From kebara at COMCAST.NET Thu Jul 1 01:03:45 2004 From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:03:45 -0700 Subject: Ms. [off topic] Message-ID: Page: I run a a couple of e-mail lists myself(one part time while the "real" moderator is unable to come to the computer), and my experience is, people use pseudonyms for a variety of reasons. In some situations, it's because they *have* been "flamed" when they use their real names. In other cases, some people are just plain "paranoid", and are afraid that if they use their real names they may be open to identity theft or worse. Then there are the people with hostile intent or those who who send spam. *They* don't use their real names, and they often change them so they can't be traced. Finally there are what is known in computer parlance as "netloons": people with genuine mental or emotional problems who may be hostile, "wacko", or just have some "weird" ideas they are ttrying to promote, but often do so in a disruptive way. The last two categories are, fortunately, not very common. The first two are more common, and if you know anything about the Interent, it's easy to see why. Anne G > For better or for worse everybody knows your and my name. I have never even > thought of disguising my name but thought better of it. > > If I make an ass of myself then so be it but I will make an ass of myself > above my signature. It won't be the first time nor the last time that I have > made an ass of myself. > > This brings up two topics for discussion on this list:. The first is why > anyone would choose to use a pseudonym on this list. > > The second is there any pattern to the use of pseudonyms online and do the > people who use them use different pseudonyms on other lists? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 1 02:43:37 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:43:37 -0400 Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote: > > (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.) If > > any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are > > inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a > > date of publication. > > The HDAS project would be happy to have it. After studying the Yale copy, it seems to me unlikely that a dating can be established for this book. The Yale catalog dating of "188-" seems probably too early. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 03:09:53 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:09:53 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake Message-ID: 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m. of work on a light Wednesday. I'm tired!! OT: see the fine article about my old crazy chess friend, Sam Sloan, in today's NEW YORK SUN, pg. 16. A similar article ran in NEW YORK PRESS about two years ago. He'll probably have the article on his web site soon. SHOCKED, SHOCKED: "Early American Newspapers, Second Quarter 2004." It'll be here within 60 minutes? -------------------------------------------------------------- GOD GULF GOD GULF--366 Google hits, 51 Google Groups hits "Republicans are the party of the faithful and Democrats the party of the secularists, goes the conventional wisdom. There is, according to Time magazine, a 'religion gap.' That's not exactly right, however. What exists is a church-attendance gap, not a religious gap or a 'God gulf.'" ---NEW YORK SUN, 30 June 2004, pg. 11, col. 2. All the "God Gulf" hits point to Nicholas Kristof in the November 2003 NEW YORK TIMES. (GOOGLE GROUPS) The Dems' Rearguard Action ... is the irreligious left, but as Nicholas Kristof points out, the latter group is much smaller: [America's] most striking cleavage is the God Gulf, and it ... alt.politics.bush - Nov 12, 2003 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article) (LEXIS-NEXIS) 1. THE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER, January 8, 2004, Thursday, FINAL, Pg. B6, 763 words, 'GOD GULF' REVVING UP RELIGIOUS WARFARE HOWARD DEAN'S GRASP FOR FAITH AS TASTELESS AS DICK CHENEY'S, NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Syndicated columnist 2. The New York Times, January 7, 2004 Wednesday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 21, 745 words, The God Gulf , By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF; E-mail: nicholas at nytimes.com 3. The New York Times, January 9, 2004 Friday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 18, 156 words, God, Country And the Politicians 4. The New York Times, January 9, 2004 Friday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 18, 152 words, God, Country And the Politicians 5. Alameda Times-Star (Alameda, CA), January 11, 2004 Sunday, OP-ED, 536 words 6. Chattanooga Times Free Press (Tennessee), January 8, 2004 Thursday, Times Editorial; Pg. B6, 746 words, Politics puts Jesus in the middle 7. Tampa Tribune (Florida), November 16, 2003, Sunday,, FINAL EDITION, Pg. 2, 670 words, More Faith-Conscious Voters Pose Problems For Democrats Tampa Tribune (Florida) November 16, 2003, Sunday, FINAL EDITION SECTION: COMMENTARY, Pg. 2 LENGTH: 670 words HEADLINE: More Faith-Conscious Voters Pose Problems For Democrats BODY: The situation has been building over the past decade, and there's something particularly troubling about it because such a polarization of attitudes toward public issues hasn't been seen in the United States for generations. In last Wednesday's New York Times, columnist Nicholas D. Kristof did an excellent job of setting out the problem: "A new report from the Pew Research Center says that America is more polarized now than at any time since its polling series began in 1987. Partly that's because it used to be just the Republicans who were intense in their beliefs, while now both sides are frothing." "The Most Striking Cleavage' We're not so sure it has come to "frothing," but certainly the disagreements between right and left are deepening. Kristof goes on to say: "The most striking cleavage is the God Gulf, and it should terrify the Democrats. Put simply, liberals are becoming more secular at a time when America is becoming increasingly religious, the consequence of a new Great Awakening. Americans, for example, are significantly more likely now than in 1987 to say they "completely agree' that "prayer is an important part of my daily life' and that "we all will be called before God on Judgment Day to answer for our sins.' (FACTIVA) (Same Kristof article--ed.) THOSE RUDE LIBERALS TO THE NATION'S DETRIMENT, THE LEFT HAS BECOME AS FURIOUSLY UNCIVIL AS THE RIGHT Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 13 November 2003, 754 words, NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF, (English) -------------------------------------------------------------- BRAT DIET BRAT DIET--11,400 Goolge Groups hits, 936 Google hits, BRAT + RICE + TOAST--3,460 Google hits, 728 Google Groups hit An ADS-L "lurker" kindly pointed this out. Thanks! Please! Eat a hot dog if you wish, but keep your appetite away from obnoxious children! (GOOGLE) Useful information about brat diet @ AGLANCE.COM ... BRAT stands for bananas, rice, apples and toast. These foods are mild, well-tolerated and good sources ... 6. Baby Connection -- Diarrhea (0-12 months) ... ... www.aglance.com/diets2/brat_diet.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages BRAT? Best foods for digestive health? ... Comments. I saw a post here that said BRAT (Bread, rice, applesauce, and toast) was the best food for stomach, colon, and intestinal health. ... www.diagnosishealth.com/_disc62/00000444.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages The Straits Times Interactive: Women - Health & Fitness ... can remember, doctors and nurses have suggested the BRAT diet for ... from diarrhoea to a diet of bananas, rice, applesauce and toast -- that does not ... straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/women/health29.html - 30k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: 18 month old with chronic diarrhea - help! We put each kid on the 'brat diet' (not my choice for ... but to the typical components of the "diet": Bananas, Rice, Applesauce, Tea (or is it Toast?) On the ... misc.kids - Sep 6, 1989 by joan.a.keegan - View Thread (10 articles) (FACTIVA) (71 hits for "brat diet") HEALTH TAB The Cutting Edge Doctors Stumble on The Essence of Brat Victor Cohn 208 words 17 January 1989 The Washington Post FINAL z05 English (Copyright 1989) One of the most common prescriptions for infant diarrhea is the "BRAT" diet: bananas, rice, applesauce and toast. But there's a lot of confusion about it among parents and physicians alike, according to a report in Pediatric News. Dr. Thomas Self of the University of California at San Diego asked 100 pediatricians and family doctors who said they prescribed the diet regularly what BRAT stood for. He asked them face-to-face, so they couldn't look it up. "A very high percentage," he said, "really didn't know what the letters stood for, with answers ranging from B stands for bratwurst to T stands for tea." Most, he added, also said it should be used for "a week or so," a vague recommendation that leads some parents to put an infant on this spare fare for days or weeks every time there's a loose bowel. The possible results: worse diarrhea and, worse still, serious undernutrition. Self told physicians: Know all about the patient before prescribing the diet. Use it for no more than two to five days, with careful supervision. Keep track of the number of times it has been used. -------------------------------------------------------------- RESERVATIONISTS I have reservations about ultra-expensive restaurants that require reservations, so I've never encountered a "reservationist." The OED citations really don't nail down what today's NEW YORK POST article describes. (OED) reservationist, n. (and a.) One who makes reservations (senses 3c and 4a). Also attrib. or as adj. 1920 Glasgow Herald 18 Mar. 9 The reservationist Senators are..too much attached to their limitations and qualifications to abandon them for anything. 1933 W. S. HOLT Treaties defeated by Senate x. 296 The reservationists did not constitute a majority. 1978 N.Y. Times 30 Mar. B20/1 (Advt.), Reservationist... 2 yrs ticketing exp. (FACTIVA, NEW YORK POST) DIS DU JOUR - EATERIES HAVE PLENTY OF SEATS, BUT NOT FOR YOU By STEVE CUOZZO Post restaurant critic 1,029 words 30 June 2004 New York Post 41 English (c) 2004 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. SO you wanna score a table at a hot new restaurant - before it gets reviewed and then trampled by the Zagat-toting rabble? Hah! Owners now make getting into their places hell even before they're known outside foodie circles. Zombie-voiced phone "reservationists" who practically demand your DNA are coming up with even worse ways to ruin your night out - like not bothering to tell anyone that you're coming. And if you suspect that not every trendy new place that tells you it's "fully committed" is actually full, you're not dreaming. New restaurants, especially in their first months, when they're trying to generate buzz, routinely make you come at 6 or 10 p.m. even though there are empty seats at 8. (...) (FACTIVA) FOOD HOLY SMOKE! GET A WHIFF OF THIS NEW TREND Joan Zoloth Special to The Washington Post 2,015 words 22 February 1995 The Washington Post FINAL E01 (...) It's become a badge of honor to get into this cigar dinner that is sold out in many of the Ritz-Carltons. Reservationists of the Ritz are fending off all manner of ingenious ploys to get into the sold-out event. People are claiming blood relations to the Ritz President, politicians, and the Pope. "Then there are those who downright beg or cry" says a Ritz Carlton spokesperson. (...) It's become a badge of honor to get into this cigar dinner that is sold out in many of the Ritz-Carltons. Reservationists of the Ritz are fending off all manner of ingenious ploys to get into the sold-out event. People are claiming blood relations to the Ritz President, politicians, and the Pope. "Then there are those who downright beg or cry" says a Ritz Carlton spokesperson. (...) -------------------------------------------------------------- ROCKET SHAKE I just dined at Westville (this one was on EAST 14th Street). It has a "rocket shake"--a vanilla shake with espresso. There aren't many Google hits for the name. (GOOGLE) (rocket + shake + vanilla + espresso) addyourown: Westville, West Village, Manhattan restaurants... definitely check out the 'rocket shake' for an instant lift: vanilla milkshake with a shot of espresso. Edit this review - add your own comments! View Changes. www.addyourown.com/restaurant. php?rest_id=72&cat_id=1&city_id=1 - 5k - Cached - Similar pages addyourown: Manhattan restaurants and reviews... the like. definitely check out the 'rocket shake' for an instant lift: vanilla milkshake with a shot of espresso. --- To change ... www.addyourown.com/tell.php?nbh_ id=18&venue_id=72&city_id=1&cat_id=1 - 9k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.addyourown.com ] With My Looks & Your Brains...... A Newport steak, fries, a rocket shake (vanilla shake with a shot of espresso dumped in), and the best fucking butterscotch pudding evar. ... domifanotherkid.blogspot.com/ 2003_10_26_domifanotherkid_archive.html - 45k - From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 1 03:15:00 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:15:00 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake In-Reply-To: <437C7FE4.12572935.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SHOCKED, SHOCKED: "Early American Newspapers, Second Quarter 2004." > It'll be here within 60 minutes? I saw a demonstration of EAN over the past weekend. As of now the content is very limited. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 03:53:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:53:09 -0400 Subject: Fripps (potato slices) Message-ID: "Sides and potatoes (all $6) included fantastic 'fripps,' tempura-battered potato slices dusted with sea salt and lemon zest,..." --NEW YORK SUN, 30 June 2004, pg. 21, col. 3, review of V Steakhouse, Time Warner Center, 10 Columbus Circle, 4th floor. Fripps? "Fripps" + "potato" resulted in only 41 Google hits, with just a few relevant and most for this "V Steakhouse." (GOOGLE) New York City - Restaurants and Dining... None of the potato dishes, such as the tempura- battered "fripps" ($6) or the potato and truffle croquettes ($6), were better than great hash browns; and the ... www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/dining/ ny-fdnotes3853944jun18,0,1863933.story?coll=nyc-diningout-headlines - 52k - Cached - Similar pages BCDS expands offerings with chic new café - The Heights ...... One item boasted as a signature Hillside creation is Fripps, the homemade potato chips made in the café by deep-frying pre-sliced potatoes. ... www.bcheights.com/news/2002/10/08/Features/ Bcds-Expands.Offerings.With.Chic.New.Caf-290969.shtml - 41k - Cached - Similar pages Annapolis MD and Anne Arundel county events by What's up Magazine ...... with chicken, beef, or seafood skewers, Kickin’ Corn & Crab Soup, frog legs, three specialty salads, and the Tavern’s famous Fripps—potato fries spiced ... www.whatsupmag.com/aug03/BoatDining.shtml - 67k - Cached - Similar pages New York City Restaurant Openings - L'Asso - Gavroche - Bar Panini... V’s new “fripps”—ovals of baked potato fried in tempura batter with lemon zest—are splendid for sharing, and the buttery mashed potatoes give new ... www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/openings/9161/ - 52k - Cached - Similar pages Coach's Menu... Served on garlic toast with remoulade sauce. Potato Skins, $7.95. ... Served with a pickle and your choice of french fries, onion rings or fripps. ... www.coachsonline.com/menu.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages eGullet.com -> V Steakhouse... None of the various potato dishes, such as the tempura-battered “fripps” ($6) or the potato and truffle croquettes ($6), were better than great hash browns ... forums.egullet.com/index. php?showtopic=45305&view=new - 77k - Cached - Similar pages This PASSPORT Takes You There!... They are a mixture of fusion and French influences, ranging from sautéed foie gras with portabello mushrooms, to fripps made from potato skins in a tempura ... www.passportny.com/ - 24k - Cached - Similar pages AOL CityGuide: New York - Restaurants, Dining, Pizza, Mexican & ... ... plays with sides and condiments, offering items like "fripps," sliced potatoes in a light tempura batter with sea salt and lemon zest, potato croquettes, a ... www.digitalcity.com/newyork/ dining/venue.adp?sbid=130931 - 33k - Cached - Similar pages (FACTIVA) Food WORD OF MOUTH Rookie's grills up yummy burgers SUE GLEITER Of the Patriot-News 650 words 5 June 2002 The Harrisburg Patriot FINAL E01 (...) All burgers are served with fripps, a fried potato chip. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 1 04:25:05 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:25:05 -0700 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: <200406300446.1bFDxY4Zr3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: >...Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage >manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't >matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual >prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the >risk of ambiguity). I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." Rima From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jul 1 12:25:27 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:25:27 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake Message-ID: From: Bapopik at AOL.COM The following was in a quote describing the "God gulf": : "The Most Striking Cleavage' Please tell me i'm not entirely alone in being confused by getting entirely the *wrong* first reading from this heading. (Looking at it a bit more, i see a third reading. Now a fourth. Now a...) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 1 13:07:31 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:07:31 -0400 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is >clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: > >"I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." LOL! Bethany From orinkh at CARR.ORG Thu Jul 1 13:34:40 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:34:40 -0400 Subject: facilitation Message-ID: This isn’t strictly an American dialect question but I know there are some Brit and some legal minds on the list, so I’ll give it a try: a BBC news story today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/3854207.stm) notes that some individuals have been charged with “conspiracy to commit facilitation” in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising tide in Morecambe Bay. (1) What is “facilitation”? (2) Is it a new designation in English law? I don’t find it treated in dictionaries. (3) What’s the US equivalent, if there is one? Many thanks, Orin Hargraves From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Jul 1 13:56:57 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:56:57 +0100 Subject: facilitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:34 am -0400 Orin Hargraves wrote: ... > notes that some individuals have been charged with ìconspiracy to commit > facilitationî in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising > tide in Morecambe Bay. > > (1) What is ìfacilitationî? It's to do with human trafficking: 'facilitation of unauthorised entry and residence'. See: The laws seem to be EU rather than UK in origin... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Jul 1 17:06:24 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:06:24 -0600 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On June 30, 2004 10:25 PM, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > > >...Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have > seen in usage > >manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are > optional, and it doesn't > >matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though > the Chicago Manual > >prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason > being to avoid the > >risk of ambiguity). > > I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is > clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: > > "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." > > Rima A great quote and a perfect illustration of the point! Where is it from -- or did you make it up? Standard lexicographical practice is to use a comma before 'and' in a list, for exactly the reason given in the Chicago Manual and exemplified by Rima's quote. Victoria P.S. Happy Canada Day to Canadians on the list. Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 1 21:53:39 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:53:39 -0700 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: <200407011000.1bG4V15Cq3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >.> "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." >> >A great quote and a perfect illustration of the point! Where is it >from -- or did you make it up? Forthe life of me, I can never remember who said it - but I only get credit for remembering the quote itself. Rima From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 1 23:04:47 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:04:47 -0700 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <001701c45f07$429690b0$d6251318@kebara1jab3pmh> Message-ID: In defense of the anonymous e-mailer who's been getting some barbs for using a "pseudonym": The screen name "LJT777 at AOL.COM" doesn't look like a pseudonym to me. Rather, it looks like one of those computer-generated screen names that AOL and CompuServe suggest when you first sign up for their service. You can either accept the default name or try one of your own, which may or may not be accepted, depending on whether another AOL (in this case) subscriber has already taken it. It can take several tries to find a name that's available. Some people may just take the line of least resistance and accept the default. (In that case, of course, it's good netiquette to give your actual name somewhere in the body of your message.) Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From LJT777 at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 23:39:43 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:39:43 EDT Subject: Ms. [off topic] Message-ID: I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was careless of me not to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS listserv for years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my intention, you may be sure. Lindsie Jordan Tucker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 00:09:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:09:51 -0400 Subject: Gurgitator (2002) Message-ID: GURGITATOR--108 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits An article in the Thursday Now section of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS is: "Hot Dog! Coney contest is first bite in the stuff-your-face season." Pg. 40, col. 2: "In 1997, he (George Shea--ed.) co-founded the International Federation of Competitive Eating with an eye toward becoming the official governing body for 'gurgitators' worldwide." It looks like Shea coined or popularized the word in this context. (There are earlier computer hits.) If this thing gets big enough, maybe they'll hold events like this in a Shea Stadium? OT, "GURGITATOR" COMPETITIONS I WANT TO SEE: Eric "Badlands" Booker vs. the Olsen Twins. (GOOGLE) International Federation of Competitive Eating - TEAM IFOCE ... ... TEAM IFOCE OFFICIAL STORE : The Gurgitator Quantity: GURGITATOR - 2002 Weight: 1.0 lbs List Price: $16.95 Get the latest news ... www.ifoce.bigstep.com/item.html?PRID=1146773 - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Recordnet.com ... champion will be crowned. The most famous gurgitator will be Ed "Cookie" Jarvis, who will fly in from Long Island, NY. Jarvis is world ... www.recordnet.com/daily/specials/ asparagus2004/articles/8asp.php - 58k - Cached - Similar pages CNN.com - Transcripts ... And check this out, Fredricka. Actually a magazine called the "Gurgitator." An international federation of competitive eating magazine. ... www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/04/lt.25.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages 1. Definitions ... 1. Definitions 1. Gurgitation 2. Gurgitator 3. Warden/Gamekeeper 4. Gurgitation Quotient 5. Victor 6. Pecking Order (gate number?) 7. Pecking Number 8. etc 2 ... gorge.internev.com/rules.htm - 17k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages Adventure ... I kept my eyes peeled for "Hungry" Charles Hardy, the two-time American hotdog eating champion and marquee gurgitator at the Snackdown. ... www.thesquaretable.com/fall02/ifoce.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages Bakersfield's Underground Newspaper | The Blackboard ... normal activity. For those opposed to any sort of physical activity, new “Gurgitator” over-eating sports will emerge. The “Food ... blackboard3.home.att.net/may04/articles6.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages CNS: February 16, 2004: Big bellies are out for competitive eaters ... By Joelle Farrell. PHOTO: Sarah Burge Eric Booker, 33, a competitive eater, or "gurgitator," nibbles at a Carnegie Deli sandwich. ... www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-02-16/444.asp - 12k - Cached - Similar pages Sonya Thomas is: "THE BLACK WIDOW" ... As I asserted before, Kobayashi is the most elite gurgitator the world has ever known. I feel honored just to be on the same stage as him. ... www.sonyatheblackwidow.com/ - 13k - Jun 29, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Japanese oogui ... Compared to many of his fellow "gurgitators", Kobayashi is not just thin, he is downright skeletal, weighing in at a mere 51.3kg. ... fj.life.in-japan - Jul 4, 2002 by Brett Robson - View Thread (7 articles) Good Food, Good Treats, Good Golly, Let's Eat! ... around the world, six of them women, who compete in its events and are sometimes featured in its quarterly newsletter called "The Gurgitator." Most American ... alt.bad.clams - Aug 15, 2002 by Frankenclam - View Thread (1 article) (FACTIVA) NATION Fox's 'Glutton Bowl' lures 'gurgitators' with $25k prize ; 'A good eater is a good athlete,' says international body Jennifer Harper, THE WASHINGTON TIMES 654 words 18 February 2002 The Washington Times A09 English (Copyright 2002) It is a consuming passion: They eat for sport, chomping and chewing while audiences howl, judges watch for style and bystanders - well, they stand back. Chicken wings, matzo balls, pickled quail eggs, cannoli, hot dogs, jalapenos, sushi, pancakes, oysters, mince pie - it's all fair game to competitive eaters who have their own federation, regulations, world records and yes, competitive eat meets where less is definitely not more and the best professional gurgitator wins. "It's not about gluttony. It's about competitive eating. This is a sport. We train, we compete, we have strategies and disciplines," said George Shea, chairman of the New York-based International Federation of Competitive Eating (IFOCE). "And it's global - America, Russia, Thailand, Canada, England, Scotland, Germany," Mr. Shea said. "This is a sport of the everyman, because every man can understand it. A good eater is a good athlete." America gets its first real taste of competitive eating when Fox broadcasts "The Glutton Bowl" on Thursday, a two-hour special that features 40 contestants competing for $25,000 "in a challenge to see how much or how fast they can consume," according to the network. The qualifying round alone features mayonnaise, beef tongue and butter, among other things. Fox plans a surprise delicacy for the finale, which they promise is "not for the faint of heart or weak of stomach." In March, the Discovery Channel will explore mega-eating phenomena in a documentary called "Gut Busters." But it's not quite as crass as all that, Mr. Shea insists. An IFOCE mandate specifies safety and age regulations, careful record- keeping and uniform procedures for those moments when one man will consume 21/2 pounds of mince pie in 30 seconds. That feat was accomplished by England's Peter Dowsewell two years ago, and it still stands as a world's record. There are points for "neat eating," a newsletter called "The Gurgitator" and official T-shirts which read "Nothing in Moderation" and come in sizes up to XXXXL. Competitors share training methods - like learning to stretch their stomachs by drinking a gallon of water at one sitting. The IFOCE also finds sponsors for sanctioned tournaments year- round. Come November, the group plans a competition that will feature an entire Thanksgiving dinner. A short history at the group's Web site (www.ifoce.com) maintains that competitive eating has been around since prehistoric times, and while American eaters dominated the early 20th century, the Japanese now set "record after record before stunned crowds." (...) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 00:34:58 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:34:58 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: ------------- Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you money in the long run, mmmkay? ------------- i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as well as a question marker? there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for "ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" (though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant "mmmkay?"). let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, mmmkay? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 00:53:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:53:29 -0400 Subject: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (1973) Message-ID: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE + EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE--9,920 Google hits, 26,000 Google Groups hits � � � � Fred Shapiro probably already has this, but here goes. � It refers to Martians or Al Qaeda or Iraq (weapons of mass destruction). � � (GOOGLE) “the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” ... Al Qaeda or has resumed production of chemical or biological agents, Rumsfeld insists that “the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” But there ... soc.culture.vietnamese - Mar 27, 2003 by :)) - View Thread (1 article) � � (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment Absence of evidence != evidence of absence. Actually, absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence. It isn't, and can never be, proof ... net.physics - Aug 10, 1986 by Patrick M Juola - View Thread (49 articles) Re: More Atheistic Wishful Thinking ... As for "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (Haldane). The only proper conclusion is that you can draw no conclusion. ... net.philosophy - Sep 28, 1985 by Rich Rosen - View Thread (47 articles) Re: More Theistic Wishful Thinking ... Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but if you carry that to its logical conclusion, you must believe in everything. ... net.philosophy - Sep 22, 1985 by Rich Rosen - View Thread (1 article) Re: instability in Berkeley versus AT&T releases ... the point that proves the argument. Bull. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you mean that the "uptime" listing ... net.micro.att - Jul 26, 1985 by Guy Harris - View Thread (50 articles) Re: science and belief This ``absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'' bit: I think that it is only one way of stating that it is not possible (in the general case) to prove ... net.sci - Jul 29, 1984 by Laura Creighton - View Thread (4 articles) � � (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) � Frederick Post � Saturday, January 13, 2001 Frederick, Maryland � � ...old archaeological maxim, "ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE.....Egyptian pharaohs. One major piece OF EVIDENCE has a disputed date, but.. � � � Advocate � Monday, June 21, 1976 Newark, Ohio � � ...as one scientist put it, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE should not be taken as EVIDENCE.....OF ABSENCE. And so it will go, one at a.. Pg. 10, col. 4: � These tests could indicate whether there are living things in the Martian soil although, as one scientist put it, "the absence of evidence should not be taken as evidence of absence." � � � Frederick Post � Wednesday, October 05, 1994 Frederick, Maryland � � ...first place. In science, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE in.....all OF the biologic and genetic EVIDENCE strongly indicates that humans.. � � � News � Wednesday, October 05, 1994 Frederick, Maryland � � ...first place. In science, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE in.....all OF the biologic and genetic EVIDENCE strongly indicates that humans.. � (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("absence of evidence" + "evidence of absence") � 1. Tests to Seek Life on Mars Begin; Tests to Seek Life on Mars Start With 'Sniffing' of Atmosphere By WALTER SULLIVAN Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 25, 1976. p. 1 (2 pages) Pg. 28, col. 5: � Some project scientists emphasize that the experiments are not capable of indentifying all possible forms of biological activity of the British astrophysicist, Martin Rees, that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." � � � � � 2. The Great Harvard-Stanford M.B.A. War By Theodore Levitt. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 9, 1978. p. A31 (1 page) � � � 3. EXPERTS FIND POLLS INFLUENCE ACTIVISTS; They Say Most Powerful Effect Is on Potential Contributors and Other Shapers of Opinion Impact on the Electorate Shift in Final Week Polls as Campaign Issue Filling Ford's House Seat By E.J. DIONNE. New York Times (1857-Current. May 4, 1980. p. 26 (1 page) � � � � 4. OUT POSTS; THE UNIVERSE Seeing Life in the Cosmic Haystack The Voice of Hydrogen Searching and Sweeping Leaking the Message Moments in Time Lawrence Fagg. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1988. p. C3 (1 page) � � � 5. Giving the U.F.O. Group A Shot at Persuasion By CHRISTOPHER LEHMANN-HAUPT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1995. p. C14 (1 page) � � � 6. Simpson Prosecutor Tries to Counter an Expert's Testimony By DAVID MARGOLICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 29, 1995. p. A13 (1 page) � � � 7. Excerpts From Final Rebuttal Arguments by Prosecutors in Simpson Case New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 30, 1995. p. 8 (1 page) � � � � 8. The Triumph of Liberalism; The triumph of what? If the Democrats sound like Republicans, it's not because the Democrats abandoned the liberal agenda. It's because the Republicans absorbed it. By Roger Rosenblatt. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1996. p. SM33 (3 pages) � � � 9. Books in Brief; NONFICTION FICTION & POETRY PAUL A. WEISSMANCAROL PEACE ROBINSERIC P. NASHMINDY ALOFFPHILIP GAMBONEDAVID KIRBYJONATHON KEATSALLEN LINCOLN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 30, 2000. p. BR16 (2 pages) � � � (JSTOR) The Maunder Minimum John A. Eddy Science, New Series, Vol. 192, No. 4245. (Jun. 18, 1976), pp. 1189-1202. Pg. 1191: � But in the words of a modern astronomer, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (26). Pg. 1201: � 26. Attributed to M. J. Rees, in _Project Cyclops_, J. Billingham, Ed. (NASA publication CR 114445, Stanford/NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., 1973), pg. 3, From chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 2 00:46:21 2004 From: chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:46:21 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <20040702003459.687AD3823E2@rapid.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: I haven't studied this at all, but I have watched South Park. Mmmkay was sort of a signature phrase of one of the characters (Mr. Mackey), who ended most, if not all, sentences with it. FWIW. Larissa You said.... ++From: Arnold M. Zwicky ++ ++------------- ++Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you ++money in the long run, mmmkay? ++------------- ++ ++i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial ++prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some ++speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as ++well as a question marker? ++ ++there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for ++"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some ++even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" ++(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant ++"mmmkay?"). ++ ++let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, ++mmmkay? ++ ++arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 2 01:03:35 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:03:35 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >arnold, >I can't remember the South Park teacher's name (he with a friend >named Mr. Hat I believe, although in the episode I saw last night he >was unfaithful to Mr. Hat with Mr. Stick), but he tags nearly half >of his uterances with "mmmmmkay." The effect is striking and is >clearly a part of his "characterization." dInIs >from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: > >------------- >Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you >money in the long run, mmmkay? >------------- > >i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial >prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some >speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as >well as a question marker? > >there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for >"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some >even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" >(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant >"mmmkay?"). > >let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, >mmmkay? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 01:29:44 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:29:44 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larissa H. Chen" > I haven't studied this at all, but I have watched South Park. Mmmkay > was sort of a signature phrase of one of the characters (Mr. Mackey), > who ended most, if not all, sentences with it. > > FWIW. > > Larissa > My kids(13 and 17) agree with the South Park/Mr. Mackey origin. But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was the genesis of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series history" in the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history Of course, Barry will no doubt find it in the 19th Century. :) There is a usenet posting on 1 Feb. 1993 for "MMkay" used in the sense that we're talking about. I think that predates the actual South Park series. Sam Clements From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 2 01:56:43 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:43 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <003601c45fd4$0e35aa40$7223a618@sam> Message-ID: > But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was > the genesis > of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series > history" in the following link: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history The 1991 short is "The Spirit of Christmas." Hilarious. But the character of Mr. Mackay isn't in it and no one says "mmmkay". It's Parker and Stone, by the way. The term is glossed as "m'kay" in "Among The New Words" in American Speech, 75/3, Fall 2000. Glowka, et. al., incorrectly (in my opinion) gloss it as a euphemism for fuck, "with a joke on people using the exclamation to mean OK." This is based on a single usage in the movie "South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut". This usage is in a song sung by Mr. Mackay, the lyric which goes, "'Cause 'fuck' is the worst word that you can say, / So just use the word 'm'kay'!" While this one use does match, the gloss ignores all the other times when the term is used by Mackay on the series. The joke is about Mackay's use of the word for OK, not as a code word for the expletive. This is a nonce usage for Mackay. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 02:29:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:29:04 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" Subject: Re: mmmkay? and its kin > > But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was > > the genesis > > of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series > > history" in the following link: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history > > The 1991 short is "The Spirit of Christmas." Hilarious. But the character of > Mr. Mackay isn't in it and no one says "mmmkay". > > It's Parker and Stone, by the way. Right. Parker/Davis were running in the first election in which I voted. :) Sam Clements From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 2 03:33:08 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:33:08 -0400 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <157.38e0dc74.2e15fabf@aol.com> Message-ID: LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about >whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was >careless of me not >to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so >aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS >listserv for >years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie >Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my >intention, you may be >sure. > >Lindsie Jordan Tucker Don't worry about it! You've just run into a cultural difference. In other internet venues such as newsgroups, I've been told that I'm crazy to use my real name and email address; doesn't stop me... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 2 11:48:10 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:48:10 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, My bad. It's the counselor (Mr. Markey?), not Mr. Garrison (the teacher with the hand puppets), as my viewing of Cartman unwillingly giving up a kidney for Stan revealed last night. dInIs >>arnold, > >>I can't remember the South Park teacher's name (he with a friend >>named Mr. Hat I believe, although in the episode I saw last night he >>was unfaithful to Mr. Hat with Mr. Stick), but he tags nearly half >>of his uterances with "mmmmmkay." The effect is striking and is >>clearly a part of his "characterization." > > >dInIs > > > > >>from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: >> >>------------- >>Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you >>money in the long run, mmmkay? >>------------- >> >>i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial >>prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some >>speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as >>well as a question marker? >> >>there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for >>"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some >>even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" >>(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant >>"mmmkay?"). >> >>let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, >>mmmkay? >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jul 2 13:11:35 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:11:35 -0400 Subject: "Absence od evidence is not evidence of absence" (1969) Message-ID: W.F. Grimes, _The Excavation of Roman and Mediaeval London_, reviewed by A.R. Burn, The Classical Review 19.2 (Jun. 1969) 321: "....even while remembering the important fact that absence of evidence is not identical with evidence of absence,...." Prof. Kenneth Kitchen of Liverpool has been using the phrase for some years, and may predate the above. A similar thought appears, e.g., in Kitchen's _Ancient Orient and Old Testament_ (London, 1966) p. 31-32: "It must always be remembered that such absence of evidence/ in these fields of study too often merely reflects the large gaps in our present-day knowledge." Stephen Goranson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 2 13:36:27 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:36:27 -0400 Subject: facilitation Message-ID: Here's the definition from Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004): "The act or an instance of aiding or helping; esp., in criminal law, the act of making it easier for another person to commit a crime." Some states make facilitation a crime (well, all do, really, but they don't all call it that), with various degrees according to the facilitator's level of culpability. In other states, the facilitator may be charged with aiding and abetting, or as an accessory or accomplice to the crime. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Orin Hargraves Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:35 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: facilitation This isn't strictly an American dialect question but I know there are some Brit and some legal minds on the list, so I'll give it a try: a BBC news story today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/3854207.stm) notes that some individuals have been charged with "conspiracy to commit facilitation" in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising tide in Morecambe Bay. (1) What is "facilitation"? (2) Is it a new designation in English law? I don't find it treated in dictionaries. (3) What's the US equivalent, if there is one? Many thanks, Orin Hargraves From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:13:54 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:13:54 -0500 Subject: (OT): Request for translation service Message-ID: Occasionally I receive requests to have documents translated into various European languages. I remember that a few ads-l members do such translations professionally but forget just who they are. I'd be grateful if one or two of the translators would write to me off-line. It would be helpful to have their names and e-mail addresses handy the next time I receive a translating request. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian University of Missouri-Rolla From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:58:30 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:58:30 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it Message-ID: Some time ago Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik posted messages regarding the expression "to make a federal case" out of something = to make a big issue out of something trivial. The end result was several citations found by Barry from 1951. I had thought that I had posted a message at the time suggesting that the expression might allude to the Mann Act, passed in the mid 1910s, making it a federal offense to bring a woman across a state line for the purpose of fornication. Modestly, I acknowledged that the only barrier between this insight and its general acceptance was the lack of any evidence to support it. I don't find my message in the archives through a search for postings on "federal case", though. Here is a slight antedating from the Proquest Washington Post of the expression in its figurative sense: "I'm not trying to make a Federal case of it, but Mi Scandal and Petty Larceny won the two chief races on the Friday program" [The lead to an article on the horseraces at the Charles Town track.] Washington Post, December 30, 1950, p. 11. Here is an interesting use of the expression, apparently with reference to the Mann Act, from 15 years earlier, found in Proquest's Chicago Tribune files. The context is an elopement from Colorado to Chicago by a 21 year old rodeo cowboy and a 16 year old girl. Quoting a message from the Sheriff of Sterling Colorado to the Chicago police: "Please arrest and hold these parties, as the girl's folks are about crazy. If there is no law to hold Bartlett on we'll make a federal case of it." Chicago Tribune, May 22, 1936, p. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:58:04 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:58:04 -0700 Subject: Federal nugget Message-ID: Is there anybody out there who collects federalese? I just learned that the Health Resources and Services Administration of HHS has a "Division of Independent Review Objective Review Committee." I don't think this has anything to do with the "Federalwide Assurance," or FWA, though this also exists. Of course, as another federal document I came across several years ago was at pains to point out, "this information is provided for information only." Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 16:01:07 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:01:07 EDT Subject: BRAT diet (1989) Message-ID: In a message dated Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:09:53 -0400, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (pseudonym for Barry Popik) writes: > The Cutting Edge > Doctors Stumble on The Essence of Brat > Victor Cohn 208 words 17 January 1989 The Washington Post > (Copyright 1989) > > One of the most common prescriptions for infant diarrhea is the "BRAT" diet: > bananas, rice, applesauce and toast. But there's a lot of confusion about it > among parents and physicians alike, according to a report in Pediatric News. > > Dr. Thomas Self of the University of California at San Diego asked 100 > pediatricians and family doctors who said they prescribed the diet regularly > what BRAT stood for. He asked them face-to-face, so they couldn't look it up. > "A very high percentage," he said, "really didn't know what the letters stood > for, with answers ranging from B stands for bratwurst to T stands for tea." > > Most, he added, also said it should be used for "a week or so," a vague > recommendation that leads some parents to put an infant on this spare fare > for days or weeks every time there's a loose bowel. The possible results: > worse diarrhea and, worse still, serious undernutrition. > > Self told physicians: Know all about the patient before prescribing the diet. > Use it for no more than two to five days, with careful supervision. Keep > track of the number of times it has been used. My wife, who is a registered nurse, has used the expression "BRAT diet" (meaning bananas, rice, appleSAUCE, and toast) for as long as I have known her, which would be 1979. She says she does not remember when she first heard the term; it may have been from her mother. I checked some of her old nursing texts; the term does not appear in them. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 16:07:37 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:07:37 EDT Subject: Periods after abbreviations Message-ID: In a message dated 6/30/04 12:02:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should > > not have a period. > > I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism, it never > > occurred to me that it was meant to be serious. > > what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism? Perhaps this old riddle will help your understanding: Q: Why is the little red schoolhouse red? A: If you had six periods a day, you'd be red, too! - Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:50:49 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:50:49 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 4:48 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote, about South Park: > My bad. It's the counselor (Mr. Markey?), not Mr. Garrison (the > teacher with the hand puppets), as my viewing of Cartman unwillingly > giving up a kidney for Stan revealed last night. so there seems to be a general feeling that South Park was an, if not the, agent of spread. but was the bilabial version an invention of the writers, or were they merely exaggerating a feature already in use? the velar version goes back way before South Park. it was one of the things that struck geoff pullum about american english, on his first visit to the u.s., exactly thirty years ago. i had noticed it years before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't realized that it was a specifically american thing. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) ' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:56:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:56:37 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 9:50 AM, i wrote: > ... i had noticed it years > before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't > realized that it was a specifically american thing. i believe that this is one case where we can't blame canada. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Jul 2 16:52:57 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:52:57 -0400 Subject: BRAT diet (1989) Message-ID: > >My wife, who is a registered nurse, has used the expression "BRAT diet" >(meaning bananas, rice, appleSAUCE, and toast) for as long as I have known her, >which would be 1979. She says she does not remember when she first heard the >term; it may have been from her mother. I checked some of her old nursing texts; >the term does not appear in them. > > - James A. Landau I first heard the term when I was in the Peace Corps (Morocco, 1980), where it was recommended as therapy for diarrhea; we were told it was "bananas, rice, apples, and tea." Orin Hargraves From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 2 23:50:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:50:23 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it In-Reply-To: <1ac92e51acef81.1acef811ac92e5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Here's another early example ... maybe just a literal use of "federal case" though. ---------- _Nevada State Journal_ (Reno NV), 20 May 1935: p. 4, col. 2: <> ---------- The ACLU wanted to bring charges in Federal court because the abductees were supposedly taken into an Indian reservation. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 23:53:30 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:53:30 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has two 1948 cites for the phrase as a euphemism. Both are by Walter Winchell; May and Dec. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:58 AM Subject: making a federal case of it > Some time ago Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik posted messages regarding the expression "to make a federal case" out of something = to make a big issue out of something trivial. The end result was several citations found by Barry from 1951. I had thought that I had posted a message at the time suggesting that the expression might allude to the Mann Act, passed in the mid 1910s, making it a federal offense to bring a woman across a state line for the purpose of fornication. Modestly, I acknowledged that the only barrier between this insight and its general acceptance was the lack of any evidence to support it. I don't find my message in the archives through a search for postings on "federal case", though. > > Here is a slight antedating from the Proquest Washington Post of the expression in its figurative sense: > "I'm not trying to make a Federal case of it, but Mi Scandal and Petty Larceny won the two chief races on the Friday program" [The lead to an article on the horseraces at the Charles Town track.] Washington Post, December 30, 1950, p. 11. > > Here is an interesting use of the expression, apparently with reference to the Mann Act, from 15 years earlier, found in Proquest's Chicago Tribune files. The context is an elopement from Colorado to Chicago by a 21 year old rodeo cowboy and a 16 year old girl. Quoting a message from the Sheriff of Sterling Colorado to the Chicago police: > "Please arrest and hold these parties, as the girl's folks are about crazy. If there is no law to hold Bartlett on we'll make a federal case of it." Chicago Tribune, May 22, 1936, p. 1 > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jul 3 00:00:56 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:00:56 -0400 Subject: fluxuation Message-ID: Found on newspaperarchive.com fluxuation (1916). Google News returns 0 (zero) Google 2,470 dictionaries ... 0 (zero?) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 00:07:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:07:37 -0700 Subject: Newspeak Message-ID: a grad student, laboring away at an annotated bibliography of truncated yes-no questions for me, has pointed me to a very full handout for a GLOW 2003 paper ("Deletion through Movement") by justin fitzpatrick (of MIT), which has the following intriguing first footnote: As will all linguistic data, the judgments reported here hold only for some (I-)languages. These examples may be perfectly grammatical in other languages commonly called "dialects" of English. ------------- i certainly agree that every variety -- "dialect", if you will -- ought to be treated as a language on its own, but this way of talking really won't do, because it fails to say that the varieties in question have something to do with "English". after all, there are billions of I-languages around (many of them in china) in which fitzpatrick's first two negative judgments (recast in form here) hold: *Someone go tomorrow. 'Someone will go tomorrow.' *Someone been in my office. 'Someone has been in my office.' in any case, dialectologists, you now know how to talk about "dialects" in Newspeak. and, as tom wasow pointed out to me, you now see where "Chomsky's repeated claim that the everyday notion of a language (like English) is incoherent" can lead you. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 00:24:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:24:17 -0700 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: <40E22BBE.4010405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2004, at 7:55 PM, Wilson Gray notes the following phenomenon: > There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce > a > given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to > their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their > idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its > standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic > pronunciation. E.g. > > A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? > B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"? > A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"! > I say "street"! > B. Oh. Okay. My bad. > A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? the generalization is that, in a great many settings, people tend to believe that they say what they think they're supposed to say. it's a species of earnest self-delusion. so wilson's example is a lot like people's insisting that they never "drop their g's" -- and then, of course, do so as soon as their attention is focused elsewhere. some years back we had a discussion here about r-omission by otherwise rful speakers, and i noted that lots of people, a fair amount of the time, didn't have an r in the first syllable of "quarter". as the discussion went on, people who protested that they'd never heard of such a thing, etc. suddenly caught *themselves* saying "quater" (exactly the response i had when my first linguistics teacher, the classicist samuel atkins of princeton, pointed out that this was my usual pronunciation). more recently I've had a certain number of excellent writers (like louis menand) and linguists (like larry trask) and authorities on writing claim to me that they never used possessive antecedents for pronouns, though in fact they did, they did. one of those things that can make self-reports, including acceptability judgments, perilous. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 3 03:42:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:42:26 EDT Subject: Hipsterati; "De-Lovely" review; Where Now?: Jim Crotty Message-ID: OT: "DE-LOVELY" REVIEW DE-LOVELY is a new movie about Cole Porter, starring Kevin Kline and my beautiful wife Ashley Judd. Say that you're a reviewer and that you don't find it delightful or delicious. What would you call it? From the NEW YORK SUN, July 2-4, 2004, pg. 20, col. 2: "De-Lovely" (PG-13, 125 mins.) is de-lousy. (GOOGLE) Amazon.com: Music: De-Lovely [SOUNDTRACK]... De-Lovely is De-Lousy! An Abomination!, June 30, 2004, Reviewer: Phil ... Porter's music. "De-Lovely" is De- Lousy! Was this review helpful to you? ... www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/B00023GGHQ?v=glance - 63k - Jun 30, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages New Movie Shorts... Tempting to call it "de-lousy" and be done with it, but Irwin Winkler's ... De-Lovely's shocking revelation is that behind the bubbling wit was a reservoir of pain ... citypaper.net/articles/current/movshts.shtml - 16k - Jul 1, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages The Village Voice: Theater: Thames the Breaks by David Finkle... performances from his troupe, he's inexplicably dropped many of the Cole Porter lyrics to "You're the Top" and "It's De-Lovely." And that's de-lousy, like so ... www.villagevoice.com/issues/0306/finkle.php - 32k - Cached - Similar pages ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HIPSTERATI HIPSTERATI--142 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits "I hate these hipsterati Manhattan wimps." --METRO (NY free newspaper), July 2-5, 2004, pg. 10, col. 1. This "-erati" seems to be a new, New York City-based term. It's used in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. (GOOGLE) Gothamist: Williamsburg: Victimized by its own Hipness ... There's also some bleating about Williamsburg being played out, too full of wannabe hipsters, dirty, the word "hipsterati," how the East Village is real and ... www.gothamist.com/archives/2003/07/ 28/williamsburg_victimized_by_its_own_hipness.php - 45k - Cached - Similar pages Bollywood Disco: 1st Anniversary - May 21, 2003 ... 15, 2002 founder DJ Rekha has dusted off the musical gems of Bombay for a core audience of Bollywood fanatics and a growing number of New York’s hipsterati. ... www.salaamtheatre.org/bollydisco2003.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages CMJ.com: new music first ... LIARS LINKS official site RECORD LABEL Mute, LIARS: Artist Spotlight Two years ago, Liars were the shimmying ambassadors of the Brooklyn hipsterati, launching a ... www.cmj.com/articles/display_article.php?id=545460 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: He's Got His Moe-jo Workin' ... the stock car is fun," he exclaims. Reaching out to the hipsterati does have its limits, however. When asked if he has any plans ... mn.politics - Jul 25, 2002 by American - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ADS-L "WHERE ARE THEY NOW?" --JIM CROTTY News reports of my 1970s chess friend Sam Sloan, of Ronald Reagan, and of Bill Clinton have me nostalgic for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. I checked up on some ADS-L nostalgia. What the hell happened to Jim Crotty? Seven years ago, in July 1997, he came out with HOW TO TALK AMERICAN. Then, his Monk Magazine published guidebooks of New York CIty and California. A check of Amazon.com for HOW TO TALK AMERICAN shows this: Customers who bought titles by James Marshall Crotty also bought titles by these authors: Allan Metcalf Robert Blumenfeld Laurie Bauer University of Chicago Press Staff There are these Google hits. (GOOGLE) James Crotty All Contents Copyright © James Crotty Website Developed by Monk Media. www.jamescrotty.com/biography.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages MONK - Slant The Monk Makes the Scene by James Crotty June 15, 2002. THE MONK MAKES THE SCENE. fter watching the Independent Spirit Awards on Bravo ... www.monk.com/display.php?p=Slant&id=6 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages The Monk Magazine site hasn't had a new post in over two years. I knew that the road was a dead end for the Monks--they can't compete with LONELY PLANET and LET'S GO in the travel guide field. Their New York City and California guides are no longer being sold. A growing internet has seemingly passed the Monks by. HOW TO TALK AMERICAN was an interesting hodge-podge collection of slang, collected without historical sources. But where was Crotty going with all this? What would he do next? A check of "Jim Crotty" + "Monk" on Google Groups shows only 25 hits, and only one since 2001. Was HOW TO TALK AMERICAN the end of the road for him? Thus ends our July 4th special feature, ADS-L "Where Are They Now?" From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Jul 3 11:57:56 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:57:56 -0400 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: <520D54BE-CC87-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: as arnold well knows, this mismatch has been looked at formally in so-called "linguistic insecurity" studies, early on in Labov's NYC study and then in Trudgill's Norwich study, the latter of which coined the terms "over-" and "underreporters" for those who said they used more (or less) of the standard form than they actually did. This led to the codification of the notions of "overt" and "covert" prestige and to their early applications to sex-related preferences in language. Although a lot of water has flowed over (and under) the sociolinguistic dam since, these early efforts are worth remembering. On a more anecdotal note, I actually once heard an otherwise respectable linguist say that of course untrained speakers might err in self-report but that once one had linguistic awareness (i.e., formal training) no such mismatch was possible. As the great political thinker Rush Limbaugh might say, "Hoo boy!" dInIs >On Jun 29, 2004, at 7:55 PM, Wilson Gray notes the following phenomenon: > >>There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce >>a >>given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to >>their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their >>idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its >>standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic >>pronunciation. E.g. >> >>A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? >>B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"? >>A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"! >>I say "street"! >>B. Oh. Okay. My bad. >>A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? > >the generalization is that, in a great many settings, people tend to >believe that they say what they think they're supposed to say. it's a >species of earnest self-delusion. > >so wilson's example is a lot like people's insisting that they never >"drop their g's" -- and then, of course, do so as soon as their >attention is focused elsewhere. > >some years back we had a discussion here about r-omission by otherwise >rful speakers, and i noted that lots of people, a fair amount of the >time, didn't have an r in the first syllable of "quarter". as the >discussion went on, people who protested that they'd never heard of >such a thing, etc. suddenly caught *themselves* saying "quater" >(exactly the response i had when my first linguistics teacher, the >classicist samuel atkins of princeton, pointed out that this was my >usual pronunciation). > >more recently I've had a certain number of excellent writers (like >louis menand) and linguists (like larry trask) and authorities on >writing claim to me that they never used possessive antecedents for >pronouns, though in fact they did, they did. > >one of those things that can make self-reports, including acceptability >judgments, perilous. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 3 13:58:01 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:58:01 -0500 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0500 7/2/04, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >List members [of American Name Society]: > > >The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) > >The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. > >/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. > >I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? > >Thank you, > >Michael McCafferty Sounds like the President presiding over a Cabinet session (now 15 executive departments, maybe fewer earlier)--somewhat like an Indian chief presiding over a pow-wow. Maybe "ten" was taken as a general term to indicate a large number at the meeting, i.e., anything more than just a few. Gerald Cohen From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 16:56:01 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:56:01 -0700 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2004, at 4:57 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > as arnold well knows, this mismatch has been looked at formally in > so-called "linguistic insecurity" studies... yes, i should have cited this literature. and also made it clear that there are two rather different sorts of examples in what's been posted so far; they differ in the degree to which speakers are aware of an alternation. the classic linguistic insecurity studies involved variables that people were aware of; usually, they'd been instructed, formally or informally, that one variant was "wrong" or "bad" or "incorrect". g-dropping and the possessive antecedent proscription are two such cases. (i have yet to find anyone who has a problem with things like "Mary's mother admires her" who *wasn't* taught a "rule".) in such cases, we get misreporting, sometimes hypercorrection, sometimes (as with split infinitives) avoidance. but the "skreek" (for "street") and "quater" (for "quarter") cases are somewhat different. the level of social awareness of the non-standard variants hovers near zero; it's the sort of thing only a linguist would notice. still, the spellings provide a model for how the words "should" be pronounced, so people believe that they *do* pronounce them that way. there are many other types of cases, of course. even when there's instruction, some non-standard variants are much more accessible to awareness than others; for example, it's hugely easier to get AAVE-speaking kids to notice (and standardize, for classroom purposes) multiple negation than habitual "be". and when there's no instruction, people who use the non-standard variant often simply take it to be perfectly ordinary; this is my position on the GoToGo construction ("She's going to San Francisco and talk on firewalls"). our grad student laura staum estimates that about 20% of american speakers (at least those on the internet) use such examples and judge them to be acceptable; the others view them as speech errors. i'm a GoToGo speaker -- the example above was from me -- and my first response on having the construction called to my attention was to ask, "how else would you say that?" (the answer is: the longer "She's going to go to San Francisco and talk about firewalls", or the semantically non-equivalent "She's going to San Francisco to talk about firewalls".) well, there's more still. and, as dInIs noted, trained linguists are no better at judging which variants they use, how often, than normal people. how could we be? we're too busy talking and writing to monitor the details of our productions. hell, we're not even very good at estimating, off the cuff, the frequency of features in corpora, since some instances escape our notice and others weigh too heavily. transcribing data and hand-counting instances of features are both tremendously difficult (and tedious) -- despite the fact that we're trying to be as aware as possible. ok, this is preaching to the choir... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 18:47:08 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:47:08 -0700 Subject: the respelling tactic Message-ID: from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": --------- The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely different from niggers and thus acceptable. ---------- ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", "ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers if she told them that she spelled these words differently. whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it provides for the same pronunciation. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 3 19:44:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:11 EDT Subject: When in doubt, punt (1923) or mumble (1970) Message-ID: WHEN IN DOUBT, PUNT--1,180 Google hits, 138 Google Groups hits WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE--1,580 Google hits, 3,150 Google Groups hits Another look at these. Nothing early on "punt" in THE SPORTING NEWS. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (punt) Ironwood Daily Globe Saturday, October 06, 1923 Ironwood, Michigan ...encourages tho quarter to PUNT WHEN IN DOUBT; that on every perfectly executed.....ho marjo a good nhowlng IN Tnnncssec; PUNT Is Football's Greatest Play, Says.. Pg. 8, col. 4: _Punt Is Football's Greatest Play,_ _Says Famous Grid Coach_ By ROBERT C. ZUPPKE Football Coach, University of Illinois, Author of "Football Technique and Tactics" A sound football system teaches its quarterback and captain that the punt is its greatest play and encourages the quarter to punt when in doubt; the on every perfectly executed punt, backed up by a well drilled team, the ball is given to the opponents in exchange for 40 yards of valuable territory. News Thursday, October 11, 1923 Frederick, Maryland ...encourages the quarter to PUNT WHEN IN DOUBT: that on every perfectly executed.....BootleggINg. PLEADS GUILTY IN COURT PUNT Is Football's Greatest Play, Says.. Appleton Post Crescent Saturday, October 11, 1924 Appleton, Wisconsin ...to his field general Is, "WHEN IN DOUBT as to what to do, PUNT." BAGGAGE.....durINg the Beanon. welpfhed 1 55 WHEN he reported IN the sprINg, 185 WHEN.. Iowa City Press Citizen Saturday, October 11, 1924 Iowa City, Iowa ...Saturday at 9 a. m. .V.-i WHEN IN DOUBT PUNT JBob iiuppke of IlUnois is.....to 'his field general is, "wjien IN DOUBT as what to .do, .pun't" otograph.. Bee Monday, October 13, 1924 Danville, Virginia ...must they vote for a jew. N IN "DOUBT. PUNT Coach Bob Zuppke of.....to his field general is. "WHEN IN DOUBT as to what to. do. PUNT." one the.. Lima News Sunday, October 26, 1924 Lima, Ohio ...it n fi.rwurd pits, from I WHEN IN DOUBT, PUNT Kt'lkeiIN luiy. lirmiKlil.....do, of to bIN field general "whfn IN DOUBT to what to Now Is The Time To.. (GOOGLE) Goffstown Youth Football Association ... PREVIOUS MONTHS QUOTES. Jan 2002. "When in doubt Punt. ... Answer: Bob Zuppke- Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest minds. ... screamineagles.com/CoachesQuote/gyfaquot.html - 48k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages ("John Heisman" is given credit for "When in doubt, punt"--ed.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (mumble) Edwardsville Intelligencer Saturday, August 22, 1970 Edwardsville, Illinois ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE. Qualified Bureaucrat.....obfus'cation. With its motto WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE and Us coat of arms a.. (This date is actually August 24, 1970, as with the other cites below--ed.) Pg. 1, col. 4: _Group Is Champion of Red Tape_ Washington (AP) Bothered by progress and understanding? The National Association of Professional Bureaucrats stands ready to help get you back to a confused and furious standstill. (...) With tis motto "when in double, mumble" and its coat of arms a rampant duck snarled in red tape, NATAPROBU now boasts some 300 members and claims an international division. (...)(Col. 5--ed.) Helpful also is NATAPROBU's executive pencil with an eraser on each end. The organization motto comes from the guidelines enunciated by James H. Boren, founder, president and chairman ot the board of the association. These guidelines, which all bureaucratic members are required to memorize, are: "when in charge, ponder; when in trouble, delegate; when in doubt, mumble." Stevens Point Daily Journal Monday, August 24, 1970 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...WHEN hi trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....1 UN ITED -BUREAUCRATS i n i WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE Economy As WASHINGTON (AP.. Ironwood Daily Globe Monday, August 24, 1970 Ironwood, Michigan ...cases IN federal courts. 'WHEN IN DOUBT MUMBLE' NATAPROBU Dedicated to.....WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.. Sheboygan Press Monday, August 24, 1970 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE' Is Motto Of The NATAPROBU.. Iowa City Press Citizen Monday, August 24, 1970 Iowa City, Iowa ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate: WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren i.a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms a.. Lima News Monday, August 24, 1970 Lima, Ohio ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coal of arms a.. Chronicle Telegram Monday, August 24, 1970 Elyria, Ohio ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms, a.. Gettysburg Times Monday, August 24, 1970 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...WHEN IN trou ble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat, of arms, a.. Indiana Evening Gazette Monday, August 24, 1970 Indiana, Pennsylvania ...by progress and ble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, i nencils stands ready to help.....get you MUMBLE pencils. back to a confused and.. Daily Times News Monday, August 24, 1970 Burlington, North Carolina ...obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms a.....IN care of this newspaper.) IN DOUBT, MUMBLE' Now The Bureaucrats Even.. (GOOGLE GROUPS) WTB: When in Doubt, Mumble A friend is looking to buy When in Doubt, Mumble, by James Boren. Please send information including price and condition to charyk at inforamp.net Linda rec.arts.books.marketplace - Aug 23, 1995 by Field of Roses - View Thread (1 article) When in Doubt, Mumble Founded in 1968, the club (motto "when in doubt, mumble") promotes excellence in "dynamic inaction, orbital dialoguing and creative non-responsiveness". ... alt.usage.english - Apr 15, 1996 by Matthew Rabuzzi - View Thread (1 article) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 3 20:34:58 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: spelling matters Message-ID: arnold writes: >whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the writing system in the minds of its users. < ~~~~~~~~~ Something like this thought passed through my mind when *nuclear/nucular/ nuke* were being discussed here last week. It occurred to me that a speaker (if any such exists) who did employ "nucular" for atomic reference, but "nuclear" in other contexts might be thinking "nukular" derived from "nuke." A. Murie From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 4 10:20:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:20:41 -0400 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: <630098B4-CD21-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Once again arnold gets to say all the clever stuff, and I follow up >with the references. Readers intereted in (some of) the social >meansings of respellings should consult the special issue of the >Journal of Sociolinguistics (ed. by Alexandra Jaffe) on just this >topic. It's Volume 4, #4, November 2000. dInIs > from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial >Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": > >--------- >The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state >their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified >teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely >different from niggers and thus acceptable. >---------- > >ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", >"ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses >is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is >an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" >and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers >if she told them that she spelled these words differently. > >whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the >writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting >exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the >english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it >provides for the same pronunciation. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 23:31:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:31:45 -0700 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 4, 2004, at 3:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> Once again arnold gets to say all the clever stuff, and I follow up >> with the references. i am a lazy person, and good at getting other people to do my work for me. this is why we have grad students, no? (now, if only i could get an institution to pay me to get other people to do my work for me...) >> Readers intereted in (some of) the social >> meansings of respellings should consult the special issue of the >> Journal of Sociolinguistics (ed. by Alexandra Jaffe) on just this >> topic. It's Volume 4, #4, November 2000. good reference. thanks, dInIs. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), working at home, away from his office/library/study From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 4 10:15:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:15:30 EDT Subject: Eat Off (1948?); Offer you can't refuse; New Yorker Message-ID: EAT OFF EAT OFF + CONTEST--827 Google hits, 159 Google Group hits I've done the Pillsbury "bake off" and "cook off" and "rib off" (a ripoff), but not "eat off." See the 1948 "clam off" "eat off" in Seattle. Did they really call it that in 1948--before the Pillsbury "bake off" even began? Is there a good way to verify what they called in in 1948? (GOOGLE NEWS) Posted on Sat, Jul. 03, 2004 Sideshow, sport or stunt? Competitive eating goes big time By PAULINE ARRILLAGA The Associated Press (...) In 1997, Nathan’s launched eat-offs in several U.S. cities to lure America’s top gurgitators to the table on Independence Day. But it occurred to the Sheas and their cabernet-quaffing friends: Why limit this endeavor to Nathan’s? To New York? Indeed, to hot dogs? (GOOGLE) http://www.ivars.net/Timeline_Home/1948.html East vs. West and Acres of Clams...The first clam eating contest was held at (where else?) Pier 54. The winner was Richard Watson, a Seattle cabdriver, who gulped down 110 clams in 10 minutes and became the first ever IPFSACECA (The International Pacific Free Style Amateur Clam Eating Contest Association) World Champion Clam Eater. No sooner had Watson been crowned world champ than someone yelled "FOUL!" Ivar was shocked. "Who could possibly impugn the integrity of the IPFSACECA? We've only had one contest," he said, "and besides we make up our own rules." The grievance came from Massachusetts, of all places, and came from a truck driver named Joe Silva. "Your boy," Joe claimed, "cannot possibly be the Clam Eating Champion of the world until he defends his title against the East Coast Champion, namely me."Ivar carefully considered the situation. Two clam eating champions? Competing in Seattle for the world title? This was too good to be true. After deliberating for a good two or three seconds, he accepted the challenge. The stage was set for the great East versus West Clam Eat Off of 1948. The great East vs. West Clam Eat Off of 1948 ended in victory for Seattle cabdriver RIchard Watson. He is shown above receiving the coveted title crown from Ivar and congratulations from East Coast challenger Joe Silva. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Japan's top glutton squared off against the world hot dog eating ... ... George Shea, a promoter for Nathan's Famous, the restaurant that sponsored the contest. ... record, which he set July 4 at Nathan's annual Coney Island eat-off. ... alt.gossip.royalty - Dec 5, 1996 by patdwfsyte at aol.com - View Thread (1 article) REPOST: The big eat-off ... What it appears that your knowledgable news sources have overlooked is the famous pie-eating contest between Nell and Oprah Winfrey. ... alt.tasteless - Sep 10, 1994 by Mike Weber - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE This is from Marlon Brando in THE GODFATHER, of course. Before that, it appears that it had some currency with used car salesmen. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Atchison Daily Globe Friday, March 15, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....2 1949 HUDSON 4-Dr. Sedan Make An OFFER EKL AUTO CO. 216 Com'l. Phone 3123.. Atchison Daily Globe Sunday, March 17, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....Chicks are roven winners. YOU can save 25% cost with Personal Choice.. Atchison Daily Globe Friday, March 15, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....2 1949 HUDSON 4-Dr. Sedan Make An OFFER EKL AUTO CO. 216 Com'l. Phone 3123.. Bridgeport Telegram Saturday, June 11, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...for themselves. HERE IS AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE TERMS Jl 50 WEEKLY OI-KN A.....SATURDAY, JUNE 11, 1927 II: I, TWO OFFER Only One Teacher on Staff of.. Bridgeport Telegram Saturday, June 04, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...for themselves. HERE IS AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE OPEN MONDAY AND SATURDAY.....4160 "A Real Nature Last" "A Shoe YOU Can Wear Without Breaking In" "BASS.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW YORKER Today's FYI section of the NEW YORK TIMES repeats the myth that George Washington was the first person to use "New Yorker." I debunked this many years ago, right here. The TIMES is serious about accuracy and will correct this right away. From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Sun Jul 4 11:05:47 2004 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:05:47 EDT Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: Arnold, I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, and it is used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in length. Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. Where are the people from who use this form? Lois Nathan From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 4 12:23:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:23:44 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <136.30639a69.2e193e8b@aol.com> Message-ID: >Has anyone yet speculated that "mmmkay" may be a blend of the first >part of the variant of uh-huh which is completely nasal, plus the >second part of "OK," or is that too obvious to even note? It's not entirely obvious to me, at any rate. "Mmmmkay" might on the other hand be a combination of "Hmmmmm" + "OK." If so, one would expect to find a distribution in which "mmmkay" would indicate less certainty than "uh-huh" or "OK," putting aside the back-channel uses of all of them, itself a difficult task. dInIs >Arnold, > I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, and it is >used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in length. > Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. Where >are the people from who use this form? > >Lois Nathan From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 5 00:34:03 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:34:03 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down here, too." I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence Day! -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 01:37:12 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:37:12 -0700 Subject: wedded to the hyphen Message-ID: from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge to Go West, p. 6: ----------- ...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made him wealthy, Kool-Aid. ----------- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 5 02:00:52 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:00:52 -0400 Subject: wedded to the hyphen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, the ironies of fate. Incredibly rich(assuming he patented and retained control of the patent), but he lost his hyphen. Jim Stalker stalker at msu.edu Arnold M. Zwicky writes: > from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david > howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge > to Go West, p. 6: > > ----------- > ...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. > Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose > imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, > Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made > him wealthy, Kool-Aid. > ----------- > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 02:56:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:56:55 -0400 Subject: New Yorker (1746, 1749, 1751, 1754) Message-ID: "Although Washington lived in New York only briefly, the earliest known use of the term "New Yorker" in a published work is found in a letter he wrote in 1756." ---NEW YORK TIMES, FYI, City section, 4 July 2004 As I told the New York Times, I'd debunked the George Washington "New Yorker" coinage myth years ago. Here are database citations: (EARLY ENCOUNTERS IN NORTH AMERICA) Colden, Lord Cadwallader, 1688-1776, Letters and Papers of Cadwallader Colden, vol. 9: 1749-1775. New York, NY: New York Historical Society, 1937, pp. 489. [Bibliographic Details] Previous page Page 62 rom John Colden Janry 17th 1749/50 Hond Sir On New Years day I had the great happiness to receive yours of Decr 25th & I hope there is now Letters again for me in Town by Mr Mathews who I hear is just now Come to Town but don't know where to find him & as Mr Crooke is goeing out of Town tomorrow I cant delay writeing longer than this Evening; the Court being to meet early in the Morning. The letters to My Sisters &c. I have had by me wrote this three weeks but could Page 63 hear of no opperty to Convey them till now I delay'd writeing to you Sr & my Mother in hopes of having something to offer better worth your Acceptance & I must now beg my Mother, Br Colden & Br Cadwr to excuse my not writeing to them being fatigued & it being now Late but propose to Perform that Duty by Mr Mathew. The person that had spoke to Collins about the Land at Canajohary was Marte V Alstyne who offering so litle as £70 for the whole we are not like to Come to any Agreemt The new Judges [30] very much alter the Face of the Court here & Things I hope will go on agreably & I may now say that I have nothing to chagrin me & am in good health & Sr That You my Mother Brs & Sistrs &c. may enjoy the same & every other Blessing is the sincere Prayer of Dr Sr Your most Dutifull & Ever Obedt Son John Colden The Town is full of New Yorkers cheifly opponents who are endeavouring to make a Stir among the People for a new Election [Addressed:] [Cadw]allader Colden Esqr att Coldengham (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #7572 February 25, 1746 The Pennsylvania Gazette PHILADELPHIA, February 25. By a Gentleman from Virginia we are informed, that the Seven Transports, mentioned in our last, from Gibraltar, with the Forces for Cape Breton, and the two Men of War, their Convoy, are arrived in James River. Thursday last arrived the Privateer Snow Warren, of this Place, Capt. Kattur, from a Cruize. She took off of Cape Antonio a French Privateer Sloop, of 12 Carriage Guns, from Cape Francois, Capt. Quideaux; she had Fifty five Hands, and an English Pilot, on board, and was bound to the Havannah, to get more Men, to come and cruize on this Coast early in the Spring. Capt. Kattur likewise retook the Schooner Endeavour, belonging to this Port, which had been taken by the above Privateer: He sent both Privateer and Schooner to Providence. Capt. Kattur informs us, that the Privateer Snow Dreadnought, of St. Christophers, Capt. Cunningham, lately refitted here, being on a Cruize to the Windward of Cape Francois, on the 15th of November last, fell in with two Privateers of New York, and one of Bermuda. The same Day they saw five Sail of French Merchantmen (Part of the Fleet whose Convoy had an Engagement with some of our Men of War lately in the Windward Passage) whom the Privateers all agreed to fight. Captain Cunningham accordingly engaged the Frenchmen, but was assisted by none of his Consorts; and after exchanging some Broadsides with them, bore down upon the Privateers, to know the Reason of their not coming up: They made some frivolous Excuse, and told him, that if he would engage a second time, they would give him all the Assistance they could. Upon which, he next Day engaged four of the Ships very smartly under his Lee, during which Time the << New Yorkers>> dropt astern. Capt. Cunningham finding there was no Help to be expected from them, got from the Ships as well as he could, and again bore down on them, to know why they used him so basely; they could not excuse themselves, but desired him to engage a third time, and they would certainly come up, which he refused, and went to Jamaica to (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #12897 May 2, 1751 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, April 29. Yesterday arrived here Capt. Tucker in a sloop, and Capt. Foster in a Brigt. from Antigua. We hear that this Day a great Cricket Match is to be playon our Commons by a Company of London against a Company of << New Yorkers>> . (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #13482 September 12, 1751 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, Sept. 9. Friday Morning last Jonathan Woodman, the Person who was committed to our Jail some Time ago for uttering Counterfeit Twenty Shilling Bills of this Province, was found hanging dead in his Garters at the Grate of his Prison: -- Tis said he had been under Terrors and Anguish of Mind for some Time past; which his Confederate has been pleased to say, was occasioned by his Guilt for impeaching of him, and is now in Hopes, as there is no other material Evidence against him, that he will get clear, tho'he appears to have been the greatest Rogue of the two. However that be, this Woodman from his first Commitment, apprehended he must die; and therefore is supposed to be either so charitable, as to think to save the Hangman the Labour, or else hung himself to save his Life: And a Pity the other would not follow his Example; as all such Pests of Society ought to be lookon as scarce worthy of the Labour of a Hangman. --- There were two Men in the same Jail with him, who were asleep when he did it, and knew nothing of the Matter till they found him hanging in the Morning. We have Advice from Halifax in Nova Scotia, that there is such a Number of << New Yorkers>> got to that Place, since the first Settlement of it, as well nearly fill one of the largest Streets in the Town, and that they are about to form themselves in one Street, into a Society or Company by the Name of the Free New York Fishery Company at Nova Scotia; and that all that shall hereafter come there from new York, provided they come as one of King DavidSoldiers, (See 1 (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) TEM #16704 March 26, 1754 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, March 18. Capt. White of the Snow Charming Sally, who was reported in our late News papers to be blown off this Coast the Beginning of November, bound in here, from Waterford in Ireland, and to have put into Antigua, arrived here on Friday last in 18 Days from the Virgin Islands: He advises of the safe Arrival thither of Capt. Tingley in a Sloop of this Port, from Antigua: That several << New Yorkers>> , and other Northern Vessels were at those Islands preparing for their Return home, as fast as the Crops would admit: And that the Night in which he sailfrom St. Eustatia, a large French Schooner, in the From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 03:23:56 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:23:56 -0400 Subject: wedded to the hyphen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:00 PM -0400 7/4/04, James C Stalker wrote: >Ah, the ironies of fate. Incredibly rich(assuming he patented and retained >control of the patent), but he lost his hyphen. > >Jim Stalker >stalker at msu.edu > Maybe he lost his hyphen riding his bi-cycle. L > >Arnold M. Zwicky writes: > >>from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david >>howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge >>to Go West, p. 6: >> >>----------- >>...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. >>Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose >>imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, >>Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made >>him wealthy, Kool-Aid. >>----------- >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jul 5 03:31:04 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:31:04 -0500 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: <20040704203042.I18812@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >here, too." > >I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >Day! > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 04:43:22 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:43:22 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <136.30639a69.2e193e8b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jul 4, 2004, at 4:05 AM, Lois Nathan wrote: > I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, > and it is > used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in > length. > Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. > Where > are the people from who use this form? as i explained in my first posting on this, i first became aware of it *in print* (though now i realize i must have heard it on South Park, without catching its significance). the web hits have a vaguely southern tilt, but that's hard to judge. the quotation from Genre probably isn't of southern origin, but Genre's writing is self-consciously hip, and the "mmmkay?" almost surely comes from South Park. i was hoping that someone both phonetically and socilinguistically adept would have looked at this... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 5 15:08:27 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:08:27 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: Members of these lists might want to know that Robert Burchfield, former Chief Editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, died this morning after a long illness. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 5 17:12:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:12 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: <20040705040246.26EB022871@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: >Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >here, too." > >I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >Day! Barbara Need answered: >>> Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. <<< I assume you weren't taking my wife's "theory" seriously! I noticed this one just because we, too, have come down from Massachusetts. We lived there from 1980 to 2002 -- briefly in Brighton, then in Marlboro for a couple of years, then in Framingham from about 1983 on. I moved to the Philadelphia to work in about September of 2002, and a year later bought a house and brought my family down as well. When we first came to the Boston area we were surprised by the term "jimmies", which we were unfamiliar with, and then quickly learned that it was local to the area, and adopted it ourselves. We have seldom if ever heard it outside New England. But you left Philadelphia just about as we were setting up in Massachusetts, over 20 years ago. Should it be surprising if the word has jumped or spread from Boston to Philadelphia, with or without skipping New York, in a generation? Especially if carried by a generation of college students. I have one data point now, plus hearsay, all from the same informant, a college-age woman working in a store serving a mostly university population across the street from an Ivy League campus. I don't know how widespread the word is in Philadelphia overall, but I would not be at all surprised if it were somewhat well-known among the students and totally unfamiliar further out. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:37:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:37:38 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism Message-ID: i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the triggering of negative-polarity "any": (NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) ------- It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps any American, could not resolve. ------- this has a parenthetical conjunct NP "and perhaps any American", with a negative-polarity "any" in it that is apparently triggered by the negative VP "could not resolve". the problem is that when we unpack the coordination into two relative clauses, we get: problems that Mr. Bremer could not resolve and problems that perhaps any American could not resolve the second of which is ungrammatical, or only very marginally acceptable, because the "any" precedes the trigger "not": it's the same problem as *Any American could not resolve these problems. fixing the second to problems that perhaps no American could resolve no longer allows it to combine with the first in such a way that two subject NPs are coordinated: *problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps no American, could (not) resolve there *are* solutions, with "conjunct raising" (nonconstituent coordination) -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not, and perhaps no American could, resolve or with a postposed negative tag -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, nor perhaps could any American problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, and perhaps no American could or with a postposed noncoordinate parenthetical -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve (perhaps no American could). but the first is awkward (conjunct raising in general seems to present perceptual difficulties that constituent coordination does not) and the other two don't put Mr. Bremer and Americans in general into a direct comparison. all three are also longer than the version that appeared in the article. so: go for a punchy direct comparison, and you fall afoul of NPI triggering. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:47:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:47:39 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal >modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, >errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in >agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism >in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the >triggering of negative-polarity "any": > >(NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial >America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) >------- >It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps >any American, could not resolve. >------- I actually noticed this one. But for me, it's not terrible, since there's a free-choice reading for the "any", so the offending clause below ("Any American could not resolve these problems"). A lot worse is the variant I've not infrequently noticed of the form ...that Bremer, and perhaps no American, could resolve. Clearly, in Jerry Cohen's terms, a syntactic blend of "Bremer could not resolve..." and "No American could resolve". But on the same footing with, say, "*one of the best, if not THE best, {resolution/resolutions}..." > >this has a parenthetical conjunct NP "and perhaps any American", with a >negative-polarity "any" not necessarily, as noted. Larry > in it that is apparently triggered by the >negative VP "could not resolve". the problem is that when we unpack >the coordination into two relative clauses, we get: > problems that Mr. Bremer could not resolve > and > problems that perhaps any American could not resolve >the second of which is ungrammatical, or only very marginally >acceptable, because the "any" precedes the trigger "not": it's the >same problem as > *Any American could not resolve these problems. > >fixing the second to > problems that perhaps no American could resolve >no longer allows it to combine with the first in such a way that two >subject NPs are coordinated: > *problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps no American, could (not) >resolve > >there *are* solutions, with "conjunct raising" (nonconstituent >coordination) -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not, and perhaps no American could, >resolve >or with a postposed negative tag -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, nor perhaps could any >American > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, and perhaps no American >could >or with a postposed noncoordinate parenthetical -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve (perhaps no American could). >but the first is awkward (conjunct raising in general seems to present >perceptual difficulties that constituent coordination does not) and the >other two don't put Mr. Bremer and Americans in general into a direct >comparison. all three are also longer than the version that appeared >in the article. > >so: go for a punchy direct comparison, and you fall afoul of NPI >triggering. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:54:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:54:37 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal >modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, >errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in >agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism >in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the >triggering of negative-polarity "any": > >(NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial >America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) >------- >It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps >any American, could not resolve. >------- On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't involve a conjunctive blend: Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive after watching this film. http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=12&screen=news&news_id=33015 (re Lars von Trier's "Dogville", if you're curious) L From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 20:12:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't > involve a conjunctive blend: > > Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I > would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive > after watching this film. this one i find hugely better than Any American could not resolve these problems. the Dogville critique is better, i think because "couldn't help but" is in fact semantically positive, roughly equivalent to "would". i have tremendous trouble with free-choice "any" subjects with semantically negative VPs. i realize this is subtle, since things like Any American would be unable to resolve these problems. Any American would fail to resolve these problems. are fine free-choice sentences for me. but i do understand that there are dialect differences on the truly negative sentences. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 20:23:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:23:38 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <9B374E02-CEBF-11D8-A12C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 1:12 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't >>involve a conjunctive blend: >> >>Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I >>would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive >>after watching this film. > >this one i find hugely better than > Any American could not resolve these problems. >the Dogville critique is better, i think because "couldn't help but" is >in fact semantically positive, roughly equivalent to "would". > >i have tremendous trouble with free-choice "any" subjects with >semantically negative VPs. i realize this is subtle, since things like > Any American would be unable to resolve these problems. > Any American would fail to resolve these problems. >are fine free-choice sentences for me. > >but i do understand that there are dialect differences on the truly >negative sentences. > How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our viewing pleasure: consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come along and drop your tables "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone can't just waltz into their place of business." But anyone can't solve that problem... The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel Just anybody can't baptize anybody. People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody can't give it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on my desktop and start loading things. With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to realize that just anybody can't be governor From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 20:59:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:59:51 EDT Subject: "I've got a gun, and I'm not afraid to use it!" Message-ID: Calm down. Just a phrase. I don't have a gun. Actually, I've got Microsoft Windows and I'm completely afraid to use it. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=369023 Subject: for pinkfreud-ga only, "I've got a gun and..." Category: Arts and Entertainment > Movies and Film Asked by: mathtalk-ga List Price: $50.00 Posted: 02 Jul 2004 12:38 PDT Expires: 01 Aug 2004 12:38 PDT Question ID: 369023 "...I'm not afraid to use it." This line has been used to humorous effect, but my aging brain cells cannot recall its original context. I think it was an action movie,and the villain, who is getting the upperhand on the hero, is threatened by the heroine with this line. (I believe it turns out sheis too afraid to use the weapon effectively, but somehow the momentary distraction turns the tide.) Please, pinkfreud, recall for me my lost (suppressed?) memories &soothe my anxieties... deepest, mathtalk-ga Subject: Re: for pinkfreud-ga only, "I've got a gun and..." Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 03 Jul 2004 14:28 PDT Rated: Dearest MT, Sometimes a Google search can become an obsession. Yesterday, today, and even as I slept, I have tried to track down a filmic source for the line "I've got a gun and I'm not afraid to useit" (or variants such as "I have a gun and I know how to use it.") While I found umpty-jillion references to the line, not one was fromanything resembling an original source such as a classic film noir, anold radio drama, or a Sam Spade-type hard-boiled detective novel (oreven a Nero Wolfe-type deep-fat-fried detective novel). Doggone it, Iwas hoping for Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler. Woulda settled for Mickey Spillane. But, as far as old sources go, I came up withzilch. El zippo. Diddly. Zeroni. Bupkis. Nada. To sum up, I got plenty o' nuttin'. It is my belief that "I've got a gun and I'm not afraid to use it" isa recent coinage that *sounds* like a line from an old movie, but isn't. Rather, it is a condensation of the sort of stereotypicalutterances that one associates with vintage melodramas of the Bogartilk. Campbell's Cream of Mock Cliché. Mmmm-mmmm good. (...) Recent coinage? Why do these guys always look on Google? Are they not allowed to use books or to check databases? Doesn't the correct answer come before the Google product plug? It pre-dates the movies...By the way, $50 is about half of my etymology earnin gs FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Syracuse Herald Sunday, February 18, 1906 Syracuse, New York ...was since. in her pocket and was not AFRAID TO USE IT.' Who Jimmy the But he.....TO his fancied you promise TO explain TO IT was. TO do that you came here TO.. Pg. 6, col. 3: "But that was absurd, too, since, admittedly, she had a pistol in her pocket and was not afraid to use it." Indianapolis Star Friday, July 11, 1913 Indianapolis, Indiana ...revolver in my pocket and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' was then that the.....Winters of .Newcastle, wITh fraudulent USE of the miills, IT IS charged thai.. (The date appears to read 1918, not 1913--ed.) Pg. 5, col. 1: "At this the young man in front said: 'I am not looking for trouble, but if you want it I warn you that I have a loaded revolver in my pocket and I'm not afraid to use it.'" Van Wert Daily Bulletin Wednesday, March 30, 1932 Van Wert, Ohio ...extra guard. I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT." Mr. Sands smiled.....by advance' by employment and USE of materials, TO aU the country. The.. (DAILY SHORT STORY "CALL ME POP" by Francis Paul Pyne--ed.) Pg. 4, col. 2: "Please, if you don't mind, Mr. Sands, I'd like to do this last job myself and without an extra guard. I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it." Monessen Daily Independent Friday, November 22, 1935 Monessen, Pennsylvania ...gun wITh a silencer and that he's not AFRAID TO USE IT." He began TO pace the.....on the floor and then fired a shot at IT TO slow that he's got a.. Pg. 13, col. 1: (From THE LEATHER MASTERS by John Nicholas--ed.) "He sneaked into this room, put the paper on the floor and then fired a shot at it to show that he's got a gun with a silencer and that he's not afraid to use it." Council Bluffs Nonpareil Thursday, November 27, 1952 Council Bluffs, Iowa ...read: "I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT; Put 10s, 20s and 100s in this.....orally: "Put in more 100s; I'm not AFRAID TO USE this Teller Josephine.. Pg. 10, col. 6: _Grandma Strikes_ _Again; Gets $267_ _from Bank in L.A._ LOS ANGELES, AP--Grandma has struck for the third time, pulled another bank holdup and made a clean getaway. Los Angeles gray-haired, cap pistol-totin' bandit shoved a note into a teller's cage Wednesday. It read: "I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it. Put 10s, 20s amd 100s in this sack." And Grandma added, orally: "Put in more 100s; I'm not afraid to use this gun." Lowell Sun Tuesday, May 12, 1953 Lowell, Massachusetts ...TO me. I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE -IT." Not believing what she read.....presented TO the enemy "shortly and I USE the word advisedly." Pope Calls for.. Pg. 1, Col. 3: Miss Aldrich took the proffered note and becaem terror-stricken when she read its contents. "This is a stickup," it read, "put the money in the folder and hand it to me. I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it." Edwardsville Intelligencer Tuesday, November 22, 1955 Edwardsville, Illinois ...she stared, not understanding. I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT; bul I don't want any.....days. I've kept IT well hidden. Here USE Dan TOok the gun He held IT, felt.. Nevada State Journal Sunday, August 01, 1965 Reno, Nevada ...LOOK vou TAKE THIS, JUST IN CASE YOU KNOW HOW .TO USE ONE OF THESE? WHY.....MINT HUH GIT PAROLED. FREE. 'FOR6 KNOW IT.' STRAHGE. TWASmesmC STRANGE.. LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE POLICEMAN (handing a gun to a grandma): LOOK! YOU TAKE THIS JUST IN CASE! YOU KNOW HOW TO USE ONE OF THESE? Walla Walla Union Bulletin Thursday, November 18, 1965 Walla Walla, Washington ...of public 'I've go a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT-' Fired Mora Shots.....Robinson, 16, who said he wanted TO go TO Cuba TO help anti-Castro.. Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter Thursday, November 18, 1965 Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin ...he said: 'I've got a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' "Then he fired three.....1.35-50; Wisconsin medium yillow jwhat IT was supposed TO be TO i room and a.. Stevens Point Daily Journal Thursday, November 18, 1965 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...he said: I've got a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' "Then he fired three.....just north of the village and plans TO USE the FHA funds TO construct a nine.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WELL DONE, SHERIFF WHITLOCK. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 27, 1903. p. 6 (1 page) : A Danville mob is quite as dangerous as a Belleville one, but it ran up against a determined sheriff who had a riot gun and who was not afraid to use it. LAWYER RAVES IN CELL.; FEDERAL ATTORNEY BECOMES VIOLENT AND ATTACKS MAN. Attacks Man in Street. Threatens a Policeman. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 24, 1905. p. 2 (1 page): "'You don't look good to me,' he said, and caught me one under the jaw. 'Look out, ' I says; 'I've got a gun here, and I'm not afraid to use it on you, either.'" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 21:41:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:41:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: from a by now virtual native speaker... --- begin forwarded text To: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:36:32 EDT From: "Ellen F. Prince" >Do you know from jimmies in Philly? > >L That's what they're called here. That's the ONLY thing they're called here. And that was what they were called when we moved here in 1967. Some people seem to know the term sprinkles but the ones I've discussed this with think sprinkles is only for the multi-colored, non-chocolate kind. I never knew they were also called jimmies in Boston. Live and learn. Ellen >--- begin forwarded text > >Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:12 -0400 >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia > >I wrote: > >>Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >>Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >>shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >>behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >>said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >>word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >>here, too." >> >>I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >>Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >>Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >>British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >>current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >>Day! > >Barbara Need answered: > >>> > >Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, >1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have >noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. > <<< > >I assume you weren't taking my wife's "theory" seriously! > >I noticed this one just because we, too, have come down from Massachusetts. >We lived there from 1980 to 2002 -- briefly in Brighton, then in Marlboro >for a couple of years, then in Framingham from about 1983 on. I moved to >the Philadelphia to work in about September of 2002, and a year later bought >a house and brought my family down as well. > >When we first came to the Boston area we were surprised by the term >"jimmies", which we were unfamiliar with, and then quickly learned that it >was local to the area, and adopted it ourselves. We have seldom if ever >heard it outside New England. > >But you left Philadelphia just about as we were setting up in Massachusetts, >over 20 years ago. Should it be surprising if the word has jumped or spread >from Boston to Philadelphia, with or without skipping New York, in a >generation? Especially if carried by a generation of college students. I >have one data point now, plus hearsay, all from the same informant, a >college-age woman working in a store serving a mostly university population >across the street from an Ivy League campus. I don't know how widespread >the word is in Philadelphia overall, but I would not be at all surprised if >it were somewhat well-known among the students and totally unfamiliar >further out. > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > >--- end forwarded text > --- end forwarded text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 23:18:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:18:54 EDT Subject: Jachnun, Lafa, Matbucha, Melawah, Shakshoukah, Zhug (Yemen cuisine) Message-ID: MELAWAH MELAWAH--28 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits LAFA + BREAD--128 Google hits, 17 Google Groups hits LAFAH + BREAD--13 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hits JACHNOON--76 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits JACHNUN--258 Google hits, 15 Google Groups hits SHAKSHOUKA--1,700 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits MATBUCHA--1,-28 Google hits, 23 Google Groups hits MUJADDARAH--1-2 Google hits, 9 Google Groups hits (Jachnoon, Jachnun, Lafa, Matbucha, Melawah, Mujaddarah, Shakshoukah, Zhug are all not in the OED) On my July 4th walk back from Grant's Tomb and Columbia, I stopped by a kosher Yeminite place called "Alibaba" on 515 Amsterdam, between 84th and 85th Streets. I briefly discussed Yemen cuisine here before (June 2002), but there aren't a whole lot of books to look at. From the menu at www.alibabaNY.com: Breakfast First SHAKSHOUKA--Eggs, fresh tomatoes, tomato sauce and green peppers Salad Delights MATBUCHA--Cooked tomatoes, peppers and garlic Soups for a King KOOBAH--Beef stock with meatballs wrapped in semolina dough On the Side MEJADARAH--Rice and lentils topped with fresh onions Veggie Delicacies MELAWAH--Lightly fried dough served with seasoned crushed tomatoes (hard boiled egg recommended) JACHNOON--Unique and delicious rolled, oven-baked dough served with crushed tomatoes, chilies (hard boiled egg recommended) HABIS--Humus and fava beans topped with onions, parsley, olive oil and two pitas (Hard-boiled egg recommended) LAFAH--Homemade Yemenite pita bread] ZCHUG (Yemenite hit sauce)--Hot pepper, garlic, cilantro and 12 different spices (GOOGLE) (melawah) Alibaba in Upper West Side in New York Metro's Guide to ... ... of brown rice and black beans on Alibaba's menu, a compendium of Middle Eastern fare like koufta kebabs, baba ghanoush, bourekas, and melawah (lightly fried ... www.newyorkmetro.com/pages/details/2434.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages The Jerusalem Report Magazine: Goodtaste : Good Taste Article ... $13.95). We also tried the luscious house specialty, melawah, a pizza look-alike crusted with a thin pan-fried puff pastry. Then ... www.jrep.com/Goodtaste/Article-4.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Lilian-Class ... This food comes from Yemen. The Melawah is a kind of fried pancake but it isn't sweet, it's salty. The Melawah is made of paste and eaten with tomato sauce. ... groups.msn.com/Lilian-Class/classletters6.msnw - 28k - Cached - Similar pages Nadine Abensur's Spicy Warm Potato Salad with a Moorish Influence ... To serve, make a quick imitation of a real Arabic bread – melawah – that is difficult to find and notoriously difficult to make (or so I have always been ... www.ivillage.co.uk/food/whoscooking/ recipes/articles/0,,182584_169942,00.html - 46k - Cached - Similar pages Dining in Eilat and the South ... Serving Israeli and International food at Massada Mountain, Dead Sea. (07) 658-4319. Nargila, Enjoy Yemenite specialities like jahnun and melawah. ... www.inisrael.com/helloisrael.net/rrants/eilat.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages The Jewish Agency For Israel: Mag-Net ... As the ceremony progressed, Yemenite food was served, including melawah (light fried dough) and jachnoon (rolled baked dough) with spicy sauce, meat and eggs. ... www.jafi.org.il/arts/2003/march/2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Cookbook: Mediterranean Grains & Greens Recipe List ... Technique for "knuckling" water into dough. Israeli-Yemenite Melawah with Grated Tomatoes, Zhug and Hard Cooked Eggs (Israel). Coriander ... www.paula-wolfert.com/books/medgrain_list.html - 82k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) ("lafa" and "bread") Recipe World ... LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="3583156207"> I believe you're talking about Lafa, or Iraqi pita, it's a common type of bread in the Middle East. ... groups.msn.com/RecipeWorld/ reciperequests.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0& ID_Message=45908&La... - 36k - Cached - Similar pages eLuna.com ... In a hurry? At Busi you can buy an authentic Middle Eastern sandwich consisting of meat and salad wrapped in Iraqi Lafa bread. Lafa ... www.eluna.com/rest/Busi.asp - 16k - Cached - Similar pages Jerusalem ... new people who had never had shwarma (kind of a wrap type thing with meat off the spit and great middle-eastern spices in Iraqi bread called lafa) we wanted to ... jerusalemjoy.blogdrive.com/ - 44k - Cached - Similar pages eGullet.com -> Friday night's Indian dinner ... the precious gravy, and had to buy some "Iraqi Pita" which is the NANiest bread I could ... It is also known here as "Lafa" (and in Jerusalem as Ash-Tanour) it is ... forums.egullet.com/show.php/ act/ST/f/40/t/26101/view/old - 21k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Preparing The Dishes; Yemenite High Holiday Soup Stew Hawayij (Yemenite spice combination) Yemenite Zhug (Ground spices with herbs) Helbeh (Dipping sauce made from fenugreek seeds and Zhug) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 17, 1980. p. C6 (1 page): Hawayij (Yemenite spice combination)... Yemenite Zhug (Ground spices with herbs)... Helbeh (Dipping sauce made from fenugreek seeds and Zhug).. Do You Speak Med-Rim? New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1994. p. C6 (1 page) : BAGELE Puffy-dough bread that looks like a large oval bagel and is sprinkled with sesame seeds. Sold in the streets of Jerusalem with little packets of za'atar wrapped in newspaper. CHELBA Yemenite orange-red hot-pepper sauce. DUKKAH Egyptian spice mixture of toasted and ground hazelnuts, cumin, coriander and sesame seeds. FATTOUSH Bread salad made with tomatoes, cucumber, radishes, toasted pita and sumac. HALVAH Grainy Middle Eastern sweet made from roasted sesame seeds and boiled sugar. HARISSA Fiery red-pepper paste from Tunisia, also used by Moroccans and Algerians. HILBEH Yemenite dip made from fenugreek seeds. HUMMUS Dip or spread of pureed chickpeas, tahini, garlic and lemon juice.\ HYSSOP A biublical herb, similar to wild marjoram, used fresh in salads and dired in za'atar. LABANEH Thick yogurt cheese. MATBUCHA Cooked Moroccan salad of tomatoes, red peppers and onions. "MED-RIM BREAD BASKET" Lafah (Iragi pita); lachuch (spongy Yemenite bread); Druze bread (soft and parchment thin); malahwach *Yemenite multi-layered fried bread); Lahmejune (Armenian flat bread). POMEGRANATE MOLASSES Thick piquant syrup or concentrate made from reduced pomegranate juice, sugar and lemon, used for salads and in cooked foods. SABRA A sweet desert prickly pear with thorny, thin skin'; available in summer. SHARON FRUIT Sweet and aromatic tomato-shaped fruit developed in Israel from the persimmon. It is edible even when hard, and its season is from November to January. ST. PETER'S FISH Also called tilapia, and mousht in Arabic. Originally from the Sea of Galilee, now farmed, it is mild and sweet fleshed. SUMAC Dried and ground red berry that imparts a strong salty citrys flavor to salads and cooked foods. TAHINI Sesame-seed paste. The condiment of choice in Israel and used as a dip, spread and sauce for falafel, fish, poultry and meats. TURKISH SALAD Puree of red pepper, tomato and spices. ZA'ATAR Blend of dried hyssop, sumac and sesame seeds. ZHUG Spicy Yemenite condiment of tiny hot peppers, fresh coriander and garlic. Can be green or red. Also spelled zhoug. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JEWISH PENICILLIN DARE also has 1968, from an interview. Just thought I'd re-check. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) News Journal Tuesday, February 13, 1968 Mansfield, Ohio ...lists on its menu PENICILLIN Home Made CHICKEN SOUP.. Pg. 19, col. 3 ("On Broadway" by Jack O'Brian): Brooklyn's "Home Caterers Wonder Store" (170 E. 16th St.) lists on its menu "Jewish Penicillin--Home Made Chicken Soup." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- PLT SANDWICH Next to Alibaba is a place called Neptune. It serves a PLT Sandwich--lobster, tomato, smoked pancetta, basil, aioli, arugula. A "PLT" with lobster? Usually just the BLT is changed to PLT with pastrami or prosciutto of pancetta. I've not seen lobster in this mix. A few "PLT" cites follow. (GOOGLE) Melbee's... fresh herb vinaigrette Small $5 Large $8 Sandwiches: *PLT, grilled pancetta ... horseradish cream, Semolina Hogie $12 Seafood Salad, shrimp, lobster, scallops $12 ... www.kcrestaurantguide.com/melbees.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages PLT, grilled pancetta, field greens, summer tomatoes, Asiago roll, &8 Ya Gotta Have It! ~ BLT Recipes... PLT. ... slices from a large tomato, halved; 2 large leaves of butter lettuce ** Inspired by the Maine lobster roll, the hardest part of this sandwich is finding ... www.biglove.lvhr.com/recipes/singles/blt.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages (pancetta...tomato...lettuce--ed.) Wine Spectator Online | Daily Wine News | Punch & Judy: New ...... Sandwiches include a PLT (prosciutto, lettuce and tomato) and a savory lobster club on a toasted brioche with crispy pancetta and "caviar mayonnaise.". ... www.winespectatorschool.com/ Wine/Daily/News_Print/0,2463,1673,00.html - 12k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 6 00:34:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:34:49 EDT Subject: Shaken, not stirred (1965); Stir, don't shake (1963) Message-ID: SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED--44,400 Google hits, 25,400 Google Groups hits STIRRED, NOT SHAKEN--3,600 Google hits, 1,760 Google Groups hits This is one of the most famous drinking lines in history, certainly in cinematic history. I couldn't find much on it before a Bond article of 1965. But see the 1963 citation below. Fleming orders his martini stirred, not shaken! I'm both shaken and stirred by this. (PEOQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("shaken, not stirred") 1. Agent 007 Embarks On a Final Escapade By Robert G. Kaiser Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 2, 1965. p. A10 (1 page) : When this last book is read, he will never be back again. It will take a lot of very dry vodka martinis--shaken, not stirred--to fill the void. 2. Not Shaken, Not Stirred, but Programed; Wide Variety of Ideas Covered By Patents Issued During Week By STACY V. JONESSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 26, 1968. p. 51 (2 pages) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("stirred, not shaken") 1. For Gourmets and Others: Sunday Morning 'Brunch'; The Word May Not Be Elegant, but It Can Mean Good Food, at Home or in the Restaurants That Specialize in Breakfast-Luncheon Restaurant Specialties The Stirrup Cup New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1939. p. 55 (1 page) : A more highfaultin' suggestion is a drink called velvet," a concoction of port and champagne. He also suggests what he calls a gold medal, made of two-thirds French vermouth, a sixth kirschwasser, a sixth raspberry liquor or grenadine. This is to be stirred, not shaken. 2. A James Bond Movie Quiz BY FRANK DiLLON. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 18, 1983. p. WK21 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("shake, don't stir") OPENINGS The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1987. p. 152 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("stir, don't shake") 1. Display Ad 11 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 24, 1945. p. 4 (1 page) 2. Display Ad 10 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 4, 1945. p. 14 (1 page) 3. Display Ad 27 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1945. p. 6 (1 page) 4. Display Ad 18 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 20, 1945. p. 4 (1 page) 5. Display Ad 11 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 7, 1945. p. 13 (1 page) 6. Display Ad 46 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 8, 1945. p. 15 (1 page) 7. Display Ad 19 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 16, 1946. p. 4 (1 page) 8. Display Ad 10 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 21, 1946. p. 12 (1 page) 9. ANOTHER WORLD; The Bond Between James and Ian HERB CAEN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 31, 1963. p. A6 (1 page) : "What will u=you drink?" "Martinis," we said. Swiftly assessing the cryptic word, he summoned a waiter with a commanding flick of his head. "Two martinis, very dry," he ordered. "Four and a quarter parts of Coates' Plymouth gin to five eighths of a part of Boissiere, the white vermouth. On the rocks. Noi lemon peel, no onion, no live. Stir, don't shake." (...) If the foregoing sounds like a pallid attempt to imitate the style of Ian Gleming, creator of the James Bond stories--well, it is. The gentleman described above, with whom we were taking lunch in the admirrable surroundings of Scott's, WAS Fleming, the successor to the Hammetts. the Greenes and the Amblers as the world's best-selling author of international spy fiction. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) No hits for "shake, don't stir." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARRCHIVE.COM) Hammond Times Sunday, October 20, 1957 Hammond, Indiana ...to five parts varnish. Then stir DON'T SHAKE it for 10 or 15 minutes. Let.....needed to operate each of them. And DON'T get the idea that just because an.. Mansfield News Wednesday, January 24, 1934 Mansfield, Ohio ...gin, one part Italian vermouth. STIR, DON'T SHAKE. Put olive in each glass and.....j lipves the art will bo revived. You DON'T ?oak up all the liquor j siglit.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- OT: NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ON FEUCHTWANGER & HOT DOGS Lenore Skenazy is a NEW YORK DAILY NEWS columnist. She's a third rate Maureen Dowd (if that's possible). Many years ago, I won the first "Only in New York Contest" by Lenore Skenazy and the DAILY NEWS. When, a little later, I told them that I'd solved "the Big Apple," the DAILY NEWS wouldn't run it and never has. It doesn't get much worse than this. From the SUNDAY NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 4 July 2004, pg. 37, col. 4, "Skenazy's World" by Lenore Skenazy: _It's a fine day_ _to say thanks,_ _Feuchtwanger_ (...) The point is, that very same year in that very same city at yet another fair (thank you, St. Louis, and I'm sorry your date with history ends then and there), Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger invented the Feuchwanger-wich! This is the same sandwich that Coney Island also claims to have invented back in 1867, but the 1904 story goes thusly: Feuchtwanger was selling slippery, naked sausages and lending his customers whote gloves so they wouldn't get their fingers greasy. Unfortunately, those customers kept "forgetting" to return the gloves, to the point where Feuchtwanger begged his brother, a baker, to invent something else to stick the sausage in. "I'll show them where they can stick it!" crted the brother--his exact words are lost to history--handing Anton a soft, fluffy bun. Thus was the hot dog-without-gloves born, perhaps again. And, in a sense, so were we. (I've got to watch the SECRET LIFE OF HAMBURGERS on the Food Network at ten o'clock tonight, and then I'll kill myself--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Jul 6 00:52:05 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:52:05 -0400 Subject: Shaken, not stirred (1965); Stir, don't shake (1963) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > OT: NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ON FEUCHTWANGER & HOT DOGS > > Lenore Skenazy is a NEW YORK DAILY NEWS columnist. She's a third rate > Maureen Dowd (if that's possible). Many years ago, I won the first "Only in New > York Contest" by Lenore Skenazy and the DAILY NEWS. When, a little later, I > told them that I'd solved "the Big Apple," the DAILY NEWS wouldn't run it and > never has. > It doesn't get much worse than this. Did he also write that column----"Ask Skenazy" ??? :) Sam Clements From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 6 02:16:34 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:16:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That confirms what I thought was my intuition, but being so long out of Philly and also lactose intolerant since leaving I didn't trust my judgement. Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > from a by now virtual native speaker... > > --- begin forwarded text > > > To: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia > Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:36:32 EDT > From: "Ellen F. Prince" > > > >Do you know from jimmies in Philly? > > > >L > > That's what they're called here. That's the ONLY > thing they're > called here. And that was what they were called when > we moved > here in 1967. Some people seem to know the term > sprinkles but > the ones I've discussed this with think sprinkles is > only > for the multi-colored, non-chocolate kind. > > I never knew they were also called jimmies in > Boston. Live > and learn. > > Ellen > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 6 02:23:09 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:23:09 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? Message-ID: How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did too. Ed __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Jul 6 02:36:38 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:36:38 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? Message-ID: When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally redone. That's OK. The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first thing that one encounters on that page. When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where I can input my search terms and parameters. BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me to actually hit "search." Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for terms in the 1999-date archive? Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 6 03:07:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:07:11 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <20040706022309.47313.qmail@web20425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Ed Keer wrote: > How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in > NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North > Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always > called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did > too. I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" until I went to college in Boston. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 6 04:10:21 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:10:21 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Jimmies in NY? > > > On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Ed Keer wrote: > > > How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in > > NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North > > Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always > > called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did > > too. > > I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" > until I went to college in Boston. Growing up on the Jersey Shore (born 1963), "jimmies" was a familiar term although "sprinkles" was far more common. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 6 04:26:01 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:26:01 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: >Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for >terms in the 1999-date archive? I don't see a button, but hitting "enter" after entering the search term appears to do the job. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 6 04:57:45 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:57:45 EDT Subject: Banana Republic(ans); Always room for dessert (1965) Message-ID: BANANA REPUBLIC(ANS) BANANA REPUBLICANS--29,500 Google hits, 1,640 Google Groups hits We discussed "banana republic" in November 2002. Michael Quinion found a citation from O. Henry's CABBAGES AND KINGS (1904). The CHICAGO TRIBUNE has additional early citations for "banana republic"--from O. Henry. The Republicans are coming to New York soon, and I've been hearing "banana Republican." )PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("banana republic") 1. The Flag Paramount O Henry. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 6, 1906. p. E4 (1 page): In the constitution of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section providing for the maintenance of a navy. 2. Money Maze.; MR. FLYNN'S STORY. O Henry. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 13, 1906. p. E4 (1 page) 3. JOHN MOISANT Baker's Boy, Soldier of Fortune Air Man.; How the Youth Who Kneaded Dough in Chicago Not Many Years Ago Led Central American Revolts, Captured Cities and Finally Became an Aeronaut of International Repute Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 4, 1910. p. G1 (1 page) 4. Other 9 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 20, 1911. p. 14 (1 page) 5. O. HENRY'S EXIT LIKE HIS STORIES; While He Lay Coffined in the the Church a Wedding Party Fluttered Up -- and Fled New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1912. p. BR3 (1 page) 6. 2,250 MARINES WILL MARCH IN LOOP TOMORROW; final Plans for City's Formal Welcome Are Announced. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 22, 1919. p. 13 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("banana Republicans") On Language The Word From Eejay; Banana Republican Gosh Darn By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 15, 1979. p. SM3 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Salisbury Times Thursday, February 13, 1958 Salisbury, Maryland ...United Fruit, BANANA republics, or the BANANA REPUBLICANS of yesteryear, figs.....century about settling elections in BANANA republics with Catling guns. You.. Salisbury Times Thursday, February 13, 1958 Salisbury, Maryland ...You could say I was raised as a; BANANA REPUBLICAN, 'meaning that' if.....With no malice for United Fruit, BANANA republics, or the BANANA.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THERE'S ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT--497 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits A popular food saying. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Post Crescent Wednesday, December 01, 1965 Appleton, Wisconsin ...Pineapple Peach Apricot There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT SPARKLE GELATIN 6-Oz.....C 14 DO WE TAKE YOUR PATRONAGE FOR GRANTED? NO, INDEED' Start Your.. Valley News Thursday, November 10, 1977 Van Nuys, California ...Minty pine fluff There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT when it's this cool.....into gelatin mixture. Pour inio 6 to 8 DESSERT dishes and chill until firm.. Times Recorder Friday, May 13, 1977 Zanesville, Ohio ...Minty-Pine Walnut Fluff There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT when it's this cool.....chairman. Jeffrey K. Risner. organist FOR St. Jaaies" FOR seven years, will.. News Friday, August 30, 1996 Frederick, Maryland ...by number. Of course, there's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT. Christine had a piece.....it comes to martial-arts paydirt Chan ALWAYS delivers. Happily, he avoids the.. Frederick Post Friday, August 30, 1996 Frederick, Maryland ...by number. Of course, there's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT. Christine had a piece.....it comes to martial-arts paydirt Chan ALWAYS delivers. Happily, he avoids the.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- OT: FOOD NETWORK & PEANUT BUTTER, HAMBURGERS The Food Network had a quiz on who invented "peanut butter." Four choices were given. The "correct" answer was "a doctor." In Andrew F. Smith's PEANUTS (2002), pg. 31: "Others claim that an unknown medical professional in Saint Louis invented peanut butter in 1890." This is the information age. Why does every piece of crap like this exist and flourish? For THE SECRET LIFE OF HAMBURGERS, the host visited Louis Lunch and Hooters. Some secrets. The viewers were uncritically presented with four hamburger origination theories. Then, after that brief minute, viewers saw ten minutes of the host delivering hamburgers on roller skates. From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Tue Jul 6 13:09:39 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:09:39 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Jimmies in NY? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 6 13:22:32 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:22:32 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: Hmmm. I double-checked everything in Internet Explorer 6 and nine other browsers and everything was fine. But I see that IE 6 is no longer respecting the right column, while it looks fine everywhere else. A couple of last minute changes must have done it. The Microsoft exception, as always. I'll add the search button back in, if that throws you, and try to make that right column work properly in IE 6. Also, in the future, you can contact me directly about problems with the web site, rather than posting your complaints to the list. I don't mind the airing of the dirty laundry here, but it might be a day or more before I see anything posted to the list, so you won't receive a timely response. Thanks, Grant On Jul 5, 2004, at 22:36, Sam Clements wrote: > When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally > redone. That's OK. > > The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 > archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first > thing that one encounters on that page. > > When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where > I can input my search terms and parameters. > > BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me > to actually hit "search." > > Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for > terms in the 1999-date archive? > > Sam Clements > > From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 6 13:41:20 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:41:20 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: From: Barbara Need : Mark Mandel wrote: :: Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in :: Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to :: the option shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, :: the young woman behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you :: want that with jimmies?" I said, "Yes, please.... Did you say :: 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that word outside the Boston :: area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down :: here, too." : Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, : 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have : noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. FTR, i first heard the term "jimmies" referring to what i grew up with (in Southern Maryland) as "sprinkles" in Philadelphia. This would have been in the early 90s. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 6 13:50:25 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:50:25 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: Should be all better now. G On Jul 5, 2004, at 22:36, Sam Clements wrote: > When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally > redone. That's OK. > > The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 > archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first > thing that one encounters on that page. > > When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where > I can input my search terms and parameters. > > BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me > to actually hit "search." > > Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for > terms in the 1999-date archive? > > Sam Clements > > From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Jul 6 14:25:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:25:37 -0400 Subject: Offer you can't refuse In-Reply-To: <79.2d91090c.2e1932c2@aol.com> Message-ID: How important is meaning in tracking the use of a phrase? I would think the phrase "offer you can't refuse" from a used-car dealer meant "you can't pass it up because it's just so good a deal," while Corleon's use of the phrase had an implicit threat of violence and death if you said no. So does the fact that one is innocuous and one menacing make for a big enough difference? Kathleen E. Miller The New York Times From chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jul 6 14:54:44 2004 From: chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:54:44 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <20040706042137.A52283823F6@rapid.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: More data to corroborate known patterns... An acquaintance of mine who grew up in the Trenton area only uses "jimmies." My husband, who grew up in northern/central NJ uses "sprinkles" but is totally familiar with "jimmies." I, who, grew up in Yonkers, never heard "jimmies" before it was brought up on this list. Larissa You said.... ++Growing up on the Jersey Shore (born 1963), "jimmies" was a familiar term ++although "sprinkles" was far more common. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 6 15:55:30 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:55:30 -0400 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <157.38e0dc74.2e15fabf@aol.com> Message-ID: It aroused no such suspicions in me! I belong to AOL, and my screen name bears no resemblance to my real name, for a good reason: you tend to get a lot of unwanted instant messages and e- mail if you give away too much information about yourself (like your gender, for instance). As for this list, it seems to me that knowing a person's name is not at all necessary to participating. For me, a person's right to privacy trumps any courtesy issues unless you know everybody outside the list (which I assume is not the case). Joanne On 1 Jul 2004, at 19:39, LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: > I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about > whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was careless of me not > to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so > aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS listserv for > years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie > Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my intention, you may be > sure. > > Lindsie Jordan Tucker Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jul 6 17:40:10 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:40:10 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$2rqf2m@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I moved from Texas to NY, where I've lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn for the last three years. I had never heard of jimmies before the word appeared on this list. Does anybody have a good idea of why they're called jimmies? Another question, why do thieves jimmy a lock? Carolina ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 7 00:36:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:36:09 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. There are undocumented claims about "the plural of anecdote is data" form is from the early? 1990's. This is probably a question for Barry or Doug. I searched the NEW, WONDERFUL archives(Thanks, Grant), but found nothing. Sam Clements From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 7 01:01:33 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:01:33 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan used it in a diary of the final negotiations for the Tax Reform Act of 1986 that he kept for Newsweek; I didn't see Newsweek, but this is from the 8/24/86 Chicago Sun-Times. From the diary entry for July 25: <> IIRC, Senator Moynihan used this phrase in other contexts and referred to it as being from the social sciences. John Baker From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 7 01:01:58 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:01:58 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Of course, this is a question for Fred Shapiro. My bad. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 8:36 PM Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. There are undocumented claims about "the plural of anecdote is data" form is from the early? 1990's. This is probably a question for Barry or Doug. I searched the NEW, WONDERFUL archives(Thanks, Grant), but found nothing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 01:41:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:41:03 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) Message-ID: (JSTOR) The Contributions of President Richard F. Fenno, Jr. (in Forum) Nelson W. Polsby PS, Vol. 17, No. 4. (Autumn, 1984), pp. 778-781. Pg. 779: Raymond Wolfinger's brilliant aphorism "the plural of anecdote is data" never inspired a better or more skilled researcher. Reflections on Academia (in Forum) A Wuffle PS, Vol. 19, No. 1. (Winter, 1986), pp. 57-61. Pg. 57: The plural of anecdote is data. Ray Wolfinger From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 7 02:16:42 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:16:42 -0500 Subject: Why "jimmy a lock?"--(was: Jimmies in NY?) Message-ID: At 1:40 PM -0400 7/6/04, Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: >Another question, why do thieves jimmy a lock? The instrument (a short crowbar) is a jimmy, so the question becomes: why is the instrument so called? The answer is apparently unknown, but note 19th century cant "neddy" (a club; apparently from Cockney rhyming slang "Uncle Ned" = head). Similarly, note 19th century British cant "jemmy" (crowbar; Americanized to "jimmy"), which I believe may derive from Cockney rhyming slang "Jem" from "Jem Mace" (= face). In the 1860's memoirs of a London thief is an incident in which the author and his pal Joe try to burglarize a home at night while the family is asleep. But the husband--a big fellow--wakes up and comes out of his room towards the two burglars. Joe wastes no time and clobbers the fellow in the face with his "jemmy," dropping him instantly and thereby permitting the two to escape. This sort of criminal context might have provided the start for "jemmy", although, of course, its usual purpose is to pry things open. Gerald Cohen From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 7 03:21:27 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:21:27 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) In-Reply-To: <200407070141.i671fDI5010888@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Nelson W. Polsby PS, Vol. 17, No. 4. (Autumn, 1984), pp. 778-781. Pg. > 779: Raymond Wolfinger's brilliant aphorism "the plural of anecdote is > data" never inspired a better or more skilled researcher. I e-mailed Wolfinger last year and got the following response from him: "I said 'The plural of anecdote is data' some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student's dismissal of a simple factual statement--by another student or me--as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder. Since then I have missed few opportunities to quote myself. The only appearance in print that I can remember is Nelson Polsby's accurate quotation and attribution in an article in PS: Political Science and Politics in 1993; I believe it was in the first issue of the year." I also e-mailed Polsby, who didn't know of any early printed occurrences. What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite -- "Data is not the plural of anecdote" -- in some people's minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 11:25:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:25:26 EDT Subject: "White knuckle" flight (1965); "White knuckler" (1971) Message-ID: WHITE KNUCKLES--12,900 Google hits, 4,090 Google Groups hits WHITE KNUCKLER--885 Google hits, 914 Google Groups hits "I won't deny Plotz his boondoggle on Slate's dime--Tennessee is a fascinating state--but maybe in the future he'll do his homework first and concentrate on states, like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, which, barring a blowout by either candidate, look like legitimate whire-knucklers for each campaign." ---NEW YORK PRESS, July 7-12, 2004, pg. 16, col. 4. "White knuckler?" California's Magic Mountain ride gets in dictionaries? This was added to OED in 1997, with first citations of 1973 and 1976. (GOOGLE) The Word Spy - white knuckler Search Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. white knuckler noun. A short-haul commuter airline flight. Example Citation: "Short ... www.wordspy.com/words/whiteknuckler.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages (OED) APPENDED FROM ADDITIONS 1997 white, a. Add: [12.] [d.] white-knuckle colloq., (orig. N.Amer.), (esp. of a fairground ride) causing or supposed to cause fear or suspense of such intensity that one's knuckles whiten in an anxious grip; also (of a person), experiencing or showing such fear. 1976 Business Week 26 July 119/2 A less extreme, cheaper, and yet often effective course for the ‘*white knuckle’ passenger is to join a fairly new type of therapy group devoted to taking the fear out of flying. 1982 N.Y. Times 11 Apr. V. 5/3 Stadler salvaged a stroke with a two-foot birdie putt at the fifth, but it was whiteknuckle time again at the seventh, where he saved par from a bunker. 1985 Times 7 June 27/6 Wonderworld would eschew the ‘white knuckle’ rides but there would be thrills in another mode. 1986 Woman's Day (Melbourne) 25 Aug. 35/2 All you white-knuckle flyers will understand why Bob..put his private jet on the market..when the plane lost an engine and had to make an emergency landing. 1992 Caravan Mag. Sept. 36/3 It has the ususal array of rides, offering everything from the white-knuckle thrills of the Rattlesnake roller-coaster and the Tempest, in which passengers are suspended upside down. So white-knuckled a., having white knuckles; (transf. and fig.) tense from barely contained emotion, esp. fear or suspense. 1973 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Sept. 8/6 He meets local editors, goes on talk shows, flies *white-knuckled in bumpy bush planes. 1989 Daily Tel. 16 Sept. 8/2 [They] open the gate for a white-knuckled sailor in a fat rented boat, who shrieks orders at his wife as she nips ashore with the bow rope. 1993 Saturday Night (Toronto) June 53/2 It felt like an airplane about to crash. The 180 students..focused on the teacher with white-knuckled concentration. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckler") 1. 50 Cities Within a City By Curtis J. Sitomer Christian Balance Monitor News Service. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 27, 1972. p. E2 (1 page): ...Magic Mountain's "white knuckler" playland thrills in Valencia,... 2. Marquette Goes From Mid-Court to Final New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 27, 1977. p. 169 (1 page) 3. Fear of Flying Lists Big Gains; Air Travel Insurance Increases During Strike By Jura Koncius Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1981. p. A9 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckled") 1. WIFE BEATERS and their LOVE LETTERS; Rough and Brutal? No! Warm and Tender Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 2, 1916. p. 4H (1 page) 2. TAWDRY STREET Harold Mac Grath. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 12, 1916. p. C2 (1 page) 3. ELECTROCUTE RUTH AND GRAY; WOMAN GOES TO CHAIR FIRST, PRAYER ON LIPS Judd Calm as He Follows Her. Ruth Snyder and Henry Judd Gray Die in Electric Chair--Democrats Pick Houston as Convention City SID SUTHERLAND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) 4. RUTH SNYDER DIES FIRST; Then Judd Gray Goes to Chair Electrocution for Murder of Woman's Husband Ends Day of Turmoil Blond Pallid and Haggard as She Whimpers at Sight of Lethal Chamber SIDNEY SUTHERLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) 5. DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA; But Pecora Warns on Introducing of New Names--Rival Counsel in Bitter Clash Rule for Trial Is Set Up Defense Lawyers Surprised DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA Points to Early Statement Reads Part of Editorial Denies Reveallng Facts Court Cites renal Law New York Times (1857. Aug 5, 1938. p. 1 (2 pages) 6. NOVELS; ADAM RESURRECTED. By Yoram Kaniuk. Translated by Seymour S imches. Atheneum. 370 pp. $8.95 Memorial candles Of the railss ANCIENT HISTORY: A Paraphase. By Joseph McElroy. Knopf. 307 pp. $6.95 Domestic scenen THE BIRDS ON THE TREES. By Nina Bawden. Harper & Row. 194 pp. $5.95 The private truth THE BOOK OF DANIEL By E. L. Doctorow. Random House. 303 pp $6.95 Reviewed by Steven Kroll. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1971. p. 237 (1 page) : ...Bob's white-knuckled fist..." 7. Display Ad 40 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 12, 1990. p. C14 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckler") Lima News Sunday, November 28, 1971 Lima, Ohio ...A bit of a snap, smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much later.....out of hand and massacre a number of WHITE settlers. Their actions also.. Chronicle Telegram Thursday, June 07, 1973 Elyria, Ohio ...Illinois engineer: and the renowned "WHITE KNUCKLER.V the roller-coaster. "v.. Valley News Thursday, April 15, 1971 Van Nuys, California ...the amusement park balances "WHITE KNUCKLER" thrill rideswith live.. Pg. 11B: Now nearing completion, the amusement park balances "white knuckler" thrill rides with live entertainment and gentle rides for the children, Lemmon said. (Valencia Magic Mountain--ed.) Newark Advocate Saturday, January 11, 1969 Newark, Ohio ...editor of The Steve Pyle, Advocate 'WHITE KNUCKLER' Films Flight Movie.....airport pi-friM; IT POETICALLY me a WHITE-knuckle passenger manager's.. Post Crescent Sunday, November 28, 1971 Zanesville, Ohio ...A bit of a snap, actually. smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much later.....wrons 1 ex-plained. "I'm an advanced WHITE knuckle flyer." said the boss with.. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckle") Frederick Post Tuesday, April 01, 1930 Frederick, Maryland ...the flight. Franklin Roosevelt, a WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who was the first.....all identically painted in blue and WHITE with the presidential seal.. (CAUTION! THIS IS REALLY FROM 1980!--ed.) Valley Independent Thursday, October 07, 1965 Monessen, Pennsylvania ...with the offer of a paper bag on the WHITE KNUCKLE flight? Absolutely not.. Pg. 6, col. 1: Could the airlines lure businessmen up into the clouds in a rainstorm with the offer of a paper bag on the whire knuckle flights? Absolutely not. Reno Evening Gazette Wednesday, May 03, 1967 Reno, Nevada ...into the blue. Your first flight, or WHITE-KNUCKLE trip as it _ known in the.....Kathy Grant Crosby is devoted to tiny WHITE orchids. Rita Hayworth would love.. Lima News Saturday, January 11, 1969 Lima, Ohio ...But that was enough to make me a WHITE-KNUCKLE passenger after that.. Gettysburg Times Monday, July 14, 1969 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...main clinic for the nurses to look at. WHITE KNUCKLE FLIGHT He never told me.....have a baby, and darn soon. It was a WHITE KNUCKLE flight for me after he.. Post Crescent Sunday, September 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin ...RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH 2 (AP) For the WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who must go down to.. From dinkin at SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 7 04:13:21 2004 From: dinkin at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Aaron Dinkin) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:13:21 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." In-Reply-To: <200407070400.i6740Zfm024873@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it = > over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? > > The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. A Google search produces Usenet citations of the "not" form as early as 1993. A post in alt.activism.death-penalty is the earliest I found: http://tinyurl.com/279sh -Aaron J. Dinkin From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 7 14:20:33 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:20:33 -0400 Subject: "White knuckle" flight (1965); "White knuckler" (1971) In-Reply-To: <3d.40c18e74.2e1d37a6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:25 AM -0400 7/7/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WHITE KNUCKLES--12,900 Google hits, 4,090 Google Groups hits >WHITE KNUCKLER--885 Google hits, 914 Google Groups hits Curious that none of these involve sports contexts (esp. baseball), where "white-knuckler" has long been used for close, suspenseful games. Larry > >"I won't deny Plotz his boondoggle on Slate's dime--Tennessee is a >fascinating state--but maybe in the future he'll do his homework >first and concentrate >on states, like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, which, barring a blowout by >either candidate, look like legitimate whire-knucklers for each campaign." >---NEW YORK PRESS, July 7-12, 2004, pg. 16, col. 4. > > > "White knuckler?" California's Magic Mountain ride gets in dictionaries? > This was added to OED in 1997, with first citations of 1973 and 1976. > > >(GOOGLE) >The Word Spy - white knuckler >Search Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. white knuckler noun. >A short-haul commuter airline flight. Example Citation: "Short ... >www.wordspy.com/words/whiteknuckler.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages > >(OED) >APPENDED FROM ADDITIONS 1997 >white, a. > Add: [12.] [d.] white-knuckle colloq., (orig. N.Amer.), (esp. of a >fairground ride) causing or supposed to cause fear or suspense of >such intensity >that one's knuckles whiten in an anxious grip; also (of a person), >experiencing >or showing such fear. > > 1976 Business Week 26 July 119/2 A less extreme, cheaper, and yet often >effective course for the '*white knuckle' passenger is to join a >fairly new type >of therapy group devoted to taking the fear out of flying. 1982 N.Y. Times 11 >Apr. V. 5/3 Stadler salvaged a stroke with a two-foot birdie putt at the >fifth, but it was whiteknuckle time again at the seventh, where he >saved par from >a bunker. 1985 Times 7 June 27/6 Wonderworld would eschew the 'white knuckle' >rides but there would be thrills in another mode. 1986 Woman's Day >(Melbourne) 25 Aug. 35/2 All you white-knuckle flyers will >understand why Bob..put his >private jet on the market..when the plane lost an engine and had to make an >emergency landing. 1992 Caravan Mag. Sept. 36/3 It has the ususal >array of rides, >offering everything from the white-knuckle thrills of the Rattlesnake >roller-coaster and the Tempest, in which passengers are suspended upside down. > > So white-knuckled a., having white knuckles; (transf. and fig.) tense >from barely contained emotion, esp. fear or suspense. > > 1973 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Sept. 8/6 He meets local editors, goes on >talk shows, flies *white-knuckled in bumpy bush planes. 1989 Daily >Tel. 16 Sept. >8/2 [They] open the gate for a white-knuckled sailor in a fat rented boat, who >shrieks orders at his wife as she nips ashore with the bow rope. 1993 >Saturday Night (Toronto) June 53/2 It felt like an airplane about to >crash. The 180 >students..focused on the teacher with white-knuckled concentration. > > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckler") > 1. 50 Cities Within a City >By Curtis J. Sitomer Christian Balance Monitor News Service. The Washington >Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 27, 1972. p. >E2 (1 page): > ...Magic Mountain's "white knuckler" playland thrills in Valencia,... > > 2. Marquette Goes From Mid-Court to Final >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 27, 1977. p. 169 (1 >page) > > 3. Fear of Flying Lists Big Gains; Air Travel Insurance Increases During >Strike >By Jura Koncius Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post >(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1981. p. A9 (1 page) > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckled") > 1. WIFE BEATERS and their LOVE LETTERS; Rough and Brutal? No! Warm and >Tender >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 2, 1916. p. 4H (1 page) > > > 2. TAWDRY STREET >Harold Mac Grath. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 12, >1916. p. C2 (1 page) > > 3. ELECTROCUTE RUTH AND GRAY; WOMAN GOES TO CHAIR FIRST, PRAYER ON LIPS >Judd Calm as He Follows Her. Ruth Snyder and Henry Judd Gray Die in Electric >Chair--Democrats Pick Houston as Convention City >SID SUTHERLAND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, >1928. p. 1 (3 pages) > > 4. RUTH SNYDER DIES FIRST; Then Judd Gray Goes to Chair Electrocution for >Murder of Woman's Husband Ends Day of Turmoil Blond Pallid and Haggard as She >Whimpers at Sight of Lethal Chamber >SIDNEY SUTHERLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, >Calif.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) > > 5. DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA; But Pecora Warns on Introducing of >New Names--Rival Counsel in Bitter Clash Rule for Trial Is Set Up Defense >Lawyers Surprised DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA Points to Early >Statement Reads >Part of Editorial Denies Reveallng Facts Court Cites renal Law >New York Times (1857. Aug 5, 1938. p. 1 (2 pages) > > 6. NOVELS; ADAM RESURRECTED. By Yoram Kaniuk. Translated by Seymour S >imches. Atheneum. 370 pp. $8.95 Memorial candles Of the railss >ANCIENT HISTORY: A >Paraphase. By Joseph McElroy. Knopf. 307 pp. $6.95 Domestic scenen >THE BIRDS ON >THE TREES. By Nina Bawden. Harper & Row. 194 pp. $5.95 The private truth THE >BOOK OF DANIEL By E. L. Doctorow. Random House. 303 pp $6.95 >Reviewed by Steven Kroll. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). >Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1971. p. 237 (1 page) : > ...Bob's white-knuckled fist..." > > 7. Display Ad 40 -- No Title >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 12, 1990. p. C14 (1 >page) > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckler") > Lima News Sunday, November 28, 1971 Lima, Ohio >...A bit of a snap, smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much >later.....out of hand and massacre a number of WHITE settlers. Their >actions also.. > > Chronicle Telegram Thursday, June 07, 1973 Elyria, Ohio >...Illinois engineer: and the renowned "WHITE KNUCKLER.V the roller-coaster. >"v.. > >Valley News Thursday, April 15, 1971 Van Nuys, California >...the amusement park balances "WHITE KNUCKLER" thrill rideswith live.. >Pg. 11B: Now nearing completion, the amusement park balances "white >knuckler" thrill rides with live entertainment and gentle rides for >the children, >Lemmon said. >(Valencia Magic Mountain--ed.) > >Newark Advocate Saturday, January 11, 1969 Newark, Ohio >...editor of The Steve Pyle, Advocate 'WHITE KNUCKLER' Films Flight >Movie.....airport pi-friM; IT POETICALLY me a WHITE-knuckle >passenger manager's.. > >Post Crescent Sunday, November 28, 1971 Zanesville, Ohio >...A bit of a snap, actually. smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much >later.....wrons 1 ex-plained. "I'm an advanced WHITE knuckle flyer." said the >boss with.. > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckle") > Frederick Post Tuesday, April 01, 1930 Frederick, Maryland >...the flight. Franklin Roosevelt, a WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who was the >first.....all identically painted in blue and WHITE with the >presidential seal.. >(CAUTION! THIS IS REALLY FROM 1980!--ed.) > >Valley Independent Thursday, October 07, 1965 Monessen, Pennsylvania >...with the offer of a paper bag on the WHITE KNUCKLE flight? Absolutely >not.. >Pg. 6, col. 1: Could the airlines lure businessmen up into the clouds in a >rainstorm with the offer of a paper bag on the whire knuckle flights? >Absolutely not. > >Reno Evening Gazette Wednesday, May 03, 1967 Reno, Nevada >...into the blue. Your first flight, or WHITE-KNUCKLE trip as it _ known in >the.....Kathy Grant Crosby is devoted to tiny WHITE orchids. Rita Hayworth >would love.. > > Lima News Saturday, January 11, 1969 Lima, Ohio >...But that was enough to make me a WHITE-KNUCKLE passenger after that.. > > Gettysburg Times Monday, July 14, 1969 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania >...main clinic for the nurses to look at. WHITE KNUCKLE FLIGHT He never told >me.....have a baby, and darn soon. It was a WHITE KNUCKLE flight for me after >he.. > Post Crescent Sunday, September 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin >...RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH 2 (AP) For the WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who must go down >to.. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 7 05:21:20 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:21:20 -0400 Subject: Gurgitator (2002) In-Reply-To: <200407011710.1bGbD36JK3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:09 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Gurgitator (2002) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > GURGITATOR--108 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits > > An article in the Thursday Now section of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS > is: "Hot Dog! Coney contest is first bite in the stuff-your-face > season." > Pg. 40, col. 2: "In 1997, he (George Shea--ed.) co-founded the > International Federation of Competitive Eating with an eye toward > becoming the official governing body for 'gurgitators' worldwide." > It looks like Shea coined or popularized the word in this context. > (There are earlier computer hits.) If this thing gets big enough, > maybe they'll hold events like this in a Shea Stadium? > OT, "GURGITATOR" COMPETITIONS I WANT TO SEE: Eric "Badlands" Booker > vs. the Olsen Twins. > > > (GOOGLE) > International Federation of Competitive Eating - TEAM IFOCE ... > ... TEAM IFOCE OFFICIAL STORE : The Gurgitator Quantity: GURGITATOR - > 2002 Weight: 1.0 lbs List Price: $16.95 Get the latest news ... > www.ifoce.bigstep.com/item.html?PRID=1146773 - 11k - Cached - Similar > pages > > Recordnet.com > ... champion will be crowned. The most famous gurgitator will be Ed > "Cookie" > Jarvis, who will fly in from Long Island, NY. Jarvis is world ... > www.recordnet.com/daily/specials/ asparagus2004/articles/8asp.php - > 58k - Cached - Similar pages > > CNN.com - Transcripts > ... And check this out, Fredricka. Actually a magazine called the > "Gurgitator." > An international federation of competitive eating magazine. ... > www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/04/lt.25.html - 29k - Cached - Similar > pages > > 1. Definitions > ... 1. Definitions 1. Gurgitation 2. Gurgitator 3. Warden/Gamekeeper > 4. Gurgitation > Quotient 5. Victor 6. Pecking Order (gate number?) 7. Pecking Number > 8. etc 2 ... > gorge.internev.com/rules.htm - 17k - Supplemental Result - Cached - > Similar pages > > Adventure > ... I kept my eyes peeled for "Hungry" Charles Hardy, the two-time > American > hotdog eating champion and marquee gurgitator at the Snackdown. ... > www.thesquaretable.com/fall02/ifoce.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages > > Bakersfield's Underground Newspaper | The Blackboard > ... normal activity. For those opposed to any sort of physical > activity, > new “Gurgitator” over-eating sports will emerge. The “Food ... > blackboard3.home.att.net/may04/articles6.html - 32k - Cached - Similar > pages > > CNS: February 16, 2004: Big bellies are out for competitive eaters > ... By Joelle Farrell. PHOTO: Sarah Burge Eric Booker, 33, a > competitive > eater, or "gurgitator," nibbles at a Carnegie Deli sandwich. ... > www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-02-16/444.asp - 12k - Cached > - Similar pages > > Sonya Thomas is: "THE BLACK WIDOW" > ... As I asserted before, Kobayashi is the most elite gurgitator the > world > has ever known. I feel honored just to be on the same stage as him. ... > www.sonyatheblackwidow.com/ - 13k - Jun 29, 2004 - Cached - Similar > pages > > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > Japanese oogui > ... Compared to many of his fellow "gurgitators", Kobayashi is not just > thin, he is downright skeletal, weighing in at a mere 51.3kg. ... > fj.life.in-japan - Jul 4, 2002 by Brett Robson - View Thread (7 > articles) > > Good Food, Good Treats, Good Golly, Let's Eat! A variation of this is "Good bread! Good meat! Good Lord, let's eat!" I've never seen it in print, but I first heard it in Saint Louis some time during WWII. -Wilson Gray > ... around the world, six of them women, who compete in its events and > are sometimes > featured in its quarterly newsletter called "The Gurgitator." Most > American ... > alt.bad.clams - Aug 15, 2002 by Frankenclam - View Thread (1 article) > > > (FACTIVA) > NATION > > Fox's 'Glutton Bowl' lures 'gurgitators' with $25k prize ; 'A good > eater is a good athlete,' says international body > > Jennifer Harper, THE WASHINGTON TIMES > 654 words > 18 February 2002 > The Washington Times > A09 > English > (Copyright 2002) > > It is a consuming passion: They eat for sport, chomping and chewing > while audiences howl, judges watch for style and bystanders - well, > they stand back. > > Chicken wings, matzo balls, pickled quail eggs, cannoli, hot dogs, > jalapenos, sushi, pancakes, oysters, mince pie - it's all fair game to > competitive eaters who have their own federation, regulations, world > records and yes, competitive eat meets where less is definitely not > more and the best professional gurgitator wins. > > "It's not about gluttony. It's about competitive eating. This is a > sport. We train, we compete, we have strategies and disciplines," said > George Shea, chairman of the New York-based International Federation > of Competitive Eating (IFOCE). > > "And it's global - America, Russia, Thailand, Canada, England, > Scotland, Germany," Mr. Shea said. "This is a sport of the everyman, > because every man can understand it. A good eater is a good athlete." > > America gets its first real taste of competitive eating when Fox > broadcasts "The Glutton Bowl" on Thursday, a two-hour special that > features 40 contestants competing for $25,000 "in a challenge to see > how much or how fast they can consume," according to the network. > > The qualifying round alone features mayonnaise, beef tongue and > butter, among other things. Fox plans a surprise delicacy for the > finale, which they promise is "not for the faint of heart or weak of > stomach." > > In March, the Discovery Channel will explore mega-eating phenomena in > a documentary called "Gut Busters." > > But it's not quite as crass as all that, Mr. Shea insists. An IFOCE > mandate specifies safety and age regulations, careful record- keeping > and uniform procedures for those moments when one man will consume > 21/2 pounds of mince pie in 30 seconds. > > That feat was accomplished by England's Peter Dowsewell two years ago, > and it still stands as a world's record. > > There are points for "neat eating," a newsletter called "The > Gurgitator" and official T-shirts which read "Nothing in Moderation" > and come in sizes up to XXXXL. Competitors share training methods - > like learning to stretch their stomachs by drinking a gallon of water > at one sitting. > > The IFOCE also finds sponsors for sanctioned tournaments year- round. > > Come November, the group plans a competition that will feature an > entire Thanksgiving dinner. > > A short history at the group's Web site (www.ifoce.com) maintains that > competitive eating has been around since prehistoric times, and while > American eaters dominated the early 20th century, the Japanese now set > "record after record before stunned crowds." > (...) > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jul 7 14:50:23 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:50:23 -0400 Subject: Why "jimmy a lock?"--(was: Jimmies in NY?) Message-ID: Here are two early citations for "jemmy" from NYC newspapers: 1834: [A burglar had] instruments . . . for breaking open stores and houses, and among them an instrument called a London Jemmy (a short crow bar). . . . New York Daily Advertiser, January 20, 1834, p. 2, col. 5 1843: [thieves force] the lock of the front door with a "London Jemmy," or short crowbar found in their possession. New-York Daily Tribune, October 4, 1843, p. 2, col. 5 HDAS: (under "jimmy"), 1848 (2nd 1848 quote has "London Jimmy") GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 7 16:06:53 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:06:53 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) In-Reply-To: <20040707040036.16AB422872@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Fred Shapiro writes: >>> What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite -- "Data is not the plural of anecdote" -- in some people's minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example. <<< To the best of my recollection, I learned it in the negative form and had never heard it in the positive form until discussing it with Fred in private e-mail. Both forms make sense to me, with somewhat different and non-opposite meanings -- that's the devil in trying to draw wisdom from aphorisms. The positive form means something like "Data is built up from individual data points." The negative form means something like "It's unsafe to generalize from one or a small number of unsystematically collected pieces of data." I agree with both, and I suspect that most readers of this list do likewise. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 7 07:14:31 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:14:31 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <200407052007.1bHGiG2uI3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" >until I went to college in Boston. > >Fred Shapiro I, too, grew up in NY and never heard the terms Jimmies, until visiting Mass. and then moving to California in 1966. Rima From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jul 7 19:09:00 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:09:00 -0400 Subject: "big apple: -- miscellaneous Message-ID: A couple of reference from Proquest's historical newspapers from 1928, both explicitly referring to NYC and both from the context of horseracing. They are from the Washington Post, so that the expression had gotten beyond the NYC locality. Fred Shapiro had posted instances referring to NYC from earlier in 1928 and from 1927, but any early occurence of this expression is worth noting. Thoroughbred race horses, which have been doing duty on the "Big Apple" tracks, are beginning to move homeward, according to Charles Meister, jr., who has charge of his uncle's fleet of vans working out of New York. Washington Post, August 26, 1828, p. M16 [Jockey George] Schreiner will be remembered as having been in the limelight around the "Big Apple" this summer. . . . [He had had 20 winners at NYC tracks] Washington Post, September 23, 1928, p. 18 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 20:40:52 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:40:52 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's London Times. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 8 02:04:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:04:57 -0400 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: <200407031147.1bGPxA2it3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: the respelling tactic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial > Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": > > --------- > The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state > their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified > teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely > different from niggers and thus acceptable. > ---------- > > ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", > "ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses > is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is > an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" > and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers > if she told them that she spelled these words differently. For the record, it is specifically the r-ful, "white" pronunciation of the "magic (because of its ability to change the social ambience of any black-white interaction from neutral or good to bad) word" that is grossly offensive. The purpose of the "niggaz," etc. respellings is specifically to block the (presumably unwitting) use of that pronunciation by unassimilated, so to speak, whites who wish to associate with blacks and live to tell about it. I personally am not offended by any (re)spelling of "nigger" that may appear in print. However, I find hearing the r-ful pronunciation extremely unpleasant [Youse know what my dad told me we call youse? Niggers! That's what we call youse. Niggers!], regardless of the circumstances under which it may be used, even when used by another black person. E.g. I found the r-ful pronunciation to be annoyingly common among members of the black bourgeoisie in Los Angeles, though the use of the magic word is not nearly as common there as in other cities, like Saint Louis, my home town. I was having a beer in a bar in LA, one time, when someone came through the door asking, "How all y'all niggers doing?" The bartender replied, "You can always tell a man from Saint Louis. The first thing he do when he come into a place is call everybody 'nigger'!" On the other hand, in Marshall, TX, the town of my birth, the use of "nigger" among blacks is extremely rare and is almost as tabu as the use of "fuck" in a Sunday sermon. -Wilson Gray > > whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the > writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting > exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the > english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it > provides for the same pronunciation. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 8 02:47:35 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:47:35 EDT Subject: "That's the ticket (for soup)!" (1828) Message-ID: THAT'S THE TICKET--31,000 Google hits, 53,600 Google Groups hits _That's the ticket_ _Kerry picks Sen. John Edwards as his running mate_ --AM NEW YORK, 7 July 2004, pg. 1 headline. A NEW YORK POST "exclusive" yesterday was Dick Gephart as the Veep selection. Oops! Jon Lovitz popularized "that's the ticket!" on Saturday Night Live in the late 1980s. Hoever, its a much, much older term. Does it come for the French "etiquette"? This sound like a false etymology. Does it come from "that the ticket for soup"? Possibly. I'm at home right now and away from the databases Literature Online, American Periodical Series Online, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, and Accessible Archives. I expect that Early American Newspapers will have "that's the ticket," when that database is released soon (in, uh, the second quarter of 2004). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("that's the ticket" and "slang" or "etiquette") 1. HOPKINS AND I GO RIDING ON THE "L" -- ARE THESE THINGS POSSIBLE? A.K.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 1904. p. SMA2 (1 page) LARGE TREES OF CALIFORNIA. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 24, 1913. p. MT5 (1 page): _"THAT'S THE TICKET."_ "That's the ticket," an expression which signifies "that's all right," is derived from the French etiquette, meaning that which is good form. Strangely enough the word etiquette is in itself derived from ticket. The rules and regulations for ladies and gentlemen at court were written or printed on pieces of cards, called tickets (or etiquettes in French) and from this came the word etiquette, meaning proper conduct for all persons. 2. HOW IT STARTED; "That's the Ticket!" JEAN NEWTON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 7, 1924. p. A4 (1 page): This is a favorite manner, in rough-and-ready company, of daying "That's just right--that's the proper way." So typical of what Europeans would dub American slang, it is to the French language that we must go for its origin! "That's the ticket" is a corruption of the French "C'est L'etiquette," which has the same meaning of "that is the proper way." The play is on the French word "etiquette," which means "ticket" or "label" as well as etiquette. In fact, the first is its primary meaning: Pronounced quickly, it is easily comprehensible how "C'est l'etiquette" should have been corrupted by slang-loving visitors like doughboys, for instance, into "That's the ticket," in which form it has found its way to these shores! (CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG) _that's the ticket_ phr. [mid-19C+] just what it wanted, the ideal thing; occas. as _that's the ticket for soup_. [the "soup" ref. stems from the cards given out to beggars entitling them to a free meal at a soup kitchen] (OED) 1856 Punch XXXI. 194 The old ‘Stand and deliver!’ 's all rot; Three to one; hit behind; with a wipe round the jowl, boys, That's the ticketand Vive la Garotte!..Let them cly-fake, we'll tip the Garotte. (...) 1856 ‘C. BEDE’ Tales Coll. Life i. 19 That's the ticket! that will just land me in time for Gates. (...) 9. slang. a. The correct thing; what is wanted, expected, or fashionable; esp. in phr. that's the ticket. Perh. from 8; or, as some have suggested, from the winning ticket in a lottery. 1838 HALIBURTON Clockm. Ser. II. xxi. 323 They ought to be hanged, sir, ( that's the ticket, and he'd whop the leader). 1843 E. FITZGERALD Lett. (1889) I. 117, I fancy that moderately high hills (like these) are the ticket. 1847 Ibid. 179 This [idealizing of portraits] is all wrong. Truth is the ticket. 1854 THACKERAY Newcomes vii, Somehow she's notshe's not the ticket. 1866 Routledge's Ev. Boy's Ann. 411 That's the ticket! That's the winning game. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Delaware Weekly Advertiser And Farmers Journal Thursday, September 04, 1828 Wilmington, Delaware ...rifjht now." Paddy did so. "THAT'S THE TICKET for said bis monitor; "Now mind.....of THE Revolution who are entitled to THE benefits oi THE abovementioned act.. Pg. 4, col. 1: (Titled "SCIENCE OF BRITISH FANCY, From a late London Paper."--ed.) "That's the ticket for soup," said his monitor;... From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 8 03:25:01 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:25:01 -0400 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) Message-ID: The word "bloke" = "man"/"guy"/"chap"/etc. has been used in the US (e.g., it appears in AS a few times) but is nowadays more-or-less non-US-an, I suppose. Michael Quinion treated the etymology recently. The etymological speculations publicized to date seem to be in two general lines (both of which are mentioned, e.g., by Quinion, and in Jonathon Green's dictionary of slang): (1) from Shelta or Romany; (2) from Dutch or Celtic. (1) There are two general subordinate lines of speculation here: (a) "bloke" < earlier "gloak" < Shelta "gloch" (or so) (where the "ch" is /x/ like in Scots). I accept the likelihood of "gloak" < "gloch"; the alternative "gloch" < English "gloak" seems less likely since everybody has a /k/ so /k/ > /x/ seems unlikely, and also since we don't have another obvious source of English "gloak" AFAIK. The Shelta word is possibly from a Celtic origin, e.g., from a cognate of Irish "loach" = "hero"; I don't know how likely this is, but I don't have a better conjecture. But is "bloke from "gloak"? I don't know of any good evidence that it is. Shelta has Celtic and English origins, I suppose; if it has Romany origins also, this possibility might also lead to (b) below. (b) "bloke" < Romany (presumably "[b]loke" or so), said to be from "Hindi/Hindustani 'loke' = 'a man'" (e.g., in Partridge). I have two problems with this derivation. First, I cannot find any evidence of Romany "[b]loke". Second, AFAIK there is no Hindi "loke" meaning "a man". Probably Partridge et al. are referring to Hindi "lok" meaning "people" (also "the public", from Sanskrit "loka" meaning also "world"/"place") (as in "Lok Sabha" which is, I think, the Indian equivalent of "House of Commons" with "lok" analogous to "commons"). I find this word in Hindi dictionaries (also Marathi, Punjabi, Sanskrit cognates), but I do not find it glossed/translated "[a] man" anywhere. Comments/corrections are requested from anyone more familiar with Hindi or Sanskrit or Romany (of which there are multiple dialects of course). Anyway "bloke" is not "lok". (2) "bloke" < Dutch "blok" or Celtic "ploc"/"bloc", with more-or-less the sense "blockish person". Of course these Dutch and Celtic words are equivalent to English "block" (the Dutch word a cousin or ancestor, the Celtic words apparently taken from English), and "blockish" can mean "stubborn", "stupid", etc. (the distinction does not seem critical in the etymological-speculation context). This derivation does not seem implausible, but why not derive "bloke" directly from English "block" = "blockish person" (in OED with a 16th century example) instead of from analogous external sources? In the old expression "chip of the old block", isn't the old block really the old bloke? It is not at all clear to me which (if any) of these possibilities has any merit. But IMHO a speculative derivation from Hindi/Sanskrit "lok[a]" cannot be taken seriously without some further documentation (e.g., a transitional form in Romany ... or adopted Hindustani [Hobson-Jobson is silent]). -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 8 04:22:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:22:30 EDT Subject: Golden Triangles; OT: My lobby in NY Times Message-ID: Sorry for the typing errors in my last post. I was losing consciousness at one point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GOLDEN TRIANGLES I had dinner at Tara Thai at First Avenue near St. Mark's Place last night. The menu said its "golden triangles" were famous. Google shows that many Thai places offer this dish. There appears to be no relation to "golden arches" or to Archimedes ("golden crown"). Also, no relation to Pittsburgh's "golden triangle" (see ADS-L archives). GOLDEN TRIANGLES + THAI--110 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE) Thai's Restaurant ... APPETIZERS AP01 Golden Triangles.....4.50 Fresh tofu triangles, deep fried ... with a peanut sauce AP03 Thai Rolls ... cambridge.zami.com/Thais - 12k - Cached - Similar pages NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus, Ratings, Reviews. MenuPages ... ... pretty authentic. Tara Thai is very cheap considering how great their food is. I love the golden triangles and the tofu panang. If ... www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails. asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=2579 - 61k - Cached - Similar pages Bangkok Blue ... something thrilling in every course: the shu mai, the golden triangles, the chicken rendang, the seafood in the choo chee fisherman, the homemade Thai custard. ... www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/ food/97/05/08/BANGKOK_BLUE.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages Fifty Plus Advocate Dining Review from September 20, 2001 ... and considered the possibilities of a variety of dumplings ($4.95); Thai spring rolls ... We opted for the golden triangles of crispy tofu served with a peanut ... www.fiftyplusadvocates.com/yoongtongrestaurant.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Boston.com / A&E / Dining/Food ... We start with golden triangles ($4.95), warm wontons stuffed with ground chicken and Thai herbs and served with a sweet and sour sauce. ... www.boston.com/dining/globe_review/839 - 27k - Cached - Similar pages Baan Thai ... Golden Triangles 30 Pieces $33.00 Crispy triangles stuffed with a mixture of minced ... Siam Fried Rice $51.00 Thai native fried rice served with cucumber slices. ... www.corpcatering.com/catermenu/tumrubthai_cmenu.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) . New Police Curb Drugs In SE Asia The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 3, 1972. p. A2 (1 page): Ingersoll, testifying before the Senate Narcotics Subcommittee, said the police program is aimed at the "golden triangle" border regions where Thailand, Burma and Laos meet. The Thai Connection By LESTER WOLFF. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1972. p. E9 (1 page): Today, the greatest source of heroin supply in the world is found in the "Golden Triangle" of Southeast Asia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OT: MY LOBBY MAKES THE SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 4TH What could be next? My studio apartment on Robin Leach's "Lifestyles of the low-wage New York City civil servants"? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/realestate/04COV.html When It Comes to the Lobby, Everyone Is a Decorator By JOANNE KAUFMAN Published: July 4, 2004 (...) As that great sage and comic Jimmy Durante was wont to observe, "Everybody wants to get into the act." Dennis Paget, president of the co-op board at 225 East 57th Street, said he could retire in comfort and style if he had a quarter for each person who offered "expert" assistance during the building's lobby renovation three years ago. "People I haven't heard from in 10 years about anything started sending me notes, saying things like: `Why didn't you ask me to be in charge? You should see my apartment. It's just beautiful,' " recalled Mr. Paget, founder of Language American Style, a firm that teaches English to international executives. Ms. Marks, the designer, who ended up taking charge of her lobby's renovation, said: "No one wants to be on a co-op board because it's a lot of work. But they all think they're decorators." The changes to her lobby included swapping the boxy-looking industrial entryway fixtures for curved frosted glass. The carpet, which "looked like a rug waiting to be replaced," was jettisoned, exposing the marble floor, Ms. Marks said. The wood veneer on the walls was refurbished and a large container of flowers was placed near the courtyard, she added. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jul 8 08:41:38 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:41:38 +0100 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My thanks to Doug Wilson for his thoughts on 'bloke/gloak'. FWIW, the link to the assumed 'Hindi' loke appears, as noted in the OED - whence I, and I would assume Partridge copied it - as suggested by 'Ogilvie', i.e. J. Ogilvie, The Imperial Dictionary (1855; rev. by Annandale 1883 - the rev. edn became the basis of the Century Dict. of 1889). I note his superior knowledge - my etymology has been amended. As to the gloak > bloke link, it may or may not be relevant that the earliest cites I have unearthed (1830s-50s) spell it 'bloak'. (That said, the mutability of slang transcription can never be underestimated). My only other thought is that while the link to 'block' is appealing, the sense of bloke has, at least in the UK, never been 'stupid' or 'blockish'. Instead, when it doesn't simply mean 'man', it is cognate with the modern 'lad' (as in contemporary UK 'lad culture', 'ladettes' etc. and in the earlier 'Jack-the-lad'), i.e. macho, hail-fellow-well-met, generally working-class masculinity. Jonathon Gree From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 8 17:41:23 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:41:23 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah Message-ID: over on the newsgroup soc.motss, michael palmer reports that he found himself watching a rerun of an Oprah show, the one in which O gives out her annual Chutzpah Awards. that sounds like it might be entertaining, you think. but no. as michael writes: ----- The recipients of the Chutzpah Awards are all women who make the BVM seem like Leona Helmsley on a bad day. It turns out that the Chutzpah Awards are for women "with guts" who exhibit exceptional "audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction" and "turn inspiration into action". Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's they didn't. ----- nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", "brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at all. so oprah has ameliorated the word, keeping the audacity and boldness but losing the arrogance and presumption. maybe there's no place in her upbeat world for people who exhibit *real* chutzpah (or -- nod to larry horn -- chutzpah chutzpah). i think she should have called them the Shero Awards. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 8 17:50:59 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <077FA724-D106-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 10:41:23AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > over on the newsgroup soc.motss, michael palmer reports that he found > himself watching a rerun of an Oprah show, the one in which O gives out > her annual Chutzpah Awards. that sounds like it might be entertaining, > you think. but no. as michael writes: > > ----- > The recipients of the Chutzpah Awards are all women who make the BVM > seem like Leona Helmsley on a bad day. It turns out that the Chutzpah > Awards are for women "with guts" who exhibit exceptional "audacity, > nerve, boldness and conviction" and "turn inspiration into action". > > Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable > traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee > intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's > they didn't. > ----- > > nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who > describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of > Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", > "brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its > definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at > all. It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky writing in _Commentary._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 8 18:06:47 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:06:47 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <20040708175058.GA22833@panix.com> Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2004, at 10:50 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote, about positive "chutzpah": > It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the > etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English > innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though > I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky > writing in _Commentary._ (sorry that i didn't check HDAS. that would have required getting up from my chair, whereas AHD4 is literally to hand. i'm bone-lazy.) well, i say this has to stop! fifty years of creeping niceness! overly good-hearted people are stealing a perfectly good and useful word! what will we call real chutzpah now? harrumph! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who doesn't use smileys From bkane3 at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 8 19:00:32 2004 From: bkane3 at EARTHLINK.NET (Bernard Kane) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:00:32 -0400 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah Message-ID: > [Original Message] > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > To: > Date: 7/8/04 2:06:47 PM > Subject: Re: semantic change: chutzpah --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > On Jul 8, 2004, at 10:50 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote, about positive > "chutzpah": > > > It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the > > etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English > > innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though > > I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky > > writing in _Commentary._ > > (sorry that i didn't check HDAS. that would have required getting up > from my chair, whereas AHD4 is literally to hand. i'm bone-lazy.) > > well, i say this has to stop! fifty years of creeping niceness! > overly good-hearted people are stealing a perfectly good and useful > word! what will we call real chutzpah now? harrumph! > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who doesn't use smileys Question: Has the derivative adj form "chutzpahdik" made its way permanently into the E vocabulary? Was widely used a few years back, applied e.g. to female editors of coated-stock periodicals. --- Bernard Kane --- bkane3 at earthlink.net From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jul 8 22:36:13 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:36:13 -0400 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) In-Reply-To: <20040708040031.8D6C022868@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Douglas Wilson writes: (2) "bloke" < Dutch "blok" or Celtic "ploc"/"bloc", with more-or-less the sense "blockish person". Of course these Dutch and Celtic words are equivalent to English "block" (the Dutch word a cousin or ancestor, the Celtic words apparently taken from English), and "blockish" can mean "stubborn", "stupid", etc. (the distinction does not seem critical in the etymological-speculation context). This derivation does not seem implausible, but why not derive "bloke" directly from English "block" = "blockish person" (in OED with a 16th century example) instead of from analogous external sources? In the old expression "chip of the old block", isn't the old block really the old bloke? <<< It's a lot easier to get a literal chip off an old block (of stone) than to get one off an old bloke. The block is also less likely to complain. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 9 00:07:41 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:07:41 -0500 Subject: databases Message-ID: Free searchable databases: 19th Century Mormon Publications (Planned to include a file of the Deseret News) http://relarchive.byu.edu/19th/ Ad*Access (7000 print ads from 1911 to 1955) http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/adaccess/search.html British Library Online Newspaper Archive http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com/ Brooklyn Daily Eagle http://www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/eagle/index.htm Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/index.html Department of Transportation Online Digital Special Collections (accident reports, regulations, manuals, etc.; early to late 20th cent) http://dotlibrary2.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_c aafaa Eisenhower Battlefield Communiques 6/44 - 5/45 http://www.lib.byu.edu/spc/eisenhower/ English Online Resources (Univ. of Va) http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/eng-on.html Historic Missouri Newspaper Project http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/archive/Skins/Missouri/navigator.asp?skin=Mis souri&BP=OK Historical Ricks College / BYUI Scroll (College Newspaper 1938 - 1958) http://www.lib.byui.edu/scrollSearchNew.htm Making of America http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/ Proceedings of the Old Bailey http://www.oldbaileyonline.org.uk/ Southwest Historical Quarterly 1897- 1918 http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/publications/journals/shq/online/index.html Utah Digital Newspapers http://www.lib.utah.edu/digital/unews/ From kristen-ted at SBCGLOBAL.NET Fri Jul 9 00:18:39 2004 From: kristen-ted at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Kristen and Ted) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:18:39 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: Hello, I'm writing a story on "First Ladies", pastors' wives in African-American churches for the State Journal Register in Springfield, Illinois, and I am having a really hard time finding out the history behind the term. It's a colloquial phrase. I've tried a bunch of sites with no success. Here is a list of most of them (from mediabistro.com)--I also tried religionsource, faith.com, beliefnet, google, altavista, ask jeeves and various online dictionaries. I do know that the term "first lady" was originally used for President Rutherford Hayes' wife, Lucy Webb Hayes. He took office in 1877. So the question would be how/when the phrase spread into wider usage, specifically into African-American churches. Thank you very much for your assistance. Kristen Schmid kristen-ted at sbcglobal.net AcademicInfo Reference Desk Look for the "On This Day" feature and an excellent collection of Almanac links. Bloomsbury Reference Centre Hits-and-myths collection of world literature, guides to art and "human thought" and a dictionary of English literature. Highbeam eLibrary Research The former eLibrary is reincarnated as Highbeam Research, offering access to an archive of some 28 million documents spanning more than 20 years of publication. Free and premium service is available. InfoMine The Webmasters from UC Riverside claim "115,948 academically valuable resources." We won't quibble with their counting, but the in-depth reference site is a superb resource for the sciences and humanities. InfoPlease This potpourri is a factchecker's dream. Internet Public Library As you'd expect from a site run by librarians, this collection of Web databases and fact resources, is neatly organized into sensible categories. The site is simply designed and easy to use. Sponsor: the University of Michigan School of Information. Librarians' Index to the Internet The Internet, tidily organized into sensible groups by more than 100 volunteer librarians. RefDesk Matt Drudge's father finally has something to be proud of: Mr. Drudge pere's collection of Web-wide reference resources is the best of breed for quick look-ups. Don't be put off by the cluttered layout -- the content is first-rate. RefTools The site looks like a low-rent Yahoo! but it actually is a powerhouse of little, searchable databases. From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jul 9 03:28:50 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:28:50 -0500 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <20040708174141.E76195CB3@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Coincidentally, on another listserve I subscribe to I found, just today, the semantics of "chutzpah" shifting in a different direction in this message from a 38-ish male of unknown ethnicity. >>>>> Growing up here [NYC], I was exposed at a pretty young age to agressive in-your-face expression. The city culture is definitely one that welcomes unvarnished opinons. Coming to Minnesota, it was hard to figure out what people were thinking becuase they hardly ever just came out and told you. It was considered impolite. It's possible that transplants to the city become overzealous converts to obnoxiousness, but it's hard to top a New York City cop or a pastrami cutter at Katz's Deli for pure unadulterated chutzpah. <<<<< Obnoxious directness is not my idea of chutzpah, [Rosten's anecdote of the man who kills both his parents and pleads in court for mercy because he is an orphan illustrates my idea of chutzpah] but is it becoming a common understanding of the term? --Tom Kysilko At 7/8/2004 10:41 AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >but no. as michael writes: >Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable >traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee >intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's >they didn't. >----- > >nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who >describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of >Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", >"brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its >definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at >all. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 9 04:22:38 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:22:38 EDT Subject: "World War I, II" in Google Answers Message-ID: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=371070 Take from OED, steal from Fred Shapiro, collect two bucks! Here's the answer: Subject: Re: World War I & II - when were these terms first used? Answered By: actualwolf-ga on 07 Jul 2004 18:39 PDT Rated: Hi Victus- According to the Oxford English Dictionary online, (OED is widely considered to be THE "last word" on matters of English word usage") the phrase "world war" first came into use in 1909 in the 8 April edition of the _Westminster Gazette_ .However, this usage precedes the actual First World War. Similarly,the phrase "World War 2" preceded the Second World War as well, whenused in reference to an unrelated conflict by the _ManchesterGuardian_ on 18 February in 1919. Interestingly enough, both World Wars I & II seem to have been namedas such in one swoop by _Time_ magazine in its 11 September 1938 issue. So, essentially World War I was called "The Great War" or "The War to End All Wars," until the beginning of World War II, which was never commonly called anything else. I hope this answer is satisfactory and thank you for using Google Answers, actualwolf SITES USED:The Oxford English Dictionary Worldwidehttp://www.oed.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 9 05:26:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:26:46 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: Here from AP ... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html ... is the word "wag": <> I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? Is it in any dictionary? Should it be? -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 9 05:33:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: IMHO, it shouldn't be in a dictionary. YMMV. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:26 AM Subject: Wag > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 15:24:17 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:24:17 -0700 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040709011448.02f4ceb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: It certainly isn't well-known to me. I read the same quote and was puzzled at his use of the word. If it's an acronym, why wasn't it uppercased? That would have given me a clue. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 9, 2004 1:26 AM -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the > article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 9 15:56:25 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:56:25 -0600 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <000d01c46576$4fcd08c0$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: But what does YMMV mean? (Sorry for not being in the know!) Victoria > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Wag > > > IMHO, it shouldn't be in a dictionary. YMMV. > > SC Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 15:55:08 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:55:08 -0700 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <000901c465cd$49ea2800$f3120b45@vneufeldt> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:56 AM, Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But what does YMMV mean? (Sorry for not being in the know!) Your Mileage May Vary From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:01:12 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:01:12 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: WAG was known to me. http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=WAG As was SWAG, as Simple WAG, but is not shown at the following. http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=SWAG And, YMMV, a popular 'statement' in discussion lists: http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=ymmv George Cole Shippensburg University From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 9 16:00:01 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:01 -0500 Subject: Wag Message-ID: > As was SWAG, as Simple WAG, I always thought it was "silly wild ass guess". The preferred term in the lab/office where I work is not to have a WAG, but to obtain the answer by rectal extraction (pull it out of your ass). From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:13:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:13:25 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <077FA724-D106-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: on Jul 8, 2004, at 10:41 AM, i wrote about oprah's Chutzpah Awards. and then, in the same day's Palo Alto Daily News there's a Dear Abby column headed "Taking uninvited kids [to a bar mitzvah] takes serious chutzpah". jeanne phillips, as Abby, introduces the word herself, glossing it as "nerve or gall". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that some people (not Abby) seem to be using "chutzpah" to cover the same territory as non-literal "balls", so that "chutzpahdik" (mentioned by bernard kane) translates as "ballsy" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:22:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:38 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination Message-ID: for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive inferior, care. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that this sort of thing is very unlikely to occur in speech, since it virtually requires pencil and paper to work out From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jul 9 16:27:42 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:27:42 -0400 Subject: [?] databases Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: > >Making of America >http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/ It is important, I believe, to note that there are two distinct "Making of America" sites. The other is http://www.hti.umich.edu/m/moagrp/ Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:53:30 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:53:30 -0400 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: <31E8E3D4-D1C4-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:22 AM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the >generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary >example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from >Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: > >A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, >unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive >inferior, care. > And then there are the unconcerned uninsured, who have less access to, but don't really, care. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 17:11:20 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:11:20 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually find Browning's sentence "kinda neat"--in both literal and figurative senses. (And I'm un- neither -concerned nor -insured.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 9, 2004 12:53 PM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:22 AM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the >> generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary >> example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from >> Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: >> >> A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, >> unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive >> inferior, care. >> > And then there are the unconcerned uninsured, who have less access > to, but don't really, care. > > larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 17:21:39 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:21:39 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1089367880@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > I actually find Browning's sentence "kinda neat"--in both literal and > figurative senses. (And I'm un- neither -concerned nor -insured.) i admire your chutzpah in devising that coordination, and when i say that i mean it in the nicest possible way. arnold, who finds browning's coordination (unlike your tmetic one, or larry's zeugmatic "who have less access to, but don't really, care") entirely grammatical, just challenging to interpret From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Jul 9 16:17:40 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:17:40 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:26:46 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" writes: > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But > is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the > article? It's a pretty common word among engineers. Syn: onageristic estimate. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:05:19 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:05:19 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our > viewing pleasure: > > consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come > along > and drop your tables > > "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone > can't just waltz into their place of business." > > But anyone can't solve that problem... > > The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone > can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to > say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel > > Just anybody can't baptize anybody. > > People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody > can't give > it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times > > But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on > my desktop and start loading things. > > With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to > realize that > just anybody can't be governor "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by it. the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" examples. i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut reactions. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:26:11 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky said: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >> viewing pleasure: >> >> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >> along >> and drop your tables >> >> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >> can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >> But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >> can't give >> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >> my desktop and start loading things. >> >> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >> realize that >> just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > >i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >reactions. Even reading silently, I read "but anyone can't solve that problem" with added emphasis on "anyone", for what it's worth. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:21:56 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:21:56 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of the singer): Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? At 02:05 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>viewing pleasure: >> >>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>along >>and drop your tables >> >>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >>But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>can't give >>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>my desktop and start loading things. >> >>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>realize that >>just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > >i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >reactions. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 22:33:36 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:33:36 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 9, 2004 2:05 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >> viewing pleasure: >> >> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >> along >> and drop your tables >> >> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >> can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >> But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >> can't give >> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >> my desktop and start loading things. >> >> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >> realize that >> just anybody can't be governor > > "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have > to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by > it. > > the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have > a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), > which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" > examples. > > i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut > reactions. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) I don't read "But anyone can't solve that problem" any differently than the other examples that seem to have a lurking "just." It seems to me as if "just anyone" has evolved into something like a proper name, Just Anyone, in these contexts. (Something like the ghostly Not Me who crops up from time to time in the Family Circus comic strip?) "[Just] Anyone can't solve that problem." "[John] Smith can't solve that problem." OTOH, anyone probably won't agree with me. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 9 23:12:49 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:12:49 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <200407091431.1bJ2XH57z3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: FWIW, sentences of this type remind of what you would get if you "standardized" a Labovian Ebonic sentence of the the type: a. Can't no cat get into no [pigeon] coop -> b. Can't any cat get into any [pigeon] coop -> c. Any cat can't get into any [pigeon] coop Cf. the reversed procedure: a. But anyone can't solve that problem -> b. But can't anyone solve that problem -> c. But can't no one solve that problem -Wilson Gray On Jul 9, 2004, at 5:21 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: failures of parallelism > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of the > singer): > > Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? > > At 02:05 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>> viewing pleasure: >>> >>> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>> along >>> and drop your tables >>> >>> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>> can't just waltz into their place of business." >>> >>> But anyone can't solve that problem... >>> >>> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >>> >>> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >>> >>> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>> can't give >>> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >>> >>> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>> my desktop and start loading things. >>> >>> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>> realize that >>> just anybody can't be governor >> >> "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >> to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >> it. >> >> the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >> a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >> which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >> examples. >> >> i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >> reactions. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:39:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:39:02 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>viewing pleasure: >> >>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>along >>and drop your tables >> >>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >>But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>can't give >>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>my desktop and start loading things. >> >>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>realize that >>just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), That's the trick; the "just" of course is a free-choice disambiguator. But I've never been sure what we mean when we say there's an implied "just" (others have said it about (what I call) metalinguistic negation in scalar contexts: I didn't eat {just} some of the cookies, I ate all of them). My sense is that even if English had no word "just" we could get such sentences--on the free-choice or metalinguistic understandings respectively. >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > Well, for what it's worth, I get "ANYbody can't solve that problem" in the same way--it doesn't really need the "just", but it does need a fall-rise contour , without or (preferably) with the "just" signaling what's coming. This is noted by Haspelmath (1993/1997), who calls these (= "not just any X") anti-depreciatives; I call them anti-indiscriminatives in a couple of papers I published in 2000. What's being negated here is the "n'importe qu-", "it doesn't matter wh-", or "any old" understanding associated with free-choice _any_. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:42:52 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:52 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:26 PM -0400 7/9/04, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold M. Zwicky said: >>"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >>to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >>it. >> >>the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >>a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >>which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >>examples. >> >>i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >>reactions. > >Even reading silently, I read "but anyone can't solve that problem" >with added emphasis on "anyone", for what it's worth. >-- Exactly, only I would say (indeed, have said elsewhere in print) that it's not just emphasis but the appropriate fall-rise-type contour (sorry, I know I should learn the ToBI notation, but...). Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:45:31 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:45:31 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040709172014.01f4ea48@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0400 7/9/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of >the singer): > >Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? > Well, "It's not unusual to be loved by someone" doesn't really scan. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:55:54 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:55:54 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1089387216@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >--On Friday, July 9, 2004 2:05 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" > wrote: > >>On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>>viewing pleasure: >>> >>>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>>along >>>and drop your tables >>> >>>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>>can't just waltz into their place of business." >>> >>>But anyone can't solve that problem... >>> >>>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >>> >>>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >>> >>>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>>can't give >>>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >>> >>>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>>my desktop and start loading things. >>> >>>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>>realize that >>>just anybody can't be governor >> >>"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >>to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >>it. >> >>the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >>a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >>which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >>examples. >> >>i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >>reactions. >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >I don't read "But anyone can't solve that problem" any differently than the >other examples that seem to have a lurking "just." It seems to me as if >"just anyone" has evolved into something like a proper name, Just Anyone, >in these contexts. (Something like the ghostly Not Me who crops up from >time to time in the Family Circus comic strip?) > >"[Just] Anyone can't solve that problem." >"[John] Smith can't solve that problem." > I don't think the "just anyone" as proper name is the right take on it. For one thing, it's not just "just anyone", but "just anybody", "just any Democrat", "just any linguist", etc. etc. Furthermore, as Alice and I were saying earlier, it's more the suprasegmentals that are the key for getting these readings, although the "just" doesn't hurt. Similarly for disambiguating an object "any" in the scope of negation: You can't do (just) ANYthing around here. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 10 03:31:12 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:31:12 EDT Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (1976) Message-ID: PITTSBURGH STYLE + STEAK--209 Google hits, 38 Google Groups hits "THIS CHARRED filet mignon is served Pittsburgh style--meaning it's seared on all sides." --METRO, Weekend, July 9-11, 2004, pg. 15, col. 1. Pittsburgh style? Maybe someone reading this is from Pittsburgh, or is doing a book on American regional English, or is doing a book on food in America. You never know. It's not in DARE. OED is fast approaching "p." I don't have FACTIVA handy. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Rarer than rare, 'Pittsburgh-ed' ... Also I've heard black outside/rare middle called "pittsburgh" style (pittsburghed?pittsburghing?) Anybody tell me how this term came to be? ... alt.food.barbecue - Nov 8, 2002 by J. Helman - View Thread (12 articles) Re: Steaks: Pittsburg Style Okay *now* I'm being flippant....could it be that "Pittsburgh style" simply means too lazy to flip the steak? Now, now, I am a Pittsburgher born and bred. ... alt.support.diet.low-carb - Jun 13, 1998 by Shailagh Collins - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Why GAWD!!! is good ... BTW, blackened in steak parlance is "Chicago style" or "Pittsburgh style ." It can be referred to as black (as in black and blue), but not blackened. ... rec.sport.football.college - May 14, 2001 by Jefferson Glapski - View Thread (40 articles) Re: How Does A Cigar Smoking Man Like Steak Cooked? Pittsburgh Style! Charred on the outside--red in the middle! Done correctly, it's Scrumptious!!! Most steak houses don't have a hot enough grill though. ... alt.smokers.cigars - Aug 30, 2001 by Marco - View Thread (70 articles) Re: Philadelphia-Style hot dogs ... area. It like Pittsburgh-style steak - Huh? I lived in PGH for 16 years and I never heard of a PGH-style steak until I left. The ... rec.food.cooking - Apr 18, 2004 by John Droge - View Thread (24 articles) Re: Pittsburgh Cuisine Pittsburgh Style Steak (charred on the outside, very rare inside) BBQ Chipped Ham Sandwiches Is the Islay's version like this? I ... rec.food.cooking - Oct 12, 2003 by Steve Calvin - View Thread (51 articles) Re: easy tangles ... every man i meet, i'll fuck you till your dick turns blue, etc. so, did you order your ruth chris steak "pittsburgh style"? jestus alt.music.tragically-hip - Apr 2, 1997 by jestusg at aol.com - View Thread (3 articles) (Oldest hit on Google Groups--ed.) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Message 2 in thread From: Stan (the Man) (skid at optonline.net) Subject: Re: Rarer than rare, 'Pittsburgh-ed' View this article only Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue Date: 2002-11-07 05:20:58 PST (...) This is also called "black and blue," meaning charred on the outside,cool--almost raw--on the inside.For the origin of the phrase "Pittsburgh style": Stan (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Progress Friday, March 26, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 14 02. S9.95 Char-broiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....Elliot Hints At November Election Try PITTSBURGH (AP) Frank thwarted in bis.. Progress Friday, April 02, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 1 4 oz. S9.95 Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....Dishes To Choose From Of Cleat-field PITTSBURGH Although long-distance steel.. Progress Tuesday, April 06, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Sirloin Strip STEAK, 14oz. Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.. Progress Friday, March 19, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Sirloin Strip STEAK, 14oz. Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....YOUR Americarri Andersen's, Houtzdale PITTSBURGH Paints SMOOTH AS GLASS Hoiden.. Page 2, col. 1: N. Y. Sirloin Steak, 14 oz. ....$9.95 Charbroiled Pittsburgh Style Shreton Motor Inn I-80 Exit 17 DuBois Progress Tuesday, March 23, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 14oz. S9.95 Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....For UMW To Return To Coal Fields PITTSBURGH (APi Thomas Pysell, director.. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jul 10 12:53:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:53:23 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson Message-ID: I have just had the following exchange with Ian Lancashire, the General Editor of Representative Poetry Online, of the University of Toronto Press and the University's English Department. I wrote: #> In looking for the text of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" online I found #> your page (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2116.html) among #> others. Many of these pages, unfortunately including yours, have the same #> error: "their's" for "theirs" in the second stanza. It is not in the #> manuscript (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/britpo/tennyson/TenChar.html). #> #> It looks as if somebody typed up the poem and put it on the Internet and a #> lot of other people copied it without credit and without examination. It #> happens all the time, but it's no less regrettable for that. He replied: #All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in RPO. I #took my text from the original printed edition. He decided not to use the #manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change his #mind? I answered: I am surprised. I am not a Tennyson scholar. I have only known "their's" as a very common error. I can only conclude that either a. Tennyson made the same error, or b. His editor or a proofreader or typesetter did, or b. It was considered correct in his time. Thank you for your reply and further information. I am going to forward this correspondence to the discussion list of the American Dialect Society. -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature University of Pennsylvania From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 15:06:08 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:06:08 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson In-Reply-To: <20040710084857.D53506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >#All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in RPO. I >#took my text from the original printed edition. According to the RPO footnote this printed edition dates from 1908, about 54 years after the first printing. There are several other printed versions reproduced at MoA, dated from 1855 to 1892 IIRC, all of them without the dubious apostrophes. This Web transcription ... http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html ... has the apostrophes and claims to be from an 1870 book. >He decided not to use the >#manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change his >#mind? Hard to know for certain. Tennyson died in 1892. Here is the same issue discussed: http://killdevilhill.com/golfchat/read.php?f=133&i=5483&t=5483 My own casual guess is that somebody goofed in typesetting. But IF Tennyson employed these apostrophes (in some revisions, perhaps) it wouldn't have to be an error, necessarily, nor any standard of the time, but maybe just his free choice or 'poetic license'. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 10 15:22:58 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:22:58 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson In-Reply-To: <200407100806.1bJjqQ1pV3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in > Tennyson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> #All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in >> RPO. I >> #took my text from the original printed edition. > > According to the RPO footnote this printed edition dates from 1908, > about > 54 years after the first printing. > > There are several other printed versions reproduced at MoA, dated from > 1855 > to 1892 IIRC, all of them without the dubious apostrophes. > > This Web transcription ... > http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html ... > has the apostrophes and claims to be from an 1870 book. > >> He decided not to use the >> #manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change >> his >> #mind? > > Hard to know for certain. Tennyson died in 1892. > > Here is the same issue discussed: > > http://killdevilhill.com/golfchat/read.php?f=133&i=5483&t=5483 > > My own casual guess is that somebody goofed in typesetting. > > But IF Tennyson employed these apostrophes (in some revisions, > perhaps) it > wouldn't have to be an error, necessarily, nor any standard of the > time, > but maybe just his free choice or 'poetic license'. > > -- Doug Wilson One never knows, do one? E.g. some writers eschew strings on the type, "... wouldn't have to be an error ... nor any standard of the time," preferring "... wouldn't have to be an error ... or some standard of the time." "To each their own," to coin a phrase. -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 17:46:39 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:46:39 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <013901c4654a$492bd090$62bffea9@KTS> Message-ID: >I'm writing a story on "First Ladies", pastors' wives in African-American >churches for the State Journal Register in Springfield, Illinois, and I am >having a really hard time finding out the history behind the term. I believe "first lady of X" generally means "wife of the head man of X". I don't know the exact origin but it's transparent enough that it might have come into common use centuries ago. "First lady of the nation" meaning "wife of the US President" was applied to Mrs. George Washington as early as the 1840's (however it is possible to construe this differently, with "lady of the nation" meaning "President's wife" and Martha being the first of these ladies). E.g., the following would be conventional: "First lady of the US" = "Wife of the US President" "First lady of Pennsylvania" = "Wife of the PA Governor" "First lady of the Soviet Union" = "Wife of the USSR Premier" "First lady of the University of Texas" = "Wife of the U. Texas president" The following occurs occasionally (apologies to the Queen): "First lady of the UK" = "Wife of the Prime Minister of the UK" Note that the term is NOT generally applied to a woman who is herself head of state or university president or whatever. For some reason commercial corporation applications like "First lady of IBM" = "Wife of the IBM president" do not seem to occur [much]. [Occasionally "first lady of X" is used less specifically, like "most important lady of X", but I believe this is exceptional.] "First lady of the church" = "Wife of the pastor of the church" is presumably an example of the same nomenclature. Google search for <<"first lady of the church">> provides many examples, including photos of various ladies. Question: in a large church which has multiple pastors, is only the chief pastor's wife called "first lady"? Is there a "second first lady"? Or a "second lady"? -- Doug Wilson From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Sat Jul 10 19:13:32 2004 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:13:32 -0400 Subject: extraordinary coordination Message-ID: > > arnold, who finds browning's coordination > entirely grammatical, just challenging to interpret To me, it seems crystal clear in print (expanded to "the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to [care] and receive inferior care" with the bracketed word eliminating the need for his carefully placed commas), but it might be challenging to interpret in speech. One would have to be very careful, pausing just right, so that it doesn't come out sounding as if "inferior" is also governed by "access to" ("the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to [inferior care] and receive inferior care"). Alan Baragona From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 19:26:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:26:51 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism (disjunctive division) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A related use of "any...not..." to the one Arnold mentioned was just brought to my attention inadvertently by a colleague who sent me a message containing the following prediction about a graduate student from the colleague's country who is now studying in the U.S. (For anonymity's sake, I have substituted "Krakhozhia(n)", a fictional country and nationality in the current Spielberg/Hanks movie The Terminal, for the actual country and nationality in question): He, or any Krakhozhian, won't return to Krakhozhia without a degree. The writer of the letter is a native speaker of Krakhozhian, as it were, but the "X or any...not..." construction strikes me as perfectly natural (if by some standards not technically "correct") English, and led me to google up the following brace of similar disjunctions in which an "any" as the second element of a disjunction co-occurs with a following negation: =========== If he, or anyone, can't play by the rules, they're outta here Now, is there any way to make it so he or anyone can't change my account back to limited? I hate the fact that the guy I love is in so much pain and I, or anyone, can't take his pain away It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 2 to prove that he (or any agent or employee of his) did not knowingly permit he or any member of his family within the second degree of consanguinity or affinity has not been threatened he (or any practising member firm with which he is associated) should notŠ he or any other man may not set the party so arrested at liberty ============ Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 21:12:21 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:12:21 -0400 Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (1976) In-Reply-To: <191.2aff7f53.2e20bd00@aol.com> Message-ID: >"THIS CHARRED filet mignon is served Pittsburgh style--meaning it's seared on >all sides." I surely never heard of "Pittsburgh-style steak" anywhere. I don't think it's clear that the term in the isolated 1976 advertisement has the same sense as that which is claimed in recent items. -- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sat Jul 10 21:25:04 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:25:04 -0400 Subject: Ms. First Lady, not just anybody In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$dd38@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Being an Ella fan, I've heard "first lady of jazz" pretty often, because Ms. Fitzgerald wasn't just anybody, not because of her husbands. (Yes, I write Ms. with a period, as in Ms. Steinem's magazine.) As for second ladies, this article refers to the veep's woman. http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:WE2c9SxEyLMJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady_of_the_United_States+first+lady+of+jazz&hl=en Pretty funny picture of Lynne Cheney is here. http://www.whitehouse.org/ask/lynne.asp **** Just anybody is the negative of someone special, so "just anybody can't hop that fence," would mean that most people couldn't jump it, but Superman and certain Olympians could. Is that how you would read it? ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 10 22:13:56 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:13:56 -0400 Subject: upped/up? Message-ID: On another list, we have been discussing these variants: then he up and died then he upped and died Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the historical present, as in narratives, thus: then he ups and dies not then he up and dies. But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in this entry for up as a v: --- b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or boldly, to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. Ê ÊÊ(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups and says, that minute, ÔProve so!Õ 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, Heart sunk inside me: ÔWell, pad on my prate-apace!Õ ÊÊ ÊÊ(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ÔMARK TWAINÕ Huck. Finn xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. 1898 ÔH. S. MERRIMANÕ Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ÔA. GILBERTÕ Death against Clock 81 So you upped and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we could we upped and fled. --- What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 02:28:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:28:11 -0400 Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (FACTIVA cites); The Fun CIty (January 7, 1966) Message-ID: PITTSBURGH-STYLE STEAK (continued) "Shreton" in that 1976 citation should be "Sheraton." I was tired. (FACTIVA) Peter Citron Bush Leaguers Taste What Bush Ate 1,084 words 15 February 1990 The Omaha World-Herald Sunrise 49 (...) She wanted to know whether the Bushes "made it all gone," and King said they consumed 90 percent of their opener - spinach salads - and 100 percent of their entrees. Bush had a pepper steak, Pittsburgh style, with wild rice; his wife opted for seafood over fettuccini. (FACTIVA) NEWS Peter Citron Bushes' Chardonnay Choice Was Fine 1,086 words 16 February 1990 The Omaha World-Herald Sunrise 43 English (Copyright 1990 Omaha World-Herald Company) WHEN GEORGE and Barbara Bush dined last week at the Marriott's prestigious Chardonnay Room, they showed remarkable self-control, bypassing the half-dozen temptations on the dessert cart. I didn't miss a bit, a bite or a just dessert in an afterglow re-creation of the capital residents' meal (upon which the hotel intends fully to capitalize). Already added to the Chardonnay's nine-page menu (three of them devoted to wine) is a note from Dave King, maitre d', and Bill Tomek, chef, describing the Feb. 7 first family visit: "The president especially enjoyed our rendition of the classic steak au poivre prepared 'Pittsburgh Style': charred outside, medium rare center. The first lady selected our shellfish fettucine, an array of shrimp, crab and scallops tossed in a supreme sauce, served on a bed of spinach pasta." (...) (FACTIVA) The Tangled Ways and Means Of Dan Rostenkowski Phil Kuntz 6,190 words 5 June 1993 Congressional Quarterly Weekly Report WEEKLY 1403; 1404; 1405; 1406; 1407; 1408; 1409; 1410 Issue: VOL. 51, NO. 23 English (Copyright 1993) COVER STORY: Personal, political and official expense accounts merge to support a power-broker's lifestyle After a frenetic day of politicking and legislating on Capitol Hill, Rep. Dan Rostenkowski likes a nice dinner out with his pals. On a typical night, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee will gather with a group of colleagues, aides and lobbyists at Morton's of Chicago, a Georgetown steakhouse where the best cuts go for $28.95. They sit at one of Rostenkowski's favorite tables, near the brass plaque that says "Rosty's Rotunda," next to the flaming grills. They order drinks, most likely a Gordon's Gin on the rocks for the chairman, maybe two. After the waiter rolls up a display cart of the day's choice steaks, the barrel-chested chairman orders his Pittsburgh style - charred on the outside, rare inside. (FACTIVA) VIRGINIA BEACH BEACON DAVE ROSENFIELD, GENERAL MANAGER OF THE NORFOLK TIDES 370 words 29 September 1993 The Virginian-Pilot and The Ledger-Star, Norfolk, VA FINAL 03 English (Copyright 1993) The party's over. For this year, anyway. But what a party it was for Dave Rosenfield, general manager of the Norfolk Tides. His team had a great debut in its dazzling new Harbor Park stadium, drawing more than 500,000 spectators to the ballpark in the opening months. Now maybe this native Texan - who says he likes his steak Pittsburgh style - will have a little time to pursue his hobby (watching television) or enjoy his idea of a perfect day (doing nothing). (FACTIVA) ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT WEEKEND MAGAZINE Shadyside back yard Elbow Room cooks up casual repasts Review by Woodene Merriman, Post-Gazette Dining Critic 752 words 19 August 1994 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette SOONER 23 English (Copyright 1994) (...) Biggest sellers on the menu, according to restaurant management, are the steak salad, a Pittsburgh-style salad with fries inside, and the hot chicken salad, with more fries. Both are $6. Maybe next time. (FACTIVA) FOOD KITCHEN MAILBOX Cake bakers: Don't let lack of eggs beat you 484 words 23 October 1994 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette FIVE STAR L-1 English (Copyright 1994) Nothing quite tops the sinking feeling of facing a deadline for baking a cake -- and finding that the last eggs went into the morning's omelet. When it was developed, Depression Cake was the solution to an even more distressing problem: bad times when there were no eggs at all. And Wacky Cake is an apt solution for kids who like to cook -- but not wash dishes. Answering a request from John Van Horn of Bethel Park, Paul J. Steliotes, the manager of The Colony Restaurant, Mt. Lebanon, explains the origin of steak prepared "Pittsburgh" style: A customer requested a steak rare. The chef, by accident, charred the outside of the filet mignon nearly black while the inside remained red. The waiter explained to the customer that the chef prepared her steak "Pittsburgh" style. The Colony to this day prepares steaks "Pittsburgh" style at the request of the customer. (FACTIVA) FOOD Seven wonders Longstanding Pittsburgh restaurants that haven't lost their touch Woodene Merriman, Assistant to the Editor, Post-Gazette 2,721 words 27 August 1995 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette FIVE STAR H-8 English (Copyright 1995) (...) The Colony -- 1958 Some of the mature-looking waiters at The Colony were busboys back when Dean Steliotes opened the restaurant in 1958. The menu consisted of lobster tail, sirloin steak and filet mignon. Son Paul, who runs the steakhouse now, remembers that people said it was too expensive and wouldn't last. Complete dinners were about $8. The Colony still has the Lazy Susans with a selection of toppings for salads and a pastry tray with tempting desserts. You can still have your steak "Pittsburgh style" -- black on the outside and red inside -- which Paul thinks started here. But if you want the signature Colony steak sauce, so successful that it's now sold in supermarkets, I guess you have to ask. We weren't offered any. The biggest seller on the menu today is filet mignon, but a strip steak or sirloin has more marbling and more flavor, Paul believes. I agree. His Honor has ordered the filet, and I'm having the sirloin, so we can compare. Both are an inch and a half thick, grilled to perfection. But I do think the sirloin has slightly more flavor than the filet. It doesn't even occur to us to ask for the famous steak sauce; the beef needs no enhancement. I like being able to choose my own salad toppings and ladle on the capers and blue cheese dressing with abandon. Strangely, the rolls served with the salads are cold, but warm buttery rolls of a different variety come with the entrees. Another Colony tradition is the lavish fruit tray -- pineapple, honeydew, cantaloupe, dates, figs, you name it. That's plenty of dessert for us. The Colony has an extensive, pricey wine list. His Honor has chosen a 1992 Chateau Souverain merlot. At $27, it's about the cheapest on the list. The restaurant is dim and quiet, though most of the tables are filled on this weekday. It has an old-time, but yes, solid and established look. Complete dinners are $21 and up. The Colony, corner of Greentree and Cochran roads, Scott; 561-2060. (FACTIVA) ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT LITTLE BITES [ LITTLE BITES ] 520 words 5 October 2001 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette SOONER 28 English (Copyright 2001) (...) Pittsburgh rare Jeff Ehland of Baldwin Borough says the expression "Pittsburgh style" for a steak that's grilled so it's black outside and rare inside has spread to two restaurants he's encountered: Carolina Roadhouse in Myrtle Beach, S.C., and the Warsaw in Dallas, Texas. (Earlier I had mentioned seeing "Pittsburgh rare" at the Weber Grill near Chicago.) "Can you tell me how the Pittsburgh style got started and where in Pittsburgh I can get a steak prepared Pittsburgh style?" Ehland asked. Pittsburgh Steak Co., 1924 E. Carson St., South Side, for one, offers steak Pittsburgh rare -- pan-seared on each side so it's charred on the outside, but still has a cold rare center. Chef George Sotirake says it was started by big, burly steelworkers who carried meat, perhaps a steak, with them to the mills instead of a little bag lunch with a baloney sandwich. They would throw the meat onto the hot steel to blacken it on one side, then the other, and lunch was ready. Any different opinions? Drop a line Woodene Merriman can be reached by e-mail at wmerriman at post- gazette.com, or by writing to her at the Post-Gazette, 34 Boulevard of the Allies, Pittsburgh 15222. As dining critic, she eats at restaurants at least twice before reviewing. She tries to remain anonymous, and the Post-Gazette pays for all meals. WEEKEND MAG (FACTIVA) The Independent Consumer - Steak on a plate... By Caroline Stacey. 1,646 words 26 January 2002 The Independent - London 17 (...) As well as rare, medium and well done, some steak lovers insist on having their steak black and blue, or Pittsburgh style - cooked at such a high temperature that it's almost black on the outside and so barely cooked that it's dark red within. Christopher Gilmore, the owner of the two Christopher's grills in London, won't eat it any other way. (FACTIVA) WAR IN THE GULF: HOMEFRONT: HOMECOMING: Parents, Lithia Springs eager to see pilot MARK BIXLER Staff 914 words 15 April 2003 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Home A8 (...) His parents plan to serve him a dinner of steak cooked "Pittsburgh" style, charred on the outside but rare inside, just the way he likes it. They'll bake potatoes and pour Dr. Pepper, one of his favorites. He's invited to a celebration in the football stadium at Douglas County High School, his alma mater. Organizers say they will schedule it for a few days after Young comes home. They want to give him and his family time to catch up. -------------------------------------------------------------- THE FUN CITY Unfortunately, my "Fun City" citation from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE is in the old ADS-L archives, no longer available. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. Anyone have it? In the meantime, here's another "Fun City" that I hadn't posted. 7 January 1966, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, pg. 13, col. 1: _Dick Schaap_ _The Fun City_ Not long after the transit strike began the other day, Mayor John Lindsay went on radio and television to announce that New York is a fun city. He certainly has a wonderful sense of humor. A little whole later, Lindsay cheerfully walked four miles from his hotel room to City Hall, a gesture which proved that the fun city had a fun Mayor. The funniest thing was that New Yorkers actually were finding humor in the absence of buses and subways. One citizen was very concerned that the pickpockets and muggers, the true New Yorkers, he called them, would get out of shape. He offered to give them a room where they could practice on each other for the duration of the crisis. (...) The New Yorkers' sense of humor spread out of town. In Philadelphia, nearly everyone was talking about the contest in which first prize was one week in New York and second prize was two weeks in New York. (...) (See the ADS-L archives for "one week" and "two weeks" and the Philadelphia origin of that joke--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 11 03:11:27 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:11:27 -0400 Subject: Ms. First Lady, not just anybody In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040710171255.02028f10@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: At 5:25 PM -0400 7/10/04, Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: >Being an Ella fan, I've heard "first lady of jazz" pretty often, because >Ms. Fitzgerald wasn't just anybody, not because of her husbands. (Yes, I >write Ms. with a period, as in Ms. Steinem's magazine.) > >As for second ladies, this article refers to the veep's woman. >http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:WE2c9SxEyLMJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady_of_the_United_States+first+lady+of+jazz&hl=en > >Pretty funny picture of Lynne Cheney is here. >http://www.whitehouse.org/ask/lynne.asp not particularly authorized, but amusing >Just anybody is the negative of someone special, so "just anybody can't hop >that fence," would mean that most people couldn't jump it, but Superman and >certain Olympians could. Is that how you would read it? Essentially, although I'm not entirely comfortable with calling "just anybody" the negative of "someone special". But the two are definitely opposed in the sense you intend. The former presupposes that it doesn't matter who, while the latter (or, even more obviously, "not just anybody") asserts that it does indeed matter. Whence the labels I mentioned earlier: "indiscriminative" vs. "anti-indiscriminative". Notice that the anti-indiscriminative also occurs in the frame of "Chris isn't just any (old) linguist"--i.e. Chris is a linguist, but a "special" one in some contextually given sense; entirely distinct from "Chris isn't any linguist." In this context, the non-negative version, "Chris is (just) any (old) linguist", is virtually impossible. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 11 03:37:57 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:37:57 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:13 PM -0400 7/10/04, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > >then he up and died >then he upped and died > >Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I >commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is >really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the >historical present, as in narratives, thus: > >then he ups and dies > >not > >then he up and dies. > >But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with >died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in >this entry for up as a v: > >--- >b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or >boldly, >to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. >Ê >ÊÊ(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must >mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups >and says, that minute, ÔProve so!Õ 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. >Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, >Heart sunk inside me: ÔWell, pad on my prate-apace!Õ >ÊÊ >ÊÊ(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's >insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ÔMARK TWAINÕ Huck. Finn >xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. >1898 ÔH. S. MERRIMANÕ Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that >served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS >Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as >would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's >cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ÔA. GILBERTÕ Death against Clock 81 So you upped >and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote >I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no >good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we >could we upped and fled. >--- > >What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > I don't object to it either--I would expect both "up and died" and "upped and died" to be amply instantiated. The former wins the google-off, 13,000 to 294, but the latter isn't too shabby. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 03:53:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:53:30 -0400 Subject: Metcalf, Nunberg books; New Yorker & Tar Beach; Black Russian (1957) Message-ID: ALAN METCALF, GEOFFREY NUNBERG BOOKS Look out, Bill Clinton!!!!!!! (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/magazine/11ONLANGUAGE.html ON LANGUAGE Wordnerd Watch By WILLIAM SAFIRE Published: July 11, 2004 (...) To each book comes its season, and now is the time for ''Presidential Voices: Speaking Styles from George Washington to George W. Bush'' ($13 paperback, Houghton Mifflin) by Allan Metcalf, the respected philologist and longtime stalwart of the American Dialect Society. We members of the Judson Welliver Society of former White House speechwriters (Welliver was the first, for Harding and Coolidge) lap this stuff up. In a chapter on ''Presidents as Neologists'' -- words or phrases coined by or, more often, popularized by presidents -- Metcalf includes John Adams's adoption of the Algonquian word caucus; Jefferson's electioneering, countervailing and public relations; Theodore Roosevelt's lunatic fringe and probably nail jelly to the wall. F.D.R., while in college, provided the first instance of cheerleader, and Lincoln is credited with Michigander. (The author might have added Abe's ''That is cool'' in his Cooper Union speech, meaning ''ironically desirable.'' Though environed by difficulty, he was clearly ahead of his time.) President 43 coined misunderestimate and will be remembered for his embetterment of mankind. (The word-processing demon in my computer keeps trying to change that to embitterment. A preferred form of reportorial inclusion in a military unit would be embedderment.) Metcalf's work on presidential style, including passages useful to students of bloviation as well as inspiration, includes the inescapable mispronunciation of nuclear as ''nucular,'' committed by Eisenhower and George W., and as ''noo-kee-uh'' by Carter -- which brings us to: ''Going Nucular: Language, Politics and Culture in Confrontational Times'' ($19 hardcover, PublicAffairs), by Geoffrey Nunberg, professor of linguistics at Stanford. He cannot figure out why Bush keeps treating nuclear ''as if it had the same suffix as words like molecular and particular. It's the same process that turns lackadaisical into laxadaisical and chaise longue into chaise lounge.'' Nunberg's book, mainly a compilation of his commentaries on National Public Radio's ''Fresh Air,'' refreshingly deals with what is called in rhetoric polysyndeton, a word based on the Greek for ''using many connectives,'' like ''here and there and everywhere.'' He observes that the use of conjunctions rather than commas for drum-like dramatic effect is done more often by conservative writers. For every liberal Molly Ivins writing, ''We will have another surge of progressivism and reform and hell-raising and fun and justice,'' there are four or five conservatives like Peggy Noonan writing, ''You want to really feel it and experience it and smell it and touch it and thank God for it.'' (...) -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORKER (continued) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/nyregion/thecity/11ctycxn.html Correction Published: July 11, 2004 A report in the F.Y.I. column last Sunday about places in Manhattan where George Washington and other early national leaders lived credited Washington incorrectly with coining the term "New Yorker." A 1756 letter by Washington was not the first published work in which it appeared. It was used in an article in The Pennsylvania Gazette in 1746. ("Barry Popik"?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------------- TAR BEACH I told you someone asked about this. They should consult me more! (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/nyregion/thecity/11fyi.html F.Y.I. Sun but No Sand By MICHAEL POLLAK Published: July 11, 2004 Q. When did "tar beach" become part of the New York language? And is there a particular rooftop that owns the distinction of being the first so named? A. "Tar beach," as all roof rats know, is the urban alternative to the Hamptons on a hot summer day; it's as near as the flight of stairs outside the apartment door. The 1930's seem likely as a birth date, because it was around then that the suntan became fashionable for the masses. According to "The City in Slang" by Irving Lewis Allen, getting a tan on tar beach was often the preparation for a trip to Coney Island. "By the 1940's,'' he wrote, "city rooftops, those ersatz beaches, were given the fictitious place name tar beach, alluding to the black tarred and graveled rooftops." The earliest recorded appearance of the phrase in this newspaper was on Aug. 30, 1941, in an article about a man who was growing 12 ears of corn, tomato plants, green peas and radishes along with colorful blooms on his tenement rooftop at 137 East 33rd Street. The grower, William H. Geis, a rayon salesman, had decorated the place with bamboo screens, deck chairs and cocoa matting. "An Eden Is Found on East Side Roof," the headline read. But probably the quintessential Tar Beach is in the collection of the Guggenheim Museum. This one is a story quilt created by the artist Faith Ringgold, who later wrote a book based on the images called "Tar Beach." The story is about a little girl in the Harlem of the 1930's who floats over the roof of her tenement, where her parents eat, laugh and tell stories why she and her little brother lie on a mattress, dreaming that the whole city is theirs. -------------------------------------------------------------- BLACK RUSSIAN I spotted another citation and decided to re-check. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Black Russian" + "Kahlua") Sheboygan Press Friday, June 03, 1960 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...are serving a drink called the "BLACK RUSSIAN." It's a con: coction of.....vodka and KAHLUA, a ,liqueur made out of coffee.. Indiana Evening Gazette Saturday, June 04, 1960 Indiana, Pennsylvania ...are serving a drink called the "BLACK RUSSIAN." It's a concoction of.....vodka and KAHLUA, a liqueur made out of coffee.. Press Gazette Friday, September 28, 1962 Hillsboro, Ohio ...water and top with sprigs of mint. B BLACK RUSSIAN Pour: oz. Old Mr. Boston.....Vodka oz. KAHLUA (Coffee Liqueur) JJ On ice cuba.. Gettysburg Times Wednesday, August 22, 1962 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...and top with sprigs, of mint. fjTj BLACK RUSSIAN Pour: or. Old Mr. Boston.....Vodka oz. KAHLUA (Coffee Liqueur) On ice cubes in.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAN NEWSPAPERS) ("Black Russian" + "Kahlua") 1. Display Ad 26 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26, 1957. p. A8 (1 page): THE BLACK RUSSIAN IS SUBVERSIVE! It's a menace to an unhappy state of mind. Vodka and KAHLUA over ice...and goodbye to let-down and lassitude. Next time out, ask the waiter to undermine your dark mood with a BLACK RUSSIAN! (KAHLUA ad--ed.) 2. Display Ad 30 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 7, 1958. p. A8 (1 page) 3. Display Ad 35 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 10, 1958. p. A10 (1 page) 4. Display Ad 30 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 24, 1958. p. A8 (1 page) 5. Display Ad 29 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 4, 1958. p. A11 (1 page) 6. On the Town ...By Paul Herron. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 5, 1959. p. H6 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 04:40:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:40:04 -0400 Subject: Pit Master/Pitmaster (1968) Message-ID: PITMASTERS--2,270 Google hits, 168 Google Groups hits PIT MASTERS--2,740 Google hits, 35 Google Groups hits Pitmaster--not in OED Pit Master--not in OED _Prospect Park pitmasters say it's a guy's job_ --SUNDAY NEW YORK POST, Food, 11 July 2004, pages 104-105 OED is not the pits? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pitmaster"--only 8 hits) 1. THE SOCIAL WORLD.; EVENTS OF INTEREST FOLLOWING THE NEW YEAR FESTIVAL. Miss Grundy's Gleanings -- Receptions and Entertainment -- The Winter Gaieties of the Capital -- Personal Men- tion and Minor Notes. MISS GRUNDY.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 7, 1883. p. 2 (1 page) 2. NEW YORK MAIL COMES BY AIR IN NINE HOURS; First Plane Leaves at 5:15 and Arrives at 12:58. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 2, 1919. p. 11 (1 page) 3. Classified Ad 26 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 29, 1952. p. A25 (1 page) 4. Classified Ad 29 -- No Title The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 13, 1961. p. D2 (1 page) 5. WHOLE WHOG BY ELLEN FICKLEN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1986. p. SM23 (1 page) 6. Diner's Journal FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 1993. p. C27 (1 page): They have engaged a pitmaster from Kansas City, Mo., to oversee the barbecue. 7. Northern Variations on Southern Themes; In These Parts, the Quest for Tender Ribs and a Spicy Sauce Requires Stamina. It Also Pays Off. By ERIC ASIMOV. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1995. p. NJ4 (1 page): A little cautionary context: In their own way, barbecue purists are as particular as wine snobs. The meat has to be cooked over just the right kind of wood, preferably by an aged pitmaster whose meat is tender but whose accent is impenetrable. 8. EATING OUT New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1997. p. E42 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pit master"--33 hits) 1. THE WHEAT PIT'S MASTER; TWENTY-FIVE CENTS ADDED TO THE PRICE. B.P. HUTCHINSON IN FULL CONTROL IN CHIGAGO, AND PREDICTING A RISE TO $2 BY SATURDAY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1888. p. 1 (1 page) 2. BEARS ARE PIT MASTERS; ALL MARKEETS LOWER UNDER THE PRESSURE OF SELLING Range of Active Futures. Russian Gossip Bullish. Export Bids Out of Line. Weather Downs Corn Values. Big Pressure on Oats. Provisions Lose Early Support. Rye Market Is Dull. GRAIN INSPECTION. Range of Indemnities. Primary Movement. Cash Produce Transactions. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 21, 1906. p. 11 (1 page) 3. BOTH FIGHTERS IN FINE SHAPE.; Memsie and McCarthy Keep Up Their Training; Bohemian's Nose Is Mended After Bad Break; Big Workouts at the Camps of Boxers Today. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 21, 1911. p. VII9 (1 page) 4. CANADA'S INDUSTRIAL ACTS.; Disinterested Investigation Prevents Strikes. Voluntary Requests for Mediation in Trades Outside Act. Labor Unions Like Lemieux Law. CANADA'S INDUSTRIAL ACT. ETHELBERT STEWART. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 2, 1912. p. VI7 (2 pages) 5. Classified Ad 6 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1940. p. A19 (1 page) 6. Classified Ad 3 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 5, 1943. p. B8 (1 page) 7. RALLY BY GRAVELY PUTS OUT CHAPMAN; His Birdie on 22d Hole Wins in First Round of Amateur Golf at Pinehurst New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1946. p. 37 (1 page) 8. Other 37 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1957. p. C4 (1 page) 9. Classified Ad 120 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1957. p. 65 (1 page) 10. Classified Ad 17 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 16, 1958. p. R9 (1 page) 11. Classified Ad 8 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 27, 1960. p. D6 (1 page) 12. Classified Ad 939 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1963. p. R31 (1 page) 13. Classified Ad 9 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1969. p. C (1 page) 14. Display Ad 465 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 19, 1973. p. 337 (1 page) 15. Classified Ad 60 -- No Title The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 19, 1973. p. D64 (1 page) 16. Display Ad 923 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 1975. p. 218 (1 page) 17. Other 6 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1979. p. E2 (1 page) 18. Classified Ad 48 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 30, 1980. p. K14 (1 page) 19. Classified Ad 12 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 5, 1983. p. D12 (1 page) 20. Classified Ad 3 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 6, 1987. p. B9 (1 page) 21. Classified Ad 23 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 7, 1987. p. G32 (1 page) 22. Classified Ad 63 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1988. p. R26 (1 page) 23. Display Ad 134 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 25, 1990. p. E17 (1 page) 24. $25 and Under Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 8, 1992. p. C23 (1 page): He is a 55-year-old Briton who is a hairdresser by training but a pit man by choice, and has unorthodox ideas about where to open restaurants. (...) In Texas, the barbecuing meat of choice is beef brisket, and brisket is the savory evidence of the pit master's skill at Stick to Your Ribs. 25. Sealing in the Flavor With Aromatic Blends of Secret Rubs By JOHN WILLOUGHBY and CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 1, 1993. p. C3 (1 page) 26. $25 and Under Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 22, 1994. p. C21 (1 page) 27. Barbecue: The (Unwritten) Lore of the Land By JOHN WILLOUGHBY And CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 18, 1994. p. C3 (1 page) 28. Classified Ad 50 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1994. p. W5 (1 page) 29. Giving Dinner a Long, Lazy Day in the Oven; Dinner's Long, Lazy Day in the Oven By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 28, 1998. p. F1 (2 pages) 30. Can't Wait Till Summer to Barbecue? Read On; Slow cooking, a low flame and liquid smoke do the trick. By JOHN WILLOUGHBY and CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 17, 1999. p. F3 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("pit masters") Appleton Post Crescent Wednesday, January 12, 1921 Appleton, Wisconsin ...match will be particularly Init will PIT MASTERS and the scissors hold.....wrestling team a powerful blow to the PIT of the stomach last night when.. Newark Advocate Monday, September 16, 1968 Newark, Ohio ...Robert L. Greenwell will be barbecue PIT MASTERS Sunday while Jaycee sub.. Newark Advocate Friday, September 20, 1968 Newark, Ohio ...when the first chickens turned out by PIT MASTERS Barley Oiler and Rob ert.. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Legends of Texas barbecue : recipes and recollections from the pit masters / Author: Walsh, Robb. Publication: San Francisco, Calif. : Andover : Chronicle ; Ragged Bears, 2002 Document: English : Book From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 05:55:39 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:55:39 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ---Walt Whitman Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) I e-mailed the SUN that the quote surely has the wrong date. I told them that the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE is available, free, full-text online. Also, the first baseball game was not on June 19,1846--the EAGLE has 1845! Of course, there was no response and no correction. The quotation is quite popular on web. It's been everywhere from Ken Burns's BASEBALL to the halls of Congress to some publication called "A Way With Words" by Dave Wilton. "Baseball" is a clue. It would be "base ball" in 1846. There is a baseball citation in 1889, but it's different! Help us, Fred Shapiro! (GOOGLE) http://federalistnavy.com/poetry/WALTWHITMAN1819-1892hall/messages/119.html Posted by Lord Dragon on April 20, 19103 at 10:09:31: In Reply to: "I see great things in baseball." posted by Montgomery Evans on June 17, 1998 at 10:17:31: It's from With Walt Whitman in Camden by Horace Traubel, vol.4, 508 (GOOGLE) [PDF] A Way With Words, April 2002, Vol. 1, No. 2File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat ... terms gives the first known use, notes on usage, and quotations of actual ... Baseball fans will enjoy the historical minutiae that he in- cludes, and wordsmiths ... www.wordorigins.org/AWWW1-2.pdf - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Archive-Name: gov/us/fed/congress/record/1999/jun/24/1999CRH4881C [Congressional Record: June 24, 1999 (House)] [Page H4881] >From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [DOCID:cr24jn99-89] BASEBALL The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Jones) is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. JONES of North Carolina. Mr. Speaker, America has a long-standing fascination with baseball. Perhaps only apple pie and the American flag can compete with its association to this country. And with good reason. Baseball, like many team sports, is beloved in part because of the unity it brings to our nation's communities. Poet Walt Whitman once wrote, ``I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. (It will) repair these losses and be a blessing to us.'' : Would anyone happen to know the source of this quote from Whitman? : "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous dyspeptic set. Repair these losses and be a blessing to us." WITH WALT WHITMAN IN CAMDEN January 21 to April 7, 1889 by Horace Traubel Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press 1953 VOLUME FOUR Pg. 508 (Sunday, April 7, 1889): I said: "Baseball is the hurrah game of the republic!" He was hilarious: "That's beautiful: the hurrah game! well--it's our game: that's the chief fact in connection with it: America's game: has the snap, go fling, of the American atmosphere--belongs as much to our institutions, fits into them as significantly, as our constitutions, laws: is just as important in the sum total of our historic life." From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 11 12:07:23 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:07:23 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could the spellings we find historically and the pronunciations which actually occur be at odds here? For "He upped and died," /hi^p?mdaId/ is my ordinary pronunciation (where ^ is wedge and ? is a glottal stop, the latter perhaps coarticularted with the [p]). I cannot detect any [t] realization of the preterit here since the [?] would have eat it up. On the other hand "He ups and dies," is less likely to be reduced to /hi^pmdaIz/ because the consonant cluster reduction which takes place in /pt/ is less likely in /ps/, since /p/ and /s/ do not share the feature [+stop]. Of course, we can never be sure when phonology does not turn around and bite us in the butt so that our underlying representations change (as larry has so elegantly shown us recently with our spitting images). dInIs >On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > >then he up and died >then he upped and died > >Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I >commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is >really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the >historical present, as in narratives, thus: > >then he ups and dies > >not > >then he up and dies. > >But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with >died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in >this entry for up as a v: > >--- >b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or >boldly, >to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. >Ê >ÊÊ(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must >mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups >and says, that minute, ÔProve so!Õ 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. >Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, >Heart sunk inside me: ÔWell, pad on my prate-apace!Õ >ÊÊ >ÊÊ(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's >insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ÔMARK TWAINÕ Huck. Finn >xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. >1898 ÔH. S. MERRIMANÕ Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that >served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS >Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as >would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's >cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ÔA. GILBERTÕ Death against Clock 81 So you upped >and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote >I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no >good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we >could we upped and fled. >--- > >What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > >Bethany From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 17:56:19 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:56:19 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Barry, Nice catch. Newspaperarchive, which I'm sure you used, can only find a listing from a Cleveland sportswriter from 1989. Maybe, like the "sunscreen" commencement address wrongly attributed to Vonnegut a few years ago, it's a modern concoction, but sounds like something Whitman would have written. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:55 AM Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. > ---Walt Whitman > Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 > (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 11 18:31:50 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:31:50 -0700 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <001001c46770$5eccba90$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:56 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > > Barry, > > Nice catch. > > Newspaperarchive, which I'm sure you used, can only find a listing from a > Cleveland sportswriter from 1989. > > Maybe, like the "sunscreen" commencement > address wrongly attributed to Vonnegut a few years ago, it's a modern > concoction, but sounds like something Whitman would have written. > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:55 AM > Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > > > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It > will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large > physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, > dyspeptic set. > Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. > > ---Walt Whitman > > Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 > > (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) > The quote is in the 1988 movie "Bull Durham" (Susan Sarandon as narrator quotes Whitman at the end of the film), so the idea that Whitman said it is at least a year older than what's in Newspaperarchive. If Whitman actually said it, the "repair this losses" phrase suggests that it dates to around the end of the Civil War, ca. 1865. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 18:44:31 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:44:31 EDT Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS by Paul Dickson 1991 Pg. 468: WHITMAN, WALT "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us." --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his _Baseball: An Informal History_ "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing 'base,' a certain game of ball." --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) (No date at all given for the first one, but I'd say the July 23, 1846 _Brooklyn Eagle_ has got to be wrong--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 18:57:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it can now be traced at least to 1969. Sucks that my libraries are closed today. SC From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will > take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger > physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. dyspeptic set. Repair > these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his _Baseball: An Informal History_ From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 19:09:23 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:09:23 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: We also know that (John) Douglass Wallop III(1920-1985) wrote "Damn Yankees." He evidently was a fantasy/cum science fiction writer. I can't wait for someone to read his book and find out his source for the quote. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it can > now be traced at least to 1969. > Sucks that my libraries are closed today. > SC From pds at VISI.COM Sun Jul 11 22:34:08 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:34:08 -0500 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <20040711183056.D1A6A51EC@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The Sarandon character concludes her quotation of Whitman with a quotation of Casey Stengel: "You can look it up." Years go I took that challenge, and finally found the passage, if I recall correctly, in Whitman's diaries. I do not recall the date, but I think that if it had been pre-Civil War I would have noticed. Anyway, if no one beats me to it, I'll attempt to repeat my search when I have a chance. --Tom Kysilko At 7/11/2004 11:31 AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >The quote is in the 1988 movie "Bull Durham" (Susan Sarandon as narrator >quotes Whitman at the end of the film), so the idea that Whitman said it is >at least a year older than what's in Newspaperarchive. > >If Whitman actually said it, the "repair this losses" phrase suggests that >it dates to around the end of the Civil War, ca. 1865. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 11 22:50:06 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:50:06 -0400 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >>U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >>Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >>/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >>'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) >> >>The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. >> >>/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. >> >>I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >>with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? Conjectures are easy to come by, I guess. Reasonable ones are more difficult. When were the Algonquian words in question first used? In particular, did any of these words predate the term of President Madison? -- Doug Wilson From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 11 23:00:29 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:00:29 -0700 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) Message-ID: According to http://www.geocities.com/americanpresidencynet/cabinet.htm, the ninth cabinet was formed in 1919. If the Vice-President is counted as one of the ten people, you still go back to only 1903. If you count the president, vice-president, three secretaries at Washington's time and the five Supremes (http://www.supremecourthistory.org/02_history/subs_timeline/02_a.html), you get a total of ten. Perhaps something along these lines, though determining the exact people represented might be difficult... Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us -----Original Message----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Sent: Jul 11, 2004 3:50 PM >>The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >>U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >>Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >>/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >>'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) >> >>The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. >> >>/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. >> >>I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >>with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? Conjectures are easy to come by, I guess. Reasonable ones are more difficult. When were the Algonquian words in question first used? In particular, did any of these words predate the term of President Madison? From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 12 11:32:32 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:32:32 -0700 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040710132529.02f38e90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I'm a member of a large church with eight associate pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one first lady--the wife of the pastor. "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:Question: in a large church which has multiple pastors, is only the chief pastor's wife called "first lady"? Is there a "second first lady"? Or a "second lady"? -- Doug Wilson Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Jul 12 12:23:17 2004 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:23:17 -0400 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040709011448.02f4ceb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson Found in the comments on the Groklaw website: Scientificky Wild Assumptions and Guesses bkd From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 12 14:46:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <20040712113232.38149.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >first lady--the wife of the pastor. > What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) Larry From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:04:56 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:04:56 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: The NYTimes had an obituary on July 10, 2004, p. B18. I have sent the editor the letter below in response. Let's see whether it gets printed. "Living as we do during a time when vulgarity is too commonplace to ever astonish, it was very cruel of the Times to tantalize birdwatchers and other readers by telling them that "a breathtakingly vulgar synonym for 'kestrel' can be found in the W's" in the supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary. Many libraries will not even have the supplement anymore, since its contents have been incorporated into the 20 volume 2nd edition, where the Ws fill many hundred pages, and if the supplement should be at hand, the Ws must still fill at least several hundred pages. Surely you could have given the hint that the word begins with "wind" -- that must be news that would be fit to print. Then to say that it is a ten-letter word? Perhaps even to suggest that to buy a "u" would prove a fruitful investment? Responsible journalism requires no less." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2004 4:40 pm Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's > London Times. > From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:16:22 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:16:22 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First Gentleman," even in his web address: http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ dInIs >At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >> >What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:36:47 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:36:47 -0400 Subject: "checking the mail" Message-ID: >From an article in the NYTimes of July 11, 2004 (City Section, p. 7, col. 1)on a stray dog: "The dog is often spotted by residents in the morning, right around commuting time. It ambles up an avenue, sniffing bushes where other dogs have marked -- "checking the mail," as they say in dog parlance." Is this expression commonly used in people parlance? I have cats, myself. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:50:47 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:50:47 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:16 AM -0400 7/12/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >Gentleman," even in his web address: >http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ > >dInIs Interesting. We have our second married female governor in my memory in CT, and neither husband was or is so designated, as far as I know. The husband of the female minister at our Unitarian-Universalist society is also not "first gentleman", but I would predict based on general properties of the UU (non-)creed that when a male Unitarian minister is married, his wife (or husband, as the case may be) is likewise undesignated as first whatever. L > >>At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >>> >>What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >>label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >>husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >>is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >>gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) >> >>Larry > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:57:02 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:57:02 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Barry writes: Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American > game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give > them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. > dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his > _Baseball: An Informal History_ > > "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of > Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing > 'base,' a certain > game of ball." > --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 > (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) > > > (No date at all given for the first one, but I'd say the July 23, 1846 > _Brooklyn Eagle_ has got to be wrong--ed.) > A search of the Brooklyn Eagle database for "perambulations" turns up the second passage from July 23, 1846, p. 2. I'm quite sure that the first quotation is from late in Whitman's life, probably from his conversations with Horace Traubel at his home in Camden, N. J. I will try to check further. The Eagle shows hundreds of occurences of "dyspeptic" from the 1840s, but only three of "stoicism", none this. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jul 12 16:01:52 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:01:52 -0500 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 11:16 AM -0400 7/12/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >>Gentleman," even in his web address: >>http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ >> >>dInIs > >Interesting. We have our second married female governor in my memory >in CT, and neither husband was or is so designated, as far as I know. >The husband of the female minister at our Unitarian-Universalist >society is also not "first gentleman", but I would predict based on >general properties of the UU (non-)creed that when a male Unitarian >minister is married, his wife (or husband, as the case may be) is >likewise undesignated as first whatever. Being a life-long Unitarian, and hanging out with Unitarian-Universalist ministers in the making, I would heartily agree. Barbara >L > >> >>>At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>>>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>>>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>>>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >>>> >>>What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >>>label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >>>husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >>>is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >>>gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) >>> >>>Larry >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:49:51 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:49:51 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: <200407101513.1bJq6z2bO3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: upped/up? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > > then he up and died > then he upped and died > > Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I > commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. > What is > really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the > historical present, as in narratives, thus: > > then he ups and dies > > not > > then he up and dies. > > But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with > died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances > in > this entry for up as a v: > > --- > b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or > boldly, > to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. > Ê > ÊÊ(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he > must > mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us > ups > and says, that minute, ÔProve so!Õ 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. > Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, > Heart sunk inside me: ÔWell, pad on my prate-apace!Õ > ÊÊ > ÊÊ(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's > insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ÔMARK TWAINÕ Huck. > Finn > xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. > 1898 ÔH. S. MERRIMANÕ Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that > served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. > CUMMINGS > Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as > would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's > cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ÔA. GILBERTÕ Death against Clock 81 So you > upped > and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote > I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It > did no > good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we > could we upped and fled. > --- > > What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > > Bethany > "Upped and died" is what works for me. Reminds of a debate among us GI's back in the early 'Sixties as to whether (a) "Smith is re-upping" or (b) "Smith is reing-up" was "correct." For me, (a) was so clearly the proper form that I could not believe that there were people who felt exactly as strongly that (b) had to be the proper form. But there were. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:50:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:28 -0400 Subject: Another "upped/up" controversy Message-ID: In the early 'Sixties, when I was in the Army, there were many almost-coming-to-blows discussions in the barracks wrt to the verb "to re(-)up," meaning "to re-enlist." The argument had to do with whether one should say (a) "John Doe is re-upping/re-upped/has re-upped" or (b) "John Doe is ?reing/re'ing? up/?reed/re'd? up/has ?reed/re'd? up." Some GI's, including me, considered it to be so "obvious" that the "correct" form was (a) that discussion should have been pointless. And it would have been pointless, had not other GI's believed just as strongly that it was "obvious" that (b) had to be the "correct" form. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:50:41 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:41 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <200407111209.1bJJHA34x3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: Shouldn't that be "fantasy/science-fiction writer"? -Wilson Gray On Jul 11, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We also know that (John) Douglass Wallop III(1920-1985) wrote "Damn > Yankees." He evidently was a fantasy/cum science fiction writer. I > can't > wait for someone to read his book and find out his source for the > quote. > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:57 PM > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > >> Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it >> can >> now be traced at least to 1969. >> Sucks that my libraries are closed today. >> SC > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:51:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <200407120805.1bK2mP7dr3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a motherfucker," as we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention to the letters to the editor. -Wilson Gray On Jul 12, 2004, at 11:04 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The NYTimes had an obituary on July 10, 2004, p. B18. I have sent the > editor the letter below in response. Let's see whether it gets > printed. > > "Living as we do during a time when vulgarity is too commonplace to > ever astonish, it was very cruel of the Times to tantalize > birdwatchers and other readers by telling them that "a breathtakingly > vulgar synonym for 'kestrel' can be found in the W's" in the > supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary. Many libraries will not > even have the supplement anymore, since its contents have been > incorporated into the 20 volume 2nd edition, where the Ws fill many > hundred pages, and if the supplement should be at hand, the Ws must > still fill at least several hundred pages. Surely you could have > given the hint that the word begins with "wind" -- that must be news > that would be fit to print. Then to say that it is a ten-letter word? > Perhaps even to suggest that to buy a "u" would prove a fruitful > investment? Responsible journalism requires no less." > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2004 4:40 pm > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > >> See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's >> London Times. >> > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 12 21:44:20 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:44:20 -0400 Subject: "Cracker" in Early Encounters in North America Message-ID: 1. S6279 (p.207), raisins, Indian corn, peas, crackers or sea biscuits, and tobacco; 2. S2848 (p.66)ked, about the size of a large cracker, but much thicker; this he put 3. S2833 (p.189)s a little tea, rice, fruits, crackers, etc., suffice very well for t 4. S2833 (p.190)ar, and a little salt. Beans, crackers, and trifles of that descripti 5. S2833 (p.254) wagoner must tie a bran new `cracker' to the lash of his whip; for, 6. S3224 (p.382)aggage. Found our biscuit and crackers almost all ruined. Put off at 7. S7427 (p.16)nsolence of the lower classes. Crackers. Wreck of the Jonah. New crew. 8. S2745 (p.na)rors warriors against the Bone Cracker, and drove him at th epoint of 9. S2832 (p.148)ulders. They then touched the crackers with a lighted match. Words wo 10. S7232 (p.174)he head of a barrel of fresh crackers, and opened a barrel each of b 11. S7232 (p.469)food he would ever taste, of crackers, &c., in the store, where we h -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results Bibliography Bertrand, M., fl. 1610, Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents, vol. 4. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: Burrows Brothers, 1901, pp. 272. [Bibliographic Details] Buttrick, Tilly, 1783-, Early Western Travels, vol. 8: Buttrick's Voyages, 1812-1819, Evan's Pedestrious tour, 1818. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 364. [Bibliographic Details] Ogden, George W., fl. 1821, Early Western Travels, vol. 19: Ogden's Letters from the West, 1821-1823: Bullock's Journey from New Orleans to New York, 1827, Part I of Gregg's Commerce of the Prairies, 1831-1839. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 349. [Bibliographic Details] Pike, Zebulon Montgomery, 1779-1813, The Expeditions of Zebulon Montgomery Pike, to Headwaters of the Mississippi River, Through Louisiana Territory, and in New Spain, During the years 1805-6-7, Vol. II. Coues, Elliott. New York, NY: F.P. Harper, 1895, pp. 504. [Bibliographic Details] Lescarbot, Marc, 1565(?)-1629(?), The History of New France, vol 2.. Toronto, ON: The Chaplain Society, 1911, pp. 584. [Bibliographic Details] Anonymous Male Cherokee, fl. April 1832, Historical. In Cherokee Phoenix & Indians' Advocate, April 14, 1832. Not indicated, Not indicated, 1832. pp. 2. [Bibliographic Details] Pattie, James Ohio, 1804(?)-1850(?), Early Western Travels, vol. 18: Pattie's Personal Narrative, 1824-1830: Willard's Inland trade with New Mexico, 1825: Downfall of the Fredonian Republic: Malte-Brun's Account of Mexico. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 379. [Bibliographic Details] Hobbs, James, 1819-, Wild Life in the Far West: Personal Adventures of a Border Mountain Man. Hartford, CT: Wiley, Waterman & Eaton, 1872, pp. 488. [Bibliographic Details] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 22:01:43 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:01:43 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: The OED online has 5 citations for "windhover" = kestrel, starting with 1674 and not including Hopkins; it has only one citation for "windfucker" = kestrel, and that is Thomas Nashe, from 1599, though it has 4 citations for a second meaning, "a term of opprobrium" when applied to people, all between 1602 and 1616. So if "windhover" is a euphemism, it doesn't originate with Hopkins. Despite the fact that Nashe's quotation is about 75 years the earliest, perhaps "windfucker" is an obscenification. Although, thinking about it, the position that small hovering birds put themselves into when they hover somewhat resembles the position the male bird takes when copulating -- he kneels on the female's back and reaches his lower abdomen past and under her tail until the opening of his cloaca touches the opening of hers, and sometimes he has to move his wings back and forth for balance. If Nashe had a dirty mind, and he did, the similarity might have suggested the name. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:51 pm Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not > the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the > "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have > come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion > of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. > Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the > Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a > motherfucker," as > we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention > to the letters to the editor. > > -Wilson Gray > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 22:24:23 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:24:23 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: The July 23, 1846 passage from the Brooklyn Eagle is reprinted as Whitman's in vol. 1, of the collecton of his journalism in the Collected Writings of Walt Whitman, Peter Lang, 1998, p. 477. The editor of this collection supposes that all editorial matter in the Eagle is by Whitman if it is not otherwise attributed there. I haven't been able to locate the other passage in Horace Traubel's With Walt Whitman in Camden. Traubel's notes on his conversations with Whitman were published in 9 volumes over a 90 (!) year period, and Bobst doesn't have a complete set. Gary Smigdall, in Intimate with Walt, [selections from Traubel's notes], has a different but similar passage from a conversation of early April, 1889, reading in part, "it's our game: that's the chief fact in connection with it: America's game: has the snap, go, fling, of the American atmosphere" This is on p. 261 of Smigdall's book, and from vol. 4, p. 508 of Traubel's volumes. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:44 pm Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American > game. It will > take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a > larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. > dyspeptic set. Repair > these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his > _Baseball: An > Informal History_ > > "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of > Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing > 'base,' a certain > game of ball." > --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 > (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 12 22:45:02 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:45:02 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: CRACKERS--This was intended for ASmith--, not ADS--. You type the "A"and AOL automatically continues the address. I've been going through Early Encounters in North America, a database not at NYPL or NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- WHITMAN Maybe I'll just ask the Walt Whitman list? No need to go crazy; I mean, Fred Shapiro doesn't pay me enough for this stuff. BASEBALL: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY nqarrative by Geoffrey C. Ward based on a documentary filmscript by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994 Pg. xvii: Well, it's our game; that the chief fact in connection with it; America's game; it has the snap, go, fling of the American atmosphere; it belongs as much to our institutions, fits into them as significantly as our Constitution's laws; is just as important in the sum total of our historic life. --Walt Whitman (No date or source--ed.) Pg. 3: I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. --Walt Whitman, 1846 (No source--ed.) BASE BALL: AN INFORMAL HISTORY by Douglass Wallop New York: W. W. Norton & Company, Inc. 1969 Pg. 119: And in his frontal attack, in which he called baseball "somewhat less exciting than a spelling bee," Louis Graves struck a mighty blow for those who hoped, even at such a late date, that baseball might somehow be headed off. (...) He was competing against the greater voice of Walt Whitman, who said: "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill (Pg. 120--ed.) them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relive us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair our losses, and be a blessing to us." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 00:19:17 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:19:17 EDT Subject: COMPLETELY OT: "Secret Life of Popcorn" on Food Network tonight Message-ID: Why are these shows so bad? Why is journalism so bad? I'll probably watch it because it's so bad, but this is ridiculous. For those who don't know, Andy Smith (where the "crackers" post was intended to be sent) wrote the book on popcorn. But who reads books? Can't the Food Network even steal anymore? Barry Popik (Who must note that, after this ridiculous "popcorn" show tonight, WHAT'S HOT! WHAT'S COOL! at 10;30 p.m. features the equally ridiculous "naked sushi.") (FOOD NETWORK) The Secret Life Of Episode SF1A05 AIR TIMES: July 11, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 12, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT July 12, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 13, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT July 17, 2004 5:00 PM ET/PT July 18, 2004 4:00 PM ET/PT July 23, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 24, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT Secret Life of Popcorn When you think of the movies you think of popcorn. But its history can be traced back hundreds of thousands of years to prehistoric cave dwellers. Popcorn was present in 1620 at the first Thanksgiving, served as the basis for the very first breakfast cereal and boomed as a cheap affordable snack during The Great Depression. From: ASmith1946 (asmith1946 at aol.com) Subject: Culinary Fakelore View: Complete Thread (16 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.food.historic Date: 2001-03-14 11:46:29 PST (...) Another example is theassociation of popcorn with the Pilgrims at the "First Thanksgiving" in 1621,when there is no evidence that popcorn was grown or consumed in North America until the beginning of the nineteenth century. C) Political correctness or historical revisionism stories: undocumented attribution of foods to non-white males. African-American scientist GeorgeWashington Carver is frequently credited with inventing peanut butter, eventhough he made no such claim himself and peanut butter had been a commercialproduct for twenty years before Carver became interested in peanuts. Alternately, numerous sources have claimed that Native Americans introduced popcorn to colonial Americans, yet no evidence has surfaced indicating thatNative Americans possessed popcorn prior to the nineteenth century. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:31:16 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:31:16 -0700 Subject: the safirean collective Message-ID: is it too much to ask that bill safire get it together on the terminology front? i mean, it's not like there are a great many grammatical terms that have made it into (more or less) common usage, but "collective noun" is one, and safire (in his sunday 7/11/04 column) just transmits bill walsh's misuse of this term for "mass noun": [quotation from walsh] "acknowledge that _data_ is a collective noun, like _information_"; [quotation from safire, paraphrasing walsh] "[Walsh] holds that ["media"] is usually used by people as a collective singular". collective nouns include: group, committee, troupe, pride [of lions], etc. grammatically, these are are count nouns, pluralizable as: groups, committees, troupes, prides [of lions], etc. mass nouns include: information, rice, hair 'head of hair', pride (as in "much pride"), etc. grammatically, these are not pluralizable except in special uses: *informations, *rices, *hairs 'heads of hair', *prides (as in "many prides"). this is baby-level english-structure stuff, and *very* long-standing terminology. why do people (like walsh and safire) who propose to treat the details of english usage so meticulously, carefully distinguishing between one kind of locution and another, treat grammatical terminology in this ignorantly ham-fisted fashion? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) [note: since i am calling people out on errors here, let me say that if there are typos in the above message -- lord knows i've tried to catch them, but i am fallible -- i should note that i do all my own research, type every character that comes out under my name (except material marked as coming from other sources), here and everywhere else, and have a largely nonfunctioning right ulnar nerve, which means a significantly nonfunctional right hand, so that this typing is perilous and fallible. i say this to protect myself from people who might attack me by pointing out *my* errors: "why, zwicky can't even spell 'ignorantly'!" (it was "ignoratly" the first time around, and the whole message was littered with extra characters accidentally provided by my poor drooping right index finger.).] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:36:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:36:45 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >larry, > >Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >Gentleman," even in his web address: >http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ > >dInIs > And for those interested in the background to Mr. Mulhern's assumption of the title, he offers the explanation below. (Seems to me he wants to have it both ways--striving to be a traditional gentleman on the one hand, and opting for "Dan" as his "preferred moniker" from strangers on the other.) Larry, who admits to not having native intuition on this one. ================== What's in a Name? While doing research on integrity, I stumbled across a 104 year old essay by a John MacLaren that answered the question, "What is a Gentleman?" It's wonderfully written, so click on the link [http://ourworld.cs.com/bobbynorthlake/gentleman.html#top ] if you're interested. Mr. MacLaren's essay prompted me to put on this public site the reason why I chose the title "First Gentleman." Initially, when people asked me what they should call me I said, "call me Dan," and that remains my preferred moniker. But after being asked repeatedly, I decided if a title was in order, why not call me "the first gentleman." I chose this title for a few reasons. First, other male spouses had already claimed the fun names: first hunk, first dude, and first coach. Seriously, I learned from my Irish grandmother's repeated instructions, that gentleman meant something, and most important it meant that you showed respect to ladies, and a special fidelity to your lady. I am proud and humbled to serve my wife. As "first lady" connotes a respect for her husband and her governor, it seems like "first gentleman" is an appropriate mirror image that conveys respect to the leader of the state. Second, I chose the title with the thought that it might help to inject this word back into our vocabulary. I think all men should strive to be "gentlemen," a word, and perhaps therefore a style, that has unfortunately lost meaning in our culture. We have lost appreciation for the humility and civility that the word connotes. So, I see the title as something I try to earn every day, by showing respect to my elders, love for my wife, kindness to children. Mr. MacLaren says it so much better than I. I hope you'll read his thoughts -- more potent today than at the outset of the 20th century. - Daniel Granholm Mulhern - First Gentleman From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:37:31 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:37:31 -0700 Subject: the safirean collective In-Reply-To: <5558AF66-D46C-11D8-AEAB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2004, at 6:31 PM, i wrote, alas: > ... the whole > message was littered with extra characters accidentally provided by my > poor drooping right index finger.).] ... "right little finger"... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 03:36:08 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:36:08 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit nouveau.) Larry From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Tue Jul 13 03:51:48 2004 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:51:48 -0700 Subject: "checking the mail" In-Reply-To: <200407121536.i6CFasGr021055@drizzle.com> Message-ID: >Is this expression commonly used in people parlance? I have cats, myself. My wife and I have friends in Portland, OR, who regularly referred to their dog as "checking her pee-mail." Their phrase was definitely a pun on e-mail, and dates to the '90s. I was under the impression that they'd coined the phrase themselves, but I don't really know -- I'm a cat person, too. -- James Callan copywriter Seattle, WA From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Jul 13 08:15:26 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:15:26 +0100 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote > I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC > on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue > is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte > acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has > fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the > animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and > left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm > the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set > in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit > nouveau.) It sounds remarkably unlikely to me. I checked the complete Project Gutenberg Galsworthy files and there is no instance of "upped" in this sense (though there are two of "thin-upped", which from context looks like an uncorrected OCR misreading of "thin-lipped"). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 10:34:12 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:34:12 EDT Subject: Wag Message-ID: In my experience "SWAG" has always stood for "Scientific Wild-Ass Guess". The irony of combining "scientific" and "guess" makes this derivation much more forceful (and in my opinion much more likely) than such combinations as "simple wild-ass guess". Also in my experience "SWAG" has been much more common than "WAG". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 10:52:54 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:52:54 EDT Subject: question Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official hostess of the United States government, which means she is the woman who does the formal welcoming of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of State, hosts an official event (e.g. a state dinner). If the President is male and married, then by default his wife acts as First Lady. If the President is male and single, then some female relative acts as First Lady. When the bachelor James Buchanan was President, his niece Harriet Lane acted as First Lady. So what happens should we have a female President? At official functions she will be the First Lady, as well as Head of State, Chief Executive, and Commander-in-Chief. Furthermore, if she is married, her husband will act as the official host at official functions. Undoubtedly many journalists will use the title "First Gentleman", but we will have to wait and see whether it catches on. - James A. Landau From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 13 11:38:16 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:38:16 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: From: Margaret Lee : I'm a member of a large church with eight associate pastors/ministers : (four of whom are women), but there's only one first lady--the wife : of the pastor. In the Mormon church, the leader of a congregation is always male and has (in most cases) the title "Bishop". Although being married is a de facto requirement for being a bishop, i've never heard a title for a bishop's wife other than "the bishop's wife". Getting back to governors, Utah's current (though lame-duck) first female governor, Olene S. Walker, is married to Myron Walker, who is "First Gentleman", like in Michigan. (To make up for the to my ears diseuphonious title, he has one of the coolest-looking governor's mansions in the country to entertain in.) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 14:15:08 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:15:08 -0400 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <40F3A82E.23215.34C093@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:15 AM +0100 7/13/04, Michael Quinion wrote: >Laurence Horn wrote > >> I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >> nouveau.) > >It sounds remarkably unlikely to me. I checked the complete Project >Gutenberg Galsworthy files and there is no instance of "upped" in >this sense (though there are two of "thin-upped", which from context >looks like an uncorrected OCR misreading of "thin-lipped"). > Ah, OK. An anachronism in the adaptation, then. (Actually a double one; in subsequent dialogue, Soames relates to Fleur that Jon had "upped and gone", using the participial form of the verb "to up" in the serial construction.) larry From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 13 14:43:21 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:43:21 -0700 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <1c1.1b913077.2e251906@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:53 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: question > > When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is > the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official > hostess of the United > States government, which means she is the woman who does the > formal welcoming > of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of > State, hosts an > official event (e.g. a state dinner). I would disagree with this. Were a bachelor to be elected president, the press would be filled with articles about how the White House would be run without a "First Lady." The film "The American President," about a widowed president falling in love, makes numerous uses of "First Lady" to mean the wife of the president. (One has to resort to fictional or hypothetical usages to gauge modern usage because we haven't had an unmarried president since Wilson.) Both Safire's "New Political Dictionary" and the OED gloss "First Lady" as the wife of the president. The position is unofficial, so she can't be the "official hostess." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 14:44:18 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <1c1.1b913077.2e251906@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:52 AM -0400 7/13/04, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 >Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) > >When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is >the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official hostess >of the United >States government, which means she is the woman who does the formal welcoming >of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of State, hosts an >official event (e.g. a state dinner). > >If the President is male and married, then by default his wife acts as First >Lady. If the President is male and single, then some female relative acts as >First Lady. When the bachelor James Buchanan was President, his niece Harriet >Lane acted as First Lady. > >So what happens should we have a female President? At official functions she >will be the First Lady, as well as Head of State, Chief Executive, and >Commander-in-Chief. Furthermore, if she is married, her husband >will act as the >official host at official functions. Undoubtedly many journalists >will use the >title "First Gentleman", but we will have to wait and see whether it >catches on. > I beg to differ, at least in part. By saying 'it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is the wife of the President', you are taking "First Lady" to be a technical term, whose definition is given by experts in the relevant field. (Cf. Putnam on the division of linguistic labor.) I'm not sure this is tenable, at least for the normal use of the expression. For the vast majority of speakers, I'd wager, the wife of a male President, Governor, etc. who declines to serve as hostess* is nevertheless First Lady, simply by virtue of being married to the executive in question. And a female President (or Governor, etc.) is not (also) First Lady. There may well be a technical sense or context in which your definition (on which hostess role trumps spouse status) is respected, but it appears that such a sense is not directly reflected in current dictionary entries; thus the AHD4 has: The wife or hostess of the chief executive of a country, state, or city. This disjunction does indeed allow for a gap-filler in the case of unmarried male executives with non-wife hostesses, but also encompasses non-hostess wives for what I take to be "faute de mieux" situations of the Buchanan type. At the same time, it excludes (correctly, I would submit) female executives who serve as hostesses in their spare time. Further, it is because the spouse-of-[presupposed-male]-chief-executive is the standard denotation of "First Lady" that the "First Gentleman" title was analogically derived. Larry *One example might be Abigail Bartlet of "The West Wing" who is not a "hostess" in the traditional sense but is indeed "First Lady" and referred to as such. Of course, all of this presupposes we know what it means to be "an official hostess". From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 13 16:22:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:22:54 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <200407121501.1bK8RW2F93NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: Unfortunately, having grown up in a house whose backyard was a chicken yard, I am only too familiar with the manner in which (some) birds copulate. Given that the first thing that a rooster does after finishing with a chicken is to kick that chicken aside with his spurs, I long imagined that it was this brutal dismissal of the female partner immediately after the climax of the sex act that had given rise to the verb "spurn," despite that fact that the cliche is, "_she_ spurned _his_ advances." -Wilson Gray On Jul 12, 2004, at 6:01 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The OED online has 5 citations for "windhover" = kestrel, starting > with 1674 and not including Hopkins; it has only one citation for > "windfucker" = kestrel, and that is Thomas Nashe, from 1599, though it > has 4 citations for a second meaning, "a term of opprobrium" when > applied to people, all between 1602 and 1616. > So if "windhover" is a euphemism, it doesn't originate with Hopkins. > Despite the fact that Nashe's quotation is about 75 years the > earliest, perhaps "windfucker" is an obscenification. Although, > thinking about it, the position that small hovering birds put > themselves into when they hover somewhat resembles the position the > male bird takes when copulating -- he kneels on the female's back and > reaches his lower abdomen past and under her tail until the opening of > his cloaca touches the opening of hers, and sometimes he has to move > his wings back and forth for balance. If Nashe had a dirty mind, and > he did, the similarity might have suggested the name. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:51 pm > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > >> Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not >> the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the >> "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have >> come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion >> of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. >> Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the >> Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a >> motherfucker," as >> we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention >> to the letters to the editor. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 13 17:29:54 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:29:54 -0400 Subject: "checking the mail" Message-ID: James Callan writes: >>> My wife and I have friends in Portland, OR, who regularly referred to their dog as "checking her pee-mail." Their phrase was definitely a pun on e-mail, and dates to the '90s. I was under the impression that they'd coined the phrase themselves, but I don't really know -- I'm a cat person, too. <<< I use the same pun myself, and I coined it independently. I don't think I have ever written it out before, but I think of it as "P-mail". I don't think of myself as either a dog person or a cat person. I like cats but I'm allergic to them; otherwise we might have one. And cats are extremely fond of me, as they are of all people who are allergic to them. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jul 13 17:52:11 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:52:11 -0400 Subject: English Dialect Dictionary Message-ID: Does anyone know whether the English Dialect Dictionary has been digitized? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 13 17:55:29 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:55:29 -0400 Subject: English Dialect Dictionary In-Reply-To: <27b2f3c27b482e.27b482e27b2f3c@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 01:52:11PM -0400, George Thompson wrote: > Does anyone know whether the English Dialect Dictionary has been digitized? Not to my knowledge. Jesse OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 17:58:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:58:46 -0400 Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers Message-ID: LAWFARE Maybe some lawyers are on this list? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 13 July 2004, pg. A14: _"Lawfare"_ By Jeremy Rabkin Maj. Michael Newton, a military lawyer who teaches at West Point, coined a new term earlier this year--"lawfare." ----------------------------------------------------------- EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS Good morning Mr. Popik! I'm pleased to pass on that we've made our first release of the Early American Newspapers - Digitized! Janet From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jul 13 20:07:55 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:07:55 -0500 Subject: "Five Foot Shelf" Message-ID: In a magic/conjuring list on which I am active, there is a discussion of the "Five Foot Shelf" of magic books, originated by mentalist Ted Anneman in the 1930's. Someone has proposed that he got the idea for such from Harvard Classic's "Five Foot Shelf of Books", from about 1909 - 1910. Is there any other origin of the phrase? From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Jul 13 21:11:15 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:11:15 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >> nouveau.) Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: The dog up and died, he up and died. Orin Hargraves From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 13 21:29:12 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:12 -0400 Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers In-Reply-To: <200407131059.1bKryA4MP3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2004, at 1:58 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > LAWFARE > > Maybe some lawyers are on this list? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 13 > July 2004, pg. A14: > > _"Lawfare"_ > By Jeremy Rabkin > > Maj. Michael Newton, a military lawyer who teaches at West Point, > coined a new term earlier this year--"lawfare." What does "lawfare" mean? -Wilson Gray > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS > > Good morning Mr. Popik! > > I'm pleased to pass on that we've made our first release of the Early > American Newspapers - Digitized! > > Janet > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Jul 13 21:49:13 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:49:13 -0500 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <200407132118.i6DLIc120508@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Orin Hargraves wrote: > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > The dog up and died, > he up and died. Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.) Jim Parish From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 14 00:53:04 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:53:04 -0400 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <40F2C0E1@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: At 5:11 PM -0400 7/13/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: >I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >>> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >>> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >>> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >>> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >>> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >>> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >>> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >>> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >>> nouveau.) > >Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't >got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > >The dog up and died, >he up and died. > After 20 years he still grieves. Yup, but that one is definitely "up and", as you note, not "upped and". Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 14 02:04:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:04:11 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040711172627.02574658@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The Sarandon character concludes her quotation of Whitman with a quotation > of Casey Stengel: "You can look it up." As discussed before here, this is actually a James Thurber quote. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pds at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 03:51:18 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:51:18 -0500 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <20040713214819.28A675ACE@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: "Mr. Bojangles," (c) by JJ Walker in 1967, and covered by Bob Dylan, the Dirt Band, everyone and their uncle. A Web site claiming to be quoting the liner notes on Walker's album has it: "His dog up and died, he up and died." --Tom Kysilko At 7/13/2004 04:49 PM -0500, Jim Parish wrote: >Orin Hargraves wrote: > > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I > haven't > > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > > > The dog up and died, > > he up and died. > >Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty >Dirt Band.) Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 05:30:34 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:30:34 -0500 Subject: First Gentleman Message-ID: From http://www.abebooks.com: First Gentleman's Cookbook ORR, William D. Price: US$ 12.99 Shipping: Book Description: Lincoln, Nebraska: Ayres and Associates Inc. 1989. Soft Cover. Fine/No Jacket. First Edition. 4to - over 9¾" - 12" tall. A colorful collection of recipes and anecdotes compiled by the husband of Kay Orr, governor of Nebraska 1989-1993. Includes his favorites such as Celebrate Nebraska Burgers, Governor's Loaf, Mom's Potato Salad, Trooper's Ribs and Kay's Swedish Rye Bread. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 05:40:26 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:40:26 -0500 Subject: First Gentleman -- a couple more uses Message-ID: Michigan's First Gentleman Welcome to the official Michigan.gov web site. This site uses adaptive technology. Instructions are provided within the Accessibility Policy. Skip Navigation ... www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ - 23k - Jul 12, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages First Gentleman to stay out of limelight - Jun. 25, 2004 FIRST Gentleman Jose Miguel 'Mike' Arroyo, who has become a convenient target of his wife's political enemies, intends to maintain the low profile he assumed ... www.inq7.net/nat/2004/jun/25/nat_10-1.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jul 14 11:42:01 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:42:01 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: From: James A. Landau (Or at least i think i got the attribution right--OEQuoteFix doesn't like the latest list digest, for some reason.) : What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a : label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the : husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer : is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first : gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) Just noting that counterexamples to the claim that "there's no role of 'first gentleman' or whatever" have been recently posted--the husbands of the female governors of Michigan and Utah are both referred to, officially, as their states' first gentlemen. Betty Crocker's (1956) _Guide to entertaining_ notwithstanding, married men *can* host social functions these days. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jul 14 12:43:51 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:51 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning I was reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently well-established word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the easy search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it here: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/index.html Geoff (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jul 14 13:45:18 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:45:18 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: The word _mongo_ (derived perhaps from _mungo_, meaning "inferior wool made from felted rags and wastes" [OED: 1857]) is found in BDNE3 (e.q. 1979) with the definition: "objects of salvage, especially as considered of use or value by scavengers." Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jul 14 13:56:59 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:56:59 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040714083653.026db0e0@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: I couldn't take it quite as far back as David, but I put up an entry on "mongo" a few weeks ago: http://doubletongued.org/index.php/mongo/ G On Jul 14, 2004, at 08:43, Geoff Nathan wrote: > I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning > I was > reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently > well-established > word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the > easy > search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning > high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the > street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it > here: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/ > index.html > > Geoff > > (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 14 22:24:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:24:12 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <20040714040624.A48F722870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >>> Unfortunately, having grown up in a house whose backyard was a chicken yard, I am only too familiar with the manner in which (some) birds copulate. Given that the first thing that a rooster does after finishing with a chicken is to kick that chicken aside with his spurs, I long imagined that it was this brutal dismissal of the female partner immediately after the climax of the sex act that had given rise to the verb "spurn," despite that fact that the cliche is, "_she_ spurned _his_ advances." <<< I checked in the OED Online. Your guess about the association with "spur" is evidently a good one, but not for the reason that you were thinking of: >>> [The stem is prob. that of SPUR n.[1]] I. intr. 1. To strike against something with the foot; to trip or stumble. Also fig. Obs. b. In proverbial contrast with speed. Chiefly Sc[ottish]. 2. To strike or thrust with the foot; to kick (at something). Obs. b. In allusive phrases. Obs. (Cf. KICK v.1 1c.) c. To strike at with a weapon. Obs. 1 d. To dash; to drive quickly. Obs. 3. fig. To kick against or at something disliked or despised; to manifest opposition or antipathy, esp. in a scornful or disdainful manner. II. trans. 4. To strike (the foot) against something. Obs. 5. To strike or tread (something) with the foot; to trample or kick. In later use freq. with implication of contempt. b. With advs. or advb. phrases, as away, down, off, up, etc. Also fig. 6. To reject with contempt or disdain; to treat contemptuously; to scorn or despise. <<< -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 15 03:12:31 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:12:31 -0400 Subject: Pro-fil-ac-tic Message-ID: When I was a lad in the 1950s, I worked in a drug store as a stock boy, floor cleaner, soda jerk. On the counter of the prescription area, directly next to the cash register, was a wooden display case for combs. It had a glass front displaying maybe a dozen models. The customer would select the model he wanted and the pharmacist would remove a comb from the stock in the back of this small cabinet. Across the top of this cabinet was the brand name of the combs -- Pro-fil-ac-tic, with the syllables and dashes in place. I always figured it was an aide memoire for customers who had a more colorful name for these devices which, at that time, could be sold only to prevent disease, not just to have fun. They could read off the comb case and not run afoul of the law or 50s sensibilities. Tonight, watching a program on the History Channel on bathroom technology (I don't have much of a life), they showed an early nylon toothbrush from the 1930s. On the box it had the same pro-fil-ac-tic spelled out, not as a brand name, but in smaller print as an attribute. Was I wrong about the insidious intent of the comb case? Or was this syllabic spelling a convention of some sort and for some other purpose? D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 12:57:06 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:57:06 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I have known a lot of people who up and died since I was raised in southern Illinois in the 1950s. I can't explain it but they just up and died. Normally it refers to sudden deaths. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: Re: upped and... > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Kysilko > Subject: Re: upped and... > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > "Mr. Bojangles," (c) by JJ Walker in 1967, and covered by Bob Dylan, the > Dirt Band, everyone and their uncle. A Web site claiming to be quoting the > liner notes on Walker's album has it: > "His dog up and died, he up and died." > --Tom Kysilko > > At 7/13/2004 04:49 PM -0500, Jim Parish wrote: > >Orin Hargraves wrote: > > > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I > > haven't > > > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > > > > > The dog up and died, > > > he up and died. > > > >Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty > >Dirt Band.) > > > Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services > pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA > http://www.visi.com/~pds From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 13:07:36 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:07:36 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel Brooks used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in "Blazing Saddles"? Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of insulting the retarded by calling them mongoloids. Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to do with any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into town a Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". I trust you know the reference. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I couldn't take it quite as far back as David, but I put up an entry on > "mongo" a few weeks ago: > > http://doubletongued.org/index.php/mongo/ > > G > > On Jul 14, 2004, at 08:43, Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning > > I was > > reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently > > well-established > > word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the > > easy > > search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning > > high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the > > street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it > > here: > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/ > > index.html > > > > Geoff > > > > (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) > > > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:28:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:28:25 -0700 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <00ee01c46a6c$b3353f40$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:07 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel > Brooks > used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in > "Blazing Saddles"? > > Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of > insulting the > retarded by calling them mongoloids. > > Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to > do with > any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into > town a > Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". > > I trust you know the reference. this "mongo" -- 'huge' (and also 'very many/much') -- might well have its origin in Blazing Saddles; at least, that's the earliest cite HDAS (which glosses it HUMONGOUS, suggesting that as a derivation) has. almost surely a different word from the trash "mongo". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:44:57 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:44:57 -0700 Subject: on the blend slip watch Message-ID: a blend slip, caught on All Things Considered, 7/14/04, cycling expert talking about Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France: He'll have a lot of more competition. [presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jul 15 17:14:02 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:14:02 -0500 Subject: on the blend slip watch Message-ID: At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a blend slip, caught on All Things Considered, 7/14/04, cycling expert >talking about Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France: > >He'll have a lot of more competition. > >[presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements are "a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] competition" Gerald Cohen From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 17:30:34 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:30:34 -0700 Subject: on the blend slip watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> He'll have a lot of more competition. >> >> [presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] > > Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements > are > "a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] > competition" that's what i intended to type. though what i did type is not entirely out of the question. arnold From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 17:35:59 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:35:59 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Mongo Santamaria is a jazz musician and a very good one. It was a cheap joke on the part of Mel Brooks which shows how little most people who do not play music or know anything about it know about jazz. Mongo! :) Santamaria! Page Stephens PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:07 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > > > Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel > > Brooks > > used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in > > "Blazing Saddles"? > > > > Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of > > insulting the > > retarded by calling them mongoloids. > > > > Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to > > do with > > any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into > > town a > > Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". > > > > I trust you know the reference. > > this "mongo" -- 'huge' (and also 'very many/much') -- might well have > its origin in Blazing Saddles; at least, that's the earliest cite HDAS > (which glosses it HUMONGOUS, suggesting that as a derivation) has. > almost surely a different word from the trash "mongo". > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 15 18:42:57 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:42:57 -0400 Subject: on the blend slip watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 15, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >>At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >>>He'll have a lot of more competition. >>> >>>[presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] >> >>Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements >>are >>"a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] >>competition" > >that's what i intended to type. though what i did type is not entirely >out of the question. > >arnold actually I find "a lot of competition", as in Arnold's original post, to be a far more natural blendee here than the other ("extra" or "additional") options. "They won't offer {much/a lot of} competition" is a standard collocation, while "a lot of {extra/additional} competition" doesn't seem that likely. This is borne out via google, which yields just 2 and 1 hits respectively for these, compared with 35,200 for "a lot of competition" tout court. In fact, even "(There is) a lot of more competition" itself, ill-formed as it is, has as many hits (1) as "a lot of additional competition". larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jul 15 19:29:55 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:29:55 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 PM -0500 wrote: > >PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. Or, when??? From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 20:07:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:44 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <200407151230.1bLbVEc93NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barnhart > Subject: Re: Mongo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 > PM > -0500 wrote: >> >> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. > > Or, when??? Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. -Wilson Gray > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 20:55:27 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:55:27 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Which does remind me of Nomar Garciaparra's name since Nomar is Ramon spelled backwards. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Barnhart > > Subject: Re: Mongo > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 > > PM > > -0500 wrote: > >> > >> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. > > > > Or, when??? > > Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish > nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced > approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. > > -Wilson Gray > > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 15 21:39:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:39:09 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several jazz histories say that Ramon Santamaria's father nicknamed him "Mongo" after a Senegalese Chief. "Mongo" is indeed a West African name, and African traditions are quite strong in Cuba. Is the derivation of "Mongo" from "Ramon" (based on the phonology of the last syllable, indeed accurate for Cuban Spanish) attested? dInIs >On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Barnhart >>Subject: Re: Mongo >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 >>PM >>-0500 wrote: >>> >>>PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. >> >>Or, when??? > >Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish >nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced >approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jul 15 22:03:49 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:03:49 -0400 Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci Message-ID: Does anyone know of a language scholar named Claudio R. Salvucci? He has (self?) published a "PHILADELPHIA DIALECT DICTIONARY" (1996 $38), a GRAMMAR OF THE PHILADELPHIA DIALECT (1998, $42), vocabularies of Etruscan & Oscan, each about 40+ pp., (@ $32) and a couple of things about American Indian languages. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 16 00:45:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:45:57 -0400 Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci In-Reply-To: <200407151503.1bLekE63B3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Check this out: -Wilson Gray On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:03 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Does anyone know of a language scholar named Claudio R. Salvucci? He > has (self?) published a "PHILADELPHIA DIALECT DICTIONARY" (1996 $38), > a GRAMMAR OF THE PHILADELPHIA DIALECT (1998, $42), vocabularies of > Etruscan & Oscan, each about 40+ pp., (@ $32) and a couple of things > about American Indian languages. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 16 02:27:49 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:27:49 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <200407151440.1bLdXD5YU3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: It's generally supposed that the African traditions of Cuba, including santeria, are based upon the Yoruba traditions of Nigeria and not those of Senegal. Of course, you never know, given that black Americans use "going to Jenegal" - where "Jenegal" is clearly based upon "Senegal" - to mean "going to West Hell/the back of Beyond/etc." and survivals of African traditions are trivial in the US. In any case, Mongo told me himself that his nom-de-musique was a nickname for "Ramon." Of course, that doesn't make it true. People don't always wish to explain themselves to strangers and it's easier to say "It's a nickname" than to give a full, unnecessary explanation to an idle question from a nightclub patron. I first saw Mongo in person in 1958 in a little club in L.A. so tiny that he and I were less than an arm's-length apart. At that time, he was the conguero for Cal Tjader's conjunto. During the intermission, my friends and I, who grew up in Saint Louis, struck up a conversation with Tjader, who was a native of Saint Louis, and the other guys, Mongo, Willie Bobo, the timbalero, and Al McKibbon, the bassist. In any case, it's not always possible to document a nickname, especially one that may be peculiar to a minority group or perhaps just to a particular family. -Wilson Gray On Jul 15, 2004, at 5:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Mongo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Several jazz histories say that Ramon Santamaria's father nicknamed > him "Mongo" after a Senegalese Chief. "Mongo" is indeed a West > African name, and African traditions are quite strong in Cuba. Is the > derivation of "Mongo" from "Ramon" (based on the phonology of the > last syllable, indeed accurate for Cuban Spanish) attested? > > dInIs > >> On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Barnhart >>> Subject: Re: Mongo >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 >>> PM >>> -0500 wrote: >>>> >>>> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. >>> >>> Or, when??? >> >> Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish >> nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced >> approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. >> >> -Wilson Gray > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 16 02:42:45 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:45 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Barnhart: <> The form is exactly right and the semantic connection is possibly acceptable but I doubt this derivation because this "mungo" is just too unfamiliar a word in modern times. One "Mongo" which was well known in the 1970's was the planet ruled by the evil Ming in "Flash Gordon". However, I see no semantic connection. Here is another possible derivation. Note that "mongo" means not only "scavenged material" but also "scavenger" (e.g., in HDAS and in Green's Cassell slang dictionary); which one is primary? The word "junkmonger" = "junk dealer" has/had sufficient currency to be the etymon, I believe, but is also uncommon enough that it might easily be construed as "junk monger" = "junk scavenger" giving "monger" = "scavenger", which could be altered to "mongo" = "scavenger" and/or used to derive "mongo" = "that which the monger scavenges". "Scrapmonger" would be an alternative candidate etymon. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 16 02:56:52 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:56:52 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715221826.02f306c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Googling with <<"ramon mongo" -santamaria>> produces a number of examples of various men named Ramon and nicknamed "Mongo". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 03:02:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:19 EDT Subject: Coolidge quote on preacher & sin:"He was against it" (1925) Message-ID: LAWFARE--The Wall Street Journal story said that it means "warfare" through lawyers. I didn't go too deeply into it because I had a lunch "hour" of two minutes and Fred Shapiro would've re-checked, anyway. ------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COOLIDGE QUOTE >From the NEW YORK SUN, 15 July 2004, pg. 9, col. 2: There's an old joke Democrats used to tell about President Coolidge, a man of few words. It seems the president attended church one Sunday, while Mrs. Coolidge remained at the White House. On his return, anxious that she might have missed something significant, the first lady asker her husband about the preacher's sermon topic. "He spoke about sin," the president replied. :What did he say," Mrs. Coolidge inquired. "He was against it." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gastonia Daily Gazette Saturday, January 16, 1926 Gastonia, North Carolina ...did tHE preacHEr say about "HE WAS AGAINST IT." tHE cITv school faculty.....FisHEr, Mrs. J. L. Ross, Mrs. Joe "SIN." until tHEir new home on Sixth and.. _"Cal" Practice Economy_ The latest Coolidge story characteristic of the President's economy in government as well as words, as told by one of his friends over the radio, is: President Coolidge attended church some time since unaccompanied by Mrs. Coolidge. Upon his return to the WHite House, Mrs. Coolidge asked him whether the sermon was good. To which he replied: "Yes." "What was it about?" "Sin." "What did the preacher say about it?" "He was against it/" Morning News Review Sunday, February 28, 1926 Florence, South Carolina ...SIN." "What did tHE minister "HE WAS AGAINST IT." ninny proposals for.....going home one night in a ttarncur. IT WAS late, and tHE man who sat next to.. Bridgeport Telegram Wednesday, March 09, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...preach "SIN." "Yes, but what did HE say about j "lie WAS AGAINST IT." Mr.....along IT WAS till tHE voice broke up AGAINST tlvo mountains. Dr. Kcott WAS a.. Daily Northwestern Friday, January 06, 1933 Oshkosh, Wisconsin ...Coolidge said right back, 'Why, HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Jones, Republican, had much.....HE had finisHEd. about and HE said 'SIN.' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what tHE.. Chronicle Telegram Friday, January 06, 1933 Elyria, Ohio ...Coolidge said right back 'Why, HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Ohio, York and too lb.....what tHE sermon WAS about and HE said 'SIN' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what t HE I.. Charleston Daily Mail Friday, January 06, 1933 Charleston, West Virginia ...Coolidge said right back 'why, HE WAS AGAINST IT..' Message to Congress.....what Uie sermon WAS about and HE said 'SIN.' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what t HE.. Hammond Times Monday, July 08, 1957 Hammond, Indiana ...persisted. "My husband replied 'HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Mrs. Coolidge said tHE ex.....replied 'yes.' 'What WAS IT -I asked. 'SIN' said tHE late President. 'What did.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Coolidge's Economy Extends -- To His Report of a Sermon Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1925. p. 1 (1 page) ON BOARD THE PRESIDENT'S TRAIN, on Way to Chicago, Cumberland, Md., Dec, 6.--The latest Coolidge story, characteristic of the President's economy in words as well as in Government expenses, is being told on the President's train traveling to Chicago. As told by one of his friends, this is the story: President Coolidge attended church some time ago unaccompanied by Mrs. Coolidge. One his return to the White House Mrs. Coolidge asked him whether the sermon was good, to which he replied, "Yes." "What was it about?" "Sin." "What did the preacher say about it?" "He was against it." 2. OUR LOQUACIOUS PRESIDENT The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 12, 1925. p. 6 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 05:17:15 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:17:15 EDT Subject: Amateurs Built Ark,Professionals Built Titanic (1990) Message-ID: AMATEURS BUILT THE ARK; PROFESSIONALS BUILT THE TITANIC I'm away from FACTIVA. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374618 Question Subject: Origin of saying "..amateurs built the ark - professionals built the Titanic..". Category: Arts and Entertainment > Books and Literature Asked by: tomazos-ga List Price: $5.00 Posted: 15 Jul 2004 12:54 PDT Expires: 14 Aug 2004 12:54 PDT Question ID: 374618 What is the origin of the saying "...amateurs built the ark -professionals built the Titanic..."? Answer Log in to add an answer There is no answer at this time. Comments Log in to add a comment Subject: Re: Origin of saying "..amateurs built the ark - professionals built the Titanic..". From: pinkfreud-ga on 15 Jul 2004 13:29 PDT There are many online mentions of a similar quote attributed to Dave Barry, but I have found no evidence that Barry is the actual source,nor any verifiable citation. The quote does not appear anywhere on Dave Barry's official website.http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8& q=professionals+ark+titanic+%22dave+barry (GOOGLE GROUPS) COWS ... B: Lord, how'd he do that? A: Lodged in his throat. Regards, ....Bill --- . MegaMail 2.1. #0:Professionals built the Titanic;amateurs the ark . QNet3. . ... comp.sys.mac.misc - Jun 26, 1993 by Bill Drissel - View Thread (5 articles) Disappearing directory listings.. ... It was the amateurs who built Noah's Ark, but it was the professionals %%% who designed and built the Titanic" - British Olympic official %%%%% bit.listserv.novell - Jan 25, 1993 by Sarah Finn x3043 - Maths Support Staff - View Thread (1 article) Re: Let's hear from the lurkers! ... day. Could make for some interesting different threads..... Bill.etc | Professionals built the Titanic--amateurs the ark. | - anon. soc.singles - Oct 24, 1990 by Bill HMRP Vajk - View Thread (40 articles) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 16 11:30:11 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:30:11 -0400 Subject: Coolidge quote on preacher & sin:"He was against it" (1925) In-Reply-To: <7b.2e7638c9.2e289f3b@aol.com> Message-ID: The version I always knew had Coolidge saying he was "agin it." A search for that phrase and "Coolidge" does not turn up an antedating, but it does turn up a lot of cites. Grant > "He spoke about sin," the president replied. > > :What did he say," Mrs. Coolidge inquired. > > "He was against it." -- Grant Barrett Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang" (2004) Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester http://www.doubletongued.org/ Webmaster, American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org/ From jmb at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 16 13:38:57 2004 From: jmb at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:38:57 -0700 Subject: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers Message-ID: *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. A French novel sans verbs (though not sans verbals). A correspondingly verbless article from page 1 of today's Wall Street Journal. John Baker ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed. Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=150&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=384962998&partnerID=150&pt=Y ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 16 13:56:02 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:56:02 -0400 Subject: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers In-Reply-To: <27934881.1089985137018.JavaMail.tomcat@localhost> Message-ID: LanguageLog, a group blog operated by linguists, some who are on this list, had several posts about the book and related topics, including writing without other parts of speech. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000884.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000885.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000886.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000887.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000889.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000890.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000891.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000892.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000900.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000902.html (Sorry for all the links. The LanguageLog folks tend to post new entries instead of just having a discussion attached to a single entry, which makes this kind of ridiculousness necessary.) Grant On Jul 16, 2004, at 09:38, Baker, John wrote: > *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. > > > > A French novel sans verbs (though not sans verbals). A > correspondingly verbless article from page 1 of today's Wall Street > Journal. > > John Baker > > > > > > ******************** > > If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if > the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions > at the bottom of this email. > > Title: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few > Pallbearers > This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online > Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed. > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent > link: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y > > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: > http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp? > clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=150&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y > > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this > link: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=forward&etMailToID=384962998&partnerID=150&pt=Y > > > > ******************** > > > Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to > your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" > > > ********************* > > > > Instructions: > ----------------------------------------- > If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: > 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to > highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line > in your email. > 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. > 3. Launch your Web browser. > 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the > Edit menu. > 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. > > ******************** > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 15:24:28 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:24:28 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: Jones Makes Team, and a Statement The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance (23'4") in the long jump. So she made (= qualified for) the team, and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated. Clearly very different senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally (one assumes) elided. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 15:58:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <003601c46aae$0ef186e0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0400 7/15/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Which does remind me of Nomar Garciaparra's name since Nomar is Ramon >spelled backwards. > >Page Stephens and for those wondering why, Nomar's father is Ramon (>Mongo?) Garciaparra. larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 16 16:22:49 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:22:49 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Metaphorically or even semantically (and in some cases grammatically) distinct conjoinings are always interesting. I once had an MA candidate years ago who did an experimental (grammaticality judgment) survey, beginning with such absurdities as "He looked up her number and then the stairwell." I remember being surprised at the number of things found acceptable which we thought would be ruled out, particularly the conjoining of these verb+particle and verb+PP forms (which I find very ugly, although I'm not really happy with some of the metaphoric conjoinings either - "He climbed the ladder of success and his back stairs all in one day"). dInIs (who, fortunately, will not run for public office and be branded a zeugmaphiliac, by Fox News or anybody else) Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: Jones Makes Team, and a Statement The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance (23'4") in the long jump. So she made (= qualified for) the team, and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated. Clearly very different senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally (one assumes) elided. larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 16:54:17 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:54:17 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:22 PM -0400 7/16/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Metaphorically or even semantically (and in some cases grammatically) >distinct conjoinings are always interesting. I once had an MA >candidate years ago who did an experimental (grammaticality judgment) >survey, beginning with such absurdities as "He looked up her number >and then the stairwell." I remember being surprised at the number of >things found acceptable which we thought would be ruled out, >particularly the conjoining of these verb+particle and verb+PP forms >(which I find very ugly, although I'm not really happy with some of >the metaphoric conjoinings either - "He climbed the ladder of success >and his back stairs all in one day"). One of my favorite non-elliptical zeugmas could have been turned into a similar reduced form but for the exigencies of meter: She blew my nose and then [she blew] my mind. --Jagger & Richard (1971) larry From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jul 16 17:32:57 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:32:57 +0000 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: <20040716152438.199B45239@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The zeugmaphiles' Valhalla, I would maintain, is Flanders and Swann's Madeira M'Dear She was young, she was pure, she was new, she was nice, She was fair, she was sweet seventeen. He was old, he was vile and no stranger to vice, He was base, he was bad, he was mean. He had slyly enveigled her up to his flat To view his collection of stamps >>>And he said as he hastened to put out the cat, <<< >>>The wine, his cigar and the lamps: <<< "Have some Madeira, m'Dear! You really have nothing to fear. I'm not trying to tempt you, that wouldn't be right; You shouldn't drink spirits at this time of night. Have some Madeira, m'Dear! It's so very much nicer than beer. I don't care for sherry and cannot drink stout And port is a wine I can well do without. It's simply a case of "chaçun à son goût". Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Unaware of the wiles of the snake in the grass And the fate of the maiden who topes, >>>She lowered her standards by raising her glass,<<< >>>Her courage, her eyes and his hopes. <<< She sipped it, she drank it, she drained it, she did And quietly he filled it again And he said as he secretly carved one more notch On the butt of his gold-handled cane. "Have some Madeira, m'Dear! I've got a small cask of it here And once it's been opened, you know it won't keep Do finish it up, it will help you to sleep. Have some Madeira, m'Dear! It's really an excellent year. Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes, The evil gin does would be hard to assess (Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess) Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Then there flashed though her mind what her mother had said With her antepenultimate breath: "Oh my child, should you look at the wine which is red Be prepared for a fate worse than death!" She let go her glass with a shrill little cry. Crash! Tinkle! It fell to the floor. >>>When he asked "what in Heaven?" she made no reply, <<< >>>Up her mind, a dash for the door. <<< "Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Rang out down the hall, loud and clear, A tremulous cry that was filled with despair As she paused to take breath in the full midnight air. "Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" The words seemed to ring in her ear Until the next morning, she woke up in bed With a smile on her lips, an ache in her head And a beard in her earhole that tickled and said: "Have some Madeira, m'Dear Quoting Laurence Horn : > Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: > Jones Makes Team, and a Statement --Tom Kysilko From LJT777 at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:49:11 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:49:11 EDT Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: This amused me, and I thought it might you as well. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:49:59 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:49:59 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20for=20all=20you=20zeugmap?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hiles=20out=20there...?= Message-ID: Clearly the headline writer was aware of the zuegmarhetorical nature of the utterance--that is the reason for the comma. In a message dated 7/16/04 11:24:51 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > Jones Makes Team, and a Statement > > The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently > under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal > performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. > In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in > disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not > make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance > (23'4") in the long jump.  So she made (= qualified for) the team, > and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her > athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated.  Clearly very different > senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally > (one assumes) elided. > From LJT777 at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:59:15 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:59:15 EDT Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: Oh dear. I am so, so sorry. I thought I had forwarded this to a friend. Lindsie Tucker From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 17 00:55:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:55:48 -0700 Subject: inadvertent relevance Message-ID: examples like the following are easy to find, but i was especially tickled by this one. it's the beginning of a section of the 7/16/04 All Things Considered coverage of the day's news: "Martha Stewart is sentenced, and wildfires spread in the West." now *that's* a powerful woman! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 17 01:09:54 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:09:54 -0400 Subject: inadvertent relevance In-Reply-To: <0AE4CEDA-D78C-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >examples like the following are easy to find, but i was especially >tickled by this one. it's the beginning of a section of the 7/16/04 >All Things Considered coverage of the day's news: "Martha Stewart is >sentenced, and wildfires spread in the West." > >now *that's* a powerful woman! Martha: "I am woman - hear me roar!" Bethany From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 17 15:40:56 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:40:56 -0700 Subject: A Little More On "First Lady" In-Reply-To: <0AE4CEDA-D78C-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Regarding its use for the wife of a pastor, my brother, a Presbyterian minister in New Jersey, has never heard "First Lady" used in this context. "Minister's wife [or husband]" is the term that is overwhelmingly prevalent in his experience. Back ca.1990 he was the director of admissions at Dubuque (Iowa) Theological Seminary. Around then the "student wives group" changed its name to the "spouses group." He did, however, find some school newspapers from the early 1960s that referred to the wives group as the "Parsonettes." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 17 16:52:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:52:18 EDT Subject: White Trash Russian, Poor Man's Margarita, Muddy Bottom, Colt Python Message-ID: I couldn't get the free column through www.metro.us, so I'll have to type it out. The METRO article appears to be a reprint of something written in the COLLEGE TIMES, September 15, 2003. Both articles begin "On a dare last weekend..." http://www.ecollegetimes.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/15/3f65ee58e15ee METRO (NY), weekend, July 16-18, 2004 THE IMBIBER DAN DUNN _Poor-man mixers you can stomach_ ON A DARE last weekend, The Imbiber tried something called a "_White-trash Russian_": A dreadful combination of Bowman's Virginia vodka and Yoo-Hoo. I'm almost certain it did some irreparable damage to my stomach lining and, quite possibly, the central nervous system. (...) "The '_Poor Man's Magarita_'--tequila and Squirt--is a popular one out west," says former GQ mixologist Terry Sullivan. "And in some eastern cities, large parties used to get by on "_Purple Passions_'--Welch's grape juice and grain alcohol. But I hear that '_Blue Lagoons_'--whatever that blue sports drink crap is plus grain alcohol--have recently supplanted them in some circles." Cash-strapped drunks in Chicago swear by "_Muddy Bottoms_," a potent combination of Green River "gourmet" soda and cheap bourbon. I've heard that during the great urine test scare a few years back, some less-than-tasteful folks in New York used to serve a lovely thing called "_Pee in the Bottle_"--Mouuntain Dew and vodka or Everclear in plastic specimen cups. Warm--for verisimilitude. Some of the curb-sitters in my old neighborhodd used to specialize in what was known as the "_Colt Python_," by adding a couple of shots of whatever cheap blended whiskey was on sale at the state store to a half-quart of Colt 45 malt liquor. WHITE TRASH RUSSIAN--35 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits POOR MAN'S MARGARITA--21 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits PURPLE PASSIONS + GRAPE JUICE--6 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits PURPLE PASSION + GRAPE JUICE--426 Google hits, 90 Google Groups hits BLUE LAGOONS + SPORTS DRINK--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits MUDDY BOTTOMS + GREEN RIVER + SODA--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits PEE IN THE BOTTLE + MOUNTAIN DEW--7 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits PEE IN A BOTTLE + MOUNTAIN DEW--15 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits COLT PYTHON + COLT 45 MALT + WHISKEY--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- EFFEN The Metro article cuts out this continuation, available on the College Times site: Of course, trying to cop a load on the cheap anywhere these days can be a daunting task. Still, there are other worthwhile imbiberly pursuits to keep you occupied during these long, hot dog days of Arizona's extended summer. For many years now, I've regularly indulged my mischievous inner-child by ordering cocktails with such provocative names as Sex On The Beach (a Madras, with peach schnapps) and Slippery Nipple (Bailey's, Kahlua and butterscotch schnapps). Some of the most superbly sublime moments in my illustrious nightlife career have involved tomfoolery along the lines of roguishly asking attractive barmistresses for a Long Kiss Goodnight (vanilla vodka and cr?me de cacao) or Their Phone Number (a scowl and a double-shot of cold rejection served straight-up). And silly sexual innuendo isn't the only fun to be had when ordering drinks when you're at the bar instead of, say, at home, studying. In fact, a brand new vodka from Holland could be the greatest thing to happen to smart-asses since the invention of plastic dog shit and whoopee cushions. It's called Effen, and it is pronounced precisely as it's spelled. As in, "Hey bartender, can I get some Effen vodka in this drink?" or "This is the best Effen vodka I've ever tasted" or "Man, when are the Effen Cardinals gonna' do the right thing by us and move to Los Angeles?" From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sat Jul 17 23:25:50 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:25:50 -0400 Subject: Ladies and Gentlemen, the firsts In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$30d6fs@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: What to call Mr. Shaheen? Speaking to guests at a house party fundraiser for John Kerry in Brewster last night, former New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen recounted a discussion she had with her husband, Bill Shaheen, after she was elected in 1996. Both Shaheens were breaking new ground - she as the Granite State's first female governor, he as its first male spouse of a governor. So, how now to refer to Mr. Shaheen? After suggestions of "First Man" and "First Gentleman" were floated aloud, Bill Shaheen had a better idea, his wife said - "I want to be First Hunk!" 07/08/2004 http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/edits/cctblogs/jc/ ********************************************************* This site makes a clear distinction between First Ladies (wives) and first women/females in certain offices: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/1402/frststat.html Mrs. Nellie Tayloe Ross became the first woman governor in the United States. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108293.html Mrs. Ferguson served as the first lady of Texas during the gubernatorial terms of her husband (1915-17), who was impeached during his second administration. When James Ferguson failed to get his name on the ballot in 1924, Miriam entered the race for the Texas governorship. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/FF/ffe6.html [election catchphrase: "Two governors for the price of one!"] "Miriam "Ma" Ferguson was both first lady and governor (twice) - she was the first female governor of Texas and the second female governor in the US." http://austin.about.com/cs/pregnancy/a/babynames.htm ********************************************************* Patricia Rowland, First Lady of CT, wife of 86th governor, John Rowland: http://www.ct.gov/governorrowland/cwp/view.asp?a=1329&q=256000 vs. Governor Jodi Rell, 87th Governor of CT and her husband, Mr. Louis Rell http://www.ct.gov/governorrell/cwp/view.asp?Q=276026&A=1720 ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 18 02:42:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:42:32 -0400 Subject: Ark/amateurs, Titanic/professionals (from Factiva) (1979);Spoiler Message-ID: Every week this happens. You work all week. Then it's Saturday, and you try to sleep late. Then you walk over to the New York Public Library, where David Shulman has more poems to read to you. Then you walk to NYU to get some work done, and Pro Quest tells you it's down until tomorrow for maintenance. ------------------------------------------------------------- ARK/AMATEURS, TITANIC/PROFESSIONALS More on this phrase, if it floats your boat. Is it Canadian? British? (FACTIVA) News When Canadians feel tired, they go away for a holiday, from which ... Richard J. Needham 828 words 13 June 1979 The Globe and Mail P6 English All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All rights reserved. When Canadians feel tired, they go away for a holiday, from which they return totally exhausted. -30 G. M. Trevelyan: Socrates gave no diplomas or degrees, and would have subjected any disciple who demanded one to a disconcerting catechism on the nature of true knowledge. Alberta took the gas and oil out of the ground and has a Heritage Fund of $5-billion to show for it. Ontario took the metal out of the ground and has billion-dollar deficits to show for it. -30 It started with the notion, Carefully cultivated by the "educators", that you need a diploma or degree to get a good job. This notion then linked hands with the notion, carefully cultivated by the politicians, that every body has the right to a good job. A third notion logically followed - that everybody, regardless of intelligence or achievement, has the right to be given a diploma or degree. The end of the process, now well in sight, is that all have diplomas, all have degrees, and all are illiterate. John Robert Colombo had a collection of Parkinson-style laws in this paper the other day, and was kind enough to include three that I dreamed up. By way of thanks, I'll print a few such laws that I ran across recently; I've sent their various origins to Mr. Colombo in case he wants to bird-dog them down. Any time you don't want anything, you get it. A lost article invariably shows up after you replace it. Don't talk unless you can improve the silence. The other line moves faster. If there isn't a law, there will be. Insanity is hereditary - you can get it from your children. If you aren't confused, you're badly informed. If there's a harder way of doing something, someone will find it. The Titanic was built by professionals, the Ark by amateurs. If you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply; they're going to stop making it. -30 (FACTIVA) Richard Needham - The witty MP who was too relaxed. By Tim Rayment 777 words 11 November 1990 The Sunday Times English (c) 1990 Times Newspapers Ltd Not Available for Re-dissemination. If any minister were to term his leader a cow as he spoke on an insecure telephone, it was likely to be Richard Needham. He is one of Westminster's most popular and relaxed MPs, a "wet" whose frivolity probably delayed his appointment to the government. Two words are always attached to him. "Modest" because he is a peer who chooses not to use his Irish title, the sixth Earl of Kilmorey. "Knickers" because that is his nickname, from a period spent working on an underwear counter in Marks and Spencer. He was given the job of under-secretary at the Northern Ireland Office in 1985, and has never moved. His contemporaries, such as Chris Patten, John Patten and William Waldegrave, found their positions faster, but an easy-going exterior is thought to have held Needham back. If you speak to his colleagues, their first remarks are of wit. He makes people laugh. In Northern Ireland he is the government minister who is genuinely funny when he visits. At Westminster he is funny in debate. His words seconding the Queen's Speech in 1984, which he used to urge more help for the young unemployed "the Ark was built by amateurs, but professionals built the Titanic" are still remembered. So is his book Honourable Member, a source work for parliamentary gossips. -------------------------------------------------------------- SPOILER (continued; no follow-up?) Magazine Desk; SECT6 THE WAY WE LIVE NOW: 6-6-04: ON LANGUAGE Spoiler By William Safire 1,000 words 6 June 2004 The New York Times Late Edition - Final 27 English (c) 2004 New York Times Company (...) Political etymologists need help. Earliest use I can find -- though not quite in the sought-after sense of ''vote splitter'' -- is by The Times's Anthony Lewis in 1959, who recounted a legislative maneuver of Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson to outfox Democratic liberals: ''The Senator from Texas obviously enjoyed the role of spoiler hugely.'' Before that, who? Theodore Roosevelt? As an independent, he outpolled his fellow Republican, President William Howard Taft, making possible the Democrat Woodrow Wilson's victory in 1912. Send citations (the real thing, not a vague recollection like mine) to onlanguage at nytimes.com and win lexicographical fame without fortune. ("Offer not valid for Barry Popik"--ed.) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jul 18 17:41:03 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: <20040717040209.56A8C228C0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: When he asked: 'What in heaven ... ?' she made no reply, Up her mind and a dash for the door. Flanders and Swann, Madeira M'Dear http://www.nyanko.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fas/hat_mader.html -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 18 23:43:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:43:51 EDT Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago Message-ID: BARRYPOPIK.COM Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is the site not true, it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one spot on Google. My site is already number two on YAHOO! for "Big Apple" + "nickname." However, on Google, it's about 300, even on a search of "Barry Popik" and "Big Apple." It's below such sites as "Class Brain." Incredible. The site has some stuff about NYC that I'd previously posted here. I want it up and in good position for August, when the Republicans and the Big Apple sculptures come to town. It would be nice if the site gets me money and/or dates, but this is my life we're talking about, so that's not possible. It would be nice if William Safire mentions the site, or Gothamist mentions it, or the New Yorker, or New York, but that's probably not possible, either. The 1924 Big Apple column head (with the Woolworth building on the apple) is still not on the site, and I don't even know how to do that...It would be nice if I had a free day or two to get some sleep and work on it, and didn't have to do parking tickets every waking hour. If you like the site, thank Grant Barrett for his help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MALTED MILK & CHICAGO I've discussed the milkshake. The malted, Walgreens, Chicago, 1922. Hm. (NEW YORK PRESS) http://www.nypress.com/17/28/food/MatthewFisher.cfm EATS & DRINKS The Milkshake By Matthew Fisher THE MILKSHAKE (...) Though frozen desserts date back hundreds of years—flavored shaved ice and fruit drinks being among the oldest, with varieties of ice cream-like concoctions not far behind—the first person to commercially prepare and distribute ice cream in America is said to have been a Baltimore man named Jacob Fussell, in 1851. He was a milk dealer that originally sold milk and ice cream out of a wagon, then eventually more ice cream, and is credited as the first American to create an ice cream factory. That said, Augustus Jackson, a Philadelphian and former White House chef, is said to have moved back to Philly in the 1830s and begun mixing up a variety of ice cream flavors that he delivered packed in tin cans to parlors in the area. Others claim that the first ice cream parlor is said to have opened in New York in 1776. (Coincidentally, some credit a Philadelphia soda water concessionaire named Robert M. Green with inventing the ice cream soda. One day, so the story goes, he ran out of cream for one of his carbonated water beverages and added ice cream instead. His sales took off.) The ice cream cone became famous a bit later. Though its origins are murky, most agree that the cone came to prominence at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, MO. Several waffle makers were at the fair and claim credit, but the International Association of Ice Cream Manufacturers (whoever they are) credit Ernest Hamwi as the one who gets the goods. The story goes that he was cooking up a thin waffle material at a booth next to an ice cream stand, and when his neighbors ran out of dishes, they started curling Hamwi's waffles. On the other hand, in 1903 an Italian immigrant named Italo Marchiony, living in New York, applied for a patent for a "molding apparatus for forming ice cream cups and the like." Marchioni sold ice cream from a cart and is said to have switched to using the waffle-like cups to keep overhead down, which resulted in a boom in his business and a fleet of carts. The milkshake, or at least the malted milkshake, is credited to the old Walgreens chain, where a man named Ivar "Pop" Coulson invented the beverage in 1922 . Up until then the drinks were made with milk, malt powder and chocolate syrup, but one day to make an extra-cool drink, Pop added some ice cream. This was a major revolution, and the Walgreens chains really took off. COULSON'S ORIGINAL OLD-FASHIONED CHOCOLATE MALTED MILK Use a frosted malt can 1 1/2 oz. chocolate syrup 3 - #16 dips of vanilla ice cream 5 1/2 oz. of cold milk Add malt powder (one heaping tablespoonful) Place on mixer only until mixed—do not over-mix Use a generous portion of whipped topping in a #1808 - 10 oz. glass Pour malted milk in glass approximately 2/3 full Serve remainder of malted in a shaker along with the glass to the guest with straws and package of fountain treat cookies Priced at 20 cents, Coulson's new malted came with a glassine bag containing two complimentary vanilla cookies from the company bakery (source: Walgreen's website). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (Not written by Martha Stewart--ed.) PRICES OF LOOP "MALTED MILKS" VARY--BUT WHY?; Fountaineers Can't Agree on Costliest Item. MARTHA. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 2, 1921. p. 13 (1 page) _"Martha, Martha, thou hast troubled thyself about many things."_ (...) I received a similar check at Wood's, 198 South Michigan avenue. E. F. Wood, proprietor, explained the price. "We make our own chocolate syrup," he said. "It''s the purest. Then there's ice cream, anbd half cream and half milk, instead of water. A bot of malted milk, the most expensive. Our drinks are shaken by hand instead of by electrical machine. That takes more time. "If people didn't think our malted milks were worth 25 cents, they would not buy them, would they? _Ah! 5 Cents Cheaper._ At the combination lunch counter-soda fountain in Tibbetts & Garland's. There the malted milk sold for 20 cents, with two pennies more for war tax. "The malted milk is the big item in the cost," said R. Gosney, head of the fountain. "We shoot in a big dipper of ice cream, as well as whipped cream on top." (...) "we lowered our prices two months before Mr. Poole started his campaign," he said. "We make our money on the amount we sell. There's only about 2 cents profit on each one, but it's a good advertisement. The ice cream is the biggest coast in this drink." (...) But at Buck & Bayner's, at Madison and State streets, W. A Krafft, general manager, gave me the whole history of the malted milk. His cost the customer 13 cents, and 20 for one with an egg. _6 Per Cent Net Profit._ Here's the itemized cost: Ice cream........................$0.014 Milk.................................. .018 Sirup................................. .014 Topping.............................. .005 Malted milk........................ .022 15 per cent shrinkage........... .005 ----------------------------------------------- Total cost.........................$0.078 (...) (So Walgreens didn't invented the malted in 1922...Walgreens? They have historical scholars over there? Why do newspaper reporters trust food industry partisan hacks for information? Might as well just ask the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council for the origin of the word "hot dog"--ed.) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 00:23:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:23:54 -0400 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 "... preventative services ..." Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. -Wilson Gray From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 19 01:24:51 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:24:51 -0600 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: Wow, Barry, what a great idea. Probably the best way to deal with this particular kind of problem of wilful ignorance. I'll check out the site later this evening to help bring you up above 'class brain'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:44 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And > then tell two > friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. > > I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is > the site not true, > it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one > spot on Google. > > My site is already number two on YAHOO! for "Big Apple" + > "nickname." > However, on Google, it's about 300, even on a search of > "Barry Popik" and "Big > Apple." It's below such sites as "Class Brain." Incredible. > > The site has some stuff about NYC that I'd previously > posted here. I want it > up and in good position for August, when the Republicans > and the Big Apple > sculptures come to town. > > It would be nice if the site gets me money and/or dates, > but this is my life > we're talking about, so that's not possible. It would be > nice if William > Safire mentions the site, or Gothamist mentions it, or the > New Yorker, or New York, > but that's probably not possible, either. > > The 1924 Big Apple column head (with the Woolworth building > on the apple) is > still not on the site, and I don't even know how to do > that...It would be nice > if I had a free day or two to get some sleep and work on > it, and didn't have > to do parking tickets every waking hour. > > If you like the site, thank Grant Barrett for his help. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 19 02:15:39 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:15:39 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two > friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. > > I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is the site not true, > it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one spot on Google. This site is well worth looking at. Its contents go far beyond "Big Apple," and make for fascinating reading. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Jul 19 04:15:09 2004 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:15:09 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: Long overdue, and I will shout it from my small rooftop. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 7:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago BARRYPOPIK.COM Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 19 05:55:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:55:03 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > "... preventative services ..." > Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but there it is). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 19 06:23:04 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:23:04 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2D761E12-D948-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>"... preventative services ..." >>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > >ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". > >also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >there it is). Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 19 06:34:14 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:34:14 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: >Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two >friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. OK, I went a couple of times. Hmm ... two friends? If someone assumes the existence of two friends, his life can't be too bad. It seems that before "Big Apple" meant "New York City" it meant "the New York area racing circuit" or so: it wasn't "in the Big Apple", it was "on the Big Apple". So why was the term "Big Apple" applied to the New York racetracks? Is "apple" just used for "thing", as in "the whole apple" = "the whole thing"? Does anybody know? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 07:26:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:26:46 EDT Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:35:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: > So why was the term "Big Apple" applied to the New York racetracks? Is > "apple" just used for "thing", as in "the whole apple" = "the whole thing"? > Does anybody know? > > -- Doug Wilson Big--as in Big Time, Big City. Apple--a favorite of horses and historically used as a reward or big prize. I have much more (including cartoons of apples), some of which I'll add later. RECENTLY ADDED: Fitz Gerald obituary, Gang Green, Statue of Liberty Play. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 12:03:28 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:03:28 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Don't you mean "An ounce of preventation is worth a pound of curation" dInIs >Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > >"... preventative services ..." > >Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 19 13:00:14 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Don't you mean >"An ounce of preventation is worth a pound of curation" > >dInIs ~~~~~~~~~ As practiced by curates? A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 19 14:32:15 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:15 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <20040719040437.B432B228A2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >"... preventative services ..." > >Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. Or a kilogram of curation. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 19 16:03:37 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:03:37 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2D761E12-D948-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). Peter Mc. --On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >> "... preventative services ..." >> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > > ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for > "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn > common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", > in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ > for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in > spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years > and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is > more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". > > also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but > there it is). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 16:16:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:16:41 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090227817@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Is "hickish" a technical term? Maybe just to be more PC you should say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even "trailer-trashy" to you. dInIs (a hick) >I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to use >them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our U.K. >list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a preference on >their side of the pond for either one or the other, perhaps paralleling the >British preference for "orientated," which sounds hickish to educated >American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). > >Peter Mc. > > >--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" > wrote: > >>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>"... preventative services ..." >>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >> >>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >> >>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>there it is). >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 17:47:13 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:47:13 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407182323.1bMryLAL3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 19, 2004, at 2:23 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "preventative" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>> "... preventative services ..." >>> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >> >> ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >> "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >> common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >> in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >> for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >> spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >> and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >> more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >> >> also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >> there it is). I had no idea that "preventation" was used so much that it has actually appeared in print. In fact, until I read the post above, I truly thought that _I_ had coined the term for the purpose of a cheap laugh in my own post. As they say in similar situations on South Park, "God damn it!" But, as you say, "there it is." -Wilson Gray > > Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". > > -- Doug Wilson > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jul 19 18:47:31 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:47:31 -0500 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:23 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "preventative" > > > Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". > > -- Doug Wilson > What about "commentator" vs. "commenter"? From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 19:20:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:20:54 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: By the early 'Sixties, I had long been familiar with the terms "clit(ty) and "the little man in the boat." However, I knew them only as literary, therefore "white" terms and I wanted find out whether there was a term for "clitoris" in BE. So, one day in 1963, I asked a female friend whether she knew a slang term for the clitoris. She answered, "Yes: 'pearltongue.' (the spelling used here reflects my mental picture of the word, since it didn't occur to me to ask her to spell it out)." The next day, at work, I asked one of my male colleagues the same question. He answered, "Yes: 'purrtongue' (same caveat re spelling as above)." I found this quite interesting, since "clitoris" and some form of "tongue" fall together in other languages. Cf., e.g. German "schamzuengelchen," literally, "little shame-tongue" and Sardo-Nugorese "limbeddha," literally, "little tongue." Now, I simply needed to discover which of these forms - pearltongue or purrtongue - was the original one and to find out whether other people knew other words. But, for some reason, at this point, I totally lost interest in pursuing this of research. Today, just for the hell of it, I googled these words and got no hits. However, when I tried "pearl tongue" and "purr tongue," I got one hit each: "pearl tongue" from 2003 and "purr tongue" from 1998. The former is actually defined (cf. UrbanDictionary.com): "Very good at eating pussy. Makes a woman cum[sic] every time when they eat the pussy. A tongue that exites[sic] the women." The latter occurs in the sentence, "... I gave her 'dah purr tongue' ...," spoken by a man. From this, I infer that "pearl tongue" and "purr tongue" not only continue to be synonyms, but also that they have both undergone the same semantic shift, in standard-English slang. Unfortunately, this breaks the direct link between clitoris and tongue (no pun intended). Hopefully, this direct link still exists in BE. Perhaps Clarence Majors can enlighten us. -Wilson Gray From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 19 19:34:10 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:34:10 +0100 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Peter McGraw wrote: > I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and > to use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of > our U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a > preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, > perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which > sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). My elderly British ears demand "preventative", but a perusal of the relevant article in the Third Edition of Fowler suggests that I am out of step with reality. A superficially similar pair that has caused me some problems is "interpretive" - "interpretative". I was a heritage interpreter at one time and this came up frequently, because the interpretation profession here has standardised on "interpretive", but we regularly received complaints that our syncopation was unwarranted. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 19:35:26 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:35:26 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407191149.1bMDcm2Wu3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: "Commenter" is new to me. However, it feels, so to speak, good to me, like "converse" and "conversate." That is, "commenter" seems not to have (yes, "to not have" also takes the meat, IMO) the same meaning as "commentater." "Preventative" annoys me because it seems to have exactly the same meaning as "preventive." Also, if some form from back in the day is going to be revived, why not "aft-" or "backhead" in place of "occiput"? -Wilson Gray On Jul 19, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "preventative" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] >> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:23 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: "preventative" >> >> >> Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > What about "commentator" vs. "commenter"? > From Vocabula at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 20:54:25 2004 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:54:25 EDT Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang Message-ID: It was announced some months ago that volume III of the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang was to be published by Oxford University Press, and that the project would be finished by Oxford. Does anyone know the new timetable for publication, and why Random House abandoned this project? Has Oxford adopted Random House's original goals, expanded them, or diminished them ? Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review _www.vocabula.com_ (http://www.vocabula.com/) From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 19 21:28:27 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:28:27 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407190024.i6J0O11n019407@mxe5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thank you so much for bringing up this word, which I detest. Is it made up, or am I just fussy? Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "preventative" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > > "... preventative services ..." > > Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > > -Wilson Gray > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 19 22:07:10 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:07:10 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Is "hickish" a technical term? Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with "orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. Peter Mc. Maybe just to be more PC you should > say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even > "trailer-trashy" to you. > > dInIs (a hick) > >> I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >> use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >> U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >> preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >> perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >> sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> >> --On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> wrote: >> >>> On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>> "... preventative services ..." >>>> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>> >>> ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>> "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>> common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>> in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>> for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>> spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>> and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>> more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>> >>> also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>> there it is). >>> >>> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 19 22:07:08 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:07:08 -0400 Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang In-Reply-To: <8a.fef1305.2e2d8f01@aol.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower can elaborate, but as I understand it, Random House abandoned HDAS for budgetary reasons. If you need information for publication, questions about Oxford University Press goals are probably best answered over the telephone. Otherwise, in general, content-wise and coverage-wise, we have maintained the original Random House goals. One area where we are expanding is in promoting the project, which Random House did poorly in some areas and not at all in others. Volume III, P through part of S, is scheduled for publication in the second half of 2006. Volume IV, the rest of S through Z and a huge biblography, is scheduled for 2008. -- Grant Barrett Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Oxford University Press 198 Madison Avenue New York, NY 10016 grant.barrett at oup.com 212 726 6142 > It was announced some months ago that volume III of the Random House > Historical Dictionary of American Slang was to be published by Oxford > University > Press, and that the project would be finished by Oxford. Does anyone > know the > new timetable for publication, and why Random House abandoned this > project? Has > Oxford adopted Random House's original goals, expanded them, or > diminished > them ? From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 22:44:13 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:44:13 EDT Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Ever heard either of these? From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 23:00:39 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:00:39 EDT Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Dang it! I can't believe that for a second time this week I've attempted to forward something from ADS to a friend and had it turn up on the listserv instead. I'm sorry, people. I think there's a glitch in AOL. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Truly sorry. Lindsie Tucker From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 23:09:03 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:09:03 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090249630@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Lighten up. >--On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Is "hickish" a technical term? > >Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as >close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) >stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in >Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, >at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. > >I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" >button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the >use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of >Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these >responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence >wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with >"orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. > >Peter Mc. > >Maybe just to be more PC you should >>say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even >>"trailer-trashy" to you. >> >>dInIs (a hick) >> >>>I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >>>use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >>>U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >>>preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >>>perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >>>sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>> >>>--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> >>>>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>>>"... preventative services ..." >>>>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>>> >>>>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>>>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>>>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>>>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>>>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>>>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>>>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>>>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>>> >>>>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>>>there it is). >>>> >>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Jul 20 02:02:44 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:02:44 -0400 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 "... preventative services ..." Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. -Wilson Gray ========================================================================= Hardly a hapax legomenon. See the list below from Bartleby's. The Army Commendation Medal (for service) was awarded for little more than keeping your nose clean and going along with the program--if a Good Conduct Medal is a D, the ARCOM is a gentleman's C. I knew a guy whose job was processing recommendations to ARCOMs who consistently referred to the Army "Accommodation" Medal. I thought at first he was being sarcastic and subversive, but it turned out he just didn't know "commendation" is a word. Seán Fitzpatrick It's a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ 1) preventative. Roget s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995. ...Defending against disease: preventive, prophylactic, protective. See ALLOW. 2. Intended to prevent: deterrent, preclusive, preventive. See ALLOW.... 2) preventative. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. ...ADJECTIVE & Variant of preventive.... 1) preventative, preventive. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993 ...two are synonyms, and each is Standard as both adjective and noun: She practices preventive [preventative] medicine-if you can call eating an apple a day a preventative... 2) Formations. Fowler, H. W. 1908. The King's English ...Innumerable other needless lengthenings might be produced, from which we choose only preventative for preventive, and to experimentalize for to experiment. On the... From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Jul 20 02:12:14 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:12:14 -0500 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Some years ago I had a consultation from a cardiovascular pathologist about an enlarged heart in which he used the term "dilatated" in about a half dozen places. He was annoyed when I used a red pen and crossed out all his extra "AT"s and sent it back to me wanting changes. When I went through again and made all the words read "dilatatated" he was REALLY mad because he finally figured out I was making fun of him. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 20 11:54:43 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:54:43 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: With all the discussion lately about syntactic blends, i suppose it was only a matter of time before i caught myself in one. So, in the interest of adding to people's collections, here it is: This morning, Jeanne (my wife) and i were discussing how urgent our laundry situation was. In saying that, at least for my clothes, it wasn't at an *absolutely* critical point, i said: I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. As i said it, i realized that i'd been trying to say both "...one day's worth of clean..." and "...one day's clean...", but i managed to say neither. The interesting thing about this is that if i'd said "I've got more than two days' of clean clothes" (also true, FWIW), i'd've been making the same blend error, but it would have been completely transparent to the hearer. Of course, as it was, Jeanne didn't blink an eye at it, making me wonder if she even perceived it as a speech error (i didn't think to ask)--or maybe she's just used to hearing me use weird syntax, since i am after all a linguist. But it made me wonder if "of" has some sort of weird property in these, since lots of the blands that have been reported here seem to be built around that word. Could it be that these aren't errors as much as some sort of syntactic change, heralded by the commonly reported writing error "I would of done that", reanalyzed from "I would've done that"? Maybe some of these--note: I'm not claiming *all* of these--aren't actually errors at all. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 13:25:00 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: There was a little girl And she had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good, she was very, very good. But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Jul 20 14:21:37 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:21:37 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090249630@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: OK, a reply: I don't think any of the "-ated" forms are regional, or necessarily rural, and I've never thought of them as "hickish"--whatever that means. At 03:07 PM 7/19/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Is "hickish" a technical term? > >Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as >close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) >stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in >Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, >at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. > >I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" >button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the >use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of >Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these >responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence >wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with >"orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. > >Peter Mc. > >Maybe just to be more PC you should >>say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even >>"trailer-trashy" to you. >> >>dInIs (a hick) >> >>>I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >>>use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >>>U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >>>preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >>>perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >>>sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>> >>>--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> >>>>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>>>"... preventative services ..." >>>>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>>> >>>>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>>>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>>>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>>>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>>>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>>>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>>>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>>>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>>> >>>>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>>>there it is). >>>> >>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 20 15:02:32 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:02:32 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <33CDE924-DA50-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >There was a little girl >And she had a little curl >Right in the middle of her forehead. >When she was good, she was very, very good. >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ Horrid. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 20 15:42:22 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:42:22 -0600 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It rhymes in British English. Brits would say something like 'fore at d' (@ = schwa) for 'forehead'. Victoria > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of sagehen > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > > >There was a little girl > >And she had a little curl > >Right in the middle of her forehead. > >When she was good, she was very, very good. > >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > > >-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ > Horrid. > AM > Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jul 20 15:43:01 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:43:01 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 at 9:25 AM -0500 wrote: >she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? Must be horrid for the stress. Aren't all of the bogus ones spoken with major stress on the first syllable (secondary stress on the second syllable) and with a different juncture between syllables? After all, forehead in British English where the rhyme comes to us from, is FOREhead (with tertiary stress on the final syllable). Flames to me, not the list. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jul 20 14:52:25 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:52:25 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <33CDE924-DA50-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >There was a little girl >And she had a little curl >Right in the middle of her forehead. >When she was good, she was very, very good. >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >-Wilson Gray Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). Barbara Need From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 15:57:26 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:57:26 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say "forrid". You don't have to be British. Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A nursery rhyme ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There was a little girl And she had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good, she was very, very good. But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jul 20 16:50:08 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:50:08 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) In-Reply-To: <05e401c46e50$a2d2f5b0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: This does not strike me as a parallel difficulty at all: I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. is like I've got more than two days' of clean clothes but very different from I've got more than two days of clean clothes which is like I've got more than one day of clean clothes. And neither of these latter two strike me as odd (We had more than one day/two days of good weather). dInIs >With all the discussion lately about syntactic blends, i suppose it was only >a matter of time before i caught myself in one. So, in the interest of >adding to people's collections, here it is: > >This morning, Jeanne (my wife) and i were discussing how urgent our laundry >situation was. In saying that, at least for my clothes, it wasn't at an >*absolutely* critical point, i said: > > I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. > >As i said it, i realized that i'd been trying to say both "...one day's >worth of clean..." and "...one day's clean...", but i managed to say >neither. > >The interesting thing about this is that if i'd said "I've got more than two >days' of clean clothes" (also true, FWIW), i'd've been making the same blend >error, but it would have been completely transparent to the hearer. > >Of course, as it was, Jeanne didn't blink an eye at it, making me wonder if >she even perceived it as a speech error (i didn't think to ask)--or maybe >she's just used to hearing me use weird syntax, since i am after all a >linguist. > >But it made me wonder if "of" has some sort of weird property in these, >since lots of the blands that have been reported here seem to be built >around that word. Could it be that these aren't errors as much as some sort >of syntactic change, heralded by the commonly reported writing error "I >would of done that", reanalyzed from "I would've done that"? Maybe some of >these--note: I'm not claiming *all* of these--aren't actually errors at all. > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 18:30:38 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:30:38 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720155727.85447.qmail@web61302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No way to make this rhyme work for me :( --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > "forrid". > > You don't have to be British. > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A nursery rhyme > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There was a little girl > And she had a little curl > Right in the middle of her forehead. > When she was good, she was very, very good. > But when she was bad, she was > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 18:34:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:34:59 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407200759.1bMW572Hy3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:02 AM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> There was a little girl >> And she had a little curl >> Right in the middle of her forehead. >> When she was good, she was very, very good. >> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >> -Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ > Horrid. > AM > Works for me, but not for our all-too-numerous language compatriots who say "fore head" and not "forrid"? To my despair, I've found that some of these speakers don't even realize that there was ever even supposed to be a rhyme. I've found the same reaction among Canadians who've learned the Alphabet Song and sing "w, x, y, and zed": just a vague feeling that something may be wrong, though they "know" that their usage is "correct," just as I "know" that their usage is "incorrect." Well, I give Canadians the benefit of the doubt. But, what can you do? One of my best friends - only a decade-and-a-half younger than I - refuses to believe that "CaribBEan" was ever the standard American-English pronunciation of "CaRIbbean." It's just too bad for me that English didn't cease to evolve after May 1, 1954, when I completed what was essentially a twelve-year course in "Standard" English as a Second Dialect. Hmm. It's just occurred to me that my position is quite hypocritical, given that I myself have never been persuaded that there's any need to distinguish E from I in the environment before a nasal consonant. Context is sufficient to distinguish, e.g. "10 cans" from "tin cans." As Anna Rosannadanna used to say, "Never mind." -Wilson Gray From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jul 20 18:52:27 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:52:27 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$3v0h8@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: > > >> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? You could spell it horid or whored, with two syllables, as in "Banished, banished, Romeo is banished." ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jul 20 19:50:12 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:50:12 EDT Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: Though most people in the US today say "FOR hed" DARE tells us that this is a spelling pronunciation that has pirated the traditional pronunciation without the /h/. The vowel can be either /a/ (found on the E.Coast) or whatever vowel you use in 'for' -- and of course the same goes for 'horrid'. Most Americans have the vowel of 'for' (open o or /o/) but on the E. Coast it's often /a/. Loss of /h/ was not unusual after a stressed syllable--vehicle, annihilate. Dale Coye The College of NJ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 20:07:53 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:07:53 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201130.1bMZnX2ld3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 2:30 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No > way to make this rhyme work for me :( > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: I use open o in both cases. Forgetting how old I am, I assumed that everybody still learns this rhyme before learning to read. Therefore, what I was trying to get at was what would motivate a person to switch to the spelling pronunciation after learning to read, given that the reader already knows the "correct" pronunciation and that the spelling pronunciation destroys both the rhyme and the rhythm of the nursery rhyme. There are many (Does anyone ever pronounce this as "may-nee," as is permitted by the spelling? Cf. "zany.") other extraordinary intricacies of English spelling that have had no effect on pronunciation. But, from some of the responses, it appears that this nursery rhyme is no longer - if ever it was - universally learned at one's (grand)mother's knee. I learned it with the "forrid-horrid" rhyme from my late grandmother, who was born in Longview, TX, in 1898 and who didn't use "fore-head" even in ordinary speech. I've long wondered why a victim of an early 20th-century "separate-but-equal" education in the piney backwoods of East Texas would know and use the "correct" pronunciation, whereas people with late 20th-century Ivy-League educations have just as consistently come to use the "incorrect" pronunciation. [On a re-run of "Frazier," Dad has just said, "It's going to be you and I." Frazier immediately "corrects" him: "Dad, 'It's going to be you and ME!'" "Et tu, Brute?!" I can only hope that Dad blew his line and Frazier covered for him.] -Wilson Gray >> I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say >> "forrid". >> >> You don't have to be British. >> >> >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A nursery rhyme >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> There was a little girl >> And she had a little curl >> Right in the middle of her forehead. >> When she was good, she was very, very good. >> But when she was bad, she was >> horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 20 20:12:39 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:12:39 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >>There was a little girl >>And she had a little curl >>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >>-Wilson Gray > >Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 20 20:37:39 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:37:39 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: > > >>There was a little girl > >>And she had a little curl > >>Right in the middle of her forehead. > >>When she was good, she was very, very good. > >>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >> > >>-Wilson Gray > > > >Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something > >like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). > > No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) > >Bethany Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm reminded of Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, 'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." This is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You ought better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with the general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good as 'I dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. From jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:18:55 2004 From: jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU (Jeanelle Barrett) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:18:55 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720183038.48031.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My British mother (London, 1937 to 1963) says [far at d] and [har at d], and they rhymed just fine ( My family knows the rhyme well). I, on the other hand, had to consciously change my pronunciation of [far at d] to the more recognizable American English "forehead" when I went to school (Oklahoma). To this day I say [har at b@l] and not the "open o" that most people articulate in "horrible" in these parts. I had to stop reciting that rhyme or risk getting the mickey taken out of me. Cruel! At 11:30 AM 7/20/2004 -0700, you wrote: >But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No >way to make this rhyme work for me :( > >--- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > > "forrid". > > > > You don't have to be British. > > > > > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: A nursery rhyme > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > There was a little girl > > And she had a little curl > > Right in the middle of her forehead. > > When she was good, she was very, very good. > > But when she was bad, she was > > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ******************** Dr. Jeanelle Barrett Assistant Professor of English Coordinator, Graduate Program in English Department of English and Languages Tarleton State University P.O. Box T-0300 Stephenville, Texas 76402 Office: 254-968-9319 Fax: 254-968-1931 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 21:32:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:32:33 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was ridiculed out of it. Massachusetts-born novelist John Dos Passos has a character in his WWI novel "Three Soldiers" (1921) talking about the "Oregon Forest," i.e. the Argonne. JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No way to make this rhyme work for me :( --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > "forrid". > > You don't have to be British. > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A nursery rhyme > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There was a little girl > And she had a little curl > Right in the middle of her forehead. > When she was good, she was very, very good. > But when she was bad, she was > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:38:31 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:38:31 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040720162227.01d75228@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >> >>>>There was a little girl >>>>And she had a little curl >>>>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>> >>>>-Wilson Gray >>> >>>Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>>like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >> >> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >>w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >> >>Bethany Not normally in my speech (OH, MA, PA, WI, Chicago, SD, Chicago) >Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm reminded of >Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye >reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, >'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." This >is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You ought >better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with the >general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good as 'I >dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of >acceptability. He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, >in the context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, >they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. Actually, I'm not sure how I learned the poem (though I certainly learned it, being a little girl with a curl and a temper), but I do remember learning that _forehead_ and _horrid_ rhymed and it surprised me. Barbara From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:50:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:50:19 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720213233.65352.qmail@web61306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Now that's a first for me! The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the native [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations cited above. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was > ridiculed out of it. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Tue Jul 20 21:56:18 2004 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:56:18 -0400 Subject: "Sunday bests"? Message-ID: I have a student from Tryon, N.C., who claims that he and his neighbors regularly say "wearing their Sunday bests" rather than "Sunday best." I'm also from N.C., though a different part, and I've never heard anyone anywhere say this. Does anyone know if this is an actual usage, or is the student merely making an excuse for his bad proofreading? Alan Baragona From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 20 22:22:44 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:44 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up Message-ID: Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on Iraqi intelligence." Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get things all fouled up"? Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. As to etymology, dunno." I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would anyone on ads-l have anything to add? Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 20 23:24:31 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to >hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", >i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this >expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on >Iraqi intelligence." I believe this is a humorous alteration or partial euphemism for "f*ck the dog". It has exactly the same two meanings, viz. (1) "goof off", (2) "goof up". See HDAS "fuck the dog", under "dog". There are other versions, e.g., "screw the mutt" and particularly the sophomoric "intercourse the canine". "Screw the pooch" has become popular in recent years, I think. I remember it being used in the "goof up" sense in the movie "True Lies" (Gov. Arnold's best IMHO). -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jul 20 23:35:45 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:35:45 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720191118.02f40b40@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under discussion; it seems semantically off. dInIs >> >>Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to >>hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", >>i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this >>expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on >>Iraqi intelligence." > >I believe this is a humorous alteration or partial euphemism for "f*ck the >dog". It has exactly the same two meanings, viz. (1) "goof off", (2) >"goof up". > >See HDAS "fuck the dog", under "dog". > >There are other versions, e.g., "screw the mutt" and particularly the >sophomoric "intercourse the canine". > >"Screw the pooch" has become popular in recent years, I think. I remember >it being used in the "goof up" sense in the movie "True Lies" (Gov. >Arnold's best IMHO). > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 23:39:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201312.1bN0YG5nR3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:12 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: > >>> There was a little girl >>> And she had a little curl >>> Right in the middle of her forehead. >>> When she was good, she was very, very good. >>> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >> >> Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >> like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). > > No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme > w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) > > Bethany Testify! -Wilson Gray From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Jul 21 00:01:37 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:37 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <200407202233.i6KMXd112474@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." The phrase appears repeatedly in the book _The Right Stuff_; it is put in the mouth of, among others, John Glenn. This would fit the attribution to 1950s test pilots. I don't know how reliable a source the book is as regards transcription of conversations, though. Jim Parish From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 21 00:38:17 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:38:17 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <19F35CB4-DAA6-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Wilson Gray wrote: >Testify! > >-Wilson Gray Yes, brother! Join me! Beth'ny Kay From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 00:41:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201345.1bN1um1bk3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:37 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >> >>>> There was a little girl >>>> And she had a little curl >>>> Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>> When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>> like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >> >> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >> w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >> >> Bethany > > Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm > reminded of > Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye > reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, > 'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." > This > is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You > ought > better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with > the > general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good > as 'I > dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. > He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the > context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, > they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. > I, of course, say "forrid." However, on the other hand, who on earth says, or even writes, "You ought better (to) do it," nowadays? And, FWIW, in BE, The past of "You/you'd/you had/ better do it" is "You better had done it." -Wilson Gray From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jul 21 01:03:41 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:03:41 -0700 Subject: believe them say Message-ID: the ever-alert laura staum came across the following today (while looking at complement-taking verbs): >> Consider the fact that your salesperson might work on commission >> before you believe them say, "Omigod, your butt looks great in >> those!" this looks like "believe them say" was intended to convey 'believe them when they say'. i almost failed to notice the oddity, though. no relevant google web hits on "believe them say" or "believe him say" or "believe me say". two possibles for "believe her say": The Fabulous Six Youth Movement ... then he couldn't believe her say: I think i'm ready to go all the way. that's when we started to smell trouble, cause our man was like in a glass bubble. ... wso.williams.edu/~ganthes/fab6/ carnal_anima's Xanga Site ... swimming at ryan's. yes. thug lovin': i wish that *just once*, i could ask a girl "ya feelin' me?" and be able to truly believe her say "f'sho". ... xanga.com/carnal_anima examples with non-pronominal objects are much harder to search for, alas. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 21 01:33:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:33:26 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: A question from over at the Straight Dope. I call on your help. We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the 1820's(and before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class that in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. I can't offer more than that. Is the poster correct about Spanish? If so, why the color difference? When did it occur? Sam Clements From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 21 01:35:32 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:35:32 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Odd=20expression:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?"screw=20the=20pooch"=20=3D=20get=20things=20all=20fouled?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20up?