From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Mar 1 00:49:58 2004 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:49:58 -0600 Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit, was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question) Message-ID: 6 years ago in Harrod's it was a pound to use the loo. Coin operated doors to a luxury men's room with attendant. If you were a shopper, rather than a tourist, the clerk (clark?) would give you a token. ----- Original Message ----- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 1 01:06:07 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: stoopnagle Message-ID: My dad always called someone this in the 1950's when they acted in a dumb way. This term must have come from the radio show "Colonel Stoopnagle and Budd" from 1930's. Has any publication picked up on the slang sense of the term--stoopnagle=stupid person? Sam Clements From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 1 01:22:59 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:22:59 -0800 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit! From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region". In > Ontario (the > real one, not that town south of you, Arnold), i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario. anyway, that other ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live in. > region is used frequently to > refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie > region, > or the region of Oshawa. Last fall while at our cottage we heard a > London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had > happened > "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to > us (I'm > from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central > Indiana). "in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but, really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english). there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three times. a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been "the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area". but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)" that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway to take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond), and so on. just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the same. From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 01:12:50 2004 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry Kane) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:12:50 EST Subject: Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" Message-ID: I was born in Los Angeles in 1942. I always heard and used "make like a tree and leaf". Jerry Kane From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Mar 1 01:28:00 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:00 -0600 Subject: Fwd: cialis Message-ID: To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger." But what about "cialis"? Gerald Cohen >Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:46 -0600 >From: callary ed >Subject: cialis >To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > >Does anyone know the story behind the creation of the brand name Cialis, >which joinv Viagra and Levitra in the "ED" market? > >Viagra is easily evocative with connotations of vim, vigor and vitality >with the image of Niagra Falls in the background, and Levitra has >association with Elevation, Levitation, and the like, but Cialis? > >*********************************************************************** >Edward Callary Phone: 815-753-6627 >English Department email: ecallary at niu.edu >Northern Illinois University FAX: 815-753-0606 >DeKalb, Il 60115-2863 >*********************************************************************** From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Mar 1 01:29:30 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:29:30 -0600 Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question; possible answer) Message-ID: Last week I asked about the connection between an assist in basketball and a dime. I'll now try to answer my own question. During the Depression there was a popular song "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" I.e., Brother, can you help me? Maybe the giving of a dime to someone down on his luck provided the inspiration for "dime = assist (in basketball)." Gerald Cohen >At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> >>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS >>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION >>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b >> >>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be >>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those >>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in >>the five games they did play together that they are compatible. >> >>Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 01:52:07 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:52:07 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: linguistic (OED 1856) 1828 _Quarterly Journal of the American Education Society_ July 85 The American Ed. Society have taken as high ground, in regard to the _classical_ education of the young men under their care, as the state of linguistic study in our country will permit. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 02:07:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:07:11 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Neologism" In-Reply-To: <200402290448.i1T4m4B22903@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: neologism (OED 1799) 1772 Sauseuil, chevalier de (Jean-Nicolas). An analysis of the French orthography: or the true principles of the French pronunciation, exhibited in several easy and comprehensive schemes 163 (heading) Observations on this neologism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 1 02:09:52 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:09:52 -0500 Subject: Fwd: cialis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was >discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that >Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger." > > But what about "cialis"? The company apparently claims it's from French "ciel" = "sky" (as in "the sky's the limit"), plus "s" for "system" or something like that. (Cialis is also a surname, and a lawsuit was filed by somebody with the name, according to Web info.) "Viagra" is indeed close enough to the Sanskrit word for "tiger" AFAIK. And by some coincidence "sialis" is the species name of the eastern bluebird (it says here) ... the bluebird of happiness, I guess. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 02:13:27 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:13:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Numismatics" In-Reply-To: <200402290448.i1T4m4B22903@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: numismatics (OED 1829-32) 1803 _Christian Observer_ May 315 (American Periodical Series) He was distinguished for his intimate knowledge of the Calendar, the Chronology, the Numismatics, and the Gnomonics of that people. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 03:06:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:06:28 -0500 Subject: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers Message-ID: ADS-L SIGNATURE No subject line and no e-mail address on the ADS-L Digests? Oh, all right. This post on "Kumback/Comeback Sauce" and "Potstickers" is brought to you by Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com), famed "hot dog" etymologist, contributor to the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH, HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, and others. His goal in life is to earn enough money to pay for the Dell computer that he types on, and to quit adjudicating parking tickets five days a week. He usually gets no credit for his work, and no one loves him. As usual, he spent a half hour on this post, only to see it destroyed. He is typing it again on another computer here at NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- KUMBACK SAUCE/COMEBACK SAUCE I was asked about this. I thought that I'd posted it before. FACTIVA has some good stuff. (FACTIVA) Fame came from a backyard factory and grandma's recipe Jessie-Lynne Kerr, Times-Union staff writer 459 words 4 April 1999 The Florida Times-Union FINAL A-2 ********** CORRECTION (4/7/99) Patrick Michael Prosser, who made the bottled "Patrick's Kumback Sauce," died April 3, 1968. Because of an editor's error, the wrong date was used in the Millennium Moment on Page A-2 Sunday. (...) Celebrate 2000 April 4, 1968 A daily look at events in First Coast history A Jacksonville man who took one of his grandmother's recipes, added a little of his own imagination and built a dozen businesses died on April 4, 1968. Patrick Michael Prosser, whose sauce was the source of his renown, made and bottled "Patrick's Kumback Sauce" used by a number of local restaurants. Prosser came to Jacksonville from Atlanta in 1929 and opened a drug store across from Lee High School. At one time he owned and operated the Big Five Restaurant on Main Street. Prosser also owned 10 other restaurants and two motels, including Patrick's Motel on Atlantic Boulevard. After leaving the restaurant business, he began to mass produce the special barbecue sauce he had perfected as a restaurateur from his grandmother's recipe and distributed it wholesale to many local restaurants. At one time, he and his wife, Evelyn, were turning out the barbecue sauce at a rate of 400 to 500 gallons a day. The first mass-produced sauce was made in a special "backyard" factory, and Mrs. Prosser would help when she got home from work in the evenings. The Prossers sold the sauce business in 1964. While the restaurant business is known to be risky, perhaps Prosser found it less so than his earlier calling as an amateur and professional boxer. A former Golden Gloves fighter, he later won 59 professional bouts. (FACTIVA) Cookbook-travel guide a great idea by backers of West Feliciana Library Cheramie Sonnier 654 words 6 February 2003 The Baton Rouge Advocate 6-F (...) Other recipes include Sensational Sensation Salad; Apricot Punch; Vidalia Onion Pie; Duck Breast with Raspberry Plum Ginger Glaze, a recipe from Arceneaux's of Louisiana restaurant; BBQ Shrimp; Fried Green Tomatoes with Shrimp & Mississippi Comeback Sauce, an offering from Magnolia Cafe chef Derek Edwards; Justin Wilson's Poulet au Gratin; The Bluffs Mississippi Mud Pie, a recipe from Buff Thompson, executive chef, The Bluffs on Thompson Creek; and Ice Cream Cake Irma. (FACTIVA) COMEBACK SAUCE ADDS A CERTAIN ZING TO PLAIN OL' SALTINES Charlotte Durham Special to The Commercial Appeal 614 words 18 December 2002 The Commercial Appeal Memphis, TN Final E5 COMEBACK SAUCE / POPOVERS / PAULETTE'S STRAWBERRY BUTTER We ate a lot of peanut butter on crackers when I was in college, but I had never heard of a restaurant serving a sauce with saltines until Mandy K. Styles asked about the sauce used on saltines at Elite Restaurant in downtown Jackson, Miss. Nell Smith of Germantown sent this recipe and some history: "I lived in Jackson over 20 years and was told it originated at the Mayflower Cafe. Every year when classes started in the fall, the college students flocked to the Mayflower to eat the sauce on crackers." Since they always came back, the sauce got the name "Comeback Sauce" or "Kumback Sauce," she said. Smith added it makes a great chip or vegetable dip or a salad dressing. (...) COMEBACK SAUCE 2 large garlic cloves 1 large or 2 medium onions, grated 1 cup mayonnaise 1/2 cup chili sauce 1/2 cup ketchup 1/2 cup mustard 1/2 cup salad oil 1 tbsp. Worcestershire sauce 1 tsp. black pepper Dash of paprika 2 tbsp. water Place garlic and onion in blender and blend until mixed. Add other ingredients and blend well. Refrigerate. (FACTIVA) This part of Atlanta missed Olympic legacy 693 words 13 March 1999 The Toronto Star 1 (...) At Aleck's, where Dr. King himself would eat pulled pork drenched in Comeback Sauce, the joint was jumping every night. Alexander, whose family has run this business for nearly 50 years, loved every minute of it. But the tap shut off before the Games, gushed during the Games, and now it's as dry as a church social. (FACTIVA) HOT NIGHTS COOL CLUB THE HARLEM CLUB WAS SPOKANE'S ORIGINAL HIP HANGOUT, TAKING ITS CUE FROM THE FAME COTTON CLUB IN NEW YORK Story by Jim Kershner Staff writer 2,127 words 2 November 1997 The Spokesman Review SPOKANE E1 (...) Theo and E.J. presided over the kitchen. Theo's lemon pie was still one of the big draws. Since pie and liquor didn't always mix, the pie was more popular in the Harlem Club's tree-shaded family picnic area, called the "Oval Oasis." Brown's specialties were his tenderloin steaks ("fried in pure butter") and his fried chicken. "I still dream about those chicken dinners," said Adams, who went on to play jazz in clubs all over the Northwest and western Canada. She now lives in a Spokane nursing home, suffering from lupus. Brown had one other specialty: smokey slabs of ribs covered with his own "Comeback" sauce (see recipe). Brown, in fact, was featured as the city's "barbecued sparerib expert" in a 1958 Spokane Chronicle story after his retirement. In it, he discussed his philosophy of barbecue: (...) This sidebar appeared with the story: STRAIGHT FROM HARLEM CLUB'S KITCHEN Here are two recipes courtesy of Doris Mae Aaron: E.J. Brown's Comeback Sauce for Ribs 2 8-oz. cans of tomato sauce 5 tbsp. olive oil 1/2 cup brown sugar 1 clove garlic 1/2 cup molasses 2 diced onions 1/4 cup apple vinegar 2 tbsp. Worcestershire sauce 2 tsp. chili powder 2 tsp salt 2 cups red wine Hot peppers or hot sauce to taste Combine all ingredients in a large saucepan, cook slowly for approximately 45 minutes, or until sauce is thick Theo Brown's World Famous Lemon Pie 1/4 cup corn starch 2/3 cup sugar 1/2 tsp. salt 2 cups warm water 1/2 cup lemon juice Grated peel of 2 lemons 4 eggs, separated 3 tbsp. real butter Meringue ingredients (see below) One homemade pie crust, or ready-made pie crust In a 2-quart saucepan, measure cornstarch, sugar and salt. Stir and mix well. Slowly add whisked egg yolks, stirring all the while. Stir in 1/2 cup of warm water. Put on medium heat and cook slowly for five minutes. Slowly add remaining water, stirring constantly. Add lemon juice, lemon peel and butter. Cook slowly until mixture reaches slow boil, stirring all the while over medium low heat until it thickens. Remove from heat, and pour in a cooled, baked 9-inch pie crust. Meringue: Whisk 4 egg whites and a pinch of cream of tartar. Very slowly add 1/2 cup sugar and 1/4 tsp. salt until the mixture stands up in peaks, but not dry. Spread it atop the lemon filling. Bake at 350 degrees for at least 20 minutes. The top should be nicely browned. (FACTIVA) The Dixie Chic Inn Eve Zibart 1,041 words 16 July 1993 The Washington Post FINAL n10 (...) On the other hand, the corn-fried catfish fingers and the pecan-baked catfish are fine, although they're almost certainly farm cat rather than river and the "comeback sauce" (a sort of remoulade so called, if memory serves, because it's supposed to make sure ya'll come back) is kind of reticent. The country ham biscuits are close, but still on the roll call; the bowl of red beans will get you goin'. (FACTIVA) NEW CATALOG, RETAIL EFFORTS SPUR CUSACK MEAT SALES / 4 SONS OF HANK CUSACK BRING NEW IDEAS, GROWTH TO 52-YEAR OLD FIRM MAX NICHOLS 1,210 words 11 December 1985 The Journal Record (...) One major customers was the old YWCA restaurant downtown in the 1940s and 1950s. Cusack started providing a rolled roast and sliced fresh side pork, which became specialties there. When Eloise Paskvan left the YWCA to become head of food operations at Baptist Hospital, she started buying the hospital's meat from Cusack. "That was a big step for us," he said. "Now, we handle the meat for just about every hospital around here." Another major customer in those days was Ralph Stephens at the old Dolores Restaurant on NE 23rd St. "Ralph started ordering split tenderloins from us," said Cusack. "He would serve them on special steak sandwiches with Texas toast and his Comeback Sauce." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Decatur Review - 4/24/1927 ...Cottage Bar B-Q. Sandwiches with that COMEBACK SAUCE. 2500 N. Water. R. E. Carr.....lif Illf UK'hl Joyful Message to deaf in book by specialiflU It you art tmd for Olonn.. Decatur, Illinois Sunday, April 24, 1927 661 k Pg. ?, col. 7: White Cottage Bar B-Q. Sandwiches with that comeback sauce. --------------------------------------------------------------- POT STICKERS The Bonnie Slotnick cookbook store nearest me didn't turn up a citation before 1968. It's "wraplings" in an earlier version of the book, as a friend's e-mail also points out: Barry: I have a copy of How To Cook and Eat in Chinese - revised enlarged edition from 1949. The chiao-tzu are translated as "corners" or, as the author calls them, "wraplings." Helpful also is this book: DIM SUM by Rhoda Lee San Francisco: Taylor & NG 1977 Pg. 37 ("The Cooker's Mistake"): The Emperor wanted to know why his food was burnt. The son, who was a very quick witted fellow, explained that this was his new recipe called Pot Stickers, and that the bottom of each dumpling is supposed to be nice and brown. POT STICKERS (Kuo Teh) (Recipe follows--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 03:13:21 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:13:21 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Rationalism" In-Reply-To: <04CF77C0.44B3E6AA.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: rationalism (OED 1800) 1776 Boston, Thomas. Memoirs of the life, time, and writings, of the reverend and learned Thomas Boston, A.M. sometime minister at Simprin 380 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The gospel of Christ is by this time, with many, especially of the younger sort of divines, exchanged for rationalism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 03:19:23 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:19:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Federalism" In-Reply-To: <04CF77C0.44B3E6AA.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: federalism (OED 1793) 1792 tr. J. P. Brissot de Warville _New Travels in the United States of America_ 233 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The quarrel about federalism divided the town. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 1 04:03:16 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:03:16 -0500 Subject: Rodney Dangerfield. Was Re: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers Message-ID: I used to lie awake nights worrying that, when Rodney Dangerfield shuffled off this mortal coil, there would be no one to take his place. These days, I sleep like a baby. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers > No subject line and no e-mail address on the ADS-L Digests? Oh, all right. > This post on "Kumback/Comeback Sauce" and "Potstickers" is brought to you by Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com), famed "hot dog" etymologist, contributor to the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH, HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, and others. His goal in life is to earn enough money to pay for the Dell computer that he types on, and to quit adjudicating parking tickets five days a week. He usually gets no credit for his work, and no one loves him. > As usual, he spent a half hour on this post, only to see it destroyed. He is typing it again on another computer here at NYU. From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Mar 1 04:20:06 2004 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:20:06 -0600 Subject: Fwd: New Word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also, what's a word? Victoria On Sunday, Feb 29, 2004, 9:01 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > The notion of "one new word per day" from American English is, in my > humble opinion, a rather interesting if nebulous notion, > especially in an > election year. First of all, what's "new." Secondly, what > constitutes > "adding"? How many times must it be used and over what > period of time > before a neologism is "established"? I believe Robert > Burchfield once > opined that there were 800 new words per year. I am confident that > "one-a-day" and 800 (or about two per day) are very conservative > guesstimates, when one takes into consideration all the > technical fields > from boating to astrophysics. > > Regards, > David Barnhart > Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 04:29:21 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:29:21 -0500 Subject: Nesselrode pie (1944) Message-ID: ADS-L SIGNATURE This "Nesselrode pie" post is brought to you by Barry A. Popik, who has just returned from the New York Times Travel Show at the Javits Convention Center, where he discussed with MIR Corp. his upcoming trip to Belarus and Moldova. (He had traveled with MIR to Tibet, Mongolia, Korea, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the Ukraine, all in 2002.) Someone at the Travel Show asked him if he subscribed to the New York Times. He would receive a handy travel computer thingy if he did. And then he tried to tell this person the story how he solved "the Big Apple" twelve years ago, how he got two uncredited lines about it eight years ago, how there's now 200 lines in the City Section about "Nesselrode pie"... --------------------------------------------------------------- NESSELRODE PIE (OED) More fully Nesselrode cream, pie, pudding. An iced dessert made with chestnuts, cream, preserved fruits, etc., and freq. flavoured with rum. 1840 R. H. BARHAM Ingoldsby Legends III. 247 There was nothing so good in the whole of the Feed..As the great Lumpoff Icywitz' Nesselrode pudding! 1845 E. ACTON Mod. Cookery xx. 525 Nesselrode Cream,..Chestnuts..sugar..isinglass..cream..vanilla [etc]. 1894 E. SKUSE Compl. Confectioner 155 Nesselrode or Ice Pudding. Prepare a custard of one pint of cream, [etc.]. 1952 S. J. PERELMAN Ill-tempered Clavichord (1953) 12, I wouldn't bolt that Nesselrode if I were you. 1983 Listener 22-29 Dec. 25/3 Nesselrode pudding is made from sweetened chestnut pureé combined with an egg-and-cream cooked custard. Maraschino liqueur is used for flavouring, and raisins and currants are added as well. 1999 W. LEAST HEAT-MOON River Horse v. 139 Perhaps somewhere in the village was a relict fountain and an ancient sodaman who knew the secrets of a Tenderfoot Punch (2 ounces rum, 1 tablespoon Nesselrode pudding, grape juice, dash of bitters, shaved ice). - This "Nesselrode Pie" is from the "City" section of today's Sunday NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/nyregion/thecity/29ness.html By BERNARD GWERTZMAN Published: February 29, 2004 IN the summer of 1987, shortly after moving back to New York from Washington, I tried to buy a Nesselrode pie for my younger son's birthday. But that creamy, chiffon pie with accents of chocolate, candied fruit and rum that I remembered so well from my childhood in the Bronx seemed to have disappeared. I searched the obvious pastry shops. I asked in the obvious restaurants. I asked friends for tips. But as far as I could determine - this was not a scientific survey, mind you - Nesselrode was apparently no more. Like baked Alaska and Charlotte Russe, it seemed to have gone to the equivalent of food heaven. I was not alone in mourning the loss. Arthur Schwartz, the food writer and restaurant critic, wrote of Nesselrode pie on his Web site: "It's extinct now - no restaurant serves it, no bakery makes it - but this old New York dessert still lives vividly in the taste memories of many." On the Chowhound's message board: "Ahhh, Nesselrode pie. I was a fiend for it as a child at Ratner's on the Lower East Side. If we were in town, I'd make sure to leave room for a slice (even in the face of those baskets of onion rolls). Eventually, they never seemed to have it in and then alas, Ratner's was no more. Let the weeping commence." Even Howard Seftel, the food critic for the Arizona Republic, wrote as one of his 10 requests to Santa: "And if it's not too much trouble, find a pastry chef willing to bring back Nesselrode pie." Still, I couldn't believe that the pie was really impossible to find. So I started on a personal quest. Let me backtrack. The story begins for me, as it did for others, in the 1940's and 1950's, when my father, who loved Nesselrode pie, used to bring one home for special occasions. "I picked this up at Mrs. Spier's," he would inevitably say as he walked into our apartment at 3235 Grand Concourse or later, at our house in New Rochelle. "Mrs. Spier's," I learned during my search, was a wholesale pie bakery run by Hortense Spier at 24 West 90th Street on the Upper West Side. Her pièce de résistance was a dessert named after the 19th-century Russian foreign minister Count Karl Robert Nesselrode, a man who loved good food and had a talented chef named Mouy. The chef developed a dessert that eventually became known as Nesselrode pudding, which Mrs. Spier turned into a pie. Her children ran the business after she died, but by 1968 they were also dead. Although "Mrs. Spier's" provided the pie to many leading restaurants in the New York area, other bakeries had their own versions. You could find Nesselrode at Lindy's, Longchamps and steak houses and seafood restaurants throughout the region. You probably want to know what this pie tasted like. My memory is of a lot of whipped cream, chocolate shavings on top, candied fruits in the custard of the pie, and a rum flavor throughout. The original Nesselrode had chestnut purée; later recipes omit this ingredient. In a 31 March 2003 post on ADS-L, that 1840 "Nesselrode pudding" citation was submitted by me. But what about Nesselrode PIE? Newspaperarchive.com isn't very helpful on the pie. It does appear to come from New York City and Mrs. Hortense Spier. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Christmas in the Kitchen Marian Manners. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 9, 1951. p. G28 (2 pages) FIRST PAGE: Left: Crowning confection for Christmas or New Year's dinner is the glamorous, easy-to-make Nesselrode pie. Holiday Foods; Put your best recipe forward In keeping with the theme of our holiday food issue, on this and following pages we offer cherished recipes, accessories Your Best Recipe Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 11, 1956. p. Q14 (3 pages) A Pie by Any Name Tastes as Sweet; These Pies Take the Cake Arlington Reader. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 22, 1957. p. C12 (2 pages) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)(59 hits for "Nesselrode pie." The first hit below is for "Spier" and "Nesselrode"--ed.) News of Food; Acker, Merrall & Condit Back in Food Business, Specializing in Delicacies By JANE HOLT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 21, 1944. p. 18 (1 page): If pies are on your list for holiday meals, some exceptionally good ones, made by Hortense Spiers, may be found at Hearn's sweet shop. One is a nesselrode, prepared with macaroons and fruits and flavored with rum; it is fourteen inches in diameter. 1. News of Food; A PIE NAMED AFTER A RUSSIAN DIPLOMAT BY JANE HOLTThe New York Times Studio. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1945. p. 20 (1 page): PHOTO CAPTION: The gentleman was Count Karl Robert Nesselrode, who lived from 1780 to 1862, and who lent his name to a rich pudding. Later the recipe was adapted for use in an ice cream, and recently it has begun to appear in a pie. The mixture of raisins, almonds, macaroon crumbs and brandy is poured into a baked pie shell and chilled. (...) NESSELRODE PIE 1 tablespoon gelatin 1 1/2 cups milk 3 eggs, separated 1/3 cup chopped raisins 2 tablespoons ground almonds 1 cup broken macaroons 1 tablespoon brandy or rum 1 teaspoon vanilla 1/8 teaspoon salt 1/3 cup sugar 1 baked nine-inch pie shell Maraschino cherries Soften gelatin in one-quarter cup milk. Scald remaining one and a quarter cups milk in the top of a double boiler. Beat egg yolks slightly, add milk, stirring, and return to double boiler. Add gelatin, and cook, stirring, till mixture coats spoon. Add raisins, almonds, macarooons, brandy or rum, vanilla and salt. Chill till beginning to set. Beat egg whites, add sugar and beat till stiff. Fold into gelatin mixture. Pour into a baked pie shell and chill till firm. Garnish with maraschino cherries. Serves eight. 2. News of Food; Four Recipes Tested in Times' Kitchen Reprinted as Favorite Formulas of 1945 By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 1, 1946. p. 23 (1 page) 3. New Hungarian Pastries Now on Sale; Elderberries Thrifty for Home Growth By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 3, 1947. p. 32 (1 page) 4. Sugar and Spice and Many Things Nice Go Into the 24 Recipes in a New Booklet By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 22, 1947. p. 12 (1 page) 5. Display Ad 10 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1948. p. 2 (1 page) 6. News of Food; New Fluid Flavorings Now Are Available To Give Home Cooks 'Culinary Courage' By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 6, 1948. p. 26 (1 page) 7. Display Ad 25 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 8, 1948. p. 26 (1 page) 8. Display Ad 17 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 22, 1948. p. 18 (1 page) 9. News of Food; Citronade Cake, Developed in Hungary, Offered to Mark Opening of New Shop New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 30, 1948. p. 16 (1 page) 10. Display Ad 23 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 12, 1949. p. 22 (1 page) (...) 55. The Culinary Mystery of Nesselrode Pie; The once-popular dessert features pureed chestnuts. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1988. p. C20 (1 page): In the case of Nesselrode, the conclusion was that it had gone the way of baked Alaska. (...) The man who created Nesselrode pudding, according to Larousse, was the count's hea chef, one Monsieur Mouy. He put together a custard cream mixed with chestnut puree, candied fruits, currants and white raisins and whipped cream. An earlier edition of Larousse calls for freezing the Nesselrode pudding. George Lang says Nesselrode coupe, which was essentially the same thing as frozen Nesselrode pudding, was very popular in New York restaurants from the 1920's through the 1950's. For me, Nesselrode pie is always associated with New York. I remember having it at a restaurant here as a child--possibly the Cafe de la Paix in the St. Moritz Hotel, but a call there produced no one who had been there long enough to remember. Which brings me to Mrs. Spier--Hortense Spier, according to Mr. Baum and William Greenberg, the owner of William Greenberg Jr., a much-admired bakery in New York. Both men associate Nesselrode pie with Mrs. SPier, whose company, Hortense Spier Pies, sold pies to restaurants all over the city in the 40's and 50's. Nesselrode Days (Letter--ed.) JEAN LIBMAN BLOCK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 22, 1989. p. C8 (1 page) (OT: I am currently trying to get "the Big Apple" story published in a New Orleans publication, 12 years too late. I appreciate the TIMES publishing, instead, a story about "Nesselrode pie"--a story that the TIMES has already run in full--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 05:00:01 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:00:01 -0500 Subject: Croissant (1896) Message-ID: Andy Smith asked about the "croissant" on rec.food.historic. I think OED and Merrriam-Webster have about 1900. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Article 1 -- No Title Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Apr 1896. p. 598 (11 pages): Pg. 616: HOW TO DIGEST CHOCOLATE.--As a nation the French are in advance of us in their application of the chemistry of food. Their little school-children may be seen daily enjoying a luncheon of a piece of bread or a little roll or croissant with a bar of plain chocolate, not creams, and nothing is more nourishing for them, while French, Italians, and Spaniards alike dip bread into their morning cup of chocolate. 2. STUDENTS LIVING EXPENSES IN PARIS. The Art Amateur; A Monthly Journal Devoted to Art in the Household (1879-1903). New York: Oct 1896. Vol. 35, Iss. 5; p. 97 (2 pages) First page: A bowl of cafe-au-lait or chocolate cost me 3 cents--larger bowls 4 cents; breads or croissants (circulat-shaped rolls), 1 cent apiece. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 07:41:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:41:29 EST Subject: Boil-in-Bag (1958) Message-ID: BOIL-IN-BAG (by Barry Popik) Oh all right, I'll do every item on rec.food.historic. Maybe not, but this person is way off. I'll do the stuff for Grant Barrett tomorrow. (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: C Engelmann (zuchtschnecke at hotmail.com) Subject: Who invented boil-in-bag rice? Newsgroups: rec.food.historic Date: 2004-02-27 09:59:04 PST Well, in Germany it appeared about 1970, under the name "Reis-Fit".But the company who presented it doesn't claim to have invented it.So who was the first? Thanks!-Carsten (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Van Nuys News - 10/15/1959 ...air Frozen Bel-air Economy Pack Fradelit "BOIL-IN-BAG" Quick Meal Ideas Manor House.....Boneless m SAKWAY CANDI-CANE SUGAR 5-lb. BAG 33 with this coupon Good Sun. Oct. 15, 18.....17, 18 At Safewayt IN Lot Angeles and Orange Countiei, plus San.. Van Nuys, California Thursday, October 15, 1959 362 k Pg. 2-B Safeway supermarket ad: Beef Stew Fradelis "Boil-in-Bag" 2 10-oz. pkgs. 89c Valley News - 3/6/1958 ...FLAVOR AUD VARIETY LD EXTRA NIPPY LASCCO BOIL IN BAG FINNAN HADDiE O'SO TENDER MEATS.. Van Nuys, California Thursday, March 06, 1958 405 k Pg. 5-C supermarket ad: LASCCO . BOIL IN BAG FINNAN HADDIE Times Recorder - 6/26/1960 ...of mashed potatoes and a paslry shell. BOIL-IN-BAG items INcluded broccoli.....black. They come IN fINe graINed leathers, IN brushed and suedes, IN waxed fINishes.....two heavily-breaded fish steak dINners, one IN lobster sauce and the other, IN shrimp.....as an elementary school teacher at Philo IN the fall. While IN college the bride was.. Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, June 26, 1960 692 k Salisbury Times - 12/27/1961 ...of expansion of THE already fast growINg BOIL-INTHE-BAG sales. THEy also count on.....IN THE BAG. Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG special diets for hospital or home use.....THE Modern Foods Council says 100 million BOIL-IN-THE-BAG units were sold this year.....Phone PI 9-5432 Frozen Vegetables Come IN BOIL -ln-THE-BAG Pack By SAM DAWSON AP.. Salisbury, Maryland Wednesday, December 27, 1961 684 k Gettysburg Times - 12/27/1961 ...of expansion of THE already fast growINg BOIL-INTHE-BAG sales. THEy also count on.....GREETINGS Once IN an old time picture book My faTHEr called on me to look Upon a.....IN THE BAG. Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG prINciple makes possible packINg special.....THE Modern Foods Council says 100 million BOIL- IN-THE-BAG units were sold this year.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 27, 1961 752 k Newark Advocate - 12/27/1961 ...100 food items so packaged Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG :bv atxju 40 food processors.....cook frozen raw foods and lhe 100 million BOIL-IN-THE-BAG units _ THE vitamIN content.....remaINder goINg back m to buv BOIL-INtTHE-BAG foods. flage; a Face: 1 :00-Day IN Court.....of expansion ;of THE already fast growINg BOIL-INCan Co. which supplies polyethyhhe-BAG.. Newark, Ohio Wednesday, December 27, 1961 530 k Jefferson Bee - 4/26/1960 ...IN INdividual por tions will be IN new BOIL-IN-THE-BAG plastic contaINers. THEy can.....or heated IN water withou removINg THE BAG. accordINg to Jewel Graham, extension.....is to be published IN THE ballotINg Friday IN THE IN a medical journal IN THE near.....off. THE route brought all of THEm back to THE Rrenneman home as THE fINish lINe. It.. Jefferson, Iowa Tuesday, April 26, 1960 636 k Zanesville Signal - 11/19/1958 ...IN THE development stage. THEre are BOIL-IN-THE-BAG vegetables. You drop THE specially.....treated BAG IN BOILINg water for 10 mINutes and out.....live arc IN THEir late 50's. 60's and even THE 70's. Yet IN our focus upon THE thIN gs of.....suffered most cruelly IN World War I. IN THE grINdINg trench warfare of THE era.. Zanesville, Ohio Wednesday, November 19, 1958 731 k Pg. 7?, col. 5: Some clever packaging items are showing up these days and a lot of others are in the development stage. There are boil-in-the-bag vegetables. You drop the specially-treated bag in boiling water for 10 minutes and out comes an individual serving ready to eat. Van Nuys News - 9/24/1959 ...IN BAG Eroren Roiis Fradelis "BOIL IN THE BAG" Frozen SPAGHETTI MEAT BALLS OR TASTY.....lation. I and 30 of his colleagues, is '2. THE sharp upturn IN busi-J pendINg IN THE.....ThIN column by THE ROTemINent division of THE National Association of and THE views ex.....v, ami ei i id VPI 'IN; thp fi. uni'.n HUM, IN uenei mdii-try a, a long Ftf IN i IIP l.. Van Nuys, California Thursday, September 24, 1959 463 k Monroe County News - 2/21/1966 ...He also foresaw the INtroduction of BOIL-IN-BAG home-style foods that normally.....s for MedicINe Davis PaINt Store Duncan Book Storo GROCERS Hy-Vee Food Storo United.....They would INclude corn on the cob. RICE, and pasta. If the market becomes big.....PAINTS WALLPAPER Davis PaINt Storo Dvncan Book Storo SHOES A. and A. Shoe Store Ralph N.. Albia, Iowa Monday, February 21, 1966 310 k Pg. 5, col. 1: Cosgrove, president of Green Giant Co., mentioned the steadily growing popularity of ethnic foods such as Italian, Chinese and Mexican, and speculated that sauced foods, widely used in French cookery, would lend themselves especially well to freezer processing. He also foresaw the introduction of boil-in-bag home-style foods that normally are boiled in preparation. They would include corn on the cob, rice, and pasta. Washington Post - 11/27/1911 ...IN the eggs. Knead all together and BOIL IN BAG four hourfc. The puddINg can be kept.....ali Air Cushions, IN leather oases, each. Book and MagalINe Cov ers, each. Fitted.....PAGE. Jewel, a paINtINg, a statue or a book will fetch. These gems have been brought.....this statement, but Otero cried, mort IN dignantly IN court: believe IN the Bible.. Washington, District Of Columbia (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark BOIL 'N BAG Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: PREPARED MEAT AND POULTRY ENTREES. FIRST USE: 19771111. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19771111(CANCELLED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: PREPARED PASTA ENTREES. FIRST USE: 19771111. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19771111 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 110313 190725 Serial Number 73152043 Filing Date December 14, 1977 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1139272 Registration Date September 2, 1980 Owner (REGISTRANT) GREEN GIANT COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE HAZELTINE GATES CHASKA MINNESOTA 55318 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BAG" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date January 29, 1987 From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 1 13:19:20 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:19:20 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette Message-ID: From: Damien Hall : Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their : posts clear? I've posted about this before, making two specific : requests: : 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? Happily done. : 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body : of the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? : What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due : to the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the : individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at : the top of them... Um, Damien, as someone who receives the digest version of this list, I'll just point out that your post came in the middle of the list with the following information at the top of it: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500 From: Damien Hall Subject: Posting etiquette In fact, I used that to rename the subject line *and* to attribute what you'd written. BTW, for the person who asked why anyone would ever get the digest version of this list--I've got two reasons: (1) It's less difficult to lose one big email a day amidst all my spam than lots of little ones. (2) I'd rather hit CTRL-D once to delete one email after reading it than click CTRL-D gobs and bunches of times after reading the same information in lots of little emails. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 1 13:25:04 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:25:04 -0500 Subject: ordering of authors' names Message-ID: From: Arnold Zwicky : anne mark of mit press explains the abandonment of alphabetical order: :: The change had to do with academic culture. Some authors felt that :: other linguists (including potential employers and tenure :: committees) assume that the first-named author of a paper is the :: primary author. Sometimes when author X considered himself or herself :: the primary author of a paper yet was named second, alphabetically, :: after author A, the authors asked to insert a footnote reading "The :: authors' names appear in alphabetical order." This seemed awkward, so :: we finally decided to simply let the authors themselves determine the :: order of their names. I recall reading (no cite, no guarantee of accuracy) about some economists who surveyed their field to find out whether alphabetical ordering of authors was considered a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. The result? Everybody was at least sort of okay with it, but the closer an individual's last name came to the beginning of the alphabet, the more likely they were to think it was a Good Thing. The explanation given was *not* that those with names near the beginning saw an advantage in being more likely to come first, but rather that there was safety in having a consistent reason for their names coming first. That is, those with names near the beginning of the alphabet have more to lose in situations of non-alphabetical name order--while those with names near the end of the alphabet exist in a state of comfortable ambiguity when their names are last, those with names near the beginning of the alphabet are *clearly* listed as a secondary author or less when their names come late in the list. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 1 14:16:42 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:16:42 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: "Make like a tree and leave" In-Reply-To: <4a.2878c885.2d73e812@aol.com> Message-ID: This is the way I learned it in the late 60's - early 70's in Utah. --- Jerry Kane wrote: > I was born in Los Angeles in 1942. I always heard > and used "make like a tree > and leaf". > > Jerry Kane ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 1 15:29:55 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:29:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: cialis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:28 PM -0600 2/29/04, Gerald Cohen wrote: >To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was >discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that >Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger." > > But what about "cialis"? > >Gerald Cohen > >>Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:46 -0600 >>From: callary ed >>Subject: cialis >>To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >> >>Does anyone know the story behind the creation of the brand name Cialis, >>which joinv Viagra and Levitra in the "ED" market? >> >>Viagra is easily evocative with connotations of vim, vigor and vitality >>with the image of Niagra Falls in the background, and Levitra has >>association with Elevation, Levitation, and the like, but Cialis? I've always enjoyed deriving "Levitra" from "le vit" (colloquial French designation for the male organ) + "ra" (cheer). Larry Horn From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Mar 1 17:20:38 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:20:38 -0800 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040229150630.02ef95e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: --On Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:35 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is > it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" > or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? > > Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts > verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? > > Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands > nothing"? > > Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of > German? > > Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + > "forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it > is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910: > http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ] > > [Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ... > but not to me.] The answer is far from obvious to someone well-versed in German, but to me an explanation involving English word order is equally nonsensical. "Nothing understand"??? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 1 17:36:41 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:36:41 -0500 Subject: Movie Hopping Message-ID: Today's Zits comic strip mentions "movie hopping," a term new to me: "Nobody sees 'a' movie anymore, Mom. You start in one theater, but as soon as it gets boring, you switch to another theater and watch that movie until it gets boring, and so on. It's called 'movie hopping' Everybody does it." Google has 696 page references. The earliest use on Google Groups is from 7/3/92: "Steve and I went to see Boomerang tonight. It was a really good movie. I reccomend it for when you get back from your trip. We also saw Batman Returns...we went movie hopping at Tigard Cinemas." The L.A. Times is slightly later, with 7/25/92 and a slightly different definition: "'It is true you can buy a ticket and go in a theater and movie hop to any movie you want,' said one 11-year-old. Movie hopping, she explained, is when your parents drop you off at a multiplex theater, you buy a ticket for a PG-rated show, then once inside switch theaters to any R-rated show you want to see. John Baker From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Mar 1 17:37:26 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:37:26 -0800 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Sunday, February 29, 2004 5:22 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit! > From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region". In >> Ontario (the >> real one, not that town south of you, Arnold), > > i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario. anyway, that other > ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live > in. > >> region is used frequently to >> refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie >> region, >> or the region of Oshawa. Last fall while at our cottage we heard a >> London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had >> happened >> "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to >> us (I'm >> from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central >> Indiana). > > "in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but, > really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english). > > there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as > serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three > times. a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been > "the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area". > > but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)" > that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the > u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway to > take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond), > and so on. > > just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and > also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the > same. Exactly, and unless Canadian English is different from American on this point, it sounds to me as if the reader wasn't referring to some quasi-official designation but was using "in the region of" to mean "somewhere near." I'm pretty sure I've heard "region" used in this context as a substitute for "neighborhood" where the area in question is felt to be too big to qualify as a "neighborhood." Are you sure that "the Barrie region" would parallel "the region of Oshawa" in Canadian usage? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Mon Mar 1 17:46:05 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:46:05 -0500 Subject: live by the dictionary or submit! Message-ID: Peter, All I'm going on is news reader usage on CBC TV coming out of London-Kitchener. But there the usage varies between "the region of X" and "the X region", with apparently the same pragmatics as "the handle of the cup" and "the cup's handle". Herb --On Sunday, February 29, 2004 5:22 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit! > From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > > On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region". In >> Ontario (the >> real one, not that town south of you, Arnold), > > i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario. anyway, that other > ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live > in. > >> region is used frequently to >> refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie >> region, >> or the region of Oshawa. Last fall while at our cottage we heard a >> London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had >> happened >> "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to >> us (I'm >> from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central >> Indiana). > > "in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but, > really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english). > > there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as > serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three > times. a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been > "the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area". > > but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)" > that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the > u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway to > take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond), > and so on. > > just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and > also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the > same. Exactly, and unless Canadian English is different from American on this point, it sounds to me as if the reader wasn't referring to some quasi-official designation but was using "in the region of" to mean "somewhere near." I'm pretty sure I've heard "region" used in this context as a substitute for "neighborhood" where the area in question is felt to be too big to qualify as a "neighborhood." Are you sure that "the Barrie region" would parallel "the region of Oshawa" in Canadian usage? Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 17:46:21 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:46:21 EST Subject: Movie Hopping; Croissant (1875) Message-ID: (MOVIE HOPPING This "movie hopping" post is brought to you by Barry Popik, who has never done it because it's illegal.) I've heard this "movie hopping" term since the 1970s. That's when the "multiplexes" came on in force. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CROISSANT Here. have another "croissant." I was in a rush because NYU was closing at midnight..."Croissant" results in many hits, so I usually add the word "bread." The "croissant" allegedly comes from the 17th century, but OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER both have 1899. (MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL) The Living age ... / Volume 124, Issue 1601: pp. 385-448 p. 445 1 match of 'croissants' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 124, Issue 16 Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: February 13, 1875 City: New York etc. Pg. 445: ...quaint mediaeval signs, too, figure on several of the houses, while hanging outside the bakers' shops are large frames containing models, coloured after nature, of the different kinds of bread sold within, including not merely loaves of all sizes, but rolls, _flutes_, _croissants_, _Semmeln_, and the like. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 18:30:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:30:51 EST Subject: "Ralph" (Nader) Message-ID: RALPH (brought to you by Barry Popik, who usually Ed Nortons) http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040308&s=chait030804 "Make You Ralph" (i.e., vomit) is the above story about Ralph Nader. "Ralph" is in the American Heritage Dictionary, but not Merriam-Webster. The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has 1970s+. "Echoic" is given. The HDAS currently stops at the letter "O." But was it at all influenced by Ralph Kramden of Jackie Gleason HONEYMOONERS fame, or Ralph Nader? Ralph Mouth? RALPH MOUTH--606 Google hits, 268 Google Groups hits From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Mar 1 19:02:13 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:02:13 -0000 Subject: "Ralph" (Nader) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Cassell Dictionary of Slang has 1970s+. "Echoic" is given. I've pushed it back a bit: _Current Slang_ (1967) lists it for 1964. I still go for 'echoic' though; as I would for 'hughie' (usu. 'call for hughie', 'buick', 'herb' (as in 'call for herb'), 'earl' (with inpit of course from 'hurl') and such as 'barf', 'burk', 'woof', 'yuke', and 'ook'. The finest example of such echoisms must be Connie Eble's inclusion in Campus Slang (Mar. 1979): 'go to Europe with Ralph and Earl in a Buick.' Jonathon Green From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 1 20:33:32 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:33:32 -0500 Subject: "smackdown" Message-ID: Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999 debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation', _not_ in phrases of the sort _lay_ (or _put_) _the smack down_. Thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 20:37:44 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:44 EST Subject: "C-level" Message-ID: I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld. Page 4: "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying the C-lvel title and a fancy-schmancy office. With the arrival of software as a service, the breadth of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking." letter to the editor page 19 column 2: "If a person has a C-lvel title, he needs to actively contribut to the creation and implementation of company strategy. Suggesting otherwise is absurd. CFOs are expected to be more than accountants, and COOs are expected to be more than factory foremen." Thye meaning is "a top-level job in a company whose title begins with the word "chief"", e.g. CEO, COO, CFO (Chief Fianacial Officer), CIO (Chief INformation Officer.) I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP" In a message dated Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500, Damien Hall says: >if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't > have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. I receive the digest version and each post in the digest has DATE, FROM, and SUBJECT. - James A. Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 1 20:46:37 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:46:37 -0500 Subject: "smackdown" Message-ID: Here's a little earlier, from the St. Petersburg Times, 3/1/98: "Young, cuddly Bucs went 11-7, including a playoff smackdown of Detroit." And Google Groups has this from 1/30/96, from the rec.sport.basketball.pro newsgroup: "Considering the Smackdown that Jeffery gave you, Josh, I'll defer to many of his points and add a few of my own." A band named Hip Hop Fanatics included a song named Smackdown on an album called Stompin 4 Da '94, released 4/11/94, according to Amazon, but I don't know what sense was intended. John baker From simon at IPFW.EDU Mon Mar 1 21:08:14 2004 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:14 -0500 Subject: "word" Message-ID: i missed this - was there a discussion here recently about use of the word WORD as a replacement for something else, esp in email interaction? thanks beth beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 us voice 01 260 481 6761; fax 01 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 1 21:50:31 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:50:31 -0500 Subject: Posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <200403010500.i21507vq016831@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: First a definition: A digest on a mailing list is a compilation of all the messages sent in a single day (or by some other criterion/a), mailed out as one mailing. My status report from the listserver says: DIGEST You receive list digests, rather than individual postings This definition also applies to most mailing lists that I know of. Here is the start of Damien Hall's message on "Posting etiquette", copied and pasted exactly from the digest that was in my inbox this morning: >>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500 From: Damien Hall Subject: Posting etiquette Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts clear? I've posted about this before, making two specific requests: 1. Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts? 2. Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail? What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them. <<<<< I see Damien's name and email address at the top of his post, as on every post in every digest. I don't understand why he doesn't. Maybe he has, perhaps unwittingly, chosen an option to suppress them. I quote from the welcome message I received on subscribing: >>>>> More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU. <<<<< Sam Clements asks: >>>>> Question: WHY does one just get the digest instead of the whole list? <<<<< I can only answer for this value of "one". This list is professionally relevant to me, and I subscribe at my office, where I keep my email connection open all day. I can't afford to be continually distracted by incoming ADS-L (or other list) emails. The LINGUIST List sends out several issues each day, many of which are compilations, or "digests" in the above sense. They also offer a "LINGUIST Lite" option, which simply lists the author and topic of each issue and a link to click on. For a similar reason, I take their Lite option. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 21:57:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:57:29 -0500 Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948) Message-ID: I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN (brought to you by Barry Popik, who has tried to send this three times) I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN--4,870 Google hits, 4.820 Google Groups hits While we're at the beautiful "C," I thought of "IC." Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this? (GOOGLE GROUPS) contradictions "I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," said the blind man to his deaf wife as he stuck his wooden leg ... rec.humor - Feb 21, 1998 by Claudia Heyman - View Thread (1 article) Canonical List of Contradictions ver 1.0 ... uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thanks. --begin jokes here-- "I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," said the blind ... rec.humor - May 9, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (1 article) Canonical List of Condractions(?) ... Enjoy... Canonical List of Blind Man...??I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. ... rec.humor - Feb 28, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (6 articles) csv-0.4 (John Machin release) released ... In Microsoft created CSV files this is done by doubling them: 1,2,3,"""I see,"" said the blind man","as he picked up his hammer and saw" Excel and Access quite ... comp.lang.python.announce - Jul 12, 2001 by Dave Cole - View Thread (1 article) Re: I see, said the blind man... "I see," said the blind man to his deaf wife as she heard the quadrapeligic children running down the hall... that's how it went when I was in grade school. ... rec.humor - Jan 30, 1994 by Cathy Clare - View Thread (26 articles) (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall, Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948 Description: 192 p. ; 20 cm. Language: English Series: A Bloodhound mystery; Contents: A sin and a shame -- A fine and deadly mist -- The wife, the husband. and the pretty girl -- "I see," said the blind man -- A flask of sluggish fleas -- Marked for death -- Glint of evil -- Showdown -- The wishing well -- Grandmother's funeral -- Session at the dentist's -- A plague on both houses -- The open mind of D.N. Ferris -- Widow in mouring -- Mama's boy -- Visitors -- Ferris draws his pistol -- The girl is dangerous. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 1 22:05:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: C-Level (2000) Message-ID: C-LEVEL (Brought to you by Barry Popik, who first posted this here in 2000, then has tried three times to post this again. Nothing is easy. Ever...I left today open to go to the NYU Fales Library to check the cookbooks. Fales is open to 6 p.m. They just told me they're really open to 3 p.m. because of staff cuts. Every day of my life is like this.) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:59:45 (...) C-LEVEL Didn't the top used to be A-level, as in A-Number One? Nothing beats a pun (C-level/sea level), I suppose. There are quite a few relevant hits on the Dow Jones database. From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 30, col. 2 ad: _C-LEVEL_ _JOB TITLES._ _C-NOTE-FILLED_ _WALLETS._ The C means clout. And our readers have it. 52% of them hold C-level job titles and the average overall net worth of $1.8 million dollars means they're looking to buy. (...) _RED HERRING_ RED HOT From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 1 22:37:40 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:37:40 -0500 Subject: IP (Was: "C-level") Message-ID: "IP," as an abbreviation for intellectual property, has been around a few years. I think it began, and to a significant extent remains, as a legal term. Lawyers who specialized in the area got tired of being called patent lawyers, when they also had other important responsibilities. The earliest use of IP I see is from a 1984 seminar outline on Westlaw: Practising Law Institute PLI Order No. B4-6688 September 18, 1984 Seventh Annual Institute for Corporate Counsel: Acquisitions and Divestitures ACQUISITION AND DIVESTITURE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY Evelyn M. Sommer: >>As used herein, intellectual property includes 1. Patents 2. Trademarks 3. Copyrights 4. Trade Secrets 5. "Technology" = know how .... B. Role of Counsel for Acquiring Company 1. Merger situation--little direct responsibility 2. Acquisition situation-- a). Letter of intent or preliminary agreement--require statement that seller will transfer or license (royalty free?) all IP necessary to continue the business. b) Similar clause in Final Agreement in order to cover any "forgotten" IP<< Note that "intellectual property" is carefully defined, while "IP" is used in only one place in the outline, without definition, even though lawyers frequently define obvious abbreviations. I take this to mean that "IP" was an informal term that the writer used inadvertently. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "C-level" I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld. Page 4: "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying the C-lvel title and a fancy-schmancy office. With the arrival of software as a service, the breadth of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking." [clip] I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP" - James A. Landau From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 1 22:47:51 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:47:51 -0500 Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948) In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: My mother (born 1906) used this phrase all the time and must have known it from childhood. At 04:57 PM 3/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN (brought to you by Barry Popik, who has tried to >send this three times) > >I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN--4,870 Google hits, 4.820 Google Groups hits > >While we're at the beautiful "C," I thought of "IC." >Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this? > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >contradictions >"I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," >said the blind man to his deaf wife as he stuck his wooden leg ... >rec.humor - Feb 21, 1998 by Claudia Heyman - View Thread (1 article) > >Canonical List of Contradictions ver 1.0 >.... uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thanks. --begin jokes here-- "I see," said the >blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," said the blind ... >rec.humor - May 9, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (1 article) > >Canonical List of Condractions(?) >.... Enjoy... Canonical List of Blind Man...??I >see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. ... >rec.humor - Feb 28, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (6 articles) > >csv-0.4 (John Machin release) released >.... In Microsoft created CSV files this is done by doubling them: >1,2,3,"""I see,"" said >the blind man","as he picked up his hammer and saw" Excel and Access quite ... >comp.lang.python.announce - Jul 12, 2001 by Dave Cole - View Thread (1 >article) > >Re: I see, said the blind man... >"I see," said the blind man to his deaf wife as she heard the >quadrapeligic children >running down the hall... that's how it went when I was in grade school. ... >rec.humor - Jan 30, 1994 by Cathy Clare - View Thread (26 articles) > > >(OCLC WORLDCAT) >Title: A killer is loose among us / >Author(s): Terrall, Robert. >Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, >Year: 1948 >Description: 192 p. ; 20 cm. >Language: English >Series: A Bloodhound mystery; >Contents: A sin and a shame -- A fine and deadly mist -- The wife, the >husband. and the pretty girl -- "I see," said the blind man -- A flask of >sluggish fleas -- Marked for death -- Glint of evil -- Showdown -- The >wishing well -- Grandmother's funeral -- Session at the dentist's -- A >plague on both houses -- The open mind of D.N. Ferris -- Widow in mouring >-- Mama's boy -- Visitors -- Ferris draws his pistol -- The girl is dangerous. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 1 23:02:35 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:02:35 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078132838@[10.218.203.245]> Message-ID: The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no subject, in all pidgins. Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc. The German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs. At 09:20 AM 3/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--On Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:35 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" > wrote: > >>But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is >>it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" >>or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? >> >>Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts >>verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? >> >>Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands >>nothing"? >> >>Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of >>German? >> >>Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + >>"forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it >>is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910: >>http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ] >> >>[Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ... >>but not to me.] > >The answer is far from obvious to someone well-versed in German, but to me >an explanation involving English word order is equally nonsensical. >"Nothing understand"??? > >Peter Mc. > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Mar 2 00:34:00 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:34:00 -0500 Subject: -- not! Message-ID: We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " -- not!" I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find it in the archives. So -- Here is at least a pretty early example: It Was Some Opening -- Not. Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4. [Headline to a story: opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed out.] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 2 00:39:53 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:39:53 -0500 Subject: "smackdown" Message-ID: How about 24 Oct, 1947. Newark(OH) Advocate. page blurry/1 [headline: Welcome Smackdown] If the Taft-hartley Act never accomplishes another thing, it can rest on its laurels, confident that it has led to the rap heard 'round the picket lines, and proud of its achievement. (It goes on to talk about John L. Lewis. ) SC From: "Jesse Sheidlower" > Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999 > debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically > in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation', From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 2 01:44:28 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:44:28 -0500 Subject: "smackdown" In-Reply-To: <20040301203332.GA20349@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999 > debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically > in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation', _not_ in > phrases of the sort _lay_ (or _put_) _the smack down_. 1990 _Windsor Star_ 27 Dec. [article beginning on page A11] (Factiva) No fewer than four students have been suspended for smooching in violation of Allan Herchek's edict, pushing Lamont to the brink of a campus revolt. ... The kids in Lamont think his smackdown reeks of Orwellian rule. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Mar 2 02:09:10 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:09:10 -0600 Subject: -- not! Message-ID: >>From George Thompson, Mon, 1 Mar 2004: > >We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by >making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " -- >not!" I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find >it in the archives. > >So -- > >Here is at least a pretty early example: > >It Was Some Opening -- Not. >Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4. [Headline to a story: >opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed >out.] > >GAT > >George A. Thompson Jesse Sheidlower wrote an article in American Speech on this topic. The use of "...Not!" goes back to the 19th century. Gerald Cohen From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 2 02:28:53 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:28:53 -0500 Subject: -- not! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 08:09:10PM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >From George Thompson, Mon, 1 Mar 2004: > > > >We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by > >making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " -- > >not!" I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find > >it in the archives. > > > >So -- > > > >Here is at least a pretty early example: > > > >It Was Some Opening -- Not. > >Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4. [Headline to a story: > >opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed > >out.] > > > >GAT > > > >George A. Thompson > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote an article in American Speech on this topic. > The use of "...Not!" goes back to the 19th century. Thanks, Jerry. That article was written with Jon Lighter, and, since then, Barry (remember him?) has found earlier evidence. 1913 is still good, though. Jesse Sheidlower From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 2 02:59:00 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:59:00 -0500 Subject: Attack Ad (1976); Belligerati (2000); Blue Slip (1950) Message-ID: (This post on political terms is brought to you by Barry "remember him?" Popik.) Literature Online no longer works here at NYU, so I can't check up on "croissant." Factiva works on the Dells; ProQuest works on the Apple Macs. The screen goes blank at least once per search. The blue bar stops at least once per search. I'm going crazy. Here's a few stuff I gotta do. ATTACK AD (22 September 1985) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) To the Boring May Go the Spoils By NORMAN C MILLER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 15, 1976. p. 12 (1 page) : Thus, TV "attack ads" will deride Mr. Carter's presidential credentials, depicting him as just a one-term, big-spending governor of Georgia. BELLIGERATI (10 April 2001) (GOOGLE GROUPS) African 'Clients' responding to Soviet 'training' ... Shaking off the stun, the other advisors tried to rush to the aid of their fallen belligeratti comrade, but came up short when several of the other present ... rec.aviation.military - Mar 16, 2000 by Gordon - View Thread (4 articles) Fanatismo perigoso : O poderosíssimo lobby Judeu nos EUA. ... urging you - nay, commanding you - to go check out the Warblogger Watch, a great place to keep track of the foam-flecked rantings of the cyber-belligeratti. ... pt.soc.politica - Apr 12, 2002 by A VERDADE - View Thread (1 article) (ALTERNATIVE PRESS WATCH) 1. The belligerati Joy Press. The Village Voice. New York: Nov 6, 2001. Vol. 46, Iss. 44; p. 59 (1 page) 2. Letters Anonymous. The Village Voice. New York: Nov 13, 2001. Vol. 46, Iss. 45; p. 6 (1 page) BLUE SLIP (12 May 1954) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Senate Hearing on California Judges Delayed Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 13, 1950. p. 28 (1 page) : Chairman McCarran (D) Nev., the only Judiciary Subcommittee member present at the hour set for hearing, said the committee hadd not received rcommendations of the California Bar nor "blue slips" from California Senators. "Blue slips" are forms supplied by the Judiciary Committee to permit Senators to note their endorsement or objection to nominees. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 2 03:03:13 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:03:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Marxism" In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Marxism (OED3 1887) 1883 _Liberty: Not the Daughter But the Mother of Order_ 14 Apr. 1 (American Periodical Series) He is the principal representative of Marxism in France. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 2 03:08:11 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:08:11 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Marxist" In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Marxist (OED3 1886) 1873 _Times_ (London) 5 Sept. 6 At the Congress of Bologna a cotery of Marxists had tried to impede all progress, but in vain. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 2 03:15:10 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:15:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of chicle(gum) 1884 Message-ID: M-w and OED have 1889. >From the NYTimes(Proquest), March 24, 1884. "In the basement of a substantial four-story brick building in Murray-street a Times reporter was shown the other day a great heap of what seemed to be broken pieces of putty. Barrels and boxes around the room were filled with the substance. "That," said the proprietor of the establishment, "is chicle. It is the dried juice of the sapota tree, of Mexico. Seventeen years ago, when Gen. Santa Anna was in this country, his secretary had with him a piece of this chicle. " Sam Clements...... Another Straightdope followup. How'd you guess? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 2 03:19:50 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:19:50 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Racism" In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: racism (OED 1936) 1934 _Forum and Century_ Jan. 9 (American Periodical Series) From the time of Luther and beyond it the German people have at intervals shown themselves infatuated with ideas of racism and with notions of withdrawing themselves from the influence of other races. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Mar 2 03:40:03 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:40:03 -0800 Subject: IP (Was: "C-level") In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B615C@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: "IP" is widely used in the business world and not simply by IP lawyers. In the high tech business world IP is not simply a legal question, it figures into a company's valuation and its business strategy. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Baker, John > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: IP (Was: "C-level") > > > "IP," as an abbreviation for intellectual property, has > been around a few years. I think it began, and to a significant > extent remains, as a legal term. Lawyers who specialized in the > area got tired of being called patent lawyers, when they also had > other important responsibilities. The earliest use of IP I see > is from a 1984 seminar outline on Westlaw: Practising Law > Institute PLI Order No. B4-6688 September 18, 1984 Seventh Annual > Institute for Corporate Counsel: Acquisitions and Divestitures > ACQUISITION AND DIVESTITURE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY Evelyn M. Sommer: > > >>As used herein, intellectual property includes > 1. Patents > 2. Trademarks > 3. Copyrights > 4. Trade Secrets > 5. "Technology" = know how > > .... > > B. Role of Counsel for Acquiring Company > 1. Merger situation--little direct responsibility > 2. Acquisition situation-- > a). Letter of intent or preliminary agreement--require statement > that seller will transfer or license (royalty free?) all IP > necessary to continue the business. > b) Similar clause in Final Agreement in order to cover any > "forgotten" IP<< > > Note that "intellectual property" is carefully defined, > while "IP" is used in only one place in the outline, without > definition, even though lawyers frequently define obvious > abbreviations. I take this to mean that "IP" was an informal > term that the writer used inadvertently. > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of James A. Landau > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "C-level" > > > I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the > March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld. > > Page 4: "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub > intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying > the C-lvel title and a > fancy-schmancy office. With the arrival of software as a > service, the breadth > of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking." > > [clip] > > I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP" > > - James A. Landau > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 2 04:20:26 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:20:26 -0500 Subject: Anglo Sphere (1998); Attack Fax (1990); Black Cat (1961); Bounce (1980) Message-ID: (More political terms from Barry Popik, who somehow got dragged into this while enjoying himself in Panama.) ANGLOSPHERE (4 January 2000) (AMAZON.COM "search inside the book") The Asia-Pacific Profile (Pacific Studies (London, England).) by Bernard Eccleston Routledge; March 1998 1. on Page 47: "... 1877 to 1952. • Later becomes regional political, economic and educational cen- tre for all the Pacific Islands within the Anglo sphere of influence • Evidence of human settlement from 1290 loc suggests a hier- archical society particularly in the eastern, Polynesian ..." ATTACK FAX (18 February 1992) (FACTIVA) Fax Attack 269 words 22 April 1990 Richmond Times-Dispatch d-6 English (Copyright 1990) The fax machine is a wonderful contraption. But it can be used in not-so-wonderful ways. In addition to "junk fax," there is now the unsavory "attack fax" that the legal bullies at the American Civil Liberties Union evidently intend to use in their typical efforts to intimidate those who do not share their nihilistic perspective. BLACK CAT (1979 ref. to 1941, "off-the-record") (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Orphans Sing Their Thanks; Hands Clasped in Prayer Selections Explained Schedule Given All to Return Home By Alice Myers Winther Special Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Nov 16, 1961. p. 6 (1 page): PHOTO CAPTION: _Pat for Hodges Memento_ With United States Secretary of Commerce Luther H. Hodges directing, Gen. Park CHung-hee of SOuth Korea pats a black cat memento in the Secretary's office. Mr. Hodges said the cat, given to him by the San Francisco Press and Union League Club, has extraordinary powers. "You pat it three times, and everything you say is off the record," he told the Korean leader. General Park then patted the little black cat. BOUNCE (16 August 1984) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) The Connecticut Poll: From Political Attitudes to Social Inquiries By E.J. DIONNE Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 6, 1980. p. CN1 (1 page): And the Connecticut Poll's sponsors could take some solace from the fact that the real winner in both races, according to their survey, was "Undecided." This campaign, Mr. Ferree said, was marked by "an incredible amount of bounce, of volatility in people's preferences for Presidential candidates." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 2 04:59:29 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:59:29 -0500 Subject: Big League (1924); Blinked ( Message-ID: (Another political installment from Barry Popik.) BIG LEAGUE (1974 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) POST-SCRIPTS By GEORGE ROTHWELL BROWN. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 2, 1924. p. 1 (1 page): A political lietenant of that astute smoother and settler, Murray Crane, breaks into the big league with the announcement that Mr. Coolidge has picked his primary manager to manage his campaign. The Weekly Exposure; Congress Is Funniest When It's Serious Edited by Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1924. p. SM4 (1 page): The fellow may be all right personally and a good fellow, but that Big League Idea of Politics just kinder scares him. Women to Swell Congress Ranks?; Big Name Nationally Republicans in Race Reelection Sought By Josephine Ripley Staff Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 5, 1956. p. 3 (1 page): Four other Democratic women, out to break into big league politics, are rated high in ability and experience but are up against rugged political opposition. Mayor Tries 'Big League' Politics; Favorable Image Campaign Trail On Target By Harlan Trott Staff Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 18, 1962. p. 3 (1 page) Campaign corner By Robert Colby Nelson. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 2, 1968. p. B6 (1 page) Striking Out the Liberal-Moderates By NORMAN C. MILLER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 9, 1968. p. 6 (1 page): THey were grateful for Mr. Nixon's vital campaign help, but they looked first to Michigan's handsome Gov. George ROmney as the man who could win the White House. But Mr. Nixon went to work confidently, too. Though Mr. Romney was a seasoned hand in state politics, Mr. Nixon observed prophetically to a reporter that "it remains to be seen whether he can hit big league pitching." BLINK (7 December 1962) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) An Uncommon Quality Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1954. p. 10 (1 page): In the same way, the fact of an increase in unemployment is not to be blinked--but it is also not to be blown up out of proportion. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 2 05:37:28 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:37:28 -0500 Subject: Heavens to Betsy and X hands 'round! Message-ID: In _Tales of a Helicopter Pilot_ (2002), a reminiscence (available on-line) from (I think) the Korean War includes the interjection "Heavens to Betsy and four hands around". This looks like a dance call. Web search turns up an example of "Heavens to Betsy and six hands round" from 1903, actually given as a country dance call. N'archive has several instances from ca. 1897 of "Heaven[s] to Betsy and six hands [a]round" as a simple interjection. In all of these, I suspect the intent is a conscious rusticism or archaicism. "Heavens to Betsy" dates from 1878 or earlier. My default etymological speculation is that it is a modification (baby-talk or jocular malapropism) of "Heaven[s] bless me" (which was used as a general interjection from Shakespeare's time well into the 19th century, I believe). Why is the interjection sometimes augmented with "X hands round" as if it were a dance call? Is/was there really such a call? [I note as a possible irrelevance that some dances (Irish ones, apparently) have instructions like "sevens to the left" where "sevens" denotes a type of step.] -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 2 07:34:47 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:34:47 EST Subject: Commitment Ceremony (1990), Civil Union (1992), Pairage (1997) Message-ID: COMMITMENT CEREMONY, CIVIL UNION, PAIRAGE COMMITMENT CEREMONY--21,200 Google hits, 2,330 Google Groups hits CIVIL UNION--59,300 Google hits, 8,880 Google Groups hits CIVIL UNIONS--131,000 Google hits, 21,600 Google Groups hits PAIRAGE--699 Google hits, 70 Google Groups hits "Commitment ceremony" and "civil union" are both not in the OED. They don't appear to show up on Google Groups before the 1990s. People have been discussing "gay marriage" with these terms every day. Get 'em defined. "Pairage" appears not to have caught on as a replacement of the word "marriage." (GOOGLE GROUPS) A Column on Marital Benefits for Lesbians and Gays ... But there are ways do doing so without diluting traditional concepts of marriage. Certainly, those religious groups that wish can offer commitment ceremonies. ... soc.motss - Sep 26, 1990 by Kevin P. Malloy - View Thread (3 articles) Gay Marriage in Episcopal Church ... Regas, the couple, and the church committee intended that the commitment ceremony be quiet, dignified, and in keeping with other church liturgical events. ... soc.religion.christian - Feb 11, 1992 by Louie Crew - View Thread (2 articles) Re: There is hope in the world ... Well, marriage is not the correct word or concept; but there is indeed a project of a proposition of law for a so-called "civil union" contract that would ... soc.motss - Mar 12, 1992 by Frederic Maffray - View Thread (3 articles) Re: Worthless marriages and Steven Fordyce ... Whenever I refer to "marriage" in this context, please assume I mean "legally valid civil union." I'm not interested in debating religious ceremonies or ... alt.rush-limbaugh - Mar 8, 1994 by Bruce Garrett - View Thread (47 articles) GAY MARRIAGE STORIES ... Legislation to create civil-union contracts for same-sex couples was recently introduced nationally by Worker's Party Deputy Marta Suplicy, Mott said. ... bit.listserv.gaynet - Apr 28, 1995 by Rex Wockner - View Thread (1 article) Re: is shawn gay? On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:27:23 GMT, taskmistress at annex.com (Miss Sexual promiscuity is unhealthy and anal sodomy is unhealthy, regardless of the pairage or sex ... rec.sport.pro-wrestling - Apr 22, 1997 by XlAtlbear - View Thread (88 articles) Re: Any same-sex marriage opposition? ... Right! They could call it "pairage" or something. What the hell...they pretend to have sex, they can pretend be married. -- Pretend to have sex? ... talk.atheism - Jun 8, 1997 by Bryce Hudnall - View Thread (1289 articles) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 2 17:41:33 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:41:33 -0500 Subject: "Deer in the headlights" (1991) Message-ID: The worst thing, she adds, is to react "like a deer in the headlights--too stunned to respond or survive." --WALL STREET JOURNAL, 2 March 2004, pg. D1, col. 1. DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS--19,500 Google hits, 12,400 Google Groups hits I've heard this for several years, but I hadn't pinned a date on it. I remember that Johnny Carson described scared guests like this. I don't know if he coined it. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Smart legal abusers Write an ending for this story. She knows she's in for it now, but can't seem to get herself moving from fear. Like the deer in your headlights, she is frozen. ... soc.men - Jul 25, 1991 by Jack Mcbryde - View Thread (19 articles) Re: a few more Toronto faces ... camera. B{) Sort of like the "deer in the headlights" effect, isn't it? Brian -- Brian A. Jarvis, Rm. 4026, Sidney Smith Hall, Dept. ... soc.motss - Jul 12, 1991 by Brian Jarvis - View Thread (5 articles) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Mar 2 18:16:31 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:16:31 -0600 Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal (death of Elaine Shepard) Message-ID: This is just one small piece of the "whole nine yards" puzzle. --- In an earlier message, Stephen Goranson mentioned trying unsuccessfully to contact Elaine Shepard concerning the use of "the whole nine yards" in her book _Doom Pussy_. (Danang Officers' Open Mess + a military patch depicting a cat eating an airplane worn by some American bomber pilots). The website http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/411150.html mentions that Ms. Shepard passed away in Sept. 1988. The relevant passage is: >The earliest known reference to the phrase in print is as recent as >1967 in 'The Doom Pussy', a novel about the Vietnam War by Elaine >Shepard. In that context the phrase refers to the difficulties a >character has with unentangling himself from an unwanted marriage. >It isn't clear if the author coined the phrase herself, although the >manner of its use in the story would suggest not. Ms. Shepard died >in September 1998, so perhaps we will never know. Gerald Cohen From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Mar 2 22:52:13 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:52:13 -0800 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" Message-ID: -- Doug Wilson wrote: >But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is >it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" >or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? >Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts >verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? Doesn't have to be a subordinate clause. It could be short for "Ich kann nichts verstehen." Not uncommon in colloquial speech (altho 'kann' would normally be spoken) >Or is it pidgin- German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + >"forstay" ("understand")? Beverly Flanigan wrote: >The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no >subject, in all pidgins. Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc. The >German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a >nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German > easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs. Already explained the lack of subject and word order. [st] for standard German [St] is the rule in some dialects, as is the dropping of final [n] on infinitives. Schwa dropping is also very common in colloquial speech. Really, this sounds to me more like an an intended attempt by Americans to mock German. Fritz Juengling From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Mar 2 22:57:10 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:57:10 -0500 Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 02:52 PM 3/2/2004 -0800, you wrote: >-- Doug Wilson wrote: > >But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is > >it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing" > >or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")? > >Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts > >verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"? > >Doesn't have to be a subordinate clause. It could be short for "Ich kann >nichts verstehen." Not uncommon in colloquial speech (altho 'kann' would >normally be spoken) > > >Or is it pidgin- German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") + > >"forstay" ("understand")? >Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no > >subject, in all pidgins. Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc. The > >German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a > >nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German > > easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs. > >Already explained the lack of subject and word order. [st] for standard >German [St] is the rule in some dialects, as is the dropping of final [n] >on infinitives. Schwa dropping is also very common in colloquial speech. > >Really, this sounds to me more like an an intended attempt by Americans to >mock German. >Fritz Juengling Yes, I agree, though a short-term visitor to Germany might do the same, without mocking. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Mar 2 23:22:15 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:22:15 -0800 Subject: stoopnagle Message-ID: I didn't know anyone else knew this word. My mom used it all the time, but I don't know where she got it. I assumed it was from the German WW2 general (I think that was his rank) Karl von Stu"lpnagel, who bungled one of the plots and was given 'Hitler's leave.' I like your explanation better, tho. Fritz Juengling >>> SClements at NEO.RR.COM 02/29/04 05:06PM >>> My dad always called someone this in the 1950's when they acted in a dumb way. This term must have come from the radio show "Colonel Stoopnagle and Budd" from 1930's. Has any publication picked up on the slang sense of the term--stoopnagle=stupid person? Sam Clements From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Mar 3 02:16:19 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:16:19 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla Message-ID: This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways. He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims, meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like movement. I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in dictionaries. Benjamin Barrett From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Mar 3 03:19:08 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:19:08 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: In Vancouver BC, I often hear 'that's just WRONG' as a common phrase to express surprise or irony. I wonder whether some of these common expressions originate from hit movies or TV shows. The above has an SNL flavour to it (...perhaps this final comment shows my age more than my observation skills?) Cheers - Vida. Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have. Rabbi Hyman Schachtel -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Wrong and Holla This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways. He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims, meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like movement. I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in dictionaries. Benjamin Barrett From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 03:43:52 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:43:52 -0500 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: At 6:16 PM -0800 3/2/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways. > >He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims, >meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. > >Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like >movement. > >I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in >dictionaries. > The former doesn't seem that exotic to me; "right" and "wrong" to mean 'fair'/'unfair' (as in the grading of papers) strikes me as within familiar usage. The latter I'm not familiar with (in the given sense). Larry Horn From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 3 04:03:29 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:03:29 -0500 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims, >>meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. >> >>Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like >>movement. >> >>I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in >>dictionaries. >The former doesn't seem that exotic to me; "right" and "wrong" to >mean 'fair'/'unfair' (as in the grading of papers) strikes me as >within familiar usage. The latter I'm not familiar with (in the >given sense). I agree with Larry Horn about "wrong". In the emphatic use which I imagine here, more conservative speakers might say "This is [just] not right" or so, but I think "wrong" is reasonable too. "Holla" is "holler" (sometimes also "hollow") meaning "yell". I don't recognize the use for a gesture, but (e.g.) at urbandictionary.com there are numerous entries indicating "holla" is used something like "talk"/"speak" sometimes. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 3 06:28:59 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 01:28:59 EST Subject: Wrong; "Street Sweeper" slang irony Message-ID: WRONG In a message dated 3/2/2004 10:19:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET writes: > In Vancouver BC, I often hear 'that's just WRONG' as a common phrase to > express surprise or irony. > > I wonder whether some of these common expressions originate from hit movies > or TV shows At least once a week (4 programs), DAILY SHOW host Jon Stewart will look at a ridiculous news story (the Janet Jackson breast incident, for example) and tell the audience: "That's just wrong." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- STREET SWEEPER From the NEW YORK SUN, 2 March 2004, letters, pg. 9, col. 4: With regard to Errol Louis's column on cab-driver safety, there has not been a rash of livery muggings ("The Outer-Borough Taxi Crisis," Opinion, February 17, 2004). The incidents that Mr. Louis described were all perpetrated against drivers who were doing street hails, or as we refer to them, "street sweepers." The drivers who strictly adhere to the law and perform only radio-dispatched calls are never the target of these incidents. (...) Eugene Pero President, Livery Owners Coalition of New York What's sadly ironic here is that drivers who do street hails are called "street sweepers," and they experience violence from guns that are also known as "street sweepers." "Street sweeper" is not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG, in any definition. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Homicide Study: Victorian Law Report Vol 40 Appendix 6 ... handguns in criminal hands) Similar moves to target semi-auto rifles (falsely called assault rifles) shotguns (falsely called street-sweepers) bolt-action ... talk.politics.guns - Feb 12, 1992 by Greg Booth - View Thread (29 articles) Re: Northern VA Mall Bans Conceal Carry ... I yield on the Ak and Rem. Probably worse that any of them is those so- called street sweepers. I saw one fired once. They are something else. ... talk.politics.guns - Dec 23, 1996 by Jack Bowen - View Thread (42 articles) Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen on gun control ... Assault weapons and these so-called street sweepers and that - I think that's crazy. I don't think that they should be there at all. ... talk.politics.guns - Dec 19, 1993 by karl at misty.anasazi.com - View Thread (2 articles) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 3 07:57:57 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:57:57 EST Subject: Sundae (1900, 1903); "I see," said the blind man Message-ID: SUNDAE I re-checked "sundae" using Newspaperarchive.com...The "1889" MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT is 100 years off. You just have to remember these errors...I had posted the "chop suey sundae" from 1906. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ottumwa Daily Courier - 8/5/1903 ...of soda from the fine stream and some ICE CREAM ..when combined may form% either one7.....soda clerks; others are due to some popular book or fashion still -others come from -the.....comes in, he must say, "Will you have a SUNDAE or a frozen or some suggestion of a.....or the word means. It is variously spelled SUNDAE, sundea and sundee and is. said by.. Pg. 7, col. 1: _How They Originate._ Sundaes are made and eaten but no one knows who was their inventor or what the word means. It is variously spelled sundae, sundea and sundee and is said by some to mean "mixed" and to have originated in Chicago. Other experts deny this. A breezy, stimulating drink which contains malted milk is obtainable. "Navaro" is the name for another package of carbonic acid gas done ip in flavored water and cream. St. Julian punch, egg agnostura, grape cobbler, orange spray, coffee frappe, ambrosia flipp, chocolate bousha (which is another way of saying frappe), Queen Bees, (a fruit lemonade), LaComa, egg a la mode, New York beauty, Satan's delight, Delmonico dipp, Scotch rose, fautaema, Manhattan cream, creora puff, rospho royal, Whiterock lemonade (which is foundedon lithia water), these are selections from the list of "new" drinks. Arizona Republican - 5/18/1904 ...ICE. Grape Fruit phosphate, Strawberry ICE CREAM, Chop Suey SUNDAE. Waihlnilon and Flnt.....the finest publication of a magazine or book nature ever produced in. an Arizona.....every detail. Our specials today: Vanilla ICE CREAM. Pineapple.. Phoenix, Arizona Wednesday, May 18, 1904 605 k Pg. 5, col. 1 ad: Out specials today: Vanilla ice cream, Pineapple Ice, Grape Fruit Phosphate, Strawberry Ice Cream, Chop Suey Sundae. Grand Rapids Tribune - 4/19/1902 ...the Methodist church. ICE CREAM soda, ICE CREAM SUNDAES, soda water and PurdyV. root.....enjoyable and profitable winter. The finest ICE CREAM in the land at the candy kitchen.....Free Press: JW. Cameron. president of the CREAM. City Sash and Door company, left for.. Grand Rapids, Wisconsin Saturday, April 19, 1902 819 k Arizona Republican - 8/11/1900 ...to afent of railway at Btsbeej For the bett ICE CREAM go to Rlnetiart't. 208-11 West.....r.hilni rrrnmy sweet and phosphates sour, SUNDAES and but not be aw'are that drinks.. Phoenix, Arizona Saturday, August 11, 1900 686 k Pg. 5, col. 4: He may notice that there are sodas plain and sodas creamy, phosphates sweet and phosphates sour, sundaes and lemonades, but not be aware that drinks which cheer to a greater extent than these are obtainable there. Mansfield News - 8/29/1902 ...to 'nine-tenths that are dispensed. The ICE CREAM '.we. make out of pure CREAM. We.....root beer, etc., are the choICEst. Our SUNDAES and Dopes are made out of the finest.....chocolates, fruits and CREAM. 5 cents buys Ashbrook's soda.. Mansfield, Ohio Friday, August 29, 1902 765 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "I SEE," SAID THE BLIND MAN (continued) Again, PUCK probably has some variations of this, but we don't have that yet from APS Online. Literature Online is down at NYU. http://info.utas.edu.au/docs/flonta/DP,2,1,96/STUDY_OF_PROVERBS.html Wellerisms in which an animal speaks are usually allusions to fables, although I am not sure that there is one underlying "'What a dust I raise,' said the fly as it sat on the wheel". Wellerisms in which a man or woman speaks may be actual remarks that caught popular fancy and became traditional: "'That I would fain see,' said blind Hugh", which was current in the sixteenth century, may be such a quotation, for there was then a famous wit called Blind Hugh. A Swedish scholar has conjectured that generic names replaced specific names when the appropriateness of the specific names was forgotten. Thus we may have, although he does not cite this example, "'I see' said the blind man" and with a further development involving a pun, "'I see,' said the blind man and picked up his hammer and saw". From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Mar 3 12:12:35 2004 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 06:12:35 -0600 Subject: stoopnagle Message-ID: Has it been mentioned... I has a vague childhood memory of a Col. Stoopnagle comic strip. Pompous bumbler, I think. ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:22 PM Subject: Re: stoopnagle > I didn't know anyone else knew this word. My mom used it all the time, but I don't know where she got it. I assumed it was from the German WW2 general (snip) From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Mar 3 12:56:50 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:56:50 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects Message-ID: Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not totally scientific: http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm Orin Hargraves (49% yankee) From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 3 14:22:18 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 06:22:18 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: "This is wrong", "...so wrong", and "...sick and wrong" - common expressions of frustration, disgust, unfairness, etc. in these parts. --- Benjamin Barrett wrote: > This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in > interesting ways. > > He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This > is wrong," he proclaims, > meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. > > Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out > in a rapper-like > movement. > > I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla > doesn't seem to be recorded in > dictionaries. > > Benjamin Barrett ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 16:50:13 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:50:13 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: <4040D148@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not >totally scientific: > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > >Orin Hargraves >(49% yankee) I'm skeptical. Larry Horn ("54% dixie"-- grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin, and New England) From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 3 17:08:09 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0700 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 3 17:22:55 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:22:55 -0600 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: <4040D148@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not >totally scientific: > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > >Orin Hargraves >(49% yankee) 60% Dixie: 3 months (from birth to 3 mo) in Oak Ridge, TN, then Cleveland (9 years), north of Boston (9 years), Philadelphia (college), Milwaukee (2 years), Chicago (4 years), South Dakota (1 year), and Chicago (14+ years). Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics (I would have liked a none-of-the above choice for some of them. B) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 3 17:28:49 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:28:49 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Too bad the surveyors didn't have the survey-takers note before taking the survey what they thought the results would be. Then it might be more than just a fun little exercise. Grant From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 17:36:19 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:36:19 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:22 AM -0600 3/3/04, Barbara Need wrote: >>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based >>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, >>even if not >>totally scientific: >> >>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm >> >>Orin Hargraves >>(49% yankee) > >60% Dixie: 3 months (from birth to 3 mo) in Oak Ridge, TN, then >Cleveland (9 years), north of Boston (9 years), Philadelphia >(college), Milwaukee (2 years), Chicago (4 years), South Dakota (1 >year), and Chicago (14+ years). > >Barbara Need >UChicago--Linguistics > >(I would have liked a none-of-the above choice for some of them. B) I actually left some blank--selecting any of the choices would have been a lie. It's quite poorly designed, but then it was designed by computer scientists, evidently, not by dialectologists. Larry Horn, the born-again Southerner From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 3 17:28:23 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:50 AM 3/3/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: >>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based >>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even >>if not >>totally scientific: >> >>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm >> >>Orin Hargraves >>(49% yankee) > >I'm skeptical. >Larry Horn >("54% dixie"-- >grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin, >and New England) Yes, it's pretty simplistic, as if the whole country speaks either New England or Deep South! The plural 'you' question doesn't even include "you guys" or just plain "you." And is pron. of "pajamas" a regional issue or a style/register one? The Harvard survey at least produced maps of variant forms; this spinoff is just black or white (but doesn't account for blacks at all). From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Wed Mar 3 17:47:14 2004 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:47:14 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <200403030216.VAA02813@adamant.cnchost.com> Message-ID: I picked up "wrong" from co-workers in Northern California about six years ago. Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final word in the sentence: "This is _wrong_." It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust. Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious. Gwyn Alcock Redlands, California -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Wrong and Holla This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways. He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims, meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 3 17:54:22 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:54:22 -0800 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects Message-ID: Well, I'm only 53% dixie altho the time I have spent in Dixie could be measured in hours (and that includes several trips to El Paso, Texas. One problem with the test is that there are several questions for which I would choose none of the above, but that was not an option. For example, I had never called the long road next to a freeway anything (It never occured to me that it should be called anything), nor had I ever heard anyone call it anything until I lived in Minnesota. (It does seem to me that the concept seemed more important to Minnesotans than Oregonians--there isn't always a long road next to the freeways here. Probably too many trees and rivers here) Fritz Juengling >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 03/03/04 08:50AM >>> At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not >totally scientific: > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > >Orin Hargraves >(49% yankee) I'm skeptical. Larry Horn ("54% dixie"-- grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin, and New England) From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 3 17:49:23 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:49:23 -0700 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Mar 3 17:43:47 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:43:47 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with conviction that New Paltz is downstate. This is not simply north/south perspective. People from Rochester don't consider Elmira to be downstate. Even though it is south of Rochester, it is still upstate New York. New York has its greatest land mass north of Pennsylvania, an area that the inhabitants consider upstate. There is a southern panhandle, and upstaters call anything in that panhandle, i.e., anything south of the Catskills, to be downstate. Metropolitan New Yorkers seem to consider anything north of the Tappan Zee Bridge to be upstate. (As anything beyond New Jersey is "the West.") I wonder whether the citizens of New Paltz consider themselves upstate or downstate. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Mar 3 18:12:55 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:12:55 +0000 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, March 3, 2004 12:43 pm -0500 Duane Campbell wrote: > > With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to > this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's > Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with > conviction that New Paltz is downstate. (etc.) You might want to check the ADS-L archives, as this topic has come up at least twice before. Lynne, Upstate native Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 18:46:52 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <20040303.130212.-102915.0.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Duane Campbell said: >With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to >this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's >Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with >conviction that New Paltz is downstate. And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's south of Albany, is still upstate to me. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Mar 3 19:26:21 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:26:21 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: Yes, do consult the archives. I remember responding to this issue some time ago. I would be interested in how these terms are used in states with considerably greater n/s orientation as apposed to e/w--e.g. California, Idaho, Alabama, Florida, etc. What do Canadians do--up province? Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Wed Mar 3 19:26:41 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:26:41 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: It works similarly in Illinois, where the distinction is between Chicago and downstate. Rockford is downstate. Herb Duane Campbell said: >With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to >this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's >Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with >conviction that New Paltz is downstate. And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's south of Albany, is still upstate to me. -- ======================================================================= ====== Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU Wed Mar 3 19:56:22 2004 From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:56:22 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <200403031926.ARG65386@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 02:26 PM 3/3/2004, you wrote: >It works similarly in Illinois, where the distinction is between Chicago >and downstate. Rockford is downstate. Speaking as a former denizen of Southern Illinois I can attest that Joliet is downstate. Geoff From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 19:57:39 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:57:39 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:46 PM -0500 3/3/04, Alice Faber wrote: >Duane Campbell said: >>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to >>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's >>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with >>conviction that New Paltz is downstate. > >And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most >definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But >my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's >south of Albany, is still upstate to me. > And for some native New Yorkers [= native-NYCers], Yonkers is upstate. I don't think it works like Chicagoans w.r.t. Rockford, though--Long Island is never "upstate", it's just the tertium datur: the City, Upstate, the Island. Then there's the finer-grained definition, whereby the City = Manhattan, leaving the outer boroughs unclassified. Larry Horn (grade school in the City, high school on the Island, college Upstate) From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Mar 3 20:28:45 2004 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:28:45 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: >Yonkers is >upstate. It isn't for folks who liver there or nearby. Indeed, I have the impression that people who commute to NYC do not consider themselves "upstate" at least from the end of MetroNorth RR commutation runs. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 20:41:23 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:41:23 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 1:46 PM -0500 3/3/04, Alice Faber wrote: >>Duane Campbell said: >>>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to >>>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's >>>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with >>>conviction that New Paltz is downstate. >> >>And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most >>definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But >>my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's >>south of Albany, is still upstate to me. >> >And for some native New Yorkers [= native-NYCers], Yonkers is >upstate. I don't think it works like Chicagoans w.r.t. Rockford, >though--Long Island is never "upstate", it's just the tertium datur: >the City, Upstate, the Island. Then there's the finer-grained >definition, whereby the City = Manhattan, leaving the outer boroughs >unclassified. Is there a noun for where the "Bridge and Tunnel people" live? For me, that phrase refers to the denizens of the outer boroughs, and, possibly, also Hoboken. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 3 20:42:40 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:42:40 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <200403030947.1aYAsY5pL3NZFkD0@kite> Message-ID: >...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a >situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust. >Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious. I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many science fiction fans. A human is making love to an alien, another human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." Rima From edlawson at NETSYNC.NET Wed Mar 3 20:49:16 2004 From: edlawson at NETSYNC.NET (Ed Lawson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:49:16 -0500 Subject: American Name Society/San Francisco Jan 2005 Message-ID: American Name Society with the Linguistic Society of America CALL FOR PAPERS, PROGRAM SUGGESTIONS, AND PARTICIPANTS First Call: February 15, 2004 for San Francisco, January 6-9, 2005 San Francisco 2005. The American Name Society invites abstracts for papers and program suggestions for ANS sessions to be held in conjunction with the Linguistic Society of America, the American Dialect Society, and other organizations in San Francisco, 6-9 January 2005. The preferred mode of transmission of abstracts or proposals is by email or e-mail attachment sent to: edlawson at netsync.net Abstracts sent by surface mail are acceptable and should be addressed to: Edwin D. Lawson 23 Westerly Drive Fredonia NY 14063 The meetings will take place at the Hyatt Regency Embarcadero. The rates for a single/ double room are $115.00. Abstracts on any area of onomastics are appropriate. Abstracts of 150-200 words should be sent as soon as convenient but not later than 1 September 2004. Proposals for panel discussions, nominations for distinguished or speakers, or other types of proposal are due by August 1. Eligibility. Membership in the American Name Society is a requirement. There is also an ANS registration fee (to cover items not covered by LSA, projector use, ANS printed programs, badges, etc.). The charge in Boston was $16. There is a registration fee due the Linguistic Society of America (in addition to getting greatly reduced hotel rates, LSA offers us many special lectures and the book exhibit). This year the regular fee was $70 with other rates for students/retirees and for just one day. Sessions of the American Dialect Society and other allied groups are also open to ANS members. If a paper is accepted for ANS, the abstract will be published in the LSA 180-page Meeting Handbook as well as the ANS program. Further information on registration and on the hotel is to be available in May. All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously and senders will be notified by 15 September, 2004 or as soon as possible after that date. Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and the 2005 LSA meeting in San Francisco can be obtained from the LSA homepage, www.lsadc.org *********************************** ANS/LSA San Francisco, January 2005 Preliminary Indication of Interest Your completion of this form at this time will help us plan the meeting. Please include: Author's name: Author's affiliation: Address: Telephone no.: Fax no. E-mail address Title of paper (or topic): Proposal Suggestion Time requested: 20 minutes + 10 minutes discussion NO DISCUSSANT. Or 20 minutes + 3 minutes DISCUSSANT + 7 minutes discussion Special equipment (overhead projector, slide projector, etc.). Special scheduling requests: Details about membership in the American Name Society are at: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/ -- ______ Edwin D. Lawson / | Professor Emeritus of Psychology | | State University of New York, Fredonia / | Fredonia, NY 14063-1605 USA __________/ | / | /+Buffalo | EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu |*FREDONIA | Telephone: (716) 673-1921 |_________________ | \_ | \ | '-| __ ,---| /___/-- / See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/ From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM Wed Mar 3 20:52:23 2004 From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:52:23 -0700 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <200403031343116.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a >>situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust. >>Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious. > > > I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many > science fiction fans. A human is making love to an alien, another > human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." > > Rima > > ...and a line from a Kris Kristofferson song, around 1973 (describing a hangover): "Like my thick ol' tongue was lickin' somethin' sick and wrong" -- Steve Clason Boulder, Colorado, USA From panton at CYC.COM Wed Mar 3 21:15:47 2004 From: panton at CYC.COM (Kathy Panton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:15:47 -0600 Subject: Heavens to Betsy and X hands 'round! In-Reply-To: <200403030501.i2351Hcf018809@moon.cyc.com> Message-ID: >From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >Why is the interjection sometimes augmented with "X hands round" as if it >were a dance call? Is/was there really such a call? > > > Doug, "X hands round" is definitely used in Scottish Country Dance calling (and perhaps in Irish, English, and contra dancing as well). An "X hands round" call means that a set of dancers forms a circle, with hands joined, and does a sort of sideways slipstep move in one direction, and then usually back again after a few bars. (Yikes; I can't remember whether the default starting direction is clockwise or counterclockwise!) "4 hands round" is 2 dancers; "6 hands round" is 3 dancers; and so on. Why "X hands round" would be appended to "Heavens to Betsy", I haven't a clue. Scottish Country Dancing has been common in the U.S. since well before the Korean War. Kathy =========================================== Kathy Panton Cycorp panton at cyc.com 512-342-4009 =========================================== From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Mar 3 21:25:41 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:25:41 EST Subject: Val-girl [sic] "like" Message-ID: "Val-girl 'like' is a misnomer for a usage that has been found everywhere in the USA for over a generation. Now, why anyone would want to, uhm, "curb" its use (much less think that such an effort is anything but, oh, totally futile) is, well, soooo another matter. In a message dated 2/5/04 11:49:38 PM, grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET writes: > The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" linguistic > novelty.  The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article on the > generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some efforts to curb > that use.  My own efforts are described at > http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf. > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Mar 3 21:43:13 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:43:13 -0500 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a >>situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust. >>Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious. > >I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many >science fiction fans. A human is making love to an alien, another >human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." > >Rima ~~~~~~~~~ Then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "Eating People is Wrong!" (Donald sings) I won't eat people.... I won't eat people.... Eating people is wrong. A. Murie From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 3 21:55:41 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:55:41 -0800 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: <200403030501.1aYw032MX3NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this? I got through to chuckchamblee.com and then to chuckchamblee.com/dom but could get no further. And why would this be attached to a racing car site? I am confused... Rima From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU Wed Mar 3 21:55:34 2004 From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:55:34 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage Message-ID: Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. In case anyone wanted to know, Joshua Nimocks From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Mar 3 22:43:00 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:43:00 -0800 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Joshua, Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Joshua Nimocks Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. In case anyone wanted to know, Joshua Nimocks From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU Wed Mar 3 22:50:31 2004 From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:50:31 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage In-Reply-To: <200403032242.i23AS21T028181@anderson.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or clan.' -Joshua Nimocks On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Vida J Morkunas > Subject: Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still > in usage > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Joshua, > > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch > > Vida. > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of > Joshua Nimocks > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in > usage > > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. > > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. > > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. > > In case anyone wanted to know, > Joshua Nimocks > From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Wed Mar 3 22:59:10 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:59:10 -0600 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language stillin usage Message-ID: We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities. sally donlon Joshua Nimocks wrote: > I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or > clan.' > > -Joshua Nimocks > > On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Vida J Morkunas > > Subject: Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still > > in usage > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Joshua, > > > > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch > > > > Vida. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of > > Joshua Nimocks > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in > > usage > > > > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of > > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. > > > > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED > > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. > > > > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to > > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. > > > > In case anyone wanted to know, > > Joshua Nimocks > > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 23:09:28 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:09:28 -0500 Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948) In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this? > > (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall, > Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948 > "I see," said the blind man -- This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism. "Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew. John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533) "We'll say nothing, but we'll see," as blind Pete said to his dog. Fraser's Magazine, vol. 6 (1832) "I'd like to see you," as the blind man said to the policeman when he told him he would take him to the station house if he did not move on. Yankee Notions, vol. 10 (1848) "Let me see," said the blind man. Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend (1864) Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Wed Mar 3 23:32:56 2004 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:32:56 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage Message-ID: All right, keen-eyed Josh, you have me at a disadvantage, since I haven't a copy of the OED at hand. But isn't your 601 evidence for "town" from "Aethelbert's Laws"? If so, haven't you overlooked the closed lexical categories? Surely you'll find the whole range of English prepositions, one or more conjunctions ("and," "[yogh]if"), the "definite article" or demonstrative adjective "[thorn]e," and other such words in the same text. All of the earlier texts are interlinear glosses, I think, so constitute a different sort of evidence, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that they are indeed the first written "uses" of the words in question -- does none of the glosses include a preposition? It would be odd if none did. I would look at OED entries for prepositions and conjunctions before asserting that some noun or other is the oldest written word. Nouns are so full of themselves; sorry, but I just feel that it's my responsibility to stand up for the little words. From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 23:49:01 2004 From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:49:01 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <20040303202934.2A195AFA8F@alvin.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: Both are true. To people from NYC anything north of the Bronx is "upstate", but as a native Yonkersian (?) I can attest that no one I knew from home considered our fair city to be part of that northern region - uh, area. I have a friend from Yonkers who tells people she is from "south eastern New York State" to be clear that she is neither from the city nor upstate. An acquaintance from Plattsburgh always said he was from "north eastern New York State" so as to be clear that he wasn't from Westchester. Larissa ++>Yonkers is ++>upstate. ++ ++It isn't for folks who liver there or nearby. Indeed, I have the ++impression that people who commute to NYC do not consider themselves ++"upstate" at least from the end of MetroNorth RR commutation runs. ++ ++Regards, ++David From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 3 23:56:25 2004 From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:56:25 -0500 Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people In-Reply-To: <20040303204127.E544AAFA8F@alvin.haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: I'd use the noun New Jersey. I guess this excludes LI. From my current perspective west of the Hudson. But I've never thought of outer boroughers as part of the bridge and tunnel crowd. Larissa ++Is there a noun for where the "Bridge and Tunnel people" live? For ++me, that phrase refers to the denizens of the outer boroughs, and, ++possibly, also Hoboken. From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU Thu Mar 4 00:10:19 2004 From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:10:19 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage Message-ID: Re: Michael Adams. Alright, the email server at Duke is really messed up, so I'm responding to what I see for the discussion list at the website. Anyways... I guess the key qualifier to my assertion here is "still in usage" I checked "and", "the", and "that." "and" first appears c700 in the Epinal Glossary. "the" first appears c700 in the Epinal Glossary, in plural form "that" first appears c825 in the Vespasian Psalter. Weren't Aethelbert's Laws composed in Kent? Maybe in that case, the Kentish dialectal counterparts for the conjunction, definite article, demonstrative adjective, etc. were quite different from the West Saxon ones. I really know nothing about Old English, so this is a mere guess. But if I'm right then the prepositions, articles, etc. in Aethelbert's Laws might have fallen out of usage long, long ago, making them irrelevant to the OED, to be replaced by the West Saxon ones. Feel free to say otherwise and put me in my place... -Joshua Nimocks From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Mar 4 00:30:19 2004 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:30:19 -0800 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I searched the archives for "upstate" in the subject line and found only today's discussion. Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had heard "upstate" only in connection with NY. So there's always a first time, but I've never heard the term used in connection with any western state, and I assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the Mississippi. To my knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and Southern CA. To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to involve a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the state. Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of its two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context for "upstate" or "downstate." I don't know enough about Idaho to say whether the terms are or or not used, but the only word I've ever heard for any specific part of the state is "the panhandle" (i.e., the narrow part that barely keeps Washington and Montana from bumping into each other). Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, March 3, 2004 2:26 PM -0500 Barnhart wrote: > Yes, do consult the archives. I remember responding to this issue some > time ago. I would be interested in how these terms are used in states > with considerably greater n/s orientation as apposed to e/w--e.g. > California, Idaho, Alabama, Florida, etc. What do Canadians do--up > province? > > Regards, > David Barnhart > > barnhart at highlands.com ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 4 02:09:18 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:09:18 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language stillin usage In-Reply-To: <4046633E.3E38DFE2@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: At 4:59 PM -0600 3/3/04, Sally Donlon wrote: >We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities. > >sally donlon > e.g. Chicago larry horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 4 02:16:56 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:16:56 -0500 Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:56 PM -0500 3/3/04, Larissa H. Chen wrote: >I'd use the noun New Jersey. I guess this excludes LI. From my current >perspective west of the Hudson. > >But I've never thought of outer boroughers as part of the bridge >and tunnel crowd. > >Larissa > I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions about the other outer boroughs. I know, you'd usually get to S.I. from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit. (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry crowd?) The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but they're not suburban enough to qualify. I'm not sure about Queens. larry horn From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 02:23:36 2004 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:23:36 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage Message-ID: No, the prepositions aren't merely Kentish -- they're in the 601 quotes (I've checked since I last wrote). The problem with antedating in the OED is that the OED has to present the word in the first quotation -- this is usually true, even in the case of the functional words, but not always -- sometimes you have to recover the first citations for functional words in quotations for other words, you know, the nouns :-). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 03:02:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:02:54 -0500 Subject: Cushion Meat (1996) Message-ID: CUSHION MEAT (Brought to you by Barry Popik, just let out of parking tickets for the day) Those who prefer turf to surf should start with the "cushion meat" ($7), thin cutlets of pork shoulder treated with a peppery citrus marinade. --NEW YORK SUN, 3 March 2004, pg. 21, col. 2 (This article is also on FACTIVA) CUSHION MEAT--398 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits "Cushion meat" is not in the OED. A Google search for "cushion meat" + "dictionary" turns up zero hits. The food dictionary competition (what there is of it) just isn't very good. Factiva has 2374 hits, but going back only to 1996. Most of the articles are titled "ODJ USDA Meat Prices." (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: bill at pipping.com (bill at pipping.com) Subject: Re: Cushion meat Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue Date: 2003-08-16 07:07:42 PST On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:28:39 -0500, Steve Wertz wrote: >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:19:36 -0700, Bill > wrote: > >> >> Howdy all. So, what is cushion meat and how can I use it? >> >> Was going through the meat section and there was this 12 pound vac pac >>of Farmer John boneless cushion meat for 97 cents a pound. Is it useful >>for Q or is it dog food? > >The cushion refers to a specific muscle in a front leg of swine from >what I remember. It can be smoked if there's some fat left on it. >Otherwise it can be used for anything that calls for boneless pork. > >I haven't seen anything specifically labelled that in quite a while. > >-sw I was in Smart & Final yesterday buying some lump, and saw the same thing in there. I Googled it, and found the same thing you said. I might try one. -- Bill (FACTIVA) etc. Meatout Ham slicing 404 words 13 March 1996 Peoria Journal Star All C1 English (Copyright 1996) Meatout Break out the tofu: next Wednesday is the 12th annual Great American Meatout, sponsored by the Farm Animal Reform Movement (FARM). Organizers of the project, which is modeled after the Great American Smokeout, are encouraging Americans to "kick the meat habit, at least for a day." "Numerous consumer, environmental and animal protection groups, as well as public officials, health providers, clergy, educators, writers, entertainers and others believe that consumers are entitled to a one-day response to the relentless barrage of self-serving promotional messages from the meat industry," reads a FARM press release. Ham slicing Easter is approaching, which means it's time for some people to start honing their ham-carving technique. The Pork Information Bureau offers these instructions for slicing a bone-in ham: *For a whole ham: Place the ham on a cutting board with the shank -- or lower leg -- to the carver's right. Steady the ham with a fork and cut a few slices from the thin side of the leg. This provides a base to set the ham as you continue to carve. Place the ham on the side where you've removed slices. Make perpendicular slices to the leg bone. To loosen the slices, cut along the leg bone with the knife, removing each slice with the fork. *For the shank half of a ham: Position the ham with the shank end to the carver's left, with the thicker piece of meat -- the "cushion" meat -- on top. Using a fork to steady the ham, cut along the top of the bone to loosen the boneless cushion meat. Place the cushion meat carved-side down on the cutting board and cut in perpendicular slices. Transfer slices to a serving platter. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- NO REAL REASON FOR LIVING (PART A MILLION OR SO) (continued, of course) (NEXIS) Copyright 2004 National Broadcasting Co. Inc. NBC News Transcripts SHOW: Today (7:00 AM ET) - NBC February 26, 2004 Thursday LENGTH: 441 words HEADLINE: Weather report ANCHORS: ANN CURRY REPORTERS: AL ROKER BODY: ANN CURRY, anchor: You're up to date at 5 minutes past the hour. It's time for TODAY'S WEATHER forecast with Al in Chicago. JOE WITTE, announcer: TODAY'S WEATHER is brought to you by... AL ROKER reporting: And good morning, everybody. Of course, everybody knows Chicago is known as the Windy City. But it's not why you think. Take a look. Chicago, the architecture, the lake. Oh, yeah, and the wind. It wasn't those nasty Alberta Clippers, but a very different kind of wind that forever branded Chicago the Windy City. Desperate to win the competition to host the 1893 World's Fair, Chicago put on a full-court press against chief rival, New York City. Mr. RUSSELL LEWIS (Historian): Somewhere along the line, the people in New York just were so tired of hearing Chicagoans talk about how great their city was, that an editorial appeared in the New York Sun referred to Chicago as that Windy City, referring to all the hot wind that came out of its boosters. ROKER: But it's that bitter cold wind that most people associate with the Windy City. So we were curious. Just how windy is the Windy City? Mr. JIM STEFKOVICH (National Weather Service): There are many cities, about 50 or so cities, with higher wind speed averages than Chicago, and that includes New York City, Boston, Milwaukee, San Francisco and the like. ROKER: So does Chicago's weather get a bad wrap? Unidentified Man: It's difficult, but it's nice to have four seasons as well. ROKER: Well, you certainly don't hear any complaints about those lake-front breezes come August. (...) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Mar 4 03:04:25 2004 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:04:25 -0600 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language stillin usage In-Reply-To: <4046633E.3E38DFE2@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Not just rural areas. The Chicago City Council is made up of alderman, and they have aldermanic elections. Herb We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities. sally donlon Joshua Nimocks wrote: > I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or > clan.' > > -Joshua Nimocks > > On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Vida J Morkunas > > Subject: Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still > > in usage > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Joshua, > > > > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch > > > > Vida. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of > > Joshua Nimocks > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in > > usage > > > > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of > > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. > > > > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED > > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. > > > > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to > > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. > > > > In case anyone wanted to know, > > Joshua Nimocks > > From alcockg at SRICRM.COM Thu Mar 4 03:20:00 2004 From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:20:00 -0800 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <200403040032.TAA08178@excellent.cnchost.com> Message-ID: True, usually when we point fingers about tax bases vs. expenditures, water rights, and whether to say "the" when mentioning a freeway number, it's always northern vs. southern California, not up- and downstate. I could imagine somebody in the San Francisco/Sacramento areas saying "upstate" when referring to Redding or Eureka or Shasta, however; there's an entire third of the state north of the Bay Area. I've just never heard it. Gwyn Alcock Redlands, CA (born in northern, raised in southern, lived in both) -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter A. McGraw Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 4:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Upstate/downstate To my knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and Southern CA. To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to involve a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the state. Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of its two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context for "upstate" or "downstate." From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 4 03:30:52 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:30:52 -0500 Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:28PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this? > > > > (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall, > > Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948 > > "I see," said the blind man -- > > This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism. > > "Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew. > John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533) Face! Barry, even you've never found a 400-year antedating.... Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 4 03:29:42 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:29:42 -0500 Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least > after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions > about the other outer boroughs. I know, you'd usually get to S.I. > from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of > quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit. (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry > crowd?) The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but > they're not suburban enough to qualify. I'm not sure about Queens. ??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards (i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban. Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get there, it's what it's like. Jesse Sheidlower OED From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Mar 4 04:03:55 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:03:55 -0500 Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people In-Reply-To: <20040304032942.GA7958@panix.com> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least >> after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions >> about the other outer boroughs. I know, you'd usually get to S.I. >> from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of >> quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit. (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry >> crowd?) The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but >> they're not suburban enough to qualify. I'm not sure about Queens. > >??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the >archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about >those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards >(i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were >especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban. > >Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get >there, it's what it's like. > Thanks, Jesse. I was pretty sure of that usage (along with the facetious Hoboken), but I'm pretty loath to quarrel with Larry's Sprachgefühl. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 04:41:27 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:41:27 -0500 Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card Message-ID: DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS Another helping of a dear, deer topic. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Dan Quayle's Got The Right Stuff By Richard N. Perle WASHINGTON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 25, 1988. p. A31 (1 page) But, you may ask, could this be the same man you saw in the debate with Lloyd Bentsen--caught, as one commentator put it, like a deer in the headlights, frozen with fear? (FACTIVA) WILLIAMS SMOOTHS THE SHARP EDGES OF THE BAD JOKES IN LIFE By Jerry Schwartz, The Associated Press 952 words 23 January 1989 The Record, Northern New Jersey All Editions.=.Four Star B. Four Star P. Two Star. One; Star b07 English (Copyright 1989) Robin Williams traverses the country, ridiculing Republicans. Ronald Reagan is "the world's largest Muppet." Dan Quayle is "the Stepford candidate." George Bush is a political hypnotist: "T'ousand points of light, watch de watch." (...) Some audiences balk at political humor, and "they'll look like a deer in the headlights of a Peterbilt [a tractor-trailer!." (FACTIVA) THE HUNT // An urge as ancient as man lingers in the air of autumn Ron Schara; Staff Writer 668 words 7 September 1986 Star-Tribune Newspaper of the Twin Cities Mpls.-St. Paul METRO 17C English (Copyright 1986) The Hunt has begun. The Hunt. More than seasons and limits. More than a license to kill. On Saturday, grouse and squirrels, rabbits and huns become legal targets in Minnesota. Deer, too, by bow and arrow. These are but opening dates. The Hunt in mankind started eons ago. Our canine teeth are duller now but - for some of us - the Hunt lingers in the air of September. And September has come. A few of us the other day were discussing the Hunt. Cecil Bell was talking. He's a deer hunter. Hunts with bow and arrow. It's powerful stuff, the memories of the Hunt. Bell recalled the moment he saw the second largest whitetail buck ever taken in Manitoba. It was ambling toward Bell's ambush site. And he was armed with razor broadheads. Please remember, millions of folks have seen deer in the headlights, in zoos, in the wild. But a hunter sees deer differently. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- PLAY THE "X" CARD An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today. On JSTOR, AMERICAN SPEECH "Among the New Words" traces this back to 1978. JSTOR features allow better searching, however. There are lots of hits, summarized below. (JSTOR) The New York Building Trades John R. Commons The Quarterly Journal of Economics, Vol. 18, No. 3. (May, 1904), pp. 409-436 Pg. 430: THese sensations undoubtedly made owners timid and retarded new enterprises; and this timidity of capital was the card, and the only card, that this union had to play. (in Book Reviews) Politische Correspondenz Friedrich's des Grossen Gustav Berthold Volz Review author[s]: Walter L. Dorn The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 2, No. 4. (Dec., 1930), pp. 661-665 Pg. 664: They reflect the monarch's growing consciousness that in contingencies such as this one Prussia had but a single trump card to play--the army--and that, whenever she played the card, the whole existence of Prussia was at stake. British Public Opinion and Foreign Policy Harold Nicolson The Public Opinion Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 1. (Jan., 1937), pp. 53-63. Pg. 56: And they took it for granted that, should circumstances require them to play the last card in foreign policy, namely the card of force, the public would automatically support them even if it came to war. Briefer Notices (in Book Reviews and Notices) The American Political Science Review, Vol. 25, No. 1. (Feb., 1931), pp. 214-239 Pg. 229: ...the German decision to play the last card, unrestricted submarine warfare. Belgium Unvanquished Roger Motz Review author[s]: Lady Galway Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 41, No. 165. (Oct., 1942), pp. 239-240. Pg. 240: Already during the last war Germany did her utmost to play the Flemish separatists' card, and exasperate Walloon feelings. Japanese Uncertainties R. Guillain International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jul., 1950), pp. 329-338. Pg. 330: ...economically, to re-make Japan as a factory for Asia, and if possible an American factory; internationally, to make Japan "play the American card". Catholic Parties in Latin Europe R. V. Burks The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 24, No. 3. (Sep., 1952), pp. 269-286. Pg. 286: Having lost the electoral game, the Popular Front has now only the power of riot and insurrection. Should it attempt to play this card, the transition to authoritarianism will be sudden rather than gradual. The Russian Overture to Germany of December 1924 Zygmunt J. Gasiorowski The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 30, No. 2. (Jun., 1958), pp. 99-117. Pg. 110, note 51: Since Poland was even more alarmed than Russia by the German move, Moscow began to play the Polish card. Italy's Neutrality and Entrance into the Great War: A Re-examination William A. Renzi The American Historical Review, Vol. 73, No. 5. (Jun., 1968), pp. 1414-1432. Pg. 1425: To the last both were reluctant to play the "terrible card" of war. The Political Balance in Saigon Peter King Pacific Affairs, Vol. 44, No. 3. (Autumn, 1971), pp. 401-420. Pg. 405, footnote: Minh is seen as a big card to play at a certain point in the Paris game. Sun Yat-sen and the Japanese: 1914-16 Albert A. Altman; Harold Z. Schiffrin Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 6, No. 4. (1972), pp. 385-400. Pg. 392: The following month, when the southern anti-monarchist army still encountered strong resistance, the Japanese finally decided to play their Sun Yat-sen card, but through private, unofficial channels. National Socialism and Antisemitism: The Case of Maurice Barres Zeev Sternhell Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 8, No. 4. (Oct., 1973), pp. 47-66. Pg. 61: Fortified by his personal experience, he reproached Boulanger for the General's refusal to play the antisemitic card; his opposition to basing the movement on antisemitism and socialism was the main reason for its defeat. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 4 04:52:05 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:52:05 -0500 Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >>On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>> I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least >>> after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions >>> about the other outer boroughs. I know, you'd usually get to S.I. >>> from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of >>> quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit. (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry >>> crowd?) The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but >>> they're not suburban enough to qualify. I'm not sure about Queens. >> >>??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the >>archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about >>those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards >>(i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were >>especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban. >> >>Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get >>there, it's what it's like. >> > >Thanks, Jesse. I was pretty sure of that usage (along with the >facetious Hoboken), but I'm pretty loath to quarrel with Larry's >Sprachgefühl. > Ach, just being Sprachgefühlisch again--I've been out of the City too long, it appears... larry horn From pds at VISI.COM Thu Mar 4 05:07:44 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:07:44 -0600 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: <20040303215549.67E544C71@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 3/3/2004 01:55 PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > > > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > >Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this? Interestingly, when I try to navigate to that URL I get the Internet Explorer version of the 404 message, even though I am using Netscape. This suggests that we are not getting real 404 messages, but that the page actually residing at that URL is a copy of the IE 404 message. I was able to take the test by Googling "Harvard Computer Dialect Survey" and going the the cached copy of this page. And FWIW, in spite of the flaws in the test, this lifelong Midwesterner scored a predictable 38%. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 4 08:45:33 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:45:33 -0800 Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects In-Reply-To: <200403032138.1aYLyx7lY3NZFjK0@condor> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 3/3/2004 01:55 PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >> > >> >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm >> > >Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this? > >... I was able >to take the test by Googling "Harvard Computer Dialect Survey" and going >the the cached copy of this page. Thanks. Unfortunately, though I was able to get there via Google, the survey was closed. Oh well. Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 08:55:45 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:55:45 EST Subject: Blind Man (16th century); Beep (1952); Buyer's Remorse; Frienemies Message-ID: BLIND MAN Amazing...Every day is like this. I recently wrote to the New Orleans Fair Grounds to tell them again about my first grade project, done twelve years ago. No response! Jesse writes: On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:28PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this? > > > > (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall, > > Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948 > > "I see," said the blind man -- > > This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism. > > "Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew. > John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533) Face! Barry, even you've never found a 400-year antedating.... Jesse Sheidlower OED Fred Shapiro made his post at 6 p.m. No one saw this in a post that I had made at 3 a.m.--15 hours before? No one read "blind man" on my post's subject line? No one? No one: Wellerisms in which a man or woman speaks may be actual remarks that caught popular fancy and became traditional: "'That I would fain see,' said blind Hugh", which was current in the sixteenth century, may be such a quotation, for there was then a famous wit called Blind Hugh. A Swedish scholar has conjectured that generic names replaced specific names when ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BEEP This never ends. I was asked to beat this: beep, borough president. 8.23.1980 As I posted here on 13 December 2000, over three years ago, from the Brooklyn College library: 21 October 1952, KEN, pg. 5, col. 1--...Borough President John Cashmore..."Beep" Cashmore.(Compare with VP=Veep--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BUYER'S REMORSE http://www.johnellis.blogspot.com/ Tuesday, March 02, 2004 Buyer's Remorse It's not a clean sweep -- Dean wins Vermont! -- but it's the end of Edwards. And therefore Senator John Kerry will be the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee. Let the buyer's remorse begin! BUYER'S REMORSE--38,400 Google hits, 5,440 Google Groups hits "Buyer's remorse" is not in the OED. (GOOGLE GROUPS)("buyer's remorse" + "Kerry") Re: John F-ing Kerry, The MOST Liberal Senator,.,.,.,.,.,., ! ... Super Tuesday will tell us if the democrats are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse, in a switch over to Edwards. Let's see..... Kerry, then Dean, back to Kerry ... alt.politics.usa.republican - Feb 27, 2004 by Tarver Engineering - View Thread (4 articles) Re: Kerry & National Guard ... six "members attending" a meeting to plan the protest was "John Kerry-NE Rep." === Kerry should address ... There's already some buyer's remorse among Democrats. ... alt.fan.dan-quayle - Feb 24, 2004 by Milt - View Thread (5 articles) Is Bush too conservative for America? ... gang is trotting out its scaremongering tactics about whether Kerry is too ... and civil war, President Bush appears to be experiencing buyer's remorse about the ... alt.politics.bush - Feb 19, 2004 by Luis ORTEGA - View Thread (6 articles) Re: More bad news for the dubya ... Exit polls in Wisconsin seem to indicate a growing buyer's remorse with Kerry amongst Democrats, hence Edwards closeing so fast. ... talk.politics.misc - Feb 18, 2004 by Spread Eagle - View Thread (37 articles) Re: Dean made me a Democrat, Kerry made me a Republican ... I have talked to a few of my former friends ("former" because they went for Kerry here Michigan to play it safe). They are having buyer's remorse right now. ... alt.politics.democrat - Feb 18, 2004 by Kirk Gregory Czuhai - View Thread (9 articles) NBC: faux populism by the Democratic elite for the simple-minded ... the Kerry campaign. He's the default option of Democratic voters after the amazing rise and fall of Howard Dean, with the mother of all buyer's remorse coming ... rec.music.artists.springsteen - Feb 6, 2004 by SMBalloon - View Thread (2 articles) (GOOGLE GROUPS)("buyer's remorse") Re: I know I did the right thing but... ... Help!!!! "Buyer's remorse" is a very common thing when you spend a lot of money. People experience grief whenever a major change happens, even good ones! ... alt.recovery - Jun 21, 1991 by Robert Hartman - View Thread (9 articles) Re: Info on Drake rcvrs ... continental USA). They will refund the purchase price if you send it back to them within 15 days ("buyer's remorse"). The brochure ... rec.radio.swap - May 1, 1991 by Bob Parnass, AJ9S - View Thread (3 articles) Summary (Non/)interlaced monitors - 1231 lines long ... disk with shareware GIF viewers and GIF files, just so his customers will have SOME WAY to use the HIRES modes, and not develop buyer's remorse about spending ... comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware - Mar 6, 1991 by ff76 at vaxb.acs.unt.edu - View Thread (2 articles) I wrongly flamed 47th ST/Nikon Warranty Info ... obiquitous "Nikon USA" white cards. We completed the sale, and I guess later on, I got a case of buyer's remorse. I read the fine ... rec.photo - Jan 2, 1991 by Mark Goldberg - View Thread (1 article) Re: A happy Harley owner. Was: Another happy R100GS owner ... This delayed buyer's remorse is a nice self defense mechanism for someone who already buys motorcycles as often as most people buy shoes. ... rec.motorcycles - May 15, 1990 by Chuck Wessel - View Thread (3 articles) Speaker quest ends ... My wife said they sounded good, lets buy these (a little buyer's remorse about the $6K set in as her emotions sagged). I said no, I hated the humpy bass. ... rec.audio - May 14, 1990 by Kurt Strain - View Thread (7 articles) Re: Boogie Mark I Reissue ... Not that I'm looking to buy another amp after emptying my wallet on the Boogie, but can you spell "Buyer's Remorse"? -bill leff rec.music.makers - Mar 9, 1990 by Bill Leff - View Thread (6 articles )Re: a hamster called Paul ... intimately. I went away kind of depressed, but didn't understand why I felt that way. It was almost like buyer's remorse. Possibly ... rec.music.beatles - Feb 24, 1990 by Richard W. Cook - View Thread (5 articles) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Most hits are from 1977--ed.) Post Crescent - 4/26/1967 ...the period of time they guarantinued, 'BUYER'S REMORSE' and seek a means of getting.....Enrollment He tells the prospective buyer that he wants to enroll him in a borne.....of Commerce, Area gives this advice to the buyer and the film salesman: he said, first.....receive the film at the bargain rate, the buyer is given film stamps. The exposed film.. Appleton, Wisconsin Wednesday, April 26, 1967 628 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FRIENEMIES FRIENEMY--265 Google hits, 19 Google Groups hits (from August 2, 1993) FRIENEMIES--504 Google hits, 72 Google Groups hits (from November 27, 1998) FRENEMY--950 Google hits, 26 Google Groups hits (from February 15, 1999) FRENEMIES--803 Google hits, 87 Google Groups hits (from February 23, 1999) From the Word Spy of March 3: http://www.wordspy.com/words/frienemy.asp Notes: This just-so blend of friend and enemy was coined by singer/songwriter Gregg Alexander of New Radicals and first appeared in his 1998 song, "You Get What You Give," a catchy tune if there ever was one (see the first use, below). The rap group Arsonists also used the word (as Frienemies) as the title of a song on their album As the World Burns, released August 24, 1999, and the word also made an appearance on the HBO show Sex and the City. Thanks to Rima McKinzey for bringing this word to my attention. (...) First Use: Wake up kids We've got the dreamers disease Age 14 we got you down on your knees So polite, you're busy still saying please Frienemies, who when you're down ain't your friend Every night we smash their Mercedes-Benz. —Gregg Alexander, "You Get What You Give," New Radicals: Maybe You've Been Brainwashed Too, October 20, 1998 Yes, I'd posted this here on ADS-L three years earlier, on 6 April 2001! I was recently looking for "frienemy," but I wrote it then as "frienemies." Both "frienemy" and "frenemy" should be searched and cited. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Nevada State Journal - 5/19/1953 ...hope to Howz about calling the Russians our FRIENEMIES? The Communists who refuse to.....brings a fancy price in the out of print book marts. Yours, Bob Downing." Blind.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, May 19, 1953 739 k Mansfield News Journal - 3/13/1960 ...has one man made so basketball tourney FRIENEMIES in so short a time." Ml lie Sport.. Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, March 13, 1960 765 k From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Mar 4 13:00:08 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:00:08 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: From: "Peter A. McGraw" : Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had : heard "upstate" only in connection with NY. So there's always a : first time, but I've never heard the term used in connection with any : western state, and I assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the : Mississippi... Possibly a northeastern usage, at that. I'm from Maryland, where there *is* no north (people hail from the Eastern Shore, Western Maryland, Southern Maryland, or Central Maryland, with the latter sometimes subdivided into the DC Area and Central Maryland). I don't recall ever hearing an upstate/downstate contrast in West Virginia, which clearly has a sliver pointing north. Florida has North Florida and South Florida, with the Panhandle and Central Florida filling out the rest of the state's geography. South Carolina, IIRC, has an Upcountry/Lowcountry distinction, but that seems to be elevation rather than north/south (which it is, but it's even more east/west). I've also never heard Upstate/Downstate used for any of the Intermountain West states. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 4 13:32:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:32:30 -0500 Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card In-Reply-To: <59635B43.6C4DEAA8.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today. You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out... Thanks for the great hits. If I had more time, I'd be working full-time on antedatings, too. But, alas, the rest of the book begs for more attention... Grant From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Mar 4 13:24:13 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:24:13 +0000 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone reported that there's no 'upstate/downstate' discussion in the archives, but I've checked and there is...the trick is to search in the 'old archives' (1992-1999) rather than the new archives (at the top of the archives page). Cheers, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 4 14:02:41 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:02:41 -0500 Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card In-Reply-To: <628F94E9-6DE0-11D8-81EA-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:32:30AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > >An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today. > > You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS > person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an > ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out... Yes. Of course, a _real_ OED person would have realized that _play the X card_ is already in OED, with a first quote from 1886. :-) Jesse Sheidlower echt-OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 4 15:12:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:12:30 -0500 Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card In-Reply-To: <20040304140241.GA4620@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2004, at 09:02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:32:30AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today. >> >> You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS >> person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an >> ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out... > > Yes. Of course, a _real_ OED person would have realized that > _play the X card_ is already in OED, with a first quote from > 1886. Well, I was trying to avoid playing the lexicographical telephone game by quoting a source quoted in a source quoted in a source. Grant From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 4 15:40:36 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:40:36 -0500 Subject: "pro-life" changed to "anti-abortion", erroneously Message-ID: Aficionados of "political correctness gone amok" stories take note: A music critic for the L.A. Times is steamed that a story he wrote containing "pro-life" (not in an abortion context) was changed to "anti-abortion". http://www.laobserved.com/archive/001504.html Jesse Sheidlower OED From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Mar 4 16:22:36 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:22:36 -0600 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english languagestillin usage Message-ID: Sorry. I'm confused. Are you all arguing about the oldest word that hasn't undergone any change or "evolution"? Carved in a cave? Written alone in a document? Can we really assume the OED as our principal source for information on language change and the processes involved in it? Its benefits are obvious, but I would think in discussions such as this one, we ought to go back to the full text(s). Herb Stahlke wrote: > Not just rural areas. The Chicago City Council is made up of alderman, and they have aldermanic elections. > > Herb > > We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities. > > sally donlon > > Joshua Nimocks wrote: > > > I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or > > clan.' > > > > -Joshua Nimocks > > > > On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Vida J Morkunas > > > Subject: Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still > > > in usage > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Hi Joshua, > > > > > > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch > > > > > > Vida. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of > > > Joshua Nimocks > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in > > > usage > > > > > > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of > > > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language. > > > > > > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED > > > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage. > > > > > > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to > > > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively. > > > > > > In case anyone wanted to know, > > > Joshua Nimocks > > > From willie at HIS.COM Thu Mar 4 16:26:27 2004 From: willie at HIS.COM (Willie) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:26:27 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <200403031846.i23Ikv018405@mail.his.com> Message-ID: And I can tell you with MORE conviction than Alice that New Paltz is WAAAY upstate. I grew up on Long Island, so everything north of Westchester is somewhere out there. Willie Schatz Professional Writing Program University of Maryland ------------------------------------ Duane Campbell said: >With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to >this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's >Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with >conviction that New Paltz is downstate. And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's south of Albany, is still upstate to me. -- ======================================================================= ====== Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 17:03:29 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:03:29 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"Yankee"=20and=20"D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ixie"=20dialects?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/3/04 11:50:41 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: > >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, > based > >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if > not > >totally scientific: > > > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > > > >Orin Hargraves > >(49% yankee) > > I'm skeptical. > Larry Horn > ("54% dixie"-- > grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin, > and New England) > I think they are totally wrong about SACK and BAG. I grew up in Iowa as a SACK guy, and was surprised that in North Carolina the folks were all BAG people. From vole at NETW.COM Thu Mar 4 17:48:04 2004 From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:48:04 -0800 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <200403031631312.SM02600@psmtp.com> Message-ID: Having lived next door to the Idaho panhandle for most of my life, I would say that the only terms I've ever heard used to differentiate were "The Panhandle" and "Northern" vs. "Southern" Idaho. The beginning of the panhandle is generally the cutoff point. I've found there to be a similar dispute amongst Washington natives as regards the eastern/western boundary. Most people from the Cascades west (Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia, etc.) refer to everything east of the mountains as "Eastern Washington." However, many people in the far-east of Eastern Washington (Spokane, etc.) consider there to be a Central Washington which includes Yakima, Tri Cities, etc. People from Central Washington seem generally to agree that they are from Eastern Washington, though I've found a few who described themselves as Central. Interestingly (and in accordance with my personal feelings), there is a Western Washington University in Bellingham, a Central Washington University in Ellensburg, and an Eastern Washington University in Cheney. Joel Shaver On Mar 3, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" > Subject: Re: Upstate/downstate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I searched the archives for "upstate" in the subject line and found > only > today's discussion. > > Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had heard > "upstate" only in connection with NY. So there's always a first time, > but > I've never heard the term used in connection with any western state, > and I > assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the Mississippi. To my > knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and > Southern CA. > To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to > involve > a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the > state. Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of > its > two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context > for > "upstate" or "downstate." > > I don't know enough about Idaho to say whether the terms are or or not > used, but the only word I've ever heard for any specific part of the > state > is "the panhandle" (i.e., the narrow part that barely keeps Washington > and > Montana from bumping into each other). > > Peter Mc. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 17:58:31 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:58:31 EST Subject: Val-girl [sic] "like" Message-ID: Well, "teenaged girls" and "Val-girls" are not the same thing by any means. But the accuracy of labelling the supposedly "new" (which of course they are not) uses of "like" as "Val-girl 'like'" is not really the important problem here. The article that she refers to (which she sent in an attached file that set off a virus warning) "explains" (albeit somewhat jocularly) that the author fined her children and then "started hitting" them for using "like" in ways that she did not approve of--and then sanctioned them hitting themselves (and each other, and their own children in the future)--as punishment for their use of this linguistic form. How and wny she chooses to discipline her children behind closed doors--so long as she doesn't break any laws--is her own business. But when she goes public with her behavior--and engages the subject of the language--that is another story. Her article says: "We have started hitting the kids when they use 'like' in any of its misbegotten forms: a replacement for 'say', a replacement for 'as', an unnecessary interjection that seems to promise a metaphor but instead reveals a stunted education and an effete imagination." This is not an "explanation," it is simply an assertion of unexplained prejudices. Fitzpatrick has a right to her prejudices. She even has the right, apparently, to "smack" her children if their linguistic behavior does not meet with her approval. We have a right, though, to contest the arrogant and ignorant value judgments that she has sent to ADS-L. There is no basis--other than her own "stunted education and effete imagination"--for making such "chronically aghast" pronouncements. At worst, linguistic change is just that, change--and nothing more. In this case, however, all three of the uses of "like" that she sees as a sign of "assault by barbarians" seem to have perfectly sound linguistic reasons for having emerged in English. If she would listen to her children, rather than hitting them, she might learn something. In a message dated 3/3/04 4:57:08 PM, grendel.jjf at verizon.net writes: > > Yeah, but teenaged girls have like raised to like a higher modality. Curbing > it is like indeed my matter, and I y'know sorta explain it in the like > article that was sooo cited in my post. > >   > > I like sooo remain, sir, > > Yr like obt svt, > >   > > Seán Fitzpatrick > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 4 17:50:46 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:50:46 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_"Yankee"_and_"D_ixie"_?= dialects In-Reply-To: <1de.19ed1754.2d78bb61@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/3/04 11:50:41 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote: > > >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, > > based > > >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if > > not > > >totally scientific: > > > > > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm > > > > > >Orin Hargraves > > >(49% yankee) > > > > I'm skeptical. > > Larry Horn > > ("54% dixie"-- > > grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin, > > and New England) > > > >I think they are totally wrong about SACK and BAG. I grew up in Iowa as a >SACK guy, and was surprised that in North Carolina the folks were all BAG >people. They (whoever they are) are obviously not taking into account migration from North to South (or Sunbelt). So today there may indeed be lots of 'bag' people in NC, even though older residents would have used 'sack'. And Iowa is split, as I recall, but 'sack' usage would hardly qualify Iowans as Dixie-ites (note that I avoided Dixiecrats). Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school. Who answered the original Harvard survey anyway--mobile university types like us? From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 4 18:34:25 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:34:25 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <200403031747.i23HlHgV026241@mxu5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets it apart from the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of being aggrieved. The accent I think is also why I think of the use of phat, and why I felt from the first time I heard "wrong" that it was a faddish use doomed to die. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Gwyn Alcock > >I picked up "wrong" from co-workers in Northern California >about six years ago. > >Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final >word in the >sentence: "This is _wrong_." > >It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, >something or a situation that's rotten (literally or >figuratively), offensive, or unjust. Usage can range from >jesting or teasing to quite serious. > >Gwyn Alcock >Redlands, California > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society >[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett > >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Wrong and Holla > >This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways. > >He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," >he proclaims, meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong. > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 4 18:49:28 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:49:28 -0800 Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects Message-ID: >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>> At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school. Don't you mean 'beg' ? Fritz Juengling From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 18:45:35 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:45:35 EST Subject: Wrong and Holla Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/04 1:35:11 PM, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets it apart from > the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of being > aggrieved. > I don't think that "accent" is an issue at all. I didn't check the OED to see how old this usage is, but ordinary dictionaries (e.g., AH4) have the meaning 'unfair; unjust' (as #3 in AH4) and 'immoral' (as #2 ion AH4). And the usage is all over the place on the intenet, e.g., When a religious person does a thing that he recognizes as being wrong and immoral, his illusion of a "Higher Power" and a "Greater Morality" allows them to perform some ritual, confession, or prayer, and presto, miraculously, "all their sins are taken away", and they are free again from all pains of conscience and regret. Such foolish illusions do not comfort the Atheist mind. The Atheist knows there is no morality above right and wrong, and no escape from the pains of conscience and remorse. (Note also the use of 'them' to refer to a singular subject.) Indeed, as a noun, it seems to me that the primary meaning of WRONG is 'injustice'. It seems to me that it is context, not intonation and stress, that clarify "This is WRONG!" refers to a mistake, an injustice, or an immoral action. From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 4 18:52:33 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:52:33 -0800 Subject: Wrong and Holla In-Reply-To: <200403041846.i24Ik9fw005969@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: This use seems definitely different to me. As a native speaker of English, I'm certainly aware that wrong can mean unjust, etc., but this is different. The intonation is similar to "That is phat!" Beyond that, I don't know if I can explain it, but there is definitely a difference from the uses of the "this is wrong" I've always heard in the past. Benjamin Barrett >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM > >In a message dated 3/4/04 1:35:11 PM, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > >> I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets >it apart >> from the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of >> being aggrieved. >> > >I don't think that "accent" is an issue at all. I didn't check >the OED to see how old this usage is, but ordinary >dictionaries (e.g., AH4) have the meaning 'unfair; unjust' (as >#3 in AH4) and 'immoral' (as #2 ion AH4). And the usage is all >over the place on the intenet, e.g., > > > When a religious person does a thing that he recognizes as >being wrong and immoral, his illusion of a "Higher Power" and >a "Greater Morality" allows them to perform some ritual, >confession, or prayer, and presto, miraculously, "all their >sins are taken away", and they are free again from all pains >of conscience and regret. Such foolish illusions do not >comfort the Atheist mind. The Atheist knows there is no >morality above right and wrong, and no escape from the pains >of conscience and remorse. > >(Note also the use of 'them' to refer to a singular subject.) > >Indeed, as a noun, it seems to me that the primary meaning of >WRONG is 'injustice'. > >It seems to me that it is context, not intonation and stress, >that clarify "This is WRONG!" refers to a mistake, an >injustice, or an immoral action. > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 4 19:06:29 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:06:29 -0500 Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in my day! Has the Northern Cities Shift now reached Minneapolis? At 10:49 AM 3/4/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>> >At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school. > >Don't you mean 'beg' ? > >Fritz Juengling From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Mar 4 20:10:19 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:10:19 EST Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in California. There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State. Hence neither region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate." An interesting piece of nomenclature: Absecon Island is a long, thin, north-south barrier island. From north to south Absecon Island is divided into Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport. The southern portion of the island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach". There does not seem to be a corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City. I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines in World War II, and found something interesting. The decypherment was done at Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London. Yet apparently someone in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"? - James A. Landau From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 4 20:55:24 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:55:24 -0800 Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects Message-ID: Well, I'm not sure if this is really part of the NCVS (but the answer to your question is 'yes' it has), but EVERY kid pledges allegiance to the [fle:g] and most people put there vittles in a [be:g]. Outlanders notice this Minnesotaism right away. I say that I am not sure if it is part of the NCVS because many people say 'beg' but have no other characteristics of the NCVS. Also, 'beg' is found in Idaho and even among some little 'taters of Idaho immigrants here in Oregon. I think [baeg] is rather uncharateristic of Twin City speech at least. Fritz Juengling >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 11:06AM >>> Not in my day! Has the Northern Cities Shift now reached Minneapolis? At 10:49 AM 3/4/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>> >At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school. > >Don't you mean 'beg' ? > >Fritz Juengling From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 4 22:47:31 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:47:31 -0500 Subject: Wrong [and Holla] In-Reply-To: <200403040502.i2452Pvq027700@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Rima saith: >>> I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many science fiction fans. A human is making love to an alien, another human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." <<< Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999. The expression appears in Lois McMaster Bujold's sf novel _Cetaganda_, which is copyright 1995. At a display of genetic art, one character (Ivan) sees a tree bearing flowers, with live kittens in the blossoms, and exclaims "That's just *wrong*!" I quote approximately, from memory, but it is definitely a form of this expression. The Sage Hen notes: >>> Then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "Eating People is Wrong!" (Donald sings) I won't eat people.... I won't eat people.... Eating people is wrong. A. Murie <<< Different (imho). That's a plain adjective, predicated of a gerund phrase, not the novel locution Gwyn Alcock describes as: >>> Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final word in the sentence: "This is _wrong_." It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust. Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious. <<< -- though it may be an example of the kind of use of the adjective that developed to the idiom. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 4 22:54:47 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:54:47 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <200403040502.i2452Pvq027700@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Joshua Nimocks clarifies: #I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or #clan.' I'm sorry, I don't think that's still in usage. OED OnLine (diacritics dropped for email): >>> Obs. 1. Parent, ancestor, elder (chiefly in pl.). [In this sense only in OE.; superseded by the compar. of the adj. ald (eald), eldran: see ELDER.] 2. The head of a family or clan; a patriarch, chief, prince, or ruler. (Used to translate L. titles, as senior, princeps, dominus, dux.) <<< The latest citation is "c1340". And "alderman" is as opaque as "woman". Obs., indeed. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM Fri Mar 5 00:44:50 2004 From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:44:50 -0700 Subject: Wrong [and Holla] In-Reply-To: <200403041548253.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel wrote: > Rima saith: > I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many > science fiction fans. A human is making love to an alien, another > human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." > > Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999. The line in Galaxy Quest is: "Ooh, that's not right." -- Steve Clason Boulder, Colorado, USA From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Mar 5 01:26:22 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:26:22 -0600 Subject: "Street Sweeper" Message-ID: See http://www.ludd.luth.se/~antenna/t2k/saul/weapons/nato/shotguns/street.htm - "Street Sweeper" was originally a brand/model name for a shotgun made by the South African corporation, ARMSCOR, and was essentially a twelve shot revolver chambered for shotgun ammunition.. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: -------------------------------------------- STREET SWEEPER From the NEW YORK SUN, 2 March 2004, letters, pg. 9, col. 4: With regard to Errol Louis's column on cab-driver safety, there has not been a rash of livery muggings ("The Outer-Borough Taxi Crisis," Opinion, February 17, 2004). The incidents that Mr. Louis described were all perpetrated against drivers who were doing street hails, or as we refer to them, "street sweepers." The drivers who strictly adhere to the law and perform only radio-dispatched calls are never the target of these incidents. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Mar 5 01:40:11 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:40:11 -0600 Subject: "poutine" (Quebec food), or how George Bush believed he was endorsed by Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine Message-ID: A while back there were a few ads-l messages about the Quebec food "poutine." Here now is a relevant Wall Street Journal article (March 2, 2000, sec.B, p. 1); title: "George W. Ambushed By Canadian Comic In New Name Gaffe", by Julian Beltrame: "The name of a world leader has gotten George W. Bush into trouble again. "After a rally in Canton, Mich., last week, a man posing as a Canadian television reporter told Mr. Bush that Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine had endorsed him as 'the man to lead the free world into the 21st century.' "Mr. Bush beamed. 'I'm honored,' he said. "I appreciate his strong statement. He understands our belief in free trade,' the aspiring president added. 'He understands I want to ensure our relationship with our most important neighbor to the north us us, Canadians, is strong. We will work closely together.' "Unfortunately for Mr. Bush, Canada's prime minister is Jean Chretien, not Poutine. Poutine is a French-Canadian concoction of french fries and cheese curds smothered in gravy that is much beloved in Quebec. "The man posing as a journalist was Canadian comedian Rick Mercer, whose segment on a satirical weekly TV show often lampoons American ignorance of Canadian matters. He once had the governor of Arkansas congratulate Canada on building a 'national igloo' to protect its Parliament building. The show broadcast Mr. Bush's reply earlier this week. 'We got him hook, line and sinker,' said producer Geoff D'Eon. ..." Gerald Cohen From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Fri Mar 5 02:14:44 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:14:44 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: Another use of down that has always struck me as uniquely local is Maine's "down east", NE in direction but downstream by ocean current. Herb New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in California. There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State. Hence neither region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate." An interesting piece of nomenclature: Absecon Island is a long, thin, north-south barrier island. From north to south Absecon Island is divided into Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport. The southern portion of the island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach". There does not seem to be a corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City. I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines in World War II, and found something interesting. The decypherment was done at Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London. Yet apparently someone in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"? - James A. Landau From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 5 02:33:56 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:33:56 -0800 Subject: Wrong [and Holla] In-Reply-To: <200403041645.1aZ3sH2Dp3NZFjw0@skylark> Message-ID: >... A human is making love to an alien, another > > human sees them and says, "That's just wrong." > >> >> Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999. > >The line in Galaxy Quest is: "Ooh, that's not right." Oops. I guess I remembered it wrong. I'll just have to rent it again... Rima From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 5 03:11:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:11:45 -0500 Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in usage -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0500 3/4/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Joshua Nimocks clarifies: > >#I'm sorry. I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or >#clan.' > >I'm sorry, I don't think that's still in usage. FWIW, in some communities (e.g. New Haven), "alder" is used (sex-neutrally) for what "alderman" used to be used for. It doesn't quite mean "parent, elder" or "patriarch, ruler", but it's clearly descended from and related to those uses. (Aldermanic districts are still so-called; I don't think I've heard "alderic". I've always liked the "-manic" part.) larry horn > >OED OnLine (diacritics dropped for email): > > >>> >Obs. > > 1. Parent, ancestor, elder (chiefly in pl.). [In this sense only in >OE.; superseded by the compar. of the adj. ald (eald), eldran: see >ELDER.] > > 2. The head of a family or clan; a patriarch, chief, prince, or >ruler. (Used to translate L. titles, as senior, princeps, dominus, dux.) > <<< > >The latest citation is "c1340". And "alderman" is as opaque as "woman". >Obs., indeed. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 5 03:37:22 2004 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:37:22 -0600 Subject: Scots and/or Irish American dialect Message-ID: A quick question (actually 2): I'm proofing some dialogue for a writer who's trying to capture characters who are Scottish-American and Irish American in the 19th century. Most of it seems okay, but I had questions about two things: Would an Irishman really say "Sure and begorrah" or is that mainly a stereotypical realization of Irish American speech? Would a Scotsman say 'Ach!" (meaning "Ah!") That sounds more German to me than Scots. If not, what would he say instead? Thanks! Patti Kurtz Minot State University. -- - Things are only impossible until they are not! Picard to Data, "When the Bough Breaks." From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 5 03:38:39 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:38:39 -0800 Subject: "pro-life" changed to "anti-abortion", erroneously In-Reply-To: <200403040740.1aYUY065i3NZFkl0@cockatoo> Message-ID: >Aficionados of "political correctness gone amok" stories take note: >A music critic for the L.A. Times is steamed that a story he wrote >containing "pro-life" (not in an abortion context) was changed to >"anti-abortion". Isn't that exactly what happened at some point with "African-American is the Color of my True Love's Hair"? Here's to unexamined global changes... Rima From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 5 03:38:54 2004 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:38:54 -0600 Subject: Scots and Irish Dialect part 2 Message-ID: Sorry-- got the time period wrong on my first post-- it's 1790-1800. Thanks. Patti -- - Things are only impossible until they are not! Picard to Data, "When the Bough Breaks." From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 5 03:49:22 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:49:22 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate Message-ID: James A. Landau writes: >Yet apparently someone in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? >One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"?< ~~~~~~~~ It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe. Remember The Oak & the Ash: A north country lass Up to London has strayed, Although with her nature It did not agree......? The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out) of University. ~~~~~~~~ As for "upstate" in NY, although we are about as far up as you can go, just a stone's throw from Quebec, we are "NorthCountry" not "upstate." We speak of the "central tier" or the "southern tier" from here, but I think "downstate" is usually reserved for NYC or perhaps, sometimes, Albany. A Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 5 03:48:23 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:48:23 -0500 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina Message-ID: My subject line says it all. Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam? Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 5 04:49:29 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:49:29 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Yet apparently someone >in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to >Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? > > >One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery >lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town >drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"?< >~~~~~~~~ >It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe. >Remember The Oak & the Ash: > >A north country lass >Up to London has strayed, >Although with her nature >It did not agree......? > >The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out) >of University. More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until it reached some point where its designation would change and it would become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be when I researched it a few years ago. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 5 05:27:56 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:27:56 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040304234328.02f094b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 11:49 PM -0500 3/4/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India >for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other >conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please >forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until >it reached some point where its designation would change and it would >become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be >when I researched it a few years ago. > In some U.S. cities (but not New York), including I believe both Boston and Chicago, the terms are "inbound" and "outbound", e.g. for subway/metro purposes. I haven't encountered "upbound", and while Bruce Springsteen sings about a "downbound train", I'm pretty sure he's not referring to one that goes out to the suburbs (or the bridge-and-tunnel lands). larry horn From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Fri Mar 5 05:40:14 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:40:14 -0500 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina Message-ID: Leaving aside the terminological quibble that it is the vulva's orientation that is in question, not the vagina's, I am not sure I have encountered the idea anywhere but in books. In any case, I have never gotten the impression it is a slur. Seán Fitzpatrick http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Clements Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2004 22:48 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina My subject line says it all. Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam? Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 5 05:51:57 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:51:57 -0500 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina In-Reply-To: <000501c40264$b5af0d70$b6631941@sam> Message-ID: >Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam? I don't have any, but to possibly assist in directing a search I'll make a few remarks. I can myself vouch for the currency of this myth or "tall tale" pre-1965 (Detroit) (in two variants, horizontal ["crosswise"] and oblique ["slanted"], as I recall). [This mythical description was not regarded as a slur by the tale-tellers AFAIK.] Apparently the myth was widely known in Japan (per two Japanese nationals [not mutually acquainted], who both seemed to find it humorous and inoffensive BTW) pre-1974. Here is a passage from a favorite book, a memoir by Charles Willeford, _Something about a Soldier_ (1986) (p. 176): <<"What's Jack doing these days?" I asked. <<"He went to sea. He's a mess boy in the Merchant Marine. He sent me a postcard from Hong Kong the other day, saying it isn't true." <<"It isn't true. I just got back from the Philippines myself, and I can vouch for it. ....">> The conversation is recalled from Los Angeles, apparently 1938; I *suspect* that the recollection is close to accurate. There is no preliminary conversation, and there is no indication in the text -- before or after -- of what it is that "isn't true" ... apparently Willeford thought it was clear enough ... and indeed I think we can make a pretty good guess. -- Doug Wilson From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 5 06:09:56 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:09:56 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo Message-ID: from the march 2004 issue of GENRE, the "advice + consent" column by john a. vlahides, p. 78 (answer to a letter from a gay guy): Discovering that you're gay may initially seem like a curse. But hang in there, keep on asking the hard questions, and you may find that turning out a 'mo is the best thing that ever happened to you. 'mo = homo was new to me. it's an example (relatively rare, but not unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable. anyone have other attestations for 'mo? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 06:32:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:32:24 EST Subject: Chili-mac (1925) Message-ID: (NEW ORLEANS FAIRGROUNDS WEB SITE) http://www.fgno.com/ "You could get a bowl of chili-macs at the Belfort Inn for a buck and a quarter," said Joseph E. "Spanky" Broussard, recalling life on the Fair Grounds backstretch in the mid-1960s. "It was a bowl of macaroni with hot chili on top. They had bookies in all the joints and you could sit there and bet the Double for fifty cents." CHILI-MAC--5,230 Google hits, 794 Google Groups hits CHILLI-MAC--106 Google hits, 95 Google Groups hits "Chili-mac" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). The New Orleans Fair Grounds has a Hall of Fame and twelve years ago I...never mind. I don't have the usual NYU databases here at home. If anyone finds "chili mac" from the 16th century, I'll buy dinner. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Dixon Evening Telegraph - 1/4/1951 ...MACaroni. I was going to write that CHILI-MAC is just CHILI-con sloshed over MAC but.....says the studio, is not as biased as the book. w Eddie Bracken has joined Bing Crosby.....boyed him in St. Louis. But easy goS CHILI-MAC is CHILI con carne sloshed over.....could get a big white bowl of CHILI-con "or CHILI-MAC for 15 cents. You could live high.. Dixon, Illinois Thursday, January 04, 1951 824 k Bradford Era - 1/13/1950 ...T.llow-Quiek" CAMPBELL'S SOUP VENICE MAID CHILI-MAC PILLSBURY PANCAKE FLOUR CLOVERDALE.....SUNSWEET PRUNES BROCTON TOMATO PUREE MONROE CHILI SAUCE WHOLE APRICOTS SALERNO GRAHAM.. Bradford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1950 492 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/29/1939 ...FRENCH FRIED Potatoes 'Hunter's CHILI or CHILI MAC tall per tali fet Tall Cam C. W.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, June 29, 1939 476 k Reno Evening Gazette - 10/20/1939 ...Cimpbelli J dins KETCHUP H.iiu Lg. bollle CHILI-MAC Something different f Ae IT 2 for.....righl out of Betty Crocker's famous Recipe Book I Try we know you will be pleased with.. Reno, Nevada Friday, October 20, 1939 505 k Reno Evening Gazette - 12/2/1941 ...V-8 COCKTAIL 25' 12 os. cans Mexicorn 2 .or CHILI-MAC SET 3 te Heart oi OOe Utah, No. 2.....for the National Football league record book but also practically sewed up his claim.....Steer Beei.. Link Sausage Ib. Mouniroio fm CHILI con 15e ROYAL Beef Tongues Corned y0.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, December 02, 1941 607 k Nevada State Journal - 8/9/1939 ...California Tamales, Raviolis, Spaghetti or CHILI MAC S-oz. Can Clothes Pins Spring.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, August 09, 1939 445 k Daily Register - 2/16/1946 ...Sandwiches Of All Kinds .Mexican CHILI and CHILI MAC GRILL Open Week Days Til 21 Mrs.. Harrisburg, Illinois Saturday, February 16, 1946 830 k Hammond Times - 11/7/1937 ...3 25 3 for Apple Sauce, Gilbert's. 2's CHILI MAC 2 FLOUI7 KNOX-JELL Gelatine 4.. Hammond, Indiana Sunday, November 07, 1937 715 k Daily Northwestern - 7/3/1931 ...EVERY SATURDAY That delicious Mexican dish CHILI MAC. Big Dinners Minnows All Hours.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, July 03, 1931 1033 k Daily Northwestern - 8/7/1931 ...Con Carni lOc, Biggest Regular Dinner 20c. CHILI MAC Free Every Saturday. PUEPPKE'S, 38.....than Oshkosh is officially listed in the book as having a population of The book.....20c, Biggest Hamburger Sandwich 5c, CHILI.....will be registered in an official "guest book." A bulletin board, for all.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, August 07, 1931 1037 k Sheboygan Press - 6/25/1925 ...We will pay in cash to anyone who can make CHILI-MAC than we do. We Prepare On Short.....sleep the moit fascinating and Interesting book you've ever read. free. Write today.....record in England. A SMACking Good Chlli-MAC 15c per bowl Buy a quart for home use at.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Thursday, June 25, 1925 708 k Pg. ?, cols 7-8 ad: A Smacking Good _Chili-Mac_ 15c oer bowl Buy a quart for home use at...60c We will pay $10 in cash to anyone who can make better Chili-Mac than we do. (...) _De Luxe Restaurant_ 512 North Eighth St. Phone 286-J (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL CHILI MAC Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: Chili food product consisting f spaghetti, beans meat sauce with spices, and chees Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 020107 020131 110325 Serial Number 74015564 Filing Date January 2, 1990 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Frass, Melvin R. DBA Mel Frass Co., Inc. UNKNOWN OHIO P.O. Box 236 Delaware OHIO 43015 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 14, 1991 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 5 06:36:14 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:36:14 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >'mo = homo was new to me. it's an example (relatively rare, but not >unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable. >anyone have other attestations for 'mo? HDAS shows this "mo" from 1968 (as a verb also). I heard it around 1968 IIRC. Can an argument be made that the "mo" in ancestral "homo" has secondary stress? [I can't picture "mo" < "homasekshul".] A somewhat comparable case which comes to mind immediately: "groid" < "Negroid" (in HDAS). -- Doug Wilson From nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET Fri Mar 5 06:44:55 2004 From: nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET (Nathaniel Thomas) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:44:55 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <20040305061000.D3F4A3B5BA@frontend2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: In the animated series of "Clerks" (based on the Kevin Smith film) the end of each episode contains a Public Service Announcement. I should note that this was a strange and quickly canceled series because it attempted to achieve some flavor of the excellent film but was broadcast on Disney-owned prime-time ABC. That is difficult when the source material contained enough swear words to be originally rated NC-17. Anyway, in one PSA two children (a brother and sister) are playing inside on a rainy day. Unfortunately, I cannot find a script on-line and do not have the DVD at hand, thus I am forced to attempt to remember haphazardly what the exact context was. I think the sister suggests that they take off their clothes, but the brother says that playing with matches would be more fun. They're prevented by the sudden appearance of one of the characters from the show, who I believe encourages them to do something even worse. Anyway, the brother, I think, says to the sister, again, this is if I remember correctly, "You 'mo!". In the commentary on the DVD the creators of the show mention that ABC didn't like that insult, because they thought it was a shortening of "moron". They convinced ABC it meant something more innocuous and thought it was pretty funny, because ABC would have been extremely annoyed if they had known it was actually short for "homo". Of course, this is all from memory, and there may be a slightly different back-story but "mo" definitely does make an appearance in that PSA. If someone is interested they can check it out, considering only six episodes were made. Nathaniel (nathanielt at airpost.net) On Mar 5, 2004, at 1:09 AM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > 'mo = homo was new to me. it's an example (relatively rare, but not > unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable. > anyone have other attestations for 'mo? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 07:06:00 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:06:00 EST Subject: Micro-Aggression Message-ID: MICRO-AGGRESSION--61 Google hits, 16 Google Groups hits http://andrewsullivan.com/ Friday, March 05, 2004 "MICRO-AGGRESSION": It's a new term to me, but my conversations with college students this past couple of days have convinced me it's real. What's a micro-aggression? It's when you offend somebody for the usual p.c. reasons. You need not mean to offend someone; you may even be trying to flatter them; but if they feel they're offended or hurt in any way, it's a "micro-aggression." An accumulation of "micro-aggressions" can lead to actual aggression. I accidentally committed a "micro-aggression" two days ago when I used the term "Islamo-fascist" to refer to terrorists or unelected despots who use Islam as a cloak for their violence or tyranny. One poor young student was reduced to tears because I used this term. She said she felt attacked because she is a Muslim. I pointed out that the entire point of the term is to distinguish these theocratic thugs from genuine, mainstream Muslims. And she acknowledged that. Nevertheless, I had committed a micro-aggression. If I were on a campus today, I might be subject to discipline. What you have here, perhaps, is a post-modern, post-Christian attempt to resurrect different levels of sin. I committed what Catholics call a "venial sin," a small-bore, not-too-important, micro-sin. But unlike Catholic teaching, which insists that for something to be a sin, it must be consciously intended, with "micro-aggressions," your motives are irrelevant. In pomo heaven, the individual, after all, has no real autonomy, no independent soul, no personal conscience. He's just reflecting the interplay of power-structures. So in the pursuit of progress, we have resurrected the imperatives of Catholic moral teaching and removed moral responsibility at the same time. They call this a step forward. It's the opposite. One recalls Foucault's classic book, "Discipline and Punish." It's all that's left of his philosophy on American campuses. - 12:07:10 AM (GOOGLE) [PDF] TWS Study Guide.Spinning File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our text version of this document. ... In psychiatry, we refer to them as ‘micro-aggression,’” he said. “The things you experience everyday that then add up and take their toll. ... www.theatreworks.org/ images/TWS%20Study%20Guide.Spinning.pdf - Similar pages The Reason Files ... Stop micro-aggression! -- Micro-aggression is explained on a webpage of the Colby Echo, with one Megan Wilson telling it like it is -- ... www.wsse.ca/nucleus2.0/reason.php?catid=5&blogid=2 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages Psychiatric Services -- Allen 50 (3): 424 ... At least among African Americans, some of Pierce's terms and concepts— micro-aggression, micro-traumata, and racism as an environmental pollutant—are abiding ... ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/50/3/424 - Similar pages study guides ... 14. Why would difference between Blacks and Whites appear greater away from the job? 15. What is a micro insult or micro aggression? 16. ... www.instruction.greenriver.edu/kwarner/ AMES100/study%20guides.htm - 36k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: LINK: ... We have to think before pillorying and lynching alleged racists. However, I have read Andrew Chin's description of "micro-aggression." Have you? It is great. ... soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 16, 1998 by etaka at fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp - View Thread (28 articles) Re: LINK: "AA fight slurs...." ... to be afraid of. The concept of micro-aggression may lead some to see racist discrimation everywhere. Eric Takabayashi Fukuyama, Japan ... soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 15, 1998 by etaka at fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp - View Thread (137 articles) Re: Racial differences are minor ... It's telling that you're experience is belittled with theories about micro aggression and mixed up with incidents that may have much less to do with race than ... soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 6, 1998 by Check - View Thread (95 articles) DAY JOB(long) ... There is now, in fact, a considerable literature devoted to chronicling these acts of worker micro-aggression.[30] Office supplies are pilfered, hard-drives ... rec.music.makers.guitar - Jul 14, 1995 by Richard Kucera - View Thread (2 articles) Offensive Mechanisms ... my fondest hope that the day is not far remote when every black child will recognize and defend promptly and adequately against every offensive micro-aggression ... soc.culture.african.american - Apr 22, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread (1 article) Offensive Mechanisms (corrected P-1) ... Hence, the therapist is obliged to pose the idea that offensive mechanisms are usually a micro-aggression, as opposed to a gross, dramatic, obvious macro ... soc.culture.african.american - Apr 22, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread (1 article) Offensive Mechanisms (part one) ... Hence, the therapist is obliged to pose the idea that offensive mechanisms are usuall a micro-aggression, as opposed to a gross, dramatic, obvious macro ... soc.culture.african.american - Apr 21, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread (1 article) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 5 07:13:07 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:13:07 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040305011611.02f145c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2004, at 10:36 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> 'mo = homo was new to me. it's an example (relatively rare, but not >> unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable. >> anyone have other attestations for 'mo? > > HDAS shows this "mo" from 1968 (as a verb also). I heard it around > 1968 IIRC. > > Can an argument be made that the "mo" in ancestral "homo" has secondary > stress? [I can't picture "mo" < "homasekshul".] yes it can. compare "Como" (as in Perry Como) with "yellow". > A somewhat comparable case which comes to mind immediately: "groid" < > "Negroid" (in HDAS). and lots of others ("droid" < "android", "ret" < "cigarette"), but also including some with truly unstressed final syllables ("rents" < "parents"). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 5 08:11:34 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:11:34 -0800 Subject: fansubbing Message-ID: Here's an interesting word a student used in an e-mail about translating anime (Japanese cartoons). Funsubbing is the subtitling of anime by a fan not for profit. This person is called a fansubber. There are ethics and legal issues involved, sketched at http://electron.cs.uwindsor.ca/~utomo/fansubbing.html Benjamin Barrett From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Mar 5 09:05:14 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:05:14 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <200403050610.i24LllPB016699@anderson.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Another possible example of a fairly recent word clipped down to approximately its unstressed final syllable: 'rents for parents. Stephen Goranson From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Mar 5 09:12:58 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:12:58 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <200403050905.i2587qBp011943@anderson.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: Rats! I didn't read all the mail in proper sequence. My apologies.... SG > Another possible example of a fairly recent word clipped down to > approximately > its unstressed final syllable: 'rents for parents. > > Stephen Goranson From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 10:00:39 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:00:39 +0000 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, March 4, 2004 10:49 pm -0500 sagehen wrote: > > James A. Landau writes: >> Yet apparently someone > in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to > Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? [sagehen] > It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe. > Remember The Oak & the Ash: What I've learnt here is that it's always 'down to London'. I live south of London, and you go down to London from here (over the Downs, as a matter of fact). There's more than one song with "down to London town" in it. In practice, people say both. "Down to London" gets 16000 & something hits on Google, while 'up to London" gets about 1000 fewer. But some of these are things like "down to London Bridge Station" or "up to London Road", so hard to tell. Cheers, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 11:13:26 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:13:26 +0000 Subject: up/down to London In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Following up on my last note on this... The info I had re "it's always 'down to London'" was from native Londoners who now live in Brighton (50 miles due south of London). But I just polled my class. The younger ones said it's up or down depending on whether you're coming from north or south, respectively. One exception was a younger student who said she always says "down to London" but that this is a habit because she used to live north of London. (By 'younger' students I mean traditional undergraduate age.) The one student present who was older (in his 50s) said that it's always 'up to London' because the train lines to London are the 'up lines'. Here's a little explanation from : 'Split level Tunnels The famous twin-bore two level tunnels are somewhere north of Bristol, and are like two see-saws side by side, the down line enters its tunnel with the track being at a higher level than the up line and further south it exits at a lower level than the up line, very strange. Apparently it is a result of the doubling of the old B & SWU line where a second tunnel was constructed to suit a new shallower track gradient suitable for the increased coal traffic from South Wales. In theory all lines towards London are called up lines and all lines away from London are called down lines. ' Incidentally, 'town' generally means London. If I say 'I have to be in town next week', it means I'm going to London. If I want to talk about going into Brighton from its outskirts I'd have to say something like "the town centre". I assume that this meaning of 'town' is still in use by people who live within commuting distance of London, but is probably not so used by those further away. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Mar 5 11:29:38 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:29:38 -0000 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078480839@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: > What I've learnt here is that it's always 'down to London'. I live > south of London, and you go down to London from here (over the Downs, > as a matter of fact). There's more than one song with "down to London > town" in it. In practice, people say both. Interesting. I was brought up in the area and worked in Brighton for some years (for the then new local radio station, in the late 1960s). At that time you always went up to London (or up to town, this always being taken to mean London). I'd also agree with Sagehen that in the my day up trains always went to the nearest big town, which for southest England meant London. Has one of these odd linguistic inversions taken place in the interim? The rule doesn't (or didn't) apply to those travelling to London from much further away, say Manchester or Edinburgh. Then you followed the map convention and went down to London. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 11:19:39 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:19:39 +0000 Subject: Scots and/or Irish American dialect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, March 4, 2004 9:37 pm -0600 Patti Kurtz wrote: > Would a Scotsman say 'Ach!" (meaning "Ah!") That sounds more German to > me than Scots. If not, what would he say instead? Scots say it all the time. NODE says: dialect (chiefly Scottish) form of ah. Ach, well, win some lose some. But there's also _och_: Scottish and Irish used to express a range of emotions, typically surprise, regret, or disbelief Och, you're kidding. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Mar 5 11:44:58 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:44:58 -0000 Subject: up/down to London In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nor, and this is where class definitely comes in, is it always 'London.' A browse through middlebrow (and middleclass) popular lit., esp. as written between the wars by such as Agatha Christie and her bestselling peers, London is 'Town'. And one invariably goes 'up' to Town. Or 'pops' or 'runs up to Town'. (Of course, the London = Town equation is much older; at least 18th century). For London's own East-enders, i.e. the traditional working class, the West End is traditionally 'up', as in 'I'm off up West', meaning to Piccadilly Circus, Soho, or environs. Jonathon Green From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Mar 5 12:22:41 2004 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:22:41 -0600 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina Message-ID: It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina > My subject line says it all. > > Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam? > > Sam Clements > From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 13:28:35 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:28:35 +0000 Subject: up/down to London In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, March 5, 2004 11:44 am +0000 Jonathon Green wrote: > > Nor, and this is where class definitely comes in, is it always 'London.' A > browse through middlebrow (and middleclass) popular lit., esp. as written > between the wars by such as Agatha Christie and her bestselling peers, > London is 'Town'. And one invariably goes 'up' to Town. Or 'pops' or 'runs > up to Town'. (Of course, the London = Town equation is much older; at > least 18th century). For London's own East-enders, i.e. the traditional > working class, the West End is traditionally 'up', as in 'I'm off up > West', meaning to Piccadilly Circus, Soho, or environs. Aha. So I'm now having the suspicion that my earlier claim that it's always "down to London" may have been my mistaking a conversation about "town" for one about London". Perhaps it's usually "up to London" but "down to town". There are 1180 "down to town"s versus 563 "up to town"s on google.co.uk (searching only UK sites), but it's clear that not all those towns are London. There are only 39 "down to London town", mostly lyrics. Now, another Londoner who's moved to Brighton has just been in my office and insisted it's "down to London" from every direction. So make of this what you will! Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 14:51:01 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:51:01 EST Subject: origin of "muggle" Message-ID: from an interview with Joanne "J. K." Rowling, on the Web at URL http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml I was looking for a word that suggested both foolishness and loveability. The word 'mug' came to mind, for somebody gullible, and then I softened it. I think 'muggle' sounds quite cuddly. I didn't know that the word 'muggle' had been used as drug slang at that point... ah well. - Jim Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 5 15:24:59 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:24:59 -0500 Subject: Up/down to London Message-ID: Lynne Murphy writes: "The one student present who was older (in his 50s) said that it's always 'up to London' because the train lines to London are the 'up lines'." ~~~~~~~ Age may account for my impression, since I haven't been back to England for over thirty years. A. Murie From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 15:10:48 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:10:48 +0000 Subject: origin of "muggle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, March 5, 2004 9:51 am -0500 "James A. Landau" wrote: > from an interview with Joanne "J. K." Rowling, on the Web at URL > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml > > > I was looking for a word that suggested both foolishness and loveability. > The word 'mug' came to mind, for somebody gullible, and then I softened > it. I think 'muggle' sounds quite cuddly. I didn't know that the word > 'muggle' had been used as drug slang at that point... ah well. > I've seen American fan sites that have insisted that 'muggle' is British slang for 'loser'. Just found a case of this at: , which says: "Rowling's books use British slang extensively, and "muggle" has meant "complete loser" since the 19th century." This point has been made, apparently, to protect Rowling against a claim of plagiarism (and has hence been repeated on fan sites). But I've never heard any such thing in the UK, it's not in Partridge's (except as a marijuana term, muggles) and OED, which has four entries for _muggle_ has none that mean 'loser' (or anything like it) and Rowling's 'non-magical' sense (given there as _Muggle_) is attributed first to Rowling. So, how (if indeed it did) that story held up in court I don't know. I've seen the muggle=loser claim many times (always from Americans), but never seen any citations backing it up. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 5 15:22:34 2004 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:22:34 -0500 Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate) Message-ID: On the topic of 'up' and 'down' in directions, various people have posted: > >Yet apparently someone >in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to >Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? > > >One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery >lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town >drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"?< >~~~~~~~~ >It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe. >Remember The Oak & the Ash: > >A north country lass >Up to London has strayed, >Although with her nature >It did not agree......? > >The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out) >of University. More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until it reached some point where its designation would change and it would become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be when I researched it a few years ago. -- Doug Wilson RAILWAYS I can confirm that it's always 'up' to London and 'down' away from London. As in India, that's actually official usage on the railways (at least, it was when we had one national railway system, but I imagine the practice has percolated to the local companies that we have now, since privatisation). Also as in India, there are conventions as to how to refer to trains that don't begin or end their journeys in London; I believe it's simply to do with which terminus is in a bigger place, or more railway-significant, so cross-country trains probably go 'up' to Birmingham, for example; but that bit's just speculation. UNIVERSITIES On the other point, it's true that Rev Spooner's missing student had probably been 'sent down', ie kicked out of the University, but, as far as I'm aware, the use of 'sending down' for being kicked out and of 'going up' for 'going to the University for the first time' or 'going back after a period of absence' is current only in Oxford and Cambridge. (You also 'go down' at the end of term.) As in going 'up' to London, you can 'go up' to Oxbridge no matter where you were to start with, and you're always sent 'down', no matter where you're going. Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford; I think it would probably be thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than Oxbridge to use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say 'expel' and 'go to University'. Could someone at another British University comment? Also, interestingly, New College itself asserts that Spooner 'almost certainly never uttered a Spoonerism, but equally certainly had a number of curious verbal traits': http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 15:15:05 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:15:05 +0000 Subject: origin of muggle Message-ID: Following up on my last post (as I often do, as I hit 'send' too soon), 'mug' is documented as meaning 'loser' in UK English--but that should be different from 'muggle' in a plagiarism case, I'd think. Incidentally, is it now the case on ADS-L that one does not receive one's own posts to the list? I keep waiting for mine to be posted, but then realise they must've been when I start reading replies to them. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 15:40:11 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:40:11 EST Subject: note concerning Asshole buddies:speculative etymology Message-ID: A quick Google check for , , , and turned up many interesting hits (e.g., " 'Les chiens qui ont la queue coupée n'ont pas peur de faire voir leur cul.' --Proverbe Savoyarde. Envoyer a un ami?"), but nothing remotely related to "asshole buddies." One might therefore conclude that the English expression is not semantically extremely natural. In a message dated 2/8/04 2:59:53 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: Well, that wasn't my point. Since "buddy" comes from Brit. dial. "butty," and since its connection to "butt" has been claimed, I was just speculating that the connection between "asshole" and "buddy" might not be so far off (anatomically speaking, that is). dInIs From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Mar 5 15:49:38 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:49:38 -0000 Subject: origin of "muggle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I've seen American fan sites that have insisted that 'muggle' is British > slang for 'loser'. Just found a case of this at: > , which says: > "Rowling's books use British slang extensively, and "muggle" has meant > "complete loser" since the 19th century." > [...] > But I've never heard any such thing in the UK Me neither. Muggle is not now, definitely, and never has been, to my knowledge, a term for 'loser' in UK slang. One must assume that those who make this claim, for whatever reason, are confusing it with 'mug', which has meant a dupe or fool, usually from a criminal's viewpoint, from at least 1821 (when it appears in Jon Bee's _Real Life in London_). The first appearance of 'muggle' or more usually 'muggles' in the slang lexicon is, as Lynne Murphy suggests, in the context of marijuana (a Louis Armstrong title of 1928; it was slightly preceded by 'mugglehead', a marijuana smoker, listed in 1926), and as such was never in any case a very widespread UK term. Rowling can be presumed to be honest when she claims never to have encountered it. Jonathon Green From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 16:11:24 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:11:24 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/04 1:10:15 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > from the march 2004 issue of GENRE, the "advice + consent" column by > john a. vlahides, p. 78 (answer to a letter from a gay guy): > >    Discovering that you're gay may initially seem like a curse.  But > hang in there, keep on asking the hard questions, and you may find that > turning out a 'mo is the best thing that ever happened to you. > > 'mo = homo was new to me.  it's an example (relatively rare, but not > unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable. > anyone have other attestations for 'mo? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Mar 5 16:13:39 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:13:39 -0500 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina Message-ID: I recall a passage from a book by H. Allen Smith, I assume one of his earliest -- Life in a Putty Knife Factory (1943) or Low Man on a Totem-Pole (1944) or Lost in the Horse Latitudes (1944). (Seems to me there was another, from '41 or 42, but I forget the title.) Smith had been a NYC newspaperman in the '30s, specializing in celebrities and eccentrics. He tells a story of attending a press conference with a famous Chinese-American actress, presumably Anna May Wong, in the course of which she answers an unasked question by saying "No, it isn't". I don't recall haw he alludes to the unspoken antecedent of "it". I own a couple of his books, incl. Low Man but not Horse Latitudes, and can check them this weekend. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: paulzjoh Date: Friday, March 5, 2004 7:22 am Subject: Re: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina > It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:48 PM > Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina > > > > My subject line says it all. > > > > Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam? > > > > Sam Clements > > > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 16:23:46 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:23:46 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20origin=20of=20slur-?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-horizontal=20Oriental=20vagina?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/04 7:19:41 AM, paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM writes: > It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's > Me too--well, not "told to me as gospel," but it was alluded to by family members who had served in the navy in the eastern Pacific in World War II, mostly in joking contexts. From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Fri Mar 5 16:29:23 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:29:23 +0000 Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, March 5, 2004 10:22 am -0500 Damien Hall wrote: > UNIVERSITIES > > Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford; I think it would probably be > thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than > Oxbridge to use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say > 'expel' and 'go to University'. Could someone at another British > University comment? Also, interestingly, New College itself asserts that > Spooner 'almost certainly never uttered a Spoonerism, but equally > certainly had a number of curious verbal traits': > http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html I can confirm that send down and go/come up are limited to Oxbridge. (Just asked a couple of colleagues to confirm). Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 18:01:42 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:01:42 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20chopped=20liver--consciou?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?sness-raising=20is=20in=20order?= Message-ID: I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to chopped liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm not one of them), and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver. So I guess there may be reasons why people would think of chopped liver as relatively inconsequential, especially as compared to the importance and sensitivity of a human being. But the degree of respect is surely in the mind of the speaker. I also say, "What am I, a potted plant?" And I love potted plants. In a message dated 2/9/04 9:17:57 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > At 8:02 PM -0500 2/9/04, Sam Clements wrote: > >Sheesh!  Can't Barry get ANY respect around here?  What is he, chopped > liver?! ... > >     I've never understood the derogatory reference to chopped liver in > the phrase (with slight variants) "What am I, chopped liver?"  Well > prepared chopped liver is always tasty, and very well prepared > chopped liver is delicious, a culinary delight. > >     Why this lack of respect for chopped liver? > > Gerald Cohen > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 5 18:24:34 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:24:34 -0500 Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina In-Reply-To: <16d957316d93d5.16d93d516d9573@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: >I recall a passage from a book by H. Allen Smith, I assume one of his >earliest -- Life in a Putty Knife Factory (1943) or Low Man on a >Totem-Pole (1944) or Lost in the Horse Latitudes (1944). (Seems to me >there was another, from '41 or 42, but I forget the title.) Smith had >been a NYC newspaperman in the '30s, specializing in celebrities and >eccentrics. He tells a story of attending a press conference with a >famous Chinese-American actress, presumably Anna May Wong, in the course >of which she answers an unasked question by saying "No, it isn't". I >don't recall haw he alludes to the unspoken antecedent of "it". > >I own a couple of his books, incl. Low Man but not Horse Latitudes, and >can check them this weekend. > >GAT ~~~~~~~ Wasn't /Sex Life of the Date Palm/ also one of H. Allen Smith's? A. Murie From orinkh at CARR.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:17:12 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:17:12 -0500 Subject: note concerning Asshole buddies:speculative etymology Message-ID: >A quick Google check for , , e> >, and turned up many interesting hits (e.g., " 'Les chiens qui= >=20 >ont la queue coup=E9e n'ont pas peur de faire voir leur cul.' --Proverbe=20 >Savoyarde. Envoyer a un ami?"), but nothing remotely related to "asshole bud= >dies."=20 >One might therefore conclude that the English expression is not semantically= >=20 >extremely natural. If one may be given the indulgence to free-associate (since it's Friday afternoon): this reminds me of the Moroccan Arabic proverb, "zb l-maarifa ke-wesaa l-kur" which might be politely translated as "you can only screw your friends" and literally (using some circumspect rather than the vulgar words in the original) as "it's the penis of someone familiar that stretches out the rectum." Orin Hargraves From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 5 18:25:21 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:25:21 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_chopped_liver--consciousness-rais?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ing_is_in_order?= In-Reply-To: <191.2603d55c.2d7a1a86@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2004, at 10:01 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to > chopped > liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm > not one > of them)... nor am i. > , and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does > it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver. > > So I guess there may be reasons why people would think of chopped > liver as > relatively inconsequential, especially as compared to the importance > and > sensitivity of a human being... my reading of this formula has always been that chopped liver is inferior to the really good stuff, namely foie gras. i have absolutely no evidence that the everyday/elegant comparison is the actual source of the formula, however. we all know that interpretations of somewhat opaque formulas can be idiosyncratic and quite distant from historical sources. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 5 18:34:14 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:34:14 EST Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20chopped=20liver--consciousness-rais=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?ing=20is=20in=20order?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/04 1:25:55 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > my reading of this formula has always been that chopped liver is > inferior to the really good stuff, namely foie gras.  i have absolutely > no evidence that the everyday/elegant comparison is the actual source > of the formula, however. > > we all know that interpretations of somewhat opaque formulas can be > idiosyncratic and quite distant from historical sources. > Don't they come from two quite different culinary traditions? I don't think of foie gras as something I'd get in a Jewish deli, nor do I think of chopped liver as especially French (would not expect to find FOIE HACHE´ on the menu of a French restaurant). So for me, Arnold's "idiosyncratic" response would never have emerged. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 5 19:53:29 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:53:29 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <11b.2ee5ae76.2d7a00ac@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:11 AM -0500 3/5/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > >It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused >with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there >is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days. If I didn't know better, I'd think I was getting older. (I didn't check him on (ho)mo, which however really does put a new spin on sportscasters' references to "the big mo.") larry horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 5 20:23:34 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:23:34 -0500 Subject: chopped liver--consciou sness-raising is in order In-Reply-To: <191.2603d55c.2d7a1a86@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:01 PM -0500 3/5/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to chopped >liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm not one >of them), and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does >it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver. not with *chopped* liver, however. that would have made for a very different textural and textual experience for young Alex. larry horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 5 20:32:46 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:32:46 -0500 Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078504163@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: >--On Friday, March 5, 2004 10:22 am -0500 Damien Hall > wrote: > >>UNIVERSITIES >> >>Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford; I think it would probably be >>thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than >>Oxbridge to use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say >>'expel' and 'go to University'. Could someone at another British >>University comment? Also, interestingly, New College itself asserts that >>Spooner 'almost certainly never uttered a Spoonerism, but equally >>certainly had a number of curious verbal traits': >>http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html > > If that's true, where did his reputation for doing so--strong enough for him to serve as the eponym for the practice--originate, I wonder? Did someone ELSE accuse his students of having tasted the whole worm, or go around talking reverently about the queer old dean? larry horn From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 01:05:10 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:05:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Wellerism" In-Reply-To: <16d957316d93d5.16d93d516d9573@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Wellerism (OED 1839) [1838 _New-York Mirror_ 28 July 38 (American Periodical Series) (heading) Sam Wellerisms.] 1838 _Poughkeepsie Casket_ 20 Oct. 111 (American Periodical Series) (heading) Wellerisms. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 6 01:13:55 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:13:55 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate > slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to > generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate > students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his > father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days... in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent. but my experience of 'za goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently. jespersen says that clipping preserves the first, the last, or the main-stressed syllable (that is, a syllable in one of the three most perceptually salient positions). i think he also says that it especially favors a first or last syllable with stress. i'm not sure if he explicitly says that suffixes with (secondary) stress, like english -ate and -ize, don't count. the actual restrictions and disfavorings are pretty complex, as larry could undoubtedly explain to us in some detail. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Mar 6 02:00:07 2004 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:00:07 -0600 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Got that wrong. It's downwind, not downstream. Herb Another use of down that has always struck me as uniquely local is Maine's "down east", NE in direction but downstream by ocean current. Herb New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in California. There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State. Hence neither region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate." An interesting piece of nomenclature: Absecon Island is a long, thin, north-south barrier island. From north to south Absecon Island is divided into Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport. The southern portion of the island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach". There does not seem to be a corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City. I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines in World War II, and found something interesting. The decypherment was done at Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London. Yet apparently someone in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to Bletchley. Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please? One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery lectures. You have tasted an entire worm. You will leave on the next town drain." What is a "down train"? Is there a corresponding "up train"? - James A. Landau From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 6 02:45:48 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:45:48 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20chopped=20liver--co?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nsciou=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=A0=20sness-?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?raising=20is=20in=20order?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/5/04 3:24:01 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > not with *chopped* liver, however.  that would have made for a very > different textural and textual experience for young Alex. > maybe not for a teenager -- chopped, raw, pureed -- does it really make a difference? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 6 03:19:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:19:52 EST Subject: "Drunken Sailors" and the economy (1898) Message-ID: _Borrowing Like Drunken Sailors_ --editorial, NEW YORK POST, 5 March 2004, pg. 30, col. 1. DRUNKEN SAILORS--8,850 Google hits, 4,560 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN SAILOR--40,800 Google hits, 9,460 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN SAILOR + PRESIDENT + BUSH--4,710 Google hits, 471 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN SAILORS + PRESIDENT + BUSH--2,120 Google hits, 369 Google Groups hits Why am I seeing all these economic comparisons to drunken sailors lately? People don't spend like "Paris Hilton," buying $5,000 handbags. No, they spend like "drunken sailors." Do drunken sailors really spend that much? What do they buy--another cheap beer? $20 or so? Maybe some grub? How much does grub go for? For weeks now, blogger Andrew Sullivan has accused President Bush of spending like a drunken sailor. There are many Google "sailor spending" hits. I don't know if NYU's Literature Online is working again. I'd check Early English Books Online and Eighteenth Century Collections Online. Drunken sailors go way back. (GOOGLE) http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2003/02/04/budget/index_np.html Drunken sailor economics Bush's bloated budget will likely put the U.S. over $1 trillion in debt. But criticize it, and the White House calls you soft on terror.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - By Jake Tapper Feb. 4, 2003 CNN.com - McCain: Congress spending money 'like a drunken sailor' ... John McCain Sunday berated fellow lawmakers for spending money like a drunken sailor and said President Bush was also to blame for pushing the nation toward ... www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/ 11/30/mccain.bashes.bush.ap/ - 41k - Mar 4, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages Congress Spending Money Like 'Drunken Sailor' ... WASHINGTON — Congress is throwing away astonishing amounts, "spending money like a drunken sailor," and President Bush shares the blame because he is not ... www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ 2003/11/30/184005.shtml - 29k - Cached - Similar pages My Way News ... WASHINGTON (AP) - Congress is throwing away astonishing amounts, "spending money like a drunken sailor," and President Bush shares the blame because he is not ... apnews.myway.com/article/20031130/D7V56CGG0.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Search for "like a drunken sailor" and "like drunken sailors") Clearfield Progress - 6/22/1944 ...thAt our RepresentAtives spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor, however. for out of even A.....thus distributed. InevitAbly it will drop LIKE A plummet when wAr production is cut oft.....DRUNKEN sAilor would hAng on to one of those zeroes.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 22, 1944 775 k Clearfield Progress - 5/20/1939 ...thAt our RepresentAtives spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor, for out of even A DRUNKEN.....yeArs in the NAvy Are relAted in A book both frAnk And rich in Anecdote, "SeA.....FROM PAGE 1) ing until June 1. ThAt seems LIKE u long time to All of them. AlreAdy they.....RussiA bAck in the eAstern provinces. LIKE GermAny, she hAs plAnned her dominAtion.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 20, 1939 690 k Helena Independent - 11/5/1940 ...An AdministrAtion thAt spends money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. District .A ttorney ThomAs E.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, November 05, 1940 695 k Bismarck Tribune - 11/5/1940 ...An AdministrAtion thAt spends money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor." Mrs. ForAn chA rged cruelty.....PR WIN NEW JAmes A. PArley sAid "it looks LIKE A DemocrAtic vie President Roosevelt's.....Are cAlcite iften foundin cAves. PinnAcle-LIKE mA sses projecting upwArd from the floor.....All he sAid, .the White House A mAn, who, LIKE Winston Churchill, cAn put into words.. Bismarck, North Dakota Tuesday, November 05, 1940 842 k Gettysburg Times - 11/5/1940 ...thAt Tspends moriey LIKE" A DRUNKEN sAilor." Willkie Votes i ijWendell L.....bAck is HArold HAmberg, who hAs everything LIKE All good hAmburgers. NeAr A nd fAr Only.....the TulsA university footbAllers, who look LIKE the goods. Tod Ay's ffuesl stAr JAck.....We hAve in the White House A mAn., who, LIKE Winston Churchill, cAn put into words.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 05, 1940 884 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/1/1937 ...I disLIKE. "Thus I will spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor on my home, for I love it.....of my methods ol economy. When I trAvel I LIKE to trAvel on the best ships, stop At de.....for. I'll be extrAvAgAnt About the things I LIKE, A lmost miserly About those.....oltllmes on things I'll never reAlly use. I LIKE the things I cAn buy in A stAtionery.. Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, September 01, 1937 856 k Marion Daily Star - 7/21/1886 ...of A womAn. She rAved And swore LIKE, A DRUNKEN sAilor. And WhAt did I think? My.....01 A vAnished heArt's desire. ThAi once LIKE A beAutiful pAlAce itood to defy the.....eyes of impenetrAble blue, cheeks Ad lips LIKE roses, And A weAlth of golden rAglets.....more success thAn when his portly, fArmer-LIKE form wAs seen shAdowing the rooms of the.. Marion, Ohio Wednesday, July 21, 1886 1252 k Reno Evening Gazette - 5/21/1914 ...of the Government, is spending money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor until its wA steful.....of An income eAch yeAr. Towns sprung t'ip LIKE mushrooms on the prA iries And people.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, May 21, 1914 940 k Washington Post - 11/27/1910 ...sAid Mr. Selden wAs spending money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. But Mr. Selden's fAith in his.....when his toes Are .trAmpled ho bristles LIKE An old wArrior, And with him It's wAr to.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, November 27, 1910 1084 k Evening News - 11/26/1912 ...which mAkes the stAte j spend money LIKE A. DRUNKEN sAilor I does his shore And if his j.....wil insist thAt Of being exchAnglory text-book used in the public i Ally if you woiil.....of clothing on the innrket. do whore you LIKE; you'll never soo bettor clothes thAn.....Co. ARTHTU l.EKSKR i. H. Korr, Rep. text book Adoption thAt is required by lAw is.. Ada, Oklahoma Tuesday, November 26, 1912 465 k New Oxford Item - 7/1/1898 ...trAining. Such fAmiliAr phrAses As "LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor" And "Spending monej LIKE A.....young AmericAns, who hAve displAced A LIKE number of irresponsible foreigners.....is more of A mechAnic And A soldier thAn A sAilor pure And simple. But this is not All.....just At food As the Ivory they ARE NOT, but LIKE All counterfeits, lAck the peculiAr And.. New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, July 01, 1898 580 k Stevens Point Daily Journal - 7/25/1899 ...once And generAlly spending money j LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. ficflin JournAl HArry DAvis.....the lAst (lAv And no one should miss n. c A DRUNKEN SAilor. The council of Stevens Point.. Stevens Point, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 25, 1899 711 k (WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE) "Who builds his hope in air of your fair looks, Lives like a drunken sailor on a mast." _Richard III_. From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 6 03:31:19 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:31:19 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <899F6972-6F0B-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent. but my experience of 'za >goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently. I've heard "'za" since ca. 1966, "'rents" never (in real-life use). "Parents" > "'rents" seems odd, and it may well be that the actual evolution was "parental units" > "'rental units" (and/or "parentals") > "'rents" or so. Jonathon Green's dictionary entry suggests something like this. [Another conceivable origin with stress would be "in loco parentis", which expression was bandied about some during student unrest in the 1960's.] "'Za" remains as ostensibly reflecting a really really unstressed syllable. Are there any other good clear examples like this? I think it might be arguable that "'za" doesn't really reflect any spoken syllable, but rather is taken directly from the orthography. The stressed version of the last syllable of "pizza" would be /sa/ or maybe /tsa/, I would think. "'Za" is always /za/ AFAIK ... or are there other pronunciations? -- Doug Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 6 03:46:12 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:46:12 -0500 Subject: "Drunken Sailors" and the economy (1898) Message-ID: Still bugged about that 400- year antedating, eh? SC From: (WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE) "Who builds his hope in air of your fair looks, Lives like a drunken sailor on a mast." _Richard III_. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 6 03:49:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:49:19 EST Subject: Light turns green, car behind you honks (1948, 1950) Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07ONLANGUAGE.html Attaboy, Attosecond! By WILLIAM SAFIRE Published: March 7, 2004 Do you have a minute?'' That's what we used to say when the person we were accosting was in a rush. That notion of a very short time was reduced, not long ago, by the split second, which was defined by New York Traffic Commissioner T.T. Wiley in 1950 as ''the time between the light turning green and the guy behind you honking.'' T. T. Wiley didn't coin this in 1950. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Independent Record - 1/6/1948 ...interval it lakes, after tne traffic LIGHT TURNS GREEN, for some damn fool behma you to.....lets her defenses down is better than born HONKING, Norman Vincent 'and becom6S Involved.....might Of a new generation, the children: of LIGHT. Madison Square Garden in aganda, but a.....Japan was forced into war. -Composer Johnny GREEN will tree education. It is either, make.. Helena, Montana Tuesday, January 06, 1948 639 k Pg. 4, col. 1: It is said that the smallest measurable unit of time is the interval it takes, after the traffic light turns green, for some damn fool behind you to honk his horn. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 04:23:10 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:23:10 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040305203708.02f0a840@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent. but my experience of 'za >>goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently. > >I've heard "'za" since ca. 1966, "'rents" never (in real-life use). > >"Parents" > "'rents" seems odd, and it may well be that the actual >evolution was "parental units" > "'rental units" (and/or "parentals") > >"'rents" or so. Jonathon Green's dictionary entry suggests something like >this. [Another conceivable origin with stress would be "in loco parentis", >which expression was bandied about some during student unrest in the 1960's.] > >"'Za" remains as ostensibly reflecting a really really unstressed syllable. >Are there any other good clear examples like this? > >I think it might be arguable that "'za" doesn't really reflect any spoken >syllable, but rather is taken directly from the orthography. The stressed >version of the last syllable of "pizza" would be /sa/ or maybe /tsa/, I >would think. "'Za" is always /za/ AFAIK ... or are there other pronunciations? > I tend to agree, although I'm just speculating here. Some other partially unstressed remnants I've been thinking about are those used for sports team hypocoristics, but they represent secondarily stressed rather than truly unstressed cases: the 'Lanche (for the Colorado Avalanche hockey team, a.k.a. the Avs), the 'Canes (for the Hurricanes), the 'Noles (for the Seminoles), etc. There's also the Wolves (for the Minnesota Timberwolves, a.k.a. T-Wolves), but that's a bit different, since it's really a compound reducing to its head, and "wolves" is definitely stressed to begin with, albeit secondarily; cf. the 'Boys and the 'Skins, from Dallas and DC respectively. I can't think of bisyllabic team names with initial stress where the second syllable is retained, once we eliminate compounds and modifier-head constructions (e.g. "the Sox"); what doesn't occur is e.g. the 'Kees of NY, the 'Kers of L.A.--even though the latter is a nice reanalysis in the making. larry horn From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 6 04:28:38 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:28:38 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: >> >I tend to agree, although I'm just speculating here. Some other >partially unstressed remnants I've been thinking about are those used >for sports team hypocoristics, but they represent secondarily >stressed rather than truly unstressed cases: the 'Lanche (for the >Colorado Avalanche hockey team, a.k.a. the Avs), the 'Canes (for the >Hurricanes), the 'Noles (for the Seminoles), etc. There's also the >Wolves (for the Minnesota Timberwolves, a.k.a. T-Wolves), but that's >a bit different, since it's really a compound reducing to its head, >and "wolves" is definitely stressed to begin with, albeit >secondarily; cf. the 'Boys and the 'Skins, from Dallas and DC >respectively. I can't think of bisyllabic team names with initial >stress where the second syllable is retained, once we eliminate >compounds and modifier-head constructions (e.g. "the Sox"); what >doesn't occur is e.g. the 'Kees of NY, the 'Kers of L.A.--even though >the latter is a nice reanalysis in the making. I'm not sure what actual pronunciation underlies the shortening of Coyotes to 'Yotes, but that somehow fits at least with 'Lanche and 'Canes. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From pds at VISI.COM Sat Mar 6 06:20:14 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:20:14 -0600 Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo) Message-ID: At 3/5/2004 02:53 PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate >slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to >generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate >students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his >father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days. From my undergraduate days: 'za 'rents 'ner = dinner 'tail = cocktail 'hue = Goodhue (dormitory) and while not as common as "libe" 'bary = library All with the stressed syllable clipped. These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed to freshmen (in 1966 anyway). Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at least 20 mimeographed pages. Many of the usages had died out by the time I got there, (I recall "hum" = all-purpose, often euphemistic, verb. "They were out there humming on the lawn." "Let's hum a za." Beautiful, but not used in my time.) but I can swear that the above were all in active use 1966-1970. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From pds at VISI.COM Sat Mar 6 06:43:09 2004 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:43:09 -0600 Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo) In-Reply-To: <20040306062323.2176653EA@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Good heavens! I found it on-line: http://www.corneli.us/CarletonClassof69/memorabilia/loosely.pdf Beware. It takes up 4MB. At 3/6/2004 12:20 AM -0600, Tom Kysilko wrote: > These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed >to freshmen (in 1966 anyway). Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at >least 20 mimeographed pages. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sat Mar 6 07:17:30 2004 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:17:30 +1000 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652lgA002644@mailhub2.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: Re Arnold Zwicky's call for examples of 'mo (clip to final unstressed syllable): I don't have this one, but I do have quite a few more in my data of Australian clippings: cockroach > roach (more US; usually cockie in Aus) Jumpinpin > The Pin (a place in Queensland) Wollongong > The Gong (a city) mushrom > shroom Quaalude > lude Wallerawang Power station > Wang Footscray > Scray (suburb of Melbourne) chrysanthemum > mum (more US: Aus = chrissie) Mandrax > trax / trex also omnibus > bus Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 6 07:40:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:40:51 EST Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha Message-ID: FOOD OT: MARTHA I couldn't believe it. All for a coverup of a minor stock trade. TWENTY YEARS IN JAIL? Was Martha Stewart a threat to attack people on the street with muffin recipes? She couldn't pay a large fine and do community service--some cooking or cleaning? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "MULE KICKING" CHILI www.theonion.com Texan Feels Emotionally Empty After Chili Cook-off EL PASO, TX—Native Texan and chili chef Jerry Gerber, 41, said he has been suffering a palpable sense of melancholy ever since the 17th Annual Five-Alarm Chili Cook-Off on Feb. 28 ended. "Spend all year gittin' together the hottest, rootin'-tootinest, mule-kickinest chili this side of the Rio Grande, and whadya git fer yer troubles?" Gerber said Tuesday. "Shucks, you eat it and then you're all hat and no horse." In lieu of seeking professional help, Gerber said he plans to force himself back into the saddle by beginning work on his entry for the Texas Beef Council Steak-A-Thon in June. "Mule-kicking" chili? We often "add kick" to a dish or a drink, making it hotter or stronger. But a mule kick? I took a look at "mule kick" in relation to "chili." There are a few hits, but not too many. (GOOGLE) INFERNO - Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from ... ... has a distinct sweet pepper taste with an after burn that 'kicks like a mule'!. ... CHERRY BOMB] [ETHIOPIAN THUNDER] [FRENCH WAX] [FRESNO CHILI] [GOLDEN HABANERO ... www.chillifarm.com/chilli_pepper_seeds/INFERNO.asp - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from seeds> > ... FRESNO CHILI The Fresno Chilli is a Jalapeno style chilli that reaches maturity ... has a distinct sweet pepper taste with an after burn that 'kicks like a mule'!. ... www.chillifarm.com/chilli_store/seeds.asp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages Better Homes & Gardens: A root to taste.(horseradish)(includes ... ... Feder. It may be called horseradish, but it has a kick like a mule. Used for ... it becomes. CHILI-RUBBED CHICKEN WITH HORSERADISH. The ... www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1041/ n4_v74/18114199/p1/article.jhtml - 13k - Cached - Similar pages GOLDEN HABANERO - Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants ... The Great Chilli Farm - buy chili seeds, hot peppers, many chilli recipes, read about growing chillies, chile ... It has a fruity flavour with a kick like a mule. ... www.chillifarm.com/chilli_pepper_seeds/ GOLDEN_HABANERO.asp - 13k - Cached - Similar pages Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from seeds> > ... FRESNO CHILI The Fresno Chilli is a Jalapeno style chilli that reaches > maturity in > approximately 89 days after ... It has a fruity flavour with a kick like a > mule. ... > www.chillifarm.com/chilli_store/seeds.asp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages Sorley Splatting -Danny Baker's Internet Treehouse Message Board ... ... Message Jack Chili by any chance? IP: Logged. ... EKU40'? Forty percent proof and a kick like a mule being elbowed in the knackersack by Roy Keane? ... www.mj0110199.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ Forum1/r-t/008008.html - 39k - Cached - Similar pages eye - Drinks - 07.16.98 ... Jack Daniels Tennessee Sour Mash ($23.75) has a sweet corn flavor and a kick like a mule. ... or milk, pour over ice cream or add to enhance a bowl of chili. ... www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_07.16.98/plus/drinks.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages Tahiti Joe's Hot Sauce - Pepper Sauce, Salsa and Hot Sauces made ... ... SO SAVE YOUR CHILE ASS AND DOWN A BOTTLE OF BUTT PLUG ... champ of the teriyaki world because it can kick your ass ... FUEL THE MULE HOT SAUCE In the desert, you can't ... www.tahitijoeshotsauces.com/wildcatalog.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages PDF] Garlic Reduces Cancer Cells Meet Captain Joe... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our text version of this document. ... special flavor, smoky sweet but with a West Texas mule's kick. ... Totally Chile Pepper Cookbook..... 4.95 50 chili flavored recipes ... www.4garlic.com/newsltrs/gp_07.pdf - Similar pages 'Orphans Wanted' The Pony Express ... but he hadn't. It was some of that 'mule kick' whiskey that ... www.worldandilibrary.com/public/ 2004/january/mtpub2.asp - 41k - Cached - Similar pages A Bajan Occasion ... classy and for a moment I worried about my garish chile pepper tie ... pleasant taste fool you," warns Anne Marie, "it carries the kick of a mule!" She continues ... www.fiery-foods.com/dave/bajan.asp - 45k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Women celebrate Festival of Brigit ... This is vodka brewed from chili peppers ... as it must sound (it's quite nice actually, straight shots from a bottle kept in the freezer), but it kicks like a mule. ... alt.tasteless - Jan 21, 1998 by Nathan J Nagel - View Thread (30 articles) Re: A poll of no interest unless you want to participate ... That hottest of all chilis, that looks sweet and dainty but kicks like a mule? habanera chili = yummy ***** Pete Dumont. ... novell.community.chat - Jan 29, 2001 by Felton Green \(SysOp\) - View Thread (245 articles) From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Sat Mar 6 15:16:22 2004 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:16:22 -0500 Subject: Remorse Message-ID: Just now on MSNBC, Rosiland Jordan, an NBC White House reporter, said that Pres. Bush expressed remorse at the mosque bombings in Iraq. Has the meaning of "remorse" been changing, or did she just slip? One only expresses remorse of one's own acts that one regrets. She wasn't saying that Bush was claiming responsibility for the bombings, and I would have expected a noun like "sorrow". "Compassion" or "pity" is an archaic sense. Is it coming back or was this just odd? Herb From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Sat Mar 6 15:37:13 2004 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:37:13 -0600 Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha In-Reply-To: <20040306074102.KOTI26459.sccmgwc02.mchsi.com@sccmgwc02.asp.att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:41 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha > "Mule-kicking" chili? > We often "add kick" to a dish or a drink, making it hotter or stronger. > But a mule kick? I took a look at "mule kick" in relation to "chili." There > are a few hits, but not too many. Isn't the author simply euphemizing "ass-kicking" ? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.610 / Virus Database: 390 - Release Date: 3/3/2004 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 6 15:38:04 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:38:04 -0500 Subject: fansubbing In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: My son is an enthusiastic anime fan, and I've known about fansubbing for years. I used the nominal, meaning 'a fansubbed anime', in a song in June of 1999 (http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filks/Fanboy.html). -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 6 15:46:19 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:46:19 -0500 Subject: getting your own postings In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Lynne asks: >>> Incidentally, is it now the case on ADS-L that one does not receive one's own posts to the list? I keep waiting for mine to be posted, but then realise they must've been when I start reading replies to them. <<< >From the email address of your subscription, send a message to the listserver (LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU) saying SET ADS-L REPRO I extracted this info from the reference card that comes when you subscribe to the list: SET listname options Alter your subscription options: REPro/NOREPro -> Copy of your own postings? You can get the reference card with the message: LISTSERV REFCARD -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 6 15:48:15 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: origin of "muggle" In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Lynne asks straight-faced: >>> So, how (if indeed it did) that story held up in court I don't know. I've seen the muggle=loser claim many times (always from Americans), but never seen any citations backing it up. <<< Presumably because the courts didn't know how to judge linguistic evidence and either didn't think to ask or didn't think they needed to. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 6 16:14:46 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:14:46 -0500 Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040306003211.01b2b4b0@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: >Good heavens! I found it on-line: >http://www.corneli.us/CarletonClassof69/memorabilia/loosely.pdf >Beware. It takes up 4MB. > >At 3/6/2004 12:20 AM -0600, Tom Kysilko wrote: >> These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed >>to freshmen (in 1966 anyway). Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at >>least 20 mimeographed pages. That's very interesting! Probably half of those items were current at Michigan when I was there (about the same time), and a few I haven't heard since then. Surely I don't remember ever hearing any of those odd apheretic ones except for "za". "Ner" = "dinner"? "Nis" = "tennis"? "Dry" = "laundry"? "Fee" = "coffee"? "Gly" = "ugly"? "Ries" = "memories" [really hard to believe]? How would one pronounce "bage" (meaning "cribbage"), please? "Baidge" or "bidge" or "budge" or "badge"? Apparently the unfamiliarity of most of these ones is not restricted to my admittedly ignorant self. Were they local? Ephemeral? Is "za" (along with "rents" maybe) an isolated survivor of a whole once-thriving phylum? Or were most of these modeled on "za", perhaps? These seem so unnatural to me that I suppose that their invention was a sort of conscious word-game like Pig Latin or backslang ... but how widespread was the game? And how long-lasting? I have to admit that "[chrysanthe]mum" is pretty weird too, now that I think about it: still I can invoke (at least imagine!) a variant pronunciation with clear last-syllable secondary stress, while I can't make such an excuse for "ten[nis]". BTW: "mung" (= "crud") is the ancestor of the modern computer-jargon "mung", I'm sure: this I've heard continuously since the 1960's. "Mung-pie" (based on "Moon Pie"?) I don't recall, though. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 6 16:15:29 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:15:29 -0800 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, > it is considered to consist of "North Jersey" and "South > Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in California. > There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other > Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, > neither of which dominate the rest of the Garden State > the way New York City does the Empire State. Hence neither > region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate." No "downstate/upstate," but there is the phrase "down the shore," used by those in North Jersey to refer to the coastal regions of the south. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 6 18:15:30 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:15:30 -0800 Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040306093652.02f126b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2004, at 8:14 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote, about an assortment of amazing undergraduate front-clippings: > ...These seem so unnatural to me > that I suppose that their invention was a sort of conscious word-game > like > Pig Latin or backslang ... but how widespread was the game? And how > long-lasting?... the playful character of these clippings seems pretty clear. in fact, their *ostentatiously* playful character; they're meant to stand out, to be noticed. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), a long-time fan of language play From davemarc at PANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 16:24:58 2004 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:24:58 -0500 Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo Message-ID: Thanks, everyone, for the helpful (and witty) suggestions. As always, I appreciate your expertise! Sincerely, David ----- Original Message ----- > >For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some > >authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the World > >Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific > >cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research into > >such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks could > >provide, onlist or offlist. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 6 19:55:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:55:51 EST Subject: Spider Cake (1895); "JFK" Googles ADS-L; Ski Butler Message-ID: SPIDER CAKE "Spider cake" is in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE. "Bannock" was mentioned on rec.food.historic. Again, I don't know what DARE has for "spider cake," but I supplied a few posts. Below is one from 1895. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07FOOD.html?pagewanted=2 Easier to realize in your own kitchen is a creamy, corny skillet preparation from New England called spider cake, which has delighted roomfuls of people every time I've served it. So-called because of the veins created by the cream in its vortex, which separates the crumb during baking, this substantial one-skillet meal will get your kids to school happier than they've ever been, and you happy only if they've left some behind. As my recipe tester, Alice Thompson, responded: ''Spider cake rules! How has this escaped the culinary radar so far? Where has it been all my life?' For a visually splendid accompaniment to the spider cake (also delectable standing alone), I stumbled across a feather-light balloon of eggs during a snowbound weekend at Wheatleigh, the exclusive hotel in Lenox, Mass. The chef J. Bryce Whittlesey's souffle omelet with goat cheese sent me back the next day for the one with wild mushrooms, and the next for the one with the house-smoked salmon. The ingredients were first-rate, but most unusual was the technique, and it's quite simple: separate the eggs, whisk the whites to soft peaks, fold them back together with seasoning and bake. Yes, bake. Timed right, this runny amalgam can then encompass any filling -- not just goat cheese or mushrooms. (But don't add the filling before cooking or the omelet may be too heavy to rise.) Whittlesey also simmers dried Turkish apricots in water, creating a sweet (but not jam-sweet) sauce that is just as delicious straight from the spoon as it is atop silver dollar pancakes, toast, yogurt or just about anything but chipped beef. And if you're too harried to make your own, there are so many fine breakfasting places in New York that any list must be anecdotal, and none could be comprehensive. If there are lines for the power breakfasts at the Regency, who wants power anyway -- too many responsibilities, too much envy. Go north to the Mark for gentility; west to the Fairway Cafe for the nicely scrambled eggs with chorizo and jalapeno and a side of perfect bacon -- not exactly a calming experience but certainly a New York one; south from there to Norma's in the Parker-Meridien for the berry-oatmeal risotto; downtown to Elephant & Castle for consistent invention, most recently the poached eggs under a woody sweet cremini-and-Madeira sauce; go around the corner with your laptop to Doma on Waverly and Perry for a treat called babichka -- French toast with cream cheese between the slices (much better than it sounds; it had better be, the word means ''grandma'' in Czech); go Midtown to Popeye's for the redders and rice. (Actually, do that at any time of day.) Breakfast is also the best meal to have alone, accompanied by your favorite reading matter, comic book to Tolstoy in the original. Mine? (Present newsprint excluded, of course.) Anything that says ''Breakfast served all day.'' New England Spider Cake 2 cups milk 4 teaspoons white vinegar 1 cup all-purpose flour 3/4 cup yellow cornmeal 3/4 cup sugar 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon salt 2 eggs 2 tablespoons butter 1 cup heavy cream. 1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Combine milk and vinegar in a bowl and set aside to sour. In another bowl, combine flour, cornmeal, sugar, baking soda and salt. Whisk eggs into the soured milk. Stir into dry ingredients and set batter aside. 2. Melt butter in a 12-inch cast-iron skillet. Pour in the batter. Pour cream into the center, slide skillet into the oven and bake until golden brown on top, about 45 minutes. Slice into wedges and serve warm. Yield: 8 servings. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Denton Journal - 6/29/1895 ...This is the real old-fashioned New England SPIDER CAKE, the direct deccndant of the old.....3Ir. W. I. Norris is now 3fr. II. A. Roo's book-keeper. SIO to Mnciira Fulls. In all the.....breaking them, lluve ready n thick iron SPIDER or old-fashioned frying pan.....found a table well spread with ice cream, CAKE and other refreshments. Those present.. Denton, Maryland Saturday, June 29, 1895 808 k Pg. 3, col. 7: _Huckleberry Bannock._ This is the real old-fahsioned New England spider cake, the direct descendant of the old English griddle cake. The fruit best suited to the bannock is the firm, small black huckleberry. The large, blue juicy berry is apt to crush in the mixing with the spoon. Carefully pick over the firm, black huckleberries, a quart to a bannock, wash them and lay them on a towel to dry, making the dough as follows: Sift a pint of flour with a teaspoonful of salt and two heaping teaspoonfuls of baking powder; chop into the flour two large tablespoonfuls of butter and mix in about a pint of water--enough to make a soft dough which will receive the berries without breaking them. Have ready a thick iron spider or old-fashioned frying pan, moderately heated and containing about a teaspoonful of melted butter. Mix the huckleberries through the dough without crushing them, press the dough gently over the bottom of the spider and smooth the top by wetting it with a blade of a bread, flat knife. Make sure there is plenty of butter to brown the bottom of the bannock. If there is not it will burn. If the pan is kept over a moderate heat for about twenty to thirty minutes, and not allowed to become charred for lack of the drying medium, the cooking will be successfully accomplished. The bannock is eaten hot with butter and sometimes iwth sugar and cream. It is one of the most delicious of all the breakfast breads. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "JFK" GOOGLES ADS-L JUST FOR KERRY--456 Google hits, 99 Google Groups hits Just a month ago, on 8 February 2004, I posted this: This one has been making the rounds recently. It was used in a NEW YORK POST story about "The Real Kerry."JFK " JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits The hits have grown since then. Interestingly, these are the first two Google results for "Just For Kerry": (GOOGLE) ADS-L archives -- February 2004, week 2 ... JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry'): Re: 'JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry') (36 lines) From: Laurence Horn ; ... listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/ wa?A1=ind0402b&L=ads-l - 43k - Mar 4, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages New York Post Online Edition: postopinion ... His initials are JFK," longtime state Senate President William M. Bulger used to muse on St. Patrick's Day, "Just for Kerry. He's ... nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/17337.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SKI BUTLER This was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL two days ago. "Ski butlers" deliver warm boots, among other things. There are only 17 Google hits for "ski butlers." ("Ski Butler" gives you hits for Butler, Kentucky.) Don't more people need warm boots?? (GOOGLE) Ski Property for Sale Real Estate Chalet Home News Properties ... ... In the ever glitzier world of ski resorts (one hotel at Beaver Creek offers "ski butlers" who deliver warmed boots each morning) there always have been a few ... skiresorthome.com/ - 33k - Mar 4, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages DallasNews.com | News for Dallas, Texas | Travel: United States ... Tap the Ski Butlers in the hotel lobby each morning for information on the latest weather and snow conditions, plus tips on powder stashes, the best-groomed ... www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/fea/travel/unitedstates/ stories/122103dntranufantasies.99e1.html - 88k - Cached - Similar pages Concierge.com: Condé Nast Traveler: Lists ... TRAILS Beginner: 0% Intermediate: 48% Advanced: 52%. WHAT STANDS OUT Ski butlers handle rentals, lift tickets, and even spa appointments. ... www.concierge.com/cntraveler/lists/skipoll02/detail/9 - 39k - Mar 5, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages The St. Regis, Aspen - Aspen Hotels - CO ... Lounge. Whiskey Rocks provides the après-ski scene. Skiers appreciate the ski butlers and shuttles to nearby mountains. Insider ... www.expedia.co.uk/pub/agent.dll/qscr=dspv/htid=5594 - 43k - Cached - Similar pages The Timeshare Beat: Boomers Are Buying In At The "Mountain ... ... Village at Telluride in southwestern Colorado will feature not only heated cobblestone walks and luxury cabins, but will include personal ski butlers to carry ... www.thetimesharebeat.com/archives/ts/tsdec24.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages The Timeshare Beat: New Luxury Resort in Telluride to be Managed ...> > ... Our services will be extraordinary, including ski butlers and personal vacation planners,'' Gamache added. Wyndham International, Inc. ... www.thetimesharebeat.com/archives/htl/htloct79.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages The St. Regis Aspen - Cheap hotels in Aspen ... Lounge. Whiskey Rocks provides the après ski scene. Skiers appreciate the ski butlers and shuttles to nearby mountains. Insider ... www.cheephotels.co.uk/Aspen/The-St-Regis-Aspen.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages From debaron at UIUC.EDU Sat Mar 6 21:10:44 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:10:44 -0600 Subject: english-only yet again Message-ID: Colleagues: In the latest issue of Foreign Policy, Samuel P. Huntington writes that unless the US returns to its Anglo-Protestant, anglophone roots, it faces collapse. His target is Hispanic Americans. I've written the essay below, which I'm shopping around, as a response. I'm sending it to the ads-l fyi, and any comments are welcome. Dennis "Spanish, English, and the New Nativism" by Dennis Baron Linguistic nativism – the kind that says, “Speak English or go back where you came from” – is a long-standing and regrettable American tradition. It’s also unnecessary. No matter how hard minority language speakers work to preserve their speech, they face an inexorable shift to English. That was true of German in the past, and it’s true of Spanish today. Eighteenth-century nativists like Benjamin Franklin accused German Americans of taking jobs away from English workers, of speaking a debased dialect of their own language, and of refusing to learn English. But it wasn’t long before the Germans, and just about everyone else who didn’t speak English, abandoned their heritage languages. Today there is a popular perception that English, the language that dominates the entire world, is endangered at home. The new nativists see Spanish as the enemy. They are wrong: while Spanish has eclipsed German as the leading minority language spoken in this country, the 2000 Census reports that 92% of all Americans over five years old have no difficulty speaking English. But Americans who speak only English, as most do, tend to see other languages as threats. When the U.S. entered World War I in 1917, the governor of Iowa, in his own version of the Patriot Act, struck out at the German enemy, forbidding the use of any foreign language in public. The number of Hispanics in Iowa doubled between 1990 and 2000, and fearing a Spanish invasion, in 2002 Iowa became the twenty-seventh state to make English its official language. But English in Iowa needs no protection: only 2.9% of Iowa’s population are Spanish speakers, and over half of them speak English very well. English is secure as the language of American government, education, and commerce. But Harvard’s Samuel P. Huntington is only the latest scare monger to argue otherwise. In the current issue of Foreign Policy, Huntington warns that “the values, institutions, and culture” of the creators of America – white Protestant speakers of English – are rapidly losing ground to multiculturalism and diversity. Adding academic cachet to the new nativism that calls Miami a foreign country and the American Southwest, North Mexico, Huntington laments that Hispanic immigrants, unlike other groups, retain their heritage language and pose a threat not just to English, but to American stability. He warns that the only way for Hispanics to buy into America without tearing it apart is to learn English: “There is no Americano dream. There is only the American dream created by an Anglo-Protestant society. Mexican Americans will share in that dream and in that society only if they dream in English.” [“The Hispanic Challenge,” Foreign Policy (March/April, 2004), pp. 30-45]. Huntington concedes that America no longer defines itself as exclusively white and Protestant, but he insists that the Anglo-Protestant creed, the American dream embodied in the English of Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence and the other founding documents, is something that non-English speakers are just not going to understand. Languages around the world carry the burdens of national or religious ideology, and English is no exception: it’s the language of representative democracy, of global capitalism, of rock ‘n’ roll. But that doesn’t mean that freedom, business and music can’t be expressed in other languages as well. Huntington charges that unlike other groups, Hispanics oppose official-English laws, that even when their socioeconomic status improves, Hispanics hold on to Spanish, slowing their educational progress and ultimately, their assimilation. He suggests shutting off Mexican immigration to solve the language problem, facilitate assimilation, and preserve the union. A newly-diverse immigrant community, rather than the current predominantly-Spanish-speaking one, would once again adopt English as a common denominator, and the nation could return to normal. But English, already the common denominator, isn’t the undisputed property of Anglo-Protestants. It’s a language that began in heathen Europe, traveled to Celtic Britain, was leavened with the Latin of Irish monks, the Norse of Viking raiders, and the French of Norman invaders intent on regime change. Even during the brief Anglo-Protestant moment of Shakespeare and King James, English swelled with borrowings from classical languages, Italian, and Spanish. Modern English has absorbed words from Arabic, Hebrew, Native American languages, Yiddish, Polish, Hindi, Bantu, and a host of tongues from Africa, Asia and the Pacific. In turn the British, and later the Americans, exported English around the globe, where local varieties of the language have gone native. In short, English is culturally diverse enough to make an Anglo-Protestant switch to Klingon. Meanwhile, back home, even with the continuing influx of Spanish speakers to the U.S., Hispanic Americans are losing their Spanish, many of them by the second generation, considerably faster than the language loss of pre-World War I immigrants. And they object to official-English laws like Iowa’s not because they want to keep on speaking Spanish. It’s not the law that drives out the language, but subtle social and economic pressure. Hispanics object to official English legislation – as all Americans should – because such laws say, “We don’t want you here.” Dennis Baron debaron at uiuc.edu Dept. of English University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 english dept.: 217-333-2390 From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 6 21:19:26 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:19:26 -0800 Subject: Bridge & Tunnel Crowd Redux In-Reply-To: <40A37ED4-6F9A-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: This morning I heard a radio DJ here in the Bay Area (Annalisa on KFOG 104.5) use the term "bridge and tunnel crowd" to refer to suburbanites coming into the city of San Francisco. The use of "bridge" certainly fits, but "tunnel" is a bit out of place here--unless one is refering to the BART tunnel running under the bay or to the Caldecott tunnel which runs underneath the Oakland hills. (She followed up the "bridge and tunnel" comment with a reference to people driving in from Concord & Walnut Creek.) I've never heard it before outside of NYC references and this could be a one-off usage. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 6 22:10:40 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:10:40 -0500 Subject: Googleable ADS-L Message-ID: I see that the messages on this list are now found by Google. This is a fairly recent development. Presumably somebody started putting direct links to the ADS-L archive on some bulletin board or Web page and the search engine followed the links. Whatever you or I said on the list about (say) "quahogs" three years ago will be found by anybody googling for "quahogs". Then that interested person can e-mail you and me at his pleasure to discuss the quahogs further. Some words may arouse more -- and/or less welcome -- interest than "quahogs", of course. Googling for my own name I come up with hundreds of items from the list. (Of course the archive was always (AFAIK) freely available on the Web to anyone who looked for it.) -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 00:35:53 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:35:53 -0500 Subject: Spider Cake (1873) and Bannock (1810) Message-ID: SPIDER CAKE More on the itsy bitsy spider. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Print Source: Old times Chellis, Mary Dwinell. New York : National Temperance Society and Publication House, 1873. Page 241: CHAPTER XIV. LUMBERING. THE next morning Mrs. Weston rose very early, to prepare breakfast for her husband, although he assured her that it was not necessary. "You and the children will need what there is," he said, kindly. "There'll be enough left for us," she answered with a smile which was almost bright. "We've got plenty, and I'm so happy. I don't want much to eat. I'll make some spider cakes for the children, so they'll have a treat." (PROQUEST'S HERITAGE QUEST) TRURO--CAPE COD, OR, LAND MARKS AND SEA MARKS by Shebnah Rich Boston: D. Lothrop & Co. 1883 Pg. 345: The spider, or skillet, and the Dutch oven, should not be omitted from the list of kitchen furnishings. They were indispensable agents of happiness and civilization. Though not intended, I am not sure this remark does not contain a philosphical truth. To the spider we are indebted for the famous "spider cakes," that for tender, wholesome, and well-cooked bread of wheat, corn or rye-flour, that to this day cannot well be surpassed. The principal qualifications in this formula was "faculty." It is surprising how largely that simple quantity permeated comfortable homes, and how large a factor it became in the social problem. Should I go further and venture an opinion, from a quite broad field of observation it would be that the one needed accomplishment in settling the domestic question of the day, is _faculty_. The favorite and never-failing item in the Cape bill of fare is pies. The Old Colony wives were well-- ---versed in the arts Of pies, puddings and tarts, proving most conclusively their relations with the counties of old Devon and Cornwall. --------------------------------------------------------------- BANNOCK OED has "bannock" from 1000 A.D., but the below might be of use. (BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES) Spence, Elizabeth Isabella. "Letter from Elizabeth Isabella Spence to Turnour, Countess of Winterton, August 14, 1810" [Page 193 | Paragraph | Section | Document] to celebrate the victory of Robert over the English.35 "Bannockburn, from what reason we know not, receives its name from the panis cineritius of the Romans. Unleaven cakes, toasted in the ashes, or upon an iron plate, called a girdle, are named Bannocks in Scotland." — Forsyth. Immediately after passing Bannockburn, I entered the town of St. Ninians. In an old low roofed house, on the left hand, report says, James the Third was mortally wounded by a priest, after the battle of Sanchieburn, where he was Spence, Elizabeth Isabella, 1768-1832, Letter from Elizabeth Isabella Spence to Turnour, Countess of Winterton, August 14, 1810 in Sketches of the Present Manners, Customs, and Scenery of Scotland; With Incidental Remarks on the Scottish Character, 2nd edition, vol. 1. London, England: Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme & Brown, 1811, pp. 216. [Bibliographic Details] [8-14-1810] S9742-D026 Carlyle, Jane Baillie Welsh. "Letter from Jane Baillie Welsh Carlyle to Thomas Carlyle, April 13, 1848" [Page 318 | Paragraph | Section | Document] light had been brought in; and, an hour after, tea was placed for me in the same invisible manner. I looked, to myself, sitting there, all alone, in the midst of comforts and luxuries not my own, like one of those wayfarers in the fairy tales who, having left home with `a bannock' to `poose their fortune,' and followed the road their `stick fell towards,' find themselves in a beautiful enchanted palace, where all their wants are supplied to them by supernatural agency; — hospitality of the most exquisite description, only without Carlyle, Jane Baillie Welsh, 1801-1866, Letter from Jane Baillie Welsh Carlyle to Thomas Carlyle, April 13, 1848 in Letters and Memorials of Jane Welsh Carlyle, vol. 1. Froude, James Anthony, ed.. New York, NY: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1883, pp. 445. [Bibliographic Details] [4-13-1848] S4444-D112 Somerville, Mary Fairfax Greig. "Memoir of Mary Fairfax Greig Somerville" [Page 14 | Paragraph | Section | Document] of this extinct race. There was another species of beggar, of yet higher antiquity. If a man were a cripple, and poor, his relations put him in a hand-barrow, and wheeled him to their next neighbour's door, and left him there. Some one came out, gave him oat-cake or peasemeal bannock, and then wheeled him to the next door; and in this way, going from house to house, he obtained a fair livelihood. My brother Sam lived with our grandfather in Edinburgh, and attended the High School, which was in the old town, and, like other boys, he was given pennies to buy bread. Somerville, Mary Fairfax Greig, 1780-1872, Memoir of Mary Fairfax Greig Somerville in Personal Recollections, from Early Life to Old Age, of Mary Somerville: With Selections from her Correspondence. Somerville, Martha, ed.. London, England: John Murray, 1873, pp. 377. [Bibliographic Details] [9999] S5126-D001 (GERRITSEN COLLECTION) Natural history of rye (Secale cereale) and Rye-bread; The Magazine of domestic economy. London: v. 1-7 (no. 1-84); July 1835-June 1842, Vol. 6, pg. 53-56, 4 pgs Pg. 55: We think that our inquiring friends who wish to know how oat-cakes and Scotch bannocks are made, will find the following very simple method of making thin ones the most expeditious, and the result more palatable, than those which are fermented with either yeast or leaven. Mix a stiff dough with water, salt, and oatmeal, roll it our round and as thin as possible, place it on a tin with a thick sprinkling of dry oatmeal over the surface of the tin, place two bricks one on each side of the kitchen fire, support the tin upon them--the smoke will thus escape behind, and there will be sufficient draught of air to draw up the fire. In a _very few_ minutes, say less than four, one side will be baked enough, then turn the cake, and bake the other side as long a time. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 01:50:37 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:50:37 -0500 Subject: Finishing Sauce (1985) Message-ID: FINISHING SAUCE--2,010 Google hits, 288 Google Groups hits FINISHING SAUCES--1,1710 Google hits, 41 Google Groups hits It appears that I've looked at "barbecue sauce," but not "finishing sauce." "Finishing sauce" was invented by a few girls in "finishing school." Does the "finishing sauce" term come from Memphis? February 2004, FIERY FOODS & BBQ (magazine), pg 20, cols. 1-2: _Memphis-Style Finishing Sauce_ This is the sauce that is traditionally served over smoked ribs in Memphis and other parts of Tennessee. Some cooks add prepared yellow mustard to the recipe. It can be converted into a basting sauce by adding more beer and a little more vinegar. Add more hot sauce to taste, or substitute red chile or cayenne powder. 1 cup tomato sauce, preferably made 1 cup red wine vinegar 2 teaspoons Louisianna-style hot sauce 1 tablespoon butter 1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup light beer Place all the ingredients in a saucepan and bring to a boil, stirring constantly. Reduce the heat and simmer, uncovered, for 15 minutes. Remove from the heat, but serve warm over smoked meats. Yield: 2 1/2 cups Heat Scale: Mild (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Alan Zelt (alzeltFINNFAN at worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: Good BBQ Sauce Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Date: 2000/03/07 "Charles L. Gifford" wrote: > > Alan Zelt wrote: > > > > Dwight Broeman wrote: > > > > > > Ok folks, BBQ season is coming. I have tried countless recipes for BBQ sauce > > > and still have not found one yet that takes the cake. Are there any > > > suggestions out there? Hot, spicy, sweet, rubs etc. I am easy! > > > > > > Thanks > > > Dwight > > > > Barbecue sauce is not a rub, but I prefer Eastern Carolina sauce. Heavy > > on the vinegar base. > > -- > > alan > > This would be a "finishing sauce" would it not? > > Charlie Generally speaking, a sauce is not applied until about 15 minutes before completing the smoking, grilling to ensure that any sugar/tomato based sauce does not burn. On the other hand, the Eastern Carolina sauce contains no tomato base no any(or very little sugar). In that case, when I smoke a pork butt, I rub in a little of it before I start smoking. A finishing sauce is sometimes a partner to a good dry rub, which is rubbed into the meat before smoking. In this case, the sauce may just accompany the meat. Such would be the case at the Rendezvous in Memphis, where their dry ribs are the specialty of the house. -- alan (FACTIVA) 4-H barbecue 285 words 1 August 1985 The Baton Rouge Morning Advocate 13-F A new National 4-H chicken barbecue champion will be crowned Nov. 21 during the annual 4-H Poultry and Egg Conference in Louisville, Ky. Finalists are now being selected in regional competitions. The contest is sponsored by the National Broiler Council and TUCO/Cobb, a supplier to the poultry industry. In addition to actually barbecuing chicken for judging, those taking part in the contest must also display a knowledge of the poultry industry in a demonstration required of all contestants. The winner receives a $500 savings bond, a watch, a plaque and other prizes. Last year's national champion was Sheri Yates of Woodland, Al., a student at Southern Union State Junior College. Her winning recipe for cooking chicken on the grill follows. SASSY CHICKEN BARBECUE (Winning recipe from 1984 Chicken Barbeue Contest at the National 4-H Poultry and Egg Conference). Basting Sauce: 1 cup water 2 cups vinegar 1 cup vegetable oil 2 tbls. salt 2 tbls. pepper 1. In saucepan, place all ingredients and stir to mix well. Place over medium heat for about 10 minutes, continuing to stir. Use as sauce to baste chicken every 10 minutes, turning, as it grills. Finishing Sauce: 2 cups catsup 1 cup fermented cane syrup 1 cup water 1/3 cup honey wine 1/2 cup lemon juice 1 1/2 tsps. fresh red pepper 2 tbls. margarine 2 tsps. salt 1/2 cup chopped onion 1 large sassafras root 2. In saucepan, mix together catsup, syrup, water, honey wine, lemon juice, red pepper, margarine, salt and onion; stir. Add sassafras root and heat over low heat. 3. Thoroughly coat chicken with sauce about 15 minutes before removing from grill. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Best Memphis Ribs Wore Mustard Coat By SHIRLEY DOWNING. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1986. p. C10 (1 page) (Article was too small to be read--ed.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Only these four bad hits--ed.) Mountain Democrat - 5/24/1999 ...cut the meat into small portions, fix the FINISHING SAUCE, gather the garnishes and.. Placerville, California Monday, May 24, 1999 555 k Post Crescent - 12/14/1967 ...Remove chicken piece? and keep warm while FINISHING SAUCE. Boil liquid in pan rapidly.....stirring to loosen brown jarticles. Spoon SAUCE over skewered meat. Serve with grilled.....12 to 16 servings. WHIPPED CREAM PUDDING SAUCE 1 can crushed pineapple 1 cup canned.....and peel. Recipe makes about one quart SAUCE. STEAMED PINEAPPLE PUDDING 2 cups.. Appleton, Wisconsin Thursday, December 14, 1967 691 k Coshocton Tribune - 4/1/1976 ...and keep warm in a 250degree oven while FINISHING SAUCE preparation. Add one-half cup.....you attributed to Paul was from the Book of Genesis You get so many things right.....range. Poached eggs with asparagus and wine SAUCE, and apricot V sausage wrapups are.....City as the official Bicentennial guide book for 1976-77. The 150-page soft-covered.. Coshocton, Ohio Thursday, April 01, 1976 545 k Chronicle Telegram - 7/4/1974 ...platter and keep warm in a F. oven while FINISHING SAUCE preparation. Add l'z cup of.....Poached Eggs with Asparagus and Wine SAUCE makes a fine brunch or luncheon dish.....especially, will like. First, a basic white SAUCE is made, gently seasoned with Tabasco.....brand pepper SAUCE. Then the eggs are poached in dry white.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, July 04, 1974 468 k (GOOGLE GROUPS)(Earliest hits--ed.) Re: Buffalo wings recipe needed ... 5) Meanwhile, make a finishing sauce by melting the remaining 5 tablespoons of butter with the remaining 2 teaspoons Tabasco and the remaining seasoning mix in ... rec.food.cooking - Apr 28, 1995 by JGruhn - View Thread (4 articles) Re: scotched bonnet chiles ... Finishing sauce #23768 -----don't know what else to call it - just something I threw together) 1/2 scotch bonnet pepper, minced 2 apricots ... rec.food.cooking - Jun 30, 1994 by Julian Vrieslander - View Thread (11 articles) Re: Barbecue debate ... Their prep is quite complex and involves multiple steps: marination, wrapping the meat in banana leaves and smoking it, and then grilling with a finishing sauce ... rec.food.cooking - Oct 10, 1993 by Julian Vrieslander - View Thread (8 articles) Re: REQUEST: Salmon Steaks ... Transfer fish to 2 warm dinner plates. Place plates in warm oven while finishing sauce. Pour vinegar into skillet. Stir well with wooden spoon. Add mushrooms. ... rec.food.cooking - Jun 2, 1993 by Lynne Nishihara - View Thread (10 articles) RECIPERe: LOOKING FOR A RECIPE FOR CHICKEN MARSALA ... 3/4 cup) 2 cloves garlic, smashed but not chopped or crushed Sliced mushrooms (either quartered or sliced)--2 or 3 hand-fulls 2 tbs butter for finishing sauce. ... rec.food.cooking - May 24, 1991 by Margaret Woo - View Thread (1 article) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark FINISHING SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Pasta sauces Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78355654 Filing Date January 22, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) LiDestri Foods, Inc. CORPORATION NEW YORK 815 West Whitney Road Fairport NEW YORK 14450 Attorney of Record Darren B. Cohen Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 02:12:06 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:12:06 -0500 Subject: Upstate/downstate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's another take on upstate, from a posting this evening on the alt.coffee newsgroup: >My boyfriend and I are running a small coffee cafe in upstate new york >(Westchester County). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 02:21:23 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:21:23 -0500 Subject: Beer Can Chicken (1993) Message-ID: The recipes are straight-forward and easy to follow, and to the author's credit, _there is not a single recipe for beer can chicken!_ Hallelujah! --FIERY FOODS & BBQ (magazine), February 2004, pg. 46, col. 1 (www.fiery-foods.com). (Review of MASTERING THE BBQ: A COMPENDIUM OF BARBECUE RECIPE AND KNOWLEDGE by Michael H Stines, Cape Cod, MA: Cape Cod Barbecue, 2003.) BEER CAN CHICKEN--25,200 Google hits, 646 Google Groups hits Hallelujah? Doesn't "beer can chicken" taste great? Isn't it less filling? At the risk of offending true BBQ Gods, here goes. (GOOGLE GROUPS)(Earliest hits--ed.) Nearing Nirvana! ... Pacific NW. Just wanted to pass along our thanks for all your help. Tomorrow we try beer-can chicken! Thanks again! We'll be lurking. alt.food.barbecue - Sep 26, 1998 by Stan Orchard - View Thread (1 article) Re: I want crispy skin on my roast chicken ... 