Spears ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Spears" ; "Richard A. Spears" To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Re: fireplug > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Richard A. Spears" > Subject: Re: fireplug > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. > > _Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. > _Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking > fountain. > _Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. > _Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire > hydrant_. > > I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by > teachers > and grandparents. > > R. Spears > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von > Schneidemesser" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM > Subject: fireplug > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > Subject: fireplug > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 19:42:27 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:42:27 -0500 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <18c.255041e5.2d52fde7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > May-June for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE (and only part of it) is later than I'd > like it. What can you do? I hate to be the messenger of bad news, but I think it may in fact be even later than that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 20:45:20 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:45:20 -0500 Subject: fireplug in the Hudson Valley Message-ID: My survey poster went up in the middle school library about half-way through the morning. Of the couple dozen returns the vast majority or for _fire hydrant_ "always". I'll post final numbers next week. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 5 22:56:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:56:49 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <001001c3ebf9$8647eab0$baeefea9@NewDell> Message-ID: My southern Ohio informant (again) says fireplug is so well known that many people, including her insurance man, just ask "You got a plug nearby?" But when a contractor asked her "How many plugs you want on your house?" she was puzzled. He meant the outside things she calls spickets (vs. faucets inside); she had never heard plugs used for these outside hose attachments. One more: For her, a tap is a public water source, like a pipe with a knob that might be found in a park or a cemetery (not a drinking fountain or 'bubbler'). At 09:05 AM 2/5/2004 -0600, you wrote: >I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. > >_Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. >_Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking >fountain. >_Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. >_Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire >hydrant_. > >I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by >teachers >and grandparents. > >R. Spears > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von >Schneidemesser" >To: ; >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM >Subject: fireplug > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > Subject: fireplug > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 5 22:48:08 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:48:08 -0500 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My southern Ohio informant said she wouldn't use the proper name alone in this way, but "John and them" could be a "collective" term (her word), meaning, as I thought, an implied reference to the original or complete family even if only one person lives there at present. Possessive would be "John and them's (place)." Beverly At 09:46 AM 2/5/2004 -0600, you wrote: >A variation of this that I have heard from Indiana relatives is >Johns, meaning John and his family (as in Johns aren't coming to the >reunion, since they have to be at the State Fair). This is in >Frankfort, IN, north of Indianapolis. > >Barbara > >>I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But >>maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is >>present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but >>maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. >> >>At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>>I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >>>doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >>>it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >>>southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >>>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >>>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Beverly Flanigan" >>> >>>Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >>>pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >>>the South/South Midland? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Feb 6 02:45:44 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:45:44 -0600 Subject: "shiznit"--epilogue: Message-ID: Slang isn't just a casual way of expressing something; it's often also "owned" by the group using it--as if others have no business using or even inquiring about it. The recent very helpful ads-l replies on "shiznit" led to the following response from the mother of the two teenagers who had asked me about it: "...Thank you for all the work on this word. My family has enjoyed the responses. The younger ones (14&16) that use the word more often think all of the investigation has taken something away from the enjoyment of using the word. ..." Gerald Cohen From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Feb 6 04:41:02 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:41:02 -0500 Subject: Val-girl "like" Message-ID: The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" linguistic novelty. The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article on the generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some efforts to curb that use. My own efforts are described at http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf. Seán Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana; Chuck Yeager flies, like, airplanes. From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Feb 6 05:20:56 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:20:56 -0500 Subject: Fire plug Message-ID: When I was growing up in the Washington, D.C. area (1946-1964), fireplug was standard. My mother (b. 1920), who lived in D.C. all her life, says fire plug. We also said "fire hydrant" or just "hydrant". My mother-in-law (b. 1931) has lived in the Philadelphia area all her life [both parents ware born in England]. I think she is more inclined to say "fire hydrant", though "fire plug" would not seem strange here. It doesn't come up in conversation a lot. Seán Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA (just outside Philly) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 06:46:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:46:26 EST Subject: Colorado Digitization; Mouster Message-ID: COLORADO DIGITIZATION Some newspapers have started the site. Keep adding to ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS! If Olive is going to do the BROOKLYN EAGLE and Missouri's Newspapers and Colorado's Newspapers, how about making things easy for me and combining it all for one simple search? The recent NPR interview (below) is of interest. http://www.cpr.org/co_matters/ Thursday, Jan. 22 Historic Newspaper Digitization Brenda Bailey-Hainer, project manager for the Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection, talks about a project to bring the state’s oldest newspapers to the Internet as part of a federally funded digitization program. http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOUSTER It appears that the NEW YORK POST invented or popularized this. It applies only to Disney, so it has limited use. It's "mouse" plus "ouster." From the NEW YORK POST, 5 February 2004, pg. 38, cols 1-3 headline: _Disney heir zings Eisner,_ _pushes for his mouster_ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 14:26:44 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:26:44 EST Subject: fireplug Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:10:49 -0600, "Richard A. Spears" explicates: > There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, rising out of > the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns with a > water outlet > on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel fire > hydrants were not > called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into the > wall of a building > was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were used to > pump water > into the building's sprinkler system. The "connection built into the wall of a building" is called a "Siamese", presumably because there are two hose connections joined to a single pipe. I don't know if Political Correctness has hit this piece of hardware, but I can't imagine a fire chief telling his men, er people, "hook up to the conjoined twins!" It may be relevant to note that, following the great Baltimore fire of 1904, water pipe connections for firefighting were standardized throughout the United States. Other cities had sent some forty fire engines to Baltimore's aid and none of them had connections of the right size to connect to Baltimore's water system. Is it possible that as part of the standardization effort, terms like "hydrant" and "Siamese" were given cast-in-concrete official definitions. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 14:57:53 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:57:53 EST Subject: general counsel, take 2 Message-ID: In a message dated Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Catherine Aman writes > I am writing an article > touching on the history of the in-house legal department and am curious to > know of any early citations for the title "general counsel." I know that > lawyers in these jobs were at one time (mid-20th c.) referred to as "kept > women" because they were (1) on company payrolls, and (2) their skills were > not generally admired among corporate lawyers in law firms. I suspect that > the word "general" in the job title indicates that these lawyers were > generalists, weighing in on labor and employment issues, real estate > matters, contracts, litigation, &tc I suspect that "general counsel" comes from the same origin as "general manager", who is the manager in charge of ALL operations in a given company, or site, or whatever, with all other "managers" at that location having more specialized duties. cf a professional baseball team, which has one "general manager" who hires and trades and subordinate to him a singular "manager" who directs the team on the field. Hence a general counsel handles, or supervises, all the legal work of the firm, with, as workload demands, other counsels or just plain lawyers handling individual cases. Compare "Attorney-General", or the simiolar Postmaster-General, or that military term "Sergeant-Major General". Objection: in corporate law there is such a thing as a "general partner" in which "general" does not mean "high-level universal scope" but rather specifies the partner's exposure to liability. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ a note on terminology: a professional baseball team takes orders on the fileld from a "manager" who is assisted by "coaches" (although "coach" has the second meaning of "anybody who is assigned to the first- and third-base coaching boxes"---THE manager has the option of choosing himself to be A coach.). In basketball, however, the person directing the team is "the coach" and "the manager" is the person in charge of supplying clean towels. - Jim Landau From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Feb 6 15:10:16 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:10:16 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I never heard "fireplug" where I grew up (north of Boston). I haven't heard it in western MA, either, but can't recall any specific instance of a local person referring to the thing. My gut feeling is that it's probably "fire hydrant" out here, though, too. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Feb 6 15:47:35 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:47:35 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Now for some real data. Our citation files have something like 20 instances of the "fire hydrant" sense of "fire plug," all pre-1973 and the overwhelming majority of which come from technical sources having to do with firefighting or civil engineering. A couple come from fictional sources -- one James T. Farrell's Young Lonigan (1932) and the other Willard Robertson's South from Yesterday (1943). For good measure I checked our electronic database, which consists of the full text of citations collected from 1980 on, and found 5 out of 22 hits for "fire plug" or "fireplug" in the "fire hydrant" sense. (In most cases the word was used of people, usually meaning "solidly built" or "physically or psychologically strong") Of the five that did bear the literal meaning, one came from a Donald Hall essay in the Utne Reader; one from a 1985 novel called The Enchanted Isle by James M. Cain (but presumably not the the same James M. Cain who wrote The Postman Always Rings Twice, who died in 1977); one from a Playboy interview with Steve Martin; one from a 1993 Newsweek article; and one from a Naval Institute Press publication. Interestingly, we have no "fireplug" cites from any local newspapers or from any of such non- local papers as we read (the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The Christian Science Monitor, and such like). I hope this is of some use to you, Luanne. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 6 16:50:42 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:50:42 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <000801c3ec13$62c865a0$baeefea9@NewDell> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Richard A. Spears wrote: > I wanted to add that a hydrant was more generic than a fireplug. > There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, > rising out > of > the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns > with a > water outlet > on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel > fire > hydrants were not > called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into > the > wall of a building > was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were > used to > pump water > into the building's sprinkler system. just so. some buildings up the street from me in palo alto have such connections, labeled HYDRANT. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Feb 6 17:40:39 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:40:39 -0800 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: This might be all in my own head, but fwiw: there are the vertical things that stick up out of the sidewalk, & then there are the smaller things (sort of two-headed things) that stick out of walls or buildings. My earliest awareness was only of fire hydrants (the larger, vertical sidewalk ones). When I heard fireplug I thought it was those things in the walls. Really not sure why. Like I said, I could have just made this up. I wouldn't call the wall ones fire hydrants, but fireplug for the tall street ones is acceptable. I don't know if I've ever said fireplug myself, probably not. Born, bred & buttered in the SF Bay Area, Indigo -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 6 17:56:19 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:56:19 -0500 Subject: Val-girl "like" In-Reply-To: <003d01c3ec6c$92389270$6400a8c0@FITZT1840> Message-ID: Sean, I got a virus notice when I tried to open your attachment, so be careful! But anyway, why would you want to curb the use of filler "like"? You might want to teach some register control (OK informally, not formally), but that's about all you'll be able to do. It's everywhere, and numerous research articles are available on its use. At 11:41 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: >The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" >linguistic novelty. The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article >on the generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some >efforts to curb that use. My own efforts are described at >http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf. > >Seán Fitzpatrick >Upper Darby, PA >Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana; Chuck Yeager flies, >like, airplanes. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 6 17:49:09 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:09 -0500 Subject: all up in my kitchen In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204152555.027e0100@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Luanne, I got a response on "all up in my kitchen" and variants thereof from a former student who lives in the Cleveland-Erie area. I'll paste it in: My niece, who lives & works in a suburb of Cleveland, reports that two co-workers, native Clevelanders, have heard the phrase. One said it's used by blacks. The other said he hadn't heard it in a long time, & the last time it was by a cook, race/ethnicity unspecified. It definitely does mean "you are in my business," but seems to have given/be giving way to a large assortment of other expressions which mean the same thing. The two she gave as examples are, "They're all up in your/my conversation," and "Do you want to know what I had for breakfast, too?" If you'd like me to find out more details on this report, just lemme know. I'll pass on whatever else I hear. Beverly At 03:28 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Another query I received: > >kitchen," meaning "prying into my personal matters ?" It appears also to >contain an element of "provoking me." My sister reports having heard this >in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web diaries/blogs, but I've never >encountered it myself. > > > >I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > >Thanks. > >Luanne > >Luanne von Schneidemesser >Dictionary of American Regional English >University of Wisconsin-Madison >600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall >Madison WI 53706 >http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Feb 6 18:15:34 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (thomaspaikeday) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:15:34 -0600 Subject: new word Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Re: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Well, at the risk of being labeled one of the terminology idiots, I'll add > my own expertise. After almost 25 years of teaching graduate classes > composed of one-third to one-half foreign students who have learned English > as a second language, I can attest to the reality of non-native English. I > assume Erin is not concerned with a Chomskyan or Paikedayan (OK, Tom?) NO PROBLEM. BACK TO THE FUTURE, WHEN SOMEONE WOULD BE HUNTING FOR THE FIRST RECORDED USE OF "PAIKEDAYAN" I HOPE I'LL BE REMEMBERED AS THE ONE WHO MADE THE DISCOVERY (LIKE WHO DISCOVERED AMERICA) WHICH MAY BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHO USED THE BLESSED WORD FIRST. THANKS BEVERLY. TOM. > From debaron at UIUC.EDU Fri Feb 6 20:16:38 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:16:38 -0600 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: Hey, all, I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. Dennis Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 6 20:46:43 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:46:43 -0500 Subject: call waiting and away message In-Reply-To: <5E7098E4-58E1-11D8-BBF9-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Dennis Baron wrote: > I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the > oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away > (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. Here's the earliest I readily find on Nexis: The Washington Times July 12, 2001, Thursday, Final Edition SECTION: PART C; METROPOLITAN; LIFE/SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY; Pg. C1 HEADLINE: Teens get the message BYLINE: Katie Dunn; THE WASHINGTON TIMES BODY: Many of Ms. Casey's friends leave their IMs on all day, even when they are not there, and leave "away messages." Away messages are like voice-mail messages for phones. If friends send an IM to Ms. Casey while she has an away message up, her friends will see it and be able to type a reply. Some people constantly update their away messages with notices such as, "In the shower or "Studying." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 6 21:01:36 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:01:36 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: >From the Brooklyn Eagle, through the Brooklyn Public Library: The members of the Good Intent Hose Company were surprised yesterday morning, while washing their apparatus, at the debut of a large eel, which was ejected from the fire plug near their hose house, in Fourth below Chesnut street. *** (copied from a Philadelphia paper) Brooklyn Eagle, July 13, 1842, p. 2 I have some notes from NYC papers of the early 1830s referring to fire hydrants as a novelty. Nothing in these notes indicates what they looked like. I didn't find "fire plug" in my notes through the late 1840s. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From panis at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 6 21:04:03 2004 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:04:03 -0800 Subject: call waiting and away message In-Reply-To: <200402062046.i16Kkj3B014287@mtac1.prodigy.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Dennis Baron wrote: > >> I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message."... and Fred Shapiro wrote: >Here's the earliest I readily find on Nexis: > > >The Washington Times >July 12, 2001, Thursday, Final Edition The first example I find in Usenet via Google Groups is from May 19, 1988: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22away+message%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1987&as_maxd=6&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1989&selm=8805191529.AA26163%40inria.inria.fr&rnum=2 a.k.a. http://tinyurl.com/3e8n4 It should be obvious that "I am away" messages should not be sent more than once to the same recipient. However, Jacob's suggestion does have a practical interest. Suppose the person which is luckily cruising the Carribeans for 2 monthes is a member of several distribution lists: all members of all these lists, often the same persons, will receive the "I am away" notification.. By sending (once) the " away message " or other auto answers as specially typed messages (e.g. user level acknowledgments), one gives the opportunity to the lists to adopt a special treatment, e.g. dropping them rather than broadcasting. (end quote) The next I find (with this particular sense) is from June 12, 1991 in a group devoted to discussion of Internet Relay Chat (IRC): http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22away+message%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1990&as_maxd=6&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1992&selm=5815%40uniol.UUCP&rnum=12 or: http://tinyurl.com/2h5o4 At this point of net-degeneration I'd prefer to give the /wall command (which only generates one netwide broadcast, just as much as a /nick change or an / away message ) to the public: everyone can /wall, and everyone /ignores all /walls except those who enjoy sending and receiving them. (end quote) The former quote suggests an e-mail auto-response, and the latter an auto-response in real-time on-line conversation. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Feb 6 21:04:16 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:04:16 -0500 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: Usenet is a little earlier for "away message." From a 5/19/88 post on Google Groups: "It should be obvious that "I am away" messages should not be sent more than once to the same recipient. However, Jacob's suggestion does have a practical interest. Suppose the person which is luckily cruising the Carribeans for 2 monthes is a member of several distribution lists: all members of all these lists, often the same persons, will receive the "I am away" notification.. By sending (once) the "away message" or other auto answers as specially typed messages (e.g. user level acknowledgments), one gives the opportunity to the lists to adopt a special treatment, e.g. dropping them rather than broadcasting." As is implicit in this quote, away message is a contraction of "I am away" message or "while I'm away" message. John Baker From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Feb 6 23:07:48 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:07:48 -0600 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: The 2002 Shorter Oxford cites "away game, goal, match, win" as examples, but the definition is too narrow (referring to "play" and "opponent"); same problem with the M-W (2002) def. There seems no doubt the earliest uses would have been in the game context, but contemporary usage as seen in "away team" (def. "away from home" in my UWD, 2000) and "away message" should, IMO, be defined more broadly and outside the play context. T.M.P. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: call waiting and away message > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: call waiting and away message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Hey, all, > > I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the > oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away > (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. > > Dennis > > > Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 > Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 > Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 > University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > debaron at uiuc.edu From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Sat Feb 7 00:12:48 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:12:48 -0500 Subject: Media Request: Long Island Accent? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: [This was received via the ADS web site. Please respond directly to the querent if you can help her.] My name is Caren Chesler, and I'm a freelance reporter writing a story for the New York Times on the origins of the "Long Island accent." In searching the internet under the headings of linguist, and accent and dialect, your organization came up. I'd like to talk to you about the Long Island accent and where it may have come from. Please write back if you're interested. Or, if you know of anyone who is knowledgeable about this issue, please write back and let me know. Thanks, Caren Chesler scaby63 at aol.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 7 01:46:21 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:46:21 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: To add something to what Joanne said, I just checked newspaperarchive for "fireplug" between 1900 and 1905. There were nine different articles in six different newspapers. All the articles were talking about local fireplugs. Nothing too technical. There were many more hits for "fire hydrant" during the same period, in the same newspapers. I can't give you the ratio as the search engine seems to be upset right now. Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 7 03:49:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:49:26 -0500 Subject: antedating of camel jockey(1961) Message-ID: HDAS has 1965(a student interview) Using newspaperarchive, 11 June 1961 _Reno(NV) Evening Gazette. 4/6 [A Column by Robert C. Ruark] <> The writer also used the term "camel driver" later. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Feb 7 05:31:07 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 00:31:07 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20FHB?= Message-ID: FHB = Frat House Boys, a gay male pornography distributor. In a message dated 1/12/04 12:13:45 PM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: > Mencken has "FHB" in American Language, 4e, p. 209, in a footnote > citing "Semi-Secret Abbreviations," by Percy W. Long, _Dialect Notes_, > Vol. IV, Pt. II, 1915, and Vol. IV, Pt. V, 1916. > > Grant > > > On Jan 12, 2004, at 11:00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > MIK  More In Kitchen > > > > FHB  Family Hold Back > > > >    Any cites? > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 07:03:07 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 02:03:07 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" Message-ID: I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including "nautch house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a "cf." directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". This etymology does not seem right to me. "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of "nautch" rather than the other way around. Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from Hindi (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th century, often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' dance styles. I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 7 12:05:57 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:05:57 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207014231.02ef4eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Not to mention those who have prostituted the English language by conflating the vowels in question. dInIs I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including "nautch house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a "cf." directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". This etymology does not seem right to me. "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of "nautch" rather than the other way around. Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from Hindi (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th century, often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' dance styles. I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 12:16:33 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:16:33 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207014231.02ef4eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My limited resources at home concur with your analysis of "nautch" as an mildly Anglicized version of the Hindi word for "a dance." Of course, one of my sources is the dreaded Hippocrene Standard English-Hindi Dictionary, which includes this typo in the front matter: "As Q, in 'Quran,' the sacred boo of Islam." That's what I get for six dollars. Nautch is also well-attested to in Hobson-Jobson as "a kind of ballet-dance performed by women," among other things. Nautch-girl is also there. H-J "nautch" entry: http://tinyurl.com/yv479 H-J "nautch-girl" entry: http://tinyurl.com/38thr Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass it on to Jon Lighter. Cheers, Grant Barrett project editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang On Feb 7, 2004, at 02:03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including > "nautch > house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a > "cf." > directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" > originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". > > This etymology does not seem right to me. > > "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common > standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong > evidence to > the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of > "nautch" > rather than the other way around. > > Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from > Hindi > (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it > appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th > century, > often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' > dance > styles. > > I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch > dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". > > Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the > "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. > > -- Doug Wilson > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 13:52:24 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:52:24 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <77BBB0CA-5967-11D8-B837-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: >Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or >conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass >it on to Jon Lighter. Conflation and coincidence are possibilities, but they seem a priori unlikely here for three reasons: (1) Occam's razor; (2) "notch" = "vagina" being _unattested_ in the US (per HDAS); (3) rarity or absence [AFAIK] of analogous parallel derivations such as *"pussy girl", *"cunny house". -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 14:31:14 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:31:14 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207083719.02ef9230@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 08:52, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or >> conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass >> it on to Jon Lighter. > > Conflation and coincidence are possibilities, but they seem a priori > unlikely here for three reasons: (1) Occam's razor; (2) "notch" = > "vagina" > being _unattested_ in the US (per HDAS); (3) rarity or absence [AFAIK] > of > analogous parallel derivations such as *"pussy girl", *"cunny house". All good points, and noted. Grant From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:08:32 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:08:32 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: At the risk of unscientifically promoting the very effort I am reporting about, I wonder how many subscribers are aware of the campaign to promote the use of the word "santorum" to refer to "the frothy mix of lubricant and fecal matter that is sometimes a byproduct of anal sex." The definition was a kind of developed through a contest organized by sex-advice columnist Dan Savage. It was a kind of linguistic payback to Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum who made some frothy anti-gay comments while the US Supreme Court was considering the constitutionality of sodomy laws last year. The contest involved soliciting possible appropriate definitions for the senator's name, and "frothy mix " was the winner. It was followed by on-going deliberate efforts to promote the use of the word in the media and its inclusion in dictionaries. There is a website http://www.spreadingsantorum.com now devoted to the effort. Is this kind of lexicological campaign unprecedented? There are obvious differences between this effort and the campaign against Charles Boycott or the way that Capt. Lynch got his name into the lexicon. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 19:28:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's funny you should ask that. Not an hour ago, I sent a message to Dan Savage, inquiring as to whether he had seen any evidence of the word spreading "in the wild," without specific references to his campaign, to his column, or without having to self-consciously define the term. In his column he has printed letters recounting anecdotes "proving" the success of the word, but it's not clear that those mentioned did not get the word from the same two sources. They all read as if the word is being discussed as a novelty or curiosity. The in-group using this word, in my opinion, isn't people who might have a use for it, but people who merely desire to spread it. The super-shedder here is Savage's column, and, by extension, the campaign. In the database and Internet searches I have done--and admittedly, it is time-consuming and difficult to search for, given all the material related to the Senator himself--I have found exactly no uses of the new "santorum" which are not self-conscious and/or included merely to propagate the word. So I, too, would be interested in any solid evidence that this word has a life beyond the campaign. Grant On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:08, Michael Newman wrote: > At the risk of unscientifically promoting the > very effort I am reporting about, I wonder how > many subscribers are aware of the campaign to > promote the use of the word "santorum" to refer > > Is this kind of lexicological campaign > unprecedented? There are obvious differences > between this effort and the campaign against > Charles Boycott or the way that Capt. Lynch got > his name into the lexicon. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 20:06:18 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:06:18 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any > "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in > the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The > specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign > make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. Grant From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:50:15 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:50:15 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It's funny you should ask that. Not an hour ago, I sent a message to >Dan Savage, inquiring as to whether he had seen any evidence of the >word spreading "in the wild," without specific references to his >campaign, to his column, or without having to self-consciously define >the term. > >In his column he has printed letters recounting anecdotes "proving" the >success of the word, but it's not clear that those mentioned did not >get the word from the same two sources. They all read as if the word is >being discussed as a novelty or curiosity. > >The in-group using this word, in my opinion, isn't people who might >have a use for it, but people who merely desire to spread it. The >super-shedder here is Savage's column, and, by extension, the campaign. > >In the database and Internet searches I have done--and admittedly, it >is time-consuming and difficult to search for, given all the material >related to the Senator himself--I have found exactly no uses of the new >"santorum" which are not self-conscious and/or included merely to >propagate the word. > >So I, too, would be interested in any solid evidence that this word has >a life beyond the campaign. > >Grant I agree. However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:50:55 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:50:55 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: Apparently, the meaning of 'Santorum' has been in question for a while, dating to when the good Senator came into office. Bob Kerry, according to the following discussion, attempted to define the Latin meaning of Santorum. No cite is provided for Bob Kerry's alleged comment. http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair05012003.html (1 May 2003) A more interesting question, and one that would be difficult to answer, is the usage history of: "(word/phrase), that's Latin (or French, or German, or whatever) for (negative word/phrase)". Dave Barry uses the approach in his humor columns. George Cole Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:52:27 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: Correct, the spelling in my just sent note should read: Bob Kerrey. George Cole Shippensburg University From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 20:12:24 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:12:24 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: <177A566A-59A9-11D8-831A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: I should clarify: there are plenty of uses of "santorum" on such sites, but as far as I can see, only as keyword filler used to draw more search engine hits. Which may only mean that people know about the santorum campaign, since there are no other senator's surnames so listed. G On Feb 7, 2004, at 15:06, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > >> However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >> "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >> the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >> specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >> make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > > For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and > pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including > newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot > of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of > it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > > Grant > From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 20:28:11 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:28:11 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: <177A566A-59A9-11D8-831A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: >On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > >>However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >>"in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >>the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >>specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >>make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > >For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and >pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including >newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot >of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of >it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > >Grant That's not surprising. While there are fecaphiles??, there aren't many. The vast majority of erotica writers would leave santorum out of their stories, even kinky ones. Kinda ruin the mood, don't you think? Still, I'm sure that at some point it'll appear, presumably in some particularly graphic dom-sub scene. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Feb 7 22:11:26 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The use of "santorum" as a meta-term in web sites may have nothing to do with this specific campaign. It may just be a dig at his conservative, family-values politics. The name "Exon" was similarly used on porn sites when that senator led the fight for the Communications Decency Act. The absence of other senators' names may simply be due to the fact that they are not unique. "Hatch," for example could refer to many people, not just the senator. Not so with "Santorum." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Grant Barrett > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: santorum > > > I should clarify: there are plenty of uses of "santorum" on such sites, > but as far as I can see, only as keyword filler used to draw more > search engine hits. Which may only mean that people know about the > santorum campaign, since there are no other senator's surnames so > listed. > > G > > On Feb 7, 2004, at 15:06, Grant Barrett wrote: > > > On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > > > >> However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any > >> "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in > >> the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The > >> specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign > >> make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > > > > For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and > > pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including > > newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot > > of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of > > it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > > > > Grant > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 23:32:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:32:46 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology Message-ID: HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: "1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of homosexuality)." from ca. 1942-5 AND "2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." from 1953. Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: "1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence is lacking]" I doubt this derivation of sense 1 from sense 2. I speculate (without any decisive evidence) that "asshole buddy" began -- during WW II or earlier -- as a casual humorous military alteration of "foxhole buddy" meaning the man who shares one's foxhole. This would give sense 1 first. No doubt double-entendre was obvious from the start or very soon, and I think sense 2 likely was attached to the already existing phrase. Was sense 2 ever common, outside of jokes based on sense 1? "Foxhole buddy" is still used to mean "Army/Marine buddy from the war", I believe. Tending to support the derivation from "foxhole buddy" is the rarity of alternatives such as "asshole friend" or "asshole pal" or "asshole comrade". It's virtually always "buddy" ... because, I think, it originated with the establishment and maintenance of foxholes by the "buddy system" (not the *"friend system" or whatever). Around 1960-70, I often heard "asshole buddy" = "very close friend", and it had (as HDAS says) no homosexual implication, even when it could naturally have had (e.g., "He got his promotion because he's the boss's asshole buddy", which had in my experience a very different meaning from something like "... because he's the boss's lover/etc."). In my experience (not necessarily representative) "asshole buddy" (sense 1) is usually or almost always spoken with second-word stress, in keeping with "asshole" acting as an adjective = "good": thus "my close BUDDY", "my bosom BUDDY", "my asshole BUDDY" (also "my fat BUDDY", "my old BUDDY", etc.). I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the same stress? Modifiers which denote the context of a friendship will, I think, usually have (first-word) stress: "my FISHING buddy", "my POKER buddy", "my ARMY buddy". And probably "my FOXHOLE buddy" (can anyone confirm or refute this one?). Is there "ASSHOLE buddy" on a similar basis in conventional speech? In sense 1, or 2, or maybe in both? Maybe some of the list scholars can repair my ignorance? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 8 00:54:53 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:54:53 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: >> >>>However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >>>"in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >>>the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >>>specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >>>make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. >> >>For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and >>pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including >>newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot >>of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of >>it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. >> >>Grant > >That's not surprising. While there are fecaphiles?? I believe "coprophiles" would be the standard moniker, but I'm no prescriptivist. >, there aren't >many. The vast majority of erotica writers would leave santorum out >of their stories, even kinky ones. Kinda ruin the mood, don't you >think? Still, I'm sure that at some point it'll appear, presumably in >some particularly graphic dom-sub scene. >-- >Michael Newman >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders >Queens College/CUNY >Flushing, NY 11367 >tel: 718-997-2871 >fax: 718-997-2873 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 01:11:01 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:11:01 -0500 Subject: Glatt Kosher (1970) Message-ID: http://dictionary.oed.com/readers/appeal.html glatt kosher: antedate 1973 Oh, all right. I gotta do everything. Five straight days of parking tickets. Cold. Rain. The New York Times screws me again. The Chicago Tribune won't be ready. Shoulda killed myself. "Glatt Kosher" was in the first place I looked. Perhaps I'll look other places (JEWISH WEEK) for slightly earlier. This book cited Jeremiah J. Berman's SHEHITAH (1941), but "glatt" is not in that book. THE BOOK OF KASHRUTH: A TREASURY OF KOSHER FACTS AND FRAUDS by Seymour E. Freedman New York: Bloch Publishing 1970 Pg. xv: Kashruth Dictionary 1. AYVER MIN HA-CHAY 2. BODEK Pg. xvi: 3. CHALAF 4. CHAYLEV 5. CHOMETZ 6. DAHM 7. FLAYSHIG 8. HADACHA Pg. xvii: 9. HALACHA 10. KASHRUTH 11. KOSHER 12. KOSHER L'PESSACH Pg. xviii: 13. MASHGIACH 14. MILCHIG 15. MITZVAH 16. M'LEECHA 17. N'VAYLA 18. PAREVE 19. PLUMBA 20. RAV HAMACHSHIR Pg. xix: 21. SHABBOS 22. SHECHITA 23. SHOCHET 24. TAHOR 25. TOMAY 26. TORAH 27. TRAYFE 28. TSAAR BALAY CHAYIM Pg. xx: 29. TRAYBERING 30. T'UDAH 31. VAAD HAKASHRUTH 32. YAYIN NESSECH 33. YOM TOV Pg. 120: (Chapter 5--ed.) _Glatt Kosher Meat--_ _Jewish Milk_ In recent years a new title--"_glatt Kosher_ meat"--has become popular among both the observant and non-observant Jews. Many have used the terminology without quite fully understanding its meaning. To some, the words "_glatt_ Kosher" have implications of a whole new set of commandments related to the Dietary Laws. This is not so. _Glatt_ Kosher is not a new law of Kashruth. The great stress upon the observant housewife to purchase only _glatt_ Kosher meats arose in recent years in the Chasidic community, particularly with the _Satmer Rebbi_, and from that vantage point spread to other Chasidic and non-Chasidic Orthodox Jews. Pg. 125: The recent popularity of _glatt_ Kosher meat is another incident of Chasidic independence from Misnagdic practice. There are many Jews who are confused by this sudden emphasis on _glatt_ Kosher meat and consider it as if it were a whole new set of dietary requirements. The fact of the matter is that the concept of _glatt_ Kosher meat is not a new phenomenon. It is discussed in the Talmud. Clarification ofthe _glatt_ principle is as follows: The word _glatt_ means "smooth." As is generally known, the cow eats a good portion of its daily food requirement in the field. Often the grass which it eats is mixed with foreign objects that have a tendency to puncture the lungs as they pass down the esophagus of the cow into the upper stomach. A punctured lung raises the question of Kashruth because if the puncture is such that it does not heal, then the animal is _trayfe_. The Talmud states that if the punctures of the lung are covered over with scabs, however, then the animal may be accepted as Kosher. Pg. 126: After an animal is slaughtered by the _shochet_, it is opened, and the _shochet_ places his hand inside the animal and feels the lungs. If he finds that scabs have formed on the lungs, he will have the lungs removed and examined or blown up so that he can test them and see if the punctures have been covered by scabs or not. If the scabs have healed the punctures of the lung, the animal is declared Kosher; if not it is declared _trayfe_. The Chasidic Satmer Rabbi and his followers recently began insisting upon _glatt_ Kosher meat, that is meat which comes from an animal whose lungs were smooth (_glatt_) and without scabs of any kind. Such choosing of _glatt_ Kosher meat only is commendable as a superpious requisite since non-_glatt_ meat is also Kosher if the scabs have sufficiently haled the punctures. However, the unfortunate aspect of this new phenomenon in Kashruth is that it has been carried to an extreme by many Orthodox Jews, who naively have come to accept only _glatt_ Kosher meat as really Kosher, and all other meats as questionable. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 02:13:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:13:28 -0500 Subject: "Apple Pie and Cheese" Message-ID: "Apple pie and ice cream" is "pie a la mode." But "apple pie and cheese" seems to be just that, and has slipped through the radar. Is it an old New England dish? While in Ghana (!), one dessert we had was apple pie with ice cream, and one of the oldsters mentioned apple pie and cheese. It's also "apple pie and cheddar." April 1915, SPY (International Apple Shippers' Association), Vol. V, No. 3, pg. 10: _Apple Pie and Cheese_ By Eugene Field (...) O tempora! O mores! What profanations these That seek to dim the glories Of apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 11: I'm glad I've got three willing boys To hang around and tease Their mother for the filling joys Of apple-pie and cheese. (...) No flippant, sugared notion Shall my appetite appease, Or bate my soul'd devotion To apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 12: And these feelings are so grateful, Says I, "Julia, if you please, I'll take another plateful Of that applie-pie and cheese!" (...) No matter what conditions Dyspeptic come to feaze, Pg. 13: The best of all physicians Is apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 14: But I, when I undress me Each night, upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me With apple-pie and cheese! (GOOGLE)(33 hits for "apple pie and cheddar) Apple pie and cheddar - [ Translate this page ] Apple pie et cheddar (USA). Préparation : 2 h mn, Cuisson : mn, Réfrigération : h, Calories : Pour 6 personnes Ingrédients : 12 Pommes 250 g sucre brun 1 cuil. ... perso.wanadoo.fr/cuisinez/_private/ tartes/tarte_apple_pie.htm - 9k - Cached - Similar pages An Apple a Day Keeps the Doctor Away - www.ezboard.com ... Apple a Day Keeps the Doctor Away Dond ... you forgot the Yankee tradition of apple pie and cheddar! I just made my first apple pie ... pub97.ezboard.com/ fcookingwithsaramoultonfrm1.showMessage?topicID=857.topic - 22k - Cached - Similar pages Spirited symphony ... They're more like apple pie and cheddar cheese - two great tasting things that can taste great together, but only if you're partial to cheese and apples all ... www.canoe.ca/JamConcertsR2Z/spiritofwest_102699.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Nation's Restaurant News: Wheel of fortune: Cheese makes rounds on ... ... Also in New York, Jennifer Handler, chef-owner at Clove restaurant, is playing on another classic combination, apple pie and cheddar cheese. ... www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3190/ 9_36/83520547/p1/article.jhtml - 13k - Cached - Similar pages The Big E - The Avenue of States ... you looking sharp in all seasons, breathe in the fragrances of candles and coffee beans or tempt your tastebuds with fresh apple pie and cheddar cheese - two ... www.thebige.com/detpages/bige10147.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages iChef.com Free Recipes - Cooking.Com ... Aged Gouda with Apple Galette Apple pie and Cheddar cheese have a long association. Here''sa twist on that theme - a rustic apple ... www.ichef.com/.../100000/task/categorysearch/recipecategoryid/ 202/filterid/recipecategoryid/letter/All - 101k - Cached - Similar pages Boston.com / A&E / Dining/Food RECIPES & ARCHIVES. Pears, blue cheese, and hazelnuts on puff pastry. Apple pie and Cheddar make a classic pair, so why not pears and blue cheese on puff pastry? ... www.boston.com/dining/recipes/p/pears_blue_cheese.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS)(26 hits for "apple pie and cheddar") Re: Apple pie and Cheddar Michael McCollum wrote in message ... Up north, "Yankee" means "someone who puts cheddar cheese on his apple pie". Oh dear... does ... rec.org.sca - Jun 8, 2001 by Michael McCollum - View Thread (5 articles) Re: Apple Pie & Cheddar - Strange? ... I have an old Cornish lady next door and she has given me some lovely old Cornish recipes, but never apple pie and cheddar! Regards Eve rec.food.baking - Oct 23, 1999 by EandG - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Cheese and apples My Mom, who grew up in Tupper Lake and Buffalo, NY, fixed us Apple pie and Cheddar Cheese. Yum. So I think it is a custom widespread in upstate NY. ... rec.food.historic - Jun 19, 1997 by Gwyneth Crowley - View Thread (8 articles) Re: Heids and coneys ... How about apple pie and cheddar cheese? Not exclusive, but it is both apple and cheddar cheese country and they do serve it that way. ... ne.food - Jul 24, 1997 by Barry Shein - View Thread (7 articles) Re: OT West Wing ... BLEEEEARGH! A-1 on ice cream? Not even close. Obviously someone who has never tried apple pie and cheddar...but it has to be REALLY REALLY SHARP cheddar. ... alt.tv.law-and-order - Oct 30, 2001 by mk4u - View Thread (114 articles) Re: [I] Yorkshire Origins? was .. (Clueless Merkins) ... Anyway, the apple pie and cheddar combination is a generic New England tradition, not just my family. Possibly a lot of Yorkshiremen settled here. ... alt.fan.pratchett - Dec 15, 1998 by Richard Eney - View Thread (13 articles) (GOOGLE)(205 hits for "apple pie and cheese," mostly Eugene Field's poem) Log Cabin Chronicles Greg Duncan's Blue Ribbon Apple Pie column ... But I, when I undress me Each night, upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me With apple-pie and cheese." Eugene Field, Apple-Pie and Cheese. ... www.tomifobia.com/duncan/apple_pie.shtml - 7k - Cached - Similar pages Index - Pie Recipe Archives ... But I, when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese." - Eugene Field, "Apple Pie and Cheese". ... labellecuisine.com/ Archives/index__pie_recipe_archives.htm - 54k - Cached - Similar pages Colonial Times Apple-Cranberry Pie with Cornmeal Crust ... But I, when I undress me, Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese." - Eugene Field, "Apple Pie and Cheese". ... labellecuisine.com/Archives/pie/ colonial_times_apple.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages Let Them Eat Cheese ... Charles de Gaulle (1890-1970) "But when I undress me/ Each night upon my knees/ Will ask the Lord to bless me/ With apple pie and cheese!" – Apple Pie and ... www.dairymax.com/CheeseForDessert.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages Fruit From Washington - Cheese and Fruit Recipes ... But when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me with apple pie and cheese!” - Eugene Field, Apple Pie and Cheese. ... www.fruitfromwashington.com/Recipes/cheeses.htm - 36k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) (95 hits for "apple pie and cheese") Re: Apple pie and cheese (was Re: The term ) ... Alban I'm well aware that many contemporary people like the combination of apple pie and cheese. My lord husband is one of them. ... rec.org.sca - Jun 5, 2001 by Robin Carroll-Mann - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Good Apple Pie, was: Apple Pie and Cheese Charles Quinn wrote: I used to read cookbooks even as a 10-year-old and thought this was "icky" (read about it in Betty Crocker etc). ... la.eats - Oct 27, 1998 by xstitchcrazy - View Thread (1 article) Re: What a Friend We Have In Cheeses Yes, and my apologies to Eugene Fields, that fourth line should read "With apple pie and cheese." I must proof my work, for it usually makes no sense. ... rec.food.cooking - Sep 16, 1995 by Anne Bourget - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Looked for this one for a long time ... pie! "Twin Peaks" 1990 But I, when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese. ... alt.quotations - Nov 19, 2002 by Grace McGarvie - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Apple Pie and Cheese I've never had any cheese _but_ cheddar on pie before (though I suppose Jack might be good, I'll have to try it sometime). Back ... la.eats - Oct 30, 1998 by Lothie - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Baked Apple Slices That's something many of us should already know. Apple pie and cheese are old friends in my house. My Betty Crocker Cookbook says ... rec.food.cooking - Oct 14, 1999 by Nancy C Welker - View Thread (2 articles) (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) 1. "THE BIG BOULDER." Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). New York: Oct 13, 1892. Vol. VOL. XXXIX., Iss. No. 15; p. 310 (2 pages): Pg. 310: Sweet corned beef, mealy potatoes and a squash, and apple pie and cheese were most grateful to the appetite, sharpened by my tramp in the cool air. 2. CAROLS OF COOKERY; APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. THE PUMPKIN PYE. WHEN THE CO'N-PONE'S HOT. Arthur Penn. The Bookman; a Review of Books and Life (1895-1933). New York: Jan 1902. Vol. 14, Iss. 5; p. 474 (5 pages) 3. SOME SPRINGTIME VERSE The Bookman; a Review of Books and Life (1895-1933). New York: Jun 1909. Vol. 29, Iss. 4; p. 365 (2 pages) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Mike Irwin Backs Down. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 27, 1891. p. 7 (1 page): Three distinguished citizens were sitting in Pete Steil's yesterday afternoon eating apple pie and cheese. WHY PRINCETON DID NOT ASK BILLY SUNDAY.; A Statement in Defense of the Inhospitable Attitude of the University Authorities Toward That Evangelist. By ANDREW F. WEST, Dean of the Graduate School of Princeton University.ANDREW F. WEST.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 8, 1915. p. 12 (1 page): Mary was one of those sort of uneeda biscuit, peanut butter, gelatin and pimento sort of women. Martha was a beefsteak, baked potato, apple sauce with lemon and nutmeg, coffee and whipped cream, apple pie and cheese sort of women. Like Apple Pie and Cheese Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 3, 1958. p. 21 (1 page) (MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL) Osgood's Predicament, by E. D. B. Stoddard: pp. 52-61 p. 54 1 match of 'apple pie and cheese' in: Title: Harper's new monthly magazine. / Volume 27, Issue 157 Publisher: Harper & Bros. Publication Date: June, 1863 It consisted of stewed beans, boiled beef, apple-pie, and cheese. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 02:21:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:21:30 -0500 Subject: Apple Pie and Cheese (1873) Message-ID: I forgot to check www.newspaperarchive.com Decatur Republican - 2/18/1886 ...Dlpfo, liavpo, depot, or Courier. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The Good Use Little Jake Made.....it AND threw out behind him some APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The ground was comparatively.....t suppose we shall have a thing but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE If he gets it." But she was.....was much that was good to eat but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. If he had been left to.. Decatur, Illinois Thursday, February 18, 1886 1007 k Indiana Weekly Messenger - 4/21/1886 ...t suppose we shall 'have a thing but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE if he gets it. But she was.....township, or county. perton, wltb this book, can lecome a succeasfutAatnt. For lull.....it AND threw out jehind him some APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The ground was comparatively.....was ninch that was good to eat but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. H he had been left to himself.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 21, 1886 875 k Daily Advocate - 12/30/1892 ...se Or bate my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. AND CHEESE No alien i', sir.....disease MATHERS, ___ JlathervUle, Miss. Our book oa Blood AND Skin Diseases mailed free.....I can't understAND a word of Life. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. Your "avored creams ana ices.....come to feeze, The best of all Is APPLE PIE AND CHEESE Field. The men's furnishers.. Newark, Ohio Friday, December 30, 1892 697 k Freeborn County Standard - 11/14/1894 ...Or bate my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The PIE my Julia makes me.....0. DAY, Publisher. ALtERT LEA, MINN. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. Full irmny a xlnful notion.....please, I'll take another plateful Of APPLE PIE AND AND CHEESE Xo alien It, sir, That's.....Dyspeptic come to feaze, Tho best of all la APPLE pic AND CHEESE Though ribalds moy decry.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, November 14, 1894 761 k Adams Sentinel - 4/1/1850 ...then settling cm the window .sill APPLE PIE, pumpkin PIE AND CHEESE; cold pan-cake.....house in Lowell "Breakfast cream AND mince PIE; there were fresh biscuit AND other ct.....w-antinjr. Second course, hot pancakes AND CHEESE. Supper -hot cakes, as. light AND fair.....air. AND in tin h'.-i.'d. breathe devj) AND i'ull to Tinl tuin if the AND of it. So.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, April 01, 1850 913 k Daily Advocate - 7/24/1893 ...with a last contemptuous sniff AND an APPLE-PIE AND-CHEESE look in his eye he made a bee.....Texas Siftings. Homey amp; Edmiston's Book Store. Is the place to get your Pictures.....style. Look at that CHEESE f Where is the APPLE PIE a rod in diameter, built of ten.....best for your money. Homey amp; Edmiston's Book Store No. 9 North Third Street. The.. Newark, Ohio Monday, July 24, 1893 717 k Elyria Republican - 9/6/1883 ...little impression on the eatables. Oh APPLE PIE, mince PIE AND CHEESE; Oh ram, lamb.....where the republicans of Kansas, AND Iowa, AND Indiana AND Maine, AND most of.....Afternoon, Sept. 7th. Pass the news along, AND come AND hear him. MAKE your preparations.....character is perfect, hia recorditelear, AND his ability large. He is the cleanest AND.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, September 06, 1883 713 k Landmark - 11/27/1890 ...with vinegar AND popper, doughnuts, APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. A Charlotte Russo made. out.....With mock solemnity he opened his pookot-book ami presented a crisp now bill. sure.....cold bread, hot johnny cuke, doughnuts, PIE, cookies, CHEESE AND coffee." AND for j.....fairy. The of Clovernook Fnrra was a flcsh-AND blood, helpful sprity call AND sugar, AND.. Statesville, North Carolina Thursday, November 27, 1890 852 k Daily Review - 12/28/1892 ...appease Or bato my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. AND CHEESE No alien it, sir.....a wonder. St. Louis Republic. APPLE Pic ami CHEESE. Your Savored creams aod'ices AND your.....Dyeptpticscoroe to feaxo, The of all to PIE AND ctecso SISTER ELEANOR. Her face hu.....Flo Miller, Mrs. Bender AND Misses Sadie AND Gladys Findler. itlucuu H. A. Kltch AND.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, December 28, 1892 714 k Idaho Tri Weekly Statesman - 7/17/1873 ...dairy, honse -AND everything, in APPLE-PIE AND CHEESE, AND rising cattle. There is.....on tick, you can't fail of paying ont AND making big fuoney A -OOOD ox. cow o ainl.....American or importea, in of its sales AND its icputation restorative. FoTjflSso'f.. Boise, Idaho Thursday, July 17, 1873 630 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 03:02:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:02:55 -0500 Subject: "Carnal Classifieds" Glossary (1982; Havana Good Time (1923) Message-ID: I didn't find "shit happens" in SCREW magazine in 1982-1983. This "carnal classifieds" glossary might be of interest. It's probably earlier than 1982: SCREW began in 1968. SCREW might have suspended publication recently. All the escort ads are now in the VILLAGE VOICE and NEW YORK PRESS, or in late-night ads on Manhattan Cable. SCREW was "of its time," though. 4 January 1982, SCREW, pg. 44, col. 1: GLOSSARY B/B...Body Builder/Building B/D...Bondage and Discipline Bestiality...Sex with Animals B/F or B/M...Black Female or Male C/B...(Involving the) Cock/Balls C/P...Corporal Punishment D/T...Dominance Training; Dirty Talk English...Whipping (esp. with riding crop, quirt, taws, etc.) F/F...Fist Fucking/Fucker French...Orally stimulate the sexual organs F/S...Face Sitting/Sitter G/E...Golden Enema (administered with urine) (Not in Lighter or Green?--ed.) G/M...Gay Male Greek...Anal Worship/Penetration G/S (Golden Shower)...Urinate (on partner) G/T...Genital Torture H/H...High Heels H/T...Head Trip (mental scene) Infibulate...Pierce: nipples, genitalia, etc. (OED has "infibulate" from 1623. It's listed as "rare." "Infibulation" is from 1650. Neither is for "pierce"--ed.) J/O...Jerk Off (masturbate) L/L...Leather/Levis "m"...masochist (bottom person) M/F...Male/Female Neophyte or Novice...Beginner (inexperienced) P/P...Photo/Phone; Pot/Poppers Pros...Prostitute/Professional Models Rim...French the Anal Area Roman...Orgy Inclinations R/S...Rough Stuff "S"...Sadist (Top Person) (Col. 2--ed.) SASE...Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope Scat...Scatalogy (shit) S/F...Suck/Fuck; Submissive Female S&M...Sado/Masochistic Tendencies TS...Transsexual T/T...Tit Torture; Toilet Training TV...Transvestite VA...Verbal Abuse W/E...Well Endowed W/F or W/M...White Female or Male 12 September 1983, SCREW, pg. 3: Win Cheap-Shit Prizes! (Lighter and Green have "cheap shot," but no "cheap shit"?--ed.) 26 September 1983, SCREW, pg. 16, col. 1: Before that Commie killjoy Fidel Castro took over the island, Cuba was famed as a carnal Carib playground for well-heeled wastrels of the Western world (hence the origin of that oft-used postcard inscription "Havana wonderful time"). From posh pleasure palace3s to (Col. 2--ed.) the two-dollar trick-joints lining the light-less alleys of Crib Street, Cuba's capital was a seething sin town, with booze, cooze and casinos among the major attractions. "If you can't find it in Havana," went the popular saying, "then you'll just have to look for it someplace else." Truer words were rarely, if ever, spoken. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indianapolis Star - 9/16/1923 ...crimes today. -A young man likes to HAVANA GOOD TIME. The things which go to make up.....this GOOD" TIMEr (as he knows a GOOD' TIME) are beyond hie reach with the pay.....have had has without a cloudt done more GOOD than harm and we fully guarantee every.....In fact, if thing, it Is-getting worse. The TIME has come 'when in many cases they shoot.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, September 16, 1923 780 k Keystone Courier - 3/5/1880 ...married ladiee. HUMOROUS. Hrant's HAVANA GOOD.TIME. When a soldier is ill he becomes a.....vilh kerosene and applfing IP tbe hill. A GOOD dairy cow, during ten jfsrs of will.....the opinion that they don't pay. Now is the TIME to think about how the garden can be.....of his broth. Nit really necemary to spoil GOOD brandy by putting poor mince pies into.. Connellsville, Pennsylvania Friday, March 05, 1880 579 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 03:35:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:35:30 -0500 Subject: Quarters (1983) Message-ID: "Quarters" is one of the most popular of drinking games. It's not in the OED. I don't know if American "drinking games" will be in the OXFORD ENCYLCOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. I remember it in the late 1970s-early 1980s. September 1983, NATIONAL LAMPOON, pg. 79, col. 1 ad: QUARTERS OFFICIAL GAME GLASS GRAB YOUR FRIENDS, GET SOME BEER THE OFFICIAL QUARTERS GAME-GLASS IS HERE!!! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(I searched for "quarters" + "game" + "glass" + beer") Classified Ad 3 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 28, 1978. p. C11 (1 page) (Illegible--ed.) The Day Liberty Lost Her Head; The Great Pastime of Bar Bets The Statue of Liberty Ploy By Joseph P. Mastrangelo. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 22, 1979. p. B1 (2 pages) (Illegible--ed.) Leonards, Neighborhood Bar; A Classic of Its Kind, Pub in Wheaton Is Home for 300 Regulars Leonard's: A Classic Neighborhood Bar By Bob Levey Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 30, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages) (Not here--ed.) Take Advantage Of the Home Field; 2-Minute Drill By Phyllis C. Richman and Bob Kelleter. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 22, 1984. p. L1 (2 pages) (Illegible--ed.) THE BEACH; Ocean City Ritual Lures The Young and Restless Summer Season Is Under Way With Ocean City's Rowdy Ritual Human Tide Rolls Onto Ocean City Streets By Arthur S. Brisbane Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 27, 1984. p. A1 (3 pages) (Second Page): "During Memorial Day weekend we sold a lot of what you call quarter glasses. You try to flip a quarter into the glass and if you miss you take a drink of beer. You play until you fall down." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 07:31:05 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 02:31:05 EST Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad Message-ID: http://www.tvgameshows.net/scoreboard.htm MONDAY, JAN. 26 Jeopardy!: Wagering was important going into Final Jeopardy! as champion Lili Williams and Rob Poodiack each had $12,000 at that point. For the third straight day, no one came up with the correct final response. Category: Latin Lingo. Answer: this three-word phrase, familiar in the U.S., originated in an ancient poem and described assembling foods to make salad. Correct response: what is E Pluribus Unum? Williams made the more conservative wager and ended with $6,800 to retain the title and a two-day total of $15,400. JEOPARDY! watcher and ADS member David Shulman spotted this...After this question, JEOPARDY! host Alex Trebek had one-too-many salads and drove his car into a ditch. "E PLURIBUS UNUM," one out of many, is how Virgil described making a salad. There are many Google hits. Shulman told me that some restaurants called their salads "E Pluribus Unum." I checked Newspaperarchive.com. There are 29 hits, but nothing to indicate a threat to "Caesar." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Approximately 29 Results Woodland Daily Democrat - 7/10/1895 ...to bEing my dEath. MontrEal WitnEss. "E PLURIBUS UNUM." ThE circumstancEs attEnding.....a vEllum bound brochurE) ThE pricE of this book is f 10. Mrs. Nurich NonsEnsE You can't.....poEm dEvotEd to a dEscription of a cErtain SALAD In thE rhyming rEcipE hE givEs.....thE adoption of thE lEgEnd "B PLURIBUS UNUM" as thE motto of thE UnitEd.. Woodland, California Wednesday, July 10, 1895 811 k Salisbury Times - 10/6/1958 ...D. Thompson of REhoboth BEach. ThE motto, E PLURIBUS UNUM, which is Engrav Ed on UnitEd.....for SALADs that tastEs good. Too many SALAD for wEight watchE rs arE onEs wE'd.....of grEEn cabbagE and citrus fruit. This SALAD can ring an intErEsting mEnu changE.. Salisbury, Maryland Monday, October 06, 1958 522 k News - 7/29/1997 ...ConsidEr thE motto on thE GrEat SEal, "E PLURIBUS UNUM" onE out of many, h E said. ThE.....comEs from a poEm by Virgil about making a SALAD. A SALAD is not a bad mEtaphor for.....AmErica, sincE thE ingrEdiEnts of a SALAD stay sE paratE, unlikE in thE mElting.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, July 29, 1997 620 k Frederick Post - 7/29/1997 ...ConsidEr thE motto on thE GrEat SEal, "E PLURIBUS UNUM" onE out of many, h E said. ThE.....comEs from a poEm by Virgil about making a SALAD. A SALAD is not a bad mEtaphor for.....AmErica, sincE thE ingrEdiEnts of a SALAD stay sE paratE, unlikE in thE mElt ing.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, July 29, 1997 599 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 8/10/1966 ...Adams and Thomas JEffErson suggEstEd "E PLURIBUS UNUM" as thE motto of thE sEal of.....STRAWBERRY PRESERVES 39c WIS. SWEET PEAS 4 SALAD DRESSING 39C SALTINE CRACKERS Mb. 21.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, August 10, 1966 674 k Progress - 3/12/1953 ...cErtificatE" and "EstablishmEnts." In "E PLURIBUS UNUM" thE "E" is backwards, thE "P.....of split cornbrcad accompaniEd by fruit SALAD. Worsf CountErfE itEr Still in BusinEss.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 12, 1953 685 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 6/30/1955 ...scroll on which is inscribEd thE motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM" OnE Out of Many. ThosE prEsEnt.....s gift. ShE carriEd a whitE prayEr book, chid and stE phanotis. Miss Mary LouisE.....to mayonnaisE: sErvE ovEr hard-cookEd Egg SALAD. hart. Mrs. Raymond Ross, Mrs. was.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 30, 1955 1129 k Bradford Era - 8/31/1953 ...John Adams is crEditEd with thE motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM." NEw Star in any Lodging Show.....in luinmEr hEat than a crisp, cool SALAD. And up SALADs ErE bE ttEr than thE.. Bradford, Pennsylvania Monday, August 31, 1953 752 k Daily Times News - 4/19/1969 ...on U. S. coins mintEd in 1787; "E PLURIBUS UNUM" was usEd in 1787; "E PLURIBUS UNUM' Was.....onions, friEd okra, candlEd yams, pEach SALAD, bEEt picklE s, slicEd tomatoEs, and.. Burlington, North Carolina Saturday, April 19, 1969 845 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/31/1956 ...A BrEEd's Hill, nEarby. did thE motto., "E PLURIBUS UNUM" first appEar on U.S. coins? In.....WintEr '5G issuE of our complEtE pattErn book Basic FASHION a complEtE sEwing guidE.....15 What SimplE Simon wantEd 16 DislikEs 18 SALAD vEgEtablEs 20 Mountain ridgE 21 AngEr.. Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 31, 1956 778 k From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Feb 8 08:51:55 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:51:55 -0000 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" Message-ID: Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch with the definition of brothel. In the case of the former this can be nautch, nautch house or nautch joint. In the case of the latter, it is invariably in combination, again with house or joint. While the chronology of these cites - all 20C - does indeed suggest some form of conflation/confusion, I should add that in UK usage notch, for vagina, has existed since the early 17C; I have cites for 1613, 1656, 1660 and onwards. However it never appears in a brothel combination prior to 20C. Nor do there appear to be UK examples thereof. Likewise, such combs. as notch girl and notch moll, both prostitutes, are post-1900 and only US. My own feeling would be that nautch, with its roots in the stereotyped exotic and by extension erotic Orient, is most likely the root word, however spelt, for the brothel terms. Notch, in these cases being either mis- or quasi-phonetically spelt. Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 09:19:17 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 04:19:17 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry); SAT Message-ID: JFK This one has been making the rounds recently. It was used in a NEW YORK POST story about "The Real Kerry." JFK "JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4052226/ At St. Paul's, a posh prep school in New Hampshire, Kerry was not popular. On the hockey team, he was called "Keep-the-Puck Kerry" because he didn't like to pass to his teammates as he skated toward the goal. Barging into pickup games on the school's frozen ponds, he was known for stealing the puck from younger boys and shooting it into the woods. At a Republican Episcopalian school he was a Democrat and a Roman Catholic who worshiped John F. Kennedy. The boys reportedly joked that his own initials—also JFK—stood for "Just For Kerry." (Kerry told NEWSWEEK that the nickname is "bogus," made up a few years ago by a mean-spirited Boston Globe columnist.) Prep-school boys of that era were not supposed to grasp or grind; the ideal was "effortless grace." Kerry committed the cardinal schoolboy sin of showing his ambition. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Michael Paine's cousin in the White House !!! ... and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his initials, ``JFK,´´ as if the ... as one said, joked that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.´´ He even ... alt.assassination.jfk - Apr 14, 2003 by Gary Buell - View Thread (3 articles) He was an avid hockey and soccer player. He also founded a political> > society; and it was obvious he was smitten by the Kennedy mystique.> > After a visit to Boston in the spring of 1960, Kerry was heading for> > North Station to return to St. Paul's when he saw a crowd gathering.> > It was a Kennedy rally.> > ``I was very taken. It just captured you, the whole excitement, and> > the possibility of change. The next day I gave a speech about why he> > should be president.´´> > Kerry was mocked by some at St. Paul's as a Kennedy wannabe. He'd sign> > his papers and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his> > initials, ``JFK,´´ as if the political affinity were preordained.> > Behind his back, classmates rolled their eyes and, as one said, joked> > that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.´´> > He even briefly dated Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy's half sister, and> > was at the Bouvier mansion in Newport, R.I., one summer day when his> > idol, Jack Kennedy, happened by and invited him out for a sail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SAT "SAT" means just that. It no longer officially means "Scholastic Aptitude Test." It could just as easily mean "Kentucky Fried Chicken." The new movie THE PERFECT SCORE tries something for "SAT," but I forget it. "Satisfying And Tempting"? One web site has "Scholastic Apparel Tribulation." Has anything else caught on? From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Feb 8 13:41:51 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:41:51 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207113341.02efcb00@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? dInIs >HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: > >"1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of homosexuality)." > >from ca. 1942-5 > >AND > >"2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." > >from 1953. > >Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: > >"1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence >is lacking]" > >I doubt this derivation of sense 1 from sense 2. I speculate (without any >decisive evidence) that "asshole buddy" began -- during WW II or earlier -- >as a casual humorous military alteration of "foxhole buddy" meaning the man >who shares one's foxhole. This would give sense 1 first. No doubt >double-entendre was obvious from the start or very soon, and I think sense >2 likely was attached to the already existing phrase. Was sense 2 ever >common, outside of jokes based on sense 1? > >"Foxhole buddy" is still used to mean "Army/Marine buddy from the war", I >believe. > >Tending to support the derivation from "foxhole buddy" is the rarity of >alternatives such as "asshole friend" or "asshole pal" or "asshole >comrade". It's virtually always "buddy" ... because, I think, it originated >with the establishment and maintenance of foxholes by the "buddy system" >(not the *"friend system" or whatever). > >Around 1960-70, I often heard "asshole buddy" = "very close friend", and it >had (as HDAS says) no homosexual implication, even when it could naturally >have had (e.g., "He got his promotion because he's the boss's asshole >buddy", which had in my experience a very different meaning from something >like "... because he's the boss's lover/etc."). > >In my experience (not necessarily representative) "asshole buddy" (sense 1) >is usually or almost always spoken with second-word stress, in keeping with >"asshole" acting as an adjective = "good": thus "my close BUDDY", "my bosom >BUDDY", "my asshole BUDDY" (also "my fat BUDDY", "my old BUDDY", etc.). > >I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the same >stress? Modifiers which denote the context of a friendship will, I think, >usually have (first-word) stress: "my FISHING buddy", "my POKER buddy", "my >ARMY buddy". And probably "my FOXHOLE buddy" (can anyone confirm or refute >this one?). Is there "ASSHOLE buddy" on a similar basis in conventional >speech? In sense 1, or 2, or maybe in both? Maybe some of the list scholars >can repair my ignorance? > >-- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 8 15:28:05 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:28:05 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? I haven't addressed the etymology of "buddy" since it was already old by the time "asshole buddy" appeared (approx. 1940's). I suppose probably "buddy" is etymologically a simplification of "brother" but I'm not sure whether there is firm evidence one way or the other. Or is the question about some specific sense of "buddy"? "Buddy system" has been conventional since well before WW II, in the military and otherwise (e.g., in swimming). My speculation is not about the origin of "buddy" ... nor of "asshole" ... my question is how the latter word came to modify the former with the sense "good"/"close"/"intimate" (one might think that "asshole buddy" would most naturally mean "buddy who is an asshole" rather than "close buddy"). -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 8 15:40:42 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:40:42 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: Another straightdope question. Amazingly modern expression, evidently. Is one form more British and the other US? I just did a quicky search of Newspaperarchive, and found a 1918 Washington Post story(written by a British correspondent in Paris) for "mind boggles." The first "boggles the mind" cites show up in 1969-70 US. Sam Clements From imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK Sun Feb 8 18:11:10 2004 From: imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK (Imran Ghory) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:11:10 +0000 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? In-Reply-To: <20040208154207.6A5656375C@bits.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > I just did a quicky search of Newspaperarchive, and found a 1918 = > Washington Post story(written by a British correspondent in Paris) for = > "mind boggles." That terms on the OED's appeals list, here's a citation I sent them, "We are bound to believe our record until belief is shown to be impossible; but if the MSS, in attributing works to ancient authors, only furnish us with a thesis to prove, there is opened a vista of scepticism and material for dissertions at which the mind boggles." - The American Journal of Philology (Volume 20: Number 4 (1899)) p. 439. Imran -- http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 8 17:46:29 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:46:29 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <15b.2d400cf9.2d575915@aol.com> Message-ID: What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are personal initials now to be antedated? At 04:19 AM 2/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >JFK > > This one has been making the rounds recently. It was used in a NEW YORK >POST story about "The Real Kerry." > >JFK "JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE) > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4052226/ >At St. Paul's, a posh prep school in New Hampshire, Kerry was not popular. On >the hockey team, he was called "Keep-the-Puck Kerry" because he didn't like >to pass to his teammates as he skated toward the goal. Barging into pickup >games on the school's frozen ponds, he was known for stealing the puck from >younger boys and shooting it into the woods. At a Republican Episcopalian >school he >was a Democrat and a Roman Catholic who worshiped John F. Kennedy. The boys >reportedly joked that his own initials—also JFK—stood for "Just For >Kerry." >(Kerry told NEWSWEEK that the nickname is "bogus," made up a few years ago >by a >mean-spirited Boston Globe columnist.) Prep-school boys of that era were not >supposed to grasp or grind; the ideal was "effortless grace." Kerry committed >the cardinal schoolboy sin of showing his ambition. > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Re: Michael Paine's cousin in the White House !!! >.... and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his initials, >``JFK,´´ as >if the ... as >one said, joked that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.´´ He even ... >alt.assassination.jfk - Apr 14, 2003 by Gary Buell - View Thread (3 articles) > He was an avid hockey and soccer player. He also founded a political> > >society; and it was obvious he was smitten by the Kennedy mystique.> > >After a >visit to Boston in the spring of 1960, Kerry was heading for> > North >Station to >return to St. Paul's when he saw a crowd gathering.> > It was a Kennedy >rally.> > > ``I was very taken. It just captured you, the whole excitement, and> > > the >possibility of change. The next day I gave a speech about why he> > should be >president.´´> > Kerry was mocked by some at St. Paul's as a Kennedy >wannabe. >He'd sign> > his papers and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with >his> > >initials, ``JFK,´´ as if the political affinity were preordained.> > Behind >his back, classmates rolled their eyes and, as one said, joked> > that the >initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.´´> > He even briefly dated >Jacqueline Bouvier >Kennedy's half sister, and> > was at the Bouvier mansion in Newport, R.I., >one summer day when his> > idol, Jack Kennedy, happened by and invited him >out >for a sail. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 8 18:06:26 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:06:26 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <005401c3ee20$d03a9450$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: Since I assume these terms aren't generally spelled or found in print, the change in spelling would seem to logically follow a change in pronunciation, as Dennis said, i.e., to reflect the gradual merger in AmEng of 'short o' =spelled 'o' and 'open o' =spelled 'au'. It's the same conflation seen in an old Dennis the Menace cartoon, where the family is at a Christmas tree farm and (the merging) Dennis asks, "Do you have any naughty pine?" Thus lexical 'confusion' may have followed the respelling of a generally oral usage to fit American English. Even if two different meanings were originally in use, lexical conflation appears to have followed the phonetic conflation. Possible? At 08:51 AM 2/8/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch >with the definition of brothel. In the case of the former this can be >nautch, nautch house or nautch joint. In the case of the latter, it is >invariably in combination, again with house or joint. While the chronology >of these cites - all 20C - does indeed suggest some form of >conflation/confusion, I should add that in UK usage notch, for vagina, has >existed since the early 17C; I have cites for 1613, 1656, 1660 and >onwards. However it never appears in a brothel combination prior to 20C. >Nor do there appear to be UK examples thereof. Likewise, such combs. as >notch girl and notch moll, both prostitutes, are post-1900 and only US. My >own feeling would be that nautch, with its roots in the stereotyped exotic >and by extension erotic Orient, is most likely the root word, however >spelt, for the brothel terms. Notch, in these cases being either mis- or >quasi-phonetically spelt. > >Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 19:38:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:38:14 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) and SAT (1947) Message-ID: Possibly. I previously reported about LBJ (Little Brown Job). The initials JFK are candidates for slang usage. It's early in the campagin season, but there's every reason for the slang usage of the JFK initials to catch on. If it becomes popular enough, it should be recorded. Slang of other initials have been recorded. For example, there are crash meanings for the airlines TWA and SAS and MIAT. Government agencies such as NASA, FBI, CIA, NSA have slang on their initials. I somehow knew this would happen. I work my ass off, research my ass off, and no one ever says anything good, and I get slammed for something "almost wrong" like this. It's been like that all my life. SAT is in the OED (from 1961). That definition needs to be revised now that "SAT" officially stands for nothing. Here's a trademark. (TRADEMARK) Word Mark SAT Goods and Services IC 016. US 038. G & S: PRINTED TESTS AND TEST BOOKLETS. FIRST USE: 19470500. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19470500 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73080156 Filing Date March 15, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1067665 Registration Date June 14, 1977 Owner (REGISTRANT) COLLEGE ENTRANCE EXAMINATION BOARD NON-PROFIT MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATION NEW YORK 45 COLUMBUS AVENUE NEW YORK NEW YORK 10023 Attorney of Record LOWELL D KERN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19970305 From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:42:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:42:06 -0800 Subject: Thing or Think Message-ID: There was a recent thread on the Honyaku translation list about "I you think X, you've got another XXX coming." I was shocked at the number of people who insisted that only "think" was logical for XXX and that (1) it was absolutely the only correct response or (2) it was the only way they had ever heard it. Until those e-mails, it had never occurred to me that XXX might be think rather than thing! Although I agree with the opinions that "think" is witty, those same opinions also sounded pretty prescriptivist, so I don't thing I'll switch over. Benjamin Barrett From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:43:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) and SAT (1947) In-Reply-To: <200402081938.i18JcgwR018807@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I thought it was an interesting catch and will try to post positive messages in the future. HTH Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM >I work my ass off, >research my ass off, and no one ever says anything good, From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:58:42 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:58:42 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040208100748.02efb950@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Well, that wasn't my point. Since "buddy" comes from Brit. dial. "butty," and since its connection to "butt" has been claimed, I was just speculating that the connection between "asshole" and "buddy" might not be so far off (anatomically speaking, that is). dInIs >>>Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? > >I haven't addressed the etymology of "buddy" since it was already old by >the time "asshole buddy" appeared (approx. 1940's). > >I suppose probably "buddy" is etymologically a simplification of "brother" >but I'm not sure whether there is firm evidence one way or the other. > >Or is the question about some specific sense of "buddy"? "Buddy system" has >been conventional since well before WW II, in the military and otherwise >(e.g., in swimming). > >My speculation is not about the origin of "buddy" ... nor of "asshole" ... >my question is how the latter word came to modify the former with the sense >"good"/"close"/"intimate" (one might think that "asshole buddy" would most >naturally mean "buddy who is an asshole" rather than "close buddy"). > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 20:08:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:08:18 EST Subject: International Man of Mystery (1934) Message-ID: INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY--51,400 Google hits, 13,200 Google Groups hits What's the deal with "international man of mystery"? Is there a national man of mystery? Is there an international woman of mystery? Do you have to travel a lot and read a lot of Poe? Maybe I qualify? Certain, Mike Myers popularized "international man of mystery" with his three AUSTIN POWERS movies. But this article uses the term with a straight face: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040216-588396,00.html That's why ricin once enjoyed a certain cachet among international men of mystery. Every spywatcher knows about Bulgarian defector Georgi Markov, who was assassinated in London in 1978 in a ploy that James Bond or Austin Powers would appreciate: a shadowy stalker jabbed Markov in the leg with an umbrella rigged to inject a pellet of ricin under his skin (the killer was never found, but the KGB and the Bulgarian secret service were prime suspects). The following articles probably hit it on the head. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ironwood Daily Globe - 9/11/1934 ...You have been called the INTERNATIONAL "MAN OF MYSTERY" for years. Reputed'y one OF.....He is an economic scholar OF we'1-deserved INTERNATIONAL repute. More thin that, he.....The cruJ cr politics will say the rame MAN was the author also OF the prediction.....precious little patriotism concerned in the INTERNATIONAL shindigs that made a shambles.. Ironwood, Michigan Tuesday, September 11, 1934 804 k Salamanca Republican Press - 5/19/1936 ...JACOBS Tap JOHN BOOTH The INTERNATIONAL -MAN OF MYSTERY No Advance in Prices for This.....the Newberry award for the best juvenile book OF the year, "Caddie Woodlawn." Miss.....has been assistant superintendent and road MAN, will act as foreMAN OF the receiving.....brought with her an autographed copy OF the book, which she has placed on display in the.. Salamanca, New York Tuesday, May 19, 1936 608 k Sheboygan Press - 2/21/1939 ...The Ont., attorney and "INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY" who renounced one-third OF.....the evt nlng, that la formally, Mr. Lebet MAN made adequate reply to s who preceded him.....Trio. WENR. V. M. Virginia Grant, WHBL, MAN on Street, WBBM. Frolics Before 6, WMAQ.....and as she opened her car door a young MAN stepped up with a revolver. He got in the.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, February 21, 1939 794 k Mansfield News Journal - 7/13/1951 ...night clerk at a YMCA than an INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY. He is Alfred Kohlberg. 64year.....influence OF opinion, KoMberg is a busy one-MAN crusade. He makes at least one speech a.....OF the state Health department. Because OF reports OF large numbers OF insects and OF.....consent OF both the board OF directors OF the YM and the executive board OF the.. Mansfield, Ohio Friday, July 13, 1951 643 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/18/1955 ...STORY: A treasure cruise, an INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY and a pretty girl already make.....On those three days teachers will be in the book room on the first floor to issue.....or even known OF, only one complete master OF the difficult art OF knife-throwing. TO.....and the electives indicated at the time OF registration last May. On the first day OF.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, August 18, 1955 654 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/22/1955 ...been retained by Viego Sana, INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY. All they know so far is that.....to the starlit dark, we became aware OF a MAN walking away from us through the deep.....Fatal Beating SUNLAND, Calif, A 91-yearold MAN was in jail today on suspicion OF murder.....last. So. hot and humid that a Hampton MAN, -who'd been fishing in Mills Creek.. Ironwood, Michigan Monday, August 22, 1955 603 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/31/1955 ...THE STORT: Viggo Sand, INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, is sailing to Haiti to.....a sequin evening bag and retired with a book. Short ol slugging us, a method which I.....OF this world today spurred pursuers OF a MAN wanted in connection with the rifle.....Beth and 'I are doing here. We are a couple INTERNATIONAL bums. In a modest way I suppose.. Ironwood, Michigan Wednesday, August 31, 1955 796 k Bridgeport Post - 9/20/1955 ...colorful financial figure and INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, v.-as found strangled in his.....risks, however great they may be In the book, are less for Abe RibicOFf than they.....co-executor OF the estate with the slain MAN's mother. Mrs. Stella Rubinstein. said.....REWARD done for Congress j jtf RUBENSTEIN MYSTERY __ CFL convention, the Governor to go.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, September 20, 1955 699 k Lethbridge Herald - 9/21/1955 ...colorful financial figure end INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, was found strangled in his.....an. Invest. Funds Resources OF Can. ;omm. INTERNATIONAL Average OF Canada Grouped.....K. 6.35 Gods Lake .67 Goldcrest ,18 Golden MAN. 3.60 Goldfields .56 Graham. Bonsquet .30.....in Ihe area to take up positions alons: the INTERNATIONAL border as a means OF Hockin? an.. Lethbridge, Alberta Wednesday, September 21, 1955 798 k From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 8 21:38:08 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:38:08 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: And, after a poster at straightdope suggested that Wodehouse used the phrase "the imagination boggles" frequently, I searched newspaperarchive. There was a 1908 cite for "imagination boggles." From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 8 22:07:59 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:07:59 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <005401c3ee20$d03a9450$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: >Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch >with the definition of brothel. Oops, I should noted that a Hindi origin of "nautch" appears in the Cassell slang dictionary. Sorry. -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 22:15:49 2004 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:15:49 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Thing=20or=20Think?= Message-ID: What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always understood it as a clever and sensible statement. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Feb 8 22:18:23 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:18:23 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_Thing_or_Think?= Message-ID: As in so many other areas, I agree with heavy metal legends Judas Priest here, and it's always been "you've got another thing coming" for me. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Steve Boatti Sent: Sun 2/8/2004 4:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re:       Thing or Think What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always understood it as a clever and sensible statement. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 22:59:00 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:59:00 EST Subject: "Life is uncertain...eat dessert first" (1985) Message-ID: "Life is uncertain, eat dessert first"- --sign on the Buttercup Bakery Shop, 973 Second Avenue, New York, NY (known for its cupcakes--ed.) This phrase has been used by many bakeries, Who said it? Where did it start? Does it comes from a bumper sticker? Was it said in 1985 at Yale? EAT DESSERT FIRST--7,610 Google hits, 7,350 Google Groups hits EAT DESSERT FIRST + LIFE IS UNCERTAIN--3,740 Google hits, 4,030 Google Groups hits EAT DESSERT FIRST + LIFE IS SHORT--1,440 Google hits, 1,129 Google Group hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Intermittent Login Problems ... then restart the system. this is in the last issue of the PipeLine. Martin McDonald SGI Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first. comp.sys.sgi - Feb 28, 1990 by martin - View Thread (6 articles) Re: The SuperBowl was in 3-D again... I wanted to post this Sunday, but we were in the middle of recovering from a fairly massive system crash on lopez. We did take a ... rec.video - Feb 1, 1990 by Life is uncertain. Eat dessert first. - View Thread (5 articles) Re: Re: weight loss ... Manoj Patel, (The board of trustees do not let NCSU Dispatch. me represent the university - sorry) Eat dessert first - you never know what's going to happen. sci.med - Aug 13, 1989 by DISPATCH at NCSUVM.BITNET - View Thread (65 articles) Re: new Sun type-4 keyboards ... . (Opinions expressed are my own, and not officially endorsed by BBN.) Yeah, what he said :-) -- Matt Landau Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first. ... comp.sys.sun - May 25, 1989 by Matt Landau - View Thread (23 articles) Learning the MAC ... Thanks, Kevin ----- Words to live by: Life is uncertain, eat dessert FIRST! ... comp.sys.mac.programmer - May 1, 1989 by Kevin Flanagan - View Thread (3 articles) INFO-MAC Digest V4 #78 ... Richard Crane "Life is uncertain; eat dessert first." --- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 10:17:44 EDT From: ms1g at andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Steven ... mod.mac - Jun 17, 1986 by Moderator Dwayne Virnau... - View Thread (1 article) INFO-MAC Digest V3 #48 ... Any reponse would be appreciated, either to the net or directly to me on BITNET: CRANER at YALEVMX Thanks, Richard S. Crane "Eat Dessert First, Life is Uncertain ... fa.info-mac - Oct 16, 1985 by info-mac at cca.UUCP - View Thread (1 article)In order to show you (TRADEMARK) Word Mark LIFE IS UNCERTAIN, EAT DESSERT FIRST! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930614. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930614 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74532010 Filing Date June 1, 1994 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition March 7, 1995 Registration Number 1896678 Registration Date May 30, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) Pour la France!, Inc. CORPORATION COLORADO 650 South Cherry Street, Suite 1200 Denver COLORADO 80222 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Robert L. Brown Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date June 8, 2002 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 9/29/1993 ...The Washington Post "Life's uncertain. EAT DESSERT FIRST." It's a playful bumper-sticker.....younger. Initially, her kids did EAT the DESSERT FIRST and not the rest of the meal.....cookie, a cup of pudding may entice them to EAT it FIRST, Satter says. But often they'll.....Telegfam Wednesday, September 29, 1 993 C1 DESSERT FIRST? You're kidding Carols Sugarman.. Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, September 29, 1993 474 k Frederick Post - 7/2/1993 ...kid will tell you that "life is short, EAT DESSERT FIRST." My philosophy on restaurants.....my companions reminded me we came to EAT a meal, not munch on chocolates. I was.....on the way out. OK, so far we've covered DESSERT and chocolate. Is there anything I've.....and winner 7 days a week No credit cards FIRST, right from the start, something needs.. Frederick, Maryland Friday, July 02, 1993 505 k Salamanca Republican Press - 7/13/1932 ...appetite completely destroyed if you EAT DESSERT FIRST of all. not said Freddy. have.....said as he took another. should really EAT sandwiches Emily said. have your.....and juicy it she added as she took her FIRST bite of the peach. They ate until.....that's what makes a picnic a picnic to EAT lots and lots and said Freddy happily.. Salamanca, New York Wednesday, July 13, 1932 730 k Daily Independent Journal - 1/16/1951 ...to Onkel Choe Stalin. t One should EAT DESSERT FIRST, a medico advises. Maybe so.....major new talents on the literary horizon, book critic David Dempsey says that readers.....and bag as many pheasants as they can EAT. More vexing are the tasks of an American.....industry seems fated to be one of the FIRST casualties of war preparedness. And.. San Rafael, California Tuesday, January 16, 1951 632 k From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 23:03:19 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:03:19 -0800 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <200402082215.i18MFvBj012385@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: This is exactly the sort of posts that occurred on Honyaku. Yet I don't understand why "thing" is any less logical than "the whole nine yards", "the Big Apple" or "the sun sets/rises". Sure, there might be historical reasons for such expressions, but I've never had trouble using or understanding the intent of any of these idioms or "thing". As far as "think" being logical, though, it isn't. The unexpected part of speech is ungrammatical, which makes it witty, though certainly no more logical. I don't see any reason to switch to think any more than to abandon the illogical "the sun sets/rises". Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Steve Boatti >--------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------- > >What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got >another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've >got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes >sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with >another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak >perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always >understood it as a clever and sensible statement. > >Steve Boatti >sjb72 at columbia.edu > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 00:10:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:10:24 EST Subject: Riviera Salad; Seabreeze Salad Message-ID: Some stuff from a visit to my local Food Emporium. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RIVIERA SALAD RIVIERA SALAD--215 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit Fresh Express offers "Riviera"--"Salad Blend with Butter Lettuce & Radicchio." Dole has a salad blend called "European." Did Alain Ducasse popularize "Riviera Salad"? The first "Riviera salad" cite below has "SPAM" and is probably not authentic, IMHO. (GOOGLE) http://www.melborponsti.com/rdetail.php?source=melborponsti&record=spam0210 Riviera Salad 6 tb Cooking oil 2 tb Vinegar 1 ts Prepared mustard 1/2 ts Thyme 1/4 ts Salt 1/8 ts Freshly-ground black pepper 1 Garlic clove; minced 1 lb Potatoes -; (3 medium) 1/2 lb Fresh green beans 1 sm Red onion; thinly sliced 1 qt Bite-size lettuce pieces 1 cn Spam luncheon meat - (12 oz); cubed 1 cn Pitted black olives - (3 1/2 oz); drained (GOOGLE) Menu "Stetson" - Appetizers, salads ... garlic, corn), 550, 358. Riviera salad (tomatoes, boiled carrot, green peas, boiled sousage, eggs, black calvair), 515, 335. Salad cowboy ... www.stetson.kz/appetizer_e.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages River Ranch englishmenucontent3 ... RIVIERA SALAD, tuna, mussels, shrinp, olives and black peper.....5.00. ... www.restaurant-hetcarillon.nl/engMenu.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages DUCASSE: Flavors of France ... Some of the recipes, such as The Riviera Salad, Like A Niçoise and the Sautéed Sea Bream with Clams, White Beans, and Girolles may scare off all but the most ... www.cyber-kitchen.com/cookbookreviews/review016.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages TYPOS.COM.CY - The online newspaper of Cyprus ... 3.45. HAM SALAD (Ham, green peppers, peas, mushrooms, rice, 2.80. RIVIERA SALAD (Onions, tuna fish, black olives, egg), 2.55. CHICKEN ... www.typos.com.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=439 - 45k - Cached - Similar pages V A Restaurant & Wine Bar in Westport, Ct. serving California & ... ... vinaigrette, 6.95. CAESAR SALAD, 4.95. RIVIERA SALAD roasted beets, oranges, fennel, baby spinach and citrus vinaigrette, 6.95. NAPA FIELD ... www.culinarymenus.com/vrestaurant.htm - 79k - Cached - Similar pages Left Bank ... 7.75 Riviera Salad Ruby red grapefruit, avocados, spring red torpedo onions and arugula tossed with citrus and Champagne vinaigrette. ... 66.119.39.52/ 94025COMRestaurants.nsf/0/57c5b62933400549852566ac00017e64?OpenDocument - 21k - Cached - Similar pages ALAIN DUCASSE - LE LOUIS XV - LA CARTE ... Grand Riviera salad : Mix of salad, herbs and summer vegetables, tuna belly, pickled anchovies € and poached quail eggs, bread rubbed with tomato and basil. ... www.alain-ducasse.com/_old/louisxv_explique_us.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages A Menu from the Louis XV ... GRAND RIVIERA SALAD: black truffle, artichoke, celery, fennel and endive mixed with wild and ... Menu is copyright Alain Ducasse and is used without permission. shakti.trincoll.edu/~rlai/tssi/menu.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages More GFCFDiet Recipes ... Riviera Salad 6 medium potatoes (about 2 lbs.) 1 cup prepared low calorie oil and vinegar dressing 3 cups assorted fresh vegetables (trimmed asparagus, green ... www.geocities.com/ARNFL/recipes2.html - 72k - Cached - Similar pages ShopFoodEx.com Fresh Express Prepacked Riviera Salad Mix, Butter lettuce and radicchio. Reviews, Shopping Cart, 0 items. Bestsellers, 01. Dole Prepacked "Just Lettuce" Salad Mix. ... www.shopfoodex.com/ catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_497&products_id=2778 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages St. Maarten - St. Martin Restaurants: Web-surfers' Reviews January ... ... We had a Salad Riviera (Salad greens, olive, tuna, anchovy, sweet pepper, scallions, hard-boiled egg) - a Salad Nigoise on steroids - and a bit of tuna on a ... www.gobeach.com/restrant0602.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mountain Democrat - 5/1/1981 ...SALAD combination nowadays. The RIVIERA SALAD Platter picture includes lettuce, but.....of overcrowding. (For details consult the book "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer or.....being used in scrumptious SALADs, like the RIVIERA SALAD Platter pictured here. SALADs.....cooled, cut into squares and serve with SALAD. Cold souffle is good mixed with.. Placerville, California Friday, May 01, 1981 510 k News Post Leader - 9/29/1993 ...Italian SALAD Mix 99 or 8-oz. RIVIERA SALAD Mix Fresh Express 10-oz.pkg. Pear.. Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, September 29, 1993 409 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SEABREEZE SALAD SEABREEZE SALAD--18 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits SEA BREEZE SALAD--17 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits The Food Emporium has a new "Southern Tsunami" sushi bar display. The company is AFC Corp., www.afcsushi.com. It claims there are 1,400 stores throughout 45 U.S. states and Canada with sushi bar locations. "Seabreeze salad" interested me. It seems a simple name for a salad with something from the sea in it. There aren't a whole lot of hits for it. Chowhound's Tampa (FL) "Seabreeze salad" is obviously very different--is it a regional item there? (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: bmn (bmn at iglou.com) Subject: Recipe Help for "Seabreeze Salad"??? Newsgroups: alt.food.sushi Date: 1999/03/04 At a place where we get sushi in Louisville, KY, they have portions of" Seabreeze Salad". The label says it comes from AFC Corp, Compton, CA.The label says it contains the following: "Seaweed, agar-agar, sesame seeds, fungus, chili pepper, sesame seed oil, soybean oil, palm oil, sugar, salt, high fructose corn syrup, distilled vinegar, FD&C yellow No. 5, FD&C blue no. 1." It is in very thin strips mostly. We kind of like it but the oil is a bit heavy tasting (and feeling). I also don't know what sort of seaweed they use. I also don't know which kind of "fungus" to which they'rereferring. Does anyone have a recipe for this? Maybe one with better ingredients than corn syrup and palm oil? ;-) (GOOGLE) Chowhound's Florida Message Board: seabreeze/goody-- seize the day ... The Seabreeze Salad is like many others found in old Tampa restaurants, with ham and a variety of cheeses. Spanish Bean Soup is always a winner. ... www.chowhound.com/south/boards/ florida/messages/9446.html - 9k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > Chowhound's Florida Message Board: A perfect Chowhound weekend > ... Began with a great Seabreeze salad with lots of cheese (tiny pieces of parm, swiss and american), ham, tomato, onion, and romaine and iceberg lettuce. ... www.chowhound.com/south/boards/ florida/messages/6087.html - 7k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 6/21/1984 ...999 reg. SAVE J.G. Durand 7-Pc. "SEABREEZE" SALAD Sets SAVE Proctor-Silex.....99 By Leonard Silver. Sets include: crystal SALAD bowl with silverplated trim, two SALAD.....Less ...5.00 coated plate. SAVE Three Piece SALAD Bowl Sets Make Great Gifts "By mail. 21.. Frederick, Maryland Thursday, June 21, 1984 937 k Frederick Post - 7/14/1988 ...I buy one any size I PROCfFFl H GAMRIF SEA BREEZE SALAD combines savory morsels of.....in a bid to regain a place in the Guinness Book of World Records. "Three. Two. One. Dig.....is well worth the extra effort. In SEA BREEZE SALAD , the home economists at the.....savor a new taste in SEAfood SALADs. SEA BREEZE SALAD 1 pound firm white fish fillets.. Frederick, Maryland Thursday, July 14, 1988 542 k Lethbridge Herald - 7/13/1954 ...in Britain. The Herald's Daily Recipe SEA BREEZE SALAD tablespoons plain gelatin cup.....sugar teaspoon salt 2 cups cooked shrimp SALAD dressing. Soften gelatin in cold water.. Lethbridge, Alberta Tuesday, July 13, 1954 757 k Mountain Democrat - 3/10/1978 ...a kiss of SEA Prepared with a kiss ol SEA BREEZE, SALAD Bar, Veg. San Francisco Sour.....THUR. -9PMFRI.SAT. SON. 10PM DAILY SPECIALS SALAD BAR FABULOUS STEAKS .SEAFOOD FRI., SAT.....O.V discount Baked potato, Texas Toast, SALAD Fn March 10 Sat. March 1 Dinner Starts.. Placerville, California Friday, March 10, 1978 397 k San Mateo Times - 11/20/1926 ...DINNER including cover charge RELISHES SEA BREEZE SALAD TURKEY GIBLET GUMBO SOUP Make.. San Mateo, California Saturday, November 20, 1926 635 k San Mateo Times - 11/23/1926 ...including cover charge 5 RELISHES I SEA BREEZE SALAD TURKEY GIBLET GUMBO SOUP HOME.....but also the seventh angel mentioned in the Book of Revelations. A handful of followers.....of the night had been loosed over land and SEA. Sells Amusement On the outskirts of the.. San Mateo, California Tuesday, November 23, 1926 546 k Lethbridge Herald - 4/18/1959 ...carrot slice on a wooden pick. XXX. SEA BREEZE SALAD l'i tablespoons plain gelatin.....company casserole. Serve .with a tart green SALAD and hot rolls. 2 cans condensed cream.....i ]4 teaspoon salt 2 cups cooked shrimp SALAD dressing Soften gelatin in cold water.. Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 18, 1959 668 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 3/18/1969 ...WEEK" A Special Lenten SEAson Recipe SEA BREEZE SALAD 1 cup mayonnaise Va cup French.....HI-C DRINKS 3 1-qUV01'89c CHICKEN OF THE SEA 1.00 TUNA FSSH 6e2an? HO-MADE Ham Loaves.....1 cup shredded carrols 5 cups cooked SEA shell macaroni, 2 7-oz. cans tuna. 1 lb.. Ironwood, Michigan Tuesday, March 18, 1969 828 k From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:08:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:08:25 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: "Jobs, jobs, jobs." this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on "location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 sites listed. in any case, there's a formula here: The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. (conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). i've been calling this, in my own mind, the Rule of Three, but perhaps somone has studied it already, and given it a name? has anyone assembled some collection of instances of the formula? (they are all over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an exemplar?) this is *not* an invitation for people to supply their recollections of exemplars of the formula, though citations from printed sources or data collections, especially of some age, would be welcome. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 02:14:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:14:03 -0500 Subject: IMoM (1932): Riviera Salad (1968); Seabreeze Salad Message-ID: INTENRATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY I'm back at NYU with the ProQuest databases. There are 68 hits in the NEW YORK TIMES. The first is 1932; the next is 1997! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ALONG THE HIGHWAYS OF FINANCE.; Labor Day as a Mile-Stone in Wall Street -- Montagu Norman's Mysteries -- An Experiment With Labor. By EUGENE M. LOKEY.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1932. p. F5 (1 page): Among bankers here there is no sympathy for Mr. Norman in his affectation of the role of international man of mystery. 2. Other 11 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1997. p. H23 (1 page) --------------------------------------------------------------- RIVIERA SALAD Only four NEW YORK TIMES hits. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. And Now -- Salad Days By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 13, 1961. p. SM69 (1 page): _RIVIERA SALAD_, sometimes called salade Nicoise, is served here as the main course of a light supper. The dish, which contains such Mediterranean specialties as tuna fish, anchovies, tomatoes, olives and olive oil, is well suited for informal summertime entertaining. For an added touch of elegance, the meal is accompanied by a chilled white wine. Recipes for this French dish and three other main-course salads are given on this page. 2. Pique-Nique' Is Almost a Way of Life By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1968. p. 46 (1 page): CALIFORNIA RIVIERA SALAD 3. Article 2 -- No Title By ANN PRINGLE HARRIS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1988. p. XX12 (2 pages) 4. Warm Welcome, Soul-Satisfying Food By JOANNE STARKEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 16, 1997. p. LI27 (1 page) --------------------------------------------------------------- SEABREEZE SALAD There are only two FACTIVA hits, but both are from Tampa. Has it spread outside the Seabreeze Restaurant to become a genuine regional dish? (FACTIVA) BAYLIFE FLAVOR Eatery Favorites In Cookbook MARY D. SCOURTES 579 words 27 February 2002 The Tampa Tribune FINAL 5 English (Copyright 2002) TAMPA - Dried sweet basil and dried oregano turned up often in dishes at the former Seabreeze restaurant. Another flavoring was egg shade, a liquid coloring only found at a wholesale distributor, says Helen Richards, who, with husband Robert, wrote "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook." Basic recipes include such favorites as shrimp cocktail and seasoned salt. Broiled Mullet, Robert's favorite fish dish, which became a favorite with shipyard customers, and Smoked Mullet Dip, a complimentary hors d'oeuvre served with crackers, made the book. (...) SEABREEZE SALAD 1/2 head iceberg lettuce, chopped 1/2 head Romaine lettuce, chopped 1/4 cup boiled ham, diced 1/4 cup Swiss cheese, diced 1/4 cup American cheese, diced 1/2 cup green bell pepper, diced 1/4 cup onion, diced 1 ripe tomato, diced 1/4 cup green pimento-stuffed olives 6 black olives 1 bunch celery hearts, chopped Dried sweet basil Parmesan cheese, grated 1 lemon, squeezed Mix lettuces, ham and cheeses. Add remaining ingredients except Parmesan cheese and lemon. Just before serving, squeeze lemon over salad. Serve topped with Seabreeze Salad Dressing and Parmesan. SEABREEZE SALAD DRESSING 2 ounces olive oil 2 ounces vegetable oil 2 cloves garlic, crushed and minced 1 teaspoon oregano flakes 2 ounces red wine vinegar Mix ingredients and let sit 2 hours before serving. (FACTIVA) BAYLIFE FLAVOR The Seabreeze: A New Chapter MARY D. SCOURTES mscourtes at tampatrib.com 930 words 27 February 2002 The Tampa Tribune FINAL 1 English (Copyright 2002) Former owners of the restaurant compile recipes and the history of the closed Tampa landmark in a new cookbook. TAMPA - Robert and Helen Richards were not on hand when the Seabreeze Restaurant opened, nor were they at the helm when it closed. But they spent enough time running this Tampa landmark to fill a book with anecdotes and recipes. Now, copies of their new book, "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook" (American Printing USA, $14.95), are selling almost as fast as heads- on shrimp at Seabreeze Seafood, the market Robert and son Jimmy have operated for 35 years. The 154-page book, published last month, is sprinkled with historical pictures of Tampa. The owners say they sold about 1,000 copies the first month. Back in 1923, the Victor Licata family launched the restaurant before the 22nd Street Causeway was built. Customers would cross McKay Bay in rowboats to enjoy the fresh fish and shellfish from surrounding waters. "The first menu featured anything that could be caught in the bay or woods," says Helen Richards. Later, the menu evolved into a blend of Italian and Cracker cooking. Customers beat a path there for Miss Lucy Potatoes (homemade potato chips), crab Chilau (boiled blue crab in a spicy tomato sauce), steak Milanesa (thin steaks with spaghetti sauce), soft- shell crab and swamp cabbage. Several generations celebrated birthdays, engagements and other special events there. In 1992, when the Licata family decided to sell the Seabreeze, the Richardses learned they would have no place to keep their nearby fleet of shrimp, mullet and crab boats. "We were fishermen. We had a fish market and no idea of ever becoming restaurateurs," recalls Helen. The couple bought the place anyway with Robert becoming the cook and manager, and Helen "its grease." "I was a little bit of everything that made everything run smooth," she quips. The couple ran the restaurant for nine years, then sold it to a company that leased it to a Tampa caterer. The restaurant closed late last year, and the building is empty. Helen Richards loved the Seabreeze's boliche (chorizo-stuffed eye of round), but the big draw was deviled crabs, she says. "It [deviled crab] held the Seabreeze together for seventysomething years," she adds. But you won't find that Licata family crab recipe here. "If [it is published] in the newspaper, [people] won't buy the book," says Richards firmly. Patricia O'Neal, a Seabreeze cook for six years, mixed up 60- pound batches of deviled crab at a time. "Everything was from scratch," O'Neal says. "We didn't have anything that came out of cans or was frozen." And customers came back for the same dishes, she says. It took one year for Helen and Robert, along with historian Andrew T. Huse, to transcribe notes and recipes into the book. Longtime friend Medna Pritchett of Tampa, a Seabreeze customer for 30 years, proofread the recipes. At the Seabreeze, customer loyalty was unequaled. Tampa's Bob Clark Jr. recalls the Seabreeze as a good, convenient place to eat and take business guests. He ate at the Seabreeze every day for a dozen years during much of the '70s and '80s, he says. Over boliche and Seabreeze salad, Clark and other board members of the Miss Tampa Scholarship Pageant sat at the same table to plan the annual event. Clark, the president of Tampa Steel Erecting, says he bought about 50 copies of the cookbook to give away. The book is filled with fan letters and stories, such as one called "Beautiful Danger: The Waterspout," about the Richardses' daughter-in-law Donna and 2-year-old son being trapped inside a waterspout. Riverview's Nancy Foley was moved by the Seabreeze history, especially the waterspout account. "It was terrifying," says Foley, a senior administrative aid at Tampa Electric Co. in Apollo Beach. Foley bought a copy of the cookbook and stayed up all night to finish it. Then she took it to work, and Seabreeze fever broke out. "A lot of us are from the area. When they saw mine, they had to have their own," she says. She went back for three dozen more. "I went there as a teenager" in the late '60s. "I wasn't supposed to go there, but did," she says with a laugh. Across the street was the Auto Park Drive-In, where "the rougher" boys hung out. A Foley favorite is the Seabreeze salad, which was originally tossed at tables. Made with ham and Swiss cheese, it is among the recipes in the cookbook. "It tastes just like I remember," she adds. "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook" is sold at Seabreeze Seafood, behind the restaurant, at 3609 Causeway Crescent, Tampa. Helen Richards is available to sign copies of her book in a nearby office through March. It's also sold at the Tampa Bay History Center downtown and will be in bookstores soon. RECIPES, PAGE 5 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:28:04 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:28:04 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed >that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: >"Jobs, jobs, jobs." > >this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most >important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, >location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a >great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on >"location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 >sites listed. > >in any case, there's a formula here: > The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). > Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" (as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? Googling on the phrase turns up many sites that refer to this as "an old joke", but, alas, none give any clues as to how old. (It's frightening to note that a non-trivial number of hits are returned googling for "location, location, location" and "practice, practice, practice". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:22:49 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:22:49 -0600 Subject: "stubborn as a Missouri mule" -- Is the "Missouri" reference here another put-down on residents of my fair state? Message-ID: I received the following query from a student at the Missouri School of Journalism: >"...I'm working on a story about the phrase "As stubborn as a >Missouri mule." I'd like to know where it came from and what it >symbolizes in terms of the character of Missourians or the state of >Missouri. I'd like to get your comment on it. ... In particular, the student would like to know whether "stubborn as a Missouri mule" is somehow based on a popular perception of Missourians as stubborn. Or does the phrase simply refer to the popularity of the mule among Missouri farmers and the fact that Missouri has been the leading producer of mules. The mule, of course, is also the official state animal. Gerald Cohen From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 9 02:39:24 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:39:24 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 06:08:25PM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is > location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest > exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an > exemplar?) > > this is *not* an invitation for people to supply their recollections of > exemplars of the formula, though citations from printed sources or data > collections, especially of some age, would be welcome. A bit over a month ago, Barry posted a 1960 example to this list of "location" x 3. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 03:19:53 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:19:53 -0600 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0500 2/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are >personal initials now to be antedated? The humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for is a legitimate subject of linguistic interest. HMO's (How Many Others?), TWA (Teeny-Weeny Airlines) are two that come to mind; more examples were once given in a series of ads-l messages about three years ago. A compilation of these items into an article might be worthwhile. Anyone interested? We deal here with humor/playfulness in language, and Allen Walker Read once gave a linguistic address in which he emphasized this feature. The address was published and I have it somewhere in my office. I remember that he quotes someone as referring to man (woman too, of course) as homo ludens--Man at Play." Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages? Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 03:29:07 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:29:07 -0500 Subject: Stubborn as a Missouri mule (1933) Message-ID: (OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY) With the phrase as stubborn as a mule (see sense 1b) cf. French opiniastre comme vne mule (Cotgrave, 1611), têtu comme une mule (1690). 1771 T. SMOLLETT Humphry Clinker II. 169 The captain..becomes stubborn as a mule, and unmanageable as an elephant unbroke. 1812 M. EDGEWORTH Absentee xiii, in Tales Fashionable Life VI. 260 She was as obstinate as a mule on that point. 1853 J. Y. AKERMAN Wiltshire Tales 138 As cam and as obstinate as a mule. 1922 J. JOYCE Ulysses 411 The likes of her! Stag that one is. Stubborn as a mule! 1987 S. BEAUMAN Destiny 268 Jean-Paul can be as stubborn as a mule, and you knew perfectly well that..he would have dug in his heels and insisted 1923 Nation (N.Y.) 17 Oct. 432 Then there is the Missouri mule. He it was who won the war. 1972 Listener 21 Dec. 858/2 Not for nothing did the idiom ‘as stubborn as a Missouri mule’ come into the language. --------------------------------------------------------------- STUBBORN AS A MULE--4,540 Google hits, 1,300 Google Groups hits STUBBORN AS A MISSOURI MULE--59 Google hits, 67 Google Groups hits The phrase "stubborn as a Missouri mule" doesn't seem to be used much anymore. "Stubborn as a mule" goes back to the 18th century. Missouri used mules in the 19th century. I don't think that "Missouri mule" is any special distinction for the phrase. OED's 1972 citation is now improved to 1933. See the many interesting OCLC WORLDCAT citations that follow. (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) 1. His refusal to brush teeth has her down in the mouth; [2 STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle. Houston, Tex.: Jul 5, 2000. p. 2 2. IF YOU PLANT RADISHES, DON'T WAIT FOR ROSES; [SPORTS FINAL, C Edition] Ann Landers. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 9, 1988. p. 3 3. Mom says genes count; [2 STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). Houston, Tex.: Aug 9, 1988. p. 2 4. Domestic fights are matters for police; [NO STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). Houston, Tex.: Feb 2, 1986. p. 2 (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) the natural history of the mule; and its value for the general purposes of agriculture in comparison with horses Robert Wright. The American Farmer, Containing Original Essays and Selections on Rural Economy and Internal Improvements, with Illustrative Engravings and Prices Current of County Produce (1819-1834). Baltimore: Sep 30, 1825. Vol. 7, Iss. 000028; p. 219 (2 pages): Pg. 219: Having thus presented the evidence of the non-creation of the mule, but of its procreation by the intervention of man, I shall proceed to examine its attributes, the very name mule, and the proverb, "as stubborn as a mule," go far to fix their outlines. FAMILIARITY. The New - York Mirror: a Weekly Gazette of Literature and the Fine Arts (1823-1842). New York: Mar 7, 1829. Vol. 6, Iss. 35; p. 280 (1 page): Old Nick, who taught the village school, Had wed a maid of homespun habit; He was stubborn as a mule, And she was playful as a rabbit. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A MATERIALISTIC ARTIST; REMINISCENCES OF GUSTAVE COURBET.A CONVERSATION IN HIS STUDIO AT GENEVA--HIS VIEWS OF HIS PREDECESSORS AND CONTEMPORARIES--COURBET'S CAREER AND HIS WORKS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 9, 1879. p. 10 (1 page): Man is as stubborn as a mule in the convictions which are grounded on tradition. Champ Clark Makes Good. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 26, 1905. p. 6 (1 page): That Champ Clark went through all this effort we have his word, supported by convincing proof in the shape of four ears of as fine corn as ever found place in the internal economy of a Missouri mule of a Kentucky gentleman. SUGAR and SPICE ALMA WHITAKER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 9, 1933. p. A6 (1 page): They tell me she specializes in "sweet logic" and "frustrating grace," while evincing the stubborn tactics of a Missouri mule. MOVES TO MODIFY RED CURBS BEGUN; Lehman and Cannon Propose Action on Congress Return After the Election Cannon Drafting New Bill Expects "Objective Review" By C.P. TRUSSELL Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1950. p. 26 (1 page): The President, he (Republican representative Clare E. Hoffman of Michigan--ed.) contended, had been "as stubborn as a Missouri mule" in calling Congressional findings against alleged subversives "red herrings." Foreign Policy Effect of Election Disputed Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 20, 1950. p. 28 (1 page): "The President is sometimes as stubborn as a Missouri mule," Brewster (Republican senator from Maine--ed.) said, "but I don't believe his Missouri stubbornness will prevent him from realizing that the American people have spoken." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/17/1958 ...17, 1958 PAGE J True Empire The MISSOURI MULE J wAsjnAugurAted As President in j THE.....is given two red i pAper bricks for eAch book thAt he reAds And return? to the librAry.....with pride At the time not long Ago these STUBBORN but sturdy hybrids built the.....hAs hAppened to the proverbiAl MISSOURI MULE? Here, in the heArt of the greAtest of.. Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 17, 1958 557 k Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/17/1958 ...17, 1958 PAGE J True Empire The MISSOURI MULE J wAsjnAugurAted As President in j THE.....is given two red i pAper bricks for eAch book thAt he reAds And return? to the librAry.....with pride At the time not long Ago these STUBBORN but sturdy hybrids built the.....hAs hAppened to the proverbiAl MISSOURI MULE? Here, in the heArt of the greAtest of.. Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 17, 1958 557 k (MISSOURI HISTORICAL NEWSPAPER PROJECT) http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Archive/skins/missouri/navigator.asp?BP=OK&GZ=T&AW=1076295648578 _Jokes, tales_ _and ballads_ _legacy of the_ _Missouri Mule_ (...) Although he has learned much, Porter has not discovered a definitive origin of the legend of the stubborn Missouri mule. The best guess he has heard, he said, came from another farmer, who said he had never owned a stubborn mule, but guessed the legend might have developed because the mule's sire, the jackass, has a reputation for being stubborn. "In short, it could be like the sins of the father returning to haunt the children," Porter said. (WORLDCAT) The Missouri mule : his origin and times / Author: Bradley, Melvin. Publication: Columbia, MO : Extension Division, University of Missouri-Columbia, 1993 Document: English : Book The mule industry of Missouri remembered : a key to transcripts from 130 interviews contained in volumes one through eight of Recollections of Missouri mules / Author: Bradley, Melvin. Publication: [Columbia, Mo.?] : University of Missouri Press, 1991 Document: English : Book Title: Capt. Burl Ives' ark Author(s): Ives, Burl, 1909- (Performer - prf) Publication: New York :; Decca, Year: 1958 Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ;; 12 in. Language: English Music Type: Folk music Standard No: Publisher: DL 8587; Decca Contents: The squirrel (Angus McFergus MacTavish Dundee) / Schmertz -- Look at the little kitty kat / Lippman -- Bongo and his baboon drum / Mayer-Otto -- Horace the horse (on the merry-go-round) / Green-Coben -- The bear on the ball (with the parasol) / Hague -- The whistling rabbit / Curtis -- The ducks (quack, quack, paddle-oh) / Schmertz -- The tenor doodle-doo / Ives -- The bestiary / Ives, arr. -- The monkey and the elephant / Rogers-Abeson -- Old doctor wango tango / Kapp -- The swap song / Ives, arr. -- Old Moby Dick / Ives -- My old coon dog / Ives -- Missouri mule / Ives, arr. -- The bird courting song (The leather-winged bat) / Ives, arr. -- Ground hog / Ives, arr. The Missouri mule. Publication: St. Louis, Mo. : [s.n.], 1910s-1900s Document: English : Serial Publication : Periodical : Monthly The American mule yesterday and today / Ron Young 1988 English Visual Material : Videorecording : VHS tape 2 videocassettes (174 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in. Presents speakers discussing the heritage of the American mule and the Missouri mule at a symposium held to celebrate National Mule Day. Title: The Carrie Minnette Hickerson collection of sheet music. Marches and two steps. Author(s): Hickerson, Carrie Minnette. Year: 1939 Description: 30 scores :; ill. ;; 37 cm. Language: N/A Music Type: Marches Contents: Anniversary march / Rosey -- A-Su-Ma / Van Alystyne -- Bugle call / Dore -- Dixie Call / Wenrich -- Euterpe / Roehr -- Favorite march and two-step / Barth -- Funston's fighting twentieth / Wheeler -- Gardes du corps / Hall -- Gondolier / Powell -- Happy heine / Lampe -- Happy Mose / Kussel -- High school cadets / Sousa -- Honeymoon march / Rosey -- King cotton march / Sousa -- Missouri mule march / Blake -- Rastus on parade / Mills -- Regimental daughters / Powell -- Ripples of Winona / Marshall -- Sailor boy / Marshall -- Siberian dip / Johnson -- Silverheels / Moret -- Soko / Arnold -- Stars and stripes forever / Sousa -- Tannhauser / Wagner -- To war for liberty / Liberati -- Under the double eagle / Wagner -- Washington post / Sousa -- Yankee girl / Lampe -- Ziz / Feltman. The Missouri mule. Corp Author: United States., Works Progress Administration in Missouri. Publication: Jefferson City, Mo. : Works Progress Administration, 1936-? Document: English : Serial Publication : Periodical Title: Smiling 'round the seven seas being the day-by-day cognitions of a wandering minstrel under a score of flags, to which is added a scrapbook collection of ditties and sayings, wise and otherwise / Author(s): Lucy, Thomas Elmore, b. 1872. ; Lucy, Thomas Elmore,; b. 1872. ; When Dad was a boy. Publication: University City, Mo. : [s.n.] : Distributed by the Tourist Shop, Year: 1920-1929? Description: [2], 98, [1] p., [5] leaves of plates : ill., music, port. ; 20 cm. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Travel -- Poetry. American wit and humor. Ballads, English -- United States. Entertainers -- United States. Named Person: Lucy, Thomas Elmore, b. 1872. Note(s): Includes poetry./ "Printed by A.H. Anderson Printing Co. Streator, Ill."--P. before t.p./ Cover title: Smiling round the seven seas: Arkansas traveler globe trotting on a Missouri mule./ In: American poetry, 1900-1950, in the Harris Collection, Brown University Library. Reel no. 1326. Item no. 16./ Reproduced for the Great Collections Microfilming Project, Phase II, Research Libraries Group./ Reproduction: Microfilm./ Providence, RI. :/ Brown University Library,/ 1993./ 1 microfilm reel (in part) ; 35 mm. ... Low reduction. The Missouri mule. Author: Coots-Ferrell, Alma. Publication: [n.p., 1908 Document: English : Book Missouri mule. Author: Blake, C. Publication: New York, Shapiro, Remick & Co., 1904 Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 03:33:56 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:33:56 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Altoona(PA) Mirror, 1906. Talking about piano playing. "practice, practice, practice." Just the facts, sir. No commentary. Sam Clements From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 03:30:57 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:30:57 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman" Message-ID: At 11:06 AM -0800 2/6/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 >From: Sarah Bunin Benor >To: jewish-languages at jewish-languages.org >Subject: Server, "beitza," seal > >...Here's an interesting anecdote. A friend came across the word "beitza" >(Heb. 'egg') as a name for a non-Jew in Ireland. He was told that it comes >from Yiddish "eyer" ('eggs') through phonetic matching with "ire" >('Irish'). ... This is of course very interesting, but how widespread is the usage? Where did the friend come across it? Does it have any currency beyond the creative humor of one or two individuals? Gerald Cohen From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 03:44:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:44:48 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Also, a cite about how to learn to type in the same time frame. "practice, practice, practice." And an 1888 cite on how to learn to write. px3. From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Feb 9 03:52:56 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:52:56 -0800 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? In-Reply-To: <000901c3ee8b$d7fd4370$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: Any more of these, and Mr. Clements is bound to think I'm _after_ 'im. The Times, Friday, Jan 14, 1898; pg. 10; Issue 35413; col E Mr. Balfour On Naval Defence. NAVALIS.. Category: Letters to the Editor How crowded transports are to be protected against such a force, handled as it would be by young officers of the Royal Navy, I fail to understand. It is, in the late Mr. C. S. Calverley's words, "a thing imagination boggles at." The Times, Tuesday, Apr 16, 1901; pg. 7; Issue 36430; col C People in this country who pay any attention Category: Editorials/Leaders This may or may not be the case, though the spectacle of SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN and SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT carried out of the house by policeman, like MR. FLAVIN and MR. TULLY, is something "the imagination boggles at." [quotes in the original] And so on... At 01:38 PM 2/8/04, you wrote: >And, after a poster at straightdope suggested that Wodehouse used the phrase >"the imagination boggles" frequently, I searched newspaperarchive. > >There was a 1908 cite for "imagination boggles." ------------------------------------------------------------- James L. Knight, MLIS, jlk at 3geckos.net (Friday Harbor, WA) james.knight at thomson.com (Thomson/Gale - West Region) http://3geckos.net From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 04:07:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:07:09 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: [Any more of these, and Mr. Clements is bound to think I'm _after_ 'im.] Not really. I envy you your Times link, though. I've tried to find a library testing it for free that I could hijack, but no luck so far. Keep up the good work. SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 04:23:59 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:23:59 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Alice Faber wrote: > Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> ...in any case, there's a formula here: >> The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >> (conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). >> > > Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" > (as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? my intuition is that this is a separate figure ("eat, eat, eat"), but there's probably been some cross-fertilization here. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 04:48:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:48:46 -0500 Subject: Glat Kosher (1967) Message-ID: "Glat" Kosher appears to be earlier than "Glatt" Kosher. July 1963, JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. XXV, no. 3, "CHURCH," STATE AND _KASHRUTH_: SOME HIDDEN DIMENSIONS OF PLURALISM by Samuel Krislow, pages 174-185. (A nice discussion of _kashruth_ laws in America, but "glatt kosher" is not here--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 1530 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 1967. p. 412 (1 page): GLAT KOSHER under (u) supervision (...) MAYFLOWER Hotel/Motel/Spa Boardwalk at Tennessee Ave. ATLANTIC CITY, N. J. June 1969, THE JEWISH SPECTATOR, pg. 19, col. 1: _The Glat Kosher Borscht Belt_ _By ELKANAH SCHWARTZ (...) RABBI SCHWARTZ is Assistant Editor of _Orthodox Jewish Life_ and the author of "American Life: Shtetl Style," a collection of short stories. GLAT KOSHER refers to meat in connection with which no ritual doubts-and-questions have arisen, due to anatomical abnormalities or lesions in the vital organs of the animal. HOLOV YISROEL refers to milk from the herd of a Jewish farmer, or to milk from non-Jewish farmers under Jewish supervision from the cow to the door of the Orthodox consumer. (CATNYP) Call # *PBD (Jewish life. Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America) v. 14-41;Oct. 1946-autumn 1974; [n.s. v.1]- v. 5, no. 4, summer 1975-winter 1981-1982. Title Jewish life (Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America) Jewish life. Imprint [New York Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America] (This was titled ORTHODOX JEWISH LIFE from June 1947-June 1958. It was also titled ORTHODOX UNION. This appears to be the place for the earliest "glatt kosher" citation. I'll have NYPL time maybe this Saturday, if I'm not comatose by then--ed.) From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Feb 9 05:02:51 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:02:51 -0600 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: A single example from German: BKA (Bundes Kriminal Amt - Federal Crimal Office, the FBI equivalent, minus the counter espionage component) is sometimes renedered a Beamter Keine Ahnung (officials with no ideas.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages? From pds at VISI.COM Mon Feb 9 07:04:02 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:04:02 -0600 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <20040209033421.512475CB8@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2/8/2004 10:33 PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >Altoona(PA) Mirror, 1906. Talking about piano playing. > >"practice, practice, practice." Isn't this also the punchline to the joke that begins, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 08:53:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 03:53:24 EST Subject: Amate Painting Message-ID: "Amate" painting is not in the OED. Tyler Cowen, an economics professor at George Mason University, is writing a book on amate painting and owns perhaps the world's largest collection. Cowen's personal web page is at: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/ His web page on amates: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/amate2.htm Concordance of Amate Painters The following directory offers some pictures of amates, and paintings, in my collection (a few are borrowed images). I have about 200 museum-quality amates, which I believe is the biggest quality collection in the world, and many paintings by artists from the area. Here is only a small sample of the creativity and diversity of amate art. I am planning to write about the amate arts in more detail in the future, this page will offer periodic updates on those writings. For now, there are three excellent books on amate. Jonathan Amith’s The Amate Tradition (La Tradicion del Amate is the formal title, if you are doing a search) is in both English and Spanish. Catherine Good’s Haciendo la Lucha is in Spanish only. Plus there is Gobi Stromberg’s El Universo del Amate. Amith’s you can get from Amazon, I highly recommend it, it is simply great and has wonderful color plates. The others are harder to find. Cowen himself is a very interesting person. His (Washington Post & Chowhound.com recommended) web site on the ethnic cuisine of the Washington, DC area is excellent: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/ethnicnewest.htm According to a profile in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 7 February 2003, pg. E1:: At 40, Cowen is something of an odd duck in his field -- a statistical outlier, as an economist might put it. He grew up in suburban Hillsdale, N.J., and might well come by his lifelong optimism genetically (his father ran a chamber of commerce). At 14 or 15, he was the chess champion of all New Jersey, and as an undergraduate he attended George Mason, a hotbed of libertarian social and political thinking that happens to be (shhh!) a state university. After Harvard, Cowen taught at UC Irvine before returning to George Mason, where, single and childless (he's about to marry a Russian emigre), he found himself with the time and tenure to pursue his interest in global culture. By now he's been to 60 countries, owns thousands of CDs and watches TV only in Spanish, to keep up his language skills. We dined at Brew Burger! He wore Spock ears! We met at Milo's Chess & Chinese (dinner)! But I digress. "Amate" and "painting" has 2,000 Google hits and 54 Google Groups hits. It's gotta be in OED so Tyler will owe me a dinner. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:08:29 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:08:29 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, I'm not so sure this is separate. If so, the cross-fertilization is rampant. Look at defense, defense, defense which is surely both "The most important thing in this game is" and "How can we win this game?" (In deference to Alice, only 1700 or so hits for defense; far below her practice hits.) dInIs >On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Alice Faber wrote: > >>Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> >>>...in any case, there's a formula here: >>> The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >>>(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). >>> >> >>Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" >>(as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? > >my intuition is that this is a separate figure ("eat, eat, eat"), but >there's probably been some cross-fertilization here. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:12:32 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:12:32 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <065b01c3eec9$fa54bb40$3b5f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: These were rampant in Eastern Europe in the good old days (an area given more to acronyms and political humor than perhaps any other in the history of the world). On eof my favorites (although maybe you had to be there) was always PPK (Polish Rail Way) which became Polish Wait Way a clear reference to the fact that Mussolini was not in charge of the trains i Poland at that time. dInIs >A single example from German: BKA (Bundes Kriminal Amt - Federal Crimal >Office, the FBI equivalent, minus the counter espionage component) is >sometimes renedered a Beamter Keine Ahnung (officials with no ideas.) >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gerald Cohen" > > Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur >in other languages? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:36:35 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:36:35 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:08 PM -0800 2/8/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed >that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: >"Jobs, jobs, jobs." > >this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most >important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, >location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a >great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on >"location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 >sites listed. > >in any case, there's a formula here: > The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). > >i've been calling this, in my own mind, the Rule of Three, but perhaps >somone has studied it already, and given it a name? has anyone >assembled some collection of instances of the formula? (they are all >over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is >location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest >exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an >exemplar?) > I was collecting these for a while, in connection with my more systematic exploration of the Lexical Clone construction (a.k.a. Doubles, Contrastive Focus Reduplication), as in "No, what I wanted was a {dog dog/salad salad}" or "We're not LIVing together living together". My hypothesis was that the emphatic triple (= 'and nothing else matters') emerged for this function (and I did have a bunch of others, but they didn't reveal anything earthshattering) because the double was pre-empted for the modificational use. Of course, whenever I presented anything on those triples, someone would quote the line from the Lewis Carroll epic poem, The Hunting of the Snark: "What I tell you three times is true". A quick web search indicates that you wouldn't be the first to refer to this pattern as "The Rule of Three". I don't know of any systematic research, though. Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 9 15:16:09 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:16:09 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, location, location." " Notwithstanding the prevalence of the Z, Z, Z formation, I do think that it's relatively recent (perhaps as little as 25 to 40 years old) and that the real estate joke is the original form. It obviously has spread since then. A Google search for "location location location" produces 223,000 hits; a search for "location location location" and "real estate" has 62,300 hits. I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or another form of address. John Baker From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 15:31:05 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:31:05 -0600 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) Message-ID: This is from memory. In Dostoyevsky's _Crime and Punishment_ Marmeladov's wife is distraught at the way things are going and says in the midst of an outburst: "This thrice-accursed life!" That's the exact Russian translation, but of course it isn't smooth English. The translator was up to the task, though, and rendered her statement as "Damn, damn, damn this life!" Gerald Cohen From orinkh at CARR.ORG Mon Feb 9 15:40:20 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:40:20 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: This thread ties up interestingly with the one a few weeks ago that started out being about “third time lucky” (etc.), though the interesting parts are more sociolinguistic than dialectal. In that light, the habit of saying something three times (for effectiveness, luck, or whatever) far predate the modern era — take, for example, the Muslim “quickie” divorce, in which the husband says 3 times “I divorce you,” or the traditional ordination of Buddhist monks, in which a lengthy formula must be chanted three times in succession and without interruption for the ordination to be valid. These don’t really qualify as “rules of three” in the sense that Mr. Zwicky and others are seeking, but I venture that they constitute a related precursor to the convention. Orin Hargraves From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Feb 9 16:09:24 2004 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:09:24 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the culture-side, let's not forget that both Christians and Muslims have special regard for the number 3. Or is it folklore that traditional divorce in Islam is accomplished by the husband (but not the wife) saying "I divorce you" thrice? Karl Menniger's Number Words and Number Symbols is a good source for the linguistics of numbers. Menniger reminds us of the three-ness of "tribal" and "drill' (a cloth), "tribute" and "testament." Apparently there was an arithmetic "rule of three" in mid-15thC ... so we may need to go further back to find the basis of "practice, practice, practice." --On Monday, February 9, 2004 9:31 AM -0600 Gerald Cohen wrote: > This is from memory. In Dostoyevsky's _Crime and Punishment_ > Marmeladov's wife is distraught at the way things are going and says > in the midst of an outburst: "This thrice-accursed life!" That's the > exact Russian translation, but of course it isn't smooth English. > The translator was up to the task, though, and rendered her statement > as "Damn, damn, damn this life!" > > Gerald Cohen _________________________________________ "Practice random acts of intelligence and senseless acts of self-control" From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:13:25 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:13:25 -0800 Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad In-Reply-To: <200402080731.i187VIFK010023@mxu5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, in Vergil's Moretum, the phrase itself comes from a description of grinding the salad ingredients together so that they make a single color, not a description of making a single salad out of many ingredients: "... color est e pluribus unus" translated by Joseph H. Mooney "The minor poems of Vergil (Birmingham, 1916) as " ... and out of many / A single colour ..." allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.tvgameshows.net/scoreboard.htm > MONDAY, JAN. 26 > Jeopardy!: Wagering was important going into Final Jeopardy! as champion Lili > Williams and Rob Poodiack each had $12,000 at that point. For the third > straight day, no one came up with the correct final response. > Category: Latin Lingo. Answer: this three-word phrase, familiar in the > U.S., originated in an ancient poem and described assembling foods to make salad. > Correct response: what is E Pluribus Unum? > Williams made the more conservative wager and ended with $6,800 to retain > the title and a two-day total of $15,400. > > JEOPARDY! watcher and ADS member David Shulman spotted this...After this > question, JEOPARDY! host Alex Trebek had one-too-many salads and drove his car > into a ditch. > "E PLURIBUS UNUM," one out of many, is how Virgil described making a > salad. There are many Google hits. > Shulman told me that some restaurants called their salads "E Pluribus > Unum." I checked Newspaperarchive.com. There are 29 hits, but nothing to > indicate a threat to "Caesar." From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Mon Feb 9 16:49:06 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:49:06 -0500 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <001401c3ee97$be8670e0$1cac8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: But "think" follows more sensibly from the first clause, doesn't it? And the use of "think" in the second clause is no more "ungrammatical" than is Doublespeak or Groupthink or any other use of a verb as a noun. At 03:03 PM 2/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: >This is exactly the sort of posts that occurred on Honyaku. Yet I don't >understand why "thing" is any less logical than "the whole nine yards", >"the Big Apple" or "the sun sets/rises". Sure, there might be historical >reasons for such expressions, but I've never had trouble using or >understanding the intent of any of these idioms or "thing". > >As far as "think" being logical, though, it isn't. The unexpected part of >speech is ungrammatical, which makes it witty, though certainly no more >logical. > >I don't see any reason to switch to think any more than to abandon the >illogical "the sun sets/rises". > >Benjamin Barrett > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >On Behalf Of Steve Boatti > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------- > > > >What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got > >another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've > >got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes > >sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with > >another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak > >perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always > >understood it as a clever and sensible statement. > > > >Steve Boatti > >sjb72 at columbia.edu > > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:30:28 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:30:28 -0500 Subject: A Great Life Message-ID: >From an article on "Night Life on Broadway", Variety, December 25, 1914, p. 7, col. 3, sketching the round of cabaret-hopping that ends at dawn: . . . the regulars only believe they are living, in the often heard Broadway proverb: "A short life and a merry one" and that other bright light lure, "It's a great life if you don't weaken." I see that the latest Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has a citation from 1919, and that Eric Partridge's Dictionary of Catchphrases assigns it to World War I, without a specific date. I did not check books of proverbs. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:43:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:43:45 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) In-Reply-To: <202882.1076324964@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2004, at 8:09 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > ...Karl Menniger's Number Words and Number Symbols is a good source > for the > linguistics of numbers. Menniger reminds us of the three-ness of > "tribal" > and "drill' (a cloth), "tribute" and "testament." Apparently there was > an > arithmetic "rule of three" in mid-15thC ... so we may need to go > further > back to find the basis of "practice, practice, practice." this discussion, interesting though it is, has veered significantly from my original query. (i know, e-discussions are like that.) i have no doubt that a special regard for the number 3 influenced the way the originator(s) of "location location location" framed this emphatic utterance, but the fact is that it did become a formula, which was then extended to other contexts than real estate and to utterances using expressions other than the word "location". the formula/figure/trope has a life of its own, as a convention of language use, and that life was what i was inquiring about. it's much the same with syntactic constructions: aspects of a construction often "make sense" from a semantic or pragmatic point of view (more and more sense as we get back to the historical origins of the construction), but from the point of view of the speaker of the language they are simply the conventional ingredients of the construction. it makes sense that the english passive uses the auxiliary verb BE in combination with a past participle, but now those are just aspects of form that are paired with a particular meaning (a meaning that is distinct from the meaning of the predicate adjectival construction that served as the historical source for the passive). similarly, it makes sense that some languages use the subjunctive mood for imperative sentences, but speakers of such languages aren't creatively using the subjunctive to convey a suggestion; they're just taking the subjunctive off the shelf, so to speak, for this purpose. (the processes -- or, perhaps, process -- of grammaticalization of syntactic form and conventionalization of figures are certainly interesting in their own right, and in fact i am very much interested in both, but they're not what i was asking about.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:44:04 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:44:04 -0500 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040209114619.023544e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: My least favorite local bar name was: ThinQTank I insisted on calling it the "Thin Q Tank." (It folded after about 3 months.) Bethany From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:58:55 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:58:55 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2004, at 7:16 AM, John Baker wrote: > I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure > Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about > the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money > in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, > location, location." " well, you can pretty much bet that someone can improve on a citation that has "hackneyed" in it! but this is a start. > Notwithstanding the prevalence of the Z, Z, Z formation, I do > think that it's relatively recent (perhaps as little as 25 to 40 years > old) and that the real estate joke is the original form... my guesses too, but intuitions about age of expressions are notoriously undependable (in both directions), as are intuitions about original forms (note the current discussion about thinks and things), so i'd like to see some real data. > I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the > same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying > things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, > location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is > often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or > another form of address. yes. i think that emphatic repetition generally can involve doubling *or* tripling. i can say "eat, eat, eat" or "eat, eat" with pretty much the same effect, but if i said "the two most important things in the michigan election are jobs and jobs", you'd figure out what i was getting at, but it would take you more work than if i'd used the figure with tripling, because you'd recognize that figure automatically. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 9 18:22:17 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:22:17 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Actually, it's surprising just how often an earliest recorded use (or at least the earliest recorded use that we can find) refers to a phrase as "old," so the article's use of "hackneyed" proves little. What we see is that there were no recorded uses in the Westlaw database before 1984, but nine that year. That suggests that it was around that time that the real estate joke was widely dispersed. Of course, once you've heard the joke a few times, it sounds hackneyed, even if in fact it is relatively new. While the expression could be as recent as 1984, it could also be (and probably is) older, perhaps much older, failing to show up in databases because it was geographically limited or had mostly oral use. Donald Trump, who is associated with several of the early uses, may have been a factor in its popularization. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 12:59 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rule of Three On Feb 9, 2004, at 7:16 AM, John Baker wrote: > I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure > Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about > the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money > in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, > location, location." " well, you can pretty much bet that someone can improve on a citation that has "hackneyed" in it! but this is a start. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 18:40:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:40:37 -0800 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207113341.02efcb00@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 3:32 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote to the ADS list: > HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: > "1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of > homosexuality)." > from ca. 1942-5 > AND > "2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." > from 1953. the *only* sense i'm familiar with is #1, and i'm someone who's actually had a number of partners in anal intercourse and knows lots of others who have, so it's not like the concept of sense #2 is foreign to me. i could *understand* "asshole buddy" to have sense #2 if i heard it in the appropriate context, but then it would just be a novel instance of english noun-noun compounding (not at all the sort of thing a dictionary should be recording). the point is that, for me, it's not a fixed expression in sense #2. now, "fuckbuddy" *is* such a fixed expression, and in fact, in my experience, *its* meaning isn't fully compositional, since fuckbuddies don't actually have to engage in anal intercourse, merely have sex with one another (according to their definitions of what counts as having sex). so, like doug wilson, i'm really dubious about the HDAS's guess about the history: > Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: > "1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence is > lacking]" "asshole buddy" surely is a cruder parallel to "bosom buddy/friend". both are figures in which emotional closeness is connoted by the attribution of physical closeness. anuses don't figure in being an asshole buddy any more than pectorals and nipples figure in being a bosom friend. doug wilson has the same recollections about the senses as i do, and asks about stress: > I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the > same > stress? over on the OUTIL mailing list, brent de chene has discussed stress, claiming that sense 1 has modifier stress (afterstress, heavier stress on the second element: asshole BUDDY) but that sense 2 has (or, as i would put it, would have) compound stress (forestress, heavier stress on the first element, as in "fuckbuddy": ASSHOLE buddy). i'm pretty sure i've never heard sense 1 with anything except forestress, and i judge "asshole BUDDY" to be a novel modifier-modified combination with the meaning (sense #3) 'buddy who's an asshole, a jerk'. but i'm not going to deny that some speakers might have afterstress for sense #1; after all, "bosom buddy/friend" has afterstress, and many noun-noun compounds do not have "compound stress" ("cherry LANE" vs. "CHERRY street"), while others have variant pronunciations ("CHERRY pie" *and* "cherry PIE" -- example courtesy of leonard bloomfield). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Feb 9 20:46:17 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:46:17 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, I yield. BTW, the book Homo Ludens, by Johan Huizenga, is good; I read it for a course with Walter Ong 35 years ago or more (we called our field Onglish, of course--more word play). Don Nilsson at Arizona still does this stuff too, I believe. At 09:19 PM 2/8/2004 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:46 PM -0500 2/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are >>personal initials now to be antedated? > > > The humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for is a >legitimate subject of linguistic interest. HMO's (How Many Others?), >TWA (Teeny-Weeny Airlines) are two that come to mind; more examples >were once given in a series of ads-l messages about three years ago. >A compilation of these items into an article might be worthwhile. >Anyone interested? > > We deal here with humor/playfulness in language, and Allen Walker >Read once gave a linguistic address in which he emphasized this >feature. The address was published and I have it somewhere in my >office. I remember that he quotes someone as referring to man (woman >too, of course) as homo ludens--Man at Play." > > Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for >occur in other languages? > >Gerald Cohen From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Feb 9 22:53:02 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:53:02 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <200402090501.i1951Tvq023341@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I've been trying to remember a citation since I saw this thread, and I've finally got it. Robert A. Heinlein, _Stranger In a Strange Land_, 1961. "'She did everything but a nautch dance [...]'": one character speaking of another character's seductive behavior. (Sorry, no page number. The quote is from memory; I could find the page in a couple of minutes if I had the book here.) That was the first time I saw the word, and AFAIR the only place I've ever seen it till this thread. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 00:04:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:04:58 -0500 Subject: Go Figure (1964); Glatt Kosher (1965); Kosher Salt (1947); Mavin (1950) Message-ID: Greetings from the Jewish Theological Seminary Library, at Broadway and West 122 Street. I haven't been here in many years; the NYPL Jewish Division is usually sufficient. But the NYPL is closed Mondays. Still haven't found a Jewish American Princess, but I'm still looking. JFK--Don't forget our airport here, called JFK. Surprisingly, there isn't any popular slang on that. RIVIERA SALAD--The header should have been 1961, not 1968. -------------------------------------------------------- GO FIGURE August 1964, JEWISH DIGEST, pg. 74: GO FIGURE IT OUT! A very Orthodox rabbi in the East New York section of Brooklyn has a "Passover apartment" which he maintains all year round for Passover use only. On the eve of Passover, the rabbi closes his regular home and moves into the Passover apartment where no bread is ever allowed. (Two more stories like this--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MAVIN (MEVIN) I had posted November 1950. The same HEINZ OVEN-BAKED BEANS ad is in JEWISH LIFE, September-October 1950, back cover pg. 106: A "Meichel" for a "Mevin." -------------------------------------------------------- KOSHER SALT See ADS-L archives. I had posted 1950 from the NEW YORK TIMES. October 1947, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 102: KASHRUTH (U) DIRECTORY (U is not in OED??--ed.) (...) Consumers are advised to look for the Hechsher or (U) seal of Kashruth approval on the labels of food products. Pg. 103, col. 2: SALT (U) Certified Kosher Coarse Salt Chippewa Kosher Salt Diamond Crystal Salt -------------------------------------------------------- RUGGELACH/RUGELLACH/RUGELACH/RUGALACH How can you search for these things electronically when you don't know all the spellings? Add this one. June 1969, JEWISH LIFE, "THE GASTRIC JEWS: A story about a campus in Iowa," pg. 15, col. 1: Dr. and Mrs. (also Dr.) Lohman (Classics and Romantic Literature) purred when they saw the blintzes and the nut-and-raisin filled _rogelach_ Ruth served with the coffee. (Pg. 31, col. 2--ed.) She sat down and wept. "And being Jewish doesn't mean having a taste for bagels and lox!" -------------------------------------------------------- GLATT KOSHER Of course, JEWISH LIFE volumes for the years 1962, 1963, 1964, and part of 1965 are not on the shelf here. Of course. That would be too easy. November-December 1965, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 56 ad: WALDMAN HOTEL STRICTLY KOSHER CUISINE Only GLATT MEATS served in the WALDMAN Manner January-February 1966, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 28, col. 2: The kosher pizza shop of "Noah Zark" is where the knitted yarmulkas and the girls who knitted them congregate,... (Pg. 29, col. 1--ed.) Between them are, ironically, a Shomer Shabboth supermarket, a Shomer Shabboth bakery, and a glatt kosher take-home-complete-meal store. Years ago such luxuries were unknown on the East Side. Shopping had to be done from pushcarts. Kosher baking, cooking, and eating were home activities then. Today, next door to the Forward is a glatt kosher restaurant. March-April 1967, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 72, col. 2 ad: Schechter & Hirsch's CARIBBEAN KOSHER HOTELS Strickly Kosher Meals Only Glatt Not Gebruckte Food & Shmura Matzo (Back to looking for a princess--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 10 01:02:49 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:02:49 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Sheesh! Can't Barry get ANY respect around here? What is he, chopped liver?! Jesse suggested(correctly) that Barry addressed this in a previous posting. >From a december posting of his, "4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location." I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining a classified ad saying: <> So "The Donald" wasn't in on the origins. SC From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 01:41:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <74385C56-5B2F-11D8-980D-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >... over on the OUTIL mailing list, brent de chene has discussed stress, >claiming that sense 1 has modifier stress (afterstress, heavier stress >on the second element: asshole BUDDY) I think he was quoting me (he was kind enough to send me a copy), and this is how I've heard it most of the time ... but there are of course occasions when first-word stress would appear regardless: e.g., "They're not just buddies, they're close/bosom/asshole buddies." >i'm pretty >sure i've never heard sense 1 with anything except forestress, and i >judge "asshole BUDDY" to be a novel modifier-modified combination with >the meaning (sense #3) 'buddy who's an asshole, a jerk'. but i'm not >going to deny that some speakers might have afterstress for sense #1; Surely some do, or did (I don't remember hearing this expression much [if at all] in the last ten years or so). And it's true as I recall that "asshole buddy" meaning "good buddy" sounds the same as "asshole buddy" meaning "buddy who's an asshole". In some cases I haven't been able to tell which was intended. Quite often it's plural and more clear: "Me and him, we're asshole buddies." First-word stress would be predicted by my speculative derivation, and I speculate that this is the original stress. Arnold Zwicky's experience tends to remove one relative implausibility. What is the experience of others? And from when/where? I have seen sense 2 (referring to anal intercourse) in print now and then. I feel that it would be unlikely (not impossible) as a lexical item in the absence of sense 1 which I believe is probably primary. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 10 02:08:22 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:08:22 -0600 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order Message-ID: At 8:02 PM -0500 2/9/04, Sam Clements wrote: >Sheesh! Can't Barry get ANY respect around here? What is he, chopped liver?! ... I've never understood the derogatory reference to chopped liver in the phrase (with slight variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" Well prepared chopped liver is always tasty, and very well prepared chopped liver is delicious, a culinary delight. Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 02:54:56 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:54:56 -0500 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? Probably the cholesterol. (^_^) -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 03:25:20 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:25:20 -0500 Subject: general counsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Catherine Aman wrote: > Any suggestions on how to track down the first instances of use of the term > "general counsel" (which is now have rank pulled upon it by "chief legal > officer")? The Chicago Legal Times III. 65 (1889) has the following: "In 1885, he was made the General Attorney of the Company, which position he now holds, Hon. William C. Goudy being the General Counsel." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 04:02:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:02:38 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <001901c3ef71$9b7d02f0$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining > a classified ad saying: > > < The three things to look for when you buy a home.>> Can you give the newspaper title and date for this? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Feb 10 04:05:08 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:05:08 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:02:38PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > > > I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining > > a classified ad saying: > > > > < > The three things to look for when you buy a home.>> > > Can you give the newspaper title and date for this? >From Barry's original post, as found in the archives: --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION A good test of the search engine. I also tried "boola boola" and "boula boula." 4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 10 04:18:14 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:18:14 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: 22 Nov 1956 _Van Nuys(CA) Valley News_ 4-D (The classified pages) Location/Location/Location [header for ad] <> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 05:54:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:54:48 EST Subject: Rule of Three (location location location) Message-ID: "ROGELACH" CORRECTION--That "Gastric Jews" article was from JEWISH CURRENTS, not JEWISH LIFE. SHIT HAPPENS + HUSTLER--I thought that HUSTLER magazine would be a good place to look for "shit happens." Either the ads or the copy might have had it. The NYPL catalog says it has those years in the 1980s, but somehow the two years I requested weren't on the shelf. Nothing is easy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION In a message dated 2/9/2004 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 22 Nov 1956 _Van Nuys(CA) Valley News_ 4-D > > (The classified pages) > > Location/Location/Location [header for ad] > > <> This is curious. According to Ancestry.com, the VALLEY NEWS (Van Nuys, CA) was just updated on 1-29-2004. (My long-forgotten "location location location" post was in December.) This is the description: Description: The Valley News newspaper was located in Van Nuys, California. This database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the following years: 1966-67, and 1973. Can someone check out the following? (I can't open up the database on this home computer--where I am still the Addams County Historical Society.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 4/12/1930 ...LOCATION." At Long Foster we feel there are THREE THINGS which are important to anyone.....real estate business which goes "There are THREE THINGS which are important about any.....property: LOCATION, LOCATION, AND.. Frederick, Maryland Saturday, April 12, 1930 532 k (According to www.longandfoster.com, the company was founded in 1968. This cannot be from 1930--ed.) Van Nuys News - 6/10/1956 ...at Two 3 bedroom homes. Reseda VAN NUYS LOCATION. Fireplace, patios, BBQ, fenced.....Trees. Best LOCATION. THE REALTY HOUSE 5818 VAN NUYS Bl. ST 6-7360 Open weekdays 'til 9 p.....With Chavin 4415 Ventura ST 9-0331 11-VAN NUYS District 11-VAN NUYS Distric The BEST.....2-BEDROOM CARPETED We repeat-LOCATION LOCATION, LOCATION. charming home with big.. Van Nuys, California Sunday, June 10, 1956 849 k Valley News - 11/22/1956 ...Excellent LOCATION. Asking VACANT CLOSE IN VAN NUYS. only down. 2-bedroom and den Large.....CHOICE LOCATION NEAR Kester elementary and VAN NUYS junior high schools. Just 9 months.....lo volume business. Write r. S. Box 237 VAN NUYS Nfews, VAN NUYS. CASH FOR YOUR EQUITY.....Ave. ST 6-1860. Eves. ST 0-0053 LOCATION LOCATION 'LOCATION The 3 things to look for.. Van Nuys, California Thursday, November 22, 1956 868 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 08:26:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:26:51 EST Subject: Foodblog (2002); OT: Food Jokes & Time Warner Center Message-ID: FOODBLOG These are popping up everywhere! I can't read them all! I don't even want to read them all! Go to www.sautewednesday.com and click on the "fooodblog" link. Here's the earliest use of the word on Google Groups. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Food Blogs MSNBC's Bloggspotting column of 11/27 featured the best of food blogs, including sites with links to more for those who can't get enough of what other people ... rec.food.cooking - Dec 8, 2002 by Curly Sue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: FOOD JOKES & TIME WARNER CENTER TIME WARNER CENTER--I took a walk around. Yes, it's got some restaurants, but the NEW YORK TIMES really oversold this place. The restaurants don't even have their menus displayed outside. You just don't eat at these restaurants. Yes, there's a large Whole Foods store and a Williams-Sonoma store, but they're both elsewhere in New York as well. Overhyped. FOOD JOKES FROM eGULLET--I've been going through eGullet.com. Here are two food jokes, for the "hot dog" and "sandwich" people out there. I can do a historical search if desired. Posted: Sep 10 2003, 11:37 AM Q:What did the Zen Buddist ask the hot dog vendor? A:Can you make me one with everything?? Posted: Sep 10 2003, 06:34 PM A sandwich walks into a bar and takes a stool. The bartender looks at him and says, "I'm sorry, we don't serve food!" From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 10 09:00:53 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:00:53 -0500 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order In-Reply-To: <200402100255.i1A2tAaK006471@pohl.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: > > Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? A mere guess, but, in context, the comparison may have less to do with taste or nutrition than being inert, compared to a self-assessed overlooked one who can do and say much more, already. Stephen Goranson From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Tue Feb 10 14:27:46 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:27:46 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 Message-ID: I apologize for reviving a dead thread (how's that for an image?), but I mentioned this discussion to Wayne's General Counsel and discovered a deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' This is similar to another deliberate change in University terminology, from 'dormitory' to 'residence hall'. If you have any contact with the people in Student Life you will be beaten over the head about the fact that 'a dormitory is where you sleep, but a residence hall is where you live'. Language engineering on a small scale. Geoff From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Feb 10 14:39:19 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040210092235.0264e320@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:27:46AM -0500, Geoff Nathan wrote: > I apologize for reviving a dead thread (how's that for an image?), but I > mentioned this discussion to Wayne's General Counsel and discovered a > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' A few more decades, and they might just decide to adopt the British "solicitor" and "barrister" distinction. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 15:18:50 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:18:50 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040210092235.0264e320@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Geoff Nathan wrote: > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 10 15:32:15 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:32:15 -0500 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <200402100501.AAA10870@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The one example of this kind of humorous reinterpretation that I know of from another language, though it's not as good as some of the others we've had, is of the 'A' sign to be found on the back of some French cars (a red capital 'A' on a white circular sticker). It actually stands for 'Apprenti', 'Learner [Driver]', but it's often reinterpreted as 'Abruti' ('stupid') or 'Arriéré' ('[educationally] backward', with a play on the fact that 'marche arrière' = 'reverse gear' on a car). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 16:01:09 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:01:09 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: re Gerald Cohen's question, "does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages?" In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the monarch was both "kaiser" (of Austria) and "koenig" (of Hungary). There was a rigid protocol involving whether an action or award or whatever derived merely one of these offices, or from both. If the latter, then the abbreviation "k. k." was used (I believe it was in small letters, I'm not sure about the periods). Of course not everybody in the "Dual Monarchy" took this seriously. "k. k." was sometimes interpreted as a pair of German words, which are unknown to me but which refer to excrement. Source---a lecture in 1983 by a European History professor named Marcia Rosenblitz (name probably misspelled). - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 16:05:22 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:05:22 EST Subject: Mars roving Message-ID: MR NASA REQUEST FOR URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP FIRST, I MUST SOLICIT YOUR STRICTEST CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION. THIS IS BY VIRTUE OF ITS NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND 'TOP SECRET'. I AM SURE AND HAVE CONFIDENCE OF YOUR ABILITY AND RELIABILITY TO PROSECUTE A TRANSACTION OF THIS GREAT MAGNITUDE INVOLVING A PENDING TRANSACTION REQUIRING MAXIIMUM CONFIDENCE. WE ARE TOP OFFICIAL OF THE MARTIAN RULING COUNCIL CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL WHO ARE INTERESTED IN IMPORATION OF GOODS INTO OUR COUNTRY WITH FUNDS WHICH ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN THE ARGYRE BASIN. IN ORDER TO COMMENCE THIS BUSINESS WE SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE TO ENABLE US TRANSFER INTO YOUR ACCOUNT THE SAID TRAPPED FUNDS. THE SOURCE OF THIS FUND IS AS FOLLOWS; DURING THE LAST MILITARY REGIME HERE IN MARS, WHERE WE SENT INVADERS TO EARTH DEFEATED BY SOME VIRUS, THE MILITARY OFFICIALS SET UP COMPANIES AND AWARDED THEMSELVES CONTRACTS WHICH WERE GROSSLY OVER-INVOICED IN VARIOUS MINISTRIES. THE PRESENT CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT SET UP A CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL AND WE HAVE IDENTIFIED A LOT OF INFLATED CONTRACT FUNDS WHICH ARE PRESENTLY FLOATING IN THE MARS FIRST NATIONAL BANK READY FOR PAYMENT. HOWEVER, BY VIRTUE OF OUR POSITION AS CIVIL MARTIANS AND MEMBERS OF THIS PANEL, WE CANNOT ACQUIRE THIS MONEY IN OUR NAMES. I HAVE THEREFORE, BEEN DELEGATED AS A MATTER OF TRUST BY MY COLLEAGUES OF THE PANEL TO LOOK FOR AN OVERSEAS PARTNER INTO WHOSE ACCOUNT WE WOULD TRANSFER THE SUM OF US$21,320,000.00(TWENTY ONE MILLION, THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND U.S DOLLARS). HENCE WE ARE WRITING YOU THIS LETTER. WE HAVE AGREED TO SHARE THE MONEY THUS; 1. 20% FOR THE ACCOUNT OWNER 2. 70% FOR US (THE OFFICIALS) 3. 10% TO BE USED IN SETTLING TAXATION AND ALL LOCAL AND EXTRA PLANATERY EXPENSES. IT IS FROM THE 70% THAT WE WISH TO COMMENCE THE IMPORTATION BUSINESS. PLEASE,NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% SAFE AND WE HOPE TO COMMENCE THE TRANSFER LATEST SEVEN (7) BANKING DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE RECEIPT OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION BY MARS-TEL; 1-800-IDIOT, YOUR COMPANY'S SIGNED, AND STAMPED LETTERHEAD PAPER THE ABOVE INFORMATION WILL ENABLE US WRITE LETTERS OF CLAIM AND JOB DESCRIPTION RESPECTIVELY. THIS WAY WE WILL USE YOUR COMPANY'S NAME TO APPLY FOR PAYMENT AND RE-AWARD THE CONTRACT IN YOUR COMPANY'S NAME. WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THIS BUSINESS WITH YOU AND SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY IN THIS TRANSATION. PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER USING THE ABOVE MARS COM NUMBER. I WILL SEND YOU DETAILED INFORMATION OF THIS PENDING PROJECT WHEN I HAVE HEARD FROM YOU. YOURS FAITHFULLY, $%ab%^!2 (source unknown. distributed by Michael Walsh of Johns Hopkins University, who does not state whether he composed it) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:05:56 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:05:56 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <200402100501.i1A51Uvq002796@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: John Baker writes: >>> I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or another form of address. <<< I'll second that completely. -- Mark A. Mandel (grown up in NYC and heard that plenty of times) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:26:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:26:02 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <194.249532dd.2d5a5a45@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0500 2/10/04, James A. Landau wrote: >re Gerald Cohen's question, "does the humorous reinterpreting of what >initials stand for occur in other languages?" > >In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the monarch was both "kaiser" (of Austria) and >"koenig" (of Hungary). There was a rigid protocol involving whether an >action or award or whatever derived merely one of these offices, or >from both. If >the latter, then the abbreviation "k. k." was used (I believe it was in small >letters, I'm not sure about the periods). > >Of course not everybody in the "Dual Monarchy" took this seriously. "k. k." >was sometimes interpreted as a pair of German words, which are unknown to me >but which refer to excrement. Are you sure "k.k." was interpreted as a German initialism? More likely, I'd think, as "caca". (isn't the letter _k_ pronounced [ka] in German?) larry > >Source---a lecture in 1983 by a European History professor named Marcia >Rosenblitz (name probably misspelled). > > - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:33:21 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:33:21 -0800 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <1076427135.4028f97f3f4db@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I thought I remembered that this sort of word play had been common in communist-era Czechoslovakia, but all my resident expert could come up with was this: "Yeah--though I can't think of any off-hand, except one: Somebody in my grade school writing "Long live the U.S.A!" on the wall of the school; when questioned by the principal, he claimed it meant "Udatna sovetska armada" -- the 'brave Soviet Army.'" Not really the same, but I thought I'd pass it along for a chuckle, at least. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:32 AM -0500 Damien Hall wrote: > The one example of this kind of humorous reinterpretation that I know of > from another language, though it's not as good as some of the others > we've had, is of the 'A' sign to be found on the back of some French cars > (a red capital 'A' on a white circular sticker). It actually stands for > 'Apprenti', 'Learner [Driver]', but it's often reinterpreted as 'Abruti' > ('stupid') or 'Arriéré' ('[educationally] backward', with a play on the > fact that 'marche arrière' = 'reverse gear' on a car). > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Feb 10 16:57:54 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:57:54 -0800 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Fred Shapiro : > On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' > spend > > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' > > I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely > used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. > > Fred Shapiro Yes, especially since the technical distinction (not widely observed in general usage) is: lawyer: one who has been admitted to the bar counselor: one who advises another, both in and out of court, not necessarily a lawyer (but in practice almost always is) counselor-at-law: a counselor who is also a lawyer attorney: one who has the authority to act on another's behalf, again not necessarily a lawyer attorney-at-law: an attorney who is also a lawyer In general usage, they are all synonyms. -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Feb 10 17:22:50 2004 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:22:50 -0800 Subject: Cash and Kerry Message-ID: News to me: Leigh Weimer's column in today's San Jose Mercury News notes that Germany's Hamburger Abendblatt newspaper online had this description of Sen. John Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry: "Cash and Kerry" -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 18:10:05 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:10:05 -0500 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <1740727122.1076402001@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: At 8:33 AM -0800 2/10/04, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I thought I remembered that this sort of word play had been common in >communist-era Czechoslovakia, but all my resident expert could come up with >was this: > >"Yeah--though I can't think of any off-hand, except one: Somebody in my >grade school writing "Long live the U.S.A!" on the wall of the school; when >questioned by the principal, he claimed it meant "Udatna sovetska armada" >-- the 'brave Soviet Army.'" > >Not really the same, but I thought I'd pass it along for a chuckle, at >least. > >Peter Mc. > As someone else was saying earlier, the natives of Eastern Bloc countries during Soviet hegemony were especially renowned for their exploitation of hidden meanings, puns, and ambiguities. My favorite example concerns the infamous "Palace of Culture" in Warsaw, a not particularly welcome "gift" from Stalin to the Polish people, prompting this classic (if perhaps apocryphal) exchange: Western tourist: "You must be very grateful to the Russians for this gift." Polish guide: "Yes, we must." Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 10 21:30:12 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:30:12 -0800 Subject: New Orleans Message-ID: We were in New Orleans last week and I tried to send the following information, but our computer went into a coma. We went on a city tour, very interesting but who knows how accurate. The tour guide presented several tidbits I thought I'd forward here. 1) The old steamships plying their trade along the Mississippi had a valve to relieve the pressure. Thus, "letting off steam." 2) Early passenger ships served fresh pork. Not wanting the paying passengers to have to smell the pigs, they were washed before being loaded on board. The dirty water was called "hogwash." 3) Poor folk living down (or up) river would make primitive rafts and propel them along with stripped tree limbs/branches called "riffs." Thus "here comes the riff raff (raft?)." 4) An early church ordered some statues. When one arrived, the nuns didn't recognize what Saint it was supposed to be. One of the sisters read the packing crate, which said "Expedite." Thus the early New Orleans worship (?) of St. Expedite. (I love this one, and figure that's who you're supposed to pray to for swift deliveries and minimal red tape in all one's endeavors.) Rima From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 22:43:23 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:43:23 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms Message-ID: I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them in poker all the time (Seattle). Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? Best regards Benjamin Barrett From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 23:12:15 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:12:15 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <004e01c3f027$4dbf7690$5daa8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: >I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >in poker all the time (Seattle). I think "[full] boat" for "full house" has been conventional everywhere I've played (midwest mostly). I am absolutely sure it was more common than "full house" among my poker buddies in Wisconsin in the 1980's. I wonder: why "boat"? "Royal family" I'm not familiar with, but then a royal flush doesn't appear all that often except in certain forms of poker with which I have little experience. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 10 23:32:05 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:32:05 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman"--thanks; two more messages Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0800 2/10/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >Dalit Berman looked it up and found: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:10:58 +0200 >From: Dalit Berman > >It appears in Harkavy's dictionary, under "beytzimer" >(American Yiddish for "Irishman") a suitable name for >someone who comes from "the land of the eggs" (ayerland). My thanks to Sarah Bunin Benor for for checking on this. Also, I've received two more messages, which I now pass along: 1) [e-mail from Leonard Zwilling (zwilling at wiscmail.wisc.edu)]: I haven't been following this thread (if there is one) but if someone hasn't already informed you (or the list) this question was discussed in the English language Forward a month or so ago in Philologos' column. As I recall P said that this had little or no currency and his conclusion re the etymology was as that reported to Bunin-Benor by her friend. ... 