= Message-ID: We used "fuck the dog" = 'goof off, not do one's work when one should' in the English Department in grad school (Iowa City 1960s). In a message dated 7/20/04 7:35:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the > Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big > brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under > discussion; it seems semantically off. > > dInIs > From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 01:35:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: "Sunday bests"? Message-ID: >I have a student from Tryon, N.C., who claims that he and his neighbors >regularly say "wearing their Sunday bests" rather than "Sunday best." I'm >also from N.C., though a different part, and I've never heard anyone >anywhere say this. Does anyone know if this is an actual usage, or is the >student merely making an excuse for his bad proofreading? Google gives six examples of "my sunday bests", and they look genuine to me. It seems OK to me, although I don't know whether I've heard/read it before or not. The "-s" looks to me like the "-s" from (implied/elided) "clothes", as in "my sweats" = "my sweat clothes", "my grubbies" = "my grubby clothes" (these I have heard for sure) ... I'm not certain whether "my dress whites" is analogous (= "my dress white clothes") or not. -- Doug Wilson From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Jul 21 01:42:24 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: I see these as essentially identical in meaning: I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes or I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" I've got more than two days' of clean clothes but very different from I've got more than two days of clean clothes which is like I've got more than one day of clean clothes. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jul 21 02:10:09 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:10:09 -0500 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have just seen a Jif Peanut Butter commercial for the umpteenth time in which a little girl, having made a peanut butter sandwich to share with her friend on a sleep over, asks if her mother cuts it "down the middle or across". The answer is across and the sandwich is cut diagonally. For me, at best, these two directions would be perpendicular, that is vertically or horizontally (if you can picture this). Does anyone else have the diagonal interpretation? Barbara From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jul 21 02:12:50 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <000801c46ec2$b8bd6ff0$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >A question from over at the Straight Dope. I call on your help. > >We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the >1820's(and before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's >excellent write up at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm > >A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class >that in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. > >I can't offer more than that. Is the poster correct about Spanish? >If so, why the color difference? When did it occur? > >Sam Clements It is certainly green in Spanish, though I don't know why or when. Barbara From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 02:25:35 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:25:35 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <000801c46ec2$b8bd6ff0$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the 1820's(and >before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up at >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm > >A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class that >in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. > >.... Is the poster correct about Spanish? Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross ignorance of Spanish. I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. >If so, why the color difference? I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is somewhat comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers more-or-less to soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue movie[s]" in English. According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence "forward"/"shameless". Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable possibility which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add anything to Quinion's piece right now. Corrections are welcome as always. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 03:12:56 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:12:56 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <200407201925.1bN6NN5C23NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the >> 1820's(and >> before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up >> at >> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm >> >> A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class >> that >> in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. >> >> .... Is the poster correct about Spanish? > > Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross > ignorance of Spanish. > > I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy > dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. > >> If so, why the color difference? > > I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is > somewhat > comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers > more-or-less to > soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue > movie[s]" > in English. If memory serves, "blue movies" featured what we now call "hard-core" - sexual acts are portrayed in all their power and glory, not merely hinted at - pornography, not soft-core. To acquire such a flick, you had to know somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. At least, that was the case in Saint Louis, home of both a Catholic archbishopric and the most conservative branch of American Lutheranism, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. -Wilson Gray > > According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = > "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence > "forward"/"shameless". > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer > simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable > possibility > which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely > IMHO). > > The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add > anything to Quinion's piece right now. Given that there was once a popular song titled "Alice Blue Gown," a favorite of my grandmother, the wife of a presiding elder of the Methodist Church - written in 1919 and still available on 78's down into the early 'Forties - I doubt that there is any direct connection, in US English, at least, between the wearing of blue gowns by prostitutes and the use of "blue" as a synonym for "obscene." -Wilson Gray > > Corrections are welcome as always. > > -- Doug Wilson > From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Jul 21 03:28:51 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:28:51 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$33hemc@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: chistes verdes = dirty jokes viejo verde = dirty old man What other instances of "verde" or "green" have you seen in Spanish? Carolina P.S. Everyone I knew back in Texas would say fore-head. I thought forrid was a Brtishism, like hoggarts for Hogwarts. ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 21 04:21:47 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:21:47 -0600 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember it from Colombia in the mid 60s, but only in the phrase 'chistes verdes'; i.e. "green" jokes, which means simply dirty jokes. That is, not quite as serious as the connotation, to me, of 'obscene.' I don't recall anyone, Spanish or English speaker, offering a reason for the difference in color. I don't know if Spanish has the equivalent meaning of English 'color,' as in 'off-color joke.' Victoria On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:13 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > > It is certainly green in Spanish, though I don't know why or when. > > Barbara > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 21 04:29:03 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:29:03 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: Doug, Just so I don't misunderstand--the Spanish dictionary cites the "obscene" (or some such) meaning from 1852? As usual, I value your input. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >.... Is the poster correct about Spanish? > > Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross > ignorance of Spanish. > > I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy > dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. > > >If so, why the color difference? > > I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is somewhat > comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers more-or-less to > soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue movie[s]" > in English. > > According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = > "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence > "forward"/"shameless". > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer > simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable possibility > which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). > > The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add > anything to Quinion's piece right now. > > Corrections are welcome as always. > > -- Doug Wilson > From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 05:27:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:27:00 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <001501c46edb$41175d80$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >the Spanish dictionary cites the "obscene" >(or some such) meaning from 1852? Yes. <> So here "verde" ("green") is the color of grass, and a bunch of other things including "Loose, immodest, obscene: applied to stories, writings, poems, etc.", and (separate sense) "One who maintains inclinations or habits inappropriate to his age or status; as, [green old man], [green widow]." [My own casual and dubious translation] Essentially the same items are in the 1992 edition. Here the "dirty/sprightly old man" and the "merry widow" do not fall under the "obscene" sense, but I believe there might be a transitional sense between "youthful" and "wanton"/"licentious" as I said above. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 21 05:45:02 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:02 -0500 Subject: Another nursery rhyme Message-ID: How long is it since this rhymed in "correct" speech in either the US or the UK? Polly put the kettle on, Polly put the kettle on, Polly put the kettle on, They've all come to tea. Polly take the kettle off, Polly take the kettle off, Polly take the kettle off, They've all gone away. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 21 06:06:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:06:49 EDT Subject: Smoke-filled room (1915, 1920) Message-ID: MISC. www.barrypopik.com: More stuff on the website. "Brownie/Meter Maid," "bodega." www.wordspy.com: Where is Paul? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SMOKE-FILLED ROOM With the Republican National Convention coming to New York, I thought I'd take another look at "smoke-filled room." (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/10/12/2003071408 Candidates commence alliterative assault with resonant rhetoricBy William Safire NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , NEW YORK Sunday, Oct 12, 2003,Page 9 Nobody has yet approached the alliterative heights of President Warren G. Harding. Not only did he coin the phrase founding fathers -- since edited to founders to escape sexism -- but the only newspaper publisher to reach the White House also set the high standard to which subsequent generations of alliterators have aspired to attain. Ohio's favorite son emerged from the famed "smoke-filled room" to rally the nation to "not heroics but healing; not nostrums but normalcy; not revolution but restoration; not agitation but adjustment; not surgery but serenity; not the dramatic but the dispassionate; not experiment but equipoise." (WWW.BARTLEBY.COM) The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002. smoke-filled room A popular expression used to describe a place where the political wheeling and dealing of machine bosses (see machine politics) is conducted. The image originated during the Republican presidential nominating convention of 1920, in which Warren G. Harding emerged as a dark horse candidate. 1 (OED) 1920 Evening Star (Washington) 14 June 1/2 Harry Daugherty..predicted that about 2.11 a.m., ‘in a *smoke~filled room’, on a certain night during the republican national convention, the next nominee would be chosen. 1965 G. MCINNES Road to Gundagai v. 77 These damp and smokefilled holes. 1979 Now! 21-27 Sept. 74/3 Presidential candidates are not selected by political pros in smoke-filled rooms these days. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 14 February 1915, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 6: Candidates have not been required to talk in smoke filled rooms, and they have not been disturbed by the boisterous conduct of men and boys in the approaches to the halls. 11 June 1920, New York Times, pg. 2: The home (illegible--ed.) roared approval of the work that had been done by a few men in a smoke-filled room. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("smoke-filled room" and "nominate") Lima News Tuesday, June 15, 1920 Lima, Ohio ...he predicted that about a. a SMOKE-FILLED ROOM" on a certain night, during.....It was the plan of the Old Guard to NOMINATE Lowden but the Missouri expose.. From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 11:08:47 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:08:47 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) In-Reply-To: <086601c46ec3$fbc53520$585f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: >Sorry; I thought you were talking about the morpho-syntax; I agree >that they are (roughly) semantically-pragmatically the same. dInIs >I see these as essentially identical in meaning: >I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes >or >I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >I've got more than two days' of clean clothes > >but very different from > >I've got more than two days of clean clothes > >which is like > >I've got more than one day of clean clothes. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 11:20:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:20:44 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, yeah. English Departments. I forgot. dInIs >We used "fuck the dog" = 'goof off, not do one's work when one should' in the >English Department in grad school (Iowa City 1960s). > >In a message dated 7/20/04 7:35:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the >> Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big >> brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under >> discussion; it seems semantically off. >> >> dInIs >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jul 21 11:21:45 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:21:45 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: From: Dave Hause : From: "Dennis R. Preston" :: I've got more than two days' of clean clothes :: but very different from :: I've got more than two days of clean clothes :: which is like :: I've got more than one day of clean clothes. : I see these as essentially identical in meaning: : I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes : or : I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes I'll agree with Dennis that there's a difference (though slight) on this one, as far as my intuitions go, but i'd also note that there's no way for a listener to be able to tell the difference between them. I *do* think, though, that there's a difference between (1) I've got more than one day's of clean clothes and either of (2) I've got more than two days' of clean clothes (3) I've got more than two days of clean clothes Whereas--purely from personal intuitions here--(2) and (3) are both perfectly acceptable, (1) is at best questionable to me, and if i were marking sentences as grammatical or not for a theoretical syntactic study, i would probably give (1) a full asterisk. I have no idea why the difference in intuition exists. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 21 13:30:41 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:30:41 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090335019@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: I still say [ar at g@n] (SE Penna.) and I'm gonna keep saying it. Damn the natives. Ed --- "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > Now that's a first for me! > > The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail > from the state is > [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in > contrast to the native > [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the > variant you report > using, which sounds like a blend of the two > "furriner" pronunciations cited > above. > > Peter Mc. > > --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan > Lighter > wrote: > > > Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n > {Oregon) too till I was > > ridiculed out of it. > > > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College > McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu > ************************ > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 21 13:49:11 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:49:11 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: In the early 1990s, my daughters and a guest from Barcelona, Spain, visited HersheyPark, in (next door) Hershey, PA. When an announcement was made about the HersheyPark Green Team, the Barcelona visitor, a teenager, was perplexed, and asked for a clarification. She noted that, in Spain, green was often used to refer to things such as dirty old men. Since our visitor was familiar with Sesame Street, I later asked if she had ever heard Kermit the Frog singing "It's Not Easy Being Green". She said that she hadn't heard that particular song on Spanish TV. Some info on the HersheyPark Green Team at: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/polycomm/update/06-09-00/06090025.htm In an interview, it is noted that "Hersheypark is 'clean, green, family fun.'" In paragraph 6: [Also, note the usage of both 'Hershey Park' and 'Hersheypark'.] http://www.onridecentral.com/interviews/?interviewID=7 OT: I wrote to HersheyPark management, inquiring about the possibility of using multi-language signage in the park. I also noted that their gate guards inadvertently used the international traffic hand signal for 'move forward', when they were actually trying to get a van to back up. The Spanish speakers in the van kept edging forward, while the guards just shouted louder, and continued waving their hands back and forth. One translation of the response letter could be 'get lost'. George Cole Shippensburg University From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 14:12:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:12:06 -0400 Subject: Another nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407202245.1bN9UX3iO3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:45 AM, Dan Goodman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goodman > Subject: Another nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How long is it since this rhymed in "correct" speech in either the US > or > the UK? > > Polly put the kettle on, > Polly put the kettle on, > Polly put the kettle on, > They've all come to tea. > > Polly take the kettle off, > Polly take the kettle off, > Polly take the kettle off, > They've all gone away. > > -- > Dan Goodman > Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or > http://dsgood.blogspot.com > All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. > John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. Well, I guess the fact that "tea" once rhymed with "(a)way" explains why the Irish word for "tea" is "tae" (approx. "tay") and not "taoi" (approx. "tee"). -Wilson Gray > From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Wed Jul 21 14:39:45 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:39:45 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <200407202233.i6KMXdLD022321@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: My favorite example of this saying comes from the film "Stand By Me", based on a short story by Stephen King. Teddy says, "Gordy screwed the pooch", I think. I'm not sure if the expression is in the book, too, but I seem to remember the events are supposed to be set in the late 50s or early 60s. I also think it's in the film The Right Stuff based on Tom Wolfe's book. Rachel Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." > > Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the > 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the > original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get > things all fouled up"? > > Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager > where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: > "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by > test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft > when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. > As to etymology, dunno." > > I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would > anyone on ads-l have anything to add? > > Gerald Cohen -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 21 15:56:54 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:56:54 -0700 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up Message-ID: No evidence for "screw the pooch" has surfaced before "The Right Stuff." It is now rather commonplace. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Re: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My favorite example of this saying comes from the film "Stand By Me", based on a short story by Stephen King. Teddy says, "Gordy screwed the pooch", I think. I'm not sure if the expression is in the book, too, but I seem to remember the events are supposed to be set in the late 50s or early 60s. I also think it's in the film The Right Stuff based on Tom Wolfe's book. Rachel Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." > > Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the > 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the > original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get > things all fouled up"? > > Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager > where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: > "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by > test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft > when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. > As to etymology, dunno." > > I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would > anyone on ads-l have anything to add? > > Gerald Cohen -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 21 16:27:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:27:49 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:41 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:37 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >>> >>>>>There was a little girl >>>>>And she had a little curl >>>>>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>>>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>>>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>>> >>>>>-Wilson Gray >>>> >>>>Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>>>like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >>> >>> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >>>w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >>> >>>Bethany >> >>Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm >>reminded of >>Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye >>reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, >>'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." >>This >>is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You >>ought >>better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with >>the >>general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good >>as 'I >>dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. >> He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the >>context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, >>they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. > >I, of course, say "forrid." However, on the other hand, who on earth >says, or even writes, "You ought better (to) do it," nowadays? And, >FWIW, in BE, The past of "You/you'd/you had/ better do it" is "You >better had done it." > >-Wilson Gray That's Bloomfield's point, of course: Who dictates what's "good" and "bad"? BTW, if people no longer know this article, it appeared in Vol. 2 of _American Speech_, in 1927 (no, I wasn't alive then). I have my Sociolinguistics class read it every year. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jul 21 16:20:16 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:20:16 -0500 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" > might refer simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less > mentionable possibility which might seem superficially > plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). Does Japanese use their word for pink as a euphemism for vagina, as in "stinky pinky"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 21 17:30:17 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:30:17 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090335019@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >Now that's a first for me! I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). larry >The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the native >[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations cited >above. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>ridiculed out of it. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 19:33:20 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:33:20 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407211030.1bNkV954C3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Now that's a first for me! > > I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the > first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of > it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. > (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively > rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme > (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected > "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before > all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a > forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed > to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to > [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). > > larry Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local "accent." -Wilson > >> The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >> [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >> native >> [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >> using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >> cited >> above. >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> >>> Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>> ridiculed out of it. >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 21 20:08:21 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:08:21 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Now that's a first for me! >> >>I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>(when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>(which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>"forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>[or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >> >>larry > >Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into >saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >together with "fart(y)"? No, I didn't know anyone who did this until I met someone from Utah who claimed to pronounce "fort" and "fart" the way the rest of pronounced "fart" and "fort" respectively. For me, the vowel in "forest" and that in "fort" were entirely distinct, the latter being open o. As for "FARRist", I guess there were no Omahans in Rochester, because all the non-NYC kids at the U. of R. viewed that vowel as a shibboleth of the NYC accent--in particular, in the context of the "CARRidors"...er, corridors we lived on. larry >I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha >specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >"accent." > >-Wilson > >> >>>The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>native >>>[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >>>using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >>>cited >>>above. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>ridiculed out of it. >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 21:53:19 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) Therefore, the representation of FARRist versus FOURist is not a good pair to illustrate homophony since the two are distinct. As usual, folk facts are not up to this level of sophistication, and even locals use fourty-four as a joke phrase (farty-far) which,in local performance, does not in fact happen. Luckily, Jill Goodheart at MSU (goodhear at msu.edu)has just finished an important study of St. Louis vowels (confirming, by the way, Labov's observation of the presence of the Northern Cities Shift there) so we have up-to-date acoustic information of these facts. dInIs >On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Now that's a first for me! >> >>I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>(when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>(which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>"forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>[or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >> >>larry > >Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into >saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha >specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >"accent." > >-Wilson > >> >>>The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>native >>>[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >>>using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >>>cited >>>above. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>ridiculed out of it. >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 02:42:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:42:44 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <200407211453.1bNp1H6oh3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: farty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with > farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in > St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which > keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the > hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) Therefore, the > representation of FARRist versus FOURist is not a good pair to > illustrate homophony since the two are distinct. As usual, folk facts > are not up to this level of sophistication, and even locals use > fourty-four as a joke phrase (farty-far) which,in local performance, > does not in fact happen. My pseudo-phonetic representations were clearly less than transparent (no pun intended). I agree entirely with your every observation wrt the Saint Louis dialect. There is no conflict between us. The puerile joke referred to has to do with precisely the fact that "forty-four" is pronounced very much as though spelled "farty-four," leaving open the possibility that "44" might be misconstrued as "farty four." Hence, a sharp-witted listener might say something like, "Only four were farty? Didn't the rest of them eat beans, too?" Such sparkling repartee was considered to be thigh-slappingly funny in the fourth grade. "'FARR-ist' v. 'FOUR-ist'" is not intended to illustrate homophony, but heterophony. The high-school teacher from Omaha was making the claim that the St. Louis dialect was non-standard, using as his exemplar the local pronunciation of "forest." Said local pronunciation sounded, to his ear, something like "FARR-ist," whereas the "correct" pronunciation was far better exemplified by the pronunciation used in his hometown, a noise that sounded to the ears of us St. Louisans like "FOUR-ist," i.e. "4-ist." Needless to say, only his authority as teacher kept us from laughing in his face. What in the world could "4-ist" possibly mean? It certainly couldn't mean "forest"! > Luckily, Jill Goodheart at MSU (goodhear at msu.edu)has just finished an > important study of St. Louis vowels (confirming, by the way, Labov's > observation of the presence of the Northern Cities Shift there) so we > have up-to-date acoustic information of these facts. By the time that I reached high school in 1950, I was already aware that there were then at least four subdialects spoken in St. Louis, two among blacks and two among whites. Blacks from one part of town sounded far less Southern than those from the other part of town. Most whites said "bad," "mad," etc., but some few said - unfortunately, IMO - "be-ad," "me-ad," etc. There were, no doubt, many other distinctions both between and among these subdialects, but these were the ones that I happened to find most salient at the age of 13. -Wilson Gray > > dInIs > >> On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>>> Now that's a first for me! >>> >>> I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>> first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>> it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>> (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>> rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>> (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>> "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>> all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>> forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>> to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>> [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >>> >>> larry >> >> Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >> sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >> As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone >> into >> saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >> together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of >> Omaha >> specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >> example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >> who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >> "accent." >> >> -Wilson >> >>> >>>> The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>> [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>> native >>>> [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you >>>> report >>>> using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" >>>> pronunciations >>>> cited >>>> above. >>>> >>>> Peter Mc. >>>> >>>> --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>> ridiculed out of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ***************************************************************** >>>> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 22 06:28:29 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:28:29 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be primary. I have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all guessed it. Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 13:44:56 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:44:56 EDT Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives Message-ID: Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in formal situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, why couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? Also, doesn't -ing tend to get used in emphatic utterances, especially maybe expletives (e.g, "Arnold are you shitting me or what?"?) I'm not sure what AZ intends to convey by "spontaneous" here, but if he means that Bono's word choice was a premeditated publicity stunt, I'd argue that the choice of -ing rather than -in is too thin a bit of evidence to count for much. In a message dated 6/25/04 12:07:33 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > > has anyone actually listened to this?  if bono said "fucking" rather > than "fuckin'", that would suggest that the expletive wasn't really > spontaneous. > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 14:57:29 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:57:29 -0400 Subject: forehead Message-ID: Back in the middle ages. ie. about 1950 or so a grade school teacher told me that I should never pronounce the h in forehead lest I be considered as illiterate as those who pronounced the word "chimney" chimley. This was in southern Illinois. Page Stephens From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 15:01:27 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:01:27 -0400 Subject: Green, yellow, etc. Message-ID: When I was in grade school in southern Illinois it was common knowledge that if you wore green on Thursday you were homosexual. Later on when I was in graduate school I learned that both the color and the day varied in different parts of the US. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 22 15:37:32 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:37:32 -0400 Subject: Green, yellow, etc. In-Reply-To: <01fe01c46ffc$c3f2af80$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >When I was in grade school in southern Illinois it was common >knowledge that if you wore green on Thursday you were homosexual. > Was Thursday, March 17 exempt? larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 16:01:18 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:01:18 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this interesting dissertation about the word cunt. http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:28 AM Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I > haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be primary. I > have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the > pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all guessed it. > > Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", > supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. > > Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's > "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. > > Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = > "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. > > Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? > > -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 22 16:25:00 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <024201c47005$20361860$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this >interesting dissertation about the word cunt. > >http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html > >Page Stephens > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to inspire confidence: "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the primordial cu- "sound".) Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 18:05:00 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:05:00 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <65.2eea06e0.2e311ed8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > formal > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > why > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with /N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this road.) it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present participles, other things being equal. but the other things include the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was uttering the adverbial expletive. so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said (but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 19:01:27 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:01:27 EDT Subject: down the middle or across Message-ID: Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 22 19:10:26 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:26 -0700 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: That "quintessential femineity" stuff is from Partridge's "Origins," and must not be taken seriously. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this >interesting dissertation about the word cunt. > >http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html > >Page Stephens > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to inspire confidence: "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the primordial cu- "sound".) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 22 19:13:06 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:13:06 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives Message-ID: I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except statistically) here. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: -ing vs. -in' in expletives ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > formal > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > why > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with /N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this road.) it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present participles, other things being equal. but the other things include the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was uttering the adverbial expletive. so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said (but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 19:28:48 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:28:48 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <200407212329.1bNx4O3Oa3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 2:28 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I > haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be > primary. I > have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the > pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all > guessed it. I agree with your presumption that pearltongue is primary. "Pearldiving," except in the literal sense and as an old slang term for washing dishes, is new to me. "Muffdiving," of course, is a relatively old friend. I never heard the term till 1960, when I was 23. > Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", > supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. I've now found the Google cites. I can't understand how I missed them the first time around. Given that I learned the term as a consequence of asking whether there existed a specific BE term for "clitoris," I'm buying the "chiefly black" annotation. But it does bug my head that I *had* to ask, since the woman that I asked was my girl friend and the guy was my what used to be termed "main man." One would expect that one or the other would make use of pearl-/purrtongue in conversation. But they both normally used "clitoris." And it's also the case that I've never heard either "pearltongue" or "purrtongue" spoken ever again by anyone else of whatever race, color, creed, sex, nationality, or sexual orientation. > Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's > "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. Interesting! > Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = > "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. > > Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in the day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. In fact, the OED quotes a line from a novel by Calder Willingham (a hell of a writer; what ever happened to him?) in which "poon tang"[sic] is specifically referred to "Negro girl." -Wilson Gray > -- Doug Wilson > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 22 19:25:38 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:25:38 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <19a.2744dc7f.2e316907@aol.com> Message-ID: No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never called that "across"). At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very very >freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to describe >how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. > >-dsb >Douglas S. Bigham >Department of Linguistics >University of Texas - Austin >http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 22 19:23:26 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:23:26 -0400 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <20040722191306.6226.qmail@web61307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I heard Bono too, and I'm sure he used /N/--he said the word loudly and emphatically: "This is so fucking great!" (or maybe "cool"). At 12:13 PM 7/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic >pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except >statistically) here. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: -ing vs. -in' in expletives >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > > formal > > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > > why > > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? > >i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is >almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, >this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with >/N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic >of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote >some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the >various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this >road.) > >it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present >participles, other things being equal. but the other things include >the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and >infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs >facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a >serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with >masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even >if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these >factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was >uttering the adverbial expletive. > >so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said >(but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i >asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. > >i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ >would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an >entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and >informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to >hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:10:43 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:10:43 EDT Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:21:45 -0400, > David Bowie wrote: > > I *do* think, though, that there's a difference between > > (1) I've got more than one day's of clean clothes > > and either of > > (2) I've got more than two days' of clean clothes > (3) I've got more than two days of clean clothes > > Whereas--purely from personal intuitions here--(2) and (3) are both > perfectly acceptable, (1) is at best questionable to me, and if i were > marking sentences as grammatical or not for a theoretical syntactic study, i > would probably give (1) a full asterisk. The reason you don't accept (1) is quite simple: It sounds like one is saying "one days", that is a plural noun preceded by a singular adjective, which is a grammatical error. - "James Allan Landau-Landau" (that's how my name appears on my birth certificate!) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:40:39 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:40:39 EDT Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" Message-ID: My daughter (who is 17) referred to a male acquaintance as a "douche". This surprised me, since I am acquainted with the term "douche-bag" as a derogatory term for a male whom one holds in contempt, but not with any slang use of the term "douche" without the suffix "bag." This term (or these two terms) is likely to be more widespread than usual through November, judging by the existence of the Web site www. johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com (a site I recommend only for the connoisseur of political correctness and/or incorrectness). "John Kerry is a douche bag" 717 GOOGLE hits same phrase without the word "bag" 91 GOOGLE hits "George Bush is a douche bag" 7 GOOGLE hits "George Bush is a douche" 2 GOOGLE hits which proves (as if anyone doubted) that the Kerry supporters and the Bush supporters don't speak the same language. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:48:44 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:44 EDT Subject: farty Message-ID: In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 > "Dennis R. Preston" writes: > > Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with > farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in > St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which > keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the > hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not rhyme with "course" would sound. "My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse of a different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a different color" appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) - James A. Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:19:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:19:38 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <20040722191306.6226.qmail@web61307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic > pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except > statistically) here. then i stand corrected. apparently hyperarticulate emphasis can override the rest. anybody have some actual data on this? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:23:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152156.011740d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I heard Bono too, and I'm sure he used /N/--he said the word loudly and > emphatically: "This is so fucking great!" (or maybe "cool"). hmmm. before a velar, in either case. just being cautious... arnold From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:37:29 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:37:29 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152352.01d62a00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top half is rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I was a kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the two halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for that, but Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). Peter Mc. --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when > I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never > called that "across"). > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very >> very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words >> to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >> >> -dsb >> Douglas S. Bigham >> Department of Linguistics >> University of Texas - Austin >> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jul 22 21:52:47 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:52:47 -0500 Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" Message-ID: I have been called, and called others, a "douche" (good-naturedly). From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 21:55:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <200407220925.1bNGnv3dy3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:25 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >> Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find >> this >> interesting dissertation about the word cunt. >> >> http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html >> >> Page Stephens >> > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, > but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to > inspire confidence: > > "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded > language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with > femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' > ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." > > > The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded > language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with > femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, > derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" > comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" > wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions > quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the > primordial cu- "sound".) > > Larry Perhaps he's merely a follower of the William Safire school of etymology. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:26:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:26:37 -0400 Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" In-Reply-To: <200407221340.1bNKmZ3wU3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:40 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My daughter (who is 17) referred to a male acquaintance as a "douche". > This > surprised me, since I am acquainted with the term "douche-bag" as a > derogatory > term for a male whom one holds in contempt, but not with any slang use > of the > term "douche" without the suffix "bag." Does your daughter know the literal meaning of "douche [bag]"? I was 17 back in 1954 and even then I didn't know or care [I really wish there was some way to block the rising tide shifting this type of phrase to "didn't know *nor* care"] what a douche bag actually was (in my family, this apparatus was always referred to as a "hot-water bottle"), though I did know that it was insulting to refer to someone that way. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that, if the kid isn't hip to the literal meaning, what would prevent her from arbitrarily deleting "bag" from a phrase whose only real meaning is simply "an insult"? -Wilson Gray > > This term (or these two terms) is likely to be more widespread than > usual > through November, judging by the existence of the Web site www. > johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com > (a site I recommend only for the connoisseur of political correctness > and/or > incorrectness). > > "John Kerry is a douche bag" 717 GOOGLE hits > same phrase without the word "bag" 91 GOOGLE hits > "George Bush is a douche bag" 7 GOOGLE hits > "George Bush is a douche" 2 GOOGLE hits > > which proves (as if anyone doubted) that the Kerry supporters and the > Bush > supporters don't speak the same language. > > - James A. Landau > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:40:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:40:06 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <200407221348.1bNKuT4D83NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:48 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: farty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >> "Dennis R. Preston" writes: >> >> Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >> farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >> St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >> keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >> hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) > > I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse > distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not > rhyme with "course" > would sound. In Saint Louis, you probably wouldn't notice anything strange about "hoarse," but "horse" would probably strike you as sounding a lot like "harse." -Wilson Gray > > "My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse > of a > different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a > different color" > appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) > > - James A. Landau > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:46:31 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:46:31 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090507049@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, leaving two sides? Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no sandwiches on the diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie customs, luckily, later in life, after our family values were well established). dInIs >I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top half is >rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I was a >kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the two >halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for that, but >Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). > >Peter Mc. > >--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when >>I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never >>called that "across"). >> >>At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >>>And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very >>>very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words >>>to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >>> >>>-dsb >>>Douglas S. Bigham >>>Department of Linguistics >>>University of Texas - Austin >>>http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:50:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <200407221236.1bNJmH5Ar3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 3:25 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: down the middle or across > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But > when I > got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never > called > that "across"). I have to testify on your behalf, this time, Beverly. I *still* cut "sangwiches," as they're called in East Texas, horizontally. -Wilson Gray > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it >> diagonally. >> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems >> very very >> freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to >> describe >> how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >> >> -dsb >> Douglas S. Bigham >> Department of Linguistics >> University of Texas - Austin >> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:52:48 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:52:48 -0400 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <12b.46c82b7f.2e31822c@aol.com> Message-ID: You obviously belong to a younger Louisville generation; those taking the language to hell in a handbasket. At one time the hoarse-horse (or four-for) distinction was alive and well in Louisville. "Hoarse" was long-o, the vowel of "coat"; "horse" was open o, the vowel of "caught." Yes, people who don't have the distinction find it hard to imagine. But Northern dip-shits find it hard to imagine I/e conflation before nasals (a Louisville phenomenon live and well), so it's not hard to imagine finding people who find it hard to imagine. dInIs PS: In fact, you could have cited "coarse" - "course." PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. >In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >> "Dennis R. Preston" writes: >> >> Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >> farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >> St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >> keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >> hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) > >I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse >distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not >rhyme with "course" >would sound. > >"My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse of a >different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a >different color" >appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) > > - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:53:54 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:54 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or the Eric Partridge one, probably worse. dInIs >On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:25 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >>>Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find >>>this >>>interesting dissertation about the word cunt. >>> >>>http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html >>> >>>Page Stephens >>> >>Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, >>but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to >>inspire confidence: >> >>"The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded >>language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with >>femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' >>('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." >> >> >>The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded >>language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with >>femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, >>derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" >>comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" >>wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions >>quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the >>primordial cu- "sound".) >> >>Larry > >Perhaps he's merely a follower of the William Safire school of >etymology. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 23:02:17 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:02:17 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <200407221546.1bNMkH6Po3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:46 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: down the middle or across > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >> square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. I remember the square loaves, too. I also remember that such a loaf was called "sandwich bread." -Wilson Gray > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, > leaving two sides? > > Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no sandwiches on the > diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie customs, luckily, later > in life, after our family values were well established). > > dInIs > > > > > >> I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top >> half is >> rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I >> was a >> kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the >> two >> halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for >> that, but >> Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan >> wrote: >> >>> No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But >>> when >>> I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I >>> never >>> called that "across"). >>> >>> At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it >>>> diagonally. >>>> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems >>>> very >>>> very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no >>>> words >>>> to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >>>> >>>> -dsb >>>> Douglas S. Bigham >>>> Department of Linguistics >>>> University of Texas - Austin >>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 23:10:12 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:10:12 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western Civilization... --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 23:14:14 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:14:14 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:46 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: >> First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >> square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, > leaving two sides? Because then it would be "vertical." ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 00:30:09 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:30:09 -0500 Subject: The show Message-ID: Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jul 23 00:43:37 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin J Barrett) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:43:37 -0700 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <200407221740.1bNO6S5Pe3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: I recall hearing it for sure around 1984 or 1985 in Seattle. I think I use it on occasion. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Janis Vizier Nihart Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = going to the show tonight? =20 Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = Anyone remember using this term? From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 23 00:44:18 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:44:18 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: It took me a moment to realize that I no longer say this. It certainly was what we would say in rural south-central Kentucky, c. 1970. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Janis Vizier Nihart Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The show Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 00:57:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:57:35 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: "The show" to mean something like a circus is all over newspapers in the 1890's. I didn't try to actually find the earliest cite. I can remember my Virginia relatives saying this in the 1950's when talking about a movie. Sam Clements > Subject: The show > > > Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? > Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? > From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 00:59:23 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:59:23 -0500 Subject: Re The show Message-ID: Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using the term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed down about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older people who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 23 01:10:49 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:10:49 -0400 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <004f01c4704c$3966f290$64c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: >Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when >referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. This was common in my large city too ... or at least in my part of it ... as I recall. >Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie >theater? Anyone remember using this term? It's still current AFAIK. Maybe not fashionable though. I said "movie[s]" usually myself, and still do. But I presume that at least some of my childhood peers who said "the show" for "the movie[s]" are still saying it. Similarly, some refer to a stage play or a TV program as a "show". These usages all seem ordinary to me. -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 23 01:20:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:20:44 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <14351EDB-DC30-11D8-B84B-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Zackly. Most of the world's bad-talkers have four-for conflation with far separate; St. Louis has for-far conflation with four separate; Louisville has all three distinct (or did in the good ol days). dInIs >On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:48 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "James A. Landau" >>Subject: Re: farty >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >>>"Dennis R. Preston" writes: >>> >>>Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >>>farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >>>St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >>>keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >>>hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) >> >>I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse >>distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not >>rhyme with "course" >>would sound. > >In Saint Louis, you probably wouldn't notice anything strange about >"hoarse," but "horse" would probably strike you as sounding a lot like >"harse." > >-Wilson Gray > >> >>"My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse >>of a >>different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a >>different color" >>appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) >> >> - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 01:26:52 2004 From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:26:52 EDT Subject: The show Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:40:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM writes: Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = going to the show tonight? =20 Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = Anyone remember using this term? I grew up in a small town in Western New York State (south of Buffalo). We always used the term "show" when referencing a movie theater, and most people in my home town still use the term. I would say it dates to at least the early 1950s. It was always "going to the show" even though the place we went was called the Joyland Theater. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 23 01:35:04 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:35:04 -0400 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <146.2ee8ef2d.2e31c35c@aol.com> Message-ID: In Minnesota in the '40s and '50s we always went to "the show" or the "matinee show." And don't forget "The Last Picture Show"--though we didn't use that collocation in my area. At 09:26 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:40:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM writes: > >Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = >referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = >going to the show tonight? =20 >Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = >Anyone remember using this term? > > > >I grew up in a small town in Western New York State (south of Buffalo). We >always used the term "show" when referencing a movie theater, and most people >in my home town still use the term. I would say it dates to at least the >early 1950s. It was always "going to the show" even though the place we >went was >called the Joyland Theater. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jul 23 02:48:44 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:48:44 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: minstrel show (DA 1870) picture show (DA 1881) Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 02:55:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:55:40 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: The pictures were, of course, not moving. This would be the "first" picture show, as opposed to "The Last Picture Show" :) SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" > picture show (DA 1881) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:03:03 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:03:03 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show In-Reply-To: <200407221759.1bNOpw5OW3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Re The show > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > the = > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > down = > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > people = > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? -Wilson Gray From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 03:08:50 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:08:50 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show Message-ID: And you know/knew that folk up North said "good time" --how? Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > > Subject: Re The show > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > > the = > > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > > down = > > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > > people = > > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. > > I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North > Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the > "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would > ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd > had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did > y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? > > -Wilson Gray > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 03:15:49 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:15:49 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown market since 1910 or so. I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name of the market as AK-a-me I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of symbols/letters so that you can understand it better. The accent is on the first syllable, and they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? As an addenda, two out of the three people who say it this way are college educated and Jewish. I don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. All three are locally born. Sam Clements From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:34:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:34:28 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as "cambra" in my entire life. There's nothing surprising in the loss of an identical consonant before a consonant, though. I.e,. words like "candid," "comet," and "Hittite" are quite commonly pronounced in isolation as though spelled "candik," "comik," and "Hittike." In a different bar in the same area, I once saw a hand-printed sign advertising the price of a "Picture of beer" and illustrated with a drawing of a pitcher of beer. -Wilson Gray From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 03:39:24 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0500 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show Message-ID: We didn't have a good time ---we PASSED a good time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:03 PM Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > > Subject: Re The show > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > > the = > > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > > down = > > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > > people = > > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. > > I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North > Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the > "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would > ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd > had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did > y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? > > -Wilson Gray > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:54:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:54:29 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show In-Reply-To: <200407222008.1bNQqA7F93NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > And you know/knew that folk up North said "good time" --how? From having lived above the Mason-Dixon Line for many years, Langhorne. May I call you "Langhorne? Of course, when, as a child, I still lived below the Cotton Curtain, I naively believed that the language that I spoke was called "'Merican," that it was the only language in existence, and that the way that it was spoken in my household was the way that 'Merican was spoken or, at least, ought to have been spoken, across the face of the earth. -Wilson Gray > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > > >> On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >>> Subject: Re The show >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using >>> the = >>> term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed >>> down = >>> about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older >>> people = >>> who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. >> >> I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North >> Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the >> "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk >> would >> ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd >> had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time >> did >> y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 23 06:47:49 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:47:49 -0400 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <5ACA22F6-DC15-11D8-B84B-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? > >Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which >sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in the >day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. I posted something on "poontang" a while back. The "putain" etymology seems OK to me too ... as a guess or conjecture. Apparently clear evidence is lacking and there are several other possibilities IMHO. I do not suggest "poontang" < "pearltongue". I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any racial overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it now. I have some records here. Here is "Poontang Little, Poontang Small" (on the CD entitled "Black Appalachia"), supposedly recorded in 1936: ---------- <> ---------- Some of the lyrics are unintelligible. What does it mean? Here is "Oh! Mister Mitchell" sung by Clara Smith in 1929. The lyrics are generally quite clear: ---------- <> ---------- Here "poontang" is a confection supplied by Mr. Mitchell (a confectionery stand proprietor in Louisiana): the obvious interpretation IMHO (with double-entendre of course) is "poontang" = "sex", without gender specificity (let alone racial specificity). The date is about as early as the earliest conventional citation of the word. I have transcribed the entire lyrics, in case anybody's curious. -- Doug Wilson From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 09:57:41 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:57:41 -0400 Subject: Poontang Message-ID: FYI in terms of this discussion. "Before I had gained my fourteenth year I had learnt that them that would explore a cunt stop'd not to consider the spelling o't." Mark Twain "1601" Page Stephens From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Jul 23 14:25:27 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:25:27 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <008101c47063$5a886d20$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Pretty much the entire native population of south-Jersey calls it the AK-a-me, too. At 11:15 PM 7/22/2004, you wrote: >I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I grew up in Arllington, >VA. 1947-1964. I also had connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > >The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket chain in the Akron >area. It's been the hometown market since 1910 or so. > >I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who were born and raise >here in Akron pronounce the name of the market as > > AK-a-me > >I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of symbols/letters so that >you can understand it better. The accent is on the first syllable, and >they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > >Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > >As an addenda, two out of the three people who say it this way are college >educated and Jewish. I don't know if that's any help, but it's >factual. All three are locally born. > >Sam Clements From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 14:55:43 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:55:43 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess if you are one of those heathens who cuts the crust off the bread, then the question is moot. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not > all was; some was > >square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich > bread," as I recall. > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut > went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't > it go down, > leaving two sides? > > Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no > sandwiches on the > diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie > customs, luckily, later > in life, after our family values were well > established). > > dInIs > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 15:03:25 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:03:25 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <008101c47063$5a886d20$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and some people there use the three syllable pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old people because my grandmother was the only I knew who said it that way. Don't know how current it is. She also pronounced batteries (specifically the plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as ''battries'' with two syllables. Ed --- Sam Clements wrote: > I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I > grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had > connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > > The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket > chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown > market since 1910 or so. > > I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who > were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name > of the market as > > AK-a-me > > I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of > symbols/letters so that you can understand it > better. The accent is on the first syllable, and > they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > > Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > > As an addenda, two out of the three people who say > it this way are college educated and Jewish. I > don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. > All three are locally born. > > Sam Clements > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:43:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:43:38 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040723102412.0249cda8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 7:25 AM, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > Pretty much the entire native population of south-Jersey calls it the > AK-a-me, too. it was widespread, but hardly universal, throughout southeastern pennsylvania in the '40s and '50s. my impression was that mostly associated with older speakers (at that time), like my pa. dutch grandmother (who used to take me to "the show" on saturdays -- sometimes vaudeville, sometimes movies), so it may well have disappeared by now. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:32:36 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:32:36 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <20040723150325.19016.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is this common? At 08:03 AM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and >some people there use the three syllable >pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old >people because my grandmother was the only I knew who >said it that way. Don't know how current it is. > >She also pronounced batteries (specifically the >plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as >''battries'' with two syllables. > >Ed > >--- Sam Clements wrote: > > I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I > > grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had > > connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > > > > The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket > > chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown > > market since 1910 or so. > > > > I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who > > were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name > > of the market as > > > > AK-a-me > > > > I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of > > symbols/letters so that you can understand it > > better. The accent is on the first syllable, and > > they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > > > > Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > > > > As an addenda, two out of the three people who say > > it this way are college educated and Jewish. I > > don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. > > All three are locally born. > > > > Sam Clements > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:55:00 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:55:00 -0700 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040723021201.02f38a30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:47 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ...I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > racial > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > now. i can vouch for a race-neutral usage (by a college friend from louisville, ky., who occasionally announced, "i'm goin' to get me some poontang tonight", and occasionally did; everybody involved was white). i believe others can vouch for a race-restricted usage. i doubt that there's real evidence as to which usage was/is "general"; it's very likely to be a matter of usage varying across times and places and social groups. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 23 15:56:19 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: Laptopping Message-ID: Mark Evanier's blog: http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2004_07_23.html#008756 "Since I'm away from home and LAPTOPPING it, I'm unable to read all the articles about the 9/11 report that was released today. " From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:07:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:07:03 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <33EFA81E-DC59-11D8-A5AF-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the > South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito > written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had > been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the > author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as > "cambra" in my entire life... probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop in [mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:15:10 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:15:10 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090512612@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western > Civilization... > > --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:37:56 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:37:56 EDT Subject: Poontang and Tagalog Message-ID: I think that POONTANG is a verb of motion in Tagalog. This is not to say that I am proposing an etymology here, though when in graduate school I first discovered the Tagalog form I was delighted with fantasies of World War II soldiers inventing a new slang term by borrowing while stationed in the Phillipines. But if there are citations from the 1930s, then we'dhave to push this kind of an etymological connection back to the Spanish American War Isoem 40 years earlier). In a message dated 7/23/04 12:23:45 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:47 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ...I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > > racial > > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > > now. > > i can vouch for a race-neutral usage (by a college friend from > louisville, ky., who occasionally announced, "i'm goin' to get me some > poontang tonight", and occasionally did; everybody involved was white). >   i believe others can vouch for a race-restricted usage.  i doubt that > there's real evidence as to which usage was/is "general"; it's very > likely to be a matter of usage varying across times and places and > social groups. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:37:38 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:37:38 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723113133.021732e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I noticed my best friend in grade school (Oregon, early 50s, shortly after we moved up from So. Cal.) using a two-syllable pronunciation of 'batteries,' and it seems to me as if I hear it more and more nowadays. But as I think about it, I'm not sure whether he said "bat-try" or "bat-ry" (the latter with unaspirated /t/). I know his family said "cunt-ry" for 'country,' which I've never heard anywhere else. What I hear nowadays is definitely "batry" or "bat-try," both with aspirated /t/. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 23, 2004 11:32 AM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is this > common? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:41:54 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:41:54 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <785D7469-DCC3-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: --On Friday, July 23, 2004 9:15 AM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >> And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western >> Civilization... >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" >> wrote: >> >>> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. > > last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with > "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" > (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the > distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear > it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). > > here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really > expect it. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Indeed. The Decline of Western Civilization is well advanced. PMc ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:44:25 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:44:25 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20-ing=20vs.=20-in'=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?in=20expletives?= Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/04 2:05:33 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > an > entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and > informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to > hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". > My gut feeling is that using /n/ rather than /N/ would tend to be just the opposite, i.e., a self-conscious attempt at sounding like a good-ol'-boy rather than a sophisticated entertainer, especially with this word in this context. It seems to me that /N/ is used more often than /n/ as an emphatic adjectival. From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:45:41 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:45:41 -0500 Subject: hoarse-horse Message-ID: AFAIK, the distinction has been lost for quite a while in southern England, and presumably in RP as well. I don't have my copy of Wells (1982) handy to check. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Fri 7/23/2004 11:15 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hoarse-horse last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:51:26 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:51:26 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > You obviously belong to a younger Louisville generation; those taking > the language to hell in a handbasket. At one time the hoarse-horse > (or four-for) distinction was alive and well in Louisville. "Hoarse" > was long-o, the vowel of "coat"; "horse" was open o, the vowel of > "caught." > > Yes, people who don't have the distinction find it hard to imagine... heh, heh. i used to use this contrast in the writing systems section of intro linguistics courses, just after the cot-caught contrast (or lack of it), the point being that the conservatism of english orthography leads to situations in which the orthography is arbitrary from the point of view of many (or most) current speakers, but explicable historically. (if there's time, we go on to meet-meat.) my classes would always have some people who distinguish cot-caught and some who don't, and the latter students would be astonished to discover that there was something systematic in the spelling (even if it was useless for them). horse-hoarse is trickier, though. it's ok if i stick to these two words; spells open o, spells long o (when the vowel and the [r] are tautosyllabic, of course), and i believe that those generalizations are essentially perfect. i almost never had a horse-hoarse distinguisher in my classes (even at ohio state, with lots of southern midlands speakers, and some from the upper south), so the spelling point was a kind of aha experience for the students. but in the horse-hoarse variety most familiar to me (ann daingerfield zwicky's -- born in 1937, early years mostly in lexington, ky. -- identical to dInIs's with respect to this distinction, i think), the spelling goes both ways: open o in , long o in . this is something i'd prefer to conceal from students in an intro class. (let me point out that i'm posting from home, so that i'm away from all the sources that have actual historical information on this topic. i am moved to wonder about different words spelled , and whether they're all in the open-o set, or whether there's variation, and similarly for other spellings.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:13:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:13:39 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <563EE358-DCC2-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:07 AM -0700 7/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the >>South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito >>written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had >>been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the >>author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as >>"cambra" in my entire life... > >probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop in >[mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the >nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who >notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. > Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same "humus" root as "humble"). larry P.S. Just checked the AHD4 and confirmed another example: the -b- in "camber" < earlier "camur" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:30:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:30:03 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > At 9:07 AM -0700 7/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> ... probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop >> in >> [mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the >> nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who >> notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. > Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples > that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as > in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male > human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same > sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same > "humus" root as "humble"). > > ... P.S. Just checked the AHD4 and confirmed another example: the -b- > in "camber" < earlier "camur" yes, yes, yes. there are piles of cases. i thought of mentioning this, but decided not to do it from (my very imperfect) memory and not to wait until i got to my library. thanks for doing the homework for me/us, larry! arnold From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:39:58 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:39:58 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <200407231713.AVF14942@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 17:45:46 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:45:46 EDT Subject: The show Message-ID: I still go to see the show... or *a* show, at least. Fuzzy thoughts.... I'm thinking that going to the "show" might be a date, while going to the "movies" (etc) would just be hang-out time. Yep. I think that's where I make a distinction. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:34:18 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:34:18 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across Message-ID: De-lurking to tell what a weird family I come from: we sometimes used to cut sandwiches into 4 squares! I associate this w/ being a little kid (elementary school & younger). I guess there was some concept about smaller pieces for smaller hands & mouths? I don't know. You can only do this with a very thin sandwich & I mostly remember it with butter -- well, margarine, actually -- sandwiches. Grownup &/or thicker sandwiches were cut vertically. I also think horizontal is really weird. Now I cut diagonally. Too much Martha exposure, maybe. (Free Martha!) -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 18:48:59 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:48:59 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indigo Som said: >De-lurking to tell what a weird family I come from: we sometimes used >to cut sandwiches into 4 squares! I associate this w/ being a little >kid (elementary school & younger). I guess there was some concept >about smaller pieces for smaller hands & mouths? I don't know. You >can only do this with a very thin sandwich & I mostly remember it >with butter -- well, margarine, actually -- sandwiches. We did this also. Kid sandwiches were cut into four pieces. Sometimes it was just quarters (i.e., 4 little squares), and sometimes it was triangles (i.e., 2 diagonal cuts), and sometimes it was a weird combination of one verticle and one diagonal cut. > >Grownup &/or thicker sandwiches were cut vertically. Yep. > >I also think horizontal is really weird. Yep. > >Now I cut diagonally. Nah...still vertical, when I have sandwiches. >Too much Martha exposure, maybe. (Free Martha!) Here we part ways. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 20:06:01 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:06:01 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 01:13 PM 7/23/2004, you wrote: Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same "humus" root as "humble"). Not only is it a common source of sound change, but in fact the same etymon underwent the same change in French, leading to chamBre 'room', which, of course, is what CAMERA originally meant. Wheels within wheels... Geoff --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 20:15:54 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:54 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <20040723200601.28098.qmail@web61305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0700 7/23/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? > >JL and besides these more dramatic cases (chimbley, humble, chambre) involving a stop between nasal and liquid, there are the subtler ones in /m+s/, e.g. the widely attested "hampster" larry > >Geoff Nathan wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Geoff Nathan >Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >At 01:13 PM 7/23/2004, you wrote: > >Isn't this a relatively common >source of sound change? Two examples > >that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. >"andro-" (as > >in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. >"aner" ('male > >human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is >the same > >sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same > >"humus" root as "humble"). > >Not only is it a common source of sound change, but in fact >the same etymon underwent the same change in French, leading to chamBre >'room', which, of course, is what CAMERA originally meant. Wheels >within wheels... > > >Geoff > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 20:22:44 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:22:44 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: Then, of course, there is "the show" in baseball usage which refers to the major as opposed to the minor leagues. As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois we called a moving picture show the show perhaps because there was no other show in town. We also used to talk about going to a show, or going to see a picture When I was in college in Crawfordsville, Indiana we used to talk about going to the flick(s) or to see a flick which at the time (early 1960s) seemed to be an anachronism since I had only heard of the use of the word "flickers" as an old word for motion pictures in books about the history of the movies. On the other hand you have to have lived in Indiana to know and love the fact that the minute you step across the Indiana border from any place you feel like you are in a time warp. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Bigham" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: Re: The show > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: The show > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I still go to see the show... or *a* show, at least. Fuzzy thoughts.... I'm > thinking that going to the "show" might be a date, while going to the "movies" > (etc) would just be hang-out time. Yep. I think that's where I make a > distinction. > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 20:43:45 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:43:45 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: My friend Ken Shipley who is an old hillbilly like I am but now lives today in Cleveland, Ohio was once puzzled by a spray painted message on the side of a building which read "Sarah is a hoe." For the life of him he couldn't figure why anyone would like to call a person an agricultural implement until it dawned on him what the writer was trying to say. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 1:06 PM -0700 7/23/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? > > > >JL > > and besides these more dramatic cases (chimbley, humble, chambre) > involving a stop between nasal and liquid, there are the subtler ones > in /m+s/, e.g. the widely attested "hampster" > > larry > ! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 21:45:11 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:45:11 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: Names are not always what they seem. The common Welsh name BZJXXLLWCP is pronounced Jackson. Mark Twain From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 00:10:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:10:29 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <200407231445.1bO7QU22p3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: Do you remember Li'l Abner, the old comic strip by Al Capp? This strip occasionally featured the adventures of two aristocratic English families, one named "Chalmondelay," pronounced "Chumley," and the other named "Chumley," pronounced "Chalmondelay." According to the late Mario Pei's The Story of Language, it's also the case that the English pronounce "Mainwaring" as "Mannering" and pronounce "Featherstonehaugh" as "Fanshaw." Of course, Pei was expecting to be taken seriously, whereas Capp was just joking. -Wilson Gray On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:45 PM, Page Stephens wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Page Stephens > Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard > speech > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Names are not always what they seem. The common Welsh name BZJXXLLWCP > is > pronounced Jackson. > > Mark Twain > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 00:56:13 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:56:13 -0400 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <200407230915.1bO2I33QT3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 12:15 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: hoarse-horse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >> And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western >> Civilization... >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" >> wrote: >> >>> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. > > last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with > "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" > (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the > distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear > it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). > > here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really > expect it. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > When I was in the Army in 1961, a barracksmate from Cleveland casually remarked, "Have you ever noticed that the "h" is not pronounced in words that start with "wh"? We nearly came to blows. Clearly, his observation was utter nonsense. On another occasion, ca.1973, I happened to mention the title of the CLS book, "Chicago Which Hunt." My hearer was startled, remarking that she hadn't known that there were people who still distinguished between the "hw" pronunciation and the "w" pronunciation. For my part, I was struck by the sudden realization that there were people for whom the title was actually a pun, rather than a mere approximation of one. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:07:05 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:07:05 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <200407230851.1bO2kw6bZ3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is > this > common? It's the regular BE pronunciation and,I suppose, also in other Southern(-derived) dialects. (Not that I consider MN to be the location of of a Southern-based dialect!) -Wilson Gray > > At 08:03 AM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and >> some people there use the three syllable >> pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old >> people because my grandmother was the only I knew who >> said it that way. Don't know how current it is. >> >> She also pronounced batteries (specifically the >> plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as >> ''battries'' with two syllables. >> >> Ed >> >> --- Sam Clements wrote: >>> I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I >>> grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had >>> connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. >>> >>> The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket >>> chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown >>> market since 1910 or so. >>> >>> I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who >>> were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name >>> of the market as >>> >>> AK-a-me >>> >>> I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of >>> symbols/letters so that you can understand it >>> better. The accent is on the first syllable, and >>> they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. >>> >>> Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? >>> >>> As an addenda, two out of the three people who say >>> it this way are college educated and Jewish. I >>> don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. >>> All three are locally born. >>> >>> Sam Clements >>> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 01:18:24 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:18:24 -0400 Subject: Poontang and Tagalog In-Reply-To: <104.4bf6e7ad.2e3298e4@aol.com> Message-ID: >I think that POONTANG is a verb of motion in Tagalog. This is not to say that >I am proposing an etymology here, though when in graduate school I first >discovered the Tagalog form I was delighted with fantasies of World War II >soldiers inventing a new slang term by borrowing while stationed in the >Phillipines. >But if there are citations from the 1930s, then we'dhave to push this kind of >an etymological connection back to the Spanish American War Isoem 40 years >earlier). I'm ignorant of Tagalog, but I have looked into this a little. "Punta" = "go to" apparently can add a ligature to give "puntang". This is fine phonetically but where's the semantic connection? There is another candidate, however: Tagalog "puta" (from Spanish) can add a ligature too, giving "putang". Can we get closer? Maybe. Tagalog also has an expletive "pun[y]eta[ng]" which I believe is from Spanish "pun~eta" but which is conflated with "puta" in Tagalog sometimes, at least nowadays. So here are two very comparable candidate etyma: French "putain" Meaning: "prostitute" Phonetics: maybe plausible, but lacking the first nasal Route of adoption: plausible (Louisiana French OR US military [France WW I or Haiti 1915]) Tagalog "putang" Meaning: "prostitute" Phonetics: maybe plausible, but lacking the first nasal (BUT some suggestion of a possible explanation as above) Route of adoption: plausible (US military, large Philippine presence 1898-1941) Why choose one over the other? Until some documentary evidence comes in, I believe the question is open. There are, I believe, some other possibilities too. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:25:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:25:52 -0400 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <200407222347.1bNTQu6ln3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 2:47 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Poontang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? >> >> Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which >> sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in >> the >> day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. > > I posted something on "poontang" a while back. The "putain" etymology > seems > OK to me too ... as a guess or conjecture. Apparently clear evidence is > lacking and there are several other possibilities IMHO. I do not > suggest > "poontang" < "pearltongue". > > I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > racial > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > now. Doug, you can't be serious! You know that there's not necessarily a one-to-one and onto mapping between truth and what people believe! Surely, you've heard of a phenomenon called "religion"!:-) -Wilson Gray > > I have some records here. Here is "Poontang Little, Poontang Small" > (on the > CD entitled "Black Appalachia"), supposedly recorded in 1936: > > ---------- > > < Poontang stretches like a rubber ball. > Oh my babe, took my salty thing. ... > > < Oh, the man come to get it ain't got no sense. ....>> > > ---------- > > Some of the lyrics are unintelligible. What does it mean? > > Here is "Oh! Mister Mitchell" sung by Clara Smith in 1929. The lyrics > are > generally quite clear: > > ---------- > > < Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'll tell the world that it's a whang. .... > > < But when you give me poontang I just lose control. ....>> > > ---------- > > Here "poontang" is a confection supplied by Mr. Mitchell (a > confectionery > stand proprietor in Louisiana): the obvious interpretation IMHO (with > double-entendre of course) is "poontang" = "sex", without gender > specificity (let alone racial specificity). The date is about as early > as > the earliest conventional citation of the word. I have transcribed the > entire lyrics, in case anybody's curious. > > -- Doug Wilson > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:45:50 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:45:50 -0400 Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") Message-ID: > As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois If memory serves, the nickname of the Centralia High School teams is/was the "Orphans of the Storm." If this is correct, in the words of James Brown and those of The Channels, Please, please, please! Explain it to me! I've wondered about this since at least 1950. It surely is the most depressing team nickname that I've ever heard of. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 02:30:35 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:30:35 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Jul 24 02:49:00 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:49:00 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407240230.i6O2Ul128467@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". Jim Parish From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:02:14 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:02:14 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: I grew up in the 50's and 60's and definitely remember hearing and using the rhyme in South Louisiana. What does Puttin and Tane mean? Janis Nihart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jul 24 03:04:07 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:04:07 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: My mother,white, born in Danville, Va. in 1923 told me this rhyme and said she and her friends used it in the elementary grades. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 03:04:32 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:04:32 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: We discussed this a while back. Here's one message, although of somewhat dubious provenance: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110A&L=ads-l&P=R5702 (Hope the link works.) -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 03:19:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:19:18 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407231949.1bOcB34De3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard it as Puddin tame myself. But, as I noted, I've run across it in published collections of nursery rhyme. These books give it as "Putting and ta'en." FWIW, I interpret "ta'en" as "taken," because of the apostrophe and the fact that "putting" and "taken," in some sense, go together, though "putting and ta(k)ing" would make more sense. But, who knows? Nursery rhymes don't have to make sense. -Wilson Gray On Jul 23, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray wrote: >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". > > Jim Parish > From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:28:14 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:28:14 -0500 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with the expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I think " Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" meant I'm going to New Orleans. Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on New Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the same thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? Thanks Janis Nihart From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 03:37:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:37:29 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407232002.1bOcNRMc3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:02 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I grew up in the 50's and 60's and definitely remember hearing and > using the > rhyme in South Louisiana. What does Puttin and Tane mean? I'm not sure. I've seen that line in print as "Putting and ta'en," which, I think, stands for "putting and taken." It's probably not supposed to mean anything; it's just there to provide a rhyme. I don't think I've heard anybody actually say it except when I was in the first grade, so it probably doesn't have a "real" meaning, since it's just for little kids. Back in the '60's, when I told my buddy about the recorded version, he thought that I was just making some arcane joke. He was freaked when he heard the song for himself. It was like someone had made a recording for adults of "Humpty-Dumpty" or something. Really weird. -Wilson Gray > Janis Nihart > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:30 PM > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- > ----- >> >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:56:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:56:18 EDT Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com Message-ID: STAY CLASSY & GINORMOUS STAY CLASSY--4,330 Google hits, 39 Google Groups hits GINORMOUS--19,700 Google hits, 5,180 Google Groups hits "Stay Classy" is Will Ferrell's catchphrase in ANCHORMAN. "Gonormous" was his catchword in ELF. The HDAS does not have "ginormous," but Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG cites it as RAF slang from the 1940s. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Dallas--Category Won ... elegant post. I hope your future competitions go well. Stay classy. -- Keith HOP at krypton.mankato.msus.edu "Peng! Right in the toast!" rec.arts.bodyart - Sep 2, 1995 by Keith L. Hopkins - View Thread (4 articles) Re: Chief fans the worst in the league?' ... teams. I'd like to see it stay classy. The players on these two teams rarely spar, and the fans should follow their example. Personally ... rec.sport.football.pro - Dec 10, 1994 by sl930 at cc.usu.edu - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Results of Symbol Grounding Poll: Nays (3rd of 3 parts) ... (Now for the poll): If discussion continues to involve ginormous reply's: END IT If discussion stops taking over whole digests: KEEP IT. ... comp.ai - Jul 8, 1987 by harnad at mind.UUCP - View Thread (1 article) Re: Phase-Locked Loop Design In the (likely) event that the program is a bit ginormous to post over the net, a snail mail contact address will do just fine. ... misc.wanted - Oct 14, 1986 by Richard Andrews - View Thread (1 article) Re: Something else to watch out for! ... feeling a thing (although I've often wished they really were like soft fluffy cotton wool :-) ) Perhaps the boiling-up was due just to a ginormous thermal from ... net.aviation - Jun 14, 1985 by Brent P. Callaghan - View Thread (17 articles) Re: Shared code/libraries ... the listings are taller than me (don't forget, they page the OS, since it's trivial with all that hardware help, so they don't really mind if it's ginormous). ... net.unix-wizards - Aug 17, 1983 by Dave Lukes - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GICLEE GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 21 July 2004, pg. D1. It is not in the OED. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Prints" through ... alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ... fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article) Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite etranglee. ... soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu - View Thread (3 articles) ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e- chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ... alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We discussed this a while back. Here's one message, although of > somewhat > dubious provenance: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110A&L=ads-l&P=R5702 > > (Hope the link works.) > > -- Doug Wilson > Yes, the link does work, still. It's amazing - or maybe it's not, to a specialist - that these things are so old. Unfortunately, I can't cite my source. In fact, strangely enough for me, I can't even remember what library I was in when I ran across the printed version that I used in my post. It was a serendipity moment. I was researching some other topic and accidentally ran across "What's your name?" I saw that the second line - the only line of interest - was given as "Putting and ta'en," made a mental note only of that, and moved on. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 04:12:26 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:12:26 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407232028.1bOdd039Y3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = > through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = > here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with > the = > expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: > > The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = > tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. > > The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I > = > think " > > Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. > > Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used "pick up" with this meaning. -Wilson Gray > > to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the = > closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = > Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = > expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" = > meant I'm going to New Orleans. > > Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on > New = > Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = > popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the > same = > thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? > > Thanks > Janis Nihart > From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 24 04:32:58 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:32:58 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <410187CC.1258.18F6155@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 7:49 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > > victimized by the following word game: > > > > Q. What's your name? > > A. Putting and ta'en! > > Ask me again > > And I'll tell you the same. > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". I'm a white person and I recall the rhyme from my childhood. The version I knew was with "Puddin' tane". (Spelling is approximate; I don't recall it being written.) This version also appears in a 1998 episode of the TV show "X Files," spoken by Agent Mulder. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 04:51:46 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:51:46 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was stunned. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 05:24:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:24:31 -0400 Subject: South Park Message-ID: In a recent episode of South Park, the kids don't know the meaning of "skylarking" or "tomfoolery." Sigh! The pop song, "Skylark," which contains a description of skylarkink, is an old - really old, I guess - favorite of mine from around the late '40's or early '50's and the meaning of "tomfoolery" was once so well-known that it inspired an R&B record by that name in the "50's. BTW, if you've never seen a skylark skylarking, it's quite impressive. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jul 24 07:01:54 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:01:54 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". >This version also appears in a 1998 episode of the TV show "X Files," >spoken by Agent Mulder. It seems like Barney Fife also quoted it in an episode of The Andy Griffith Show (or was it Gomer Pyle on his show?) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jul 24 07:11:06 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:11:06 -0500 Subject: Giclee Message-ID: "Giclee" is a word meaning "expensive inkjet print". People who sell "fine art prints" use big inkjet printers to make them. Giclee is French for something or other that justifies its use, but it's a fancy inkjet printer, is all. -- --------------------------------------------- GICLEE =20 GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits =20 "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL,= =20 21 July 2004, pg. D1. =20 It is not in the OED. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by=20 Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Pr= ints"=20 through ...=20 alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse=20 giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ...=20 fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article)=20 =20 Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une= =20 giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite=20 etranglee. ...=20 soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu -=20 View Thread (3 articles) =20 =20 ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e-=20 chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ...=20 alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a > regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us > young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the > 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard > "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. > Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term > for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of > the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate > of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether > it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He > replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely > disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was > stunned. In addition, Australians use (or have used) "plink". In fact, "plonk" and its relatives are first recorded in Australia and come from the exposure of troops (linguistically and gustationally) to the French "vin blanc" in the First World War. Until you wrote, I wasn't even sure that this set of words was known in the USA ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:44:03 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:44:03 -0400 Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") Message-ID: The basketball team showed up at a tournament one time during a storm looking somewhat bedraggled, and someone said they looked Orphans of the Storm from the old movie of that title. At least this is the story I have been told. This occurred during the 1930s. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:45 PM Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois > > If memory serves, the nickname of the Centralia High School teams > is/was the "Orphans of the Storm." If this is correct, in the words of > James Brown and those of The Channels, Please, please, please! Explain > it to me! I've wondered about this since at least 1950. It surely is > the most depressing team nickname that I've ever heard of. > > -Wilson Gray From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:48:03 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: My grandfather, born in 1888 in Anna, Illinois, used to say it all the time when I was growing up though he said puddin in place of putting Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 12:55:21 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:55:21 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will check. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:57:13 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:57:13 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: It was used quite often in the British comedy drama Rumpole of the Bailey which was on PBS' Mystery Theater a few years ago. It referred to a cheap wine and fitted Rumpole's status as a person who defended lower class criminals. The Rumpole series was based on the books of John Mortimer as I recall. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:51 AM Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a > regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us > young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the > 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard > "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. > Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term > for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of > the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate > of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether > it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He > replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely > disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was > stunned. > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:03:05 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:03:05 -0700 Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com Message-ID: I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STAY CLASSY & GINORMOUS =20 STAY CLASSY--4,330 Google hits, 39 Google Groups hits GINORMOUS--19,700 Google hits, 5,180 Google Groups hits =20 "Stay Classy" is Will Ferrell's catchphrase in ANCHORMAN. "Gonormous" was hi= s=20 catchword in ELF. =20 The HDAS does not have "ginormous," but Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY=20 OF SLANG cites it as RAF slang from the 1940s. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Dallas--Category Won ... elegant post. I hope your future competitions go well. Stay classy. -- Keith HOP at krypton.mankato.msus.edu "Peng! Right in the toast!"=20 rec.arts.bodyart - Sep 2, 1995 by Keith L. Hopkins - View Thread (4 articles= ) =20 Re: Chief fans the worst in the league?' ... teams. I'd like to see it stay classy. The players on these two teams rarely spar, and the fans should follow their example. Personally ...=20 rec.sport.football.pro - Dec 10, 1994 by sl930 at cc.usu.edu - View Thread (1=20 article) =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Results of Symbol Grounding Poll: Nays (3rd of 3 parts) ... (Now for the poll): If discussion continues to involve ginormous reply's= : END IT If discussion stops taking over whole digests: KEEP IT. ...=20 comp.ai - Jul 8, 1987 by harnad at mind.UUCP - View Thread (1 article) =20 Re: Phase-Locked Loop Design In the (likely) event that the program is a bit ginormous to post over the net, a snail mail contact address will do just fine. ...=20 misc.wanted - Oct 14, 1986 by Richard Andrews - View Thread (1 article) =20 Re: Something else to watch out for! ... feeling a thing (although I've often wished they really were like soft=20 fluffy cotton wool :-) ) Perhaps the boiling-up was due just to a ginormous thermal from=20 ...=20 net.aviation - Jun 14, 1985 by Brent P. Callaghan - View Thread (17 articles= ) =20 Re: Shared code/libraries ... the listings are taller than me (don't forget, they page the OS, since=20 it's trivial with all that hardware help, so they don't really mind if it's ginormous).=20 ...=20 net.unix-wizards - Aug 17, 1983 by Dave Lukes - View Thread (2 articles) =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------------------- GICLEE =20 GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits =20 "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL,= =20 21 July 2004, pg. D1. =20 It is not in the OED. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by=20 Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Pr= ints"=20 through ...=20 alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse=20 giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ...=20 fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article)=20 =20 Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une= =20 giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite=20 etranglee. ...=20 soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu -=20 View Thread (3 articles) =20 =20 ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e-=20 chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ...=20 alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - ogle.com/groups?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&threadm=3D004429Z03011995%40anon.pe= net.fi&rnum=3D77View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Re: cocktail ? ... Un peu sucr=E9 mais pas mal ! Dans des petits verres bas : - Une tombee=20= de=20 grenadine - De la Vodka ou du Gin - Une giclee de Baileys Alexandra ...=20 fr.rec.cuisine - Apr 18, 1995 by Jean-Marc Richard - View Thread (2 articles= ) =20 =20 A Blemish on Katz's WWW site ... Muhammad Hamidullah, French, 1981 (10th Edition, completely revised) ``I= l=20 a ete cree d'une giclee d'eau sortie d'entre lombes et cotes.'' He was=20 created from a ...=20 alt.religion.islam - Jan 1, 1996 by AAA - m/groups?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&threadm=3D4c96tk%24fb1%40pollux.usc.edu&rn= um=3D79View Thread (1 article) =20 In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted=20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------------------- EATING YOUR WORDS =20 Amazon.com says that this OUP book is available from June 4, 2004. (OUP has=20 it due August 6th.) Amazon says: "Customers interested in this title may al= so=20 be interested in: AEROBIC STRIPTEASE--The only official place to purchase=20 Carmen Electra's workour DVD series." =20 See the NEW YORK POST Page Six fight between Mimi Sheraton and William=20 Grimes. Mimi's newest is titled EATING MY WORDS. =20 It appears that William Grimes put his name on the book, but OED grunts did=20 most of the work. I've suggested such a book for years. OUP never contacted=20= me=20 regarding this book. OUP can use any part of my work without compensation, a= nd=20 this book prevents me from selling a similar book. =20 For people wondering when my food dictionary is coming out, well, there ain'= t=20 no food dictionary. Who's going to give me money for it? Who's going to=20 publish it--Oxford? I'm going to publish a dictionary the size and scope of=20= DARE=20 all by myself in my spare time after a full day of parking tickets? =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -------------------------------------------- BARRYPOPIK.COM =20 The site was mentioned on GOTHAMIST (www.gothamist.com) on July 22nd, and it= =20 got well over a thousand hits yesterday. =20 On the Big Apple Whore Hoax front this week, a writer cited the hoax in a=20 July 4th article (see Google News), and Jerry Cohen contacted her, and she=20 contacted Peter Salwen, who admitted that it was a "spoof." Salwen "didn't r= ealize"=20 it was still on the web. It might, MIGHT, be removed.=20 =20 So everything is rounding into place for when the "big apple" sculptures hit= =20 New York City on August 15th for the Big Apple Fest (www.bigapplefest.org).=20= My=20 site might get some hits, although it's still way down on Google, even on a=20 search for "Barry Popik." =20 But no matter what the site is or how many hits it gets, the fact is, I don'= t=20 make anything, and I'll never make anything, and I work every day, and the=20 city (who I work for) doesn't give me health care, and Oxford (who I work fo= r)=20 doesn't give me health care, and I can't even buy health care anywhere, and=20= I=20 did all this Big Apple stuff twelve years ago. =20 I wasn't in the mood for posting much this week and might not be in the=20 fuiture. It's nice to see others take up the slack --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:05:13 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:05:13 -0700 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning picking things up off the floor, mainly. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The mouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = > through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = > here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with > the = > expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: > > The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = > tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. > > The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I > = > think " > > Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. > > Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used "pick up" with this meaning. -Wilson Gray > > to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the = > closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = > Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = > expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" = > meant I'm going to New Orleans. > > Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on > New = > Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = > popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the > same = > thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? > > Thanks > Janis Nihart > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:09:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something like "van blunc." Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was stunned. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 13:12:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:12:02 -0400 Subject: South Park Message-ID: Skylark (music Hoagy Carmichael lyrics Johnny Mercer) copyright 1941 Skylark, have you anything to say to me, Won't you tell me where my love can be? Is there a meadow in the mist Where someone's waiting to be kissed? Skylark, have you seen a valley green with spring Where my heart can go a-journeying Over the shadows and the rain to a blossom-covered lane? And in your lonely flight haven't you heard the music of the night? Wonderful music, faint as a will-o-the-wisp, crazy as a loon, Sad as a gypsy serenading the moon, oh... Skylark, I don't know if you can find these things, But my heart is riding on your wings So if you see them anywhere Won't you lead me there. I just found the lyrics misattributed to Glenn Miller which is about par for the course online. Miller merely recorded it. Tomfoolery is also the name of the recent musical based on the songs of Tom Lehrer. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 1:24 AM Subject: South Park > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: South Park > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > In a recent episode of South Park, the kids don't know the meaning of > "skylarking" or "tomfoolery." > > Sigh! The pop song, "Skylark," which contains a description of > skylarkink, is an old - really old, I guess - favorite of mine from > around the late '40's or early '50's and the meaning of "tomfoolery" > was once so well-known that it inspired an R&B record by that name in > the "50's. > > BTW, if you've never seen a skylark skylarking, it's quite impressive. > > -Wilson Gray From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Jul 24 13:29:43 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:29:43 +0100 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and > American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something like > "van blunc." > > Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though > syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. > > JL I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, no doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was perhaps an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. Think of Prince Charles attempting to get his strangulated syllables around it. As for the WW1 Tommies, didn't 'vin blanc' come out more as 'vin(g) blong' (and thus, no doubt, plonk). Hence, from the WW1 memoirs of Frank. Richards _Old Soldiers Never Die_ (1964) 83: 'Ving blong was very cheap [...] a man could get a decent pint and a half bottle for a franc.' Red wine was 'vongrooge'. Australian troops also called white wine 'plinkety-plonk.' Jonathon Gree From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Jul 24 15:39:00 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:39:00 +0100 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, > no doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself > 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was > perhaps an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. Think > of Prince Charles attempting to get his strangulated syllables around > it. As for the WW1 Tommies, didn't 'vin blanc' come out more as 'vin(g) > blong' (and thus, no doubt, plonk). Hence, from the WW1 memoirs of > Frank. Richards _Old Soldiers Never Die_ (1964) 83: 'Ving blong was > very cheap [...] a man could get a decent pint and a half bottle for a > franc.' Red wine was 'vongrooge'. Australian troops also called white > wine 'plinkety-plonk.' Having written a Q&A piece about this for next week's issue, I am interested to hear of a British example in reference to WW1 - all the ones I found were to Australian sources. Have you any others? Would I still be right in thinking that "plonk" was a (re)introduction of the Australian term into British English in the 1950s? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jul 24 15:46:13 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:46:13 -0400 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: My mother would say quite often... pick up your toys. David barnhart at highlands.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 16:56:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:56:23 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407240555.1bOm3L32x3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:20:30 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:20:30 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: Not unless the same actor voiced the frog character for Andy Devine's '50s show. If it wasn't dubbed, the kid just had a weirdly deep voice. Haven't found the rhyme in that particular Botkin book, but earlier refs have now been posted. JL ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 17:21:08 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:21:08 EDT Subject: hoarse-horse Message-ID: You're recollection is correct--RP has never had this distinction between hw and w--the distinction is preserved in many or all Scottish dialects however. Dale Coye The College of NJ In a message dated 7/23/2004 12:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: AFAIK, the distinction has been lost for quite a while in southern England, and presumably in RP as well. I don't have my copy of Wells (1982) handy to check. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Fri 7/23/2004 11:15 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hoarse-horse last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 17:23:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:23:18 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407240605.1bOmdiIJ3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > picking things up off the floor, mainly. > > JL Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >> Subject: The mouse >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = >> through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down >> = >> here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with >> the = >> expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: >> >> The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a >> = >> tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. >> >> The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I >> = >> think " >> >> Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. >> >> Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away > > My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used > "pick up" with this meaning. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the >> = >> closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = >> Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = >> expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" >> = >> meant I'm going to New Orleans. >> >> Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on >> New = >> Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = >> popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the >> same = >> thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? >> >> Thanks >> Janis Nihart >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:30:25 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: Shd have said that the incarnation of Froggy the Gremlin that I remember appeared on the Saturday morning TV show, "Andy's Gang," with Andy Devine, sponsored by Buster Brown Shoes. Each week, as you may remember, Froggy would "plunk his Magic Twanger," resulting in God knows what. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:31:36 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:31:36 -0700 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: And T for Thelma, gal who made a FOOOOOL out of me. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The mouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > picking things up off the floor, mainly. > > JL Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >> Subject: The mouse >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = >> through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down >> = >> here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with >> the = >> expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: >> >> The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a >> = >> tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. >> >> The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I >> = >> think " >> >> Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. >> >> Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away > > My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used > "pick up" with this meaning. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the >> = >> closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = >> Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = >> expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" >> = >> meant I'm going to New Orleans. >> >> Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on >> New = >> Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = >> popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the >> same = >> thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? >> >> Thanks >> Janis Nihart >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 17:47:35 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:47:35 EDT Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a sound change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or ath-uh-let-ic (never heard anyone say this either, but theres a famous Ring Lardner story, I believe it's "You can look it up" where the narrator refers to the Philadelphia Ath-uh-letics. Another example is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some dialects use. Dale Coye The College of NJ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 17:59:41 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:59:41 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: <200407240625.1bOmwz7dt3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:29 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and >> American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something >> like >> "van blunc." >> >> Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though >> syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. >> >> JL > > I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, > no > doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself > 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was > perhaps > an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. > > Jonathon Green I've actually considered this possibility myself: that my friend simply misheard my American pronunciation of "plonk" and I, in turn, misheard his Oxonian pronunciation of the same word. "Two countries separated by the same language" or some such, as someone once said. It's like when you ask a Dutch speaker to say "bet" and you hear "bat." But, if you ask him to say "bat," you hear "bet." Of course, the Dutchman has used the same vowel in both cases. But, when this sound is filtered through the expectations of the (American-)English ear, confusion results and you think you're hearing the expected US-English vowels, but with their "polarity," as it were, reversed. In any case, the similarity between E TX BE "plunk" and Oxonian "plonk" is quite surprising. Which leads me to a discussion of -onk vs. -unk in BE that I'll get into in the near future, I hope. -Wilson Gray > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Jul 24 17:52:28 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: My mother (white, born in MN in 1906) chanted a similar rhyme to us when we annoyed her with constant questions, but the second line was different. For the life of me, I can't recall what it was though, and none of the alternatives offered ring a bell. It sounds like a turn of the (old) century rhyme that has largely faded, maybe because the second line doesn't make any sense. But what's a front-off game? At 10:30 PM 7/23/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >victimized by the following word game: > >Q. What's your name? >A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > >This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another >when she was a child. > >This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >back in the 'Sixties. > >So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, >over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard >sounds something like this: > >Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > >Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > >-Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 18:17:24 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:17:24 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. holy-crap handle holy-shit handle Jesus handle Jesus strap oh-crap handle Oh-Jesus strap oh-shit handle shit handle Any comments wd be welcome. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 18:19:00 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:19:00 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241030.1bOqlW34F3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Shd have said that the incarnation of Froggy the Gremlin that I > remember appeared on the Saturday morning TV show, "Andy's Gang," with > Andy Devine, sponsored by Buster Brown Shoes. Each week, as you may > remember, Froggy would "plunk his Magic Twanger," resulting in God > knows what. > > JL I don't recall the TV show, but yes, Froggy likewise plucked his Magic Twanger on radio, so it's very likely that the two "Froggys" were the same, in concept, at least. Given that there was a TV show of essentially the same format, I should probabaly amend my earlier statement to read something like, "Smilin' Ed was fired, when ..." and not that "The show was cancelled ..." Andy Devine's voice was so distinctive that there's no possibility that "Smilin' Ed McConnell" might have been a nom de radio that he once used. -Wilson Gray > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls >> the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly >> hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. > > Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old > Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster > Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm > Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? > > The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the > air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for > another week." > >> Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white >> children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will >> check. > > Thank you. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 18:46:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:46:37 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <200407241047.1bOqCE4kl3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:47 PM, Dale Coye wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dale Coye > Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a > sound > change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or > ath-uh-let-ic (never heard anyone say this either.) Another example > is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some > dialects use. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ Dale, surely you jest! The pronunciations "athalete," etc. are so common that I fully expect the next edition of the AHD to declare them standard.;-) My stepfather, a native of Saint Louis, used "ellum," "fillum," etc. In his case, though, this must have been a speech defect, since forms like these are most definitely not a feature of the speech of St. Louisans; "film," "elm" and "fi'm," "e'm" are the only possibilities. Such epentheses are a feature of Dutch, to the extent that the town name, Almelo (approx. ahlmuh-lo), is now usually pronounced as though it was spelled "Alemlo (approx. "ahlum-lo"). -Wilson Gray From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 19:07:55 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:07:55 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20slang=20(was=20Re:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Phat=20[was=20Re:=20gay/ghey/ghay])?= Message-ID: In a message dated 6/29/04 2:49:59 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > which i somehow missed.  and the 1978 AmSp is missing from my library; > 1977, yes, 1979, yes, but 1978, no.  so i guess it's time for a trip to > the library. > All issues of American Speech are available online. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 19:45:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:45:37 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241100.1bOqP47jb3NZFkl0@cockatoo> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:52 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My mother (white, born in MN in 1906) chanted a similar rhyme to us > when we > annoyed her with constant questions, but the second line was > different. For the life of me, I can't recall what it was though, and > none > of the alternatives offered ring a bell. It sounds like a turn of the > (old) > century rhyme that has largely faded, maybe because the second line > doesn't > make any sense. But what's a front-off game? In Saint Louis, to front someone off is to subject someone to ridicule by using verbal trickeration. In this case, when you ask someone his name and he replies with a nonsense rhyme to which you can have no reply (Ask me again and I'll tell you the same!) when you expect to hear the person's name, you're kinda left standing there with your brain hanging out. It's even worse when the interchange is spontaneous between adults and not part of a standardized hazing ritual between little kids. Consider the following exchange between two women. Darlene is surrounded by about four guys or so, each of whom is hanging on her every syllable. Peggy, walking past, is brought up short by this, to her, disgusting scene, given that she, in her own opinion, is far more attractive than Darlene. Yet, the guys, acting as though mesmerized by Darlene, are paying her no attention at all. Finally, the whole scene just becomes too much for her and Peggy simply must speak out: "Darlene, why don't you shut up?! Your mouth is too big!" To which Darlene calmly replies, "Well, at least my mouth is not as big as that hole you're standing over." Peggy, caught off guard, looks down and about her in an attempt to find the hole. Then, she understands. Darlene has totally fronted her off, before God and everybody else! And, even more embarrassing for her, by looking around for the hole, Peggy has demonstrated that, though the front-off is aimed specifically at her physical womanhood and with specific reference to her external genitalia, she is the only person within earshot not to get that point immediately. Peggy was a close friend of mine, but I had to give Darlene her props. She kicked ass with that one. She really knew how to hurt a woman where it really hurts. Hope this helps! -Wilson Gray > > At 10:30 PM 7/23/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 21:14:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:14:54 EDT Subject: Negimaki or Negimayaki Message-ID: OT: I've been seeing the posts of "JL" here recently. Let me wlecome the arrive of my ex-wife "J-Lo" to this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEGIMAKI--856 Google hits, 160 Google Groups hits NEGIMAYAKI--66 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits NEGIMA-YAKI--72 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits This dish was supposed invented at New York's Nippon Restaurant in 1963, so I've added to my New York Food section at www.barrypopik.com. OED has recently revised "N' and--it's not there. It's not there?! How could it not be there? Barry Popik (well-respected OED food contributor, recently awakened from parking tickets) (WWW.BARRYPOPIK.COM) Negimaki or Negimayaki Japanese food is booming here and this is one of the early New York City classics—or is it? According to John Mariani’s Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink (1979): “ The word is from the Janaese negi (onion) plus maki (wound around). The dish, which has become popular in Japanese restaurants in the United States, was created at New York’s Nippon Restaurant in 1963 by owner Nobuyoshi Kuaoka under the prompting of New York Times restaurant critic Craig Claiborner, who thought the restaurant should have more interesting beef dishes for the American customer. Kuaoka originally called the dish ‘negimayaki.’” That should solve it, but it doesn’t. A New York Times text search of “ Claiborne” and “Nippon” doesn’t turn up anything relevant. I tried “negimaki” and “negimayuaki” and “negima-yaki,” with the results below. The Los Angeles Times digitization is now through 1964, and I’m still waiting for a “ California roll” in its pages. If I see an earlier “negimaki” or “negimayaki,” I’ll add it here. 11 November 1963, New York Times, pg. 37: They are the Nippon at 145 East 52d Street, and the new Saito at 131 West 52d Street (...) Although sushi may seem a trifle “far out” for many American palates, such dishes as teriyaki )steak, pork or chicken marinated in soy sauce and grilled), shiwo-yaki (pork or chicken broiled with salt and served with a soy and lemon sauce), as well as the familiar tempura and sukiyaki, have an immediate and almost universal appeal. (It’s not mentioned here—ed.) 5 December 1975, New York Times, pg. 55: Among the appetizers (we give prices of full portions here-you get smaller poritons with dinners) we had an excellent negimaki-beef wrapped around scallions with teriyaki sauce ($2.75). 23 December 1977, Valley News *Van Nuys, CA), pg. 41, col. 2: Inagiku Menu Highlights 9th Floor, Bonaventure Hotel 5th And Figueroa, Downtown Los Angeles (...) negimayaki, $2..50 (...)13 April 1979, New York TImes, pg. C18: Negima-yaki, tender beef roll-ups wrapped around scallions and broiled in a soy marinade, were lovely and firm one night, but at another time were much too soft and drowned in sauce. (Mimi Sheraton’s one-star review of Nippon, 145 East 62d Street—ed.) * * * From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 21:52:38 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:52:38 -0400 Subject: Giclee In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D012196C3@rdec-exch8.ds.amr dec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 03:11 AM 7/24/2004, you wrote: > "Giclee" is a word meaning "expensive inkjet print". People who sell "fine >art prints" use big inkjet printers to make them. Giclee is French for >something or other that justifies its use, but it's a fancy inkjet printer, >is all. I guess "giclee" = "squirt" or "spurt" ... seems appropriate. >... quelle grosse giclee t'a envoyee ... une giclee de tortures .... une >derniere giclee de sperme .... Fine nuances of French are beyond me, but maybe some of these items aren't related to art prints. -- Doug Wilson From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 22:28:13 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:28:13 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In Lynchburg, VA, -- 50's-60's-I learned the first line as "What's MY name?" Doesn't it fit better with the third line--Ask ME again? Wilson Gray wrote:On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Jul 25 00:35:47 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:35:47 -0400 Subject: Ginormous In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$5qilk@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I'm 26, and many of my friends feel comfortable using "ginormous" all the time. Also keep an eye out for "ab-fab" (popularized by the British comedy), fantabulous, fabu ("fabu" is more current than "fab"), and faburrific. Vying for first place in the Most Common category with "ginormous" is "a fuckload of." The latter is not as interesting and probably not nearly as new. Also, adding -licious to pretty much anything plays well. You could add it to a name, as in Pierrelicious or Bonolicious. More common is the well-known bootylicious or other derivations from nouns, such as chocolicious. http://www.fontalicious.com/ (with a noun) http://www.soapylicious.com/ (with an adjective) http://www.dookalicious.cjb.net/ (with a name) http://madonnalicious.com/ http://www.gigaom.com/2004/07/motolicious.php (with a product name) deeviliciouz.blogspot.com/ ("Devilicious" and "fantarrific" in the same site!) http://www.faburecords.com/ http://home.nyc.rr.com/stevenjs/fabu.html http://stores.ebay.com/2-2-FaBu-Fabulous-Accessories http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fantabulous http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/showphoto.php/photo/4390 (This is the only hit I found of "faburrific" on Google, though I expect to see more soon. My age group already uses it quite a bit in conversation.) "Just a faburrific job, especially with the weathering and the repaint of the Tom Sizemore RPT head. Excellent indeed." At 06:03 AM 7/24/2004 -0700, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; > barrypopik.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by >a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past >few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. > >JL ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 00:42:53 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:42:53 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241528.1bOv0d2Uj3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In Lynchburg, VA, -- 50's-60's-I learned the first line as "What's MY > name?" Doesn't it fit better with the third line--Ask ME again? I know this rhyme or whatever it ought to be called as a kind of verbal practical joke. Someone asks someone else, "What's your name?" The person asked, instead of answering "John" or whatever, replies with the remaining three lines. However, I do see that, even if the person asked replied by echoing the question: "What's my name?", thereby making the response four lines long instead of three, the game would still play out as intended. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote:On my very first day in the > first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 01:11:32 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:11:32 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad Mother For You" by Dirty Red. In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. -Wilson Gray From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jul 25 02:54:26 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:54:26 -0700 Subject: circle jerk Message-ID: I was struck by the conclusion of Daniel Rodosh's Talk of the Town piece "The Pet Goat Approach", in the 7/26/04 New Yorker. It's an interview with Direct Instruction founder Siegfried (Zig) Engelmann (now famous as the author of the "The Pet Goat" material featured in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11"). At the end, Engelmann talks about politics: "For whatever it's worth, I think Iraq is a total circle jerk," he said. "I couldn't think of how to do it worse." Circle jerk? The classic circle jerk is a bunch (I think three is the minimum number) of adolescent boys masturbating in front of one another. (An actual circle isn't required. I think "circle" figures in the name mostly for its phonetic values: the [rk] of "jerk", in particular.) The accompanying values include: showing off in front of other males, and reinforcing each other's arousal. (Classically, this is very much a straight-guy thing, and nobody touches anybody else. It's a visual thing.) Plus the fact that it's masturbation (see other postings on this topic), that is, "worthless", unproductive activity. Then we get extensions from this in various directions: adults; standing side to side, touching; openly gay men, frankly appreciating each other; mutual masturbation; a sense of exchanging sexual favors. And metaphorical extensions from there: competitive display, egging each other on, mutual admiration, trading favors, unproductive group activity, and so on. There are a lot of different directions here, and I'm not sure which one(s) Engelmann intended. Google cites are all over the map, including the metaphorical "mutual masturbation" sense of the satirical (5), though they all seem to deprecate the activity in question: ---------- (1) http://rynemcclaren.typepad.com/blog/2004/06/a_rabid_right_c.html The Dakota Alliance seems to have hit it rather big, as we all know. Now they've reached the pinnacle: attention from a left of center blog. The results are quite strange, featuring little besides name calling: ... Now all bloggers cite or refer to other blogs they read. That isn't the issue. What gets me is that so much of what's been appearing on these rabid dog blogs lately is nothing more than "I saw what you posted, now say something about what I posted." The main variation seems to be who starts the circle jerk... --------- (2) http://billmon.org/archives/001361.html April 09, 2004 Circle Jerk Or, to use the polite Pentagon expression: "incestuous amplification." Also known as "group think."... --------- (3) http://www.justagwailo.com/filter/2003/08/21/big-global-circle-jerk August 21st, 2003 Big Global Circle Jerk chunshek: I’m telling you. This thing called the Web… it’s all a big global circle jerk. sillygwailo: no, that’s just weblogs. -------- (4) http://zdnet.com.com/5208-1104-0.html? forumID=1&threadID=2278&messageID=48111&start=-35 Big Circle Jerk The lack of cooperation (or should I say the abundance of competitiveness) and the finger pointing on this topic are typical of this industry. If cooperation doesn't exist on critical issues between the parties concerned, there's an opportunity to be an 'industry leader'. (There, that should satisfy the marketeers, mousketeers, and assorted corporate gerbils.) -------- (5) http://www.datelinehollywood.com/showarticle.php?articleID=150 SAG AWARDS END IN MASS CIRCLE JERK Actors finish orgy of self-congratulation with actual orgy HOLLYWOOD — In a remarkable moment that didn’t make TNT’s telecast of the event, Sunday night’s Screen Actors Guild awards ended with a massive circle jerk in which nearly every major Hollywood star manually stimulated another Hollywood star, bringing them to orgasm while whispering in the other’s ear how talented they are and that they truly deserve to win an Academy Award. From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sun Jul 25 03:46:07 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:46:07 -0700 Subject: circle jerk Message-ID: HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. Tom Dalzell Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > I was struck by the conclusion of Daniel Rodosh's Talk of the Town > piece "The Pet Goat Approach", in the 7/26/04 New Yorker. It's an > interview with Direct Instruction founder Siegfried (Zig) Engelmann > (now famous as the author of the "The Pet Goat" material featured in > Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11"). At the end, Engelmann talks about > politics: > > "For whatever it's worth, I think Iraq is a total circle jerk," he > said. "I couldn't think of how to do it worse." > > Circle jerk? The classic circle jerk is a bunch (I think three is the > minimum number) of adolescent boys masturbating in front of one > another. (An actual circle isn't required. I think "circle" figures > in the name mostly for its phonetic values: the [rk] of "jerk", in > particular.) The accompanying values include: showing off in front of > other males, and reinforcing each other's arousal. (Classically, this > is very much a straight-guy thing, and nobody touches anybody else. > It's a visual thing.) Plus the fact that it's masturbation (see other > postings on this topic), that is, "worthless", unproductive activity. > > Then we get extensions from this in various directions: adults; > standing side to side, touching; openly gay men, frankly appreciating > each other; mutual masturbation; a sense of exchanging sexual favors. > And metaphorical extensions from there: competitive display, egging > each other on, mutual admiration, trading favors, unproductive group > activity, and so on. > > There are a lot of different directions here, and I'm not sure which > one(s) Engelmann intended. Google cites are all over the map, > including the metaphorical "mutual masturbation" sense of the satirical > (5), though they all seem to deprecate the activity in question: > > ---------- > > (1) http://rynemcclaren.typepad.com/blog/2004/06/a_rabid_right_c.html > > The Dakota Alliance seems to have hit it rather big, as we all know. > Now they've reached the pinnacle: attention from a left of center blog. > > The results are quite strange, featuring little besides name calling: > > ... Now all bloggers cite or refer to other blogs they read. That isn't > the issue. What gets me is that so much of what's been appearing on > these rabid dog blogs lately is nothing more than "I saw what you > posted, now say something about what I posted." The main variation > seems to be who starts the circle jerk... > > --------- > > (2) http://billmon.org/archives/001361.html > > April 09, 2004 > Circle Jerk > > Or, to use the polite Pentagon expression: "incestuous amplification." > Also known as "group think."... > > --------- > > (3) http://www.justagwailo.com/filter/2003/08/21/big-global-circle-jerk > > August 21st, 2003 > Big Global Circle Jerk > > chunshek: I’m telling you. This thing called the Web… it’s all a big > global circle jerk. > sillygwailo: no, that’s just weblogs. > > -------- > > (4) > http://zdnet.com.com/5208-1104-0.html? > forumID=1&threadID=2278&messageID=48111&start=-35 > > Big Circle Jerk > > The lack of cooperation (or should I say the abundance of > competitiveness) and the finger pointing on this topic are typical of > this industry. If cooperation doesn't exist on critical issues between > the parties concerned, there's an opportunity to be an 'industry > leader'. (There, that should satisfy the marketeers, mousketeers, and > assorted corporate gerbils.) > > -------- > > (5) http://www.datelinehollywood.com/showarticle.php?articleID=150 > > SAG AWARDS END IN MASS CIRCLE JERK > > Actors finish orgy of self-congratulation with actual orgy > > HOLLYWOOD — In a remarkable moment that didn’t make TNT’s telecast of > the event, Sunday night’s Screen Actors Guild awards ended with a > massive circle jerk in which nearly every major Hollywood star manually > stimulated another Hollywood star, bringing them to orgasm while > whispering in the other’s ear how talented they are and that they truly > deserve to win an Academy Award. > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 25 04:07:26 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:07:26 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <275C4E48-DD96-11D8-ADF3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: The mouse >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning >>picking things up off the floor, mainly. >> >>JL > >Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for >Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. > >-Wilson Gray > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it from someone earlier? larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 25 04:02:15 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:02:15 -0400 Subject: circle jerk In-Reply-To: <41032CFF.5010208@pacbell.net> Message-ID: >HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything >earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. I think this is about like "cluster f*ck" (literally "orgy" I suppose), "goat f*ck", "pooch screw", etc. Instead of getting their job done, the participants are engaged in undisciplined, undignified, useless activity: e.g., metaphorically, group sex or sex with animals. That's how I picture it anyway. These all seem sort of military, I think. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 25 04:53:51 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:53:51 -0700 Subject: circle jerk In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040724234754.02f386a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Douglas G. Wilson > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:02 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: circle jerk > > > >HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything > >earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. > > I think this is about like "cluster f*ck" (literally "orgy" I suppose), > "goat f*ck", "pooch screw", etc. > > Instead of getting their job done, the participants are engaged in > undisciplined, undignified, useless activity: e.g., metaphorically, group > sex or sex with animals. That's how I picture it anyway. These all seem > sort of military, I think. But this is a slightly different sense than cited by Mr. Zwicky. His cites used the term to mean a session of mutual admiration. Even the citations relating to the mess in Iraq are in the context of neocons convincing each other that their ideas were correct. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 05:38:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:38:57 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407242116.1bOAqT4gY3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: Beats the shit outta me, Lar. I know it from a Blind Lemon Jefferson recording. Actually, it's a line favored by several Texas bluesmen. But I have no idea as to whether any of them proceeded or followed Jimmie Rodgers. I restrict myself to the Texas-Louisiana-Mississippi axis, with very few exceptions, just as a matter of preference. We Texans, regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, are as chauvinistic about our state as we're reputed to be. [Please don't forget that Dubyuh is a native of *Connecticut* and NOT of Texas!] "Well, I've been to Dallas and I've been to San Antone, but there's a place called Marshall where I'm better known." - Floyd Dixon: Marshall, Texas, Is My Home. -Wilson On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The mouse >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning >>> picking things up off the floor, mainly. >>> >>> JL >> >> Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for >> Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for > Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it > from someone earlier? > > larry > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Jul 25 06:53:03 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:53:03 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: <> Yes. My father (b. 1920, Pittsburgh; grew up in Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and various PA towns) used to recite "What's your name/Pudding and tain. . . ." to his children in the '50s. I've also heard one of my aunts say it. Their father, by the way, was from Baltimore and their mother from Minnesota. I have a vague recollection of a British Isles folk song that uses "ask me again and I'll tell you the same". But perhaps I'm thinking of the similar recursion of "Ask me no questions/I'll tell you no lies", and "Bread and butter on the shelf/If you want any more, you can sing it yourself". Seán Fitzpatrick It's a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From mercedes.durham at UNIFR.CH Sun Jul 25 12:24:24 2004 From: mercedes.durham at UNIFR.CH (DURHAM Mercedes) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:24:24 +0200 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: My guess would be that the mouse comes from French - where the tooth fairy is called 'la petite souris'. Mercedes Durham English Linguistics University of Fribourg Switzerland Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:28:14 -0500 From: Janis Vizier Nihart Subject: The mouse I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with the = expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jul 25 13:56:44 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:56:44 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <90FF52DB-DDD7-11D8-ADF3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sat Jul 24 22:09:48 2004 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:09:48 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: And reel-uh-tor for reel-tor Bob You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into --- Jonathon Swift People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts---Sen. Dan Moynihan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Coye" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a sound > change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or ath-uh-let-ic > (never heard anyone say this either, but theres a famous Ring Lardner story, I > believe it's "You can look it up" where the narrator refers to the > Philadelphia Ath-uh-letics. Another example is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some > dialects use. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 15:31:51 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Go get 'em, Jesse! Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would have been in boldface. The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 16:02:50 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:02:50 -0700 Subject: Ginormous Message-ID: Thanks, Carolina. I have one "fabu / faboo" only and no "faburiffics." Your note is most helpful. JL Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Carolina Jimenez-Marcos Subject: Re: Ginormous ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm 26, and many of my friends feel comfortable using "ginormous" all the time. Also keep an eye out for "ab-fab" (popularized by the British comedy), fantabulous, fabu ("fabu" is more current than "fab"), and faburrific. Vying for first place in the Most Common category with "ginormous" is "a fuckload of." The latter is not as interesting and probably not nearly as new. Also, adding -licious to pretty much anything plays well. You could add it to a name, as in Pierrelicious or Bonolicious. More common is the well-known bootylicious or other derivations from nouns, such as chocolicious. http://www.fontalicious.com/ (with a noun) http://www.soapylicious.com/ (with an adjective) http://www.dookalicious.cjb.net/ (with a name) http://madonnalicious.com/ http://www.gigaom.com/2004/07/motolicious.php (with a product name) deeviliciouz.blogspot.com/ ("Devilicious" and "fantarrific" in the same site!) http://www.faburecords.com/ http://home.nyc.rr.com/stevenjs/fabu.html http://stores.ebay.com/2-2-FaBu-Fabulous-Accessories http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fantabulous http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/showphoto.php/photo/4390 (This is the only hit I found of "faburrific" on Google, though I expect to see more soon. My age group already uses it quite a bit in conversation.) "Just a faburrific job, especially with the weathering and the repaint of the Tom Sizemore RPT head. Excellent indeed." At 06:03 AM 7/24/2004 -0700, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; > barrypopik.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by >a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past >few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. > >JL ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 16:11:04 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:11:04 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad Mother For You" by Dirty Red. In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jul 25 16:30:37 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:30:37 -0400 Subject: JASSM Message-ID: Not-so-curious acronym for a missile: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040527/dath024_1.html "Lockheed Martin and members of the Department of Defense celebrated the expansion of the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM) production facility today at its Pike County Operations in Troy, AL. The expansion allows JASSM production to increase to a rate of 40 missiles per month." Grant Barrett -- Grant Barrett Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang" (2004) Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester http://www.doubletongued.org/ Webmaster, American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org/ From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 25 16:47:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:47:47 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <20040725161104.19840.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act like/as the X"? E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play possum". And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: "cut the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to show some examples. Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and "play" can? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 25 20:13:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:13:56 EDT Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") Message-ID: "BROOKLYN SIDE" & BIG APPLE WEB SITE For some reason, I'm doing a New York City web site for a city has never been the least bit kind to me. Three years' work of mine is in the old ADS-L archives, that is no longer available to anyone. It's my first web site, and I'm working with codes that I wasn't even taught yet. It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A Google for "Barry Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's still behind such things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is "The Straight Dope." Gerald Cohen, Language Log, and Language Hat have commented to others how "disorganized" the site is, how I "hide my light under a series of bushels," and the latter two have told people to avoid the site entirely and go to the short summary of my work on "The Straight Dope." Thanks. Why even try? Someone wrote into Language Log with John Ciardi's old "manzana principal, New Orleans jazzman, 1910" theory. I said again that there is not one piece of evidence for this in some fifty million digitized pages (newspapers and magazines) that we know. A 20-year-old Ciardi book should not be consulted. It's like saying, screw Lighter and Green on slang, I have my H. L. Mencken, and he's tops. "Manzana principal" has nothing to do with "the Big Apple" and should not be mentioned anymore, but no one believes me. Anyway, I'm adding "Brooklyn side" to the site. Lighter and DARE are silent. Sam Clements found a "10 Jan. 1911 _Decatur (IL) Reveiw_" article, but it appears that this is actually from 13 January 1911. The 1917 Washington Post story is also interesting for the term "Brooklyn side." 13 January 1913, Decatur (IL) Review, pg. 4, cols. 1-2: HIT 'EM ON "BROOKLYN SIDE" AND YOU WIN AT BOWLING St. Louis, Jan. 13.--Do you tenpin? Of course--you have to, to be in style, for the next month. It's quite Country CLubby, you know. If you doubt, drift into the Middgy club's lounging place and see the Silk Stocking Seven at work. INSIDE TALK But supposing that you do bowl--bowl at times when it's not just the fad. Suppose you're a regular. Do you know what is meant by the "Brooklyn side"? And if you are so close to the inner circle of the game that you happen to have heard the expression, do you know its origin? HEAVY BET. It's a grape fruit to a grape seed you don't. Here's the story--it's told by H. W. Harrington, now of St. Louis, formerly a member of the champion Chicago team, which beat the New York cracks back in the dim days before the American Bowling congress was a de facto organization. That is to say, just twelve years ago. AT ST/. LOUIS. Harrington and one of his teammates on the five that made the memorable trip to New York from the Windy City in 1899, W. V. THompson, will bowl an exhibition match as one of the features of the national championship tournament, which will open here Jan. 21. Here's Mr. Harrington's tale: HIS STORY. "The alleys were not alltogether at their best. THey had been bowled on a good deal and there were spots where the bowler would be favored, if he could only search them out. To this end Brill had been studying the boards during the match. The alleys were located downtown near the river and so disposed that the left-hand side of the runway was toward Brooklyn. GAVE HIM TIP. "Thompson walked up to shoot his first ball and Brill could see from his stand that he was going after the "one-three" break. This means hitting on the right hand-side of the head pin. Brill had observed some ugly "splits" resulted from this play. As Thompson was about to make his shot Brill shouted out: "Not that way, not that way--try the 'Brooklyn side!': Thompson halted in his delivery when Brill went over and explained. "All the good breaks are coming on the left side of the head pin. Play for the one-two, instead of the one-three break." WON THE MATCH. "Thompson did and struck the game out, winning the match by ten pins majority. "Among the bowlers the 'one-three' break, using a hook ball, is considered safest to give best results, especially on new alleys. But whenever they find that the alleys are not "grooved" to suit their particular style of bowling they always try the 'Brooklyn side.' "The name still clings." 9 January 1917, Mansfield (Ohio) News, pg. 12, col. 2: Left-handed bowlers start their deliveries on the left-handed corner, but shoot for the 1-2 or "Brooklyn," instead of the "New York," ar right-handers do. Only when a bowler fails to get pins on a 1-3 hit, does he cross over to the 1-2 or "Brooklyn" side. It all depends on the alley. 22 April 1917, Washington Post, pg. S2: EQUAL ON TENPIN BASIS Same Results Possible on "Brooklyn" as "New York" side" A 1-3 hit in tenpins is called "the New York," while when a pin-toppler hits them on the other side of the 1-2 it is termed a "Brooklyn" The terms originated many years ago in New York in a famous match, when one of the men bowling found that he could get plus equally as well by hitting the 1-2 as the 1-3. The alleys on which the above match was rolled ran parallel with the river. The 1-2 side of the pine faced toward the river or Brooklyn side, and the 1-3 inland or to New York. 3 June 1958, New York Times, pg. 40: ...I hit the Brooklyn side (between the 1 and 2 pins)... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made a single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire pathetic life. (CHARLOTTE OBSERVER) Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog RON GREEN SR. Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's hoist a jar of mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half the night to circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on TV -- you know the type. It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat, because, well, darn it, we love 'em. It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball game without eating a hot dog. There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks. That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We eat billions every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name hot dog. On a cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out to buy up all the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obvious reasons) and rolls they could find. In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands, probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund so he called them hot dogs. Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few clichés and a sizeable thirst. (FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! A Summer Taste Test By Matthew Goodman July 23, 2004 There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the 1970s, thanks to, of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial — for those of you who threw out your televisions in the 1960s — a man dressed as Uncle Sam stands holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced narrator recites some of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American government allows to be put in frankfurters. "We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to where the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebrew National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, and made them a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food — not always correctly — as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher buyers are not even Jewish. Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the Brooklyn, N.Y., seaside community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the beach, found that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to be sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business, Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donovan) to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltman began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages in a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so successful that within the decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast food complex, turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many as 1,200 waiters. However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up a stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling competing hot dogs. (The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his hot-dog stand after himself, calling it — need I even say this? — Nathan's Famous. At Nathan's hot dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages before them, were made from beef rather than pork. (ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) Hot dog vendors on a roll Carts let people know when summertime is really here Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN News Staff Reporter (...) Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Polo Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spell "dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of the story. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jul 25 22:03:51 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:03:51 -0500 Subject: Errant journalistic treatments of "hot dog" Message-ID: The journalistic items reproduced below by Barry have no more significance than a pimple on an elephant's behind. The important developments are the "hot-dog" book I'm presently compiling (authors: Popik, Shulman, Cohen) and Becky Mercuri's "hot dog" book (in progress), both of which give due credit to Barry for his extraordinary research. Bruce Kraig also has an article in the works, and in several e-mails he shows he is well aware of Barry's research and the falsity of the Dorgan/Stevens/Polo Ground story. As for Barry's website, it's a major undertaking, and several ads-l members have already congratulated him for starting it. I now join them in this. Gerald Cohen At 4:13 PM -0400 7/25/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH > This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. > >It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made a >single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire pathetic >life. > > >(CHARLOTTE OBSERVER) >Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 >At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog > > >RON GREEN SR. > > >Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or >never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's >hoist a jar of >mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. > >The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down >to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate >end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half >the night to >circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on TV >-- you know the type. > >It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat, >because, well, darn it, we love 'em. > >It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball >game without eating a hot dog. > >There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks. >That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We >eat billions >every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. > >We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a >sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name >hot dog. On a >cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little >business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out >to buy up all >the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obvious >reasons) and rolls they could find. > >In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands, >probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" > >The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an >idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund >sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund >so he called >them hot dogs. > >Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have >never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few >clichés and a sizeable thirst. > > > >(FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) >THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! >A Summer Taste Test >By Matthew Goodman >July 23, 2004 >There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher >frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the >1970s, thanks to, >of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial - for those of you who >threw out your televisions in the 1960s - a man dressed as Uncle Sam stands >holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced >narrator recites some >of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American >government allows to >be put in frankfurters. > >"We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows >increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to where >the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term >Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebrew >National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." > >This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never >had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, >and made them >a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as >the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food - not always >correctly - as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher >buyers are not >even Jewish. > >Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle >Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a >frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the >Brooklyn, N.Y., seaside >community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who >earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the >beach, found >that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to be >sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business, >Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donovan) >to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltman >began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages in >a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter >sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so >successful that within the >decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous >Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast >food complex, >turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many as >1,200 waiters. > >However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own >undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up a >stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling >competing hot dogs. >(The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago >cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a >frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his >hot-dog stand after >himself, calling it - need I even say this? - Nathan's Famous. At Nathan's hot >dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the >street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more >significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages >before them, were >made from beef rather than pork. > > >(ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) >Hot dog vendors on a roll > >Carts let people know when summertime is really here > >Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN > >News Staff Reporter >(...) >Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their >name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Polo >Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red >hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spell >"dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of the >story. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 22:21:12 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:21:12 -0700 Subject: New simile Message-ID: Am posting this now rather than allowing myself to forget. A news reporter on Fox (sorry, guys) observed yesterday that security for the convention in Boston is, "as a friend of mine used to say, 'tight as two coats of paint on a bowling pin.'" JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 22:40:34 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:40:34 -0700 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") Message-ID: Barry, Just checked out your new site and it rox. Realize that the media are not interested in FACTS about word origins; they're interested in STORIES with a beginning middle, and end. The FACTS about Big Apple - and I tried to get as many of them into HDAS Vol. I as I could (nod to Gerry Cohen goes here) - end in uncertainty: "Well, which of those guys in N.O. REALLY invented it then? (Am paraphrasing, of course.) Next time someone discovers an ex. of the insignificant collocation "big apple" ANYWHERE before 1909 expect a new wave of interest: "WOW, a NEW clue!" Gotta go. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "BROOKLYN SIDE" & BIG APPLE WEB SITE =20 For some reason, I'm doing a New York City web site for a city has never bee= n=20 the least bit kind to me. Three years' work of mine is in the old ADS-L=20 archives, that is no longer available to anyone. It's my first web site, and= I'm=20 working with codes that I wasn't even taught yet. =20 It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist=20 mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A Google for "Bar= ry=20 Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's still behind su= ch=20 things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is "The Straig= ht=20 Dope." =20 Gerald Cohen, Language Log, and Language Hat have commented to others how=20 "disorganized" the site is, how I "hide my light under a series of bushels,"= and=20 the latter two have told people to avoid the site entirely and go to the sho= rt=20 summary of my work on "The Straight Dope." Thanks. Why even try? =20 Someone wrote into Language Log with John Ciardi's old "manzana principal,=20 New Orleans jazzman, 1910" theory. I said again that there is not one piece=20= of=20 evidence for this in some fifty million digitized pages (newspapers and=20 magazines) that we know. A 20-year-old Ciardi book should not be consulted.=20= It's like=20 saying, screw Lighter and Green on slang, I have my H. L. Mencken, and he's=20 tops. "Manzana principal" has nothing to do with "the Big Apple" and should=20= not=20 be mentioned anymore, but no one believes me. =20 Anyway, I'm adding "Brooklyn side" to the site. Lighter and DARE are silent.= =20 Sam Clements found a "10 Jan. 1911 _Decatur (IL) Reveiw_" article, but it=20 appears that this is actually from 13 January 1911. The 1917 Washington Post= story=20 is also interesting for the term "Brooklyn side." =20 =20 13 January 1913, Decatur (IL) Review, pg. 4, cols. 1-2: HIT 'EM ON "BROOKLYN SIDE" AND YOU WIN AT BOWLING St. Louis, Jan. 13.--Do you tenpin? Of course--you have to, to be in style,=20 for the next month. It's quite Country CLubby, you know. If you doubt, drift= =20 into the Middgy club's lounging place and see the Silk Stocking Seven at wor= k. =20 INSIDE TALK =20 But supposing that you do bowl--bowl at times when it's not just the fad.=20 Suppose you're a regular. Do you know what is meant by the "Brooklyn side"?=20= And=20 if you are so close to the inner circle of the game that you happen to have=20 heard the expression, do you know its origin? =20 HEAVY BET. =20 It's a grape fruit to a grape seed you don't. =20 Here's the story--it's told by H. W. Harrington, now of St. Louis, formerly=20= a=20 member of the champion Chicago team, which beat the New York cracks back in=20 the dim days before the American Bowling congress was a de facto organizatio= n.=20 That is to say, just twelve years ago. =20 AT ST/. LOUIS. =20 Harrington and one of his teammates on the five that made the memorable trip= =20 to New York from the Windy City in 1899, W. V. THompson, will bowl an=20 exhibition match as one of the features of the national championship tournam= ent, which=20 will open here Jan. 21. Here's Mr. Harrington's tale: =20 HIS STORY.=20 =20 "The alleys were not alltogether at their best. THey had been bowled on a=20 good deal and there were spots where the bowler would be favored, if he coul= d=20 only search them out. To this end Brill had been studying the boards during=20= the=20 match. The alleys were located downtown near the river and so disposed that=20= the=20 left-hand side of the runway was toward Brooklyn. =20 GAVE HIM TIP. =20 "Thompson walked up to shoot his first ball and Brill could see from his=20 stand that he was going after the "one-three" break. This means hitting on t= he=20 right hand-side of the head pin. Brill had observed some ugly "splits" resul= ted=20 from this play. As Thompson was about to make his shot Brill shouted out: =20 "Not that way, not that way--try the 'Brooklyn side!': =20 Thompson halted in his delivery when Brill went over and explained. =20 "All the good breaks are coming on the left side of the head pin. Play for=20 the one-two, instead of the one-three break." =20 WON THE MATCH. =20 "Thompson did and struck the game out, winning the match by ten pins=20 majority. =20 "Among the bowlers the 'one-three' break, using a hook ball, is considered=20 safest to give best results, especially on new alleys. But whenever they fin= d=20 that the alleys are not "grooved" to suit their particular style of bowling=20= they=20 always try the 'Brooklyn side.' =20 "The name still clings." =20 =20 9 January 1917, Mansfield (Ohio) News, pg. 12, col. 2: Left-handed bowlers start their deliveries on the left-handed corner, but=20 shoot for the 1-2 or "Brooklyn," instead of the "New York," ar right-handers= do. =20 Only when a bowler fails to get pins on a 1-3 hit, does he cross over to the= =20 1-2 or "Brooklyn" side. It all depends on the alley. =20 =20 22 April 1917, Washington Post, pg. S2: EQUAL ON TENPIN BASIS Same Results Possible on "Brooklyn" as "New York" side" =20 A 1-3 hit in tenpins is called "the New York," while when a pin-toppler hits= =20 them on the other side of the 1-2 it is termed a "Brooklyn" =20 The terms originated many years ago in New York in a famous match, when one=20 of the men bowling found that he could get plus equally as well by hitting t= he=20 1-2 as the 1-3. =20 The alleys on which the above match was rolled ran parallel with the river.=20 The 1-2 side of the pine faced toward the river or Brooklyn side, and the 1-= 3=20 inland or to New York. =20 =20 3 June 1958, New York Times, pg. 40: ...I hit the Brooklyn side (between the 1 and 2 pins)... =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -------------------------------------------- JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH =20 This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. =20 It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made=20= a=20 single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire patheti= c=20 life. =20 =20 (CHARLOTTE OBSERVER)=20 Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 =20 At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog RON GREEN SR. Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or=20 never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's hoist a ja= r of=20 mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down=20 to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate= =20 end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half the nigh= t to=20 circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on T= V=20 -- you know the type. It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat,=20 because, well, darn it, we love 'em. It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball=20 game without eating a hot dog. There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks.=20 That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We eat billi= ons=20 every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a=20 sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name hot dog.= On a=20 cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little=20 business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out to buy=20= up all=20 the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obviou= s=20 reasons) and rolls they could find. In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands,= =20 probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an= =20 idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund=20 sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund so he c= alled=20 them hot dogs. Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have=20 never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few=20 clich=C3=A9s and a sizeable thirst. =20 =20 (FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! A Summer Taste Test By Matthew Goodman July 23, 2004 There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher=20 frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the 1970s, th= anks to,=20 of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial =E2=80=94 for those of yo= u who=20 threw out your televisions in the 1960s =E2=80=94 a man dressed as Uncle Sam= stands=20 holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced narrator recite= s some=20 of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American government allows= to=20 be put in frankfurters. =20 "We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows= =20 increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to wher= e=20 the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term=20 Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebre= w=20 National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." =20 This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never=20 had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, and made t= hem=20 a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as=20 the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food =E2=80=94 not= always=20 correctly =E2=80=94 as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher=20= buyers are not=20 even Jewish.=20 =20 Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle=20 Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a=20 frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the Brooklyn, N.Y= ., seaside=20 community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who=20 earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the beach, f= ound=20 that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to b= e=20 sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business,= =20 Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donova= n)=20 to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltm= an=20 began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages i= n=20 a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter=20 sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so successful that=20= within the=20 decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous=20 Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast food compl= ex,=20 turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many=20= as=20 1,200 waiters.=20 =20 However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own=20 undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up=20= a=20 stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling competing hot=20= dogs.=20 (The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago=20 cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a=20 frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his hot-dog stan= d after=20 himself, calling it =E2=80=94 need I even say this? =E2=80=94 Nathan's Famou= s. At Nathan's hot=20 dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the= =20 street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more=20 significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages before=20= them, were=20 made from beef rather than pork.=20 (ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) Hot dog vendors on a roll=20 Carts let people know when summertime is really here=20 Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN=20 News Staff Reporter =20 (...) Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their= =20 name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Pol= o=20 Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red=20 hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spel= l=20 "dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of t= he=20 story. =20 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 25 23:07:35 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:07:35 -0700 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") In-Reply-To: <15b.3ab15055.2e356e84@aol.com> Message-ID: > It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist > mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A > Google for "Barry > Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's > still behind such > things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is > "The Straight > Dope." Barry, you have to give other sites time to create links to it. Google's rankings are largely based on how many sites link to yours, and more importantly, the popularity of the sites that link to yours. I just created a link from my site to yours yesterday. As sites like mine link to yours, your ranking will go up. (It'll be tough to top "The Straight Dope" though.) --Dave Wilton dave at wordorigins.org http://www.wordorigins.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 00:51:50 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152352.01d62a00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: We always cut them vertically (and I still do), giving two symetric (more or less) halves with equal amounts of crust. --- Beverly Flanigan wrote: > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I > was a kid! But when I > got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut > diagonally (I never called > that "across"). > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean > cutting it diagonally. > >And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* > (horizontal) middle seems very very > >freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And > I have no words to describe > >how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. > > > >-dsb > >Douglas S. Bigham > >Department of Linguistics > >University of Texas - Austin > >http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 02:19:30 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:19:30 -0400 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") In-Reply-To: <20040725224034.86219.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:40 PM -0700 7/25/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Barry, > >Just checked out your new site and it rox. Realize that the media >are not interested in FACTS about word origins; they're interested >in STORIES with a beginning middle, and end. The FACTS about Big >Apple - and I tried to get as many of them into HDAS Vol. I as I >could (nod to Gerry Cohen goes here) - end in uncertainty: "Well, >which of those guys in N.O. REALLY invented it then? (Am >paraphrasing, of course.) Very true, and very much along the lines of the pursuit of the first "baseball game", which as we've seen (i) overlaps with the quest for antedates for "baseball" or "base ball" as a lexical item and (ii) probably won't ever be known absolutely, given the family resemblances (as Wittgenstein would call them) among various games. So, as we've discussed not long ago, the press fell all over itself recently (in May, IIRC) about the 1791 Pittsfield document that includes a reference to "base ball", without bothering to check on whether it's the same (or similar enough) referent to "THE" game of baseball, very much along the lines of Jonathan's observation here... > >Next time someone discovers an ex. of the insignificant collocation >"big apple" ANYWHERE before 1909 expect a new wave of interest: >"WOW, a NEW clue!" > On the other hand, the Pittsfield push-back does make for a more informed narrative about the origins of our pastime than the standard Cooperstown/Doubleday alternative, which Stephen Jay Gould picked apart. Gould detailed in a number of places the fact how our love for narratives/stories leads us astray in science and elsewhere, and I've tried to argue (in my Spitten Image paper, in re "Welsh rarebit" et al.) that his points on narrative bias carry over directly to the realm of etymythology (as they do to non-lexical urban legends). larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 26 03:18:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:18:44 EDT Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) Message-ID: Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much credit. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) IN DARKEST NEW YORK.; Dreadful Places and Dreadful Things in the American Metropolis. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 24, 1890. p. 5 (1 page) : _The Churchman:_ (...) We must pass over his description of Jewtown and its sweat-shops, in which miserable Jews spend eighteen hours a day at slop-work for the clothing manufacturers, and from which clothing is often sent out leaded with the infection of small-pox and typhus. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jul 26 03:22:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:22:35 -0400 Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) Message-ID: >Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) > Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February > 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much > credit. So, I should take back the letter I just sent to the Straight Dope, asking them to provide a live link to your site? :) SC From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 26 03:39:48 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:39:48 -0700 Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) In-Reply-To: <200407260318.i6Q3Iq9K032695@mxe2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Interesting, isn't it, that the threat of small pox was attached to the shirtwaists produced in these shops. If it had been there, the epidemics would have really made the news! Wasn't it smallpox on blankets that decimated Western Native American villages? Says so, at least, in the Canadian Provincial Museum at Victoria, BC. TB was certainly prevalent in the sweatshops, as was "white lung." Similar to coal miner's "black lung," "white lung" (I think the medical term for it is bissinosis) was the result of inhaling small cotton fibers thrown off by the sewing machines. Also found in the weaving and knitting factories at Lawrence, Massachusetts -- another set of immigrants, if I'm not mistaken. Immigrants always were great scapegoats for disease -- consider the French disease (England), which the French called the English Disease! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February > 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much > credit. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > IN DARKEST NEW YORK.; Dreadful Places and Dreadful Things in the American > Metropolis. > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 24, 1890. p. 5 (1 page) > : > _The Churchman:_ (...) > We must pass over his description of Jewtown and its sweat-shops, in which > miserable Jews spend eighteen hours a day at slop-work for the clothing > manufacturers, and from which clothing is often sent out leaded with the infection of > small-pox and typhus. > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 26 04:28:27 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:28:27 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) Message-ID: Here is "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" as sung by Clara Smith in 1929: a very early example of "poontang". At this time "poontang" = "sex" already existed, as exemplified in _Look Homeward, Angel_ (1929, relevant parts set in about 1913: three instances). The words on my record are generally clear and unambiguous (two are possibly questionable as shown below). ---------- Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'll tell the world that it's a whang. I like your good peach cobbler and your apple pie, But when I get your poontang you will hear me cry: Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Mr. Mitchell owned a sweet confectionery stand, Way down south in Lou'siana. Mr. Mitchell always have [had?] good pies and cakes on hand, Surge [Served?] in a pleasing manner. Miss Lindy Lou, she tasted his brand new confection; Mr. Mitchell called it sweet poontang. And when Miss Lindy Lou with it made good connection This is what she yelled before the gang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, it's got me going with a bang. Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; But when you give me poontang I just lose control. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Give me lots of poontang; Please don't make me plead. Can't you see you really got Just what I need? Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm wild about your sweet poontang. ---------- Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's really something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Can there be a clue here as to the origin of "poontang"? Is there a Louisiana confection called "poontang" or something close? [Yes.] Of course that doesn't have to explain the etymology; maybe this is just a double-entendre based on similarity between two already existing etymologically unrelated near-homonyms. Here's another song, supposedly a folk song, called "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", performed by Jimmie Strothers on guitar in 1936. I can't understand large parts, which are mumbled. I quote relevant excerpts from the liner notes. ---------- Poontang little and poontang small, Poontang stretches like a rubber ball. Oh my babe, took my salty thing. Gonna hang my poontang from the fence, Oh, the man come to get it ain't got no sense. Oh my babe, oh my salty thing. .... Hung my poontang from the wire, [?] comes down to put out his fire. Oh my babe, took my salty thing. Put my dress above my knees, Gonna give my poontang who I please. Oh my babe, [took] my salty thing. .... ---------- There's a lot of apparent nonsense in this song, but it's hard to picture anybody hanging his/her poontang from a wire or a fence. One can't very well hang up the sex act, nor even the sex organ. Presumably this is another double-entendre. Can one hang up some confection, by any chance? Well, yes, puddings have been hung up routinely: could "poontang" = "pudding"? Does "pudding" mean "sex"? Sure it does, or did; examples are found in Farmer and Henley etc. [I believe a closely related word persists in "pud" = "penis", which was once pronounced /pUd/ as in its ancestor "pudding" = "penis".] In the earliest printed citations, "poontang" is treated as an uncountable noun, as if a substance or commodity rather than a person or countable object. In this respect I think "poontang" is analogous to "jelly roll" (which is perhaps a little older according to the record). OED and other authorities prefer "poontang" < French "putain". DARE quotes a 1950 AS article to the effect that the origin is in Louisiana Creole. But grammatically "get some poontang" is more like "get some pudding" than like "get some prostitute". The sense is also that of "pudding" in its old sense "sex"/"f*cking" rather than exactly that of "prostitute". But what about the phonetics? The standard word for "pudding" in Louisiana Creole appears to be "poutin". Here is the entry in Valdman et al., _Dictionary of Louisiana Creole_ (1998) (p. 381): ---------- poutin n. (CA): poudin (ST); lapoutin (BT). 1. Filling for cake or pie; garniture. _Lapoutin se sa t aranje sa pou me`t an te gato._ [poutin] is what you make to put between slices of cake. (BT) 2. Dumplings; boulettes de pa^te bouillie. (BT) 3. Pudding; pudding, flan. _Poutin rezen._ Raisin pudding. (CA); _Poutin diri_ Rice pudding. (CA); _To fe en bouyi dile pou fe en poudin diri._ You make boiled milk to make rice pudding. (ST) ---------- [CA and ST and BT are regions from which material was collected. Incidentally, note the definite article attached to the word in one version; this is now part of the word apparently; this phenomenon is a feature of Creole, says the book.] I suppose this may be cognate with French "boudin" (a Louisiana favorite). Note "boudiner" = "copulate" in _Vocabula Amatoria_. Maybe it's also cognate with English "pudding"? According to the book, the pronunciation should be approximately /putE~/, by comparison to "putain" (French) /pytE~/. The "pudding" etymon is marginally preferable to the "prostitute" one phonetically, although both fail to account for the first nasal in "poontang". In summary, "poontang" < "poutin" seems to be in some respects a better conjecture than "poontang" < "putain": slightly better phonetically, better grammatically, maybe better in sense depending upon whether "pudding" or "poutin" [still] carried the meaning "sex" ca. 1900-1920. I do NOT claim that this "poutin" etymology is in any way proven or certain. The question is still open AFAIK. I do suggest that the "probably" applied in OED etc. to the "putain" etymology is unjustified and should at very least be replaced by "possibly" ... or maybe by "wag". Questions and corrections are welcome. Does HDAS have anything new to add? -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 04:46:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:46:31 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250656.1bOJuD1wg3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 9:56 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. I was impressed that the HDAS had "jump smooth." That's a new one on me, but I like the sound of it. It's something that I'd add to my active vocabulary, except that the "jump [...]" formations - and I myself - are now so old-school that I'd probably never have occasion to use it. -Wilson Gray > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. There may very well be more discussion, but don't forget that, to Americans - and especially to one who has learned "standard" American English as a second dialect - if a word is spelled with an "ahruh," that "ahruh" is meant to be pronounced. So, "motherferyer" or -fuyer, even had I noticed them, would, nevertheless, have struck me as irrelevant, unfortunately. -Wilson Gray > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 26 05:14:59 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:14:59 -0500 Subject: Tooth Mouse, tooth fairy Message-ID: From the archives of the Stumpers list (A list primarily for library personnel faced with questions they can't answer): Subject: dental doings: toothbrushes and tooth fairies admonishments for care of the mouth: `One should rise early in the morning and brush one's teeth. The tooth brush should consist of a fresh twig of a tree or scrub free from any knots, 12 fingers in length, shall correspond with the season of the year. . . . Each day one should use a tooth cleaning paste made of honey, oil, and other substances. Each tooth should be individually brushed . . . and care must be exercised not to injure the gum. . . ." Now, as for the tooth fairy, I'm sorry to be so long in replying. Dennis Lien (I believe), as usual, provided an excellent starting point, _Ethnodentistry and Dental FOlklore_ (1987) by William J. Carter, et al, there is a chapter on "shed tooth rituals" (pp. 72-82). "There are literally hundreds of adages, customs, ceremonies, and prayers that have been associated with the loss of primary teeth" (p. 72). A section on "tooth fairies" (pp. 77-82), suggests that around 1900 in France, Britain and the U.S., the tooth fairy came to replace "more traditional tooth mouse rituals." ". . . the recent history of these rituals is poorly documented for all these countries except France." Apparently in France, it's still as likely that a mouse will provide the reward as that a fairy will. "The earliest well documented American tooth fairy ritual dates from 1919, when a source from Utah said a fairy would come in the night and leave a candy bar, penny nickel, or dime for a lost tooth . . ." "The word tooth fairy probably did not become popular in the United Sates until 1949, when Lee Rogow publused a short story by this name in Collier's Magazine (124:126). The first appearance of `tooth fairy' in an encyclopedia was apparently ALan Dundes's article in the 1979 World I do not recall who first asked for the information about the tooth fairy. Whoever you are, please feel free to request this book by ILL,. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 05:17:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:17:54 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250831.1bOKYKlS3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Go get 'em, Jesse! > > Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would > have been in boldface. Is the above meant seriously or ironically? Or, perhaps, even sarcastically? I'm afraid that I've missed your point entirely. > > The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the > Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: > a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. Does he actually use "ahruhs" in his transcriptions of black speech? Ain't that a pistol?! It must make his writings as hard to read as the "Uncle Remus" stories. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by the string, "sezee." Not that I have any intention of reading the old uncle's tales, in any case. > > JL -Wilson Gray > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jul 26 09:11:53 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:11:53 +0100 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; > But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning > superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a > whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's > really > something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie Smith (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given the primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang terms 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some long-forgotten lesbian? As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", this is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome but popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, pub. 1968). Jonathon Green From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:04:40 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:04:40 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Wilson, No irony or sarcasm intended. Quite the opposite. I certainly would have defined "jump sharp" separately if the number of citations had warranted it and am most pleased to for any clarification of any entry. As for Mezzrow or, more precisely, his collaborator, Bernard Wolfe, his orthography is perfectly standard. It's his vocabulary that's remarkable. I think Gerry Cohen reprinted the entire glossary once in "Comments on Etymology." I was in college before I realized that "Brer" shd be pronounced "Bruh" (or even "Bro"?). (My comment to Jesse was simply a good-humored reaction to his lightning defense of HDAS.