7. Place "beer can chicken" on a baking sheet. 8. Bake upright on the lowest oven rack at 350 - 375° for 1 hr. 15 min to 1 hr. 30 min. ... rec.food.cooking - Aug 25, 1995 by Bob Patton - View Thread (20 articles) (FACTIVA) The Ritz of pits/Houston brothers smoke the competition STEVEN LONG Staff 1,757 words 25 June 1993 Houston Chronicle 2 STAR 1 English (Copyright 1993) TALK about your tall Texas tales, did you hear the one about the four Houston boys who beat the oil bust with a barbecue pit? Well, way back in '73, four brothers - Wayne and Lawrence Whitworth and their half-brothers, Raymond and Dickie Hartis - decided to make a go with a sheet-metal business. Sheet-metal parts were in high demand at the time, being used to make parts used by an oil industry going like gangbusters. Every now and then, they'd mold some of that sheet metal into a barbecue pit for their friends. These weren't your run-of-the-mill pits; they were heavy-duty setups made of high-quality parts and custom-designed. Well, word of those pits spread and spread, even though the boys weren't exactly giving them away. To tell the truth, those pits were pretty pricey. So when the day came that the oil patch went and dried up, the boys focused their attention on those BBQ pits. In 1983 they opened up a retail store. They called it Pitt's & Spitt's. Today, their pits are smoking around the world - Australia, England, Ireland, Saudi Arabia and Germany. They still call for a chunk of change - from $395 for an ordinary charcoal grill to $3,600 for an ""ultimate'' pit with an upright smoker, a small trailer and double gas burners. ""They can go to $35,000 or up,'' said Wayne Whitworth, who is CEO of Har-Whit, the corporation for Pitt's & Spitt's. ""The sky is the limit. It just depends on what you want on it. ""The most expensive one we ever sold - I can't give out the (exact) price on it - but it was about $55,000,'' he said. It went to a Houston man who Whitworth prefers not to name. ""We've sold a lot of them for from $18,000 to $20,000. They have a lot of special stuff on them.'' Last year, the firm, which has 40 employees, sold 500 pits worldwide. There is hope to expand to franchises in other cities. ""Right now, we are having hell just staying up with our own sales,'' Whitworth said. It all started 20 years ago with a $1,200 loan from the Houston Fire Dept. Credit Union. Wayne Whitworth and his half-brother, Raymond Hartis, worked for the department, while Dickie Hartis and Lawrence Whitworth were in the sheet-metal business. The money was used to start their own sheet-metal place. Business was good until 1983. It was then that their hobby took on more import. Their entry into the pit business as a sideline to their sheet-metal business was not entirely by happenstance. The brothers had gained some small acclaim at barbecue cookoffs. They called themselves ""The Pitt's and Spitt's Brothers,'' and they were often winners. Like most Texans, the brothers, who share the same mother, had grown up around barbecue. ""Our stepdad taught us the concept of smoking,'' Wayne Whitworth said. ""He was a great barbecuer.'' So it was this combination of know-how, materials and misfortune (the oil bust) that cast the brothers into the barbecue arena. ""Our old man raised us that everything worth doing is worth doing perfect,'' Whitworth said. Still, there were some doubts. ""I didn't think people would pay the price which such a well-made pit would demand,'' he said. He was wrong. ""We just shipped two (smokers) to the president of Ukraine,'' Wayne Whitworth said. But the president of the former Soviet republic isn't the only head of state to cook on a Pitt's and Spitt's setup. A few years ago, the brothers shipped a $1,025 model to a remote address in Maryland called Camp David. George Bush has long been a backyard barbecue fan. When Bush left the White House, he invited Whitworth to his home here in Houston. ""Me and my brother Raymond gave him a few helpful hints,'' Whitworth said, including how to smoke a chicken. ""It's called beer-can chicken,'' Whitworth laughed. ""You fill a beer can with about a half can of beer and a half can of water, throw in some chopped onion and some spices, then insert the can in the chicken's cavity.'' The bird is then perched upright on the can and slow-smoked. The brew in the can keeps the meat moist. (...) (FACTIVA) Hog-Wild in Memphis Steven Raichlen Special to The Washington Post 3,249 words 1 June 1994 The Washington Post FINAL e01 (...) BEER CAN CHICKEN (Makes 4 to 5 servings) This offbeat recipe makes the most succulent barbecued chicken I've ever tasted. The secret: An open can of beer is inserted into the cavity of the bird, which is cooked upright. Besides being incredibly tender, the bird makes a great conversation piece. The recipe comes from the Bryce Boar Blazers of Texas. 4-to-5-pound chicken FOR THE DRY RUB: 1 tablespoon seasoning salt 1 tablespoon garlic powder Salt and black pepper to taste TO SMOKE: 1 jar of Cajun Injector+ seasoning (optional) 1 can of beer (the Blazers use Budweiser++) 1/2 to 1 cup mesquite chips, soaked in cold water for 1 hour Remove any fat lumps in the cavity. Wash chicken well; blot dry. Combine the dry rub ingredients and season the bird inside and out. If using Cajun Injector, load the syringe and inject 1 tablespoon sauce into each breast, leg and thigh. Pop the tab off the beer can. Using a "church key"-style can opener, make 6 or 7 holes in the top of the can. Spoon any remaining dry rub through the holes into the beer. Stand the chicken upright and insert the beer can into the cavity. Spread out the legs to form a sort of tripod, so the bird stands upright. Place the chicken in a smoker or a grill set up as a smoker (see instructions at the bottom of Page E10). Smoke-cook the chicken for 2 1/2 to 3 hours or until fall-off-the-bone tender. Serve the chicken upright on the beer can on a platter. + Note: Cajun Injector is a bottled basting mixture. If unavailable, you can use the Crispy Critter basting mixture below or omit it entirely. ++ Budweiser does not officially endorse this use of its beer or beer can. Per serving: 1102 calories, 122 gm protein, 5 gm carbohydrates, 60 gm fat, 17 gm saturated fat, 486 mg cholesterol, 1784 mg sodium (OCLC WORLDCAT) Beer-can chicken : and 74 other offbeat recipes for the grill / Author: Raichlen, Steven. Publication: New York : Workman Pub., 2002 Document: English : Book From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 03:04:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:04:52 -0500 Subject: Ambulance Chaser (1896) Message-ID: "Ambulance chaser," like "shyster," is another epithet used at lawyers. The HDAS, citing the DA, has July 1897...Like "shyster," "ambulance chaser" might also come from New York City...PUCK should have "ambulance chaser," but we don't have the 1890s years yet. I e-mailed an APS ONLINE ProQuest guy, but got no response. If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496, I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Broad Ax - 9/12/1896 ...the activity of the lawyers known as "AMBULANCE CHASERS" will be convinced of their.....miles of Boston. Send postal card for book. A benefit is always experienced from.. Salt Lake City, Utah Saturday, September 12, 1896 687 k Pg. 3?, col. 4: _"AMBULANCE CHASERS"_ _Pettifogging Lawyers Who Hunt Up_ _Cases in Which They Can Get_ _Jobs._ Anybody who doubts the activity of the lawyers known as "ambulance chasers" will be convinced of their alertness after a short experience in one of the accidents happening every day. Victims of any sort of accidents are very promptly deluged with cards and advertsiements of such attorneys: but it used to be necessary for the lawyers to wait until the cases were published in the newspapers. Now such delay rarely occurs. The method of acquainting themselves with such matters has been brought down to a science, and offers to obtain legal redress reach the victims of the misfortune rapidly. One instance of escpecial promptness happened the other day, when a man was run over by a wagon in Grand street. This occurred at half past 8 in the morning, and before 10 a lawyer had interviewed him and made arrangements to undertake the case. Such rapidity is rather exceptional, but instances little short of it are to be noticed every day. Message-ID: deviance (OED 1944) 1941 _Amer. Anthropologist_ 43: 22 Only this solitary settlement has taken to raising potatoes, only they keep cattle as well as buffalo. The reason for their deviance is not far to seek. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 04:06:46 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:06:46 -0500 Subject: Spider Cake (1895) In-Reply-To: <1df.1aad468b.2d7b86c7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:55 PM -0500 3/6/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SPIDER CAKE > > "Spider cake" is in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE. "Bannock" was >mentioned on rec.food.historic. Again, I don't know what DARE has for "spider >cake," but I supplied a few posts. Below is one from 1895. Indeed. Barry posts confirm my reaction when I read this article earlier this evening... > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07FOOD.html?pagewanted=2 >Easier to realize in your own kitchen is a creamy, corny skillet preparation >from New England called spider cake, which has delighted roomfuls of people >every time I've served it. So-called because of the veins created by the cream >in its vortex, which separates the crumb during baking, this substantial >one-skillet meal will get your kids to school happier than they've >ever been, and >you happy only if they've left some behind. ...which was that, pace Jonathan Reynolds (author of this piece), spider cake *isn't* so-called because of the "veins created by the cream in its votex", but rather for the same reason skillet corn bread is so-called--because it's made in one. Nice to have the evidence to prove it! larry horn From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Mar 7 07:24:11 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 02:24:11 -0500 Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo) Message-ID: Reminds me of my friends in college who went around a medieval banquet exclaiming 'Zilla. After the pattern of 'Swounds or 'Struth or 'Steeth. Seán Fitzpatrick http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 7 14:56:53 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:56:53 -0500 Subject: english-only yet again Message-ID: The original article Samuel Huntington, to which Dennis Baron's essay is a response, is available online at http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2495 John Baker From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Sun Mar 7 14:48:12 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:48:12 +0000 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate >> slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to >> generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate >> students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his >> father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days... I learned 'rents from my 30-something Resident Director when I was a Resident Assistant at UMass in 1985/86 (I remember the 'eureka' feeling when I gleaned what it means). I particularly remember her using it in discussions about coming out, so it could've come to her via gay/lesbian subculture or the in loco parentis subculture of resident directors/assistants (or elsewhere...). Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Mar 7 16:30:15 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:30:15 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078670892@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Lynne Murphy > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 6:48 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: 'mo = homo > > > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > >> I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate > >> slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to > >> generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate > >> students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his > >> father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days... > > I learned 'rents from my 30-something Resident Director when I was a > Resident Assistant at UMass in 1985/86 (I remember the 'eureka' feeling > when I gleaned what it means). I particularly remember her using it in > discussions about coming out, so it could've come to her via gay/lesbian > subculture or the in loco parentis subculture of resident > directors/assistants (or elsewhere...). I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American undergraduate days a few years earlier (1981-85). There was no association with gay subculture. I recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days. It was not as common as 'rents was a few years later. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 7 19:21:21 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:21:21 -0800 Subject: easy/eager Message-ID: elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04 Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR: It's not a government with which the international community will be easy to deal. at first i thought that pastor had gotten into this by embarking on a relative clause construction, opting for a fronted rather than stranded preposition (possibly because fronted prepositions are perceived as being more formal, more elegant, and more standard), and then continuing with a "tough-movement" (a.k.a. object-to-subject raising) clause, which, unfortunately, doesn't permit preposition fronting (there's no place to move the preposition *to* in "This will not be easy for the international community to deal with"). but then how did "the international community" end up as the subject of "will be easy..."? the grammatical alternatives to what pastor said are pretty distant from it: It's not a government... which will be easy for the international community to deal with./ with which the international community will find it easy to deal./ with which the international community will easily deal. eventually it occurred to me that pastor might simply have blended tough-movement and the equi construction with predicates like "be eager": It's not a government with which the international community will be eager to deal. it's possible, even likely, that pastor intended to assert both difficulty of dealing with this government and lack of enthusiasm on the part of the international community, and ended up with the syntax for the latter but the head adjective for the former. this is, of course, just inspired speculation, but that's pretty much all we have; it would undoubtedly be pointless to ask him what he had on his mind. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), with echoes of "John is easy/eager to please" in his head From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Mar 7 19:39:50 2004 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: <9DE86D3E-706C-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note that Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed to "Only you can prevent wildfires." I don't know when the shift from "forest fires" occurred, but I heard it in a TV ad today. I thought it might be language targeted for a California audience, but "wildfire" is used on the web site www.smokeybear.com. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 7 19:49:19 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:49:19 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires Message-ID: Isn't this related to the difference between "good" and "bad" fires? See http://www.smokeybear.com/good-bad.asp. The old language suggested that all forest fires are bad, which is no longer the Forest Service's position. John Baker From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Mar 7 19:49:47 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:49:47 -0600 Subject: easy/eager In-Reply-To: <200403071921.i27JLQG11274@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04 > Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR: > > It's not a government with which the international community will be > easy to deal. Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"? Jim Parish From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 19:52:40 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:52:40 EST Subject: Can of Worms (1951); Candy From a Baby (1902); How You Play the Game (1926) Message-ID: A few more of Gregory Titelman's American Proverbs checked here. Some Fred Shapiro-type work before I get to my Grant Barrett-type work and Andy Smith-type work. Then my laundry and my taxes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CAN OF WORMS OED has 1962 for the worms. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Appleton Post Crescent - 4/29/1940 ...ANO HOMI SOON.... AND we ALWAYS TOSSES HIS CAN OF WORMS INTO TM8 WATtR WHiN ROOM and.....AFTER, BUILD oun. OWN BAKEAV BY JOVE, I CAN EVEN SEE WHERE WE WILL WAVE TO EXPAND.....Hood, forests OF redwood trees, the Lakes OF Killarney, the Alps OF Switzerland, and.....OF your scrapbook.) If you want a free copy OF the leaflet entitled OF j European War.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, April 29, 1940 916 k Lethbridge Herald - 9/10/1953 ...under operational conditions in such a ''CAN OF WORMS and it was even .harder to.....Like 'CAN OF WORMS1 TCA Head Scores Complicated.....complexity OF construction, is like n OF WORMS. Speaking as guest OF honor at Sinner.....she intends to marry as soon as the singer CAN obtain a divorce from his third wife.. Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, September 10, 1953 554 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 11/29/1951 ...Info, Right From Supply Department 'A CAN OF WORMS' BY PETER EDSON The question OF.....Soviet aggression is still regarded as "a CAN OF WORMS" at eneral Elsenhower's SHAPE.....what to surprise her with at Christmas. You CAN count on your fingers the friends you CAN.....larger than the 5 cents an hour that CAN be granted under the current formula OF.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, November 29, 1951 625 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/29/1953 ...AND GOOD LUCK FROM A LIBERAL AT LARGE. CAN OF WORMS. 'It's why I came here. She met.....OF Australia at one time. Is he dumb? He CAN't even tell Galsworthy from gallstone.....Iowa, Smith OF New Jersey, Mundt OF South Dakota and Fulbright OF Arkansas.....irt OF love does not end with the latching OF the trolley ear. in Nature, the head OF.. Edwardsville, Illinois Monday, June 29, 1953 701 k Mansfield News Journal - 7/30/1946 ...IS NO OBJECTOUT VOU'D THINK THE PRICE OF A CAN OF WORMS WOULD BREAK HIM EHBMAN.....FOR DOUGH ON TREES.' BUT, SEERSUCKER y, VOU CAN BUV A WHOLE CAN OF BUY THE BEST. AN.....GIMME A NEW TACKLE BOX AND A BUTT REST AMD WORMS AT THE STORESEERSUCKER WILL TOSS HIS.....EXPENSIVE BUT WHAT. AND PAV TWO BITS WHEN I CAN DIG UP ALL I WANT RIGHT MERE.. Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, July 30, 1946 813 k Traverse City Record Eagle - 4/25/1951 ...AT DIWNERTIME TffgUY A.THE PINNER. HIM A CAN OF WORMS., IOOK, CHRIS, HE WON'T THEM HOW.....pronoun 57 2.S 20 24 5g 4-15 SCOTT'S SCRAP BOOK By R. J. SCOTT lo-fus SEEDS f IVt.....BIHDWASHUNSRY V BUY THEHE'D EAT ANYTHING. WORMS AND AUO I'M NOT SOIMGVOUr YOU COOK.....PRIZES. DAILY CROSSWORD ACROSS 4. 1. Kind OF nail 5. Genus OF 5. Illy 6. 9. Adorn 10.. Traverse City, Michigan Wednesday, April 25, 1951 692 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CANDY FROM A BABY This is absolutely right and just. Babies shouldn't have candy! The 1889 citation is probably from 1989. You just have to know these things with Newspaperarchive. OED has no "candy from a baby" entry? Titelman gives no date, and 1951 is his first citation. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indiana Weekly Messenger - 2/19/1902 ...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. The' chAnces Are A.....One English industry which hAs not suffered FROM the invAsion lA the lAundry which in.....Accounts of Aged chiefs who hAd the story FROM their fA thers, vthAt the body wAs cut up.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 19, 1902 1014 k Indiana Democrat - 2/12/1902 ...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. chAnces Are A thousAnd to.....willing. J. C. ATEK CO., Lowell, MAli. Ties FROM StrAw. A WA shington mAn hAs struck A.....forwArd with A mAchine which mAke ties FROM strA w, the cheApest mAteriAl In the.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 12, 1902 870 k Indiana Progress - 1/8/1902 ...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. The chAnces Are A thousAnd.....PA. 42 DEAD OR MISSING. ONE LiFE RAFT FROM WALLA WALLA UNHE ARD OF. SAd Experience.....condition. The steAmer George W. Elder, FROM PortlA nd, reports thAt she pAssed the.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 08, 1902 670 k Oxnard Courier - 9/27/1902 ...thAt to cAsh A bet wAs "like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby." So eAsy, yet withA l so.....few prices Clothes Pins. 3 dozen 5c 1600 5c BAby Ribbon, 10 yArds -10c Pins, 4 pAckAges.....AD I JVC TLACE JVo Trouble to Goods Money FROM A, Turchcue o_f Embroideries In GothAm.....to be considered? 200 yArds of Embroidery FROM 2 to 6 in wide, dAinty edges, beAutiful.. Oxnard, California Saturday, September 27, 1902 482 k Mountain Democrat - 11/7/1889 ...DemocrAt Correspondent It wAs like steAling CANDY FROM A bAby. Following A girls.....DorAdo girls win lAugher BRUINS .continued FROM B-1 CougArs host VintAge in Division II.....to go into plAyoffs with, And A good win FROM the kids' stAndpoint." By virtue of this.. Placerville, California Thursday, November 07, 1889 464 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME "It's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game." Titleman says that this was coined by the famed sportswriter Grantland Rice. He gives 1954 for the date of Rice's "Alumnus Football" poem, but others give 1941 as this date. (Rice died in 1954.) We should find nothing before 1941...I haven't checked the SPORTING NEWS or ProQuest yet. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/29/1927 ...bo In baseball, "It all depends on HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best of what YOU've.....done to baseball is listed in every re cord book. What baseball haa tlono to John Joseph.....a hit with his bat on his shoulder, "Never PLAY for a tie I Always PLAY to win. "A good.....bucathing, umpire-baiting, dynamic little GAME cock. Now ho is older, wiser, and.. Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 29, 1927 499 k Mansfield News - 11/6/1927 ...It isn't wheTHEr YOU in or Josecut HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Walter Camp saiei it concisely.....go lose or conquer as YOU can. But if YOU fall or it YOU rise Be.....icitor for THE Mansfield Ne-K-s. is in THE health department be THE recovering from.....is ehaznsan. -cr.y. he -as engaged in and THE saeeting be in THE center -.vork for.. Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, November 06, 1927 803 k Frederick Post - 8/1/1927 ...Take a Chance "It all depends on 'HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best -of what YOU've.....a hit with -his bat on his shoulder. "Never PLAY for i tie Always PLAY to win: "A good.....but whose intentions were good. Now THE GAME is on a higher level. I see more college.....He was a fire-breathing, dynamic little GAME cock. Now he is older, wiser, and mel.. Frederick, Maryland Monday, August 01, 1927 916 k Decatur Review - 10/25/1926 ...after all, in life or sport, It Is HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME, not what THE score is, that.....men and women. In sport children learn to PLAY THE GAME, fairly and with every ounce of.....Is doing well could be expected. THE PLAY given tay THE Dramatic club was well.....Montgomery and daughter, Nellie tended THE PLAY given by THE ma'.lc club Thursday.. Decatur, Illinois Monday, October 25, 1926 692 k Appleton Post Crescent - 7/25/1927 ...TAKE A CHANCE "It all depends on. HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best.of. what YOU've.....done to baseball is listed In every record book. What baseball has done to John Joseph.....a hit" with his bat on his shoulder. "Never PLAY for a tie Always PLAY to win. "A good.....NEW LONDON BOOSTERS .LOOSE THEIR FIRST GAME Xew London THE New London Boosters lost.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, July 25, 1927 975 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/13/1926 ...It is not THE victory that but HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME." Smith could make such a.....by Lilies Quartette. "Peace I Leave With YOU" Koberts. Solo "Lord of THE Land and Sea.....THEme "Observing ILent." He. will sHOW: I. HOW WP are i to observe it, and 2, Why we.....of THE Bessemer towniihlp schools, THE Chorus of THE Purltnn Junior High school.. Ironwood, Michigan Saturday, February 13, 1926 483 k Hayward Review - 11/5/1926 ...much wheTHEr YOU win or lose, its HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME." Draw YOUr own j conclusions.....THE open spaces that atti acted him. It was THE cows THE mselves. YOU see each cow.....Road to Glory." ALSO Laura La Plante in "THE Beautiful Cheat" THE gorgeous drama of.....dishes more wholesome and nutritious. Do YOU know that YOU can buy Mutual Milk for 9c.. Hayward, California Friday, November 05, 1926 618 k Pg. 4?, col. 3: Asked whether he indulged in out door sports and things, this man of ready wit replied "It's not so much wether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Draw your own conclusions as to what he meant by that. (Attributed here to Lee Wilbur, not Grantland Rice--ed.) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Mar 7 20:27:50 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:27:50 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of tchotchke and bummerkeh (ca. 1912) Message-ID: How do you know if you've antedated Yiddish words? The spelling variations play havoc. Tsatske or Tchotchke, meaning a knickknack to most these days, but always retains the old-time meaning of a 'chick' or babe, a loose woman, perhaps merely a pretty one to me. It is cited in OED from 1964. HDAS probably will have much earlier. >From a piece of sheet music titled "At The Yiddisher Ball" from ca. 1912, lyrics by Joe McCarthy, music by Harry Piani. From the Indiana U. Cunningham Library Kirk Collection of sheet music. "In our neighborhood we have, what you call, Once a year a sociable ball, What a time, there's everything you wish, Every one is dressed from soup to fish; You take Rifky, she looks pretty nifty, Don't you mind to bring the lunch, it only costs you fifty; There'll be wine and every thing that's fine At the yiddish sociable ball." (Chorus) "At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball, There'll be only class, or there'll be nothing at all, And when that orchestra plays Yiddish Kazotskys and Bombershays; At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball. We'll make monkey-dood-les 'round the hall, Out upon the floor I'll be Jakey on the spot, Doing the kosher turkey trot, At that first class yiddisher sociable, (Remember, fifty cents admits the ladies and the gents) At that first class yiddisher sociable ball. So, I'm assuming "Kazotskys" is 'tchotchkes' and "Bombershays" is related to 'bummerkeh', which according to Leo Rosten means a woman who bums around, a loose woman. The two words mean the same in the song, the way I read it. "Bombershays' may be something else entirely. Sam Clements From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 20:47:09 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:47:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating? of tchotchke and bummerkeh (ca. 1912) In-Reply-To: <000801c40482$a992db50$a8601941@sam> Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: >How do you know if you've antedated Yiddish words? The spelling >variations play havoc. > >Tsatske or Tchotchke, meaning a knickknack to most these days, but >always retains the old-time meaning of a 'chick' or babe, a loose >woman, perhaps merely a pretty one to me. It is cited in OED from >1964. HDAS probably will have much earlier. > >>>From a piece of sheet music titled "At The Yiddisher Ball" from >>ca. 1912, lyrics by Joe McCarthy, music by Harry Piani. From the >>Indiana U. Cunningham Library Kirk Collection of sheet music. > >"In our neighborhood we have, what you call, Once a year a sociable >ball, What a time, there's everything you wish, Every one is dressed >from soup to fish; You take Rifky, she looks pretty nifty, Don't you >mind to bring the lunch, it only costs you fifty; There'll be wine >and every thing that's fine At the yiddish sociable ball." > >(Chorus) "At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball, There'll >be only class, or there'll be nothing at all, And when that >orchestra plays Yiddish Kazotskys and Bombershays; At the ball, at >the ball, at the yiddisher ball. We'll make monkey-dood-les 'round >the hall, Out upon the floor I'll be Jakey on the spot, Doing the >kosher turkey trot, At that first class yiddisher sociable, >(Remember, fifty cents admits the ladies and the gents) At that >first class yiddisher sociable ball. > >So, I'm assuming "Kazotskys" is 'tchotchkes' and "Bombershays" is >related to 'bummerkeh', which according to Leo Rosten means a woman >who bums around, a loose woman. Nope. "kazotskeys" probably refers to a Russian-inspired dance. My Yiddish-English dictionary (Uriel Weinreich's) has 'dance of Cossack origin'. It's kind of hard to describe, but it involves hands on hips (or behind one's back) and sequentially kicking one's legs out in front, from a squatting position. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 20:50:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:50:56 EST Subject: How You Played the Game (1918); Tsatske Message-ID: HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME On further review, the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS has 1930 for Grantland Rice's "Alumnus Football." Still way off. I forgot to look for "how you PLAYED the game." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Decatur Daily Review - 7/18/1921 ...writes not that YOU won or los But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. f MASTER IN CHANCERY'S SALE.....of THE 3rd P. M., as per pint recorded in Book 14, page 455 of THE records of Macon.....THE fightihK cop is not a novice at THE GAME, having cleaned up everything put agalns.....to THE City of Decatur, as sHOWn by plat in Book 22, at page 560 in THE recorder's office.. Decatur, Illinois Monday, July 18, 1921 688 k Appleton Post Crescent - 4/29/1924 ...writes Not that YOU won or lost But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME." FRED FELIX WETTENGEL GEORGE.....for THE Kimberly-Clark company. He is THE book paper manufacturing member of THE club.....at THE center of THE whole business that THE Rotarians THEmselves hardly realize HOW.....MAY YOUR VISIT TO APPLETON BE ONE THAT YOU WILL LONG REMEMBER. Scheil Bros. GOOD.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, April 29, 1924 670 k Wellsboro Agitator - 10/30/1918 ...thought and' watched his every move, and he PLAYED a soldier's' part. 'Xp greater.....a slant in THE air. When ing down YOU get THE same sensation as when starting down in a.....looks like quite a probVeiii to figure .out HOW a person is able to hold THE: steady.....believing that THE experience I have gained THE better fits me to serve YOU and our.. Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 30, 1918 908 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/20/1926 ...writes not that YOU won or lost But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Ira H. McCiymonds, Pastor.....a decision. A-notlicr ttttrno will be PLAYED between THEse two mjuads In THE near.....school gym Thursday night. THE opening GAME between THE Scouti Middles and THE.....In THE last quarter THE Scouts tied THE GAME up at 19 all. In an overtime period both.. Ironwood, Michigan Saturday, February 20, 1926 640 k Decatur Review - 11/13/1923 ...not that YOU -won or lost, But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Officiate of MlHikin and.....his lessons from THE passages in THE book, he preponted to THE Klwanlans some of.....toward THE Crimson section formed an and PLAYED 'THE Crimson Flames In Triumph.' That.....should take. Honor THE opponent, play THE GAME tn THE best sporting ethics and renumber.. Decatur, Illinois Tuesday, November 13, 1923 639 k Wellsboro Agitator - 11/13/1918 ...YOUr name He not that YOU won But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. THE prices of Shoes at Smith.....hen THE war is over YOU read THE history of THE S. Army in where THE 79th shot to pieces.....THE chosen line and were Oct. YOUr over THE -top: Words can't half express. HOW glad I.....THE best; but let THE cause be what it may, THE opinion of THE Anierican Iwys is that THE.. Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 13, 1918 926 k Pg. 2, col. 7: For when the one great Scorer comes To write against your name He writes--not that you won or lost, But how you played the game. (This is in an ad, not attributed to anyone. It's probably from Grantland Rice. At least we have a closer date to it--ed._ Sheboygan Press - 7/14/1925 ...not thnt YOU won or lost, but HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Courteous, gracious and.....thirty-five oTHErs serve YOU with laughs at THE rate of six ty per minute. THE above.....or individual and should teach children HOW and What io play, through individual.....THE uso of THE apparatus unless under THE personal supervision of THE supervisor.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 14, 1925 929 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CAN OF WORMS The RHHDAS has 1927-1928 for "it's all like a canful of angle-worms to me!" and then 1954-1960. I'm a little curious if there's a citation gap between 1927 and 1951. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TSATSKE Why is anyone still using OED dates for something we've antedated here? DARE asked about the term and I discussed "Tsatske" on 15 March 2000, about four years ago. I discussed 1921, 1931, 1935 amd 1949 citations. The word was credited as "Polish." From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:06:23 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:06:23 -0800 Subject: easy/eager In-Reply-To: <404B287B.24906.1EE1F6C@localhost> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Jim Parish wrote: > On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04 >> Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR: >> >> It's not a government with which the international community will >> be >> easy to deal. > > > Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"? ?? are you saying that the following is fine for you? It's a government with which the international community will be uneasy to deal. yes, some version of "neg raising" is involved here, but i can't see that that's in any way relevant to the problem. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:06:19 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:06:19 -0800 Subject: De-gaying Message-ID: What a hilarious word! From the Boston Globe, March 7, 2004. Hard to check on Google because it doesn't discriminate for hyphens. First, she pulled the pink triangle magnet off the refrigerator. Then, all the lesbian-friendly books and record albums had to be hidden. She scoured the house to remove any love notes between her mother and her mother's girlfriend. Just for good measure, she told her mother not to wear her Birkenstock sandals, because, of course, everybody knew that lesbians wore those. As for the bathroom wallpaper festooned with women, she just sighed. "You de-gay the house," said Heller, now 33. "I was absolutely paranoid about my friends finding out." Benjamin Barrett From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 21:11:33 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:33 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Undergraduate=20front-cli?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?pping=20(was=20'mo=3Dhomo)?= Message-ID: Some of these (if my memory is correct) are found in Richardy Semour's article on college slang (at Duke University) that was printed in PADS in 1966 or 1965. Another place to look is in Connie Eble's work on American college slang. I don't have either book with me at my present location. In a message dated 3/6/04 1:23:41 AM, pds at VISI.COM writes: > At 3/5/2004 02:53 PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > >I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate > >slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to > >generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate > >students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his > >father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days. > > From my undergraduate days: > 'za > 'rents > 'ner = dinner > 'tail = cocktail > 'hue = Goodhue (dormitory) > and while not as common as "libe" > 'bary = library > > All with the stressed syllable clipped. > > These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed > to freshmen (in 1966 anyway).  Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at > least 20 mimeographed pages.  Many of the usages had died out by the time I > got there, (I recall "hum" = all-purpose, often euphemistic, verb.  "They > were out there humming on the lawn."  "Let's hum a za."  Beautiful, but not > used in my time.) but I can swear that the above were all in active use > 1966-1970. > >    Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services >    pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:27:40 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:27:40 -0500 Subject: How You Played the Game (1918); Tsatske In-Reply-To: <200403072051.i27Kp7j22851@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > On further review, the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS has 1930 > for Grantland Rice's "Alumnus Football." Still way off. Yes, it is way off. Rice's poem was first published in 1908. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 7 21:29:51 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:29:51 -0700 Subject: Actor's Dialects Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 21:37:36 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:37:36 EST Subject: "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" (1965) Message-ID: This is in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS under "how you played the game." No date is given there. I had posted 1967 from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. Paper of Record has 14 January 1967 in THE SPORTING NEWS. Did Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach coin it in 1965? Or was it Leo Durocher, with "show me a good sportsman and I'll show you an idiot"? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Valley Independent - 4/6/1965 ...by Boston Celtic CoAch Red "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you A but it did.....pAtterns for decorAtive Accessories in one book Pillows, wAll hA ngings, curtAins.....the job. Another GOOD touch to the SHOW wAs the presence in the Audience of soME.....But if All this is dull there's promAnv ME tApe recorder with one sAving point.. Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 06, 1965 657 k Times Recorder - 7/30/1977 ...4 77 97 73' 4 35 74'. 35'. 75's "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW you A reAl LOSER.....Leo Durocher. There were soME GOOD winners but no GOOD LOSERs in the plA'y.. Zanesville, Ohio Saturday, July 30, 1977 640 k Mountain Democrat - 2/8/1982 ...writer Vince LombArd once sAid, "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you A LOSER." If he.....winning, And the other plAyers mAde fun of ME becAuse I wA sn't A GOOD Lusk sAys And.....grAce, And soMEone who is definitely not A LOSER. And Will Rogers, who never MEt A mAn.....trAck coAch NAtAlie RochA might. Lusk did A GOOD job in the high jump lAst yeAr As A.. Placerville, California Monday, February 08, 1982 379 k Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 10/28/1976 ...reMEmbered the Admonition, 'You SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I will SHOW you A LOSER.' I.....school. If Ford loses, he plAns to write A book titled, "WA shington on A DAy." letters.. Walla Walla, Washington Thursday, October 28, 1976 532 k Chronicle Telegram - 5/3/1969 ...modern students. The sign sAid, "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW You A LOSER." IT.....go down in defeAt. "Knowinng how to be A GOOD LOSER used to be recognized As A mArk of.....ThAt, she Added, expresses the "GOOD, old-fA shioned wAy of sAying you know.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, May 03, 1969 940 k News - 9/23/1980 ...he sAys A voice within him spcke: SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I will SHOW you A LOSER. In.....sAid. know they're A tough bunch, believe ME. these GeorgiA boys. They rr.Ay plAy.....As A result, their schools cAnnot provide A GOOD enough educAtion to give eAch student A.....wAter temperAture, wArm moist Air. And A GOOD circulAtion system thAt lets Air flow in.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 23, 1980 484 k News Journal - 4/6/1965 ...Boston Celtic CoAch Red AuerbAch "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you A LOSER" it did.....the job. Another GOOD touch to the SHOW wAs the presence in the Audience of soME.....rous er RitA PAvone to "Kiddy, Kid dy Kiss ME." FrA nce's Sylvie SPRINGFIELD, 0 (UPI.....JournAl, MAnsfield, O. TuesdAy pteAl The SHOW By DICK DU BROW 'r HOLLYWOOD wAs 5A.. Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, April 06, 1965 697 k Advocate - 10/30/1976 ...reMEmbered the Admonition, 'You SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I will SHOW you A LOSER.' I.....money As it hAd budgeted to spend. Surveys SHOW people Are worried About jobs And.....sAw him Almost every dAy; he never let ME see his heA rt. So I didn't know he wAs.....An orderly mArch to equilibrium. There is A GOOD chAnce thAt unemployMEnt will be SHOWn.. Newark, Ohio Saturday, October 30, 1976 677 k Color Country Spectrum - 9/29/1976 ...BAy PAcker CoAch often sAid. "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And III SHOW yA A An A thlete cAn.....14th And 15th Asked Norton. "He didn't hurt ME At All And there were long periods when be.....hAd nothing but prAise for Norton. "He's A GOOD fighter, cAn't tAke nuthin' AwAy from.....sports, but usuAlly there's A winner And A LOSER. One of the most sAtisfying.. Saint George, Utah Wednesday, September 29, 1976 567 k Kennebec Journal - 11/15/1977 ...A LOSER. (Indeed, if you SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, I'll SHOW you A LOSER.) However, if we.....17th century EnglAnd no one could publish A book or pAper unless he hAd submitted it to.....And chuk sAng. The following one looked GOOD And tAsted GOOD until Fong, A mAn who is.....escApe the rigors of the injunction is to SHOW thAt the episode he wAnts to discuss.. Augusta, Maine Tuesday, November 15, 1977 637 k Nevada State Journal - 5/12/1975 ...kids of mine Are GOOD LOSERs. SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW you A LOSER." Person.....After the MEet thAt it felt pArticulArly GOOD to beAt Wooster. Why? "BecAuse, let's.....the Colts' stAndArd. It is A pArticulArly GOOD feeling to know you've beAten the best.. Reno, Nevada Monday, May 12, 1975 628 k Frederick Post - 12/31/1999 ...is the only thing" philosophy. "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER in professionAl Durocher sAid.....And I'll SHOW you An idiot. SHOW ME A sportsmAn, And I'll SHOW you A.....mAde AMEricAns, blAck And white, feel GOOD About themselves. Robinson's success led.....it virtuAlly took control of sports for GOOD or ill. On ThA nksgiving DAy, footbAll.. Frederick, Maryland Friday, December 31, 1999 716 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (For "show you an idiot." I did not see this in THE SPORTING NEWS--ed.) Sheboygan Press - 6/8/1970 ...there ANd smiles when he loses, ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT." 1st Pub. June 513-6-8.....on to beat a guy in the room put it to DUROCHER. "Why won't YOU tell ANybody how YOU.....to hit him in the head. Who wANts to lose? SHOW me AN ybody who loves to get beat, who.....felt "How do YOU think I Leo DUROCHER said. "I played Casey Stengel in the.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, June 08, 1970 657 k Frederick Post - 12/31/1999 ...in professional DUROCHER said, "ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT. SHOW me a sportsmAN, ANd I.....ll SHOW YOU a player I'm looking to trade to.....fights of his life. Vince Lombardi ANd Leo DUROCHER represented the hard edge of sports.....winning is the only thing" philosophy. "SHOW me a good loser.. Frederick, Maryland Friday, December 31, 1999 716 k Chronicle Telegram - 2/19/1999 ...sports ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT. SHOW me a good sportsmAN ANd I'll SHOW YOU a.....losing. For example, baseball mANager Leo DUROCHER observed: "SHOW me a good BLONDIE.....attract the right mate. A neighbor will SHOW gratitude for YOUr vigilANce. SOLUTION.....22-JAN. Of course YOU deserve a raise, but YOU have to speak up. AQUARIUS (JAN. 20-Feb.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, February 19, 1999 626 k From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:37:48 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:37:48 -0500 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <003d01c40488$0a972f00$9ea98e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0800 3/7/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?What a hilarious word! From the Boston Globe, March 7, 2004. Hard to check >on Google because it doesn't discriminate for hyphens. > > First, she pulled the pink triangle magnet off the refrigerator. >Then, all the lesbian-friendly books and record albums had to be hidden. She >scoured the house to remove any love notes between her mother and her >mother's girlfriend. Just for good measure, she told her mother not to wear >her Birkenstock sandals, because, of course, everybody knew that lesbians >wore those. As for the bathroom wallpaper festooned with women, she just >sighed. > "You de-gay the house," said Heller, now 33. "I was absolutely >paranoid about my friends finding out." > >Benjamin Barrett Very nice. And I like the fact that it conforms to my (admittedly not always reliable generalization on the use of de- as a category-changing prefix for denominal and deadjectival privative verbs; other attested examples are _de-stale_ (an old bagel), _de-rice_ a child's hair. (As opposed to the less likely innovative verb "un-gay", "un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal bases for these.) Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman" would be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were lexically established centuries ago, when the division of labor between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional. Larry Horn From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Mar 7 21:42:48 2004 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:42:48 -0600 Subject: easy/eager In-Reply-To: <200403072106.i27L6RG26497@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > are you saying that the following is fine for you? > > It's a government with which the international community will be > uneasy to deal. Not precisely, no. > yes, some version of "neg raising" is involved here, but i can't see > that that's in any way relevant to the problem. My apologies; I evidently misunderstood the problem. Jim Parish From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 7 21:50:07 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:50:07 EST Subject: easy/eager Message-ID: In a message dated 3/7/04 2:50:00 PM, jparish at SIUE.EDU writes: > On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04 > > Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR: > > > >    It's not a government with which the international community will be > > easy to deal. > > > Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"? > > Jim Parish > This makes sense to me: EASY in the sense of AT-EASE, as in "It's not a government with which the international community will be at ease to deal." Both sound better if the "with" gets displaced to the end, and if the infinitive is changed to a participle: "It's not a government which the international community will be at ease to deal with" < "It's not a government which the international community will be at ease dealing with." From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 22:28:04 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:28:04 -0500 Subject: "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" (1965) In-Reply-To: <1db.1bcb9d9b.2d7cf020@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I had posted 1967 from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. Paper of Record has 14 January > 1967 in THE SPORTING NEWS. > Did Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach coin it in 1965? Or was it Leo > Durocher, with "show me a good sportsman and I'll show you an idiot"? Do either Newspaperarchive or Paperofrecord have anything early for "good and gracious loser"? That's the wording for the earliest Knute Rockne attribution I have. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Mar 7 22:33:24 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:33:24 -0800 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <200403072138.i27Lc68I012529@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Laurence Horn > >Very nice. And I like the fact that it conforms to my >(admittedly not always reliable generalization on the use of >de- as a category-changing prefix for denominal and >deadjectival privative verbs; other attested examples are >_de-stale_ (an old bagel), _de-rice_ a child's hair. (As >opposed to the less likely innovative verb "un-gay", >"un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal bases for >these.) Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman" would >be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were >lexically established centuries ago, when the division of >labor between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional. > >Larry Horn > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 7 23:27:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:27:38 -0500 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <005a01c40494$38506400$9ea98e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: >?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a lexicalized version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of. > >-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn >> >>Very nice. And I like the fact that it conforms to my >>(admittedly not always reliable generalization on the use of >>de- as a category-changing prefix for denominal and >>deadjectival privative verbs; other attested examples are >>_de-stale_ (an old bagel), _de-rice_ a child's hair. (As >>opposed to the less likely innovative verb "un-gay", >>"un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal bases for >>these.) Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman" would >>be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were >>lexically established centuries ago, when the division of >>labor between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional. >> >>Larry Horn >> From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Mar 7 23:34:17 2004 From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:34:17 -0800 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <200403072327.i27NRcYL015668@mxu7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Ahh...Never having done that, I didn't know there was an innovative form. I agree delouse is correct (or at least far better than) delice, though I've often wondered if singulars like louse and bacterium are going to die out. BB >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >On Behalf Of Laurence Horn > >>?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB > >For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a >lexicalized version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 00:42:51 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:42:51 -0500 Subject: Antedatings of Terminate, Termination, Prejudice (Euphemisms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following citation antedates _terminate_ (OED, v. 4.c. (b), 1972) and _prejudice_ (OED, n. 1.c., 1972): 1969 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Aug. 2 His [Chu Ven Thai Khac's] status as a double agent was reportedly confirmed by the Central Intelligence Agency, which ... suggested that he either be isolated or "terminated with extreme prejudice." This citation antedates _termination_ (OED, 3.f., 1975): 1969 _N.Y. Times_ 1 Oct. 46 According to The Times, Khac is a victim of termination with extreme prejudice. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 00:43:01 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:43:01 -0500 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <006c01c4049c$b6709fa0$9ea98e8c@PASCO> Message-ID: At 3:34 PM -0800 3/7/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?Ahh...Never having done that, I didn't know there was an innovative form. I >agree delouse is correct (or at least far better than) delice, though I've >often wondered if singulars like louse and bacterium are going to die out. >BB Could be, although I think the causes will be different. In the former, the pressure is homonymy/polysemy avoidance based on the more frequent slang extension of "louse", sort of the way "bitch" has been displaced for female dogs, although the taboo avoidance in the "bitch" case is obviously a stronger force. With "bacteria", I think it's the same process by which "alumni" and "criteria" being reinterpreted as singulars, displacing the original Classical singular. As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice distribution for quite some time. larry horn > >-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn > >> >>>?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB >> >>For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a >>lexicalized version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 00:46:54 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:46:54 -0500 Subject: Ambulance Chaser (1896) In-Reply-To: <2DBE5DD0.4BDE3B7A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496, > I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken." I can't even find it in 1895. Good job, Barry! Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 8 01:13:46 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:13:46 -0500 Subject: "Candy from a baby"(1900) Message-ID: I'm back with the NYU databases. It appears that this phrase comes from New York City. Don't take "candy" from "Baby Ruth." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1. THE VARIAG'S FAST SPEED.; New Russian Cruiser Succeeds in Making 23 1/4 Knots. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 6, 1900. p. 2 (1 page): Ex-Sheriff William J. Buttling of Brooklyn has something like $4,000 outstanding in bets that the Republicans will be victorious this Fall in the State and Nation. Mr. Buttling is looked upon as one of the shrewdest bettors in Kings County. He has wagered, for one thing, that McKinley will carry that county. "These bets have been forced upon me," said the big ex-Sheriff, a day or two ago. "It makes me sad to have to bet this Fall. It's like taking candy from a baby. ..." 2. THE DISINFECTION OF CROKER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 19, 1900. p. 6 (1 page): But it would have been quite another thing to send actual money down to Wall Street to become the prey of the first bettor who had chosen to acquire it, and who would have felt in taking it, according to the picturesque expression of the Sheriff of Kings, that he was "taking candy from a baby." There's nothing in the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, but there is this nice article on "Brooklyn's Sweet Tooth" that's worth reading. 12 July 1891, BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, pg 19: She picks up a candy baby, looking white and pretty, and by a hasty immersion transforms it into a chocolate infant and lays it on its back to dry. From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Mar 8 02:37:27 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:37:27 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am interested in the way actors learn an accent for a part in a > movie or play. This is strictly anecdotal. As the webmaster for the ADS site, I get a lot of queries from actors and directors, usually for stage plays, wanting to know of dialect resources. Over the years, I've done a bit of digging around so I can offer some ideas when the question arises. In smaller productions, it seems like the usual method is to listen to many sound samples by different speakers of the accent needed, and then imitate them. One British correspondent was doing a production set in the Catskills, and was looking for some New York accents, working under the assumption that a New York City accent was close enough. Instead, I sent her to a list of streaming talk radio stations for upstate New York (in my definition, beyond bedroom-community distance from NYC), and recommended she take a long listen to some of those Great Lakes-area vowels. I think the play concerned the Borscht Belt, so I recommended Jackie Mason as a guide for how the Jewish New Yorkers from the Fifties who were taking a holiday away from the city might sound (only less profane than Mason); I thought she could probably find his recorded routines in the UK. She said it helped. I dunno. In some cases, particularly when doing historical accents, the recommendation that they concentrate on word choice and sentence structure by studying texts of the period has been well-received, as long as they understand that people then, as now, don't write exactly as they speak. Last year someone who was acting in a Lewis and Clark reenactment said he found my suggestion to study Clark's journals useful. Clark was an awful speller, tending to write some words phonetically, giving at least small hints as to how he might have pronounced certain words. This can also help prevent anachronisms, and let an actor who is going to have to wing it all day in Ye Olde Village kind of tourist setting develop some stock phrases and have some old-timey current events for context (crops, wars, elections, etc.). I get the impression, however, that it is more common for the smaller productions just to do a "different" accent. You could make Clark sound like a modern West Virginian with a bit of television British English thrown in and most American spectators wouldn't be the wiser. Larger productions--which never send me such questions--hire voice coaches and may spend weeks having the actors learn the accents. Actors I know, however, claim too many of these coaches are hacks who do ridiculous things such as teach one broad Southern accent, which is I guess why you tend to get characters supposedly from Texas sounding like they're from Alabama and vice versa. The women apparently are often taught just one of two Southern accents: either the sugar-pie-bless-your-heart or the ah-do-declare. The better actors spend longer and do more to learn, of course, and may work with several coaches: one for voice (tone, range, projection), one for accent/dialect (pronunciation, cadence, even going to far as to make script suggestions if the coach feels the character would "never say that"), and another for line delivery (emphasis, emotion). Stuff I've read elsewhere suggests that Nicole Kidman is a bit of an accent Zelig, but like acting, not everyone has that ability (or the motivation, time, or money), so actors and producers and directors often rely on audience forgiveness, innocence, or ignorance. I heard a woman on the television show Alias a while back doing a horrific British accent. It was so cringe-worthy, I could only assume that she would be unmasked as a mole in a future episode. I have been told by actors that most of the tapes and books which profess to teach accents and dialects are only good as a starting point, and several people have told me they're not really worth the money. I don't know; I've never used them or heard them. One person said that finding any role model who has the desired accent, and then imitating as much of the *person* as possible, within the boundaries of the current role, is more useful. Again, I dunno. This doesn't exactly answer your questions, but that's what I have, for what it's worth. There are probably people on this list who know actual facts about this, instead of stories, but I'll leave it to them to speak up. To close, here is an interesting discussion of language and accent use in movies, and how badly they are done, with some excellent links included. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001053.php Here are some of the sample sets I often refer people to: British dialects http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/ North American dialects http://www.ukans.edu/~idea/northamerica.html Speech Language Archive, many languages http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/ Slave narratives http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/vfshtml/ Master page of American English samples http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/samples.html Cheers, Grant From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 8 02:56:34 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:56:34 -0500 Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria Message-ID: WINE COOLER I was asked by an OUP-type person to do "wine cooler" ASAP: What's the first reference you can find for "wine-cooler," meaning a beverage composed of white wine and fruit (as opposed to a device for cooling wine), and what's the first reference to "sangria" in the United States (as opposed to references to sangria in other countries). OED has "wine cooler, a vessel in which bottles of wine can be immersed in ice or iced liquid," from 1815. In 2000, I had posted this: TAVERN WEEKLY NEWS Here's a roundup of some of the many "THE BARMAN'S CORNER, by Patrick Murphy" columns in the TAVERN WEEKLY NEWS (also TAVERN NEWS when some issues were bi-weekly). The NYPL gets the Illinois edition. I have no idea about other editions, which may be different. (...) 23 June 1938, pg. 10: COOLING WINE DRINKS FOR SUMMER (Raspberry Sauterne Punch, Peach Punch, California Punch, Pink Lady, Orange Cooler, White Wine Punch, Claret Grenadine Punch, Claret Punch, Raspberry Port Punch, Burgundy Pineapple Punch, Claret Party Punch, Burgundy Orangeade, Burgundy Flip, Port Wine Flip, Sherry Eggnog, Wine Cobbler, Monterey Mint Cooler, Champagne Cocktail, Chin-Chin Champagne Cocktail, Champagne Punch, Gloria Wine Julep--ed.) 30 June 1938, pg. 8: COOLING WINE DRINKS FOR SUMMER Introducing Wine Coolers (Burgundy Mint Julep, Tea Punch, Peach Bowle, Wine Lemonade, Wine Cooler, Wine Sherbet Cooler, Pineapple Bowle, Sherry Eggnog, Port Wine Flip, Muscatel Gingeree, WIne Cobbler, Port Cobbler, Burgundy Flip, Monterey Mint Cooler, Champagne Cocktail, Gloria Wine Julep--ed.) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(NY Times & LA Times)("Wine cooler" + "Fruit") Wine Coolers Ideal for 'Open House' MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 18, 1937. p. D15 (1 page): Wine coolers combine the tang and freshness of fragrant fruits with the bouquet and aroma or delicious wines. THey are ideal beverages for an "open house." (...) PORT COBBLER (Individual Service) Place one cup California port in tall glass two-thirds filled with crushed ice. Add six melon balls, or seeded grapes, or fruits in season. COOL WINE DRINKS BEAT SUMMER HEAT MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 10, 1951. p. B2 (1 page): Wine coolers fill the wide gap between soft and hard drinks for summer refreshments. Fruit-flavored sodas, such as lime, lemon, grapefruit or cherry, combine with wine and ice cubes to make some of summer's choice coolers. They are simply prepared by filling half a tall glass with a favorite wine, red or white, adding two or three ice cubes and filling the glass with a favorite fruit-flavored soda. Display Ad 35 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 6, 1966. p. 9 (1 page): We'll quench your thirst at dinner with a refreshing red wine cooler, or white wine spritzer. (Longchamp's restaurants--ed.) Late-Hour Experiment Draws Few to Metropolitan Museum By RICHARD F. SHEPARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 31, 1967. p. 40 (1 page): The drinks were beer, wine and a drink called sangria, made from wine, seltzer, vodka and fruit, quite similar to the wine cooler known as a Spritzer. '83 wine sales: imports and bubblies still surge. Frank J. Prial. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 11, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages) First page: One of the significant developments of 1983 was the growth of wine coolers, a product that most consumers in the New York area have not tasted. Wine coolers, a mixture of fruit juice, wine and soda water, sprang into prominence seemingly overnight in the parts of the country, mostly the West and the South, where they have been introduced. Last year almost 34 million gallons entered distribution channels, an 18.5 percent rise over 1982. The increase was particularly impressive because the coolers are in a category of wines known as "special natural" that has been dropping steadily for almost a decade. Measure Would Let Grocery Stores Sell a Wine Beverage Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 29, 1984. p. B2 (1 page): Under the bill, only wine made from grapes grown in the state could be used in the beverage, called a wine cooler. The provision is designed to increase sagging sales among the state's 75 grape growers and vintners, according to Timothy J. Russert, counselor to the Governor. Wine coolers--a carbonated mixture of wine, fruit juice, water and sugar--would join beer as the only alcoholic beverages that could be sold legally in New York food stores if the bill becomes law. The sale of wine coolers is already permitted in licensed liquor stores, taverns and restaurants, where they have been available for about the last three months. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post; notice the gap here and the "California" ad in 1957) Display Ad 56 -- No Title The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 14, 1957. p. C18 (1 page): ENJOY a Wine Cooler, like this. Or a Sherry-on-the-Rocks. At your parties, serve a Wine Punch made of California Sauterne, Burgundy, Port, or pink Rose. ALWAYS ASK FOR the Wines of California WINE ADVISORY BOARD Display Ad 9 -- No Title The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 4, 1970. p. A4 (1 page): FRUIT WINE COOLERS YOUR CHOICE 69c 1/5 APPLE 1/5 ORANGE 1/5 PEACH 1/5 LIME FULL QT. PINEAPPLE SERVE ICE COLD (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal, first citation) Adolph Coors Co. to Test Wine Cooler Market Entry By a WALL STREET JOURNAL Staff Reporter. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1985. p. 10 (1 page) (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE CITRUS AND WHITE WINE COOLER CALIFORNIA COOLER NATURAL FRUIT PARTICLES RETAINED Goods and Services IC 033. US 047. G & S: White Wine and Fruit Juice Cocktail. FIRST USE: 19810708. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810814 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 200310 260907 260921 261121 261709 Serial Number 73448107 Filing Date October 14, 1983 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition July 9, 1985 Registration Number 1438276 Registration Date April 28, 1987 Owner (REGISTRANT) BROWN-FORMAN CORPORATION CORPORATION TENNESSEE 850 DIXIE HWY. LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 402101091 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record MICHAEL S. WALSH Prior Registrations 1268425 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "THE CITRUS AND WHITE WINE COOLER" AND "NATURAL FRUIT PARTICLES RETAINED" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark THE DRAWING CONTAINS LINING FOR THE COLORS GREEN AND GOLD, BUT NO CLAIM IS MADE TO COLOR. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Cancellation Date January 7, 1988 Distinctiveness Limitation Statement AS TO THE WORDS "CALIFORNIA COOLER". Word Mark CALIFORNIA COOLER Goods and Services IC 033. US 047. G & S: Prepared Alcoholic Cocktail, Consisting of White Wine and Natural Fruit Juices. FIRST USE: 19810814. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810910 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73335938 Filing Date November 6, 1981 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition February 21, 1984 Supplemental Register Date September 8, 1983 Registration Number 1268425 Registration Date February 21, 1984 Owner (REGISTRANT) ISLAND WINE COOLER COMPANY LIMITED PARTNERSHIP CALIFORNIA 6161 E. HWY. 12 LODI CALIFORNIA 95240 (LAST LISTED OWNER) BROWN-FORMAN CORPORATION CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 2001 HOWARD ST. LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 402011080 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record MICHAEL S. WALSH Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register SUPPLEMENTAL Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE --------------------------------------------------------------- SANGRIA I have some "Sangria" posts in the ADS-L archives, perhaps relevant. (OED) [a. Sp. sangría (see SANGAREE).] A cold drink of Spanish origin composed of red wine variously diluted and sweetened. 1961 ‘J. WELCOME’ Beware of Midnight x. 119 Hugo ordered a dry Martini for himself and a jug of Sangria for the others..‘It's a sort of Spanish Pimms.’ 1966 House & Garden Dec. 79/3 Visitors to Spain soon become familiar with sangríathe national iced wine cup. The simplest form consists of slices of fruit..soaked in a rough Spanish red wine and with a little water..and ice added. 1972 D. LEES Zodiac 107, I ordered a pitcher of sangria to go with the couscous. 1978 Times 23 Apr. 12/8 There was time for a glass of the house Sangria (a sweet wine tasting of Cherry~ade). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post) Old Seville Is Mucho Formidable By Horace Sutton. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 20, 1958. p. F19 (1 page): In his ginmill, which serves United States cokes or sangria, a red wine seasoned with sugar and lemons, there is room for 400 spectators who sit in an ampitheater under a canopy of paper flowers. WEST INDIAN FAVORITES; SANGRIA CARIBBEAN RICE CASSEROLE OF BACALAO PEACHES JAMAICA By AMY ALDEN. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Mar 8, 1959. p. AW16 (1 page): SANGRIA (MAKES 1 QUART--6 PORTIONS) 1/2 cup fresh lime juice 1/3 cup granulated sugar 1 cup cold water 2 cups chilled red table wine Ice cubes Stir lime juice, sugar and water together until sugar is dissolved. Add wine and pour over ice cubes in tall glasses to serve. One-Man Show Minus One By Rosanna Groarke. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 6, 1960. p. D1 (1 page): _Sangria_, a cold Spanish wine cup, was served to guests as they strolled through the galleries hung with works from all the Picasso periods. Brass Polishing Won't Open Doors for Her; CLEANING CLOTHS CHRISTMAS QUERY REGIMENTATION RECIPE REQUEST Anne's Reader Exchange. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 12, 1964. p. C6 (1 page) : DOES ANYONE have a recipe for Sangria, a Spanish style punch made with red wine, soda, lemon juice and various fruits? Sun and Sangria Make Picnic Fun The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 4, 1966. p. B7 (1 page) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times) Latin-American Zest on Midtown Menu By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 9, 1960. p. 35 (1 page): Lastly, the management recommends a drink known as Sangria, which is really a wine punch made with citrus juices, Chilean wine and soda. It is undoubtedly authentic but it would be more suited to warmer climates. (The La Fonda del Sol restaurant--ed.) A TASTE OF THINGS TO COME; Knowledge of What Dishes to Select Will Brighten a Trip By Making One Into a Gourmet Native to Everywhere By MYRA WALDO. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 26, 1961. p. XX29 (1 page): First, some grilled swordfish on skewers, or _kinch shishte_, then some slices from the _doerner kebab_, which is lamb roasted vertically in a large piece, so that the fat drips away. (Turkey. A search for "donor kebab" would miss this--ed.) (...) With all of this, one drinks a _sangria_, the delicious wine punch of the nation (Spain--ed.). Diplomat's Wife Leads Three Lives; Madame Heisbourg Is Official Hostess in Three Countries Her Clothes Plans Are Tailored to Nation She Is Visiting By CHARLOTTE CURTIS Special to The New York Times.WASHINGTON.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 27, 1961. p. 26 (1 page): "And in Mexico, I like to have pompano and sangria (a combination of wine with orange juice, lemon juice and soda). ..." Display Ad 2 -- No Title New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 19, 1963. p. 2 (1 page): Well, maybe a pitcher of Sangria (wine pucnh). (La Fonda del Sol, 123 West 50th Street--ed.) A Drink Low in Spirits Can Raise the Spirits; Cooling Beverages for Late Summer Are Offered By NAN ICKERINGILL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 20, 1964. p. 32 (1 page): SANGRIA THis Spanish drink is proving as popular at the current World's Fair as iced tea did at a previous one. This recipe is for sangria as served at the Hilton Cafe International atop the Better Living building: Place 10 ice cubes in a one-and-one-half-quart glass pitcher. Peel an orange and add the peel in one piece, plus the orange, sliced. Do the same with a lemon. Add one-half bottle of good Spanish or Chilean red wine and one pint club soda. Add a dash or brandy and, if desired, a dash of Triple Sec. Stir well and serve immediately. Makes four servings. The Spanish Pavilion: A Restaurant Among the Most Beautiful in Manhattan By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1966. p. 77 (1 page): Speaking of beverages, a favorite drink at the restaurant appears to be the sangria. It is made there with red Spanish wine, ice, fruits, Spanish brandy, a touch of Cointreau and a small bottle of club soda. Gold Coast Gastronomy; Yucas and Malangas Many Foreign Kitchens Pompano Popular Tantalizing Litchi A Tasty Fruit New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 5, 1967. p. XX3 (1 page): Cubans also have popularized _sangria_, a wine p[unch, as an aperitif. (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark SANGRIA DE TORO Translations THE WORD "SANGRIA" MEANS "A RED WINE WITH CITRUS FRUIT JUICE" OR SIMPLY "WINE PUNCH." THE WORDING "DE TORO" MEANS "OF THE BULL." Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 033. US 047. G & S: RED WINE WITH CITRUS FRUIT JUICE ADDED. FIRST USE: 19670215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19670215 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 72330022 Filing Date June 13, 1969 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0949971 Registration Date January 2, 1973 Owner (REGISTRANT) TORRES, MIGUEL UNKNOWN VILLAFRANCA DEL PANADES SPAIN Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Prior Registrations 0773309 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE WORD "SANGRIA" APART FROM THE MARK. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 8 03:19:58 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:19:58 -0500 Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: [[ I was asked by an OUP-type person to do "wine cooler" ASAP: What's the first reference you can find for "wine-cooler," meaning a beverage composed of white wine and fruit (as opposed to a device for cooling wine), and what's the first reference to "sangria" in the United States (as opposed to references to sangria in other countries). SANGRIA I have some "Sangria" posts in the ADS-L archives, perhaps relevant.]] Barry, You posted the following in ADS <> Also, there is a Newpaperarchive hit for sangria in 1951. ("...sangria, which is a mixture of red wine and fruit juices.") This was penned by a columnist in Spain. SC Sam Clements From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 8 04:13:29 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:13:29 -0500 Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria In-Reply-To: <000b01c404bc$3cf5f010$a8601941@sam> Message-ID: I find this "sangri'a" on-line in the 1803 dictionary of the RAE (Spanish Royal Academy) (but not in the 1791 edition nor earlier editions). <> I don't see why it couldn't have arisen from "sangri'a" = "bleeding" (old medical procedure). The RAE dictionary may have been rather conservative, I think, and perhaps this "sangri'a" was conventional in Spanish much earlier (just speculation). 1803 is still 67 years after the earliest OED citation (assuming that "sangre" in 1736 was truly continuous with the later "sangaree" etc.). -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 8 04:41:21 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:41:21 -0500 Subject: Thumbprint Cookies (1950); Sangria (1951); Wine Cooler & Adult Soda Pop Message-ID: THUMBPRINT COOKIES I was in my local Food Emporium (under the 59th Street Bridge) and it was crazy on Sunday. "Thumbprint cookies" were sold there. I'd posted "thumbprints" from 1963, but this is earlier. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Dixon Evening Telegraph - 11/30/1950 ...in half moon shape. Frosts 60 COOKIES. THUMBPRINT COOKIES fi cup shortening I cup.....rack. Place a bit of melted red jelly in THUMBPRINT. Makes about 2 doz. Dutch COOKIES.....spatula: cool on cake rack. Makes about 60 COOKIES. Chocolate Topping. Melt 1 pkg. semi.. Dixon, Illinois Thursday, November 30, 1950 497 k Dixon Evening Telegraph - 11/30/1950 ...in half moon shape. Frosts 60 COOKIES. THUMBPRINT COOKIES Vi cup shortening 1 cup.....spatula; cool on cake rackMakes about 60 COOKIES. Chocolate Topping. Melt 1 pkg. semi.....jelly in THUMBPRINTMakes about 2 doz. Dutch COOKIES 6 tablesp. shortening '.4 cup.. Dixon, Illinois Thursday, November 30, 1950 419 k Appleton Post Crescent - 12/21/1959 ...for a plum. That's why they are called "THUMBPRINT" COOKIES. Preheat oven to 300.....and 'stars. These she draws first Christmas COOKIES Christmas Wreath COOKIES are made by.....Punch. FOOD STORES TL L M. f i Thumbprmt COOKIES Holiday Suggestion When you take out.....Schmldt Photo Eight Tiers of Decorated star COOKIES make a most attractive holiday.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, December 21, 1959 723 k Sheboygan Press - 12/15/1955 ...and cut into bars. Sirs. Henry J. Meyer. THUMBPRINT COOKIES Mrs. Henry J. Meyer, who.....15 minutes. Mrs. 3 Fred Kummer. Gum Drop COOKIES (Yield: 40 COOKIES) cup shortening.....accompanied with the serving of Christinas COOKIES. There are innumerable varieties of.....there, submitted favorite recipes for COOKIES from among their large collections.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Thursday, December 15, 1955 679 k Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 12/6/1956 ...to cool. Chocolate will melt from heat of COOKIES and keep filberts in place. Makes 24.....cloth until ready to use. Chocolate Filbert THUMBPRINTS Use cup butter or margarine, cup.....To Christmas Feasting Gaily Decorated COOKIES, Pastries Are Fine Gifts HOLIDAY Part.....with the preparation of colorful, delicious COOKIES, many of them cut in the shapes of.. Walla Walla, Washington Thursday, December 06, 1956 726 k --------------------------------------------------------------- SANGRIA Yes, the post was getting a little long, so I thought I'd send the ProQuest stuff and do the Newspaperarchive stuff separately, after a break. Sam beat me to it. You can't rest for a second with these guys. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Valley News - 10/4/1960 ...pictured Argentinian dish, -accompanied by SANGRIA. a wine punch. The sun motif in the.. Van Nuys, California Tuesday, October 04, 1960 894 k Berkshire Eagle - 8/1/1959 ...aturing all you can eat for only Appetizers SANGRIA (Spanish wine Shrimp Cocktail, Fruit.....a Club selection. He is working on a new book, which started out as a, short novel.....nor seem a large percentage, bur, writing a book is a long-term project and more.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Saturday, August 01, 1959 1032 k Pg. 7A, col. 6 ad: Appetizers Sangria (Spanish wine punch),... Nevada State Journal - 9/16/1951 ...as on pool tables, rushed the food and the SANGRIA, which is a mixture of red wine and.....Quentin Keybut j nolds on page 207 of his book Octopus is considered a delicacy in many.. Reno, Nevada Sunday, September 16, 1951 751 k Pg. 4, col. 6: (Arenas de San Pedro, Spain--ed.) Senoritas in embroidered fall skirts, as on pool tables, rushed the food and the sangria, which is a mixture of red wine and fruit juices. Reno Evening Gazette - 5/28/1954 ...avoided me for days after. We ordered a SANGRIA a wine and fruit juice mixture. The.....with publicity flare that consumption of book-type matches has reached something.. Reno, Nevada Friday, May 28, 1954 709 k Pg. 4, col. 6: (From Lisbon--ed.) We ordered a sangria--a wine and fruit juice mixture. Traverse City Record Eagle - 9/17/1951 ...as on pool tables, rushed the food and the SANGRIA, which is a mixture of red wine and.. Traverse City, Michigan Monday, September 17, 1951 617 k Mansfield News Journal - 9/20/1951 ...felt skirts, as on pool tables, rushed he SANGRIA, of red seems worth the effort. It is.....ance. For many years the fly leaf of every book in the English collection of the Bombay.....contained a notice which read, treat this book as if it was your own. Trustees of the.. Mansfield, Ohio Thursday, September 20, 1951 788 k --------------------------------------------------------------- WINE COOLER & ADULT SODA POP Some citations. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 6/21/1945 ...in ZESM ITS REFRESHING DEJECTED? Try a WINE "COOLER" Tired AND hot after a hard day.....Add charged water, sugar AND garnish with FRUIT slices. Atk for At fi> Llqnr COUNCIL.....office? We the perfect refresher. Enjoy a WINE "COOLER" before, -with, or after meals.....Pacific islANDs have to contend. DRINK WINE ITS HEALTHFUL.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Thursday, June 21, 1945 541 k Vallejo Times Herald - 7/31/1974 ...spears AND maraschino cherries. FRUITED WINE COOLER (Serves 4) cup sliced hulled.....AND banana slicesMakes 8 to 1C small tarts. FRUIT-WINE REFRESHER (Makes about 10 servings.....saving accompaniment to the FRUITy Rose' COOLER is tiny FRUIT Tartlettes. A package of.....Have all ingredients well chilled. Combine WINE with FRUIT juices. Pour over ice cubes.. Vallejo, California Wednesday, July 31, 1974 1207 k Humboldt Standard - 7/10/1952 ...peel over drink for oil. Cool off with WINE COOLER Pour 2 oz. fine WINE into highball.....because Certo is a liquid natural FRUIT pectin product More real, fresh-FRUIT.....of 1519 'South 12th St., Tacoma, Wash.; AND son-in-law of Mr. AND Mrs. D. R. Lewis of.....at the Naval Air Facility with his wife AND their two daughters, Carol AND Christine.. Eureka, California Thursday, July 10, 1952 606 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 7/6/1950 ...BUY'SUNNYBANK at SAFEWAY DRINK TRY THIS WINE COOLER' Just stir together 2 cups of.....are homegrown, too. Majority of, the fresh FRUIT. is: coming from California. cantaloupe.....Betty Ann Port WINE, 2 cups orange juice, cup lemon juice.....is probably the uest bargain on. the FRUIT counter. It, is topnotch quality.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Thursday, July 06, 1950 583 k Newport Daily News - 6/25/1951 ...Tom Colllni, Gnrdenfreih Mint Julep or WINE COOLER. THE EMBASSY "Where Good People.....Union Pacific United Aircraft United FRUIT U. S. Rubber U. S. Steel Western Union.....AND less humid this afternoon. Fair AND COOLER tonight AND Tuesday. Gusty northwest.....for Boston AND vicinity Windy fair turning COOLER AND becoming less humid this afternoon.. Newport, Rhode Island Monday, June 25, 1951 712 k (FACTIVA) Soda Pop for Adults Only LARRY WALKER 701 words 24 July 1985 The San Francisco Chronicle FINAL 16 According to marketing analysis reports, if you are an aging member of the Pepsi Generation (late 20s, most likely a woman, turning a bit yuppie around the edges), you probably are about to try one of the hottest new consumer products in years - the wine cooler. If, on the other hand, you are in your early 20s, a member of a racial or ethnic minority and a male, marketing nabobs say you're already a confirmed cooler drinker. Or you may be in your late 40s or early 50s, male or female, a jogger or tennis player, trying to cut down a bit on the hard stuff and looking for something with a refreshing taste. If so, you're probably reaching for a wine cooler right now. No wonder the numbers look so good on this astonishingly popular product. Wine cooler sales went from zero in 1980 to over 12 million cases in 1984. Coolers accounted for over 20 percent of all California wine shipments last July; this year the percentage is predicted to be even higher. Giants E.& J. Gallo and Joseph Seagram & Sons have come out with coolers, and advertising spent on the three major brands - California Cooler, Bartles & Jaymes (Gallo) and Seagram Cooler - easily will top $25 million this year. Cooler scoffers say the drink, a simple blend of wine, fruit juice, fruit flavorings and carbonated water, is a flash-in-the-pan, like the pop wines of the late '60s and early '70s (honk if you remember Annie Greensprings). I don't think this is true, for at least a couple of reasons. The coolers taste better than the pop wines (which still are selling very well, thank you, in places like Joplin, Missouri, and Duluth, Minnesota). They're much more refreshing and, generally speaking, not as sweet. Also, the lower alcohol content (ranging from about 4 to 7 percent) appeals to the health-conscious crowd. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 8 05:01:22 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:01:22 -0500 Subject: NY Times cartoonist Dargan Message-ID: NEW YORK TIMES CARTOONIST DARGAN ("Hot Dog," continued) So bad it's funny. First, it's Dorgan, not Dargan. Second, as everyone knows, the NEW YORK TIMES doesn't run cartoons! Once! Mention my name once, ever? (FACTIVA) Food Tip of the day Sara Perks The Hamilton Spectator 267 words 23 February 2004 The Hamilton Spectator Final G05 English Copyright (c) 2004 The Hamilton Spectator. Food facts and fun stuff The hot dog was given its name by a cartoonist, says Douglas B. Smith in his book Ever Wonder Why? The story starts with a Frankfurt butcher who named the long frankurter sausage a "dachshund sausage" after his dog. Then in the U.S., in 1871, German butcher Charles Feltman opened a stand in Coney Island, selling dachshund sausages. In 1901, New York Times cartoonist T.A. Dargan noticed one sausage vendor used buns to handle the hot sausages after he burnt his fingers, and Dargan decided to illustrate the incident. He wasn't sure of the spelling of dachshund and simply called it "hot dog." From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 8 05:56:33 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:56:33 -0700 Subject: Actor's Dialects Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 8 06:40:43 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:40:43 -0500 Subject: Rockefeller Gesture; Reverse McCarthyism; Bleeding Heart; Beltway Bandit Message-ID: Some more stuff, but not for an OED-type person. I gotta go to sleep now. --------------------------------------------------------------- ROCKEFELLER GESTURE (6 January 1986) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Carter in Playboy By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1976. p. 41 (1 page): The Washington newspapers gleefully front-paged the use of the hitherto taboo word just as they published the picture of Mr. Rockefeller's breakthrough middle-fingering. --------------------------------------------------------------- REVERSE McCARTHYISM (March 1975) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) McCarthy Helps Dems Club GOP By Herb Heft Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 24, 1954. p. 25 (1 page): Rep. W. M. (Schine Ball) Wheeler pitched a no-hitter against the Do-Nothing Republicans. And you might say that the Democrats applied some reverse McCarthyism to pull this game out. Inside Report; Danger From the Left By Rowland Evans and Robert Novak. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 18, 1965. p. A25 (1 page): In a kind of reverse McCarthyism, moderate Negro leaders, white liberals, and government officials have feared to point out the degree of Communist infiltration. Barry Tells Britons of New Threat The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 26, 1966. p. A4 (1 page) Scott Calls Attack on FBI Reverse McCarthyism The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 12, 1971. p. A21 (1 page) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 3/18/1965 ...in the civil rights movement. In a kind of REVERSE MCCARTHYISM moderate Negro leaders.....himself. Reynolds had just completed one book and was at work on another when he dtod.....Lmversity. When he was war hero and wrote a book graduated in 1924, he had deabout him.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, March 18, 1965 705 k Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 10/27/1970 ...is practicing something very close to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....Brien Close to Practicing 'AAcCarthyism' in REVERSE WASHINGTON In imputing, in a back.....door way, a politics of MCCARTHYISM to the Republicans, Democratic.....not their motives, into question. The real MCCARTHYISM was a thousand miles away from.. Walla Walla, Washington Tuesday, October 27, 1970 783 k Advocate - 11/4/1970 ...is practicing something very dose to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....of the ofl's. critizicing the horrors of MCCARTHYISM. The English don't fool around.....said has been taken of conlrxJ. The real MCCARTHYISM was a Ihousand nulos away from.....of Joseph McCarthy and the dangers of MCCARTHYISM and a ionp lime before today's.. Newark, Ohio Wednesday, November 04, 1970 644 k Chronicle Telegram - 12/17/1966 ...of room for unity among all Republicans. REVERSE MCCARTHYISM is subtle form of.....space treaty. By its insidious nature, REVERSE-MCCARTHYISM presents us with.....for the commonwealth. Can it be said that REVERSE-McCartbyism has Strike upsets Pacific.....on which has been worse for the U.S.A. MCCARTHYISM, in its popular meaning; or.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, December 17, 1966 820 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/27/1970 ...is praticing something very close to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....imputing, in a backdoor way. a politics of MCCARTHYISM to the Republicans. Democratic.....not their motives, into question. The real MCCARTHYISM was a thousand miles away from.....of Joseph McCarthy and the dangers of MCCARTHYISM and a long time before today's.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, October 27, 1970 654 k --------------------------------------------------------------- (VAST) RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY (1991) (NATION DIGITAL ARCHIVE) 20 June 1966, NATION, pg. 742: ...an all too easy assumption is that Oswald may have been a pawn in some devious right-wing conspiracy. (PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) TAYLOR HACKFORD: NO, 'WHITE NIGHTS' IS NOT 'RAMBO' IN TIGHTS:[FINAL EDITION, C] Julia Cameron. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 17, 1985. pg. 4 (...) The reporters aren't buying. They have been muttering to each other all day, "Rambo in tights." They are looking at a trend. It's a right-wing conspiracy theory, they say, with Hollywood as co-conspirator: "Rambo," "Commando" and now "White Nights." They try to impress the significance of this on Hackford. He listens, but to him the evidence is circumstantial. He was there. He knows what he was driving at, and it wasn't "Rambo" in tights. The Bitter Taste of `The Dinner Party':[Home Edition] ROBERT PEDERSEN. The Los Angeles Times (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 5, 1990. pg. 3 (...) Chicago made no mention of the "religious fanatics" and neo-Nazi conspiracy she now appears to credit in the Mahler story with frustrating her efforts to place "The Dinner Party" at UDC. Is Chicago now suggesting that the UDC students were dupes of some right-wing conspiracy? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) No Conspiracy, But-- Two Assassins, Perhaps?; '...It seems to me possible that the report does not do justice to its own inquiries...' No Conspiracy, But-- In two and three-quarter years there has been a remarkable amount of nonevidence By HENRY FAIRLIE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 11, 1966. p. 302 (5 pages) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Newark Advocate - 12/31/1963 ...was neither the work of a left or RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY. It was the independent you.....Dallas and showed her the beginnings of a book critical (if the Russian svstcm. Lee.....to discipline. Meanwhile, the extreme RIGHT WING groups seem to be trying to prove.....The curious, sick argument seems to be that RIGHT WING hate is therefore clean and even.. Newark, Ohio Tuesday, December 31, 1963 566 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/28/1964 ...in America suspect that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or i U.S. RIGHT-WING plot the.....reeway. The front of the Texas School Book Depository was now on the President's.....the Trade Mart. front of the Texas Schoolc Book Depository was now on the President's.....motorcade, including the tall Texas school book depository, from which Lee Harvey Oswald.. Edwardsville, Illinois Monday, September 28, 1964 735 k Appleton Post Crescent - 9/28/1964 ...in America suspect that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....Thomas G.. Buchanan, author of the book "Who Killed Kennedy" which was published.....investigations, court proceedings, or the RIGHT of individuals to a fair trial." Rumors.....the Commission has found no evidence of CONSPIRACY, subversion, or disloyalty to the.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, September 28, 1964 831 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 9/28/1964 ...had commented I that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....destroyed isaicL A" the shots came School Book Depository. "The report." he said, "is.....Oswald from FBI Director j Edgar extremist RIGHT-WING elements, of Fort Worth, mother of.....it can be the comin the area where book "The erroneous disclosures became the.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Monday, September 28, 1964 691 k Holland Evening Sentinel - 7/16/1964 ...knight of salvation, the voice of a RIGHTj WING CONSPIRACY, or merely a shallow thinker.....problems. What he calls himself is a RIGHT-WING conservative. He thinks that way.. Holland, Michigan Thursday, July 16, 1964 639 k Reno Evening Gazette - 9/28/1964 ...America suspect [that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....floor corner window of the Texas School Book Depository. He picked Oswald from a.....keeps you up, settle yourself for sleep RIGHT away with TUMS antacid tablets. Today's.....that either Oswald or Ruby "was part of any CONSPIRACY, domestic or foreign, to.. Reno, Nevada Monday, September 28, 1964 631 k Holland Evening Sentinel - 7/25/1964 ...knight of .salvation, the voice of a rigbt WING CONSPIRACY, or a shallow thinker with.....party system. 'Goldwater calls himself a RIGHT WING conservative. But the popular.....Marian .lean Shaw, l.iilure to the RIGHT of Juan barra. Burke Ave. disorderly.....changed to give more weight to big powers. RIGHT or wrong, Goldwater stands rarely.. Holland, Michigan Saturday, July 25, 1964 658 k Manitowoc Herald Times - 9/28/1964 ...America suspect', 'that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....policei Col. Julm II. treund of .phrase book guaranteed to set n Signed) Arthur Post.....l I tions. court proceedings, or the1 .RIGHT of individuals to a fair i trial. i.....and transmitter of and announce so the book Published September 28, 1964 as and the.. Manitowoc, Wisconsin Monday, September 28, 1964 943 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/5/1961 ...France, where the shadow of renewed RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY hovers constantly as a threat.....survive. and fires failed to do, as in the book the Beach. Those who adopt this point of.....unhappy because he told me he didn't feel RIGHT. As for Colbert: said Kelly, originally.....is generally reputed to belong to the WING of the National Liberation Movement.. Edwardsville, Illinois Tuesday, September 05, 1961 620 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/16/1965 ...Marquis Childs. You know that RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY with its full time.....be longer than 350 words. We reserve the RIGHT to edit and conden.se letters. Letters.....land. These 44 words give the States the RIGHT to o u tlaw labor contracts which.....an effort to force 20 states to repeal the "RIGHT-towork" laws or to prevent their.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, April 16, 1965 604 k --------------------------------------------------------------- BELTWAY BANDIT (25 January 1978) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Crime Rate Is Issue in Alexandria As Council Campaigns Progress; Recruitment Proposal Legion's Proposal Candidate's Statement By Maurine McLaughlin Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 14, 1967. p. B3 (1 page): Brown said that more cooperation is necessary among area police forces to combat "Beltway bandits" who use high-speed highways to move quickly from suburb to suburb. 2. Fairfax County Beltway Bandit Gets 30 Years The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1968. p. B3 (1 page) --------------------------------------------------------------- BLEEDING HEART (LIBERLS) (24 February 1940) (JSTOR) Political Name Calling Fon W. Boardman, Jr. American Speech, Vol. 15, No. 4. (Dec., 1940), pp. 353-356. Pg. 354: The New Dealers became..._drunken sailor spenders_... Pegler too has coined, or given prominence to, a fair share of unfair words, but he has not restricted his name-calling to those in public office to as great an extent as has Johnson. He has looked at prominent liberals and shouted _big-name bleeding hearts_ and _double domes_. In the same vein he has referred to _the bleeding-heart journalists of the New Deal_. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Pegler" + "bleeding heart(s)") Appleton Post Crescent - 4/8/1940 ...s Magna Charta as it has been called by the BLEEDING-HEART journalists of the New Deal.....has taken as the characters for her book, "Saga of such people as Olav Haraldsson.....April 8, 1940 APPLETON POST-CRESCENT PEGLER Wonders Just What Powers, Duties A.F.....in "Constance Garden Notebook." A handy book of reference on the animal kingdom which.. Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, April 08, 1940 819 k Appleton Post Crescent - 10/11/1940 ...who also appealed to the pity .of the BLEEDING-HEART humani tarians and was given a.....o Pay for a Lot of Fancy Stuff BY WE8TBROOK PEGLER New York An economic royalist of my.....be.explained, for her satisfaction, if not PEGLER for her pleasure, that it was spent in.. Appleton, Wisconsin Friday, October 11, 1940 853 k Appleton Post Crescent - 2/24/1940 ...This is a familiar trick. It permits the BLEEDING-HEART liberal to shade the j which.....Kaukauna Second Team Loses, 26-25 PEGLER Says Liberals Ought To Sit Down, Take.....I have seen it done often, even by big-name BLEEDING ble-domes whom you would give credit.....Inventory BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New The fatal defect of that which we.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, February 24, 1940 774 k Appleton Post Crescent - 1/8/1938 ...of any professional or semi-pro BLEEDING HEART who clamors that not a single.....disease. Another was reported a few days PEGLER Wonders How Come Lynching Bill Is So.....Vital BV WESTBROOK PEGLER New York Sudden death is common in.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, January 08, 1938 830 k Appleton Post Crescent - 1/15/1938 ...down for a rr.ir.utc. I asked him if old BLEEDING HEART Broun had been'in. and he said.....Added to Board at Forest Junction Session PEGLER Writes Story of BY WESTBROOK PEGLER.....sumof 422.80. If these do not bring their book value the reported shortage much larger.....points as given in the American Kennel Club book. Purebred Dogs, published in 1935. Skull.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, January 15, 1938 928 k Appleton Post Crescent - 8/23/1940 ...the master of two highsuburban homes. The BLEEDING-HEART business obviously is a pretty.....in night at Theda Clark hospital The book list for high school stui the upstairs.....or Colonel W. E. Hasj BY WESTBROOK PEGLER eltine. Ripon manufacturer, New There.....professional asserted both countries had bt HEART, but in either case a disadvantageous.. Appleton, Wisconsin Friday, August 23, 1940 842 k Appleton Post Crescent - 7/23/1940 ...cr on. Mr Roosevclts ivy league friends and BLEEDING HEART coatwould surround himself.....of 1929. The late C. B. cy of this city was PEGLER Sees Parallel Between Farley and Uncle.....Will Gibson BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New Here are points in which the long.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 23, 1940 920 k Appleton Post Crescent - 7/2/1940 ...power of the closed shop. Any communist or BLEEDING-HEART weekly or improvised fake.....job." art: Ida Lupino. Photoed with] it's a book profit, however, forj Soderberg received.....For Purging Guild of Reds BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New Thc editor of a little monthly.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 02, 1940 919 k Nevada State Journal - 1/9/1938 ...of any professional or semipro BLEEDING HEART who clamors that not a single.....It Implies that the South is ByWestbrook PEGLER find reasons why -the killings in the.. Reno, Nevada Sunday, January 09, 1938 708 k Nevada State Journal - 1/18/1938 ...sat down for a minute. I asked him if old BLEEDING HEART Broun had been in. and he said.....regarded as confidential, and the Navy code book had lead in the covets so when thrown.....and ignored. FAIR ENOUGH ByWestbrook PEGLER ._ nvTewed (bit erinm ketew are thoae.....my own business when he started yelling "PEGLER sells lousy What am I supposed to do.. Reno, Nevada Tuesday, January 18, 1938 692 k Appleton Post Crescent - 10/2/1940 ...of holding com1 the generosity of the BLEEDING HEARTS I Panies. of the New Deal.....990 930 948 959 895 860 9te 1008 804 985 PEGLER Would Like Open Air Probe of the Whole.....New Deal BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New York I wish it were possible to.....hands out west. j Winnebago county assembly PEGLER He was what we called a character.. Appleton, Wisconsin Wednesday, October 02, 1940 760 k Appleton Post Crescent - 9/17/1940 ...Remembering how arrogantly the hand washing BLEEDING HEARTS of the New Deal spoke c their.....New Deal Gets a New 'Mandate BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New As I look at it, this presidential.....they are head-weary now and, givenfour yeai PEGLER more, the New Deal would really bang.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, September 17, 1940 843 k Appleton Post Crescent - 7/19/1940 ...But when 'two such wet-eye professional BLEEDING-HEARTS of the New Deal as Harry.....Owls Kappell's Taverns W. 1 1 1 0 0 0 PEGLER Calls Hopkins and Ickes Two Virtue.....t tell me that Mr. Ickes i frauds among the BLEEDING-HEARTS. respect, would have felt.....the home plate safely. Q BY WESTBROOK PEGLER flj Political expediency makes great.. Appleton, Wisconsin Friday, July 19, 1940 780 k Appleton Post Crescent - 11/15/1938 ...than vindication. Several professional BLEEDING HEARTS broke down and bawled over.....this can be done. Ask for our Dream Kitchen Book and Free estimates. Garage Lining Line.....POST-CRESCENT CLASSIFIED ADS BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New York Nobody appreciates the doctor.....for parties in the evening. Ask for free book ideas. Table Tennis Play indoor tennis.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, November 15, 1938 720 k Nevada State Journal - 6/21/1939 ...among the many professional and semi-pro BLEEDING HEARTS who are ever alert to defend.....been no attempt to prove that he makes a book or runs a gambling house in Mr.....INSAN ANTONIOJexas FAIR ENOUGH By Westbrook PEGLER Peg Takes Slap at Mayor La Guardia for.....are being made in the upper air In his new book, "In Blood and Maury Maverick produces a.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, June 21, 1939 647 k Appleton Post Crescent - 10/3/1939 ...Places If Lindbergh is friendly to these j BLEEDING HEARTS who squirted scorn ly. a war.....the sincerity of those arrayed beside them. PEGLER Mr. Browder has abandoned the old.. Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, October 03, 1939 748 k Mansfield News Journal - 11/15/1938 ...than vindication. Several professional BLEEDING HEARTS broke down and bawled over.....Case Not Borne Out By the Facts WESTBROOK PEGLER NEW Nobody appreciates -the doctor's.. Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, November 15, 1938 799 k From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Mar 8 03:39:21 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:39:21 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:37:27 -0500 Grant Barrett > ridiculous things such as teach one broad Southern accent, which is > I > guess why you tend to get characters supposedly from Texas sounding > like they're from Alabama and vice versa. We recently spent some time in the deep South. I had been to Florida many times, but never spent time wandering around Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and east Texas. My daughter, who lives among them, thought I was making fun because I was beginning to speak with a rural Southern drawl. I hadn't even noticed. When I was a youth, I was quite involved in church work which took me to many national meetings where Southerners predominated. (Hint: it wasn't Christian Science.) I always came back with an accent noticeable to my northern friends and which lingered for several days. Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to many people or just me? D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Mar 8 14:24:31 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:24:31 -0000 Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices Message-ID: Can any racing man or woman help? I quote from Clarence Cullen _Tales of the Ex-Tanks_ (1899-1900) 364: "Somehow or another," went on Ex-Tank No. 27, irrelevantly and dreamily, " I could n-o-t, not, get 'em right that winter. They may have been running for Hogan, but they weren't running for me. When I'd dig a sleeper up, and get it right, and lose rest waiting for the day to go down the line on it, confidently expecting it 'ud be 30 to 1 or better, the word got out every time, by the under-ground, or some way or another, and the skate 'ud prance to the post with 1 to 3 on chalked in front of his name [...] Every one that I looked over and saw worked at grey dawn and salted down as the right goods the next time he went to the pump for long money had a Hanover or a Hindoo price tacked to him when the slates went up. So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price. I can see what it means: short odds, but why? Something to do with the 'H'? No sign in OED, HDAS, Mathews' Americanisms etc. Jonathon Green From orinkh at CARR.ORG Mon Mar 8 14:36:03 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:36:03 -0500 Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices Message-ID: Hanover Shoe Stables (today called Hanover Shoe Farms) near Hanover, PA is a stud for standard thoroughbreds used in harness racing; it started up around the turn of the 20th century. But I don't know of any dots that would connect this place with your phrases. Orin Hargraves From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 8 14:57:45 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 06:57:45 -0800 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B9719@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >From: "Dave Wilton" >Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires >This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. --- "Baker, John" wrote: >> Isn't this related to the difference between >> "good" and "bad" fires? See >> http://www.smokeybear.com/good-bad.asp. The old >> language suggested that all forest fires are bad, >> which is no longer the Forest Service's position. >> >> John Baker Could be, but "wildfires" includes fires where there are no trees, and the USFS administers a lot of land where there are no trees. "Wildfire" encompasses uncontrolled fire on all lands, irrespective of cover, ownership or administration. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 8 15:02:47 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:02:47 -0500 Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price. Hindoo and Hanover were two famous racehorses in the late 19th century. I think they were relatives. Googling for <> will find a few references. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 8 15:08:09 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices:corrigendum In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040308100031.02f0c6c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >Hindoo and Hanover were two famous racehorses in the late 19th century. I >think they were relatives. Googling for <> will find a few >references. Maybe <> would be better. Hoodoo was another relative. -- Doug Wilson From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Mar 8 15:43:25 2004 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:43:25 -0000 Subject: Hindoo and Hanover Message-ID: Many thanks for those responses. _Now_ I understand. So they're not, as I had hoped, names for a particular wager. Jonathon Green From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Mon Mar 8 16:10:54 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:10:54 -0600 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: <0HU80054MKMJDO@smtp2.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of audiotapes from across the U.S. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 8 16:04:08 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:04:08 -0500 Subject: doesn't/don't Message-ID: A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject for the past month or so. I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the first personal singular in correct usage? Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 16:06:48 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:06:48 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: <20040308.090306.-209453.0.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 10:39 PM -0500 3/7/04, Duane Campbell wrote: > >Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to >many people or just me? > > Not just to you; the process is virulent among football coaches, who have been known to acquire a southern accent after a single exposure when changing planes at Hartsfield Airport. larry horn From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Mon Mar 8 15:20:47 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:20:47 -0500 Subject: Rockefeller Gesture; Reverse McCarthyism; Bleeding Heart; Beltway Bandit Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:40:43 -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > REVERSE McCARTHYISM (March 1975) I am uncertain from context just what reverse McCarthyism is. I have often thought that the use of the word "racist" by some civil rights activists was McCarthyism, i.e., using an epithet to supress any disagreement as McCarthy and his ilk used "communist." Is this what is being called reverse McCarthyism? That would be not the technique being reversed but the political leaning. FWIW, I was present and witnessed the Rockefeller gesture at the Binghamton NY airport. My moment in history. D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 16:22:16 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:22:16 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: <20040308145745.22100.qmail@web9704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote: > >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >>From: "Dave Wilton" >>Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires > >>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note >that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... > >Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. > Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila the Hun have in common?" larry horn From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:02:46 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:02:46 -0500 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <200403080501.i28515vq020068@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn >>> As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice distribution for quite some time. <<< It's productive. No one has mentioned "debug" yet (OED 1945 in the common current sense [or an obvious immediate ancestor]). But this use with "gay" is an extension. I like it. ... Ah. OED says "de-" was used similarly in Latin(1), and shows longstanding denominal use in English(2). s.v. de-, prefix: (1) [The long vowels are displayed in OED OnLine with graphics that don't paste and I don't have the time to type them all in again.] In Latin, de- had also the function of undoing or reversing the action of a verb, e.g. armre to arm, dearmre to disarm, decorre to grace, ddecorre to disgrace, jungre to join, djungre to unyoke, vlre to veil, dvlre to unveil, and of forming verbs of similar type from substantives, as dearture to dismember, from artus member, joint, dcollre to behead, from collum neck, dcorticre to deprive of bark, from corticem bark, dflrre to rob of its flowers, from flrem flower. (2) 2. Less frequently verbs (and their derivatives) are formed by prefixing de- to a noun (cf. L. dfmre, F. défroquer), with the sense: a. To deprive, divest, free from, or rid of the thing in question: as DEBOWEL (1375), deflesh, defoliage, deglaze, deglycerin, dehandle, delawn, demast, demiracle, demonastery, depark, deprivilege, deprotestant, detenant, detruth; depetticoated, dereligioned ppl. adjs.; de-legitimation. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Mar 8 17:09:30 2004 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:09:30 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040308101019.029e27b0@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: How are these made available? Grant On Mar 8, 2004, at 11:10, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of > audiotapes > from across the U.S. > From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Mar 8 17:04:37 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:04:37 +0000 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Incidentally, I remember (from the late 80s/early 90s) the humorous term for 'de-gaying' one's home was 'straightening up'. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:04:52 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:04:52 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You've got me. What DO (or did) they have in common? At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote: >> >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >>>From: "Dave Wilton" >>>Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires >> >>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note >>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... >> >>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. >Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila >the Hun have in common?" > >larry horn From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:32:26 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:32:26 -0600 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: <001001c40527$058e1ec0$6a28bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: >A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject >for the past month or so. > >I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. > >Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the >first personal singular in correct usage? It hasn't as far as I know. You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I can't say that. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From panis at PACBELL.NET Mon Mar 8 17:34:51 2004 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:34:51 -0800 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: <200403081714.i28HEY23002077@mtaw3.prodigy.net> Message-ID: Dr M Lynne Murphy wrote: >Incidentally, I remember (from the late 80s/early 90s) the humorous term >for 'de-gaying' one's home was 'straightening up'. This reminded me of the Romanovsky and Phillips song, "Straightening Up the House" from their _Emotional Rollercoaster_ (1988): http://www.elyrics.net/go/r/Romanovsky%20&%20Phillips%20Lyrics/Straightening%20Up%20The%20House%20Lyrics/ John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis at pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:35:17 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:35:17 -0500 Subject: De-gaying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:02 PM -0500 3/8/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >From: Laurence Horn > > >>> >As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the >object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same >daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice >distribution for quite some time. > <<< > >It's productive. No one has mentioned "debug" yet (OED 1945 in the >common current sense [or an obvious immediate ancestor]). > >But this use with "gay" is an extension. I like it. > >... Ah. OED says "de-" was used similarly in Latin(1), and shows >longstanding denominal use in English(2). > >s.v. de-, prefix: The entry below exemplifies the not infrequent deleterious effects of the non-theoretical approach of the OED, which leads to a conflation of different patterns here and elsewhere. An item like "de-legitimation" is not a denominal verb, but a nominalized de-verbal ("delegitimate", akin to modern "delegitimize"). But the other examples look like true denominals. Both "de-" and "un-" can be used for forming denominal verbs, but the general pattern is that the latter can be used more freely when the corresponding unprefixed verb has an independent existence, even one with the same meaning ("unworm" a puppy, "unskin" an orange). While un- can form un-nouns, un-verbs, and of course un-adjectives, but in each case it tends to leave the part of speech unaffected (nouns from nouns, etc.). "Debug" is more natural than "unbug" because there's no verb "to bug" in the relevant sense, and similarly for "de-stale" and "de-gay". Compare these recent pop song with productive reversative un-verb formations based on verbs: (1) Un-break my heart Say you'll love me again Undo this hurt you caused When you walked out the door And walked outta my life Un-cry these tears I cried so many nights ======== (2) You can't uncry the tears that you've cried You can't unshoot that gun You can't unlive the life that you've lived (You gotta go on, go on) Larry Horn > >(1) [The long vowels are displayed in OED OnLine with graphics that >don't paste and I don't have the time to type them all in again.] > >In Latin, de- had also the function of undoing or reversing the action >of a verb, e.g. armre to arm, dearmre to disarm, decorre to grace, >ddecorre to disgrace, jungre to join, djungre to unyoke, vlre to veil, >dvlre to unveil, and of forming verbs of similar type from substantives, >as dearture to dismember, from artus member, joint, dcollre to behead, >from collum neck, dcorticre to deprive of bark, from corticem bark, >dflrre to rob of its flowers, from flrem flower. > >(2) > 2. Less frequently verbs (and their derivatives) are formed by >prefixing de- to a noun (cf. L. dfmre, F. défroquer), with the sense: >a. To deprive, divest, free from, or rid of the thing in question: as >DEBOWEL (1375), deflesh, defoliage, deglaze, deglycerin, dehandle, >delawn, demast, demiracle, demonastery, depark, deprivilege, >deprotestant, detenant, detruth; depetticoated, dereligioned ppl. adjs.; >de-legitimation. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:37:11 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:37:11 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040308120419.0115e898@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >You've got me. What DO (or did) they have in common? Same middle name. LH > >At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote: >>> >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >>>>From: "Dave Wilton" >>>>Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires >>> >>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note >>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... >>> >>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. >>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila >>the Hun have in common?" >> >>larry horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:43:13 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:43:13 -0500 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:32 AM -0600 3/8/04, Barbara Need wrote: >At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: >>A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject >>for the past month or so. >> >>I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. >> >>Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the >>first personal singular in correct usage? > >It hasn't as far as I know. > >You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I >can't say that. > >Barbara Need >UChicago--Linguistics It's a VERY recent change; you might have missed it. Seriously, I think Page meant "was replaced by" rather than "replaced". larry horn From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU Mon Mar 8 19:04:08 2004 From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:04:08 -0600 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: <0HU9006LTOZZT6@smtp2.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: You can contact me at this address. At this point they are still on cassettes, though we are in the process of making CDs. The cost is $8 per side of a cassette. The best way to see if we have what people are interested in is to look at the Informant list in the front matter to Volume I. There you can see what communities we did interviews in, see which Informants made tape recordings, and find out details of age, sex, race, amount of education, and community type for each one. At 12:09 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Re: Actor's Dialects >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >How are these made available? > >Grant > >On Mar 8, 2004, at 11:10, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > > > For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of > > audiotapes > > from across the U.S. > > From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 8 19:18:58 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:18:58 -0600 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject >>>for the past month or so. >>> >>>I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. >>> >>>Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the >>>first personal singular in correct usage? >> >>It hasn't as far as I know. >> >>You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I >>can't say that. > >It's a VERY recent change; you might have missed it. Well, I know I am often behind the times in adopting linguistic innovations, but you would think I would have heard about this. :-) >Seriously, I think Page meant "was replaced by" rather than "replaced". That's not an improvement. doesn't was never standard for 1 person singular. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 8 19:04:22 2004 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:04:22 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ugh! At 12:37 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>You've got me. What DO (or did) they have in common? > >Same middle name. > >LH > >> >>At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote: >>>> >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >>>>>From: "Dave Wilton" >>>>>Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires >>>> >>>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note >>>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... >>>> >>>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. >>>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila >>>the Hun have in common?" >>> >>>larry horn From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 8 19:29:25 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:29:25 -0800 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: <200403080556.1b0lf51PW3NZFjX0@robin> Message-ID: >Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to >many people or just me? When I was in the 5th grade we drove down to Atlanta from NYC to visit relatives. By the time we got there, my accent had gotten so thick my mother said she could no longer understand me. In another example, my husband - born in Oklahoma, BA from UT Austin - was reading "Semi Tough." His accent started coming back and I was ready to kick him by the time he finished the damn book. Rima From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 8 19:29:45 2004 From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:29:45 -0700 Subject: Actor's Dialects Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 8 19:50:23 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:50:23 -0800 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" Message-ID: I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air," who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all). Among the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker," "piss off" (in the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David wanted to know if those words would in fact have been current in the language of the period. I note that both the OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in 1891 for the earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first cite of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from 1937. In the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how long such terms can live in speech without being recorded), does the use of the words in "Deadwood" seem authentic? I'd appreciate it if you could copy David Bianculli on any response. Geoff Nunberg From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Mar 8 20:29:46 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:29:46 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are there any scripts we can look at? On Mar 8, 2004, at 14:50, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > I note that both the OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in > 1891 for the earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first > cite of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from 1937. In > the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how long such terms can > live in speech without being recorded), does the use of the words in > "Deadwood" seem authentic? -- Grant Barrett Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Oxford University Press American Dialect Society webmaster http://www.americandialect.org/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 20:45:29 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:45:29 -0500 Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040308140358.01f9bbb0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Ugh! It's your basic third-grade joke. Your standards need parameterized. larry horn > >At 12:37 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>>You've got me. What DO (or did) they have in common? >> >>Same middle name. >> >>LH >> >>> >>>At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >>>>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote: >>>>> >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800 >>>>>>From: "Dave Wilton" >>>>>>Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires >>>>> >>>>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note >>>>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ... >>>>> >>>>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays. >>>>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila >>>>the Hun have in common?" >>>> >>>>larry horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 8 20:51:18 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:51:18 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:29 AM -0800 3/8/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to >>many people or just me? > >When I was in the 5th grade we drove down to Atlanta from NYC to >visit relatives. By the time we got there, my accent had gotten so >thick my mother said she could no longer understand me. There's a nice instance of this in the "American Tongues" video, in which a Yale undergrad describes how her new boyfriend was driving her south to meet his family and his southern accent increased with every mile on the trip, until (IIRC) she jumped out of the car and took a train back north. > In another >example, my husband - born in Oklahoma, BA from UT Austin - was >reading "Semi Tough." His accent started coming back and I was ready >to kick him by the time he finished the damn book. > See, it's that synergy with football. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 8 20:57:55 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:57:55 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:50:23AM -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air," > who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in > the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the > setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all). They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language? Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity specialists getting contacted by them with offers of money in exchange for accuracy ;-(. > Among the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker," > "piss off" (in the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David > wanted to know if those words would in fact have been > current in the language of the period. I note that both the > OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in 1891 for the > earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first cite > of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from > 1937. In the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how > long such terms can live in speech without being recorded), > does the use of the words in "Deadwood" seem authentic? _Cocksucker_ was in use in the 1860s as a term of contempt (the earliest literal example I know of is from the 1880s, and comes from Fred Shapiro), _pace_ HDAS and OED. I don't know how common it could have been--it took a lot of effort to find this quote, but as you note this is not the sort of thing that would have been written down much. (OTOH, though, there's no source that anyone could have checked that would have revealed this information, so much for their authenticity.) _piss off_ we have earlier evidence for but nothing _near_ the 1860s, and it would surprise me greatly if it was in use then. Same for _shitface_, though perhaps it would surprise me less. This reminds me of _Titanic._ There was all this talk about how they went to the original carpet manufacturer to have the carpets re-woven in the same pattern, and stuff like that, but I was _stunned_ with how awful the language was. (Also, of course, the things that people _said_ were inauthentic about the language were not anachronisms, but that's often the case.) There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten his name. Jesse Sheidlower OED/HDAS From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Mar 8 22:32:42 2004 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:32:42 -0600 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" Message-ID: Yeah, what was his name again? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" (snip) > There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested > in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten > his name. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED/HDAS > From debaron at UIUC.EDU Mon Mar 8 22:28:47 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:28:47 -0600 Subject: obscene words from deadwood Message-ID: Geoff, you could tell David Bianculli this: It's great to get pissed off at imprecise claims to accuracy on the part of scriptwriters, but what degree of accuracy can we realistically demand from fiction, anyway? I had one college instructor who explained Keats' "error" in having Cortez discover the Pacific with this wild surmise: as Keats discovers Chapman's Homer, second-hand and in translation, so Cortez came to the ocean after Balboa. Of course, I have no idea whether Cortez reached the Pacific in his travels, but I supposed he did. Another prof, who was actually a minor poet as well as a critic, could never forgive Keats for the mistake, as he never forgave some mystery writer--possibly Erle Stanley Gardner--for having a fictional train from LA to Denver travel on a schedule that the real train of the same name never followed. The Earl of Roscommon wrote in his poem, "Horace's Art of Poetry," (long before Keats nodded), "[I]n a Poem elegantly writ, I will not quarrel with a slight mistake . . . But in long Works, Sleep will sometimes surprize,/ Homer himself hath been observ'd to nodd." Of course there's a special irony about a poet saying in a poem that it's okay for poets to make mistakes . . . there must be a figure of speech to characterize that. But of course, HBO's a horse of a different, well, stripe. [sic] Dennis Dennis Baron office: 217-244-0568 Professor of English and Linguistics mobile: 217-840-0776 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 debaron at uiuc.edu Dennis Baron debaron at uiuc.edu Dept. of English University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 english dept.: 217-333-2390 From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 8 22:51:52 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:51:52 -0500 Subject: obscene words from deadwood In-Reply-To: <20cb0f7f.1e0ec412.8a24300@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 04:28:47PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote: > Geoff, you could tell David Bianculli this: > > It's great to get pissed off at imprecise claims to accuracy >on the part of scriptwriters, but what degree of accuracy can >we realistically demand from fiction, anyway? [...] Dennis, I do think that the issue of linguistic accuracy in films or other works of fiction is an interesting one, and I agree that in many cases we shouldn't expect accuracy at all. An impression of accuracy is much more important, even if it's completely inaccurate in reality--cf. an insistence on using RP for Shakespeare when modern American English is probably closer to how things sounded (help me out here, Dale), or even using modern Scots actors to represent someone speaking Gaelic--might as well give 'em a French accent. I know this is a subject of interest to the original-instruments crowd in early music, too. But anyway my point is that even if we accept the fiction in fiction, there are these cases when the fiction is explicity freighted with claims to its extreme accuracy in particular areas--the re-weaving of the Titanic's carpets is one example. So if the producers of this show said, "We're doing a cowboy show, and you will think it's authentic because there are tumbleweeds and cowboy hats and people saying "howdy" a lot," that's one thing. But if they said, "We dug up the corpse of Bill Hickok so we could see the style of the suit he buried him in, and we spoke to botanical historians to make sure the kind of tumbleweeds are the kind that would have been there, but we're still going to have people saying "cowpoke" because that's what the viewers expect, even though the term really dates from the 1920s", well, that's bad. And really bad would be if they said "We're really accurate with language, so we're putting in all sorts of authentic stuff like "cowpoke", and I know it's authentic because it sounds authentic". And that seems to be what's happening here. Jesse Sheidlower From debaron at UIUC.EDU Mon Mar 8 23:14:27 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:14:27 -0600 Subject: obscene words from deadwood In-Reply-To: <200403082251.i28MptPw020143@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I think they're probably thinking, language-wise, that using words like piss off and cocksucker are authentic because they're gritty, and they equate grit in dialogue with realism. Not just grit, but bodily noises, as in the post-bean scene in Blazing Saddles. Everybody knows that cowpokes used bad language, nu? Dennis From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 9 00:10:53 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:10:53 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" > They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language? > Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity > specialists getting contacted by them with offers of > money in exchange for accuracy ;-(. They expect you to work for pride, also. :) I just hope they don't try to tell us what cards Wild Bill was holding that fatal day!! Sam Clements From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 00:21:29 2004 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:21:29 EST Subject: obscene words from deadwood Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2004 5:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jester at PANIX.COM writes: Dennis, I do think that the issue of linguistic accuracy in films or other works of fiction is an interesting one, and I agree that in many cases we shouldn't expect accuracy at all. An impression of accuracy is much more important, even if it's completely inaccurate in reality--cf. an insistence on using RP for Shakespeare when modern American English is probably closer to how things sounded Yes, isn't it interesting how in films or TV we run the gamut from the Hogan's Heroes type of show, where we're hearing English with a German accent and expected to accept that they're all speaking German (or how about those really bad generic East-European accents Peter Graves used in Mission Impossible), to the search for authenticity in films like The Passion. Shakespeare's post-vocalic /r/ was certainly more American than RP--some of the vowels would sound more Irish-English (undiphthongized /e/ and /o/), but then again, as my grad adviser used to say--who knows how they actually sounded back then? We can take a stab at it, but so much is guesswork. This reminds me of an interview--I think it was on Fresh Air--with one of the Navajo marines from WWII who was one of the guys used to stump the Japanese by speaking his native language over the airwaves. He was commenting on Windtalker (is that the right title)--the movie about that event, and he was offended by the profanity in the movie--it wasn't like that he said. Some people talked like that, but not that many. I think TV producers like to throw those words in because they imagine it gives ad executives a thrill and might land them another sponsor, not for any desire to be authentic. I also remember watching a movie in high school--Soldier Blue--set in maybe 1875--in which one of the soldiers comments on Candace Bergen's "boobs"-- cheap thrills. It's the kind of thing that stays with you when you're 16. Dale Coye The College of NJ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 04:21:32 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:21:32 EST Subject: Cut the Mustard (1898); Love You Beans & Rice; Milk, Milk, Lemonade Message-ID: Parking tickets from 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. in a room with no air. Life just doesn't get any better than this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CUT THE MUSTARD The RHDAS has 1902 "O. Henry." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Commerce Journal - 3/6/1903 ...recent cold snap was severe enough to CUT THE MUSTARD and lettuce and play sad havoc.....March, bitter and bleak and cold THE day. THE wind goes wailing, THE sky, is gray, THE.....to bridges on THE .public rodds .leading to THE main cities and .towns of THE country. We.....to eat No Go to THE Dining Rooms and learn THE reason why. some it THE meat cubatiiutes.. Commerce, Texas Friday, March 06, 1903 488 k Idaho Daily Statesman - 6/2/1901 ...THEm before It left Home. I am out that he CUT THE MUSTARD in great shape. to put THE.....studs in Cousin Dellie's to CUT Loose and Have agood I guess his head was.....word should appear, ings. THEse Town CUT Ups had onJy Adelbert s cousin tried to.....and in THE cab was THE keen, dark face of THE head of THE secret police. In THE palace.. Boise, Idaho Sunday, June 02, 1901 855 k Anaconda Standard - 5/17/1901 ...Field. THE Spavs couldn't quite CUT THE MUSTARD yesterday afternoon, but THEy 'ca.....Staple Goods and Your Honey's Wor You Can CUT It With an Axe BUT PINS. TACKS AND BROKEN.....from THE sick room in San Francisco; THE condition of THE first lady of THE land.....of THE Union. Each succeeding bulletin was THE signal for THE of a crowd, but THE wires.. Anaconda, Montana Friday, May 17, 1901 845 k Anaconda Standard - 7/11/1901 ...was bobbing up and down, but she couldn't CUT THE MUSTARD. When Wilson got to Ruttrv he.....July THE fire department had some fast work CUT out for it to-night at THE NorTHErn.....THE process of ing THE noise that attracted THE officer. As THE latter approached THE.....which is camped on THE banks oC THE stream. THE wife complained to THE officer that THE.. Anaconda, Montana Thursday, July 11, 1901 887 k Herald Despatch - 5/18/1898 ...THE oTHEr THEir will, if he can CUT THE MUSTARD. tha Camp teke8 muc not want THE.....realize THE forca of THE happily combined. THE two nations an supporting THE world and.....to give op THE job and get out of THE way THE bone stopPOLITICAL GOSSIP. egatee to THE.....carry THE troops THE first starting i at THE second at 1 p. m. and THE las at 2.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, May 18, 1898 786 k Pg. 6?, col. 2: His friends not only insist that he shall be a candidate but insist as well that he shall be the next county judge and McDonald bows to their wishes and will do their will, if he can cut the mustard. Herald Despatch - 4/6/1898 ...John J. Graves, tight but that ha cun't CUT THE MUSTARD. 0. 0. Leforgee, James.....Fix THE Delegation one. S. S. Jack opposed THE idea on THE ground that THE delegates to.....date aroused in THE minda ien5. This was THE first intimation THE feomeofTHE cohorts.....half of THE delecontracts THEm to some of THE oTHEr Rates being from THE country and.. Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, April 06, 1898 766 k Pg. 2, col. 1: It was claimed after the convention that David Patterson would like to be a candidate for the legislature, but some of the young bucks say that Mr. Patterson is all right but that he can't cut the mustard. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I don't have time for these two now. They were nowhere in Newspaperarchive.com? I LOVE YOU ONCE, I LOVE YOU TWICE, I LOVE YOU MORE THAN BEANS AND RICE--9 Google hits, 11 Google Groups hits MILK, MILK, LEMONADE, AROUND THE CORNER FUDGE IS MADE--979 Google hits, 518 Google Groups hits From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 9 04:29:40 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:29:40 -0500 Subject: Cut the Mustard (1898); Love You Beans & Rice; Milk, Milk, Lemonade Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: \> MILK, MILK, LEMONADE, AROUND THE CORNER FUDGE IS MADE--979 Google hits, 518 > Google Groups hits I remember this as one of my first 'dirty' jokes, probably about the mid-1950. I can't recall the exact words, but something about point to your genitals while saying 'lemonade', then "go around the corner, get your hot dogs here." Same thing, I think. Sam Clements It might have been something like "xxx, xxx, lemonade, beer, go around the corner get your hot dogs here"(while pointing at your posterior). From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 9 05:48:10 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:48:10 -0800 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" Message-ID: Thanks for this, Jesse, and to Dennis, Dale et al. for the other comments. Of course we linguists are apt to be more put off by these anachronisms than other people. I think of the story about Edith Head, the famous Hollywood costume designer, who as she was walking out of "Oklahoma!" remarked to her companion: "I don't see what all the fuss is about. The hems are two inches thick!" Geoff >On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:50:23AM -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >> I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air," >> who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in >> the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the >> setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all). > >They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language? >Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity >specialists getting contacted by them with offers of >money in exchange for accuracy ;-(. > >> Among the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker," >> "piss off" (in the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David >> wanted to know if those words would in fact have been >> current in the language of the period. I note that both the >> OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in 1891 for the >> earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first cite >> of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from >> 1937. In the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how >> long such terms can live in speech without being recorded), >> does the use of the words in "Deadwood" seem authentic? > >_Cocksucker_ was in use in the 1860s as a term of contempt >(the earliest literal example I know of is from the 1880s, >and comes from Fred Shapiro), _pace_ HDAS and OED. I don't >know how common it could have been--it took a lot of effort >to find this quote, but as you note this is not the sort >of thing that would have been written down much. (OTOH, >though, there's no source that anyone could have checked >that would have revealed this information, so much for >their authenticity.) > >_piss off_ we have earlier evidence for but nothing _near_ >the 1860s, and it would surprise me greatly if it was in >use then. Same for _shitface_, though perhaps it would >surprise me less. > >This reminds me of _Titanic._ There was all this talk >about how they went to the original carpet manufacturer >to have the carpets re-woven in the same pattern, and >stuff like that, but I was _stunned_ with how awful the >language was. (Also, of course, the things that people >_said_ were inauthentic about the language were not >anachronisms, but that's often the case.) > >There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested >in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten >his name. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED/HDAS From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 06:23:49 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:23:49 EST Subject: Piss in your Cheerios (1990); Must be jelly; White on rice; Stuffed like turkey Message-ID: A few more food phrases. I haven't searched ProQuest. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PISS IN YOUR CHEERIOS IN YOUR CHEERIOS--2,820 Google hits, 2,320 Google Groups hits IN HIS CHEERIOS--193 Google hits, 306 Google Groups hits IN HER CHEERIOS--46 Google hits, 96 Google Groups hits I think I remember this from the late 1970s or early 1980s. The brand name "Cheerios" helps. I haven't seen piss on my "Lucky Charms." Or "Total" piss. So people actually piss on Cheerios? Don't Cheerios go better with milk? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Re: Magic Genie ... Do I have to answer which book I'd pick? I have emailed the poster a copy of Queers Read This. FLAME MODE OFF FLAME MODE ON Who pissed in your Cheerios? ... soc.motss - Feb 24, 1991 by Matt Hucke - View Thread (25 articles) Re: Apology & Commentary ... I think a lot of it is, but I don't think it should be. Look you douche-slurping rodent rectal rapist, who pissed dioxins in your Cheerios? ... alt.mud - Jun 21, 1990 by Vintage Mutant Ganja Technerd - View Thread (4 articles) Re: Ramones! ... Get them. Now. hurry. ---- note: these albums aren't really for everyone. if you don't like speed in your cheerios, forget it. rec.music.misc - Jun 14, 1990 by David M Stern - View Thread (6 articles) Re: IslandiaMap v1.0 in postscript (WARNING: HUGE!!!) ... recently. Don't tell me to be quiet. Don't speak for The People. And don't post after someone pissed in your Cheerios(tm). As I ... alt.mud - Jun 9, 1990 by Russ "Nightfall" Smith - View Thread (12 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MUST BE JELLY MUST BE JELLY--811 Google hits, 735 Google Groups hits "It must be jelly 'cause jam don't shake that way." Also, rarely, "it must be cream 'cause milk don't flow like that." From the song. (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Jules (jujuvoo at bellsouth.net) Subject: Re: IT MUST BE JELLY CAUSE JAM DON'T SHAKE THAT WAY Newsgroups: alt.music.blues Date: 1999/01/06 IT MUST BE JELLY CAUSE JAM DON T SHAKE LIKE THAT Writer(s):WILLIAMS GEORGE MAC GREGOR J CHALMERS SKYLAR SUNNY Publisher(s):MUTUAL MUSIC SOCIETY Performers(s):MILLER GLENN JAMES HARRY BUTTERFIELD B/ORCHESTRA/HERMAN BUTTERFIELD B HERMAN WOODY WAYNE F ARMY AIR FORCE BAND (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) News - 3/4/1944 ...Stem Johnny Comes Lately Easy To AH For It MUST BE JELLY Rainbow Rhapsody Chloe Do.....for the peacetime service. 100.0M May BE Eligible No figures as to the numBEr to BE.....rate is 15 cents and the new rate will BE 20 cents. Insured C. O. D. fees are.. Frederick, Maryland Saturday, March 04, 1944 775 k Lethbridge Herald - 4/1/1944 ...My Man GLENN MILLER Rainbow Rhapsody It MUST BE JELLY RPDO 322 Seventh Street S.....has passed, but still winter seems to BE lingering, for the days are still chilly.....of rural education, and he was pleased to BE back to help adjust those problems.. Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 01, 1944 690 k Gazette And Bulletin - 2/19/1944 ...a Wink Sinatra Si> oFlight BEnny Goodman It MUST BE JELLY Glenn Miller Am I Blue Buster.....WUar-1 Bright >.orUom David Ha rum L Should BE Fun -What'B Tour Jdeat" unt Jenny We opply.....Handy Man Kary M. Talking J[ WJlBC Llf. Can BE B.autt New.-. R. ;Dady WMCA New.-, Pan.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, February 19, 1944 628 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIKE WHITE ON RICE WHITE ON RICE--5,780 Google hits, 5,890 Google Groups hits This was new to several people who discussed it on alt.usage.english amd alt.english.usage in 1998 and 1999. It's been used in football to describe the tight defensive coverage that a cornerback gives to a wide receiver (such as Jerry Rice). (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 12/17/1981 ...from CoONey. I'll be ON him like WHITE ON RICE." CoONey is WHITE, but both men deny a.....black-WHITE rivalry. "There is no color involved.....up more mouths. There's always somebody ON the horizON to take Larry Holmes. You II.....will be scaled from down to They went ON sale Wednesday, according to Bob Halloran.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 17, 1981 479 k (GOOGLE GROUPS) Penn St./Oklahoma/Pac-10 ... Bless you, my boy. The Oklahoma fans, the Big Eight defenders, and even a proponent of the SEC have been on me like white on rice. ... net.sport.football - Jan 8, 1986 by jimb at ISM780B.UUCP - View Thread (5 articles) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- STUFFED LIKE A CHRISTMAS TURKEY STUFFED LIKE A + TURKEY--786 Google hits, 285 Google Groups hits STUFFED AS A + TURKEY--93 Google hits, 67 Google Groups hits Probably 19th century. Bridgeport Standard Telegram - 4/4/1919 ...piped thAt the bAllot box hAd been STUFFED LIKE A ChristmAs TURKEY. There is no use.....hunch thAt JAck Dempsey would tAke him LIKE Dewey took MAnilA. Connie MAck's.. Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, April 04, 1919 693 k Fond Du Lac Reporter - 11/15/1976 ...MiD20s I IS YOUR HOUSE STUFFED LIKE A THANKSGIVING TURKEY? WAnt to spreA d.....your glAssed in porch, pet blinds. You'll LIKE the rest of the house too. CArpeted.....One 12 to 14 ib. Armour StAr, USDA GrAde A TURKEY is the finAl dressing on every deAl.....WILL Believe it possible to find A home LIKE this in good tion for on A 70x132 foot.. Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Monday, November 15, 1976 523 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 06:54:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:54:52 EST Subject: Fat Cat (1925) Message-ID: The HDAS has 1928 for "fat cat," "a wealthy and privileged individual, esp. a financial backer of a political campaign." Sorry, but I'm having trouble with Newspaperarchive and can't open the article at the moment. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Denton Journal - 11/7/1925 ...in the Republican party promises the finest FAT CAT fight ever seen in this State, Frank.....It ough.1 perhaps to be explained that FAT CAT is the significant and revealing name.....as candidate or backer, the magic i words "FAT CAT" ring throughout the wards, precincts.....in a battle for blood. Soon or late every FAT CAT in the party will likely be involved.. Denton, Maryland Saturday, November 07, 1925 673 k Pg. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 9 13:24:34 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:24:34 -0500 Subject: Googleable ADS-L Message-ID: From: "Douglas G. Wilson" : I see that the messages on this list are now found by Google... : Whatever you or I said on the list about (say) "quahogs" three years : ago will be found by anybody googling for "quahogs". Then that interested : person can e-mail you and me at his pleasure to discuss the quahogs : further. Some words may arouse more -- and/or less welcome -- : interest than "quahogs", of course. : Googling for my own name I come up with hundreds of items from the : list. Sometimes it's comforting to know that I have an effectively ungooglable name. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 9 13:41:46 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:41:46 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo Message-ID: From: Dave Wilton : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American undergraduate days a few : years earlier (1981-85). There was no association with gay subculture. I : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days. It was not as common : as 'rents was a few years later. I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early 90s, MD and western PA), but I heard but didn't use 'rents. When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was occasionally used by the students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as short for "Mormon" (the student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according to the shool's website). I always thought this was a fascinating clipping, since (like 'za) it's based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 9 13:41:47 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:41:47 -0500 Subject: Actor's Dialects Message-ID: From: Ray Villegas : I am interested in the way actor's learn an accent for a part in a movie : or play... Just wanted to mention Lewis Herman and Marguerite Shalett Herman's 1947 book _Manual of American dialects for radio, statge and screen, and television_, republished in 1997 by Routledge as _American dialects: A manual for actors, directors, and writers_. I haven't had a chance to proof it for accuracy, but it sits on my bookshelf waiting for a spare moment. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Mar 9 13:57:19 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:57:19 -0800 Subject: starving the beast query Message-ID: I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast" used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in order to take money away from the federal administration and to increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s. Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the phrase originate? Many thanks in advance for your help. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 13:57:53 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:57:53 EST Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800, Dave Wilton complains: > This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note that Smokey The Bear's > tagline has changed to "Only you can prevent wildfires." I don't know when > the shift from "forest fires" occurred, but I heard it in a TV ad today. I > thought it might be language targeted for a California audience, but > "wildfire" is used on the web site www.smokeybear.com. The original "Only you can prevent forest fires" almost scans: 'on-ly ''you / can pre-''vent / ''for-est 'fires i.e. if you ignore the primary accent on the first syllable of "forest" you have three anapests. "Only you can prevent wildfires" doesn't come close to scanning. As to when Smokey the Bear lost his middle name, I have a suspicion that the phrase "Smokey Bear" originated in the Citizens' Band community. At least I don't recall having heard it before the CB fad in 1974. Circa 1980 an Englishwoman asked me "why do you refer to your [state] police officers as 'bears'" and I was able to respond with a straight face, "Because of the hats they wear!" Historical trivia: the custom of having State Troopers wear campaign hats ("Smokey the Bear hats") originated here in New Jersey. It was introduced by the founder of the New Jersey State Police, one H. Norman Schwartzkopf (father of the Gulf War general). - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 14:25:00 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:25:00 EST Subject: ambulance chaser Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496, > I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken." 1496 would be a good trick, since the OED dates "ambulance" in the sense of a single vehicle only from 1854. A lawyer once told me that she was dating a hospital administrator. "My parents are in favor of the match. I'll be the only lawyer with my own fleet of ambulances to chase!" Seriously, if you are interested in legal antedatings of the late 19th/early 20th century (I'm not), one place to look is "The Green Bag", which from 1889 to 1914 pablished articles that "make an argument that merits more than a letter to the editor but fewer than fifty footnotes." I don't know if it has been placed on-line. It has recently been resurrected, see www.greenbag.org Worth quoting: "Green Bag law review. The review just reached its fifth anniversary, at least in its revivedstate. It was born in 1889, but stopped publishing in 1914, and took its name from the green satchels that lawyers from Daniel Webster on into the last century used to carry. It also was a pejorative name for lawyers, roughly equivalent to “ambulance chaser” today." (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:zuslaDOo7bsJ:www.gmu.edu/departments/law/currnews/wry-turn.pdf+%2B%22The+green+bag%22%2Bambulance&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) Aside to Barry Popik: your citation of "Beltway bandit" is for a different sense than the usual one "consultant to the Federal Government", so-called because a large number of such consulting companies have offices in communities along the Washington Beltway, particularly in and around Maclean VA and Greenbelt MD. - James A. Landau (former Beltway bandit) From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 9 14:29:23 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:29:23 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <00e301c405dc$45d70540$84fbab0a@BOWIE> Message-ID: I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in Philly, NJ, and NYC. Ed --- David Bowie wrote: > From: Dave Wilton > > : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American > undergraduate days a few > : years earlier (1981-85). There was no association > with gay subculture. I > : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days. > It was not as common > : as 'rents was a few years later. > > I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early > 90s, MD and western PA), > but I heard but didn't use 'rents. > > When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was > occasionally used by the > students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as > short for "Mormon" (the > student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according > to the shool's website). > I always thought this was a fascinating clipping, > since (like 'za) it's > based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation. > > David Bowie > http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no > chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be > purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it > must be consumed. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 9 14:35:26 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:35:26 -0500 Subject: doesn't/don't Message-ID: I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have uploaded in haste and repented at leisure. Page ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Need" To: Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: Re: doesn't/don't > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: doesn't/don't > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: > >A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject > >for the past month or so. > > > >I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. > > > >Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the > >first personal singular in correct usage? > > It hasn't as far as I know. > > You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I > can't say that. > > Barbara Need > UChicago--Linguistics From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 9 14:58:52 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:58:52 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <20040309142923.78086.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:29 AM -0800 3/9/04, Ed Keer wrote: >I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it >was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in >Philly, NJ, and NYC. > >Ed Is that for [ho]mo, or mo[mentum]? The latter has certainly been around in a sports context for a while. (I'm assuming, given the region, that it wasn't being used to designate "The Big Mo[rmon]", presumably Sean Bradley of BYU fame.) larry horn > >--- David Bowie wrote: >> From: Dave Wilton >> >> : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American >> undergraduate days a few >> : years earlier (1981-85). There was no association >> with gay subculture. I >> : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days. >> It was not as common >> : as 'rents was a few years later. >> >> I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early >> 90s, MD and western PA), >> but I heard but didn't use 'rents. >> >> When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was >> occasionally used by the >> students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as >> short for "Mormon" (the >> student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according >> to the shool's website). >> I always thought this was a fascinating clipping, >> since (like 'za) it's >> based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation. >> >> David Bowie >> http://pmpkn.net/lx >> Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no >> chocolate in the >> house, there is too little; some must be >> purchased. If there is >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; it >> must be consumed. > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Search - Find what youíre looking for faster >http://search.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 9 15:04:25 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:04:25 -0500 Subject: ambulance chaser In-Reply-To: <88.54df79c.2d7f2dbc@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, James A. Landau wrote: > Seriously, if you are interested in legal antedatings of the late 19th/early > 20th century (I'm not), one place to look is "The Green Bag", which from 1889 > to 1914 pablished articles that "make an argument that merits more than a > letter to the editor but fewer than fifty footnotes." I don't know if it has been > placed on-line. It has recently been resurrected, see www.greenbag.org The earliest occurrence in Green Bag is 1902. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 9 15:10:38 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:10:38 -0500 Subject: Hoe Message-ID: A friend of mine who grew up on a farm was puzzled by something he saw written on a wall near where I used to live. It read "(girl's name long since forgotten) is a hoe." He wondered why it would be either a compliment or an insult to call a woman an agricultural implement until he realized that the writer didn't know how to spell ho, a shortened version of whore and didn't realize what he had done. This brings up another problem with the word hoe. Now it is possible that the phrase, "It's a tough road to hoe." refers to the days when gangs used to use hand tools to work on roads but I suspect that the original phrase was "It's a tough row to hoe." which makes more sense in an agricultural context but which city people never thought of when they misheard the sentence. Having hoed a few tough rows in my life but having never hoed a road since that form of road maintenance went out except in rural areas before I was born even though when I grew up my hometown still used horse drawn wagons to repair roads I suspect that it is a simple misunderstanding due to mispronunciation. Even though I was at one time in my life an expert marksman I didn't realize until I was in my twenties that you should not take everything someone tells you lock, stock and barrel and that a flash in the pan referred to anything but a baseball rookie who had a great spring training but who fizzled out once the real season began. Page Stephens From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Tue Mar 9 15:17:25 2004 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:17:25 -0500 Subject: starving the beast query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've done a bit of digging on this term. In the economic sense, I have an early cite from the Washington Post, Oct. 21, 1985, attributed to Stockman, but it could easily go back further (though it is the same one Paul McFedries has at WordSpy, and likely where your colleague found the information). I was more concerned with substantiating the term's existence and meaning than I was with finding an absolute point of origin. In 1992, Sen. Moynihan said something which leads me to believe the Reagan Presidential Library would be the best place to verify the origin of the economic term, particularly in documents relating to the transition team: "The first thing to know about the budget deficit is that it was designed to paralyze domestic policy. I can testify that this is difficult to comprehend. The policy--it was known in the inside as 'starve the beast'--was put in place in the first months of the Reagan administration, having been formulated the previous autumn." There's also a joke I have seen repeatedly as explaining the skeptic's view of "starve the beast" economics. In it, a man, thinking his mule costs too much to feed, gradually cuts its food ration every day. One day the man comes around without his mule and his friends ask, "Where's the mule?" The man says, "Just when I got him down to eating nothing every day, he up and died on me." I do not have cites for this joke. These are probably false leads, but: There is a story from Dial, June 1920, p. 693, which bears a similarity to the "starve the beast" economics detractor's view, though it was more concerned with obstructionist policies. In the tale, titled "A Political Horse," said horse resists all attempts to move, whether it be pulled, pushed, lifted, kicked, beat, lured with oats, flattered, insulted, etc. It goes, "We decided finally that it was of no use and the only weapon we had left to use was--starvation. We would starve the beast until he stood upon his legs, realizing also that the more we starved him, the less would he be able to stand on his legs." The horse moves when bothered by an automobile, however. "Starve the beast" was also used in the Twenties as part of an anti-tuberculosis campaign. How widespread the campaign was, I do not know. I have seen just a handful of ads for the campaign. The cites below have the neither the frequency of occurence nor the ring of a pat phrase like the economic or tubercular "starve the beast." An 1898 article in the Sandusky, Ohio, Morning Star about conditions in Cuba reads, "Men are starved [there] as the laws of this land will not allow the citizens to starve the beast." Another cite from Dec. 1912 in the Sheboygan Press: "Can the most learned savant of Harvard or the Sorbonne tell you anything new about how to starve the beast and nourish the angel in you, anything Marcus Aurelius or Saul of Tarsus had not told?" On Mar 9, 2004, at 08:57, Allen D. Maberry wrote: > I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast" > used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in > order to take money away from the federal administration and to > increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce > spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back > to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s. > > Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it > used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the > phrase originate? > > Many thanks in advance for your help. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > -- Grant Barrett Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang Oxford University Press American Dialect Society webmaster http://www.americandialect.org/ From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 9 15:27:29 2004 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:27:29 -0600 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: <003401c405e3$c49c28e0$be28bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 9:35 -0500 9/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: >I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have uploaded >in haste and repented at leisure. > >Page Well, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. On the other hand, strictly speaking, don't has never been standard for 3rd person singular. The positive forms for 3rd person singular present of do have been either doth or does. I can't think of a time when do was standard for 3s. What makes your friend think it was? Does s/he have any examples? Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Barbara Need" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:32 PM >Subject: Re: doesn't/don't > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Barbara Need >> Subject: Re: doesn't/don't >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >> >> At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: >> >A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject >> >for the past month or so. >> > >> >I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list. >> > >> >Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the >> >first personal singular in correct usage? >> >> It hasn't as far as I know. >> >> You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I >> can't say that. >> >> Barbara Need >> UChicago--Linguistics From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Tue Mar 9 15:45:00 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:45:00 +0000 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > At 9:35 -0500 9/03/04, Page Stephens wrote: >> I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have >> uploaded in haste and repented at leisure. >> >> Page then Barbara Need wrote: > What makes your friend think it was? Does s/he have any examples? > Barbara Need It's not standard, but it's certainly widespread/old (which probably led to the correspondent's friend thinking it must be old standard). My grandmother, who worked as a secretary and later in life authored a local history book (so by no means an illiterate person), generally said 'he/she/it don't', and my father does in casual speech as well, and his sisters say it even more frequently. (My mother, who adored her mother-in-law and who, incidentally, says 'between you and I', still hasn't quite got over that she married into family that says 'it don't'...) DARE has it as 'esp among speakers with little formal educ'--but apparently not any particular region. To my knowledge, such people don't say 'It do', but person agreement is similarly lost in some dialects'/registers' negation of 'be'--i.e., _ain't_. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Tue Mar 9 16:53:13 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:53:13 -0800 Subject: starving the beast query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, The Times, Tuesday, Dec 24, 1974; pg. 16; Issue 59278; col A Babes in the Wood or Great Britain on Ice Category: Business and Finance A Financial Pantomime ... Act I, sc 2: The babes are still benighted, their miserable belongings shrunk even smaller. Enter Denis the Menace, who rushes up to the Babes, embracing them with mock affection. THE MENACE: "Why Babes! What's this? You're fright- ened sore, But shadows of yourselves of yore. Come to my arms -- no need to shriek-- (Aside to audience): I'll squeeze 'em till their last pips squeak! The little dears! They've money yet-- Transfers of capital I'm set To tax away. I'll clinch the squeeze With surcharges on compan- ies. I'll act on ACT and milk 'em dry. What of Inflation? He roars high-- I'd best pretend to wear him down With fiscal fusillade and frown-- But I'll not starve the beast in haste; He might lay my consti- tuency to waste!" At 07:17 AM 3/9/04, Grant wrote: >I've done a bit of digging on this term. In the economic sense, I have >an early cite from the Washington Post, Oct. 21, 1985, attributed to >Stockman, but it could easily go back further (though it is the same >one Paul McFedries has at WordSpy, and likely where your colleague >found the information). I was more concerned with substantiating the >term's existence and meaning than I was with finding an absolute point >of origin. > >In 1992, Sen. Moynihan said something which leads me to believe the >Reagan Presidential Library would be the best place to verify the >origin of the economic term, particularly in documents relating to the >transition team: "The first thing to know about the budget deficit is >that it was designed to paralyze domestic policy. I can testify that >this is difficult to comprehend. The policy--it was known in the inside >as 'starve the beast'--was put in place in the first months of the >Reagan administration, having been formulated the previous autumn." > >There's also a joke I have seen repeatedly as explaining the skeptic's >view of "starve the beast" economics. In it, a man, thinking his mule >costs too much to feed, gradually cuts its food ration every day. One >day the man comes around without his mule and his friends ask, "Where's >the mule?" The man says, "Just when I got him down to eating nothing >every day, he up and died on me." I do not have cites for this joke. > >These are probably false leads, but: > >There is a story from Dial, June 1920, p. 693, which bears a similarity >to the "starve the beast" economics detractor's view, though it was >more concerned with obstructionist policies. In the tale, titled "A >Political Horse," said horse resists all attempts to move, whether it >be pulled, pushed, lifted, kicked, beat, lured with oats, flattered, >insulted, etc. It goes, "We decided finally that it was of no use and >the only weapon we had left to use was--starvation. We would starve the >beast until he stood upon his legs, realizing also that the more we >starved him, the less would he be able to stand on his legs." The horse >moves when bothered by an automobile, however. > >"Starve the beast" was also used in the Twenties as part of an >anti-tuberculosis campaign. How widespread the campaign was, I do not >know. I have seen just a handful of ads for the campaign. > >The cites below have the neither the frequency of occurence nor the >ring of a pat phrase like the economic or tubercular "starve the >beast." > >An 1898 article in the Sandusky, Ohio, Morning Star about conditions in >Cuba reads, "Men are starved [there] as the laws of this land will not >allow the citizens to starve the beast." > >Another cite from Dec. 1912 in the Sheboygan Press: "Can the most >learned savant of Harvard or the Sorbonne tell you anything new about >how to starve the beast and nourish the angel in you, anything Marcus >Aurelius or Saul of Tarsus had not told?" > > >On Mar 9, 2004, at 08:57, Allen D. Maberry wrote: > >>I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast" >>used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in >>order to take money away from the federal administration and to >>increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce >>spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back >>to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s. >> >>Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it >>used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the >>phrase originate? >> >>Many thanks in advance for your help. >> >>allen >>maberry at u.washington.edu >> >-- >Grant Barrett > >Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference >Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang >Oxford University Press > >American Dialect Society webmaster >http://www.americandialect.org/ /* James L. Knight, MLIS, Thomson / Gale - West Region Support james.knight at thomson.com alt jlk at 3geckos.net */ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 9 17:51:37 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:51:37 -0500 Subject: Hector was a pup (1906) Message-ID: Greetings from my half-hour lunch hour in the Bronx. I just had a respondent named Hector. It's a popular Greek name-or is it a popular Spanish name? I expect "Hector was a pup" to be in PUCK, but that's still not ready. A peek at Newspaperarchive before I go back to work: (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Washington Post - 10/30/1910 ...who built And piloted bAlloons wSen HECTOR WAS A PUP, lAt'tr1 cpnstrur'ted And.....GreAtest Middle weight Since Fitzsimmons. S WAS ALWAYS A J GENTLEMAN Fighter Whose CAreer.. Washington, District Of Columbia Sunday, October 30, 1910 818 k Washington Post - 4/14/1906 ...hAs issued from the cAves of orAcle since HECTOR WAS A PUP. We commend it. forget the.. Washington, District Of Columbia Saturday, April 14, 1906 1027 k From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 9 18:18:50 2004 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:18:50 -0800 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, that was for [ho]mo, not mo[mentum]. Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > At 6:29 AM -0800 3/9/04, Ed Keer wrote: > >I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But > it > >was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was > in > >Philly, NJ, and NYC. > > > >Ed > > Is that for [ho]mo, or mo[mentum]? The latter has > certainly been > around in a sports context for a while. (I'm > assuming, given the > region, that it wasn't being used to designate "The > Big Mo[rmon]", > presumably Sean Bradley of BYU fame.) > > larry horn > > > > >--- David Bowie wrote: > >> From: Dave Wilton > >> > >> : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American > >> undergraduate days a few > >> : years earlier (1981-85). There was no > association > >> with gay subculture. I > >> : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school > days. > >> It was not as common > >> : as 'rents was a few years later. > >> > >> I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late > 80s/early > >> 90s, MD and western PA), > >> but I heard but didn't use 'rents. > >> > >> When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo > was > >> occasionally used by the > >> students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as > >> short for "Mormon" (the > >> student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, > according > >> to the shool's website). > >> I always thought this was a fascinating > clipping, > >> since (like 'za) it's > >> based entirely on orthography, not > pronunciation. > >> > >> David Bowie > >> http://pmpkn.net/lx > >> Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is > no > >> chocolate in the > >> house, there is too little; some must be > >> purchased. If there is > >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; > it > >> must be consumed. > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster > >http://search.yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Mar 10 00:20:16 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:20:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of 'hard/tough row to hoe' ( 1829) Message-ID: This was brought up by Page Stephens in his "hoe" message. OED has 1835(Davy Crockett). >From Am. Per. Series, May, 1829, The American Monthly Magazine. page 128 <> Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Mar 10 00:30:33 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:30:33 -0500 Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)/ now 1904 Message-ID: NY Times, July 8, 1904 page 5 <> Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: > Washington Post - 4/14/1906 > ...hAs issued from the cAves of orAcle since HECTOR WAS A PUP. We commend it. forget the.. > Washington, District Of Columbia Saturday, April 14, 1906 1027 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 02:10:18 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:10:18 EST Subject: Straight Dope (1905) Message-ID: Now that Sam's got ProQuest, maybe he can look into this. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Indiana Evening Gazette - 1/18/1905 ...Covoue. of H. ana G W. Is Giving Us STRAIGHT DOPE By PAT SHEEDY. Gambler Art.....Connoisseur AWSO2T is giving us some STRAIGHT DOPE, i HE IS TELLUSTG j -TEE EXACT.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 18, 1905 702 k Coshocton Daily Age - 4/18/1905 ...Jeff that lie is In a real fight. That's STRAIGHT DOPE, and it's something worth.. Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, April 18, 1905 921 k From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Mar 10 02:37:18 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:37:18 -0600 Subject: Does "hurler" predate 1906? Message-ID: My thanx to Wayne McElreavy and Skip McAfee for their replies to my forwarded query from Sam Clements concerning the earliest dating of "hurler" (pitcher). I now share the two replies below. Dickson's baseball dictionary gives 1908, but Sam Clements found an example from 1906. Sam, if you could share your 1906 antedating with us, I'm sure this would be much appreciated. Meanwhile, the two responses I received are reproduced below my signoff. Gerald Cohen P.S. for ads-l: Skip McAfee is Paul Dickson's assistant in preparing new editions of his very useful baseball dictionary. >From: "Wayne McElreavy" >To: >Subject: Re: [19cBB] Does "hurler" predate 1906? >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:20:13 -0500 > > >Here is a citation of hurler describing a hitter: > >LA Times, May 28, 1905. p. III2 "home-run hurlers" >From: Skip McAfee >Subject: The Term "Hurler" > >Gerald: > >The earliest citation we have for "hurler" for the 3rd ed. of the >Dickson Baseball Dictionary is April 5, 1907 (Chicago Tribune). > >However, Sports Illustrated (June 27, 1994), in an article on >vintage base ball, wrote that a pitcher, circa 1858, was known as a >"hurler". The SABR Halsey Hall Chapter's vintage base ball team, >the Quicksteps, following 1858 rules, notes that the pitcher is >"called the 'hurler'." Maybe one of the 19th Century SABR guys can >point to an 1858 document that includes the term "hurler". > >What is your 1906 source? > >Skip McAfee >xerxes7 at earthlink.net From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Mar 10 03:43:51 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:43:51 -0500 Subject: Does "hurler" predate 1906? Message-ID: 21 August, 1906. _Altoona(PA) Mirror_ 1/5 ( A game between Williamport and Altoona--sc) <> Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" > My thanx to Wayne McElreavy and Skip McAfee for their replies to my > forwarded query from Sam Clements concerning the earliest dating of > "hurler" (pitcher). I now share the two replies below. Dickson's > baseball dictionary gives 1908, but Sam Clements found an example > from 1906. Sam, if you could share your 1906 antedating with us, I'm > sure this would be much appreciated. From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Mar 10 04:28:21 2004 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms of political aspirations. A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues -- depending on which end of the political spectrum you are speaking from. Rush Limbaugh's website uses this word in a way which is strongly pejorative (and confusing to someone from outside the US, I suspect). Other potentially sensitive labels, with varying degrees of potency, appear to include: multicultural(ism) abortion, pro-life, pro-choice big business big government These seem to reflect different degrees of politicization as well. I'd also like to know the potential spin status of civil rights progressive civil libertarian - which are harder to pin down. And there is the stack of terms related to gender-preference, same-sex marriage and so on, which are more obviously prone to polarization, both as issues and socio-lexically. This is not just the matter of issues: what interests me is the use of words to attempt to sloganize political aspirants, and thereby to direct public opinion in certain ways. Is this list accurate? I know it depends on where you stand and whom you are trying to attack, but are there others? Is there a study of these sensitive terms? Is there a ranking or league table of the most potentially damaging? How do the spin doctors politicize an issue (or personal characteristic) to the point where its vocabulary can be used as a weapon? Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 04:43:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:43:13 -0500 Subject: Straight Dope (1904); Mojama (1992), Mosciame; Broccoflower (1989) Message-ID: STRAIGHT DOPE Is "straight dope" turning 100? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) MAYOR THINKS HE'S STILL "IT."; LOCAL POLITICS. SAYS THE NOMINATION WILL COME EASILY. Pronounces the World's Fair Pike Not so Bad as it is Said to be Democratio Mayorialty Candidates Come Out from Cover--Dark Horses Barred. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 23, 1904. p. 6 (1 page): "Me and Pinkey kin bring in a solid delegation. We don't make two bites of it down there. Farish is a nice young man, but his friends have got him in wrong. This is straight dope I'm giving you and you can plank your money on it. It's Savage for the Council and Pinkey for Mayor. Why the children say that down our way. They think it is a part of the catechism." PAT SHEEDY FOR LAWSON.; " Those Fellows He Exposes Are Worse Gorillas Than I Am." Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24, 1904. p. 1 (1 page): "Lawson," said Sheedy, "is giving us some straight dope. He is telling the exact truth as I have seen it all my life. ..." --------------------------------------------------------------- MOJAMA, MOSCIAME MOJAMA--2,840 Google hits, 761 Google Groups hits MOSCIAME--585 Google hits, 46 Google Groups hits OED recently did the letter "m." You won't find "mojama" or "mosciame" there. From this week's VILLAGE VOICE: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0410/sietsema.php My favorite dish, hands down, is duck egg with mojama. On a bed of mushroom-dressed fried potatoes sits an outsize sunny-side-up egg that bursts yellowly across the spuds when you cut into it. Around the periphery are curls of mojama, a dried tuna loin that originated in southern Spain. (GOOGLE) http://www.chowhound.com/boards/general10/messages/25845.html Subject: Preserved Tuna: mojama/mosciame From: pv-land-dev.com at worldnet.att.net (Jerome) Posted: February 17, 2002 at 23:25:28 Message: There was someone asking about this a while back and there was a very nice post with a recipe. But this is what I've found over the past few weeks, having eaten some myself. Tuna, primarily yellowfin tuna, has been caught for centuries around Tarifa in the Costa de la Luz in Spain using a complicated tuna net trap called an almadraba. The tuna is processed by taking the loins (lomos) and salting and air-drying them like prosciutto/jamon serrano or bresaola. The name for this product is mojama from (according to http://www.vox.es/consultar.html) the Arabic almuxama, the dried. It is made in other parts of Spain, like Alicante, as well and is available in many places as a tapa (and can be purchased online and in Spanish import shops here). With the Arabic influence, Sicily also makes mojama, called mosciame. It has been made in Sardinia as well and is sometimes used in Ligurian food, especially in the dish Cappon Magro, a fish(apparently Lenten) dish. Non pc note, it seems that a mojama/mosciame was also prepared in the past of mammalian dolphin meat as well as of tuna (one or the other, you can't mix the meat). This is illegal today although one website shows a very distressing picture of a dolphin skeleton with the thought that the dolphin may have been butchered for black market dolphin mosciame (this was in Sardinia) which, acdg to the site, retailed for about one million Italian lire per kilogram. By the way, tuna mojama is amazingly delicious, as tasty and interesting as a prosciutto or a bresaola but with hardly any fat (0.2 g of fat per 100 g). I'm amazed it's not more popular. (FACTIVA)(36 "mojama" hits) TAPAS BARS WITH PLENTY OF TASTE Bryan Miller The New York Times 960 words 9 July 1992 Los Angeles Daily News Valley H2 (...) The specialty here is home-cured sardine fillets that are better than most: firm, minimally salty and with a clean aftertaste. They are particularly good with pan y tomates and Xampanyet, the refreshing house sparkling wine. Try the excellent regional sausages and salami here as well as mojama, a firm, salty, dried tuna fillet. (FACTIVA)(1 "mosciame" hit) Eating Out - Cosi fan tutte? If only. By Terry Durack. 1,162 words 28 October 2001 Independent On Sunday 69 (...) When Sardo first opened in Fitzrovia three years ago, it too did the better-safe-than-sorry Britalian thing with pasta, pizza and the like. More recently, the owner, Romolo Mudu, decided the time was right to make a stand for Sardinian food. He Sardinianed the decor of his small, quietly blond-wood restaurant, and with Sardinian-born Roberto Sardu in the kitchen, ditched the pizza to offer instead an authentic, absorbing listing that includes an elegant spaghetti with shavings of bottarga (dried grey mullet roe) and a grandmotherly dish of malloreddus (maggot-shaped semolina pasta) in a heady tomato and sausage ragu. A specials board lists mosciame di tonno (shavings of sun-dried tuna) one day, and a simple char-grilled swordfish the next. --------------------------------------------------------------- BROCCOFLOWER Word Spy recently did "broccoflower." That's been around; it's even in Wikipedia. The earliest citation given is not the earliest. http://www.wordspy.com/words/broccoflower.asp Earliest Citation: According to the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association, restaurants are finally jumping on the nutrition bandwagon. ... They foresee these trends: ... More exotic fruits and veg — like broccoflower (a cross between cauliflower and broccoli), wild mushrooms and all manner of squash. —Marion Kane, "Peanut butter secret ingredient in stew contest winning recipe," The Toronto Star, March 21, 1990 (FACTIVA) FOOD: SAFETY AND VARIETY TOP FOOD SCIENTISTS AGENDA. (FOOD SERVICE IN THE 90S; INCLUDES RELATED ARTICLES) By Kathi Marshall and Nancy Backas and Nancy Ross Ryan 1,943 words 27 November 1989 Restaurants & Institutions 48 English Copyright Cahners Publishing Co. 1989 (...) Some research projects likely to result in practical applications during the '90s include: * Rice with more protein and better protein value through genetic manipulation. * Flour made from amaranth, an ancient grain with the potential to become a major food source because of its excellent nutritional qualities. * Eat-all melon, about the size of an egg or plum, that has an edible rind and is seedless. So far, the one species developed has a bright yellow rind, pink flesh and sweet melon flavor. The plan is to breed for longer shelf life with an eye toward being able to market the melon in vending machines. * Genetically altered cucumber plants that have virus genes designed to protect cucumbers from disease. * Black truffles grown under controlled conditions and ground into a powder or a thick paste. * A new commodity called a broccoflower, a genetic cross between a broccoli and a cauliflower. The flavor is closer to cauliflower, color and nutritional value closer to broccoli. * Four new blueberry varieties that have more intense flavor and can be harvested over a longer period. * A new nutritious snack food called nunas, colorful beans that pop after cooking a few minutes in oil, hot air or in the microwave. * Citrus fruit that is vacuum-infused and then injected with a natural enzyme that dissolves the white, fleshy substance between the fruit and the peel, making the fruit easy to peel. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 05:53:16 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:53:16 -0500 Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!) Message-ID: PARBAKE/PAR BAKE PARBAKE--273 Google hits, 109 Google Groups hits PAR BAKE--633 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits PARBAKING--25 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits PAR BAKING--124 Google hits, 25 Google Groups hits (OED) parbake, v. nonce-wd. trans. To bake partially, half bake. 1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot and so glaring that very few people were about; a few par-baked figures went quickly by. This is the "parbaking" story in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/dining/10BREA.html (...) Those loaves seemed as crusty and aromatic as Mr. Amaral's handmade breads. The hands that made them, though, were in a factory in New Jersey, where the bread was partly baked and flash frozen in a process called parbaking. Days, weeks or perhaps months ago, the frozen bread was shipped to Hannaford's. This morning, a few minutes in the steel ovens produced bread to order. Over the last four years, a few big parbaking companies have brought supermarket shoppers around the country so-called artisan breads. Sales of the breads — hand-formed, all-natural, dark-crusted loaves once found only in small bake shops — rose 10 percent last year, according to Mintel Consumer Intelligence, a market-research company, even as the rest of the industry cowered before the low-carb onslaught. But many bakers say that parbaking creates artisanal bread without the artisan and that bread makers in several communities have been driven out of business after supermarkets started selling parbaked loaves. Mr. Amaral said he has held his own in the face of the competition. But looking over the massed loaves in Hannaford's bakery department, he concedes that it has been tough. "Customers really have to run the gantlet to find our bread," he said. "I believe that they want to buy local, real artisanal bread. I just hope that they can find it." What is at stake nationwide is an almost $2 billion slice of the $16 billion bread industry. Last year, sales of artisanal and artisan-style bread in supermarkets and big chains nationwide grew faster than any other part of the bread business: four times faster than the business as a whole, and almost 20 times faster than white bread, according to Mintel. (Bread sales have not fallen in the face of low-carb eating, but they have leveled off.) Looking for a walnut-rosemary boule in Honolulu? Ralph's, a supermarket, probably baked some this morning. Kalamata olive bread in Kalamazoo? Try Harding's, which can bake a fresh loaf while you finish shopping. Costco stores bake ciabattas and crusty raisin-walnut loaves. "Foccacia, levain, ciabatta, ficelles — 10 years ago, who knew what a ficelle was?" said Sue Brooks, who is the bakery director for the King Kullen chain on Long Island. "Now customers will come to the counter and say, `You only have baguettes; what happened to the bâtards?' " Parbaking holds benefits for supermarkets and their customers. For the stores, it means lower costs. Since they bake only what they can sell, there is less waste. For customers, it means great selection, and they seem as willing to pay premium prices — as much as $5 a loaf in some markets — as are customers of artisan-bread shops. (...) (OT: OED, how about "ficelle"?--ed.) (FACTIVA)("Par baking"--38 hits) PIZZA PROFITS HINGE ON QUALITY OF BASICS. (INCLUDES RELATED ARTICLE ON CHOOSING PIZZA CHEESES) (FOOD SERVICE CONFERENCE) By Roseanne Harper 725 words 28 September 1992 Supermarket News 42 (...) Randall's layers crusts with shredded cheese before par-baking. "When we top it later, the cheese cover prevents topping juices from seeping into the crust," Quintanilla said. (FACTIVA)("Parbaking"--10 hits) Bobby Rubino's ribs can't lick local favorites // Barbecued shrimp fare better in Westmont Don Rose 762 words 23 August 1985 Chicago Sun-Times FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL 41 (...) The problem with these ribs is fundamentally texture. There is the spongy feeling and somewhat flat taste that comes from parbaking (or parboiling) ribs before finishing them over the open charcoal grill. (FACTIVA) Rising up.(baked and snack foods)(Statistical Data Included) DOUG BURN 1,901 words 1 January 2000 Food in Canada 26 ISSN: 1188-9187; Volume 60; Issue 1 (...) With par-bake an artisan or a commercial bakery partially bakes and then freezes items, which are shipped to in-store bakeries or foodservice outlets for final preparation. Par-baked bagels were introduced in the mid-'80s and baguettes in the mid-'90s by the commercial bakeries. Backerhaus Veit and other artisan operations began introducing a wider range of sweet and savory goods in par-baked format in the early '90s. (...) (FACTIVA) Buffalo-Based Bakery's Ontario, Canada, Plant Marks Fortieth Anniversary By Kevin Purdy, The Buffalo News, N.Y. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News 733 words 16 September 2003 The Buffalo News (KRTBN) English Copyright (C) 2003 KRTBN Knight Ridder Tribune Business News Sep. 16--When Rich Products Corp. began its first operations in Fort Erie 40 years ago, the small plant had just three employees, and Robert Rich Jr. went out to personally pitch products to bakeries and other customers. On Monday, representatives from the Buffalo-based company and Ontario government officials celebrated that anniversary with the completion of an $11.5 million (U.S.) expansion of the plant, one that creates 36 jobs and which company officials believe will make both Rich Products and Fort Erie the leader in partially baked breads and rolls. Howard Rich, president and COO of Rich Products Canada, said the plant is expected to produce over 1 million cases of over 45 partially-baked -- or "par-bake" -- bread products in 2004, a number he expects to grow as demand for value-added products grows. "We're not only going to grow the par-bake business, but dominate the par-bake business in North America," said Rich, who is not an immediate relative of the company's owners. "This shows our belief in the strength of the Canadian marketplace." The Fort Erie plant, which opened in 1963 and now employs 268 people making breads, pizza dough and other baked goods, was expanded by 22,000 square feet to a total of 132,000, making room for $7 million in new equipment. In 2002, the plant was shipping about 3.8 million cases. The par-bake goods coming off the Fort Erie bakery's lines are 80 to 90 percent finished, and will allow Tim Horton's, Subway, supermarket bakeries, and other Rich Products customers to thaw and bake breads and rolls in about 15 minutes, as opposed to two hours for standard bakery dough. Bill Gisel, chief operating officer of Rich Products, said the expansion was planned with an eye on ensuring additional space would be available as the par-bake market grows. "There's a demand for more convenient foods at the store and the consumer level, and par-baked is what a lot of stores are demanding right now. That trend is expected to grow, and we'll be ready to grow with it," said Gisel. (...) (FACTIVA)("Par-bake"--85 hits) FINISHED PRODUCTS MAY REDRESS LABOR SHORTAGE. (SOME SUPERMARKET BAKERIES ADDING FINISHED PRODUCTS FROM OUTSIDE SUPPLIERS) By Judith Springer 1,381 words 25 September 1989 Supermarket News 39 (...) "There's lots of alternatives that you can get away with," Migliara said. "The retailers wanting to open a bakery will have to ask themselves, `Do I go into bake off, thaw-and-sell, par-bake, or sit out for the next five years.'" However, opinions are mixed over whether thaw-and-sell and par-baked programs offer the quality and consistency that retailers want. "Today, your par-baked products are very, very consistent, and you have some very good quality," said Bob Hirsch, corporate bakery buyer, Foodarama Supermarkets, Freehold, N.J. "There's very few items today that are not quality in the par-baked category. It's a lower gross profit, but it's definitely a labor savings. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- DORGAN ON _JOURNAL-AMERICAN_ (!) ("Hot dog," continued) A recent article stated that "Dargan" was a cartoonist on the NEW YORK TIMES--a newspaper that doesn't have cartoons. This "hot dog" article just this week states that Dorgan was writing on the 1906 NEW YORK JOURNAL-AMERICAN--a newspaper that would not even exist until 1941. (NEXIS) Copyright 2004 The San Diego Union-Tribune The San Diego Union-Tribune March 6, 2004 Saturday SECTION: LIFESTYLE; Pg. E-7 LENGTH: 585 words HEADLINE: We pause to relish the hallowed hot dog BYLINE: Don Freeman BODY: The most mouth-wateringly delicious hot dog I have ever tasted was one I ate on a particular night in Dodger Stadium. How pleasing to the taste buds that hot dog was. It still reigns in my memory, this hot dog with all the condiments such as mustard, relish and, to enhance its personality, a smattering of onions. I may have mentioned previously that my affection for the Dodgers is severely limited. By my vote, and I should note that I never heard Red Barber in his prime, Vin Scully, the Dodgers' broadcaster, must rank in his line of work as the best there is and perhaps the best there ever was. Now retired to La Jolla, Buzzie Bavasi wins recognition for having brought the Dodgers his own stature in his time as general manager. Otherwise, if we're talking about the Dodgers it is only the hot dogs in their playpen that merit praise from me. My claim to expertise is the fact that I have eaten hot dogs in major-league ballparks here and there. I have eaten adequate hot dogs in Wrigley Field and in Yankee Stadium and in Shea Stadium in New York and in Boston's Fenway Park, too. You may recall that it was at Fenway, in "Field of Dreams," where James Earl Jones is asked what he wants. "A dog and a beer," he says. Now that is beautiful. A dog and a beer. That is what I will have, too. Legend tells us that the term itself, hot dog, was conceived in 1906 by a superb sports cartoonist named Tad Dorgan who came out of San Francisco and brought his pen to Hearst's old New York Journal American. They say that Dorgan, an imaginative fellow, sketched a dachshund inside an elongated bun. But, the tale goes, Dorgan did not know how to spell dachshund and disdained a dictionary. Accordingly, he wrote the term "hot dog" instead. Good story but perhaps fanciful. As told by the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, the term hot dog was coined in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, which in that era was the home field at various times for both the New York Yankees and the New York Giants. On a chilly April day, concessionaire Harry Stevens was losing money trying to sell ice cream and cold drinks. Whereupon Stevens ordered his vendors to buy up all the "dachshund" sausages they could and insert them into soft rolls. The vendors shouted: "They're red hot! Get your dachshund sausages while they're red hot!" It is said that Dorgan observed the vendors and later, working on deadline, he drew his historic cartoon. Other stories abound on the subject. The famed newspaperman, author and lexicographer H.L. Mencken, known as the Sage of Baltimore, once wrote: "I devoured hot dogs in Baltimore way back in 1886, and they were then very far from newfangled. They contained precisely the same rubber, indigestible pseudo-sausages that millions of Americans now eat, and they leaked the same flabby mustard." On June 11, 1939, President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his first lady, Eleanor, were hosts at a picnic in Hyde Park, N.Y., to the visiting King George VI of England and Queen Elizabeth. The Roosevelts served Nathan's hot dogs and beer to the royals. It was reported that the king was so pleased by the hot dog that he requested a second helping. When, you ask, was a hot dog first sold at a ballgame? The tradition, they say, was begun around 1893 by one Chris Von de Ahe, owner of the St. Louis Browns, whose fans delighted in putting away a dog and a beer. Don Freeman can be reached by fax at (619) 260-5093; or at mailto:don.freeman at uniontrib.com; or at the Union-Tribune, P.O. Box 120191, San Diego, CA 92112-0191. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 08:04:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:04:56 -0500 Subject: Must be jelly (1942); White on rice (1976) Message-ID: From the extra databases. --------------------------------------------------------------- MUST BE JELLY (OCLC WORDLCAT) It must be jelly : 'cause jam don't shake like that / Author: MacGregor, J. C. 1903-; Williams, George, Publication: New York, N.Y. : Mutual Music Society, 1942 In: WFAA collection. Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music : Popular music --------------------------------------------------------------- WHITE ON RICE (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Taking a Lesson From The Good Old Boys; The election of Jimmy Carter brings to center stage that uniquely Southern creature, the Good Old Boy, or Goodoboy. The Goodoboy is as close to the President-elect as his own brother Billy, whose down-home air, unashamed affection for beer and intimate knowledge of gas-pumping and peanutfarming in Plains, Ga., all mark him as an archetype. The writer, Clarke J. "Bubba" Stallworth, is the city editor of the Birmingham (Ala.) News. The Good Old Boys By C.J. Stallworth. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 7, 1976. p. 93 (2 pages) First page: A Goodoboy doesn't get mad often, but when he does, he will knock you winding. If he says: "I'll be on you like a duck on a Junebug," or "like white in rice," or "like ugly on a ape" look out. The most important part of the convention will be seminars in language. (See BOY, K2, Col.3) We will teach visitors words like FIESYOU (as in, "I wouldn't do that, fiesyou"), JEETCHET (or, "Have you eat?") and RATCHEER (this is not what rats do at a football game; use it in this context: "Come over and sit ratcheer by me"). 2. How Dare She Dazzle, But She Does; Rina Myers -- Haw Dare She Dazzle, but She Does By Vertamae GrosvenorSpecial to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 1, 1979. p. D1 (2 pages) (LITERATURE ONLINE) Cliff, Michelle.: A Visit from Mr. Botha [from The Land of Look Behind: prose and poetry (1985), Firebrand Books] 1 Perhaps, he thinks, they could use some advice 2 Before the Black folks are all over them 3 like white on rice. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 16:06:11 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:06:11 EST Subject: 'mo = homo Message-ID: In a message dated Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:29:23 -0800, Ed Keer edkeer at YAHOO.COM> comments: > > I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it > was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in > Philly, NJ, and NYC. If I remember correctly, "big mo" was a catch-phrase of G. Herbert Walker Bush in his unsuccessful race for the Republican presidential nomination in 1980. "Mo" (no preceding apostrophe) was short for "momentum", which, as it turned out, GHWB did not have. IN the very early 1980's I saw a movie on TV about a female tennis star whose nickname was "Little Mo". My recollection is that "Little Mo" was derived from "Mighty Mo", the nickname for the battleship USS Missouri (launched in 1942 or 1943). - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 16:21:39 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:21:39 EST Subject: Hector was a pup (1906) Message-ID: Hector was of course in the Iliad, which dates him as circa 1200 BCE. However, the name "Hector" occurs earlier in Linear B tablets, suggesting that Homer (or someone) attached a Greek name to a Trojan prince whose name (if he existed) had been forgotten. It is, I believe, merely one variant of a number of similar expressions, such as - since Jesus was a lance corporal - since God was a little boy - since xxx was a raw recruit The first is US Marines, of course. A Baptist friend re-rendered it as "since Jesus was lanced corporally." The third is also military, and I have heard several names inserted for "xxx". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 17:18:02 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:18:02 EST Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: In a message dated Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000, "Prof. R. Sussex" writes: > As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in > which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used > to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms > of political aspirations. I cannot believe that a linguist of your experience would be so naive as to think that the USA has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels. Consider "Papist" in English history, or the way during World War I that the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had to change its name. > A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth > tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which > in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues You forget that there is no national political party in the USA named "Liberal", nor is there one named "Conservative". (There is one of each in New York State, but neither has any presence outside New York.) Hence "liberal" and "conservative" are not constrained to be applied only to formal members of formal parties, but rather apply ONLY to ideas/ideologies/biases/prejudices. The problem with the term "liberal" in the USA is that it has long been overtaken by events. The meaning of the term, in US politics, was fairly clear during say Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration (1933-1945). But that was more than two generations ago. Many of the political battles of Roosevelt's day are no longer relevant, whereas many of today's issues were not even thought of in his day. Unfortunately the word "liberal" has been forced to stay in use all these years. Result: the term "liberal" is no longer meaningful, due to being obsolete. Example: most people consider President Clinton to be a "liberal", yet far from being "tax-and-spend" he put a lot of effort into cutting budget deficits. By the standards of US politics, that made him a conservative (at least on this issue). Yet many of the people who supported Clinton considered themselves to be liberals, and many of those who opposed him considered themselves conservatives. So we have the sight of numerous Clinton-supporters who insist on naming themselves with the meaningless label "liberal". Not surprisingly, their opponents pick up on this self-label, so to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect. Let me repeat the above paragraph. So we have the sight of numerous Clinton-dislikers who insist on naming themselves with the meaningless label "conservative". Not surprisingly, their opponents pick up on this self-label, so to them "conservative" is a term of disrespect. What we have is two sets of partisans, each picking up on an obsolete label self-chosen by their opponents and turning this label into a perjorative term. NB: you may not be aware of this, but in the USA "conservative" is every bit as perjorative as "liberal". > I'd also like to know the potential spin status of > civil rights > progressive > civil libertarian > - which are harder to pin down. "Civil rights" is NOT an obsolete term like "liberal". It has, and has had since at least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations". "Progressive" was a widely-used term in the early 20th century, when it referred to such things as women voting and Prohibition. It then, for reasons unclear to me, dropped out of general usage, last appearing in the national consicousness in the Progressive Party of 1948. However, note the "Progressive Conservative Party" in Canada. "Civil libertarian" is almost a non-word, since the term "civil liberties" is almost always associated with the often-controversial American Civil Liberties Union, which has been very active since at least the 1920's. If the ACLU is not involved, then the term "civil liberties" doesn't get used. - James A. Landau From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Mar 10 17:19:12 2004 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:19:12 -0600 Subject: Hector was a pup (1906) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It relates to the Fenimore Cooper Leatherstocking Series. As Natty Bumpo grows old and wanders around the prairie, so does his dog Hector, whom I always thought ended up as toothless as his master. I don't remember if the phrase actually appears in any of the novels. But I'm fairly certain I've read about origin of the phrase before-- can't remember where. On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:21:39 EST "James A. Landau" wrote: > Hector was of course in the Iliad, which dates him as circa 1200 BCE. > However, the name "Hector" occurs earlier in Linear B tablets, suggesting that Homer > (or someone) attached a Greek name to a Trojan prince whose name (if he > existed) had been forgotten. > > It is, I believe, merely one variant of a number of similar expressions, such > as > - since Jesus was a lance corporal > - since God was a little boy > - since xxx was a raw recruit > > The first is US Marines, of course. A Baptist friend re-rendered it as > "since Jesus was lanced corporally." The third is also military, and I have heard > several names inserted for "xxx". > > - James A. Landau From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Wed Mar 10 17:51:41 2004 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:51:41 -0500 Subject: architecting Message-ID: Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a job posted by an investment firm: "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..." Wendalyn Nichols From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Wed Mar 10 17:58:14 2004 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:58:14 -0600 Subject: architecting In-Reply-To: <20040310174844.ZSMQ26459.sccmgwc02.mchsi.com@sccmgwc02.asp.att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Wendalyn Nichols > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:52 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: architecting > > Anyone else run across this verb? I first heard it in the late 1980s while working in the software bizniz, as a trendy replacement for "designing." Bill Le May --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.610 / Virus Database: 390 - Release Date: 3/3/2004 From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Wed Mar 10 18:01:59 2004 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:01:59 -0800 Subject: architecting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040310124941.02742370@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: In IT, architecting = building a systems architecture, eg a detailed plan for a new software system. In this case, 'architecting' appears to be a synonym for 'designing' Vida. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Wendalyn Nichols Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:52 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: architecting Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a job posted by an investment firm: "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..." Wendalyn Nichols From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 10 18:23:02 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:23:02 -0800 Subject: subject-verb agreement Message-ID: the latest addition to my (large and still growing) collection of english usage manuals, handbooks, and dictionaries -- Fowler [H. Ramsey, not H.W.] & Aaron, The Little, Brown Handbook (8th ed., 2001) -- arrived in the mail not long ago, and when i unwrapped it, it fell open to p. 337, where the following rule for subject-verb agreement (the fourth of eleven such rules, some with several subparts) is enunciated: (0) "When parts of a subject are joined by _or_ or _nor_, the verb agrees with the nearer part." there are three clauses: (1) "When all parts of a subject joined by _or_ or _nor_ are singular, the verb is singular; when all parts are plural, the verb is plural" (2) "When one part of the subject is singular and the other plural, avoid awkwardness by placing the plural part closer to the verb so that the verb is plural" (3) "When the subject consists of nouns and pronouns of different person requiring different verb forms, the verb agrees with the nearer part of the subject. Reword if this construction is awkward" now, this is a topic i've thought about, off and on,for some time, so i read this advice with some interest. six comments. (a) the handbook doesn't actually say what the problem is, and the way the solutions are presented conceals it. the fact is that clause (1) (slightly amended, to get the person issue out of the way) is utterly uncontroversial; i'm not aware of variation on this point, and i doubt that anyone needs to be told what to do when confronted by disjunctive subjects of the same number (and person). clauses (2) and (3), however, treat circumstances where there is actual variation, and where writers are often genuinely puzzled; here's where the problem lies, in disjunctive subjects that differ in number or person (with verbs that show these differences morphologically). (in general, i think it's a mistake for manuals to treat uncontroversial facts and disputed usage as covered by "rules" of the same sort.) now, extrapolating from the clear cases in (1), we can frame the general principle: Disjunctive Agreement (DA): with a disjunctive subject, the verb agrees with *each* of the disjuncts. DA covers the cases in (1) and also (correctly) predicts that the cases in (2) and (3) are problematic -- because they give rise to conflicts as to which verb form to choose: Either my friends or my next-door neighbor ?are/?is going to have to help. Either you or I ?are/?am going to have to help. DA also makes sense semantically; each disjunct is interpreted separately as the subject of the verb (in contrast to conjunction, where the conjuncts taken together are interpreted as the subject of the verb). why doesn't the handbook explain at least some of this? no way to tell for sure, but possibly because of the unclarities in its notion of "subject". for the purposes of rule (0) (and for the corresponding rule for conjunction), the subject is the *whole* subject, which has "parts"; by talking merely about "parts", instead of saying that these subjects are compound and have multiple subjects as their parts, the handbook avoids the whole area of constructs of type X that have multiple parts of type X, a notion that many people find mind-bending. in addition, it's quite clear from the discussion of other examples that elsewhere what counts as the subject is a single word -- the *head word* of the subject, in modern syntactic terminology -- and the authors of the handbook might have wanted not to draw attention to their shifting use of the word "subject", so they didn't delve into details. in any case, it would probably have been useful to explain to the reader that the problem in situations (2) and (3) is a conflict between conditions imposed by the grammar of english, and that nothing else in that grammar resolves the conflict. (b) the handbook tries to cover all the situations might arise, and with a single principle. reasoning on first principles, you might think that if there is a conflict between conditions, then the construction is simply blocked. on the other hand, blocking frustrates the expression of content, so that reasoning on other first principles, you might think that conflicts are usually resolved. indeed, Optimality Theory takes off from the claim that one condition usually "wins", outranks the others (so that expressibility is served as much as possible). OT-style analyses are natural when the conditions in question can be ranked with respect to one another -- but the problem with DA is that we have no independently motivated way of picking out the winning disjunct, so that if there's to be resolution, it must be on the basis of some *extra* principle. the handbook provides such a principle -- agreement with the nearest disjunct (AND) -- that is supposed to cover all the cases, including the uncontroversial cases in (1). now, there is some precedent for claiming that DA conflicts are irresolvable. charles fillmore suggested, many years ago, that some conflicts (these in particular) produced gaps in the predictions of the grammar, analogous to paradigm gaps in morphology. there are some things you just can't say. and, in fact, a great many speakers are deeply uncomfortable with *any* resolution of the conflicts in (2) and (3). given that, the best advice to a careful writer would probably be to avoid the situations that give rise to DA conflicts. (there's no point in being "technically" correct, if what you write is going to annoy or baffle a significant number of your readers.) (c) the handbook assumes that there is exactly one right way to do anything. not only doesn't it allow for zero right ways -- blocking -- but it doesn't allow for alternatives, either. yet when you collect judgments from speakers, some of them are equally happy with more than one resolution of DA conflicts (and different speakers sometimes prefer different alternatives). alternatives are all over the place in languages, and it seems gratuitous to insist that the *grammar* of a language should always pick out One Right Way. (d) there is evidence, in the handbook's own discussion, for a resolution principle different from AND. the crucial point here is that clause (2) has the writer *reword* sentences so that sg+pl disjuncts will have plural agreement: "Awkward Neither the owners nor the contractor agrees. Revised Neither the contractor nor the owners agree." that is, the handbook prefers agreement with the higher number (AHN), but only in combination with the resolution principle it prescribes, AND. the fact is, when you collect judgments (and examples from corpora) some speakers resolve via AND, regardless of the order of the disjuncts: Neither the owners nor the contractor agree. indeed, some speakers resolve by agreement with the higher person (AHP), so that instead of rewording to avoid "awkwardness" in the way that the handbook prescribes: "Awkward Either Juarez or I am responsible. Revised Either Juarez is responsible, or I am." the speakers can resolve without rewording: Either Juarez or I is responsible. (e) there is evidence, in speaker judgments and examples from corpora, for still another solution to DA conflicts in the singular: defaulting to 3rd person sg. that is, examples like the following can be found, and some speakers find them acceptable: Neither you nor I is responsible. though the evidence from actual usage is quite complex, the handbook recognizes only AND. now, agreement with the nearest (disjunct or conjunct), case-marking by the nearest, and determination of governed verb form by the nearest are all attested in various languages as the *standard* resolutions of conflicts, so that AND for english wouldn't be extraordinary from a crosslinguistic point of view. but then neither would principled resolutions of other sorts, or defaulting, or blocking, for that matter. all are attested, and often there's dialect variation with respect to the details. the point is that AND is in no way privileged on the basis of first principles or crosslinguistic considerations. nor is it strongly supported by the evidence from actual usage. as i said above, the best advice to the careful writer is probably: don't go there! (f) the handbook falls back on appeals to "awkwardness" (cited above). similar appeals -- to "euphony" or "smoothness" or "naturalness" or what "sounds right (or wrong)", that is, to some sort of sprachgefuehl -- are astonishingly common in works of advice for writers. (writers are fairly often told to avoid stranded prepositions -- unless they'd sound right!) they are problematic: after all, if the readers already had a feel for what is awkward vs. effective, smooth, etc., they wouldn't need the handbook. now, the handbook does provide (a few, well, two) exemplars of what counts as "awkward" in the world of DA sentences, but provides no hint as to how to extrapolate from them. i understand that writing is an art and craft, and that teaching by exemplars ("do as i do" or "do as she does") is both honorable and effective. in that context, it's best to avoid rigid arbitrary "rules" in most situations. you may choose to accept such conventions, as when you propose to write a sonnet or a haiku, but otherwise it's a matter of developing a feel for what is likely to work and what isn't. in this context, some analysis of the nature of the choices involved can be very useful to the learner. *but*, as i've said here several times before, it's a bad move to elevate advice about effective choices to claims about the grammar of english -- in this case, to insist that AND (or any other of the schemes for dealing with DA conflicts) is just a rule of english grammar. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 10 18:41:44 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:41:44 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" Message-ID: I recall reading a biography of an English dealer in high-end hunting rifles and shotguns who also frequented the theater. One night he went to see a well reviewed play about Napoleon, and could see from his orchestra seat that Napoleon's army was equipt with an assortment of target and hunting guns, mostly dating to the mid and late 19th C. When he got home he wrote a blistering letter to the Times deploring the sad decline of the British Theatre. I can only hope that he had better luck in getting the Times of London to print this letter than our Barry has had with the NYTimes. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoffrey Nunberg Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 0:48 am Subject: Re: obscene words from "Deadwood" > Thanks for this, Jesse, and to Dennis, Dale et al. for the other > comments. Of course we linguists are apt to be more put off by these > anachronisms than other people. I think of the story about Edith > Head, the famous Hollywood costume designer, who as she was walking > out of "Oklahoma!" remarked to her companion: "I don't see what all > the fuss is about. The hems are two inches thick!" > > Geoff > From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 10 19:10:20 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:10:20 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: <20da9f320df00c.20df00c20da9f3@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 01:41:44PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > > I recall reading a biography of an English dealer in > high-end hunting rifles and shotguns who also frequented the > theater. One night he went to see a well reviewed play > about Napoleon, and could see from his orchestra seat that > Napoleon's army was equipt with an assortment of target and > hunting guns, mostly dating to the mid and late 19th C. > When he got home he wrote a blistering letter to the Times > deploring the sad decline of the British Theatre. I think that writing letters to the Times or the BBC about even very slight inaccuracies in (esp. military) costuming in historical dramas is a stereotypical British thing to do. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 10 19:12:16 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500 Subject: architecting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040310124941.02742370@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote: > Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a > job posted by an investment firm: > > "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for > architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class > talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..." As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense 'to design' or 'to plan'. Best, Jesse OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 10 19:14:40 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:18 PM -0500 3/10/04, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000, "Prof. R. Sussex" > writes: > >> As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in >> which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used >> to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms >> of political aspirations. > >I cannot believe that a linguist of your experience would be so naive as to >think that the USA has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels. Very true, but some of the points below are not without spin. For example, (1) I think most American observers would disagree with the claim that 'in the USA "conservative" is every bit as perjorative as "liberal"'; for whatever reasons (and discerning the reasons would itself be an exercise in controversy), "conservative" is not as pejorative as "liberal", and hasn't been for a couple of decades. No Republicans run away from the former label (which is not deemed the "C-word"), while Democrats--AND Republicans--have been shunning "the L word" (and not in the new Showtime sense) for decades. In fact, "progressive" is sometimes used instead. (2) If the term 'civil rights' indeed "has, and has had since at least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations"', we wouldn't be able to now debate, as we do, civil rights for gays and other minority groups. Granted, the racial references do predominate, but I don't think there has been true semantic narrowing here. (3) A quick and dirty google inspection suggests that the claim that _civil liberties_ "is almost always associated with the often-controversial American Civil Liberties Union" may be accurate if "almost always" conveys about 20-25% of the time. larry horn, knee-jerk liberal > Consider >"Papist" in English history, or the way during World War I that the House of >Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had to change its name. > >> A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth >> tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which >> in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues > >You forget that there is no national political party in the USA named >"Liberal", nor is there one named "Conservative". (There is one of >each in New York >State, but neither has any presence outside New York.) Hence "liberal" and >"conservative" are not constrained to be applied only to formal members of >formal parties, but rather apply ONLY to ideas/ideologies/biases/prejudices. > >The problem with the term "liberal" in the USA is that it has long been >overtaken by events. The meaning of the term, in US politics, was >fairly clear >during say Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration (1933-1945). But >that was more >than two generations ago. Many of the political battles of Roosevelt's day >are no longer relevant, whereas many of today's issues were not even >thought of >in his day. Unfortunately the word "liberal" has been forced to stay in use >all these years. > >Result: the term "liberal" is no longer meaningful, due to being obsolete. >Example: most people consider President Clinton to be a "liberal", yet far >from being "tax-and-spend" he put a lot of effort into cutting >budget deficits. >By the standards of US politics, that made him a conservative (at least on >this issue). Yet many of the people who supported Clinton >considered themselves >to be liberals, and many of >those who opposed him considered themselves conservatives. > >So we have the sight of numerous Clinton-supporters who insist on naming >themselves with the meaningless label "liberal". Not surprisingly, their >opponents pick up on this self-label, so to them "liberal" is a term >of disrespect. > >Let me repeat the above paragraph. So we have the sight of numerous >Clinton-dislikers who insist on naming themselves with the meaningless label >"conservative". Not surprisingly, their opponents pick up on this >self-label, so to >them "conservative" is a term of disrespect. > >What we have is two sets of partisans, each picking up on an obsolete label >self-chosen by their opponents and turning this label into a perjorative term. > >NB: you may not be aware of this, but in the USA "conservative" is every bit >as perjorative as "liberal". > > >> I'd also like to know the potential spin status of >> civil rights >> progressive >> civil libertarian >> - which are harder to pin down. > >"Civil rights" is NOT an obsolete term like "liberal". It has, and has had >since at least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations". > >"Progressive" was a widely-used term in the early 20th century, when it >referred to such things as women voting and Prohibition. It then, for reasons >unclear to me, dropped out of general usage, last appearing in the national >consicousness in the Progressive Party of 1948. However, note the >"Progressive >Conservative Party" in Canada. > >"Civil libertarian" is almost a non-word, since the term "civil liberties" is >almost always associated with the often-controversial American Civil >Liberties Union, which has been very active since at least the >1920's. If the ACLU >is not involved, then the term "civil liberties" doesn't get used. > > - James A. Landau From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 10 19:21:26 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:21:26 -0500 Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 Message-ID: Here we have a positive clue and a dead end. Albert Gleizes produced a painting in 1915 called "Jazz" and Charles Demuth one called "Negro Jazz Band" in 1916. To start with the bad news: Demuth was an American painter. His painting, a watercolor, is reproduced in Charles Demuth, by Barbara Haskell, illustration #19, p. 81. (New York : Whitney Museum of American Art & H. N. Abrams, 1987) However, Bruce Kellner, in an email dated Thursday, February 12, 2004, tells me: "Many of the titles that she [Emily Farnham, Demuth's biographer] does identify, however, are of her own inventions for identification purposes, since Demuth seems not to have titled all of his works himself." So this is probably not Demuth's title for this painting, but a description concocted in the 1950s, based on its seeming subject matter. On the other hand, Albert Gleizes, a French Cubist, came to the U. S. for a fairly brief visit in September, 1915. He was back in Europe by the spring of 1916. Albert Gleizes: catalogue raisonne (Paris: Fondation Albert Gleizes & Somogy, Editions d'art, c1998) gives 4 paintings in vol. 1, p. 218, 3 of which are dated '15 and one of which is entitled "Jazz 3e et." One of these paintings clearly shows two blck men playing banjos. The apparent fact that Gleizes encountered the word "jazz" in NYC in late 1915 or early 1916 and associated it with music played by black musicians does not fit comfortably with what otherwise seems a plausible story, that "jazz" was a west coast word brought to Chicago by a white musician (Bert Kelly); that it was adopted there by one or several other groups comprised of white musicians; that it did not reach NYC until early 1917, when the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to the city; and that the word and the music did not become a fad until the ODJB made a hit record in the spring of 1917. It does seem that once the fad hit, every vaudeville musical group that played novelty music started calling itself a "jazz band", and that the response in Chicago to Kelly;s group, and the ODJB, and Tom Brown's band, was pretty enthusiastic, so it may be that the fad started to spread through vaudeville before the ODJB came to NYC and before they recorded their first hit. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Mar 10 19:27:34 2004 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:27:34 -0500 Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 Message-ID: Nice work, George. How certain is it that "Jazz 3e et" is the original title of the Gleizes painting? John Baker From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Mar 10 19:18:29 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:18:29 +0000 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:10 pm -0500 Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > I think that writing letters to the Times or the BBC about > even very slight inaccuracies in (esp. military) costuming > in historical dramas is a stereotypical British thing to do. There's a means of self-deprecatory (or other-deprecatory) humour that plays on this. People around here often refer to themselves or another person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--referring to the way that people sign anonymous letters to newspaper columns, etc. (The adjectives and towns change--it's the construction itself that is the constant.) It's a way of poking fun at one's own (or another's) tendency to get on one's high horse about some arguably trivial thing. The smaller or more provincial the town, the better. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 10 19:37:30 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:37:30 -0500 Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!) In-Reply-To: <737EBA1C.4FC1CFD6.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:53:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > (OED) > parbake, v. > nonce-wd. > trans. To bake partially, half bake. > > 1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot >and so glaring that very few people were about; a few >par-baked figures went quickly by. The revised OED entry now has a first cite from 1841 (in a non-figurative context), and the note "_rare_ before 20th cent.". If you have something before that 1985 Factiva quote, it would fill a big gap. Jesse "Yes, someone reads these" Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 10 19:52:01 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote: > (3) A quick and dirty google inspection suggests that the claim that > _civil liberties_ "is almost always associated with the > often-controversial American Civil Liberties Union" may be accurate > if "almost always" conveys about 20-25% of the time. I hesitate to venture what could be deemed a political opinion in response to a posting (not Larry's, but the one before) by someone who once complained about my half-assed political comments, but I think this is a factual, nonpartisan point: The current Administration, while undertaking controversial legal and legislative innovations in response to terrorism, has given the term "civil liberties" more currency than it has had since the McCarthy era, and the term has taken on a new life going way beyond the specific activities of the ACLU. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 10 19:59:35 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:59:35 -0500 Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!) In-Reply-To: <20040310193729.GA13300@panix.com> Message-ID: At 2:37 PM -0500 3/10/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:53:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> (OED) >> parbake, v. >> nonce-wd. > > trans. To bake partially, half bake. >> Thanks for calling the entry to our attention. I'll try referring to someone's parbaked ideas next time I get the chance. Larry Horn > > 1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot >>and so glaring that very few people were about; a few >>par-baked figures went quickly by. > >The revised OED entry now has a first cite from 1841 (in a >non-figurative context), and the note "_rare_ before 20th >cent.". If you have something before that 1985 Factiva >quote, it would fill a big gap. > >Jesse "Yes, someone reads these" Sheidlower >OED From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Mar 10 20:24:05 2004 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:24:05 -0000 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078946309@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne Murphy wrote: > There's a means of self-deprecatory (or other-deprecatory) humour that > plays on this. People around here often refer to themselves or another > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--referring to > the way that people sign anonymous letters to newspaper columns, etc. > (The adjectives and towns change--it's the construction itself that is > the constant.) It's a way of poking fun at one's own (or another's) > tendency to get on one's high horse about some arguably trivial thing. The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", but now that there are no longer any retired ex-Indian-Army colonels spending their sunset years in that town, we have had to find a more geographically diverse set of exemplars. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 10 21:14:59 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:14:59 -0500 Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 Message-ID: I don't have the book here now -- I looked at it at the NYPL, and it's been ordered for this library but isn't here yet -- but this version of the painting was described as something like "signe et date" (or shuuld this be with "ee"s) so "Jazz 3e et" must be in the hand of Gleizes. George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:27 pm Subject: Re: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 > Nice work, George. How certain is it that "Jazz 3e et" is > the original title of the Gleizes painting? > > John Baker > > From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Mar 10 22:56:20 2004 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:56:20 +1000 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My thanks to several contributors for helpful insights on the US use of "liberal" and other terms. My point was not, of course, that the US "has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels" - such a view would indeed be naive, but it's not what I wrote. I am interested in the uses of political-affective labels in the US in ways which differ from uses elsewhere and which aren't documented in lexicographic resources: for instance, James Laundau's observations on the decline / shift of "progressive", or Laurence Horn's comments on who will associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum. I can't find any relevant entries in LLBA or other relevant bibloiographic databases. I'd be grateful for any bibliographic guidance. Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 10 23:11:27 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:11:27 -0800 Subject: subject-verb agreement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2004, at 10:23 AM, i wrote: > ...now, there is some precedent for claiming that DA conflicts are > irresolvable. charles fillmore suggested, many years ago, that some > conflicts (these in particular) produced gaps in the predictions of the > grammar, analogous to paradigm gaps in morphology... i was startled yesterday when i discovered that AHD4 lists "stridden" as the past participle of "stride", without comment; a great many people reject both "strived" and "stridden". apparently there are enough who produce "stridden" that AHD4 lists it -- but it's hard to believe that these people are now in the majority. when i ask classes to supply a past participle for "stride", almost everyone falls into consternation or giggles. > ...the fact is, when you collect judgments (and examples from corpora) > some speakers resolve via AND, regardless of the order of the > disjuncts: > Neither the owners nor the contractor agree. my mistake: AHN, not AND. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Mar 10 22:57:20 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:57:20 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500 Laurence Horn > larry horn, knee-jerk liberal Isn't that redundant from a Yale professor? But since you are out of the closet, maybe you can help with a related subject. I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and move on to more important things without needing to listen further. A partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize. Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for conservative speakers. Incidentally, although "liberal" is used as an epithet in some circles -- OK, in my circles -- "progressive" which is to the left of "liberal" doesn't seem to carry the same emotional clout. Even "Marxist" lands more gently on the ear. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From debaron at UIUC.EDU Wed Mar 10 23:50:11 2004 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:50:11 -0600 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: <200403102342.i2ANgSJt020281@relay3.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing Democratic as a proper adj? as in, Teddy Kennedy is the senior Democrat Senator from Massachusetts, or Democrat fundraisers are playing catchup. Seems to me when I was a lad we always said Democratic here. I assumed a few years ago that this was a Republican plot to recover the word democratic for their own partisan purposes, but I hear democratics usin it as well. So, as they say, what's up with that? (Actually, when I was a lad the only word allowed in the house was socialist, but hey, that was New York . . .) Dennis From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 11 00:17:09 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:17:09 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: <003501c406fa$6d2ca6d0$5ec2ae80@ad.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote: > As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing > Democratic as a proper adj? as in, Teddy Kennedy is the senior Democrat > Senator from Massachusetts, or Democrat fundraisers are playing catchup. > Seems to me when I was a lad we always said Democratic here. I assumed a few > years ago that this was a Republican plot to recover the word democratic for > their own partisan purposes, but I hear democratics usin it as well. So, as > they say, what's up with that? I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure your impressions are accurate: it was a deliberate Republican adoption to make the Democrats sound undemocratic. Safire must have written about this . Jesse Sheidlower OED From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 11 00:36:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:36:47 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility, family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media, choice, etc. I would suspect that users of these words are more "conservative" than "liberal." I must admit that I stole most of them from on-line articles. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane Campbell" > I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon > shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that > liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to > liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of > these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and > move on to more important things without needing to listen further. A > partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big > business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize. > > Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be > primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner > who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for > conservative speakers. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 11 00:51:40 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:51:40 -0500 Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 In-Reply-To: <215fdde215f974.215f974215fdde@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: What is "Jazz 3e et."? I'm generally ignorant of French. Is it "Jazz troisie`me e'tude" = "Jazz, third study" maybe? Then would there be a couple of earlier "jazz" works? -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 11 01:09:36 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:09:36 -0500 Subject: Milk, Milk, Lemonade In-Reply-To: <200403090501.i2951Pvq002386@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I can't figure out what was posted by Sam and what by Barry. My memory -- childhood in 1950's -- is only of a rhyme, with no remembered pointing or other reference: What's your trade? Lemonade. Around the corner ice cream's made. "Trade" isn't common now in the sense of 'business; line of work', and I'd be surprised to hear it productively from a child or teenager. Was it current even then? Or does it indicate a possible earlier origin for this rhyme in various forms? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 11 01:21:58 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:21:58 -0500 Subject: outsourcing Message-ID: On public radio tonight, "Marketplace" I think, there was a long article on the movement of American jobs to other countries; it may have been the one described on their website (http://www.marketplace.org/) as "India's youth are breaking new ground in previously unknown and unpopular professions". The speakers all used the word "outsourcing" specifically to mean (of a US company) having work done outside the United States. This specification was new to me. OED OnLine defines "outsource": trans. To obtain (goods, etc., esp. component parts) by contract from a source outside an organization or area; to contract (work) out. Also absol. and gives citations from 1979 to 1986. MW Online does give the "foreign" concentration for the gerund, which has its own entry. (The verb is apparently available on-line only with a subscription.) Function: noun : the practice of subcontracting manufacturing work to outside and especially foreign or nonunion companies To quote the Gershwins, "How long has this been going on?" -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Mar 11 01:42:59 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:42:59 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:50:11 -0600 Dennis Baron writes: > As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing > Democratic as a proper adj? That was a Gingrich -- blessed be his name -- initiative. I, too, grew up in an era where capital-D Democrats were Democratic. And I still feel uncomfortable using Democrat as an adjective. But I force myself to do it, not for partisan reasons but because it is clearer. For instance, you don't always have to say "capital-D" to differentiate it from "democratic" as a political system which Democrats do not exclusively own. Jefferson, BTW, was a member of the Democratic-Republican party. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 02:18:19 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:18:19 -0500 Subject: Hector was a pup (1906) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Lesa Dill wrote: > It relates to the Fenimore Cooper Leatherstocking Series. As Natty > Bumpo grows old and wanders around the prairie, so does his dog > Hector, whom I always thought ended up as toothless as his master. I > don't remember if the phrase actually appears in any of the novels. Here's an earlier example: 1896 _Wash. Post_ 6 Feb. 6 (ProQuest) Charley Holcomb and "Monk" Robinson ... have been scrapping with each other in this neighborhood "since long before Hector was a pup." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 02:57:07 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:57:07 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: <005401c40700$efc44bb0$a8601941@sam> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility, > family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media, > choice, etc. This is an excellent list. By "choice" I assume you mean choice with regard to school vouchers, not abortions. Here are some others: tort reform, faith-based, welfare mothers, strict constructionism, original interpretation [of the Constitution], creation science, tax-and-spend, pro-life, tree-hugger, Feminazi, morality Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Mar 11 02:59:38 2004 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm sure Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater. From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Mar 11 03:05:15 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:05:15 -0600 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: So far, the 'best' right to left insult I've heard is "Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-sucking, bunny-hugging, Yuppie tree-faggot." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" Here are some others: From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 11 03:08:34 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:08:34 -0500 Subject: Fwd: "yestersol" In-Reply-To: <200402270510.i1R5AWvq009399@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Going through old mail... #Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:15:46 -0500 #From: Laurence Horn #Subject: Fwd: "yestersol" # #An early nominee for the WOTY list, courtesy of a colleague on another list... # #--- begin forwarded text # #Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:20:59 +0000 #From: JohnM #Subject: yestersol # #As someone who is following closely the Mars mission #(and will almost certainly put a summary on my website) #I couldn't help being fascinated by the new word 'yestersol' #which NASA has invented (sol being a Martian day, 20 mins #longer than ours). I have not as yet seen 'tosol' but it can't #be far away. # #Now you can't have a word like this in many other languages. #You can't in any Latin-derived languages, you can't in Greek or in #German. The only language I know when you can have a similar #construction is Hungarian (nap=day) tegnap=yesterday ->tegsol) #and they are one better because they can have tomorrow, too! #(holnap=tomorrow->holsol). # #Sorry for being so sad, but does anyone know any other languages that #could have yestersol? Latin could have 'tosol'. L. 'today' is "hodie" (long i and e), lit. 'on this day'. (The morphology is totally lost in, e.g., the Spanish daughter word "hoy".) Latin 'tomorrow', though, is useless for this purpose, "cras", and I don't remember L. 'yesterday'. FWIW, the Klingon words are morphologically transparent but lexically difficult: DaHjaj: this + day wa'Hu': one + 'days ago' wa'leS: one + 'days from now' -- the difficulty being that the three head roots are completely unrelated! -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Thu Mar 11 03:23:18 2004 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:23:18 -0800 Subject: democrat as an adjective and some conservative buzz words Message-ID: I don't know if he was the first to do so but Joe Mccarthy cerainly popularized the usage. And as far as conservative buzz words are concerned "eliitist" has become common when referring to liberals. And "arrogant" is certainly as much thrown around by Conservatives as by liberals. jerome Foster From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 03:28:20 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:28:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Democrat Party" In-Reply-To: <200403110209.i2B29Zf13037@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Duane Campbell wrote: > That was a Gingrich -- blessed be his name -- initiative. I, too, grew up > in an era where capital-D Democrats were Democratic. And I still feel > uncomfortable using Democrat as an adjective. But I force myself to do > it, not for partisan reasons but because it is clearer. For instance, you > don't always have to say "capital-D" to differentiate it from > "democratic" as a political system which Democrats do not exclusively > own. This is a longstanding Republican fetish that predated Gingrich by decades. Safire's New Political Dictionary states: "In 1955, Leonard Hall, a former Republican National Chairman, began referring to the 'Democrat' rather than the 'Democratic' party, a habit begun by Thomas E. Dewey. Hall dropped the 'ic,' he said, because 'I think their claims that they represent the great mass of the people, and we don't is just a lot of bunk.' The University of Virginia's Atcheson L. Hench said of this usage in American Speeh magazine: 'Whether they have meant to imply that the party was no longer democratic, or whether they banked on the harsher sound pattern of the new name; whether they wanted to strengthen the impression that they were speaking for a new Republican party by using a new name for the opposition, or whether they had other reasons, the fact remains that ... highly influential speakers ... used the shorter adjective. Some Democrats suggested retaliating by shortening Republican to Publican, but the National Committee overruled them, explaining that Republican 'is the name by which our opponents' product is known and mistrusted." When I search JSTOR, I don't find any article by Hench on this subject. The OED has an 1890 citation for "Democrat Party." Here's earlier: 1855 _N.Y. Daily Times_ 23 Nov. 3 (ProQuest) The Republican and Democrat parties have been formed by it. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 03:41:44 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:41:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Democrat Party" In-Reply-To: <200403110328.i2B3SMJ25576@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote: > When I search JSTOR, I don't find any article by Hench on this subject. Safire is apparently referring to an article by Ignace Feuerlicht in the Oct. 1957 issue of AS. Feuerlicht wrote that "It seems that Carroll Reece, former G.O.P. chairman, forged the new adjective as a political weapon in the election year 1946." The earliest citation Feuerlicht gives for Reece's usage is _N.Y. Times_, 27 Sept. 1946. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Mar 11 04:09:27 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:09:27 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500 David Bergdahl writes: > I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm > sure > Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater. Possible. But I don't think it gained currency until Gingrich and his C-SPAN speeches to an empty gallery. A word on the utility of the change. I had a talk just this evening about the counties in Florida that were in contention in 2000, and I mentioned that all had an election commission with a Democrat majority. That was accurate and clear. Had I said that all three had a D(or d)emocratic majority, it would have taken on overtones that the opposite would have not been small-d democratic. Sam Clements and Fred Shapiro have offered thought provoking lists of words associated with conservatives. I'm not altogher comfortable with the anologies, but I'm going to sleep on it. I think the use of words in a political context is appropriate for discussion in this very political year. I know I am a partisan, and I also know that my particular partisanship is in a tiny minority on this list, but I would hope we could discuss the words without doing serious bodily harm. D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 04:30:53 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:30:53 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: <20040310.231608.-211345.27.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0500 3/10/04, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500 David Bergdahl >writes: >> I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm >> sure >> Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater. > >Possible. But I don't think it gained currency until Gingrich and his >C-SPAN speeches to an empty gallery. > >A word on the utility of the change. I had a talk just this evening about >the counties in Florida that were in contention in 2000, and I mentioned >that all had an election commission with a Democrat majority. That was >accurate and clear. Had I said that all three had a D(or d)emocratic >majority, it would have taken on overtones that the opposite would have >not been small-d democratic. Another illustration the disambiguating "Democrat" was Bob Dole's favored use in his 1988 campaign of the notion of "Democrat wars" (e.g. WWI, WWII, Korean War, all of which we joined in on under a Democrat(ic) administration). Referring to these as "Democratic wars" wouldn't have had the same effect, and might have been misconstrued. As for the practice of attributing such wars to the party controlling the adminstration at the time, however that party is referred to, Dole's usage provides a neat instance of Aristotle's observation: Another [fallacy] is taking a noncause as a cause, for example when something has taken place at the same time or after [something else]; for people take what happens later as though it happened because of what preceded, and especially people involved in politics, for example Demades [regarded] the policy of Demosthenes as the cause of all evils, for the war took place after it. (Rhetoric 1401b30ff.) Larry Horn From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 04:37:56 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:37:56 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:57 PM -0500 3/10/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >> nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility, >> family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media, >> choice, etc. > >This is an excellent list. By "choice" I assume you mean choice with >regard to school vouchers, not abortions. > >Here are some others: > >tort reform, faith-based, welfare mothers, and lest we forget, welfare Cadillac >strict constructionism, >original interpretation [of the Constitution], creation science, >tax-and-spend, pro-life, tree-hugger, Feminazi, morality > there's also semantic extension, e.g. "terrorist" (for educators critical of NCLB) larry horn From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 04:50:41 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:50:41 EST Subject: Wrap fish in newspaper (1952); Line bird cage in newspaper (1949) Message-ID: For how long have we been wrapping fish in newspapers? It's also an old slight against a newspaper you don't like. The New York Times, for example, is only good to "wrap fish in." Occasionally, you'll also hear "line bird cages." I thought I'd try a "wrap fish" search in Newspaperarchive. ..USAGE NOTE: Do not wrap fish in the internet edition. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("wrap fish") Coshocton Tribune - 11/23/1975 ...For Realism By JOAN HANAUER NKW YORK don't WRAP FISH in old newspapers any more they.. Coshocton, Ohio Sunday, November 23, 1975 562 k Daily Times News - 10/25/1972 ...Newspapers WHITEVILLE They've been used to WRAP FISH for years and even ground up and.. Burlington, North Carolina Wednesday, October 25, 1972 604 k Chronicle Telegram - 9/27/1964 ...80 YEARS AGO IN NEW YORK WAXED PAPER TO WRAP FISH 50 AS TO Xx CARRY ft HOME... ABBIE.. Elyria, Ohio Sunday, September 27, 1964 675 k Edwardsville Intelligencer - 5/22/1969 ...A lot of editorial pages have been used to WRAP FISH in since then, but Matthews won't.. Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, May 22, 1969 526 k La Verne Leader - 7/31/1969 ...cracks about their product bc'infj used to WRAP FISH and line bird cages. And there was.. La Verne, California Thursday, July 31, 1969 509 k Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1964 ...80 YEARS AGO IN NEW YORK WAXED PAPER TO WRAP FISH 50 AS TO Xx CARRY ft HOME... ABBIE.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, August 27, 1964 675 k Dixon Evening Telegraph - 12/24/1953 ...TV Manhattan Swears It Will Never Again WRAP FISH in a Newspaper By KICIIAKD KLEINKIt.....ne icwspaper really means. We'll er WRAP a FISH in one again. Barber Scholarship.. Dixon, Illinois Thursday, December 24, 1953 738 k Salisbury Times - 7/15/1958 ...of a newspaper is that it's something to WRAP FISH in was right after all. The Daily.....proves it. A New Jersey couple needed to WRAP up not a FISH but a pair of muddy shoes.....had an impact, even when it was used to WRAP a pair of muddy shoes. Man Who Needed No.....this as lost time. That America's annual FISH harvest amounts to five billion pounds.. Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, July 15, 1958 625 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 7/8/1952 ...hits the street, the news is fit .only to WRAP FISH in. THIS IS all very well for the.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, July 08, 1952 789 k Zanesville Signal - 1/24/1952 ...yesterday's newspaper is only good to WRAP FISH in. I'm wondering if the FISH won't.. Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 24, 1952 694 k Mansfield News - 7/5/1925 ...sei. Her best rival is Mrs. 'grass, and -WRAP FISH In newsjit can be shipped at once.....te baseball Stanley life catches a FISH that he .know the shape of the FISH.....this, remove the internal organs; InThen WRAP the skin in paper. lent In the affairs.....belly, which lay on a board as before, and WRAP She has taken part In all of, would.. Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, July 05, 1925 832 k (Refers to the newspapers over fish packed in ice--ed.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("line bird cage") Chronicle Telegram - 6/4/1949 ...jeer at newspapers being used to LINE BIRD CAGES. We think of it as one more reader.....moved. board? Newspapers are also our first LINE of defense in pest control. If this.. Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 04, 1949 548 k From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 11 04:59:08 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:59:08 -0800 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: <200403101224.1b1afq5sh3NZFmR0@bunting> Message-ID: >... People around here often refer to themselves or another > > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--... >The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"? Rima From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 11 05:32:25 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:32:25 -0800 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: Two excellent sources for the origins and subsequent development of 'liberal', 'conservative', etc. are: Ronald Rotunda, _The Politics of Language: Liberalism as Word and Symbol_, U. of Iowa Press, 1986. David Green, _The Language of Politics in America: Shaping Political Consciousness from McKinley to Reagan_, Cornell, 1987. (This in particular is an invaluable book for anybody interested in the development of 20th c. political language in America.) I had an article on the more recent (since 1970) uses of 'liberal' in the American Prospect, 9/1/03; it's available online at http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/8/nunberg-g.html Geoff Nunberg >My thanks to several contributors for helpful insights on the US use >of "liberal" and other terms. My point was not, of course, that the >US "has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels" - such a view >would indeed be naive, but it's not what I wrote. I am interested in >the uses of political-affective labels in the US in ways which differ >from uses elsewhere and which aren't documented in lexicographic >resources: for instance, James Laundau's observations on the decline >/ shift of "progressive", or Laurence Horn's comments on who will >associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can >indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil >liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given >a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum. > >I can't find any relevant entries in LLBA or other relevant >bibloiographic databases. I'd be grateful for any bibliographic >guidance. > >Roly Sussex > >-- > >Roly Sussex >Professor of Applied Language Studies >Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics >School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies >The University of Queensland >Brisbane >Queensland 4072 >AUSTRALIA > >Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) >Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 >Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 >Email: sussex at uq.edu.au >Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html >School's website: > http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ >Applied linguistics website: > http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ > >Language Talkback ABC radio: >Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ >Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm > >********************************************************** From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 11 05:52:12 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:52:12 -0800 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: One point worth bearing in mind is that a lot of the language that we now associate with conservatism had its origin in left or liberal discourse -- cf "bias," "color-blind," "political correctness," "empowerment," and more recently "hate speech" (often used by RNC chairman Ed Gillespie to describe Democratic attacks on the President). In fact it's my sense that "values" itself first became widely current during the 1950's as one of those social-science borrowings like "alienation," "status symbol" and "peer group" that were popular in liberal-progressive circles, before it was picked up by the right in the late 1960s in phrases like "mainstream values" and "family values." (The first cite for "mainstream values" in the NYT is in a 1968 article that bears the wonderfully of-its-moment headline "Political Activism New Hippie 'Thing.'") BTW, the OED gives 1918 for the use of the plural 'values' to mean "the principles or standards of a person or society, the personal or societal judgement of what is valuable and important in life." But there are cites for this sense in the JSTOR sociology journals from the mid-1890's, and I'm betting that Fred Shapiro could take it back earlier than that. Geoff Nunberg >On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500 Laurence Horn > >> larry horn, knee-jerk liberal > >Isn't that redundant from a Yale professor? But since you are out of the >closet, maybe you can help with a related subject. > >I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon >shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that >liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to >liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of >these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and >move on to more important things without needing to listen further. A >partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big >business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize. > >Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be >primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner >who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for >conservative speakers. > >Incidentally, although "liberal" is used as an epithet in some circles -- >OK, in my circles -- "progressive" which is to the left of "liberal" >doesn't seem to carry the same emotional clout. Even "Marxist" lands more >gently on the ear. > >D > >I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 06:00:31 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:00:31 EST Subject: If life hands you lemons, make lemonade (1908) Message-ID: "YOU LEMONS" + "MAKE LEMONADE"--9,130 Google hits, 7,310 Google Groups hits What does Fred Shapiro have for this popular proverb? This was added to the recent OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS, but I can't read inside the book through Amazon. A brief internet search fails to find a single name or date attached to this. (OT: What if life gives you ten hours a day of parking tickets? What do you do then?) (GOOGLE) http://www.geocities.com/varsitycancerousteens/cancermation/attic/quotes.html "If life gives you lemons then make lemonade." Anon. (GOOGLE) http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Reference/EnglishDictionaries/?c i=0198605242&view=usa This brand new edition of the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs expands its coverage to 1100 proverbs, with more detailed annotation and up-to-the-minute citations from around the English-speaking world. The text is completely accessible and comprehensive, with added paragraphs that provide illuminating examples of each proverb and its history. New proverbs have been added, ranging from modern maxims such as "If life hands you lemons, make lemonade" to those with their roots in the past, such as "Justice delayed is justice denied." A thematic index allows readers to easily find proverbs on subjects ranging from boasting to weddings. Presented in a thoroughly reader-friendly style yet maintaining the scholarly standards that have characterized earlier editions, this fourth edition is a valuable updating of a well-loved classic reference. (GOOGLE GROUPS) From: Grace McGarvie (gemcgar at attbi.com) Subject: TROUBLE Newsgroups: alt.quotations Date: 2002-03-27 12:50:41 PST (...) When life hands you lemons - break out the tequila and salt. Anonymous If life deals you lemons, make lemonade; if it deals you tomatoes, make Bloody Marys. Anonymous (GOOGLE) http://66.33.0.35/spyblocs/adv/free/SpyBlocs_PopUp999.html When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. - Jack Handy (GOOGLE) http://a.tribalfusion.com/p.media/JLDRHMNBJIRCTINMHPDNLPOWNHUVOLIKNDIQPRMPLALLCLQEGJGHABYVRLQUOKBWKLIHIGOCFPQC/126196/pop.html > Dogbert: "Well you know what they say, when life gives you lemon, make > lemonade." > Dilbert: "But i'm allergic to citrus." > Dogbert: "Well you know what they say, when life gives you lemons, swell up > and die."Scott Adams (1957 - ), "Dilbert" comic strip (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Reno Evening Gazette - 4/25/1908 ...OPTIMIST. An optimist is a man who can MAKE LEMONADE out of all LEMONS handed him.....neighbor a ing and the readers of trying to MAKE out whether they are throwing bouquets.. Reno, Nevada Saturday, April 25, 1908 667 k Pg. 4, col. 2: _THE REAL OPTIMIST._ An optimist is a man who can make lemonade out of all lemons handed to him.--Biddleford Journal. Iowa Recorder - 11/30/1910 ...said that an optimist is a man who can MAKE LEMONADE out of LEMONS that are handed to him.....about It. sold me two bottles of stuff to MAKE this hair grow. is very strange it won't.. Atlanta Constitution - 4/14/1914 ...paper says optimist is one who can MAKE LEMONADE out of the LEMONS that are handed to.....federation and every activity and walk of .LIFE to speakers present the imperative need.....attorneys with the request that he MAKE the race for the legislature, will MAKE.....The first obligation of every community is LIFE conservation. Atlanta's women, as usual.. Atlanta, Georgia Tuesday, April 14, 1914 603 k Indianapolis Star - 6/18/1911 ...George, an optimist is a man who' can MAKE LEMONADE out of the LEMONS handed Mr. Werba.....marked change has entered Into the general LIFE of colored children, according to Mr.....and furthering of this season's successes MAKE the Werbai Luescher busy places these.....Ind., delivered an address on and Modern LIFE. in which he ridiculed New York as a.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, June 18, 1911 884 k Humeston New Era - 12/6/1911 ...senator, "is a man who is able to MAKE LEMONADE at night out of all tbe LEMONS.....save him from failure in college and in LIFE. "But, general, you the studerft replied.....is to dissolve the great organizations and MAKE Your grocer authorized to give you free.....possession your health may be your LIFE itself. See that you get what you ask.. Humeston, Iowa Wednesday, December 06, 1911 713 k Indiana Democrat - 12/6/1911 ...is able to do, in the opinion of said MAKE LEMONADE at night out of sll the LEMONS.....the county jail refusing to see any in my LIFE. I said them in that room nowhere else.....Is to dissolre the great organizations and MAKE them smaller, which Is a backward There.....than annually. She has spent many cne or MAKE any statement, an interthousands In.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 06, 1911 723 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 07:31:13 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:31:13 EST Subject: Grab a root and growl (1939); Something in the milk ain't clean (1997) Message-ID: GRAB A ROOT AND GROWL ROOT AND GROWL--42 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit Probably most popular in the late 1930s. The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has just "grab a root" from "mid-19C+." I've sat down to eat many times, but I've never heard it. (GOOGLE) http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak.htm (go to "FOOD"--ed.) THEY SAID: Grab a root and growl. WE SAY: Sit down and have something to eat (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Funny quotes during gameplay ... This makes me snicker anytime I have dinner at my parent's place; at the start of any meal, my dad usually says, "Grab a root and growl" Of course this is ... rec.games.frp.misc - May 23, 1997 by browne at mala.bc.ca - View Thread (301 articles) (AMERICAN MEMORY) http://memory.loc.gov DATE January 10, 1939 SUBJECT American Folklore Stuff (...) Many labor terms have found their way into American speech in Nebraska and elsewhere.A ground worker on a telephone gang is called a "Grunt." Guy anchors were called "Dead men." Stretching the wire---"pulling blocks." Railroad terms: Section men are "gandy dancers" or "Jerries," Brakeman -------- "shack" Fireman -------- "Tallow Pot" Engineer -------- "hog head" or "Eagle eye." Conductor -------- "captain" Car repairer -------- "car tink" quick stop signal -------- "wash out" out of town -------- "high ball" Take a hold & lift -------- "grab root and growl" Shoveler -------- "shovel stiff" Telegrapher -------- "lightning slinger" Demerits -------- "brownies" Intinerant laborer is a "gay cat" or "bindle stiff." There are literally hundreds of these terms. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Nevada State Journal - 3/30/1939 ...some live wires that will grab a ROOT AND GROWL AND put Reno on a solid foundation.....of widows AND orphans of local war veterans AND of needy veterans themselves, AND the.....them big business magazines the other day. AND I looked through it AND I was glad to see.....undoubtedly be glad to care for the mules. AND, forthwith loaded them in a stock car AND.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 30, 1939 693 k Pg. 4, col. 3: My suggestion would be for a good aggressive mayor, after elected, make a bee line to the chamber of commerce and appoint some live wires that will grab a root and growl and put Reno on a solid foundation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SOMETHING IN THE MILK AIN'T CLEAN SOMETHING IN THE MILK AIN'T CLEAN--34 Google hits, 19 Google Groups hits MILK AIN'T CLEAN--40 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits Another regionalism I haven't heard in NYC. http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak/food.htm THEY SAID: Something in the milk ain't clean! WE SAY: Something seems amiss. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (No hits--ed.) (GOOGLE GROUPS) I Am ... Mrs. Blue, when she'd call me every night at home,speaking to the various injustices in town,would always say, "Hmm hmm hmm Miss Judy--the milk ain't clean". ... soc.culture.malaysia - Jan 18, 2004 by t m z z - View Thread (1 article) Playist - WNCU Blue Monday show for Monday, February 16th ... Ichiban (98) 15. Something In The Milk Ain't Clean - Drink Small - The Blues Doctor To My Friends - Drinktron Publishing 16. All Dried ... bit.listserv.blues-l - Feb 25, 2004 by Marc Lee - View Thread (2 articles) Re: The Trivia Torment Continues... ... But if he was a BONA FIDE candy date for guvner then he HAD to be a registered voter, so that was all a scam to... something in the milk ain't clean... alt.fan.howard-stern - Oct 26, 1997 by John McCarthy - View Thread (1 article) The Week Online with DRCNet, Issue #90 ... of the Federal Sentencing Commission that mandatory minimum sentencing ought to be eliminated, noted that "something in the milk ain't clean." Rep. ... rec.drugs.announce - May 7, 1999 by DRCNet - View Thread (1 article) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 08:55:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:55:54 EST Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949) Message-ID: RODE HARD, PUT AWAY WET RODE HARD, PUT--929 Google hits, 258 Google Groups hits RODE HARD AND PUT--3,140 Google hits, 2,180 Google Groups hits I have a book of sports idioms right here. Neither one of these two is in the OED. Why does the same 1958 citation have "put away wet" and "out up wet"? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 1/22/1997 ...ings Some wrote to tell how they d "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet. 'to how the> 're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how they're 'grinning like.....a c Her favorite tnan a bar o; soap after a HARD day of was I poorer a ,u, entire subi.....nivs rnr.re diverse, she says i do rhis to PUT 1 think Faulkner did it to AND make them.. Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997 421 k News - 1/22/1997 ...Some wrote to tell how they'd been "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." to how they're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how they're 'grinning like.....She's no bigger than a bar of soap after a HARD day of If someone is "poorer than a.....around "like a duck after a June didn't "PUT all their eggs in the same basket" AND.. Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997 687 k Mountain Democrat - 9/6/1989 ...car. The Udder Guys, Men of Pause, RODE HARD AND PUT Away Wet, Raw Sewage need AND.....Coach Dave Clarke's El Dorado squad was hit HARD by graduation, AND the Cougars will rely.....second consecutive SFL championship. To PUT it bluntly, the Bruins are loaded. They.....forwards Mike Munoz, Robbie Moots AND Frank Cordes are also back AND should.. Placerville, California Wednesday, September 06, 1989 670 k Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/24/1958 ...of rocking chairs. feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet. ready signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs. Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND Mr. AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND.. Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 24, 1958 730 k Salisbury Times - 7/24/1958 ...rocking chairs." "I feel like I txfen RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." "She's built like a.....igned a contract with Warne rothers AND was PUT into a sma ole in "Darby's Rangers." The.....with crisp bacon AND hot buttered toast. PUT the buttered toast in a low oven to keep.....exciting afternoon for the two boys aged 8 AND 9. Then Patrolman Ben Way arrested them.. Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, July 24, 1958 596 k Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/24/1958 ...rocking chairs." "I feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet." ready signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs. Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND Mr. AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND.. Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 24, 1958 730 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits Story of my life. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948 ...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around Day Farm With A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD HAVE the mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products tnall lines, HAVE Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses combined to dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the.. Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948 728 k Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957 ...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer and fall of 1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying pulfets will feel 'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What You Need: IDEAL CHICKS Topcross.. Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957 824 k Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968 ...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of Christmas Bills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and SHOULD HAVE no problem making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents HAVE a composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample height which SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds.. Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968 1013 k From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 11:24:17 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:24:17 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can > >indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil > >liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given > >a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum. > > > >Roly Sussex I didn't say that "civil liberties" had been given a new direction by the Bush Administration, just that the Administration's activities had given it a renewed prominence. A previous poster had asserted, in my view quite inaccurately, that the term was invariably linked with the ACLU. An example of a group other than the ACLU that is closely linked to "civil liberties" nowadays is the Electronic Frontier Foundation. A Google search for "civil liberties" in conjunction with "Electronic Frontier Foundation" pulls up 40,000 hits. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 11 11:51:53 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:51:53 -0500 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question Message-ID: I received this in the mail from a friend of mine. Anyone know the answer? Page Stephens Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede, leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder, with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout. You may remember these. People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm, Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events where bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather cursory. What did we call it? I vaguely recall it had another name from (Mexican) Spanish...? If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a "bota." I am pretty sure that is a newer name. My Babelfish translator renders "bota" as an adjective meaning "dull." The diminutive form "botilla" is a bootee. Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. John From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Thu Mar 11 12:55:44 2004 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:55:44 +0800 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question In-Reply-To: <200403111152.i2BBqdt7018046@zero.taolodge.com> Message-ID: PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than = PS => mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'. "Don't forget to bring your bota bag." Southern California - 70's. Russ From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 11 13:45:18 2004 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:45:18 -0800 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question In-Reply-To: <200403111256.i2BCu5Ne002014@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Russ McClay > Subject: Re: Fw: hippie trivia question > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than = > PS => mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. > > 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'. > > "Don't forget to bring your bota bag." > > Southern California - 70's. > > Russ > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 11 13:47:39 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:47:39 -0500 Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949) Message-ID: I would never ride a horse hard and then put it into its stall until I had either walked it or let it out to pasture where it could cool off and let the sweat dry. The first time I remember? hearing this was from Tennessee Ernie back in the '50s whose signature as a comedian was his use of corny country phrases such as the one mentioned and "I feel as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs." Any dude or gunsel who would put a horse away wet should be horsewhipped pun intended. This reminds me of a story about a now famous physical anthropologist who was a city boy. One day in a class he said something like, "One of the advantages human beings had as an adaptation to heat is that humans unlike horses sweat." to which one of my fellow grad students who was a country boy responded, "Hey (name deleted to protect the guilty). Ever ride a horse?" Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:55 AM Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > RODE HARD, PUT AWAY WET > > RODE HARD, PUT--929 Google hits, 258 Google Groups hits > RODE HARD AND PUT--3,140 Google hits, 2,180 Google Groups hits > > I have a book of sports idioms right here. Neither one of these two is in > the OED. > Why does the same 1958 citation have "put away wet" and "out up wet"? > > > (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) > Frederick Post - 1/22/1997 > ...ings Some wrote to tell how they d "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet. 'to how the> > 're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how > they're 'grinning like.....a c Her favorite tnan a bar o; soap after a HARD day > of was I poorer a ,u, entire subi.....nivs rnr.re diverse, she says i do rhis > to PUT 1 think Faulkner did it to AND make them.. > Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997 421 k > > News - 1/22/1997 > ...Some wrote to tell how they'd been "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." to how > they're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how > they're 'grinning like.....She's no bigger than a bar of soap after a HARD day of > If someone is "poorer than a.....around "like a duck after a June didn't "PUT > all their eggs in the same basket" AND.. > Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997 687 k > > Mountain Democrat - 9/6/1989 > ...car. The Udder Guys, Men of Pause, RODE HARD AND PUT Away Wet, Raw Sewage > need AND.....Coach Dave Clarke's El Dorado squad was hit HARD by graduation, > AND the Cougars will rely.....second consecutive SFL championship. To PUT it > bluntly, the Bruins are loaded. They.....forwards Mike Munoz, Robbie Moots AND > Frank Cordes are also back AND should.. > Placerville, California Wednesday, September 06, 1989 670 k > > Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/24/1958 > ...of rocking chairs. feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet. ready > signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming > work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs. > Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND Mr. > AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND.. > Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 24, 1958 730 k > > Salisbury Times - 7/24/1958 > ...rocking chairs." "I feel like I txfen RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." "She's > built like a.....igned a contract with Warne rothers AND was PUT into a sma ole > in "Darby's Rangers." The.....with crisp bacon AND hot buttered toast. PUT the > buttered toast in a low oven to keep.....exciting afternoon for the two boys > aged 8 AND 9. Then Patrolman Ben Way arrested them.. > Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, July 24, 1958 596 k > > Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/24/1958 > ...rocking chairs." "I feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet." ready > signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming > work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs. > Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND > Mr. AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND.. > Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 24, 1958 730 k > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > --------------------------------------------- > ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED > > SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits > > Story of my life. > > > (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) > Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948 > ...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around Day Farm With > A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD HAVE the > mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products tnall lines, HAVE > Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses combined to > dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the.. > Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948 728 k > > Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957 > ...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer and fall of > 1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying pulfets will feel > 'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What You Need: > IDEAL CHICKS Topcross.. > Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957 824 k > > Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968 > ...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of Christmas > Bills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and SHOULD HAVE no problem > making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents HAVE a > composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample height which > SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds.. > Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968 1013 k From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 11 14:19:20 2004 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:19:20 -0800 Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden In-Reply-To: <4213EE71-72E8-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: To stride: 1.He strode into the clearing. 2.He had strode into the clearing. 3.He had stridded into the clearing. 4.He had stridden into the clearing. Sentence 4 is what I think I would say (even if I were not, as I am now, consciously trying to choose). FWIW, grammer-check in Word wanted to replace "strode" and "stridded" in sentences 2 and 3 with "stridden", and a search at http://www.onelook.com turns up several on-line dictionaries that agree "stridden" is the p.p. of "stride". BUT To strive: He had strived to make the world a better pace. So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride" that sounds natural to you or your students? --- "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Mar 10, 2004, at 10:23 AM, i wrote: > > > i was startled yesterday when i discovered that AHD4 > lists "stridden" > as the past participle of "stride", without > comment; a great many > people reject both "strived" and "stridden". > apparently there are > enough who produce "stridden" that AHD4 lists it -- > but it's hard to > believe that these people are now in the majority. > when i ask classes > to supply a past participle for "stride", almost > everyone falls into > consternation or giggles. > > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 14:38:27 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:38:27 EST Subject: democrat as an adjective Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote: > As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing > Democratic as a proper adj? My father was an editor on the Louisville KY _Courier-Journal_ back when it was owned by the Bingham family. In the terminology of the day, the _Courier-Journal's_ editorial stance was "liberal Democratic". Once when visiting my father's office (I can't date this citation except that it was 1965 or before) I saw a memo from Mr. Bingham stating that the use of "Democrat" as an adjective rather than "Democratic" was forbidden. I vaguely recall that the memo stated this practice was a deliberate attempt by Republicans to be derogatory. ---------------------------------------------------------------- For a politically offensive label, consider the word "lackey" which is so stereotyped as Communist propaganda that it is a shock to read _The Three Musketeers_ and find Planchet et al consistently referred to as "lackeys". Aside to Larry Horn: Anyone who refers to him/herself as a "knee-jerk liberal" isn't. - James A. Landau From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 11 16:34:12 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:34:12 -0800 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question Message-ID: By the late 70s it was still a bota bag, altho 'flask' works for me as well. I had never seen this in print until a few months ago and was surprised that it was boTa rather than boDa. I had long since forgotten the word. Fritz Juengling >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 03/11/04 05:45AM >>> Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Russ McClay > Subject: Re: Fw: hippie trivia question > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than = > PS => mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. > > 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'. > > "Don't forget to bring your bota bag." > > Southern California - 70's. > > Russ > From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Mar 11 17:08:16 2004 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:08:16 -0600 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question Message-ID: D'oh! I always thought we were saying "buddha bag." sally donlon FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > By the late 70s it was still a bota bag, altho 'flask' works for me as well. I had never seen this in print until a few months ago and was surprised that it was boTa rather than boDa. I had long since forgotten the word. > Fritz Juengling > >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 03/11/04 05:45AM >>> > Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Russ McClay > > Subject: Re: Fw: hippie trivia question > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than = > > PS => mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. > > > > 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'. > > > > "Don't forget to bring your bota bag." > > > > Southern California - 70's. > > > > Russ > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 11 17:21:43 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:21:43 -0800 Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden In-Reply-To: <20040311141920.69490.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2004, at 6:19 AM, James Smith asked: > So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride" > that sounds natural to you or your students? there is none; this is a paradigm gap for us. that was why i mentioned it. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Thu Mar 11 17:33:13 2004 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:33:13 -0600 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question Message-ID: RE: Page Stephens' friend John re: wineskin I used to have one of those cheesy wineskins, too, John... The goal was to squeeze it into your mouth from a distance down in Austin, anyway -- dramatic and inebriating-- what more could a collegian wish? We called them "botas" and that's still how they're referred to occasionally around here (still selling in souvenir markets, etc.) Your internet translator isn't so great -- "bota" has a first meaning of dull, as in a blunt blade -- rather than boring. But the second meaning (I refer to the Velasquez English-Spanish dictionary, sorry, can't remember which edition at the moment --) Is more clear: in rural Spain and Mexico, a "bota" referred to a bag made from the gut of an animal (sheep or goat) and used to carry butter to market in hot places; the carrier helped keep the contents cool. It's easy to see the relationship of that bota to the wineskin, at least, the non-neoprene cap variety. If you wanted to get cute, I suppose you might say "goata." There is another word for wineskin., in particular -- 2 syllables, starts with an "o" -- but I don't remember using it, though it's more specifically correct. And the Velasquez also lists "pellejo de vino" -- a more literal translation. Buena suerte, Susan Yerkes -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Page Stephens Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:52 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question I received this in the mail from a friend of mine. Anyone know the answer? Page Stephens Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede, leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder, with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout. You may remember these. People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm, Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events where bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather cursory. What did we call it? I vaguely recall it had another name from (Mexican) Spanish...? If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a "bota." I am pretty sure that is a newer name. My Babelfish translator renders "bota" as an adjective meaning "dull." The diminutive form "botilla" is a bootee. Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 11 17:49:13 2004 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:49:13 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: > to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect.< ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Geo HW Bush gave this an added twist back in '88, running agst Dukakis, by referring to "the L word" in a manner that suggested that it was only with the greatest reluctance that he sullied his lips with such a rude expression. A. Murie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:11:36 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:57 PM -0500 3/10/04, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote: > >> nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility, > > family values... It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative buzzwords. Liberals are more likely to refer to "families" in the bare plural. Also one not mentioned here is "lifestyle". (Cf. the gay/gay-friendly bumper sticker "It's not my lifestyle, it's my life", IIRC.) larry horn From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:21:21 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:21:21 -0500 Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices Message-ID: Hindoo was foaled in 1878; as a 2-year old he won his first 7 races, and then was bought by the Dwyer brothers (good Brooklyn boys, the both of them). As a 3-year old he won 18 straight. Robertson's History of Thoroughbred Racing in America says the consequence of these streaks was not entirely positive: "The Dwyers (especially Mike) were notorious bettors, and in every one of these races Hindoo was less than even money -- in fact, the 1 to 2 against him in his first start of the season was the most generous price offered all year." He gives examples of races in Hindoo's 3-year old season when he paid $1 for every $8 bet on him, and $1 to $10. (pp. 131-32) Hanover was a son of Hindoo, but is not discussed in any detail in this book. Bibliographic details upon request. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 9:24 am Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices > Can any racing man or woman help? > > I quote from Clarence Cullen _Tales of the Ex-Tanks_ (1899-1900) 364: > > "Somehow or another," went on Ex-Tank No. 27, irrelevantly and > dreamily, " > I could n-o-t, not, get 'em right that winter. They may have been > runningfor Hogan, but they weren't running for me. When I'd dig a > sleeper up, and > get it right, and lose rest waiting for the day to go down the > line on it, > confidently expecting it 'ud be 30 to 1 or better, the word got > out every > time, by the under-ground, or some way or another, and the skate 'ud > prance to the post with 1 to 3 on chalked in front of his name > [...] Every > one that I looked over and saw worked at grey dawn and salted down > as the > right goods the next time he went to the pump for long money had a > Hanoveror a Hindoo price tacked to him when the slates went up. > > So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price. I can see what it means: > shortodds, but why? Something to do with the 'H'? No sign in OED, > HDAS,Mathews' Americanisms etc. > > Jonathon Green > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:27:33 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:27:33 -0500 Subject: Zigged, should have zagged (1949) Message-ID: In the late 1940s Dizzy Gillespie made a recording with a comic vocal about a hopeless square. Among this square's other shortcomings was that once he "beeped when he should have bopped". I will check out my Dizzy CDs tonight and get a title and date, but it is most likely a year or two before 1949 and seems to me to play upon an existing expression "he zigged, when he should have zagged". George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:55 am Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > --------------------------------------------- > ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED > > SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits > > Story of my life. > > > (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) > Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948 > ...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around > Day Farm With > A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD > HAVE the > mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products > tnall lines, HAVE > Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses > combined to > dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the.. > Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948 728 k > > Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957 > ...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer > and fall of > 1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying > pulfets will feel > 'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What > You Need: > IDEAL CHICKS Topcross.. > Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957 824 k > > Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968 > ...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of > ChristmasBills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and > SHOULD HAVE no problem > making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents > HAVE a > composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample > height which > SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds.. > Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968 1013 k > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:29:38 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:29:38 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more conservative buzzword that just struck me after reading several letters to the editor in yesterday's NYT: "the gays" from those favoring a constitutional restriction of marriage to heterosexuals (or, by the logic of most such letters, to heterosexuals capable of breeding*), vs. "gay people" from those opposed to such a restriction. It always reminds me of earlier uses of "the Jews", "the blacks", etc.--not slurs per se, but invoking these as monolithic, non-individuated groups. In a way, something similar is going on with "the family" as opposed to "families". larry horn *"Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman, in preparation for bearing and raising the next generation...The main point of marriage is orderly procreation...Do the gays really want marriage...?" I'm assuming the proposed amendment will require fertility tests for both partners--otherwise, they're just getting married for love and companionship, and that's not part of the definition. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:39:28 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:39:28 -0500 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question In-Reply-To: <005301c4075f$58af0850$bf28bc3f@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 6:51 AM -0500 3/11/04, Page Stephens wrote: >I received this in the mail from a friend of mine. > >Anyone know the answer? > >Page Stephens > >Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede, >leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder, >with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout. You may remember these. > >People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm, >Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events >where bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather >cursory. > >What did we call it? I vaguely recall it had another name from >(Mexican) Spanish...? > >If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a "bota." >I am pretty sure that is a newer name. My Babelfish translator >renders "bota" as an adjective meaning "dull." The diminutive form >"botilla" is a bootee. > >Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better >than mine. If not, well, peace and love to you anyway. > It was "bota bag" for my and my set. (Talk about buzzwords!) Larry Horn From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:33:59 2004 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:33:59 -0600 Subject: architecting Message-ID: Last month I was teasing my sister about her website update, in which she uses the verb "rearchitect" to describe some work she did on a corporate website. www.seneb.com. Looking at some of her project descriptions that use variants of the term "architect" as a verb, I would argue that there is a struggle going on over this semantic space. "architect" looks like it is deployed to differentiate the structuring of information pathways from the visual-oriented "design" of web pages. ccr -----Original Message----- From: Wendalyn Nichols [mailto:wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:52 AM Subject: architecting Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a job posted by an investment firm: "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..." Wendalyn Nichols From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:42:18 2004 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:42:18 -0500 Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916 Message-ID: Douglas Wilson asks: > What is "Jazz 3e et."