2) [e-mail from Mikhl Herzog (mherzog at bestweb.net)]: Why "phonetic matching"? _beytsimer_, in its Central Yiddish pronunciation _baytsimer_ 'Irishman', from the Central Yiddish _ayer_ 'eggs', 'testicles'. Remember the Jewish lady who plunked herself down on a gentleman's lap; "Lady, you're raising my ire", he said. "Oy", she replied, "a galitsyaner". Mikhl herzog >At 11:06 AM -0800 2/6/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 >>From: Sarah Bunin Benor >>To: jewish-languages at jewish-languages.org >>Subject: Server, "beitza," seal >> >>...Here's an interesting anecdote. A friend came across the word "beitza" >>(Heb. 'egg') as a name for a non-Jew in Ireland. He was told that it comes >>from Yiddish "eyer" ('eggs') through phonetic matching with "ire" >>('Irish'). ... > ******** Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 11 02:41:28 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:41:28 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman"--Message about the Forward article Message-ID: My thanks to Joseph Lauer (josephlauer at hotmail.com) for this helpful message: > > The Philologos column ("Luck of the Eye-er-ish") discussing >"beitzemer" >> was published in the October 10, 2003 issue of the Forward. >> Its URL is >> http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.10.10/arts4.philologos.html >> Joseph I. Lauer > > Brooklyn, New York > Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 04:29:58 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:29:58 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <004e01c3f027$4dbf7690$5daa8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0800 2/10/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >in poker all the time (Seattle). > >Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? > Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically in 7-card games. Larry From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Feb 11 04:34:31 2004 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:31 +1000 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: I think it's generally acknowledged that loss of -ing and -ed in prenominal modifiers is a US-inspired phenomenon: dive tender, finish line, can fruit, etc. In Australia there appears to be a bifurcation between "frypan" and "frying pan". The latter is a skillet; the former an electric one, perhaps from a product name supplied by the manufacturer of the first popular such product. Many Australian speakers, though, deny such a distinction and use one term or the other for both implements. I note that MW has "frying pan" as the head entry. AmSpeech (v38, 1963), according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Feb 11 05:27:36 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:27:36 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." "Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. SC From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 11 13:34:07 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:34:07 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <200402101518.APQ44294@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 10:18 AM 2/10/2004, you wrote: >I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely >used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. > >Fred Shapiro I agree, Fred, but then, prescriptive rules rarely make much sense. Viz. 'hopefully'. Geoff From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:16:25 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:16:25 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <000501c3f05f$c3041590$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:21:50 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:50 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In an earlier life which apparently far outstrips Larry's (regionally), I have heard "(full) boat" everywhere I have played the game and never heard "royal family," even in the silly games where they occur with absurd frequency. dInIs >At 2:43 PM -0800 2/10/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>?I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >>for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >>in poker all the time (Seattle). >> >>Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? >> >Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite >general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair >hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically >in 7-card games. > >Larry From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:44:32 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:44:32 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) and may have an echo of it in my head. dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) Sam Clements said: according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." "Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:49:41 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:49:41 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro linguistics class. Dennis R. Preston said: >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > >Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 15:43:51 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:43:51 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses 'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. Fritz >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro linguistics class. Dennis R. Preston said: >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > >Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:12:21 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:12:21 -0600 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <0HSW00ATRKO87U@smtp3.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: DARE's maps show that "frying pan" is "widespread except in the West Midland" and that "frypan" is "chiefly Atlantic, Inland South, and West." Granted, things may have changed since the fieldwork was done. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 15:59:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with -ing. At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >Fritz > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >linguistics class. > >Dennis R. Preston said: > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > >use of "frypan". > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > pan" > >nowadays? > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >pan". > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >865-8963 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:23:34 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:23:34 -0500 Subject: Is this nun talk? (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded from my wife, Rene S. Mandel: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:08:57 -0500 Having signed up with and sent a contribution to the Kerry campaign, I now receive pretty regular emails from them. Mary Beth Cahill, his campaign director, always signs her letters "Thank you for all you do." The only other person I have ever known who signed off that way is Sister Marian at Aquinas College. Is this nun talk? Rene From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:36:09 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:36:09 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211105838.01124dc0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I don't think I've used one for 30 years...I almost set my dorm room on fire with one. Beverly Flanigan said: >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >>skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >>Fritz >> >> >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >>that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>linguistics class. >> >>Dennis R. Preston said: >> >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >> >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >> >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > >> >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> > >> > >> > >> >Sam Clements said: >> >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >> >use of "frypan". >> > >> > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying >> pan" >> >nowadays? >> > >> >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >> >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would >>say the same. >> >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> > >> >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >> > >> > >> >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> >pan". >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:43:09 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:43:09 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: me, last night: >>Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >>flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >>games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >>look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >>confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >>Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite >>general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair >>hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically >>in 7-card games. Of course, the relevant brain cells had clicked off when I was trying to remember the last two terms, so I had to ask Barbara Abbott for a prod. The 3-pair hand is a "full gas station", the superfluous double trips (e.g. KKK999) is a "full hotel". The latter is presumably based on Monopoly, although the difference between a house and a hotel is functionally relevant in that game. Larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 17:27:50 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:50 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with -ing. At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >Fritz > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >linguistics class. > >Dennis R. Preston said: > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > >use of "frypan". > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > pan" > >nowadays? > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >pan". > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 17:46:13 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:46:13 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate her/him). At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >Fritz > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a > >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. > >Fritz > > > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >linguistics class. > > > >Dennis R. Preston said: > > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > > >use of "frypan". > > > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > > pan" > > >nowadays? > > > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the > same. > > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > > >pan". > > > >-- > >========================================================================= > ===== > >Alice > Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > 865-6163 x258 > >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 19:30:54 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:30:54 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking about different things? Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate her/him). At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >Fritz > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a > >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. > >Fritz > > > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >linguistics class. > > > >Dennis R. Preston said: > > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > > >use of "frypan". > > > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > > pan" > > >nowadays? > > > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the > same. > > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > > >pan". > > > >-- > >========================================================================= > ===== > >Alice > Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > 865-6163 x258 > >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 20:06:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >about different things? >Fritz Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones "cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are frying pans, never skillets. Larry > >>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >her/him). > >At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >>Fritz >> >> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >>-ing. >> >>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >> >Fritz >> > >> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >> >linguistics class. >> > >> >Dennis R. Preston said: >> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > > >> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >Sam Clements said: >> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >> > >use of "frypan". >> > > >> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying >> > pan" >> > >nowadays? >> > > >> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the >> same. >> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> > > >> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >> > > >> > > >> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> > >pan". >> > >> >-- >> >========================================================================= >> ===== > > >Alice >> Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >> 865-6163 x258 >> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >> >865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 20:18:47 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:18:47 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise it's frying pan. At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >>about different things? >>Fritz > >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >frying pans, never skillets. > >Larry > >> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >>her/him). >> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >>>Fritz >>> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >>>-ing. >>> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >>> gadgets. >>> >Fritz >>> > >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>> >linguistics class. >>> > >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >>> > > >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Sam Clements said: >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >>> prompted the >>> > >use of "frypan". >>> > > >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >>> "frying >>> > pan" >>> > >nowadays? >>> > > >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >>> 1960's I >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the >>> same. >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >>> > > >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >>> > >pan". >>> > >>> >-- >>> >========================================================================= >>> ===== >> > >Alice >>> Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >>> 865-6163 x258 >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >>> >865-8963 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Feb 11 20:50:28 2004 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:50:28 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20General=20Counsel,=20Take?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=203?= Message-ID: "Counselor" vs. "lawyer": This is not a new distinction. Back in the 70s and earlier, many large old prestigious law firms had letterheads reading "Counselors and Attorneys-at-Law." (Some may still do so today.) The distinction was presumably between what we called corporate lawyers (who gave advice) and litigators. I agree with the others on the thread that this is meaningless in that "attorney" or "lawyer" encompass all manner of legal eagles. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Feb 11 22:04:43 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:04:43 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211151735.01f37f40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant menus, perhaps to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise > it's frying pan. > > At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking > >>about different things? > >>Fritz > > > >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the > >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms > >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was > >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area > >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. > >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially > >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In > >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones > >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are > >frying pans, never skillets. > > > >Larry > > > >> > >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> > >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one > >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying > >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a > >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate > >>her/him). > >> > >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in > >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying > >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now > instead? > >>>Fritz > >>> > >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> > >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be > with > >>>-ing. > >>> > >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not > a > >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum > >>> gadgets. > >>> >Fritz > >>> > > >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >>> >linguistics class. > >>> > > >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: > >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and > frying > >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and > a > >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >>> > > > >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >Sam Clements said: > >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch > >>> prompted the > >>> > >use of "frypan". > >>> > > > >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of > >>> "frying > >>> > pan" > >>> > >nowadays? > >>> > > > >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the > >>> 1960's I > >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say > the > >>> same. > >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >>> > > > >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. > IMHO. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >>> > >pan". > >>> > > >>> >-- > >>> > >========================================================================= > >>> ===== > >> > >Alice > >>> Faber > faber at haskins.yale.edu > >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > >>> 865-6163 x258 > >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >>> >865-8963 > > -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 11 22:05:24 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:05:24 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211151735.01f37f40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Beverly Flanigan, following up to Larry Horn, wrote: > That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; > otherwise > it's frying pan. that's my usage exactly, learned from ann daingerfield zwicky some 44 years ago. i still have the wonderful (but *heavy*) cast-iron (or simply iron) skillets handed down through several daingerfield generations (they fit together to make a dutch oven, even), plus a smaller one bought and seasoned a mere 20 years ago. everything else that's fairly shallow and is used for frying, sauteing, etc. is a frying pan. there are no frypans. ann once (like, 45 years ago) had an electric frying pan, so called by her, though i *think* its makers thought it was an electric skillet. this looks like a sofa/couch situation, where people seek to avoid having full synonyms by specializing one or both items, but different people do so in different ways. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 02:35:39 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:35:39 EST Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) Message-ID: LOCATION-LOCATION-LOCATION Sam Clements checked Newspaperarchive.com. The "1930" hit is from 1980. But the earlier 1956 hit that I found in the VALLEY NEWS (Van Nuys, CA) is legit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they really mean it. ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 February 2004, pg. A18, col. 5. I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers George Pataki. ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is no longer required? ABB "BUT BUSH"--2060 Google hits, 243 Google Group hits ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ASTROPRENEURS From the NEW YORK SUN, 10 February 2004, pg. 11, cols. 1-4 headline: "Astropreneurs" Reach for the Stars While NASA Holds Meetings. Not in WordSpy. ASTROPRENEUR--55 Google hits, 2 Google Group hits ASTROPRENEURS--54 Google hits, 16 Google Group hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- PARVE, HECHSHER, (U), GLATT, KOSHER SALT I did a brief check after work and before the NYPL closed. (ORTHODOX) JEWISH LIFE began as the ORTHODOX UNION in 1933. GLATT Spring 1965, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 80 ad: WALDMAN HOTEL Strictly Kosher Cuisine Only Glatt Meats On the Ocean at 43rd Street, Miami Beach (A similar ad in January-February 1964 did NOT have "Glatt." The issue before Spring 1965 is November-December 1964; the issue after is May-June 1965--ed.) HECHSHER August 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 4, col. 1: Up to about nine years ago the Kashruth of articles labeled as "Kosher" were frequently questioned because many a "Hechsher" was obtained for financial consideration. KOSHER SALT August 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 6, col. 1 ad: KOSHER COARSE SALT Independent Salt Company (U) October 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 5 ad: Heinz 57 Varieties pure food products (U). PARVE October 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 8 ad: Sunshine Kosher Crackers are as Kosher and "parve" as they are delicious! (MERRIAM-WEBSTER has 1939 for "pareve" or "parve." OED--"miserable on food"--still has no entry--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Feb 12 02:43:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:43:46 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In Australia there appears to be a bifurcation between "frypan" and >"frying pan". The latter is a skillet; the former an electric one, >perhaps from a product name supplied by the manufacturer of the first >popular such product. Many Australian speakers, though, deny such a >distinction and use one term or the other for both implements. I note >that MW has "frying pan" as the head entry. AmSpeech (v38, 1963), >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted >the use of "frypan". > >Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >"frying pan" nowadays? My jejune impression: "frying pan" is probably more usual (powered or not); "fry-pan" = "frying pan" (powered or not). MW3 and RHUD show this equivalence. Reviewing US newspapers on-line I find "fry-pan" meaning "frying pan" (non-powered) in apparently continuous use from 1852 to 2003. I guess I'd take DARE's word on the regional preferences, and I don't know how statistics may have changed over time. -- Doug Wilson From JNardoni at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 03:12:59 2004 From: JNardoni at AOL.COM (Joseph Nardoni) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:12:59 EST Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This is what he wrote: Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. Thanks. Joseph Nardoni From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Thu Feb 12 03:37:20 2004 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:37:20 -0800 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush) In-Reply-To: <200402120235.i1C2Zr35026657@drizzle.com> Message-ID: > I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers >George Pataki. I remember my grandparents (my family's dyed-in-the-wool Republicans) discussing their ABCs early in the 1996 Republican primaries: [Lamar] Alexander Beats Clinton. This became "anyone but Clinton" after Alexander left the race. Google turns up 45 hits on abc "alexander beats clinton"; Google Groups shows 80. -- James Callan, copywriter "This was a gargantuan leap of logic, in my opinion, but I suppose that's the sort of thing copywriters get paid for." -- Cecil Adams From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Feb 12 03:36:07 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:36:07 -0600 Subject: Is this nun talk? (fwd) Message-ID: My male Army Nurse Corps hospital commander uses it in speech frequently but I have no idea where he got it (pretty fully Americanized Christian originally from India.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:08:57 -0500 Having signed up with and sent a contribution to the Kerry campaign, I now receive pretty regular emails from them. Mary Beth Cahill, his campaign director, always signs her letters "Thank you for all you do." The only other person I have ever known who signed off that way is Sister Marian at Aquinas College. Is this nun talk? Rene From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Feb 12 04:04:07 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:04:07 -0600 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) In-Reply-To: <200402120235.i1C2ZrX04804@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) > > When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they really mean it. > ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 February 2004, pg. > A18, col. 5. > > I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers > George Pataki. > ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is > no longer required? I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 04:06:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:06:04 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What did his message have to do with her message? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Nardoni" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: Offensive vernacular? > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This > is what he wrote: > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. > > Thanks. > > Joseph Nardoni > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 04:08:20 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:08:20 -0500 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) In-Reply-To: <402AA6D7.14683.42F799B@localhost> Message-ID: Jim Parish wrote: >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) >> >> When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they >>really mean it. >> ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 >>February 2004, pg. >> A18, col. 5. >> >> I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers >> George Pataki. >> ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is >> no longer required? > >I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. That rings a bell... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 04:22:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:22:47 -0500 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) Message-ID: I found a cite using newspaperarchive. 1972. "An AGM movement, standing for "Anybody but McGovern." It must have stood for "Anybody but George McGovern." My WAG. SC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Parish" I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. Jim Parish From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 04:25:35 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0500 Subject: Mock Apple Pie (1866); Food Blog (Sept. 2002) Message-ID: MOCK APPLE PIE _mock apple pie._ A pie made with cheese-flavored Ritz racks (introduced by the National Biscuit Company in 1933) and spices to resemble the taste of apple pie. The recipe first appeared during the Depression, when apples became a costly item. --John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). This doesn't make sense. In the Depression, apples were the only things people COULD afford to eat. Way off. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Other 1 -- No Title Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Jul 30, 1867. p. II (3 pages): Dixie Cookery...239 Plain Cake--Tip-top Cake--Mock Cream Pie--Cracker, or Mock Apple Pie; by J. C. S.--Corn Rusk--Salad Mixture--Bavarian Cream--Sweetmeat Cream--Afternoon Cakes (Swiss)--Cranberry Roll--How to tell Good Meat...301 (FEEDING AMERICA)(http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/) MOCK APPLE PIE Jennie June's American Cookery Book: Containing Upwards Of Twelve Hundred Choice And Carefully Tested Receipts; Embracing All The Popular Dishes, And The Best Results Of Modern Science...Also, A Chapter For Invalids, For Infants, One On Jewish Cookery... New York: American News Co., 1870, c1866. Pg. 149: MOCK APPLE PIE. Two soda crackers, one egg, one cup of sugar, and one of water, the juice and yellow rind grated of a lemon. This (is?--ed.) a good recipe for Spring use. MOCK APPLE PIE Presbyterian Cook Book, Compiled By The Ladies Of The First Presbyterian Church, Dayton, Ohio. Dayton, Ohio: Oliver Crook, c1873. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Menus For Today The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 1, 1937. p. 15 (1 page): MOCK APPLE PIE 1 cup flour 1/2 cup butter 1/2 cup of sugar 4 apples sliced Mix the flour, butter and sugar. Peel, core and slice the apples into a buttered baking dish. Cover with the flour mixture. Allow to bake in a moderate oven until the apples are tender. This will be about 45 minutes. --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD BLOG A little earlier than before. (FACTIVA) AN OPEN BOOK ; COMPUTER USERS CREATE WEBLOGS TO SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS WITH THE WORLD Laura T. Ryan Staff writer 1,207 words 19 September 2002 The Post-Standard Syracuse, NY Final E1 English (Copyright 2002) ay back in the 20th century, most folks kept the contents of their diaries barricaded behind lock and key. No more. Now a multitude of meditations - personal, political or just plain peculiar - float in cyberspace for all the world to see. Online diaries (also known as "Web logs," "weblogs" and "blogs") have proliferated at warp speed since they first sprang up in the late 1990s. In less than five years, the number of blogs exploded from just a handful to more than 200,000, according to Rebecca Blood, author of "The Weblog Handbook: Practical Advice on Creating and Maintaining Your Blog." (Perseus Publishing, 2002). (...) But there also are peace blogs, food blogs, comic book blogs, fashion blogs, death blogs, gambling blogs, gardening blogs, knitting blogs, gay blogs, New Age blogs, religion blogs. You get the idea. From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Thu Feb 12 04:35:43 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:35:43 -0800 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <005101c3f11d$88e6ab70$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I'm offended he wrote 'their' instead of 'there'. And the rest is not much better. I hope he doesn't teach English?? Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive vernacular? What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What did his message have to do with her message? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Nardoni" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: Offensive vernacular? > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This > is what he wrote: > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. > > Thanks. > > Joseph Nardoni > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Feb 12 06:14:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:14:13 -0500 Subject: beitza "Irishman" Message-ID: It is stated at several Websites (including MacBain's dictionary) that Old Irish "baitsim" = "baptize" or "baptism" (modern Irish "baist[eadh]" I think). [Pardon me, my ignorance of Irish is virtually total.] I suppose "non-Jewish Irishman" is similar to "Christian Irishman" which is similar to "baptized Irishman" ... at least traditionally? Maybe the testicular connection is just a cute coincidence? -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 05:17:30 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:17:30 -0500 Subject: "tall, dark, and hansome" whence? Message-ID: >From the Straightdope, as usual. I can find a hit on newspaperarchive for 1941, "dark and hansome." But when does the full treatment (tall, dark and hansome) start? And what is meant by "dark?" Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 12 13:16:53 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:16:53 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <200402120501.i1C518vq007165@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>> Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. <<< Plenty of sayings and accents and styles "ha[ve] been ascribed" to people or groups who had nothing to do with them. I vote with you. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Feb 12 14:03:53 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:03:53 -0600 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South Louisiana and New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any such vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild rebuttal to a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). sally donlon Sam Clements wrote: > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What > did his message have to do with her message? > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > email > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > forgot to > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > time. This > > is what he wrote: > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > Guess some > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > Abner. > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > would suggest > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > color. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 14:51:58 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:51:58 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <1076537082.402aa6fb0673c@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: >Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. > >But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant >menus, perhaps >to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. cf. "skillet corn bread", which is indeed baked in a cast-iron skillet. I'm wondering if the complementary distribution is partly phonologically conditioned--"cast-iron frying pan" is just too many syllables compared to "cast-iron skillet". larry > >Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > >> That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise >> it's frying pan. >> >> At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >> >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >> >>about different things? >> >>Fritz >> > >> >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >> >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >> >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >> >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >> >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >> >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >> >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >> >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >> >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >> >frying pans, never skillets. >> > >> >Larry >> > >> >> >> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >> >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >> >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >> >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >> >>her/him). >> >> >> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >> >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >> >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now >> instead? >> >>>Fritz >> >>> >> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be >> with >> >>>-ing. >> >>> >> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >> >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying >>pan--oddly not >> a >> >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >> >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >> >>> gadgets. >> >>> >Fritz >> >>> > >> >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >> >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >> >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >> >>> >linguistics class. >> >>> > >> >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >> >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and >> frying >> >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and >> a >> >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > >>> > > >> >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >Sam Clements said: >> >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >> >>> prompted the >> >>> > >use of "frypan". >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >> >>> "frying >> >>> > pan" >> >>> > >nowadays? >> >>> > > >> >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >> >>> 1960's I >> >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say >> the >> >>> same. >> >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> >>> > > >> >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. >> IMHO. >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> >>> > >pan". >> >>> > >> >>> >-- >> >>> >> >========================================================================= >> >>> ===== >> >> > >Alice >> >>> Faber >> faber at haskins.yale.edu >> >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >> >>> 865-6163 x258 >> >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >> >>> >865-8963 >> >> > > >-- >Dave Wilton >dave at wilton.net >http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Thu Feb 12 15:07:03 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Your Name) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular Message-ID: Definitely sounds like an attempt at a dialect that has been ascribed derisively to non-persons of non-color, i.e., hillbillys. On the other hand, Mark Twain's author's note to Huckleberry Finn listed class and racial variants of dialects from Missouri to New Orleans spoken by his characters. He made the point, he wrote, lest readers think that the characters were all trying to sound alike, and failing. And what difference does it make what other people may have allegedly done with an allegedly similar dialect? Sean Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 15:29:57 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:29:57 -0500 Subject: your alls Message-ID: I just came out of a doctoral oral exam in music. The candidate grew up in the Louisville area and attended the UofL. He has lived for some time in Central Indiana, has a masters in music from Butler U., Indianapolis, and is completing his doctoral program at Ball State. In the course of discussion about his dissertation topic, he used the phrase "your alls ideas". This was the only you all or your all form in two hours. On Google, "your alls" gets 360 hits, some of which don't count because Alls is also a family name ("your Alls family genealogy"). "Youralls" gets 12. "you all" gets 11.4m, many of which aren't dialectal ("Thank you all!") and "y'all" gets 156k, but Google deletes the apostrophe before searching, even with "y'all" in quotes, so I'm not sure what that number means. "Yalls" (apostrophes deleted by Google) gets 4150. I'm surprised at the low number of possessive forms, .04% of total forms searched. Herb From pds at VISI.COM Thu Feb 12 15:50:02 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:50:02 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <20040210162605.C94AA502D@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Two for Barry: What is the story of this name for a White Castle Hamburger? Did WC's registered name, "Slyder," come first, or the popular nickname for their hamburger, "slider"? And when? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 16:00:02 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:00:02 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One last follow-up (I hope): Just last night I saw two ads in a chain store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I think. At 09:51 AM 2/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. >> >>But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant >>menus, perhaps >>to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. > >cf. "skillet corn bread", which is indeed baked in a cast-iron >skillet. I'm wondering if the complementary distribution is partly >phonologically conditioned--"cast-iron frying pan" is just too many >syllables compared to "cast-iron skillet". > >larry > >> >>Quoting Beverly Flanigan : >> >>> That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise >>> it's frying pan. >>> >>> At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>> >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>> >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >>> >>about different things? >>> >>Fritz >>> > >>> >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >>> >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >>> >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >>> >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >>> >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >>> >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >>> >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >>> >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >>> >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >>> >frying pans, never skillets. >>> > >>> >Larry >>> > >>> >> >>> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >>> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't >>> seen one >>> >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >>> >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a >>> clerk in a >>> >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >>> >>her/him). >>> >> >>> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>> >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words >>> 'frying >>> >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now >>> instead? >>> >>>Fritz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be >>> with >>> >>>-ing. >>> >>> >>> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>> >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying >>>pan--oddly not >>> a >>> >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>> >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >>> >>> gadgets. >>> >>> >Fritz >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>> >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic >>> terms >>> >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>> >>> >linguistics class. >>> >>> > >>> >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >>> >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >>> >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >>> >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric >>> frypan, and >>> >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A >>> ringer >>> >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and >>> frying >>> >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >>> >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron >>> type and >>> a >>> >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >>> >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >>> >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I >>> never >>> >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or >>> existed) >>> >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > >>> > > >>> >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >Sam Clements said: >>> >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >>> >>> prompted the >>> >>> > >use of "frypan". >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >>> >>> "frying >>> >>> > pan" >>> >>> > >nowadays? >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >>> >>> 1960's I >>> >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say >>> the >>> >>> same. >>> >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. >>> IMHO. >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >>> >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >>> >>> > >pan". >>> >>> > >>> >>> >-- >>> >>> >>> >========================================================================= >>> >>> ===== >>> >> > >Alice >>> >>> Faber >>> faber at haskins.yale.edu >>> >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >>> >>> 865-6163 x258 >>> >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax >>> (203) >>> >>> >865-8963 >>> >> >> >>-- >>Dave Wilton >>dave at wilton.net >>http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 16:13:15 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:13:15 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <402B87C9.6EF55B75@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I tend to agree on the hierarchical put-down theory, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "mild rebuttal." It is an extremely offensive piece, to my mind, regardless of the color or origin of the secretary. I say that because we've had several secretaries who are "local" (and why shouldn't we?), and they've occasionally written the way they speak, including using generalized past tense "done." (Misspellings are another matter and totally irrelevant here.) Visitors will sometimes ask us why we (linguists, of all people!) tolerate such usage in the office, and we answer, truthfully, that we value their skills more than their speech. So their! At 08:03 AM 2/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: >First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South >Louisiana and >New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any >such >vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally >uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this >exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild >rebuttal to >a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). > >sally donlon > > > >Sam Clements wrote: > > > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban > legend > > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my > mother. > > > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? > What > > did his message have to do with her message? > > > > SC > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > > email > > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > > forgot to > > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > > time. This > > > is what he wrote: > > > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > > Guess some > > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear > attempt to > > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > > Abner. > > > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > > would suggest > > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > > color. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > > From cowboyjack at CABLEONE.NET Thu Feb 12 16:52:56 2004 From: cowboyjack at CABLEONE.NET (cowboyjack) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:52:56 -0600 Subject: Unsubscibing Message-ID: Can someone please tell me how to get off this list? I'm not having any luck. \ Thanks, Jack From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Feb 12 18:06:46 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:06:46 -0600 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Point taken, IF the secretary indeed used non-standard dialect on a regular basis. I guess I was giving the prof a bit of the old benefit-of-the-doubt in that I couldn't forsee that he were enough the cretin to actually mock such a speaker. sally Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I tend to agree on the hierarchical put-down theory, but I certainly > wouldn't call it a "mild rebuttal." It is an extremely offensive piece, to > my mind, regardless of the color or origin of the secretary. I say that > because we've had several secretaries who are "local" (and why shouldn't > we?), and they've occasionally written the way they speak, including using > generalized past tense "done." (Misspellings are another matter and > totally irrelevant here.) Visitors will sometimes ask us why we > (linguists, of all people!) tolerate such usage in the office, and we > answer, truthfully, that we value their skills more than their speech. So > their! > > At 08:03 AM 2/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: > >First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South > >Louisiana and > >New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any > >such > >vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally > >uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this > >exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild > >rebuttal to > >a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). > > > >sally donlon > > > > > > > >Sam Clements wrote: > > > > > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > > > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban > > legend > > > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my > > mother. > > > > > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > > > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > > > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? > > What > > > did his message have to do with her message? > > > > > > SC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > > > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > > > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > > > email > > > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > > > forgot to > > > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > > > time. This > > > > is what he wrote: > > > > > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > > > Guess some > > > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear > > attempt to > > > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > > > Abner. > > > > > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > > > would suggest > > > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > > > color. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > > > From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 18:11:23 2004 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:11:23 -0500 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: I might be the least credible here, but in my central Ohio dialect I say "skillet," no matter the metal. I use a couple descriptors like "iron skillet" if it's made of iron, "non-stick skillet," for the teflon types, and "electric skillet". I picked up the use of "fry pan," not "frying pan," in eastern KY, but I usually don't use those terms. Kate ____________________ Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:03:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:03:38 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212105531.0201d128@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >One last follow-up (I hope): Sorry to dash your hope! >Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >think. In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many (offered) sales of "sauté pans" (with various spellings). Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:27:01 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:27:01 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>One last follow-up (I hope): > >Sorry to dash your hope! > >>Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >>store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >>teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >>means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >>to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >>mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >>think. > >In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many >(offered) sales of "sauté pans" (with various spellings). Not to mention the various omelet(te) pans. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:36:23 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:36:23 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <200402111643.i1BGh785011728@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to LH, DW and DR for their timely replies. I play poker almost exclusively with a small number (<12) friends and have never heard full boat, but I will cite (full) boat. I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go back and suggest that be inserted. I went back and asked one of my friends who also plays at commercial tables, and he says he usually hears the royal family heard in a context such as "I'm working on the royal family". He said he had never heard it in Las Vegas, so perhaps this is a local regionalism (Western Washington or Puget Sound). Having a pun, logical derivation and utility as use in poker jargon, it seems reasonable for entry in non-regional poker use. I will try using gas station and hotel at the next game if the opportunity strikes. I am glad to have names for these irritating phenomena. Since I don't hear "full" in front of boat, I wonder if these will require full as well... Best regards Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Laurence Horn > >me, last night: >>>Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >>>flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >>>games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >>>look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >>>confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >Wisconsin, >>>and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite general. >>>There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair hand and the >>>superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically in 7-card >>>games. > >Of course, the relevant brain cells had clicked off when I was >trying to remember the last two terms, so I had to ask Barbara >Abbott for a prod. The 3-pair hand is a "full gas station", >the superfluous double trips (e.g. KKK999) is a "full hotel". >The latter is presumably based on Monopoly, although the >difference between a house and a hotel is functionally >relevant in that game. > >Larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:24:22 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:24:22 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? At 02:03 PM 2/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>One last follow-up (I hope): > >Sorry to dash your hope! > >>Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >>store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >>teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >>means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >>to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >>mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >>think. > >In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many >(offered) sales of "sauté pans" (with various spellings). > >Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:53:22 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:53:22 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <007801c3f19f$7ffc6f90$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 11:36 AM -0800 2/12/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >I will try using gas station and hotel at the next game if the opportunity >strikes. I am glad to have names for these irritating phenomena. Since I >don't hear "full" in front of boat, I wonder if these will require full as >well... > I think they almost always do, since they're understood parasitically on "full house". Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:02:12 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:02:12 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212142222.0111f2b0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan said: >Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti >pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? Actually...I have nothing agin pasta. I just can't metabolize it. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:05:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:05:38 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212142222.0111f2b0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:24 PM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti >pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? All those Down With Carbs folks (Atkinsites, South Beachites, etc.). The Times living section yesterday described a conference addressing this terrible trend, held (of course) in Rome. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:18:24 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:18:24 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <200402121936.i1CJacNu007977@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Make that three of a kind, not triplet. But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett >I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go >back and suggest that be inserted. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Feb 12 20:22:02 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:22:02 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <009501c3f1a5$613ef680$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 12:18:24PM -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Make that three of a kind, not triplet. > > But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? No, but they do say "trip" or "trips". Jesse Sheidlower From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:49:02 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:49:02 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? Message-ID: [This is from a story about a bunch of churchwomen who went out to investigate the cabarets of Chicago. Naturally, when a posse of middle-aged biddies in stupid hats showed up at a low dive at 11:30 pm, the manager of the place didn't suspect a thing, though the manager of one joint let it be known that "the identity of [the party's] members in some mysterious way had become known". In any event, the women were allowed to see some actual "Carusoing" perpetrated.] CARUSOING SHOCKS PARTY. The next stop was at Charlie West's, across the street. There the principal feature of note was the gay antics of the entertainers. These were a man and a woman, and they supplemented their vocal "stunt" with that latest cabaret innovation, "Carusoing," a name sufficiently expressive to describe the "stunt." It amused the patrons, but disgusted the party. "However," commented one of the visitors, "they are not catering to us." Chicago Herald, May 1, 1916, p. 1, col. 1 & p. 4, col. 3 When I read this story, I thought that the reporter who went along on this foray was taking the mickey of the women, and, indeed, I still think so, because it is a pretty funny story. If he was, though, his editor didn't notice, and no doubt just as well for the reporter; there was an editorial a couple of days later praising the ladies' good work. The only biography of Caruso at hand that's not written by a family member is strangely more interested in his singing career than his personal habits. He had been arrrested in 1906 in the monkey house of the Central Park Zoo, evidently for patting a woman's bottom. The biography claims that this was a set-up, and if the facts offered are correct -- the cop and the woman were old friends and had been through the routine before with other men -- it probably was. Still, people in 1916 were as ready to believe the worst about a celebrity as they are today, so perhaps a dance that involved some level of groping of the partner would be referred to as "carusoing". I suppose that it's also possible that the women were aesthetically shocked and disgusted, not morally. Perhaps "carusoing" involved off-key yowling? Any of you rounders ever done any "carusoing" when young? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 21:02:42 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:02:42 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <009501c3f1a5$613ef680$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: >Never. Trips ... trip kings, trip ducks, etc... dInIs >Make that three of a kind, not triplet. > >But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett > >>I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go >>back and suggest that be inserted. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 22:02:59 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:02:59 -0500 Subject: More on fireplugs Message-ID: At about the same time we were discussing fire hydrants and fire plugs here, there was a parallel discussion on the newsgroup alt.folklore.urban, under the unlikely subject heading: "The "Country Plug" [WAS: Scottish Castle Magic]". Well, not quite parallel. Lee Ayrton found some illuminating historical detail on fireplugs which seems germane. I repost the following, with his kind permission. In article , Lee Ayrton wrote: > On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Louise Bremner wrote: > > > Lee Ayrton wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Gerald Clough wrote: > > > > > > Around the fire station, we had an old hydrant mounted on a pipework > > > > base, so that it could be brought out for drills. More than once, a > > > > passerby asked what it was and was told that it was our "country plug" > > > > for fires out in the county where there were no regular hydrants and > > > > where we would throw out the country plug and hook up. More than one > > > > seemed satisfied with the answer. > > > > As much as I resisted the etymology the last time I forced myself to look > > > it up it appears that the term "fire plug" does, in fact, refer to the > > > antiquated practice of drilling holes in water mains in order to obtain > > > water to fight fires, then sealing the hole with a removable plug. The > > > would come in handy, and cut down on the mud considerably. > > > > So it's not a new idea? > > Apparently not, although, as I said above, I resisted it as too pat an > explanation. It sounded too much like "cop" is from the buttons > on police uniforms for me. See: > > 12. A Brief History of the Hydrant - Revised 1-28-2003 > > > [quote]---------------------- > In the photo at left is a shattered section of wooden water main that > was dug up in recent years. The hole bored into it is believed to be > that of a "fire plug", city of Cincinnati, Ohio, early 1800s. > [...] > According to author Curt Wohleber, writing in American Heritage "After > fire destroyed three-quarters of London in 1666, the city installed > new mains with predrilled holes and plugs that rose above ground > level."... ..."In the 1700s, valves began to replace the simple wood > [unquote]-------------------- > > Another source: > > > The above wouldn't connect, for whatever reason. Google cache: > > > > [quote]---------------------- > Source: Courtesy of Dick Riegler, Philadelphia Suburban Water > Company.800_hd08.jpg] Fire plugs and wood pipe. When hollowed-out wood > log pipes were first used for water conveyance in the late 1700s - > early 1800s, it became apparent that they could also be used as a > source of water to fight fires. When a fire occurred, the > firefighters (volunteers) dug down, found the log pipe, and augered > a hole through it. [Note: In some early water systems, such as > Philadelphia's -- followed soon thereafter by systems in New York > and Boston -- wood plugs were installed at specific locations (mid- > block, etc.) when the main itself was installed, so that the > firemen would know where to find a plug in advance.] Water would > fill the firemen's excavation,forming a "wet well" to either get > buckets of water from, or serving as a reservoir for pumps to pull > water from. > [unquote]-------------------- > > And, because three is a nice number for sources: > > 16. NOVA | Transcripts | Escape: Fire | PBS > > [quote]---------------------- > by more fire-resistant brick. Soon, a better water system went under > construction. Wooden mains were still used, but now, holes were > pre-cut in them. Removable plugs were placed in the hole. And they > were made long enough to reach above ground, marking, for the next > fire, exactly where the water was. This is the origin of the phrase > "fire plug," what some people still call hydrants today. But the Great > [unquote]-------------------- > > > I couldn't find anything in print in my big shelf of books on words. If > it isn't an accurate etymology, it least it is well-worn. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 13 01:25:36 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:25:36 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? Message-ID: George, I think your "monkey house" cite is the key. I pulled up the only early cite from newspaperarchive. Nov. 2, 1907 _Frederick MD. Daily News_ (I'll try to hit the highlights as the story is long) "A bitter arraignment of Mrs. Mabel Orton Buttle of 260 Lafayette street, New York city, on a crowded Forty second street car by Dr. Lazare Wischnewetzky, a medical specialist, whom Mrs. Buttle had never seen before, caused great excitement and resulted in the arrest of the physician. Wischnewetzky declared he was "cursading against Carusoing." Mrs. Buttle is a young widow of striking appearance and dresses in good taste. Her husband left her a comfortable fortune five years ago. Mrs. Buttle entered the car alone. A man and a boy squeezed over to make room, and she sat down on the crowded seat. She had gone a couple of blocks and was looking out the window when Dr. Wischnewetzky, who had been watching her narrowly from his seat near her, suddenly arose and, shaking his finger in her face, began his denunciation in an excited manner.... "I have been watching you, you miserable woman," shouted the excited specialist. "It is women like you who drive men to the monkey house. "I have been studying your type, and I have been studying you. It is such women as you who corrupt the morals of the young men and women of our cities, who send them to perdition. I saw you nudging the man sitting next you." (a few passengers come to her rescue, the police are called by the woman. They arrest the Dr. The Doc says at his arraignment '...Every time he went into a car women began edging up to him and elbowing him to attract his attention.') "They are always trying to 'Caruso' me." he said. They sent the Dr. to Bellevue for observation. SC From JNardoni at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 02:02:54 2004 From: JNardoni at AOL.COM (Joseph Nardoni) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:02:54 EST Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Well, you ask some good questions. The use of the vernacular had nothing to do with the secretary at all. As he puts it, he was so embarrassed at having forgotten to tell her he would be out that he decided to make fun of himself in responding to her. He wanted to make himself look stupid because that was how he felt for having forgotten to notify her. (I think he realizes now how successful he was.) He was online at home, ready to send her the notice he was going to be out when he got distracted by another task and simply spaced it. He was neither put off by her message, which was merely a reminder to follow the procedure because it made things difficult on her, nor did he recognize it as a formal communication at all, since he has somewhat limited contact with this secretary--he greets her, asks her for things when she needs it, thanks her for fixing the copy machine when it goes haywire. It seemed natural to him that she would communicate by email because she would be sure he got the message without having to worry about having the opportunity to remind him in person. It felt like an informal reminder to him, so he responded in an informal manner. As some of the other responders have wondered about this, he doesn't subscribe to the hierarchical rivalry and putdowns that are rampant on our campus. He has steadfastly campaigned to get more money and better treatment for part time faculty and professional staff members, and when the administrative support staff was protesting during their last round of negotiations, he rallied with them. Furthermore, he's a Creative Writing Professor and is in the habit of making fun of himself, having published funny things about himself in the school magazine. I think he will be more circumspect in the future. I'm sure that what bothers him most is the implied charge of racism behind the criticism he is receiving. He happens to be the adoptive father of an African-American boy. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 13 03:09:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:09:00 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? In-Reply-To: <005b01c3f1d0$48607b40$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: > Wischnewetzky declared he was "crusading against Carusoing." This must be the right sense: "Carusoing" = "frottage", "groping", or something similar. There existed another sense also: "Carusoing" = "singing loudly" (I guess): ---------- _T. Haviland Hicks Senior_ by J. Raymond Elderdice (1916): p. 91 (online): <> [a posse is coming, to stop his singing] ---------- ... but it doesn't exactly fit George Thompson's item where it appears that there were "vocal" and other [presumably non-vocal] "stunts". I wonder what the performers were doing exactly ... perhaps (or perhaps not) something very mild and decorous by modern Superbowl standards. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 13 05:50:05 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:50:05 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040212094305.01c6df88@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: >What is the story of this name for a White Castle Hamburger? Did WC's >registered name, "Slyder," come first, or the popular nickname for their >hamburger, "slider"? And when? I believe the trademark was registered after 1990 (one can look up the exact date at USPTO). I suppose this is deliberately "retro"? The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor "gut-bombs") back then. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 06:06:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:06:28 EST Subject: Push Polling (1994); Bloomberger Message-ID: I just got home from work at 11:05 p.m. Gotta be there at 8:30 a.m. tomorrow. This is nuts. I need a vacation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PUSH POLLING PUSH POLLING--5,320 Google hits, 836 Google Group hits "Push polling" is not in OED and not on the Word Spy. This article has made big internet news recently, although it may be a Kerry smear: http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000780.html February 06, 2004 Rumor: A Kerry Affair & Push Polling Rumor has it that John Kerry (D) is going to be outed by Time Magazine next week for having an affair with a 20 year old woman who remains unknown. The affair supposedly took place intermittently right up to Kerry's Fall 2002 announcement of candidacy. At present, this is nothing more than a rumor; and after such sordid tactics as the "push polling" that took place in South Carolina in the 2000 elections, can such rumors be credible during campaign cycles? Could this create a Democratic backlash against Republicans for perceived scandalmongering? Push Polling Let's rewind history and study another rumor, one which cost Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) his candidacy in 2000. McCain was running a close campaign against George Bush in South Carolina, when Karl Rove introduced his brilliant strategy: push polling (Rove has been involved in push polling since the early 70s). Essentially, calls were made to households asking “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?” Many took this to say that he had one, and seeing McCain and his wife on stage with their adopted Bangladeshi daughter, concluded that the rumor was true. The sight of the little dark skinned girl made the seed planted earlier grow, and McCain ended up losing South Carolina and subsequentially dropping out of the race. So what does push polling have to do with a rumor of Kerry having an affair? Well some would argue that they are merely separate heads of the same beast. Pointing an indignant finger at the machinations of Karl Rove, the Bush administration's strategist who has a penchant for dispersing rumors, many on the Democrat side will claim that Rove is up to his old shenanigans and that the rumors have no basis. What caused McCain to lose in 2000 could inspire Democrats to rally behind Kerry, and lead to a major rift between the parties and brings the race to a closer finish. Theoretical, but plausible. Echoes from Bubba Any mention of a purported sexual scandal would be incomplete without bringing up the notorious ex-President William Jefferson Clinton. With a presidency overshadowed by allegations of oral sex, abuse of power, misconduct, and asking for clarification of the word "is", Clinton's legacy passed on a need for greater scrutiny of presidential candidates and tore down the veil that used to protect the private lives of most politicians. One could draw a parallel between Clinton's misconduct and Kerry's possible extra-marital relationship, there is no doubt. While many argued that Clinton's affairs were nobody's business except his own, others clamored that the President had an obligation to reflect moral clarity and to be a beacon of marriage values. Whether it was a valid impeachable offense or not was yet another matter to argue. Push Me, Pull You Karl Rove, if given the right opportunity, would without doubt pounce on this rumor, and has proven that tactics such as push polling do work. It may not matter if the rumor is true or is a complete fabrication, it will be used against Kerry now, and should he make it past the primaries and become the Democratic nominee (which appears to be with certainty), he will certainly have to fend these and other rumors. Push polling is not intended to get accurate results for candidates to use in speeches, it is intended to wound the image of the opposition. It is "push", because it should push the person into believing something that is specious or rumor (i.e.- “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John Kerry for president if you knew he had sex with an intern?” ). It conveys that the caller has juicy information, and wants you to know, but indemnifies itself from liability by phrasing it as a question. It is also intended to pull the person taking the "poll" into dropping their candidate and voting for the opposition, and many times does, but this year may be an occasion for a large disenfranchised voter base who is disillusioned and tired of shady politicking practices. There could be a backlash against both major parties, but it is not guaranteed. Whatever the outcome, both major candidates may be badly bruised and tarnished if they allow scandalmongering and surreptitious polling tactics to take precedence over running an on-message campaign based on policies, truth, and exhortations of their accomplishments. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Push Polling Dan You ask for definition of push polling. See Washigton post 9 October 1994, article by David Broder "Beware the push poll". It ... bit.listserv.politics - Mar 8, 1995 by Margaret Healy - View Thread (4 articles) RIP: Virginia HB 1065 is dead. ... will re-appear in some form, and I urge you to ponder in the meantime what we in the profession SHOULD do about the problem of irresponsible push polling if we ... bit.listserv.por - Feb 1, 1995 by Thomas M. Guterbock - View Thread (1 article) Campaign polling bill sent back to committee ... solicit your support and input about how this bill could be re-written so that it would (1) introduce accountability to prevent abuses like push polling and (2 ... bit.listserv.por - Jan 17, 1995 (WWW.NEWSPAPAERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 5/30/1995 ...took office." The tactic is called "PUSH POLLING" because it aims to PUSH voters away.....are unlikely to admit defaming an opponent. PUSH POLLING tends to be used in local races.....of the information. Also, the results of a ' PUSH if released, give a seriously flawed and.....warning was issued last week, as legitimate POLLING starts getting under way in the 1996.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, May 30, 1995 615 k Gettysburg Times - 7/23/1996 ...t have enough money to buy advertising and PUSH POLLING. As proof, he compared the.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, July 23, 1996 533 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BLOOMBERGER "Burger Heaven" has just announced a new sandwich called the "Bloomberger," for New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg's birthday...(The meat is not smoked?) I don't know if this will be any better or worse than a "slider" or a "gut-bomb." From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Feb 13 07:17:30 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:17:30 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 13 09:27:59 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:27:59 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402122320.1aRxCP5FB3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Indigo Som >Subject: frypan/frying pan >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? No, you're not alone. I would say cast iron pan and frying pan. Grew up in NYC, and though skillet doesn't sound totally alien, I don't think I ever use it unless it's descriptive of something else, e.g. from menus or ads (skillet licking good?). Rima From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Feb 13 14:20:53 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040213002012.02eff610@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: >The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle >style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. >It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology >said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the >throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something >like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor >"gut-bombs") back then. > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall we say, without stopping. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 14:27:05 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:27:05 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040213091426.00b029c0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders until later; 60's is probably right. dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor "gut-bombs") back then. There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall we say, without stopping. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Feb 13 15:53:43 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:53:43 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: My father (born 1900, in Kansas) frequently used skillet, sometimes frying pan, never frypan. My mother (born 1908, in Wisconsin) seldom used skillet, usually frying pan, never frypan. I (born 1941, in Chicago) sometimes use skillet, usually frying pan, never frypan. Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Kim & Rima McKinzey >Subject: Re: frypan/frying pan >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Indigo Som >>Subject: frypan/frying pan >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? > >No, you're not alone. I would say cast iron pan and frying pan. >Grew up in NYC, and though skillet doesn't sound totally alien, I >don't think I ever use it unless it's descriptive of something else, >e.g. from menus or ads (skillet licking good?). > >Rima > From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:19:22 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:19:22 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb Message-ID: On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that carry over to the IN side of the river? Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > until later; 60's is probably right. > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > we say, without stopping. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:23:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:23:09 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <001701c3f24d$24404060$88580a23@user.msu.edu> Message-ID: Jim, Don't think so, but a little bell is going off in the back of my head. Course I hung around with a lot of Louisville types in the late 50s and cold have been contaminated. dInIs On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that carry over to the IN side of the river? Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > until later; 60's is probably right. > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > we say, without stopping. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Feb 13 16:34:09 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:34:09 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <001701c3f24d$24404060$88580a23@user.msu.edu> Message-ID: The term I first heard (mid-80s, while NJ had White Castle from way back, none were local to me) was "moider boiger" (murder burger). That's pronunciation--I never saw it written. Quoting James Stalker : > On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White > Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that > carry over to the IN side of the river? > > Jim Stalker > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > > > > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > > until later; 60's is probably right. > > > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in > NJ. > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > > we say, without stopping. > > > > Kathleen E. Miller > > Research Assistant to William Safire > > The New York Times > > > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > University Distinguished Professor > > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > > Asian and African Languages > > Wells Hall A-740 > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > > Office: (517) 353-0740 > > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > > > > -- > > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > > to improve security, as described below. > > > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > > ParseHeader (): > > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > > Enforced policy: accept > > > > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. > > -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 13 17:04:07 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:04:07 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: My late friend Clayton McMichen who was from Georgia was a member of Gid Tanner's Skillet Licker Band aka known among names as Gid Tanner and The Skillet Lickers or Gid Tanner and The Lick the Skillet Band. Since Clayton died some 30 years ago you know how old I must be. I just called my mother who is 88 years old and who grew up in Centralia, Illinois and who still lives there what she called a pan in which she fried bacon, eggs and pancakes, and she called it a skillet. I hope this is of some use. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Remlinger" To: Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: frying pans > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Kathryn Remlinger > Subject: frying pans > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I might be the least credible here, but in my central Ohio dialect I say > "skillet," no matter the metal. I use a couple descriptors like "iron > skillet" if it's made of iron, "non-stick skillet," for the teflon > types, and "electric skillet". I picked up the use of "fry pan," not > "frying pan," in eastern KY, but I usually don't use those terms. > > Kate > > ____________________ > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-331-3122 > fax: 616-331-3430 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:31:57 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:31:57 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040213091426.00b029c0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as more recent and "fancier.") They all went to "the shore" too, of course. At 09:20 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > >>The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle >>style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. >>It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology >>said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the >>throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something >>like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor >>"gut-bombs") back then. > >There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. >Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early >80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls >them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the >little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall >we say, without stopping. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From panis at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 13 19:14:46 2004 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:14:46 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <200402131830.i1DIU0PY447614@yipvmb.prodigy.net> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his >grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a >Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as >more recent and "fancier.") to Kathleen E. Miller's: >> Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >>mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc this to him and report back. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Fri Feb 13 19:29:26 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <0HT100F38CPZ62@smtp3.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Feb 13 20:50:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:50:12 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040213132829.0293d8f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joan! I thought you might have something, but I'm at home and DARE is in the library. . . . At 01:29 PM 2/13/2004 -0600, you wrote: >There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found >chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 02:17:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:17:51 EST Subject: ABBA (Anyone But Bush Again); Sweep the Board Message-ID: ABBA (ANYONE BUT BUSH AGAIN ABBA, according to Newsweek's Anna Quindlen, is not a Swedish singing group but rather a person who lives in the Upper West Side of Manhattan and will vote for Anybody But Bush Again. ---NEW YORK SUN, 13 February 2004, pg. 3, cols. 1-2. ABBA + ""BUT BUSH AGAIN"--531 Google hits, 74 Google Groups hits Please! No one vote for Abba! I liked Abba Eban as much as anyone, but he died in 2002!! (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: OT: At last ...the truth about ABBA ... That's a political party that doesn't exist until after someone gets nominated. It has a single issue: unity. My party is called ABBA: Anyone But Bush Again. ... rec.arts.theatre.musicals - Jun 13, 2003 by Bushwhacker - View Thread (2 articles) Looking at 2004: MoveOn Bulletin (fwd) ... doc.mhtml?i=20030609&s=hendricks ----- ABBA CADABRA Liz Langley, AlterNet My new political party, ABBA (Anyone But Bush Again), is an ... fa.fiction-of-philosophy - Jun 13, 2003 by Alan Sondheim - View Thread (1 article) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SWEEP THE BOARD There's probably no way I'll be able to be in William Safire's column again and he'll admit errors every month, but this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES column is absolutely wrong: (http://www.nytimes.com) After political sages stopped speculating about Howard Dean running the table and started guessing that John Kerry would do it, the columnist Robert Novak tried to break out of clicheville with ''Kerry's aides won't admit it publicly, but they see a chance to sweep the board.'' This is a basketball phrase. I put the full-court press on Tom Jolly, The Times's sports editor, who dribbled a while, thinking it over, before opining that ''to sweep the boards is to dominate the rebounds until the score is made. The 'boards' are the backboards behind the basket.'' (He will undoubtedly be inundated with mail from fans certain it refers to floorboards, scoreboards or college boards. Better him than me.) But assuming Jolly is right, is the metaphor already outdated? To allow spectators seated in rows behind the baskets to see the action, the old wooden boards have been replaced by unbreakable glass or transparent plastic. ''That's true,'' says my colleague, ''which is why you now hear cleaning the glass.'' A glass backboard is still a "backboard." I hear "sweep the boards" used all the time. But it's never "sweep the board." This is NOT a basketball phrase. It's a gambling phrase. And it's not even new--it pre-dates basketball! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Bedford Gazette - 9/10/1926 ...It is a gambling phrase, and means to SWEEP THE BOARD of all THE stakes literally.....Phrases That Now Are Household Words "To SWEEP THE deck" sounds like a THE actor who.....on THE left, THE one' with THE v high BOARD fence around it, is THE studio of THE.....hard, like agates, were scanning THE high BOARD fence, from it THEy turned with a look.. Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, September 10, 1926 802 k Daily Gazette And Bulletin - 2/23/1888 ...SOUTH WilLIAMSPORT. THE REPUBLICANS SWEEP THE BOARD CLEAN. r( KtttrriT Tli THE uutl.....WUiivte 279; J THUtBJUAY. KKHRUARY 23, 1888 THE SMOKE OF THE ELECTION 188; H It. Meliok.....H McFiulden. iiuil in familv ul WITPR, and THE odSWon vm wry THE ta net. In.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Thursday, February 23, 1888 669 k Hornellsville Tribune - 10/27/1871 ...in THE field next spring and shall "SWEEP THE BOARD" as gamblers say. We are watching.....politics of this country, and who, in THE BOARD of Supervisors was always ready to do.....Senate, and as such a member of tho Canal BOARD, ho voted for numberless iniquitous.....Washington to have Oaksnu'th and all on BOARD arrested and REMOVED OUT OF WOODFOTD'B.. Hornellsville, New York Friday, October 27, 1871 475 k Janesville Daily Gazette - 9/26/1860 ...country is all right. Honest old Abe will SWEEP THE BOARD by thousands. THE Douglas men.....LEVI ALDEN, of Janesville. for Clerk of THE BOARD, S. L. JAMES, of Beloit. .For IHstrict.....MUST BE MAINTAINED. IT 13 THE LAST, THE ONLY HOPE OF THE SOUTH." So we ace that.....by THE British government to enquire into THE working of THE educational system of THE.. Janesville, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 26, 1860 1038 k Titusville Morning Herald - 2/27/1871 ...can play those three cards again, he will SWEEP THE BOARD. "Wo have no hesita tion in.....of THE syed Guy order Mrs. Wood's last book, ha THE old gal writer well, in oi her.....landlord ban never been paid for two weeks BOARD, not for many drinks, nor for THE clean.....men from THE pit. THE alarm subsided and THE wott.wae re sumed. THE men dug, and dog.. Titusville, Pennsylvania Monday, February 27, 1871 960 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 09:42:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:42:48 EST Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald Message-ID: SURSTROMMING SURSTROMMING--1,180 Google hits, 1,400 Google Groups hits I was looking at "alt.food," and there is an "alt.food.surstromming." Not in OED ("miserable on food"). (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 11/20/1967 ...for its geese. In some northern provinces, SURSTROMMING, a fermented delicacy made from.. Walla Walla, Washington Monday, November 20, 1967 739 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- AFTERPARTY AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an "afterparty"? Sleep? Are there after-recipes for it? WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March 17, 1980 in the WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. (GOOGLE) UrbanDictionary.com/afterparty ... definitions. Define your world. 4 definitions of afterparty. after party (27K WAV by Marquetta). ... Show a random word. afterparty, 2 votes. Compound ... www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=afterparty - 9k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) San Antonio Collge Festival (was Re: Duquesne Tamburitzans) ... There will an afterparty at 10PM with the Tamburitzans, SAC Gym, soft soled shoes PLEASE! Saturday night features a folk dance concert ... rec.folk-dancing - Feb 28, 1992 by Joel Breazeale - View Thread (1 article) Where the $^@#&% is Olivia? I caught her on the afterparty for the MTV Music Awards (and also right next to a camera during "Enter Sandman") but I've missed her on WY. ... rec.arts.tv - Feb 15, 1992 by Charles Anthony Leone - View Thread (1 article) no subject (file transmission) At a sm afterparty, a mistress (normally) was being topped by a very dominant male, and both were definitely my friends, but not lovers. ... alt.sex.bondage - Jun 18, 1991 by wi.351 at wizvax.methuen.ma.us - View Thread (8 articles) Laguna Festival, CA ... Join us for a weekend of fun: Friday, February 9 Dance Workshop 7:30 - 11:00 pm $6.00 Afterparty 11:00 - 2:00 am $3.00 Saturday, February 10 Advanced Workshop ... rec.folk-dancing - Feb 2, 1990 by Scott Erickson - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) California Statewide Folk Dance Festival ... Culver City Friday, May 24 8-11 pm Pre-Party $6 Saturday, May 25 10:30 am-1 pm Institute $6 2:30-5 pm Dance $5 8-11 pm Dance $7 11 pm-1 am After-party $6 Sunday ... rec.folk-dancing - May 14, 1991 by cisvms!us048503 at serc.3m.COM - View Thread (2 articles) Re: David Lee Roth ... The last time I saw Jason was when Megadeth and Judas Priest was in town. He was at Megadeth's after- party, and was talking with Marty and a bunch of friends. ... alt.rock-n-roll.metal - Mar 7, 1991 by Linda M. - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Relevance and Veracity ... Back in the good old days, which I'm sure Caryn remembers, after party lines became a thing of the past and before Usenet, if you wanted to really do someone ... soc.singles - Nov 5, 1990 by Charleen Bunjiovianna Stoner - View Thread (31 articles) Re: Does dreaming take place in real-time? ... sleep). - Dreamed in real time; ie a typical eight-hour scenario (show plus after- party, for example) took just that much time. ... alt.dreams - Jun 7, 1990 by The Grey Wolf - View Thread (7 articles) Re: Where are all the Folk Dancers? ... I still recall the disappointment my husband and I had several years ago at an after-party at the National Square Dance Convention. ... rec.folk-dancing - Apr 27, 1990 by Tom Roby - View Thread (20 articles) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTER PARTY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES IN THE NATURE OF A TELEVISION PROGRAM FEATURING LIVE ACTION, COMEDY AND DRAMA; PROVIDING INFORMATION IN THE FIELD OF ENTERTAINMENT AND EDUCATION BY MEANS OF A GLOBAL COMPUTER NETWORK Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78058111 Filing Date April 12, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition October 2, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) VIACOM INTERNATIONAL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1515 BROADWAY NEW YORK NEW YORK 10036 Attorney of Record DANIEL CHUNG Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTERPARTY Goods and Services IC 013. US 002 009. G & S: FIREWORKS. FIRST USE: 20000901. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20001015 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75943450 Filing Date March 10, 2000 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition January 2, 2001 Registration Number 2707465 Registration Date April 15, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) UNITED PYROTECHNICS, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1638 Galvez Ave. San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94124 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTER-PARTY Goods and Services IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Hair Care preparations. FIRST USE: 20010401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75907129 Filing Date February 1, 2000 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition June 5, 2001 Registration Number 2660079 Registration Date December 10, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) TONI & GUY (USA) LIMITED CORPORATION UNITED KINGDOM 2311 MIDWAY ROAD CARROLLTON TEXAS 75006 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record David W. Carstens Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Many bad hits--ed.) Marysville Journal Tribune - 5/20/1977 ...group Black Leather Touch will perform. The AFTERPARTY should end by 3 a.m. (By Mark.....Getty Jr. gets. His dad left him a total of Book publishers are often pristinely poor.. Marysville, Ohio Friday, May 20, 1977 612 k Marysville Journal Tribune - 4/29/1977 ...and Mrs. George Milter are chairmen for the AFTERPARTY. Approximately 25 junior parents.. Marysville, Ohio Friday, April 29, 1977 612 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/8/1966 ...put their names on the list to call at the AFTERPARTY. Si had called the year before at.....had to undergo extensive treatment. The book is interestingly written and presents.....biblical times. The opening chapter of "The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel" describes a.....sun was coming up in the East. The square book: dancer's dateBat Jack waaa't going to.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, October 08, 1966 666 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOCKTAIL See "mocktail" in ADS-L archives. (ANCESTRY.COM) 16 July 1956, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 12, cols. 6-8 caption: POSITIVE APPRAOCH--Deciding to take a positive approach to the alcohol problem, some 200 young people attending the Norwalk District Methodist Youth Fellowship Institute at Lakeside last week sponsored a "mocktail" party to show other teen-agers that it isn't necessary to drink alcoholic beverages in order to have a good time. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Newport Daily News - 5/16/1957 ...after the Junior prorn. Belty Duly gave a "MOCKTAIL" party at her home. Having wonderful.. Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, May 16, 1957 440 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/18/1959 ...of the Lorain Christian Temple tomorrow. A "MOCKTAIL" party is planned by the Senior.....Friday. This is the dramatization of the Book of Exodus, the life of Moses and the.....JUDAISM ty LIO IAIK, Chief talta. tl.ft THE BOOK SHOP 1 M4MM Vfffrttn C 9Vp0rfM 9f An.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, April 18, 1959 754 k Piqua Daily Call - 12/3/1945 ...AND HOME MADE SOUPS. Hooper's Restaurant MOCKTAIL Bar 529 N. MAIN STREET ON DIXIE.. Piqua, Ohio Monday, December 03, 1945 1100 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/16/1936 ...the inset is a section of the tourist class MOCKTAIL bar. The ship itself, under full.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, May 16, 1936 1206 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW YORK HERALD The NEW YORK HERALD was one of the greatest newspapers in American history. It later combined with the New York Tribune \onto the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE. Ancestry.com lists this database addition for 2/13/2004: Description: The New York Herald newspaper was located in New York, New York. This database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the following years: 1869-72, 1969, and 1971-72. Great! It's finally being digitized! One problem--the paper folded in 1966! Maybe 1969 and 1971-72 is the INTERNATIONAL HERALD-TRIBUNE? From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 14 13:43:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:43:09 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. dInIs Beverly Flanigan wrote: Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as more recent and "fancier.") to Kathleen E. Miller's: Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc this to him and report back. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 14 16:38:21 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:38:21 -0500 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <12a.3b7608e7.2d5f4798@aol.com> Message-ID: >SURSTROMMING Fermented/rotten fish, supplied even today in cans swollen with gas from decomposition. Only for those with specialized tastes. (^_^) The NEW YORK HERALD was one of the greatest newspapers in American >history. It later combined with the New York Tribune \onto the NEW YORK >HERALD >TRIBUNE. > Ancestry.com lists this database addition for 2/13/2004: > >Description: >The New York Herald newspaper was located in New York, New York. This >database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the >following years: >1869-72, 1969, and 1971-72. > > Great! It's finally being digitized! > One problem--the paper folded in 1966! Maybe 1969 and 1971-72 is the >INTERNATIONAL HERALD-TRIBUNE? No, just another database error. It looks like 1869-1872 is about it. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Feb 14 17:17:52 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:17:52 -0500 Subject: Sweep the Board Message-ID: Now we see why Kathleen gave the disclaimer about Safire doing his own research for a few weeks. John Baker From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Feb 14 17:31:39 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:31:39 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe that's where it originated (I have no idea), but the few people I know who've used it have no Italian ancestry, so they picked it up somewhere. I'm under the impression that it caught on because it avoids the "ageism" associated with "grandma." At 08:43 AM 2/14/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were >simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this >is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. > >dInIs > > > > > > > >Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his >grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a >Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as >more recent and "fancier.") > >to Kathleen E. Miller's: > > Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. > >I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop >and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a >little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I >assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc >this to him and report back. > >John >-- > > >*** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, >California, U.S.A. *** > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Feb 14 17:55:15 2004 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:55:15 -0500 Subject: nana Message-ID: I think that the popularity of the word "Nana" comes from its use in Peter Pan, despite the fact that it's the name of the dog... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Feb 14 18:06:15 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:06:15 -0600 Subject: Caesarean section--Julius Caesar was evidently not delivered this way Message-ID: OED2 says of "Caesarean birth, operation, section": "the delivery of a child by cutting through the walls of the abdomen when delivery cannot take place in the natural way, as was done in the case of Julius Caesar." _The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology_, however, is more cautious: "1615 'Caesarean section,"...; so called from the belief (often disputed) that Julius Caesar was born by means of this operation." Meanwhile, note "Origin Of the Term: Cesarean Section" in _Gynecologic, Obstetric, and Related Surgery_, edited by David H Nichols and Daniel L. Clarke-Pearson (St. Louis et al: Mosby), 2000, pp.1114-1115: "Pliny, who some refer to as a 'lying historian,' was in error when he stated that some of the Caesars, Julius in particular, were delivered by an abdominal incision. ...Festus stated that those persons delivered by abdominal incision were called 'caesones.' [G. Cohen: from "caesus" = cut]. Isidorus of Seville firmly and erroneously established the relationship between the operation and the person Julius Caesar and referred to such persons as 'Caesares.' According to Pundel, Rousset, author of the first text on the subject, became confused with Pliny's Latin text. -- de Chauliac and Roesslin both perpetuated the story, and it has been repeated in print as late as March 1985. The myth was preserved in the Middle Ages in many manuscripts in the 1300s in _the Faits des Romains_. The first printed version of _The Twelve Caesars written in the second century, printed in 1506, includes a woodblock print that purports to be the first picture of a cesarean section. This is an error because Aurelia was present at his triumphs." [G. Cohen; Aurelia was Caesar's mother; assumption: a Caesarean section in early times would be performed only on a woman not expected to survive.] Bottom line: 1) OED should be cautious about saying that Julius Caesar was delivered by Caesarean section. 2) An overall study of the origin of "Caesarean section"--especially with bibliographic references--might be in order. Gerald Cohen P.S. Re: Pundel (mentioned above), I see a J.P. Pundel wrote _Histoire de L'Opérqtion Cesarienne_ (1969), and that it's said to have a bibliography. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 14 23:01:33 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:01:33 -0800 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <200402140943.i1E9gwBj001965@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Barry, for these. I have submitted afterparty as a candidate for nijikai to the Japanese-English dictionary I am helping edit. In the past, I have always glossed this as the "party after the party". Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >AFTERPARTY > >AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits >AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits > > I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an >"afterparty"? Sleep? > Are there after-recipes for it? > WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March >17, 1980 in the WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 23:30:26 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:30:26 EST Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" writes: > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. There used to be a White Castle on the corner of the Black Horse Pike and Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down maybe ten years ago and was replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is NO White Castle on the Black Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP meets the Expressway), nor on US 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only White Castle in New Jersey that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick and Princeton. What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go danceries, including the one whose marquee reads SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS now serving lunch If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a "slider", did the term derive from the baseball pitch (which did not become common in the major leagures until circa 1950)? For what it's worth, I have no recollection of coming across the name "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in 1986. For the benefit of those not familiar with South Jersey, there are two roads running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White Horse Pike (US 30) runs from the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) section of Atlantic City. The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman Bridge to the "Downbeach" (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various portions of it are numbered as US 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the name "White Horse Pike" came first and is from the name of a tavern on the road. - Jim Landau From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Feb 14 23:46:30 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:46:30 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: <7e.46ff212c.2d600992@aol.com> Message-ID: There's a White Castle in Toms River on Route 37, near the Hooper Ave intersection. Those who go to the beach in Seaside or Island Beach State Park pass it on their way from the Parkway. It's relatively new (the last decade or so). As I said earlier, Toms River was devoid of White Castle until after I grew up and left town. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:30 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo > > > In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" > writes: > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the > shore in NJ. > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. > > There used to be a White Castle on the corner of the Black Horse Pike and > Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down maybe ten years > ago and was > replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is NO White Castle > on the Black > Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP meets the > Expressway), nor on US > 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only White Castle > in New Jersey > that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick and Princeton. > > What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go danceries, > including the one > whose marquee reads > SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS > now serving lunch > > If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a "slider", did the > term derive > from the baseball pitch (which did not become common in the major leagures > until circa 1950)? > > For what it's worth, I have no recollection of coming across the name > "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in 1986. > > For the benefit of those not familiar with South Jersey, there > are two roads > running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White Horse Pike (US > 30) runs from > the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) section of > Atlantic City. > The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman Bridge to the "Downbeach" > (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various portions of it > are numbered as US > 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the name "White Horse Pike" > came first and is from the name of a tavern on the road. > > - Jim Landau > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 01:16:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:16:55 -0500 Subject: Glatt Kosher (1964); Bagel/Bialy; Depression Cake, Shlishkes, Nahit, Fluden (1937) Message-ID: Some stuff before I leave for Panama in about 11 hours. Be back next Sunday. --------------------------------------------------------------- GLATT KOSHER Earlier still. April 1964, KOSHER FOOD GUIDE (NYC), vol. 30, no. 2, pg. 19 ad: MEIBACH'S BURNSIDE MANOR DISTINCTIVE GLATT KOSHER CATERERS 85 West Burnside Avenue, Bronx 53, N. Y. --------------------------------------------------------------- BAGEL, BIALY A worthwhile article. July 1964, KOSHER FOOD GUIDE, pg. 24: COURTESY OF YOUNG ISRAEL--VIEWPOINT _BAGELS ARE BIG BUSINESS_ By RICHARD YAFFEE No one is quite sure how the bagel originated, nor even how it got its name, but of this there is no doubt: Sunday breakfast for American Jews, especially for New York Jews, has become almost unthinkable without this petrified doughnut, with or without lox and cream cheese (preferably with). And not only for Jews: church clubs now buy them for their Sunday breakfast, and there are special green ones for St. Patrick's Day. Some 300,000 of these hard-crusted, doughnut-shaped delicacies roll out of thirty-six bagel factories daily, double that amount for the Sunday breakfast trade, in New York City, Long Island and New Jersey (Pg. 25--ed.)--bakeries which employ only 250 workers, all members of a single union, all specialists in a trade that no other local or any other trade union performs. (...) The bagel makers turn up a disdainful nose at rival products competing for a place on the breakfast tables, like the "bialystoker roll," called "bialy" for short. This is a doughy, chewy, round affair, usually dotted with onions, and slightly depressed in the center. The greatest disdain, however, is for the "egg bagel" which they calim is not a bagel at all because it is not boiled before baking, and they would probably sue to strip the imitators of the hallowed name, of the name itself had not been in the public domain for so long. (...)(Pg. 28--ed.) Bagel Box produces some 70,000 bagels a week, and the bakers wear inscribed on their "T-shirts" the legend proclaiming their place of work to be the home of the "original onion water bagel," and showing a picture of a smiling onion wearing a bagel as a hat. --------------------------------------------------------------- DEPRESSION CAKE & SHLISHKES & NAHIT & FLUDEN DEPRESSION CAKE--737 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits SHLISHKES--24 Google hits NAHIT + JEWISH--111 Google hits, 60 Google Group hits FLUDEN--355 Google hits, 25 Google Group hits TAGLACH--24 Google hits, 3 Google Group hits TAYGLACH--100 Google hits, 19 Google Group hits TAIGLACH--212 Google hits, 52 Google Group hits TEIGLACH--240 Google hits, 18 Google Group hits (OED has 1903 for "teiglach") "Depression Cake" and "Shlishkes" and "Nahit" and "Fluden" are all not in the OED ("miserable on food"). (GOOGLE GROUPS) (Shlishkes) From: Ruth Heiges (heiges at ccsg.tau.ac.il) Subject: Re: Schliskas (Hungarian?) Newsgroups: rec.food.cuisine.jewish Date: 1997/09/08 J Freeman wrote: > I am looking for a recipe for Schliskas (not sure of the spelling). It > was made by my Hungarian grandmother. If anyone has a recipe for this, I > would surely appreciate. Thanks! Gil Marks ("The World of Jewish Cooking") gives _shlishkes_ as a variation on _kartoffel kloese_, Ashkenazic mashed-potato dumplings. He notes they are like _gnocchi_, but firmer and without the ridge patterns. (GOOGLE GROUPS) (Nahit) From: karen ann hohne (khohne at ix.netcom.com) Subject: Re: Nahit Newsgroups: rec.food.cuisine.jewish Date: 1998/02/01 In article <6b2thv$gn4 at news.dx.net>, "bobk" wrote: Here's the recipe for nahit from Claudia Roden's wonderful new book The Book of Jewish Food: "Nahit--Arbis Sweet Chickpeas This is traditionally served hot or cold to guests on the first Friday night after the birth of a baby son. Soak the chickpeas for at least an hour, then drain and simmer in fresh water for 1 1/2 hours, adding a little salt as they begin to soften. Serve with sugar or honey." (GOOGLE GROUPS)(Depression Cake) Poor Man's Cake (2) Collection ... Poor Man's Cake (YANKEE magazine) An old-fashioned dessert that was especially popular in the 1930s and is sometimes known as Depression Cake. ... rec.food.recipes - Aug 1, 2002 by Mary Victoria Parker - View Thread (1 article) "Depression Cake" A lovely moist cake, although beware that is does not rise terribly much. Good sort of thing for 'afternoon tea', if anybody else still partakes of that! ... alt.food.vegan - May 23, 2000 by Lucee - View Thread (1 article) Re: Rosy Spice Cake recipes ... or buttermilk) called Mother-in-Law Cake, which were also sometimes called Hard Times Cake, and I've seen Hard Times cakes also called Depression Cake, or even ... rec.food.cooking - Jun 4, 1998 by Diana Hamilton - View Thread (1 article) Re: Eggless chocolate cake was OT Food Allergy Help Here is my grandmother's Depression cake. It is made without eggs, milk, or butter, a spicecake that is still yummy today. In a ... rec.crafts.textiles.quilting - Jan 29, 2004 by Judy Grevenites - View Thread (8 articles) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Depression Cake) Chronicle Telegram - 6/28/1932 ...4 pints. MRS. M. MOORE, 4 16. East 'Elyria. DEPRESSION CAKE 1-2 cup shortening 2 cups.....ease. Lindbergh' referred to his black note book. "He described the boat that he had been.....CAKE pans. Add pineapple filling. Pour CAKE batter over this and. bake as layer CAKE.....iate in the evening a delicious birthday CAKE ?-.nd other refreshments were senvd. Mrs.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, June 28, 1932 903 k Chronicle Telegram - 7/7/1933 ...Pass inward -6 South American mountains "S DEPRESSION CAKE made of oals o3 Slip-knot 36.....with games after which ice -cream and1 CAKE v.-cre served. BRIEFS. The Grange will.....and third wedding anniversary. cream and CAKE were served. Ice Chicago and also.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, July 07, 1933 645 k (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Depression Cake) Favorite Recipes; In Our Family Breakfast Muffins Cinnamon Coffee Cake Oh So Good Cake Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 12, 1935. p. 8 (1 page): The following recipe, some call "Depression Cake," but as we didn't like the name "Depression," we call it "Oh, So Good." It is made without eggs or milk, and very economical: _Oh So Good Cake_ Mix together 1/2 cup shortening 1 cup sugar 1 1/2 cups water 3 squares chocolate or 6 tablespoons cocoa 1/2 teaspoon cinnamon 1/2 cup raisins Stir over fire until it boils. Let cool and add 2 cups flour 2 teaspoons baking powder salt vanilla. Bake in a shallow loaf pan in a moderate overn 350 degrees F. It needs no frosting. THE JEWISH EXAMINER PRIZE KOSHER RECIPE BOOK VOLUME I Edited by "BALABUSTA" Woman's Page Editor of _The Jewish Examiner_ Brooklyn, New York: The Judea Publishing Corporation 1937 Pg. 4: Potatonick (Potato Bread)...Refrigerator Rolls Pg. 16: Depression Cake By Mrs. Manuel Sarasky 821 Cassatt St., Pittsburgh, Pa. 2 eggs 1 cup oil 2 cups Jack Frost sugar 3 teaspoons baking powder 1 teaspoon lemon or orange extract 3 1/2 to 4 cups flour (dough slightly thicker than sponge cake) 2 cups water 3 tablespoons cocoa Beat yolks well, combine with sugar, fold in well-beaten egg whites, pour oil and mix thoroughly. Add soda, baking powder and fruit. Sift flour, add alternately water and flour until batter is fairly thick. Take about seven tablespoonfuls of batter, mix well with the cocoa, giving you two batters, light and dark. Now grease pan and pour on layer of light batter and dark batter alternately. Bake one hour. Pg. 18: Fluden By Mrs. L. Stein 675 E. 140th St., Bronx, N. Y. 6 glasses flour handful Jack Frost sugar pinch of salt 1 teaspoon baking powder 1 egg Mix these with enough cold water to make a not-too-soft dough 2 pounds walnuts (ground) 1 pound white raisins 4 glasses Jack Frost sugar 4 glasses crumbs of white bread 2 teaspoons cinnamon 2 lemons' juice vanilla jelly Cut the dough into 18 equal pieces. Roll one and spread out rather thickly in well greased pan. Oil the dough evenly on top. Pour about 2 teaspoons of mixture over the oiled dough. Pour over this a few drops of lemon juice and a few drops of vanilla. Roll and spread each piece of dough besides the first and the last, as thinly as possible. After repeating this procedure till the ninth piece of dough is used, make one full layer of thick cherry or raspberry jelly. Then, another piece of the dough, thinly rolled, oiled, a handful of the mixture, a few drops of lemon juice, vanilla, etc., until the last piece of dough is used (thickly) to cover it all. Heat stive 15 minutes before putting in cake. Bake one hour by slow light. Extinguish light and leave inside 20-30 minutes. When cold, cut into desired shapes. Wet each piece on top wioth cold water, lightly, and dip into sugar. Pg. 25: Taglach Pg. 46: Nahit (Russian Peas) By Mrs. R. M. Justir 1506 Sheridan Ave. No., Minneapolis, Minn. 1 pound Russian peas 1 tablespoon salt 1/4 teaspoon soda 2 tablespoons chicken fat 2 tablespoons flour 2 tablespoons Jack Frost sugar 1/2 pound brisket of beef hot water Place peas in kettle, add salt and hot water and let soak for 12 hours. Drain, return to kettle, cover with boiling water, cook for 15 minutes, add soda nad meat, and let cook slowly several hours until peas are tender. Melt chicken fat, add flour and sugar, let brown, add one cup of liquid from the peas, cook until thick and smooth. Pour over the peas, cook thoroughly, then place in casserole and bake in moderate oven half hour. Pg. 49: Shlishkas By Mrs. Rose Steinberg 1615 University Ave., Bronx, N. Y. 4 potatoes 1 cup flour salt to taste butter or fat 1 old roll or chale Cook potatoes in their jackets, then peel and grate them. Add flour, egg and salt, and make a dough. CUt slices of dough, knead them into long, thin rolls and cut into one-inch pieces. Then cook them (like noodles) in boiling water and drain. Grate the roll or chale, brown it in a pan with butter or fat, add the pieces and let them all brown or form crusts. Pg. 65: Old Fashioned Essic Flashe Pg. 73: Pesachdigge Sponge Cake Pg. 83: Milchica Soup From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Feb 15 02:02:39 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:02:39 -0600 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... Message-ID: Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. "Fry pan" one. "Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. Blank one. Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how much that matters. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 02:10:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:10:14 -0500 Subject: "Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!" (1955) Message-ID: PRISONER IN A CHINESE BAKERY--92 Google hits, 42 Google Groups hits This is a classic fortune cookie joke, perhaps of interest to Fred Shapiro. It was not coined by Alan King's 1964 book title. This line has been discussed on alt.usage.english and the Cecil Adams newsgroup. The latest LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization helps. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery Author: King, Alan, 1927-; Shurman, Jack, Publication: New York, Dutton, 1964 Document: English : Book Libraries Worldwide: 386 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) CITYSIDE Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 4, 1955. p. 2 (1 page): CITY LIMITS--Story is going around about a customer in a Chinese restaurant who opened one of those fortune cookies. Written in red ink on the slip inside was: "Help! I am being held prisoner by the Hong Kong Noodle Co." Troubles Of A Sleeping Beauty LESLIE LIEBER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 4, 1956. p. K17 (2 pages) Pg. 19: Nor will producers soon forget the night Kim was supposed to sit on the bed and open Chinese fortune cookies--the kind that contain slips of paper with prophecies like, "You will make a long voyage." As a gag, the script called for her to read, "Help, I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!" Unfortunately, though, the cookie was empty. Disconcerted, the girl on camera forgot her lines and just ate the cookie. But two minutes later, after curling up in bed and switching off the lights, she suddenly remembered. Just before the program went off the air, she let out a scream of distress: "Help!!! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!!!" Listeners stayed awake a long time figuring that one out. (The program was "Count Sheep" with Nancy Berg--ed.) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 15 03:09:15 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... In-Reply-To: <402ED33F.6000503@visi.com> Message-ID: Since Methodists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, I don't get the ethnic link. What more likely matters is the regional origin of the members of this particular congregation. I suspect they're one or two generations out of the South and South Midland, if DARE and our list contributors are on track. BTW, I remember this area in Minneapolis, and this church may be largely black. Is that the link you're driving at? At 08:02 PM 2/14/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin >Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. > >"Fry pan" one. > >"Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. > >Blank one. > >Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue >to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how >much that matters. > > >-- >Dan Goodman >Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or >http://dsgood.blogspot.com >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 03:34:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:34:54 -0500 Subject: Margarita (1954); OT: Popcorn and the Movies (1945) Message-ID: MARGARITA I've posted earlier for "Margarita," but these latest LOS ANGELES TIMES citations are worth a look. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. CITYSIDE GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 8, 1954. p. 2 (1 page): ROSARITO BEACH--In the afternoon you sip a Margarita and gaze pensively across the wide strand. This is a sort of Mexican daiquiri belted hard by the international set at Acapulco. Tequila, Cointreau and lemon juice. Salt the rim of the glass like you sugar a daiquiri. They carry a big stick gently. When sipped in the afternoon, they mellow the memory of morning and tinsel the prospect of evening. I get the impression they were named for a sultry lady who was the toast of the foreign colony, although margarita is also Spanish for daisy. And it figures. (...) THE LOBSTER taquitos go well with the Margarita, very little hot sauce. 2. CITYSIDE GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 8, 1955. p. 2 (1 page): Was introduced to the Margarita, tequila's answer to the Martini, while in Mexico some weeks ago. Now informed the Margarita was invented by Mr. Johnny Durlesser, head barman of the Tail o' the Cock, in 1937. --------------------------------------------------------------- OT: POPCORN AND THE MOVIES Andy Smith, famous editor of the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, was in the NEW YORK TIMES on February 9th: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/09/nyregion/09RUBI.html Samuel M. Rubin, Vendor, Dies at 85; Put Fresh Popcorn in Theaters By DOUGLAS MARTIN Published: February 9, 2004 Samuel M. Rubin, who was known as "Sam the Popcorn Man" for making popcorn almost as popular in New York City movie theaters as jokes and kisses, died on Thursday. He was 85. He died in Boynton Beach, Fla., his daughter, Karen Rubin, said. Movies had prospered without popcorn until the Great Depression, when theater owners scrambled to make up for reduced ticket prices by turning to "audible edibles." The appetite of moviegoers was so great that from 1934 to 1940, the nation's annual popcorn harvest grew from 5 million to 100 million pounds. Marty Winter, who worked for Mr. Rubin and in turn employed him over their careers of more than 60 years in the movie concession business, recalled that Mr. Rubin saw popcorn being made in Oklahoma City on a visit around 1930 and started selling it at concessions he controlled when he returned to New York. But Mr. Rubin's daughter and another longtime business colleague, Carl Levine, said it was not until the early 1950's that Mr. Rubin began to sell popcorn in a major way. At the time, his company, ABC Consolidated, now part of the Ogden Corporation, had the refreshments concession for major movie chains in the New York metropolitan area, including RKO, Brandt and Loews. Andrew F. Smith, the author of "Popped Culture: The Social History of Popcorn in America," said New York theaters were among the last to embrace popcorn, because it had a small profit margin, popping machines were a fire hazard and the snack seemed a bit déclassé. Charles Cretors, the president of C. Cretors & Company, which has made popping machines since 1885, agreed that New York was late to the popping game and suggested that part of the reason may have been that early popping oils contained lard, which is not kosher. Mr. Smith said that popcorn was being sold in some New York theaters by the 1940's and that if Mr. Rubin began selling it in earnest in the early 1950's, he "was certainly not the first." But Mr. Rubin was very likely the first to pop corn in machines on a widespread basis in theaters. He had begun by popping the kernels in Long Island City and trucking the result to theaters, but quickly realized that the smell of popping corn would not exactly hurt sales. Improvements in machines had lessened the fire danger. A spokeswoman for the Popcorn Board in Chicago confirmed that ABC was a very large buyer of popcorn in the 1950's. (...) The TIMES receives the evidence, then ignores it? Mr. Rubin was very likely NOT the first to pop corn in machines on a widespread basis in theaters. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Leeside LEE SHIPPEY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 24, 1945. p. A4 (1 page): Ray A. Collins has a peeve against those movie theaters in which popcorn and candy bars are vended. Farmers Market... With Fred Beck Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 6, 1946. p. 2 (1 page): Of course it is almost impossible to get tickets to anything--and too much popcorn eating goes on at the movies. STANDING ROOM ONLY Groucho Marx. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 17, 1946. p. C14 (2 pages) Pg. 16: MANY people are living in the balconies of movie theaters. The loges are ideal for sleeping and so are most of the pictures. In the lobby, you can purchase popcorn, Sen-Sen, chocolate bars and peanuts. The Lighter Side HENRY McLEMORE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 20, 1946. p. 12 (1 page): I have friends who speak just as knowingly of the popcorn at the Empire, the candy at the Cameo, and the chocolate cracwers (?--ed.) at the Bijou as world travelers used to discuss the pheasant at Hoercher's in Berlin, the venison at Lippert's in Prague, and the steak and kidney pie at the Colony in New York. Popcorn and the Movies JOHN H NASH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 23, 1946. p. A4 (1 page): Popcorn is an American institution. So are the movies. The combination of both is the latest in public entertainment. Quite a few theaters feature in their lounge the sale of fresh popcorn. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 03:58:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:58:58 -0500 Subject: Gigi Salad Message-ID: GIGI SALAD--160 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits This is not in the LOS ANGELES TIMES so far. There's a recent book on the Palm Restaurant that mentions the salad's West Coast origin. Gigi is no Caesar, but who is? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where Steak and Lobster Reign By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 24, 1986. p. LI25 (1 page): At the Hedges Inn it might be a good idea to avoid dishes named after people--they are uniformly insulting. And that also goes for Gigi's salad, a melange of chopped ingredients that included dreadful tomatoes, and the greasy steak a la Stone with peppers and onions. THE PALM RESTAURANT COOKBOOK: RECIPES AND STORIES FROM THE CLASSIC AMERICAN STEAKHOUSE by Brigit Legere Binns Philadelphia: Running Press 2003 Pg. 51: Gigi Salad Never has a simple dish stirred so much controversy. Rumors are rife, and only the true Palmerati know the difference between a "regular Gigi" and a "West (Pg. 52--ed.) Coast Gigi." Named for the late, great maestro himself (Gigi Delmaestro, West Hollywood Palm general manager for twenty-seven years), this salad is ordered more than any other single dish at the Palm. True Palm regulars never order "Gigi salad." Just ask for a "Gigi." (GOOGLE) http://www.nbc10.com/recipes/2676420/detail.html Gigi Salad Never has a simple dish stirred so much controversy. Rumors are rife, and only the true Palmerati know the difference between a "regular Gigi" and a "West Coast Gigi." Named for the late, great maestro himself (Gigi Delmaestro, West Hollywood Palm general manager for twenty-seven years), this salad is ordered more than any other single dish at the Palm. True Palm regulars never order "Gigi salad." Just ask for a "Gigi." - 1 pound green beans, ends trimmed - 1 pound ripe beefsteak tomatoes, cored and roughly chopped into 1/2-inch chunks, including seeds and juice - 1 medium onion, cut into 1/2-inch dice - 3/4 cup Basic Vinaigrette - 1/4 pound bacon, cooked until crisp, then drained - 6 jumbo (U-12) shrimp or 12 medium shrimp, cooked, peeled, and cut into 1/2-inch lengths In a saucepan of rapidly boiling salted water, cook the green beans for 4 minutes. Drain immediately, and rinse under abundant cold water until the beans stop steaming. Shake to remove excess water; then spread on a double thickness of paper towels to dry briefly. Cut into 1 1/2-inch lengths. In a large bowl, combine the beans, tomatoes, onion, and 1/2 cup vinaigrette. Toss until evenly coated, adding the remaining vinaigrette only if necessary. Mound on chilled salad plates. Crumble an equal amount of the bacon over each salad, and scatter with a few pieces of the shrimp. Serve at once. Variation for the West Coast Gigi: Garnish each salad with a hard-boiled egg, peeled and cut into wedges, and 1/2 Hass avocado, peeled and sliced. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 15 04:08:36 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:08:36 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402130720.i1D7KYBj031785@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan regardless of what it's made of? Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Indigo Som >Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I >say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Feb 15 06:05:47 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:05:47 -0600 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... In-Reply-To: <20040215033043.69EAA5CA5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Since Methodists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, I don't get the > ethnic link. It lowers the odds that they're German, Scandinavian, Irish, or Eastern European. What more likely matters is the regional origin of the > members of this particular congregation. I suspect they're one or two > generations out of the South and South Midland, if DARE and our list > contributors are on track. My guess would be three or four generations out of North Midland, or longer ago from New England or Upstate New York. BTW, I remember this area in Minneapolis, and > this church may be largely black. Is that the link you're driving at? Hennepin Avenue United Methodist is mostly white, I believe. By the way, this area has been changing; moving upscale. >>Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin >>Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. >> >>"Fry pan" one. >> >>"Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. >> >>Blank one. >> >>Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue >>to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how >>much that matters. >> >> >>-- >>Dan Goodman >>Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or >>http://dsgood.blogspot.com >>Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > > > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 07:52:07 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 02:52:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of bagel (1916) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro found 1930. 2 Jan. 1916 _Fort Wayne(IN) Journal-Gazette_ the Sunday Magazine section, (no page), col. 2, a whole page of "The Immigrant in America" /The Story of A Yiddish Family Exodus/by Sholom Aleichem.(copyright 1915 by the Press Publishing Co.)/Authorized translation by Marion Weinstein. /OUR CROWD-- <> Does this still count, seeing as how it's a translation? (And, if it does, why doesn't "pizza" in the 1800's? count :) SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 08:56:27 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:56:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "pitchmen" (1918) Message-ID: OED and M-W have 1926. 14 July, 1918 _The Indianapolis Sunday Star_ 25/8 (classified ads) <> SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 09:15:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:15:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "pitch and putt course" 1930 Message-ID: OED has 1963 1 June, 1939 _Nevada State Journal(Reno)_ 5/4 <> SC From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:13:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:13:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gimmick"? In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I'm not sure what the usage means here, but this may be an antedating of the word "gimmick": gimmick (OED 1925, HDAS 1922) 1920 _Wash. Post_ 6 Oct. 12 (ProQuest) World Series Notes ... An overcoatless one [baseball fan without an overcoat] produced a capacious "medicine" bottle from his hip and drank ostentatiously. Instantly from every side came calls of "Frank," "ohn," "Charley," "Archibald" et al. "Gimmick" brought immediate recognition, but nothing from the prescription. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:16:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:16:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gimmick" In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: gimmick (OED 1926, HDAS 1922) 1921 _N.Y. Times_ 15 May 71 (ProQuest) Being a Possible Questionnaire for Submission to Applicants for the Position of Assistant Stage Doorman. ... What is the starflop? A startrap? A vampire trap? A gimmick? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:23:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:23:16 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Gimmick" In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: gimmick (OED 1926, HDAS 1922) 1911 _Sandusky_ (Ohio) _Star Journal_ 1 May 5 (Newspaperarchive.com) SEASON FOR AGENTS. 'Tis now the agent wanders forth To sell his fruitless trees, And patent things to mow the lawn, And dope for honey bees. He's got a gimick for the churn, A patent cellar door, An automatic cistern pump, A salve to heal a sore. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 17:54:32 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:54:32 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879 Message-ID: OED has 1887. M-W 1891. Newspaperarchive incorrectly attributes the following to the Butte(MT) Miner, but it is actually-- 5 April, 1879 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye 6/4 (Reprinted from the Boston Herald) Titled:Concord Reminiscences/About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson. <> A second, interesting cite is from 2 Nov. 1882 _Ft. Wayne(IN) Daily Gazette_ 4/5 (but reprinted from the Cincinnati Enquirer. Titled "A Man with a Bracelet" <> SC From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 19:04:32 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:04:32 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimless" In-Reply-To: <200402151754.i1FHsaE18783@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: victimless (OED 1965) 1938 _Frederick_ (Maryland) _Post_ 1 Aug. (Newspaperarchive.com) The three are involved in the victimless crime wave. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 21:04:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:04:28 -0500 Subject: Palm Beach Salad Message-ID: Greetings from the El Panama Hotel in Panama City, where the women are gorgeous and the weather is warm and the women are gorgeous. Also, the women are gorgeous. GIMMICK--Didn't I post that NY TIMES citation about a year ago? BAGEL--Under a different spelling, OED has "bagel" from Zangwill in 1892. PALM BEACH SALAD--Lots of American chains are here. The hotel menu didn't have much, but it does have a "Palm Beach Salad"--chicken, pineapple, celery, and almonds. There aren't too many Google hits for it. Gotta go...the women are gorgeous. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 15 22:12:36 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:12:36 -0600 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879--Note: (Yankee) Dood(le) Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0500 2/15/04, Sam Clements wrote: >5 April, 1879 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye 6/4 > >(Reprinted from the Boston Herald) > >Titled:Concord Reminiscences/About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson. > ><when a very small boy. He wore long curls, and the Concord boys >plagued him in the usual tough way of boys. They called him "Sissy" >and "Yankee Doodle," and finally they ridiculed the poor lad till he >petitioned for a barber to cut off his locks.>> Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot of work on this term). Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 15 22:49:55 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:49:55 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879--Note: (Yankee) Dood(le) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin >of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot >of work on this term). So it's "Yankee Doodle Dandy" in the song, > "Yankee Doodle" = "dandy", > "doodle" = "dandy", > "dude" = "dandy"? It seems believable. Is there decisive evidence? I don't remember seeing this derivation presented before. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 00:03:43 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:03:43 -0500 Subject: Panama Cookbooks Message-ID: A trip here in Panama City to the local supermarket didn't turn up anything new; certainly nothing that you wouldn't see in New York. The huge supermarket here is REY. Go to www.smrey.com. The Burger King and McDonald's restaurants are pretty much the same. One local hamburger stand sells a "tropic burger"..."Hot dogs" are sold all over here. I'll have to ask why they're called that. The internet is cheap here in Panama. Did I see this is 50 cents an hour? LA COCINA CLASICA DE PANAMA por Rosita Cordoba 160 pages, paperback November 2002 This appears to be self-published. It's just all recipes. Some drawings, but no photos. Let me know if anyone wants it at $5. (They use US currency here.) Espanol/English COCINA PANAMENA 2A EDICION CON RECETAS NUEVAS! 2ND EDITION WITH NEW RECIPES INCLUDED! Distribuidora Lewis, S. A. Printed in Spain 110 pages, hardcover no date (1984?, from ISBN--ed.) $20 Nice color photos. Again, just recipes and no history at all. RICE Pg. 14: Rice with raisins Pg. 15: Rice with shrimp Pg. 16: Rice with chicken Pg. 17: Congo peas and coconut rice Pg. 18: Rice with baby clams Pg. 19: Rice with squid Pg. 20: Rice with dried salt cod and Coconut BEVERAGES Pg. 22: Chicheme Pg. 23: Egg nog (cooked) Pg. 23: Egg nog (uncooked) Pg. 24: Barley rice drink Pg. 25: Pineapple and rice drink Pg. 26: Sprouted corn drink Pg. 27: "Loja" drink MEATS AND POULTRY Pg. 30: Beef in orange sauce Pg. 31: Meat balls in wine sauce Pg. 32: Roast pork Pg. 33: Liver with orange sauce Pg. 34: Dry meat Pg. 35: Pickled pork feet Pg. 36: Christmas pork roast Pg. 37: Chicken with coconut sauce Pg. 38: Tripe panamanian style Pg. 39: Shredded beef Pg. 40: Tongue in wine sauce Pg. 41: Meat with tomato sauce Pg. 42: Stuffed peppers SALADS Pg. 44: Russian or party salad Pg. 45: Avocado or shrimp salad Pg. 46: Yucca (Cassava) salad Pg. 47: Avocado mousse Pg. 48: Chokoe's pie Pg. 49: Ripe plantains pie Pg. 50: Yucca (Cassava) Cake Pg. 51: Stuffed tomato salad Pg. 52: Eggplant pie FLOUR Pg. 54: Egg bread Pg. 55: Panamanian tamalaes Pg. 57: Tamal cacerole Pg. 58: Garden fresh corn tamales Pg. 59: Fresh Corn patties (tortillas) Pg. 60: Bollos changos Pg. 61: Fried bread (hojaldras) Pg. 62: Filled yucca (Fritters) Pg. 63: "Otoe" fritters Pg. 64: "Name" fritters Pg. 65: Doughnuts, Panamanian style Pg. 66: Pasta and tuna salad SEAFOOD Pg. 68: Pickled fish Pg. 69: Roasted red snapper Pg. 70: Shrimp ceviche Pg. 71: Shrimp stew Pg. 72: Corvina ceviche Pg. 73: Corvina with cappers sauce Pg. 74: Cooked seafood in sauce Pg. 75: Rice and seafood stew Pg. 76: Fish with sweetcorn filling Pg. 77: Potato and prawn pie DESSERTS Pg. 80: Nance custard with coconut and fresh corn Pg. 81: Bread pudding Pg. 82: Sopa borraca Pg. 83: Sopa de gloria Pg. 84: Avocado and cheese cake Pg. 85: Cashew fruits marmelade Pg. 86: Tangerine souffle Pg. 87: Nance mousse Pg. 88: Mango mousse Pg. 89: Bienmesabe Pg. 90: Rice pudding with milk and cocoa Pg. 91: Coconut and papaya sweets Pg. 92: Suripico Pg. 93: Coconut squares Pg. 94: Otoe pudding Pg. 95: Plantain pudding Pg. 96: Pumpkin pudding Pg. 97: Palm fruit flan Pg. 98: "Sighs" Pg. 99: Sweetened plantain mounds Pg. 100: Alfajores Pg. 101: Sweetened pumpkin squash Pg. 102: Coconut cookies, panamanian style SOUPS Pg. 104: Chicken soup--stew Pg. 105: Panamanian broth Pg. 106: Beef foot soup Pg. 107: Gallo pinto Pg. 108: Plantain soup Pg. 109: Meatball soup Pg. 110: Seren From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 02:08:12 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:08:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 Message-ID: HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find it in ADS archives. The reason I wanted to find an earlier cite is to prove absolutely that the phrase didn't originate during the Scopes Trial(1925). Using newspaperarchive, 8 Feb. 1923 _Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram Page obscured, col. 3-4. Text under picture of Ms. Cheeseborough: <> SC From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 16 02:23:01 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:23:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f431$bb89c910$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 09:08:12PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find it in ADS archives. It's in OED, sense 35. This is an antedating, thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 16 02:40:17 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:40:17 -0600 Subject: "Dude" from (Yankee) Dood(le) Dandy--(was: antedating of "sissy" 1879) Message-ID: >At 5:49 PM -0500 2/15/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin >>of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot >>of work on this term). > >So it's "Yankee Doodle Dandy" in the song, > "Yankee Doodle" = "dandy", > >"doodle" = "dandy", > "dude" = "dandy"? > >It seems believable. Is there decisive evidence? I don't remember seeing >this derivation presented before. > >-- Doug Wilson A May 1881 article in _Clothier and Furnisher_, vol. 13, no. 10, pp. 27-28 (spotted by Barry Popik; reprinted in _Comments on Etymology_, April 1997, pp. 2-3 and then Oct. 1998, pp. 1-2) is titled "Definition Of The Word Dude" and says: "...It is not exactly slang, but has not rooted itself in the language and has not, therefore, a precise and accepted meaning. The word pronounced in two syllables as if spelled 'doody' has been in occasional use in some New England towns for more than a score of years. It was probably born as a diminutive of dandy, and applied to the feeble personators of the real fop. ..." *** From the above passage it looks like "Yankee Doodle Dandy" produced a blend of "dood(le)" and "dandy" to "doody" in some New England towns prior to 1883, with shortening to "dude" (one syllable) by 1883. Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 16 03:42:40 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:42:40 -0500 Subject: Caesarean section--Julius Caesar was evidently not delivered this way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a Web review which looks reputable: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/cesarean_1.html It has some references. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 03:59:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:59:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "goody-goody" adj. 1867 Message-ID: M-W and OED have 1871. Using newspaperarchive: 23 Dec. 1867 _Edinburgh(Scotland) Evening Courant 6/1 (a book review) <> SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Feb 16 04:18:31 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:18:31 -0800 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f431$bb89c910$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I don't think these count, but for what it's worth... The Times, Wednesday, Jan 27, 1847; pg. 5; Issue 19457; col E Lyceum Theatre. Category: Reviews ... The pompous language of the Indians is ludicrously burlesqued, and from the sagacious "Downy Beaver," acted with becoming gravity by Mr. Bender, to the jealous "Monkey's uncle," played with furious irritability by Mr. Oxberry ... The Times, Thursday, Jan 10, 1856; pg. 5; Issue 22260; col E The Song Of Hiawatha. Category: Arts and Entertainment !> (From Punch) ^^^^^^^^^^ ... With their Chief, the clean Efmatthews, With the growling Downy Beaver, With the valiant Monkey's Uncle, Came the gracious Mari-Kee-Lee, ... -jk At 06:08 PM 2/15/04, you wrote: >HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find >it in ADS archives. > >The reason I wanted to find an earlier cite is to prove absolutely that >the phrase didn't originate during the Scopes Trial(1925). > >Using newspaperarchive, > >8 Feb. 1923 _Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram Page obscured, col. 3-4. Text >under picture of Ms. Cheeseborough: > ><from coquettish Edith Russell Cheseborough, Boston society girl--"Frame >it," she told her Harvard admirer, William L. Lawrence, referring to the >marriage license he had obtained. "The nuptial idea is a joke." she told >Lawrence. But Lawrence can't see it. "If that's a joke I'm a monkey's >uncle.">> > >SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 04:36:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:36:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "goombah" 1954 Message-ID: M-W and OED both use 1968 as they don't accept TV/movie cites, only printed ones(I suppose). Even though many of us watched Rocky Graziano on the Martha Raye(premiered Sept. 1955) show and heard the word. 2 Dec. 1954 _Coshocton(OH) Tribune_ 8/6 (newspaperarchive) [A story on Italian boxers] <<"I will beat this Giambra," he insists, "and prove Italy still produces fine fighters." It's hard to see how he can be proved wrong. Joey is a goombah, too!>> SC From pds at VISI.COM Mon Feb 16 05:52:18 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:52:18 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <20040213055019.F00214CD7@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2/13/2004 12:50 AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >I believe the trademark was registered after 1990 (one can look up the >exact date at USPTO). Thanks for the suggestion. Chicago Hamburger Co. filed to register "Slyders", "Super Slyder", and "Sneezy Slyder" in 1983 but abandoned them a year later. White Castle filed to register "Slyders" in 1993. Google Groups has a post to net.general on 11/4/1982 in which the author maintains that "slider" is reserved for White Castle "hamburgers" [quotation marks in the original]. CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 3/26/1985: "A White Castle hamburger stand without the distinctive blue lettering on its tower? It's like a slider without onions." The TRIBUNE archives (1985 to present) give 65 hits for [slider AND "White Castle"], but only three hits for [slider AND hamburger AND NOT "White Castle"], and only three hits for [slyder]. However in most cases the relevant terms do not occur in the abstracts and I'm too cheap to buy the full articles. Finally, thanks to all who responded to my questions, and sorry about including "Gut--bomb" in the heading but not in the message. I had answered my own gut-bomb question by referring to RHDAS, but neglected to edit the heading. So unless you'd like to try antedating Lighter's 1969 cite, never mind. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 16 15:40:41 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:40:41 -0500 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <12a.3b7608e7.2d5f4798@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 14, 2004 at 04:42:48AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > --------------------------------------------- > AFTERPARTY > > AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits > AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits > > I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an "afterparty"? Sleep? > Are there after-recipes for it? > WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March 17, 1980 in the > WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. The OED entry, which should be appearing in the next batch or two, has a first quote of 1961. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 21:37:31 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: No Bagels at Panama Canal, Panama hat myth again Message-ID: NO BAGELS AT PANAMA CANAL Today was the day for Panama locks. But there were no bagels in the Canal Zone--none at all. Just locks. Go figure. --------------------------------------------------------------- PANAMA HAT MYTH AGAIN My local tour guide said that Teddy Roosevelt tried on a hat, and that was how the "Panama hat" (really from Ecuador) got its name. I had heard the same story in Ecuador. Maybe the OED online has to be cheaper? --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. Carnival starts this week...Panama`s 100th anniversary celebration was a month ago. RED DEVIL--The name of the local buses. They`re American school buses, now painted (usually) red. The drivers need lots of passengers to make money, so they drive like devils. NIKOS CAFE--Our lunch spot and a big cafeteria chain here, since 1955. See www.nikoscafe.com. MIDNIGHT CHOCOLATE--An ice cream dish served at Nikos. There are about 700 Google hits. I couldn't order "midnight chocolate" because our lunch stop was at noon. OREJA (EARS), CANONES (CANNONS), JOSEFINA, DIPLOMATICO--Some pastries served at Nikos. The cannons are loaded with guava jelly. Josphines were sold, but I didn't see Napoleons. POTABLE WATER--Everyone here mentions "portable water." RASPADO (SHAVED ICE)--The local name for a snow cone. It's served with concentrated milk on top. MOLA--I'll beat OED`s 1941 date when I return. TRES LECHES--I had a fabulous one yesterday. Unfortunately, I don't know when I'll have national library time to check local cookbooks. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 21:57:22 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:57:22 -0500 Subject: monkey's uncle; Toothpast back into the tube (1940, 1951) Message-ID: MONKEY`S UNCLE That`s also in MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN: Author: Parton, James, 1822-1891. Title: The humorous poetry of the English language : from Chaucer to Saxe ... with notes, explanatory and biographical. Publication date: 1856. Collection: Making of America Books Page 502 - 1 term matching "monkey s uncle" With the growling Downy Beaver, With the valiant Monkey`s Uncle,... --------------------------------------------------------------- TOOTHPASTE BACK INTO THE TUBE I was brushing my teeth and thinking about world culture when I thought of this one. OED has 1975? The 1951 hit comes up in several newspapers, as does the 1940 hit. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ironwood Daily Globe - 5/11/1951 ...would be like trying to push TOOTHPASTE BACK into a TUBE." HP said the government is.....today that "trying to push all prices BACK to pro-Korea days.....that if the government were to push prices BACK to where they were a year ago it would.....patrols. But there was continual movement BACK of Communist lines. The reds were.. Ironwood, Michigan Friday, May 11, 1951 884 k Bridgeport Telegram - 5/11/1951 ...a would be like trying, to -push TOOTHPASTE BACK into a TUBE. 1 He said the government is.....told Congress today that to push all prices BACK to pro-Korea dr.....that1 if the government were to push prices BACK to where they were a year ago it would.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, May 11, 1951 749 k Bridgeport Telegram - 5/11/1951 ...a wciuld.be like trying to push TOOTHPASTE BACK Into a TUBE. Ha said tho government IH.....patrols. But there was continual movement BACK of communist lines. The Reds were.....minefields. Automatic weapon fire turned BACK small Allied patrols probing too close.....MunMim and Uljongbu. Communist t'lre forced BACK a South Korean patrol on tho extreme.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, May 11, 1951 775 k Sheboygan Press - 3/5/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? The modern world.....you should send for this 'edition. This book contains 254 pages printed on thin Bible.....that are named in the Bible the longest book and shortest verse, and many, other.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, March 05, 1940 763 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 3/6/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? Man Do you know your.....what I mean, It was a vague picture in the BACK of Ann's mind, this pleasant living, an.. Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, March 06, 1940 698 k Sheboygan Press - 3/5/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? The modern world.....you should send for this 'edition. This book contains 254 pages printed on thin Bible.....that are named in the Bible the longest book and shortest verse, and many, other.. Coshocton Tribune - 11/17/1954 ...they'll be tougher than putting TOOTHPASTE BACK in a TUBE. But Ohio State a better.....themselves. Yale over Harvard Bouocing BACK itrong. Also: Columbia over Rutgen.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, November 17, 1954 612 k Dixon Telegraph - 3/1/1949 ...is tougher than putting TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE. A group of South Africans.....detail, stripingly slim skirt with inverted BACK pleat for stride Black. Brown. Green. te.. Dixon, Illinois Tuesday, March 01, 1949 638 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 22:42:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:42:29 -0500 Subject: Spanish slang site (listed by country); National Library Message-ID: PANAMA SLANG http://www.jergasdehablahispana.org/panama.htm This web site has Spanish slang, listed by country. Is it any good? The above is for Panama. If anyone wants me to check on these (with Panama and the United States, you never know what could fall into English), let me know soon. Any food terms on the site that I should be aware of? --------------------------------------------------------------- NATIONAL LIBRARY The National Library is the Biblioteca Nacional Ernesto J. Castillero. From a quick cookbook check for the earliest ones (arethese in the states?): Panamá. Dirección General de Cultura y Bibliotecas Hands across the cooking pot / Dirección General de Cultura y Bibliotecas. -- Panamá : Imprenta Nacional, 1952 250 p. : il. Cocina Panamá-autores 641.5P187 Panamá. Ministerio de Educación. Escuela Profesional Maíz, platano y arroz / Escuela Profesional. -- Panamá : Imprenta Nacional, 1946 77 p. ; 16 cm. Recetarios Cocina panameña Panamá-autores Binal 641.5 P191 González de Espener, Manonguita Cocina chiricana / Manonguita G. de Espener p.18 . Tierra y dos mares. -- Año 3, no.14 (1963). -- Panamá :. -- Litho-Impresora Panamá Economía doméstica Gastronomía Cocina chiricana Cocina panameña Panamá-autores Moncayo de Pazmiño, Amparo Tamales / Amparo de Pazmiño p.32 Tierra y dos mares. -- Año 5, no.25 (1965). -- Panamá :. -- Litho-Impresora Panamá Tamales Cocina panameña Panamá-autores From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 01:57:45 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:57:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gangster" In-Reply-To: <7E1046BB.18A58989.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: gangster (OED 1896) 1888 _Portsmouth_ (Ohio) _Times_ 11 Aug. 2/2 (Newspaperarchive.com) THE story that the TIMES man is delinquent for water rent is too improbable even for a gangster to believe. We have paid our water rent in advance. To falsely report citizens delinquent will not help the gang. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 02:20:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:20:03 -0500 Subject: Hojaldres; Sopa Borracha; Chinese Pizza Message-ID: HOJALDRA HOJALDRES--3,520 Google hits, 156 Google Group hits My restuarant had this name as the Spanish and English description of the dish. Not in the OED, of course. From the free FOCUS PANAMA, vol. 29, no. 2, August 2003, pg. 69 description of my restaurant tonight: _EL TRAPICHE_--On Via Argentina, specializes in Panamanian cooking in the style of the Central Provinces. The decor motif is a "trapiche", the Panamanian name for an old-world sugar mill, still used in some country areas to squeeze the juice of guarapo from sugar cane. This restaurant is poular and is highly recommended for visitors interested in getting to know the (Pg. 71--ed.) country. Specialities you might like to try are: sandwiches en _hojaldra_ (flour fritters with meat or chicken fillings), _mondongo_ (seasoned tripe), _gallo pinto_ (rice and bean casserole). (GOOGLE)(Another cite for the above--ed.) http://www.travel-to-panama.com/Travel-to-Panama/art-Panama%20restaurants.htm EL TRAPICHE— On Via Argentina, specializes in Panamanian cooking in the style of the Central Provinces. The decor motif is a “trapiche”, the Panamanian name for an old-world sugar mill, still used in some country areas to squeeze the juice or guarapo from sugar cane. This restaurant is popular and is highly recommended for visitors interested in getting to know the country. Specialities you might like to try are; sandwiches en hojaldra (flour fritters with meat or chicken fillings), mondongo (seasoned tripe), gallo pinto (rice and bean casserole). (GOOGLE)(Excellent sites--ed.) http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/9512/hojaldres.html http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/9512/e_hojaldres.html http://www.patrimonio-gastronomico.com/panreposteria_c.shtml?idboletin=129&idseccion=416 --------------------------------------------------------------- SOPA BORRACHA SOPA BORRACHA--331 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits Intoxicated soup? Another typical Panamanian dish. Not in the OED. (GOOGLE) http://www.travel-to-panama.com/Travel-to-Panama/art-Panama%20restaurants.htm LAS TINAJAS— A piece of the countryside translated to the city . . . an oasis of flavor and folklore downtown, where you can buy and enjoy handicraft from all over Panama. This is a restaurant offering creole food in comfortable and elegant surroundings. Carimañolas, frituras, tamales, sopa borracha (translation: intoxicated soup) and many more are available at very reasonable prices. International food is also featured. Shows with typical dance groups are presented Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Closed Sundays. (GOOGLE)(An excellent site--ed.) http://www.arecetas.com/panama/ (GOOGLE GROUPS) Al and Ad's Wedding Summary--What Worked--I ... party. Everyone had a wonderful time--and enjoyed the traditional Panamanian wedding dessert (sopa borracha--cake SOAKED in rum). ... soc.couples.wedding - 6 Oct 1996 por AlandAd - Ver la conversación (1 artículo) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHINESE PIZZA There`s a Chinatown here and Chinese have been arriving in large numbers to Panama City. The Restaurante Fu Yuan offers this: Galleta con Cebollina Chinese Pizza From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 02:37:55 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:37:55 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <00a001c3f379$62eac010$3bae8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan regardless of >what it's made of? > >Benjamin Barrett If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. (I have some in each category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not for the others. Larry > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Indigo Som > >>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I >>say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 03:42:31 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:42:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Situation Comedy" In-Reply-To: <200402170157.i1H1voE19717@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: situation comedy (OED 1953) 1921 _Atlanta Constitution_ 5 June 39 (Newspaperarchive.com) Don't waste your time writing slap stick farce. That type of comedy is easy to write, but difficult to sell. ... Rather try to write a situation comedy of a refined type. 1925 _Oshkosh_ (Wisconsin) _Daily Northwestern_ 11 Apr. 11 (Newspaperarchive.com) Depending as it does on putting over farcical situation comedy rather than broad gags and "hokum," the picture has called for an excellent cast to play the various roles in a skilful manner. 1931 _Key West Citizen_ 3 Sept. 4 "Situation comedy is the only dependable form of screen humor," says Douglas MacLean, associate producer of Radio Pictures' comedy, "Too Many Cooks." 1936 _Bismarck Tribune_ 28 Nov. 2 (Newspaperarchive.com) The show will feature situation comedy, with a thin thread of a plot being carried forward from week to week. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 03:47:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:47:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Situation Comedy" In-Reply-To: <200402170157.i1H1voE19717@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: situation comedy (OED 1953) 1912 _L.A. Times_ 8 Apr. II5 (ProQuest) His scene in the closing act, at the lunch counter, is genuinely funny. It contains situation comedy, and with the assistance of Charles Dudley and Madison Smith, Mr. Cawthorne gets it over in big fashion. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 04:22:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:22:10 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040214122926.00afae68@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0500 2/14/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Maybe that's where it originated (I have no idea), but the few people I >know who've used it have no Italian ancestry, so they picked it up >somewhere. I'm under the impression that it caught on because it avoids >the "ageism" associated with "grandma." > > >At 08:43 AM 2/14/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were >>simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this >>is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. >> >>dInIs >> Is there a connection between "nonna" and "nanny"? That has been the standard label (and name) for a maternal grandmother in at least one Jewish (and non-Italian) family for generations. Note that the aforementioned "Nana" in Peter Pan was actually a nanny (as well as a sheepdog), but not a grandmother. The AHD offers two meanings for "nana", 'grandmother' and 'nanny', and attributes it to "baby-talk origin", without mentioning Ital. "nonna". larry From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 04:54:11 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:54:11 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402170237.i1H2boAt017026@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: That makes a lot more sense and is probably what Indigo Som meant. I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan >>regardless of what it's made of? >> >>Benjamin Barrett > >If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls >something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless >what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron >skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of >silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. >(I have some in each >category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm >from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not >for the others. > >Larry > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >>>Behalf Of Indigo Som >> >>>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say >>>"cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 06:39:46 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:39:46 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to wonder if sugar can be. Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? Benjamin Barrett From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 08:14:50 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402162054.1aSXfy3LV3NZFmQ1@tanager> Message-ID: >I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic >range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used >cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. I'd use cast iron pan for a frying pan made of cast iron. If the cooking utensil were deeper (and still cast iron), I'd say cast iron pot. Rima From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 08:14:50 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402162239.1aSYTJ6zz3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: >...Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? I know lots of folk who say black coffee to mean only no milk (or other creamer thing). It had nothing to do with whether or not it was then sweetened. Rima From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 17 11:28:52 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:28:52 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. Bethany From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 17 14:55:04 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:55:04 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife (a native) ate them in her childhood. There's also a number of variations on the "White" theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I think is in Hackensack. There's also a White X System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. Any similar joints in NY? Ed --- Dave Wilton wrote: > There's a White Castle in Toms River on Route 37, > near the Hooper Ave > intersection. Those who go to the beach in Seaside > or Island Beach State > Park pass it on their way from the Parkway. It's > relatively new (the last > decade or so). As I said earlier, Toms River was > devoid of White Castle > until after I grew up and left town. > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > > Of James A. Landau > > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo > > > > > > In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 > -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" > > writes: > > > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike > going down the > > shore in NJ. > > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new > experience for me in the early > > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the > place going back to the > > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with > Pop-Pop and Nana. > > > > There used to be a White Castle on the corner of > the Black Horse Pike and > > Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down > maybe ten years > > ago and was > > replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is > NO White Castle > > on the Black > > Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP > meets the > > Expressway), nor on US > > 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only > White Castle > > in New Jersey > > that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick > and Princeton. > > > > What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go > danceries, > > including the one > > whose marquee reads > > SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS > > now serving lunch > > > > If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a > "slider", did the > > term derive > > from the baseball pitch (which did not become > common in the major leagures > > until circa 1950)? > > > > For what it's worth, I have no recollection of > coming across the name > > "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in > 1986. > > > > For the benefit of those not familiar with South > Jersey, there > > are two roads > > running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White > Horse Pike (US > > 30) runs from > > the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) > section of > > Atlantic City. > > The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman > Bridge to the "Downbeach" > > (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various > portions of it > > are numbered as US > > 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the > name "White Horse Pike" > > came first and is from the name of a tavern on the > road. > > > > - Jim Landau > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:04:54 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:04:54 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett said: >The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to >wonder if sugar can be. > >Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no sugar". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:06:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:06:19 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > >I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that >one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, >it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for >cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want >it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) > >I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. > Right. As a native black-with-sugar coffee drinker, I always request coffee black in restaurants (where there are facilities for adding sugar) and "black with sugar" on airplanes or if I'm a guest at someone's house. Clearly, if I just say "black" in the latter circumstances, I'll then have to track down the sugar later to feed my filthy habit. (Of course in NY I could ask for "regular", but then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The thing with sugar is that it really matters how much is added, unlike (in my vicarious experience) cream/milk. Larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 15:22:31 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:22:31 -0600 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: Has no one except myself ever heard the phrase "black coffee with sugar" ever used as a come on line to a pretty waitress? It is similar to and as effective as the old trick of leering at the waitress or saying, "you" after she asked the customer what they would like. Then when she said, "I mean that is on the menu." you would slip the menu under her feet. I don't think that you people have hung around truck stops or bars enough because you don't appear to have ever thought about this phrase except literally. You should hang out with members of the working class more often instead :-) of spending so much time with academics in coffee houses. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:06 AM Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > > > >I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that > >one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, > >it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for > >cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want > >it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) > > > >I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. > > > Right. As a native black-with-sugar coffee drinker, I always request > coffee black in restaurants (where there are facilities for adding > sugar) and "black with sugar" on airplanes or if I'm a guest at > someone's house. Clearly, if I just say "black" in the latter > circumstances, I'll then have to track down the sugar later to feed > my filthy habit. (Of course in NY I could ask for "regular", but > then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The thing with sugar is that > it really matters how much is added, unlike (in my vicarious > experience) cream/milk. > > Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:26:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:26:38 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0500 2/17/04, Alice Faber wrote: >Benjamin Barrett said: >>The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >>saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >>online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to >>wonder if sugar can be. >> >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? >> > >Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), >but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no >sugar". >-- I should add that it really does depend on the context. If someone calls and asks me to answer a survey question on how I drink my coffee, I'd have to say "black with sugar", since "black" in that context would implicate no sugar. But if the Starbucks guy asks whether I want my coffee black, I'd just say yes. In fact, as I was just reminded (I was in Seattle this weekend, where they presumably are experts on this), what you get asked is whether they should leave room for cream. Complicated, these isocafs. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:30:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:30:39 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: <20040217145504.11727.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. >Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife (a >native) ate them in her childhood. > >There's also a number of variations on the "White" >theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I >think is in Hackensack. originating as "White Manor"? >There's also a White X >System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. > >Any similar joints in NY? > I think so, although I can't remember the names. There was a pretty good movie a while back called "White Palace", with Susan Sarandon (who was a waitress in an eponymous hamburger joint) and James Spader, but I'm assuming the scriptwriter invented the chain for the occasion. larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Feb 17 16:07:38 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:07:38 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: Do people in Chicago still ask for coffee "regular" (meaning no milk or sugar)? If so, how do they ask for black with sugar? Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 10:04 AM -0500 2/17/04, Alice Faber wrote: >>Benjamin Barrett said: >>>The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >>>saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >>>online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving >me to >>>wonder if sugar can be. >>> >>>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? >>> >> >>Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), >>but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no >>sugar". >>-- > >I should add that it really does depend on the context. If someone >calls and asks me to answer a survey question on how I drink my >coffee, I'd have to say "black with sugar", since "black" in that >context would implicate no sugar. But if the Starbucks guy asks >whether I want my coffee black, I'd just say yes. In fact, as I was >just reminded (I was in Seattle this weekend, where they presumably >are experts on this), what you get asked is whether they should leave >room for cream. Complicated, these isocafs. > >larry > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 17 16:15:27 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:27 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <011a01c3f569$de178380$4128bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Page Stephens wrote: >You should hang out with members of the working class more often instead :-) >of spending so much time with academics in coffee houses. I think in the days I did that, there was always a pitcher of cream and a container of sugar on the table. And I do not recall ever trying to pick up a waitress - but I could have forgotten ... My coffees today are almost always to go ... and there are no . Bethany From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:02:46 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:02:46 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to be in a minority here. I drink coffee with sugar only and would never describe it as "black." I've always thought of "black" as indicating nothing but the coffee. Lots of people drink it this way, including most people I ever seem to have as guests in my home. When I ask them how they want their coffee and they say, "black," I bring them straight coffee (adding my own sugar out in the kitchen, since I'm the only one who wants it), and I've never had anyone ask for sugar. When asked how I like my coffee, I always say, "just sugar." If I'm having coffee in a restaurant and the sugar is already on the table, I COULD order it "black" and end up with my preferred drink by adding the sugar, but I wouldn't consider that the result still qualified as "black," and it would never occur to me to order it that way anywhere but in NYC, where I learned the hard way that it's the only way to prevent them from dumping in milk or cream. (Scene at a NYC lunch counter during a dairy transport strike many years ago which resulted in shortages of milk and even more so, cream: Me (to waitress bringing coffee): I don't want milk. Waitress: That's all we have, sir. Me: But I don't want any! Waitress: THAT'S ALL WE HAVE, SIR (dumps cream in coffee). Me (belatedly hitting upon the magic word): BLACK! BLACK! I WANT IT BLACK!) Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 17 16:58:33 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:58:33 -0600 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to stolen money. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 17:17:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:17:27 -0500 Subject: Wo Tips, Peeling Indian, Nance Message-ID: A few items between birding. WO TIPS--Seen at this "Don Lee" chain restaurant: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.donleestore.com/pd_wo.cfm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522wo%2Btips%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8 PEELING INDIAN--Usually called the "tourist tree" of the peeling bark, like a sunburnt tourist. The tour guide used this name for it here. NANCE-- http://www.angelfire.com/tx/CZAngelsSpace/beverages.html Two species of nance are common in Panama, nance colorado and nance blanco. Both grow profusely in acid soil. The bark of the nance colorado is used by campesinos to treat fish nets against mildew and fungus. It also is used for medicinal purposes such as the treatment of “athlete’s foot” and other skin fungus diseases. Wood of the nance trees is highly in demand for firewood as it burns leaving a fine white ash. Nance is harvested by shaking the tree. Come October you can buy a bottle of those “yellow things” on your way to the Interior and make Chicha de Nance this way: Mash the contents of 1 bottle of nance. Add about a quart of water. Add sugar to taste and serve very cold or over ice. It is a great thirst quencher. ("Nance" is very important here. I did a quick check of the revised OED and didn't see it. PLEASE tell me that I missed it. OED can't possibly be THAT bad!--ed.) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:58:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:58:12 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Montgomery could answer this best. But my father (b. 1900) was taught by an old-fashioned New England schoolmarm to say "give it me"--and no amount of arguing from this smart alecky high schooler would convince him that it was "wrong." So maybe this was standard in British-derived English? BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. At 10:58 AM 2/17/2004 -0600, you wrote: > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether >"Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the >preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; >variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The >etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps >this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to >stolen money. > >Gerald Cohen From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:09:44 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:09:44 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: Beverly, Reminds me of another written 'r' in an r-less dialect, "Eeyore" A.A. Milne's Pooh stories. Most American readers and the children they're reading to completely miss the intentionally imitative quality of the name and it ends up just sounding like a strange made-up name. My undergrads are frequently surprised when they hear about this. Herb BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:46:22 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:46:22 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To reach a lot of people familiar with Scots, you might try posting your query to Lowlands-L, an e-mail discussion group devoted to Germanic languages that originated in the lowlands areas of Europe. (Scots is included not because of the Scottish lowlands, but because its history is traceable to immigrants from lowlands areas of Europe.) Go to: Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:58 AM -0600 Gerald Cohen wrote: > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether > "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the > preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; > variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The > etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps > this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to > stolen money. > > Gerald Cohen ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:57:18 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:57:18 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes! I read the donkey's name with an 'r' to my son, long before I got into linguistics, obviously! And remember Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (in whatever poem)? I wonder if the double 'r' was meant to push the vowel farther front (to print /a/ in IPA) to reflect the New England vowel? But do you think present-day New England schoolteachers understand this when they ask their kids to read this stuff? British teachers wouldn't have a problem with Eeyore and (hopefully) Marmie, but what would they make of a double 'r'? (Hopefully they wouldn't teach Whittier....) At 01:09 PM 2/17/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Beverly, > >Reminds me of another written 'r' in an r-less dialect, "Eeyore" A.A. >Milne's Pooh stories. Most American readers and the children they're >reading to completely miss the intentionally imitative quality of the name >and it ends up just sounding like a strange made-up name. My undergrads >are frequently surprised when they hear about this. > >Herb > >BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double >'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie >of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused >generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Feb 17 19:04:09 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:04:09 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077008566@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2004, at 12:02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > I seem to be in a minority here. I drink coffee with sugar only and > would > never describe it as "black." I've always thought of "black" as > indicating > nothing but the coffee. Lots of people drink it this way, including > most > people I ever seem to have as guests in my home. For me, black coffee is the same thing, with or without sugar. Non-black coffee has milk. Sugar doesn't change the color. So "black with sugar" is entirely normal. It's still black after the sugar. New York City is a great testing lab for this, given the varied roots of its citizens, the large sample sizes possible, and the preference for stimulants. I tend to drink my coffee black with sugar, when I drink it, and it wasn't long after I arrived here eleven years ago that I noticed discrepancies in what constitutes a "regular" coffee and what constitutes a "black" coffee. This is in diners and restaurants, and from the bagel-and-donut vendors. I've been keeping mental note of the differences. A regular coffee is any of these, in rough order of frequency: --caffeinated coffee with whitener and two sugars --caffeinated coffee with whitener and one sugar --caffeinated coffee with whitener --nothing but caffeinated coffee A black coffee is, in rough order of frequency: --nothing but caffeinated coffee --caffeinated coffee with sugar --caffeinated coffee with room at the top so you can add your own whitener The fun part is where the "black" and "regular" coffees overlap. Grant From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 19:50:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:50:06 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402171607.i1HG7iAt025009@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for their kind and interesting replies. I made an addendum to the black coffee entry. What I thought most interesting was the discrepancy between regular coffee in Chicago and New York, though Grant Barrett's post indicates the situation is far from straightforward. In Seattle, a regular coffee means drip. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 8:08 AM > >Do people in Chicago still ask for coffee "regular" (meaning >no milk or sugar)? If so, how do they ask for black with sugar? > >Regards, >David Barnhart >barnhart at highlands.com >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 7:06 AM > (Of course in NY I could ask >for "regular", but then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The >thing with sugar is that it really matters how much is added, >unlike (in my vicarious >experience) cream/milk. > >Larry >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 11:04 AM > >A regular coffee is any of these, in rough order of frequency: >--caffeinated coffee with whitener and two sugars >--caffeinated coffee with whitener and one sugar --caffeinated >coffee with whitener --nothing but caffeinated coffee > >A black coffee is, in rough order of frequency: >--nothing but caffeinated coffee >--caffeinated coffee with sugar >--caffeinated coffee with room at the top so you can add your >own whitener > >The fun part is where the "black" and "regular" coffees overlap. > >Grant > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 23:45:50 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:45:50 -0500 Subject: Movieoke; Dry Canal; Okey Dokey Smokey; Naked Indian; Beer Belly Tree Message-ID: MOVIEOKE This was featured on CNN. How can I get free publicity on CNN, too? (GOOGLE) http://entertainment.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4459,8556658%255E7485%255E%255Enbv,00.html Movieoke has arrived By Sarah Baxter in New York February 02, 2004 THE opportunity to mouth "You talkin' to me?" from Taxi Driver and "Go ahead, punk, make my day" from Dirty Harry has long been irresistible. The surprise is that movieoke, a twist on the karaoke sing-along craze, has only just arrived. In an arty dive called the Den of Cin in New York's East Village, there is a stage in front of a flickering screen. Anastasia Fite, 24, the master of ceremonies, will both serve you a beer and help you act out your film fantasies. The club is fast becoming one of New York's hottest venues. "As far as I know, I invented movieoke," she said. "I made a movie about three years ago about a girl who can only speak in movie lines. When I found myself running this space I decided to turn it into a social opportunity." --------------------------------------------------------------- DRY CANAL My tour guide mentioned a proposed "dry canal." There are 1,570 Google hits. Please, no "wet canal" retronym. (GOOGLE) http://www.speakeasy.org/~peterc/nicaragua/drycanal/drycanal.htm Nicaragua, October 1996 "Dry canal" across Nicaragua breathes new life into old dream By Peter Costantini MANAGUA — Half-buried in the sand of an isolated, palm-fringed Caribbean beach, a few old railroad wheels lie rusting. They were left at Monkey Point in 1903, local people say, by some Germans who started building a railroad across Nicaragua. They never got far, though. The project foundered, and in 1910 the U. S. Marines landed to put an end to Nicaragua's commercial flirtations with Europe and Japan. This summer, nearly a century later, U.S. engineering firm Parsons Brinckerhoff began a $20 million feasibility study of a "dry canal" or "land bridge" across Nicaragua. The $1.4 billion project, scheduled to break ground next year, will construct deep-water container ports and free-trade zones on the Caribbean and Pacific and connect them with a 210-mile high-speed railroad. The Caribbean terminus will be located at Monkey Point. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- OKEY DOKEY SMOKEY TWO different local tour guides here in Panama have independently used "okey dokey smokey." Maybe they`re smoking something here in Panama? --------------------------------------------------------------- NAKED INDIAN One of the "okey dokey smokey" guides told me that it`s "naked indian" tree with him, not "peeling indian" or "tourist tree." A search for "naked indian" on google turns up--uh, never mind. A search for "naked indian tree" turns up: (GOOGLE) Comparative Distribution of the Naked Indian Tree, Bursera ... - [ Traduzca esta página ] Please Click here to return to main page. Comparative Distribution of the Naked Indian Tree, Bursera simaruba,. in Primary Highland ... www.woodrow.org/teachers/esi/2000/cr2000/ Group_1/Research_Project/NakedIndian.htm - 33k - En caché - Páginas similares Ceiba - [ Traduzca esta página ] Naked Indian or Tourist Tree / Bursera simaruba. This species has a wide distribution in open and deciduous rainforest. Its names ... www.mesoamerica-travel.com/english/honduras/ ecotourism/flora/indio%20desnudo.htm - 3k - En caché - Páginas similares --------------------------------------------------------------- BEER BELLY TREE "Beer belly tree" was used by a tour guide, who said it`s also "pot belly tree" or "big belly tree." (GOOGLE) NEWS Travel - Gateway to the oceans [July 13, 2003] - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... These include black palms, covered in nasty protective spines, and the comically named beer-belly tree, which contains a sponge-like material inside its trunk ... travel.news.com.au/story/0,9142,6745412-28017,00.html - 29k - En caché - Páginas similares Caatinga vegetation in northeastern Brazil - [ Traduzca esta página ] Caatinga The Barriguda (Pot-belly tree), Cavanillesia arborea , in the Caatinga. Caatinga is an Indian term meaning "white forest ... www.nybg.org/bsci/res/bahia/Caatinga.html - 2k - En caché - Páginas similares genus Cavanillesia- - Cavanillesia,Cavanillesia platanifolia, Quipo, Cavanillesia hylogeiton, Cavanillesia umbellata, Cavanillesia arborea, Pot-belly tree, www.omne-vivum.com/c/25098.htm - 8k - En caché - Páginas similares From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 00:11:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:11:18 -0500 Subject: "Jibarito" sandwich; "Sancocho"/"Melting Pot" of people Message-ID: "JIBARITO" SANDWICH Here I am, in Panama, reading about a Spanish sandwich from Chicago in the Sunday NEW YORK TIMES. For that special "sandwich person" out there, in case she missed it. (WWW.NYTIMES.COM) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/travel/15tab.html?pagewanted=2&n=Top%2fFeatures%2fTravel%2fDestinations%2fUnited%20States%2fIllinois%2fChicago Latin Accents Heat Up Chicago's Dining Scene By DENNIS RAY WHEATON Published: February 15, 2004 A HUGE immigrant population of Hispanics from all over Mexico, Central and South America and the Caribbean thrives in Chicago. Like deep-dish pizza and the blues from other worlds, Latino food and music are part of the city's soul. (...) The Winds Cafe Just as Chicago's Italians invented deep-dish pizza, Puerto Rican immigrants invented the jibarito (little bumpkin) sandwich. Instead of bread, jibarito sandwiches are made with chewy slabs of fried plantains topped with garlic. I like the ones cooked on the open griddle next to the bar in the Winds Cafe, a welcoming spot in Logan Square, a few blocks off the Kennedy Expressway connecting O'Hare Airport and downtown. At this combination neighborhood tavern and back-room restaurant with a half-dozen plastic-covered tables, jibaritos are typically filled with thin-sliced steak, but you can also get the sandwiches with jerk or honey-lime chicken or even a vegetarian patty. All come with lettuce, tomato, grilled onions and optional cheese and a side of crispy plantain chips or French fries. (GOOGLE) Rincon Criollo Restaurant - Home of the famous Jibarito Sandwich - [ Traduzca esta página ] Rincón Criollo Restaurant Home of the famous “Jibarito Sandwich” Proud to serve Cleveland’s best Latin Food. Rincón Criollo ... nuestravilla.com/rinconcriollo/ - 4k - En caché - Páginas similares [DOC] El Rincon Criollo Formato de archivo: Microsoft Word 2000 - Versión en HTML ... LITE DINNERS. El Famoso Jibarito Sandwich $5.00. Famous Jibarito Sandwich. ... LITE DINNERS. El Famoso Jibarito Sandwich $5.00. Famous Jibarito Sandwich. ... nuestravilla.com/rinconcriollo/rincon_criollo_menu.doc - Páginas similares [ Más resultados de nuestravilla.com ] Metromix | A Chicago entertainment and restaurant guide ... - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The speciality of the house is the jibarito sandwich, which features your choice of steak, roast pork, white or dark chicken meat, vegetables or ham, plus ... entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com/ top/1,1419,M-Metromix-Dining-!PlaceDetail-21247,00.html - 45k - En caché - Páginas similares Metromix | A Chicago entertainment and restaurant guide - The ... - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The most popular food here are the steak sandwich and the buffalo wings, but one can also fill up on a basket of plaintains or the Jibarito sandwich. ... entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com/ top/1,1419,M-Metromix-Dining-!PlaceDetail-22011,00.html - 52k - En caché - Páginas similares [ Más resultados de entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com ] PUERTO RICO HERALD: Saga Of A Sandwich; `I Can Do That,' Thought ... - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The Cleveland restaurant calls itself Rincon Criollo: Home of the famous "Jibarito Sandwich." When asked about this title, Rincon owner Felix Ocasio defends it ... www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/ vol7n33/SagaSandwich-en.shtml - 17k - En caché - Páginas similares PUERTO RICO HERALD: Puerto Rican Party Time - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The signature dish is the Jibarito, a fried plantain sandwich filled with steak, onions, lettuce and tomato with mayo and ketchup. ... www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2002/ vol6n50/PRPartyTime-en.shtml - 11k - En caché - Páginas similares --------------------------------------------------------------- SANCOCHO I previously discussed "sancocho." As I've said, OED is 100 years off. Miserable. That free Panama publication I cited from talked about a "sancocho" of people. Is this the same as a "melting pot"? (GOOGLE)("sancocho of people") Focus Panama: Panama City - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... ship gaggle looking for bargains. This sancocho of people is the speciality of the house only in Panama City. Travel to the Interior ... www.focuspublicationsint.com/ focuspanama/en/panama-en.htm - 14k - En caché - Páginas similares (GOOGLE)("sancocho" + "melting pot") UNIVERSITY of SALSA - Glossary of Terms (PT) - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... area of Cuba. sancocho. 1. A Puerto Rican stew 2. A melting pot, blend, mixture of many things together santeria. The pantheistic religion ... www.planetsalsa.com/university_of_salsa/glossarypt.htm - 52k - En caché - Páginas similares Focus Panama: Panama City - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... PEOPLE.- Panama has been called a melting pot, but actually it is a sancocho pot. As in the local dish, all the ingredients are ... www.focuspublicationsint.com/ focuspanama/en/panama-en.htm - 14k - En caché - Páginas similares AWR: Global Glimpse - Panama - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... North Americans--are also present. Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot. As in the local dish ... www.awr.org/global-glimpse-panama.html - 13k - En caché - Páginas similares Some things to do - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... Currency: Bl/1.00 = US$ 1.00 The People. Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot :). As in the local ... www.iaehv.nl/users/grimaldo/people.html - 8k - En caché - Páginas similares Bobby Flay's Postcard from NYC - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The whole city is a bubbling, spicy melting pot that never stops, with new ... great dishes you see all around Latin America and the Caribbean: sancocho, a stew of ... www.ivillage.com/food/experts/com/ articles/0,,273117_404881,00.html - 61k - En caché - Páginas similares LanChile - Bogota - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... The city is a unique melting pot of rich cultures and traditions, which ... Typical dishes include "sancocho" (chicken stew), "bandeja Paisa" (heaped portions of ... www7.lanchile.com/english/un/vacaciones/ sudamerica/bogota.htm - 42k - En caché - Páginas similares A Fishing Directory - fishseekers.com ... Travel:Personal ... - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... history and nature. Any comments? Recommend Panama Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot. As in the ... www.fishseekers.com/search/Travel/Personal_Travelogues/ Central_America/ - 18k - En caché - Páginas similares From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 00:27:05 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:27:05 EST Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: In Crystal's Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language he reproduces a page from Orton's Survey of English Dialects which maps the grammatical forms "Give it me, Give it to me, and Give me it". The former is a West Midland and Kentish form--the Northern form is Give me it.