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Go get 'em, Jesse! > > Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would > have been in boldface. Is the above meant seriously or ironically? Or, perhaps, even sarcastically? I'm afraid that I've missed your point entirely. > > The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the > Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: > a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. Does he actually use "ahruhs" in his transcriptions of black speech? Ain't that a pistol?! It must make his writings as hard to read as the "Uncle Remus" stories. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by the string, "sezee." Not that I have any intention of reading the old uncle's tales, in any case. > > JL -Wilson Gray > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 26 13:26:47 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:26:47 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. In-Reply-To: <20040724181724.23849.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I remember distinctly (not that that's all that reliable) hearing one from teenage friends in 1987 in Louisiana, but they called it the JC Handle. And because of them - I still do. At 02:17 PM 7/24/2004, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of >the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an >emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > >The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > >holy-crap handle > >holy-shit handle > >Jesus handle > >Jesus strap > >oh-crap handle > >Oh-Jesus strap > >oh-shit handle > >shit handle > >Any comments wd be welcome. > > >JL > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:33:09 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:33:09 -0700 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) Message-ID: Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think "poontang" implies "poontang" and puns the confection. Hanging stuff on trees is just whimsy. Advanced folklorists and rugby players will recall the Scottish stanza: John Brown the factor he was there, and most surprised to see Four-and-twenty maidenheids a-hangin frae a tree. Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to me likely. Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and elsewhere, was born and raised in North Carolina. My impression is that the word was once most common in the South. Racial overtones are an occasional and not a defining feature. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; > But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning > superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a > whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's > really > something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie Smith (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given the primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang terms 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some long-forgotten lesbian? As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", this is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome but popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, pub. 1968). Jonathon Green --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:55:57 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:55:57 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Kathleen. I've found one ex. of "JC handle" - from Arizona. I shd also have mentioned "panic strap" and "panic handle." jl "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember distinctly (not that that's all that reliable) hearing one from teenage friends in 1987 in Louisiana, but they called it the JC Handle. And because of them - I still do. At 02:17 PM 7/24/2004, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of >the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an >emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > >The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > >holy-crap handle > >holy-shit handle > >Jesus handle > >Jesus strap > >oh-crap handle > >Oh-Jesus strap > >oh-shit handle > >shit handle > >Any comments wd be welcome. > > >JL > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 15:18:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:18:45 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <25FD2CD1-DEC3-11D8-B969-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >"brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >"brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >the string, "sezee." "Says he"? Just a guess. larry From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Mon Jul 26 17:27:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:27:31 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:18 AM 7/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >>It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >>understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >>Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >>"brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >>"brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >>the string, "sezee." > >"Says he"? Just a guess. > >larry And I suspect Harris was trying to approximate the Gullah quotative "say," as in "Bruh Fox answer, say ...." (common in West African creoles too). When I play the OSU Language Files tape of a Gullah woman telling the Fox and Rabbit tales, I always have to tell my students that the woman's "Bruh" [br@] is the same word they've read in Harris (or more likely heard in the movie version) as "Brer," and they're amazed, all being r-ful. "Bruh" transmutes into "Bro" today, but better Gullah would be "Bruh" or "Brudda." BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find them! What a loss. From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 18:12:38 2004 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:12:38 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: I first heard it as "Oh Jesus handle" in 1987 or 1988 in southeastern Michigan, but I also recall "oh shit handle" and I'm sure we had other variants as well. Jeff Prucher --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the > kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any > of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > > The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > > holy-crap handle > > holy-shit handle > > Jesus handle > > Jesus strap > > oh-crap handle > > Oh-Jesus strap > > oh-shit handle > > shit handle > > Any comments wd be welcome. > > > JL > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 18:38:38 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:38:38 -0400 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: Songs like Jimmie Rodgers' T for Texas contain a lot of vagrant verses. Here are the words for T for Texas: T for Texas Jimmie Rodgers E E7 A Well, 'T' for Texas, 'T' for Tennessee A E 'T' for Texas, 'T' for Tennessee B7 E 'T' for Thelma, the gal that made a wreck out of me If you don't want me mama, you sure don't have to stall If you don't want me mama, you sure don't have to stall 'Cause I can get more women than a passenger train [can haul] Well, I'm going where the water drinks like cherry wine I'm going where the water drinks like cherry wine 'Cause this Georgia water tastes like turpentine I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log Than to be here in Atlanta, [and] get treated like a dirty dog E B7 E Women make a fool out of me If you're ever down in mobile be sure to look me up If you're ever down in mobile be sure to look me up And if your ever in Atlanta tell Lucille to go to hell Women make a fool out of me You can ignore the chord changes since unless he was capoed up I frankly doubt that Jimmie Rodgers ever played anything in the key of E. To make it even more complex Jimmie Rodgers' "Last Blue Yodel" is subtitled "The Women Make a Fool Out of Me", and when I play that song I often start out with the first verse from T for Texas since they are to the same tune. I wouldn't be surprised if Blind Lemon who was from Texas used some of these verses in his songs although I cannot vouch for it since I would have to go through my incomplete Blind Lemon collection in order to find them. I will not get into all of the technical details of determining authorship of any song except to say that quite often it is very difficult to determine authorship due to the fact that often a famous singer would put his name as first author on a song when he recorded it as a quid pro quo for having recorded it. I may be wrong but I am convinced that this is what happened with Jimmie Rodgers' "When it's Peach Picking Time in Georgia" since my late fiddler friend Clayton McMichen of Gid Tanner and The Skillet Lickers and later Clayton McMichens's Georgia Wildcats who worked with Jimmie Rodgers probably wrote the song even though his name appears after Rodgers' name on the copyright. "Peach Picking Time in Georgia" in any case is probably much more original than either of the Jimmie Rodgers' "Blue Yodels" we have been discussing which contain so many vagrant verses. I will leave you with the following note. My friend Amos Garrett recently recorded a version of as song which he entitled "Michigan Water Blues" on his CD entitled "Amos Garrett Acoustic Album" which includes the cherry wine and turpentine references. He references it as "Trad. Arranged and adapted by Amos Garrett Wooly Worm Music SOCAN" This is totally appropriate since he and I played that song with different references some 43 years ago in Crawfordsville, Indiana. For some odd reason we used to sing "Crawfordsville water tastes like turpentine". Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: Re: The mouse > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Beats the shit outta me, Lar. I know it from a Blind Lemon Jefferson > recording. Actually, it's a line favored by several Texas bluesmen. But > I have no idea as to whether any of them proceeded or followed Jimmie > Rodgers. I restrict myself to the Texas-Louisiana-Mississippi axis, > with very few exceptions, just as a matter of preference. We Texans, > regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, are as > chauvinistic about our state as we're reputed to be. [Please don't > forget that Dubyuh is a native of *Connecticut* and NOT of Texas!] > > "Well, I've been to Dallas and I've been to San Antone, but there's a > place called Marshall where I'm better known." - Floyd Dixon: Marshall, > Texas, Is My Home. > > -Wilson > > On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: The mouse > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >>> Subject: Re: The mouse > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> -- > >>> -------- > >>> > >>> East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > >>> picking things up off the floor, mainly. > >>> > >>> JL > >> > >> Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for > >> Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >> > > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for > > Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it > > from someone earlier? > > > > larry > > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 18:57:42 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:57:42 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250911.1bOLAHEu3NZFlr1@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not > encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? > > JL Weirdly enough, though I did try using "slave" as meaning "ordinary job" - I gotta go to my slave v. I gotta go cut the slave - it didn't catch on and I've never heard anyone else say other than "cut the ..." The only bell that this has ever rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use of some edged instrument. "Cut out" = "leave" isn't relevant. "Cut the slave" is simply "work at an ordinary job" and nothing else. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and > "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression > heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black > Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I > first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get > dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which > has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard > "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon > thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. > > "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of > "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. > > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." > > "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jul 26 19:59:23 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:59:23 -0500 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: > The only bell that this has ever > rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." > But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, > implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut > it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use > of some edged instrument. > > Any relationship to "cutting heads"; two guitarists facing off in competition? From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 20:02:37 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:02:37 -0400 Subject: pseodonyms Message-ID: Two of the most important country singers in the past 100 years used the names of two different towns for their stage names. Harold Lloyd Jenkins used the name Conway Twitty as his pseudonym and renamed himself after Conway, Arkansas and Twitty, Texas though he was born in Missouri. Vernon Dalhart, one of his many pseudonyms, was born Marion Try Slaughter got his most famous pseudonym from the towns of Vernon and Dalhart both in Texas. Does anyone out there know of any other singer who has done this? Page Stephens From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 26 20:17:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:17:37 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing In-Reply-To: <20040726135557.9912.qmail@web61303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." First, is it legal? ;-) Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. Thanks. Kathleen E. Miller Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 20:20:54 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:54 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040726161116.023e44d8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen E. Miller said: >In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across >several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > >First, is it legal? ;-) >Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. The first outdoor sports thing that comes to mind is from rock climbing. A friend of mine does a lot of climbing in the 'gunks (Shawangunks) outside of New Paltz, NY. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Mon Jul 26 20:25:53 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:25:53 -0500 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 In-Reply-To: <200407262009.i6QK9SLD018029@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: I found this: "Gunkholing can be simply described as a meandering voyage through the sloughs and rivers of the San Francisco Bay/Sacramento River Delta." at http://www.stella67.com/gunk/gunk.html, presumably going back to 1995. I guess it refers to exploring holes of gunk...:-) Rachel Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Gunkholing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across > several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > > First, is it legal? ;-) > Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. > > Thanks. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 21:06:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: This is new to me Message-ID: Just heard on today's local news in Boston: Roadhorse: "a sawhorse used as a roadblock" Never heard it before. Hope I'm not the only one who's not familiar with it. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 22:39:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:39:17 -0700 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: Check Webster's 3rd. I think it means fishing in secluded coves, inlets, and similar coastal areas. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Re: Gunkholing ?1995 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found this: "Gunkholing can be simply described as a meandering voyage through the sloughs and rivers of the San Francisco Bay/Sacramento River Delta." at http://www.stella67.com/gunk/gunk.html, presumably going back to 1995. I guess it refers to exploring holes of gunk...:-) Rachel Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Gunkholing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across > several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > > First, is it legal? ;-) > Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. > > Thanks. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 22:46:59 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:59 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Jeff. Surely all these names didn't arise in the '80s??? (When necessary, I've always referred to it as "you know, that strap you can hang clothes on.") JL Jeff Prucher wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jeff Prucher Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I first heard it as "Oh Jesus handle" in 1987 or 1988 in southeastern Michigan, but I also recall "oh shit handle" and I'm sure we had other variants as well. Jeff Prucher --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the > kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any > of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > > The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > > holy-crap handle > > holy-shit handle > > Jesus handle > > Jesus strap > > oh-crap handle > > Oh-Jesus strap > > oh-shit handle > > shit handle > > Any comments wd be welcome. > > > JL > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 23:08:50 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on German "sprechen" speak. "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and plural, plus collective and individuative. Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said German would always respond positively, thinking that we were addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most beautiful in Europe." -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 23:13:18 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:13:18 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Doug, I never thought of the rough phonetic similarity between "come the (old soldier)" and "cut the (fool)." It may be entirely coincidental, but "come the" had early 19th C. currency in the US and may have mutated into (and been replaced by, where it survived) by "cut the." It is hard to imagine any evidence that would settle this one way or the other. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act like/as the X"? E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play possum". And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: "cut the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to show some examples. Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and "play" can? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 26 23:16:57 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:16:57 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: Well, www.gunkhole.org says that gunkhole as a noun means "a small, sheltered cove for anchoring small watercraft" and as an intransitive verb means "to make a series of short pleasure trips by boat, as from island to island." There was a 1984 book by Al and Jo B. Cummings called Gunkholing in the San Juans, but I bet the term goes back earlier than that. I had never heard it before. John Baker From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 23:20:21 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:21 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had been reduced to "rads." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on German "sprechen" speak. "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and plural, plus collective and individuative. Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said German would always respond positively, thinking that we were addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most beautiful in Europe." -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 23:29:55 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:29:55 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261259.1bPbDo1mF3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> The only bell that this has ever >> rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." >> But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, >> implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut >> it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use >> of some edged instrument. >> >> > > Any relationship to "cutting heads"; two guitarists facing off in > competition? > I don't think so, though I've heard "cutting" used alone in a music context: a new band member attempting to demonstrate his chops and the talent that he brings to the unit by challenging an established band/group member or section to a "cutting" contest. Jean-Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet is perhaps the most famous case. He played the alto sax. But Lionel Hampton refused to hire him, since he needed a tenor man. To get the job, Jacquet switched to the tenor on the spot and played first tenor when the band recorded "Flyin' Home." Jacquet improvised a solo that cut his competition for first tenor and, in fact, established him as the king of the so-called "Texas Honker" school of tenor-sax playing. -Wilson Gray From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 26 23:33:22 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:33:22 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: I was right to think the term could be taken back earlier. From a 6/22/56 article by Peggy Reynolds in the Washington Post: "Lt. Col. Dickinson, and Club's cruisemaster, intends to go gunkholing in the Potomac and Chesapeake Bay for a week's duration, in his 21-foot Lone Star outboard cruiser." The same writer used the noun in an 11/25/56 article entitled "Every Sailor Seeks a Gunkhole." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Baker, John Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 7:17 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Gunkholing ?1995 Well, www.gunkhole.org says that gunkhole as a noun means "a small, sheltered cove for anchoring small watercraft" and as an intransitive verb means "to make a series of short pleasure trips by boat, as from island to island." There was a 1984 book by Al and Jo B. Cummings called Gunkholing in the San Juans, but I bet the term goes back earlier than that. I had never heard it before. John Baker From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 27 01:26:45 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:26:45 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: <20040726133309.94106.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Responding to Jonathon Green and Jonathan Lighter: >Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think "poontang" >implies "poontang" and puns the confection. But puns what word? "Pudding" is too different IMHO. The Creole word "poutin" seems to be virtually nonexistent in English: I can't find it anywhere, even on the Web. If this song has a pun on "poutin" it indicates some currency of the word "poutin" in circles where "poontang" was also known, which makes "poutin" more attractive as a candidate etymon. Perhaps Barry Popik can make some statement about "poutin" (NOT Quebecois "poutine"!). I admit however that it is also quite possible that there is no real double-entendre in the word "poontang" here, rather that the confection was just an imaginary one named "poontang", just an excuse to play with the 'dirty' word. [There apparently was a much later pop song with "poontang" in which it was given a bogus gloss ("poon means a hug, tang means a kiss" or something like that) ... http://www.roctober.com/roctober/greatness/treniers.html ....] But in this case is it significant that the imaginary sweet was of Louisiana origin? Anyway, I've made the lyrics available, and I think they're interesting. These are the only early song examples of "poontang" which I've found; if anybody has any more please let me know. >Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without >specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to me >likely. I agree and I believe the usual early meaning was "sex"/"copulation" and not "vagina" (a fine and unprovable distinction, I suppose, in many cases). >Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and elsewhere, >was born and raised in North Carolina. Asheville was apparently the model for the fictional setting ... not Creole country exactly. I didn't know of the Creole word "poutin" until last week. Ignoring the two songs I quoted, which I admit are possibly entirely irrelevant, "poutin" is a pretty good candidate etymon on its own merits IMHO ... IF one assumes a Louisiana French/Creole origin. The usual alternative speculation, I believe, is US military origin, which permits at least two obvious candidates (French, Tagalog) IMHO, as I said before. There are still other possibilities, perhaps including the true one which nobody has guessed. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 02:33:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:33:23 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261613.1bPeER4zc3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Doug, > > I never thought of the rough phonetic similarity between "come the > (old soldier)" and "cut the (fool)." > > It may be entirely coincidental, but "come the" had early 19th C. > currency in the US and may have mutated into (and been replaced by, > where it survived) by "cut the." > > It is hard to imagine any evidence that would settle this one way or > the other. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >> encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? > > Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act > like/as the X"? > > E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play > possum". > > And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: > "cut > the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to > show > some examples. FWIW, I, too, find something familiar about "cut the fool" = "play the fool," but as something that I may have read somewhere, not as something that I've heard spoken. In any case, though, "cut the slave" means merely "to work at any kind of ordinary, square, day job," with no implication that the person is in any sense acting as a slave. Both a janitor and a CEO cut the slave. -Wilson Gray > > Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and > "play" > can? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 03:37:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:37:44 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261042.1bP9ug1R63NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 1:27 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 11:18 AM 7/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >>> understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >>> Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >>> "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >>> "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented >>> by >>> the string, "sezee." >> >> "Says he"? Just a guess. >> >> larry > > And I suspect Harris was trying to approximate the Gullah quotative > "say," > as in "Bruh Fox answer, say ...." (common in West African creoles > too). When I play the OSU Language Files tape of a Gullah woman > telling > the Fox and Rabbit tales, I always have to tell my students that the > woman's "Bruh" [br@] is the same word they've read in Harris (or more > likely heard in the movie version) as "Brer," and they're amazed, all > being > r-ful. "Bruh" transmutes into "Bro" today, but better Gullah would > be"Bruh" or "Brudda." Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided as "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! -Wilson Gray > > BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had them > for > years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked for a > replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the > World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find > them! What a loss. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 04:26:12 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:26:12 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407260818.1bP7fz6KD3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in that signature Jafro? -Wilson On Jul 26, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >> understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >> Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >> "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >> "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >> the string, "sezee." > > "Says he"? Just a guess. > > larry > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 04:30:27 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:30:27 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: <200407260633.1bP5Br4NQ3NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think > "poontang" implies "poontang" and puns the confection. > > Hanging stuff on trees is just whimsy. Advanced folklorists and rugby > players will recall the Scottish stanza: > > John Brown the factor he was there, and most > surprised to see > Four-and-twenty maidenheids a-hangin frae a tree. > > Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without > specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to > me likely. > > Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and > elsewhere, was born and raised in North Carolina. > > My impression is that the word was once most common in the South. > Racial overtones are an occasional and not a defining feature. > > JL Depends on whose ox is being gored, I guess. -Wilson Gray > > > Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; >> But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > >> Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning >> superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a >> whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's >> really >> something" but it may be a double-entendre too. > > Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a > 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie > Smith > (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan > ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given > the > primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual > about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The > whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang > terms > 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female > attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. > This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the > song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some > long-forgotten lesbian? > > As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", > this > is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the > vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As > for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome > but > popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly > misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, > pub. > 1968). > > Jonathon Green > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 27 04:38:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:38:12 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. In-Reply-To: <20040727040125.46B4822870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't remember where I heard it. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 27 04:48:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:48:23 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <20040727040125.46B4822870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >>> "Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided as "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! <<< I had to go over that paragraph a couple of times to parse it, finding my way around the inversion, but it was worth it. Sir, that was a fun read! -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 06:14:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407261620.1bPeLG2NY3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the pride and joy with they served side by side with their white brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. -Wilson Gray On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have > heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans > are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had > been reduced to "rads." > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the > sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein > "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. > > "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide > someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell > someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the > latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on > German "sprechen" speak. > > "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as > in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, > Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as > a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the > essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like > "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and > plural, plus collective and individuative. > > Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw > Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous > personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem > was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by > Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street > tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of > anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if > he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to > be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a > German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise > white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would > want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. > Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with > Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African > descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all > directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And > returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn > away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his > children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal > in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town > plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" > > Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't > realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to > address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said > German would always respond positively, thinking that we were > addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white > GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. > > "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way > syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, > "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most > beautiful in Europe." > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 11:58:37 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:58:37 -0700 Subject: O.K & Booze Message-ID: FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the 1840 race for the White House! "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van Buren!!! "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled whiskey bottle to prove it!!! Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 13:02:28 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:02:28 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Mark. That's a new one. The first of these that I encountered was "shit handle," in 2000. My source, an emeritus professor, assured me he had heard it during WWII. I have no confirmatory evidence that any of these terms was in use so early as that, but as Dayton Allen used to say, "WHHHHHHYYYYY NOT?" JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't remember where I heard it. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 13:16:22 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:16:22 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany -- or was it? The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another stereotypical reinforcement. You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have been written by black GI's. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the pride and joy with they served side by side with their white brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. -Wilson Gray On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have > heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans > are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had > been reduced to "rads." > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the > sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein > "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. > > "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide > someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell > someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the > latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on > German "sprechen" speak. > > "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as > in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, > Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as > a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the > essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like > "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and > plural, plus collective and individuative. > > Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw > Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous > personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem > was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by > Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street > tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of > anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if > he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to > be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a > German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise > white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would > want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. > Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with > Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African > descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all > directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And > returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn > away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his > children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal > in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town > plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" > > Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't > realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to > address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said > German would always respond positively, thinking that we were > addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white > GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. > > "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way > syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, > "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most > beautiful in Europe." > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 13:53:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:53:14 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: For the life of me I cannot remember anyone calling the damned things anything at all. This is perhaps due to the fact that in my youth my father could only afford to drive Plymouths, and you only found these straps on higher priced cars. I do remember a reference to them in one of Rex Stout's Nero Wolf novels in which Wolf held onto one for dear life since he was mortally afraid of any form of machinery and was convinced that every automobile was about to crash. If anyone has the energy to read the entire series of Nero Wolf novels -- a delightful experience -- they might be able to date this reference. Page "too poor to afford a car with a strap" Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Thanks, Mark. That's a new one. > > The first of these that I encountered was "shit handle," in 2000. My source, an emeritus professor, assured me he had heard it during WWII. > > I have no confirmatory evidence that any of these terms was in use so early as that, but as Dayton Allen used to say, "WHHHHHHYYYYY NOT?" > > JL > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't > remember where I heard it. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 13:56:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:56:14 -0400 Subject: O.K & Booze Message-ID: Out of curiosity has anyone on this list investigated the first use of "fair and balanced"? Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: O.K & Booze > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: O.K & Booze > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! > > Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the 1840 race for the White House! > > > "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van Buren!!! > > "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled whiskey bottle to prove it!!! > > Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 27 14:15:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:15:02 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <1775FB5D-DF85-11D8-AAB3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 12:26 AM -0400 7/27/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in >that signature Jafro? > Hi, Wilson, I was doing so for a long time, although in a shorter version. Unfortunately when my hair came back after chemo a little while ago it came back less curly. Well, better wavy than dead. L From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 27 15:09:01 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:09:01 EDT Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase "panic hardware" anywhere else. - James A. Landau From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 15:48:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:48:02 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: The first time I ever saw a seat belt which eventually replaced the strap was back in the 1950s when Allan Metcalf and my cousin Ben Stephens had one installed one in his car after a friend of his had died after being thrown out of his car in an accident. Ben as I recall had to go to a military surplus store in order to buy a military surplus airplane seat belt and having some mechanic put it in for him by drilling holes into the body of his car. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab > handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If > we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". > > OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily > in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US > Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase > "panic hardware" anywhere else. > > - James A. Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 16:00:38 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:00:38 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, James. A "panic handle" in very recent use is an emergency release handle that will allow escape from, say, an overturned school bus. This seems to me to be a colloquial or standard expression. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase "panic hardware" anywhere else. - James A. Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 27 17:40:52 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040726131614.021cabb8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ...BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had > them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked > for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the > World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find > them! What a loss. sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. when i left ohio state (physically; i still have an emeritus appointment there) in 1998, rather than truck this stuff across the country, i donated to the department library my complete set of Intro to Language materials, going back to the early '70s (collections of loose-leaf files, hence the name "Language Files") and including copies of all the editions (including a preliminary one) of LF. not long after, the department library was disbanded (to make more space), and its contents were given to the OSU main library, which discarded material it had no use for. obviously it had no use for outdated editions of a book it already had several copies of. i tried to get someone to save the LF stuff and ship it back to me (at my expense), but apparently my appeal came too late. so now i have none of it, except the two most recent editions. no tapes. and a piece of the historical record is lost. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who started the whole thing 30+ years ago From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 27 16:09:29 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:09:29 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Wilson Gray >They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of > the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a > term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As a white GI, same place, same time, we often referred to the US as "the World." Also "the land of the round doorknobs." D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 27 18:06:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:06:31 -0400 Subject: Language Files In-Reply-To: <1B18DDFD-DFF4-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later ones; my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the audiotapes soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish (maybe I should send Brian a set too!). Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've become too discursive and less workbookish. Even Brian says the students find them dryasdust. We use Fromkin, Rodman, & Hyams, with exercises from LF plus our own made-up ones. This fall though, I'm switching in my own section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you part of that project? Any thoughts on it? And finally, thanks for the heads-up on storing materials in the library. Since I face this a year from now, I'll have to be realistic about how much they can reasonably take, I guess. At 10:40 AM 7/27/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Jul 26, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>...BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had >>them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked >>for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the >>World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find >>them! What a loss. > >sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a >cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; >there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, >etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a >new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get >lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. > >when i left ohio state (physically; i still have an emeritus >appointment there) in 1998, rather than truck this stuff across the >country, i donated to the department library my complete set of Intro >to Language materials, going back to the early '70s (collections of >loose-leaf files, hence the name "Language Files") and including copies >of all the editions (including a preliminary one) of LF. not long >after, the department library was disbanded (to make more space), and >its contents were given to the OSU main library, which discarded >material it had no use for. obviously it had no use for outdated >editions of a book it already had several copies of. i tried to get >someone to save the LF stuff and ship it back to me (at my expense), >but apparently my appeal came too late. > >so now i have none of it, except the two most recent editions. no >tapes. and a piece of the historical record is lost. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who started the whole thing 30+ >years ago From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 27 18:39:05 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:39:05 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <1B18DDFD-DFF4-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a >cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; >there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, >etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a >new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get >lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. D***! I will be teaching from the 9th edition Spring 2004, and I would love to have the tapes. ANY of the tapes. Bethany From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 18:41:14 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:41:14 -0400 Subject: O.K & Booze In-Reply-To: <200407270458.1bPqBu3PJ3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 7:58 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: O.K & Booze > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! > > Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to > announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the > 1840 race for the White House! > > > "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van > Buren!!! > > "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who > sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled > whiskey bottle to prove it!!! > > Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! > > JL Thanks for my first laugh of the day! -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 28 01:05:20 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:05:20 EDT Subject: Lawfare (1975) Message-ID: Today was a brutal day in the room with no air. I'll try to stay awake to find the keys. GICLEE--I didn't type the full WALL STREET JOURNAL article. Someone asked about this on Google Answers. LAWFARE--For the lawyers here. 27 July 2004, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pf. A17, col. 2: _Evidence That"Lawfare"_ _Was First Used in 1975_ In regard to Jeremy Rabkin's July 13 editorial-page essay on the "new" term "lawgare": Brig. Gen. Charles Dunlap (staff judge advocate, Headquarters Air COmbat Command, USAF) ahs written and spoken extensively on the topic of lawfare ifer the oast three years. A working paper by Gen.Dunlap, "Law and Military Interventions: Preserveing Humanitarian Values in 21st Century Conflicts," was presented at the Carr Center for Human RIghts Policy in 2001. That paper used the term lawfare and descrbed its impact on the ability of the U,S, to conduct effective military interventions. According to Gen. Dunlap's paper, the first use of the term lawfare appears to be in a manuscript "The Way Out--Readical Alternatives in Australia," by John Carlson and Neville Yeoumams from 1975. Carl Rhodes, Ph. D. Associate Director Aerospace Force Development Prgrams Project AIR FORCE RAND Corporation Santa Monica, Calif. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jul 28 01:24:29 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin J Barrett) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:24:29 -0700 Subject: tori kara Message-ID: Last night, I saw tori kara on the menu at the Deluxe Bar and Grill in Seattle. Although I found a couple of instances of tori (Japanese for chicken/bird) in the archive, there were none for tori kara, torikara or karaage. I assume tori kara comes from tori-no karaage. Like the listing at seattlepi.nwsource.com/food/18434_eat13.shtml (tori-kara), this tori kara had a sauce that came with it, not necessarily the case in Japan. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 03:18:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:18:59 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407262148.1bPjT6pQ3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:48 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray writes: > >>>> > "Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided > as > "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" > and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, > literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my > primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a > second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! > <<< > > I had to go over that paragraph a couple of times to parse it, finding > my > way around the inversion, but it was worth it. Sir, that was a fun > read! > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > Thank you for the compliment! I love doing that kind of thing. Wish I was good enough at it to get paid for it! -Wilson Gray From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 28 04:56:29 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:56:29 -0400 Subject: Giclee In-Reply-To: <20040728040338.E28B02287A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry writes: >>> GICLEE--I didn't type the full WALL STREET JOURNAL article. Someone asked about this on Google Answers. <<< I was introduced to this term fairly recently, within the last year I guess, by my wife's cousin, who is a professional artist. She is very pleased with the technology, which allows her to produce and sell extremely high-quality copies of her paintings at good prices. She pronounces it as French: [3i'kle], or roughly "zhee-CLAY", which I assume is correct. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 06:22:33 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:22:33 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407270616.1bPrOK3Qk3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. > > Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first > reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. > > Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany > -- or was it? No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the Security Agency as an Animal. > The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught > a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I > assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was > eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a > sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another > stereotypical reinforcement. I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse Now far more palatable. Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted that battle scene in this way. > > You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have > been written by black GI's. I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany > ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the > bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed > to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the > second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And > we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, > predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops > did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as > in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, > if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not > something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black > troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I > said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans > referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it > became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, > the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and > the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the > Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling > "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term > among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, > "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". > > At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single > reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was > an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the > control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black > officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When > you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the > pride and joy with they served side by side with their white > brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you > see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers > that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war > movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown > cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are > forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >> been reduced to "rads." >> >> JL >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >> >> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >> tell >> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >> German "sprechen" speak. >> >> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as >> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as >> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like >> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >> plural, plus collective and individuative. >> >> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem >> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >> by >> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of >> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >> to >> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. >> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >> turn >> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal >> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >> >> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >> didn't >> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white >> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >> >> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >> beautiful in Europe." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 28 17:12:11 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:12:11 EDT Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: In a message dated Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400, Wilson Gray writes inter alia: > the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War In 1970 or 1971 I checked out a book from the library of Fort Myer, Virginia. Stamped inside the front cover was the notice "For the use of colored troops at Fort Sill". The book was "Paul Revere and the World He Lived In" by Esther Forbes, which had a first hardcover edition of 1942, so it appears that the expression "colored troops" (I don't remember if it were capitalized) was still in official use, at least by Army librarians, during World War II. (I remember this notice due to the irony of juxtaposing the iconic Paul Revere with segregated libraries.) > Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" among other things is an official position, the chief administrative officer of a unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position is too busy with paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an "aide" however vary from general to general and frequently involves being a manservant. (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide and a chief of staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) - James A. Landau From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 17:43:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:28 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407270715.1bPsJt7as3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 10:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:26 AM -0400 7/27/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in >> that signature Jafro? >> > > Hi, Wilson, > > I was doing so for a long time, although in a shorter version. > Unfortunately when my hair came back after chemo a little while ago > it came back less curly. Well, better wavy than dead. > > L > Congrats on the comeback, in every sense of the word! My wife is a breast-cancer survivor and my brother completed two months of hopefully-successful radiation therapy for prostate cancer just last week. He said that a major side-effect forced him to give up public transportation and go back to driving. He now feels at one with the women in those "Gotta go! Gotta go! Gotta go right now!" TV ads. On the plus side, he was already bald before the therapy.;-) -Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 19:45:43 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:43 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: Given my reference in an earlier post to the assertion that "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit," naturally, I'm beginning this "war story" (in the punning sense to be explained below) in the correct manner. This is no shit. I'm sitting in the Star-Club, my favorite watering hole in Baumholder, Germany, when a bruthuh sojuh comes in with Frawline, his girl friend, and her parents, Cumrad and Fraw. Fraw smokes the set over and exclaims, "Ach, so! Dies ist ein Ami-Bar [?aahmi-baah = GI bar]!" And my bruthuh replies, "Yah, yah! Dis is a Army bar [?aahmih baah]!" The United States Colored Troops, in those days, at least (late '50's-early '60's) referred to the Army as the "War." As a consequence, any story that I tell about my life in the Army is, by definition, a "War story," hence the punning sense. I read somewhere or other that "put on the War suit" = join or be drafted into the Army, dates to WWII, but it - War suit - wasn't used for "uniform" in my day. For any youngsters in the audience, "Ami" is?/was a mildly-insulting, German slang term for "G.I." As I've said here before, women don't understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't nary nobody oblected!) That's why it was Fraw who used "Ami" in a bar full of G.I.'s. Cumrad would have known better. -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 28 20:49:06 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:49:06 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Congrats on the comeback, in every sense of the word! My wife is a >breast-cancer survivor Not much fun, but being a survivor is always better than the alternative. >and my brother completed two months of >hopefully-successful radiation therapy for prostate cancer just last >week. He said that a major side-effect forced him to give up public >transportation and go back to driving. He now feels at one with the >women in those "Gotta go! Gotta go! Gotta go right now!" TV ads. On the >plus side, he was already bald before the therapy.;-) Well, the hair does grow back, albeit either less or more curly (and, I understand, sometimes a different color, although that didn't happen with me). I'd just as soon skip the (Southern-end) side effects of prostate surgery/radiation, from what I've heard about it, but in the end it may not be my call, if my remission lasts long enough for such issues to develop. In my case, the cancer was/is non-Hodgkins lymphoma, a particularly aggressive variety called mantle cell. No symptoms from the disease (which turned up during a routine colonoscopy), but the chemo wasn't much fun... Larry From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 22:45:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:45:52 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407271054.1bPwa04nA3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Duane Campbell wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Duane Campbell > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Wilson Gray > >> They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a >> term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As a white GI, same place, same time, we often referred to the US as > "the > World." Also "the land of the round doorknobs." I'm not surprised, given that your unit was one-third soul. I never heard the doorknob one, but I do remember the time that one of our guys paid five bucks for one of those faceted, imitation-crystal doorknobs that another GI had had his mother send him from home. And that was really big bucks, at a time when you could buy a Rolex in Los Angeles for about $125.00. -Wilson > > D > > I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 01:28:18 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:28:18 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at Indiana U. now.) Old saying (circa 1968): "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, this is no shit...'. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. > > Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first > reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. > > Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany > -- or was it? No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the Security Agency as an Animal. > The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught > a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I > assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was > eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a > sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another > stereotypical reinforcement. I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse Now far more palatable. Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted that battle scene in this way. > > You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have > been written by black GI's. I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany > ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the > bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed > to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the > second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And > we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, > predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops > did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as > in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, > if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not > something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black > troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I > said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans > referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it > became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, > the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and > the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the > Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling > "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term > among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, > "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". > > At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single > reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was > an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the > control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black > officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When > you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the > pride and joy with they served side by side with their white > brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you > see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers > that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war > movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown > cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are > forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >> been reduced to "rads." >> >> JL >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >> >> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >> tell >> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >> German "sprechen" speak. >> >> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as >> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as >> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like >> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >> plural, plus collective and individuative. >> >> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem >> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >> by >> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of >> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >> to >> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. >> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >> turn >> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal >> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >> >> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >> didn't >> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white >> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >> >> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >> beautiful in Europe." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 01:33:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:18 EDT Subject: Wackadoos and Hate-triots Message-ID: WACKADOOS--496 Google hits, 96 Google Groups hits HATE-TRIOT--14 Google hits, 14 Google Groups hits HATE-TRIOTS--8 Google hits, 42 Google Groups hits I don't know the future HDAS coverage for "wackadoos." It's not in Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. >From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 28 July 2004, pg. 27, col. 1: _Left wing flaps on_ _Wackadoos are still dear to Dems' hearts_ MICHAEL GOODWIN in Boston (Mgoodwin at edit.nydailynews.com) (...) "They're not patriots," he (Michael Moore-ed.) said of those who disagree with him and his new movie. "They're hate-triots." Ha-ha, very clever. (GOOGLE) GO P.com :: Democrat Wackadoos ... Friday, May 28, 2004 Democrat Wackadoos. Something to Yak About – Democrat Wackadoos Saying that John Kerry’s advisers ... www.rnc.org/news/read.aspx?ID=4249 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: FSU-Miami (one more opinion) ... in common: they both despise the Chicken Littles of U-Florida and ND, the two most rabid, froth-at- the-mouth collections of *wackadoos* ( :-) in college ... rec.sport.football.college - Oct 1, 1992 by Robert Jones - View Thread (17 articles) (GOOGLE) BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion - Michael ... ... sure why I'm wasting my time countering an irrelevent post, but I wrote this last night: I just read an article that used a new term, "hate-triot", that really ... www.bladeforums.com/forums/ showthread.php?t=304379&page=1 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages Michael Moore Rocks the Convention ... Yes, he does call conservatives "hate-triots." Yes, he does say that Republicans wake up every day "at 6:00 in the morning" so they can "figure out which ... alt.politics.bush - Jul 28, 2004 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Majority of Americans believe Bush Exagerated ... The bottom line is, for this "hate-triot" at least, there was enough evidence to take Saddam out to begin with. It wasn't necessary to build a better case. ... alt.impeach.bush - Jul 8, 2003 by bSirius - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Vive Italy!!!! Re: Berlusconi is a clown and doesn't ... ... I do not like or dislike her, but I would vote for her just to enjoy the screaming apoplectic reaction of the fascist hate-triots like Sean Hannity... soc.culture.german - Jul 7, 2003 by Paolo Pizzi - View Thread (171 articles) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 02:28:17 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:17 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20mmmkay=3F=20and=20i?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ts=20kin?= Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ...  i had noticed it years >> before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't >> realized that it was a specifically american thing. >i believe that this is one case where we can't blame canada. >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) One recent print example: How To Meet Cute Boys by Deanna Kizis (Hardcover - October 2003) • Excerpt from page 80 "... at me. "Why don't I just give you the quotes, mkay?" I was so flattered by her attention, I threw journalistic ..." From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jul 29 04:38:06 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:38:06 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Black generals > > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > > Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" among > other things is an official position, the chief administrative > officer of a > unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position > is too busy with > paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an "aide" > however vary from general to general and frequently involves > being a manservant. > (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide > and a chief of > staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) A general would not be an aide de camp to another general. Aides are typically up-and-coming junior officers. Nor would I describe an aide as a "manservant." In the 18th and 19th centuries, aides would be the ones to carry the general's orders to various subordinate commanders on the battlefield. As such, they would have to understand, interpret, and explain the general's orders and intent. In the 20th century, an aide would be more accurately described as "executive assistant." On occasion they might make coffee, but they are not valets. Aides are selected because they are bright, young officers with a future who are given a chance to witness and learn the high-level military decision-making process. The manservant role would be filled by an "orderly," an enlisted man who takes care of the general's personal needs, shines his boots, brings him meals, etc. Generals in the US Army no longer have orderlies, although they do have drivers who may take on some of the traditional duties of the orderly when not behind the wheel. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 05:22:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:22:52 EDT Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) Message-ID: The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization has been stuck on 1964 for weeks now. One of the things that I'm waiting for (aside from the California roll, granola, and trail mix) is "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford." I'll provide some other posts for it. A recent book on American desserts insists that this is from the late 1960s, but that sounds too early. ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS by Judith M. Fertig Boston: Harvard Common Press 2003 Pg. 402: _The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford_ The year was 1966. (...) Robert Redford was about to become a Hollywood heartthrob by starring in _Barefoot in the Park_ with Jane Fonda. General Foods Corporation launched Cool Whip nondairy whipped topping. Almost immediately, American cooks, freed from the not-so-arduous task of whipping real cream, became almost giddy with this sense of dessert freedom--and with the smooth, creamy taste of this nondairy whipped topping. Desserts with improbable names like "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford" or "Can't Leave it Alone"--the two I have in my recipe collection--were hastily written down on recipe cards. 1966 seems too early, based on the below...I've never eaten Robert Redford, but I've eaten Paul Newman. 1 September 1982, POST STANDARD (Syracuse, NY), pg. D-7, col. 1: By BETSY BALSLEY The Los Angeles Times (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Some of these recipes have decidedly provocative names. Who, for instance, could resist trying a dessert called The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford or a cake entitled Better Than Sex? Here are a few of the recipes that have found a home in my personal recipe file during the last year: _THE NEXT BEST THING_ _TO ROBERT REDFORD_ 1 cup flour 1 to 2 cups butter or margarine, softened 1 cup finely-chopped pecans 1 (8-ounce) package of cream cheese, softened 1 cup sugar 1 (8-ounce) carton of frozen non-dairy whipped topping, thawed 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant vanilla pudding mix 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant chocolate pudding mix 3 cups cold milk Grated chocolate candy bar, optional Prepare bottom crust by mixing together flour, butter and pecans until crumblike. Press mixture into (Col. 3-ed.) greased 13-by-9-inch baking pan. Bake at 350 degrees 15 to 20 minutes until lightly golden. Cool. Beat cream cheese with sugar until smooth. Fold in half of whipped topping. Spread mixture over cooled crust. COmbine vanilla and chocolate pudding mixes. Beat in milk until smooth and thickened. Spread over cream cheese layer. Spread remaining whipped topping over top. Sprinkle with grated chocolate candy bar, if desired. Cover and refrigerate overnight. Makes 16 servings. The origin of this cake is in doubt. The recipe has been passed from food editor to food editor all around the country. However, it does seem likely that it had its beginnings somewhere along the eastern seaboard where, according to Helen Moore, food editor of the Charlotte (N.C.) Observer, "people like sweet and gooey desserts." _BETTER THAN SEX CAKE_ 1 (18 1/2-ounce) package of yellow cake mix 1 (1-pound, 4-ounce) can of crushed pineapple 1 cup of sugar 1 (6-ounce) package of vanilla pudding mix 1 cup whipping cream, whipped and sweetened COconut, lightly toasted Prepare cake in 13-by-9-inch baking pan and bake according to package directions. Combine crushed pineapple and sugar in saucepan and bring to boil. Cool slightly. When baked cake has cooled, poke holes in it with fork. Pour pineapple mixture over it. Prepare pudding mix according to package directions. Cool. Spread prepared pudding over top. Chill. Just before serving, cover with sweetened whipped cream and sprinkle with coconut. If desired, garnish with pineapple slices. Makes 12 to 16 servings. 24 August 1982, Syracuse (NY) HERALD-JOURNAL, pg. D-12, col. 5: Several readers responded to Jane Eckley's request for Robert Redford pie. Here is one version from Mrs. Mary Falcone, who says she uses a cake instead of pie dish. Mrs. Falcone called the recipe "the next best thing to Robert Redford." _ROBERT REDFORD PIE_ Crust: 1 cup flour 1/2 cup margarine 1 cup chopped walnuts Combine and press into bottom of 9x133 cake pan. Bake 20 minutes at 350 degrees. Cool. Mix: 8-ounce package cream cheese 1 cup non-dairy whipped topping 1 cup powdered sugar Spread over cooled crust. In a large bowl combine and stir until thick: 1 box instant chocolate pudding 1 box instant vanilla pudding 2 cups milk Stir until thick. Pour over first 2 layers (crust and cream cheese mixture). Cover with additional whipped toppin. If desired, grate small chocolate bar over top for garnish. WIll keep covered up to 2 weeks in refrigerator or may be frozen. OT: WHERE IN THE WORLD IS BARRY POPIK?--New York CIty WHAT DID BARRY POPIK HAVE FOR DINNER?--Afghan cuisine, at Pamir on Second Avenue and East 75th Street. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 05:26:10 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:26:10 -0700 Subject: another coordination example Message-ID: here's another intriguing coordination example, from Randy Jensen, "City looks to keep car dealers”, Palo Alto Daily News 7/28/04, p. 2: ------ The concessions from the dealerships are an effort to help maintain a sales tax base that has recently been rocked by the potential loss of the Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development. ------ ok, let's take this apart. the crucial part is the relative clause: with its head -- (1) "Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development". the relative clause itself can be paraphrased as (2) "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development." now, (2) is a pretty ordinary example of Gapping: "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." a coordination of two clauses, the second of which is missing (part of) its verbal piece. so how do we get the relative clause? by "extraction" of the NP "Hyatt Rickeys" from one of the two clauses of (2) (the first). (excuse the transformational terminology.) but this is a violation of the Coordinate Structure Constraint (from Ross's 1968 dissertation). some might think this was an insuperable problem. but i don't find (1) at all bad. (see my Language Log posting at http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001266.html for some other conflicts between theory and (my) judgments.) what (1) feels like to me is some other well-known apparent counterexamples to the CSC, like (3) "I'll give you some things that I rushed downtown and bought". (not Gapping, but a more ordinary type of reduced coordination.) the usual observation about (3) is that what makes it ok is the unity of the event denoted by "I rushed downtown and bought [some things]." and that kind of unity is there, i think, in "Hyatt Rickey's will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. but (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jul 29 09:41:59 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:41:59 +0100 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As I've said here before, women don't > understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't > nary nobody oblected!) In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as Connie Eble, Edith Folb (black slang by the way), and Julie Chapman (currently writing a multi-volume history of slang dictionaries), and the peerless slang bibliophile sans pareil Madeleine Kripke, my partner Susan Ford works with me day in day out on my slang researches. I believe she may even understand what she's doing. Jonathon Green From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 12:58:26 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:58:26 -0400 Subject: dog robber Message-ID: DOG ROBBER : any AIDE or REMF; so-called for their practice of taking from the field soldier to provide for the commander and staff [cf: British "bulldog" assistant to proctor]. Also, a Naval officer in CIVVIES while ashore on leave; compare MUFTI. Found at: http://www.combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/MILTERMS.HTM I first recall this from the movie The Americanization of Emily in which James Garner plays an admiral's dog robber. Page Stephens From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Thu Jul 29 13:28:12 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:28:12 -0500 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > for? M to which the original poster replied > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > worms , > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? Rachel ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 13:40:11 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:40:11 -0700 Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) Message-ID: FWIW, Redi-Wip was redily available by the late 1950s, and IIRC Kool-Wip (sp?) was out ca1960. JL Robert Redford's Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization has been stuck on 1964 for weeks now. One of the things that I'm waiting for (aside from the California roll, granola, and trail mix) is "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford." I'll provide some other posts for it. A recent book on American desserts insists that this is from the late 1960s, but that sounds too early. ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS by Judith M. Fertig Boston: Harvard Common Press 2003 Pg. 402: _The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford_ The year was 1966. (...) Robert Redford was about to become a Hollywood heartthrob by starring in _Barefoot in the Park_ with Jane Fonda. General Foods Corporation launched Cool Whip nondairy whipped topping. Almost immediately, American cooks, freed from the not-so-arduous task of whipping real cream, became almost giddy with this sense of dessert freedom--and with the smooth, creamy taste of this nondairy whipped topping. Desserts with improbable names like "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford" or "Can't Leave it Alone"--the two I have in my recipe collection--were hastily written down on recipe cards. 1966 seems too early, based on the below...I've never eaten Robert Redford, but I've eaten Paul Newman. 1 September 1982, POST STANDARD (Syracuse, NY), pg. D-7, col. 1: By BETSY BALSLEY The Los Angeles Times (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Some of these recipes have decidedly provocative names. Who, for instance, could resist trying a dessert called The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford or a cake entitled Better Than Sex? Here are a few of the recipes that have found a home in my personal recipe file during the last year: _THE NEXT BEST THING_ _TO ROBERT REDFORD_ 1 cup flour 1 to 2 cups butter or margarine, softened 1 cup finely-chopped pecans 1 (8-ounce) package of cream cheese, softened 1 cup sugar 1 (8-ounce) carton of frozen non-dairy whipped topping, thawed 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant vanilla pudding mix 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant chocolate pudding mix 3 cups cold milk Grated chocolate candy bar, optional Prepare bottom crust by mixing together flour, butter and pecans until crumblike. Press mixture into (Col. 3-ed.) greased 13-by-9-inch baking pan. Bake at 350 degrees 15 to 20 minutes until lightly golden. Cool. Beat cream cheese with sugar until smooth. Fold in half of whipped topping. Spread mixture over cooled crust. COmbine vanilla and chocolate pudding mixes. Beat in milk until smooth and thickened. Spread over cream cheese layer. Spread remaining whipped topping over top. Sprinkle with grated chocolate candy bar, if desired. Cover and refrigerate overnight. Makes 16 servings. The origin of this cake is in doubt. The recipe has been passed from food editor to food editor all around the country. However, it does seem likely that it had its beginnings somewhere along the eastern seaboard where, according to Helen Moore, food editor of the Charlotte (N.C.) Observer, "people like sweet and gooey desserts." _BETTER THAN SEX CAKE_ 1 (18 1/2-ounce) package of yellow cake mix 1 (1-pound, 4-ounce) can of crushed pineapple 1 cup of sugar 1 (6-ounce) package of vanilla pudding mix 1 cup whipping cream, whipped and sweetened COconut, lightly toasted Prepare cake in 13-by-9-inch baking pan and bake according to package directions. Combine crushed pineapple and sugar in saucepan and bring to boil. Cool slightly. When baked cake has cooled, poke holes in it with fork. Pour pineapple mixture over it. Prepare pudding mix according to package directions. Cool. Spread prepared pudding over top. Chill. Just before serving, cover with sweetened whipped cream and sprinkle with coconut. If desired, garnish with pineapple slices. Makes 12 to 16 servings. 24 August 1982, Syracuse (NY) HERALD-JOURNAL, pg. D-12, col. 5: Several readers responded to Jane Eckley's request for Robert Redford pie. Here is one version from Mrs. Mary Falcone, who says she uses a cake instead of pie dish. Mrs. Falcone called the recipe "the next best thing to Robert Redford." _ROBERT REDFORD PIE_ Crust: 1 cup flour 1/2 cup margarine 1 cup chopped walnuts Combine and press into bottom of 9x133 cake pan. Bake 20 minutes at 350 degrees. Cool. Mix: 8-ounce package cream cheese 1 cup non-dairy whipped topping 1 cup powdered sugar Spread over cooled crust. In a large bowl combine and stir until thick: 1 box instant chocolate pudding 1 box instant vanilla pudding 2 cups milk Stir until thick. Pour over first 2 layers (crust and cream cheese mixture). Cover with additional whipped toppin. If desired, grate small chocolate bar over top for garnish. WIll keep covered up to 2 weeks in refrigerator or may be frozen. OT: WHERE IN THE WORLD IS BARRY POPIK?--New York CIty WHAT DID BARRY POPIK HAVE FOR DINNER?--Afghan cuisine, at Pamir on Second Avenue and East 75th Street. W --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 13:53:05 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:53:05 -0700 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: Not me. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Twitchy? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > for? M to which the original poster replied > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > worms , > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? Rachel ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 14:27:49 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:27:49 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when you thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it makes no sense. Well the other day I was watching a tv program about Clarence Birdseye and the invention of frozen foods on The History Channel, and an expert on the subject used the same word. Penny damned near fell out of her chair laughing and said something like, "And I thought you were the only person who was dumb enough to use that word, but I guess I was wrong." Anyone else ever hear it used? Page Stephens From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 29 14:31:36 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:31:36 -0400 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <004101c47578$3a6d8d80$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0400, Page Stephens wrote: > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it makes > no sense. OED has an entry for this, helpfully defined as "To thaw", with cites from 1598 (admittedly labelled "Now dial."). We have a decent number of recent examples too. Reasonable amount of relevant evidence on Google. JTS From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jul 29 14:50:57 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:50:57 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Jul 2004 to 28 Jul 2004 (#2004-211) In-Reply-To: <20040729040514.4812922885@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ron Butters wrote: >>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:17 EDT From: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20mmmkay=3F=20and=20i?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ts=20kin?= IE9uIEp1bCAyLCAyMDA0LCBhdCA5OjUwIEFNLCBBcm5vbGQgWndpY2t5IHdyb3RlOgoKPj4g Li4uwqAgaSBoYWQgbm90aWNlZCBpdCB5ZWFycwo+PiBiZWZvcmUgdGhhdCwgYnV0IChzaW5j ZSBpIGRpZG4ndCBoYXZlIHRoZSBmZWF0dXJlIG15c2VsZikgaGFkbid0Cj4+IHJlYWxpemVk IHRoYXQgaXQgd2FzIGEgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IGFtZXJpY2FuIHRoaW5nLgoKPmkgYmVsaWV2 [...] <<< Ron, would you mind repeating that in plain text? Or just in text? Or in English? :-) -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 15:01:20 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:01:20 -0400 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: It reminds me of the term "wiggers" which comes from a contraction of white and niggers which I have heard used by white teenage boys who do their best to imitate blacks in terms of hip hop, etc. so perhaps this is a form of slang formation which is current but with which I am not an expert on. In terms of wiggers I have heard it used by white kids as something to be proud of and by black kids who use it to put them down. It reminds me on some levels of cockney rhyming slang because it depends on its validity on rules of word formation since you have to look back to the origins of the terms and not to the actual pronunciation with which it has very little relation. Thus as an old cockney friend might say if I had hit my head, "You have a bump on your lump, Mite." which would mean that I had a bump on my head ie. lump of lead. Or if someone would say that his feet were sore he would say, "Your plites are sore, mite." which would mean that your plates of meat, ie. feet, were hurting you. I hope that this is of some use to you. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:28 AM Subject: Twitchy? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" > Organization: University of Alabama Libraries > Subject: Twitchy? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently > referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > > > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > > for? M > > to which the original poster replied > > > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > > worms , > > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. > > I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L > archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I > wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? > > Rachel > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ > > Rachel E. Shuttlesworth > Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow > University of Alabama Libraries > Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 > Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 > rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:10:11 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:10:11 -0400 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291431.AVK99953@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:17:13 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:17:13 -0400 Subject: Twitchy? In-Reply-To: <200407291501.AVL03136@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:20:48 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:20:48 -0500 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291427.i6TERs45000753@relay2.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used literally; go figure) unloosen/loosen bone/debone and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it is really two different words that have become identical) Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho sometimes it means Dennis Preston) Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:03:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:03:45 -0700 Subject: another coordination example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 10:26 PM, i wrote: > ...this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. > but > (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate > sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. that last example should have been Gapped: "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy sashimi". definitely asterisk time... arnold From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:12:43 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:12:43 -0500 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for comments from ADS listmembers. 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often semantically empty. 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both geographically and socially. Jim Parish From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:22:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:22:38 -0700 Subject: Twitchy? In-Reply-To: <20040729135305.25657.qmail@web61306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Not me. > > "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: > > On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently > referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded > with > >> I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old >> for? M > > to which the original poster replied > >> Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can >> of >> worms , >> BUT Twitch = teen and witch. >> Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater >> Rhodes >> and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to >> tell >> them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they >> are >> always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention >> The >> Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did >> have >> some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. > > I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L > archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I > wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? a possibly contributing factor is the famous "twitch" (of the nose) that Samantha used to perform magical feats on the 60s tv comedy Bewitched. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 16:26:53 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:26:53 EDT Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: Don't forget pants/depants Always been my favorite. -doug In a message dated 7/29/2004 10:33:42 AM Central Standard Time, debaron at UIUC.EDU writes: Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 16:57:06 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:57:06 -0700 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? JL Dennis Baron wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: Unthaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used literally; go figure) unloosen/loosen bone/debone and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it is really two different words that have become identical) Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho sometimes it means Dennis Preston) Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.ed --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 17:00:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:00:33 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: I second all your observations but No. 1. I believe I use both terms on occasion, but don't know where I picked them up. Surely in NYC as a child, but I don't know if they're typical of NYC speech. JL Jim Parish wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jim Parish Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for comments from ADS listmembers. 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often semantically empty. 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both geographically and socially. Jim Parish --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jul 29 17:03:01 2004 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:03:01 -0500 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <200407291212.33410921fbc7@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I can give you personal data if that helps. I'm from Pittsburgh originally, though I've traveled a lot which may have influenced my speech. But I often say "who all" and "what all" In my mind, they're not hyphenated. Here is the context in which I find myself using these: "Who all came to the party last night?" "What all do we need from the store?" Not sure if that helps any, but I don't perceive it as a Southernism, since I don't say "you-all" (I'm a "yinz" person myself. Patti Kurtz English Department Minot State University Minot, ND -- Ed Straker: It's just lucky for her that an alien came through that door instead of her husband From CPASS234 at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 17:09:38 2004 From: CPASS234 at AOL.COM (Charlotte Pass) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:09:38 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: As a native Southerner who grew up in the foothills of the Appalachians, I certainly recognize (and often use) "who-all," "what-all" and "where-all". My extended family members have utilized these words as long as I can remember. It gets really tricky trying to transcribe interviews with some of them because of sentences such as, "So, where all're youins goin' to?" Most of the usage is limited to questioning or to restatements of questions. Ex. - He asked us whereall we'd been. With regard to the status of the hyphen, I must admit that I've never seen these words in written form. In my "neck of the woods" we limit their usage to oral exchanges. I would be curious to hear what others have to say about these words as well. Charlotte L. Pass The University of Alabama College of Education Secondary Education Curriculum, Teaching, and Learning 204 Graves Hall Tuscaloosa, AL 35487 From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 29 18:35:10 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:35:10 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:27:49 -0400 Page Stephens writes: > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when > you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since > it makes > no sense. My bugaboo is "hot water heater" for what is in fact a cold water heater. Hot water doesn't need heating. From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:25:16 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291745.i6THjXOa016319@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I believe I once proposed amphibology, but I wasn't particularly serious. dennis On Jul 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. > > Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? > > JL > > Dennis Baron wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: Re: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites > (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. > Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). > > These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: > > ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) > literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally > is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used > literally; go figure) > unloosen/loosen > bone/debone > and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it > is really two different words that have become identical) > > Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho > sometimes it means Dennis Preston) > > > > > > Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 > Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 > Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 > University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > debaron at uiuc.ed > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:26:06 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:26:06 -0500 Subject: language birth Message-ID: Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world language and I want to say that one option for the future of English could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance languages, only more recent? Dennis From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 18:44:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:52 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281012.1bPRYC1Kb3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 1:12 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400, > Wilson Gray writes inter alia: > >> the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War > > In 1970 or 1971 I checked out a book from the library of Fort Myer, > Virginia. > Stamped inside the front cover was the notice "For the use of colored > troops > at Fort Sill". The book was "Paul Revere and the World He Lived In" by > Esther Forbes, which had a first hardcover edition of 1942, so it > appears that the > expression "colored troops" (I don't remember if it were capitalized) > was > still in official use, at least by Army librarians, during World War > II. > > (I remember this notice due to the irony of juxtaposing the iconic Paul > Revere with segregated libraries.) During the Civil War, the United States Army also had a Corps d'Afrique. And I'll bet you thought Hitler was first to come up with that!;-) > >> Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white >> generals. > > Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" > among > other things is an official position, the chief administrative officer > of a > unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position is > too busy with > paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an > "aide" > however vary from general to general and frequently involves being a > manservant. > (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide and a > chief of > staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) > > - James A. Landau > You are, in fact, absolutely correct. I must admit that I meant > neither. Rather, I was exaggerating for effect, the fact of the matter > being that, prior to Vietnam, what few black flag-grade officers that > there were always deputy commanders. l had in mind specifically the > case of Air Force LtGen Benjamin Oliver Davis, Jr., the second black > person to be come a general officer in the US military. His father, > Army BrGen Benjamin Oliver Davis, was the first. He retired at that > rank, knowing that he would never rise any higher. As Junior rose > through the ranks, he was continually shifted from one end of the > earth to the other, if necessary, so that he was ever a deputy, never > a commander. And, of course, there was no way that he was going to get > that fourth star without ever having truly held command. This changed > in Vietnam. Black soldiers of whatever rank - well, they had at least > to hold the lowest NCO rank, corporal - were, for the first time, > finally permitted to lead white troops as well as black ones in the > field during a time of war. Without Vietnam, there would never have > been a Gen Colin Powell, USA, Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. When > Rev. King came out against that war, I thought that he had gone off > the deep end. The war was none of his business. Besides, he'd never > served in any branch of the military. What did he know! I wanted to > shout the punch line of an old joke: "Shut up! Mr. James is robbing > this train!" -Wilson Gray From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:46:36 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:46:36 -0700 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That sounds like either the study of frogs or a medical term for some distasteful growth, disease or procedure. (Do we need a word for that?) * E.g.: "Patient No. 5537118 has an amphibology on his left forearm." Or: "Mr. Smith, I'm afraid we're going to have to do an amphibology." I vote for "ipsonyms." Peter Mc. --On Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:25 PM -0500 Dennis Baron wrote: > I believe I once proposed amphibology, but I wasn't particularly > serious. > dennis > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Unthaw >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. >> >> Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? >> >> JL >> >> Dennis Baron wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dennis Baron >> Subject: Re: Unthaw >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites >> (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. >> Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). >> >> These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: >> >> ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) >> literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally >> is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used >> literally; go figure) >> unloosen/loosen >> bone/debone >> and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it >> is really two different words that have become identical) >> >> Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho >> sometimes it means Dennis Preston) >> >> >> >> >> >> Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 >> Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 >> Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 >> University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www >> 608 S. Wright St. >> Urbana, IL 61801 >> debaron at uiuc.ed >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. >> ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Thu Jul 29 19:20:20 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: language birth Message-ID: QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. THOMAS PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: language birth > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: > are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? > > Dennis > From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Thu Jul 29 19:42:29 2004 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:42:29 -0500 Subject: language birth Message-ID: It seems to me that the only languages with "births" you can pinpoint would be created ones, although they, too, are created out of something. There could be a good argument for advancing symbol systems, such as COBOL, perhaps, in terms of machine language, although I assume that such symbol sets may not fit the general requirement for language -- being known to a large community. That may be changing, however, as more people communicate through such systems. I assume that's true of niche "languages" as well, even if they are thoughtfully constructed and known to certain groups (Trekkies, Lord of the Rings fans etc.) But what about Esperanto? In the late 60s and 70s, Esperanto was actually an elective in my (fairly conservative) Texas high school. With such a constructed language, one might at least pin down a birth point, though the universal language concept seems to be dying (or to have died) a slow death. Susan Yerkes -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas Paikeday Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: language birth QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. THOMAS PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: language birth > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- ----- > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is > this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? > > Dennis > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 20:27:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:27:37 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281828.1bPZIB1kG3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even libraries bought it. > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. Thanks for the cite re Davis. > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. That's great! I love it! -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 20:52:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:52:06 -0400 Subject: Re 2: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281828.1bPZIB1kG3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. > > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. I forgot to mention that the book that I referred to was published in the late '70's or early '80's. Hence, its author may well have been familiar with the above saying. Too bad. This lessens the impact of the opening lines of the novel on me, given that they may not be entirely original. Oh, well. That's life. But, what the hell? Not even Homer and Shakespeare were entirely original. -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 21:55:34 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:55:34 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Wilson, I've been running several WorldCat searches for a novel called "The Private," published between 1950 and 1975 and have come up with nothing on the one hand and "more than 10,000" irrelevant titles on the other. Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down without an author. I read "From Here to Eternity" in high school. (NOT homework, obviously.) It was great. Twenty-five years later it was still great. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even libraries bought it. > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. Thanks for the cite re Davis. > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. That's great! I love it! -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 29 23:05:43 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:05:43 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <20040729215535.32208.qmail@web61304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >without an author. Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another candidate with the same title.) -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 30 01:57:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:17 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Doug, Bingo! And one of the 260 libraries worldwide that has it is - our own! Thanks for the tip! JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >without an author. Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another candidate with the same title.) -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 02:16:18 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:16:18 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: An example moving in the opposite direction: inflammable/flammable. A. Murie From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 02:40:46 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:40:46 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <200407290912.1bQdwp6Y73NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 12:12 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I > find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in > writing, > but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just > conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online > acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for > comments from ADS listmembers. > > 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands > dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although > several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but > not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. > > 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the > written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) > > 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, > "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few > notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a > complete > roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use > them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often > semantically empty. In a version of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek, "it" shouts, "Who-all ain't hid, holler 'eyeball'!" Clearly, *all* the people who haven't hidden are expected to respond to respond, as is obvious to anyone from other versions, "Everybody ain't hid, say 'aye'!" and "All that ain't hid, holler 'aye'!" These versions are from Cairo, IL; Saint Louis, MO; and Marshall, TX, respectively, and all are versions played by black children. -Wilson Gray > > 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, > rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although > one > claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative > contexts. > > 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- > all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but > I do > not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- > all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. > > So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on > these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both > geographically and socially. > > Jim Parish > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 03:29:39 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407291455.1bQiSi65t3NZFkl0@cockatoo> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 5:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson, I've been running several WorldCat searches for a novel called > "The Private," published between 1950 and 1975 and have come up with > nothing on the one hand and "more than 10,000" irrelevant titles on > the other. > > Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down > without an author. Thank you for your effort, Jon. I greatly appreciate it. I tossed my copy back in the '60's during an annual cleaning of my room. Seemed like a good idea, at the time. This book also had a brief section debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the hand salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, given that they have far more respect for one another than they have for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute anyone wounded in combat, regardless of rank? You get the idea. -Wilson > I read "From Here to Eternity" in high school. (NOT homework, > obviously.) It was great. > Twenty-five years later it was still great. > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were >> another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose >> fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical >> savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against >> Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many >> ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young >> and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. >> >> Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or >> "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go >> back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. > > It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined > the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - > some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing > violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those > books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to > Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," > which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, > about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat > is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite > closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback > original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even > libraries bought it. > >> You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The >> best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful >> "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. >> On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness >> that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality >> than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more >> youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the >> Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") > > Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. >> >> Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on >> his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true >> enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in >> "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of >> memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has >> written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at >> Indiana U. now.) > > "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a > shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for > second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps > rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac > convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to > front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied > on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. > > Thanks for the cite re Davis. >> >> Old saying (circa 1968): >> >> "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy >> story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, >> this is no shit...'. > > That's great! I love it! > > -Wilson > >> >> Jon >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >>> >>> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >>> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >>> >>> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >>> -- or was it? >> >> No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was >> drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was >> also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= >> Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd >> and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, >> Processing >> Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a >> non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally >> assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we >> were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey >> Marys" >> by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & >> Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the >> Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= >> homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both >> Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of >> the >> Security Agency as an Animal. >> >>> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I >>> taught >>> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >>> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) >>> was >>> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >>> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >>> stereotypical reinforcement. >> >> I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war >> flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed >> and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and >> had >> bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that >> we >> whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and >> cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, >> back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse >> Now far more palatable. >> >> Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a >> bad >> - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, >> e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I >> even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and >> Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody >> understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was >> being >> deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks >> were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly >> putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in >> danger. >> And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted >> that battle scene in this way. >>> >>> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >>> been written by black GI's. >> >> I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But >> it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, >> my >> favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin >> the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" >> underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old >> soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by >> alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >>> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >>> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will >>> proceed >>> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >>> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >>> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >>> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white >>> troops >>> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >>> as >>> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a >>> consequence, >>> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >>> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only >>> black >>> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >>> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >>> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >>> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >>> general, >>> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >>> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >>> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >>> the >>> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >>> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >>> >>> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >>> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common >>> term >>> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >>> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >>> >>> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >>> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >>> was >>> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >>> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >>> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >>> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >>> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white >>> generals. >>> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >>> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see >>> the >>> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >>> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >>> you >>> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >>> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >>> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >>> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >>> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>>> German >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> - >>>> - >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this >>>> had >>>> been reduced to "rads." >>>> >>>> JL >>>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> - >>>> - >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>>> >>>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>>> tell >>>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based >>>> on >>>> German "sprechen" speak. >>>> >>>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>>> as >>>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>>> as >>>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as >>>> the >>>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>>> like >>>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>>> >>>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I >>>> saw >>>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>>> problem >>>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>>> by >>>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - >>>> man-in-the-street >>>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>>> of >>>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even >>>> if >>>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>>> to >>>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's >>>> would >>>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>>> street. >>>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>>> turn >>>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>>> meal >>>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>>> >>>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>>> didn't >>>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible >>>> to >>>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>>> white >>>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>>> >>>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to >>>> me, >>>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>>> beautiful in Europe." >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> Do you Yahoo!? >>>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 30 03:30:37 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:30:37 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <4108DBAB.19056.87E37AB@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:12 PM 7/29/2004, you wrote: >Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I >find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, >but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just >conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online >acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for >comments from ADS listmembers. I can only give my casual notions. I use these routinely (although probably not frequently), and I heard them routinely in my youth in Detroit. I hear them here in Pittsburgh nowadays, but I can't say how often, or whether more or less than elsewhere/elsewhen. >1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands >dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although >several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but >not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. I don't have a strong feeling either way. >2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the >written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) Both styles seem OK to me, and I THINK I've seen both repeatedly. I like the hyphen myself. >3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, >"Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few >notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete >roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use >them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often >semantically empty. I take the "-all" to be an explicit pluralization: e.g., "who" = "which person or persons", "who-all" = "which persons". I agree that "-all" tends to imply a complete inventory. >4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, >rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one >claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. I don't know: I'd need some examples. >5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- >all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do >not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- >all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. "Where-all" is routine for me. "When-all" seems hypothetically OK but I don't remember ever using or encountering it. "Which-all", "how-all", "why-all", "whither-all", etc. are unfamiliar and seem strange to me offhand. BTW: I use "y'all" = "you-all" myself when I want an explicitly plural "you". Here in Pittsburgh "y'uns" (theoretically = "you-ones" I guess) is conventional (although not all natives use it); "y'all"/"you-all" is also not uncommon here. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 03:46:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:46:57 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407291605.1bQjYi4CG3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 7:05 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >> without an author. > > Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another > candidate > with the same title.) > > -- Doug Wilson Thank you! -Wilson Gray > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 04:54:59 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:54:59 EDT Subject: Pizza Margarita (1880?) Message-ID: www.barrypopik.com has been up about a week. I still don't have things in the proper order, or the 1924 "Big Apple" graphic scanned in yet. It recently got mentions in places such as Word Detective, eGullet, and Food History News. I was looking over some stuff for a possible pizza post, and realized that I didn't post this yet. The "Pizza Margarita" was thought to have been invented in 1889. Queen Margaret at Naples. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1880. p. 2 (1 page) _Queen Margaret at Naples._ >From the Geneva Gazette. Queen Margaret is in Naples at the palace of Capediamonte, and a story is related of her which explains the secret of her popularity among the people. A favorite eatable with the Neapolitans is the pizza, a sort of cake beaten flat in a round form, and seasoned with carious condiments. The Queen sent for a pizzaimole, who is famous for his skill in making these cakes, as she said "she wanted to eat likethe poor people." The man went to the palace, was received, and having shown a list of thirty-five varieties of pizza, was sent to the royal kitchen to make the kind which the Queen had selected. He made eight, which were the ideals of their kind, and the little Prince and his mother found them excellent, but to eat as the poor people in Naples eat--that is often not all, and is more than could be expected. But she has visited the poor quarter of Naples, and sympathizes with the misery she sees there. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 05:12:59 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:12:59 -0700 Subject: Language Files In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040727135702.01d65968@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later > ones; > my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the > audiotapes > soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish > (maybe I > should send Brian a set too!). the ideal thing to do here would be to write to rich janda at ohio state and offer copies to him. > Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've > become > too discursive and less workbookish. less workbookish, certainly. i think the compilers were hoping to make them more engaging, though. (but also more complete and self-standing. these things can work against one another.) > ..This fall though, I'm switching in my own > section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you > part of > that project? Any thoughts on it? not part of it at all; it was a san diego state thing. i haven't looked at it in detail, but it's strictly on english, so not really usable for an Intro to Language course. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 06:39:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:39:54 EDT Subject: Roller Derby (1922) Message-ID: NEWSPAPERARCHIVE Now Newspaperarchive welcomes me with "Welcome back, Manitoba Culture, Heritage, and Tourism!" I know that "Popik" is a hard spell, but this is ridiculous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ROLLER DERBY It's often said that Damon Runyon coined "Roller Derby," about 1935. Not so. It appears that Chicago had it first. Hey, it happens. Maybe I'll do a Chicago page, but it appears that someone else reading my web site has a similar idea. (OED) [1935 Chicago Tribune 13 Aug. 19/6 A 3000 mile roller skating derby will open at noon today when 50 skaters begin the long grind inside the main hall of the Coliseum.] 1936 N.Y. Times 11 Sept. 34/4 The *Roller Derby, first of the kind to be seen in New York, and in which fourteen teams of skaters composed of men and girls are entered, got well under way at the Hippodrome last night... The derby is a mythical race from Salt Lake City to New York. 1945 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. NET ASSOCIATION TO EYE TRIPS OF STARS FOR SIGNS OF "PROISM" Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 24, 1922. p. 20 (1 page): _ROLLER DERBY_ _ON TOMORROW_ Roland Cloni of Akron, world's champion roller skater, who yesterday tried out the track in the Broadway armory, where the national roller skating derby will be held this week, asserted new world's records can be established for flat tracks. The derby will open tomorrow and run until Saturday. 2. ED KRAHN AND LAUNEY SHARE ROLLER FIRSTS Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 29, 1922. p. 13 (1 page) 3. VON HOF FIRST IN TEN MILE ROLLER DERBY Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 1, 1922. p. 21 (1 page) 4. FRANCIS ALLEN 1ST IN 15 MILE BICYCLE RACE Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 14, 1924. p. 26 (1 page) 5. BAGGERLY APPROVES NEW RULE Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 21, 1935. p. A11 (1 page) 6. State's Wonders Exhibited; NEW FRUITS ON DISPLAY AT STORE May Company's Roof Show Exhibits Late Wonders of State's Agriculture Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 23, 1935. p. A3 (1 page) 7. SOX LOSE, 4-1; CUBS WHIP CARDINALS, 3-2; ROOT'S PITCHING STOP ST. LOUIS' WINNING STREAK 11th Triumph for Veteran. Root Halts Card Hitters; Cubs Win, 3-2 IRVING VAUGHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 12, 1935. p. 15 (2 pages) 8. Display Ad 21 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1935. p. 22 (1 page) 9. Display Ad 11 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 26, 1935. p. 13 (1 page) 10. Display Ad 19 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 30, 1935. p. 21 (1 page) From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 12:21:25 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:21:25 -0400 Subject: language birth Message-ID: The most fascinating created language I know of is Klingon which, of course stems from Star Trek. If anyone wants to find more about it they can find it at: http://www.kli.org Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yerkes, Susan" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:42 PM Subject: Re: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Yerkes, Susan" > Subject: Re: language birth > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > It seems to me that the only languages with "births" you can pinpoint > would be created ones, although they, too, are created out of something. > > > There could be a good argument for advancing symbol systems, such as > COBOL, perhaps, in terms of machine language, although I assume that > such symbol sets may not fit the general requirement for language -- > being known to a large community. That may be changing, however, as more > people communicate through such systems. > I assume that's true of niche "languages" as well, even if they are > thoughtfully constructed and known to certain groups (Trekkies, Lord of > the Rings fans etc.) > > But what about Esperanto? > > In the late 60s and 70s, Esperanto was actually an elective in my > (fairly conservative) Texas high school. > With such a constructed language, one might at least pin down a birth > point, though the universal language concept seems to be dying (or to > have died) a slow death. > > Susan Yerkes > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Thomas Paikeday > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:20 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: language birth > > > QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: > > Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct > or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July > 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the > same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" > languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis > Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it > happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of > languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life > and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when > Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became > differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve > so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that > is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. > > THOMAS PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Baron" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM > Subject: language birth > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Dennis Baron > > Subject: language birth > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > ----- > > > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > > > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is > > this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > > languages, only more recent? > > > > Dennis > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ > This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 12:31:25 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:31:25 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Wilson, When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in southern Illinois? Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:40 PM Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" > > In a version of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek, "it" shouts, "Who-all > ain't hid, holler 'eyeball'!" Clearly, *all* the people who haven't > hidden are expected to respond to respond, as is obvious to anyone from > other versions, "Everybody ain't hid, say 'aye'!" and "All that ain't > hid, holler 'aye'!" These versions are from Cairo, IL; Saint Louis, MO; > and Marshall, TX, respectively, and all are versions played by black > children. > > -Wilson Gray > > > From simon at IPFW.EDU Fri Jul 30 14:38:08 2004 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:38:08 -0500 Subject: Language Files Message-ID: Beverly, Yes, please, make copies of the tapes! thanks, beth beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 7/30/2004 12:12:59 AM >>> On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later > ones; > my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the > audiotapes > soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish > (maybe I > should send Brian a set too!). the ideal thing to do here would be to write to rich janda at ohio state and offer copies to him. > Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've > become > too discursive and less workbookish. less workbookish, certainly. i think the compilers were hoping to make them more engaging, though. (but also more complete and self-standing. these things can work against one another.) > ..This fall though, I'm switching in my own > section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you > part of > that project? Any thoughts on it? not part of it at all; it was a san diego state thing. i haven't looked at it in detail, but it's strictly on english, so not really usable for an Intro to Language course. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 16:25:23 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:25:23 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Couple things. a.) I do use who-all, etc. often and afaik always have. b.) I don't think they imply completeness so much as just a list of things, or explicit pluralization. c.) Have we discussed explicit plural "all" insertions before? i.e. "I saw it all on Mulberry Street". I tried the archive but couldn't find anything. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 16:40:24 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:40:24 EDT Subject: language birth Message-ID: It's probably not what you're looking for, but constructed/planned languages quickly pop to mind. Esperanto begat Ido, etc.; Lojlan begat Logban... there are more. If that *is* what you're looking for, let me know and I can comb the files for relevant info. Other than that, what about using pidgins or creoles? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 16:55:24 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:55:24 -0700 Subject: lifestyle drug Message-ID: from Alex Frankel, Word Craft: The Art of Turning Little Words Into Big Business (NY: Crown, 2004), p. 144, just after the introduction of the term "lifestyle drug", in connection with the naming of drugs: ----- Traditional medical applications are concerned wit treating, controlling, or reducing the risk of serious medical conditions like high cholesterol, heart disease, and diabetes. Lifestyle drugs treat physical presentation (like dental care, acne, aging, hair loss, and weight control), performance (mental concentration in the workplace, stress reduction, sexual performance), and general well-being (pain reduction, mood regulation, incontinence). Lifestyle drugs can make people's lives feel happier and more content (though not necessarily by curing a serious medical condition). Based on what they treat, lifestyle drugs have necessarily led naming trends in a more conceptual direction. ----- i didn't find "lifestyle drug" in the recent ADS archives, nor in a google search for "lifestyle drug" in combination with "Nunberg" (geoff nunberg having written several times on "lifestyle"). frankel reports that the term "comes up frequently in the literature around modern pharmaceuticals" (p. 143). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jul 30 16:59:35 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: lifestyle drug In-Reply-To: <405FA07A-E249-11D8-9302-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:55:24AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > i didn't find "lifestyle drug" in the recent ADS archives, nor in a > google search for "lifestyle drug" in combination with "Nunberg" (geoff > nunberg having written several times on "lifestyle"). frankel reports > that the term "comes up frequently in the literature around modern > pharmaceuticals" (p. 143). OED published an entry for this about three years ago, defined as "a drug used to treat a condition that is not (necessarily) life-threatening but that has a significant impact on the quality of life", and with a first quotation from 1982. Jesse Sheidlower OED From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Jul 30 17:39:54 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:39:54 +0100 Subject: lifestyle drug In-Reply-To: <20040730165934.GA12722@panix.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > OED published an entry for this about three years ago, defined as "a > drug used to treat a condition that is not (necessarily) > life-threatening but that has a significant impact on the quality of > life", and with a first quotation from 1982. See also http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-lif1.htm, an entry which is now a little out of date, since it was written in 1998. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 18:09:42 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:09:42 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: >> As I've said here before, women don't >> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >> nary nobody oblected!) > > In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea > culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 19:09:14 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:09:14 EDT Subject: The history of saluting Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Wilson Gray writes: This book also had a brief section > debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of > respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in > any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the hand > salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, > given that they have far more respect for one another than they have > for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted > combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute anyone > wounded in combat, regardless of rank? This idea that saluting is a sign of _respect_ is a long-standing etymythology, frequently resorted to by those who have no idea the real reason for saluting, which is rather the opposite. It can be summed up in one word, or more exactly name: "Wallenstein" The armies that fought in the Thirty Year's War were mostly mercenaries, which means the soldiers in them owed allegiance only to the entrepreneur who recruited them, sometimes paid them, and most importantly fed them. The most notorious of these entrepreneurs was Albrecht Wenzel Eusebius von Wallenstein (1583-1634), a first-rate general, strategist, and businessman who for several years was de facto the commander for the Holy Roman Empire. He was also a man who followed his own agenda, rather than that of his nominal boss the Holy Roman Emperor, who finally decided there was no choice but to have Wallenstein assassinated. The Thirty Year's War ended (in Germany) in 1648 with the Peace of Westphalia, but it took until 1650 to get all those mercenaries rounded up and pacified. The Crowned Heads of Europe said, "Never again! No more Wallensteins! From now on armies will be agents of the State and do what the State wants." This new objective was so successful that when, two centuries later, Clausewitz said "War is a continuation of policy by other means", no one laughed. How did the Crowned Heads of Europe accomplish these? By three policies: 1) armies from now on will consist of two castes, officers and enlisted, and these two castes will be kept rigidly separated. 2) the enlisted caste will strictly obey the officer caste 3) the officer caste will do what the State wants them to do A number of rules, rituals, and customs sprang up to enforce policies 1) and 2). Some were planned; others just grew but were kept when they proved useful. Saluting was one of those rituals. Originally, when an enlisted man saluted an officer, it meant that the EM was acknowledging that he was segregated from and owed deference to the officer. When the officer returned the salute he was acknowledging that the enlisted man had offered the proper deference. Hence it makes sense to salute the flag (which outranks an officer) but not to salute fellow enlisted men. At least that was the original idea behind saluting. However, saluting quickly became such an accustomed and habitual ritual that to all but the most thin-skinned enlisted man it was merely a way of saying "the officer and I are both soldiers rather than civilians." (The custom of enlisted men in English-speaking armies addressing officers as "sir" has the same purpose of acknowledging deference towards the superior caste.) The origin of the saluting gesture is obscure. I have read in several sources that it originated when knights in armor had to raise the visors of their helmets in order to recognize each other, since the visors covered their faces. I doubt this explanation, since knights did ride around in public with their visors down (too difficult to breathe) . What about policy 3)? Remember that the commander of an army can do anything he wishes, and is restrained ONLY by his personal social and ethical code. Wallenstein, for example, had a particularly low level of ethics. So by the beginning of the 18th century the custom arose that all officers were to be *gentlemen.* (Hence the phrase "an officer and a gentleman"). This did not mean that an officer had to be of superior social standing (although many were from the nobility, one reason being that an officer needs to be able to read and in many places only the nobility were literate.) Rather it meant that the officer adhered strictly to the "code of the gentleman", the most important part of which was that he kept his word no matter what. (You are commander of a town under siege and you surrender on a promise from the opposing commader to protect the civilian townspeople. It will be a great relief to you to know that the man you surrendered to is a gentleman, because his word is the only thing that protects your people from being raped and murdered.) - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 20:10:48 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:10:48 EDT Subject: language birth Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:26:06 -0500 Dennis Baron writes >. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: > are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? Hardly unlikely. First, a caveat: whether two tongues are "separate languages" or "dialects of the same language" is a matter of local custom and politics. The adage that "a language is a dialect with an army" is 90% correct (I am still searching for the Yiddish army, though). The European out-migration that followed Columbus and Vasco da Gama spawned a number of pidgins, creoles, and other variants of European languages. (I won't try to distinguish between a pidgin and a creole because if I do Salikoko Mufwene will reach out from my computer screen and bop me over the head with a copy of _The Ecology of Language Evolution_). At least one of these variants has by long custom been considered a separate language rather than a dialect: Afrikaans. Another candidate is Gullah (MWCD11 defines it as "an English-based creole ...marked by vocabulary and grammatical elements from various African languages.") There are several members of ADS-L who have written on this list about Gullah, so I will leave it to them to pontificate on whether it is a separate language from English. (Judging by some Gullah quotes posted to this list, I would not be surprised to find that Gullah and English are NOT mutually intelligible). Still another candiate is Melanesian Pidgin, which in my experience gets described as a language on its own, rather than as a dialect of English. It is not only European languages that have spawned pidgins etc. since Vasco da Gama. There is for example Fanagolo (also known as ."FANAKALO", "FANEKOLO", "KITCHEN KAFFIR", "MINE KAFFIR", PIKI, ISIPIKI, "ISIKULA", LOLOLO, ISILOLOLO, PIDGIN BANTU, BASIC ZULU) which as far as I can tell is based on several South African languages. Notice that in the list above (copied from www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Sout.html ) it is called "Pidgin Bantu". I suppose it is well-enough known and has been widely-enough used to be classified as a language rather than as a dialect of Bantu or Zulu or whatever. Fanagolo was used for many years as a sort of Lingua Franca for miners from various African language groups who did not speak either English or some African language in common. Not surprisingly it picked up all the negative emotional baggage of both colonialism and apartheid, which makes it perhaps the only language on this planet to be Politically Incorrect. It has also been officially declared a safety hazard by the South African government (nowadays it is much more effective, as well as safer, for miners to communicate in English). It appears, from what I have read, that Fanagolo will die out in the not-too-distant future, at which time it will also have the distinction of being the only dead language in the history of this planet to die unmourned. Its only literary monument is a translation of MacBeth. - James A. Landau From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Jul 30 20:18:31 2004 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:18:31 -0500 Subject: another coordination example In-Reply-To: <200407300400.i6U40cWY019133@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps you can specify your "unity" more by calling it "metonymy" in this case. Especially in the given context, it's clear that "the property" refers to the property on which the hotel is currently sitting. One doesn't normally "turn" property "into" a development, but one "develops (a) property". You can test the metonymy by substituting different related nouns: "...the junk cars, which will be destroyed and the tires recycled." Obviously here, the tires are on the cars. Also, you can use normally unrelated nouns as a test: "... the junk cars, which will be crushed and the birds transferred to the sanctuary." Here, the birds must be roosting in the cars. or "...the hotel, which will be demolished and the lake filled in" where I end up assuming that the hotel has a lake next to it. That the second NP must be old information helps guide this construal. Also, notice that a possessive pronoun could be slipped in before the second NP: "...and its property turned into", "and their tires recycled", "and their birds transferred", "and its lake filled in". Your other example seems to me more like English serial verb periphrasis due to tense interaction and/or adverbial modification: *I'll give you some things that I went bought. Later I'll give you some things that I'll go buy. *Later I'll give you some things that I will go downtown buy. Later I'll give you some things that I'll go downtown and buy. Clai Rice --------------------------------------------- arnold wrote: here's another intriguing coordination example, from Randy Jensen, "City looks to keep car dealers”, Palo Alto Daily News 7/28/04, p. 2: ------ The concessions from the dealerships are an effort to help maintain a sales tax base that has recently been rocked by the potential loss of the Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development. ------ ok, let's take this apart. the crucial part is the relative clause: with its head -- (1) "Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development". the relative clause itself can be paraphrased as (2) "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development." now, (2) is a pretty ordinary example of Gapping: "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." a coordination of two clauses, the second of which is missing (part of) its verbal piece. so how do we get the relative clause? by "extraction" of the NP "Hyatt Rickeys" from one of the two clauses of (2) (the first). (excuse the transformational terminology.) but this is a violation of the Coordinate Structure Constraint (from Ross's 1968 dissertation). some might think this was an insuperable problem. but i don't find (1) at all bad. (see my Language Log posting at http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001266.html for some other conflicts between theory and (my) judgments.) what (1) feels like to me is some other well-known apparent counterexamples to the CSC, like (3) "I'll give you some things that I rushed downtown and bought". (not Gapping, but a more ordinary type of reduced coordination.) the usual observation about (3) is that what makes it ok is the unity of the event denoted by "I rushed downtown and bought [some things]." and that kind of unity is there, i think, in "Hyatt Rickey's will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. but (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 20:54:44 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:54:44 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Page Stephens writes: "When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in southern Illinois?" ~~~~~~~~~~ We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 30 21:00:19 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:00:19 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said olly, olly oxen free I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. dInIs >Page Stephens writes: >"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >southern Illinois?" >~~~~~~~~~~ >We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 30 21:32:49 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:49 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me to be virtually indefinable. As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) Another likelihood seems to be that the "extra" taboo language they've been using is restricted to the application of a relatively few common words. How many are "adept" at using the word "poontang," for example, which has been under discussion here lately. Frankly, I don't know. There is a dissertation topic here for someone. Writing in 1959-60, Stuart Flexner averred that women use less slang than men. This is also my impression. I'll be happy to change my view (which at this point is essentially as subjective as anybody's) when there is good data to refute it. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: >> As I've said here before, women don't >> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >> nary nobody oblected!) > > In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea > culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Jul 30 21:50:23 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:50:23 -0500 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A review of male/female instant messaging ought to be helpful here. I don't know about adults, but the female adolescents certainly seem to be holding their own.... sally donlon Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. > > You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me to be virtually indefinable. > > As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) > > Another likelihood seems to be that the "extra" taboo language they've been using is restricted to the application of a relatively few common words. How many are "adept" at using the word "poontang," for example, which has been under discussion here lately. Frankly, I don't know. There is a dissertation topic here for someone. > > Writing in 1959-60, Stuart Flexner averred that women use less slang than men. This is also my impression. I'll be happy to change my view (which at this point is essentially as subjective as anybody's) when there is good data to refute it. > > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > > >>>As I've said here before, women don't >>>understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>>nary nobody oblected!) >> >>In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >>culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 22:00:05 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:00:05 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of "all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't be absolutely certain of any one. AM ~~~~~~ >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > >olly, olly oxen free > >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > >dInIs > > > >>Page Stephens writes: >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >>southern Illinois?" >>~~~~~~~~~~ >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >>A. Murie >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:05:20 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:05:20 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the > slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have > in mind?... i'm short of time right now, but let me clarify one thing. i'm willing to treat the taboo part of the vocabulary as a special case, recognizing that at some times and in some sections of society this part of the lexicon might be strongly associated with men. i intended to talk about all the rest of it -- much of which concerns social roles and relationships, personal characteristics, etc.: hunk, cutie-pie, wimp, wuss, stud muffin, pickled 'drunk', kiddies, etc. but i'll return to this in a little while. arnold From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 30 22:10:05 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: I didn't take Wilson's suggestion that women don't understand slang very seriously, so I'm intrigued to read Jonathan's presumably more considered views. A couple of observations. First, it's absolutely to be expected that men and women will have different uses of sexual slang, and it's important to consider sexual slang separately in this context. Second, my subjective impression is that, at least for non-taboo slang, women are equally likely to understand and use slang, but that, for taboo slang, they are somewhat less likely to understand and use it (though there are some notable exceptions). John Baker From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:20:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:20:19 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same in southern California in the late 40s-early 50s. And it was chanted to a melody that, if you start with C, goes something like C C C C E-flat C C, with a rhythm of four quarter notes, two half notes and a concluding whole note. (There was a discussion of this on the list some time ago--it's probably to be found in the archives.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 30, 2004 5:00 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > olly, olly oxen free > > I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > dInIs > > > >> Page Stephens writes: >> "When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >> in southern Illinois?" >> ~~~~~~~~~~ >> We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> A. Murie >> >> >> >> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:19:38 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:19:38 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in alley, not Ollie.) At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >be absolutely certain of any one. >AM >~~~~~~ > > >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > > >olly, olly oxen free > > > >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>Page Stephens writes: > >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in > >>southern Illinois?" > >>~~~~~~~~~~ > >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) > >>A. Murie > >> > >> > >> > >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >University Distinguished Professor > >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > > Asian and African Languages > >Wells Hall A-740 > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office: (517) 353-0740 > >Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 23:37:45 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:37:45 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407301109.1bQBPf2LX3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > >>> As I've said here before, women don't >>> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>> nary nobody oblected!) >> >> In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >> culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) For some reason, I don't always receive postings and, in other cases, my replies have been received only by the original poster and not by the list. Hence, I'm not able to reply fully to Jonathon, since I have only the sentence partial that Arnold has included to work with. Jonathon, I am serious. I, of course, realize that sweeping generalizations about any class of human beings are overstatements, at the least, and are very, no, extremely likely to be utterly ludicrous. I've read the books and looked at the Web sites devoted to "scientific" racism. But that was my point. I was expecting at least a "McEnroe": you *can't* be serious! But, Arnold, I didn't realize that my claim was so empty of content as not to (or should that be "to not"?) merit any reply whatsoever. I'm hurt!;-) In any case, in addition to the case of the woman who "corrected" the phrase "lay dead" to "play dead," I had in mind cases like the following. Everyone here is, no doubt, familiar with the slang meaning of the phrase, "she's a cheap date," wherein "cheap date" means something like: "not only is she an easy lay, but she's also so stupid that she'll pick you up in her car, pay for your dinner, drinks, and cigarettes, and put the motel room on her credit card." Now, if I were a woman and I knew that men were saying that about me, even if it was true, at the very least, I'd be displeased. But it has been my experience that women are so unaware of what "cheap date" means that they consider it a compliment and literally *brag* that they've been called cheap dates! When I was a kid, I used to hear when-mother-was-a-girl stories in which I was often told that guys greeted chicks by saying, "Hi, stuff!", back in the day. By the time that I reached adolescence, I was fully aware that "stuff" was shortened from "good stuff" and that "good stuff" was just another way of saying, "piece of ass, pussy, boody, cunt," etc. Needless to say, I doubt that my mother would ever have allowed herself to be addressed that way, "stuff" when she was a young woman, had she the foggiest idea of what the guys were saying. I don't have any children, but I do have six nieces, ranging in age from 14 to 34, and they don't appear to be any more aware than their mothers. Naturally, they know most of the major four-letter words and use them with understanding and accuracy. Even the 14-year-old has known and understood the meaning of, e.g. MILF, since she was twelve and has known all of the words to, e.g. "Baby Got Back" since she was younger than that (*very* impressive; that song is epic in length) and delights in challenging my hipness (not to mention my sense of decorum) by asking me whether I know what, e.g. "cameltoe" means. (I do, now.) Of course, what I've described is based only on my own casual and random observations across an extremely narrow spectrum. Nevertheless, from chatting with my nieces, I find it difficult to believe that girls and women today truly understand guyspeak any more now than they did back in the day. Though I grant that the nieces certainly talk "dirtier" in a trivial sense, than "nice" girls used to, I'm constantly having to say to them, "Don't let guys to say those things to you!" When guys say that, they're actually making fun of you!" "Don't you realize that that is an insult?" "Never allow boys to say things like that to you!" Etc., etc., etc. We don't have HBO, unfortunately. -Wilson Gray From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 31 00:18:55 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:18:55 -0400 Subject: This is no shit Message-ID: FWIW, Wilson seems to me to be talking about code, rather than "slang." It is a vocabulary *meant to obscure* its true meaning, rather than a popular form of language. In a way, it's more like shibboleths: exclusionary rather than democratic. A. Murie From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Fri Jul 30 20:27:22 2004 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:27:22 +0100 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040730181640.02248ad8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: From my Seattle youth in 1970s (transplanted at age 8 from a peripatetic military-base existence until then; parents from Montana and Ohio): Where all'd you go on vacation? Who all'd you see? What all'd you see? But not *When all'd you get back? *How all'd you get there? And we said "ollie ollie in come free." Wendalyn Nichols At 11:19 PM 7/30/04, you wrote: >Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in >alley, not Ollie.) > >At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >>think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >>"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >>be absolutely certain of any one. >>AM >>~~~~~~ >> >> >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said >> > >> >olly, olly oxen free >> > >> >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >> >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >> >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >> >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. >> > >> >dInIs >> > >> > >> > >> >>Page Stephens writes: >> >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >> >>southern Illinois?" >> >>~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> >>A. Murie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Dennis R. Preston >> >University Distinguished Professor >> >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> > Asian and African Languages >> >Wells Hall A-740 >> >Michigan State University >> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> >Office: (517) 353-0740 >> >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> >>A&M Murie >>N. Bangor NY >>sagehen at westelcom.com From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 31 02:16:24 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:16:24 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > > > Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately > what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been > created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an > approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or > guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. > > You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of > the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do > you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me > to be virtually indefinable. > > As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an > abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women > (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo > language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those > who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 > or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) Some data points: when I was a teenager in the late 70s, my cousins and I were greatly amused that an older aunt, a woman who must have been in her 50s at the time, did not know what the word "fart" meant. (We overheard a conversation between her and her younger sisters about a humorous birthday card that used the word; so she was not pretending for the benefit of the youngsters.) She was an army officer's wife and had plenty of exposure to those of different "classes," enlisted men and their wives. But I'd be willing to bet that in her era speech patterns of others changed when "ladies were present" and she just did not hear such words. Similarly, in 1983 I recall my grandmother (born 1899) pronouncing the "w" in "whorehouse." (She had read a review of the Tom Cruise movie "Risky Business" and was speaking about "the boy who opened up...I guess you would call it a whorehouse." Clearly she knew what the word meant from reading, but I'm not sure she had ever heard the word pronounced. Strange, since she was a church-goer and must have heard some preacher talk about the "whore of Babylon" at some point, but maybe she didn't make the connection--or maybe it was our more genteel form of Presbyterianism that avoided such locutions even when in Scriptures. The degree of slang usage/comprehension among women is likely to be heavily influenced by age and social class. Certainly, the women I work with here in Silicon Valley, mostly in their late-20s and 30s, are as adept at slang usage as their male counterparts. Sexual slang is not prevalent in my workplace, but you occasionally do hear it and it's as likely to be from a woman as from a man. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 02:28:47 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:28:47 -0400 Subject: The history of saluting In-Reply-To: <200407301209.1bQCKV6C23NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 3:09 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: The history of saluting > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Wilson Gray > writes: > > This book also had a brief section >> debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of >> respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in >> any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the >> hand >> salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, >> given that they have far more respect for one another than they have >> for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted >> combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute >> anyone >> wounded in combat, regardless of rank? > > This idea that saluting is a sign of _respect_ is a long-standing > etymythology, frequently resorted to by those who have no idea the > real reason for > saluting, which is rather the opposite. > > It can be summed up in one word, or more exactly name: "Wallenstein" > > The armies that fought in the Thirty Year's War were mostly > mercenaries, > which means the soldiers in them owed allegiance only to the > entrepreneur who > recruited them, sometimes paid them, and most importantly fed them. > The most > notorious of these entrepreneurs was Albrecht Wenzel Eusebius von > Wallenstein > (1583-1634), a first-rate general, strategist, and businessman who for > several > years was de facto the commander for the Holy Roman Empire. He was > also a man > who followed his own agenda, rather than that of his nominal boss the > Holy Roman > Emperor, who finally decided there was no choice but to have > Wallenstein > assassinated. > > The Thirty Year's War ended (in Germany) in 1648 with the Peace of > Westphalia, but it took until 1650 to get all those mercenaries > rounded up and pacified. > The Crowned Heads of Europe said, "Never again! No more > Wallensteins! From > now on armies will be agents of the State and do what the State > wants." This > new objective was so successful that when, two centuries later, > Clausewitz > said "War is a continuation of policy by other means", no one laughed. It's nice to see "Politik" translated correctly for a change!:-) > > How did the Crowned Heads of Europe accomplish these? By three > policies: > 1) armies from now on will consist of two castes, officers and > enlisted, and > these two castes will be kept rigidly separated. > 2) the enlisted caste will strictly obey the officer caste > 3) the officer caste will do what the State wants them to do > > A number of rules, rituals, and customs sprang up to enforce policies > 1) and > 2). Some were planned; others just grew but were kept when they proved > useful. Saluting was one of those rituals. Originally, when an > enlisted man > saluted an officer, it meant that the EM was acknowledging that he was > segregated > from and owed deference to the officer. When the officer returned the > salute he > was acknowledging that the enlisted man had offered the proper > deference. > > Hence it makes sense to salute the flag (which outranks an officer) > but not > to salute fellow enlisted men. > > At least that was the original idea behind saluting. However, saluting > quickly became such an accustomed and habitual ritual that to all but > the most > thin-skinned enlisted man it was merely a way of saying "the officer > and I are > both soldiers rather than civilians." This reminds me of the quartermaster sgt in my BT Co, who used to say, "I don't like officers, but I HATE civilians! > > (The custom of enlisted men in English-speaking armies addressing > officers as > "sir" has the same purpose of acknowledging deference towards the > superior > caste.) > > The origin of the saluting gesture is obscure. I have read in several > sources that it originated when knights in armor had to raise the > visors of their > helmets in order to recognize each other, since the visors covered > their faces. > I doubt this explanation, since knights didn't ride around in public > with their > visors down (too difficult to breathe) . I didn't believe this one when I was a kid. Lifting a visor, as least as they are shown in the usual children's-book illustrations and judging by museum suits of armor, wouldn't show enough of a face to permit an ID, nor does it have anything to say about what happened when two knights met who were strangers to each other. Besides, if they knew each other, they wouldn't need to see face. If you can believe "Ivanhoe," it was heraldry that permitted the ID of a fully-caparisoned knight. > > What about policy 3)? Remember that the commander of an army can do > anything > he wishes, and is restrained ONLY by his personal social and ethical > code. > Wallenstein, for example, had a particularly low level of ethics. So > by the > beginning of the 18th century the custom arose that all officers were > to be > *gentlemen.* (Hence the phrase "an officer and a gentleman"). This > did not mean > that an officer had to be of superior social standing (although many > were from > the nobility, one reason being that an officer needs to be able to > read and > in many places only the nobility were literate.) Rather it meant that > the > officer adhered strictly to the "code of the gentleman", the most > important part > of which was that he kept his word no matter what. > > (You are commander of a town under siege and you surrender on a > promise from > the opposing commader to protect the civilian townspeople. It will be > a great > relief to you to know that the man you surrendered to is a gentleman, > because > his word is the only thing that protects your people from being raped > and > murdered.) > > - James A. Landau Very Interesting! -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 03:45:43 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Wendy, Good to see your post! Jon Wendalyn Nichols wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wendalyn Nichols Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From my Seattle youth in 1970s (transplanted at age 8 from a peripatetic military-base existence until then; parents from Montana and Ohio): Where all'd you go on vacation? Who all'd you see? What all'd you see? But not *When all'd you get back? *How all'd you get there? And we said "ollie ollie in come free." Wendalyn Nichols At 11:19 PM 7/30/04, you wrote: >Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in >alley, not Ollie.) > >At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >>think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >>"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >>be absolutely certain of any one. >>AM >>~~~~~~ >> >> >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said >> > >> >olly, olly oxen free >> > >> >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >> >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >> >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >> >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. >> > >> >dInIs >> > >> > >> > >> >>Page Stephens writes: >> >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >> >>southern Illinois?" >> >>~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> >>A. Murie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Dennis R. Preston >> >University Distinguished Professor >> >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> > Asian and African Languages >> >Wells Hall A-740 >> >Michigan State University >> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> >Office: (517) 353-0740 >> >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> >>A&M Murie >>N. Bangor NY >>sagehen at westelcom.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 03:47:30 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:47:30 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > > Wilson, > > When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did > in > southern Illinois? > > Page Stephens Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. The chant is: Last night, night before Twenty-four robbers at my door I opened the door I let them in I hit them in the head with a rolling pin All hid? The evidence is: In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night Before"! Coincidence? I think not. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 03:50:39 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:50:39 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Page Stephens > Subject: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when > you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it > makes > no sense. > > Well the other day I was watching a tv program about Clarence Birdseye > and > the invention of frozen foods on The History Channel, and an expert on > the > subject used the same word. > > Penny damned near fell out of her chair laughing and said something > like, > "And I thought you were the only person who was dumb enough to use that > word, but I guess I was wrong." > > Anyone else ever hear it used? > > Page Stephens > I've not only heard it, but I also use it. Your story reminds me of > the Vermont-born buddy of mine who informed me that there's no such > word as "a-loose," after tiring of hearing me use it. I was stunned to > see that WC agreed with him, since I've used "a-loose" since about 30 > seconds after I learned to talk. However, vengeance was mine. A couple > of hours later, as we were watching a college football game, we heard > the color man say something like, "Did you see the way that Smith > broke a-loose after Jones tried to tackle him?!" -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 04:19:15 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:19:15 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: FWIW, I "collected" a version of the "24 robbers" rhyme from a fellow grad student in 1974. He was from the piedmont of North Carolina. I will have to dig the rest of the (maybe six line) rhyme out from its hiding place, but it started this way: 'Tweren't last night, 'twas the night before; Four-and-twenty robbers came knockin' at the door. I'm quite sure it had nothing to do with what I grew up calling "hide-and-seek." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson, > > When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did > in > southern Illinois? > > Page Stephens Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. The chant is: Last night, night before Twenty-four robbers at my door I opened the door I let them in I hit them in the head with a rolling pin All hid? The evidence is: In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night Before"! Coincidence? I think not. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 31 04:17:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:17:13 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <59492226-E2A4-11D8-B61F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? Compare the nursery rhyme (?) popularized by Stephen King: Late last night, and the night before, Tommyknockers, tommyknockers, knocking at the door. [Incidentally, I suppose that this word "tommyknocker" is cognate with Swedish "tomte" (= gnome), as in "Jultomten" = "the Yule gnome", who knocks (?) and delivers "julklappar" = "Christmas presents" (basically "Yule knocks" or so, I suppose), according to my limited understanding of the subject. Can anybody confirm or refute my notion?] -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 04:56:11 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:56:11 -0400 Subject: Hide-and-seek (was [Damn! Forgot to supply subject!]) In-Reply-To: <200407302129.1bQLuU5NR3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Last night, night before >> Twenty-four robbers at my door >> I opened the door >> I let them in >> I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >> All hid? > > Compare the nursery rhyme (?) popularized by Stephen King: > > Late last night, and the night before, > Tommyknockers, tommyknockers, knocking at the door. Yes, I remember that, now that you mention it. -Wilson Gray > > [Incidentally, I suppose that this word "tommyknocker" is cognate with > Swedish "tomte" (= gnome), as in "Jultomten" = "the Yule gnome", who > knocks > (?) and delivers "julklappar" = "Christmas presents" (basically "Yule > knocks" or so, I suppose), according to my limited understanding of the > subject. Can anybody confirm or refute my notion?] > > -- Doug Wilson > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 05:17:11 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:17:11 -0400 Subject: Hide-and-seek ([was "Damn! Forgot to supply subject!]) In-Reply-To: <200407302129.1bQLuU2hu3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:19 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW, I "collected" a version of the "24 robbers" rhyme from a fellow > grad student in > 1974. He was from the piedmont of North Carolina. I will have to dig > the rest of the (maybe six line) rhyme out from its hiding place, but > it started this way: > > 'Tweren't last night, 'twas the night before; > Four-and-twenty robbers came knockin' at the door. This is really interesting! > > I'm quite sure it had nothing to do with what I grew up calling > "hide-and-seek." And if it has nothing to do with hide-and-seek, that's even more interesting. -Wilson Gray > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> >> Wilson, >> >> When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >> in >> southern Illinois? >> >> Page Stephens > > Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of > hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've > heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people from so many > different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications > that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of > course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till > the last person out was tagged or got home free. Some time in the > distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the > derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in > free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > > Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme > or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived > where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable > evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in > Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > > The chant is: > > Last night, night before > Twenty-four robbers at my door > I opened the door > I let them in > I hit them in the head with a rolling pin > All hid? > > The evidence is: > > In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a > spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was > formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental > entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the > flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night > Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Sat Jul 31 05:30:05 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:30:05 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois side note) Message-ID: I concur. Olly olly oxen free. And on a side note... SoILers (Egyptians?), what-all, or where-all, are you-all *including* as Southern Illinois? I only include the bottom 16 counties. -doug In a message dated 7/30/2004 4:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, preston at MSU.EDU writes: Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said olly, olly oxen free I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. dInIs -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Jul 31 14:03:05 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:03:05 +0100 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I may paraphrase an off-list mail to Tom Dalzell, 'had Wilson suggested that women don't use slang, nor apparently coin slang, at leasts to the extent that emn and do always have done' then I would essentially have agreed with him.' It was the idea that they might lack the intelligence to understand it that spurred my response. (BTW, Tom also notes thr work of Geneva Smitherman, Judi Sanders, Pam Munro, Louise Pound, Inez Cardozo-Freeman). I am a lexicographer, and I don't have the time or expertise to theorise, but it has always seemed to me that slang is the exemplar of what the feminist author Dale Spender defined, in her eponymously titled book (c. 1980) 'Man Made Language.' If anyone knows my Slang Down the Ages' ('Through...' in US) they will have seen this theory in greater taxonomic detail. One needs but look, for instance, at the themes that underpin the slang synonyms for 'penis' and vagina' to see the way in which the male point of view almost invariably dominates. Why this ishould be the case, I leave to others of greater skills to opine; but a check through the headword lists of any slang dictionary will make it abundantly clear that it _is_ the case. And while it may well be stereotyping, you will search hard amongst those lists for many terms pertaining to what are seen as 'feminine' attributes; caring, sharing, compassion, and the like. Jonathon Gree From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Jul 31 15:32:55 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:32:55 -0400 Subject: childhood rhymes In-Reply-To: <59492226-E2A4-11D8-B61F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my shoe," which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without grasping it or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: One, two, buckle my shoe Three, four, shut the door Five, six, pick up sticks Seven, eight, lay them straight Nine, ten, a big fat hen Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four twenty-four burglars came up to my door; I opened the door and let them in; I knocked them down with a rolling pin! At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Wilson, >> >>When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >>in >>southern Illinois? >> >>Page Stephens > >Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications >that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > >Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > >The chant is: > >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? > >The evidence is: > >In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > >-Wilson Gray From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jul 31 16:03:15 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:03:15 -0400 Subject: unthaw In-Reply-To: <20040731040138.6E4262287F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The prefix un- doesn't just mean 'negative'. It also has a meaning of 'release'. From OED online: un-, prefix[2] expressing reversal or deprivation sense [...] of freeing or releasing from something. I don't have the reference at hand, but I'm pretty sure Whorf wrote about this use as in "unravel" = "ravel" and several other examples that I can't recall. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 31 17:13:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:13:44 EDT Subject: From Rags to Riches (1903) Message-ID: "What do you have on rags to riches?" David Shulman asked me, by phone, a few hours ago. "OED has 1947.And get to the library early." It's been a hard work week.The air conditioning at work hasn't been fixed in five years. It was fixed a week ago, we had ONE DAY OF AIR, and then it broke again. Two judges walked out. The people with the parking tickets wondered why we're treated worse than animals at the Bronx zoo. And on Saturday, I have a day off, and I like to sleep late. And I don't particularly care about antedating OED anymore, since I they don't pay me and I have to go across town today to get it, and if I do something good it will have someone else's name on it. OK, I'm off to the NYPL. Bet Shulman has more poems. What a life. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 8 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30, 1903. p. 11 (1 page): _From Rags to Riches_, From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 17:59:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:59:59 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407301109.1bQBPf2LX3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > >>> As I've said here before, women don't >>> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>> nary nobody oblected!) >> >> In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >> culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Arnold, amazingly enough, now that I've had time to digest what you've said, lo! the sleeper wakes. I've long had the feeling that something was wrong with the idea that women and slang don't mix. Even though I truly believed this, I've always had the nagging feeling that it couldn't be correct. One obvious problem was that it would mean that women, in some undefined way, were essentially psychologically different from men, a concept that is, as in your admirable summation, preposterous. Naturally, I don't agree that every facet of what *you* have to say is necessarily correct, it has removed the scale from my eyes. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that what *I* had to say was wrong to the point of inanity. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 18:43:48 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:43:48 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois side note) In-Reply-To: <200407302230.1bQMrM1Ru3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 1:30 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois > side note) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I concur. Olly olly oxen free. > > And on a side note... SoILers (Egyptians?), what-all, or where-all, are > you-all *including* as Southern Illinois? I only include the bottom > 16 counties. > > > -doug Though I don't have a gazetteer sufficiently detailed that it shows counties, I can tell you that, judging from the familiar names of population centers that I recognize as being considered, by St. Louisans, at least, to be part of the "Greater Saint Louis Metropolitan Area," for me, "Southern Illinois" includes everything from Mattoon south, in general, and "Little Egypt," in particular. Judging by the scale of the map, "SI in general" probably covers more than 16 counties. -Wilson Gray > > In a message dated 7/30/2004 4:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, > preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > olly, olly oxen free > > I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > dInIs > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 19:14:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:14:33 -0700 Subject: childhood rhymes Message-ID: Neat, Beverly! I like the "12 Days of Xmas" influence. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: childhood rhymes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my shoe," which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without grasping it or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: One, two, buckle my shoe Three, four, shut the door Five, six, pick up sticks Seven, eight, lay them straight Nine, ten, a big fat hen Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four twenty-four burglars came up to my door; I opened the door and let them in; I knocked them down with a rolling pin! At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Wilson, >> >>When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >>in >>southern Illinois? >> >>Page Stephens > >Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications >that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > >Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > >The chant is: > >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? > >The evidence is: > >In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > >-Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 19:26:02 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:26:02 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407310658.1bQUnDTH3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > If I may paraphrase an off-list mail to Tom Dalzell, 'had Wilson > suggested > that women don't use slang, nor apparently coin slang, at leasts to the > extent that emn and do always have done' then I would essentially have > agreed with him.' It was the idea that they might lack the > intelligence > to understand it that spurred my response. Quite so. In fact, the realization that my sweeping generalization, as I stated it, carried the implication that women are, in some sense, intellectually "inferior" to men is what has finally persuaded me that what I said, though it *feels* right to me - probably only because I've believed it for half a century - can not actually *be* right. > (BTW, Tom also notes thr work > of Geneva Smitherman, Judi Sanders, Pam Munro, Louise Pound, Inez > Cardozo-Freeman). I am a lexicographer, and I don't have the time or > expertise to theorise, but it has always seemed to me that slang is the > exemplar of what the feminist author Dale Spender defined, in her > eponymously titled book (c. 1980) 'Man Made Language.' If anyone knows > my > Slang Down the Ages' ('Through...' in US) they will have seen this > theory > in greater taxonomic detail. One needs but look, for instance, at the > themes that underpin the slang synonyms for 'penis' and 'vagina' to > see the > way in which the male point of view almost invariably dominates. Why > this > ishould be the case, I leave to others of greater skills to opine; but > a > check through the headword lists of any slang dictionary will make it > abundantly clear that it _is_ the case. And while it may well be > stereotyping, you will search hard amongst those lists for many terms > pertaining to what are seen as 'feminine' attributes; caring, sharing, > compassion, and the like. This is the way that I *ought* to have expressed my thoughts. Thank you, Jonathon. -Wilson Gray > > Jonathon Green > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Jul 31 19:50:16 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:50:16 -0400 Subject: ..NYT and Disco Rice.. Message-ID: The New York Times for 31 JULY 2004 has a story titled "Disco Rice, and Other Trash Talk", by Ian Urbina. Basically, the story deals with the slang/jargon of garbage workers. Grant Barret is quoted in the story. The story is in the New York Region section of the paper. The following link may work for a few days, but you'll have to be registered to enter the site. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/31/nyregion/31trash.html George Cole Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Jul 31 19:52:31 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:52:31 -0400 Subject: ..NYT and Disco Rice.. Message-ID: Of course, my reference was to Grant Barrett. Apologies for the error. George Cole Shippensburg University From pds at VISI.COM Sat Jul 31 19:48:38 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:48:38 -0500 Subject: Blue Moon Message-ID: From the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune: Blue moon rises over Minnesota this weekend July 30, 2004 If it happens once in a blue moon, you might expect it on Saturday. That evening will bring the month's second full moon -- the currently accepted definition of a blue moon. July's other full moon was July 2. [Comment: This definition is accepted by people of my acquaintance who think about it at all; however, I believe that acceptance comes from its repitition by newspaper, TV, and radio weather reporters over the last several years. OED1, M-W3, and RHUD2 do not mention this definition. OED1's 1525 cite has 'moon is blewe' in a counterfactual context. M-W3 refers (1) to a long period of time with no reference to astronomical phenomena and (2) to the very rare occasions when the moon appears blue due to meteorological conditions. RHUD2 only mentions a non-astronomical, non-meteorolical long time usage, dating it from 1815-20. Nevertheless, the newswriter appears to have done some research, as the sequel reveals.] The last blue moon in these parts was on Halloween 2001; the next one will come June 30, 2007. Blue moon talk appears to go back several centuries. Throughout history, some huge natural cataclysms -- volcanoes and forest fires -- have thrown particles into the atmosphere that have actually made the moon appear blue. By the 1800s, the occasional occurrence known as a blue moon was the fourth full moon in a three-month season. But the term was transformed to mean the second full moon in a calendar month by an article in an astronomy magazine in 1946, the author of which later acknowledged having misinterpreted the earlier meaning. So far, he's had the last word. And under the old definition, there wouldn't be a blue moon this year. Bill McAuliffe ------------------- Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 20:22:14 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:22:14 -0400 Subject: childhood rhymes In-Reply-To: <200407310840.1bQVYf5lT3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: childhood rhymes > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my > shoe," > which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without > grasping it > or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: > > One, two, buckle my shoe > Three, four, shut the door > Five, six, pick up sticks > Seven, eight, lay them straight > Nine, ten, a big fat hen > Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] > Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting > Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing > Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting > Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty > Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, > dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two > Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four > twenty-four burglars came up to my door; > I opened the door and let them in; > I knocked them down with a rolling pin! *Very* interesting! I know "One, Two" only as literature. All the published versions that I've had read to me or have read for myself have ended at 20. Speaking of girls' games, is anyone else familiar with "One, Two, Three, O'Leary" and/or "Heel, Toe, Stomp, and Over"? These are the same game. "One, Two" is the white version and "Heel, Toe" is the black version. Back in the '40's in Saint Louis, this game was played by pre-adolescent girls. While playing the game, the girls chanted the words sing-song style, with both whites and blacks using the same tune. The game itself involved bouncing a ball, usually a tennis ball, in time with each syllable of the chant while, at the same time, performing the foot-and-leg actions described in the black version. At "O'Leary/and Over," the girl swung the leg of her choice over the ball as it rebounded from the sidewalk, repeating ad infinitum. Girls usually used this as a time-killer when they had nothing else to do. As a consequence, I can't remember ever seeing a girl play this who was other than expert at it, able to mix and match hands, feet, and legs at will. The chants had words beyond those supplied. Unfortunately, I was a pre-adolescent boy at the time and the game was as girly as hopscotch or jacks. So I paid no heed to the words beyond the opening line. "Oh. A girl." Mind goes blank, turns to thoughts of more boyly pursuits. -Wilson Gray > > > At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >>> Wilson, >>> >>> When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we >>> did >>> in >>> southern Illinois? >>> >>> Page Stephens >> >> Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >> hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >> heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >> different places and read it in so many different kinds of >> publications >> that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >> course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >> the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >> distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >> derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >> free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. >> >> Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >> or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >> where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >> evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >> Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. >> >> The chant is: >> >> Last night, night before >> Twenty-four robbers at my door >> I opened the door >> I let them in >> I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >> All hid? >> >> The evidence is: >> >> In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >> spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >> formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >> entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >> flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >> Before"! Coincidence? I think not. >> >> -Wilson Gray > From kebara at COMCAST.NET Thu Jul 1 01:03:45 2004 From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:03:45 -0700 Subject: Ms. [off topic] Message-ID: Page: I run a a couple of e-mail lists myself(one part time while the "real" moderator is unable to come to the computer), and my experience is, people use pseudonyms for a variety of reasons. In some situations, it's because they *have* been "flamed" when they use their real names. In other cases, some people are just plain "paranoid", and are afraid that if they use their real names they may be open to identity theft or worse. Then there are the people with hostile intent or those who who send spam. *They* don't use their real names, and they often change them so they can't be traced. Finally there are what is known in computer parlance as "netloons": people with genuine mental or emotional problems who may be hostile, "wacko", or just have some "weird" ideas they are ttrying to promote, but often do so in a disruptive way. The last two categories are, fortunately, not very common. The first two are more common, and if you know anything about the Interent, it's easy to see why. Anne G > For better or for worse everybody knows your and my name. I have never even > thought of disguising my name but thought better of it. > > If I make an ass of myself then so be it but I will make an ass of myself > above my signature. It won't be the first time nor the last time that I have > made an ass of myself. > > This brings up two topics for discussion on this list:. The first is why > anyone would choose to use a pseudonym on this list. > > The second is there any pattern to the use of pseudonyms online and do the > people who use them use different pseudonyms on other lists? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 1 02:43:37 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:43:37 -0400 Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote: > > (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.) If > > any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are > > inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a > > date of publication. > > The HDAS project would be happy to have it. After studying the Yale copy, it seems to me unlikely that a dating can be established for this book. The Yale catalog dating of "188-" seems probably too early. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 03:09:53 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:09:53 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake Message-ID: 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m. of work on a light Wednesday. I'm tired!! OT: see the fine article about my old crazy chess friend, Sam Sloan, in today's NEW YORK SUN, pg. 16. A similar article ran in NEW YORK PRESS about two years ago. He'll probably have the article on his web site soon. SHOCKED, SHOCKED: "Early American Newspapers, Second Quarter 2004." It'll be here within 60 minutes? -------------------------------------------------------------- GOD GULF GOD GULF--366 Google hits, 51 Google Groups hits "Republicans are the party of the faithful and Democrats the party of the secularists, goes the conventional wisdom. There is, according to Time magazine, a 'religion gap.' That's not exactly right, however. What exists is a church-attendance gap, not a religious gap or a 'God gulf.'" ---NEW YORK SUN, 30 June 2004, pg. 11, col. 2. All the "God Gulf" hits point to Nicholas Kristof in the November 2003 NEW YORK TIMES. (GOOGLE GROUPS) The Dems' Rearguard Action ... is the irreligious left, but as Nicholas Kristof points out, the latter group is much smaller: [America's] most striking cleavage is the God Gulf, and it ... alt.politics.bush - Nov 12, 2003 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article) (LEXIS-NEXIS) 1. THE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER, January 8, 2004, Thursday, FINAL, Pg. B6, 763 words, 'GOD GULF' REVVING UP RELIGIOUS WARFARE HOWARD DEAN'S GRASP FOR FAITH AS TASTELESS AS DICK CHENEY'S, NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Syndicated columnist 2. The New York Times, January 7, 2004 Wednesday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 21, 745 words, The God Gulf , By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF; E-mail: nicholas at nytimes.com 3. The New York Times, January 9, 2004 Friday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 18, 156 words, God, Country And the Politicians 4. The New York Times, January 9, 2004 Friday, Late Edition - Final , Section A; Column 6; Editorial Desk; Pg. 18, 152 words, God, Country And the Politicians 5. Alameda Times-Star (Alameda, CA), January 11, 2004 Sunday, OP-ED, 536 words 6. Chattanooga Times Free Press (Tennessee), January 8, 2004 Thursday, Times Editorial; Pg. B6, 746 words, Politics puts Jesus in the middle 7. Tampa Tribune (Florida), November 16, 2003, Sunday,, FINAL EDITION, Pg. 2, 670 words, More Faith-Conscious Voters Pose Problems For Democrats Tampa Tribune (Florida) November 16, 2003, Sunday, FINAL EDITION SECTION: COMMENTARY, Pg. 2 LENGTH: 670 words HEADLINE: More Faith-Conscious Voters Pose Problems For Democrats BODY: The situation has been building over the past decade, and there's something particularly troubling about it because such a polarization of attitudes toward public issues hasn't been seen in the United States for generations. In last Wednesday's New York Times, columnist Nicholas D. Kristof did an excellent job of setting out the problem: "A new report from the Pew Research Center says that America is more polarized now than at any time since its polling series began in 1987. Partly that's because it used to be just the Republicans who were intense in their beliefs, while now both sides are frothing." "The Most Striking Cleavage' We're not so sure it has come to "frothing," but certainly the disagreements between right and left are deepening. Kristof goes on to say: "The most striking cleavage is the God Gulf, and it should terrify the Democrats. Put simply, liberals are becoming more secular at a time when America is becoming increasingly religious, the consequence of a new Great Awakening. Americans, for example, are significantly more likely now than in 1987 to say they "completely agree' that "prayer is an important part of my daily life' and that "we all will be called before God on Judgment Day to answer for our sins.' (FACTIVA) (Same Kristof article--ed.) THOSE RUDE LIBERALS TO THE NATION'S DETRIMENT, THE LEFT HAS BECOME AS FURIOUSLY UNCIVIL AS THE RIGHT Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 13 November 2003, 754 words, NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF, (English) -------------------------------------------------------------- BRAT DIET BRAT DIET--11,400 Goolge Groups hits, 936 Google hits, BRAT + RICE + TOAST--3,460 Google hits, 728 Google Groups hit An ADS-L "lurker" kindly pointed this out. Thanks! Please! Eat a hot dog if you wish, but keep your appetite away from obnoxious children! (GOOGLE) Useful information about brat diet @ AGLANCE.COM ... BRAT stands for bananas, rice, apples and toast. These foods are mild, well-tolerated and good sources ... 6. Baby Connection -- Diarrhea (0-12 months) ... ... www.aglance.com/diets2/brat_diet.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages BRAT? Best foods for digestive health? ... Comments. I saw a post here that said BRAT (Bread, rice, applesauce, and toast) was the best food for stomach, colon, and intestinal health. ... www.diagnosishealth.com/_disc62/00000444.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages The Straits Times Interactive: Women - Health & Fitness ... can remember, doctors and nurses have suggested the BRAT diet for ... from diarrhoea to a diet of bananas, rice, applesauce and toast -- that does not ... straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/women/health29.html - 30k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: 18 month old with chronic diarrhea - help! We put each kid on the 'brat diet' (not my choice for ... but to the typical components of the "diet": Bananas, Rice, Applesauce, Tea (or is it Toast?) On the ... misc.kids - Sep 6, 1989 by joan.a.keegan - View Thread (10 articles) (FACTIVA) (71 hits for "brat diet") HEALTH TAB The Cutting Edge Doctors Stumble on The Essence of Brat Victor Cohn 208 words 17 January 1989 The Washington Post FINAL z05 English (Copyright 1989) One of the most common prescriptions for infant diarrhea is the "BRAT" diet: bananas, rice, applesauce and toast. But there's a lot of confusion about it among parents and physicians alike, according to a report in Pediatric News. Dr. Thomas Self of the University of California at San Diego asked 100 pediatricians and family doctors who said they prescribed the diet regularly what BRAT stood for. He asked them face-to-face, so they couldn't look it up. "A very high percentage," he said, "really didn't know what the letters stood for, with answers ranging from B stands for bratwurst to T stands for tea." Most, he added, also said it should be used for "a week or so," a vague recommendation that leads some parents to put an infant on this spare fare for days or weeks every time there's a loose bowel. The possible results: worse diarrhea and, worse still, serious undernutrition. Self told physicians: Know all about the patient before prescribing the diet. Use it for no more than two to five days, with careful supervision. Keep track of the number of times it has been used. -------------------------------------------------------------- RESERVATIONISTS I have reservations about ultra-expensive restaurants that require reservations, so I've never encountered a "reservationist." The OED citations really don't nail down what today's NEW YORK POST article describes. (OED) reservationist, n. (and a.) One who makes reservations (senses 3c and 4a). Also attrib. or as adj. 1920 Glasgow Herald 18 Mar. 9 The reservationist Senators are..too much attached to their limitations and qualifications to abandon them for anything. 1933 W. S. HOLT Treaties defeated by Senate x. 296 The reservationists did not constitute a majority. 1978 N.Y. Times 30 Mar. B20/1 (Advt.), Reservationist... 2 yrs ticketing exp. (FACTIVA, NEW YORK POST) DIS DU JOUR - EATERIES HAVE PLENTY OF SEATS, BUT NOT FOR YOU By STEVE CUOZZO Post restaurant critic 1,029 words 30 June 2004 New York Post 41 English (c) 2004 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. SO you wanna score a table at a hot new restaurant - before it gets reviewed and then trampled by the Zagat-toting rabble? Hah! Owners now make getting into their places hell even before they're known outside foodie circles. Zombie-voiced phone "reservationists" who practically demand your DNA are coming up with even worse ways to ruin your night out - like not bothering to tell anyone that you're coming. And if you suspect that not every trendy new place that tells you it's "fully committed" is actually full, you're not dreaming. New restaurants, especially in their first months, when they're trying to generate buzz, routinely make you come at 6 or 10 p.m. even though there are empty seats at 8. (...) (FACTIVA) FOOD HOLY SMOKE! GET A WHIFF OF THIS NEW TREND Joan Zoloth Special to The Washington Post 2,015 words 22 February 1995 The Washington Post FINAL E01 (...) It's become a badge of honor to get into this cigar dinner that is sold out in many of the Ritz-Carltons. Reservationists of the Ritz are fending off all manner of ingenious ploys to get into the sold-out event. People are claiming blood relations to the Ritz President, politicians, and the Pope. "Then there are those who downright beg or cry" says a Ritz Carlton spokesperson. (...) It's become a badge of honor to get into this cigar dinner that is sold out in many of the Ritz-Carltons. Reservationists of the Ritz are fending off all manner of ingenious ploys to get into the sold-out event. People are claiming blood relations to the Ritz President, politicians, and the Pope. "Then there are those who downright beg or cry" says a Ritz Carlton spokesperson. (...) -------------------------------------------------------------- ROCKET SHAKE I just dined at Westville (this one was on EAST 14th Street). It has a "rocket shake"--a vanilla shake with espresso. There aren't many Google hits for the name. (GOOGLE) (rocket + shake + vanilla + espresso) addyourown: Westville, West Village, Manhattan restaurants... definitely check out the 'rocket shake' for an instant lift: vanilla milkshake with a shot of espresso. Edit this review - add your own comments! View Changes. www.addyourown.com/restaurant. php?rest_id=72&cat_id=1&city_id=1 - 5k - Cached - Similar pages addyourown: Manhattan restaurants and reviews... the like. definitely check out the 'rocket shake' for an instant lift: vanilla milkshake with a shot of espresso. --- To change ... www.addyourown.com/tell.php?nbh_ id=18&venue_id=72&city_id=1&cat_id=1 - 9k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.addyourown.com ] With My Looks & Your Brains...... A Newport steak, fries, a rocket shake (vanilla shake with a shot of espresso dumped in), and the best fucking butterscotch pudding evar. ... domifanotherkid.blogspot.com/ 2003_10_26_domifanotherkid_archive.html - 45k - From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 1 03:15:00 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:15:00 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake In-Reply-To: <437C7FE4.12572935.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SHOCKED, SHOCKED: "Early American Newspapers, Second Quarter 2004." > It'll be here within 60 minutes? I saw a demonstration of EAN over the past weekend. As of now the content is very limited. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 03:53:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:53:09 -0400 Subject: Fripps (potato slices) Message-ID: "Sides and potatoes (all $6) included fantastic 'fripps,' tempura-battered potato slices dusted with sea salt and lemon zest,..." --NEW YORK SUN, 30 June 2004, pg. 21, col. 3, review of V Steakhouse, Time Warner Center, 10 Columbus Circle, 4th floor. Fripps? "Fripps" + "potato" resulted in only 41 Google hits, with just a few relevant and most for this "V Steakhouse." (GOOGLE) New York City - Restaurants and Dining... None of the potato dishes, such as the tempura- battered "fripps" ($6) or the potato and truffle croquettes ($6), were better than great hash browns; and the ... www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/dining/ ny-fdnotes3853944jun18,0,1863933.story?coll=nyc-diningout-headlines - 52k - Cached - Similar pages BCDS expands offerings with chic new caf? - The Heights ...... One item boasted as a signature Hillside creation is Fripps, the homemade potato chips made in the caf? by deep-frying pre-sliced potatoes. ... www.bcheights.com/news/2002/10/08/Features/ Bcds-Expands.Offerings.With.Chic.New.Caf-290969.shtml - 41k - Cached - Similar pages Annapolis MD and Anne Arundel county events by What's up Magazine ...... with chicken, beef, or seafood skewers, Kickin? Corn & Crab Soup, frog legs, three specialty salads, and the Tavern?s famous Fripps?potato fries spiced ... www.whatsupmag.com/aug03/BoatDining.shtml - 67k - Cached - Similar pages New York City Restaurant Openings - L'Asso - Gavroche - Bar Panini... V?s new ?fripps??ovals of baked potato fried in tempura batter with lemon zest?are splendid for sharing, and the buttery mashed potatoes give new ... www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/openings/9161/ - 52k - Cached - Similar pages Coach's Menu... Served on garlic toast with remoulade sauce. Potato Skins, $7.95. ... Served with a pickle and your choice of french fries, onion rings or fripps. ... www.coachsonline.com/menu.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages eGullet.com -> V Steakhouse... None of the various potato dishes, such as the tempura-battered ?fripps? ($6) or the potato and truffle croquettes ($6), were better than great hash browns ... forums.egullet.com/index. php?showtopic=45305&view=new - 77k - Cached - Similar pages This PASSPORT Takes You There!... They are a mixture of fusion and French influences, ranging from saut?ed foie gras with portabello mushrooms, to fripps made from potato skins in a tempura ... www.passportny.com/ - 24k - Cached - Similar pages AOL CityGuide: New York - Restaurants, Dining, Pizza, Mexican & ... ... plays with sides and condiments, offering items like "fripps," sliced potatoes in a light tempura batter with sea salt and lemon zest, potato croquettes, a ... www.digitalcity.com/newyork/ dining/venue.adp?sbid=130931 - 33k - Cached - Similar pages (FACTIVA) Food WORD OF MOUTH Rookie's grills up yummy burgers SUE GLEITER Of the Patriot-News 650 words 5 June 2002 The Harrisburg Patriot FINAL E01 (...) All burgers are served with fripps, a fried potato chip. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 1 04:25:05 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:25:05 -0700 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: <200406300446.1bFDxY4Zr3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: >...Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage >manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't >matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual >prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the >risk of ambiguity). I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." Rima From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jul 1 12:25:27 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:25:27 -0400 Subject: God Gulf (2003); BRAT diet (1989); Reservationists (1995); Rocket Shake Message-ID: From: Bapopik at AOL.COM The following was in a quote describing the "God gulf": : "The Most Striking Cleavage' Please tell me i'm not entirely alone in being confused by getting entirely the *wrong* first reading from this heading. (Looking at it a bit more, i see a third reading. Now a fourth. Now a...) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 1 13:07:31 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:07:31 -0400 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is >clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: > >"I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." LOL! Bethany From orinkh at CARR.ORG Thu Jul 1 13:34:40 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:34:40 -0400 Subject: facilitation Message-ID: This isn?t strictly an American dialect question but I know there are some Brit and some legal minds on the list, so I?ll give it a try: a BBC news story today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/3854207.stm) notes that some individuals have been charged with ?conspiracy to commit facilitation? in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising tide in Morecambe Bay. (1) What is ?facilitation?? (2) Is it a new designation in English law? I don?t find it treated in dictionaries. (3) What?s the US equivalent, if there is one? Many thanks, Orin Hargraves From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Jul 1 13:56:57 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:56:57 +0100 Subject: facilitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:34 am -0400 Orin Hargraves wrote: ... > notes that some individuals have been charged with ?conspiracy to commit > facilitation? in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising > tide in Morecambe Bay. > > (1) What is ?facilitation?? It's to do with human trafficking: 'facilitation of unauthorised entry and residence'. See: The laws seem to be EU rather than UK in origin... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Jul 1 17:06:24 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:06:24 -0600 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On June 30, 2004 10:25 PM, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > > >...Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have > seen in usage > >manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are > optional, and it doesn't > >matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though > the Chicago Manual > >prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason > being to avoid the > >risk of ambiguity). > > I remember being taught to put in a comma before the "and." This is > clearly demonstrated in the wonderful quote: > > "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." > > Rima A great quote and a perfect illustration of the point! Where is it from -- or did you make it up? Standard lexicographical practice is to use a comma before 'and' in a list, for exactly the reason given in the Chicago Manual and exemplified by Rima's quote. Victoria P.S. Happy Canada Day to Canadians on the list. Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 1 21:53:39 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:53:39 -0700 Subject: Periods after abbreviations In-Reply-To: <200407011000.1bG4V15Cq3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >.> "I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God." >> >A great quote and a perfect illustration of the point! Where is it >from -- or did you make it up? Forthe life of me, I can never remember who said it - but I only get credit for remembering the quote itself. Rima From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 1 23:04:47 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:04:47 -0700 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <001701c45f07$429690b0$d6251318@kebara1jab3pmh> Message-ID: In defense of the anonymous e-mailer who's been getting some barbs for using a "pseudonym": The screen name "LJT777 at AOL.COM" doesn't look like a pseudonym to me. Rather, it looks like one of those computer-generated screen names that AOL and CompuServe suggest when you first sign up for their service. You can either accept the default name or try one of your own, which may or may not be accepted, depending on whether another AOL (in this case) subscriber has already taken it. It can take several tries to find a name that's available. Some people may just take the line of least resistance and accept the default. (In that case, of course, it's good netiquette to give your actual name somewhere in the body of your message.) Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From LJT777 at AOL.COM Thu Jul 1 23:39:43 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:39:43 EDT Subject: Ms. [off topic] Message-ID: I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was careless of me not to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS listserv for years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my intention, you may be sure. Lindsie Jordan Tucker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 00:09:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:09:51 -0400 Subject: Gurgitator (2002) Message-ID: GURGITATOR--108 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits An article in the Thursday Now section of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS is: "Hot Dog! Coney contest is first bite in the stuff-your-face season." Pg. 40, col. 2: "In 1997, he (George Shea--ed.) co-founded the International Federation of Competitive Eating with an eye toward becoming the official governing body for 'gurgitators' worldwide." It looks like Shea coined or popularized the word in this context. (There are earlier computer hits.) If this thing gets big enough, maybe they'll hold events like this in a Shea Stadium? OT, "GURGITATOR" COMPETITIONS I WANT TO SEE: Eric "Badlands" Booker vs. the Olsen Twins. (GOOGLE) International Federation of Competitive Eating - TEAM IFOCE ... ... TEAM IFOCE OFFICIAL STORE : The Gurgitator Quantity: GURGITATOR - 2002 Weight: 1.0 lbs List Price: $16.95 Get the latest news ... www.ifoce.bigstep.com/item.html?PRID=1146773 - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Recordnet.com ... champion will be crowned. The most famous gurgitator will be Ed "Cookie" Jarvis, who will fly in from Long Island, NY. Jarvis is world ... www.recordnet.com/daily/specials/ asparagus2004/articles/8asp.php - 58k - Cached - Similar pages CNN.com - Transcripts ... And check this out, Fredricka. Actually a magazine called the "Gurgitator." An international federation of competitive eating magazine. ... www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/04/lt.25.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages 1. Definitions ... 1. Definitions 1. Gurgitation 2. Gurgitator 3. Warden/Gamekeeper 4. Gurgitation Quotient 5. Victor 6. Pecking Order (gate number?) 7. Pecking Number 8. etc 2 ... gorge.internev.com/rules.htm - 17k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages Adventure ... I kept my eyes peeled for "Hungry" Charles Hardy, the two-time American hotdog eating champion and marquee gurgitator at the Snackdown. ... www.thesquaretable.com/fall02/ifoce.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages Bakersfield's Underground Newspaper | The Blackboard ... normal activity. For those opposed to any sort of physical activity, new ?Gurgitator? over-eating sports will emerge. The ?Food ... blackboard3.home.att.net/may04/articles6.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages CNS: February 16, 2004: Big bellies are out for competitive eaters ... By Joelle Farrell. PHOTO: Sarah Burge Eric Booker, 33, a competitive eater, or "gurgitator," nibbles at a Carnegie Deli sandwich. ... www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-02-16/444.asp - 12k - Cached - Similar pages Sonya Thomas is: "THE BLACK WIDOW" ... As I asserted before, Kobayashi is the most elite gurgitator the world has ever known. I feel honored just to be on the same stage as him. ... www.sonyatheblackwidow.com/ - 13k - Jun 29, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Japanese oogui ... Compared to many of his fellow "gurgitators", Kobayashi is not just thin, he is downright skeletal, weighing in at a mere 51.3kg. ... fj.life.in-japan - Jul 4, 2002 by Brett Robson - View Thread (7 articles) Good Food, Good Treats, Good Golly, Let's Eat! ... around the world, six of them women, who compete in its events and are sometimes featured in its quarterly newsletter called "The Gurgitator." Most American ... alt.bad.clams - Aug 15, 2002 by Frankenclam - View Thread (1 article) (FACTIVA) NATION Fox's 'Glutton Bowl' lures 'gurgitators' with $25k prize ; 'A good eater is a good athlete,' says international body Jennifer Harper, THE WASHINGTON TIMES 654 words 18 February 2002 The Washington Times A09 English (Copyright 2002) It is a consuming passion: They eat for sport, chomping and chewing while audiences howl, judges watch for style and bystanders - well, they stand back. Chicken wings, matzo balls, pickled quail eggs, cannoli, hot dogs, jalapenos, sushi, pancakes, oysters, mince pie - it's all fair game to competitive eaters who have their own federation, regulations, world records and yes, competitive eat meets where less is definitely not more and the best professional gurgitator wins. "It's not about gluttony. It's about competitive eating. This is a sport. We train, we compete, we have strategies and disciplines," said George Shea, chairman of the New York-based International Federation of Competitive Eating (IFOCE). "And it's global - America, Russia, Thailand, Canada, England, Scotland, Germany," Mr. Shea said. "This is a sport of the everyman, because every man can understand it. A good eater is a good athlete." America gets its first real taste of competitive eating when Fox broadcasts "The Glutton Bowl" on Thursday, a two-hour special that features 40 contestants competing for $25,000 "in a challenge to see how much or how fast they can consume," according to the network. The qualifying round alone features mayonnaise, beef tongue and butter, among other things. Fox plans a surprise delicacy for the finale, which they promise is "not for the faint of heart or weak of stomach." In March, the Discovery Channel will explore mega-eating phenomena in a documentary called "Gut Busters." But it's not quite as crass as all that, Mr. Shea insists. An IFOCE mandate specifies safety and age regulations, careful record- keeping and uniform procedures for those moments when one man will consume 21/2 pounds of mince pie in 30 seconds. That feat was accomplished by England's Peter Dowsewell two years ago, and it still stands as a world's record. There are points for "neat eating," a newsletter called "The Gurgitator" and official T-shirts which read "Nothing in Moderation" and come in sizes up to XXXXL. Competitors share training methods - like learning to stretch their stomachs by drinking a gallon of water at one sitting. The IFOCE also finds sponsors for sanctioned tournaments year- round. Come November, the group plans a competition that will feature an entire Thanksgiving dinner. A short history at the group's Web site (www.ifoce.com) maintains that competitive eating has been around since prehistoric times, and while American eaters dominated the early 20th century, the Japanese now set "record after record before stunned crowds." (...) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 00:34:58 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:34:58 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: ------------- Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you money in the long run, mmmkay? ------------- i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as well as a question marker? there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for "ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" (though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant "mmmkay?"). let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, mmmkay? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 00:53:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:53:29 -0400 Subject: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (1973) Message-ID: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE + EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE--9,920 Google hits, 26,000 Google Groups hits ? ? ? ? Fred Shapiro probably already has this, but here goes. ? It refers to Martians or Al Qaeda or Iraq (weapons of mass destruction). ? ? (GOOGLE) ???the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.??? ... Al Qaeda or has resumed production of chemical or biological agents, Rumsfeld insists that ???the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.??? But there ... soc.culture.vietnamese - Mar 27, 2003 by :)) - View Thread (1 article) ? ? (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment Absence of evidence != evidence of absence. Actually, absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence. It isn't, and can never be, proof ... net.physics - Aug 10, 1986 by Patrick M Juola - View Thread (49 articles) Re: More Atheistic Wishful Thinking ... As for "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" (Haldane). The only proper conclusion is that you can draw no conclusion. ... net.philosophy - Sep 28, 1985 by Rich Rosen - View Thread (47 articles) Re: More Theistic Wishful Thinking ... Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but if you carry that to its logical conclusion, you must believe in everything. ... net.philosophy - Sep 22, 1985 by Rich Rosen - View Thread (1 article) Re: instability in Berkeley versus AT&T releases ... the point that proves the argument. Bull. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you mean that the "uptime" listing ... net.micro.att - Jul 26, 1985 by Guy Harris - View Thread (50 articles) Re: science and belief This ``absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'' bit: I think that it is only one way of stating that it is not possible (in the general case) to prove ... net.sci - Jul 29, 1984 by Laura Creighton - View Thread (4 articles) ? ? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ? Frederick Post ? Saturday, January 13, 2001 Frederick, Maryland ? ? ...old archaeological maxim, "ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE.....Egyptian pharaohs. One major piece OF EVIDENCE has a disputed date, but.. ? ? ? Advocate ? Monday, June 21, 1976 Newark, Ohio ? ? ...as one scientist put it, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE should not be taken as EVIDENCE.....OF ABSENCE. And so it will go, one at a.. Pg. 10, col. 4: ? These tests could indicate whether there are living things in the Martian soil although, as one scientist put it, "the absence of evidence should not be taken as evidence of absence." ? ? ? Frederick Post ? Wednesday, October 05, 1994 Frederick, Maryland ? ? ...first place. In science, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE in.....all OF the biologic and genetic EVIDENCE strongly indicates that humans.. ? ? ? News ? Wednesday, October 05, 1994 Frederick, Maryland ? ? ...first place. In science, ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is not EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE in.....all OF the biologic and genetic EVIDENCE strongly indicates that humans.. ? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("absence of evidence" + "evidence of absence") ? 1. Tests to Seek Life on Mars Begin; Tests to Seek Life on Mars Start With 'Sniffing' of Atmosphere By WALTER SULLIVAN Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 25, 1976. p. 1 (2 pages) Pg. 28, col. 5: ? Some project scientists emphasize that the experiments are not capable of indentifying all possible forms of biological activity of the British astrophysicist, Martin Rees, that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." ? ? ? ? ? 2. The Great Harvard-Stanford M.B.A. War By Theodore Levitt. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 9, 1978. p. A31 (1 page) ? ? ? 3. EXPERTS FIND POLLS INFLUENCE ACTIVISTS; They Say Most Powerful Effect Is on Potential Contributors and Other Shapers of Opinion Impact on the Electorate Shift in Final Week Polls as Campaign Issue Filling Ford's House Seat By E.J. DIONNE. New York Times (1857-Current. May 4, 1980. p. 26 (1 page) ? ? ? ? 4. OUT POSTS; THE UNIVERSE Seeing Life in the Cosmic Haystack The Voice of Hydrogen Searching and Sweeping Leaking the Message Moments in Time Lawrence Fagg. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1988. p. C3 (1 page) ? ? ? 5. Giving the U.F.O. Group A Shot at Persuasion By CHRISTOPHER LEHMANN-HAUPT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1995. p. C14 (1 page) ? ? ? 6. Simpson Prosecutor Tries to Counter an Expert's Testimony By DAVID MARGOLICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 29, 1995. p. A13 (1 page) ? ? ? 7. Excerpts From Final Rebuttal Arguments by Prosecutors in Simpson Case New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 30, 1995. p. 8 (1 page) ? ? ? ? 8. The Triumph of Liberalism; The triumph of what? If the Democrats sound like Republicans, it's not because the Democrats abandoned the liberal agenda. It's because the Republicans absorbed it. By Roger Rosenblatt. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1996. p. SM33 (3 pages) ? ? ? 9. Books in Brief; NONFICTION FICTION & POETRY PAUL A. WEISSMANCAROL PEACE ROBINSERIC P. NASHMINDY ALOFFPHILIP GAMBONEDAVID KIRBYJONATHON KEATSALLEN LINCOLN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 30, 2000. p. BR16 (2 pages) ? ? ? (JSTOR) The Maunder Minimum John A. Eddy Science, New Series, Vol. 192, No. 4245. (Jun. 18, 1976), pp. 1189-1202. Pg. 1191: ? But in the words of a modern astronomer, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (26). Pg. 1201: ? 26. Attributed to M. J. Rees, in _Project Cyclops_, J. Billingham, Ed. (NASA publication CR 114445, Stanford/NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., 1973), pg. 3, From chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 2 00:46:21 2004 From: chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:46:21 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <20040702003459.687AD3823E2@rapid.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: I haven't studied this at all, but I have watched South Park. Mmmkay was sort of a signature phrase of one of the characters (Mr. Mackey), who ended most, if not all, sentences with it. FWIW. Larissa You said.... ++From: Arnold M. Zwicky ++ ++------------- ++Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you ++money in the long run, mmmkay? ++------------- ++ ++i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial ++prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some ++speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as ++well as a question marker? ++ ++there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for ++"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some ++even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" ++(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant ++"mmmkay?"). ++ ++let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, ++mmmkay? ++ ++arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 2 01:03:35 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:03:35 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >arnold, >I can't remember the South Park teacher's name (he with a friend >named Mr. Hat I believe, although in the episode I saw last night he >was unfaithful to Mr. Hat with Mr. Stick), but he tags nearly half >of his uterances with "mmmmmkay." The effect is striking and is >clearly a part of his "characterization." dInIs >from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: > >------------- >Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you >money in the long run, mmmkay? >------------- > >i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial >prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some >speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as >well as a question marker? > >there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for >"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some >even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" >(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant >"mmmkay?"). > >let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, >mmmkay? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 01:29:44 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:29:44 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larissa H. Chen" > I haven't studied this at all, but I have watched South Park. Mmmkay > was sort of a signature phrase of one of the characters (Mr. Mackey), > who ended most, if not all, sentences with it. > > FWIW. > > Larissa > My kids(13 and 17) agree with the South Park/Mr. Mackey origin. But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was the genesis of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series history" in the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history Of course, Barry will no doubt find it in the 19th Century. :) There is a usenet posting on 1 Feb. 1993 for "MMkay" used in the sense that we're talking about. I think that predates the actual South Park series. Sam Clements From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 2 01:56:43 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:43 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <003601c45fd4$0e35aa40$7223a618@sam> Message-ID: > But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was > the genesis > of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series > history" in the following link: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history The 1991 short is "The Spirit of Christmas." Hilarious. But the character of Mr. Mackay isn't in it and no one says "mmmkay". It's Parker and Stone, by the way. The term is glossed as "m'kay" in "Among The New Words" in American Speech, 75/3, Fall 2000. Glowka, et. al., incorrectly (in my opinion) gloss it as a euphemism for fuck, "with a joke on people using the exclamation to mean OK." This is based on a single usage in the movie "South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut". This usage is in a song sung by Mr. Mackay, the lyric which goes, "'Cause 'fuck' is the worst word that you can say, / So just use the word 'm'kay'!" While this one use does match, the gloss ignores all the other times when the term is used by Mackay on the series. The joke is about Mackay's use of the word for OK, not as a code word for the expletive. This is a nonce usage for Mackay. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 02:29:04 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:29:04 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" Subject: Re: mmmkay? and its kin > > But, since Parker and Davis made a short film in 1991 which was > > the genesis > > of the later series, someone should look at that film. Read the "Series > > history" in the following link: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park#Series_history > > The 1991 short is "The Spirit of Christmas." Hilarious. But the character of > Mr. Mackay isn't in it and no one says "mmmkay". > > It's Parker and Stone, by the way. Right. Parker/Davis were running in the first election in which I voted. :) Sam Clements From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 2 03:33:08 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:33:08 -0400 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <157.38e0dc74.2e15fabf@aol.com> Message-ID: LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about >whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was >careless of me not >to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so >aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS >listserv for >years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie >Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my >intention, you may be >sure. > >Lindsie Jordan Tucker Don't worry about it! You've just run into a cultural difference. In other internet venues such as newsgroups, I've been told that I'm crazy to use my real name and email address; doesn't stop me... -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 2 11:48:10 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:48:10 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, My bad. It's the counselor (Mr. Markey?), not Mr. Garrison (the teacher with the hand puppets), as my viewing of Cartman unwillingly giving up a kidney for Stan revealed last night. dInIs >>arnold, > >>I can't remember the South Park teacher's name (he with a friend >>named Mr. Hat I believe, although in the episode I saw last night he >>was unfaithful to Mr. Hat with Mr. Stick), but he tags nearly half >>of his uterances with "mmmmmkay." The effect is striking and is >>clearly a part of his "characterization." > > >dInIs > > > > >>from Genre magazine, August 2004, p.30, article on digital cameras: >> >>------------- >>Finally, cameras that use rechargeable batteries will lkely save you >>money in the long run, mmmkay? >>------------- >> >>i'm familiar with "ok?" (or even "ok!") produced with an initial >>prenasalized velar stop. does this have a labial component for some >>speakers? a *prolonged* one? can it be used as an agreement marker as >>well as a question marker? >> >>there are a few "nkay?" web hits on google, no relevant ones for >>"ngkay?", but large numbers for "mkay?", "mmkay?", "mmmkay?", and some >>even for "mmmmkay?", "mmmmmkay?", "mmmmmmkay?", and "mmmmmmmkay?" >>(though once you get past three m's, google asks if you meant >>"mmmkay?"). >> >>let me know if anyone's studied the phonetics and/or pragmatics here, >>mmmkay? >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jul 2 13:11:35 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:11:35 -0400 Subject: "Absence od evidence is not evidence of absence" (1969) Message-ID: W.F. Grimes, _The Excavation of Roman and Mediaeval London_, reviewed by A.R. Burn, The Classical Review 19.2 (Jun. 1969) 321: "....even while remembering the important fact that absence of evidence is not identical with evidence of absence,...." Prof. Kenneth Kitchen of Liverpool has been using the phrase for some years, and may predate the above. A similar thought appears, e.g., in Kitchen's _Ancient Orient and Old Testament_ (London, 1966) p. 31-32: "It must always be remembered that such absence of evidence/ in these fields of study too often merely reflects the large gaps in our present-day knowledge." Stephen Goranson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 2 13:36:27 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:36:27 -0400 Subject: facilitation Message-ID: Here's the definition from Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004): "The act or an instance of aiding or helping; esp., in criminal law, the act of making it easier for another person to commit a crime." Some states make facilitation a crime (well, all do, really, but they don't all call it that), with various degrees according to the facilitator's level of culpability. In other states, the facilitator may be charged with aiding and abetting, or as an accessory or accomplice to the crime. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Orin Hargraves Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:35 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: facilitation This isn't strictly an American dialect question but I know there are some Brit and some legal minds on the list, so I'll give it a try: a BBC news story today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/3854207.stm) notes that some individuals have been charged with "conspiracy to commit facilitation" in the recent deaths of some cocklers trapped by the rising tide in Morecambe Bay. (1) What is "facilitation"? (2) Is it a new designation in English law? I don't find it treated in dictionaries. (3) What's the US equivalent, if there is one? Many thanks, Orin Hargraves From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:13:54 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:13:54 -0500 Subject: (OT): Request for translation service Message-ID: Occasionally I receive requests to have documents translated into various European languages. I remember that a few ads-l members do such translations professionally but forget just who they are. I'd be grateful if one or two of the translators would write to me off-line. It would be helpful to have their names and e-mail addresses handy the next time I receive a translating request. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian University of Missouri-Rolla From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:58:30 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:58:30 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it Message-ID: Some time ago Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik posted messages regarding the expression "to make a federal case" out of something = to make a big issue out of something trivial. The end result was several citations found by Barry from 1951. I had thought that I had posted a message at the time suggesting that the expression might allude to the Mann Act, passed in the mid 1910s, making it a federal offense to bring a woman across a state line for the purpose of fornication. Modestly, I acknowledged that the only barrier between this insight and its general acceptance was the lack of any evidence to support it. I don't find my message in the archives through a search for postings on "federal case", though. Here is a slight antedating from the Proquest Washington Post of the expression in its figurative sense: "I'm not trying to make a Federal case of it, but Mi Scandal and Petty Larceny won the two chief races on the Friday program" [The lead to an article on the horseraces at the Charles Town track.] Washington Post, December 30, 1950, p. 11. Here is an interesting use of the expression, apparently with reference to the Mann Act, from 15 years earlier, found in Proquest's Chicago Tribune files. The context is an elopement from Colorado to Chicago by a 21 year old rodeo cowboy and a 16 year old girl. Quoting a message from the Sheriff of Sterling Colorado to the Chicago police: "Please arrest and hold these parties, as the girl's folks are about crazy. If there is no law to hold Bartlett on we'll make a federal case of it." Chicago Tribune, May 22, 1936, p. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 2 15:58:04 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:58:04 -0700 Subject: Federal nugget Message-ID: Is there anybody out there who collects federalese? I just learned that the Health Resources and Services Administration of HHS has a "Division of Independent Review Objective Review Committee." I don't think this has anything to do with the "Federalwide Assurance," or FWA, though this also exists. Of course, as another federal document I came across several years ago was at pains to point out, "this information is provided for information only." Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 16:01:07 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:01:07 EDT Subject: BRAT diet (1989) Message-ID: In a message dated Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:09:53 -0400, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (pseudonym for Barry Popik) writes: > The Cutting Edge > Doctors Stumble on The Essence of Brat > Victor Cohn 208 words 17 January 1989 The Washington Post > (Copyright 1989) > > One of the most common prescriptions for infant diarrhea is the "BRAT" diet: > bananas, rice, applesauce and toast. But there's a lot of confusion about it > among parents and physicians alike, according to a report in Pediatric News. > > Dr. Thomas Self of the University of California at San Diego asked 100 > pediatricians and family doctors who said they prescribed the diet regularly > what BRAT stood for. He asked them face-to-face, so they couldn't look it up. > "A very high percentage," he said, "really didn't know what the letters stood > for, with answers ranging from B stands for bratwurst to T stands for tea." > > Most, he added, also said it should be used for "a week or so," a vague > recommendation that leads some parents to put an infant on this spare fare > for days or weeks every time there's a loose bowel. The possible results: > worse diarrhea and, worse still, serious undernutrition. > > Self told physicians: Know all about the patient before prescribing the diet. > Use it for no more than two to five days, with careful supervision. Keep > track of the number of times it has been used. My wife, who is a registered nurse, has used the expression "BRAT diet" (meaning bananas, rice, appleSAUCE, and toast) for as long as I have known her, which would be 1979. She says she does not remember when she first heard the term; it may have been from her mother. I checked some of her old nursing texts; the term does not appear in them. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 2 16:07:37 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:07:37 EDT Subject: Periods after abbreviations Message-ID: In a message dated 6/30/04 12:02:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should > > not have a period. > > I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism, it never > > occurred to me that it was meant to be serious. > > what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism? Perhaps this old riddle will help your understanding: Q: Why is the little red schoolhouse red? A: If you had six periods a day, you'd be red, too! - Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:50:49 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:50:49 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 4:48 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote, about South Park: > My bad. It's the counselor (Mr. Markey?), not Mr. Garrison (the > teacher with the hand puppets), as my viewing of Cartman unwillingly > giving up a kidney for Stan revealed last night. so there seems to be a general feeling that South Park was an, if not the, agent of spread. but was the bilabial version an invention of the writers, or were they merely exaggerating a feature already in use? the velar version goes back way before South Park. it was one of the things that struck geoff pullum about american english, on his first visit to the u.s., exactly thirty years ago. i had noticed it years before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't realized that it was a specifically american thing. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) ' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 2 16:56:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:56:37 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 9:50 AM, i wrote: > ... i had noticed it years > before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't > realized that it was a specifically american thing. i believe that this is one case where we can't blame canada. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Jul 2 16:52:57 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:52:57 -0400 Subject: BRAT diet (1989) Message-ID: > >My wife, who is a registered nurse, has used the expression "BRAT diet" >(meaning bananas, rice, appleSAUCE, and toast) for as long as I have known her, >which would be 1979. She says she does not remember when she first heard the >term; it may have been from her mother. I checked some of her old nursing texts; >the term does not appear in them. > > - James A. Landau I first heard the term when I was in the Peace Corps (Morocco, 1980), where it was recommended as therapy for diarrhea; we were told it was "bananas, rice, apples, and tea." Orin Hargraves From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 2 23:50:23 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:50:23 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it In-Reply-To: <1ac92e51acef81.1acef811ac92e5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Here's another early example ... maybe just a literal use of "federal case" though. ---------- _Nevada State Journal_ (Reno NV), 20 May 1935: p. 4, col. 2: <> ---------- The ACLU wanted to bring charges in Federal court because the abductees were supposedly taken into an Indian reservation. -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 2 23:53:30 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:53:30 -0400 Subject: making a federal case of it Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has two 1948 cites for the phrase as a euphemism. Both are by Walter Winchell; May and Dec. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:58 AM Subject: making a federal case of it > Some time ago Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik posted messages regarding the expression "to make a federal case" out of something = to make a big issue out of something trivial. The end result was several citations found by Barry from 1951. I had thought that I had posted a message at the time suggesting that the expression might allude to the Mann Act, passed in the mid 1910s, making it a federal offense to bring a woman across a state line for the purpose of fornication. Modestly, I acknowledged that the only barrier between this insight and its general acceptance was the lack of any evidence to support it. I don't find my message in the archives through a search for postings on "federal case", though. > > Here is a slight antedating from the Proquest Washington Post of the expression in its figurative sense: > "I'm not trying to make a Federal case of it, but Mi Scandal and Petty Larceny won the two chief races on the Friday program" [The lead to an article on the horseraces at the Charles Town track.] Washington Post, December 30, 1950, p. 11. > > Here is an interesting use of the expression, apparently with reference to the Mann Act, from 15 years earlier, found in Proquest's Chicago Tribune files. The context is an elopement from Colorado to Chicago by a 21 year old rodeo cowboy and a 16 year old girl. Quoting a message from the Sheriff of Sterling Colorado to the Chicago police: > "Please arrest and hold these parties, as the girl's folks are about crazy. If there is no law to hold Bartlett on we'll make a federal case of it." Chicago Tribune, May 22, 1936, p. 1 > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jul 3 00:00:56 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:00:56 -0400 Subject: fluxuation Message-ID: Found on newspaperarchive.com fluxuation (1916). Google News returns 0 (zero) Google 2,470 dictionaries ... 0 (zero?) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 00:07:37 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:07:37 -0700 Subject: Newspeak Message-ID: a grad student, laboring away at an annotated bibliography of truncated yes-no questions for me, has pointed me to a very full handout for a GLOW 2003 paper ("Deletion through Movement") by justin fitzpatrick (of MIT), which has the following intriguing first footnote: As will all linguistic data, the judgments reported here hold only for some (I-)languages. These examples may be perfectly grammatical in other languages commonly called "dialects" of English. ------------- i certainly agree that every variety -- "dialect", if you will -- ought to be treated as a language on its own, but this way of talking really won't do, because it fails to say that the varieties in question have something to do with "English". after all, there are billions of I-languages around (many of them in china) in which fitzpatrick's first two negative judgments (recast in form here) hold: *Someone go tomorrow. 'Someone will go tomorrow.' *Someone been in my office. 'Someone has been in my office.' in any case, dialectologists, you now know how to talk about "dialects" in Newspeak. and, as tom wasow pointed out to me, you now see where "Chomsky's repeated claim that the everyday notion of a language (like English) is incoherent" can lead you. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 00:24:17 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:24:17 -0700 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: <40E22BBE.4010405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2004, at 7:55 PM, Wilson Gray notes the following phenomenon: > There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce > a > given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to > their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their > idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its > standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic > pronunciation. E.g. > > A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? > B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"? > A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"! > I say "street"! > B. Oh. Okay. My bad. > A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? the generalization is that, in a great many settings, people tend to believe that they say what they think they're supposed to say. it's a species of earnest self-delusion. so wilson's example is a lot like people's insisting that they never "drop their g's" -- and then, of course, do so as soon as their attention is focused elsewhere. some years back we had a discussion here about r-omission by otherwise rful speakers, and i noted that lots of people, a fair amount of the time, didn't have an r in the first syllable of "quarter". as the discussion went on, people who protested that they'd never heard of such a thing, etc. suddenly caught *themselves* saying "quater" (exactly the response i had when my first linguistics teacher, the classicist samuel atkins of princeton, pointed out that this was my usual pronunciation). more recently I've had a certain number of excellent writers (like louis menand) and linguists (like larry trask) and authorities on writing claim to me that they never used possessive antecedents for pronouns, though in fact they did, they did. one of those things that can make self-reports, including acceptability judgments, perilous. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 3 03:42:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:42:26 EDT Subject: Hipsterati; "De-Lovely" review; Where Now?: Jim Crotty Message-ID: OT: "DE-LOVELY" REVIEW DE-LOVELY is a new movie about Cole Porter, starring Kevin Kline and my beautiful wife Ashley Judd. Say that you're a reviewer and that you don't find it delightful or delicious. What would you call it? From the NEW YORK SUN, July 2-4, 2004, pg. 20, col. 2: "De-Lovely" (PG-13, 125 mins.) is de-lousy. (GOOGLE) Amazon.com: Music: De-Lovely [SOUNDTRACK]... De-Lovely is De-Lousy! An Abomination!, June 30, 2004, Reviewer: Phil ... Porter's music. "De-Lovely" is De- Lousy! Was this review helpful to you? ... www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/B00023GGHQ?v=glance - 63k - Jun 30, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages New Movie Shorts... Tempting to call it "de-lousy" and be done with it, but Irwin Winkler's ... De-Lovely's shocking revelation is that behind the bubbling wit was a reservoir of pain ... citypaper.net/articles/current/movshts.shtml - 16k - Jul 1, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages The Village Voice: Theater: Thames the Breaks by David Finkle... performances from his troupe, he's inexplicably dropped many of the Cole Porter lyrics to "You're the Top" and "It's De-Lovely." And that's de-lousy, like so ... www.villagevoice.com/issues/0306/finkle.php - 32k - Cached - Similar pages ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HIPSTERATI HIPSTERATI--142 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits "I hate these hipsterati Manhattan wimps." --METRO (NY free newspaper), July 2-5, 2004, pg. 10, col. 1. This "-erati" seems to be a new, New York City-based term. It's used in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. (GOOGLE) Gothamist: Williamsburg: Victimized by its own Hipness ... There's also some bleating about Williamsburg being played out, too full of wannabe hipsters, dirty, the word "hipsterati," how the East Village is real and ... www.gothamist.com/archives/2003/07/ 28/williamsburg_victimized_by_its_own_hipness.php - 45k - Cached - Similar pages Bollywood Disco: 1st Anniversary - May 21, 2003 ... 15, 2002 founder DJ Rekha has dusted off the musical gems of Bombay for a core audience of Bollywood fanatics and a growing number of New York?s hipsterati. ... www.salaamtheatre.org/bollydisco2003.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages CMJ.com: new music first ... LIARS LINKS official site RECORD LABEL Mute, LIARS: Artist Spotlight Two years ago, Liars were the shimmying ambassadors of the Brooklyn hipsterati, launching a ... www.cmj.com/articles/display_article.php?id=545460 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: He's Got His Moe-jo Workin' ... the stock car is fun," he exclaims. Reaching out to the hipsterati does have its limits, however. When asked if he has any plans ... mn.politics - Jul 25, 2002 by American - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ADS-L "WHERE ARE THEY NOW?" --JIM CROTTY News reports of my 1970s chess friend Sam Sloan, of Ronald Reagan, and of Bill Clinton have me nostalgic for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. I checked up on some ADS-L nostalgia. What the hell happened to Jim Crotty? Seven years ago, in July 1997, he came out with HOW TO TALK AMERICAN. Then, his Monk Magazine published guidebooks of New York CIty and California. A check of Amazon.com for HOW TO TALK AMERICAN shows this: Customers who bought titles by James Marshall Crotty also bought titles by these authors: Allan Metcalf Robert Blumenfeld Laurie Bauer University of Chicago Press Staff There are these Google hits. (GOOGLE) James Crotty All Contents Copyright ? James Crotty Website Developed by Monk Media. www.jamescrotty.com/biography.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages MONK - Slant The Monk Makes the Scene by James Crotty June 15, 2002. THE MONK MAKES THE SCENE. fter watching the Independent Spirit Awards on Bravo ... www.monk.com/display.php?p=Slant&id=6 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages The Monk Magazine site hasn't had a new post in over two years. I knew that the road was a dead end for the Monks--they can't compete with LONELY PLANET and LET'S GO in the travel guide field. Their New York City and California guides are no longer being sold. A growing internet has seemingly passed the Monks by. HOW TO TALK AMERICAN was an interesting hodge-podge collection of slang, collected without historical sources. But where was Crotty going with all this? What would he do next? A check of "Jim Crotty" + "Monk" on Google Groups shows only 25 hits, and only one since 2001. Was HOW TO TALK AMERICAN the end of the road for him? Thus ends our July 4th special feature, ADS-L "Where Are They Now?" From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Jul 3 11:57:56 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:57:56 -0400 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: <520D54BE-CC87-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: as arnold well knows, this mismatch has been looked at formally in so-called "linguistic insecurity" studies, early on in Labov's NYC study and then in Trudgill's Norwich study, the latter of which coined the terms "over-" and "underreporters" for those who said they used more (or less) of the standard form than they actually did. This led to the codification of the notions of "overt" and "covert" prestige and to their early applications to sex-related preferences in language. Although a lot of water has flowed over (and under) the sociolinguistic dam since, these early efforts are worth remembering. On a more anecdotal note, I actually once heard an otherwise respectable linguist say that of course untrained speakers might err in self-report but that once one had linguistic awareness (i.e., formal training) no such mismatch was possible. As the great political thinker Rush Limbaugh might say, "Hoo boy!" dInIs >On Jun 29, 2004, at 7:55 PM, Wilson Gray notes the following phenomenon: > >>There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce >>a >>given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to >>their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their >>idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its >>standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic >>pronunciation. E.g. >> >>A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? >>B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"? >>A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"! >>I say "street"! >>B. Oh. Okay. My bad. >>A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything? > >the generalization is that, in a great many settings, people tend to >believe that they say what they think they're supposed to say. it's a >species of earnest self-delusion. > >so wilson's example is a lot like people's insisting that they never >"drop their g's" -- and then, of course, do so as soon as their >attention is focused elsewhere. > >some years back we had a discussion here about r-omission by otherwise >rful speakers, and i noted that lots of people, a fair amount of the >time, didn't have an r in the first syllable of "quarter". as the >discussion went on, people who protested that they'd never heard of >such a thing, etc. suddenly caught *themselves* saying "quater" >(exactly the response i had when my first linguistics teacher, the >classicist samuel atkins of princeton, pointed out that this was my >usual pronunciation). > >more recently I've had a certain number of excellent writers (like >louis menand) and linguists (like larry trask) and authorities on >writing claim to me that they never used possessive antecedents for >pronouns, though in fact they did, they did. > >one of those things that can make self-reports, including acceptability >judgments, perilous. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 3 13:58:01 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:58:01 -0500 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0500 7/2/04, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > >List members [of American Name Society]: > > >The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) > >The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. > >/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. > >I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? > >Thank you, > >Michael McCafferty Sounds like the President presiding over a Cabinet session (now 15 executive departments, maybe fewer earlier)--somewhat like an Indian chief presiding over a pow-wow. Maybe "ten" was taken as a general term to indicate a large number at the meeting, i.e., anything more than just a few. Gerald Cohen From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 16:56:01 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:56:01 -0700 Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2004, at 4:57 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > as arnold well knows, this mismatch has been looked at formally in > so-called "linguistic insecurity" studies... yes, i should have cited this literature. and also made it clear that there are two rather different sorts of examples in what's been posted so far; they differ in the degree to which speakers are aware of an alternation. the classic linguistic insecurity studies involved variables that people were aware of; usually, they'd been instructed, formally or informally, that one variant was "wrong" or "bad" or "incorrect". g-dropping and the possessive antecedent proscription are two such cases. (i have yet to find anyone who has a problem with things like "Mary's mother admires her" who *wasn't* taught a "rule".) in such cases, we get misreporting, sometimes hypercorrection, sometimes (as with split infinitives) avoidance. but the "skreek" (for "street") and "quater" (for "quarter") cases are somewhat different. the level of social awareness of the non-standard variants hovers near zero; it's the sort of thing only a linguist would notice. still, the spellings provide a model for how the words "should" be pronounced, so people believe that they *do* pronounce them that way. there are many other types of cases, of course. even when there's instruction, some non-standard variants are much more accessible to awareness than others; for example, it's hugely easier to get AAVE-speaking kids to notice (and standardize, for classroom purposes) multiple negation than habitual "be". and when there's no instruction, people who use the non-standard variant often simply take it to be perfectly ordinary; this is my position on the GoToGo construction ("She's going to San Francisco and talk on firewalls"). our grad student laura staum estimates that about 20% of american speakers (at least those on the internet) use such examples and judge them to be acceptable; the others view them as speech errors. i'm a GoToGo speaker -- the example above was from me -- and my first response on having the construction called to my attention was to ask, "how else would you say that?" (the answer is: the longer "She's going to go to San Francisco and talk about firewalls", or the semantically non-equivalent "She's going to San Francisco to talk about firewalls".) well, there's more still. and, as dInIs noted, trained linguists are no better at judging which variants they use, how often, than normal people. how could we be? we're too busy talking and writing to monitor the details of our productions. hell, we're not even very good at estimating, off the cuff, the frequency of features in corpora, since some instances escape our notice and others weigh too heavily. transcribing data and hand-counting instances of features are both tremendously difficult (and tedious) -- despite the fact that we're trying to be as aware as possible. ok, this is preaching to the choir... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 18:47:08 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:47:08 -0700 Subject: the respelling tactic Message-ID: from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": --------- The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely different from niggers and thus acceptable. ---------- ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", "ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers if she told them that she spelled these words differently. whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it provides for the same pronunciation. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 3 19:44:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:11 EDT Subject: When in doubt, punt (1923) or mumble (1970) Message-ID: WHEN IN DOUBT, PUNT--1,180 Google hits, 138 Google Groups hits WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE--1,580 Google hits, 3,150 Google Groups hits Another look at these. Nothing early on "punt" in THE SPORTING NEWS. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (punt) Ironwood Daily Globe Saturday, October 06, 1923 Ironwood, Michigan ...encourages tho quarter to PUNT WHEN IN DOUBT; that on every perfectly executed.....ho marjo a good nhowlng IN Tnnncssec; PUNT Is Football's Greatest Play, Says.. Pg. 8, col. 4: _Punt Is Football's Greatest Play,_ _Says Famous Grid Coach_ By ROBERT C. ZUPPKE Football Coach, University of Illinois, Author of "Football Technique and Tactics" A sound football system teaches its quarterback and captain that the punt is its greatest play and encourages the quarter to punt when in doubt; the on every perfectly executed punt, backed up by a well drilled team, the ball is given to the opponents in exchange for 40 yards of valuable territory. News Thursday, October 11, 1923 Frederick, Maryland ...encourages the quarter to PUNT WHEN IN DOUBT: that on every perfectly executed.....BootleggINg. PLEADS GUILTY IN COURT PUNT Is Football's Greatest Play, Says.. Appleton Post Crescent Saturday, October 11, 1924 Appleton, Wisconsin ...to his field general Is, "WHEN IN DOUBT as to what to do, PUNT." BAGGAGE.....durINg the Beanon. welpfhed 1 55 WHEN he reported IN the sprINg, 185 WHEN.. Iowa City Press Citizen Saturday, October 11, 1924 Iowa City, Iowa ...Saturday at 9 a. m. .V.-i WHEN IN DOUBT PUNT JBob iiuppke of IlUnois is.....to 'his field general is, "wjien IN DOUBT as what to .do, .pun't" otograph.. Bee Monday, October 13, 1924 Danville, Virginia ...must they vote for a jew. N IN "DOUBT. PUNT Coach Bob Zuppke of.....to his field general is. "WHEN IN DOUBT as to what to. do. PUNT." one the.. Lima News Sunday, October 26, 1924 Lima, Ohio ...it n fi.rwurd pits, from I WHEN IN DOUBT, PUNT Kt'lkeiIN luiy. lirmiKlil.....do, of to bIN field general "whfn IN DOUBT to what to Now Is The Time To.. (GOOGLE) Goffstown Youth Football Association ... PREVIOUS MONTHS QUOTES. Jan 2002. "When in doubt Punt. ... Answer: Bob Zuppke- Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest minds. ... screamineagles.com/CoachesQuote/gyfaquot.html - 48k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages ("John Heisman" is given credit for "When in doubt, punt"--ed.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (mumble) Edwardsville Intelligencer Saturday, August 22, 1970 Edwardsville, Illinois ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE. Qualified Bureaucrat.....obfus'cation. With its motto WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE and Us coat of arms a.. (This date is actually August 24, 1970, as with the other cites below--ed.) Pg. 1, col. 4: _Group Is Champion of Red Tape_ Washington (AP) Bothered by progress and understanding? The National Association of Professional Bureaucrats stands ready to help get you back to a confused and furious standstill. (...) With tis motto "when in double, mumble" and its coat of arms a rampant duck snarled in red tape, NATAPROBU now boasts some 300 members and claims an international division. (...)(Col. 5--ed.) Helpful also is NATAPROBU's executive pencil with an eraser on each end. The organization motto comes from the guidelines enunciated by James H. Boren, founder, president and chairman ot the board of the association. These guidelines, which all bureaucratic members are required to memorize, are: "when in charge, ponder; when in trouble, delegate; when in doubt, mumble." Stevens Point Daily Journal Monday, August 24, 1970 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...WHEN hi trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....1 UN ITED -BUREAUCRATS i n i WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE Economy As WASHINGTON (AP.. Ironwood Daily Globe Monday, August 24, 1970 Ironwood, Michigan ...cases IN federal courts. 'WHEN IN DOUBT MUMBLE' NATAPROBU Dedicated to.....WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.. Sheboygan Press Monday, August 24, 1970 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE' Is Motto Of The NATAPROBU.. Iowa City Press Citizen Monday, August 24, 1970 Iowa City, Iowa ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate: WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren i.a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms a.. Lima News Monday, August 24, 1970 Lima, Ohio ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coal of arms a.. Chronicle Telegram Monday, August 24, 1970 Elyria, Ohio ...WHEN IN trouble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms, a.. Gettysburg Times Monday, August 24, 1970 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...WHEN IN trou ble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE." Boren is a qualified.....obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat, of arms, a.. Indiana Evening Gazette Monday, August 24, 1970 Indiana, Pennsylvania ...by progress and ble, delegate; WHEN IN DOUBT, i nencils stands ready to help.....get you MUMBLE pencils. back to a confused and.. Daily Times News Monday, August 24, 1970 Burlington, North Carolina ...obfuscation. With its motto "WHEN IN DOUBT, MUMBLE" and its coat of arms a.....IN care of this newspaper.) IN DOUBT, MUMBLE' Now The Bureaucrats Even.. (GOOGLE GROUPS) WTB: When in Doubt, Mumble A friend is looking to buy When in Doubt, Mumble, by James Boren. Please send information including price and condition to charyk at inforamp.net Linda rec.arts.books.marketplace - Aug 23, 1995 by Field of Roses - View Thread (1 article) When in Doubt, Mumble Founded in 1968, the club (motto "when in doubt, mumble") promotes excellence in "dynamic inaction, orbital dialoguing and creative non-responsiveness". ... alt.usage.english - Apr 15, 1996 by Matthew Rabuzzi - View Thread (1 article) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 3 20:34:58 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: spelling matters Message-ID: arnold writes: >whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the writing system in the minds of its users. < ~~~~~~~~~ Something like this thought passed through my mind when *nuclear/nucular/ nuke* were being discussed here last week. It occurred to me that a speaker (if any such exists) who did employ "nucular" for atomic reference, but "nuclear" in other contexts might be thinking "nukular" derived from "nuke." A. Murie From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 4 10:20:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:20:41 -0400 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: <630098B4-CD21-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >Once again arnold gets to say all the clever stuff, and I follow up >with the references. Readers intereted in (some of) the social >meansings of respellings should consult the special issue of the >Journal of Sociolinguistics (ed. by Alexandra Jaffe) on just this >topic. It's Volume 4, #4, November 2000. dInIs > from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial >Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": > >--------- >The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state >their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified >teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely >different from niggers and thus acceptable. >---------- > >ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", >"ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses >is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is >an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" >and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers >if she told them that she spelled these words differently. > >whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the >writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting >exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the >english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it >provides for the same pronunciation. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 3 23:31:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:31:45 -0700 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 4, 2004, at 3:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> Once again arnold gets to say all the clever stuff, and I follow up >> with the references. i am a lazy person, and good at getting other people to do my work for me. this is why we have grad students, no? (now, if only i could get an institution to pay me to get other people to do my work for me...) >> Readers intereted in (some of) the social >> meansings of respellings should consult the special issue of the >> Journal of Sociolinguistics (ed. by Alexandra Jaffe) on just this >> topic. It's Volume 4, #4, November 2000. good reference. thanks, dInIs. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), working at home, away from his office/library/study From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 4 10:15:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:15:30 EDT Subject: Eat Off (1948?); Offer you can't refuse; New Yorker Message-ID: EAT OFF EAT OFF + CONTEST--827 Google hits, 159 Google Group hits I've done the Pillsbury "bake off" and "cook off" and "rib off" (a ripoff), but not "eat off." See the 1948 "clam off" "eat off" in Seattle. Did they really call it that in 1948--before the Pillsbury "bake off" even began? Is there a good way to verify what they called in in 1948? (GOOGLE NEWS) Posted on Sat, Jul. 03, 2004 Sideshow, sport or stunt? Competitive eating goes big time By PAULINE ARRILLAGA The Associated Press (...) In 1997, Nathan?s launched eat-offs in several U.S. cities to lure America?s top gurgitators to the table on Independence Day. But it occurred to the Sheas and their cabernet-quaffing friends: Why limit this endeavor to Nathan?s? To New York? Indeed, to hot dogs? (GOOGLE) http://www.ivars.net/Timeline_Home/1948.html East vs. West and Acres of Clams...The first clam eating contest was held at (where else?) Pier 54. The winner was Richard Watson, a Seattle cabdriver, who gulped down 110 clams in 10 minutes and became the first ever IPFSACECA (The International Pacific Free Style Amateur Clam Eating Contest Association) World Champion Clam Eater. No sooner had Watson been crowned world champ than someone yelled "FOUL!" Ivar was shocked. "Who could possibly impugn the integrity of the IPFSACECA? We've only had one contest," he said, "and besides we make up our own rules." The grievance came from Massachusetts, of all places, and came from a truck driver named Joe Silva. "Your boy," Joe claimed, "cannot possibly be the Clam Eating Champion of the world until he defends his title against the East Coast Champion, namely me."Ivar carefully considered the situation. Two clam eating champions? Competing in Seattle for the world title? This was too good to be true. After deliberating for a good two or three seconds, he accepted the challenge. The stage was set for the great East versus West Clam Eat Off of 1948. The great East vs. West Clam Eat Off of 1948 ended in victory for Seattle cabdriver RIchard Watson. He is shown above receiving the coveted title crown from Ivar and congratulations from East Coast challenger Joe Silva. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Japan's top glutton squared off against the world hot dog eating ... ... George Shea, a promoter for Nathan's Famous, the restaurant that sponsored the contest. ... record, which he set July 4 at Nathan's annual Coney Island eat-off. ... alt.gossip.royalty - Dec 5, 1996 by patdwfsyte at aol.com - View Thread (1 article) REPOST: The big eat-off ... What it appears that your knowledgable news sources have overlooked is the famous pie-eating contest between Nell and Oprah Winfrey. ... alt.tasteless - Sep 10, 1994 by Mike Weber - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE This is from Marlon Brando in THE GODFATHER, of course. Before that, it appears that it had some currency with used car salesmen. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Atchison Daily Globe Friday, March 15, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....2 1949 HUDSON 4-Dr. Sedan Make An OFFER EKL AUTO CO. 216 Com'l. Phone 3123.. Atchison Daily Globe Sunday, March 17, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....Chicks are roven winners. YOU can save 25% cost with Personal Choice.. Atchison Daily Globe Friday, March 15, 1957 Atchison, Kansas ...USED CARS We'll Make YOU An OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE. Be Our Guest Come In Or.....2 1949 HUDSON 4-Dr. Sedan Make An OFFER EKL AUTO CO. 216 Com'l. Phone 3123.. Bridgeport Telegram Saturday, June 11, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...for themselves. HERE IS AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE TERMS Jl 50 WEEKLY OI-KN A.....SATURDAY, JUNE 11, 1927 II: I, TWO OFFER Only One Teacher on Staff of.. Bridgeport Telegram Saturday, June 04, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...for themselves. HERE IS AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE OPEN MONDAY AND SATURDAY.....4160 "A Real Nature Last" "A Shoe YOU Can Wear Without Breaking In" "BASS.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW YORKER Today's FYI section of the NEW YORK TIMES repeats the myth that George Washington was the first person to use "New Yorker." I debunked this many years ago, right here. The TIMES is serious about accuracy and will correct this right away. From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Sun Jul 4 11:05:47 2004 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:05:47 EDT Subject: mmmkay? and its kin Message-ID: Arnold, I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, and it is used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in length. Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. Where are the people from who use this form? Lois Nathan From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 4 12:23:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:23:44 -0400 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <136.30639a69.2e193e8b@aol.com> Message-ID: >Has anyone yet speculated that "mmmkay" may be a blend of the first >part of the variant of uh-huh which is completely nasal, plus the >second part of "OK," or is that too obvious to even note? It's not entirely obvious to me, at any rate. "Mmmmkay" might on the other hand be a combination of "Hmmmmm" + "OK." If so, one would expect to find a distribution in which "mmmkay" would indicate less certainty than "uh-huh" or "OK," putting aside the back-channel uses of all of them, itself a difficult task. dInIs >Arnold, > I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, and it is >used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in length. > Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. Where >are the people from who use this form? > >Lois Nathan From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 5 00:34:03 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:34:03 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down here, too." I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence Day! -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 01:37:12 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:37:12 -0700 Subject: wedded to the hyphen Message-ID: from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge to Go West, p. 6: ----------- ...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made him wealthy, Kool-Aid. ----------- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 5 02:00:52 2004 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:00:52 -0400 Subject: wedded to the hyphen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, the ironies of fate. Incredibly rich(assuming he patented and retained control of the patent), but he lost his hyphen. Jim Stalker stalker at msu.edu Arnold M. Zwicky writes: > from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david > howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge > to Go West, p. 6: > > ----------- > ...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. > Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose > imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, > Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made > him wealthy, Kool-Aid. > ----------- > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 02:56:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:56:55 -0400 Subject: New Yorker (1746, 1749, 1751, 1754) Message-ID: "Although Washington lived in New York only briefly, the earliest known use of the term "New Yorker" in a published work is found in a letter he wrote in 1756." ---NEW YORK TIMES, FYI, City section, 4 July 2004 As I told the New York Times, I'd debunked the George Washington "New Yorker" coinage myth years ago. Here are database citations: (EARLY ENCOUNTERS IN NORTH AMERICA) Colden, Lord Cadwallader, 1688-1776, Letters and Papers of Cadwallader Colden, vol. 9: 1749-1775. New York, NY: New York Historical Society, 1937, pp. 489. [Bibliographic Details] Previous page Page 62 rom John Colden Janry 17th 1749/50 Hond Sir On New Years day I had the great happiness to receive yours of Decr 25th & I hope there is now Letters again for me in Town by Mr Mathews who I hear is just now Come to Town but don't know where to find him & as Mr Crooke is goeing out of Town tomorrow I cant delay writeing longer than this Evening; the Court being to meet early in the Morning. The letters to My Sisters &c. I have had by me wrote this three weeks but could Page 63 hear of no opperty to Convey them till now I delay'd writeing to you Sr & my Mother in hopes of having something to offer better worth your Acceptance & I must now beg my Mother, Br Colden & Br Cadwr to excuse my not writeing to them being fatigued & it being now Late but propose to Perform that Duty by Mr Mathew. The person that had spoke to Collins about the Land at Canajohary was Marte V Alstyne who offering so litle as ?70 for the whole we are not like to Come to any Agreemt The new Judges [30] very much alter the Face of the Court here & Things I hope will go on agreably & I may now say that I have nothing to chagrin me & am in good health & Sr That You my Mother Brs & Sistrs &c. may enjoy the same & every other Blessing is the sincere Prayer of Dr Sr Your most Dutifull & Ever Obedt Son John Colden The Town is full of New Yorkers cheifly opponents who are endeavouring to make a Stir among the People for a new Election [Addressed:] [Cadw]allader Colden Esqr att Coldengham (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #7572 February 25, 1746 The Pennsylvania Gazette PHILADELPHIA, February 25. By a Gentleman from Virginia we are informed, that the Seven Transports, mentioned in our last, from Gibraltar, with the Forces for Cape Breton, and the two Men of War, their Convoy, are arrived in James River. Thursday last arrived the Privateer Snow Warren, of this Place, Capt. Kattur, from a Cruize. She took off of Cape Antonio a French Privateer Sloop, of 12 Carriage Guns, from Cape Francois, Capt. Quideaux; she had Fifty five Hands, and an English Pilot, on board, and was bound to the Havannah, to get more Men, to come and cruize on this Coast early in the Spring. Capt. Kattur likewise retook the Schooner Endeavour, belonging to this Port, which had been taken by the above Privateer: He sent both Privateer and Schooner to Providence. Capt. Kattur informs us, that the Privateer Snow Dreadnought, of St. Christophers, Capt. Cunningham, lately refitted here, being on a Cruize to the Windward of Cape Francois, on the 15th of November last, fell in with two Privateers of New York, and one of Bermuda. The same Day they saw five Sail of French Merchantmen (Part of the Fleet whose Convoy had an Engagement with some of our Men of War lately in the Windward Passage) whom the Privateers all agreed to fight. Captain Cunningham accordingly engaged the Frenchmen, but was assisted by none of his Consorts; and after exchanging some Broadsides with them, bore down upon the Privateers, to know the Reason of their not coming up: They made some frivolous Excuse, and told him, that if he would engage a second time, they would give him all the Assistance they could. Upon which, he next Day engaged four of the Ships very smartly under his Lee, during which Time the << New Yorkers>> dropt astern. Capt. Cunningham finding there was no Help to be expected from them, got from the Ships as well as he could, and again bore down on them, to know why they used him so basely; they could not excuse themselves, but desired him to engage a third time, and they would certainly come up, which he refused, and went to Jamaica to (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #12897 May 2, 1751 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, April 29. Yesterday arrived here Capt. Tucker in a sloop, and Capt. Foster in a Brigt. from Antigua. We hear that this Day a great Cricket Match is to be playon our Commons by a Company of London against a Company of << New Yorkers>> . (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) ITEM #13482 September 12, 1751 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, Sept. 9. Friday Morning last Jonathan Woodman, the Person who was committed to our Jail some Time ago for uttering Counterfeit Twenty Shilling Bills of this Province, was found hanging dead in his Garters at the Grate of his Prison: -- Tis said he had been under Terrors and Anguish of Mind for some Time past; which his Confederate has been pleased to say, was occasioned by his Guilt for impeaching of him, and is now in Hopes, as there is no other material Evidence against him, that he will get clear, tho'he appears to have been the greatest Rogue of the two. However that be, this Woodman from his first Commitment, apprehended he must die; and therefore is supposed to be either so charitable, as to think to save the Hangman the Labour, or else hung himself to save his Life: And a Pity the other would not follow his Example; as all such Pests of Society ought to be lookon as scarce worthy of the Labour of a Hangman. --- There were two Men in the same Jail with him, who were asleep when he did it, and knew nothing of the Matter till they found him hanging in the Morning. We have Advice from Halifax in Nova Scotia, that there is such a Number of << New Yorkers>> got to that Place, since the first Settlement of it, as well nearly fill one of the largest Streets in the Town, and that they are about to form themselves in one Street, into a Society or Company by the Name of the Free New York Fishery Company at Nova Scotia; and that all that shall hereafter come there from new York, provided they come as one of King DavidSoldiers, (See 1 (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES) TEM #16704 March 26, 1754 The Pennsylvania Gazette NEW YORK, March 18. Capt. White of the Snow Charming Sally, who was reported in our late News papers to be blown off this Coast the Beginning of November, bound in here, from Waterford in Ireland, and to have put into Antigua, arrived here on Friday last in 18 Days from the Virgin Islands: He advises of the safe Arrival thither of Capt. Tingley in a Sloop of this Port, from Antigua: That several << New Yorkers>> , and other Northern Vessels were at those Islands preparing for their Return home, as fast as the Crops would admit: And that the Night in which he sailfrom St. Eustatia, a large French Schooner, in the From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 03:23:56 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:23:56 -0400 Subject: wedded to the hyphen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:00 PM -0400 7/4/04, James C Stalker wrote: >Ah, the ironies of fate. Incredibly rich(assuming he patented and retained >control of the patent), but he lost his hyphen. > >Jim Stalker >stalker at msu.edu > Maybe he lost his hyphen riding his bi-cycle. L > >Arnold M. Zwicky writes: > >>from verlyn klinkenborg's NYT Book Review (7/4/04) review of david >>howard bain's The Old Iron Road: An Epic of Rails, Roads, and the Urge >>to Go West, p. 6: >> >>----------- >>...we also meet a lot of people who are less well known, like Edwin E. >>Perkins, late of Hastings, Neb. Perkins was an inventor whose >>imagination was wedded to the hyphen. He created Motor-Vigor, >>Glos-Comb and Jel-Aid before finally perfecting the product that made >>him wealthy, Kool-Aid. >>----------- >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), giggling in hyphens >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jul 5 03:31:04 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:31:04 -0500 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: <20040704203042.I18812@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >here, too." > >I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >Day! > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 04:43:22 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:43:22 -0700 Subject: mmmkay? and its kin In-Reply-To: <136.30639a69.2e193e8b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jul 4, 2004, at 4:05 AM, Lois Nathan wrote: > I know a user of 'mmkay'. I believe it has a labial component, > and it is > used as by him as an agreement marker. I'd give it a double "m" in > length. > Just out of curiosity, this guy is from the south or near south. > Where > are the people from who use this form? as i explained in my first posting on this, i first became aware of it *in print* (though now i realize i must have heard it on South Park, without catching its significance). the web hits have a vaguely southern tilt, but that's hard to judge. the quotation from Genre probably isn't of southern origin, but Genre's writing is self-consciously hip, and the "mmmkay?" almost surely comes from South Park. i was hoping that someone both phonetically and socilinguistically adept would have looked at this... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 5 15:08:27 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:08:27 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: Members of these lists might want to know that Robert Burchfield, former Chief Editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, died this morning after a long illness. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 5 17:12:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:12 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: <20040705040246.26EB022871@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: >Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >here, too." > >I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >Day! Barbara Need answered: >>> Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. <<< I assume you weren't taking my wife's "theory" seriously! I noticed this one just because we, too, have come down from Massachusetts. We lived there from 1980 to 2002 -- briefly in Brighton, then in Marlboro for a couple of years, then in Framingham from about 1983 on. I moved to the Philadelphia to work in about September of 2002, and a year later bought a house and brought my family down as well. When we first came to the Boston area we were surprised by the term "jimmies", which we were unfamiliar with, and then quickly learned that it was local to the area, and adopted it ourselves. We have seldom if ever heard it outside New England. But you left Philadelphia just about as we were setting up in Massachusetts, over 20 years ago. Should it be surprising if the word has jumped or spread from Boston to Philadelphia, with or without skipping New York, in a generation? Especially if carried by a generation of college students. I have one data point now, plus hearsay, all from the same informant, a college-age woman working in a store serving a mostly university population across the street from an Ivy League campus. I don't know how widespread the word is in Philadelphia overall, but I would not be at all surprised if it were somewhat well-known among the students and totally unfamiliar further out. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:37:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:37:38 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism Message-ID: i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the triggering of negative-polarity "any": (NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) ------- It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps any American, could not resolve. ------- this has a parenthetical conjunct NP "and perhaps any American", with a negative-polarity "any" in it that is apparently triggered by the negative VP "could not resolve". the problem is that when we unpack the coordination into two relative clauses, we get: problems that Mr. Bremer could not resolve and problems that perhaps any American could not resolve the second of which is ungrammatical, or only very marginally acceptable, because the "any" precedes the trigger "not": it's the same problem as *Any American could not resolve these problems. fixing the second to problems that perhaps no American could resolve no longer allows it to combine with the first in such a way that two subject NPs are coordinated: *problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps no American, could (not) resolve there *are* solutions, with "conjunct raising" (nonconstituent coordination) -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not, and perhaps no American could, resolve or with a postposed negative tag -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, nor perhaps could any American problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, and perhaps no American could or with a postposed noncoordinate parenthetical -- problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve (perhaps no American could). but the first is awkward (conjunct raising in general seems to present perceptual difficulties that constituent coordination does not) and the other two don't put Mr. Bremer and Americans in general into a direct comparison. all three are also longer than the version that appeared in the article. so: go for a punchy direct comparison, and you fall afoul of NPI triggering. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:47:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:47:39 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal >modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, >errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in >agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism >in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the >triggering of negative-polarity "any": > >(NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial >America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) >------- >It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps >any American, could not resolve. >------- I actually noticed this one. But for me, it's not terrible, since there's a free-choice reading for the "any", so the offending clause below ("Any American could not resolve these problems"). A lot worse is the variant I've not infrequently noticed of the form ...that Bremer, and perhaps no American, could resolve. Clearly, in Jerry Cohen's terms, a syntactic blend of "Bremer could not resolve..." and "No American could resolve". But on the same footing with, say, "*one of the best, if not THE best, {resolution/resolutions}..." > >this has a parenthetical conjunct NP "and perhaps any American", with a >negative-polarity "any" not necessarily, as noted. Larry > in it that is apparently triggered by the >negative VP "could not resolve". the problem is that when we unpack >the coordination into two relative clauses, we get: > problems that Mr. Bremer could not resolve > and > problems that perhaps any American could not resolve >the second of which is ungrammatical, or only very marginally >acceptable, because the "any" precedes the trigger "not": it's the >same problem as > *Any American could not resolve these problems. > >fixing the second to > problems that perhaps no American could resolve >no longer allows it to combine with the first in such a way that two >subject NPs are coordinated: > *problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps no American, could (not) >resolve > >there *are* solutions, with "conjunct raising" (nonconstituent >coordination) -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not, and perhaps no American could, >resolve >or with a postposed negative tag -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, nor perhaps could any >American > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve, and perhaps no American >could >or with a postposed noncoordinate parenthetical -- > problems that Mr. Bremer could not solve (perhaps no American could). >but the first is awkward (conjunct raising in general seems to present >perceptual difficulties that constituent coordination does not) and the >other two don't put Mr. Bremer and Americans in general into a direct >comparison. all three are also longer than the version that appeared >in the article. > >so: go for a punchy direct comparison, and you fall afoul of NPI >triggering. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 19:54:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:54:37 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >i've been collecting examples where parentheticals, postnominal >modifiers, and coordination set things up for what are, on reflection, >errors. these include cases of "determination by the nearest" (in >agreement and government) and several kinds of failures of parallelism >in coordination. here's a new type of example, involving the >triggering of negative-polarity "any": > >(NYT Week in Review, 7/4/04, p. 6, "Strange Bedfellows: 'Imperial >America' Retreats from Iraq" by Roger Cohen) >------- >It was a low-key exit, reflecting problems that Mr. Bremer, and perhaps >any American, could not resolve. >------- On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't involve a conjunctive blend: Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive after watching this film. http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=12&screen=news&news_id=33015 (re Lars von Trier's "Dogville", if you're curious) L From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 5 20:12:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't > involve a conjunctive blend: > > Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I > would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive > after watching this film. this one i find hugely better than Any American could not resolve these problems. the Dogville critique is better, i think because "couldn't help but" is in fact semantically positive, roughly equivalent to "would". i have tremendous trouble with free-choice "any" subjects with semantically negative VPs. i realize this is subtle, since things like Any American would be unable to resolve these problems. Any American would fail to resolve these problems. are fine free-choice sentences for me. but i do understand that there are dialect differences on the truly negative sentences. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 20:23:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:23:38 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <9B374E02-CEBF-11D8-A12C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 1:12 PM -0700 7/5/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>On the free-choice reading I just alluded to, here's one that doesn't >>involve a conjunctive blend: >> >>Not that defending one's country is the job of a film critic, but I >>would think any American couldn't help but feel a little defensive >>after watching this film. > >this one i find hugely better than > Any American could not resolve these problems. >the Dogville critique is better, i think because "couldn't help but" is >in fact semantically positive, roughly equivalent to "would". > >i have tremendous trouble with free-choice "any" subjects with >semantically negative VPs. i realize this is subtle, since things like > Any American would be unable to resolve these problems. > Any American would fail to resolve these problems. >are fine free-choice sentences for me. > >but i do understand that there are dialect differences on the truly >negative sentences. > How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our viewing pleasure: consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come along and drop your tables "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone can't just waltz into their place of business." But anyone can't solve that problem... The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel Just anybody can't baptize anybody. People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody can't give it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on my desktop and start loading things. With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to realize that just anybody can't be governor From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 20:59:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:59:51 EDT Subject: "I've got a gun, and I'm not afraid to use it!" Message-ID: Calm down. Just a phrase. I don't have a gun. Actually, I've got Microsoft Windows and I'm completely afraid to use it. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=369023 Subject: for pinkfreud-ga only, "I've got a gun and..." Category: Arts and Entertainment > Movies and Film Asked by: mathtalk-ga List Price: $50.00 Posted: 02 Jul 2004 12:38 PDT Expires: 01 Aug 2004 12:38 PDT Question ID: 369023 "...I'm not afraid to use it." This line has been used to humorous effect, but my aging brain cells cannot recall its original context. I think it was an action movie,and the villain, who is getting the upperhand on the hero, is threatened by the heroine with this line. (I believe it turns out sheis too afraid to use the weapon effectively, but somehow the momentary distraction turns the tide.) Please, pinkfreud, recall for me my lost (suppressed?) memories &soothe my anxieties... deepest, mathtalk-ga Subject: Re: for pinkfreud-ga only, "I've got a gun and..." Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 03 Jul 2004 14:28 PDT Rated: Dearest MT, Sometimes a Google search can become an obsession. Yesterday, today, and even as I slept, I have tried to track down a filmic source for the line "I've got a gun and I'm not afraid to useit" (or variants such as "I have a gun and I know how to use it.") While I found umpty-jillion references to the line, not one was fromanything resembling an original source such as a classic film noir, anold radio drama, or a Sam Spade-type hard-boiled detective novel (oreven a Nero Wolfe-type deep-fat-fried detective novel). Doggone it, Iwas hoping for Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler. Woulda settled for Mickey Spillane. But, as far as old sources go, I came up withzilch. El zippo. Diddly. Zeroni. Bupkis. Nada. To sum up, I got plenty o' nuttin'. It is my belief that "I've got a gun and I'm not afraid to use it" isa recent coinage that *sounds* like a line from an old movie, but isn't. Rather, it is a condensation of the sort of stereotypicalutterances that one associates with vintage melodramas of the Bogartilk. Campbell's Cream of Mock Clich?. Mmmm-mmmm good. (...) Recent coinage? Why do these guys always look on Google? Are they not allowed to use books or to check databases? Doesn't the correct answer come before the Google product plug? It pre-dates the movies...By the way, $50 is about half of my etymology earnin gs FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Syracuse Herald Sunday, February 18, 1906 Syracuse, New York ...was since. in her pocket and was not AFRAID TO USE IT.' Who Jimmy the But he.....TO his fancied you promise TO explain TO IT was. TO do that you came here TO.. Pg. 6, col. 3: "But that was absurd, too, since, admittedly, she had a pistol in her pocket and was not afraid to use it." Indianapolis Star Friday, July 11, 1913 Indianapolis, Indiana ...revolver in my pocket and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' was then that the.....Winters of .Newcastle, wITh fraudulent USE of the miills, IT IS charged thai.. (The date appears to read 1918, not 1913--ed.) Pg. 5, col. 1: "At this the young man in front said: 'I am not looking for trouble, but if you want it I warn you that I have a loaded revolver in my pocket and I'm not afraid to use it.'" Van Wert Daily Bulletin Wednesday, March 30, 1932 Van Wert, Ohio ...extra guard. I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT." Mr. Sands smiled.....by advance' by employment and USE of materials, TO aU the country. The.. (DAILY SHORT STORY "CALL ME POP" by Francis Paul Pyne--ed.) Pg. 4, col. 2: "Please, if you don't mind, Mr. Sands, I'd like to do this last job myself and without an extra guard. I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it." Monessen Daily Independent Friday, November 22, 1935 Monessen, Pennsylvania ...gun wITh a silencer and that he's not AFRAID TO USE IT." He began TO pace the.....on the floor and then fired a shot at IT TO slow that he's got a.. Pg. 13, col. 1: (From THE LEATHER MASTERS by John Nicholas--ed.) "He sneaked into this room, put the paper on the floor and then fired a shot at it to show that he's got a gun with a silencer and that he's not afraid to use it." Council Bluffs Nonpareil Thursday, November 27, 1952 Council Bluffs, Iowa ...read: "I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT; Put 10s, 20s and 100s in this.....orally: "Put in more 100s; I'm not AFRAID TO USE this Teller Josephine.. Pg. 10, col. 6: _Grandma Strikes_ _Again; Gets $267_ _from Bank in L.A._ LOS ANGELES, AP--Grandma has struck for the third time, pulled another bank holdup and made a clean getaway. Los Angeles gray-haired, cap pistol-totin' bandit shoved a note into a teller's cage Wednesday. It read: "I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it. Put 10s, 20s amd 100s in this sack." And Grandma added, orally: "Put in more 100s; I'm not afraid to use this gun." Lowell Sun Tuesday, May 12, 1953 Lowell, Massachusetts ...TO me. I have a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE -IT." Not believing what she read.....presented TO the enemy "shortly and I USE the word advisedly." Pope Calls for.. Pg. 1, Col. 3: Miss Aldrich took the proffered note and becaem terror-stricken when she read its contents. "This is a stickup," it read, "put the money in the folder and hand it to me. I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it." Edwardsville Intelligencer Tuesday, November 22, 1955 Edwardsville, Illinois ...she stared, not understanding. I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT; bul I don't want any.....days. I've kept IT well hidden. Here USE Dan TOok the gun He held IT, felt.. Nevada State Journal Sunday, August 01, 1965 Reno, Nevada ...LOOK vou TAKE THIS, JUST IN CASE YOU KNOW HOW .TO USE ONE OF THESE? WHY.....MINT HUH GIT PAROLED. FREE. 'FOR6 KNOW IT.' STRAHGE. TWASmesmC STRANGE.. LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE POLICEMAN (handing a gun to a grandma): LOOK! YOU TAKE THIS JUST IN CASE! YOU KNOW HOW TO USE ONE OF THESE? Walla Walla Union Bulletin Thursday, November 18, 1965 Walla Walla, Washington ...of public 'I've go a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT-' Fired Mora Shots.....Robinson, 16, who said he wanted TO go TO Cuba TO help anti-Castro.. Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter Thursday, November 18, 1965 Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin ...he said: 'I've got a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' "Then he fired three.....1.35-50; Wisconsin medium yillow jwhat IT was supposed TO be TO i room and a.. Stevens Point Daily Journal Thursday, November 18, 1965 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...he said: I've got a gun and I'm not AFRAID TO USE IT.' "Then he fired three.....just north of the village and plans TO USE the FHA funds TO construct a nine.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WELL DONE, SHERIFF WHITLOCK. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 27, 1903. p. 6 (1 page) : A Danville mob is quite as dangerous as a Belleville one, but it ran up against a determined sheriff who had a riot gun and who was not afraid to use it. LAWYER RAVES IN CELL.; FEDERAL ATTORNEY BECOMES VIOLENT AND ATTACKS MAN. Attacks Man in Street. Threatens a Policeman. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 24, 1905. p. 2 (1 page): "'You don't look good to me,' he said, and caught me one under the jaw. 'Look out, ' I says; 'I've got a gun here, and I'm not afraid to use it on you, either.'" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 5 21:41:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:41:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: from a by now virtual native speaker... --- begin forwarded text To: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:36:32 EDT From: "Ellen F. Prince" >Do you know from jimmies in Philly? > >L That's what they're called here. That's the ONLY thing they're called here. And that was what they were called when we moved here in 1967. Some people seem to know the term sprinkles but the ones I've discussed this with think sprinkles is only for the multi-colored, non-chocolate kind. I never knew they were also called jimmies in Boston. Live and learn. Ellen >--- begin forwarded text > >Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:12:12 -0400 >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia > >I wrote: > >>Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in >>Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to the option >>shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, the young woman >>behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you want that with jimmies?" I >>said, "Yes, please.... Did you say 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that >>word outside the Boston area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down >>here, too." >> >>I told my wife about it and she came up with the following theory: "When the >>Massachusetts delegation came down her to write the Declaration of >>Independence, they had to bypass New York because it was held by the >>British. They brought the word 'jimmies' with them, and that's why it's >>current in Boston and Philadelphia but not New York." Happy Independence >>Day! > >Barbara Need answered: > >>> > >Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, >1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have >noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. > <<< > >I assume you weren't taking my wife's "theory" seriously! > >I noticed this one just because we, too, have come down from Massachusetts. >We lived there from 1980 to 2002 -- briefly in Brighton, then in Marlboro >for a couple of years, then in Framingham from about 1983 on. I moved to >the Philadelphia to work in about September of 2002, and a year later bought >a house and brought my family down as well. > >When we first came to the Boston area we were surprised by the term >"jimmies", which we were unfamiliar with, and then quickly learned that it >was local to the area, and adopted it ourselves. We have seldom if ever >heard it outside New England. > >But you left Philadelphia just about as we were setting up in Massachusetts, >over 20 years ago. Should it be surprising if the word has jumped or spread >from Boston to Philadelphia, with or without skipping New York, in a >generation? Especially if carried by a generation of college students. I >have one data point now, plus hearsay, all from the same informant, a >college-age woman working in a store serving a mostly university population >across the street from an Ivy League campus. I don't know how widespread >the word is in Philadelphia overall, but I would not be at all surprised if >it were somewhat well-known among the students and totally unfamiliar >further out. > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > >--- end forwarded text > --- end forwarded text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 5 23:18:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:18:54 EDT Subject: Jachnun, Lafa, Matbucha, Melawah, Shakshoukah, Zhug (Yemen cuisine) Message-ID: MELAWAH MELAWAH--28 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits LAFA + BREAD--128 Google hits, 17 Google Groups hits LAFAH + BREAD--13 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hits JACHNOON--76 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits JACHNUN--258 Google hits, 15 Google Groups hits SHAKSHOUKA--1,700 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits MATBUCHA--1,-28 Google hits, 23 Google Groups hits MUJADDARAH--1-2 Google hits, 9 Google Groups hits (Jachnoon, Jachnun, Lafa, Matbucha, Melawah, Mujaddarah, Shakshoukah, Zhug are all not in the OED) On my July 4th walk back from Grant's Tomb and Columbia, I stopped by a kosher Yeminite place called "Alibaba" on 515 Amsterdam, between 84th and 85th Streets. I briefly discussed Yemen cuisine here before (June 2002), but there aren't a whole lot of books to look at. From the menu at www.alibabaNY.com: Breakfast First SHAKSHOUKA--Eggs, fresh tomatoes, tomato sauce and green peppers Salad Delights MATBUCHA--Cooked tomatoes, peppers and garlic Soups for a King KOOBAH--Beef stock with meatballs wrapped in semolina dough On the Side MEJADARAH--Rice and lentils topped with fresh onions Veggie Delicacies MELAWAH--Lightly fried dough served with seasoned crushed tomatoes (hard boiled egg recommended) JACHNOON--Unique and delicious rolled, oven-baked dough served with crushed tomatoes, chilies (hard boiled egg recommended) HABIS--Humus and fava beans topped with onions, parsley, olive oil and two pitas (Hard-boiled egg recommended) LAFAH--Homemade Yemenite pita bread] ZCHUG (Yemenite hit sauce)--Hot pepper, garlic, cilantro and 12 different spices (GOOGLE) (melawah) Alibaba in Upper West Side in New York Metro's Guide to ... ... of brown rice and black beans on Alibaba's menu, a compendium of Middle Eastern fare like koufta kebabs, baba ghanoush, bourekas, and melawah (lightly fried ... www.newyorkmetro.com/pages/details/2434.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages The Jerusalem Report Magazine: Goodtaste : Good Taste Article ... $13.95). We also tried the luscious house specialty, melawah, a pizza look-alike crusted with a thin pan-fried puff pastry. Then ... www.jrep.com/Goodtaste/Article-4.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Lilian-Class ... This food comes from Yemen. The Melawah is a kind of fried pancake but it isn't sweet, it's salty. The Melawah is made of paste and eaten with tomato sauce. ... groups.msn.com/Lilian-Class/classletters6.msnw - 28k - Cached - Similar pages Nadine Abensur's Spicy Warm Potato Salad with a Moorish Influence ... To serve, make a quick imitation of a real Arabic bread ? melawah ? that is difficult to find and notoriously difficult to make (or so I have always been ... www.ivillage.co.uk/food/whoscooking/ recipes/articles/0,,182584_169942,00.html - 46k - Cached - Similar pages Dining in Eilat and the South ... Serving Israeli and International food at Massada Mountain, Dead Sea. (07) 658-4319. Nargila, Enjoy Yemenite specialities like jahnun and melawah. ... www.inisrael.com/helloisrael.net/rrants/eilat.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages The Jewish Agency For Israel: Mag-Net ... As the ceremony progressed, Yemenite food was served, including melawah (light fried dough) and jachnoon (rolled baked dough) with spicy sauce, meat and eggs. ... www.jafi.org.il/arts/2003/march/2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Cookbook: Mediterranean Grains & Greens Recipe List ... Technique for "knuckling" water into dough. Israeli-Yemenite Melawah with Grated Tomatoes, Zhug and Hard Cooked Eggs (Israel). Coriander ... www.paula-wolfert.com/books/medgrain_list.html - 82k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) ("lafa" and "bread") Recipe World ... LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="3583156207"> I believe you're talking about Lafa, or Iraqi pita, it's a common type of bread in the Middle East. ... groups.msn.com/RecipeWorld/ reciperequests.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0& ID_Message=45908&La... - 36k - Cached - Similar pages eLuna.com ... In a hurry? At Busi you can buy an authentic Middle Eastern sandwich consisting of meat and salad wrapped in Iraqi Lafa bread. Lafa ... www.eluna.com/rest/Busi.asp - 16k - Cached - Similar pages Jerusalem ... new people who had never had shwarma (kind of a wrap type thing with meat off the spit and great middle-eastern spices in Iraqi bread called lafa) we wanted to ... jerusalemjoy.blogdrive.com/ - 44k - Cached - Similar pages eGullet.com -> Friday night's Indian dinner ... the precious gravy, and had to buy some "Iraqi Pita" which is the NANiest bread I could ... It is also known here as "Lafa" (and in Jerusalem as Ash-Tanour) it is ... forums.egullet.com/show.php/ act/ST/f/40/t/26101/view/old - 21k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Preparing The Dishes; Yemenite High Holiday Soup Stew Hawayij (Yemenite spice combination) Yemenite Zhug (Ground spices with herbs) Helbeh (Dipping sauce made from fenugreek seeds and Zhug) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 17, 1980. p. C6 (1 page): Hawayij (Yemenite spice combination)... Yemenite Zhug (Ground spices with herbs)... Helbeh (Dipping sauce made from fenugreek seeds and Zhug).. Do You Speak Med-Rim? New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1994. p. C6 (1 page) : BAGELE Puffy-dough bread that looks like a large oval bagel and is sprinkled with sesame seeds. Sold in the streets of Jerusalem with little packets of za'atar wrapped in newspaper. CHELBA Yemenite orange-red hot-pepper sauce. DUKKAH Egyptian spice mixture of toasted and ground hazelnuts, cumin, coriander and sesame seeds. FATTOUSH Bread salad made with tomatoes, cucumber, radishes, toasted pita and sumac. HALVAH Grainy Middle Eastern sweet made from roasted sesame seeds and boiled sugar. HARISSA Fiery red-pepper paste from Tunisia, also used by Moroccans and Algerians. HILBEH Yemenite dip made from fenugreek seeds. HUMMUS Dip or spread of pureed chickpeas, tahini, garlic and lemon juice.\ HYSSOP A biublical herb, similar to wild marjoram, used fresh in salads and dired in za'atar. LABANEH Thick yogurt cheese. MATBUCHA Cooked Moroccan salad of tomatoes, red peppers and onions. "MED-RIM BREAD BASKET" Lafah (Iragi pita); lachuch (spongy Yemenite bread); Druze bread (soft and parchment thin); malahwach *Yemenite multi-layered fried bread); Lahmejune (Armenian flat bread). POMEGRANATE MOLASSES Thick piquant syrup or concentrate made from reduced pomegranate juice, sugar and lemon, used for salads and in cooked foods. SABRA A sweet desert prickly pear with thorny, thin skin'; available in summer. SHARON FRUIT Sweet and aromatic tomato-shaped fruit developed in Israel from the persimmon. It is edible even when hard, and its season is from November to January. ST. PETER'S FISH Also called tilapia, and mousht in Arabic. Originally from the Sea of Galilee, now farmed, it is mild and sweet fleshed. SUMAC Dried and ground red berry that imparts a strong salty citrys flavor to salads and cooked foods. TAHINI Sesame-seed paste. The condiment of choice in Israel and used as a dip, spread and sauce for falafel, fish, poultry and meats. TURKISH SALAD Puree of red pepper, tomato and spices. ZA'ATAR Blend of dried hyssop, sumac and sesame seeds. ZHUG Spicy Yemenite condiment of tiny hot peppers, fresh coriander and garlic. Can be green or red. Also spelled zhoug. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JEWISH PENICILLIN DARE also has 1968, from an interview. Just thought I'd re-check. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) News Journal Tuesday, February 13, 1968 Mansfield, Ohio ...lists on its menu PENICILLIN Home Made CHICKEN SOUP.. Pg. 19, col. 3 ("On Broadway" by Jack O'Brian): Brooklyn's "Home Caterers Wonder Store" (170 E. 16th St.) lists on its menu "Jewish Penicillin--Home Made Chicken Soup." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- PLT SANDWICH Next to Alibaba is a place called Neptune. It serves a PLT Sandwich--lobster, tomato, smoked pancetta, basil, aioli, arugula. A "PLT" with lobster? Usually just the BLT is changed to PLT with pastrami or prosciutto of pancetta. I've not seen lobster in this mix. A few "PLT" cites follow. (GOOGLE) Melbee's... fresh herb vinaigrette Small $5 Large $8 Sandwiches: *PLT, grilled pancetta ... horseradish cream, Semolina Hogie $12 Seafood Salad, shrimp, lobster, scallops $12 ... www.kcrestaurantguide.com/melbees.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages PLT, grilled pancetta, field greens, summer tomatoes, Asiago roll, &8 Ya Gotta Have It! ~ BLT Recipes... PLT. ... slices from a large tomato, halved; 2 large leaves of butter lettuce ** Inspired by the Maine lobster roll, the hardest part of this sandwich is finding ... www.biglove.lvhr.com/recipes/singles/blt.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages (pancetta...tomato...lettuce--ed.) Wine Spectator Online | Daily Wine News | Punch & Judy: New ...... Sandwiches include a PLT (prosciutto, lettuce and tomato) and a savory lobster club on a toasted brioche with crispy pancetta and "caviar mayonnaise.". ... www.winespectatorschool.com/ Wine/Daily/News_Print/0,2463,1673,00.html - 12k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 6 00:34:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:34:49 EDT Subject: Shaken, not stirred (1965); Stir, don't shake (1963) Message-ID: SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED SHAKEN, NOT STIRRED--44,400 Google hits, 25,400 Google Groups hits STIRRED, NOT SHAKEN--3,600 Google hits, 1,760 Google Groups hits This is one of the most famous drinking lines in history, certainly in cinematic history. I couldn't find much on it before a Bond article of 1965. But see the 1963 citation below. Fleming orders his martini stirred, not shaken! I'm both shaken and stirred by this. (PEOQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("shaken, not stirred") 1. Agent 007 Embarks On a Final Escapade By Robert G. Kaiser Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 2, 1965. p. A10 (1 page) : When this last book is read, he will never be back again. It will take a lot of very dry vodka martinis--shaken, not stirred--to fill the void. 2. Not Shaken, Not Stirred, but Programed; Wide Variety of Ideas Covered By Patents Issued During Week By STACY V. JONESSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 26, 1968. p. 51 (2 pages) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("stirred, not shaken") 1. For Gourmets and Others: Sunday Morning 'Brunch'; The Word May Not Be Elegant, but It Can Mean Good Food, at Home or in the Restaurants That Specialize in Breakfast-Luncheon Restaurant Specialties The Stirrup Cup New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1939. p. 55 (1 page) : A more highfaultin' suggestion is a drink called velvet," a concoction of port and champagne. He also suggests what he calls a gold medal, made of two-thirds French vermouth, a sixth kirschwasser, a sixth raspberry liquor or grenadine. This is to be stirred, not shaken. 2. A James Bond Movie Quiz BY FRANK DiLLON. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 18, 1983. p. WK21 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("shake, don't stir") OPENINGS The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1987. p. 152 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("stir, don't shake") 1. Display Ad 11 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 24, 1945. p. 4 (1 page) 2. Display Ad 10 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 4, 1945. p. 14 (1 page) 3. Display Ad 27 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1945. p. 6 (1 page) 4. Display Ad 18 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 20, 1945. p. 4 (1 page) 5. Display Ad 11 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 7, 1945. p. 13 (1 page) 6. Display Ad 46 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 8, 1945. p. 15 (1 page) 7. Display Ad 19 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 16, 1946. p. 4 (1 page) 8. Display Ad 10 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 21, 1946. p. 12 (1 page) 9. ANOTHER WORLD; The Bond Between James and Ian HERB CAEN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 31, 1963. p. A6 (1 page) : "What will u=you drink?" "Martinis," we said. Swiftly assessing the cryptic word, he summoned a waiter with a commanding flick of his head. "Two martinis, very dry," he ordered. "Four and a quarter parts of Coates' Plymouth gin to five eighths of a part of Boissiere, the white vermouth. On the rocks. Noi lemon peel, no onion, no live. Stir, don't shake." (...) If the foregoing sounds like a pallid attempt to imitate the style of Ian Gleming, creator of the James Bond stories--well, it is. The gentleman described above, with whom we were taking lunch in the admirrable surroundings of Scott's, WAS Fleming, the successor to the Hammetts. the Greenes and the Amblers as the world's best-selling author of international spy fiction. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) No hits for "shake, don't stir." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARRCHIVE.COM) Hammond Times Sunday, October 20, 1957 Hammond, Indiana ...to five parts varnish. Then stir DON'T SHAKE it for 10 or 15 minutes. Let.....needed to operate each of them. And DON'T get the idea that just because an.. Mansfield News Wednesday, January 24, 1934 Mansfield, Ohio ...gin, one part Italian vermouth. STIR, DON'T SHAKE. Put olive in each glass and.....j lipves the art will bo revived. You DON'T ?oak up all the liquor j siglit.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- OT: NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ON FEUCHTWANGER & HOT DOGS Lenore Skenazy is a NEW YORK DAILY NEWS columnist. She's a third rate Maureen Dowd (if that's possible). Many years ago, I won the first "Only in New York Contest" by Lenore Skenazy and the DAILY NEWS. When, a little later, I told them that I'd solved "the Big Apple," the DAILY NEWS wouldn't run it and never has. It doesn't get much worse than this. From the SUNDAY NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 4 July 2004, pg. 37, col. 4, "Skenazy's World" by Lenore Skenazy: _It's a fine day_ _to say thanks,_ _Feuchtwanger_ (...) The point is, that very same year in that very same city at yet another fair (thank you, St. Louis, and I'm sorry your date with history ends then and there), Anton Ludwig Feuchtwanger invented the Feuchwanger-wich! This is the same sandwich that Coney Island also claims to have invented back in 1867, but the 1904 story goes thusly: Feuchtwanger was selling slippery, naked sausages and lending his customers whote gloves so they wouldn't get their fingers greasy. Unfortunately, those customers kept "forgetting" to return the gloves, to the point where Feuchtwanger begged his brother, a baker, to invent something else to stick the sausage in. "I'll show them where they can stick it!" crted the brother--his exact words are lost to history--handing Anton a soft, fluffy bun. Thus was the hot dog-without-gloves born, perhaps again. And, in a sense, so were we. (I've got to watch the SECRET LIFE OF HAMBURGERS on the Food Network at ten o'clock tonight, and then I'll kill myself--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Jul 6 00:52:05 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:52:05 -0400 Subject: Shaken, not stirred (1965); Stir, don't shake (1963) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > OT: NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ON FEUCHTWANGER & HOT DOGS > > Lenore Skenazy is a NEW YORK DAILY NEWS columnist. She's a third rate > Maureen Dowd (if that's possible). Many years ago, I won the first "Only in New > York Contest" by Lenore Skenazy and the DAILY NEWS. When, a little later, I > told them that I'd solved "the Big Apple," the DAILY NEWS wouldn't run it and > never has. > It doesn't get much worse than this. Did he also write that column----"Ask Skenazy" ??? :) Sam Clements From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 6 02:16:34 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:16:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That confirms what I thought was my intuition, but being so long out of Philly and also lactose intolerant since leaving I didn't trust my judgement. Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > from a by now virtual native speaker... > > --- begin forwarded text > > > To: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "jimmies" in Philadelphia > Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:36:32 EDT > From: "Ellen F. Prince" > > > >Do you know from jimmies in Philly? > > > >L > > That's what they're called here. That's the ONLY > thing they're > called here. And that was what they were called when > we moved > here in 1967. Some people seem to know the term > sprinkles but > the ones I've discussed this with think sprinkles is > only > for the multi-colored, non-chocolate kind. > > I never knew they were also called jimmies in > Boston. Live > and learn. > > Ellen > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 6 02:23:09 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:23:09 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? Message-ID: How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did too. Ed __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Jul 6 02:36:38 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:36:38 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? Message-ID: When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally redone. That's OK. The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first thing that one encounters on that page. When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where I can input my search terms and parameters. BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me to actually hit "search." Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for terms in the 1999-date archive? Sam Clements From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 6 03:07:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:07:11 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <20040706022309.47313.qmail@web20425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Ed Keer wrote: > How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in > NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North > Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always > called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did > too. I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" until I went to college in Boston. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 6 04:10:21 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:10:21 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Jimmies in NY? > > > On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Ed Keer wrote: > > > How sure are we that the term 'jimmies' is not used in > > NY? I just checked with my wife, a native of North > > Jersey with parents from Brooklyn. She said she always > > called them 'chocolate jimmies' and her parents did > > too. > > I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" > until I went to college in Boston. Growing up on the Jersey Shore (born 1963), "jimmies" was a familiar term although "sprinkles" was far more common. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 6 04:26:01 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:26:01 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: >Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for >terms in the 1999-date archive? I don't see a button, but hitting "enter" after entering the search term appears to do the job. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 6 04:57:45 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:57:45 EDT Subject: Banana Republic(ans); Always room for dessert (1965) Message-ID: BANANA REPUBLIC(ANS) BANANA REPUBLICANS--29,500 Google hits, 1,640 Google Groups hits We discussed "banana republic" in November 2002. Michael Quinion found a citation from O. Henry's CABBAGES AND KINGS (1904). The CHICAGO TRIBUNE has additional early citations for "banana republic"--from O. Henry. The Republicans are coming to New York soon, and I've been hearing "banana Republican." )PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("banana republic") 1. The Flag Paramount O Henry. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 6, 1906. p. E4 (1 page): In the constitution of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section providing for the maintenance of a navy. 2. Money Maze.; MR. FLYNN'S STORY. O Henry. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 13, 1906. p. E4 (1 page) 3. JOHN MOISANT Baker's Boy, Soldier of Fortune Air Man.; How the Youth Who Kneaded Dough in Chicago Not Many Years Ago Led Central American Revolts, Captured Cities and Finally Became an Aeronaut of International Repute Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 4, 1910. p. G1 (1 page) 4. Other 9 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 20, 1911. p. 14 (1 page) 5. O. HENRY'S EXIT LIKE HIS STORIES; While He Lay Coffined in the the Church a Wedding Party Fluttered Up -- and Fled New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1912. p. BR3 (1 page) 6. 2,250 MARINES WILL MARCH IN LOOP TOMORROW; final Plans for City's Formal Welcome Are Announced. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 22, 1919. p. 13 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("banana Republicans") On Language The Word From Eejay; Banana Republican Gosh Darn By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 15, 1979. p. SM3 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Salisbury Times Thursday, February 13, 1958 Salisbury, Maryland ...United Fruit, BANANA republics, or the BANANA REPUBLICANS of yesteryear, figs.....century about settling elections in BANANA republics with Catling guns. You.. Salisbury Times Thursday, February 13, 1958 Salisbury, Maryland ...You could say I was raised as a; BANANA REPUBLICAN, 'meaning that' if.....With no malice for United Fruit, BANANA republics, or the BANANA.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THERE'S ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT--497 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits A popular food saying. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Post Crescent Wednesday, December 01, 1965 Appleton, Wisconsin ...Pineapple Peach Apricot There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT SPARKLE GELATIN 6-Oz.....C 14 DO WE TAKE YOUR PATRONAGE FOR GRANTED? NO, INDEED' Start Your.. Valley News Thursday, November 10, 1977 Van Nuys, California ...Minty pine fluff There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT when it's this cool.....into gelatin mixture. Pour inio 6 to 8 DESSERT dishes and chill until firm.. Times Recorder Friday, May 13, 1977 Zanesville, Ohio ...Minty-Pine Walnut Fluff There's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT when it's this cool.....chairman. Jeffrey K. Risner. organist FOR St. Jaaies" FOR seven years, will.. News Friday, August 30, 1996 Frederick, Maryland ...by number. Of course, there's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT. Christine had a piece.....it comes to martial-arts paydirt Chan ALWAYS delivers. Happily, he avoids the.. Frederick Post Friday, August 30, 1996 Frederick, Maryland ...by number. Of course, there's ALWAYS ROOM FOR DESSERT. Christine had a piece.....it comes to martial-arts paydirt Chan ALWAYS delivers. Happily, he avoids the.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- OT: FOOD NETWORK & PEANUT BUTTER, HAMBURGERS The Food Network had a quiz on who invented "peanut butter." Four choices were given. The "correct" answer was "a doctor." In Andrew F. Smith's PEANUTS (2002), pg. 31: "Others claim that an unknown medical professional in Saint Louis invented peanut butter in 1890." This is the information age. Why does every piece of crap like this exist and flourish? For THE SECRET LIFE OF HAMBURGERS, the host visited Louis Lunch and Hooters. Some secrets. The viewers were uncritically presented with four hamburger origination theories. Then, after that brief minute, viewers saw ten minutes of the host delivering hamburgers on roller skates. From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Tue Jul 6 13:09:39 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:09:39 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Jimmies in NY? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 6 13:22:32 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:22:32 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: Hmmm. I double-checked everything in Internet Explorer 6 and nine other browsers and everything was fine. But I see that IE 6 is no longer respecting the right column, while it looks fine everywhere else. A couple of last minute changes must have done it. The Microsoft exception, as always. I'll add the search button back in, if that throws you, and try to make that right column work properly in IE 6. Also, in the future, you can contact me directly about problems with the web site, rather than posting your complaints to the list. I don't mind the airing of the dirty laundry here, but it might be a day or more before I see anything posted to the list, so you won't receive a timely response. Thanks, Grant On Jul 5, 2004, at 22:36, Sam Clements wrote: > When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally > redone. That's OK. > > The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 > archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first > thing that one encounters on that page. > > When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where > I can input my search terms and parameters. > > BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me > to actually hit "search." > > Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for > terms in the 1999-date archive? > > Sam Clements > > From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 6 13:41:20 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:41:20 -0400 Subject: "jimmies" in Philadelphia Message-ID: From: Barbara Need : Mark Mandel wrote: :: Just a few minutes ago, at a Ben & Jerry's ice cream shop here in :: Philadelphia, I ordered my ice cream with sprinkles, according to :: the option shown on the menu. Working through our multi-part order, :: the young woman behind the counter asked a moment later, "Did you :: want that with jimmies?" I said, "Yes, please.... Did you say :: 'jimmies'? I've hardly ever heard that word outside the Boston :: area." She said, "They say it quite a bit down :: here, too." : Well, except that I lived near Philadelphia for three years (1978-9, : 1980-2) and never heard 'jimmies' for sprinkles. And I would have : noticed, I came down there from Massachusetts. FTR, i first heard the term "jimmies" referring to what i grew up with (in Southern Maryland) as "sprinkles" in Philadelphia. This would have been in the early 90s. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 6 13:50:25 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:50:25 -0400 Subject: Archive-- Am I missing something? In-Reply-To: <003c01c46302$109f0d40$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: Should be all better now. G On Jul 5, 2004, at 22:36, Sam Clements wrote: > When I go to search the archive, I notice that it's been totally > redone. That's OK. > > The first thing that pops up is the form to search the 1992-1999 > archive. While this is valuable, it certainly shouldn't be the first > thing that one encounters on that page. > > When I scroll down to search the 1999-date archive, I see boxes where > I can input my search terms and parameters. > > BUT, I don't see anywhere to hit the "button of doom" which allows me > to actually hit "search." > > Am I just missing something, or is there NO box to click to search for > terms in the 1999-date archive? > > Sam Clements > > From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Jul 6 14:25:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:25:37 -0400 Subject: Offer you can't refuse In-Reply-To: <79.2d91090c.2e1932c2@aol.com> Message-ID: How important is meaning in tracking the use of a phrase? I would think the phrase "offer you can't refuse" from a used-car dealer meant "you can't pass it up because it's just so good a deal," while Corleon's use of the phrase had an implicit threat of violence and death if you said no. So does the fact that one is innocuous and one menacing make for a big enough difference? Kathleen E. Miller The New York Times From chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jul 6 14:54:44 2004 From: chen at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:54:44 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <20040706042137.A52283823F6@rapid.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: More data to corroborate known patterns... An acquaintance of mine who grew up in the Trenton area only uses "jimmies." My husband, who grew up in northern/central NJ uses "sprinkles" but is totally familiar with "jimmies." I, who, grew up in Yonkers, never heard "jimmies" before it was brought up on this list. Larissa You said.... ++Growing up on the Jersey Shore (born 1963), "jimmies" was a familiar term ++although "sprinkles" was far more common. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 6 15:55:30 2004 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:55:30 -0400 Subject: Ms. [off topic] In-Reply-To: <157.38e0dc74.2e15fabf@aol.com> Message-ID: It aroused no such suspicions in me! I belong to AOL, and my screen name bears no resemblance to my real name, for a good reason: you tend to get a lot of unwanted instant messages and e- mail if you give away too much information about yourself (like your gender, for instance). As for this list, it seems to me that knowing a person's name is not at all necessary to participating. For me, a person's right to privacy trumps any courtesy issues unless you know everybody outside the list (which I assume is not the case). Joanne On 1 Jul 2004, at 19:39, LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: > I am the infamous "anonymous e-mailer" who proffered an observation about > whether Ms. was an abbreviation and required a period. It was careless of me not > to sign my email, but I must say I am astonished that my failure to do so > aroused such suspicions of ill intent. Although a member of the ADS listserv for > years, I am unknown to members by name...which, by the way, is Lindsie > Tucker. I'm sorry for having troubled anyone; it was never my intention, you may be > sure. > > Lindsie Jordan Tucker Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. jdespres at merriam-webster.com http://www.merriam-webster.com From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jul 6 17:40:10 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:40:10 -0400 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$2rqf2m@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I moved from Texas to NY, where I've lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn for the last three years. I had never heard of jimmies before the word appeared on this list. Does anybody have a good idea of why they're called jimmies? Another question, why do thieves jimmy a lock? Carolina ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 7 00:36:09 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:36:09 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. There are undocumented claims about "the plural of anecdote is data" form is from the early? 1990's. This is probably a question for Barry or Doug. I searched the NEW, WONDERFUL archives(Thanks, Grant), but found nothing. Sam Clements From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 7 01:01:33 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:01:33 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan used it in a diary of the final negotiations for the Tax Reform Act of 1986 that he kept for Newsweek; I didn't see Newsweek, but this is from the 8/24/86 Chicago Sun-Times. From the diary entry for July 25: <> IIRC, Senator Moynihan used this phrase in other contexts and referred to it as being from the social sciences. John Baker From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 7 01:01:58 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:01:58 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Message-ID: Of course, this is a question for Fred Shapiro. My bad. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 8:36 PM Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. There are undocumented claims about "the plural of anecdote is data" form is from the early? 1990's. This is probably a question for Barry or Doug. I searched the NEW, WONDERFUL archives(Thanks, Grant), but found nothing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 01:41:03 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:41:03 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) Message-ID: (JSTOR) The Contributions of President Richard F. Fenno, Jr. (in Forum) Nelson W. Polsby PS, Vol. 17, No. 4. (Autumn, 1984), pp. 778-781. Pg. 779: Raymond Wolfinger's brilliant aphorism "the plural of anecdote is data" never inspired a better or more skilled researcher. Reflections on Academia (in Forum) A Wuffle PS, Vol. 19, No. 1. (Winter, 1986), pp. 57-61. Pg. 57: The plural of anecdote is data. Ray Wolfinger From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 7 02:16:42 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:16:42 -0500 Subject: Why "jimmy a lock?"--(was: Jimmies in NY?) Message-ID: At 1:40 PM -0400 7/6/04, Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: >Another question, why do thieves jimmy a lock? The instrument (a short crowbar) is a jimmy, so the question becomes: why is the instrument so called? The answer is apparently unknown, but note 19th century cant "neddy" (a club; apparently from Cockney rhyming slang "Uncle Ned" = head). Similarly, note 19th century British cant "jemmy" (crowbar; Americanized to "jimmy"), which I believe may derive from Cockney rhyming slang "Jem" from "Jem Mace" (= face). In the 1860's memoirs of a London thief is an incident in which the author and his pal Joe try to burglarize a home at night while the family is asleep. But the husband--a big fellow--wakes up and comes out of his room towards the two burglars. Joe wastes no time and clobbers the fellow in the face with his "jemmy," dropping him instantly and thereby permitting the two to escape. This sort of criminal context might have provided the start for "jemmy", although, of course, its usual purpose is to pry things open. Gerald Cohen From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 7 03:21:27 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:21:27 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) In-Reply-To: <200407070141.i671fDI5010888@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Nelson W. Polsby PS, Vol. 17, No. 4. (Autumn, 1984), pp. 778-781. Pg. > 779: Raymond Wolfinger's brilliant aphorism "the plural of anecdote is > data" never inspired a better or more skilled researcher. I e-mailed Wolfinger last year and got the following response from him: "I said 'The plural of anecdote is data' some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student's dismissal of a simple factual statement--by another student or me--as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder. Since then I have missed few opportunities to quote myself. The only appearance in print that I can remember is Nelson Polsby's accurate quotation and attribution in an article in PS: Political Science and Politics in 1993; I believe it was in the first issue of the year." I also e-mailed Polsby, who didn't know of any early printed occurrences. What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite -- "Data is not the plural of anecdote" -- in some people's minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 11:25:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:25:26 EDT Subject: "White knuckle" flight (1965); "White knuckler" (1971) Message-ID: WHITE KNUCKLES--12,900 Google hits, 4,090 Google Groups hits WHITE KNUCKLER--885 Google hits, 914 Google Groups hits "I won't deny Plotz his boondoggle on Slate's dime--Tennessee is a fascinating state--but maybe in the future he'll do his homework first and concentrate on states, like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, which, barring a blowout by either candidate, look like legitimate whire-knucklers for each campaign." ---NEW YORK PRESS, July 7-12, 2004, pg. 16, col. 4. "White knuckler?" California's Magic Mountain ride gets in dictionaries? This was added to OED in 1997, with first citations of 1973 and 1976. (GOOGLE) The Word Spy - white knuckler Search Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. white knuckler noun. A short-haul commuter airline flight. Example Citation: "Short ... www.wordspy.com/words/whiteknuckler.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages (OED) APPENDED FROM ADDITIONS 1997 white, a. Add: [12.] [d.] white-knuckle colloq., (orig. N.Amer.), (esp. of a fairground ride) causing or supposed to cause fear or suspense of such intensity that one's knuckles whiten in an anxious grip; also (of a person), experiencing or showing such fear. 1976 Business Week 26 July 119/2 A less extreme, cheaper, and yet often effective course for the ?*white knuckle? passenger is to join a fairly new type of therapy group devoted to taking the fear out of flying. 1982 N.Y. Times 11 Apr. V. 5/3 Stadler salvaged a stroke with a two-foot birdie putt at the fifth, but it was whiteknuckle time again at the seventh, where he saved par from a bunker. 1985 Times 7 June 27/6 Wonderworld would eschew the ?white knuckle? rides but there would be thrills in another mode. 1986 Woman's Day (Melbourne) 25 Aug. 35/2 All you white-knuckle flyers will understand why Bob..put his private jet on the market..when the plane lost an engine and had to make an emergency landing. 1992 Caravan Mag. Sept. 36/3 It has the ususal array of rides, offering everything from the white-knuckle thrills of the Rattlesnake roller-coaster and the Tempest, in which passengers are suspended upside down. So white-knuckled a., having white knuckles; (transf. and fig.) tense from barely contained emotion, esp. fear or suspense. 1973 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Sept. 8/6 He meets local editors, goes on talk shows, flies *white-knuckled in bumpy bush planes. 1989 Daily Tel. 16 Sept. 8/2 [They] open the gate for a white-knuckled sailor in a fat rented boat, who shrieks orders at his wife as she nips ashore with the bow rope. 1993 Saturday Night (Toronto) June 53/2 It felt like an airplane about to crash. The 180 students..focused on the teacher with white-knuckled concentration. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckler") 1. 50 Cities Within a City By Curtis J. Sitomer Christian Balance Monitor News Service. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 27, 1972. p. E2 (1 page): ...Magic Mountain's "white knuckler" playland thrills in Valencia,... 2. Marquette Goes From Mid-Court to Final New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 27, 1977. p. 169 (1 page) 3. Fear of Flying Lists Big Gains; Air Travel Insurance Increases During Strike By Jura Koncius Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1981. p. A9 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckled") 1. WIFE BEATERS and their LOVE LETTERS; Rough and Brutal? No! Warm and Tender Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 2, 1916. p. 4H (1 page) 2. TAWDRY STREET Harold Mac Grath. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 12, 1916. p. C2 (1 page) 3. ELECTROCUTE RUTH AND GRAY; WOMAN GOES TO CHAIR FIRST, PRAYER ON LIPS Judd Calm as He Follows Her. Ruth Snyder and Henry Judd Gray Die in Electric Chair--Democrats Pick Houston as Convention City SID SUTHERLAND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) 4. RUTH SNYDER DIES FIRST; Then Judd Gray Goes to Chair Electrocution for Murder of Woman's Husband Ends Day of Turmoil Blond Pallid and Haggard as She Whimpers at Sight of Lethal Chamber SIDNEY SUTHERLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) 5. DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA; But Pecora Warns on Introducing of New Names--Rival Counsel in Bitter Clash Rule for Trial Is Set Up Defense Lawyers Surprised DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA Points to Early Statement Reads Part of Editorial Denies Reveallng Facts Court Cites renal Law New York Times (1857. Aug 5, 1938. p. 1 (2 pages) 6. NOVELS; ADAM RESURRECTED. By Yoram Kaniuk. Translated by Seymour S imches. Atheneum. 370 pp. $8.95 Memorial candles Of the railss ANCIENT HISTORY: A Paraphase. By Joseph McElroy. Knopf. 307 pp. $6.95 Domestic scenen THE BIRDS ON THE TREES. By Nina Bawden. Harper & Row. 194 pp. $5.95 The private truth THE BOOK OF DANIEL By E. L. Doctorow. Random House. 303 pp $6.95 Reviewed by Steven Kroll. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1971. p. 237 (1 page) : ...Bob's white-knuckled fist..." 7. Display Ad 40 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 12, 1990. p. C14 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckler") Lima News Sunday, November 28, 1971 Lima, Ohio ...A bit of a snap, smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much later.....out of hand and massacre a number of WHITE settlers. Their actions also.. Chronicle Telegram Thursday, June 07, 1973 Elyria, Ohio ...Illinois engineer: and the renowned "WHITE KNUCKLER.V the roller-coaster. "v.. Valley News Thursday, April 15, 1971 Van Nuys, California ...the amusement park balances "WHITE KNUCKLER" thrill rideswith live.. Pg. 11B: Now nearing completion, the amusement park balances "white knuckler" thrill rides with live entertainment and gentle rides for the children, Lemmon said. (Valencia Magic Mountain--ed.) Newark Advocate Saturday, January 11, 1969 Newark, Ohio ...editor of The Steve Pyle, Advocate 'WHITE KNUCKLER' Films Flight Movie.....airport pi-friM; IT POETICALLY me a WHITE-knuckle passenger manager's.. Post Crescent Sunday, November 28, 1971 Zanesville, Ohio ...A bit of a snap, actually. smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much later.....wrons 1 ex-plained. "I'm an advanced WHITE knuckle flyer." said the boss with.. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckle") Frederick Post Tuesday, April 01, 1930 Frederick, Maryland ...the flight. Franklin Roosevelt, a WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who was the first.....all identically painted in blue and WHITE with the presidential seal.. (CAUTION! THIS IS REALLY FROM 1980!--ed.) Valley Independent Thursday, October 07, 1965 Monessen, Pennsylvania ...with the offer of a paper bag on the WHITE KNUCKLE flight? Absolutely not.. Pg. 6, col. 1: Could the airlines lure businessmen up into the clouds in a rainstorm with the offer of a paper bag on the whire knuckle flights? Absolutely not. Reno Evening Gazette Wednesday, May 03, 1967 Reno, Nevada ...into the blue. Your first flight, or WHITE-KNUCKLE trip as it _ known in the.....Kathy Grant Crosby is devoted to tiny WHITE orchids. Rita Hayworth would love.. Lima News Saturday, January 11, 1969 Lima, Ohio ...But that was enough to make me a WHITE-KNUCKLE passenger after that.. Gettysburg Times Monday, July 14, 1969 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...main clinic for the nurses to look at. WHITE KNUCKLE FLIGHT He never told me.....have a baby, and darn soon. It was a WHITE KNUCKLE flight for me after he.. Post Crescent Sunday, September 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin ...RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH 2 (AP) For the WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who must go down to.. From dinkin at SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 7 04:13:21 2004 From: dinkin at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Aaron Dinkin) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:13:21 -0400 Subject: "the plural of anecdote is (not) data." In-Reply-To: <200407070400.i6740Zfm024873@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > Did we do this one before? Or am I just misremembering, having read it = > over at Straightdope, or somewhere else? > > The "not" form seems to be cited only from 1999. A Google search produces Usenet citations of the "not" form as early as 1993. A post in alt.activism.death-penalty is the earliest I found: http://tinyurl.com/279sh -Aaron J. Dinkin From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 7 14:20:33 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:20:33 -0400 Subject: "White knuckle" flight (1965); "White knuckler" (1971) In-Reply-To: <3d.40c18e74.2e1d37a6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:25 AM -0400 7/7/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WHITE KNUCKLES--12,900 Google hits, 4,090 Google Groups hits >WHITE KNUCKLER--885 Google hits, 914 Google Groups hits Curious that none of these involve sports contexts (esp. baseball), where "white-knuckler" has long been used for close, suspenseful games. Larry > >"I won't deny Plotz his boondoggle on Slate's dime--Tennessee is a >fascinating state--but maybe in the future he'll do his homework >first and concentrate >on states, like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, which, barring a blowout by >either candidate, look like legitimate whire-knucklers for each campaign." >---NEW YORK PRESS, July 7-12, 2004, pg. 16, col. 4. > > > "White knuckler?" California's Magic Mountain ride gets in dictionaries? > This was added to OED in 1997, with first citations of 1973 and 1976. > > >(GOOGLE) >The Word Spy - white knuckler >Search Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. white knuckler noun. >A short-haul commuter airline flight. Example Citation: "Short ... >www.wordspy.com/words/whiteknuckler.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages > >(OED) >APPENDED FROM ADDITIONS 1997 >white, a. > Add: [12.] [d.] white-knuckle colloq., (orig. N.Amer.), (esp. of a >fairground ride) causing or supposed to cause fear or suspense of >such intensity >that one's knuckles whiten in an anxious grip; also (of a person), >experiencing >or showing such fear. > > 1976 Business Week 26 July 119/2 A less extreme, cheaper, and yet often >effective course for the '*white knuckle' passenger is to join a >fairly new type >of therapy group devoted to taking the fear out of flying. 1982 N.Y. Times 11 >Apr. V. 5/3 Stadler salvaged a stroke with a two-foot birdie putt at the >fifth, but it was whiteknuckle time again at the seventh, where he >saved par from >a bunker. 1985 Times 7 June 27/6 Wonderworld would eschew the 'white knuckle' >rides but there would be thrills in another mode. 1986 Woman's Day >(Melbourne) 25 Aug. 35/2 All you white-knuckle flyers will >understand why Bob..put his >private jet on the market..when the plane lost an engine and had to make an >emergency landing. 1992 Caravan Mag. Sept. 36/3 It has the ususal >array of rides, >offering everything from the white-knuckle thrills of the Rattlesnake >roller-coaster and the Tempest, in which passengers are suspended upside down. > > So white-knuckled a., having white knuckles; (transf. and fig.) tense >from barely contained emotion, esp. fear or suspense. > > 1973 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Sept. 8/6 He meets local editors, goes on >talk shows, flies *white-knuckled in bumpy bush planes. 1989 Daily >Tel. 16 Sept. >8/2 [They] open the gate for a white-knuckled sailor in a fat rented boat, who >shrieks orders at his wife as she nips ashore with the bow rope. 1993 >Saturday Night (Toronto) June 53/2 It felt like an airplane about to >crash. The 180 >students..focused on the teacher with white-knuckled concentration. > > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckler") > 1. 50 Cities Within a City >By Curtis J. Sitomer Christian Balance Monitor News Service. The Washington >Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Feb 27, 1972. p. >E2 (1 page): > ...Magic Mountain's "white knuckler" playland thrills in Valencia,... > > 2. Marquette Goes From Mid-Court to Final >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 27, 1977. p. 169 (1 >page) > > 3. Fear of Flying Lists Big Gains; Air Travel Insurance Increases During >Strike >By Jura Koncius Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post >(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 21, 1981. p. A9 (1 page) > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("white knuckled") > 1. WIFE BEATERS and their LOVE LETTERS; Rough and Brutal? No! Warm and >Tender >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 2, 1916. p. 4H (1 page) > > > 2. TAWDRY STREET >Harold Mac Grath. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 12, >1916. p. C2 (1 page) > > 3. ELECTROCUTE RUTH AND GRAY; WOMAN GOES TO CHAIR FIRST, PRAYER ON LIPS >Judd Calm as He Follows Her. Ruth Snyder and Henry Judd Gray Die in Electric >Chair--Democrats Pick Houston as Convention City >SID SUTHERLAND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, >1928. p. 1 (3 pages) > > 4. RUTH SNYDER DIES FIRST; Then Judd Gray Goes to Chair Electrocution for >Murder of Woman's Husband Ends Day of Turmoil Blond Pallid and Haggard as She >Whimpers at Sight of Lethal Chamber >SIDNEY SUTHERLAND. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, >Calif.: Jan 13, 1928. p. 1 (3 pages) > > 5. DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA; But Pecora Warns on Introducing of >New Names--Rival Counsel in Bitter Clash Rule for Trial Is Set Up Defense >Lawyers Surprised DEWEY IS UPHELD ON HIS HINES DATA Points to Early >Statement Reads >Part of Editorial Denies Reveallng Facts Court Cites renal Law >New York Times (1857. Aug 5, 1938. p. 1 (2 pages) > > 6. NOVELS; ADAM RESURRECTED. By Yoram Kaniuk. Translated by Seymour S >imches. Atheneum. 370 pp. $8.95 Memorial candles Of the railss >ANCIENT HISTORY: A >Paraphase. By Joseph McElroy. Knopf. 307 pp. $6.95 Domestic scenen >THE BIRDS ON >THE TREES. By Nina Bawden. Harper & Row. 194 pp. $5.95 The private truth THE >BOOK OF DANIEL By E. L. Doctorow. Random House. 303 pp $6.95 >Reviewed by Steven Kroll. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). >Washington, D.C.: Aug 1, 1971. p. 237 (1 page) : > ...Bob's white-knuckled fist..." > > 7. Display Ad 40 -- No Title >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 12, 1990. p. C14 (1 >page) > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckler") > Lima News Sunday, November 28, 1971 Lima, Ohio >...A bit of a snap, smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much >later.....out of hand and massacre a number of WHITE settlers. Their >actions also.. > > Chronicle Telegram Thursday, June 07, 1973 Elyria, Ohio >...Illinois engineer: and the renowned "WHITE KNUCKLER.V the roller-coaster. >"v.. > >Valley News Thursday, April 15, 1971 Van Nuys, California >...the amusement park balances "WHITE KNUCKLER" thrill rideswith live.. >Pg. 11B: Now nearing completion, the amusement park balances "white >knuckler" thrill rides with live entertainment and gentle rides for >the children, >Lemmon said. >(Valencia Magic Mountain--ed.) > >Newark Advocate Saturday, January 11, 1969 Newark, Ohio >...editor of The Steve Pyle, Advocate 'WHITE KNUCKLER' Films Flight >Movie.....airport pi-friM; IT POETICALLY me a WHITE-knuckle >passenger manager's.. > >Post Crescent Sunday, November 28, 1971 Zanesville, Ohio >...A bit of a snap, actually. smirks the WHITE-KNUCKLER. It was to be much >later.....wrons 1 ex-plained. "I'm an advanced WHITE knuckle flyer." said the >boss with.. > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("white knuckle") > Frederick Post Tuesday, April 01, 1930 Frederick, Maryland >...the flight. Franklin Roosevelt, a WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who was the >first.....all identically painted in blue and WHITE with the >presidential seal.. >(CAUTION! THIS IS REALLY FROM 1980!--ed.) > >Valley Independent Thursday, October 07, 1965 Monessen, Pennsylvania >...with the offer of a paper bag on the WHITE KNUCKLE flight? Absolutely >not.. >Pg. 6, col. 1: Could the airlines lure businessmen up into the clouds in a >rainstorm with the offer of a paper bag on the whire knuckle flights? >Absolutely not. > >Reno Evening Gazette Wednesday, May 03, 1967 Reno, Nevada >...into the blue. Your first flight, or WHITE-KNUCKLE trip as it _ known in >the.....Kathy Grant Crosby is devoted to tiny WHITE orchids. Rita Hayworth >would love.. > > Lima News Saturday, January 11, 1969 Lima, Ohio >...But that was enough to make me a WHITE-KNUCKLE passenger after that.. > > Gettysburg Times Monday, July 14, 1969 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania >...main clinic for the nurses to look at. WHITE KNUCKLE FLIGHT He never told >me.....have a baby, and darn soon. It was a WHITE KNUCKLE flight for me after >he.. > Post Crescent Sunday, September 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin >...RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH 2 (AP) For the WHITE KNUCKLE flyer who must go down >to.. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 7 05:21:20 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:21:20 -0400 Subject: Gurgitator (2002) In-Reply-To: <200407011710.1bGbD36JK3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:09 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Gurgitator (2002) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > GURGITATOR--108 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits > > An article in the Thursday Now section of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS > is: "Hot Dog! Coney contest is first bite in the stuff-your-face > season." > Pg. 40, col. 2: "In 1997, he (George Shea--ed.) co-founded the > International Federation of Competitive Eating with an eye toward > becoming the official governing body for 'gurgitators' worldwide." > It looks like Shea coined or popularized the word in this context. > (There are earlier computer hits.) If this thing gets big enough, > maybe they'll hold events like this in a Shea Stadium? > OT, "GURGITATOR" COMPETITIONS I WANT TO SEE: Eric "Badlands" Booker > vs. the Olsen Twins. > > > (GOOGLE) > International Federation of Competitive Eating - TEAM IFOCE ... > ... TEAM IFOCE OFFICIAL STORE : The Gurgitator Quantity: GURGITATOR - > 2002 Weight: 1.0 lbs List Price: $16.95 Get the latest news ... > www.ifoce.bigstep.com/item.html?PRID=1146773 - 11k - Cached - Similar > pages > > Recordnet.com > ... champion will be crowned. The most famous gurgitator will be Ed > "Cookie" > Jarvis, who will fly in from Long Island, NY. Jarvis is world ... > www.recordnet.com/daily/specials/ asparagus2004/articles/8asp.php - > 58k - Cached - Similar pages > > CNN.com - Transcripts > ... And check this out, Fredricka. Actually a magazine called the > "Gurgitator." > An international federation of competitive eating magazine. ... > www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/04/lt.25.html - 29k - Cached - Similar > pages > > 1. Definitions > ... 1. Definitions 1. Gurgitation 2. Gurgitator 3. Warden/Gamekeeper > 4. Gurgitation > Quotient 5. Victor 6. Pecking Order (gate number?) 7. Pecking Number > 8. etc 2 ... > gorge.internev.com/rules.htm - 17k - Supplemental Result - Cached - > Similar pages > > Adventure > ... I kept my eyes peeled for "Hungry" Charles Hardy, the two-time > American > hotdog eating champion and marquee gurgitator at the Snackdown. ... > www.thesquaretable.com/fall02/ifoce.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages > > Bakersfield's Underground Newspaper | The Blackboard > ... normal activity. For those opposed to any sort of physical > activity, > new ???Gurgitator??? over-eating sports will emerge. The ???Food ... > blackboard3.home.att.net/may04/articles6.html - 32k - Cached - Similar > pages > > CNS: February 16, 2004: Big bellies are out for competitive eaters > ... By Joelle Farrell. PHOTO: Sarah Burge Eric Booker, 33, a > competitive > eater, or "gurgitator," nibbles at a Carnegie Deli sandwich. ... > www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-02-16/444.asp - 12k - Cached > - Similar pages > > Sonya Thomas is: "THE BLACK WIDOW" > ... As I asserted before, Kobayashi is the most elite gurgitator the > world > has ever known. I feel honored just to be on the same stage as him. ... > www.sonyatheblackwidow.com/ - 13k - Jun 29, 2004 - Cached - Similar > pages > > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > Japanese oogui > ... Compared to many of his fellow "gurgitators", Kobayashi is not just > thin, he is downright skeletal, weighing in at a mere 51.3kg. ... > fj.life.in-japan - Jul 4, 2002 by Brett Robson - View Thread (7 > articles) > > Good Food, Good Treats, Good Golly, Let's Eat! A variation of this is "Good bread! Good meat! Good Lord, let's eat!" I've never seen it in print, but I first heard it in Saint Louis some time during WWII. -Wilson Gray > ... around the world, six of them women, who compete in its events and > are sometimes > featured in its quarterly newsletter called "The Gurgitator." Most > American ... > alt.bad.clams - Aug 15, 2002 by Frankenclam - View Thread (1 article) > > > (FACTIVA) > NATION > > Fox's 'Glutton Bowl' lures 'gurgitators' with $25k prize ; 'A good > eater is a good athlete,' says international body > > Jennifer Harper, THE WASHINGTON TIMES > 654 words > 18 February 2002 > The Washington Times > A09 > English > (Copyright 2002) > > It is a consuming passion: They eat for sport, chomping and chewing > while audiences howl, judges watch for style and bystanders - well, > they stand back. > > Chicken wings, matzo balls, pickled quail eggs, cannoli, hot dogs, > jalapenos, sushi, pancakes, oysters, mince pie - it's all fair game to > competitive eaters who have their own federation, regulations, world > records and yes, competitive eat meets where less is definitely not > more and the best professional gurgitator wins. > > "It's not about gluttony. It's about competitive eating. This is a > sport. We train, we compete, we have strategies and disciplines," said > George Shea, chairman of the New York-based International Federation > of Competitive Eating (IFOCE). > > "And it's global - America, Russia, Thailand, Canada, England, > Scotland, Germany," Mr. Shea said. "This is a sport of the everyman, > because every man can understand it. A good eater is a good athlete." > > America gets its first real taste of competitive eating when Fox > broadcasts "The Glutton Bowl" on Thursday, a two-hour special that > features 40 contestants competing for $25,000 "in a challenge to see > how much or how fast they can consume," according to the network. > > The qualifying round alone features mayonnaise, beef tongue and > butter, among other things. Fox plans a surprise delicacy for the > finale, which they promise is "not for the faint of heart or weak of > stomach." > > In March, the Discovery Channel will explore mega-eating phenomena in > a documentary called "Gut Busters." > > But it's not quite as crass as all that, Mr. Shea insists. An IFOCE > mandate specifies safety and age regulations, careful record- keeping > and uniform procedures for those moments when one man will consume > 21/2 pounds of mince pie in 30 seconds. > > That feat was accomplished by England's Peter Dowsewell two years ago, > and it still stands as a world's record. > > There are points for "neat eating," a newsletter called "The > Gurgitator" and official T-shirts which read "Nothing in Moderation" > and come in sizes up to XXXXL. Competitors share training methods - > like learning to stretch their stomachs by drinking a gallon of water > at one sitting. > > The IFOCE also finds sponsors for sanctioned tournaments year- round. > > Come November, the group plans a competition that will feature an > entire Thanksgiving dinner. > > A short history at the group's Web site (www.ifoce.com) maintains that > competitive eating has been around since prehistoric times, and while > American eaters dominated the early 20th century, the Japanese now set > "record after record before stunned crowds." > (...) > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jul 7 14:50:23 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:50:23 -0400 Subject: Why "jimmy a lock?"--(was: Jimmies in NY?) Message-ID: Here are two early citations for "jemmy" from NYC newspapers: 1834: [A burglar had] instruments . . . for breaking open stores and houses, and among them an instrument called a London Jemmy (a short crow bar). . . . New York Daily Advertiser, January 20, 1834, p. 2, col. 5 1843: [thieves force] the lock of the front door with a "London Jemmy," or short crowbar found in their possession. New-York Daily Tribune, October 4, 1843, p. 2, col. 5 HDAS: (under "jimmy"), 1848 (2nd 1848 quote has "London Jimmy") GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 7 16:06:53 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:06:53 -0400 Subject: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger) In-Reply-To: <20040707040036.16AB422872@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Fred Shapiro writes: >>> What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite -- "Data is not the plural of anecdote" -- in some people's minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example. <<< To the best of my recollection, I learned it in the negative form and had never heard it in the positive form until discussing it with Fred in private e-mail. Both forms make sense to me, with somewhat different and non-opposite meanings -- that's the devil in trying to draw wisdom from aphorisms. The positive form means something like "Data is built up from individual data points." The negative form means something like "It's unsafe to generalize from one or a small number of unsystematically collected pieces of data." I agree with both, and I suspect that most readers of this list do likewise. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 7 07:14:31 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:14:31 -0700 Subject: Jimmies in NY? In-Reply-To: <200407052007.1bHGiG2uI3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >I grew up on Long Island in the 1960s and never heard the term "jimmies" >until I went to college in Boston. > >Fred Shapiro I, too, grew up in NY and never heard the terms Jimmies, until visiting Mass. and then moving to California in 1966. Rima From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jul 7 19:09:00 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:09:00 -0400 Subject: "big apple: -- miscellaneous Message-ID: A couple of reference from Proquest's historical newspapers from 1928, both explicitly referring to NYC and both from the context of horseracing. They are from the Washington Post, so that the expression had gotten beyond the NYC locality. Fred Shapiro had posted instances referring to NYC from earlier in 1928 and from 1927, but any early occurence of this expression is worth noting. Thoroughbred race horses, which have been doing duty on the "Big Apple" tracks, are beginning to move homeward, according to Charles Meister, jr., who has charge of his uncle's fleet of vans working out of New York. Washington Post, August 26, 1828, p. M16 [Jockey George] Schreiner will be remembered as having been in the limelight around the "Big Apple" this summer. . . . [He had had 20 winners at NYC tracks] Washington Post, September 23, 1928, p. 18 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 7 20:40:52 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:40:52 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's London Times. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 8 02:04:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:04:57 -0400 Subject: the respelling tactic In-Reply-To: <200407031147.1bGPxA2it3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: the respelling tactic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > from today's (7/3/04) NYT, story by Sharon Waxman, "Using a Racial > Epithet To Combat Racism", p. A19, about the documentary "The N Word": > > --------- > The perspectives diverge widely. Young hip-hop artists defiantly state > their right to use the word whenever they wish. An unidentified > teenage white girl explains carefully that "niggaz" is completely > different from niggers and thus acceptable. > ---------- > > ah, the respelling strategy, which gave us "boyz", "grrlz", > "ghey/ghay", and possibly others, where the differentiation of senses > is entirely orthographic. in this case, it's possible that the girl is > an rful speaker and has a phonological distinction between "niggers" > and "niggaz" -- though i doubt it would assuage offended rless speakers > if she told them that she spelled these words differently. For the record, it is specifically the r-ful, "white" pronunciation of the "magic (because of its ability to change the social ambience of any black-white interaction from neutral or good to bad) word" that is grossly offensive. The purpose of the "niggaz," etc. respellings is specifically to block the (presumably unwitting) use of that pronunciation by unassimilated, so to speak, whites who wish to associate with blacks and live to tell about it. I personally am not offended by any (re)spelling of "nigger" that may appear in print. However, I find hearing the r-ful pronunciation extremely unpleasant [Youse know what my dad told me we call youse? Niggers! That's what we call youse. Niggers!], regardless of the circumstances under which it may be used, even when used by another black person. E.g. I found the r-ful pronunciation to be annoyingly common among members of the black bourgeoisie in Los Angeles, though the use of the magic word is not nearly as common there as in other cities, like Saint Louis, my home town. I was having a beer in a bar in LA, one time, when someone came through the door asking, "How all y'all niggers doing?" The bartender replied, "You can always tell a man from Saint Louis. The first thing he do when he come into a place is call everybody 'nigger'!" On the other hand, in Marshall, TX, the town of my birth, the use of "nigger" among blacks is extremely rare and is almost as tabu as the use of "fuck" in a Sunday sermon. -Wilson Gray > > whatever else this is, it's a touching tribute to the power of the > writing system in the minds of its users. and an interesting > exploitation of one of the most frequently criticized aspects of the > english spelling system, namely the many alternative spellings it > provides for the same pronunciation. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 8 02:47:35 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:47:35 EDT Subject: "That's the ticket (for soup)!" (1828) Message-ID: THAT'S THE TICKET--31,000 Google hits, 53,600 Google Groups hits _That's the ticket_ _Kerry picks Sen. John Edwards as his running mate_ --AM NEW YORK, 7 July 2004, pg. 1 headline. A NEW YORK POST "exclusive" yesterday was Dick Gephart as the Veep selection. Oops! Jon Lovitz popularized "that's the ticket!" on Saturday Night Live in the late 1980s. Hoever, its a much, much older term. Does it come for the French "etiquette"? This sound like a false etymology. Does it come from "that the ticket for soup"? Possibly. I'm at home right now and away from the databases Literature Online, American Periodical Series Online, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, and Accessible Archives. I expect that Early American Newspapers will have "that's the ticket," when that database is released soon (in, uh, the second quarter of 2004). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("that's the ticket" and "slang" or "etiquette") 1. HOPKINS AND I GO RIDING ON THE "L" -- ARE THESE THINGS POSSIBLE? A.K.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 1904. p. SMA2 (1 page) LARGE TREES OF CALIFORNIA. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 24, 1913. p. MT5 (1 page): _"THAT'S THE TICKET."_ "That's the ticket," an expression which signifies "that's all right," is derived from the French etiquette, meaning that which is good form. Strangely enough the word etiquette is in itself derived from ticket. The rules and regulations for ladies and gentlemen at court were written or printed on pieces of cards, called tickets (or etiquettes in French) and from this came the word etiquette, meaning proper conduct for all persons. 2. HOW IT STARTED; "That's the Ticket!" JEAN NEWTON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 7, 1924. p. A4 (1 page): This is a favorite manner, in rough-and-ready company, of daying "That's just right--that's the proper way." So typical of what Europeans would dub American slang, it is to the French language that we must go for its origin! "That's the ticket" is a corruption of the French "C'est L'etiquette," which has the same meaning of "that is the proper way." The play is on the French word "etiquette," which means "ticket" or "label" as well as etiquette. In fact, the first is its primary meaning: Pronounced quickly, it is easily comprehensible how "C'est l'etiquette" should have been corrupted by slang-loving visitors like doughboys, for instance, into "That's the ticket," in which form it has found its way to these shores! (CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG) _that's the ticket_ phr. [mid-19C+] just what it wanted, the ideal thing; occas. as _that's the ticket for soup_. [the "soup" ref. stems from the cards given out to beggars entitling them to a free meal at a soup kitchen] (OED) 1856 Punch XXXI. 194 The old ?Stand and deliver!? 's all rot; Three to one; hit behind; with a wipe round the jowl, boys, That's the ticketand Vive la Garotte!..Let them cly-fake, we'll tip the Garotte. (...) 1856 ?C. BEDE? Tales Coll. Life i. 19 That's the ticket! that will just land me in time for Gates. (...) 9. slang. a. The correct thing; what is wanted, expected, or fashionable; esp. in phr. that's the ticket. Perh. from 8; or, as some have suggested, from the winning ticket in a lottery. 1838 HALIBURTON Clockm. Ser. II. xxi. 323 They ought to be hanged, sir, ( that's the ticket, and he'd whop the leader). 1843 E. FITZGERALD Lett. (1889) I. 117, I fancy that moderately high hills (like these) are the ticket. 1847 Ibid. 179 This [idealizing of portraits] is all wrong. Truth is the ticket. 1854 THACKERAY Newcomes vii, Somehow she's notshe's not the ticket. 1866 Routledge's Ev. Boy's Ann. 411 That's the ticket! That's the winning game. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Delaware Weekly Advertiser And Farmers Journal Thursday, September 04, 1828 Wilmington, Delaware ...rifjht now." Paddy did so. "THAT'S THE TICKET for said bis monitor; "Now mind.....of THE Revolution who are entitled to THE benefits oi THE abovementioned act.. Pg. 4, col. 1: (Titled "SCIENCE OF BRITISH FANCY, From a late London Paper."--ed.) "That's the ticket for soup," said his monitor;... From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 8 03:25:01 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:25:01 -0400 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) Message-ID: The word "bloke" = "man"/"guy"/"chap"/etc. has been used in the US (e.g., it appears in AS a few times) but is nowadays more-or-less non-US-an, I suppose. Michael Quinion treated the etymology recently. The etymological speculations publicized to date seem to be in two general lines (both of which are mentioned, e.g., by Quinion, and in Jonathon Green's dictionary of slang): (1) from Shelta or Romany; (2) from Dutch or Celtic. (1) There are two general subordinate lines of speculation here: (a) "bloke" < earlier "gloak" < Shelta "gloch" (or so) (where the "ch" is /x/ like in Scots). I accept the likelihood of "gloak" < "gloch"; the alternative "gloch" < English "gloak" seems less likely since everybody has a /k/ so /k/ > /x/ seems unlikely, and also since we don't have another obvious source of English "gloak" AFAIK. The Shelta word is possibly from a Celtic origin, e.g., from a cognate of Irish "loach" = "hero"; I don't know how likely this is, but I don't have a better conjecture. But is "bloke from "gloak"? I don't know of any good evidence that it is. Shelta has Celtic and English origins, I suppose; if it has Romany origins also, this possibility might also lead to (b) below. (b) "bloke" < Romany (presumably "[b]loke" or so), said to be from "Hindi/Hindustani 'loke' = 'a man'" (e.g., in Partridge). I have two problems with this derivation. First, I cannot find any evidence of Romany "[b]loke". Second, AFAIK there is no Hindi "loke" meaning "a man". Probably Partridge et al. are referring to Hindi "lok" meaning "people" (also "the public", from Sanskrit "loka" meaning also "world"/"place") (as in "Lok Sabha" which is, I think, the Indian equivalent of "House of Commons" with "lok" analogous to "commons"). I find this word in Hindi dictionaries (also Marathi, Punjabi, Sanskrit cognates), but I do not find it glossed/translated "[a] man" anywhere. Comments/corrections are requested from anyone more familiar with Hindi or Sanskrit or Romany (of which there are multiple dialects of course). Anyway "bloke" is not "lok". (2) "bloke" < Dutch "blok" or Celtic "ploc"/"bloc", with more-or-less the sense "blockish person". Of course these Dutch and Celtic words are equivalent to English "block" (the Dutch word a cousin or ancestor, the Celtic words apparently taken from English), and "blockish" can mean "stubborn", "stupid", etc. (the distinction does not seem critical in the etymological-speculation context). This derivation does not seem implausible, but why not derive "bloke" directly from English "block" = "blockish person" (in OED with a 16th century example) instead of from analogous external sources? In the old expression "chip of the old block", isn't the old block really the old bloke? It is not at all clear to me which (if any) of these possibilities has any merit. But IMHO a speculative derivation from Hindi/Sanskrit "lok[a]" cannot be taken seriously without some further documentation (e.g., a transitional form in Romany ... or adopted Hindustani [Hobson-Jobson is silent]). -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 8 04:22:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:22:30 EDT Subject: Golden Triangles; OT: My lobby in NY Times Message-ID: Sorry for the typing errors in my last post. I was losing consciousness at one point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GOLDEN TRIANGLES I had dinner at Tara Thai at First Avenue near St. Mark's Place last night. The menu said its "golden triangles" were famous. Google shows that many Thai places offer this dish. There appears to be no relation to "golden arches" or to Archimedes ("golden crown"). Also, no relation to Pittsburgh's "golden triangle" (see ADS-L archives). GOLDEN TRIANGLES + THAI--110 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE) Thai's Restaurant ... APPETIZERS AP01 Golden Triangles.....4.50 Fresh tofu triangles, deep fried ... with a peanut sauce AP03 Thai Rolls ... cambridge.zami.com/Thais - 12k - Cached - Similar pages NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus, Ratings, Reviews. MenuPages ... ... pretty authentic. Tara Thai is very cheap considering how great their food is. I love the golden triangles and the tofu panang. If ... www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails. asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=2579 - 61k - Cached - Similar pages Bangkok Blue ... something thrilling in every course: the shu mai, the golden triangles, the chicken rendang, the seafood in the choo chee fisherman, the homemade Thai custard. ... www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/ food/97/05/08/BANGKOK_BLUE.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages Fifty Plus Advocate Dining Review from September 20, 2001 ... and considered the possibilities of a variety of dumplings ($4.95); Thai spring rolls ... We opted for the golden triangles of crispy tofu served with a peanut ... www.fiftyplusadvocates.com/yoongtongrestaurant.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Boston.com / A&E / Dining/Food ... We start with golden triangles ($4.95), warm wontons stuffed with ground chicken and Thai herbs and served with a sweet and sour sauce. ... www.boston.com/dining/globe_review/839 - 27k - Cached - Similar pages Baan Thai ... Golden Triangles 30 Pieces $33.00 Crispy triangles stuffed with a mixture of minced ... Siam Fried Rice $51.00 Thai native fried rice served with cucumber slices. ... www.corpcatering.com/catermenu/tumrubthai_cmenu.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) . New Police Curb Drugs In SE Asia The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 3, 1972. p. A2 (1 page): Ingersoll, testifying before the Senate Narcotics Subcommittee, said the police program is aimed at the "golden triangle" border regions where Thailand, Burma and Laos meet. The Thai Connection By LESTER WOLFF. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1972. p. E9 (1 page): Today, the greatest source of heroin supply in the world is found in the "Golden Triangle" of Southeast Asia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OT: MY LOBBY MAKES THE SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 4TH What could be next? My studio apartment on Robin Leach's "Lifestyles of the low-wage New York City civil servants"? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/realestate/04COV.html When It Comes to the Lobby, Everyone Is a Decorator By JOANNE KAUFMAN Published: July 4, 2004 (...) As that great sage and comic Jimmy Durante was wont to observe, "Everybody wants to get into the act." Dennis Paget, president of the co-op board at 225 East 57th Street, said he could retire in comfort and style if he had a quarter for each person who offered "expert" assistance during the building's lobby renovation three years ago. "People I haven't heard from in 10 years about anything started sending me notes, saying things like: `Why didn't you ask me to be in charge? You should see my apartment. It's just beautiful,' " recalled Mr. Paget, founder of Language American Style, a firm that teaches English to international executives. Ms. Marks, the designer, who ended up taking charge of her lobby's renovation, said: "No one wants to be on a co-op board because it's a lot of work. But they all think they're decorators." The changes to her lobby included swapping the boxy-looking industrial entryway fixtures for curved frosted glass. The carpet, which "looked like a rug waiting to be replaced," was jettisoned, exposing the marble floor, Ms. Marks said. The wood veneer on the walls was refurbished and a large container of flowers was placed near the courtyard, she added. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jul 8 08:41:38 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:41:38 +0100 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My thanks to Doug Wilson for his thoughts on 'bloke/gloak'. FWIW, the link to the assumed 'Hindi' loke appears, as noted in the OED - whence I, and I would assume Partridge copied it - as suggested by 'Ogilvie', i.e. J. Ogilvie, The Imperial Dictionary (1855; rev. by Annandale 1883 - the rev. edn became the basis of the Century Dict. of 1889). I note his superior knowledge - my etymology has been amended. As to the gloak > bloke link, it may or may not be relevant that the earliest cites I have unearthed (1830s-50s) spell it 'bloak'. (That said, the mutability of slang transcription can never be underestimated). My only other thought is that while the link to 'block' is appealing, the sense of bloke has, at least in the UK, never been 'stupid' or 'blockish'. Instead, when it doesn't simply mean 'man', it is cognate with the modern 'lad' (as in contemporary UK 'lad culture', 'ladettes' etc. and in the earlier 'Jack-the-lad'), i.e. macho, hail-fellow-well-met, generally working-class masculinity. Jonathon Gree From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 8 17:41:23 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:41:23 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah Message-ID: over on the newsgroup soc.motss, michael palmer reports that he found himself watching a rerun of an Oprah show, the one in which O gives out her annual Chutzpah Awards. that sounds like it might be entertaining, you think. but no. as michael writes: ----- The recipients of the Chutzpah Awards are all women who make the BVM seem like Leona Helmsley on a bad day. It turns out that the Chutzpah Awards are for women "with guts" who exhibit exceptional "audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction" and "turn inspiration into action". Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's they didn't. ----- nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", "brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at all. so oprah has ameliorated the word, keeping the audacity and boldness but losing the arrogance and presumption. maybe there's no place in her upbeat world for people who exhibit *real* chutzpah (or -- nod to larry horn -- chutzpah chutzpah). i think she should have called them the Shero Awards. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 8 17:50:59 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <077FA724-D106-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 10:41:23AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > over on the newsgroup soc.motss, michael palmer reports that he found > himself watching a rerun of an Oprah show, the one in which O gives out > her annual Chutzpah Awards. that sounds like it might be entertaining, > you think. but no. as michael writes: > > ----- > The recipients of the Chutzpah Awards are all women who make the BVM > seem like Leona Helmsley on a bad day. It turns out that the Chutzpah > Awards are for women "with guts" who exhibit exceptional "audacity, > nerve, boldness and conviction" and "turn inspiration into action". > > Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable > traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee > intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's > they didn't. > ----- > > nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who > describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of > Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", > "brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its > definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at > all. It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky writing in _Commentary._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 8 18:06:47 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:06:47 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <20040708175058.GA22833@panix.com> Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2004, at 10:50 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote, about positive "chutzpah": > It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the > etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English > innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though > I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky > writing in _Commentary._ (sorry that i didn't check HDAS. that would have required getting up from my chair, whereas AHD4 is literally to hand. i'm bone-lazy.) well, i say this has to stop! fifty years of creeping niceness! overly good-hearted people are stealing a perfectly good and useful word! what will we call real chutzpah now? harrumph! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who doesn't use smileys From bkane3 at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 8 19:00:32 2004 From: bkane3 at EARTHLINK.NET (Bernard Kane) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:00:32 -0400 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah Message-ID: > [Original Message] > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > To: > Date: 7/8/04 2:06:47 PM > Subject: Re: semantic change: chutzpah --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > On Jul 8, 2004, at 10:50 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote, about positive > "chutzpah": > > > It's not a Yiddishism. HDAS includes this as sense 2, with the > > etymological note that "the positive connotation is an English > > innovation not found in Yiddish". The first example is 1966, though > > I have since come across a 1947 example from Milton Klonsky > > writing in _Commentary._ > > (sorry that i didn't check HDAS. that would have required getting up > from my chair, whereas AHD4 is literally to hand. i'm bone-lazy.) > > well, i say this has to stop! fifty years of creeping niceness! > overly good-hearted people are stealing a perfectly good and useful > word! what will we call real chutzpah now? harrumph! > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who doesn't use smileys Question: Has the derivative adj form "chutzpahdik" made its way permanently into the E vocabulary? Was widely used a few years back, applied e.g. to female editors of coated-stock periodicals. --- Bernard Kane --- bkane3 at earthlink.net From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jul 8 22:36:13 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:36:13 -0400 Subject: "Bloke" etymology (speculative at best) In-Reply-To: <20040708040031.8D6C022868@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Douglas Wilson writes: (2) "bloke" < Dutch "blok" or Celtic "ploc"/"bloc", with more-or-less the sense "blockish person". Of course these Dutch and Celtic words are equivalent to English "block" (the Dutch word a cousin or ancestor, the Celtic words apparently taken from English), and "blockish" can mean "stubborn", "stupid", etc. (the distinction does not seem critical in the etymological-speculation context). This derivation does not seem implausible, but why not derive "bloke" directly from English "block" = "blockish person" (in OED with a 16th century example) instead of from analogous external sources? In the old expression "chip of the old block", isn't the old block really the old bloke? <<< It's a lot easier to get a literal chip off an old block (of stone) than to get one off an old bloke. The block is also less likely to complain. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 9 00:07:41 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:07:41 -0500 Subject: databases Message-ID: Free searchable databases: 19th Century Mormon Publications (Planned to include a file of the Deseret News) http://relarchive.byu.edu/19th/ Ad*Access (7000 print ads from 1911 to 1955) http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/adaccess/search.html British Library Online Newspaper Archive http://www.uk.olivesoftware.com/ Brooklyn Daily Eagle http://www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/eagle/index.htm Colorado Historic Newspaper Collection http://www.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/index.html Department of Transportation Online Digital Special Collections (accident reports, regulations, manuals, etc.; early to late 20th cent) http://dotlibrary2.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_c aafaa Eisenhower Battlefield Communiques 6/44 - 5/45 http://www.lib.byu.edu/spc/eisenhower/ English Online Resources (Univ. of Va) http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/eng-on.html Historic Missouri Newspaper Project http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/archive/Skins/Missouri/navigator.asp?skin=Mis souri&BP=OK Historical Ricks College / BYUI Scroll (College Newspaper 1938 - 1958) http://www.lib.byui.edu/scrollSearchNew.htm Making of America http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/ Proceedings of the Old Bailey http://www.oldbaileyonline.org.uk/ Southwest Historical Quarterly 1897- 1918 http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/publications/journals/shq/online/index.html Utah Digital Newspapers http://www.lib.utah.edu/digital/unews/ From kristen-ted at SBCGLOBAL.NET Fri Jul 9 00:18:39 2004 From: kristen-ted at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Kristen and Ted) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:18:39 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: Hello, I'm writing a story on "First Ladies", pastors' wives in African-American churches for the State Journal Register in Springfield, Illinois, and I am having a really hard time finding out the history behind the term. It's a colloquial phrase. I've tried a bunch of sites with no success. Here is a list of most of them (from mediabistro.com)--I also tried religionsource, faith.com, beliefnet, google, altavista, ask jeeves and various online dictionaries. I do know that the term "first lady" was originally used for President Rutherford Hayes' wife, Lucy Webb Hayes. He took office in 1877. So the question would be how/when the phrase spread into wider usage, specifically into African-American churches. Thank you very much for your assistance. Kristen Schmid kristen-ted at sbcglobal.net AcademicInfo Reference Desk Look for the "On This Day" feature and an excellent collection of Almanac links. Bloomsbury Reference Centre Hits-and-myths collection of world literature, guides to art and "human thought" and a dictionary of English literature. Highbeam eLibrary Research The former eLibrary is reincarnated as Highbeam Research, offering access to an archive of some 28 million documents spanning more than 20 years of publication. Free and premium service is available. InfoMine The Webmasters from UC Riverside claim "115,948 academically valuable resources." We won't quibble with their counting, but the in-depth reference site is a superb resource for the sciences and humanities. InfoPlease This potpourri is a factchecker's dream. Internet Public Library As you'd expect from a site run by librarians, this collection of Web databases and fact resources, is neatly organized into sensible categories. The site is simply designed and easy to use. Sponsor: the University of Michigan School of Information. Librarians' Index to the Internet The Internet, tidily organized into sensible groups by more than 100 volunteer librarians. RefDesk Matt Drudge's father finally has something to be proud of: Mr. Drudge pere's collection of Web-wide reference resources is the best of breed for quick look-ups. Don't be put off by the cluttered layout -- the content is first-rate. RefTools The site looks like a low-rent Yahoo! but it actually is a powerhouse of little, searchable databases. From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jul 9 03:28:50 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:28:50 -0500 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <20040708174141.E76195CB3@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Coincidentally, on another listserve I subscribe to I found, just today, the semantics of "chutzpah" shifting in a different direction in this message from a 38-ish male of unknown ethnicity. >>>>> Growing up here [NYC], I was exposed at a pretty young age to agressive in-your-face expression. The city culture is definitely one that welcomes unvarnished opinons. Coming to Minnesota, it was hard to figure out what people were thinking becuase they hardly ever just came out and told you. It was considered impolite. It's possible that transplants to the city become overzealous converts to obnoxiousness, but it's hard to top a New York City cop or a pastrami cutter at Katz's Deli for pure unadulterated chutzpah. <<<<< Obnoxious directness is not my idea of chutzpah, [Rosten's anecdote of the man who kills both his parents and pleads in court for mercy because he is an orphan illustrates my idea of chutzpah] but is it becoming a common understanding of the term? --Tom Kysilko At 7/8/2004 10:41 AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >but no. as michael writes: >Guts, audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction are all admirable >traits, but do they constitute chutzpah? To the aging refugee >intellectuals in SoCal from whom I learned Yiddish in the mid-1950's >they didn't. >----- > >nor to me. nor to leo rosten (The New Joys of Yiddish, p. 81), who >describes chutzpah as "presumption plus audacity" and (in The Joys of >Yinglish, p. 117) embroiders on this with references to "arrogance", >"brazen gall", and "incredible effrontery". nor to AHD4, with its >definition: "Utter nerve, effrontery." not a good characteristic at >all. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 9 04:22:38 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:22:38 EDT Subject: "World War I, II" in Google Answers Message-ID: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=371070 Take from OED, steal from Fred Shapiro, collect two bucks! Here's the answer: Subject: Re: World War I & II - when were these terms first used? Answered By: actualwolf-ga on 07 Jul 2004 18:39 PDT Rated: Hi Victus- According to the Oxford English Dictionary online, (OED is widely considered to be THE "last word" on matters of English word usage") the phrase "world war" first came into use in 1909 in the 8 April edition of the _Westminster Gazette_ .However, this usage precedes the actual First World War. Similarly,the phrase "World War 2" preceded the Second World War as well, whenused in reference to an unrelated conflict by the _ManchesterGuardian_ on 18 February in 1919. Interestingly enough, both World Wars I & II seem to have been namedas such in one swoop by _Time_ magazine in its 11 September 1938 issue. So, essentially World War I was called "The Great War" or "The War to End All Wars," until the beginning of World War II, which was never commonly called anything else. I hope this answer is satisfactory and thank you for using Google Answers, actualwolf SITES USED:The Oxford English Dictionary Worldwidehttp://www.oed.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 9 05:26:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:26:46 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: Here from AP ... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html ... is the word "wag": <> I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? Is it in any dictionary? Should it be? -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 9 05:33:48 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: IMHO, it shouldn't be in a dictionary. YMMV. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:26 AM Subject: Wag > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 15:24:17 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:24:17 -0700 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040709011448.02f4ceb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: It certainly isn't well-known to me. I read the same quote and was puzzled at his use of the word. If it's an acronym, why wasn't it uppercased? That would have given me a clue. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 9, 2004 1:26 AM -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the > article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 9 15:56:25 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:56:25 -0600 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <000d01c46576$4fcd08c0$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: But what does YMMV mean? (Sorry for not being in the know!) Victoria > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Wag > > > IMHO, it shouldn't be in a dictionary. YMMV. > > SC Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 15:55:08 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:55:08 -0700 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <000901c465cd$49ea2800$f3120b45@vneufeldt> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:56 AM, Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > But what does YMMV mean? (Sorry for not being in the know!) Your Mileage May Vary From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:01:12 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:01:12 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: WAG was known to me. http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=WAG As was SWAG, as Simple WAG, but is not shown at the following. http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=SWAG And, YMMV, a popular 'statement' in discussion lists: http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?p=dict&String=exact&Acronym=ymmv George Cole Shippensburg University From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 9 16:00:01 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:01 -0500 Subject: Wag Message-ID: > As was SWAG, as Simple WAG, I always thought it was "silly wild ass guess". The preferred term in the lab/office where I work is not to have a WAG, but to obtain the answer by rectal extraction (pull it out of your ass). From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:13:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:13:25 -0700 Subject: semantic change: chutzpah In-Reply-To: <077FA724-D106-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: on Jul 8, 2004, at 10:41 AM, i wrote about oprah's Chutzpah Awards. and then, in the same day's Palo Alto Daily News there's a Dear Abby column headed "Taking uninvited kids [to a bar mitzvah] takes serious chutzpah". jeanne phillips, as Abby, introduces the word herself, glossing it as "nerve or gall". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that some people (not Abby) seem to be using "chutzpah" to cover the same territory as non-literal "balls", so that "chutzpahdik" (mentioned by bernard kane) translates as "ballsy" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:22:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:38 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination Message-ID: for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive inferior, care. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that this sort of thing is very unlikely to occur in speech, since it virtually requires pencil and paper to work out From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jul 9 16:27:42 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:27:42 -0400 Subject: [?] databases Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: > >Making of America >http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/ It is important, I believe, to note that there are two distinct "Making of America" sites. The other is http://www.hti.umich.edu/m/moagrp/ Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 9 16:53:30 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:53:30 -0400 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: <31E8E3D4-D1C4-11D8-A91B-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:22 AM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the >generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary >example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from >Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: > >A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, >unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive >inferior, care. > And then there are the unconcerned uninsured, who have less access to, but don't really, care. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 17:11:20 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:11:20 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually find Browning's sentence "kinda neat"--in both literal and figurative senses. (And I'm un- neither -concerned nor -insured.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 9, 2004 12:53 PM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:22 AM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> for fans of the type of nonconstituent coordination referred to in the >> generative literature as Right Node Raising, here's an extraordinary >> example from the 7/8/04 Palo Alto Daily News (p. 12), in a letter from >> Charles Browning, M.D. of Palo Alto, on health care costs: >> >> A 2004 Institute of Medicine report... documents that the uninsured, >> unable to afford health insurance, have less access to, and receive >> inferior, care. >> > And then there are the unconcerned uninsured, who have less access > to, but don't really, care. > > larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 17:21:39 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:21:39 -0700 Subject: extraordinary coordination In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1089367880@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 10:11 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > I actually find Browning's sentence "kinda neat"--in both literal and > figurative senses. (And I'm un- neither -concerned nor -insured.) i admire your chutzpah in devising that coordination, and when i say that i mean it in the nicest possible way. arnold, who finds browning's coordination (unlike your tmetic one, or larry's zeugmatic "who have less access to, but don't really, care") entirely grammatical, just challenging to interpret From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Jul 9 16:17:40 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:17:40 -0400 Subject: Wag Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:26:46 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" writes: > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But > is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the > article? It's a pretty common word among engineers. Syn: onageristic estimate. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:05:19 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:05:19 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our > viewing pleasure: > > consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come > along > and drop your tables > > "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone > can't just waltz into their place of business." > > But anyone can't solve that problem... > > The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone > can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to > say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel > > Just anybody can't baptize anybody. > > People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody > can't give > it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times > > But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on > my desktop and start loading things. > > With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to > realize that > just anybody can't be governor "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by it. the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" examples. i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut reactions. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:26:11 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky said: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >> viewing pleasure: >> >> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >> along >> and drop your tables >> >> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >> can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >> But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >> can't give >> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >> my desktop and start loading things. >> >> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >> realize that >> just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > >i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >reactions. Even reading silently, I read "but anyone can't solve that problem" with added emphasis on "anyone", for what it's worth. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 9 21:21:56 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:21:56 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of the singer): Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? At 02:05 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>viewing pleasure: >> >>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>along >>and drop your tables >> >>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >>But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>can't give >>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>my desktop and start loading things. >> >>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>realize that >>just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > >i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >reactions. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 9 22:33:36 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:33:36 -0700 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 9, 2004 2:05 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >> viewing pleasure: >> >> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >> along >> and drop your tables >> >> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >> can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >> But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >> can't give >> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >> my desktop and start loading things. >> >> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >> realize that >> just anybody can't be governor > > "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have > to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by > it. > > the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have > a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), > which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" > examples. > > i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut > reactions. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) I don't read "But anyone can't solve that problem" any differently than the other examples that seem to have a lurking "just." It seems to me as if "just anyone" has evolved into something like a proper name, Just Anyone, in these contexts. (Something like the ghostly Not Me who crops up from time to time in the Family Circus comic strip?) "[Just] Anyone can't solve that problem." "[John] Smith can't solve that problem." OTOH, anyone probably won't agree with me. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 9 23:12:49 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:12:49 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <200407091431.1bJ2XH57z3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: FWIW, sentences of this type remind of what you would get if you "standardized" a Labovian Ebonic sentence of the the type: a. Can't no cat get into no [pigeon] coop -> b. Can't any cat get into any [pigeon] coop -> c. Any cat can't get into any [pigeon] coop Cf. the reversed procedure: a. But anyone can't solve that problem -> b. But can't anyone solve that problem -> c. But can't no one solve that problem -Wilson Gray On Jul 9, 2004, at 5:21 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: failures of parallelism > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of the > singer): > > Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? > > At 02:05 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>> ...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>> viewing pleasure: >>> >>> consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>> along >>> and drop your tables >>> >>> "A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>> can't just waltz into their place of business." >>> >>> But anyone can't solve that problem... >>> >>> The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>> can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>> say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >>> >>> Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >>> >>> People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>> can't give >>> it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >>> >>> But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>> my desktop and start loading things. >>> >>> With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>> realize that >>> just anybody can't be governor >> >> "But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >> to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >> it. >> >> the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >> a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >> which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >> examples. >> >> i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >> reactions. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:39:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:39:02 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0700 7/9/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>viewing pleasure: >> >>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>along >>and drop your tables >> >>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>can't just waltz into their place of business." >> >>But anyone can't solve that problem... >> >>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >> >>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >> >>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>can't give >>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >> >>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>my desktop and start loading things. >> >>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>realize that >>just anybody can't be governor > >"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >it. > >the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), That's the trick; the "just" of course is a free-choice disambiguator. But I've never been sure what we mean when we say there's an implied "just" (others have said it about (what I call) metalinguistic negation in scalar contexts: I didn't eat {just} some of the cookies, I ate all of them). My sense is that even if English had no word "just" we could get such sentences--on the free-choice or metalinguistic understandings respectively. >which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >examples. > Well, for what it's worth, I get "ANYbody can't solve that problem" in the same way--it doesn't really need the "just", but it does need a fall-rise contour , without or (preferably) with the "just" signaling what's coming. This is noted by Haspelmath (1993/1997), who calls these (= "not just any X") anti-depreciatives; I call them anti-indiscriminatives in a couple of papers I published in 2000. What's being negated here is the "n'importe qu-", "it doesn't matter wh-", or "any old" understanding associated with free-choice _any_. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:42:52 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:52 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:26 PM -0400 7/9/04, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold M. Zwicky said: >>"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >>to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >>it. >> >>the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >>a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >>which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >>examples. >> >>i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >>reactions. > >Even reading silently, I read "but anyone can't solve that problem" >with added emphasis on "anyone", for what it's worth. >-- Exactly, only I would say (indeed, have said elsewhere in print) that it's not just emphasis but the appropriate fall-rise-type contour (sorry, I know I should learn the ToBI notation, but...). Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:45:31 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:45:31 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040709172014.01f4ea48@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0400 7/9/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I'll add one that's bothered me for a long time (partly because of >the singer): > >Tom Jones sings "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." Huh? > Well, "It's not unusual to be loved by someone" doesn't really scan. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 02:55:54 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:55:54 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1089387216@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >--On Friday, July 9, 2004 2:05 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" > wrote: > >>On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:23 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>>...How about these truly negative ones, just googled up for our >>>viewing pleasure: >>> >>>consider password protecting that directory so that anyone can't come >>>along >>>and drop your tables >>> >>>"A customer will feel safer knowing that anyone >>>can't just waltz into their place of business." >>> >>>But anyone can't solve that problem... >>> >>>The Reality as below: anyone can't do what they want to do/anyone >>>can't be what they want to be/anyone can't say what they want to >>>say/anyone can't feel what they want to feel >>> >>>Just anybody can't baptize anybody. >>> >>>People are looking for more substance in the music, but just anybody >>>can't give >>>it to them," Ice Cube told the Los Angeles Times >>> >>>But I still have to know the password so just anybody can't get on >>>my desktop and start loading things. >>> >>>With the fiscal problems we have in Maryland, people are beginning to >>>realize that >>>just anybody can't be governor >> >>"But anyone can't solve that problem" is a real baffler for me; i have >>to stop and work out what someone might have been trying to convey by >>it. >> >>the others are, to various degrees, better. all except the first have >>a "just" in them (and i understand the first as if it had a "just"), >>which seems to improve things some, especially in the "just anybody" >>examples. >> >>i haven't tried to work out what's going on here; these are just gut >>reactions. >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >I don't read "But anyone can't solve that problem" any differently than the >other examples that seem to have a lurking "just." It seems to me as if >"just anyone" has evolved into something like a proper name, Just Anyone, >in these contexts. (Something like the ghostly Not Me who crops up from >time to time in the Family Circus comic strip?) > >"[Just] Anyone can't solve that problem." >"[John] Smith can't solve that problem." > I don't think the "just anyone" as proper name is the right take on it. For one thing, it's not just "just anyone", but "just anybody", "just any Democrat", "just any linguist", etc. etc. Furthermore, as Alice and I were saying earlier, it's more the suprasegmentals that are the key for getting these readings, although the "just" doesn't hurt. Similarly for disambiguating an object "any" in the scope of negation: You can't do (just) ANYthing around here. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 10 03:31:12 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:31:12 EDT Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (1976) Message-ID: PITTSBURGH STYLE + STEAK--209 Google hits, 38 Google Groups hits "THIS CHARRED filet mignon is served Pittsburgh style--meaning it's seared on all sides." --METRO, Weekend, July 9-11, 2004, pg. 15, col. 1. Pittsburgh style? Maybe someone reading this is from Pittsburgh, or is doing a book on American regional English, or is doing a book on food in America. You never know. It's not in DARE. OED is fast approaching "p." I don't have FACTIVA handy. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Rarer than rare, 'Pittsburgh-ed' ... Also I've heard black outside/rare middle called "pittsburgh" style (pittsburghed?pittsburghing?) Anybody tell me how this term came to be? ... alt.food.barbecue - Nov 8, 2002 by J. Helman - View Thread (12 articles) Re: Steaks: Pittsburg Style Okay *now* I'm being flippant....could it be that "Pittsburgh style" simply means too lazy to flip the steak? Now, now, I am a Pittsburgher born and bred. ... alt.support.diet.low-carb - Jun 13, 1998 by Shailagh Collins - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Why GAWD!!! is good ... BTW, blackened in steak parlance is "Chicago style" or "Pittsburgh style ." It can be referred to as black (as in black and blue), but not blackened. ... rec.sport.football.college - May 14, 2001 by Jefferson Glapski - View Thread (40 articles) Re: How Does A Cigar Smoking Man Like Steak Cooked? Pittsburgh Style! Charred on the outside--red in the middle! Done correctly, it's Scrumptious!!! Most steak houses don't have a hot enough grill though. ... alt.smokers.cigars - Aug 30, 2001 by Marco - View Thread (70 articles) Re: Philadelphia-Style hot dogs ... area. It like Pittsburgh-style steak - Huh? I lived in PGH for 16 years and I never heard of a PGH-style steak until I left. The ... rec.food.cooking - Apr 18, 2004 by John Droge - View Thread (24 articles) Re: Pittsburgh Cuisine Pittsburgh Style Steak (charred on the outside, very rare inside) BBQ Chipped Ham Sandwiches Is the Islay's version like this? I ... rec.food.cooking - Oct 12, 2003 by Steve Calvin - View Thread (51 articles) Re: easy tangles ... every man i meet, i'll fuck you till your dick turns blue, etc. so, did you order your ruth chris steak "pittsburgh style"? jestus alt.music.tragically-hip - Apr 2, 1997 by jestusg at aol.com - View Thread (3 articles) (Oldest hit on Google Groups--ed.) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Message 2 in thread From: Stan (the Man) (skid at optonline.net) Subject: Re: Rarer than rare, 'Pittsburgh-ed' View this article only Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue Date: 2002-11-07 05:20:58 PST (...) This is also called "black and blue," meaning charred on the outside,cool--almost raw--on the inside.For the origin of the phrase "Pittsburgh style": Stan (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Progress Friday, March 26, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 14 02. S9.95 Char-broiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....Elliot Hints At November Election Try PITTSBURGH (AP) Frank thwarted in bis.. Progress Friday, April 02, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 1 4 oz. S9.95 Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....Dishes To Choose From Of Cleat-field PITTSBURGH Although long-distance steel.. Progress Tuesday, April 06, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Sirloin Strip STEAK, 14oz. Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.. Progress Friday, March 19, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Sirloin Strip STEAK, 14oz. Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....YOUR Americarri Andersen's, Houtzdale PITTSBURGH Paints SMOOTH AS GLASS Hoiden.. Page 2, col. 1: N. Y. Sirloin Steak, 14 oz. ....$9.95 Charbroiled Pittsburgh Style Shreton Motor Inn I-80 Exit 17 DuBois Progress Tuesday, March 23, 1976 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...Strip STEAK, 14oz. S9.95 Charbroiled PITTSBURGH STYLE Fresh Filet of Sole.....For UMW To Return To Coal Fields PITTSBURGH (APi Thomas Pysell, director.. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jul 10 12:53:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:53:23 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson Message-ID: I have just had the following exchange with Ian Lancashire, the General Editor of Representative Poetry Online, of the University of Toronto Press and the University's English Department. I wrote: #> In looking for the text of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" online I found #> your page (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2116.html) among #> others. Many of these pages, unfortunately including yours, have the same #> error: "their's" for "theirs" in the second stanza. It is not in the #> manuscript (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/britpo/tennyson/TenChar.html). #> #> It looks as if somebody typed up the poem and put it on the Internet and a #> lot of other people copied it without credit and without examination. It #> happens all the time, but it's no less regrettable for that. He replied: #All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in RPO. I #took my text from the original printed edition. He decided not to use the #manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change his #mind? I answered: I am surprised. I am not a Tennyson scholar. I have only known "their's" as a very common error. I can only conclude that either a. Tennyson made the same error, or b. His editor or a proofreader or typesetter did, or b. It was considered correct in his time. Thank you for your reply and further information. I am going to forward this correspondence to the discussion list of the American Dialect Society. -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature University of Pennsylvania From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 15:06:08 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:06:08 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson In-Reply-To: <20040710084857.D53506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >#All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in RPO. I >#took my text from the original printed edition. According to the RPO footnote this printed edition dates from 1908, about 54 years after the first printing. There are several other printed versions reproduced at MoA, dated from 1855 to 1892 IIRC, all of them without the dubious apostrophes. This Web transcription ... http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html ... has the apostrophes and claims to be from an 1870 book. >He decided not to use the >#manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change his >#mind? Hard to know for certain. Tennyson died in 1892. Here is the same issue discussed: http://killdevilhill.com/golfchat/read.php?f=133&i=5483&t=5483 My own casual guess is that somebody goofed in typesetting. But IF Tennyson employed these apostrophes (in some revisions, perhaps) it wouldn't have to be an error, necessarily, nor any standard of the time, but maybe just his free choice or 'poetic license'. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 10 15:22:58 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:22:58 -0400 Subject: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in Tennyson In-Reply-To: <200407100806.1bJjqQ1pV3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: The Charge of the Light Apostrophe, or "their's" in > Tennyson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> #All I can say is that Tennyson published the poem as it stands in >> RPO. I >> #took my text from the original printed edition. > > According to the RPO footnote this printed edition dates from 1908, > about > 54 years after the first printing. > > There are several other printed versions reproduced at MoA, dated from > 1855 > to 1892 IIRC, all of them without the dubious apostrophes. > > This Web transcription ... > http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html ... > has the apostrophes and claims to be from an 1870 book. > >> He decided not to use the >> #manuscript reading you favour. Are you sure that he did not change >> his >> #mind? > > Hard to know for certain. Tennyson died in 1892. > > Here is the same issue discussed: > > http://killdevilhill.com/golfchat/read.php?f=133&i=5483&t=5483 > > My own casual guess is that somebody goofed in typesetting. > > But IF Tennyson employed these apostrophes (in some revisions, > perhaps) it > wouldn't have to be an error, necessarily, nor any standard of the > time, > but maybe just his free choice or 'poetic license'. > > -- Doug Wilson One never knows, do one? E.g. some writers eschew strings on the type, "... wouldn't have to be an error ... nor any standard of the time," preferring "... wouldn't have to be an error ... or some standard of the time." "To each their own," to coin a phrase. -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 17:46:39 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:46:39 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <013901c4654a$492bd090$62bffea9@KTS> Message-ID: >I'm writing a story on "First Ladies", pastors' wives in African-American >churches for the State Journal Register in Springfield, Illinois, and I am >having a really hard time finding out the history behind the term. I believe "first lady of X" generally means "wife of the head man of X". I don't know the exact origin but it's transparent enough that it might have come into common use centuries ago. "First lady of the nation" meaning "wife of the US President" was applied to Mrs. George Washington as early as the 1840's (however it is possible to construe this differently, with "lady of the nation" meaning "President's wife" and Martha being the first of these ladies). E.g., the following would be conventional: "First lady of the US" = "Wife of the US President" "First lady of Pennsylvania" = "Wife of the PA Governor" "First lady of the Soviet Union" = "Wife of the USSR Premier" "First lady of the University of Texas" = "Wife of the U. Texas president" The following occurs occasionally (apologies to the Queen): "First lady of the UK" = "Wife of the Prime Minister of the UK" Note that the term is NOT generally applied to a woman who is herself head of state or university president or whatever. For some reason commercial corporation applications like "First lady of IBM" = "Wife of the IBM president" do not seem to occur [much]. [Occasionally "first lady of X" is used less specifically, like "most important lady of X", but I believe this is exceptional.] "First lady of the church" = "Wife of the pastor of the church" is presumably an example of the same nomenclature. Google search for <<"first lady of the church">> provides many examples, including photos of various ladies. Question: in a large church which has multiple pastors, is only the chief pastor's wife called "first lady"? Is there a "second first lady"? Or a "second lady"? -- Doug Wilson From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Sat Jul 10 19:13:32 2004 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:13:32 -0400 Subject: extraordinary coordination Message-ID: > > arnold, who finds browning's coordination > entirely grammatical, just challenging to interpret To me, it seems crystal clear in print (expanded to "the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to [care] and receive inferior care" with the bracketed word eliminating the need for his carefully placed commas), but it might be challenging to interpret in speech. One would have to be very careful, pausing just right, so that it doesn't come out sounding as if "inferior" is also governed by "access to" ("the uninsured, unable to afford health insurance, have less access to [inferior care] and receive inferior care"). Alan Baragona From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 10 19:26:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:26:51 -0400 Subject: failures of parallelism (disjunctive division) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A related use of "any...not..." to the one Arnold mentioned was just brought to my attention inadvertently by a colleague who sent me a message containing the following prediction about a graduate student from the colleague's country who is now studying in the U.S. (For anonymity's sake, I have substituted "Krakhozhia(n)", a fictional country and nationality in the current Spielberg/Hanks movie The Terminal, for the actual country and nationality in question): He, or any Krakhozhian, won't return to Krakhozhia without a degree. The writer of the letter is a native speaker of Krakhozhian, as it were, but the "X or any...not..." construction strikes me as perfectly natural (if by some standards not technically "correct") English, and led me to google up the following brace of similar disjunctions in which an "any" as the second element of a disjunction co-occurs with a following negation: =========== If he, or anyone, can't play by the rules, they're outta here Now, is there any way to make it so he or anyone can't change my account back to limited? I hate the fact that the guy I love is in so much pain and I, or anyone, can't take his pain away It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 2 to prove that he (or any agent or employee of his) did not knowingly permit he or any member of his family within the second degree of consanguinity or affinity has not been threatened he (or any practising member firm with which he is associated) should not? he or any other man may not set the party so arrested at liberty ============ Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 10 21:12:21 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:12:21 -0400 Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (1976) In-Reply-To: <191.2aff7f53.2e20bd00@aol.com> Message-ID: >"THIS CHARRED filet mignon is served Pittsburgh style--meaning it's seared on >all sides." I surely never heard of "Pittsburgh-style steak" anywhere. I don't think it's clear that the term in the isolated 1976 advertisement has the same sense as that which is claimed in recent items. -- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sat Jul 10 21:25:04 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:25:04 -0400 Subject: Ms. First Lady, not just anybody In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$dd38@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Being an Ella fan, I've heard "first lady of jazz" pretty often, because Ms. Fitzgerald wasn't just anybody, not because of her husbands. (Yes, I write Ms. with a period, as in Ms. Steinem's magazine.) As for second ladies, this article refers to the veep's woman. http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:WE2c9SxEyLMJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady_of_the_United_States+first+lady+of+jazz&hl=en Pretty funny picture of Lynne Cheney is here. http://www.whitehouse.org/ask/lynne.asp **** Just anybody is the negative of someone special, so "just anybody can't hop that fence," would mean that most people couldn't jump it, but Superman and certain Olympians could. Is that how you would read it? ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 10 22:13:56 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:13:56 -0400 Subject: upped/up? Message-ID: On another list, we have been discussing these variants: then he up and died then he upped and died Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the historical present, as in narratives, thus: then he ups and dies not then he up and dies. But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in this entry for up as a v: --- b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or boldly, to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. ? ??(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups and says, that minute, ?Prove so!? 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, Heart sunk inside me: ?Well, pad on my prate-apace!? ?? ??(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ?MARK TWAIN? Huck. Finn xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. 1898 ?H. S. MERRIMAN? Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ?A. GILBERT? Death against Clock 81 So you upped and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we could we upped and fled. --- What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 02:28:11 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:28:11 -0400 Subject: Pittsburgh-style steak (FACTIVA cites); The Fun CIty (January 7, 1966) Message-ID: PITTSBURGH-STYLE STEAK (continued) "Shreton" in that 1976 citation should be "Sheraton." I was tired. (FACTIVA) Peter Citron Bush Leaguers Taste What Bush Ate 1,084 words 15 February 1990 The Omaha World-Herald Sunrise 49 (...) She wanted to know whether the Bushes "made it all gone," and King said they consumed 90 percent of their opener - spinach salads - and 100 percent of their entrees. Bush had a pepper steak, Pittsburgh style, with wild rice; his wife opted for seafood over fettuccini. (FACTIVA) NEWS Peter Citron Bushes' Chardonnay Choice Was Fine 1,086 words 16 February 1990 The Omaha World-Herald Sunrise 43 English (Copyright 1990 Omaha World-Herald Company) WHEN GEORGE and Barbara Bush dined last week at the Marriott's prestigious Chardonnay Room, they showed remarkable self-control, bypassing the half-dozen temptations on the dessert cart. I didn't miss a bit, a bite or a just dessert in an afterglow re-creation of the capital residents' meal (upon which the hotel intends fully to capitalize). Already added to the Chardonnay's nine-page menu (three of them devoted to wine) is a note from Dave King, maitre d', and Bill Tomek, chef, describing the Feb. 7 first family visit: "The president especially enjoyed our rendition of the classic steak au poivre prepared 'Pittsburgh Style': charred outside, medium rare center. The first lady selected our shellfish fettucine, an array of shrimp, crab and scallops tossed in a supreme sauce, served on a bed of spinach pasta." (...) (FACTIVA) The Tangled Ways and Means Of Dan Rostenkowski Phil Kuntz 6,190 words 5 June 1993 Congressional Quarterly Weekly Report WEEKLY 1403; 1404; 1405; 1406; 1407; 1408; 1409; 1410 Issue: VOL. 51, NO. 23 English (Copyright 1993) COVER STORY: Personal, political and official expense accounts merge to support a power-broker's lifestyle After a frenetic day of politicking and legislating on Capitol Hill, Rep. Dan Rostenkowski likes a nice dinner out with his pals. On a typical night, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee will gather with a group of colleagues, aides and lobbyists at Morton's of Chicago, a Georgetown steakhouse where the best cuts go for $28.95. They sit at one of Rostenkowski's favorite tables, near the brass plaque that says "Rosty's Rotunda," next to the flaming grills. They order drinks, most likely a Gordon's Gin on the rocks for the chairman, maybe two. After the waiter rolls up a display cart of the day's choice steaks, the barrel-chested chairman orders his Pittsburgh style - charred on the outside, rare inside. (FACTIVA) VIRGINIA BEACH BEACON DAVE ROSENFIELD, GENERAL MANAGER OF THE NORFOLK TIDES 370 words 29 September 1993 The Virginian-Pilot and The Ledger-Star, Norfolk, VA FINAL 03 English (Copyright 1993) The party's over. For this year, anyway. But what a party it was for Dave Rosenfield, general manager of the Norfolk Tides. His team had a great debut in its dazzling new Harbor Park stadium, drawing more than 500,000 spectators to the ballpark in the opening months. Now maybe this native Texan - who says he likes his steak Pittsburgh style - will have a little time to pursue his hobby (watching television) or enjoy his idea of a perfect day (doing nothing). (FACTIVA) ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT WEEKEND MAGAZINE Shadyside back yard Elbow Room cooks up casual repasts Review by Woodene Merriman, Post-Gazette Dining Critic 752 words 19 August 1994 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette SOONER 23 English (Copyright 1994) (...) Biggest sellers on the menu, according to restaurant management, are the steak salad, a Pittsburgh-style salad with fries inside, and the hot chicken salad, with more fries. Both are $6. Maybe next time. (FACTIVA) FOOD KITCHEN MAILBOX Cake bakers: Don't let lack of eggs beat you 484 words 23 October 1994 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette FIVE STAR L-1 English (Copyright 1994) Nothing quite tops the sinking feeling of facing a deadline for baking a cake -- and finding that the last eggs went into the morning's omelet. When it was developed, Depression Cake was the solution to an even more distressing problem: bad times when there were no eggs at all. And Wacky Cake is an apt solution for kids who like to cook -- but not wash dishes. Answering a request from John Van Horn of Bethel Park, Paul J. Steliotes, the manager of The Colony Restaurant, Mt. Lebanon, explains the origin of steak prepared "Pittsburgh" style: A customer requested a steak rare. The chef, by accident, charred the outside of the filet mignon nearly black while the inside remained red. The waiter explained to the customer that the chef prepared her steak "Pittsburgh" style. The Colony to this day prepares steaks "Pittsburgh" style at the request of the customer. (FACTIVA) FOOD Seven wonders Longstanding Pittsburgh restaurants that haven't lost their touch Woodene Merriman, Assistant to the Editor, Post-Gazette 2,721 words 27 August 1995 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette FIVE STAR H-8 English (Copyright 1995) (...) The Colony -- 1958 Some of the mature-looking waiters at The Colony were busboys back when Dean Steliotes opened the restaurant in 1958. The menu consisted of lobster tail, sirloin steak and filet mignon. Son Paul, who runs the steakhouse now, remembers that people said it was too expensive and wouldn't last. Complete dinners were about $8. The Colony still has the Lazy Susans with a selection of toppings for salads and a pastry tray with tempting desserts. You can still have your steak "Pittsburgh style" -- black on the outside and red inside -- which Paul thinks started here. But if you want the signature Colony steak sauce, so successful that it's now sold in supermarkets, I guess you have to ask. We weren't offered any. The biggest seller on the menu today is filet mignon, but a strip steak or sirloin has more marbling and more flavor, Paul believes. I agree. His Honor has ordered the filet, and I'm having the sirloin, so we can compare. Both are an inch and a half thick, grilled to perfection. But I do think the sirloin has slightly more flavor than the filet. It doesn't even occur to us to ask for the famous steak sauce; the beef needs no enhancement. I like being able to choose my own salad toppings and ladle on the capers and blue cheese dressing with abandon. Strangely, the rolls served with the salads are cold, but warm buttery rolls of a different variety come with the entrees. Another Colony tradition is the lavish fruit tray -- pineapple, honeydew, cantaloupe, dates, figs, you name it. That's plenty of dessert for us. The Colony has an extensive, pricey wine list. His Honor has chosen a 1992 Chateau Souverain merlot. At $27, it's about the cheapest on the list. The restaurant is dim and quiet, though most of the tables are filled on this weekday. It has an old-time, but yes, solid and established look. Complete dinners are $21 and up. The Colony, corner of Greentree and Cochran roads, Scott; 561-2060. (FACTIVA) ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT LITTLE BITES [ LITTLE BITES ] 520 words 5 October 2001 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette SOONER 28 English (Copyright 2001) (...) Pittsburgh rare Jeff Ehland of Baldwin Borough says the expression "Pittsburgh style" for a steak that's grilled so it's black outside and rare inside has spread to two restaurants he's encountered: Carolina Roadhouse in Myrtle Beach, S.C., and the Warsaw in Dallas, Texas. (Earlier I had mentioned seeing "Pittsburgh rare" at the Weber Grill near Chicago.) "Can you tell me how the Pittsburgh style got started and where in Pittsburgh I can get a steak prepared Pittsburgh style?" Ehland asked. Pittsburgh Steak Co., 1924 E. Carson St., South Side, for one, offers steak Pittsburgh rare -- pan-seared on each side so it's charred on the outside, but still has a cold rare center. Chef George Sotirake says it was started by big, burly steelworkers who carried meat, perhaps a steak, with them to the mills instead of a little bag lunch with a baloney sandwich. They would throw the meat onto the hot steel to blacken it on one side, then the other, and lunch was ready. Any different opinions? Drop a line Woodene Merriman can be reached by e-mail at wmerriman at post- gazette.com, or by writing to her at the Post-Gazette, 34 Boulevard of the Allies, Pittsburgh 15222. As dining critic, she eats at restaurants at least twice before reviewing. She tries to remain anonymous, and the Post-Gazette pays for all meals. WEEKEND MAG (FACTIVA) The Independent Consumer - Steak on a plate... By Caroline Stacey. 1,646 words 26 January 2002 The Independent - London 17 (...) As well as rare, medium and well done, some steak lovers insist on having their steak black and blue, or Pittsburgh style - cooked at such a high temperature that it's almost black on the outside and so barely cooked that it's dark red within. Christopher Gilmore, the owner of the two Christopher's grills in London, won't eat it any other way. (FACTIVA) WAR IN THE GULF: HOMEFRONT: HOMECOMING: Parents, Lithia Springs eager to see pilot MARK BIXLER Staff 914 words 15 April 2003 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Home A8 (...) His parents plan to serve him a dinner of steak cooked "Pittsburgh" style, charred on the outside but rare inside, just the way he likes it. They'll bake potatoes and pour Dr. Pepper, one of his favorites. He's invited to a celebration in the football stadium at Douglas County High School, his alma mater. Organizers say they will schedule it for a few days after Young comes home. They want to give him and his family time to catch up. -------------------------------------------------------------- THE FUN CITY Unfortunately, my "Fun City" citation from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE is in the old ADS-L archives, no longer available. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. Anyone have it? In the meantime, here's another "Fun City" that I hadn't posted. 7 January 1966, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, pg. 13, col. 1: _Dick Schaap_ _The Fun City_ Not long after the transit strike began the other day, Mayor John Lindsay went on radio and television to announce that New York is a fun city. He certainly has a wonderful sense of humor. A little whole later, Lindsay cheerfully walked four miles from his hotel room to City Hall, a gesture which proved that the fun city had a fun Mayor. The funniest thing was that New Yorkers actually were finding humor in the absence of buses and subways. One citizen was very concerned that the pickpockets and muggers, the true New Yorkers, he called them, would get out of shape. He offered to give them a room where they could practice on each other for the duration of the crisis. (...) The New Yorkers' sense of humor spread out of town. In Philadelphia, nearly everyone was talking about the contest in which first prize was one week in New York and second prize was two weeks in New York. (...) (See the ADS-L archives for "one week" and "two weeks" and the Philadelphia origin of that joke--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 11 03:11:27 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:11:27 -0400 Subject: Ms. First Lady, not just anybody In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040710171255.02028f10@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: At 5:25 PM -0400 7/10/04, Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: >Being an Ella fan, I've heard "first lady of jazz" pretty often, because >Ms. Fitzgerald wasn't just anybody, not because of her husbands. (Yes, I >write Ms. with a period, as in Ms. Steinem's magazine.) > >As for second ladies, this article refers to the veep's woman. >http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:WE2c9SxEyLMJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady_of_the_United_States+first+lady+of+jazz&hl=en > >Pretty funny picture of Lynne Cheney is here. >http://www.whitehouse.org/ask/lynne.asp not particularly authorized, but amusing >Just anybody is the negative of someone special, so "just anybody can't hop >that fence," would mean that most people couldn't jump it, but Superman and >certain Olympians could. Is that how you would read it? Essentially, although I'm not entirely comfortable with calling "just anybody" the negative of "someone special". But the two are definitely opposed in the sense you intend. The former presupposes that it doesn't matter who, while the latter (or, even more obviously, "not just anybody") asserts that it does indeed matter. Whence the labels I mentioned earlier: "indiscriminative" vs. "anti-indiscriminative". Notice that the anti-indiscriminative also occurs in the frame of "Chris isn't just any (old) linguist"--i.e. Chris is a linguist, but a "special" one in some contextually given sense; entirely distinct from "Chris isn't any linguist." In this context, the non-negative version, "Chris is (just) any (old) linguist", is virtually impossible. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 11 03:37:57 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:37:57 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:13 PM -0400 7/10/04, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > >then he up and died >then he upped and died > >Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I >commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is >really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the >historical present, as in narratives, thus: > >then he ups and dies > >not > >then he up and dies. > >But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with >died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in >this entry for up as a v: > >--- >b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or >boldly, >to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. >? >??(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must >mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups >and says, that minute, ?Prove so!? 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. >Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, >Heart sunk inside me: ?Well, pad on my prate-apace!? >?? >??(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's >insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ?MARK TWAIN? Huck. Finn >xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. >1898 ?H. S. MERRIMAN? Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that >served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS >Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as >would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's >cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ?A. GILBERT? Death against Clock 81 So you upped >and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote >I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no >good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we >could we upped and fled. >--- > >What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > I don't object to it either--I would expect both "up and died" and "upped and died" to be amply instantiated. The former wins the google-off, 13,000 to 294, but the latter isn't too shabby. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 03:53:30 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:53:30 -0400 Subject: Metcalf, Nunberg books; New Yorker & Tar Beach; Black Russian (1957) Message-ID: ALAN METCALF, GEOFFREY NUNBERG BOOKS Look out, Bill Clinton!!!!!!! (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/magazine/11ONLANGUAGE.html ON LANGUAGE Wordnerd Watch By WILLIAM SAFIRE Published: July 11, 2004 (...) To each book comes its season, and now is the time for ''Presidential Voices: Speaking Styles from George Washington to George W. Bush'' ($13 paperback, Houghton Mifflin) by Allan Metcalf, the respected philologist and longtime stalwart of the American Dialect Society. We members of the Judson Welliver Society of former White House speechwriters (Welliver was the first, for Harding and Coolidge) lap this stuff up. In a chapter on ''Presidents as Neologists'' -- words or phrases coined by or, more often, popularized by presidents -- Metcalf includes John Adams's adoption of the Algonquian word caucus; Jefferson's electioneering, countervailing and public relations; Theodore Roosevelt's lunatic fringe and probably nail jelly to the wall. F.D.R., while in college, provided the first instance of cheerleader, and Lincoln is credited with Michigander. (The author might have added Abe's ''That is cool'' in his Cooper Union speech, meaning ''ironically desirable.'' Though environed by difficulty, he was clearly ahead of his time.) President 43 coined misunderestimate and will be remembered for his embetterment of mankind. (The word-processing demon in my computer keeps trying to change that to embitterment. A preferred form of reportorial inclusion in a military unit would be embedderment.) Metcalf's work on presidential style, including passages useful to students of bloviation as well as inspiration, includes the inescapable mispronunciation of nuclear as ''nucular,'' committed by Eisenhower and George W., and as ''noo-kee-uh'' by Carter -- which brings us to: ''Going Nucular: Language, Politics and Culture in Confrontational Times'' ($19 hardcover, PublicAffairs), by Geoffrey Nunberg, professor of linguistics at Stanford. He cannot figure out why Bush keeps treating nuclear ''as if it had the same suffix as words like molecular and particular. It's the same process that turns lackadaisical into laxadaisical and chaise longue into chaise lounge.'' Nunberg's book, mainly a compilation of his commentaries on National Public Radio's ''Fresh Air,'' refreshingly deals with what is called in rhetoric polysyndeton, a word based on the Greek for ''using many connectives,'' like ''here and there and everywhere.'' He observes that the use of conjunctions rather than commas for drum-like dramatic effect is done more often by conservative writers. For every liberal Molly Ivins writing, ''We will have another surge of progressivism and reform and hell-raising and fun and justice,'' there are four or five conservatives like Peggy Noonan writing, ''You want to really feel it and experience it and smell it and touch it and thank God for it.'' (...) -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORKER (continued) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/nyregion/thecity/11ctycxn.html Correction Published: July 11, 2004 A report in the F.Y.I. column last Sunday about places in Manhattan where George Washington and other early national leaders lived credited Washington incorrectly with coining the term "New Yorker." A 1756 letter by Washington was not the first published work in which it appeared. It was used in an article in The Pennsylvania Gazette in 1746. ("Barry Popik"?--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------------- TAR BEACH I told you someone asked about this. They should consult me more! (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/nyregion/thecity/11fyi.html F.Y.I. Sun but No Sand By MICHAEL POLLAK Published: July 11, 2004 Q. When did "tar beach" become part of the New York language? And is there a particular rooftop that owns the distinction of being the first so named? A. "Tar beach," as all roof rats know, is the urban alternative to the Hamptons on a hot summer day; it's as near as the flight of stairs outside the apartment door. The 1930's seem likely as a birth date, because it was around then that the suntan became fashionable for the masses. According to "The City in Slang" by Irving Lewis Allen, getting a tan on tar beach was often the preparation for a trip to Coney Island. "By the 1940's,'' he wrote, "city rooftops, those ersatz beaches, were given the fictitious place name tar beach, alluding to the black tarred and graveled rooftops." The earliest recorded appearance of the phrase in this newspaper was on Aug. 30, 1941, in an article about a man who was growing 12 ears of corn, tomato plants, green peas and radishes along with colorful blooms on his tenement rooftop at 137 East 33rd Street. The grower, William H. Geis, a rayon salesman, had decorated the place with bamboo screens, deck chairs and cocoa matting. "An Eden Is Found on East Side Roof," the headline read. But probably the quintessential Tar Beach is in the collection of the Guggenheim Museum. This one is a story quilt created by the artist Faith Ringgold, who later wrote a book based on the images called "Tar Beach." The story is about a little girl in the Harlem of the 1930's who floats over the roof of her tenement, where her parents eat, laugh and tell stories why she and her little brother lie on a mattress, dreaming that the whole city is theirs. -------------------------------------------------------------- BLACK RUSSIAN I spotted another citation and decided to re-check. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Black Russian" + "Kahlua") Sheboygan Press Friday, June 03, 1960 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...are serving a drink called the "BLACK RUSSIAN." It's a con: coction of.....vodka and KAHLUA, a ,liqueur made out of coffee.. Indiana Evening Gazette Saturday, June 04, 1960 Indiana, Pennsylvania ...are serving a drink called the "BLACK RUSSIAN." It's a concoction of.....vodka and KAHLUA, a liqueur made out of coffee.. Press Gazette Friday, September 28, 1962 Hillsboro, Ohio ...water and top with sprigs of mint. B BLACK RUSSIAN Pour: oz. Old Mr. Boston.....Vodka oz. KAHLUA (Coffee Liqueur) JJ On ice cuba.. Gettysburg Times Wednesday, August 22, 1962 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...and top with sprigs, of mint. fjTj BLACK RUSSIAN Pour: or. Old Mr. Boston.....Vodka oz. KAHLUA (Coffee Liqueur) On ice cubes in.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAN NEWSPAPERS) ("Black Russian" + "Kahlua") 1. Display Ad 26 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26, 1957. p. A8 (1 page): THE BLACK RUSSIAN IS SUBVERSIVE! It's a menace to an unhappy state of mind. Vodka and KAHLUA over ice...and goodbye to let-down and lassitude. Next time out, ask the waiter to undermine your dark mood with a BLACK RUSSIAN! (KAHLUA ad--ed.) 2. Display Ad 30 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 7, 1958. p. A8 (1 page) 3. Display Ad 35 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 10, 1958. p. A10 (1 page) 4. Display Ad 30 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 24, 1958. p. A8 (1 page) 5. Display Ad 29 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 4, 1958. p. A11 (1 page) 6. On the Town ...By Paul Herron. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 5, 1959. p. H6 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 04:40:04 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:40:04 -0400 Subject: Pit Master/Pitmaster (1968) Message-ID: PITMASTERS--2,270 Google hits, 168 Google Groups hits PIT MASTERS--2,740 Google hits, 35 Google Groups hits Pitmaster--not in OED Pit Master--not in OED _Prospect Park pitmasters say it's a guy's job_ --SUNDAY NEW YORK POST, Food, 11 July 2004, pages 104-105 OED is not the pits? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pitmaster"--only 8 hits) 1. THE SOCIAL WORLD.; EVENTS OF INTEREST FOLLOWING THE NEW YEAR FESTIVAL. Miss Grundy's Gleanings -- Receptions and Entertainment -- The Winter Gaieties of the Capital -- Personal Men- tion and Minor Notes. MISS GRUNDY.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 7, 1883. p. 2 (1 page) 2. NEW YORK MAIL COMES BY AIR IN NINE HOURS; First Plane Leaves at 5:15 and Arrives at 12:58. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 2, 1919. p. 11 (1 page) 3. Classified Ad 26 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 29, 1952. p. A25 (1 page) 4. Classified Ad 29 -- No Title The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 13, 1961. p. D2 (1 page) 5. WHOLE WHOG BY ELLEN FICKLEN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1986. p. SM23 (1 page) 6. Diner's Journal FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 1993. p. C27 (1 page): They have engaged a pitmaster from Kansas City, Mo., to oversee the barbecue. 7. Northern Variations on Southern Themes; In These Parts, the Quest for Tender Ribs and a Spicy Sauce Requires Stamina. It Also Pays Off. By ERIC ASIMOV. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1995. p. NJ4 (1 page): A little cautionary context: In their own way, barbecue purists are as particular as wine snobs. The meat has to be cooked over just the right kind of wood, preferably by an aged pitmaster whose meat is tender but whose accent is impenetrable. 8. EATING OUT New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1997. p. E42 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pit master"--33 hits) 1. THE WHEAT PIT'S MASTER; TWENTY-FIVE CENTS ADDED TO THE PRICE. B.P. HUTCHINSON IN FULL CONTROL IN CHIGAGO, AND PREDICTING A RISE TO $2 BY SATURDAY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1888. p. 1 (1 page) 2. BEARS ARE PIT MASTERS; ALL MARKEETS LOWER UNDER THE PRESSURE OF SELLING Range of Active Futures. Russian Gossip Bullish. Export Bids Out of Line. Weather Downs Corn Values. Big Pressure on Oats. Provisions Lose Early Support. Rye Market Is Dull. GRAIN INSPECTION. Range of Indemnities. Primary Movement. Cash Produce Transactions. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 21, 1906. p. 11 (1 page) 3. BOTH FIGHTERS IN FINE SHAPE.; Memsie and McCarthy Keep Up Their Training; Bohemian's Nose Is Mended After Bad Break; Big Workouts at the Camps of Boxers Today. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 21, 1911. p. VII9 (1 page) 4. CANADA'S INDUSTRIAL ACTS.; Disinterested Investigation Prevents Strikes. Voluntary Requests for Mediation in Trades Outside Act. Labor Unions Like Lemieux Law. CANADA'S INDUSTRIAL ACT. ETHELBERT STEWART. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 2, 1912. p. VI7 (2 pages) 5. Classified Ad 6 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1940. p. A19 (1 page) 6. Classified Ad 3 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 5, 1943. p. B8 (1 page) 7. RALLY BY GRAVELY PUTS OUT CHAPMAN; His Birdie on 22d Hole Wins in First Round of Amateur Golf at Pinehurst New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1946. p. 37 (1 page) 8. Other 37 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1957. p. C4 (1 page) 9. Classified Ad 120 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1957. p. 65 (1 page) 10. Classified Ad 17 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 16, 1958. p. R9 (1 page) 11. Classified Ad 8 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 27, 1960. p. D6 (1 page) 12. Classified Ad 939 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1963. p. R31 (1 page) 13. Classified Ad 9 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1969. p. C (1 page) 14. Display Ad 465 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 19, 1973. p. 337 (1 page) 15. Classified Ad 60 -- No Title The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 19, 1973. p. D64 (1 page) 16. Display Ad 923 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 1975. p. 218 (1 page) 17. Other 6 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1979. p. E2 (1 page) 18. Classified Ad 48 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 30, 1980. p. K14 (1 page) 19. Classified Ad 12 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 5, 1983. p. D12 (1 page) 20. Classified Ad 3 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 6, 1987. p. B9 (1 page) 21. Classified Ad 23 -- No Title The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 7, 1987. p. G32 (1 page) 22. Classified Ad 63 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1988. p. R26 (1 page) 23. Display Ad 134 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 25, 1990. p. E17 (1 page) 24. $25 and Under Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 8, 1992. p. C23 (1 page): He is a 55-year-old Briton who is a hairdresser by training but a pit man by choice, and has unorthodox ideas about where to open restaurants. (...) In Texas, the barbecuing meat of choice is beef brisket, and brisket is the savory evidence of the pit master's skill at Stick to Your Ribs. 25. Sealing in the Flavor With Aromatic Blends of Secret Rubs By JOHN WILLOUGHBY and CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 1, 1993. p. C3 (1 page) 26. $25 and Under Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 22, 1994. p. C21 (1 page) 27. Barbecue: The (Unwritten) Lore of the Land By JOHN WILLOUGHBY And CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 18, 1994. p. C3 (1 page) 28. Classified Ad 50 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1994. p. W5 (1 page) 29. Giving Dinner a Long, Lazy Day in the Oven; Dinner's Long, Lazy Day in the Oven By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 28, 1998. p. F1 (2 pages) 30. Can't Wait Till Summer to Barbecue? Read On; Slow cooking, a low flame and liquid smoke do the trick. By JOHN WILLOUGHBY and CHRIS SCHLESINGER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 17, 1999. p. F3 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("pit masters") Appleton Post Crescent Wednesday, January 12, 1921 Appleton, Wisconsin ...match will be particularly Init will PIT MASTERS and the scissors hold.....wrestling team a powerful blow to the PIT of the stomach last night when.. Newark Advocate Monday, September 16, 1968 Newark, Ohio ...Robert L. Greenwell will be barbecue PIT MASTERS Sunday while Jaycee sub.. Newark Advocate Friday, September 20, 1968 Newark, Ohio ...when the first chickens turned out by PIT MASTERS Barley Oiler and Rob ert.. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Legends of Texas barbecue : recipes and recollections from the pit masters / Author: Walsh, Robb. Publication: San Francisco, Calif. : Andover : Chronicle ; Ragged Bears, 2002 Document: English : Book From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 05:55:39 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:55:39 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ---Walt Whitman Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) I e-mailed the SUN that the quote surely has the wrong date. I told them that the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE is available, free, full-text online. Also, the first baseball game was not on June 19,1846--the EAGLE has 1845! Of course, there was no response and no correction. The quotation is quite popular on web. It's been everywhere from Ken Burns's BASEBALL to the halls of Congress to some publication called "A Way With Words" by Dave Wilton. "Baseball" is a clue. It would be "base ball" in 1846. There is a baseball citation in 1889, but it's different! Help us, Fred Shapiro! (GOOGLE) http://federalistnavy.com/poetry/WALTWHITMAN1819-1892hall/messages/119.html Posted by Lord Dragon on April 20, 19103 at 10:09:31: In Reply to: "I see great things in baseball." posted by Montgomery Evans on June 17, 1998 at 10:17:31: It's from With Walt Whitman in Camden by Horace Traubel, vol.4, 508 (GOOGLE) [PDF] A Way With Words, April 2002, Vol. 1, No. 2File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat ... terms gives the first known use, notes on usage, and quotations of actual ... Baseball fans will enjoy the historical minutiae that he in- cludes, and wordsmiths ... www.wordorigins.org/AWWW1-2.pdf - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Archive-Name: gov/us/fed/congress/record/1999/jun/24/1999CRH4881C [Congressional Record: June 24, 1999 (House)] [Page H4881] >From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [DOCID:cr24jn99-89] BASEBALL The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Jones) is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. JONES of North Carolina. Mr. Speaker, America has a long-standing fascination with baseball. Perhaps only apple pie and the American flag can compete with its association to this country. And with good reason. Baseball, like many team sports, is beloved in part because of the unity it brings to our nation's communities. Poet Walt Whitman once wrote, ``I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. (It will) repair these losses and be a blessing to us.'' : Would anyone happen to know the source of this quote from Whitman? : "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous dyspeptic set. Repair these losses and be a blessing to us." WITH WALT WHITMAN IN CAMDEN January 21 to April 7, 1889 by Horace Traubel Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press 1953 VOLUME FOUR Pg. 508 (Sunday, April 7, 1889): I said: "Baseball is the hurrah game of the republic!" He was hilarious: "That's beautiful: the hurrah game! well--it's our game: that's the chief fact in connection with it: America's game: has the snap, go fling, of the American atmosphere--belongs as much to our institutions, fits into them as significantly, as our constitutions, laws: is just as important in the sum total of our historic life." From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jul 11 12:07:23 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:07:23 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could the spellings we find historically and the pronunciations which actually occur be at odds here? For "He upped and died," /hi^p?mdaId/ is my ordinary pronunciation (where ^ is wedge and ? is a glottal stop, the latter perhaps coarticularted with the [p]). I cannot detect any [t] realization of the preterit here since the [?] would have eat it up. On the other hand "He ups and dies," is less likely to be reduced to /hi^pmdaIz/ because the consonant cluster reduction which takes place in /pt/ is less likely in /ps/, since /p/ and /s/ do not share the feature [+stop]. Of course, we can never be sure when phonology does not turn around and bite us in the butt so that our underlying representations change (as larry has so elegantly shown us recently with our spitting images). dInIs >On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > >then he up and died >then he upped and died > >Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I >commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. What is >really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the >historical present, as in narratives, thus: > >then he ups and dies > >not > >then he up and dies. > >But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with >died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances in >this entry for up as a v: > >--- >b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or >boldly, >to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. >? >??(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he must >mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us ups >and says, that minute, ?Prove so!? 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. >Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, >Heart sunk inside me: ?Well, pad on my prate-apace!? >?? >??(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's >insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ?MARK TWAIN? Huck. Finn >xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. >1898 ?H. S. MERRIMAN? Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that >served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS >Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as >would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's >cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ?A. GILBERT? Death against Clock 81 So you upped >and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote >I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It did no >good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we >could we upped and fled. >--- > >What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > >Bethany From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 17:56:19 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:56:19 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Barry, Nice catch. Newspaperarchive, which I'm sure you used, can only find a listing from a Cleveland sportswriter from 1989. Maybe, like the "sunscreen" commencement address wrongly attributed to Vonnegut a few years ago, it's a modern concoction, but sounds like something Whitman would have written. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:55 AM Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. > ---Walt Whitman > Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 > (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 11 18:31:50 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:31:50 -0700 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <001001c46770$5eccba90$0e631941@sam> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Sam Clements > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:56 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > > Barry, > > Nice catch. > > Newspaperarchive, which I'm sure you used, can only find a listing from a > Cleveland sportswriter from 1989. > > Maybe, like the "sunscreen" commencement > address wrongly attributed to Vonnegut a few years ago, it's a modern > concoction, but sounds like something Whitman would have written. > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:55 AM > Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > > > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It > will take people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a large > physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, > dyspeptic set. > Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. > > ---Walt Whitman > > Brooklyn Daily Eagle, July 23, 1846 > > (NEW YORK SUN, Tuesday, 6 July 2004, page 1, col. 2.) > The quote is in the 1988 movie "Bull Durham" (Susan Sarandon as narrator quotes Whitman at the end of the film), so the idea that Whitman said it is at least a year older than what's in Newspaperarchive. If Whitman actually said it, the "repair this losses" phrase suggests that it dates to around the end of the Civil War, ca. 1865. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 11 18:44:31 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:44:31 EDT Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS by Paul Dickson 1991 Pg. 468: WHITMAN, WALT "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us." --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his _Baseball: An Informal History_ "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing 'base,' a certain game of ball." --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) (No date at all given for the first one, but I'd say the July 23, 1846 _Brooklyn Eagle_ has got to be wrong--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 18:57:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it can now be traced at least to 1969. Sucks that my libraries are closed today. SC From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will > take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger > physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. dyspeptic set. Repair > these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his _Baseball: An Informal History_ From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jul 11 19:09:23 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:09:23 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: We also know that (John) Douglass Wallop III(1920-1985) wrote "Damn Yankees." He evidently was a fantasy/cum science fiction writer. I can't wait for someone to read his book and find out his source for the quote. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it can > now be traced at least to 1969. > Sucks that my libraries are closed today. > SC From pds at VISI.COM Sun Jul 11 22:34:08 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:34:08 -0500 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <20040711183056.D1A6A51EC@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The Sarandon character concludes her quotation of Whitman with a quotation of Casey Stengel: "You can look it up." Years go I took that challenge, and finally found the passage, if I recall correctly, in Whitman's diaries. I do not recall the date, but I think that if it had been pre-Civil War I would have noticed. Anyway, if no one beats me to it, I'll attempt to repeat my search when I have a chance. --Tom Kysilko At 7/11/2004 11:31 AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >The quote is in the 1988 movie "Bull Durham" (Susan Sarandon as narrator >quotes Whitman at the end of the film), so the idea that Whitman said it is >at least a year older than what's in Newspaperarchive. > >If Whitman actually said it, the "repair this losses" phrase suggests that >it dates to around the end of the Civil War, ca. 1865. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 11 22:50:06 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:50:06 -0400 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >>U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >>Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >>/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >>'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) >> >>The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. >> >>/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. >> >>I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >>with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? Conjectures are easy to come by, I guess. Reasonable ones are more difficult. When were the Algonquian words in question first used? In particular, did any of these words predate the term of President Madison? -- Doug Wilson From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 11 23:00:29 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:00:29 -0700 Subject: conundrum onomasticum (Algonquian word for U.S. president) Message-ID: According to http://www.geocities.com/americanpresidencynet/cabinet.htm, the ninth cabinet was formed in 1919. If the Vice-President is counted as one of the ten people, you still go back to only 1903. If you count the president, vice-president, three secretaries at Washington's time and the five Supremes (http://www.supremecourthistory.org/02_history/subs_timeline/02_a.html), you get a total of ten. Perhaps something along these lines, though determining the exact people represented might be difficult... Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us -----Original Message----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Sent: Jul 11, 2004 3:50 PM >>The Miami-Illinois term for the president of the United States and the >>U.S. government, which has cognates in various Eastern Great Lakes >>Algonquian languages, is /meetaathsoopia/. (Ottawa has, for example, >>/medaasoobid/ 'Washington, D.C.' and Meskwaki has /meetaasoopita/ >>'president of the U.S., U.S.government.) >> >>The MI name for Washington D.C. is /meetaathsoopionki/. >> >>/meetaathsoopia/ means 'ten-sit-person'. >> >>I'm wondering what the number ten, or sitting for that matter, had to do >>with the U.S. president/government. Any conjectures? Conjectures are easy to come by, I guess. Reasonable ones are more difficult. When were the Algonquian words in question first used? In particular, did any of these words predate the term of President Madison? From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 12 11:32:32 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:32:32 -0700 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040710132529.02f38e90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I'm a member of a large church with eight associate pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one first lady--the wife of the pastor. "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:Question: in a large church which has multiple pastors, is only the chief pastor's wife called "first lady"? Is there a "second first lady"? Or a "second lady"? -- Doug Wilson Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Jul 12 12:23:17 2004 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:23:17 -0400 Subject: Wag In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040709011448.02f4ceb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Here from AP ... > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040708/D83MSLSG2.html > > ... is the word "wag": > > < International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more > than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous.">> > > I believe I recognize it as an acronym for "wild ass[ed] guess". But is it > well-known to all, so that it need not be defined/explained in the article? > > Is it in any dictionary? > > Should it be? > > -- Doug Wilson Found in the comments on the Groklaw website: Scientificky Wild Assumptions and Guesses bkd From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 12 14:46:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <20040712113232.38149.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >first lady--the wife of the pastor. > What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) Larry From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:04:56 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:04:56 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: The NYTimes had an obituary on July 10, 2004, p. B18. I have sent the editor the letter below in response. Let's see whether it gets printed. "Living as we do during a time when vulgarity is too commonplace to ever astonish, it was very cruel of the Times to tantalize birdwatchers and other readers by telling them that "a breathtakingly vulgar synonym for 'kestrel' can be found in the W's" in the supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary. Many libraries will not even have the supplement anymore, since its contents have been incorporated into the 20 volume 2nd edition, where the Ws fill many hundred pages, and if the supplement should be at hand, the Ws must still fill at least several hundred pages. Surely you could have given the hint that the word begins with "wind" -- that must be news that would be fit to print. Then to say that it is a ten-letter word? Perhaps even to suggest that to buy a "u" would prove a fruitful investment? Responsible journalism requires no less." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2004 4:40 pm Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's > London Times. > From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:16:22 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:16:22 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First Gentleman," even in his web address: http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ dInIs >At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >> >What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:36:47 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:36:47 -0400 Subject: "checking the mail" Message-ID: >From an article in the NYTimes of July 11, 2004 (City Section, p. 7, col. 1)on a stray dog: "The dog is often spotted by residents in the morning, right around commuting time. It ambles up an avenue, sniffing bushes where other dogs have marked -- "checking the mail," as they say in dog parlance." Is this expression commonly used in people parlance? I have cats, myself. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:50:47 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:50:47 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:16 AM -0400 7/12/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >Gentleman," even in his web address: >http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ > >dInIs Interesting. We have our second married female governor in my memory in CT, and neither husband was or is so designated, as far as I know. The husband of the female minister at our Unitarian-Universalist society is also not "first gentleman", but I would predict based on general properties of the UU (non-)creed that when a male Unitarian minister is married, his wife (or husband, as the case may be) is likewise undesignated as first whatever. L > >>At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >>> >>What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >>label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >>husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >>is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >>gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) >> >>Larry > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 15:57:02 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:57:02 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: Barry writes: Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American > game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give > them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. > dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his > _Baseball: An Informal History_ > > "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of > Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing > 'base,' a certain > game of ball." > --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 > (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) > > > (No date at all given for the first one, but I'd say the July 23, 1846 > _Brooklyn Eagle_ has got to be wrong--ed.) > A search of the Brooklyn Eagle database for "perambulations" turns up the second passage from July 23, 1846, p. 2. I'm quite sure that the first quotation is from late in Whitman's life, probably from his conversations with Horace Traubel at his home in Camden, N. J. I will try to check further. The Eagle shows hundreds of occurences of "dyspeptic" from the 1840s, but only three of "stoicism", none this. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jul 12 16:01:52 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:01:52 -0500 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 11:16 AM -0400 7/12/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >>Gentleman," even in his web address: >>http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ >> >>dInIs > >Interesting. We have our second married female governor in my memory >in CT, and neither husband was or is so designated, as far as I know. >The husband of the female minister at our Unitarian-Universalist >society is also not "first gentleman", but I would predict based on >general properties of the UU (non-)creed that when a male Unitarian >minister is married, his wife (or husband, as the case may be) is >likewise undesignated as first whatever. Being a life-long Unitarian, and hanging out with Unitarian-Universalist ministers in the making, I would heartily agree. Barbara >L > >> >>>At 4:32 AM -0700 7/12/04, Margaret Lee wrote: >>>>I'm a member of a large church with eight associate >>>>pastors/ministers (four of whom are women), but there's only one >>>>first lady--the wife of the pastor. >>>> >>>What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >>>label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >>>husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >>>is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >>>gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) >>> >>>Larry >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:49:51 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:49:51 -0400 Subject: upped/up? In-Reply-To: <200407101513.1bJq6z2bO3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: upped/up? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On another list, we have been discussing these variants: > > then he up and died > then he upped and died > > Someone else wrote the latter. I had never heard/seen that, and I > commented. Clearly, individuals vary. "Upped" appears to be older. > What is > really interesting is that I would expect inflection in, say, the > historical present, as in narratives, thus: > > then he ups and dies > > not > > then he up and dies. > > But I am startled by it in the past. The OED has 16th c. citations with > died and also other verbs (fled, tupped) and also narrative instances > in > this entry for up as a v: > > --- > b. colloq. and dial. To start up, come forward, begin abruptly or > boldly, > to say or do something. Usu. followed by and. Cf. UP adv.1 33. > ? > ??(a) 1831 S. LOVER Leg. 82 The bishop ups and he tells him that he > must > mend his manners. 1865 DICKENS Mut. Fr. IV. xiii, Then we both of us > ups > and says, that minute, ?Prove so!? 1867- in general dialect use (Eng. > Dial. Dict.). 1879 R. BROWNING Ned Bratts 125 She ups with such a face, > Heart sunk inside me: ?Well, pad on my prate-apace!? > ?? > ??(b) 1883 STEVENSON Treas. Isl. xxix, And you have the Davy Jones's > insolence to up and stand for cap'n over me! 1884 ?MARK TWAIN? Huck. > Finn > xxv, All of a sudden the doctor ups and turns on them. He says: [etc.]. > 1898 ?H. S. MERRIMAN? Roden's Corner xxvii, A gesture that > served..to..invite the Frenchman to up and smite him. 1935 E. E. > CUMMINGS > Let. 31 Jan. (1969) 135 And he ups and hands Am [Eimi] such a boost as > would knock Karl Marx's whiskers out of Benjamin G. Woozeythought's > cabinet d'aisance. 1958 ?A. GILBERT? Death against Clock 81 So you > upped > and fled. 1961 O. NASH Coll. Verse 33 One of these days not too remote > I'll probably up and cut your throat. 1973 Black World Jan. 62/1 It > did no > good. I upped and died. 1979 J. RATHBONE Joseph I. i. 20 As soon as we > could we upped and fled. > --- > > What do you say? Expect to hear? (Spellcheck did not object to upped.) > > Bethany > "Upped and died" is what works for me. Reminds of a debate among us GI's back in the early 'Sixties as to whether (a) "Smith is re-upping" or (b) "Smith is reing-up" was "correct." For me, (a) was so clearly the proper form that I could not believe that there were people who felt exactly as strongly that (b) had to be the proper form. But there were. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:50:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:28 -0400 Subject: Another "upped/up" controversy Message-ID: In the early 'Sixties, when I was in the Army, there were many almost-coming-to-blows discussions in the barracks wrt to the verb "to re(-)up," meaning "to re-enlist." The argument had to do with whether one should say (a) "John Doe is re-upping/re-upped/has re-upped" or (b) "John Doe is ?reing/re'ing? up/?reed/re'd? up/has ?reed/re'd? up." Some GI's, including me, considered it to be so "obvious" that the "correct" form was (a) that discussion should have been pointless. And it would have been pointless, had not other GI's believed just as strongly that it was "obvious" that (b) had to be the "correct" form. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:50:41 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:41 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <200407111209.1bJJHA34x3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: Shouldn't that be "fantasy/science-fiction writer"? -Wilson Gray On Jul 11, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We also know that (John) Douglass Wallop III(1920-1985) wrote "Damn > Yankees." He evidently was a fantasy/cum science fiction writer. I > can't > wait for someone to read his book and find out his source for the > quote. > > SC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:57 PM > Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > > >> Wallop's book was published in 1969, so, IF the quote is in there, it >> can >> now be traced at least to 1969. >> Sucks that my libraries are closed today. >> SC > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 12 19:51:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <200407120805.1bK2mP7dr3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a motherfucker," as we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention to the letters to the editor. -Wilson Gray On Jul 12, 2004, at 11:04 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The NYTimes had an obituary on July 10, 2004, p. B18. I have sent the > editor the letter below in response. Let's see whether it gets > printed. > > "Living as we do during a time when vulgarity is too commonplace to > ever astonish, it was very cruel of the Times to tantalize > birdwatchers and other readers by telling them that "a breathtakingly > vulgar synonym for 'kestrel' can be found in the W's" in the > supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary. Many libraries will not > even have the supplement anymore, since its contents have been > incorporated into the 20 volume 2nd edition, where the Ws fill many > hundred pages, and if the supplement should be at hand, the Ws must > still fill at least several hundred pages. Surely you could have > given the hint that the word begins with "wind" -- that must be news > that would be fit to print. Then to say that it is a ten-letter word? > Perhaps even to suggest that to buy a "u" would prove a fruitful > investment? Responsible journalism requires no less." > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African > Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2004 4:40 pm > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > >> See the splendid tribute to the late RW Burchfield in yesterday's >> London Times. >> > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 12 21:44:20 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:44:20 -0400 Subject: "Cracker" in Early Encounters in North America Message-ID: 1. S6279 (p.207), raisins, Indian corn, peas, crackers or sea biscuits, and tobacco; 2. S2848 (p.66)ked, about the size of a large cracker, but much thicker; this he put 3. S2833 (p.189)s a little tea, rice, fruits, crackers, etc., suffice very well for t 4. S2833 (p.190)ar, and a little salt. Beans, crackers, and trifles of that descripti 5. S2833 (p.254) wagoner must tie a bran new `cracker' to the lash of his whip; for, 6. S3224 (p.382)aggage. Found our biscuit and crackers almost all ruined. Put off at 7. S7427 (p.16)nsolence of the lower classes. Crackers. Wreck of the Jonah. New crew. 8. S2745 (p.na)rors warriors against the Bone Cracker, and drove him at th epoint of 9. S2832 (p.148)ulders. They then touched the crackers with a lighted match. Words wo 10. S7232 (p.174)he head of a barrel of fresh crackers, and opened a barrel each of b 11. S7232 (p.469)food he would ever taste, of crackers, &c., in the store, where we h -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results Bibliography Bertrand, M., fl. 1610, Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents, vol. 4. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: Burrows Brothers, 1901, pp. 272. [Bibliographic Details] Buttrick, Tilly, 1783-, Early Western Travels, vol. 8: Buttrick's Voyages, 1812-1819, Evan's Pedestrious tour, 1818. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 364. [Bibliographic Details] Ogden, George W., fl. 1821, Early Western Travels, vol. 19: Ogden's Letters from the West, 1821-1823: Bullock's Journey from New Orleans to New York, 1827, Part I of Gregg's Commerce of the Prairies, 1831-1839. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 349. [Bibliographic Details] Pike, Zebulon Montgomery, 1779-1813, The Expeditions of Zebulon Montgomery Pike, to Headwaters of the Mississippi River, Through Louisiana Territory, and in New Spain, During the years 1805-6-7, Vol. II. Coues, Elliott. New York, NY: F.P. Harper, 1895, pp. 504. [Bibliographic Details] Lescarbot, Marc, 1565(?)-1629(?), The History of New France, vol 2.. Toronto, ON: The Chaplain Society, 1911, pp. 584. [Bibliographic Details] Anonymous Male Cherokee, fl. April 1832, Historical. In Cherokee Phoenix & Indians' Advocate, April 14, 1832. Not indicated, Not indicated, 1832. pp. 2. [Bibliographic Details] Pattie, James Ohio, 1804(?)-1850(?), Early Western Travels, vol. 18: Pattie's Personal Narrative, 1824-1830: Willard's Inland trade with New Mexico, 1825: Downfall of the Fredonian Republic: Malte-Brun's Account of Mexico. Thwaites, Reuben Gold, ed.. Cleveland, OH: A.H. Clark Co., 1904, pp. 379. [Bibliographic Details] Hobbs, James, 1819-, Wild Life in the Far West: Personal Adventures of a Border Mountain Man. Hartford, CT: Wiley, Waterman & Eaton, 1872, pp. 488. [Bibliographic Details] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 22:01:43 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:01:43 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield Message-ID: The OED online has 5 citations for "windhover" = kestrel, starting with 1674 and not including Hopkins; it has only one citation for "windfucker" = kestrel, and that is Thomas Nashe, from 1599, though it has 4 citations for a second meaning, "a term of opprobrium" when applied to people, all between 1602 and 1616. So if "windhover" is a euphemism, it doesn't originate with Hopkins. Despite the fact that Nashe's quotation is about 75 years the earliest, perhaps "windfucker" is an obscenification. Although, thinking about it, the position that small hovering birds put themselves into when they hover somewhat resembles the position the male bird takes when copulating -- he kneels on the female's back and reaches his lower abdomen past and under her tail until the opening of his cloaca touches the opening of hers, and sometimes he has to move his wings back and forth for balance. If Nashe had a dirty mind, and he did, the similarity might have suggested the name. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:51 pm Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not > the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the > "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have > come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion > of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. > Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the > Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a > motherfucker," as > we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention > to the letters to the editor. > > -Wilson Gray > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 12 22:24:23 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:24:23 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: The July 23, 1846 passage from the Brooklyn Eagle is reprinted as Whitman's in vol. 1, of the collecton of his journalism in the Collected Writings of Walt Whitman, Peter Lang, 1998, p. 477. The editor of this collection supposes that all editorial matter in the Eagle is by Whitman if it is not otherwise attributed there. I haven't been able to locate the other passage in Horace Traubel's With Walt Whitman in Camden. Traubel's notes on his conversations with Whitman were published in 9 volumes over a 90 (!) year period, and Bobst doesn't have a complete set. Gary Smigdall, in Intimate with Walt, [selections from Traubel's notes], has a different but similar passage from a conversation of early April, 1889, reading in part, "it's our game: that's the chief fact in connection with it: America's game: has the snap, go, fling, of the American atmosphere" This is on p. 261 of Smigdall's book, and from vol. 4, p. 508 of Traubel's volumes. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:44 pm Subject: Re: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) > BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS > by Paul Dickson > 1991 > > Pg. 468: > WHITMAN, WALT > "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American > game. It will > take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a > larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous. > dyspeptic set. Repair > these losses, and be a blessing to us." > --Unearthed by Douglass Wallop, the quote appears in his > _Baseball: An > Informal History_ > > "In our sun-down perambulations, of late, through the outer parts of > Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing > 'base,' a certain > game of ball." > --_Brooklyn Eagle_, July 1846 > (Walt Whitman didn't write EVERYTHING in the newspaper--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 12 22:45:02 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:45:02 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) Message-ID: CRACKERS--This was intended for ASmith--, not ADS--. You type the "A"and AOL automatically continues the address. I've been going through Early Encounters in North America, a database not at NYPL or NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- WHITMAN Maybe I'll just ask the Walt Whitman list? No need to go crazy; I mean, Fred Shapiro doesn't pay me enough for this stuff. BASEBALL: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY nqarrative by Geoffrey C. Ward based on a documentary filmscript by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994 Pg. xvii: Well, it's our game; that the chief fact in connection with it; America's game; it has the snap, go, fling of the American atmosphere; it belongs as much to our institutions, fits into them as significantly as our Constitution's laws; is just as important in the sum total of our historic life. --Walt Whitman (No date or source--ed.) Pg. 3: I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. --Walt Whitman, 1846 (No source--ed.) BASE BALL: AN INFORMAL HISTORY by Douglass Wallop New York: W. W. Norton & Company, Inc. 1969 Pg. 119: And in his frontal attack, in which he called baseball "somewhat less exciting than a spelling bee," Louis Graves struck a mighty blow for those who hoped, even at such a late date, that baseball might somehow be headed off. (...) He was competing against the greater voice of Walt Whitman, who said: "I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill (Pg. 120--ed.) them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relive us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair our losses, and be a blessing to us." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 00:19:17 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:19:17 EDT Subject: COMPLETELY OT: "Secret Life of Popcorn" on Food Network tonight Message-ID: Why are these shows so bad? Why is journalism so bad? I'll probably watch it because it's so bad, but this is ridiculous. For those who don't know, Andy Smith (where the "crackers" post was intended to be sent) wrote the book on popcorn. But who reads books? Can't the Food Network even steal anymore? Barry Popik (Who must note that, after this ridiculous "popcorn" show tonight, WHAT'S HOT! WHAT'S COOL! at 10;30 p.m. features the equally ridiculous "naked sushi.") (FOOD NETWORK) The Secret Life Of Episode SF1A05 AIR TIMES: July 11, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 12, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT July 12, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 13, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT July 17, 2004 5:00 PM ET/PT July 18, 2004 4:00 PM ET/PT July 23, 2004 10:00 PM ET/PT July 24, 2004 2:00 AM ET/PT Secret Life of Popcorn When you think of the movies you think of popcorn. But its history can be traced back hundreds of thousands of years to prehistoric cave dwellers. Popcorn was present in 1620 at the first Thanksgiving, served as the basis for the very first breakfast cereal and boomed as a cheap affordable snack during The Great Depression. From: ASmith1946 (asmith1946 at aol.com) Subject: Culinary Fakelore View: Complete Thread (16 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.food.historic Date: 2001-03-14 11:46:29 PST (...) Another example is theassociation of popcorn with the Pilgrims at the "First Thanksgiving" in 1621,when there is no evidence that popcorn was grown or consumed in North America until the beginning of the nineteenth century. C) Political correctness or historical revisionism stories: undocumented attribution of foods to non-white males. African-American scientist GeorgeWashington Carver is frequently credited with inventing peanut butter, eventhough he made no such claim himself and peanut butter had been a commercialproduct for twenty years before Carver became interested in peanuts. Alternately, numerous sources have claimed that Native Americans introduced popcorn to colonial Americans, yet no evidence has surfaced indicating thatNative Americans possessed popcorn prior to the nineteenth century. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:31:16 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:31:16 -0700 Subject: the safirean collective Message-ID: is it too much to ask that bill safire get it together on the terminology front? i mean, it's not like there are a great many grammatical terms that have made it into (more or less) common usage, but "collective noun" is one, and safire (in his sunday 7/11/04 column) just transmits bill walsh's misuse of this term for "mass noun": [quotation from walsh] "acknowledge that _data_ is a collective noun, like _information_"; [quotation from safire, paraphrasing walsh] "[Walsh] holds that ["media"] is usually used by people as a collective singular". collective nouns include: group, committee, troupe, pride [of lions], etc. grammatically, these are are count nouns, pluralizable as: groups, committees, troupes, prides [of lions], etc. mass nouns include: information, rice, hair 'head of hair', pride (as in "much pride"), etc. grammatically, these are not pluralizable except in special uses: *informations, *rices, *hairs 'heads of hair', *prides (as in "many prides"). this is baby-level english-structure stuff, and *very* long-standing terminology. why do people (like walsh and safire) who propose to treat the details of english usage so meticulously, carefully distinguishing between one kind of locution and another, treat grammatical terminology in this ignorantly ham-fisted fashion? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) [note: since i am calling people out on errors here, let me say that if there are typos in the above message -- lord knows i've tried to catch them, but i am fallible -- i should note that i do all my own research, type every character that comes out under my name (except material marked as coming from other sources), here and everywhere else, and have a largely nonfunctioning right ulnar nerve, which means a significantly nonfunctional right hand, so that this typing is perilous and fallible. i say this to protect myself from people who might attack me by pointing out *my* errors: "why, zwicky can't even spell 'ignorantly'!" (it was "ignoratly" the first time around, and the whole message was littered with extra characters accidentally provided by my poor drooping right index finger.).] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:36:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:36:45 -0400 Subject: 1st gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >larry, > >Not so. michigan.gov recognizes Daniel Granholm Mulhern as "First >Gentleman," even in his web address: >http://www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ > >dInIs > And for those interested in the background to Mr. Mulhern's assumption of the title, he offers the explanation below. (Seems to me he wants to have it both ways--striving to be a traditional gentleman on the one hand, and opting for "Dan" as his "preferred moniker" from strangers on the other.) Larry, who admits to not having native intuition on this one. ================== What's in a Name? While doing research on integrity, I stumbled across a 104 year old essay by a John MacLaren that answered the question, "What is a Gentleman?" It's wonderfully written, so click on the link [http://ourworld.cs.com/bobbynorthlake/gentleman.html#top ] if you're interested. Mr. MacLaren's essay prompted me to put on this public site the reason why I chose the title "First Gentleman." Initially, when people asked me what they should call me I said, "call me Dan," and that remains my preferred moniker. But after being asked repeatedly, I decided if a title was in order, why not call me "the first gentleman." I chose this title for a few reasons. First, other male spouses had already claimed the fun names: first hunk, first dude, and first coach. Seriously, I learned from my Irish grandmother's repeated instructions, that gentleman meant something, and most important it meant that you showed respect to ladies, and a special fidelity to your lady. I am proud and humbled to serve my wife. As "first lady" connotes a respect for her husband and her governor, it seems like "first gentleman" is an appropriate mirror image that conveys respect to the leader of the state. Second, I chose the title with the thought that it might help to inject this word back into our vocabulary. I think all men should strive to be "gentlemen," a word, and perhaps therefore a style, that has unfortunately lost meaning in our culture. We have lost appreciation for the humility and civility that the word connotes. So, I see the title as something I try to earn every day, by showing respect to my elders, love for my wife, kindness to children. Mr. MacLaren says it so much better than I. I hope you'll read his thoughts -- more potent today than at the outset of the 20th century. - Daniel Granholm Mulhern - First Gentleman From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 13 01:37:31 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:37:31 -0700 Subject: the safirean collective In-Reply-To: <5558AF66-D46C-11D8-AEAB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2004, at 6:31 PM, i wrote, alas: > ... the whole > message was littered with extra characters accidentally provided by my > poor drooping right index finger.).] ... "right little finger"... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 03:36:08 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:36:08 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit nouveau.) Larry From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Tue Jul 13 03:51:48 2004 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:51:48 -0700 Subject: "checking the mail" In-Reply-To: <200407121536.i6CFasGr021055@drizzle.com> Message-ID: >Is this expression commonly used in people parlance? I have cats, myself. My wife and I have friends in Portland, OR, who regularly referred to their dog as "checking her pee-mail." Their phrase was definitely a pun on e-mail, and dates to the '90s. I was under the impression that they'd coined the phrase themselves, but I don't really know -- I'm a cat person, too. -- James Callan copywriter Seattle, WA From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Jul 13 08:15:26 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:15:26 +0100 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote > I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC > on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue > is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte > acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has > fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the > animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and > left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm > the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set > in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit > nouveau.) It sounds remarkably unlikely to me. I checked the complete Project Gutenberg Galsworthy files and there is no instance of "upped" in this sense (though there are two of "thin-upped", which from context looks like an uncorrected OCR misreading of "thin-lipped"). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 10:34:12 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:34:12 EDT Subject: Wag Message-ID: In my experience "SWAG" has always stood for "Scientific Wild-Ass Guess". The irony of combining "scientific" and "guess" makes this derivation much more forceful (and in my opinion much more likely) than such combinations as "simple wild-ass guess". Also in my experience "SWAG" has been much more common than "WAG". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 10:52:54 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:52:54 EDT Subject: question Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official hostess of the United States government, which means she is the woman who does the formal welcoming of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of State, hosts an official event (e.g. a state dinner). If the President is male and married, then by default his wife acts as First Lady. If the President is male and single, then some female relative acts as First Lady. When the bachelor James Buchanan was President, his niece Harriet Lane acted as First Lady. So what happens should we have a female President? At official functions she will be the First Lady, as well as Head of State, Chief Executive, and Commander-in-Chief. Furthermore, if she is married, her husband will act as the official host at official functions. Undoubtedly many journalists will use the title "First Gentleman", but we will have to wait and see whether it catches on. - James A. Landau From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 13 11:38:16 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:38:16 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: From: Margaret Lee : I'm a member of a large church with eight associate pastors/ministers : (four of whom are women), but there's only one first lady--the wife : of the pastor. In the Mormon church, the leader of a congregation is always male and has (in most cases) the title "Bishop". Although being married is a de facto requirement for being a bishop, i've never heard a title for a bishop's wife other than "the bishop's wife". Getting back to governors, Utah's current (though lame-duck) first female governor, Olene S. Walker, is married to Myron Walker, who is "First Gentleman", like in Michigan. (To make up for the to my ears diseuphonious title, he has one of the coolest-looking governor's mansions in the country to entertain in.) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 14:15:08 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:15:08 -0400 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <40F3A82E.23215.34C093@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:15 AM +0100 7/13/04, Michael Quinion wrote: >Laurence Horn wrote > >> I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >> nouveau.) > >It sounds remarkably unlikely to me. I checked the complete Project >Gutenberg Galsworthy files and there is no instance of "upped" in >this sense (though there are two of "thin-upped", which from context >looks like an uncorrected OCR misreading of "thin-lipped"). > Ah, OK. An anachronism in the adaptation, then. (Actually a double one; in subsequent dialogue, Soames relates to Fleur that Jon had "upped and gone", using the participial form of the verb "to up" in the serial construction.) larry From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 13 14:43:21 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:43:21 -0700 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <1c1.1b913077.2e251906@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:53 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: question > > When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is > the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official > hostess of the United > States government, which means she is the woman who does the > formal welcoming > of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of > State, hosts an > official event (e.g. a state dinner). I would disagree with this. Were a bachelor to be elected president, the press would be filled with articles about how the White House would be run without a "First Lady." The film "The American President," about a widowed president falling in love, makes numerous uses of "First Lady" to mean the wife of the president. (One has to resort to fictional or hypothetical usages to gauge modern usage because we haven't had an unmarried president since Wilson.) Both Safire's "New Political Dictionary" and the OED gloss "First Lady" as the wife of the president. The position is unofficial, so she can't be the "official hostess." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 13 14:44:18 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: question In-Reply-To: <1c1.1b913077.2e251906@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:52 AM -0400 7/13/04, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:46:19 -0400 >Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a >label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the >husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer >is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first >gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) > >When referring to the White House, it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is >the wife of the President. The FIrst Lady is the official hostess >of the United >States government, which means she is the woman who does the formal welcoming >of the guests when the President, in his/her role as Head of State, hosts an >official event (e.g. a state dinner). > >If the President is male and married, then by default his wife acts as First >Lady. If the President is male and single, then some female relative acts as >First Lady. When the bachelor James Buchanan was President, his niece Harriet >Lane acted as First Lady. > >So what happens should we have a female President? At official functions she >will be the First Lady, as well as Head of State, Chief Executive, and >Commander-in-Chief. Furthermore, if she is married, her husband >will act as the >official host at official functions. Undoubtedly many journalists >will use the >title "First Gentleman", but we will have to wait and see whether it >catches on. > I beg to differ, at least in part. By saying 'it is NOT true that the "First Lady" is the wife of the President', you are taking "First Lady" to be a technical term, whose definition is given by experts in the relevant field. (Cf. Putnam on the division of linguistic labor.) I'm not sure this is tenable, at least for the normal use of the expression. For the vast majority of speakers, I'd wager, the wife of a male President, Governor, etc. who declines to serve as hostess* is nevertheless First Lady, simply by virtue of being married to the executive in question. And a female President (or Governor, etc.) is not (also) First Lady. There may well be a technical sense or context in which your definition (on which hostess role trumps spouse status) is respected, but it appears that such a sense is not directly reflected in current dictionary entries; thus the AHD4 has: The wife or hostess of the chief executive of a country, state, or city. This disjunction does indeed allow for a gap-filler in the case of unmarried male executives with non-wife hostesses, but also encompasses non-hostess wives for what I take to be "faute de mieux" situations of the Buchanan type. At the same time, it excludes (correctly, I would submit) female executives who serve as hostesses in their spare time. Further, it is because the spouse-of-[presupposed-male]-chief-executive is the standard denotation of "First Lady" that the "First Gentleman" title was analogically derived. Larry *One example might be Abigail Bartlet of "The West Wing" who is not a "hostess" in the traditional sense but is indeed "First Lady" and referred to as such. Of course, all of this presupposes we know what it means to be "an official hostess". From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 13 16:22:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:22:54 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <200407121501.1bK8RW2F93NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: Unfortunately, having grown up in a house whose backyard was a chicken yard, I am only too familiar with the manner in which (some) birds copulate. Given that the first thing that a rooster does after finishing with a chicken is to kick that chicken aside with his spurs, I long imagined that it was this brutal dismissal of the female partner immediately after the climax of the sex act that had given rise to the verb "spurn," despite that fact that the cliche is, "_she_ spurned _his_ advances." -Wilson Gray On Jul 12, 2004, at 6:01 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The OED online has 5 citations for "windhover" = kestrel, starting > with 1674 and not including Hopkins; it has only one citation for > "windfucker" = kestrel, and that is Thomas Nashe, from 1599, though it > has 4 citations for a second meaning, "a term of opprobrium" when > applied to people, all between 1602 and 1616. > So if "windhover" is a euphemism, it doesn't originate with Hopkins. > Despite the fact that Nashe's quotation is about 75 years the > earliest, perhaps "windfucker" is an obscenification. Although, > thinking about it, the position that small hovering birds put > themselves into when they hover somewhat resembles the position the > male bird takes when copulating -- he kneels on the female's back and > reaches his lower abdomen past and under her tail until the opening of > his cloaca touches the opening of hers, and sometimes he has to move > his wings back and forth for balance. If Nashe had a dirty mind, and > he did, the similarity might have suggested the name. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:51 pm > Subject: Re: R. W. Burchfield > >> Does this mean that Gerard Manley Hopkins's term, "windhover," is not >> the only synonym for "kestrel"? Or is it a euphemism based on the >> "breathtakingly-vulgar synonym"? On the basis of GAT's hints, I have >> come up with a possible synonym for "kestrel" that is, in the opinion >> of some, "vulgar," but I personally don't find it "breathtakingly" so. >> Perhaps, then, my possible synonym is not what's referred to by the >> Times. Or, perhaps, I've simply become jaded "like a >> motherfucker," as >> we say in the 'hood. In any case, I'll be paying particular attention >> to the letters to the editor. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 13 17:29:54 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:29:54 -0400 Subject: "checking the mail" Message-ID: James Callan writes: >>> My wife and I have friends in Portland, OR, who regularly referred to their dog as "checking her pee-mail." Their phrase was definitely a pun on e-mail, and dates to the '90s. I was under the impression that they'd coined the phrase themselves, but I don't really know -- I'm a cat person, too. <<< I use the same pun myself, and I coined it independently. I don't think I have ever written it out before, but I think of it as "P-mail". I don't think of myself as either a dog person or a cat person. I like cats but I'm allergic to them; otherwise we might have one. And cats are extremely fond of me, as they are of all people who are allergic to them. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jul 13 17:52:11 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:52:11 -0400 Subject: English Dialect Dictionary Message-ID: Does anyone know whether the English Dialect Dictionary has been digitized? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 13 17:55:29 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:55:29 -0400 Subject: English Dialect Dictionary In-Reply-To: <27b2f3c27b482e.27b482e27b2f3c@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 01:52:11PM -0400, George Thompson wrote: > Does anyone know whether the English Dialect Dictionary has been digitized? Not to my knowledge. Jesse OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 13 17:58:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:58:46 -0400 Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers Message-ID: LAWFARE Maybe some lawyers are on this list? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 13 July 2004, pg. A14: _"Lawfare"_ By Jeremy Rabkin Maj. Michael Newton, a military lawyer who teaches at West Point, coined a new term earlier this year--"lawfare." ----------------------------------------------------------- EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS Good morning Mr. Popik! I'm pleased to pass on that we've made our first release of the Early American Newspapers - Digitized! Janet From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jul 13 20:07:55 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:07:55 -0500 Subject: "Five Foot Shelf" Message-ID: In a magic/conjuring list on which I am active, there is a discussion of the "Five Foot Shelf" of magic books, originated by mentalist Ted Anneman in the 1930's. Someone has proposed that he got the idea for such from Harvard Classic's "Five Foot Shelf of Books", from about 1909 - 1910. Is there any other origin of the phrase? From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Jul 13 21:11:15 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:11:15 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >> nouveau.) Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: The dog up and died, he up and died. Orin Hargraves From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 13 21:29:12 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:12 -0400 Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers In-Reply-To: <200407131059.1bKryA4MP3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2004, at 1:58 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Lawfare; Early American Newspapers > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > LAWFARE > > Maybe some lawyers are on this list? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 13 > July 2004, pg. A14: > > _"Lawfare"_ > By Jeremy Rabkin > > Maj. Michael Newton, a military lawyer who teaches at West Point, > coined a new term earlier this year--"lawfare." What does "lawfare" mean? -Wilson Gray > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS > > Good morning Mr. Popik! > > I'm pleased to pass on that we've made our first release of the Early > American Newspapers - Digitized! > > Janet > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Jul 13 21:49:13 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:49:13 -0500 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <200407132118.i6DLIc120508@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Orin Hargraves wrote: > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > The dog up and died, > he up and died. Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.) Jim Parish From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 14 00:53:04 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:53:04 -0400 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <40F2C0E1@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: At 5:11 PM -0400 7/13/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: >I just got around to watching an episode of The Forsyte Saga from BBC >>> on a tape I'd made a few months ago. I have no idea if this dialogue >>> is taken straight from Galsworthy, but at one point Jolyon Forsyte >>> acknowledges to his detested cousin Soames (the former's son Jon has >>> fallen in love with the latter's daughter Fleur, in defiance of the >>> animosity between the branches of the family) that "Jon just upped and >>> left last night without a word". I rewound several times to confirm >>> the final cluster in [@pt]; it's definitely audible. (This part is set >>> in the early 20th century, and the characters are upper crust, albeit >>> nouveau.) > >Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I haven't >got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > >The dog up and died, >he up and died. > After 20 years he still grieves. Yup, but that one is definitely "up and", as you note, not "upped and". Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 14 02:04:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:04:11 -0400 Subject: Walt Whitman's baseball quote (surely not 1846!) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040711172627.02574658@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The Sarandon character concludes her quotation of Whitman with a quotation > of Casey Stengel: "You can look it up." As discussed before here, this is actually a James Thurber quote. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pds at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 03:51:18 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:51:18 -0500 Subject: upped and... In-Reply-To: <20040713214819.28A675ACE@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: "Mr. Bojangles," (c) by JJ Walker in 1967, and covered by Bob Dylan, the Dirt Band, everyone and their uncle. A Web site claiming to be quoting the liner notes on Walker's album has it: "His dog up and died, he up and died." --Tom Kysilko At 7/13/2004 04:49 PM -0500, Jim Parish wrote: >Orin Hargraves wrote: > > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I > haven't > > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > > > The dog up and died, > > he up and died. > >Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty >Dirt Band.) Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 05:30:34 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:30:34 -0500 Subject: First Gentleman Message-ID: From http://www.abebooks.com: First Gentleman's Cookbook ORR, William D. Price: US$ 12.99 Shipping: Book Description: Lincoln, Nebraska: Ayres and Associates Inc. 1989. Soft Cover. Fine/No Jacket. First Edition. 4to - over 9?" - 12" tall. A colorful collection of recipes and anecdotes compiled by the husband of Kay Orr, governor of Nebraska 1989-1993. Includes his favorites such as Celebrate Nebraska Burgers, Governor's Loaf, Mom's Potato Salad, Trooper's Ribs and Kay's Swedish Rye Bread. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 14 05:40:26 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:40:26 -0500 Subject: First Gentleman -- a couple more uses Message-ID: Michigan's First Gentleman Welcome to the official Michigan.gov web site. This site uses adaptive technology. Instructions are provided within the Accessibility Policy. Skip Navigation ... www.michigan.gov/firstgentleman/ - 23k - Jul 12, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages First Gentleman to stay out of limelight - Jun. 25, 2004 FIRST Gentleman Jose Miguel 'Mike' Arroyo, who has become a convenient target of his wife's political enemies, intends to maintain the low profile he assumed ... www.inq7.net/nat/2004/jun/25/nat_10-1.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jul 14 11:42:01 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:42:01 -0400 Subject: question Message-ID: From: James A. Landau (Or at least i think i got the attribution right--OEQuoteFix doesn't like the latest list digest, for some reason.) : What happens when the pastor is a woman, and married? Is there a : label for her husband? (I know the same question would arise for the : husband of a (female) president or governor, and I think the answer : is that there's no such label, because there's no role of "first : gentleman" or whatever, but I just wanted to confirm this intuition.) Just noting that counterexamples to the claim that "there's no role of 'first gentleman' or whatever" have been recently posted--the husbands of the female governors of Michigan and Utah are both referred to, officially, as their states' first gentlemen. Betty Crocker's (1956) _Guide to entertaining_ notwithstanding, married men *can* host social functions these days. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jul 14 12:43:51 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:51 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning I was reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently well-established word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the easy search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it here: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/index.html Geoff (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jul 14 13:45:18 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:45:18 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: The word _mongo_ (derived perhaps from _mungo_, meaning "inferior wool made from felted rags and wastes" [OED: 1857]) is found in BDNE3 (e.q. 1979) with the definition: "objects of salvage, especially as considered of use or value by scavengers." Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jul 14 13:56:59 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:56:59 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040714083653.026db0e0@mail.wayne.edu> Message-ID: I couldn't take it quite as far back as David, but I put up an entry on "mongo" a few weeks ago: http://doubletongued.org/index.php/mongo/ G On Jul 14, 2004, at 08:43, Geoff Nathan wrote: > I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning > I was > reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently > well-established > word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the > easy > search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning > high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the > street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it > here: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/ > index.html > > Geoff > > (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 14 22:24:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:24:12 -0400 Subject: R. W. Burchfield In-Reply-To: <20040714040624.A48F722870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >>> Unfortunately, having grown up in a house whose backyard was a chicken yard, I am only too familiar with the manner in which (some) birds copulate. Given that the first thing that a rooster does after finishing with a chicken is to kick that chicken aside with his spurs, I long imagined that it was this brutal dismissal of the female partner immediately after the climax of the sex act that had given rise to the verb "spurn," despite that fact that the cliche is, "_she_ spurned _his_ advances." <<< I checked in the OED Online. Your guess about the association with "spur" is evidently a good one, but not for the reason that you were thinking of: >>> [The stem is prob. that of SPUR n.[1]] I. intr. 1. To strike against something with the foot; to trip or stumble. Also fig. Obs. b. In proverbial contrast with speed. Chiefly Sc[ottish]. 2. To strike or thrust with the foot; to kick (at something). Obs. b. In allusive phrases. Obs. (Cf. KICK v.1 1c.) c. To strike at with a weapon. Obs. 1 d. To dash; to drive quickly. Obs. 3. fig. To kick against or at something disliked or despised; to manifest opposition or antipathy, esp. in a scornful or disdainful manner. II. trans. 4. To strike (the foot) against something. Obs. 5. To strike or tread (something) with the foot; to trample or kick. In later use freq. with implication of contempt. b. With advs. or advb. phrases, as away, down, off, up, etc. Also fig. 6. To reject with contempt or disdain; to treat contemptuously; to scorn or despise. <<< -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 15 03:12:31 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:12:31 -0400 Subject: Pro-fil-ac-tic Message-ID: When I was a lad in the 1950s, I worked in a drug store as a stock boy, floor cleaner, soda jerk. On the counter of the prescription area, directly next to the cash register, was a wooden display case for combs. It had a glass front displaying maybe a dozen models. The customer would select the model he wanted and the pharmacist would remove a comb from the stock in the back of this small cabinet. Across the top of this cabinet was the brand name of the combs -- Pro-fil-ac-tic, with the syllables and dashes in place. I always figured it was an aide memoire for customers who had a more colorful name for these devices which, at that time, could be sold only to prevent disease, not just to have fun. They could read off the comb case and not run afoul of the law or 50s sensibilities. Tonight, watching a program on the History Channel on bathroom technology (I don't have much of a life), they showed an early nylon toothbrush from the 1930s. On the box it had the same pro-fil-ac-tic spelled out, not as a brand name, but in smaller print as an attribute. Was I wrong about the insidious intent of the comb case? Or was this syllabic spelling a convention of some sort and for some other purpose? D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 12:57:06 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:57:06 -0400 Subject: upped and... Message-ID: I have known a lot of people who up and died since I was raised in southern Illinois in the 1950s. I can't explain it but they just up and died. Normally it refers to sudden deaths. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: Re: upped and... > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Kysilko > Subject: Re: upped and... > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > "Mr. Bojangles," (c) by JJ Walker in 1967, and covered by Bob Dylan, the > Dirt Band, everyone and their uncle. A Web site claiming to be quoting the > liner notes on Walker's album has it: > "His dog up and died, he up and died." > --Tom Kysilko > > At 7/13/2004 04:49 PM -0500, Jim Parish wrote: > >Orin Hargraves wrote: > > > Another pop. cult. cite is in the 1970s song "Mr. Bojangles," which I > > haven't > > > got a recording of, but in my head the lyric is: > > > > > > The dog up and died, > > > he up and died. > > > >Your memory is correct. (I do have a recording; it's by the Nitty Gritty > >Dirt Band.) > > > Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services > pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA > http://www.visi.com/~pds From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 13:07:36 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:07:36 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel Brooks used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in "Blazing Saddles"? Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of insulting the retarded by calling them mongoloids. Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to do with any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into town a Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". I trust you know the reference. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I couldn't take it quite as far back as David, but I put up an entry on > "mongo" a few weeks ago: > > http://doubletongued.org/index.php/mongo/ > > G > > On Jul 14, 2004, at 08:43, Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > I hope I'm not violating this list's etiquette here, but this morning > > I was > > reading the news on CNN's website and found an apparently > > well-established > > word that isn't in the list's archive (at least not as far back as the > > easy > > search) nor is it in OED or AHD. The word is 'mongo', meaning > > high-quality, cast-off furniture and other stuff found on the > > street. There's a new book about it--you can read about it > > here: > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/13/trash.furniture.reut/ > > index.html > > > > Geoff > > > > (FWIW Mongo is also a unit of currency in Mongolia, apparently) > > > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:28:25 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:28:25 -0700 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <00ee01c46a6c$b3353f40$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:07 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel > Brooks > used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in > "Blazing Saddles"? > > Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of > insulting the > retarded by calling them mongoloids. > > Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to > do with > any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into > town a > Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". > > I trust you know the reference. this "mongo" -- 'huge' (and also 'very many/much') -- might well have its origin in Blazing Saddles; at least, that's the earliest cite HDAS (which glosses it HUMONGOUS, suggesting that as a derivation) has. almost surely a different word from the trash "mongo". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:44:57 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:44:57 -0700 Subject: on the blend slip watch Message-ID: a blend slip, caught on All Things Considered, 7/14/04, cycling expert talking about Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France: He'll have a lot of more competition. [presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jul 15 17:14:02 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:14:02 -0500 Subject: on the blend slip watch Message-ID: At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a blend slip, caught on All Things Considered, 7/14/04, cycling expert >talking about Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France: > >He'll have a lot of more competition. > >[presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements are "a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] competition" Gerald Cohen From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 15 17:30:34 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:30:34 -0700 Subject: on the blend slip watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> He'll have a lot of more competition. >> >> [presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] > > Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements > are > "a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] > competition" that's what i intended to type. though what i did type is not entirely out of the question. arnold From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 17:35:59 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:35:59 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Mongo Santamaria is a jazz musician and a very good one. It was a cheap joke on the part of Mel Brooks which shows how little most people who do not play music or know anything about it know about jazz. Mongo! :) Santamaria! Page Stephens PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:07 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > > > Do any of you remember the complaints about the name Mongo which Mel > > Brooks > > used for a huge dimwitted person played by Alex Karras as I recall in > > "Blazing Saddles"? > > > > Defenders of the retarded got up in arms and accused Brooks of > > insulting the > > retarded by calling them mongoloids. > > > > Brooks then had to explain to them that it had nothing whatsoever to > > do with > > any insult but was merely a cheap joke since when Mongo rides into > > town a > > Mexican shouts out, "Mongo, Santamaria!". > > > > I trust you know the reference. > > this "mongo" -- 'huge' (and also 'very many/much') -- might well have > its origin in Blazing Saddles; at least, that's the earliest cite HDAS > (which glosses it HUMONGOUS, suggesting that as a derivation) has. > almost surely a different word from the trash "mongo". > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 15 18:42:57 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:42:57 -0400 Subject: on the blend slip watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 15, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >>At 8:44 AM -0700 7/15/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >>>He'll have a lot of more competition. >>> >>>[presumably: a lot more competition + a lot of competition] >> >>Thanks, Arnold, for this example. I suppose the two blending elements >>are >>"a lot more competition" and "a lot of additional [or: extra] >>competition" > >that's what i intended to type. though what i did type is not entirely >out of the question. > >arnold actually I find "a lot of competition", as in Arnold's original post, to be a far more natural blendee here than the other ("extra" or "additional") options. "They won't offer {much/a lot of} competition" is a standard collocation, while "a lot of {extra/additional} competition" doesn't seem that likely. This is borne out via google, which yields just 2 and 1 hits respectively for these, compared with 35,200 for "a lot of competition" tout court. In fact, even "(There is) a lot of more competition" itself, ill-formed as it is, has as many hits (1) as "a lot of additional competition". larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jul 15 19:29:55 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:29:55 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 PM -0500 wrote: > >PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. Or, when??? From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 20:07:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:44 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <200407151230.1bLbVEc93NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barnhart > Subject: Re: Mongo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 > PM > -0500 wrote: >> >> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. > > Or, when??? Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. -Wilson Gray > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 15 20:55:27 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:55:27 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Which does remind me of Nomar Garciaparra's name since Nomar is Ramon spelled backwards. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Mongo > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Mongo > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Barnhart > > Subject: Re: Mongo > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 > > PM > > -0500 wrote: > >> > >> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. > > > > Or, when??? > > Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish > nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced > approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. > > -Wilson Gray > > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 15 21:39:09 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:39:09 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several jazz histories say that Ramon Santamaria's father nicknamed him "Mongo" after a Senegalese Chief. "Mongo" is indeed a West African name, and African traditions are quite strong in Cuba. Is the derivation of "Mongo" from "Ramon" (based on the phonology of the last syllable, indeed accurate for Cuban Spanish) attested? dInIs >On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Barnhart >>Subject: Re: Mongo >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 >>PM >>-0500 wrote: >>> >>>PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. >> >>Or, when??? > >Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish >nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced >approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jul 15 22:03:49 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:03:49 -0400 Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci Message-ID: Does anyone know of a language scholar named Claudio R. Salvucci? He has (self?) published a "PHILADELPHIA DIALECT DICTIONARY" (1996 $38), a GRAMMAR OF THE PHILADELPHIA DIALECT (1998, $42), vocabularies of Etruscan & Oscan, each about 40+ pp., (@ $32) and a couple of things about American Indian languages. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 16 00:45:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:45:57 -0400 Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci In-Reply-To: <200407151503.1bLekE63B3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Check this out: -Wilson Gray On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:03 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Claudio R. Salvucci > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Does anyone know of a language scholar named Claudio R. Salvucci? He > has (self?) published a "PHILADELPHIA DIALECT DICTIONARY" (1996 $38), > a GRAMMAR OF THE PHILADELPHIA DIALECT (1998, $42), vocabularies of > Etruscan & Oscan, each about 40+ pp., (@ $32) and a couple of things > about American Indian languages. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 16 02:27:49 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:27:49 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <200407151440.1bLdXD5YU3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: It's generally supposed that the African traditions of Cuba, including santeria, are based upon the Yoruba traditions of Nigeria and not those of Senegal. Of course, you never know, given that black Americans use "going to Jenegal" - where "Jenegal" is clearly based upon "Senegal" - to mean "going to West Hell/the back of Beyond/etc." and survivals of African traditions are trivial in the US. In any case, Mongo told me himself that his nom-de-musique was a nickname for "Ramon." Of course, that doesn't make it true. People don't always wish to explain themselves to strangers and it's easier to say "It's a nickname" than to give a full, unnecessary explanation to an idle question from a nightclub patron. I first saw Mongo in person in 1958 in a little club in L.A. so tiny that he and I were less than an arm's-length apart. At that time, he was the conguero for Cal Tjader's conjunto. During the intermission, my friends and I, who grew up in Saint Louis, struck up a conversation with Tjader, who was a native of Saint Louis, and the other guys, Mongo, Willie Bobo, the timbalero, and Al McKibbon, the bassist. In any case, it's not always possible to document a nickname, especially one that may be peculiar to a minority group or perhaps just to a particular family. -Wilson Gray On Jul 15, 2004, at 5:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Mongo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Several jazz histories say that Ramon Santamaria's father nicknamed > him "Mongo" after a Senegalese Chief. "Mongo" is indeed a West > African name, and African traditions are quite strong in Cuba. Is the > derivation of "Mongo" from "Ramon" (based on the phonology of the > last syllable, indeed accurate for Cuban Spanish) attested? > > dInIs > >> On Jul 15, 2004, at 3:29 PM, Barnhart wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Barnhart >>> Subject: Re: Mongo >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Page Stephens on Thursday, July 15, 2004 at 1:35 >>> PM >>> -0500 wrote: >>>> >>>> PS I do not have any idea where he got his name. >>> >>> Or, when??? >> >> Probably at birth. "Mongo" is one of several possible Cuban-Spanish >> nicknames based upon the the standard name, "Ramon," pronounced >> approximately [rra-MOANG], hence [MOANG-go]. >> >> -Wilson Gray > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 16 02:42:45 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:45 -0400 Subject: Mongo Message-ID: Barnhart: <> The form is exactly right and the semantic connection is possibly acceptable but I doubt this derivation because this "mungo" is just too unfamiliar a word in modern times. One "Mongo" which was well known in the 1970's was the planet ruled by the evil Ming in "Flash Gordon". However, I see no semantic connection. Here is another possible derivation. Note that "mongo" means not only "scavenged material" but also "scavenger" (e.g., in HDAS and in Green's Cassell slang dictionary); which one is primary? The word "junkmonger" = "junk dealer" has/had sufficient currency to be the etymon, I believe, but is also uncommon enough that it might easily be construed as "junk monger" = "junk scavenger" giving "monger" = "scavenger", which could be altered to "mongo" = "scavenger" and/or used to derive "mongo" = "that which the monger scavenges". "Scrapmonger" would be an alternative candidate etymon. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 16 02:56:52 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:56:52 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715221826.02f306c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Googling with <<"ramon mongo" -santamaria>> produces a number of examples of various men named Ramon and nicknamed "Mongo". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 03:02:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:19 EDT Subject: Coolidge quote on preacher & sin:"He was against it" (1925) Message-ID: LAWFARE--The Wall Street Journal story said that it means "warfare" through lawyers. I didn't go too deeply into it because I had a lunch "hour" of two minutes and Fred Shapiro would've re-checked, anyway. ------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COOLIDGE QUOTE >From the NEW YORK SUN, 15 July 2004, pg. 9, col. 2: There's an old joke Democrats used to tell about President Coolidge, a man of few words. It seems the president attended church one Sunday, while Mrs. Coolidge remained at the White House. On his return, anxious that she might have missed something significant, the first lady asker her husband about the preacher's sermon topic. "He spoke about sin," the president replied. :What did he say," Mrs. Coolidge inquired. "He was against it." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gastonia Daily Gazette Saturday, January 16, 1926 Gastonia, North Carolina ...did tHE preacHEr say about "HE WAS AGAINST IT." tHE cITv school faculty.....FisHEr, Mrs. J. L. Ross, Mrs. Joe "SIN." until tHEir new home on Sixth and.. _"Cal" Practice Economy_ The latest Coolidge story characteristic of the President's economy in government as well as words, as told by one of his friends over the radio, is: President Coolidge attended church some time since unaccompanied by Mrs. Coolidge. Upon his return to the WHite House, Mrs. Coolidge asked him whether the sermon was good. To which he replied: "Yes." "What was it about?" "Sin." "What did the preacher say about it?" "He was against it/" Morning News Review Sunday, February 28, 1926 Florence, South Carolina ...SIN." "What did tHE minister "HE WAS AGAINST IT." ninny proposals for.....going home one night in a ttarncur. IT WAS late, and tHE man who sat next to.. Bridgeport Telegram Wednesday, March 09, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...preach "SIN." "Yes, but what did HE say about j "lie WAS AGAINST IT." Mr.....along IT WAS till tHE voice broke up AGAINST tlvo mountains. Dr. Kcott WAS a.. Daily Northwestern Friday, January 06, 1933 Oshkosh, Wisconsin ...Coolidge said right back, 'Why, HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Jones, Republican, had much.....HE had finisHEd. about and HE said 'SIN.' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what tHE.. Chronicle Telegram Friday, January 06, 1933 Elyria, Ohio ...Coolidge said right back 'Why, HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Ohio, York and too lb.....what tHE sermon WAS about and HE said 'SIN' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what t HE I.. Charleston Daily Mail Friday, January 06, 1933 Charleston, West Virginia ...Coolidge said right back 'why, HE WAS AGAINST IT..' Message to Congress.....what Uie sermon WAS about and HE said 'SIN.' Mrs. Coolidge asked him what t HE.. Hammond Times Monday, July 08, 1957 Hammond, Indiana ...persisted. "My husband replied 'HE WAS AGAINST IT.' Mrs. Coolidge said tHE ex.....replied 'yes.' 'What WAS IT -I asked. 'SIN' said tHE late President. 'What did.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. Coolidge's Economy Extends -- To His Report of a Sermon Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1925. p. 1 (1 page) ON BOARD THE PRESIDENT'S TRAIN, on Way to Chicago, Cumberland, Md., Dec, 6.--The latest Coolidge story, characteristic of the President's economy in words as well as in Government expenses, is being told on the President's train traveling to Chicago. As told by one of his friends, this is the story: President Coolidge attended church some time ago unaccompanied by Mrs. Coolidge. One his return to the White House Mrs. Coolidge asked him whether the sermon was good, to which he replied, "Yes." "What was it about?" "Sin." "What did the preacher say about it?" "He was against it." 2. OUR LOQUACIOUS PRESIDENT The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 12, 1925. p. 6 (1 page) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 05:17:15 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:17:15 EDT Subject: Amateurs Built Ark,Professionals Built Titanic (1990) Message-ID: AMATEURS BUILT THE ARK; PROFESSIONALS BUILT THE TITANIC I'm away from FACTIVA. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374618 Question Subject: Origin of saying "..amateurs built the ark - professionals built the Titanic..". Category: Arts and Entertainment > Books and Literature Asked by: tomazos-ga List Price: $5.00 Posted: 15 Jul 2004 12:54 PDT Expires: 14 Aug 2004 12:54 PDT Question ID: 374618 What is the origin of the saying "...amateurs built the ark -professionals built the Titanic..."? Answer Log in to add an answer There is no answer at this time. Comments Log in to add a comment Subject: Re: Origin of saying "..amateurs built the ark - professionals built the Titanic..". From: pinkfreud-ga on 15 Jul 2004 13:29 PDT There are many online mentions of a similar quote attributed to Dave Barry, but I have found no evidence that Barry is the actual source,nor any verifiable citation. The quote does not appear anywhere on Dave Barry's official website.http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8& q=professionals+ark+titanic+%22dave+barry (GOOGLE GROUPS) COWS ... B: Lord, how'd he do that? A: Lodged in his throat. Regards, ....Bill --- . MegaMail 2.1. #0:Professionals built the Titanic;amateurs the ark . QNet3. . ... comp.sys.mac.misc - Jun 26, 1993 by Bill Drissel - View Thread (5 articles) Disappearing directory listings.. ... It was the amateurs who built Noah's Ark, but it was the professionals %%% who designed and built the Titanic" - British Olympic official %%%%% bit.listserv.novell - Jan 25, 1993 by Sarah Finn x3043 - Maths Support Staff - View Thread (1 article) Re: Let's hear from the lurkers! ... day. Could make for some interesting different threads..... Bill.etc | Professionals built the Titanic--amateurs the ark. | - anon. soc.singles - Oct 24, 1990 by Bill HMRP Vajk - View Thread (40 articles) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 16 11:30:11 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:30:11 -0400 Subject: Coolidge quote on preacher & sin:"He was against it" (1925) In-Reply-To: <7b.2e7638c9.2e289f3b@aol.com> Message-ID: The version I always knew had Coolidge saying he was "agin it." A search for that phrase and "Coolidge" does not turn up an antedating, but it does turn up a lot of cites. Grant > "He spoke about sin," the president replied. > > :What did he say," Mrs. Coolidge inquired. > > "He was against it." -- Grant Barrett Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang" (2004) Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester http://www.doubletongued.org/ Webmaster, American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org/ From jmb at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 16 13:38:57 2004 From: jmb at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:38:57 -0700 Subject: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers Message-ID: *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. A French novel sans verbs (though not sans verbals). A correspondingly verbless article from page 1 of today's Wall Street Journal. John Baker ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed. Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=150&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=384962998&partnerID=150&pt=Y ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 16 13:56:02 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:56:02 -0400 Subject: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few Pallbearers In-Reply-To: <27934881.1089985137018.JavaMail.tomcat@localhost> Message-ID: LanguageLog, a group blog operated by linguists, some who are on this list, had several posts about the book and related topics, including writing without other parts of speech. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000884.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000885.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000886.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000887.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000889.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000890.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000891.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000892.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000900.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000902.html (Sorry for all the links. The LanguageLog folks tend to post new entries instead of just having a discussion attached to a single entry, which makes this kind of ridiculousness necessary.) Grant On Jul 16, 2004, at 09:38, Baker, John wrote: > *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. > > > > A French novel sans verbs (though not sans verbals). A > correspondingly verbless article from page 1 of today's Wall Street > Journal. > > John Baker > > > > > > ******************** > > If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if > the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions > at the bottom of this email. > > Title: WSJ.com - All Talk, No Action: A Funeral for Verbs, With Few > Pallbearers > This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online > Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed. > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent > link: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y > > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: > http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp? > clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=150&etMailToID=384962998&pt=Y > > > Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this > link: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=forward&etMailToID=384962998&partnerID=150&pt=Y > > > > ******************** > > > Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to > your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: > http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis? > clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" > > > ********************* > > > > Instructions: > ----------------------------------------- > If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: > 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to > highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line > in your email. > 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. > 3. Launch your Web browser. > 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the > Edit menu. > 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. > > ******************** > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 15:24:28 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:24:28 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: Jones Makes Team, and a Statement The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance (23'4") in the long jump. So she made (= qualified for) the team, and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated. Clearly very different senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally (one assumes) elided. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 15:58:37 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0400 Subject: Mongo In-Reply-To: <003601c46aae$0ef186e0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0400 7/15/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Which does remind me of Nomar Garciaparra's name since Nomar is Ramon >spelled backwards. > >Page Stephens and for those wondering why, Nomar's father is Ramon (>Mongo?) Garciaparra. larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 16 16:22:49 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:22:49 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Metaphorically or even semantically (and in some cases grammatically) distinct conjoinings are always interesting. I once had an MA candidate years ago who did an experimental (grammaticality judgment) survey, beginning with such absurdities as "He looked up her number and then the stairwell." I remember being surprised at the number of things found acceptable which we thought would be ruled out, particularly the conjoining of these verb+particle and verb+PP forms (which I find very ugly, although I'm not really happy with some of the metaphoric conjoinings either - "He climbed the ladder of success and his back stairs all in one day"). dInIs (who, fortunately, will not run for public office and be branded a zeugmaphiliac, by Fox News or anybody else) Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: Jones Makes Team, and a Statement The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance (23'4") in the long jump. So she made (= qualified for) the team, and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated. Clearly very different senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally (one assumes) elided. larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 16 16:54:17 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:54:17 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:22 PM -0400 7/16/04, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Metaphorically or even semantically (and in some cases grammatically) >distinct conjoinings are always interesting. I once had an MA >candidate years ago who did an experimental (grammaticality judgment) >survey, beginning with such absurdities as "He looked up her number >and then the stairwell." I remember being surprised at the number of >things found acceptable which we thought would be ruled out, >particularly the conjoining of these verb+particle and verb+PP forms >(which I find very ugly, although I'm not really happy with some of >the metaphoric conjoinings either - "He climbed the ladder of success >and his back stairs all in one day"). One of my favorite non-elliptical zeugmas could have been turned into a similar reduced form but for the exigencies of meter: She blew my nose and then [she blew] my mind. --Jagger & Richard (1971) larry From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jul 16 17:32:57 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:32:57 +0000 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: <20040716152438.199B45239@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The zeugmaphiles' Valhalla, I would maintain, is Flanders and Swann's Madeira M'Dear She was young, she was pure, she was new, she was nice, She was fair, she was sweet seventeen. He was old, he was vile and no stranger to vice, He was base, he was bad, he was mean. He had slyly enveigled her up to his flat To view his collection of stamps >>>And he said as he hastened to put out the cat, <<< >>>The wine, his cigar and the lamps: <<< "Have some Madeira, m'Dear! You really have nothing to fear. I'm not trying to tempt you, that wouldn't be right; You shouldn't drink spirits at this time of night. Have some Madeira, m'Dear! It's so very much nicer than beer. I don't care for sherry and cannot drink stout And port is a wine I can well do without. It's simply a case of "cha?un ? son go?t". Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Unaware of the wiles of the snake in the grass And the fate of the maiden who topes, >>>She lowered her standards by raising her glass,<<< >>>Her courage, her eyes and his hopes. <<< She sipped it, she drank it, she drained it, she did And quietly he filled it again And he said as he secretly carved one more notch On the butt of his gold-handled cane. "Have some Madeira, m'Dear! I've got a small cask of it here And once it's been opened, you know it won't keep Do finish it up, it will help you to sleep. Have some Madeira, m'Dear! It's really an excellent year. Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes, The evil gin does would be hard to assess (Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess) Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Then there flashed though her mind what her mother had said With her antepenultimate breath: "Oh my child, should you look at the wine which is red Be prepared for a fate worse than death!" She let go her glass with a shrill little cry. Crash! Tinkle! It fell to the floor. >>>When he asked "what in Heaven?" she made no reply, <<< >>>Up her mind, a dash for the door. <<< "Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" Rang out down the hall, loud and clear, A tremulous cry that was filled with despair As she paused to take breath in the full midnight air. "Have some Madeira, m'Dear!" The words seemed to ring in her ear Until the next morning, she woke up in bed With a smile on her lips, an ache in her head And a beard in her earhole that tickled and said: "Have some Madeira, m'Dear Quoting Laurence Horn : > Headline in today's NYT Sports Section, p. D1: > Jones Makes Team, and a Statement --Tom Kysilko From LJT777 at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:49:11 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:49:11 EDT Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: This amused me, and I thought it might you as well. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:49:59 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:49:59 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20for=20all=20you=20zeugmap?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hiles=20out=20there...?= Message-ID: Clearly the headline writer was aware of the zuegmarhetorical nature of the utterance--that is the reason for the comma. In a message dated 7/16/04 11:24:51 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > Jones Makes Team, and a Statement > > The reference is to Marion Jones, the track and field star recently > under investigation by the Anti-Doping Agency for using illegal > performance-enhancing drugs, which she has vigorously denied doing. > In previous trial heats for the U.S. Olympic team, Jones turned in > disappointing performances and there was some thought she might not > make the team, but yesterday she turned in a strong performance > (23'4") in the long jump.? So she made (= qualified for) the team, > and thereby (metaphorically) made a statement that the rumors of her > athletic demise were somewhat exaggerated.? Clearly very different > senses of "make" involved here that the headline writer intentionally > (one assumes) elided. > From LJT777 at AOL.COM Fri Jul 16 17:59:15 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:59:15 EDT Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... Message-ID: Oh dear. I am so, so sorry. I thought I had forwarded this to a friend. Lindsie Tucker From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jul 17 00:55:48 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:55:48 -0700 Subject: inadvertent relevance Message-ID: examples like the following are easy to find, but i was especially tickled by this one. it's the beginning of a section of the 7/16/04 All Things Considered coverage of the day's news: "Martha Stewart is sentenced, and wildfires spread in the West." now *that's* a powerful woman! arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 17 01:09:54 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:09:54 -0400 Subject: inadvertent relevance In-Reply-To: <0AE4CEDA-D78C-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >examples like the following are easy to find, but i was especially >tickled by this one. it's the beginning of a section of the 7/16/04 >All Things Considered coverage of the day's news: "Martha Stewart is >sentenced, and wildfires spread in the West." > >now *that's* a powerful woman! Martha: "I am woman - hear me roar!" Bethany From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 17 15:40:56 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:40:56 -0700 Subject: A Little More On "First Lady" In-Reply-To: <0AE4CEDA-D78C-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Regarding its use for the wife of a pastor, my brother, a Presbyterian minister in New Jersey, has never heard "First Lady" used in this context. "Minister's wife [or husband]" is the term that is overwhelmingly prevalent in his experience. Back ca.1990 he was the director of admissions at Dubuque (Iowa) Theological Seminary. Around then the "student wives group" changed its name to the "spouses group." He did, however, find some school newspapers from the early 1960s that referred to the wives group as the "Parsonettes." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 17 16:52:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:52:18 EDT Subject: White Trash Russian, Poor Man's Margarita, Muddy Bottom, Colt Python Message-ID: I couldn't get the free column through www.metro.us, so I'll have to type it out. The METRO article appears to be a reprint of something written in the COLLEGE TIMES, September 15, 2003. Both articles begin "On a dare last weekend..." http://www.ecollegetimes.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/15/3f65ee58e15ee METRO (NY), weekend, July 16-18, 2004 THE IMBIBER DAN DUNN _Poor-man mixers you can stomach_ ON A DARE last weekend, The Imbiber tried something called a "_White-trash Russian_": A dreadful combination of Bowman's Virginia vodka and Yoo-Hoo. I'm almost certain it did some irreparable damage to my stomach lining and, quite possibly, the central nervous system. (...) "The '_Poor Man's Magarita_'--tequila and Squirt--is a popular one out west," says former GQ mixologist Terry Sullivan. "And in some eastern cities, large parties used to get by on "_Purple Passions_'--Welch's grape juice and grain alcohol. But I hear that '_Blue Lagoons_'--whatever that blue sports drink crap is plus grain alcohol--have recently supplanted them in some circles." Cash-strapped drunks in Chicago swear by "_Muddy Bottoms_," a potent combination of Green River "gourmet" soda and cheap bourbon. I've heard that during the great urine test scare a few years back, some less-than-tasteful folks in New York used to serve a lovely thing called "_Pee in the Bottle_"--Mouuntain Dew and vodka or Everclear in plastic specimen cups. Warm--for verisimilitude. Some of the curb-sitters in my old neighborhodd used to specialize in what was known as the "_Colt Python_," by adding a couple of shots of whatever cheap blended whiskey was on sale at the state store to a half-quart of Colt 45 malt liquor. WHITE TRASH RUSSIAN--35 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits POOR MAN'S MARGARITA--21 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits PURPLE PASSIONS + GRAPE JUICE--6 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits PURPLE PASSION + GRAPE JUICE--426 Google hits, 90 Google Groups hits BLUE LAGOONS + SPORTS DRINK--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits MUDDY BOTTOMS + GREEN RIVER + SODA--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits PEE IN THE BOTTLE + MOUNTAIN DEW--7 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits PEE IN A BOTTLE + MOUNTAIN DEW--15 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits COLT PYTHON + COLT 45 MALT + WHISKEY--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- EFFEN The Metro article cuts out this continuation, available on the College Times site: Of course, trying to cop a load on the cheap anywhere these days can be a daunting task. Still, there are other worthwhile imbiberly pursuits to keep you occupied during these long, hot dog days of Arizona's extended summer. For many years now, I've regularly indulged my mischievous inner-child by ordering cocktails with such provocative names as Sex On The Beach (a Madras, with peach schnapps) and Slippery Nipple (Bailey's, Kahlua and butterscotch schnapps). Some of the most superbly sublime moments in my illustrious nightlife career have involved tomfoolery along the lines of roguishly asking attractive barmistresses for a Long Kiss Goodnight (vanilla vodka and cr?me de cacao) or Their Phone Number (a scowl and a double-shot of cold rejection served straight-up). And silly sexual innuendo isn't the only fun to be had when ordering drinks when you're at the bar instead of, say, at home, studying. In fact, a brand new vodka from Holland could be the greatest thing to happen to smart-asses since the invention of plastic dog shit and whoopee cushions. It's called Effen, and it is pronounced precisely as it's spelled. As in, "Hey bartender, can I get some Effen vodka in this drink?" or "This is the best Effen vodka I've ever tasted" or "Man, when are the Effen Cardinals gonna' do the right thing by us and move to Los Angeles?" From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sat Jul 17 23:25:50 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:25:50 -0400 Subject: Ladies and Gentlemen, the firsts In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$30d6fs@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: What to call Mr. Shaheen? Speaking to guests at a house party fundraiser for John Kerry in Brewster last night, former New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen recounted a discussion she had with her husband, Bill Shaheen, after she was elected in 1996. Both Shaheens were breaking new ground - she as the Granite State's first female governor, he as its first male spouse of a governor. So, how now to refer to Mr. Shaheen? After suggestions of "First Man" and "First Gentleman" were floated aloud, Bill Shaheen had a better idea, his wife said - "I want to be First Hunk!" 07/08/2004 http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/edits/cctblogs/jc/ ********************************************************* This site makes a clear distinction between First Ladies (wives) and first women/females in certain offices: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/1402/frststat.html Mrs. Nellie Tayloe Ross became the first woman governor in the United States. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108293.html Mrs. Ferguson served as the first lady of Texas during the gubernatorial terms of her husband (1915-17), who was impeached during his second administration. When James Ferguson failed to get his name on the ballot in 1924, Miriam entered the race for the Texas governorship. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/FF/ffe6.html [election catchphrase: "Two governors for the price of one!"] "Miriam "Ma" Ferguson was both first lady and governor (twice) - she was the first female governor of Texas and the second female governor in the US." http://austin.about.com/cs/pregnancy/a/babynames.htm ********************************************************* Patricia Rowland, First Lady of CT, wife of 86th governor, John Rowland: http://www.ct.gov/governorrowland/cwp/view.asp?a=1329&q=256000 vs. Governor Jodi Rell, 87th Governor of CT and her husband, Mr. Louis Rell http://www.ct.gov/governorrell/cwp/view.asp?Q=276026&A=1720 ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 18 02:42:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:42:32 -0400 Subject: Ark/amateurs, Titanic/professionals (from Factiva) (1979);Spoiler Message-ID: Every week this happens. You work all week. Then it's Saturday, and you try to sleep late. Then you walk over to the New York Public Library, where David Shulman has more poems to read to you. Then you walk to NYU to get some work done, and Pro Quest tells you it's down until tomorrow for maintenance. ------------------------------------------------------------- ARK/AMATEURS, TITANIC/PROFESSIONALS More on this phrase, if it floats your boat. Is it Canadian? British? (FACTIVA) News When Canadians feel tired, they go away for a holiday, from which ... Richard J. Needham 828 words 13 June 1979 The Globe and Mail P6 English All material copyright Thomson Canada Limited or its licensors. All rights reserved. When Canadians feel tired, they go away for a holiday, from which they return totally exhausted. -30 G. M. Trevelyan: Socrates gave no diplomas or degrees, and would have subjected any disciple who demanded one to a disconcerting catechism on the nature of true knowledge. Alberta took the gas and oil out of the ground and has a Heritage Fund of $5-billion to show for it. Ontario took the metal out of the ground and has billion-dollar deficits to show for it. -30 It started with the notion, Carefully cultivated by the "educators", that you need a diploma or degree to get a good job. This notion then linked hands with the notion, carefully cultivated by the politicians, that every body has the right to a good job. A third notion logically followed - that everybody, regardless of intelligence or achievement, has the right to be given a diploma or degree. The end of the process, now well in sight, is that all have diplomas, all have degrees, and all are illiterate. John Robert Colombo had a collection of Parkinson-style laws in this paper the other day, and was kind enough to include three that I dreamed up. By way of thanks, I'll print a few such laws that I ran across recently; I've sent their various origins to Mr. Colombo in case he wants to bird-dog them down. Any time you don't want anything, you get it. A lost article invariably shows up after you replace it. Don't talk unless you can improve the silence. The other line moves faster. If there isn't a law, there will be. Insanity is hereditary - you can get it from your children. If you aren't confused, you're badly informed. If there's a harder way of doing something, someone will find it. The Titanic was built by professionals, the Ark by amateurs. If you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply; they're going to stop making it. -30 (FACTIVA) Richard Needham - The witty MP who was too relaxed. By Tim Rayment 777 words 11 November 1990 The Sunday Times English (c) 1990 Times Newspapers Ltd Not Available for Re-dissemination. If any minister were to term his leader a cow as he spoke on an insecure telephone, it was likely to be Richard Needham. He is one of Westminster's most popular and relaxed MPs, a "wet" whose frivolity probably delayed his appointment to the government. Two words are always attached to him. "Modest" because he is a peer who chooses not to use his Irish title, the sixth Earl of Kilmorey. "Knickers" because that is his nickname, from a period spent working on an underwear counter in Marks and Spencer. He was given the job of under-secretary at the Northern Ireland Office in 1985, and has never moved. His contemporaries, such as Chris Patten, John Patten and William Waldegrave, found their positions faster, but an easy-going exterior is thought to have held Needham back. If you speak to his colleagues, their first remarks are of wit. He makes people laugh. In Northern Ireland he is the government minister who is genuinely funny when he visits. At Westminster he is funny in debate. His words seconding the Queen's Speech in 1984, which he used to urge more help for the young unemployed "the Ark was built by amateurs, but professionals built the Titanic" are still remembered. So is his book Honourable Member, a source work for parliamentary gossips. -------------------------------------------------------------- SPOILER (continued; no follow-up?) Magazine Desk; SECT6 THE WAY WE LIVE NOW: 6-6-04: ON LANGUAGE Spoiler By William Safire 1,000 words 6 June 2004 The New York Times Late Edition - Final 27 English (c) 2004 New York Times Company (...) Political etymologists need help. Earliest use I can find -- though not quite in the sought-after sense of ''vote splitter'' -- is by The Times's Anthony Lewis in 1959, who recounted a legislative maneuver of Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson to outfox Democratic liberals: ''The Senator from Texas obviously enjoyed the role of spoiler hugely.'' Before that, who? Theodore Roosevelt? As an independent, he outpolled his fellow Republican, President William Howard Taft, making possible the Democrat Woodrow Wilson's victory in 1912. Send citations (the real thing, not a vague recollection like mine) to onlanguage at nytimes.com and win lexicographical fame without fortune. ("Offer not valid for Barry Popik"--ed.) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jul 18 17:41:03 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: for all you zeugmaphiles out there... In-Reply-To: <20040717040209.56A8C228C0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: When he asked: 'What in heaven ... ?' she made no reply, Up her mind and a dash for the door. Flanders and Swann, Madeira M'Dear http://www.nyanko.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fas/hat_mader.html -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 18 23:43:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:43:51 EDT Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago Message-ID: BARRYPOPIK.COM Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is the site not true, it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one spot on Google. My site is already number two on YAHOO! for "Big Apple" + "nickname." However, on Google, it's about 300, even on a search of "Barry Popik" and "Big Apple." It's below such sites as "Class Brain." Incredible. The site has some stuff about NYC that I'd previously posted here. I want it up and in good position for August, when the Republicans and the Big Apple sculptures come to town. It would be nice if the site gets me money and/or dates, but this is my life we're talking about, so that's not possible. It would be nice if William Safire mentions the site, or Gothamist mentions it, or the New Yorker, or New York, but that's probably not possible, either. The 1924 Big Apple column head (with the Woolworth building on the apple) is still not on the site, and I don't even know how to do that...It would be nice if I had a free day or two to get some sleep and work on it, and didn't have to do parking tickets every waking hour. If you like the site, thank Grant Barrett for his help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MALTED MILK & CHICAGO I've discussed the milkshake. The malted, Walgreens, Chicago, 1922. Hm. (NEW YORK PRESS) http://www.nypress.com/17/28/food/MatthewFisher.cfm EATS & DRINKS The Milkshake By Matthew Fisher THE MILKSHAKE (...) Though frozen desserts date back hundreds of years?flavored shaved ice and fruit drinks being among the oldest, with varieties of ice cream-like concoctions not far behind?the first person to commercially prepare and distribute ice cream in America is said to have been a Baltimore man named Jacob Fussell, in 1851. He was a milk dealer that originally sold milk and ice cream out of a wagon, then eventually more ice cream, and is credited as the first American to create an ice cream factory. That said, Augustus Jackson, a Philadelphian and former White House chef, is said to have moved back to Philly in the 1830s and begun mixing up a variety of ice cream flavors that he delivered packed in tin cans to parlors in the area. Others claim that the first ice cream parlor is said to have opened in New York in 1776. (Coincidentally, some credit a Philadelphia soda water concessionaire named Robert M. Green with inventing the ice cream soda. One day, so the story goes, he ran out of cream for one of his carbonated water beverages and added ice cream instead. His sales took off.) The ice cream cone became famous a bit later. Though its origins are murky, most agree that the cone came to prominence at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, MO. Several waffle makers were at the fair and claim credit, but the International Association of Ice Cream Manufacturers (whoever they are) credit Ernest Hamwi as the one who gets the goods. The story goes that he was cooking up a thin waffle material at a booth next to an ice cream stand, and when his neighbors ran out of dishes, they started curling Hamwi's waffles. On the other hand, in 1903 an Italian immigrant named Italo Marchiony, living in New York, applied for a patent for a "molding apparatus for forming ice cream cups and the like." Marchioni sold ice cream from a cart and is said to have switched to using the waffle-like cups to keep overhead down, which resulted in a boom in his business and a fleet of carts. The milkshake, or at least the malted milkshake, is credited to the old Walgreens chain, where a man named Ivar "Pop" Coulson invented the beverage in 1922 . Up until then the drinks were made with milk, malt powder and chocolate syrup, but one day to make an extra-cool drink, Pop added some ice cream. This was a major revolution, and the Walgreens chains really took off. COULSON'S ORIGINAL OLD-FASHIONED CHOCOLATE MALTED MILK Use a frosted malt can 1 1/2 oz. chocolate syrup 3 - #16 dips of vanilla ice cream 5 1/2 oz. of cold milk Add malt powder (one heaping tablespoonful) Place on mixer only until mixed?do not over-mix Use a generous portion of whipped topping in a #1808 - 10 oz. glass Pour malted milk in glass approximately 2/3 full Serve remainder of malted in a shaker along with the glass to the guest with straws and package of fountain treat cookies Priced at 20 cents, Coulson's new malted came with a glassine bag containing two complimentary vanilla cookies from the company bakery (source: Walgreen's website). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (Not written by Martha Stewart--ed.) PRICES OF LOOP "MALTED MILKS" VARY--BUT WHY?; Fountaineers Can't Agree on Costliest Item. MARTHA. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 2, 1921. p. 13 (1 page) _"Martha, Martha, thou hast troubled thyself about many things."_ (...) I received a similar check at Wood's, 198 South Michigan avenue. E. F. Wood, proprietor, explained the price. "We make our own chocolate syrup," he said. "It''s the purest. Then there's ice cream, anbd half cream and half milk, instead of water. A bot of malted milk, the most expensive. Our drinks are shaken by hand instead of by electrical machine. That takes more time. "If people didn't think our malted milks were worth 25 cents, they would not buy them, would they? _Ah! 5 Cents Cheaper._ At the combination lunch counter-soda fountain in Tibbetts & Garland's. There the malted milk sold for 20 cents, with two pennies more for war tax. "The malted milk is the big item in the cost," said R. Gosney, head of the fountain. "We shoot in a big dipper of ice cream, as well as whipped cream on top." (...) "we lowered our prices two months before Mr. Poole started his campaign," he said. "We make our money on the amount we sell. There's only about 2 cents profit on each one, but it's a good advertisement. The ice cream is the biggest coast in this drink." (...) But at Buck & Bayner's, at Madison and State streets, W. A Krafft, general manager, gave me the whole history of the malted milk. His cost the customer 13 cents, and 20 for one with an egg. _6 Per Cent Net Profit._ Here's the itemized cost: Ice cream........................$0.014 Milk.................................. .018 Sirup................................. .014 Topping.............................. .005 Malted milk........................ .022 15 per cent shrinkage........... .005 ----------------------------------------------- Total cost.........................$0.078 (...) (So Walgreens didn't invented the malted in 1922...Walgreens? They have historical scholars over there? Why do newspaper reporters trust food industry partisan hacks for information? Might as well just ask the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council for the origin of the word "hot dog"--ed.) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 00:23:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:23:54 -0400 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 "... preventative services ..." Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. -Wilson Gray From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 19 01:24:51 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:24:51 -0600 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: Wow, Barry, what a great idea. Probably the best way to deal with this particular kind of problem of wilful ignorance. I'll check out the site later this evening to help bring you up above 'class brain'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:44 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And > then tell two > friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. > > I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is > the site not true, > it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one > spot on Google. > > My site is already number two on YAHOO! for "Big Apple" + > "nickname." > However, on Google, it's about 300, even on a search of > "Barry Popik" and "Big > Apple." It's below such sites as "Class Brain." Incredible. > > The site has some stuff about NYC that I'd previously > posted here. I want it > up and in good position for August, when the Republicans > and the Big Apple > sculptures come to town. > > It would be nice if the site gets me money and/or dates, > but this is my life > we're talking about, so that's not possible. It would be > nice if William > Safire mentions the site, or Gothamist mentions it, or the > New Yorker, or New York, > but that's probably not possible, either. > > The 1924 Big Apple column head (with the Woolworth building > on the apple) is > still not on the site, and I don't even know how to do > that...It would be nice > if I had a free day or two to get some sleep and work on > it, and didn't have > to do parking tickets every waking hour. > > If you like the site, thank Grant Barrett for his help. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 19 02:15:39 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:15:39 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two > friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. > > I mean to knock out the Big Apple Whore Hoax. Not only is the site not true, > it's not even creative. It can't be allowed the number one spot on Google. This site is well worth looking at. Its contents go far beyond "Big Apple," and make for fascinating reading. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Jul 19 04:15:09 2004 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:15:09 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: Long overdue, and I will shout it from my small rooftop. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 7:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago BARRYPOPIK.COM Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 19 05:55:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:55:03 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > "... preventative services ..." > Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but there it is). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 19 06:23:04 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:23:04 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2D761E12-D948-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>"... preventative services ..." >>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > >ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". > >also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >there it is). Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 19 06:34:14 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:34:14 -0400 Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago In-Reply-To: <1a5.25cb6823.2e2c6537@aol.com> Message-ID: >Go to www.barrypopik.com. Link it. Tell two friends. And then tell two >friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. OK, I went a couple of times. Hmm ... two friends? If someone assumes the existence of two friends, his life can't be too bad. It seems that before "Big Apple" meant "New York City" it meant "the New York area racing circuit" or so: it wasn't "in the Big Apple", it was "on the Big Apple". So why was the term "Big Apple" applied to the New York racetracks? Is "apple" just used for "thing", as in "the whole apple" = "the whole thing"? Does anybody know? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 07:26:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:26:46 EDT Subject: barrypopik.com; Matled Milk & Chicago Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:35:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: > So why was the term "Big Apple" applied to the New York racetracks? Is > "apple" just used for "thing", as in "the whole apple" = "the whole thing"? > Does anybody know? > > -- Doug Wilson Big--as in Big Time, Big City. Apple--a favorite of horses and historically used as a reward or big prize. I have much more (including cartoons of apples), some of which I'll add later. RECENTLY ADDED: Fitz Gerald obituary, Gang Green, Statue of Liberty Play. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 12:03:28 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:03:28 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Don't you mean "An ounce of preventation is worth a pound of curation" dInIs >Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > >"... preventative services ..." > >Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 19 13:00:14 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Don't you mean >"An ounce of preventation is worth a pound of curation" > >dInIs ~~~~~~~~~ As practiced by curates? A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jul 19 14:32:15 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:15 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <20040719040437.B432B228A2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >"... preventative services ..." > >Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. Or a kilogram of curation. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 19 16:03:37 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:03:37 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2D761E12-D948-11D8-AF3E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). Peter Mc. --On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >> "... preventative services ..." >> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > > ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for > "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn > common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", > in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ > for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in > spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years > and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is > more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". > > also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but > there it is). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 16:16:41 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:16:41 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090227817@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Is "hickish" a technical term? Maybe just to be more PC you should say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even "trailer-trashy" to you. dInIs (a hick) >I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to use >them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our U.K. >list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a preference on >their side of the pond for either one or the other, perhaps paralleling the >British preference for "orientated," which sounds hickish to educated >American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). > >Peter Mc. > > >--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" > wrote: > >>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>"... preventative services ..." >>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >> >>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >> >>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>there it is). >> >>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 17:47:13 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:47:13 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407182323.1bMryLAL3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 19, 2004, at 2:23 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "preventative" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>> "... preventative services ..." >>> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >> >> ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >> "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >> common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >> in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >> for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >> spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >> and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >> more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >> >> also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >> there it is). I had no idea that "preventation" was used so much that it has actually appeared in print. In fact, until I read the post above, I truly thought that _I_ had coined the term for the purpose of a cheap laugh in my own post. As they say in similar situations on South Park, "God damn it!" But, as you say, "there it is." -Wilson Gray > > Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". > > -- Doug Wilson > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jul 19 18:47:31 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:47:31 -0500 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:23 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "preventative" > > > Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". > > -- Doug Wilson > What about "commentator" vs. "commenter"? From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 19:20:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:20:54 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: By the early 'Sixties, I had long been familiar with the terms "clit(ty) and "the little man in the boat." However, I knew them only as literary, therefore "white" terms and I wanted find out whether there was a term for "clitoris" in BE. So, one day in 1963, I asked a female friend whether she knew a slang term for the clitoris. She answered, "Yes: 'pearltongue.' (the spelling used here reflects my mental picture of the word, since it didn't occur to me to ask her to spell it out)." The next day, at work, I asked one of my male colleagues the same question. He answered, "Yes: 'purrtongue' (same caveat re spelling as above)." I found this quite interesting, since "clitoris" and some form of "tongue" fall together in other languages. Cf., e.g. German "schamzuengelchen," literally, "little shame-tongue" and Sardo-Nugorese "limbeddha," literally, "little tongue." Now, I simply needed to discover which of these forms - pearltongue or purrtongue - was the original one and to find out whether other people knew other words. But, for some reason, at this point, I totally lost interest in pursuing this of research. Today, just for the hell of it, I googled these words and got no hits. However, when I tried "pearl tongue" and "purr tongue," I got one hit each: "pearl tongue" from 2003 and "purr tongue" from 1998. The former is actually defined (cf. UrbanDictionary.com): "Very good at eating pussy. Makes a woman cum[sic] every time when they eat the pussy. A tongue that exites[sic] the women." The latter occurs in the sentence, "... I gave her 'dah purr tongue' ...," spoken by a man. From this, I infer that "pearl tongue" and "purr tongue" not only continue to be synonyms, but also that they have both undergone the same semantic shift, in standard-English slang. Unfortunately, this breaks the direct link between clitoris and tongue (no pun intended). Hopefully, this direct link still exists in BE. Perhaps Clarence Majors can enlighten us. -Wilson Gray From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 19 19:34:10 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:34:10 +0100 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Peter McGraw wrote: > I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and > to use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of > our U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a > preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, > perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which > sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). My elderly British ears demand "preventative", but a perusal of the relevant article in the Third Edition of Fowler suggests that I am out of step with reality. A superficially similar pair that has caused me some problems is "interpretive" - "interpretative". I was a heritage interpreter at one time and this came up frequently, because the interpretation profession here has standardised on "interpretive", but we regularly received complaints that our syncopation was unwarranted. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 19 19:35:26 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:35:26 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407191149.1bMDcm2Wu3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: "Commenter" is new to me. However, it feels, so to speak, good to me, like "converse" and "conversate." That is, "commenter" seems not to have (yes, "to not have" also takes the meat, IMO) the same meaning as "commentater." "Preventative" annoys me because it seems to have exactly the same meaning as "preventive." Also, if some form from back in the day is going to be revived, why not "aft-" or "backhead" in place of "occiput"? -Wilson Gray On Jul 19, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "preventative" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] >> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:23 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: "preventative" >> >> >> Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > What about "commentator" vs. "commenter"? > From Vocabula at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 20:54:25 2004 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:54:25 EDT Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang Message-ID: It was announced some months ago that volume III of the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang was to be published by Oxford University Press, and that the project would be finished by Oxford. Does anyone know the new timetable for publication, and why Random House abandoned this project? Has Oxford adopted Random House's original goals, expanded them, or diminished them ? Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review _www.vocabula.com_ (http://www.vocabula.com/) From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 19 21:28:27 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:28:27 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <200407190024.i6J0O11n019407@mxe5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Thank you so much for bringing up this word, which I detest. Is it made up, or am I just fussy? Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "preventative" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 > > "... preventative services ..." > > Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. > > -Wilson Gray > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 19 22:07:10 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:07:10 -0700 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Is "hickish" a technical term? Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with "orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. Peter Mc. Maybe just to be more PC you should > say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even > "trailer-trashy" to you. > > dInIs (a hick) > >> I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >> use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >> U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >> preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >> perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >> sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> >> --On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> wrote: >> >>> On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>> Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>> "... preventative services ..." >>>> Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>> >>> ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>> "preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>> common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>> in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>> for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>> spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>> and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>> more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>> >>> also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>> there it is). >>> >>> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 19 22:07:08 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:07:08 -0400 Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang In-Reply-To: <8a.fef1305.2e2d8f01@aol.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower can elaborate, but as I understand it, Random House abandoned HDAS for budgetary reasons. If you need information for publication, questions about Oxford University Press goals are probably best answered over the telephone. Otherwise, in general, content-wise and coverage-wise, we have maintained the original Random House goals. One area where we are expanding is in promoting the project, which Random House did poorly in some areas and not at all in others. Volume III, P through part of S, is scheduled for publication in the second half of 2006. Volume IV, the rest of S through Z and a huge biblography, is scheduled for 2008. -- Grant Barrett Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Oxford University Press 198 Madison Avenue New York, NY 10016 grant.barrett at oup.com 212 726 6142 > It was announced some months ago that volume III of the Random House > Historical Dictionary of American Slang was to be published by Oxford > University > Press, and that the project would be finished by Oxford. Does anyone > know the > new timetable for publication, and why Random House abandoned this > project? Has > Oxford adopted Random House's original goals, expanded them, or > diminished > them ? From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 22:44:13 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:44:13 EDT Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Ever heard either of these? From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Jul 19 23:00:39 2004 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:00:39 EDT Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Dang it! I can't believe that for a second time this week I've attempted to forward something from ADS to a friend and had it turn up on the listserv instead. I'm sorry, people. I think there's a glitch in AOL. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Truly sorry. Lindsie Tucker From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jul 19 23:09:03 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:09:03 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090249630@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: Lighten up. >--On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Is "hickish" a technical term? > >Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as >close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) >stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in >Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, >at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. > >I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" >button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the >use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of >Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these >responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence >wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with >"orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. > >Peter Mc. > >Maybe just to be more PC you should >>say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even >>"trailer-trashy" to you. >> >>dInIs (a hick) >> >>>I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >>>use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >>>U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >>>preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >>>perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >>>sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>> >>>--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> >>>>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>>>"... preventative services ..." >>>>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>>> >>>>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>>>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>>>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>>>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>>>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>>>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>>>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>>>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>>> >>>>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>>>there it is). >>>> >>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Jul 20 02:02:44 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:02:44 -0400 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 "... preventative services ..." Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. -Wilson Gray ========================================================================= Hardly a hapax legomenon. See the list below from Bartleby's. The Army Commendation Medal (for service) was awarded for little more than keeping your nose clean and going along with the program--if a Good Conduct Medal is a D, the ARCOM is a gentleman's C. I knew a guy whose job was processing recommendations to ARCOMs who consistently referred to the Army "Accommodation" Medal. I thought at first he was being sarcastic and subversive, but it turned out he just didn't know "commendation" is a word. Se?n Fitzpatrick It's a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ 1) preventative. Roget s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995. ...Defending against disease: preventive, prophylactic, protective. See ALLOW. 2. Intended to prevent: deterrent, preclusive, preventive. See ALLOW.... 2) preventative. The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. ...ADJECTIVE & Variant of preventive.... 1) preventative, preventive. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993 ...two are synonyms, and each is Standard as both adjective and noun: She practices preventive [preventative] medicine-if you can call eating an apple a day a preventative... 2) Formations. Fowler, H. W. 1908. The King's English ...Innumerable other needless lengthenings might be produced, from which we choose only preventative for preventive, and to experimentalize for to experiment. On the... From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Jul 20 02:12:14 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:12:14 -0500 Subject: "preventative" Message-ID: Some years ago I had a consultation from a cardiovascular pathologist about an enlarged heart in which he used the term "dilatated" in about a half dozen places. He was annoyed when I used a red pen and crossed out all his extra "AT"s and sent it back to me wanting changes. When I went through again and made all the words read "dilatatated" he was REALLY mad because he finally figured out I was making fun of him. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Similarly (I guess): "dilatation" vs. "dilation". From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jul 20 11:54:43 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:54:43 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: With all the discussion lately about syntactic blends, i suppose it was only a matter of time before i caught myself in one. So, in the interest of adding to people's collections, here it is: This morning, Jeanne (my wife) and i were discussing how urgent our laundry situation was. In saying that, at least for my clothes, it wasn't at an *absolutely* critical point, i said: I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. As i said it, i realized that i'd been trying to say both "...one day's worth of clean..." and "...one day's clean...", but i managed to say neither. The interesting thing about this is that if i'd said "I've got more than two days' of clean clothes" (also true, FWIW), i'd've been making the same blend error, but it would have been completely transparent to the hearer. Of course, as it was, Jeanne didn't blink an eye at it, making me wonder if she even perceived it as a speech error (i didn't think to ask)--or maybe she's just used to hearing me use weird syntax, since i am after all a linguist. But it made me wonder if "of" has some sort of weird property in these, since lots of the blands that have been reported here seem to be built around that word. Could it be that these aren't errors as much as some sort of syntactic change, heralded by the commonly reported writing error "I would of done that", reanalyzed from "I would've done that"? Maybe some of these--note: I'm not claiming *all* of these--aren't actually errors at all. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 13:25:00 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: There was a little girl And she had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good, she was very, very good. But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Jul 20 14:21:37 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:21:37 -0400 Subject: "preventative" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090249630@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: OK, a reply: I don't think any of the "-ated" forms are regional, or necessarily rural, and I've never thought of them as "hickish"--whatever that means. At 03:07 PM 7/19/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--On Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Is "hickish" a technical term? > >Not to my knowledge. The reason I used it is that it seemed to come as >close as any word I could find to conveying the (yes, mildly negative) >stereotyping that for me is associated with the use of "orientated" in >Am.E. This stereotyping is nowhere near as sharp or specific (to my ear, >at least) as the connotations conveyed by the alternatives you mention. > >I considered the "hickish" sentence carefully before hitting the "send" >button, because I thought it might prompt responses hotly denying that the >use of "orientated" was associated with uneducated rural speakers of >Am.E.--and I wondered if there would be any regional pattern to these >responses. So far there have been no such responses. Maybe the sentence >wasn't a good trigger, or maybe everybody shares my associations with >"orientated"--or maybe lots of people are on vacation at the moment. > >Peter Mc. > >Maybe just to be more PC you should >>say it sounds "red-neckish" or "shit-kickerish" or even >>"trailer-trashy" to you. >> >>dInIs (a hick) >> >>>I seem to hear both "preventive" and "preventative" all the time and to >>>use them indiscriminately myself. Nonetheless, I wonder if any of our >>>U.K. list members would care to weigh in on whether there is a >>>preference on their side of the pond for either one or the other, >>>perhaps paralleling the British preference for "orientated," which >>>sounds hickish to educated American ears (as opposed to "oriented"). >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>> >>>--On Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:55 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> >>>>>Boston Sunday Globe, July 19, 2004, p.E11 >>>>>"... preventative services ..." >>>>>Well, an ounce of preventation is worth a pound of cure. >>>> >>>>ca. 988,000 google web hits. (compared to ca. 3,140,000 for >>>>"preventive".) it might not be your idea of standard, but it's damn >>>>common. AHD4 lists "preventative" as an alternative to "preventive", >>>>in fact. MWDEU tells us that "The critics have panned _preventative_ >>>>for over a century, preferring its shorter synonym _preventive_ in >>>>spite of the fact that both words have been around for over 300 years >>>>and both have been in regular use by reputable writers." there is >>>>more, including the analogy to "authoritative" and "talkative". >>>> >>>>also: ca. 3,610 hits for "preventation" (which i don't much like, but >>>>there it is). >>>> >>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 20 15:02:32 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:02:32 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <33CDE924-DA50-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >There was a little girl >And she had a little curl >Right in the middle of her forehead. >When she was good, she was very, very good. >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ Horrid. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 20 15:42:22 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:42:22 -0600 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It rhymes in British English. Brits would say something like 'fore at d' (@ = schwa) for 'forehead'. Victoria > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of sagehen > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > > >There was a little girl > >And she had a little curl > >Right in the middle of her forehead. > >When she was good, she was very, very good. > >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > > >-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ > Horrid. > AM > Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jul 20 15:43:01 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:43:01 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 at 9:25 AM -0500 wrote: >she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? Must be horrid for the stress. Aren't all of the bogus ones spoken with major stress on the first syllable (secondary stress on the second syllable) and with a different juncture between syllables? After all, forehead in British English where the rhyme comes to us from, is FOREhead (with tertiary stress on the final syllable). Flames to me, not the list. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jul 20 14:52:25 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:52:25 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <33CDE924-DA50-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >There was a little girl >And she had a little curl >Right in the middle of her forehead. >When she was good, she was very, very good. >But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >-Wilson Gray Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). Barbara Need From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 15:57:26 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:57:26 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say "forrid". You don't have to be British. Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A nursery rhyme ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There was a little girl And she had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good, she was very, very good. But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jul 20 16:50:08 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:50:08 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) In-Reply-To: <05e401c46e50$a2d2f5b0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: This does not strike me as a parallel difficulty at all: I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. is like I've got more than two days' of clean clothes but very different from I've got more than two days of clean clothes which is like I've got more than one day of clean clothes. And neither of these latter two strike me as odd (We had more than one day/two days of good weather). dInIs >With all the discussion lately about syntactic blends, i suppose it was only >a matter of time before i caught myself in one. So, in the interest of >adding to people's collections, here it is: > >This morning, Jeanne (my wife) and i were discussing how urgent our laundry >situation was. In saying that, at least for my clothes, it wasn't at an >*absolutely* critical point, i said: > > I've got more than one day's of clean clothes. > >As i said it, i realized that i'd been trying to say both "...one day's >worth of clean..." and "...one day's clean...", but i managed to say >neither. > >The interesting thing about this is that if i'd said "I've got more than two >days' of clean clothes" (also true, FWIW), i'd've been making the same blend >error, but it would have been completely transparent to the hearer. > >Of course, as it was, Jeanne didn't blink an eye at it, making me wonder if >she even perceived it as a speech error (i didn't think to ask)--or maybe >she's just used to hearing me use weird syntax, since i am after all a >linguist. > >But it made me wonder if "of" has some sort of weird property in these, >since lots of the blands that have been reported here seem to be built >around that word. Could it be that these aren't errors as much as some sort >of syntactic change, heralded by the commonly reported writing error "I >would of done that", reanalyzed from "I would've done that"? Maybe some of >these--note: I'm not claiming *all* of these--aren't actually errors at all. > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 18:30:38 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:30:38 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720155727.85447.qmail@web61302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No way to make this rhyme work for me :( --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > "forrid". > > You don't have to be British. > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A nursery rhyme > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There was a little girl > And she had a little curl > Right in the middle of her forehead. > When she was good, she was very, very good. > But when she was bad, she was > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 18:34:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:34:59 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407200759.1bMW572Hy3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:02 AM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> There was a little girl >> And she had a little curl >> Right in the middle of her forehead. >> When she was good, she was very, very good. >> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >> -Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ > Horrid. > AM > Works for me, but not for our all-too-numerous language compatriots who say "fore head" and not "forrid"? To my despair, I've found that some of these speakers don't even realize that there was ever even supposed to be a rhyme. I've found the same reaction among Canadians who've learned the Alphabet Song and sing "w, x, y, and zed": just a vague feeling that something may be wrong, though they "know" that their usage is "correct," just as I "know" that their usage is "incorrect." Well, I give Canadians the benefit of the doubt. But, what can you do? One of my best friends - only a decade-and-a-half younger than I - refuses to believe that "CaribBEan" was ever the standard American-English pronunciation of "CaRIbbean." It's just too bad for me that English didn't cease to evolve after May 1, 1954, when I completed what was essentially a twelve-year course in "Standard" English as a Second Dialect. Hmm. It's just occurred to me that my position is quite hypocritical, given that I myself have never been persuaded that there's any need to distinguish E from I in the environment before a nasal consonant. Context is sufficient to distinguish, e.g. "10 cans" from "tin cans." As Anna Rosannadanna used to say, "Never mind." -Wilson Gray From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jul 20 18:52:27 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:52:27 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$3v0h8@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: > > >> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? You could spell it horid or whored, with two syllables, as in "Banished, banished, Romeo is banished." ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jul 20 19:50:12 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:50:12 EDT Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: Though most people in the US today say "FOR hed" DARE tells us that this is a spelling pronunciation that has pirated the traditional pronunciation without the /h/. The vowel can be either /a/ (found on the E.Coast) or whatever vowel you use in 'for' -- and of course the same goes for 'horrid'. Most Americans have the vowel of 'for' (open o or /o/) but on the E. Coast it's often /a/. Loss of /h/ was not unusual after a stressed syllable--vehicle, annihilate. Dale Coye The College of NJ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 20:07:53 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:07:53 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201130.1bMZnX2ld3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 2:30 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No > way to make this rhyme work for me :( > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: I use open o in both cases. Forgetting how old I am, I assumed that everybody still learns this rhyme before learning to read. Therefore, what I was trying to get at was what would motivate a person to switch to the spelling pronunciation after learning to read, given that the reader already knows the "correct" pronunciation and that the spelling pronunciation destroys both the rhyme and the rhythm of the nursery rhyme. There are many (Does anyone ever pronounce this as "may-nee," as is permitted by the spelling? Cf. "zany.") other extraordinary intricacies of English spelling that have had no effect on pronunciation. But, from some of the responses, it appears that this nursery rhyme is no longer - if ever it was - universally learned at one's (grand)mother's knee. I learned it with the "forrid-horrid" rhyme from my late grandmother, who was born in Longview, TX, in 1898 and who didn't use "fore-head" even in ordinary speech. I've long wondered why a victim of an early 20th-century "separate-but-equal" education in the piney backwoods of East Texas would know and use the "correct" pronunciation, whereas people with late 20th-century Ivy-League educations have just as consistently come to use the "incorrect" pronunciation. [On a re-run of "Frazier," Dad has just said, "It's going to be you and I." Frazier immediately "corrects" him: "Dad, 'It's going to be you and ME!'" "Et tu, Brute?!" I can only hope that Dad blew his line and Frazier covered for him.] -Wilson Gray >> I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say >> "forrid". >> >> You don't have to be British. >> >> >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A nursery rhyme >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> There was a little girl >> And she had a little curl >> Right in the middle of her forehead. >> When she was good, she was very, very good. >> But when she was bad, she was >> horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 20 20:12:39 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:12:39 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >>There was a little girl >>And she had a little curl >>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >> >>-Wilson Gray > >Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 20 20:37:39 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:37:39 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: > > >>There was a little girl > >>And she had a little curl > >>Right in the middle of her forehead. > >>When she was good, she was very, very good. > >>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > >> > >>-Wilson Gray > > > >Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something > >like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). > > No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) > >Bethany Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm reminded of Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, 'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." This is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You ought better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with the general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good as 'I dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. From jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:18:55 2004 From: jbarrett at TARLETON.EDU (Jeanelle Barrett) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:18:55 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720183038.48031.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My British mother (London, 1937 to 1963) says [far at d] and [har at d], and they rhymed just fine ( My family knows the rhyme well). I, on the other hand, had to consciously change my pronunciation of [far at d] to the more recognizable American English "forehead" when I went to school (Oklahoma). To this day I say [har at b@l] and not the "open o" that most people articulate in "horrible" in these parts. I had to stop reciting that rhyme or risk getting the mickey taken out of me. Cruel! At 11:30 AM 7/20/2004 -0700, you wrote: >But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No >way to make this rhyme work for me :( > >--- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > > "forrid". > > > > You don't have to be British. > > > > > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: A nursery rhyme > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > There was a little girl > > And she had a little curl > > Right in the middle of her forehead. > > When she was good, she was very, very good. > > But when she was bad, she was > > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ******************** Dr. Jeanelle Barrett Assistant Professor of English Coordinator, Graduate Program in English Department of English and Languages Tarleton State University P.O. Box T-0300 Stephenville, Texas 76402 Office: 254-968-9319 Fax: 254-968-1931 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 20 21:32:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:32:33 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme Message-ID: Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was ridiculed out of it. Massachusetts-born novelist John Dos Passos has a character in his WWI novel "Three Soldiers" (1921) talking about the "Oregon Forest," i.e. the Argonne. JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But don't you also say h[a]rrid for horrid? I do. No way to make this rhyme work for me :( --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I grew up in NYC saying "forrid" and I still say > "forrid". > > You don't have to be British. > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A nursery rhyme > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There was a little girl > And she had a little curl > Right in the middle of her forehead. > When she was good, she was very, very good. > But when she was bad, she was > horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:38:31 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:38:31 -0500 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040720162227.01d75228@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >> >>>>There was a little girl >>>>And she had a little curl >>>>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>> >>>>-Wilson Gray >>> >>>Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>>like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >> >> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >>w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >> >>Bethany Not normally in my speech (OH, MA, PA, WI, Chicago, SD, Chicago) >Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm reminded of >Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye >reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, >'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." This >is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You ought >better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with the >general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good as 'I >dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of >acceptability. He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, >in the context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, >they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. Actually, I'm not sure how I learned the poem (though I certainly learned it, being a little girl with a curl and a temper), but I do remember learning that _forehead_ and _horrid_ rhymed and it surprised me. Barbara From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 20 21:50:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:50:19 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <20040720213233.65352.qmail@web61306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Now that's a first for me! The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the native [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations cited above. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was > ridiculed out of it. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Tue Jul 20 21:56:18 2004 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:56:18 -0400 Subject: "Sunday bests"? Message-ID: I have a student from Tryon, N.C., who claims that he and his neighbors regularly say "wearing their Sunday bests" rather than "Sunday best." I'm also from N.C., though a different part, and I've never heard anyone anywhere say this. Does anyone know if this is an actual usage, or is the student merely making an excuse for his bad proofreading? Alan Baragona From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 20 22:22:44 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:22:44 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up Message-ID: Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on Iraqi intelligence." Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get things all fouled up"? Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. As to etymology, dunno." I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would anyone on ads-l have anything to add? Gerald Cohen From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 20 23:24:31 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to >hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", >i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this >expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on >Iraqi intelligence." I believe this is a humorous alteration or partial euphemism for "f*ck the dog". It has exactly the same two meanings, viz. (1) "goof off", (2) "goof up". See HDAS "fuck the dog", under "dog". There are other versions, e.g., "screw the mutt" and particularly the sophomoric "intercourse the canine". "Screw the pooch" has become popular in recent years, I think. I remember it being used in the "goof up" sense in the movie "True Lies" (Gov. Arnold's best IMHO). -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jul 20 23:35:45 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:35:45 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720191118.02f40b40@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under discussion; it seems semantically off. dInIs >> >>Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to >>hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", >>i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this >>expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on >>Iraqi intelligence." > >I believe this is a humorous alteration or partial euphemism for "f*ck the >dog". It has exactly the same two meanings, viz. (1) "goof off", (2) >"goof up". > >See HDAS "fuck the dog", under "dog". > >There are other versions, e.g., "screw the mutt" and particularly the >sophomoric "intercourse the canine". > >"Screw the pooch" has become popular in recent years, I think. I remember >it being used in the "goof up" sense in the movie "True Lies" (Gov. >Arnold's best IMHO). > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 20 23:39:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201312.1bN0YG5nR3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:12 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: > >>> There was a little girl >>> And she had a little curl >>> Right in the middle of her forehead. >>> When she was good, she was very, very good. >>> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >> >> Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >> like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). > > No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme > w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) > > Bethany Testify! -Wilson Gray From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Jul 21 00:01:37 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:37 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <200407202233.i6KMXd112474@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." The phrase appears repeatedly in the book _The Right Stuff_; it is put in the mouth of, among others, John Glenn. This would fit the attribution to 1950s test pilots. I don't know how reliable a source the book is as regards transcription of conversations, though. Jim Parish From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 21 00:38:17 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:38:17 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <19F35CB4-DAA6-11D8-B9A4-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Wilson Gray wrote: >Testify! > >-Wilson Gray Yes, brother! Join me! Beth'ny Kay From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 00:41:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407201345.1bN1um1bk3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:37 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >> >>>> There was a little girl >>>> And she had a little curl >>>> Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>> When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>> But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>> like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >> >> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >> w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >> >> Bethany > > Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm > reminded of > Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye > reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, > 'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." > This > is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You > ought > better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with > the > general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good > as 'I > dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. > He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the > context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, > they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. > I, of course, say "forrid." However, on the other hand, who on earth says, or even writes, "You ought better (to) do it," nowadays? And, FWIW, in BE, The past of "You/you'd/you had/ better do it" is "You better had done it." -Wilson Gray From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jul 21 01:03:41 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:03:41 -0700 Subject: believe them say Message-ID: the ever-alert laura staum came across the following today (while looking at complement-taking verbs): >> Consider the fact that your salesperson might work on commission >> before you believe them say, "Omigod, your butt looks great in >> those!" this looks like "believe them say" was intended to convey 'believe them when they say'. i almost failed to notice the oddity, though. no relevant google web hits on "believe them say" or "believe him say" or "believe me say". two possibles for "believe her say": The Fabulous Six Youth Movement ... then he couldn't believe her say: I think i'm ready to go all the way. that's when we started to smell trouble, cause our man was like in a glass bubble. ... wso.williams.edu/~ganthes/fab6/ carnal_anima's Xanga Site ... swimming at ryan's. yes. thug lovin': i wish that *just once*, i could ask a girl "ya feelin' me?" and be able to truly believe her say "f'sho". ... xanga.com/carnal_anima examples with non-pronominal objects are much harder to search for, alas. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 21 01:33:26 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:33:26 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: A question from over at the Straight Dope. I call on your help. We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the 1820's(and before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class that in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. I can't offer more than that. Is the poster correct about Spanish? If so, why the color difference? When did it occur? Sam Clements From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 21 01:35:32 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:35:32 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Odd=20expression:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?"screw=20the=20pooch"=20=3D=20get=20things=20all=20fouled?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20up?= Message-ID: We used "fuck the dog" = 'goof off, not do one's work when one should' in the English Department in grad school (Iowa City 1960s). In a message dated 7/20/04 7:35:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the > Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big > brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under > discussion; it seems semantically off. > > dInIs > From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 01:35:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: "Sunday bests"? Message-ID: >I have a student from Tryon, N.C., who claims that he and his neighbors >regularly say "wearing their Sunday bests" rather than "Sunday best." I'm >also from N.C., though a different part, and I've never heard anyone >anywhere say this. Does anyone know if this is an actual usage, or is the >student merely making an excuse for his bad proofreading? Google gives six examples of "my sunday bests", and they look genuine to me. It seems OK to me, although I don't know whether I've heard/read it before or not. The "-s" looks to me like the "-s" from (implied/elided) "clothes", as in "my sweats" = "my sweat clothes", "my grubbies" = "my grubby clothes" (these I have heard for sure) ... I'm not certain whether "my dress whites" is analogous (= "my dress white clothes") or not. -- Doug Wilson From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Jul 21 01:42:24 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: I see these as essentially identical in meaning: I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes or I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" I've got more than two days' of clean clothes but very different from I've got more than two days of clean clothes which is like I've got more than one day of clean clothes. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jul 21 02:10:09 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:10:09 -0500 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have just seen a Jif Peanut Butter commercial for the umpteenth time in which a little girl, having made a peanut butter sandwich to share with her friend on a sleep over, asks if her mother cuts it "down the middle or across". The answer is across and the sandwich is cut diagonally. For me, at best, these two directions would be perpendicular, that is vertically or horizontally (if you can picture this). Does anyone else have the diagonal interpretation? Barbara From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jul 21 02:12:50 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <000801c46ec2$b8bd6ff0$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >A question from over at the Straight Dope. I call on your help. > >We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the >1820's(and before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's >excellent write up at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm > >A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class >that in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. > >I can't offer more than that. Is the poster correct about Spanish? >If so, why the color difference? When did it occur? > >Sam Clements It is certainly green in Spanish, though I don't know why or when. Barbara From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 02:25:35 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:25:35 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <000801c46ec2$b8bd6ff0$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the 1820's(and >before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up at >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm > >A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class that >in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. > >.... Is the poster correct about Spanish? Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross ignorance of Spanish. I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. >If so, why the color difference? I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is somewhat comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers more-or-less to soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue movie[s]" in English. According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence "forward"/"shameless". Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable possibility which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add anything to Quinion's piece right now. Corrections are welcome as always. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 03:12:56 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:12:56 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <200407201925.1bN6NN5C23NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> We can all ascertain that "blue" was used in English since the >> 1820's(and >> before) to mean "obscene." See Michael Quinion's excellent write up >> at >> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blu2.htm >> >> A poster says that his Spanish teacher in High School told the class >> that >> in Spanish they use "green" to mean obscene. >> >> .... Is the poster correct about Spanish? > > Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross > ignorance of Spanish. > > I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy > dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. > >> If so, why the color difference? > > I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is > somewhat > comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers > more-or-less to > soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue > movie[s]" > in English. If memory serves, "blue movies" featured what we now call "hard-core" - sexual acts are portrayed in all their power and glory, not merely hinted at - pornography, not soft-core. To acquire such a flick, you had to know somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. At least, that was the case in Saint Louis, home of both a Catholic archbishopric and the most conservative branch of American Lutheranism, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. -Wilson Gray > > According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = > "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence > "forward"/"shameless". > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer > simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable > possibility > which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely > IMHO). > > The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add > anything to Quinion's piece right now. Given that there was once a popular song titled "Alice Blue Gown," a favorite of my grandmother, the wife of a presiding elder of the Methodist Church - written in 1919 and still available on 78's down into the early 'Forties - I doubt that there is any direct connection, in US English, at least, between the wearing of blue gowns by prostitutes and the use of "blue" as a synonym for "obscene." -Wilson Gray > > Corrections are welcome as always. > > -- Doug Wilson > From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Jul 21 03:28:51 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:28:51 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <38r1iv$33hemc@ironman.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: chistes verdes = dirty jokes viejo verde = dirty old man What other instances of "verde" or "green" have you seen in Spanish? Carolina P.S. Everyone I knew back in Texas would say fore-head. I thought forrid was a Brtishism, like hoggarts for Hogwarts. ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 21 04:21:47 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:21:47 -0600 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember it from Colombia in the mid 60s, but only in the phrase 'chistes verdes'; i.e. "green" jokes, which means simply dirty jokes. That is, not quite as serious as the connotation, to me, of 'obscene.' I don't recall anyone, Spanish or English speaker, offering a reason for the difference in color. I don't know if Spanish has the equivalent meaning of English 'color,' as in 'off-color joke.' Victoria On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:13 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > > It is certainly green in Spanish, though I don't know why or when. > > Barbara > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Jul 21 04:29:03 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:29:03 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: Doug, Just so I don't misunderstand--the Spanish dictionary cites the "obscene" (or some such) meaning from 1852? As usual, I value your input. SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >.... Is the poster correct about Spanish? > > Yes. As for the fine semantic distinctions, I can only plead gross > ignorance of Spanish. > > I find this sense of "verde" in the on-line Spanish Royal Academy > dictionary from 1852 on, but not in the 1843 edition. > > >If so, why the color difference? > > I don't know. Compare also "pinku" = "pink" in Japanese which is somewhat > comparable .... e.g., "pinku eiga" = "pink movie[s]" refers more-or-less to > soft-core pornography as I understand it ... something like "blue movie[s]" > in English. > > According to my naive and casual speculation, the Spanish "verde" = > "obscene" may arise from a sense like "youthful"/"vigorous", thence > "forward"/"shameless". > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" might refer > simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less mentionable possibility > which might seem superficially plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). > > The English "blue" is harder for me to explain offhand and I can't add > anything to Quinion's piece right now. > > Corrections are welcome as always. > > -- Doug Wilson > From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 21 05:27:00 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:27:00 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? In-Reply-To: <001501c46edb$41175d80$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: >the Spanish dictionary cites the "obscene" >(or some such) meaning from 1852? Yes. <> So here "verde" ("green") is the color of grass, and a bunch of other things including "Loose, immodest, obscene: applied to stories, writings, poems, etc.", and (separate sense) "One who maintains inclinations or habits inappropriate to his age or status; as, [green old man], [green widow]." [My own casual and dubious translation] Essentially the same items are in the 1992 edition. Here the "dirty/sprightly old man" and the "merry widow" do not fall under the "obscene" sense, but I believe there might be a transitional sense between "youthful" and "wanton"/"licentious" as I said above. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Jul 21 05:45:02 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:02 -0500 Subject: Another nursery rhyme Message-ID: How long is it since this rhymed in "correct" speech in either the US or the UK? Polly put the kettle on, Polly put the kettle on, Polly put the kettle on, They've all come to tea. Polly take the kettle off, Polly take the kettle off, Polly take the kettle off, They've all gone away. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 21 06:06:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:06:49 EDT Subject: Smoke-filled room (1915, 1920) Message-ID: MISC. www.barrypopik.com: More stuff on the website. "Brownie/Meter Maid," "bodega." www.wordspy.com: Where is Paul? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SMOKE-FILLED ROOM With the Republican National Convention coming to New York, I thought I'd take another look at "smoke-filled room." (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/10/12/2003071408 Candidates commence alliterative assault with resonant rhetoricBy William Safire NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , NEW YORK Sunday, Oct 12, 2003,Page 9 Nobody has yet approached the alliterative heights of President Warren G. Harding. Not only did he coin the phrase founding fathers -- since edited to founders to escape sexism -- but the only newspaper publisher to reach the White House also set the high standard to which subsequent generations of alliterators have aspired to attain. Ohio's favorite son emerged from the famed "smoke-filled room" to rally the nation to "not heroics but healing; not nostrums but normalcy; not revolution but restoration; not agitation but adjustment; not surgery but serenity; not the dramatic but the dispassionate; not experiment but equipoise." (WWW.BARTLEBY.COM) The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002. smoke-filled room A popular expression used to describe a place where the political wheeling and dealing of machine bosses (see machine politics) is conducted. The image originated during the Republican presidential nominating convention of 1920, in which Warren G. Harding emerged as a dark horse candidate. 1 (OED) 1920 Evening Star (Washington) 14 June 1/2 Harry Daugherty..predicted that about 2.11 a.m., ?in a *smoke~filled room?, on a certain night during the republican national convention, the next nominee would be chosen. 1965 G. MCINNES Road to Gundagai v. 77 These damp and smokefilled holes. 1979 Now! 21-27 Sept. 74/3 Presidential candidates are not selected by political pros in smoke-filled rooms these days. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 14 February 1915, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 6: Candidates have not been required to talk in smoke filled rooms, and they have not been disturbed by the boisterous conduct of men and boys in the approaches to the halls. 11 June 1920, New York Times, pg. 2: The home (illegible--ed.) roared approval of the work that had been done by a few men in a smoke-filled room. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("smoke-filled room" and "nominate") Lima News Tuesday, June 15, 1920 Lima, Ohio ...he predicted that about a. a SMOKE-FILLED ROOM" on a certain night, during.....It was the plan of the Old Guard to NOMINATE Lowden but the Missouri expose.. From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 11:08:47 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:08:47 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) In-Reply-To: <086601c46ec3$fbc53520$585f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: >Sorry; I thought you were talking about the morpho-syntax; I agree >that they are (roughly) semantically-pragmatically the same. dInIs >I see these as essentially identical in meaning: >I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes >or >I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >I've got more than two days' of clean clothes > >but very different from > >I've got more than two days of clean clothes > >which is like > >I've got more than one day of clean clothes. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 11:20:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:20:44 -0400 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, yeah. English Departments. I forgot. dInIs >We used "fuck the dog" = 'goof off, not do one's work when one should' in the >English Department in grad school (Iowa City 1960s). > >In a message dated 7/20/04 7:35:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> I do not know "fuck the dog" meaning to fuck up or off, but in the >> Louisville (KY) area in the 50's we had exclamatory "fuck a (big >> brown) dog." It may, however, be unrelated to the item under >> discussion; it seems semantically off. >> >> dInIs >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jul 21 11:21:45 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:21:45 -0400 Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: From: Dave Hause : From: "Dennis R. Preston" :: I've got more than two days' of clean clothes :: but very different from :: I've got more than two days of clean clothes :: which is like :: I've got more than one day of clean clothes. : I see these as essentially identical in meaning: : I've got more than two days' [worth] of clean clothes : or : I've got more than two days of [being able to wear] clean clothes I'll agree with Dennis that there's a difference (though slight) on this one, as far as my intuitions go, but i'd also note that there's no way for a listener to be able to tell the difference between them. I *do* think, though, that there's a difference between (1) I've got more than one day's of clean clothes and either of (2) I've got more than two days' of clean clothes (3) I've got more than two days of clean clothes Whereas--purely from personal intuitions here--(2) and (3) are both perfectly acceptable, (1) is at best questionable to me, and if i were marking sentences as grammatical or not for a theoretical syntactic study, i would probably give (1) a full asterisk. I have no idea why the difference in intuition exists. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 21 13:30:41 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:30:41 -0700 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090335019@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: I still say [ar at g@n] (SE Penna.) and I'm gonna keep saying it. Damn the natives. Ed --- "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > Now that's a first for me! > > The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail > from the state is > [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in > contrast to the native > [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the > variant you report > using, which sounds like a blend of the two > "furriner" pronunciations cited > above. > > Peter Mc. > > --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan > Lighter > wrote: > > > Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n > {Oregon) too till I was > > ridiculed out of it. > > > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College > McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu > ************************ > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 21 13:49:11 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:49:11 -0400 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: In the early 1990s, my daughters and a guest from Barcelona, Spain, visited HersheyPark, in (next door) Hershey, PA. When an announcement was made about the HersheyPark Green Team, the Barcelona visitor, a teenager, was perplexed, and asked for a clarification. She noted that, in Spain, green was often used to refer to things such as dirty old men. Since our visitor was familiar with Sesame Street, I later asked if she had ever heard Kermit the Frog singing "It's Not Easy Being Green". She said that she hadn't heard that particular song on Spanish TV. Some info on the HersheyPark Green Team at: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/polycomm/update/06-09-00/06090025.htm In an interview, it is noted that "Hersheypark is 'clean, green, family fun.'" In paragraph 6: [Also, note the usage of both 'Hershey Park' and 'Hersheypark'.] http://www.onridecentral.com/interviews/?interviewID=7 OT: I wrote to HersheyPark management, inquiring about the possibility of using multi-language signage in the park. I also noted that their gate guards inadvertently used the international traffic hand signal for 'move forward', when they were actually trying to get a van to back up. The Spanish speakers in the van kept edging forward, while the guards just shouted louder, and continued waving their hands back and forth. One translation of the response letter could be 'get lost'. George Cole Shippensburg University From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 14:12:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:12:06 -0400 Subject: Another nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407202245.1bN9UX3iO3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:45 AM, Dan Goodman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goodman > Subject: Another nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How long is it since this rhymed in "correct" speech in either the US > or > the UK? > > Polly put the kettle on, > Polly put the kettle on, > Polly put the kettle on, > They've all come to tea. > > Polly take the kettle off, > Polly take the kettle off, > Polly take the kettle off, > They've all gone away. > > -- > Dan Goodman > Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or > http://dsgood.blogspot.com > All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. > John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. Well, I guess the fact that "tea" once rhymed with "(a)way" explains why the Irish word for "tea" is "tae" (approx. "tay") and not "taoi" (approx. "tee"). -Wilson Gray > From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Wed Jul 21 14:39:45 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:39:45 -0500 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up In-Reply-To: <200407202233.i6KMXdLD022321@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: My favorite example of this saying comes from the film "Stand By Me", based on a short story by Stephen King. Teddy says, "Gordy screwed the pooch", I think. I'm not sure if the expression is in the book, too, but I seem to remember the events are supposed to be set in the late 50s or early 60s. I also think it's in the film The Right Stuff based on Tom Wolfe's book. Rachel Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." > > Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the > 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the > original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get > things all fouled up"? > > Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager > where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: > "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by > test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft > when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. > As to etymology, dunno." > > I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would > anyone on ads-l have anything to add? > > Gerald Cohen -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 21 15:56:54 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:56:54 -0700 Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up Message-ID: No evidence for "screw the pooch" has surfaced before "The Right Stuff." It is now rather commonplace. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Re: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My favorite example of this saying comes from the film "Stand By Me", based on a short story by Stephen King. Teddy says, "Gordy screwed the pooch", I think. I'm not sure if the expression is in the book, too, but I seem to remember the events are supposed to be set in the late 50s or early 60s. I also think it's in the film The Right Stuff based on Tom Wolfe's book. Rachel Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Odd expression: "screw the pooch" = get things all fouled up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yesterday I watched an episode of "Law on Order" and was surprised to > hear one of the detectives refer to someone who "screwed the pooch", > i.e., got something all fouled up. I had never come across this > expression before but find it on Google, e.g. "screwed the pooch on > Iraqi intelligence." > > Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ dates it from the > 1960's, with a few variants. There doesn't seem much doubt that the > original reference was to bestiality, but how did this extend to "get > things all fouled up"? > > Back to Google: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Kitty_20Pager > where someone named "angel" wrote on Aug. 15, 2002: > "A cursory trip through Goooooooogle reveals that it's slang used by > test pilots in the '50's. To screw the pooch is to be in an aircraft > when it crashes. More widely, it is to fail in a spectacular manner. > As to etymology, dunno." > > I'll check a glossary of airforce lingo in a few days. Would > anyone on ads-l have anything to add? > > Gerald Cohen -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 21 16:27:49 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:27:49 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:41 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:37 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 04:12 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Barbara Need wrote: >>> >>>>>There was a little girl >>>>>And she had a little curl >>>>>Right in the middle of her forehead. >>>>>When she was good, she was very, very good. >>>>>But when she was bad, she was horehead?/hoarhead?/whorehead? ...? >>>>> >>>>>-Wilson Gray >>>> >>>>Except that forehead "should" be (used to be) pronounced something >>>>like forid (and therefore rhymed with horrid). >>> >>> No - IS. I have always pronounced forehead to rhyme >>>w/horrid. (se TX, AR, MO, LA, London, TX, TN) >>> >>>Bethany >> >>Not me. I've always said fore-head (MN, MO, IN, OH). But I'm >>reminded of >>Bloomfield's article on "Literate and Illiterate Speech" (Dale Coye >>reminded me of it too), where he writes, on the last page, "Similarly, >>'forrid' is preferred to the logically more explicable 'fore-head'." >>This >>is in the context of "preferring" 'You had better do it' over 'You >>ought >>better (to) do it', "although the latter [ought better] accords with >>the >>general forms of our syntax." He also says "'I dove' is not so good >>as 'I >>dived', 'I ain't' not so good as 'I'm not'" in terms of acceptability. >> He's acknowledging the vagaries of "preference," of course, in the >>context of "good and bad" Menomini. But when my students read this, >>they're always puzzled by 'forrid'--who on earth says that, they ask. > >I, of course, say "forrid." However, on the other hand, who on earth >says, or even writes, "You ought better (to) do it," nowadays? And, >FWIW, in BE, The past of "You/you'd/you had/ better do it" is "You >better had done it." > >-Wilson Gray That's Bloomfield's point, of course: Who dictates what's "good" and "bad"? BTW, if people no longer know this article, it appeared in Vol. 2 of _American Speech_, in 1927 (no, I wasn't alive then). I have my Sociolinguistics class read it every year. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jul 21 16:20:16 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:20:16 -0500 Subject: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "blue"(English)=obscene. Why "green" in Spanish? > > Again from ignorance, I speculate that the Japanese "pinku" > might refer simply to skin, or to blushing skin maybe (a less > mentionable possibility which might seem superficially > plausible to some is actually unlikely IMHO). Does Japanese use their word for pink as a euphemism for vagina, as in "stinky pinky"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 21 17:30:17 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:30:17 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090335019@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >Now that's a first for me! I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). larry >The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the native >[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations cited >above. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>ridiculed out of it. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 21 19:33:20 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:33:20 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: <200407211030.1bNkV954C3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Now that's a first for me! > > I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the > first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of > it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. > (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively > rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme > (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected > "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before > all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a > forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed > to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to > [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). > > larry Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local "accent." -Wilson > >> The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >> [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >> native >> [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >> using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >> cited >> above. >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> >>> Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>> ridiculed out of it. >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 21 20:08:21 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:08:21 -0400 Subject: A nursery rhyme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Now that's a first for me! >> >>I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>(when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>(which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>"forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>[or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >> >>larry > >Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into >saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >together with "fart(y)"? No, I didn't know anyone who did this until I met someone from Utah who claimed to pronounce "fort" and "fart" the way the rest of pronounced "fart" and "fort" respectively. For me, the vowel in "forest" and that in "fort" were entirely distinct, the latter being open o. As for "FARRist", I guess there were no Omahans in Rochester, because all the non-NYC kids at the U. of R. viewed that vowel as a shibboleth of the NYC accent--in particular, in the context of the "CARRidors"...er, corridors we lived on. larry >I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha >specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >"accent." > >-Wilson > >> >>>The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>native >>>[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >>>using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >>>cited >>>above. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>ridiculed out of it. >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jul 21 21:53:19 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) Therefore, the representation of FARRist versus FOURist is not a good pair to illustrate homophony since the two are distinct. As usual, folk facts are not up to this level of sophistication, and even locals use fourty-four as a joke phrase (farty-far) which,in local performance, does not in fact happen. Luckily, Jill Goodheart at MSU (goodhear at msu.edu)has just finished an important study of St. Louis vowels (confirming, by the way, Labov's observation of the presence of the Northern Cities Shift there) so we have up-to-date acoustic information of these facts. dInIs >On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Now that's a first for me! >> >>I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>(when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>(which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>"forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>[or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >> >>larry > >Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone into >saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of Omaha >specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >"accent." > >-Wilson > >> >>>The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>[origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>native >>>[orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you report >>>using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" pronunciations >>>cited >>>above. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>ridiculed out of it. >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 02:42:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:42:44 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <200407211453.1bNp1H6oh3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: farty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with > farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in > St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which > keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the > hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) Therefore, the > representation of FARRist versus FOURist is not a good pair to > illustrate homophony since the two are distinct. As usual, folk facts > are not up to this level of sophistication, and even locals use > fourty-four as a joke phrase (farty-far) which,in local performance, > does not in fact happen. My pseudo-phonetic representations were clearly less than transparent (no pun intended). I agree entirely with your every observation wrt the Saint Louis dialect. There is no conflict between us. The puerile joke referred to has to do with precisely the fact that "forty-four" is pronounced very much as though spelled "farty-four," leaving open the possibility that "44" might be misconstrued as "farty four." Hence, a sharp-witted listener might say something like, "Only four were farty? Didn't the rest of them eat beans, too?" Such sparkling repartee was considered to be thigh-slappingly funny in the fourth grade. "'FARR-ist' v. 'FOUR-ist'" is not intended to illustrate homophony, but heterophony. The high-school teacher from Omaha was making the claim that the St. Louis dialect was non-standard, using as his exemplar the local pronunciation of "forest." Said local pronunciation sounded, to his ear, something like "FARR-ist," whereas the "correct" pronunciation was far better exemplified by the pronunciation used in his hometown, a noise that sounded to the ears of us St. Louisans like "FOUR-ist," i.e. "4-ist." Needless to say, only his authority as teacher kept us from laughing in his face. What in the world could "4-ist" possibly mean? It certainly couldn't mean "forest"! > Luckily, Jill Goodheart at MSU (goodhear at msu.edu)has just finished an > important study of St. Louis vowels (confirming, by the way, Labov's > observation of the presence of the Northern Cities Shift there) so we > have up-to-date acoustic information of these facts. By the time that I reached high school in 1950, I was already aware that there were then at least four subdialects spoken in St. Louis, two among blacks and two among whites. Blacks from one part of town sounded far less Southern than those from the other part of town. Most whites said "bad," "mad," etc., but some few said - unfortunately, IMO - "be-ad," "me-ad," etc. There were, no doubt, many other distinctions both between and among these subdialects, but these were the ones that I happened to find most salient at the age of 13. -Wilson Gray > > dInIs > >> On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: A nursery rhyme >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>>> Now that's a first for me! >>> >>> I also (NYC, born 1945) grew up saying [ar at gan], with primary on the >>> first and secondary on the last syllable. I too was ridiculed out of >>> it, along with my [a] vowel in "forest", "corridor", "moral", etc. >>> (when I was an undergraduate in Rochester, NY). And I also natively >>> rhymed "forehead" and "horrid" as C[ar at d] in that particular rhyme >>> (which my mother was quite fond of), but I later spelling-corrected >>> "forehead" to the compound stress version (as in "car-head"), before >>> all those [a]s mutated into open o's. So now I'm a >>> forehead-as-in-whorehead speaker, even though I know it's "supposed >>> to be" [for at d] as in "horrid" (with an open-o). And I've switched to >>> [or at g@n]--still can't get that [i] for the middle vowel ("Orygun"). >>> >>> larry >> >> Larry, the description of your former pronunciation of "forest," etc. >> sounds like a description of one of the features of St. Louis English. >> As a child, did you consider it hilarious if you could con someone >> into >> saying a number between 39 and 50, because "fort(y)" had fallen >> together with "fart(y)"? I remember a teacher who was a native of >> Omaha >> specifically using "forest" - our FARRist v. his FOURist - as his >> example in a fruitless attempt to demonstrate ("What? YOU're the one >> who talks funny!) that we St. Louisans spoke with a distinctive local >> "accent." >> >> -Wilson >> >>> >>>> The classic pronunciation of those who don't hail from the state is >>>> [origa:n], and I've also heard [ar at g@n] (both in contrast to the >>>> native >>>> [orig at n]). But this is the first I've heard of the variant you >>>> report >>>> using, which sounds like a blend of the two "furriner" >>>> pronunciations >>>> cited >>>> above. >>>> >>>> Peter Mc. >>>> >>>> --On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:32 PM -0700 Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly. And I used to say /a/ reg /a/ n {Oregon) too till I was >>>>> ridiculed out of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ***************************************************************** >>>> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 22 06:28:29 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:28:29 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be primary. I have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all guessed it. Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? -- Doug Wilson From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 13:44:56 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:44:56 EDT Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives Message-ID: Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in formal situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, why couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? Also, doesn't -ing tend to get used in emphatic utterances, especially maybe expletives (e.g, "Arnold are you shitting me or what?"?) I'm not sure what AZ intends to convey by "spontaneous" here, but if he means that Bono's word choice was a premeditated publicity stunt, I'd argue that the choice of -ing rather than -in is too thin a bit of evidence to count for much. In a message dated 6/25/04 12:07:33 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > > has anyone actually listened to this?? if bono said "fucking" rather > than "fuckin'", that would suggest that the expletive wasn't really > spontaneous. > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 14:57:29 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:57:29 -0400 Subject: forehead Message-ID: Back in the middle ages. ie. about 1950 or so a grade school teacher told me that I should never pronounce the h in forehead lest I be considered as illiterate as those who pronounced the word "chimney" chimley. This was in southern Illinois. Page Stephens From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 15:01:27 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:01:27 -0400 Subject: Green, yellow, etc. Message-ID: When I was in grade school in southern Illinois it was common knowledge that if you wore green on Thursday you were homosexual. Later on when I was in graduate school I learned that both the color and the day varied in different parts of the US. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 22 15:37:32 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:37:32 -0400 Subject: Green, yellow, etc. In-Reply-To: <01fe01c46ffc$c3f2af80$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >When I was in grade school in southern Illinois it was common >knowledge that if you wore green on Thursday you were homosexual. > Was Thursday, March 17 exempt? larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 16:01:18 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:01:18 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this interesting dissertation about the word cunt. http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:28 AM Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I > haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be primary. I > have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the > pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all guessed it. > > Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", > supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. > > Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's > "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. > > Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = > "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. > > Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? > > -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 22 16:25:00 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <024201c47005$20361860$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this >interesting dissertation about the word cunt. > >http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html > >Page Stephens > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to inspire confidence: "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the primordial cu- "sound".) Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 18:05:00 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:05:00 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <65.2eea06e0.2e311ed8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > formal > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > why > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with /N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this road.) it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present participles, other things being equal. but the other things include the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was uttering the adverbial expletive. so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said (but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 19:01:27 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:01:27 EDT Subject: down the middle or across Message-ID: Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 22 19:10:26 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:26 -0700 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" Message-ID: That "quintessential femineity" stuff is from Partridge's "Origins," and must not be taken seriously. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find this >interesting dissertation about the word cunt. > >http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html > >Page Stephens > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to inspire confidence: "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the primordial cu- "sound".) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 22 19:13:06 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:13:06 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives Message-ID: I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except statistically) here. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: -ing vs. -in' in expletives ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > formal > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > why > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with /N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this road.) it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present participles, other things being equal. but the other things include the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was uttering the adverbial expletive. so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said (but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 19:28:48 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:28:48 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <200407212329.1bNx4O3Oa3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 2:28 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Well, I surely never heard of "pearltongue" or "purrtongue"; I guess I > haven't been getting out enough. I presume "pearltongue" to be > primary. I > have heard "pearl diving" ( = "muff diving"), but I never knew what the > pearl was. Jonathon Green's dictionary says the pearl is ... y'all > guessed it. I agree with your presumption that pearltongue is primary. "Pearldiving," except in the literal sense and as an old slang term for washing dishes, is new to me. "Muffdiving," of course, is a relatively old friend. I never heard the term till 1960, when I was 23. > Google does provide a few instances of "pearltongue" = "clitoris", > supposedly a 'chiefly black' word. I've now found the Google cites. I can't understand how I missed them the first time around. Given that I learned the term as a consequence of asking whether there existed a specific BE term for "clitoris," I'm buying the "chiefly black" annotation. But it does bug my head that I *had* to ask, since the woman that I asked was my girl friend and the guy was my what used to be termed "main man." One would expect that one or the other would make use of pearl-/purrtongue in conversation. But they both normally used "clitoris." And it's also the case that I've never heard either "pearltongue" or "purrtongue" spoken ever again by anyone else of whatever race, color, creed, sex, nationality, or sexual orientation. > Note also French "languette" = "clitoris", which appears in Farmer's > "Vocabula Amatoria", etc. Interesting! > Also note the charming "budgie's tongue" in the same sense ("budgie" = > "budgerigar" = "parrakeet"). I don't recall ever hearing this myself. > > Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in the day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. In fact, the OED quotes a line from a novel by Calder Willingham (a hell of a writer; what ever happened to him?) in which "poon tang"[sic] is specifically referred to "Negro girl." -Wilson Gray > -- Doug Wilson > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 22 19:25:38 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:25:38 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <19a.2744dc7f.2e316907@aol.com> Message-ID: No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never called that "across"). At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very very >freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to describe >how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. > >-dsb >Douglas S. Bigham >Department of Linguistics >University of Texas - Austin >http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 22 19:23:26 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:23:26 -0400 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <20040722191306.6226.qmail@web61307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I heard Bono too, and I'm sure he used /N/--he said the word loudly and emphatically: "This is so fucking great!" (or maybe "cool"). At 12:13 PM 7/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic >pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except >statistically) here. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: -ing vs. -in' in expletives >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:44 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > Well, since -ing/-in' is variable, and since -ing tends to be used in > > formal > > situations, and since receiving an award is a rather formal situation, > > why > > couldn't -ing have been "spontaneous"? > >i was taking as given the observation that the adverbial expletive is >almost always pronounced with final /n/; for vast numbers of people, >this version has been lexicalized, and they treat pronunciations with >/N/ as a kind of hypercorrection, and with derision (as characteristic >of non-native speakers or people who are "totally out of it", to quote >some college acquaintances of mine). (the present participles of the >various verbs "fuck" haven't necessarily gone all the way down this >road.) > >it is true that formal contexts favor /N/ over /n/ for present >participles, other things being equal. but the other things include >the stylistic level of the verb itself (technical, formal, and >infrequent verbs favoring /N/, everyday, informal, and frequent verbs >facilitating /n/) and the speaker's presentation of self (as, say, a >serious authority vs. a regular guy -- correlations of /n/ with >masculinity and masculine self-presentations tend to be high). so even >if bono had been uttering a verb (rather than an adverbial), these >factors would conspire to favor /n/ very heavily. but in fact he was >uttering the adverbial expletive. > >so i would have expected /n/, and my guess is that that's what he said >(but that reporters bizarrely "corrected" the spelling). that's why i >asked if anyone had actually *heard* the event. > >i thought this expectation was so strong that a pronunciation with /N/ >would be very odd. so i would at least consider a calculated use. (an >entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and >informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to >hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". but odd things do happen.) > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:10:43 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:10:43 EDT Subject: 'Nother blend (or, telling on myself) Message-ID: In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:21:45 -0400, > David Bowie wrote: > > I *do* think, though, that there's a difference between > > (1) I've got more than one day's of clean clothes > > and either of > > (2) I've got more than two days' of clean clothes > (3) I've got more than two days of clean clothes > > Whereas--purely from personal intuitions here--(2) and (3) are both > perfectly acceptable, (1) is at best questionable to me, and if i were > marking sentences as grammatical or not for a theoretical syntactic study, i > would probably give (1) a full asterisk. The reason you don't accept (1) is quite simple: It sounds like one is saying "one days", that is a plural noun preceded by a singular adjective, which is a grammatical error. - "James Allan Landau-Landau" (that's how my name appears on my birth certificate!) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:40:39 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:40:39 EDT Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" Message-ID: My daughter (who is 17) referred to a male acquaintance as a "douche". This surprised me, since I am acquainted with the term "douche-bag" as a derogatory term for a male whom one holds in contempt, but not with any slang use of the term "douche" without the suffix "bag." This term (or these two terms) is likely to be more widespread than usual through November, judging by the existence of the Web site www. johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com (a site I recommend only for the connoisseur of political correctness and/or incorrectness). "John Kerry is a douche bag" 717 GOOGLE hits same phrase without the word "bag" 91 GOOGLE hits "George Bush is a douche bag" 7 GOOGLE hits "George Bush is a douche" 2 GOOGLE hits which proves (as if anyone doubted) that the Kerry supporters and the Bush supporters don't speak the same language. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 22 20:48:44 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:44 EDT Subject: farty Message-ID: In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 > "Dennis R. Preston" writes: > > Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with > farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in > St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which > keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the > hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not rhyme with "course" would sound. "My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse of a different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a different color" appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) - James A. Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:19:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:19:38 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <20040722191306.6226.qmail@web61307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I have frequently heard the /N/ variant used as a kind of emphatic > pronunciation. Bono's usage sounds utterly unermarkable (except > statistically) here. then i stand corrected. apparently hyperarticulate emphasis can override the rest. anybody have some actual data on this? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:23:14 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: -ing vs. -in' in expletives In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152156.011740d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I heard Bono too, and I'm sure he used /N/--he said the word loudly and > emphatically: "This is so fucking great!" (or maybe "cool"). hmmm. before a velar, in either case. just being cautious... arnold From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 21:37:29 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:37:29 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152352.01d62a00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top half is rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I was a kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the two halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for that, but Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). Peter Mc. --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when > I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never > called that "across"). > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very >> very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words >> to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >> >> -dsb >> Douglas S. Bigham >> Department of Linguistics >> University of Texas - Austin >> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jul 22 21:52:47 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:52:47 -0500 Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" Message-ID: I have been called, and called others, a "douche" (good-naturedly). From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 21:55:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: <200407220925.1bNGnv3dy3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:25 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >> Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find >> this >> interesting dissertation about the word cunt. >> >> http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html >> >> Page Stephens >> > Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, > but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to > inspire confidence: > > "The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded > language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with > femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' > ('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." > > > The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded > language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with > femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, > derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" > comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" > wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions > quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the > primordial cu- "sound".) > > Larry Perhaps he's merely a follower of the William Safire school of etymology. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:26:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:26:37 -0400 Subject: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" In-Reply-To: <200407221340.1bNKmZ3wU3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:40 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: "douche" vs. "douche-bag" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My daughter (who is 17) referred to a male acquaintance as a "douche". > This > surprised me, since I am acquainted with the term "douche-bag" as a > derogatory > term for a male whom one holds in contempt, but not with any slang use > of the > term "douche" without the suffix "bag." Does your daughter know the literal meaning of "douche [bag]"? I was 17 back in 1954 and even then I didn't know or care [I really wish there was some way to block the rising tide shifting this type of phrase to "didn't know *nor* care"] what a douche bag actually was (in my family, this apparatus was always referred to as a "hot-water bottle"), though I did know that it was insulting to refer to someone that way. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that, if the kid isn't hip to the literal meaning, what would prevent her from arbitrarily deleting "bag" from a phrase whose only real meaning is simply "an insult"? -Wilson Gray > > This term (or these two terms) is likely to be more widespread than > usual > through November, judging by the existence of the Web site www. > johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com > (a site I recommend only for the connoisseur of political correctness > and/or > incorrectness). > > "John Kerry is a douche bag" 717 GOOGLE hits > same phrase without the word "bag" 91 GOOGLE hits > "George Bush is a douche bag" 7 GOOGLE hits > "George Bush is a douche" 2 GOOGLE hits > > which proves (as if anyone doubted) that the Kerry supporters and the > Bush > supporters don't speak the same language. > > - James A. Landau > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:40:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:40:06 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <200407221348.1bNKuT4D83NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:48 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: farty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >> "Dennis R. Preston" writes: >> >> Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >> farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >> St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >> keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >> hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) > > I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse > distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not > rhyme with "course" > would sound. In Saint Louis, you probably wouldn't notice anything strange about "hoarse," but "horse" would probably strike you as sounding a lot like "harse." -Wilson Gray > > "My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse > of a > different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a > different color" > appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) > > - James A. Landau > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:46:31 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:46:31 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090507049@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: >First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, leaving two sides? Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no sandwiches on the diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie customs, luckily, later in life, after our family values were well established). dInIs >I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top half is >rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I was a >kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the two >halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for that, but >Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). > >Peter Mc. > >--On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But when >>I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never >>called that "across"). >> >>At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it diagonally. >>>And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems very >>>very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words >>>to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >>> >>>-dsb >>>Douglas S. Bigham >>>Department of Linguistics >>>University of Texas - Austin >>>http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 22:50:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <200407221236.1bNJmH5Ar3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 3:25 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: down the middle or across > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But > when I > got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I never > called > that "across"). I have to testify on your behalf, this time, Beverly. I *still* cut "sangwiches," as they're called in East Texas, horizontally. -Wilson Gray > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it >> diagonally. >> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems >> very very >> freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no words to >> describe >> how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >> >> -dsb >> Douglas S. Bigham >> Department of Linguistics >> University of Texas - Austin >> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:52:48 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:52:48 -0400 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <12b.46c82b7f.2e31822c@aol.com> Message-ID: You obviously belong to a younger Louisville generation; those taking the language to hell in a handbasket. At one time the hoarse-horse (or four-for) distinction was alive and well in Louisville. "Hoarse" was long-o, the vowel of "coat"; "horse" was open o, the vowel of "caught." Yes, people who don't have the distinction find it hard to imagine. But Northern dip-shits find it hard to imagine I/e conflation before nasals (a Louisville phenomenon live and well), so it's not hard to imagine finding people who find it hard to imagine. dInIs PS: In fact, you could have cited "coarse" - "course." PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. >In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >> "Dennis R. Preston" writes: >> >> Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >> farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >> St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >> keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >> hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) > >I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse >distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not >rhyme with "course" >would sound. > >"My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse of a >different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a >different color" >appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) > > - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jul 22 22:53:54 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:54 -0400 Subject: slang terms for "clitoris" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or the Eric Partridge one, probably worse. dInIs >On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:25 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: slang terms for "clitoris" >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 12:01 PM -0400 7/22/04, Page Stephens wrote: >>>Not exactly clitorus but when I was looking for it online I did find >>>this >>>interesting dissertation about the word cunt. >>> >>>http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html >>> >>>Page Stephens >>> >>Well, the commentary has redeeming social value, as we used to say, >>but I'm not sure Mr. Hunt's expertise as an etymologist does much to >>inspire confidence: >> >>"The prefix 'cu' is one of the oldest word-sounds in recorded >>language. It is an expression quintessentially associated with >>femininity, and is the basis of 'cow' ('female animal'), 'queen' >>('female monarch'), and, of course, 'cunt' ('female genital')." >> >> >>The "prefix 'cu'"? "One of the oldest word-sounds in recorded >>language?" "An expression quintessentially associated with >>femininity"? (Not to mention the fact that "cow", via OE cu:, >>derives by regular Grimm's Law changes from g(w)ou-, while "queen" >>comes from g(w)en-, as in gyn[ecology], so the "oldest-word sound" >>wasn't in either of them, nor is it clear what other "expressions >>quintessentially associated with femininity" trace back to the >>primordial cu- "sound".) >> >>Larry > >Perhaps he's merely a follower of the William Safire school of >etymology. > >-Wilson Gray -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 22 23:02:17 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:02:17 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <200407221546.1bNMkH6Po3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:46 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: down the middle or across > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >> square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. I remember the square loaves, too. I also remember that such a loaf was called "sandwich bread." -Wilson Gray > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, > leaving two sides? > > Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no sandwiches on the > diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie customs, luckily, later > in life, after our family values were well established). > > dInIs > > > > > >> I agree with Doug that cutting a sandwich horizontally (so the top >> half is >> rounded and the bottom half is squared off) would be weird. When I >> was a >> kid my Dad always cut sandwiches down the middle vertically (so the >> two >> halves were symmetrical). We didn't have any particular word for >> that, but >> Mom always cut them "catty-cornered" (not "diagonally"). >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:25 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan >> wrote: >> >>> No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I was a kid! But >>> when >>> I got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut diagonally (I >>> never >>> called that "across"). >>> >>> At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>>> Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean cutting it >>>> diagonally. >>>> And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* (horizontal) middle seems >>>> very >>>> very freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And I have no >>>> words >>>> to describe how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. >>>> >>>> -dsb >>>> Douglas S. Bigham >>>> Department of Linguistics >>>> University of Texas - Austin >>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 23:10:12 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:10:12 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western Civilization... --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 22 23:14:14 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:14:14 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:46 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: >> First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not all was; some was >> square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich bread," as I recall. > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't it go down, > leaving two sides? Because then it would be "vertical." ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 00:30:09 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:30:09 -0500 Subject: The show Message-ID: Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jul 23 00:43:37 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin J Barrett) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:43:37 -0700 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <200407221740.1bNO6S5Pe3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: I recall hearing it for sure around 1984 or 1985 in Seattle. I think I use it on occasion. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Janis Vizier Nihart Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = going to the show tonight? =20 Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = Anyone remember using this term? From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 23 00:44:18 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:44:18 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: It took me a moment to realize that I no longer say this. It certainly was what we would say in rural south-central Kentucky, c. 1970. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Janis Vizier Nihart Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The show Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 00:57:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:57:35 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: "The show" to mean something like a circus is all over newspapers in the 1890's. I didn't try to actually find the earliest cite. I can remember my Virginia relatives saying this in the 1950's when talking about a movie. Sam Clements > Subject: The show > > > Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you going to the show tonight? > Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? Anyone remember using this term? > From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 00:59:23 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:59:23 -0500 Subject: Re The show Message-ID: Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using the term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed down about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older people who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 23 01:10:49 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:10:49 -0400 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <004f01c4704c$3966f290$64c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: >Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when >referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. This was common in my large city too ... or at least in my part of it ... as I recall. >Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie >theater? Anyone remember using this term? It's still current AFAIK. Maybe not fashionable though. I said "movie[s]" usually myself, and still do. But I presume that at least some of my childhood peers who said "the show" for "the movie[s]" are still saying it. Similarly, some refer to a stage play or a TV program as a "show". These usages all seem ordinary to me. -- Doug Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 23 01:20:44 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:20:44 -0400 Subject: farty In-Reply-To: <14351EDB-DC30-11D8-B84B-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Zackly. Most of the world's bad-talkers have four-for conflation with far separate; St. Louis has for-far conflation with four separate; Louisville has all three distinct (or did in the good ol days). dInIs >On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:48 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "James A. Landau" >>Subject: Re: farty >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>In a message dated > Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:53:19 -0400 >>>"Dennis R. Preston" writes: >>> >>>Close but no cigar. Yes, forty (with open o) falls together with >>>farty (with short o), but four (with long o) is actually preserved in >>>St Louis, as it is in my dialect (Louisville) ,one of the few which >>>keeps the hoarse-horse distinction. (Alas, used to keep the >>>hoarse-horse distinction, I should say.) >> >>I am from Louisville and I have no recollection of any hoarse-horse >>distinction. In fact, I can't imagine how whichever one does not >>rhyme with "course" >>would sound. > >In Saint Louis, you probably wouldn't notice anything strange about >"hoarse," but "horse" would probably strike you as sounding a lot like >"harse." > >-Wilson Gray > >> >>"My mother's throat was red, but the doctor said that I had a hoarse >>of a >>different color" is a joke I heard in high school. ("Horse of a >>different color" >>appears in the 1939 movie "Wizard of Oz".) >> >> - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 01:26:52 2004 From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:26:52 EDT Subject: The show Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:40:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM writes: Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = going to the show tonight? =20 Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = Anyone remember using this term? I grew up in a small town in Western New York State (south of Buffalo). We always used the term "show" when referencing a movie theater, and most people in my home town still use the term. I would say it dates to at least the early 1950s. It was always "going to the show" even though the place we went was called the Joyland Theater. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 23 01:35:04 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:35:04 -0400 Subject: The show In-Reply-To: <146.2ee8ef2d.2e31c35c@aol.com> Message-ID: In Minnesota in the '40s and '50s we always went to "the show" or the "matinee show." And don't forget "The Last Picture Show"--though we didn't use that collocation in my area. At 09:26 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:40:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM writes: > >Growing up in a small town I can remember using the term the "show" when = >referring to a movie that you go to a theater to see. Example: Are you = >going to the show tonight? =20 >Was this an old way of referring to the movies or the movie theater? = >Anyone remember using this term? > > > >I grew up in a small town in Western New York State (south of Buffalo). We >always used the term "show" when referencing a movie theater, and most people >in my home town still use the term. I would say it dates to at least the >early 1950s. It was always "going to the show" even though the place we >went was >called the Joyland Theater. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jul 23 02:48:44 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:48:44 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: minstrel show (DA 1870) picture show (DA 1881) Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 02:55:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:55:40 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: The pictures were, of course, not moving. This would be the "first" picture show, as opposed to "The Last Picture Show" :) SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" > picture show (DA 1881) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:03:03 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:03:03 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show In-Reply-To: <200407221759.1bNOpw5OW3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Re The show > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > the = > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > down = > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > people = > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? -Wilson Gray From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 03:08:50 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:08:50 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show Message-ID: And you know/knew that folk up North said "good time" --how? Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > > Subject: Re The show > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > > the = > > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > > down = > > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > > people = > > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. > > I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North > Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the > "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would > ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd > had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did > y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? > > -Wilson Gray > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jul 23 03:15:49 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:15:49 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown market since 1910 or so. I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name of the market as AK-a-me I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of symbols/letters so that you can understand it better. The accent is on the first syllable, and they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? As an addenda, two out of the three people who say it this way are college educated and Jewish. I don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. All three are locally born. Sam Clements From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:34:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:34:28 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as "cambra" in my entire life. There's nothing surprising in the loss of an identical consonant before a consonant, though. I.e,. words like "candid," "comet," and "Hittite" are quite commonly pronounced in isolation as though spelled "candik," "comik," and "Hittike." In a different bar in the same area, I once saw a hand-printed sign advertising the price of a "Picture of beer" and illustrated with a drawing of a pitcher of beer. -Wilson Gray From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Jul 23 03:39:24 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0500 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show Message-ID: We didn't have a good time ---we PASSED a good time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:03 PM Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > > Subject: Re The show > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using > > the = > > term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed > > down = > > about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older > > people = > > who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. > > I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North > Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the > "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk would > ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd > had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time did > y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? > > -Wilson Gray > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 03:54:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:54:29 -0400 Subject: A big time at the [picture] show In-Reply-To: <200407222008.1bNQqA7F93NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > And you know/knew that folk up North said "good time" --how? From having lived above the Mason-Dixon Line for many years, Langhorne. May I call you "Langhorne? Of course, when, as a child, I still lived below the Cotton Curtain, I naively believed that the language that I spoke was called "'Merican," that it was the only language in existence, and that the way that it was spoken in my household was the way that 'Merican was spoken or, at least, ought to have been spoken, across the face of the earth. -Wilson Gray > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: A big time at the [picture] show > > >> On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:59 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >>> Subject: Re The show >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Yes, we used it here in South Louisiana. I gradually stopped using >>> the = >>> term when I moved away for several years. Our last theater closed >>> down = >>> about 4 years ago. I t was officially named The Show. The older >>> people = >>> who speak mostly French still use the term as a French word. >> >> I'm a native of Marshall, TX, about 35 mi. W of Shreveport in North >> Louisiana and yes, ma'am, we sure enough did used to go to the >> "[picture] show" After we came back from the [picture] show, folk >> would >> ask us whether we'd had a "big" time at the show and not whether we'd >> had a "good" time, the way that folk do up North. What kind of time >> did >> y'all have at the show, a "big" time or a "good" time? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 23 06:47:49 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:47:49 -0400 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <5ACA22F6-DC15-11D8-B84B-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? > >Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which >sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in the >day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. I posted something on "poontang" a while back. The "putain" etymology seems OK to me too ... as a guess or conjecture. Apparently clear evidence is lacking and there are several other possibilities IMHO. I do not suggest "poontang" < "pearltongue". I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any racial overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it now. I have some records here. Here is "Poontang Little, Poontang Small" (on the CD entitled "Black Appalachia"), supposedly recorded in 1936: ---------- <> ---------- Some of the lyrics are unintelligible. What does it mean? Here is "Oh! Mister Mitchell" sung by Clara Smith in 1929. The lyrics are generally quite clear: ---------- <> ---------- Here "poontang" is a confection supplied by Mr. Mitchell (a confectionery stand proprietor in Louisiana): the obvious interpretation IMHO (with double-entendre of course) is "poontang" = "sex", without gender specificity (let alone racial specificity). The date is about as early as the earliest conventional citation of the word. I have transcribed the entire lyrics, in case anybody's curious. -- Doug Wilson From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 09:57:41 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:57:41 -0400 Subject: Poontang Message-ID: FYI in terms of this discussion. "Before I had gained my fourteenth year I had learnt that them that would explore a cunt stop'd not to consider the spelling o't." Mark Twain "1601" Page Stephens From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Jul 23 14:25:27 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:25:27 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <008101c47063$5a886d20$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Pretty much the entire native population of south-Jersey calls it the AK-a-me, too. At 11:15 PM 7/22/2004, you wrote: >I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I grew up in Arllington, >VA. 1947-1964. I also had connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > >The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket chain in the Akron >area. It's been the hometown market since 1910 or so. > >I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who were born and raise >here in Akron pronounce the name of the market as > > AK-a-me > >I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of symbols/letters so that >you can understand it better. The accent is on the first syllable, and >they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > >Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > >As an addenda, two out of the three people who say it this way are college >educated and Jewish. I don't know if that's any help, but it's >factual. All three are locally born. > >Sam Clements From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 14:55:43 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:55:43 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess if you are one of those heathens who cuts the crust off the bread, then the question is moot. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >First, this comment assumes rounded-top bread; not > all was; some was > >square. In fact, it was often called "sandwich > bread," as I recall. > > Second, it assumes that the so-called horizontal cut > went > across,leaving a top and bottom half. Why couldn't > it go down, > leaving two sides? > > Of course, I, and nobody on my family, never cut no > sandwiches on the > diagonal (until we were introduced to yuppie > customs, luckily, later > in life, after our family values were well > established). > > dInIs > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 15:03:25 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:03:25 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <008101c47063$5a886d20$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and some people there use the three syllable pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old people because my grandmother was the only I knew who said it that way. Don't know how current it is. She also pronounced batteries (specifically the plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as ''battries'' with two syllables. Ed --- Sam Clements wrote: > I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I > grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had > connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > > The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket > chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown > market since 1910 or so. > > I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who > were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name > of the market as > > AK-a-me > > I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of > symbols/letters so that you can understand it > better. The accent is on the first syllable, and > they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > > Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > > As an addenda, two out of the three people who say > it this way are college educated and Jewish. I > don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. > All three are locally born. > > Sam Clements > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:43:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:43:38 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040723102412.0249cda8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 7:25 AM, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > Pretty much the entire native population of south-Jersey calls it the > AK-a-me, too. it was widespread, but hardly universal, throughout southeastern pennsylvania in the '40s and '50s. my impression was that mostly associated with older speakers (at that time), like my pa. dutch grandmother (who used to take me to "the show" on saturdays -- sometimes vaudeville, sometimes movies), so it may well have disappeared by now. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:32:36 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:32:36 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <20040723150325.19016.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is this common? At 08:03 AM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and >some people there use the three syllable >pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old >people because my grandmother was the only I knew who >said it that way. Don't know how current it is. > >She also pronounced batteries (specifically the >plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as >''battries'' with two syllables. > >Ed > >--- Sam Clements wrote: > > I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I > > grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had > > connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. > > > > The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket > > chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown > > market since 1910 or so. > > > > I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who > > were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name > > of the market as > > > > AK-a-me > > > > I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of > > symbols/letters so that you can understand it > > better. The accent is on the first syllable, and > > they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. > > > > Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? > > > > As an addenda, two out of the three people who say > > it this way are college educated and Jewish. I > > don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. > > All three are locally born. > > > > Sam Clements > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:55:00 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:55:00 -0700 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040723021201.02f38a30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:47 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ...I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > racial > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > now. i can vouch for a race-neutral usage (by a college friend from louisville, ky., who occasionally announced, "i'm goin' to get me some poontang tonight", and occasionally did; everybody involved was white). i believe others can vouch for a race-restricted usage. i doubt that there's real evidence as to which usage was/is "general"; it's very likely to be a matter of usage varying across times and places and social groups. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jul 23 15:56:19 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: Laptopping Message-ID: Mark Evanier's blog: http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2004_07_23.html#008756 "Since I'm away from home and LAPTOPPING it, I'm unable to read all the articles about the 9/11 report that was released today. " From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:07:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:07:03 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <33EFA81E-DC59-11D8-A5AF-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the > South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito > written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had > been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the > author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as > "cambra" in my entire life... probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop in [mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:15:10 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:15:10 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1090512612@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western > Civilization... > > --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:37:56 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:37:56 EDT Subject: Poontang and Tagalog Message-ID: I think that POONTANG is a verb of motion in Tagalog. This is not to say that I am proposing an etymology here, though when in graduate school I first discovered the Tagalog form I was delighted with fantasies of World War II soldiers inventing a new slang term by borrowing while stationed in the Phillipines. But if there are citations from the 1930s, then we'dhave to push this kind of an etymological connection back to the Spanish American War Isoem 40 years earlier). In a message dated 7/23/04 12:23:45 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > On Jul 22, 2004, at 11:47 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ...I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > > racial > > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > > now. > > i can vouch for a race-neutral usage (by a college friend from > louisville, ky., who occasionally announced, "i'm goin' to get me some > poontang tonight", and occasionally did; everybody involved was white). > ? i believe others can vouch for a race-restricted usage.? i doubt that > there's real evidence as to which usage was/is "general"; it's very > likely to be a matter of usage varying across times and places and > social groups. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:37:38 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:37:38 -0700 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723113133.021732e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I noticed my best friend in grade school (Oregon, early 50s, shortly after we moved up from So. Cal.) using a two-syllable pronunciation of 'batteries,' and it seems to me as if I hear it more and more nowadays. But as I think about it, I'm not sure whether he said "bat-try" or "bat-ry" (the latter with unaspirated /t/). I know his family said "cunt-ry" for 'country,' which I've never heard anywhere else. What I hear nowadays is definitely "batry" or "bat-try," both with aspirated /t/. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 23, 2004 11:32 AM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is this > common? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:41:54 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:41:54 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <785D7469-DCC3-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: --On Friday, July 23, 2004 9:15 AM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >> And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western >> Civilization... >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" >> wrote: >> >>> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. > > last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with > "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" > (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the > distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear > it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). > > here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really > expect it. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Indeed. The Decline of Western Civilization is well advanced. PMc ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:44:25 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:44:25 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20-ing=20vs.=20-in'=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?in=20expletives?= Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/04 2:05:33 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > an > entertainment awards ceremony is an odd mixture of formality and > informality, by the way, not a context where i'd expect bono to > hypercorrect to /N/ in "fuckin'". > My gut feeling is that using /n/ rather than /N/ would tend to be just the opposite, i.e., a self-conscious attempt at sounding like a good-ol'-boy rather than a sophisticated entertainer, especially with this word in this context. It seems to me that /N/ is used more often than /n/ as an emphatic adjectival. From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:45:41 2004 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:45:41 -0500 Subject: hoarse-horse Message-ID: AFAIK, the distinction has been lost for quite a while in southern England, and presumably in RP as well. I don't have my copy of Wells (1982) handy to check. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Fri 7/23/2004 11:15 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hoarse-horse last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 16:51:26 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:51:26 -0700 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > You obviously belong to a younger Louisville generation; those taking > the language to hell in a handbasket. At one time the hoarse-horse > (or four-for) distinction was alive and well in Louisville. "Hoarse" > was long-o, the vowel of "coat"; "horse" was open o, the vowel of > "caught." > > Yes, people who don't have the distinction find it hard to imagine... heh, heh. i used to use this contrast in the writing systems section of intro linguistics courses, just after the cot-caught contrast (or lack of it), the point being that the conservatism of english orthography leads to situations in which the orthography is arbitrary from the point of view of many (or most) current speakers, but explicable historically. (if there's time, we go on to meet-meat.) my classes would always have some people who distinguish cot-caught and some who don't, and the latter students would be astonished to discover that there was something systematic in the spelling (even if it was useless for them). horse-hoarse is trickier, though. it's ok if i stick to these two words; spells open o, spells long o (when the vowel and the [r] are tautosyllabic, of course), and i believe that those generalizations are essentially perfect. i almost never had a horse-hoarse distinguisher in my classes (even at ohio state, with lots of southern midlands speakers, and some from the upper south), so the spelling point was a kind of aha experience for the students. but in the horse-hoarse variety most familiar to me (ann daingerfield zwicky's -- born in 1937, early years mostly in lexington, ky. -- identical to dInIs's with respect to this distinction, i think), the spelling goes both ways: open o in , long o in . this is something i'd prefer to conceal from students in an intro class. (let me point out that i'm posting from home, so that i'm away from all the sources that have actual historical information on this topic. i am moved to wonder about different words spelled , and whether they're all in the open-o set, or whether there's variation, and similarly for other spellings.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:13:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:13:39 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <563EE358-DCC2-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:07 AM -0700 7/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jul 22, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>In the men's restroom, as was said back in the day, in a bar in the >>South-Central Area of Los Angeles, I once saw the following graffito >>written over a urinal: "Smile! You on Candy Cambra!" Would that I had >>been there when that was written! I would have loved to know where the >>author came from. I've *never* heard anyone pronounce "camera" as >>"cambra" in my entire life... > >probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop in >[mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the >nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who >notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. > Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same "humus" root as "humble"). larry P.S. Just checked the AHD4 and confirmed another example: the -b- in "camber" < earlier "camur" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:30:03 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:30:03 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > At 9:07 AM -0700 7/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> ... probably not with a full [b]. but a brief transitional oral stop >> in >> [mr] (as in "camera") is extremely common; it's what happens when the >> nasal gesture is ended a bit before the lips are opened. people who >> notice this transitional stop might then interpret it as lexical. > Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples > that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as > in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male > human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same > sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same > "humus" root as "humble"). > > ... P.S. Just checked the AHD4 and confirmed another example: the -b- > in "camber" < earlier "camur" yes, yes, yes. there are piles of cases. i thought of mentioning this, but decided not to do it from (my very imperfect) memory and not to wait until i got to my library. thanks for doing the homework for me/us, larry! arnold From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Fri Jul 23 17:39:58 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:39:58 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <200407231713.AVF14942@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 23 17:45:46 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:45:46 EDT Subject: The show Message-ID: I still go to see the show... or *a* show, at least. Fuzzy thoughts.... I'm thinking that going to the "show" might be a date, while going to the "movies" (etc) would just be hang-out time. Yep. I think that's where I make a distinction. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Jul 23 16:34:18 2004 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:34:18 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across Message-ID: De-lurking to tell what a weird family I come from: we sometimes used to cut sandwiches into 4 squares! I associate this w/ being a little kid (elementary school & younger). I guess there was some concept about smaller pieces for smaller hands & mouths? I don't know. You can only do this with a very thin sandwich & I mostly remember it with butter -- well, margarine, actually -- sandwiches. Grownup &/or thicker sandwiches were cut vertically. I also think horizontal is really weird. Now I cut diagonally. Too much Martha exposure, maybe. (Free Martha!) -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 18:48:59 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:48:59 -0400 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indigo Som said: >De-lurking to tell what a weird family I come from: we sometimes used >to cut sandwiches into 4 squares! I associate this w/ being a little >kid (elementary school & younger). I guess there was some concept >about smaller pieces for smaller hands & mouths? I don't know. You >can only do this with a very thin sandwich & I mostly remember it >with butter -- well, margarine, actually -- sandwiches. We did this also. Kid sandwiches were cut into four pieces. Sometimes it was just quarters (i.e., 4 little squares), and sometimes it was triangles (i.e., 2 diagonal cuts), and sometimes it was a weird combination of one verticle and one diagonal cut. > >Grownup &/or thicker sandwiches were cut vertically. Yep. > >I also think horizontal is really weird. Yep. > >Now I cut diagonally. Nah...still vertical, when I have sandwiches. >Too much Martha exposure, maybe. (Free Martha!) Here we part ways. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 23 20:06:01 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:06:01 -0700 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 01:13 PM 7/23/2004, you wrote: Isn't this a relatively common source of sound change? Two examples that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. "andro-" (as in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. "aner" ('male human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is the same sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same "humus" root as "humble"). Not only is it a common source of sound change, but in fact the same etymon underwent the same change in French, leading to chamBre 'room', which, of course, is what CAMERA originally meant. Wheels within wheels... Geoff --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 23 20:15:54 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:54 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <20040723200601.28098.qmail@web61305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0700 7/23/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? > >JL and besides these more dramatic cases (chimbley, humble, chambre) involving a stop between nasal and liquid, there are the subtler ones in /m+s/, e.g. the widely attested "hampster" larry > >Geoff Nathan wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Geoff Nathan >Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >At 01:13 PM 7/23/2004, you wrote: > >Isn't this a relatively common >source of sound change? Two examples > >that come to mind are "humble" (< Lat. humilis) and Gk. >"andro-" (as > >in "androgyny", "android", etc.) from earlier Gk. >"aner" ('male > >human'). And I'm pretty sure the -b- in Span. "hombre" is >the same > >sort of interpolated stop (Lat. homo, hominis, orig. from the same > >"humus" root as "humble"). > >Not only is it a common source of sound change, but in fact >the same etymon underwent the same change in French, leading to chamBre >'room', which, of course, is what CAMERA originally meant. Wheels >within wheels... > > >Geoff > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 20:22:44 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:22:44 -0400 Subject: The show Message-ID: Then, of course, there is "the show" in baseball usage which refers to the major as opposed to the minor leagues. As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois we called a moving picture show the show perhaps because there was no other show in town. We also used to talk about going to a show, or going to see a picture When I was in college in Crawfordsville, Indiana we used to talk about going to the flick(s) or to see a flick which at the time (early 1960s) seemed to be an anachronism since I had only heard of the use of the word "flickers" as an old word for motion pictures in books about the history of the movies. On the other hand you have to have lived in Indiana to know and love the fact that the minute you step across the Indiana border from any place you feel like you are in a time warp. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Bigham" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: Re: The show > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: The show > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > I still go to see the show... or *a* show, at least. Fuzzy thoughts.... I'm > thinking that going to the "show" might be a date, while going to the "movies" > (etc) would just be hang-out time. Yep. I think that's where I make a > distinction. > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 20:43:45 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:43:45 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: My friend Ken Shipley who is an old hillbilly like I am but now lives today in Cleveland, Ohio was once puzzled by a spray painted message on the side of a building which read "Sarah is a hoe." For the life of him he couldn't figure why anyone would like to call a person an agricultural implement until it dawned on him what the writer was trying to say. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 1:06 PM -0700 7/23/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Isn't nonstandard "chimbley" relevant here? > > > >JL > > and besides these more dramatic cases (chimbley, humble, chambre) > involving a stop between nasal and liquid, there are the subtler ones > in /m+s/, e.g. the widely attested "hampster" > > larry > ! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 23 21:45:11 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:45:11 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech Message-ID: Names are not always what they seem. The common Welsh name BZJXXLLWCP is pronounced Jackson. Mark Twain From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 00:10:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:10:29 -0400 Subject: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard speech In-Reply-To: <200407231445.1bO7QU22p3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: Do you remember Li'l Abner, the old comic strip by Al Capp? This strip occasionally featured the adventures of two aristocratic English families, one named "Chalmondelay," pronounced "Chumley," and the other named "Chumley," pronounced "Chalmondelay." According to the late Mario Pei's The Story of Language, it's also the case that the English pronounce "Mainwaring" as "Mannering" and pronounce "Featherstonehaugh" as "Fanshaw." Of course, Pei was expecting to be taken seriously, whereas Capp was just joking. -Wilson Gray On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:45 PM, Page Stephens wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Page Stephens > Subject: Re: Spelling errors as a reflection of non-standard > speech > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Names are not always what they seem. The common Welsh name BZJXXLLWCP > is > pronounced Jackson. > > Mark Twain > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 00:56:13 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:56:13 -0400 Subject: hoarse-horse In-Reply-To: <200407230915.1bO2I33QT3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 12:15 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: hoarse-horse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 22, 2004, at 4:10 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >> And now we're REALLY talking about the Decline of Western >> Civilization... >> >> --On Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:52 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" >> wrote: >> >>> PPS: hw-w is another fading Louisville distinction. > > last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with > "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" > (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the > distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear > it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). > > here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really > expect it. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > When I was in the Army in 1961, a barracksmate from Cleveland casually remarked, "Have you ever noticed that the "h" is not pronounced in words that start with "wh"? We nearly came to blows. Clearly, his observation was utter nonsense. On another occasion, ca.1973, I happened to mention the title of the CLS book, "Chicago Which Hunt." My hearer was startled, remarking that she hadn't known that there were people who still distinguished between the "hw" pronunciation and the "w" pronunciation. For my part, I was struck by the sudden realization that there were people for whom the title was actually a pun, rather than a mere approximation of one. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:07:05 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:07:05 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <200407230851.1bO2kw6bZ3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Interesting. My father (born in MN,1900) also said "battries." Is > this > common? It's the regular BE pronunciation and,I suppose, also in other Southern(-derived) dialects. (Not that I consider MN to be the location of of a Southern-based dialect!) -Wilson Gray > > At 08:03 AM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> Acme markets are also prominent in Philadelphia and >> some people there use the three syllable >> pronunciation. Growing up I associated it with old >> people because my grandmother was the only I knew who >> said it that way. Don't know how current it is. >> >> She also pronounced batteries (specifically the >> plural--don't remember her ever using the singular) as >> ''battries'' with two syllables. >> >> Ed >> >> --- Sam Clements wrote: >>> I live in Akron, Ohio. I moved here in 1971. I >>> grew up in Arllington, VA. 1947-1964. I also had >>> connections to Danville, VA. 1945-1966. >>> >>> The word "Acme" is the name of a local supermarket >>> chain in the Akron area. It's been the hometown >>> market since 1910 or so. >>> >>> I just noticed that some of my contemporaries, who >>> were born and raise here in Akron pronounce the name >>> of the market as >>> >>> AK-a-me >>> >>> I'm sorry if I can't do it in the right kind of >>> symbols/letters so that you can understand it >>> better. The accent is on the first syllable, and >>> they pronounce it as if it has three syllables. >>> >>> Why do they say this? Is it local to Ohio? >>> >>> As an addenda, two out of the three people who say >>> it this way are college educated and Jewish. I >>> don't know if that's any help, but it's factual. >>> All three are locally born. >>> >>> Sam Clements >>> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! >> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 01:18:24 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:18:24 -0400 Subject: Poontang and Tagalog In-Reply-To: <104.4bf6e7ad.2e3298e4@aol.com> Message-ID: >I think that POONTANG is a verb of motion in Tagalog. This is not to say that >I am proposing an etymology here, though when in graduate school I first >discovered the Tagalog form I was delighted with fantasies of World War II >soldiers inventing a new slang term by borrowing while stationed in the >Phillipines. >But if there are citations from the 1930s, then we'dhave to push this kind of >an etymological connection back to the Spanish American War Isoem 40 years >earlier). I'm ignorant of Tagalog, but I have looked into this a little. "Punta" = "go to" apparently can add a ligature to give "puntang". This is fine phonetically but where's the semantic connection? There is another candidate, however: Tagalog "puta" (from Spanish) can add a ligature too, giving "putang". Can we get closer? Maybe. Tagalog also has an expletive "pun[y]eta[ng]" which I believe is from Spanish "pun~eta" but which is conflated with "puta" in Tagalog sometimes, at least nowadays. So here are two very comparable candidate etyma: French "putain" Meaning: "prostitute" Phonetics: maybe plausible, but lacking the first nasal Route of adoption: plausible (Louisiana French OR US military [France WW I or Haiti 1915]) Tagalog "putang" Meaning: "prostitute" Phonetics: maybe plausible, but lacking the first nasal (BUT some suggestion of a possible explanation as above) Route of adoption: plausible (US military, large Philippine presence 1898-1941) Why choose one over the other? Until some documentary evidence comes in, I believe the question is open. There are, I believe, some other possibilities too. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:25:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:25:52 -0400 Subject: Poontang In-Reply-To: <200407222347.1bNTQu6ln3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 2:47 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Poontang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Any connection between "pearltongue" and "poontang"? >> >> Probably not. The OED suggests French "putain" for the latter, which >> sounds good to me. Also, "poontang" is - or, at least, was, back in >> the >> day - felt by blacks to be somewhat racist. > > I posted something on "poontang" a while back. The "putain" etymology > seems > OK to me too ... as a guess or conjecture. Apparently clear evidence is > lacking and there are several other possibilities IMHO. I do not > suggest > "poontang" < "pearltongue". > > I have serious doubt as to whether "poontang" generally has/had any > racial > overtone at all. This is a little complicated and I won't go into it > now. Doug, you can't be serious! You know that there's not necessarily a one-to-one and onto mapping between truth and what people believe! Surely, you've heard of a phenomenon called "religion"!:-) -Wilson Gray > > I have some records here. Here is "Poontang Little, Poontang Small" > (on the > CD entitled "Black Appalachia"), supposedly recorded in 1936: > > ---------- > > < Poontang stretches like a rubber ball. > Oh my babe, took my salty thing. ... > > < Oh, the man come to get it ain't got no sense. ....>> > > ---------- > > Some of the lyrics are unintelligible. What does it mean? > > Here is "Oh! Mister Mitchell" sung by Clara Smith in 1929. The lyrics > are > generally quite clear: > > ---------- > > < Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'll tell the world that it's a whang. .... > > < But when you give me poontang I just lose control. ....>> > > ---------- > > Here "poontang" is a confection supplied by Mr. Mitchell (a > confectionery > stand proprietor in Louisiana): the obvious interpretation IMHO (with > double-entendre of course) is "poontang" = "sex", without gender > specificity (let alone racial specificity). The date is about as early > as > the earliest conventional citation of the word. I have transcribed the > entire lyrics, in case anybody's curious. > > -- Doug Wilson > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 01:45:50 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:45:50 -0400 Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") Message-ID: > As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois If memory serves, the nickname of the Centralia High School teams is/was the "Orphans of the Storm." If this is correct, in the words of James Brown and those of The Channels, Please, please, please! Explain it to me! I've wondered about this since at least 1950. It surely is the most depressing team nickname that I've ever heard of. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 02:30:35 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:30:35 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Jul 24 02:49:00 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:49:00 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407240230.i6O2Ul128467@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". Jim Parish From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:02:14 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:02:14 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: I grew up in the 50's and 60's and definitely remember hearing and using the rhyme in South Louisiana. What does Puttin and Tane mean? Janis Nihart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jul 24 03:04:07 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:04:07 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: My mother,white, born in Danville, Va. in 1923 told me this rhyme and said she and her friends used it in the elementary grades. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 03:04:32 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:04:32 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: We discussed this a while back. Here's one message, although of somewhat dubious provenance: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110A&L=ads-l&P=R5702 (Hope the link works.) -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 03:19:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:19:18 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407231949.1bOcB34De3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard it as Puddin tame myself. But, as I noted, I've run across it in published collections of nursery rhyme. These books give it as "Putting and ta'en." FWIW, I interpret "ta'en" as "taken," because of the apostrophe and the fact that "putting" and "taken," in some sense, go together, though "putting and ta(k)ing" would make more sense. But, who knows? Nursery rhymes don't have to make sense. -Wilson Gray On Jul 23, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray wrote: >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". > > Jim Parish > From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:28:14 2004 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:28:14 -0500 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with the expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I think " Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" meant I'm going to New Orleans. Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on New Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the same thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? Thanks Janis Nihart From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 03:37:29 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:37:29 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407232002.1bOcNRMc3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:02 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I grew up in the 50's and 60's and definitely remember hearing and > using the > rhyme in South Louisiana. What does Puttin and Tane mean? I'm not sure. I've seen that line in print as "Putting and ta'en," which, I think, stands for "putting and taken." It's probably not supposed to mean anything; it's just there to provide a rhyme. I don't think I've heard anybody actually say it except when I was in the first grade, so it probably doesn't have a "real" meaning, since it's just for little kids. Back in the '60's, when I told my buddy about the recorded version, he thought that I was just making some arcane joke. He was freaked when he heard the song for himself. It was like someone had made a recording for adults of "Humpty-Dumpty" or something. Really weird. -Wilson Gray > Janis Nihart > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:30 PM > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- > ----- >> >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 03:56:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:56:18 EDT Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com Message-ID: STAY CLASSY & GINORMOUS STAY CLASSY--4,330 Google hits, 39 Google Groups hits GINORMOUS--19,700 Google hits, 5,180 Google Groups hits "Stay Classy" is Will Ferrell's catchphrase in ANCHORMAN. "Gonormous" was his catchword in ELF. The HDAS does not have "ginormous," but Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG cites it as RAF slang from the 1940s. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Dallas--Category Won ... elegant post. I hope your future competitions go well. Stay classy. -- Keith HOP at krypton.mankato.msus.edu "Peng! Right in the toast!" rec.arts.bodyart - Sep 2, 1995 by Keith L. Hopkins - View Thread (4 articles) Re: Chief fans the worst in the league?' ... teams. I'd like to see it stay classy. The players on these two teams rarely spar, and the fans should follow their example. Personally ... rec.sport.football.pro - Dec 10, 1994 by sl930 at cc.usu.edu - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Results of Symbol Grounding Poll: Nays (3rd of 3 parts) ... (Now for the poll): If discussion continues to involve ginormous reply's: END IT If discussion stops taking over whole digests: KEEP IT. ... comp.ai - Jul 8, 1987 by harnad at mind.UUCP - View Thread (1 article) Re: Phase-Locked Loop Design In the (likely) event that the program is a bit ginormous to post over the net, a snail mail contact address will do just fine. ... misc.wanted - Oct 14, 1986 by Richard Andrews - View Thread (1 article) Re: Something else to watch out for! ... feeling a thing (although I've often wished they really were like soft fluffy cotton wool :-) ) Perhaps the boiling-up was due just to a ginormous thermal from ... net.aviation - Jun 14, 1985 by Brent P. Callaghan - View Thread (17 articles) Re: Shared code/libraries ... the listings are taller than me (don't forget, they page the OS, since it's trivial with all that hardware help, so they don't really mind if it's ginormous). ... net.unix-wizards - Aug 17, 1983 by Dave Lukes - View Thread (2 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GICLEE GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 21 July 2004, pg. D1. It is not in the OED. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Prints" through ... alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ... fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article) Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite etranglee. ... soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu - View Thread (3 articles) ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e- chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ... alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We discussed this a while back. Here's one message, although of > somewhat > dubious provenance: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110A&L=ads-l&P=R5702 > > (Hope the link works.) > > -- Doug Wilson > Yes, the link does work, still. It's amazing - or maybe it's not, to a specialist - that these things are so old. Unfortunately, I can't cite my source. In fact, strangely enough for me, I can't even remember what library I was in when I ran across the printed version that I used in my post. It was a serendipity moment. I was researching some other topic and accidentally ran across "What's your name?" I saw that the second line - the only line of interest - was given as "Putting and ta'en," made a mental note only of that, and moved on. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 04:12:26 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:12:26 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407232028.1bOdd039Y3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = > through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = > here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with > the = > expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: > > The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = > tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. > > The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I > = > think " > > Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. > > Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used "pick up" with this meaning. -Wilson Gray > > to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the = > closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = > Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = > expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" = > meant I'm going to New Orleans. > > Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on > New = > Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = > popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the > same = > thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? > > Thanks > Janis Nihart > From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 24 04:32:58 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:32:58 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <410187CC.1258.18F6155@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 7:49 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > > victimized by the following word game: > > > > Q. What's your name? > > A. Putting and ta'en! > > Ask me again > > And I'll tell you the same. > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". I'm a white person and I recall the rhyme from my childhood. The version I knew was with "Puddin' tane". (Spelling is approximate; I don't recall it being written.) This version also appears in a 1998 episode of the TV show "X Files," spoken by Agent Mulder. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 04:51:46 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:51:46 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was stunned. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 05:24:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:24:31 -0400 Subject: South Park Message-ID: In a recent episode of South Park, the kids don't know the meaning of "skylarking" or "tomfoolery." Sigh! The pop song, "Skylark," which contains a description of skylarkink, is an old - really old, I guess - favorite of mine from around the late '40's or early '50's and the meaning of "tomfoolery" was once so well-known that it inspired an R&B record by that name in the "50's. BTW, if you've never seen a skylark skylarking, it's quite impressive. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jul 24 07:01:54 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:01:54 -0500 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: > > I've heard of it, though I've never heard it myself; my impression was > that the first line of the answer was "Puddin' tame". >This version also appears in a 1998 episode of the TV show "X Files," >spoken by Agent Mulder. It seems like Barney Fife also quoted it in an episode of The Andy Griffith Show (or was it Gomer Pyle on his show?) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jul 24 07:11:06 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:11:06 -0500 Subject: Giclee Message-ID: "Giclee" is a word meaning "expensive inkjet print". People who sell "fine art prints" use big inkjet printers to make them. Giclee is French for something or other that justifies its use, but it's a fancy inkjet printer, is all. -- --------------------------------------------- GICLEE =20 GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits =20 "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL,= =20 21 July 2004, pg. D1. =20 It is not in the OED. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by=20 Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Pr= ints"=20 through ...=20 alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse=20 giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ...=20 fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article)=20 =20 Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une= =20 giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite=20 etranglee. ...=20 soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu -=20 View Thread (3 articles) =20 =20 ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e-=20 chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ...=20 alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a > regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us > young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the > 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard > "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. > Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term > for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of > the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate > of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether > it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He > replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely > disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was > stunned. In addition, Australians use (or have used) "plink". In fact, "plonk" and its relatives are first recorded in Australia and come from the exposure of troops (linguistically and gustationally) to the French "vin blanc" in the First World War. Until you wrote, I wasn't even sure that this set of words was known in the USA ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:44:03 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:44:03 -0400 Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") Message-ID: The basketball team showed up at a tournament one time during a storm looking somewhat bedraggled, and someone said they looked Orphans of the Storm from the old movie of that title. At least this is the story I have been told. This occurred during the 1930s. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:45 PM Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Centralia, Illinois (was "The show") > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > As a kid back in the 1950s in Centralia, Illinois > > If memory serves, the nickname of the Centralia High School teams > is/was the "Orphans of the Storm." If this is correct, in the words of > James Brown and those of The Channels, Please, please, please! Explain > it to me! I've wondered about this since at least 1950. It surely is > the most depressing team nickname that I've ever heard of. > > -Wilson Gray From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:48:03 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: My grandfather, born in 1888 in Anna, Illinois, used to say it all the time when I was growing up though he said puddin in place of putting Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 12:55:21 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:55:21 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will check. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 12:57:13 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:57:13 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: It was used quite often in the British comedy drama Rumpole of the Bailey which was on PBS' Mystery Theater a few years ago. It referred to a cheap wine and fitted Rumpole's status as a person who defended lower class criminals. The Rumpole series was based on the books of John Mortimer as I recall. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:51 AM Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a > regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us > young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the > 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard > "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. > Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term > for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of > the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate > of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether > it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He > replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely > disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was > stunned. > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:03:05 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:03:05 -0700 Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com Message-ID: I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; barrypopik.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STAY CLASSY & GINORMOUS =20 STAY CLASSY--4,330 Google hits, 39 Google Groups hits GINORMOUS--19,700 Google hits, 5,180 Google Groups hits =20 "Stay Classy" is Will Ferrell's catchphrase in ANCHORMAN. "Gonormous" was hi= s=20 catchword in ELF. =20 The HDAS does not have "ginormous," but Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY=20 OF SLANG cites it as RAF slang from the 1940s. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Dallas--Category Won ... elegant post. I hope your future competitions go well. Stay classy. -- Keith HOP at krypton.mankato.msus.edu "Peng! Right in the toast!"=20 rec.arts.bodyart - Sep 2, 1995 by Keith L. Hopkins - View Thread (4 articles= ) =20 Re: Chief fans the worst in the league?' ... teams. I'd like to see it stay classy. The players on these two teams rarely spar, and the fans should follow their example. Personally ...=20 rec.sport.football.pro - Dec 10, 1994 by sl930 at cc.usu.edu - View Thread (1=20 article) =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Results of Symbol Grounding Poll: Nays (3rd of 3 parts) ... (Now for the poll): If discussion continues to involve ginormous reply's= : END IT If discussion stops taking over whole digests: KEEP IT. ...=20 comp.ai - Jul 8, 1987 by harnad at mind.UUCP - View Thread (1 article) =20 Re: Phase-Locked Loop Design In the (likely) event that the program is a bit ginormous to post over the net, a snail mail contact address will do just fine. ...=20 misc.wanted - Oct 14, 1986 by Richard Andrews - View Thread (1 article) =20 Re: Something else to watch out for! ... feeling a thing (although I've often wished they really were like soft=20 fluffy cotton wool :-) ) Perhaps the boiling-up was due just to a ginormous thermal from=20 ...=20 net.aviation - Jun 14, 1985 by Brent P. Callaghan - View Thread (17 articles= ) =20 Re: Shared code/libraries ... the listings are taller than me (don't forget, they page the OS, since=20 it's trivial with all that hardware help, so they don't really mind if it's ginormous).=20 ...=20 net.unix-wizards - Aug 17, 1983 by Dave Lukes - View Thread (2 articles) =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------------------- GICLEE =20 GICLEE--483,000 Google hits, 2,010 Google Groups hits =20 "When Art Imitates Art: The 'Giclee' Debate" was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL,= =20 21 July 2004, pg. D1. =20 It is not in the OED. =20 =20 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Art Show List-Texas (june20) part2 ... and Richard Leigh Horridge Winter Street Art Center Painting, Work by=20 Theresa Ducayet JUDY YOUENS GALLERY, "Willis Lee: Photogravure and Giclee Pr= ints"=20 through ...=20 alt.art.colleges - Jun 20, 1997 by aslt - View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Histoire: Larguer la sauce dans le futal ... cuir. "Oh, dis donc, tu t'es completement vide toi aussi, quelle grosse=20 giclee t'a envoyee, c'est super!" Christophe, 20 ans. Si ...=20 fr.soc.homosexualite - May 17, 1997 by FRANCK - View Thread (1 article)=20 =20 Charlie Hebdo : les articles ... Les manifs se sont terminees par des flinguages, des arrestations et une= =20 giclee de tortures. La periode de democratisation qui suivra sera vite=20 etranglee. ...=20 soc.culture.algeria - Oct 2, 1997 by djerroud at nsvs33.nsrl.rochester.edu -=20 View Thread (3 articles) =20 =20 ALANA 01/?? MfF,pedo,cns ... culs. Au son de cette suplication une derniere giclee de sperme s'e-=20 chappe de ma queue qui fini de se vider entre nos corps. Apres ...=20 alt.sex.stories - Jan 2, 1995 by _Cyber Kisss_ - ogle.com/groups?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&threadm=3D004429Z03011995%40anon.pe= net.fi&rnum=3D77View Thread (1 article) =20 =20 Re: cocktail ? ... Un peu sucr=E9 mais pas mal ! Dans des petits verres bas : - Une tombee=20= de=20 grenadine - De la Vodka ou du Gin - Une giclee de Baileys Alexandra ...=20 fr.rec.cuisine - Apr 18, 1995 by Jean-Marc Richard - View Thread (2 articles= ) =20 =20 A Blemish on Katz's WWW site ... Muhammad Hamidullah, French, 1981 (10th Edition, completely revised) ``I= l=20 a ete cree d'une giclee d'eau sortie d'entre lombes et cotes.'' He was=20 created from a ...=20 alt.religion.islam - Jan 1, 1996 by AAA - m/groups?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&threadm=3D4c96tk%24fb1%40pollux.usc.edu&rn= um=3D79View Thread (1 article) =20 In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted=20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------------------------- EATING YOUR WORDS =20 Amazon.com says that this OUP book is available from June 4, 2004. (OUP has=20 it due August 6th.) Amazon says: "Customers interested in this title may al= so=20 be interested in: AEROBIC STRIPTEASE--The only official place to purchase=20 Carmen Electra's workour DVD series." =20 See the NEW YORK POST Page Six fight between Mimi Sheraton and William=20 Grimes. Mimi's newest is titled EATING MY WORDS. =20 It appears that William Grimes put his name on the book, but OED grunts did=20 most of the work. I've suggested such a book for years. OUP never contacted=20= me=20 regarding this book. OUP can use any part of my work without compensation, a= nd=20 this book prevents me from selling a similar book. =20 For people wondering when my food dictionary is coming out, well, there ain'= t=20 no food dictionary. Who's going to give me money for it? Who's going to=20 publish it--Oxford? I'm going to publish a dictionary the size and scope of=20= DARE=20 all by myself in my spare time after a full day of parking tickets? =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -------------------------------------------- BARRYPOPIK.COM =20 The site was mentioned on GOTHAMIST (www.gothamist.com) on July 22nd, and it= =20 got well over a thousand hits yesterday. =20 On the Big Apple Whore Hoax front this week, a writer cited the hoax in a=20 July 4th article (see Google News), and Jerry Cohen contacted her, and she=20 contacted Peter Salwen, who admitted that it was a "spoof." Salwen "didn't r= ealize"=20 it was still on the web. It might, MIGHT, be removed.=20 =20 So everything is rounding into place for when the "big apple" sculptures hit= =20 New York City on August 15th for the Big Apple Fest (www.bigapplefest.org).=20= My=20 site might get some hits, although it's still way down on Google, even on a=20 search for "Barry Popik." =20 But no matter what the site is or how many hits it gets, the fact is, I don'= t=20 make anything, and I'll never make anything, and I work every day, and the=20 city (who I work for) doesn't give me health care, and Oxford (who I work fo= r)=20 doesn't give me health care, and I can't even buy health care anywhere, and=20= I=20 did all this Big Apple stuff twelve years ago. =20 I wasn't in the mood for posting much this week and might not be in the=20 fuiture. It's nice to see others take up the slack --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:05:13 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:05:13 -0700 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning picking things up off the floor, mainly. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The mouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = > through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = > here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with > the = > expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: > > The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = > tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. > > The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I > = > think " > > Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. > > Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used "pick up" with this meaning. -Wilson Gray > > to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the = > closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = > Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = > expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" = > meant I'm going to New Orleans. > > Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on > New = > Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = > popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the > same = > thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? > > Thanks > Janis Nihart > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 13:09:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University Message-ID: Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something like "van blunc." Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After we moved to Saint Louis, we still returned to Marshall, TX, on a regular basis. While there ca.1950, the big colored boys taught us young peppers new "bad" words not to be used in the presence of the 'rents. One of these was "plunk," a slang term for wine. I never heard "plunk" used for wine or anything else anywhere else that I've lived. Years later, I read somewhere or other that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford University. I was amazed by the similarity of the two terms, Years after that, I met an Englishman who was a graduate of Oxford and, of course, the first thing that I asked him was whether it was true that "plonk" was a slang term for wine used at Oxford. He replied, "No, that's not true." And, of course, I was sorely disappointed. But then he continued, "We say 'plunk,''' And I was stunned. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 13:12:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:12:02 -0400 Subject: South Park Message-ID: Skylark (music Hoagy Carmichael lyrics Johnny Mercer) copyright 1941 Skylark, have you anything to say to me, Won't you tell me where my love can be? Is there a meadow in the mist Where someone's waiting to be kissed? Skylark, have you seen a valley green with spring Where my heart can go a-journeying Over the shadows and the rain to a blossom-covered lane? And in your lonely flight haven't you heard the music of the night? Wonderful music, faint as a will-o-the-wisp, crazy as a loon, Sad as a gypsy serenading the moon, oh... Skylark, I don't know if you can find these things, But my heart is riding on your wings So if you see them anywhere Won't you lead me there. I just found the lyrics misattributed to Glenn Miller which is about par for the course online. Miller merely recorded it. Tomfoolery is also the name of the recent musical based on the songs of Tom Lehrer. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 1:24 AM Subject: South Park > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: South Park > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > In a recent episode of South Park, the kids don't know the meaning of > "skylarking" or "tomfoolery." > > Sigh! The pop song, "Skylark," which contains a description of > skylarkink, is an old - really old, I guess - favorite of mine from > around the late '40's or early '50's and the meaning of "tomfoolery" > was once so well-known that it inspired an R&B record by that name in > the "50's. > > BTW, if you've never seen a skylark skylarking, it's quite impressive. > > -Wilson Gray From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Jul 24 13:29:43 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:29:43 +0100 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and > American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something like > "van blunc." > > Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though > syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. > > JL I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, no doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was perhaps an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. Think of Prince Charles attempting to get his strangulated syllables around it. As for the WW1 Tommies, didn't 'vin blanc' come out more as 'vin(g) blong' (and thus, no doubt, plonk). Hence, from the WW1 memoirs of Frank. Richards _Old Soldiers Never Die_ (1964) 83: 'Ving blong was very cheap [...] a man could get a decent pint and a half bottle for a franc.' Red wine was 'vongrooge'. Australian troops also called white wine 'plinkety-plonk.' Jonathon Gree From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Jul 24 15:39:00 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:39:00 +0100 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, > no doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself > 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was > perhaps an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. Think > of Prince Charles attempting to get his strangulated syllables around > it. As for the WW1 Tommies, didn't 'vin blanc' come out more as 'vin(g) > blong' (and thus, no doubt, plonk). Hence, from the WW1 memoirs of > Frank. Richards _Old Soldiers Never Die_ (1964) 83: 'Ving blong was > very cheap [...] a man could get a decent pint and a half bottle for a > franc.' Red wine was 'vongrooge'. Australian troops also called white > wine 'plinkety-plonk.' Having written a Q&A piece about this for next week's issue, I am interested to hear of a British example in reference to WW1 - all the ones I found were to Australian sources. Have you any others? Would I still be right in thinking that "plonk" was a (re)introduction of the Australian term into British English in the 1950s? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jul 24 15:46:13 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:46:13 -0400 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: My mother would say quite often... pick up your toys. David barnhart at highlands.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 16:56:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:56:23 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407240555.1bOm3L32x3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:20:30 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:20:30 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: Not unless the same actor voiced the frog character for Andy Devine's '50s show. If it wasn't dubbed, the kid just had a weirdly deep voice. Haven't found the rhyme in that particular Botkin book, but earlier refs have now been posted. JL ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 17:21:08 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:21:08 EDT Subject: hoarse-horse Message-ID: You're recollection is correct--RP has never had this distinction between hw and w--the distinction is preserved in many or all Scottish dialects however. Dale Coye The College of NJ In a message dated 7/23/2004 12:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: AFAIK, the distinction has been lost for quite a while in southern England, and presumably in RP as well. I don't have my copy of Wells (1982) handy to check. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Fri 7/23/2004 11:15 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hoarse-horse last night i heard a BBC news report about whaling ships, with "whaling" pronounced with a [w]; i kept hearing it as "wailing ships" (the Flying Dutchman, maybe). i should know by now that the distinction is rapidly fading in the u.k., but i keep expecting to hear it in people who are otherwise RP speakers (as this newsreader was). here in the u.s., i'm pleased when a [hw] goes by, but i don't really expect it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 17:23:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:23:18 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407240605.1bOmdiIJ3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > picking things up off the floor, mainly. > > JL Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >> Subject: The mouse >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = >> through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down >> = >> here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with >> the = >> expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: >> >> The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a >> = >> tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. >> >> The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I >> = >> think " >> >> Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. >> >> Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away > > My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used > "pick up" with this meaning. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the >> = >> closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = >> Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = >> expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" >> = >> meant I'm going to New Orleans. >> >> Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on >> New = >> Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = >> popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the >> same = >> thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? >> >> Thanks >> Janis Nihart >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:30:25 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: Shd have said that the incarnation of Froggy the Gremlin that I remember appeared on the Saturday morning TV show, "Andy's Gang," with Andy Devine, sponsored by Buster Brown Shoes. Each week, as you may remember, Froggy would "plunk his Magic Twanger," resulting in God knows what. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls > the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly > hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for another week." > Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white > children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will > check. Thank you. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 17:31:36 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:31:36 -0700 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: And T for Thelma, gal who made a FOOOOOL out of me. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The mouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > picking things up off the floor, mainly. > > JL Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:28 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart >> Subject: The mouse >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = >> through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down >> = >> here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with >> the = >> expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: >> >> The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a >> = >> tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. >> >> The expression "do you know what i find?" meaning "do you know what I >> = >> think " >> >> Go to bed---told to someone when you don't believe what they say. >> >> Pick up the dishes(or whatever)--Pick up meaning to put away > > My grandmother and my mother, both originally from Longview, TX, used > "pick up" with this meaning. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> to town---We lived about 2 hours away from New Orleans and it was the >> = >> closest city. If we went shopping there,we never used the name New = >> Orleans . We always said We were going to town. We never used the = >> expression for any other place we went shopping. " I'm going to town" >> = >> meant I'm going to New Orleans. >> >> Also we had a custom that was similar to Halloween except it was on >> New = >> Years Day. We went around the neighborhood collecting mostly sugar = >> popcorn and fruits in brown paper bags. Anyone remember doing the >> same = >> thing on new Years Day in other parts of the country.? >> >> Thanks >> Janis Nihart >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 17:47:35 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:47:35 EDT Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a sound change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or ath-uh-let-ic (never heard anyone say this either, but theres a famous Ring Lardner story, I believe it's "You can look it up" where the narrator refers to the Philadelphia Ath-uh-letics. Another example is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some dialects use. Dale Coye The College of NJ From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 17:59:41 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:59:41 -0400 Subject: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University In-Reply-To: <200407240625.1bOmwz7dt3NZFlr0@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:29 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:09:17 -0700, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: East Texas blacks shake hands with Oxford University >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Supposedly "plunk/plonk" originated in World War I. British and >> American soldiers both tended to pronounce "vin blanc" as something >> like >> "van blunc." >> >> Wilson, yours is the first US example of "plunk" I have seen, though >> syn. "pluck" has been reported once or twice. >> >> JL > > I'm not sure about 'plunk' at Oxford. Not in my time - 1966-9. Plonk, > no > doubt and I remember a cheap wine, c. 1980, which labelled itself > 'Plonque'. I just wonder whether what Wilson heard as 'plunk' was > perhaps > an upper/upper-middle class UK pronuinciation of plonk. > > Jonathon Green I've actually considered this possibility myself: that my friend simply misheard my American pronunciation of "plonk" and I, in turn, misheard his Oxonian pronunciation of the same word. "Two countries separated by the same language" or some such, as someone once said. It's like when you ask a Dutch speaker to say "bet" and you hear "bat." But, if you ask him to say "bat," you hear "bet." Of course, the Dutchman has used the same vowel in both cases. But, when this sound is filtered through the expectations of the (American-)English ear, confusion results and you think you're hearing the expected US-English vowels, but with their "polarity," as it were, reversed. In any case, the similarity between E TX BE "plunk" and Oxonian "plonk" is quite surprising. Which leads me to a discussion of -onk vs. -unk in BE that I'll get into in the near future, I hope. -Wilson Gray > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Jul 24 17:52:28 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: My mother (white, born in MN in 1906) chanted a similar rhyme to us when we annoyed her with constant questions, but the second line was different. For the life of me, I can't recall what it was though, and none of the alternatives offered ring a bell. It sounds like a turn of the (old) century rhyme that has largely faded, maybe because the second line doesn't make any sense. But what's a front-off game? At 10:30 PM 7/23/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >victimized by the following word game: > >Q. What's your name? >A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > >This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another >when she was a child. > >This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >back in the 'Sixties. > >So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, >over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard >sounds something like this: > >Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > >Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > >-Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 18:17:24 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:17:24 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. holy-crap handle holy-shit handle Jesus handle Jesus strap oh-crap handle Oh-Jesus strap oh-shit handle shit handle Any comments wd be welcome. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 18:19:00 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:19:00 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241030.1bOqlW34F3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Shd have said that the incarnation of Froggy the Gremlin that I > remember appeared on the Saturday morning TV show, "Andy's Gang," with > Andy Devine, sponsored by Buster Brown Shoes. Each week, as you may > remember, Froggy would "plunk his Magic Twanger," resulting in God > knows what. > > JL I don't recall the TV show, but yes, Froggy likewise plucked his Magic Twanger on radio, so it's very likely that the two "Froggys" were the same, in concept, at least. Given that there was a TV show of essentially the same format, I should probabaly amend my earlier statement to read something like, "Smilin' Ed was fired, when ..." and not that "The show was cancelled ..." Andy Devine's voice was so distinctive that there's no possibility that "Smilin' Ed McConnell" might have been a nom de radio that he once used. -Wilson Gray > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 24, 2004, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> The (white) character "Froggy" in an Our Gang short (ca.1942) pulls >> the same trick with the same words. I too thought it was incredibly >> hip but am still waiting for a chance to use it myself. > > Is this Froggy related to "Froggy the Gremlin" of the old > Saturday-morning "Smilin' Ed McConnell Show" - sponsored by Buster > Brown shoes: "'Arf! Arf!' That's my dog Tige! He lives in a shoe! I'm > Buster Brown! Look for me in there, too!" - on radio of the same era? > > The show was cancelled after Smilin Ed, thinking that he was off the > air, commented, "There. That oughta hold the little bastards for > another week." > >> Am fairly certain there is a ref. to the rhyme in use among white >> children in Ben Botkin's "Treasury of American Folklore" (1944). Will >> check. > > Thank you. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 18:46:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:46:37 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) In-Reply-To: <200407241047.1bOqCE4kl3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:47 PM, Dale Coye wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dale Coye > Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a > sound > change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or > ath-uh-let-ic (never heard anyone say this either.) Another example > is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some > dialects use. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ Dale, surely you jest! The pronunciations "athalete," etc. are so common that I fully expect the next edition of the AHD to declare them standard.;-) My stepfather, a native of Saint Louis, used "ellum," "fillum," etc. In his case, though, this must have been a speech defect, since forms like these are most definitely not a feature of the speech of St. Louisans; "film," "elm" and "fi'm," "e'm" are the only possibilities. Such epentheses are a feature of Dutch, to the extent that the town name, Almelo (approx. ahlmuh-lo), is now usually pronounced as though it was spelled "Alemlo (approx. "ahlum-lo"). -Wilson Gray From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 19:07:55 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:07:55 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20slang=20(was=20Re:=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Phat=20[was=20Re:=20gay/ghey/ghay])?= Message-ID: In a message dated 6/29/04 2:49:59 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > which i somehow missed.? and the 1978 AmSp is missing from my library; > 1977, yes, 1979, yes, but 1978, no.? so i guess it's time for a trip to > the library. > All issues of American Speech are available online. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 24 19:45:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:45:37 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241100.1bOqP47jb3NZFkl0@cockatoo> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 1:52 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My mother (white, born in MN in 1906) chanted a similar rhyme to us > when we > annoyed her with constant questions, but the second line was > different. For the life of me, I can't recall what it was though, and > none > of the alternatives offered ring a bell. It sounds like a turn of the > (old) > century rhyme that has largely faded, maybe because the second line > doesn't > make any sense. But what's a front-off game? In Saint Louis, to front someone off is to subject someone to ridicule by using verbal trickeration. In this case, when you ask someone his name and he replies with a nonsense rhyme to which you can have no reply (Ask me again and I'll tell you the same!) when you expect to hear the person's name, you're kinda left standing there with your brain hanging out. It's even worse when the interchange is spontaneous between adults and not part of a standardized hazing ritual between little kids. Consider the following exchange between two women. Darlene is surrounded by about four guys or so, each of whom is hanging on her every syllable. Peggy, walking past, is brought up short by this, to her, disgusting scene, given that she, in her own opinion, is far more attractive than Darlene. Yet, the guys, acting as though mesmerized by Darlene, are paying her no attention at all. Finally, the whole scene just becomes too much for her and Peggy simply must speak out: "Darlene, why don't you shut up?! Your mouth is too big!" To which Darlene calmly replies, "Well, at least my mouth is not as big as that hole you're standing over." Peggy, caught off guard, looks down and about her in an attempt to find the hole. Then, she understands. Darlene has totally fronted her off, before God and everybody else! And, even more embarrassing for her, by looking around for the hole, Peggy has demonstrated that, though the front-off is aimed specifically at her physical womanhood and with specific reference to her external genitalia, she is the only person within earshot not to get that point immediately. Peggy was a close friend of mine, but I had to give Darlene her props. She kicked ass with that one. She really knew how to hurt a woman where it really hurts. Hope this helps! -Wilson Gray > > At 10:30 PM 7/23/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was >> victimized by the following word game: >> >> Q. What's your name? >> A. Putting and ta'en! >> Ask me again >> And I'll tell you the same. >> >> This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my >> mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was >> not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one >> another >> when she was a child. >> >> This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black >> children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for >> adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio >> back in the 'Sixties. >> >> So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. >> Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. >> However, >> over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed >> toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to >> write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always >> heard >> sounds something like this: >> >> Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? >> A. Putnin tane! >> Ass/ax me agin, >> I teh yuh dih same. >> >> Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? >> >> -Wilson Gray > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 24 21:14:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:14:54 EDT Subject: Negimaki or Negimayaki Message-ID: OT: I've been seeing the posts of "JL" here recently. Let me wlecome the arrive of my ex-wife "J-Lo" to this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEGIMAKI--856 Google hits, 160 Google Groups hits NEGIMAYAKI--66 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits NEGIMA-YAKI--72 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits This dish was supposed invented at New York's Nippon Restaurant in 1963, so I've added to my New York Food section at www.barrypopik.com. OED has recently revised "N' and--it's not there. It's not there?! How could it not be there? Barry Popik (well-respected OED food contributor, recently awakened from parking tickets) (WWW.BARRYPOPIK.COM) Negimaki or Negimayaki Japanese food is booming here and this is one of the early New York City classics?or is it? According to John Mariani?s Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink (1979): ? The word is from the Janaese negi (onion) plus maki (wound around). The dish, which has become popular in Japanese restaurants in the United States, was created at New York?s Nippon Restaurant in 1963 by owner Nobuyoshi Kuaoka under the prompting of New York Times restaurant critic Craig Claiborner, who thought the restaurant should have more interesting beef dishes for the American customer. Kuaoka originally called the dish ?negimayaki.?? That should solve it, but it doesn?t. A New York Times text search of ? Claiborne? and ?Nippon? doesn?t turn up anything relevant. I tried ?negimaki? and ?negimayuaki? and ?negima-yaki,? with the results below. The Los Angeles Times digitization is now through 1964, and I?m still waiting for a ? California roll? in its pages. If I see an earlier ?negimaki? or ?negimayaki,? I?ll add it here. 11 November 1963, New York Times, pg. 37: They are the Nippon at 145 East 52d Street, and the new Saito at 131 West 52d Street (...) Although sushi may seem a trifle ?far out? for many American palates, such dishes as teriyaki )steak, pork or chicken marinated in soy sauce and grilled), shiwo-yaki (pork or chicken broiled with salt and served with a soy and lemon sauce), as well as the familiar tempura and sukiyaki, have an immediate and almost universal appeal. (It?s not mentioned here?ed.) 5 December 1975, New York Times, pg. 55: Among the appetizers (we give prices of full portions here-you get smaller poritons with dinners) we had an excellent negimaki-beef wrapped around scallions with teriyaki sauce ($2.75). 23 December 1977, Valley News *Van Nuys, CA), pg. 41, col. 2: Inagiku Menu Highlights 9th Floor, Bonaventure Hotel 5th And Figueroa, Downtown Los Angeles (...) negimayaki, $2..50 (...)13 April 1979, New York TImes, pg. C18: Negima-yaki, tender beef roll-ups wrapped around scallions and broiled in a soy marinade, were lovely and firm one night, but at another time were much too soft and drowned in sauce. (Mimi Sheraton?s one-star review of Nippon, 145 East 62d Street?ed.) * * * From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 24 21:52:38 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:52:38 -0400 Subject: Giclee In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D012196C3@rdec-exch8.ds.amr dec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 03:11 AM 7/24/2004, you wrote: > "Giclee" is a word meaning "expensive inkjet print". People who sell "fine >art prints" use big inkjet printers to make them. Giclee is French for >something or other that justifies its use, but it's a fancy inkjet printer, >is all. I guess "giclee" = "squirt" or "spurt" ... seems appropriate. >... quelle grosse giclee t'a envoyee ... une giclee de tortures .... une >derniere giclee de sperme .... Fine nuances of French are beyond me, but maybe some of these items aren't related to art prints. -- Doug Wilson From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 24 22:28:13 2004 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:28:13 -0700 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <71A2DA20-DD19-11D8-A7F5-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In Lynchburg, VA, -- 50's-60's-I learned the first line as "What's MY name?" Doesn't it fit better with the third line--Ask ME again? Wilson Gray wrote:On my very first day in the first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was victimized by the following word game: Q. What's your name? A. Putting and ta'en! Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another when she was a child. This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio back in the 'Sixties. So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard sounds something like this: Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? A. Putnin tane! Ass/ax me agin, I teh yuh dih same. Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Jul 25 00:35:47 2004 From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:35:47 -0400 Subject: Ginormous In-Reply-To: <39qtpa$5qilk@ironmaiden.mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I'm 26, and many of my friends feel comfortable using "ginormous" all the time. Also keep an eye out for "ab-fab" (popularized by the British comedy), fantabulous, fabu ("fabu" is more current than "fab"), and faburrific. Vying for first place in the Most Common category with "ginormous" is "a fuckload of." The latter is not as interesting and probably not nearly as new. Also, adding -licious to pretty much anything plays well. You could add it to a name, as in Pierrelicious or Bonolicious. More common is the well-known bootylicious or other derivations from nouns, such as chocolicious. http://www.fontalicious.com/ (with a noun) http://www.soapylicious.com/ (with an adjective) http://www.dookalicious.cjb.net/ (with a name) http://madonnalicious.com/ http://www.gigaom.com/2004/07/motolicious.php (with a product name) deeviliciouz.blogspot.com/ ("Devilicious" and "fantarrific" in the same site!) http://www.faburecords.com/ http://home.nyc.rr.com/stevenjs/fabu.html http://stores.ebay.com/2-2-FaBu-Fabulous-Accessories http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fantabulous http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/showphoto.php/photo/4390 (This is the only hit I found of "faburrific" on Google, though I expect to see more soon. My age group already uses it quite a bit in conversation.) "Just a faburrific job, especially with the weathering and the repaint of the Tom Sizemore RPT head. Excellent indeed." At 06:03 AM 7/24/2004 -0700, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; > barrypopik.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by >a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past >few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. > >JL ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 00:42:53 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:42:53 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game In-Reply-To: <200407241528.1bOv0d2Uj3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: A children's punning/rhyming game > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In Lynchburg, VA, -- 50's-60's-I learned the first line as "What's MY > name?" Doesn't it fit better with the third line--Ask ME again? I know this rhyme or whatever it ought to be called as a kind of verbal practical joke. Someone asks someone else, "What's your name?" The person asked, instead of answering "John" or whatever, replies with the remaining three lines. However, I do see that, even if the person asked replied by echoing the question: "What's my name?", thereby making the response four lines long instead of three, the game would still play out as intended. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote:On my very first day in the > first grade 1942 in Saint Louis, I was > victimized by the following word game: > > Q. What's your name? > A. Putting and ta'en! > Ask me again > And I'll tell you the same. > > This struck me as so hip that I couldn't wait to get home and tell my > mother about. Unfortunately, she, born in Longview, TX, in 1914, was > not impressed, since kids were already running this game on one another > when she was a child. > > This little front-off game is so popular and well-known among black > children that it was re-written as a rhythm-&-blues dance song for > adults that was famous for fifteen minutes on black-oriented AM radio > back in the 'Sixties. > > So far, I haven't met any white people to whom this is familiar. > Ordinarily, I'd conclude that this game is only a black thing. However, > over the years, I've found it in nursery-rhyme collections directed > toward a white audience. In fact, had I not, I wouldn't know how to > write it out the first line of the answer, since what I've always heard > sounds something like this: > > Q. Whutcho name?/whussho name? > A. Putnin tane! > Ass/ax me agin, > I teh yuh dih same. > > Anyway, are any of y'all white folk out yonder familiar with this? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 01:11:32 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:11:32 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad Mother For You" by Dirty Red. In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. -Wilson Gray From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jul 25 02:54:26 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:54:26 -0700 Subject: circle jerk Message-ID: I was struck by the conclusion of Daniel Rodosh's Talk of the Town piece "The Pet Goat Approach", in the 7/26/04 New Yorker. It's an interview with Direct Instruction founder Siegfried (Zig) Engelmann (now famous as the author of the "The Pet Goat" material featured in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11"). At the end, Engelmann talks about politics: "For whatever it's worth, I think Iraq is a total circle jerk," he said. "I couldn't think of how to do it worse." Circle jerk? The classic circle jerk is a bunch (I think three is the minimum number) of adolescent boys masturbating in front of one another. (An actual circle isn't required. I think "circle" figures in the name mostly for its phonetic values: the [rk] of "jerk", in particular.) The accompanying values include: showing off in front of other males, and reinforcing each other's arousal. (Classically, this is very much a straight-guy thing, and nobody touches anybody else. It's a visual thing.) Plus the fact that it's masturbation (see other postings on this topic), that is, "worthless", unproductive activity. Then we get extensions from this in various directions: adults; standing side to side, touching; openly gay men, frankly appreciating each other; mutual masturbation; a sense of exchanging sexual favors. And metaphorical extensions from there: competitive display, egging each other on, mutual admiration, trading favors, unproductive group activity, and so on. There are a lot of different directions here, and I'm not sure which one(s) Engelmann intended. Google cites are all over the map, including the metaphorical "mutual masturbation" sense of the satirical (5), though they all seem to deprecate the activity in question: ---------- (1) http://rynemcclaren.typepad.com/blog/2004/06/a_rabid_right_c.html The Dakota Alliance seems to have hit it rather big, as we all know. Now they've reached the pinnacle: attention from a left of center blog. The results are quite strange, featuring little besides name calling: ... Now all bloggers cite or refer to other blogs they read. That isn't the issue. What gets me is that so much of what's been appearing on these rabid dog blogs lately is nothing more than "I saw what you posted, now say something about what I posted." The main variation seems to be who starts the circle jerk... --------- (2) http://billmon.org/archives/001361.html April 09, 2004 Circle Jerk Or, to use the polite Pentagon expression: "incestuous amplification." Also known as "group think."... --------- (3) http://www.justagwailo.com/filter/2003/08/21/big-global-circle-jerk August 21st, 2003 Big Global Circle Jerk chunshek: I?m telling you. This thing called the Web? it?s all a big global circle jerk. sillygwailo: no, that?s just weblogs. -------- (4) http://zdnet.com.com/5208-1104-0.html? forumID=1&threadID=2278&messageID=48111&start=-35 Big Circle Jerk The lack of cooperation (or should I say the abundance of competitiveness) and the finger pointing on this topic are typical of this industry. If cooperation doesn't exist on critical issues between the parties concerned, there's an opportunity to be an 'industry leader'. (There, that should satisfy the marketeers, mousketeers, and assorted corporate gerbils.) -------- (5) http://www.datelinehollywood.com/showarticle.php?articleID=150 SAG AWARDS END IN MASS CIRCLE JERK Actors finish orgy of self-congratulation with actual orgy HOLLYWOOD ? In a remarkable moment that didn?t make TNT?s telecast of the event, Sunday night?s Screen Actors Guild awards ended with a massive circle jerk in which nearly every major Hollywood star manually stimulated another Hollywood star, bringing them to orgasm while whispering in the other?s ear how talented they are and that they truly deserve to win an Academy Award. From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sun Jul 25 03:46:07 2004 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:46:07 -0700 Subject: circle jerk Message-ID: HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. Tom Dalzell Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > I was struck by the conclusion of Daniel Rodosh's Talk of the Town > piece "The Pet Goat Approach", in the 7/26/04 New Yorker. It's an > interview with Direct Instruction founder Siegfried (Zig) Engelmann > (now famous as the author of the "The Pet Goat" material featured in > Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11"). At the end, Engelmann talks about > politics: > > "For whatever it's worth, I think Iraq is a total circle jerk," he > said. "I couldn't think of how to do it worse." > > Circle jerk? The classic circle jerk is a bunch (I think three is the > minimum number) of adolescent boys masturbating in front of one > another. (An actual circle isn't required. I think "circle" figures > in the name mostly for its phonetic values: the [rk] of "jerk", in > particular.) The accompanying values include: showing off in front of > other males, and reinforcing each other's arousal. (Classically, this > is very much a straight-guy thing, and nobody touches anybody else. > It's a visual thing.) Plus the fact that it's masturbation (see other > postings on this topic), that is, "worthless", unproductive activity. > > Then we get extensions from this in various directions: adults; > standing side to side, touching; openly gay men, frankly appreciating > each other; mutual masturbation; a sense of exchanging sexual favors. > And metaphorical extensions from there: competitive display, egging > each other on, mutual admiration, trading favors, unproductive group > activity, and so on. > > There are a lot of different directions here, and I'm not sure which > one(s) Engelmann intended. Google cites are all over the map, > including the metaphorical "mutual masturbation" sense of the satirical > (5), though they all seem to deprecate the activity in question: > > ---------- > > (1) http://rynemcclaren.typepad.com/blog/2004/06/a_rabid_right_c.html > > The Dakota Alliance seems to have hit it rather big, as we all know. > Now they've reached the pinnacle: attention from a left of center blog. > > The results are quite strange, featuring little besides name calling: > > ... Now all bloggers cite or refer to other blogs they read. That isn't > the issue. What gets me is that so much of what's been appearing on > these rabid dog blogs lately is nothing more than "I saw what you > posted, now say something about what I posted." The main variation > seems to be who starts the circle jerk... > > --------- > > (2) http://billmon.org/archives/001361.html > > April 09, 2004 > Circle Jerk > > Or, to use the polite Pentagon expression: "incestuous amplification." > Also known as "group think."... > > --------- > > (3) http://www.justagwailo.com/filter/2003/08/21/big-global-circle-jerk > > August 21st, 2003 > Big Global Circle Jerk > > chunshek: I?m telling you. This thing called the Web? it?s all a big > global circle jerk. > sillygwailo: no, that?s just weblogs. > > -------- > > (4) > http://zdnet.com.com/5208-1104-0.html? > forumID=1&threadID=2278&messageID=48111&start=-35 > > Big Circle Jerk > > The lack of cooperation (or should I say the abundance of > competitiveness) and the finger pointing on this topic are typical of > this industry. If cooperation doesn't exist on critical issues between > the parties concerned, there's an opportunity to be an 'industry > leader'. (There, that should satisfy the marketeers, mousketeers, and > assorted corporate gerbils.) > > -------- > > (5) http://www.datelinehollywood.com/showarticle.php?articleID=150 > > SAG AWARDS END IN MASS CIRCLE JERK > > Actors finish orgy of self-congratulation with actual orgy > > HOLLYWOOD ? In a remarkable moment that didn?t make TNT?s telecast of > the event, Sunday night?s Screen Actors Guild awards ended with a > massive circle jerk in which nearly every major Hollywood star manually > stimulated another Hollywood star, bringing them to orgasm while > whispering in the other?s ear how talented they are and that they truly > deserve to win an Academy Award. > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 25 04:07:26 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:07:26 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <275C4E48-DD96-11D8-ADF3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: The mouse >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning >>picking things up off the floor, mainly. >> >>JL > >Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for >Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. > >-Wilson Gray > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it from someone earlier? larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 25 04:02:15 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:02:15 -0400 Subject: circle jerk In-Reply-To: <41032CFF.5010208@pacbell.net> Message-ID: >HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything >earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. I think this is about like "cluster f*ck" (literally "orgy" I suppose), "goat f*ck", "pooch screw", etc. Instead of getting their job done, the participants are engaged in undisciplined, undignified, useless activity: e.g., metaphorically, group sex or sex with animals. That's how I picture it anyway. These all seem sort of military, I think. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 25 04:53:51 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:53:51 -0700 Subject: circle jerk In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040724234754.02f386a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Douglas G. Wilson > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:02 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: circle jerk > > > >HDAS has circle jerk as a mess since 1973. I don't have anything > >earlier, but it is fairly common in this sense. > > I think this is about like "cluster f*ck" (literally "orgy" I suppose), > "goat f*ck", "pooch screw", etc. > > Instead of getting their job done, the participants are engaged in > undisciplined, undignified, useless activity: e.g., metaphorically, group > sex or sex with animals. That's how I picture it anyway. These all seem > sort of military, I think. But this is a slightly different sense than cited by Mr. Zwicky. His cites used the term to mean a session of mutual admiration. Even the citations relating to the mess in Iraq are in the context of neocons convincing each other that their ideas were correct. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 25 05:38:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:38:57 -0400 Subject: The mouse In-Reply-To: <200407242116.1bOAqT4gY3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: Beats the shit outta me, Lar. I know it from a Blind Lemon Jefferson recording. Actually, it's a line favored by several Texas bluesmen. But I have no idea as to whether any of them proceeded or followed Jimmie Rodgers. I restrict myself to the Texas-Louisiana-Mississippi axis, with very few exceptions, just as a matter of preference. We Texans, regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, are as chauvinistic about our state as we're reputed to be. [Please don't forget that Dubyuh is a native of *Connecticut* and NOT of Texas!] "Well, I've been to Dallas and I've been to San Antone, but there's a place called Marshall where I'm better known." - Floyd Dixon: Marshall, Texas, Is My Home. -Wilson On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: The mouse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The mouse >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning >>> picking things up off the floor, mainly. >>> >>> JL >> >> Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for >> Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for > Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it > from someone earlier? > > larry > From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Jul 25 06:53:03 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:53:03 -0400 Subject: A children's punning/rhyming game Message-ID: <> Yes. My father (b. 1920, Pittsburgh; grew up in Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and various PA towns) used to recite "What's your name/Pudding and tain. . . ." to his children in the '50s. I've also heard one of my aunts say it. Their father, by the way, was from Baltimore and their mother from Minnesota. I have a vague recollection of a British Isles folk song that uses "ask me again and I'll tell you the same". But perhaps I'm thinking of the similar recursion of "Ask me no questions/I'll tell you no lies", and "Bread and butter on the shelf/If you want any more, you can sing it yourself". Se?n Fitzpatrick It's a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From mercedes.durham at UNIFR.CH Sun Jul 25 12:24:24 2004 From: mercedes.durham at UNIFR.CH (DURHAM Mercedes) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:24:24 +0200 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: My guess would be that the mouse comes from French - where the tooth fairy is called 'la petite souris'. Mercedes Durham English Linguistics University of Fribourg Switzerland Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:28:14 -0500 From: Janis Vizier Nihart Subject: The mouse I have a website of Cajun and regional words. I am trying to sort = through some words and expressions that I thought were just used down = here, but I would like to hear from others who may be familiar with the = expressions and who may know the origin. Here goes: The mouse---Although this is no longer used, I was always told that a = tooth mouse, not a tooth fairy, took my teeth and left money. From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jul 25 13:56:44 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:56:44 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <90FF52DB-DDD7-11D8-ADF3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sat Jul 24 22:09:48 2004 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:09:48 -0400 Subject: Acme--two syllables or three? :) Message-ID: And reel-uh-tor for reel-tor Bob You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into --- Jonathon Swift People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts---Sen. Dan Moynihan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Coye" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Acme--two syllables or three? :) > I've never heard ACK uh mee before, but it's a agreat example of a sound > change called epenthesis. Other examples would be ath-uh-lete or ath-uh-let-ic > (never heard anyone say this either, but theres a famous Ring Lardner story, I > believe it's "You can look it up" where the narrator refers to the > Philadelphia Ath-uh-letics. Another example is el-um for elm, fil-um for film which some > dialects use. > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 15:31:51 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Go get 'em, Jesse! Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would have been in boldface. The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 16:02:50 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:02:50 -0700 Subject: Ginormous Message-ID: Thanks, Carolina. I have one "fabu / faboo" only and no "faburiffics." Your note is most helpful. JL Carolina Jimenez-Marcos wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Carolina Jimenez-Marcos Subject: Re: Ginormous ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm 26, and many of my friends feel comfortable using "ginormous" all the time. Also keep an eye out for "ab-fab" (popularized by the British comedy), fantabulous, fabu ("fabu" is more current than "fab"), and faburrific. Vying for first place in the Most Common category with "ginormous" is "a fuckload of." The latter is not as interesting and probably not nearly as new. Also, adding -licious to pretty much anything plays well. You could add it to a name, as in Pierrelicious or Bonolicious. More common is the well-known bootylicious or other derivations from nouns, such as chocolicious. http://www.fontalicious.com/ (with a noun) http://www.soapylicious.com/ (with an adjective) http://www.dookalicious.cjb.net/ (with a name) http://madonnalicious.com/ http://www.gigaom.com/2004/07/motolicious.php (with a product name) deeviliciouz.blogspot.com/ ("Devilicious" and "fantarrific" in the same site!) http://www.faburecords.com/ http://home.nyc.rr.com/stevenjs/fabu.html http://stores.ebay.com/2-2-FaBu-Fabulous-Accessories http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fantabulous http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/showphoto.php/photo/4390 (This is the only hit I found of "faburrific" on Google, though I expect to see more soon. My age group already uses it quite a bit in conversation.) "Just a faburrific job, especially with the weathering and the repaint of the Tom Sizemore RPT head. Excellent indeed." At 06:03 AM 7/24/2004 -0700, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Stay Classy & Ginormous; Giclee; Eating Your Words; > barrypopik.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'd have included "ginormous" in HDAS but had only one US cite, spoken by >a college student in 1972. I have picked up one or two more in the past >few years. Thanks for reminding me of this word. > >JL ************************************************************* "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." --Rev. Pat Robertson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 16:11:04 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:11:04 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad Mother For You" by Dirty Red. In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jul 25 16:30:37 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:30:37 -0400 Subject: JASSM Message-ID: Not-so-curious acronym for a missile: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040527/dath024_1.html "Lockheed Martin and members of the Department of Defense celebrated the expansion of the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM) production facility today at its Pike County Operations in Troy, AL. The expansion allows JASSM production to increase to a rate of 40 missiles per month." Grant Barrett -- Grant Barrett Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang" (2004) Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester http://www.doubletongued.org/ Webmaster, American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org/ From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 25 16:47:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:47:47 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <20040725161104.19840.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act like/as the X"? E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play possum". And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: "cut the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to show some examples. Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and "play" can? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 25 20:13:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:13:56 EDT Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") Message-ID: "BROOKLYN SIDE" & BIG APPLE WEB SITE For some reason, I'm doing a New York City web site for a city has never been the least bit kind to me. Three years' work of mine is in the old ADS-L archives, that is no longer available to anyone. It's my first web site, and I'm working with codes that I wasn't even taught yet. It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A Google for "Barry Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's still behind such things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is "The Straight Dope." Gerald Cohen, Language Log, and Language Hat have commented to others how "disorganized" the site is, how I "hide my light under a series of bushels," and the latter two have told people to avoid the site entirely and go to the short summary of my work on "The Straight Dope." Thanks. Why even try? Someone wrote into Language Log with John Ciardi's old "manzana principal, New Orleans jazzman, 1910" theory. I said again that there is not one piece of evidence for this in some fifty million digitized pages (newspapers and magazines) that we know. A 20-year-old Ciardi book should not be consulted. It's like saying, screw Lighter and Green on slang, I have my H. L. Mencken, and he's tops. "Manzana principal" has nothing to do with "the Big Apple" and should not be mentioned anymore, but no one believes me. Anyway, I'm adding "Brooklyn side" to the site. Lighter and DARE are silent. Sam Clements found a "10 Jan. 1911 _Decatur (IL) Reveiw_" article, but it appears that this is actually from 13 January 1911. The 1917 Washington Post story is also interesting for the term "Brooklyn side." 13 January 1913, Decatur (IL) Review, pg. 4, cols. 1-2: HIT 'EM ON "BROOKLYN SIDE" AND YOU WIN AT BOWLING St. Louis, Jan. 13.--Do you tenpin? Of course--you have to, to be in style, for the next month. It's quite Country CLubby, you know. If you doubt, drift into the Middgy club's lounging place and see the Silk Stocking Seven at work. INSIDE TALK But supposing that you do bowl--bowl at times when it's not just the fad. Suppose you're a regular. Do you know what is meant by the "Brooklyn side"? And if you are so close to the inner circle of the game that you happen to have heard the expression, do you know its origin? HEAVY BET. It's a grape fruit to a grape seed you don't. Here's the story--it's told by H. W. Harrington, now of St. Louis, formerly a member of the champion Chicago team, which beat the New York cracks back in the dim days before the American Bowling congress was a de facto organization. That is to say, just twelve years ago. AT ST/. LOUIS. Harrington and one of his teammates on the five that made the memorable trip to New York from the Windy City in 1899, W. V. THompson, will bowl an exhibition match as one of the features of the national championship tournament, which will open here Jan. 21. Here's Mr. Harrington's tale: HIS STORY. "The alleys were not alltogether at their best. THey had been bowled on a good deal and there were spots where the bowler would be favored, if he could only search them out. To this end Brill had been studying the boards during the match. The alleys were located downtown near the river and so disposed that the left-hand side of the runway was toward Brooklyn. GAVE HIM TIP. "Thompson walked up to shoot his first ball and Brill could see from his stand that he was going after the "one-three" break. This means hitting on the right hand-side of the head pin. Brill had observed some ugly "splits" resulted from this play. As Thompson was about to make his shot Brill shouted out: "Not that way, not that way--try the 'Brooklyn side!': Thompson halted in his delivery when Brill went over and explained. "All the good breaks are coming on the left side of the head pin. Play for the one-two, instead of the one-three break." WON THE MATCH. "Thompson did and struck the game out, winning the match by ten pins majority. "Among the bowlers the 'one-three' break, using a hook ball, is considered safest to give best results, especially on new alleys. But whenever they find that the alleys are not "grooved" to suit their particular style of bowling they always try the 'Brooklyn side.' "The name still clings." 9 January 1917, Mansfield (Ohio) News, pg. 12, col. 2: Left-handed bowlers start their deliveries on the left-handed corner, but shoot for the 1-2 or "Brooklyn," instead of the "New York," ar right-handers do. Only when a bowler fails to get pins on a 1-3 hit, does he cross over to the 1-2 or "Brooklyn" side. It all depends on the alley. 22 April 1917, Washington Post, pg. S2: EQUAL ON TENPIN BASIS Same Results Possible on "Brooklyn" as "New York" side" A 1-3 hit in tenpins is called "the New York," while when a pin-toppler hits them on the other side of the 1-2 it is termed a "Brooklyn" The terms originated many years ago in New York in a famous match, when one of the men bowling found that he could get plus equally as well by hitting the 1-2 as the 1-3. The alleys on which the above match was rolled ran parallel with the river. The 1-2 side of the pine faced toward the river or Brooklyn side, and the 1-3 inland or to New York. 3 June 1958, New York Times, pg. 40: ...I hit the Brooklyn side (between the 1 and 2 pins)... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made a single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire pathetic life. (CHARLOTTE OBSERVER) Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog RON GREEN SR. Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's hoist a jar of mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half the night to circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on TV -- you know the type. It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat, because, well, darn it, we love 'em. It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball game without eating a hot dog. There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks. That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We eat billions every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name hot dog. On a cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out to buy up all the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obvious reasons) and rolls they could find. In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands, probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund so he called them hot dogs. Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few clich?s and a sizeable thirst. (FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! A Summer Taste Test By Matthew Goodman July 23, 2004 There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the 1970s, thanks to, of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial ? for those of you who threw out your televisions in the 1960s ? a man dressed as Uncle Sam stands holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced narrator recites some of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American government allows to be put in frankfurters. "We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to where the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebrew National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, and made them a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food ? not always correctly ? as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher buyers are not even Jewish. Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the Brooklyn, N.Y., seaside community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the beach, found that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to be sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business, Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donovan) to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltman began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages in a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so successful that within the decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast food complex, turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many as 1,200 waiters. However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up a stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling competing hot dogs. (The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his hot-dog stand after himself, calling it ? need I even say this? ? Nathan's Famous. At Nathan's hot dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages before them, were made from beef rather than pork. (ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) Hot dog vendors on a roll Carts let people know when summertime is really here Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN News Staff Reporter (...) Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Polo Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spell "dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of the story. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jul 25 22:03:51 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:03:51 -0500 Subject: Errant journalistic treatments of "hot dog" Message-ID: The journalistic items reproduced below by Barry have no more significance than a pimple on an elephant's behind. The important developments are the "hot-dog" book I'm presently compiling (authors: Popik, Shulman, Cohen) and Becky Mercuri's "hot dog" book (in progress), both of which give due credit to Barry for his extraordinary research. Bruce Kraig also has an article in the works, and in several e-mails he shows he is well aware of Barry's research and the falsity of the Dorgan/Stevens/Polo Ground story. As for Barry's website, it's a major undertaking, and several ads-l members have already congratulated him for starting it. I now join them in this. Gerald Cohen At 4:13 PM -0400 7/25/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH > This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. > >It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made a >single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire pathetic >life. > > >(CHARLOTTE OBSERVER) >Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 >At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog > > >RON GREEN SR. > > >Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or >never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's >hoist a jar of >mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. > >The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down >to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate >end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half >the night to >circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on TV >-- you know the type. > >It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat, >because, well, darn it, we love 'em. > >It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball >game without eating a hot dog. > >There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks. >That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We >eat billions >every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. > >We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a >sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name >hot dog. On a >cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little >business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out >to buy up all >the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obvious >reasons) and rolls they could find. > >In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands, >probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" > >The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an >idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund >sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund >so he called >them hot dogs. > >Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have >never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few >clich?s and a sizeable thirst. > > > >(FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) >THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! >A Summer Taste Test >By Matthew Goodman >July 23, 2004 >There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher >frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the >1970s, thanks to, >of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial - for those of you who >threw out your televisions in the 1960s - a man dressed as Uncle Sam stands >holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced >narrator recites some >of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American >government allows to >be put in frankfurters. > >"We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows >increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to where >the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term >Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebrew >National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." > >This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never >had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, >and made them >a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as >the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food - not always >correctly - as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher >buyers are not >even Jewish. > >Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle >Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a >frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the >Brooklyn, N.Y., seaside >community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who >earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the >beach, found >that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to be >sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business, >Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donovan) >to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltman >began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages in >a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter >sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so >successful that within the >decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous >Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast >food complex, >turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many as >1,200 waiters. > >However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own >undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up a >stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling >competing hot dogs. >(The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago >cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a >frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his >hot-dog stand after >himself, calling it - need I even say this? - Nathan's Famous. At Nathan's hot >dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the >street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more >significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages >before them, were >made from beef rather than pork. > > >(ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) >Hot dog vendors on a roll > >Carts let people know when summertime is really here > >Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN > >News Staff Reporter >(...) >Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their >name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Polo >Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red >hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spell >"dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of the >story. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 22:21:12 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:21:12 -0700 Subject: New simile Message-ID: Am posting this now rather than allowing myself to forget. A news reporter on Fox (sorry, guys) observed yesterday that security for the convention in Boston is, "as a friend of mine used to say, 'tight as two coats of paint on a bowling pin.'" JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 25 22:40:34 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:40:34 -0700 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") Message-ID: Barry, Just checked out your new site and it rox. Realize that the media are not interested in FACTS about word origins; they're interested in STORIES with a beginning middle, and end. The FACTS about Big Apple - and I tried to get as many of them into HDAS Vol. I as I could (nod to Gerry Cohen goes here) - end in uncertainty: "Well, which of those guys in N.O. REALLY invented it then? (Am paraphrasing, of course.) Next time someone discovers an ex. of the insignificant collocation "big apple" ANYWHERE before 1909 expect a new wave of interest: "WOW, a NEW clue!" Gotta go. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "BROOKLYN SIDE" & BIG APPLE WEB SITE =20 For some reason, I'm doing a New York City web site for a city has never bee= n=20 the least bit kind to me. Three years' work of mine is in the old ADS-L=20 archives, that is no longer available to anyone. It's my first web site, and= I'm=20 working with codes that I wasn't even taught yet. =20 It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist=20 mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A Google for "Bar= ry=20 Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's still behind su= ch=20 things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is "The Straig= ht=20 Dope." =20 Gerald Cohen, Language Log, and Language Hat have commented to others how=20 "disorganized" the site is, how I "hide my light under a series of bushels,"= and=20 the latter two have told people to avoid the site entirely and go to the sho= rt=20 summary of my work on "The Straight Dope." Thanks. Why even try? =20 Someone wrote into Language Log with John Ciardi's old "manzana principal,=20 New Orleans jazzman, 1910" theory. I said again that there is not one piece=20= of=20 evidence for this in some fifty million digitized pages (newspapers and=20 magazines) that we know. A 20-year-old Ciardi book should not be consulted.=20= It's like=20 saying, screw Lighter and Green on slang, I have my H. L. Mencken, and he's=20 tops. "Manzana principal" has nothing to do with "the Big Apple" and should=20= not=20 be mentioned anymore, but no one believes me. =20 Anyway, I'm adding "Brooklyn side" to the site. Lighter and DARE are silent.= =20 Sam Clements found a "10 Jan. 1911 _Decatur (IL) Reveiw_" article, but it=20 appears that this is actually from 13 January 1911. The 1917 Washington Post= story=20 is also interesting for the term "Brooklyn side." =20 =20 13 January 1913, Decatur (IL) Review, pg. 4, cols. 1-2: HIT 'EM ON "BROOKLYN SIDE" AND YOU WIN AT BOWLING St. Louis, Jan. 13.--Do you tenpin? Of course--you have to, to be in style,=20 for the next month. It's quite Country CLubby, you know. If you doubt, drift= =20 into the Middgy club's lounging place and see the Silk Stocking Seven at wor= k. =20 INSIDE TALK =20 But supposing that you do bowl--bowl at times when it's not just the fad.=20 Suppose you're a regular. Do you know what is meant by the "Brooklyn side"?=20= And=20 if you are so close to the inner circle of the game that you happen to have=20 heard the expression, do you know its origin? =20 HEAVY BET. =20 It's a grape fruit to a grape seed you don't. =20 Here's the story--it's told by H. W. Harrington, now of St. Louis, formerly=20= a=20 member of the champion Chicago team, which beat the New York cracks back in=20 the dim days before the American Bowling congress was a de facto organizatio= n.=20 That is to say, just twelve years ago. =20 AT ST/. LOUIS. =20 Harrington and one of his teammates on the five that made the memorable trip= =20 to New York from the Windy City in 1899, W. V. THompson, will bowl an=20 exhibition match as one of the features of the national championship tournam= ent, which=20 will open here Jan. 21. Here's Mr. Harrington's tale: =20 HIS STORY.=20 =20 "The alleys were not alltogether at their best. THey had been bowled on a=20 good deal and there were spots where the bowler would be favored, if he coul= d=20 only search them out. To this end Brill had been studying the boards during=20= the=20 match. The alleys were located downtown near the river and so disposed that=20= the=20 left-hand side of the runway was toward Brooklyn. =20 GAVE HIM TIP. =20 "Thompson walked up to shoot his first ball and Brill could see from his=20 stand that he was going after the "one-three" break. This means hitting on t= he=20 right hand-side of the head pin. Brill had observed some ugly "splits" resul= ted=20 from this play. As Thompson was about to make his shot Brill shouted out: =20 "Not that way, not that way--try the 'Brooklyn side!': =20 Thompson halted in his delivery when Brill went over and explained. =20 "All the good breaks are coming on the left side of the head pin. Play for=20 the one-two, instead of the one-three break." =20 WON THE MATCH. =20 "Thompson did and struck the game out, winning the match by ten pins=20 majority. =20 "Among the bowlers the 'one-three' break, using a hook ball, is considered=20 safest to give best results, especially on new alleys. But whenever they fin= d=20 that the alleys are not "grooved" to suit their particular style of bowling=20= they=20 always try the 'Brooklyn side.' =20 "The name still clings." =20 =20 9 January 1917, Mansfield (Ohio) News, pg. 12, col. 2: Left-handed bowlers start their deliveries on the left-handed corner, but=20 shoot for the 1-2 or "Brooklyn," instead of the "New York," ar right-handers= do. =20 Only when a bowler fails to get pins on a 1-3 hit, does he cross over to the= =20 1-2 or "Brooklyn" side. It all depends on the alley. =20 =20 22 April 1917, Washington Post, pg. S2: EQUAL ON TENPIN BASIS Same Results Possible on "Brooklyn" as "New York" side" =20 A 1-3 hit in tenpins is called "the New York," while when a pin-toppler hits= =20 them on the other side of the 1-2 it is termed a "Brooklyn" =20 The terms originated many years ago in New York in a famous match, when one=20 of the men bowling found that he could get plus equally as well by hitting t= he=20 1-2 as the 1-3. =20 The alleys on which the above match was rolled ran parallel with the river.=20 The 1-2 side of the pine faced toward the river or Brooklyn side, and the 1-= 3=20 inland or to New York. =20 =20 3 June 1958, New York Times, pg. 40: ...I hit the Brooklyn side (between the 1 and 2 pins)... =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- -------------------------------------------- JULY IS THE CRUELEST MONTH =20 This week, from your Google News.Three wrong articles. =20 It's been nine years since I did my work on "hot dog." My name has not made=20= a=20 single one of these newspaper articles. This will continue my entire patheti= c=20 life. =20 =20 (CHARLOTTE OBSERVER)=20 Posted on Mon, Jul. 19, 2004 =20 At home or at the game, just relish the hot dog RON GREEN SR. Here's a heads-up for you, in case you had forgotten, or never known, or=20 never really cared -- Wednesday is National Hot Dog Day, so let's hoist a ja= r of=20 mustard to all hot dogs, living and dead. The dead ones we eat, especially at sports events, from baseball games down=20 to catching lightning bugs. The living hot dogs are the ones who orchestrate= =20 end zone celebrations, shake their heads after they dunk, take half the nigh= t to=20 circle the bases after hitting a home run, yell "Go in the hole" to get on T= V=20 -- you know the type. It is the dead hot dogs we actually salute today, though, the ones we eat,=20 because, well, darn it, we love 'em. It is a little known scientific fact that a person cannot attend a baseball=20 game without eating a hot dog. There are 26 million hot dogs consumed each year in major league ballparks.=20 That is, of course, only a small percentage of dogs we consume. We eat billi= ons=20 every year. We eat 60 per person per year in the United States. We in the newspaper profession are proud to note that one of our own, a=20 sports cartoonist working for a New York newspaper, coined the name hot dog.= On a=20 cold day in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, the concessionaire was doing little=20 business with his ice cream and cold sodas. He sent his salesmen out to buy=20= up all=20 the dachshund sausages (that's what they were called at the time, for obviou= s=20 reasons) and rolls they could find. In less than an hour, vendors were hawking dachshund sausages in the stands,= =20 probably yelling, "Red hot! Get yer red hot dachshund sausages right heah!" The cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, felt his deadline approaching fast. He needed an= =20 idea. When he heard the vendors, he drew a cartoon of barking dachshund=20 sausages nestled in the rolls. He didn't know how to spell dachshund so he c= alled=20 them hot dogs. Thanks to Tad Dorgan, it cannot be said that the guys in the press box have=20 never contributed anything better to society than the rumpled look, a few=20 clich=C3=A9s and a sizeable thirst. =20 =20 (FORWARD, July 23, 2004) (formerly, JEWISH DAILY FORWARD--ed.) THE FOOD MAVEN: Good Dog! A Summer Taste Test By Matthew Goodman July 23, 2004 There's no way to know this for sure, but I would suggest that kosher=20 frankfurters first entered the wider American consciousness in the 1970s, th= anks to,=20 of all things, a TV commercial. In this commercial =E2=80=94 for those of yo= u who=20 threw out your televisions in the 1960s =E2=80=94 a man dressed as Uncle Sam= stands=20 holding a hot dog in front of him, while a stentorian-voiced narrator recite= s some=20 of the additives (nonmeat fillers, etc.) that the American government allows= to=20 be put in frankfurters. =20 "We don't," intones the narrator after each item, as Uncle Sam's smile grows= =20 increasingly forced. Cue the heavenly choir; Uncle Sam gazes upward, to wher= e=20 the sun is breaking through the clouds. Proclaims the narrator (the term=20 Omniscient Narrator would not be inappropriate here): 'We can't. We're Hebre= w=20 National, and we answer to a Higher Authority." =20 This prodigious bit of marketing jiujitsu took the kosher laws, which never=20 had mattered to more than a very small segment of the population, and made t= hem=20 a selling point for the population at large. We even might look to this as=20 the moment when many Americans first began to view kosher food =E2=80=94 not= always=20 correctly =E2=80=94 as healthy food, such that today the majority of kosher=20= buyers are not=20 even Jewish.=20 =20 Of course, kosher frankfurters had been around for a long time before Uncle=20 Sam ever held up one to the camera. The first recorded appearance of a=20 frankfurter of any kind on American shores was in 1867, in the Brooklyn, N.Y= ., seaside=20 community of Coney Island. A German immigrant named Charles Feltman, who=20 earned his trade selling pies from a wagon that he pushed along the beach, f= ound=20 that many of his customers were asking for hot sandwiches, as had begun to b= e=20 sold in the restaurants along the boardwalk. Fearing a drop-off in business,= =20 Feltman hired a mechanic (the annals of food history know him only as Donova= n)=20 to construct a charcoal stove on the back of his wagon. Thus equipped, Feltm= an=20 began plying hot sausages to the local beachgoers; he wrapped the sausages i= n=20 a bun, in the German fashion, and called his creation, "Frankfurter=20 sandwiches," after his hometown. Feltman's gambit proved so successful that=20= within the=20 decade he had opened his own restaurant on the boardwalk, the eponymous=20 Feltman's, which by the turn of the century had grown into a vast food compl= ex,=20 turning out frankfurters from seven grills, delivered to patrons by as many=20= as=20 1,200 waiters.=20 =20 However, eventually Feltman's ingenuity would spawn the seeds of his own=20 undoing. In 1915, a former employee of Feltman's, Nathan Handwerker, set up=20= a=20 stand across the street from the restaurant and began selling competing hot=20= dogs.=20 (The term "hot dog" had been coined nine years earlier, after the Chicago=20 cartoonist T.A. "Tad" Dorgan drew a cartoon showing a dachshund inside a=20 frankfurter bun.) Like Feltman before him, Handwerker named his hot-dog stan= d after=20 himself, calling it =E2=80=94 need I even say this? =E2=80=94 Nathan's Famou= s. At Nathan's hot=20 dogs cost only a nickel, half of the price that was being charged across the= =20 street. But they differed from those of Feltman's in at least one more=20 significant respect: Nathan's frankfurters, like all Jewish sausages before=20= them, were=20 made from beef rather than pork.=20 (ANN ARBOR NEWS, July 23, 2004) Hot dog vendors on a roll=20 Carts let people know when summertime is really here=20 Friday, 23, 2004BY STEPHENIE KOEHN=20 News Staff Reporter =20 (...) Hot dogs, originally known as "hot dachshund sausages," reportedly got their= =20 name in 1901 from sports cartoonist Tad Dorgan, who heard vendors at the Pol= o=20 Grounds in New York yelling, "Get your dachshund sausages while they're red=20 hot!" He sketched a cartoon depicting the scene, but wasn't sure how to spel= l=20 "dachshund," so he called them, "hot dogs." At least that's one version of t= he=20 story. =20 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 25 23:07:35 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:07:35 -0700 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") In-Reply-To: <15b.3ab15055.2e356e84@aol.com> Message-ID: > It's been up a few days and got major hits on Friday, after a Gothamist > mention. Despite that, it's way down on the Google charts. A > Google for "Barry > Popik" turns up www.barrypopik.com about hit number 80. It's > still behind such > things as "Class Brain." The number one hit for "Barry Popik" is > "The Straight > Dope." Barry, you have to give other sites time to create links to it. Google's rankings are largely based on how many sites link to yours, and more importantly, the popularity of the sites that link to yours. I just created a link from my site to yours yesterday. As sites like mine link to yours, your ranking will go up. (It'll be tough to top "The Straight Dope" though.) --Dave Wilton dave at wordorigins.org http://www.wordorigins.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 00:51:50 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: down the middle or across In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040722152352.01d62a00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: We always cut them vertically (and I still do), giving two symetric (more or less) halves with equal amounts of crust. --- Beverly Flanigan wrote: > No, no--we always cut sandwiches horizontally when I > was a kid! But when I > got older, I learned it was more "proper" to cut > diagonally (I never called > that "across"). > > At 03:01 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >Cutting the sandwich across would definitely mean > cutting it diagonally. > >And, fwiw, cutting it through the *other* > (horizontal) middle seems very very > >freaky to me. I would not eat that sandwich. And > I have no words to describe > >how such a sandwich is cut. Just.... wrong. > > > >-dsb > >Douglas S. Bigham > >Department of Linguistics > >University of Texas - Austin > >http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 02:19:30 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:19:30 -0400 Subject: Brooklyn Side (1911); July Is the Cruelest Month (for "hot dog") In-Reply-To: <20040725224034.86219.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:40 PM -0700 7/25/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Barry, > >Just checked out your new site and it rox. Realize that the media >are not interested in FACTS about word origins; they're interested >in STORIES with a beginning middle, and end. The FACTS about Big >Apple - and I tried to get as many of them into HDAS Vol. I as I >could (nod to Gerry Cohen goes here) - end in uncertainty: "Well, >which of those guys in N.O. REALLY invented it then? (Am >paraphrasing, of course.) Very true, and very much along the lines of the pursuit of the first "baseball game", which as we've seen (i) overlaps with the quest for antedates for "baseball" or "base ball" as a lexical item and (ii) probably won't ever be known absolutely, given the family resemblances (as Wittgenstein would call them) among various games. So, as we've discussed not long ago, the press fell all over itself recently (in May, IIRC) about the 1791 Pittsfield document that includes a reference to "base ball", without bothering to check on whether it's the same (or similar enough) referent to "THE" game of baseball, very much along the lines of Jonathan's observation here... > >Next time someone discovers an ex. of the insignificant collocation >"big apple" ANYWHERE before 1909 expect a new wave of interest: >"WOW, a NEW clue!" > On the other hand, the Pittsfield push-back does make for a more informed narrative about the origins of our pastime than the standard Cooperstown/Doubleday alternative, which Stephen Jay Gould picked apart. Gould detailed in a number of places the fact how our love for narratives/stories leads us astray in science and elsewhere, and I've tried to argue (in my Spitten Image paper, in re "Welsh rarebit" et al.) that his points on narrative bias carry over directly to the realm of etymythology (as they do to non-lexical urban legends). larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 26 03:18:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:18:44 EDT Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) Message-ID: Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much credit. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) IN DARKEST NEW YORK.; Dreadful Places and Dreadful Things in the American Metropolis. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 24, 1890. p. 5 (1 page) : _The Churchman:_ (...) We must pass over his description of Jewtown and its sweat-shops, in which miserable Jews spend eighteen hours a day at slop-work for the clothing manufacturers, and from which clothing is often sent out leaded with the infection of small-pox and typhus. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jul 26 03:22:35 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:22:35 -0400 Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) Message-ID: >Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) > Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February > 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much > credit. So, I should take back the letter I just sent to the Straight Dope, asking them to provide a live link to your site? :) SC From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 26 03:39:48 2004 From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:39:48 -0700 Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) In-Reply-To: <200407260318.i6Q3Iq9K032695@mxe2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Interesting, isn't it, that the threat of small pox was attached to the shirtwaists produced in these shops. If it had been there, the epidemics would have really made the news! Wasn't it smallpox on blankets that decimated Western Native American villages? Says so, at least, in the Canadian Provincial Museum at Victoria, BC. TB was certainly prevalent in the sweatshops, as was "white lung." Similar to coal miner's "black lung," "white lung" (I think the medical term for it is bissinosis) was the result of inhaling small cotton fibers thrown off by the sewing machines. Also found in the weaving and knitting factories at Lawrence, Massachusetts -- another set of immigrants, if I'm not mistaken. Immigrants always were great scapegoats for disease -- consider the French disease (England), which the French called the English Disease! Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Sweat Shop (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sam Clements found an earlier "sweat shop" than I'd posted, from February > 1891. I'm doing a New York web page and I'm trying not to give him too much > credit. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > IN DARKEST NEW YORK.; Dreadful Places and Dreadful Things in the American > Metropolis. > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 24, 1890. p. 5 (1 page) > : > _The Churchman:_ (...) > We must pass over his description of Jewtown and its sweat-shops, in which > miserable Jews spend eighteen hours a day at slop-work for the clothing > manufacturers, and from which clothing is often sent out leaded with the infection of > small-pox and typhus. > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 26 04:28:27 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:28:27 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) Message-ID: Here is "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" as sung by Clara Smith in 1929: a very early example of "poontang". At this time "poontang" = "sex" already existed, as exemplified in _Look Homeward, Angel_ (1929, relevant parts set in about 1913: three instances). The words on my record are generally clear and unambiguous (two are possibly questionable as shown below). ---------- Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'll tell the world that it's a whang. I like your good peach cobbler and your apple pie, But when I get your poontang you will hear me cry: Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Mr. Mitchell owned a sweet confectionery stand, Way down south in Lou'siana. Mr. Mitchell always have [had?] good pies and cakes on hand, Surge [Served?] in a pleasing manner. Miss Lindy Lou, she tasted his brand new confection; Mr. Mitchell called it sweet poontang. And when Miss Lindy Lou with it made good connection This is what she yelled before the gang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, it's got me going with a bang. Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; But when you give me poontang I just lose control. Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm crazy about your sweet poontang. Give me lots of poontang; Please don't make me plead. Can't you see you really got Just what I need? Oh, oh, Mr. Mitchell, I'm wild about your sweet poontang. ---------- Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's really something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Can there be a clue here as to the origin of "poontang"? Is there a Louisiana confection called "poontang" or something close? [Yes.] Of course that doesn't have to explain the etymology; maybe this is just a double-entendre based on similarity between two already existing etymologically unrelated near-homonyms. Here's another song, supposedly a folk song, called "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", performed by Jimmie Strothers on guitar in 1936. I can't understand large parts, which are mumbled. I quote relevant excerpts from the liner notes. ---------- Poontang little and poontang small, Poontang stretches like a rubber ball. Oh my babe, took my salty thing. Gonna hang my poontang from the fence, Oh, the man come to get it ain't got no sense. Oh my babe, oh my salty thing. .... Hung my poontang from the wire, [?] comes down to put out his fire. Oh my babe, took my salty thing. Put my dress above my knees, Gonna give my poontang who I please. Oh my babe, [took] my salty thing. .... ---------- There's a lot of apparent nonsense in this song, but it's hard to picture anybody hanging his/her poontang from a wire or a fence. One can't very well hang up the sex act, nor even the sex organ. Presumably this is another double-entendre. Can one hang up some confection, by any chance? Well, yes, puddings have been hung up routinely: could "poontang" = "pudding"? Does "pudding" mean "sex"? Sure it does, or did; examples are found in Farmer and Henley etc. [I believe a closely related word persists in "pud" = "penis", which was once pronounced /pUd/ as in its ancestor "pudding" = "penis".] In the earliest printed citations, "poontang" is treated as an uncountable noun, as if a substance or commodity rather than a person or countable object. In this respect I think "poontang" is analogous to "jelly roll" (which is perhaps a little older according to the record). OED and other authorities prefer "poontang" < French "putain". DARE quotes a 1950 AS article to the effect that the origin is in Louisiana Creole. But grammatically "get some poontang" is more like "get some pudding" than like "get some prostitute". The sense is also that of "pudding" in its old sense "sex"/"f*cking" rather than exactly that of "prostitute". But what about the phonetics? The standard word for "pudding" in Louisiana Creole appears to be "poutin". Here is the entry in Valdman et al., _Dictionary of Louisiana Creole_ (1998) (p. 381): ---------- poutin n. (CA): poudin (ST); lapoutin (BT). 1. Filling for cake or pie; garniture. _Lapoutin se sa t aranje sa pou me`t an te gato._ [poutin] is what you make to put between slices of cake. (BT) 2. Dumplings; boulettes de pa^te bouillie. (BT) 3. Pudding; pudding, flan. _Poutin rezen._ Raisin pudding. (CA); _Poutin diri_ Rice pudding. (CA); _To fe en bouyi dile pou fe en poudin diri._ You make boiled milk to make rice pudding. (ST) ---------- [CA and ST and BT are regions from which material was collected. Incidentally, note the definite article attached to the word in one version; this is now part of the word apparently; this phenomenon is a feature of Creole, says the book.] I suppose this may be cognate with French "boudin" (a Louisiana favorite). Note "boudiner" = "copulate" in _Vocabula Amatoria_. Maybe it's also cognate with English "pudding"? According to the book, the pronunciation should be approximately /putE~/, by comparison to "putain" (French) /pytE~/. The "pudding" etymon is marginally preferable to the "prostitute" one phonetically, although both fail to account for the first nasal in "poontang". In summary, "poontang" < "poutin" seems to be in some respects a better conjecture than "poontang" < "putain": slightly better phonetically, better grammatically, maybe better in sense depending upon whether "pudding" or "poutin" [still] carried the meaning "sex" ca. 1900-1920. I do NOT claim that this "poutin" etymology is in any way proven or certain. The question is still open AFAIK. I do suggest that the "probably" applied in OED etc. to the "putain" etymology is unjustified and should at very least be replaced by "possibly" ... or maybe by "wag". Questions and corrections are welcome. Does HDAS have anything new to add? -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 04:46:31 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:46:31 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250656.1bOJuD1wg3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 9:56 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. I was impressed that the HDAS had "jump smooth." That's a new one on me, but I like the sound of it. It's something that I'd add to my active vocabulary, except that the "jump [...]" formations - and I myself - are now so old-school that I'd probably never have occasion to use it. -Wilson Gray > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. There may very well be more discussion, but don't forget that, to Americans - and especially to one who has learned "standard" American English as a second dialect - if a word is spelled with an "ahruh," that "ahruh" is meant to be pronounced. So, "motherferyer" or -fuyer, even had I noticed them, would, nevertheless, have struck me as irrelevant, unfortunately. -Wilson Gray > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 26 05:14:59 2004 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:14:59 -0500 Subject: Tooth Mouse, tooth fairy Message-ID: From the archives of the Stumpers list (A list primarily for library personnel faced with questions they can't answer): Subject: dental doings: toothbrushes and tooth fairies admonishments for care of the mouth: `One should rise early in the morning and brush one's teeth. The tooth brush should consist of a fresh twig of a tree or scrub free from any knots, 12 fingers in length, shall correspond with the season of the year. . . . Each day one should use a tooth cleaning paste made of honey, oil, and other substances. Each tooth should be individually brushed . . . and care must be exercised not to injure the gum. . . ." Now, as for the tooth fairy, I'm sorry to be so long in replying. Dennis Lien (I believe), as usual, provided an excellent starting point, _Ethnodentistry and Dental FOlklore_ (1987) by William J. Carter, et al, there is a chapter on "shed tooth rituals" (pp. 72-82). "There are literally hundreds of adages, customs, ceremonies, and prayers that have been associated with the loss of primary teeth" (p. 72). A section on "tooth fairies" (pp. 77-82), suggests that around 1900 in France, Britain and the U.S., the tooth fairy came to replace "more traditional tooth mouse rituals." ". . . the recent history of these rituals is poorly documented for all these countries except France." Apparently in France, it's still as likely that a mouse will provide the reward as that a fairy will. "The earliest well documented American tooth fairy ritual dates from 1919, when a source from Utah said a fairy would come in the night and leave a candy bar, penny nickel, or dime for a lost tooth . . ." "The word tooth fairy probably did not become popular in the United Sates until 1949, when Lee Rogow publused a short story by this name in Collier's Magazine (124:126). The first appearance of `tooth fairy' in an encyclopedia was apparently ALan Dundes's article in the 1979 World I do not recall who first asked for the information about the tooth fairy. Whoever you are, please feel free to request this book by ILL,. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ or http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 05:17:54 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:17:54 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250831.1bOKYKlS3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Go get 'em, Jesse! > > Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would > have been in boldface. Is the above meant seriously or ironically? Or, perhaps, even sarcastically? I'm afraid that I've missed your point entirely. > > The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the > Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: > a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. Does he actually use "ahruhs" in his transcriptions of black speech? Ain't that a pistol?! It must make his writings as hard to read as the "Uncle Remus" stories. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by the string, "sezee." Not that I have any intention of reading the old uncle's tales, in any case. > > JL -Wilson Gray > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jul 26 09:11:53 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:11:53 +0100 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; > But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning > superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a > whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's > really > something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie Smith (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given the primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang terms 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some long-forgotten lesbian? As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", this is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome but popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, pub. 1968). Jonathon Green From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:04:40 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:04:40 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Wilson, No irony or sarcasm intended. Quite the opposite. I certainly would have defined "jump sharp" separately if the number of citations had warranted it and am most pleased to for any clarification of any entry. As for Mezzrow or, more precisely, his collaborator, Bernard Wolfe, his orthography is perfectly standard. It's his vocabulary that's remarkable. I think Gerry Cohen reprinted the entire glossary once in "Comments on Etymology." I was in college before I realized that "Brer" shd be pronounced "Bruh" (or even "Bro"?). (My comment to Jesse was simply a good-humored reaction to his lightning defense of HDAS.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Go get 'em, Jesse! > > Wilson, thanks for the xtra "jump sharp." If I'd had more, it would > have been in boldface. Is the above meant seriously or ironically? Or, perhaps, even sarcastically? I'm afraid that I've missed your point entirely. > > The classical text for "motherferyer" is Mezz Mezzrow's "Really the > Blues." He uses it plenty. He also includes an extensive glossary: > a typically mixed bag of the real, the plausible, and the bizarre. Does he actually use "ahruhs" in his transcriptions of black speech? Ain't that a pistol?! It must make his writings as hard to read as the "Uncle Remus" stories. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by the string, "sezee." Not that I have any intention of reading the old uncle's tales, in any case. > > JL -Wilson Gray > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:11:32PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered >> to >> be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be >> missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my >> reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch >> out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > It's there. There's an entry for _jump_ 'to behave (in a > specified manner) suddenly', and while we pull out several > common phrases, _jump sharp_ is found in the list of cites. > >> "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from >> muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other >> euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad >> Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > The entry for _motherfucker_ does indicate "Forms such as > _motherferyer, -fuyer_ are euphem.". I thought there was > more discussion of these forms, but I seem to be mistaken. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 26 13:26:47 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:26:47 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. In-Reply-To: <20040724181724.23849.qmail@web61301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I remember distinctly (not that that's all that reliable) hearing one from teenage friends in 1987 in Louisiana, but they called it the JC Handle. And because of them - I still do. At 02:17 PM 7/24/2004, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of >the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an >emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > >The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > >holy-crap handle > >holy-shit handle > >Jesus handle > >Jesus strap > >oh-crap handle > >Oh-Jesus strap > >oh-shit handle > >shit handle > >Any comments wd be welcome. > > >JL > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:33:09 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:33:09 -0700 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) Message-ID: Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think "poontang" implies "poontang" and puns the confection. Hanging stuff on trees is just whimsy. Advanced folklorists and rugby players will recall the Scottish stanza: John Brown the factor he was there, and most surprised to see Four-and-twenty maidenheids a-hangin frae a tree. Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to me likely. Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and elsewhere, was born and raised in North Carolina. My impression is that the word was once most common in the South. Racial overtones are an occasional and not a defining feature. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; > But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning > superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a > whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's > really > something" but it may be a double-entendre too. Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie Smith (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given the primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang terms 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some long-forgotten lesbian? As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", this is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome but popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, pub. 1968). Jonathon Green --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 13:55:57 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:55:57 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Kathleen. I've found one ex. of "JC handle" - from Arizona. I shd also have mentioned "panic strap" and "panic handle." jl "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember distinctly (not that that's all that reliable) hearing one from teenage friends in 1987 in Louisiana, but they called it the JC Handle. And because of them - I still do. At 02:17 PM 7/24/2004, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of >the kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an >emergency. Can any of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > >The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > >holy-crap handle > >holy-shit handle > >Jesus handle > >Jesus strap > >oh-crap handle > >Oh-Jesus strap > >oh-shit handle > >shit handle > >Any comments wd be welcome. > > >JL > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 15:18:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:18:45 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <25FD2CD1-DEC3-11D8-B969-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >"brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >"brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >the string, "sezee." "Says he"? Just a guess. larry From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Mon Jul 26 17:27:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:27:31 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:18 AM 7/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >>It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >>understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >>Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >>"brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >>"brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >>the string, "sezee." > >"Says he"? Just a guess. > >larry And I suspect Harris was trying to approximate the Gullah quotative "say," as in "Bruh Fox answer, say ...." (common in West African creoles too). When I play the OSU Language Files tape of a Gullah woman telling the Fox and Rabbit tales, I always have to tell my students that the woman's "Bruh" [br@] is the same word they've read in Harris (or more likely heard in the movie version) as "Brer," and they're amazed, all being r-ful. "Bruh" transmutes into "Bro" today, but better Gullah would be "Bruh" or "Brudda." BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find them! What a loss. From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 18:12:38 2004 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:12:38 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: I first heard it as "Oh Jesus handle" in 1987 or 1988 in southeastern Michigan, but I also recall "oh shit handle" and I'm sure we had other variants as well. Jeff Prucher --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the > kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any > of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > > The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > > holy-crap handle > > holy-shit handle > > Jesus handle > > Jesus strap > > oh-crap handle > > Oh-Jesus strap > > oh-shit handle > > shit handle > > Any comments wd be welcome. > > > JL > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 18:38:38 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:38:38 -0400 Subject: The mouse Message-ID: Songs like Jimmie Rodgers' T for Texas contain a lot of vagrant verses. Here are the words for T for Texas: T for Texas Jimmie Rodgers E E7 A Well, 'T' for Texas, 'T' for Tennessee A E 'T' for Texas, 'T' for Tennessee B7 E 'T' for Thelma, the gal that made a wreck out of me If you don't want me mama, you sure don't have to stall If you don't want me mama, you sure don't have to stall 'Cause I can get more women than a passenger train [can haul] Well, I'm going where the water drinks like cherry wine I'm going where the water drinks like cherry wine 'Cause this Georgia water tastes like turpentine I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log Than to be here in Atlanta, [and] get treated like a dirty dog E B7 E Women make a fool out of me If you're ever down in mobile be sure to look me up If you're ever down in mobile be sure to look me up And if your ever in Atlanta tell Lucille to go to hell Women make a fool out of me You can ignore the chord changes since unless he was capoed up I frankly doubt that Jimmie Rodgers ever played anything in the key of E. To make it even more complex Jimmie Rodgers' "Last Blue Yodel" is subtitled "The Women Make a Fool Out of Me", and when I play that song I often start out with the first verse from T for Texas since they are to the same tune. I wouldn't be surprised if Blind Lemon who was from Texas used some of these verses in his songs although I cannot vouch for it since I would have to go through my incomplete Blind Lemon collection in order to find them. I will not get into all of the technical details of determining authorship of any song except to say that quite often it is very difficult to determine authorship due to the fact that often a famous singer would put his name as first author on a song when he recorded it as a quid pro quo for having recorded it. I may be wrong but I am convinced that this is what happened with Jimmie Rodgers' "When it's Peach Picking Time in Georgia" since my late fiddler friend Clayton McMichen of Gid Tanner and The Skillet Lickers and later Clayton McMichens's Georgia Wildcats who worked with Jimmie Rodgers probably wrote the song even though his name appears after Rodgers' name on the copyright. "Peach Picking Time in Georgia" in any case is probably much more original than either of the Jimmie Rodgers' "Blue Yodels" we have been discussing which contain so many vagrant verses. I will leave you with the following note. My friend Amos Garrett recently recorded a version of as song which he entitled "Michigan Water Blues" on his CD entitled "Amos Garrett Acoustic Album" which includes the cherry wine and turpentine references. He references it as "Trad. Arranged and adapted by Amos Garrett Wooly Worm Music SOCAN" This is totally appropriate since he and I played that song with different references some 43 years ago in Crawfordsville, Indiana. For some odd reason we used to sing "Crawfordsville water tastes like turpentine". Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: Re: The mouse > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The mouse > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Beats the shit outta me, Lar. I know it from a Blind Lemon Jefferson > recording. Actually, it's a line favored by several Texas bluesmen. But > I have no idea as to whether any of them proceeded or followed Jimmie > Rodgers. I restrict myself to the Texas-Louisiana-Mississippi axis, > with very few exceptions, just as a matter of preference. We Texans, > regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, are as > chauvinistic about our state as we're reputed to be. [Please don't > forget that Dubyuh is a native of *Connecticut* and NOT of Texas!] > > "Well, I've been to Dallas and I've been to San Antone, but there's a > place called Marshall where I'm better known." - Floyd Dixon: Marshall, > Texas, Is My Home. > > -Wilson > > On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: The mouse > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > At 1:23 PM -0400 7/24/04, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Jul 24, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >>> Subject: Re: The mouse > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> -- > >>> -------- > >>> > >>> East Tennesseans commonly talk about "picking up the room" meaning > >>> picking things up off the floor, mainly. > >>> > >>> JL > >> > >> Yes, it also means that in East Texas, too. "'T' for Texas and 'T' for > >> Tennessee," as the traditional blues line says. > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >> > > Isn't that from Jimmie Rodgers (The Singin' Brakeman)? ("...T for > > Thelma, the gal who made a wreck out of me") Or did he borrow it > > from someone earlier? > > > > larry > > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 18:57:42 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:57:42 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407250911.1bOLAHEu3NZFlr1@killdeer> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not > encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? > > JL Weirdly enough, though I did try using "slave" as meaning "ordinary job" - I gotta go to my slave v. I gotta go cut the slave - it didn't catch on and I've never heard anyone else say other than "cut the ..." The only bell that this has ever rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use of some edged instrument. "Cut out" = "leave" isn't relevant. "Cut the slave" is simply "work at an ordinary job" and nothing else. -Wilson Gray > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I was pleasantly surprised to see the definitions "well-dressed" and > "stylishly dressed" for "laid" in the HDAS, since my impression > heretofore had been that this was a local meaning peculiar to black > Saint Louis, where the phrase "get laid" is - or, at least, was; I > first heard it in 1949 - merely another way to say "jump sharp" (= get > dressed up for public display, as at a house party or at a nightclub). > > On the other hand, "jump sharp" itself, which I've always considered to > be - in olden times, at least - in universal use, appears to be > missing. I say "appears" because it's dark and I'm working without my > reading lamp. If I turn it on, one of our cats will come and stretch > out on top of the HDAS in order to catch some rays. > > The HDAS has "break bad," but not the far hipper "break nasty," which > has exactly the same meaning and may be slightly older. I first heard > "break nasty" some time ca.1965, but I heard "break bad" so soon > thereafter that the sequence may be only coincidental. > > "Nigger box," used by whites in the Greater Boston Area instead of > "ghetto box/blaster" since ca.1980, also appears to be missing. > > "Mother for you" [muthuhFUHyuh is only trivially distinct from > muthuhFUHkuh] and "My Friend" (because of initial "M" & "F") are other > euphemisms for "motherfucker" and at least as old as the song, "Bad > Mother For You" by Dirty Red. > > In BE, "ignorant stick" means "pushbroom." > > "Cut the slave," meaning to "work at a regular, legal job" is missing. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jul 26 19:59:23 2004 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:59:23 -0500 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: > The only bell that this has ever > rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." > But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, > implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut > it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use > of some edged instrument. > > Any relationship to "cutting heads"; two guitarists facing off in competition? From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 20:02:37 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:02:37 -0400 Subject: pseodonyms Message-ID: Two of the most important country singers in the past 100 years used the names of two different towns for their stage names. Harold Lloyd Jenkins used the name Conway Twitty as his pseudonym and renamed himself after Conway, Arkansas and Twitty, Texas though he was born in Missouri. Vernon Dalhart, one of his many pseudonyms, was born Marion Try Slaughter got his most famous pseudonym from the towns of Vernon and Dalhart both in Texas. Does anyone out there know of any other singer who has done this? Page Stephens From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 26 20:17:37 2004 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:17:37 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing In-Reply-To: <20040726135557.9912.qmail@web61303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." First, is it legal? ;-) Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. Thanks. Kathleen E. Miller Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 26 20:20:54 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:54 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040726161116.023e44d8@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen E. Miller said: >In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across >several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > >First, is it legal? ;-) >Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. The first outdoor sports thing that comes to mind is from rock climbing. A friend of mine does a lot of climbing in the 'gunks (Shawangunks) outside of New Paltz, NY. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Mon Jul 26 20:25:53 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:25:53 -0500 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 In-Reply-To: <200407262009.i6QK9SLD018029@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: I found this: "Gunkholing can be simply described as a meandering voyage through the sloughs and rivers of the San Francisco Bay/Sacramento River Delta." at http://www.stella67.com/gunk/gunk.html, presumably going back to 1995. I guess it refers to exploring holes of gunk...:-) Rachel Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Gunkholing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across > several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > > First, is it legal? ;-) > Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. > > Thanks. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 21:06:21 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: This is new to me Message-ID: Just heard on today's local news in Boston: Roadhorse: "a sawhorse used as a roadblock" Never heard it before. Hope I'm not the only one who's not familiar with it. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 22:39:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:39:17 -0700 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: Check Webster's 3rd. I think it means fishing in secluded coves, inlets, and similar coastal areas. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Re: Gunkholing ?1995 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found this: "Gunkholing can be simply described as a meandering voyage through the sloughs and rivers of the San Francisco Bay/Sacramento River Delta." at http://www.stella67.com/gunk/gunk.html, presumably going back to 1995. I guess it refers to exploring holes of gunk...:-) Rachel Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Kathleen E. Miller" > Subject: Gunkholing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the midst of planning a kayaking trip to Maine, I have come across > several Web sites and guides talking about "the best gunkholing on the coast." > > First, is it legal? ;-) > Second, what exactly is it? It doesn't seem to be in MW, OED or ADH3. > > Thanks. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 22:46:59 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:59 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Jeff. Surely all these names didn't arise in the '80s??? (When necessary, I've always referred to it as "you know, that strap you can hang clothes on.") JL Jeff Prucher wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jeff Prucher Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I first heard it as "Oh Jesus handle" in 1987 or 1988 in southeastern Michigan, but I also recall "oh shit handle" and I'm sure we had other variants as well. Jeff Prucher --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found the following US terms for a handle or strap, typically of the > kind inside a passenger car, that one may grab onto in an emergency. Can any > of these be dated reliably to the period before ca.1990? > > The derivations shd be fairly apparent. Cf. the "Jesus nut" on a helicopter. > > holy-crap handle > > holy-shit handle > > Jesus handle > > Jesus strap > > oh-crap handle > > Oh-Jesus strap > > oh-shit handle > > shit handle > > Any comments wd be welcome. > > > JL > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 23:08:50 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on German "sprechen" speak. "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and plural, plus collective and individuative. Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said German would always respond positively, thinking that we were addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most beautiful in Europe." -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 23:13:18 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:13:18 -0700 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS Message-ID: Doug, I never thought of the rough phonetic similarity between "come the (old soldier)" and "cut the (fool)." It may be entirely coincidental, but "come the" had early 19th C. currency in the US and may have mutated into (and been replaced by, where it survived) by "cut the." It is hard to imagine any evidence that would settle this one way or the other. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act like/as the X"? E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play possum". And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: "cut the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to show some examples. Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and "play" can? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 26 23:16:57 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:16:57 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: Well, www.gunkhole.org says that gunkhole as a noun means "a small, sheltered cove for anchoring small watercraft" and as an intransitive verb means "to make a series of short pleasure trips by boat, as from island to island." There was a 1984 book by Al and Jo B. Cummings called Gunkholing in the San Juans, but I bet the term goes back earlier than that. I had never heard it before. John Baker From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 26 23:20:21 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:21 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had been reduced to "rads." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on German "sprechen" speak. "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and plural, plus collective and individuative. Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said German would always respond positively, thinking that we were addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most beautiful in Europe." -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 26 23:29:55 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:29:55 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261259.1bPbDo1mF3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> The only bell that this has ever >> rung with me is the "cut" in "can't cut it" = "can't do it." >> But I doubt any connection. "Can't cut it," to my mind, >> implies "tried [one's best] and failed [anyway]" and "can cut >> it" has, for me, only the literal meaning involving the use >> of some edged instrument. >> >> > > Any relationship to "cutting heads"; two guitarists facing off in > competition? > I don't think so, though I've heard "cutting" used alone in a music context: a new band member attempting to demonstrate his chops and the talent that he brings to the unit by challenging an established band/group member or section to a "cutting" contest. Jean-Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet is perhaps the most famous case. He played the alto sax. But Lionel Hampton refused to hire him, since he needed a tenor man. To get the job, Jacquet switched to the tenor on the spot and played first tenor when the band recorded "Flyin' Home." Jacquet improvised a solo that cut his competition for first tenor and, in fact, established him as the king of the so-called "Texas Honker" school of tenor-sax playing. -Wilson Gray From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 26 23:33:22 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:33:22 -0400 Subject: Gunkholing ?1995 Message-ID: I was right to think the term could be taken back earlier. From a 6/22/56 article by Peggy Reynolds in the Washington Post: "Lt. Col. Dickinson, and Club's cruisemaster, intends to go gunkholing in the Potomac and Chesapeake Bay for a week's duration, in his 21-foot Lone Star outboard cruiser." The same writer used the noun in an 11/25/56 article entitled "Every Sailor Seeks a Gunkhole." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Baker, John Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 7:17 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Gunkholing ?1995 Well, www.gunkhole.org says that gunkhole as a noun means "a small, sheltered cove for anchoring small watercraft" and as an intransitive verb means "to make a series of short pleasure trips by boat, as from island to island." There was a 1984 book by Al and Jo B. Cummings called Gunkholing in the San Juans, but I bet the term goes back earlier than that. I had never heard it before. John Baker From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 27 01:26:45 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:26:45 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: <20040726133309.94106.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Responding to Jonathon Green and Jonathan Lighter: >Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think "poontang" >implies "poontang" and puns the confection. But puns what word? "Pudding" is too different IMHO. The Creole word "poutin" seems to be virtually nonexistent in English: I can't find it anywhere, even on the Web. If this song has a pun on "poutin" it indicates some currency of the word "poutin" in circles where "poontang" was also known, which makes "poutin" more attractive as a candidate etymon. Perhaps Barry Popik can make some statement about "poutin" (NOT Quebecois "poutine"!). I admit however that it is also quite possible that there is no real double-entendre in the word "poontang" here, rather that the confection was just an imaginary one named "poontang", just an excuse to play with the 'dirty' word. [There apparently was a much later pop song with "poontang" in which it was given a bogus gloss ("poon means a hug, tang means a kiss" or something like that) ... http://www.roctober.com/roctober/greatness/treniers.html ....] But in this case is it significant that the imaginary sweet was of Louisiana origin? Anyway, I've made the lyrics available, and I think they're interesting. These are the only early song examples of "poontang" which I've found; if anybody has any more please let me know. >Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without >specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to me >likely. I agree and I believe the usual early meaning was "sex"/"copulation" and not "vagina" (a fine and unprovable distinction, I suppose, in many cases). >Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and elsewhere, >was born and raised in North Carolina. Asheville was apparently the model for the fictional setting ... not Creole country exactly. I didn't know of the Creole word "poutin" until last week. Ignoring the two songs I quoted, which I admit are possibly entirely irrelevant, "poutin" is a pretty good candidate etymon on its own merits IMHO ... IF one assumes a Louisiana French/Creole origin. The usual alternative speculation, I believe, is US military origin, which permits at least two obvious candidates (French, Tagalog) IMHO, as I said before. There are still other possibilities, perhaps including the true one which nobody has guessed. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 02:33:23 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:33:23 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261613.1bPeER4zc3NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Doug, > > I never thought of the rough phonetic similarity between "come the > (old soldier)" and "cut the (fool)." > > It may be entirely coincidental, but "come the" had early 19th C. > currency in the US and may have mutated into (and been replaced by, > where it survived) by "cut the." > > It is hard to imagine any evidence that would settle this one way or > the other. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> "Slave" = ordinary job has been around for a while, but I have not >> encountered it with "cut." Any related terms? > > Is "cut the X" comparable to "come the X" or "play the X" meaning "act > like/as the X"? > > E.g., in HDAS: "come the old soldier", "come the possum" = "play > possum". > > And I THINK I've encountered all of these, although I may misremember: > "cut > the fool" ?= "play the fool" ?= "come the fool". Google does appear to > show > some examples. FWIW, I, too, find something familiar about "cut the fool" = "play the fool," but as something that I may have read somewhere, not as something that I've heard spoken. In any case, though, "cut the slave" means merely "to work at any kind of ordinary, square, day job," with no implication that the person is in any sense acting as a slave. Both a janitor and a CEO cut the slave. -Wilson Gray > > Maybe "cut" can be used with more-or-less arbitrary X, as "come" and > "play" > can? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 03:37:44 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:37:44 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407261042.1bP9ug1R63NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 1:27 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 11:18 AM 7/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >> At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >>> understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >>> Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >>> "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >>> "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented >>> by >>> the string, "sezee." >> >> "Says he"? Just a guess. >> >> larry > > And I suspect Harris was trying to approximate the Gullah quotative > "say," > as in "Bruh Fox answer, say ...." (common in West African creoles > too). When I play the OSU Language Files tape of a Gullah woman > telling > the Fox and Rabbit tales, I always have to tell my students that the > woman's "Bruh" [br@] is the same word they've read in Harris (or more > likely heard in the movie version) as "Brer," and they're amazed, all > being > r-ful. "Bruh" transmutes into "Bro" today, but better Gullah would > be"Bruh" or "Brudda." Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided as "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! -Wilson Gray > > BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had them > for > years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked for a > replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the > World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find > them! What a loss. > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 04:26:12 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:26:12 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407260818.1bP7fz6KD3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in that signature Jafro? -Wilson On Jul 26, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:17 AM -0400 7/26/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I >> understood that whatchanamit was writing exclusively for a white >> Southern audience that would have immediately understood that, e.g. >> "brer" (or however he transcribed it) is not meant to be pronounced >> "brair." And I'm still left with the problem of what is represented by >> the string, "sezee." > > "Says he"? Just a guess. > > larry > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 04:30:27 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:30:27 -0400 Subject: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) In-Reply-To: <200407260633.1bP5Br4NQ3NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jonathon Green is correct about double-entendre blues. I think > "poontang" implies "poontang" and puns the confection. > > Hanging stuff on trees is just whimsy. Advanced folklorists and rugby > players will recall the Scottish stanza: > > John Brown the factor he was there, and most > surprised to see > Four-and-twenty maidenheids a-hangin frae a tree. > > Lesbians need not be invoked if "poontang" simply means sex without > specifically female overtones. This is not only possible but seems to > me likely. > > Thomas Wolfe, author of the well-known 1929 cite in HDAS and > elsewhere, was born and raised in North Carolina. > > My impression is that the word was once most common in the South. > Racial overtones are an occasional and not a defining feature. > > JL Depends on whose ox is being gored, I guess. -Wilson Gray > > > Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: "Poontang" etymology (speculative) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Your cherry pie is juicy, so is your jelly roll; >> But when you give me poontang I just lose control. > >> Presumably there is a double-entendre here, with "poontang" meaning >> superficially "a Louisiana confection" but also meaning "sex". "It's a >> whang" probably means "It's a real whang-doodle" or so, i.e., "It's >> really >> something" but it may be a double-entendre too. > > Both Doug Wilson's songs are very typical of what might be termed a > 'dirty' variety of 1920s/30s blues, as sung by the likes of Bessie > Smith > (Nobody In Town Can Bake A Sweet Jelly Roll Like Mine) or Louise Bogan > ('Ain't nobody in town can grind a coffee like mine.'). However, given > the > primary term and its acknowledged meaning: the vagina, what is unusual > about "Oh! Mr. Mitchell" is that the lyrics are given to a woman. The > whole thing is indeed riddled with doubles entendres, but the slang > terms > 'poontang', 'cherry pie' and 'jellyroll' are almost invariably female > attributes. 'Whang', equally gender-linked, usually refers to a penis. > This is perhaps silly territory, but given the overt sexuality of the > song, could 'Mr.' Mitchell have been an undercover reference to some > long-forgotten lesbian? > > As for the Jimmie Strothers song, "Poontang Little, Poontang Small", > this > is very much more what one would expect: the poontang is unarguably the > vagina. ('Salt', as in in 'salty thing', once mean lecherous in SE.) As > for the hanging and stretching imagery, is there some kind of gruesome > but > popular fantasy therein? Very similar imagery occurs in a highly > misogynistic scene in Jim Thompson's novel _King Blood_ (set in 1900, > pub. > 1968). > > Jonathon Green > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 27 04:38:12 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:38:12 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. In-Reply-To: <20040727040125.46B4822870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't remember where I heard it. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jul 27 04:48:23 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:48:23 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <20040727040125.46B4822870@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >>> "Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided as "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! <<< I had to go over that paragraph a couple of times to parse it, finding my way around the inversion, but it was worth it. Sir, that was a fun read! -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 06:14:18 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407261620.1bPeLG2NY3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the pride and joy with they served side by side with their white brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. -Wilson Gray On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have > heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans > are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had > been reduced to "rads." > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the > sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein > "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. > > "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide > someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell > someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the > latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on > German "sprechen" speak. > > "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as > in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, > Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as > a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the > essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like > "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and > plural, plus collective and individuative. > > Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw > Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous > personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem > was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by > Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street > tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of > anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if > he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to > be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a > German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise > white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would > want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. > Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with > Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African > descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all > directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And > returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn > away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his > children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal > in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town > plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" > > Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't > realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to > address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said > German would always respond positively, thinking that we were > addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white > GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. > > "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way > syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, > "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most > beautiful in Europe." > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 11:58:37 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:58:37 -0700 Subject: O.K & Booze Message-ID: FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the 1840 race for the White House! "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van Buren!!! "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled whiskey bottle to prove it!!! Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 13:02:28 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:02:28 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, Mark. That's a new one. The first of these that I encountered was "shit handle," in 2000. My source, an emeritus professor, assured me he had heard it during WWII. I have no confirmatory evidence that any of these terms was in use so early as that, but as Dayton Allen used to say, "WHHHHHHYYYYY NOT?" JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't remember where I heard it. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 13:16:22 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:16:22 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany -- or was it? The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another stereotypical reinforcement. You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have been written by black GI's. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the pride and joy with they served side by side with their white brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. -Wilson Gray On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have > heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans > are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had > been reduced to "rads." > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the > sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein > "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. > > "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide > someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; tell > someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the > latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on > German "sprechen" speak. > > "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as > in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, > Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as > a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the > essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like > "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and > plural, plus collective and individuative. > > Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw > Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous > personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem > was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used by > Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street > tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of > anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if > he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came to > be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a > German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise > white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would > want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. > Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with > Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African > descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all > directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And > returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to turn > away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his > children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal > in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town > plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" > > Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans didn't > realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to > address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said > German would always respond positively, thinking that we were > addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white > GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. > > "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way > syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, > "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most > beautiful in Europe." > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 13:53:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:53:14 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: For the life of me I cannot remember anyone calling the damned things anything at all. This is perhaps due to the fact that in my youth my father could only afford to drive Plymouths, and you only found these straps on higher priced cars. I do remember a reference to them in one of Rex Stout's Nero Wolf novels in which Wolf held onto one for dear life since he was mortally afraid of any form of machinery and was convinced that every automobile was about to crash. If anyone has the energy to read the entire series of Nero Wolf novels -- a delightful experience -- they might be able to date this reference. Page "too poor to afford a car with a strap" Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Thanks, Mark. That's a new one. > > The first of these that I encountered was "shit handle," in 2000. My source, an emeritus professor, assured me he had heard it during WWII. > > I have no confirmatory evidence that any of these terms was in use so early as that, but as Dayton Allen used to say, "WHHHHHHYYYYY NOT?" > > JL > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > For me, occasionally and once upon a time, the "oh-my-God bar". But I can't > remember where I heard it. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 13:56:14 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:56:14 -0400 Subject: O.K & Booze Message-ID: Out of curiosity has anyone on this list investigated the first use of "fair and balanced"? Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: O.K & Booze > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: O.K & Booze > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! > > Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the 1840 race for the White House! > > > "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van Buren!!! > > "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled whiskey bottle to prove it!!! > > Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 27 14:15:02 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:15:02 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <1775FB5D-DF85-11D8-AAB3-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 12:26 AM -0400 7/27/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in >that signature Jafro? > Hi, Wilson, I was doing so for a long time, although in a shorter version. Unfortunately when my hair came back after chemo a little while ago it came back less curly. Well, better wavy than dead. L From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 27 15:09:01 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:09:01 EDT Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase "panic hardware" anywhere else. - James A. Landau From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 15:48:02 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:48:02 -0400 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: The first time I ever saw a seat belt which eventually replaced the strap was back in the 1950s when Allan Metcalf and my cousin Ben Stephens had one installed one in his car after a friend of his had died after being thrown out of his car in an accident. Ben as I recall had to go to a military surplus store in order to buy a military surplus airplane seat belt and having some mechanic put it in for him by drilling holes into the body of his car. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab > handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If > we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". > > OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily > in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US > Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase > "panic hardware" anywhere else. > > - James A. Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 27 16:00:38 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:00:38 -0700 Subject: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. Message-ID: Thanks, James. A "panic handle" in very recent use is an emergency release handle that will allow escape from, say, an overturned school bus. This seems to me to be a colloquial or standard expression. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: Grab-handle or Strap in Car, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- in 1963-64 my father owned a sports car (a Triumph TR-3) which had a grab handle on the dashboard for the passenger. We called it the "chicken bar". If we were trying to be less informal in speech, we would call it the "panic bar". OED2 has "panic bolt" "a secial bolt for a door designed to unfasten readily in emergencies" from 1930. I have seen "panic hardware" used in official US Government procurement specs but cannot recall ever having heard the phrase "panic hardware" anywhere else. - James A. Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 27 17:40:52 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040726131614.021cabb8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ...BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had > them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked > for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the > World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find > them! What a loss. sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. when i left ohio state (physically; i still have an emeritus appointment there) in 1998, rather than truck this stuff across the country, i donated to the department library my complete set of Intro to Language materials, going back to the early '70s (collections of loose-leaf files, hence the name "Language Files") and including copies of all the editions (including a preliminary one) of LF. not long after, the department library was disbanded (to make more space), and its contents were given to the OSU main library, which discarded material it had no use for. obviously it had no use for outdated editions of a book it already had several copies of. i tried to get someone to save the LF stuff and ship it back to me (at my expense), but apparently my appeal came too late. so now i have none of it, except the two most recent editions. no tapes. and a piece of the historical record is lost. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who started the whole thing 30+ years ago From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 27 16:09:29 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:09:29 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Wilson Gray >They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of > the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a > term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." As a white GI, same place, same time, we often referred to the US as "the World." Also "the land of the round doorknobs." D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 27 18:06:31 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:06:31 -0400 Subject: Language Files In-Reply-To: <1B18DDFD-DFF4-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later ones; my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the audiotapes soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish (maybe I should send Brian a set too!). Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've become too discursive and less workbookish. Even Brian says the students find them dryasdust. We use Fromkin, Rodman, & Hyams, with exercises from LF plus our own made-up ones. This fall though, I'm switching in my own section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you part of that project? Any thoughts on it? And finally, thanks for the heads-up on storing materials in the library. Since I face this a year from now, I'll have to be realistic about how much they can reasonably take, I guess. At 10:40 AM 7/27/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Jul 26, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >>...BTW, the audiotapes accompanying LF are priceless, and I've had >>them for years. But when I was at OSU a couple of years ago and asked >>for a replacement for one I had lost (on the Ten Top Languages of the >>World--anyone have it?), Brian Joseph said they could no longer find >>them! What a loss. > >sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a >cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; >there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, >etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a >new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get >lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. > >when i left ohio state (physically; i still have an emeritus >appointment there) in 1998, rather than truck this stuff across the >country, i donated to the department library my complete set of Intro >to Language materials, going back to the early '70s (collections of >loose-leaf files, hence the name "Language Files") and including copies >of all the editions (including a preliminary one) of LF. not long >after, the department library was disbanded (to make more space), and >its contents were given to the OSU main library, which discarded >material it had no use for. obviously it had no use for outdated >editions of a book it already had several copies of. i tried to get >someone to save the LF stuff and ship it back to me (at my expense), >but apparently my appeal came too late. > >so now i have none of it, except the two most recent editions. no >tapes. and a piece of the historical record is lost. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who started the whole thing 30+ >years ago From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 27 18:39:05 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:39:05 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <1B18DDFD-DFF4-11D8-BA82-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >sigh. here you see the down side of running the Language Files as a >cottage industry, with new sets of people preparing each edition; >there's nobody responsible for maintaining continuity, keeping files, >etc. meanwhile, offices get moved around, the department moves to a >new building, the staff at OSU Press changes, and so on. things get >lost, or thrown away in housecleaning fits. D***! I will be teaching from the 9th edition Spring 2004, and I would love to have the tapes. ANY of the tapes. Bethany From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 27 18:41:14 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:41:14 -0400 Subject: O.K & Booze In-Reply-To: <200407270458.1bPqBu3PJ3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 7:58 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: O.K & Booze > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FOX NEWS LERT ! ! ! > > Moments ago, a political historian appeared on "Fox & Friends" to > announce that the common words "O.K." and "booze" both "come from" the > 1840 race for the White House! > > > "O.K." originally meant "Old Kinderhook," a nickname for Martin Van > Buren!!! > > "Booze" comes from the name of E. C. Booz [sic], a whiskey dealer who > sold whiskey during the campaign!!! And here's an old, unlableled > whiskey bottle to prove it!!! > > Stay tuned for more breaking news....on Fox!!!!!!!!!! > > JL Thanks for my first laugh of the day! -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 28 01:05:20 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:05:20 EDT Subject: Lawfare (1975) Message-ID: Today was a brutal day in the room with no air. I'll try to stay awake to find the keys. GICLEE--I didn't type the full WALL STREET JOURNAL article. Someone asked about this on Google Answers. LAWFARE--For the lawyers here. 27 July 2004, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pf. A17, col. 2: _Evidence That"Lawfare"_ _Was First Used in 1975_ In regard to Jeremy Rabkin's July 13 editorial-page essay on the "new" term "lawgare": Brig. Gen. Charles Dunlap (staff judge advocate, Headquarters Air COmbat Command, USAF) ahs written and spoken extensively on the topic of lawfare ifer the oast three years. A working paper by Gen.Dunlap, "Law and Military Interventions: Preserveing Humanitarian Values in 21st Century Conflicts," was presented at the Carr Center for Human RIghts Policy in 2001. That paper used the term lawfare and descrbed its impact on the ability of the U,S, to conduct effective military interventions. According to Gen. Dunlap's paper, the first use of the term lawfare appears to be in a manuscript "The Way Out--Readical Alternatives in Australia," by John Carlson and Neville Yeoumams from 1975. Carl Rhodes, Ph. D. Associate Director Aerospace Force Development Prgrams Project AIR FORCE RAND Corporation Santa Monica, Calif. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jul 28 01:24:29 2004 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin J Barrett) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:24:29 -0700 Subject: tori kara Message-ID: Last night, I saw tori kara on the menu at the Deluxe Bar and Grill in Seattle. Although I found a couple of instances of tori (Japanese for chicken/bird) in the archive, there were none for tori kara, torikara or karaage. I assume tori kara comes from tori-no karaage. Like the listing at seattlepi.nwsource.com/food/18434_eat13.shtml (tori-kara), this tori kara had a sauce that came with it, not necessarily the case in Japan. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 03:18:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:18:59 -0400 Subject: random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407262148.1bPjT6pQ3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:48 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray writes: > >>>> > "Bruh" is still "bruh." "Bro" is, IMO, as artificial and as misguided > as > "African-American" and as fucked up as misspelling "hunky" as "honky" > and adding the otiose "vernacular" - exists there some standard, > literary version of BE that escaped my notice while I was devoting my > primary- and secondary-school years to learning "standard" English as a > second dialect? - to Black English. WTF! > <<< > > I had to go over that paragraph a couple of times to parse it, finding > my > way around the inversion, but it was worth it. Sir, that was a fun > read! > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > Thank you for the compliment! I love doing that kind of thing. Wish I was good enough at it to get paid for it! -Wilson Gray From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jul 28 04:56:29 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:56:29 -0400 Subject: Giclee In-Reply-To: <20040728040338.E28B02287A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry writes: >>> GICLEE--I didn't type the full WALL STREET JOURNAL article. Someone asked about this on Google Answers. <<< I was introduced to this term fairly recently, within the last year I guess, by my wife's cousin, who is a professional artist. She is very pleased with the technology, which allows her to produce and sell extremely high-quality copies of her paintings at good prices. She pronounces it as French: [3i'kle], or roughly "zhee-CLAY", which I assume is correct. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 06:22:33 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:22:33 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407270616.1bPrOK3Qk3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. > > Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first > reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. > > Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany > -- or was it? No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the Security Agency as an Animal. > The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught > a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I > assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was > eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a > sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another > stereotypical reinforcement. I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse Now far more palatable. Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted that battle scene in this way. > > You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have > been written by black GI's. I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany > ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the > bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed > to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the > second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And > we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, > predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops > did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as > in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, > if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not > something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black > troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I > said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans > referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it > became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, > the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and > the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the > Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling > "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term > among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, > "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". > > At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single > reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was > an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the > control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black > officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When > you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the > pride and joy with they served side by side with their white > brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you > see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers > that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war > movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown > cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are > forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >> been reduced to "rads." >> >> JL >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >> >> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >> tell >> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >> German "sprechen" speak. >> >> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as >> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as >> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like >> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >> plural, plus collective and individuative. >> >> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem >> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >> by >> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of >> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >> to >> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. >> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >> turn >> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal >> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >> >> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >> didn't >> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white >> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >> >> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >> beautiful in Europe." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 28 17:12:11 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:12:11 EDT Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: In a message dated Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400, Wilson Gray writes inter alia: > the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War In 1970 or 1971 I checked out a book from the library of Fort Myer, Virginia. Stamped inside the front cover was the notice "For the use of colored troops at Fort Sill". The book was "Paul Revere and the World He Lived In" by Esther Forbes, which had a first hardcover edition of 1942, so it appears that the expression "colored troops" (I don't remember if it were capitalized) was still in official use, at least by Army librarians, during World War II. (I remember this notice due to the irony of juxtaposing the iconic Paul Revere with segregated libraries.) > Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" among other things is an official position, the chief administrative officer of a unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position is too busy with paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an "aide" however vary from general to general and frequently involves being a manservant. (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide and a chief of staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) - James A. Landau From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 17:43:28 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:28 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: <200407270715.1bPsJt7as3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 10:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:26 AM -0400 7/27/04, Wilson Gray wrote: >> Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. BTW, do you still wear your hair in >> that signature Jafro? >> > > Hi, Wilson, > > I was doing so for a long time, although in a shorter version. > Unfortunately when my hair came back after chemo a little while ago > it came back less curly. Well, better wavy than dead. > > L > Congrats on the comeback, in every sense of the word! My wife is a breast-cancer survivor and my brother completed two months of hopefully-successful radiation therapy for prostate cancer just last week. He said that a major side-effect forced him to give up public transportation and go back to driving. He now feels at one with the women in those "Gotta go! Gotta go! Gotta go right now!" TV ads. On the plus side, he was already bald before the therapy.;-) -Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 19:45:43 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:43 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: Given my reference in an earlier post to the assertion that "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit," naturally, I'm beginning this "war story" (in the punning sense to be explained below) in the correct manner. This is no shit. I'm sitting in the Star-Club, my favorite watering hole in Baumholder, Germany, when a bruthuh sojuh comes in with Frawline, his girl friend, and her parents, Cumrad and Fraw. Fraw smokes the set over and exclaims, "Ach, so! Dies ist ein Ami-Bar [?aahmi-baah = GI bar]!" And my bruthuh replies, "Yah, yah! Dis is a Army bar [?aahmih baah]!" The United States Colored Troops, in those days, at least (late '50's-early '60's) referred to the Army as the "War." As a consequence, any story that I tell about my life in the Army is, by definition, a "War story," hence the punning sense. I read somewhere or other that "put on the War suit" = join or be drafted into the Army, dates to WWII, but it - War suit - wasn't used for "uniform" in my day. For any youngsters in the audience, "Ami" is?/was a mildly-insulting, German slang term for "G.I." As I've said here before, women don't understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't nary nobody oblected!) That's why it was Fraw who used "Ami" in a bar full of G.I.'s. Cumrad would have known better. -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 28 20:49:06 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:49:06 -0400 Subject: "laid" and other random BE slang in the HDAS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Congrats on the comeback, in every sense of the word! My wife is a >breast-cancer survivor Not much fun, but being a survivor is always better than the alternative. >and my brother completed two months of >hopefully-successful radiation therapy for prostate cancer just last >week. He said that a major side-effect forced him to give up public >transportation and go back to driving. He now feels at one with the >women in those "Gotta go! Gotta go! Gotta go right now!" TV ads. On the >plus side, he was already bald before the therapy.;-) Well, the hair does grow back, albeit either less or more curly (and, I understand, sometimes a different color, although that didn't happen with me). I'd just as soon skip the (Southern-end) side effects of prostate surgery/radiation, from what I've heard about it, but in the end it may not be my call, if my remission lasts long enough for such issues to develop. In my case, the cancer was/is non-Hodgkins lymphoma, a particularly aggressive variety called mantle cell. No symptoms from the disease (which turned up during a routine colonoscopy), but the chemo wasn't much fun... Larry From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 28 22:45:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:45:52 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407271054.1bPwa04nA3NZFl40@penguin> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Duane Campbell wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Duane Campbell > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400 Wilson Gray > >> They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a >> term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As a white GI, same place, same time, we often referred to the US as > "the > World." Also "the land of the round doorknobs." I'm not surprised, given that your unit was one-third soul. I never heard the doorknob one, but I do remember the time that one of our guys paid five bucks for one of those faceted, imitation-crystal doorknobs that another GI had had his mother send him from home. And that was really big bucks, at a time when you could buy a Rolex in Los Angeles for about $125.00. -Wilson > > D > > I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 01:28:18 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:28:18 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at Indiana U. now.) Old saying (circa 1968): "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, this is no shit...'. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. > > Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first > reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. > > Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany > -- or was it? No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the Security Agency as an Animal. > The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught > a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I > assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was > eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a > sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another > stereotypical reinforcement. I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse Now far more palatable. Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted that battle scene in this way. > > You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have > been written by black GI's. I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. -Wilson Gray > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany > ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the > bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed > to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the > second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And > we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, > predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops > did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white as > in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, > if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not > something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black > troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I > said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans > referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it > became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in general, > the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and > the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the > Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of the > Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term > from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." > > As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling > "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term > among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, > "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". > > At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single > reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration was > an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the > control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black > officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When > you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the > pride and joy with they served side by side with their white > brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, you > see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers > that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war > movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown > cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are > forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >> been reduced to "rads." >> >> JL >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >> >> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >> tell >> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >> German "sprechen" speak. >> >> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German as >> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, as >> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, like >> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >> plural, plus collective and individuative. >> >> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The problem >> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >> by >> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight of >> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >> to >> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the street. >> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >> turn >> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a meal >> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >> >> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >> didn't >> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by white >> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >> >> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >> beautiful in Europe." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 01:33:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:18 EDT Subject: Wackadoos and Hate-triots Message-ID: WACKADOOS--496 Google hits, 96 Google Groups hits HATE-TRIOT--14 Google hits, 14 Google Groups hits HATE-TRIOTS--8 Google hits, 42 Google Groups hits I don't know the future HDAS coverage for "wackadoos." It's not in Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. >From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 28 July 2004, pg. 27, col. 1: _Left wing flaps on_ _Wackadoos are still dear to Dems' hearts_ MICHAEL GOODWIN in Boston (Mgoodwin at edit.nydailynews.com) (...) "They're not patriots," he (Michael Moore-ed.) said of those who disagree with him and his new movie. "They're hate-triots." Ha-ha, very clever. (GOOGLE) GO P.com :: Democrat Wackadoos ... Friday, May 28, 2004 Democrat Wackadoos. Something to Yak About ??? Democrat Wackadoos Saying that John Kerry???s advisers ... www.rnc.org/news/read.aspx?ID=4249 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: FSU-Miami (one more opinion) ... in common: they both despise the Chicken Littles of U-Florida and ND, the two most rabid, froth-at- the-mouth collections of *wackadoos* ( :-) in college ... rec.sport.football.college - Oct 1, 1992 by Robert Jones - View Thread (17 articles) (GOOGLE) BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion - Michael ... ... sure why I'm wasting my time countering an irrelevent post, but I wrote this last night: I just read an article that used a new term, "hate-triot", that really ... www.bladeforums.com/forums/ showthread.php?t=304379&page=1 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages Michael Moore Rocks the Convention ... Yes, he does call conservatives "hate-triots." Yes, he does say that Republicans wake up every day "at 6:00 in the morning" so they can "figure out which ... alt.politics.bush - Jul 28, 2004 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Majority of Americans believe Bush Exagerated ... The bottom line is, for this "hate-triot" at least, there was enough evidence to take Saddam out to begin with. It wasn't necessary to build a better case. ... alt.impeach.bush - Jul 8, 2003 by bSirius - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Vive Italy!!!! Re: Berlusconi is a clown and doesn't ... ... I do not like or dislike her, but I would vote for her just to enjoy the screaming apoplectic reaction of the fascist hate-triots like Sean Hannity... soc.culture.german - Jul 7, 2003 by Paolo Pizzi - View Thread (171 articles) From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 02:28:17 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:17 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20mmmkay=3F=20and=20i?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ts=20kin?= Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ...? i had noticed it years >> before that, but (since i didn't have the feature myself) hadn't >> realized that it was a specifically american thing. >i believe that this is one case where we can't blame canada. >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) One recent print example: How To Meet Cute Boys by Deanna Kizis (Hardcover - October 2003) ? Excerpt from page 80 "... at me. "Why don't I just give you the quotes, mkay?" I was so flattered by her attention, I threw journalistic ..." From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jul 29 04:38:06 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:38:06 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Black generals > > finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a > > military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. > > Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" among > other things is an official position, the chief administrative > officer of a > unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position > is too busy with > paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an "aide" > however vary from general to general and frequently involves > being a manservant. > (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide > and a chief of > staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) A general would not be an aide de camp to another general. Aides are typically up-and-coming junior officers. Nor would I describe an aide as a "manservant." In the 18th and 19th centuries, aides would be the ones to carry the general's orders to various subordinate commanders on the battlefield. As such, they would have to understand, interpret, and explain the general's orders and intent. In the 20th century, an aide would be more accurately described as "executive assistant." On occasion they might make coffee, but they are not valets. Aides are selected because they are bright, young officers with a future who are given a chance to witness and learn the high-level military decision-making process. The manservant role would be filled by an "orderly," an enlisted man who takes care of the general's personal needs, shines his boots, brings him meals, etc. Generals in the US Army no longer have orderlies, although they do have drivers who may take on some of the traditional duties of the orderly when not behind the wheel. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 05:22:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:22:52 EDT Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) Message-ID: The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization has been stuck on 1964 for weeks now. One of the things that I'm waiting for (aside from the California roll, granola, and trail mix) is "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford." I'll provide some other posts for it. A recent book on American desserts insists that this is from the late 1960s, but that sounds too early. ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS by Judith M. Fertig Boston: Harvard Common Press 2003 Pg. 402: _The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford_ The year was 1966. (...) Robert Redford was about to become a Hollywood heartthrob by starring in _Barefoot in the Park_ with Jane Fonda. General Foods Corporation launched Cool Whip nondairy whipped topping. Almost immediately, American cooks, freed from the not-so-arduous task of whipping real cream, became almost giddy with this sense of dessert freedom--and with the smooth, creamy taste of this nondairy whipped topping. Desserts with improbable names like "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford" or "Can't Leave it Alone"--the two I have in my recipe collection--were hastily written down on recipe cards. 1966 seems too early, based on the below...I've never eaten Robert Redford, but I've eaten Paul Newman. 1 September 1982, POST STANDARD (Syracuse, NY), pg. D-7, col. 1: By BETSY BALSLEY The Los Angeles Times (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Some of these recipes have decidedly provocative names. Who, for instance, could resist trying a dessert called The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford or a cake entitled Better Than Sex? Here are a few of the recipes that have found a home in my personal recipe file during the last year: _THE NEXT BEST THING_ _TO ROBERT REDFORD_ 1 cup flour 1 to 2 cups butter or margarine, softened 1 cup finely-chopped pecans 1 (8-ounce) package of cream cheese, softened 1 cup sugar 1 (8-ounce) carton of frozen non-dairy whipped topping, thawed 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant vanilla pudding mix 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant chocolate pudding mix 3 cups cold milk Grated chocolate candy bar, optional Prepare bottom crust by mixing together flour, butter and pecans until crumblike. Press mixture into (Col. 3-ed.) greased 13-by-9-inch baking pan. Bake at 350 degrees 15 to 20 minutes until lightly golden. Cool. Beat cream cheese with sugar until smooth. Fold in half of whipped topping. Spread mixture over cooled crust. COmbine vanilla and chocolate pudding mixes. Beat in milk until smooth and thickened. Spread over cream cheese layer. Spread remaining whipped topping over top. Sprinkle with grated chocolate candy bar, if desired. Cover and refrigerate overnight. Makes 16 servings. The origin of this cake is in doubt. The recipe has been passed from food editor to food editor all around the country. However, it does seem likely that it had its beginnings somewhere along the eastern seaboard where, according to Helen Moore, food editor of the Charlotte (N.C.) Observer, "people like sweet and gooey desserts." _BETTER THAN SEX CAKE_ 1 (18 1/2-ounce) package of yellow cake mix 1 (1-pound, 4-ounce) can of crushed pineapple 1 cup of sugar 1 (6-ounce) package of vanilla pudding mix 1 cup whipping cream, whipped and sweetened COconut, lightly toasted Prepare cake in 13-by-9-inch baking pan and bake according to package directions. Combine crushed pineapple and sugar in saucepan and bring to boil. Cool slightly. When baked cake has cooled, poke holes in it with fork. Pour pineapple mixture over it. Prepare pudding mix according to package directions. Cool. Spread prepared pudding over top. Chill. Just before serving, cover with sweetened whipped cream and sprinkle with coconut. If desired, garnish with pineapple slices. Makes 12 to 16 servings. 24 August 1982, Syracuse (NY) HERALD-JOURNAL, pg. D-12, col. 5: Several readers responded to Jane Eckley's request for Robert Redford pie. Here is one version from Mrs. Mary Falcone, who says she uses a cake instead of pie dish. Mrs. Falcone called the recipe "the next best thing to Robert Redford." _ROBERT REDFORD PIE_ Crust: 1 cup flour 1/2 cup margarine 1 cup chopped walnuts Combine and press into bottom of 9x133 cake pan. Bake 20 minutes at 350 degrees. Cool. Mix: 8-ounce package cream cheese 1 cup non-dairy whipped topping 1 cup powdered sugar Spread over cooled crust. In a large bowl combine and stir until thick: 1 box instant chocolate pudding 1 box instant vanilla pudding 2 cups milk Stir until thick. Pour over first 2 layers (crust and cream cheese mixture). Cover with additional whipped toppin. If desired, grate small chocolate bar over top for garnish. WIll keep covered up to 2 weeks in refrigerator or may be frozen. OT: WHERE IN THE WORLD IS BARRY POPIK?--New York CIty WHAT DID BARRY POPIK HAVE FOR DINNER?--Afghan cuisine, at Pamir on Second Avenue and East 75th Street. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 05:26:10 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:26:10 -0700 Subject: another coordination example Message-ID: here's another intriguing coordination example, from Randy Jensen, "City looks to keep car dealers?, Palo Alto Daily News 7/28/04, p. 2: ------ The concessions from the dealerships are an effort to help maintain a sales tax base that has recently been rocked by the potential loss of the Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development. ------ ok, let's take this apart. the crucial part is the relative clause: with its head -- (1) "Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development". the relative clause itself can be paraphrased as (2) "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development." now, (2) is a pretty ordinary example of Gapping: "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." a coordination of two clauses, the second of which is missing (part of) its verbal piece. so how do we get the relative clause? by "extraction" of the NP "Hyatt Rickeys" from one of the two clauses of (2) (the first). (excuse the transformational terminology.) but this is a violation of the Coordinate Structure Constraint (from Ross's 1968 dissertation). some might think this was an insuperable problem. but i don't find (1) at all bad. (see my Language Log posting at http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001266.html for some other conflicts between theory and (my) judgments.) what (1) feels like to me is some other well-known apparent counterexamples to the CSC, like (3) "I'll give you some things that I rushed downtown and bought". (not Gapping, but a more ordinary type of reduced coordination.) the usual observation about (3) is that what makes it ok is the unity of the event denoted by "I rushed downtown and bought [some things]." and that kind of unity is there, i think, in "Hyatt Rickey's will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. but (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jul 29 09:41:59 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:41:59 +0100 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As I've said here before, women don't > understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't > nary nobody oblected!) In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as Connie Eble, Edith Folb (black slang by the way), and Julie Chapman (currently writing a multi-volume history of slang dictionaries), and the peerless slang bibliophile sans pareil Madeleine Kripke, my partner Susan Ford works with me day in day out on my slang researches. I believe she may even understand what she's doing. Jonathon Green From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 12:58:26 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:58:26 -0400 Subject: dog robber Message-ID: DOG ROBBER : any AIDE or REMF; so-called for their practice of taking from the field soldier to provide for the commander and staff [cf: British "bulldog" assistant to proctor]. Also, a Naval officer in CIVVIES while ashore on leave; compare MUFTI. Found at: http://www.combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/MILTERMS.HTM I first recall this from the movie The Americanization of Emily in which James Garner plays an admiral's dog robber. Page Stephens From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Thu Jul 29 13:28:12 2004 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel E. Shuttlesworth) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:28:12 -0500 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > for? M to which the original poster replied > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > worms , > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? Rachel ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 13:40:11 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:40:11 -0700 Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) Message-ID: FWIW, Redi-Wip was redily available by the late 1950s, and IIRC Kool-Wip (sp?) was out ca1960. JL Robert Redford's Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Next Best Thing to Robert Redford (1966?, 1982) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization has been stuck on 1964 for weeks now. One of the things that I'm waiting for (aside from the California roll, granola, and trail mix) is "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford." I'll provide some other posts for it. A recent book on American desserts insists that this is from the late 1960s, but that sounds too early. ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS by Judith M. Fertig Boston: Harvard Common Press 2003 Pg. 402: _The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford_ The year was 1966. (...) Robert Redford was about to become a Hollywood heartthrob by starring in _Barefoot in the Park_ with Jane Fonda. General Foods Corporation launched Cool Whip nondairy whipped topping. Almost immediately, American cooks, freed from the not-so-arduous task of whipping real cream, became almost giddy with this sense of dessert freedom--and with the smooth, creamy taste of this nondairy whipped topping. Desserts with improbable names like "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford" or "Can't Leave it Alone"--the two I have in my recipe collection--were hastily written down on recipe cards. 1966 seems too early, based on the below...I've never eaten Robert Redford, but I've eaten Paul Newman. 1 September 1982, POST STANDARD (Syracuse, NY), pg. D-7, col. 1: By BETSY BALSLEY The Los Angeles Times (...)(Col. 2--ed.) Some of these recipes have decidedly provocative names. Who, for instance, could resist trying a dessert called The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford or a cake entitled Better Than Sex? Here are a few of the recipes that have found a home in my personal recipe file during the last year: _THE NEXT BEST THING_ _TO ROBERT REDFORD_ 1 cup flour 1 to 2 cups butter or margarine, softened 1 cup finely-chopped pecans 1 (8-ounce) package of cream cheese, softened 1 cup sugar 1 (8-ounce) carton of frozen non-dairy whipped topping, thawed 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant vanilla pudding mix 1 (6 3/4-ounce) package instant chocolate pudding mix 3 cups cold milk Grated chocolate candy bar, optional Prepare bottom crust by mixing together flour, butter and pecans until crumblike. Press mixture into (Col. 3-ed.) greased 13-by-9-inch baking pan. Bake at 350 degrees 15 to 20 minutes until lightly golden. Cool. Beat cream cheese with sugar until smooth. Fold in half of whipped topping. Spread mixture over cooled crust. COmbine vanilla and chocolate pudding mixes. Beat in milk until smooth and thickened. Spread over cream cheese layer. Spread remaining whipped topping over top. Sprinkle with grated chocolate candy bar, if desired. Cover and refrigerate overnight. Makes 16 servings. The origin of this cake is in doubt. The recipe has been passed from food editor to food editor all around the country. However, it does seem likely that it had its beginnings somewhere along the eastern seaboard where, according to Helen Moore, food editor of the Charlotte (N.C.) Observer, "people like sweet and gooey desserts." _BETTER THAN SEX CAKE_ 1 (18 1/2-ounce) package of yellow cake mix 1 (1-pound, 4-ounce) can of crushed pineapple 1 cup of sugar 1 (6-ounce) package of vanilla pudding mix 1 cup whipping cream, whipped and sweetened COconut, lightly toasted Prepare cake in 13-by-9-inch baking pan and bake according to package directions. Combine crushed pineapple and sugar in saucepan and bring to boil. Cool slightly. When baked cake has cooled, poke holes in it with fork. Pour pineapple mixture over it. Prepare pudding mix according to package directions. Cool. Spread prepared pudding over top. Chill. Just before serving, cover with sweetened whipped cream and sprinkle with coconut. If desired, garnish with pineapple slices. Makes 12 to 16 servings. 24 August 1982, Syracuse (NY) HERALD-JOURNAL, pg. D-12, col. 5: Several readers responded to Jane Eckley's request for Robert Redford pie. Here is one version from Mrs. Mary Falcone, who says she uses a cake instead of pie dish. Mrs. Falcone called the recipe "the next best thing to Robert Redford." _ROBERT REDFORD PIE_ Crust: 1 cup flour 1/2 cup margarine 1 cup chopped walnuts Combine and press into bottom of 9x133 cake pan. Bake 20 minutes at 350 degrees. Cool. Mix: 8-ounce package cream cheese 1 cup non-dairy whipped topping 1 cup powdered sugar Spread over cooled crust. In a large bowl combine and stir until thick: 1 box instant chocolate pudding 1 box instant vanilla pudding 2 cups milk Stir until thick. Pour over first 2 layers (crust and cream cheese mixture). Cover with additional whipped toppin. If desired, grate small chocolate bar over top for garnish. WIll keep covered up to 2 weeks in refrigerator or may be frozen. OT: WHERE IN THE WORLD IS BARRY POPIK?--New York CIty WHAT DID BARRY POPIK HAVE FOR DINNER?--Afghan cuisine, at Pamir on Second Avenue and East 75th Street. W --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 13:53:05 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:53:05 -0700 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: Not me. JL "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" Organization: University of Alabama Libraries Subject: Twitchy? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > for? M to which the original poster replied > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > worms , > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? Rachel ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 14:27:49 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:27:49 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when you thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it makes no sense. Well the other day I was watching a tv program about Clarence Birdseye and the invention of frozen foods on The History Channel, and an expert on the subject used the same word. Penny damned near fell out of her chair laughing and said something like, "And I thought you were the only person who was dumb enough to use that word, but I guess I was wrong." Anyone else ever hear it used? Page Stephens From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 29 14:31:36 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:31:36 -0400 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <004101c47578$3a6d8d80$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0400, Page Stephens wrote: > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it makes > no sense. OED has an entry for this, helpfully defined as "To thaw", with cites from 1598 (admittedly labelled "Now dial."). We have a decent number of recent examples too. Reasonable amount of relevant evidence on Google. JTS From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jul 29 14:50:57 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:50:57 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Jul 2004 to 28 Jul 2004 (#2004-211) In-Reply-To: <20040729040514.4812922885@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ron Butters wrote: >>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:17 EDT From: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20mmmkay=3F=20and=20i?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ts=20kin?= IE9uIEp1bCAyLCAyMDA0LCBhdCA5OjUwIEFNLCBBcm5vbGQgWndpY2t5IHdyb3RlOgoKPj4g Li4uwqAgaSBoYWQgbm90aWNlZCBpdCB5ZWFycwo+PiBiZWZvcmUgdGhhdCwgYnV0IChzaW5j ZSBpIGRpZG4ndCBoYXZlIHRoZSBmZWF0dXJlIG15c2VsZikgaGFkbid0Cj4+IHJlYWxpemVk IHRoYXQgaXQgd2FzIGEgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IGFtZXJpY2FuIHRoaW5nLgoKPmkgYmVsaWV2 [...] <<< Ron, would you mind repeating that in plain text? Or just in text? Or in English? :-) -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 15:01:20 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:01:20 -0400 Subject: Twitchy? Message-ID: It reminds me of the term "wiggers" which comes from a contraction of white and niggers which I have heard used by white teenage boys who do their best to imitate blacks in terms of hip hop, etc. so perhaps this is a form of slang formation which is current but with which I am not an expert on. In terms of wiggers I have heard it used by white kids as something to be proud of and by black kids who use it to put them down. It reminds me on some levels of cockney rhyming slang because it depends on its validity on rules of word formation since you have to look back to the origins of the terms and not to the actual pronunciation with which it has very little relation. Thus as an old cockney friend might say if I had hit my head, "You have a bump on your lump, Mite." which would mean that I had a bump on my head ie. lump of lead. Or if someone would say that his feet were sore he would say, "Your plites are sore, mite." which would mean that your plates of meat, ie. feet, were hurting you. I hope that this is of some use to you. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:28 AM Subject: Twitchy? > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" > Organization: University of Alabama Libraries > Subject: Twitchy? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently > referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded with > > > I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old > > for? M > > to which the original poster replied > > > Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can of > > worms , > > BUT Twitch = teen and witch. > > Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater Rhodes > > and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to tell > > them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they are > > always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention The > > Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did have > > some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. > > I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L > archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I > wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? > > Rachel > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ > > Rachel E. Shuttlesworth > Council on Library and Information Resources Post-Doctoral Fellow > University of Alabama Libraries > Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 > Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 > rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:10:11 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:10:11 -0400 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291431.AVK99953@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:17:13 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:17:13 -0400 Subject: Twitchy? In-Reply-To: <200407291501.AVL03136@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:20:48 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:20:48 -0500 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291427.i6TERs45000753@relay2.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used literally; go figure) unloosen/loosen bone/debone and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it is really two different words that have become identical) Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho sometimes it means Dennis Preston) Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:03:45 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:03:45 -0700 Subject: another coordination example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 10:26 PM, i wrote: > ...this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. > but > (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate > sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. that last example should have been Gapped: "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy sashimi". definitely asterisk time... arnold From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:12:43 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:12:43 -0500 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for comments from ADS listmembers. 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often semantically empty. 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both geographically and socially. Jim Parish From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jul 29 16:22:38 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:22:38 -0700 Subject: Twitchy? In-Reply-To: <20040729135305.25657.qmail@web61306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Not me. > > "Rachel E. Shuttlesworth" wrote: > > On another list I'm on, one related to library doings, someone recently > referred to "teen goths and twitchy types". Another member responded > with > >> I have to ask the question, what is twitchy types? A slang I'm too old >> for? M > > to which the original poster replied > >> Oh boy, I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask because it's another can >> of >> worms , >> BUT Twitch = teen and witch. >> Mostly those who are interested in Wicca. Books by Amelia Atwater >> Rhodes >> and the Sweep Series are examples of what was on the list. I love to >> tell >> them that Ameila started writing and publishing when she was 13--they >> are >> always amazed and pleased. It also opens the door for me to mention >> The >> Outsiders. My readings lists were only fiction titles, though we did >> have >> some non-fiction titles on the subject of Twitch. > > I've not heard this blend before and didn't find it in the ADS-L > archives. A google search shows refs to Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I > wonder if it started there or elsewhere. Are y'all familiar with it? a possibly contributing factor is the famous "twitch" (of the nose) that Samantha used to perform magical feats on the 60s tv comedy Bewitched. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 16:26:53 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:26:53 EDT Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: Don't forget pants/depants Always been my favorite. -doug In a message dated 7/29/2004 10:33:42 AM Central Standard Time, debaron at UIUC.EDU writes: Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 16:57:06 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:57:06 -0700 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? JL Dennis Baron wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: Unthaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used literally; go figure) unloosen/loosen bone/debone and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it is really two different words that have become identical) Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho sometimes it means Dennis Preston) Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.ed --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 17:00:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:00:33 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: I second all your observations but No. 1. I believe I use both terms on occasion, but don't know where I picked them up. Surely in NYC as a child, but I don't know if they're typical of NYC speech. JL Jim Parish wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jim Parish Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for comments from ADS listmembers. 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often semantically empty. 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both geographically and socially. Jim Parish --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jul 29 17:03:01 2004 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:03:01 -0500 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <200407291212.33410921fbc7@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I can give you personal data if that helps. I'm from Pittsburgh originally, though I've traveled a lot which may have influenced my speech. But I often say "who all" and "what all" In my mind, they're not hyphenated. Here is the context in which I find myself using these: "Who all came to the party last night?" "What all do we need from the store?" Not sure if that helps any, but I don't perceive it as a Southernism, since I don't say "you-all" (I'm a "yinz" person myself. Patti Kurtz English Department Minot State University Minot, ND -- Ed Straker: It's just lucky for her that an alien came through that door instead of her husband From CPASS234 at AOL.COM Thu Jul 29 17:09:38 2004 From: CPASS234 at AOL.COM (Charlotte Pass) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:09:38 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: As a native Southerner who grew up in the foothills of the Appalachians, I certainly recognize (and often use) "who-all," "what-all" and "where-all". My extended family members have utilized these words as long as I can remember. It gets really tricky trying to transcribe interviews with some of them because of sentences such as, "So, where all're youins goin' to?" Most of the usage is limited to questioning or to restatements of questions. Ex. - He asked us whereall we'd been. With regard to the status of the hyphen, I must admit that I've never seen these words in written form. In my "neck of the woods" we limit their usage to oral exchanges. I would be curious to hear what others have to say about these words as well. Charlotte L. Pass The University of Alabama College of Education Secondary Education Curriculum, Teaching, and Learning 204 Graves Hall Tuscaloosa, AL 35487 From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 29 18:35:10 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:35:10 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:27:49 -0400 Page Stephens writes: > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when > you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since > it makes > no sense. My bugaboo is "hot water heater" for what is in fact a cold water heater. Hot water doesn't need heating. From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:25:16 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: <200407291745.i6THjXOa016319@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I believe I once proposed amphibology, but I wasn't particularly serious. dennis On Jul 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. > > Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? > > JL > > Dennis Baron wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: Re: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites > (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. > Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). > > These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: > > ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) > literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally > is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used > literally; go figure) > unloosen/loosen > bone/debone > and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it > is really two different words that have become identical) > > Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho > sometimes it means Dennis Preston) > > > > > > Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 > Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 > Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 > University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > debaron at uiuc.ed > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > From debaron at UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:26:06 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:26:06 -0500 Subject: language birth Message-ID: Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world language and I want to say that one option for the future of English could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance languages, only more recent? Dennis From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 18:44:52 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:52 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281012.1bPRYC1Kb3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 1:12 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:14:18 -0400, > Wilson Gray writes inter alia: > >> the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War > > In 1970 or 1971 I checked out a book from the library of Fort Myer, > Virginia. > Stamped inside the front cover was the notice "For the use of colored > troops > at Fort Sill". The book was "Paul Revere and the World He Lived In" by > Esther Forbes, which had a first hardcover edition of 1942, so it > appears that the > expression "colored troops" (I don't remember if it were capitalized) > was > still in official use, at least by Army librarians, during World War > II. > > (I remember this notice due to the irony of juxtaposing the iconic Paul > Revere with segregated libraries.) During the Civil War, the United States Army also had a Corps d'Afrique. And I'll bet you thought Hitler was first to come up with that!;-) > >> Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white >> generals. > > Are you sure you mean "adjutant" and not "aide de camp"? "Adjutant" > among > other things is an official position, the chief administrative officer > of a > unit, and the average officer who holds such a title and position is > too busy with > paperwork to have time to be a general's flunky. The duties of an > "aide" > however vary from general to general and frequently involves being a > manservant. > (A riddle I once heard: What's the difference between an aide and a > chief of > staff? The aide also fixes coffee.) > > - James A. Landau > You are, in fact, absolutely correct. I must admit that I meant > neither. Rather, I was exaggerating for effect, the fact of the matter > being that, prior to Vietnam, what few black flag-grade officers that > there were always deputy commanders. l had in mind specifically the > case of Air Force LtGen Benjamin Oliver Davis, Jr., the second black > person to be come a general officer in the US military. His father, > Army BrGen Benjamin Oliver Davis, was the first. He retired at that > rank, knowing that he would never rise any higher. As Junior rose > through the ranks, he was continually shifted from one end of the > earth to the other, if necessary, so that he was ever a deputy, never > a commander. And, of course, there was no way that he was going to get > that fourth star without ever having truly held command. This changed > in Vietnam. Black soldiers of whatever rank - well, they had at least > to hold the lowest NCO rank, corporal - were, for the first time, > finally permitted to lead white troops as well as black ones in the > field during a time of war. Without Vietnam, there would never have > been a Gen Colin Powell, USA, Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. When > Rev. King came out against that war, I thought that he had gone off > the deep end. The war was none of his business. Besides, he'd never > served in any branch of the military. What did he know! I wanted to > shout the punch line of an old joke: "Shut up! Mr. James is robbing > this train!" -Wilson Gray From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:46:36 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:46:36 -0700 Subject: Unthaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That sounds like either the study of frogs or a medical term for some distasteful growth, disease or procedure. (Do we need a word for that?) * E.g.: "Patient No. 5537118 has an amphibology on his left forearm." Or: "Mr. Smith, I'm afraid we're going to have to do an amphibology." I vote for "ipsonyms." Peter Mc. --On Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:25 PM -0500 Dennis Baron wrote: > I believe I once proposed amphibology, but I wasn't particularly > serious. > dennis > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Unthaw >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> They need a name that intro to linguistics students can memorize. >> >> Allow me to suggest "ipsonyms." Or is that taken? >> >> JL >> >> Dennis Baron wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dennis Baron >> Subject: Re: Unthaw >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Thaw/unthaw is just one of several words that mean their own opposites >> (sounds like a talk show topic, like planets that eat their own moons. >> Tomorrow, on Oprah, words that mean their own opposites). >> >> These are common enough -- altho there is no technical term for them: >> >> ravel/unravel (knitting up the raveled sleeve of care) >> literally/figuratively (she was literally climbing the walls--literally >> is seldom used literally, whereas figuratively is always used >> literally; go figure) >> unloosen/loosen >> bone/debone >> and of course cleave (which means both cling to and separate, though it >> is really two different words that have become identical) >> >> Dennis (that's me, and so far as I know that's all it means, tho >> sometimes it means Dennis Preston) >> >> >> >> >> >> Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 >> Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 >> Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 >> University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www >> 608 S. Wright St. >> Urbana, IL 61801 >> debaron at uiuc.ed >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. >> ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Thu Jul 29 19:20:20 2004 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: language birth Message-ID: QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. THOMAS PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: language birth > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: > are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? > > Dennis > From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Thu Jul 29 19:42:29 2004 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:42:29 -0500 Subject: language birth Message-ID: It seems to me that the only languages with "births" you can pinpoint would be created ones, although they, too, are created out of something. There could be a good argument for advancing symbol systems, such as COBOL, perhaps, in terms of machine language, although I assume that such symbol sets may not fit the general requirement for language -- being known to a large community. That may be changing, however, as more people communicate through such systems. I assume that's true of niche "languages" as well, even if they are thoughtfully constructed and known to certain groups (Trekkies, Lord of the Rings fans etc.) But what about Esperanto? In the late 60s and 70s, Esperanto was actually an elective in my (fairly conservative) Texas high school. With such a constructed language, one might at least pin down a birth point, though the universal language concept seems to be dying (or to have died) a slow death. Susan Yerkes -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas Paikeday Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: language birth QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. THOMAS PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Baron" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: language birth > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- ----- > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is > this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? > > Dennis > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 20:27:37 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:27:37 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281828.1bPZIB1kG3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even libraries bought it. > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. Thanks for the cite re Davis. > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. That's great! I love it! -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 29 20:52:06 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:52:06 -0400 Subject: Re 2: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407281828.1bPZIB1kG3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. > > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. I forgot to mention that the book that I referred to was published in the late '70's or early '80's. Hence, its author may well have been familiar with the above saying. Too bad. This lessens the impact of the opening lines of the novel on me, given that they may not be entirely original. Oh, well. That's life. But, what the hell? Not even Homer and Shakespeare were entirely original. -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 29 21:55:34 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:55:34 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Wilson, I've been running several WorldCat searches for a novel called "The Private," published between 1950 and 1975 and have come up with nothing on the one hand and "more than 10,000" irrelevant titles on the other. Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down without an author. I read "From Here to Eternity" in high school. (NOT homework, obviously.) It was great. Twenty-five years later it was still great. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were > another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose > fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical > savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against > Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many > ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young > and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. > > Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or > "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go > back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even libraries bought it. > You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The > best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful > "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. > On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness > that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality > than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more > youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the > Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. > > Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on > his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true > enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in > "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of > memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has > written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at > Indiana U. now.) "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. Thanks for the cite re Davis. > > Old saying (circa 1968): > > "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy > story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, > this is no shit...'. That's great! I love it! -Wilson > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >> >> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >> >> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >> -- or was it? > > No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was > drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was > also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= > Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd > and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, Processing > Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a > non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally > assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we > were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey Marys" > by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & > Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the > Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= > homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both > Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of the > Security Agency as an Animal. > >> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I taught >> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) was >> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >> stereotypical reinforcement. > > I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war > flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed > and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and had > bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that we > whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and > cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, > back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse > Now far more palatable. > > Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a bad > - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, > e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I > even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and > Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody > understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was being > deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks > were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly > putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in danger. > And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted > that battle scene in this way. >> >> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >> been written by black GI's. > > I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But > it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, my > favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin > the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" > underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old > soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by > alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will proceed >> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white troops >> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >> as >> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a consequence, >> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only black >> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >> general, >> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >> the >> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >> >> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common term >> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >> >> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >> was >> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white generals. >> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see the >> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >> you >> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this had >>> been reduced to "rads." >>> >>> JL >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>> >>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>> tell >>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based on >>> German "sprechen" speak. >>> >>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>> as >>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>> as >>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as the >>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>> like >>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>> >>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I saw >>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>> problem >>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>> by >>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - man-in-the-street >>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>> of >>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even if >>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>> to >>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's would >>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>> street. >>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>> turn >>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>> meal >>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>> >>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>> didn't >>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible to >>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>> white >>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>> >>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to me, >>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>> beautiful in Europe." >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 29 23:05:43 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:05:43 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <20040729215535.32208.qmail@web61304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >without an author. Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another candidate with the same title.) -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 30 01:57:17 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:17 -0700 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German Message-ID: Doug, Bingo! And one of the 260 libraries worldwide that has it is - our own! Thanks for the tip! JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >without an author. Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another candidate with the same title.) -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 02:16:18 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:16:18 -0400 Subject: Unthaw Message-ID: An example moving in the opposite direction: inflammable/flammable. A. Murie From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 02:40:46 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:40:46 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <200407290912.1bQdwp6Y73NZFk70@mamo> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 12:12 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I > find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in > writing, > but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just > conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online > acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for > comments from ADS listmembers. > > 1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands > dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although > several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but > not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. > > 2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the > written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) > > 3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, > "Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few > notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a > complete > roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use > them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often > semantically empty. In a version of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek, "it" shouts, "Who-all ain't hid, holler 'eyeball'!" Clearly, *all* the people who haven't hidden are expected to respond to respond, as is obvious to anyone from other versions, "Everybody ain't hid, say 'aye'!" and "All that ain't hid, holler 'aye'!" These versions are from Cairo, IL; Saint Louis, MO; and Marshall, TX, respectively, and all are versions played by black children. -Wilson Gray > > 4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, > rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although > one > claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative > contexts. > > 5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- > all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but > I do > not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- > all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. > > So. Does anyone on-list have any comments - or, better, solid data - on > these words? In particular, I'm interested in their distribution, both > geographically and socially. > > Jim Parish > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 03:29:39 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407291455.1bQiSi65t3NZFkl0@cockatoo> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 5:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson, I've been running several WorldCat searches for a novel called > "The Private," published between 1950 and 1975 and have come up with > nothing on the one hand and "more than 10,000" irrelevant titles on > the other. > > Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down > without an author. Thank you for your effort, Jon. I greatly appreciate it. I tossed my copy back in the '60's during an annual cleaning of my room. Seemed like a good idea, at the time. This book also had a brief section debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the hand salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, given that they have far more respect for one another than they have for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute anyone wounded in combat, regardless of rank? You get the idea. -Wilson > I read "From Here to Eternity" in high school. (NOT homework, > obviously.) It was great. > Twenty-five years later it was still great. > > Jon > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Thanks, Wilson, for your thoughtful post. The Green Berets were >> another of the icons of Kennedy's New Frontier : super-commandos whose >> fighting and linguistic abilities, not to mention their sociopolitical >> savvy, were touted as America's toughest human weapons against >> Communism. It was a different and now seemingly exotic world in many >> ways, though drearily familiar in many others. It helped to be young >> and idealistic, of course - at least it did temporarily. >> >> Another word you may have been familiar with was "straightleg," or >> "leg": essentially anybody who was not "jumper." They might even go >> back to WWII, but there's no good evidence that I've seen. > > It was still "straightleg" in my day. I knew the term before I joined > the Army from war novels (I'm basically a very quiet, non-violent - > some may even say "cowardly" - but I enjoy the hell out of experiencing > violence vicariously.) Unfortunately, I no longer recall whether those > books were about WWII or Korea. On the other hand, "From Here to > Eternity" is one of my favorites. Another good one was "The Private," > which also had no combat scenes. It was a kind of WWII guy soap opera, > about how war can destroy your life, even if your experience of combat > is only what you read in Stars & Stripes. It had one of my favorite > closing: "I hate the Army!" Unfortunately, this was a paperback > original that didn't sell enough to attract much attention. Not even > libraries bought it. > >> You know, I haven't seen "Platoon" since it came out in 1986. The >> best critics (i.e., the ones that agree with me) think it's a powerful >> "film experience" (i.e., movie), but cluttered up with lurid cliches. >> On the other hand, few 18-year old filmgoers in ' 86 had the awareness >> that they WERE lurid cliches. It certainly came closer to reality >> than, say, "Sands of Iwo Jima," a film that supposedly inspired more >> youg men to join the Marines than any other single influence. (For the >> Army, it was "To Hell and Back.") > > Starring Audie Murphy, another native Texan. >> >> Around 1970, George Davis wrote a novel called "Coming Home" based on >> his experiences in the Air Force in Southeast Asia; it rang true >> enough. Otherwise (except for Wallace Terry's interviews in >> "Bloods"), black vets have written very, very little in the way of >> memoirs or fiction concerning the Vietnam War. Iusef Kumenyaa has >> written a memorable book of poetry, though. (I think he teaches at >> Indiana U. now.) > > "Bloods" was the book that I had in mind. "Blood," though it's only a > shortening of "blood brother," was a popular "sporting name" for > second-rate, gold Thunderbird convertible-driving pimps. Big pimps > rolling in the once-standard "white on white in white" Cadillac > convertible sported ordinary names, like "Tommy." They didn't need to > front. In my day in L.A., at least. Today's names of the type parodied > on SNL make me knot up: "Pimping Kyle," "White Chocolate," etc. > > Thanks for the cite re Davis. >> >> Old saying (circa 1968): >> >> "The only difference between a fairy story and a war story is a fairy >> story starts out, 'Once upon a time' and a war story starts out, 'Now, >> this is no shit...'. > > That's great! I love it! > > -Wilson > >> >> Jon >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >> German >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jul 27, 2004, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> Thank you much, Wilson, for the post. >>> >>> Am especially grateful for data on "The World" : yours is the first >>> reliable evidence that it antedates Vietnam, ca.1965. >>> >>> Please keep the data coming. Surely "grunt" wasn't in use in Germany >>> -- or was it? >> >> No, it wasn't. Since the greatest danger that we faced in Germany was >> drunk-driving, an infantryman was of little interest, unless he was >> also a Ranger, a Green Beret (a demi-god!), or at least a "jumper" [= >> Airborne]. These three commanded a hell of a lot of respect. The 503rd >> and the 504th Airborne Brigades were stationed near my unit, >> Processing >> Company, which was part of the 507th Army Security Agency Group, a >> non-combat unit. Knowing of the 503rd and the 504th, people naturally >> assumed that the 507th was also Airborne. So, off post, in civvies, we >> were held in awe. On post, however, we were derided as "Monterey >> Marys" >> by members of the unit that shared our post, Headquarters & >> Headquarters Company of the 507th, because we were graduates of the >> Army Language School in Monterey, CA, and, supposedly, marys [= >> homosexuals]. We, in turn, referred to them as "Animals." Both >> Processing and Head & Head joined in referring to any non-member of >> the >> Security Agency as an Animal. >> >>> The observation about the black GIs in "Platoon" is striking; I >>> taught >>> a course in "War & Literature" from 1999 till this past spring. I >>> assume (pointy-headed liberal that I am) that Stone (a real lefty) >>> was >>> eliciting sympathy for the guys who cracked, but if one has a >>> sufficiently afrophobic predisposition, it could be taken as another >>> stereotypical reinforcement. >> >> I was so shocked by that particular scene in an otherwise great war >> flick that the whole movie was blown for me. I was really disappointed >> and embarrassed. I thought that Stone "had a bad understanding" and >> had >> bought into the lie that "American society is now so integrated that >> we >> whites can go back to portraying blacks as fools, comic relief, and >> cowards unworthy of the white man's respect, just as we used to do, >> back in the good old days." I found Coppola's treatment in Apocalypse >> Now far more palatable. >> >> Of course, this is not to say that I don't enjoy a good - or even a >> bad >> - comedy based on (stereo)typical impressions of what blacks are like, >> e,g, School Daze, the Barbershop series, Undercover Brother. Shit, I >> even enjoyed "Amos 'n' Andy," Jack Benny's valet, Rochester, and >> Charlie Chan's chauffeur, Birmingham, back in the day. Everybody >> understands that that stuff "ain't necessarily so." But Stone was >> being >> deadly serious and supposedly showing it as it really was: that blacks >> were the first to crack under pressure, thereby needlessly/heedlessly >> putting the lives of brave, noble, freedom-loving white folk in >> danger. >> And, needless to say, it's hardly afrophobic of me to have interpreted >> that battle scene in this way. >>> >>> You've noticed how few (published) Vietnam memoirs and/or novels have >>> been written by black GI's. >> >> I'm aware of only a single volume of reminiscences and no novels. But >> it's been a couple of decades, at least, since I last checked. FWIW, >> my >> favorite opening is from a Vietnam War novel, "All war stories begin >> the same way. This is no shit." On the one hand, "This is no shit" >> underlines the author's opening assertion. On the other hand, when old >> soldiers in real life tell war stories, they really do begin by >> alleging, "This is no shit" as a matter of course. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>> German >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> As usual, I'm talking about ancient history. My arrival in Germany >>> ["After offloading (the first time that I'd ever heard this word) the >>> bus, officers and civilian personnel and their dependents will >>> proceed >>> to the first room. NCO's and their dependents will proceed to the >>> second room. Remaining personnel will proceed to the third room." And >>> we found ourselves back outside in the snowstorm] was in 1/961, >>> predating the Berlin Wall. At that time, black troops and white >>> troops >>> did not interact socially. Black was as socially separate from white >>> as >>> in any segregated, stomp-down Mississippi backwater. As a >>> consequence, >>> if white GI's used "hitting the strasse" at that time, it's not >>> something that I could have known anything about. Likewise, only >>> black >>> troops referred to any German or Germans as "Cumrad," for which, as I >>> said, there was no other form, regardless of the number of Germans >>> referred to. In fact, the entire German nation was "Cumrad" when it >>> became necessary to refer to it. Things being as they were, in >>> general, >>> the only whites that I had occasion to talk to were the officers and >>> the long-service NCO's in command who still used "Krauts" for the >>> Germans. They referred to the US as "The States" or as the "Land of >>> the >>> Big PX," whereas the "Unites States Colored Troops," to revive a term >>> from the Civil War, referred to the US as "The World." >>> >>> As you probably know, during the Vietnam War, when the spelling >>> "Viet-Nam" was still used, the term "The World" became the common >>> term >>> among all GI's for the usual reason: as some wise man once put it, >>> "Everybody wants to be a nigger, unless he is one.". >>> >>> At first, I was very much in favor of the war in Vietnam for a single >>> reason: this war was the first time in history in which integration >>> was >>> an *active* policy in any situation or in any location under the >>> control of the United States. Black soldiers became NCO's. Black >>> officers actually led white soldiers into battle, Black generals >>> finally *commanded,* instead of merely acting as the adjutants - a >>> military term meaning approximately "manservants" - of white >>> generals. >>> It appeared that the interracial millenium had finally arrived. When >>> you read the memoirs of black Vietnam vets, it's astounding to see >>> the >>> pride and joy with they served side by side with their white >>> brothers-in-arms. However, when you read the memoirs of white vets, >>> you >>> see that, to them, the black troops were merely the same old niggers >>> that they'd always been throughout American history. Even in war >>> movies like "Platoon," it's only the black soldiers who are shown >>> cracking under the pressure of combat, not the white soldiers who are >>> forced to save the lives of these worthless black fools. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> On Jul 26, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by >>>> German >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> - >>>> - >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> Thanks for the post, Wilson. Most of these are new to me. I have >>>> heard white GIs refer to "hitting the /strass@/." West Germans >>>> are/were referred to as "comrades" as indicated. By the '70s this >>>> had >>>> been reduced to "rads." >>>> >>>> JL >>>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> - >>>> - >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> "Bop the strahss" : go for a casual walk or stroll along the >>>> sidewalk(s) through town, just checking out the happenings, wherein >>>> "strahss" is clearly based on German "Strasse" street. >>>> >>>> "Put the shprekken on [someone]" : a host meanings, such as, provide >>>> someone with needed information; run a confidence game on someone; >>>> tell >>>> someone like it T I tiz; attempt to seduce a woman; tell someone the >>>> latest rumor or gossip, etc., wherein "shprekken" is clearly based >>>> on >>>> German "sprechen" speak. >>>> >>>> "Cumrad" : like "Comrade" [< G Kamerad] Mil. in W. Germany a German >>>> as >>>> in DHAS, but otherwise different. In WWII movies and comic books, >>>> Wehrmacht soldiers shout "Kamerad" and, perhaps, show a white flag, >>>> as >>>> a sign of surrender. Since then, black GI's have used "Cumrad" as >>>> the >>>> essential, insulting term for "German" in any context whatsoever, >>>> like >>>> "Kraut" used by white GI's. "Cumrad," however, is both singular and >>>> plural, plus collective and individuative. >>>> >>>> Hence, we would say, e.g. "I was going to bop the strahss, till I >>>> saw >>>> Cumrad." I was going to go for a walk till I saw how many indigenous >>>> personnel [the official military term] were on the street. The >>>> problem >>>> was that the average Doob(ie) - the insulting term for a German used >>>> by >>>> Russian-speaking GI's in the Army Security Agency - >>>> man-in-the-street >>>> tended to react with stunned, drop-jawed shock and awe to the sight >>>> of >>>> anyone who was obviously not a German (unless he was a Turk), even >>>> if >>>> he was white (German guys already wore, in the late '50's, what came >>>> to >>>> be known as the Beatle haircut, so that the fact that you weren't a >>>> German was given away by your GI haircut, even if you were otherwise >>>> white and relatively short), let alone black. So, no black GI's >>>> would >>>> want to walking, if there were a lot of Germans already on the >>>> street. >>>> Americans are taught at least to pretend not to stare. Not so with >>>> Cumrad. Being 6' 4" tall, weighing 205, and clearly of African >>>> descent, I LITERALLY STOPPED TRAFFIC! Cumrad would come from all >>>> directions to get a look at the monstrosity in their midst. And >>>> returning the look of Cumrad staring at you would not cause him to >>>> turn >>>> away, making you feel like a zoo animal. Cumrad would bring his >>>> children up to the table to stare at me, if I was trying to eat a >>>> meal >>>> in a restaurant. A five-year-old, pointing, shouted across the town >>>> plaza in Bernkastel, "Kuk, Mutti! Ein Mohr!" Look, Mom! A Moor!" >>>> >>>> Of course, since nobody put the shprekken on Cumrad, the Germans >>>> didn't >>>> realize that Cumrad was meant as an insult. Hence, it was possible >>>> to >>>> address a German as Cumrad under any set of circumstances and said >>>> German would always respond positively, thinking that we were >>>> addressing him as a "comrade," as opposed to the "Kraut" used by >>>> white >>>> GI's, and were, therefore, at least attempting to be friendly. >>>> >>>> "Fraw" and "Frawline" (of obvious origin) were used the same way >>>> syntactically, but differently semantically. Someone once said to >>>> me, >>>> "Frawline is the queen of Europe," i.e. "German women are the most >>>> beautiful in Europe." >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> Do you Yahoo!? >>>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 30 03:30:37 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:30:37 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <4108DBAB.19056.87E37AB@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:12 PM 7/29/2004, you wrote: >Recently I've been thinking about the words "what-all" and "who-all". I >find that I use them fairly often in speech and occasionally in writing, >but I don't recall hearing or seeing them particularly often. I just >conducted an informal and unscientific survey of some of my online >acquaintances, from various parts of the US, and I'd like to ask for >comments from ADS listmembers. I can only give my casual notions. I use these routinely (although probably not frequently), and I heard them routinely in my youth in Detroit. I hear them here in Pittsburgh nowadays, but I can't say how often, or whether more or less than elsewhere/elsewhen. >1) These words strike me as Southernisms. (I speak a North Midlands >dialect with a Southern tinge.) My informants seem to agree, although >several of them, like myself, speak non-Southern dialects. In most but >not all cases, they report a source of Southern influence. I don't have a strong feeling either way. >2) Orthographically, my informants are evenly split on whether the >written forms should be hyphenated. (I admit to being a hyphenophile.) Both styles seem OK to me, and I THINK I've seen both repeatedly. I like the hyphen myself. >3) Semantically, the "-all" acts as might be expected. In my speech, >"Who came to the party?" can be satisfied by the naming of a few >notables, while "Who-all came to the party?" is a request for a complete >roster. My informants agree, although one person who does not use >them, but hears them occasionally, suggests that the "-all" is often >semantically empty. I take the "-all" to be an explicit pluralization: e.g., "who" = "which person or persons", "who-all" = "which persons". I agree that "-all" tends to imply a complete inventory. >4) Syntactically, I use them in questions and negative statements, >rarely if ever in affirmatives. Most of my informants agree, although one >claims to be comfortable with them in at least some affirmative contexts. I don't know: I'd need some examples. >5) I also asked about such forms as "where-all", "how-all", and "when- >all". All of these strike me as possible (the last marginally so), but I do >not use them. One of my informants reports using "where-all" and "how- >all" occasionally and "when-all" very seldom. "Where-all" is routine for me. "When-all" seems hypothetically OK but I don't remember ever using or encountering it. "Which-all", "how-all", "why-all", "whither-all", etc. are unfamiliar and seem strange to me offhand. BTW: I use "y'all" = "you-all" myself when I want an explicitly plural "you". Here in Pittsburgh "y'uns" (theoretically = "you-ones" I guess) is conventional (although not all natives use it); "y'all"/"you-all" is also not uncommon here. -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 03:46:57 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:46:57 -0400 Subject: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by German In-Reply-To: <200407291605.1bQjYi4CG3NZFjV0@sparrow> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 7:05 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A couple of examples of black-GI slang influenced by > German > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Some library somewhere must have it, but it will be hard to track down >> without an author. > > Try Frank D. Gilroy (1970). (Don't know whether there's another > candidate > with the same title.) > > -- Doug Wilson Thank you! -Wilson Gray > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 04:54:59 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:54:59 EDT Subject: Pizza Margarita (1880?) Message-ID: www.barrypopik.com has been up about a week. I still don't have things in the proper order, or the 1924 "Big Apple" graphic scanned in yet. It recently got mentions in places such as Word Detective, eGullet, and Food History News. I was looking over some stuff for a possible pizza post, and realized that I didn't post this yet. The "Pizza Margarita" was thought to have been invented in 1889. Queen Margaret at Naples. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1880. p. 2 (1 page) _Queen Margaret at Naples._ >From the Geneva Gazette. Queen Margaret is in Naples at the palace of Capediamonte, and a story is related of her which explains the secret of her popularity among the people. A favorite eatable with the Neapolitans is the pizza, a sort of cake beaten flat in a round form, and seasoned with carious condiments. The Queen sent for a pizzaimole, who is famous for his skill in making these cakes, as she said "she wanted to eat likethe poor people." The man went to the palace, was received, and having shown a list of thirty-five varieties of pizza, was sent to the royal kitchen to make the kind which the Queen had selected. He made eight, which were the ideals of their kind, and the little Prince and his mother found them excellent, but to eat as the poor people in Naples eat--that is often not all, and is more than could be expected. But she has visited the poor quarter of Naples, and sympathizes with the misery she sees there. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 05:12:59 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:12:59 -0700 Subject: Language Files In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040727135702.01d65968@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later > ones; > my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the > audiotapes > soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish > (maybe I > should send Brian a set too!). the ideal thing to do here would be to write to rich janda at ohio state and offer copies to him. > Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've > become > too discursive and less workbookish. less workbookish, certainly. i think the compilers were hoping to make them more engaging, though. (but also more complete and self-standing. these things can work against one another.) > ..This fall though, I'm switching in my own > section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you > part of > that project? Any thoughts on it? not part of it at all; it was a san diego state thing. i haven't looked at it in detail, but it's strictly on english, so not really usable for an Intro to Language course. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 06:39:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:39:54 EDT Subject: Roller Derby (1922) Message-ID: NEWSPAPERARCHIVE Now Newspaperarchive welcomes me with "Welcome back, Manitoba Culture, Heritage, and Tourism!" I know that "Popik" is a hard spell, but this is ridiculous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ROLLER DERBY It's often said that Damon Runyon coined "Roller Derby," about 1935. Not so. It appears that Chicago had it first. Hey, it happens. Maybe I'll do a Chicago page, but it appears that someone else reading my web site has a similar idea. (OED) [1935 Chicago Tribune 13 Aug. 19/6 A 3000 mile roller skating derby will open at noon today when 50 skaters begin the long grind inside the main hall of the Coliseum.] 1936 N.Y. Times 11 Sept. 34/4 The *Roller Derby, first of the kind to be seen in New York, and in which fourteen teams of skaters composed of men and girls are entered, got well under way at the Hippodrome last night... The derby is a mythical race from Salt Lake City to New York. 1945 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. NET ASSOCIATION TO EYE TRIPS OF STARS FOR SIGNS OF "PROISM" Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 24, 1922. p. 20 (1 page): _ROLLER DERBY_ _ON TOMORROW_ Roland Cloni of Akron, world's champion roller skater, who yesterday tried out the track in the Broadway armory, where the national roller skating derby will be held this week, asserted new world's records can be established for flat tracks. The derby will open tomorrow and run until Saturday. 2. ED KRAHN AND LAUNEY SHARE ROLLER FIRSTS Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 29, 1922. p. 13 (1 page) 3. VON HOF FIRST IN TEN MILE ROLLER DERBY Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 1, 1922. p. 21 (1 page) 4. FRANCIS ALLEN 1ST IN 15 MILE BICYCLE RACE Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 14, 1924. p. 26 (1 page) 5. BAGGERLY APPROVES NEW RULE Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 21, 1935. p. A11 (1 page) 6. State's Wonders Exhibited; NEW FRUITS ON DISPLAY AT STORE May Company's Roof Show Exhibits Late Wonders of State's Agriculture Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 23, 1935. p. A3 (1 page) 7. SOX LOSE, 4-1; CUBS WHIP CARDINALS, 3-2; ROOT'S PITCHING STOP ST. LOUIS' WINNING STREAK 11th Triumph for Veteran. Root Halts Card Hitters; Cubs Win, 3-2 IRVING VAUGHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 12, 1935. p. 15 (2 pages) 8. Display Ad 21 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1935. p. 22 (1 page) 9. Display Ad 11 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 26, 1935. p. 13 (1 page) 10. Display Ad 19 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 30, 1935. p. 21 (1 page) From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 12:21:25 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:21:25 -0400 Subject: language birth Message-ID: The most fascinating created language I know of is Klingon which, of course stems from Star Trek. If anyone wants to find more about it they can find it at: http://www.kli.org Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yerkes, Susan" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:42 PM Subject: Re: language birth > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Yerkes, Susan" > Subject: Re: language birth > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > It seems to me that the only languages with "births" you can pinpoint > would be created ones, although they, too, are created out of something. > > > There could be a good argument for advancing symbol systems, such as > COBOL, perhaps, in terms of machine language, although I assume that > such symbol sets may not fit the general requirement for language -- > being known to a large community. That may be changing, however, as more > people communicate through such systems. > I assume that's true of niche "languages" as well, even if they are > thoughtfully constructed and known to certain groups (Trekkies, Lord of > the Rings fans etc.) > > But what about Esperanto? > > In the late 60s and 70s, Esperanto was actually an elective in my > (fairly conservative) Texas high school. > With such a constructed language, one might at least pin down a birth > point, though the universal language concept seems to be dying (or to > have died) a slow death. > > Susan Yerkes > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Thomas Paikeday > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:20 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: language birth > > > QUESTION FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH: > > Is the analogy of languages being born and dying like us animals correct > or useful? So-and-so may be said to have been born at 3:20 p.m. ET, July > 29, 2004, according to hospital records. Ditto for death. But can the > same be said of Latin and such "extinct" languages and "modern" > languages like Italian, French, etc.? More to the point of Dennis > Baron's question: A language could die by its speakers dying out, as it > happened to the Beothuks of Newfoundland. Even so, birth and death of > languages seem a very slow process with no clear boundaries between life > and death. An expert in Romance languages could probably tell us when > Late Latin (a vague and abstract term for what it's worth) became > differentiated and how long it took for the Romance languages to evolve > so much they became mutually unintelligible to their speakers, if that > is a good criterion of the birth of Italian et al. > > THOMAS PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Baron" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:26 PM > Subject: language birth > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Dennis Baron > > Subject: language birth > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > ----- > > > > Okay, this is probably a question I should know the answer to, but I > > can't think of an example. I'm writing about English as a world > > language and I want to say that one option for the future of English > > could be what happened to Latin, ie not death but a segue into a group > > > of related new languages. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is > > this: are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > > languages, only more recent? > > > > Dennis > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ > This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 12:31:25 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:31:25 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Wilson, When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in southern Illinois? Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:40 PM Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" > > In a version of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek, "it" shouts, "Who-all > ain't hid, holler 'eyeball'!" Clearly, *all* the people who haven't > hidden are expected to respond to respond, as is obvious to anyone from > other versions, "Everybody ain't hid, say 'aye'!" and "All that ain't > hid, holler 'aye'!" These versions are from Cairo, IL; Saint Louis, MO; > and Marshall, TX, respectively, and all are versions played by black > children. > > -Wilson Gray > > > From simon at IPFW.EDU Fri Jul 30 14:38:08 2004 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:38:08 -0500 Subject: Language Files Message-ID: Beverly, Yes, please, make copies of the tapes! thanks, beth beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 7/30/2004 12:12:59 AM >>> On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > How sad! But I still have the 1st edition, plus three or four later > ones; > my TAs use them all the time. I MUST make more copies of the > audiotapes > soon though, before I lose more; I can send you copies if you wish > (maybe I > should send Brian a set too!). the ideal thing to do here would be to write to rich janda at ohio state and offer copies to him. > Personally, I like the later LFs less than the earlier ones; they've > become > too discursive and less workbookish. less workbookish, certainly. i think the compilers were hoping to make them more engaging, though. (but also more complete and self-standing. these things can work against one another.) > ..This fall though, I'm switching in my own > section to _Relevant Linguistics_, out of Stanford's CSLI; were you > part of > that project? Any thoughts on it? not part of it at all; it was a san diego state thing. i haven't looked at it in detail, but it's strictly on english, so not really usable for an Intro to Language course. arnold From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 16:25:23 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:25:23 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Couple things. a.) I do use who-all, etc. often and afaik always have. b.) I don't think they imply completeness so much as just a list of things, or explicit pluralization. c.) Have we discussed explicit plural "all" insertions before? i.e. "I saw it all on Mulberry Street". I tried the archive but couldn't find anything. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 16:40:24 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:40:24 EDT Subject: language birth Message-ID: It's probably not what you're looking for, but constructed/planned languages quickly pop to mind. Esperanto begat Ido, etc.; Lojlan begat Logban... there are more. If that *is* what you're looking for, let me know and I can comb the files for relevant info. Other than that, what about using pidgins or creoles? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 16:55:24 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:55:24 -0700 Subject: lifestyle drug Message-ID: from Alex Frankel, Word Craft: The Art of Turning Little Words Into Big Business (NY: Crown, 2004), p. 144, just after the introduction of the term "lifestyle drug", in connection with the naming of drugs: ----- Traditional medical applications are concerned wit treating, controlling, or reducing the risk of serious medical conditions like high cholesterol, heart disease, and diabetes. Lifestyle drugs treat physical presentation (like dental care, acne, aging, hair loss, and weight control), performance (mental concentration in the workplace, stress reduction, sexual performance), and general well-being (pain reduction, mood regulation, incontinence). Lifestyle drugs can make people's lives feel happier and more content (though not necessarily by curing a serious medical condition). Based on what they treat, lifestyle drugs have necessarily led naming trends in a more conceptual direction. ----- i didn't find "lifestyle drug" in the recent ADS archives, nor in a google search for "lifestyle drug" in combination with "Nunberg" (geoff nunberg having written several times on "lifestyle"). frankel reports that the term "comes up frequently in the literature around modern pharmaceuticals" (p. 143). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jul 30 16:59:35 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: lifestyle drug In-Reply-To: <405FA07A-E249-11D8-9302-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:55:24AM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > i didn't find "lifestyle drug" in the recent ADS archives, nor in a > google search for "lifestyle drug" in combination with "Nunberg" (geoff > nunberg having written several times on "lifestyle"). frankel reports > that the term "comes up frequently in the literature around modern > pharmaceuticals" (p. 143). OED published an entry for this about three years ago, defined as "a drug used to treat a condition that is not (necessarily) life-threatening but that has a significant impact on the quality of life", and with a first quotation from 1982. Jesse Sheidlower OED From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Jul 30 17:39:54 2004 From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:39:54 +0100 Subject: lifestyle drug In-Reply-To: <20040730165934.GA12722@panix.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > OED published an entry for this about three years ago, defined as "a > drug used to treat a condition that is not (necessarily) > life-threatening but that has a significant impact on the quality of > life", and with a first quotation from 1982. See also http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-lif1.htm, an entry which is now a little out of date, since it was written in 1998. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 18:09:42 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:09:42 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: >> As I've said here before, women don't >> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >> nary nobody oblected!) > > In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea > culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 19:09:14 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:09:14 EDT Subject: The history of saluting Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Wilson Gray writes: This book also had a brief section > debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of > respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in > any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the hand > salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, > given that they have far more respect for one another than they have > for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted > combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute anyone > wounded in combat, regardless of rank? This idea that saluting is a sign of _respect_ is a long-standing etymythology, frequently resorted to by those who have no idea the real reason for saluting, which is rather the opposite. It can be summed up in one word, or more exactly name: "Wallenstein" The armies that fought in the Thirty Year's War were mostly mercenaries, which means the soldiers in them owed allegiance only to the entrepreneur who recruited them, sometimes paid them, and most importantly fed them. The most notorious of these entrepreneurs was Albrecht Wenzel Eusebius von Wallenstein (1583-1634), a first-rate general, strategist, and businessman who for several years was de facto the commander for the Holy Roman Empire. He was also a man who followed his own agenda, rather than that of his nominal boss the Holy Roman Emperor, who finally decided there was no choice but to have Wallenstein assassinated. The Thirty Year's War ended (in Germany) in 1648 with the Peace of Westphalia, but it took until 1650 to get all those mercenaries rounded up and pacified. The Crowned Heads of Europe said, "Never again! No more Wallensteins! From now on armies will be agents of the State and do what the State wants." This new objective was so successful that when, two centuries later, Clausewitz said "War is a continuation of policy by other means", no one laughed. How did the Crowned Heads of Europe accomplish these? By three policies: 1) armies from now on will consist of two castes, officers and enlisted, and these two castes will be kept rigidly separated. 2) the enlisted caste will strictly obey the officer caste 3) the officer caste will do what the State wants them to do A number of rules, rituals, and customs sprang up to enforce policies 1) and 2). Some were planned; others just grew but were kept when they proved useful. Saluting was one of those rituals. Originally, when an enlisted man saluted an officer, it meant that the EM was acknowledging that he was segregated from and owed deference to the officer. When the officer returned the salute he was acknowledging that the enlisted man had offered the proper deference. Hence it makes sense to salute the flag (which outranks an officer) but not to salute fellow enlisted men. At least that was the original idea behind saluting. However, saluting quickly became such an accustomed and habitual ritual that to all but the most thin-skinned enlisted man it was merely a way of saying "the officer and I are both soldiers rather than civilians." (The custom of enlisted men in English-speaking armies addressing officers as "sir" has the same purpose of acknowledging deference towards the superior caste.) The origin of the saluting gesture is obscure. I have read in several sources that it originated when knights in armor had to raise the visors of their helmets in order to recognize each other, since the visors covered their faces. I doubt this explanation, since knights did ride around in public with their visors down (too difficult to breathe) . What about policy 3)? Remember that the commander of an army can do anything he wishes, and is restrained ONLY by his personal social and ethical code. Wallenstein, for example, had a particularly low level of ethics. So by the beginning of the 18th century the custom arose that all officers were to be *gentlemen.* (Hence the phrase "an officer and a gentleman"). This did not mean that an officer had to be of superior social standing (although many were from the nobility, one reason being that an officer needs to be able to read and in many places only the nobility were literate.) Rather it meant that the officer adhered strictly to the "code of the gentleman", the most important part of which was that he kept his word no matter what. (You are commander of a town under siege and you surrender on a promise from the opposing commader to protect the civilian townspeople. It will be a great relief to you to know that the man you surrendered to is a gentleman, because his word is the only thing that protects your people from being raped and murdered.) - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 30 20:10:48 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:10:48 EDT Subject: language birth Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:26:06 -0500 Dennis Baron writes >. Sure, it's unlikely, but my question is this: > are there examples of language birth, like that of the Romance > languages, only more recent? Hardly unlikely. First, a caveat: whether two tongues are "separate languages" or "dialects of the same language" is a matter of local custom and politics. The adage that "a language is a dialect with an army" is 90% correct (I am still searching for the Yiddish army, though). The European out-migration that followed Columbus and Vasco da Gama spawned a number of pidgins, creoles, and other variants of European languages. (I won't try to distinguish between a pidgin and a creole because if I do Salikoko Mufwene will reach out from my computer screen and bop me over the head with a copy of _The Ecology of Language Evolution_). At least one of these variants has by long custom been considered a separate language rather than a dialect: Afrikaans. Another candidate is Gullah (MWCD11 defines it as "an English-based creole ...marked by vocabulary and grammatical elements from various African languages.") There are several members of ADS-L who have written on this list about Gullah, so I will leave it to them to pontificate on whether it is a separate language from English. (Judging by some Gullah quotes posted to this list, I would not be surprised to find that Gullah and English are NOT mutually intelligible). Still another candiate is Melanesian Pidgin, which in my experience gets described as a language on its own, rather than as a dialect of English. It is not only European languages that have spawned pidgins etc. since Vasco da Gama. There is for example Fanagolo (also known as ."FANAKALO", "FANEKOLO", "KITCHEN KAFFIR", "MINE KAFFIR", PIKI, ISIPIKI, "ISIKULA", LOLOLO, ISILOLOLO, PIDGIN BANTU, BASIC ZULU) which as far as I can tell is based on several South African languages. Notice that in the list above (copied from www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Sout.html ) it is called "Pidgin Bantu". I suppose it is well-enough known and has been widely-enough used to be classified as a language rather than as a dialect of Bantu or Zulu or whatever. Fanagolo was used for many years as a sort of Lingua Franca for miners from various African language groups who did not speak either English or some African language in common. Not surprisingly it picked up all the negative emotional baggage of both colonialism and apartheid, which makes it perhaps the only language on this planet to be Politically Incorrect. It has also been officially declared a safety hazard by the South African government (nowadays it is much more effective, as well as safer, for miners to communicate in English). It appears, from what I have read, that Fanagolo will die out in the not-too-distant future, at which time it will also have the distinction of being the only dead language in the history of this planet to die unmourned. Its only literary monument is a translation of MacBeth. - James A. Landau From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Jul 30 20:18:31 2004 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:18:31 -0500 Subject: another coordination example In-Reply-To: <200407300400.i6U40cWY019133@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps you can specify your "unity" more by calling it "metonymy" in this case. Especially in the given context, it's clear that "the property" refers to the property on which the hotel is currently sitting. One doesn't normally "turn" property "into" a development, but one "develops (a) property". You can test the metonymy by substituting different related nouns: "...the junk cars, which will be destroyed and the tires recycled." Obviously here, the tires are on the cars. Also, you can use normally unrelated nouns as a test: "... the junk cars, which will be crushed and the birds transferred to the sanctuary." Here, the birds must be roosting in the cars. or "...the hotel, which will be demolished and the lake filled in" where I end up assuming that the hotel has a lake next to it. That the second NP must be old information helps guide this construal. Also, notice that a possessive pronoun could be slipped in before the second NP: "...and its property turned into", "and their tires recycled", "and their birds transferred", "and its lake filled in". Your other example seems to me more like English serial verb periphrasis due to tense interaction and/or adverbial modification: *I'll give you some things that I went bought. Later I'll give you some things that I'll go buy. *Later I'll give you some things that I will go downtown buy. Later I'll give you some things that I'll go downtown and buy. Clai Rice --------------------------------------------- arnold wrote: here's another intriguing coordination example, from Randy Jensen, "City looks to keep car dealers?, Palo Alto Daily News 7/28/04, p. 2: ------ The concessions from the dealerships are an effort to help maintain a sales tax base that has recently been rocked by the potential loss of the Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development. ------ ok, let's take this apart. the crucial part is the relative clause: with its head -- (1) "Hyatt Rickeys, which will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development". the relative clause itself can be paraphrased as (2) "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property turned into a residential development." now, (2) is a pretty ordinary example of Gapping: "Hyatt Rickeys will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." a coordination of two clauses, the second of which is missing (part of) its verbal piece. so how do we get the relative clause? by "extraction" of the NP "Hyatt Rickeys" from one of the two clauses of (2) (the first). (excuse the transformational terminology.) but this is a violation of the Coordinate Structure Constraint (from Ross's 1968 dissertation). some might think this was an insuperable problem. but i don't find (1) at all bad. (see my Language Log posting at http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001266.html for some other conflicts between theory and (my) judgments.) what (1) feels like to me is some other well-known apparent counterexamples to the CSC, like (3) "I'll give you some things that I rushed downtown and bought". (not Gapping, but a more ordinary type of reduced coordination.) the usual observation about (3) is that what makes it ok is the unity of the event denoted by "I rushed downtown and bought [some things]." and that kind of unity is there, i think, in "Hyatt Rickey's will be demolished and the property [will be] turned into a residential development." this is a subtle point, and i'm not entirely sure what's going on. but (1) is a good bit better than, say, "Kim, who ate sushi and Sandy ate sashimi", where the subevents are not so easily unified. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 20:54:44 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:54:44 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Page Stephens writes: "When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in southern Illinois?" ~~~~~~~~~~ We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jul 30 21:00:19 2004 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:00:19 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said olly, olly oxen free I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. dInIs >Page Stephens writes: >"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >southern Illinois?" >~~~~~~~~~~ >We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 30 21:32:49 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:49 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me to be virtually indefinable. As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) Another likelihood seems to be that the "extra" taboo language they've been using is restricted to the application of a relatively few common words. How many are "adept" at using the word "poontang," for example, which has been under discussion here lately. Frankly, I don't know. There is a dissertation topic here for someone. Writing in 1959-60, Stuart Flexner averred that women use less slang than men. This is also my impression. I'll be happy to change my view (which at this point is essentially as subjective as anybody's) when there is good data to refute it. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: >> As I've said here before, women don't >> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >> nary nobody oblected!) > > In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea > culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Jul 30 21:50:23 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:50:23 -0500 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A review of male/female instant messaging ought to be helpful here. I don't know about adults, but the female adolescents certainly seem to be holding their own.... sally donlon Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. > > You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me to be virtually indefinable. > > As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) > > Another likelihood seems to be that the "extra" taboo language they've been using is restricted to the application of a relatively few common words. How many are "adept" at using the word "poontang," for example, which has been under discussion here lately. Frankly, I don't know. There is a dissertation topic here for someone. > > Writing in 1959-60, Stuart Flexner averred that women use less slang than men. This is also my impression. I'll be happy to change my view (which at this point is essentially as subjective as anybody's) when there is good data to refute it. > > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > > >>>As I've said here before, women don't >>>understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>>nary nobody oblected!) >> >>In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >>culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 30 22:00:05 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:00:05 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of "all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't be absolutely certain of any one. AM ~~~~~~ >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > >olly, olly oxen free > >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > >dInIs > > > >>Page Stephens writes: >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >>southern Illinois?" >>~~~~~~~~~~ >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >>A. Murie >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:05:20 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:05:20 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of the > slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do you have > in mind?... i'm short of time right now, but let me clarify one thing. i'm willing to treat the taboo part of the vocabulary as a special case, recognizing that at some times and in some sections of society this part of the lexicon might be strongly associated with men. i intended to talk about all the rest of it -- much of which concerns social roles and relationships, personal characteristics, etc.: hunk, cutie-pie, wimp, wuss, stud muffin, pickled 'drunk', kiddies, etc. but i'll return to this in a little while. arnold From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 30 22:10:05 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:10:05 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. Message-ID: I didn't take Wilson's suggestion that women don't understand slang very seriously, so I'm intrigued to read Jonathan's presumably more considered views. A couple of observations. First, it's absolutely to be expected that men and women will have different uses of sexual slang, and it's important to consider sexual slang separately in this context. Second, my subjective impression is that, at least for non-taboo slang, women are equally likely to understand and use slang, but that, for taboo slang, they are somewhat less likely to understand and use it (though there are some notable exceptions). John Baker From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:20:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:20:19 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same in southern California in the late 40s-early 50s. And it was chanted to a melody that, if you start with C, goes something like C C C C E-flat C C, with a rhythm of four quarter notes, two half notes and a concluding whole note. (There was a discussion of this on the list some time ago--it's probably to be found in the archives.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 30, 2004 5:00 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > olly, olly oxen free > > I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > dInIs > > > >> Page Stephens writes: >> "When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >> in southern Illinois?" >> ~~~~~~~~~~ >> We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> A. Murie >> >> >> >> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jul 30 22:19:38 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:19:38 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in alley, not Ollie.) At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >be absolutely certain of any one. >AM >~~~~~~ > > >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > > >olly, olly oxen free > > > >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>Page Stephens writes: > >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in > >>southern Illinois?" > >>~~~~~~~~~~ > >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) > >>A. Murie > >> > >> > >> > >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > > > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >University Distinguished Professor > >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > > Asian and African Languages > >Wells Hall A-740 > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office: (517) 353-0740 > >Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 30 23:37:45 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:37:45 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407301109.1bQBPf2LX3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > >>> As I've said here before, women don't >>> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>> nary nobody oblected!) >> >> In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >> culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) For some reason, I don't always receive postings and, in other cases, my replies have been received only by the original poster and not by the list. Hence, I'm not able to reply fully to Jonathon, since I have only the sentence partial that Arnold has included to work with. Jonathon, I am serious. I, of course, realize that sweeping generalizations about any class of human beings are overstatements, at the least, and are very, no, extremely likely to be utterly ludicrous. I've read the books and looked at the Web sites devoted to "scientific" racism. But that was my point. I was expecting at least a "McEnroe": you *can't* be serious! But, Arnold, I didn't realize that my claim was so empty of content as not to (or should that be "to not"?) merit any reply whatsoever. I'm hurt!;-) In any case, in addition to the case of the woman who "corrected" the phrase "lay dead" to "play dead," I had in mind cases like the following. Everyone here is, no doubt, familiar with the slang meaning of the phrase, "she's a cheap date," wherein "cheap date" means something like: "not only is she an easy lay, but she's also so stupid that she'll pick you up in her car, pay for your dinner, drinks, and cigarettes, and put the motel room on her credit card." Now, if I were a woman and I knew that men were saying that about me, even if it was true, at the very least, I'd be displeased. But it has been my experience that women are so unaware of what "cheap date" means that they consider it a compliment and literally *brag* that they've been called cheap dates! When I was a kid, I used to hear when-mother-was-a-girl stories in which I was often told that guys greeted chicks by saying, "Hi, stuff!", back in the day. By the time that I reached adolescence, I was fully aware that "stuff" was shortened from "good stuff" and that "good stuff" was just another way of saying, "piece of ass, pussy, boody, cunt," etc. Needless to say, I doubt that my mother would ever have allowed herself to be addressed that way, "stuff" when she was a young woman, had she the foggiest idea of what the guys were saying. I don't have any children, but I do have six nieces, ranging in age from 14 to 34, and they don't appear to be any more aware than their mothers. Naturally, they know most of the major four-letter words and use them with understanding and accuracy. Even the 14-year-old has known and understood the meaning of, e.g. MILF, since she was twelve and has known all of the words to, e.g. "Baby Got Back" since she was younger than that (*very* impressive; that song is epic in length) and delights in challenging my hipness (not to mention my sense of decorum) by asking me whether I know what, e.g. "cameltoe" means. (I do, now.) Of course, what I've described is based only on my own casual and random observations across an extremely narrow spectrum. Nevertheless, from chatting with my nieces, I find it difficult to believe that girls and women today truly understand guyspeak any more now than they did back in the day. Though I grant that the nieces certainly talk "dirtier" in a trivial sense, than "nice" girls used to, I'm constantly having to say to them, "Don't let guys to say those things to you!" When guys say that, they're actually making fun of you!" "Don't you realize that that is an insult?" "Never allow boys to say things like that to you!" Etc., etc., etc. We don't have HBO, unfortunately. -Wilson Gray From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 31 00:18:55 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:18:55 -0400 Subject: This is no shit Message-ID: FWIW, Wilson seems to me to be talking about code, rather than "slang." It is a vocabulary *meant to obscure* its true meaning, rather than a popular form of language. In a way, it's more like shibboleths: exclusionary rather than democratic. A. Murie From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Fri Jul 30 20:27:22 2004 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:27:22 +0100 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040730181640.02248ad8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: From my Seattle youth in 1970s (transplanted at age 8 from a peripatetic military-base existence until then; parents from Montana and Ohio): Where all'd you go on vacation? Who all'd you see? What all'd you see? But not *When all'd you get back? *How all'd you get there? And we said "ollie ollie in come free." Wendalyn Nichols At 11:19 PM 7/30/04, you wrote: >Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in >alley, not Ollie.) > >At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >>think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >>"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >>be absolutely certain of any one. >>AM >>~~~~~~ >> >> >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said >> > >> >olly, olly oxen free >> > >> >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >> >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >> >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >> >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. >> > >> >dInIs >> > >> > >> > >> >>Page Stephens writes: >> >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >> >>southern Illinois?" >> >>~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> >>A. Murie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Dennis R. Preston >> >University Distinguished Professor >> >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> > Asian and African Languages >> >Wells Hall A-740 >> >Michigan State University >> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> >Office: (517) 353-0740 >> >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> >>A&M Murie >>N. Bangor NY >>sagehen at westelcom.com From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 31 02:16:24 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:16:24 -0700 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <20040730213249.64188.qmail@web61310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > > > Just to stir the pot a little, I 'd like to know approximately > what proportion of slang terms (defined as you like) have been > created by women. Given the current state of knowledge, even an > approximate figure - 5%, 50%, 90% - is impossible to know or > guess at reliably. My own SWAG is a lot closer to 5% than %50. > > You say, Arnold, that "women are adept users of large parts of > the slang lexicon." Other than the "taboo" part, which parts do > you have in mind? And "part" iteself in this regard seems to me > to be virtually indefinable. > > As I observed in the intro to HDAS 1, we are fairly sure, from an > abundance of real-life and media evidence, that women > (particularly middle-class) have openly been using far more taboo > language in the past, say, forty years than ever before. (Those > who doubt this may consult women of their acquaintance who are 65 > or over about taboo language before, say, 1960. Let's see what they say.) Some data points: when I was a teenager in the late 70s, my cousins and I were greatly amused that an older aunt, a woman who must have been in her 50s at the time, did not know what the word "fart" meant. (We overheard a conversation between her and her younger sisters about a humorous birthday card that used the word; so she was not pretending for the benefit of the youngsters.) She was an army officer's wife and had plenty of exposure to those of different "classes," enlisted men and their wives. But I'd be willing to bet that in her era speech patterns of others changed when "ladies were present" and she just did not hear such words. Similarly, in 1983 I recall my grandmother (born 1899) pronouncing the "w" in "whorehouse." (She had read a review of the Tom Cruise movie "Risky Business" and was speaking about "the boy who opened up...I guess you would call it a whorehouse." Clearly she knew what the word meant from reading, but I'm not sure she had ever heard the word pronounced. Strange, since she was a church-goer and must have heard some preacher talk about the "whore of Babylon" at some point, but maybe she didn't make the connection--or maybe it was our more genteel form of Presbyterianism that avoided such locutions even when in Scriptures. The degree of slang usage/comprehension among women is likely to be heavily influenced by age and social class. Certainly, the women I work with here in Silicon Valley, mostly in their late-20s and 30s, are as adept at slang usage as their male counterparts. Sexual slang is not prevalent in my workplace, but you occasionally do hear it and it's as likely to be from a woman as from a man. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 02:28:47 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:28:47 -0400 Subject: The history of saluting In-Reply-To: <200407301209.1bQCKV6C23NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 3:09 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: The history of saluting > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:29:39 -0400 Wilson Gray > writes: > > This book also had a brief section >> debunking the claim that "EM must salute officers as a sign of >> respect." Needless to say, I can't remember the author's analysis in >> any detail. But I do remember its thrust. If the rendering of the >> hand >> salute has to do with respect, then why don't EM salute one another, >> given that they have far more respect for one another than they have >> for any officer? Why aren't REMF-officers forced to salute enlisted >> combat troops? Why doesn't everyone, regardless of rank, salute >> anyone >> wounded in combat, regardless of rank? > > This idea that saluting is a sign of _respect_ is a long-standing > etymythology, frequently resorted to by those who have no idea the > real reason for > saluting, which is rather the opposite. > > It can be summed up in one word, or more exactly name: "Wallenstein" > > The armies that fought in the Thirty Year's War were mostly > mercenaries, > which means the soldiers in them owed allegiance only to the > entrepreneur who > recruited them, sometimes paid them, and most importantly fed them. > The most > notorious of these entrepreneurs was Albrecht Wenzel Eusebius von > Wallenstein > (1583-1634), a first-rate general, strategist, and businessman who for > several > years was de facto the commander for the Holy Roman Empire. He was > also a man > who followed his own agenda, rather than that of his nominal boss the > Holy Roman > Emperor, who finally decided there was no choice but to have > Wallenstein > assassinated. > > The Thirty Year's War ended (in Germany) in 1648 with the Peace of > Westphalia, but it took until 1650 to get all those mercenaries > rounded up and pacified. > The Crowned Heads of Europe said, "Never again! No more > Wallensteins! From > now on armies will be agents of the State and do what the State > wants." This > new objective was so successful that when, two centuries later, > Clausewitz > said "War is a continuation of policy by other means", no one laughed. It's nice to see "Politik" translated correctly for a change!:-) > > How did the Crowned Heads of Europe accomplish these? By three > policies: > 1) armies from now on will consist of two castes, officers and > enlisted, and > these two castes will be kept rigidly separated. > 2) the enlisted caste will strictly obey the officer caste > 3) the officer caste will do what the State wants them to do > > A number of rules, rituals, and customs sprang up to enforce policies > 1) and > 2). Some were planned; others just grew but were kept when they proved > useful. Saluting was one of those rituals. Originally, when an > enlisted man > saluted an officer, it meant that the EM was acknowledging that he was > segregated > from and owed deference to the officer. When the officer returned the > salute he > was acknowledging that the enlisted man had offered the proper > deference. > > Hence it makes sense to salute the flag (which outranks an officer) > but not > to salute fellow enlisted men. > > At least that was the original idea behind saluting. However, saluting > quickly became such an accustomed and habitual ritual that to all but > the most > thin-skinned enlisted man it was merely a way of saying "the officer > and I are > both soldiers rather than civilians." This reminds me of the quartermaster sgt in my BT Co, who used to say, "I don't like officers, but I HATE civilians! > > (The custom of enlisted men in English-speaking armies addressing > officers as > "sir" has the same purpose of acknowledging deference towards the > superior > caste.) > > The origin of the saluting gesture is obscure. I have read in several > sources that it originated when knights in armor had to raise the > visors of their > helmets in order to recognize each other, since the visors covered > their faces. > I doubt this explanation, since knights didn't ride around in public > with their > visors down (too difficult to breathe) . I didn't believe this one when I was a kid. Lifting a visor, as least as they are shown in the usual children's-book illustrations and judging by museum suits of armor, wouldn't show enough of a face to permit an ID, nor does it have anything to say about what happened when two knights met who were strangers to each other. Besides, if they knew each other, they wouldn't need to see face. If you can believe "Ivanhoe," it was heraldry that permitted the ID of a fully-caparisoned knight. > > What about policy 3)? Remember that the commander of an army can do > anything > he wishes, and is restrained ONLY by his personal social and ethical > code. > Wallenstein, for example, had a particularly low level of ethics. So > by the > beginning of the 18th century the custom arose that all officers were > to be > *gentlemen.* (Hence the phrase "an officer and a gentleman"). This > did not mean > that an officer had to be of superior social standing (although many > were from > the nobility, one reason being that an officer needs to be able to > read and > in many places only the nobility were literate.) Rather it meant that > the > officer adhered strictly to the "code of the gentleman", the most > important part > of which was that he kept his word no matter what. > > (You are commander of a town under siege and you surrender on a > promise from > the opposing commader to protect the civilian townspeople. It will be > a great > relief to you to know that the man you surrendered to is a gentleman, > because > his word is the only thing that protects your people from being raped > and > murdered.) > > - James A. Landau Very Interesting! -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 03:45:43 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" Message-ID: Wendy, Good to see your post! Jon Wendalyn Nichols wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wendalyn Nichols Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From my Seattle youth in 1970s (transplanted at age 8 from a peripatetic military-base existence until then; parents from Montana and Ohio): Where all'd you go on vacation? Who all'd you see? What all'd you see? But not *When all'd you get back? *How all'd you get there? And we said "ollie ollie in come free." Wendalyn Nichols At 11:19 PM 7/30/04, you wrote: >Allie allie oxen free in Minnesota in the '40s and '50s. (Allie as in >alley, not Ollie.) > >At 06:00 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Yeah, well, I considered using those spellings, but realized I used to >>think of it as the (mysterious) "ocksin." And yes, I meant the vowel of >>"all," but running various vowel sounds through my hearing memory, couldn't >>be absolutely certain of any one. >>AM >>~~~~~~ >> >> >Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said >> > >> >olly, olly oxen free >> > >> >I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say >> >"olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if >> >that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who >> >distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. >> > >> >dInIs >> > >> > >> > >> >>Page Stephens writes: >> >>"When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did in >> >>southern Illinois?" >> >>~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>We did, but the version in SE NE was "ally ally ocksin free!" (1930s) >> >>A. Murie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Dennis R. Preston >> >University Distinguished Professor >> >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> > Asian and African Languages >> >Wells Hall A-740 >> >Michigan State University >> >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> >Office: (517) 353-0740 >> >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> >>A&M Murie >>N. Bangor NY >>sagehen at westelcom.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 03:47:30 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:47:30 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > > Wilson, > > When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did > in > southern Illinois? > > Page Stephens Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. The chant is: Last night, night before Twenty-four robbers at my door I opened the door I let them in I hit them in the head with a rolling pin All hid? The evidence is: In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night Before"! Coincidence? I think not. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 03:50:39 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:50:39 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Page Stephens wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Page Stephens > Subject: Unthaw > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For years I have used the word "unthaw" to describe what you do when > you > thaw frozen food out, and for years my wife has laughed at me since it > makes > no sense. > > Well the other day I was watching a tv program about Clarence Birdseye > and > the invention of frozen foods on The History Channel, and an expert on > the > subject used the same word. > > Penny damned near fell out of her chair laughing and said something > like, > "And I thought you were the only person who was dumb enough to use that > word, but I guess I was wrong." > > Anyone else ever hear it used? > > Page Stephens > I've not only heard it, but I also use it. Your story reminds me of > the Vermont-born buddy of mine who informed me that there's no such > word as "a-loose," after tiring of hearing me use it. I was stunned to > see that WC agreed with him, since I've used "a-loose" since about 30 > seconds after I learned to talk. However, vengeance was mine. A couple > of hours later, as we were watching a college football game, we heard > the color man say something like, "Did you see the way that Smith > broke a-loose after Jones tried to tackle him?!" -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 04:19:15 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:19:15 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: FWIW, I "collected" a version of the "24 robbers" rhyme from a fellow grad student in 1974. He was from the piedmont of North Carolina. I will have to dig the rest of the (maybe six line) rhyme out from its hiding place, but it started this way: 'Tweren't last night, 'twas the night before; Four-and-twenty robbers came knockin' at the door. I'm quite sure it had nothing to do with what I grew up calling "hide-and-seek." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson, > > When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did > in > southern Illinois? > > Page Stephens Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. The chant is: Last night, night before Twenty-four robbers at my door I opened the door I let them in I hit them in the head with a rolling pin All hid? The evidence is: In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night Before"! Coincidence? I think not. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jul 31 04:17:13 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:17:13 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <59492226-E2A4-11D8-B61F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? Compare the nursery rhyme (?) popularized by Stephen King: Late last night, and the night before, Tommyknockers, tommyknockers, knocking at the door. [Incidentally, I suppose that this word "tommyknocker" is cognate with Swedish "tomte" (= gnome), as in "Jultomten" = "the Yule gnome", who knocks (?) and delivers "julklappar" = "Christmas presents" (basically "Yule knocks" or so, I suppose), according to my limited understanding of the subject. Can anybody confirm or refute my notion?] -- Doug Wilson From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 04:56:11 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:56:11 -0400 Subject: Hide-and-seek (was [Damn! Forgot to supply subject!]) In-Reply-To: <200407302129.1bQLuU5NR3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Last night, night before >> Twenty-four robbers at my door >> I opened the door >> I let them in >> I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >> All hid? > > Compare the nursery rhyme (?) popularized by Stephen King: > > Late last night, and the night before, > Tommyknockers, tommyknockers, knocking at the door. Yes, I remember that, now that you mention it. -Wilson Gray > > [Incidentally, I suppose that this word "tommyknocker" is cognate with > Swedish "tomte" (= gnome), as in "Jultomten" = "the Yule gnome", who > knocks > (?) and delivers "julklappar" = "Christmas presents" (basically "Yule > knocks" or so, I suppose), according to my limited understanding of the > subject. Can anybody confirm or refute my notion?] > > -- Doug Wilson > From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 05:17:11 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:17:11 -0400 Subject: Hide-and-seek ([was "Damn! Forgot to supply subject!]) In-Reply-To: <200407302129.1bQLuU2hu3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:19 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW, I "collected" a version of the "24 robbers" rhyme from a fellow > grad student in > 1974. He was from the piedmont of North Carolina. I will have to dig > the rest of the (maybe six line) rhyme out from its hiding place, but > it started this way: > > 'Tweren't last night, 'twas the night before; > Four-and-twenty robbers came knockin' at the door. This is really interesting! > > I'm quite sure it had nothing to do with what I grew up calling > "hide-and-seek." And if it has nothing to do with hide-and-seek, that's even more interesting. -Wilson Gray > > JL > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> >> Wilson, >> >> When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >> in >> southern Illinois? >> >> Page Stephens > > Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of > hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've > heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people from so many > different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications > that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of > course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till > the last person out was tagged or got home free. Some time in the > distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the > derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in > free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > > Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme > or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived > where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable > evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in > Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > > The chant is: > > Last night, night before > Twenty-four robbers at my door > I opened the door > I let them in > I hit them in the head with a rolling pin > All hid? > > The evidence is: > > In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a > spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was > formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental > entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the > flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night > Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Sat Jul 31 05:30:05 2004 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:30:05 EDT Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois side note) Message-ID: I concur. Olly olly oxen free. And on a side note... SoILers (Egyptians?), what-all, or where-all, are you-all *including* as Southern Illinois? I only include the bottom 16 counties. -doug In a message dated 7/30/2004 4:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, preston at MSU.EDU writes: Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said olly, olly oxen free I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. dInIs -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Jul 31 14:03:05 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:03:05 +0100 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I may paraphrase an off-list mail to Tom Dalzell, 'had Wilson suggested that women don't use slang, nor apparently coin slang, at leasts to the extent that emn and do always have done' then I would essentially have agreed with him.' It was the idea that they might lack the intelligence to understand it that spurred my response. (BTW, Tom also notes thr work of Geneva Smitherman, Judi Sanders, Pam Munro, Louise Pound, Inez Cardozo-Freeman). I am a lexicographer, and I don't have the time or expertise to theorise, but it has always seemed to me that slang is the exemplar of what the feminist author Dale Spender defined, in her eponymously titled book (c. 1980) 'Man Made Language.' If anyone knows my Slang Down the Ages' ('Through...' in US) they will have seen this theory in greater taxonomic detail. One needs but look, for instance, at the themes that underpin the slang synonyms for 'penis' and vagina' to see the way in which the male point of view almost invariably dominates. Why this ishould be the case, I leave to others of greater skills to opine; but a check through the headword lists of any slang dictionary will make it abundantly clear that it _is_ the case. And while it may well be stereotyping, you will search hard amongst those lists for many terms pertaining to what are seen as 'feminine' attributes; caring, sharing, compassion, and the like. Jonathon Gree From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Jul 31 15:32:55 2004 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:32:55 -0400 Subject: childhood rhymes In-Reply-To: <59492226-E2A4-11D8-B61F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my shoe," which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without grasping it or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: One, two, buckle my shoe Three, four, shut the door Five, six, pick up sticks Seven, eight, lay them straight Nine, ten, a big fat hen Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four twenty-four burglars came up to my door; I opened the door and let them in; I knocked them down with a rolling pin! At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Wilson, >> >>When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >>in >>southern Illinois? >> >>Page Stephens > >Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications >that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > >Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > >The chant is: > >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? > >The evidence is: > >In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > >-Wilson Gray From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jul 31 16:03:15 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:03:15 -0400 Subject: unthaw In-Reply-To: <20040731040138.6E4262287F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The prefix un- doesn't just mean 'negative'. It also has a meaning of 'release'. From OED online: un-, prefix[2] expressing reversal or deprivation sense [...] of freeing or releasing from something. I don't have the reference at hand, but I'm pretty sure Whorf wrote about this use as in "unravel" = "ravel" and several other examples that I can't recall. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 31 17:13:44 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:13:44 EDT Subject: From Rags to Riches (1903) Message-ID: "What do you have on rags to riches?" David Shulman asked me, by phone, a few hours ago. "OED has 1947.And get to the library early." It's been a hard work week.The air conditioning at work hasn't been fixed in five years. It was fixed a week ago, we had ONE DAY OF AIR, and then it broke again. Two judges walked out. The people with the parking tickets wondered why we're treated worse than animals at the Bronx zoo. And on Saturday, I have a day off, and I like to sleep late. And I don't particularly care about antedating OED anymore, since I they don't pay me and I have to go across town today to get it, and if I do something good it will have someone else's name on it. OK, I'm off to the NYPL. Bet Shulman has more poems. What a life. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 8 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30, 1903. p. 11 (1 page): _From Rags to Riches_, From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 17:59:59 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:59:59 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407301109.1bQBPf2LX3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jul 29, 2004, at 2:41 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > >>> As I've said here before, women don't >>> understand slang. (Is *everyone* here with me on this?! So far, ain't >>> nary nobody oblected!) >> >> In that case, let me be the first. (And if I haven't got the joke, mea >> culpa). Setting aside the academic expertise of such as... > > i didn't object before because the claim just seemed too preposterous. > wilson isn't talking about researchers, of course, but about ordinary > speakers. but unless he's using some very specialized sense of > "slang", the claim is just false: women are adept users of, often > innovators of, large parts of the slang lexicon. > > from earlier discussions on these matters, i suspect that what wilson > is referring to is the taboo portion of the slang lexicon, which is > conventionally held to be "men's talk" in our culture -- "strong > language". now, this is a stereotype, and as with any stereotype, > there are at least some people who conform to it. and it is true that > mastery of the taboo vocabulary is, in our culture generally, a central > part of the socialization of boys. but in truly massive numbers, women > (of all regions, social classes, ages, races/ethnicities, etc.) are as > competent in the use of taboo vocabulary as men are. > > as i think i've pointed out here before, for some people, learning to > use the taboo vocabulary is part of achieving adulthood (rather than > specifically gendered adulthood) and is managed in mixed-sex groups. i > believe i've mentioned overhearing a set of palo alto high school kids > (equal numbers of girls and guys) having coffee together and, in > effect, practicing their taboo vocabulary together. > > for an example of a middle-class white teenage girl from a good family > who really understands her taboo slang, check out claire fisher, the > daughter of the family in Six Feet Under (on HBO). > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Arnold, amazingly enough, now that I've had time to digest what you've said, lo! the sleeper wakes. I've long had the feeling that something was wrong with the idea that women and slang don't mix. Even though I truly believed this, I've always had the nagging feeling that it couldn't be correct. One obvious problem was that it would mean that women, in some undefined way, were essentially psychologically different from men, a concept that is, as in your admirable summation, preposterous. Naturally, I don't agree that every facet of what *you* have to say is necessarily correct, it has removed the scale from my eyes. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that what *I* had to say was wrong to the point of inanity. -Wilson Gray From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 18:43:48 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:43:48 -0400 Subject: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois side note) In-Reply-To: <200407302230.1bQMrM1Ru3NZFkZ0@quail> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 1:30 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: "Who-all" and "what-all" (and a Southern Illinois > side note) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I concur. Olly olly oxen free. > > And on a side note... SoILers (Egyptians?), what-all, or where-all, are > you-all *including* as Southern Illinois? I only include the bottom > 16 counties. > > > -doug Though I don't have a gazetteer sufficiently detailed that it shows counties, I can tell you that, judging from the familiar names of population centers that I recognize as being considered, by St. Louisans, at least, to be part of the "Greater Saint Louis Metropolitan Area," for me, "Southern Illinois" includes everything from Mattoon south, in general, and "Little Egypt," in particular. Judging by the scale of the map, "SI in general" probably covers more than 16 counties. -Wilson Gray > > In a message dated 7/30/2004 4:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, > preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Hmmmm! In my southern Illinois ute, we said > > olly, olly oxen free > > I suspect the oxen is just a spelling variant, but we really did say > "olly," homophonous with "Ollie," definitely not "ally," at least if > that first vowel is meant to be that of "all" (for those who > distinguish the two, that is, as all from southern Illinois do. > > dInIs > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 31 19:14:33 2004 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:14:33 -0700 Subject: childhood rhymes Message-ID: Neat, Beverly! I like the "12 Days of Xmas" influence. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: childhood rhymes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my shoe," which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without grasping it or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: One, two, buckle my shoe Three, four, shut the door Five, six, pick up sticks Seven, eight, lay them straight Nine, ten, a big fat hen Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four twenty-four burglars came up to my door; I opened the door and let them in; I knocked them down with a rolling pin! At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>Wilson, >> >>When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we did >>in >>southern Illinois? >> >>Page Stephens > >Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >different places and read it in so many different kinds of publications >that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. > >Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. > >The chant is: > >Last night, night before >Twenty-four robbers at my door >I opened the door >I let them in >I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >All hid? > >The evidence is: > >In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >Before"! Coincidence? I think not. > >-Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 19:26:02 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:26:02 -0400 Subject: This is no sh*t. In-Reply-To: <200407310658.1bQUnDTH3NZFji0@eagle> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 10:03 AM, Jonathon Green wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathon Green > Subject: Re: This is no sh*t. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > If I may paraphrase an off-list mail to Tom Dalzell, 'had Wilson > suggested > that women don't use slang, nor apparently coin slang, at leasts to the > extent that emn and do always have done' then I would essentially have > agreed with him.' It was the idea that they might lack the > intelligence > to understand it that spurred my response. Quite so. In fact, the realization that my sweeping generalization, as I stated it, carried the implication that women are, in some sense, intellectually "inferior" to men is what has finally persuaded me that what I said, though it *feels* right to me - probably only because I've believed it for half a century - can not actually *be* right. > (BTW, Tom also notes thr work > of Geneva Smitherman, Judi Sanders, Pam Munro, Louise Pound, Inez > Cardozo-Freeman). I am a lexicographer, and I don't have the time or > expertise to theorise, but it has always seemed to me that slang is the > exemplar of what the feminist author Dale Spender defined, in her > eponymously titled book (c. 1980) 'Man Made Language.' If anyone knows > my > Slang Down the Ages' ('Through...' in US) they will have seen this > theory > in greater taxonomic detail. One needs but look, for instance, at the > themes that underpin the slang synonyms for 'penis' and 'vagina' to > see the > way in which the male point of view almost invariably dominates. Why > this > ishould be the case, I leave to others of greater skills to opine; but > a > check through the headword lists of any slang dictionary will make it > abundantly clear that it _is_ the case. And while it may well be > stereotyping, you will search hard amongst those lists for many terms > pertaining to what are seen as 'feminine' attributes; caring, sharing, > compassion, and the like. This is the way that I *ought* to have expressed my thoughts. Thank you, Jonathon. -Wilson Gray > > Jonathon Green > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Jul 31 19:50:16 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:50:16 -0400 Subject: ..NYT and Disco Rice.. Message-ID: The New York Times for 31 JULY 2004 has a story titled "Disco Rice, and Other Trash Talk", by Ian Urbina. Basically, the story deals with the slang/jargon of garbage workers. Grant Barret is quoted in the story. The story is in the New York Region section of the paper. The following link may work for a few days, but you'll have to be registered to enter the site. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/31/nyregion/31trash.html George Cole Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sat Jul 31 19:52:31 2004 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:52:31 -0400 Subject: ..NYT and Disco Rice.. Message-ID: Of course, my reference was to Grant Barrett. Apologies for the error. George Cole Shippensburg University From pds at VISI.COM Sat Jul 31 19:48:38 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:48:38 -0500 Subject: Blue Moon Message-ID: From the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune: Blue moon rises over Minnesota this weekend July 30, 2004 If it happens once in a blue moon, you might expect it on Saturday. That evening will bring the month's second full moon -- the currently accepted definition of a blue moon. July's other full moon was July 2. [Comment: This definition is accepted by people of my acquaintance who think about it at all; however, I believe that acceptance comes from its repitition by newspaper, TV, and radio weather reporters over the last several years. OED1, M-W3, and RHUD2 do not mention this definition. OED1's 1525 cite has 'moon is blewe' in a counterfactual context. M-W3 refers (1) to a long period of time with no reference to astronomical phenomena and (2) to the very rare occasions when the moon appears blue due to meteorological conditions. RHUD2 only mentions a non-astronomical, non-meteorolical long time usage, dating it from 1815-20. Nevertheless, the newswriter appears to have done some research, as the sequel reveals.] The last blue moon in these parts was on Halloween 2001; the next one will come June 30, 2007. Blue moon talk appears to go back several centuries. Throughout history, some huge natural cataclysms -- volcanoes and forest fires -- have thrown particles into the atmosphere that have actually made the moon appear blue. By the 1800s, the occasional occurrence known as a blue moon was the fourth full moon in a three-month season. But the term was transformed to mean the second full moon in a calendar month by an article in an astronomy magazine in 1946, the author of which later acknowledged having misinterpreted the earlier meaning. So far, he's had the last word. And under the old definition, there wouldn't be a blue moon this year. Bill McAuliffe ------------------- Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 31 20:22:14 2004 From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:22:14 -0400 Subject: childhood rhymes In-Reply-To: <200407310840.1bQVYf5lT3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: On Jul 31, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: childhood rhymes > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I only know the 4-and-20 rhyme as the ending of "One, two, buckle my > shoe," > which we chanted while trying to bounce a ball non-stop without > grasping it > or losing it (I can still do it!). Let's see if I can remember it: > > One, two, buckle my shoe > Three, four, shut the door > Five, six, pick up sticks > Seven, eight, lay them straight > Nine, ten, a big fat hen > Eleven, twelve, dig and delve [incomprehensible to us kids, of course] > Thirteen, fourteen, maids a-courting > Fifteen, sixteen, maids a-kissing > Seventeen, eighteen, maids a-waiting > Nineteen, twenty, the larder is empty > Twenty-one, twenty-two, my old shoe, > dressed in blue, died last night at half-past two > Twenty-three, twenty-four, last night at half-past four > twenty-four burglars came up to my door; > I opened the door and let them in; > I knocked them down with a rolling pin! *Very* interesting! I know "One, Two" only as literature. All the published versions that I've had read to me or have read for myself have ended at 20. Speaking of girls' games, is anyone else familiar with "One, Two, Three, O'Leary" and/or "Heel, Toe, Stomp, and Over"? These are the same game. "One, Two" is the white version and "Heel, Toe" is the black version. Back in the '40's in Saint Louis, this game was played by pre-adolescent girls. While playing the game, the girls chanted the words sing-song style, with both whites and blacks using the same tune. The game itself involved bouncing a ball, usually a tennis ball, in time with each syllable of the chant while, at the same time, performing the foot-and-leg actions described in the black version. At "O'Leary/and Over," the girl swung the leg of her choice over the ball as it rebounded from the sidewalk, repeating ad infinitum. Girls usually used this as a time-killer when they had nothing else to do. As a consequence, I can't remember ever seeing a girl play this who was other than expert at it, able to mix and match hands, feet, and legs at will. The chants had words beyond those supplied. Unfortunately, I was a pre-adolescent boy at the time and the game was as girly as hopscotch or jacks. So I paid no heed to the words beyond the opening line. "Oh. A girl." Mind goes blank, turns to thoughts of more boyly pursuits. -Wilson Gray > > > At 11:47 PM 7/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >>> Wilson, >>> >>> When the game was over did you call ally ally outs in free like we >>> did >>> in >>> southern Illinois? >>> >>> Page Stephens >> >> Strange as it may seem, this is not a part of >> hide-and-seek/hide-and-go-seek [I myself say "hide-and-seek," but I've >> heard "hide-and-go-seek" from so many different people in so many >> different places and read it in so many different kinds of >> publications >> that I can't consider the "go" version to be "wrong," though, of >> course, I'd like to;-)] as I know it. The game simply continued till >> the last person out was caught or got home free. Some time in the >> distant past - in the '60's, perhaps? - I read an article about the >> derivation of "olly olly ox in free" from "all the, all the outs in >> free." That was the first that I had ever heard of it. >> >> Now, I'm going to return your serve. Did "it" chant a sing-song rhyme >> or merely count up to a certain number? The only place that I've lived >> where the chant is used is in East Texas. However, I have irrefutable >> evidence that it is used elsewhere in the South, almost certainly in >> Memphis, TN, though I can't verify this. >> >> The chant is: >> >> Last night, night before >> Twenty-four robbers at my door >> I opened the door >> I let them in >> I hit them in the head with a rolling pin >> All hid? >> >> The evidence is: >> >> In 1961, a band calling itself The Mar-Keys, like the Bar-Kays a >> spin-off from the much-better-known band, Booker T and the M.G.'s, was >> formed in Memphis, TN. Their first and only hit was an instrumental >> entitled "Last Night." If you turned this record over, like, to the >> flip side, there you found another instrumental, entitled, "Night >> Before"! Coincidence? I think not. >> >> -Wilson Gray >