? I'm generally ignorant of French. > > Is it "Jazz troisie`me e'tude" = "Jazz, third study" maybe? Then would > there be a couple of earlier "jazz" works? > I am supposing that this is the meaning of the abbreviation and also its significance. Two of the three other paintings on this theme in this book are also dated '15, but none are given any title or identified as an 1st or 2nd attempt at this subject. But earlier versions might have been very casual and not saved by Gleizes or otherwise lost, or perhaps casual and not recognized by him as drafts of a subject he intended to treat in a finished work until he was did the 3rd version. In this latter case, the 1st and 2nd attempts might be the two other studies reproduced in this book. My impression from this catalog raisonne and some other stuff I've looked at is that Gleizes did not visit Chicago while he was in the U. S. He was not here very long, but his stay was for several months, so a trip to Chicago could have been possible. I do not see that his letters have been published. Another French artist visiting the U. S at about this time was Francis Picabia, who also made a study of musicians, dated, if I recall, 1914, but since he didn't identify them as "jazz" musicians, his painting is of merely artistic interest. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 18:45:03 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:45:03 -0500 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:59 PM -0800 3/10/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>... People around here often refer to themselves or another >> > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--... >>The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", > >Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"? > So we can distinguish them from callers to sports talk radio. Larry From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Thu Mar 11 19:00:41 2004 From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:00:41 +0000 Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > At 8:59 PM -0800 3/10/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>> ... People around here often refer to themselves or another >>> > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--... >>> The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", >> >> Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"? 'Of' is a pretty common designator of place in British English (didn't strike me as strange when I came here, though, so can't be too far from my American sensibilities, such as they are). For example, a local carpet shop is "Blatchingtons of Hove" and a music store "Chappell of Bond Street". And then you have folks like Anne of Cleves. If you were to say 'in' it wouldn't sound like you lived there or were from there--you'd sound like a reporter who's gone there to have a look around. 'From' indicates a place of origin. But 'of' associates you with the place more fully (and it with you, I'd say). Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Department of Linguistics and English Language Arts B133 University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QN >>From UK: (01273) 678844 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 19:39:37 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:39:37 -0500 Subject: Schawafel (shawarma + falafel), Amba Sauce Message-ID: This is from today's amNEW YORK (www.am-ny.com), 11 March 2004, pg. 16, col. 2: _Fabu falafel_ (...) Chickpea 23 Third Avenue, East Village 212-254-9500 PHOTO CAPTION: The "Schawafel" combination plate, served only at Chickpea. (O Google hits--ed.) (...) (Col. 4--ed.) With a perfect combination of succulent shred of well-marinated meat and crunchy carmelized outer nuggets, Chickpea's shawarma is one of the best in New York. Douse the holy kosher meat with amba sauce, a piquant Iraqi hot sauce that combines sweet mangos with hot chili. (If it's shawarma+falafel, where did the "c" come from? Schwab's?...Back to ten hours of parking tickets, then I'll get home and relax and read about a massacre in Spain--ed.) (GOOGLE GROUPS) How to make Amba Sauce I am looking for the secret how to make AMBA, the tasty yellow souce for all kind of middle east dishes. The only seasoning I know is mango. ... israel.lists.il-talk - Sep 19, 1998 by bliebig at gmx.de - View Thread (1 article) Re: WHY HITLER KILLED THE JEWS? Why do Jews murder Palestinians ... I ordered extra Amba sauce to celebrate. ... I ordered extra Amba sauce to celebrate." It certainly isn't unbiased factual reporting soc.culture.german - Dec 15, 2003 by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj - View Thread (48 articles) Saddam's JFK Moment ... and anger and then shock. Their faces mirrored sorrow. I ordered extra Amba sauce to celebrate. The sorrow of the Arab students ... alt.politics.bush - Dec 15, 2003 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 11 19:47:45 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:47:45 -0500 Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden In-Reply-To: <915644FF-7380-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:21 AM -0800 3/11/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Mar 11, 2004, at 6:19 AM, James Smith asked: > >>So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride" >>that sounds natural to you or your students? > >there is none; this is a paradigm gap for us. that was why i mentioned >it. > Maybe "He moved in a way I would call striding." Sort of like "Send me a mongoose; make it twins." Or, for that matter, "Either he is going, or I am". larry horn From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Thu Mar 11 20:02:34 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:02:34 -0800 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:33 AM 3/11/04, Susan wrote: >RE: Page Stephens' friend John re: wineskin >There is another word for wineskin., in particular -- 2 syllables, >starts with an "o" -- but I don't remember using it, though it's more >specifically correct. olpe ? From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Mar 11 20:14:01 2004 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:14:01 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20subject-verb=20agre?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ement=20-=20stridden?= Message-ID: A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat "ridden", why can't "stride" beget "stridden?" Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 11 21:21:19 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:21:19 -0800 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: Does anyone remember that cop spoof show in the 80s called 'Sledge Hammer'? He was a one man I'm-gonna- solve- all- the- crime- by- myself type of guy. He hated criminals worse than poison and liberals more than criminals. I do remember him saying 'Yogurt-sucking' . If you can find that show somewhere on the reruns (or on Ebay), I'm sure it would provide a lot of phrases. Fritz Juengling >>> dwhause at JOBE.NET 03/10/04 07:05PM >>> So far, the 'best' right to left insult I've heard is "Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-sucking, bunny-hugging, Yuppie tree-faggot." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" Here are some others: From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 11 21:31:55 2004 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: The phrase "L-word" was around during the '84 election. The ploy worked, too--only one state went to Mondale. Fritz J >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 03/11/04 09:49AM >>> > to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect.< ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Geo HW Bush gave this an added twist back in '88, running agst Dukakis, by referring to "the L word" in a manner that suggested that it was only with the greatest reluctance that he sullied his lips with such a rude expression. A. Murie From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Mar 11 19:16:08 2004 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:16:08 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500 Laurence Horn writes: > It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the > generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative > buzzwords. Liberals are more likely to refer to "families" Or more often "workingfamilies." It used to be "workingmen" then "workingmenandwomen." But now I guess it includes the kid who mows the lawn instead of going to polo practice. D I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 12 00:30:50 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:30:50 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_subject-verb_agreement_-_stri?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dden?= In-Reply-To: <15e.2c354875.2d822289@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2004, at 12:14 PM, Steve Boatti wrote: > A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat > "ridden", > why can't "stride" beget "stridden?" well, obviously it can; the dictionaries that list "stridden" as the past participle presumably have citations for this form. i never denied that *some* people have "stridden"; i merely claimed that a great many have a paradigm gap here. (i see that the Cambridge Grammar lists "stridden" with a question mark.) so the question is: why doesn't analogy work here? the answer is complex, but it depends on the observation that some analogies are hugely more likely than others. the analogies normally tap into the morphological regularities of the language. why isn't the past participle "strided"? the answer is that past tense forms are much more frequent than past participle forms, and that -ed past participles are almost without exception simply identical to the pasts. so you're going to hear past "strode" before (and more frequently than) any past participle for "stride" that you might hear, and once you've registered "strode" as the past, "strided" is no longer available as the past participle. (but if you hear enough instances of "strided" as a *past tense* form, then "strided" as past participle becomes possible.) once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are then four possible analogies giving a past participle: 1. pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven) 2. pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken) 3. pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found) 4. pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven) the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" - "strode"). only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write. (note that all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have an alveolar obstruent after it. so "stride" fits well into this class.) so, given the system of english morphology, what you'd *like* to go for is (a) stride - strided - strided but once you've learned "strode" you have to go for some irregular pattern. the best of these is pattern 4 ("stridden"): (b) stride - strode - stridden but you might easily not have extracted a mini-pattern for these few verbs; if you haven't, you have nowhere to go: (c) stride - strode - GAP. ("stroden", "striden", and "strode" are not impossible, just very very unlikely.) the larger point is that people do in fact live with paradigm gaps. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 12 00:37:49 2004 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:37:49 -0800 Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question In-Reply-To: <200403110933.1b1u3E8p3NZFmQ0@tanager> Message-ID: >...We called them "botas" and that's still how they're referred to >occasionally around here (still selling in souvenir markets, etc.) We added the "bag" (i.e., bota bag) most of the time. Rima From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 12 00:49:45 2004 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:49:45 -0500 Subject: snow-related deaths Message-ID: from my wife: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:01:30 -0500 From: Rene s Mandel Subject: A Philadelphia Euphemism A response when I asked someone who said she was 4th generation Philadelphian, land of cheese-steaks and snow-related deaths, what a snow-related death was: Well, we didn't have any this year, but last year they were referred to as "snow-related deaths" by the news when somebody stole somebody else's shoveled parking place (you know, the ones people put lawnchairs on to protect?) and the "owner" of said spot shot him. It was just funny because everyone I talked to knew what had happened just from the title. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 01:55:51 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:55:51 -0500 Subject: 'mo Message-ID: Grace to Will, on tonight's Will & Grace: "Be a *guy*, ya big 'mo!" larry horn From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 03:23:59 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:23:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut" In-Reply-To: <140.2410b382.2d815a7f@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's another example of a word first appearing as the name of a horse. cosmonaut (OED 1959) 1955 _Wash. Post_ 26 July 19 (ProQuest) Saratoga Results ... Cosmonaut [name of horse]. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 03:45:53 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:45:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Karate" In-Reply-To: <200403120324.i2C3O1A28362@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: karate (OED 1955) 1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest) Regardless of what the occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes. It's a combination of boxing, wrestling and kicking called karate. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 12 05:11:37 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:11:37 EST Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:24:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > > Here's another example of a word first appearing as the name of a horse. > > > cosmonaut (OED 1959) > > 1955 _Wash. Post_ 26 July 19 (ProQuest) Saratoga Results ... Cosmonaut > [name of horse]. > > > Fred Shapiro > > (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955 ...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky, holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems. COSMONAUT Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955 833 k Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955 ...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space for 10 minutes.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955 790 k Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955 ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the astronauts a.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955 847 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 12 05:07:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:07:24 EST Subject: Antedating of "Karate" Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes: > karate (OED 1955) > > 1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest) Regardless of what the > occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese > sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to > break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes. It's a combination of boxing, > wrestling and kicking called karate. > > Fred Shapiro (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gazette And Bulletin - 3/10/1947 ...JAPANESE jni jiUu training garments (killed KARATE men wear a "Bell' attesting their.....go instead -of just practicing. The KARATE stamp their bare feet on the cold.....say about basing cut out all the Ijarbarian JAPANESE sports, the at university still.....students eagerly every bruCal movyin the KARATE V inch varied I thls 'week'Tnelr vote.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Monday, March 10, 1947 574 k From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 12 05:18:44 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:18:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Karate" Message-ID: That same AP story ran a week earlier. ...go instead -of just practicing. The KARATE stamp their bare feet on the cold.....Japanese jni jiUu training garments (killed KARATE men wear a "Bell' attesting their.....students eagerly every bruCal movyin the KARATE V inch varied I thls 'week'Tnelr vote.....alr and vilent kicks in the. groin. KARATE men are taught how to deliver sudden.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Monday, March 10, 1947 574 k Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: Antedating of "Karate" > karate (OED 1955) > > 1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest) Regardless of what the > occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese > sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to > break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes. It's a combination of boxing, > wrestling and kicking called karate. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 12 05:54:26 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:54:26 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut" In-Reply-To: <1d0.1bc159f2.2d82a089@aol.com> Message-ID: > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955 >...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky, >holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery >Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems. >COSMONAUT >Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet >maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous.. >Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955 833 k > >Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955 >...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space >for 10 minutes.. >Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955 790 k > >Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955 >...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the >astronauts a.. >Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955 847 k Something is a little bit wrong here. Gagarin was the first one up, in 1961, right? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 12 06:15:19 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:15:19 EST Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921); Shooting fish in a barrel (1911) Message-ID: SOMETHING THE CAT DRAGGED IN CAT DRAGGED IN--11,100 Google hits, 7,040 Google Groups hits DOG DRAGGED IN--245 Google hits, 142 Google Groups hits This is listed in the DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS (1993, pg. 104) as from "hunting," but no date is given. OED has one mention of "something the cat dragged in" from 1973. I had a cat, but all it did was sleep and eat. It didn't drag in anything. Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs? I've heard that dogs will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Mansfield News - 4/25/1921 ...contest always look like somethINg the CAT DRAGGED IN? Our observation has been that.....New York to lad., wheelINg her two children IN a baby carriage, termINated IN Elizabeth.....extended for a j accident to the carriage IN Elizabeth figured materially IN Mrs. Alien.....than people now live ia patched houses, IN cellars and IN hats, constructed by the.. Mansfield, Ohio Monday, April 25, 1921 688 k Marion Star - 4/25/1921 ...beauty contest alwiys look like somethINg CAT DRAGGED IN? out tools. I 4 IB addition to.....credits, lINd fINancial j IN operations IN connection willi Buell trade, Trade i IN.....by frr.grofs lila IN extraction, share? IN ihis "iroi.rovc-.j-r-. el fottcrncfj IN.....No. lim HIJMF COnnCE. Daily Proverb IN honestly, lill IJO raaii'; IN K'-.'bhors.. Marion, Ohio Monday, April 25, 1921 590 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL SHOOT FISH IN A BARREL-349 Google hits, 642 Google Groups hits SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL--12,700 Google hits, 17,600 Google Groups hits The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS (pg. 102) has 1939. OED ("miserable on food"--oops, "miserable on sports") has nothing? (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sheboygan Daily Press - 6/30/1911 ...wheAt iA this country is like shootINg FISH IN A bArrel. ThAt's the kINd of A yeAr I.....first corner he spied Bessie's Aunt, book IN hAnd, com fortAbly ensconced IN A hAmmock.....IN A Tree. PhilAdelphiA. Accosted by trAmps IN A smAll strip of woods IN GermAntown.....grAy wAtered silk or grAy sAtIN And mounted IN gun metAl And, IN dull gilt. The gun metAl.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 30, 1911 983 k From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 12 06:24:26 2004 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:24:26 -0500 Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921); Shooting fish in a barrel (1911) In-Reply-To: <1dc.1c2a4e6e.2d82af77@aol.com> Message-ID: >SOMETHING THE CAT DRAGGED IN >.... I had a cat, but all it did was sleep and eat. It didn't drag in >anything. > Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs? I've heard that dogs >will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers. Cats bring home the mutilated corpses of mice and other small creatures sometimes, and I suppose this is the basis for the expression. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 12 06:54:51 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:54:51 EST Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"; Crying Towel (1929) Message-ID: RE: COSMONAUT Ach! It looks like the "1955" Sheboygan newspaper is off, too. I'm making a list of Newspaperarchive errors. I couldn't open up the article. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CRYING TOWEL CRYING TOWEL--4,190 Google hits, 3,740 Google Groups hits Not in OED. The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS gives no date. I discussed "crying towel" before on ADS-L, but I can't open up our archives right now, either...I checked THE SPORTING NEWS, but it's not close to these cites. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Bedford Gazette - 10/31/1930 ...sportsmen nor do we: -deem it advisable to "CRYING, TOWEL" when, .the, home: .team loses.. Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, October 31, 1930 965 k Chronicle Telegram - 11/19/1930 ...the Xotre Dame supporters to get? out the 'CRYING TOWEL' just because they have lost Joe.....than "Pug" Rentner and you don't see us CRYING over Rentner's loss. We'll miss.. Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, November 19, 1930 940 k Appleton Post Crescent - 10/24/1931 ...the other day and we went running for the CRYING TOWEL Amalgamated Gadgets are of the.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, October 24, 1931 869 k Coshocton Tribune - 11/18/1930 ...Nov. 18. Professional golfers got out their CRYING TOWELS today and mourned the.. Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, November 18, 1930 667 k Havre Daily News - 12/6/1930 ...Associated Press) ROCKVILLE CENTER, N. Y. CRYING TOWELS are being distributed by the.. Havre, Montana Saturday, December 06, 1930 869 k Reno Evening Gazette - 11/20/1930 ...long been the cause of an active market in CRYING TOWELS when he starts to tell of what.....than any man who has ever owned tfurro. "CRYING Jim" has.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, November 20, 1930 736 k Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 12/6/1930 ...will be handled. Rockville Centre, N. Y. CRYING TOWELS are being distributed by the.. Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Saturday, December 06, 1930 833 k Chronicle Telegram - 4/9/1929 ...sending for j CHICAGO, April 9. A Unke, the CRYING TOWELS before mid-summer. And there.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 09, 1929 933 k Sheboygan Press - 4/10/1929 ...has the opposition sending for the CRYING TOWELS before mid-summer. And there.. Sheboygan, Wisconsin Wednesday, April 10, 1929 914 k From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 11:28:29 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:28:29 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut" In-Reply-To: <1d0.1bc159f2.2d82a089@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) > Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955 > ...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky, > holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery > Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems. COSMONAUT > Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet > maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous.. > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955 833 k > > Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955 > ...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space > for 10 minutes.. > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955 790 k > > Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955 > ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the > astronauts a.. > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955 847 k Don't you think these just might be misdated? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 12:15:07 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:15:07 -0500 Subject: Slight Antedating of "Bamboo Curtain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: bamboo curtain (OED 1949 Mar.) 1949 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Feb. 42 (ProQuest) If a Communist government chooses to lower a "bamboo curtain" around China's economy the United States stands to lose all or part of nearly a $400,000,000 chunk of annual trade from its total $2,000,000,000 yearly business wiht the Orient. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 12 12:25:09 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:25:09 -0500 Subject: Slight Antedating of "Veep" In-Reply-To: <200403121215.i2CCFAf17850@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: veep (OED 1949 June) 1949 _Wash. Post_ 28 May B14 (ProQuest) [Bob] Hope has become a favorite pal of Veep Alben Barkley. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Mar 12 13:37:19 2004 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:37:19 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"; Crying Towel (1929) In-Reply-To: <1dd.1c33b35f.2d82b8bb@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 01:54:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > CRYING TOWEL > > CRYING TOWEL--4,190 Google hits, 3,740 Google Groups hits > > Not in OED. The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS gives no date. HDAS 1928, citing Zwilling's TAD Lexicon. JTS From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Mar 12 15:33:25 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:33:25 -0500 Subject: 'mo Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : Grace to Will, on tonight's Will & Grace: : "Be a *guy*, ya big 'mo!" Proof that TV scriptwriters read ADS-L as a way of keeping up with current linguistic trends. Entirely :-| , of course. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Mar 12 15:36:07 2004 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:36:07 -0500 Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden Message-ID: From: Steve Boatti : A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat : "ridden", why can't "stride" beget "stridden?" FTR, "stridden" is what I came up with--but then again, my past tense for collide is collid[1] and my past of highlight is highlit, so y'all can feel free to ignore any of my verb intuitions. But while I won't argue that paradigm gaps are impossible, I think analogy's a very powerful force--and for stridden, it'd be a *particularly* powerful one, since it's got both hide-hid-hidden *and* ride-rode-ridden in its favor. [1] Seriously. It's strong enough that if I'm reading, say, a newspaper article aloud to someone, I'll often unconsciously replace collided with collid. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 12 17:14:53 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:14:53 -0500 Subject: politically sensitive labels Message-ID: For your information I am putting up an article I wrote for another list about the current ideological use of "the family." I wrote it in a political context on a conservative list so please excuse its polemical tone. I thought, however, that it might bring a little light into the current discussions of the politicization of the word "family" and by extension "the family". I just thought it might be of interest to you and clarify a few issues. Page Stephens How many of you have listened to our politicians telling us that the basis of all societies is the family. Had any of my students written that on an exam in anthropology 1 I would have flunked them because it is absolute nonsense. The only socio-cultural formations which were ever family based were even marginally family based were marginal hunting and gathering groups who lived in areas where it was impossible to form higher level groups because they were unable technologically to support more than very small groups as per the Great Basin Shoshone. This also accounts for the fact that they had bilateral kinship terminologies which were appropriate to such forms of social formation. But even the Great Basin Shoshone gathered into larger groups when they were able to do it as during the season when pine nuts were plentiful and when they hunted antelope which of necessity required larger numbers of people than the family could provide. The fact is that families are functional groups within an environment writ large, i.e. in terms of both physical/technological limitations and the functional demands of larger scale social formations. The Shoshone were the exception rather than the rule, moreover, and you find very few other examples of even marginally family based socio-cultural formations. This is a fact whether our politicians want to recognize it or not their incessant quest for office quite often overcomes their common sense and lack of knowledge of anthropology. Even hunting and gathering groups which had access to more fertile environments such who lived in fertile areas such as along river banks where fish were combined into larger socio cultural groups. There is a feed back problem here because such marginal groups as the Great Basin Shoshone were unable to develop higher levels of technology because of their migratory existence. This brings up the recent nonsense which George W. Bush among others is promulgating to the public in terms of marriage as something which underlies and always has underlain every society which has ever existed and that therefore we need to pass a constitutional amendment which would forbid gays from marrying. His and their ignorance is so sublime that it would surpass understanding if we did not know that he and they were attempting to bounce the boobs, i.e. the ignoranti in order to get themselves elected or reelected to office by pulling every cultural string they are able to in order to keep from being put into the unemployment line. Most of them I would argue are simply ignorant fools who can on this level be excused for not knowing the difference between marriage which is a ceremony and the family which is a functional social unit and who therefore do not know the difference between the two. I will also excuse them on the ground of sheer ignorance for suggesting that marriage as we know it is and has always been a universal in human society even though it has differed in many ways in different societies. I will not forgive those of them who thump the Bible without ever having read it and declare that it suggests that there is one and only one form of marriage and the family which coincidentally happens to be the one which those who would elect them to office believe in. In this case they are not only ignorant of the nature of human socio-cultural formations but also ignorant of the texts which they claim to be their authority for their august proclamations. It makes me want to gag because at least I, a total nonbeliever in the existence of any gods, spirits, etc., have apparently read the book they consider to be holy and know more about what it says in terms of marriage and the family than they do. I invite you all to read the Bible some day and then tell me if you think the pronouncements of our politicians on the subject of marriage and the family have any more relationship to what the Bible says than a snake has hips. Then after you have been disillusioned about what our politicians are saying about the absolute commandments of the god which wrote the holy book they claim to worship in terms of marriage and the family I invite you to read an elementary textbook on anthropology. I am not attempting to disillusion you in terms of your various beliefs in the existence of gods, spirits, etc. I am attempting to disillusion you about what our politicians are telling you in terms of the universality of "the family" "marriage", etc. Don't believe me then read the Bible and one you have carefully read it we can go from there. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane Campbell" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: Re: politically sensitive labels > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Duane Campbell > Subject: Re: politically sensitive labels > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500 Laurence Horn > writes: > > > It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the > > generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative > > buzzwords. Liberals are more likely to refer to "families" > > Or more often "workingfamilies." It used to be "workingmen" then > "workingmenandwomen." But now I guess it includes the kid who mows the > lawn instead of going to polo practice. > > D > > I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 12 17:46:30 2004 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958) Message-ID: Here is a reference to Tennessee Ernie's use of the phrase. I am curious if anyone else ever used pea-pickin' or pea pickers in the way he did. My guess is that he invented the term in that sense but I do not know. If any of you ol' pea pickers are able to find any reference to it other than Tennessee Ernie his original stage name before he went uptown and discovered he had a last name and became more respectable in the 1950s I would love to hear about it. It is from http://www.tvacres.com/catch_b.htm Page Stephens "Bless your pea-pickin' hearts" - The signature signoff of singer comedian Ernie Ford who hosted the musical variety THE FORD SHOW/NBC/1956-61. He was fond of ending his program with traditional religious songs which he called the "finest love songs of all". Born Ernest Jennings Ford in 1919 in the town of Bristol, Tennessee, "Tennessee" Ernie Ford was the first country singer to appear at the Paladium in London in 1953. His homespun humor and corny country ways were evident in such phrases like "Nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" and "Feels like I've been rode hard and put away wet". Inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 1990, Ernie Ford died of complications due to liver ailments on October 17, 1991. His most popular song was "Sixteen Tons" written by Merle Travis in 1947. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 12 23:27:08 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:27:08 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?= In-Reply-To: <11b.2ee5ae76.2d7a00ac@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused >with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there >is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. Bethany From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 13 00:40:18 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:40:18 -0800 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_'mo_=3D_homo?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it >> confused >> with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not >> that there >> is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. > > Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. /za/. derived from the spelling, presumably. stanford is famous for two-part back-clipping, giving CoHo for Coffee House, CoPo for Corner Pocket, FloMo for Florence Moore (a dorm), MemChu for Memorial Church, etc. the pronunciations are all based on the spellings of the clipped forms. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 13 00:42:22 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:42:22 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused >>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there >>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. > >Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. > >Bethany I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go]. I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but I think the spelling pronunciation prevails. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 13 01:02:24 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:02:24 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: <00B2104A-7487-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 4:40 PM -0800 3/12/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Mar 12, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it >>>confused >>>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not >>>that there >>>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za. >> >>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. > >/za/. derived from the spelling, presumably. > >stanford is famous for two-part back-clipping, giving CoHo for Coffee >House, CoPo for Corner Pocket, FloMo for Florence Moore (a dorm), cf. HoJo (Howard Johnson, both the food chain and the ex-Mets baseball player), FloJo (Florence Joyner). Which came first, I wonder? In particular, was HoJo a model for the Stanfordiana, given the recurrence of the -o motif? In any case, spelling rules in all these cases, as with SoHo (for south of Houston St., both with [au] nuclei), TriBeCa (Triangle below Canal St.), and other neighborhood clipronyms in NYC and I assume elsewhere. Of course, SoHo is based partly on the London neighborhood name which isn't a clipronym. larry >MemChu for Memorial Church, etc. the pronunciations are all based on >the spellings of the clipped forms. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Mar 13 01:06:17 2004 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:06:17 -0600 Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921); Message-ID: A series of dogs have never dragged in anything in particular (although one sometimes came in the house with a guilty look on her face and released the June bug she had in her mouth.) Our female cats weren't draggers-in, but two of three consecutive tomcats have brought many things - the first specialized in critters such as mice, frogs, and once a tomato worm the size of my thumb; the second used to 'kill' dishtowels my wife had set to dry on the porch, clumps of grass, paper towels, and similar items. Both would bring their prizes to the door, meow until you came out to admire their 'kill', and then stalk away. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs? I've heard that dogs will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers. From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 13 01:16:16 2004 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:16:16 -0800 Subject: useful site for finding movie maledictions In-Reply-To: <200401310340.i0V3e2R08875@hypatia.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: http://www.screenit.com is a movie review site that among other things provides parental warnings on what they consider offensive language. A Google search on, e.g., "skank OR skanks site: screenit.com" turns up 31 different films containing the word; a search on "faggot OR faggots site:screenit.com" turns up 77. You can get a sense of how widely they cast their net from the list of offensive terms they give for the recent movie "Bad Santa": Phrases: "F*ck-ass," "Loud f*cing asshole," "F*cking hilarious," "F*ck the loofa, let's go," "F*ck you," "F*ck me?" "Get the f*ck out of here," "F*ck stick" (penis), "What the f*ck /are you doing/is that /do you care/are you doing here/are you talking about?" "F*ck this," "What the f*ck "F*cking retard," "F*ck me Santa" (sexual and said many times), "Are you /off your f*cking meds/f*cking with me?" "F*ckers," "You're f*cking me," "The sound of f*cking someone in the ass," "Thank the f*ck Christ," "I f*ck one person," "Clean as a f*cking whistle," "No f*cking way," "He's a/you f*cking moron," "Jesus f*cking Christ," "He's a f*cking faggot," "More butt-f*cking," "Sh*tty," "Bullsh*t," "Pack your sh*t," "I don't give a sh*t," "Dipsh*t (loser)," "No sh*t," "You're not going to sh*t right for a week," "Shat," "Sh*t yeah," "(I'll be dipped in) Dog sh*t," "This is bullsh*t," "Well, sh*t kid," "You scared the holy sh*t out of me," "Don't want sh*t," "Sh*t happens when you party naked (seen on a T-shirt), "You sneaky little pr*ck," "Nothing sucks more ass than this," "Brats," "Pissing," "You pissed yourself," "You're an asshole," "My ass," "Piss everything away," "Bastards," "Midget," "Schmo," "Loser," "Fat ass," "Moron," "Dumb ass," "Snot rag," "Freaking me out," "You asshole," "Who's the bitch now?" "Ass clown," "Chicks" and "Broads" (women), "Nut job," "Balls" and "Nuts" (testicles), "Let's get the hell out of here," "Your pathetic," "Mind your own G*ddamn business," "Screw you," "You idiot," "What the hell is that?" "Are you insane?" "Sorry ass," "Shut up," "Sucks," "He kicked my ass," "You jack-off" and "Bitch." Geoff Nunberg From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 01:49:28 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:49:28 EST Subject: Long-Tailed Cat & Rocking Chairs (1953); Off Like a Dirty Shirt (1948) Message-ID: NERVOUS AS A LONG-TAILED CAT IN A ROOM FULL OF ROCKING CHAIRS LONG-TAILED CAT + ROCKING CHAIRS--749 Google hits, 649 Google Groups hits The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS doesn't have a single quotation from Tennessee Ernie Ford. Maybe Tennessee wasn't American enough? Beware that it's "HOUSE full of rocking chairs" as well as "ROOM full of rocking chairs." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Salisbury Times - 9/30/1953 ...of a long-TAILED CAT in a house full of ROCKING CHAIRS. For a woman to pick out her.....t going to be ever. So they kept him in a ROOM on the third floor and never mentioned.....all the rest of his life, smirking, lering. ROCKING his head, radiating savoir faire.....homegrown apple, instead of as nervous as a CAT in an aviarv. The little fellow was shown.. Salisbury, Maryland Wednesday, September 30, 1953 603 k Gettysburg Times - 12/6/1954 ...of I a long-TAILED CAT in a house ftffi'rf ROCKING CHAIRS. Vol. 52, No. 289 Adams Only.....will be gives in j parade st Harrisburg. j ROOM 101 at the high school building j.....of the j at St. lanatius and travel needs CAT.hoiic Church, Buchanan. Valley, xhursaay.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, December 06, 1954 974 k Times Recorder - 10/1/1957 ...we are as nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS." Mrs. A. G.....life's most difficult problems. The Office CAT Television sets will never replace.....By Jimmy Hallo 4N HOUR READING IN THE DOC'S ROOM BEFORE HE BECKONED TO THE IMMER S4MCTUM.....Harrison of Confidential went into a club ROOM known as a hangout of stars and one of.. Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, October 01, 1957 762 k Newark Advocate - 5/6/1958 ...As nervous as long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is the kind of.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a sunny porch. Although he'd like more.. Newark, Ohio Tuesday, May 06, 1958 616 k Williamsport Sun Gazette - 5/10/1958 ...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in i8 _ROOM fi.ll (if ROCKING CHAIRS" is, the kind.....W 4Hi tt. ufler tat 2-7 oi Like Well-Fed CAT on Sunny Porch W illiamspprti Saturday, I.. Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 10, 1958 363 k Salisbury Times - 5/6/1958 ...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is the. kind of.....off the road and into a utility pole. The CAT received about damages, police, estimated.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a sunny porch. 'Although he'd like.. Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, May 06, 1958 587 k Newport Daily News - 5/6/1958 ...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a. ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is .the kind of.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a sunny porch. Although he'd like more.....to have been sworn into the Navy today. His ROOM -mate, also a Navy recruit, followed him.....Robt. Q. Lewlll Newi Draper News Music ROOM Manic World Tonight .'Elsenhower HsOO.. Newport, Rhode Island Tuesday, May 06, 1958 766 k Gettysburg Times - 7/24/1958 ...Nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in ROOMful of ROCKING CHAIRS." "I feel like I been rode.....that I am being watched in the living ROOM, where people are relaxed where Pop is.....When the receptionist left the waiting ROOM, a moment, the last "patient.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1958 745 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OFF LIKE A DIRTY SHIRT OFF LIKE A DIRTY SHIRT--513 Google hits, 173 Google Groups hits The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "off like a bride's nightie" (1960s+), but otherwise it's a bit off on this. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: Let's make like a ... ... Let's make like a prom dress and take off. I'm off like a dirty shirt Jeannie Signature line? Disclaimer? Why? I don't claim anything. ... rec.humor - Jul 8, 1991 by Jeannie *wicked witch* West - View Thread (72 articles) Pg. 2?, col. 3: Hot after a news scoop, we took off like a dirty shirt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RE: COSMONAUT Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955 790 k > > Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955 > ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the > astronauts a.. > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955 847 k Don't you think these just might be misdated? Fred Shapiro I had already posted that I had made an error in not recognizing the Newspaperarchive misdating. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Mar 13 02:29:05 2004 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:29:05 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote: >>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. >> > >I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go]. >I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but >I think the spelling pronunciation prevails. So is it /tsa/ or /za/? I find it difficult to imagine saying, "Let's get some /tsa/." What are typical sentences containing 'za? ? Thanks, Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 13 03:36:14 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:36:14 -0500 Subject: 'mo = homo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. >>> >> >>I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go]. >>I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but >>I think the spelling pronunciation prevails. > >So is it /tsa/ or /za/? > >I find it difficult to imagine saying, "Let's get some /tsa/." What are >typical sentences containing 'za? > Yours is typical, but without the affricate. "Let's get some /za/." Not to be confused with copping some z's, which nobody probably does anymore. (At least not in so many words.) Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 13 04:19:56 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:19:56 -0500 Subject: Long-Tailed Cat & Rocking Chairs (1953); Off Like a Dirty Shirt (1948) In-Reply-To: <90.438f4b47.2d83c2a8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955 > > ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the > > astronauts a.. > > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955 847 k > > Don't you think these just might be misdated? > > Fred Shapiro > > I had already posted that I had made an error in not recognizing the > Newspaperarchive misdating. Sorry, our messages crossed in the ether. The lesson for all of us is that Newspaperarchive antedatings are often the products of misdating, and the article needs to be opened and examined to see whether the date appears on the page itself. The more spectacular the antedating, the more likely it is to be misdated. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 13 06:18:47 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:18:47 -0500 Subject: Early cite for Canuck Message-ID: As Fred Shapiro has recently pointed out, race-horses quite often have names early in the life of a word. While not an antedating, at least for the derogatory name, I found 20 June, 1840 _Alton(IL) Telegraph_ 4?/1(Newspaperarchive) (An ad for a horse at stud) <> Depending on how far back the career of 'Canuck' went, he certainly could have helped popularize the word. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 06:44:54 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:44:54 EST Subject: Animal Crackers (1883); Whistling Woman & Crowing Hen (1840) Message-ID: ANIMAL CRACKERS We'll re-check "animal crackers" on Newspaperarchive.com. Nabisco produced the famous ones in 1902, but I had found an earlier "animal crackers" advertisement in the October 1895 LADIES' HOME JOURNAL. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) North Adams Transcript - 5/14/1900 ...experience has taught us what you dark's ANIMAL CRACKERS 6c quart CHARCOAL, CHARCOAL.. North Adams, Massachusetts Monday, May 14, 1900 0 k Marion Daily Star - 5/15/1899 ...on top of the chiffonier ami a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and don't forget.. Marion, Ohio Monday, May 15, 1899 737 k Perry Pilot - 4/25/1883 ...intervals, along the table, were plates of ANIMAL CRACKERS, standing np to their tnees.....Such an array of CRACKERS 1 There were CRACKERS as large as a tea-plate CRACKERS as.....it; but I dare say your father will think CRACKERS an improvement on any other style of.....sight. There were two banks of square CRACKERS, built up o represent the piers of a.. Perry, Iowa Wednesday, April 25, 1883 580 k Pg. 7?, col. 2: At 5, they were ushered into the dining-room. There, in the middle of the table, was the famous center-piece that has cost the boys so much planning. There were two banks of square crackers, built up to represent the piers of a bridge, about eighteen inches high, and across the top rested a mammoth cracker, two feet long and one and a half feet wide. On this stood a cracker elephant, a foot high, with big ears--a regular cracker Jumbo. He was made to stand by means of wires that were put into the dough before baking. Among the crackers that formed the piers were vines and mosses, supposed to be growing. SUch an array of crackers! There were crackers so large as a tea-plate--crackers as small as a half-dollar; hard ones and soft ones, square ones and round ones, sweet ones and those not sweet--eighteen different kinds. At intervals, along the table, were plates of animal crackers, standing up to their knees in wine-colored jelly. There were cracker-sandwiches and nice little cracker-pies and cracker-coffee, for a beverage. Mrs. Green has to confess that the cracker party was a great success, and the children declared that they had enjoyed it more than any other which the twins had given.--_Good Cheer_. Evening Bulletin - 10/17/1895 ...received the booby's prize, a string of ANIMAL CRACKERS. Other Parties. Little Karl.....and dancing. A new game was played called. ANIMAL Gum Combination. Prizes awarded to the.. Decatur, Illinois Thursday, October 17, 1895 460 k Newark Daily Advocate - 2/14/1895 ...a small boy exclaimed as he sorted over the ANIMAL CRACKERS on his plate, "Here's a.. Newark, Ohio Thursday, February 14, 1895 1026 k News - 5/25/1897 ...sarnb, 16ct extra ginger snaps. So, ANIMAL CRACKERS; lOo. peiiUta oreams, 200. 0.....BAILINCJS. HET Another large invoice of CRACKERS and rases direct from tbe celebrated.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, May 25, 1897 973 k Democratic Standard - 4/28/1899 ...on top of the cbiSonier and a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and don't forgot.. Coshocton, Ohio Friday, April 28, 1899 1042 k Mountain Democrat - 5/13/1899 ...on top of chiffonier and a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and tlori't forget.. Placerville, California Saturday, May 13, 1899 541 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN NEVER COME TO A VERY GOOD END WHISTLING WOMAN + CROWING HEN--213 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits Variously phrased. Also, "a whistling woman and a crowing hen is neither good to beast nor men." Or, "a whistling woman and a crowing hen will always come to some bad end." The following Google site also had "long-tailed cat in a house of rocking chairs," and we're checking on the other phrases in the "Dixie" list. Somebody's got to do this stuff, and we now have the tools. (GOOGLE) http://uptowncity.com/Dixie/dict3.htm A whistlin' woman and a crowin' hen never comes to a good end. (Don't put on airs.) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Daily Gleaner - 6/13/1987 ...of and reason for the proverb: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN are abominations unto.....version of the proverb Is: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN are neither fit for.....and Man li. give the version: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN are neither fit for.....Proverbs however, gives. 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN will fear the old lad.. Kingston, Kingston Saturday, June 13, 1987 497 k Daily Gleaner - 7/13/1982 ...people said it was 'A WHISTLING lass and a CROWING HEN" just as in England, except that.....Nuff'said. -The Listener WHISTLING WOMAN I recently found amongst; _. my notes a.....might be' chastised and told "A WHISTLING WOMAN is an abomination to, the Lord." I do.....they all said "WOMAN" instead of lacs. I even gathered that.. Kingston, Kingston Tuesday, July 13, 1982 630 k New Era - 11/20/1889 ...ladies, the old saying: A WHISTLING: WOMAN and CROWING HEN, Are neither fit for.....a fire. On the other hand, though artistic WHISTLING has become quite an accomplishment.. Humeston, Iowa Wednesday, November 20, 1889 750 k Republican Compiler - 5/26/1840 ...that you say? Sol. Oh nothing. A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN, they vrsed to say.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 26, 1840 894 k Pg. 2, col. 4: _Sol._--Oh! nothing. A whistling woman and a crowing hen, they used to say, ought to be hanged; but I believe you are only a "_cackling hen_." Frederick Post - 9/17/2001 ...my mother's warning that "a WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN come to no good." Has.....organize one A FAN OF WHISTLING DEAR FAN OF WHISTLING: You're about to get your wish.....t believe I said that What does an older WOMAN do if she doesn't like her.....to receive one of those There is also "WHISTLING in the and "WHISTLING a happy tune.. Frederick, Maryland Monday, September 17, 2001 1835 k Middletown Times Herald - 2/12/1932 ...World War. Q. Is the proverb "A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN is neither gcod for.....morally responsible for the death of one WOMAN and the injury of another whose ankle.....She may be to your neighborhood. This WOMAN who's misunderstood. "A toy wife, a.....value. Q. Who was Mata Hari? A. A native WOMAN of the Dutch East Indies who was a spy.. Middletown, New York Friday, February 12, 1932 846 k Press Gazette - 6/30/1967 ...A crooning cow, a CROWING HEN and a WHISTLING WOMAN boded never luck to a James.. Hillsboro, Ohio Friday, June 30, 1967 529 k Chronicle Telegram - 9/17/2001 ...my mother's warning that "a WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN come to no good." Has.....organize one A Fan of WHISTLING Dear Fan of WHISTLING: You're about to get your wish.....to receive one of those There is also "WHISTLING in the and "WHISTLING a happy tune.....I agree with "Whistler in Jenks, Okla." WHISTLING IS a beautiful art form. How can.. Elyria, Ohio Monday, September 17, 2001 498 k Middletown Times Herald - 2/5/1932 ...Q. Is the old quotation "A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN, is neither fit for.. Middletown, New York Friday, February 05, 1932 863 k Middletown Times Herald - 3/24/1932 ...Is the origin of the proverb "A WHISTLING WOMAN and n CROWING HEN is neither good for.....than 35 years ago to take pictures of a WOMAN feeding chickens, a running horse and.....no special distinction was awakened by the CROWING of cocks, i creased the value of.....down. (i Feminine Psychology I A Hollywood WOMAN divorced a i J traveling salesman the.. Middletown, New York Thursday, March 24, 1932 845 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 07:17:56 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:17:56 EST Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1860); Canuck Message-ID: CANUCK I did an important post on "Canuck" on 23 December 1997 (old archives). I uncovered interesting 1839 and 1840 cites. The various spellings make this a very, very difficult search term. Paper of Record is digitizing early Canadian newspapers, and I will re-visit "Canuck" later this year when many more newspapers are added to the database. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FISH OR CUT BAIT We had discussed this four years ago. I had posted a cite from the 1868 NEW YORK TIMES. Gregory Titelman's AMERICA'S POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS has 1876. The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "fish or cut bait _phr._ (20C)." (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Berkshire County Eagle - 2/16/1860 ...is u notice that fORth the must FISH OR CUT BAIT f he that the will hold out to the.....down ho dashed a throwing t i dutilly was CUT and badly She was taken tip bat her of.....M the in luning no f sea j f the main CUT off TVS it higher than tin which thus the.....l with ten the Con i It the ainley A CUT will be on paper Condition j never liven.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Thursday, February 16, 1860 913 k Pg. 3?, col. 3: His influence has not been for a moment impaired, and his return to power is a notice that henceforth the Pope must either fish or cut bait. Janesville Daily Gazette - 7/20/1864 ...are subject to draft must cither FISH OR CUT BAIT. The recent rebel raid up to the.....In' price, In ORder to closo tbiua CUT. If during lilo time wo rnolreil M remain.....nothing to prevent companies, cORpORations, OR cities from procuring men to fill their.....quotas from tito white OR blauk inhabitants of those Htatos, and no.. Janesville, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 20, 1864 924 k Appleton Crescent - 2/18/1865 ...from the draft, the shirks left ,o FISH OR CUT BAIT." The last oppORtunity to ssvo bo.....including those who have subORibud OR paid, OR intend ;o do go, to bo present.....who Ivive no homos, and, disabled wo'.nul.i OR sickness, are unable to supp VAenisul vca.. Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, February 18, 1865 743 k (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Title: Letters of Major Jack Downing of the Downingville Militia (1864) Author: Anonymous Print Source: Letters of Major Jack Downing of the Downingville Militia New York : Bromley, 1864. Pg. 138: "Wal," ses Linkin, "that all may be very true, but you see, Major, I've got these contrybands on my hands, an I've got to fish or cut bait." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 07:38:12 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:38:12 EST Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868) Message-ID: DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76 Google Groups hits The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is sorely lacking a happy dead pig. Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Reno Evening Gazette - 12/22/1960 ...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe, but when he gets.....skiers were gettINg a double shot of sunshINe from THE sky and reflected from THE.....THE 'left wINg' IN THE British Labor party. THE NATO foreign mINisters met IN Paris THE.....moan THEre won 'THE plenty of polar feaTHEr IN THE months ahead. TakINg IN a Lot of.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, December 22, 1960 606 k Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 12/27/1960 ...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe. but_ he gets through.....year IN Western Europe, Western .Europeans, IN 1958, spent only 86 million IN THE United.....fINds himself IN THE same position. When THE appoINtment ,was announced, he told THE.....than three million dollars. IN addition, IN takINg THE job he also accepted a cut IN.. Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, December 27, 1960 923 k Helena Independent - 4/16/1934 ...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from THE glare of THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr.. Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934 520 k Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950 ...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE Union club IN THE junior division of THE county style.. Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950 938 k Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957 ...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a staff of n INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight.. Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957 659 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966 ...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller, whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked around THE country IN contract shops and railroad.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966 619 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950 ...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE coronation of THE queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as THE 4-H club parade. THE 4-H club banquet.. Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950 730 k Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 ...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN THE region IN THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg.. Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 741 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950 ...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr THE back of THE head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950 507 k Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942 ...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look, we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need seasonal workers IN July, IN August and 000 IN October.. Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942 698 k Morning News Review - 3/30/1924 ...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool of THE late aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE.. Florence, South Carolina Sunday, March 30, 1924 578 k Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 ...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn IN THE grammar room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election.. Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 763 k Helena Independent - 4/16/1934 ...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from THE glare of THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr.. Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934 520 k Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950 ...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE Union club IN THE junior division of THE county style.. Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950 938 k Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957 ...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a staff of n INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight.. Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957 659 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966 ...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller, whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked around THE country IN contract shops and railroad.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966 619 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950 ...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE coronation of THE queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as THE 4-H club parade. THE 4-H club banquet.. Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950 730 k Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 ...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN THE region IN THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg.. Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 741 k Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950 ...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr THE back of THE head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE.. Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950 507 k Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942 ...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look, we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need seasonal workers IN July, IN August and 000 IN October.. Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942 698 k Morning News Review - 3/30/1924 ...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool of THE late aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE.. Florence, South Carolina Sunday, March 30, 1924 578 k Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 ...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn IN THE grammar room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election.. Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 763 k Petersburg Index - 7/10/1868 ...pleased before, uri; now as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Our foHulli passed off.....and ESTABLISHMENT oifeft unrivalled for THE execution IN THE most tasteful style THE.....THE Supreme Court of THE United States THE us lo THE constiLutionalily of THE.....I a Jani of and THE only saw THE traIN IN motion; but learn '.hut la THE box cars U.. Petersburg, Virginia Friday, July 10, 1868 789 k Pg. 1, col. 3: Even the old complainers, that were never known to be pleased before, are now as happy as a dead pig in the sunshine. Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878 ...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of Chattahoochee told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of.. Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878 952 k Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878 ...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of Chattahoochee told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of.. Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878 952 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 08:35:24 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:35:24 EST Subject: Two shakes of a lamb''s tail (1855); Older than the hills and twice as dusty Message-ID: TWO SHAKES OF A LAMB'S TAIL TWO SHAKES OF A "LAMB'S TAIL"--2,070 Google hits, 464 Google Groups hits The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "mid-19C+." This phrase means "immediately, at once." Also, "three shakes." Also, "sheep's tail" or "dog's tail" or "donkey's tail." OED's first "tail shake" is the 1858 PINEY WOODS TAVERN citation below. This is quite a colorful American expression. There's nothing very good on Newspaperarchive. I'll check the American Periodical Series later. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Reno Evening Gazette - 2/26/1880 ...a story of a Maine man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about the newspapers.....to Congress in 1823. It ie set forth in TWO passages of' that document; which read as.....ignorance as to whether the stranger has a TAIL or not. Donate do not all hare TAILs.....are in Herat; The Russians are in Merv. TWO thousand police in plain clothes, most of.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 26, 1880 578 k Weekly Reno Gazette - 3/4/1880 ...a story of a Maine maa who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about the newspapers.....to Congress in 1823. It is set forth in TWO passages of that document, which road as.....ignorance as to whether the stranger has a TAIL or not. Comets do not all have TAILs.....spot him. I am glad you have already twenty-TWO soldiers. Put Springfield rifles into.. Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 04, 1880 505 k Daily Nevada State Journal - 4/4/1880 ...footing than for a long A man who core TWO SHAKES of a TAIL the will ride fourteen miles.....of a weekly that spoke of him as prominent TWO sons of the Prince of Wales are expected.....men in the companies being hit for while TWO other noblemen who have just died had.....PHYSICIAN AMD of Went WEBSTER A T TO t on TWO below UN TINWARE IRON ROOFING AND.. Reno, Nevada Sunday, April 04, 1880 347 k Saint Joseph Herald - 2/28/1880 ...teach me. A Maine man, who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about the newspapers.....gives us an account of a fight between TWO young men on the McAndrews farm. TWO.....with wavy belts harmoniously tinted, while TWO moons far apart on the right, and TWO.....fair; And stab ourselves with sorrow s TWO -edged And yet a little patience.. Saint Joseph, Michigan Saturday, February 28, 1880 1160 k Star Sentinel - 4/8/1880 ...suit. A MAIXE man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about the newspapers.....AM) .-K.VTiNJSL Office For Sale_or TIIK TWO-STOUY BRICK UWKIjLING. nn itultlinorc i.....for us. On ilo account be sparing of grave SHAKES of the head and plenty of medicine.....a sociable temperament; and as I had about TWO hundred and fifty pounds a year of my own.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, April 08, 1880 919 k Globe - 2/4/1880 ...Post. A Maine man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a dead lamb's TAIL about newspapers.. Atchison, Kansas Wednesday, February 04, 1880 309 k Delta Herald - 10/10/1884 ...skin off a full grown tomato in aboui TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL." Tomatoes were.....the most intense interest. The way these TWO States vote nest Tuesday must have a very.....Business has doubled j within ft year or TWO. Several new buildI ings have lately gone.....cannery of W. S. White ford, about TWO miles west of town, where we found the.. Delta, Pennsylvania Friday, October 10, 1884 848 k Fort Wayne Gazette - 10/26/1884 ...vamoose outer that air chair in less'n TWO SHAKES or a steer's TAIL, I'll break yer up.....her tasks will ?ave and igrow old ant see TWO or tkbae generations her mistresses fade.....reluctance to use the word one or TWO, if their own statements are to be.....days before the battle the braves shall eat TWO eagle heads, in order to acquire tho.. Fort Wayne, Indiana Sunday, October 26, 1884 945 k Helena Independent - 12/11/1880 ...BOUTS. A MAINE man, who didn't care THREE SHAKES ot a lamb's TAIL tor the newspapers.....MAIN STREET, HELENA, M. T. ONE, TWO AND THREE ACRE LOT3 IN GRAND AND MONTANA AVENUE.....Rcildence Lot. FOUIl LOTS ON HIGH STREET. THREE LOTS ON BENTON AVENUI. TWO LOTS ON.....Status. shall be permitted nny time within THREE months after such restoration, and.. Helena, Montana Saturday, December 11, 1880 663 k Marion Daily Star - 6/9/1881 ...Boston Post. A man, who didn't care THREE SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL for the newspapers.....oops of wide dark satin ribbon outside, or THREE curled tips, and a velvet lcing in the.....tree had lived 135'years In the first sixty-THREE years, while it had stood in the dense.....an inch in thickness whereas, in the first THREE years, they had averagec but 7-100 ths.. Marion, Ohio Thursday, June 09, 1881 697 k (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Bennett, Emerson, (1822-1905): The Phantom of the Forest (1868) 1 match in 1 of 511 pages CHAPTER XXX. ing again!" / "Ef you'll only go to sleep, like a decent Christian, it 'll be morning in about two shakes of a dorg's tail!" said Tom. / "I will do my best," sighed Henry, "for I know the fo Print Source: The wonderful adventures of Captain Priest Hammett, Samuel Adams, New York : H. Long, 1855. Pg. 103: "By the 'living jingo' I'll make 'em, and in two shakes of a marlinspike, too." Anderson, Florence: Zenaida (1858) 1 match in 1 of 374 pages CHAPTER XXV. nto the country a couple of miles. Take this note and give it to Mrs. Bernard, and be back again in three shakes of a sheep's tail. Do you hear?" / "Yes, I hears, Massa Bruce," replied Pluto; "bu Print Source: Piney Woods tavern, or, Sam Slick in Texas Hammett, Samuel Adams, Philadelphia : T.B. Peterson, 1858. Pg. 81: He looked mighty like the gin-cocktail the barkeeper mixed up fer him, and that war _down in the mouth_. in three shakes of a dog's tail, by the watch; then tuk another to keep that straight, and 't warn't long afore the groceries begin to separate. Dupuy, Eliza A. (1814-1881): The Mysterious Marriage (1858) 1 match in 1 of 110 pages CHAPTER XIX. JOSEPHINE'S STORY. y else that comes up you can let 'em pass." / "I'll come for to go to git to do it in less nor three shakes of a ribnosed sheeps tail." / "That's right, now for fun." / Bruin returned t Kinzie, John H., Mrs. (1806-1870): Mark Logan, the Bourgeois (1871) 1 match in 1 of 677 pages CHAPTER XLII. if not, you'll do as you are ordered—for you'll be reported to the colonel in less than three shakes of a goose's tail, if you don't stir your stumps." / "And I tell you," cried Micha Print Source: Fisher's River (North Carolina) Taliaferro, Hardin E., New York : Harper, 1859. Pg. 75: So I tuk off his clothin' in three shakes of a sheep's tail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- OLDER THAN THE HILLS AND TWICE AS DUSTY TWICE AS DUSTY--78 Google hits, 109 Google Groups hits Sometimes used with "hills" and sometimes with "mountains." I don't see a great cite here. Surely it's older than 1970. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) clearfield_progress_ - 8/5/1919 ...after feat. Andy wAS AS loose AS AShes and TWICE AS DUSTY and wAS used AS the king pin.....returns in "The She-Devil" Drive A Car "AS Good AS New." That's Ae way we'll make.....of many thrilling stunts. AS the "point" of 1 the pyramid Andy.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Tuesday, August 05, 1919 822 k Red Bluff Daily News - 10/15/1970 ...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious can't be very.....meetings to provide reserve officers AS skilled AS the regular deputies they will.....find time for Homecoming. This may come AS somewhat of a shock to some of you, but.. Red Bluff, California Thursday, October 15, 1970 650 k Delphos Daily Herald - 6/21/1894 ...with twenty times more wants, is in reality TWICE AS poor. TUB Idea that a diseASe.....Vom which he must emeree at the roof AS DUSTY AS a iciller. Tbe bar berry, in a.....where it is the .custom to have ice cream TWICE a week for dessert, the principal.....wAS enacted in some European countries AS early AS 1813. THE woman suffrage.. Delphos, Ohio Thursday, June 21, 1894 1021 k Decatur Review - 8/5/1920 ...TWICE ESTIMATE. The lASt job wAS more than TWICE AS much AS the original estimate. All.....increASed considerably. With the roads AS DUSTY AS they are now, a cloud forms when.....ASide in order to get out 100 of these cars AS soon AS possible. When finished, they will.....agrees to pay down and 8100 a year rental AS long AS the city shall keep the truck. In.. Decatur, Illinois Thursday, August 05, 1920 730 k Lethbridge Herald - 7/16/1951 ...got The road to Waterton. via Cardston, is TWICE AS good AS you've been led to believe.....to the townsite. Full of holes and AS DUSTY a desert during a hurricane, this road.....Alberta's June and July snows are getting TWICE AS mucn publicity in the EAStern press.....not w'e are growing in national population AS fASt AS the rapid development of our.. Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, July 16, 1951 779 k Ironwood Daily Globe - 10/15/1970 ...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious can't be very.....her: Keraftn wore her wedding sister AS matron of honor and: the quantities, AS do.....Milwaukee, a Photo-Guide is in One Size. AS son, John ThomAS, Oct. 8. Mrs. shown.. Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, October 15, 1970 845 k Frederick Post - 3/24/1969 ...it pointed where the way Would drop and TWICE AS narrow ciose About one, while ahead.....i hat ounce of treble gleeUntil a pair AS DUSTY And bare AS feet can be (Like two small.....wAS the oldest of the congregation, indeed, AS far AS I know) he wAS the oldest person in.....poseo On arms that HttU lacked to be AS thin AS what wAS posed, Into that evening.. Frederick, Maryland Monday, March 24, 1969 695 k clearfield_progress_ - 8/5/1919 ...after feat. Andy wAS AS loose AS AShes and TWICE AS DUSTY and wAS used AS the king pin.....returns in "The She-Devil" Drive A Car "AS Good AS New." That's Ae way we'll make.....of many thrilling stunts. AS the "point" of 1 the pyramid Andy.. Clearfield, Pennsylvania Tuesday, August 05, 1919 822 k Daily Report - 10/15/1970 ...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious can't be very.....imbalance. For them, it is merely natural. AS to the menopause, the female hormone.....is more dominant, depending on sex.) Thus AS the male hormone gains, comparatively.. Ontario, California Thursday, October 15, 1970 704 k New Oxford Item - 8/7/1919 ...weighs about 14 pounds. The human brain is TWICE AS large AS that of any animal. Tobacco.....worms to fall into and it should be kept AS DUSTY AS possible by dragging a log through.....jaw and an opportunity to drive my weapon TWICE more against the hairy face. The pain.....singing AS he worked, and before noon I had AS cheerful a ship's crew forward AS any man.. New Oxford, Pennsylvania Thursday, August 07, 1919 826 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 09:20:08 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:20:08 EST Subject: Big Dogs/Porch (1986); Same Dog's Tail (1954); Cow in Fly Time (1877) Message-ID: IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits Popularized by a bumper sticker. (GOOGLE GROUPS) INFO-MAC Digest V4 #79 ... Small Systems Support NASA - Ames Research Center "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" --- archived as [SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ... mod.mac - Jun 22, 1986 by INFO-MAC-REQUEST at SUMEX-AIM.ARPA.UUCP - View Thread (1 article) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Frederick Post - 10/17/1994 ...that if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, you'd best STAY ON THE PORCH, and I.....It's a road that just doesn't know how BIG it wants to be. Or else, it wants to be.....ClintON allowed Haiti's military rulers to STAY in power for a mONth, THEse two worthies.....s growth. Growth is THE number ONe issue ON THE minds of THE citizens of THE county.. Frederick, Maryland Monday, October 17, 1994 599 k Frederick Post - 3/17/1999 ...to that is if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, STAY ON THE PORCH. Let's do something.....weaken GOP sway over THE Senate. But THE BIG Banana figures to go to a Republican.....Bradley or Mr. Gore that THEy might as well STAY home, saving supporters' mONey and THEir.....worked to dismantle protectiONs against BIG BroTHEr government. Reno, Freeh and.. Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, March 17, 1999 641 k Frederick Post - 3/22/2001 ...As THEy say, if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, STAY ON THE PORCH. And that saying also.....can't pull THE hills and STAY up to speed, STAY in THE right lane. Free THE left lane of.....repeats to his trainees: "THE market can STAY irratiONal for lONger than you can STAY.....Morris stuck with his commitment to STAY in college for four years when he could.. Frederick, Maryland Thursday, March 22, 2001 663 k Chronicle Telegram - 5/8/1949 (CAUTION! BAD HIT! IT'S 1994!--ed.) ...THE BIG DOGS like your ol' Dad. OTHErwise, STAY ON THE PORCH. I'm all for bridging THE.....has to answer for THE mess. Last week was a BIG ONe all around for American even if you.....FRANK and JONI PREZELJ AvON Why kill stray DOGS ? I am writing ON behalf of THE article.....cONcerning THE shooting of two stray DOGS. I agree fully with Tom Parflow and THE.. Elyria, Ohio Sunday, May 08, 1949 522 k News - 10/17/1994 ...that if you cant run with THE BIG DOGS, you'd best STAY ON THE PORCH, and I.....It's a road that just doesn't know how BIG it wants to be. Or else, it wants to be.....ClintON allowed Haiti's military rulers to STAY in power for a mONth, THEse two worthies.....is THE number ONe issue ON THE minds of ;THE citizens of THE county. THE expressed by.. Frederick, Maryland Monday, October 17, 1994 585 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SUN DON'T SHINE ON THE SAME DOG'S TAIL ALL THE TIME (you'll get what you deserve) SAME DOG'S TAIL--18 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit This sounds like it should be older than 1954. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Newport Daily News - 5/10/1954 ...the sun doesn't always shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fitted perfectly, his own.....jump and the 15 and 16-year old boys the SAME events plus 440-yard run and 8pound.....Shanter All-American championship in the SAME year which constituted his only major.. Newport, Rhode Island Monday, May 10, 1954 816 k Indianapolis Star - 1/29/1911 ...on his TAIL and pull the New York the dog hollers just the SAME, doesn't he? But.....case do you know what that force Is. the SAME dog and put him In Massachusetts. Say.....the operation of your hand to the DOG'S TAIL. He yowls with pain, you have hurt him.....you had a little dog here. You give his TAIL a sudden jerk with your hand and that.. Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, January 29, 1911 1038 k Mountain Democrat - 11/14/1986 ...why the sun never shines twice on the SAME DOG'S TAIL. Really important things that I.....well, take two bolts of lightning in the SAME place and call me in the morning." Yeah.. Placerville, California Friday, November 14, 1986 535 k Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 5/11/1954 ...when Cass Michaels committed a on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fitthrowing error with two.....when his car rolled end over end in the SAME accident in which Robey was hurt. Rolls.....rolled over on the north turn about the SAME time as the Vickers accident, and the.. Council Bluffs, Iowa Tuesday, May 11, 1954 691 k Herald Press - 5/10/1954 ...Dodgers swept the ways shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL, three-game series from fitted.....a: end of B'h. Drlrnil 3-n. 2-0: srconri SAME cnlird Ht end of riarknr.w' ington fit.. Saint Joseph, Michigan Monday, May 10, 1954 682 k Times - 10/21/1825 ...in July, could have; recognized him for the SAME dog In December. The iffed of Miss.....could not belong to him for that Ihe DOG'S TAIL had never been hurt, and that the spots.....of the bone in any part of this DOG'S TAIL, which there must have been, if It had.....mMn. Belzoni (which she so much deserves) SAME certain income, to arise either by.. London, Middlesex Friday, October 21, 1825 1055 k Waukesha Daily Freeman - 5/10/1954 ...the sun doesn't always shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fit ted perfectly his own.. Waukesha, Wisconsin Monday, May 10, 1954 1061 k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BUSY AS A STUMP-TAILED COW IN FLY TIME (very busy) COW IN FLY TIME--11 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits Not used much now, but it goes back. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Chronicle Telegram - 1/15/1932 ...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. (Copyright, Syndicate, INc.) 1932.....to go back hmnc where he belongs, is to FLY down to Toronto for more grub and chINks.....OF A THING LIKE THAT HAPPENING JUST AT THE TIME WHEN YOU TWO WEREWELL, SUCH GOOD.....pianist at the CasINo, spends spare TIME studyINg pharmacy. His ambition is to be.. Elyria, Ohio Friday, January 15, 1932 976 k New Smyrna Daily News - 8/29/1913 ...who never planted a seed or milked a COW IN FLY TIME to write leaders about the best way.....we fINd "i will rut it IN the ara all the TIME and shows th? importance of the paper.....very severe cases IN an INcredibly chert TIME. Dike's Pile Salve goes right to the.....dis couraged, who cannot get along short TIME without mother's pies she does not deal.. New Smyrna Beach, Florida Friday, August 29, 1913 407 k Bucks County Gazette - 7/31/1890 ...and as restless as a ohorl-lailed COW IN FLY TIME. Tlir Ducks Couniy Medical Sodut.....consumption" of the lungs) and if taken IN TIME, and given a fair trial, it will cure or.....M. W. H. H. FINK, P.M. PENNSYLVANIA R. B. TIME Errxcr JUNK '21, Leave llrislo] for.....Kyrle lo Dorlestown yesterday. Kyrle some TIME ago committed an araault and battery.. Bristol, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 31, 1890 841 k Coshocton Tribune - 1/15/1932 ...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. A civilizINg INfluence has touched.....ho said has been said before, many a TIME. Just the same, it was good to hear him.....want the duties raised. That was the first TIME bsuIN ess leaders, as a class, questioned.....goods, unless they are at the same TIME unneeded goods, are not a sign that.. Coshocton, Ohio Friday, January 15, 1932 826 k Hornellsville Tribune - 1/19/1877 ...around like a bob tailed gentleman COW, IN FLY TIME. Bloody shirt Morton, who returned.....for the honor conferred, but at the same TIME permit me to say tlmt 1 urn unwillINg to.....du INg the whole day. VotINg ceaied sonv TIME anterior to the eludINg of tho boxes, an.....absolutely. TOWN MEETINGS. It will soon bo TIME for tho annual town meetINgs throughout.. Hornellsville, New York Friday, January 19, 1877 1227 k Maryville Daily Forum - 1/19/1946 ...FLY IN when she meant a short-tailed COW IN FLY-TIME. Miss Mary Frances Lasell, teacher.....a lovely seen coat. Grass was startINg to COW, as were all the little flowers. you.....us all IN and make the second semester a TIME of real achievement IN our school work.....occurs once IN here is only particular TIME warped ch.xi'iicicrs of this tyn-. happy.. Maryville, Missouri Saturday, January 19, 1946 778 k Atlanta Constitution - 12/20/1915 ...a rural illustration, a shorttailed COW IN FLY TIME, or, a more classic illustration, as.....INches IN and weighs ISO pounds. At the TIME of his disappearance he wore a blue.....residential districts, and, at the same TIME, greatly relieve congestion of traffic.....a total eclipse of the sun and at that TIME made the first measurement of the.. Atlanta, Georgia Monday, December 20, 1915 501 k Globe - 3/19/1878 ...store, is us busy as a bob-tail COW IN FLY TIME. Harwi has a stock better under such.....i Katie Putnam on the 20th. The Branch on TIME to-day. C. C. Burnes is at home agaIN.....Tommy Malone, while workINg with orderly TIME. AccordINg to a gentleman of nice.....poINt; T of enterpiise. We wish everv man IN IN the language of everv man we have 0.. Atchison, Kansas Tuesday, March 19, 1878 314 k Idaho Daily Statesman - 9/21/1900 ...president than a stiimp tailed COW IN FLY TIME lias oftakINg it easy. I voted for.....not vote for Mr. Bryan (agaIN." By this TIME Mr. Croker was seated, IN .a vls-a-vls.....another 2-yenr-old. who race for the first TIME durINg the comINg fair, and Joe K, a 2.....gentleman, -waJitlng paJtientlyjJfor some TIME, but my vis-a-viS gave ho dence of.. Boise, Idaho Friday, September 21, 1900 649 k Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 2/2/1934 ...milkINg, dodge the sole weapon of a COW IN FLY TIME, has n traININg that stands IN good.....their education. ConsiderINg how much TIME we all waste IN various forms of.....glycINe, an amINo-acid, and at the same TIME givINg ephedr INe and a high proteIN diet.....your cloth w; it's already past milkINg TIME." Gypsy listened, agreed, nodded. She.. Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Friday, February 02, 1934 881 k Chronicle Telegram - 10/29/1973 ...NOT EVACTLV AS 5U5Y AS A SHORTTAILED COW IN FLY TIME I'LL WAIT. YOURSELF BUT DO .'T OUT.....Ohio, until 12: 00 noon. Eastern Standard TIME. November 16. 1973. At that TIME, bids.....and Dik Browne AND REMEMBER THE TO OUR HARD TIME WE HAD CUBM ASTER TEACHING HIM TO AND-A.....AMD "TINY TOM" TIMES OM A COOL I FOXE -WHAT TIME DiFFSRc.M'i UELCOMS iEUERALLY AT THE V.. Elyria, Ohio Monday, October 29, 1973 637 k Perry Chief - 4/1/1887 ...such poet could ever have milked a COW IN FLY TIME. (Laughter.) I cannot imagINe a.....Laughter.) What so meek and us a niooley COW? City people are foolish to be frightened.....me of a Commissioner ol Agriculture IN old TIME-" who pur chased six hyd-aulic rams lor.....at COWs. I was never hurt by a COW but once. He shook hia head at mo from.. Perry, Iowa Friday, April 01, 1887 663 k Reno Evening Gazette - 1/15/1932 ...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. Mr. and Mrs. James Pollard who A.....Evelyn Tallman; Messrs. Noah banquets the TIME's Mr. Wiley attends IN a year. The.....met Tuesday evenINg when a very INterestINg TIME was enjoyed followINg The Philathea.....as the Spanish, described them at the, -TIME, men of The French; called them brigands.. Reno, Nevada Friday, January 15, 1932 911 k From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 09:52:52 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:52:52 EST Subject: Socks on a Rooster (1959) Message-ID: SOCKS ON A ROOSTER--200 Google hits, 156 Google Groups hits Not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG. HDAS? (GOOGLE) http://www.southernsass.com/HillbillyDictionary.html "Sexy as socks on a rooster." (not sexy at all) (GOOGLE GROUPS) Re: bray shino glaze recipe ... whether the body is reduced, what its composition is.....there are enough factors involved to keep you as busy as you'd be trying to put socks on a rooster. ... bit.listserv.clayart - Jan 2, 1996 by TROY at JUNCOL.JUNIATA.EDU - View Thread (4 articles) Re: Margarita Question ... Throw them in a blender to just cover crushed ice and you'll have one "socks on a rooster" margaritta your freinds will remember you for. ... rec.food.drink - May 7, 1994 by Wayne Calvagno - View Thread (9 articles Flash! 16 not power of 2! ... used octal on their 16-bit processors. This is like putting socks on a rooster. Octal is incredibly inconvenient when trying to ... comp.arch - Aug 4, 1989 by David Wright @stellar - View Thread (3 articles) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Oswego Palladium Times - 8/11/1959 ...of New OrleAns, would AppeAr ON him like "SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." (AP Wirephoto.....HIGHLIGHTS Council AgAin Defers ActiON ON City Employes InsurAnce, PAne 8. OSTC To.....CONfer Degrees ON Aug. 22, PAge 4. T CleAr tONight. FAir And.. Oswego, New York Tuesday, August 11, 1959 831 k Pg. 1, col. 1 AP photo caption: _ALL-OUT CAMPAIGNING_--Louisiana Gov. Earl Long tugs at suspender-hung trousers as he blasts opponents in his campaign for re-election during Des Allemands, La. stop on his stump trip. Long observed that a suit of clothes of opponent deLesseps Morrison, the well-dressed mayor of New Orleans, would appear on him like "socks on a rooster." Frederick Post - 9/10/1985 ...A suit ON Uncle EArl would look like SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." cousin And then CONgressmAn.....Albeit for ONly A frActiON of A secONd. But ON the wAy bAck, I spilled coffee ON A mAn in.....up A shingle: "CAnAdA open for business." ON the militAry side, MulrONey tost no time.. Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 10, 1985 580 k News - 11/15/1980 ...thAt with sweet DAisy is 'bout like to put SOCKS ON A ROOSTER. A pregnAnt epigrAm, thAt.....did in school. verbAl diAlogue thAt goes ON in mAny of those commONly wAtched progrAms.....groups Also vowed to push for higher tAxes ON oil compAnies in the upcoming sessiON of.. Frederick, Maryland Saturday, November 15, 1980 375 k Salisbury Times - 8/11/1959 ...of New OrleAns, would AppeAr ON him like "SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." (AP Wirephoto) He.....re-electiON during Des AllemAnds, LA., stop ON his stump trip. LONg observed thAt A suit.....And swift defeAt, hAd his sights set ON A downtown New OrleAns rAlly tONight home.. Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, August 11, 1959 667 k Gettysburg Times - 11/13/1980 ...sweet DAisy is 'bout like tryin" to put SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." A pregnAnt epigrAm, thAt.....pArticipAted in the fAmed Doolitlie RAid ON Tokyo And went ON to become Gen. DouglAs.....iA school. -The verbAl diAlogue thAt goes ON in mA ny of those commONly wAtched rAms is.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, November 13, 1980 472 k From orinkh at CARR.ORG Sat Mar 13 12:03:48 2004 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:03:48 -0500 Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868) Message-ID: >DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits >DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76 Google Groups hits > > The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a >boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is sorely lacking a >happy dead pig. > Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad. This one reminds me of a saying of my late grandfather (b. KY 1895, d. KY 1981): "I haven't been so happy since the pigs ate my little brother." Orin Hargraves From RSydow at COX.NET Sat Mar 13 12:31:33 2004 From: RSydow at COX.NET (Bob & Judy Sydow) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:31:33 -0500 Subject: sign off Message-ID: sign off ads-l From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 15:14:09 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:14:09 EST Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/12/04 6:27:31 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced. > Rhymes with "ma" and "pa" and "la-la-la-la-la" (not "duh")--at least, that is how I've always heard it. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 15:18:30 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:18:30 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Big=20Dogs/Porch=20(1986)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/13/04 4:20:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH > > BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits > >    Popularized by a bumper sticker. > I think it is a trademarked phrase? From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 15:40:59 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:40:59 EST Subject: Charles Carson's surgery Message-ID: Many of you have had the pleasure of working with Charles Carson, the managing editor of American Dialect Society Publications, for the past many years. I'm writing to report that Charles will be out of commission for at least a week or so as the result of complications of gall-bladder surgery. Those of you who have been following John Ashcroft's surgery in the newspapers know that this is usually a relatively simple procedure, one in which someone in his 30s would normally go home from the hospital the next day. Charles's surgery did not go as planned, and while he seems to be well on his way to recovery, he is still in the hospital and will (assuming that all goes well and the danger of infection passes) be recovering at home next week. I doubt that he will be reading any e-mail until next week, but well-wishes may send him messages that he will I'm sure be heartened to see when he opens his Duke message box at: . Cards will reach him at his home address: 710 East Hammond Street Durham, NC 27704. I don't know if his mother has come up to North Carolina from Florida for the surgery (I'm in Florida and haven't been able to visit him in the hospital), but he is receiving excellent support from his multitude of North Carolina friends, and especially his loving and devoted partner Zac, who is keeping those of us who are on Charles's e-mail list of just how Charlie is doing. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 13 19:21:23 2004 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:21:23 -0800 Subject: doesn't/don't In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078847100@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2004, at 7:45 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote, about 3 sg. "don't": > ...DARE has it as 'esp among speakers with little formal educ'--but > apparently > not any particular region. as i recall, it crops up in many parts of the english-speaking world. in some places and at some times it's been associated with the *upper* class. in late-19th and early-20th century england, for instance. it was a conspicuous feature of lord peter wimsey's very U variety. > To my knowledge, such people don't say 'It do', but person agreement is > similarly lost in some dialects'/registers' negation of 'be'--i.e., > _ain't_. there are varities with completely leveling in favor of do/don't. but the most common system has levelling only in the negative -- pretty much a textbook example of leveling only in the more marked category. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Mar 13 20:13:14 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:13:14 -0600 Subject: "the cutting edge"--Question Message-ID: One of my students has asked me about the expression "the cutting edge" (e.g., of research in a field). Does this very generally refer to any sharp object as it cuts its way through something? Or does it refer to a specific sharp object in a specific context (e.g. a drill cutting through rock in the construction of a tunnel)? Any thoughts? Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Mar 13 20:15:28 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:15:28 -0600 Subject: "chopped liver" revisited Message-ID: A few weeks ago I mentioned the great injustice in the expression (with variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" and wondered how this delicious food (if prepared properly) could acquire such negative connotations. I now see a plausible answer in a 2002 ads-l message and present it below my signoff. Gerald Cohen >Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:43 -0700 >From: Kim & Rima McKinzey >Subject: Fwd: mini Yiddish lesson >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Just got this from a friend - and appropriate in that we just had a >thread re chopped liver. Rima > >> >>While we're on the subject of Yiddish, another expression whose origin >>people wonder about is, "What am I, chopped liver?" >> >>Consult an excellent website about all things Jewish, Ask the Rabbi >>(www.ohr.org.il/web/index/askfull.htm). >> >>According to this site, the phrase was coined in America. Chopped liver is >>a side dish and never a main course, so the phrase is used to express hurt >>and amazement when someone feels overlooked, i.e., treated as a "side >>dish." From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Mar 13 21:35:26 2004 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:35:26 -0500 Subject: "whole nine yards" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did the US need all nine [Montagnard groups in I Corps area] to be effective? Do we need to answer that hypothetical? If one suggests "all nine" must have been used and must be recorded and must be available before "whole nine," in parallel to "the whole shebang," then: Does anyone recall "the all shebang"? "All shebang" came before "whole shebang"? Exactly which machine gun belts were 27 feet? best, Stephen Goranson From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 21:42:23 2004 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:42:23 -0500 Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd. I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program. If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible. MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month. Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1. Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list. Thanks so much! Michael From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 13 23:29:00 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:29:00 -0500 Subject: "chopped liver" revisited Message-ID: Jerry, I still see that as one of two plausible answers. It could still be the idea that chopped liver was cheaper than pastrami or corned beef or lox in the deli. This was Doug Wilson's idea, and I tend to accept that theory. I don't know if it was Doug who pointed out that the phrase quite often was used to indicate that a sum of money wasn't "chopped liver." That would negate the "side dish" issue. Sam Clements Considering that ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:15 PM Subject: "chopped liver" revisited > A few weeks ago I mentioned the great injustice in the expression > (with variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" and wondered how this > delicious food (if prepared properly) could acquire such negative > connotations. > > I now see a plausible answer in a 2002 ads-l message and present > it below my signoff. > > Gerald Cohen > > > >Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:43 -0700 > >From: Kim & Rima McKinzey > >Subject: Fwd: mini Yiddish lesson > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >Just got this from a friend - and appropriate in that we just had a > >thread re chopped liver. Rima > > > >> > >>While we're on the subject of Yiddish, another expression whose origin > >>people wonder about is, "What am I, chopped liver?" > >> > >>Consult an excellent website about all things Jewish, Ask the Rabbi > >>(www.ohr.org.il/web/index/askfull.htm). > >> > >>According to this site, the phrase was coined in America. Chopped liver is > >>a side dish and never a main course, so the phrase is used to express hurt > >>and amazement when someone feels overlooked, i.e., treated as a "side > >>dish." > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 01:10:14 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:10:14 EST Subject: Big Dogs/Porch (1986) (trademarks) Message-ID: In a message dated 3/13/2004 10:19:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > > In a message dated 3/13/04 4:20:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > > > IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH > > > > BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits > > > > Popularized by a bumper sticker. > > > > I think it is a trademarked phrase? > I forgot the trademarks! There are three with this exact phrase and four others with something similar (sans "porch"). However, I'd found one Google Groups cite in 1986, and the earliest here is 1989: (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, sweatshirts, nightshirts, and children's T-shirts. FIRST USE: 19890100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19890100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74713177 Filing Date August 9, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition January 7, 1997 Registration Number 2048686 Registration Date April 1, 1997 Owner (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH Goods and Services IC 021. US 002 013 023 029 030 033 040 050. G & S: plastic bottles, sold empty for fluids. FIRST USE: 19920800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920800 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74713193 Filing Date August 9, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition January 7, 1997 Registration Number 2048687 Registration Date April 1, 1997 Owner (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Anthony J. Wall Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: sticky note pads. FIRST USE: 19950400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950400 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74713195 Filing Date August 9, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition January 7, 1997 Registration Number 2048688 Registration Date April 1, 1997 Owner (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Anthony J. Wall Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, jackets, woven shirts, sweatshirts, caps, infant rompers, girl's dresses and children's sweatshirts. FIRST USE: 19930700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930700 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74625790 Filing Date January 26, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 14, 1995 Change In Registration CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration Number 1986729 Registration Date July 16, 1996 Owner (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record KURT KOENIG Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS Goods and Services IC 031. US 001 046. G & S: pet food. FIRST USE: 19980900. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19980900 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74625783 Filing Date January 26, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition September 26, 1995 Registration Number 2236932 Registration Date April 6, 1999 Owner (REGISTRANT) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ANTHONY J. WALL Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS Goods and Services IC 021. US 002 013 023 029 030 033 040 050. G & S: plastic sports bottles. FIRST USE: 19940400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19940400 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74634306 Filing Date February 10, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition October 17, 1995 Change In Registration CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration Number 1980729 Registration Date June 18, 1996 Owner (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record KURT KOENIG Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Word Mark RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS Goods and Services IC 018. US 001 002 003 022 041. G & S: pet collars and pet leashes. FIRST USE: 19950200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950200 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74634303 Filing Date February 10, 1995 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 19, 1995 Change In Registration CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration Number 1980728 Registration Date June 18, 1996 Owner (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record KURT KOENIG Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From MartinezE at COFC.EDU Sun Mar 14 02:08:29 2004 From: MartinezE at COFC.EDU (Martinez-Gibson, Elizabeth A.) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:08:29 -0500 Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004 Message-ID: Michael, I am working on a project that deals with the acquisiton of ser and estar. The test I gave the students tests to see if students understand certain concepts in English.Is this something you might be interested in for the ADS session? If so, I can get you an abstract by Wednesday the latest. Elizabeth Martinez-Gibson College of Charleston Dept. of Hispanic Studies-JC Long 310 9 Libery St. Charleston, SC 29424 martineze at cofc.edu -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Michael Adams Sent: Sat 3/13/2004 4:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004 Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd. I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program. If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible. MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month. Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1. Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list. Thanks so much! Michael From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 14 05:33:49 2004 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:33:49 -0500 Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868) In-Reply-To: <1cc.1bd76e54.2d841464@aol.com> Message-ID: Looks as though it might be a "parole blend" as Jerry would call it; the main concept seems to be "happy as a pig in the sunshine" with variants, and then there's "tranquil as a dead pig in the sunshine", which makes sense, possibly resulting in the 1868 hit (I'm assuming it was in fact 1868) as a blend of the two; cf. "happy as a clam at high tide" > "happy as a clam", which makes as little sense the happy dead pig. Well, maybe a bit more sense than that, but still... larry horn At 2:38 AM -0500 3/13/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits >DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76 Google Groups hits > > The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a >boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is >sorely lacking a >happy dead pig. > Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad. > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Reno Evening Gazette - 12/22/1960 >...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe, but when >he gets.....skiers were gettINg a double shot of sunshINe from THE sky and >reflected from THE.....THE 'left wINg' IN THE British Labor party. THE NATO >foreign mINisters met IN Paris THE.....moan THEre won 'THE plenty of >polar feaTHEr >IN THE months ahead. TakINg IN a Lot of.. >Reno, Nevada Thursday, December 22, 1960 606 k > >Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 12/27/1960 >...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe. but_ he >gets through.....year IN Western Europe, Western .Europeans, IN 1958, spent >only 86 million IN THE United.....fINds himself IN THE same position. When THE >appoINtment ,was announced, he told THE.....than three million dollars. IN >addition, IN takINg THE job he also accepted a cut IN.. >Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, December 27, 1960 923 k > >Helena Independent - 4/16/1934 >...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk >about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical >society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from >THE glare of >THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN >Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr.. >Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934 520 k > >Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950 >...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented >sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe >IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE >selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE >Union club IN THE >junior division of THE county style.. >Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950 938 k > >Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957 >...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm >my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon >Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big >side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a >staff of n >INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight.. >Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957 659 k > >Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966 >...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller, >whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm >boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his >boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked >around THE >country IN contract shops and railroad.. >Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966 619 k > >Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950 >...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented >sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE >exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE >coronation of THE >queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as >THE 4-H club >parade. THE 4-H club banquet.. >Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950 730 k > >Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 >...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been >worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum >cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN >THE region IN >THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He >THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg.. >Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 741 k > >Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950 >...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been >worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE >parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr >THE back of THE >head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He >hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE.. >Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950 507 k > >Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942 >...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look, >we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you >avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE >program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need >seasonal workers >IN July, IN August and 000 IN October.. >Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942 698 k > >Morning News Review - 3/30/1924 >...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three >hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool >of THE late >aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE >iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr >early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE.. >Florence, South Carolina Sunday, March 30, 1924 578 k > >Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 >...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been >worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum >cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn >IN THE grammar >room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been >IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election.. >Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 763 k > >Helena Independent - 4/16/1934 >...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk >about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical >society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from >THE glare of >THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN >Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr.. >Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934 520 k > >Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950 >...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented >sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe >IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE >selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE >Union club IN THE >junior division of THE county style.. >Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950 938 k > >Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957 >...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm >my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon >Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big >side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a >staff of n >INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight.. >Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957 659 k > >Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966 >...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller, >whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm >boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his >boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked >around THE >country IN contract shops and railroad.. >Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966 619 k > >Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950 >...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented >sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE >exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE >coronation of THE >queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as >THE 4-H club >parade. THE 4-H club banquet.. >Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950 730 k > >Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 >...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been >worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum >cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN >THE region IN >THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He >THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg.. >Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 741 k > >Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950 >...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been >worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE >parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr >THE back of THE >head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He >hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE.. >Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950 507 k > >Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942 >...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look, >we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you >avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE >program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need >seasonal workers >IN July, IN August and 000 IN October.. >Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942 698 k > >Morning News Review - 3/30/1924 >...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three >hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool >of THE late >aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE >iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr >early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE.. >Florence, South Carolina Sunday, March 30, 1924 578 k > >Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950 >...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been >worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum >cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn >IN THE grammar >room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been >IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election.. >Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950 763 k > >Petersburg Index - 7/10/1868 >...pleased before, uri; now as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Our >foHulli passed off.....and ESTABLISHMENT oifeft unrivalled for THE >execution IN THE >most tasteful style THE.....THE Supreme Court of THE United States THE us lo >THE constiLutionalily of THE.....I a Jani of and THE only saw THE traIN IN >motion; but learn '.hut la THE box cars U.. >Petersburg, Virginia Friday, July 10, 1868 789 k >Pg. 1, col. 3: > Even the old complainers, that were never known to be pleased before, are >now as happy as a dead pig in the sunshine. > >Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878 >...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small >hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a >lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN >broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of >Chattahoochee >told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of.. >Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878 952 k > >Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878 >...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small >hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a >lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN >broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of >Chattahoochee >told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of.. >Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878 952 k From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Mar 14 08:46:46 2004 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:46:46 -0500 Subject: "whole nine yards" Message-ID: Funny you should ask that. I had just been wondering whether there were only 9 montagnard tribes in I Corps. A listing of montagnard and other ethnic minorities (http://www.wompom.ca/vietnam/vnethnic24.htm) assigns only 7 tribes to the provinces that made up I CTZ. However, I'm not sure how complete the list is; for instance, it has no entries for the Rhade and Jarai, major groups of II CTZ. I will send you this information separately. The short answer to whether the US needed all tribes is that all nine tribes do not seem to have been involved in the CIDG (Civilian Irregular Defense Group) program run by the US Special Forces. In Oct 1964, there were 6 A camps in I CTZ. Five of them had Vietnamese camp strike forces; one of these also had Bru strikers and a second also had Ta-Oi strikers. One camp's CSF was entirely Hre--that was Gia Vuc, which was on the border between I CTZ and II CTZ. (See Table 2, Vietnam Studies: U.S. Army Special Forces, 1961-1971 Vietnam Studies: U.S. Army Special Forces, 1961-1971, CMH Publication 90-23. Department of the Army. Washington, D.C. 1989 (First Printed, 1973) (http://tinyurl.com/yr9x5)). In addition, the Mobile Strike (Mike) Force in Danang had Rhade and Koho strikers, but they were recruited from II CTZ . Seán Fitzpatrick Baghdad Lutetiaque delendi sunt http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Goranson Sent: Saturday, 13 March, 2004 16:35 Subject: Re: "whole nine yards" Did the US need all nine [Montagnard groups in I Corps area] to be effective? Do we need to answer that hypothetical? If one suggests "all nine" must have been used and must be recorded and must be available before "whole nine," in parallel to "the whole shebang," then: Does anyone recall "the all shebang"? "All shebang" came before "whole shebang"? Exactly which machine gun belts were 27 feet? best, Stephen Goranson From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 20:03:43 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:03:43 EST Subject: doesn't/don't: first-hand experience Message-ID: My first really memorable introduction to practical linguistics came when I was 18 years old and went off to the University of Iowa as a freshman. I had been an honors student in high school English in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I participated in high-school speech contests (mostly in extemporaneous speaking). No one ever called me on any aspect of my grammar. I was not conscious that "He don't" (and, in general, the use of "don't" with singual subjects) was a part of my speech until college friends--graduate students--pointed it out to me. I have no idea whether or not I had unconsciously shifted to "He doesn't" in speech contests, but I doubt it. Perhaps the construction never came up in those formal situations. It does seem impossible that I could have gone through high-school and never written "he don't" unless I unconsciously style-shifted to "doesn't" in writing. I would NEVER have written or said "He do" or "It do" or "John do," however. A similar experience fifteen years later: a friend pointed out to me that, in speech, I regularly did not use a linking /n/ between the indefinite article "a" and a word beginning with a vowel. I tended to use a glottal stop instead: "a?apple"rather than "an apple," etc. She found this very amusing, especially because I was by that time a tenured member of the Duke English Department, specialing in English linguistics. Ever since then, my tongue invariably flaps against my alveolar ridge betweeen the word "a" and a word beginning with a vowel. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 21:16:09 2004 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:16:09 EST Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport Message-ID: I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield Airport. This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta". A quickie Google search turned up this proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta Hartsfield, but with varying airlines. I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning from Florida from the Skylab launch. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The phrase "zigged when I should have zagged" sounds like it comes from World War II (or even World War I) when ships sailed on zig-zag courses to avoid submarines. - Jim Landau From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Mar 14 22:17:08 2004 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:17:08 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport In-Reply-To: <9b.453495ed.2d862599@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau wrote: >I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield Airport. > >This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern >Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta". A quickie Google >search turned up this >proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta >Hartsfield, but with varying airlines. > >I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning >from Florida from the Skylab launch. > By the time I moved to Gainesville in 1980, no airline was specified (though Eastern and Air Florida were the only airlines serving Gainesville); it was "if you die in the southeastern US, it doesn't matter whether you're going to Heaven or Hell; you'll change in Atlanta". I'm not sure if it's at all relevant, but Hartsfield opened in 1980 (sometime between my job interview in April and the first conference I attended while at UF, probably the LSA in December). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 22:25:09 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:25:09 EST Subject: E.V.O.O. or EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) (1916) Message-ID: EVOO--3,400 Google hits, 1,310 Google Groups hits EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL--345,000 Google hits, 14,200 Google Groups hits Awright, did my taxes. Me and the wife Jennifer Lopez thought Ben Affleck looked bloated on Saturday Night Live....Time to talk about extra virgins. I saw this on a menu as EVOO and was a little confused. Some give it as E.V.O.O. It looks bad--like some blend of "evil" + "voodoo." Do you serve EVOO with TIVO? OED added "extra virgin olive oil" as recently as December 2002. "EVOO" is not listed. There is a citation in 1981. Newspaperarchive has something from 1916. (OED)(added December 2002) B. n. Extra-virgin olive oil. 1981 Bon Appétit May 130/2 One of the best is Olivar, an extra virgin. 1994 Toronto Life June 81/1 Surrounded by tarragon-spangled cherry tomatoes and asparagus over extra-virgin with lemon. 2000 A. BOURDAIN Kitchen Confid. (2001) 194, I pour extra virgin into a pan and sauté some paper-thin garlic slices with some crushed red pepper. (GOOGLE GROUPS)("EVOO") Re: Using Balsamic Vinegar ... I make a BV salad dressing that gets raves: 1/3 cup each BV, EXTRA Virgin Olive Oil, water (or another 1/3 c EVOO) 1-2 cloves minced garlic 1/2 teas. ... rec.food.cooking - Apr 2, 1993 by Cyndi Smith - Dear Elizabeth, Absolutely! Please send the abstract along as soon as you can, and thanks for your response. With all best wishes, Michael From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 15 00:25:31 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:25:31 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Deviance" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: deviance (OED 1944) 1937 Anthony O'Hear _An Introduction to the Philosophy of Science_ 64 We have just considered the case of the deviance of Uranus. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 15 00:33:47 2004 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:33:47 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Racism" In-Reply-To: <200403020319.i223JpA04386@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: racism (OED 1936) 1928 Herbert W. Schneider _Making the Fascist State_ 166 The intimate alliance between national syndicalism and racism became evident. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 15 01:10:38 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:10:38 -0500 Subject: Antedating of 'press conference' Message-ID: M-W and OED both use 1937( A Time mag. cite). The first cite I can find is 30 May, 1870 _NY Times_ page 1/col. 2?(Proquest) (I can't devine just what this use of the term means) <> That's the oldest I can find. The next is 5 May, 1893 _Oshkosh(WI) Daily Northwestern 3/2 (from an article about the World's Fair in Chicago) <> Not a political use of the term. The first cite I can find for a "political" press conference is from the NYTimes, 9 June, 1909 page 4(Proquest) <> The first US cite I can find for a political "press conference" is from 8 October, 1918 _City Daily Citizen_ Iowa City(IA) 1/2 <At 4 o'clock a press conference was arranged after President Wildon had consulted with Colonel House, ....>> Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 15 01:15:27 2004 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:15:27 -0500 Subject: President 'Wildon' = Wilson Message-ID: My bad. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 01:29:00 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:29:00 -0500 Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962) Message-ID: COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol Burnett and Woody Allen. Both of them used it (see below), but neither coined it. Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly agree with this one. September 11th won't ever be funny. The holocaust is not funny. I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple" published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny. Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976 ...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy. His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and.. Reno, Nevada Sunday, May 02, 1976 628 k Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000 ...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing.. Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, February 15, 2000 596 k Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962 ...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a.. Reno, Nevada Wednesday, December 05, 1962 1070 k (Same as the following--ed.) Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962 ...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M. PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of.. Salisbury, Maryland Friday, November 23, 1962 662 k Pg. 23, col. 3: "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time. After getting the bills, I believe it." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1943. p. 4 (1 page) (I didn't see it--ed.) Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping: Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page): PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett: "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus time. When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh." Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .' By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page): "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." Like something horrible that happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward. THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh. JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 2001. p. C15 (1 page): "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Mar 15 01:32:22 2004 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:32:22 -0600 Subject: Origin of John Kerry's last name Message-ID: This is to ans-l and ads-l: A recent issue of the German magazine Spiegel (1 March 2004, p. 109) tells how John Kerry's grandfather came to have the last name Kerry. The story probably appears in John Kerry's autobiography: (translation): "In contrast [to the blueblood origin of the mother's side of the family], the Kerrys have a prosaic family tree. The grandfather of the little JFK [i.e, John Forbes Kerry, vs. President JFK] was actually named Fritz Kohn and was a Jew from Bohemia. Before his emigration in 1904, he looked over a map, selected a new name based on the Irish county Kerry and converted to Catholicism." Gerald Cohen P.S. I suppose that grandfather Kohn was influenced in his choice of Kerry (county) by the presence of initial K in both names. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 02:36:55 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: Life is just one... (1909); Dirty Shirt; Extra Virgin Message-ID: LIFE IS JUST ONE DAMNED THING AFTER ANOTHER Another citation. See ADS-L archives. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Charleroi Mail - 10/25/1909 ...surprISe some people to learn that LIFE IS JUST ONE durn thing after another. We.....lose much of the higher enjoyments of LIFE. The Citizens' Entertainment course IS.....it forms at table which IS eaten JUST like candy. They may be taken at any.....little for pleasure as it used to, and some ONE IS cut off each month4y pay. It IS the.. Charleroi, Pennsylvania Monday, October 25, 1909 827 k Mansfield News - 11/18/1909 ...It was u sort of reminder that LIFE IS JUST ONE darned s; after anclher. wasn't.....Old Reliable." Tbe ONE of your puppies has JUST lost hIS tall. The gerve.s him right. I.....to be practical in (he leading of a LIFE to benefit e world became the founder of.....v.ail never raniMl and had so care. than LIFE toot twcs the drean-ji to there w I'm ot.. Mansfield, Ohio Thursday, November 18, 1909 753 k Washington Post - 11/12/1909 ...good cigars smoke HAVANA Ijidfc i i LIFE IS JUST ONE thing after an other the last thing.....of the chil dren What shall you give them? JUST what your mother gave you, and JUST wbat.....CIEBK POUND DEAD. The Southeastern Mutual LIFE and AcBecause of a Woman. Because It.....to the ordeal A A makes its anticipation ONE of dread. Friend IS the only remedy which.. Washington, District Of Columbia Friday, November 12, 1909 676 k Adams County News - 10/29/1910 ...last act Uncle Dave declaies that "LIFE IS JUST ONE darn thing after another. Mr.....they have carried ONE ton, there being JUST two hundred and twenty-four gallons in a.....the day following. And although the fall IS JUST getting a good start the farmers are.....half a day, and Margaret Royer mISsed ONE day. Following IS the report of Union.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, October 29, 1910 725 k --------------------------------------------------------------- DIRTY SHIRT More dirty shirts. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) PRINCE BISMARCK'S LETTERS. GEORGE M TOWLE. The Literary World; a Monthly Review of Current Literature (1870-1904). Boston: Jan 4, 1879. Vol. 10, Iss. 1; p. 3 (1 page) : Writing to his wife as to the contrast of his former with his present life: "I do not know how I bore it formerly; if I had to live now as I did then--without God, without yourself, without the children--I really do not know why I should not throw off this life like a dirty shirt." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times) 1. Display Ad 24 -- No Title Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 13, 1926. p. 19 (1 page): But, on the square, I'm off oil like a dirty shirt, and I wish to goodness the people that submit me a thousand oil propositions a week, would just forget that I ever saw an oil well, because I'm not interested... 2. Civil Strife Rocks Caliente's Official Family Over Week-end Meetings; "NEW DEAL" STARTS WAR Anger and Long Back Project Sponsors of Border Track Divided Over Success of Undertaking PAUL LOWRY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 12, 1934. p. 12 (1 page): Instead they passed us up like a dirty shirt. 3. Equine Pair in Comeback; Heelfly and Chief Onaway Return to Races After Many Months' Layoff PAUL LOWRY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 21, 1940. p. 12 (1 page): A coming 7-year-old, Heelfly has had more hard luck than a porcupine has quills and he has been passed back and forth like a dirty shirt. 4. BY THE WAY with BILL HENRY Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 9, 1957. p. B1 (1 page): Gov. Chandler has set the speed limit at 60 m.p.h., which, as he says, "is fast enough" but if you stick with it you'll be passed up like a dirty shirt every now and then. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (Washington Post) Around the Ring . . . By Bill McCormick.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 27, 1935. p. SP6 (1 page): If you fail to follow through this time, I'm going to be off you like a dirty shirt. --------------------------------------------------------------- EXTRA VIRGIN An extra extra virgin. Read all about it. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Noni goes a-marketing Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 30, 1926. p. A6 (1 page): Improve your salad--improve your health--Castruccio Bros. extra virgin cream salad olive oil is the brand to be used-... (FACTIVA) Dee Dee does Madonna Diane White, Globe Staff 658 words 26 October 1992 The Boston Globe City Edition 32 (...) Dee Dee understands why you might be concerned. Any fantasy in which Wilford Brimley plays a role is hardly "normal" and bespeaks an unusual sort of erotomania. But it is nothing to be ashamed of. Dee Dee has a recurring fantasy in which she frolics in a vat of EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) with Martha Stewart and the Frugal Gourmet. It is not a fantasy Dee Dee would choose to have, but that's the thing about fantasies, we can't always control them. So relax and enjoy! (FROLICS IN A VAT OF EVOO WITH MARTHA STEWART?--ed.) From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 02:39:33 2004 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Atlanta=20Hartsfield=20Ai?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rport?= Message-ID: I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta." I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It has been so long since they went out of business, I can't remember. In a message dated 3/14/04 4:16:36 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: > I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield > Airport. > > This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern > Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta".  A quickie Google search > turned up this > proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta > Hartsfield, but with varying airlines. > > I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning > from Florida from the Skylab launch. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The phrase "zigged when I should have zagged" sounds like it comes from > World > War II (or even World War I) when ships sailed on zig-zag courses to avoid > submarines. > >          - Jim Landau > > From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Mar 15 02:48:06 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:48:06 -0800 Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962) In-Reply-To: <07747B44.5BCEFDDE.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: There's a 1979 piece in the Times suggesting it was Lenny Bruce who cooked that one up... Bits of Lenny Bruce Embassy Club Ned Chaillet. [Reviews] Compulsive truthtelling com- bined with manic fantasy must have a clinical name. For the sake of simplicity we can call it satire when we speak of Lenny Bruce, but Bruce's own definitiion of satire took account of public acceptability. He called it "Tragedy Plus Time" and suggested that Adolf Hitler would become a reasonable subject for laughter in the future. ... -jk At 05:29 PM 3/14/04, you wrote: >COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits > > My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol > Burnett and Woody Allen. Both of them used it (see below), but neither > coined it. > Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly > agree with this one. September 11th won't ever be funny. The holocaust > is not funny. I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my > mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen > years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple" > published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny. > Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier. > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976 >...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy. >His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME >passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And >at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for >four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and.. >Reno, Nevada Sunday, May 02, 1976 628 k > >Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000 >...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing >process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems >to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this >TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man >since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing.. >Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, February 15, 2000 596 k > >Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962 >...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting >the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL >BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my >TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN >ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a.. >Reno, Nevada Wednesday, December 05, 1962 1070 k >(Same as the following--ed.) > >Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962 >...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting >the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and >in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M. >PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into >thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of.. >Salisbury, Maryland Friday, November 23, 1962 662 k >Pg. 23, col. 3: > "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time. After getting the bills, > I believe it." > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It >Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, >1943. p. 4 (1 page) >(I didn't see it--ed.) > >Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping: >Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, >D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page): > PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett: "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus > time. When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after > the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh." > > Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .' >By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, >Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page): > "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." Like something horrible that > happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward. > > THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh. >JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, >2001. p. C15 (1 page): > "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody > Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors." From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Mar 15 03:03:15 2004 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:03:15 -0800 Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962) In-Reply-To: <07747B44.5BCEFDDE.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Essayist Clarence Page also considers Lenny as the source: CLARENCE PAGE: It's not hard to imagine Lenny somewhere getting a big laugh out of this. It was he, after all, who famously declared satire to be a formulation of tragedy plus time. "Give any tragedy enough time," he said, "and people will let you make fun of it." ( Singing ) Indeed, today even a musical with a song called "Springtime for Hitler" can be a Broadway hit. But heaven help the performing artist who is ahead of his or her time. If Will Rogers never met a man he didn't like, Lenny Bruce never met an obscene word he didn't like to repeat over and over again, draining it of its punch and power, and using it to make a larger point about real obscenity in the world, like war and bigotry and greed. Compared to that, Lenny would say, "heck, words won't kill you, man. Like, they're only words." http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/july-dec03/page_07-15.html A number of sites refer to this quote: "Satire is tragedy plus time. You give it enough time, the public, the reviewers will allow you to satirize it. Which is rather ridiculous, when you think about it." -jk At 05:29 PM 3/14/04, you wrote: >COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits > > My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol > Burnett and Woody Allen. Both of them used it (see below), but neither > coined it. > Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly > agree with this one. September 11th won't ever be funny. The holocaust > is not funny. I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my > mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen > years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple" > published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny. > Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier. > > >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) >Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976 >...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy. >His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME >passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And >at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for >four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and.. >Reno, Nevada Sunday, May 02, 1976 628 k > >Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000 >...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing >process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems >to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this >TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man >since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing.. >Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, February 15, 2000 596 k > >Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962 >...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting >the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL >BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my >TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN >ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a.. >Reno, Nevada Wednesday, December 05, 1962 1070 k >(Same as the following--ed.) > >Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962 >...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting >the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and >in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M. >PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into >thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of.. >Salisbury, Maryland Friday, November 23, 1962 662 k >Pg. 23, col. 3: > "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time. After getting the bills, > I believe it." > > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It >Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, >1943. p. 4 (1 page) >(I didn't see it--ed.) > >Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping: >Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, >D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page): > PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett: "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus > time. When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after > the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh." > > Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .' >By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, >Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page): > "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." Like something horrible that > happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward. > > THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh. >JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, >2001. p. C15 (1 page): > "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody > Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 03:49:20 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:49:20 -0500 Subject: When the Dead Sea was only sick (1948?); Rooster socks Message-ID: WHEN THE DEAD SEA WAS ONLY SICK WHEN THE DEA SEA WAS + SICK--282 Google hits, 114 Google Groups hits I'm going through an excellent article on FACTIVA: "TALK OF TEXAS: Dognation! Old sayings rain in like for Noah" by Carol Rust, HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 5 April 1992. (It's long.) "Hector" isn't here, but there are three "long time" phrases: When the Dead Sea was just sick. Since Patton was a private. Since Jesus was a baby. (FACTIVA) Nobel hits home // Fermilab head, 2 others share award for physics Jim Ritter 792 words 20 October 1988 Chicago Sun-Times FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL 1 English (Copyright 1988) Leon Lederman was in typical form Wednesday, mixing jokes with physics as he discussed his Nobel Prize. "I knew I would get the Nobel when I noticed that the three doctors who won for medicine are all in their 80s," said Lederman, 66. "This is the year for the geriatric Nobel Prize. . . . I'm so old I can remember when the Dead Sea was only sick." (FACTIVA) WHEN TALKING TEXAN, THIS DOG'LL HUNT Kent Biffle 1,391 words 26 March 1989 The Dallas Morning News HOME FINAL 37a English (Copyright 1989) Writer Wallace Chariton of Plano is soooooo Texan. He sent a low-bidding Indiana printer a book manuscript to go on the press and a bag of Texas dirt to go under it. When the dust settled, Wally's book was, yes, printed on Texas soil. This Dog'll Hunt is Wally's Texas dictionary, a tow sack full of memorable sayings he treed in Texas. (...) *Elderly -- He was around when the Dead Sea was just sick. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) (Someone please check. It looks like a legitimate Earl Wilson piece. though...I'm having problems signing on. I have to re-join Newspaperarchive each time I use it at NYU?--ed.) Times Recorder - 11/24/1948 ...been around so long she WAS THEre WHEN THE DEAD SEA WAS embalmed That's earl, broTHEr.....THE state's highest court WHEN he filed for THE Senate. He WAS named to THE court in 1944.....for THE trend toward locating factories in THE nation's smaller communities. THE trend.....Two WAS company anri three WAS a columnist WHEN Charmin' Sharman Douglas WAS dated at El.. Zanesville, Ohio Wednesday, November 24, 1948 818 k --------------------------------------------------------------- SOCKS ON A ROOSTER (continued) I'll try to look through this book for what/when it considers the source: (OCLC WORLDCAT) Socks on a rooster; Louisiana's Earl K. Long, Author: McCaughan, Richard B. Publication: Baton Rouge, Claitor's Book Store, 1967 Document: English : Book From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 04:25:48 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:25:48 -0500 Subject: Big Hat, No Cattle (1961, 1977) Message-ID: BIG HAT, NO CATTLE--1,970 Google hits, 450 Google Groups hits There's a gap between 1961 and 1977, but keep in mind we don't have a lot of newspapers from Texas of this period that are digitized. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Big hat, no cattle : managing human resources / Author: Skinner, Wickham. Publication: Boston : Division of Research, Graduate School of Business Administration, Harvard University, 1980 Document: English : Book Libraries Worldwide: 1 (OCLC WORLDCAT) Author(s): Newman, Randy. Publication: Beverly Hills, CA :; DreamWorks, Year: 1999 Description: 1 sound cassette :; Dolby processed. Language: English Music Type: Rock music Standard No: Publisher: DRMC 50115; Dreamworks Contents: My country --; Shame --; I'm dead (but I don't know it) --; Every time it rains --; The great nations of Europe --; The one you love --; The world isn't fair --; Big hat, no cattle --; Better off dead --; I miss you --; Going home --; I want everyone to like me. (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Lima News - 12/15/1977 ...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT, NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the CATTLE.....coach. "The over-all quickness of their BIG people is impressive. AND they play tough.....the game with two Disaster mangled coach's BIG dream EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP) Bobby Watson.....point of the game. "This is definitely a BIG lift for the Indiana said NOtre Dame.. Lima, Ohio Thursday, December 15, 1977 554 k Hillsboro Press Gazette - 12/15/1977 ...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the catt'.e.....coach. "The over-all quickness of their BIG people is impressive. AND they play tough.....sports any more. They are a hard business. BIG money business. It's every man for.....consideration with 542 yards. The all-time BIG 10 scorer will be battling Houston's Rob.. Hillsboro, Ohio Thursday, December 15, 1977 606 k Mountain Democrat - 1/25/1982 ...age of 32. "It's the same old story, BIG HAT AND NO CATTLE. San Jose Earthquakes owner.....left) AND Eric Jenkins converge on the BIG center but too late. Democrat photo by.....BIG Lady Bruin vyin B-2B Ponderosa cagers B-3.....with it when you consider tHAT Jim Otto, of NO knees AND "Pride AND is fixing those.. Placerville, California Monday, January 25, 1982 408 k Indiana Evening Gazette - 12/15/1977 ...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT, NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the CATTLE.....points per Contest AND rebounding well. The BIG bcrost has come from crackerjack Beaver.....World Series from 1972 to 1974. The BIG names of tHAT era are gone, AND the A's.....The Haven is young, with NO dominating BIG man. Taylor has been shuffling people in.. Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 15, 1977 726 k Gettysburg Times - 12/15/1977 ...Mr. Davis is NOt like a ot of Texans BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the.....Alabama defeated NO. 15 Michigan 78-63 AND 19thranked Kansas State clobDICK MYERS.....points early in the game behind Louis Orr AND Ross Kindel AND went on to an easy.....of eight. Reginald King scored 30 points AND grabbed 12 rebounds AND Anthony Murray.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 15, 1977 506 k Gettysburg Times - 2/27/1995 ...of this, Ann? Baffled Betty Dear Betty: BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. Gem of the Day: When the.....relationships NO small attribute. Lupine AND Poppies, Phlox AND Larkspur are.....furniture, old-fashioned fashions of lace AND hoop-skirts AND bonnets, AND I adore old.....house has one large container for trash AND one for cardboard AND paper; NO overflow.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 27, 1995 575 k (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times) 1. Joy, Anger and, by Finley, a Parting Shot at Kuhn; Joy, Anger and, From Finley, a Parting Shot at Kuhn By JOSEPH DURSO. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 15, 1977. p. 74 (2 pages) 2. What They Are Saying New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1977. p. 212 (1 page): Charles O. Finley, who sold the Oakland A's to Marvin Davis, a Denver oil man: "Mr. Davis put the money on the line. Mr. Davis is not like a lot of Texans--big hat, no cattle. That man's got the cattle..." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post) 1. On Standing Up to Be Counted; Gallery Glimpses Matter of Degree Doubletalk Plain Talk Women's Work... Probing the Frontier Jabbing the Klan Senate Has a News 'Pro' Flash! Title By Robert C. Albright Staff Reporter. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1961. p. E1 (2 pages) FIRST PAGE: Rep. David T. Martin (R.-Neb.) reports another barbed one: How an Oklahoma Indian defines a New Frontiersman: "Big hat--no cattle." Needless to say, this kind of irreverence is confined pretty much to the Republican corner. 2. Denver Oilman Purchases A's From Finley; A's Lease Poses Problem The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Dec 15, 1977. p. 96 (2 pages) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 15 04:58:16 2004 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:58:16 -0500 Subject: Kicked to death by grasshoppers (1817) Message-ID: DEATH BY GRASSHOPPERS--6 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit There aren't a lot of hits for this (alleged) Texas saying, but I thought it's amusing. There are two early hits here. This surely would take a lot of grasshoppers! (GOOGLE) Compare Prices and Read Reviews on Abominable Dr. Phibes at ... ... death. There is a death by rats, a death by bees, a death by grasshoppers, and Phibes sets everything with exceptional care. All ... www.epinions.com/content_116965346948 - 39k - Cached - Similar pages 
Beaufort County, NC - Letters ...
... I will pay you in eighteen months and not before. If I don't pay you
by that time I wish I may be kicked to death by Grasshoppers. ...
ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/nc/ beaufort/letters/latham01.txt - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