--but of course this is only for England, not Scotland. Dale Coye The College of NJ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 03:42:59 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:42:59 -0500 Subject: 100 Typical Panamanian Recipes (2002) Message-ID: "Chicheme, "gallo pinto," "carimanolas," "hojaldre"--all this stuff has to be in the OED. PANAMA PIZZA www.tre-scalini.net A local pizza place. I didn't see anything special on the menu, but take a look. How about pasta "Rossini (con polli en salsa roja)"? PANAMA BOOKSTORE www.exedrabooks.com The local Borders or Barnes & Noble. You can probably order cookbooks online. I bought the following book (available only in Spanish). (GOOGLE)(A nice English description-ed.) http://vivapanama.org/OurCuisine.htm PATACONES: green plantain mashed and fried served as appetizers or like french fries to accompany meals. TAJADAS: ripe plantain sliced lengthwise and fried served as a complement to meals. It is sweet and often confused with a dessert. PLATANOS EN TENTACION: can be made with ripe plantains or bananas cut lengthwise and baked or broiled with plenty of butter and brown sugar with a sprinkle of cinnamon, sometimes with nutmeg or cheese. It has to be eaten hot and served to accompany a main course. CARIMANOLAS: made of manioc (yuca)-based dough with an oval sausage shape, filled with meat and fried. It is eaten hot as a snack or with meals. Also called "enyucados". YUCA FRITA: manioc boiled and fried, may replace French fries. EMPANADAS: corn turnovers filled with ground meat and fried. It can also be made of flour and baked. Served as snack or appetizer. TORTILLAS DE MAIZ: corn tortilla fried and served for breakfast, snacks or with meals. In the countryside it usually replaces a serving of bread. TAMAL: cornmeal stuffed with pork or chicken and some vegetables, wrapped in a square shape in banana leaves and broiled. La Chorrera, a small town 30 kms. from Panama City is famous for its giant-size tamales to which hot sauce and pasas (raisins) are added. TAMAL DE OLLA: same as a tamal but baked and served as a pie. BOLLO DE MAIZ NUEVO: young cornmeal dough boiled in its own leaves. BOLLO DE MAIZ PREÑADO: young cornmeal dough filled with ground meat and boiled in its leaves. It is also a specialty of La Chorrera. CHICHEME: beverage made of cornmeal cooked with water, sugar and cinnamon. "Chicheme Chorrerano" is very popular and well known throughout the country. CHICHA: cold fruit juices with sugar and water. TASAJO: sun-dried meat cooked with vegetables. SANCOCHO: the country's national dish and an entire meal in itself. Chicken is cooked in pieces and simmered in water, vegetables, plantains, manioc, otoe, corn, yam and flavored with a lot of culantro. Ingredients may differ slightly according to the region. Served with white rice and hot sauce. ARROZ CON POLLO: chicken cooked with vegetables, then boned and mixed with rice. Practically every Latin American country rates it among the favorite dishes but rice and chicken are about all they have in common. GALLO PINTO: red pinto beans cooked with pork and then mixed with rice and fried. GUACHO: heavy soup with rice and beans cooked with pork or seafood. ARROZ CON GUANDU: rice cooked in coconut milk with pigeon peas. FUFU: a typical dish from the province of Bocas del Toro and the northern coast. Fried fish cooked in coconut milk with plantains, manioc, yam. Served with a lot of hot sauce. HOJALDRE: fried flour tortilla served for breakfast. SARIL: beverage made of sorrell. The bright red crisp "petals"-calyces surrounding the seed- are boiled in water, brown sugar with grated ginger root and strained. Served very cold with ice. MONDONGO: tripe prepared with vegetables, peas and tomatoes. Served with white rice and hot sauce. CEVICHE: raw fish marinated with lime, onions and hot hili. Served as appetizer. SAOS: of Jamaican origin but widely eaten as an appetizer through-out the country. Pig or cow's feet cooked and marinated in lime, onion with hot chili peppers. --------------------------------------------------------------- 100 RECETAS TIPICAS PANAMENOS DE DONA DORA Dora de Billingslea Editora Geminis (egeminis at sinfo.net) Printed in Colombia 106 pages, paperback, $7.45 Edicion Revisada 2002 ARROCES Arroz con aji dulce...25 Arroz con bacalao y coco...28 Arroz con cangrejos...27 Arroz con circuelas nacionales...29 Arroz con coco y camaroncitos titi...24 Arroz con guandu y coco...21 Arroz con pasa salado...23 Arroz con pollo...22 Arroz con zapallo...26 Gallo pinto...20 Guacho de mariscos...19 CARNES Bofe...30 Carne entomatada...33 Chicharron...47 Conejo guisado...43 Costilla de puerco con vegetales...46 Costillita de res...48 Gallina con achiote...35 Guisado de papaya (Chitre)...41 Iguana adobada...38 (PLEASE DON'T EAT THE IGUANAS!--ed.) Lechon asado...44 Lomo redondo o lomo de costillon...34 Mondongo con habas...39 Pollo en escabeche...37 Pollo con vegetales...36 Rinones...31 Ropa vieja...49 Seren o mandungo (Chitre)...40 Seso de vaca con huevo...42 CHICHAS Chicha de arroz con pina...8 Chicha loja...9 Chicha de maiz...73 Resbaladera...7 DULCES PARA POSTRES Arroz con cacao...71 Arroz con leche...72 Bollo de cuajada (Chiriqui)...77 Bollo de platano o geta...79 Bollo dulce con leche de coco...76 Bollos de maiz nuevo con coco...75 Bollos dulces con anis...74 Cabanga...69 Cocada...68 Cocada con pepita de maranon...65 Chiricanos...78 Chocao...60 Dulce de zapallo...66 Dulce de maranon...62 Huevitos de leche...70 Mamallena o pudin de pan...67 Melcocha...64 Merengue...63 Suspiros...61 ENSALADAS Ensaladas de aguacate...3 Ansalada de papaya verde...2 Ensalada de yuca con bacalao...4 Ensalada de zapallo...1 MAICES Bollo de maiz con chicharron...80 Bollos prenados...82 Empanada de maiz con platano maduro...84 Mazamorra de maiz nuevo con nance y coco...81 Tamal..59 Tamal de maiz nuevo...58 Tortillas de maiz con queso blanco...83 MARISCOS Almejas en salsa roja...56 Ceviche de conchuelas...55 Ceviche de pescado...54 Chucula o madun Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...52 Chupe de camaron...57 Lacro Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...51 Pescado en escabeche...50 Tuli machi Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...53 PANES Pan blanco...5 Pan de huevo...6 SOPA Caldo de cabezas de pescado copn name...18 Sancocho de gallina...15 Sopa de camaron...16 Sopa de carne de pecho o hueso de rodilla...14 Sopa de mariscos con leche de coco...17 Sopa de pata de res con arvejas...13 Sopa de pata de res y gabanzo...11 Sopa de rabo de res...12 VARIOS Aletas de tortuga guisadas...100 Bolleria o goyoria...91 Hojaldas u hojaldres...98 Patacones...90 Platanos en almibar o tentacion...92 Torrejas de arvejas amarillas...93 Torrejas de frijoles cabeza negra...94 Torrejas de maiz nuevo...96 Torrejas de guineo...95 Tortuga apanada...99 YUCAS Bunuelos de yuca...87 Carimanolas...85 Enyucado...88 Pastel de yuca...89 Torrejas de yuca...97 Yuca hervida con cebolla y mantequilla...86 Los aniversarios de las Bodas y su simbolismo...101 Menu de una boda tipica...102 Desayunos tipocs...102 Equivalencias y abreviaturas...105 Menus tipicos para ocasiones especiales...103 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 18 15:03:09 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:03:09 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <200402180502.i1I52vvq009393@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bev writes: BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. --------- "How to say the names in The Jungle Book", at the back of the edition I had (Kipling, of course), confused me mightily: Balu "BAR-loo" As did a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and the giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 18 15:06:22 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:06:22 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402180502.i1I52vvq009393@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I learned long ago never to ask for "regular" coffee, 'cause I never knew what I would get, and instead made a habit of saying "milk, NO sugar", stressing the 'NO' after a few times of getting "milk, with sugar". -- Mark A. Mandel From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Wed Feb 18 16:05:42 2004 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:05:42 +0800 Subject: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious In-Reply-To: <200402181506.i1IF6O2i026538@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious Straight Dope has this: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msupercali.html ...anything further...? [For fun I set up a domain name: http://supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.taolodge.com/] Russ r m : m c c l a y ................................................................... mcclay at taolodge.com http://taolodge.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 16:08:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:08:02 -0600 Subject: White Castles etc. Message-ID: White Castle hamburgers are known as both sliders and belly busters in the Cleveland, Ohio area. I cannot vouch for this story but a friend of my father who once ran a White Castle told him that they used to make 40 white castles out of a pound of hamburger which explains the holes in the damned things. In addition he told dad that they had to put onions on the damned things lest they fell apart. As I recall back in 1966 when I lived in Chicago their slogan was "Buy them by the bag" which meant that you could get a dozen of them for a buck. That means, of course, that if you bought 12 you would end up getting 3/10 of a pound of hamburger per bag. Many people I know in Cleveland remember quite fondly not White Castle but Royal Castle hamburgers which had similar stores. One of the more fascinating stories I can give you from Cleveland is about a bar which I think has recently closed which was locally known for selling original recipe Burger Chef hamburgers though having eaten a few of the originals I still don't know why since those of us who knew that chain before it went under used to call it Burger Death with good reason. Page Stephens From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 16:21:50 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:21:50 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch oven? It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who needs Teflon. My friend the cowboy singer Glenn Ohrlin who claims that he has eaten pancakes every day of his life used to dedicate two skillets entirely to pancakes and if you even attempted to cook anything else in them Glenn would come down on you like stink on shit. Glenn and I used make pancakes every morning which we would eat and then duly feed to the dog, the cats and most importantly the horses since it brought them up to the house so that we could saddle them up if we wanted to go riding or get some work done. Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 16:22:59 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:22:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:05 AM +0800 2/19/04, Russ McClay wrote: >Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious > >Straight Dope has this: > >http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msupercali.html > >...anything further...? > >[For fun I set up a domain name: >http://supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.taolodge.com/] > >Russ > >r m : m c c l a y >................................................................... > mcclay at taolodge.com > http://taolodge.com Nice to see American Speech and Eric Hamp involved in the history, although evidently not conclusively. I wonder whether it's a compliment to be referred to (as Peter Tamony is) as "a folk-etymologist". Better than our all being assimilated to "entymologists" as occurs later in the piece, which Cecil himself did not prepare. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 16:28:59 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:28:59 -0500 Subject: frying pans In-Reply-To: <00ca01c3f63b$51badd10$b729bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 10:21 AM -0600 2/18/04, Page Stephens wrote: > Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a >cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch >oven? > >It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the >pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. > >If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who >needs Teflon. >... >Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil >touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. > Well, this is a bit off-topic, but while it's standard wisdom to avoid soap and water (much less dishwashers) in cleaning one's cast-iron skillets/pans, I've never heard of avoiding oil. I season them with oil. In fact, I don't see how I would use one without "a drop of...oil", since I usually cook with oil in them. (They are great used dry, though, for such tasks as roasting spices.) So I'll bite--how do you season them without oil? larry From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 17:18:43 2004 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:18:43 -0500 Subject: polygotry Message-ID: >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: "San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for bigotry against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. Let's call it polygotry." See the full column at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0402180285feb18,1,4455212.column - Allan Metcalf From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:24:27 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:24:27 -0500 Subject: polygotry In-Reply-To: <570A95E9.303B0756.0003F9C1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:18 PM -0500 2/18/04, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: > >"San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for >bigotry against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. >Let's call it polygotry." > >See the full column at > >http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0402180285feb18,1,4455212.column > >- Allan Metcalf ...and if you're only bigoted against bigamy, that's called...bigotry? Hmmm. L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:29:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:29:09 -0500 Subject: polygotry In-Reply-To: <200402181718.i1IHItM14075@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: > > "San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for bigotry > against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. Let's call it > polygotry." I suspect many Mormons would question the statement that bias against polygamy is new. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Feb 18 17:40:20 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:40:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Safire's Researcher Message-ID: If anyone knows a senior or graduate student in the DC metropolitan area who would be willing to come in to the news bureau 4 hours a day and do the research for Safire's column - contact me off list. It is a temporary, part-time, hourly, 1099 independent contractor status job, near Farragut Square. It's fun, a little extra pocket money and padding to a resume. Kathleen E. Miller "I don't know what to call myself anymore" The New York Times From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:38:14 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:38:14 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Bev writes: > >BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double >'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in >Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect >it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. > > --------- > >"How to say the names in The Jungle Book", at the back of the edition I >had (Kipling, of course), confused me mightily: > > Balu "BAR-loo" > >As did a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's > Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and the >giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that >he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or >thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in >the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) > >I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now >assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like 'it' --> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian English)? From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 18:13:37 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:13:37 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as Message-ID: Hello all, I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with through this medium. Anyhow...a query. A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. (Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. Some other examples via google: It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it wouldn't pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., is actually Canadian). The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) My 'theory' about it: I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... So, my questions: 1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any way? 2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj [of NP]]? 3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of other cases of epenthetic 'of'? 4. Is there anything published on this construction? Thanks in advance... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 18:24:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:24:14 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: Larry, What you do is to put some cooking oil into them and then bake them to the point where they get so hot that the oil soaks into the iron. You then get rid of the oil which is left. Then they are ready to use. This may be folklore but it has always worked for me while attempting to use them off the shelf as they are sold has never worked because everything you attempt to cook in them sticks to the pan. We used to call this "curing the pan" and perhaps it didn't do us any good but I can tell you from my own experience that uncured pans didn't work as well as cured pans did. I will now give you Glenn Ohrlin's little secret about making pancakes. You add a little bit of cooking oil to his and my secret recipe for making pancakes before you make up the batter and they come out absolutely perfect. This makes certain that the pancakes do not stick to the bottom of the pan. Now, since this has always vexed me, why almost no one above the Mason Dixon line knows how to make corn bread I will give you my grandmother's recipe. Corn bread is made of corn flour and doesn't have any wheat flour or sugar in it. To make it you take a seasoned pan and mix up corn flour with a little bit of bacon and or bacon fat, add water and an egg white or two in order to hold it together. Then you bake it until it is ready to eat, i.e. hard and crisp. The stuff they call corn bread up north which is basically wheat flour and sugar with only a little bit of corn flour is an abomination sold to suckers by restaurant chains. In other words it has no more resemblance to corn bread than a snake has hips. Enough said. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: frying pans > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: frying pans > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 10:21 AM -0600 2/18/04, Page Stephens wrote: > > Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a > >cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch > >oven? > > > >It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the > >pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. > > > >If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who > >needs Teflon. > >... > >Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil > >touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. > > > Well, this is a bit off-topic, but while it's standard wisdom to > avoid soap and water (much less dishwashers) in cleaning one's > cast-iron skillets/pans, I've never heard of avoiding oil. I season > them with oil. In fact, I don't see how I would use one without "a > drop of...oil", since I usually cook with oil in them. (They are > great used dry, though, for such tasks as roasting spices.) > > So I'll bite--how do you season them without oil? > > larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 18 18:29:07 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:29:07 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040218123549.01171450@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2004, at 9:38 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you [mark mandel] wrote: >> ...a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's >> Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and >> the >> giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >> stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something >> that >> he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, >> or >> thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >> giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself >> in >> the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >> blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) >> >> I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I >> now >> assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel... > > Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like > 'it' > --> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian > English)? um, that arrow is pointing the wrong way. "hit" was the older form (with the initial h of "he" and "him"). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 18 18:59:16 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <56809BF4-6240-11D8-980D-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:29 AM 2/18/2004 -0800, you wrote: >On Feb 18, 2004, at 9:38 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you [mark mandel] wrote: >>>...a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's >>> Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and >>>the >>>giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >>>stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something >>>that >>>he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, >>>or >>>thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >>>giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself >>>in >>>the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >>>blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) >>> >>>I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I >>>now >>>assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel... >> >>Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like >>'it' >>--> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian >>English)? > >um, that arrow is pointing the wrong way. "hit" was the older form >(with the initial h of "he" and "him"). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Yes, of course! From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 18 19:16:56 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:16:56 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: You might try the Lowlands list. Lots of Scots there whou would be willing to answer your question. lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:58 AM Subject: Question about Scottish > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether > "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the > preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; > variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The > etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps > this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to > stolen money. > > Gerald Cohen > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1077037653"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Wed Feb 18 20:06:13 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:06:13 -0600 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <0HTA00MNCLRM98@smtp5.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. At 06:13 PM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Lynne Murphy >Subject: as ADJ of a N as >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hello all, > >I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to >find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An >especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with >through this medium. > >Anyhow...a query. > >A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as >this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. >(Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. > >Some other examples via google: > >It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. > >As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... > >Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it >wouldn't >pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., >is actually Canadian). > >The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's >particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other >Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) > >My 'theory' about it: >I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be >inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to >prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a >joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic >constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other >American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my >students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was >the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different >preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... > >So, my questions: > >1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any >way? > >2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj >[of NP]]? > >3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of >other cases of epenthetic 'of'? > >4. Is there anything published on this construction? > > >Thanks in advance... > >Lynne >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and English Language >Arts B133 >University of Sussex >Falmer >Brighton BN1 9QN > >From UK: (01273) 678844 >Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:13:22 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:13:22 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040218140435.0297b1f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I've heard this construction before, but it's not very commonly used where I come from (northeastern MA) or where I now live (western MA). I think of it as colloquial and technically ungrammatical, in English at least. I'm not well versed enough in linguistics to comment on your characterization of the construction, but it reminds me a lot of the partitive genitive in that it seems to imply that the thing referred to is one example of a larger group of similar things. For what it's worth... On 18 Feb 2004, at 14:06, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well > scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. > > At 06:13 PM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote: > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Lynne Murphy > >Subject: as ADJ of a N as > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Hello all, > > > >I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to > >find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An > >especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with > >through this medium. > > > >Anyhow...a query. > > > >A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as > >this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. > >(Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. > > > >Some other examples via google: > > > >It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. > > > >As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... > > > >Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it > >wouldn't > >pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., > >is actually Canadian). > > > >The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's > >particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other > >Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) > > > >My 'theory' about it: > >I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be > >inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to > >prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a > >joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic > >constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other > >American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my > >students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was > >the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different > >preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... > > > >So, my questions: > > > >1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any > >way? > > > >2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj > >[of NP]]? > > > >3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of > >other cases of epenthetic 'of'? > > > >4. Is there anything published on this construction? > > > > > >Thanks in advance... > > > >Lynne > >Dr M Lynne Murphy > >Lecturer in Linguistics > > > >Department of Linguistics and English Language > >Arts B133 > >University of Sussex > >Falmer > >Brighton BN1 9QN > > >From UK: (01273) 678844 > >Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 20:28:05 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:28:05 -0600 Subject: A Question about dialects and pronunciation Message-ID: Has anyone else had my experience? Back in the 1950s I bought a Stinson record by the late Ewan MacColl on which he sang a number of songs in his variant of Scottish dialect and pronunciation which were entirely incomprehensible to me. After listening to them a few times, however, I understood the words and from that point in time on I have been unable to recreate my initial wonderment about what the hell he was saying. The same thing happened to me when an English friend of mine introduced me to The Goon Shows which starred Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe. I didn't know what the hell they were saying but once I learned to understand the various pronunciations they used I could never again understand how in the hell I didn't understand them the first time I had heard them and the same thing goes for Trinidadian which puzzled me the first time I heard it but which now after having lived on the island for some six months back in the '60s is clear as a bell. To be honest with you I be vexed about this phenomenon and would be interested if there is any literature on the subject. Page Stephens From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 20:30:13 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:30:13 EST Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: Comuterworld, vo. 38 no 5, 2 February 2004, page 1 "Emcor Saves on Sarb-Ox" by Thomas AHoffman The Sarbanes-Oxley Act imposes major reporting requrrements on corporations, which means that within corporate computer and accounting divisions it is a major topic of conversation, and not surprisingly it has gotten abbreviated. This is the first abbreviated usage I have run across. Some acronym-happy camper at Emcor (which installs mechanical and electrical systmes in commercial buildings) came up with "SOCRATES": Sarb-Ox Compliance Reporting and Tracking Executive System. (same article, page 41 column 2). Also page 41 column 5 includes the term "audit-frioendly". - James A. Landau From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:32:28 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040218140435.0297b1f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: On 18 Feb 2004, at 14:06, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well > scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. DARE sees this as "probably a remodeling of the order adj + indef art + noun by analogy with the common pattern noun + "of" + indef art + noun (as in "a whale of a deal" or "not much of a bargain"). FWIW, the Collegiate describes a use of "of" very similar to the one in last-mentioned DARE examples: that of "a function word to indicate apposition " Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:48:05 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:48:05 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077128017@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Turns out there's a whole article devoted to this construction in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage! It's listed under "of a." If you don't have the article and would like a copy, Lynn, just send me your fax #. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 18 21:09:47 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:09:47 -0500 Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: At 03:30 PM 2/18/2004, you wrote: >Comuterworld, vo. 38 no 5, 2 February 2004, page 1 "Emcor Saves on Sarb-Ox" >by Thomas AHoffman I know it's somewhat older than that (by acronym/compound standards)--I have to deal with enforcement of it in another part of my life. It's often written without the hyphen: Sarbox. Here's a few random cites from a year or so ago: http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/25/17OPreality_1.html http://www.tva.gov/insidetva/june03/thinking.htm Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology Associate Professor, Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 C&IT Phone: +313 577-1259 English Phone: +313 577-8621 FAX: +313 577-0404 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Feb 18 21:02:14 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:02:14 -0500 Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: The formal name is the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 (Public Law 107-204, enacted July 30, 2002 - I work with it a lot). SOx or SOX is probably the more frequent shortened form and was used almost immediately after the statute's passage. From the National Post on 8/12/02: >>The source said the bank has already begun to view the SEC as its lead regulator, simply because of the stiff new listing requirements. "If [the OSC][[i.e., the Ontario Securities Commission. JMB]] wants to maintain its autonomy it needs to not only catch up but actually take the lead. Basically, the rug was pulled out from underneath them last week," he said, referring to the passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation, or SOX.<< For SarbOx, here's a Reuters story in the Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.) on 2/28/03: "Gone for the moment are questions about "material adverse change" clauses, replaced by detailed discussions about requirements under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, or "SarbOx," as it is known in legal circles." The headline is "Top M&A minds now doling out 'SarbOx' advice." For hyphenated Sarb-Ox, the American Banker has this headline from 5/16/03: "Conflicting Guidance for Small Banks on Sarb-Ox." The article's text refers only to Sarbanes-Oxley, not the shortened form. Most people just call it Sarbanes-Oxley, rather than Sarb-Ox or SOX. The statute got its name in the conference committee, when Representative Oxley (the chair of the House Financial Services Committee) proposed that the statute be named the Sarbanes Act, after Senator Paul Sarbanes (his counterpart, the chair of the Senate Banking Committee). It was widely acknowledged that Senator Sarbanes was the guiding light behind the new law, which had only minimal input from the House of Representatives. Senator Sarbanes, of course, graciously said that Rep. Oxley's name should also be in the title. I have to think that this was the outcome Oxley planned. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 18 22:56:07 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:56:07 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: You will probably want to have a look at this site: http://www.scots-online.org/ Fritz >>> gcohen at UMR.EDU 02/17/04 08:58AM >>> Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to stolen money. Gerald Cohen From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 18 23:52:04 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:52:04 -0800 Subject: polygotry Message-ID: Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically polygyny) in over a century. Is there now a movement among the Mormons for the legalization of polygamy? Fritz > > " I suspect many Mormons would question the statement that bias against polygamy is new. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 19 00:09:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:09:25 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077128017@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > ...A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a > joke as > this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. > (Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. "as" is an "exceptional degree marker", in my terms: Zwicky, Arnold M. 1995. Exceptional degree markers: A puzzle in external and internal syntax. OSU WPL 47.111-23. ordinary degree markers, like "very" and Adj-ly, combine with an Adj and a bare (determinerless) NP. exceptional degree markers, like "as" and "that", combine with Adj and a NP with determiner "a(n)" (and so can be used, for most speakers, only with singular count Ns; in the nonstandard (but *very* widespread) american construction, they combine with Adj and a PP consisting of "of" plus such a NP. > ...2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or > [As [Adj > [of NP]]? if the parsing of "very Adj N" -- e.g. "very big dog" -- is [[very Adj] N], then the parsing of "as Adj a(n) N" -- e.g. "as big a dog" -- would presumably be [[as Adj] [a(n) N]], and the parsing of "as Adj of a(n) N" -- e.g. "as big of a dog" -- [[as Adj]] [of [a(n) N]]]. but there is a move, very clear in abney's dissertation and radford's article in the Heads volume edited by corbett et al., to treat modifiers as heads of their phrases (Adj as head in Adj + N, Adv as head in Adv + Adj, somewhat parallel to D as head in D + N) and to mirror this claim in the structure of nominals: [a [very [big dog]]], [as [big [a dog]] (or [a [as [big dog]], with the "a" moved down in the structure), [as [big [of [a dog]]]. in fact, abney and radford mention the nonstandard american construction as evidence for the exceptional degree marker as head in Adv + Adj -- since the Adv and not the Adj determines how the rest of the phrase is composed. > 3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think > of > other cases of epenthetic 'of'? Ns have plain clausal objects -- "the idea that pigs could fly" -- but NP objects marked with "of" -- "the idea of pigs flying". this could be seen as "of" epenthesis, or as deletion of "of" before clausal objects, or, of course, simply as a difference in marking, with no insertions or deletions (which is what i'd prefer). similarly, some determiners require "of" ("a lot of books"/*"a lot books" -- cf. "a lot bigger"), some don't allow it (*"a dozen of books"/"a dozen books"), and some show variation ("a couple of books"/"a couple books"). this could be treated as insertion (or deletion), but why? (one answer: some theories require such a treatment.) > 4. Is there anything published on this construction? see above, and references therein. there's also a fairly recent relevant article (with a pretty extensive bibliography): Seppa"nen, Aimo; Solveig Granath; & Lars Danielsson. 2002. The construction ‘AdjP — a(n) — Noun’ in present-day English syntax. Leuvense Bijdragen 91.97-136. (yes, about as obscure as my paper!) and a lengthy discussion on the LINGUIST list from a few years ago, which might have some further sources. there's variation as to which degree words are exceptional and in what contexts. for many american speakers, the nonstandard "of" variant of the exceptional markers seems to be essentially categorical, but i think there are speakers who have the "of" variant as informal and spoken, with the standard variant as formal and written. (undoubtedly variation within individuals would be good topic for research. if someone has pursued this topic, i'd like to hear about it.) maybe this is more than you wanted to hear... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 01:42:10 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:42:10 EST Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: In a message dated 2/18/2004 1:00:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that >he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or >thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in >the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) > >I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now >assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. > The SW part of England, though not Cornwall, if memory serves, was rhotic, and if I believe "her" is the pronoun they use, see the first couple of chapters of Lorna Doone set in Devon and Somerset. I"m pretty sure this form appears there. Also probably in Hardy's West Country novels. Dale Coye The College of NJ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Feb 19 01:25:26 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:25:26 -0500 Subject: A Question about dialects and pronunciation Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:28:05 -0600 Page Stephens writes: > Has anyone else had my experience? Not as elegant as your examples, but ... South Park. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 19 02:50:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:50:23 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool) In-Reply-To: <200402040505.i1455pvq019920@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: (catching up on my list mail) On Feb. 3 Joel Shaver wrote What's interesting is, though I hadn't connected the two until I saw it written, these words are formed with a similar infix to what my grandparents and my dad always used to use in what they called "carnival language" (one of the many pig-latinesque "languages" English has accumulated). They said the carnies used to speak it to confuse and rip off customers. The infix was more like ee-iz, though. I'm sure something like this could have been developed twice by different groups of people, though it would be interesting to see if there is any connection. ------- CLICK! In, I guess, the early sixties a New York disc jockey, Murray the K, used /i:@z/~/i:@s/ infixation as a secret language, which he called /mi:@'s^ri:/ -- "Murray" with the infix. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 03:32:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:32:27 -0500 Subject: Duty Free Zone (1947?), Fun Size (1968) Message-ID: Greetings from Panama City, Panama. I leave for two days in David tomorrow. --------------------------------------------------------------- DUTY FREE ZONE We visited the "duty-free zone" of Colon. It`s also called "DFZ" or "free zone," or "EPZ" or "export processing zone." This is the largest duty-free zone in the Americas, and the second-largest in the world after China (Hong Kong). I was told that it began in 1947. OED doesn't have "duty-free zone," and OED's other "duty-free" definitions also appear to be way off. OT: You could probably buy a Dell here and save some money, but the place is a little creepy. (OED) b. Comb. duty-free shop, a shop at an airport, on a boat, etc., at which duty-free goods can be bought. 1965 Which? May 150/1 Not all airports have duty-free shops. 1969 Ibid. Mar. 79/1 Some ‘duty-free’ shop prices are too high. 1970 New Yorker 16 May 44/2 Maybe I should get him a gift at the duty-free shop. 1971 P. PURSER Holy Father's Navy iv. 22 We were already on the second of the two bottles we'd bought at the duty-free shop. B. n. A duty-free article; freq. used in pl., esp. of cigarettes, alcoholic drinks, etc., bought and imported free of duty by those returning from or travelling abroad; also, a duty-free shop. colloq. 1958 Times 16 Sept. 10/7 The meagre stub in his mouth had burnt out and I offered him one of my duty-frees. 1980 J. GARDNER Garden of Weapons III. xii. 349 I'm going to march you into the duty free at Tegel and make you buy them. 1982 Economist 21 Aug. 64/1 A sample shopping basket of duty-frees costs almost twice as much on LB-Färjorna lines as it does at..Schiphol airport. 1985 Sunday Times 10 Mar. 12/1 (Advt.), During the flight, our cabin staff will be coming round with drinks and Duty-Frees. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Colon, Panama -(new title everyone!) I'm curious as to know if the Duty Free Shopping in Colon, Panama, (a port of call on Carnival Legend's western exotic itinerary) also known as the FREE ZONE ... rec.travel.cruises - 23 Ene 2003 por Linda Coffman - Ver la conversación (6 artículos) (GOOGLE) http://www.grayline-panama.com/pty/english/sightseeing/shopping.htm Early pick up at your hotel at 7am to depart for Colon City, where the Duty Free Zone is located. It is one of the most important distribution centers in the world for imports and re-exports for Latin america. Your purchases will be subjected to aduana formalities if you want to take out the merchandises with you. Take in consideration that the main purpose of this area is for wholesale sales, therefore many shops will require a minimum amount of sales to be able to honore your purchases. Alternatively the acquired products could be retired at the International Airport just before your departure from our country not being subject then to duties or taxes. However many shops in the city are branches of the Colon Duty Free Warehouses and can offer you Duty free prices in Panama if you have two days for the formalities needed to receive your merchandise at the airport. Stores as Audiofoto Internacional, Multimax, Collins among many others are trustworthy. Note: You should bring your passport. It is open on working days only from Monday to Friday, from 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Please bear in mind that during the Jewish holidays (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 12/9/1959 ...election 82 to 81. The COLON FREE Zone of PANAMA, DUTY-FREE assembly and distribution.....Apply with brush, roller, floor brush. FREE 6-chip color chart Guaranteed by Good.....Refrigerator Plus this Deluxe camera Plus FREE film for life 1190 J All for Only Big 11.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Wednesday, December 09, 1959 711 k --------------------------------------------------------------- FUN SIZE We toured the local supermarket for picnic-type stuff. Snickers and Mars "fun-size" packages are sold here. I never understood "fun size." Are all other sizes "grim"? Would...ah...other, non-food items be considered "fun size"? The "fun size" term appears to be specific to Mars products. (TRADEMARK) Word Mark FUN SIZE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONERY. FIRST USE: 19681100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73080331 Filing Date March 15, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1050880 Registration Date October 19, 1976 Owner (REGISTRANT) MARS, INCORPORATED CORPORATION DELAWARE WESTGATE PARK 1651 OLD MEADOW ROAD MCLEAN VIRGINIA 22101 Attorney of Record LESLIE K MITCHELL Prior Registrations 0990287 Disclaimer WITHOUT WAIVER OF OR PREJUDICE TO ITS COMMON LAW RIGHTS, APPLICANT DISCLAIMS ANY EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS IN THE WORD "SIZE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19970219 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 19 03:57:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:57:09 -0500 Subject: Duty Free Zone (1947?), Fun Size (1968) Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has "duty-free zone" referring to Mexico from 1920. Also a cite about Russia having a "fifty-first zone which is duty-free" from 1911. SC From: > DUTY FREE ZONE > We visited the "duty-free zone" of Colon. It`s also called "DFZ" or "free zone," or "EPZ" or "export processing zone." This is the largest duty-free zone in the Americas, and the second-largest in the world after China (Hong Kong). > I was told that it began in 1947. OED doesn't have "duty-free zone," and OED's other "duty-free" definitions also appear to be way off. From indigo at WELL.COM Thu Feb 19 06:33:12 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:33:12 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Yes, that's what I meant: if it's a pan that's cast iron, I call it a cast iron pan. (With or w/o hyphen is fine w/ me.) If it's a pan made of something else, I just call it a pan, unless I specifically need it to be a teflon pan or a non-stick pan, in which case I call it those things. Although in our house most of the pans are cast iron, so we usually just say pan even for the cast iron ones. If it's deeper than about 2 or 2.5" then it becomes a pot to me. A pan is shallow. There are also bread pans & cake pans, but since I don't use those very often I don't have to use the words for them very often either. As for the other question about seasoning cast iron pans: it's all true. A well-seasoned pan develops a smooth, black non-stick surface that is very different from the bumpy, gray, very stick-prone surface of a new pan. I do use the tiniest possible drop of dishsoap when washing my cast iron pans, but the key thing is this: immediately after washing, you put them back on the stove & heat them until all residual water is evaporated; then you coat them with oil. (This procedure is known in our house as "the happiness of the pans". More than you wanted to know.) >That makes a lot more sense and is probably what Indigo Som meant. > >I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic >range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used >cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. > >Benjamin Barrett > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >> >>At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan >>>regardless of what it's made of? >>> >>>Benjamin Barrett >> >>If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls >>something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless >>what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron >>skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of >>silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. >>(I have some in each >>category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm >>from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not >>for the others. >> >>Larry >> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >>>>Behalf Of Indigo Som >>> >>>>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say >>>>"cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: gay marriage From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 11:47:58 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:47:58 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the valuable info. My curiosity is mostly sated! Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 13:48:53 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:48:53 -0500 Subject: Family Size, Biggie Size, Supersize Message-ID: Following up on "fun size," here are some other food "sizes." "Family size" is not an entry in the OED. "Family size" seems to have become popular about 1899, and then especially in products sold after WWII. "Biggie size" is from Wendy`s, and "Supersize fries" is from McDonald`s. Am I missing any other food sizes? FAMILY SIZE--547,000 Google hits, 15,900 Google Groups hits SUPER SIZE--244,000 Google hits, 104,000 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE--211,000 Google hits, 61,000 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE FRIES--435 Google hits, 335 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE FRIES--796 Google hits, 440 Google Groups hits BIGGIE SIZE--2,510 Google hits, 832 Google Groups hits (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Sampling before 1920--ed.) Indiana Weekly Messenger - 6/5/1919 ...prepare Bulgarian Blood Tea in a convenient FAMILY SIZE package, which can be obtained at.....it, I will be pleased to send you my large FAMILY SIZE package, which lasts five months.....Reunions. The annual reunion of the Diehl FAMILY will be hesd at the home of A. Diehl.....June 19. All friends and relatives of the FAMILY are cordially invited. The annual.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 05, 1919 603 k North Adams Transcript - 11/11/1901 ...you with the best at 98c for small FAMILY SIZE. large FAMILY SIZE and and for larger.. , Monday, November 11, 1901 0 k Daily Review - 10/24/1913 ...Law, contains enough to make seven liberal FAMILY SIZE desserts or fillings for seven.....less than four cents for each delicious FAMILY SIZE dessert or for each whole cake.....that will be delightfully new to your FAMILY. Use Snow-Mellow first as a topping.....madam, to your grocer and get for your FAMILY thit exquisite. wondarfol Snow-Mallow.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, October 24, 1913 408 k Elyria Evening Telegram - 5/7/1915 ...Jell is sold only in sanitary glass jars. FAMILY SIZE. 25c. One-pound jar physicians.....a quarter of a pint for a quarter; large FAMILY SIZE, 50c. Results absolutely.....made truly in the form of r-. Children love FAMILY take it pleasantly and with sutis-fiu.....with farts and fore. -fill. it miirht bo FAMILY of any country duritic war: t.hrpooplo.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, May 07, 1915 747 k (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: McDonalds Bashers -- Have they tried it all? ... (By the way, my typical McDonald's fast food dinner consists of a Big Mac Combo [Big Mac, Supersize Fries and a Large Orange Drink], and three Cheeseburgers ... alt.mcdonalds - 29 Nov 1992 by cvafy006 at vmsb.is.csupomona.edu - View Thread (1 article) vSilence #72: Grant Lee Buffalo ... wage bozo who drew the short straw at the last shift-selection and got stuck wearing the dorky headset and listening to people shout "Biggie-Size my Spicy ... rec.music.misc - 12 Jun 1996 by glenn mcdonald - View Thread (2 articles) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE CATEGORY LEADER IN 2-LB FAMILY SIZE ENTREES Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: COOKED AND FROZEN READY TO HEAT AND SERVE PREPACKAGED MEALS INCLUDING MEAT AND STEAKS, POTATOES, POULTRY, PORK AND PASTAS Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 240501 260103 260107 260108 260117 260120 260121 Serial Number 76522286 Filing Date June 12, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) On-Cor Frozen Foods, Inc. CORPORATION ILLINOIS 627 Landwehr Road Northbrook ILLINOIS 60062 Attorney of Record Adam Sacharoff Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SUPER SIZE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74451719 Filing Date October 28, 1993 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition March 7, 1995 Registration Number 1896607 Registration Date May 30, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) McDONALD'S CORPORATION CORPORATION DELAWARE 2915 JORIE BLVD. Oak Brook ILLINOIS 60523 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark BIGGIE SIZE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant and carry out services, and food and drink preparation services, namely, preparation of french fried potatoes and soft drinks. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 IC 029. US 046. G & S: french fried potatoes for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 IC 032. US 045 046 048. G & S: soft drinks for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75015864 Filing Date November 7, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition April 8, 1997 Registration Number 2075049 Registration Date July 1, 1997 Owner (REGISTRANT) Delavest, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 200 West Ninth Street Plaza Box 2105 Wilmington DELAWARE 19899 (LAST LISTED OWNER) OLDEMARK LLC LTD LIAB CO BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT NOT PROVIDED 100 BANK STREET SUITE 610 BURLINGTON VERMONT 05401 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Frank H. Foster Prior Registrations 1650884 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SIZE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 14:12:08 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:12:08 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) (fwd) Message-ID: For anyone who might be interested, my colleague did a little googling on this topic. Cheers, Lynne ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:47 pm +0000 From: Max Wheeler To: linguisticsdept at admin.susx.ac.uk, linguisticspgr at admin.susx.ac.uk Subject: Re: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice. By google: as good of a 30,500 how good of a 22,000 as bad of a 1830 how bad of a 3760 as new of a 54 how new of a 93 as old of a 49 how old of a 311 as beautiful of a 97 how beautiful of a 209 as ugly of a 78 how ugly of a 42 and with other degree modifiers that good of a 15,900 too good of a 14,100 so good of a 474 very good of a 118 quite good of a 20 real good of a 13 really good of a 17 Max Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 19 14:58:51 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:58:51 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a list of the "white" diners/burger joints that I could find in Northern NJ: White Manna White Mana White Diamond White Circle White Rose System You can follow an interesting discussion of their pros and cons at: http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=4248&st=30 Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > >There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. > >Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife > (a > >native) ate them in her childhood. > > > >There's also a number of variations on the "White" > >theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I > >think is in Hackensack. > > originating as "White Manor"? > > >There's also a White X > >System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. > > > >Any similar joints in NY? > > > I think so, although I can't remember the names. > There was a pretty > good movie a while back called "White Palace", with > Susan Sarandon > (who was a waitress in an eponymous hamburger joint) > and James > Spader, but I'm assuming the scriptwriter invented > the chain for the > occasion. > > larry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 19 15:16:52 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:16:52 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <200402190509.i1J59lvq026504@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >>> The SW part of England, though not Cornwall, if memory serves, was rhotic, and if I believe "her" is the pronoun they use, see the first ^ as ? couple of chapters of Lorna Doone set in Devon and Somerset. I"m pretty sure this form appears there. Also probably in Hardy's West Country novels. <<< Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Feb 19 17:53:27 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:53:27 -0500 Subject: Here at last Message-ID: I requested some months ago that the library here buy the following philological study: The fucktionary = Slownik wyrazen z fuck, by Maciej Widawski, Gdansk: Wydawn. Comprendo, 1994. Evidently there were difficulties involved -- I recently asked one of the guys in the Acquisitions dept. to ask his grandmother in Warsaw to go to a bookstore and buy it for us -- but instead, it was got, it seems, from The Polish Bookstore in Ottawa, (polishbookstore.com). Now that I have it before me, I wonder whether it was worth the effort. It certainly requires a better command of Polish than mine to get the full benefit of it. It's 221 pages, incluing a bibliography of dictionaries and studies. The entries include definitions and (apparently) commentary in Polish, and are supported by quotations in English, mostly unsourced. When a source is given -- David Mamet is cited, and James Jones, and others -- no work is specified, let alone a page reference. I can't even boast that we are the only kid on our block to have the book, since it's at the NYPL. I did succeed in astonishing the students who work in the department, and that's something, I suppose. George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 19 19:52:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:52:56 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077199928@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2004, at 6:12 AM, Lynne Murphy forwards: > For anyone who might be interested, my colleague did a little googling > on > this topic. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > Date: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:47 pm +0000 > From: Max Wheeler > To: linguisticsdept at admin.susx.ac.uk, linguisticspgr at admin.susx.ac.uk > Subject: Re: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) > > The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've > learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice... [lots of hits on "Deg Adv of a"] this shows that the construction with "of" is very common in american english. but that's already well known. this sampling doesn't control for source/context/etc. and doesn't compare the "of" construction to the corresponding construction without "of", so it provides no way of moving from "very widespread" to "standard". it could be like nominative coordinate objects ("between Kim and I") -- very widespread but not standard -- or like stranded prepositions ("What were you talking about?") -- very widespread and standard, even if objected to in some advice manuals. the question is: what is the practice of elite writers in current formal written american english? nominative coordinate objects don't cut it, but stranded prepositions certainly do. i'm pretty sure that exceptional degree marking with "of" doesn't cut it, though to be sure someone would have to do a study that controlled for the relevant contextual factors. i do know that i have *very* few examples from formal writing by elite writers (except in quoted speech). my experience is also that those who have only the "of"-less construction tend to notice occurrences of the "of" construction, to comment on them, and even to deride them, while those who are heavy (perhaps exclusive) users of the "of" construction simply don't notice instances of the "of"-less construction, and are often astonished to be told that they don't talk/write quite like many other people and that editors and teachers might even object to their usage. this is a common pattern for nonstandard vs. standard variants. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 20 03:54:22 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:54:22 -0500 Subject: Chocolatte, Welcome Drink (1965); "Primeval rainforests bedecked with clouds..." Message-ID: "PRIMEVAL RAINFOREST BEDECKED WITH CLOUDS..." Greetings from the Gran Hotel Nacional in David, Panama. Those interested in how NOT to write tourism literature should check out my itinerary for today: This enchanted land is the Chiriqui Highlands, the part of the Cordillera Central that defines the northern border of the province of Chiriqui. Primeval rainforests bedecked with clouds, noisy, chattering birds flash brilliant iridescent colors as they dart about their daily chores, flowering epiphytes bloom en masse high above the forest floor while gurgling streams glisten and tumble over great boulders in their dance towars the sea. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!--ed.) It is a beautiful landscape of cloud forests, volcanic peaks, coffee plantations and home to most of Panama's Guaymi Indians. --------------------------------------------------------------- WELCOME DRINK WELCOME DRINK--110,000 Google hits, 1,100 Google Groups hits WELCOMING DRINK--2,060 Google hits, 80 Google Groups hits I just had the Gran Hotel National's welcome drink, a Seco Herrerano. Actually, I just had ice water, but whatever. OED does not record "welcome drink." There are earlier "hits" in Newspaperarchive.com, but this is the first I spotted for the free hotel alcoholic thing. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/16/1965 ...be found here. RATE INCLUDES FOLLOWING: 'WELCOME DRINK upon arrival in Jamaica rnfle.....overlooking the Caribbean 'Complimentary WELCOME DRINK fruit basket placed in your.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 16, 1965 786 k --------------------------------------------------------------- CHOCOLATTE We visited the coffee plant of Cafe Ruiz (www.caferuiz.com) at Boquete, Chiriqui (Panama). The coffee is very expensive, but very very good. "Fair Trade Coffee" was discussed and dismissed by the Cafe Ruiz tour guide. "FTC" should be recorded. The Cafe Ruiz coffee shop offered the following. I don't think I've recorded "chocolatte" before, but there are 2,680 Google hits and some trademarks for it: ESPRESSO CAPUCCINO MOCACCINO CHOCOLACCINO CHOCOLATTE LATTE SABORIZADO CAFE HELADO+MOCALATTE --------------------------------------------------------------- OT: MARMALADE IN BOQUETE We also visited a marmalade factory. Excellent, excellent stuff! Just don't tell GOURMET or the NY TIMES' R. W. Apple about Boquete! The place is quickly being discovered, as is Panama. Tourism has shot up in the past four years. CONSERVAS DE ANTANO offers Guanabana, Maranon, and other flavors. There's not much "word-worthy" to report there. We met the owner, a Canadian-Panamanian named Cecilia MacIntyre (macintyre at cwpanama.net). I begged her to write a cookbook for this area. If you have regional food questions for this area, write to her care of our Panama Star tour group. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Feb 20 11:38:14 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:38:14 -0000 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo Message-ID: Some interesting quotes have come out of newspaperarchive.com. First is this from the "Coshocton Daily Age" for 31 Dec 1906: "Bill keeps up with the times and knows that skiddoo means 23". This equation is reinforced by a humorous piece in the "Elyria Daily Chronicle" for 17 September 1906: REAL SKIDOO PARTY Miss Schidu Will Give It Sept. 23 to Twenty-Three Girls A "skiddoo" party is the latest. Miss Margaret Schidu of Cleveland, O., will give a party on Sept. 23 in honor of her twenty-third birthday at her home, 23 East Twenty-third street, says a special dispatch from Cleveland to the Chicago Inter Ocean. "People have been having lots of fun with our name since the term 'skiddoo' has come into use." said Miss Schidu recently, "so I decided to have a real 'skiddoo' party on my next birthday. My age will be carried out prettily with twenty-three candles on the birthday cake, and a souvenir card lettered twenty-three will be distributed among the twenty-three guests -- I am going to have just twenty-three girls present, you know -- while an orchestra of twenty-three pieces will play behind a bank of twenty-three palms. I am trying to get a friend, a composer, to write a ballad entitled 'Skiddoo For You.' I propose to engage autos and change their license numbers to 23. I have an uncle who has a farm of twenty-three acres and shall take my guests there in the afternoon, where there will be dancing in the evening, with twenty-three dances on the programme." And a suggestion for the origin of the number appears in the "Humeston New Era" for 26 Dec. 1906: The slang words "skiddoo" and "twenty-three" have an associated meaning which is "get out of the way," "make way for your betters" and so forth. "Skiddoo" seems to be another form of "skedaddle," which is an old, familiar slang word for precipitate retreat. It is probably college slang, since it is derived from the Greek word "skedazein," which means run away. The figures "23" are a telegraphic signal or abbreviation, which means that messages marked with it need not be hurried through if there is more important matter to occupy the wires. A "23" message, therefore, is one that has to surrender the right of way if there are others that must be rushed through without delay, la other words, it has to get out of the way of its betters. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 12:02:23 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:02:23 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another colleague has now found lots of instances of "as hell of a", leading him to wonder whether 'hell' has been reanalysed as an adj. That phrase is totally foreign to my dialect. I'm guessing it's more Southern? (One of his e.g.s was from a John Prine song.) Meanwhile.... --On Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:52 am -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've >> learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice... > > [lots of hits on "Deg Adv of a"] > > this shows that the construction with "of" is very common in american > english. but that's already well known. this sampling doesn't control > for source/context/etc. and doesn't compare the "of" construction to > the corresponding construction without "of", so it provides no way of > moving from "very widespread" to "standard". I seem to have made a mistake in my cutting and pasting--he did compare it to the corresponding of-less construction further down in his message, and it's not in the version that I sent to the list. Sorry. In his comparison list,there were fewer without 'of', but when I tried to replicate his result, I got far, far more without 'of'. Doing it with actual NPs in place, I got: As good a job 35,800 As good of a job 3,830 As good a time 89,700 As good of a time 1,800 But this has no control for place. Searching just in .mil and .gov (definitely US, but likely to be higher register) I got: as good a = 5,350 as good of a = 131 as old a = 12 as old of a = 0 Looking in .com (which is likely but not guaranteed to be US English), I got: as good a = 205,000 as good of a = 19,200 as scary a =379 as scary of a = 48 So the 'of a' variant is definitely rarer in general. I also tried searching for "as good (of) a" plus a state name, thinking that if it's more common in the south, maybe pages with 'Texas' 'Alabama' or 'Kentucky' would have a greater proportion than those with 'New Jersey' or 'Minnesota'. The rate of 'of' constructions (using the adjective 'good') as a %age of non-'of' constructions was: FL 8.3%, TX 6.6%, WY 6.6%, MN 5.8%, AL 5.8%, KY 4.7%, NJ 4.2%, OR 3.8%, GA 3.1%, ME 3.0% (Georgia, of course, could be affected by the country name.) In this very unscientific survey, it does look a bit south-oriented, but west-central looks a bit of-ish too. And that's how I amused myself over breakfast... Cheers, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 20 15:27:28 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:27:28 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <4035F1A6.6781.B8419D@localhost> Message-ID: A prevalent spelling in the early days apparently was "skidoo". The expression (with or without the number) seems to have popped up rather suddenly in early 1906. My impression is that "skidoo" resembled "scoot" more than "skedaddle". -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Feb 20 17:12:50 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:12:50 -0000 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040220095554.02f12d70@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > A prevalent spelling in the early days apparently was "skidoo". The > expression (with or without the number) seems to have popped up rather > suddenly in early 1906. My impression is that "skidoo" resembled > "scoot" more than "skedaddle". The newspaper evidence is that the word, in either spelling, suddenly appears in 1906 and instantly becomes very common. It is more common for "skidoo" to be used without "23" than is "skiddoo". Some of the early citations seem to imply it is derived from "skid". The examples I quoted imply that "skiddoo" means the same thing as "23". Did "23" already commonly have the meaning of "go away" in 1906? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 17:52:11 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:52:11 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077278543@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 4:02 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Another colleague has now found lots of instances of "as hell of a", > leading him to wonder whether 'hell' has been reanalysed as an adj. > That > phrase is totally foreign to my dialect. I'm guessing it's more > Southern? > (One of his e.g.s was from a John Prine song.) new to me. a wild guess is that it's a reanalysis of "a hell of a". only with "as"? not also with, say, "too" or "so"? ("that hell of a" would already be possible, with a somewhat different meaning.) > Meanwhile.... [some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:05:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:05:02 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <825C55AC-63CD-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] > >this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: "I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for what's he's been through personally and professionally." -S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds and the steroid issue From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:18:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:18:17 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:05 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> [some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >> >> this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... > > Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: > > "I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for > what's he's been through personally and professionally." > > -S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds > and the steroid issue the MWDEU entry begins with citations from various sports figures, and goes on to jim lehrer, jeff smith (the Frugal Gourmet), ed koch, and erma bombeck. it concludes with: "the only stricture on it suggested by our evidence is that it is a spoken idiom: you will not want to use it much in writing except of the personal kind." arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:21:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:21:49 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. At 01:05 PM 2/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >>[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >> >>this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... > >Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: > >"I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for >what's he's been through personally and professionally." > >-S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds >and the steroid issue From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:38:39 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:38:39 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040220131710.02041430@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've >become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall >being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. I've heard it all my life. Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:35:42 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: Fwd: AAE movie Message-ID: I'll forward this from another list I'm on, in case anyone has a suggestion. (I don't like the Communication Disorders implication, but what can we do?) >X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:50:04 -0500 >From: "Shelley L. Velleman" >Subject: AAE movie >To: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) >X-Accept-Language: en >Sender: >List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.0.2 by LetterRip Software, LLC. >List-Unsubscribe: >X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu >X-PMX-Stop: Fri Feb 20 09:54:58 2004 >X-PMX-Start: Fri Feb 20 09:54:58 2004 >X-PMX-Version: 4.5.0.90627, Antispam-Core: 4.0.4.90552, Antispam-Data: >2004.2.19.92366 (pm7) >X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html >X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, PureMessage (score=0, required 5) >X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, >__MOZILLA_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, >__HAS_X_MAILER 0, __MOZILLA_MUA 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, >__CT 0, __CTE 0, X_ACCEPT_LANG 0, SUSPECT_LIST_HEADERS 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0' > >I'm looking for a movie (not a documentary) that has grammatical >features of AAE in it. So far, the best I've found is the character >Quentin in "The Best Man". Suggestions welcome! > >Thanks. > >Shelley Velleman >Communication Disorders >U. Mass. Amherst From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:46:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:46:48 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:38 AM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >> I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >> usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but >> I've >> become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't >> recall >> being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. > > I've heard it all my life. MWDEU's cites go back only to 1942-43. i suspect this could be improved on, but probably by years rather than decades. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:51:51 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:51:51 -0600 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040220131710.02041430@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've >become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall >being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. I first heard it in Milwaukee in 1982. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics >At 01:05 PM 2/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> >>>[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >>> >>>this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... >> >>Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: >> >>"I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for >>what's he's been through personally and professionally." >> >>-S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds >>and the steroid issue From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 19:02:24 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:02:24 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <23EEFF52-63D5-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:46 AM 2/20/2004 -0800, you wrote: >On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:38 AM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>>I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >>>usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but >>>I've >>>become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't >>>recall >>>being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. >> >>I've heard it all my life. > >MWDEU's cites go back only to 1942-43. i suspect this could be >improved on, but probably by years rather than decades. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Jim Lehrer would fit that age, and maybe regional, profile too; he's 65-ish and from Texas. From yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 20 23:56:23 2004 From: yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM (NOLA DAISY) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:56:23 -0800 Subject: all up in my kitchen Message-ID: Just getting back to the listserv, but had to respond to this post! I don't have any documentation, but another example I've heard is, "all up in my Kool-Aid and don't even know the flavor!" I've heard friends of mine in community theatre [in New Orleans] use that particular expression for at least 8-10 years now. And I know I used it just last week in reference to my boss being "in my business and space." Hope that helps! Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: all up in my kitchen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luanne, I got a response on "all up in my kitchen" and variants thereof from a former student who lives in the Cleveland-Erie area. I'll paste it in: My niece, who lives & works in a suburb of Cleveland, reports that two co-workers, native Clevelanders, have heard the phrase. One said it's used by blacks. The other said he hadn't heard it in a long time, & the last time it was by a cook, race/ethnicity unspecified. It definitely does mean "you are in my business," but seems to have given/be giving way to a large assortment of other expressions which mean the same thing. The two she gave as examples are, "They're all up in your/my conversation," and "Do you want to know what I had for breakfast, too?" If you'd like me to find out more details on this report, just lemme know. I'll pass on whatever else I hear. Beverly At 03:28 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Another query I received: > >>contain an element of "provoking me." My sister reports having heard this >in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web diaries/blogs, but I've never >encountered it myself. > > > >I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > >Thanks. > >Luanne > >Luanne von Schneidemesser >Dictionary of American Regional English >University of Wisconsin-Madison >600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall >Madison WI 53706 >http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Feb 21 00:49:16 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:49:16 -0800 Subject: Neck of the woods Message-ID: A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Perhaps I'm failing to see the forest for the trees. Can anybody shed light on the origins of this expression? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Feb 21 01:09:51 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:09:51 -0500 Subject: Neck of the woods In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077295756@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 20, 2004 at 04:49:16PM -0800, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and > now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and > several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first > occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's > a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this > one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something > like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how > "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Have you checked OED? Its definition reveals: b. orig. U.S. A narrow stretch of wood, pasture, ice, etc. Now usually in neck of the woods: a settlement in wooded country, or a small or remotely situated community; (hence more generally) a district, neighbourhood, or region. in this neck of the woods: in this vicinity, around here (also used elliptically). Formerly also neck of timber. Citations from 1637 onwards follow. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 02:49:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:49:06 -0500 Subject: "Burial of the Sardine," Pizzacones, Pollera, Mojaderas, Chaquiras Message-ID: Greetings again from David, Panama. Carnival is about to start here any minute. I love Panama! 23 SKIDDOO--See my prior posts. "Twenty-three" dates at least to 1899. Vaudeville performer Billy Vann supposedly put the phrase together. ----------------------------------------------------- "BURIAL OF THE SARDINE" BURIAL OF THE SARDINE--367 Google hits, mostly for Francisco Goya's painting of that name. Not in OED. From THE VISITOR/EL VISITANTE (PANAMA), Vol. 10, no. 4, February 13-26, 2004, pg. 9, col. 3: _A bizarre ceremony_ After four days of dancing, jumping and watching colorful parades, Panamanians end Carnival activities with a bizarre tradition: the "burial of the sardine." On Ash Wednesday, very early in the morning, hundreds flock to the beaches to witness the ceremony, which represents a resolve to forgo earthly pleasures in preparation for Lent. ----------------------------------------------------- PIZZACONES Our lunch stop today--the Dos Rios hotel restaurant--served "Pizzacones tambal--Patacones cubiertos con tamate, mozarella y peperoni." There are 16,800 Google hits for "patacones," but only this one for "pizzacones" (in a Spanish-language publication from Panama). I only know that they're good: http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2002/02/28/hoy/revista/465255.html Para resolver el problema, elegimos una cosa de cada categoría. Entre las entradas calientes, pedimos un pulpo al carbón que no me gustó mucho, puesto que lo sentí algo cauchudo, pero los pizzacones (patacones con salsa marinara, queso mozzarela y peperoni) fueron grandes favoritos de los RDT jóvenes. Las almejas a la macha, con salsa de tomate y un toque de picante complacieron a todos y el seviche frito también gustó, y de las entradas frías, puedo recomendar sin hesitación el seviche preparado de camarones, uvas y pepitas de marañón. Entre las sopas, la crema de maíz con cangrejo, un potaje de un bello color cremoso y de textura aterciopelada haría que Mafalda cambiara su oposición militante a la sopa. ----------------------------------------------------- POLLERA POLLERA + PANAMA=1,660 Google hits OED has no entry (Yeesh!), but there is one 1964 citation under "montuno." From the same tourist publication as above, pg. 8, col. 2: The obvious question is, why does every body want to go to Las Tablas during Carnival? Some say it is due to the grace with which the queens wear the _Pollera_ (the country's national female attire) during Carnival Tuesday. Others say it is the girls themselves (Las Tablas has the reputation of being the birthplace of the country's most beautiful women). No one knows for certain. (GOOGLE) Pollera, The National Costume of Panama Pollera. Pollera Costume, Panama City. The Panamanian Girls display their gala attire to best advantage on fiesta occasions. The Pollera ... plaza.ufl.edu/bruiz/PW/pollera.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages ----------------------------------------------------- MOJADERAS Another Carnival term used in Panama. My online OED has stopped working. (GOOGLE)(81 hits--ed.) EL PANAMA AMERICA: RESUMEN DE NOTICIAS 2001 (comunidad) - [ Translate this page ] ... Las instalaciones que se utilizaron para celebrar culecos o mojaderas debían disponer de letrinas químicas y sanitarios suficientes. ... www.epasa.com/resumen2001/comunidad.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages Panamatours Magazine ... In the mornings, the "mojaderas" (water is sprinkled on carnival participants in the streets) refresh the tropical heat; in the afternoons the parades with ... www.panamatours.com/Magazine/carnaval_2000.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages Carnaval en Panamá - Panamatours.com - [ Translate this page ] ... En las mañanas, las “mojaderas” refrescan el calor tropical; en las tardes los desfiles y paradas con “Reinas” de extravagantes y lujosos disfraces en ... www.panamatours.com/Magazine/magazine_esp.htm - 9k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.panamatours.com ] Actualícese con La Prensa Web - [ Translate this page ] ... El alcalde Manuel Cárdenas está resuelto a prohibir también en el área los culecos y las mojaderas que se dan durante las festividades del Carnaval en la ... mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2002/ 08/25/hoy/nacionales/680824.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages Actualícese con La Prensa Web - [ Translate this page ] ... las reinas salieron con una hora y media de retraso al paseo tradicional, donde miles de personas esperaron hasta las 11:00 am cuando se iniciaron las mojaderas ... mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2003/ 03/05/hoy/nacionales/897411.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from mensual.prensa.com ] Panamainfo.com ... and goes on until dawn. One Panamanian Carnival tradition are the "mojaderas" or "getting drenched" in water. By fire hose, water ... www.panamainfo.com/ viewArticle.php?seccion=events&id=53&x=2 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages Explore Panama - Panama Canal ... goes on until dawn. One Panamanian Carnival tradition are the "mojaderas" or "getting drenched" in water. Anyone becomes a target ... www.explorepanama.com/interest/carnival/carnivalr.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages ----------------------------------------------------- CHAQUIRAS CHAQUIRAS--861 Google hits, 7 Google Groups hits OED? (OED online has stopped working for me just now.) From HELLO PANAMA, Vol./Issue No. 1 2002, pg. 34, col. 2: Panama's fascinating crafts range from the colorful Molas hand-made by the Kuna Indians, robes, and chaquiras (multicolor bead necklaces) made by the Ngobe Bugle Indians, to Panama hats and the Montuno (typical men's outfit) ceramics, wood and stone carvings, "tagua" sculptures (also known as vegetable ivory), decorative miniature balconies, and "tinajas." (OT: We return to Panama City on Saturday and I return to New York City on Sunday. NOOOOOOOO!!) From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 21 03:51:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:51:13 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <40364012.1967.1EA9A6B@localhost> Message-ID: >The examples I quoted imply that "skiddoo" means the same thing as "23". >Did "23" already commonly have the meaning of "go away" in 1906? "Twenty-three" and "skidoo" [I ignore spelling variation] were synonymous in 1906, as Michael Quinion says. "Skidoo" MAY be derived from "scat"/"scoot"/"skedaddle" + "shoo", I suppose. Before 1906 I cannot find any use of either in this sense (of course my database is incomplete). There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is apparently no "skidoo 23", nor "24 skidoo", nor "23 skedaddle", nor "23 scat", nor "86 skidoo", nor .... My tentative inference is that "23 skidoo" as a fixed combination was the original form, with synonymous "23" and "skidoo" both abbreviated versions. The virtually simultaneous appearance of all three is compatible with this hypothesis. [One or both of "23" and "skidoo" could have existed earlier in this or some related sense, but it looks as though the 1906-and-later usage was derived from the fixed combination.] This does not seem very consistent with the "23" being from "Tale of Two Cities" (I find this [true? false?] folk-etymology as early as May 1906!). My casual speculation is that "23 skidoo" originated in some popular slogan or song or play. I can imagine a magician in a comedy for example saying the nonsense "23 skidoo" as a charm to make things disappear, or to make his flying carpet fly, or whatever. [Around 1900, there was the play "Hindoo Hoodoo", for example, in which an Indian mesmerist projected men's souls here and there: if I had a script available, I'd take a look. Maybe the ending "-doo" was overused (example wild notion only).] -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Feb 21 13:10:47 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:10:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cross-Examination" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cross-examination (OED 1827) 1705-7 _A collection of state tracts, publish'd on occasion of the late revolution in 1688. And during the reign of King William III_ 168 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The said King _James_ ... caused most of the said Writs to be burnt, conveyed away the great Seal, the pretended Prince of _Wales_, the Queen, and divers of the Conspirators in that Intrigue, and Accessories thereunto; to prevent, as is believed, their cross Examination. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 15:16:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:16:13 -0500 Subject: "Police Package" Message-ID: From Saturday's NEW YORK POST, 21 February 2004: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/18498.htm MAYOR MIKE SILENCES THE SIRENS February 21, 2004 -- Driving around in a city-owned car equipped with lights and sirens - known as "the police package" - has long been one of the favorite perks of municipal officials. But it's one of those privileges that isn't really meant to be used - except in an emergency. Unfortunately, one of them got caught doing exactly that - and not during an emergency, either. Which is why Mayor Bloomberg was right to strip more than 250 officials of the souped-up security status. It all came about because a TV news crew caught Carol Robles-Roman, Bloomberg's deputy mayor for legal affairs, routinely using her lights and siren as a means to part traffic. Not only that, her driver was videotaped driving on the shoulders of roads to avoid congestion. The mayor once threatened to "shoot" anyone who was caught using flashing lights and sirens improperly. Luckily for Robles-Roman, he decided such drastic action wasn't necessary. But the mayor - whose own official vehicles rarely use the police package and even wait at traffic lights just like the rest of us - raised a valid point that none of his predecessors seemed to consider: "It is hard to understand why they have to rush to get someplace in order to pass a piece of legislation, file a piece of paper, or whatever." Again, they're for emergencies only - and only for officials whose jobs require them to respond to emergencies. So he stripped the package from 78 percent of those who'd had it. Now that's a government cut to which no one can object. --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. From a Dos Rios menu: CAFE AMERICANO CAFE AMERICANO CON LECHE TROPICOLADA KOALA KOLADA AMAPOLA--I was told this is coconut cream and pineapple juice, like a pina colada HERRADURAS CHICHOS BAR--another "bar" (salad bar, milk bar, et al.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 23:05:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:05:13 -0500 Subject: Body Bar; Manguini; Panama Cuisine Postcards Message-ID: Everything--including the Panama national library and most museums--is closed for Carnival (or Carnaval). Sorry--no historical food research. Even the Canal Museum (intended for tourists) is closed on this holiday (promoted for tourists). --------------------------------------------------------------- PANAMA CUISINE POSTCARDS Food postcards are being seen increasingly, from Paris to Ghana. Formerly, it was just animals or women on tourist postcards. The postcards are usually one dish each, with a sumptuous picture and a full recipe on the other side. E-mail me fast if anyone wants any postcards. These 13 were sold at the Marriott Hotel (disa at lewiserv.com): Ropa vieja--Shredded beef Arroz con pollo--Rice with chicken Tortillas de maiz nuevo (changa)--Fresh corn patties Bienmesabe Tasajo--Dry meat Gallo pinto Flan de pixbae--Palm fruit flan Sancocho de gallina--Chicken soup-stew Tamales panamenos--Panamanian tamales Lechon asado Tamal de olla--Tamal cacerole Mamallena--Bread pudding Chicheme --------------------------------------------------------------- MANGUINI This drink is featured today in the local newspaper. It's mango, champagne, and Casal de Gordis. Not many Google hits yet, but there is one from the Food Network. The name appears to be a blend of "mango" and "martini"...There is also a nice newspaper story on "Raspao"--shaved ice. --------------------------------------------------------------- BODY BAR, HYDRATING LOTION There is no soap in my room. Instead, there is a "BODY BAR with essence of lemon and eucalyptus." It's by LORD & MAYFAIR COLLECTION, from the Marietta Corporation in Cortland, NY. There are 50,000 Google hits for "body bar." It must mean something! "Body bar" is not in the OED. Is the "body bar" a soap or a high energy snack? As the old Chevy Chase Saturday Night Live skit goes, is it a floor wax or a dessert topping? There's also "hydrating lotion" (7,500 Google hits, also not in the OED). That contains "apricot kernel oil." Bronx parking ticket judges usually don't smell of lemon, apricot, and eucalyptus. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 22 02:44:53 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:44:53 -0800 Subject: Memes Message-ID: A meme is a quick-moving online phenomenon, now. Sounds like a meme to me... >From the Minneapolis Star Tribune, February 21, 2004 "We're talking about $70 Canadian, which is a little steep," Barefoot said. But he's also swayed by the sheer power of this Internet movement, or meme. "A meme is a..." he paused, searching for layman's terms, "a quick-moving online phenomenon. I love the whole digital democracy thing. And it's a terrific idea." From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 03:16:34 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:16:34 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: Continuing to battle it out, we find in newspaperarchive-- 19 Aug. 1919 _Iowa City Citizen(IA)_ 5/5 A story about Carl Mays being the only "underhanded pitcher of any real class in the major leagues...." As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. <> SC From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Feb 22 03:31:29 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:31:29 -0600 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 In-Reply-To: <200402220317.i1M3H0G28224@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: > As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms = > a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. Bill James' _Historical Baseball Abstract_ says of Carl Mays: "Threw underhand, real hard." This isn't decisive, but James is a Kansas City fan, very fond of Dan Quisenberry, who was a submariner; I would expect him to be precise on this matter. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 03:57:51 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:57:51 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: And, I just found out the answer in a 1922 cite. <> SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 04:13:20 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:13:20 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 Message-ID: I'm not sure it this antedates anything, as I don't know where to find a cite other than this one. 10 Aug. 1922 _Witchita(KS) Daily Times "part 1"/1 < MANGINI + MANGO + CHAMPANGE--25 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit The article in today's newspaper here in Panama called it "Manguini," but here below are some hits for it as "Mangini." It's a play on "Bellini," not "Martini." PANAMA CUISINE POSTCARDS: At tonight's Panama folklore dinner show, some of the same cuisine postcards were sold (as previously posted), but there's another one for "carimanolas" (yucca fritters filled with meat). LATIN AMERICAN FOOD BOOK: This 2003 book is sold at several places: Eating & Drinking in Latin America: A Menu Reader and Restaurant Guide by Andy Herbach (Author), Michael Dillon (Author) It's very helpful, but it's just a long list. No historical citations, no dates, no detailed explanations. It's not a dictionary, but it's a start...The co-author, Andy Herbach, reviewed his own book for Amazon and gave it five stars!! (GOOGLE) Mangini - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... This champagne-mango cocktail is a play on words on the peach-based Bellini, which was ... I like to think of the Mangini as an improvement, and it makes a great ... www.globalgourmet.com/food/holiday/ pageant/cocktails/mangini.html - 8k - En caché - Páginas similares Laguna Grille - Drinks & Desserts - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... Made with Raspberry Vodka, Cointreau & Champagne $7.00. MANGINI- An authentic favorite. Made with Absolut Vodka, Champagne & Mango Juice $6.50. ... www.bodeonline.com/lagunagrille/drinks.html - 17k - En caché - Páginas similares Naked Fish - [ Traduzca esta página ] ... Cuban Bellini - Champagne and Cruzan Pineapple rum with mango juice, $5.75. Mangini - mango juice and sparkling champagne, $5.00. Tropicana ... www.where-to-dine.com/M/M718.asp - 22k - Resultado Suplementario - En caché - Páginas similares (GOOGLE GROUPS) REQUESTS from Thursday, January 27, 2000 ... As of now, are menu is as follows: Reception: - Mangini (mango puree and Champagne) - Tropical Limeade (non-alcoholic) - Ricotta and Vegetable Empanadas (passed ... rec.food.recipes - 29 Ene 2000 por Betty E. Kohler - Ver la conversación (3 artículos) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 22 04:55:20 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:55:20 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 In-Reply-To: <4037CE31.1347.3CB7452@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:31 PM -0600 2/21/04, Jim Parish wrote: >Sam Clements wrote: >> As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms = >> a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. > >Bill James' _Historical Baseball Abstract_ says of Carl Mays: "Threw >underhand, real hard." Hard enough to kill--which in fact he did, an Indians infielder named Chapman, if memory serves. (Oh, that's memory of reading about it, in case you were wondering. It's a bit before my time.) Anyway, that was the only instance of a player being killed by a pitch in major league baseball. I seem to recall Mays was never the same after that. (Although that was even more true of Chapman...) >This isn't decisive, but James is a Kansas City >fan, very fond of Dan Quisenberry, who was a submariner; I would >expect him to be precise on this matter. > Yes, I would too. James's HBA (first edition) is pretty reliable to begin with. larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 04:57:25 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:57:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "side arm" (baseball) 1898 Message-ID: OED and M-W both have 1908. Using Newspaperarchive, 28 Feb. 1898 _Ft. Wayne(IN) News page?/4 <> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 22 05:02:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? A. Not only bears, but wolves, too, roamed Manhattan in the 17th century, even after the British took it over from the Netherlands. "Memorial History of the City of New York" (1892), edited by James Grant Wilson, says of the late 1600's: "A dense forest in which deer herded plentifully covered the middle and upper parts of the Island, where a few of the Manhattans lived in almost primitive barbarism. Wolves roamed at large through this wilderness, and committed occasional ravages during the remainder of the century; and bears were not infrequent in their visits to the island, and afforded rare sport to the settlers, as the annals show. "A bear hunt which took place, as late as 1680, in an orchard between the present populous Cedar Street and Maiden Lane, is chronicled by the Rev. Charles Wooley." A different, apocryphal-sounding account, possibly inspired by the same shooting, claims that a freshly killed bear that had crossed the Hudson was displayed by a butcher on the site of what later became the Washington Market in Lower Manhattan. According to this account, that was the origin of the term "bear market," meaning a fall in stock prices, or speculating in anticipation of a fall. Another explanation of the term comes from the Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898), which cited the proverb of "selling the skin before you have caught the bear," and referred to those who entered into contracts in the notorious South Sea bubble in the early 18th century, to transfer stock at a stated price. The DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE was written by Ebenezer Cobham Brewer (1810-1897). I don't know why the 1898 edition was cited; Brewer probably didn't add the entry after his death. OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't help matters. It's wrong. I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 05:10:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:10:33 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: From: "Laurence Horn" > Hard enough to kill--which in fact he did, an Indians infielder named > Chapman, if memory serves. I seem to recall Mays was never the same after > that. (Although that was even more true of Chapman...) Mays went 27-9 the next year, helping the Yanks to a pennant. He was never the same, just better. SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 05:26:29 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:26:29 -0500 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:02 AM Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times > From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html > Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't help matters. It's wrong. I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. Barry, I'll give 'em what fer. Sam From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 22 14:45:15 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:45:15 -0500 Subject: Local Yokels (1914) Message-ID: Greetings again from Panama City. I leave the "foreign yokels" for the "local yokels" of New York City later today. A NEW YORK POST movie review of the new Ray Romano-Gene Hackman film WELCOME TO MOOSEPORT mentioned "local yokels." I didn't see that in the OED. HDAS? DARE? Jonathon Green? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 7/21/1930 ...I never send home souvenirs The banners LOCAL YOKELS sell At Drop Inn and The cards.....credited to this paper and also the LOCAL news published herein. tjhehnvean Press.....gasoline taxes, but with a fair return to LOCAL units. On the question of monopoly In.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, July 21, 1930 774 k Nevada State Journal - 3/15/1932 ...to New York the other evening to entice the LOCAL YOKELS (reporters) into giving him some.....the world and settled In Reno to write a book of his travels, says he was deported.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, March 15, 1932 723 k Nevada State Journal - 3/24/1932 ...the counterfeiters who has been swindling LOCAL YOKELS by posing as our assistant. His.....Audubon Societies and wishes the LOCAL >jroup of nature-lovers the best wishes.....of wild life in this ttate and the LOCAL club can do it. The Audubon Society's.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 24, 1932 664 k Nevada State Journal - 2/25/1932 ...end of six months they owe somebody That LOCAL YOKELS no longer say to a gal, "Glad to.....has been no loss of life reported. The LOCAL highway crew did the best they could.....but thanks to the efficient work of the LOCAL crew in pulling them out, no serious.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 25, 1932 744 k Nevada State Journal - 2/18/1932 ...neither of them are Overheard One of the LOCAL YOKELS bothered Miss Ouinan last night.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 18, 1932 689 k Washington Post - 7/19/1914 ...in the history of sport, and this for the LOCAL YOKELS to fight for, and It la by no.....in that business to-day, and otie whaling a book which will appeal to all who at the same.....throw the hook at me catalina ulaml. The LOCAL photographer, that it penetrated the.....are re corded by Mr, Bullen In his book ths forty sailor-men's chanties which he.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, July 19, 1914 716 k Zanesville Signal - 9/2/1928 ...Tsion" of the event get down to some LOCAL YOKEL. Jthen I .we cases: have been.....line, that "Young Love" gathered to await a LOCAL that was several hours overdue. By.....knew that he hacl been "stood up" and for a LOCAL All looked curiously out of eyecorners.....who're you talking to? You know I ain't no LOCAL. I know as much as you do about what.. Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, September 02, 1928 2418 k From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 16:52:16 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:52:16 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) Message-ID: A _swirly_ (swirlie, swirley), at least in the US, is a few bigger boys picking on a smaller kid at school and holding him upside down over a toilet and sticking his head in the bowl and flushing. I can find a usenet cite from 1990, but it should be older than that. Nothingprior in our archives, not in OED(that I could find), not in M-W. Not in newpaper archive(that I could find). DARE ends before _Sw_ . No doubt a movie/tv skit from before1990 used this, but I don't remember one. Any help? SC From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 22 17:01:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:01:23 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f964$3a493d30$77601941@sam> Message-ID: >I can find a usenet cite from 1990, but it should be older than >that. Nothingprior in our archives, not in OED(that I could find), not >in M-W. Not in newpaper archive(that I could find). DARE ends before _Sw_ . > >No doubt a movie/tv skit from before1990 used this, but I don't remember one. I don't have any old citations, but maybe the "National Lampoon" or something like that would show it. I'm surprised it's not in the usual dictionaries. I remember it from ca. 1967 myself. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 22 17:49:39 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:49:39 -0600 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: The origin of stock-market "bear" is already well recognized: "bearskin jobber" (shortened to "bear")--someone who would sell the bearskin before having caught the bear, i.e., someone selling something he didn't yet have, i.e., in the stock-market, someone selling a stock he didn't own, i.e., selling short. Selling short is of course done when one expects the price to go down, i.e., one is bearish on the prospects of the stock. For an overall discussion of stock-market "bull" and "bear", see my article "Possible Origin of Stock Market _Bull_ In a Proverb: 'He That Bulls The Cow Must Keep The Calf' (i.e., He's Stuck With Something He Might Not Want." in: _Studies in Slang, part VI_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 24), edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry A. Popik. Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 1999. pp.54-60. Gerald Cohen From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 23 00:46:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:46:33 -0500 Subject: Caesar salad (1934?) Message-ID: Jim Landau posted this back in February, 2002. I've edited to get to the important part. <> I think that this is a reworked version of the words a la the 1950's. The original lines say "Waldorf salad" http://www.ajmackintosh.ukgateway.net/film/YoureTop.txt If this was already noticed, then 'scuse me. SC From slangman at PACBELL.NET Mon Feb 23 02:47:54 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:47:54 -0800 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 Message-ID: For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. His second edition of the Dickson Baseball Dictionary has 1919 for submarine. He is well on his way to a third edition with hundreds of antedatings. Tom Dalzell Sam Clements wrote: >I'm not sure it this antedates anything, as I don't know where to find a >cite other than this one. > >10 Aug. 1922 _Witchita(KS) Daily Times "part 1"/1 > ><Giants was chained up by the underhand giants of Carl Mays, the blonde >submarine pitcher of the Yanks.<< > >Evidently, the term "underhand" in referring to a style of pitch at this >time, was actually a "submariner" or a pitcher who delivered the pitch from >a low, sidearm motion. He was, in no way, throwing a pitch 'underhanded' as >might be delivered in softball. > >SC > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 03:56:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:56:38 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 In-Reply-To: <403969DA.9090605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. His second edition of > the Dickson Baseball Dictionary has 1919 for submarine. He is well on > his way to a third edition with hundreds of antedatings. Here's earlier: 1917 _N.Y. Times_ 15 Sept. 16 (ProQuest) Boston's Submarine Pitcher Gets Four Hits to Win Own Game by 6 to 5 Score. ... Carl Mays, the pitcher of the submarine ball, had a lot to do with beating the Yanks. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 03:57:29 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:57:29 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 In-Reply-To: <403969DA.9090605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. I'd say for baseball terms, the first stop should be ProQuest or Newspaperarchive. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 02:50:58 2004 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:50:58 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo Message-ID: For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could provide, onlist or offlist. Thanks! David From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 23 05:08:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:08:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) Message-ID: 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 <> From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 23 07:01:43 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:01:43 -0800 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: Gerald may have covered this in his Forum Anglicum article, but the fable about the man who sold the bearskin before catching the bear is originally from Aesop, I think, and occurs in slightly different bestial dress in Henry V, when the French emissary comes to the king on the eve of the battle of Agincourt to demand the English surrender. Not so fast, says Henry; and then reminds the emissary: The man that once did sell the lion's skin While the beast lived, was killed with hunting him. Geoff Nunberg > From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: > >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html >Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and >northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? > >A. Not only bears, but wolves, too, roamed Manhattan in the 17th >century, even after the British took it over from the Netherlands. > >"Memorial History of the City of New York" (1892), edited by James >Grant Wilson, says of the late 1600's: "A dense forest in which deer >herded plentifully covered the middle and upper parts of the Island, >where a few of the Manhattans lived in almost primitive barbarism. >Wolves roamed at large through this wilderness, and committed >occasional ravages during the remainder of the century; and bears >were not infrequent in their visits to the island, and afforded rare >sport to the settlers, as the annals show. > >"A bear hunt which took place, as late as 1680, in an orchard >between the present populous Cedar Street and Maiden Lane, is >chronicled by the Rev. Charles Wooley." > >A different, apocryphal-sounding account, possibly inspired by the >same shooting, claims that a freshly killed bear that had crossed >the Hudson was displayed by a butcher on the site of what later >became the Washington Market in Lower Manhattan. According to this >account, that was the origin of the term "bear market," meaning a >fall in stock prices, or speculating in anticipation of a fall. > >Another explanation of the term comes from the Dictionary of Phrase >and Fable (1898), which cited the proverb of "selling the skin >before you have caught the bear," and referred to those who entered >into contracts in the notorious South Sea bubble in the early 18th >century, to transfer stock at a stated price. > > > The DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE was written by Ebenezer Cobham >Brewer (1810-1897). I don't know why the 1898 edition was cited; >Brewer probably didn't add the entry after his death. > OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from >England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. >Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't >help matters. It's wrong. > I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 08:10:43 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:10:43 EST Subject: Hamburger Steak Sandwich (1895); Caesar Salad (1946); Manhattan Clam Chowder Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MANHATTAN CLAM CHOWDER Waiting for me in the mail was the March 2004 GOURMET. On the cover is: "COLLECTOR'S EDITION--NEW YORK." Collector's edition? No library gets GOURMET? TIME OUT NEW YORK has been publishing an EATING AND DRINKING GUIDE for several years. Robert Sietsema of the VILLAGE VOICE has published much on Cheap Eats. Chowhound.com's Jim Leff has a book on NYC food. There's not a whole lot of uncharted territory to do here--except for my work that no one knows about. This "collector's edition" is a real mishmash. There's a long article on Mexican food--a growing presence--but classics like pizza and bagels and egg creams are nowhere. This is the most extended lexical/historical blurb, and it's wrong. Pg. 160: MANHATTAN CLAM CHOWDER Treat yourself to fresh clams for this recipe--they make all the difference. This dish originated in Rhode Island during the late 19th century, when, as story has it, Portuguese immigrants added tomatoes to their chowder. British New Englanders believed their creamy chowder to be superior and named the Portuguese version after Manhattan, presuming that New Yorkers were the only people crazy enough to add tomatoes. (The dish was also called "Coney Island Clam Chowder," and not because it originated in Rhode Island. Oy. My plane shoulda crashed--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CAESAR SALAD Sam Clements has noticed this 1946 "Caesar salad," from Newspaperarchive.com. I can't open up the article on this computer. I tried my Ancestry.com subscription, but Ancestgry says it has this publication only until 1943....It's a month or two earlier than what's been posted. Yes, I'd posted that the original Cole Porter "You're the Top" lyrics mention a "Waldorf" salad. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mansfield News Journal - 8/2/1946 ...stint. The big food rage in Hollywood the CAESAR SALAD will be Introduced to New.. Mansfield, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1946 697 k ---------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAMBURGER STEAK SANDWICH The hamburger is an important sandwich. Here's another 1890s citation, FWIW. The HAWAIIAN GAZETTE is a new addition to the Newspaperarchive database. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Hawaiian Gazette - 10/29/1895 ...poultry, corned beef, veal, sausage, HAMBURGER STEAK (raw or kidneys, lamb, raw.....or plain bread and butter or ou raw-beef SANDWICHES What Our Neighbors Say. V That.....shape are popular forms. These artistic SANDWICHES must Dot lose their freshness.....napkio over the plate of prettily piled SANDWICHES. Besides the possibility of.. Honolulu, Hawaii Tuesday, October 29, 1895 607 k (ANCESTRY.COM) 29 October 1895, HAWAIIAN GAZETTE (Honolulu, Hawaii). pg. 7, col. 1: For the differentiation of the sandwich I suggest the following materials: THE STAPLE, BREAD.--White, graham, black or rye, whole wheat, Boston brown bread; biscuits, rolls, scones; wafers, crackers, saltines; dry toast; gingerbread toasted and buttered. THE FILLING, _meats_.--Ham, tongue, poultry, corned beef, veal, sausage, Hamburger steak (raw or cooked), kidneys, lamb, raw scraped beef (salted, excellent for invalids and dyspeptics). (...) A word as to style, a prime factor in the success of the sandwich. With the exception of boiled ham, chicken, turkey, sardines and raw oysters, the meats and fish should always be chopped or pounded, as they can thus be seasoned with more variety. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 09:02:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:02:19 EST Subject: AOS (All Options Suck) Message-ID: The financial columnist Christopher Byron in today's (Monday's) NEW YORK POST uses "AOS (All Options Suck)." The term is not in the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF SLANG or in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. It's not a comment on stock options; Byron says it's a military phrase. Maybe Dave Wilton has heard of it? http://www.nypost.com/business/18678.htm Add it all up and for Martha Stewart it's what they call in the military an "AOS" situation (as in "all options suck") - and the hour is now at hand. One way or the other, this case is heading for the jury, and closing arguments could begin as soon as the end of this week. * Please send e-mail to: cbyron at nypost.com (GOOGLE) UrbanDictionary.com/aos ... All Options Suck - None of the possible choices or outcomes are desirable. We can spend Christmas at your parents or at my parents? That's an AOS scenario if I ... www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=aos - 8k - Cached - Similar pages Foreword: The war against terrorism and the transformation of the ... ... for energy supply security. One speaker wryly commented that this was a case of AOS – all options suck. A realistic view, it was ... www.iiss.org/eusec/heisbourg1a.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages uncuTonline.com: News Archive ... In sadder news, I've confirmed with Ben that our friends All Options Suck are done for now. It's sad to see AOS go, but I trust we'll see them each back in ... www.uncutonline.com/news/feb_03.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages Rash Weblog of October 2001 ... AOS. In my NASA console days, this meant Acquisition Of Signal, with the Loss Of... counterpart in LOS; but this new one's from the military: All Options Suck. ... www.wunderland.com/WTS/Rash/white/2.htm - 34k - Cached - Similar pages I'm left black and blue... broken. ... Suck and One Step Behind. They play an interesting mix of screamo and punk. We knew two of them from when we went to Reno, and then back when they were in AOS. ... uncutchick16.diaryland.com/030717_80.html - 14k - Supplemental Result (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: List of Muslim countries We've run out of options here. We've tried diplomacy (for a month) ) The US military have a term for this, "AOS." All Options Suck. ... alt.games.baldurs-gate - Oct 16, 2001 by David Lloyd-Jones - View Thread (559 articles) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 09:22:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:22:32 EST Subject: AOS (All Options Suck) (or, Stink) Message-ID: Sorry, but it's "stink" as well as "suck." I don't know which came first. (WORDSPY) AOS abbreviation. All options stink; a situation in which there is no optimum or ideal course of action. Example Citation: "A new acronym has crept into the jargon-cluttered world of Washington. AOS. All Options Stink. It's a fair summary of the dilemmas facing George W Bush." —Kate Ironside, "Why Bush has limited options for retaliation," Western Morning News, October 3, 2001 Notes: As the earliest citation shows, today's word is a brand new addition to the civilian lexicon, but it appears to have had prior use in military circles. Earliest Citation: "The question of how to battle terrorists in their remote and rocky Afghan havens has perplexed military planners in both the Clinton and Bush administrati ons, some of whom share a darkly comic answer when asked about the war plan. 'It's called AOS,' they say, using a barracks abbreviation for 'all options stink.'" —"U.S. forces amassing, awaiting strike orders," New York Times News Service, September 30, 2001 Subject Categories: Language - Acronyms and Abbreviations The World - Military Posted on October 15, 2001 From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Feb 23 13:24:55 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:24:55 -0000 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Minor antedate: 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a boy’s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp Those who remember Lindsay Anderson's movie _If_ (1968) may recall that one hapless boy is given just such a torture and those of us who had the dubious pleasure of attending all too similar establishments recall the activity - but as for a UK name? Nothing springs to mind. Jonathon Green From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 23 14:30:44 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:30:44 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f9cb$1f0deef0$77601941@sam> Message-ID: The character "Schl�mil" is in Offenbach's "Contes d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 (composition finished in 1880). Schl�mil is certainly a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as deliberatly and aptly chosen. Offenbach probably spoke or was at least familiar with Yiddish. So far, the date of the English and American premiers, which may or may not lead to an antedating, have eluded me. --- Sam Clements wrote: > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > < peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what his > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 23 14:41:52 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:41:52 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <20040223143044.49769.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Note: Schl�mil is spelled Schemil in some versions of "Contes..." --- James Smith wrote: > The character "Schl�mil" is in Offenbach's "Contes > d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 > (composition finished in 1880). Schl�mil is > certainly > a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as > deliberatly and aptly chosen. Offenbach probably > spoke or was at least familiar with Yiddish. So > far, > the date of the English and American premiers, which > may or may not lead to an antedating, have eluded > me. > > --- Sam Clements wrote: > > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > > > < > peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what > his > > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches > anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will > be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act > quickly and decisively > |or slowly and > cautiously. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 15:32:19 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:32:19 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 01:24:55PM -0000, Jonathon Green wrote: > Minor antedate: > > 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a > boy???s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was > learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp The HDAS files have a 1977 example of this. Jesse Sheidlower From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Feb 23 15:34:14 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Your Name) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:34:14 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, ... Ditto here for the "as ADJ of a N as". (That sort of split in awareness is pretty common, isn't it? Who would say "I could care less" to mean "I couldn't care less" if he were paying the least bit of attention?) The "too ADJ of a N" comes rather easily, so I guess I have heard it a lot, tho if I caught myself saying or writing it I would drop the "of", e.g., "he's too nice (of) a guy to do that". Seán Fitzpatrick (Grew up in Chevy Chase, MD in the '50s) From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Feb 23 15:46:31 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:46:31 -0800 Subject: Neck of the woods Message-ID: I know 'neck of land,' as in "The narrow neck of land between Columbia and Costa Rica is called Panama." I'm sure you know that, too. fritz >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 02/20/04 04:49PM >>> A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Perhaps I'm failing to see the forest for the trees. Can anybody shed light on the origins of this expression? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 15:50:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a > boy’s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was > learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp Here's slightly earlier: The Washington Post November 23, 1986, Sunday, Final Edition SECTION: WASHINGTON POST MAGAZINE; PAGE W11; OUT THERE HEADLINE: Grade-School Adventures of a Real Turkey BYLINE: Alex Heard BODY: ... pang of doubt. "Hey, my mother is out there, waiting for this canoe number." I might have turned back had Fate not sent three burly sixth-graders through the door at that moment. "Swirly!" they cried as they tore away my canoe and grabbed my ankles. "Swirly!" they screamed, lowering me head first into the thundering toilet. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:00:51 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f9cb$1f0deef0$77601941@sam> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > < Schlemiel. No matter what his opportunities he was sure to have ill > luck. >> Here is what appears to be an earlier usage: 1870 _Hours at Home_ July 290 (American Periodical Series) Some of the stories have the zest of novelty and quaintness. That of "Anschel, the Schlemiel," for instance, is exceedingly clever. [This points to prior use: "But the most characteristic volume of Jewish stories which has lately appeared is that entitled _Friday Night: a Selection of Tales Illustrating Hebrew Life_. These stories had already appeared in the _Jewish Messenger_, of this city; some of them are translations and adaptations, others original."] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:17:04 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:17:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <20040223143044.49769.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:30 AM -0800 2/23/04, James Smith wrote: >The character "SchlÈmil" is in Offenbach's "Contes >d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 >(composition finished in 1880). SchlÈmil is certainly >a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as >deliberatly and aptly chosen. I wondered about that too when I saw it. >--- Sam Clements wrote: >> 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 >> >> <> peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what his > > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> > Is "ancient Israelites" a joke here? Somehow "shlemihl" (like "shlemozzle", "shmendrik", etc.) always struck me as a relatively modern Yiddishism and not a Biblical term. Or is Abel described as the first shlemihl in the Hebrew Pentateuch? L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:19:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:19:45 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <20040223153414.FUWY25581.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: At 10:34 AM -0500 2/23/04, Your Name wrote: >On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >>usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, ... > >Ditto here for the "as ADJ of a N as". (That sort of split in >awareness is pretty common, isn't it? Who would say "I could care >less" to mean "I couldn't care less" if he were paying the least bit >of attention?) I would, actually. I also sometimes say "That was brilliant" to mean "That was idiotic" or "another beautiful day" to mean "lousy weather". I know, I'm just perverse. >Seán Fitzpatrick >(Grew up in Chevy Chase, MD in the '50s) Larry Horn (grew up in NYC in the 50s) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:28:22 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:28:22 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo In-Reply-To: <001a01c3f9c8$74d69060$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: >For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some >authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World >Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific >cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into >such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could >provide, onlist or offlist. > >Thanks! > >David That was the one in which Babe Adams, Pirate rookie pitcher and the original "Babe", won three games, if memory serves. Sorry, can't remember the cheers. "I got you, Babe!" seems unlikely. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 17:43:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:43:28 EST Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo; Schliemiel Message-ID: SCHLIEMIEL--This isn't in the old ADS-L archives? The character of Peter Schliemiel was used in a play, about 1819. It's famous. 1909 WORLD SERIES LINGO--Just buy a subscription to www.paperofrecord.com, click on THE SPORTING NEWS, and read over the 1909 World Series accounts. The magazine BASEBALL started about 1909, and in the first year or so contained an article on baseball slang. I think Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY mentions the article in his bibliography. From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Feb 23 17:53:20 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:53:20 -0800 Subject: "word" Message-ID: Dear linguists: As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you could cllarify this for me. Thanks. Jerome Foster From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Feb 23 18:09:47 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:09:47 +0000 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It means, approximately, "that's the truth" or "that's real/genuine". Then there's also "word up". Clarence Major (from Juba to Jive) has that as 'call for attention; used as an expression of one's word of honor". And then there's "word to your mother", which is defined on urbandictionary.com as: 1) I fully agree with you, you nicely brought up fellow 2) Say hellow to your sexy milf 3) I'm a white boy in need of a cool sounding motto. The last is undoubtedly directed to Vanilla Ice, who had the phrase in his song "Ice, Ice Baby" (or whatever the name of it was). "Word Up" was the title of a hit single by Cameo in 1988 (which has now infested my brain for the rest of the evening. Lynne --On Monday, February 23, 2004 9:53 am -0800 Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: "word" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dear linguists: > > As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a = > nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage = > that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in = > the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I = > guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's = > Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. = > Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand = > it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you = > could cllarify this for me. > > Thanks. > > Jerome Foster Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Feb 23 18:29:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:29:37 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: <00da01c3fa35$ecf4c220$0400a8c0@WBJF> Message-ID: At 09:53 AM 2/23/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Dear linguists: > >As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a >nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage >that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in >the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I >guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's Doonesbury >strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. Times aritcle >on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand it from the >context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you could cllarify >this for me. > >Thanks. > >Jerome Foster Cameo's 1986 song Word Up! was my first introduction to it. Shortened from there to just Word! I always thought it was slang for saying Hi essentially, like What's up? But I'm about as wonder bread as they come. "Word up everybody says When you hear the call you´ve got to get it underway Word up it´s the code word No matter where you say it you know that you´ll be heard....." Kathleen E. Miller News Assistant The New York Times From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Feb 23 19:32:57 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:32:57 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll double-check the date, but I think the German romantic Adalbert von Chamisso published his Peter Schlemihls wundersame Geschichte in 1814. Peter Mc. --On Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >> 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 >> >> <> Schlemiel. No matter what his opportunities he was sure to have ill >> luck. >> > > Here is what appears to be an earlier usage: > > 1870 _Hours at Home_ July 290 (American Periodical Series) Some of the > stories have the zest of novelty and quaintness. That of "Anschel, the > Schlemiel," for instance, is exceedingly clever. > > [This points to prior use: "But the most characteristic volume of Jewish > stories which has lately appeared is that entitled _Friday Night: a > Selection of Tales Illustrating Hebrew Life_. These stories had already > appeared in the _Jewish Messenger_, of this city; some of them are > translations and adaptations, others original."] > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 23 19:36:55 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:36:55 -0700 Subject: "word" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Feb 23 20:29:37 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:29:37 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Below is one of the more interesting questions sent to the ADS web site. Please respond to the original sender, and to the list. Note that I already forwarded her the OED's earliest cite for "straight=not gay," although perhaps someone can do better (and with the whole history of "homosexual" and "lesbian" mess). Also, the citations in HDAS for fag, etc., seem mostly to be from outsiders. The request below is looking for insider terms. They may very well be the same, but I don't have anything here which convinces me. Sally, sissy, girl, nanny, nance, nancy, nancy-boy, sill, gunsel, brownie, fag, faggot, sissy, fairy, pansy, lily? Grant ............. Dear Sirs and Madams, I found your site via a link at the site of Oxfor University press and I hope someone of you might be able to help me with a somewhat weird etymological question (or at least tell me where I could get some help with respect to it). Currently, I am working on a translation of a story settled in 1930ies USA (Cleveland, to be precise), which was originally written in German, from German to English. One problem with this rather obcure task is that I am no native speaker, but of German origin, but the main problem is that all 'slang' and colloquial terms that supposedly should be used are not only 'slang' but also dated. The second problem is that bilingual dictionaries normally only give very tame translations for colourful expressions. Anyway: What I desperately need to know is, and I hope that this does not ask too much of you in terms of what is appropriate, is what, in the 1920ies or 1930ies a male and a female homosexual, respectively, would have called themselves. I learned that the word 'homosexual' was introduced to the English language in then 1910, while 'lesbian' and 'heterosexual' came up in the 1920ies, but all these terms strike me as sounding rather abstract and artificial. Was there any word of that time that was used like 'gay' is used today, any euphemistic phrase (of which I know quite a lot in Germany but that does not help me an inch, unfotunately), or any informal phrase homsexuals of either gender would have called themselves in the US? Second: Is there any hint when the word 'straight' as synonym for 'heterosexual' was introduced? I'd be absolutely grateful for any help with this dilemma, and sincerely ask your apologies if you are not the correct adress for requests like this one. Thank you for your efforts, Yours gratefully Margit Ritzka Margit Ritzka Schwertgesweg 16 40670 Meerbusch-Osterath Tel. 0049 2159 678 633 e mail: margit at blotter.de From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Feb 23 21:37:23 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:37:23 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? Message-ID: A book entitled The Homosexual in America by Donald Webster Cory (1951) states: The word [gay, used of a homosexual] made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalysts have informed me that their homosexual patients were calling themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in every corner of the United States where homosexuals might gather.... pp. 107-08 Unfortunately, as far as I know, no citation has been turned up from the pornographic literature of the period immediately following World War I to support Cory's claim. The earliest docmented use of the adjective "gay" in the "homosexual" sense, as reported in the OED, occurs in the word "geycat" (meaning "a homosexual boy"), and is taken from a 1935 collection of prison and underworld slang. As far as some of the other terms for homosexuals are concerned, "queer" is attested from the 1920s, but not in self-referential contexts and almost always with a strongly negative connotation (until very recently, of course). "Pederast" and "Sapphist" certainly existed during the 1920s -- in fact, both are recorded in the writings of Bloomsbury circle members, who presumably weren't intolerant of homosexuality -- but they do not seem to have been used in a particularly self-referential way. "Sodomite" and "Sodomist" are entered in the Century Dictionary of 1891 (the former being attested many centuries before), but the definition, "persons guilty of unnatural sex," obviously carries a negative, "outsider's" connotation. A strong sense of disparagement also appears to have been intended for early (1930s) uses of "dyke," "bulldyke," and its variants. It might be worth checking Vito Russo's The Celluloid Closet, which deals with the representation of homosexuality in film from early in the history of the genre, to see what anecdotal evidence might be given there. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 22:02:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:02:09 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo In-Reply-To: <200402230453.i1N4r6p02867@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, davemarc wrote: > For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some > authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World > Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific > cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into > such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could > provide, onlist or offlist. This is the World Series during which Ty Cobb is supposed to have called Honus Wagner a "krauthead," although I think there is a lack of documentation for the authenticity of this story. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Feb 23 23:06:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:06:19 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077535977@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Oops! Just in case anybody cares, that should be "Adelbert." PMc --On Monday, February 23, 2004 11:32 AM -0800 "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > I'll double-check the date, but I think the German romantic Adalbert von > Chamisso published his Peter Schlemihls wundersame Geschichte in 1814. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 23:31:06 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:31:06 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? To me, it doesn't, but whenever I ask for black coffee here in Boston, I invariably get asked if I want sugar in it. I didn't have this problem in Chicago. (On a related note, in a proper Chicago hot dog establishment, ordering a hot dog with everything properly excludes ketchup. Out here, you ask for everything, you get ketchup, too. Bleh.) -- Steve From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 00:43:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: Peaches & Cream (1870); Cesar Cardini (1956); There goes the neighborhood! (1966) Message-ID: CESAR CARDINI More "Caesar salad," from Proquest's LOS ANGELES TIMES (now almost through December 1957): (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Obituary 2 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 7, 1956. p. B8 (1 page): _Cesare Cardini_ Funeral services for Cesare Cardini, 60, creator of Cesare salad, will be conducted today at 2:30 p.m. in Pierce Bros. Beverly Hills Chapel, followed by interment in Inglewood Park Cemetery. 2. Cesar Cardini, Creator of Salad, Dies at 60 Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 5, 1956. p. 31 (1 page): Cesar Cardini, 60, credited with the invention of the Cesar salad, died Saturday night in Good Samaritan Hospital following a stroke at his home, 8738 Bonner Drive. Mr. Cardini devised the salad while operating the restaurant and hotel which still bears his name in Tijuana. Since 1935 he had lived in Los Angeles and was active in the marketing of the salad dressing he concocted. He was born in Lago Maggiore, Italy, worked in many European hotels an came to the United States when he was 20. For a time, before going to Tijuana, he owned a restaurant in Sacramento. He leaves his widow Camille, a daughter Rosa of the Los Angeles address, two sisters, Maria and Carlotta of Italy, and two brothers, Alex and Caudencio, who are in the restaurant business in Mexico City. Funeral services are pending with Pierce Bros., Beverly Hills. --------------------------------------------------------------- PEACHES AND CREAM PEACHES AND CREAM--44,100 Google hits, 7,740 Google Groups hits You come on like a dream, peaches and cream Lips like strawberry wine You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine. ---Ringo Starr, "You're Sixteen" (1974) (He was 34--ed.) I had a delicious strawberries and cream while in Panama. Peaches are also important there; I had peach ice cream at Nikko's. OED has "peaches and cream," as in a complexion, from 1901 George Ade. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)(The first citation is also on MAKING OF AMERICA-CORNELL--ed.) 1. THE OVERSOUL OF MANSE ROSEBURGH. The Galaxy. A Magazine of Entertaining Reading (1866-1878). New York: Feb 1870. Vol. VOL. IX., Iss. No. 2.; p. 214 (18 pages) Second page: "She's just peaches and cream," said Rosenburgh, as he stared at the lily and rose complexion, the blue eyes and golden hair. "I should like to take a spoon and eat her." 2. TWO COUSINS. BY KATHERINE F. WILLIAMS.. Peterson's Magazine (1849-1892). Philadelphia: Jun 1878. Vol. VOL. LXXIII., Iss. No. 6.; p. 426 (5 pages) First page: Her complexion certainly was better. There was no question of pink and white, it is true, but the dusky, muddy look was clearing away. As it did so, one observed how delicate was the tracery of her eyebrows, how full and smooth were her temples. Her lips, too, grew as scarlet as ripe barberries. But the great charm was her magnificent coloring. It was not that of milk and roses; say, rather, of peaches and cream. 3. BOTH BEWITCHED; A Philadelphia Woman is Mesmerized by a Villain and Falls Under his Influence. ANOTHER CASE. That of a Pennsylvania Girl Who Runs Off With Her Father's Colored Coachman. UNACCOUNTABLE FOLLY. The National Police Gazette (1845-1906). New York: Jun 11, 1887. Vol. VOLUME L., Iss. No. 508.; p. 6 (1 page) : Our Philadelphia correspondent, May 21, says: Mary Emily Babbington, a voluptuous little blonde, with large blue eyes and a complexion all peaches and cream, applied to Lawyer William P. Swope for legal advice. 4. --How She was Groomed--; -From "Acquired Beauty"-- Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: Feb 1890. Vol. VOL. IV, Iss. No. 2.; p. 117 (1 page): ...I walked to the long mirror in the drawing-room and, behold! a radiant, bright-eyed creature with youthful curves of face and head and shoulders, with a seventeen-inch waist and a complexion of peaches and cream burst upon my sight. 5. FOR WOMAN'S WEAR EDITED BY MRS MALLON. The Ladies' Home Journal (1889-1907). Philadelphia: Aug 1890. Vol. Vol. VII,, Iss. No. 9; p. 17 (1 page): A scarlet one gives a glow to a pale face, a blue one gives a rather cold look, a white one brings out all the color, a mauve one is rather trying to anybody who has not peaches and cream in the way of a complexion,... 6. HUGABLE, KISSABLE GIRLS. The National Police Gazette (1845-1906). New York: Aug 30, 1890. Vol. VOLUME LVI., Iss. No.677.; p. 2 (1 page): Their complexions are of the peaches and cream hue, their limbs fully developed, they are full of sap, and the sight of a city mash makes them quiver and nearly sets them wild. --------------------------------------------------------------- THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD! THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD--36,800 Google hits, 12,100 Google Groups hits. I was looking at the American Airlines "Sky Mall" catalog (www.skymall.com). There was an ad for a "Sonic Mole Chaser." The mole took one look at the thing and declared, "There goes the neighborhood!" I remember the 1960s Columbus cartoon, but I forget where it comes from. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Santa Maria Discovers Southwest By Richard Corrigan Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 25, 1966. p. B1 (1 page): "Go back, we don't want to be discovered." "Well, there goes the neighborhood." 2. Flying Colors; Do We Want Little Green Men Moving in Next Door? By Art Buchwald. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 3, 1966. p. E7 (1 page): WHEN THE flying saucers were sighted over Ann Arbor, Mich. recently, the first reaction from one of the residents was "Dammit, there goes the neighborhood." 3. Johnson Assails GOP 'Panic-Mongers'; President Campaigns for His Party Before Enthusiastic Crowds By Carroll Kilpatrick Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 13, 1966. p. A1 (2 pages): Pg. A15, Col. 1: "That sad point is made by an old joke of the day," Mr. Johnson said. "When two Indians saw the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria sailing toward their shore, one groaned: 'Oh, Lord. There goes the neighborhood.'" From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:23:14 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:23:14 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: >I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly professors. Bethany U of TN From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:35:14 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:35:14 -0600 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: <200402240123.i1O1NFX32506@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly > professors. Both phrases - "word" and "my bad" - are in fairly frequent use in at least one online forum - the Television Without Pity boards (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/), which specialize in rather sardonic commentary on various television shows. Jim Parish From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 01:42:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:42:04 -0500 Subject: Monkey Bread (1946, 1957); OUP Encyclopedia Message-ID: MONKEY BREAD--26,800 Google hits, 743 Google Groups hits (most are for the bread, not the baobab tree) MONKEY BREAD + NANCY REAGAN--37 Google hits "Monkey bread" was cited here before, but here are the latest cites in ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES. Nancy Reagan baked "monkey bread," but did not invent it. OED has "monkey bread" from the "monkey bread tree" (baobab--I saw many of these in West Africa last month), but did not choose to have an entry for this bread...I dropped off some Guanabana marmalade and Panama cookbooks at the Bonny Slotnick used cookbook store nearest NYU. She said that Andy Smith is working on "bread." Hope this helps. For anyone's information: http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html February 13, 2004 In this issue: Save OUP Encyclopedia launch date. The Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, to be published this fall by Oxford University Press in the US, will be launched with festivity in October. If you have been following the progress of this tome in these pages, you know that Andy Smith is the Editor-in-Chief, and that yours truly and many of our friends and associates are contributors. I don't have a lot of details yet, but there are several events planned and one is on October 16 at the National Museum of American History, (Smithsonian) in Washington, DC, with a symposium and some other events. Andy says, "We have a general outline of the program -- In addition to a few speakers, we will have two major panels: What is American Food? and What is American Drink?" Panelists have not yet been selected. But you can still put that date on your calendar. As soon as Andy sends more information, I will post it here. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Caller Ask for Recipes on Turkey, Bread, Grapes Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 26, 1957. p. A5 (1 page): Here are the three most-asked-for recipes: turkey Marco Polo, monkey bread and frosted grapes. (...) _Rich, Buttery Dough_ Monkey bread, so popular with the ladies at luncheon, is a rich, buttery bread. Serve it with your favorite jam or preserve for a breakfast treat or at tea time, too. (...) _MONKEY BREAD_ 1 1/2 cakes, yeast 1 cup lukewarm milk 1 tablespoon sugar 1/2 cup butter or margarine, melted 1 teaspoon salt 3 1/2 cups sifted enriched flour Melted butter or margarine. METHOD: Dissolve yeast in lukewarm milk. Add sugar 1/2 cup melted butter, salt and flour. Beat well. Place in large greased bowl, cover with clean cloth and let rise until doubled in bulk. Knock down and roll out on floured board very thin. Cut dough in diamond-shaped pieces. Dip each piece in melted butter and arrange in a ring mold until mold is half filled. Let rise until it reaches the top of the pan. Bake at 400 deg. until golden brown. Turn out on a round plate and let guests break off pieces. This makes a rich bread. 2. CONFIDENTIALLY LUCILLE LEIMERT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 1, 1946. p. A5 (1 page): _SURE CURE_--Helen Weigel Brown, New York career girl visiting in Los Angeles, is as cool as a cucumber and nothing seems to ruffle her. But it wasn't always that way and Helen admits it. SHe used to be a quaking mass of nerves till she cured herself, and you'd never guess how! By making bread--raisin bread, monkey bread, rye bread, egg bread! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:59:35 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:59:35 -0600 Subject: Antedating of schlemiel (1889) Message-ID: This is in reference to the ads-l antedating of "shlemiel" to the early 19th century. ---- Here are a few references on "shlemiel" 1) In _Studies in Slang, part 1_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 14/1), edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen, (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1985: NATHAN SÜSSKIND (and very secondarily GERALD COHEN): "Origin of _shlemiel_ 'simpleton, unlucky bungler'-- pp. 71-84 a) "Nathan Süsskind's treatment in Copeland-Süsskind 1976"....page 71 b) "N. Süsskind, Gerald Cohen: Further thoughts on _shlemiehl_"......page 78 2)In _Studies in Slang, part 3_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 20, edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen (Peter Lang: Frankfurt a.M.), 1993: Gerald Cohen: "More on _shlemiel_", pp. 156-159. The origins of "shlemiel" go back well beyond the 19th century, to a Talmudic story involving Zimri (identified with Shelumiel in the Talmud), who got himself into a first-class pickle and was slain by Pinehas. Modesty precludes me from going into further detail here, but Süsskind has it all spelled out. Btw, the late Nathan Süsskind was Professor Emeritus of German and Jewish Studies (City College, NYC) when I first met him in the 1980s. I was startled to see that he had a variety of manuscripts in various stages of completion but had resigned himself to not publishing any more. I quickly realized that circumstances had presented me with an important task for the scholarly community, namely encouraging him to complete his unfinished work and publishing it. His items appeared in my series of working papers _Comments on Etymology_, primarily in a supplement I started for him, _Comments on Judaism_. I later compiled the most important ones in my _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_ (vol. 2; 1991). Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 24 04:34:30 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:34:30 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? In-Reply-To: <403A2C43.19808.190BA0C@localhost> Message-ID: >The earliest documented use of the adjective "gay" in the "homosexual" >sense, as reported in the OED, occurs in the word "geycat" (meaning "a >homosexual boy"), and is taken from a 1935 collection of prison and >underworld slang. But "gayboy" = "homosexual man" appears (HDAS) to date from 1903 ... and even without that early citation "gay boy" would be natural by analogy to (apparently very prevalent) 19th century "gay girl" meaning "prostitute" (still so used in South Asia). Given "gay boy" = "male prostitute" (the narrowest analogy), extension to "homosexual man" in mainstream use would be certain IMHO, and if "gay boy" = "homosexual man" then I think immediate "gay" = "homosexual" is a cinch. Just a plausibility argument. I suspect that "gaycat" assumed its homosexual implication (to the extent that it had any) from "gay" rather than the other way around: "gaycat" basically meant "amateur tramp" originally AFAIK (whence?), and only later "sidekick"/"possible catamite". -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 24 05:02:22 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:02:22 -0500 Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS "gay boy" from 1904. So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. But the interesting part was the actual quote: 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am I just misreading this cite? SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 05:53:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:53:56 -0800 Subject: troublesome line division Message-ID: from our own paul mcfedries's Word Spy book (2004), p. 190: ...The use of the term was possibly inspired by the semi- otician Umberto Eco's 1967 essay... line divisions courtesy of the editors, or (more likely) their word-processing programs. what i want to know is: just how close did umberto eco come to being an otician? arnold "can you hear me now" zwicky at csli.stanford.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 07:46:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:46:09 EST Subject: Life "as we know it" (1926) Message-ID: I was just searching for the end of the world as we know it. I feel fine. The phrase "as we know it" supposedly originated in the 1950s--much earlier than the 1991 REM song--but it's earlier than that. Fred Shapiro might have still earlier, but I don't know it. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 6/10/1932 ...sub You WEre discussing the state of love-LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT" "WEll." he mused, "if.....The same friends, the home. This is nor AS strange, bu IT's pretty good. Anyway.....lag tor the freer, eASier "Preclstly But WE are off the.....baby hAS a new tooth. Common interests, "If IT's not the kids, IT la at le AS habIT.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, June 10, 1932 795 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUR WORLD LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WE re about 9 per cent.....pressure to flatten rushes and other plant LIFE in shallow ponds where the mosquIToes.....penciled that he had seen all there wAS to LIFE and lived long enough. He tied one end.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 818 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUR MAKING LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WE re about 9 per cent.....in'ariabr? are very conservative. I don't KNOW whether they are better cITizens or not.....pressure to flatten rushes and other plant LIFE in shallow ponds where the mosquIToes.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 824 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUft WORLD ___ LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....Miss Gertrude Johnson, 46 wAS fighting for LIFE in the CIT hosp ITal here today and Georg.....quotes) inly are very conservative. I don't KNOW whether they are better cITizens or not.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WEre about 9 per cent.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 820 k Lincoln Star - 9/16/1931 ...to unseen realITies. They have to interpret LIFE's values, whereAS science interprets.....could be worse than armed conflict AS WE KNOW IT? Your letter refers to the risht of.....and he can enjoy all of the luxuries of LIFE, AS WE ll AS the necessITies, on much.....ITs chief consideration. You want to KNOW IT thers is a rational order in the.. Lincoln, Nebraska Wednesday, September 16, 1931 686 k Indiana Weekly Messenger - 12/2/1926 ...LIFE, said Professor Russell, at leASt LIFE AS WE KNOW IT. "If this earth WEre taken.....YOUNG PEOPLE AND ADULT The Message of the Book of Ruth. In order to grASp the matter.....a region there Is no hope of looking for LIFE AS WE KNOW IT, but there might exist.....there must be sWEpt into view the whole book of Ruth. The lesson text which is to be.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 02, 1926 808 k Monessen Daily Independent - 6/9/1932 ...You WEre discussing the states of love-LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT." "WEll." he mused, "if.....1'ou have discussed two stages of love-LIFE liverish Infatuation, and the I'crils of.....any bones about IT" I stated. "He didn't KNOW the old man wAS dead, but he admITted.....of us in this party hove where one watches LIFE funnel through, particularly if one is.. Monessen, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 09, 1932 912 k From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 10:19:06 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:19:06 -0800 Subject: "Word to the Mother" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077559787@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: In the African American community, Word to *the* Mother is used in deference to the mother country--Africa. Lynne Murphy wrote: It means, approximately, "that's the truth" or "that's real/genuine". Then there's also "word up". Clarence Major (from Juba to Jive) has that as 'call for attention; used as an expression of one's word of honor". And then there's "word to your mother", which is defined on urbandictionary.com as: 1) I fully agree with you, you nicely brought up fellow 2) Say hellow to your sexy milf 3) I'm a white boy in need of a cool sounding motto. The last is undoubtedly directed to Vanilla Ice, who had the phrase in his song "Ice, Ice Baby" (or whatever the name of it was). "Word Up" was the title of a hit single by Cameo in 1988 (which has now infested my brain for the rest of the evening. Lynne --On Monday, February 23, 2004 9:53 am -0800 Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: "word" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dear linguists: > > As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a = > nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage = > that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in = > the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I = > guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's = > Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. = > Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand = > it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you = > could cllarify this for me. > > Thanks. > > Jerome Foster Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Feb 24 12:32:07 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:32:07 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ditto MSU; long gone dInIs (aka an elderly professor) >On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: > >>I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >>meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word > >No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly >professors. > >Bethany >U of TN From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 24 13:51:22 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:51:22 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo Message-ID: David, I trust you are familiar with SABR, The Society for American Baseball Research, whose members spend endless hours researching such things. If not our url is http://www.sabr.org/ If anyone knows the answer to your question it probably will be a SABR member and if not one of us will be able to find the information if it exists. BTW. Every year SABR publishes a membership directory complete with descriptions of expertise and my favorite is Stan Musial who describes his expertise as hitting a baseball. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "davemarc" To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: davemarc > Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some > authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World > Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific > cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into > such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could > provide, onlist or offlist. > > Thanks! > > David From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 24 14:04:34 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:04:34 -0500 Subject: Nathan Su"sskind (was: Antedating of schlemiel (1889)) In-Reply-To: <200402240500.i1O50Vvq000508@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: ------------------------------ Btw, the late Nathan Süsskind was Professor Emeritus of German and Jewish Studies (City College, NYC) when I first met him in the 1980s. I was startled to see that he had a variety of manuscripts in various stages of completion but had resigned himself to not publishing any more. I quickly realized that circumstances had presented me with an important task for the scholarly community, namely encouraging him to complete his unfinished work and publishing it. His items appeared in my series of working papers _Comments on Etymology_, primarily in a supplement I started for him, _Comments on Judaism_. I later compiled the most important ones in my _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_ (vol. 2; 1991). ------------------------------ Mr. Su"sskind (as we knew him then, without doctorate or professorial rank) was my German teacher at City College ca. 1971. My wife and I remember him with great fondness. I was an experienced language student and was often the first to answer a question. Mr. Su"sskind started using me as a foil in class, something like: "Please, Harris, try again. From Mandel I'd expect such a mistake, but not from you!" Although I knew, and we all knew, that he wasn't serious, I felt hurt by these remarks, and once I pulled up the courage to tell him he was immediately apologetic and stopped at once. We have recently moved from the Boston area to Philadelphia, and my wife reminded me that he was the only person we knew of to move to a larger apartment just to have space for his books. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 24 15:16:51 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:16:51 -0500 Subject: "tall, dark, and hansome" whence? In-Reply-To: <000001c3f161$4f76bfd0$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >From the Straightdope, as usual. > > I can find a hit on newspaperarchive for 1941, "dark and hansome." > > But when does the full treatment (tall, dark and hansome) start? And what > is meant by "dark?" You've been tripped up by misspelling (is one allowed to use the word "misspelling" on a linguists' list?) the word "handsome." "Tall, dark and handsome" goes back to 1882 on newspaperarchive. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:20:33 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:20:33 EST Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: I appreciate Arnold Zwicky's discussion (copied below), which raises an important topic that is rarely discussed. But I'm wondering if he is merely reporting on unwritten rules as he has internalized them, or if he is referring to rules that have been codified in written form by some authoritative source. In any case, I am grateful to Arnold for raising a question that is both of practical value to academic professionals (such issues have real relevance in promotion-and-tenure decisions)--and which is interesting linguistically in its own right as a question of pragmatics and discourse analysis. I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume that a multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first author and that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a little PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that requires "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works with "et al." The truth is that it is generally impossible to know what the order means. Even if there are some academic standards that are explicitly agreed on (and these would have to be in writing somewhere), a number of different factors (including the possibility that the authors decided to use an alphabetical listing) may be at work, as Arnold points out, and the criteria are almost never made explicit in the texts themselves to resolve the ambiguity. (The only common exception to this that I can think of is if the second author is designated as "with", which in fact usually means that the second author did the real writing of a work that is a biography and the first author, a celebrity furnished the information.) Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author (or the one with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. Complicating the issue further is the fact that it just is not true that the first-is-most-important rule does not operate among scholars. I know at least one linguist of no little note who publically stated under oath that at least one scholarly work that he published with other scholars was author-listed out of alphabetical order so as to give prominence to the name of the one author who was a graduate student, in order to give a little boost to his career. And, as Arnold notes himself, some of the own bi-authored works in which his name appears first (i.e., out of alphabetical order) have been interpreted by a number of people--not just the "vulgar" and "uncorrected"--as meaning that his contribution is the greater one. Also, I know of scholars who frequently write papers together who rotate the order of the listed names in attempt to counteract the impression that the work of either one is more important than that of the other. As we all know, the question of the relative pragamatic importance of items in a series has been fairly extensively studied by psycholinguists. The results are complicated, but in general the first and last places (as one might expect) are the most memorable. It seems to me pretty clear that the problem arises in this case because people are inclined to folliow the pragmatic rule that tells them that the first has to be the most important unless they are told otherwise. (I have actually heard people in tenure cases say things like, "Well, how many of the articles did she write as FIRST author? She is just the second author on most of them." If her name is "Butters" rather than "Zwicky" this can be especially damning, as Arnold suggests below). I wonder if it might not be a good idea for the American Dialect Society and the Linguistic Society of America to take an official stand on this matter--unless a stand has already been taken we don't know about. Ron Butters (whose last name comes way way at the other end of the alphabet from Zwicky, but who has suffered with Arnold nonetheless). In a message dated 1/28/04 8:58:04 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << i was astonished to see CHOICE referring to a co-authored book as the work of the first listed author. undergraduate students do this a lot, and i always correct them. (at least some of them genuinely believe that books and articles *really* have just one author, who's listed first; the others are just people who helped in some way. this belief undoubtedly arises from their own experience in research and writing, which almost never includes true collaboration.) maybe i'm oversensitive, since the very common scheme of listing authors in alphabetical order almost always puts me last, but attributing a joint work to its first-listed author is a vulgar error. it *might* be that the CHOICE reviewer reasoned that since the authors of this book were listed out of alphabetical order, with feinman before clapp and mckean, feinman must have been the principal author. it is true that authors are sometimes listed in order of descending contribution -- this is the case for Elizabeth Zwicky, Simon Cooper, and Brent Chapman, Building Internet Firewalls -- but there are many other reasons for non-alphabetical orderings (the lab director or principal investigator on a grant is often listed first, even if this person contributed little to the project), and even in descending-contribution orderings the difference between the contributions can be pretty slight. (i've come to regret the ordering Zwicky-Pullum that appears on some of our joint works, since it suggests that my part was *much* more important than geoff's. if you stick to alphabetical ordering, no such ranking is implicated.) surely reviewers for CHOICE should understand that you can't conclude much from the ordering of names, and even if a reviewer is ignorant, copy editors should have caught the error and fixed it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), at the end even in the American Speech article by Zwicky & Zwicky -- Ann D. Zwicky & Arnold M. Zwicky >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:27:17 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:27:17 EST Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 12:41:06 AM, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: << Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS "gay boy" from 1904. So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. But the interesting part was the actual quote: 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am I just misreading this cite? SC >> GAY didn't come to mean 'homosexual' until the 1930s (late 1920s at the very earliest), and then it was an insider term known only to other homosexuals. It didn't move out into the general population until the 1940s and 1950s, and even then it wasn't very powerful. The general population didn't use the term as the primary meaning until the late 1960s. The 1904 cite surely has nothing to do with homosexuality. From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Tue Feb 24 16:30:01 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:30:01 -0500 Subject: Query for TV: Early Mass. Accents? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Please respond to the original sender. .............. Hello there I'm wondering if you can help me? I'm writing from a leading TV production company in the UK and am seeking advice about early American accents. We're producing a documentary for The History Channel about American prisoners of war in New York during the Revolutionary War and we're using memoirs and diary accounts of the captives to stage some dramatic reconstructions. Our two main American protagonists were both born and raised in Massachusetts, and I'm trying to find out what kind of accent they would have spoken with c. 1780. If there's any useful information that you could pass on to me I would be most grateful. With many thanks Kind regardss Jessica Roe (Producer) jessica.roe at principal.tv Principal Films Picture House 65 Hopton Street London SE1 9LR Tel: 020 7928 9287 Fax: 020 7928 9886 Mobile: 07949 232318 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Feb 24 16:38:46 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:38:46 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <403A67B7.17938.1DA2AF5@localhost> Message-ID: I checked Vito Russo's book The Celluloid Closet and found some confirmation that "gay" was used of homosexuals well before the 20s and 30s. Here, for example, is a statement I found on page 6: The idea of homosexuality first emerged onscreen . . . as an unseen danger, a reflection of our fears about the perils of tampering with male and females roles. Characters who were less than men or more than women had their first expression in the zany farce of mistaken identity and transvestite humor inherited from our oldest theatrical traditions . . . An experimental film directed by William Dickson at the Thomas Edison Studio in 1895 shows two men dancing a waltz. It was titled _The Gay Brothers_. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:32:24 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:32:24 -0600 Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: I don't think this 1904 item represents a homosexual lisp. Rather it looks like part of the speech patterns of the 1883ff. "dudes"--brainless, well-dressed (high collar, tight pants, pointed shoes, top hat, etc.) young men who seemed to be imitating Oscar Wilde and what they considered to be British cultured gentlemen. Cartoonists and other humorists of their time had a field-day with them. Gerald Cohen At 12:02 AM -0500 2/24/04, Sam Clements wrote: >Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS >"gay boy" from 1904. > >So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for >"gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. > >But the interesting part was the actual quote: > >1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look >a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. > >Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am >I just misreading this cite? > >SC From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:43:36 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:43:36 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? Message-ID: The 1903 cite is questionable to say the least. That is why HDAS puts it in square brackets. GAY meant 'prostitute' and 'promiscuous woman' in Victorian England. The VERY occasional references to "gay boy" undoubtedly are an extension of the 'prostitute' meaning. There is NO evidence that this meaning skipped over to mean 'homosexual' proper (for one thing, this was not really even a concept in Victorian England, let alone something that there would have been a word for). There is even less reason to believe that the Victorian meaning skipped across the ocean and reppeared in American hobo (sic) slang of the 1930s. American hobo slang GEYCAT may have affected the 1930s subculture meaning of GAY 'homosexual', but I doubt it. It first emerges among urban males of a class that would not have had too much contact with hobos. A more likely etymology is as an extension of the common 1920s meaning of GAY as 'somewhat decadent; given to party-going and attention to material things such as fashion and furniture. All of this has been discussed before, I believe, on ADS-L. I discuss it in detail in my DICTIONARIES article a few years back. In a message dated 2/23/04 11:37:00 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << But "gayboy" = "homosexual man" appears (HDAS) to date from 1903 ... and even without that early citation "gay boy" would be natural by analogy to (apparently very prevalent) 19th century "gay girl" meaning "prostitute" (still so used in South Asia). Given "gay boy" = "male prostitute" (the narrowest analogy), extension to "homosexual man" in mainstream use would be certain IMHO, and if "gay boy" = "homosexual man" then I think immediate "gay" = "homosexual" is a cinch. Just a plausibility argument. I suspect that "gaycat" assumed its homosexual implication (to the extent that it had any) from "gay" rather than the other way around: "gaycat" basically meant "amateur tramp" originally AFAIK (whence?), and only later "sidekick"/"possible catamite". >> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:45:42 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0500 2/24/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors >are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in >which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author >(or the one >with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. > Sometimes a jointly authored paper will include a footnote at the end of line giving the authors' names which reads "The names of the authors are listed in alphabetical order" or something along those lines. To which my disingenuous response is "Duh", but of course the implicature is "...and for no other reason." larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:57:09 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:57:09 -0800 Subject: lisps and homosexuals In-Reply-To: <196.26306c83.2d6cd565@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:27 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/04 12:41:06 AM, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > << Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and > cited HDAS > "gay boy" from 1904. > > So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above > it for > "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. > > But the interesting part was the actual quote: > > 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? > You look > a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. > > Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? > Or, am > I just misreading this cite? Ron replies: > GAY didn't come to mean 'homosexual' until the 1930s (late 1920s at > the very > earliest), and then it was an insider term known only to other > homosexuals. It > didn't move out into the general population until the 1940s and 1950s, > and > even then it wasn't very powerful. The general population didn't use > the term as > the primary meaning until the late 1960s. > > The 1904 cite surely has nothing to do with homosexuality. we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken speech or both. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:57:49 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:57:49 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's name is listed last. That struck me as odd when I first began studying molecular genetics. I assumed if there wasn't an arbitrary alphabetical listing, the first name was that of the major researcher or professor supervising the work. I guess I should never assume anything across disciplines. ?? Laurence Horn wrote: > At 11:20 AM -0500 2/24/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors > >are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in > >which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author > >(or the one > >with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. > > > Sometimes a jointly authored paper will include a footnote at the end > of line giving the authors' names which reads "The names of the > authors are listed in alphabetical order" or something along those > lines. To which my disingenuous response is "Duh", but of course the > implicature is "...and for no other reason." > > larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 17:00:22 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:22 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Russo is much given to anachronistic readings of GAY, and of course he had an agenda to do so. Since GAY meant 'happy, carefree, a little zany', that would be an appropriate word to use for two men dancing together in 1895. The same word could have been used for two women dancing together, or a man and a woman. At it means is that they are happy and carefree. What is totally impossible is that Edison meant that two men dancing together were GAY in the sense that they were men who preferred to wear the clothing of women (Russo's erroneous "transveste") or that they were men who were particularly inclined to have sex with other men. The idea of tow men having sex with other man was such an abomination in 1895 that for Edison even to SUGGEST it in the title of the movie would have been too shocking for the public to stand for. Indeed, the fact that Edison felt free to use the term GAY in this way is a very strong argument AGAINST any reading of GAY as referring to 'homosexual' in 1895. Russo also makes much of Cary Grant's use of the word GAY in the 1938 American Movie BRINGING UP BABY. I argue against this reading in my DICTIONARIES article; again, the fact that Cary Grant, a closest bisexual, used this term in self-reference in an ad-lib in a film is something of an argument AGAINST construing GAY to mean 'homosexual'. Moreover, given the context of utterance, Grant could at best have been associating GAY with transvestitism (which is NOT what Grant himself would have thought of as homosexuality), not homosexuality. More likely, Grant would have thought of GAY in connection with GAY FOLLIES, i.e., women in scanty garments appearing in public (a common use of GAY in the 1920s and 1930s). In a message dated 2/24/04 11:36:32 AM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << I checked Vito Russo's book The Celluloid Closet and found some confirmation that "gay" was used of homosexuals well before the 20s and 30s. Here, for example, is a statement I found on page 6: The idea of homosexuality first emerged onscreen . . . as an unseen danger, a reflection of our fears about the perils of tampering with male and females roles. Characters who were less than men or more than women had their first expression in the zany farce of mistaken identity and transvestite humor inherited from our oldest theatrical traditions . . . An experimental film directed by William Dickson at the Thomas Edison Studio in 1895 shows two men dancing a waltz. It was titled _The Gay Brothers_. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 17:03:48 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:03:48 EST Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 11:58:28 AM, lesa.dill at WKU.EDU writes: << In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's name is listed last. >> Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? (Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important to know what the source is for such judgments.) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Tue Feb 24 17:18:00 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:18:00 -0000 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In re gay-/gey-cat: There are various defs. 1. late 19C–1950s a young or inexperienced tramp. 2. late 19C–1950s a hobo who accepts occasional or seasonal work. 3. 1900s-40s (US Und.) the junior member of a criminal gang, employed to run errands or spy out possible crimes 4. 1930s a tramp’s younger, homosexual companion. The locus classic us is perhaps: 1921 P. & T. Casey _The Gay-cat_ 17: A gay-cat is the scorn of hoboes. He is a fake hobo. He lacks altogether the qualities of a blown-in-the-glass stiff. He will ‘peach’ on his mates. He will turn against a friend when that friend is down to tomato cans. Anything and everything mean and despicable is worthy of a gay-cat. To call a man that is to brand him with the most loathed name a hobo knows. It is the quintessence of contempt. [The 'gay-cat' narrator of the Caseys' book is not, ostensibly homosexual; that said, his relations are uniquely with older hobo males; could there have been a degree of self-censorship on behalf of the author? Certainly the contempt in which the 'gay-cat' is held might be seen as extending further than one who is merely a less experienced tramp.] The point about gay, surely, is that it is euphemistic. I don't know whether this interwar term crossed the Atlantic, but in the UK there was also 'so' ('Is he "so"?'); the US had the parallel 'that way'. Thus 'gay' passed from Chaucer's (and latterly Shakespeare's) use, meaning generally dissipated, thence to promiscuous/immoral, of a woman, and thence, since one was attempting to describe what were seen, stereotypically, as both promiscuous and effeminate males, homosexuals. If the term was adopted by gay men, then it simply prefigures the similar positive appropriation of verbal opprobria, such as 'nigger' and 'queer' by the respective black and homosexual communities. I would also note Bruce Rodgers' cite of 16C French _gaie_, a homosexual man, although I have yet to confirm this. As for gay-/gey cat def. 4, my feeling is that it has been influenced by the homosexual ue of gay, but that it's 'young or inxperienced' definition came first. But, as noted, one can never under-estimate the mis-direction of self-censorship. Jonathon Green From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 24 17:00:57 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:57 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, I'm finally enjoying using it--late, as usual. "Word up" is gone too, isn't it? At 07:32 AM 2/24/2004 -0500, you wrote: >ditto MSU; long gone > >dInIs (aka an elderly professor) > >>On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: >> >>>I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >>>meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word >> >>No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly >>professors. >> >>Bethany >>U of TN From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 18:00:58 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:00:58 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals In-Reply-To: <7BFD5C4E-66EA-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, i wrote: > we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that > what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken > speech or both. or, even more likely, now that i think about it, irish (drunk or sober). wasn't a lithp a conventional indication of working-class irish english, in print at this period (late 19th century, early 20th century)? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:01:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:01:48 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: geoff pullum reminds me that "Linguistic Inquiry adopted around 1980 a policy of refusing to accept names in non-alphabetical order". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:21:59 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:21:59 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <1d2.1a883d62.2d6cddf4@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 2/24/04 11:58:28 AM, lesa.dill at WKU.EDU writes: > ><< In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's >name is >listed last. >> > >Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? >(Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important >to know what >the source is for such judgments.) This is certainly the policy in the sciences according to my sister. She is a pediatric cardiologist and as part of her board certification needed to be LISTED as first author on one (or more) publication(s). The last name of the many authors listed was the senior member writing the article. I have co-authored several papers with Eric Schiller, and I know we traded off on who was listed first--and at least once he said, you need the publishing credit more that I do. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:23:06 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:23:06 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume > that a > multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first > author and > that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a > little > PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that > requires > "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works > with "et > al." i have no problem with "N et al." (taking a plural verb form when it's a subject). i objected to references to the first author's name only (taking a singular verb form when it's a subject). this is simply wrong. there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who objects when addressed as "Alfred" or "Dr. Zwinky", as has happened during the past week From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:41:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:41:50 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I appreciate Arnold Zwicky's discussion (copied below), which raises an > important topic that is rarely discussed. But I'm wondering if he is > merely > reporting on unwritten rules as he has internalized them, or if he is > referring to > rules that have been codified in written form by some authoritative > source. i was reporting on divergent practices, which together make it impossible to conclude, in linguistics and some other contexts, what the meaning of first-mention is. and the practices that i'm reporting on are from my own experience. it now turns out, from reports here, that there are contexts in which the ordering has been at least partially codified (principal investigator last; alphabetical order). but if you look at the author ordering in linguistics books, it's clear that more than one thing is going on. in the most recent issue of Language (79.4, december 2003), most of the multi-authored books have their authors in alphabetical order, but seven do not, and we don't know quite what to make of this: Wischer & Diewald Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz Hellinger & Bussmann Satterfield, Tortora, & Cresti Selting & Couper-Kuhlen Voeltz & Kilian-Hatz Weigand & Dascal (the editors of Language are, of course, not free to rearrange the authors' names, but must take them as they appear on the books themselves.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:49:15 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:49:15 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: Well, standard capitalization according to which discipline? Science does some wierd things there too. A lot of scientific styles require only the first word of the title and proper nouns to be capitalized. That can really look strange, I'd agree, especially when the style omits the quotation marks or underlining. In that case, no matter how much I know that punctuation is right, the sentence looks substandard to me. I agree that a lot of times prescriptions are appropriate and absolutely necessary. What's crazy is when the prescriptions disagree! Makes one have to have a split personality of sorts. "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume > > that a > > multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first > > author and > > that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a > > little > > PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that > > requires > > "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works > > with "et > > al." > > i have no problem with "N et al." (taking a plural verb form when it's > a subject). i objected to references to the first author's name only > (taking a singular verb form when it's a subject). this is simply > wrong. > > there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely > appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics > Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic > Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling > (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who objects when addressed as > "Alfred" or "Dr. Zwinky", as has happened during the past week From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Feb 24 20:02:37 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:02:37 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <7DB3D0DE-6701-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz< Is this an exception to the alpha rule? Maybe the H of Harlig operates here. A. Murie From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Feb 24 20:14:51 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:14:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <136.2ad3c6cf.2d6cdd26@aol.com> Message-ID: Okay, Ron, I'm sorry I neglected to re-read your article before venturing to comment on this issue. (Obviously, my memory failed me miserably when I took Russo's interpretation at face value!) The original query had to do with "insider" self-referential vocabulary, though, and, given the evidence, I'd be inclined to think that we can't totally rule out the possibility that homosexual men of the 1920s and 30s attached a special self-referential significance, be it in the form of double-entendre or straightforward denotation, when they used the word "gay" of each other (or of themselves). Though it almost certainly meant no such thing to the population at large, as you argue, I imagine that there must have been a sort of slow semantic creep towards that meaning in the minds of gays themselves, just as today "androgynous" can have a dual meaning when used by one gay woman of another (though whether it actually carries that meaning in a particular case would depend on the context). So I guess I'd be a bit more willing than you to entertain the possibility that, to some people, "gay" might have carried a "homosexual" double-entendre, perhaps even in nonce fashion, in the context of its application to two cross-dressed men dancing together, even as early as 1895. But -- not to worry! -- I would never base a Collegiate date on such evidence. If I had the option to bracket the usage, though, I might. I'd really love to follow the lead in Cory's book and look at some 1920s-era gay underground literature. The NYPL has a very good GLB archive, from what I understand. Now to pitch this idea to my boss... Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Tue Feb 24 20:05:15 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:05:15 -0800 Subject: word" Message-ID: Dear Linguists: Thank you for your quick help on "word." Jerome Foster From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:29:59 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:29:59 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I happen to know these people, and I suspect Sue Gass was the instigator of the volume and therefore listed herself first (privilege of seniority in the field of SLA, not necessarily age). Note that the other three are alphabetical (Kathleen Bardovi-Harlig always is listed as B). Again, the rules for the book are set by the authors themselves, and the journal has to abide by that. At 03:02 PM 2/24/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz< >Is this an exception to the alpha rule? Maybe the H of Harlig operates here. >A. Murie From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:38:13 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:38:13 -0800 Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about eurhythmics as exercise? The AHD4 has: The art of interpreting musical compositions by rhythmical, free-style bodily movement. I see eurhythmics listed along with tai chi and other exercises on Google, though. The dictionary entry I'm working on suggests it as the translation from the Japanese ritsudou taisou. A link at http://hametsul.hp.infoseek.co.jp/zanpan/ shows children doing exercise to music, which just seems like a glorified form of what you see on children's TV programs. Any suggestions appreciated. Benjamin Barrett From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:50:18 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:50:18 -0500 Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise In-Reply-To: <200402242238.i1OMcrbO027833@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps look into Rudolf Steiner Eurhythmy and Jaques-Dalcruze Eurhythmics 1912. S. Goranson From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 22:54:31 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:54:31 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 3:13:55 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << I'd really love to follow the lead in Cory's book and look at some 1920s-era gay underground literature. The NYPL has a very good GLB archive, from what I understand. Now to pitch this idea to my boss... >> I've done some of this, and the evidence for your theory is pretty slim. For one thing, GAY is used all over the place in such literature--even up into the 1950s and 1960s--with its standard meanings. There are a few environments in which the characters MIGHT be interpreted as using GAY 'homosexual', just like the cross-dressing dancers in 1895 (one such appears in HDAS), but they just as likely might be using GAY in the conventional sense. NONE of the underground literature that I have seen makes any clear reference to GAY as an insider term--though they do discuss lots of other insider terms. Not until 1940 do we find anyone noting that the term is a secret word for 'that way'. The impulse is really really POWERFUL to read our own meaning into the use of a word like GAY in an earlier time. But if GAY in 1895 was a secret term meaning 'homosexual' (and, again, the concept pretty much didn't even exist in 1895) what would the point have been in making such a veiled allusion? Who would the author of such a title have been appealing to? Other "homosexuals"? To what end? Who, in 1895, would have been so daring as to have made such an appeal? Why do we have to see GAY as meaning 'homosexual' in the 1895 film when there are other meanings that are perfectly adequate to explain the title from a Victorian point of view (and when it is virtually impossible to imagine a Victorian using the term in its modern sense). From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 23:42:30 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:42:30 EST Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/2004 6:01:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: The dictionary entry I'm working on suggests it as the translation from the Japanese ritsudou taisou. A link at http://hametsul.hp.infoseek.co.jp/zanpan/ shows children doing exercise to music, which just seems like a glorified form of what you see on children's TV programs. Eurythmy was created by Rudolf Steiner, the Austrian/German philosopher/man of ideas --the founder of anthroposophy--and is still very much an active part of all Steiner (Waldorf) Schools around the world--including here at Princeton where my wife teaches. There are two types--one is somewhat balletic, and the other (tone-eurythmy) was conceived as a way to express speech through movement. Here is an excerpt from Stewart C. Easton "Man and World in the Light of Anthroposophy" Lory Smits was an 18 year old girl who had suddenly lost her father. Lory and her mother were very poor and the mother didn't want her to become a professional dancer, so she asked Steiner for advice. He gave Lory a number of exercises to perform, "connected with the movement or arms and feet in relation to spoken sounds. These exercises were followed for many months from the autumn of 1911 until Rudolf Steiner felt that she had progressed far enough to be given some private lessons in what was to become eurythmy. He therefore asked Lory and her mother to come to Basel, where he was giving a series of lectures on the Gospel of St. Mark (September 1912), and this first eurythmist, who soon undertook to teach others what she had just learned, spent the afternoons in a small room ..." it goes on to say the first performance in this new art was presented in Munich in August, 1913. Dale Coye The College of NJ From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:05:02 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:05:02 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <200402241703.AJF03362@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 11:03 AM 2/24/04, you wrote: >Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? >(Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important to know >what >the source is for such judgments.) I have discussed this with the Associate Provost for Academic Personnel at Wayne State (who reads all the university's tenure and promotion dossiers), and she tells me that there is great variation within the 'sciences'. For example, in some disciplines, including a number of medical ones, the last named author is the person who 'owns' the lab, but may have done no work at all on the actual research. But there is considerable variation on this, and in some cases second authorship counts, because you give your graduate student first authorship. You just have to know the individual culture, and in cross-disciplinary committees there has to be considerable work to done to explain just exactly this issue. Explaining single-authored humanities and linguistics papers to physicists takes work. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology Wayne State University Linguistics: (313) 577-8621 Department of English, C&IT: (313) 577-1259 Wayne State University, Detroit, MI, 48202 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Feb 25 00:13:44 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:13:44 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In law review articles, when there are two authors, the first of whom is a noted professor and the second is in a much more junior position, the assumption is that the noted professor did the thinking and the junior person did the work. If the first author is an important partner at a law firm and the second is a junior partner or associate, it's assumed that the junior partner or associate did both the thinking and the work, and the partner endorsed it. I would tell you what it means when the first author is the student assistant or associate and the second is the noted professor or senior partner, but I've never seen that. John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 00:38:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:38:44 EST Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking tickets. "Make like a tree," the guard told me. "Make like a tree?" "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" That damn hotel "body bar"! I knew that I shouldn't have come back from Panama smelling like a eucalpytus!!! The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has this under "make like a--" and gives "1950a+." The HDAS has 1958 for "make like bubblegum and blow," then 1968 for "make like a tree and leave." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 3/18/1954 ...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles kids who.....t be there) And "I dig it the leAst" (don't LIKE I it At All) A nd think I'll pick up jon.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 674 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/23/1957 ...reAching for is "cuttings." "ShAll we MAKE LIKE A TREE And "Where did you leArn All "I.....And the ImAginAtion, An excellent book for those who Are not mAthemAticAlly.....Kohler. TAken together, these exAmples look LIKE A right-turn trend Among liberAl.....you do not dig me, DAddy0, A jelly tot is LIKE .A Jim DAndy. Only -younger. A Jim DAndy.. Reno, Nevada Monday, September 23, 1957 573 k Appeal Democrat - 12/17/1958 ...MAKE the effort." "NeAt, beAt. So I'll MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." And he did. We could.....As in the United StAtes. The AverAge-sized book would retA il At hArdly less thAn the.....Those who leAd us into this chAnnel will be LIKE the sorcerer who knew the Art of mAking.....IIM8 For A Fire-Free ChristmAs IK ChristmAs TREE, lit All Usitrcu fires eAch over And.. Marysville, California Wednesday, December 17, 1958 728 k Newport Daily News - 4/15/1954 ...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles kids who.....pAinted trim in the children's room, book cAses. Scouring powder: HArd to beAt for.....pAin is mAking him fussy. He will probAbly LIKE to hAve you rub his gums. He rubs them.....Anything he cAn get hold of, but he'd LIKE to hAve you do some rubbing too. CleAn.. Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, April 15, 1954 512 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/18/1954 ...bAses Aroucd RussiA. He mAde the or "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los A ngeles kids who.....officiAls Are showing disLIKE for A phrAse LIKE "new look" Sisenhower himselfj 1.....world Bikini-ism ThAt meAns swimsuits LIKE. those worn Above by Bonnie Y eAger.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 839 k Mountain Democrat - 3/4/1987 ...by DAve Cole HEY YOU, why dontchA MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve HA, hA. I got A million.....test wAs tAken, the CHP sAid. Church's new TREE to be plAnted soon COLOMA The EmmAnuel.....Church in ColomA is About to get A new TREE to replAce the venerAble old cedAr thAt.....contrActed to plAnt A young Incense CedA r TREE in the sAme spot inhAbited by the former.. Placerville, California Wednesday, March 04, 1987 500 k From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:21:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:21:17 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <403BAABB.AC05C607@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Lesa Dill wrote: > Well, standard capitalization according to which discipline?... > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ... and i'm going to insist on standard spelling >> (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. that was a wry reference to my (very nonstandard) use of all-lower-case in rapid informal posting on the net. arnold From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 01:44:58 2004 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:44:58 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I hope that many of you will attend the Modern Language Association convention in Philadelphia this year, and that some of you will present your current research in sessions sponsored by the American Dialect Society at the MLA convention. If you would like to be on the MLA program, please send an abstract to MAdams1448 at aol.com by 20 March 2004. Since time immemorial, the MLA has been host to many important sessions on American speech. Recently, several papers presented at the convention have appeared in the "Journal of English Linguistics," "American Speech," and elsewhere. In an age of criticism and theory, it's up to the American Dialect Society to put the "language" back into "Modern Language Association." If you plan to attend the convention, or if you would attend were you to present a paper, please submit an abstract. One important note: you must be an MLA member to present a paper at the MLA convention, and your membership must be registered by 1 April 2004 for this year's convention. Year by year, fewer ADS members attend the MLA convention. It has become increasingly difficult to fill the ADS sessions at MLA, as a result. If you are planning to attend, PLEASE submit an abstract so that American speech continues to be an aspect of the MLA program. Our sessions are always well-attended; MLA members are clearly interested in what ADS members have to say about American speech, but they won't hear anything if we can't fill the sessions with interesting papers. Recently, I've been elected to the MLA Delegate Assembly, the MLA's governing body. My sole interest in taking this responsibility is to promote study of American English, but my job will be much harder if there's no ADS presence at MLA. So, once again, please, PLEASE submit an abstract if it's at all consonant with your scholarly plans. With all best wishes (and high hopes), Michael From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 01:55:44 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:55:44 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 2:23:41 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. >> Exactly -- and these are all examples where one can cite authority rather than just issue edicts based on one's own preferences. My prescriptions = your carelessness = his mistaken notions? From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 02:21:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:21:14 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <403B828D.CC318734@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, Lesa Dill wrote: > In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary > investigator's name is > listed last. That struck me as odd when I first began studying > molecular > genetics. I assumed if there wasn't an arbitrary alphabetical > listing, the first > name was that of the major researcher or professor supervising the > work. I guess > I should never assume anything across disciplines. ?? a quick look at the most recent issue of Science makes me dubious about this. the editorial is by Kennedy, Austin, Urquhart, & Taylor (of whom kennedy, the editor of the journal, is certainly the principal person involved). there's a NewsFocus (reportorial) piece by Triunfol & Mervis (which i take to be major-contributor-first). the Research Articles begin with something in physics by Lyne, Burgay, Kramer, Possenti, Manchester, Camilo, McLaughlin, Lorimer, D'Amico, Joshi, Reynolds, & Freire (i have no idea what's going on here.) it goes on like this, article after article. there 's one two-authored piece, by Terman & Kolodkin; terman and kolodkin each credit two grants (neither of them joint); terman is cited in one reference, kolodkin in two; and correspondence is directed to kolodkin. (they're both at john hopkins.) but then it turns out that Medline shows 14 articles by terman, going back to 1999, but 35 articles by kolodkin, going back all the way to 1983, so kolodkin is presumably the senior of the two. i can't find anything in the various guidelines for authors that speaks to the order of contributors. they do tell you to omit academic titles, but say nothing about the ordering of names. so i now suspect that any conventions about ordering are informal and unspoken, and there might well be several (incompatible) ones. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Feb 25 02:39:24 2004 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:39:24 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <200402250013.TAB26589@impregnable.cnchost.com> Message-ID: Anthropology and archaeology usually vary between who-did-more-work order, and Big-Thoughts-first order. Straight alpha is usually used only when the egos get so big that there's no other way to resolve the issue. The equivalent of "owner of the lab" doesn't exist. I have suspected that a collaborating couple with numerous coauthored papers flip coins for senior authorship. On larger reports or monographs, editor/s are commonly listed who wrote little, if any, of the report but who reviewed it for content and who assume responsibility if it's incorrect. The actual authors will be listed as specific contributors (and can be cited on a chapter-specific basis), but the cited "authors" of the entire work are the editor/s. The references are supposed to include (editors) after their names. All that is subject to change if politics enters into it. Then there's the case of the well-known, powerful professor in California anthropology who was known for inserting himself as senior author when his grad student/s did all the work and thinking. We pass on by word of mouth who really did all the work, but we still have to cite the works as "Professor and Student." I'm sure there are similar cases in other regions. Gwyn Alcock Redlands From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 02:40:13 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:40:13 -0800 Subject: authority for prescriptions In-Reply-To: <1ea.19c6171e.2d6d5aa0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 5:55 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/04 2:23:41 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > > << there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely > appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics > Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic > Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling > (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. >> > > Exactly -- and these are all examples where one can cite authority > rather > than just issue edicts based on one's own preferences. My > prescriptions = your > carelessness = his mistaken notions? one more time, and then i give up. what i said, at the very beginning of my 1/28/04 posting was: "i was astonished to see CHOICE referring to a co-authored book as the work of the first listed author." the problem is not my preference. it's a matter of truth. if you say "In 'The syntax-phonology interface' (in Newmeyer 1988), Pullum says..." this is at best misleading, quite possibly false. the article was by Pullum & Zwicky, and most of its *sentences* have some words from pullum and some from zwicky. so maybe pullum said that, maybe zwicky did, maybe it was an indissolubly joint assertion. but it's wrong to attribute it to pullum alone. there are two issues here: how to refer to jointly written works (here i think there are some rights and wrongs) and how to order authors' names in jointly written works (here i *made no prescriptions*; i did express a preference, recently come to, but i certainly did not insist on alphabetical order, nor did i ever say that other orderings were wrong). i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 25 04:55:54 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:55:54 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo: corrigendum In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040220214449.02f04ab0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is apparently no >"skidoo 23" .... Embarrassed by the capricious search engine again! "Skidoo 23" -- which did not appear in my careful initial search -- now turns up in a few cases as early as 1906 at N'archive. Back to the drawing board. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 25 13:30:37 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:30:37 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo: corrigendum In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040224234958.02eff300@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I find that I sometimes get different results at newspaperarchive.com depending whether I use www.newspaperarchive.com or beta.newspaperarchive.com. It might be worthwhile to try both. Grant On Feb 24, 2004, at 23:55, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is >> apparently no >> "skidoo 23" .... > > Embarrassed by the capricious search engine again! "Skidoo 23" -- > which did > not appear in my careful initial search -- now turns up in a few cases > as > early as 1906 at N'archive. Back to the drawing board. > > -- Doug Wilson > From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 25 14:38:55 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:38:55 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <30.50eae58e.2d6d3027@aol.com> Message-ID: If you've read the underground literature, then you're obviously in a much better position to judge than I am, Ron. And I do understand your objection to interpreting the title of that 1895 film, or of Cary Grant's line for that matter, as a full-blown use of the current meaning of "gay." I just wonder, particularly if the term "gay" appears so often in the underground literature, whether its contemporary use might have evolved from its use in contexts like the 1895 film, perhaps from the association of "gay" (meaning something like "outrageously giddy") behavior with homosexuals. But I suppose that's an argument from theoretical plausibility more than from linguistic fact. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 25 15:39:35 2004 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:39:35 -0500 Subject: Dubious Daily Candy Lexicon Message-ID: Another silly installment of the Daily Candy Lexicon from the popular fashionista e-list Daily Candy (http://www.dailycandy.com/). Two of these terms ("blamestorming" and "mouse potato") were lifted right from my Jargon Watch column/book, circa 1997(!), definitions and all. "Helicopter girl/boyfriend" is obviously just a play on "helicopter mom," which has been making the rounds and was just used on "Joan of Arcadia" a few weeks ago. Gareth *** Lexicon VII 02/25/2004 You've finally fixed that nasty little yellular problem and even cut down on the e-mauling. But have you taken a look at what's actually coming out of your mouth? Sounds like it's time for another DailyCandy linguistic tune-up. helicopter girl/boyfriend (n.) A significant other who finds it necessary to hover around his or her mate at all times. ("I'd love to come to girls' night, but my helicopter probably won't let me out of his sight.") blamestorming (n.) A meeting whose sole purpose is to discuss why a deadline was missed or a project failed and who was responsible. teenile (adj.) Used to describe someone who is way too old for what he or she is wearing; see also "senile." ("That 45-year-old woman in those low-cut jeans? Is she crazy or just teenile?") mouse potato (n.) The wired generation's answer to the couch potato. karat dangler (n.) A woman who finds it of utmost importance to flaunt her engagement/wedding ring at all times. ("Who does that karat dangler think she's impressing? Like I've never seen a rock before.") resigoo: (n.) The residual stuff stuck to you after a bikini wax. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Feb 25 18:40:44 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:40:44 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro posted here on July 5, '03, "queer" as a noun, used in a homosexual group in Long Beach, Calif., in 1914. Fred's source was an article in Journal of the History of Sexuality from 1995, and the ultimate source was "unpublished manuscripts relating to Long Beach, California". On Sept. 9, '03, I posted passages from the LATimes of 1914 using "queer" as an adjective, used by a homosexual man -- though my eye had been caught by other words in the passage and it took Fred to point out the antedating of "queer". The LATimes story was reporting on a scandal in Long Beach, evidently the same one as was described in the Journal. So this gives us "queer", noun & adj, used as a gay self-appellation as early as the mid 1910s, in southern California, at least. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 19:04:48 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:04:48 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 9:40:39 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. >> I can't imagine anyone in her right mind thinking bad thoughts about Arnold Zwicky, who surely is one of the nicest persons--and very best minds--in linguistics in my generation. I apologize for any invidious implications, which were unintentional. CHOICE is a journal that, as I recall, uses very small type and contains multitudinous entries. However, they could save more space by following the practice found in LANGUAGE: simply using the authors' initials. Thus "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968)" would be just "SW&R." If CHOICE's general practice is to refer to joint-authored books by the name of the first author alone, then I would agree that the practice is in violation of what most (all?) style manuals say. Or maybe they just made a mistake? One related practice that can confuse things even more: authors sometimes use the singular in references because they are thinking of the work and not the authors, e.g., "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968) says, ..." As an editor, I normally "correct" this to "say," if only because such authors never use the singular when the very is "write." From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 19:37:06 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:37:06 EST Subject: Earlier Underground Gay Literature Message-ID: I certainly haven't read ALL the underground gay literature of the 1920s and 1930s that was out there, and it is not at all impossible that something will come up that will prove me wrong. I don't think, though, that, given what I've, seen the term GAY occurs with any greater frequency in the underground literature than in the above-ground literature. My point is that GAY in those novels is simnply used in its usual senses. What does NOT make sense to me is the idea that the occasional parallelistic references in Victorian England to GAY BOYS = male prostitutes would then have resurfaced in the 1920s tramp slang as GEYCAT (where homosexuality was not even a part of its ordinary meaning) and that from there it leapt to1930s Gay Urban Males, who embraced it as a code word that they used to identify each other (less for self-labelling, where the word QUEER was most often used). No part of that fanciful etymology makes sociolinguistic sense. J Green said in an earlier post that the early uses were "euphemistic," but this seems to me to be not quite right label for a code word. Ironic, yes, and sardonic. But euphemism to me indicates the polite substitution of one word for another, and these early-day queers were not being polite, they were being sublte. Even when they began using GAY openly to refer to themselves they were not substituting a nice term for a pejorative one. Socially, whatever a gay person used for self-labelling was negative. (Well, maybe "that way" was a euphemism.) Many gay men, even in the 1950s, preferred QUEER to GAY. GAY as a slang term had a wide range of meanings in the 1920s and 1930s, as movies from that period (and short stories) attest. It meant "pugnacious." It meant "decadent" (especially when applied to young men of means). It "frivolous." It meant "colorful." It meant "joyous." It meant "wild." It seems quite logical that 1920s queer men would have adopted such a term as a code word that then developed in the 1940s into an underground term for self-reference. More logical, at any rate, than the connection with Victorian callboys and the occasional application to a hobo's occasional (and doubtless often unwilling) buttboy. In a message dated 2/25/04 9:37:07 AM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << If you've read the underground literature, then you're obviously in a much better position to judge than I am, Ron. And I do understand your objection to interpreting the title of that 1895 film, or of Cary Grant's line for that matter, as a full-blown use of the current meaning of "gay." I just wonder, particularly if the term "gay" appears so often in the underground literature, whether its contemporary use might have evolved from its use in contexts like the 1895 film, perhaps from the association of "gay" (meaning something like "outrageously giddy") behavior with homosexuals. But I suppose that's an argument from theoretical plausibility more than from linguistic fact. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com >> From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 25 21:59:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:12 -0500 Subject: authority for prescriptions In-Reply-To: <6.232b7520.2d6e4bd0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 02:04 PM 2/25/2004 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/24/04 9:40:39 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > ><< i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a >blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. >> > >I can't imagine anyone in her right mind thinking bad thoughts about Arnold >Zwicky, who surely is one of the nicest persons--and very best minds--in >linguistics in my generation. I apologize for any invidious implications, >which were >unintentional. > >CHOICE is a journal that, as I recall, uses very small type and contains >multitudinous entries. However, they could save more space by following the >practice found in LANGUAGE: simply using the authors' initials. Thus >"Shuy, Wolfram, >and Riley (1968)" would be just "SW&R." If CHOICE's general practice is to >refer to joint-authored books by the name of the first author alone, then I >would agree that the practice is in violation of what most (all?) style >manuals >say. Or maybe they just made a mistake? > >One related practice that can confuse things even more: authors sometimes use >the singular in references because they are thinking of the work and not the >authors, e.g., "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968) says, ..." As an editor, I >normally "correct" this to "say," if only because such authors never use the >singular when the very is "write." I do agree that this is a problem we constantly have to work with students (even grad students) on. They cite the first author, and sometimes any randomly picked author from a multiple set, as if that's enough. They also often use the singular verb, and they regularly cite only one part of a hyphenated name (even supposedly savvy American students do this!). I'm a prescriptivist on these rules too, simply because it's disrespectful of multiple authors, their collaborative contributions, and their right to make their own name order decisions. Of course, students don't know any better unless someone tells them; but this should have been done long before they get to us. And if journals and reviewers violate the rules, shame on them. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 25 23:51:26 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:51:26 -0500 Subject: Earlier Underground Gay Literature In-Reply-To: <145.22ed514d.2d6e5362@aol.com> Message-ID: >What does NOT make sense to me is the idea that the occasional parallelistic >references in Victorian England to GAY BOYS = male prostitutes would then have >resurfaced in the 1920s tramp slang as GEYCAT (where homosexuality was not >even a part of its ordinary meaning) and that from there it leapt to1930s Gay >Urban Males .... It doesn't seem likely to me either. "Gay girl" and similar expressions where "gay" = "engaged in prostitution" apparently were used in the US as well as in Britain in the 19th century (several US citations in HDAS, right?) ... then I would suppose that "gay boy" would be a plausible extension (anywhere), meaning "male prostitute" (or "gigolo", or "pimp") (whether it actually had wide currency in any sense, I don't know). So if somebody were to assert (I do not assert it myself) that male homosexuals were called "gay" in -- say -- 1915 or 1920, I would not find it unbelievable or inexplicable (one would still want documentation of course). As for "gaycat", I have no idea of its origin, but the first citation in HDAS where it means "homosexual" is dated 1933, I believe, and I believe it is plausible that the "homosexual" meaning was grafted onto the previous "sidekick" sense on the basis of "gay" having some sexual meaning -- possibly like the modern "gay" = "homosexual", possibly a little more general/ambiguous -- before 1933. AFAIK, "prushun" (various spellings) was the word typically used specifically for a tramp's catamite (or boy-companion-and-likely-catamite). I have no very good idea of the etymology of this word either. I have seen several speculations which did not strike my fancy. -- Doug Wilson From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Feb 26 01:41:12 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:41:12 -0800 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: And then there was: make like an alligator and drag ass: To leave in a hurry "Hot Rod Terms in the Pasadena Area" Don Mansell and Joseph S. Hall American Speech, May 1954 p 100 Tom Dalzell Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking >tickets. > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > "Make like a tree?" > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" > That damn hotel "body bar"! I knew that I shouldn't have come back from >Panama smelling like a eucalpytus!!! > The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has this under "make like a--" and gives >"1950a+." The HDAS has 1958 for "make like bubblegum and blow," then 1968 for >"make like a tree and leave." > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Gettysburg Times - 3/18/1954 >...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles >kids who.....t be there) And "I dig it the leAst" (don't LIKE I it At All) A >nd think I'll pick up jon.. >Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 674 k > >Reno Evening Gazette - 9/23/1957 >...reAching for is "cuttings." "ShAll we MAKE LIKE A TREE And "Where did you >leArn All "I.....And the ImAginAtion, An excellent book for those who Are not >mAthemAticAlly.....Kohler. TAken together, these exAmples look LIKE A >right-turn trend Among liberAl.....you do not dig me, DAddy0, A jelly tot is LIKE .A >Jim DAndy. Only -younger. A Jim DAndy.. >Reno, Nevada Monday, September 23, 1957 573 k > >Appeal Democrat - 12/17/1958 >...MAKE the effort." "NeAt, beAt. So I'll MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." And he >did. We could.....As in the United StAtes. The AverAge-sized book would retA >il At hArdly less thAn the.....Those who leAd us into this chAnnel will be LIKE >the sorcerer who knew the Art of mAking.....IIM8 For A Fire-Free ChristmAs IK >ChristmAs TREE, lit All Usitrcu fires eAch over And.. >Marysville, California Wednesday, December 17, 1958 728 k > >Newport Daily News - 4/15/1954 >...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles >kids who.....pAinted trim in the children's room, book cAses. Scouring >powder: HArd to beAt for.....pAin is mAking him fussy. He will probAbly LIKE to hAve >you rub his gums. He rubs them.....Anything he cAn get hold of, but he'd LIKE >to hAve you do some rubbing too. CleAn.. >Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, April 15, 1954 512 k > >Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/18/1954 >...bAses Aroucd RussiA. He mAde the or "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los A >ngeles kids who.....officiAls Are showing disLIKE for A phrAse LIKE "new look" >Sisenhower himselfj 1.....world Bikini-ism ThAt meAns swimsuits LIKE. those worn >Above by Bonnie Y eAger.. >Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 839 k > >Mountain Democrat - 3/4/1987 >...by DAve Cole HEY YOU, why dontchA MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve HA, hA. I got >A million.....test wAs tAken, the CHP sAid. Church's new TREE to be plAnted >soon COLOMA The EmmAnuel.....Church in ColomA is About to get A new TREE to >replAce the venerAble old cedAr thAt.....contrActed to plAnt A young Incense CedA >r TREE in the sAme spot inhAbited by the former.. >Placerville, California Wednesday, March 04, 1987 500 k > > > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Thu Feb 26 02:37:01 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:37:01 -0500 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: Ya mean me gran'dad was really sayin' "face and begorra"? Seán Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Tuesday, 24 February, 2004 13:00 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, i wrote: > we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that > what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken > speech or both. or, even more likely, now that i think about it, irish (drunk or sober). wasn't a lithp a conventional indication of working-class irish english, in print at this period (late 19th century, early 20th century)? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 02:48:16 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:48:16 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: Students are sloppy about all manner of things. I don't think that any of my students do not know the difference between one name and two, they just don't proof-read. In a message dated 2/25/04 5:20:17 PM, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: << I do agree that this is a problem we constantly have to work with students (even grad students) on. They cite the first author, and sometimes any randomly picked author from a multiple set, as if that's enough. They also often use the singular verb, and they regularly cite only one part of a hyphenated name (even supposedly savvy American students do this!). I'm a prescriptivist on these rules too, simply because it's disrespectful of multiple authors, their collaborative contributions, and their right to make their own name order decisions. Of course, students don't know any better unless someone tells them; but this should have been done long before they get to us. And if journals and reviewers violate the rules, shame on them. >> From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 26 04:24:41 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:24:41 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Order of authors' names Message-ID: from the estimable editor anne mark of mit press, about: > ...the order of authors’ names in LI. For a while we indeed had a > policy that names should be in alphabetical order. However, a few > years ago we changed the policy and now authors can list their names > in whatever order they prefer. We’ll incorporate the change the next > time we update the style sheet. so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 26 04:31:00 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:31:00 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:38 PM -0500 2/24/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking >tickets. > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > "Make like a tree?" > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an anachronism, given the above date. Larry From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Feb 26 13:40:54 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:40:54 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Order of authors' names Message-ID: I've been checking around in biology, and instead of having the Principal Investigator listed last as my major professor in biology taught me and as I reported before, most journals in that field allow any order to be used also. In some cases, I don't think every person in the author list even has participated in the writing process. Some merely have submitted research input. Times they be a-changin? "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > from the estimable editor anne mark of mit press, about: > > > ...the order of authors’ names in LI. For a while we indeed had a > > policy that names should be in alphabetical order. However, a few > > years ago we changed the policy and now authors can list their names > > in whatever order they prefer. We’ll incorporate the change the next > > time we update the style sheet. > > so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 16:08:27 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:08:27 EST Subject: troublesome line division Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:53:56 -0800, "Arnold M. Zwicky" writes > from our own paul mcfedries's Word Spy book (2004), p. 190: > > ...The use of the term was possibly inspired by the semi- > otician Umberto Eco's 1967 essay... > > line divisions courtesy of the editors, or (more likely) their > word-processing programs. > > what i want to know is: just how close did umberto eco come to being > an otician? A semi-otician treats hearing problems among tractor-trailer drivers. A little more seriously, I am curious as to whether Professor Eco would be amused by this typo. (Oddly, he need not speak English to understand it, since "semi" is from Latin). My opinion of him would be much lowered if he were not. OT - has anyone gone public claiming a direct descent from Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_ and the recent _Da Vinci Code_? For other accidental semioticianisms, there is the Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:22 EST post which reads "Cary Grant, a closest bisexual, ..." and the headline currently showing on AOL News which reads Crackdown on Shock Jocks Risky Tast for Astronauts - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 16:14:40 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:14:40 EST Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: In Louisville, Kentucky, in the early 1950's a local TV station (I think it was WAVE) had a locally-produced show every weekday at noon in which the host (I think his name was Ed Kallay, with a guess at the spelling) had two catchphrases: "So long like a hot dog" "See you 'round like a doughnut" - James A. Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 19:32:47 2004 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:32:47 -0500 Subject: Three Inaugurations Message-ID: This announcement is for members in good standing of the American Dialect Society: We've been invited to three different inaugurations. For each we can designate a delegate to represent the Society (and to march toward the head of the procession, at least among learned societies, since we were founded in 1889). Aside from the procession and ceremony itself, there are ancillary events like luncheons and concerts. The delegate will be expected to provide her or his own academic attire, and her or his own travel expenses. In return, the delegate gets the opportunity to share in the festivities and meet lots of colleagues in the world of higher learning. The delegate's name also gets immortalized in the program of the inauguration. Here are the particulars of the inaugurations. If you are interested in representing ADS at one of these, please let me know soon, not via ADS-L but at my e-mail address: AAllan at aol.com. Wednesday, March 31, 10 a.m., Fort Worth, Texas: Inauguration of Victor J. Boschini, Jr. as tenth chancellor of Texas Christian U. Saturday, April 3, 2 p.m., Millersville, Pennsylvania: Inauguration of Francine G. McNairy as thirteenth president of Millersville U. Events begin Friday with luncheon, dinner, threatre production of "Glass Meangerie"; on Saturday there's a brunch at 11. All at no cost to the delegate, of course. Thursday, April 15, 3 p.m., Bloomington, Indiana: Inauguration of Adam W. Herbert as seventeenth president of Indiana U. Luncheon beforehand, at no cost to delegate, of course. So - if you're in the mood to celebrate, if you can spare the time and travel the distance, and if you're a current ADS member - let me know! Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Feb 27 01:27:35 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:27:35 EST Subject: Order of authors' names--need for an official policy? Message-ID: In a message dated 2/25/04 11:24:53 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. >> Does it seem worth doing something about? I'd be happy to take it up with the proper authorities at the American Dialect Society, but it is not easy to imagine what such a policy should (could?) say. LI's approach doesn't seem to have been a success. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 02:15:46 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:15:46 -0500 Subject: Fwd: "yestersol" Message-ID: An early nominee for the WOTY list, courtesy of a colleague on another list... --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:20:59 +0000 From: JohnM Subject: yestersol As someone who is following closely the Mars mission (and will almost certainly put a summary on my website) I couldn't help being fascinated by the new word 'yestersol' which NASA has invented (sol being a Martian day, 20 mins longer than ours). I have not as yet seen 'tosol' but it can't be far away. Now you can't have a word like this in many other languages. You can't in any Latin-derived languages, you can't in Greek or in German. The only language I know when you can have a similar construction is Hungarian (nap=day) tegnap=yesterday ->tegsol) and they are one better because they can have tomorrow, too! (holnap=tomorrow->holsol). Sorry for being so sad, but does anyone know any other languages that could have yestersol? -- JohnM Author of Brazil: Life, Blood, Soul http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/spaver.htm --- end forwarded text From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 27 03:01:13 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:01:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "like kissing your sister" 1931 (was ...A tie is like kissing your sister) Message-ID: Barry found the probable sports source of "A tie is like kissing your sister" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208C&L=ads-l&P=R3846 from 1954. But, the phrase was known before that. At least the basic premise, that "kissing your sister" wasn't exactly the "real thing." Using Newspaperarchive, .... 15 Oct. 1931 _Lime Springs (IA) Sun Herald_ page #=?/3 [an article about the Presbyterian Church] <> SC No doubt there's a West Virginia joke there. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 27 05:12:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:12:04 EST Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: BRUNCH OED also has "brunch" in 1896. Perhaps this helps. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) New Oxford Item - 11/27/1896 ...is supposed to be the midday time between BREAKFAST and LUNCH. Fashion may be foolish.....is to issue invitations for a meal called "BRUNCH." This means a repast at 11 o'clock a.....it is quite safe to state that if the free LUNCH had not been knocked oat by the Eaines.. New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, November 27, 1896 707 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DIME This is on nba.com. Neither HDAS nor the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "dime," meaning an assist in basketball. (WWW.NBA.COM) Arenas Displays Wizardry Gilbert Arenas highlighted a 95-87 Washington win over Chicago with 21 points, 13 dimes and 12 boards. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: USA Today Article ... (For you non-basketball-holics, an assist is sometimes referred to as a dime. Thus, 35 cents, 3.5 dimes, 3.5 assists. Follow that?) But let's run it anyway. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.utah-jazz - Apr 19, 2000 by Absaraka - View Thread (13 articles) Re: A Rant on Fans what do I prize most in a basketball player? ... Kidd who can make a pass on a dime, but also ... he averaged just under 4 per game....Wilt's career assist average was ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Aug 15, 2000 by MJ - View Thread (80 articles) OTrib: Clunker vs. Kings again ... You can't play basketball like that ... point guard Earl Boykins had six of those dimes, but three came ... Adonal Foyle and Jiri Welsch each tallied a single assist. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.gs-warriors - Dec 23, 2002 by Allen L - View Thread (1 article) Re: I'll Say It Again: THE BEST BACKCOURT IN THE NATION ... the ultimate point guard by dropping 10 dimes and taking ... Iverson that he is part of a basketball team and ... They each have recorded at least one assist this year ... rec.sport.basketball.college - Dec 6, 1995 by Kim Hunt - View Thread (12 articles) Ralph Wiley on Thomas, Starbury, and other shots ... to underestimate Isiah's capabilities in any basketball area. ... He started driving and dishing dimes, dropping that little ... Thomas of Assist-I. Who cares how much ... alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks - Jan 8, 2004 by captainobvious - View Thread (2 articles) Very Early returns on the PG lotto ... Watson went off for 11 dimes in 18 minutes versus the Wizards, presumably to remind Blake of ... Otherwise Watson's assist numbers are more like Banks and Anthony. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba - Oct 19, 2003 by cLIeNUX user - View Thread (1 article) Re: Ruben, you got punked ... d wager that he continues to hog boards and drop mucho dimes until shaq ... question his rebounding numbers will drop when shaq returns, but his assist numbers may ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 4, 2002 by brinkm311 - View Thread (6 articles) Profile on Alvin at espn.com ... Alvin, meanwhile, dropped 13 dimes without a single turnover and added 14 points. ... triple-double against the Hawks and posting a 5.25-1 assist-turnover ratio ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.tor-raptors - Apr 5, 2001 by VicG - View Thread (5 articles) Sportsline: Anderson Annoyed With Pitino ... from point guard Kenny Anderson, who isn't even among the top 20 assist leaders in ... in the league, is disgusted with his slide down to about five dimes a game. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Apr 14, 2000 by Way Of The Ray - View Thread (4 articles) Re: anybody see the half time report... ... of possessions? That's acutally good news. The suprising thing was his 1 assist. He is usually good for 6 dimes a night. He also ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 10, 1999 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 05:34:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:34:50 -0800 Subject: ordering of authors' names Message-ID: anne mark of mit press explains the abandonment of alphabetical order: >The change had to do with academic culture. Some authors felt that other >linguists (including potential employers and tenure committees) assume >that the first-named author of a paper is the primary author. Sometimes >when author X considered himself or herself the primary author of a >paper yet was named second, alphabetically, after author A, the authors >asked to insert a footnote reading "The authors' names appear in >alphabetical order." This seemed awkward, so we finally decided to >simply let the authors themselves determine the order of their names. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From slangman at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 27 14:01:07 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:01:07 -0800 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: If you tune in to the NCAA Tournament on CBS, you might hear some words or phrases you never have heard before. And they won't be coming from Bob Knight. The culprit will be CBS studio analyst Clark Kellogg, who has a language all his own when it comes to describing a basketball game. You might have caught Kellogg's unique act on ESPN, where he has worked as an analyst since 1988. In Kellogg's vernacular, a player doesn't make an assist, he "drops a dime." A really nifty assist is "dropping a shiny dime." Kellogg picked up some of the terms during his college (Ohio State) and NBA (Indiana Pacers) careers, but most of the catchy phrases come from shoot-arounds and summer pickup games. Tom Dalzell Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >BRUNCH > > OED also has "brunch" in 1896. Perhaps this helps. > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >New Oxford Item - 11/27/1896 >...is supposed to be the midday time between BREAKFAST and LUNCH. Fashion may >be foolish.....is to issue invitations for a meal called "BRUNCH." This means >a repast at 11 o'clock a.....it is quite safe to state that if the free LUNCH >had not been knocked oat by the Eaines.. >New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, November 27, 1896 707 k > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- >DIME > > This is on nba.com. Neither HDAS nor the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has >"dime," meaning an assist in basketball. > >(WWW.NBA.COM) >Arenas Displays Wizardry >Gilbert Arenas highlighted a 95-87 Washington win over Chicago with 21 >points, 13 dimes and 12 boards. > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Re: USA Today Article >... (For you non-basketball-holics, an assist is sometimes referred to as a >dime. Thus, >35 cents, 3.5 dimes, 3.5 assists. Follow that?) But let's run it anyway. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.utah-jazz - Apr 19, 2000 by Absaraka - View Thread >(13 articles) > >Re: A Rant on Fans >what do I prize most in a basketball player? ... Kidd who can make a pass on >a dime, but >also ... he averaged just under 4 per game....Wilt's career assist average >was ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Aug 15, 2000 by MJ - View Thread >(80 articles) > >OTrib: Clunker vs. Kings again >... You can't play basketball like that ... point guard Earl Boykins had six >of those dimes, >but three came ... Adonal Foyle and Jiri Welsch each tallied a single assist. >... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.gs-warriors - Dec 23, 2002 by Allen L - View Thread >(1 article) > >Re: I'll Say It Again: THE BEST BACKCOURT IN THE NATION >... the ultimate point guard by dropping 10 dimes and taking ... Iverson that >he is part of >a basketball team and ... They each have recorded at least one assist this >year ... >rec.sport.basketball.college - Dec 6, 1995 by Kim Hunt - View Thread (12 >articles) > >Ralph Wiley on Thomas, Starbury, and other shots >... to underestimate Isiah's capabilities in any basketball area. ... He >started driving and >dishing dimes, dropping that little ... Thomas of Assist-I. Who cares how >much ... >alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks - Jan 8, 2004 by captainobvious - View >Thread (2 articles) > >Very Early returns on the PG lotto >... Watson went off for 11 dimes in 18 minutes versus the Wizards, presumably >to remind >Blake of ... Otherwise Watson's assist numbers are more like Banks and >Anthony. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba - Oct 19, 2003 by cLIeNUX user - View Thread (1 >article) > >Re: Ruben, you got punked >... d wager that he continues to hog boards and drop mucho dimes until shaq >... question his >rebounding numbers will drop when shaq returns, but his assist numbers may >... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 4, 2002 by brinkm311 - View Thread >(6 articles) > >Profile on Alvin at espn.com >... Alvin, meanwhile, dropped 13 dimes without a single turnover and added 14 >points. ... triple-double >against the Hawks and posting a 5.25-1 assist-turnover ratio ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.tor-raptors - Apr 5, 2001 by VicG - View Thread (5 >articles) > >Sportsline: Anderson Annoyed With Pitino >... from point guard Kenny Anderson, who isn't even among the top 20 assist >leaders in ... in >the league, is disgusted with his slide down to about five dimes a game. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Apr 14, 2000 by Way Of The Ray - >View Thread (4 articles) > >Re: anybody see the half time report... >... of possessions? That's acutally good news. The suprising thing was >his 1 assist. He is usually good for 6 dimes a night. He also ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 10, 1999 > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 14:54:42 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:42 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) In-Reply-To: <403F4DA3.5060301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: Here's a little earlier: THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in the five games they did play together that they are compatible. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Feb 27 15:04:02 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:04:02 -0600 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between an assist in basketball and a dime? Gerald Cohen At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > >> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: > >Here's a little earlier: > >THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS >April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION >SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > >Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be >effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those >dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in >the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > >Fred Shapiro From uncmlt at JUNO.COM Fri Feb 27 12:05:55 2004 From: uncmlt at JUNO.COM (MILT COHEN) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:05:55 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: Perhaps some of these "dime" plays aren't worth a plugged nickle - maybe. Milt Cohen Chatsworth, Ca. On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:42 -0500 Fred Shapiro writes: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > > > From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan > Cahill: > > Here's a little earlier: > > THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS > April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION > SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > > Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be > effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of > those > dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed > in > the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > > Fred Shapiro > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 15:36:03 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:36:03 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One does something precisely 'on the money' and even more precisely 'on a a dime' ('to stop on a dime'). A good assist has that accuracy component. dInIs >This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between >an assist in basketball and a dime? > >Gerald Cohen > > >At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: >> >>> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: >> >>Here's a little earlier: >> >>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS >>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION >>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b >> >>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be >>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those >>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in >>the five games they did play together that they are compatible. >> >>Fred Shapiro From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 27 16:57:24 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:57:24 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: I first remember hearing "Make like like a tree and leave." back in the 1950s. I heard it from my friend Richard Loomis. I always associated it with jazz slang since his father and uncle had both played in big bands, and Dick used to use a lot of jazz slang. I still suspect that it comes from this venue if for no other reason than it sounds like it although I have no evidence for this. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:31 PM Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 7:38 PM -0500 2/24/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many > >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking > >tickets. > > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > > "Make like a tree?" > > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" > > "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in > Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who > gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or > his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make > like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a > tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an > anachronism, given the above date. > > Larry From debaron at UIUC.EDU Fri Feb 27 17:51:23 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:51:23 -0600 Subject: make like a tree Message-ID: I think I began using "Make like a noun and decline" around 1960--I'd just started Latin-- in response to the popularity of "Make like a tree and leave," which seemed relatively new at the time. Dennis Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:02:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:02:41 -0500 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: <8E7BCF3E-694D-11D8-ACF7-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: >Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. dInIs >I think I began using "Make like a noun and decline" around 1960--I'd >just started Latin-- in response to the popularity of "Make like a tree >and leave," which seemed relatively new at the time. > >Dennis > > >Dennis Baron office: >217-244-0568 >Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 >Department of English fax: >217-333-4321 >University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 >debaron at uiuc.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:08:44 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:08:44 -0800 Subject: Order of authors' names--need for an official policy? In-Reply-To: <1a4.2070d8a6.2d6ff707@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 26, 2004, at 5:27 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/25/04 11:24:53 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > writes: > > << so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. >> > > Does it seem worth doing something about? I'd be happy to take it up > with the > proper authorities at the American Dialect Society, but it is not easy > to > imagine what such a policy should (could?) say. LI's approach doesn't > seem to > have been a success. i can't see a policy that authors would find acceptable. the LSA lets people order themselves as they wish (in Language and on papers presented at meetings), the ADS does the same, and the AAAS, and (i discover by looking at some back issues of Daedalus) the American Academy, and every book publisher that i know of. and so on. it's yet another case of constraints in conflct (alphabetical order, order of descending significance in the world, order of descending contribution to the work, Grand Old Person Last out of politeness -- i'm almost surprised we haven't found a work with names ordered phonologically, by number of syllables, for instance), with different resolutions of the conflicts in different contexts. this is, like it or not, just the way the world works. you could try to prescribe some universal resolution, but the users of the system are going to rebel, and for good reason, because they have other goals and these are important to them. given this background, it's distressing that tenure review committees should (occasionally -- very occasionally, i hope) be weighting first-authored papers more heavily than others. but then tenure review committees have been known to mindlessly count pages too. the committees, especially at high levels of review, tend to get desperate at the size of the task (i can remember, with dismay, looking at files for a hundred or more cases) and hope for easy gauges of worth. but there's no substitute for trying to understand the context and content of a candidate's work. i doubt that a prescription from any of our organizations would work to eliminate such instances of human laziness and stupidity. it's up to those of us in academic institutions to speak up. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:12:57 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:12:57 -0800 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 27, 2004, at 10:02 AM, dInIs wrote: >> Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. at some point i heard this on a list of world's worst pick-up lines (though i suspected at the time that no one had actually *used* it -- but then the extent of human folly is enormous, so ya never know). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 19:39:39 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:39:39 -0500 Subject: Request for Newspaperarchive, ProQuest Searches Message-ID: I seem to have lost my access to the good interface for Newspaperarchive. Is anyone with such access willing to tell me what are the earliest respective occurrences in that database for each of the following two quotes: You can't be too rich or too thin [probably best just to search for "too rich or too thin"] Today is the first day of the rest of your life [probably best just to search for "first day of the rest of your life"] Also, is anyone with access to Wall Street Journal Historical and/or Christian Science Monitor Historical willing to search one or both of these for earliest occurrences of the same quotes? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 27 21:04:08 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:04:08 -0500 Subject: Request for Newspaperarchive, ProQuest Searches Message-ID: Newspaperarchive--10 August, 1970 "a woman can never be too rich or too thin." 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." Sam > Is anyone with such access willing to tell me what are the earliest > respective occurrences in that database for each of the following two > quotes: > > You can't be too rich or too thin [probably best just to search for "too > rich or too thin"] > > Today is the first day of the rest of your life [probably best just to > search for "first day of the rest of your life"] > > Also, is anyone with access to Wall Street Journal Historical and/or > Christian Science Monitor Historical willing to search one or both > of these for earliest occurrences of the same quotes? > Fred R. Shapiro From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 27 21:32:14 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:32:14 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: Since the newspaper passage quoted refers to the dimes as "dropping", perhaps the phrase was influenced by the expression "to drop a dime" -- in NYC, this means to inform on someone, or report someone's misdeeds; the image is dropping a dime into a payphone. I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC at least the cost of a pay-phone call has gone up to a quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train is still "choo-choo". So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the payphone altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp in oblivion. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" Date: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:36 am Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) > One does something precisely 'on the money' and even more precisely > 'on a a dime' ('to stop on a dime'). A good assist has that accuracy > component. > > dInIs > > > > >This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between > >an assist in basketball and a dime? > > > >Gerald Cohen > > > > > >At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: > >>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > >> > >>> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by > Dan Cahill: > >> > >>Here's a little earlier: > >> > >>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS > >>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION > >>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > >> > >>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be > >>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of > those>>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the > two showed in > >>the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > >> > >>Fred Shapiro > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Feb 27 21:37:31 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <99c1749a2285.9a228599c174@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 27, 2004 at 04:32:14PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > > I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC >at least the cost of a pay-phone call has gone up to a >quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train is still "choo-choo". >So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the payphone >altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp >in oblivion. "drop a dime" and its relatives are still quite common. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 21:50:16 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:50:16 -0500 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: <92395450-6950-11D8-8957-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Now that you mention it, I think that's where I got it. dInIs PS: Of course, I used it a lot in my youth, and, you're right, it never worked. >On Feb 27, 2004, at 10:02 AM, dInIs wrote: > >>>Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. > >at some point i heard this on a list of world's worst pick-up lines >(though i suspected at the time that no one had actually *used* it -- >but then the extent of human folly is enormous, so ya never know). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 27 23:31:33 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:31:33 -0500 Subject: sweep the kitchen Message-ID: Back in July '03 Barry posted long lists of terms from "hash house slang" from newspapers. One, from 1931, a posting headed "Graveyard Stew", had the term "sweep the kitchen" as the call for an order of hash. Another, I think under the heading "hash house slang" was from 1886 and included jocular derogatory/disgusting names for dishes, (so the tradition is old,) but not "sweep the kitchen". The girl from Rector's, by George Rector, Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, Page, 1927, is reminiscences by an early 20th C. NYC restauranteur. I was looking at it because a cabaret he ran in the 1910s, also called Rector's, had an early jazz band. Nothing very useful in that respect, but he mentions the vaudeville team of Smith & Dale, and their act involving a surly and incompetent waiter and a hassled customer. The customer orders hash, the waiter calls out "sweep the kitchen". (p. 221.) According to The Encyclopedia of Vaudeville by Anthony Slide, Westport, Conn., Greenwood Press, 1994, Smith and Dale met in 1898 when teenagers, and began their restaurant sketch in 1919. Is there anyone among us old enough to remember Smith and Dale appearing on the Ed Sullivan show in the 1950s? -- other than me and Mike Salovesh, if he is still following our comical misadventures here -- it's been far too long since we have heard from him. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 04:43:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:43:09 -0500 Subject: Pot Sticker (1973); Dark Horse (1822) Message-ID: POT STICKER Some OED-type person asked me about "pot sticker." I'll do some work on it tomorrow (Saturday). I was hoping to first try the lazy method and see when the LOS ANGELES TIMES would have it, but "pot sticker" is not there through 1957. Merriam-Webster's 11th has 1975 for "a crescent-shaped dumpling filled usu. with pork, steamed, and then fried." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) As the Year 4671 Arrives, A New Wave of Snobbery Tempts Eager Diners; A New Wave of Snobbery Tempts Diners By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 1, 1973. p. H1 (2 pages): Pg. H14: _GUO TIE_ _(Fried Jiao-zi)_ Leftover boiled dumplings can be refrigerated and served fried at another meal. When fried they are called Guo tie which literally means "pot stickers." --------------------------------------------------------------- DARK HORSE "Dark horse" is for those political dictionary people out there. "Dark horse" is in William Safire's column this Sunday, and it's wrong. (This is embarrassing. He can't pay Kathleen Miller a few extra bucks?) (NY TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/magazine/29ONLANGUAGE.html There is one word that Kerry and his connotation-conscious top staff deliberately resist: ''I don't like the word front-runner,'' Shrum told The Times, ''and John Kerry abominates it.'' This is one of the many horse-racing terms adopted by political writers. At the national convention in Boston, will anyone bolt? To use a term coined by Benjamin Disraeli in a novel, will a dark horse emerge? Is Kerry a shoo-in? (That's when corrupt jockeys form a ring to bet on a long shot, hold their mounts back and shoo in the horse that they have chosen to win. Do not spell it shoe-in; a shoo-in is a race in which the winner was the only one trying.) (OED) 8. Of whom or which nothing is generally known; about whose powers, etc., the public are ‘in the dark’. dark horse (Racing slang), a horse about whose racing powers little is known; hence fig. a candidate or competitor of whom little is known or heard, but who unexpectedly comes to the front. In U.S. Politics, a person not named as a candidate before a convention, who unexpectedly receives the nomination, when the convention has failed to agree upon any of the leading candidates. 1831 DISRAELI Yng. Duke v. (Farmer), A dark horse, which had never been thought of..rushed past the grand stand in sweeping triumph. 1860 Sat. Rev. IX. 593/1 A Headship..often given by the College conclaves to a man who has judiciously kept himself dark. 1865 Sketches from Camb. 36 (Hoppe) Every now and then a dark horse is heard of, who is supposed to have done wonders at some obscure small college. 1884 in Harper's Mag. Aug. 472/1 A simultaneous turning toward a ‘dark horse’. 1885 A. BERESFORD-HOPE in Pall Mall G. 19 Mar. 10/1 Two millions of dark men..whose ignorance and stupidity could hardly be grasped. 1888 Boston (Mass.) Jrnl. 19 June 5/4 That a dark horse is likely to come out of such a complicated situation as this is most probable. 1891 N. GOULD Double Event 8 When he won the Regimental Cup with Rioter, a dark horse he had specially reserved to discomfort them. 1893 Standard 17 Apr. 6/6 Irish Wake, a ‘dark’ son of Master Kildare. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Edinburgh Advertiser - 9/24/1822 ...s man won What is termed an outside or a DARK HORSE always tells well for heavy.....had strangely missed this Swap was a better HORSE than the Haphazard colt belonging to.....the same owner (Mr. and that HORSE having beat some very good ones in a.. Edinburgh, Midlothian Tuesday, September 24, 1822 594 k Col 2: What is termed an _outside_ or a dark horse always tells well for heavy betters. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 04:58:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:58:49 -0500 Subject: Today is first day of rest of your life (1969) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Feb 28 13:47:35 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: <200402280500.i1S50Cvq002244@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry sez: > "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in > Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who > gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or > his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make > like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a > tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an > anachronism, given the above date. My recollection of the movie has the big, dumb leader of the gang of bullies saying it, and I think then his followers react, but non-verbally. This is part of a running gag: he also gives a list as (more or less) "Number one... B... fourth..." -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 17:58:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:58:09 EST Subject: First 100 Years Hardest (1918); Genius & Inspiration & Perspiration (1898, 1901) Message-ID: Just checking a few more of Gregory Titelman's RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS with Newspaperarchive. Titleman has 1928 for "the first one hundred years are the hardest" and 1914 for "genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration." The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS gives this to Thomas Edison, c. 1903. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE FIRST HUNDRED YEARS ARE THE HARDEST Perhaps coined by the famous cartoonist Briggs in 1918? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Bridgeport Telegram - 7/29/1918 ...Moran comedy will also be shown. The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....AMBiTrorJ OP LIFE TIME is I'M AT Ti-tE VERY FIRST IN THE IT'S I FIGURE, LOST 5ooo GOLF.....1 "Dolly's Vacation." >T TAKS.S ABOUT YEARS To LEARN To THE ot-D eve OM THE MY.....speeches were mudo. The speakers were FIRST Selectman Cheny, B. McCarthv and Kev P.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Monday, July 29, 1918 539 k Pg. 7, col. 2 comic: _The First Hundred Years Are the Hardest_ Drawn for The Telegram by Briggs Bridgeport Telegram - 8/6/1918 ...PREMIER'S WORD TO ALL BRITAIN The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....In September and of I tnrer, was 70 YEARS old last SaturHilsi number are new.....age is its guarantee. For more than thirty YEARS it has been in constant use for the.....and which has been in use for over 30 YEARS, has borne the Signature of Chas, H.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, August 06, 1918 593 k Bridgeport Telegram - 8/19/1918 ...FIRST Inning Allow Yanks to Win The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....i Slin-wood hy h'irst. on oil' L', (iff 1', FIRST (nt JJrldKeport I. on liases, New York.....lUli r'oi'CillKI'IKI'SIK, N. Y., t S.-Two HUNDRED and s-'veatv horses are catered in.....Iron li'tniii" at J Hilnlh. Braves Capture FIRST, 3-1; Cubs Take Second, 3-1 CHIC.UiO.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Monday, August 19, 1918 601 k Manitoba Morning Free Press - 8/24/1918 ...trouble Is a service station Job. THE FIRST HUNDRED YEARS ARE HARDEST Considerably.....can afire, If wo did not let them huvo It FIRST, you understnnd why an airplane la.....has been in the accessory business thirteen YEARS, which makes many of his friends wonder.....company, Mr. Nearing has for the past six YEARS been in charge of sales for N. J.. Winnipeg, Manitoba Saturday, August 24, 1918 893 k Pg. 13, cols. 4-5 headline: _THE FIRST HUNDRED_ _YEARS ARE HARDEST_ Bridgeport Telegram - 9/3/1918 ...SPECIALISTS BLDG. NOBLE -162 The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....Before Mammoth Crowd at Hartford Attend FIRST Charter Oak Races Walter Cox Piloting.....World Series 'tho lend securerl In recent YEARS by tho American League teams Is.....which failed to finish in either of atho FIRST two heats because of. enSeine trouble.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, September 03, 1918 653 k Coshocton Tribune - 2/5/1919 ...finds. In the new subway. That t.hp FIRST, HUNDRED YEARS. Arc tho. hardest. LIFE IS.....And .give way lo twitching. JJlte f did at FIRST. CJoinE down town. In the now subway.....and says, his manner stern and grim, up a HUNDRED bucks. Mechanics, men of wondrous.....have be local affairs as they were forty YEARS ago and national and even international.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, February 05, 1919 982 k (Pg. 4, col. 1. The syndicated "New York Day-By-Day," by O. O. McIntyre--ed.) Going down town In the new subway Is just as easy But one finds In the new subway That the first hundred years Are the hardest. Appleton Post Crescent - 4/20/1920 ...you wish. Cartoonist Briggs says "the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the hardest." and so be it.....down wealth and punish the rich. HOOVER'S FIRST Sl'OXSOR The New York World, the FIRST.....down. Our savace forefathers, thousands of YEARS ago. dlnod on wild cabbage. Inose hond.....conductor le Bedford Gazette - 10/6/1922 ...raised over the question whether "the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the longest" or "the FIRST.....We hazard the '-opinion that, the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the most plausible.....BELL TELEPHONE ENGINEER DR. BELL MADF THE FIRST WIRELESS TELEPHONE APPARATUS Having.....HUNDRED YEARS the hardest.. Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, October 06, 1922 930 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GENIUS & INSPIRATION & PERSPIRATION Fred Shapiro has probably added some sweat to this. I think this makes porn star Ron Jeremy the great genius of our age, but I digress. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Herald - 5/18/1898 ...says Thomas A. EDISON. and he adds: for GENIUS being inspired, INSPIRATION is ia most.....she would ii IbC like smiling: so we lt; Book Buyers. During the recent book sale In.....cases another word for PERSPIRATION. As the foremost example in the.....world of one type of GENIUS. Mr. EDISON is aa authority on tbe.. Delphos, Ohio Wednesday, May 18, 1898 909 k Idaho Daily Statesman - 5/6/1901 ...drlvthe session of the International Mining PERSPIRATION." People who take apply to the.....as fate." made a part heredf. And you are GENIUS is another name for hard TJvork.....and answer said complaint as i.s 1 per cent INSPIRATION and 99 H. I. M'ELFRESH, held in.....that if you fail to aprhonest work.' says EDISON, pear.. Boise, Idaho Monday, May 06, 1901 956 k Gazette And Bulletin - 1/25/1913 ...laziness Mr: wid. "Talk about GENIUS being PERSPIRATION instead of INSPIRATION Why, when.....But Ws friend prevented rwn. "The same Text Book, .hymns and is what the big ad. said.....reading fioiu tli0 Bible andfrom the text book, "Science and Health With Key to the.....the Century club In New York about a lazy GENIUS. He la.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, January 25, 1913 820 k Iowa City Citizen - 10/21/1918 ...of Edison's success. "GENIUS is 2 per cent INSPIRATION and per cent PERSPIRATION.....The story of the life of this remarkable GENIUS reads like a romance, yet his.....Recreation, the final triumph of the Edison GENIUS in the line of the perfect.. Iowa City, Iowa Monday, October 21, 1918 797 k Washington Post - 5/10/1915 ...IB 1 per rent INSPIRATION and 99 [KM cent PERSPIRATION. This, in turn, 'cuds the New.....will succeed in bringing forth a GENIUS. But the kindred truth that GENIUS has.....there may be cases in which no amount of PERSPIRATION .....a desire to partake of the evi dence. GENIUS AND WORK. reci'iit meeting to (lo.. Washington, District Of Columbia Monday, May 10, 1915 841 k Lancaster Daily Eagle - 9/18/1917 ...10 -If' A. [Says GENIUS is 95 Peicant PERSPIRATION and 5 Percent INSPIRATION.....of what. Thomas Iv Rd recently said: "GENIUS is fir. ceftt. PERSPIRATION and five.....for his supporting cast and working staff "PERSPIRATION never harmed a healthy smiled.. Lancaster, Ohio Tuesday, September 18, 1917 615 k Coshocton Daily Age - 12/19/1903 ...Sir Arthur Sullivan that INSPIRATION is PERSPIRATION.' I don't believe in the old.....bear more certainly the marks of real GENIUS than his maglnficent and mystic music.....as much on stick-at-ltlve ness, as on INSPIRATION, then other toilers in all the.. Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, December 19, 1903 743 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 3/29/1904 ...X. Y., Feb. 17? 1900. GENIUS is partly INSPIRATION, but mostly PERSPIRATION. Kdison.....often remarked that the children of a great GENIUS seldom exhibit corresponding powers.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Tuesday, March 29, 1904 858 k Sandusky Register - 2/11/1911 ...of his remark that GENIUS is per cent, INSPIRATION aud 98 per cen PERSPIRATION. BODY.. Sandusky, Ohio Saturday, February 11, 1911 680 k Iowa City Citizen - 8/20/1917 ...the price of Hie GENIUS and two thirds of INSPIRATION is PERSPIRATION. The same is true.. Iowa City, Iowa Monday, August 20, 1917 752 k Indianapolis Star - 10/15/1916 ...it Is true tjiat 'GENIUS Is 95 per cont PERSPIRATION and only C per cent INSPIRATION.....1 have kept a memorandum of all facts I my book on 'The Artificial Waterways of the.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 15, 1916 923 k Elyria Chronicle - 8/27/1907 ...Homer Bates in Cantcry. NUG3ETS. GENIUS Is INSPIRATION. Talent Is PERSPIRATION. Do not.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, August 27, 1907 779 k Lime Springs Sun - 11/10/1904 ...Edison says that GENIUS is partly INSPIRATION, but moatly PERSPIRATION. Gold.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, November 10, 1904 442 k From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 21:38:15 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:38:15 EST Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:32:14 -0500, George Thompson writes > Since the newspaper passage quoted refers to the dimes as "dropping", > perhaps the phrase was influenced by the expression "to drop a dime" -- in > NYC, this means to inform on someone, or report someone's misdeeds; the image > is dropping a dime into a payphone. > > I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC at least the cost > of a pay-phone call has gone up to a quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train > is still "choo-choo". So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the > payphone altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp in > oblivion. or perhaps the reference is to putting a dime into not a payphone but a pay toilet. I don't know if pay toilets in the US always cost a dime, but a man born ca. 1920 told me that as a child he and his buddies would offer, for a nickel, to slip under the door of a pay booth and unlock it from the inside. About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant "I have to go to the bathroom". - James A. Landau From mailinglist at JIMMYMULLAN.COM Sat Feb 28 22:18:41 2004 From: mailinglist at JIMMYMULLAN.COM (James Mullan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:18:41 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <190.2664a21a.2d726447@aol.com> Message-ID: At 16:38 2/28/04, James A. Landau wrote, in "Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question)": [snip] >About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they >are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant >"I have to go to the bathroom". High-priced relief, indeed. However, by 1980, British currency had been decimalised, from the old £1=250 pence=20shillings, to £1=100p (the unit being referred to in daily usage as a "pee"), and the shilling was no more, being then equal to 5p ("five pee"). Whilst there might have been inflation in the actual cost of use of "public toilets" as they are known in the UK, the expression was, in fact: "to spend a penny", and this term remains in usage today. It also gave rise to the old toilet wall rhyme: Here I sit, broken hearted paid a penny, only farted. Jimmy From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 28 23:00:43 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:00:43 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040228171022.04045450@www.jimmymullan.com> Message-ID: Or those of us who remember US prices: Here I sit all broken-hearted Paid a dime to shit and only farted dInIs >At 16:38 2/28/04, James A. Landau wrote, in "Re: Brunch (1896); Dime >(1995)---(Question)": >[snip] > >>About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they >>are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant >>"I have to go to the bathroom". > >High-priced relief, indeed. However, by 1980, British currency had been >decimalised, from the old £1=250 pence=20shillings, to £1=100p (the unit >being referred to in daily usage as a "pee"), and the shilling was no more, >being then equal to 5p ("five pee"). >Whilst there might have been inflation in the actual cost of use of "public >toilets" as they are known in the UK, the expression was, in fact: "to >spend a penny", and this term remains in usage today. > >It also gave rise to the old toilet wall rhyme: >Here I sit, broken hearted >paid a penny, only farted. > >Jimmy From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 28 23:17:53 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:17:53 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Here I sit all broken-hearted >Paid a dime to shit and only farted Recorded by A. W. Read, 1928: a non-mercenary version: Here I sit all broken hearted Came to shit and only farted ... described as "very popular". -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 28 23:21:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:21:35 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) > or perhaps the reference is to putting a dime into not a payphone but a pay > toilet. > > I don't know if pay toilets in the US always cost a dime, but a man born ca. > 1920 told me that as a child he and his buddies would offer, for a nickel, to > slip under the door of a pay booth and unlock it from the inside. - James A. Landau US newspapers from 1952 show the Pennsylvania railroad was trying to get Congressional legislation to raise the price of pay toilets in their stations from a nickel to a dime. So, it's likely all pay toilets in US were only a nickel up until that time. SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Feb 29 01:26:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:26:56 -0800 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! Message-ID: a small chapter in the annals of verbal magic... letter in today's (2/28/04) Palo Alto Daily News, arguing that "there are sound reasons to reject Regional Measure 2, which would hike most Bay bridge tolls to $3 to fund better roads and transit". reason #1 is: "First, it's not regional." One paragraph down this is clarified: "The seven Bay counties voting on Regional Measure 2 are not a region. Check your dictionary. Check the Bay's growing killer commute. It's now from 20 counties and counting..." there are two parts to the writer's complaint. one is not linguistic: he wants public transportation benefits to cover the whole 20-county region, not merely the 9-county "metropolitan area" (San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Marin, Napa, Alameda, Contra Costa, Solano; please don't complain to *me* about 7 vs. 9 [oh hell, Santa Cruz and Napa are out of it, because they don't have any of the relevant bridges]). well, i want a staff of intelligent, linguistically trained, sexy, devoted houseboys, but i really don't think that's going to happen. on the other hand, this is a discussable question: whether the costs and benefits should cover 5, 7, 9, 15, or 20 counties (all the way south to San Luis Obispo!). the linguistic part has to do with what constitutes a *region*. there is a technical distinction between a (metropolitan) area, as defined by the u.s. census, and a region, as in the "regions of the u.s." (new england, middle atlantic, etc.), and this distinction is reflected (in very diluted fashion) in some dictionaries. the AHD4, for example, gives "area" as a synonym of "region", but says that "regional" refers to a "*large* geographical region" (emphasis mine). still, it's incredibly silly to be telling your neighbors to go look at dictionary definitions to decide whether they'll vote for a ballot measure -- even if the dictionaries do validate the technical distinction in question, however delicately. this is a kind of verbal magic. surely someone is collecting cases where people said that some substantive question could be decided just by looking things up in "the dictionary"... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), don't call me shirley From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Feb 29 02:59:40 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:59:40 -0600 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: For what it's worth, when I was a city cop (Decatur, Ill., 69-74) one "droppped a dime" on someone by making an anonynmous call from a pay phone (for a dime) to the local PD. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 03:55:44 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:55:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "shoot the breeze" 1937 Message-ID: OED has 1941. 10 June, 1937. _Indiana(PA)Weekly Messenger_ 10/1 [A fictional detective story] "Wait a minute, Dad," I said. "I'm no cop. I just wanted to shoot the breeze with you." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 04:47:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:47:48 EST Subject: Pot Sticker (1968); READEX Early American Newspapers Message-ID: You do parking tickets all week and get one day to do research in the New York Public Library, and it's certainly a bit of heaven. You try to sleep late, but David Shulman calls you in the morning to be at the library. He's got "good news." It turns out ot be more poems. You request some books to research "pot sticker." But the books aren't at the library. They're "off-site." And the library is closed Sunday, and closed Monday, and it'll be ordered on Tuesday--well, maybe late next week you can actually get a book. So then you go to the microfilm room, and you order a microfilm, and one hour later they bring you the wrong microfilm. And it's too late to re-order it. So then, after researching "pot sticker," you're in the mood for Chinese, so you go to your old cheap Chinese restaurant, Garden Won Chinese Noodle Shop, 12 East 42nd Street. But it's closed. A sign in the window reads: CLOSED BY ORDER OF THE COMMISSIONER OF HEALTH AND MENTAL HYGIENE. Life in New York City is just great. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- READEX "EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS" http://www.readex.com/scholarl/earlamnp.html I checked this a few days ago. "Early American Newspapers (1690-1876) Digital Edition" was "Coming first quarter 2004." This is very important coverage for this period of American history. I'd like to check for "cocktail," "eggnog," "fish house punch," "bakery," "johnnycake," "election cake," and much more. First quarter of 2004 means January-February-March. A few days? I checked the Readex site again. It now says "Coming second quarter 2004." That means April-May-June. Which probably means July. Which probably means the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK won't be able to use it. Oh well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- POT STICKER The Whole Foods Market at the new Time Warner Center here in NYC sells "Ling Ling Pot Stickers," but it contains no panda meat. NYU has a good selection of Chinese cookbooks thanks to the Cecily Brownstone acquisition of its Fales Collection, but that's not open weekends or weeknights. For now, this will have to do. Again, Merriam-Webster has 1975. HOW TO COOK AND EAT IN CHINESE by Buwei Yang Chao London: Faber and Faber 2nd revised edition 1968 (The first edition is 1945. I didn't have time to check that--ed.) Pg. 253: 20.6B. POT STICKERS Pot Stickers, a favourite Northern food, are simply _Chiao-tzu_ grilled on a griller. The skins and the stuffing are made in the same way. As a variation, the skin may be made by rolling the dough into large sheets aboit 1/16 inch thick, or thinner, and cutting out round pieces with a cookie cutter about 3 1/2 inches in diameter. Then wrap in the stuffing as in Fig. 7. With a little stretching you form _chiao-tzu_ about 3/4-in. wide by 4-in. long. Preheat your electric griller to 350 deg. F, with 2 tb.-sp. salad oil over it. Lay the formed _chiao-tzu_ in close contact with each other, so that with a 9-by-14-in. griller you can grill about 30 pot stickets at one time. Grill for 5 min., with lid on. Open the lid and brush the tops with a wetted pastry brush and grill 5 min. more. Turn up temperature to 400 deg. F for an additional 10 min. or until bottoms are brown and slightly crisp. Serve by transferring the pot stickers with a spatula. If it is desired to serve in the griller, turn off heat before the 10 min. is up, since the griller will retain the heat for a few minutes. Though pot stickers are so called, they should not stick so hard to the bottom as to break when spaded up. If they do more oil should have been used to start with. Instead of an electric griller, a large grilling pan over the kitchen fire will also do, in which case you will have to experiment with your stove to have the time and temperatures right. Pot stickers are a typical Northern-style food and are found (Pg. 254--ed.) in some Northern Chinese restaurants in New York and San Francisco under the name of _kuo-t'ier_, which means literally "pot sticker." Leftovers can be regrilled, especially if underdone the first time. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Feb 29 05:01:51 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:01:51 -0800 Subject: Fwd: New Word Message-ID: Just got this from a friend. And was Jesse the one in the interview? Rima >I heard the following, for the very first time last night. frienemy, >frienemies Friends who act more like enemies. > >Heard on the ET (Entertainment Television) Network in reference to the >closing of the very popular show 'Sex In The City', and it refers to how >the 4 women characters get along. > >I once saw an interview with the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary >and one of the guys said that America adds one new word to the English >language per DAY! > >So feel free to pass this one on to them. > >Cordially, > >Ken Thomson >San Francisco, CA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 05:34:36 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:34:36 EST Subject: Sub-Gum (1903); Frienemy (1993) Message-ID: SUB-GUM More Chinese food. OED and Merriam-Webster have 1911 for "sub-gum," from "_sahp-gam_, lit. assorted, mixed." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Northwestern - 5/4/1903 ...lobster salad, and cranberry sauce, egg SUBGUM, chicken chop suey. kisses and cream.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Monday, May 04, 1903 1016 k Pg. 1, col. 6: Two expert Chinese cooks prepared the Chinese dishes on the bill of fare. The menu included the following appetizing dishes: Bird's nest soup, lobster salad, turkey and cranberry sauce, egg sub-gum, chicken chop suey, kisses and cream, banana jelly, Chinese fruit, LiChee, Gamgot. Daily Northwestern - 12/6/1905 ...younp birds nest soup, steamed duck, whole, SUB GUM fish, ting Inn chicken, long ha. don.....guests to the number of twenty at a CHINESE dinner of ten courses Tuesday evening.....of the dinner in a manner consistent with CHINESE breeding, that they might be able to.....and carefully prepared. Between courses CHINESE wines and liquors which Mr. Toy had.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, December 06, 1905 638 k Pg. 3, col. 3: Among the delicacies were kal, young birds nest soup, steamed duck, whole sub gum fish, ting lan chicken, long ha don lobster, turkey, Chinese style, and squab, fried in peanut oil. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FRIENEMY It's not in the ADS-L archives, but I've heard it before and I thought that I had posted it. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: What is this #? ... elsewhere that it will be Ed Harris in Needful Things He was played by a guy with the last name Rooker, who also played Stallone's "frienemy" in Cliffhanger. ... alt.horror - Aug 2, 1993 by Kevin Bourrillion - View Thread (8 articles) From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Feb 29 09:46:52 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:46:52 -0000 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <190.2664a21a.2d726447@aol.com> Message-ID: > About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets > (whatever they are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to > spend a shillng" meant "I have to go to the bathroom". Inflation in Britain may have been bad around that period, but not so bad as that; so far as I know, "spend a shilling" has never had the sense described, not least because it would have been considered an outrageous sum to charge for a bog-standard public convenience in the days when we had shillings. In my childhood (1940s) and for long afterwards, it cost one (old) penny to use a cubicle in a public loo, hence the expression "to spend a penny" (though, of course, "not spend a penny" and related phrases have a very much longer life in the sense of disinclination to spend money on non-essentials). It was not solely declimalisation (in 1971) that did for the saying but also the widespread move by local authorities to remove charges for public toilets, one reversed more recently through the introduction of superloos, which usually charge either 10p or 20p (in old money that's two shillings or four shillings, which is why people of my generation look askance at the cost and try to avoid them). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 29 12:54:06 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:54:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: New Word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 09:01:51PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > Just got this from a friend. And was Jesse the one in the interview? Rima This is not something I would have said, although it's not inaccurate. JTS > >I heard the following, for the very first time last night. frienemy, > >frienemies Friends who act more like enemies. > > > >Heard on the ET (Entertainment Television) Network in reference to the > >closing of the very popular show 'Sex In The City', and it refers to how > >the 4 women characters get along. > > > >I once saw an interview with the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary > >and one of the guys said that America adds one new word to the English > >language per DAY! > > > >So feel free to pass this one on to them. > > > >Cordially, > > > >Ken Thomson > >San Francisco, CA From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Feb 29 15:01:06 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:01:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: New Word Message-ID: The notion of "one new word per day" from American English is, in my humble opinion, a rather interesting if nebulous notion, especially in an election year. First of all, what's "new." Secondly, what constitutes "adding"? How many times must it be used and over what period of time before a neologism is "established"? I believe Robert Burchfield once opined that there were 800 new words per year. I am confident that "one-a-day" and 800 (or about two per day) are very conservative guesstimates, when one takes into consideration all the technical fields from boating to astrophysics. Regards, David Barnhart P.S. For flames use the following address: barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 17:34:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" Message-ID: This was (re)found while thinking about Gerald Cohen's forthcoming article on "Spiggoty=spic/spik" and a pig-Latin article I'm preparing for StraightDope. >From the OED, under "nix" -- 1866 CAPT. FLACK Prairie Hunter (1879) xxi. 98 When 'Nix-forstay' (a common nickname for the Germans in the far south-west) returned..he proceeded to rake the fire for his supper. SC From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 17:57:47 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:57:47 -0500 Subject: Clerk / clark etc Message-ID: Someone posted: '6 years ago in Harrod's it was a pound to use the loo. Coin operated doors to a luxury men's room with attendant. If you were a shopper, rather than a tourist, the clerk (clark?) would give you a token.' The British term, for me anyway, would actually be 'attendant'. 'Clerk' is marked as American and definitely non-British usage, not only for semantic reasons (what we would call a 'clerk', someone who sits behind a desk and sells tickets of some type, isn't that far semantically from the wider semantics that I think the term has in America), but also because we spell the word 'clerk' but pronounce it /klArk/, where /A/ = low back 'a', not using a rhoticised schwa as I think most Americans do. It's especially the phonetics that make the American usage marked. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 18:10:38 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts clear? I've posted about this before, making two specific requests: 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. I think this is a fascinating and extremely useful list but the problem with people not identifying themselves or their subjects was emphasised this week when I made a cut-and-paste compilation of the thread on the origin of 'gay' for 'homosexual' and the associated lisp stereotype, to send to a friend not on this list. I had to apologise to him for not being able to attribute about half of the posts to anyone. In some cases I was personally able to guess who the sender might have been but didn't want to reify my guesses in an off-list e-mail, so I just apologised. He said that the compilation was very useful and interesting to him, but I think it would have been even better had I been able to identify all the posters and so follow people's individual threads. I would like to ask everyone, whatever their subject is, and even if they post every single day, if they would please always sign their posts. I'm aware that most people on this list are probably able to identify the frequent posters with alomst complete accuracy, but unsigned posts greatly reduce the outside utility of the list, I think, and, even for those of us on the list, it would be nice never to have to guess who had said what. Many thanks. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 18:23:34 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:23:34 EST Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: In a message dated 2/29/2004 1:11:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU writes: > What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the > fact > that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts > don't > have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. Re: Posting etiquette >From Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com) The digest version doesn't have any information on the subject lines or the senders? Can't we just correct that? Barry A. Popik From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Sun Feb 29 18:20:40 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:20:40 +0000 Subject: Clerk / clark etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:57 pm -0500 Damien Hall wrote: > It's > especially the phonetics that make the American usage marked. Hm. It's only marked in the context where it's not the norm (i.e., UK)--n'est-ce pas? Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 18:43:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:43:40 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. At least 10 people will be pissed off that I included the whole text of the original message to which I'm replying. At least 10 people will be pleased that I'm doing this. Question: WHY does one just get the digest instead of the whole list? Sam Clements(who sometimes signs posts as SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Hall" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: Posting etiquette > Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts clear? > I've posted about this before, making two specific requests: > > 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? > 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of the > post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? > > What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the fact > that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't > have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. I think this is > a fascinating and extremely useful list but the problem with people not > identifying themselves or their subjects was emphasised this week when I made a > cut-and-paste compilation of the thread on the origin of 'gay' for 'homosexual' > and the associated lisp stereotype, to send to a friend not on this list. I > had to apologise to him for not being able to attribute about half of the posts > to anyone. In some cases I was personally able to guess who the sender might > have been but didn't want to reify my guesses in an off-list e-mail, so I just > apologised. He said that the compilation was very useful and interesting to > him, but I think it would have been even better had I been able to identify all > the posters and so follow people's individual threads. > > I would like to ask everyone, whatever their subject is, and even if they post > every single day, if they would please always sign their posts. I'm aware that > most people on this list are probably able to identify the frequent posters > with alomst complete accuracy, but unsigned posts greatly reduce the outside > utility of the list, I think, and, even for those of us on the list, it would > be nice never to have to guess who had said what. > > Many thanks. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 18:53:38 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:53:38 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <1e6.1a0f714f.2d738826@aol.com> Message-ID: > The digest version doesn't have any information on the subject lines or >the senders? Can't we just correct that? It seems like the digest version should show the subject and sender and date. Maybe I'm missing something. However: the list messages are readily available on the Web, so the sender or subject of any given item should be immediately (if not perfectly conveniently) identifiable. -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Feb 29 20:04:52 2004 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:04:52 -0600 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! In-Reply-To: <5CCD3DCD-6A56-11D8-8957-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region". In Ontario (the real one, not that town south of you, Arnold), region is used frequently to refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie region, or the region of Oshawa. Last fall while at our cottage we heard a London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had happened "in the region of Cincinatti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to us (I'm from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central Indiana). Herb a small chapter in the annals of verbal magic... letter in today's (2/28/04) Palo Alto Daily News, arguing that "there are sound reasons to reject Regional Measure 2, which would hike most Bay bridge tolls to $3 to fund better roads and transit". reason #1 is: "First, it's not regional." One paragraph down this is clarified: "The seven Bay counties voting on Regional Measure 2 are not a region. Check your dictionary. Check the Bay's growing killer commute. It's now from 20 counties and counting..." there are two parts to the writer's complaint. one is not linguistic: he wants public transportation benefits to cover the whole 20-county region, not merely the 9-county "metropolitan area" (San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Marin, Napa, Alameda, Contra Costa, Solano; please don't complain to *me* about 7 vs. 9 [oh hell, Santa Cruz and Napa are out of it, because they don't have any of the relevant bridges]). well, i want a staff of intelligent, linguistically trained, sexy, devoted houseboys, but i really don't think that's going to happen. on the other hand, this is a discussable question: whether the costs and benefits should cover 5, 7, 9, 15, or 20 counties (all the way south to San Luis Obispo!). the linguistic part has to do with what constitutes a *region*. there is a technical distinction between a (metropolitan) area, as defined by the u.s. census, and a region, as in the "regions of the u.s." (new england, middle atlantic, etc.), and this distinction is reflected (in very diluted fashion) in some dictionaries. the AHD4, for example, gives "area" as a synonym of "region", but says that "regional" refers to a "*large* geographical region" (emphasis mine). still, it's incredibly silly to be telling your neighbors to go look at dictionary definitions to decide whether they'll vote for a ballot measure -- even if the dictionaries do validate the technical distinction in question, however delicately. this is a kind of verbal magic. surely someone is collecting cases where people said that some substantive question could be decided just by looking things up in "the dictionary"... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), don't call me shirley From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 20:08:17 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:08:17 -0500 Subject: meaning of Shakespeare line-'ungnem' Message-ID: I could always muddle this out, but when I have a scholarly community, and up against a deadline, I opt for easy. OED cites under 'Latin' , specifically bad Latin, dog Latin, etc. 1588 Love's Labors Lost, V. i. 83 "Oh I smell False Latine, 'dunghel' for 'ungnem.' I assume 'dunghel'= dung hill What does 'ungnem' mean? Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 20:35:59 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:59 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" In-Reply-To: <000801c3feea$3d417c10$2523a618@sam> Message-ID: > From the OED, under "nix" -- > > 1866 CAPT. FLACK Prairie Hunter (1879) xxi. 98 When 'Nix-forstay' (a > common nickname for the Germans in the far south-west) returned..he > proceeded to rake the fire for his supper. "Spigotty" is English, I suppose, i.e., "spik-a-de" = "speak the" ... for something like "I [don't] speak the English". But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands nothing"? Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of German? Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + "forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910: http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ] [Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ... but not to me.] -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 20:59:22 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:59:22 -0500 Subject: meaning of Shakespeare line-'ungnem' In-Reply-To: <000801c3feff$c58ec6d0$2523a618@sam> Message-ID: >OED cites under 'Latin' , specifically bad Latin, dog Latin, etc. > > 1588 Love's Labors Lost, V. i. 83 "Oh I smell False Latine, 'dunghel' > for 'ungnem.' > >I assume 'dunghel'= dung hill > >What does 'ungnem' mean? Looks like German "angenehm" = "pleasant". Just kidding. It's a typo. for "unguem", used in the Latin expression "ad unguem" = "perfect", from "unguis" = "fingernail". In the passage, somebody has used "ad dunghel" for "ad unguem" ... apparently the "d" in "ad" has become attached to the erroneous "unghel" to make "dunghel". Maybe it's meant to = "dunghill" for a joke? Maybe a Shakespeare concordance or some such book would explain it. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 29 21:17:29 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:47 AM -0500 2/28/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Barry sez: actually it's Larry who sez this > >> "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in >> Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who >> gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or >> his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make >> like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a >> tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an >> anachronism, given the above date. > >My recollection of the movie has the big, dumb leader of the gang of >bullies saying it, Biff, and I think it may have been himself as an old man who corrected him(self). That time travel sure is hard on pronouns. Larry From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 23:11:09 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:11:09 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit Message-ID: Doug Wilson quotes: > Recorded by A. W. Read, 1928: a non-mercenary version: > > Here I sit all broken hearted > Came to shit and only farted As I learned it, except for the "all". When I was an undergrad in the Classics Dep't of CCNY, one professor (Robert Hennion) whiled away his straphanging time by classicizing such items. This is the only one I recall: Hic jaceo, cor meum peredi. Pecunia impensa modo pepedi. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 02:01:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:01:54 -0500 Subject: Sambuca (1963); Cajun Martini (1982); Champagne Cruise (1959) Message-ID: Some food and drink items. I was going through some San Francisco magazines today. I have one freaking day all week, travel across town to NYU, and it appears that ProQuest is going down for maintenance. I've been staring at blank screens for 15 minutes...Hey ProQuest! How about adding new content in 2004?? Newspaperarchive.com can't be read on my home computer (where I am the "Addams County Historical Society") or on the Macs here at NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- SAMBUCA OED has 1971 for "An Italian liqueur resembling anisette." I remembered that I forgot to do this one. "Sambuca may be the world's most misunderstood liqueur," wrote William Grimes in EQUIRE, September 1987, pg. 54, col. 1. Grimes attributes the popularity to the firm of Molinari in 1959. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... But Melina Is; ... But Melina Is By REX REED. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 30, 1967. p. 111 (2 pages) Pg. 7: Melina takes her shoes off and sips sambuca with espresso coffee beans in it. A Pie Guy and 2 Syrup Men By JEAN HEWITT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1967. p. 36 (1 page): Another concentrated flavor that is compounded on the on the premises is sambuca, an anise flavoring that is a favorite addition to coffee. It can be used in baking, too. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SAMBUCA ROMANA Goods and Services IC 033. US 049. G & S: LIQUEURS. FIRST USE: 19620507. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19631219 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 070902 070905 Serial Number 72221159 Filing Date June 15, 1965 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 1, 1966 Registration Number 0826998 Registration Date April 4, 1967 Owner (REGISTRANT) DITTA PACE-GIPSA-GIACOMO PACE SOCIETA IN ACCOMANDITA SEMPLICE PARTNERSHIP ITALY 10, PIAZZA SAN MARCO ROME ITALY (LAST LISTED OWNER) INDIVINED, B.V. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF NETHERLANDS ARCHANGELKADE 29, 1013 BE AMSTERDAM NETHERLANDS Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record WEISS DAWID FROSS ZELNICK & LEHRMAN Disclaimer APPLICANT, WITHOUT WAIVING ITS COMMON LAW RIGHTS, DISCLAIMS THE WORDS "SAMBUCA ROMANA" APART FROM THE MARK AS A WHOLE. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19870404 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE --------------------------------------------------------------- CAJUN MARTINI There are 622 Google hits for this no-longer-regional drink. April 1987, ESQUIRE, pg. 106, col. 1: _LOUISIANA LIGHTNIN'_ _The martini for many a Cajun_ (...) Here's the formula. Pour a fifth of your favorite gin or vodka and a little dry vermouth into a large jug. Add two or three fresh jalapeno peppers (sliced in half lengthwise, seeded, and deveined) and a single red chili pepper (no more, because the heat/flavor ratio of red chilis isn't as favorable as with jalapenos). Let sit in the refrigerator for two days, then remove the peppers, and taste--on the rocks, in an old-fashioned glass, no garnish. If the result isn't hot enough, put the peppers back in. If too hot, add a little gin or vodka. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) FLYING FISH; FROM THE GRAND OLD TO GRAND NEW, HERE IS WHAT'S BEING SERVED IN AMERICA'S SEAFOOD RESTAURANTS BY PHYLLIS C. RICHMAN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 7, 1982. p. SM12 (12 pages) (Print is too small to be read--ed.) Food Notes Marian Burros. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1983. p. C9 (1 page): Mr. Prudhomme, who has elevated Cajun cooking to a high art in his tiny French Quarter restaurant, has set up 20 of his staff in the Old Waldorf, a former nightclub in San Francisco's Embarcadero Center, and is offering his specialties--Cajun martinis made with hot peppers instead of olives, blackened redfish seared very quickly over high heat, crawfish and sweet potato-pecan pie. Tradition at the Table; A selection of New Orleans restaurants where Creole and Cajun creations are savored By FRED FERRETTI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 26, 1984. p. XX15 (2 pages) Display Ad 289 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1984. p. BR20 (1 page) New Orleans Chef Takes On New York; New Orleans Chef Takes On New York By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 24, 1985. p. C1 (2 pages) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark CHEF PAUL PRUDHOMME'S ORIGINAL K-PAUL'S CAJUN MARTINI "TOTALLY HOT." LOUISIANA KITCHEN Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 033. US 049. G & S: PREPARED ALCOHOLIC COCKTAIL. FIRST USE: 19860502. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860502 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Design Search Code 020101 020120 020132 060703 260925 Serial Number 73628566 Filing Date November 4, 1986 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition August 2, 1988 Registration Number 1538374 Registration Date May 9, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) PRUDHOMME, PAUL INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 406 CHARTRES STREET NEW ORLEANS LOUISIANA 70130 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ARLANA S. COHEN Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "ORIGINAL" AND "CAJUN MARTINI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark THE LINING SHOWN IN THE MARK ON THE DRAWING IS A FEATURE OF THE MARK AND DOES NOT INDICATE COLOR. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Other Data THE PORTRAIT SHOWN IN THE MARK IS THE LIKENESS OF "PAUL PRUDHOMME", A LIVING INDIVIDUAL, WHOSE CONSENT IS OF RECORD. Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1995 --------------------------------------------------------------- CHAMPAGNE CRUISE "Champagne cruise" is not in OED. There are 1,980 Google hits. I had one in Africa--between those stops at gas stations. May 1964, SAN FRANCISCO, pg. 29, col. 3: _CHAMPAGNE CRUISE_ _Special note to San Franciscans who have been perusing these problems common to outlanders with an understandable smugness:_ You can enjoy an outgrowth of the new Tiburon ferry services every Thursday evening--Spring, Summer, and Fall--at 6:30. That's when San Franciscans are invited aboard at Fisherman's Wharf for a "Champagne Cruise" across starlit waters to Tiburon. Once there, you repair to a local wine cellar whose proprietors make free with red, white, and pink samples. (...) The boat trip, the bubbly, the dinner are all included in the $7.50 ticket. ($7.50? This "outlander" will take it!--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 194 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 29, 1959. p. X40 (1 page) (Somewhere here. There are also 1961 ads--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- SPANAKOPETA "Spanakopeta" is not in the OED? Greece? No one from the OED has every heard of Greece? SPANAKOPITA--13,000 Google hits SPANAKOPETA--291 Google hits August 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Dining In" by Ingrid Wilmot, pg. 54: Col. 1: Over coffee and some delicious _Karidopeta_ (Greek Walnut cake), Mrs. Christopher told how, as a young bride, she would phone her mother for step by step directions on preparing dinner. Col. 2: Soupa Avgolemono Col. 2: (If you can obtain some Greek paste called _Kritharake_ or _manestra_, a rice-like grain, it is absolutely delicious and is tender in 10 minutes.) Col. 3: Greek Spinach Squares (_Spanakopeta_) (Recipe follows--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MALFATTI "Malfatti" (spinach and cheese dumplings) is not in the revised OED. There are 352 Google hits for "Malfatti" + "Spinach." May 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, restaurant listings, pg. 19, col. 3: _La Strada_--Why travel when you may enjoy a leisurely COntinental-Italian repast in a Mediterranean-like setting right here? This charming spot has a delightful romantic appeal. Be sure to try the _malfatti_, either as a side order or as your entree. --------------------------------------------------------------- TOSCANO BREAD There are 36 Google hits for "Toscano bread." Not in the OED. June 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 36, col. 2: _Cuneo's Home Style Bread_ is the perfect accompaniment for the sweet butter. Naturally any leading brand of San Francisco's sourdough or French bread will more than do--they are both justifiably famous. But my particular favorite San Francisco bread is a cross between sweet and sour French. THe proprietors of the Cuneo Bakery Co., 523 Green Street, near Grant Avenue, call it--"Cuneo's Home Style Toscano Bread." With a crisp brown crust and almost a white cake texture on the inside, the loaves come in sizes up to six ounds. --------------------------------------------------------------- COULOTTES STEAK Not in OED. (GOOGLE) http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/2001/0901cc.html Those efforts actually began back in the economically uncertain 1980s and ?90s, when consumers began looking for a quality steak ? and one that wasn?t chopped sirloin ? for less than $10.00. Flank and skirt steak were not yet fashionable on dinner menus. Blade steaks, hanger steaks and coulottes (top sirloin cap steak) were completely unheard of in the Northeast. January 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 36, col. 3: _Coulotte Steaks_...I will probably regret the inclusion of this item forever, because once the word gets around about this great steak, I expect butchers will have a long waiting list...and I'll end up on it! Luckily I have a couple months' supply in my freezer, so full speed ahead. The reason for the rarity of these fabulous steaks is that there are only two on each steer--actually they are the very last cut of the top sirloin. The name "Coulotte" I have seen used only in San Francisco--both in butcher shops and restaurants. (Vanessi's has been featuring Coulotte steaks on its menu for years.) At the butchers', they are cut in two ways: in long blocks weighing about two pounds or in smaller pieces. --------------------------------------------------------------- NUTCORN NUTCORN--506 Google hits NUT CORN--1,450 Google hits (237 with "popcorn") Not in OED. See POPPED CULTURE: A SOCIAL HISTORY OF POPCORN IN AMERICA (1999) by Andrew F. Smith. I don't remember to what extent the book had gone "nuts." December 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 24, col. 1: _NUTCORN_ is not a very unusual confection. It consists of caramel popcorn inter-mixed with assorted nuts. Most popcorn shops carry a version of it. However, although I have tried several local varieties, I have never found a shop which could even approach the quality and flavor achieved by the Nutcorn people in Beverly Hills. Fortunately they sell it by mail all over the world. In their brochure they state that they use real butter. And, of course, one taste will demonstrate the use of only the finest nuts (no peanuts). A one pound tin is $2.50 plus 75c postage west of the Mississippi and 85c east. They gift wrap and enclose your card if time is short. Otherwise send for their complete price list which includes larger sizes. Nutcorn, 9459 Charlesville Blvd., Beverly Hills is the address. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 02:54:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:54:30 -0500 Subject: Lumberjack Breakfast (1937) Message-ID: "Lumberjack breakfast" is not in OED. There are 732 Google hits. SAVEUR, January-February 2004, "Special Issue" (They do this every year--how special is that?), "The SAVEUR 100: Our favorite foods, restaurants, recipes, people, places, & things," pg. 55, col. 2: _THE IF-YOU-CAN-SEE-YOUR-PLATE-IT-AIN'T-BREAKFAST_ _BREAKFAST_ 8. NAMED FOR the big morning meals eaten by American loggers before their day's work and typically including generous portions of pancakes, sausage, eggs, bacon, toast, and potatoes (and sometimes fruit, doughnuts, and/or buttered hardtack), the LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST is served today at coffee shops and diners all over the land, usually whittles down from its Paul Bunyan-esque dimensions to suit more modest appetites. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Editors Are Losing Battle of the Bulge By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1953. p. 43 (1 page): WITHOUT FOOD for eight hours, the editors satisfied their "hidden hunger" at a Lumberjack breakfast, sponsored by Armour and Company Wednesday morning in the Gold Coast Room of the Drake Hotel. (...) What did we eat? Merely sausages, flapjacks, scrambled eggs, fried ham, fried potatoes, bacon, applesauce, rolls and coffee! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 3/1/1937 ...and interiorly strengthened by a light LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST of pork and beans, fried.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, March 01, 1937 879 k Pg. 4, col. 1: "Warmly clothed and interiorly strengthened by a light lumberjack breakfast of pork and beans, fried potatoes, pork sausages, ham and eggs, apple, pumpkin and raisin pie, doughnuts, cookies and a few cups of steaming coffee, I shouldered my gun and started." Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 6/19/1957 ...The auditors enjoyed the an naul LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST while similar BREAKFAST will be.. Walla Walla, Washington Wednesday, June 19, 1957 1034 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 8/24/1961 ...Sirloin of Beef, Roast Chicken, Pancakes LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST 7 a. m. to 11 a. m.....Mangrum of the Afro-4merican (Negro) newspaper rented an African outfit Monday.....Adults Children 4 to M 75c LUMBERJACK from Noon to 9 p. m. -Real OW.....The man asked that the newspaper be billed for the rental, Eckardt.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Thursday, August 24, 1961 764 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/17/1961 ...of Beef, Roast Chicken, Pancakes LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST 7 a.m. to 1 1 a.m. Adult 4-10, 75c.....from Noon to 9 p.m. "Real Old Fashioned LUMBERJACK Bakery" VISIT OUR GIFT SHOP.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, August 17, 1961 677 k Holland Evening Sentinel - 9/10/1964 ...community singing, a square dance and a LUMBERJACK BREAKFAST. Help Us Celebrate Our.. Holland, Michigan Thursday, September 10, 1964 581 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 03:22:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of odds-maker 1931 Message-ID: M-W has ca. 1940 OED doesn't have...but I could have missed it. Using newspaperarchive-- 9 Dec. 1931 _Coshocton(OH) Tribune and Times_ 6/1 < STORY OF MY LIFE Surprise, surprise. Yes, here it is: ProQuest Notice ProQuest is unavailable until 10:00 AM EST while we perform scheduled system maintenance. We apologize for this inconvenience and thank you for your patience. --------------------------------------------------------------- CAPONATA There are 24,400 Google hits for "caponata." OED ("Miserable on Food") does not have an entry, but there is one 1954 hit. Merriam-Webster has 1951. This is a good cite. October 1965, SAN FRANCISCO, "Discoveries" by Jack Shelton, pg. 38, col. 3: _CAPONATA_ is another wonderful product which comes in cans and is therefore always on hand for emergencies. Although Italians know it more as part of an antipasto, I serve it as an hors d'oeuvre to the delight of guests, who rarely--ifever--have tasted it before. _Caponata_ is an egg plant appetizer containing eggplant, tomato sauce, celery, capers, olives, onions, oil, sugar, vinegar and spices. It is packed in small 4 3/4 ounce cans under the Progresso label. To serve simply open a can and spoon onto melba toast or thin crackers. Sprinkle with lemon juice--an important touch to cut through the richness of the oil--and serve. There are extremely few items which can be used directly from the can to make an unusual and delicious hors d'oeuvre. For that reason I always keep several cans on hand. Although I think you'll join me in thinking _Caponata_ as a delicacy, it is not priced so, and is well below the cost of any cocktail spread. You'll find Progresso _caponata_ in almost any Italian grocery and well stocked supermarkets and gourmet shops. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark PIAZZA'S CAPONATA PERSONAL GOURMET PIZZA Translations The English translation of "PIAZZA" in the mark is "marketplace". The English translation of "CAPONATA" in the mark is "a mix of vegetables". Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: pizza. FIRST USE: 20010806. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010806 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76356237 Filing Date January 7, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 23, 2003 Owner (APPLICANT) S.A. Piazza & Associates, LLC LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY OREGON 15815 SE Piazza Avenue Clackamas OREGON 97015 Attorney of Record Dean T. Sandow Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CAPONATA" and "PERSONAL GOURMET PIZZA" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Distinctiveness Limitation Statement as to "PIAZZA'S" (MERRIAM-WEBSTER) Main Entry: ca?po?na?ta Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: k?-p-n?-t Function: noun Etymology: Italian, from Italian dialect (Sicily) capunata, sailor's dish of biscuit steeped in oil and vinegar, chopped vegetables served similarly, from Catalan caponada dry bread soaked in oil and vinegar, perhaps from cap? capon Date: 1951 : a relish of chopped eggplant and assorted vegetables (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Joplin Globe - 10/15/1948 ...GRATING CHEESE ITALIAN SWEET PEPPERS CAPONATA-EGGPLANT APPETIZER BERTOLLI-ITALIAN.. Joplin, Missouri Friday, October 15, 1948 452 k Pg. B-11: _DELICATESSEN DEPT._ NEW ITEMS RAMONA ITALIAN GRATING CHEESE ITALIAN SWEET PEPPERS CAPONATA-EGGPLANT APPETIZER BERTOLLI-ITALIAN OLIVE OIL WHITE OR RED WINE VINEGAR GARGONZOLA & PROVOLONE CHEESE BAR-B-Q SALMON OR PERCH DUTCH GARDEN PRESERVES AND JAMS BAY MULE FOR PACKAGE LIQUORS MAIN AT 27TH ST. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 03:46:11 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:46:11 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sourpuss" 1930 Message-ID: M-W and OED have the same 1937 quote. Using newspaperarchive--- 27 Oct. 1930 _The Gettysburg(PA) Times 4/3 (A syndicated column by O. O. McIntyre) <> From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 04:43:01 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:43:01 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-off-Broadway" 1959 Message-ID: M-W has 1965. OED 1967. So, did Dorothy Kilgallen invent/popularize the "off-off" term? Using newspaperarchive--- 3 March 1959 _Mansfield(OH) Newsjournal_ 15/6-7 (A syndicated column by Dorothy Kilgallen) < Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 11:43:01PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > M-W has 1965. OED 1967. > > So, did Dorothy Kilgallen invent/popularize the "off-off" term? > > Using newspaperarchive--- > > 3 March 1959 [deleted] Someone will likely point out that ProQuest has 1957 evidence for the "off-off" form, from the N.Y. Times. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 04:56:05 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:56:05 -0500 Subject: Varsity's (Atlanta) "Through the Garden" (1973) Message-ID: I re-checked this "hot dog" phrase, and the earliest seems to be Atlanta's famous Varsity--not Chicago. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Fond Du Lac Reporter - 8/25/1973 ...with cream is Joe he explained. "Two HOT DOGS with mustard, two yellow DOGS. A.....all THE way? My boys say, 'Run it THROUGH THE GARDEN.'" Gordy, who now has two.....150-foot chrome sandwich counters or drive THROUGH THE double-deck curb-service lot each.....In9 Serves Patrons Daily ATLANTA, Ga. (AP) THE man who calls himself "THE grandaddy of.. Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Saturday, August 25, 1973 630 k Pg. 13, col. 6: Generations of customers have learned the short-order jargon Gordy said his carhops (Col. 7--ed.) invented. "Coffee with cream is Joe Ree," he explained. "Two hot dogs with mustard, two yellow dogs. A hamburger all the way? My boys say, 'Run it through the garden.'" From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 05:26:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:26:40 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 Message-ID: OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 <> From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 06:05:28 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 01:05:28 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-kilter" 1929 Message-ID: M-W has 1944. OED doesn't have, but cites "out of kilter" well before this. 12 Feb. 1929 Frederick(MD) Post 4/5 <> Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 15:06:18 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:06:18 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 In-Reply-To: <200402010526.i115QkE21195@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. > > 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 Here's earlier: 1901 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Nov. SM7 (ProQuest) "Whistle off key," he replied. "It works like a charm when you are tired and want a nap. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 16:08:30 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:08:30 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), although Joyce elaborates the g-h-o-t-i there, I believe, without actually using "ghoti" per se. Anyway, here is what I believe is the earliest evidence anyone has ever found: 1938 _Christian Science Monitor_ 27 Aug. 17 (ProQuest) A foreigner who insisted that "fish" should be spelled "ghoti" explained it in this fashion: "Gh" is pronounced as in "rough," the "o" as in "women," and the "ti" as in "nation" -- so maybe he's right. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 1 16:55:01 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:55:01 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:08:30AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. > However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and > biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. > The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), ^^^^^^^^^^ ITYM "Finnegans". Jesse Sheidlower From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:30:10 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:30:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Canasta" In-Reply-To: <20040201165500.GA18542@panix.com> Message-ID: canasta (OED July 1948) 1948 _Wash. Post_ 14 May C5 (ProQuest) There is a new game, too. It is called canasta, which means basket in Spanish. A new form of Oklahoma, it is played with two packs of cards. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:45:08 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:45:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bingo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Boy, this one really slipped under the lexicographical radar screen in pre-ProQuest days. The OED and M-W have 1936, but it's all over the Washington Post for a decade before that. bingo2 (OED 1936) 1925 _Wash. Post_ 1 July 2 (ProQuest) The "Bingo" game soon became the big attraction on the grounds, drawing large crowds. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 17:57:53 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:57:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Paddleball" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paddleball (OED 1935) 1934 _L.A. Times_ 23 Jan. A9 (ProQuest) Handball, cycling, volley ball, fencing, paddle ball, swimming, badminton, squash and gymnastics are included on the program. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 1 19:16:56 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:16:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jai Alai" In-Reply-To: <200402011757.i11Hvso24839@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: jai alai (OED 1910) 1902 _N.Y. Times_ 10 June 7 (ProQuest) We sit in our box at the Fronton to see Jai Alai. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Feb 1 19:46:07 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:46:07 -0600 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" Message-ID: It would be useful if someone like Jesse working for Oxford included ITYM and such abbreviations in COD's Appendix 7 (Glossary of SMS abbreviations). BTW, what would constitute hard evidence of GBS's having used "ghoti"? HTH. FWIW. TMP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:08:30AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > "Ghoti" as a spelling of "fish" is usually attributed to G. B. Shaw. > > However, the earliest examples I have seen do not mention Shaw's name, and > > biographies of Shaw do not give any hard evidence of his having used this. > > The earliest record of the "ghoti" spelling is in Finnegan's Wake (1941), > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > ITYM "Finnegans". > > Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 1 20:21:39 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:21:39 -0500 Subject: Earliest Evidence for "Ghoti" In-Reply-To: <00ab01c3e8fc$097dd530$2ccb6395@paikeday> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 01:46:07PM -0600, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > It would be useful if someone like Jesse working for Oxford included ITYM > and such abbreviations in COD's Appendix 7 (Glossary of SMS abbreviations). AFAIK, "ITYM" is not used in SMS communications. Also, I work only for OED, I don't have anything to do with the COD. HAND, JTS From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 1 20:53:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: further minor antedating of jai alai Message-ID: The NYTimes may have possibly borrowed the story from the NY Post. 30 May 1902 _New Oxford(PA) Item_ 3/1 (A very long article on the game, otherwise called 'pelota') "THE GAME OF JAI-ALAI.[title] Only one enterprise...is really prospering greatly in Havana this season, writes a correspondent of the New York Post from Cuba." *There was nothing at the end of the article to indicate that this story was reprinted from another paper. There is also a reference to reading a description of the game in Pierre Loti's "Ramuntcho"(sp?) Sam Clements From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 1 21:14:48 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:14:48 -0600 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: This is to both ans-l and ads-l: The 1980s TV show Dukes of Hazard included a perpetually bumbling sheriff's deputy named Rosco P. Coltrane. I've recently noticed that "rosco(e)" was (perhaps still is) a cant term meaning "pistol, revolver." Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV show? There's of course also "Colt" in his last name "Coltrane." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 22:14:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:14:06 -0500 Subject: "Put Some South in Your Mouth" (1944, 1972) Message-ID: Paula Dean (a Charleston cook on the Food Network) told viewers to "put some South in your mouth." This food phrase hasn't been recorded. "South in your mouth" has 490 Google hits. Google Groups has it from about 1995, illustrating the recent popularity. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark "PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH" Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: Restaurant Services. FIRST USE: 19720713. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19720713 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73357172 Filing Date March 29, 1982 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition February 15, 1983 Registration Number 1237818 Registration Date May 10, 1983 Owner (REGISTRANT) Black; T. Jack INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Old Hickory House, Suite 9 480 E. Paces Ferry Road Atlanta GEORGIA 30305 (LAST LISTED OWNER) OLD HICKORY HOUSE PROPERTIES, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF GEORGIA 480 EAST PLACES FERRY ROAD ATLANTA GEORGIA 30305 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Julius R. Lunsford, Jr. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YO' MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19890907. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19890907 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73832178 Filing Date October 18, 1989 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) LETTUCE ENTERTAIN YOU ENTERPRISES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 5419 NORTH SHERIDAN ROAD CHICAGO ILLINOIS 60640 Attorney of Record LARRY L. SARET Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date July 3, 1990 Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GOURMET GRITS "A TOUCH OF THE SOUTH TO PUT IN YOUR MOUTH" Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: mixture of corn grits and other grains Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 74325326 Filing Date October 26, 1992 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Teate, Thomas Luten INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 3969 Marianna Rd Jacksonville FLORIDA 32217 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date August 20, 1993 Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YO' MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: sauces. FIRST USE: 19950805. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950805 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76349838 Filing Date December 19, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Brother Jimmy's BBQ, Inc. CORPORATION NEW YORK 1747 First Avenue New York NEW YORK 10128 Attorney of Record Noah Klarish Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date October 2, 2002 Word Mark WES RIBHOUSE PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Restaurant Franchising Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030709 030726 Serial Number 78129804 Filing Date May 19, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Wes' Smoked Foods International, Inc. CORPORATION RHODE ISLAND 38 Dike Street Providence RHODE ISLAND 02909 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 17, 2003 Word Mark PUT SOME SOUTH IN YOUR MOUTH BIG MAMA'S BAR-B-Q SAUCE ORIGINAL WORLD FAMOUS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Food condiments, namely barbecue sauce Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 020301 200310 240907 260721 261120 261121 261125 261313 261316 261321 Serial Number 76537146 Filing Date August 13, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) McWhorter Enterprises, Ltd. LTD LIAB CO NEVADA 2230 West Bonanza Las Vegas NEVADA 89103 Attorney of Record Robert Ryan Morishita Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) North, East, South in your mouth Levine, Al. The Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution. Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 16, 1994. p. A3 Put Some (New) South in Your Mouth Mackle, Elliott. The Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution. Atlanta, Ga.: Jun 16, 1990. p. WL29 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 5 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 27, 1944. p. 6 (1 page): _The South in your mouth_ Here's real Southern-style Buttermilk Corn Bread:... GOLDEN STATE (Buttermilk and various products--ed.) ^3^^ x. j ^^* u-^ By Paul Herron /M A^f J. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 30, 1952. p. B9 (1 page): Original recipes from old New Orleans. If you want the taste of the south in your mouth you're invited to the Jazzland, Washington's newest club at 3135 K st. nw. Jeeter's Got Himself a Factory Job By Relman Morin. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 30, 1953. p. B3 (1 page): How is the newly arrived Northerner getting along in this changing South? "You get the South in your mouth in a hurry," most of them tell you. Washington Wire; A Special Weekly Report From The Wall Street Journal's Capital Bureau Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 30, 1983. p. 1 (1 page): Alabama Sen. Heflin inserts in the Congressional Record the complete lyrics of "Put Some South in Your Mouth" by George "Goober" Lindsay. Sophistication Spices Southern Food; Sophistication in Southern Food By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1985. p. C1 (2 pages): Pg. C8: An advertisement for Dip's promises to "Put a Taste of the South in Your Mouth." (WWW.AUGUSTAARCHIVES.COM) (I haven't checked them all. This doesn't work on the MAC browser...For "South in your mouth." There were NO hits for "put some South in your mouth"--ed.) 1. Page 3 - 02/15/1862 (A) 2. Page 8 - 07/12/1909 (A) 3. Page 1 - 09/20/1967 (A) 4. Page 4 - 07/02/1955 (A) 5. Page 6 - 08/19/1998 (C) 6. Page 3 - 08/20/1989 (D) 7. Page 2 - 01/19/1947 (A) 8. Page 13 - 10/04/1995 (A) 9. Page 3 - 08/28/1914 (A) 10. Page 2 - 11/03/1903 (A) 11. Page 9 - 11/19/1911 (A) 12. Page 5 - 09/22/2000 (B) 13. Page 4 - 02/05/1944 (A) (Walter Winchell Column, in column three--ed.) At the Little Palm: "Has she a Dixie accent? She's got south in the mouth." 14. Page 3 - 08/16/1985 (-Editions-) 15. Page 8 - 03/02/1987 (-Editions-) 16. Page 8 - 11/15/1964 (A) 17. Page 3 - 09/15/1956 (A) 18. Page 1 - 08/16/1985 (A) 19. Page 10 - 03/02/1987 (A) 20. Page 2 - 04/15/1956 (A) 21. Page 7 - 07/12/1946 (A) 22. Page 8 - 12/03/1900 (A) 23. Page 1 - 11/24/1944 (A) 24. Page 1 - 09/20/1989 (B) 25. Page 3 - 06/03/1874 (A) 26. Page 2 - 03/18/1916 (A) 27. Page 10 - 12/19/1965 (B) 28. Page 2 - 09/07/1946 (A) 29. Page 1 - 08/16/1985 (-Editions-) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 22:34:21 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:34:21 -0500 Subject: Chocoholics (1949); Chocoholic (1964) Message-ID: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, has 1968 for "chocoholic." I can't open www.newspaperarchive.com on the MACs, so I went to the DELLs, and then I couldn't open up AOL...Despite yesterday's ProQuest "maintenance," it appears that the LOS ANGELES TIMES still hasn't added more content since December 15, 2003. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Chocoholics") Coshocton Tribune - 8/29/1976 ...and pour over the cake. And for the CHOCOHOLICS a chocolate zucchini cake. This.....publicize it for six to eight weeks in a newspaper or a daily law bulletin. Next step.. Coshocton, Ohio Sunday, August 29, 1976 606 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 11/29/1949 ...sure you have heard people call themselves 'CHOCOHOLICS', 'cake-aholics' or says Dr.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Chocoholic") Lethbridge Herald - 1/18/1968 ...States' immobile position on Vietnam." The newspaper France Soir, in the first French.....future. .Frances Grossehmig showing her "CHOCOHOLIC" tendencies as she polished off.....Johnson in fact slightly hardened his the newspaper said. France Soir charged Johnson.....the' government with articles in the newspaper La -Hora. The blasted the car 'in.. Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, January 18, 1968 683 k Daily Times News - 3/24/1964 ...include petitions for will power. How this "CHOCOHOLIC" needed wiH power The first three.. Burlington, North Carolina Tuesday, March 24, 1 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Feb 1 22:52:54 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:52:54 -0800 Subject: words of prey Message-ID: Palo Alto Daily News, Sunday 1 February, p. 18, police blotter listings for the city of Atherton (CA): ----------------- YESTERDAY 100 block Selby Lane, 10:15 a.m.: A man suspicious-looking man [sic] was riding around on his bike, asking for work and using "words of prey." Officers were unable to locate the man. ------------------ "words of prey"? anyone have cites on this? or insights? a google search provides 300+ pages, almost all for the Words of Prey message board (Women of Gotham + Canary.Noir.com -- comics fans) or for the Sepultura song lyrics for "Arise" (1991) ("Hungry for words of prey"), plus a few references to an Alan Malnar article on Robinson Jeffers and to some poems and plays with this title; the expression is an easy play on "birds of prey". but what did the suspicious-looking man on the bicycle say? "caw, caw", like a raven or crow? "want some ice cream, little girl/boy?", like a sexual predator. or what? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 23:21:42 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:21:42 -0500 Subject: Dashi (1955); Daikon (1873) Message-ID: Two Japanese food terms. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DASHI I had posted 1960, M-W has 1961 and OED has 1963. The 1950s LOS ANGELES TIMES probably has "dashi," BUT WE WILL NEVER KNOW. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Sukiyaki And Jempura By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1955. p. SM50 (2 pages) Second page: it is composed of soy sauce heated with dashi (a kind of stock made from dried bonito), sugar and monosodium glutamate, the vegetable protein seasoning sold here under such trade names as Accent and known in Japan as aji-no-moto. Food: From Japan; Store on the Upper West Side Offers Wide Variety of Far East Delicacies By MAYBURN KOSS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 12, 1958. p. 37 (1 page) : 1/2 cup Dashi (soup stock) or beef consomme Favorite Recipes Get Glottal Vote At Conference By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1958. p. C8 (1 page): Note: Dashi is made from sea weed or dried bonito (flaked): To 1 cup of water, add 1/4 cup bonito flakes (those may be bought at Japanese food market). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAIKON OED ("miserable on food") does not have an entry for "daikon." There are 62,900 Google hits. M-W has 1876--probably the last citation below. (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Author: Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911. Title: Japanese-English and English-Japanese dictionary. Publication date: 1873. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 3 matches in full text Pg. 206: ONE, (_daikon_), _n._ A radish. Title: The American cyclop?dia: Publication date: 1873-76. Collection: Making of America Books Search results: 1 match in full text Pg. 532: Many of these were introduced by the Dutch, and some by Com. perry. The _daikon_, an enormous radish, often 30 in. long and 4 thick, is a staple article of food in both the fresh and pickled state. The food of the people is mainly vegetables and fish. Author: Griffis, William E. Title: Inside a Japanese House Publication Info.: Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. / Volume 15, Issue 373, May 13, 1876, pp.626-628 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles Search results: 6 matches in full text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 00:11:12 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:11:12 -0500 Subject: Parslied (1916), Parsleyed (1926) & Paula (from Savannah) Message-ID: PAULA DEAN: She's from Savannah, not Charleston. I always type the wrong city. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PARSLIED, PARSLEYED You got anything for "parsleyed" or "parslied" adj. before 1928? --e-mail message, received in Mali There isn't a whole lot. I checked the AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE, MAKING OF AMERICA, GERRITSEN COLLECTION, AUGUSTA ARCHIVES, UTAH DIGITAL NEWSPAPERS, various Cornell University digital databases (women's periodicals and agricultural periodicals), and more. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 16 -- No Title Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Feb 9, 1916. p. 5 (1 page) : English Beef with Barley or Clam Chowder on Tasse (illegible--ed.) Boiled Red Snapper a la Hollandaise and Parslied Potato Feeding the Hungry at St. Elizabeths; Special Corps of Dietitians Look After Meals for 4,000 Inmates, Giving Menus With Daily Changes By JOHN J. DALY.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1926. p. SM3 (1 page) Col. 6: Sunday--Roast beef, gravy, parsleyed potatoes, string beans, bread, oleo, creamy rice pudding. Display Ad 51 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 10, 1927. p. S5 (1 page) : Parslied New Potatoes From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 00:18:54 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:18:54 -0500 Subject: Chocoholics (1949); Chocoholic (1964) In-Reply-To: <4067ADE2.37F3F25B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Berkshire Evening Eagle - 11/29/1949 > > ...sure you have heard people call themselves 'CHOCOHOLICS', > 'cake-aholics' or says Dr.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, A misdating, of course. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 00:29:41 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:29:41 -0500 Subject: words of prey In-Reply-To: <5EEDB76E-5509-11D8-9FD3-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >"words of prey"? anyone have cites on this? or insights? Unless it's a regionalism or neologism, I don't think it has any meaning as it stands. My naive guess is that it's a malapropism: he was using nasty language, maybe obscene or racial epithets, and some citizen reached deep for an appropriate description, likely "words of abuse" or so, and got it garbled, mixed with "birds of prey". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 00:32:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > show? Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name too AFAIK. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 2 00:45:53 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:45:53 -0500 Subject: words of prey Message-ID: Maybe the guy was a fan of Hitchcock. Google for a 1986 cite for "words of prey." Or, maybe, he said "words of PRAY" and was, in reality, a religious nut. From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 2 01:52:15 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:52:15 -0800 Subject: Sambuca (1963); Cajun Martini (1982); Champagne Cruise (1959) In-Reply-To: <200402010202.i11227Nu013564@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Sambuca is elderberry. Sambuca several years ago was developed into a cough syrup at Hadassah Hospital, Jerusalem, by a Turkish doctor. One can find cuogh syrup and lozenges. It works! Some say it's anti-flu, but I can't guarantee that. European women also use it as a diuretic. So it goes beyond flavoring! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 02:03:10 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:03:10 -0500 Subject: Hill of Beans (1853); Cajeta (1854); "Chocoholics" misdating Message-ID: CHOCOHOLICS: ? Yes, it's a misdating. ? I switched computers and looked at it. ? The "1949" citation is from 1983! ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HILL OF BEANS ? ? The HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG uses OED's 1863 citation. ? ? (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Article 6 -- No Title GEO KETCHUM. The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Apr 1853. Vol. 14, Iss. 4; p. 124 (2 pages) Pg. 125: ? Pear on the quince has never amounted to a hill of beans with us yet; it is doubtful whether they will, for the quince itself does poorly, and with the best care is short lived, although in some locations they are fine, but such are rare. ? WHY DO FARMER SO GENERALLY NEGLECT THEIR GARDENS? AND THE BEST MEANS OF RECTIFYING THE EVIL. HUBERT. The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Mar 1857. Vol. 18, Iss. 3; p. 88 (2 pages) Pg. 88: ? And those who will scarcely raise a hill of beans, or cucumbers, will devour with gusto the luxuries of the garden, when provided by others;... ? Art. V.--The Holy Land Anonymous. Christian Examiner (1857-1869). New York: Sep 1857. Vol. 63, Iss. 2; p. 211 (20 pages) ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAJETA ? ? This "SAVEUR 100" list is definitely quirky. ? ? #83 is the GRAND CENTRAL OYSTER BAR & RESTAURANT. ? For a long time now, its workers have been on strike. ? They are very vocal--and I've walked through Grand Central at various times. ? A huge blow-up "rat" is outside Grand Central Terminal. ? What a lovely sight for tourists to our city. ? Organized labor can get away with everything in New York. ? #61--LOX AND BAGELS. ? #100--COLD PIZZA. ? (This is "COOLEST ITALIAN-AMERICAN BREAKFAST." ? Italians should sue.) ? #85: ? "Want to know who invented the potato chip or what the Vikings ate? ? You'll find the answers at FOODTIMELINE.ORG, one of the Internet's trustiest food-history resources." ? (Actually, the thing is riddled with errors.) ? On page 73 is "Cajeta de Pina y Platano (Pineapple and Banana Dessert)": CAJETA, says (Diana--ed.) Kennedy, was the name originally given to small wooden boxes used for storing sweets but has come to mean a specific sweetmeat, a paste made of fruits, nuts, or thickened milk. ? ? There are 8,890 Google hits for "cajeta." ? "Cajeta" is not in the OED ("miserable on food"). ? ? ? (GOOGLE) http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food cajeta [kah-HAY-tah] A thick, dark syrup or paste made from caramelized sugar and milk ??? traditionally goat's milk, although cow's milk is often used. Cajeta can be found in several flavors (primarily caramel and fruit) in Latin markets. It's used in Mexico and in some South American countries primarily as a dessert by itself or as a topping for ice cream or fruit. ? ? (GOOGLE) http://www.internationalrecipesonline.com/recipes/dictionary.pl?1153 A thick, dark syrup or paste made from caramelized sugar and milk ??? traditionally goat's milk, although cow's milk is often used. Cajeta can be found in several flavors (primarily caramel and fruit) in Latin markets. It's used in Mexico and in some South American countries primarily as a dessert by itself or as a topping for ice cream or fruit. ? ? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mountain Democrat - 7/31/1996 ...a soft cheese I'd made, the other for my CAJETA. CAJETA is a sweet cheese desert.....ll also be entering a soft cheese again, my CAJETA, and my goat butter." Although.. Placerville, California ? Wednesday, July 31, 1996? 600 k? ? ? Frederick County Leader - 6/18/1999 ...are a couple worth trying at Mi Rancho. The CAJETA, or fried ice cream, is different than.. Frederick, Maryland ? Friday, June 18, 1999? 646 k? ? Chronicle Telegram - 6/4/1998 ...blackberry, Lebanese date and Mexican CAJETA. All that for just 20 cents each. At.. Elyria, Ohio ? Thursday, June 04, 1998? 659 k? ? Daily Report - 5/13/1970 ...flan de leche, salsa cruda, crepe con CAJETA, pan dulce and cafe con leche. Mrs.. Ontario, California ? Wednesday, May 13, 1970? 847 k ? ? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Mexico's Central Valley Contains Scenic Variety Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 10, 1939. p. C4 (1 page) : ? Perhaps you will set out from the village of San Miguel de Allende, perched on the mountainside surveying this great central valley, and turning southward you will travel to the thriving town of Celaya, famous for its churches, whose curiously open belfries are the signature of the great architect Tresguerras. ? here too is made the delicious "cajeta de Celaya," a milk and sugar candy that comes in little wooden boxes, dozens of which you fit into the corners of a suitcase. ? ? meet manhattan By Marilyn Hoffman. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 3, 1963. p. 10 (1 page): ? We are bursting at the seams with tortillas, enchiladas, hot tamales, avocado salads, plus numerous Continental-inspired dishes since Mexico's haute cuisine has become a deft mixture of Indian, Spanish, French and other European kitchen secrets. ? Any tourist visiting Mexico can eat very well, indeed, at prices not far below those for comparable meals in the United States. ? he can order food as hot and spicy as he can stand it, or as mild and bland as the custardy nut cajeta desserts, which are traditional here. ? Display Ad 68 -- No Title Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 30, 1969. p. 19 (1 page): We also bring Italian Dressing to the Italians. ? And Kraft Cheddar to the English and Kraft Cajeta to the Mexicans. ? ? ? (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) NOTES FROM MY KNAPSACK.; NUMBER IV. MARCH RENEWED--NANA--SENORITA--NORTHEE--SAN FERNANDO--ARBOLEDO DE LOS ANGELOS--FRIENTE DEL TAJA--A CHASE--DIALOGUE--PASSAGE OF THE ALAMOS AND SABINOS--CAPITULATION OF SANTA ROSA-TROPHIES--MINING--DRAMATIC AND DIPLOMATIC. Putnam's Monthly Magazine of American Literature, Science, and Art (1853-1857). New York: Jun 1854. Vol. VOL. III., Iss. --NO. XVIII.; p. 660 (12 pages): Pg. 665: ? The enterprising proprietor was on a trading expedition, his stock consisting of _queso_, a sort of curd cheese, and a species of preserves, somewhat resembling marmalade, which the Mexicans call _cajeta de membrillero_. There is but a slight taste of the quince preserved, and the article would hardly establish a reputation for the _artiste_. ? It seems, however, to be a choice specimen of native manufacture, and rates (financially) accordingly. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 03:28:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:28:58 -0500 Subject: Zip Sauce (from Detroit) Message-ID: "Zip sauce" is a regional American dish (Detroit). DARE?? There are 293 Google hits. I found this while looking at Phaedrus "Finder of Lost Recipes." There's nothing at all on www.newspaperarchive.com. (GOOGLE) http://beef.allrecipes.com/az/ZipSc.asp Zip Sauce Submitted by: Kim "This is the famous zip sauce that goes with steak served locally in Detroit. It really brings out the best in beef, and adds a spicy punch to the flavor." (GOOGLE) http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m012903.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" To: phaedrus Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: zip sauce > Dear Uncle P > > High end Italian restaurants in the Detroit area serve "zip sauce" with > a filet of beef. I don't know how to descibe the sauce other than it is > oily, buttery and beefy all at the same time. I understand clarified > butter is a large part of the sauce. I believe a product called Flavor > Glo is also used in the sauce, possibly as a flavor enhancer. I have > tried a copycat recipe on the beef.allrecipes.com website, but it isn't > the real thing. The sauce seems to be a closely guarded secret. > > Can you find out how they make the real thing Uncle P ? > > Dave > Sauceless in Detroit Hello Dave, I didn't have much luck. The one on beef.allrecipes is everywhere, and it claims to be like what Detoit restaurants serve. I'll take your word that it's not right. I did find another one, but it's very similar to that one. it's below. The only thing I could flind on "Flavor Glow" (Nothing at all on "Flavor Glo"), was that there's a gravy mix with that name.There is a source for it here: http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m012903.htm#3">Most Popular Sorry. Phaed (FACTIVA) The Palm wants hands of time to fly at lunch 624 words 2 June 2003 Crain's Detroit Business 21 (...) Small wonders at Small Plates If you're looking for something in between the two aforementioned options for lunch, try Small Plates on Broadway just behind the Detroit Opera House. The tapas-style menu - hence the restaurant's name - has a variety of choices. If chicken florentine is the special, order it. However, you can't go wrong with the rest of the menu, although the portabello mushroom in zip sauce is a little salty for some tastes (i.e.: mine). (...) (WWW.FREEP.COM)(DETROIT FREE PRESS, ARCHIVES) Detroit Free Press (MI) THE ZIP ADDS DASH TO FILLET Published on April 10, 1996. 976 words Article 13 of 13 found. BY SUSAN SELASKY Free Press Test Kitchen Director Twenty years ago Michael Jepko had every intention of pursuing a job as a land surveyor. That didn't happen. While Jepko was in the Army, his stepfather, Alfred Valente, opened Maria's Pizzaria, a carry-out in Detroit. So, after spending two years in the Army studying to be a surveyor, Jepko joined the family business. Jepko, 40, head chef at Ristorante di Maria in West Bloomfield (1-810-851-2502, 4:30-11 daily) was tagged two weeks ago by Patrick Roettele of the (There are 13 hits. This appears to be the best. I don't feel like paying $2.95 for this. Maybe Fred's Nexis has it?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 03:47:57 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:47:57 -0500 Subject: More "Zip Sauce," from DETROIT NEWS Message-ID: The DETROIT FREE PRESS has archives back to 1994, and there were 13 "zip sauce" hits. I just checked the DETROIT NEWS (www.detnews.com). The archives go back to 2000, but there are 16 hits. Plus, the DETROIT NEWS archives are free! http://www.detnews.com/2001/food/0125/reader/reader.htm 25 January 2001 Please help these readers in their search for recipes: Tim Kelleher of Detroit: Zip sauce like that served at the old Lelli?s restaurant. http://www.detnews.com/2003/entertainment/0310/17/e12-299792.htm 17 October 2003 Restaurant Review Old favorites are new again at Lelli's By Molly Abraham / Special to The Detroit News Lelli's of Auburn Hills 885 Opdyke Road Auburn Hills (248) 373-4440. AUBURN HILLS -- Any restaurant with a menu cover that reads "Since 1939" deserves respect. And even though Lelli's is no longer in its original Detroit location, that patchwork of rooms with butter-colored stucco walls on Woodward Avenue just north of Grand Boulevard, in its suburban reincarnation it remains a restaurant where the old values are very much in place. The waitstaff is in black tie. The curvy banquettes along the wall are plump and inviting, the white linen-covered tables nicely spaced, lights low. The classic roadhouse menu is rife with vintage items such as prosciutto with melon, chicken cacciatore, zuppa inglese and biscuit tortoni. You almost expect to see Chianti in straw-wrapped bottles. It's the kind of restaurant that's comforting in its complete lack of trendiness. And it's interesting to note that it draws a young crowd that probably never dined at the old Lelli's (which burned down on Valentine's Day in 2000), along with their elders who did. It was interesting the other evening to watch how many patrons were ordering Chateaubriand (at $42 per person) -- and that included both the young and the formerly young in the Friday night crowd. That vintage dish of beef tenderloin surrounded, in Lelli's case, by au gratin potatoes, glazed carrots and creamed spinach, is still a crowd pleaser with its tableside presentation that makes a production out of the meal. Lelli's is benefitting from the fact that many of these old dishes are new again, getting an appreciative eye from those finding the gems for the first time. The "new" Lelli's, run by the founders' son Michael, and his son and daughter, Steve and Rebecca, opened in 1996 in a free-standing building about a half mile north of the Silverdome. Its two spacious dining rooms flank a central bar, and while this may look like a place where a cigar or two could be seen, the entire restaurant is nonsmoking. Full-course dinners still begin with an antipasto tray of the Italian cold meats, salami, mortadella and capicola, sliced paper-thin and definitely the stars of the tray, along with a small chunk of mild cheese, one shrimp per person, some pepperoncini and not very choice black olives. The tray has a skimpy look, but given what is to follow for those ordering the full dinner including even the finishing touch of spumoni, skimpiness turns out to be a blessing in disguise. Next comes Lelli's minestrone, a signature dish for years, creamy and delicate rather than robust, its tomato base tinted pink with the addition of cream, and the vegetables nearly pureed. It too is a classic, made from a recipe the family has always kept a secret. A simple green salad follows, dotted with plump little garbanzo beans, in the kind of subtle, vinegar and oil dressings that outscore the sometimes overly elaborate concoctions dreamed up by contemporary chefs. Less should be more when it comes to dressing, and this one glazes but doesn't overwhelm the fresh greens. (And no, they aren't the bitter field greens, as you can probably guess.) A side dish of spaghetti with Bolognese sauce precedes the chosen entree, which for many people is going to be what the menu calls "Our famous broiled filet mignon." (THIS PARAGRAPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--ed.) It's a knockout, plump, tender but not soft, and pretty much unadorned, which is the way it should be. I never could understand smothering good beef with overpowering sauces, although the house zip sauce -- another vintage item -- is a requirement for many diners. Like the minestrone, its recipe is never divulged. But an amateur sleuth thinks it might be a mix of butter, olive oil and teriyaki seasoning. The only other accompaniment: the excellent house au gratin potatoes. Of course, there is much more to choose from than just "our famous filet." There are veals in treatments from Marsala to Tosca, all Provimi, and the long list of house-made pastas includes several versions of spaghetti with sauces ranging from meat and marinara to red and white clam; baked lasagna, fettuccine Alfredo and the most popular of all, mostacioli with palmina, a pale, creamy tomato sauce. The pasta price structure, however, is jarring. Even simple spaghetti Bolognese is $21, with several others hitting the $25 to $27 mark as part of the full dinner. (Light dinners, including just soup or salad, side dish of spaghetti or potato, are $5 to $6 less expensive). On Sundays, Lelli's trots out an admirable children's menu, which includes a 3-ounce filet for gourmands in training. It's $9.50 with all the trimmings. The Lelli family still owns the piece of land on Woodward Avenue in midtown Detroit where the original flourished for so many years, making it possible that the fourth generation could some day return to the city. After all, their former neighbors, the Detroit Lions, did. You can reach Molly Abraham at (313) 222-1475 or abraham67@ comcast.net. Jane Rayburn will return next week. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 04:25:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:25:56 -0500 Subject: Caponata (1931) (continued) Message-ID: ProQuest has this earlier. It was down when I had posted yesterday. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WOMEN ASK MAYORS ABOUT JOBLESS AID; Mrs. Harriman Queries Six on What They Are Doing for Members of Her Sex. ITALIAN DAY AT EXPOSITION Mrs. Casanova Wins Cullnary Prize at Industrial Show With Eggplant Entree, Caponata. Women Show Inventions. Shorthand Test Today. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1931. p. 2 (1 page): Yesterday was Italian Day, and Mrs. Casanova of 32 West Seventieth Street won first prize for a dish called caponata, an eggplant entree. News of Food; Specialist in Supplying Unusual Foods Once Filled Order for Kangaroo Tail Soup By JANE HOLT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 14, 1944. p. 12 (1 page): Her specialty is in filling requests for what most of us think of a luxuries--pear vinegar, tiny cocktail onions, caponata (eggplant sauce used by Italians as part of the hors d'oeuvres or antipasto). Display Ad 77 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 10, 1945. p. 23 (1 page): _Caponata Egg Plant Appetizer,_ Italian style hors d'oeuvre, unusual flavor. 4 1/2 ounces...6/85c (GIMBELS--ed.) Display Ad 109 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1945. p. 29 (1 page) Display Ad 11 -- No Title The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Dec 16, 1955. p. 12 (1 page) (Progresso CAPONATA--ed.) Viva Antipasto! Italian Specialty Is Tempting Treat!; ANTIPASTI ASSORTITI BURRI VARIATI PER ANTIPASTI CAPONATA ALLA SICILIANA Add Latin Lilt to Menus PEPERONI E OLIVE ALLA SICILIANA ANTIPASTO NAPOLETANO OLIVES SICILIAN STYLE GAMBERETTI CON SPEZIE CHEESE BALLS, SORRENTO STYLE STUFFED FRESH FIGS By Elinor Lee. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1964. p. C1 (2 pages) From thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 2 04:47:10 2004 From: thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Ray) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:47:10 -0600 Subject: Remove me from the list Message-ID: Justin Ray Romans 5:8 Cell: 205-242-4679 From thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 2 05:04:20 2004 From: thriller83 at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Ray) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:04:20 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Please remove me from the list Justin Ray Romans 5:8 Cell: 205-242-4679 From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 2 06:06:36 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 01:06:36 -0500 Subject: "hobo"--plausibility it derived the shout "Ho bo!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >But the plausibility of the shout "Ho bo!" remains, and that's the heart >of the matter. I think it's plausible. However I doubt that "Ho" is simply a contraction of "Hello". Plausibility is a start only. It's a very good start if there's only one plausible theory. Usually IMHO there are several plausible ones, including some which nobody has put forth. One usually would like to find material supporting one's theory; perhaps, theoretically, refutation of all competing theories would suffice in some rare cases. I suspect that if you can explain "ho-boy" = "nightman" from the 1850's then you may have a good start on "hobo". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 07:12:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:12:19 EST Subject: Antedating of "Bingo" (1923) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/1/2004 12:45:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > bingo2 (OED 1936) > > 1925 _Wash. Post_ 1 July 2 (ProQuest) The "Bingo" game > soon became the > big attraction on the grounds, drawing large crowds. Oh, all right. I thought Sam does these things. Newspaperarchive.com is not working again--the date range limit doesn't work and I get all dates for "bingo." I'm using Ancestry.com, with first name "bingo" and last name "game*" between the years 1918-1924. "BINGO" is not simple. First, the word pre-existed the game. Second, there may have been other games with the same name of "BINGO." BTW: The "1918" MOUNT PLEASANT NEWS (Iowa) stories are really from 1948. (ANCESTRY.COM) 15 August 1923, IOWA RECORDER (Greene, Iowa), pg. 1, col. 5: "This office is receiving numerous inquiries from the fair secretaries regarding the corn game, bingo, corno, etc., and for that reason it is thought advisable to issue this letter. "The above games and games of this nature are games of chance, pure and simple, and are considered gambling games under the Iowa laws. The corn game and its associates are nothing but the old "keno" game of years ago. "We have adevice from Attorney General Gibson that this game is not allowable under the laws of this state and it has already been closed at several places this season. No fair can afford to lose their state aid, so keep your midway clean. "This office recommends that you abide strictly by the Iowa laws and allow nothing but games of skill. Protect yourself and do not sell privileges for corn games, corno, bingo, etc., wheels of any kind or any other game of chance." (...) 18 January 1924, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg. 5?, col. 1: The next card party will be given on Jan. 31. A corn game, called bingo, is scheduled for next Wednesday night. 24 January 1924, APPLETON POST-CRESCENT (Appleton, Wisconsin), pg. 5, col. 2: A large crowd attended the bingo corn game given by the Loyal Order of Moose Wednesday night in Moose temple. (ADS-L ARCHIVES) (27 June 2001 post from Bapopik at aol.com) BINGO (continued) From THIS WEEK, NYHT, "Bingo!", (Pg. number cut off), col. 3: Despite its obvious derivation from lotto, which itself is a variation of the ancient Greek pastime, bingo recently has been claimed as the brainchild (Col. 4--ed.) of two Americans. Hugh J. Ward, of Hazlewood, Pittsburgh, was the first to put himself forward as the "inventor" of the game. He got the idea, he said, at the Toronto Exposition in 1916, when he saw several Canadian soldiers playing a game they called "horsey-horsey." Also similar to lotto, the soldiers' game had 109 combinations. Ward says he reduced the combinations to 75, dubbed his game bingo, and began operating it at carnivals.Several Chicago companies started making bingo sets in 1924, and in 1933, as the game began to achieve popularity, Ward wrote a book of bingo rules and published it. Directly it was copyrighted.(...)(Col. 5--ed.)The other "inventor" had better luck. A Massachusetts game manufacturer, who claimed to have popularized the game in 1933, argued that he had coined the word "beano." Taking the case into court, he won the sole right to that name, and bingo sponsors were forbidden to call their games beano unless they used his equipment. (...) (So maybe the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, you know, the publication that was digitized last summer...--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 08:45:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 03:45:27 EST Subject: "I'm from Missouri"--show the NY TIMES Message-ID: From Monday's (today's) NEW YORK TIMES" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/opinion/02DOAK.html In Missouri, Hard Soil and Straight Talk By DAVID DOAK Published: February 2, 2004 READERS' OPINIONS WASHINGTON ? A Missouri congressman once declared: "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me." More than a century later, understanding Missouri ? the state where I grew up ? begins with understanding the show-me mentality. (...) Missouri Congressman Williard Van Diver didn't coin the phrase. If he did say this, it was in 1900, not 1899. Our first citation is from 1897. Van Diver didn't even popularize "show me" in 1900, because "show me" was already popular during the 1898 Transmississippi Exposition. An 1898 song with this "I'm from Missouri-Show Me" title was published by New York songwriters years before Van Diver's alleged speech (and we don't even have a contemporary citation for it). Maybe Gerald Cohen can write a letter and set the "straight talk" straight. If it's not from "Barry Popik," it might at least have a chance to be published. From slangman at PACBELL.NET Mon Feb 2 14:34:11 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:34:11 -0800 Subject: "Shit Happens" Message-ID: Connie Eble recorded "shit happens" at page 5 of her Spring 1983 list, "UNC-CH Slang." Tom Dalzell Fred Shapiro wrote: >The earliest hit on Nexis for "shit happens" is Washington Post, 8 June >1988, referring to a bumper sticker. There is some slightly earlier >evidence on Google groups. > >Can anyone shed any other light on the early history of this expression? >Jesse, what is the earliest evidence in the HDAS files? the OED files? > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 15:29:32 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:29:32 EST Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" says > > > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > > show? > > Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name > too AFAIK. Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the Betty Boop era? There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. The town is best known for being connected to Snyder, Texas, by the grandiloquently-named "Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad". (Which in turn spawned a tall tale about the would-be robber baron Roscoe Snyder.) - Jim Landau From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Mon Feb 2 15:34:43 2004 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:34:43 -0600 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: <20040202152956.XVQA10789.sccmgwc01.mchsi.com@sccmgwc01.mchsi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:30 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? > > Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the > Betty Boop > era? That would be Bosko. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.569 / Virus Database: 360 - Release Date: 1/26/2004 From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 15:37:17 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:37:17 -0500 Subject: antedating of "off-key" 1911 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:06:18AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 1 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > > > OED has 1929. M-W has 1927. > > > > 20 Dec. 1911 _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent 4?/3 > > Here's earlier: > > 1901 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Nov. SM7 (ProQuest) "Whistle off key," he replied. > "It works like a charm when you are tired and want a nap. There's yet earlier (1899) in Cornell MOA, from the Atlantic Monthly. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 15:59:53 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:59:53 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: <18b.25019b37.2d4fc6dc@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" > says >> >> > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV >> > show? >> >> Sure, it might ... or might not. "Rosco[e]" is a routine male given name >> too AFAIK. > >Wasn't there an animated cartoon character named Roscoe, from the Betty Boop >era? > >There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road (Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. larry >The town >is best known for being connected to Snyder, Texas, by the >grandiloquently-named "Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad". >(Which in turn spawned a tall tale >about the would-be robber baron Roscoe Snyder.) > > - Jim Landau From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 16:15:09 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:15:09 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:32:23 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" >> says >> >>There is the town of Roscoe, Texas, which name dates back a ways. > >Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road >(Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept >Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. The Roscoe Diner! It was the normally stopping-off point on drives between NYC and Ithaca when I was a student at Cornell, and, for all I know, it still is. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 16:16:31 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:16:31 -0500 Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 10:59:53AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Not to be confused with Roscoe, NY, which is just down the road > (Route 17 through the Catskills) a piece from the wonderfully yclept > Fishs Eddy. I don't know what Roscoe, NY is otherwise known for. A really good diner, and some mighty fine trout fishing. Jesse Sheidlower OED From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 2 18:10:40 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: Euphemism OTY 2004: "wardrobe malfunction" In-Reply-To: <20040202161631.GA10764@panix.com> Message-ID: If anyone remembers this 11 months from now, "wardrobe malfunction" may make for a good euphemism nomination next January. -- Steve Kleinedler From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 20:12:36 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:12:36 -0500 Subject: Euphemism OTY 2004: "wardrobe malfunction" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:10 PM -0500 2/2/04, Steve Kl. wrote: >If anyone remembers this 11 months from now, "wardrobe malfunction" may >make for a good euphemism nomination next January. > >-- Steve Kleinedler Yes, that was a nice one. Myself, I think it was a promo for Peter Jackson's post-Rings epic based on the Narnia books, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe Malfunction". I hadn't realized he was planning on casting Justin and Janet as leads. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 20:40:28 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:40:28 EST Subject: "Rosco" (in "Dukes of Hazard") from cant "rosco" (pistol)? Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:14:48 -0600, Gerald Cohen writes > The 1980s TV show Dukes of Hazard included a perpetually bumbling > sheriff's deputy named Rosco P. Coltrane. I've recently noticed that "rosco(e)" > was (perhaps still is) a cant term meaning "pistol, revolver." > > Might this cant "rosco(e)" perhaps lie behind the name Rosco in the TV > show? > There's of course also "Colt" in his last name "Coltrane." No, there is no /kolt/ in /'kol tshrein/. Roscoe the coal train runs on the Roscoe, Snyder, and Pacific Railroad. Considering the obvious pastiche names in "Dukes of Hazzard" (wasn't there a "Boss Hawg"? Or am I thinking of a different show?), I seriously doubt that the show's creators went to such subtle lengths as "rosco" = pistol, although "Coltrane" conceivably could be a reference to how fast Mr. Roscoe moves. - Jim Landau From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Feb 2 20:40:53 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:40:53 -0500 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times DISCLAIMER: Since Jan. 12th I have been doing his editorial work and not allowed to do the language work in his regular secretary's absence. I therefore take no responsibility for any errors that might occur in the language column as he is "doing his own research" for the time being. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:59:44 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:59:44 -0500 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040202153547.00aedec8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward > golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk > and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? Richard Reeves, _A Ford, Not a Lincoln_ (1975), quoted Lyndon Johnson about Ford: "So dumb he can't fart and chew gum at the same time." I always thought "walk and chew gum at the same time" was a euphemism for Johnson's comment about Ford. However, a search on ProQuest brings up the following: 1970 _Wash. Post_ 24 Nov. A17 As for Mr. Nixon's assertion that much of our economic trouble is due to a cut in defense spending, one of the economists present remarked, "That's like saying we aren't smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time." Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has: 1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr. The office wit says he'll never take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't even walk and chew gum at the same time. It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably dates from before 1967. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 2 22:12:41 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:12:41 -0500 Subject: "Shit Happens" Message-ID: Westlaw is slightly earlier, with this 12/6/87 article from the St. Petersburg Times: >>The stickers that irk Banjanin are the same ones that surf shop salespeople say are most popular: "S--- Happens," a scatological sigh only recently surpassed by "How's My Driving? Call 1-800-EAT-S---" << I recall seeing the "Shit Happens" bumper stickers in Boston and Cambridge in the mid-1980s. There were other bumper stickers in the same style, the only one of which I now recall is "Take It Easy." Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, I believe these were intended to be motivational messages for those in recovery from substance abuse. Doubtless not everyone with a "Shit Happens" bumper sticker was in recovery. A 5/9/88 article from the Boston Globe provides more detail: >>MALDEN - In the Sober Camel bookstore, the unmentionables are kept behind the counter. No, not Playboy or Penthouse. Rather, bumper stickers that say, simply, "S--- happens," although the stickers spell it out. They are by far the raciest thing in inventory. They're also a big seller. For into the Sober Camel come people to whom the "S" word has indeed happened: chronic overeaters, drug and alcohol abusers and those who have been through the looking glass in other ways. The Sober Camel was opened two months ago by Kevin Doherty and Allen Gallant, recovering alcoholics and drug addicts. They started with self-help books and have expanded into greeting cards, gifts, hats, tapes and crystals, all dealing with the same issue: clean up your act. << I don't know if the proprietors of the Sober Camel designed their own bumper stickers (in which case they would have used a pre-existing catch-phrase) or obtained them from a supplier who may or may not have originated the phrase. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 6:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Shit Happens" The earliest hit on Nexis for "shit happens" is Washington Post, 8 June 1988, referring to a bumper sticker. There is some slightly earlier evidence on Google groups. Can anyone shed any other light on the early history of this expression? Jesse, what is the earliest evidence in the HDAS files? the OED files? Fred Shapiro From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Feb 2 22:17:23 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:17:23 -0800 Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum Message-ID: I don't know the origin of the phrase but I know Lyndon Johnson said it of Ford when he (Ford)was a congressman. jfoster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen E. Miller" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Query - Walk and Chew Gum > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > As I remember Ford fell down a lot, hit people in the head with wayward > golf swings, etc. and he comes to mind when I think of the phrase, "walk > and chew gum at the same time." Anybody know the origin? > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > DISCLAIMER: Since Jan. 12th I have been doing his editorial work and not > allowed to do the language work in his regular secretary's absence. I > therefore take no responsibility for any errors that might occur in the > language column as he is "doing his own research" for the time being. > From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Feb 2 22:41:24 2004 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:41:24 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <000801c3e9da$5590c840$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com> Message-ID: Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US copyeditors, etc. However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing in the corpus. Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Feb 2 23:02:52 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: Bring It On! Message-ID: There's a journalist in Toronto who has been given the unfortunate assignment of tracking down the roots of Bush's "bring 'em on," or Kerry's "bring it on." Basically, he's trying to get to the bottom of the challenge implicit in the verb. Throw in "bring it" for good measure. I've checked the usual places, but the phrase is really too common to come to any real head, and difficult to search for in the databases. I did find some sort of collocation with "challenge" or "challenged" but not with "fight." Some success, too, with "bring it baby," "bring it man," and "bring it dude." Can anyone help this fellow? Respond to the list please, and I'll send anything on to him. Thanks, Grant From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 01:57:40 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:57:40 EST Subject: "Big Apple" still not in NY TIMES Message-ID: This is beyond ludicrous. Here's a response I received today from the NEW YORK TIMES "City" section on why there can't possibly be a story (not an error-filled summary) on "the Big Apple," even after twelve years, even on the 80th anniversary, even during Black History Month. The African-American stablehands will now go unrecognized forever. Living witnesses will NEVER be found. Hey, maybe there just wasn't room after Chuck Klosterman? I want to thank my fellow American Dialect Society members William Safire and Kathleen Miller for making this tragedy happen: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Subj: big apple Date: 2/2/2004 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time From: mimoly at nytimes.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear Mr. Popik; Your recent communication with The Times about "the Big Apple'' and John J. Fitz Gerald came to my attention and thanks for reminding us about the 1924 column. But I want to say that Mr. Fitzgerald's contribution has been mentioned in The Times from time to time. One citation was in our very own City section, in the FYI column of 3/17/96 (see below). I also noticed William Safire's column of 9/17/2000. I don't think the 80th anniversary is pressing enough for our City section to mention it again. Thanks, Mijke Molyneux, staff editor, The City The Answer People Q. Does the New York Public Library still have a telephone information service, and what is most commonly asked? A. It certainly does, breathing new life into the phrase "everything you ever wanted to know about. . . ." A staff of nine librarians and research assistants field some 550 calls a day, Monday through Friday, 9 A.M. to 6 P.M., with 1,800 reference books at their fingertips -- as well as Internet access. The researchers can spend no longer than five minutes with a caller, and neither side can call back during the research process. The service won't answer crossword puzzle or contest questions, and the researchers claim to be adept at recognizing them. Oh, and by request of the Board of Education, no homework questions. The board thinks students should learn to use the library themselves. So what do New Yorkers really want to know? A lot of them ask, "Why is New York called the Big Apple?" Of the many opinions on this issue, the one the library considers most authentic goes back to the 1920's and John J. FitzGerald, a racing writer with The Morning Telegraph who overheard stable hands in New Orleans refer to a New York racecourse as "the big apple." Mr. FitzGerald used the term so often it entered the vernacular. Other questions ebb and flow in popularity with the tide of events. The service was inundated with queries for O. J. Simpson trivia during his trial -- and Harriet Shalat, the service's supervising librarian, said her staff tackled them all. In fact, there is little that stumps them, but if the answer men and women can't handle your question, they'll send you to someone who can. To reach the Telephone Reference Service of the New York Public Library, call (212) 340-0849. The Brooklyn and Queens libraries have reference services as well: in Brooklyn, (718) 780-7700; in Queens, (718) 990-0714. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- This doesn't even begin to address what I said to the Public Editor. "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated by me, alone, in the rain, as my parents were dying, back in 1997. "Big Apple Corner" has still _never_ been reported in the TIMES, although "Joey Ramone Way" has. "Big Apple Corner" honors--badly--only NYC writer John J. Fitz Gerald. New York CIty's story is, at best, half told. The mention of "Mr. Fitzgerald's (sic) contribution" and "our City section to mention it again" entirely misses the point and importance of the February 18, 1924 column. The stablehands' words in the February 18, 1924 "Around the Big Apple" column have never appeared in the TIMES. The stablehands' words (repeated again) in the December 6, 1926 "Around the Paddock" column have also never appeared in the TIMES. The "dusky" stablehands don't even have names. THAT'S THE POINT! So nothing can be printed now--why? Because on NYC Convention and Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett's death in December 1995 the TIMES wrote that "the Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? Because that was contradicted by a brief "City" section FYI blurb in March 1996--eight years ago? No! "The Big Apple" can never be printed in the TIMES because there was a short, error-filled summary at the bottom of an exceedingly long William Safire column in 2000! Wonderful work, Kathleen Miller! What a favor you did after all these years! Why should the City section run the "Big Apple" story now? Why not wait and make sure that every possible living witness is dead? Why not wait until Gerald Cohen dies? Why not wait until I die? Then the "Big Apple" story will be WONDERFUL! In 2000, Kathleen Miller told me that Safire was writing a "Big Apple column." It wasn't "a column" at all. I said then that the February 18, 1924 column must finally be printed in full. I would not have cooperated had I known that everything would be reduced to a mere eight buried, misquoted, and never-corrected words. I would not have cooperated had I known that a misquotation of my own words in 2000 would stand forever. This--after 12 years--was the final chance to honor the stablehands and New York City's history. The NEW YORK TIMES position, as I understand it from its City editor and its Public Editor, is that corrections of the past can never be made--yet those errors are now good enough to prevent the full story. ADS-er George Thompson had his "base ball" work printed immediately, in full, on a page one Sunday story? The "Big Apple" stablehands get nothing at all, ever? Barry Popik From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Tue Feb 3 02:07:17 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:07:17 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? Message-ID: Good question, Erin! There were four papers presented at the last MLA (San Diego) under the aegis of "Language and Society" about "the native speaker" as an abstraction. Native speakers are not supposed to exist in the concrete. I totally agree, as in "The Native Speaker Is Dead!" (Toronto & New York, 1985). The book is available in libraries of most universities where linguistics is taught. You have a very hard task ahead. Best wishes. TOM. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin McKean" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Erin McKean > Subject: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > copyeditors, etc. > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > in the corpus. > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Erin McKean > editor at verbatimmag.com From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Feb 3 03:11:22 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:11:22 -0500 Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal Message-ID: On 25 Jan I sent an e-mail to 30 Special Forces veterans who had served in I Corps RVN during the 1960s, principally in the middle of the decade. I got five replies (plus 8 unknown address responses). All five recalled referring to their *montagnard* troops as "yards", and all seemed familiar with the expression, but none recalled hearing "whole nine yards" in I Corps. One person reported hearing his father (a WWII vet) using the expression with *his* buddies all his life. I wrote back, and he was emphatic that he had heard his father using it before he went to Viet Nam. I'll be happy to send Stephen Goranson copies of the correspondence. Se?n Fitzpatrick The ends had better justify the means. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 3 03:24:23 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:24:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Immigrant" In-Reply-To: <200402030208.i13286Q14877@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: immigrant (OED 1792) 1789 Jedidiah Morse _The American geography_ 253 (Evans Digital Edition) Besides the Dutch and English already mentioned, there are in this state many immigrants from Scotland, Ireland, Germany, and some few from France. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 3 04:26:03 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:26:03 -0500 Subject: Bring It On! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just my casual impression, but it seems to me the usual form is "Bring him on" (of course it could be "her", "them", or even "it"). Why the form? Is the "on" like the "on" in "he does ramble on" or is it like the "on" in "on stage" or what? Maybe the "on" adds the meaning "without hesitation" or so. Like "Just go on and do it" or "Get on with it"? It doesn't have to imply a fight or opposition although it often does. ---------- 1952: <> [an opposing boxer] 1943: <<"Look at Black Moonlight! What hocks! ... Do you honestly believe ... that that caricature of yours could beat him?" / "Any day in the week ..." ... / "Then bring him on," Mr. Channing cried. "What are you waiting for?">> [an opposing race horse] 1941: <<"... Who is he? Can he do anything at all? If he can dig an honest ditch bring him on; I'm for him!" / ... / "Father! I didn't know you felt like that!">> [a prospective son-in-law] 1925: <<"I'll fight Wills; bring him on," said Dempsey.>> [an opposing boxer] 1910: <<"Widow, I'm a man with a heart. ... I can find you a second husband and warrant him true blue." / "Then bring him on," replied the widow, with a laugh.>> [a prospective bridegroom] 1884: <<"Would Sahib like to see Hindoostanee man make tricks?" / "Yes, bring him on.">> [a juggler] ---------- -- Doug Wilson From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 09:46:40 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:46:40 -0500 Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal In-Reply-To: <200402030311.i133BapG020826@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Sean Fitzpatrick, for reporting your 5 of 30 Special Forces responses. Yet the one emphatic response presents a puzzle: a pre-Vietnam phrase claim yet not heard in Vietnam? Respectfully, I doubt the phrase is pre-1960s. I would instantly change my mind should any secure pre-1960s written citation be presented; many have looked. (I think I first heard it in the mid to late 1970s in Tidewater VA.) I'm merely following the early evidence--all Vietnam related. (Including later Ft. Bragg, etc. related uses.) If anyone has an early cite besides Shepard 1967, Prof. Work (his pilot sources) 1970, Morris, SF 1972, please share it. Ought one ignore the confluence of full yards, whole yards, Montagnards, Yards, and photos of them in the 1967 book? (An early quote with 'yards [with '] spelling would be significant. Chaplain Robert L. Mole was a prolific writer, I'm learning. He went to SE Asia in July 1965. May 1966 draft on the 9 Montagnard tribes of I Corps area: It is anticipated that this material will be utilized for presentations to Units on a "need to know" basis, as commitments place them in areas where such information will have practical value. It is expected that terminology contained herein will be upgraded or revamped in accordance with the level of understanding of the hearers....The ethnic groups/tribes which are found in I Corps and discussed herein are nine in number." best, Stephen Goranson From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 10:07:46 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:07:46 -0500 Subject: ghoti Message-ID: Thanks Fred for the unsigned Christian Science Monitor citation of what a "foreigner" might think. I guess that isn't the first. I guess James Joyce didn't get it from that publication. The biography of Bernard Shaw isn't quite clear to me. Vol III, p. 501 presents GBS as worried about ridicule, regard of spelling reform as a crank subject. Yet why would the ghoti mention, as old spelling system, supposedly (though linguists today deny it, contextually), be worrying? Michael Holroyd apparently assigns it to an enthusiast. The next sentence calls James Lecky an enthusiast. So, I thought, was he the coiner? Not as far as he knows, Prof. Michael McMahon (linguist, phonetic expert, historian, and writer on Lecky) told me. The Real Professor Higgins: The Life and Career of Daniel Jones [1881-1967] by Beverley Collins and Inger Mees (1999) provides much on Shaw and Jones, but no ghoti, unless I missed it. Here, though, Jones is the expert and Shaw the linguistics rooky or enthusiast. Times of London 2 Nov 1943 p2 A Hard Spell for Fish Professor Jones on Sounds and Letters Dr. Daniel Jones...speaking on "Reform of English Spelling" astonished his audience at the college last night by suggesting the word "fish" could be spelled "ghoti"... Would Jones have used the invention of an enthusiast? Would he be quoting an earlier publication of his own? Stephen Goranson From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 3 10:32:52 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:32:52 -0600 Subject: who's a native speaker? Message-ID: Erin, If I were you I'd stick to your original criteria even for online publications since if you attempt to narrow it down you will only end up in a quibble over terminology or an academic shit fight which is even worse. The only caveat I have in terms online writing is that it is impossible to know whether an online writer meets these criteria but that would be true no matter what the criteria were. Plato is long dead as are platonic ideals. "American English" is an abstraction which does not and never has existed. Take it from an expert: If you attempt to restrict the criteria further you will inevitably get in trouble. Great project but just don't make more problems for yourself than are absolutely necessary. In other words ignore the idiots who make quibbling over terminology their raison d'etre and keep up the good work. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin McKean" To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Erin McKean > Subject: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > copyeditors, etc. > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > in the corpus. > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Erin McKean > editor at verbatimmag.com From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 3 11:54:34 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:54:34 -0500 Subject: corrections; pyramidiot (1964) Message-ID: Plato dead?! Not the real Plato :-) I misspelled the name of the distinguished Glasgow Prof., Michael K. C. MacMahon. I also never heard the "nine yards" phrase from my dear Dad, a career Navy officer, USNA '40 (d. 1960). According to a review in American Anthropologist 63 (1968) 837, Barbara Mertz, Temples, Tombs, and Hieroglyphs: The Story of Egyptology (1964) used "Pyramidiots," so it looks increasingly unlikely, despite more than one report, that Zahi Hawass (in 1964 a teenager) coined the term. best, Stephen Goranson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 3 15:26:09 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:26:09 -0600 Subject: "Bubkes" in a humorous political commentary Message-ID: A foreign word appropriately used in English can sometimes convey greater force than the corresponding English term. For example,if a writer says that something is "verboten" (strengthened further by having it appear in italics) this is intended to carry more force than merely saying "forbidden." Similarly, Spanish "nada" can be used emphatically in place of "nothing." Which brings me to an Irishman's use of Yiddish "bubkes" (= "nothing) in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Sunday, Jan. 25, 2004, p. B3/2; article title: "Is This Heaven? No, It's Stupid Iowa,", by Kevin Horrigan: "...If it was me,... I'd be flipping the channels on the TV, saying, 'Darned if I'm going to watch Stephanapolous. I gave the kid his start and now he's got his own show and what do I have? Bubkes.'" "Bubkes" doesn't really exist in English, although I've heard Judge Judy use it occasionally (clear by context to everyone in the courtroom). So Horrigan chose this foreign word over "Nothing" and even the somewhat familiar "Nada." No doubt there's a humorous overlay to his using it--appropriate in a humorous political commentary. Clearly the full stylistic range of a cultured native speaker of English includes not only high-styled speech but slang and apparently also foreign elements. Gerald Cohen From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:07:05 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:07:05 -0600 Subject: "Bubkes" in a humorous political commentary In-Reply-To: <200402031534.i13FYGX32687@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > "Bubkes" doesn't really exist in English, although I've heard > Judge Judy use it occasionally (clear by context to everyone in the > courtroom). So Horrigan chose this foreign word over "Nothing" and > even the somewhat familiar "Nada." No doubt there's a humorous overlay > to his using it--appropriate in a humorous political commentary. > > Clearly the full stylistic range of a cultured native speaker of > English includes not only high-styled speech but slang and apparently > also foreign elements. Hmm. It was used on-air as long ago as the early '60s, on the Dick Van Dyke Show; Rob had written a song with that title, which (on the show) became a minor hit. (As I recall, he had to explain the meaning of the word to Laura.) Jim Parish From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Feb 3 16:24:04 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:24:04 -0500 Subject: New Books Message-ID: Just a quick note to point out two new language-related books which have come my way and deserve more attention. In August, Dick Bailey published his biography of a thieving and murdering American philologist. "Rogue Scholar: The Sinister Life & Celebrated Death of Edward H. Rulloff" (2003. U. of Michigan Press) has that winning combination of quality scholarship and great readability. It is even dramatic, particularly in the courtroom and at the gallows. Great use of primary source material, and a realistic portrayal of another century. Paul McFedries has thanked just about everyone on this list in the preface, but there are more reasons than name-checking to take a look at his book, "Word Spy: The Word Lover's Guide to Modern Culture" (2004, Broadway Books). In it, he thematically treats new words of the last decade or two, drawing them together in a way that illustrates American preoccupations and the forward-edges of its rising culture. A solid new-word book, well-researched, with many citations, explanations, and supporting commentary. Grant From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:32:50 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:32:50 -0600 Subject: "Big Apple"; Barry Popik; NY Times; William Safire's support of the American Dialect Society Message-ID: I have no doubt that Barry will ultimately be successful in bringing recognition to the two New Orleans African-American stable-hands. In Jan. 1920 their conversation mentioning "the big apple" (NYC racetracks) was overheard by John J. Fitz Gerald, who a year later introduced this term into his turf columns. Barry's best current chance for success in this endeavor is to interest New Orleans journalists/historians/civic leaders in the subject, and in fact Barry is trying this. Let's see what develops. But if that approach doesn't pan out, I have another one, albeit one with a time horizon of a few years. Step one is for me to revise my 1991 monograph _Origin of the New York City's Nickname, "The Big Apple"_, this time with Barry as co-author and including (among other new material) his very important discoveries on the topic. These have already appeared as articles in my monograph series _Studies in Slang_, but a unified treatment of the whole subject is now called for. Step two is to interest African-American historians of either NYC or New Orleans or horseracing, or all of the above, in the topic. Perhaps a prominent African-American civic leader could also be interested. After all, a frequently heard (and justified) complaint of African-American leaders is that the contributions of their people are often overlooked in the teaching of American history/culture,and here we have Barry Popik (a Caucasian) pleading to have recognition given to two African-Americans (thus far anonymous, it is true), who contributed to the origin a feature of American speech now known around the world. Step three is to approach the media with both the revised book (the media like the unified treatment of a book) and if possible the support of an African-American historian or civic leader. February (Black History Month) might be a good time to do so. With these pieces of the puzzle in place, perhaps William Safire would be interested in once more addressing the issue. Or perhaps when he goes on vacation he might be open to the suggestion that I could be one of his fill-in writers, with the topic being "The Big Apple." Or perhaps not; journalists march to their own drummer. In any case, Safire has been one of the strongest journalistic supporters of the American Dialect Society and the work of its individual members. He and his assistants (the most recent being Kathleen Miller) have my gratitude for this interest and support of our work. I am grateful too to the other journalists who have written about Barry's work on "The Big Apple": Ed Zotti (Wall Street Journal--wonderful article), Gersh Kuntzman (NY Post--several fine articles), "Dear Abby" (published a letter of mine a few years ago giving credit to Barry for his "Big Apple" work); I hope I haven't overlooked any other important item. So, all things will come in the fullness of time--probably not sooner but certainly not later. With all good wishes all around, Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology) University of Missouri-Rolla From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 3 18:55:48 2004 From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Sylvia Swift) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:55:48 -0800 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <200402022248.i12MmccY015015@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 3 19:39:07 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:39:07 -0500 Subject: who's a native speaker? In-Reply-To: <005d01c3ea41$1dd02560$9ca0bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: Well, at the risk of being labeled one of the terminology idiots, I'll add my own expertise. After almost 25 years of teaching graduate classes composed of one-third to one-half foreign students who have learned English as a second language, I can attest to the reality of non-native English. I assume Erin is not concerned with a Chomskyan or Paikedayan (OK, Tom?) debate over "native speaker" as an idealization; she appears to be genuinely concerned about the writing ability of "real" non-native speaker/writers. This is not a matter to be ignored, since non-native "accents" do carry over into writing too--particularly in the use of articles, word order, and lexical derivations. Most of us in linguistics departments have torn our hair out many times over the writing of even seemingly sophisticated students and, dare I say it, colleagues. As to what constitutes a starting criterion for real "native speaker ability," selecting birth in the U.S. (or Britain or another "core" English-speaking country) is not always a safe assumption, though it is more likely to work than birth abroad (even to English-speaking parents). A child's parents, peer group, schooling, and the surrounding society's language uses are determinative, in various proportions. Furthermore, the age at which a non-native speaker acquires or learns English is important; most studies suggest that after the age of 7, or 10, or 14 (the age varies, but puberty is almost always the cut-off), it is virtually impossible to become native-like--in either accent, grammar, or lexicon or a combination thereof. "Near-native" is a more fluid concept, but by definition it is not "like a native." I know, Joseph Conrad wrote wonderful English, but he very probably had editorial help. So the issue really is: How much editing is Erin, or one of her assistants, willing to do (very little, I gather)? Is there a reasonable range of ability that one might insist on? Fluency in speech may not translate into writing that reflects "natural" English. Those of us in the second language teaching and learning field wrestle with these issues all the time. This ain't a "shit fight"; and for Erin, it's a matter, I assume, of including authentic American English (of any dialect) in the corpus. Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/ At 04:32 AM 2/3/2004 -0600, Page Stephens wrote: >Erin, > >If I were you I'd stick to your original criteria even for online >publications since if you attempt to narrow it down you will only end up in >a quibble over terminology or an academic shit fight which is even worse. >The only caveat I have in terms online writing is that it is impossible to >know whether an online writer meets these criteria but that would be true no >matter what the criteria were. > >Plato is long dead as are platonic ideals. "American English" is an >abstraction which does not and never has existed. Take it from an expert: If >you attempt to restrict the criteria further you will inevitably get in >trouble. > >Great project but just don't make more problems for yourself than are >absolutely necessary. > >In other words ignore the idiots who make quibbling over terminology their >raison d'etre and keep up the good work. > >Page Stephens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Erin McKean" >To: >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:41 PM >Subject: who's a native speaker? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Erin McKean > > Subject: who's a native speaker? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > Folks -- does anyone want to weigh in or point me towards sources > > about who is or who isn't a "native speaker" of American English? > > > > We're trying to hammer out guidelines for people who want to > > contribute their online writing to the American National Corpus > > project (http://americannationalcorpus.org). > > Right now, for some published authors, we're taking birth in the US > > or working/writing in the US for more than X amount of time. This > > seems to work because this published writing is heavily edited by US > > copyeditors, etc. > > > > However, the same rule seems a little lax for online, unedited > > American English, as it doesn't take into account home language or > > anything like that. We don't want to be unduly restrictive, but at > > the same time we don't want to get too much unrepresentative writing > > in the corpus. > > > > Again, this is for WRITTEN material, not spoken, which means that > > there will be, I would hope, fewer issues than with near-native > > spoken American English, even though it is very casual writing. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Erin McKean > > editor at verbatimmag.com From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Feb 3 21:08:33 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:08:33 -0800 Subject: "Big Apple" still not in NY TIMES Message-ID: >>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 02/02/04 05:57PM >>> This is beyond ludicrous. Why? Here's a response I received today from the NEW YORK TIMES "City" section on why there can't possibly be a story (not an error-filled summary) on "the Big Apple," even after twelve years, even on the 80th anniversary, even during Black History Month. The African-American stablehands will now go unrecognized forever. Living witnesses will NEVER be found. Hey, maybe there just wasn't room after Chuck Klosterman? I want to thank my fellow American Dialect Society members William Safire and Kathleen Miller for making this tragedy happen: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Subj: big apple Date: 2/2/2004 3:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time From: mimoly at nytimes.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear Mr. Popik; Your recent communication with The Times about "the Big Apple'' and John J. Fitz Gerald came to my attention and thanks for reminding us about the 1924 column. But I want to say that Mr. Fitzgerald's contribution has been mentioned in The Times from time to time. One citation was in our very own City section, in the FYI column of 3/17/96 (see below). I also noticed William Safire's column of 9/17/2000. I don't think the 80th anniversary is pressing enough for our City section to mention it again. Thanks, Mijke Molyneux, staff editor, The City The Answer People Q. Does the New York Public Library still have a telephone information service, and what is most commonly asked? A. It certainly does, breathing new life into the phrase "everything you ever wanted to know about. . . ." A staff of nine librarians and research assistants field some 550 calls a day, Monday through Friday, 9 A.M. to 6 P.M., with 1,800 reference books at their fingertips -- as well as Internet access. The researchers can spend no longer than five minutes with a caller, and neither side can call back during the research process. The service won't answer crossword puzzle or contest questions, and the researchers claim to be adept at recognizing them. Oh, and by request of the Board of Education, no homework questions. The board thinks students should learn to use the library themselves. So what do New Yorkers really want to know? A lot of them ask, "Why is New York called the Big Apple?" Of the many opinions on this issue, the one the library considers most authentic goes back to the 1920's and John J. FitzGerald, a racing writer with The Morning Telegraph who overheard stable hands in New Orleans refer to a New York racecourse as "the big apple." Mr. FitzGerald used the term so often it entered the vernacular. Other questions ebb and flow in popularity with the tide of events. The service was inundated with queries for O. J. Simpson trivia during his trial -- and Harriet Shalat, the service's supervising librarian, said her staff tackled them all. In fact, there is little that stumps them, but if the answer men and women can't handle your question, they'll send you to someone who can. To reach the Telephone Reference Service of the New York Public Library, call (212) 340-0849. The Brooklyn and Queens libraries have reference services as well: in Brooklyn, (718) 780-7700; in Queens, (718) 990-0714. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- This doesn't even begin to address what I said to the Public Editor. "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated by me, alone, in the rain, as my parents were dying, back in 1997. "Big Apple Corner" has still _never_ been reported in the TIMES, although "Joey Ramone Way" has. "Big Apple Corner" honors--badly--only NYC writer John J. Fitz Gerald. New York CIty's story is, at best, half told. The mention of "Mr. Fitzgerald's (sic) contribution" and "our City section to mention it again" entirely misses the point and importance of the February 18, 1924 column. The stablehands' words in the February 18, 1924 "Around the Big Apple" column have never appeared in the TIMES. The stablehands' words (repeated again) in the December 6, 1926 "Around the Paddock" column have also never appeared in the TIMES. The "dusky" stablehands don't even have names. THAT'S THE POINT! So nothing can be printed now--why? Because on NYC Convention and Visitors Bureau President Charles Gillett's death in December 1995 the TIMES wrote that "the Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? Because that was contradicted by a brief "City" section FYI blurb in March 1996--eight years ago? No! "The Big Apple" can never be printed in the TIMES because there was a short, error-filled summary at the bottom of an exceedingly long William Safire column in 2000! Wonderful work, Kathleen Miller! What a favor you did after all these years! Why should the City section run the "Big Apple" story now? Why not wait and make sure that every possible living witness is dead? Why not wait until Gerald Cohen dies? Why not wait until I die? Then the "Big Apple" story will be WONDERFUL! In 2000, Kathleen Miller told me that Safire was writing a "Big Apple column." It wasn't "a column" at all. I said then that the February 18, 1924 column must finally be printed in full. I would not have cooperated had I known that everything would be reduced to a mere eight buried, misquoted, and never-corrected words. I would not have cooperated had I known that a misquotation of my own words in 2000 would stand forever. This--after 12 years--was the final chance to honor the stablehands and New York City's history. The NEW YORK TIMES position, as I understand it from its City editor and its Public Editor, is that corrections of the past can never be made--yet those errors are now good enough to prevent the full story. ADS-er George Thompson had his "base ball" work printed immediately, in full, on a page one Sunday story? The "Big Apple" stablehands get nothing at all, ever? Barry Popik From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Feb 3 21:57:56 2004 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:57:56 -0500 Subject: general counsel Message-ID: Any suggestions on how to track down the first instances of use of the term "general counsel" (which is now have rank pulled upon it by "chief legal officer")? From imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK Wed Feb 4 00:06:22 2004 From: imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK (Imran Ghory) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:06:22 +0000 Subject: Biannual Message-ID: I'm sure this question must have come up before but searching the archives doesn't reveal it. Does biannual mean once every two years (as only AHD has) or twice a year (AHD,OED,MW,Websters,WordNet, CALD) ? Regards, Imran Ghory -- http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 02:22:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:22:04 EST Subject: "Enhanced Delay" Message-ID: "Enhanced delay" is here. No more boob tube? http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm CBS TO IMPLEMENT ENHANCED DELAY OF GRAMMY AWARDS Additional Measure Will Allow for Video Editing CBS announced today plans to enhance their ability to edit out any inappropriate and unexpected events from the Sunday, Feb. 8 broadcast of the "46th Annual Grammy Awards" on CBS. The enhancement will include the ability to delete both inappropriate audio and video footage from the broadcast. Using a five second delay, CBS has traditionally employed procedures that allow only for the elimination of inappropriate audio. This new enhancement will accomplish both. The precise length of the new delay has yet to be determined. The new procedure, which is being coordinated with the Recording Academy, is being put in place to safeguard against any unexpected and inappropriate content being broadcast during the awards ceremony. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 02:16:10 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:16:10 -0600 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Feb 4 02:50:52 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:50:52 -0800 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? Cheers - Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gerald Cohen Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Feb 4 02:54:12 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:54:12 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: Gerald, The word is 'new' for me, and, after reading the following postings, I'm still not sure how or when I'd use the word. Two spellings found. Searching in Google Advanced Groups, shiznick is used in a message on-- 6 FEB 1994: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22shiznick%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=CKsnww.wJ%40freenet.carleton.ca&rnum=12 26 APR 1994: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22shiznick%22&start=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=CotzC7.Hs5%40freenet.carleton.ca&rnum=38 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Schiznick is used on 10 SEP 1997: http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22schiznick%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=0D77E31E7E0DF158.C9A2BFE650373D82.E5FE2F808BEBA313%40library-proxy.airnews.net&rnum=9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Several versions of schiz, which is often used in reference to schizophrenia. One note with the Subject of "schiz pics" refers to "schism stills" in the message body. http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22schiz%22&start=90&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&selm=9epetg%242j9i%241%40newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com&rnum=94 George Cole Shippensburg University From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Feb 4 03:08:21 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:08:21 -0600 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query Message-ID: Shiznik is apparently a variant of 'shiznit' which is formed by infixing -izn- to 'shit'. The recent popularization is due to the influence of rapper Snoop Dogg fo' shizzle. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Vida J Morkunas Sent: Tue 2/3/2004 8:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? Cheers - Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gerald Cohen Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might anyone know its etymology? Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. Gerald Cohen [message I received from a former student]: >...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >means something else or has just been out there all along and we >didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 4 02:59:36 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:59:36 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You'll usually find it spelled as "shiznit." It's from the same language well as foshizzle and hizzouse. The izz infix might go back to jazz, but as far as I can take it back is the 1985 album "UTFO" by UTFO which features the song "Roxanne Roxanne" which includes several lines of this speech. http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/UTFO/Roxanne-Roxanne.html I don't be in no casino, and baby while you knizzow The izzi is the grizzeat Kizzangizzo.' [...] Then crizzi to gizzone and seen number izzone Crizzin ricking tizza of mizzac mic dizza But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. On Feb 3, 2004, at 21:16, Gerald Cohen wrote: > A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang > term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might > anyone know its etymology? From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 03:15:19 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:15:19 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect the word in question is "shiznit", most definitely a hip-hop term. Googling on shiznit gives a lot of hits, including . Vida J Morkunas wrote: >I heard it on the Old Navy ads, featuring the actress who once starred in >The Nanny. She says the word at the end of one ad (sitting at a 1950's >telephone operator station, if I remember correctly). > >These ads aired on Canadian TV before Christmas. > >I'd like to understand the origin of this word - it sounds Yiddish, but is >obviously not. Perhaps a hip-hop term? > >Cheers - Vida. >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >Gerald Cohen >Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query > >A former student just sent me an e-mail about a new teenage-slang >term I had never heard of. Is anyone else familiar with it? Might >anyone know its etymology? > > Excerpts of her message appear below my signoff. > >Gerald Cohen > >[message I received from a former student]: >>...I thought you might want to know a new word I've been hearing >>from my four teenagers and their friends. See if it's original or >>means something else or has just been out there all along and we >>didn't know it. I don't know the spelling but I'll try. It's >>scheznick, maybe schiznic or something like that. Then it's just >>shiz for short. It's pronounced like schiz/nick. This word means >>something like great-cool-fantastic. ... Anyway they use it when >>describing a teacher they like or when something they have done was >>really fun. "Hey Mom, do you know Mr. Smith? He's the schiz". I have >>heard it so much I thought you might already know about it. ... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 04:28:06 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:28:06 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <2A83981C-56BE-11D8-AC9A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 09:59:36PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > > But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. Or more recently still, Jay-Z. I think there was a bigger spike in -iz- talk after "H.O.V.A." than from any of Snoop's work, at least outside of serious rap fans. Jesse Sheidlower OED From vole at NETW.COM Wed Feb 4 04:29:36 2004 From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <200402032017656.SM01300@exprod6mo6.postini.com> Message-ID: What's interesting is, though I hadn't connected the two until I saw it written, these words are formed with a similar infix to what my grandparents and my dad always used to use in what they called "carnival language" (one of the many pig-latinesque "languages" English has accumulated). They said the carnies used to speak it to confuse and rip off customers. The infix was more like ee-iz, though. I'm sure something like this could have been developed twice by different groups of people, though it would be interesting to see if there is any connection. Joel Shaver On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:08 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Shiznik is apparently a variant of 'shiznit' which is formed by > infixing -izn- to 'shit'. The recent popularization is due to the > influence of rapper Snoop Dogg fo' shizzle. > ---------------------------- O Thou, far off and here, whole and broken, Who in necessity and in bounty wait, Whose truth is light and dark, mute though spoken By Thy wide grace show me thy narrow gate. --Wendell Berry To the Holy Spirit From davemarc at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 00:46:45 2004 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: Dyke, But Enough With the Talk, and Too Northeast Message-ID: This item might be of interest to some subscribers. It deals with the use of the word "dyke," the expression "But enough with the talk," and the expression "too Northeast." http://foliomag.com/ar/marketing_context_stupid/index.htm David From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Feb 4 05:00:56 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:00:56 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <20040204042805.GA13292@panix.com> Message-ID: When I was in NYC in September 2002, every other subway car had giant ads for some type of breath mint that prominently featured some guy saying "Fa Shizzle" (for sure) in response to some statement -- so it made its way into mainstream advertising some time ago. My friends who teach secondary school in the suburbs used to use it all the time when imitating or talking about the kids. (and usually in the phrase "Sizzle my dizzle") It was my impression that as slang it has already started to become passe, but I'm not a slang specialist, so that's just based on my perception of listening to people who are in contact with kids all day. -- Steve Kleinedler From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 07:20:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:20:06 EST Subject: Jimmies (1949); Apologies to Kathleen Miller Message-ID: JIMMIES This is a little earlier than previously posted for "jimmies" ("sprinkles" for ice cream). (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Nashua Telegraph - 4/22/1949 ...30c I Cones with JIMMIES 10c-15c j Banana ICE CREAM i Date Nut, Maple Nut, Frozen.....hour when you retire Saturday nighr. Brick ICE CREAM in the followcitv. --TONIGHT Infant.....Tel. 5120 Pearl Emmons' Beauty Shop Lanolin CREAM Oil Permanonts "Steamed in CREAM.....35c CHILDREN'S TICKETS ON SALE AT BOX OPl'ICE ONLY ARTHUR FIEDLER Tickets from.. Nashua, New Hampshire Friday, April 22, 1949 567 k 22 April 1949, NASHUA TELEGRAPH (Nashua, New Hampshire), pg. 18, col. 8: _TONIGHT at Colburn's!_ Banana Split 30c Cones with Jimmies 10s-15c Banana Ice Cream Date Nut, Maple Nut, Frozen Pudding, Popsicles and Teddy Bears. Homemade Style Candies. Colburn's, 7 Main St. Advt. Nashua Telegraph - 7/16/1949 ...Cones with JIMMIES Popsicles 5c 20 Kinds ICE CREAM 3 Kinds Sherbets Colburn's, 7 Main.....FOUNTAIN Banana Splits Fruit Drinks lOc ICE CREAM Sodas Special Sundaes 25c.. Nashua, New Hampshire Saturday, July 16, 1949 640 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- APOLOGIES TO KATHLEEN MILLER I apologize publicly to Kathleen Miller. I have learned in a private communication that the errors in WIlliam Safire's column were his alone. Safire's desire to ignore my work for eight years, then to bury it, then to insult me recently, was his alone. Kathleen Miller has also told me that she has no influence at all over the City section (that cannot possibly publish a "Big Apple" article now because of two throw-away lines published eight years ago). A lot of wrong has been done by the NEW YORK TIMES, over an incredibly long time, involving many editors, that has ruined the history of New York City forever. Kathleen Miller is not an employee of the NEW YORK TIMES and is not responsible for any of it. I have now learned her (non-) role in this 12-year-old mess, and I immediately apologize. From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Feb 4 12:26:10 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:26:10 -0500 Subject: new pamphlet collection online Message-ID: Here's a link to a collection of pamphlets that is being digitized; they're all from the 1933 World's Fair in Chicago, the "Century of Progress." A drawback for lexical research is that the texts are not searchable, but they are mostly short, and contain many delightful art deco illustrations to divert the weary word searcher. http://century.lib.uchicago.edu Orin Hargraves From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Wed Feb 4 13:00:45 2004 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:00:45 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: Call for Papers: Fall meeting of ADS at MMLA (With apologies for cross-posting.) American Dialect Society at the 46th Annual Midwest Modern Language Association Convention; November 4-7, 2004; St. Louis, Missouri; Hyatt Regency. Topic: "Language Variation and Change in the United States" Papers dealing with varieties of English or other languages spoken in the United States will be considered. Presentations may be based in traditional dialectology, or in other areas of language variation and change, including sociolinguistics, historical, anthropological, folk linguistics, language and gender, critical discourse analysis, or narratology. April 15 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Send abstracts to the meeting chair, Kathryn Remlinger, Associate Professor, Department of English, Grand Valley State University, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI 49401; tel: 616-331-3122; fax: 1-616-331-3430; remlingk at gvsu.edu. Email submissions are preferred. Membership to MMLA is $35 full and associate professors, $30 assistant professors and school teachers, $20 adjunct and part-time faculty, $15 students, retired, and unemployed. Write MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 319-335-0331. For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website, www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers", scroll down to "Associated Organizations", then to "American Dialect Society." Many thanks, Kathryn Remlinger Midwest Regional Secretary, ADS Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Grand Valley State University Allendale, MI 49401 remlingk at gvsu.edu 1-616-331-3122 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:35:52 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:35:52 -0600 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty Message-ID: Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? Gerald Cohen From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Feb 4 16:03:54 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:03:54 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 09:35 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). >But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, >fantastic"? >What am I missing here? > >Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 4 16:11:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040204105932.00b39b08@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. Absolutely. Note also the euphemisms "the nuts" and "the berries". (^_^) Also "He thinks he's hot shit", "He thinks he's King Shit", etc., meaning "He thinks well of himself". -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 16:16:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:16:51 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040204105932.00b39b08@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times cf. also "That's da bomb!", which has also been around awhile. In fact, my undergraduates sometimes include "the shit" in their New Words List, and gloss it as "the bomb" or "da bomb", which suggests that the former may be regionally restricted. larry >At 09:35 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>Many thanks for the clarification on "shiznit" (i.e., remove "izn"). >>But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, cool, >>fantastic"? >>What am I missing here? >> >>Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 18:17:01 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:17:01 -0600 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty Message-ID: I think I can answer the question that I asked this morning. >... But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, >cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? The answer is that the term for excrement was applied to drugs (See John Bassett McCleary's _Hippie Dictionary_, Berkeley: Ten Speed Press, 2002), and the presence or arrival of drugs is what must have originally been regarded as great/cool/fantastic. Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 4 18:31:56 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:31:56 -0600 Subject: Query: "da bomb" (was Re: Rap slang shiznet...) Message-ID: In "That's da bomb!" (something great/cool/fantastic) is the immediate reference to an explosive device or to the long pass in football? Gerald Cohen At 11:16 AM -0500 2/4/04, Laurence Horn wrote: >>When I was in high school in the late 80's "That's the shit!" was >>frequently used to mean "It's the greatest thing ever!" The THE is very >>important in the construction. Can't forget the THE. >> >>Kathleen E. Miller >>Research Assistant to William Safire >>The New York Times > >cf. also "That's da bomb!", which has also been around awhile. In >fact, my undergraduates sometimes include "the shit" in their New >Words List, and gloss it as "the bomb" or "da bomb", which suggests >that the former may be regionally restricted. > >larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 4 18:57:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:57:30 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool)--Query In-Reply-To: <20040204042805.GA13292@panix.com> Message-ID: >> But I would guess Snoop Dog is the more recently popularizer. > > Or more recently still, Jay-Z. I think there was a bigger > spike in -iz- talk after "H.O.V.A." than from any of Snoop's > work, at least outside of serious rap fans. You are probably right, but Snoop's album "The Last Meal" did go platinum. It has a follow-up to his 1993 song, "Who Am I (What's My Name)?" on the album "Doggystyle," called "Snoop Dogg (What's My Name, Pt. 2)", featuring a "fo' schizzle" though without "my nizzle." S-N-double-O-P D-O-double-gi-zee D-O-double-gi-zee, D-O-double-gi-zee! [...] Izzle kizzle, fo' schizzle My nizzle, what you sizzle? Fo' schizzle bizzle, ha ha The 1994 song only has a little bit of the izzness: "Nine-trizzay's the yizzear..." (I am relying on lyrics transcribed by fan pages for these quotes, though from several sources, which, while similar enough to confirm the lyrics, are different enough to hope that the lyrics weren't just copied from site to site.) Grant From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 19:55:21 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:55:21 -0500 Subject: Rap slang shiznit (great, cool)--Residual uncertainty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0600 2/4/04, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I think I can answer the question that I asked this morning. > >>... But how does the concept "excrement" come to express "great, >>cool, fantastic"? What am I missing here? > > The answer is that the term for excrement was applied to drugs (See >John Bassett McCleary's _Hippie Dictionary_, Berkeley: Ten Speed >Press, 2002), >and the presence or arrival of drugs is what must have originally >been regarded as great/cool/fantastic. > >Gerald Cohen I'm not sure this derivation is obvious. For one thing, the drug-related sense is a mass noun ("That's some great shit") and isn't necessarily positive, while "the shit" in the use we're discussing is intrinsically positive, is a count noun, and requires the article, as Kathleen Miller noted. Plus the latter is regionally or generationally restricted--I was unfamiliar with it until recently--while "shit" for 'drugs' has been widespread for ages (too bad there's no S volume for the HDAS) and represents, as far as I can tell, a context-induced narrowing of the more general mass noun "shit" for 'stuff' (as in "have one's shit together", "have a lot of shit [= possessions]", "pack up one's shit", etc.). Larry From lvonschn at WISC.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:24:48 2004 From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:24:48 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. Thanks. Luanne From lvonschn at WISC.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:28:49 2004 From: lvonschn at WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:28:49 -0600 Subject: all up in my kitchen Message-ID: Another query I received: I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? Thanks. Luanne Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English University of Wisconsin-Madison 600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall Madison WI 53706 http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Feb 4 21:35:10 2004 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:35:10 -0500 Subject: general counsel, take 2 Message-ID: Apologies for my semi-illiterate posting yesterday. I am writing an article touching on the history of the in-house legal department and am curious to know of any early citations for the title "general counsel." I know that lawyers in these jobs were at one time (mid-20th c.) referred to as "kept women" because they were (1) on company payrolls, and (2) their skills were not generally admired among corporate lawyers in law firms. I suspect that the word "general" in the job title indicates that these lawyers were generalists, weighing in on labor and employment issues, real estate matters, contracts, litigation, &tc. At large businesses with multiple subsidiaries, the GC title now sometimes does not denote the top legal job. The new title for top legal dog is "chief legal officer." In any case, any insight or advice very much appreciated. Catherine Aman Staff editor Corporate Counsel magazine. From ahartley at D.UMN.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:41:16 2004 From: ahartley at D.UMN.EDU (Alan Hartley) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:41:16 -0600 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <200402042129.i14LRWfp002663@mail.d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I *have* occasionally heard fireplug in other geographical contexts, but in Duluth, it's fire hydrant. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > Subject: fireplug > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? Alan Hartley From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 4 22:15:34 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:15:34 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20fireplug?= Message-ID: My memory is that we used them interchangeably in Iowa in the 1940s and 1950s. I've never thought about why there are two words in my head for the same thing, though introspection tells me that FIRE HYDRANT is the technically correct term and FIREPLUG is a more informal term. But, again, I have no idea why! In a message dated 2/4/04 4:30:09 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional?? If so, where?? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her).? We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:25:11 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:25:11 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Luanne, Yep, fireplug is common in southern Ohio, according to my best on-the-spot informant (our custodian). She's given me a couple more items for you to check; I'll put them in context: We swapped howdies (said hi to each other); I'll be there if I don't end over (die); and He didn't have good fetchins up (he wasn't brought up right). I asked if the last term could be used as a verb, as in You've been fetched up good, and she said no, not in her hearing. Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside the South/South Midland? Also, is the distinction between parcel/passel and mess common? As in: We picked a mess of beans (enough for supper) vs. We picked a passel of beans (enough for several meals). BTW, she pronounced 'passel' with [a], not [AE aesh]--simply r-less 'parcel', in other words. Sorry, Luanne, I'm intruding on your turf! Beverly At 03:24 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > >Thanks. > >Luanne From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:34:32 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:34:32 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <15b.2cfb603e.2d52c906@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >My memory is that we used them interchangeably in Iowa in the 1940s and >1950s. I've never thought about why there are two words in my head >for the same >thing, though introspection tells me that FIRE HYDRANT is the >technically correct >term and FIREPLUG is a more informal term. But, again, I have no idea why! > >In a message dated 2/4/04 4:30:09 PM, lvonschn at WISC.EDU writes: > > >> Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >> woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >> didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. I'm also familiar with both terms. FIRE HYDRANT is, indeed, the more usual term, for me, for the curbside dog magnet. However, it now occurs to me that FIREPLUG can be used metaphorically in ways that FIRE HYDRANT can't, in particular for a short but tenacious hockey player (in the Steve Sullivan/Theo Fleury/Brian Gionta mold). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 4 23:15:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:15:47 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I grew up in Detroit. To me "fireplug" and "[fire] hydrant" are interchangeable (except for metaphorical use). -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 00:01:23 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:01:23 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20fireplug?= Message-ID: In a message dated 2/4/04 5:35:54 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > miliar with both terms. FIRE HYDRANT is, indeed, the more > usual term, for me, for the curbside dog magnet. However, it now > occurs to me that FIREPLUG can be used metaphorically in ways that > FIRE HYDRANT can't, in particular for a short but tenacious hockey > player (in the Steve Sullivan/Theo Fleury/Brian Gionta mold). > Good point. I would not mind the nickname "Fireplug," but it strikes me that being called "Fire Hydrant" would be something of an insult (because of the semiotic role of fire hydrants with respect to dog urination). From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Feb 5 00:12:29 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:12:29 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I grew up saying fireplug, but I can't say for sure whether I picked it up from the local speech of Oklahoma City or So. California, or from my parents, who hailed from Iowa and Oklahoma/Texas respectively. I'm pretty sure it was in my speech before we moved to Oregon in the early 50s. I THINK I remember my grandmother (born in Illinois but grew up in Oklahoma) saying fireplug, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing my grandfather (who was from East Texas and talked like it) say fire hydrant, and finding it vaguely exotic, like another of his words, terrapin. At some point I must have made a gradual transition to hydrant, because I hadn't thought of plug for a long time until your message reminded me. There: all sorts of reliable data that I'm sure you can use.:) Peter --On Wednesday, February 4, 2004 3:24 PM -0600 Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Feb 5 00:22:19 2004 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:22:19 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. I know both usages and I certainly wouldn't laugh at someone who used "fireplug," but here in the San Francisco Bay area, a fire hydrant is a fire hydrant and a fireplug is more likely used to describe someone like Mary Lou Retton. Checked the San Jose Mercury News archives to see whether I was giving bum advice and found exactly ONE article in the archives using the word "fireplug" -- Skip Bayless last November describing "fireplug rookie Anthony Adams" in an article about a 49ers/Packers game. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Feb 5 01:33:57 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:33:57 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside the South/South Midland? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 02:01:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:01:11 EST Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune Message-ID: FIREPLUG What a city. They don't plow the streets in the Bronx, then they go out and issue $115 parking tickets for "traffic lane" and "double parking" and "angle parking" to every car in sight. I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LA TIMES & CHICAGO TRIBUNE May-June for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE (and only part of it) is later than I'd like it. What can you do? Subj: RE: Chicago Tribune & Los Angeles Times Date: 2/4/2004 5:42:33 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Christopher.Cowan at il.proquest.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Hello, Barry, (feel free to call me, Chris) The LATimes is now completed through 1953 and about 60% of 1954-1956. We're ahead of schedule with digitizing this archive. The Tribune has about 30 years completed; however, we are not releasing it yet and won't until the May-June timeframe. Chris Cowan Vice President, Publishing ProQuest Information & Learning 300 N. Zeeb Road Ann Arbor, MI 48106-1346 From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Feb 5 01:59:26 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:59:26 -0600 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <20040204212942.DFD7E4C11@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. A quick and dirty google on some state names and either fireplug or fire hydrant shows fireplug as being used -- but much less than fire hydrant -- in Ohio, New York State, California and Minnesota. Could it be regional within Ohio? Or more used in the kind of community this woman is from? -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 5 03:35:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:35:50 -0800 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <18c.255041e5.2d52fde7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > FIREPLUG > > ... I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." interesting. i'm significantly older than barry, but not so far in geographical origins from him. and when i was a kid (long long ago, in southeastern pennsylvania), "fireplug" was to "fire hydrant" as "car" was to "automobile" (and only "fireplug" had metaphorical extensions, to body type or penis shape, for instance). now, i think, the originally more technical-register term has pretty well covered the territory, except of course for those conventionalized metaphorical uses. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Feb 5 03:41:45 2004 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:41:45 -0500 Subject: Fireplug Message-ID: Barry has very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." Must be a generational thing. My parents, both born in Brooklyn, 1909 and 1910, used the term all the time. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 5 04:02:27 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:02:27 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin Message-ID: A question from the Straight Dope. Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. Thanks, Sam Clements From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Feb 5 04:08:04 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:08:04 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin In-Reply-To: <000a01c3eb9c$de98b080$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 11:02:27PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > A question from the Straight Dope. > > Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to > one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It > seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. No. Early 1960s is the earliest known, though I haven't re-checked newspaperarchive.com to see if it has much better. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Feb 5 05:16:08 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:16:08 -0600 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: From the India edition of Google News. The Age is an Australian paper. Nipplegate delays Oscar telecast The Age - 2 hours ago A flap over the exposure of Janet Jackson's breast hit the Oscars today when ABC television announced it would delay the live broadcast of this year's ceremony to avoid similar antics. Oscars may bleep or edit out stars behaving badly The Star Time delay sought to combat 'bad conduct' at Oscars Independent Reuters - Entertainment Weekly (subscription) - Guardian - Defy Magazine - and 14 related http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/05/1075853982528.html -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 06:35:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 01:35:14 EST Subject: Sparty; Chocolat(e)y (1915) Message-ID: SPARTY On the local news tonight was a puff piece about a "sparty"--a "spa party." The reporter mentioned the word "sparty" often, like it's a hip new word you just have to know.. Michigan State University's Spartans also turn up here...Unfortunately, there's not a neat neologism for "Super Bowl Party." SPARTY--64, 600 Google hits SPARTY MICHIGAN STATE--4,570 Google hits SPARTY PARTY--12,500 Google hits SPARTY SPA PARTY--92 Google hits SPARTY SWING PARTY--341 Google hits (GOOGLE) http://www.bizbash.com/find_resource/resourcepage.asp?resource_id=780901 Overview Sparty is an event planning division of Lexi Design Spa Consulting that creates on-location spa parties. The parties mix massage treatments with customized catering, music and gift bags. --C.G. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SPARTY OR SPARTIES (MOBILE SPA PARTIES) Goods and Services IC 044. US 100 101. G & S: SPArties or SPArty Mobile Day Spa Parties; Full service day spa services in an individual, group, or party setting; Spa services are brought on-site to a home, office or location of choice; Includes all services in a full service day-spa. FIRST USE: 20020306. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020401 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 020302 020326 180304 260113 260121 Serial Number 78328517 Filing Date November 15, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Rotella Janet Marie INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 1266 South Military Trail #561 Deerfield Beach FLORIDA 33442 Description of Mark The mark consists of Black and with reverse. It is a balck bathtub on wheels with the word Sparty or SPArties - the "SPA" are always in uppercase letters and reversed in color. It will say Mobile Spa Parties or Mobile Day Spa. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- FIRE PLUG "Fire Hydrant" is one of the most common offenses. It's also an easy ticket to write. You can't be within 15 feet of the thing. There are usually no painted lines, or the lines aren't drawn to scale. You can find an offense at every fire hydrant. But I can't even remember the last time I heard "fire plug." I could probably count the "fire plug" uses on my fingers. That's what I mean by "rare." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHOCOLAT(E)Y I've been looking around for Valentine's Day food (chocolate) terms. OED ("miserable on food") has "chocolat(e)y" from the January 1965 ECONOMIST! Merriam-Webster has 1926. Did Runkel's Cocoa coin "chocolaty"? There are many hits for the slogan, with the earliest being 1915 (below). Why is there no similar word for "vanilla" or "strawberry"? (ANCESTRY.COM) 1 October 1915, TRENTON EVENING TIMES (Trenton, NJ), pg. 2, col. 3 ad: "You know, this cocoa _does_ taste better--It's so much smoother. It's Runkel's, you say? Well, you just keep on buying it for ME--I certainly like that 'chocolaty' taste." And you know, Hubby's RIGHT. You can tell the difference at the first taste. It's a smooth, satisfying, "chocolaty" flavor that just hits the spot. Try it--today--just go to your grocer's and Say _Runkel's_ _the COCOA with that "Chocolaty" Taste_ 22 November 1926, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg. 3?, col. 4: Yum! Such a wonderful chocolatey smell rose out of the cake! (GOOGLE) http://www.collectimaniac.com/p20-802-runkel-cocoa-with-choclaty-taste-90s.htm l TC, Runkel's Famous Cocoa, 1880-90s - ... tc, runkel's famous cocoa, 1880-90s [bidders note: please enclose the "correct identification item " on all emails/?S and/or on payments to antique images.] - Antique images online item description antique (vintage) trade card / tradecard, litho, ex, 1880's-90's, "with that chocolaty taste" grading scale used; filler / good (g)/ very good (vg)/ very good (vg )/excellent (ex)/ near mint(nm) fault terms used; wof : writing on front, wob : writing on back, cw : corner wear, cb : corners bumped bidder information regular item processing fees ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT/MISC. TIME WARNER CENTER--The $1.7 billion Time Warner Center has opened at Columbus Circle in New York City. With its top-end restaurants and gourmet food stores, it will perhaps be the world's greatest food destination. I'll visit it soon. From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Feb 5 11:52:23 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:52:23 -0500 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <6497FBD7-578C-11D8-9FD3-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Ditto, I haven't called one of this things a fireplug for years, but remember it from my Louisville-area youth (with the stylistic distinction arnold points out). Since then, I have used it to refer only to some especially squat linebackers and fullbacks (but somehow missed the penile sense). dInIs >On Feb 4, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>FIREPLUG >> >>... I've very, very, very rarely heard "fireplug." > >interesting. i'm significantly older than barry, but not so far in >geographical origins from him. and when i was a kid (long long ago, in >southeastern pennsylvania), "fireplug" was to "fire hydrant" as "car" >was to "automobile" (and only "fireplug" had metaphorical extensions, >to body type or penis shape, for instance). now, i think, the >originally more technical-register term has pretty well covered the >territory, except of course for those conventionalized metaphorical >uses. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 5 13:00:09 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 05:00:09 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <200402050015.i150FxwR001833@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I definitely remember hearing and calling them "fireplugs" in Oregon in the 1950s too. I checked with a friend who is also a native who remembers calling them fireplugs or fire hydrants interchangeably, fire hydrants being the more "official" name. Mostly now I just hear "hydrant". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" > Subject: Re: fireplug > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I grew up saying fireplug, but I can't say for sure whether I picked it up > from the local speech of Oklahoma City or So. California, or from my > parents, who hailed from Iowa and Oklahoma/Texas respectively. I'm pretty > sure it was in my speech before we moved to Oregon in the early 50s. I > THINK I remember my grandmother (born in Illinois but grew up in Oklahoma) > saying fireplug, and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing my grandfather > (who was from East Texas and talked like it) say fire hydrant, and finding > it vaguely exotic, like another of his words, terrapin. > > At some point I must have made a gradual transition to hydrant, because I > hadn't thought of plug for a long time until your message reminded me. > > There: all sorts of reliable data that I'm sure you can use.:) > > Peter > > --On Wednesday, February 4, 2004 3:24 PM -0600 Luanne von Schneidemesser > wrote: > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 13:32:06 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:32:06 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Dear Luanne, I lived my first four years in the Chicago suburbs. It is there that I probably heard the first references to this community institution. My recollection is that _fireplug_ preceded _fire hydrant_ in my lexicon. >From age four onward I have lived in the Hudson Valley within commuting distance of NYC. I suspect that is where I picked up _fire hydrant_. My sons (12 and 13) I think use fire hydrant. I will take a little survey of the middle school usage for you. American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser >Subject: fireplug >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We >didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > >Thanks. > >Luanne > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 14:08:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:08:10 -0500 Subject: "mooning" origin In-Reply-To: <20040205040804.GA27405@panix.com> Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0500 2/4/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 11:02:27PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >> A question from the Straight Dope. >> >> Are there any examples of "mooning" (showing one's arse to >> one's opponent as a taunt) prior to the 20th century. It >> seems like there should be, but I'm too tired to go looking. > >No. Early 1960s is the earliest known, though I haven't re-checked >newspaperarchive.com to see if it has much better. > So the incident in the Canterbury Tales doesn't count? I've heard it described as mooning, although the label itself is admittedly anachronistic. L From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Feb 5 14:29:40 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:29:40 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: <4021D198.7040207@visi.com> Message-ID: Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate In the blogging world, "tittygate" has some proponents. http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=tittygate "Boobygate" has a few as well: http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=boobygate Grant On Feb 5, 2004, at 00:16, Dan Goodman wrote: > From the India edition of Google News. The Age is an Australian > paper. > > Nipplegate delays Oscar telecast > The Age - 2 hours ago > A flap over the exposure of Janet Jackson's breast hit the Oscars today > when ABC television announced it would delay the live broadcast of this > year's ceremony to avoid similar antics. > Oscars may bleep or edit out stars behaving badly The Star > Time delay sought to combat 'bad conduct' at Oscars Independent > Reuters - Entertainment Weekly (subscription) - Guardian - Defy > Magazine > - and 14 related > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/05/1075853982528.html From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 14:32:36 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:32:36 -0800 Subject: all up in my kitchen In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204152555.027e0100@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Is there a connection with baseball? Some of the baseball afficianados on the list probably know better than I do, but I've heard "up in the kitchen" to describe a high, inside fastball. Ed --- Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Another query I received: > > "all up in my > kitchen," meaning "prying into my personal matters > ?" It appears also to > contain an element of "provoking me." My sister > reports having heard this > in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web > diaries/blogs, but I've never > encountered it myself. > > > > I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > > Thanks. > > Luanne > > Luanne von Schneidemesser > Dictionary of American Regional English > University of Wisconsin-Madison > 600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall > Madison WI 53706 > http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 5 14:36:32 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:36:32 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <402166FC.3000307@d.umn.edu> Message-ID: I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and now live in Northern NJ. I use both, but not sure which one is "native." I remember having an issue becuase there is a fire hydrant outside my house. I was giving directions to my house to a NJ native and she looked at me funny when I mentioned it. I can't remember if I said "plug" or "hydrant." Ed --- Alan Hartley wrote: > I *have* occasionally heard fireplug in other > geographical contexts, but > in Duluth, it's fire hydrant. > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > > Subject: fireplug > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is > regional? > > Alan Hartley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Feb 5 14:32:09 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:32:09 -0500 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: <072601c3eb8a$b371cde0$a25f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Beverly Flanigan" > >Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >the South/South Midland? From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 15:05:29 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:05:29 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: Dear Luanne (again), While I'm waiting for some response in the school library, I searched Google for fireplug ~ fire plug ~ fire hydrant. The results were 4170 for fireplug, 11,000+ for fire plug, and 93000+ for fire hydrant. I'll check Nexis at Vassar College library. I just asked the Spanish teacher here. She is a native speaker of Spanish, but grew up in NYC. She recalls calling it in English _the pump_ or _fire hydrant_. Regards, Dave American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: Re: fireplug >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dear Luanne, > >I lived my first four years in the Chicago suburbs. It is there that I >probably heard the first references to this community institution. My >recollection is that _fireplug_ preceded _fire hydrant_ in my lexicon. >>From age four onward I have lived in the Hudson Valley within commuting >distance of NYC. I suspect that is where I picked up _fire hydrant_. My >sons (12 and 13) I think use fire hydrant. I will >take a little survey of the middle school usage for you. > >American Dialect Society writes: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser >>Subject: fireplug >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A >>woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). >We >>didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. >> >>Thanks. >> >>Luanne >> > From RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM Thu Feb 5 15:05:42 2004 From: RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM (Richard A. Spears) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:05:42 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. _Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. _Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking fountain. _Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. _Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire hydrant_. I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by teachers and grandparents. R. Spears ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von Schneidemesser" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: fireplug > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > Subject: fireplug > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > Thanks. > > Luanne > From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Feb 5 15:46:55 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:46:55 -0600 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040205092641.00ac7008@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A variation of this that I have heard from Indiana relatives is Johns, meaning John and his family (as in Johns aren't coming to the reunion, since they have to be at the State Fair). This is in Frankfort, IN, north of Indianapolis. Barbara >I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But >maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is >present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but >maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. > >At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >>doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >>it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >>southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Beverly Flanigan" >> >>Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >>pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >>the South/South Midland? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 15:59:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is the country coming to? L >In the blogging world, "tittygate" has some proponents. > >http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=tittygate > >"Boobygate" has a few as well: > >http://www.feedster.com/search.php?&q=boobygate > >Grant > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Feb 5 16:03:06 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:03:06 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Nipplegate >Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is the country coming to? L From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Feb 5 16:22:13 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:22:13 -0800 Subject: Nipplegate Message-ID: Pastiegate? Baker, John wrote: > Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 10:59 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Nipplegate > > > > >>Yes, lots of hits for "nipplegate." >>http://news.google.com/news?&q=nipplegate >> >> > >But "nipplegate" is technically inappropriate in this case, since the >actual nipple was not televised per se. Such sloppy usage--what is >the country coming to? > >L > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 16:19:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:19:10 -0500 Subject: Nipplegate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah, you just didn't look closely enough. For a close-up, >see the picture at http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/superbowl.asp. > >John Baker I stand corrected. (I was aware of the upper of the two versions of JJ at this site, but didn't have the technology to expose the lower one.) Justin time, too--"Nippleshieldgate" doesn't quite do it. I was thinking of proposing "Hootergate" on phonological grounds. L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Feb 5 17:37:51 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:37:51 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: >Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? ~~~~~~~~~ The terms were interchangeable in Lincoln NE in the 30s & 40s as nearly as I can remember. Sidelight: My husband knew both expressions from childhood, but not so much from local usage, since Jackson WY, where he grew up, had no such amenities, but from the funny papers! A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 5 17:37:08 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:37:08 EST Subject: Stink Lines (April 1982) Message-ID: I found "stink lines" while looking for "shit." It happens. http://www.wordspy.com/words/stinklines.asp Earliest Citation: They love anything smelly and three-dimensional. Why, you can practically see the stink lines coming off it. Look, I could stand here till I'm pink in the face trying to explain the joys of a good old-fashioned pile of stenchy things, but it wouldn't make any more sense to you than your toys make to me. ?Kerry P. Talbott, "The light before Christmas," Richmond Times Dispatch, December 24, 1995 Added to the database on January 23, 2004 April 1982, NATIONAL LAMPOON, pg. 86: FAMOUS COMIC ARTISTS SCHOOL by BRUCE COCHRAN Panel One: LESSON #217 SHIT PRACTICE BY DRAWING FIGURE ONE UNTIL YOU CAN DRAW SHIT AT THE DROP OF A HAT. THEN, WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "YOU CAN'T DRAW SHIT!," YOU CAN SHOW THEM HOW WRONGTHEY ARE. Panel Two: ("FIG. 1" is "shit"--ed.) (This text is in a pointer--ed.) NOTE: DO NOT CONFUSE STINK LINES WITH HEAT WAVES! From RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM Thu Feb 5 18:10:49 2004 From: RASpears.pipo at XEMAPS.COM (Richard A. Spears) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:10:49 -0600 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: I wanted to add that a hydrant was more generic than a fireplug. There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, rising out of the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns with a water outlet on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel fire hydrants were not called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into the wall of a building was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were used to pump water into the building's sprinkler system. R. Spears ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Spears" ; "Richard A. Spears" To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Re: fireplug > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Richard A. Spears" > Subject: Re: fireplug > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. > > _Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. > _Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking > fountain. > _Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. > _Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire > hydrant_. > > I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by > teachers > and grandparents. > > R. Spears > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von > Schneidemesser" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM > Subject: fireplug > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > Subject: fireplug > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 5 19:42:27 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:42:27 -0500 Subject: Fireplug; LA Times & Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <18c.255041e5.2d52fde7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > May-June for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE (and only part of it) is later than I'd > like it. What can you do? I hate to be the messenger of bad news, but I think it may in fact be even later than that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Feb 5 20:45:20 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:45:20 -0500 Subject: fireplug in the Hudson Valley Message-ID: My survey poster went up in the middle school library about half-way through the morning. Of the couple dozen returns the vast majority or for _fire hydrant_ "always". I'll post final numbers next week. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 5 22:56:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:56:49 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <001001c3ebf9$8647eab0$baeefea9@NewDell> Message-ID: My southern Ohio informant (again) says fireplug is so well known that many people, including her insurance man, just ask "You got a plug nearby?" But when a contractor asked her "How many plugs you want on your house?" she was puzzled. He meant the outside things she calls spickets (vs. faucets inside); she had never heard plugs used for these outside hose attachments. One more: For her, a tap is a public water source, like a pipe with a knob that might be found in a park or a cemetery (not a drinking fountain or 'bubbler'). At 09:05 AM 2/5/2004 -0600, you wrote: >I recall hearing both from the 1940s onward in the Kansas City area. > >_Hydrant_ was any outdoor faucet, but not a decorative indoor fixture. >_Water Hydrant_ was an outdoor faucet you could drink from, i.e., a drinking >fountain. >_Fire Hydrant_ was/is a hydrant for fire fighting. >_Fireplug_ was/is the funny squat thing that some people call a _fire >hydrant_. > >I viewed _hydrant_ as an older usage and the one most likely to be used by >teachers >and grandparents. > >R. Spears > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Luanne von Schneidemesser" ; "Luanne von >Schneidemesser" >To: ; >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:24 PM >Subject: fireplug > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Luanne von Schneidemesser > > Subject: fireplug > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > Anyone know if fireplug (=fire hydrant) is regional? If so, where? A > > woman originally from Ohio says she uses it (and people laugh at her). We > > didn't ask about this when interviewing for DARE. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luanne > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 5 22:48:08 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:48:08 -0500 Subject: Mom's place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My southern Ohio informant said she wouldn't use the proper name alone in this way, but "John and them" could be a "collective" term (her word), meaning, as I thought, an implied reference to the original or complete family even if only one person lives there at present. Possessive would be "John and them's (place)." Beverly At 09:46 AM 2/5/2004 -0600, you wrote: >A variation of this that I have heard from Indiana relatives is >Johns, meaning John and his family (as in Johns aren't coming to the >reunion, since they have to be at the State Fair). This is in >Frankfort, IN, north of Indianapolis. > >Barbara > >>I too think it's possessive, and it assumed it would be plural poss. But >>maybe it's like "you all," with plural implied even if only one person is >>present. "Mom's place" could mean she lives there alone or with others, but >>maybe it suggests the larger family unit? I'll ask my informant. >> >>At 07:33 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>>I think "Mom 'n' 'ems" is probably a possessive rather than a plural and it >>>doesn't necessarily mean that Mom has more than one companion. My wife uses >>>it with some frequency (central Illinois with mother and grandmother from >>>southern Indiana, which I suppose is South Midlands.) >>>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >>>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Beverly Flanigan" >>> >>>Two more: We're going over to Mom 'n' 'ems (pl.). "And them" is a common >>>pl. in AAVE (or maybe Gullah); is this possessive variant common outside >>>the South/South Midland? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Feb 6 02:45:44 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:45:44 -0600 Subject: "shiznit"--epilogue: Message-ID: Slang isn't just a casual way of expressing something; it's often also "owned" by the group using it--as if others have no business using or even inquiring about it. The recent very helpful ads-l replies on "shiznit" led to the following response from the mother of the two teenagers who had asked me about it: "...Thank you for all the work on this word. My family has enjoyed the responses. The younger ones (14&16) that use the word more often think all of the investigation has taken something away from the enjoyment of using the word. ..." Gerald Cohen From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Feb 6 04:41:02 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:41:02 -0500 Subject: Val-girl "like" Message-ID: The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" linguistic novelty. The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article on the generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some efforts to curb that use. My own efforts are described at http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf. Se?n Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana; Chuck Yeager flies, like, airplanes. From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Feb 6 05:20:56 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:20:56 -0500 Subject: Fire plug Message-ID: When I was growing up in the Washington, D.C. area (1946-1964), fireplug was standard. My mother (b. 1920), who lived in D.C. all her life, says fire plug. We also said "fire hydrant" or just "hydrant". My mother-in-law (b. 1931) has lived in the Philadelphia area all her life [both parents ware born in England]. I think she is more inclined to say "fire hydrant", though "fire plug" would not seem strange here. It doesn't come up in conversation a lot. Se?n Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA (just outside Philly) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 06:46:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:46:26 EST Subject: Colorado Digitization; Mouster Message-ID: COLORADO DIGITIZATION Some newspapers have started the site. Keep adding to ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS! If Olive is going to do the BROOKLYN EAGLE and Missouri's Newspapers and Colorado's Newspapers, how about making things easy for me and combining it all for one simple search? The recent NPR interview (below) is of interest. http://www.cpr.org/co_matters/ Thursday, Jan. 22 Historic Newspaper Digitization Brenda Bailey-Hainer, project manager for the Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection, talks about a project to bring the state?s oldest newspapers to the Internet as part of a federally funded digitization program. http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOUSTER It appears that the NEW YORK POST invented or popularized this. It applies only to Disney, so it has limited use. It's "mouse" plus "ouster." From the NEW YORK POST, 5 February 2004, pg. 38, cols 1-3 headline: _Disney heir zings Eisner,_ _pushes for his mouster_ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 14:26:44 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:26:44 EST Subject: fireplug Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:10:49 -0600, "Richard A. Spears" explicates: > There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, rising out of > the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns with a > water outlet > on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel fire > hydrants were not > called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into the > wall of a building > was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were used to > pump water > into the building's sprinkler system. The "connection built into the wall of a building" is called a "Siamese", presumably because there are two hose connections joined to a single pipe. I don't know if Political Correctness has hit this piece of hardware, but I can't imagine a fire chief telling his men, er people, "hook up to the conjoined twins!" It may be relevant to note that, following the great Baltimore fire of 1904, water pipe connections for firefighting were standardized throughout the United States. Other cities had sent some forty fire engines to Baltimore's aid and none of them had connections of the right size to connect to Baltimore's water system. Is it possible that as part of the standardization effort, terms like "hydrant" and "Siamese" were given cast-in-concrete official definitions. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Feb 6 14:57:53 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:57:53 EST Subject: general counsel, take 2 Message-ID: In a message dated Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Catherine Aman writes > I am writing an article > touching on the history of the in-house legal department and am curious to > know of any early citations for the title "general counsel." I know that > lawyers in these jobs were at one time (mid-20th c.) referred to as "kept > women" because they were (1) on company payrolls, and (2) their skills were > not generally admired among corporate lawyers in law firms. I suspect that > the word "general" in the job title indicates that these lawyers were > generalists, weighing in on labor and employment issues, real estate > matters, contracts, litigation, &tc I suspect that "general counsel" comes from the same origin as "general manager", who is the manager in charge of ALL operations in a given company, or site, or whatever, with all other "managers" at that location having more specialized duties. cf a professional baseball team, which has one "general manager" who hires and trades and subordinate to him a singular "manager" who directs the team on the field. Hence a general counsel handles, or supervises, all the legal work of the firm, with, as workload demands, other counsels or just plain lawyers handling individual cases. Compare "Attorney-General", or the simiolar Postmaster-General, or that military term "Sergeant-Major General". Objection: in corporate law there is such a thing as a "general partner" in which "general" does not mean "high-level universal scope" but rather specifies the partner's exposure to liability. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ a note on terminology: a professional baseball team takes orders on the fileld from a "manager" who is assisted by "coaches" (although "coach" has the second meaning of "anybody who is assigned to the first- and third-base coaching boxes"---THE manager has the option of choosing himself to be A coach.). In basketball, however, the person directing the team is "the coach" and "the manager" is the person in charge of supplying clean towels. - Jim Landau From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Feb 6 15:10:16 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:10:16 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I never heard "fireplug" where I grew up (north of Boston). I haven't heard it in western MA, either, but can't recall any specific instance of a local person referring to the thing. My gut feeling is that it's probably "fire hydrant" out here, though, too. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Feb 6 15:47:35 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:47:35 -0500 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204151928.027a8140@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Now for some real data. Our citation files have something like 20 instances of the "fire hydrant" sense of "fire plug," all pre-1973 and the overwhelming majority of which come from technical sources having to do with firefighting or civil engineering. A couple come from fictional sources -- one James T. Farrell's Young Lonigan (1932) and the other Willard Robertson's South from Yesterday (1943). For good measure I checked our electronic database, which consists of the full text of citations collected from 1980 on, and found 5 out of 22 hits for "fire plug" or "fireplug" in the "fire hydrant" sense. (In most cases the word was used of people, usually meaning "solidly built" or "physically or psychologically strong") Of the five that did bear the literal meaning, one came from a Donald Hall essay in the Utne Reader; one from a 1985 novel called The Enchanted Isle by James M. Cain (but presumably not the the same James M. Cain who wrote The Postman Always Rings Twice, who died in 1977); one from a Playboy interview with Steve Martin; one from a 1993 Newsweek article; and one from a Naval Institute Press publication. Interestingly, we have no "fireplug" cites from any local newspapers or from any of such non- local papers as we read (the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The Christian Science Monitor, and such like). I hope this is of some use to you, Luanne. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 6 16:50:42 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:50:42 -0800 Subject: fireplug In-Reply-To: <000801c3ec13$62c865a0$baeefea9@NewDell> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Richard A. Spears wrote: > I wanted to add that a hydrant was more generic than a fireplug. > There is a type of fire hydrant that looks like a four-inch pipe, > rising out > of > the ground for about 24 inches, terminating in two, 90-degree turns > with a > water outlet > on each of them. These, and other similar, heavier bronze or steel > fire > hydrants were not > called fireplugs in my recollection. A similar connection built into > the > wall of a building > was also called a fire hydrant, even though these connections were > used to > pump water > into the building's sprinkler system. just so. some buildings up the street from me in palo alto have such connections, labeled HYDRANT. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Feb 6 17:40:39 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:40:39 -0800 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: This might be all in my own head, but fwiw: there are the vertical things that stick up out of the sidewalk, & then there are the smaller things (sort of two-headed things) that stick out of walls or buildings. My earliest awareness was only of fire hydrants (the larger, vertical sidewalk ones). When I heard fireplug I thought it was those things in the walls. Really not sure why. Like I said, I could have just made this up. I wouldn't call the wall ones fire hydrants, but fireplug for the tall street ones is acceptable. I don't know if I've ever said fireplug myself, probably not. Born, bred & buttered in the SF Bay Area, Indigo -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 6 17:56:19 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:56:19 -0500 Subject: Val-girl "like" In-Reply-To: <003d01c3ec6c$92389270$6400a8c0@FITZT1840> Message-ID: Sean, I got a virus notice when I tried to open your attachment, so be careful! But anyway, why would you want to curb the use of filler "like"? You might want to teach some register control (OK informally, not formally), but that's about all you'll be able to do. It's everywhere, and numerous research articles are available on its use. At 11:41 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: >The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" >linguistic novelty. The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article >on the generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some >efforts to curb that use. My own efforts are described at >http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf. > >Se?n Fitzpatrick >Upper Darby, PA >Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana; Chuck Yeager flies, >like, airplanes. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 6 17:49:09 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:09 -0500 Subject: all up in my kitchen In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040204152555.027e0100@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Luanne, I got a response on "all up in my kitchen" and variants thereof from a former student who lives in the Cleveland-Erie area. I'll paste it in: My niece, who lives & works in a suburb of Cleveland, reports that two co-workers, native Clevelanders, have heard the phrase. One said it's used by blacks. The other said he hadn't heard it in a long time, & the last time it was by a cook, race/ethnicity unspecified. It definitely does mean "you are in my business," but seems to have given/be giving way to a large assortment of other expressions which mean the same thing. The two she gave as examples are, "They're all up in your/my conversation," and "Do you want to know what I had for breakfast, too?" If you'd like me to find out more details on this report, just lemme know. I'll pass on whatever else I hear. Beverly At 03:28 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Another query I received: > >kitchen," meaning "prying into my personal matters ?" It appears also to >contain an element of "provoking me." My sister reports having heard this >in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web diaries/blogs, but I've never >encountered it myself. > > > >I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > >Thanks. > >Luanne > >Luanne von Schneidemesser >Dictionary of American Regional English >University of Wisconsin-Madison >600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall >Madison WI 53706 >http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Feb 6 18:15:34 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (thomaspaikeday) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:15:34 -0600 Subject: new word Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Re: who's a native speaker? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: who's a native speaker? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Well, at the risk of being labeled one of the terminology idiots, I'll add > my own expertise. After almost 25 years of teaching graduate classes > composed of one-third to one-half foreign students who have learned English > as a second language, I can attest to the reality of non-native English. I > assume Erin is not concerned with a Chomskyan or Paikedayan (OK, Tom?) NO PROBLEM. BACK TO THE FUTURE, WHEN SOMEONE WOULD BE HUNTING FOR THE FIRST RECORDED USE OF "PAIKEDAYAN" I HOPE I'LL BE REMEMBERED AS THE ONE WHO MADE THE DISCOVERY (LIKE WHO DISCOVERED AMERICA) WHICH MAY BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHO USED THE BLESSED WORD FIRST. THANKS BEVERLY. TOM. > From debaron at UIUC.EDU Fri Feb 6 20:16:38 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:16:38 -0600 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: Hey, all, I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. Dennis Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 6 20:46:43 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:46:43 -0500 Subject: call waiting and away message In-Reply-To: <5E7098E4-58E1-11D8-BBF9-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Dennis Baron wrote: > I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the > oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away > (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. Here's the earliest I readily find on Nexis: The Washington Times July 12, 2001, Thursday, Final Edition SECTION: PART C; METROPOLITAN; LIFE/SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY; Pg. C1 HEADLINE: Teens get the message BYLINE: Katie Dunn; THE WASHINGTON TIMES BODY: Many of Ms. Casey's friends leave their IMs on all day, even when they are not there, and leave "away messages." Away messages are like voice-mail messages for phones. If friends send an IM to Ms. Casey while she has an away message up, her friends will see it and be able to type a reply. Some people constantly update their away messages with notices such as, "In the shower or "Studying." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 6 21:01:36 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:01:36 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: >From the Brooklyn Eagle, through the Brooklyn Public Library: The members of the Good Intent Hose Company were surprised yesterday morning, while washing their apparatus, at the debut of a large eel, which was ejected from the fire plug near their hose house, in Fourth below Chesnut street. *** (copied from a Philadelphia paper) Brooklyn Eagle, July 13, 1842, p. 2 I have some notes from NYC papers of the early 1830s referring to fire hydrants as a novelty. Nothing in these notes indicates what they looked like. I didn't find "fire plug" in my notes through the late 1840s. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From panis at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 6 21:04:03 2004 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:04:03 -0800 Subject: call waiting and away message In-Reply-To: <200402062046.i16Kkj3B014287@mtac1.prodigy.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Dennis Baron wrote: > >> I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message."... and Fred Shapiro wrote: >Here's the earliest I readily find on Nexis: > > >The Washington Times >July 12, 2001, Thursday, Final Edition The first example I find in Usenet via Google Groups is from May 19, 1988: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22away+message%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1987&as_maxd=6&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1989&selm=8805191529.AA26163%40inria.inria.fr&rnum=2 a.k.a. http://tinyurl.com/3e8n4 It should be obvious that "I am away" messages should not be sent more than once to the same recipient. However, Jacob's suggestion does have a practical interest. Suppose the person which is luckily cruising the Carribeans for 2 monthes is a member of several distribution lists: all members of all these lists, often the same persons, will receive the "I am away" notification.. By sending (once) the " away message " or other auto answers as specially typed messages (e.g. user level acknowledgments), one gives the opportunity to the lists to adopt a special treatment, e.g. dropping them rather than broadcasting. (end quote) The next I find (with this particular sense) is from June 12, 1991 in a group devoted to discussion of Internet Relay Chat (IRC): http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22away+message%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1990&as_maxd=6&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1992&selm=5815%40uniol.UUCP&rnum=12 or: http://tinyurl.com/2h5o4 At this point of net-degeneration I'd prefer to give the /wall command (which only generates one netwide broadcast, just as much as a /nick change or an / away message ) to the public: everyone can /wall, and everyone /ignores all /walls except those who enjoy sending and receiving them. (end quote) The former quote suggests an e-mail auto-response, and the latter an auto-response in real-time on-line conversation. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Feb 6 21:04:16 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:04:16 -0500 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: Usenet is a little earlier for "away message." From a 5/19/88 post on Google Groups: "It should be obvious that "I am away" messages should not be sent more than once to the same recipient. However, Jacob's suggestion does have a practical interest. Suppose the person which is luckily cruising the Carribeans for 2 monthes is a member of several distribution lists: all members of all these lists, often the same persons, will receive the "I am away" notification.. By sending (once) the "away message" or other auto answers as specially typed messages (e.g. user level acknowledgments), one gives the opportunity to the lists to adopt a special treatment, e.g. dropping them rather than broadcasting." As is implicit in this quote, away message is a contraction of "I am away" message or "while I'm away" message. John Baker From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Feb 6 23:07:48 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:07:48 -0600 Subject: call waiting and away message Message-ID: The 2002 Shorter Oxford cites "away game, goal, match, win" as examples, but the definition is too narrow (referring to "play" and "opponent"); same problem with the M-W (2002) def. There seems no doubt the earliest uses would have been in the game context, but contemporary usage as seen in "away team" (def. "away from home" in my UWD, 2000) and "away message" should, IMO, be defined more broadly and outside the play context. T.M.P. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: call waiting and away message > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: call waiting and away message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Hey, all, > > I'm trying to discover early uses of "away message." just checked the > oed and merriam webster on line and didn't find the term under away > (they have away game) or message. any input greatly appreciated. > > Dennis > > > Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 > Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 > Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 > University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > debaron at uiuc.edu From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Sat Feb 7 00:12:48 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:12:48 -0500 Subject: Media Request: Long Island Accent? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: [This was received via the ADS web site. Please respond directly to the querent if you can help her.] My name is Caren Chesler, and I'm a freelance reporter writing a story for the New York Times on the origins of the "Long Island accent." In searching the internet under the headings of linguist, and accent and dialect, your organization came up. I'd like to talk to you about the Long Island accent and where it may have come from. Please write back if you're interested. Or, if you know of anyone who is knowledgeable about this issue, please write back and let me know. Thanks, Caren Chesler scaby63 at aol.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 7 01:46:21 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:46:21 -0500 Subject: fireplug Message-ID: To add something to what Joanne said, I just checked newspaperarchive for "fireplug" between 1900 and 1905. There were nine different articles in six different newspapers. All the articles were talking about local fireplugs. Nothing too technical. There were many more hits for "fire hydrant" during the same period, in the same newspapers. I can't give you the ratio as the search engine seems to be upset right now. Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 7 03:49:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:49:26 -0500 Subject: antedating of camel jockey(1961) Message-ID: HDAS has 1965(a student interview) Using newspaperarchive, 11 June 1961 _Reno(NV) Evening Gazette. 4/6 [A Column by Robert C. Ruark] <> The writer also used the term "camel driver" later. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Feb 7 05:31:07 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 00:31:07 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20FHB?= Message-ID: FHB = Frat House Boys, a gay male pornography distributor. In a message dated 1/12/04 12:13:45 PM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: > Mencken has "FHB" in American Language, 4e, p. 209, in a footnote > citing "Semi-Secret Abbreviations," by Percy W. Long, _Dialect Notes_, > Vol. IV, Pt. II, 1915, and Vol. IV, Pt. V, 1916. > > Grant > > > On Jan 12, 2004, at 11:00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > MIK? More In Kitchen > > > > FHB? Family Hold Back > > > >? ? Any cites? > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 07:03:07 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 02:03:07 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" Message-ID: I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including "nautch house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a "cf." directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". This etymology does not seem right to me. "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of "nautch" rather than the other way around. Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from Hindi (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th century, often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' dance styles. I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 7 12:05:57 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:05:57 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207014231.02ef4eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Not to mention those who have prostituted the English language by conflating the vowels in question. dInIs I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including "nautch house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a "cf." directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". This etymology does not seem right to me. "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of "nautch" rather than the other way around. Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from Hindi (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th century, often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' dance styles. I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 12:16:33 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:16:33 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207014231.02ef4eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My limited resources at home concur with your analysis of "nautch" as an mildly Anglicized version of the Hindi word for "a dance." Of course, one of my sources is the dreaded Hippocrene Standard English-Hindi Dictionary, which includes this typo in the front matter: "As Q, in 'Quran,' the sacred boo of Islam." That's what I get for six dollars. Nautch is also well-attested to in Hobson-Jobson as "a kind of ballet-dance performed by women," among other things. Nautch-girl is also there. H-J "nautch" entry: http://tinyurl.com/yv479 H-J "nautch-girl" entry: http://tinyurl.com/38thr Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass it on to Jon Lighter. Cheers, Grant Barrett project editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang On Feb 7, 2004, at 02:03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I see both "nautch" and "notch" in HDAS meaning "whore" (including > "nautch > house", "notch girl", etc.). No etymology is given for "nautch" but a > "cf." > directs one to "notch" where it is stated that "notch" = "prostitute" > originates in the old (non-US) "notch" = "vagina". > > This etymology does not seem right to me. > > "Notch" and "nautch" seem to be the same word here. "Notch" is a common > standard English word; "nautch" is not. Unless there is strong > evidence to > the contrary, one would have to take "notch" to be a respelling of > "nautch" > rather than the other way around. > > Standard English "nautch" of course is pretty clearly derived from > Hindi > (or related language) and it refers to dancing girls, in which sense it > appears many times in US newspapers on-line far back into the 19th > century, > often with remarks about the indecency/immorality of the 'Oriental' > dance > styles. > > I am sure the stereotype (how well justified I don't know) of "nautch > dancer" would have resembled "[near-]prostitute". > > Most likely this (and not "notch" = "vagina") is the origin of the > "nautch"/"notch" expressions in question IMHO. > > -- Doug Wilson > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 13:52:24 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:52:24 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <77BBB0CA-5967-11D8-B837-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: >Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or >conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass >it on to Jon Lighter. Conflation and coincidence are possibilities, but they seem a priori unlikely here for three reasons: (1) Occam's razor; (2) "notch" = "vagina" being _unattested_ in the US (per HDAS); (3) rarity or absence [AFAIK] of analogous parallel derivations such as *"pussy girl", *"cunny house". -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 14:31:14 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:31:14 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207083719.02ef9230@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 08:52, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> Natch, this still doesn't rule out American notch-->nautch, or >> conflation of the two. I'll make a note to look into this and to pass >> it on to Jon Lighter. > > Conflation and coincidence are possibilities, but they seem a priori > unlikely here for three reasons: (1) Occam's razor; (2) "notch" = > "vagina" > being _unattested_ in the US (per HDAS); (3) rarity or absence [AFAIK] > of > analogous parallel derivations such as *"pussy girl", *"cunny house". All good points, and noted. Grant From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:08:32 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:08:32 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: At the risk of unscientifically promoting the very effort I am reporting about, I wonder how many subscribers are aware of the campaign to promote the use of the word "santorum" to refer to "the frothy mix of lubricant and fecal matter that is sometimes a byproduct of anal sex." The definition was a kind of developed through a contest organized by sex-advice columnist Dan Savage. It was a kind of linguistic payback to Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum who made some frothy anti-gay comments while the US Supreme Court was considering the constitutionality of sodomy laws last year. The contest involved soliciting possible appropriate definitions for the senator's name, and "frothy mix " was the winner. It was followed by on-going deliberate efforts to promote the use of the word in the media and its inclusion in dictionaries. There is a website http://www.spreadingsantorum.com now devoted to the effort. Is this kind of lexicological campaign unprecedented? There are obvious differences between this effort and the campaign against Charles Boycott or the way that Capt. Lynch got his name into the lexicon. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 19:28:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's funny you should ask that. Not an hour ago, I sent a message to Dan Savage, inquiring as to whether he had seen any evidence of the word spreading "in the wild," without specific references to his campaign, to his column, or without having to self-consciously define the term. In his column he has printed letters recounting anecdotes "proving" the success of the word, but it's not clear that those mentioned did not get the word from the same two sources. They all read as if the word is being discussed as a novelty or curiosity. The in-group using this word, in my opinion, isn't people who might have a use for it, but people who merely desire to spread it. The super-shedder here is Savage's column, and, by extension, the campaign. In the database and Internet searches I have done--and admittedly, it is time-consuming and difficult to search for, given all the material related to the Senator himself--I have found exactly no uses of the new "santorum" which are not self-conscious and/or included merely to propagate the word. So I, too, would be interested in any solid evidence that this word has a life beyond the campaign. Grant On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:08, Michael Newman wrote: > At the risk of unscientifically promoting the > very effort I am reporting about, I wonder how > many subscribers are aware of the campaign to > promote the use of the word "santorum" to refer > > Is this kind of lexicological campaign > unprecedented? There are obvious differences > between this effort and the campaign against > Charles Boycott or the way that Capt. Lynch got > his name into the lexicon. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 20:06:18 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:06:18 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any > "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in > the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The > specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign > make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. Grant From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:50:15 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:50:15 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It's funny you should ask that. Not an hour ago, I sent a message to >Dan Savage, inquiring as to whether he had seen any evidence of the >word spreading "in the wild," without specific references to his >campaign, to his column, or without having to self-consciously define >the term. > >In his column he has printed letters recounting anecdotes "proving" the >success of the word, but it's not clear that those mentioned did not >get the word from the same two sources. They all read as if the word is >being discussed as a novelty or curiosity. > >The in-group using this word, in my opinion, isn't people who might >have a use for it, but people who merely desire to spread it. The >super-shedder here is Savage's column, and, by extension, the campaign. > >In the database and Internet searches I have done--and admittedly, it >is time-consuming and difficult to search for, given all the material >related to the Senator himself--I have found exactly no uses of the new >"santorum" which are not self-conscious and/or included merely to >propagate the word. > >So I, too, would be interested in any solid evidence that this word has >a life beyond the campaign. > >Grant I agree. However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:50:55 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:50:55 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: Apparently, the meaning of 'Santorum' has been in question for a while, dating to when the good Senator came into office. Bob Kerry, according to the following discussion, attempted to define the Latin meaning of Santorum. No cite is provided for Bob Kerry's alleged comment. http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair05012003.html (1 May 2003) A more interesting question, and one that would be difficult to answer, is the usage history of: "(word/phrase), that's Latin (or French, or German, or whatever) for (negative word/phrase)". Dave Barry uses the approach in his humor columns. George Cole Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Feb 7 19:52:27 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: santorum Message-ID: Correct, the spelling in my just sent note should read: Bob Kerrey. George Cole Shippensburg University From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Feb 7 20:12:24 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:12:24 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: <177A566A-59A9-11D8-831A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: I should clarify: there are plenty of uses of "santorum" on such sites, but as far as I can see, only as keyword filler used to draw more search engine hits. Which may only mean that people know about the santorum campaign, since there are no other senator's surnames so listed. G On Feb 7, 2004, at 15:06, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > >> However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >> "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >> the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >> specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >> make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > > For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and > pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including > newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot > of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of > it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > > Grant > From mnewman at QC.EDU Sat Feb 7 20:28:11 2004 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:28:11 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: <177A566A-59A9-11D8-831A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: >On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > >>However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >>"in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >>the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >>specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >>make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > >For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and >pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including >newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot >of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of >it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > >Grant That's not surprising. While there are fecaphiles??, there aren't many. The vast majority of erotica writers would leave santorum out of their stories, even kinky ones. Kinda ruin the mood, don't you think? Still, I'm sure that at some point it'll appear, presumably in some particularly graphic dom-sub scene. -- Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 tel: 718-997-2871 fax: 718-997-2873 From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Feb 7 22:11:26 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The use of "santorum" as a meta-term in web sites may have nothing to do with this specific campaign. It may just be a dig at his conservative, family-values politics. The name "Exon" was similarly used on porn sites when that senator led the fight for the Communications Decency Act. The absence of other senators' names may simply be due to the fact that they are not unique. "Hatch," for example could refer to many people, not just the senator. Not so with "Santorum." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Grant Barrett > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: santorum > > > I should clarify: there are plenty of uses of "santorum" on such sites, > but as far as I can see, only as keyword filler used to draw more > search engine hits. Which may only mean that people know about the > santorum campaign, since there are no other senator's surnames so > listed. > > G > > On Feb 7, 2004, at 15:06, Grant Barrett wrote: > > > On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: > > > >> However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any > >> "in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in > >> the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The > >> specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign > >> make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. > > > > For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and > > pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including > > newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot > > of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of > > it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. > > > > Grant > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 7 23:32:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:32:46 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology Message-ID: HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: "1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of homosexuality)." from ca. 1942-5 AND "2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." from 1953. Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: "1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence is lacking]" I doubt this derivation of sense 1 from sense 2. I speculate (without any decisive evidence) that "asshole buddy" began -- during WW II or earlier -- as a casual humorous military alteration of "foxhole buddy" meaning the man who shares one's foxhole. This would give sense 1 first. No doubt double-entendre was obvious from the start or very soon, and I think sense 2 likely was attached to the already existing phrase. Was sense 2 ever common, outside of jokes based on sense 1? "Foxhole buddy" is still used to mean "Army/Marine buddy from the war", I believe. Tending to support the derivation from "foxhole buddy" is the rarity of alternatives such as "asshole friend" or "asshole pal" or "asshole comrade". It's virtually always "buddy" ... because, I think, it originated with the establishment and maintenance of foxholes by the "buddy system" (not the *"friend system" or whatever). Around 1960-70, I often heard "asshole buddy" = "very close friend", and it had (as HDAS says) no homosexual implication, even when it could naturally have had (e.g., "He got his promotion because he's the boss's asshole buddy", which had in my experience a very different meaning from something like "... because he's the boss's lover/etc."). In my experience (not necessarily representative) "asshole buddy" (sense 1) is usually or almost always spoken with second-word stress, in keeping with "asshole" acting as an adjective = "good": thus "my close BUDDY", "my bosom BUDDY", "my asshole BUDDY" (also "my fat BUDDY", "my old BUDDY", etc.). I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the same stress? Modifiers which denote the context of a friendship will, I think, usually have (first-word) stress: "my FISHING buddy", "my POKER buddy", "my ARMY buddy". And probably "my FOXHOLE buddy" (can anyone confirm or refute this one?). Is there "ASSHOLE buddy" on a similar basis in conventional speech? In sense 1, or 2, or maybe in both? Maybe some of the list scholars can repair my ignorance? -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 8 00:54:53 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:54:53 -0500 Subject: santorum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>On Feb 7, 2004, at 14:50, Michael Newman wrote: >> >>>However, the problem is that it is hard to imagine any >>>"in-the-wild" uses of the term outside a few intimate incidents in >>>the bedroom and people recounting such incidents to others. The >>>specificity and yuck factors that make it attractive to the campaign >>>make people (in my experience) avoid talking about it. >> >>For what it's worth, I searched all available online erotica and >>pornographic fiction and fan fiction I could find for free, including >>newsgroups (such as alt.sex.stories.*), to no avail. There's not a lot >>of restraint in that kind of writing, and there's millions of words of >>it. This particular "santorum" does not seem to be there. >> >>Grant > >That's not surprising. While there are fecaphiles?? I believe "coprophiles" would be the standard moniker, but I'm no prescriptivist. >, there aren't >many. The vast majority of erotica writers would leave santorum out >of their stories, even kinky ones. Kinda ruin the mood, don't you >think? Still, I'm sure that at some point it'll appear, presumably in >some particularly graphic dom-sub scene. >-- >Michael Newman >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders >Queens College/CUNY >Flushing, NY 11367 >tel: 718-997-2871 >fax: 718-997-2873 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 01:11:01 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:11:01 -0500 Subject: Glatt Kosher (1970) Message-ID: http://dictionary.oed.com/readers/appeal.html glatt kosher: antedate 1973 Oh, all right. I gotta do everything. Five straight days of parking tickets. Cold. Rain. The New York Times screws me again. The Chicago Tribune won't be ready. Shoulda killed myself. "Glatt Kosher" was in the first place I looked. Perhaps I'll look other places (JEWISH WEEK) for slightly earlier. This book cited Jeremiah J. Berman's SHEHITAH (1941), but "glatt" is not in that book. THE BOOK OF KASHRUTH: A TREASURY OF KOSHER FACTS AND FRAUDS by Seymour E. Freedman New York: Bloch Publishing 1970 Pg. xv: Kashruth Dictionary 1. AYVER MIN HA-CHAY 2. BODEK Pg. xvi: 3. CHALAF 4. CHAYLEV 5. CHOMETZ 6. DAHM 7. FLAYSHIG 8. HADACHA Pg. xvii: 9. HALACHA 10. KASHRUTH 11. KOSHER 12. KOSHER L'PESSACH Pg. xviii: 13. MASHGIACH 14. MILCHIG 15. MITZVAH 16. M'LEECHA 17. N'VAYLA 18. PAREVE 19. PLUMBA 20. RAV HAMACHSHIR Pg. xix: 21. SHABBOS 22. SHECHITA 23. SHOCHET 24. TAHOR 25. TOMAY 26. TORAH 27. TRAYFE 28. TSAAR BALAY CHAYIM Pg. xx: 29. TRAYBERING 30. T'UDAH 31. VAAD HAKASHRUTH 32. YAYIN NESSECH 33. YOM TOV Pg. 120: (Chapter 5--ed.) _Glatt Kosher Meat--_ _Jewish Milk_ In recent years a new title--"_glatt Kosher_ meat"--has become popular among both the observant and non-observant Jews. Many have used the terminology without quite fully understanding its meaning. To some, the words "_glatt_ Kosher" have implications of a whole new set of commandments related to the Dietary Laws. This is not so. _Glatt_ Kosher is not a new law of Kashruth. The great stress upon the observant housewife to purchase only _glatt_ Kosher meats arose in recent years in the Chasidic community, particularly with the _Satmer Rebbi_, and from that vantage point spread to other Chasidic and non-Chasidic Orthodox Jews. Pg. 125: The recent popularity of _glatt_ Kosher meat is another incident of Chasidic independence from Misnagdic practice. There are many Jews who are confused by this sudden emphasis on _glatt_ Kosher meat and consider it as if it were a whole new set of dietary requirements. The fact of the matter is that the concept of _glatt_ Kosher meat is not a new phenomenon. It is discussed in the Talmud. Clarification ofthe _glatt_ principle is as follows: The word _glatt_ means "smooth." As is generally known, the cow eats a good portion of its daily food requirement in the field. Often the grass which it eats is mixed with foreign objects that have a tendency to puncture the lungs as they pass down the esophagus of the cow into the upper stomach. A punctured lung raises the question of Kashruth because if the puncture is such that it does not heal, then the animal is _trayfe_. The Talmud states that if the punctures of the lung are covered over with scabs, however, then the animal may be accepted as Kosher. Pg. 126: After an animal is slaughtered by the _shochet_, it is opened, and the _shochet_ places his hand inside the animal and feels the lungs. If he finds that scabs have formed on the lungs, he will have the lungs removed and examined or blown up so that he can test them and see if the punctures have been covered by scabs or not. If the scabs have healed the punctures of the lung, the animal is declared Kosher; if not it is declared _trayfe_. The Chasidic Satmer Rabbi and his followers recently began insisting upon _glatt_ Kosher meat, that is meat which comes from an animal whose lungs were smooth (_glatt_) and without scabs of any kind. Such choosing of _glatt_ Kosher meat only is commendable as a superpious requisite since non-_glatt_ meat is also Kosher if the scabs have sufficiently haled the punctures. However, the unfortunate aspect of this new phenomenon in Kashruth is that it has been carried to an extreme by many Orthodox Jews, who naively have come to accept only _glatt_ Kosher meat as really Kosher, and all other meats as questionable. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 02:13:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:13:28 -0500 Subject: "Apple Pie and Cheese" Message-ID: "Apple pie and ice cream" is "pie a la mode." But "apple pie and cheese" seems to be just that, and has slipped through the radar. Is it an old New England dish? While in Ghana (!), one dessert we had was apple pie with ice cream, and one of the oldsters mentioned apple pie and cheese. It's also "apple pie and cheddar." April 1915, SPY (International Apple Shippers' Association), Vol. V, No. 3, pg. 10: _Apple Pie and Cheese_ By Eugene Field (...) O tempora! O mores! What profanations these That seek to dim the glories Of apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 11: I'm glad I've got three willing boys To hang around and tease Their mother for the filling joys Of apple-pie and cheese. (...) No flippant, sugared notion Shall my appetite appease, Or bate my soul'd devotion To apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 12: And these feelings are so grateful, Says I, "Julia, if you please, I'll take another plateful Of that applie-pie and cheese!" (...) No matter what conditions Dyspeptic come to feaze, Pg. 13: The best of all physicians Is apple-pie and cheese! (...) Pg. 14: But I, when I undress me Each night, upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me With apple-pie and cheese! (GOOGLE)(33 hits for "apple pie and cheddar) Apple pie and cheddar - [ Translate this page ] Apple pie et cheddar (USA). Pr?paration : 2 h mn, Cuisson : mn, R?frig?ration : h, Calories : Pour 6 personnes Ingr?dients : 12 Pommes 250 g sucre brun 1 cuil. ... perso.wanadoo.fr/cuisinez/_private/ tartes/tarte_apple_pie.htm - 9k - Cached - Similar pages An Apple a Day Keeps the Doctor Away - www.ezboard.com ... Apple a Day Keeps the Doctor Away Dond ... you forgot the Yankee tradition of apple pie and cheddar! I just made my first apple pie ... pub97.ezboard.com/ fcookingwithsaramoultonfrm1.showMessage?topicID=857.topic - 22k - Cached - Similar pages Spirited symphony ... They're more like apple pie and cheddar cheese - two great tasting things that can taste great together, but only if you're partial to cheese and apples all ... www.canoe.ca/JamConcertsR2Z/spiritofwest_102699.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Nation's Restaurant News: Wheel of fortune: Cheese makes rounds on ... ... Also in New York, Jennifer Handler, chef-owner at Clove restaurant, is playing on another classic combination, apple pie and cheddar cheese. ... www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3190/ 9_36/83520547/p1/article.jhtml - 13k - Cached - Similar pages The Big E - The Avenue of States ... you looking sharp in all seasons, breathe in the fragrances of candles and coffee beans or tempt your tastebuds with fresh apple pie and cheddar cheese - two ... www.thebige.com/detpages/bige10147.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages iChef.com Free Recipes - Cooking.Com ... Aged Gouda with Apple Galette Apple pie and Cheddar cheese have a long association. Here''sa twist on that theme - a rustic apple ... www.ichef.com/.../100000/task/categorysearch/recipecategoryid/ 202/filterid/recipecategoryid/letter/All - 101k - Cached - Similar pages Boston.com / A&E / Dining/Food RECIPES & ARCHIVES. Pears, blue cheese, and hazelnuts on puff pastry. Apple pie and Cheddar make a classic pair, so why not pears and blue cheese on puff pastry? ... www.boston.com/dining/recipes/p/pears_blue_cheese.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS)(26 hits for "apple pie and cheddar") Re: Apple pie and Cheddar Michael McCollum wrote in message ... Up north, "Yankee" means "someone who puts cheddar cheese on his apple pie". Oh dear... does ... rec.org.sca - Jun 8, 2001 by Michael McCollum - View Thread (5 articles) Re: Apple Pie & Cheddar - Strange? ... I have an old Cornish lady next door and she has given me some lovely old Cornish recipes, but never apple pie and cheddar! Regards Eve rec.food.baking - Oct 23, 1999 by EandG - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Cheese and apples My Mom, who grew up in Tupper Lake and Buffalo, NY, fixed us Apple pie and Cheddar Cheese. Yum. So I think it is a custom widespread in upstate NY. ... rec.food.historic - Jun 19, 1997 by Gwyneth Crowley - View Thread (8 articles) Re: Heids and coneys ... How about apple pie and cheddar cheese? Not exclusive, but it is both apple and cheddar cheese country and they do serve it that way. ... ne.food - Jul 24, 1997 by Barry Shein - View Thread (7 articles) Re: OT West Wing ... BLEEEEARGH! A-1 on ice cream? Not even close. Obviously someone who has never tried apple pie and cheddar...but it has to be REALLY REALLY SHARP cheddar. ... alt.tv.law-and-order - Oct 30, 2001 by mk4u - View Thread (114 articles) Re: [I] Yorkshire Origins? was .. (Clueless Merkins) ... Anyway, the apple pie and cheddar combination is a generic New England tradition, not just my family. Possibly a lot of Yorkshiremen settled here. ... alt.fan.pratchett - Dec 15, 1998 by Richard Eney - View Thread (13 articles) (GOOGLE)(205 hits for "apple pie and cheese," mostly Eugene Field's poem) Log Cabin Chronicles Greg Duncan's Blue Ribbon Apple Pie column ... But I, when I undress me Each night, upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me With apple-pie and cheese." Eugene Field, Apple-Pie and Cheese. ... www.tomifobia.com/duncan/apple_pie.shtml - 7k - Cached - Similar pages Index - Pie Recipe Archives ... But I, when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese." - Eugene Field, "Apple Pie and Cheese". ... labellecuisine.com/ Archives/index__pie_recipe_archives.htm - 54k - Cached - Similar pages Colonial Times Apple-Cranberry Pie with Cornmeal Crust ... But I, when I undress me, Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese." - Eugene Field, "Apple Pie and Cheese". ... labellecuisine.com/Archives/pie/ colonial_times_apple.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages Let Them Eat Cheese ... Charles de Gaulle (1890-1970) "But when I undress me/ Each night upon my knees/ Will ask the Lord to bless me/ With apple pie and cheese!" ? Apple Pie and ... www.dairymax.com/CheeseForDessert.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages Fruit From Washington - Cheese and Fruit Recipes ... But when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me with apple pie and cheese!? - Eugene Field, Apple Pie and Cheese. ... www.fruitfromwashington.com/Recipes/cheeses.htm - 36k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) (95 hits for "apple pie and cheese") Re: Apple pie and cheese (was Re: The term ) ... Alban I'm well aware that many contemporary people like the combination of apple pie and cheese. My lord husband is one of them. ... rec.org.sca - Jun 5, 2001 by Robin Carroll-Mann - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Good Apple Pie, was: Apple Pie and Cheese Charles Quinn wrote: I used to read cookbooks even as a 10-year-old and thought this was "icky" (read about it in Betty Crocker etc). ... la.eats - Oct 27, 1998 by xstitchcrazy - View Thread (1 article) Re: What a Friend We Have In Cheeses Yes, and my apologies to Eugene Fields, that fourth line should read "With apple pie and cheese." I must proof my work, for it usually makes no sense. ... rec.food.cooking - Sep 16, 1995 by Anne Bourget - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Looked for this one for a long time ... pie! "Twin Peaks" 1990 But I, when I undress me Each night upon my knees Will ask the Lord to bless me, With apple pie and cheese. ... alt.quotations - Nov 19, 2002 by Grace McGarvie - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Apple Pie and Cheese I've never had any cheese _but_ cheddar on pie before (though I suppose Jack might be good, I'll have to try it sometime). Back ... la.eats - Oct 30, 1998 by Lothie - View Thread (6 articles) Re: Baked Apple Slices That's something many of us should already know. Apple pie and cheese are old friends in my house. My Betty Crocker Cookbook says ... rec.food.cooking - Oct 14, 1999 by Nancy C Welker - View Thread (2 articles) (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) 1. "THE BIG BOULDER." Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). New York: Oct 13, 1892. Vol. VOL. XXXIX., Iss. No. 15; p. 310 (2 pages): Pg. 310: Sweet corned beef, mealy potatoes and a squash, and apple pie and cheese were most grateful to the appetite, sharpened by my tramp in the cool air. 2. CAROLS OF COOKERY; APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. THE PUMPKIN PYE. WHEN THE CO'N-PONE'S HOT. Arthur Penn. The Bookman; a Review of Books and Life (1895-1933). New York: Jan 1902. Vol. 14, Iss. 5; p. 474 (5 pages) 3. SOME SPRINGTIME VERSE The Bookman; a Review of Books and Life (1895-1933). New York: Jun 1909. Vol. 29, Iss. 4; p. 365 (2 pages) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Mike Irwin Backs Down. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 27, 1891. p. 7 (1 page): Three distinguished citizens were sitting in Pete Steil's yesterday afternoon eating apple pie and cheese. WHY PRINCETON DID NOT ASK BILLY SUNDAY.; A Statement in Defense of the Inhospitable Attitude of the University Authorities Toward That Evangelist. By ANDREW F. WEST, Dean of the Graduate School of Princeton University.ANDREW F. WEST.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 8, 1915. p. 12 (1 page): Mary was one of those sort of uneeda biscuit, peanut butter, gelatin and pimento sort of women. Martha was a beefsteak, baked potato, apple sauce with lemon and nutmeg, coffee and whipped cream, apple pie and cheese sort of women. Like Apple Pie and Cheese Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 3, 1958. p. 21 (1 page) (MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL) Osgood's Predicament, by E. D. B. Stoddard: pp. 52-61 p. 54 1 match of 'apple pie and cheese' in: Title: Harper's new monthly magazine. / Volume 27, Issue 157 Publisher: Harper & Bros. Publication Date: June, 1863 It consisted of stewed beans, boiled beef, apple-pie, and cheese. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 02:21:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:21:30 -0500 Subject: Apple Pie and Cheese (1873) Message-ID: I forgot to check www.newspaperarchive.com Decatur Republican - 2/18/1886 ...Dlpfo, liavpo, depot, or Courier. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The Good Use Little Jake Made.....it AND threw out behind him some APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The ground was comparatively.....t suppose we shall have a thing but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE If he gets it." But she was.....was much that was good to eat but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. If he had been left to.. Decatur, Illinois Thursday, February 18, 1886 1007 k Indiana Weekly Messenger - 4/21/1886 ...t suppose we shall 'have a thing but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE if he gets it. But she was.....township, or county. perton, wltb this book, can lecome a succeasfutAatnt. For lull.....it AND threw out jehind him some APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The ground was comparatively.....was ninch that was good to eat but APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. H he had been left to himself.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 21, 1886 875 k Daily Advocate - 12/30/1892 ...se Or bate my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. AND CHEESE No alien i', sir.....disease MATHERS, ___ JlathervUle, Miss. Our book oa Blood AND Skin Diseases mailed free.....I can't understAND a word of Life. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. Your "avored creams ana ices.....come to feeze, The best of all Is APPLE PIE AND CHEESE Field. The men's furnishers.. Newark, Ohio Friday, December 30, 1892 697 k Freeborn County Standard - 11/14/1894 ...Or bate my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. The PIE my Julia makes me.....0. DAY, Publisher. ALtERT LEA, MINN. APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. Full irmny a xlnful notion.....please, I'll take another plateful Of APPLE PIE AND AND CHEESE Xo alien It, sir, That's.....Dyspeptic come to feaze, Tho best of all la APPLE pic AND CHEESE Though ribalds moy decry.. Albert Lea, Minnesota Wednesday, November 14, 1894 761 k Adams Sentinel - 4/1/1850 ...then settling cm the window .sill APPLE PIE, pumpkin PIE AND CHEESE; cold pan-cake.....house in Lowell "Breakfast cream AND mince PIE; there were fresh biscuit AND other ct.....w-antinjr. Second course, hot pancakes AND CHEESE. Supper -hot cakes, as. light AND fair.....air. AND in tin h'.-i.'d. breathe devj) AND i'ull to Tinl tuin if the AND of it. So.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, April 01, 1850 913 k Daily Advocate - 7/24/1893 ...with a last contemptuous sniff AND an APPLE-PIE AND-CHEESE look in his eye he made a bee.....Texas Siftings. Homey amp; Edmiston's Book Store. Is the place to get your Pictures.....style. Look at that CHEESE f Where is the APPLE PIE a rod in diameter, built of ten.....best for your money. Homey amp; Edmiston's Book Store No. 9 North Third Street. The.. Newark, Ohio Monday, July 24, 1893 717 k Elyria Republican - 9/6/1883 ...little impression on the eatables. Oh APPLE PIE, mince PIE AND CHEESE; Oh ram, lamb.....where the republicans of Kansas, AND Iowa, AND Indiana AND Maine, AND most of.....Afternoon, Sept. 7th. Pass the news along, AND come AND hear him. MAKE your preparations.....character is perfect, hia recorditelear, AND his ability large. He is the cleanest AND.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, September 06, 1883 713 k Landmark - 11/27/1890 ...with vinegar AND popper, doughnuts, APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. A Charlotte Russo made. out.....With mock solemnity he opened his pookot-book ami presented a crisp now bill. sure.....cold bread, hot johnny cuke, doughnuts, PIE, cookies, CHEESE AND coffee." AND for j.....fairy. The of Clovernook Fnrra was a flcsh-AND blood, helpful sprity call AND sugar, AND.. Statesville, North Carolina Thursday, November 27, 1890 852 k Daily Review - 12/28/1892 ...appease Or bato my soul's devotion To APPLE PIE AND CHEESE. AND CHEESE No alien it, sir.....a wonder. St. Louis Republic. APPLE Pic ami CHEESE. Your Savored creams aod'ices AND your.....Dyeptpticscoroe to feaxo, The of all to PIE AND ctecso SISTER ELEANOR. Her face hu.....Flo Miller, Mrs. Bender AND Misses Sadie AND Gladys Findler. itlucuu H. A. Kltch AND.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, December 28, 1892 714 k Idaho Tri Weekly Statesman - 7/17/1873 ...dairy, honse -AND everything, in APPLE-PIE AND CHEESE, AND rising cattle. There is.....on tick, you can't fail of paying ont AND making big fuoney A -OOOD ox. cow o ainl.....American or importea, in of its sales AND its icputation restorative. FoTjflSso'f.. Boise, Idaho Thursday, July 17, 1873 630 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 03:02:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:02:55 -0500 Subject: "Carnal Classifieds" Glossary (1982; Havana Good Time (1923) Message-ID: I didn't find "shit happens" in SCREW magazine in 1982-1983. This "carnal classifieds" glossary might be of interest. It's probably earlier than 1982: SCREW began in 1968. SCREW might have suspended publication recently. All the escort ads are now in the VILLAGE VOICE and NEW YORK PRESS, or in late-night ads on Manhattan Cable. SCREW was "of its time," though. 4 January 1982, SCREW, pg. 44, col. 1: GLOSSARY B/B...Body Builder/Building B/D...Bondage and Discipline Bestiality...Sex with Animals B/F or B/M...Black Female or Male C/B...(Involving the) Cock/Balls C/P...Corporal Punishment D/T...Dominance Training; Dirty Talk English...Whipping (esp. with riding crop, quirt, taws, etc.) F/F...Fist Fucking/Fucker French...Orally stimulate the sexual organs F/S...Face Sitting/Sitter G/E...Golden Enema (administered with urine) (Not in Lighter or Green?--ed.) G/M...Gay Male Greek...Anal Worship/Penetration G/S (Golden Shower)...Urinate (on partner) G/T...Genital Torture H/H...High Heels H/T...Head Trip (mental scene) Infibulate...Pierce: nipples, genitalia, etc. (OED has "infibulate" from 1623. It's listed as "rare." "Infibulation" is from 1650. Neither is for "pierce"--ed.) J/O...Jerk Off (masturbate) L/L...Leather/Levis "m"...masochist (bottom person) M/F...Male/Female Neophyte or Novice...Beginner (inexperienced) P/P...Photo/Phone; Pot/Poppers Pros...Prostitute/Professional Models Rim...French the Anal Area Roman...Orgy Inclinations R/S...Rough Stuff "S"...Sadist (Top Person) (Col. 2--ed.) SASE...Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope Scat...Scatalogy (shit) S/F...Suck/Fuck; Submissive Female S&M...Sado/Masochistic Tendencies TS...Transsexual T/T...Tit Torture; Toilet Training TV...Transvestite VA...Verbal Abuse W/E...Well Endowed W/F or W/M...White Female or Male 12 September 1983, SCREW, pg. 3: Win Cheap-Shit Prizes! (Lighter and Green have "cheap shot," but no "cheap shit"?--ed.) 26 September 1983, SCREW, pg. 16, col. 1: Before that Commie killjoy Fidel Castro took over the island, Cuba was famed as a carnal Carib playground for well-heeled wastrels of the Western world (hence the origin of that oft-used postcard inscription "Havana wonderful time"). From posh pleasure palace3s to (Col. 2--ed.) the two-dollar trick-joints lining the light-less alleys of Crib Street, Cuba's capital was a seething sin town, with booze, cooze and casinos among the major attractions. "If you can't find it in Havana," went the popular saying, "then you'll just have to look for it someplace else." Truer words were rarely, if ever, spoken. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indianapolis Star - 9/16/1923 ...crimes today. -A young man likes to HAVANA GOOD TIME. The things which go to make up.....this GOOD" TIMEr (as he knows a GOOD' TIME) are beyond hie reach with the pay.....have had has without a cloudt done more GOOD than harm and we fully guarantee every.....In fact, if thing, it Is-getting worse. The TIME has come 'when in many cases they shoot.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, September 16, 1923 780 k Keystone Courier - 3/5/1880 ...married ladiee. HUMOROUS. Hrant's HAVANA GOOD.TIME. When a soldier is ill he becomes a.....vilh kerosene and applfing IP tbe hill. A GOOD dairy cow, during ten jfsrs of will.....the opinion that they don't pay. Now is the TIME to think about how the garden can be.....of his broth. Nit really necemary to spoil GOOD brandy by putting poor mince pies into.. Connellsville, Pennsylvania Friday, March 05, 1880 579 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 03:35:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:35:30 -0500 Subject: Quarters (1983) Message-ID: "Quarters" is one of the most popular of drinking games. It's not in the OED. I don't know if American "drinking games" will be in the OXFORD ENCYLCOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. I remember it in the late 1970s-early 1980s. September 1983, NATIONAL LAMPOON, pg. 79, col. 1 ad: QUARTERS OFFICIAL GAME GLASS GRAB YOUR FRIENDS, GET SOME BEER THE OFFICIAL QUARTERS GAME-GLASS IS HERE!!! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(I searched for "quarters" + "game" + "glass" + beer") Classified Ad 3 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 28, 1978. p. C11 (1 page) (Illegible--ed.) The Day Liberty Lost Her Head; The Great Pastime of Bar Bets The Statue of Liberty Ploy By Joseph P. Mastrangelo. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 22, 1979. p. B1 (2 pages) (Illegible--ed.) Leonards, Neighborhood Bar; A Classic of Its Kind, Pub in Wheaton Is Home for 300 Regulars Leonard's: A Classic Neighborhood Bar By Bob Levey Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 30, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages) (Not here--ed.) Take Advantage Of the Home Field; 2-Minute Drill By Phyllis C. Richman and Bob Kelleter. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 22, 1984. p. L1 (2 pages) (Illegible--ed.) THE BEACH; Ocean City Ritual Lures The Young and Restless Summer Season Is Under Way With Ocean City's Rowdy Ritual Human Tide Rolls Onto Ocean City Streets By Arthur S. Brisbane Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 27, 1984. p. A1 (3 pages) (Second Page): "During Memorial Day weekend we sold a lot of what you call quarter glasses. You try to flip a quarter into the glass and if you miss you take a drink of beer. You play until you fall down." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 07:31:05 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 02:31:05 EST Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad Message-ID: http://www.tvgameshows.net/scoreboard.htm MONDAY, JAN. 26 Jeopardy!: Wagering was important going into Final Jeopardy! as champion Lili Williams and Rob Poodiack each had $12,000 at that point. For the third straight day, no one came up with the correct final response. Category: Latin Lingo. Answer: this three-word phrase, familiar in the U.S., originated in an ancient poem and described assembling foods to make salad. Correct response: what is E Pluribus Unum? Williams made the more conservative wager and ended with $6,800 to retain the title and a two-day total of $15,400. JEOPARDY! watcher and ADS member David Shulman spotted this...After this question, JEOPARDY! host Alex Trebek had one-too-many salads and drove his car into a ditch. "E PLURIBUS UNUM," one out of many, is how Virgil described making a salad. There are many Google hits. Shulman told me that some restaurants called their salads "E Pluribus Unum." I checked Newspaperarchive.com. There are 29 hits, but nothing to indicate a threat to "Caesar." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Approximately 29 Results Woodland Daily Democrat - 7/10/1895 ...to bEing my dEath. MontrEal WitnEss. "E PLURIBUS UNUM." ThE circumstancEs attEnding.....a vEllum bound brochurE) ThE pricE of this book is f 10. Mrs. Nurich NonsEnsE You can't.....poEm dEvotEd to a dEscription of a cErtain SALAD In thE rhyming rEcipE hE givEs.....thE adoption of thE lEgEnd "B PLURIBUS UNUM" as thE motto of thE UnitEd.. Woodland, California Wednesday, July 10, 1895 811 k Salisbury Times - 10/6/1958 ...D. Thompson of REhoboth BEach. ThE motto, E PLURIBUS UNUM, which is Engrav Ed on UnitEd.....for SALADs that tastEs good. Too many SALAD for wEight watchE rs arE onEs wE'd.....of grEEn cabbagE and citrus fruit. This SALAD can ring an intErEsting mEnu changE.. Salisbury, Maryland Monday, October 06, 1958 522 k News - 7/29/1997 ...ConsidEr thE motto on thE GrEat SEal, "E PLURIBUS UNUM" onE out of many, h E said. ThE.....comEs from a poEm by Virgil about making a SALAD. A SALAD is not a bad mEtaphor for.....AmErica, sincE thE ingrEdiEnts of a SALAD stay sE paratE, unlikE in thE mElting.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, July 29, 1997 620 k Frederick Post - 7/29/1997 ...ConsidEr thE motto on thE GrEat SEal, "E PLURIBUS UNUM" onE out of many, h E said. ThE.....comEs from a poEm by Virgil about making a SALAD. A SALAD is not a bad mEtaphor for.....AmErica, sincE thE ingrEdiEnts of a SALAD stay sE paratE, unlikE in thE mElt ing.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, July 29, 1997 599 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 8/10/1966 ...Adams and Thomas JEffErson suggEstEd "E PLURIBUS UNUM" as thE motto of thE sEal of.....STRAWBERRY PRESERVES 39c WIS. SWEET PEAS 4 SALAD DRESSING 39C SALTINE CRACKERS Mb. 21.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, August 10, 1966 674 k Progress - 3/12/1953 ...cErtificatE" and "EstablishmEnts." In "E PLURIBUS UNUM" thE "E" is backwards, thE "P.....of split cornbrcad accompaniEd by fruit SALAD. Worsf CountErfE itEr Still in BusinEss.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 12, 1953 685 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 6/30/1955 ...scroll on which is inscribEd thE motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM" OnE Out of Many. ThosE prEsEnt.....s gift. ShE carriEd a whitE prayEr book, chid and stE phanotis. Miss Mary LouisE.....to mayonnaisE: sErvE ovEr hard-cookEd Egg SALAD. hart. Mrs. Raymond Ross, Mrs. was.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 30, 1955 1129 k Bradford Era - 8/31/1953 ...John Adams is crEditEd with thE motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM." NEw Star in any Lodging Show.....in luinmEr hEat than a crisp, cool SALAD. And up SALADs ErE bE ttEr than thE.. Bradford, Pennsylvania Monday, August 31, 1953 752 k Daily Times News - 4/19/1969 ...on U. S. coins mintEd in 1787; "E PLURIBUS UNUM" was usEd in 1787; "E PLURIBUS UNUM' Was.....onions, friEd okra, candlEd yams, pEach SALAD, bEEt picklE s, slicEd tomatoEs, and.. Burlington, North Carolina Saturday, April 19, 1969 845 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/31/1956 ...A BrEEd's Hill, nEarby. did thE motto., "E PLURIBUS UNUM" first appEar on U.S. coins? In.....WintEr '5G issuE of our complEtE pattErn book Basic FASHION a complEtE sEwing guidE.....15 What SimplE Simon wantEd 16 DislikEs 18 SALAD vEgEtablEs 20 Mountain ridgE 21 AngEr.. Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 31, 1956 778 k From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Feb 8 08:51:55 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:51:55 -0000 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" Message-ID: Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch with the definition of brothel. In the case of the former this can be nautch, nautch house or nautch joint. In the case of the latter, it is invariably in combination, again with house or joint. While the chronology of these cites - all 20C - does indeed suggest some form of conflation/confusion, I should add that in UK usage notch, for vagina, has existed since the early 17C; I have cites for 1613, 1656, 1660 and onwards. However it never appears in a brothel combination prior to 20C. Nor do there appear to be UK examples thereof. Likewise, such combs. as notch girl and notch moll, both prostitutes, are post-1900 and only US. My own feeling would be that nautch, with its roots in the stereotyped exotic and by extension erotic Orient, is most likely the root word, however spelt, for the brothel terms. Notch, in these cases being either mis- or quasi-phonetically spelt. Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 09:19:17 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 04:19:17 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry); SAT Message-ID: JFK This one has been making the rounds recently. It was used in a NEW YORK POST story about "The Real Kerry." JFK "JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4052226/ At St. Paul's, a posh prep school in New Hampshire, Kerry was not popular. On the hockey team, he was called "Keep-the-Puck Kerry" because he didn't like to pass to his teammates as he skated toward the goal. Barging into pickup games on the school's frozen ponds, he was known for stealing the puck from younger boys and shooting it into the woods. At a Republican Episcopalian school he was a Democrat and a Roman Catholic who worshiped John F. Kennedy. The boys reportedly joked that his own initials?also JFK?stood for "Just For Kerry." (Kerry told NEWSWEEK that the nickname is "bogus," made up a few years ago by a mean-spirited Boston Globe columnist.) Prep-school boys of that era were not supposed to grasp or grind; the ideal was "effortless grace." Kerry committed the cardinal schoolboy sin of showing his ambition. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Michael Paine's cousin in the White House !!! ... and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his initials, ``JFK,?? as if the ... as one said, joked that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.?? He even ... alt.assassination.jfk - Apr 14, 2003 by Gary Buell - View Thread (3 articles) He was an avid hockey and soccer player. He also founded a political> > society; and it was obvious he was smitten by the Kennedy mystique.> > After a visit to Boston in the spring of 1960, Kerry was heading for> > North Station to return to St. Paul's when he saw a crowd gathering.> > It was a Kennedy rally.> > ``I was very taken. It just captured you, the whole excitement, and> > the possibility of change. The next day I gave a speech about why he> > should be president.??> > Kerry was mocked by some at St. Paul's as a Kennedy wannabe. He'd sign> > his papers and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his> > initials, ``JFK,?? as if the political affinity were preordained.> > Behind his back, classmates rolled their eyes and, as one said, joked> > that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.??> > He even briefly dated Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy's half sister, and> > was at the Bouvier mansion in Newport, R.I., one summer day when his> > idol, Jack Kennedy, happened by and invited him out for a sail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SAT "SAT" means just that. It no longer officially means "Scholastic Aptitude Test." It could just as easily mean "Kentucky Fried Chicken." The new movie THE PERFECT SCORE tries something for "SAT," but I forget it. "Satisfying And Tempting"? One web site has "Scholastic Apparel Tribulation." Has anything else caught on? From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Feb 8 13:41:51 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:41:51 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207113341.02efcb00@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? dInIs >HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: > >"1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of homosexuality)." > >from ca. 1942-5 > >AND > >"2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." > >from 1953. > >Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: > >"1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence >is lacking]" > >I doubt this derivation of sense 1 from sense 2. I speculate (without any >decisive evidence) that "asshole buddy" began -- during WW II or earlier -- >as a casual humorous military alteration of "foxhole buddy" meaning the man >who shares one's foxhole. This would give sense 1 first. No doubt >double-entendre was obvious from the start or very soon, and I think sense >2 likely was attached to the already existing phrase. Was sense 2 ever >common, outside of jokes based on sense 1? > >"Foxhole buddy" is still used to mean "Army/Marine buddy from the war", I >believe. > >Tending to support the derivation from "foxhole buddy" is the rarity of >alternatives such as "asshole friend" or "asshole pal" or "asshole >comrade". It's virtually always "buddy" ... because, I think, it originated >with the establishment and maintenance of foxholes by the "buddy system" >(not the *"friend system" or whatever). > >Around 1960-70, I often heard "asshole buddy" = "very close friend", and it >had (as HDAS says) no homosexual implication, even when it could naturally >have had (e.g., "He got his promotion because he's the boss's asshole >buddy", which had in my experience a very different meaning from something >like "... because he's the boss's lover/etc."). > >In my experience (not necessarily representative) "asshole buddy" (sense 1) >is usually or almost always spoken with second-word stress, in keeping with >"asshole" acting as an adjective = "good": thus "my close BUDDY", "my bosom >BUDDY", "my asshole BUDDY" (also "my fat BUDDY", "my old BUDDY", etc.). > >I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the same >stress? Modifiers which denote the context of a friendship will, I think, >usually have (first-word) stress: "my FISHING buddy", "my POKER buddy", "my >ARMY buddy". And probably "my FOXHOLE buddy" (can anyone confirm or refute >this one?). Is there "ASSHOLE buddy" on a similar basis in conventional >speech? In sense 1, or 2, or maybe in both? Maybe some of the list scholars >can repair my ignorance? > >-- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 8 15:28:05 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:28:05 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? I haven't addressed the etymology of "buddy" since it was already old by the time "asshole buddy" appeared (approx. 1940's). I suppose probably "buddy" is etymologically a simplification of "brother" but I'm not sure whether there is firm evidence one way or the other. Or is the question about some specific sense of "buddy"? "Buddy system" has been conventional since well before WW II, in the military and otherwise (e.g., in swimming). My speculation is not about the origin of "buddy" ... nor of "asshole" ... my question is how the latter word came to modify the former with the sense "good"/"close"/"intimate" (one might think that "asshole buddy" would most naturally mean "buddy who is an asshole" rather than "close buddy"). -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 8 15:40:42 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:40:42 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: Another straightdope question. Amazingly modern expression, evidently. Is one form more British and the other US? I just did a quicky search of Newspaperarchive, and found a 1918 Washington Post story(written by a British correspondent in Paris) for "mind boggles." The first "boggles the mind" cites show up in 1969-70 US. Sam Clements From imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK Sun Feb 8 18:11:10 2004 From: imran at BITS.BRIS.AC.UK (Imran Ghory) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:11:10 +0000 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? In-Reply-To: <20040208154207.6A5656375C@bits.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > I just did a quicky search of Newspaperarchive, and found a 1918 = > Washington Post story(written by a British correspondent in Paris) for = > "mind boggles." That terms on the OED's appeals list, here's a citation I sent them, "We are bound to believe our record until belief is shown to be impossible; but if the MSS, in attributing works to ancient authors, only furnish us with a thesis to prove, there is opened a vista of scepticism and material for dissertions at which the mind boggles." - The American Journal of Philology (Volume 20: Number 4 (1899)) p. 439. Imran -- http://bits.bris.ac.uk/imran From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 8 17:46:29 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:46:29 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <15b.2d400cf9.2d575915@aol.com> Message-ID: What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are personal initials now to be antedated? At 04:19 AM 2/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >JFK > > This one has been making the rounds recently. It was used in a NEW YORK >POST story about "The Real Kerry." > >JFK "JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE) > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4052226/ >At St. Paul's, a posh prep school in New Hampshire, Kerry was not popular. On >the hockey team, he was called "Keep-the-Puck Kerry" because he didn't like >to pass to his teammates as he skated toward the goal. Barging into pickup >games on the school's frozen ponds, he was known for stealing the puck from >younger boys and shooting it into the woods. At a Republican Episcopalian >school he >was a Democrat and a Roman Catholic who worshiped John F. Kennedy. The boys >reportedly joked that his own initials???also JFK???stood for "Just For >Kerry." >(Kerry told NEWSWEEK that the nickname is "bogus," made up a few years ago >by a >mean-spirited Boston Globe columnist.) Prep-school boys of that era were not >supposed to grasp or grind; the ideal was "effortless grace." Kerry committed >the cardinal schoolboy sin of showing his ambition. > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Re: Michael Paine's cousin in the White House !!! >.... and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with his initials, >``JFK,???? as >if the ... as >one said, joked that the initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.???? He even ... >alt.assassination.jfk - Apr 14, 2003 by Gary Buell - View Thread (3 articles) > He was an avid hockey and soccer player. He also founded a political> > >society; and it was obvious he was smitten by the Kennedy mystique.> > >After a >visit to Boston in the spring of 1960, Kerry was heading for> > North >Station to >return to St. Paul's when he saw a crowd gathering.> > It was a Kennedy >rally.> > > ``I was very taken. It just captured you, the whole excitement, and> > > the >possibility of change. The next day I gave a speech about why he> > should be >president.????> > Kerry was mocked by some at St. Paul's as a Kennedy >wannabe. >He'd sign> > his papers and wear his Oxford cotton shirts embossed with >his> > >initials, ``JFK,???? as if the political affinity were preordained.> > Behind >his back, classmates rolled their eyes and, as one said, joked> > that the >initials stood for ``Just For Kerry.????> > He even briefly dated >Jacqueline Bouvier >Kennedy's half sister, and> > was at the Bouvier mansion in Newport, R.I., >one summer day when his> > idol, Jack Kennedy, happened by and invited him >out >for a sail. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 8 18:06:26 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:06:26 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <005401c3ee20$d03a9450$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: Since I assume these terms aren't generally spelled or found in print, the change in spelling would seem to logically follow a change in pronunciation, as Dennis said, i.e., to reflect the gradual merger in AmEng of 'short o' =spelled 'o' and 'open o' =spelled 'au'. It's the same conflation seen in an old Dennis the Menace cartoon, where the family is at a Christmas tree farm and (the merging) Dennis asks, "Do you have any naughty pine?" Thus lexical 'confusion' may have followed the respelling of a generally oral usage to fit American English. Even if two different meanings were originally in use, lexical conflation appears to have followed the phonetic conflation. Possible? At 08:51 AM 2/8/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch >with the definition of brothel. In the case of the former this can be >nautch, nautch house or nautch joint. In the case of the latter, it is >invariably in combination, again with house or joint. While the chronology >of these cites - all 20C - does indeed suggest some form of >conflation/confusion, I should add that in UK usage notch, for vagina, has >existed since the early 17C; I have cites for 1613, 1656, 1660 and >onwards. However it never appears in a brothel combination prior to 20C. >Nor do there appear to be UK examples thereof. Likewise, such combs. as >notch girl and notch moll, both prostitutes, are post-1900 and only US. My >own feeling would be that nautch, with its roots in the stereotyped exotic >and by extension erotic Orient, is most likely the root word, however >spelt, for the brothel terms. Notch, in these cases being either mis- or >quasi-phonetically spelt. > >Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 19:38:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:38:14 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) and SAT (1947) Message-ID: Possibly. I previously reported about LBJ (Little Brown Job). The initials JFK are candidates for slang usage. It's early in the campagin season, but there's every reason for the slang usage of the JFK initials to catch on. If it becomes popular enough, it should be recorded. Slang of other initials have been recorded. For example, there are crash meanings for the airlines TWA and SAS and MIAT. Government agencies such as NASA, FBI, CIA, NSA have slang on their initials. I somehow knew this would happen. I work my ass off, research my ass off, and no one ever says anything good, and I get slammed for something "almost wrong" like this. It's been like that all my life. SAT is in the OED (from 1961). That definition needs to be revised now that "SAT" officially stands for nothing. Here's a trademark. (TRADEMARK) Word Mark SAT Goods and Services IC 016. US 038. G & S: PRINTED TESTS AND TEST BOOKLETS. FIRST USE: 19470500. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19470500 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73080156 Filing Date March 15, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1067665 Registration Date June 14, 1977 Owner (REGISTRANT) COLLEGE ENTRANCE EXAMINATION BOARD NON-PROFIT MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATION NEW YORK 45 COLUMBUS AVENUE NEW YORK NEW YORK 10023 Attorney of Record LOWELL D KERN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19970305 From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:42:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:42:06 -0800 Subject: Thing or Think Message-ID: There was a recent thread on the Honyaku translation list about "I you think X, you've got another XXX coming." I was shocked at the number of people who insisted that only "think" was logical for XXX and that (1) it was absolutely the only correct response or (2) it was the only way they had ever heard it. Until those e-mails, it had never occurred to me that XXX might be think rather than thing! Although I agree with the opinions that "think" is witty, those same opinions also sounded pretty prescriptivist, so I don't thing I'll switch over. Benjamin Barrett From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:43:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) and SAT (1947) In-Reply-To: <200402081938.i18JcgwR018807@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I thought it was an interesting catch and will try to post positive messages in the future. HTH Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM >I work my ass off, >research my ass off, and no one ever says anything good, From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Feb 8 19:58:42 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:58:42 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040208100748.02efb950@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Well, that wasn't my point. Since "buddy" comes from Brit. dial. "butty," and since its connection to "butt" has been claimed, I was just speculating that the connection between "asshole" and "buddy" might not be so far off (anatomically speaking, that is). dInIs >>>Doesn't this speculation all overlook the etymology of 'buddy'? > >I haven't addressed the etymology of "buddy" since it was already old by >the time "asshole buddy" appeared (approx. 1940's). > >I suppose probably "buddy" is etymologically a simplification of "brother" >but I'm not sure whether there is firm evidence one way or the other. > >Or is the question about some specific sense of "buddy"? "Buddy system" has >been conventional since well before WW II, in the military and otherwise >(e.g., in swimming). > >My speculation is not about the origin of "buddy" ... nor of "asshole" ... >my question is how the latter word came to modify the former with the sense >"good"/"close"/"intimate" (one might think that "asshole buddy" would most >naturally mean "buddy who is an asshole" rather than "close buddy"). > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 20:08:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:08:18 EST Subject: International Man of Mystery (1934) Message-ID: INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY--51,400 Google hits, 13,200 Google Groups hits What's the deal with "international man of mystery"? Is there a national man of mystery? Is there an international woman of mystery? Do you have to travel a lot and read a lot of Poe? Maybe I qualify? Certain, Mike Myers popularized "international man of mystery" with his three AUSTIN POWERS movies. But this article uses the term with a straight face: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040216-588396,00.html That's why ricin once enjoyed a certain cachet among international men of mystery. Every spywatcher knows about Bulgarian defector Georgi Markov, who was assassinated in London in 1978 in a ploy that James Bond or Austin Powers would appreciate: a shadowy stalker jabbed Markov in the leg with an umbrella rigged to inject a pellet of ricin under his skin (the killer was never found, but the KGB and the Bulgarian secret service were prime suspects). The following articles probably hit it on the head. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ironwood Daily Globe - 9/11/1934 ...You have been called the INTERNATIONAL "MAN OF MYSTERY" for years. Reputed'y one OF.....He is an economic scholar OF we'1-deserved INTERNATIONAL repute. More thin that, he.....The cruJ cr politics will say the rame MAN was the author also OF the prediction.....precious little patriotism concerned in the INTERNATIONAL shindigs that made a shambles.. Ironwood, Michigan Tuesday, September 11, 1934 804 k Salamanca Republican Press - 5/19/1936 ...JACOBS Tap JOHN BOOTH The INTERNATIONAL -MAN OF MYSTERY No Advance in Prices for This.....the Newberry award for the best juvenile book OF the year, "Caddie Woodlawn." Miss.....has been assistant superintendent and road MAN, will act as foreMAN OF the receiving.....brought with her an autographed copy OF the book, which she has placed on display in the.. Salamanca, New York Tuesday, May 19, 1936 608 k Sheboygan Press - 2/21/1939 ...The Ont., attorney and "INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY" who renounced one-third OF.....the evt nlng, that la formally, Mr. Lebet MAN made adequate reply to s who preceded him.....Trio. WENR. V. M. Virginia Grant, WHBL, MAN on Street, WBBM. Frolics Before 6, WMAQ.....and as she opened her car door a young MAN stepped up with a revolver. He got in the.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, February 21, 1939 794 k Mansfield News Journal - 7/13/1951 ...night clerk at a YMCA than an INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY. He is Alfred Kohlberg. 64year.....influence OF opinion, KoMberg is a busy one-MAN crusade. He makes at least one speech a.....OF the state Health department. Because OF reports OF large numbers OF insects and OF.....consent OF both the board OF directors OF the YM and the executive board OF the.. Mansfield, Ohio Friday, July 13, 1951 643 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/18/1955 ...STORY: A treasure cruise, an INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY and a pretty girl already make.....On those three days teachers will be in the book room on the first floor to issue.....or even known OF, only one complete master OF the difficult art OF knife-throwing. TO.....and the electives indicated at the time OF registration last May. On the first day OF.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, August 18, 1955 654 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/22/1955 ...been retained by Viego Sana, INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY. All they know so far is that.....to the starlit dark, we became aware OF a MAN walking away from us through the deep.....Fatal Beating SUNLAND, Calif, A 91-yearold MAN was in jail today on suspicion OF murder.....last. So. hot and humid that a Hampton MAN, -who'd been fishing in Mills Creek.. Ironwood, Michigan Monday, August 22, 1955 603 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 8/31/1955 ...THE STORT: Viggo Sand, INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, is sailing to Haiti to.....a sequin evening bag and retired with a book. Short ol slugging us, a method which I.....OF this world today spurred pursuers OF a MAN wanted in connection with the rifle.....Beth and 'I are doing here. We are a couple INTERNATIONAL bums. In a modest way I suppose.. Ironwood, Michigan Wednesday, August 31, 1955 796 k Bridgeport Post - 9/20/1955 ...colorful financial figure and INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, v.-as found strangled in his.....risks, however great they may be In the book, are less for Abe RibicOFf than they.....co-executor OF the estate with the slain MAN's mother. Mrs. Stella Rubinstein. said.....REWARD done for Congress j jtf RUBENSTEIN MYSTERY __ CFL convention, the Governor to go.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, September 20, 1955 699 k Lethbridge Herald - 9/21/1955 ...colorful financial figure end INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY, was found strangled in his.....an. Invest. Funds Resources OF Can. ;omm. INTERNATIONAL Average OF Canada Grouped.....K. 6.35 Gods Lake .67 Goldcrest ,18 Golden MAN. 3.60 Goldfields .56 Graham. Bonsquet .30.....in Ihe area to take up positions alons: the INTERNATIONAL border as a means OF Hockin? an.. Lethbridge, Alberta Wednesday, September 21, 1955 798 k From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 8 21:38:08 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:38:08 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: And, after a poster at straightdope suggested that Wodehouse used the phrase "the imagination boggles" frequently, I searched newspaperarchive. There was a 1908 cite for "imagination boggles." From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 8 22:07:59 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:07:59 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <005401c3ee20$d03a9450$0b01a8c0@green> Message-ID: >Like Jonathan Lighter, I have found citations for both nautch and notch >with the definition of brothel. Oops, I should noted that a Hindi origin of "nautch" appears in the Cassell slang dictionary. Sorry. -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 22:15:49 2004 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:15:49 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Thing=20or=20Think?= Message-ID: What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always understood it as a clever and sensible statement. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Feb 8 22:18:23 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:18:23 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_Thing_or_Think?= Message-ID: As in so many other areas, I agree with heavy metal legends Judas Priest here, and it's always been "you've got another thing coming" for me. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Steve Boatti Sent: Sun 2/8/2004 4:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: ? ? ? Thing or Think What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always understood it as a clever and sensible statement. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 8 22:59:00 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:59:00 EST Subject: "Life is uncertain...eat dessert first" (1985) Message-ID: "Life is uncertain, eat dessert first"- --sign on the Buttercup Bakery Shop, 973 Second Avenue, New York, NY (known for its cupcakes--ed.) This phrase has been used by many bakeries, Who said it? Where did it start? Does it comes from a bumper sticker? Was it said in 1985 at Yale? EAT DESSERT FIRST--7,610 Google hits, 7,350 Google Groups hits EAT DESSERT FIRST + LIFE IS UNCERTAIN--3,740 Google hits, 4,030 Google Groups hits EAT DESSERT FIRST + LIFE IS SHORT--1,440 Google hits, 1,129 Google Group hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Intermittent Login Problems ... then restart the system. this is in the last issue of the PipeLine. Martin McDonald SGI Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first. comp.sys.sgi - Feb 28, 1990 by martin - View Thread (6 articles) Re: The SuperBowl was in 3-D again... I wanted to post this Sunday, but we were in the middle of recovering from a fairly massive system crash on lopez. We did take a ... rec.video - Feb 1, 1990 by Life is uncertain. Eat dessert first. - View Thread (5 articles) Re: Re: weight loss ... Manoj Patel, (The board of trustees do not let NCSU Dispatch. me represent the university - sorry) Eat dessert first - you never know what's going to happen. sci.med - Aug 13, 1989 by DISPATCH at NCSUVM.BITNET - View Thread (65 articles) Re: new Sun type-4 keyboards ... . (Opinions expressed are my own, and not officially endorsed by BBN.) Yeah, what he said :-) -- Matt Landau Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first. ... comp.sys.sun - May 25, 1989 by Matt Landau - View Thread (23 articles) Learning the MAC ... Thanks, Kevin ----- Words to live by: Life is uncertain, eat dessert FIRST! ... comp.sys.mac.programmer - May 1, 1989 by Kevin Flanagan - View Thread (3 articles) INFO-MAC Digest V4 #78 ... Richard Crane "Life is uncertain; eat dessert first." --- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 10:17:44 EDT From: ms1g at andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Steven ... mod.mac - Jun 17, 1986 by Moderator Dwayne Virnau... - View Thread (1 article) INFO-MAC Digest V3 #48 ... Any reponse would be appreciated, either to the net or directly to me on BITNET: CRANER at YALEVMX Thanks, Richard S. Crane "Eat Dessert First, Life is Uncertain ... fa.info-mac - Oct 16, 1985 by info-mac at cca.UUCP - View Thread (1 article)In order to show you (TRADEMARK) Word Mark LIFE IS UNCERTAIN, EAT DESSERT FIRST! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930614. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930614 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74532010 Filing Date June 1, 1994 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition March 7, 1995 Registration Number 1896678 Registration Date May 30, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) Pour la France!, Inc. CORPORATION COLORADO 650 South Cherry Street, Suite 1200 Denver COLORADO 80222 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Robert L. Brown Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date June 8, 2002 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 9/29/1993 ...The Washington Post "Life's uncertain. EAT DESSERT FIRST." It's a playful bumper-sticker.....younger. Initially, her kids did EAT the DESSERT FIRST and not the rest of the meal.....cookie, a cup of pudding may entice them to EAT it FIRST, Satter says. But often they'll.....Telegfam Wednesday, September 29, 1 993 C1 DESSERT FIRST? You're kidding Carols Sugarman.. Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, September 29, 1993 474 k Frederick Post - 7/2/1993 ...kid will tell you that "life is short, EAT DESSERT FIRST." My philosophy on restaurants.....my companions reminded me we came to EAT a meal, not munch on chocolates. I was.....on the way out. OK, so far we've covered DESSERT and chocolate. Is there anything I've.....and winner 7 days a week No credit cards FIRST, right from the start, something needs.. Frederick, Maryland Friday, July 02, 1993 505 k Salamanca Republican Press - 7/13/1932 ...appetite completely destroyed if you EAT DESSERT FIRST of all. not said Freddy. have.....said as he took another. should really EAT sandwiches Emily said. have your.....and juicy it she added as she took her FIRST bite of the peach. They ate until.....that's what makes a picnic a picnic to EAT lots and lots and said Freddy happily.. Salamanca, New York Wednesday, July 13, 1932 730 k Daily Independent Journal - 1/16/1951 ...to Onkel Choe Stalin. t One should EAT DESSERT FIRST, a medico advises. Maybe so.....major new talents on the literary horizon, book critic David Dempsey says that readers.....and bag as many pheasants as they can EAT. More vexing are the tasks of an American.....industry seems fated to be one of the FIRST casualties of war preparedness. And.. San Rafael, California Tuesday, January 16, 1951 632 k From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 8 23:03:19 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:03:19 -0800 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <200402082215.i18MFvBj012385@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: This is exactly the sort of posts that occurred on Honyaku. Yet I don't understand why "thing" is any less logical than "the whole nine yards", "the Big Apple" or "the sun sets/rises". Sure, there might be historical reasons for such expressions, but I've never had trouble using or understanding the intent of any of these idioms or "thing". As far as "think" being logical, though, it isn't. The unexpected part of speech is ungrammatical, which makes it witty, though certainly no more logical. I don't see any reason to switch to think any more than to abandon the illogical "the sun sets/rises". Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Steve Boatti >--------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------- > >What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got >another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've >got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes >sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with >another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak >perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always >understood it as a clever and sensible statement. > >Steve Boatti >sjb72 at columbia.edu > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 00:10:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:10:24 EST Subject: Riviera Salad; Seabreeze Salad Message-ID: Some stuff from a visit to my local Food Emporium. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RIVIERA SALAD RIVIERA SALAD--215 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit Fresh Express offers "Riviera"--"Salad Blend with Butter Lettuce & Radicchio." Dole has a salad blend called "European." Did Alain Ducasse popularize "Riviera Salad"? The first "Riviera salad" cite below has "SPAM" and is probably not authentic, IMHO. (GOOGLE) http://www.melborponsti.com/rdetail.php?source=melborponsti&record=spam0210 Riviera Salad 6 tb Cooking oil 2 tb Vinegar 1 ts Prepared mustard 1/2 ts Thyme 1/4 ts Salt 1/8 ts Freshly-ground black pepper 1 Garlic clove; minced 1 lb Potatoes -; (3 medium) 1/2 lb Fresh green beans 1 sm Red onion; thinly sliced 1 qt Bite-size lettuce pieces 1 cn Spam luncheon meat - (12 oz); cubed 1 cn Pitted black olives - (3 1/2 oz); drained (GOOGLE) Menu "Stetson" - Appetizers, salads ... garlic, corn), 550, 358. Riviera salad (tomatoes, boiled carrot, green peas, boiled sousage, eggs, black calvair), 515, 335. Salad cowboy ... www.stetson.kz/appetizer_e.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages River Ranch englishmenucontent3 ... RIVIERA SALAD, tuna, mussels, shrinp, olives and black peper.....5.00. ... www.restaurant-hetcarillon.nl/engMenu.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages DUCASSE: Flavors of France ... Some of the recipes, such as The Riviera Salad, Like A Ni?oise and the Saut?ed Sea Bream with Clams, White Beans, and Girolles may scare off all but the most ... www.cyber-kitchen.com/cookbookreviews/review016.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages TYPOS.COM.CY - The online newspaper of Cyprus ... 3.45. HAM SALAD (Ham, green peppers, peas, mushrooms, rice, 2.80. RIVIERA SALAD (Onions, tuna fish, black olives, egg), 2.55. CHICKEN ... www.typos.com.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=439 - 45k - Cached - Similar pages V A Restaurant & Wine Bar in Westport, Ct. serving California & ... ... vinaigrette, 6.95. CAESAR SALAD, 4.95. RIVIERA SALAD roasted beets, oranges, fennel, baby spinach and citrus vinaigrette, 6.95. NAPA FIELD ... www.culinarymenus.com/vrestaurant.htm - 79k - Cached - Similar pages Left Bank ... 7.75 Riviera Salad Ruby red grapefruit, avocados, spring red torpedo onions and arugula tossed with citrus and Champagne vinaigrette. ... 66.119.39.52/ 94025COMRestaurants.nsf/0/57c5b62933400549852566ac00017e64?OpenDocument - 21k - Cached - Similar pages ALAIN DUCASSE - LE LOUIS XV - LA CARTE ... Grand Riviera salad : Mix of salad, herbs and summer vegetables, tuna belly, pickled anchovies ? and poached quail eggs, bread rubbed with tomato and basil. ... www.alain-ducasse.com/_old/louisxv_explique_us.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages A Menu from the Louis XV ... GRAND RIVIERA SALAD: black truffle, artichoke, celery, fennel and endive mixed with wild and ... Menu is copyright Alain Ducasse and is used without permission. shakti.trincoll.edu/~rlai/tssi/menu.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages More GFCFDiet Recipes ... Riviera Salad 6 medium potatoes (about 2 lbs.) 1 cup prepared low calorie oil and vinegar dressing 3 cups assorted fresh vegetables (trimmed asparagus, green ... www.geocities.com/ARNFL/recipes2.html - 72k - Cached - Similar pages ShopFoodEx.com Fresh Express Prepacked Riviera Salad Mix, Butter lettuce and radicchio. Reviews, Shopping Cart, 0 items. Bestsellers, 01. Dole Prepacked "Just Lettuce" Salad Mix. ... www.shopfoodex.com/ catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_497&products_id=2778 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages St. Maarten - St. Martin Restaurants: Web-surfers' Reviews January ... ... We had a Salad Riviera (Salad greens, olive, tuna, anchovy, sweet pepper, scallions, hard-boiled egg) - a Salad Nigoise on steroids - and a bit of tuna on a ... www.gobeach.com/restrant0602.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mountain Democrat - 5/1/1981 ...SALAD combination nowadays. The RIVIERA SALAD Platter picture includes lettuce, but.....of overcrowding. (For details consult the book "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer or.....being used in scrumptious SALADs, like the RIVIERA SALAD Platter pictured here. SALADs.....cooled, cut into squares and serve with SALAD. Cold souffle is good mixed with.. Placerville, California Friday, May 01, 1981 510 k News Post Leader - 9/29/1993 ...Italian SALAD Mix 99 or 8-oz. RIVIERA SALAD Mix Fresh Express 10-oz.pkg. Pear.. Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, September 29, 1993 409 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SEABREEZE SALAD SEABREEZE SALAD--18 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits SEA BREEZE SALAD--17 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits The Food Emporium has a new "Southern Tsunami" sushi bar display. The company is AFC Corp., www.afcsushi.com. It claims there are 1,400 stores throughout 45 U.S. states and Canada with sushi bar locations. "Seabreeze salad" interested me. It seems a simple name for a salad with something from the sea in it. There aren't a whole lot of hits for it. Chowhound's Tampa (FL) "Seabreeze salad" is obviously very different--is it a regional item there? (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: bmn (bmn at iglou.com) Subject: Recipe Help for "Seabreeze Salad"??? Newsgroups: alt.food.sushi Date: 1999/03/04 At a place where we get sushi in Louisville, KY, they have portions of" Seabreeze Salad". The label says it comes from AFC Corp, Compton, CA.The label says it contains the following: "Seaweed, agar-agar, sesame seeds, fungus, chili pepper, sesame seed oil, soybean oil, palm oil, sugar, salt, high fructose corn syrup, distilled vinegar, FD&C yellow No. 5, FD&C blue no. 1." It is in very thin strips mostly. We kind of like it but the oil is a bit heavy tasting (and feeling). I also don't know what sort of seaweed they use. I also don't know which kind of "fungus" to which they'rereferring. Does anyone have a recipe for this? Maybe one with better ingredients than corn syrup and palm oil? ;-) (GOOGLE) Chowhound's Florida Message Board: seabreeze/goody-- seize the day ... The Seabreeze Salad is like many others found in old Tampa restaurants, with ham and a variety of cheeses. Spanish Bean Soup is always a winner. ... www.chowhound.com/south/boards/ florida/messages/9446.html - 9k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > Chowhound's Florida Message Board: A perfect Chowhound weekend > ... Began with a great Seabreeze salad with lots of cheese (tiny pieces of parm, swiss and american), ham, tomato, onion, and romaine and iceberg lettuce. ... www.chowhound.com/south/boards/ florida/messages/6087.html - 7k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 6/21/1984 ...999 reg. SAVE J.G. Durand 7-Pc. "SEABREEZE" SALAD Sets SAVE Proctor-Silex.....99 By Leonard Silver. Sets include: crystal SALAD bowl with silverplated trim, two SALAD.....Less ...5.00 coated plate. SAVE Three Piece SALAD Bowl Sets Make Great Gifts "By mail. 21.. Frederick, Maryland Thursday, June 21, 1984 937 k Frederick Post - 7/14/1988 ...I buy one any size I PROCfFFl H GAMRIF SEA BREEZE SALAD combines savory morsels of.....in a bid to regain a place in the Guinness Book of World Records. "Three. Two. One. Dig.....is well worth the extra effort. In SEA BREEZE SALAD , the home economists at the.....savor a new taste in SEAfood SALADs. SEA BREEZE SALAD 1 pound firm white fish fillets.. Frederick, Maryland Thursday, July 14, 1988 542 k Lethbridge Herald - 7/13/1954 ...in Britain. The Herald's Daily Recipe SEA BREEZE SALAD tablespoons plain gelatin cup.....sugar teaspoon salt 2 cups cooked shrimp SALAD dressing. Soften gelatin in cold water.. Lethbridge, Alberta Tuesday, July 13, 1954 757 k Mountain Democrat - 3/10/1978 ...a kiss of SEA Prepared with a kiss ol SEA BREEZE, SALAD Bar, Veg. San Francisco Sour.....THUR. -9PMFRI.SAT. SON. 10PM DAILY SPECIALS SALAD BAR FABULOUS STEAKS .SEAFOOD FRI., SAT.....O.V discount Baked potato, Texas Toast, SALAD Fn March 10 Sat. March 1 Dinner Starts.. Placerville, California Friday, March 10, 1978 397 k San Mateo Times - 11/20/1926 ...DINNER including cover charge RELISHES SEA BREEZE SALAD TURKEY GIBLET GUMBO SOUP Make.. San Mateo, California Saturday, November 20, 1926 635 k San Mateo Times - 11/23/1926 ...including cover charge 5 RELISHES I SEA BREEZE SALAD TURKEY GIBLET GUMBO SOUP HOME.....but also the seventh angel mentioned in the Book of Revelations. A handful of followers.....of the night had been loosed over land and SEA. Sells Amusement On the outskirts of the.. San Mateo, California Tuesday, November 23, 1926 546 k Lethbridge Herald - 4/18/1959 ...carrot slice on a wooden pick. XXX. SEA BREEZE SALAD l'i tablespoons plain gelatin.....company casserole. Serve .with a tart green SALAD and hot rolls. 2 cans condensed cream.....i ]4 teaspoon salt 2 cups cooked shrimp SALAD dressing Soften gelatin in cold water.. Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 18, 1959 668 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 3/18/1969 ...WEEK" A Special Lenten SEAson Recipe SEA BREEZE SALAD 1 cup mayonnaise Va cup French.....HI-C DRINKS 3 1-qUV01'89c CHICKEN OF THE SEA 1.00 TUNA FSSH 6e2an? HO-MADE Ham Loaves.....1 cup shredded carrols 5 cups cooked SEA shell macaroni, 2 7-oz. cans tuna. 1 lb.. Ironwood, Michigan Tuesday, March 18, 1969 828 k From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:08:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:08:25 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: "Jobs, jobs, jobs." this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on "location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 sites listed. in any case, there's a formula here: The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. (conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). i've been calling this, in my own mind, the Rule of Three, but perhaps somone has studied it already, and given it a name? has anyone assembled some collection of instances of the formula? (they are all over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an exemplar?) this is *not* an invitation for people to supply their recollections of exemplars of the formula, though citations from printed sources or data collections, especially of some age, would be welcome. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 02:14:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:14:03 -0500 Subject: IMoM (1932): Riviera Salad (1968); Seabreeze Salad Message-ID: INTENRATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY I'm back at NYU with the ProQuest databases. There are 68 hits in the NEW YORK TIMES. The first is 1932; the next is 1997! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ALONG THE HIGHWAYS OF FINANCE.; Labor Day as a Mile-Stone in Wall Street -- Montagu Norman's Mysteries -- An Experiment With Labor. By EUGENE M. LOKEY.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1932. p. F5 (1 page): Among bankers here there is no sympathy for Mr. Norman in his affectation of the role of international man of mystery. 2. Other 11 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1997. p. H23 (1 page) --------------------------------------------------------------- RIVIERA SALAD Only four NEW YORK TIMES hits. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. And Now -- Salad Days By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 13, 1961. p. SM69 (1 page): _RIVIERA SALAD_, sometimes called salade Nicoise, is served here as the main course of a light supper. The dish, which contains such Mediterranean specialties as tuna fish, anchovies, tomatoes, olives and olive oil, is well suited for informal summertime entertaining. For an added touch of elegance, the meal is accompanied by a chilled white wine. Recipes for this French dish and three other main-course salads are given on this page. 2. Pique-Nique' Is Almost a Way of Life By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1968. p. 46 (1 page): CALIFORNIA RIVIERA SALAD 3. Article 2 -- No Title By ANN PRINGLE HARRIS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1988. p. XX12 (2 pages) 4. Warm Welcome, Soul-Satisfying Food By JOANNE STARKEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 16, 1997. p. LI27 (1 page) --------------------------------------------------------------- SEABREEZE SALAD There are only two FACTIVA hits, but both are from Tampa. Has it spread outside the Seabreeze Restaurant to become a genuine regional dish? (FACTIVA) BAYLIFE FLAVOR Eatery Favorites In Cookbook MARY D. SCOURTES 579 words 27 February 2002 The Tampa Tribune FINAL 5 English (Copyright 2002) TAMPA - Dried sweet basil and dried oregano turned up often in dishes at the former Seabreeze restaurant. Another flavoring was egg shade, a liquid coloring only found at a wholesale distributor, says Helen Richards, who, with husband Robert, wrote "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook." Basic recipes include such favorites as shrimp cocktail and seasoned salt. Broiled Mullet, Robert's favorite fish dish, which became a favorite with shipyard customers, and Smoked Mullet Dip, a complimentary hors d'oeuvre served with crackers, made the book. (...) SEABREEZE SALAD 1/2 head iceberg lettuce, chopped 1/2 head Romaine lettuce, chopped 1/4 cup boiled ham, diced 1/4 cup Swiss cheese, diced 1/4 cup American cheese, diced 1/2 cup green bell pepper, diced 1/4 cup onion, diced 1 ripe tomato, diced 1/4 cup green pimento-stuffed olives 6 black olives 1 bunch celery hearts, chopped Dried sweet basil Parmesan cheese, grated 1 lemon, squeezed Mix lettuces, ham and cheeses. Add remaining ingredients except Parmesan cheese and lemon. Just before serving, squeeze lemon over salad. Serve topped with Seabreeze Salad Dressing and Parmesan. SEABREEZE SALAD DRESSING 2 ounces olive oil 2 ounces vegetable oil 2 cloves garlic, crushed and minced 1 teaspoon oregano flakes 2 ounces red wine vinegar Mix ingredients and let sit 2 hours before serving. (FACTIVA) BAYLIFE FLAVOR The Seabreeze: A New Chapter MARY D. SCOURTES mscourtes at tampatrib.com 930 words 27 February 2002 The Tampa Tribune FINAL 1 English (Copyright 2002) Former owners of the restaurant compile recipes and the history of the closed Tampa landmark in a new cookbook. TAMPA - Robert and Helen Richards were not on hand when the Seabreeze Restaurant opened, nor were they at the helm when it closed. But they spent enough time running this Tampa landmark to fill a book with anecdotes and recipes. Now, copies of their new book, "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook" (American Printing USA, $14.95), are selling almost as fast as heads- on shrimp at Seabreeze Seafood, the market Robert and son Jimmy have operated for 35 years. The 154-page book, published last month, is sprinkled with historical pictures of Tampa. The owners say they sold about 1,000 copies the first month. Back in 1923, the Victor Licata family launched the restaurant before the 22nd Street Causeway was built. Customers would cross McKay Bay in rowboats to enjoy the fresh fish and shellfish from surrounding waters. "The first menu featured anything that could be caught in the bay or woods," says Helen Richards. Later, the menu evolved into a blend of Italian and Cracker cooking. Customers beat a path there for Miss Lucy Potatoes (homemade potato chips), crab Chilau (boiled blue crab in a spicy tomato sauce), steak Milanesa (thin steaks with spaghetti sauce), soft- shell crab and swamp cabbage. Several generations celebrated birthdays, engagements and other special events there. In 1992, when the Licata family decided to sell the Seabreeze, the Richardses learned they would have no place to keep their nearby fleet of shrimp, mullet and crab boats. "We were fishermen. We had a fish market and no idea of ever becoming restaurateurs," recalls Helen. The couple bought the place anyway with Robert becoming the cook and manager, and Helen "its grease." "I was a little bit of everything that made everything run smooth," she quips. The couple ran the restaurant for nine years, then sold it to a company that leased it to a Tampa caterer. The restaurant closed late last year, and the building is empty. Helen Richards loved the Seabreeze's boliche (chorizo-stuffed eye of round), but the big draw was deviled crabs, she says. "It [deviled crab] held the Seabreeze together for seventysomething years," she adds. But you won't find that Licata family crab recipe here. "If [it is published] in the newspaper, [people] won't buy the book," says Richards firmly. Patricia O'Neal, a Seabreeze cook for six years, mixed up 60- pound batches of deviled crab at a time. "Everything was from scratch," O'Neal says. "We didn't have anything that came out of cans or was frozen." And customers came back for the same dishes, she says. It took one year for Helen and Robert, along with historian Andrew T. Huse, to transcribe notes and recipes into the book. Longtime friend Medna Pritchett of Tampa, a Seabreeze customer for 30 years, proofread the recipes. At the Seabreeze, customer loyalty was unequaled. Tampa's Bob Clark Jr. recalls the Seabreeze as a good, convenient place to eat and take business guests. He ate at the Seabreeze every day for a dozen years during much of the '70s and '80s, he says. Over boliche and Seabreeze salad, Clark and other board members of the Miss Tampa Scholarship Pageant sat at the same table to plan the annual event. Clark, the president of Tampa Steel Erecting, says he bought about 50 copies of the cookbook to give away. The book is filled with fan letters and stories, such as one called "Beautiful Danger: The Waterspout," about the Richardses' daughter-in-law Donna and 2-year-old son being trapped inside a waterspout. Riverview's Nancy Foley was moved by the Seabreeze history, especially the waterspout account. "It was terrifying," says Foley, a senior administrative aid at Tampa Electric Co. in Apollo Beach. Foley bought a copy of the cookbook and stayed up all night to finish it. Then she took it to work, and Seabreeze fever broke out. "A lot of us are from the area. When they saw mine, they had to have their own," she says. She went back for three dozen more. "I went there as a teenager" in the late '60s. "I wasn't supposed to go there, but did," she says with a laugh. Across the street was the Auto Park Drive-In, where "the rougher" boys hung out. A Foley favorite is the Seabreeze salad, which was originally tossed at tables. Made with ham and Swiss cheese, it is among the recipes in the cookbook. "It tastes just like I remember," she adds. "The Seabreeze by the Bay Cookbook" is sold at Seabreeze Seafood, behind the restaurant, at 3609 Causeway Crescent, Tampa. Helen Richards is available to sign copies of her book in a nearby office through March. It's also sold at the Tampa Bay History Center downtown and will be in bookstores soon. RECIPES, PAGE 5 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:28:04 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:28:04 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed >that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: >"Jobs, jobs, jobs." > >this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most >important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, >location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a >great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on >"location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 >sites listed. > >in any case, there's a formula here: > The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). > Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" (as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? Googling on the phrase turns up many sites that refer to this as "an old joke", but, alas, none give any clues as to how old. (It's frightening to note that a non-trivial number of hits are returned googling for "location, location, location" and "practice, practice, practice". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 02:22:49 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:22:49 -0600 Subject: "stubborn as a Missouri mule" -- Is the "Missouri" reference here another put-down on residents of my fair state? Message-ID: I received the following query from a student at the Missouri School of Journalism: >"...I'm working on a story about the phrase "As stubborn as a >Missouri mule." I'd like to know where it came from and what it >symbolizes in terms of the character of Missourians or the state of >Missouri. I'd like to get your comment on it. ... In particular, the student would like to know whether "stubborn as a Missouri mule" is somehow based on a popular perception of Missourians as stubborn. Or does the phrase simply refer to the popularity of the mule among Missouri farmers and the fact that Missouri has been the leading producer of mules. The mule, of course, is also the official state animal. Gerald Cohen From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 9 02:39:24 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:39:24 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 06:08:25PM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is > location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest > exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an > exemplar?) > > this is *not* an invitation for people to supply their recollections of > exemplars of the formula, though citations from printed sources or data > collections, especially of some age, would be welcome. A bit over a month ago, Barry posted a 1960 example to this list of "location" x 3. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 03:19:53 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:19:53 -0600 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0500 2/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are >personal initials now to be antedated? The humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for is a legitimate subject of linguistic interest. HMO's (How Many Others?), TWA (Teeny-Weeny Airlines) are two that come to mind; more examples were once given in a series of ads-l messages about three years ago. A compilation of these items into an article might be worthwhile. Anyone interested? We deal here with humor/playfulness in language, and Allen Walker Read once gave a linguistic address in which he emphasized this feature. The address was published and I have it somewhere in my office. I remember that he quotes someone as referring to man (woman too, of course) as homo ludens--Man at Play." Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages? Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 03:29:07 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:29:07 -0500 Subject: Stubborn as a Missouri mule (1933) Message-ID: (OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY) With the phrase as stubborn as a mule (see sense 1b) cf. French opiniastre comme vne mule (Cotgrave, 1611), t?tu comme une mule (1690). 1771 T. SMOLLETT Humphry Clinker II. 169 The captain..becomes stubborn as a mule, and unmanageable as an elephant unbroke. 1812 M. EDGEWORTH Absentee xiii, in Tales Fashionable Life VI. 260 She was as obstinate as a mule on that point. 1853 J. Y. AKERMAN Wiltshire Tales 138 As cam and as obstinate as a mule. 1922 J. JOYCE Ulysses 411 The likes of her! Stag that one is. Stubborn as a mule! 1987 S. BEAUMAN Destiny 268 Jean-Paul can be as stubborn as a mule, and you knew perfectly well that..he would have dug in his heels and insisted 1923 Nation (N.Y.) 17 Oct. 432 Then there is the Missouri mule. He it was who won the war. 1972 Listener 21 Dec. 858/2 Not for nothing did the idiom ?as stubborn as a Missouri mule? come into the language. --------------------------------------------------------------- STUBBORN AS A MULE--4,540 Google hits, 1,300 Google Groups hits STUBBORN AS A MISSOURI MULE--59 Google hits, 67 Google Groups hits The phrase "stubborn as a Missouri mule" doesn't seem to be used much anymore. "Stubborn as a mule" goes back to the 18th century. Missouri used mules in the 19th century. I don't think that "Missouri mule" is any special distinction for the phrase. OED's 1972 citation is now improved to 1933. See the many interesting OCLC WORLDCAT citations that follow. (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) 1. His refusal to brush teeth has her down in the mouth; [2 STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle. Houston, Tex.: Jul 5, 2000. p. 2 2. IF YOU PLANT RADISHES, DON'T WAIT FOR ROSES; [SPORTS FINAL, C Edition] Ann Landers. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 9, 1988. p. 3 3. Mom says genes count; [2 STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). Houston, Tex.: Aug 9, 1988. p. 2 4. Domestic fights are matters for police; [NO STAR Edition] ANN LANDERS. Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). Houston, Tex.: Feb 2, 1986. p. 2 (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) the natural history of the mule; and its value for the general purposes of agriculture in comparison with horses Robert Wright. The American Farmer, Containing Original Essays and Selections on Rural Economy and Internal Improvements, with Illustrative Engravings and Prices Current of County Produce (1819-1834). Baltimore: Sep 30, 1825. Vol. 7, Iss. 000028; p. 219 (2 pages): Pg. 219: Having thus presented the evidence of the non-creation of the mule, but of its procreation by the intervention of man, I shall proceed to examine its attributes, the very name mule, and the proverb, "as stubborn as a mule," go far to fix their outlines. FAMILIARITY. The New - York Mirror: a Weekly Gazette of Literature and the Fine Arts (1823-1842). New York: Mar 7, 1829. Vol. 6, Iss. 35; p. 280 (1 page): Old Nick, who taught the village school, Had wed a maid of homespun habit; He was stubborn as a mule, And she was playful as a rabbit. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A MATERIALISTIC ARTIST; REMINISCENCES OF GUSTAVE COURBET.A CONVERSATION IN HIS STUDIO AT GENEVA--HIS VIEWS OF HIS PREDECESSORS AND CONTEMPORARIES--COURBET'S CAREER AND HIS WORKS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 9, 1879. p. 10 (1 page): Man is as stubborn as a mule in the convictions which are grounded on tradition. Champ Clark Makes Good. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 26, 1905. p. 6 (1 page): That Champ Clark went through all this effort we have his word, supported by convincing proof in the shape of four ears of as fine corn as ever found place in the internal economy of a Missouri mule of a Kentucky gentleman. SUGAR and SPICE ALMA WHITAKER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 9, 1933. p. A6 (1 page): They tell me she specializes in "sweet logic" and "frustrating grace," while evincing the stubborn tactics of a Missouri mule. MOVES TO MODIFY RED CURBS BEGUN; Lehman and Cannon Propose Action on Congress Return After the Election Cannon Drafting New Bill Expects "Objective Review" By C.P. TRUSSELL Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1950. p. 26 (1 page): The President, he (Republican representative Clare E. Hoffman of Michigan--ed.) contended, had been "as stubborn as a Missouri mule" in calling Congressional findings against alleged subversives "red herrings." Foreign Policy Effect of Election Disputed Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 20, 1950. p. 28 (1 page): "The President is sometimes as stubborn as a Missouri mule," Brewster (Republican senator from Maine--ed.) said, "but I don't believe his Missouri stubbornness will prevent him from realizing that the American people have spoken." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/17/1958 ...17, 1958 PAGE J True Empire The MISSOURI MULE J wAsjnAugurAted As President in j THE.....is given two red i pAper bricks for eAch book thAt he reAds And return? to the librAry.....with pride At the time not long Ago these STUBBORN but sturdy hybrids built the.....hAs hAppened to the proverbiAl MISSOURI MULE? Here, in the heArt of the greAtest of.. Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 17, 1958 557 k Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/17/1958 ...17, 1958 PAGE J True Empire The MISSOURI MULE J wAsjnAugurAted As President in j THE.....is given two red i pAper bricks for eAch book thAt he reAds And return? to the librAry.....with pride At the time not long Ago these STUBBORN but sturdy hybrids built the.....hAs hAppened to the proverbiAl MISSOURI MULE? Here, in the heArt of the greAtest of.. Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 17, 1958 557 k (MISSOURI HISTORICAL NEWSPAPER PROJECT) http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Archive/skins/missouri/navigator.asp?BP=OK&GZ=T&AW=1076295648578 _Jokes, tales_ _and ballads_ _legacy of the_ _Missouri Mule_ (...) Although he has learned much, Porter has not discovered a definitive origin of the legend of the stubborn Missouri mule. The best guess he has heard, he said, came from another farmer, who said he had never owned a stubborn mule, but guessed the legend might have developed because the mule's sire, the jackass, has a reputation for being stubborn. "In short, it could be like the sins of the father returning to haunt the children," Porter said. (WORLDCAT) The Missouri mule : his origin and times / Author: Bradley, Melvin. Publication: Columbia, MO : Extension Division, University of Missouri-Columbia, 1993 Document: English : Book The mule industry of Missouri remembered : a key to transcripts from 130 interviews contained in volumes one through eight of Recollections of Missouri mules / Author: Bradley, Melvin. Publication: [Columbia, Mo.?] : University of Missouri Press, 1991 Document: English : Book Title: Capt. Burl Ives' ark Author(s): Ives, Burl, 1909- (Performer - prf) Publication: New York :; Decca, Year: 1958 Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ;; 12 in. Language: English Music Type: Folk music Standard No: Publisher: DL 8587; Decca Contents: The squirrel (Angus McFergus MacTavish Dundee) / Schmertz -- Look at the little kitty kat / Lippman -- Bongo and his baboon drum / Mayer-Otto -- Horace the horse (on the merry-go-round) / Green-Coben -- The bear on the ball (with the parasol) / Hague -- The whistling rabbit / Curtis -- The ducks (quack, quack, paddle-oh) / Schmertz -- The tenor doodle-doo / Ives -- The bestiary / Ives, arr. -- The monkey and the elephant / Rogers-Abeson -- Old doctor wango tango / Kapp -- The swap song / Ives, arr. -- Old Moby Dick / Ives -- My old coon dog / Ives -- Missouri mule / Ives, arr. -- The bird courting song (The leather-winged bat) / Ives, arr. -- Ground hog / Ives, arr. The Missouri mule. Publication: St. Louis, Mo. : [s.n.], 1910s-1900s Document: English : Serial Publication : Periodical : Monthly The American mule yesterday and today / Ron Young 1988 English Visual Material : Videorecording : VHS tape 2 videocassettes (174 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in. Presents speakers discussing the heritage of the American mule and the Missouri mule at a symposium held to celebrate National Mule Day. Title: The Carrie Minnette Hickerson collection of sheet music. Marches and two steps. Author(s): Hickerson, Carrie Minnette. Year: 1939 Description: 30 scores :; ill. ;; 37 cm. Language: N/A Music Type: Marches Contents: Anniversary march / Rosey -- A-Su-Ma / Van Alystyne -- Bugle call / Dore -- Dixie Call / Wenrich -- Euterpe / Roehr -- Favorite march and two-step / Barth -- Funston's fighting twentieth / Wheeler -- Gardes du corps / Hall -- Gondolier / Powell -- Happy heine / Lampe -- Happy Mose / Kussel -- High school cadets / Sousa -- Honeymoon march / Rosey -- King cotton march / Sousa -- Missouri mule march / Blake -- Rastus on parade / Mills -- Regimental daughters / Powell -- Ripples of Winona / Marshall -- Sailor boy / Marshall -- Siberian dip / Johnson -- Silverheels / Moret -- Soko / Arnold -- Stars and stripes forever / Sousa -- Tannhauser / Wagner -- To war for liberty / Liberati -- Under the double eagle / Wagner -- Washington post / Sousa -- Yankee girl / Lampe -- Ziz / Feltman. The Missouri mule. Corp Author: United States., Works Progress Administration in Missouri. Publication: Jefferson City, Mo. : Works Progress Administration, 1936-? Document: English : Serial Publication : Periodical Title: Smiling 'round the seven seas being the day-by-day cognitions of a wandering minstrel under a score of flags, to which is added a scrapbook collection of ditties and sayings, wise and otherwise / Author(s): Lucy, Thomas Elmore, b. 1872. ; Lucy, Thomas Elmore,; b. 1872. ; When Dad was a boy. Publication: University City, Mo. : [s.n.] : Distributed by the Tourist Shop, Year: 1920-1929? Description: [2], 98, [1] p., [5] leaves of plates : ill., music, port. ; 20 cm. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Travel -- Poetry. American wit and humor. Ballads, English -- United States. Entertainers -- United States. Named Person: Lucy, Thomas Elmore, b. 1872. Note(s): Includes poetry./ "Printed by A.H. Anderson Printing Co. Streator, Ill."--P. before t.p./ Cover title: Smiling round the seven seas: Arkansas traveler globe trotting on a Missouri mule./ In: American poetry, 1900-1950, in the Harris Collection, Brown University Library. Reel no. 1326. Item no. 16./ Reproduced for the Great Collections Microfilming Project, Phase II, Research Libraries Group./ Reproduction: Microfilm./ Providence, RI. :/ Brown University Library,/ 1993./ 1 microfilm reel (in part) ; 35 mm. ... Low reduction. The Missouri mule. Author: Coots-Ferrell, Alma. Publication: [n.p., 1908 Document: English : Book Missouri mule. Author: Blake, C. Publication: New York, Shapiro, Remick & Co., 1904 Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 03:33:56 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:33:56 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Altoona(PA) Mirror, 1906. Talking about piano playing. "practice, practice, practice." Just the facts, sir. No commentary. Sam Clements From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 03:30:57 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:30:57 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman" Message-ID: At 11:06 AM -0800 2/6/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 >From: Sarah Bunin Benor >To: jewish-languages at jewish-languages.org >Subject: Server, "beitza," seal > >...Here's an interesting anecdote. A friend came across the word "beitza" >(Heb. 'egg') as a name for a non-Jew in Ireland. He was told that it comes >from Yiddish "eyer" ('eggs') through phonetic matching with "ire" >('Irish'). ... This is of course very interesting, but how widespread is the usage? Where did the friend come across it? Does it have any currency beyond the creative humor of one or two individuals? Gerald Cohen From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 03:44:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:44:48 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Also, a cite about how to learn to type in the same time frame. "practice, practice, practice." And an 1888 cite on how to learn to write. px3. From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Feb 9 03:52:56 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:52:56 -0800 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? In-Reply-To: <000901c3ee8b$d7fd4370$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: Any more of these, and Mr. Clements is bound to think I'm _after_ 'im. The Times, Friday, Jan 14, 1898; pg. 10; Issue 35413; col E Mr. Balfour On Naval Defence. NAVALIS.. Category: Letters to the Editor How crowded transports are to be protected against such a force, handled as it would be by young officers of the Royal Navy, I fail to understand. It is, in the late Mr. C. S. Calverley's words, "a thing imagination boggles at." The Times, Tuesday, Apr 16, 1901; pg. 7; Issue 36430; col C People in this country who pay any attention Category: Editorials/Leaders This may or may not be the case, though the spectacle of SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN and SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT carried out of the house by policeman, like MR. FLAVIN and MR. TULLY, is something "the imagination boggles at." [quotes in the original] And so on... At 01:38 PM 2/8/04, you wrote: >And, after a poster at straightdope suggested that Wodehouse used the phrase >"the imagination boggles" frequently, I searched newspaperarchive. > >There was a 1908 cite for "imagination boggles." ------------------------------------------------------------- James L. Knight, MLIS, jlk at 3geckos.net (Friday Harbor, WA) james.knight at thomson.com (Thomson/Gale - West Region) http://3geckos.net From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 9 04:07:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:07:09 -0500 Subject: mind boggles/boggles the mind ? Message-ID: [Any more of these, and Mr. Clements is bound to think I'm _after_ 'im.] Not really. I envy you your Times link, though. I've tried to find a library testing it for free that I could hijack, but no luck so far. Keep up the good work. SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 04:23:59 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:23:59 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Alice Faber wrote: > Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> ...in any case, there's a formula here: >> The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >> (conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). >> > > Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" > (as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? my intuition is that this is a separate figure ("eat, eat, eat"), but there's probably been some cross-fertilization here. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 04:48:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:48:46 -0500 Subject: Glat Kosher (1967) Message-ID: "Glat" Kosher appears to be earlier than "Glatt" Kosher. July 1963, JEWISH SOCIAL STUDIES, vol. XXV, no. 3, "CHURCH," STATE AND _KASHRUTH_: SOME HIDDEN DIMENSIONS OF PLURALISM by Samuel Krislow, pages 174-185. (A nice discussion of _kashruth_ laws in America, but "glatt kosher" is not here--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 1530 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 1967. p. 412 (1 page): GLAT KOSHER under (u) supervision (...) MAYFLOWER Hotel/Motel/Spa Boardwalk at Tennessee Ave. ATLANTIC CITY, N. J. June 1969, THE JEWISH SPECTATOR, pg. 19, col. 1: _The Glat Kosher Borscht Belt_ _By ELKANAH SCHWARTZ (...) RABBI SCHWARTZ is Assistant Editor of _Orthodox Jewish Life_ and the author of "American Life: Shtetl Style," a collection of short stories. GLAT KOSHER refers to meat in connection with which no ritual doubts-and-questions have arisen, due to anatomical abnormalities or lesions in the vital organs of the animal. HOLOV YISROEL refers to milk from the herd of a Jewish farmer, or to milk from non-Jewish farmers under Jewish supervision from the cow to the door of the Orthodox consumer. (CATNYP) Call # *PBD (Jewish life. Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America) v. 14-41;Oct. 1946-autumn 1974; [n.s. v.1]- v. 5, no. 4, summer 1975-winter 1981-1982. Title Jewish life (Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America) Jewish life. Imprint [New York Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America] (This was titled ORTHODOX JEWISH LIFE from June 1947-June 1958. It was also titled ORTHODOX UNION. This appears to be the place for the earliest "glatt kosher" citation. I'll have NYPL time maybe this Saturday, if I'm not comatose by then--ed.) From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Feb 9 05:02:51 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:02:51 -0600 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: A single example from German: BKA (Bundes Kriminal Amt - Federal Crimal Office, the FBI equivalent, minus the counter espionage component) is sometimes renedered a Beamter Keine Ahnung (officials with no ideas.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages? From pds at VISI.COM Mon Feb 9 07:04:02 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:04:02 -0600 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <20040209033421.512475CB8@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2/8/2004 10:33 PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >Altoona(PA) Mirror, 1906. Talking about piano playing. > >"practice, practice, practice." Isn't this also the punchline to the joke that begins, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 9 08:53:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 03:53:24 EST Subject: Amate Painting Message-ID: "Amate" painting is not in the OED. Tyler Cowen, an economics professor at George Mason University, is writing a book on amate painting and owns perhaps the world's largest collection. Cowen's personal web page is at: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/ His web page on amates: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/amate2.htm Concordance of Amate Painters The following directory offers some pictures of amates, and paintings, in my collection (a few are borrowed images). I have about 200 museum-quality amates, which I believe is the biggest quality collection in the world, and many paintings by artists from the area. Here is only a small sample of the creativity and diversity of amate art. I am planning to write about the amate arts in more detail in the future, this page will offer periodic updates on those writings. For now, there are three excellent books on amate. Jonathan Amith?s The Amate Tradition (La Tradicion del Amate is the formal title, if you are doing a search) is in both English and Spanish. Catherine Good?s Haciendo la Lucha is in Spanish only. Plus there is Gobi Stromberg?s El Universo del Amate. Amith?s you can get from Amazon, I highly recommend it, it is simply great and has wonderful color plates. The others are harder to find. Cowen himself is a very interesting person. His (Washington Post & Chowhound.com recommended) web site on the ethnic cuisine of the Washington, DC area is excellent: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/ethnicnewest.htm According to a profile in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 7 February 2003, pg. E1:: At 40, Cowen is something of an odd duck in his field -- a statistical outlier, as an economist might put it. He grew up in suburban Hillsdale, N.J., and might well come by his lifelong optimism genetically (his father ran a chamber of commerce). At 14 or 15, he was the chess champion of all New Jersey, and as an undergraduate he attended George Mason, a hotbed of libertarian social and political thinking that happens to be (shhh!) a state university. After Harvard, Cowen taught at UC Irvine before returning to George Mason, where, single and childless (he's about to marry a Russian emigre), he found himself with the time and tenure to pursue his interest in global culture. By now he's been to 60 countries, owns thousands of CDs and watches TV only in Spanish, to keep up his language skills. We dined at Brew Burger! He wore Spock ears! We met at Milo's Chess & Chinese (dinner)! But I digress. "Amate" and "painting" has 2,000 Google hits and 54 Google Groups hits. It's gotta be in OED so Tyler will owe me a dinner. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:08:29 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:08:29 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, I'm not so sure this is separate. If so, the cross-fertilization is rampant. Look at defense, defense, defense which is surely both "The most important thing in this game is" and "How can we win this game?" (In deference to Alice, only 1700 or so hits for defense; far below her practice hits.) dInIs >On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Alice Faber wrote: > >>Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> >>>...in any case, there's a formula here: >>> The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >>>(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). >>> >> >>Would you include in the same trope "practice, practice, practice" >>(as in, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?")? > >my intuition is that this is a separate figure ("eat, eat, eat"), but >there's probably been some cross-fertilization here. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:12:32 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:12:32 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <065b01c3eec9$fa54bb40$3b5f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: These were rampant in Eastern Europe in the good old days (an area given more to acronyms and political humor than perhaps any other in the history of the world). On eof my favorites (although maybe you had to be there) was always PPK (Polish Rail Way) which became Polish Wait Way a clear reference to the fact that Mussolini was not in charge of the trains i Poland at that time. dInIs >A single example from German: BKA (Bundes Kriminal Amt - Federal Crimal >Office, the FBI equivalent, minus the counter espionage component) is >sometimes renedered a Beamter Keine Ahnung (officials with no ideas.) >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gerald Cohen" > > Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur >in other languages? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 9 14:36:35 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:36:35 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:08 PM -0800 2/8/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a commentator on NPR's Sunday Morning Edition today (2/8/04) claimed >that the three most important (electoral) issues in michigan are: >"Jobs, jobs, jobs." > >this is (i think) a play on the real estate cliche that the three most >important considerations in buying a house are: "Location, location, >location". location-location-location itself has been extended to a >great many domains besides real estate; to appreciate this, google on >"location location location" and sample some of the roughly 218,000 >sites listed. > >in any case, there's a formula here: > The three most important Xs in Y are: Z, Z, Z. >(conveying something like 'the only really important X in Y is Z'). > >i've been calling this, in my own mind, the Rule of Three, but perhaps >somone has studied it already, and given it a name? has anyone >assembled some collection of instances of the formula? (they are all >over the place.) has anyone looked at the history? (is >location-location-location in the real estate domain the earliest >exemplar in english? in any case, what's the earliest citation for an >exemplar?) > I was collecting these for a while, in connection with my more systematic exploration of the Lexical Clone construction (a.k.a. Doubles, Contrastive Focus Reduplication), as in "No, what I wanted was a {dog dog/salad salad}" or "We're not LIVing together living together". My hypothesis was that the emphatic triple (= 'and nothing else matters') emerged for this function (and I did have a bunch of others, but they didn't reveal anything earthshattering) because the double was pre-empted for the modificational use. Of course, whenever I presented anything on those triples, someone would quote the line from the Lewis Carroll epic poem, The Hunting of the Snark: "What I tell you three times is true". A quick web search indicates that you wouldn't be the first to refer to this pattern as "The Rule of Three". I don't know of any systematic research, though. Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 9 15:16:09 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:16:09 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, location, location." " Notwithstanding the prevalence of the Z, Z, Z formation, I do think that it's relatively recent (perhaps as little as 25 to 40 years old) and that the real estate joke is the original form. It obviously has spread since then. A Google search for "location location location" produces 223,000 hits; a search for "location location location" and "real estate" has 62,300 hits. I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or another form of address. John Baker From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 9 15:31:05 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:31:05 -0600 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) Message-ID: This is from memory. In Dostoyevsky's _Crime and Punishment_ Marmeladov's wife is distraught at the way things are going and says in the midst of an outburst: "This thrice-accursed life!" That's the exact Russian translation, but of course it isn't smooth English. The translator was up to the task, though, and rendered her statement as "Damn, damn, damn this life!" Gerald Cohen From orinkh at CARR.ORG Mon Feb 9 15:40:20 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:40:20 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: This thread ties up interestingly with the one a few weeks ago that started out being about ?third time lucky? (etc.), though the interesting parts are more sociolinguistic than dialectal. In that light, the habit of saying something three times (for effectiveness, luck, or whatever) far predate the modern era ? take, for example, the Muslim ?quickie? divorce, in which the husband says 3 times ?I divorce you,? or the traditional ordination of Buddhist monks, in which a lengthy formula must be chanted three times in succession and without interruption for the ordination to be valid. These don?t really qualify as ?rules of three? in the sense that Mr. Zwicky and others are seeking, but I venture that they constitute a related precursor to the convention. Orin Hargraves From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Feb 9 16:09:24 2004 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:09:24 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the culture-side, let's not forget that both Christians and Muslims have special regard for the number 3. Or is it folklore that traditional divorce in Islam is accomplished by the husband (but not the wife) saying "I divorce you" thrice? Karl Menniger's Number Words and Number Symbols is a good source for the linguistics of numbers. Menniger reminds us of the three-ness of "tribal" and "drill' (a cloth), "tribute" and "testament." Apparently there was an arithmetic "rule of three" in mid-15thC ... so we may need to go further back to find the basis of "practice, practice, practice." --On Monday, February 9, 2004 9:31 AM -0600 Gerald Cohen wrote: > This is from memory. In Dostoyevsky's _Crime and Punishment_ > Marmeladov's wife is distraught at the way things are going and says > in the midst of an outburst: "This thrice-accursed life!" That's the > exact Russian translation, but of course it isn't smooth English. > The translator was up to the task, though, and rendered her statement > as "Damn, damn, damn this life!" > > Gerald Cohen _________________________________________ "Practice random acts of intelligence and senseless acts of self-control" From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:13:25 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:13:25 -0800 Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad In-Reply-To: <200402080731.i187VIFK010023@mxu5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, in Vergil's Moretum, the phrase itself comes from a description of grinding the salad ingredients together so that they make a single color, not a description of making a single salad out of many ingredients: "... color est e pluribus unus" translated by Joseph H. Mooney "The minor poems of Vergil (Birmingham, 1916) as " ... and out of many / A single colour ..." allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "E Pluribus Unum" and Roman Salad > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.tvgameshows.net/scoreboard.htm > MONDAY, JAN. 26 > Jeopardy!: Wagering was important going into Final Jeopardy! as champion Lili > Williams and Rob Poodiack each had $12,000 at that point. For the third > straight day, no one came up with the correct final response. > Category: Latin Lingo. Answer: this three-word phrase, familiar in the > U.S., originated in an ancient poem and described assembling foods to make salad. > Correct response: what is E Pluribus Unum? > Williams made the more conservative wager and ended with $6,800 to retain > the title and a two-day total of $15,400. > > JEOPARDY! watcher and ADS member David Shulman spotted this...After this > question, JEOPARDY! host Alex Trebek had one-too-many salads and drove his car > into a ditch. > "E PLURIBUS UNUM," one out of many, is how Virgil described making a > salad. There are many Google hits. > Shulman told me that some restaurants called their salads "E Pluribus > Unum." I checked Newspaperarchive.com. There are 29 hits, but nothing to > indicate a threat to "Caesar." From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Mon Feb 9 16:49:06 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:49:06 -0500 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <001401c3ee97$be8670e0$1cac8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: But "think" follows more sensibly from the first clause, doesn't it? And the use of "think" in the second clause is no more "ungrammatical" than is Doublespeak or Groupthink or any other use of a verb as a noun. At 03:03 PM 2/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: >This is exactly the sort of posts that occurred on Honyaku. Yet I don't >understand why "thing" is any less logical than "the whole nine yards", >"the Big Apple" or "the sun sets/rises". Sure, there might be historical >reasons for such expressions, but I've never had trouble using or >understanding the intent of any of these idioms or "thing". > >As far as "think" being logical, though, it isn't. The unexpected part of >speech is ungrammatical, which makes it witty, though certainly no more >logical. > >I don't see any reason to switch to think any more than to abandon the >illogical "the sun sets/rises". > >Benjamin Barrett > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >On Behalf Of Steve Boatti > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------- > > > >What is the logic in the saying, "If you think this, you got > >another THING coming"? None at all. "If you think this, you've > >got another THINK coming" is not only "witty," but makes > >sense: "Your thought is wrong and you need to replace it with > >another thought." My immigrant parents, who did not speak > >perfect English, nevertheless always used "think" and always > >understood it as a clever and sensible statement. > > > >Steve Boatti > >sjb72 at columbia.edu > > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:30:28 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:30:28 -0500 Subject: A Great Life Message-ID: >From an article on "Night Life on Broadway", Variety, December 25, 1914, p. 7, col. 3, sketching the round of cabaret-hopping that ends at dawn: . . . the regulars only believe they are living, in the often heard Broadway proverb: "A short life and a merry one" and that other bright light lure, "It's a great life if you don't weaken." I see that the latest Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has a citation from 1919, and that Eric Partridge's Dictionary of Catchphrases assigns it to World War I, without a specific date. I did not check books of proverbs. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:43:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:43:45 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three--(in Crime and Punishment) In-Reply-To: <202882.1076324964@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2004, at 8:09 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > ...Karl Menniger's Number Words and Number Symbols is a good source > for the > linguistics of numbers. Menniger reminds us of the three-ness of > "tribal" > and "drill' (a cloth), "tribute" and "testament." Apparently there was > an > arithmetic "rule of three" in mid-15thC ... so we may need to go > further > back to find the basis of "practice, practice, practice." this discussion, interesting though it is, has veered significantly from my original query. (i know, e-discussions are like that.) i have no doubt that a special regard for the number 3 influenced the way the originator(s) of "location location location" framed this emphatic utterance, but the fact is that it did become a formula, which was then extended to other contexts than real estate and to utterances using expressions other than the word "location". the formula/figure/trope has a life of its own, as a convention of language use, and that life was what i was inquiring about. it's much the same with syntactic constructions: aspects of a construction often "make sense" from a semantic or pragmatic point of view (more and more sense as we get back to the historical origins of the construction), but from the point of view of the speaker of the language they are simply the conventional ingredients of the construction. it makes sense that the english passive uses the auxiliary verb BE in combination with a past participle, but now those are just aspects of form that are paired with a particular meaning (a meaning that is distinct from the meaning of the predicate adjectival construction that served as the historical source for the passive). similarly, it makes sense that some languages use the subjunctive mood for imperative sentences, but speakers of such languages aren't creatively using the subjunctive to convey a suggestion; they're just taking the subjunctive off the shelf, so to speak, for this purpose. (the processes -- or, perhaps, process -- of grammaticalization of syntactic form and conventionalization of figures are certainly interesting in their own right, and in fact i am very much interested in both, but they're not what i was asking about.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:44:04 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:44:04 -0500 Subject: ???Thing or Think In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040209114619.023544e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: My least favorite local bar name was: ThinQTank I insisted on calling it the "Thin Q Tank." (It folded after about 3 months.) Bethany From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 17:58:55 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:58:55 -0800 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2004, at 7:16 AM, John Baker wrote: > I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure > Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about > the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money > in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, > location, location." " well, you can pretty much bet that someone can improve on a citation that has "hackneyed" in it! but this is a start. > Notwithstanding the prevalence of the Z, Z, Z formation, I do > think that it's relatively recent (perhaps as little as 25 to 40 years > old) and that the real estate joke is the original form... my guesses too, but intuitions about age of expressions are notoriously undependable (in both directions), as are intuitions about original forms (note the current discussion about thinks and things), so i'd like to see some real data. > I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the > same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying > things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, > location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is > often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or > another form of address. yes. i think that emphatic repetition generally can involve doubling *or* tripling. i can say "eat, eat, eat" or "eat, eat" with pretty much the same effect, but if i said "the two most important things in the michigan election are jobs and jobs", you'd figure out what i was getting at, but it would take you more work than if i'd used the figure with tripling, because you'd recognize that figure automatically. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Feb 9 18:22:17 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:22:17 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Actually, it's surprising just how often an earliest recorded use (or at least the earliest recorded use that we can find) refers to a phrase as "old," so the article's use of "hackneyed" proves little. What we see is that there were no recorded uses in the Westlaw database before 1984, but nine that year. That suggests that it was around that time that the real estate joke was widely dispersed. Of course, once you've heard the joke a few times, it sounds hackneyed, even if in fact it is relatively new. While the expression could be as recent as 1984, it could also be (and probably is) older, perhaps much older, failing to show up in databases because it was geographically limited or had mostly oral use. Donald Trump, who is associated with several of the early uses, may have been a factor in its popularization. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 12:59 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rule of Three On Feb 9, 2004, at 7:16 AM, John Baker wrote: > I'll open the bidding for earliest examplar, though I'm sure > Barry or Sam can do much better. From a 4/16/84 article in Time about > the young Donald Trump: "When asked the three rules for making money > in real estate, most promoters answer with the hackneyed "Location, > location, location." " well, you can pretty much bet that someone can improve on a citation that has "hackneyed" in it! but this is a start. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 9 18:40:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:40:37 -0800 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040207113341.02efcb00@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2004, at 3:32 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote to the ADS list: > HDAS shows "asshole buddy" in two senses: > "1. ... best friend, close friend (with no imputation of > homosexuality)." > from ca. 1942-5 > AND > "2. a partner in ... anal intercourse." > from 1953. the *only* sense i'm familiar with is #1, and i'm someone who's actually had a number of partners in anal intercourse and knows lots of others who have, so it's not like the concept of sense #2 is foreign to me. i could *understand* "asshole buddy" to have sense #2 if i heard it in the appropriate context, but then it would just be a novel instance of english noun-noun compounding (not at all the sort of thing a dictionary should be recording). the point is that, for me, it's not a fixed expression in sense #2. now, "fuckbuddy" *is* such a fixed expression, and in fact, in my experience, *its* meaning isn't fully compositional, since fuckbuddies don't actually have to engage in anal intercourse, merely have sex with one another (according to their definitions of what counts as having sex). so, like doug wilson, i'm really dubious about the HDAS's guess about the history: > Etymologically the HDAS speculation is: > "1. [this sense prob. developed fr. (2), below, but early evidence is > lacking]" "asshole buddy" surely is a cruder parallel to "bosom buddy/friend". both are figures in which emotional closeness is connoted by the attribution of physical closeness. anuses don't figure in being an asshole buddy any more than pectorals and nipples figure in being a bosom friend. doug wilson has the same recollections about the senses as i do, and asks about stress: > I don't remember ever encountering sense 2 in speech: does it have the > same > stress? over on the OUTIL mailing list, brent de chene has discussed stress, claiming that sense 1 has modifier stress (afterstress, heavier stress on the second element: asshole BUDDY) but that sense 2 has (or, as i would put it, would have) compound stress (forestress, heavier stress on the first element, as in "fuckbuddy": ASSHOLE buddy). i'm pretty sure i've never heard sense 1 with anything except forestress, and i judge "asshole BUDDY" to be a novel modifier-modified combination with the meaning (sense #3) 'buddy who's an asshole, a jerk'. but i'm not going to deny that some speakers might have afterstress for sense #1; after all, "bosom buddy/friend" has afterstress, and many noun-noun compounds do not have "compound stress" ("cherry LANE" vs. "CHERRY street"), while others have variant pronunciations ("CHERRY pie" *and* "cherry PIE" -- example courtesy of leonard bloomfield). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Feb 9 20:46:17 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:46:17 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, I yield. BTW, the book Homo Ludens, by Johan Huizenga, is good; I read it for a course with Walter Ong 35 years ago or more (we called our field Onglish, of course--more word play). Don Nilsson at Arizona still does this stuff too, I believe. At 09:19 PM 2/8/2004 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:46 PM -0500 2/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>What does this story have to do with dialects or word etymology? Are >>personal initials now to be antedated? > > > The humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for is a >legitimate subject of linguistic interest. HMO's (How Many Others?), >TWA (Teeny-Weeny Airlines) are two that come to mind; more examples >were once given in a series of ads-l messages about three years ago. >A compilation of these items into an article might be worthwhile. >Anyone interested? > > We deal here with humor/playfulness in language, and Allen Walker >Read once gave a linguistic address in which he emphasized this >feature. The address was published and I have it somewhere in my >office. I remember that he quotes someone as referring to man (woman >too, of course) as homo ludens--Man at Play." > > Btw, does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for >occur in other languages? > >Gerald Cohen From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Feb 9 22:53:02 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:53:02 -0500 Subject: "Nautch house"/"notch house" In-Reply-To: <200402090501.i1951Tvq023341@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I've been trying to remember a citation since I saw this thread, and I've finally got it. Robert A. Heinlein, _Stranger In a Strange Land_, 1961. "'She did everything but a nautch dance [...]'": one character speaking of another character's seductive behavior. (Sorry, no page number. The quote is from memory; I could find the page in a couple of minutes if I had the book here.) That was the first time I saw the word, and AFAIR the only place I've ever seen it till this thread. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 00:04:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:04:58 -0500 Subject: Go Figure (1964); Glatt Kosher (1965); Kosher Salt (1947); Mavin (1950) Message-ID: Greetings from the Jewish Theological Seminary Library, at Broadway and West 122 Street. I haven't been here in many years; the NYPL Jewish Division is usually sufficient. But the NYPL is closed Mondays. Still haven't found a Jewish American Princess, but I'm still looking. JFK--Don't forget our airport here, called JFK. Surprisingly, there isn't any popular slang on that. RIVIERA SALAD--The header should have been 1961, not 1968. -------------------------------------------------------- GO FIGURE August 1964, JEWISH DIGEST, pg. 74: GO FIGURE IT OUT! A very Orthodox rabbi in the East New York section of Brooklyn has a "Passover apartment" which he maintains all year round for Passover use only. On the eve of Passover, the rabbi closes his regular home and moves into the Passover apartment where no bread is ever allowed. (Two more stories like this--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- MAVIN (MEVIN) I had posted November 1950. The same HEINZ OVEN-BAKED BEANS ad is in JEWISH LIFE, September-October 1950, back cover pg. 106: A "Meichel" for a "Mevin." -------------------------------------------------------- KOSHER SALT See ADS-L archives. I had posted 1950 from the NEW YORK TIMES. October 1947, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 102: KASHRUTH (U) DIRECTORY (U is not in OED??--ed.) (...) Consumers are advised to look for the Hechsher or (U) seal of Kashruth approval on the labels of food products. Pg. 103, col. 2: SALT (U) Certified Kosher Coarse Salt Chippewa Kosher Salt Diamond Crystal Salt -------------------------------------------------------- RUGGELACH/RUGELLACH/RUGELACH/RUGALACH How can you search for these things electronically when you don't know all the spellings? Add this one. June 1969, JEWISH LIFE, "THE GASTRIC JEWS: A story about a campus in Iowa," pg. 15, col. 1: Dr. and Mrs. (also Dr.) Lohman (Classics and Romantic Literature) purred when they saw the blintzes and the nut-and-raisin filled _rogelach_ Ruth served with the coffee. (Pg. 31, col. 2--ed.) She sat down and wept. "And being Jewish doesn't mean having a taste for bagels and lox!" -------------------------------------------------------- GLATT KOSHER Of course, JEWISH LIFE volumes for the years 1962, 1963, 1964, and part of 1965 are not on the shelf here. Of course. That would be too easy. November-December 1965, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 56 ad: WALDMAN HOTEL STRICTLY KOSHER CUISINE Only GLATT MEATS served in the WALDMAN Manner January-February 1966, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 28, col. 2: The kosher pizza shop of "Noah Zark" is where the knitted yarmulkas and the girls who knitted them congregate,... (Pg. 29, col. 1--ed.) Between them are, ironically, a Shomer Shabboth supermarket, a Shomer Shabboth bakery, and a glatt kosher take-home-complete-meal store. Years ago such luxuries were unknown on the East Side. Shopping had to be done from pushcarts. Kosher baking, cooking, and eating were home activities then. Today, next door to the Forward is a glatt kosher restaurant. March-April 1967, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 72, col. 2 ad: Schechter & Hirsch's CARIBBEAN KOSHER HOTELS Strickly Kosher Meals Only Glatt Not Gebruckte Food & Shmura Matzo (Back to looking for a princess--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 10 01:02:49 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:02:49 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: Sheesh! Can't Barry get ANY respect around here? What is he, chopped liver?! Jesse suggested(correctly) that Barry addressed this in a previous posting. >From a december posting of his, "4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location." I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining a classified ad saying: <> So "The Donald" wasn't in on the origins. SC From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 01:41:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Asshole buddies:speculative etymology In-Reply-To: <74385C56-5B2F-11D8-980D-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >... over on the OUTIL mailing list, brent de chene has discussed stress, >claiming that sense 1 has modifier stress (afterstress, heavier stress >on the second element: asshole BUDDY) I think he was quoting me (he was kind enough to send me a copy), and this is how I've heard it most of the time ... but there are of course occasions when first-word stress would appear regardless: e.g., "They're not just buddies, they're close/bosom/asshole buddies." >i'm pretty >sure i've never heard sense 1 with anything except forestress, and i >judge "asshole BUDDY" to be a novel modifier-modified combination with >the meaning (sense #3) 'buddy who's an asshole, a jerk'. but i'm not >going to deny that some speakers might have afterstress for sense #1; Surely some do, or did (I don't remember hearing this expression much [if at all] in the last ten years or so). And it's true as I recall that "asshole buddy" meaning "good buddy" sounds the same as "asshole buddy" meaning "buddy who's an asshole". In some cases I haven't been able to tell which was intended. Quite often it's plural and more clear: "Me and him, we're asshole buddies." First-word stress would be predicted by my speculative derivation, and I speculate that this is the original stress. Arnold Zwicky's experience tends to remove one relative implausibility. What is the experience of others? And from when/where? I have seen sense 2 (referring to anal intercourse) in print now and then. I feel that it would be unlikely (not impossible) as a lexical item in the absence of sense 1 which I believe is probably primary. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 10 02:08:22 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:08:22 -0600 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order Message-ID: At 8:02 PM -0500 2/9/04, Sam Clements wrote: >Sheesh! Can't Barry get ANY respect around here? What is he, chopped liver?! ... I've never understood the derogatory reference to chopped liver in the phrase (with slight variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" Well prepared chopped liver is always tasty, and very well prepared chopped liver is delicious, a culinary delight. Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 02:54:56 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:54:56 -0500 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? Probably the cholesterol. (^_^) -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 03:25:20 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:25:20 -0500 Subject: general counsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Catherine Aman wrote: > Any suggestions on how to track down the first instances of use of the term > "general counsel" (which is now have rank pulled upon it by "chief legal > officer")? The Chicago Legal Times III. 65 (1889) has the following: "In 1885, he was made the General Attorney of the Company, which position he now holds, Hon. William C. Goudy being the General Counsel." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 04:02:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:02:38 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <001901c3ef71$9b7d02f0$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining > a classified ad saying: > > < The three things to look for when you buy a home.>> Can you give the newspaper title and date for this? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Feb 10 04:05:08 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:05:08 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:02:38PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > > > I found a 1956 cite in a California paper,using newspaperarchive, headlining > > a classified ad saying: > > > > < > The three things to look for when you buy a home.>> > > Can you give the newspaper title and date for this? >From Barry's original post, as found in the archives: --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION A good test of the search engine. I also tried "boola boola" and "boula boula." 4 May 1960, IOWA CITY PRESS CITIZEN, pg. 23, col. 2: LOCATION! LOCATION! Location! A famous realtor once said the three most important features of a home are its location. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 10 04:18:14 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:18:14 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three Message-ID: 22 Nov 1956 _Van Nuys(CA) Valley News_ 4-D (The classified pages) Location/Location/Location [header for ad] <> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 05:54:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:54:48 EST Subject: Rule of Three (location location location) Message-ID: "ROGELACH" CORRECTION--That "Gastric Jews" article was from JEWISH CURRENTS, not JEWISH LIFE. SHIT HAPPENS + HUSTLER--I thought that HUSTLER magazine would be a good place to look for "shit happens." Either the ads or the copy might have had it. The NYPL catalog says it has those years in the 1980s, but somehow the two years I requested weren't on the shelf. Nothing is easy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION In a message dated 2/9/2004 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 22 Nov 1956 _Van Nuys(CA) Valley News_ 4-D > > (The classified pages) > > Location/Location/Location [header for ad] > > <> This is curious. According to Ancestry.com, the VALLEY NEWS (Van Nuys, CA) was just updated on 1-29-2004. (My long-forgotten "location location location" post was in December.) This is the description: Description: The Valley News newspaper was located in Van Nuys, California. This database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the following years: 1966-67, and 1973. Can someone check out the following? (I can't open up the database on this home computer--where I am still the Addams County Historical Society.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 4/12/1930 ...LOCATION." At Long Foster we feel there are THREE THINGS which are important to anyone.....real estate business which goes "There are THREE THINGS which are important about any.....property: LOCATION, LOCATION, AND.. Frederick, Maryland Saturday, April 12, 1930 532 k (According to www.longandfoster.com, the company was founded in 1968. This cannot be from 1930--ed.) Van Nuys News - 6/10/1956 ...at Two 3 bedroom homes. Reseda VAN NUYS LOCATION. Fireplace, patios, BBQ, fenced.....Trees. Best LOCATION. THE REALTY HOUSE 5818 VAN NUYS Bl. ST 6-7360 Open weekdays 'til 9 p.....With Chavin 4415 Ventura ST 9-0331 11-VAN NUYS District 11-VAN NUYS Distric The BEST.....2-BEDROOM CARPETED We repeat-LOCATION LOCATION, LOCATION. charming home with big.. Van Nuys, California Sunday, June 10, 1956 849 k Valley News - 11/22/1956 ...Excellent LOCATION. Asking VACANT CLOSE IN VAN NUYS. only down. 2-bedroom and den Large.....CHOICE LOCATION NEAR Kester elementary and VAN NUYS junior high schools. Just 9 months.....lo volume business. Write r. S. Box 237 VAN NUYS Nfews, VAN NUYS. CASH FOR YOUR EQUITY.....Ave. ST 6-1860. Eves. ST 0-0053 LOCATION LOCATION 'LOCATION The 3 things to look for.. Van Nuys, California Thursday, November 22, 1956 868 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 08:26:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:26:51 EST Subject: Foodblog (2002); OT: Food Jokes & Time Warner Center Message-ID: FOODBLOG These are popping up everywhere! I can't read them all! I don't even want to read them all! Go to www.sautewednesday.com and click on the "fooodblog" link. Here's the earliest use of the word on Google Groups. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Food Blogs MSNBC's Bloggspotting column of 11/27 featured the best of food blogs, including sites with links to more for those who can't get enough of what other people ... rec.food.cooking - Dec 8, 2002 by Curly Sue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OT: FOOD JOKES & TIME WARNER CENTER TIME WARNER CENTER--I took a walk around. Yes, it's got some restaurants, but the NEW YORK TIMES really oversold this place. The restaurants don't even have their menus displayed outside. You just don't eat at these restaurants. Yes, there's a large Whole Foods store and a Williams-Sonoma store, but they're both elsewhere in New York as well. Overhyped. FOOD JOKES FROM eGULLET--I've been going through eGullet.com. Here are two food jokes, for the "hot dog" and "sandwich" people out there. I can do a historical search if desired. Posted: Sep 10 2003, 11:37 AM Q:What did the Zen Buddist ask the hot dog vendor? A:Can you make me one with everything?? Posted: Sep 10 2003, 06:34 PM A sandwich walks into a bar and takes a stool. The bartender looks at him and says, "I'm sorry, we don't serve food!" From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 10 09:00:53 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:00:53 -0500 Subject: chopped liver--consciousness-raising is in order In-Reply-To: <200402100255.i1A2tAaK006471@pohl.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: > > Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? A mere guess, but, in context, the comparison may have less to do with taste or nutrition than being inert, compared to a self-assessed overlooked one who can do and say much more, already. Stephen Goranson From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Tue Feb 10 14:27:46 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:27:46 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 Message-ID: I apologize for reviving a dead thread (how's that for an image?), but I mentioned this discussion to Wayne's General Counsel and discovered a deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' This is similar to another deliberate change in University terminology, from 'dormitory' to 'residence hall'. If you have any contact with the people in Student Life you will be beaten over the head about the fact that 'a dormitory is where you sleep, but a residence hall is where you live'. Language engineering on a small scale. Geoff From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Feb 10 14:39:19 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:39:19 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040210092235.0264e320@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:27:46AM -0500, Geoff Nathan wrote: > I apologize for reviving a dead thread (how's that for an image?), but I > mentioned this discussion to Wayne's General Counsel and discovered a > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' A few more decades, and they might just decide to adopt the British "solicitor" and "barrister" distinction. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 15:18:50 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:18:50 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040210092235.0264e320@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Geoff Nathan wrote: > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' spend > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 10 15:32:15 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:32:15 -0500 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <200402100501.AAA10870@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The one example of this kind of humorous reinterpretation that I know of from another language, though it's not as good as some of the others we've had, is of the 'A' sign to be found on the back of some French cars (a red capital 'A' on a white circular sticker). It actually stands for 'Apprenti', 'Learner [Driver]', but it's often reinterpreted as 'Abruti' ('stupid') or 'Arri?r?' ('[educationally] backward', with a play on the fact that 'marche arri?re' = 'reverse gear' on a car). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 16:01:09 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:01:09 EST Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) Message-ID: re Gerald Cohen's question, "does the humorous reinterpreting of what initials stand for occur in other languages?" In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the monarch was both "kaiser" (of Austria) and "koenig" (of Hungary). There was a rigid protocol involving whether an action or award or whatever derived merely one of these offices, or from both. If the latter, then the abbreviation "k. k." was used (I believe it was in small letters, I'm not sure about the periods). Of course not everybody in the "Dual Monarchy" took this seriously. "k. k." was sometimes interpreted as a pair of German words, which are unknown to me but which refer to excrement. Source---a lecture in 1983 by a European History professor named Marcia Rosenblitz (name probably misspelled). - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Feb 10 16:05:22 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:05:22 EST Subject: Mars roving Message-ID: MR NASA REQUEST FOR URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP FIRST, I MUST SOLICIT YOUR STRICTEST CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION. THIS IS BY VIRTUE OF ITS NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND 'TOP SECRET'. I AM SURE AND HAVE CONFIDENCE OF YOUR ABILITY AND RELIABILITY TO PROSECUTE A TRANSACTION OF THIS GREAT MAGNITUDE INVOLVING A PENDING TRANSACTION REQUIRING MAXIIMUM CONFIDENCE. WE ARE TOP OFFICIAL OF THE MARTIAN RULING COUNCIL CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL WHO ARE INTERESTED IN IMPORATION OF GOODS INTO OUR COUNTRY WITH FUNDS WHICH ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN THE ARGYRE BASIN. IN ORDER TO COMMENCE THIS BUSINESS WE SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE TO ENABLE US TRANSFER INTO YOUR ACCOUNT THE SAID TRAPPED FUNDS. THE SOURCE OF THIS FUND IS AS FOLLOWS; DURING THE LAST MILITARY REGIME HERE IN MARS, WHERE WE SENT INVADERS TO EARTH DEFEATED BY SOME VIRUS, THE MILITARY OFFICIALS SET UP COMPANIES AND AWARDED THEMSELVES CONTRACTS WHICH WERE GROSSLY OVER-INVOICED IN VARIOUS MINISTRIES. THE PRESENT CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT SET UP A CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL AND WE HAVE IDENTIFIED A LOT OF INFLATED CONTRACT FUNDS WHICH ARE PRESENTLY FLOATING IN THE MARS FIRST NATIONAL BANK READY FOR PAYMENT. HOWEVER, BY VIRTUE OF OUR POSITION AS CIVIL MARTIANS AND MEMBERS OF THIS PANEL, WE CANNOT ACQUIRE THIS MONEY IN OUR NAMES. I HAVE THEREFORE, BEEN DELEGATED AS A MATTER OF TRUST BY MY COLLEAGUES OF THE PANEL TO LOOK FOR AN OVERSEAS PARTNER INTO WHOSE ACCOUNT WE WOULD TRANSFER THE SUM OF US$21,320,000.00(TWENTY ONE MILLION, THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND U.S DOLLARS). HENCE WE ARE WRITING YOU THIS LETTER. WE HAVE AGREED TO SHARE THE MONEY THUS; 1. 20% FOR THE ACCOUNT OWNER 2. 70% FOR US (THE OFFICIALS) 3. 10% TO BE USED IN SETTLING TAXATION AND ALL LOCAL AND EXTRA PLANATERY EXPENSES. IT IS FROM THE 70% THAT WE WISH TO COMMENCE THE IMPORTATION BUSINESS. PLEASE,NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% SAFE AND WE HOPE TO COMMENCE THE TRANSFER LATEST SEVEN (7) BANKING DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE RECEIPT OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION BY MARS-TEL; 1-800-IDIOT, YOUR COMPANY'S SIGNED, AND STAMPED LETTERHEAD PAPER THE ABOVE INFORMATION WILL ENABLE US WRITE LETTERS OF CLAIM AND JOB DESCRIPTION RESPECTIVELY. THIS WAY WE WILL USE YOUR COMPANY'S NAME TO APPLY FOR PAYMENT AND RE-AWARD THE CONTRACT IN YOUR COMPANY'S NAME. WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THIS BUSINESS WITH YOU AND SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY IN THIS TRANSATION. PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER USING THE ABOVE MARS COM NUMBER. I WILL SEND YOU DETAILED INFORMATION OF THIS PENDING PROJECT WHEN I HAVE HEARD FROM YOU. YOURS FAITHFULLY, $%ab%^!2 (source unknown. distributed by Michael Walsh of Johns Hopkins University, who does not state whether he composed it) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:05:56 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:05:56 -0500 Subject: Rule of Three In-Reply-To: <200402100501.i1A51Uvq002796@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: John Baker writes: >>> I'm not at all convinced that the Carnegie Hall joke is the same thing, except in the general sense that people have been saying things three times for emphasis for a long time. "Location, location, location" is an invariable form, but the Carnegie Hall punch line is often given as "practice, X, practice," where X is "son," "boy," or another form of address. <<< I'll second that completely. -- Mark A. Mandel (grown up in NYC and heard that plenty of times) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:26:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:26:02 -0500 Subject: JFK (Just For Kerry) In-Reply-To: <194.249532dd.2d5a5a45@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0500 2/10/04, James A. Landau wrote: >re Gerald Cohen's question, "does the humorous reinterpreting of what >initials stand for occur in other languages?" > >In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the monarch was both "kaiser" (of Austria) and >"koenig" (of Hungary). There was a rigid protocol involving whether an >action or award or whatever derived merely one of these offices, or >from both. If >the latter, then the abbreviation "k. k." was used (I believe it was in small >letters, I'm not sure about the periods). > >Of course not everybody in the "Dual Monarchy" took this seriously. "k. k." >was sometimes interpreted as a pair of German words, which are unknown to me >but which refer to excrement. Are you sure "k.k." was interpreted as a German initialism? More likely, I'd think, as "caca". (isn't the letter _k_ pronounced [ka] in German?) larry > >Source---a lecture in 1983 by a European History professor named Marcia >Rosenblitz (name probably misspelled). > > - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 10 16:33:21 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:33:21 -0800 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <1076427135.4028f97f3f4db@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I thought I remembered that this sort of word play had been common in communist-era Czechoslovakia, but all my resident expert could come up with was this: "Yeah--though I can't think of any off-hand, except one: Somebody in my grade school writing "Long live the U.S.A!" on the wall of the school; when questioned by the principal, he claimed it meant "Udatna sovetska armada" -- the 'brave Soviet Army.'" Not really the same, but I thought I'd pass it along for a chuckle, at least. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:32 AM -0500 Damien Hall wrote: > The one example of this kind of humorous reinterpretation that I know of > from another language, though it's not as good as some of the others > we've had, is of the 'A' sign to be found on the back of some French cars > (a red capital 'A' on a white circular sticker). It actually stands for > 'Apprenti', 'Learner [Driver]', but it's often reinterpreted as 'Abruti' > ('stupid') or 'Arri?r?' ('[educationally] backward', with a play on the > fact that 'marche arri?re' = 'reverse gear' on a car). > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Feb 10 16:57:54 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:57:54 -0800 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Fred Shapiro : > On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > deliberate terminological intention. According to him, 'Counsellors' > spend > > most of their time advising the University, while lawyers spend their time > > in courtrooms. Since most of what he does involves consulting on what > > might or might not be legal, rather than preparing for trial, he says, he > > is a 'counsellor', not a 'lawyer.' > > I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely > used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. > > Fred Shapiro Yes, especially since the technical distinction (not widely observed in general usage) is: lawyer: one who has been admitted to the bar counselor: one who advises another, both in and out of court, not necessarily a lawyer (but in practice almost always is) counselor-at-law: a counselor who is also a lawyer attorney: one who has the authority to act on another's behalf, again not necessarily a lawyer attorney-at-law: an attorney who is also a lawyer In general usage, they are all synonyms. -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Feb 10 17:22:50 2004 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:22:50 -0800 Subject: Cash and Kerry Message-ID: News to me: Leigh Weimer's column in today's San Jose Mercury News notes that Germany's Hamburger Abendblatt newspaper online had this description of Sen. John Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry: "Cash and Kerry" -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 10 18:10:05 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:10:05 -0500 Subject: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') In-Reply-To: <1740727122.1076402001@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: At 8:33 AM -0800 2/10/04, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I thought I remembered that this sort of word play had been common in >communist-era Czechoslovakia, but all my resident expert could come up with >was this: > >"Yeah--though I can't think of any off-hand, except one: Somebody in my >grade school writing "Long live the U.S.A!" on the wall of the school; when >questioned by the principal, he claimed it meant "Udatna sovetska armada" >-- the 'brave Soviet Army.'" > >Not really the same, but I thought I'd pass it along for a chuckle, at >least. > >Peter Mc. > As someone else was saying earlier, the natives of Eastern Bloc countries during Soviet hegemony were especially renowned for their exploitation of hidden meanings, puns, and ambiguities. My favorite example concerns the infamous "Palace of Culture" in Warsaw, a not particularly welcome "gift" from Stalin to the Polish people, prompting this classic (if perhaps apocryphal) exchange: Western tourist: "You must be very grateful to the Russians for this gift." Polish guide: "Yes, we must." Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 10 21:30:12 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:30:12 -0800 Subject: New Orleans Message-ID: We were in New Orleans last week and I tried to send the following information, but our computer went into a coma. We went on a city tour, very interesting but who knows how accurate. The tour guide presented several tidbits I thought I'd forward here. 1) The old steamships plying their trade along the Mississippi had a valve to relieve the pressure. Thus, "letting off steam." 2) Early passenger ships served fresh pork. Not wanting the paying passengers to have to smell the pigs, they were washed before being loaded on board. The dirty water was called "hogwash." 3) Poor folk living down (or up) river would make primitive rafts and propel them along with stripped tree limbs/branches called "riffs." Thus "here comes the riff raff (raft?)." 4) An early church ordered some statues. When one arrived, the nuns didn't recognize what Saint it was supposed to be. One of the sisters read the packing crate, which said "Expedite." Thus the early New Orleans worship (?) of St. Expedite. (I love this one, and figure that's who you're supposed to pray to for swift deliveries and minimal red tape in all one's endeavors.) Rima From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 10 22:43:23 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:43:23 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms Message-ID: I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them in poker all the time (Seattle). Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? Best regards Benjamin Barrett From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 10 23:12:15 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:12:15 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <004e01c3f027$4dbf7690$5daa8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: >I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >in poker all the time (Seattle). I think "[full] boat" for "full house" has been conventional everywhere I've played (midwest mostly). I am absolutely sure it was more common than "full house" among my poker buddies in Wisconsin in the 1980's. I wonder: why "boat"? "Royal family" I'm not familiar with, but then a royal flush doesn't appear all that often except in certain forms of poker with which I have little experience. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 10 23:32:05 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:32:05 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman"--thanks; two more messages Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0800 2/10/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >Dalit Berman looked it up and found: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:10:58 +0200 >From: Dalit Berman > >It appears in Harkavy's dictionary, under "beytzimer" >(American Yiddish for "Irishman") a suitable name for >someone who comes from "the land of the eggs" (ayerland). My thanks to Sarah Bunin Benor for for checking on this. Also, I've received two more messages, which I now pass along: 1) [e-mail from Leonard Zwilling (zwilling at wiscmail.wisc.edu)]: I haven't been following this thread (if there is one) but if someone hasn't already informed you (or the list) this question was discussed in the English language Forward a month or so ago in Philologos' column. As I recall P said that this had little or no currency and his conclusion re the etymology was as that reported to Bunin-Benor by her friend. ... 2) [e-mail from Mikhl Herzog (mherzog at bestweb.net)]: Why "phonetic matching"? _beytsimer_, in its Central Yiddish pronunciation _baytsimer_ 'Irishman', from the Central Yiddish _ayer_ 'eggs', 'testicles'. Remember the Jewish lady who plunked herself down on a gentleman's lap; "Lady, you're raising my ire", he said. "Oy", she replied, "a galitsyaner". Mikhl herzog >At 11:06 AM -0800 2/6/04, Sarah Bunin Benor wrote: >>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 >>From: Sarah Bunin Benor >>To: jewish-languages at jewish-languages.org >>Subject: Server, "beitza," seal >> >>...Here's an interesting anecdote. A friend came across the word "beitza" >>(Heb. 'egg') as a name for a non-Jew in Ireland. He was told that it comes >>from Yiddish "eyer" ('eggs') through phonetic matching with "ire" >>('Irish'). ... > ******** Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Feb 11 02:41:28 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:41:28 -0600 Subject: beitza "Irishman"--Message about the Forward article Message-ID: My thanks to Joseph Lauer (josephlauer at hotmail.com) for this helpful message: > > The Philologos column ("Luck of the Eye-er-ish") discussing >"beitzemer" >> was published in the October 10, 2003 issue of the Forward. >> Its URL is >> http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.10.10/arts4.philologos.html >> Joseph I. Lauer > > Brooklyn, New York > Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 04:29:58 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:29:58 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <004e01c3f027$4dbf7690$5daa8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0800 2/10/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >in poker all the time (Seattle). > >Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? > Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically in 7-card games. Larry From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Feb 11 04:34:31 2004 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:31 +1000 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: I think it's generally acknowledged that loss of -ing and -ed in prenominal modifiers is a US-inspired phenomenon: dive tender, finish line, can fruit, etc. In Australia there appears to be a bifurcation between "frypan" and "frying pan". The latter is a skillet; the former an electric one, perhaps from a product name supplied by the manufacturer of the first popular such product. Many Australian speakers, though, deny such a distinction and use one term or the other for both implements. I note that MW has "frying pan" as the head entry. AmSpeech (v38, 1963), according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Feb 11 05:27:36 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:27:36 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." "Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. SC From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 11 13:34:07 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:34:07 -0500 Subject: General Counsel, Take 3 In-Reply-To: <200402101518.APQ44294@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 10:18 AM 2/10/2004, you wrote: >I don't think this makes much sense, as the word "lawyer" is very widely >used for hundreds of thousands of people who spend no time in court. > >Fred Shapiro I agree, Fred, but then, prescriptive rules rarely make much sense. Viz. 'hopefully'. Geoff From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:16:25 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:16:25 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <000501c3f05f$c3041590$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:21:50 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:50 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In an earlier life which apparently far outstrips Larry's (regionally), I have heard "(full) boat" everywhere I have played the game and never heard "royal family," even in the silly games where they occur with absurd frequency. dInIs >At 2:43 PM -0800 2/10/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>?I'm having a devil of a time confirming "boat" and "royal family" as terms >>for "full house" and "royal flush" respectively. My friends and I use them >>in poker all the time (Seattle). >> >>Can anyone confirm whether these are regional or common slang? >> >Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite >general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair >hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically >in 7-card games. > >Larry From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:44:32 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:44:32 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) and may have an echo of it in my head. dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) Sam Clements said: according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the use of "frypan". Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" nowadays? I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." "Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 14:49:41 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:49:41 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro linguistics class. Dennis R. Preston said: >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > >Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 15:43:51 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:43:51 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses 'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. Fritz >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro linguistics class. Dennis R. Preston said: >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > >Sam Clements said: >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >use of "frypan". > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying pan" >nowadays? > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >pan". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:12:21 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:12:21 -0600 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <0HSW00ATRKO87U@smtp3.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: DARE's maps show that "frying pan" is "widespread except in the West Midland" and that "frypan" is "chiefly Atlantic, Inland South, and West." Granted, things may have changed since the fieldwork was done. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 15:59:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with -ing. At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >Fritz > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >linguistics class. > >Dennis R. Preston said: > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > >use of "frypan". > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > pan" > >nowadays? > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >pan". > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >865-8963 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:23:34 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:23:34 -0500 Subject: Is this nun talk? (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded from my wife, Rene S. Mandel: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:08:57 -0500 Having signed up with and sent a contribution to the Kerry campaign, I now receive pretty regular emails from them. Mary Beth Cahill, his campaign director, always signs her letters "Thank you for all you do." The only other person I have ever known who signed off that way is Sister Marian at Aquinas College. Is this nun talk? Rene From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:36:09 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:36:09 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211105838.01124dc0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I don't think I've used one for 30 years...I almost set my dorm room on fire with one. Beverly Flanigan said: >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >>skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >>Fritz >> >> >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >>that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>linguistics class. >> >>Dennis R. Preston said: >> >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >> >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >> >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > >> >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> > >> > >> > >> >Sam Clements said: >> >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >> >use of "frypan". >> > >> > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying >> pan" >> >nowadays? >> > >> >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >> >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would >>say the same. >> >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> > >> >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >> > >> > >> >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> >pan". >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 16:43:09 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:43:09 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: me, last night: >>Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >>flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >>games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >>look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >>confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >>Wisconsin, and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite >>general. There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair >>hand and the superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically >>in 7-card games. Of course, the relevant brain cells had clicked off when I was trying to remember the last two terms, so I had to ask Barbara Abbott for a prod. The 3-pair hand is a "full gas station", the superfluous double trips (e.g. KKK999) is a "full hotel". The latter is presumably based on Monopoly, although the difference between a house and a hotel is functionally relevant in that game. Larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 17:27:50 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:50 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with -ing. At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >Fritz > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >linguistics class. > >Dennis R. Preston said: > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > >use of "frypan". > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > pan" > >nowadays? > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the same. > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >pan". > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 17:46:13 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:46:13 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate her/him). At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >Fritz > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a > >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. > >Fritz > > > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >linguistics class. > > > >Dennis R. Preston said: > > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > > >use of "frypan". > > > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > > pan" > > >nowadays? > > > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the > same. > > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > > >pan". > > > >-- > >========================================================================= > ===== > >Alice > Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > 865-6163 x258 > >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 11 19:30:54 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:30:54 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking about different things? Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate her/him). At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >Fritz > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >-ing. > >At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a > >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. > >Fritz > > > > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >linguistics class. > > > >Dennis R. Preston said: > > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying > > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a > > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > > > > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > > > > > > > > > > > >Sam Clements said: > > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the > > >use of "frypan". > > > > > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying > > pan" > > >nowadays? > > > > > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I > > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the > same. > > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > > > > > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. > > > > > > > > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > > >pan". > > > >-- > >========================================================================= > ===== > >Alice > Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > 865-6163 x258 > >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 11 20:06:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >about different things? >Fritz Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones "cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are frying pans, never skillets. Larry > >>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >her/him). > >At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >>Fritz >> >> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >>-ing. >> >>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum gadgets. >> >Fritz >> > >> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >> >linguistics class. >> > >> >Dennis R. Preston said: >> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > > >> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >Sam Clements said: >> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted the >> > >use of "frypan". >> > > >> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of "frying >> > pan" >> > >nowadays? >> > > >> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the 1960's I >> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the >> same. >> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> > > >> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >> > > >> > > >> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> > >pan". >> > >> >-- >> >========================================================================= >> ===== > > >Alice >> Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >> 865-6163 x258 >> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >> >865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 11 20:18:47 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:18:47 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise it's frying pan. At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >>about different things? >>Fritz > >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >frying pans, never skillets. > >Larry > >> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >>her/him). >> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now instead? >>>Fritz >>> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be with >>>-ing. >>> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not a >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >>> gadgets. >>> >Fritz >>> > >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>> >linguistics class. >>> > >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and frying >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and a >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >>> > > >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Sam Clements said: >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >>> prompted the >>> > >use of "frypan". >>> > > >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >>> "frying >>> > pan" >>> > >nowadays? >>> > > >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >>> 1960's I >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say the >>> same. >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >>> > > >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. IMHO. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >>> > >pan". >>> > >>> >-- >>> >========================================================================= >>> ===== >> > >Alice >>> Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >>> 865-6163 x258 >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >>> >865-8963 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Feb 11 20:50:28 2004 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:50:28 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20General=20Counsel,=20Take?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=203?= Message-ID: "Counselor" vs. "lawyer": This is not a new distinction. Back in the 70s and earlier, many large old prestigious law firms had letterheads reading "Counselors and Attorneys-at-Law." (Some may still do so today.) The distinction was presumably between what we called corporate lawyers (who gave advice) and litigators. I agree with the others on the thread that this is meaningless in that "attorney" or "lawyer" encompass all manner of legal eagles. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Feb 11 22:04:43 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:04:43 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211151735.01f37f40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant menus, perhaps to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise > it's frying pan. > > At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking > >>about different things? > >>Fritz > > > >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the > >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms > >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was > >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area > >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. > >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially > >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In > >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones > >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are > >frying pans, never skillets. > > > >Larry > > > >> > >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> > >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one > >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying > >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a > >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate > >>her/him). > >> > >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in > >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying > >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now > instead? > >>>Fritz > >>> > >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> > >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be > with > >>>-ing. > >>> > >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses > >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying pan--oddly not > a > >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, > >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum > >>> gadgets. > >>> >Fritz > >>> > > >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> > >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't > >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms > >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro > >>> >linguistics class. > >>> > > >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: > >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible > >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when > >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and > >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer > >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and > frying > >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a > >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and > a > >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and > >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) > >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never > >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) > >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > >>> > > > >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >Sam Clements said: > >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch > >>> prompted the > >>> > >use of "frypan". > >>> > > > >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of > >>> "frying > >>> > pan" > >>> > >nowadays? > >>> > > > >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the > >>> 1960's I > >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say > the > >>> same. > >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." > >>> > > > >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. > IMHO. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric > >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying > >>> > >pan". > >>> > > >>> >-- > >>> > >========================================================================= > >>> ===== > >> > >Alice > >>> Faber > faber at haskins.yale.edu > >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) > >>> 865-6163 x258 > >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) > >>> >865-8963 > > -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 11 22:05:24 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:05:24 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040211151735.01f37f40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Beverly Flanigan, following up to Larry Horn, wrote: > That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; > otherwise > it's frying pan. that's my usage exactly, learned from ann daingerfield zwicky some 44 years ago. i still have the wonderful (but *heavy*) cast-iron (or simply iron) skillets handed down through several daingerfield generations (they fit together to make a dutch oven, even), plus a smaller one bought and seasoned a mere 20 years ago. everything else that's fairly shallow and is used for frying, sauteing, etc. is a frying pan. there are no frypans. ann once (like, 45 years ago) had an electric frying pan, so called by her, though i *think* its makers thought it was an electric skillet. this looks like a sofa/couch situation, where people seek to avoid having full synonyms by specializing one or both items, but different people do so in different ways. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 02:35:39 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:35:39 EST Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) Message-ID: LOCATION-LOCATION-LOCATION Sam Clements checked Newspaperarchive.com. The "1930" hit is from 1980. But the earlier 1956 hit that I found in the VALLEY NEWS (Van Nuys, CA) is legit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they really mean it. ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 February 2004, pg. A18, col. 5. I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers George Pataki. ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is no longer required? ABB "BUT BUSH"--2060 Google hits, 243 Google Group hits ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ASTROPRENEURS From the NEW YORK SUN, 10 February 2004, pg. 11, cols. 1-4 headline: "Astropreneurs" Reach for the Stars While NASA Holds Meetings. Not in WordSpy. ASTROPRENEUR--55 Google hits, 2 Google Group hits ASTROPRENEURS--54 Google hits, 16 Google Group hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- PARVE, HECHSHER, (U), GLATT, KOSHER SALT I did a brief check after work and before the NYPL closed. (ORTHODOX) JEWISH LIFE began as the ORTHODOX UNION in 1933. GLATT Spring 1965, JEWISH LIFE, pg. 80 ad: WALDMAN HOTEL Strictly Kosher Cuisine Only Glatt Meats On the Ocean at 43rd Street, Miami Beach (A similar ad in January-February 1964 did NOT have "Glatt." The issue before Spring 1965 is November-December 1964; the issue after is May-June 1965--ed.) HECHSHER August 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 4, col. 1: Up to about nine years ago the Kashruth of articles labeled as "Kosher" were frequently questioned because many a "Hechsher" was obtained for financial consideration. KOSHER SALT August 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 6, col. 1 ad: KOSHER COARSE SALT Independent Salt Company (U) October 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 5 ad: Heinz 57 Varieties pure food products (U). PARVE October 1933, ORTHODOX UNION, pg. 8 ad: Sunshine Kosher Crackers are as Kosher and "parve" as they are delicious! (MERRIAM-WEBSTER has 1939 for "pareve" or "parve." OED--"miserable on food"--still has no entry--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Feb 12 02:43:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:43:46 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In Australia there appears to be a bifurcation between "frypan" and >"frying pan". The latter is a skillet; the former an electric one, >perhaps from a product name supplied by the manufacturer of the first >popular such product. Many Australian speakers, though, deny such a >distinction and use one term or the other for both implements. I note >that MW has "frying pan" as the head entry. AmSpeech (v38, 1963), >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch prompted >the use of "frypan". > >Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >"frying pan" nowadays? My jejune impression: "frying pan" is probably more usual (powered or not); "fry-pan" = "frying pan" (powered or not). MW3 and RHUD show this equivalence. Reviewing US newspapers on-line I find "fry-pan" meaning "frying pan" (non-powered) in apparently continuous use from 1852 to 2003. I guess I'd take DARE's word on the regional preferences, and I don't know how statistics may have changed over time. -- Doug Wilson From JNardoni at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 03:12:59 2004 From: JNardoni at AOL.COM (Joseph Nardoni) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:12:59 EST Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This is what he wrote: Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. Thanks. Joseph Nardoni From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Thu Feb 12 03:37:20 2004 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:37:20 -0800 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush) In-Reply-To: <200402120235.i1C2Zr35026657@drizzle.com> Message-ID: > I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers >George Pataki. I remember my grandparents (my family's dyed-in-the-wool Republicans) discussing their ABCs early in the 1996 Republican primaries: [Lamar] Alexander Beats Clinton. This became "anyone but Clinton" after Alexander left the race. Google turns up 45 hits on abc "alexander beats clinton"; Google Groups shows 80. -- James Callan, copywriter "This was a gargantuan leap of logic, in my opinion, but I suppose that's the sort of thing copywriters get paid for." -- Cecil Adams From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Feb 12 03:36:07 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:36:07 -0600 Subject: Is this nun talk? (fwd) Message-ID: My male Army Nurse Corps hospital commander uses it in speech frequently but I have no idea where he got it (pretty fully Americanized Christian originally from India.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:08:57 -0500 Having signed up with and sent a contribution to the Kerry campaign, I now receive pretty regular emails from them. Mary Beth Cahill, his campaign director, always signs her letters "Thank you for all you do." The only other person I have ever known who signed off that way is Sister Marian at Aquinas College. Is this nun talk? Rene From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Feb 12 04:04:07 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:04:07 -0600 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) In-Reply-To: <200402120235.i1C2ZrX04804@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) > > When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they really mean it. > ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 February 2004, pg. > A18, col. 5. > > I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers > George Pataki. > ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is > no longer required? I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 04:06:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:06:04 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What did his message have to do with her message? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Nardoni" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: Offensive vernacular? > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This > is what he wrote: > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. > > Thanks. > > Joseph Nardoni > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 04:08:20 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:08:20 -0500 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) In-Reply-To: <402AA6D7.14683.42F799B@localhost> Message-ID: Jim Parish wrote: >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> ABB (ANYONE BUT BUSH) >> >> When they say "ABB" (Anybody but Bush) they say it as if they >>really mean it. >> ---Christopher Hitchins in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 >>February 2004, pg. >> A18, col. 5. >> >> I remember ABC (Anyone But Cuomo). Unfortunately, that gave New Yorkers >> George Pataki. >> ABB (Anyone/Anybody But Bush) makes less sense. I suppose a "C" name is >> no longer required? > >I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. That rings a bell... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 04:22:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:22:47 -0500 Subject: ABB (Anyone But Bush); Astropreneurs; Parve, Hechsher (1933) Message-ID: I found a cite using newspaperarchive. 1972. "An AGM movement, standing for "Anybody but McGovern." It must have stood for "Anybody but George McGovern." My WAG. SC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Parish" I seem to recall ABM (Anybody But McGovern) from 1972. Jim Parish From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 12 04:25:35 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:25:35 -0500 Subject: Mock Apple Pie (1866); Food Blog (Sept. 2002) Message-ID: MOCK APPLE PIE _mock apple pie._ A pie made with cheese-flavored Ritz racks (introduced by the National Biscuit Company in 1933) and spices to resemble the taste of apple pie. The recipe first appeared during the Depression, when apples became a costly item. --John Mariani, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). This doesn't make sense. In the Depression, apples were the only things people COULD afford to eat. Way off. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Other 1 -- No Title Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Jul 30, 1867. p. II (3 pages): Dixie Cookery...239 Plain Cake--Tip-top Cake--Mock Cream Pie--Cracker, or Mock Apple Pie; by J. C. S.--Corn Rusk--Salad Mixture--Bavarian Cream--Sweetmeat Cream--Afternoon Cakes (Swiss)--Cranberry Roll--How to tell Good Meat...301 (FEEDING AMERICA)(http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/) MOCK APPLE PIE Jennie June's American Cookery Book: Containing Upwards Of Twelve Hundred Choice And Carefully Tested Receipts; Embracing All The Popular Dishes, And The Best Results Of Modern Science...Also, A Chapter For Invalids, For Infants, One On Jewish Cookery... New York: American News Co., 1870, c1866. Pg. 149: MOCK APPLE PIE. Two soda crackers, one egg, one cup of sugar, and one of water, the juice and yellow rind grated of a lemon. This (is?--ed.) a good recipe for Spring use. MOCK APPLE PIE Presbyterian Cook Book, Compiled By The Ladies Of The First Presbyterian Church, Dayton, Ohio. Dayton, Ohio: Oliver Crook, c1873. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Menus For Today The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 1, 1937. p. 15 (1 page): MOCK APPLE PIE 1 cup flour 1/2 cup butter 1/2 cup of sugar 4 apples sliced Mix the flour, butter and sugar. Peel, core and slice the apples into a buttered baking dish. Cover with the flour mixture. Allow to bake in a moderate oven until the apples are tender. This will be about 45 minutes. --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD BLOG A little earlier than before. (FACTIVA) AN OPEN BOOK ; COMPUTER USERS CREATE WEBLOGS TO SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS WITH THE WORLD Laura T. Ryan Staff writer 1,207 words 19 September 2002 The Post-Standard Syracuse, NY Final E1 English (Copyright 2002) ay back in the 20th century, most folks kept the contents of their diaries barricaded behind lock and key. No more. Now a multitude of meditations - personal, political or just plain peculiar - float in cyberspace for all the world to see. Online diaries (also known as "Web logs," "weblogs" and "blogs") have proliferated at warp speed since they first sprang up in the late 1990s. In less than five years, the number of blogs exploded from just a handful to more than 200,000, according to Rebecca Blood, author of "The Weblog Handbook: Practical Advice on Creating and Maintaining Your Blog." (Perseus Publishing, 2002). (...) But there also are peace blogs, food blogs, comic book blogs, fashion blogs, death blogs, gambling blogs, gardening blogs, knitting blogs, gay blogs, New Age blogs, religion blogs. You get the idea. From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Thu Feb 12 04:35:43 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:35:43 -0800 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <005101c3f11d$88e6ab70$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I'm offended he wrote 'their' instead of 'there'. And the rest is not much better. I hope he doesn't teach English?? Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive vernacular? What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What did his message have to do with her message? SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Nardoni" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: Offensive vernacular? > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following email > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and forgot to > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next time. This > is what he wrote: > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. Guess some > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. > > Thanks. > > Joseph Nardoni > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Feb 12 06:14:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:14:13 -0500 Subject: beitza "Irishman" Message-ID: It is stated at several Websites (including MacBain's dictionary) that Old Irish "baitsim" = "baptize" or "baptism" (modern Irish "baist[eadh]" I think). [Pardon me, my ignorance of Irish is virtually total.] I suppose "non-Jewish Irishman" is similar to "Christian Irishman" which is similar to "baptized Irishman" ... at least traditionally? Maybe the testicular connection is just a cute coincidence? -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 12 05:17:30 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:17:30 -0500 Subject: "tall, dark, and hansome" whence? Message-ID: >From the Straightdope, as usual. I can find a hit on newspaperarchive for 1941, "dark and hansome." But when does the full treatment (tall, dark and hansome) start? And what is meant by "dark?" Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 12 13:16:53 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:16:53 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <200402120501.i1C518vq007165@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>> Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l Abner. What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal influences you see in this language, and any information you have that would suggest this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of color. <<< Plenty of sayings and accents and styles "ha[ve] been ascribed" to people or groups who had nothing to do with them. I vote with you. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Feb 12 14:03:53 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:03:53 -0600 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South Louisiana and New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any such vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild rebuttal to a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). sally donlon Sam Clements wrote: > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban legend > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my mother. > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? What > did his message have to do with her message? > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > email > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > forgot to > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > time. This > > is what he wrote: > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > Guess some > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear attempt to > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > Abner. > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > would suggest > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > color. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 14:51:58 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:51:58 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <1076537082.402aa6fb0673c@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: >Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. > >But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant >menus, perhaps >to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. cf. "skillet corn bread", which is indeed baked in a cast-iron skillet. I'm wondering if the complementary distribution is partly phonologically conditioned--"cast-iron frying pan" is just too many syllables compared to "cast-iron skillet". larry > >Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > >> That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise >> it's frying pan. >> >> At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >> >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >> >>about different things? >> >>Fritz >> > >> >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >> >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >> >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >> >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >> >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >> >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >> >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >> >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >> >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >> >frying pans, never skillets. >> > >> >Larry >> > >> >> >> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't seen one >> >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >> >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a clerk in a >> >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >> >>her/him). >> >> >> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >> >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words 'frying >> >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now >> instead? >> >>>Fritz >> >>> >> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be >> with >> >>>-ing. >> >>> >> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >> >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying >>pan--oddly not >> a >> >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >> >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >> >>> gadgets. >> >>> >Fritz >> >>> > >> >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >> >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic terms >> >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >> >>> >linguistics class. >> >>> > >> >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >> >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >> >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >> >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric frypan, and >> >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A ringer >> >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and >> frying >> >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >> >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron type and >> a >> >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >> >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >> >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I never >> >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or existed) >> >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. > > >>> > > >> >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >Sam Clements said: >> >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >> >>> prompted the >> >>> > >use of "frypan". >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >> >>> "frying >> >>> > pan" >> >>> > >nowadays? >> >>> > > >> >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >> >>> 1960's I >> >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say >> the >> >>> same. >> >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >> >>> > > >> >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. >> IMHO. >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >> >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >> >>> > >pan". >> >>> > >> >>> >-- >> >>> >> >========================================================================= >> >>> ===== >> >> > >Alice >> >>> Faber >> faber at haskins.yale.edu >> >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >> >>> 865-6163 x258 >> >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) >> >>> >865-8963 >> >> > > >-- >Dave Wilton >dave at wilton.net >http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Thu Feb 12 15:07:03 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Your Name) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular Message-ID: Definitely sounds like an attempt at a dialect that has been ascribed derisively to non-persons of non-color, i.e., hillbillys. On the other hand, Mark Twain's author's note to Huckleberry Finn listed class and racial variants of dialects from Missouri to New Orleans spoken by his characters. He made the point, he wrote, lest readers think that the characters were all trying to sound alike, and failing. And what difference does it make what other people may have allegedly done with an allegedly similar dialect? Sean Fitzpatrick Upper Darby, PA From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 15:29:57 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:29:57 -0500 Subject: your alls Message-ID: I just came out of a doctoral oral exam in music. The candidate grew up in the Louisville area and attended the UofL. He has lived for some time in Central Indiana, has a masters in music from Butler U., Indianapolis, and is completing his doctoral program at Ball State. In the course of discussion about his dissertation topic, he used the phrase "your alls ideas". This was the only you all or your all form in two hours. On Google, "your alls" gets 360 hits, some of which don't count because Alls is also a family name ("your Alls family genealogy"). "Youralls" gets 12. "you all" gets 11.4m, many of which aren't dialectal ("Thank you all!") and "y'all" gets 156k, but Google deletes the apostrophe before searching, even with "y'all" in quotes, so I'm not sure what that number means. "Yalls" (apostrophes deleted by Google) gets 4150. I'm surprised at the low number of possessive forms, .04% of total forms searched. Herb From pds at VISI.COM Thu Feb 12 15:50:02 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:50:02 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <20040210162605.C94AA502D@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Two for Barry: What is the story of this name for a White Castle Hamburger? Did WC's registered name, "Slyder," come first, or the popular nickname for their hamburger, "slider"? And when? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 16:00:02 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:00:02 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One last follow-up (I hope): Just last night I saw two ads in a chain store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I think. At 09:51 AM 2/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>Ditto for me. "Skillets" are cast iron. >> >>But I have noticed that "skillet" gets a lot of use on restaurant >>menus, perhaps >>to avoid the unhealthy association with "fried" food. > >cf. "skillet corn bread", which is indeed baked in a cast-iron >skillet. I'm wondering if the complementary distribution is partly >phonologically conditioned--"cast-iron frying pan" is just too many >syllables compared to "cast-iron skillet". > >larry > >> >>Quoting Beverly Flanigan : >> >>> That reminds me: I think I also use "skillet" with "cast-iron"; otherwise >>> it's frying pan. >>> >>> At 03:06 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>> >At 11:30 AM -0800 2/11/04, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>> >>Still mystified, as we use one almost every day. Are we talking >>> >>about different things? >>> >>Fritz >>> > >>> >Are you talking about the kind of device that you plug in? In the >>> >old days, some apartments-- including one I lived in--and dorm rooms >>> >allowed electric hot plates but had no stoves. In particular, I was >>> >living in the mid-1970s on the lower floor of a house in an area >>> >zoned for one-family houses and the only legal kitchen was upstairs. >>> >So we used an electric frying pan. I remember them being especially >>> >good for paella, but that was the last time I remember using one. In >>> >terms of NON-electric frying pans, I do call the black iron ones >>> >"cast-iron skillets" or "frying pans". The non-stick teflon ones are >>> >frying pans, never skillets. >>> > >>> >Larry >>> > >>> >> >>> >>>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 09:46AM >>> >>> >>Both. I was just joking about the electric kind, since I haven't >>> seen one >>> >>for years. But with or without "electric," I would always say "frying >>> >>pan"--never fry pan, or spider, or even skillet (unless maybe a >>> clerk in a >>> >>store used the last term, in which case I'd follow suit to accommodate >>> >>her/him). >>> >> >>> >>At 09:27 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>>I'm somewhat mystified by the question. Maybe I have something else in >>> >>>mind from what you are thinking. Are you talking about the words >>> 'frying >>> >>>pan' or the object itself? If the object, what do people use now >>> instead? >>> >>>Fritz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/11/04 07:59AM >>> >>> >>>Gee, does anyone still use electric fry(ing) pans? If I did, it'd be >>> with >>> >>>-ing. >>> >>> >>> >>>At 07:43 AM 2/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>> >Both my wife and I use 'electric skillet,' but neither of us uses >>> >>> >'skillet' for the non-electric thingy. That's a frying >>>pan--oddly not >>> a >>> >>> >skillet. But if I did have to use skillet, it would be for the old, >>> >>> >black, cast iron ones, not the shiney, stainless steel or aluminum >>> >>> gadgets. >>> >>> >Fritz >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU 02/11/04 06:49AM >>> >>> >>> >I have that same echo of "electric skillet" in my head, but can't >>> >>> >imagine where it came from, as "skillet" is one of those exotic >>> terms >>> >>> >that I might have learned in the first dialectology unit in my intro >>> >>> >linguistics class. >>> >>> > >>> >>> >Dennis R. Preston said: >>> >>> > >Well I'm older than both of you (so you can imagine the incredible >>> >>> > >authority this must have). I began saying electric frying pan when >>> >>> > >the silly things were introduced, reduced it to electric >>> frypan, and >>> >>> > >now use frypan exclusively to refer to the electric thing. A >>> ringer >>> >>> > >in my usage may have been the fact that I had both skillet and >>> frying >>> >>> > >pan before the electric goodies, and, if I recall correctly, had a >>> >>> > >slight preference for frying pan for the oldtime cast iron >>> type and >>> a >>> >>> > >slight preference for skillet for stainless steel, aluminum, and >>> >>> > >other instantiations of the genre. (No, didn't have no spiders.) >>> >>> > >Oddly, since the electric ones looked more like the latter, I >>> never >>> >>> > >used electric skillet, although I understand it exists (or >>> existed) >>> >>> > >and may have an echo of it in my head. >> > >>> > > >>> >>> > >dInIs (whose echoes in his head seem to increase) >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >Sam Clements said: >>> >>> > >according to OED, notes that the electric implement's launch >>> >>> prompted the >>> >>> > >use of "frypan". >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > Is there a bifurcation like this in AmE? What is the status of >>> >>> "frying >>> >>> > pan" >>> >>> > >nowadays? >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >I'm 59 and remember when "electric frypan" was a phrase in the >>> >>> 1960's I >>> >>> > >haven't heard it since. And I'd bet that most Americans would say >>> the >>> >>> same. >>> >>> > >And, you needed that "electric" before the word "frypan." >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >"Frying pan" is the only thing you hear in the last 25+ years. >>> IMHO. >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >I'm a bit younger than you are, and I don't recall the electric >>> >>> > >version ever being called anything other than an "electric frying >>> >>> > >pan". >>> >>> > >>> >>> >-- >>> >>> >>> >========================================================================= >>> >>> ===== >>> >> > >Alice >>> >>> Faber >>> faber at haskins.yale.edu >>> >>> >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) >>> >>> 865-6163 x258 >>> >>> >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax >>> (203) >>> >>> >865-8963 >>> >> >> >>-- >>Dave Wilton >>dave at wilton.net >>http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 16:13:15 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:13:15 -0500 Subject: Offensive vernacular? In-Reply-To: <402B87C9.6EF55B75@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I tend to agree on the hierarchical put-down theory, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "mild rebuttal." It is an extremely offensive piece, to my mind, regardless of the color or origin of the secretary. I say that because we've had several secretaries who are "local" (and why shouldn't we?), and they've occasionally written the way they speak, including using generalized past tense "done." (Misspellings are another matter and totally irrelevant here.) Visitors will sometimes ask us why we (linguists, of all people!) tolerate such usage in the office, and we answer, truthfully, that we value their skills more than their speech. So their! At 08:03 AM 2/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: >First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South >Louisiana and >New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any >such >vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally >uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this >exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild >rebuttal to >a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). > >sally donlon > > > >Sam Clements wrote: > > > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban > legend > > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my > mother. > > > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? > What > > did his message have to do with her message? > > > > SC > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > > email > > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > > forgot to > > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > > time. This > > > is what he wrote: > > > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > > Guess some > > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear > attempt to > > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > > Abner. > > > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > > would suggest > > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > > color. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > > From cowboyjack at CABLEONE.NET Thu Feb 12 16:52:56 2004 From: cowboyjack at CABLEONE.NET (cowboyjack) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:52:56 -0600 Subject: Unsubscibing Message-ID: Can someone please tell me how to get off this list? I'm not having any luck. \ Thanks, Jack From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Feb 12 18:06:46 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:06:46 -0600 Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Point taken, IF the secretary indeed used non-standard dialect on a regular basis. I guess I was giving the prof a bit of the old benefit-of-the-doubt in that I couldn't forsee that he were enough the cretin to actually mock such a speaker. sally Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I tend to agree on the hierarchical put-down theory, but I certainly > wouldn't call it a "mild rebuttal." It is an extremely offensive piece, to > my mind, regardless of the color or origin of the secretary. I say that > because we've had several secretaries who are "local" (and why shouldn't > we?), and they've occasionally written the way they speak, including using > generalized past tense "done." (Misspellings are another matter and > totally irrelevant here.) Visitors will sometimes ask us why we > (linguists, of all people!) tolerate such usage in the office, and we > answer, truthfully, that we value their skills more than their speech. So > their! > > At 08:03 AM 2/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: > >First, my lifelong experience with people of color (here in South > >Louisiana and > >New Orleans) tells me that the parody bears very little resemblance to any > >such > >vernacular. It is more representative, I believe, of an amorphous, generally > >uneducated, person responding to a perceived rebuke. My guess is that this > >exchange, if it happened, is of a hierarchical nature (i.e., a mild > >rebuttal to > >a secretary who had the audacity to "correct" a professor?). > > > >sally donlon > > > > > > > >Sam Clements wrote: > > > > > What I would want to know is--why did your colleague choose to write this > > > stupidity to his secretary in this instance? It sounds like an urban > > legend > > > or some exponentially forwarded message that is sent in e-mail to my > > mother. > > > > > > Is your colleague in the habit of doing this kind of thing in an official, > > > office situation? Did "Joyce" (not her real name) talk in a similar > > > manner in her email? WHY did he choose to reply to her the way he did? > > What > > > did his message have to do with her message? > > > > > > SC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Joseph Nardoni" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:12 PM > > > Subject: Offensive vernacular? > > > > > > > Hi, a colleague of mine is taking some heat for sending the following > > > email > > > > message. I will give a brief situation. He missed class one day, and > > > forgot to > > > > tell the secretary he would be out, so she couldn't tell his students who > > > > came looking for him. She sent him an email request to remember next > > > time. This > > > > is what he wrote: > > > > > > > > Shucks, Joyce, (not her real name), ya know, ah plumb forgot. Mah Dean > > > > alreddy new it, 'n ah told mah classes on Frahday ah wuddn't be their. > > > Guess some > > > > folks wuz out thet day. Ah'll dismember it neckst tahme. > > > > > > > > Some people at my college are claiming this language is a clear > > attempt to > > > > use a vernacular that "has been ascribed derisively, to people of color." > > > > > > > > While I'm not a linguist, it seems to me that this sounds more like the > > > > dialect of a southern white hillbilly, or even a parody of one, ala Li'l > > > Abner. > > > > > > > > What I am asking for is your considered opinions as to what dialectal > > > > influences you see in this language, and any information you have that > > > would suggest > > > > this kind of language has been ascribed in derision towards people of > > > color. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Joseph Nardoni > > > > From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 18:11:23 2004 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:11:23 -0500 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: I might be the least credible here, but in my central Ohio dialect I say "skillet," no matter the metal. I use a couple descriptors like "iron skillet" if it's made of iron, "non-stick skillet," for the teflon types, and "electric skillet". I picked up the use of "fry pan," not "frying pan," in eastern KY, but I usually don't use those terms. Kate ____________________ Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:03:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:03:38 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212105531.0201d128@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >One last follow-up (I hope): Sorry to dash your hope! >Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >think. In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many (offered) sales of "saut? pans" (with various spellings). Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:27:01 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:27:01 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>One last follow-up (I hope): > >Sorry to dash your hope! > >>Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >>store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >>teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >>means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >>to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >>mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >>think. > >In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many >(offered) sales of "saut? pans" (with various spellings). Not to mention the various omelet(te) pans. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:36:23 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:36:23 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <200402111643.i1BGh785011728@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to LH, DW and DR for their timely replies. I play poker almost exclusively with a small number (<12) friends and have never heard full boat, but I will cite (full) boat. I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go back and suggest that be inserted. I went back and asked one of my friends who also plays at commercial tables, and he says he usually hears the royal family heard in a context such as "I'm working on the royal family". He said he had never heard it in Las Vegas, so perhaps this is a local regionalism (Western Washington or Puget Sound). Having a pun, logical derivation and utility as use in poker jargon, it seems reasonable for entry in non-regional poker use. I will try using gas station and hotel at the next game if the opportunity strikes. I am glad to have names for these irritating phenomena. Since I don't hear "full" in front of boat, I wonder if these will require full as well... Best regards Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Laurence Horn > >me, last night: >>>Boat is very general. Royal family I've never heard, but then royal >>>flushes don't come up that often (although more often in wild-card >>>games). Ooops, just saw Doug sent the same message (I remembered to >>>look at my mailer this time), but I'll send this anyway just to >>>confirm the point. I've played in California, New England, >Wisconsin, >>>and various places in between; (full) boat is indeed quite general. >>>There are also various terms for the unfortunate 3-pair hand and the >>>superfluous two-trips hand, both occurring periodically in 7-card >>>games. > >Of course, the relevant brain cells had clicked off when I was >trying to remember the last two terms, so I had to ask Barbara >Abbott for a prod. The 3-pair hand is a "full gas station", >the superfluous double trips (e.g. KKK999) is a "full hotel". >The latter is presumably based on Monopoly, although the >difference between a house and a hotel is functionally >relevant in that game. > >Larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:24:22 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:24:22 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? At 02:03 PM 2/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:00 AM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>One last follow-up (I hope): > >Sorry to dash your hope! > >>Just last night I saw two ads in a chain >>store flyer for _skillets_, both flat, colored, and probably >>teflon-coated. In fact, one was called a "French skillet," whatever that >>means. As I wrote earlier, I suspect this is the current sales term, maybe >>to make the items sound fancier or more modern than the frying pans our >>mothers used. Avoiding the implications of frying is part of this too, I >>think. > >In support of the last speculation, there are increasingly many >(offered) sales of "saut? pans" (with various spellings). > >Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 19:53:22 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:53:22 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <007801c3f19f$7ffc6f90$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 11:36 AM -0800 2/12/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >I will try using gas station and hotel at the next game if the opportunity >strikes. I am glad to have names for these irritating phenomena. Since I >don't hear "full" in front of boat, I wonder if these will require full as >well... > I think they almost always do, since they're understood parasitically on "full house". Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:02:12 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:02:12 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212142222.0111f2b0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan said: >Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti >pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? Actually...I have nothing agin pasta. I just can't metabolize it. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:05:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:05:38 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040212142222.0111f2b0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:24 PM -0500 2/12/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Speaking of (mis)spellings: Our neighborhood grocery store now sells "anti >pasta" in its deli. Who's agin pasta? All those Down With Carbs folks (Atkinsites, South Beachites, etc.). The Times living section yesterday described a conference addressing this terrible trend, held (of course) in Rome. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:18:24 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:18:24 -0800 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <200402121936.i1CJacNu007977@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Make that three of a kind, not triplet. But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett >I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go >back and suggest that be inserted. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Feb 12 20:22:02 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:22:02 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <009501c3f1a5$613ef680$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 12:18:24PM -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Make that three of a kind, not triplet. > > But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? No, but they do say "trip" or "trips". Jesse Sheidlower From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Feb 12 20:49:02 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:49:02 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? Message-ID: [This is from a story about a bunch of churchwomen who went out to investigate the cabarets of Chicago. Naturally, when a posse of middle-aged biddies in stupid hats showed up at a low dive at 11:30 pm, the manager of the place didn't suspect a thing, though the manager of one joint let it be known that "the identity of [the party's] members in some mysterious way had become known". In any event, the women were allowed to see some actual "Carusoing" perpetrated.] CARUSOING SHOCKS PARTY. The next stop was at Charlie West's, across the street. There the principal feature of note was the gay antics of the entertainers. These were a man and a woman, and they supplemented their vocal "stunt" with that latest cabaret innovation, "Carusoing," a name sufficiently expressive to describe the "stunt." It amused the patrons, but disgusted the party. "However," commented one of the visitors, "they are not catering to us." Chicago Herald, May 1, 1916, p. 1, col. 1 & p. 4, col. 3 When I read this story, I thought that the reporter who went along on this foray was taking the mickey of the women, and, indeed, I still think so, because it is a pretty funny story. If he was, though, his editor didn't notice, and no doubt just as well for the reporter; there was an editorial a couple of days later praising the ladies' good work. The only biography of Caruso at hand that's not written by a family member is strangely more interested in his singing career than his personal habits. He had been arrrested in 1906 in the monkey house of the Central Park Zoo, evidently for patting a woman's bottom. The biography claims that this was a set-up, and if the facts offered are correct -- the cop and the woman were old friends and had been through the routine before with other men -- it probably was. Still, people in 1916 were as ready to believe the worst about a celebrity as they are today, so perhaps a dance that involved some level of groping of the partner would be referred to as "carusoing". I suppose that it's also possible that the women were aesthetically shocked and disgusted, not morally. Perhaps "carusoing" involved off-key yowling? Any of you rounders ever done any "carusoing" when young? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Feb 12 21:02:42 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:02:42 -0500 Subject: Boat and Royal Family: Poker Terms In-Reply-To: <009501c3f1a5$613ef680$5eb58e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: >Never. Trips ... trip kings, trip ducks, etc... dInIs >Make that three of a kind, not triplet. > >But then again, do people say triplet to mean three of a kind...? > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett > >>I had forgotten about a "trip" for "triplet", so I'll go >>back and suggest that be inserted. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Feb 12 22:02:59 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:02:59 -0500 Subject: More on fireplugs Message-ID: At about the same time we were discussing fire hydrants and fire plugs here, there was a parallel discussion on the newsgroup alt.folklore.urban, under the unlikely subject heading: "The "Country Plug" [WAS: Scottish Castle Magic]". Well, not quite parallel. Lee Ayrton found some illuminating historical detail on fireplugs which seems germane. I repost the following, with his kind permission. In article , Lee Ayrton wrote: > On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Louise Bremner wrote: > > > Lee Ayrton wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Gerald Clough wrote: > > > > > > Around the fire station, we had an old hydrant mounted on a pipework > > > > base, so that it could be brought out for drills. More than once, a > > > > passerby asked what it was and was told that it was our "country plug" > > > > for fires out in the county where there were no regular hydrants and > > > > where we would throw out the country plug and hook up. More than one > > > > seemed satisfied with the answer. > > > > As much as I resisted the etymology the last time I forced myself to look > > > it up it appears that the term "fire plug" does, in fact, refer to the > > > antiquated practice of drilling holes in water mains in order to obtain > > > water to fight fires, then sealing the hole with a removable plug. The > > > would come in handy, and cut down on the mud considerably. > > > > So it's not a new idea? > > Apparently not, although, as I said above, I resisted it as too pat an > explanation. It sounded too much like "cop" is from the buttons > on police uniforms for me. See: > > 12. A Brief History of the Hydrant - Revised 1-28-2003 > > > [quote]---------------------- > In the photo at left is a shattered section of wooden water main that > was dug up in recent years. The hole bored into it is believed to be > that of a "fire plug", city of Cincinnati, Ohio, early 1800s. > [...] > According to author Curt Wohleber, writing in American Heritage "After > fire destroyed three-quarters of London in 1666, the city installed > new mains with predrilled holes and plugs that rose above ground > level."... ..."In the 1700s, valves began to replace the simple wood > [unquote]-------------------- > > Another source: > > > The above wouldn't connect, for whatever reason. Google cache: > > > > [quote]---------------------- > Source: Courtesy of Dick Riegler, Philadelphia Suburban Water > Company.800_hd08.jpg] Fire plugs and wood pipe. When hollowed-out wood > log pipes were first used for water conveyance in the late 1700s - > early 1800s, it became apparent that they could also be used as a > source of water to fight fires. When a fire occurred, the > firefighters (volunteers) dug down, found the log pipe, and augered > a hole through it. [Note: In some early water systems, such as > Philadelphia's -- followed soon thereafter by systems in New York > and Boston -- wood plugs were installed at specific locations (mid- > block, etc.) when the main itself was installed, so that the > firemen would know where to find a plug in advance.] Water would > fill the firemen's excavation,forming a "wet well" to either get > buckets of water from, or serving as a reservoir for pumps to pull > water from. > [unquote]-------------------- > > And, because three is a nice number for sources: > > 16. NOVA | Transcripts | Escape: Fire | PBS > > [quote]---------------------- > by more fire-resistant brick. Soon, a better water system went under > construction. Wooden mains were still used, but now, holes were > pre-cut in them. Removable plugs were placed in the hole. And they > were made long enough to reach above ground, marking, for the next > fire, exactly where the water was. This is the origin of the phrase > "fire plug," what some people still call hydrants today. But the Great > [unquote]-------------------- > > > I couldn't find anything in print in my big shelf of books on words. If > it isn't an accurate etymology, it least it is well-worn. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 13 01:25:36 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:25:36 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? Message-ID: George, I think your "monkey house" cite is the key. I pulled up the only early cite from newspaperarchive. Nov. 2, 1907 _Frederick MD. Daily News_ (I'll try to hit the highlights as the story is long) "A bitter arraignment of Mrs. Mabel Orton Buttle of 260 Lafayette street, New York city, on a crowded Forty second street car by Dr. Lazare Wischnewetzky, a medical specialist, whom Mrs. Buttle had never seen before, caused great excitement and resulted in the arrest of the physician. Wischnewetzky declared he was "cursading against Carusoing." Mrs. Buttle is a young widow of striking appearance and dresses in good taste. Her husband left her a comfortable fortune five years ago. Mrs. Buttle entered the car alone. A man and a boy squeezed over to make room, and she sat down on the crowded seat. She had gone a couple of blocks and was looking out the window when Dr. Wischnewetzky, who had been watching her narrowly from his seat near her, suddenly arose and, shaking his finger in her face, began his denunciation in an excited manner.... "I have been watching you, you miserable woman," shouted the excited specialist. "It is women like you who drive men to the monkey house. "I have been studying your type, and I have been studying you. It is such women as you who corrupt the morals of the young men and women of our cities, who send them to perdition. I saw you nudging the man sitting next you." (a few passengers come to her rescue, the police are called by the woman. They arrest the Dr. The Doc says at his arraignment '...Every time he went into a car women began edging up to him and elbowing him to attract his attention.') "They are always trying to 'Caruso' me." he said. They sent the Dr. to Bellevue for observation. SC From JNardoni at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 02:02:54 2004 From: JNardoni at AOL.COM (Joseph Nardoni) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:02:54 EST Subject: Offensive vernacular? Message-ID: Well, you ask some good questions. The use of the vernacular had nothing to do with the secretary at all. As he puts it, he was so embarrassed at having forgotten to tell her he would be out that he decided to make fun of himself in responding to her. He wanted to make himself look stupid because that was how he felt for having forgotten to notify her. (I think he realizes now how successful he was.) He was online at home, ready to send her the notice he was going to be out when he got distracted by another task and simply spaced it. He was neither put off by her message, which was merely a reminder to follow the procedure because it made things difficult on her, nor did he recognize it as a formal communication at all, since he has somewhat limited contact with this secretary--he greets her, asks her for things when she needs it, thanks her for fixing the copy machine when it goes haywire. It seemed natural to him that she would communicate by email because she would be sure he got the message without having to worry about having the opportunity to remind him in person. It felt like an informal reminder to him, so he responded in an informal manner. As some of the other responders have wondered about this, he doesn't subscribe to the hierarchical rivalry and putdowns that are rampant on our campus. He has steadfastly campaigned to get more money and better treatment for part time faculty and professional staff members, and when the administrative support staff was protesting during their last round of negotiations, he rallied with them. Furthermore, he's a Creative Writing Professor and is in the habit of making fun of himself, having published funny things about himself in the school magazine. I think he will be more circumspect in the future. I'm sure that what bothers him most is the implied charge of racism behind the criticism he is receiving. He happens to be the adoptive father of an African-American boy. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 13 03:09:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:09:00 -0500 Subject: "carusoing": what the hell is it? In-Reply-To: <005b01c3f1d0$48607b40$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: > Wischnewetzky declared he was "crusading against Carusoing." This must be the right sense: "Carusoing" = "frottage", "groping", or something similar. There existed another sense also: "Carusoing" = "singing loudly" (I guess): ---------- _T. Haviland Hicks Senior_ by J. Raymond Elderdice (1916): p. 91 (online): <> [a posse is coming, to stop his singing] ---------- ... but it doesn't exactly fit George Thompson's item where it appears that there were "vocal" and other [presumably non-vocal] "stunts". I wonder what the performers were doing exactly ... perhaps (or perhaps not) something very mild and decorous by modern Superbowl standards. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 13 05:50:05 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:50:05 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040212094305.01c6df88@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: >What is the story of this name for a White Castle Hamburger? Did WC's >registered name, "Slyder," come first, or the popular nickname for their >hamburger, "slider"? And when? I believe the trademark was registered after 1990 (one can look up the exact date at USPTO). I suppose this is deliberately "retro"? The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor "gut-bombs") back then. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 06:06:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:06:28 EST Subject: Push Polling (1994); Bloomberger Message-ID: I just got home from work at 11:05 p.m. Gotta be there at 8:30 a.m. tomorrow. This is nuts. I need a vacation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PUSH POLLING PUSH POLLING--5,320 Google hits, 836 Google Group hits "Push polling" is not in OED and not on the Word Spy. This article has made big internet news recently, although it may be a Kerry smear: http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000780.html February 06, 2004 Rumor: A Kerry Affair & Push Polling Rumor has it that John Kerry (D) is going to be outed by Time Magazine next week for having an affair with a 20 year old woman who remains unknown. The affair supposedly took place intermittently right up to Kerry's Fall 2002 announcement of candidacy. At present, this is nothing more than a rumor; and after such sordid tactics as the "push polling" that took place in South Carolina in the 2000 elections, can such rumors be credible during campaign cycles? Could this create a Democratic backlash against Republicans for perceived scandalmongering? Push Polling Let's rewind history and study another rumor, one which cost Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) his candidacy in 2000. McCain was running a close campaign against George Bush in South Carolina, when Karl Rove introduced his brilliant strategy: push polling (Rove has been involved in push polling since the early 70s). Essentially, calls were made to households asking ?Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?? Many took this to say that he had one, and seeing McCain and his wife on stage with their adopted Bangladeshi daughter, concluded that the rumor was true. The sight of the little dark skinned girl made the seed planted earlier grow, and McCain ended up losing South Carolina and subsequentially dropping out of the race. So what does push polling have to do with a rumor of Kerry having an affair? Well some would argue that they are merely separate heads of the same beast. Pointing an indignant finger at the machinations of Karl Rove, the Bush administration's strategist who has a penchant for dispersing rumors, many on the Democrat side will claim that Rove is up to his old shenanigans and that the rumors have no basis. What caused McCain to lose in 2000 could inspire Democrats to rally behind Kerry, and lead to a major rift between the parties and brings the race to a closer finish. Theoretical, but plausible. Echoes from Bubba Any mention of a purported sexual scandal would be incomplete without bringing up the notorious ex-President William Jefferson Clinton. With a presidency overshadowed by allegations of oral sex, abuse of power, misconduct, and asking for clarification of the word "is", Clinton's legacy passed on a need for greater scrutiny of presidential candidates and tore down the veil that used to protect the private lives of most politicians. One could draw a parallel between Clinton's misconduct and Kerry's possible extra-marital relationship, there is no doubt. While many argued that Clinton's affairs were nobody's business except his own, others clamored that the President had an obligation to reflect moral clarity and to be a beacon of marriage values. Whether it was a valid impeachable offense or not was yet another matter to argue. Push Me, Pull You Karl Rove, if given the right opportunity, would without doubt pounce on this rumor, and has proven that tactics such as push polling do work. It may not matter if the rumor is true or is a complete fabrication, it will be used against Kerry now, and should he make it past the primaries and become the Democratic nominee (which appears to be with certainty), he will certainly have to fend these and other rumors. Push polling is not intended to get accurate results for candidates to use in speeches, it is intended to wound the image of the opposition. It is "push", because it should push the person into believing something that is specious or rumor (i.e.- ?Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John Kerry for president if you knew he had sex with an intern?? ). It conveys that the caller has juicy information, and wants you to know, but indemnifies itself from liability by phrasing it as a question. It is also intended to pull the person taking the "poll" into dropping their candidate and voting for the opposition, and many times does, but this year may be an occasion for a large disenfranchised voter base who is disillusioned and tired of shady politicking practices. There could be a backlash against both major parties, but it is not guaranteed. Whatever the outcome, both major candidates may be badly bruised and tarnished if they allow scandalmongering and surreptitious polling tactics to take precedence over running an on-message campaign based on policies, truth, and exhortations of their accomplishments. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Push Polling Dan You ask for definition of push polling. See Washigton post 9 October 1994, article by David Broder "Beware the push poll". It ... bit.listserv.politics - Mar 8, 1995 by Margaret Healy - View Thread (4 articles) RIP: Virginia HB 1065 is dead. ... will re-appear in some form, and I urge you to ponder in the meantime what we in the profession SHOULD do about the problem of irresponsible push polling if we ... bit.listserv.por - Feb 1, 1995 by Thomas M. Guterbock - View Thread (1 article) Campaign polling bill sent back to committee ... solicit your support and input about how this bill could be re-written so that it would (1) introduce accountability to prevent abuses like push polling and (2 ... bit.listserv.por - Jan 17, 1995 (WWW.NEWSPAPAERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 5/30/1995 ...took office." The tactic is called "PUSH POLLING" because it aims to PUSH voters away.....are unlikely to admit defaming an opponent. PUSH POLLING tends to be used in local races.....of the information. Also, the results of a ' PUSH if released, give a seriously flawed and.....warning was issued last week, as legitimate POLLING starts getting under way in the 1996.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, May 30, 1995 615 k Gettysburg Times - 7/23/1996 ...t have enough money to buy advertising and PUSH POLLING. As proof, he compared the.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, July 23, 1996 533 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BLOOMBERGER "Burger Heaven" has just announced a new sandwich called the "Bloomberger," for New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg's birthday...(The meat is not smoked?) I don't know if this will be any better or worse than a "slider" or a "gut-bomb." From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Feb 13 07:17:30 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:17:30 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 13 09:27:59 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:27:59 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402122320.1aRxCP5FB3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Indigo Som >Subject: frypan/frying pan >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? No, you're not alone. I would say cast iron pan and frying pan. Grew up in NYC, and though skillet doesn't sound totally alien, I don't think I ever use it unless it's descriptive of something else, e.g. from menus or ads (skillet licking good?). Rima From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Feb 13 14:20:53 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040213002012.02eff610@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: >The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle >style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. >It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology >said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the >throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something >like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor >"gut-bombs") back then. > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall we say, without stopping. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 14:27:05 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:27:05 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040213091426.00b029c0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders until later; 60's is probably right. dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor "gut-bombs") back then. There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall we say, without stopping. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Feb 13 15:53:43 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:53:43 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: My father (born 1900, in Kansas) frequently used skillet, sometimes frying pan, never frypan. My mother (born 1908, in Wisconsin) seldom used skillet, usually frying pan, never frypan. I (born 1941, in Chicago) sometimes use skillet, usually frying pan, never frypan. Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Kim & Rima McKinzey >Subject: Re: frypan/frying pan >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Indigo Som >>Subject: frypan/frying pan >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? > >No, you're not alone. I would say cast iron pan and frying pan. >Grew up in NYC, and though skillet doesn't sound totally alien, I >don't think I ever use it unless it's descriptive of something else, >e.g. from menus or ads (skillet licking good?). > >Rima > From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:19:22 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:19:22 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb Message-ID: On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that carry over to the IN side of the river? Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > until later; 60's is probably right. > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > we say, without stopping. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:23:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:23:09 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <001701c3f24d$24404060$88580a23@user.msu.edu> Message-ID: Jim, Don't think so, but a little bell is going off in the back of my head. Course I hung around with a lot of Louisville types in the late 50s and cold have been contaminated. dInIs On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that carry over to the IN side of the river? Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > until later; 60's is probably right. > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > we say, without stopping. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Feb 13 16:34:09 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:34:09 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <001701c3f24d$24404060$88580a23@user.msu.edu> Message-ID: The term I first heard (mid-80s, while NJ had White Castle from way back, none were local to me) was "moider boiger" (murder burger). That's pronunciation--I never saw it written. Quoting James Stalker : > On the Kentucky side of the river in the 50s, I recall that we called White > Castle burgers armpits, generally more frequently than sliders. Did that > carry over to the IN side of the river? > > Jim Stalker > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:27 AM > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb > > > > Kathleen must have been from the greasy rather than greazy part of > > IN; down south we had White Castles in the 50s, but not as sliders > > until later; 60's is probably right. > > > > dInIs (whose current recommendation for an excellent accompaniment to > > a bag of sliders would be a Puglian Primitivo) > > > > > > At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > > > > > The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle > > style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. > > It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology > > said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the > > throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something > > like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor > > "gut-bombs") back then. > > > > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in > NJ. > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls > > them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the > > little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall > > we say, without stopping. > > > > Kathleen E. Miller > > Research Assistant to William Safire > > The New York Times > > > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > University Distinguished Professor > > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > > Asian and African Languages > > Wells Hall A-740 > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > > Office: (517) 353-0740 > > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > > > > -- > > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > > to improve security, as described below. > > > > Sanitizer (start="1076682465"): > > ParseHeader (): > > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > > Enforced policy: accept > > > > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. > > -- Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 13 17:04:07 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:04:07 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: My late friend Clayton McMichen who was from Georgia was a member of Gid Tanner's Skillet Licker Band aka known among names as Gid Tanner and The Skillet Lickers or Gid Tanner and The Lick the Skillet Band. Since Clayton died some 30 years ago you know how old I must be. I just called my mother who is 88 years old and who grew up in Centralia, Illinois and who still lives there what she called a pan in which she fried bacon, eggs and pancakes, and she called it a skillet. I hope this is of some use. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathryn Remlinger" To: Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: frying pans > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Kathryn Remlinger > Subject: frying pans > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I might be the least credible here, but in my central Ohio dialect I say > "skillet," no matter the metal. I use a couple descriptors like "iron > skillet" if it's made of iron, "non-stick skillet," for the teflon > types, and "electric skillet". I picked up the use of "fry pan," not > "frying pan," in eastern KY, but I usually don't use those terms. > > Kate > > ____________________ > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-331-3122 > fax: 616-331-3430 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Feb 13 16:31:57 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:31:57 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040213091426.00b029c0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as more recent and "fancier.") They all went to "the shore" too, of course. At 09:20 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:50 AM 2/13/2004 -0500, Doug Wilson wrote: > > >>The slang term "slider" meaning "[small greasy] hamburger" (White Castle >>style or similar) was used in the 1960's according to my own recollection. >>It was not restricted to White Castle in my experience. The folk etymology >>said that the burger was small and greasy enough that it slid down the >>throat without the need for active chewing or swallowing ... or something >>like that. I believe no major company would have advertised "sliders" (nor >>"gut-bombs") back then. > >There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. >Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early >80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. He recalls >them being called sliders back then. And, in his opinion, the reason the >little burgers were called such was because they went in - and out - shall >we say, without stopping. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From panis at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 13 19:14:46 2004 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:14:46 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <200402131830.i1DIU0PY447614@yipvmb.prodigy.net> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his >grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a >Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as >more recent and "fancier.") to Kathleen E. Miller's: >> Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >>mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc this to him and report back. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Fri Feb 13 19:29:26 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <0HT100F38CPZ62@smtp3.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Feb 13 20:50:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:50:12 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040213132829.0293d8f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joan! I thought you might have something, but I'm at home and DARE is in the library. . . . At 01:29 PM 2/13/2004 -0600, you wrote: >There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found >chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 02:17:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:17:51 EST Subject: ABBA (Anyone But Bush Again); Sweep the Board Message-ID: ABBA (ANYONE BUT BUSH AGAIN ABBA, according to Newsweek's Anna Quindlen, is not a Swedish singing group but rather a person who lives in the Upper West Side of Manhattan and will vote for Anybody But Bush Again. ---NEW YORK SUN, 13 February 2004, pg. 3, cols. 1-2. ABBA + ""BUT BUSH AGAIN"--531 Google hits, 74 Google Groups hits Please! No one vote for Abba! I liked Abba Eban as much as anyone, but he died in 2002!! (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: OT: At last ...the truth about ABBA ... That's a political party that doesn't exist until after someone gets nominated. It has a single issue: unity. My party is called ABBA: Anyone But Bush Again. ... rec.arts.theatre.musicals - Jun 13, 2003 by Bushwhacker - View Thread (2 articles) Looking at 2004: MoveOn Bulletin (fwd) ... doc.mhtml?i=20030609&s=hendricks ----- ABBA CADABRA Liz Langley, AlterNet My new political party, ABBA (Anyone But Bush Again), is an ... fa.fiction-of-philosophy - Jun 13, 2003 by Alan Sondheim - View Thread (1 article) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SWEEP THE BOARD There's probably no way I'll be able to be in William Safire's column again and he'll admit errors every month, but this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES column is absolutely wrong: (http://www.nytimes.com) After political sages stopped speculating about Howard Dean running the table and started guessing that John Kerry would do it, the columnist Robert Novak tried to break out of clicheville with ''Kerry's aides won't admit it publicly, but they see a chance to sweep the board.'' This is a basketball phrase. I put the full-court press on Tom Jolly, The Times's sports editor, who dribbled a while, thinking it over, before opining that ''to sweep the boards is to dominate the rebounds until the score is made. The 'boards' are the backboards behind the basket.'' (He will undoubtedly be inundated with mail from fans certain it refers to floorboards, scoreboards or college boards. Better him than me.) But assuming Jolly is right, is the metaphor already outdated? To allow spectators seated in rows behind the baskets to see the action, the old wooden boards have been replaced by unbreakable glass or transparent plastic. ''That's true,'' says my colleague, ''which is why you now hear cleaning the glass.'' A glass backboard is still a "backboard." I hear "sweep the boards" used all the time. But it's never "sweep the board." This is NOT a basketball phrase. It's a gambling phrase. And it's not even new--it pre-dates basketball! (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Bedford Gazette - 9/10/1926 ...It is a gambling phrase, and means to SWEEP THE BOARD of all THE stakes literally.....Phrases That Now Are Household Words "To SWEEP THE deck" sounds like a THE actor who.....on THE left, THE one' with THE v high BOARD fence around it, is THE studio of THE.....hard, like agates, were scanning THE high BOARD fence, from it THEy turned with a look.. Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, September 10, 1926 802 k Daily Gazette And Bulletin - 2/23/1888 ...SOUTH WilLIAMSPORT. THE REPUBLICANS SWEEP THE BOARD CLEAN. r( KtttrriT Tli THE uutl.....WUiivte 279; J THUtBJUAY. KKHRUARY 23, 1888 THE SMOKE OF THE ELECTION 188; H It. Meliok.....H McFiulden. iiuil in familv ul WITPR, and THE odSWon vm wry THE ta net. In.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Thursday, February 23, 1888 669 k Hornellsville Tribune - 10/27/1871 ...in THE field next spring and shall "SWEEP THE BOARD" as gamblers say. We are watching.....politics of this country, and who, in THE BOARD of Supervisors was always ready to do.....Senate, and as such a member of tho Canal BOARD, ho voted for numberless iniquitous.....Washington to have Oaksnu'th and all on BOARD arrested and REMOVED OUT OF WOODFOTD'B.. Hornellsville, New York Friday, October 27, 1871 475 k Janesville Daily Gazette - 9/26/1860 ...country is all right. Honest old Abe will SWEEP THE BOARD by thousands. THE Douglas men.....LEVI ALDEN, of Janesville. for Clerk of THE BOARD, S. L. JAMES, of Beloit. .For IHstrict.....MUST BE MAINTAINED. IT 13 THE LAST, THE ONLY HOPE OF THE SOUTH." So we ace that.....by THE British government to enquire into THE working of THE educational system of THE.. Janesville, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 26, 1860 1038 k Titusville Morning Herald - 2/27/1871 ...can play those three cards again, he will SWEEP THE BOARD. "Wo have no hesita tion in.....of THE syed Guy order Mrs. Wood's last book, ha THE old gal writer well, in oi her.....landlord ban never been paid for two weeks BOARD, not for many drinks, nor for THE clean.....men from THE pit. THE alarm subsided and THE wott.wae re sumed. THE men dug, and dog.. Titusville, Pennsylvania Monday, February 27, 1871 960 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 09:42:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:42:48 EST Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald Message-ID: SURSTROMMING SURSTROMMING--1,180 Google hits, 1,400 Google Groups hits I was looking at "alt.food," and there is an "alt.food.surstromming." Not in OED ("miserable on food"). (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 11/20/1967 ...for its geese. In some northern provinces, SURSTROMMING, a fermented delicacy made from.. Walla Walla, Washington Monday, November 20, 1967 739 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- AFTERPARTY AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an "afterparty"? Sleep? Are there after-recipes for it? WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March 17, 1980 in the WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. (GOOGLE) UrbanDictionary.com/afterparty ... definitions. Define your world. 4 definitions of afterparty. after party (27K WAV by Marquetta). ... Show a random word. afterparty, 2 votes. Compound ... www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=afterparty - 9k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) San Antonio Collge Festival (was Re: Duquesne Tamburitzans) ... There will an afterparty at 10PM with the Tamburitzans, SAC Gym, soft soled shoes PLEASE! Saturday night features a folk dance concert ... rec.folk-dancing - Feb 28, 1992 by Joel Breazeale - View Thread (1 article) Where the $^@#&% is Olivia? I caught her on the afterparty for the MTV Music Awards (and also right next to a camera during "Enter Sandman") but I've missed her on WY. ... rec.arts.tv - Feb 15, 1992 by Charles Anthony Leone - View Thread (1 article) no subject (file transmission) At a sm afterparty, a mistress (normally) was being topped by a very dominant male, and both were definitely my friends, but not lovers. ... alt.sex.bondage - Jun 18, 1991 by wi.351 at wizvax.methuen.ma.us - View Thread (8 articles) Laguna Festival, CA ... Join us for a weekend of fun: Friday, February 9 Dance Workshop 7:30 - 11:00 pm $6.00 Afterparty 11:00 - 2:00 am $3.00 Saturday, February 10 Advanced Workshop ... rec.folk-dancing - Feb 2, 1990 by Scott Erickson - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) California Statewide Folk Dance Festival ... Culver City Friday, May 24 8-11 pm Pre-Party $6 Saturday, May 25 10:30 am-1 pm Institute $6 2:30-5 pm Dance $5 8-11 pm Dance $7 11 pm-1 am After-party $6 Sunday ... rec.folk-dancing - May 14, 1991 by cisvms!us048503 at serc.3m.COM - View Thread (2 articles) Re: David Lee Roth ... The last time I saw Jason was when Megadeth and Judas Priest was in town. He was at Megadeth's after- party, and was talking with Marty and a bunch of friends. ... alt.rock-n-roll.metal - Mar 7, 1991 by Linda M. - View Thread (16 articles) Re: Relevance and Veracity ... Back in the good old days, which I'm sure Caryn remembers, after party lines became a thing of the past and before Usenet, if you wanted to really do someone ... soc.singles - Nov 5, 1990 by Charleen Bunjiovianna Stoner - View Thread (31 articles) Re: Does dreaming take place in real-time? ... sleep). - Dreamed in real time; ie a typical eight-hour scenario (show plus after- party, for example) took just that much time. ... alt.dreams - Jun 7, 1990 by The Grey Wolf - View Thread (7 articles) Re: Where are all the Folk Dancers? ... I still recall the disappointment my husband and I had several years ago at an after-party at the National Square Dance Convention. ... rec.folk-dancing - Apr 27, 1990 by Tom Roby - View Thread (20 articles) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTER PARTY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES IN THE NATURE OF A TELEVISION PROGRAM FEATURING LIVE ACTION, COMEDY AND DRAMA; PROVIDING INFORMATION IN THE FIELD OF ENTERTAINMENT AND EDUCATION BY MEANS OF A GLOBAL COMPUTER NETWORK Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78058111 Filing Date April 12, 2001 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition October 2, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) VIACOM INTERNATIONAL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1515 BROADWAY NEW YORK NEW YORK 10036 Attorney of Record DANIEL CHUNG Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTERPARTY Goods and Services IC 013. US 002 009. G & S: FIREWORKS. FIRST USE: 20000901. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20001015 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75943450 Filing Date March 10, 2000 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition January 2, 2001 Registration Number 2707465 Registration Date April 15, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) UNITED PYROTECHNICS, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1638 Galvez Ave. San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94124 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark AFTER-PARTY Goods and Services IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Hair Care preparations. FIRST USE: 20010401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75907129 Filing Date February 1, 2000 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition June 5, 2001 Registration Number 2660079 Registration Date December 10, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) TONI & GUY (USA) LIMITED CORPORATION UNITED KINGDOM 2311 MIDWAY ROAD CARROLLTON TEXAS 75006 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record David W. Carstens Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Many bad hits--ed.) Marysville Journal Tribune - 5/20/1977 ...group Black Leather Touch will perform. The AFTERPARTY should end by 3 a.m. (By Mark.....Getty Jr. gets. His dad left him a total of Book publishers are often pristinely poor.. Marysville, Ohio Friday, May 20, 1977 612 k Marysville Journal Tribune - 4/29/1977 ...and Mrs. George Milter are chairmen for the AFTERPARTY. Approximately 25 junior parents.. Marysville, Ohio Friday, April 29, 1977 612 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/8/1966 ...put their names on the list to call at the AFTERPARTY. Si had called the year before at.....had to undergo extensive treatment. The book is interestingly written and presents.....biblical times. The opening chapter of "The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel" describes a.....sun was coming up in the East. The square book: dancer's dateBat Jack waaa't going to.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, October 08, 1966 666 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOCKTAIL See "mocktail" in ADS-L archives. (ANCESTRY.COM) 16 July 1956, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 12, cols. 6-8 caption: POSITIVE APPRAOCH--Deciding to take a positive approach to the alcohol problem, some 200 young people attending the Norwalk District Methodist Youth Fellowship Institute at Lakeside last week sponsored a "mocktail" party to show other teen-agers that it isn't necessary to drink alcoholic beverages in order to have a good time. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Newport Daily News - 5/16/1957 ...after the Junior prorn. Belty Duly gave a "MOCKTAIL" party at her home. Having wonderful.. Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, May 16, 1957 440 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/18/1959 ...of the Lorain Christian Temple tomorrow. A "MOCKTAIL" party is planned by the Senior.....Friday. This is the dramatization of the Book of Exodus, the life of Moses and the.....JUDAISM ty LIO IAIK, Chief talta. tl.ft THE BOOK SHOP 1 M4MM Vfffrttn C 9Vp0rfM 9f An.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, April 18, 1959 754 k Piqua Daily Call - 12/3/1945 ...AND HOME MADE SOUPS. Hooper's Restaurant MOCKTAIL Bar 529 N. MAIN STREET ON DIXIE.. Piqua, Ohio Monday, December 03, 1945 1100 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/16/1936 ...the inset is a section of the tourist class MOCKTAIL bar. The ship itself, under full.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, May 16, 1936 1206 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW YORK HERALD The NEW YORK HERALD was one of the greatest newspapers in American history. It later combined with the New York Tribune \onto the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE. Ancestry.com lists this database addition for 2/13/2004: Description: The New York Herald newspaper was located in New York, New York. This database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the following years: 1869-72, 1969, and 1971-72. Great! It's finally being digitized! One problem--the paper folded in 1966! Maybe 1969 and 1971-72 is the INTERNATIONAL HERALD-TRIBUNE? From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 14 13:43:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:43:09 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. dInIs Beverly Flanigan wrote: Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as more recent and "fancier.") to Kathleen E. Miller's: Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc this to him and report back. John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 14 16:38:21 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:38:21 -0500 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <12a.3b7608e7.2d5f4798@aol.com> Message-ID: >SURSTROMMING Fermented/rotten fish, supplied even today in cans swollen with gas from decomposition. Only for those with specialized tastes. (^_^) The NEW YORK HERALD was one of the greatest newspapers in American >history. It later combined with the New York Tribune \onto the NEW YORK >HERALD >TRIBUNE. > Ancestry.com lists this database addition for 2/13/2004: > >Description: >The New York Herald newspaper was located in New York, New York. This >database is a fully searchable text version of the newspaper for the >following years: >1869-72, 1969, and 1971-72. > > Great! It's finally being digitized! > One problem--the paper folded in 1966! Maybe 1969 and 1971-72 is the >INTERNATIONAL HERALD-TRIBUNE? No, just another database error. It looks like 1869-1872 is about it. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Feb 14 17:17:52 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:17:52 -0500 Subject: Sweep the Board Message-ID: Now we see why Kathleen gave the disclaimer about Safire doing his own research for a few weeks. John Baker From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Feb 14 17:31:39 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:31:39 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe that's where it originated (I have no idea), but the few people I know who've used it have no Italian ancestry, so they picked it up somewhere. I'm under the impression that it caught on because it avoids the "ageism" associated with "grandma." At 08:43 AM 2/14/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were >simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this >is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. > >dInIs > > > > > > > >Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >Ah, Pop-Pop! My ex-husband from Baltimore used that term for his >grandfather, and I think he said Mom-Mom for grandmother. Is this just a >Maryland/New Jersey thing, or is it more widespread? (I think of Nana as >more recent and "fancier.") > >to Kathleen E. Miller's: > > Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the >mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. > >I grew up in the early '60's calling my paternal grandparents Pop-Pop >and Nana; they were from Reading, Pennsylvania, so it was at least a >little more widespread. I hadn't ever thought of it before but I >assume it was my father's terms for his own grandparents. I'll bcc >this to him and report back. > >John >-- > > >*** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, >California, U.S.A. *** > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Feb 14 17:55:15 2004 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:55:15 -0500 Subject: nana Message-ID: I think that the popularity of the word "Nana" comes from its use in Peter Pan, despite the fact that it's the name of the dog... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Feb 14 18:06:15 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:06:15 -0600 Subject: Caesarean section--Julius Caesar was evidently not delivered this way Message-ID: OED2 says of "Caesarean birth, operation, section": "the delivery of a child by cutting through the walls of the abdomen when delivery cannot take place in the natural way, as was done in the case of Julius Caesar." _The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology_, however, is more cautious: "1615 'Caesarean section,"...; so called from the belief (often disputed) that Julius Caesar was born by means of this operation." Meanwhile, note "Origin Of the Term: Cesarean Section" in _Gynecologic, Obstetric, and Related Surgery_, edited by David H Nichols and Daniel L. Clarke-Pearson (St. Louis et al: Mosby), 2000, pp.1114-1115: "Pliny, who some refer to as a 'lying historian,' was in error when he stated that some of the Caesars, Julius in particular, were delivered by an abdominal incision. ...Festus stated that those persons delivered by abdominal incision were called 'caesones.' [G. Cohen: from "caesus" = cut]. Isidorus of Seville firmly and erroneously established the relationship between the operation and the person Julius Caesar and referred to such persons as 'Caesares.' According to Pundel, Rousset, author of the first text on the subject, became confused with Pliny's Latin text. -- de Chauliac and Roesslin both perpetuated the story, and it has been repeated in print as late as March 1985. The myth was preserved in the Middle Ages in many manuscripts in the 1300s in _the Faits des Romains_. The first printed version of _The Twelve Caesars written in the second century, printed in 1506, includes a woodblock print that purports to be the first picture of a cesarean section. This is an error because Aurelia was present at his triumphs." [G. Cohen; Aurelia was Caesar's mother; assumption: a Caesarean section in early times would be performed only on a woman not expected to survive.] Bottom line: 1) OED should be cautious about saying that Julius Caesar was delivered by Caesarean section. 2) An overall study of the origin of "Caesarean section"--especially with bibliographic references--might be in order. Gerald Cohen P.S. Re: Pundel (mentioned above), I see a J.P. Pundel wrote _Histoire de L'Op?rqtion Cesarienne_ (1969), and that it's said to have a bibliography. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat Feb 14 23:01:33 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:01:33 -0800 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <200402140943.i1E9gwBj001965@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Barry, for these. I have submitted afterparty as a candidate for nijikai to the Japanese-English dictionary I am helping edit. In the past, I have always glossed this as the "party after the party". Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >AFTERPARTY > >AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits >AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits > > I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an >"afterparty"? Sleep? > Are there after-recipes for it? > WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March >17, 1980 in the WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Feb 14 23:30:26 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:30:26 EST Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" writes: > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the shore in NJ. > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. There used to be a White Castle on the corner of the Black Horse Pike and Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down maybe ten years ago and was replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is NO White Castle on the Black Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP meets the Expressway), nor on US 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only White Castle in New Jersey that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick and Princeton. What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go danceries, including the one whose marquee reads SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS now serving lunch If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a "slider", did the term derive from the baseball pitch (which did not become common in the major leagures until circa 1950)? For what it's worth, I have no recollection of coming across the name "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in 1986. For the benefit of those not familiar with South Jersey, there are two roads running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White Horse Pike (US 30) runs from the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) section of Atlantic City. The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman Bridge to the "Downbeach" (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various portions of it are numbered as US 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the name "White Horse Pike" came first and is from the name of a tavern on the road. - Jim Landau From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Feb 14 23:46:30 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:46:30 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: <7e.46ff212c.2d600992@aol.com> Message-ID: There's a White Castle in Toms River on Route 37, near the Hooper Ave intersection. Those who go to the beach in Seaside or Island Beach State Park pass it on their way from the Parkway. It's relatively new (the last decade or so). As I said earlier, Toms River was devoid of White Castle until after I grew up and left town. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:30 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo > > > In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" > writes: > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike going down the > shore in NJ. > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new experience for me in the early > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the place going back to the > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with Pop-Pop and Nana. > > There used to be a White Castle on the corner of the Black Horse Pike and > Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down maybe ten years > ago and was > replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is NO White Castle > on the Black > Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP meets the > Expressway), nor on US > 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only White Castle > in New Jersey > that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick and Princeton. > > What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go danceries, > including the one > whose marquee reads > SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS > now serving lunch > > If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a "slider", did the > term derive > from the baseball pitch (which did not become common in the major leagures > until circa 1950)? > > For what it's worth, I have no recollection of coming across the name > "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in 1986. > > For the benefit of those not familiar with South Jersey, there > are two roads > running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White Horse Pike (US > 30) runs from > the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) section of > Atlantic City. > The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman Bridge to the "Downbeach" > (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various portions of it > are numbered as US > 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the name "White Horse Pike" > came first and is from the name of a tavern on the road. > > - Jim Landau > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 01:16:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:16:55 -0500 Subject: Glatt Kosher (1964); Bagel/Bialy; Depression Cake, Shlishkes, Nahit, Fluden (1937) Message-ID: Some stuff before I leave for Panama in about 11 hours. Be back next Sunday. --------------------------------------------------------------- GLATT KOSHER Earlier still. April 1964, KOSHER FOOD GUIDE (NYC), vol. 30, no. 2, pg. 19 ad: MEIBACH'S BURNSIDE MANOR DISTINCTIVE GLATT KOSHER CATERERS 85 West Burnside Avenue, Bronx 53, N. Y. --------------------------------------------------------------- BAGEL, BIALY A worthwhile article. July 1964, KOSHER FOOD GUIDE, pg. 24: COURTESY OF YOUNG ISRAEL--VIEWPOINT _BAGELS ARE BIG BUSINESS_ By RICHARD YAFFEE No one is quite sure how the bagel originated, nor even how it got its name, but of this there is no doubt: Sunday breakfast for American Jews, especially for New York Jews, has become almost unthinkable without this petrified doughnut, with or without lox and cream cheese (preferably with). And not only for Jews: church clubs now buy them for their Sunday breakfast, and there are special green ones for St. Patrick's Day. Some 300,000 of these hard-crusted, doughnut-shaped delicacies roll out of thirty-six bagel factories daily, double that amount for the Sunday breakfast trade, in New York City, Long Island and New Jersey (Pg. 25--ed.)--bakeries which employ only 250 workers, all members of a single union, all specialists in a trade that no other local or any other trade union performs. (...) The bagel makers turn up a disdainful nose at rival products competing for a place on the breakfast tables, like the "bialystoker roll," called "bialy" for short. This is a doughy, chewy, round affair, usually dotted with onions, and slightly depressed in the center. The greatest disdain, however, is for the "egg bagel" which they calim is not a bagel at all because it is not boiled before baking, and they would probably sue to strip the imitators of the hallowed name, of the name itself had not been in the public domain for so long. (...)(Pg. 28--ed.) Bagel Box produces some 70,000 bagels a week, and the bakers wear inscribed on their "T-shirts" the legend proclaiming their place of work to be the home of the "original onion water bagel," and showing a picture of a smiling onion wearing a bagel as a hat. --------------------------------------------------------------- DEPRESSION CAKE & SHLISHKES & NAHIT & FLUDEN DEPRESSION CAKE--737 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits SHLISHKES--24 Google hits NAHIT + JEWISH--111 Google hits, 60 Google Group hits FLUDEN--355 Google hits, 25 Google Group hits TAGLACH--24 Google hits, 3 Google Group hits TAYGLACH--100 Google hits, 19 Google Group hits TAIGLACH--212 Google hits, 52 Google Group hits TEIGLACH--240 Google hits, 18 Google Group hits (OED has 1903 for "teiglach") "Depression Cake" and "Shlishkes" and "Nahit" and "Fluden" are all not in the OED ("miserable on food"). (GOOGLE GROUPS) (Shlishkes) From: Ruth Heiges (heiges at ccsg.tau.ac.il) Subject: Re: Schliskas (Hungarian?) Newsgroups: rec.food.cuisine.jewish Date: 1997/09/08 J Freeman wrote: > I am looking for a recipe for Schliskas (not sure of the spelling). It > was made by my Hungarian grandmother. If anyone has a recipe for this, I > would surely appreciate. Thanks! Gil Marks ("The World of Jewish Cooking") gives _shlishkes_ as a variation on _kartoffel kloese_, Ashkenazic mashed-potato dumplings. He notes they are like _gnocchi_, but firmer and without the ridge patterns. (GOOGLE GROUPS) (Nahit) From: karen ann hohne (khohne at ix.netcom.com) Subject: Re: Nahit Newsgroups: rec.food.cuisine.jewish Date: 1998/02/01 In article <6b2thv$gn4 at news.dx.net>, "bobk" wrote: Here's the recipe for nahit from Claudia Roden's wonderful new book The Book of Jewish Food: "Nahit--Arbis Sweet Chickpeas This is traditionally served hot or cold to guests on the first Friday night after the birth of a baby son. Soak the chickpeas for at least an hour, then drain and simmer in fresh water for 1 1/2 hours, adding a little salt as they begin to soften. Serve with sugar or honey." (GOOGLE GROUPS)(Depression Cake) Poor Man's Cake (2) Collection ... Poor Man's Cake (YANKEE magazine) An old-fashioned dessert that was especially popular in the 1930s and is sometimes known as Depression Cake. ... rec.food.recipes - Aug 1, 2002 by Mary Victoria Parker - View Thread (1 article) "Depression Cake" A lovely moist cake, although beware that is does not rise terribly much. Good sort of thing for 'afternoon tea', if anybody else still partakes of that! ... alt.food.vegan - May 23, 2000 by Lucee - View Thread (1 article) Re: Rosy Spice Cake recipes ... or buttermilk) called Mother-in-Law Cake, which were also sometimes called Hard Times Cake, and I've seen Hard Times cakes also called Depression Cake, or even ... rec.food.cooking - Jun 4, 1998 by Diana Hamilton - View Thread (1 article) Re: Eggless chocolate cake was OT Food Allergy Help Here is my grandmother's Depression cake. It is made without eggs, milk, or butter, a spicecake that is still yummy today. In a ... rec.crafts.textiles.quilting - Jan 29, 2004 by Judy Grevenites - View Thread (8 articles) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Depression Cake) Chronicle Telegram - 6/28/1932 ...4 pints. MRS. M. MOORE, 4 16. East 'Elyria. DEPRESSION CAKE 1-2 cup shortening 2 cups.....ease. Lindbergh' referred to his black note book. "He described the boat that he had been.....CAKE pans. Add pineapple filling. Pour CAKE batter over this and. bake as layer CAKE.....iate in the evening a delicious birthday CAKE ?-.nd other refreshments were senvd. Mrs.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, June 28, 1932 903 k Chronicle Telegram - 7/7/1933 ...Pass inward -6 South American mountains "S DEPRESSION CAKE made of oals o3 Slip-knot 36.....with games after which ice -cream and1 CAKE v.-cre served. BRIEFS. The Grange will.....and third wedding anniversary. cream and CAKE were served. Ice Chicago and also.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, July 07, 1933 645 k (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Depression Cake) Favorite Recipes; In Our Family Breakfast Muffins Cinnamon Coffee Cake Oh So Good Cake Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 12, 1935. p. 8 (1 page): The following recipe, some call "Depression Cake," but as we didn't like the name "Depression," we call it "Oh, So Good." It is made without eggs or milk, and very economical: _Oh So Good Cake_ Mix together 1/2 cup shortening 1 cup sugar 1 1/2 cups water 3 squares chocolate or 6 tablespoons cocoa 1/2 teaspoon cinnamon 1/2 cup raisins Stir over fire until it boils. Let cool and add 2 cups flour 2 teaspoons baking powder salt vanilla. Bake in a shallow loaf pan in a moderate overn 350 degrees F. It needs no frosting. THE JEWISH EXAMINER PRIZE KOSHER RECIPE BOOK VOLUME I Edited by "BALABUSTA" Woman's Page Editor of _The Jewish Examiner_ Brooklyn, New York: The Judea Publishing Corporation 1937 Pg. 4: Potatonick (Potato Bread)...Refrigerator Rolls Pg. 16: Depression Cake By Mrs. Manuel Sarasky 821 Cassatt St., Pittsburgh, Pa. 2 eggs 1 cup oil 2 cups Jack Frost sugar 3 teaspoons baking powder 1 teaspoon lemon or orange extract 3 1/2 to 4 cups flour (dough slightly thicker than sponge cake) 2 cups water 3 tablespoons cocoa Beat yolks well, combine with sugar, fold in well-beaten egg whites, pour oil and mix thoroughly. Add soda, baking powder and fruit. Sift flour, add alternately water and flour until batter is fairly thick. Take about seven tablespoonfuls of batter, mix well with the cocoa, giving you two batters, light and dark. Now grease pan and pour on layer of light batter and dark batter alternately. Bake one hour. Pg. 18: Fluden By Mrs. L. Stein 675 E. 140th St., Bronx, N. Y. 6 glasses flour handful Jack Frost sugar pinch of salt 1 teaspoon baking powder 1 egg Mix these with enough cold water to make a not-too-soft dough 2 pounds walnuts (ground) 1 pound white raisins 4 glasses Jack Frost sugar 4 glasses crumbs of white bread 2 teaspoons cinnamon 2 lemons' juice vanilla jelly Cut the dough into 18 equal pieces. Roll one and spread out rather thickly in well greased pan. Oil the dough evenly on top. Pour about 2 teaspoons of mixture over the oiled dough. Pour over this a few drops of lemon juice and a few drops of vanilla. Roll and spread each piece of dough besides the first and the last, as thinly as possible. After repeating this procedure till the ninth piece of dough is used, make one full layer of thick cherry or raspberry jelly. Then, another piece of the dough, thinly rolled, oiled, a handful of the mixture, a few drops of lemon juice, vanilla, etc., until the last piece of dough is used (thickly) to cover it all. Heat stive 15 minutes before putting in cake. Bake one hour by slow light. Extinguish light and leave inside 20-30 minutes. When cold, cut into desired shapes. Wet each piece on top wioth cold water, lightly, and dip into sugar. Pg. 25: Taglach Pg. 46: Nahit (Russian Peas) By Mrs. R. M. Justir 1506 Sheridan Ave. No., Minneapolis, Minn. 1 pound Russian peas 1 tablespoon salt 1/4 teaspoon soda 2 tablespoons chicken fat 2 tablespoons flour 2 tablespoons Jack Frost sugar 1/2 pound brisket of beef hot water Place peas in kettle, add salt and hot water and let soak for 12 hours. Drain, return to kettle, cover with boiling water, cook for 15 minutes, add soda nad meat, and let cook slowly several hours until peas are tender. Melt chicken fat, add flour and sugar, let brown, add one cup of liquid from the peas, cook until thick and smooth. Pour over the peas, cook thoroughly, then place in casserole and bake in moderate oven half hour. Pg. 49: Shlishkas By Mrs. Rose Steinberg 1615 University Ave., Bronx, N. Y. 4 potatoes 1 cup flour salt to taste butter or fat 1 old roll or chale Cook potatoes in their jackets, then peel and grate them. Add flour, egg and salt, and make a dough. CUt slices of dough, knead them into long, thin rolls and cut into one-inch pieces. Then cook them (like noodles) in boiling water and drain. Grate the roll or chale, brown it in a pan with butter or fat, add the pieces and let them all brown or form crusts. Pg. 65: Old Fashioned Essic Flashe Pg. 73: Pesachdigge Sponge Cake Pg. 83: Milchica Soup From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Feb 15 02:02:39 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:02:39 -0600 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... Message-ID: Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. "Fry pan" one. "Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. Blank one. Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how much that matters. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 02:10:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:10:14 -0500 Subject: "Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!" (1955) Message-ID: PRISONER IN A CHINESE BAKERY--92 Google hits, 42 Google Groups hits This is a classic fortune cookie joke, perhaps of interest to Fred Shapiro. It was not coined by Alan King's 1964 book title. This line has been discussed on alt.usage.english and the Cecil Adams newsgroup. The latest LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization helps. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Help! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery Author: King, Alan, 1927-; Shurman, Jack, Publication: New York, Dutton, 1964 Document: English : Book Libraries Worldwide: 386 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) CITYSIDE Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 4, 1955. p. 2 (1 page): CITY LIMITS--Story is going around about a customer in a Chinese restaurant who opened one of those fortune cookies. Written in red ink on the slip inside was: "Help! I am being held prisoner by the Hong Kong Noodle Co." Troubles Of A Sleeping Beauty LESLIE LIEBER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 4, 1956. p. K17 (2 pages) Pg. 19: Nor will producers soon forget the night Kim was supposed to sit on the bed and open Chinese fortune cookies--the kind that contain slips of paper with prophecies like, "You will make a long voyage." As a gag, the script called for her to read, "Help, I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!" Unfortunately, though, the cookie was empty. Disconcerted, the girl on camera forgot her lines and just ate the cookie. But two minutes later, after curling up in bed and switching off the lights, she suddenly remembered. Just before the program went off the air, she let out a scream of distress: "Help!!! I'm a prisoner in a Chinese bakery!!!" Listeners stayed awake a long time figuring that one out. (The program was "Count Sheep" with Nancy Berg--ed.) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Feb 15 03:09:15 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... In-Reply-To: <402ED33F.6000503@visi.com> Message-ID: Since Methodists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, I don't get the ethnic link. What more likely matters is the regional origin of the members of this particular congregation. I suspect they're one or two generations out of the South and South Midland, if DARE and our list contributors are on track. BTW, I remember this area in Minneapolis, and this church may be largely black. Is that the link you're driving at? At 08:02 PM 2/14/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin >Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. > >"Fry pan" one. > >"Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. > >Blank one. > >Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue >to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how >much that matters. > > >-- >Dan Goodman >Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or >http://dsgood.blogspot.com >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 03:34:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:34:54 -0500 Subject: Margarita (1954); OT: Popcorn and the Movies (1945) Message-ID: MARGARITA I've posted earlier for "Margarita," but these latest LOS ANGELES TIMES citations are worth a look. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. CITYSIDE GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 8, 1954. p. 2 (1 page): ROSARITO BEACH--In the afternoon you sip a Margarita and gaze pensively across the wide strand. This is a sort of Mexican daiquiri belted hard by the international set at Acapulco. Tequila, Cointreau and lemon juice. Salt the rim of the glass like you sugar a daiquiri. They carry a big stick gently. When sipped in the afternoon, they mellow the memory of morning and tinsel the prospect of evening. I get the impression they were named for a sultry lady who was the toast of the foreign colony, although margarita is also Spanish for daisy. And it figures. (...) THE LOBSTER taquitos go well with the Margarita, very little hot sauce. 2. CITYSIDE GENE SHERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 8, 1955. p. 2 (1 page): Was introduced to the Margarita, tequila's answer to the Martini, while in Mexico some weeks ago. Now informed the Margarita was invented by Mr. Johnny Durlesser, head barman of the Tail o' the Cock, in 1937. --------------------------------------------------------------- OT: POPCORN AND THE MOVIES Andy Smith, famous editor of the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, was in the NEW YORK TIMES on February 9th: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/09/nyregion/09RUBI.html Samuel M. Rubin, Vendor, Dies at 85; Put Fresh Popcorn in Theaters By DOUGLAS MARTIN Published: February 9, 2004 Samuel M. Rubin, who was known as "Sam the Popcorn Man" for making popcorn almost as popular in New York City movie theaters as jokes and kisses, died on Thursday. He was 85. He died in Boynton Beach, Fla., his daughter, Karen Rubin, said. Movies had prospered without popcorn until the Great Depression, when theater owners scrambled to make up for reduced ticket prices by turning to "audible edibles." The appetite of moviegoers was so great that from 1934 to 1940, the nation's annual popcorn harvest grew from 5 million to 100 million pounds. Marty Winter, who worked for Mr. Rubin and in turn employed him over their careers of more than 60 years in the movie concession business, recalled that Mr. Rubin saw popcorn being made in Oklahoma City on a visit around 1930 and started selling it at concessions he controlled when he returned to New York. But Mr. Rubin's daughter and another longtime business colleague, Carl Levine, said it was not until the early 1950's that Mr. Rubin began to sell popcorn in a major way. At the time, his company, ABC Consolidated, now part of the Ogden Corporation, had the refreshments concession for major movie chains in the New York metropolitan area, including RKO, Brandt and Loews. Andrew F. Smith, the author of "Popped Culture: The Social History of Popcorn in America," said New York theaters were among the last to embrace popcorn, because it had a small profit margin, popping machines were a fire hazard and the snack seemed a bit d?class?. Charles Cretors, the president of C. Cretors & Company, which has made popping machines since 1885, agreed that New York was late to the popping game and suggested that part of the reason may have been that early popping oils contained lard, which is not kosher. Mr. Smith said that popcorn was being sold in some New York theaters by the 1940's and that if Mr. Rubin began selling it in earnest in the early 1950's, he "was certainly not the first." But Mr. Rubin was very likely the first to pop corn in machines on a widespread basis in theaters. He had begun by popping the kernels in Long Island City and trucking the result to theaters, but quickly realized that the smell of popping corn would not exactly hurt sales. Improvements in machines had lessened the fire danger. A spokeswoman for the Popcorn Board in Chicago confirmed that ABC was a very large buyer of popcorn in the 1950's. (...) The TIMES receives the evidence, then ignores it? Mr. Rubin was very likely NOT the first to pop corn in machines on a widespread basis in theaters. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Leeside LEE SHIPPEY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 24, 1945. p. A4 (1 page): Ray A. Collins has a peeve against those movie theaters in which popcorn and candy bars are vended. Farmers Market... With Fred Beck Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 6, 1946. p. 2 (1 page): Of course it is almost impossible to get tickets to anything--and too much popcorn eating goes on at the movies. STANDING ROOM ONLY Groucho Marx. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 17, 1946. p. C14 (2 pages) Pg. 16: MANY people are living in the balconies of movie theaters. The loges are ideal for sleeping and so are most of the pictures. In the lobby, you can purchase popcorn, Sen-Sen, chocolate bars and peanuts. The Lighter Side HENRY McLEMORE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 20, 1946. p. 12 (1 page): I have friends who speak just as knowingly of the popcorn at the Empire, the candy at the Cameo, and the chocolate cracwers (?--ed.) at the Bijou as world travelers used to discuss the pheasant at Hoercher's in Berlin, the venison at Lippert's in Prague, and the steak and kidney pie at the Colony in New York. Popcorn and the Movies JOHN H NASH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 23, 1946. p. A4 (1 page): Popcorn is an American institution. So are the movies. The combination of both is the latest in public entertainment. Quite a few theaters feature in their lounge the sale of fresh popcorn. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 03:58:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:58:58 -0500 Subject: Gigi Salad Message-ID: GIGI SALAD--160 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits This is not in the LOS ANGELES TIMES so far. There's a recent book on the Palm Restaurant that mentions the salad's West Coast origin. Gigi is no Caesar, but who is? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where Steak and Lobster Reign By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 24, 1986. p. LI25 (1 page): At the Hedges Inn it might be a good idea to avoid dishes named after people--they are uniformly insulting. And that also goes for Gigi's salad, a melange of chopped ingredients that included dreadful tomatoes, and the greasy steak a la Stone with peppers and onions. THE PALM RESTAURANT COOKBOOK: RECIPES AND STORIES FROM THE CLASSIC AMERICAN STEAKHOUSE by Brigit Legere Binns Philadelphia: Running Press 2003 Pg. 51: Gigi Salad Never has a simple dish stirred so much controversy. Rumors are rife, and only the true Palmerati know the difference between a "regular Gigi" and a "West (Pg. 52--ed.) Coast Gigi." Named for the late, great maestro himself (Gigi Delmaestro, West Hollywood Palm general manager for twenty-seven years), this salad is ordered more than any other single dish at the Palm. True Palm regulars never order "Gigi salad." Just ask for a "Gigi." (GOOGLE) http://www.nbc10.com/recipes/2676420/detail.html Gigi Salad Never has a simple dish stirred so much controversy. Rumors are rife, and only the true Palmerati know the difference between a "regular Gigi" and a "West Coast Gigi." Named for the late, great maestro himself (Gigi Delmaestro, West Hollywood Palm general manager for twenty-seven years), this salad is ordered more than any other single dish at the Palm. True Palm regulars never order "Gigi salad." Just ask for a "Gigi." - 1 pound green beans, ends trimmed - 1 pound ripe beefsteak tomatoes, cored and roughly chopped into 1/2-inch chunks, including seeds and juice - 1 medium onion, cut into 1/2-inch dice - 3/4 cup Basic Vinaigrette - 1/4 pound bacon, cooked until crisp, then drained - 6 jumbo (U-12) shrimp or 12 medium shrimp, cooked, peeled, and cut into 1/2-inch lengths In a saucepan of rapidly boiling salted water, cook the green beans for 4 minutes. Drain immediately, and rinse under abundant cold water until the beans stop steaming. Shake to remove excess water; then spread on a double thickness of paper towels to dry briefly. Cut into 1 1/2-inch lengths. In a large bowl, combine the beans, tomatoes, onion, and 1/2 cup vinaigrette. Toss until evenly coated, adding the remaining vinaigrette only if necessary. Mound on chilled salad plates. Crumble an equal amount of the bacon over each salad, and scatter with a few pieces of the shrimp. Serve at once. Variation for the West Coast Gigi: Garnish each salad with a hard-boiled egg, peeled and cut into wedges, and 1/2 Hass avocado, peeled and sliced. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 15 04:08:36 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:08:36 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402130720.i1D7KYBj031785@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan regardless of what it's made of? Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Indigo Som >Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I >say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Feb 15 06:05:47 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:05:47 -0600 Subject: fying pan, fry pan, skillet..... In-Reply-To: <20040215033043.69EAA5CA5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Since Methodists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, I don't get the > ethnic link. It lowers the odds that they're German, Scandinavian, Irish, or Eastern European. What more likely matters is the regional origin of the > members of this particular congregation. I suspect they're one or two > generations out of the South and South Midland, if DARE and our list > contributors are on track. My guess would be three or four generations out of North Midland, or longer ago from New England or Upstate New York. BTW, I remember this area in Minneapolis, and > this church may be largely black. Is that the link you're driving at? Hennepin Avenue United Methodist is mostly white, I believe. By the way, this area has been changing; moving upscale. >>Today, at Steeple People Thrift Store (Lyndale Avenue South and Franklin >>Avenue, Minneapolis), I looked to see what they labelled these things as. >> >>"Fry pan" one. >> >>"Skillet" three, in two different handwritings. >> >>Blank one. >> >>Steeple People is operated by a Methodist church, which provides a clue >>to the probable ethnic origins of the volunteers. I have no idea how >>much that matters. >> >> >>-- >>Dan Goodman >>Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or >>http://dsgood.blogspot.com >>Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > > > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 07:52:07 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 02:52:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of bagel (1916) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro found 1930. 2 Jan. 1916 _Fort Wayne(IN) Journal-Gazette_ the Sunday Magazine section, (no page), col. 2, a whole page of "The Immigrant in America" /The Story of A Yiddish Family Exodus/by Sholom Aleichem.(copyright 1915 by the Press Publishing Co.)/Authorized translation by Marion Weinstein. /OUR CROWD-- <> Does this still count, seeing as how it's a translation? (And, if it does, why doesn't "pizza" in the 1800's? count :) SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 08:56:27 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:56:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "pitchmen" (1918) Message-ID: OED and M-W have 1926. 14 July, 1918 _The Indianapolis Sunday Star_ 25/8 (classified ads) <> SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 09:15:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:15:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "pitch and putt course" 1930 Message-ID: OED has 1963 1 June, 1939 _Nevada State Journal(Reno)_ 5/4 <> SC From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:13:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:13:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gimmick"? In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I'm not sure what the usage means here, but this may be an antedating of the word "gimmick": gimmick (OED 1925, HDAS 1922) 1920 _Wash. Post_ 6 Oct. 12 (ProQuest) World Series Notes ... An overcoatless one [baseball fan without an overcoat] produced a capacious "medicine" bottle from his hip and drank ostentatiously. Instantly from every side came calls of "Frank," "ohn," "Charley," "Archibald" et al. "Gimmick" brought immediate recognition, but nothing from the prescription. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:16:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:16:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gimmick" In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: gimmick (OED 1926, HDAS 1922) 1921 _N.Y. Times_ 15 May 71 (ProQuest) Being a Possible Questionnaire for Submission to Applicants for the Position of Assistant Stage Doorman. ... What is the starflop? A startrap? A vampire trap? A gimmick? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 17:23:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:23:16 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Gimmick" In-Reply-To: <002201c3f398$9c615970$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: gimmick (OED 1926, HDAS 1922) 1911 _Sandusky_ (Ohio) _Star Journal_ 1 May 5 (Newspaperarchive.com) SEASON FOR AGENTS. 'Tis now the agent wanders forth To sell his fruitless trees, And patent things to mow the lawn, And dope for honey bees. He's got a gimick for the churn, A patent cellar door, An automatic cistern pump, A salve to heal a sore. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 15 17:54:32 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:54:32 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879 Message-ID: OED has 1887. M-W 1891. Newspaperarchive incorrectly attributes the following to the Butte(MT) Miner, but it is actually-- 5 April, 1879 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye 6/4 (Reprinted from the Boston Herald) Titled:Concord Reminiscences/About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson. <> A second, interesting cite is from 2 Nov. 1882 _Ft. Wayne(IN) Daily Gazette_ 4/5 (but reprinted from the Cincinnati Enquirer. Titled "A Man with a Bracelet" <> SC From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 15 19:04:32 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:04:32 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimless" In-Reply-To: <200402151754.i1FHsaE18783@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: victimless (OED 1965) 1938 _Frederick_ (Maryland) _Post_ 1 Aug. (Newspaperarchive.com) The three are involved in the victimless crime wave. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 15 21:04:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:04:28 -0500 Subject: Palm Beach Salad Message-ID: Greetings from the El Panama Hotel in Panama City, where the women are gorgeous and the weather is warm and the women are gorgeous. Also, the women are gorgeous. GIMMICK--Didn't I post that NY TIMES citation about a year ago? BAGEL--Under a different spelling, OED has "bagel" from Zangwill in 1892. PALM BEACH SALAD--Lots of American chains are here. The hotel menu didn't have much, but it does have a "Palm Beach Salad"--chicken, pineapple, celery, and almonds. There aren't too many Google hits for it. Gotta go...the women are gorgeous. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 15 22:12:36 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:12:36 -0600 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879--Note: (Yankee) Dood(le) Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0500 2/15/04, Sam Clements wrote: >5 April, 1879 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye 6/4 > >(Reprinted from the Boston Herald) > >Titled:Concord Reminiscences/About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson. > ><when a very small boy. He wore long curls, and the Concord boys >plagued him in the usual tough way of boys. They called him "Sissy" >and "Yankee Doodle," and finally they ridiculed the poor lad till he >petitioned for a barber to cut off his locks.>> Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot of work on this term). Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 15 22:49:55 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:49:55 -0500 Subject: antedating of "sissy" 1879--Note: (Yankee) Dood(le) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin >of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot >of work on this term). So it's "Yankee Doodle Dandy" in the song, > "Yankee Doodle" = "dandy", > "doodle" = "dandy", > "dude" = "dandy"? It seems believable. Is there decisive evidence? I don't remember seeing this derivation presented before. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 00:03:43 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:03:43 -0500 Subject: Panama Cookbooks Message-ID: A trip here in Panama City to the local supermarket didn't turn up anything new; certainly nothing that you wouldn't see in New York. The huge supermarket here is REY. Go to www.smrey.com. The Burger King and McDonald's restaurants are pretty much the same. One local hamburger stand sells a "tropic burger"..."Hot dogs" are sold all over here. I'll have to ask why they're called that. The internet is cheap here in Panama. Did I see this is 50 cents an hour? LA COCINA CLASICA DE PANAMA por Rosita Cordoba 160 pages, paperback November 2002 This appears to be self-published. It's just all recipes. Some drawings, but no photos. Let me know if anyone wants it at $5. (They use US currency here.) Espanol/English COCINA PANAMENA 2A EDICION CON RECETAS NUEVAS! 2ND EDITION WITH NEW RECIPES INCLUDED! Distribuidora Lewis, S. A. Printed in Spain 110 pages, hardcover no date (1984?, from ISBN--ed.) $20 Nice color photos. Again, just recipes and no history at all. RICE Pg. 14: Rice with raisins Pg. 15: Rice with shrimp Pg. 16: Rice with chicken Pg. 17: Congo peas and coconut rice Pg. 18: Rice with baby clams Pg. 19: Rice with squid Pg. 20: Rice with dried salt cod and Coconut BEVERAGES Pg. 22: Chicheme Pg. 23: Egg nog (cooked) Pg. 23: Egg nog (uncooked) Pg. 24: Barley rice drink Pg. 25: Pineapple and rice drink Pg. 26: Sprouted corn drink Pg. 27: "Loja" drink MEATS AND POULTRY Pg. 30: Beef in orange sauce Pg. 31: Meat balls in wine sauce Pg. 32: Roast pork Pg. 33: Liver with orange sauce Pg. 34: Dry meat Pg. 35: Pickled pork feet Pg. 36: Christmas pork roast Pg. 37: Chicken with coconut sauce Pg. 38: Tripe panamanian style Pg. 39: Shredded beef Pg. 40: Tongue in wine sauce Pg. 41: Meat with tomato sauce Pg. 42: Stuffed peppers SALADS Pg. 44: Russian or party salad Pg. 45: Avocado or shrimp salad Pg. 46: Yucca (Cassava) salad Pg. 47: Avocado mousse Pg. 48: Chokoe's pie Pg. 49: Ripe plantains pie Pg. 50: Yucca (Cassava) Cake Pg. 51: Stuffed tomato salad Pg. 52: Eggplant pie FLOUR Pg. 54: Egg bread Pg. 55: Panamanian tamalaes Pg. 57: Tamal cacerole Pg. 58: Garden fresh corn tamales Pg. 59: Fresh Corn patties (tortillas) Pg. 60: Bollos changos Pg. 61: Fried bread (hojaldras) Pg. 62: Filled yucca (Fritters) Pg. 63: "Otoe" fritters Pg. 64: "Name" fritters Pg. 65: Doughnuts, Panamanian style Pg. 66: Pasta and tuna salad SEAFOOD Pg. 68: Pickled fish Pg. 69: Roasted red snapper Pg. 70: Shrimp ceviche Pg. 71: Shrimp stew Pg. 72: Corvina ceviche Pg. 73: Corvina with cappers sauce Pg. 74: Cooked seafood in sauce Pg. 75: Rice and seafood stew Pg. 76: Fish with sweetcorn filling Pg. 77: Potato and prawn pie DESSERTS Pg. 80: Nance custard with coconut and fresh corn Pg. 81: Bread pudding Pg. 82: Sopa borraca Pg. 83: Sopa de gloria Pg. 84: Avocado and cheese cake Pg. 85: Cashew fruits marmelade Pg. 86: Tangerine souffle Pg. 87: Nance mousse Pg. 88: Mango mousse Pg. 89: Bienmesabe Pg. 90: Rice pudding with milk and cocoa Pg. 91: Coconut and papaya sweets Pg. 92: Suripico Pg. 93: Coconut squares Pg. 94: Otoe pudding Pg. 95: Plantain pudding Pg. 96: Pumpkin pudding Pg. 97: Palm fruit flan Pg. 98: "Sighs" Pg. 99: Sweetened plantain mounds Pg. 100: Alfajores Pg. 101: Sweetened pumpkin squash Pg. 102: Coconut cookies, panamanian style SOUPS Pg. 104: Chicken soup--stew Pg. 105: Panamanian broth Pg. 106: Beef foot soup Pg. 107: Gallo pinto Pg. 108: Plantain soup Pg. 109: Meatball soup Pg. 110: Seren From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 02:08:12 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:08:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 Message-ID: HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find it in ADS archives. The reason I wanted to find an earlier cite is to prove absolutely that the phrase didn't originate during the Scopes Trial(1925). Using newspaperarchive, 8 Feb. 1923 _Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram Page obscured, col. 3-4. Text under picture of Ms. Cheeseborough: <> SC From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 16 02:23:01 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:23:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f431$bb89c910$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 09:08:12PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote: > HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find it in ADS archives. It's in OED, sense 35. This is an antedating, thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Feb 16 02:40:17 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:40:17 -0600 Subject: "Dude" from (Yankee) Dood(le) Dandy--(was: antedating of "sissy" 1879) Message-ID: >At 5:49 PM -0500 2/15/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Note significantly "Dood" in "Yankee Doodle" here--i.e., the origin >>of the 19th century term "dude." (Barry Popik and I have done a lot >>of work on this term). > >So it's "Yankee Doodle Dandy" in the song, > "Yankee Doodle" = "dandy", > >"doodle" = "dandy", > "dude" = "dandy"? > >It seems believable. Is there decisive evidence? I don't remember seeing >this derivation presented before. > >-- Doug Wilson A May 1881 article in _Clothier and Furnisher_, vol. 13, no. 10, pp. 27-28 (spotted by Barry Popik; reprinted in _Comments on Etymology_, April 1997, pp. 2-3 and then Oct. 1998, pp. 1-2) is titled "Definition Of The Word Dude" and says: "...It is not exactly slang, but has not rooted itself in the language and has not, therefore, a precise and accepted meaning. The word pronounced in two syllables as if spelled 'doody' has been in occasional use in some New England towns for more than a score of years. It was probably born as a diminutive of dandy, and applied to the feeble personators of the real fop. ..." *** From the above passage it looks like "Yankee Doodle Dandy" produced a blend of "dood(le)" and "dandy" to "doody" in some New England towns prior to 1883, with shortening to "dude" (one syllable) by 1883. Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Mon Feb 16 03:42:40 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:42:40 -0500 Subject: Caesarean section--Julius Caesar was evidently not delivered this way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a Web review which looks reputable: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/cesarean_1.html It has some references. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 03:59:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:59:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "goody-goody" adj. 1867 Message-ID: M-W and OED have 1871. Using newspaperarchive: 23 Dec. 1867 _Edinburgh(Scotland) Evening Courant 6/1 (a book review) <> SC From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Feb 16 04:18:31 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight, MLIS) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:18:31 -0800 Subject: Antedating? of "monkey's uncle" 1923 In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f431$bb89c910$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: I don't think these count, but for what it's worth... The Times, Wednesday, Jan 27, 1847; pg. 5; Issue 19457; col E Lyceum Theatre. Category: Reviews ... The pompous language of the Indians is ludicrously burlesqued, and from the sagacious "Downy Beaver," acted with becoming gravity by Mr. Bender, to the jealous "Monkey's uncle," played with furious irritability by Mr. Oxberry ... The Times, Thursday, Jan 10, 1856; pg. 5; Issue 22260; col E The Song Of Hiawatha. Category: Arts and Entertainment !> (From Punch) ^^^^^^^^^^ ... With their Chief, the clean Efmatthews, With the growling Downy Beaver, With the valiant Monkey's Uncle, Came the gracious Mari-Kee-Lee, ... -jk At 06:08 PM 2/15/04, you wrote: >HDAS as 1926. M-W and OED don't list it(unless I missed) I couldn't find >it in ADS archives. > >The reason I wanted to find an earlier cite is to prove absolutely that >the phrase didn't originate during the Scopes Trial(1925). > >Using newspaperarchive, > >8 Feb. 1923 _Elyria(OH) Chronicle Telegram Page obscured, col. 3-4. Text >under picture of Ms. Cheeseborough: > ><from coquettish Edith Russell Cheseborough, Boston society girl--"Frame >it," she told her Harvard admirer, William L. Lawrence, referring to the >marriage license he had obtained. "The nuptial idea is a joke." she told >Lawrence. But Lawrence can't see it. "If that's a joke I'm a monkey's >uncle.">> > >SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 16 04:36:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:36:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "goombah" 1954 Message-ID: M-W and OED both use 1968 as they don't accept TV/movie cites, only printed ones(I suppose). Even though many of us watched Rocky Graziano on the Martha Raye(premiered Sept. 1955) show and heard the word. 2 Dec. 1954 _Coshocton(OH) Tribune_ 8/6 (newspaperarchive) [A story on Italian boxers] <<"I will beat this Giambra," he insists, "and prove Italy still produces fine fighters." It's hard to see how he can be proved wrong. Joey is a goombah, too!>> SC From pds at VISI.COM Mon Feb 16 05:52:18 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:52:18 -0600 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb In-Reply-To: <20040213055019.F00214CD7@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2/13/2004 12:50 AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >I believe the trademark was registered after 1990 (one can look up the >exact date at USPTO). Thanks for the suggestion. Chicago Hamburger Co. filed to register "Slyders", "Super Slyder", and "Sneezy Slyder" in 1983 but abandoned them a year later. White Castle filed to register "Slyders" in 1993. Google Groups has a post to net.general on 11/4/1982 in which the author maintains that "slider" is reserved for White Castle "hamburgers" [quotation marks in the original]. CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 3/26/1985: "A White Castle hamburger stand without the distinctive blue lettering on its tower? It's like a slider without onions." The TRIBUNE archives (1985 to present) give 65 hits for [slider AND "White Castle"], but only three hits for [slider AND hamburger AND NOT "White Castle"], and only three hits for [slyder]. However in most cases the relevant terms do not occur in the abstracts and I'm too cheap to buy the full articles. Finally, thanks to all who responded to my questions, and sorry about including "Gut--bomb" in the heading but not in the message. I had answered my own gut-bomb question by referring to RHDAS, but neglected to edit the heading. So unless you'd like to try antedating Lighter's 1969 cite, never mind. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 16 15:40:41 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:40:41 -0500 Subject: Surstromming; Afterparty (1977); Mocktail (1956); New York Herald In-Reply-To: <12a.3b7608e7.2d5f4798@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 14, 2004 at 04:42:48AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > --------------------------------------------- > AFTERPARTY > > AFTERPARTY--81,600 Google hits, 4,860 Google Groups hits > AFTER PARTY--151,000 Google hits, 9,890 Google Group hits > > I've been seeing "afterparty" a lot. What's an "afterparty"? Sleep? > Are there after-recipes for it? > WordSpy (added April 30, 2002) has "afterparty" from March 17, 1980 in the > WASHINGTON POST. Google Groups has it only from 1990. The OED entry, which should be appearing in the next batch or two, has a first quote of 1961. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 21:37:31 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: No Bagels at Panama Canal, Panama hat myth again Message-ID: NO BAGELS AT PANAMA CANAL Today was the day for Panama locks. But there were no bagels in the Canal Zone--none at all. Just locks. Go figure. --------------------------------------------------------------- PANAMA HAT MYTH AGAIN My local tour guide said that Teddy Roosevelt tried on a hat, and that was how the "Panama hat" (really from Ecuador) got its name. I had heard the same story in Ecuador. Maybe the OED online has to be cheaper? --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. Carnival starts this week...Panama`s 100th anniversary celebration was a month ago. RED DEVIL--The name of the local buses. They`re American school buses, now painted (usually) red. The drivers need lots of passengers to make money, so they drive like devils. NIKOS CAFE--Our lunch spot and a big cafeteria chain here, since 1955. See www.nikoscafe.com. MIDNIGHT CHOCOLATE--An ice cream dish served at Nikos. There are about 700 Google hits. I couldn't order "midnight chocolate" because our lunch stop was at noon. OREJA (EARS), CANONES (CANNONS), JOSEFINA, DIPLOMATICO--Some pastries served at Nikos. The cannons are loaded with guava jelly. Josphines were sold, but I didn't see Napoleons. POTABLE WATER--Everyone here mentions "portable water." RASPADO (SHAVED ICE)--The local name for a snow cone. It's served with concentrated milk on top. MOLA--I'll beat OED`s 1941 date when I return. TRES LECHES--I had a fabulous one yesterday. Unfortunately, I don't know when I'll have national library time to check local cookbooks. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 21:57:22 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:57:22 -0500 Subject: monkey's uncle; Toothpast back into the tube (1940, 1951) Message-ID: MONKEY`S UNCLE That`s also in MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN: Author: Parton, James, 1822-1891. Title: The humorous poetry of the English language : from Chaucer to Saxe ... with notes, explanatory and biographical. Publication date: 1856. Collection: Making of America Books Page 502 - 1 term matching "monkey s uncle" With the growling Downy Beaver, With the valiant Monkey`s Uncle,... --------------------------------------------------------------- TOOTHPASTE BACK INTO THE TUBE I was brushing my teeth and thinking about world culture when I thought of this one. OED has 1975? The 1951 hit comes up in several newspapers, as does the 1940 hit. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ironwood Daily Globe - 5/11/1951 ...would be like trying to push TOOTHPASTE BACK into a TUBE." HP said the government is.....today that "trying to push all prices BACK to pro-Korea days.....that if the government were to push prices BACK to where they were a year ago it would.....patrols. But there was continual movement BACK of Communist lines. The reds were.. Ironwood, Michigan Friday, May 11, 1951 884 k Bridgeport Telegram - 5/11/1951 ...a would be like trying, to -push TOOTHPASTE BACK into a TUBE. 1 He said the government is.....told Congress today that to push all prices BACK to pro-Korea dr.....that1 if the government were to push prices BACK to where they were a year ago it would.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, May 11, 1951 749 k Bridgeport Telegram - 5/11/1951 ...a wciuld.be like trying to push TOOTHPASTE BACK Into a TUBE. Ha said tho government IH.....patrols. But there was continual movement BACK of communist lines. The Reds were.....minefields. Automatic weapon fire turned BACK small Allied patrols probing too close.....MunMim and Uljongbu. Communist t'lre forced BACK a South Korean patrol on tho extreme.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, May 11, 1951 775 k Sheboygan Press - 3/5/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? The modern world.....you should send for this 'edition. This book contains 254 pages printed on thin Bible.....that are named in the Bible the longest book and shortest verse, and many, other.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, March 05, 1940 763 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 3/6/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? Man Do you know your.....what I mean, It was a vague picture in the BACK of Ann's mind, this pleasant living, an.. Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, March 06, 1940 698 k Sheboygan Press - 3/5/1940 ...you ever tried squeezing the TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE again? The modern world.....you should send for this 'edition. This book contains 254 pages printed on thin Bible.....that are named in the Bible the longest book and shortest verse, and many, other.. Coshocton Tribune - 11/17/1954 ...they'll be tougher than putting TOOTHPASTE BACK in a TUBE. But Ohio State a better.....themselves. Yale over Harvard Bouocing BACK itrong. Also: Columbia over Rutgen.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, November 17, 1954 612 k Dixon Telegraph - 3/1/1949 ...is tougher than putting TOOTHPASTE BACK in the TUBE. A group of South Africans.....detail, stripingly slim skirt with inverted BACK pleat for stride Black. Brown. Green. te.. Dixon, Illinois Tuesday, March 01, 1949 638 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 16 22:42:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:42:29 -0500 Subject: Spanish slang site (listed by country); National Library Message-ID: PANAMA SLANG http://www.jergasdehablahispana.org/panama.htm This web site has Spanish slang, listed by country. Is it any good? The above is for Panama. If anyone wants me to check on these (with Panama and the United States, you never know what could fall into English), let me know soon. Any food terms on the site that I should be aware of? --------------------------------------------------------------- NATIONAL LIBRARY The National Library is the Biblioteca Nacional Ernesto J. Castillero. From a quick cookbook check for the earliest ones (arethese in the states?): Panam?. Direcci?n General de Cultura y Bibliotecas Hands across the cooking pot / Direcci?n General de Cultura y Bibliotecas. -- Panam? : Imprenta Nacional, 1952 250 p. : il. Cocina Panam?-autores 641.5P187 Panam?. Ministerio de Educaci?n. Escuela Profesional Ma?z, platano y arroz / Escuela Profesional. -- Panam? : Imprenta Nacional, 1946 77 p. ; 16 cm. Recetarios Cocina paname?a Panam?-autores Binal 641.5 P191 Gonz?lez de Espener, Manonguita Cocina chiricana / Manonguita G. de Espener p.18 . Tierra y dos mares. -- A?o 3, no.14 (1963). -- Panam? :. -- Litho-Impresora Panam? Econom?a dom?stica Gastronom?a Cocina chiricana Cocina paname?a Panam?-autores Moncayo de Pazmi?o, Amparo Tamales / Amparo de Pazmi?o p.32 Tierra y dos mares. -- A?o 5, no.25 (1965). -- Panam? :. -- Litho-Impresora Panam? Tamales Cocina paname?a Panam?-autores From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 01:57:45 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:57:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Gangster" In-Reply-To: <7E1046BB.18A58989.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: gangster (OED 1896) 1888 _Portsmouth_ (Ohio) _Times_ 11 Aug. 2/2 (Newspaperarchive.com) THE story that the TIMES man is delinquent for water rent is too improbable even for a gangster to believe. We have paid our water rent in advance. To falsely report citizens delinquent will not help the gang. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 02:20:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:20:03 -0500 Subject: Hojaldres; Sopa Borracha; Chinese Pizza Message-ID: HOJALDRA HOJALDRES--3,520 Google hits, 156 Google Group hits My restuarant had this name as the Spanish and English description of the dish. Not in the OED, of course. From the free FOCUS PANAMA, vol. 29, no. 2, August 2003, pg. 69 description of my restaurant tonight: _EL TRAPICHE_--On Via Argentina, specializes in Panamanian cooking in the style of the Central Provinces. The decor motif is a "trapiche", the Panamanian name for an old-world sugar mill, still used in some country areas to squeeze the juice of guarapo from sugar cane. This restaurant is poular and is highly recommended for visitors interested in getting to know the (Pg. 71--ed.) country. Specialities you might like to try are: sandwiches en _hojaldra_ (flour fritters with meat or chicken fillings), _mondongo_ (seasoned tripe), _gallo pinto_ (rice and bean casserole). (GOOGLE)(Another cite for the above--ed.) http://www.travel-to-panama.com/Travel-to-Panama/art-Panama%20restaurants.htm EL TRAPICHE? On Via Argentina, specializes in Panamanian cooking in the style of the Central Provinces. The decor motif is a ?trapiche?, the Panamanian name for an old-world sugar mill, still used in some country areas to squeeze the juice or guarapo from sugar cane. This restaurant is popular and is highly recommended for visitors interested in getting to know the country. Specialities you might like to try are; sandwiches en hojaldra (flour fritters with meat or chicken fillings), mondongo (seasoned tripe), gallo pinto (rice and bean casserole). (GOOGLE)(Excellent sites--ed.) http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/9512/hojaldres.html http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/9512/e_hojaldres.html http://www.patrimonio-gastronomico.com/panreposteria_c.shtml?idboletin=129&idseccion=416 --------------------------------------------------------------- SOPA BORRACHA SOPA BORRACHA--331 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits Intoxicated soup? Another typical Panamanian dish. Not in the OED. (GOOGLE) http://www.travel-to-panama.com/Travel-to-Panama/art-Panama%20restaurants.htm LAS TINAJAS? A piece of the countryside translated to the city . . . an oasis of flavor and folklore downtown, where you can buy and enjoy handicraft from all over Panama. This is a restaurant offering creole food in comfortable and elegant surroundings. Carima?olas, frituras, tamales, sopa borracha (translation: intoxicated soup) and many more are available at very reasonable prices. International food is also featured. Shows with typical dance groups are presented Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Closed Sundays. (GOOGLE)(An excellent site--ed.) http://www.arecetas.com/panama/ (GOOGLE GROUPS) Al and Ad's Wedding Summary--What Worked--I ... party. Everyone had a wonderful time--and enjoyed the traditional Panamanian wedding dessert (sopa borracha--cake SOAKED in rum). ... soc.couples.wedding - 6 Oct 1996 por AlandAd - Ver la conversaci?n (1 art?culo) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHINESE PIZZA There`s a Chinatown here and Chinese have been arriving in large numbers to Panama City. The Restaurante Fu Yuan offers this: Galleta con Cebollina Chinese Pizza From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 02:37:55 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:37:55 -0500 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <00a001c3f379$62eac010$3bae8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan regardless of >what it's made of? > >Benjamin Barrett If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. (I have some in each category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not for the others. Larry > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Indigo Som > >>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I >>say "cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 03:42:31 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:42:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Situation Comedy" In-Reply-To: <200402170157.i1H1voE19717@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: situation comedy (OED 1953) 1921 _Atlanta Constitution_ 5 June 39 (Newspaperarchive.com) Don't waste your time writing slap stick farce. That type of comedy is easy to write, but difficult to sell. ... Rather try to write a situation comedy of a refined type. 1925 _Oshkosh_ (Wisconsin) _Daily Northwestern_ 11 Apr. 11 (Newspaperarchive.com) Depending as it does on putting over farcical situation comedy rather than broad gags and "hokum," the picture has called for an excellent cast to play the various roles in a skilful manner. 1931 _Key West Citizen_ 3 Sept. 4 "Situation comedy is the only dependable form of screen humor," says Douglas MacLean, associate producer of Radio Pictures' comedy, "Too Many Cooks." 1936 _Bismarck Tribune_ 28 Nov. 2 (Newspaperarchive.com) The show will feature situation comedy, with a thin thread of a plot being carried forward from week to week. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 03:47:16 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:47:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Situation Comedy" In-Reply-To: <200402170157.i1H1voE19717@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: situation comedy (OED 1953) 1912 _L.A. Times_ 8 Apr. II5 (ProQuest) His scene in the closing act, at the lunch counter, is genuinely funny. It contains situation comedy, and with the assistance of Charles Dudley and Madison Smith, Mr. Cawthorne gets it over in big fashion. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 04:22:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:22:10 -0500 Subject: nana In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040214122926.00afae68@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0500 2/14/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Maybe that's where it originated (I have no idea), but the few people I >know who've used it have no Italian ancestry, so they picked it up >somewhere. I'm under the impression that it caught on because it avoids >the "ageism" associated with "grandma." > > >At 08:43 AM 2/14/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>I have always assumed that the "nana" = grandmother speakers were >>simply using a phonetically altered form of Italian "nonna." If this >>is not the obvious etymology, I'm quite happy to give it up. >> >>dInIs >> Is there a connection between "nonna" and "nanny"? That has been the standard label (and name) for a maternal grandmother in at least one Jewish (and non-Italian) family for generations. Note that the aforementioned "Nana" in Peter Pan was actually a nanny (as well as a sheepdog), but not a grandmother. The AHD offers two meanings for "nana", 'grandmother' and 'nanny', and attributes it to "baby-talk origin", without mentioning Ital. "nonna". larry From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 04:54:11 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:54:11 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402170237.i1H2boAt017026@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: That makes a lot more sense and is probably what Indigo Som meant. I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > >At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan >>regardless of what it's made of? >> >>Benjamin Barrett > >If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls >something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless >what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron >skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of >silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. >(I have some in each >category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm >from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not >for the others. > >Larry > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >>>Behalf Of Indigo Som >> >>>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say >>>"cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 06:39:46 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:39:46 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to wonder if sugar can be. Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? Benjamin Barrett From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 08:14:50 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan In-Reply-To: <200402162054.1aSXfy3LV3NZFmQ1@tanager> Message-ID: >I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic >range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used >cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. I'd use cast iron pan for a frying pan made of cast iron. If the cooking utensil were deeper (and still cast iron), I'd say cast iron pot. Rima From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 08:14:50 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:14:50 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402162239.1aSYTJ6zz3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: >...Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? I know lots of folk who say black coffee to mean only no milk (or other creamer thing). It had nothing to do with whether or not it was then sweetened. Rima From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 17 11:28:52 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:28:52 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. Bethany From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 17 14:55:04 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:55:04 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife (a native) ate them in her childhood. There's also a number of variations on the "White" theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I think is in Hackensack. There's also a White X System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. Any similar joints in NY? Ed --- Dave Wilton wrote: > There's a White Castle in Toms River on Route 37, > near the Hooper Ave > intersection. Those who go to the beach in Seaside > or Island Beach State > Park pass it on their way from the Parkway. It's > relatively new (the last > decade or so). As I said earlier, Toms River was > devoid of White Castle > until after I grew up and left town. > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > > Of James A. Landau > > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:30 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo > > > > > > In a message dated Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:20:53 > -0500, "Kathleen E. Miller" > > writes: > > > > > There is a White Castle on the Black Horse Pike > going down the > > shore in NJ. > > > Having grown-up in Indiana it was a new > experience for me in the early > > > 80's. Dad, however, had recollection of the > place going back to the > > > mid-40's when he would go down the shore with > Pop-Pop and Nana. > > > > There used to be a White Castle on the corner of > the Black Horse Pike and > > Noah's Road in Pleasantville, but it closed down > maybe ten years > > ago and was > > replaced by a Goodyear store. Currently there is > NO White Castle > > on the Black > > Horse Pike east of Sicklerville (where the BHP > meets the > > Expressway), nor on US > > 40 nor on US 322 anywhere in New Jersey. The only > White Castle > > in New Jersey > > that I know of is on NJ 27 between New Brunswick > and Princeton. > > > > What the White Horse Pike is noted for is go-go > danceries, > > including the one > > whose marquee reads > > SEXY SENSUOUS GIRLS > > now serving lunch > > > > If in the 1950's a White Castle hamburger was a > "slider", did the > > term derive > > from the baseball pitch (which did not become > common in the major leagures > > until circa 1950)? > > > > For what it's worth, I have no recollection of > coming across the name > > "Pop-Pop" until after I moved to New Jersey in > 1986. > > > > For the benefit of those not familiar with South > Jersey, there > > are two roads > > running from Camden to Atlantic City. The White > Horse Pike (US > > 30) runs from > > the Ben Franklin Bridge to the "Inlet" (northern) > section of > > Atlantic City. > > The Black Horse Pike runs from the Walt Whitman > Bridge to the "Downbeach" > > (southern) section of Atlantic City, and various > portions of it > > are numbered as US > > 40, US 322, NJ 42, and NJ 168. I am told that the > name "White Horse Pike" > > came first and is from the name of a tavern on the > road. > > > > - Jim Landau > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:04:54 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:04:54 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett said: >The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to >wonder if sugar can be. > >Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no sugar". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:06:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:06:19 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > >I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that >one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, >it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for >cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want >it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) > >I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. > Right. As a native black-with-sugar coffee drinker, I always request coffee black in restaurants (where there are facilities for adding sugar) and "black with sugar" on airplanes or if I'm a guest at someone's house. Clearly, if I just say "black" in the latter circumstances, I'll then have to track down the sugar later to feed my filthy habit. (Of course in NY I could ask for "regular", but then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The thing with sugar is that it really matters how much is added, unlike (in my vicarious experience) cream/milk. Larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 17 15:22:31 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:22:31 -0600 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: Has no one except myself ever heard the phrase "black coffee with sugar" ever used as a come on line to a pretty waitress? It is similar to and as effective as the old trick of leering at the waitress or saying, "you" after she asked the customer what they would like. Then when she said, "I mean that is on the menu." you would slip the menu under her feet. I don't think that you people have hung around truck stops or bars enough because you don't appear to have ever thought about this phrase except literally. You should hang out with members of the working class more often instead :-) of spending so much time with academics in coffee houses. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:06 AM Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? > > > >I have never used sugar in coffee, but I assume black means only that > >one does not want cream. I know that around here at places like Starbucks, > >it makes a difference in how full they fill the cup - they leave room for > >cream if you are going to add it. Or some places add cream if you want > >it. (I always drink it black, no sugar.) > > > >I think whether one adds sugar is an entirely different matter. > > > Right. As a native black-with-sugar coffee drinker, I always request > coffee black in restaurants (where there are facilities for adding > sugar) and "black with sugar" on airplanes or if I'm a guest at > someone's house. Clearly, if I just say "black" in the latter > circumstances, I'll then have to track down the sugar later to feed > my filthy habit. (Of course in NY I could ask for "regular", but > then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The thing with sugar is that > it really matters how much is added, unlike (in my vicarious > experience) cream/milk. > > Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:26:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:26:38 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0500 2/17/04, Alice Faber wrote: >Benjamin Barrett said: >>The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >>saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >>online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving me to >>wonder if sugar can be. >> >>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? >> > >Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), >but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no >sugar". >-- I should add that it really does depend on the context. If someone calls and asks me to answer a survey question on how I drink my coffee, I'd have to say "black with sugar", since "black" in that context would implicate no sugar. But if the Starbucks guy asks whether I want my coffee black, I'd just say yes. In fact, as I was just reminded (I was in Seattle this weekend, where they presumably are experts on this), what you get asked is whether they should leave room for cream. Complicated, these isocafs. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 17 15:30:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:30:39 -0500 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: <20040217145504.11727.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. >Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife (a >native) ate them in her childhood. > >There's also a number of variations on the "White" >theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I >think is in Hackensack. originating as "White Manor"? >There's also a White X >System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. > >Any similar joints in NY? > I think so, although I can't remember the names. There was a pretty good movie a while back called "White Palace", with Susan Sarandon (who was a waitress in an eponymous hamburger joint) and James Spader, but I'm assuming the scriptwriter invented the chain for the occasion. larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Feb 17 16:07:38 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:07:38 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar Message-ID: Do people in Chicago still ask for coffee "regular" (meaning no milk or sugar)? If so, how do they ask for black with sugar? Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Black Coffee with Sugar >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 10:04 AM -0500 2/17/04, Alice Faber wrote: >>Benjamin Barrett said: >>>The editors of the dictionary I'm working on have a dictionary citation >>>saying that black coffee can have sugar in it. I disagree, but several >>>online definitions I found say only that whitener isn't used, leaving >me to >>>wonder if sugar can be. >>> >>>Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? >>> >> >>Well, I don't normally put sugar in brewed coffee (just in espresso), >>but it doesn't sound at all odd for me to order "black coffee, no >>sugar". >>-- > >I should add that it really does depend on the context. If someone >calls and asks me to answer a survey question on how I drink my >coffee, I'd have to say "black with sugar", since "black" in that >context would implicate no sugar. But if the Starbucks guy asks >whether I want my coffee black, I'd just say yes. In fact, as I was >just reminded (I was in Seattle this weekend, where they presumably >are experts on this), what you get asked is whether they should leave >room for cream. Complicated, these isocafs. > >larry > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 17 16:15:27 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:27 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <011a01c3f569$de178380$4128bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Page Stephens wrote: >You should hang out with members of the working class more often instead :-) >of spending so much time with academics in coffee houses. I think in the days I did that, there was always a pitcher of cream and a container of sugar on the table. And I do not recall ever trying to pick up a waitress - but I could have forgotten ... My coffees today are almost always to go ... and there are no . Bethany From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:02:46 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:02:46 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to be in a minority here. I drink coffee with sugar only and would never describe it as "black." I've always thought of "black" as indicating nothing but the coffee. Lots of people drink it this way, including most people I ever seem to have as guests in my home. When I ask them how they want their coffee and they say, "black," I bring them straight coffee (adding my own sugar out in the kitchen, since I'm the only one who wants it), and I've never had anyone ask for sugar. When asked how I like my coffee, I always say, "just sugar." If I'm having coffee in a restaurant and the sugar is already on the table, I COULD order it "black" and end up with my preferred drink by adding the sugar, but I wouldn't consider that the result still qualified as "black," and it would never occur to me to order it that way anywhere but in NYC, where I learned the hard way that it's the only way to prevent them from dumping in milk or cream. (Scene at a NYC lunch counter during a dairy transport strike many years ago which resulted in shortages of milk and even more so, cream: Me (to waitress bringing coffee): I don't want milk. Waitress: That's all we have, sir. Me: But I don't want any! Waitress: THAT'S ALL WE HAVE, SIR (dumps cream in coffee). Me (belatedly hitting upon the magic word): BLACK! BLACK! I WANT IT BLACK!) Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 17 16:58:33 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:58:33 -0600 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to stolen money. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 17:17:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:17:27 -0500 Subject: Wo Tips, Peeling Indian, Nance Message-ID: A few items between birding. WO TIPS--Seen at this "Don Lee" chain restaurant: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.donleestore.com/pd_wo.cfm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522wo%2Btips%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8 PEELING INDIAN--Usually called the "tourist tree" of the peeling bark, like a sunburnt tourist. The tour guide used this name for it here. NANCE-- http://www.angelfire.com/tx/CZAngelsSpace/beverages.html Two species of nance are common in Panama, nance colorado and nance blanco. Both grow profusely in acid soil. The bark of the nance colorado is used by campesinos to treat fish nets against mildew and fungus. It also is used for medicinal purposes such as the treatment of ?athlete?s foot? and other skin fungus diseases. Wood of the nance trees is highly in demand for firewood as it burns leaving a fine white ash. Nance is harvested by shaking the tree. Come October you can buy a bottle of those ?yellow things? on your way to the Interior and make Chicha de Nance this way: Mash the contents of 1 bottle of nance. Add about a quart of water. Add sugar to taste and serve very cold or over ice. It is a great thirst quencher. ("Nance" is very important here. I did a quick check of the revised OED and didn't see it. PLEASE tell me that I missed it. OED can't possibly be THAT bad!--ed.) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:58:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:58:12 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Montgomery could answer this best. But my father (b. 1900) was taught by an old-fashioned New England schoolmarm to say "give it me"--and no amount of arguing from this smart alecky high schooler would convince him that it was "wrong." So maybe this was standard in British-derived English? BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. At 10:58 AM 2/17/2004 -0600, you wrote: > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether >"Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the >preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; >variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The >etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps >this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to >stolen money. > >Gerald Cohen From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:09:44 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:09:44 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: Beverly, Reminds me of another written 'r' in an r-less dialect, "Eeyore" A.A. Milne's Pooh stories. Most American readers and the children they're reading to completely miss the intentionally imitative quality of the name and it ends up just sounding like a strange made-up name. My undergrads are frequently surprised when they hear about this. Herb BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:46:22 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:46:22 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To reach a lot of people familiar with Scots, you might try posting your query to Lowlands-L, an e-mail discussion group devoted to Germanic languages that originated in the lowlands areas of Europe. (Scots is included not because of the Scottish lowlands, but because its history is traceable to immigrants from lowlands areas of Europe.) Go to: Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:58 AM -0600 Gerald Cohen wrote: > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether > "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the > preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; > variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The > etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps > this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to > stolen money. > > Gerald Cohen ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 17 18:57:18 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:57:18 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes! I read the donkey's name with an 'r' to my son, long before I got into linguistics, obviously! And remember Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (in whatever poem)? I wonder if the double 'r' was meant to push the vowel farther front (to print /a/ in IPA) to reflect the New England vowel? But do you think present-day New England schoolteachers understand this when they ask their kids to read this stuff? British teachers wouldn't have a problem with Eeyore and (hopefully) Marmie, but what would they make of a double 'r'? (Hopefully they wouldn't teach Whittier....) At 01:09 PM 2/17/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Beverly, > >Reminds me of another written 'r' in an r-less dialect, "Eeyore" A.A. >Milne's Pooh stories. Most American readers and the children they're >reading to completely miss the intentionally imitative quality of the name >and it ends up just sounding like a strange made-up name. My undergrads >are frequently surprised when they hear about this. > >Herb > >BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double >'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie >of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused >generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Feb 17 19:04:09 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:04:09 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077008566@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2004, at 12:02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > I seem to be in a minority here. I drink coffee with sugar only and > would > never describe it as "black." I've always thought of "black" as > indicating > nothing but the coffee. Lots of people drink it this way, including > most > people I ever seem to have as guests in my home. For me, black coffee is the same thing, with or without sugar. Non-black coffee has milk. Sugar doesn't change the color. So "black with sugar" is entirely normal. It's still black after the sugar. New York City is a great testing lab for this, given the varied roots of its citizens, the large sample sizes possible, and the preference for stimulants. I tend to drink my coffee black with sugar, when I drink it, and it wasn't long after I arrived here eleven years ago that I noticed discrepancies in what constitutes a "regular" coffee and what constitutes a "black" coffee. This is in diners and restaurants, and from the bagel-and-donut vendors. I've been keeping mental note of the differences. A regular coffee is any of these, in rough order of frequency: --caffeinated coffee with whitener and two sugars --caffeinated coffee with whitener and one sugar --caffeinated coffee with whitener --nothing but caffeinated coffee A black coffee is, in rough order of frequency: --nothing but caffeinated coffee --caffeinated coffee with sugar --caffeinated coffee with room at the top so you can add your own whitener The fun part is where the "black" and "regular" coffees overlap. Grant From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 17 19:50:06 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:50:06 -0800 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402171607.i1HG7iAt025009@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for their kind and interesting replies. I made an addendum to the black coffee entry. What I thought most interesting was the discrepancy between regular coffee in Chicago and New York, though Grant Barrett's post indicates the situation is far from straightforward. In Seattle, a regular coffee means drip. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 8:08 AM > >Do people in Chicago still ask for coffee "regular" (meaning >no milk or sugar)? If so, how do they ask for black with sugar? > >Regards, >David Barnhart >barnhart at highlands.com >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 7:06 AM > (Of course in NY I could ask >for "regular", but then I'll get cream as well as sugar.) The >thing with sugar is that it really matters how much is added, >unlike (in my vicarious >experience) cream/milk. > >Larry >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 11:04 AM > >A regular coffee is any of these, in rough order of frequency: >--caffeinated coffee with whitener and two sugars >--caffeinated coffee with whitener and one sugar --caffeinated >coffee with whitener --nothing but caffeinated coffee > >A black coffee is, in rough order of frequency: >--nothing but caffeinated coffee >--caffeinated coffee with sugar >--caffeinated coffee with room at the top so you can add your >own whitener > >The fun part is where the "black" and "regular" coffees overlap. > >Grant > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 17 23:45:50 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:45:50 -0500 Subject: Movieoke; Dry Canal; Okey Dokey Smokey; Naked Indian; Beer Belly Tree Message-ID: MOVIEOKE This was featured on CNN. How can I get free publicity on CNN, too? (GOOGLE) http://entertainment.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4459,8556658%255E7485%255E%255Enbv,00.html Movieoke has arrived By Sarah Baxter in New York February 02, 2004 THE opportunity to mouth "You talkin' to me?" from Taxi Driver and "Go ahead, punk, make my day" from Dirty Harry has long been irresistible. The surprise is that movieoke, a twist on the karaoke sing-along craze, has only just arrived. In an arty dive called the Den of Cin in New York's East Village, there is a stage in front of a flickering screen. Anastasia Fite, 24, the master of ceremonies, will both serve you a beer and help you act out your film fantasies. The club is fast becoming one of New York's hottest venues. "As far as I know, I invented movieoke," she said. "I made a movie about three years ago about a girl who can only speak in movie lines. When I found myself running this space I decided to turn it into a social opportunity." --------------------------------------------------------------- DRY CANAL My tour guide mentioned a proposed "dry canal." There are 1,570 Google hits. Please, no "wet canal" retronym. (GOOGLE) http://www.speakeasy.org/~peterc/nicaragua/drycanal/drycanal.htm Nicaragua, October 1996 "Dry canal" across Nicaragua breathes new life into old dream By Peter Costantini MANAGUA ? Half-buried in the sand of an isolated, palm-fringed Caribbean beach, a few old railroad wheels lie rusting. They were left at Monkey Point in 1903, local people say, by some Germans who started building a railroad across Nicaragua. They never got far, though. The project foundered, and in 1910 the U. S. Marines landed to put an end to Nicaragua's commercial flirtations with Europe and Japan. This summer, nearly a century later, U.S. engineering firm Parsons Brinckerhoff began a $20 million feasibility study of a "dry canal" or "land bridge" across Nicaragua. The $1.4 billion project, scheduled to break ground next year, will construct deep-water container ports and free-trade zones on the Caribbean and Pacific and connect them with a 210-mile high-speed railroad. The Caribbean terminus will be located at Monkey Point. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- OKEY DOKEY SMOKEY TWO different local tour guides here in Panama have independently used "okey dokey smokey." Maybe they`re smoking something here in Panama? --------------------------------------------------------------- NAKED INDIAN One of the "okey dokey smokey" guides told me that it`s "naked indian" tree with him, not "peeling indian" or "tourist tree." A search for "naked indian" on google turns up--uh, never mind. A search for "naked indian tree" turns up: (GOOGLE) Comparative Distribution of the Naked Indian Tree, Bursera ... - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] Please Click here to return to main page. Comparative Distribution of the Naked Indian Tree, Bursera simaruba,. in Primary Highland ... www.woodrow.org/teachers/esi/2000/cr2000/ Group_1/Research_Project/NakedIndian.htm - 33k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Ceiba - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] Naked Indian or Tourist Tree / Bursera simaruba. This species has a wide distribution in open and deciduous rainforest. Its names ... www.mesoamerica-travel.com/english/honduras/ ecotourism/flora/indio%20desnudo.htm - 3k - En cach? - P?ginas similares --------------------------------------------------------------- BEER BELLY TREE "Beer belly tree" was used by a tour guide, who said it`s also "pot belly tree" or "big belly tree." (GOOGLE) NEWS Travel - Gateway to the oceans [July 13, 2003] - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... These include black palms, covered in nasty protective spines, and the comically named beer-belly tree, which contains a sponge-like material inside its trunk ... travel.news.com.au/story/0,9142,6745412-28017,00.html - 29k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Caatinga vegetation in northeastern Brazil - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] Caatinga The Barriguda (Pot-belly tree), Cavanillesia arborea , in the Caatinga. Caatinga is an Indian term meaning "white forest ... www.nybg.org/bsci/res/bahia/Caatinga.html - 2k - En cach? - P?ginas similares genus Cavanillesia- - Cavanillesia,Cavanillesia platanifolia, Quipo, Cavanillesia hylogeiton, Cavanillesia umbellata, Cavanillesia arborea, Pot-belly tree, www.omne-vivum.com/c/25098.htm - 8k - En cach? - P?ginas similares From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 00:11:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:11:18 -0500 Subject: "Jibarito" sandwich; "Sancocho"/"Melting Pot" of people Message-ID: "JIBARITO" SANDWICH Here I am, in Panama, reading about a Spanish sandwich from Chicago in the Sunday NEW YORK TIMES. For that special "sandwich person" out there, in case she missed it. (WWW.NYTIMES.COM) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/travel/15tab.html?pagewanted=2&n=Top%2fFeatures%2fTravel%2fDestinations%2fUnited%20States%2fIllinois%2fChicago Latin Accents Heat Up Chicago's Dining Scene By DENNIS RAY WHEATON Published: February 15, 2004 A HUGE immigrant population of Hispanics from all over Mexico, Central and South America and the Caribbean thrives in Chicago. Like deep-dish pizza and the blues from other worlds, Latino food and music are part of the city's soul. (...) The Winds Cafe Just as Chicago's Italians invented deep-dish pizza, Puerto Rican immigrants invented the jibarito (little bumpkin) sandwich. Instead of bread, jibarito sandwiches are made with chewy slabs of fried plantains topped with garlic. I like the ones cooked on the open griddle next to the bar in the Winds Cafe, a welcoming spot in Logan Square, a few blocks off the Kennedy Expressway connecting O'Hare Airport and downtown. At this combination neighborhood tavern and back-room restaurant with a half-dozen plastic-covered tables, jibaritos are typically filled with thin-sliced steak, but you can also get the sandwiches with jerk or honey-lime chicken or even a vegetarian patty. All come with lettuce, tomato, grilled onions and optional cheese and a side of crispy plantain chips or French fries. (GOOGLE) Rincon Criollo Restaurant - Home of the famous Jibarito Sandwich - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] Rinc?n Criollo Restaurant Home of the famous ?Jibarito Sandwich? Proud to serve Cleveland?s best Latin Food. Rinc?n Criollo ... nuestravilla.com/rinconcriollo/ - 4k - En cach? - P?ginas similares [DOC] El Rincon Criollo Formato de archivo: Microsoft Word 2000 - Versi?n en HTML ... LITE DINNERS. El Famoso Jibarito Sandwich $5.00. Famous Jibarito Sandwich. ... LITE DINNERS. El Famoso Jibarito Sandwich $5.00. Famous Jibarito Sandwich. ... nuestravilla.com/rinconcriollo/rincon_criollo_menu.doc - P?ginas similares [ M?s resultados de nuestravilla.com ] Metromix | A Chicago entertainment and restaurant guide ... - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The speciality of the house is the jibarito sandwich, which features your choice of steak, roast pork, white or dark chicken meat, vegetables or ham, plus ... entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com/ top/1,1419,M-Metromix-Dining-!PlaceDetail-21247,00.html - 45k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Metromix | A Chicago entertainment and restaurant guide - The ... - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The most popular food here are the steak sandwich and the buffalo wings, but one can also fill up on a basket of plaintains or the Jibarito sandwich. ... entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com/ top/1,1419,M-Metromix-Dining-!PlaceDetail-22011,00.html - 52k - En cach? - P?ginas similares [ M?s resultados de entertainment.metromix.chicagotribune.com ] PUERTO RICO HERALD: Saga Of A Sandwich; `I Can Do That,' Thought ... - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The Cleveland restaurant calls itself Rincon Criollo: Home of the famous "Jibarito Sandwich." When asked about this title, Rincon owner Felix Ocasio defends it ... www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/ vol7n33/SagaSandwich-en.shtml - 17k - En cach? - P?ginas similares PUERTO RICO HERALD: Puerto Rican Party Time - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The signature dish is the Jibarito, a fried plantain sandwich filled with steak, onions, lettuce and tomato with mayo and ketchup. ... www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2002/ vol6n50/PRPartyTime-en.shtml - 11k - En cach? - P?ginas similares --------------------------------------------------------------- SANCOCHO I previously discussed "sancocho." As I've said, OED is 100 years off. Miserable. That free Panama publication I cited from talked about a "sancocho" of people. Is this the same as a "melting pot"? (GOOGLE)("sancocho of people") Focus Panama: Panama City - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... ship gaggle looking for bargains. This sancocho of people is the speciality of the house only in Panama City. Travel to the Interior ... www.focuspublicationsint.com/ focuspanama/en/panama-en.htm - 14k - En cach? - P?ginas similares (GOOGLE)("sancocho" + "melting pot") UNIVERSITY of SALSA - Glossary of Terms (PT) - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... area of Cuba. sancocho. 1. A Puerto Rican stew 2. A melting pot, blend, mixture of many things together santeria. The pantheistic religion ... www.planetsalsa.com/university_of_salsa/glossarypt.htm - 52k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Focus Panama: Panama City - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... PEOPLE.- Panama has been called a melting pot, but actually it is a sancocho pot. As in the local dish, all the ingredients are ... www.focuspublicationsint.com/ focuspanama/en/panama-en.htm - 14k - En cach? - P?ginas similares AWR: Global Glimpse - Panama - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... North Americans--are also present. Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot. As in the local dish ... www.awr.org/global-glimpse-panama.html - 13k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Some things to do - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... Currency: Bl/1.00 = US$ 1.00 The People. Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot :). As in the local ... www.iaehv.nl/users/grimaldo/people.html - 8k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Bobby Flay's Postcard from NYC - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The whole city is a bubbling, spicy melting pot that never stops, with new ... great dishes you see all around Latin America and the Caribbean: sancocho, a stew of ... www.ivillage.com/food/experts/com/ articles/0,,273117_404881,00.html - 61k - En cach? - P?ginas similares LanChile - Bogota - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... The city is a unique melting pot of rich cultures and traditions, which ... Typical dishes include "sancocho" (chicken stew), "bandeja Paisa" (heaped portions of ... www7.lanchile.com/english/un/vacaciones/ sudamerica/bogota.htm - 42k - En cach? - P?ginas similares A Fishing Directory - fishseekers.com ... Travel:Personal ... - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... history and nature. Any comments? Recommend Panama Panama has been called a melting pot, but it is actually a sancocho pot. As in the ... www.fishseekers.com/search/Travel/Personal_Travelogues/ Central_America/ - 18k - En cach? - P?ginas similares From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 00:27:05 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:27:05 EST Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: In Crystal's Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language he reproduces a page from Orton's Survey of English Dialects which maps the grammatical forms "Give it me, Give it to me, and Give me it". The former is a West Midland and Kentish form--the Northern form is Give me it.--but of course this is only for England, not Scotland. Dale Coye The College of NJ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 03:42:59 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:42:59 -0500 Subject: 100 Typical Panamanian Recipes (2002) Message-ID: "Chicheme, "gallo pinto," "carimanolas," "hojaldre"--all this stuff has to be in the OED. PANAMA PIZZA www.tre-scalini.net A local pizza place. I didn't see anything special on the menu, but take a look. How about pasta "Rossini (con polli en salsa roja)"? PANAMA BOOKSTORE www.exedrabooks.com The local Borders or Barnes & Noble. You can probably order cookbooks online. I bought the following book (available only in Spanish). (GOOGLE)(A nice English description-ed.) http://vivapanama.org/OurCuisine.htm PATACONES: green plantain mashed and fried served as appetizers or like french fries to accompany meals. TAJADAS: ripe plantain sliced lengthwise and fried served as a complement to meals. It is sweet and often confused with a dessert. PLATANOS EN TENTACION: can be made with ripe plantains or bananas cut lengthwise and baked or broiled with plenty of butter and brown sugar with a sprinkle of cinnamon, sometimes with nutmeg or cheese. It has to be eaten hot and served to accompany a main course. CARIMANOLAS: made of manioc (yuca)-based dough with an oval sausage shape, filled with meat and fried. It is eaten hot as a snack or with meals. Also called "enyucados". YUCA FRITA: manioc boiled and fried, may replace French fries. EMPANADAS: corn turnovers filled with ground meat and fried. It can also be made of flour and baked. Served as snack or appetizer. TORTILLAS DE MAIZ: corn tortilla fried and served for breakfast, snacks or with meals. In the countryside it usually replaces a serving of bread. TAMAL: cornmeal stuffed with pork or chicken and some vegetables, wrapped in a square shape in banana leaves and broiled. La Chorrera, a small town 30 kms. from Panama City is famous for its giant-size tamales to which hot sauce and pasas (raisins) are added. TAMAL DE OLLA: same as a tamal but baked and served as a pie. BOLLO DE MAIZ NUEVO: young cornmeal dough boiled in its own leaves. BOLLO DE MAIZ PRE?ADO: young cornmeal dough filled with ground meat and boiled in its leaves. It is also a specialty of La Chorrera. CHICHEME: beverage made of cornmeal cooked with water, sugar and cinnamon. "Chicheme Chorrerano" is very popular and well known throughout the country. CHICHA: cold fruit juices with sugar and water. TASAJO: sun-dried meat cooked with vegetables. SANCOCHO: the country's national dish and an entire meal in itself. Chicken is cooked in pieces and simmered in water, vegetables, plantains, manioc, otoe, corn, yam and flavored with a lot of culantro. Ingredients may differ slightly according to the region. Served with white rice and hot sauce. ARROZ CON POLLO: chicken cooked with vegetables, then boned and mixed with rice. Practically every Latin American country rates it among the favorite dishes but rice and chicken are about all they have in common. GALLO PINTO: red pinto beans cooked with pork and then mixed with rice and fried. GUACHO: heavy soup with rice and beans cooked with pork or seafood. ARROZ CON GUANDU: rice cooked in coconut milk with pigeon peas. FUFU: a typical dish from the province of Bocas del Toro and the northern coast. Fried fish cooked in coconut milk with plantains, manioc, yam. Served with a lot of hot sauce. HOJALDRE: fried flour tortilla served for breakfast. SARIL: beverage made of sorrell. The bright red crisp "petals"-calyces surrounding the seed- are boiled in water, brown sugar with grated ginger root and strained. Served very cold with ice. MONDONGO: tripe prepared with vegetables, peas and tomatoes. Served with white rice and hot sauce. CEVICHE: raw fish marinated with lime, onions and hot hili. Served as appetizer. SAOS: of Jamaican origin but widely eaten as an appetizer through-out the country. Pig or cow's feet cooked and marinated in lime, onion with hot chili peppers. --------------------------------------------------------------- 100 RECETAS TIPICAS PANAMENOS DE DONA DORA Dora de Billingslea Editora Geminis (egeminis at sinfo.net) Printed in Colombia 106 pages, paperback, $7.45 Edicion Revisada 2002 ARROCES Arroz con aji dulce...25 Arroz con bacalao y coco...28 Arroz con cangrejos...27 Arroz con circuelas nacionales...29 Arroz con coco y camaroncitos titi...24 Arroz con guandu y coco...21 Arroz con pasa salado...23 Arroz con pollo...22 Arroz con zapallo...26 Gallo pinto...20 Guacho de mariscos...19 CARNES Bofe...30 Carne entomatada...33 Chicharron...47 Conejo guisado...43 Costilla de puerco con vegetales...46 Costillita de res...48 Gallina con achiote...35 Guisado de papaya (Chitre)...41 Iguana adobada...38 (PLEASE DON'T EAT THE IGUANAS!--ed.) Lechon asado...44 Lomo redondo o lomo de costillon...34 Mondongo con habas...39 Pollo en escabeche...37 Pollo con vegetales...36 Rinones...31 Ropa vieja...49 Seren o mandungo (Chitre)...40 Seso de vaca con huevo...42 CHICHAS Chicha de arroz con pina...8 Chicha loja...9 Chicha de maiz...73 Resbaladera...7 DULCES PARA POSTRES Arroz con cacao...71 Arroz con leche...72 Bollo de cuajada (Chiriqui)...77 Bollo de platano o geta...79 Bollo dulce con leche de coco...76 Bollos de maiz nuevo con coco...75 Bollos dulces con anis...74 Cabanga...69 Cocada...68 Cocada con pepita de maranon...65 Chiricanos...78 Chocao...60 Dulce de zapallo...66 Dulce de maranon...62 Huevitos de leche...70 Mamallena o pudin de pan...67 Melcocha...64 Merengue...63 Suspiros...61 ENSALADAS Ensaladas de aguacate...3 Ansalada de papaya verde...2 Ensalada de yuca con bacalao...4 Ensalada de zapallo...1 MAICES Bollo de maiz con chicharron...80 Bollos prenados...82 Empanada de maiz con platano maduro...84 Mazamorra de maiz nuevo con nance y coco...81 Tamal..59 Tamal de maiz nuevo...58 Tortillas de maiz con queso blanco...83 MARISCOS Almejas en salsa roja...56 Ceviche de conchuelas...55 Ceviche de pescado...54 Chucula o madun Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...52 Chupe de camaron...57 Lacro Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...51 Pescado en escabeche...50 Tuli machi Kuna--Yala (San Blas)...53 PANES Pan blanco...5 Pan de huevo...6 SOPA Caldo de cabezas de pescado copn name...18 Sancocho de gallina...15 Sopa de camaron...16 Sopa de carne de pecho o hueso de rodilla...14 Sopa de mariscos con leche de coco...17 Sopa de pata de res con arvejas...13 Sopa de pata de res y gabanzo...11 Sopa de rabo de res...12 VARIOS Aletas de tortuga guisadas...100 Bolleria o goyoria...91 Hojaldas u hojaldres...98 Patacones...90 Platanos en almibar o tentacion...92 Torrejas de arvejas amarillas...93 Torrejas de frijoles cabeza negra...94 Torrejas de maiz nuevo...96 Torrejas de guineo...95 Tortuga apanada...99 YUCAS Bunuelos de yuca...87 Carimanolas...85 Enyucado...88 Pastel de yuca...89 Torrejas de yuca...97 Yuca hervida con cebolla y mantequilla...86 Los aniversarios de las Bodas y su simbolismo...101 Menu de una boda tipica...102 Desayunos tipocs...102 Equivalencias y abreviaturas...105 Menus tipicos para ocasiones especiales...103 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 18 15:03:09 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:03:09 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <200402180502.i1I52vvq009393@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bev writes: BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double 'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. --------- "How to say the names in The Jungle Book", at the back of the edition I had (Kipling, of course), confused me mightily: Balu "BAR-loo" As did a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and the giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 18 15:06:22 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:06:22 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <200402180502.i1I52vvq009393@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I learned long ago never to ask for "regular" coffee, 'cause I never knew what I would get, and instead made a habit of saying "milk, NO sugar", stressing the 'NO' after a few times of getting "milk, with sugar". -- Mark A. Mandel From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Wed Feb 18 16:05:42 2004 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:05:42 +0800 Subject: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious In-Reply-To: <200402181506.i1IF6O2i026538@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious Straight Dope has this: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msupercali.html ...anything further...? [For fun I set up a domain name: http://supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.taolodge.com/] Russ r m : m c c l a y ................................................................... mcclay at taolodge.com http://taolodge.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 16:08:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:08:02 -0600 Subject: White Castles etc. Message-ID: White Castle hamburgers are known as both sliders and belly busters in the Cleveland, Ohio area. I cannot vouch for this story but a friend of my father who once ran a White Castle told him that they used to make 40 white castles out of a pound of hamburger which explains the holes in the damned things. In addition he told dad that they had to put onions on the damned things lest they fell apart. As I recall back in 1966 when I lived in Chicago their slogan was "Buy them by the bag" which meant that you could get a dozen of them for a buck. That means, of course, that if you bought 12 you would end up getting 3/10 of a pound of hamburger per bag. Many people I know in Cleveland remember quite fondly not White Castle but Royal Castle hamburgers which had similar stores. One of the more fascinating stories I can give you from Cleveland is about a bar which I think has recently closed which was locally known for selling original recipe Burger Chef hamburgers though having eaten a few of the originals I still don't know why since those of us who knew that chain before it went under used to call it Burger Death with good reason. Page Stephens From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 16:21:50 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:21:50 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch oven? It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who needs Teflon. My friend the cowboy singer Glenn Ohrlin who claims that he has eaten pancakes every day of his life used to dedicate two skillets entirely to pancakes and if you even attempted to cook anything else in them Glenn would come down on you like stink on shit. Glenn and I used make pancakes every morning which we would eat and then duly feed to the dog, the cats and most importantly the horses since it brought them up to the house so that we could saddle them up if we wanted to go riding or get some work done. Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 16:22:59 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:22:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:05 AM +0800 2/19/04, Russ McClay wrote: >Antedating: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious > >Straight Dope has this: > >http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msupercali.html > >...anything further...? > >[For fun I set up a domain name: >http://supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.taolodge.com/] > >Russ > >r m : m c c l a y >................................................................... > mcclay at taolodge.com > http://taolodge.com Nice to see American Speech and Eric Hamp involved in the history, although evidently not conclusively. I wonder whether it's a compliment to be referred to (as Peter Tamony is) as "a folk-etymologist". Better than our all being assimilated to "entymologists" as occurs later in the piece, which Cecil himself did not prepare. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 16:28:59 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:28:59 -0500 Subject: frying pans In-Reply-To: <00ca01c3f63b$51badd10$b729bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 10:21 AM -0600 2/18/04, Page Stephens wrote: > Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a >cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch >oven? > >It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the >pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. > >If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who >needs Teflon. >... >Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil >touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. > Well, this is a bit off-topic, but while it's standard wisdom to avoid soap and water (much less dishwashers) in cleaning one's cast-iron skillets/pans, I've never heard of avoiding oil. I season them with oil. In fact, I don't see how I would use one without "a drop of...oil", since I usually cook with oil in them. (They are great used dry, though, for such tasks as roasting spices.) So I'll bite--how do you season them without oil? larry From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 17:18:43 2004 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:18:43 -0500 Subject: polygotry Message-ID: >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: "San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for bigotry against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. Let's call it polygotry." See the full column at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0402180285feb18,1,4455212.column - Allan Metcalf From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:24:27 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:24:27 -0500 Subject: polygotry In-Reply-To: <570A95E9.303B0756.0003F9C1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:18 PM -0500 2/18/04, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: > >"San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for >bigotry against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. >Let's call it polygotry." > >See the full column at > >http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0402180285feb18,1,4455212.column > >- Allan Metcalf ...and if you're only bigoted against bigamy, that's called...bigotry? Hmmm. L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:29:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:29:09 -0500 Subject: polygotry In-Reply-To: <200402181718.i1IHItM14075@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >From John Kass's column in the online Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 2004: > > "San Francisco officials couldn't even come up with a reason for bigotry > against polygamy, a bias so new it doesn't have a name. Let's call it > polygotry." I suspect many Mormons would question the statement that bias against polygamy is new. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Feb 18 17:40:20 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:40:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Safire's Researcher Message-ID: If anyone knows a senior or graduate student in the DC metropolitan area who would be willing to come in to the news bureau 4 hours a day and do the research for Safire's column - contact me off list. It is a temporary, part-time, hourly, 1099 independent contractor status job, near Farragut Square. It's fun, a little extra pocket money and padding to a resume. Kathleen E. Miller "I don't know what to call myself anymore" The New York Times From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 18 17:38:14 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:38:14 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Bev writes: > >BTW, "schoolmarm" reminded me of the use of written 'r' (or even double >'r') to represent r-less New England speech in the old days; it's in >Marmie of _Little Women_ too, and in Whittier and others. I suspect >it's confused generations of readers, as it did me as a kid. > > --------- > >"How to say the names in The Jungle Book", at the back of the edition I >had (Kipling, of course), confused me mightily: > > Balu "BAR-loo" > >As did a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's > Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and the >giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that >he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or >thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in >the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) > >I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now >assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like 'it' --> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian English)? From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Feb 18 18:13:37 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:13:37 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as Message-ID: Hello all, I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with through this medium. Anyhow...a query. A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. (Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. Some other examples via google: It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it wouldn't pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., is actually Canadian). The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) My 'theory' about it: I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... So, my questions: 1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any way? 2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj [of NP]]? 3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of other cases of epenthetic 'of'? 4. Is there anything published on this construction? Thanks in advance... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 18:24:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:24:14 -0600 Subject: frying pans Message-ID: Larry, What you do is to put some cooking oil into them and then bake them to the point where they get so hot that the oil soaks into the iron. You then get rid of the oil which is left. Then they are ready to use. This may be folklore but it has always worked for me while attempting to use them off the shelf as they are sold has never worked because everything you attempt to cook in them sticks to the pan. We used to call this "curing the pan" and perhaps it didn't do us any good but I can tell you from my own experience that uncured pans didn't work as well as cured pans did. I will now give you Glenn Ohrlin's little secret about making pancakes. You add a little bit of cooking oil to his and my secret recipe for making pancakes before you make up the batter and they come out absolutely perfect. This makes certain that the pancakes do not stick to the bottom of the pan. Now, since this has always vexed me, why almost no one above the Mason Dixon line knows how to make corn bread I will give you my grandmother's recipe. Corn bread is made of corn flour and doesn't have any wheat flour or sugar in it. To make it you take a seasoned pan and mix up corn flour with a little bit of bacon and or bacon fat, add water and an egg white or two in order to hold it together. Then you bake it until it is ready to eat, i.e. hard and crisp. The stuff they call corn bread up north which is basically wheat flour and sugar with only a little bit of corn flour is an abomination sold to suckers by restaurant chains. In other words it has no more resemblance to corn bread than a snake has hips. Enough said. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:28 AM Subject: Re: frying pans > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: frying pans > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 10:21 AM -0600 2/18/04, Page Stephens wrote: > > Out of sheer curiosity does anyone out there know how to properly season a > >cast iron skillet or for that matter any other cast iron cooker like a Dutch > >oven? > > > >It takes a little knowledge or you end up with everything sticking to the > >pan since they cannot be used off the shelf. > > > >If you do it right, however, the implement will work like a charm and who > >needs Teflon. > >... > >Never, and I say never did we allow a drop of water or for that matter oil > >touch those sacred pans which I assume Glenn is still using. > > > Well, this is a bit off-topic, but while it's standard wisdom to > avoid soap and water (much less dishwashers) in cleaning one's > cast-iron skillets/pans, I've never heard of avoiding oil. I season > them with oil. In fact, I don't see how I would use one without "a > drop of...oil", since I usually cook with oil in them. (They are > great used dry, though, for such tasks as roasting spices.) > > So I'll bite--how do you season them without oil? > > larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 18 18:29:07 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:29:07 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040218123549.01171450@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2004, at 9:38 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you [mark mandel] wrote: >> ...a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's >> Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and >> the >> giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >> stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something >> that >> he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, >> or >> thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >> giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself >> in >> the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >> blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) >> >> I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I >> now >> assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel... > > Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like > 'it' > --> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian > English)? um, that arrow is pointing the wrong way. "hit" was the older form (with the initial h of "he" and "him"). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 18 18:59:16 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <56809BF4-6240-11D8-980D-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:29 AM 2/18/2004 -0800, you wrote: >On Feb 18, 2004, at 9:38 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>At 10:03 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you [mark mandel] wrote: >>>...a bit of dialect transcription in, I think, one of Andrew Lang's >>> Fairy Books. The story was a Jack tale, and >>>the >>>giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >>>stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something >>>that >>>he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, >>>or >>>thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >>>giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself >>>in >>>the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >>>blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) >>> >>>I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I >>>now >>>assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel... >> >>Interesting--kind of like Uh (= I) with prevocalic aspiration? Like >>'it' >>--> 'hit' in earlier English (and still not uncommon in Appalachian >>English)? > >um, that arrow is pointing the wrong way. "hit" was the older form >(with the initial h of "he" and "him"). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Yes, of course! From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Feb 18 19:16:56 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:16:56 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: You might try the Lowlands list. Lots of Scots there whou would be willing to answer your question. lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Jim Stalker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:58 AM Subject: Question about Scottish > Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether > "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the > preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? > > I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; > variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The > etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps > this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to > stolen money. > > Gerald Cohen > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered > to improve security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1077037653"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Wed Feb 18 20:06:13 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:06:13 -0600 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <0HTA00MNCLRM98@smtp5.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. At 06:13 PM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Lynne Murphy >Subject: as ADJ of a N as >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hello all, > >I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to >find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An >especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with >through this medium. > >Anyhow...a query. > >A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as >this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. >(Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. > >Some other examples via google: > >It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. > >As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... > >Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it >wouldn't >pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., >is actually Canadian). > >The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's >particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other >Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) > >My 'theory' about it: >I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be >inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to >prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a >joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic >constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other >American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my >students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was >the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different >preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... > >So, my questions: > >1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any >way? > >2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj >[of NP]]? > >3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of >other cases of epenthetic 'of'? > >4. Is there anything published on this construction? > > >Thanks in advance... > >Lynne >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and English Language >Arts B133 >University of Sussex >Falmer >Brighton BN1 9QN > >From UK: (01273) 678844 >Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:13:22 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:13:22 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040218140435.0297b1f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I've heard this construction before, but it's not very commonly used where I come from (northeastern MA) or where I now live (western MA). I think of it as colloquial and technically ungrammatical, in English at least. I'm not well versed enough in linguistics to comment on your characterization of the construction, but it reminds me a lot of the partitive genitive in that it seems to imply that the thing referred to is one example of a larger group of similar things. For what it's worth... On 18 Feb 2004, at 14:06, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well > scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. > > At 06:13 PM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote: > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Lynne Murphy > >Subject: as ADJ of a N as > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Hello all, > > > >I've been off the list for some time now...am tentatively coming back to > >find out whether there is such thing as a healthy work-ADS-L balance. An > >especially hearty 'hello' to those I used to regularly correspond with > >through this medium. > > > >Anyhow...a query. > > > >A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a joke as > >this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. > >(Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. > > > >Some other examples via google: > > > >It's as nice of a stock trailer as you will ever see. > > > >As old of a game it is, it stays fresh... > > > >Even if it did, its concentration would be much less than it is now, so it > >wouldn't > >pose as serious of a threat as it does to South Asian residents (this e.g., > >is actually Canadian). > > > >The British can say "as old a joke as this", so it's the _of_ that's > >particularly N American. (I can say it either way, and suspect that other > >Americans can too, but let me know if I've been Anglified.) > > > >My 'theory' about it: > >I'd guess that the 'of' could be considered something like an (would I be > >inventing this concept?) 'epenthetic morpheme' that's inserted in order to > >prevent a perceived ungrammatical string ('nice a stock trailer', 'old a > >joke') (Could we talk of morphotactic or grammotactic or syntactotactic > >constraints here?). I think one hears 'of' used in such a way in other > >American constructions (and I remember in Texas feeling that some of my > >students inserted 'of's into sentences willy-nilly--but part of that was > >the perception that they'd use 'of' when they should have used a different > >preposition). Unfortunately, I can't think of those other constructions... > > > >So, my questions: > > > >1. Is it regional in N Amer? Is it considered to be lower-register in any > >way? > > > >2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or [As [Adj > >[of NP]]? > > > >3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think of > >other cases of epenthetic 'of'? > > > >4. Is there anything published on this construction? > > > > > >Thanks in advance... > > > >Lynne > >Dr M Lynne Murphy > >Lecturer in Linguistics > > > >Department of Linguistics and English Language > >Arts B133 > >University of Sussex > >Falmer > >Brighton BN1 9QN > > >From UK: (01273) 678844 > >Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 18 20:28:05 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:28:05 -0600 Subject: A Question about dialects and pronunciation Message-ID: Has anyone else had my experience? Back in the 1950s I bought a Stinson record by the late Ewan MacColl on which he sang a number of songs in his variant of Scottish dialect and pronunciation which were entirely incomprehensible to me. After listening to them a few times, however, I understood the words and from that point in time on I have been unable to recreate my initial wonderment about what the hell he was saying. The same thing happened to me when an English friend of mine introduced me to The Goon Shows which starred Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe. I didn't know what the hell they were saying but once I learned to understand the various pronunciations they used I could never again understand how in the hell I didn't understand them the first time I had heard them and the same thing goes for Trinidadian which puzzled me the first time I heard it but which now after having lived on the island for some six months back in the '60s is clear as a bell. To be honest with you I be vexed about this phenomenon and would be interested if there is any literature on the subject. Page Stephens From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Feb 18 20:30:13 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:30:13 EST Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: Comuterworld, vo. 38 no 5, 2 February 2004, page 1 "Emcor Saves on Sarb-Ox" by Thomas AHoffman The Sarbanes-Oxley Act imposes major reporting requrrements on corporations, which means that within corporate computer and accounting divisions it is a major topic of conversation, and not surprisingly it has gotten abbreviated. This is the first abbreviated usage I have run across. Some acronym-happy camper at Emcor (which installs mechanical and electrical systmes in commercial buildings) came up with "SOCRATES": Sarb-Ox Compliance Reporting and Tracking Executive System. (same article, page 41 column 2). Also page 41 column 5 includes the term "audit-frioendly". - James A. Landau From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:32:28 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040218140435.0297b1f8@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: On 18 Feb 2004, at 14:06, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > DARE treats it at "of" section B, subsection g. It's pretty well > scattered, but somewhat more common in the South. DARE sees this as "probably a remodeling of the order adj + indef art + noun by analogy with the common pattern noun + "of" + indef art + noun (as in "a whale of a deal" or "not much of a bargain"). FWIW, the Collegiate describes a use of "of" very similar to the one in last-mentioned DARE examples: that of "a function word to indicate apposition " Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 18 20:48:05 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:48:05 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077128017@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Turns out there's a whole article devoted to this construction in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage! It's listed under "of a." If you don't have the article and would like a copy, Lynn, just send me your fax #. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 18 21:09:47 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:09:47 -0500 Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: At 03:30 PM 2/18/2004, you wrote: >Comuterworld, vo. 38 no 5, 2 February 2004, page 1 "Emcor Saves on Sarb-Ox" >by Thomas AHoffman I know it's somewhat older than that (by acronym/compound standards)--I have to deal with enforcement of it in another part of my life. It's often written without the hyphen: Sarbox. Here's a few random cites from a year or so ago: http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/25/17OPreality_1.html http://www.tva.gov/insidetva/june03/thinking.htm Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology Associate Professor, Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 C&IT Phone: +313 577-1259 English Phone: +313 577-8621 FAX: +313 577-0404 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Feb 18 21:02:14 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:02:14 -0500 Subject: First use of "Sarb-Ox" Message-ID: The formal name is the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 (Public Law 107-204, enacted July 30, 2002 - I work with it a lot). SOx or SOX is probably the more frequent shortened form and was used almost immediately after the statute's passage. From the National Post on 8/12/02: >>The source said the bank has already begun to view the SEC as its lead regulator, simply because of the stiff new listing requirements. "If [the OSC][[i.e., the Ontario Securities Commission. JMB]] wants to maintain its autonomy it needs to not only catch up but actually take the lead. Basically, the rug was pulled out from underneath them last week," he said, referring to the passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation, or SOX.<< For SarbOx, here's a Reuters story in the Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.) on 2/28/03: "Gone for the moment are questions about "material adverse change" clauses, replaced by detailed discussions about requirements under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, or "SarbOx," as it is known in legal circles." The headline is "Top M&A minds now doling out 'SarbOx' advice." For hyphenated Sarb-Ox, the American Banker has this headline from 5/16/03: "Conflicting Guidance for Small Banks on Sarb-Ox." The article's text refers only to Sarbanes-Oxley, not the shortened form. Most people just call it Sarbanes-Oxley, rather than Sarb-Ox or SOX. The statute got its name in the conference committee, when Representative Oxley (the chair of the House Financial Services Committee) proposed that the statute be named the Sarbanes Act, after Senator Paul Sarbanes (his counterpart, the chair of the Senate Banking Committee). It was widely acknowledged that Senator Sarbanes was the guiding light behind the new law, which had only minimal input from the House of Representatives. Senator Sarbanes, of course, graciously said that Rep. Oxley's name should also be in the title. I have to think that this was the outcome Oxley planned. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 18 22:56:07 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:56:07 -0800 Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: You will probably want to have a look at this site: http://www.scots-online.org/ Fritz >>> gcohen at UMR.EDU 02/17/04 08:58AM >>> Would someone familiar with Scottish please let me know whether "Gie it us" (Give it to us) can be said. Or must one use the preposition "to": ("Gie it to us")? I'm interested in cant "geetus" (= money; first attestation: 1926; variant spelling: "gheetus," which seems to indicate a hard g-). The etymology is unknown, but if Scottish "Gie it us" exists, perhaps this is the basis of "geetus," with "it" here likely referring to stolen money. Gerald Cohen From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Feb 18 23:52:04 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:52:04 -0800 Subject: polygotry Message-ID: Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically polygyny) in over a century. Is there now a movement among the Mormons for the legalization of polygamy? Fritz > > " I suspect many Mormons would question the statement that bias against polygamy is new. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 19 00:09:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:09:25 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077128017@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > ...A colleague here read an American student's phrasing "As old of a > joke as > this is..." and queried whether the rest of us could say such a thing. > (Almost) needless to say, I could, but my British colleagues couldn't. "as" is an "exceptional degree marker", in my terms: Zwicky, Arnold M. 1995. Exceptional degree markers: A puzzle in external and internal syntax. OSU WPL 47.111-23. ordinary degree markers, like "very" and Adj-ly, combine with an Adj and a bare (determinerless) NP. exceptional degree markers, like "as" and "that", combine with Adj and a NP with determiner "a(n)" (and so can be used, for most speakers, only with singular count Ns; in the nonstandard (but *very* widespread) american construction, they combine with Adj and a PP consisting of "of" plus such a NP. > ...2. How would you parse the phrase---is it [[As Adj] [of NP}] or > [As [Adj > [of NP]]? if the parsing of "very Adj N" -- e.g. "very big dog" -- is [[very Adj] N], then the parsing of "as Adj a(n) N" -- e.g. "as big a dog" -- would presumably be [[as Adj] [a(n) N]], and the parsing of "as Adj of a(n) N" -- e.g. "as big of a dog" -- [[as Adj]] [of [a(n) N]]]. but there is a move, very clear in abney's dissertation and radford's article in the Heads volume edited by corbett et al., to treat modifiers as heads of their phrases (Adj as head in Adj + N, Adv as head in Adv + Adj, somewhat parallel to D as head in D + N) and to mirror this claim in the structure of nominals: [a [very [big dog]]], [as [big [a dog]] (or [a [as [big dog]], with the "a" moved down in the structure), [as [big [of [a dog]]]. in fact, abney and radford mention the nonstandard american construction as evidence for the exceptional degree marker as head in Adv + Adj -- since the Adv and not the Adj determines how the rest of the phrase is composed. > 3. Would you agree with the 'epenthetic' of analysis? Can you think > of > other cases of epenthetic 'of'? Ns have plain clausal objects -- "the idea that pigs could fly" -- but NP objects marked with "of" -- "the idea of pigs flying". this could be seen as "of" epenthesis, or as deletion of "of" before clausal objects, or, of course, simply as a difference in marking, with no insertions or deletions (which is what i'd prefer). similarly, some determiners require "of" ("a lot of books"/*"a lot books" -- cf. "a lot bigger"), some don't allow it (*"a dozen of books"/"a dozen books"), and some show variation ("a couple of books"/"a couple books"). this could be treated as insertion (or deletion), but why? (one answer: some theories require such a treatment.) > 4. Is there anything published on this construction? see above, and references therein. there's also a fairly recent relevant article (with a pretty extensive bibliography): Seppa"nen, Aimo; Solveig Granath; & Lars Danielsson. 2002. The construction ?AdjP ? a(n) ? Noun? in present-day English syntax. Leuvense Bijdragen 91.97-136. (yes, about as obscure as my paper!) and a lengthy discussion on the LINGUIST list from a few years ago, which might have some further sources. there's variation as to which degree words are exceptional and in what contexts. for many american speakers, the nonstandard "of" variant of the exceptional markers seems to be essentially categorical, but i think there are speakers who have the "of" variant as informal and spoken, with the standard variant as formal and written. (undoubtedly variation within individuals would be good topic for research. if someone has pursued this topic, i'd like to hear about it.) maybe this is more than you wanted to hear... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 01:42:10 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:42:10 EST Subject: Question about Scottish Message-ID: In a message dated 2/18/2004 1:00:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: giant was Cornish iirc. In this one Jack does several (probably three) >stunts, using trickery or legerdemain to seem to be doing something that >he really can't do, but that the huge, strong (and stupid) giant can, or >thinks he can. Each time he dares the giant to match his deed, and the >giant says "Hur can do that!" (In the last stunt Jack stabs himself in >the stomach, where he has hidden something under his shirt to provide >blood, and of course the giant follows suit and kills himself.) > >I thought "Hur? Her? Oh well, weird dialect item." But it's just (I now >assume) r-less British English transcription for a schwa-like vowel. > The SW part of England, though not Cornwall, if memory serves, was rhotic, and if I believe "her" is the pronoun they use, see the first couple of chapters of Lorna Doone set in Devon and Somerset. I"m pretty sure this form appears there. Also probably in Hardy's West Country novels. Dale Coye The College of NJ From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Feb 19 01:25:26 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:25:26 -0500 Subject: A Question about dialects and pronunciation Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:28:05 -0600 Page Stephens writes: > Has anyone else had my experience? Not as elegant as your examples, but ... South Park. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 19 02:50:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:50:23 -0500 Subject: Teenage slang "schiznick/shiz" (= great, cool) In-Reply-To: <200402040505.i1455pvq019920@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: (catching up on my list mail) On Feb. 3 Joel Shaver wrote What's interesting is, though I hadn't connected the two until I saw it written, these words are formed with a similar infix to what my grandparents and my dad always used to use in what they called "carnival language" (one of the many pig-latinesque "languages" English has accumulated). They said the carnies used to speak it to confuse and rip off customers. The infix was more like ee-iz, though. I'm sure something like this could have been developed twice by different groups of people, though it would be interesting to see if there is any connection. ------- CLICK! In, I guess, the early sixties a New York disc jockey, Murray the K, used /i:@z/~/i:@s/ infixation as a secret language, which he called /mi:@'s^ri:/ -- "Murray" with the infix. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 03:32:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:32:27 -0500 Subject: Duty Free Zone (1947?), Fun Size (1968) Message-ID: Greetings from Panama City, Panama. I leave for two days in David tomorrow. --------------------------------------------------------------- DUTY FREE ZONE We visited the "duty-free zone" of Colon. It`s also called "DFZ" or "free zone," or "EPZ" or "export processing zone." This is the largest duty-free zone in the Americas, and the second-largest in the world after China (Hong Kong). I was told that it began in 1947. OED doesn't have "duty-free zone," and OED's other "duty-free" definitions also appear to be way off. OT: You could probably buy a Dell here and save some money, but the place is a little creepy. (OED) b. Comb. duty-free shop, a shop at an airport, on a boat, etc., at which duty-free goods can be bought. 1965 Which? May 150/1 Not all airports have duty-free shops. 1969 Ibid. Mar. 79/1 Some ?duty-free? shop prices are too high. 1970 New Yorker 16 May 44/2 Maybe I should get him a gift at the duty-free shop. 1971 P. PURSER Holy Father's Navy iv. 22 We were already on the second of the two bottles we'd bought at the duty-free shop. B. n. A duty-free article; freq. used in pl., esp. of cigarettes, alcoholic drinks, etc., bought and imported free of duty by those returning from or travelling abroad; also, a duty-free shop. colloq. 1958 Times 16 Sept. 10/7 The meagre stub in his mouth had burnt out and I offered him one of my duty-frees. 1980 J. GARDNER Garden of Weapons III. xii. 349 I'm going to march you into the duty free at Tegel and make you buy them. 1982 Economist 21 Aug. 64/1 A sample shopping basket of duty-frees costs almost twice as much on LB-F?rjorna lines as it does at..Schiphol airport. 1985 Sunday Times 10 Mar. 12/1 (Advt.), During the flight, our cabin staff will be coming round with drinks and Duty-Frees. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Colon, Panama -(new title everyone!) I'm curious as to know if the Duty Free Shopping in Colon, Panama, (a port of call on Carnival Legend's western exotic itinerary) also known as the FREE ZONE ... rec.travel.cruises - 23 Ene 2003 por Linda Coffman - Ver la conversaci?n (6 art?culos) (GOOGLE) http://www.grayline-panama.com/pty/english/sightseeing/shopping.htm Early pick up at your hotel at 7am to depart for Colon City, where the Duty Free Zone is located. It is one of the most important distribution centers in the world for imports and re-exports for Latin america. Your purchases will be subjected to aduana formalities if you want to take out the merchandises with you. Take in consideration that the main purpose of this area is for wholesale sales, therefore many shops will require a minimum amount of sales to be able to honore your purchases. Alternatively the acquired products could be retired at the International Airport just before your departure from our country not being subject then to duties or taxes. However many shops in the city are branches of the Colon Duty Free Warehouses and can offer you Duty free prices in Panama if you have two days for the formalities needed to receive your merchandise at the airport. Stores as Audiofoto Internacional, Multimax, Collins among many others are trustworthy. Note: You should bring your passport. It is open on working days only from Monday to Friday, from 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Please bear in mind that during the Jewish holidays (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 12/9/1959 ...election 82 to 81. The COLON FREE Zone of PANAMA, DUTY-FREE assembly and distribution.....Apply with brush, roller, floor brush. FREE 6-chip color chart Guaranteed by Good.....Refrigerator Plus this Deluxe camera Plus FREE film for life 1190 J All for Only Big 11.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Wednesday, December 09, 1959 711 k --------------------------------------------------------------- FUN SIZE We toured the local supermarket for picnic-type stuff. Snickers and Mars "fun-size" packages are sold here. I never understood "fun size." Are all other sizes "grim"? Would...ah...other, non-food items be considered "fun size"? The "fun size" term appears to be specific to Mars products. (TRADEMARK) Word Mark FUN SIZE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONERY. FIRST USE: 19681100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73080331 Filing Date March 15, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1050880 Registration Date October 19, 1976 Owner (REGISTRANT) MARS, INCORPORATED CORPORATION DELAWARE WESTGATE PARK 1651 OLD MEADOW ROAD MCLEAN VIRGINIA 22101 Attorney of Record LESLIE K MITCHELL Prior Registrations 0990287 Disclaimer WITHOUT WAIVER OF OR PREJUDICE TO ITS COMMON LAW RIGHTS, APPLICANT DISCLAIMS ANY EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS IN THE WORD "SIZE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19970219 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Feb 19 03:57:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:57:09 -0500 Subject: Duty Free Zone (1947?), Fun Size (1968) Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has "duty-free zone" referring to Mexico from 1920. Also a cite about Russia having a "fifty-first zone which is duty-free" from 1911. SC From: > DUTY FREE ZONE > We visited the "duty-free zone" of Colon. It`s also called "DFZ" or "free zone," or "EPZ" or "export processing zone." This is the largest duty-free zone in the Americas, and the second-largest in the world after China (Hong Kong). > I was told that it began in 1947. OED doesn't have "duty-free zone," and OED's other "duty-free" definitions also appear to be way off. From indigo at WELL.COM Thu Feb 19 06:33:12 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:33:12 -0800 Subject: frypan/frying pan Message-ID: Yes, that's what I meant: if it's a pan that's cast iron, I call it a cast iron pan. (With or w/o hyphen is fine w/ me.) If it's a pan made of something else, I just call it a pan, unless I specifically need it to be a teflon pan or a non-stick pan, in which case I call it those things. Although in our house most of the pans are cast iron, so we usually just say pan even for the cast iron ones. If it's deeper than about 2 or 2.5" then it becomes a pot to me. A pan is shallow. There are also bread pans & cake pans, but since I don't use those very often I don't have to use the words for them very often either. As for the other question about seasoning cast iron pans: it's all true. A well-seasoned pan develops a smooth, black non-stick surface that is very different from the bumpy, gray, very stick-prone surface of a new pan. I do use the tiniest possible drop of dishsoap when washing my cast iron pans, but the key thing is this: immediately after washing, you put them back on the stove & heat them until all residual water is evaporated; then you coat them with oil. (This procedure is known in our house as "the happiness of the pans". More than you wanted to know.) >That makes a lot more sense and is probably what Indigo Som meant. > >I've always heard cast iron pan, but I'm not sure what the exact semantic >range is since I don't have cast iron myself. I think my mom always used >cast iron pan for anything from a frying pan to a deep chili pan. > >Benjamin Barrett > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >> >>At 8:08 PM -0800 2/14/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>?None of my frying pans are cast iron. Do you say cast iron pan >>>regardless of what it's made of? >>> >>>Benjamin Barrett >> >>If I can speak for all of us, I don't know of anyone who calls >>something a cast iron pan, or a cast iron skillet, regardless >>what it's made of. My claim was that I distinguish "cast iron >>skillet" from "frying pan", the latter being made of >>silverstone/teflon no-stick surface, aluminum, or whatever. >>(I have some in each >>category.) I have heard "cast iron pan", but (even though I'm >>from New York) I use skillet for the cast iron kind, but not >>for the others. >> >>Larry >> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >>>>Behalf Of Indigo Som >>> >>>>Am I the only person who says "cast-iron pan"? If necessary I say >>>>"cast-iron frying pan". I never say skillet or frypan. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: gay marriage From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 11:47:58 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:47:58 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the valuable info. My curiosity is mostly sated! Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Feb 19 13:48:53 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:48:53 -0500 Subject: Family Size, Biggie Size, Supersize Message-ID: Following up on "fun size," here are some other food "sizes." "Family size" is not an entry in the OED. "Family size" seems to have become popular about 1899, and then especially in products sold after WWII. "Biggie size" is from Wendy`s, and "Supersize fries" is from McDonald`s. Am I missing any other food sizes? FAMILY SIZE--547,000 Google hits, 15,900 Google Groups hits SUPER SIZE--244,000 Google hits, 104,000 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE--211,000 Google hits, 61,000 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE FRIES--435 Google hits, 335 Google Groups hits SUPERSIZE FRIES--796 Google hits, 440 Google Groups hits BIGGIE SIZE--2,510 Google hits, 832 Google Groups hits (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Sampling before 1920--ed.) Indiana Weekly Messenger - 6/5/1919 ...prepare Bulgarian Blood Tea in a convenient FAMILY SIZE package, which can be obtained at.....it, I will be pleased to send you my large FAMILY SIZE package, which lasts five months.....Reunions. The annual reunion of the Diehl FAMILY will be hesd at the home of A. Diehl.....June 19. All friends and relatives of the FAMILY are cordially invited. The annual.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 05, 1919 603 k North Adams Transcript - 11/11/1901 ...you with the best at 98c for small FAMILY SIZE. large FAMILY SIZE and and for larger.. , Monday, November 11, 1901 0 k Daily Review - 10/24/1913 ...Law, contains enough to make seven liberal FAMILY SIZE desserts or fillings for seven.....less than four cents for each delicious FAMILY SIZE dessert or for each whole cake.....that will be delightfully new to your FAMILY. Use Snow-Mellow first as a topping.....madam, to your grocer and get for your FAMILY thit exquisite. wondarfol Snow-Mallow.. Decatur, Illinois Friday, October 24, 1913 408 k Elyria Evening Telegram - 5/7/1915 ...Jell is sold only in sanitary glass jars. FAMILY SIZE. 25c. One-pound jar physicians.....a quarter of a pint for a quarter; large FAMILY SIZE, 50c. Results absolutely.....made truly in the form of r-. Children love FAMILY take it pleasantly and with sutis-fiu.....with farts and fore. -fill. it miirht bo FAMILY of any country duritic war: t.hrpooplo.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, May 07, 1915 747 k (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: McDonalds Bashers -- Have they tried it all? ... (By the way, my typical McDonald's fast food dinner consists of a Big Mac Combo [Big Mac, Supersize Fries and a Large Orange Drink], and three Cheeseburgers ... alt.mcdonalds - 29 Nov 1992 by cvafy006 at vmsb.is.csupomona.edu - View Thread (1 article) vSilence #72: Grant Lee Buffalo ... wage bozo who drew the short straw at the last shift-selection and got stuck wearing the dorky headset and listening to people shout "Biggie-Size my Spicy ... rec.music.misc - 12 Jun 1996 by glenn mcdonald - View Thread (2 articles) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE CATEGORY LEADER IN 2-LB FAMILY SIZE ENTREES Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: COOKED AND FROZEN READY TO HEAT AND SERVE PREPACKAGED MEALS INCLUDING MEAT AND STEAKS, POTATOES, POULTRY, PORK AND PASTAS Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 240501 260103 260107 260108 260117 260120 260121 Serial Number 76522286 Filing Date June 12, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) On-Cor Frozen Foods, Inc. CORPORATION ILLINOIS 627 Landwehr Road Northbrook ILLINOIS 60062 Attorney of Record Adam Sacharoff Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SUPER SIZE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74451719 Filing Date October 28, 1993 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition March 7, 1995 Registration Number 1896607 Registration Date May 30, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) McDONALD'S CORPORATION CORPORATION DELAWARE 2915 JORIE BLVD. Oak Brook ILLINOIS 60523 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark BIGGIE SIZE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant and carry out services, and food and drink preparation services, namely, preparation of french fried potatoes and soft drinks. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 IC 029. US 046. G & S: french fried potatoes for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 IC 032. US 045 046 048. G & S: soft drinks for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19960400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19960400 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75015864 Filing Date November 7, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition April 8, 1997 Registration Number 2075049 Registration Date July 1, 1997 Owner (REGISTRANT) Delavest, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 200 West Ninth Street Plaza Box 2105 Wilmington DELAWARE 19899 (LAST LISTED OWNER) OLDEMARK LLC LTD LIAB CO BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT NOT PROVIDED 100 BANK STREET SUITE 610 BURLINGTON VERMONT 05401 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Frank H. Foster Prior Registrations 1650884 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SIZE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Feb 19 14:12:08 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:12:08 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) (fwd) Message-ID: For anyone who might be interested, my colleague did a little googling on this topic. Cheers, Lynne ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:47 pm +0000 From: Max Wheeler To: linguisticsdept at admin.susx.ac.uk, linguisticspgr at admin.susx.ac.uk Subject: Re: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice. By google: as good of a 30,500 how good of a 22,000 as bad of a 1830 how bad of a 3760 as new of a 54 how new of a 93 as old of a 49 how old of a 311 as beautiful of a 97 how beautiful of a 209 as ugly of a 78 how ugly of a 42 and with other degree modifiers that good of a 15,900 too good of a 14,100 so good of a 474 very good of a 118 quite good of a 20 real good of a 13 really good of a 17 Max Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 19 14:58:51 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:58:51 -0800 Subject: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a list of the "white" diners/burger joints that I could find in Northern NJ: White Manna White Mana White Diamond White Circle White Rose System You can follow an interesting discussion of their pros and cons at: http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=4248&st=30 Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > >There are a lot of White Castles up in northern NJ. > >Some of them must go back to the 70s, since my wife > (a > >native) ate them in her childhood. > > > >There's also a number of variations on the "White" > >theme. The one I recall is "White Manna", which I > >think is in Hackensack. > > originating as "White Manor"? > > >There's also a White X > >System--I think one in Highland Park on Rt. 27. > > > >Any similar joints in NY? > > > I think so, although I can't remember the names. > There was a pretty > good movie a while back called "White Palace", with > Susan Sarandon > (who was a waitress in an eponymous hamburger joint) > and James > Spader, but I'm assuming the scriptwriter invented > the chain for the > occasion. > > larry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 19 15:16:52 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:16:52 -0500 Subject: Question about Scottish In-Reply-To: <200402190509.i1J59lvq026504@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >>> The SW part of England, though not Cornwall, if memory serves, was rhotic, and if I believe "her" is the pronoun they use, see the first ^ as ? couple of chapters of Lorna Doone set in Devon and Somerset. I"m pretty sure this form appears there. Also probably in Hardy's West Country novels. <<< Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Feb 19 17:53:27 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:53:27 -0500 Subject: Here at last Message-ID: I requested some months ago that the library here buy the following philological study: The fucktionary = Slownik wyrazen z fuck, by Maciej Widawski, Gdansk: Wydawn. Comprendo, 1994. Evidently there were difficulties involved -- I recently asked one of the guys in the Acquisitions dept. to ask his grandmother in Warsaw to go to a bookstore and buy it for us -- but instead, it was got, it seems, from The Polish Bookstore in Ottawa, (polishbookstore.com). Now that I have it before me, I wonder whether it was worth the effort. It certainly requires a better command of Polish than mine to get the full benefit of it. It's 221 pages, incluing a bibliography of dictionaries and studies. The entries include definitions and (apparently) commentary in Polish, and are supported by quotations in English, mostly unsourced. When a source is given -- David Mamet is cited, and James Jones, and others -- no work is specified, let alone a page reference. I can't even boast that we are the only kid on our block to have the book, since it's at the NYPL. I did succeed in astonishing the students who work in the department, and that's something, I suppose. George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 19 19:52:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:52:56 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077199928@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2004, at 6:12 AM, Lynne Murphy forwards: > For anyone who might be interested, my colleague did a little googling > on > this topic. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > Date: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:47 pm +0000 > From: Max Wheeler > To: linguisticsdept at admin.susx.ac.uk, linguisticspgr at admin.susx.ac.uk > Subject: Re: as ADJ of a N as (fwd) (fwd) > > The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've > learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice... [lots of hits on "Deg Adv of a"] this shows that the construction with "of" is very common in american english. but that's already well known. this sampling doesn't control for source/context/etc. and doesn't compare the "of" construction to the corresponding construction without "of", so it provides no way of moving from "very widespread" to "standard". it could be like nominative coordinate objects ("between Kim and I") -- very widespread but not standard -- or like stranded prepositions ("What were you talking about?") -- very widespread and standard, even if objected to in some advice manuals. the question is: what is the practice of elite writers in current formal written american english? nominative coordinate objects don't cut it, but stranded prepositions certainly do. i'm pretty sure that exceptional degree marking with "of" doesn't cut it, though to be sure someone would have to do a study that controlled for the relevant contextual factors. i do know that i have *very* few examples from formal writing by elite writers (except in quoted speech). my experience is also that those who have only the "of"-less construction tend to notice occurrences of the "of" construction, to comment on them, and even to deride them, while those who are heavy (perhaps exclusive) users of the "of" construction simply don't notice instances of the "of"-less construction, and are often astonished to be told that they don't talk/write quite like many other people and that editors and teachers might even object to their usage. this is a common pattern for nonstandard vs. standard variants. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 20 03:54:22 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:54:22 -0500 Subject: Chocolatte, Welcome Drink (1965); "Primeval rainforests bedecked with clouds..." Message-ID: "PRIMEVAL RAINFOREST BEDECKED WITH CLOUDS..." Greetings from the Gran Hotel Nacional in David, Panama. Those interested in how NOT to write tourism literature should check out my itinerary for today: This enchanted land is the Chiriqui Highlands, the part of the Cordillera Central that defines the northern border of the province of Chiriqui. Primeval rainforests bedecked with clouds, noisy, chattering birds flash brilliant iridescent colors as they dart about their daily chores, flowering epiphytes bloom en masse high above the forest floor while gurgling streams glisten and tumble over great boulders in their dance towars the sea. (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!--ed.) It is a beautiful landscape of cloud forests, volcanic peaks, coffee plantations and home to most of Panama's Guaymi Indians. --------------------------------------------------------------- WELCOME DRINK WELCOME DRINK--110,000 Google hits, 1,100 Google Groups hits WELCOMING DRINK--2,060 Google hits, 80 Google Groups hits I just had the Gran Hotel National's welcome drink, a Seco Herrerano. Actually, I just had ice water, but whatever. OED does not record "welcome drink." There are earlier "hits" in Newspaperarchive.com, but this is the first I spotted for the free hotel alcoholic thing. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indiana Evening Gazette - 11/16/1965 ...be found here. RATE INCLUDES FOLLOWING: 'WELCOME DRINK upon arrival in Jamaica rnfle.....overlooking the Caribbean 'Complimentary WELCOME DRINK fruit basket placed in your.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 16, 1965 786 k --------------------------------------------------------------- CHOCOLATTE We visited the coffee plant of Cafe Ruiz (www.caferuiz.com) at Boquete, Chiriqui (Panama). The coffee is very expensive, but very very good. "Fair Trade Coffee" was discussed and dismissed by the Cafe Ruiz tour guide. "FTC" should be recorded. The Cafe Ruiz coffee shop offered the following. I don't think I've recorded "chocolatte" before, but there are 2,680 Google hits and some trademarks for it: ESPRESSO CAPUCCINO MOCACCINO CHOCOLACCINO CHOCOLATTE LATTE SABORIZADO CAFE HELADO+MOCALATTE --------------------------------------------------------------- OT: MARMALADE IN BOQUETE We also visited a marmalade factory. Excellent, excellent stuff! Just don't tell GOURMET or the NY TIMES' R. W. Apple about Boquete! The place is quickly being discovered, as is Panama. Tourism has shot up in the past four years. CONSERVAS DE ANTANO offers Guanabana, Maranon, and other flavors. There's not much "word-worthy" to report there. We met the owner, a Canadian-Panamanian named Cecilia MacIntyre (macintyre at cwpanama.net). I begged her to write a cookbook for this area. If you have regional food questions for this area, write to her care of our Panama Star tour group. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Feb 20 11:38:14 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:38:14 -0000 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo Message-ID: Some interesting quotes have come out of newspaperarchive.com. First is this from the "Coshocton Daily Age" for 31 Dec 1906: "Bill keeps up with the times and knows that skiddoo means 23". This equation is reinforced by a humorous piece in the "Elyria Daily Chronicle" for 17 September 1906: REAL SKIDOO PARTY Miss Schidu Will Give It Sept. 23 to Twenty-Three Girls A "skiddoo" party is the latest. Miss Margaret Schidu of Cleveland, O., will give a party on Sept. 23 in honor of her twenty-third birthday at her home, 23 East Twenty-third street, says a special dispatch from Cleveland to the Chicago Inter Ocean. "People have been having lots of fun with our name since the term 'skiddoo' has come into use." said Miss Schidu recently, "so I decided to have a real 'skiddoo' party on my next birthday. My age will be carried out prettily with twenty-three candles on the birthday cake, and a souvenir card lettered twenty-three will be distributed among the twenty-three guests -- I am going to have just twenty-three girls present, you know -- while an orchestra of twenty-three pieces will play behind a bank of twenty-three palms. I am trying to get a friend, a composer, to write a ballad entitled 'Skiddoo For You.' I propose to engage autos and change their license numbers to 23. I have an uncle who has a farm of twenty-three acres and shall take my guests there in the afternoon, where there will be dancing in the evening, with twenty-three dances on the programme." And a suggestion for the origin of the number appears in the "Humeston New Era" for 26 Dec. 1906: The slang words "skiddoo" and "twenty-three" have an associated meaning which is "get out of the way," "make way for your betters" and so forth. "Skiddoo" seems to be another form of "skedaddle," which is an old, familiar slang word for precipitate retreat. It is probably college slang, since it is derived from the Greek word "skedazein," which means run away. The figures "23" are a telegraphic signal or abbreviation, which means that messages marked with it need not be hurried through if there is more important matter to occupy the wires. A "23" message, therefore, is one that has to surrender the right of way if there are others that must be rushed through without delay, la other words, it has to get out of the way of its betters. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Feb 20 12:02:23 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:02:23 +0000 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another colleague has now found lots of instances of "as hell of a", leading him to wonder whether 'hell' has been reanalysed as an adj. That phrase is totally foreign to my dialect. I'm guessing it's more Southern? (One of his e.g.s was from a John Prine song.) Meanwhile.... --On Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:52 am -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> The evidence appears to be that this is standard AmE. So I've >> learnt/learned something new that had escaped my notice... > > [lots of hits on "Deg Adv of a"] > > this shows that the construction with "of" is very common in american > english. but that's already well known. this sampling doesn't control > for source/context/etc. and doesn't compare the "of" construction to > the corresponding construction without "of", so it provides no way of > moving from "very widespread" to "standard". I seem to have made a mistake in my cutting and pasting--he did compare it to the corresponding of-less construction further down in his message, and it's not in the version that I sent to the list. Sorry. In his comparison list,there were fewer without 'of', but when I tried to replicate his result, I got far, far more without 'of'. Doing it with actual NPs in place, I got: As good a job 35,800 As good of a job 3,830 As good a time 89,700 As good of a time 1,800 But this has no control for place. Searching just in .mil and .gov (definitely US, but likely to be higher register) I got: as good a = 5,350 as good of a = 131 as old a = 12 as old of a = 0 Looking in .com (which is likely but not guaranteed to be US English), I got: as good a = 205,000 as good of a = 19,200 as scary a =379 as scary of a = 48 So the 'of a' variant is definitely rarer in general. I also tried searching for "as good (of) a" plus a state name, thinking that if it's more common in the south, maybe pages with 'Texas' 'Alabama' or 'Kentucky' would have a greater proportion than those with 'New Jersey' or 'Minnesota'. The rate of 'of' constructions (using the adjective 'good') as a %age of non-'of' constructions was: FL 8.3%, TX 6.6%, WY 6.6%, MN 5.8%, AL 5.8%, KY 4.7%, NJ 4.2%, OR 3.8%, GA 3.1%, ME 3.0% (Georgia, of course, could be affected by the country name.) In this very unscientific survey, it does look a bit south-oriented, but west-central looks a bit of-ish too. And that's how I amused myself over breakfast... Cheers, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Feb 20 15:27:28 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:27:28 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <4035F1A6.6781.B8419D@localhost> Message-ID: A prevalent spelling in the early days apparently was "skidoo". The expression (with or without the number) seems to have popped up rather suddenly in early 1906. My impression is that "skidoo" resembled "scoot" more than "skedaddle". -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Feb 20 17:12:50 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:12:50 -0000 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040220095554.02f12d70@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > A prevalent spelling in the early days apparently was "skidoo". The > expression (with or without the number) seems to have popped up rather > suddenly in early 1906. My impression is that "skidoo" resembled > "scoot" more than "skedaddle". The newspaper evidence is that the word, in either spelling, suddenly appears in 1906 and instantly becomes very common. It is more common for "skidoo" to be used without "23" than is "skiddoo". Some of the early citations seem to imply it is derived from "skid". The examples I quoted imply that "skiddoo" means the same thing as "23". Did "23" already commonly have the meaning of "go away" in 1906? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 17:52:11 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:52:11 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077278543@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 4:02 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Another colleague has now found lots of instances of "as hell of a", > leading him to wonder whether 'hell' has been reanalysed as an adj. > That > phrase is totally foreign to my dialect. I'm guessing it's more > Southern? > (One of his e.g.s was from a John Prine song.) new to me. a wild guess is that it's a reanalysis of "a hell of a". only with "as"? not also with, say, "too" or "so"? ("that hell of a" would already be possible, with a somewhat different meaning.) > Meanwhile.... [some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:05:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:05:02 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <825C55AC-63CD-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] > >this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: "I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for what's he's been through personally and professionally." -S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds and the steroid issue From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:18:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:18:17 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:05 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> [some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >> >> this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... > > Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: > > "I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for > what's he's been through personally and professionally." > > -S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds > and the steroid issue the MWDEU entry begins with citations from various sports figures, and goes on to jim lehrer, jeff smith (the Frugal Gourmet), ed koch, and erma bombeck. it concludes with: "the only stricture on it suggested by our evidence is that it is a spoken idiom: you will not want to use it much in writing except of the personal kind." arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:21:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:21:49 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. At 01:05 PM 2/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >>[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >> >>this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... > >Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: > >"I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for >what's he's been through personally and professionally." > >-S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds >and the steroid issue From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:38:39 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:38:39 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040220131710.02041430@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've >become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall >being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. I've heard it all my life. Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:35:42 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: Fwd: AAE movie Message-ID: I'll forward this from another list I'm on, in case anyone has a suggestion. (I don't like the Communication Disorders implication, but what can we do?) >X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:50:04 -0500 >From: "Shelley L. Velleman" >Subject: AAE movie >To: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) >X-Accept-Language: en >Sender: >List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.0.2 by LetterRip Software, LLC. >List-Unsubscribe: >X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu >X-PMX-Stop: Fri Feb 20 09:54:58 2004 >X-PMX-Start: Fri Feb 20 09:54:58 2004 >X-PMX-Version: 4.5.0.90627, Antispam-Core: 4.0.4.90552, Antispam-Data: >2004.2.19.92366 (pm7) >X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html >X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, PureMessage (score=0, required 5) >X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, >__MOZILLA_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, >__HAS_X_MAILER 0, __MOZILLA_MUA 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, >__CT 0, __CTE 0, X_ACCEPT_LANG 0, SUSPECT_LIST_HEADERS 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0' > >I'm looking for a movie (not a documentary) that has grammatical >features of AAE in it. So far, the best I've found is the character >Quentin in "The Best Man". Suggestions welcome! > >Thanks. > >Shelley Velleman >Communication Disorders >U. Mass. Amherst From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:46:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:46:48 -0800 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:38 AM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >> I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >> usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but >> I've >> become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't >> recall >> being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. > > I've heard it all my life. MWDEU's cites go back only to 1942-43. i suspect this could be improved on, but probably by years rather than decades. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Feb 20 18:51:51 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:51:51 -0600 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040220131710.02041430@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but I've >become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't recall >being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. I first heard it in Milwaukee in 1982. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics >At 01:05 PM 2/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>At 9:52 AM -0800 2/20/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> >>>[some fascinating quick googling on "Deg Adv of a" vs. "Deg Adv a".] >>> >>>this sort of thing quickly gets addictive... >> >>Just encountered in today's N. Y. Times sports section, D2: >> >>"I'm not worried about Barry. Barry's too strong of a person for >>what's he's been through personally and professionally." >> >>-S. F. Giants general manager Brian Sabean, on superstar Barry Bonds >>and the steroid issue From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Feb 20 19:02:24 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:02:24 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <23EEFF52-63D5-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:46 AM 2/20/2004 -0800, you wrote: >On Feb 20, 2004, at 10:38 AM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>>I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >>>usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, but >>>I've >>>become more tolerant of it. Is it possibly age-related? I don't >>>recall >>>being aware of it as a kid, but now I hear it everywhere. >> >>I've heard it all my life. > >MWDEU's cites go back only to 1942-43. i suspect this could be >improved on, but probably by years rather than decades. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Jim Lehrer would fit that age, and maybe regional, profile too; he's 65-ish and from Texas. From yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 20 23:56:23 2004 From: yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM (NOLA DAISY) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:56:23 -0800 Subject: all up in my kitchen Message-ID: Just getting back to the listserv, but had to respond to this post! I don't have any documentation, but another example I've heard is, "all up in my Kool-Aid and don't even know the flavor!" I've heard friends of mine in community theatre [in New Orleans] use that particular expression for at least 8-10 years now. And I know I used it just last week in reference to my boss being "in my business and space." Hope that helps! Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: all up in my kitchen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luanne, I got a response on "all up in my kitchen" and variants thereof from a former student who lives in the Cleveland-Erie area. I'll paste it in: My niece, who lives & works in a suburb of Cleveland, reports that two co-workers, native Clevelanders, have heard the phrase. One said it's used by blacks. The other said he hadn't heard it in a long time, & the last time it was by a cook, race/ethnicity unspecified. It definitely does mean "you are in my business," but seems to have given/be giving way to a large assortment of other expressions which mean the same thing. The two she gave as examples are, "They're all up in your/my conversation," and "Do you want to know what I had for breakfast, too?" If you'd like me to find out more details on this report, just lemme know. I'll pass on whatever else I hear. Beverly At 03:28 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Another query I received: > >>contain an element of "provoking me." My sister reports having heard this >in Cleveland, and I can find it in some web diaries/blogs, but I've never >encountered it myself. > > > >I'm not familiar with this. Anyone who can help? > >Thanks. > >Luanne > >Luanne von Schneidemesser >Dictionary of American Regional English >University of Wisconsin-Madison >600 N. Park St., 6129 H.C. White Hall >Madison WI 53706 >http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Feb 21 00:49:16 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:49:16 -0800 Subject: Neck of the woods Message-ID: A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Perhaps I'm failing to see the forest for the trees. Can anybody shed light on the origins of this expression? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Feb 21 01:09:51 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:09:51 -0500 Subject: Neck of the woods In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077295756@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 20, 2004 at 04:49:16PM -0800, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and > now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and > several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first > occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's > a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this > one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something > like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how > "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Have you checked OED? Its definition reveals: b. orig. U.S. A narrow stretch of wood, pasture, ice, etc. Now usually in neck of the woods: a settlement in wooded country, or a small or remotely situated community; (hence more generally) a district, neighbourhood, or region. in this neck of the woods: in this vicinity, around here (also used elliptically). Formerly also neck of timber. Citations from 1637 onwards follow. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 02:49:06 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:49:06 -0500 Subject: "Burial of the Sardine," Pizzacones, Pollera, Mojaderas, Chaquiras Message-ID: Greetings again from David, Panama. Carnival is about to start here any minute. I love Panama! 23 SKIDDOO--See my prior posts. "Twenty-three" dates at least to 1899. Vaudeville performer Billy Vann supposedly put the phrase together. ----------------------------------------------------- "BURIAL OF THE SARDINE" BURIAL OF THE SARDINE--367 Google hits, mostly for Francisco Goya's painting of that name. Not in OED. From THE VISITOR/EL VISITANTE (PANAMA), Vol. 10, no. 4, February 13-26, 2004, pg. 9, col. 3: _A bizarre ceremony_ After four days of dancing, jumping and watching colorful parades, Panamanians end Carnival activities with a bizarre tradition: the "burial of the sardine." On Ash Wednesday, very early in the morning, hundreds flock to the beaches to witness the ceremony, which represents a resolve to forgo earthly pleasures in preparation for Lent. ----------------------------------------------------- PIZZACONES Our lunch stop today--the Dos Rios hotel restaurant--served "Pizzacones tambal--Patacones cubiertos con tamate, mozarella y peperoni." There are 16,800 Google hits for "patacones," but only this one for "pizzacones" (in a Spanish-language publication from Panama). I only know that they're good: http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2002/02/28/hoy/revista/465255.html Para resolver el problema, elegimos una cosa de cada categor?a. Entre las entradas calientes, pedimos un pulpo al carb?n que no me gust? mucho, puesto que lo sent? algo cauchudo, pero los pizzacones (patacones con salsa marinara, queso mozzarela y peperoni) fueron grandes favoritos de los RDT j?venes. Las almejas a la macha, con salsa de tomate y un toque de picante complacieron a todos y el seviche frito tambi?n gust?, y de las entradas fr?as, puedo recomendar sin hesitaci?n el seviche preparado de camarones, uvas y pepitas de mara??n. Entre las sopas, la crema de ma?z con cangrejo, un potaje de un bello color cremoso y de textura aterciopelada har?a que Mafalda cambiara su oposici?n militante a la sopa. ----------------------------------------------------- POLLERA POLLERA + PANAMA=1,660 Google hits OED has no entry (Yeesh!), but there is one 1964 citation under "montuno." From the same tourist publication as above, pg. 8, col. 2: The obvious question is, why does every body want to go to Las Tablas during Carnival? Some say it is due to the grace with which the queens wear the _Pollera_ (the country's national female attire) during Carnival Tuesday. Others say it is the girls themselves (Las Tablas has the reputation of being the birthplace of the country's most beautiful women). No one knows for certain. (GOOGLE) Pollera, The National Costume of Panama Pollera. Pollera Costume, Panama City. The Panamanian Girls display their gala attire to best advantage on fiesta occasions. The Pollera ... plaza.ufl.edu/bruiz/PW/pollera.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages ----------------------------------------------------- MOJADERAS Another Carnival term used in Panama. My online OED has stopped working. (GOOGLE)(81 hits--ed.) EL PANAMA AMERICA: RESUMEN DE NOTICIAS 2001 (comunidad) - [ Translate this page ] ... Las instalaciones que se utilizaron para celebrar culecos o mojaderas deb?an disponer de letrinas qu?micas y sanitarios suficientes. ... www.epasa.com/resumen2001/comunidad.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages Panamatours Magazine ... In the mornings, the "mojaderas" (water is sprinkled on carnival participants in the streets) refresh the tropical heat; in the afternoons the parades with ... www.panamatours.com/Magazine/carnaval_2000.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages Carnaval en Panam? - Panamatours.com - [ Translate this page ] ... En las ma?anas, las ?mojaderas? refrescan el calor tropical; en las tardes los desfiles y paradas con ?Reinas? de extravagantes y lujosos disfraces en ... www.panamatours.com/Magazine/magazine_esp.htm - 9k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.panamatours.com ] Actual?cese con La Prensa Web - [ Translate this page ] ... El alcalde Manuel C?rdenas est? resuelto a prohibir tambi?n en el ?rea los culecos y las mojaderas que se dan durante las festividades del Carnaval en la ... mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2002/ 08/25/hoy/nacionales/680824.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages Actual?cese con La Prensa Web - [ Translate this page ] ... las reinas salieron con una hora y media de retraso al paseo tradicional, donde miles de personas esperaron hasta las 11:00 am cuando se iniciaron las mojaderas ... mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2003/ 03/05/hoy/nacionales/897411.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from mensual.prensa.com ] Panamainfo.com ... and goes on until dawn. One Panamanian Carnival tradition are the "mojaderas" or "getting drenched" in water. By fire hose, water ... www.panamainfo.com/ viewArticle.php?seccion=events&id=53&x=2 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages Explore Panama - Panama Canal ... goes on until dawn. One Panamanian Carnival tradition are the "mojaderas" or "getting drenched" in water. Anyone becomes a target ... www.explorepanama.com/interest/carnival/carnivalr.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages ----------------------------------------------------- CHAQUIRAS CHAQUIRAS--861 Google hits, 7 Google Groups hits OED? (OED online has stopped working for me just now.) From HELLO PANAMA, Vol./Issue No. 1 2002, pg. 34, col. 2: Panama's fascinating crafts range from the colorful Molas hand-made by the Kuna Indians, robes, and chaquiras (multicolor bead necklaces) made by the Ngobe Bugle Indians, to Panama hats and the Montuno (typical men's outfit) ceramics, wood and stone carvings, "tagua" sculptures (also known as vegetable ivory), decorative miniature balconies, and "tinajas." (OT: We return to Panama City on Saturday and I return to New York City on Sunday. NOOOOOOOO!!) From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 21 03:51:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:51:13 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo In-Reply-To: <40364012.1967.1EA9A6B@localhost> Message-ID: >The examples I quoted imply that "skiddoo" means the same thing as "23". >Did "23" already commonly have the meaning of "go away" in 1906? "Twenty-three" and "skidoo" [I ignore spelling variation] were synonymous in 1906, as Michael Quinion says. "Skidoo" MAY be derived from "scat"/"scoot"/"skedaddle" + "shoo", I suppose. Before 1906 I cannot find any use of either in this sense (of course my database is incomplete). There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is apparently no "skidoo 23", nor "24 skidoo", nor "23 skedaddle", nor "23 scat", nor "86 skidoo", nor .... My tentative inference is that "23 skidoo" as a fixed combination was the original form, with synonymous "23" and "skidoo" both abbreviated versions. The virtually simultaneous appearance of all three is compatible with this hypothesis. [One or both of "23" and "skidoo" could have existed earlier in this or some related sense, but it looks as though the 1906-and-later usage was derived from the fixed combination.] This does not seem very consistent with the "23" being from "Tale of Two Cities" (I find this [true? false?] folk-etymology as early as May 1906!). My casual speculation is that "23 skidoo" originated in some popular slogan or song or play. I can imagine a magician in a comedy for example saying the nonsense "23 skidoo" as a charm to make things disappear, or to make his flying carpet fly, or whatever. [Around 1900, there was the play "Hindoo Hoodoo", for example, in which an Indian mesmerist projected men's souls here and there: if I had a script available, I'd take a look. Maybe the ending "-doo" was overused (example wild notion only).] -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Feb 21 13:10:47 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:10:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cross-Examination" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cross-examination (OED 1827) 1705-7 _A collection of state tracts, publish'd on occasion of the late revolution in 1688. And during the reign of King William III_ 168 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The said King _James_ ... caused most of the said Writs to be burnt, conveyed away the great Seal, the pretended Prince of _Wales_, the Queen, and divers of the Conspirators in that Intrigue, and Accessories thereunto; to prevent, as is believed, their cross Examination. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 15:16:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:16:13 -0500 Subject: "Police Package" Message-ID: From Saturday's NEW YORK POST, 21 February 2004: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/18498.htm MAYOR MIKE SILENCES THE SIRENS February 21, 2004 -- Driving around in a city-owned car equipped with lights and sirens - known as "the police package" - has long been one of the favorite perks of municipal officials. But it's one of those privileges that isn't really meant to be used - except in an emergency. Unfortunately, one of them got caught doing exactly that - and not during an emergency, either. Which is why Mayor Bloomberg was right to strip more than 250 officials of the souped-up security status. It all came about because a TV news crew caught Carol Robles-Roman, Bloomberg's deputy mayor for legal affairs, routinely using her lights and siren as a means to part traffic. Not only that, her driver was videotaped driving on the shoulders of roads to avoid congestion. The mayor once threatened to "shoot" anyone who was caught using flashing lights and sirens improperly. Luckily for Robles-Roman, he decided such drastic action wasn't necessary. But the mayor - whose own official vehicles rarely use the police package and even wait at traffic lights just like the rest of us - raised a valid point that none of his predecessors seemed to consider: "It is hard to understand why they have to rush to get someplace in order to pass a piece of legislation, file a piece of paper, or whatever." Again, they're for emergencies only - and only for officials whose jobs require them to respond to emergencies. So he stripped the package from 78 percent of those who'd had it. Now that's a government cut to which no one can object. --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. From a Dos Rios menu: CAFE AMERICANO CAFE AMERICANO CON LECHE TROPICOLADA KOALA KOLADA AMAPOLA--I was told this is coconut cream and pineapple juice, like a pina colada HERRADURAS CHICHOS BAR--another "bar" (salad bar, milk bar, et al.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 21 23:05:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:05:13 -0500 Subject: Body Bar; Manguini; Panama Cuisine Postcards Message-ID: Everything--including the Panama national library and most museums--is closed for Carnival (or Carnaval). Sorry--no historical food research. Even the Canal Museum (intended for tourists) is closed on this holiday (promoted for tourists). --------------------------------------------------------------- PANAMA CUISINE POSTCARDS Food postcards are being seen increasingly, from Paris to Ghana. Formerly, it was just animals or women on tourist postcards. The postcards are usually one dish each, with a sumptuous picture and a full recipe on the other side. E-mail me fast if anyone wants any postcards. These 13 were sold at the Marriott Hotel (disa at lewiserv.com): Ropa vieja--Shredded beef Arroz con pollo--Rice with chicken Tortillas de maiz nuevo (changa)--Fresh corn patties Bienmesabe Tasajo--Dry meat Gallo pinto Flan de pixbae--Palm fruit flan Sancocho de gallina--Chicken soup-stew Tamales panamenos--Panamanian tamales Lechon asado Tamal de olla--Tamal cacerole Mamallena--Bread pudding Chicheme --------------------------------------------------------------- MANGUINI This drink is featured today in the local newspaper. It's mango, champagne, and Casal de Gordis. Not many Google hits yet, but there is one from the Food Network. The name appears to be a blend of "mango" and "martini"...There is also a nice newspaper story on "Raspao"--shaved ice. --------------------------------------------------------------- BODY BAR, HYDRATING LOTION There is no soap in my room. Instead, there is a "BODY BAR with essence of lemon and eucalyptus." It's by LORD & MAYFAIR COLLECTION, from the Marietta Corporation in Cortland, NY. There are 50,000 Google hits for "body bar." It must mean something! "Body bar" is not in the OED. Is the "body bar" a soap or a high energy snack? As the old Chevy Chase Saturday Night Live skit goes, is it a floor wax or a dessert topping? There's also "hydrating lotion" (7,500 Google hits, also not in the OED). That contains "apricot kernel oil." Bronx parking ticket judges usually don't smell of lemon, apricot, and eucalyptus. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Feb 22 02:44:53 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:44:53 -0800 Subject: Memes Message-ID: A meme is a quick-moving online phenomenon, now. Sounds like a meme to me... >From the Minneapolis Star Tribune, February 21, 2004 "We're talking about $70 Canadian, which is a little steep," Barefoot said. But he's also swayed by the sheer power of this Internet movement, or meme. "A meme is a..." he paused, searching for layman's terms, "a quick-moving online phenomenon. I love the whole digital democracy thing. And it's a terrific idea." From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 03:16:34 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:16:34 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: Continuing to battle it out, we find in newspaperarchive-- 19 Aug. 1919 _Iowa City Citizen(IA)_ 5/5 A story about Carl Mays being the only "underhanded pitcher of any real class in the major leagues...." As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. <> SC From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Feb 22 03:31:29 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:31:29 -0600 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 In-Reply-To: <200402220317.i1M3H0G28224@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: > As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms = > a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. Bill James' _Historical Baseball Abstract_ says of Carl Mays: "Threw underhand, real hard." This isn't decisive, but James is a Kansas City fan, very fond of Dan Quisenberry, who was a submariner; I would expect him to be precise on this matter. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 03:57:51 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:57:51 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: And, I just found out the answer in a 1922 cite. <> SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 04:13:20 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:13:20 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 Message-ID: I'm not sure it this antedates anything, as I don't know where to find a cite other than this one. 10 Aug. 1922 _Witchita(KS) Daily Times "part 1"/1 < MANGINI + MANGO + CHAMPANGE--25 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit The article in today's newspaper here in Panama called it "Manguini," but here below are some hits for it as "Mangini." It's a play on "Bellini," not "Martini." PANAMA CUISINE POSTCARDS: At tonight's Panama folklore dinner show, some of the same cuisine postcards were sold (as previously posted), but there's another one for "carimanolas" (yucca fritters filled with meat). LATIN AMERICAN FOOD BOOK: This 2003 book is sold at several places: Eating & Drinking in Latin America: A Menu Reader and Restaurant Guide by Andy Herbach (Author), Michael Dillon (Author) It's very helpful, but it's just a long list. No historical citations, no dates, no detailed explanations. It's not a dictionary, but it's a start...The co-author, Andy Herbach, reviewed his own book for Amazon and gave it five stars!! (GOOGLE) Mangini - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... This champagne-mango cocktail is a play on words on the peach-based Bellini, which was ... I like to think of the Mangini as an improvement, and it makes a great ... www.globalgourmet.com/food/holiday/ pageant/cocktails/mangini.html - 8k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Laguna Grille - Drinks & Desserts - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... Made with Raspberry Vodka, Cointreau & Champagne $7.00. MANGINI- An authentic favorite. Made with Absolut Vodka, Champagne & Mango Juice $6.50. ... www.bodeonline.com/lagunagrille/drinks.html - 17k - En cach? - P?ginas similares Naked Fish - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ] ... Cuban Bellini - Champagne and Cruzan Pineapple rum with mango juice, $5.75. Mangini - mango juice and sparkling champagne, $5.00. Tropicana ... www.where-to-dine.com/M/M718.asp - 22k - Resultado Suplementario - En cach? - P?ginas similares (GOOGLE GROUPS) REQUESTS from Thursday, January 27, 2000 ... As of now, are menu is as follows: Reception: - Mangini (mango puree and Champagne) - Tropical Limeade (non-alcoholic) - Ricotta and Vegetable Empanadas (passed ... rec.food.recipes - 29 Ene 2000 por Betty E. Kohler - Ver la conversaci?n (3 art?culos) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 22 04:55:20 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:55:20 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 In-Reply-To: <4037CE31.1347.3CB7452@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:31 PM -0600 2/21/04, Jim Parish wrote: >Sam Clements wrote: >> As a side note, I wonder if Carl wasn't what was called in modern terms = >> a "submarine" pitcher? Did he "really" pitch underhand? I doubt it. > >Bill James' _Historical Baseball Abstract_ says of Carl Mays: "Threw >underhand, real hard." Hard enough to kill--which in fact he did, an Indians infielder named Chapman, if memory serves. (Oh, that's memory of reading about it, in case you were wondering. It's a bit before my time.) Anyway, that was the only instance of a player being killed by a pitch in major league baseball. I seem to recall Mays was never the same after that. (Although that was even more true of Chapman...) >This isn't decisive, but James is a Kansas City >fan, very fond of Dan Quisenberry, who was a submariner; I would >expect him to be precise on this matter. > Yes, I would too. James's HBA (first edition) is pretty reliable to begin with. larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 04:57:25 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:57:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "side arm" (baseball) 1898 Message-ID: OED and M-W both have 1908. Using Newspaperarchive, 28 Feb. 1898 _Ft. Wayne(IN) News page?/4 <> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 22 05:02:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? A. Not only bears, but wolves, too, roamed Manhattan in the 17th century, even after the British took it over from the Netherlands. "Memorial History of the City of New York" (1892), edited by James Grant Wilson, says of the late 1600's: "A dense forest in which deer herded plentifully covered the middle and upper parts of the Island, where a few of the Manhattans lived in almost primitive barbarism. Wolves roamed at large through this wilderness, and committed occasional ravages during the remainder of the century; and bears were not infrequent in their visits to the island, and afforded rare sport to the settlers, as the annals show. "A bear hunt which took place, as late as 1680, in an orchard between the present populous Cedar Street and Maiden Lane, is chronicled by the Rev. Charles Wooley." A different, apocryphal-sounding account, possibly inspired by the same shooting, claims that a freshly killed bear that had crossed the Hudson was displayed by a butcher on the site of what later became the Washington Market in Lower Manhattan. According to this account, that was the origin of the term "bear market," meaning a fall in stock prices, or speculating in anticipation of a fall. Another explanation of the term comes from the Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898), which cited the proverb of "selling the skin before you have caught the bear," and referred to those who entered into contracts in the notorious South Sea bubble in the early 18th century, to transfer stock at a stated price. The DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE was written by Ebenezer Cobham Brewer (1810-1897). I don't know why the 1898 edition was cited; Brewer probably didn't add the entry after his death. OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't help matters. It's wrong. I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 05:10:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:10:33 -0500 Subject: further antedating of "screw ball" 1919 Message-ID: From: "Laurence Horn" > Hard enough to kill--which in fact he did, an Indians infielder named > Chapman, if memory serves. I seem to recall Mays was never the same after > that. (Although that was even more true of Chapman...) Mays went 27-9 the next year, helping the Yanks to a pennant. He was never the same, just better. SC From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 05:26:29 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:26:29 -0500 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:02 AM Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times > From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html > Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't help matters. It's wrong. I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. Barry, I'll give 'em what fer. Sam From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 22 14:45:15 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:45:15 -0500 Subject: Local Yokels (1914) Message-ID: Greetings again from Panama City. I leave the "foreign yokels" for the "local yokels" of New York City later today. A NEW YORK POST movie review of the new Ray Romano-Gene Hackman film WELCOME TO MOOSEPORT mentioned "local yokels." I didn't see that in the OED. HDAS? DARE? Jonathon Green? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 7/21/1930 ...I never send home souvenirs The banners LOCAL YOKELS sell At Drop Inn and The cards.....credited to this paper and also the LOCAL news published herein. tjhehnvean Press.....gasoline taxes, but with a fair return to LOCAL units. On the question of monopoly In.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, July 21, 1930 774 k Nevada State Journal - 3/15/1932 ...to New York the other evening to entice the LOCAL YOKELS (reporters) into giving him some.....the world and settled In Reno to write a book of his travels, says he was deported.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, March 15, 1932 723 k Nevada State Journal - 3/24/1932 ...the counterfeiters who has been swindling LOCAL YOKELS by posing as our assistant. His.....Audubon Societies and wishes the LOCAL >jroup of nature-lovers the best wishes.....of wild life in this ttate and the LOCAL club can do it. The Audubon Society's.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 24, 1932 664 k Nevada State Journal - 2/25/1932 ...end of six months they owe somebody That LOCAL YOKELS no longer say to a gal, "Glad to.....has been no loss of life reported. The LOCAL highway crew did the best they could.....but thanks to the efficient work of the LOCAL crew in pulling them out, no serious.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 25, 1932 744 k Nevada State Journal - 2/18/1932 ...neither of them are Overheard One of the LOCAL YOKELS bothered Miss Ouinan last night.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 18, 1932 689 k Washington Post - 7/19/1914 ...in the history of sport, and this for the LOCAL YOKELS to fight for, and It la by no.....in that business to-day, and otie whaling a book which will appeal to all who at the same.....throw the hook at me catalina ulaml. The LOCAL photographer, that it penetrated the.....are re corded by Mr, Bullen In his book ths forty sailor-men's chanties which he.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, July 19, 1914 716 k Zanesville Signal - 9/2/1928 ...Tsion" of the event get down to some LOCAL YOKEL. Jthen I .we cases: have been.....line, that "Young Love" gathered to await a LOCAL that was several hours overdue. By.....knew that he hacl been "stood up" and for a LOCAL All looked curiously out of eyecorners.....who're you talking to? You know I ain't no LOCAL. I know as much as you do about what.. Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, September 02, 1928 2418 k From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 22 16:52:16 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:52:16 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) Message-ID: A _swirly_ (swirlie, swirley), at least in the US, is a few bigger boys picking on a smaller kid at school and holding him upside down over a toilet and sticking his head in the bowl and flushing. I can find a usenet cite from 1990, but it should be older than that. Nothingprior in our archives, not in OED(that I could find), not in M-W. Not in newpaper archive(that I could find). DARE ends before _Sw_ . No doubt a movie/tv skit from before1990 used this, but I don't remember one. Any help? SC From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 22 17:01:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:01:23 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f964$3a493d30$77601941@sam> Message-ID: >I can find a usenet cite from 1990, but it should be older than >that. Nothingprior in our archives, not in OED(that I could find), not >in M-W. Not in newpaper archive(that I could find). DARE ends before _Sw_ . > >No doubt a movie/tv skit from before1990 used this, but I don't remember one. I don't have any old citations, but maybe the "National Lampoon" or something like that would show it. I'm surprised it's not in the usual dictionaries. I remember it from ca. 1967 myself. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Feb 22 17:49:39 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:49:39 -0600 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: The origin of stock-market "bear" is already well recognized: "bearskin jobber" (shortened to "bear")--someone who would sell the bearskin before having caught the bear, i.e., someone selling something he didn't yet have, i.e., in the stock-market, someone selling a stock he didn't own, i.e., selling short. Selling short is of course done when one expects the price to go down, i.e., one is bearish on the prospects of the stock. For an overall discussion of stock-market "bull" and "bear", see my article "Possible Origin of Stock Market _Bull_ In a Proverb: 'He That Bulls The Cow Must Keep The Calf' (i.e., He's Stuck With Something He Might Not Want." in: _Studies in Slang, part VI_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 24), edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry A. Popik. Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 1999. pp.54-60. Gerald Cohen From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 23 00:46:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:46:33 -0500 Subject: Caesar salad (1934?) Message-ID: Jim Landau posted this back in February, 2002. I've edited to get to the important part. <> I think that this is a reworked version of the words a la the 1950's. The original lines say "Waldorf salad" http://www.ajmackintosh.ukgateway.net/film/YoureTop.txt If this was already noticed, then 'scuse me. SC From slangman at PACBELL.NET Mon Feb 23 02:47:54 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:47:54 -0800 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 Message-ID: For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. His second edition of the Dickson Baseball Dictionary has 1919 for submarine. He is well on his way to a third edition with hundreds of antedatings. Tom Dalzell Sam Clements wrote: >I'm not sure it this antedates anything, as I don't know where to find a >cite other than this one. > >10 Aug. 1922 _Witchita(KS) Daily Times "part 1"/1 > ><Giants was chained up by the underhand giants of Carl Mays, the blonde >submarine pitcher of the Yanks.<< > >Evidently, the term "underhand" in referring to a style of pitch at this >time, was actually a "submariner" or a pitcher who delivered the pitch from >a low, sidearm motion. He was, in no way, throwing a pitch 'underhanded' as >might be delivered in softball. > >SC > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 03:56:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:56:38 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 In-Reply-To: <403969DA.9090605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. His second edition of > the Dickson Baseball Dictionary has 1919 for submarine. He is well on > his way to a third edition with hundreds of antedatings. Here's earlier: 1917 _N.Y. Times_ 15 Sept. 16 (ProQuest) Boston's Submarine Pitcher Gets Four Hits to Win Own Game by 6 to 5 Score. ... Carl Mays, the pitcher of the submarine ball, had a lot to do with beating the Yanks. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 03:57:29 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:57:29 -0500 Subject: "submarine pitcher"(baseball) 1922 In-Reply-To: <403969DA.9090605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > For baseball terms, first stop is Paul Dickson. I'd say for baseball terms, the first stop should be ProQuest or Newspaperarchive. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 02:50:58 2004 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:50:58 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo Message-ID: For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could provide, onlist or offlist. Thanks! David From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Feb 23 05:08:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:08:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) Message-ID: 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 <> From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Feb 23 07:01:43 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:01:43 -0800 Subject: "Bear market" in NY Times Message-ID: Gerald may have covered this in his Forum Anglicum article, but the fable about the man who sold the bearskin before catching the bear is originally from Aesop, I think, and occurs in slightly different bestial dress in Henry V, when the French emissary comes to the king on the eve of the battle of Agincourt to demand the English surrender. Not so fast, says Henry; and then reminds the emissary: The man that once did sell the lion's skin While the beast lived, was killed with hunting him. Geoff Nunberg > From Sunday's "City" section of the NEW YORK TIMES: > >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/nyregion/22fyi.html >Q. With all the talk about bears encroaching on the New Jersey and >northern suburbs, when was the last time a bear roamed in Manhattan? > >A. Not only bears, but wolves, too, roamed Manhattan in the 17th >century, even after the British took it over from the Netherlands. > >"Memorial History of the City of New York" (1892), edited by James >Grant Wilson, says of the late 1600's: "A dense forest in which deer >herded plentifully covered the middle and upper parts of the Island, >where a few of the Manhattans lived in almost primitive barbarism. >Wolves roamed at large through this wilderness, and committed >occasional ravages during the remainder of the century; and bears >were not infrequent in their visits to the island, and afforded rare >sport to the settlers, as the annals show. > >"A bear hunt which took place, as late as 1680, in an orchard >between the present populous Cedar Street and Maiden Lane, is >chronicled by the Rev. Charles Wooley." > >A different, apocryphal-sounding account, possibly inspired by the >same shooting, claims that a freshly killed bear that had crossed >the Hudson was displayed by a butcher on the site of what later >became the Washington Market in Lower Manhattan. According to this >account, that was the origin of the term "bear market," meaning a >fall in stock prices, or speculating in anticipation of a fall. > >Another explanation of the term comes from the Dictionary of Phrase >and Fable (1898), which cited the proverb of "selling the skin >before you have caught the bear," and referred to those who entered >into contracts in the notorious South Sea bubble in the early 18th >century, to transfer stock at a stated price. > > > The DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE was written by Ebenezer Cobham >Brewer (1810-1897). I don't know why the 1898 edition was cited; >Brewer probably didn't add the entry after his death. > OED has 1709 and 1714 citations for "bear." Both are from >England. The New York Stock Exchange did not exist at this time. >Saying that this "bear" is an "apocryphal-sounding account" doesn't >help matters. It's wrong. > I give up on the NEW YORK TIMES. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 08:10:43 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:10:43 EST Subject: Hamburger Steak Sandwich (1895); Caesar Salad (1946); Manhattan Clam Chowder Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MANHATTAN CLAM CHOWDER Waiting for me in the mail was the March 2004 GOURMET. On the cover is: "COLLECTOR'S EDITION--NEW YORK." Collector's edition? No library gets GOURMET? TIME OUT NEW YORK has been publishing an EATING AND DRINKING GUIDE for several years. Robert Sietsema of the VILLAGE VOICE has published much on Cheap Eats. Chowhound.com's Jim Leff has a book on NYC food. There's not a whole lot of uncharted territory to do here--except for my work that no one knows about. This "collector's edition" is a real mishmash. There's a long article on Mexican food--a growing presence--but classics like pizza and bagels and egg creams are nowhere. This is the most extended lexical/historical blurb, and it's wrong. Pg. 160: MANHATTAN CLAM CHOWDER Treat yourself to fresh clams for this recipe--they make all the difference. This dish originated in Rhode Island during the late 19th century, when, as story has it, Portuguese immigrants added tomatoes to their chowder. British New Englanders believed their creamy chowder to be superior and named the Portuguese version after Manhattan, presuming that New Yorkers were the only people crazy enough to add tomatoes. (The dish was also called "Coney Island Clam Chowder," and not because it originated in Rhode Island. Oy. My plane shoulda crashed--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CAESAR SALAD Sam Clements has noticed this 1946 "Caesar salad," from Newspaperarchive.com. I can't open up the article on this computer. I tried my Ancestry.com subscription, but Ancestgry says it has this publication only until 1943....It's a month or two earlier than what's been posted. Yes, I'd posted that the original Cole Porter "You're the Top" lyrics mention a "Waldorf" salad. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mansfield News Journal - 8/2/1946 ...stint. The big food rage in Hollywood the CAESAR SALAD will be Introduced to New.. Mansfield, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1946 697 k ---------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAMBURGER STEAK SANDWICH The hamburger is an important sandwich. Here's another 1890s citation, FWIW. The HAWAIIAN GAZETTE is a new addition to the Newspaperarchive database. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Hawaiian Gazette - 10/29/1895 ...poultry, corned beef, veal, sausage, HAMBURGER STEAK (raw or kidneys, lamb, raw.....or plain bread and butter or ou raw-beef SANDWICHES What Our Neighbors Say. V That.....shape are popular forms. These artistic SANDWICHES must Dot lose their freshness.....napkio over the plate of prettily piled SANDWICHES. Besides the possibility of.. Honolulu, Hawaii Tuesday, October 29, 1895 607 k (ANCESTRY.COM) 29 October 1895, HAWAIIAN GAZETTE (Honolulu, Hawaii). pg. 7, col. 1: For the differentiation of the sandwich I suggest the following materials: THE STAPLE, BREAD.--White, graham, black or rye, whole wheat, Boston brown bread; biscuits, rolls, scones; wafers, crackers, saltines; dry toast; gingerbread toasted and buttered. THE FILLING, _meats_.--Ham, tongue, poultry, corned beef, veal, sausage, Hamburger steak (raw or cooked), kidneys, lamb, raw scraped beef (salted, excellent for invalids and dyspeptics). (...) A word as to style, a prime factor in the success of the sandwich. With the exception of boiled ham, chicken, turkey, sardines and raw oysters, the meats and fish should always be chopped or pounded, as they can thus be seasoned with more variety. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 09:02:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:02:19 EST Subject: AOS (All Options Suck) Message-ID: The financial columnist Christopher Byron in today's (Monday's) NEW YORK POST uses "AOS (All Options Suck)." The term is not in the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF SLANG or in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. It's not a comment on stock options; Byron says it's a military phrase. Maybe Dave Wilton has heard of it? http://www.nypost.com/business/18678.htm Add it all up and for Martha Stewart it's what they call in the military an "AOS" situation (as in "all options suck") - and the hour is now at hand. One way or the other, this case is heading for the jury, and closing arguments could begin as soon as the end of this week. * Please send e-mail to: cbyron at nypost.com (GOOGLE) UrbanDictionary.com/aos ... All Options Suck - None of the possible choices or outcomes are desirable. We can spend Christmas at your parents or at my parents? That's an AOS scenario if I ... www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=aos - 8k - Cached - Similar pages Foreword: The war against terrorism and the transformation of the ... ... for energy supply security. One speaker wryly commented that this was a case of AOS ? all options suck. A realistic view, it was ... www.iiss.org/eusec/heisbourg1a.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages uncuTonline.com: News Archive ... In sadder news, I've confirmed with Ben that our friends All Options Suck are done for now. It's sad to see AOS go, but I trust we'll see them each back in ... www.uncutonline.com/news/feb_03.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages Rash Weblog of October 2001 ... AOS. In my NASA console days, this meant Acquisition Of Signal, with the Loss Of... counterpart in LOS; but this new one's from the military: All Options Suck. ... www.wunderland.com/WTS/Rash/white/2.htm - 34k - Cached - Similar pages I'm left black and blue... broken. ... Suck and One Step Behind. They play an interesting mix of screamo and punk. We knew two of them from when we went to Reno, and then back when they were in AOS. ... uncutchick16.diaryland.com/030717_80.html - 14k - Supplemental Result (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: List of Muslim countries We've run out of options here. We've tried diplomacy (for a month) ) The US military have a term for this, "AOS." All Options Suck. ... alt.games.baldurs-gate - Oct 16, 2001 by David Lloyd-Jones - View Thread (559 articles) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 09:22:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:22:32 EST Subject: AOS (All Options Suck) (or, Stink) Message-ID: Sorry, but it's "stink" as well as "suck." I don't know which came first. (WORDSPY) AOS abbreviation. All options stink; a situation in which there is no optimum or ideal course of action. Example Citation: "A new acronym has crept into the jargon-cluttered world of Washington. AOS. All Options Stink. It's a fair summary of the dilemmas facing George W Bush." ?Kate Ironside, "Why Bush has limited options for retaliation," Western Morning News, October 3, 2001 Notes: As the earliest citation shows, today's word is a brand new addition to the civilian lexicon, but it appears to have had prior use in military circles. Earliest Citation: "The question of how to battle terrorists in their remote and rocky Afghan havens has perplexed military planners in both the Clinton and Bush administrati ons, some of whom share a darkly comic answer when asked about the war plan. 'It's called AOS,' they say, using a barracks abbreviation for 'all options stink.'" ?"U.S. forces amassing, awaiting strike orders," New York Times News Service, September 30, 2001 Subject Categories: Language - Acronyms and Abbreviations The World - Military Posted on October 15, 2001 From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Feb 23 13:24:55 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:24:55 -0000 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Minor antedate: 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a boy?s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp Those who remember Lindsay Anderson's movie _If_ (1968) may recall that one hapless boy is given just such a torture and those of us who had the dubious pleasure of attending all too similar establishments recall the activity - but as for a UK name? Nothing springs to mind. Jonathon Green From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 23 14:30:44 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:30:44 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f9cb$1f0deef0$77601941@sam> Message-ID: The character "Schl?mil" is in Offenbach's "Contes d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 (composition finished in 1880). Schl?mil is certainly a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as deliberatly and aptly chosen. Offenbach probably spoke or was at least familiar with Yiddish. So far, the date of the English and American premiers, which may or may not lead to an antedating, have eluded me. --- Sam Clements wrote: > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > < peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what his > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 23 14:41:52 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:41:52 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <20040223143044.49769.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Note: Schl?mil is spelled Schemil in some versions of "Contes..." --- James Smith wrote: > The character "Schl?mil" is in Offenbach's "Contes > d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 > (composition finished in 1880). Schl?mil is > certainly > a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as > deliberatly and aptly chosen. Offenbach probably > spoke or was at least familiar with Yiddish. So > far, > the date of the English and American premiers, which > may or may not lead to an antedating, have eluded > me. > > --- Sam Clements wrote: > > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > > > < > peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what > his > > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches > anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will > be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act > quickly and decisively > |or slowly and > cautiously. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 15:32:19 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:32:19 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 01:24:55PM -0000, Jonathon Green wrote: > Minor antedate: > > 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a > boy???s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was > learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp The HDAS files have a 1977 example of this. Jesse Sheidlower From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Feb 23 15:34:14 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Your Name) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:34:14 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, ... Ditto here for the "as ADJ of a N as". (That sort of split in awareness is pretty common, isn't it? Who would say "I could care less" to mean "I couldn't care less" if he were paying the least bit of attention?) The "too ADJ of a N" comes rather easily, so I guess I have heard it a lot, tho if I caught myself saying or writing it I would drop the "of", e.g., "he's too nice (of) a guy to do that". Se?n Fitzpatrick (Grew up in Chevy Chase, MD in the '50s) From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Feb 23 15:46:31 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:46:31 -0800 Subject: Neck of the woods Message-ID: I know 'neck of land,' as in "The narrow neck of land between Columbia and Costa Rica is called Panama." I'm sure you know that, too. fritz >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 02/20/04 04:49PM >>> A member of our English dept. recently asked me about this expression, and now it's driving me crazy. I've poked around in various dictionaries, and several of them have "neck of the woods" as an entry and an 1839 first occurrence, but none hazards an explanation of its derivation. If there's a sense of "neck" that denotes "part" or "area" in any expression but this one, I've missed it. Extending the meaning of "woods" to mean something like "neighborhood" is transparent enough, but I can't figure out how "neck" could ever have been chosen to designate a part of a forest. Perhaps I'm failing to see the forest for the trees. Can anybody shed light on the origins of this expression? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 15:50:38 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: swirly(1990) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1987 Gary A. Fine _With the Boys_ 173: The idea of a _swirly_ - sticking a > boy???s head in a toilet (either clean or unflushed) and flushing - was > learned by some [...] youngsters attending a summer hockey camp Here's slightly earlier: The Washington Post November 23, 1986, Sunday, Final Edition SECTION: WASHINGTON POST MAGAZINE; PAGE W11; OUT THERE HEADLINE: Grade-School Adventures of a Real Turkey BYLINE: Alex Heard BODY: ... pang of doubt. "Hey, my mother is out there, waiting for this canoe number." I might have turned back had Fate not sent three burly sixth-graders through the door at that moment. "Swirly!" they cried as they tore away my canoe and grabbed my ankles. "Swirly!" they screamed, lowering me head first into the thundering toilet. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:00:51 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <000801c3f9cb$1f0deef0$77601941@sam> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 > > < Schlemiel. No matter what his opportunities he was sure to have ill > luck. >> Here is what appears to be an earlier usage: 1870 _Hours at Home_ July 290 (American Periodical Series) Some of the stories have the zest of novelty and quaintness. That of "Anschel, the Schlemiel," for instance, is exceedingly clever. [This points to prior use: "But the most characteristic volume of Jewish stories which has lately appeared is that entitled _Friday Night: a Selection of Tales Illustrating Hebrew Life_. These stories had already appeared in the _Jewish Messenger_, of this city; some of them are translations and adaptations, others original."] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:17:04 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:17:04 -0500 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <20040223143044.49769.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:30 AM -0800 2/23/04, James Smith wrote: >The character "Schl?mil" is in Offenbach's "Contes >d"Hoffman" that premiered in Paris in 1881 >(composition finished in 1880). Schl?mil is certainly >a schlimiel, and I've always considered the name as >deliberatly and aptly chosen. I wondered about that too when I saw it. >--- Sam Clements wrote: >> 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 >> >> <> peculiarly unlucky a Schlemiel. No matter what his > > opportunities he was sure to have ill luck. >> > Is "ancient Israelites" a joke here? Somehow "shlemihl" (like "shlemozzle", "shmendrik", etc.) always struck me as a relatively modern Yiddishism and not a Biblical term. Or is Abel described as the first shlemihl in the Hebrew Pentateuch? L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:19:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:19:45 -0500 Subject: as ADJ of a N as In-Reply-To: <20040223153414.FUWY25581.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: At 10:34 AM -0500 2/23/04, Your Name wrote: >On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>I think Arnold is right about the split in attitudes toward this >>usage. I've never used the "of a" structure and don't like it, ... > >Ditto here for the "as ADJ of a N as". (That sort of split in >awareness is pretty common, isn't it? Who would say "I could care >less" to mean "I couldn't care less" if he were paying the least bit >of attention?) I would, actually. I also sometimes say "That was brilliant" to mean "That was idiotic" or "another beautiful day" to mean "lousy weather". I know, I'm just perverse. >Se?n Fitzpatrick >(Grew up in Chevy Chase, MD in the '50s) Larry Horn (grew up in NYC in the 50s) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 16:28:22 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:28:22 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo In-Reply-To: <001a01c3f9c8$74d69060$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: >For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some >authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World >Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific >cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into >such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could >provide, onlist or offlist. > >Thanks! > >David That was the one in which Babe Adams, Pirate rookie pitcher and the original "Babe", won three games, if memory serves. Sorry, can't remember the cheers. "I got you, Babe!" seems unlikely. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Feb 23 17:43:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:43:28 EST Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo; Schliemiel Message-ID: SCHLIEMIEL--This isn't in the old ADS-L archives? The character of Peter Schliemiel was used in a play, about 1819. It's famous. 1909 WORLD SERIES LINGO--Just buy a subscription to www.paperofrecord.com, click on THE SPORTING NEWS, and read over the 1909 World Series accounts. The magazine BASEBALL started about 1909, and in the first year or so contained an article on baseball slang. I think Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY mentions the article in his bibliography. From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Feb 23 17:53:20 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:53:20 -0800 Subject: "word" Message-ID: Dear linguists: As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you could cllarify this for me. Thanks. Jerome Foster From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Feb 23 18:09:47 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:09:47 +0000 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It means, approximately, "that's the truth" or "that's real/genuine". Then there's also "word up". Clarence Major (from Juba to Jive) has that as 'call for attention; used as an expression of one's word of honor". And then there's "word to your mother", which is defined on urbandictionary.com as: 1) I fully agree with you, you nicely brought up fellow 2) Say hellow to your sexy milf 3) I'm a white boy in need of a cool sounding motto. The last is undoubtedly directed to Vanilla Ice, who had the phrase in his song "Ice, Ice Baby" (or whatever the name of it was). "Word Up" was the title of a hit single by Cameo in 1988 (which has now infested my brain for the rest of the evening. Lynne --On Monday, February 23, 2004 9:53 am -0800 Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: "word" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dear linguists: > > As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a = > nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage = > that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in = > the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I = > guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's = > Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. = > Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand = > it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you = > could cllarify this for me. > > Thanks. > > Jerome Foster Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Feb 23 18:29:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:29:37 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: <00da01c3fa35$ecf4c220$0400a8c0@WBJF> Message-ID: At 09:53 AM 2/23/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Dear linguists: > >As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a >nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage >that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in >the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I >guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's Doonesbury >strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. Times aritcle >on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand it from the >context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you could cllarify >this for me. > >Thanks. > >Jerome Foster Cameo's 1986 song Word Up! was my first introduction to it. Shortened from there to just Word! I always thought it was slang for saying Hi essentially, like What's up? But I'm about as wonder bread as they come. "Word up everybody says When you hear the call you?ve got to get it underway Word up it?s the code word No matter where you say it you know that you?ll be heard....." Kathleen E. Miller News Assistant The New York Times From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Feb 23 19:32:57 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:32:57 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll double-check the date, but I think the German romantic Adalbert von Chamisso published his Peter Schlemihls wundersame Geschichte in 1814. Peter Mc. --On Monday, February 23, 2004 11:00 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >> 14 Oct. 1889 _Sandusky Daily Register_ 2/2 >> >> <> Schlemiel. No matter what his opportunities he was sure to have ill >> luck. >> > > Here is what appears to be an earlier usage: > > 1870 _Hours at Home_ July 290 (American Periodical Series) Some of the > stories have the zest of novelty and quaintness. That of "Anschel, the > Schlemiel," for instance, is exceedingly clever. > > [This points to prior use: "But the most characteristic volume of Jewish > stories which has lately appeared is that entitled _Friday Night: a > Selection of Tales Illustrating Hebrew Life_. These stories had already > appeared in the _Jewish Messenger_, of this city; some of them are > translations and adaptations, others original."] > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 23 19:36:55 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:36:55 -0700 Subject: "word" Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Feb 23 20:29:37 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:29:37 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Below is one of the more interesting questions sent to the ADS web site. Please respond to the original sender, and to the list. Note that I already forwarded her the OED's earliest cite for "straight=not gay," although perhaps someone can do better (and with the whole history of "homosexual" and "lesbian" mess). Also, the citations in HDAS for fag, etc., seem mostly to be from outsiders. The request below is looking for insider terms. They may very well be the same, but I don't have anything here which convinces me. Sally, sissy, girl, nanny, nance, nancy, nancy-boy, sill, gunsel, brownie, fag, faggot, sissy, fairy, pansy, lily? Grant ............. Dear Sirs and Madams, I found your site via a link at the site of Oxfor University press and I hope someone of you might be able to help me with a somewhat weird etymological question (or at least tell me where I could get some help with respect to it). Currently, I am working on a translation of a story settled in 1930ies USA (Cleveland, to be precise), which was originally written in German, from German to English. One problem with this rather obcure task is that I am no native speaker, but of German origin, but the main problem is that all 'slang' and colloquial terms that supposedly should be used are not only 'slang' but also dated. The second problem is that bilingual dictionaries normally only give very tame translations for colourful expressions. Anyway: What I desperately need to know is, and I hope that this does not ask too much of you in terms of what is appropriate, is what, in the 1920ies or 1930ies a male and a female homosexual, respectively, would have called themselves. I learned that the word 'homosexual' was introduced to the English language in then 1910, while 'lesbian' and 'heterosexual' came up in the 1920ies, but all these terms strike me as sounding rather abstract and artificial. Was there any word of that time that was used like 'gay' is used today, any euphemistic phrase (of which I know quite a lot in Germany but that does not help me an inch, unfotunately), or any informal phrase homsexuals of either gender would have called themselves in the US? Second: Is there any hint when the word 'straight' as synonym for 'heterosexual' was introduced? I'd be absolutely grateful for any help with this dilemma, and sincerely ask your apologies if you are not the correct adress for requests like this one. Thank you for your efforts, Yours gratefully Margit Ritzka Margit Ritzka Schwertgesweg 16 40670 Meerbusch-Osterath Tel. 0049 2159 678 633 e mail: margit at blotter.de From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Feb 23 21:37:23 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:37:23 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? Message-ID: A book entitled The Homosexual in America by Donald Webster Cory (1951) states: The word [gay, used of a homosexual] made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalysts have informed me that their homosexual patients were calling themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in every corner of the United States where homosexuals might gather.... pp. 107-08 Unfortunately, as far as I know, no citation has been turned up from the pornographic literature of the period immediately following World War I to support Cory's claim. The earliest docmented use of the adjective "gay" in the "homosexual" sense, as reported in the OED, occurs in the word "geycat" (meaning "a homosexual boy"), and is taken from a 1935 collection of prison and underworld slang. As far as some of the other terms for homosexuals are concerned, "queer" is attested from the 1920s, but not in self-referential contexts and almost always with a strongly negative connotation (until very recently, of course). "Pederast" and "Sapphist" certainly existed during the 1920s -- in fact, both are recorded in the writings of Bloomsbury circle members, who presumably weren't intolerant of homosexuality -- but they do not seem to have been used in a particularly self-referential way. "Sodomite" and "Sodomist" are entered in the Century Dictionary of 1891 (the former being attested many centuries before), but the definition, "persons guilty of unnatural sex," obviously carries a negative, "outsider's" connotation. A strong sense of disparagement also appears to have been intended for early (1930s) uses of "dyke," "bulldyke," and its variants. It might be worth checking Vito Russo's The Celluloid Closet, which deals with the representation of homosexuality in film from early in the history of the genre, to see what anecdotal evidence might be given there. Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 23 22:02:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:02:09 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo In-Reply-To: <200402230453.i1N4r6p02867@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, davemarc wrote: > For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some > authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World > Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific > cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into > such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could > provide, onlist or offlist. This is the World Series during which Ty Cobb is supposed to have called Honus Wagner a "krauthead," although I think there is a lack of documentation for the authenticity of this story. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Feb 23 23:06:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:06:19 -0800 Subject: Antedating of schliemiel (1889) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077535977@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Oops! Just in case anybody cares, that should be "Adelbert." PMc --On Monday, February 23, 2004 11:32 AM -0800 "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > I'll double-check the date, but I think the German romantic Adalbert von > Chamisso published his Peter Schlemihls wundersame Geschichte in 1814. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Feb 23 23:31:06 2004 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:31:06 -0500 Subject: Black Coffee with Sugar In-Reply-To: <010b01c3f520$d63a9d30$2eab8e8c@Barrett> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Does anyone say black coffee to mean with sugar? To me, it doesn't, but whenever I ask for black coffee here in Boston, I invariably get asked if I want sugar in it. I didn't have this problem in Chicago. (On a related note, in a proper Chicago hot dog establishment, ordering a hot dog with everything properly excludes ketchup. Out here, you ask for everything, you get ketchup, too. Bleh.) -- Steve From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 00:43:58 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: Peaches & Cream (1870); Cesar Cardini (1956); There goes the neighborhood! (1966) Message-ID: CESAR CARDINI More "Caesar salad," from Proquest's LOS ANGELES TIMES (now almost through December 1957): (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Obituary 2 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 7, 1956. p. B8 (1 page): _Cesare Cardini_ Funeral services for Cesare Cardini, 60, creator of Cesare salad, will be conducted today at 2:30 p.m. in Pierce Bros. Beverly Hills Chapel, followed by interment in Inglewood Park Cemetery. 2. Cesar Cardini, Creator of Salad, Dies at 60 Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 5, 1956. p. 31 (1 page): Cesar Cardini, 60, credited with the invention of the Cesar salad, died Saturday night in Good Samaritan Hospital following a stroke at his home, 8738 Bonner Drive. Mr. Cardini devised the salad while operating the restaurant and hotel which still bears his name in Tijuana. Since 1935 he had lived in Los Angeles and was active in the marketing of the salad dressing he concocted. He was born in Lago Maggiore, Italy, worked in many European hotels an came to the United States when he was 20. For a time, before going to Tijuana, he owned a restaurant in Sacramento. He leaves his widow Camille, a daughter Rosa of the Los Angeles address, two sisters, Maria and Carlotta of Italy, and two brothers, Alex and Caudencio, who are in the restaurant business in Mexico City. Funeral services are pending with Pierce Bros., Beverly Hills. --------------------------------------------------------------- PEACHES AND CREAM PEACHES AND CREAM--44,100 Google hits, 7,740 Google Groups hits You come on like a dream, peaches and cream Lips like strawberry wine You're sixteen, you're beautiful and you're mine. ---Ringo Starr, "You're Sixteen" (1974) (He was 34--ed.) I had a delicious strawberries and cream while in Panama. Peaches are also important there; I had peach ice cream at Nikko's. OED has "peaches and cream," as in a complexion, from 1901 George Ade. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)(The first citation is also on MAKING OF AMERICA-CORNELL--ed.) 1. THE OVERSOUL OF MANSE ROSEBURGH. The Galaxy. A Magazine of Entertaining Reading (1866-1878). New York: Feb 1870. Vol. VOL. IX., Iss. No. 2.; p. 214 (18 pages) Second page: "She's just peaches and cream," said Rosenburgh, as he stared at the lily and rose complexion, the blue eyes and golden hair. "I should like to take a spoon and eat her." 2. TWO COUSINS. BY KATHERINE F. WILLIAMS.. Peterson's Magazine (1849-1892). Philadelphia: Jun 1878. Vol. VOL. LXXIII., Iss. No. 6.; p. 426 (5 pages) First page: Her complexion certainly was better. There was no question of pink and white, it is true, but the dusky, muddy look was clearing away. As it did so, one observed how delicate was the tracery of her eyebrows, how full and smooth were her temples. Her lips, too, grew as scarlet as ripe barberries. But the great charm was her magnificent coloring. It was not that of milk and roses; say, rather, of peaches and cream. 3. BOTH BEWITCHED; A Philadelphia Woman is Mesmerized by a Villain and Falls Under his Influence. ANOTHER CASE. That of a Pennsylvania Girl Who Runs Off With Her Father's Colored Coachman. UNACCOUNTABLE FOLLY. The National Police Gazette (1845-1906). New York: Jun 11, 1887. Vol. VOLUME L., Iss. No. 508.; p. 6 (1 page) : Our Philadelphia correspondent, May 21, says: Mary Emily Babbington, a voluptuous little blonde, with large blue eyes and a complexion all peaches and cream, applied to Lawyer William P. Swope for legal advice. 4. --How She was Groomed--; -From "Acquired Beauty"-- Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: Feb 1890. Vol. VOL. IV, Iss. No. 2.; p. 117 (1 page): ...I walked to the long mirror in the drawing-room and, behold! a radiant, bright-eyed creature with youthful curves of face and head and shoulders, with a seventeen-inch waist and a complexion of peaches and cream burst upon my sight. 5. FOR WOMAN'S WEAR EDITED BY MRS MALLON. The Ladies' Home Journal (1889-1907). Philadelphia: Aug 1890. Vol. Vol. VII,, Iss. No. 9; p. 17 (1 page): A scarlet one gives a glow to a pale face, a blue one gives a rather cold look, a white one brings out all the color, a mauve one is rather trying to anybody who has not peaches and cream in the way of a complexion,... 6. HUGABLE, KISSABLE GIRLS. The National Police Gazette (1845-1906). New York: Aug 30, 1890. Vol. VOLUME LVI., Iss. No.677.; p. 2 (1 page): Their complexions are of the peaches and cream hue, their limbs fully developed, they are full of sap, and the sight of a city mash makes them quiver and nearly sets them wild. --------------------------------------------------------------- THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD! THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD--36,800 Google hits, 12,100 Google Groups hits. I was looking at the American Airlines "Sky Mall" catalog (www.skymall.com). There was an ad for a "Sonic Mole Chaser." The mole took one look at the thing and declared, "There goes the neighborhood!" I remember the 1960s Columbus cartoon, but I forget where it comes from. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Santa Maria Discovers Southwest By Richard Corrigan Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 25, 1966. p. B1 (1 page): "Go back, we don't want to be discovered." "Well, there goes the neighborhood." 2. Flying Colors; Do We Want Little Green Men Moving in Next Door? By Art Buchwald. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 3, 1966. p. E7 (1 page): WHEN THE flying saucers were sighted over Ann Arbor, Mich. recently, the first reaction from one of the residents was "Dammit, there goes the neighborhood." 3. Johnson Assails GOP 'Panic-Mongers'; President Campaigns for His Party Before Enthusiastic Crowds By Carroll Kilpatrick Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 13, 1966. p. A1 (2 pages): Pg. A15, Col. 1: "That sad point is made by an old joke of the day," Mr. Johnson said. "When two Indians saw the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria sailing toward their shore, one groaned: 'Oh, Lord. There goes the neighborhood.'" From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:23:14 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:23:14 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: >I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly professors. Bethany U of TN From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:35:14 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:35:14 -0600 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: <200402240123.i1O1NFX32506@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly > professors. Both phrases - "word" and "my bad" - are in fairly frequent use in at least one online forum - the Television Without Pity boards (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/), which specialize in rather sardonic commentary on various television shows. Jim Parish From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 01:42:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:42:04 -0500 Subject: Monkey Bread (1946, 1957); OUP Encyclopedia Message-ID: MONKEY BREAD--26,800 Google hits, 743 Google Groups hits (most are for the bread, not the baobab tree) MONKEY BREAD + NANCY REAGAN--37 Google hits "Monkey bread" was cited here before, but here are the latest cites in ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES. Nancy Reagan baked "monkey bread," but did not invent it. OED has "monkey bread" from the "monkey bread tree" (baobab--I saw many of these in West Africa last month), but did not choose to have an entry for this bread...I dropped off some Guanabana marmalade and Panama cookbooks at the Bonny Slotnick used cookbook store nearest NYU. She said that Andy Smith is working on "bread." Hope this helps. For anyone's information: http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html February 13, 2004 In this issue: Save OUP Encyclopedia launch date. The Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, to be published this fall by Oxford University Press in the US, will be launched with festivity in October. If you have been following the progress of this tome in these pages, you know that Andy Smith is the Editor-in-Chief, and that yours truly and many of our friends and associates are contributors. I don't have a lot of details yet, but there are several events planned and one is on October 16 at the National Museum of American History, (Smithsonian) in Washington, DC, with a symposium and some other events. Andy says, "We have a general outline of the program -- In addition to a few speakers, we will have two major panels: What is American Food? and What is American Drink?" Panelists have not yet been selected. But you can still put that date on your calendar. As soon as Andy sends more information, I will post it here. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Caller Ask for Recipes on Turkey, Bread, Grapes Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 26, 1957. p. A5 (1 page): Here are the three most-asked-for recipes: turkey Marco Polo, monkey bread and frosted grapes. (...) _Rich, Buttery Dough_ Monkey bread, so popular with the ladies at luncheon, is a rich, buttery bread. Serve it with your favorite jam or preserve for a breakfast treat or at tea time, too. (...) _MONKEY BREAD_ 1 1/2 cakes, yeast 1 cup lukewarm milk 1 tablespoon sugar 1/2 cup butter or margarine, melted 1 teaspoon salt 3 1/2 cups sifted enriched flour Melted butter or margarine. METHOD: Dissolve yeast in lukewarm milk. Add sugar 1/2 cup melted butter, salt and flour. Beat well. Place in large greased bowl, cover with clean cloth and let rise until doubled in bulk. Knock down and roll out on floured board very thin. Cut dough in diamond-shaped pieces. Dip each piece in melted butter and arrange in a ring mold until mold is half filled. Let rise until it reaches the top of the pan. Bake at 400 deg. until golden brown. Turn out on a round plate and let guests break off pieces. This makes a rich bread. 2. CONFIDENTIALLY LUCILLE LEIMERT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 1, 1946. p. A5 (1 page): _SURE CURE_--Helen Weigel Brown, New York career girl visiting in Los Angeles, is as cool as a cucumber and nothing seems to ruffle her. But it wasn't always that way and Helen admits it. SHe used to be a quaking mass of nerves till she cured herself, and you'd never guess how! By making bread--raisin bread, monkey bread, rye bread, egg bread! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 24 01:59:35 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:59:35 -0600 Subject: Antedating of schlemiel (1889) Message-ID: This is in reference to the ads-l antedating of "shlemiel" to the early 19th century. ---- Here are a few references on "shlemiel" 1) In _Studies in Slang, part 1_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 14/1), edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen, (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang), 1985: NATHAN S?SSKIND (and very secondarily GERALD COHEN): "Origin of _shlemiel_ 'simpleton, unlucky bungler'-- pp. 71-84 a) "Nathan S?sskind's treatment in Copeland-S?sskind 1976"....page 71 b) "N. S?sskind, Gerald Cohen: Further thoughts on _shlemiehl_"......page 78 2)In _Studies in Slang, part 3_ (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 20, edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen (Peter Lang: Frankfurt a.M.), 1993: Gerald Cohen: "More on _shlemiel_", pp. 156-159. The origins of "shlemiel" go back well beyond the 19th century, to a Talmudic story involving Zimri (identified with Shelumiel in the Talmud), who got himself into a first-class pickle and was slain by Pinehas. Modesty precludes me from going into further detail here, but S?sskind has it all spelled out. Btw, the late Nathan S?sskind was Professor Emeritus of German and Jewish Studies (City College, NYC) when I first met him in the 1980s. I was startled to see that he had a variety of manuscripts in various stages of completion but had resigned himself to not publishing any more. I quickly realized that circumstances had presented me with an important task for the scholarly community, namely encouraging him to complete his unfinished work and publishing it. His items appeared in my series of working papers _Comments on Etymology_, primarily in a supplement I started for him, _Comments on Judaism_. I later compiled the most important ones in my _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_ (vol. 2; 1991). Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla From douglas at NB.NET Tue Feb 24 04:34:30 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:34:30 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? In-Reply-To: <403A2C43.19808.190BA0C@localhost> Message-ID: >The earliest documented use of the adjective "gay" in the "homosexual" >sense, as reported in the OED, occurs in the word "geycat" (meaning "a >homosexual boy"), and is taken from a 1935 collection of prison and >underworld slang. But "gayboy" = "homosexual man" appears (HDAS) to date from 1903 ... and even without that early citation "gay boy" would be natural by analogy to (apparently very prevalent) 19th century "gay girl" meaning "prostitute" (still so used in South Asia). Given "gay boy" = "male prostitute" (the narrowest analogy), extension to "homosexual man" in mainstream use would be certain IMHO, and if "gay boy" = "homosexual man" then I think immediate "gay" = "homosexual" is a cinch. Just a plausibility argument. I suspect that "gaycat" assumed its homosexual implication (to the extent that it had any) from "gay" rather than the other way around: "gaycat" basically meant "amateur tramp" originally AFAIK (whence?), and only later "sidekick"/"possible catamite". -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Feb 24 05:02:22 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:02:22 -0500 Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS "gay boy" from 1904. So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. But the interesting part was the actual quote: 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am I just misreading this cite? SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 05:53:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:53:56 -0800 Subject: troublesome line division Message-ID: from our own paul mcfedries's Word Spy book (2004), p. 190: ...The use of the term was possibly inspired by the semi- otician Umberto Eco's 1967 essay... line divisions courtesy of the editors, or (more likely) their word-processing programs. what i want to know is: just how close did umberto eco come to being an otician? arnold "can you hear me now" zwicky at csli.stanford.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 07:46:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:46:09 EST Subject: Life "as we know it" (1926) Message-ID: I was just searching for the end of the world as we know it. I feel fine. The phrase "as we know it" supposedly originated in the 1950s--much earlier than the 1991 REM song--but it's earlier than that. Fred Shapiro might have still earlier, but I don't know it. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 6/10/1932 ...sub You WEre discussing the state of love-LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT" "WEll." he mused, "if.....The same friends, the home. This is nor AS strange, bu IT's pretty good. Anyway.....lag tor the freer, eASier "Preclstly But WE are off the.....baby hAS a new tooth. Common interests, "If IT's not the kids, IT la at le AS habIT.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, June 10, 1932 795 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUR WORLD LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WE re about 9 per cent.....pressure to flatten rushes and other plant LIFE in shallow ponds where the mosquIToes.....penciled that he had seen all there wAS to LIFE and lived long enough. He tied one end.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 818 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUR MAKING LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WE re about 9 per cent.....in'ariabr? are very conservative. I don't KNOW whether they are better cITizens or not.....pressure to flatten rushes and other plant LIFE in shallow ponds where the mosquIToes.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 824 k Hammond Times - 6/24/1937 ...WOULD THEN BE SIMILAR TO OUft WORLD ___ LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT, "IF THERE IS ATMOSPHERE.....Miss Gertrude Johnson, 46 wAS fighting for LIFE in the CIT hosp ITal here today and Georg.....quotes) inly are very conservative. I don't KNOW whether they are better cITizens or not.....all corresponding periods, the report said. LIFE insurance sales WEre about 9 per cent.. Hammond, Indiana Thursday, June 24, 1937 820 k Lincoln Star - 9/16/1931 ...to unseen realITies. They have to interpret LIFE's values, whereAS science interprets.....could be worse than armed conflict AS WE KNOW IT? Your letter refers to the risht of.....and he can enjoy all of the luxuries of LIFE, AS WE ll AS the necessITies, on much.....ITs chief consideration. You want to KNOW IT thers is a rational order in the.. Lincoln, Nebraska Wednesday, September 16, 1931 686 k Indiana Weekly Messenger - 12/2/1926 ...LIFE, said Professor Russell, at leASt LIFE AS WE KNOW IT. "If this earth WEre taken.....YOUNG PEOPLE AND ADULT The Message of the Book of Ruth. In order to grASp the matter.....a region there Is no hope of looking for LIFE AS WE KNOW IT, but there might exist.....there must be sWEpt into view the whole book of Ruth. The lesson text which is to be.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 02, 1926 808 k Monessen Daily Independent - 6/9/1932 ...You WEre discussing the states of love-LIFE, AS WE KNOW IT." "WEll." he mused, "if.....1'ou have discussed two stages of love-LIFE liverish Infatuation, and the I'crils of.....any bones about IT" I stated. "He didn't KNOW the old man wAS dead, but he admITted.....of us in this party hove where one watches LIFE funnel through, particularly if one is.. Monessen, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 09, 1932 912 k From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 24 10:19:06 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:19:06 -0800 Subject: "Word to the Mother" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1077559787@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: In the African American community, Word to *the* Mother is used in deference to the mother country--Africa. Lynne Murphy wrote: It means, approximately, "that's the truth" or "that's real/genuine". Then there's also "word up". Clarence Major (from Juba to Jive) has that as 'call for attention; used as an expression of one's word of honor". And then there's "word to your mother", which is defined on urbandictionary.com as: 1) I fully agree with you, you nicely brought up fellow 2) Say hellow to your sexy milf 3) I'm a white boy in need of a cool sounding motto. The last is undoubtedly directed to Vanilla Ice, who had the phrase in his song "Ice, Ice Baby" (or whatever the name of it was). "Word Up" was the title of a hit single by Cameo in 1988 (which has now infested my brain for the rest of the evening. Lynne --On Monday, February 23, 2004 9:53 am -0800 Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: "word" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dear linguists: > > As a superannuated English major I pride myself on keeping at least a = > nodding acquaintance with current slang. However, there is one usage = > that really confuses me- the use of the word "word." I've seen it it in = > the Beetle Bailey cartoon used by the African-American lieutenant so I = > guess it's mostly a black usage. But it was used in Yesterday's = > Doonesbury strip by a white character and I've seen it used in an L.A. = > Times aritcle on pop music. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to understand = > it from the context of its use. I'd really appreciate it if one of you = > could cllarify this for me. > > Thanks. > > Jerome Foster Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Feb 24 12:32:07 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:32:07 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ditto MSU; long gone dInIs (aka an elderly professor) >On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: > >>I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >>meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word > >No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly >professors. > >Bethany >U of TN From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Feb 24 13:51:22 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:51:22 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo Message-ID: David, I trust you are familiar with SABR, The Society for American Baseball Research, whose members spend endless hours researching such things. If not our url is http://www.sabr.org/ If anyone knows the answer to your question it probably will be a SABR member and if not one of us will be able to find the information if it exists. BTW. Every year SABR publishes a membership directory complete with descriptions of expertise and my favorite is Stan Musial who describes his expertise as hitting a baseball. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "davemarc" To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: davemarc > Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some > authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World > Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific > cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into > such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could > provide, onlist or offlist. > > Thanks! > > David From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Feb 24 14:04:34 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:04:34 -0500 Subject: Nathan Su"sskind (was: Antedating of schlemiel (1889)) In-Reply-To: <200402240500.i1O50Vvq000508@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: ------------------------------ Btw, the late Nathan S?sskind was Professor Emeritus of German and Jewish Studies (City College, NYC) when I first met him in the 1980s. I was startled to see that he had a variety of manuscripts in various stages of completion but had resigned himself to not publishing any more. I quickly realized that circumstances had presented me with an important task for the scholarly community, namely encouraging him to complete his unfinished work and publishing it. His items appeared in my series of working papers _Comments on Etymology_, primarily in a supplement I started for him, _Comments on Judaism_. I later compiled the most important ones in my _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_ (vol. 2; 1991). ------------------------------ Mr. Su"sskind (as we knew him then, without doctorate or professorial rank) was my German teacher at City College ca. 1971. My wife and I remember him with great fondness. I was an experienced language student and was often the first to answer a question. Mr. Su"sskind started using me as a foil in class, something like: "Please, Harris, try again. From Mandel I'd expect such a mistake, but not from you!" Although I knew, and we all knew, that he wasn't serious, I felt hurt by these remarks, and once I pulled up the courage to tell him he was immediately apologetic and stopped at once. We have recently moved from the Boston area to Philadelphia, and my wife reminded me that he was the only person we knew of to move to a larger apartment just to have space for his books. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 24 15:16:51 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:16:51 -0500 Subject: "tall, dark, and hansome" whence? In-Reply-To: <000001c3f161$4f76bfd0$f4621941@sam> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >From the Straightdope, as usual. > > I can find a hit on newspaperarchive for 1941, "dark and hansome." > > But when does the full treatment (tall, dark and hansome) start? And what > is meant by "dark?" You've been tripped up by misspelling (is one allowed to use the word "misspelling" on a linguists' list?) the word "handsome." "Tall, dark and handsome" goes back to 1882 on newspaperarchive. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:20:33 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:20:33 EST Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: I appreciate Arnold Zwicky's discussion (copied below), which raises an important topic that is rarely discussed. But I'm wondering if he is merely reporting on unwritten rules as he has internalized them, or if he is referring to rules that have been codified in written form by some authoritative source. In any case, I am grateful to Arnold for raising a question that is both of practical value to academic professionals (such issues have real relevance in promotion-and-tenure decisions)--and which is interesting linguistically in its own right as a question of pragmatics and discourse analysis. I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume that a multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first author and that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a little PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that requires "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works with "et al." The truth is that it is generally impossible to know what the order means. Even if there are some academic standards that are explicitly agreed on (and these would have to be in writing somewhere), a number of different factors (including the possibility that the authors decided to use an alphabetical listing) may be at work, as Arnold points out, and the criteria are almost never made explicit in the texts themselves to resolve the ambiguity. (The only common exception to this that I can think of is if the second author is designated as "with", which in fact usually means that the second author did the real writing of a work that is a biography and the first author, a celebrity furnished the information.) Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author (or the one with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. Complicating the issue further is the fact that it just is not true that the first-is-most-important rule does not operate among scholars. I know at least one linguist of no little note who publically stated under oath that at least one scholarly work that he published with other scholars was author-listed out of alphabetical order so as to give prominence to the name of the one author who was a graduate student, in order to give a little boost to his career. And, as Arnold notes himself, some of the own bi-authored works in which his name appears first (i.e., out of alphabetical order) have been interpreted by a number of people--not just the "vulgar" and "uncorrected"--as meaning that his contribution is the greater one. Also, I know of scholars who frequently write papers together who rotate the order of the listed names in attempt to counteract the impression that the work of either one is more important than that of the other. As we all know, the question of the relative pragamatic importance of items in a series has been fairly extensively studied by psycholinguists. The results are complicated, but in general the first and last places (as one might expect) are the most memorable. It seems to me pretty clear that the problem arises in this case because people are inclined to folliow the pragmatic rule that tells them that the first has to be the most important unless they are told otherwise. (I have actually heard people in tenure cases say things like, "Well, how many of the articles did she write as FIRST author? She is just the second author on most of them." If her name is "Butters" rather than "Zwicky" this can be especially damning, as Arnold suggests below). I wonder if it might not be a good idea for the American Dialect Society and the Linguistic Society of America to take an official stand on this matter--unless a stand has already been taken we don't know about. Ron Butters (whose last name comes way way at the other end of the alphabet from Zwicky, but who has suffered with Arnold nonetheless). In a message dated 1/28/04 8:58:04 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << i was astonished to see CHOICE referring to a co-authored book as the work of the first listed author. undergraduate students do this a lot, and i always correct them. (at least some of them genuinely believe that books and articles *really* have just one author, who's listed first; the others are just people who helped in some way. this belief undoubtedly arises from their own experience in research and writing, which almost never includes true collaboration.) maybe i'm oversensitive, since the very common scheme of listing authors in alphabetical order almost always puts me last, but attributing a joint work to its first-listed author is a vulgar error. it *might* be that the CHOICE reviewer reasoned that since the authors of this book were listed out of alphabetical order, with feinman before clapp and mckean, feinman must have been the principal author. it is true that authors are sometimes listed in order of descending contribution -- this is the case for Elizabeth Zwicky, Simon Cooper, and Brent Chapman, Building Internet Firewalls -- but there are many other reasons for non-alphabetical orderings (the lab director or principal investigator on a grant is often listed first, even if this person contributed little to the project), and even in descending-contribution orderings the difference between the contributions can be pretty slight. (i've come to regret the ordering Zwicky-Pullum that appears on some of our joint works, since it suggests that my part was *much* more important than geoff's. if you stick to alphabetical ordering, no such ranking is implicated.) surely reviewers for CHOICE should understand that you can't conclude much from the ordering of names, and even if a reviewer is ignorant, copy editors should have caught the error and fixed it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), at the end even in the American Speech article by Zwicky & Zwicky -- Ann D. Zwicky & Arnold M. Zwicky >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:27:17 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:27:17 EST Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 12:41:06 AM, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: << Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS "gay boy" from 1904. So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. But the interesting part was the actual quote: 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am I just misreading this cite? SC >> GAY didn't come to mean 'homosexual' until the 1930s (late 1920s at the very earliest), and then it was an insider term known only to other homosexuals. It didn't move out into the general population until the 1940s and 1950s, and even then it wasn't very powerful. The general population didn't use the term as the primary meaning until the late 1960s. The 1904 cite surely has nothing to do with homosexuality. From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Tue Feb 24 16:30:01 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:30:01 -0500 Subject: Query for TV: Early Mass. Accents? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Please respond to the original sender. .............. Hello there I'm wondering if you can help me? I'm writing from a leading TV production company in the UK and am seeking advice about early American accents. We're producing a documentary for The History Channel about American prisoners of war in New York during the Revolutionary War and we're using memoirs and diary accounts of the captives to stage some dramatic reconstructions. Our two main American protagonists were both born and raised in Massachusetts, and I'm trying to find out what kind of accent they would have spoken with c. 1780. If there's any useful information that you could pass on to me I would be most grateful. With many thanks Kind regardss Jessica Roe (Producer) jessica.roe at principal.tv Principal Films Picture House 65 Hopton Street London SE1 9LR Tel: 020 7928 9287 Fax: 020 7928 9886 Mobile: 07949 232318 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Feb 24 16:38:46 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:38:46 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <403A67B7.17938.1DA2AF5@localhost> Message-ID: I checked Vito Russo's book The Celluloid Closet and found some confirmation that "gay" was used of homosexuals well before the 20s and 30s. Here, for example, is a statement I found on page 6: The idea of homosexuality first emerged onscreen . . . as an unseen danger, a reflection of our fears about the perils of tampering with male and females roles. Characters who were less than men or more than women had their first expression in the zany farce of mistaken identity and transvestite humor inherited from our oldest theatrical traditions . . . An experimental film directed by William Dickson at the Thomas Edison Studio in 1895 shows two men dancing a waltz. It was titled _The Gay Brothers_. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:32:24 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:32:24 -0600 Subject: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: I don't think this 1904 item represents a homosexual lisp. Rather it looks like part of the speech patterns of the 1883ff. "dudes"--brainless, well-dressed (high collar, tight pants, pointed shoes, top hat, etc.) young men who seemed to be imitating Oscar Wilde and what they considered to be British cultured gentlemen. Cartoonists and other humorists of their time had a field-day with them. Gerald Cohen At 12:02 AM -0500 2/24/04, Sam Clements wrote: >Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and cited HDAS >"gay boy" from 1904. > >So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above it for >"gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. > >But the interesting part was the actual quote: > >1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? You look >a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. > >Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? Or, am >I just misreading this cite? > >SC From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 16:43:36 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:43:36 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? Message-ID: The 1903 cite is questionable to say the least. That is why HDAS puts it in square brackets. GAY meant 'prostitute' and 'promiscuous woman' in Victorian England. The VERY occasional references to "gay boy" undoubtedly are an extension of the 'prostitute' meaning. There is NO evidence that this meaning skipped over to mean 'homosexual' proper (for one thing, this was not really even a concept in Victorian England, let alone something that there would have been a word for). There is even less reason to believe that the Victorian meaning skipped across the ocean and reppeared in American hobo (sic) slang of the 1930s. American hobo slang GEYCAT may have affected the 1930s subculture meaning of GAY 'homosexual', but I doubt it. It first emerges among urban males of a class that would not have had too much contact with hobos. A more likely etymology is as an extension of the common 1920s meaning of GAY as 'somewhat decadent; given to party-going and attention to material things such as fashion and furniture. All of this has been discussed before, I believe, on ADS-L. I discuss it in detail in my DICTIONARIES article a few years back. In a message dated 2/23/04 11:37:00 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << But "gayboy" = "homosexual man" appears (HDAS) to date from 1903 ... and even without that early citation "gay boy" would be natural by analogy to (apparently very prevalent) 19th century "gay girl" meaning "prostitute" (still so used in South Asia). Given "gay boy" = "male prostitute" (the narrowest analogy), extension to "homosexual man" in mainstream use would be certain IMHO, and if "gay boy" = "homosexual man" then I think immediate "gay" = "homosexual" is a cinch. Just a plausibility argument. I suspect that "gaycat" assumed its homosexual implication (to the extent that it had any) from "gay" rather than the other way around: "gaycat" basically meant "amateur tramp" originally AFAIK (whence?), and only later "sidekick"/"possible catamite". >> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:45:42 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0500 2/24/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors >are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in >which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author >(or the one >with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. > Sometimes a jointly authored paper will include a footnote at the end of line giving the authors' names which reads "The names of the authors are listed in alphabetical order" or something along those lines. To which my disingenuous response is "Duh", but of course the implicature is "...and for no other reason." larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:57:09 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:57:09 -0800 Subject: lisps and homosexuals In-Reply-To: <196.26306c83.2d6cd565@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:27 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/04 12:41:06 AM, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > << Doug Wilson just posted to the "Gay self-appellation" thread and > cited HDAS > "gay boy" from 1904. > > So, I went to see the exact language. And then I read the cite above > it for > "gay-and-frisky" which was rhyming slang for _whiskey_. > > But the interesting part was the actual quote: > > 1904 Dunbar _Happy Hollow_ 248: Whath the mattah? Up againtht it? > You look > a little ol' to be doin' the gay an' frithky. > > Is there an earlier cite for imitating the stereotypical? gay lisp? > Or, am > I just misreading this cite? Ron replies: > GAY didn't come to mean 'homosexual' until the 1930s (late 1920s at > the very > earliest), and then it was an insider term known only to other > homosexuals. It > didn't move out into the general population until the 1940s and 1950s, > and > even then it wasn't very powerful. The general population didn't use > the term as > the primary meaning until the late 1960s. > > The 1904 cite surely has nothing to do with homosexuality. we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken speech or both. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Tue Feb 24 16:57:49 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:57:49 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's name is listed last. That struck me as odd when I first began studying molecular genetics. I assumed if there wasn't an arbitrary alphabetical listing, the first name was that of the major researcher or professor supervising the work. I guess I should never assume anything across disciplines. ?? Laurence Horn wrote: > At 11:20 AM -0500 2/24/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >Even an alphabetical listing is ambiguous: we can't be sure that the authors > >are following the alphabet rule or one of the other rules in a situation in > >which it JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE CASE that the most important author > >(or the one > >with the grant, etc.) has an early-alphabet last name. > > > Sometimes a jointly authored paper will include a footnote at the end > of line giving the authors' names which reads "The names of the > authors are listed in alphabetical order" or something along those > lines. To which my disingenuous response is "Duh", but of course the > implicature is "...and for no other reason." > > larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 17:00:22 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:22 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Russo is much given to anachronistic readings of GAY, and of course he had an agenda to do so. Since GAY meant 'happy, carefree, a little zany', that would be an appropriate word to use for two men dancing together in 1895. The same word could have been used for two women dancing together, or a man and a woman. At it means is that they are happy and carefree. What is totally impossible is that Edison meant that two men dancing together were GAY in the sense that they were men who preferred to wear the clothing of women (Russo's erroneous "transveste") or that they were men who were particularly inclined to have sex with other men. The idea of tow men having sex with other man was such an abomination in 1895 that for Edison even to SUGGEST it in the title of the movie would have been too shocking for the public to stand for. Indeed, the fact that Edison felt free to use the term GAY in this way is a very strong argument AGAINST any reading of GAY as referring to 'homosexual' in 1895. Russo also makes much of Cary Grant's use of the word GAY in the 1938 American Movie BRINGING UP BABY. I argue against this reading in my DICTIONARIES article; again, the fact that Cary Grant, a closest bisexual, used this term in self-reference in an ad-lib in a film is something of an argument AGAINST construing GAY to mean 'homosexual'. Moreover, given the context of utterance, Grant could at best have been associating GAY with transvestitism (which is NOT what Grant himself would have thought of as homosexuality), not homosexuality. More likely, Grant would have thought of GAY in connection with GAY FOLLIES, i.e., women in scanty garments appearing in public (a common use of GAY in the 1920s and 1930s). In a message dated 2/24/04 11:36:32 AM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << I checked Vito Russo's book The Celluloid Closet and found some confirmation that "gay" was used of homosexuals well before the 20s and 30s. Here, for example, is a statement I found on page 6: The idea of homosexuality first emerged onscreen . . . as an unseen danger, a reflection of our fears about the perils of tampering with male and females roles. Characters who were less than men or more than women had their first expression in the zany farce of mistaken identity and transvestite humor inherited from our oldest theatrical traditions . . . An experimental film directed by William Dickson at the Thomas Edison Studio in 1895 shows two men dancing a waltz. It was titled _The Gay Brothers_. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 17:03:48 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:03:48 EST Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 11:58:28 AM, lesa.dill at WKU.EDU writes: << In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's name is listed last. >> Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? (Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important to know what the source is for such judgments.) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Tue Feb 24 17:18:00 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:18:00 -0000 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In re gay-/gey-cat: There are various defs. 1. late 19C?1950s a young or inexperienced tramp. 2. late 19C?1950s a hobo who accepts occasional or seasonal work. 3. 1900s-40s (US Und.) the junior member of a criminal gang, employed to run errands or spy out possible crimes 4. 1930s a tramp?s younger, homosexual companion. The locus classic us is perhaps: 1921 P. & T. Casey _The Gay-cat_ 17: A gay-cat is the scorn of hoboes. He is a fake hobo. He lacks altogether the qualities of a blown-in-the-glass stiff. He will ?peach? on his mates. He will turn against a friend when that friend is down to tomato cans. Anything and everything mean and despicable is worthy of a gay-cat. To call a man that is to brand him with the most loathed name a hobo knows. It is the quintessence of contempt. [The 'gay-cat' narrator of the Caseys' book is not, ostensibly homosexual; that said, his relations are uniquely with older hobo males; could there have been a degree of self-censorship on behalf of the author? Certainly the contempt in which the 'gay-cat' is held might be seen as extending further than one who is merely a less experienced tramp.] The point about gay, surely, is that it is euphemistic. I don't know whether this interwar term crossed the Atlantic, but in the UK there was also 'so' ('Is he "so"?'); the US had the parallel 'that way'. Thus 'gay' passed from Chaucer's (and latterly Shakespeare's) use, meaning generally dissipated, thence to promiscuous/immoral, of a woman, and thence, since one was attempting to describe what were seen, stereotypically, as both promiscuous and effeminate males, homosexuals. If the term was adopted by gay men, then it simply prefigures the similar positive appropriation of verbal opprobria, such as 'nigger' and 'queer' by the respective black and homosexual communities. I would also note Bruce Rodgers' cite of 16C French _gaie_, a homosexual man, although I have yet to confirm this. As for gay-/gey cat def. 4, my feeling is that it has been influenced by the homosexual ue of gay, but that it's 'young or inxperienced' definition came first. But, as noted, one can never under-estimate the mis-direction of self-censorship. Jonathon Green From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 24 17:00:57 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:57 -0500 Subject: "word" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, I'm finally enjoying using it--late, as usual. "Word up" is gone too, isn't it? At 07:32 AM 2/24/2004 -0500, you wrote: >ditto MSU; long gone > >dInIs (aka an elderly professor) > >>On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ray Villegas wrote: >> >>>I attend Ariznona State University and the new word or phrase is "my bad" >>>meaning I made a mistake or it was my fault. I haven't heard the word >> >>No one here says "my bad" much anymore - except for a few elderly >>professors. >> >>Bethany >>U of TN From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 18:00:58 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:00:58 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals In-Reply-To: <7BFD5C4E-66EA-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, i wrote: > we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that > what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken > speech or both. or, even more likely, now that i think about it, irish (drunk or sober). wasn't a lithp a conventional indication of working-class irish english, in print at this period (late 19th century, early 20th century)? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:01:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:01:48 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: geoff pullum reminds me that "Linguistic Inquiry adopted around 1980 a policy of refusing to accept names in non-alphabetical order". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:21:59 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:21:59 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <1d2.1a883d62.2d6cddf4@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 2/24/04 11:58:28 AM, lesa.dill at WKU.EDU writes: > ><< In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary investigator's >name is >listed last. >> > >Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? >(Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important >to know what >the source is for such judgments.) This is certainly the policy in the sciences according to my sister. She is a pediatric cardiologist and as part of her board certification needed to be LISTED as first author on one (or more) publication(s). The last name of the many authors listed was the senior member writing the article. I have co-authored several papers with Eric Schiller, and I know we traded off on who was listed first--and at least once he said, you need the publishing credit more that I do. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:23:06 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:23:06 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume > that a > multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first > author and > that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a > little > PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that > requires > "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works > with "et > al." i have no problem with "N et al." (taking a plural verb form when it's a subject). i objected to references to the first author's name only (taking a singular verb form when it's a subject). this is simply wrong. there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who objects when addressed as "Alfred" or "Dr. Zwinky", as has happened during the past week From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:41:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:41:50 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <163.2c0fcb11.2d6cd3d1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I appreciate Arnold Zwicky's discussion (copied below), which raises an > important topic that is rarely discussed. But I'm wondering if he is > merely > reporting on unwritten rules as he has internalized them, or if he is > referring to > rules that have been codified in written form by some authoritative > source. i was reporting on divergent practices, which together make it impossible to conclude, in linguistics and some other contexts, what the meaning of first-mention is. and the practices that i'm reporting on are from my own experience. it now turns out, from reports here, that there are contexts in which the ordering has been at least partially codified (principal investigator last; alphabetical order). but if you look at the author ordering in linguistics books, it's clear that more than one thing is going on. in the most recent issue of Language (79.4, december 2003), most of the multi-authored books have their authors in alphabetical order, but seven do not, and we don't know quite what to make of this: Wischer & Diewald Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz Hellinger & Bussmann Satterfield, Tortora, & Cresti Selting & Couper-Kuhlen Voeltz & Kilian-Hatz Weigand & Dascal (the editors of Language are, of course, not free to rearrange the authors' names, but must take them as they appear on the books themselves.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Tue Feb 24 19:49:15 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:49:15 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: Well, standard capitalization according to which discipline? Science does some wierd things there too. A lot of scientific styles require only the first word of the title and proper nouns to be capitalized. That can really look strange, I'd agree, especially when the style omits the quotation marks or underlining. In that case, no matter how much I know that punctuation is right, the sentence looks substandard to me. I agree that a lot of times prescriptions are appropriate and absolutely necessary. What's crazy is when the prescriptions disagree! Makes one have to have a split personality of sorts. "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:20 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > I certainly agree with Arnold that it is too simple merely to assume > > that a > > multiply-authored article or book is "really" the work of the first > > author and > > that the others "just helped" a bit. However, it does seem more than a > > little > > PRESCRIPTIVE of Dr. Zwicky to call the practice a "vulgar error" that > > requires > > "correction"--especially given the common practice of citing works > > with "et > > al." > > i have no problem with "N et al." (taking a plural verb form when it's > a subject). i objected to references to the first author's name only > (taking a singular verb form when it's a subject). this is simply > wrong. > > there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely > appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics > Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic > Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling > (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who objects when addressed as > "Alfred" or "Dr. Zwinky", as has happened during the past week From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Feb 24 20:02:37 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:02:37 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <7DB3D0DE-6701-11D8-ADDB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz< Is this an exception to the alpha rule? Maybe the H of Harlig operates here. A. Murie From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Feb 24 20:14:51 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:14:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <136.2ad3c6cf.2d6cdd26@aol.com> Message-ID: Okay, Ron, I'm sorry I neglected to re-read your article before venturing to comment on this issue. (Obviously, my memory failed me miserably when I took Russo's interpretation at face value!) The original query had to do with "insider" self-referential vocabulary, though, and, given the evidence, I'd be inclined to think that we can't totally rule out the possibility that homosexual men of the 1920s and 30s attached a special self-referential significance, be it in the form of double-entendre or straightforward denotation, when they used the word "gay" of each other (or of themselves). Though it almost certainly meant no such thing to the population at large, as you argue, I imagine that there must have been a sort of slow semantic creep towards that meaning in the minds of gays themselves, just as today "androgynous" can have a dual meaning when used by one gay woman of another (though whether it actually carries that meaning in a particular case would depend on the context). So I guess I'd be a bit more willing than you to entertain the possibility that, to some people, "gay" might have carried a "homosexual" double-entendre, perhaps even in nonce fashion, in the context of its application to two cross-dressed men dancing together, even as early as 1895. But -- not to worry! -- I would never base a Collegiate date on such evidence. If I had the option to bracket the usage, though, I might. I'd really love to follow the lead in Cory's book and look at some 1920s-era gay underground literature. The NYPL has a very good GLB archive, from what I understand. Now to pitch this idea to my boss... Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Tue Feb 24 20:05:15 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:05:15 -0800 Subject: word" Message-ID: Dear Linguists: Thank you for your quick help on "word." Jerome Foster From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:29:59 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:29:59 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I happen to know these people, and I suspect Sue Gass was the instigator of the volume and therefore listed herself first (privilege of seniority in the field of SLA, not necessarily age). Note that the other three are alphabetical (Kathleen Bardovi-Harlig always is listed as B). Again, the rules for the book are set by the authors themselves, and the journal has to abide by that. At 03:02 PM 2/24/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >Gass, Bardovi-Harlig, Magnan, & Walz< >Is this an exception to the alpha rule? Maybe the H of Harlig operates here. >A. Murie From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:38:13 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:38:13 -0800 Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about eurhythmics as exercise? The AHD4 has: The art of interpreting musical compositions by rhythmical, free-style bodily movement. I see eurhythmics listed along with tai chi and other exercises on Google, though. The dictionary entry I'm working on suggests it as the translation from the Japanese ritsudou taisou. A link at http://hametsul.hp.infoseek.co.jp/zanpan/ shows children doing exercise to music, which just seems like a glorified form of what you see on children's TV programs. Any suggestions appreciated. Benjamin Barrett From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 24 22:50:18 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:50:18 -0500 Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise In-Reply-To: <200402242238.i1OMcrbO027833@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps look into Rudolf Steiner Eurhythmy and Jaques-Dalcruze Eurhythmics 1912. S. Goranson From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 22:54:31 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:54:31 EST Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 3:13:55 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << I'd really love to follow the lead in Cory's book and look at some 1920s-era gay underground literature. The NYPL has a very good GLB archive, from what I understand. Now to pitch this idea to my boss... >> I've done some of this, and the evidence for your theory is pretty slim. For one thing, GAY is used all over the place in such literature--even up into the 1950s and 1960s--with its standard meanings. There are a few environments in which the characters MIGHT be interpreted as using GAY 'homosexual', just like the cross-dressing dancers in 1895 (one such appears in HDAS), but they just as likely might be using GAY in the conventional sense. NONE of the underground literature that I have seen makes any clear reference to GAY as an insider term--though they do discuss lots of other insider terms. Not until 1940 do we find anyone noting that the term is a secret word for 'that way'. The impulse is really really POWERFUL to read our own meaning into the use of a word like GAY in an earlier time. But if GAY in 1895 was a secret term meaning 'homosexual' (and, again, the concept pretty much didn't even exist in 1895) what would the point have been in making such a veiled allusion? Who would the author of such a title have been appealing to? Other "homosexuals"? To what end? Who, in 1895, would have been so daring as to have made such an appeal? Why do we have to see GAY as meaning 'homosexual' in the 1895 film when there are other meanings that are perfectly adequate to explain the title from a Victorian point of view (and when it is virtually impossible to imagine a Victorian using the term in its modern sense). From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Feb 24 23:42:30 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:42:30 EST Subject: Eurhythmics as Exercise Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/2004 6:01:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: The dictionary entry I'm working on suggests it as the translation from the Japanese ritsudou taisou. A link at http://hametsul.hp.infoseek.co.jp/zanpan/ shows children doing exercise to music, which just seems like a glorified form of what you see on children's TV programs. Eurythmy was created by Rudolf Steiner, the Austrian/German philosopher/man of ideas --the founder of anthroposophy--and is still very much an active part of all Steiner (Waldorf) Schools around the world--including here at Princeton where my wife teaches. There are two types--one is somewhat balletic, and the other (tone-eurythmy) was conceived as a way to express speech through movement. Here is an excerpt from Stewart C. Easton "Man and World in the Light of Anthroposophy" Lory Smits was an 18 year old girl who had suddenly lost her father. Lory and her mother were very poor and the mother didn't want her to become a professional dancer, so she asked Steiner for advice. He gave Lory a number of exercises to perform, "connected with the movement or arms and feet in relation to spoken sounds. These exercises were followed for many months from the autumn of 1911 until Rudolf Steiner felt that she had progressed far enough to be given some private lessons in what was to become eurythmy. He therefore asked Lory and her mother to come to Basel, where he was giving a series of lectures on the Gospel of St. Mark (September 1912), and this first eurythmist, who soon undertook to teach others what she had just learned, spent the afternoons in a small room ..." it goes on to say the first performance in this new art was presented in Munich in August, 1913. Dale Coye The College of NJ From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:05:02 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:05:02 -0600 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <200402241703.AJF03362@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 11:03 AM 2/24/04, you wrote: >Is this written down somewhere, or are you just reporting your intuitions? >(Not that the reporting of intuitions is bad--it is just important to know >what >the source is for such judgments.) I have discussed this with the Associate Provost for Academic Personnel at Wayne State (who reads all the university's tenure and promotion dossiers), and she tells me that there is great variation within the 'sciences'. For example, in some disciplines, including a number of medical ones, the last named author is the person who 'owns' the lab, but may have done no work at all on the actual research. But there is considerable variation on this, and in some cases second authorship counts, because you give your graduate student first authorship. You just have to know the individual culture, and in cross-disciplinary committees there has to be considerable work to done to explain just exactly this issue. Explaining single-authored humanities and linguistics papers to physicists takes work. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Linguistics Program and Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology Wayne State University Linguistics: (313) 577-8621 Department of English, C&IT: (313) 577-1259 Wayne State University, Detroit, MI, 48202 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Feb 25 00:13:44 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:13:44 -0500 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order Message-ID: In law review articles, when there are two authors, the first of whom is a noted professor and the second is in a much more junior position, the assumption is that the noted professor did the thinking and the junior person did the work. If the first author is an important partner at a law firm and the second is a junior partner or associate, it's assumed that the junior partner or associate did both the thinking and the work, and the partner endorsed it. I would tell you what it means when the first author is the student assistant or associate and the second is the noted professor or senior partner, but I've never seen that. John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 00:38:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:38:44 EST Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking tickets. "Make like a tree," the guard told me. "Make like a tree?" "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" That damn hotel "body bar"! I knew that I shouldn't have come back from Panama smelling like a eucalpytus!!! The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has this under "make like a--" and gives "1950a+." The HDAS has 1958 for "make like bubblegum and blow," then 1968 for "make like a tree and leave." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 3/18/1954 ...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles kids who.....t be there) And "I dig it the leAst" (don't LIKE I it At All) A nd think I'll pick up jon.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 674 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/23/1957 ...reAching for is "cuttings." "ShAll we MAKE LIKE A TREE And "Where did you leArn All "I.....And the ImAginAtion, An excellent book for those who Are not mAthemAticAlly.....Kohler. TAken together, these exAmples look LIKE A right-turn trend Among liberAl.....you do not dig me, DAddy0, A jelly tot is LIKE .A Jim DAndy. Only -younger. A Jim DAndy.. Reno, Nevada Monday, September 23, 1957 573 k Appeal Democrat - 12/17/1958 ...MAKE the effort." "NeAt, beAt. So I'll MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." And he did. We could.....As in the United StAtes. The AverAge-sized book would retA il At hArdly less thAn the.....Those who leAd us into this chAnnel will be LIKE the sorcerer who knew the Art of mAking.....IIM8 For A Fire-Free ChristmAs IK ChristmAs TREE, lit All Usitrcu fires eAch over And.. Marysville, California Wednesday, December 17, 1958 728 k Newport Daily News - 4/15/1954 ...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles kids who.....pAinted trim in the children's room, book cAses. Scouring powder: HArd to beAt for.....pAin is mAking him fussy. He will probAbly LIKE to hAve you rub his gums. He rubs them.....Anything he cAn get hold of, but he'd LIKE to hAve you do some rubbing too. CleAn.. Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, April 15, 1954 512 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/18/1954 ...bAses Aroucd RussiA. He mAde the or "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los A ngeles kids who.....officiAls Are showing disLIKE for A phrAse LIKE "new look" Sisenhower himselfj 1.....world Bikini-ism ThAt meAns swimsuits LIKE. those worn Above by Bonnie Y eAger.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 839 k Mountain Democrat - 3/4/1987 ...by DAve Cole HEY YOU, why dontchA MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve HA, hA. I got A million.....test wAs tAken, the CHP sAid. Church's new TREE to be plAnted soon COLOMA The EmmAnuel.....Church in ColomA is About to get A new TREE to replAce the venerAble old cedAr thAt.....contrActed to plAnt A young Incense CedA r TREE in the sAme spot inhAbited by the former.. Placerville, California Wednesday, March 04, 1987 500 k From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 01:21:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:21:17 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <403BAABB.AC05C607@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Lesa Dill wrote: > Well, standard capitalization according to which discipline?... > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ... and i'm going to insist on standard spelling >> (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. that was a wry reference to my (very nonstandard) use of all-lower-case in rapid informal posting on the net. arnold From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 01:44:58 2004 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:44:58 -0500 Subject: Call for Papers Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I hope that many of you will attend the Modern Language Association convention in Philadelphia this year, and that some of you will present your current research in sessions sponsored by the American Dialect Society at the MLA convention. If you would like to be on the MLA program, please send an abstract to MAdams1448 at aol.com by 20 March 2004. Since time immemorial, the MLA has been host to many important sessions on American speech. Recently, several papers presented at the convention have appeared in the "Journal of English Linguistics," "American Speech," and elsewhere. In an age of criticism and theory, it's up to the American Dialect Society to put the "language" back into "Modern Language Association." If you plan to attend the convention, or if you would attend were you to present a paper, please submit an abstract. One important note: you must be an MLA member to present a paper at the MLA convention, and your membership must be registered by 1 April 2004 for this year's convention. Year by year, fewer ADS members attend the MLA convention. It has become increasingly difficult to fill the ADS sessions at MLA, as a result. If you are planning to attend, PLEASE submit an abstract so that American speech continues to be an aspect of the MLA program. Our sessions are always well-attended; MLA members are clearly interested in what ADS members have to say about American speech, but they won't hear anything if we can't fill the sessions with interesting papers. Recently, I've been elected to the MLA Delegate Assembly, the MLA's governing body. My sole interest in taking this responsibility is to promote study of American English, but my job will be much harder if there's no ADS presence at MLA. So, once again, please, PLEASE submit an abstract if it's at all consonant with your scholarly plans. With all best wishes (and high hopes), Michael From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 01:55:44 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:55:44 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 2:23:41 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. >> Exactly -- and these are all examples where one can cite authority rather than just issue edicts based on one's own preferences. My prescriptions = your carelessness = his mistaken notions? From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 02:21:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:21:14 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <403B828D.CC318734@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, Lesa Dill wrote: > In scientific publications, the norm is that the primary > investigator's name is > listed last. That struck me as odd when I first began studying > molecular > genetics. I assumed if there wasn't an arbitrary alphabetical > listing, the first > name was that of the major researcher or professor supervising the > work. I guess > I should never assume anything across disciplines. ?? a quick look at the most recent issue of Science makes me dubious about this. the editorial is by Kennedy, Austin, Urquhart, & Taylor (of whom kennedy, the editor of the journal, is certainly the principal person involved). there's a NewsFocus (reportorial) piece by Triunfol & Mervis (which i take to be major-contributor-first). the Research Articles begin with something in physics by Lyne, Burgay, Kramer, Possenti, Manchester, Camilo, McLaughlin, Lorimer, D'Amico, Joshi, Reynolds, & Freire (i have no idea what's going on here.) it goes on like this, article after article. there 's one two-authored piece, by Terman & Kolodkin; terman and kolodkin each credit two grants (neither of them joint); terman is cited in one reference, kolodkin in two; and correspondence is directed to kolodkin. (they're both at john hopkins.) but then it turns out that Medline shows 14 articles by terman, going back to 1999, but 35 articles by kolodkin, going back all the way to 1983, so kolodkin is presumably the senior of the two. i can't find anything in the various guidelines for authors that speaks to the order of contributors. they do tell you to omit academic titles, but say nothing about the ordering of names. so i now suspect that any conventions about ordering are informal and unspoken, and there might well be several (incompatible) ones. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Feb 25 02:39:24 2004 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:39:24 -0800 Subject: Pragmatics of authors-name order In-Reply-To: <200402250013.TAB26589@impregnable.cnchost.com> Message-ID: Anthropology and archaeology usually vary between who-did-more-work order, and Big-Thoughts-first order. Straight alpha is usually used only when the egos get so big that there's no other way to resolve the issue. The equivalent of "owner of the lab" doesn't exist. I have suspected that a collaborating couple with numerous coauthored papers flip coins for senior authorship. On larger reports or monographs, editor/s are commonly listed who wrote little, if any, of the report but who reviewed it for content and who assume responsibility if it's incorrect. The actual authors will be listed as specific contributors (and can be cited on a chapter-specific basis), but the cited "authors" of the entire work are the editor/s. The references are supposed to include (editors) after their names. All that is subject to change if politics enters into it. Then there's the case of the well-known, powerful professor in California anthropology who was known for inserting himself as senior author when his grad student/s did all the work and thinking. We pass on by word of mouth who really did all the work, but we still have to cite the works as "Professor and Student." I'm sure there are similar cases in other regions. Gwyn Alcock Redlands From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Feb 25 02:40:13 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:40:13 -0800 Subject: authority for prescriptions In-Reply-To: <1ea.19c6171e.2d6d5aa0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2004, at 5:55 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/04 2:23:41 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > > << there are plenty of places in life where prescriptions are entirely > appropriate. i'm going to object if you refer to "the Linguistics > Society of America" (or, for that matter, to "the Berkeley Linguistic > Society"), for example, and i'm going to insist on standard spelling > (and capitalization, even!) in academic publications. >> > > Exactly -- and these are all examples where one can cite authority > rather > than just issue edicts based on one's own preferences. My > prescriptions = your > carelessness = his mistaken notions? one more time, and then i give up. what i said, at the very beginning of my 1/28/04 posting was: "i was astonished to see CHOICE referring to a co-authored book as the work of the first listed author." the problem is not my preference. it's a matter of truth. if you say "In 'The syntax-phonology interface' (in Newmeyer 1988), Pullum says..." this is at best misleading, quite possibly false. the article was by Pullum & Zwicky, and most of its *sentences* have some words from pullum and some from zwicky. so maybe pullum said that, maybe zwicky did, maybe it was an indissolubly joint assertion. but it's wrong to attribute it to pullum alone. there are two issues here: how to refer to jointly written works (here i think there are some rights and wrongs) and how to order authors' names in jointly written works (here i *made no prescriptions*; i did express a preference, recently come to, but i certainly did not insist on alphabetical order, nor did i ever say that other orderings were wrong). i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 25 04:55:54 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:55:54 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo: corrigendum In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040220214449.02f04ab0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is apparently no >"skidoo 23" .... Embarrassed by the capricious search engine again! "Skidoo 23" -- which did not appear in my careful initial search -- now turns up in a few cases as early as 1906 at N'archive. Back to the drawing board. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Feb 25 13:30:37 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:30:37 -0500 Subject: Twenty-three skiddoo: corrigendum In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040224234958.02eff300@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I find that I sometimes get different results at newspaperarchive.com depending whether I use www.newspaperarchive.com or beta.newspaperarchive.com. It might be worthwhile to try both. Grant On Feb 24, 2004, at 23:55, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> There are "23" and "skidoo" and "23 skidoo" ... but there is >> apparently no >> "skidoo 23" .... > > Embarrassed by the capricious search engine again! "Skidoo 23" -- > which did > not appear in my careful initial search -- now turns up in a few cases > as > early as 1906 at N'archive. Back to the drawing board. > > -- Doug Wilson > From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Feb 25 14:38:55 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:38:55 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) In-Reply-To: <30.50eae58e.2d6d3027@aol.com> Message-ID: If you've read the underground literature, then you're obviously in a much better position to judge than I am, Ron. And I do understand your objection to interpreting the title of that 1895 film, or of Cary Grant's line for that matter, as a full-blown use of the current meaning of "gay." I just wonder, particularly if the term "gay" appears so often in the underground literature, whether its contemporary use might have evolved from its use in contexts like the 1895 film, perhaps from the association of "gay" (meaning something like "outrageously giddy") behavior with homosexuals. But I suppose that's an argument from theoretical plausibility more than from linguistic fact. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Feb 25 15:39:35 2004 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:39:35 -0500 Subject: Dubious Daily Candy Lexicon Message-ID: Another silly installment of the Daily Candy Lexicon from the popular fashionista e-list Daily Candy (http://www.dailycandy.com/). Two of these terms ("blamestorming" and "mouse potato") were lifted right from my Jargon Watch column/book, circa 1997(!), definitions and all. "Helicopter girl/boyfriend" is obviously just a play on "helicopter mom," which has been making the rounds and was just used on "Joan of Arcadia" a few weeks ago. Gareth *** Lexicon VII 02/25/2004 You've finally fixed that nasty little yellular problem and even cut down on the e-mauling. But have you taken a look at what's actually coming out of your mouth? Sounds like it's time for another DailyCandy linguistic tune-up. helicopter girl/boyfriend (n.) A significant other who finds it necessary to hover around his or her mate at all times. ("I'd love to come to girls' night, but my helicopter probably won't let me out of his sight.") blamestorming (n.) A meeting whose sole purpose is to discuss why a deadline was missed or a project failed and who was responsible. teenile (adj.) Used to describe someone who is way too old for what he or she is wearing; see also "senile." ("That 45-year-old woman in those low-cut jeans? Is she crazy or just teenile?") mouse potato (n.) The wired generation's answer to the couch potato. karat dangler (n.) A woman who finds it of utmost importance to flaunt her engagement/wedding ring at all times. ("Who does that karat dangler think she's impressing? Like I've never seen a rock before.") resigoo: (n.) The residual stuff stuck to you after a bikini wax. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Feb 25 18:40:44 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:40:44 -0500 Subject: Query: Gay Self-Appellations in 20s, 30s? (Modified by Grant Barrett) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro posted here on July 5, '03, "queer" as a noun, used in a homosexual group in Long Beach, Calif., in 1914. Fred's source was an article in Journal of the History of Sexuality from 1995, and the ultimate source was "unpublished manuscripts relating to Long Beach, California". On Sept. 9, '03, I posted passages from the LATimes of 1914 using "queer" as an adjective, used by a homosexual man -- though my eye had been caught by other words in the passage and it took Fred to point out the antedating of "queer". The LATimes story was reporting on a scandal in Long Beach, evidently the same one as was described in the Journal. So this gives us "queer", noun & adj, used as a gay self-appellation as early as the mid 1910s, in southern California, at least. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 19:04:48 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:04:48 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/04 9:40:39 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. >> I can't imagine anyone in her right mind thinking bad thoughts about Arnold Zwicky, who surely is one of the nicest persons--and very best minds--in linguistics in my generation. I apologize for any invidious implications, which were unintentional. CHOICE is a journal that, as I recall, uses very small type and contains multitudinous entries. However, they could save more space by following the practice found in LANGUAGE: simply using the authors' initials. Thus "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968)" would be just "SW&R." If CHOICE's general practice is to refer to joint-authored books by the name of the first author alone, then I would agree that the practice is in violation of what most (all?) style manuals say. Or maybe they just made a mistake? One related practice that can confuse things even more: authors sometimes use the singular in references because they are thinking of the work and not the authors, e.g., "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968) says, ..." As an editor, I normally "correct" this to "say," if only because such authors never use the singular when the very is "write." From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Feb 25 19:37:06 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:37:06 EST Subject: Earlier Underground Gay Literature Message-ID: I certainly haven't read ALL the underground gay literature of the 1920s and 1930s that was out there, and it is not at all impossible that something will come up that will prove me wrong. I don't think, though, that, given what I've, seen the term GAY occurs with any greater frequency in the underground literature than in the above-ground literature. My point is that GAY in those novels is simnply used in its usual senses. What does NOT make sense to me is the idea that the occasional parallelistic references in Victorian England to GAY BOYS = male prostitutes would then have resurfaced in the 1920s tramp slang as GEYCAT (where homosexuality was not even a part of its ordinary meaning) and that from there it leapt to1930s Gay Urban Males, who embraced it as a code word that they used to identify each other (less for self-labelling, where the word QUEER was most often used). No part of that fanciful etymology makes sociolinguistic sense. J Green said in an earlier post that the early uses were "euphemistic," but this seems to me to be not quite right label for a code word. Ironic, yes, and sardonic. But euphemism to me indicates the polite substitution of one word for another, and these early-day queers were not being polite, they were being sublte. Even when they began using GAY openly to refer to themselves they were not substituting a nice term for a pejorative one. Socially, whatever a gay person used for self-labelling was negative. (Well, maybe "that way" was a euphemism.) Many gay men, even in the 1950s, preferred QUEER to GAY. GAY as a slang term had a wide range of meanings in the 1920s and 1930s, as movies from that period (and short stories) attest. It meant "pugnacious." It meant "decadent" (especially when applied to young men of means). It "frivolous." It meant "colorful." It meant "joyous." It meant "wild." It seems quite logical that 1920s queer men would have adopted such a term as a code word that then developed in the 1940s into an underground term for self-reference. More logical, at any rate, than the connection with Victorian callboys and the occasional application to a hobo's occasional (and doubtless often unwilling) buttboy. In a message dated 2/25/04 9:37:07 AM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: << If you've read the underground literature, then you're obviously in a much better position to judge than I am, Ron. And I do understand your objection to interpreting the title of that 1895 film, or of Cary Grant's line for that matter, as a full-blown use of the current meaning of "gay." I just wonder, particularly if the term "gay" appears so often in the underground literature, whether its contemporary use might have evolved from its use in contexts like the 1895 film, perhaps from the association of "gay" (meaning something like "outrageously giddy") behavior with homosexuals. But I suppose that's an argument from theoretical plausibility more than from linguistic fact. Joanne Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com >> From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Feb 25 21:59:12 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:12 -0500 Subject: authority for prescriptions In-Reply-To: <6.232b7520.2d6e4bd0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 02:04 PM 2/25/2004 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/24/04 9:40:39 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > ><< i don't think i can say this more clearly. if you want to think i'm a >blinkered prescriptivist asshole, so be it. >> > >I can't imagine anyone in her right mind thinking bad thoughts about Arnold >Zwicky, who surely is one of the nicest persons--and very best minds--in >linguistics in my generation. I apologize for any invidious implications, >which were >unintentional. > >CHOICE is a journal that, as I recall, uses very small type and contains >multitudinous entries. However, they could save more space by following the >practice found in LANGUAGE: simply using the authors' initials. Thus >"Shuy, Wolfram, >and Riley (1968)" would be just "SW&R." If CHOICE's general practice is to >refer to joint-authored books by the name of the first author alone, then I >would agree that the practice is in violation of what most (all?) style >manuals >say. Or maybe they just made a mistake? > >One related practice that can confuse things even more: authors sometimes use >the singular in references because they are thinking of the work and not the >authors, e.g., "Shuy, Wolfram, and Riley (1968) says, ..." As an editor, I >normally "correct" this to "say," if only because such authors never use the >singular when the very is "write." I do agree that this is a problem we constantly have to work with students (even grad students) on. They cite the first author, and sometimes any randomly picked author from a multiple set, as if that's enough. They also often use the singular verb, and they regularly cite only one part of a hyphenated name (even supposedly savvy American students do this!). I'm a prescriptivist on these rules too, simply because it's disrespectful of multiple authors, their collaborative contributions, and their right to make their own name order decisions. Of course, students don't know any better unless someone tells them; but this should have been done long before they get to us. And if journals and reviewers violate the rules, shame on them. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Feb 25 23:51:26 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:51:26 -0500 Subject: Earlier Underground Gay Literature In-Reply-To: <145.22ed514d.2d6e5362@aol.com> Message-ID: >What does NOT make sense to me is the idea that the occasional parallelistic >references in Victorian England to GAY BOYS = male prostitutes would then have >resurfaced in the 1920s tramp slang as GEYCAT (where homosexuality was not >even a part of its ordinary meaning) and that from there it leapt to1930s Gay >Urban Males .... It doesn't seem likely to me either. "Gay girl" and similar expressions where "gay" = "engaged in prostitution" apparently were used in the US as well as in Britain in the 19th century (several US citations in HDAS, right?) ... then I would suppose that "gay boy" would be a plausible extension (anywhere), meaning "male prostitute" (or "gigolo", or "pimp") (whether it actually had wide currency in any sense, I don't know). So if somebody were to assert (I do not assert it myself) that male homosexuals were called "gay" in -- say -- 1915 or 1920, I would not find it unbelievable or inexplicable (one would still want documentation of course). As for "gaycat", I have no idea of its origin, but the first citation in HDAS where it means "homosexual" is dated 1933, I believe, and I believe it is plausible that the "homosexual" meaning was grafted onto the previous "sidekick" sense on the basis of "gay" having some sexual meaning -- possibly like the modern "gay" = "homosexual", possibly a little more general/ambiguous -- before 1933. AFAIK, "prushun" (various spellings) was the word typically used specifically for a tramp's catamite (or boy-companion-and-likely-catamite). I have no very good idea of the etymology of this word either. I have seen several speculations which did not strike my fancy. -- Doug Wilson From slangman at PACBELL.NET Thu Feb 26 01:41:12 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:41:12 -0800 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: And then there was: make like an alligator and drag ass: To leave in a hurry "Hot Rod Terms in the Pasadena Area" Don Mansell and Joseph S. Hall American Speech, May 1954 p 100 Tom Dalzell Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking >tickets. > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > "Make like a tree?" > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" > That damn hotel "body bar"! I knew that I shouldn't have come back from >Panama smelling like a eucalpytus!!! > The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has this under "make like a--" and gives >"1950a+." The HDAS has 1958 for "make like bubblegum and blow," then 1968 for >"make like a tree and leave." > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Gettysburg Times - 3/18/1954 >...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles >kids who.....t be there) And "I dig it the leAst" (don't LIKE I it At All) A >nd think I'll pick up jon.. >Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 674 k > >Reno Evening Gazette - 9/23/1957 >...reAching for is "cuttings." "ShAll we MAKE LIKE A TREE And "Where did you >leArn All "I.....And the ImAginAtion, An excellent book for those who Are not >mAthemAticAlly.....Kohler. TAken together, these exAmples look LIKE A >right-turn trend Among liberAl.....you do not dig me, DAddy0, A jelly tot is LIKE .A >Jim DAndy. Only -younger. A Jim DAndy.. >Reno, Nevada Monday, September 23, 1957 573 k > >Appeal Democrat - 12/17/1958 >...MAKE the effort." "NeAt, beAt. So I'll MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." And he >did. We could.....As in the United StAtes. The AverAge-sized book would retA >il At hArdly less thAn the.....Those who leAd us into this chAnnel will be LIKE >the sorcerer who knew the Art of mAking.....IIM8 For A Fire-Free ChristmAs IK >ChristmAs TREE, lit All Usitrcu fires eAch over And.. >Marysville, California Wednesday, December 17, 1958 728 k > >Newport Daily News - 4/15/1954 >...As or "sweet." A fAvorite pun is "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los Angeles >kids who.....pAinted trim in the children's room, book cAses. Scouring >powder: HArd to beAt for.....pAin is mAking him fussy. He will probAbly LIKE to hAve >you rub his gums. He rubs them.....Anything he cAn get hold of, but he'd LIKE >to hAve you do some rubbing too. CleAn.. >Newport, Rhode Island Thursday, April 15, 1954 512 k > >Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/18/1954 >...bAses Aroucd RussiA. He mAde the or "MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve." Los A >ngeles kids who.....officiAls Are showing disLIKE for A phrAse LIKE "new look" >Sisenhower himselfj 1.....world Bikini-ism ThAt meAns swimsuits LIKE. those worn >Above by Bonnie Y eAger.. >Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, March 18, 1954 839 k > >Mountain Democrat - 3/4/1987 >...by DAve Cole HEY YOU, why dontchA MAKE LIKE A TREE And leAve HA, hA. I got >A million.....test wAs tAken, the CHP sAid. Church's new TREE to be plAnted >soon COLOMA The EmmAnuel.....Church in ColomA is About to get A new TREE to >replAce the venerAble old cedAr thAt.....contrActed to plAnt A young Incense CedA >r TREE in the sAme spot inhAbited by the former.. >Placerville, California Wednesday, March 04, 1987 500 k > > > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Thu Feb 26 02:37:01 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:37:01 -0500 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals Message-ID: Ya mean me gran'dad was really sayin' "face and begorra"? Se?n Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Tuesday, 24 February, 2004 13:00 Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: lisps and homosexuals On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:57 AM, i wrote: > we'd need more context to settle this, but my first reaction was that > what was being represented here was either dandified speech or drunken > speech or both. or, even more likely, now that i think about it, irish (drunk or sober). wasn't a lithp a conventional indication of working-class irish english, in print at this period (late 19th century, early 20th century)? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 02:48:16 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:48:16 EST Subject: authority for prescriptions Message-ID: Students are sloppy about all manner of things. I don't think that any of my students do not know the difference between one name and two, they just don't proof-read. In a message dated 2/25/04 5:20:17 PM, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: << I do agree that this is a problem we constantly have to work with students (even grad students) on. They cite the first author, and sometimes any randomly picked author from a multiple set, as if that's enough. They also often use the singular verb, and they regularly cite only one part of a hyphenated name (even supposedly savvy American students do this!). I'm a prescriptivist on these rules too, simply because it's disrespectful of multiple authors, their collaborative contributions, and their right to make their own name order decisions. Of course, students don't know any better unless someone tells them; but this should have been done long before they get to us. And if journals and reviewers violate the rules, shame on them. >> From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Feb 26 04:24:41 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:24:41 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Order of authors' names Message-ID: from the estimable editor anne mark of mit press, about: > ...the order of authors? names in LI. For a while we indeed had a > policy that names should be in alphabetical order. However, a few > years ago we changed the policy and now authors can list their names > in whatever order they prefer. We?ll incorporate the change the next > time we update the style sheet. so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Feb 26 04:31:00 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:31:00 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:38 PM -0500 2/24/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking >tickets. > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > "Make like a tree?" > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an anachronism, given the above date. Larry From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Feb 26 13:40:54 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:40:54 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Order of authors' names Message-ID: I've been checking around in biology, and instead of having the Principal Investigator listed last as my major professor in biology taught me and as I reported before, most journals in that field allow any order to be used also. In some cases, I don't think every person in the author list even has participated in the writing process. Some merely have submitted research input. Times they be a-changin? "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > from the estimable editor anne mark of mit press, about: > > > ...the order of authors? names in LI. For a while we indeed had a > > policy that names should be in alphabetical order. However, a few > > years ago we changed the policy and now authors can list their names > > in whatever order they prefer. We?ll incorporate the change the next > > time we update the style sheet. > > so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 16:08:27 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:08:27 EST Subject: troublesome line division Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:53:56 -0800, "Arnold M. Zwicky" writes > from our own paul mcfedries's Word Spy book (2004), p. 190: > > ...The use of the term was possibly inspired by the semi- > otician Umberto Eco's 1967 essay... > > line divisions courtesy of the editors, or (more likely) their > word-processing programs. > > what i want to know is: just how close did umberto eco come to being > an otician? A semi-otician treats hearing problems among tractor-trailer drivers. A little more seriously, I am curious as to whether Professor Eco would be amused by this typo. (Oddly, he need not speak English to understand it, since "semi" is from Latin). My opinion of him would be much lowered if he were not. OT - has anyone gone public claiming a direct descent from Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_ and the recent _Da Vinci Code_? For other accidental semioticianisms, there is the Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:00:22 EST post which reads "Cary Grant, a closest bisexual, ..." and the headline currently showing on AOL News which reads Crackdown on Shock Jocks Risky Tast for Astronauts - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 16:14:40 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:14:40 EST Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: In Louisville, Kentucky, in the early 1950's a local TV station (I think it was WAVE) had a locally-produced show every weekday at noon in which the host (I think his name was Ed Kallay, with a guess at the spelling) had two catchphrases: "So long like a hot dog" "See you 'round like a doughnut" - James A. Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Feb 26 19:32:47 2004 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:32:47 -0500 Subject: Three Inaugurations Message-ID: This announcement is for members in good standing of the American Dialect Society: We've been invited to three different inaugurations. For each we can designate a delegate to represent the Society (and to march toward the head of the procession, at least among learned societies, since we were founded in 1889). Aside from the procession and ceremony itself, there are ancillary events like luncheons and concerts. The delegate will be expected to provide her or his own academic attire, and her or his own travel expenses. In return, the delegate gets the opportunity to share in the festivities and meet lots of colleagues in the world of higher learning. The delegate's name also gets immortalized in the program of the inauguration. Here are the particulars of the inaugurations. If you are interested in representing ADS at one of these, please let me know soon, not via ADS-L but at my e-mail address: AAllan at aol.com. Wednesday, March 31, 10 a.m., Fort Worth, Texas: Inauguration of Victor J. Boschini, Jr. as tenth chancellor of Texas Christian U. Saturday, April 3, 2 p.m., Millersville, Pennsylvania: Inauguration of Francine G. McNairy as thirteenth president of Millersville U. Events begin Friday with luncheon, dinner, threatre production of "Glass Meangerie"; on Saturday there's a brunch at 11. All at no cost to the delegate, of course. Thursday, April 15, 3 p.m., Bloomington, Indiana: Inauguration of Adam W. Herbert as seventeenth president of Indiana U. Luncheon beforehand, at no cost to delegate, of course. So - if you're in the mood to celebrate, if you can spare the time and travel the distance, and if you're a current ADS member - let me know! Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Feb 27 01:27:35 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:27:35 EST Subject: Order of authors' names--need for an official policy? Message-ID: In a message dated 2/25/04 11:24:53 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: << so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. >> Does it seem worth doing something about? I'd be happy to take it up with the proper authorities at the American Dialect Society, but it is not easy to imagine what such a policy should (could?) say. LI's approach doesn't seem to have been a success. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 02:15:46 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:15:46 -0500 Subject: Fwd: "yestersol" Message-ID: An early nominee for the WOTY list, courtesy of a colleague on another list... --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:20:59 +0000 From: JohnM Subject: yestersol As someone who is following closely the Mars mission (and will almost certainly put a summary on my website) I couldn't help being fascinated by the new word 'yestersol' which NASA has invented (sol being a Martian day, 20 mins longer than ours). I have not as yet seen 'tosol' but it can't be far away. Now you can't have a word like this in many other languages. You can't in any Latin-derived languages, you can't in Greek or in German. The only language I know when you can have a similar construction is Hungarian (nap=day) tegnap=yesterday ->tegsol) and they are one better because they can have tomorrow, too! (holnap=tomorrow->holsol). Sorry for being so sad, but does anyone know any other languages that could have yestersol? -- JohnM Author of Brazil: Life, Blood, Soul http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/spaver.htm --- end forwarded text From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 27 03:01:13 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:01:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "like kissing your sister" 1931 (was ...A tie is like kissing your sister) Message-ID: Barry found the probable sports source of "A tie is like kissing your sister" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208C&L=ads-l&P=R3846 from 1954. But, the phrase was known before that. At least the basic premise, that "kissing your sister" wasn't exactly the "real thing." Using Newspaperarchive, .... 15 Oct. 1931 _Lime Springs (IA) Sun Herald_ page #=?/3 [an article about the Presbyterian Church] <> SC No doubt there's a West Virginia joke there. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Feb 27 05:12:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:12:04 EST Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: BRUNCH OED also has "brunch" in 1896. Perhaps this helps. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) New Oxford Item - 11/27/1896 ...is supposed to be the midday time between BREAKFAST and LUNCH. Fashion may be foolish.....is to issue invitations for a meal called "BRUNCH." This means a repast at 11 o'clock a.....it is quite safe to state that if the free LUNCH had not been knocked oat by the Eaines.. New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, November 27, 1896 707 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DIME This is on nba.com. Neither HDAS nor the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "dime," meaning an assist in basketball. (WWW.NBA.COM) Arenas Displays Wizardry Gilbert Arenas highlighted a 95-87 Washington win over Chicago with 21 points, 13 dimes and 12 boards. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: USA Today Article ... (For you non-basketball-holics, an assist is sometimes referred to as a dime. Thus, 35 cents, 3.5 dimes, 3.5 assists. Follow that?) But let's run it anyway. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.utah-jazz - Apr 19, 2000 by Absaraka - View Thread (13 articles) Re: A Rant on Fans what do I prize most in a basketball player? ... Kidd who can make a pass on a dime, but also ... he averaged just under 4 per game....Wilt's career assist average was ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Aug 15, 2000 by MJ - View Thread (80 articles) OTrib: Clunker vs. Kings again ... You can't play basketball like that ... point guard Earl Boykins had six of those dimes, but three came ... Adonal Foyle and Jiri Welsch each tallied a single assist. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.gs-warriors - Dec 23, 2002 by Allen L - View Thread (1 article) Re: I'll Say It Again: THE BEST BACKCOURT IN THE NATION ... the ultimate point guard by dropping 10 dimes and taking ... Iverson that he is part of a basketball team and ... They each have recorded at least one assist this year ... rec.sport.basketball.college - Dec 6, 1995 by Kim Hunt - View Thread (12 articles) Ralph Wiley on Thomas, Starbury, and other shots ... to underestimate Isiah's capabilities in any basketball area. ... He started driving and dishing dimes, dropping that little ... Thomas of Assist-I. Who cares how much ... alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks - Jan 8, 2004 by captainobvious - View Thread (2 articles) Very Early returns on the PG lotto ... Watson went off for 11 dimes in 18 minutes versus the Wizards, presumably to remind Blake of ... Otherwise Watson's assist numbers are more like Banks and Anthony. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba - Oct 19, 2003 by cLIeNUX user - View Thread (1 article) Re: Ruben, you got punked ... d wager that he continues to hog boards and drop mucho dimes until shaq ... question his rebounding numbers will drop when shaq returns, but his assist numbers may ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 4, 2002 by brinkm311 - View Thread (6 articles) Profile on Alvin at espn.com ... Alvin, meanwhile, dropped 13 dimes without a single turnover and added 14 points. ... triple-double against the Hawks and posting a 5.25-1 assist-turnover ratio ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.tor-raptors - Apr 5, 2001 by VicG - View Thread (5 articles) Sportsline: Anderson Annoyed With Pitino ... from point guard Kenny Anderson, who isn't even among the top 20 assist leaders in ... in the league, is disgusted with his slide down to about five dimes a game. ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Apr 14, 2000 by Way Of The Ray - View Thread (4 articles) Re: anybody see the half time report... ... of possessions? That's acutally good news. The suprising thing was his 1 assist. He is usually good for 6 dimes a night. He also ... alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 10, 1999 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 05:34:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:34:50 -0800 Subject: ordering of authors' names Message-ID: anne mark of mit press explains the abandonment of alphabetical order: >The change had to do with academic culture. Some authors felt that other >linguists (including potential employers and tenure committees) assume >that the first-named author of a paper is the primary author. Sometimes >when author X considered himself or herself the primary author of a >paper yet was named second, alphabetically, after author A, the authors >asked to insert a footnote reading "The authors' names appear in >alphabetical order." This seemed awkward, so we finally decided to >simply let the authors themselves determine the order of their names. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From slangman at PACBELL.NET Fri Feb 27 14:01:07 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:01:07 -0800 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: If you tune in to the NCAA Tournament on CBS, you might hear some words or phrases you never have heard before. And they won't be coming from Bob Knight. The culprit will be CBS studio analyst Clark Kellogg, who has a language all his own when it comes to describing a basketball game. You might have caught Kellogg's unique act on ESPN, where he has worked as an analyst since 1988. In Kellogg's vernacular, a player doesn't make an assist, he "drops a dime." A really nifty assist is "dropping a shiny dime." Kellogg picked up some of the terms during his college (Ohio State) and NBA (Indiana Pacers) careers, but most of the catchy phrases come from shoot-arounds and summer pickup games. Tom Dalzell Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >BRUNCH > > OED also has "brunch" in 1896. Perhaps this helps. > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >New Oxford Item - 11/27/1896 >...is supposed to be the midday time between BREAKFAST and LUNCH. Fashion may >be foolish.....is to issue invitations for a meal called "BRUNCH." This means >a repast at 11 o'clock a.....it is quite safe to state that if the free LUNCH >had not been knocked oat by the Eaines.. >New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, November 27, 1896 707 k > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- >DIME > > This is on nba.com. Neither HDAS nor the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has >"dime," meaning an assist in basketball. > >(WWW.NBA.COM) >Arenas Displays Wizardry >Gilbert Arenas highlighted a 95-87 Washington win over Chicago with 21 >points, 13 dimes and 12 boards. > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Re: USA Today Article >... (For you non-basketball-holics, an assist is sometimes referred to as a >dime. Thus, >35 cents, 3.5 dimes, 3.5 assists. Follow that?) But let's run it anyway. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.utah-jazz - Apr 19, 2000 by Absaraka - View Thread >(13 articles) > >Re: A Rant on Fans >what do I prize most in a basketball player? ... Kidd who can make a pass on >a dime, but >also ... he averaged just under 4 per game....Wilt's career assist average >was ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Aug 15, 2000 by MJ - View Thread >(80 articles) > >OTrib: Clunker vs. Kings again >... You can't play basketball like that ... point guard Earl Boykins had six >of those dimes, >but three came ... Adonal Foyle and Jiri Welsch each tallied a single assist. >... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.gs-warriors - Dec 23, 2002 by Allen L - View Thread >(1 article) > >Re: I'll Say It Again: THE BEST BACKCOURT IN THE NATION >... the ultimate point guard by dropping 10 dimes and taking ... Iverson that >he is part of >a basketball team and ... They each have recorded at least one assist this >year ... >rec.sport.basketball.college - Dec 6, 1995 by Kim Hunt - View Thread (12 >articles) > >Ralph Wiley on Thomas, Starbury, and other shots >... to underestimate Isiah's capabilities in any basketball area. ... He >started driving and >dishing dimes, dropping that little ... Thomas of Assist-I. Who cares how >much ... >alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks - Jan 8, 2004 by captainobvious - View >Thread (2 articles) > >Very Early returns on the PG lotto >... Watson went off for 11 dimes in 18 minutes versus the Wizards, presumably >to remind >Blake of ... Otherwise Watson's assist numbers are more like Banks and >Anthony. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba - Oct 19, 2003 by cLIeNUX user - View Thread (1 >article) > >Re: Ruben, you got punked >... d wager that he continues to hog boards and drop mucho dimes until shaq >... question his >rebounding numbers will drop when shaq returns, but his assist numbers may >... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 4, 2002 by brinkm311 - View Thread >(6 articles) > >Profile on Alvin at espn.com >... Alvin, meanwhile, dropped 13 dimes without a single turnover and added 14 >points. ... triple-double >against the Hawks and posting a 5.25-1 assist-turnover ratio ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.tor-raptors - Apr 5, 2001 by VicG - View Thread (5 >articles) > >Sportsline: Anderson Annoyed With Pitino >... from point guard Kenny Anderson, who isn't even among the top 20 assist >leaders in ... in >the league, is disgusted with his slide down to about five dimes a game. ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics - Apr 14, 2000 by Way Of The Ray - >View Thread (4 articles) > >Re: anybody see the half time report... >... of possessions? That's acutally good news. The suprising thing was >his 1 assist. He is usually good for 6 dimes a night. He also ... >alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers - Nov 10, 1999 > > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 14:54:42 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:42 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) In-Reply-To: <403F4DA3.5060301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: Here's a little earlier: THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in the five games they did play together that they are compatible. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Feb 27 15:04:02 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:04:02 -0600 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between an assist in basketball and a dime? Gerald Cohen At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > >> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: > >Here's a little earlier: > >THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS >April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION >SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > >Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be >effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those >dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in >the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > >Fred Shapiro From uncmlt at JUNO.COM Fri Feb 27 12:05:55 2004 From: uncmlt at JUNO.COM (MILT COHEN) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:05:55 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: Perhaps some of these "dime" plays aren't worth a plugged nickle - maybe. Milt Cohen Chatsworth, Ca. On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:42 -0500 Fred Shapiro writes: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > > > From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan > Cahill: > > Here's a little earlier: > > THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS > April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION > SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > > Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be > effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of > those > dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed > in > the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > > Fred Shapiro > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 15:36:03 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:36:03 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One does something precisely 'on the money' and even more precisely 'on a a dime' ('to stop on a dime'). A good assist has that accuracy component. dInIs >This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between >an assist in basketball and a dime? > >Gerald Cohen > > >At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: >> >>> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by Dan Cahill: >> >>Here's a little earlier: >> >>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS >>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION >>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b >> >>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be >>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those >>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in >>the five games they did play together that they are compatible. >> >>Fred Shapiro From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Feb 27 16:57:24 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:57:24 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) Message-ID: I first remember hearing "Make like like a tree and leave." back in the 1950s. I heard it from my friend Richard Loomis. I always associated it with jazz slang since his father and uncle had both played in big bands, and Dick used to use a lot of jazz slang. I still suspect that it comes from this venue if for no other reason than it sounds like it although I have no evidence for this. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:31 PM Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 7:38 PM -0500 2/24/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > It was at the end of the day today (another day wasted like so many > >others) and I didn't know if anyone was still waiting for a hearing on parking > >tickets. > > "Make like a tree," the guard told me. > > "Make like a tree?" > > "Make like a tree and get outta here. Make like a tree and leave!" > > "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in > Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who > gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or > his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make > like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a > tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an > anachronism, given the above date. > > Larry From debaron at UIUC.EDU Fri Feb 27 17:51:23 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:51:23 -0600 Subject: make like a tree Message-ID: I think I began using "Make like a noun and decline" around 1960--I'd just started Latin-- in response to the popularity of "Make like a tree and leave," which seemed relatively new at the time. Dennis Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:02:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:02:41 -0500 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: <8E7BCF3E-694D-11D8-ACF7-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: >Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. dInIs >I think I began using "Make like a noun and decline" around 1960--I'd >just started Latin-- in response to the popularity of "Make like a tree >and leave," which seemed relatively new at the time. > >Dennis > > >Dennis Baron office: >217-244-0568 >Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 >Department of English fax: >217-333-4321 >University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 >debaron at uiuc.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:08:44 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:08:44 -0800 Subject: Order of authors' names--need for an official policy? In-Reply-To: <1a4.2070d8a6.2d6ff707@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 26, 2004, at 5:27 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/25/04 11:24:53 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > writes: > > << so now, it seems, *nobody* has an actually stated policy. >> > > Does it seem worth doing something about? I'd be happy to take it up > with the > proper authorities at the American Dialect Society, but it is not easy > to > imagine what such a policy should (could?) say. LI's approach doesn't > seem to > have been a success. i can't see a policy that authors would find acceptable. the LSA lets people order themselves as they wish (in Language and on papers presented at meetings), the ADS does the same, and the AAAS, and (i discover by looking at some back issues of Daedalus) the American Academy, and every book publisher that i know of. and so on. it's yet another case of constraints in conflct (alphabetical order, order of descending significance in the world, order of descending contribution to the work, Grand Old Person Last out of politeness -- i'm almost surprised we haven't found a work with names ordered phonologically, by number of syllables, for instance), with different resolutions of the conflicts in different contexts. this is, like it or not, just the way the world works. you could try to prescribe some universal resolution, but the users of the system are going to rebel, and for good reason, because they have other goals and these are important to them. given this background, it's distressing that tenure review committees should (occasionally -- very occasionally, i hope) be weighting first-authored papers more heavily than others. but then tenure review committees have been known to mindlessly count pages too. the committees, especially at high levels of review, tend to get desperate at the size of the task (i can remember, with dismay, looking at files for a hundred or more cases) and hope for easy gauges of worth. but there's no substitute for trying to understand the context and content of a candidate's work. i doubt that a prescription from any of our organizations would work to eliminate such instances of human laziness and stupidity. it's up to those of us in academic institutions to speak up. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Feb 27 18:12:57 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:12:57 -0800 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Feb 27, 2004, at 10:02 AM, dInIs wrote: >> Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. at some point i heard this on a list of world's worst pick-up lines (though i suspected at the time that no one had actually *used* it -- but then the extent of human folly is enormous, so ya never know). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Feb 27 19:39:39 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:39:39 -0500 Subject: Request for Newspaperarchive, ProQuest Searches Message-ID: I seem to have lost my access to the good interface for Newspaperarchive. Is anyone with such access willing to tell me what are the earliest respective occurrences in that database for each of the following two quotes: You can't be too rich or too thin [probably best just to search for "too rich or too thin"] Today is the first day of the rest of your life [probably best just to search for "first day of the rest of your life"] Also, is anyone with access to Wall Street Journal Historical and/or Christian Science Monitor Historical willing to search one or both of these for earliest occurrences of the same quotes? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Feb 27 21:04:08 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:04:08 -0500 Subject: Request for Newspaperarchive, ProQuest Searches Message-ID: Newspaperarchive--10 August, 1970 "a woman can never be too rich or too thin." 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." Sam > Is anyone with such access willing to tell me what are the earliest > respective occurrences in that database for each of the following two > quotes: > > You can't be too rich or too thin [probably best just to search for "too > rich or too thin"] > > Today is the first day of the rest of your life [probably best just to > search for "first day of the rest of your life"] > > Also, is anyone with access to Wall Street Journal Historical and/or > Christian Science Monitor Historical willing to search one or both > of these for earliest occurrences of the same quotes? > Fred R. Shapiro From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 27 21:32:14 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:32:14 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: Since the newspaper passage quoted refers to the dimes as "dropping", perhaps the phrase was influenced by the expression "to drop a dime" -- in NYC, this means to inform on someone, or report someone's misdeeds; the image is dropping a dime into a payphone. I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC at least the cost of a pay-phone call has gone up to a quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train is still "choo-choo". So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the payphone altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp in oblivion. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" Date: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:36 am Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) > One does something precisely 'on the money' and even more precisely > 'on a a dime' ('to stop on a dime'). A good assist has that accuracy > component. > > dInIs > > > > >This is no doubt a naive question, but what's the connection between > >an assist in basketball and a dime? > > > >Gerald Cohen > > > > > >At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: > >>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Tom Dalzell wrote: > >> > >>> From the Chicago Sun-Times, March 18, 1994, page 132, by > Dan Cahill: > >> > >>Here's a little earlier: > >> > >>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS > >>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION > >>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b > >> > >>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be > >>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of > those>>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the > two showed in > >>the five games they did play together that they are compatible. > >> > >>Fred Shapiro > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Feb 27 21:37:31 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <99c1749a2285.9a228599c174@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 27, 2004 at 04:32:14PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > > I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC >at least the cost of a pay-phone call has gone up to a >quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train is still "choo-choo". >So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the payphone >altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp >in oblivion. "drop a dime" and its relatives are still quite common. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Feb 27 21:50:16 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:50:16 -0500 Subject: make like a tree In-Reply-To: <92395450-6950-11D8-8957-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Now that you mention it, I think that's where I got it. dInIs PS: Of course, I used it a lot in my youth, and, you're right, it never worked. >On Feb 27, 2004, at 10:02 AM, dInIs wrote: > >>>Better'n makin like a verb and conjugatin. > >at some point i heard this on a list of world's worst pick-up lines >(though i suspected at the time that no one had actually *used* it -- >but then the extent of human folly is enormous, so ya never know). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Feb 27 23:31:33 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:31:33 -0500 Subject: sweep the kitchen Message-ID: Back in July '03 Barry posted long lists of terms from "hash house slang" from newspapers. One, from 1931, a posting headed "Graveyard Stew", had the term "sweep the kitchen" as the call for an order of hash. Another, I think under the heading "hash house slang" was from 1886 and included jocular derogatory/disgusting names for dishes, (so the tradition is old,) but not "sweep the kitchen". The girl from Rector's, by George Rector, Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, Page, 1927, is reminiscences by an early 20th C. NYC restauranteur. I was looking at it because a cabaret he ran in the 1910s, also called Rector's, had an early jazz band. Nothing very useful in that respect, but he mentions the vaudeville team of Smith & Dale, and their act involving a surly and incompetent waiter and a hassled customer. The customer orders hash, the waiter calls out "sweep the kitchen". (p. 221.) According to The Encyclopedia of Vaudeville by Anthony Slide, Westport, Conn., Greenwood Press, 1994, Smith and Dale met in 1898 when teenagers, and began their restaurant sketch in 1919. Is there anyone among us old enough to remember Smith and Dale appearing on the Ed Sullivan show in the 1950s? -- other than me and Mike Salovesh, if he is still following our comical misadventures here -- it's been far too long since we have heard from him. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 04:43:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:43:09 -0500 Subject: Pot Sticker (1973); Dark Horse (1822) Message-ID: POT STICKER Some OED-type person asked me about "pot sticker." I'll do some work on it tomorrow (Saturday). I was hoping to first try the lazy method and see when the LOS ANGELES TIMES would have it, but "pot sticker" is not there through 1957. Merriam-Webster's 11th has 1975 for "a crescent-shaped dumpling filled usu. with pork, steamed, and then fried." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) As the Year 4671 Arrives, A New Wave of Snobbery Tempts Eager Diners; A New Wave of Snobbery Tempts Diners By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 1, 1973. p. H1 (2 pages): Pg. H14: _GUO TIE_ _(Fried Jiao-zi)_ Leftover boiled dumplings can be refrigerated and served fried at another meal. When fried they are called Guo tie which literally means "pot stickers." --------------------------------------------------------------- DARK HORSE "Dark horse" is for those political dictionary people out there. "Dark horse" is in William Safire's column this Sunday, and it's wrong. (This is embarrassing. He can't pay Kathleen Miller a few extra bucks?) (NY TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/magazine/29ONLANGUAGE.html There is one word that Kerry and his connotation-conscious top staff deliberately resist: ''I don't like the word front-runner,'' Shrum told The Times, ''and John Kerry abominates it.'' This is one of the many horse-racing terms adopted by political writers. At the national convention in Boston, will anyone bolt? To use a term coined by Benjamin Disraeli in a novel, will a dark horse emerge? Is Kerry a shoo-in? (That's when corrupt jockeys form a ring to bet on a long shot, hold their mounts back and shoo in the horse that they have chosen to win. Do not spell it shoe-in; a shoo-in is a race in which the winner was the only one trying.) (OED) 8. Of whom or which nothing is generally known; about whose powers, etc., the public are ?in the dark?. dark horse (Racing slang), a horse about whose racing powers little is known; hence fig. a candidate or competitor of whom little is known or heard, but who unexpectedly comes to the front. In U.S. Politics, a person not named as a candidate before a convention, who unexpectedly receives the nomination, when the convention has failed to agree upon any of the leading candidates. 1831 DISRAELI Yng. Duke v. (Farmer), A dark horse, which had never been thought of..rushed past the grand stand in sweeping triumph. 1860 Sat. Rev. IX. 593/1 A Headship..often given by the College conclaves to a man who has judiciously kept himself dark. 1865 Sketches from Camb. 36 (Hoppe) Every now and then a dark horse is heard of, who is supposed to have done wonders at some obscure small college. 1884 in Harper's Mag. Aug. 472/1 A simultaneous turning toward a ?dark horse?. 1885 A. BERESFORD-HOPE in Pall Mall G. 19 Mar. 10/1 Two millions of dark men..whose ignorance and stupidity could hardly be grasped. 1888 Boston (Mass.) Jrnl. 19 June 5/4 That a dark horse is likely to come out of such a complicated situation as this is most probable. 1891 N. GOULD Double Event 8 When he won the Regimental Cup with Rioter, a dark horse he had specially reserved to discomfort them. 1893 Standard 17 Apr. 6/6 Irish Wake, a ?dark? son of Master Kildare. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Edinburgh Advertiser - 9/24/1822 ...s man won What is termed an outside or a DARK HORSE always tells well for heavy.....had strangely missed this Swap was a better HORSE than the Haphazard colt belonging to.....the same owner (Mr. and that HORSE having beat some very good ones in a.. Edinburgh, Midlothian Tuesday, September 24, 1822 594 k Col 2: What is termed an _outside_ or a dark horse always tells well for heavy betters. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 04:58:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:58:49 -0500 Subject: Today is first day of rest of your life (1969) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Feb 28 13:47:35 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: <200402280500.i1S50Cvq002244@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry sez: > "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in > Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who > gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or > his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make > like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a > tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an > anachronism, given the above date. My recollection of the movie has the big, dumb leader of the gang of bullies saying it, and I think then his followers react, but non-verbally. This is part of a running gag: he also gives a list as (more or less) "Number one... B... fourth..." -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 17:58:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:58:09 EST Subject: First 100 Years Hardest (1918); Genius & Inspiration & Perspiration (1898, 1901) Message-ID: Just checking a few more of Gregory Titelman's RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS with Newspaperarchive. Titleman has 1928 for "the first one hundred years are the hardest" and 1914 for "genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration." The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS gives this to Thomas Edison, c. 1903. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE FIRST HUNDRED YEARS ARE THE HARDEST Perhaps coined by the famous cartoonist Briggs in 1918? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Bridgeport Telegram - 7/29/1918 ...Moran comedy will also be shown. The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....AMBiTrorJ OP LIFE TIME is I'M AT Ti-tE VERY FIRST IN THE IT'S I FIGURE, LOST 5ooo GOLF.....1 "Dolly's Vacation." >T TAKS.S ABOUT YEARS To LEARN To THE ot-D eve OM THE MY.....speeches were mudo. The speakers were FIRST Selectman Cheny, B. McCarthv and Kev P.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Monday, July 29, 1918 539 k Pg. 7, col. 2 comic: _The First Hundred Years Are the Hardest_ Drawn for The Telegram by Briggs Bridgeport Telegram - 8/6/1918 ...PREMIER'S WORD TO ALL BRITAIN The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....In September and of I tnrer, was 70 YEARS old last SaturHilsi number are new.....age is its guarantee. For more than thirty YEARS it has been in constant use for the.....and which has been in use for over 30 YEARS, has borne the Signature of Chas, H.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, August 06, 1918 593 k Bridgeport Telegram - 8/19/1918 ...FIRST Inning Allow Yanks to Win The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....i Slin-wood hy h'irst. on oil' L', (iff 1', FIRST (nt JJrldKeport I. on liases, New York.....lUli r'oi'CillKI'IKI'SIK, N. Y., t S.-Two HUNDRED and s-'veatv horses are catered in.....Iron li'tniii" at J Hilnlh. Braves Capture FIRST, 3-1; Cubs Take Second, 3-1 CHIC.UiO.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Monday, August 19, 1918 601 k Manitoba Morning Free Press - 8/24/1918 ...trouble Is a service station Job. THE FIRST HUNDRED YEARS ARE HARDEST Considerably.....can afire, If wo did not let them huvo It FIRST, you understnnd why an airplane la.....has been in the accessory business thirteen YEARS, which makes many of his friends wonder.....company, Mr. Nearing has for the past six YEARS been in charge of sales for N. J.. Winnipeg, Manitoba Saturday, August 24, 1918 893 k Pg. 13, cols. 4-5 headline: _THE FIRST HUNDRED_ _YEARS ARE HARDEST_ Bridgeport Telegram - 9/3/1918 ...SPECIALISTS BLDG. NOBLE -162 The FIRST HUNDRED YEARS Are the Hardest Drawn for The.....Before Mammoth Crowd at Hartford Attend FIRST Charter Oak Races Walter Cox Piloting.....World Series 'tho lend securerl In recent YEARS by tho American League teams Is.....which failed to finish in either of atho FIRST two heats because of. enSeine trouble.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Tuesday, September 03, 1918 653 k Coshocton Tribune - 2/5/1919 ...finds. In the new subway. That t.hp FIRST, HUNDRED YEARS. Arc tho. hardest. LIFE IS.....And .give way lo twitching. JJlte f did at FIRST. CJoinE down town. In the now subway.....and says, his manner stern and grim, up a HUNDRED bucks. Mechanics, men of wondrous.....have be local affairs as they were forty YEARS ago and national and even international.. Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, February 05, 1919 982 k (Pg. 4, col. 1. The syndicated "New York Day-By-Day," by O. O. McIntyre--ed.) Going down town In the new subway Is just as easy But one finds In the new subway That the first hundred years Are the hardest. Appleton Post Crescent - 4/20/1920 ...you wish. Cartoonist Briggs says "the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the hardest." and so be it.....down wealth and punish the rich. HOOVER'S FIRST Sl'OXSOR The New York World, the FIRST.....down. Our savace forefathers, thousands of YEARS ago. dlnod on wild cabbage. Inose hond.....conductor le Bedford Gazette - 10/6/1922 ...raised over the question whether "the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the longest" or "the FIRST.....We hazard the '-opinion that, the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS are the most plausible.....BELL TELEPHONE ENGINEER DR. BELL MADF THE FIRST WIRELESS TELEPHONE APPARATUS Having.....HUNDRED YEARS the hardest.. Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, October 06, 1922 930 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GENIUS & INSPIRATION & PERSPIRATION Fred Shapiro has probably added some sweat to this. I think this makes porn star Ron Jeremy the great genius of our age, but I digress. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Herald - 5/18/1898 ...says Thomas A. EDISON. and he adds: for GENIUS being inspired, INSPIRATION is ia most.....she would ii IbC like smiling: so we lt; Book Buyers. During the recent book sale In.....cases another word for PERSPIRATION. As the foremost example in the.....world of one type of GENIUS. Mr. EDISON is aa authority on tbe.. Delphos, Ohio Wednesday, May 18, 1898 909 k Idaho Daily Statesman - 5/6/1901 ...drlvthe session of the International Mining PERSPIRATION." People who take apply to the.....as fate." made a part heredf. And you are GENIUS is another name for hard TJvork.....and answer said complaint as i.s 1 per cent INSPIRATION and 99 H. I. M'ELFRESH, held in.....that if you fail to aprhonest work.' says EDISON, pear.. Boise, Idaho Monday, May 06, 1901 956 k Gazette And Bulletin - 1/25/1913 ...laziness Mr: wid. "Talk about GENIUS being PERSPIRATION instead of INSPIRATION Why, when.....But Ws friend prevented rwn. "The same Text Book, .hymns and is what the big ad. said.....reading fioiu tli0 Bible andfrom the text book, "Science and Health With Key to the.....the Century club In New York about a lazy GENIUS. He la.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, January 25, 1913 820 k Iowa City Citizen - 10/21/1918 ...of Edison's success. "GENIUS is 2 per cent INSPIRATION and per cent PERSPIRATION.....The story of the life of this remarkable GENIUS reads like a romance, yet his.....Recreation, the final triumph of the Edison GENIUS in the line of the perfect.. Iowa City, Iowa Monday, October 21, 1918 797 k Washington Post - 5/10/1915 ...IB 1 per rent INSPIRATION and 99 [KM cent PERSPIRATION. This, in turn, 'cuds the New.....will succeed in bringing forth a GENIUS. But the kindred truth that GENIUS has.....there may be cases in which no amount of PERSPIRATION .....a desire to partake of the evi dence. GENIUS AND WORK. reci'iit meeting to (lo.. Washington, District Of Columbia Monday, May 10, 1915 841 k Lancaster Daily Eagle - 9/18/1917 ...10 -If' A. [Says GENIUS is 95 Peicant PERSPIRATION and 5 Percent INSPIRATION.....of what. Thomas Iv Rd recently said: "GENIUS is fir. ceftt. PERSPIRATION and five.....for his supporting cast and working staff "PERSPIRATION never harmed a healthy smiled.. Lancaster, Ohio Tuesday, September 18, 1917 615 k Coshocton Daily Age - 12/19/1903 ...Sir Arthur Sullivan that INSPIRATION is PERSPIRATION.' I don't believe in the old.....bear more certainly the marks of real GENIUS than his maglnficent and mystic music.....as much on stick-at-ltlve ness, as on INSPIRATION, then other toilers in all the.. Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, December 19, 1903 743 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 3/29/1904 ...X. Y., Feb. 17? 1900. GENIUS is partly INSPIRATION, but mostly PERSPIRATION. Kdison.....often remarked that the children of a great GENIUS seldom exhibit corresponding powers.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Tuesday, March 29, 1904 858 k Sandusky Register - 2/11/1911 ...of his remark that GENIUS is per cent, INSPIRATION aud 98 per cen PERSPIRATION. BODY.. Sandusky, Ohio Saturday, February 11, 1911 680 k Iowa City Citizen - 8/20/1917 ...the price of Hie GENIUS and two thirds of INSPIRATION is PERSPIRATION. The same is true.. Iowa City, Iowa Monday, August 20, 1917 752 k Indianapolis Star - 10/15/1916 ...it Is true tjiat 'GENIUS Is 95 per cont PERSPIRATION and only C per cent INSPIRATION.....1 have kept a memorandum of all facts I my book on 'The Artificial Waterways of the.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 15, 1916 923 k Elyria Chronicle - 8/27/1907 ...Homer Bates in Cantcry. NUG3ETS. GENIUS Is INSPIRATION. Talent Is PERSPIRATION. Do not.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, August 27, 1907 779 k Lime Springs Sun - 11/10/1904 ...Edison says that GENIUS is partly INSPIRATION, but moatly PERSPIRATION. Gold.. Lime Springs, Iowa Thursday, November 10, 1904 442 k From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Feb 28 21:38:15 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:38:15 EST Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:32:14 -0500, George Thompson writes > Since the newspaper passage quoted refers to the dimes as "dropping", > perhaps the phrase was influenced by the expression "to drop a dime" -- in > NYC, this means to inform on someone, or report someone's misdeeds; the image > is dropping a dime into a payphone. > > I was about to call this expression obsolete, since in NYC at least the cost > of a pay-phone call has gone up to a quarter; but then, kid-talk for a train > is still "choo-choo". So maybe "to drop a dime" will live on when the > payphone altogether has joined the steam locomotive and the oil lamp in > oblivion. or perhaps the reference is to putting a dime into not a payphone but a pay toilet. I don't know if pay toilets in the US always cost a dime, but a man born ca. 1920 told me that as a child he and his buddies would offer, for a nickel, to slip under the door of a pay booth and unlock it from the inside. About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant "I have to go to the bathroom". - James A. Landau From mailinglist at JIMMYMULLAN.COM Sat Feb 28 22:18:41 2004 From: mailinglist at JIMMYMULLAN.COM (James Mullan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:18:41 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <190.2664a21a.2d726447@aol.com> Message-ID: At 16:38 2/28/04, James A. Landau wrote, in "Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question)": [snip] >About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they >are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant >"I have to go to the bathroom". High-priced relief, indeed. However, by 1980, British currency had been decimalised, from the old ?1=250 pence=20shillings, to ?1=100p (the unit being referred to in daily usage as a "pee"), and the shilling was no more, being then equal to 5p ("five pee"). Whilst there might have been inflation in the actual cost of use of "public toilets" as they are known in the UK, the expression was, in fact: "to spend a penny", and this term remains in usage today. It also gave rise to the old toilet wall rhyme: Here I sit, broken hearted paid a penny, only farted. Jimmy From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Feb 28 23:00:43 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:00:43 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040228171022.04045450@www.jimmymullan.com> Message-ID: Or those of us who remember US prices: Here I sit all broken-hearted Paid a dime to shit and only farted dInIs >At 16:38 2/28/04, James A. Landau wrote, in "Re: Brunch (1896); Dime >(1995)---(Question)": >[snip] > >>About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets (whatever they >>are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to spend a shillng" meant >>"I have to go to the bathroom". > >High-priced relief, indeed. However, by 1980, British currency had been >decimalised, from the old ?1=250 pence=20shillings, to ?1=100p (the unit >being referred to in daily usage as a "pee"), and the shilling was no more, >being then equal to 5p ("five pee"). >Whilst there might have been inflation in the actual cost of use of "public >toilets" as they are known in the UK, the expression was, in fact: "to >spend a penny", and this term remains in usage today. > >It also gave rise to the old toilet wall rhyme: >Here I sit, broken hearted >paid a penny, only farted. > >Jimmy From douglas at NB.NET Sat Feb 28 23:17:53 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:17:53 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Here I sit all broken-hearted >Paid a dime to shit and only farted Recorded by A. W. Read, 1928: a non-mercenary version: Here I sit all broken hearted Came to shit and only farted ... described as "very popular". -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Feb 28 23:21:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:21:35 -0500 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) > or perhaps the reference is to putting a dime into not a payphone but a pay > toilet. > > I don't know if pay toilets in the US always cost a dime, but a man born ca. > 1920 told me that as a child he and his buddies would offer, for a nickel, to > slip under the door of a pay booth and unlock it from the inside. - James A. Landau US newspapers from 1952 show the Pennsylvania railroad was trying to get Congressional legislation to raise the price of pay toilets in their stations from a nickel to a dime. So, it's likely all pay toilets in US were only a nickel up until that time. SC From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Feb 29 01:26:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:26:56 -0800 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! Message-ID: a small chapter in the annals of verbal magic... letter in today's (2/28/04) Palo Alto Daily News, arguing that "there are sound reasons to reject Regional Measure 2, which would hike most Bay bridge tolls to $3 to fund better roads and transit". reason #1 is: "First, it's not regional." One paragraph down this is clarified: "The seven Bay counties voting on Regional Measure 2 are not a region. Check your dictionary. Check the Bay's growing killer commute. It's now from 20 counties and counting..." there are two parts to the writer's complaint. one is not linguistic: he wants public transportation benefits to cover the whole 20-county region, not merely the 9-county "metropolitan area" (San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Marin, Napa, Alameda, Contra Costa, Solano; please don't complain to *me* about 7 vs. 9 [oh hell, Santa Cruz and Napa are out of it, because they don't have any of the relevant bridges]). well, i want a staff of intelligent, linguistically trained, sexy, devoted houseboys, but i really don't think that's going to happen. on the other hand, this is a discussable question: whether the costs and benefits should cover 5, 7, 9, 15, or 20 counties (all the way south to San Luis Obispo!). the linguistic part has to do with what constitutes a *region*. there is a technical distinction between a (metropolitan) area, as defined by the u.s. census, and a region, as in the "regions of the u.s." (new england, middle atlantic, etc.), and this distinction is reflected (in very diluted fashion) in some dictionaries. the AHD4, for example, gives "area" as a synonym of "region", but says that "regional" refers to a "*large* geographical region" (emphasis mine). still, it's incredibly silly to be telling your neighbors to go look at dictionary definitions to decide whether they'll vote for a ballot measure -- even if the dictionaries do validate the technical distinction in question, however delicately. this is a kind of verbal magic. surely someone is collecting cases where people said that some substantive question could be decided just by looking things up in "the dictionary"... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), don't call me shirley From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Feb 29 02:59:40 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:59:40 -0600 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995) Message-ID: For what it's worth, when I was a city cop (Decatur, Ill., 69-74) one "droppped a dime" on someone by making an anonynmous call from a pay phone (for a dime) to the local PD. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 03:55:44 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:55:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of "shoot the breeze" 1937 Message-ID: OED has 1941. 10 June, 1937. _Indiana(PA)Weekly Messenger_ 10/1 [A fictional detective story] "Wait a minute, Dad," I said. "I'm no cop. I just wanted to shoot the breeze with you." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 04:47:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:47:48 EST Subject: Pot Sticker (1968); READEX Early American Newspapers Message-ID: You do parking tickets all week and get one day to do research in the New York Public Library, and it's certainly a bit of heaven. You try to sleep late, but David Shulman calls you in the morning to be at the library. He's got "good news." It turns out ot be more poems. You request some books to research "pot sticker." But the books aren't at the library. They're "off-site." And the library is closed Sunday, and closed Monday, and it'll be ordered on Tuesday--well, maybe late next week you can actually get a book. So then you go to the microfilm room, and you order a microfilm, and one hour later they bring you the wrong microfilm. And it's too late to re-order it. So then, after researching "pot sticker," you're in the mood for Chinese, so you go to your old cheap Chinese restaurant, Garden Won Chinese Noodle Shop, 12 East 42nd Street. But it's closed. A sign in the window reads: CLOSED BY ORDER OF THE COMMISSIONER OF HEALTH AND MENTAL HYGIENE. Life in New York City is just great. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- READEX "EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS" http://www.readex.com/scholarl/earlamnp.html I checked this a few days ago. "Early American Newspapers (1690-1876) Digital Edition" was "Coming first quarter 2004." This is very important coverage for this period of American history. I'd like to check for "cocktail," "eggnog," "fish house punch," "bakery," "johnnycake," "election cake," and much more. First quarter of 2004 means January-February-March. A few days? I checked the Readex site again. It now says "Coming second quarter 2004." That means April-May-June. Which probably means July. Which probably means the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK won't be able to use it. Oh well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- POT STICKER The Whole Foods Market at the new Time Warner Center here in NYC sells "Ling Ling Pot Stickers," but it contains no panda meat. NYU has a good selection of Chinese cookbooks thanks to the Cecily Brownstone acquisition of its Fales Collection, but that's not open weekends or weeknights. For now, this will have to do. Again, Merriam-Webster has 1975. HOW TO COOK AND EAT IN CHINESE by Buwei Yang Chao London: Faber and Faber 2nd revised edition 1968 (The first edition is 1945. I didn't have time to check that--ed.) Pg. 253: 20.6B. POT STICKERS Pot Stickers, a favourite Northern food, are simply _Chiao-tzu_ grilled on a griller. The skins and the stuffing are made in the same way. As a variation, the skin may be made by rolling the dough into large sheets aboit 1/16 inch thick, or thinner, and cutting out round pieces with a cookie cutter about 3 1/2 inches in diameter. Then wrap in the stuffing as in Fig. 7. With a little stretching you form _chiao-tzu_ about 3/4-in. wide by 4-in. long. Preheat your electric griller to 350 deg. F, with 2 tb.-sp. salad oil over it. Lay the formed _chiao-tzu_ in close contact with each other, so that with a 9-by-14-in. griller you can grill about 30 pot stickets at one time. Grill for 5 min., with lid on. Open the lid and brush the tops with a wetted pastry brush and grill 5 min. more. Turn up temperature to 400 deg. F for an additional 10 min. or until bottoms are brown and slightly crisp. Serve by transferring the pot stickers with a spatula. If it is desired to serve in the griller, turn off heat before the 10 min. is up, since the griller will retain the heat for a few minutes. Though pot stickers are so called, they should not stick so hard to the bottom as to break when spaded up. If they do more oil should have been used to start with. Instead of an electric griller, a large grilling pan over the kitchen fire will also do, in which case you will have to experiment with your stove to have the time and temperatures right. Pot stickers are a typical Northern-style food and are found (Pg. 254--ed.) in some Northern Chinese restaurants in New York and San Francisco under the name of _kuo-t'ier_, which means literally "pot sticker." Leftovers can be regrilled, especially if underdone the first time. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Feb 29 05:01:51 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:01:51 -0800 Subject: Fwd: New Word Message-ID: Just got this from a friend. And was Jesse the one in the interview? Rima >I heard the following, for the very first time last night. frienemy, >frienemies Friends who act more like enemies. > >Heard on the ET (Entertainment Television) Network in reference to the >closing of the very popular show 'Sex In The City', and it refers to how >the 4 women characters get along. > >I once saw an interview with the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary >and one of the guys said that America adds one new word to the English >language per DAY! > >So feel free to pass this one on to them. > >Cordially, > >Ken Thomson >San Francisco, CA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 05:34:36 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:34:36 EST Subject: Sub-Gum (1903); Frienemy (1993) Message-ID: SUB-GUM More Chinese food. OED and Merriam-Webster have 1911 for "sub-gum," from "_sahp-gam_, lit. assorted, mixed." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Northwestern - 5/4/1903 ...lobster salad, and cranberry sauce, egg SUBGUM, chicken chop suey. kisses and cream.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Monday, May 04, 1903 1016 k Pg. 1, col. 6: Two expert Chinese cooks prepared the Chinese dishes on the bill of fare. The menu included the following appetizing dishes: Bird's nest soup, lobster salad, turkey and cranberry sauce, egg sub-gum, chicken chop suey, kisses and cream, banana jelly, Chinese fruit, LiChee, Gamgot. Daily Northwestern - 12/6/1905 ...younp birds nest soup, steamed duck, whole, SUB GUM fish, ting Inn chicken, long ha. don.....guests to the number of twenty at a CHINESE dinner of ten courses Tuesday evening.....of the dinner in a manner consistent with CHINESE breeding, that they might be able to.....and carefully prepared. Between courses CHINESE wines and liquors which Mr. Toy had.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Wednesday, December 06, 1905 638 k Pg. 3, col. 3: Among the delicacies were kal, young birds nest soup, steamed duck, whole sub gum fish, ting lan chicken, long ha don lobster, turkey, Chinese style, and squab, fried in peanut oil. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FRIENEMY It's not in the ADS-L archives, but I've heard it before and I thought that I had posted it. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: What is this #? ... elsewhere that it will be Ed Harris in Needful Things He was played by a guy with the last name Rooker, who also played Stallone's "frienemy" in Cliffhanger. ... alt.horror - Aug 2, 1993 by Kevin Bourrillion - View Thread (8 articles) From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Feb 29 09:46:52 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:46:52 -0000 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) In-Reply-To: <190.2664a21a.2d726447@aol.com> Message-ID: > About 1980 an Englishwoman told me that in England pay toilets > (whatever they are called) cost a shilling, and therefore "I have to > spend a shillng" meant "I have to go to the bathroom". Inflation in Britain may have been bad around that period, but not so bad as that; so far as I know, "spend a shilling" has never had the sense described, not least because it would have been considered an outrageous sum to charge for a bog-standard public convenience in the days when we had shillings. In my childhood (1940s) and for long afterwards, it cost one (old) penny to use a cubicle in a public loo, hence the expression "to spend a penny" (though, of course, "not spend a penny" and related phrases have a very much longer life in the sense of disinclination to spend money on non-essentials). It was not solely declimalisation (in 1971) that did for the saying but also the widespread move by local authorities to remove charges for public toilets, one reversed more recently through the introduction of superloos, which usually charge either 10p or 20p (in old money that's two shillings or four shillings, which is why people of my generation look askance at the cost and try to avoid them). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Feb 29 12:54:06 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:54:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: New Word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 09:01:51PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > Just got this from a friend. And was Jesse the one in the interview? Rima This is not something I would have said, although it's not inaccurate. JTS > >I heard the following, for the very first time last night. frienemy, > >frienemies Friends who act more like enemies. > > > >Heard on the ET (Entertainment Television) Network in reference to the > >closing of the very popular show 'Sex In The City', and it refers to how > >the 4 women characters get along. > > > >I once saw an interview with the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary > >and one of the guys said that America adds one new word to the English > >language per DAY! > > > >So feel free to pass this one on to them. > > > >Cordially, > > > >Ken Thomson > >San Francisco, CA From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Feb 29 15:01:06 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:01:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: New Word Message-ID: The notion of "one new word per day" from American English is, in my humble opinion, a rather interesting if nebulous notion, especially in an election year. First of all, what's "new." Secondly, what constitutes "adding"? How many times must it be used and over what period of time before a neologism is "established"? I believe Robert Burchfield once opined that there were 800 new words per year. I am confident that "one-a-day" and 800 (or about two per day) are very conservative guesstimates, when one takes into consideration all the technical fields from boating to astrophysics. Regards, David Barnhart P.S. For flames use the following address: barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 17:34:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" Message-ID: This was (re)found while thinking about Gerald Cohen's forthcoming article on "Spiggoty=spic/spik" and a pig-Latin article I'm preparing for StraightDope. >From the OED, under "nix" -- 1866 CAPT. FLACK Prairie Hunter (1879) xxi. 98 When 'Nix-forstay' (a common nickname for the Germans in the far south-west) returned..he proceeded to rake the fire for his supper. SC From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 17:57:47 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:57:47 -0500 Subject: Clerk / clark etc Message-ID: Someone posted: '6 years ago in Harrod's it was a pound to use the loo. Coin operated doors to a luxury men's room with attendant. If you were a shopper, rather than a tourist, the clerk (clark?) would give you a token.' The British term, for me anyway, would actually be 'attendant'. 'Clerk' is marked as American and definitely non-British usage, not only for semantic reasons (what we would call a 'clerk', someone who sits behind a desk and sells tickets of some type, isn't that far semantically from the wider semantics that I think the term has in America), but also because we spell the word 'clerk' but pronounce it /klArk/, where /A/ = low back 'a', not using a rhoticised schwa as I think most Americans do. It's especially the phonetics that make the American usage marked. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 18:10:38 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts clear? I've posted about this before, making two specific requests: 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. I think this is a fascinating and extremely useful list but the problem with people not identifying themselves or their subjects was emphasised this week when I made a cut-and-paste compilation of the thread on the origin of 'gay' for 'homosexual' and the associated lisp stereotype, to send to a friend not on this list. I had to apologise to him for not being able to attribute about half of the posts to anyone. In some cases I was personally able to guess who the sender might have been but didn't want to reify my guesses in an off-list e-mail, so I just apologised. He said that the compilation was very useful and interesting to him, but I think it would have been even better had I been able to identify all the posters and so follow people's individual threads. I would like to ask everyone, whatever their subject is, and even if they post every single day, if they would please always sign their posts. I'm aware that most people on this list are probably able to identify the frequent posters with alomst complete accuracy, but unsigned posts greatly reduce the outside utility of the list, I think, and, even for those of us on the list, it would be nice never to have to guess who had said what. Many thanks. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Feb 29 18:23:34 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:23:34 EST Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: In a message dated 2/29/2004 1:11:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU writes: > What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the > fact > that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts > don't > have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. Re: Posting etiquette >From Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com) The digest version doesn't have any information on the subject lines or the senders? Can't we just correct that? Barry A. Popik From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Sun Feb 29 18:20:40 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:20:40 +0000 Subject: Clerk / clark etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:57 pm -0500 Damien Hall wrote: > It's > especially the phonetics that make the American usage marked. Hm. It's only marked in the context where it's not the norm (i.e., UK)--n'est-ce pas? Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 18:43:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:43:40 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. At least 10 people will be pissed off that I included the whole text of the original message to which I'm replying. At least 10 people will be pleased that I'm doing this. Question: WHY does one just get the digest instead of the whole list? Sam Clements(who sometimes signs posts as SC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Hall" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: Posting etiquette > Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts clear? > I've posted about this before, making two specific requests: > > 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? > 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of the > post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? > > What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the fact > that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't > have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. I think this is > a fascinating and extremely useful list but the problem with people not > identifying themselves or their subjects was emphasised this week when I made a > cut-and-paste compilation of the thread on the origin of 'gay' for 'homosexual' > and the associated lisp stereotype, to send to a friend not on this list. I > had to apologise to him for not being able to attribute about half of the posts > to anyone. In some cases I was personally able to guess who the sender might > have been but didn't want to reify my guesses in an off-list e-mail, so I just > apologised. He said that the compilation was very useful and interesting to > him, but I think it would have been even better had I been able to identify all > the posters and so follow people's individual threads. > > I would like to ask everyone, whatever their subject is, and even if they post > every single day, if they would please always sign their posts. I'm aware that > most people on this list are probably able to identify the frequent posters > with alomst complete accuracy, but unsigned posts greatly reduce the outside > utility of the list, I think, and, even for those of us on the list, it would > be nice never to have to guess who had said what. > > Many thanks. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 18:53:38 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:53:38 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <1e6.1a0f714f.2d738826@aol.com> Message-ID: > The digest version doesn't have any information on the subject lines or >the senders? Can't we just correct that? It seems like the digest version should show the subject and sender and date. Maybe I'm missing something. However: the list messages are readily available on the Web, so the sender or subject of any given item should be immediately (if not perfectly conveniently) identifiable. -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Feb 29 20:04:52 2004 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:04:52 -0600 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! In-Reply-To: <5CCD3DCD-6A56-11D8-8957-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region". In Ontario (the real one, not that town south of you, Arnold), region is used frequently to refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie region, or the region of Oshawa. Last fall while at our cottage we heard a London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had happened "in the region of Cincinatti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to us (I'm from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central Indiana). Herb a small chapter in the annals of verbal magic... letter in today's (2/28/04) Palo Alto Daily News, arguing that "there are sound reasons to reject Regional Measure 2, which would hike most Bay bridge tolls to $3 to fund better roads and transit". reason #1 is: "First, it's not regional." One paragraph down this is clarified: "The seven Bay counties voting on Regional Measure 2 are not a region. Check your dictionary. Check the Bay's growing killer commute. It's now from 20 counties and counting..." there are two parts to the writer's complaint. one is not linguistic: he wants public transportation benefits to cover the whole 20-county region, not merely the 9-county "metropolitan area" (San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Marin, Napa, Alameda, Contra Costa, Solano; please don't complain to *me* about 7 vs. 9 [oh hell, Santa Cruz and Napa are out of it, because they don't have any of the relevant bridges]). well, i want a staff of intelligent, linguistically trained, sexy, devoted houseboys, but i really don't think that's going to happen. on the other hand, this is a discussable question: whether the costs and benefits should cover 5, 7, 9, 15, or 20 counties (all the way south to San Luis Obispo!). the linguistic part has to do with what constitutes a *region*. there is a technical distinction between a (metropolitan) area, as defined by the u.s. census, and a region, as in the "regions of the u.s." (new england, middle atlantic, etc.), and this distinction is reflected (in very diluted fashion) in some dictionaries. the AHD4, for example, gives "area" as a synonym of "region", but says that "regional" refers to a "*large* geographical region" (emphasis mine). still, it's incredibly silly to be telling your neighbors to go look at dictionary definitions to decide whether they'll vote for a ballot measure -- even if the dictionaries do validate the technical distinction in question, however delicately. this is a kind of verbal magic. surely someone is collecting cases where people said that some substantive question could be decided just by looking things up in "the dictionary"... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), don't call me shirley From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Feb 29 20:08:17 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:08:17 -0500 Subject: meaning of Shakespeare line-'ungnem' Message-ID: I could always muddle this out, but when I have a scholarly community, and up against a deadline, I opt for easy. OED cites under 'Latin' , specifically bad Latin, dog Latin, etc. 1588 Love's Labors Lost, V. i. 83 "Oh I smell False Latine, 'dunghel' for 'ungnem.' I assume 'dunghel'= dung hill What does 'ungnem' mean? Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 20:35:59 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:59 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" In-Reply-To: <000801c3feea$3d417c10$2523a618@sam> Message-ID: > From the OED, under "nix" -- > > 1866 CAPT. FLACK Prairie Hunter (1879) xxi. 98 When 'Nix-forstay' (a > common nickname for the Germans in the far south-west) returned..he > proceeded to rake the fire for his supper. "Spigotty" is English, I suppose, i.e., "spik-a-de" = "speak the" ... for something like "I [don't] speak the English". But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands nothing"? Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of German? Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + "forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910: http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ] [Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ... but not to me.] -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Sun Feb 29 20:59:22 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:59:22 -0500 Subject: meaning of Shakespeare line-'ungnem' In-Reply-To: <000801c3feff$c58ec6d0$2523a618@sam> Message-ID: >OED cites under 'Latin' , specifically bad Latin, dog Latin, etc. > > 1588 Love's Labors Lost, V. i. 83 "Oh I smell False Latine, 'dunghel' > for 'ungnem.' > >I assume 'dunghel'= dung hill > >What does 'ungnem' mean? Looks like German "angenehm" = "pleasant". Just kidding. It's a typo. for "unguem", used in the Latin expression "ad unguem" = "perfect", from "unguis" = "fingernail". In the passage, somebody has used "ad dunghel" for "ad unguem" ... apparently the "d" in "ad" has become attached to the erroneous "unghel" to make "dunghel". Maybe it's meant to = "dunghill" for a joke? Maybe a Shakespeare concordance or some such book would explain it. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Feb 29 21:17:29 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: "Make like a tree and leave" (1954) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:47 AM -0500 2/28/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Barry sez: actually it's Larry who sez this > >> "Make like a tree and get outta here." Reminds me of a moment in >> Back to the Future (either I or II), in which a dumb tough guy who >> gets everything wrong orders someone (Marty McFly [Michael J. Fox] or >> his father, no doubt--this is when Marty is back in 1955) to "Make >> like a tree and take off" and is then corrected--"It's 'Make like a >> tree and leave', you moron". Nice to know that it wasn't an >> anachronism, given the above date. > >My recollection of the movie has the big, dumb leader of the gang of >bullies saying it, Biff, and I think it may have been himself as an old man who corrected him(self). That time travel sure is hard on pronouns. Larry From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 29 23:11:09 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:11:09 -0500 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit Message-ID: Doug Wilson quotes: > Recorded by A. W. Read, 1928: a non-mercenary version: > > Here I sit all broken hearted > Came to shit and only farted As I learned it, except for the "all". When I was an undergrad in the Classics Dep't of CCNY, one professor (Robert Hennion) whiled away his straphanging time by classicizing such items. This is the only one I recall: Hic jaceo, cor meum peredi. Pecunia impensa modo pepedi. -- Mark A. Mandel