Texan Sayings
... You can rest assured I'm telling you the truth. "I hope to be kicked
to death by grasshoppers if it ain't the truth." I'm not lying. ...
www.baetzler.de/humor/texan_sayings.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

[ELFWOOD] SF&F Art / Sarah Billson / Sarah Billson
... speakers, succeeding in christ, boogers, dancing to classical music, elves, writing,
chewing on pens, play-fighting with nephews, death by grasshoppers, gum on ...
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/s/a/sarbil/ - 33k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Texas Sayings
... tell you a hen dips snuff, you can look under her wing." (You can rest assured I'm
telling you the truth.) "I hope to be kicked to death by grasshoppers if it ...
alt.tasteless.jokes - Jul 7, 2000 by G - P - View Thread (8 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fresno Republican - 10/26/1878
...city, as well, deserves to be kicked to DEATH BY GRASSHOPPERS for the Bame thing.....know that the art o whistling was designed BY an Providence expressly to cause breaks or.....do, where the liabilitie were represented BY one or two or tare figures and a parcel of..
Fresno, California   Saturday, October 26, 1878  777 k


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   Monthly catalogue of new publications, with critical remarks
E, L, V. The American Monthly Magazine and Critical Review (1817-1819). New York: Oct 1817. Vol. 1, Iss. 6; p. 473 (5 pages):
Pg. 476:
  Keep Cool, a Novel.  Written in Hot Weather.  By Somebody, M. D. C. &c.
   Baltimore, Joseph Cushing.  New-York, Kirk & Mercein, 12mo. 2 vols. pp. 435.
(...)
   Among the vulgar jokes are such expressions as these, "kicked to death by grasshoppers," "like shot from a shovel," "a hurra's nest," "a hen in a hurricane," &c.


From N270053 at VM.SC.EDU  Mon Mar 15 05:38:09 2004
From: N270053 at VM.SC.EDU (Michael Montgomery)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:38:09 EST
Subject: Southeastern Conference on Linguistics positions
Message-ID: 

Dear ADS-Listers (in the Southeast)

I am chairing a committee of the Southeastern Conference on Linguistics
searching to fill two leadership positions (which it is possible to
combine) in the organization.  I would appreciate your considering the
following announcement and forwarding it to anyone you believe might
have a possible interest.  The five-year terms of appointment will begin
on January 1, 2005.  Daedline for application is May 1 of this year or
the earliest point thereafter feasible.  Potential applicants are
strongly encouraged to contact me to discuss any issues that present
themselves.  Please feel free to email me atullans at yahoo.com or phone
me at 803.765.0594.

I realize that the ADS list does not usually carry job announcements,
but in view of time pressures and other considerations this has become
a necessity.

With regards

Michael Montgomery


1.  Executive Secretary/Managing Editor

The Executive Secretary/Managing Editor of the Southeastern
Conference on Linguistics shall be appointed by the Executive
Committee of the Society for a five-year renewable term.  The
Executive Secretary/Managing Editor shall be answerable to the
Executive Committee and is expected to submit a written report to
the Executive Committee at least one week prior to the Spring
meeting.

Secretarial responsibilities include recording the transactions of
the Society and the Executive Committee and presenting minutes of
these transactions at each successive meeting, copies of which
minutes are to be given to each member of the Executive Committee
and posted at the Society's website; maintaining the Society's
membership list; coordinating plans for Society meetings; working
with the Program Committee to review abstracts and organize the
schedule for Society meetings; representing the Society in the
larger linguistic community; and performing such functions as may
be assigned by the President and the Executive Committee.

The Executive Secretary/Managing Editor shall be the chief fiscal
and organizational officer of the Society.  Fiscal responsibilities
include collecting dues; keeping records of dues paid; maintaining
Society funds in an authorized financial institution; dispensing
funds as approved by the Executive Committee; and presenting to the
Society at its Spring meeting a financial report which shall have
been audited by an auditor and a copy of which shall be presented
to each member of the Executive Committee.  Only the Executive
Secretary, or his/her designee, shall be empowered to write checks
for the Society.  The Executive Secretary is expected to keep up-
to-date accounts of finances and membership and to provide annually
to the President and Vice-President a list of members' postal and
email addresses.

Editorial responsibilities of Executive Secretary/Managing Editor
include maintaining the Society's website; soliciting information
and contributions for the Society's website; contracting with a
printer for the Southern Journal of Linguistics (henceforth `the
Journal'); making financial arrangements for mailing and collecting
payment for the Journal; promoting the Journal to libraries and
other potential new subscribers; and answering all queries and
correspondence regarding the Journal.  The Executive
Secretary/Managing Editor is expected to have support stated in
writing from his/her institution, in the form of a reduced teaching
load, use of departmental equipment and supplies, student
assistants, or other necessary arrangements.  S/he may use up to
$500 annually to fund travel to the Spring meeting.




2.  Editor of the Southern Journal of Linguistics

The Editor shall be also be appointed by the Executive
Committee of the Society for a five-year renewable term.  S/he
shall also be answerable to the Executive Committee and is expected
to submit a written report to the Executive Committee at least one
week prior to the Spring meeting.  The Editor is responsible for
publishing the Journal in fiscal concert with the Executive
Secretary/Managing Editor.  Editorial responsibilities include
soliciting manuscripts for review; managing the review and revision
of manuscripts in a timely manner; appointing and utilizing an
Editorial Board and, if warranted, a Book Review Editor; assuring
timely publication of the Journal; editing and producing copy of
articles, book reviews, artwork, cover design and advertisements
for the Journal; working with the printer with all details of
production, such as paper selection, color schemes, scans, etc.;
and collecting the copies of the Journal and mailing them.  The
Editor is expected to have support stated in writing from his/her
institution to assist the editing of the Journal as well as a
reduced teaching load, use of departmental equipment, supplies, and
space, and student assistants.  S/he may use up to $500 annually to
fund travel to the Spring meeting.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 10:54:43 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:43 EST
Subject: Razor Soup(1876); So ugly(1984); Off/Prom Dress(1990);
 Tragedy/Pants Torn (1936)
Message-ID: 

RAZOR SOUP

RAZOR SOUP--9 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits

   That 1992 HOUSTON CHRONICLE "Talk of Texas" article has: "So sharp he must
have had razor soup for breakfast."
   It's not a popular American regional dish.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: bronco breaks Texan!
... Jim was wrestling the rhino into the Land Rover. Sharp as razor soup,
that Greg. Ben "Wolf Ticket" Murphey Yeah, we Broncs are a ...
bit.listserv.skeptic - Jul 26, 1994 by greg bart - View Thread (3 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gazette And Bulletin - 7/14/1950
...a sharp mark was accused of having eaten RAZOR SOUP? July 14, 1880 William
P. Baker..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Friday, July 14, 1950  764 k

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 5/30/1954
...BOSS CALHOOW WON'T BE CALLIN' LIKE SHE HAP RAZOR SOUP FOR BREAKFAST...
MEENA, WHAT TIME..
Great Bend, Kansas Sunday, May 30, 1954  723 k

Ohio Democrat - 8/3/1876
...Advocate, he must have been indulging in RAZOR SOUP. GEN. THOMAS Ewiso, we
are glad to..
New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 03, 1876  1013 k
Pg. 3?, col. 3:
   "G." is entirely too sharp, and like Larry of the _Advocate_, he must have
been indulging in razor soup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO UGLY THAT THE TIDE WON'T TAKE HER OUT

SO UGLY + TIDE--2,670 Google hits, 642 Google hits

   Another in the "Talk of Texas" article.  This is classic ugly.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Ugly jokes
Well, here goes with some of the worst "ugly jokes:" S/he's so ugly
even the tide wouldn't take her/him out. S/he's so ugly that ...
net.jokes - Aug 25, 1984 by Geoffrey R. Walton - View Thread (13 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OFF LIKE A PROM DRESS

LIKE A PROM DRESS--1,570 Google hits, 1,120 Google Groups hits

   The guy wears a "dirty shirt."  The girl wears a "prom dress."  Such is
American speech.
   Not in the HDAS or the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Predictions for Week 3 (NFL)
... Cowboys over Redskins (the 'Pokes love RFK Stadium) Jets over Bills
... maybe BIG It's late, and I'm off like a prom dress Zippy
rec.sport.football - Sep 21, 1990 by Zippy - View Thread (3 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HUMOR IS MERELY TRAGEDY STANDING ON ITS HEAD WITH ITS PANTS TORN

PANTS TORN + TRAGEDY + COBB--34 Google hits, 131 Google Groups hits

   "Humor is tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn" is not as
popular as "humor is tragedy plus time."  Maybe tragedy got new pants?
   The exact date of the source is not given in the many Google hits.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Helena Independent - 5/16/1937
...is TRAGEDY standing on its head .with Its PANTS TORN. Lots of folks think
a sense of.....happen in the dirigible's Morn wlien :t was TORN with n flaming
explosion. Considered one.....the loss, of life fwra the airliner TRAGEDY of
Increased to 34. A Otrmaa on the..
Helena, Montana Sunday, May 16, 1937  536 k

Nashua Reporter - 6/2/1937
...this definition is TRAGEDY standing on its PANTS TORN. Lots ol folks think
a mor is..
Nashua, Iowa Wednesday, June 02, 1937  968 k

Helena Independent - 4/21/1936
...be TRAGEDY standing on its hea.fl with Its PANTS TORN. IRVIN S. COBB.
ia3fl by NAMA..
Helena, Montana Tuesday, April 21, 1936  479 k

Indiana Weekly Messenger - 6/3/1937
...is TRAGEDY standing on i1s head with its PANTS TORN. Lots of folks think a
srr.se of..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 03, 1937  761 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 11:45:36 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:45:36 EST
Subject: Weaned on a pickle (1924)
Message-ID: 

WEANED ON A PICKLE--328 Google hits, 159 Google Groups hits

    This famous food phrase is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF
AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.  Perhaps Fred Shapiro has the exact date that Alice
Roosevelt Longworth said it.
   The "Talk of Texas" list has: "Sour personality: Looks like she was weaned
on a pickle."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newark Advocate - 5/22/1929
...she grAbbed thAt Ancient wheeze About being WEANED ON A PICKLE And mAde it
All her.....weddings. The UUe.s of emotiON run so deep ON such An occAsiON,
thAt they would rAther.....ll bet, nAught cAn go fAster ThAn A rneter ON A
motor. Single copy... .-c. Uy cAriK-r oy..
Newark, Ohio Wednesday, May 22, 1929  816 k

Middlesboro Daily News - 9/3/1924
...the CoolidffC bAnner, the mAnAgers wAs WEANED ON A PICKLE.' By those who h
Ave hAil.....to mAke the DAvis cAndidAcy will dwell ON whAt book does not sAy,
rAther thAn ON.....ChicAgo, 111. LocAl Advertising rAtes ON ApplicAtiON. FlAt
RAtes PoliticAl: To be..
Middlesboro, Kentucky Wednesday, September 03, 1924  530 k
Pg.2?, col. 5:
   A new Coolidge story has bobbed up in Washington.  How it will affect the
campaign, if at all is not yet determined.
   Apropos of the president's rather sour visage, one of the younger and less
reverent members of the official family is said to have remarked "Coolidge
was weaned on a pickle."
   By those who have had occasion to test the rather acid quality of the
president's sarcasm, this phrase has been dubbed a stroke of genius.

Zanesville Signal - 5/19/1929
...the suggestiON thAt Mr. Cbolidge hAd been, "WEANED 'ON A PICKLE." Her lA
test .reported.....SIX FLYING FREIGHTER OF THE SKIES HOPS OFF ON JUNE 1 ON FIRST
VOYAGE ACROSS THE erlin.....AirplAne crossing is scheduled to begin ON e 1,
when the big GermAn irbAch flying..
Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, May 19, 1929  1375 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 9/13/1924
...of chAnge. Mr. LA Follette CAlvin hAd been WEANED ON A PICKLE, represents
rAdicAlism.....other tests of reAlity thAn whAt mAy be put ON pAper. ON Mr. DA
vis's superior trAining.....LA Follette. He is reAthe first cAndidAte ON the
operAting S011 cArrying A flAg of..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, September 13, 1924  667 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 5/24/1929
...suggestiON thAt Mr. Coolldge .Tmcl been "WEANED ON A PICKLE." Her lAtost
Is reported.....Some who know her sAy she hAs never been ON time Anywhere. But
no mAtter how lAte she.....veterAns who mAde their hornet here, hAngs ON the
south wAll of the MemoriAl building..
Ironwood, Michigan Friday, May 24, 1929  477 k


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 15:27:51 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:27:51 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
In-Reply-To: <200403140502.i2E521vq025632@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

E.A.Martinez-Gibson posted as follows:

        >>>
TWljaGFlbCwNCiANCkkgYW0gd29ya2luZyBvbiBhIHByb2plY3QgdGhhdCBkZWFscyB3aXRoIHRo
ZSBhY3F1aXNpdG9uIG9mIHNlciBhbmQgZXN0YXIuIFRoZSB0ZXN0IEkgZ2F2ZSB0aGUgc3R1ZGVu
dHMgdGVzdHMgdG8gc2VlIGlmIHN0dWRlbnRzIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgY2VydGFpbiBjb25jZXB0cyBp
biBFbmdsaXNoLklzIHRoaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHlvdSBtaWdodCBiZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGZv
ciB0aGUgQURTIHNlc3Npb24/IElmIHNvLCBJIGNhbiBnZXQgeW91IGFuIGFic3RyYWN0IGJ5IFdl
ZG5lc2RheSB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0Lg0KIA0KRWxpemFiZXRoIE1hcnRpbmV6LUdpYnNvbg0KQ29sbGVn
                [...]
        <<<

Whatever that is, please don't do it. Post text -- not zipfiles, not
Word files, not binaries. Thank you.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 15:32:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:32:02 -0500
Subject: A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN
Message-ID: 

I seem to recall seeing this in one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little
House" books (fictionalized memoirs of growing up in the 1870s in the
settlement of the Midwest, in a plural form: "Whistling women [girls?]
and crowing hens..."

While certainly not an antedate to Barry's of (Republican Compiler -
5/26/1840), it suggests another form to search for.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Mon Mar 15 15:50:00 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:50:00 -0500
Subject: A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

In the bathroom in our cabin in West Virginia there is a kitchy, country
plaque that reads, "Whistling girls and crowing hens all come to some bad end."

Kathleen E. Miller
The New York Times


At 10:32 AM 3/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>I seem to recall seeing this in one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little
>House" books (fictionalized memoirs of growing up in the 1870s in the
>settlement of the Midwest, in a plural form: "Whistling women [girls?]
>and crowing hens..."
>
>While certainly not an antedate to Barry's of (Republican Compiler -
>5/26/1840), it suggests another form to search for.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 16:13:59 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:13:59 -0500
Subject: ppl of "strode"
In-Reply-To: <200403120500.i2C50Avq028288@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

(Apologies for not threading with the exact subject line, but it comes
out here as

Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_subject-verb_agreement_-_stri?=
         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dden?=

That is, equal-sign question-mark ISO-8859-1 question-mark Q
question-mark ... and more such junk.)

Arnold of Zwicky, or arnold of zwicky, writes:

        >>>

once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are then
four possible analogies giving a past participle:

1.  pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven)
2.  pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken)
3.  pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found)
4.  pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven)

the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar
with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
"strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write.  (note that
all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have
an alveolar obstruent after it.  so "stride" fits well into this
class.)

        <<<

What's more, it *rhymes* with "ride"-- as close a model as you'll find.
That should be an even stronger "argument" to the speaker's mind than
"alveolar obstruent".

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 15 17:25:35 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:25:35 -0500
Subject: Remarkable Definition & Antedating of "Burgle"
In-Reply-To: <200403151146.i2FBk1J01923@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

1. Bryan Garner points out that the OED has a remarkable definition for
_burglarize_: "To rob burglariously."

2. Here is a slight antedating of the wonderful Penzancian back-formation
_burgle_:


burgle (OED 1872)

1871 _Appleton's Journal of Literature, Science and Art_ 2 Sept. 279
(American Periodical Series)  The following paragraph shows some of the
new words that have been coined by the modern school of journalists: "he
excurted a day or two on beer, and, getting short, he burgled a little.
But he was soon copped and jailed.  The news was immediately wired to his
amiable wife, who railed to him at once."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Mar 15 17:31:03 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:31:03 -0000
Subject: ppl of "strode"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Mark Mandel writes:

> the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no
> exemplar with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
> "strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
> verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write.  (note that
> all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have
> an alveolar obstruent after it.  so "stride" fits well into this
> class.)

Analogy is a powerful force, I agree. What then am I analogising with
when I feel the correct past participle is "strode"> (I hadn't even
considered "stridden" until this discussion started, despite its
being urged on users by both Fowler and Garner.) A search through my
historical printed works database (derived from the Project Gutenberg
archive) finds more examples of "had strode" than of "had stridden",
including one from "Lady Chatterley's Lover": "One afternoon, as she
sat brooding, watching the water bubbling coldly in John's Well, the
keeper had strode up to her."

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Mar 15 17:34:51 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:34:51 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re=3A_subject-verb_agreem?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?ent_-_stridden?=
Message-ID: 

        Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate and Webster's New World College 4th also go for stridden as the past participle of stride.  I found this a little surprising, since I don't recall ever hearing or reading the word "stridden."  I suppose that if I were going to use the past participle of stride, I would say "strode."

        I seem to be in reasonably good company.  I did a little survey of Google, Google Groups, and Westlaw's Allnewsplus file.  "Has strode" and "have strode" were the most popular choices, with 611, 157, and 199 uses, respectively.  "Has stridden" and "have stridden" were distinctly less popular, with 189, 22, and 32 uses.  "Has strided" and "have strided" brought up the rear with 108, 12, and 4 uses.  Note that the difference is most pronounced on Westlaw, the only one of my three databanks that consistently uses professionally edited sources.

        Notwithstanding the cogent arguments that have been given for "stridden," I think that most people don't recognize it as a valid word.  "Strided," of course, is obviously inappropriate.  That leaves only "strode" as a recognized existing word that can fill the gap.

        After writing the above, I checked the Century Dictionary, which accepts either stridden or strid as the past participle.  "Has strid" and "have strid" do not seem to have any significant support on Google or Google Groups.

John Baker


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 20:55:11 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:55:11 EST
Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport
Message-ID: 

In a message dated  Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST,   RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

>  I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta."
>
>  I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did
>  Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It
has
>   been  so long since they went out of business, I can't remember.

I Googled on +"go to Hell"+"change planes" and +"go to Hell"+Hartsfield.

According to its Web site,
http://www.atlanta-airport.com/Default.asp?url=sublevels/airport_info/gmpage.h
tm,
the airport has been in operation since 1926, with several name changes along
the way.

1942
In July, because of a dispute with the Post Office, the City reaffirmed the
name as Atlanta Municipal Airport because they could not find the original
paperwork. Hartsfield later was quoted as saying that he very clearly remembered
that the City had officially changed the name in 1929.


Aside to Barry Popik:  "dirty shirts" is what the British Redcoats called
American soldiers.

         - James A. Landau


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Mar 15 21:45:44 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:45:44 -0500
Subject: thriftless drunken sailors
Message-ID: 

Someone recently asked about the spending habits of real, as opposed to rhetorical, drunken sailors.  Actually, my father had been one, in his youth, but by the time I was born he had given up the sea.
In the absence, then, of direct knowledge on the matter, I offer the following:

A Female Sailor.  --  Constable Joseph arrested yesterday, on suspicion, a young woman called "Shorty," whom the officer found in the Five Points, flush of money, and spending the same very freely.  He brought her before the magistrate, where on being questioned, she said that about thirteen months ago, she came off Blackwell's Island, having served out a sentence of three months as a common prostitute; and not wishing to engage again in the same pursuits of life to procure a living, she assumed male attire by procuring a suit of sailor's clothing, and . . . took passage in a whaling ship for a three year's cruise.  In this disguise this young woman maintained her position among the other men in the forecastle for over seven months, until . . . by a mere accident her sex was discovered.  [She was turned over to the American Consul in a port in India, who gave her a suit of women's clothes.]  About a week ago she arrived, and having over $60, which she had made by her trip, s
he was spending it at various groggeries on the Five Points, which fact looking rather suspicious, as it was supposed to have been stolen, caused the officer to bring her before Justice Mountfort.  This singular female has a very good looking countenance, short stature, and broad build; her hair was cut short; she both chewed and smoked tobacco, and talked sailor lingo very fluently, which is generally of a plain nature, embellished now and then in their own way.  Her manner of walking and movements of her body would appear to the observer as if she was a young man dressed up in female clothing.  The investigation proving satisfactory to the magistrate, she was discharged from custody.
NY Herald, January 16, 1850, p. 1, col. 6

The next refers to 1824; the writer was an out-of-work actor who had borrowed a portable telescope and had been showing people views of the moon through it from City Hall Park, NYC:
I had not counted my sixpences; but my pockets felt pretty heavy, and I was far from being dissatisfied with my two hours work; so, shouldering the instrument of my momentary good fortune, I wended my way homeward.  As I was passing through Leonard Street, I met three men, who proved to be the captain of a vessel and two of his sailors.  They hailed me, and demanded what sort of craft I had in tow.  I told them it was a powerful telescope, with which I had been viewing the stars, (I knew that the moon was out of the question, and had been for at least half an hour.)  "The stars!  I say, shipmate, let's have a squint at them stars."  "Certainly, sir; six cents a squint."  "Very well.  I say, Capt'n, and Jack, let's have eighteen pence worth of stars.  Up with your jury-mast."  "Yes."  "That's it -- steady!"  "What star will you have, gentlemen?"  "Capt'n, what star will you have?"  "What star? why, let's see -- Venus!"  "Oh, yes!  Wenus, by all means."  I raised up the telesc
ope and pointed it to the brightest star I could find, and when I turned the screws to regulate the focus, they commenced star-gazing.  After satisfying themselves with Wenus, they wanted to see Saturn, Jupiter, and a host of others.  I gratified them, at sixpence each, until the receipts from my nautical customers amounted to three dollars!  They were very tipsy, and I believe they would have given me their custom until daylight if I would have consented to stay with them.  When they had viewed a great number of planets and fixed stars, my astronomical knowledge began to give out, and I was obliged to show the same planets two or three times over, taking care to change the focus so as to give them a different appearance.  It was nearly one o'clock in the morning.  I proposed to my customers to close the exhibition, which they reluctantly agreed to; not, however, until I consented, in consideration of their being liberal patrons, to "throw in" a couple of planets for good mea
sure.
Sol Smith, Theatrical Management in the West and South for Thirty Years  First Published New York 1868.  New edition, with an Introduction and Index by Arthur Thomas Tees.  N. Y. & London: Benjamin Blom, 1968, pp. 35-36.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 23:40:43 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:40:43 EST
Subject: Go to Hell thru [what city?] first
Message-ID: 

I tried this and found six hits for Atlanta and two for Dallas. I found 
nothing about Eastern Airlines at all. Current use, then, would seem to be divided 
between Delta (Atlanta) and American (Dallas). 

According to , Atlanta and Miami were 
Eastern Hubs, from the 1950s until they went out of business (in the 1980s?). 
Thus it is totrally reasonable that the saying began with Eastern and then 
swtiched to Delta when Eastern collapsed. It makes sense, too, that Dallas would 
fill in the blank for American users.

It is interesting, though, that this seems to be mostly a Southern 
expression. After all, Delta and American both have hubs other than Atlanta. But I don't 
find any record of Los Angeles or Chicago or St. Louis or New York (all 
American hubs) filling the blank. Or even Miami (American's gateway to South 
America).

I wonder why?

In a message dated 3/15/04 3:55:46 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes:


> In a message dated  Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST,   RonButters at AOL.COM 
> wrote:
> 
> >  I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta."
> >
> >  I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did
> >  Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It
> has
> >   been  so long since they went out of business, I can't remember.
> 
> I Googled on +"go to Hell"+"change planes" and +"go to Hell"+Hartsfield.
> 
> According to its Web site,
> http://www.atlanta-airport.com/Default.asp?url=sublevels/airport_info/gmp
> age.h
> tm,
> the airport has been in operation since 1926, with several name changes 
> along
> the way.
> 
> 1942
> In July, because of a dispute with the Post Office, the City reaffirmed the
> name as Atlanta Municipal Airport because they could not find the original
> paperwork. Hartsfield later was quoted as saying that he very clearly 
> remembered
> that the City had officially changed the name in 1929.
> 
> 
> Aside to Barry Popik:  "dirty shirts" is what the British Redcoats called
> American soldiers.
> 
>          - James A. Landau
> 
> 


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 16 00:10:33 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:10:33 -0500
Subject: Go to Hell thru [what city?] first
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>I tried this and found six hits for Atlanta and two for Dallas. I found
>nothing about Eastern Airlines at all. Current use, then, would seem
>to be divided
>between Delta (Atlanta) and American (Dallas).
>
>According to , Atlanta and Miami were
>Eastern Hubs, from the 1950s until they went out of business (in the 1980s?).
>Thus it is totrally reasonable that the saying began with Eastern and then
>swtiched to Delta when Eastern collapsed. It makes sense, too, that
>Dallas would
>fill in the blank for American users.
>
>It is interesting, though, that this seems to be mostly a Southern
>expression. After all, Delta and American both have hubs other than
>Atlanta. But I don't
>find any record of Los Angeles or Chicago or St. Louis or New York (all
>American hubs) filling the blank. Or even Miami (American's gateway to South
>America).
>
>I wonder why?

I suspect that the answer lies in the history of airline routes. When
I was in Austin in the 1970s, the innovation for our travel was that
instead of changing in Dallas for travel to anywhere other than
Chicago, we got new routes directly to a fair number of other cities
(Atlanta, New York, LA). When I moved to Gainesville, the hub system
was quite novel; but it's spread since then.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 00:17:43 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:17:43 -0500
Subject: Moneybags ("chiefly British"--OED)
Message-ID: 

(OED) ("money bag, n."  draft entry Sept. 2002)
3. Cookery (chiefly Brit.). A filled pastry parcel in which the edges of a thin piece of pastry are gathered together around a filling so as to resemble a bag of money.

  1993 Evening Standard (Nexis) 9 Feb. 36 Something not to miss, however, are deep-fried buns with vegetable stuffing, little money-bags of thin pastry with a savoury filling. 1996 Daily Tel. 2 Nov. (Weekend Suppl.) 10/8 Salmon and ginger moneybags. 1999 Scotl. on Sunday (Electronic ed.) 21 Mar., For moneybags, place 2 tablespoons of filling in the centre of the square then simply bring the sides of pastry together, and pinch tight, leaving a top frill.
---------------------------------------------------------------

   Is OED crazy?  Yes, it's a British dictionary, but this is pathetic!
   I was just perusing an Asian menu at a restaurant on First Avenue and East 58th, and thought I'd check the OED's revised "moneybags."
   Most all of the Google hits are Chinese and Thai.  Asian cuisine.
   British cuisine is...oh, forget it.


(FACTIVA)
COASTAL CUISINE
SMALL RESTAURANT WITH EASTERN FLAIR HAS A BIG FOLLOWING
MARSHA BACENKO THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
589 words
20 December 2002
The Virginian-Pilot and The Ledger-Star, Norfolk, VA
FINAL
06
(...)
My appetizer, Thai money bags, were wontons cunningly tied with strings of onion to look like little purses, hence the name ($5.99). Filled with minced shrimp and vegetables and fragrant with ginger and garlic, they were delightful, bite-sized treats. They were served with a dipping sauce of soy and scallions and served with a refreshing marinated cucumber salad.


(PROQUEST)
Baby Elephant Steps: A blithe ignorance of some restaurant-biz basics keeps Galanga from living large
Karetnick, Jen. Miami New Times. Miami:  Aug 8, 2002. Vol. 17, Iss. 18;  pg. N/A
(...) And, clearly, the crowd has been starved for local action -- on a night early in the week, the place had a small wait, and the valet told us it's always packed. Judging strictly by some of the Thai appetizers, I can see why. The "money bags," rice paper dumplings stuffed with a minced combo of chicken, shrimp, corn, and potatoes and deep-fried, were a savory treat. Greaseless and crisp, the little pockets were accompanied by a mild cucumber chutney. You can order the money bags alone, or you can sample them on a variety platter for two that also includes a second highlight of steamed chicken-shrimp dumplings, pleasantly topped with a hit of fried garlic. One caveat, however: Although the platter seems like a great deal for $10.95, keep in mind that you get what you pay for. Two spears of chicken satay were tasty but unremarkable, and the two spring rolls were crunchy and delicious. But, truly, they were so Lilliputian we couldn't help comparing them to a baby boy's, ah, thumb.


(PROQUEST)
A touch of Thailand
Clarence Y K Ngui. Malaysian Business. Kuala Lumpur:  Oct 16, 2001.  pg. 78
The Mieng Kam clearly embodies typical Thai attention to detail where food is concerned. This is understandable as to the Thais, food should not only taste good but it has to look good too.  Our second appetiser was Thung Thong (RM11.90). Not unlike a fried wantan (dumpling), it comes wrapped in the shape of a golden moneybag.  Crispy, and not too oily, the `moneybag' is best eaten with a chili sauce dip.


(FACTIVA)
A freeway-close touch of Thai ; DINING; The freshness of the ingredients add a special touch to the restaurant's offerings.
MARK MUCKENFUSS
THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE
882 words
5 October 2001
The Press-Enterprise Riverside, CA
AA31
(...)
PHOTO ; MAP; Caption: PETER PHUN; THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE; From left, Kanthima Kunawong, Chef Pannee Santhavachart and Paula Rungsawang of the Papaya Bay Thai Cuisine restaurant in San Bernardino show one of their appetizers called money bags and egg rolls with sweet and sour sauce. Moneybags is a golden pastry with minced chicken corn, crushed peanuts and spices.


(FACTIVA)
Thai Palace
By Scott Bolles
877 words
1 October 2000
Sun Herald
17
(...)
Despite the sauce, the dishes survive on good core ingredients. Deep-fried chicken and water chestnut-filled "wonton pastry" (moneybags) are good without climbing the heights of the rice paper rolls, but the king prawns in a coconut batter excel. Good-quality prawns are complimented by a batter that's studded with shards of coconut without over-working the point, and the batter, which at first seems overly thick, is actually comfortably light work.


(PROQUEST)
Flavors of Asia: Abundant Cookbook Harvest Opens with Dim Sum
Harris, Phyllis Louise. Asian Pages. St. Paul:  Sep 30, 1999. Vol. 10, Iss. 2;  pg. 14
(...)
e dim sum was originally created for snacking in Chinese tea houses, Liley opens the book with some tea history and brewing suggestions. "Chinese legend has it that, in 2737 B.C., the Emperor Chen-Nung discovered tea by accident one day while sipping boiled water in his garden," she writes. "A few leaves fell from a tea bush into his cup, the emperor tasted it and liked it and the tea drinking custom began." Liley goes on to explain cooking utensils, ingredients and methods before moving on to dim sum classics, dumplings, buns, pancakes, parcels and wraps, and more. Forty recipes in all, each with a full page color photo. Choices include Golden Shrimp Balls, Pearl Balls, Shrimp Toasts, Crisp-Fried Gow Gee, Work-Fried Money Bags, Steamed Chicken Buns, Steamed Pork Ribs and Mini Vegetable Spring Rolls. These are dipping sauces and desserts as well.


(GOOGLE)(13 hits for "Thai Moneybags")
rediff.com: What's On in Bombay
... drink. The starters include mixed vegetables with sesame seeds, vegetable
spring rolls, vegetable tartlets and Thai moneybags. Happy ...
www.rediff.com/travel/whaton.htm - 41k - Mar 15, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Rediff On The NeT: What's On in Bombay
... satay, fish cutlets, chicken served on sugarcane sticks, chicken wrapped in banana
leaves, tofu on sticks, vegetable souffles, Thai moneybags, Thai spring rolls ...
www.rediff.com/travel/wobom.htm - 43k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Bloys Business Caterers - Catering in London
... Thai Seafood Dimsum, £ 1. 00. Thai moneybags, seafood in filo pastry,
prawn wontons, Mini Oriental Crab Cake, £ 1. 15. Thai Fish Cake, £ 1.
43. ...
www.bloys.co.uk/menusandpricesindian&oriental.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] LIGHT HORS D' OEUVRES
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... cream cheese served with raspberry jalapeno sauce California rolls (other sushi available)
Spring rolls or wontons, turkey shaomi or Thai moneybags served with ...
www.sdmaritime.com/uploads/lighthorsdoeuvres.pdf - Similar pages

[DOC] Beverages
File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
... Chicken Satay. Breaded Prawns. Vegetable Pakoras. Thai Moneybags. Onion bhajis.
Cantonese fried Chicken strips. Selection of dips. Fresh fruit. Cold Fork Buffets. ...
www.lsbu.ac.uk/catering/menus/1_1_hospitality-2004.doc - Similar pages

Continental Catering - Traditional Buffet
... cheese served with mango chutney * California rolls and other sushi available *
Spring rolls, dim sum, wontons, turkey shaomi or Thai moneybags served with ...
www.continentalcateringsd.com/menu8.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Continental Catering - Light Hors D'oeuvres
... California rolls (other sushi available). • Spring rolls, wontons,
or thai moneybags served with plum sauce and spicy peanut sauce. ...
www.continentalcateringsd.com/menu1.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

NuCulinary :: Classes & Registration
... Filipino Lumpia Mu Shu Pork with Chinese Pancakes Vietnamese Rice Paper Rolls Thai
“MoneyBags” (Minced Pork & Prawns wrapped in a Bean Curd Pastry Pouch ...
www.nuculinary.com/classes-uwajimaya.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Redwood Inn Menu
... Sticks Calzone served with Marinara Sauce Fresh Scallops Wrapped in Bacon Coconut
Shrimp Assorted Mini Quiche Vegetable Eggrolls Thai Moneybags served with ...
www.theredwoodinn.com/menu.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] PRIVATE PARTIES
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... and GRAND packages) Hearts of Artichoke with Boursin cheese Triple cheese stuffed
jalepanos Chicken with chilpolte poppers Thai moneybags Wild mushroom puffs ...
www.thecrookedlakehouse.com/parties2.pdf - Supplemental Result - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)(130 hits for "Thai money bags")
Baltimore Weddings: The Admiral Fell Inn
... Sodas and Juices (One bartender per 75 guests recommended at $150.00) Cocktail Reception
(Please select three) Spanikopita Thai Money Bags Quesadilla Trumpets ...
www.admiralfell.com/hotel/celebrate_02.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] Friday & Sunday WEDDING RECEPTION PACKAGE 4
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Beer, House S election of Wines, Sodas & Juic One bartender per 75 guests COCKTAIL
RECEPTION (Please select 3) Spa nikopita Thai Money Bags Quesadilla Trumpets ...
www.admiralfell.com/hotel/pdfs/friday_sunday.pdf - Similar pages
[ More results from www.admiralfell.com ]

[PDF] Campbell’s HORS D'OEUVRES MENU
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... and cheese. 50 pieces 93.00 100 pieces 180.00 Thai Money Bags - A
mix of shrimp and vegetables wrapped in a delicate pastry. Each ...
www.campbellsresort.com/images/pdfs/hor-s-d2003.pdf - Similar pages

Bhan Thai Restaurant
... TOONG TONG. Thai Money Bags. Minced chicken, Thai spices, wrapped in pastry,
deep-fried and served with a plum sauce. MOOPING. Pork Spare Ribs. ...
www.tmmuk.com/bhanthai/cuisine.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Receptions
... 3 crackers pp) $.85 Per Person Thai Money Bags (served hot) Crushed Shrimp in a
wonton skin served with an oriental dipping sauce (portion 3 pcs pp) $1.60 Per ...
www.middlebury.edu/offices/catering/receptions.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

:: The New Orleans Zephyrs Official Website :: Ovations Food ...
... AMOY APPETIZER PLATTER An assortment of Asian specialty items Spring rolls, shrimp
toast, wonton, crab ragoons Thai, money bags, Served with special Asian dips ...
www.zephyrsbaseball.com/ovations.shtml - 81k - Cached - Similar pages

The Palladium Restaurant: Reception/Cocktail Parties
... Sauce; Vegetarian Spring Rolls; Chicken, Red Pepper, Chipotle Tortilla
Roll Ups; Spinach Stuffed Mushrooms; Thai Money Bags with Shrimp. ...
www.palladiumrestaurant.com/reception.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Seattle Store's Cooking Classes - Uwajimaya
... Vietnamese Rice Paper Rolls. Thai "Money Bags" (Minced Pork & Prawns wrapped in a
Bean Curd Pastry Pouch). Indonesian Rice Flour Balls with Macadamia Nut Filling. ...
www.uwajimaya.com/cookingclasses_seattleschedule.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

Liang-I Shaolin 5 Animal Kung Fu Australia, Index
... Silk Road Selection, Indian Curry Puffs, Thai Money Bags; Assorted Mini Pies,
Curry Chicken, Vegetable, Pepper Steak, Lamb & Rosemary, Mini Party Pies; ...
www.shaolin.com.au/bday2003.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

banquet_menu.html
... House hors-d'oeuvres - A selection of mixed hors-d'oeuvres including some of the
following: pot stickers, Thai money bags, shrimp toast, jalapeño poppers ...
www.evansale.com/banquet_menu.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)(214 hits for "money bags" + "Chinese" + "vegetables")
(GOOGLE)(62 hits for "moneybags" + Chinese" + vegetables)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 01:24:31 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:24:31 -0500
Subject: Ficelle (1960)
Message-ID: 

(OED)("ficelle")
  1. In comb., as ficelle colour, the colour of pack-thread; ficelle-lace, string-coloured lace. Also ficelle-coloured adj.

  1882 Queen 22 July 94/1 No dress looked prettier than a thin canvas of dark ficelle colour. 1882 World 21 June 18/1 A white muslin trimmed with wide flouncings of ficelle lace. 1900 Westm. Gaz. 5 Feb. 2/1 Hat of ficelle-coloured straw. 1927 Observer 12 June 11/4 Ficelle coloured lace.

    2. A trick, artifice, (stage) device.

  1890 E. DOWSON Let. 8 June (1967) 152 There is more psychological motive in it and less of ‘ficelle’ which Bouthors objected to so in the ‘Diary’. 1894 W. ARCHER Theatr. ‘World’ 1893 xviii. 112, I..did not quite..believe in it, taking it rather as a mere ficelle. a1916 H. JAMES Art of Novel (1934) 322 Half the dramatist's art, as we well know, is in the use of ficelles. Ibid. 323 The ‘ficelle’ character of the subordinate party is..artfully dissimulated. 1920 G. MURRAY in H. G. Wells Outl. Hist. III. xvii. 107/1 True, raids on women were a real cause of war, but they were also a very favourite ficelle of fiction. 1968 Listener 26 Sept. 412/3 No Pucelle, Candy's a ficelle; and..her fate is to be briefly grabbed by a series of stereo~types.
---------------------------------------------------------------
FICELLE + BREAD--808 Google hits, 44 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE GROUPS)(NY TIMES article of last Wednesday)
Re: Taking the Artisan Out of Artisanal
... Kalamata olive bread in Kalamazoo? ... Foccacia, levain, ciabatta, ficelles — 10
years ago, who knew what a ficelle was?" said Sue Brooks, who is the bakery ...
alt.bread.recipes - Mar 10, 2004 by Roy Basan - View Thread (19 articles)


   English cuisine, French cuisine...everything in my spare time between parking tickets.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)("ficelle" + "bread")
Re: The $8 loaf of bread
A small baguette is called a ficelle; a double-thick baguette is called a batard ... As
another aside, the best bread at La Brea Bakery is the country white, which ...
la.eats - Oct 4, 1998 by Quodlibet9 - View Thread (18 articles)

Patonki (Re: Olisiko jollain vinkkejä etelä-Ranskasta?)
... ficelle [fee-SEHL] French for "twine" or "string," referring culinarily to a
long, very thin loaf of French bread, about half the size of a BAGUETTE. ...
sfnet.matkustaminen - May 20, 1998 by Matti Grönroos - View Thread (1 article)

Aches and Pains and the Sandwich that washed it away
... I mulled over the sandwiches and said, yes I'll have a tomato motz
(tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, on a ficelle bread with pesto). ...
rec.food.cooking - Jan 29, 1998 by maryf - View Thread (3 articles)

Our Recent Trip to Paris
... I would have been happy with just the Brouilly and some bread. ... I had the boeuf
a la ficelle (beef on a string), a "grandma dish" if ever there was one. ...
bit.listserv.travel-l - Oct 27, 1997 by David Hall - View Thread (3 articles)

Lemon Bread Recipes (3)
... Makes 1 loaf. Lemon Bread 1 pkg. dry yeast 2 Tab. ... Form the dough into a long,
thin ficelle. Allow to rise 1 1/4 times in volume, ab. 10 min. ...
rec.food.recipes - Jul 5, 1995 by JGruhn at aol.com - View Thread (1 article)

Re: Goat Cheese recipes needed!
... Jill: Very simple: French bread if available (baguette or even ficelle) or the best
substitute and a glass of Beaujolais or (if the bread and cheese deserve it ...
rec.food.cooking - Jun 6, 1995 by Guy Beaulieu - View Thread (8 articles)

Re: Yea! Spring has arrived.
... With croutons made from onion ficelle bread and a viniagrette composed of fruity
extra virgin olive oil, red wine vinegar, dijon mustard, chopped garlic, and a ...
rec.food.cooking - Apr 22, 1995 by ynnuf at yetti.wanganui.gen.nz - View Thread (5 articles)



(FACTIVA)(273 hits for "ficelle")
A KITCHEN ANTHOLOGY part 4
JANE GRIGSON
1,592 words
24 November 1982
The Globe and Mail
SB2
(...)
Nowadays, the French make bread from wholemeal. You find wholemeal bread with walnuts, rye bread, bran bread, five-cereal bread, etc. If you are looking for an appropriate kind to serve with a French meal, you will do better to make or buy this kind of loaf, rather than hope to achieve those inimitable sticks of white bread, the ficelle, the baguette and the pain de livre.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   French Bread Secret
By Art Buchwald. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1960. p. C8 (1 page):
   There are many types of French bread.  The very, very thin long loaf is called "la ficelle," which means the thread.  THe _ficelle_ is mostly crust with very little dough inside.  It naturally breaks very easily.  Because of its thinness the ends are very pointed, and it must be handled more like a rapier than a saber.
   The _ficelle_ is excellent sticking out of the car window when you want to make a right turn, and for pointing out places of interest to foreigners.
   The next size is "la baguette" (the stick) which is the most popular size.  The _baguette_ is carried like a rifle, the butt of the bread in the palm of your hand and the other end accross the shoulder.  When meeting your boss or your wife on the street, you present arms, holding the loaf vertically in front of you, six inches from the top and bottom.  In cases where people have suffered ski accidents it can also be used as a cane.
   It is bad form to twirl the _baguette_ or swing it like a baseball bat in the street.
   SHORTER than the _baguette_ and thicker is "le batard" (which means what you think it does).  The _batard_ is a cross between the _baguette_ and the "pain fantaisie" (fancy bread, which isn't very fancy).  The _batard_ is excellent for political demonstrations and carrying late at night in case of attack.
   The "gros pain" or big bread, is as long as the _baguette_ and as thick as the _batard_.  It is chiefly bought by large families, but, because it is so unwieldy, the mother sends all the children to buy it.  They usually carry it home like a ladder.

   The Enthusiasm of Snail Addict Helps Turn a Meal Into a Feast
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 23, 1968. p. 42 (1 page):
   From the oven, she retrieved a hot, homemade ficelle--a small, narrow loaf of bread--and spooned warm hollandaise that she'd fluff up a moment before over the snail dish.

   Cuisine de Femme: Tending the Fires; Cuisine de Femme: Tending the Fires of Tradition
By MIMI SHERATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1977. p. 40 (2 pages)

   A Soupcon Of Spring: Fresh Goat Cheeses
Florence Fabricant. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 10, 1982. p. C8 (1 page)

   Vive la Baguette: As French as Paris; Vive la Baguette
By PATRICIA WELLS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 9, 1983. p. XX6 (2 pages)


(No New York Public Library time right now to do better--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 01:49:56 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:49:56 EST
Subject: as ADJ of a N as
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 2/19/04 2:53:30 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> my experience is also that those who have only the "of"-less
> construction tend to notice occurrences of the "of" construction, to
> comment on them, and even to deride them, while those who are heavy
> (perhaps exclusive) users of the "of" construction simply don't notice
> instances of the "of"-less construction, and are often astonished to be
> told that they don't talk/write quite like many other people and that
> editors and teachers might even object to their usage.  this is a
> common pattern for nonstandard vs. standard variants.
> 

As one of the "of"-using folks, I agree with this to this extent: I have 
often noticed that others "leave out" the "of," but I tended to think this was 
just a styulistic variant of no consequence, like the presence or absence of "to" 
with "help" (e.g., "I need to help my brother to get his shoes on") or (in 
the South) with "have" (e.g., "Do you want me to have him to call you?" and 
"They almost had the ceiling to fall on their heads!"). I don't recall ever being 
derided for my of-fulness. I have no idea what my written practice is.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:10:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:10:05 -0500
Subject: Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? (1990)
Message-ID: 

MOUTH + KISS YOUR MOTHER--2,130 Google hits, 4,310 Google Groups hits
MOUTH + KISS YOUR FATHER--95 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits

   This is a popular line after someone spouts some of the slang we discuss here.  Maybe Jonathan Green has it.
   In various forms, such as "(Do) you kiss your mother with the same mouth?" and "(Do) you kiss your mother with that mouth?"  Sometimes "(Do) you (also) eat with that mouth?"
   It refers to a foul-mouthed man kissing his mother.  A foul-mouthed woman would kiss her father.  Fathers just don't get enough kisses, IMHO.



(FACTIVA)
Closer to Home
540 words
17 April 1992
The Milwaukee Journal
A2
(...)
Will the national television exposure of the Lawrencia Bembenek case (on ABC's "PrimeTime Live" Thursday) put even more pressure on the district attorney's office to move for a new trial? We hear that the Milwaukee County district attorney's office bought a copy of "Run, Bambi, Run," the authorized biography written by Kris Radish. (Note to the salty-tongued Judy Zess, former friend of Bambi who testified against her at the trial 10 years ago and who was interviewed by Diane Sawyer in her Texas home: Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?)


(PROQUEST)
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Hochman, David. Us Weekly. New York: Jun 1994. p. 29


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/20/1949  (REMEMBER, THIS IS 1994!--ed.)
...in junior high school Do you KISS YOUR MOTHER with that MOUTH? BLASTING RADIO.....It AT because I don't know any Al. Make YOUR fence shorter and plant pachysandra.....over 300 just because you can't control YOUR french fry addiction. CHEAP PERFUME..
Elyria, Ohio   Monday, June 20, 1949  528 k (1994!!--ed.)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: PLEASE HELP ME AGAIN!!!!!
... their mail spool. Nice mouth! You eat with that mouth? You kiss your
mother with that mouth? Toilet mouth! Brian =-->Name that tune ...
alt.flame - Dec 19, 1990 by Doug Fierro - View Thread (16 articles)

Re: Cleaning failing keyboard (classic mac)
... Such a mouth! Do you eat with that mouth? Do you kiss your mother with that
mouth? Toilet mouth! Here's hoping I don't hafta fix any keyboards. ...
comp.sys.mac.misc - Jul 26, 1990 by Brian Aslakson - View Thread (6 articles)

Salmon ch4
... Danny popped one in his mouth and threw his arms up in the air. ... br "But you kissed
him!" .br "Do you kiss your mother?" .br "Yes, but..." .br "Well, she's ...
alt.prose - May 9, 1990 by Robert-John Evans - View Thread (1 article)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Mar 16 02:10:59 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:10:59 -0600
Subject: Origin of John Kerry's last name
Message-ID: 

    My thanks to Michael Kirley (more details on Kerry's surname) and
Seán Fitzpatrick (bit of creative writing) for their e-mails, which
appear below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen


At 9:07 AM -0800 3/15/04, Michael Kirley wrote:
>Here is an article from the Boston Globe that provides further
>details on Kerry's surname:
>
>http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml


At 2:40 AM -0500 3/15/04, Sean Fitzpatrick wrote:
>And are we not supposed to notice Kohn . . . Cohen?-)
>
>I have a bit of fun with this story in my web log,
>http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/
>
>Seán Fitzpatrick
>Beer is good food


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:53:12 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:53:12 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20polygotry?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 2/19/04 9:45:01 AM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US 
writes:


> Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically 
> polygyny) in over a century. 
> 

Huh? Don't you read the newspapers? While it is true that the mainstream LDS 
church has given up nonmonogamous marriages since the admission of Utah to the 
Union, there are many people who consider themselves "Mormons," mostly living 
in the Western states, who enter into more than one marriage at a time, they 
just do it clandestinely. As I understand it, however, these marriages get no 
support whatsoever from the Church, and there is no apparent movement of any 
kind to change the present official policy. 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:56:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:56:09 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
Message-ID: 

FOOTBALL BAT--1,190 Google hits, 953 Google Groups hits

http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
Messed up as a football bat. (when something ain't quite right)

   This is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.  I found it on the above site.
   Baseball has a bat, of course--not football.
   Sometimes given as "queer/gay as a football bat."


(GOOGLE)
Life is something you do when you can't sleep.
"About as fucked up as a football bat." - Apr. 06, 2003 - 12:24 pm. Drunken logic
is pretty funny. I mean, it's funny until you wake up in the back yard. ...
sturge.diaryland.com/030406_15.html - 4k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Come Laugh with us
... Academy(n): modern school where football is taught. As screwed up as
a football bat. Avid golfers have a fairway look in their eyes. ...
www.jokesdigest.com/cgi-bin/jokepage1.cgi?jid=2519 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

ns: Your Voice Counts Forums - View Topic
... I gotta come clean you guys... I am as gay as a football-bat. Just kidding. ... Rough
smokers voice of mom* "That guy looks as gay as a football-bat". ...
www.ipetitions.com/ boards/viewtopic.php?topic=3792&forum=6&start=15 - 39k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Football Bat
... I started jerking off right on her bed and when she saw me said "don't do that"
My life has been as fucked up as a football bat probably because of family ...
alt.stories.incest - Apr 27, 2003 by invntrr - View Thread (1 article)

Re: TAN: Liquor
... Called a Dr. Pepper (which it tastes like). It will mess you up like
a football bat. *long silence* No kidding. A football bat. ...
rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan - Jul 13, 1998 by Leigh D. Butler - View Thread (46 articles)

Cute things they say (2 1/2 year old)
... day. He told me, "Travis hit me with a football bat". I said, "You
mean a baseball bat?" He replied, "No, it was a football bat". ...
misc.kids - Dec 30, 1991 by Dan Wright - View Thread (2 articles)

Fscked up as a football bat
Thank you to Mr. McEwan and to the city of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. Trev -- "I
think Trevor is an idot. Just the kind of robot President CLITton likes. ...
rec.sport.football.college - Feb 10, 2000 by Trevor Zion Bauknight - View Thread (1 article)

Sport Taglines
... ACADEMY(n): modern school where football is taught As screwed up as
a football bat. Avid golfers have a fairway look in their eyes. ...
rec.humor - Sep 5, 1997 by Zul - View Thread (1 article)

Re: Terrible tradegy
hahahaha, like my old man used to say; "Queer as a football bat" he didn't like
you much, did he? dude, you rock, i just laughed out loud... <3<3<3 thanks. ...
alt.music.mdfmk - Jun 30, 2002 by OmniBishop - View Thread (102 articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) (earliest citations)
Re: THE SUBJECT IS FEELINGS NOT RAPE (damnit!)
... So a woman is raped, and everyone says " You can expect terrible mental trauma,
and you are likely to be as fucked up as a football bat for years." Does this ...
soc.women - Sep 5, 1991 by Charles Parr - View Thread (20 articles)

Pure Oxygen
... - "Mr. Trepanier, you're about as useful as a left-handed football bat!"
- anon. Matthew Skinner skinner@ [ nessie | unicorn ].wwu.edu
sci.space - May 16, 1990 by Matthew Skinner - View Thread (1 article)


(FACTIVA)(First citation of 27, with most of them bad hits--ed.)
WOMEN FILE SEX CHARGES // ALLEGATIONS: Tomas Gotor III was fired in July 1993 because of complaints against him of harassment and discrimination
ELLIOT BLAIR SMITH: The Orange County Register
1,205 words
29 May 1994
The Orange County Register
MORNING
g14
(...)
"On one occasion during this time, you were interested in getting (a male employee's) file. You said ..., `Let's go out and find out if (he) is queer as a football bat. ... We've got to find a way to get these guys.' "


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 03:31:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:31:01 -0500
Subject: Shit/Shoot fire and save the matches (1961)
Message-ID: 

AND SAVE THE MATCHES--96 Google hits, 94 Google Groups hits

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "_shitefire_ n. (17C) a braggart, a boaster (lit. trans. of CACAFUEGO)."  No mention of matches.
   Walker Percy's THE MOVIEGOER is 1962, with a copyright of 1961.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: More dialect
My mother always said "Shit fire ...and save the matches". A painful
expression! Her father, who from what I can barely remember ...
alt.appalachian - Oct 4, 1993 by DBEAM at wvnvm.wvnet.edu - View Thread (9 articles)

Re: Heroes
... them). You mean it is *legal* for him to own .50 caliber tripod mounted
type machine guns? Cacafuego and save the matches! Chris ...
alt.callahans - Apr 9, 1993 by HC61000 - View Thread (92 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nothing?


(FACTIVA)(Scroll to bottom--ed.)
Tuna-ites dive into Fiesta
Diane Holloway
1,083 words
25 April 1993
Austin American-Statesman
FINAL
7

The residents of Greater Tuna, Texas running wild through a grocery store - now there's an advertising concept that deserves to become a reality!

Indeed, a couple of cross-dressing Austinites have taken over prime-time television, adding much-needed chuckles to the otherwise dreary prime-time programs.

The Houston-based Fiesta chain has taken advantage of Tuna-ites in a big way. More than a dozen different spots were filmed in New York featuring the popular characters created and performed by Joe Sears and Jaston Williams in the play Greater Tuna. The ads, in a weird and wonderful way, trumpet the arrival of Fiesta stores in the Austin area.

The spots feature Tuna's finest - the Tastee Kreme girls, Inita Goodwin and Helen Bedd; "smut snatchers" Vera Carp and Bertha Bumiller; chatty Aunt Pearl; and radio disc jockeys Arles and Thurston. The ads are so funny you don't realize you're being sold a bag of groceries.

"Do you boil it, fry it or stab it?" Vera wonders, peering into a bag of just-bought goodies.

"What is it?" asks Bertha, taking a peek herself.

"I don't know, but they sell it," Vera retorts.

In the same ad, Bertha brags that she's "saved enough money to get my hair done."

Fans of Greater Tuna have been delighted to see their favorite characters pop up, however briefly, several times a night. And Sears and Williams, who don't normally do commercials, have been delighted by their experience with Fiesta.

"They turned the camera on and let us play with the groceries," Sears said in a phone interview from Fort Worth, where he and Williams are starring in the play The Foreigner. "The Fiesta people approached us through our agents at the William Morris Agency in New York and made a very tempting offer.

"We made the stipulation that if we did it, it had to be with our brand of humor. They gave us a blanket to do anything we wanted to do, so Jaston started writing these loony ideas. They loved it from the beginning. Most of them were scripted, but there are 10-second drop-ins that were just improvisation. `I don't know, but they sell it' - that was an improv line."

Sears said his favorite spot is one Williams does as Vera.

"She says, `Spit fire and save the matches! There's nothin' that makes me madder than a secret I don't know about!' I laughed and laughed when I saw him do that," Sears said.


(FACTIVA)
FROM CULLALOE TO CULLOWHEE.
By Tom Hubbard.
2,173 words
13 June 1998
The Herald
31
(...)
I gave a hoot of chauvinistic delight when one of my students, Gina Broadway, traced her ancestry back to Fife. Ferociously anti-redneck and with a passion for archaeology, Gina is at the centre of a spirited group which hangs out in the library cafe. Raunchy, intellectual, they offer a refreshing alternative to the prevailing campus culture of competing pieties and anxious grade-chasing. Indeed Gina and her entourage have reversed our roles and made me their student of Appalachian phrase-making: "If God's willin' and the creek don't rise"; "Shit fire and save the matches"; "You're a stoopid man if you piss off a Southern woman of Scottish descent." I wouldn't dare.


(AMAZON.COM)
Season of the Machete by James Patterson (Author) (Mass Market Paperback)
 • Excerpt from page 52 "... sleep, maybe. Shit fire and save matches. Skip eatin' dinners altogether. Cut ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
Suzanne's Diary for Nicholas by James Patterson, Andrew Gross (Hardcover - July 2001)
 • Excerpt from page 31 "... a look. Shi ire and save matches. The right wheel was as ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
The Moviegoer by Walker Percy (Author) (Paperback)
 • Excerpt from page 147 "... chep. Chep. Silence. "Shtfire and save matches." Not ten feet below, two ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
Straight Life: The Story of Art Pepper by Art Pepper, Laurie Pepper (Paperback - April 1994)
 • Excerpt from page 91 "... "Tarnation!" and "Shit fire and save matches!" Hahahaha! Art is sensitive even ..."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 04:58:28 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:58:28 -0500
Subject: Boiled owl (1861); Hogan's goat (1925)
Message-ID: 

BOILED OWL

BOILED OWL--519 Google hits, 246 Google Groups hits

(OED)
 Intoxicated. slang. Also phr. as drunk as a boiled owl.
  [1885 Referee 31 May 3/3 Twiss..had just the boiled-owlish appearance that is gained by working all night in a printing-office.] 1886 J. A. PORTER Sks. Yale Life 156 There is a balm for a headache caused by last night's debauch to have it said you were ‘slightly cheered’ or ‘slewed’ or ‘boiled’. 1892 Daily Tel. 12 Dec. 5/4 The expression, ‘Intoxicated as a boiled owl’, is a gross libel upon a highly respectable teetotal bird. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 300 He brought him home as drunk as a boiled owl. 1928 Amer. Speech IV. 102 Expressions synonymous with or circumlocutory for ‘drunk’..blotto, boiled. 1940 ‘H. PENTECOST’ 24th Horse (1951) v. 45 He's boiled to the ears.

    Drunk as a boiled owl?
    Why?  Why an owl?  Why a boiled owl?
    Too much beer and Wise potato chips?


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   1. WAITING FOR DEAD MEN'S SHOES.
JESSIE MAY. Godey's Lady's Book and Magazine (1854-1882). New York: Sep 1857. p. 209 (5 pages)
Pg. 211:  And poor Henry exerted himself to the utmost of his strength to keep up with the vigorous old man, who declared himself as tough "as a boiled owl, and worth a score of your scientific gentlemen farmers."

   2. THE GREAT DAVIS DINNER ON THE FOURTH OF JULY.; BILL OF FARE. SOUPS. BOILED. ROAST. ENTREMETS. DESSERT.
Vanity Fair (1859-1863). New York: Jun 29, 1861. Vol. 3, Iss. 79; p. 297 (1 page):
   Boiled Owls with Corn Whiskey.

   3. OUR WAR CORRESPONDENCE.
McARONE. Vanity Fair (1859-1863). New York: Oct 18, 1862. Vol. 6, Iss. 147; p. 184 (1 page):
   But the history of genius is the history of intoxication. (...)
   Owing to circumstances over which I don't seem to have much of any control just now, I shall close.  Did you ever see a Boiled Owl?

   4. A Humorous Glance at the Temperance Question.
GEORGE W BUNGAY. Herald of Health (1864-1892). New York: Sep 1867. Vol. 10, Iss. 3; p. 103 (2 pages)
Pg. 104:  "Drunk as a beast" is a common saying; but what beast gets drunk?  The ass is a stupid animal, but it is a sober one, and he who drinks to intoxication need not laugh at its redundancy of ear.  "Drunk as an owl--as a boiled owl," is a maxim which has been so often in the mouths of drunkards that it has the odor or rum.  WHat does it signify?  THe owl is a feathered cat which can see in the dark; but the drunkard, when drunk, can not see at any time well enough to distinguish the town pump from his next-door neighbor.  THe owl is a brother of the quill, who earns his daily food by working at night; but the drunkard spends the earnings of others for that which is not bread, and for that which satisfieth not.  The owl never drinks alcohol; it never turns Mrs. Owl and the little Owls out of their nest; it never comes home on reeling wings, although it keeps late hours; it never changes its "tu-whit-to-hoo" for profane speech; it never neglects to make ample provision for its family; it never mistakes the eagle's nest for its own.  Then why calumniate that bird by making such foul comparisons?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Bismarck Daily Tribune - 12/23/1874
...with your eyes open. Now, I was drunk is k BOILED OWL, drunk when I enlisted, drunk when..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, December 23, 1874  646 k
Pg. 3?, col. 3:
   "But, by George, wasn't you sober?" responded the other with much feeling; "What a precious fool you must have been to run into this with your eyes open.  Now, I was _drunk_, drunk as a boiled owl, drunk when I enlisted, drunk when I took the oath, and drunk when I got here,--and made drunk, too, for that very purpose, by that rascally thief of a Sergeant who brought us here.
Sandusky Daily Register - 8/5/1889
...this morning. '-Dull was drunker than a BOILED OWL, and when the couple reached..
Sandusky, Ohio   Monday, August 05, 1889  1056 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 12/9/1899
...In the morning he awoke feeling like a BOILED OWL with insomnia. And now you couldn..
Newark, Ohio   Saturday, December 09, 1899  668 k

Bluefield Daily Telegraph - 5/19/1901
...fie is drunk an .1 lord, driink as a BOILED OWL, drunk :is a liddler'd bitch..
Bluefield, West Virginia   Sunday, May 19, 1901  372 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOGAN'S GOAT

HOGAN'S GOAT--1,890 Google hits,  2,760 Google Groups hits

http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
F$#&ed up as Hogan's goat (In a very bad way)


   DARE has 1955 (Funk _Heavens to Betsy_) for "Hogan's goat."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
WASHINGTON BEST AT NEW ORLEANS, SAYS COLLYER; Gus R. Called Sleeper in Second St. Donard Nominated as a Good Hazard Play in Third. Expert Picks The Beau as Juicy Morsel of Fourth Race.
By BERT E. COLLYER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 2, 1925. p. 18 (1 page):
   WASHINGTON--George, the Father of His COuntry, never told a lie, according to historians.  Johnny Hogan is training the chestnut son of Ballot.  So confident is Hogan of victory, however, that he wired the inhabitants of San Juan Hill to wager the sands on the hill and adds: "Don't forget my bit."  Hogan claims to have won $325,000 on Saturday and hoped to make a cool million when the David representative gets home in front.  Regardless of what Mr. Hogan--not Hogan's goat--thinks about the fifth spasm at Jefferson Park, I'll tell the world that this racer is a running fool in his present form and if he fails to collect the coin it will be time to throw the dope books out of the window for the remainder of the season.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sheboygan Press - 1/8/1932
...Pupils of third and fourth grades. Old HOGAN'S GOAT Boys of fifth and sixth grades..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin   Friday, January 08, 1932  779 k
Pg. 6, col. 2:
   Old Hogan's Goat--Boys of fifth and sixth grades.
   2. The Once Over; Business Opportunity
By H.I. Phillips. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 9, 1940. p. 11 (1 page):
   "The fans will love it.  They don't know a thoroughbred from Hogan's goat. ..."


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 07:39:50 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
Message-ID: 

Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 08:29:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:29:10 EST
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
Message-ID: 

   Geriatrics?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 08:54:04 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:54:04 EST
Subject: Weber "skunks" the Chicago Tribune on "Windy City"
Message-ID: 

(www.chicagotribune.com)
Published March 11, 2004

Dear Tom,

Does the "Windy City" expression really come from a New York reporter's quip
during the pre-Columbian Exposition competition of words?

Carl Jeffrey Weber

Dear Carl,

You're very close. The earliest published use of "Windy City" in reference to
Chicago came from Charles Dana in 1893. Dana, then the editor of the New York
Sun, had grown weary of hearing Chicagoans boast of the huge success of
Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition. He dubbed Chicago "that Windy City" in
an editorial--and the nickname stuck. The Exposition was immensely
successful: It attracted 27 million visitors that summer, almost half of the total U.S.
population at that time. With an average wind speed of 10.4 m.p.h., Chicago
ranks #76 among 255 U.S. cities and locations whose winds are measured by the
National Weather Service.

----------

Tom Skilling is chief meteorologist at WGN-TV. His forecasts can be seen
Monday through Friday on WGN News at noon and 9 p.m.

Write to: ASK TOM WHY, 2501 Bradley Place, Chicago, IL 60618 or
asktomwhy at wgntv.com (Mail volume precludes personal response.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
    SKUNKED!
    Carl Weber runs www.orionjeweb.com and has posted here on the origin of
the name "Chicago."  He asked the question, but he knew the answer.
    Chicago still doesn't.  This is sad.


From MartinezE at COFC.EDU  Tue Mar 16 14:37:20 2004
From: MartinezE at COFC.EDU (Martinez-Gibson, Elizabeth A.)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:37:20 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Please let me know where to send the abstract.
 
Thank you, Liz

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Michael Adams 
	Sent: Sat 3/13/2004 4:42 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
	
	

	Dear Colleagues,
	
	I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd.  I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program.  If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible.  MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month.  Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1.
	
	Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list.
	
	Thanks so much!
	
	Michael
	


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 16 15:23:03 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:23:03 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: <66C82538.518605F9.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:56 PM -0500 3/15/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>FOOTBALL BAT--1,190 Google hits, 953 Google Groups hits
>
>http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
>Messed up as a football bat. (when something ain't quite right)
>
>    This is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF
>SLANG.  I found it on the above site.
>    Baseball has a bat, of course--not football.
>    Sometimes given as "queer/gay as a football bat."
>

The earliest example of this type I know of is the Latin adverb "ad
kalendas Graecas" ('at/on the Greek calends'), meaning 'never', as
the Greeks (unlike the Romans) did not use calends to reckon time.

larry horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 15:40:46 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:40:46 -0800
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 15, 2004, at 11:39 PM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
> 20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
> hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
> "crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

not at all new, but "(old) trolls" has been common among gay men for a
long time (for older gay men, where "older" might start at 40 or even
earlier).  a gay bar whose clientele is mostly trolls (the Midnight Sun
in the castro, for example) is sometimes known as a "wrinkle room", but
i've never heard "wrinklies" for trolls.  "gerries" is also new to me.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 15:50:01 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:50:01 EST
Subject: new saying
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:43 EST, Barry Popik via
LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU quotes:

> Yeah, we Broncs are a ...
>  bit.listserv.skeptic

I do not know why Broncs should be skeptical of listservs, but apparently
they are.

         - James A. Landau


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 17:10:45 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:10:45 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: <83AA4971-73BC-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, i noted that:

> ... some analogies are
> hugely more likely than others.  the analogies normally tap into the
> morphological regularities of the language.

and went to consider the past participle of a verb with base form
"stride" and past tense form "strode":

> ,,,once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are
> then
> four possible analogies giving a past participle:
>
> 1.  pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven)
> 2.  pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken)
> 3.  pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found)
> 4.  pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven)
>
> the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar
> with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
> "strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
> verbs with any great frequency...

this last bit is significantly wrong; i should have listened to my own
observation (above) about the importance of morphological regularities.
  the fact is that though item-by-item analogy does occur, a  great many
of the forms described as "analogical" are in fact just regularizations
-- the extension of morphological regularities to new items.

one of the great regularities in english verb forms is that the past
tense and past participle are usually identical; this is true for all
completely regular verbs and for a great many that exhibit various
subregularities or irregularities.  it follows that once you've
registered "strode" as the past tense, the expectation will be that the
past participle is also "strode".  so analogy #3 above should have *a
lot* going for it, even if there are no items with this pattern that
are phonologically similar to "stride".  (phonological similarity is
what gives some life to the item-by-item analogy in #4.)

analogy #3 is the one favored by michael quinion and john baker in
recent postings to the list, and they provide examples from printed
works and google searches to show that this option has often been
taken, indeed more often taken than #4 -- results that really shouldn't
be surprising, given the past/pastparticiple generalization.

(quinion notes that fowler and garner both recommend "stridden".  this
is not exactly a  surprise, since prescriptive grammarians have a
tendency to value irregularities over regular forms, probably on the
belief that irregular forms are usually older -- this is by no means
always the case, by the way -- and that the more regular forms are
*simplifications* of the historical system, simplifications resulting
from the failure of speakers to learn all the complexities of their
language.  that is, they tend to see regular forms as errors of
ignorance.)

baker mentions also the possibility of "strid".  the only way i can see
for past participle "strid" to arise is if the *past* of "stride" has
been reshaped to "strid" (perhaps on analogy to "hide" - "hid"); then,
by the past/pastparticiple generalization, the past participle should
follow along (or be "stridden", continuing the analogy with "hide").  i
believe that past "strid" is attested (i'm away from my sources right
now).  i *know* that past "chid" for "chide" is attested (in john
newton's 1779 text for a hymn in the Sacred Harp shapenote book i sing
from).  i suspect that there are even attestations for "rid" as the
past of "ride" and "driv" as the past of "drive", and perhaps others of
this very minor pattern.  you'd expect such occurrences to be rare, of
course -- and past participles showing this pattern to be even rarer,
since past participle forms are a lot less frequent than past forms,
period.

but let me emphasize again that this discussion isn't about what the
past participle of "stride" *ought to be*.  all of the following
patterns are certainly attested:
   stride - strided - strided
   stride - strode - strode
   stride - strode - stridden
and other patterns might also be attested.  if you've learned that the
past tense form is "strode", then essentially you're faced with a
competition between "strode" (which follows the past/pastparticiple
generalization) and "stridden" (which is supported by items
phonologically similar to "stride").  in the absence of clear models
from other speakers -- the verb is rare, past participles are rare, and
there is variation in the few instances you might hear -- you might
well just avoid the form entirely.  which is what lots of people do.
if you settle on "strode", that's fine.  if you settle on "stridden",
that's fine too.  maybe some day one or the other of these forms will
catch on and spread throughout parts of the english-speaking world, but
that hasn't happened yet.  (maybe "stride" will get completely
regularized.  that sort of thing has been known to happen.)  at the
moment, there are (at least) two alternatives, and many people are
comfortable with neither of them.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 18:47:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:47:06 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
Message-ID: 

from a poster on the newsgroup soc.motss, about the No Child Left
Behind act (in a thread named after my new granddaughter!):
   How whack is that?

this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
like the following, from google searches:
   Elite Force is totally whack.
   That night I had a really whack dream.
and by its ability to coordinate with adjectives:
   ...noticed how WHACK, CORNY, and OBVIOUS everybody is...

unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
this lexical item "whacked".)  the semantics of "whacked " is
presumably an extension from the contact-verb sense, perhaps influenced
by the phonologically similar "wacky" (which is itself probably
originally "whacky", possibly related to "out of whack"), and/or by the
slang "whacked out".  or maybe the adjective "whack" comes directly
from the noun "whack" of "out of whack" (presumably a nominalization of
the contact verb), though that wouldn't explain the fact that the
adjectives "whack" and "whacked" have almost the same range of meanings
and syntactic contexts.

(along the way i discovered the site urbandictionary.com, which bills
itself as "a slang dictionary with *your definitions*".  for "this is
whack", users had supplied the meanings "messed up, un[u]sual, more
fucked up than usual".)

some issues and observations:

1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
an unusual loss of final /t/.  well, yes, it follows a consonant, in
fact a stop, which is a high-frequency context for the famous
t/d-deletion.  but the /t/ loss would seem to have been lexicalized
here, and not in otherwise parallel forms  like "fucked": "That's
really fucked" might be pronounced in fast, casual speech without its
/t/, but i don't see any evidence of lexicalization here, in written
versions like "That's really fuck."

ok, lexicalization is often sporadic, and maybe that's all there is to
say here.

2.  a pretty large number of occurrences of adjective "whack" are in a
few formulas:
   That would be whack!
   How whack!
and the rhetorical question i started with above:
   How whack is that?

it *might* be that the adjective extended from a few fixed phrases like
these.  has anyone looked at its development, by dating occurrences?
(i have no idea how long it's been around, since i've just started
looking at it.)

3.  like a good colloquial adjective, "whack" has (unsuffixed)
adverbial uses:
   ...I realized how whack and wrong we did it...

there are a few occurrences of adverbial "whackly", both as a V(P)
adverbial --
   [rap]  ...you diss so whackly only reason ya lines go over my head
     is 'cause they miss so badly!!
   ...some whackly pronounced Japanese phrase you've picked up...
  and as a simply adadjectival modifier --
   ...wow 6flags yesterday was whackly insane...

i'll bet there are people with adjective "whack" who reject "whackly".
i myself am getting into "whack", but "whackly" is still out of range
for me.

4.  in fact, the adnominal uses of "whack" strike me as much less
felicitous than the predicative uses; the following attested examples
are something of a stretch for me:
   The kid went on a really whack trip; he thought he was doing something
     righteous and it all went awry...
   ...whoever lives here has a really whack sense of reality...

if the earliest uses of adjective "whack" were predicative, this would
make sense: people could pick it up only in predicative uses (there
are, after all, predicative-only adjectives), or they could extend it
to adnominal uses.  in which case, there should be people who accept
the predicative uses but not the adnominal ones (but not vice versa).

5.  "whack" can be predicated either of inanimates (circumstances,
situations, objects)  --
   ...know exactly how whack it is to be a "TURK".
   ...just how whack it is to smoke pot...
   ...how whack is that shit?
   Crack is whack.  [Whitney Houston]
   Why Psychology is Whack
or persons --
   ...any hypothesized claim on just how whack I am...
   ...we must be whack!

6.  i've found a few occurrences that don't seem to fit in the usual
semantic range for adjective "whack".  in particular, there are some
apparently positive uses, like the following, which seems to have been
intended as praise:
   ...Sunspot Jonz adds a really whack beat...

now, this could be semantic inversion (like "baaad' 'excellent').  or
it could be a separate "whack", related to the positive modifier
"whack-ass", as in:
   ...putting subscriptions in a really whack-ass folder...

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 18:56:05 2004
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:56:05 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20whack=20'whacked'?=
Message-ID: 

Is "whack" not the same as "wack," which has been common among
African-Americans for many years? There is a famous piece of graffiti art in Harlem that has
been in place for 20 years, that reads "Crack is wack."



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Mar 16 19:07:00 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:07:00 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <52E0A8DD-777A-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> like the following, from google searches:

Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
black America. Both spellings are still around.

--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Oxford University Press

American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Mar 16 19:53:23 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:53:23 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <1AAF23C4-777D-11D8-9D24-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:07:00PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
> On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> >this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> >language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> >note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> >like the following, from google searches:
>
> Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
> 1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
> black America. Both spellings are still around.

The famous Keith Haring "Crack is Wack" mural in Harlem,
which someone else mentioned, is from 1986. There's a
_wack_ in a 1986 Salt N Pepa song as well. I don't have
any materials handy but I'm pretty sure it's a few years
earlier still.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Mar 16 20:08:39 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:08:39 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

This seems like a variation on the theme of "queer as a three-dollar
bill."  I'd never heard it with substitutions such as "gay as a three-
dollar bill" or "fucked up as a three-dollar bill,"  though.

Joanne




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Mar 16 20:15:27 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:15:27 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: <40571877.2015.898DB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

Oops, sorry!  I meant to say "messed up."  Been watching too
many Sopranos episodes, I'm afraid.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Mar 16 21:09:32 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:09:32 -0800
Subject: polygotry
Message-ID: 

Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these arrangements are not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
Fritz Juengling

>>> RonButters at AOL.COM 03/15/04 06:53PM >>>
In a message dated 2/19/04 9:45:01 AM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically
> polygyny) in over a century.
>

Huh? Don't you read the newspapers? While it is true that the mainstream LDS
church has given up nonmonogamous marriages since the admission of Utah to the
Union, there are many people who consider themselves "Mormons," mostly living
in the Western states, who enter into more than one marriage at a time, they
just do it clandestinely. As I understand it, however, these marriages get no
support whatsoever from the Church, and there is no apparent movement of any
kind to change the present official policy.


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 22:09:18 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:09:18 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Dear Liz,

Send the ADS/MLA abstract to this address.  Many thanks in advance for your contribution.

Yours,

Michael


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 22:12:29 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:12:29 -0500
Subject: Apologies
Message-ID: 

Sorry for the previous message, meant to be sent off list.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 23:32:54 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:32:54 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <20040316195323.GA10261@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:07:00PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>>> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera
>>> of
>>> language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack"
>>> --
>>> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in
>>> examples
>>> like the following, from google searches:
>>
>> Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
>> 1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
>> black America. Both spellings are still around.

*very* much in use, and now by huge numbers of people who aren't
african american or particularly close to african american culture.

> The famous Keith Haring "Crack is Wack" mural in Harlem,
> which someone else mentioned, is from 1986. There's a
> _wack_ in a 1986 Salt N Pepa song as well. I don't have
> any materials handy but I'm pretty sure it's a few years
> earlier still.

well, these first responses, by grant barrett, steve boatti, and jesse
sheidlower at least suggest where to look for early occurrences.  my
questions about the details of the history and usage remain, of course.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 17 00:02:51 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:02:51 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
Message-ID: 

I could supply a 1984 article on NY break dancers, which lists some of their
lingo.  It's in Newspaperarchive.

"wack=bad"

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 01:35:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:35:29 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <52E0A8DD-777A-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
>derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
>slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
>with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>this lexical item "whacked".)

I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be that
this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
"stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the underlying
"jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate "wank[er]"
(originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The ultimate
etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]

The novelty might be the predicative use (as well as the loss of "off" ...
or is/was "whack" commonly used alone in some regions or milieux [like
"wank" apparently is in England])?

>1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
>an unusual loss of final /t/.

I would speculate that this /t/-loss did not occur, and that the earlier
version was "whack[off]" [adj.] = "jack-off" meaning roughly
"stupid"/"contemptible".

Just an idle thought.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:46:21 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:46:21 -0500
Subject: stridden
Message-ID: 

"Strode" has a certain poetic consonance -- a kind of vigor -- with the
image of striding that "stridden" totally lacks.
I don't think the authority of the /ride/ & /hide/ models can overcome the
inappropriate _feeling_ of "stridden."  "Stridden" suggests tripping along,
altogether the wrong image.
 A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 01:42:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:42:29 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>    Geriatrics?

I surely do believe so. The expanded form of this "gerry" is probably
"geriatric case".

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:46:41 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:46:41 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20whack=20'whacked'?=
Message-ID: 

On a hunch, I tried a Google search for "How suck is that?" 

I found three pages of solid examples.

Sample: "I like your attitude..
That war was an excuse for getting oil. I think Bush wanted to continue his 
father policy. How suck is that. I wonder why nobody had done anything with 
iraq for the last few years and all of a sudden a total nation comes up against 
it. USA is weird. But thats ok, My country isnt better.."


In a message dated 3/16/04 1:49:26 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> from a poster on the newsgroup soc.motss, about the No Child Left
> Behind act (in a thread named after my new granddaughter!):
>    How whack is that?
> 
> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> like the following, from google searches:
>    Elite Force is totally whack.
>    That night I had a really whack dream.
> and by its ability to coordinate with adjectives:
>    ...noticed how WHACK, CORNY, and OBVIOUS everybody is...
> 
> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
> this lexical item "whacked".)  the semantics of "whacked " is
> presumably an extension from the contact-verb sense, perhaps influenced
> by the phonologically similar "wacky" (which is itself probably
> originally "whacky", possibly related to "out of whack"), and/or by the
> slang "whacked out".  or maybe the adjective "whack" comes directly
> from the noun "whack" of "out of whack" (presumably a nominalization of
> the contact verb), though that wouldn't explain the fact that the
> adjectives "whack" and "whacked" have almost the same range of meanings
> and syntactic contexts.
> 
> (along the way i discovered the site urbandictionary.com, which bills
> itself as "a slang dictionary with *your definitions*".  for "this is
> whack", users had supplied the meanings "messed up, un[u]sual, more
> fucked up than usual".)
> 
> some issues and observations:
> 
> 1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
> an unusual loss of final /t/.  well, yes, it follows a consonant, in
> fact a stop, which is a high-frequency context for the famous
> t/d-deletion.  but the /t/ loss would seem to have been lexicalized
> here, and not in otherwise parallel forms  like "fucked": "That's
> really fucked" might be pronounced in fast, casual speech without its
> /t/, but i don't see any evidence of lexicalization here, in written
> versions like "That's really fuck."
> 
> ok, lexicalization is often sporadic, and maybe that's all there is to
> say here.
> 

> 2.  a pretty large number of occurrences of adjective "whack" are in a
> few formulas:
>    That would be whack!
>    How whack!
> and the rhetorical question i started with above:
>    How whack is that?
> 
> it *might* be that the adjective extended from a few fixed phrases like
> these.  has anyone looked at its development, by dating occurrences?
> (i have no idea how long it's been around, since i've just started
> looking at it.)
> 
> 3.  like a good colloquial adjective, "whack" has (unsuffixed)
> adverbial uses:
>    ...I realized how whack and wrong we did it...
> 
> there are a few occurrences of adverbial "whackly", both as a V(P)
> adverbial --
>    [rap]  ...you diss so whackly only reason ya lines go over my head
>      is 'cause they miss so badly!!
>    ...some whackly pronounced Japanese phrase you've picked up...
>   and as a simply adadjectival modifier --
>    ...wow 6flags yesterday was whackly insane...
> 
> i'll bet there are people with adjective "whack" who reject "whackly".
> i myself am getting into "whack", but "whackly" is still out of range
> for me.
> 
> 4.  in fact, the adnominal uses of "whack" strike me as much less
> felicitous than the predicative uses; the following attested examples
> are something of a stretch for me:
>    The kid went on a really whack trip; he thought he was doing something
>      righteous and it all went awry...
>    ...whoever lives here has a really whack sense of reality...
> 
> if the earliest uses of adjective "whack" were predicative, this would
> make sense: people could pick it up only in predicative uses (there
> are, after all, predicative-only adjectives), or they could extend it
> to adnominal uses.  in which case, there should be people who accept
> the predicative uses but not the adnominal ones (but not vice versa).
> 
> 5.  "whack" can be predicated either of inanimates (circumstances,
> situations, objects)  --
>    ...know exactly how whack it is to be a "TURK".
>    ...just how whack it is to smoke pot...
>    ...how whack is that shit?
>    Crack is whack.  [Whitney Houston]
>    Why Psychology is Whack
> or persons --
>    ...any hypothesized claim on just how whack I am...
>    ...we must be whack!
> 
> 6.  i've found a few occurrences that don't seem to fit in the usual
> semantic range for adjective "whack".  in particular, there are some
> apparently positive uses, like the following, which seems to have been
> intended as praise:
>    ...Sunspot Jonz adds a really whack beat...
> 
> now, this could be semantic inversion (like "baaad' 'excellent').  or
> it could be a separate "whack", related to the positive modifier
> "whack-ass", as in:
>    ...putting subscriptions in a really whack-ass folder...
> 
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
> 
> 


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:54:46 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:54:46 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20polygotry?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/16/04 4:07:49 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these arrangements are
> not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
> Fritz Juengling
>

With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that people
cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:08:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:08:07 EST
Subject: Nerd (1954)
Message-ID: 

(OED)(revised December 2003)
nerd
slang (orig. U.S.). derogatory. [Origin uncertain and disputed (see below).
  Perh. < nerd, a fictional animal in the children's story If I ran the Zoo 
(1950) by ‘Dr. Seuss’, depicted as a small, unkempt, humanoid creature with a 
large head and a comically disapproving expression. Alternatively, sometimes 
explained as a euphemistic alteration of TURD n. (see e.g. D. L. Gold in 
Comments on Etymol. (1983) 12 27), although given the predominance of early 
spellings in -e-, this seems unlikely. The suggestion that the word is back-slang for 
DRUNK n. is also unsupported by the spellings, as is derivation from the name 
of Mortimer Snerd, a dummy used by the U.S. ventriloquist Edgar Bergen in the 
1930s (see e.g. J. E. Lighter Hist. Dict. Amer. Slang (1977) s.v. Nerd).]     
An insignificant, foolish, or socially inept person; a person who is boringly 
conventional or studious. Now also: spec. a person who pursues an 
unfashionable or highly technical interest with obsessive or exclusive dedication. 
 
  1951 Newsweek 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip 
or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd. 1957 Sunday Mail (Glasgow) 10 Feb. 
11 Nerda square. 1971 Observer 23 May 36/3 Nerds are people who don't live 
meaningful lives. 1983 Truck & Bus Transportation July 129/1 When loose-brained 
nurds crack up the top arrangements of a man o' my calibre, I got no union t' 
thump them nurds with. 1993 Sci. Amer. Apr. 96/1 ‘Nerd’..is movie shorthand for 
scientists, engineers and assorted technical types who play chess, perhaps, 
or the violin. 2002 Chicago Tribune 20 Jan. IV. 7/1 Among Silicon Valley nerds, 
chip engineers..are the geekiest of all.
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
  
   Another "nerd."
  
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 2/8/1954   
...it's stoned. And the same goes for the NERDS and oddballs who think is 
real cool for.....Sometimes one wonders where it will end. TEEN TALKS By VIVIAN 
BROWN AP Let's spin the.....boy is a cat. Cats who lack grey matter are NERDS 
or'oddballs. There's no better way to.....better get with it. Times are 
changing, and TEEN-aged slangsters are the first to let you..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, February 08, 1954  786 k    
Pg. 9, col. 5:
_TEEN TALKS_
   By VIVIAN BROWN
   AP Newsfeatures
(Same article as below--ed.)
  

Newport Daily News - 2/11/1954  
...it's stoned. And the same goes for the NERDS and oddballs who think 
"George" is real.....boy is a cat. Cats who lack grey matter are NERDS or oddballs. 
There's no better way to..
Newport, Rhode Island   Thursday, February 11, 1954  517 k        
_Lingo of Denver Teen-Agers Leaves_
_The Square Very Much In The Dark_
   _AP Newsfeatures_
Pg. 18, col. 1:
   And the same goes for the nerds and oddballs who think "George is real 
cool for "cool."
  
Pg. 18, col. 2::
   Cats who lack grey matter are nerds or oddballs.
   There's no better way to identify yourself as a nerd than be saying 
something is "George."  Cat, what you mean is "cool." 


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 02:12:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:12:35 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

How does one explain "dive/dove/dived"? [not my paradigm BTW]

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:16:28 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:16:28 EST
Subject: That is so dick!
Message-ID: 

Here are the results of a Google search for "That is so dick!"

"That is so fuck!" turned up only one example, and I couldn't read it because
the blog would not open.

==================
I can't interface with my friends when I want to vent, or when they want to,
and I can't return the favor. It costs me money and time, and that is so dick
of me. And thinking this way is making me cranky and emotionally unbalanced.
My social life has come to an absolute halt.

http://www.agendacide.com/minutes/archives/000495.php

==============================================================

love is suicide
     by myke on 04.05.02
... so, today is already awful... i like woke up thinking it was like 11 but
it was actually 8... i didn't want to get up that early... i really just
wanted to make this day as short as possible... i had one of "those" talks with
jenn last night and she basically made me want to cry... she's been leading me on
and i didn't know that's what she was doing... i was like "well why have you
been like constantly touching me and wanting to be all over me?" and all she
could say was just "i dunno, i just missed it"... that is so dick... and then i
got upset because jenn is heartless and didn't even care about what she had
done to me and i got mad and hung up on her and smashed my phone into a million
little pieces by throwing it on my balcony... i just wanted to cry but there
were people at my place last night so i just had to suck it up... well, no
sense sitting here feeling bad for myself... hopefully i'll be going out tonight
with this girl jamie... i guess we'll just play it by ear...

http://www.halfwaytheresucks.com/journal/03.htm

===============================================


2003-11-16 08:48:05


Joe the Asshole


Last night after my last entry, I went over to Becca's
place because I was bored and her and Joe asked to come
hang out over at my place so I said sure. And there was no
weirdness between Joe and I but I didn't want to think
about us having sex and long story short, I went to bed
and left those two out there and next thing I know, this
morning Becca is calling me saying that Joe left last
night when she was passed out and she had noticed that
last night he was in Patty's room (none of my roommates
are here this weekend) and he was looking through stuff.
So I'm mad Becca didn't say anything to him, but her
excuse was that she was just so drunk and this morning she
had to wake up early and walk home to take the Praxis
test. And so I went to Patty's room and noticed that Joe
had taken her bottle of Darvocets and that is so dick. ...

http://www.my-diary.org/read/body.phtml?entry=539532565

======================================================


Debbie: Was it too dirty for you, Q,
2002-08-10 - 9:44 p.m.

Hey All What's Up


I'm in Rochester, NY right now. I'm hanging out at my aunt's right now for a
few days and then I go back up to Buffalo.


Wizarped on Wednesday. I can't wait.


Yo as much as I love it here in NY, I can't wait to get back to Tally. So
much fun there.


Actually that's not the reason. Mary Beth will be back in Tally. It's weird
now. I never used to be like this. If I even start to think about I get all
sick to my stomach. Not in a bad way though. Like I miss seeing her kinda a way.
Ugghh this all sucks.


I think I need to ask her out before I give myself an ulcer or something.


Lets see. I'm trying to get high as all hell but, it is really not working.
Like it's not the first time I've ever smoked but, I smoked so much yesterday.
Like me and my friends did a blunt, like 5 joints, and 3 or 4 bowls and I
still got nada. They told me it was good stuff too. They said they were fucked up
but not me.


I felt a little something actually. I was sitting in this kids beanbag chair
next to his big ass speakers. For a while I felt a little like I was floating
on the vibrations but, that was minimal and thats the only out of ordinary
feeling I got.


Greg called me ball-less. Haha


Lol thats funny.


Yo lots o people have been coming to my website from gregs. I can check on my
sitemeter. Man greg you best hope nobody I know is comin over or I'll do ...


absolutly nothing. You could whoop me any day of the week. Plus I'm a
pacifist.


I watched this show that was like a reverse View. It had a ll guys talking.
They were talking about women and journals. One of the guys talks about how he
would read his wifes journal at all cost. I think that is so dick. ...

http://crazy-ol-tom.diaryland.com/020810_82.html

================================================


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar 17 02:26:50 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:26:50 -0800
Subject: polygotry
In-Reply-To: <200403161754.1b3qgO7II3NZFl50@vulture>
Message-ID: 

>...These people who practice these arrangements are
>  > not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
>>  Fritz Juengling
>>
>
>With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that people
>cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.

Yeah, but it happens all the time.  This is where one has to take
control of how one is defined.  A most prominent example at the
moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.  Perhaps if more of the
"moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
would not be hijacked by the terrorists.

Rima


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:47:18 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:47:18 EST
Subject: linguistic tolerance
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/16/04 9:27:25 PM, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes:


> ... one has to take
> control of how one is defined.  A most prominent example at the
> moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.  Perhaps if more of the
> "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
> would not be hijacked by the terrorists.
> 
> Rima
> 
I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do, exactly, to 
"reclaim the name" of Islam; moreover, the idea of "reclaiming" a name that one 
has (in one's own view) never lost is not very attractive. In the end, it is 
not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior. 

It has always seemed to me an unhappy turn of events when self-proclaimed 
"Christians" make pronouncements that exclude other self-proclaimed Christians 
from the fold, rather than discussing the differences in beliefs that separate 
them. The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own use is a 
kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Wed Mar 17 03:28:17 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:28:17 -0600
Subject: linguistic tolerance
In-Reply-To: <200403170247.i2H2lRDV028595@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

Is this a reference to what I've just been noticing on the news the
last couple of days--the term"Islamists" being used to identify
(self-identify?) Muslim radical or extremist groups? Is this a new
usage? I haven't been paying attention.

Dennis

On Mar 16, 2004, at 8:47 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      linguistic tolerance
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 3/16/04 9:27:25 PM, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes:
>
>
>> ... one has to take
>> control of how one is defined.=A0 A most prominent example at the
>> moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.=A0 Perhaps if more of the
>> "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
>> would not be hijacked by the terrorists.
>> =20
>> Rima
>> =20
> I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do,
> exactly, to=20
> "reclaim the name" of Islam; moreover, the idea of "reclaiming" a name
> that=20=
> one=20
> has (in one's own view) never lost is not very attractive. In the end,
> it is=
> =20
> not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior.=20
>
> It has always seemed to me an unhappy turn of events when
> self-proclaimed=20
> "Christians" make pronouncements that exclude other self-proclaimed
> Christia=
> ns=20
> from the fold, rather than discussing the differences in beliefs that
> separa=
> te=20
> them. The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own
> use i=
> s a=20
> kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar 17 08:03:27 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:03:27 -0800
Subject: linguistic tolerance
In-Reply-To: <200403161847.1b3r5C1ET3NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: 

>...I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do,
>exactly, to=20
>"reclaim the name" of Islam

Disassociate themselves loudly, clearly, immediately from those who
are killing as many as possible in "their" name.  When David Koresh
had his group in Texas, no one thought they represented
"Christianity" as a whole.  Mainstream churches clearly disassociated
themselves from him and refused to let him define Christianity.
Muslims, by and large, did nothing similar.

>... In the end, it is=
>=20
>not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior.=20

Of course, but every group tries to define itself to the rest of the
world.  Every individual as well.  I'd be very upset if someone tried
to define me in terms I felt were untrue.

>...The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own use i=
>s a=20
>kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.

This is precisely what I'm saying - in a way.  If the huge majority
of Muslims do not agree with the definition (and behavior) put forth
by those Islamic terrorists, they should not allow that small
minority to define them.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 10:51:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:51:25 EST
Subject: "WYSIWYG" in Seybold obituary
Message-ID: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/business/16SEYB.html
John W. Seybold, 88, Innovator in Printing, Is Dead
By JOHN MARKOFF
Published: March 16, 2004
John W. Seybold, a pioneer in the field of computerized typesetting, which
transformed the publishing industry, died on Sunday at a hospice in Haverford,
Pa. He was 88.
(...)
In 1964 Rocappi produced the first computer-typeset product guide, an
automotive directory for McGraw-Hill. The project made heavy use of macros, programs
to simplify the repetitive creation of listings, an application that Mr.
Seybold pioneered.

The company created a pagination program that made it possible to control the
appearance of text on a printed page with software. The task had previously
been done manually by printers who worked with individual lines of typed text
formed from hot lead.

It was Mr. Seybold, according to his son Andrew, who first used "what you see
is what you get" in reference to computerized word processing, after watching
"The Flip Wilson Show," on which Mr. Wilson used the phrase to describe his
female character Geraldine.

The phrase came to be abbreviated as WYSIWYG and was popularized by computer
systems developed at the Palo Alto Research Center of Xerox in the early
1970's.

In 1971, with his son Jonathan, Mr. Seybold started The Seybold Report, an
industry newsletter appearing twice a month that became an authoritative
resource for the publishing industry.


(Maybe I'll look through it for WYSIWYG, which OED has from an April 1982
BYTE--ed.)


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 11:24:26 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:24:26 -0500
Subject: The Eruditor? [9 'yards! Essenes!]
Message-ID: 

Eruditio et Religio is the Duke University motto. The library here is getting
an integrated library system, which I guess is software that combines several
now-separate functions and expands options. What to name it? One suggestion:
The Eruditor. According to Lewis and Short Latin Dictionary, that's "an
instructor, teacher" in post-classical Latin (Tertullian, Jerome, Vulgate).
But I have some doubt it will be selected. So what to do with a once-useless
(sadly, not yet in OED) word? ads-l at .... I guess pronunciations would vary,
though imagine all who would become eruditer. Maybe that's the problem. Going
in too many directions: venerable? techyish? ...rude?

Thanks to Gerald Cohen, Sean Fitzpatrick et al. (though with the "all your
error are mine," or something, disclaimer) for help so far on full nine yards.
Some pretty-good researchers have looked: practically speaking, we can be
rather confident that the phrase did not predate the US Vietnam War. And, I
say, does not predate May 1966 when Officer Mole explicitly grouped the nine
tribes of Montagnards in I Corps area. Later that year, pilot "Smash"
Chandler, based at Danang in I Corps, is documented using the phrase. So, for
instance, Barry "that sound like it" Popik, you going to just let this go?
Why, with the right 1966 citation, I bet that NYT rag would lift its Big Apple
antedating embargo. Anyway, that's my story and--unless someone presents a
better-documented alternative--I'm sticking with it.

And again my main etymology question: anyone know a scholarly instance of
recognition that "Essenes" started with the Hebrew root 'asah before Johannes
Carion, Chronica, 1532?

best,
Stephen Goranson


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Mar 17 12:04:00 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:04:00 +0000
Subject: Islamist
Message-ID: 

Dennis Baron asked about _Islamist_:

The term is used in the UK often, and checking back into the BBC archives
it was used well before Sept 11.  (I can't tell you how far before, but I
got as far back as 1997).  It is in the names of various political
parties--at least as they are translated into English--and many of the
earlier citations I found were just using it as part of a name, but these
days it's used in general to refer to a certain kind of politicised Islamic
fundamentalism.

After Sept 11, I recall some overt discussion of the term in the news
media.  A quick search finds Salman Rushdie in the Guardian (3 Nov 2001)
writing:

'These Islamists - we must get used to this word, "Islamists", meaning
those who are engaged upon such political projects, and learn to
distinguish it from the more general, and politically neutral, "Muslim" -
include the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the bloodsoaked combatants of the
FIS and GIA in Algeria, the Shia revolutionaries of Iran, and the Taliban.'


You can see much more discussion of the term on the web if you put "word
Islamist" into Google.

Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
politicised Christian fundamentalism.  I've searched for that on Google and
most examples seem to use it as a neutral adjective (The Christianist Era),
but found an article on 'nationalistic christianism':


There's also a political editorial about 'islamist' (vs. 'christianist')
from a-Jazeerah at:




Cheers,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Wed Mar 17 12:07:48 2004
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:07:48 +1000
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: <200403170505.i2H55D1l004556@mailhub1.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Geoff

Well known in Australian English, together with about 2,000 others in
-ie/-y. Also in this semantic area oldies, the olds (not a car here),
grayie, oldster, crustie (an unkempt older person).

This formation is apparently spreading in the US - a colleague in
Texas tells me his daughter says she is using her "cellie".

Roly Sussex


>
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
>From:    Geoffrey Nunberg 
>Subject: "gerries" for old persons
>
>Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
>20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
>hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
>"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
>
>Geoff Nunberg
>

--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Mar 17 12:50:47 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:50:47 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I am such a gerrie that I thought Roly's US colleague's daughter was
referring to her cello (until the modern world caught up with me,
maybe only because I am acquainted with European handi/y).

dInIs (who hopes codgie and geezie will not follow)



Geoff

Well known in Australian English, together with about 2,000 others in
-ie/-y. Also in this semantic area oldies, the olds (not a car here),
grayie, oldster, crustie (an unkempt older person).

This formation is apparently spreading in the US - a colleague in
Texas tells me his daughter says she is using her "cellie".

Roly Sussex




Date:    Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
From:    Geoffrey Nunberg 
Subject: "gerries" for old persons

Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

Geoff Nunberg


--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Mar 17 12:56:11 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:56:11 -0500
Subject: polygotry
Message-ID: 

From:    RonButters at AOL.COM
: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes:

Discussing polygyny:

:: Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these
:: arrangements are not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to
:: be.

: With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that
: people cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.

And the church people generally think of upon hearing the phrase "Mormon
church" (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, based in Salt Lake
City, Utah) prefers, as an institution, *not* to be referred to as the
Mormon church (in addition, it seems to dislike the use of "Mormon" being
applied to polygynous groups): see
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4043-1---15-168,00.html

However, having taught at Brigham Young University, which that church runs,
and having been a member of that church for notably longer than that, it's
more complicated when you get to members of that church--some feel that
"Mormon" is perfectly acceptable (I'm one of those), while others feel that
it's most emphatically not (usually preferring "LDS", short for "Latter-day
Saints"). (I've long thought there's regional variation in this, but I'm not
quite sure how to do the sampling to investigate that.)

Moving to other Latter Day Saint Movement religions, some emphatically
reject the term "Mormon" while others use it freely; this is the case for
both polygynous *and* non-polygynous groups. So, for example, the Community
of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (both
non-polygynous, and yes, that second one's very different than the one in
the first paragraph) respectively reject and embrace the "Mormon" label,
while the "Mormon" label is accepted and rejected by polygynous groups such
as, respectively, the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times and
the Apostolic United Brethren.

But wait--to complicate matters further, Terry Lofthouse, a non-believing
member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, incorporated a
Mormon Church (that's its official name) a couple years ago after getting
annoyed at having people tell him "There's no 'Mormon Church'".

Like I wrote above, I like the term "Mormon"--it takes a lot less time to
say than most of the other names. However, if it's a context that requires
any precision at all that's not blindingly obvious from context, it's not
really a good term to use.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 13:12:16 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:12:16 -0600
Subject: Islamist
In-Reply-To: <200403171214.i2HCE9C27232@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Lynne Murphy wrote (much snipped):
> Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
> politicised Christian fundamentalism.

By way of comparison, there was a revolt by conservative Catholics in
Mexico in the 1920s; the rebels were known as "cristeros".

Jim Parish


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:16:34 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:16:34 -0800
Subject: stridden
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:46 PM, A. Murie wrote:

> "Strode" has a certain poetic consonance -- a kind of vigor -- with the
> image of striding that "stridden" totally lacks.
> I don't think the authority of the /ride/ & /hide/ models can overcome
> the
> inappropriate _feeling_ of "stridden."  "Stridden" suggests tripping
> along,
> altogether the wrong image.


ah, that would be the tense back /o/ of "strode" vs. the lax front /I/
of "stridden", plus the one syllable of "strode" vs. the two of
"stridden".  vowel quality and number of syllables together make
"strode" connotatively stronger, tougher, more masculine, as against
the weaker, sweeter, more feminine "stridden".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:48:56 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:48:56 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316201834.02f11af0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
>> which
>> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
>> its
>> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
>> eventually
>> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>> this lexical item "whacked".)
>
> I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be
> that
> this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
> analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
> "stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the
> underlying
> "jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate
> "wank[er]"
> (originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The
> ultimate
> etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]

NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
of unknown origin.

other masturbatory expressions are pretty clearly derived from verbs of
contact: beat off, toss (off), w(h)ack off, spank the monkey.

in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

on syntactic grounds, it looks hopeless.  first, there's the fact that
the early uses of the adjective are predicative, and it's hard to see
how verbs could end up in this function.  but let's look at adnominal
uses, assuming that somehow they're the earlier ones.  these sound
fishy to me if the "off" is preserved:
   ??This is a really whack-off party.  [*not* describing a masturbatory
gathering]
and there are no parallels, so far as i know, for other masturbatory
verbs, with or without the "off":
   ??This is a really beat(-off)/wank(-off)/jack(-off) party.

but if someone has citations for these sorts of things, i'll take doug
wilson's speculation more seriously.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:55:23 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:55:23 -0500
Subject: Islamist
In-Reply-To: <4057FA50.17473.B7D47C@localhost>
Message-ID: 

At 7:12 AM -0600 3/17/04, Jim Parish wrote:
>Lynne Murphy wrote (much snipped):
>>  Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
>>  politicised Christian fundamentalism.
>
>By way of comparison, there was a revolt by conservative Catholics in
>Mexico in the 1920s; the rebels were known as "cristeros".
>

I've heard the English equivalent "Christer" used on occasion, but in
a slang register.  It's pejorative, unlike "Islamist" or, I assume,
"cristeros".  I believe it is used for holier-than-thou Christians,
the Pat Robertson type; not quite the same as the above meanings, but
overlapping with it.  I don't have my HDAS on me.  It is in the OED,
though:
===================
Christer        SECOND EDITION, 1989
U.S. slang
A term applied disparagingly to an over-zealous, over-pious, or
sanctimonious person.

1924 'W. FABIAN' Sailors' Wives vii. 90 You never were a Christer in
college. 1932 J. DOS PASSOS 1919 137 In spite of not drinking and
being somewhat of a Christer, having odd ideas about reform and
remedying abuses. 1934 H. MILLER Tropic of Cancer (1948) 81 It
doesn't matter to me whether he's a chauvinist, a little Christer, or
a near-sighted pedant. 1940 E. POUND Cantos lxi. 97 You Christers
wanna have foot on two boats. 1966 J. PHILIPS Wings of Madness (1967)
III. i. 172 I'm a Christer and do-gooder... I wasn't welcome.
===============
Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 17:20:05 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:20:05 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316201834.02f11af0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

Along the lines of these observations of Doug's, and Ron's
google-scouting of "really dick" etc., I checked "really wank", and
it too yields a plethora of pejorative uses of this type, presuambly
Brit counterparts of "really w(h)ack".   There are 197 google hits
for "really wank"; while some are irrelevant--'This isn't really
"wank writing" - it's too complex for that'-- most correspond to the
desired sense.)

larry horn


At 8:35 PM -0500 3/16/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
>>derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>>almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
>>slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
>>with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>>ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>>this lexical item "whacked".)
>
>I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be that
>this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
>analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
>"stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the underlying
>"jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate "wank[er]"
>(originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The ultimate
>etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]
>
>The novelty might be the predicative use (as well as the loss of "off" ...
>or is/was "whack" commonly used alone in some regions or milieux [like
>"wank" apparently is in England])?
>
>>1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
>>an unusual loss of final /t/.
>
>I would speculate that this /t/-loss did not occur, and that the earlier
>version was "whack[off]" [adj.] = "jack-off" meaning roughly
>"stupid"/"contemptible".
>
>Just an idle thought.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Mar 17 17:52:28 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:52:28 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 08:48:56AM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
> extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
> 'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
> seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
> to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
> masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
> a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

Maybe this is too obvious, or someone mentioned it already when I
wasn't paying attention, but what about _wacky_ as a source?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Mar 17 18:39:20 2004
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:39:20 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I often heard "wrinklies" while living in England (1987-97).
Wendalyn Nichols

At 11:39 PM 3/15/04 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
>20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
>hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
>"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
>
>Geoff Nunberg


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 19:08:07 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:08:07 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <200403171649.ARQ41413@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:48 AM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> >> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
> >> which
> >> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
> >> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
> >> its
> >> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
> >> eventually
> >> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
> >> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
> >> this lexical item "whacked".)

The semantics doesn't work quite right, but the expression 'out of whack'
(off-kilter, not working right etc.) seems related here.  I don't think
anyone's suggested this connection yet.

Geoff


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 20:02:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:02:43 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040317135932.0272cbe8@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

>At 11:48 AM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>>On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>>  unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
>>>>  which
>>>>  derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>>>>  almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
>>>>  its
>>>>  slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
>>>>  eventually
>>>>  with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>>>>  ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>>>>  this lexical item "whacked".)
>
>The semantics doesn't work quite right

--given that "w(h)ack" would essentially equate to "out of whack".
Seems unlikely, although not impossible.  The OED sees "out of whack"
as being related to "wacky", so all semantic bets appear to be off,
if not out of whack.

Larry

>, but the expression 'out of whack'
>(off-kilter, not working right etc.) seems related here.  I don't think
>anyone's suggested this connection yet.
>
>Geoff


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 20:23:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:23:03 EST
Subject: "Second City" in OED
Message-ID: 

   "Second City" was added in the March 2004 OED update, just received.
   The first citation with Chicago is--1980?  1980????  (There are also 
numerous "Glasgow" "second city" cites before 1933.)
   No one read that I'd posted this to 1890?  That 1890 census made it 
official, but we have it a little earlier for Chicago on Newspaperarchive.
   Every single thing I do, every day, you have to repeat a million times for 
everyone, and even then you have to repeat it over and over for those same 
people, and then you have to remind them that you're doing this for free, and of 
course no one loves you...
  
  
(OED)
_second city_, n.
The second largest city in a particular country or region; (also) a city 
which is often regarded as the second most important in a country or region.
  Usually with in or of, except when second city (freq. with the and with 
capital initials in this context) has become something of a fixed name for a 
particular city within a given country, as, for example, Chicago (in the United 
States), Birmingham (in England), or Glasgow (in Scotland). 
 
  1621 J. REYNOLDS Triumphs Gods Revenge I. ii. 40 Pauia (the second City of 
the Dutchy of Millan). 1726 SWIFT Gulliver (1976) III. iii. 152 Lindalino, the 
second city in the kingdom, was the first his Majesty visited in his 
progress. 1801 C. B. BROWN Clara Howard xiii. 111 The second city in our country was 
familiar to my fancy by description. 1869 ‘M. TWAIN’ Innocents Abroad xxiv. 
253 She [sc. Pisa] has but one thing left to boast of, and that is not much, 
viz: she is the second city of Tuscany. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 449/2 The greatness 
of Aix was due to the latter [i.e. Charlemagne], who between 777 and 
786..raised the place to the rank of the second city of the Empire. 1933 Times 31 Jan. 
6/3 Our ‘second city’ [i.e. Glasgow] has placed its whole crop of Spanish 
graduates on the elementary reserve list of teachers. 1980 TWA Ambassador Oct. 
81/1 The influence of the Second City [i.e. Chicago] on the tenor as well as 
the direction of his workparticularly his booksis inestimable. 1997 Daily Tel. 
23 Apr. 6/5 Edgbaston is the home of the Second City's university, teaching 
hospital,..BBC studio and a substantial part of Brum's professional and 
managerial population.
 


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Weekly Republican - 6/7/1883    
...CHICAGO is now the third, and almost the SECOND, CITY in the Union, with 
respect to.....New York is the first, Boston the SECOND and CHICAGO the third, 
and Boston will.....Health of CHICAGO finds that houses iu that CITY contain 
an average of throe families.....at tho post office at Dccatur, Illinois us 
SECOND class mall matter. BISMARCK is to be..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, June 07, 1883  648 k    
       
Ohio Democrat - 8/26/1886   
...its population. In 1900 CHICAGO will be the SECOND CITY of the Western 
hemisphere, with.....last year of This makes CHICAGO the fourth CITY on the 
continent, New York, Brooklyn and.....BcUu-sdii Kneampment, I. O. O. Meets every 
SECOND and fourth Fridny of eui-1 mouth, ut.....masked. as they were to their 
heavily CHICAGO. A school census just completed at..
New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 26, 1886  1155 k    
       
Daily Herald - 2/21/1899    
...the site of Chicago. The land on which the SECOND CITY of the Union now 
stands was owned.....adpoted in other countries, this included. GLASGOW, 
Scotland, is occasionally referred.....to in American newspapers as a CITY that has 
demonstrated the success of.....possibility of government without taxation. 
GLASGOW has municipal ownership of its..
Delphos, Ohio Tuesday, February 21, 1899  971 k     
     
Olean Democrat - 7/18/1889  
...CHICAGO KUo of it Tort In A Town In 1837 A CITY in 184O. now claims to bo 
tho SECOND.....from the start, but CHICAGO is the only CITY which has enjoyed 
a "phenomenal growth.....nstrument somewhat like a xylophone, tho SECOND sings 
and the third plays a sort of.....South park. 10. Oakwoods cemetery. THE XEW 
CHICAGO. As CHICAGO previously covered 42..
Olean, New York   Thursday, July 18, 1889  913 k    
      
Newark Daily Advocate - 7/26/1889   
...provinces, CHICAGO claims to bo tho SECOND CITY of tho Union. Sho is 
absolutely.....and CHICAGO Div Ace. CHICAGO Fast Line. CHICAGO Express.... CHICAGO 
Mail and Es.....Whom it May Concern. BE it resolved by the CITY Council of the 
CITY of Newark, Ohio, two.....look after these sleepers, all holders of 
SECOND class Montana and Pacific coast..
Newark, Ohio Friday, July 26, 1889  1043 k      
     
Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1889    
...leads the former in population and is tho SECOND CITY in the United 
States. The.....than twelve or fourteen. RISES ALL THE CHICAGO SECOND. Sh Pninei 
Philadelphia in.....d4 l l For the best bargains in the CITY in Coal try the 
yards corner Locust and.....Littlo Eva, U, 12, 10, 0, S. Timo. ______ CHICAGO 
Winning Nugn. CHICAGO, August First..
Newark, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1889  843 k     
        
Herald Despatch - 3/29/1890     
...It gives relief at once. CHICAGO is ihe SECOND CITY of the Union. The 
proprietors of.....of tus death and was with trusts and the SECOND class are those 
of the of Missouri.....to visit the Star Chapter meeting at Farmer CITY 
to-night. .The famous but ghastly.....in millinery of Clinton, has gone to CHICAGO 
to work for some time in a wholesale..
Decatur, Illinois Saturday, March 29, 1890  694 k       
        
Indiana Gazette - 7/24/1890     
...now stated that CHICAGO, the World's Fair CITY, is the SECOND CITY in the 
'United.....are Cape May, Atlantic CITY, Sea Isle CITY or Ocean CITY, every 
one of which is a.....S Great Show will exhibit in Allegheny CITY on July 28. 
THE Street Commissioner is.....as4 accomplished young lady of that CITY. Will is 
nov; filling an engagement with..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1890  893 k    
     
Fort Wayne Sentinel - 8/8/1890  
...Sept. 1st. THE census makes CHICAGO the SECOND CITY iu point of population 
iu the.....the pay of supervisors in the First and SECOND Indiana districts, 
as the returns are.....which is to be held iu this CITY September 15th to 
20th, will bo of great.....Buffalo 10; Brooklyn 5, Philadelphia 4; CHICAGO 18, 
Clevelancl 4. National League..
Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, August 08, 1890  714 k      
        
Decatur Weekly Republican - 9/24/1891   
...of the lake, the garden CITY, the SECOND CITY in the United States, ana of 
her people.....it is the best CITY in the state outside of CHICAGO. I have 
only lived in Decatur 12.....Farmer CITY and Clinton lairs and SECOND nt the 
Bloornington fair. The horse.....challenge any CITY in Illinois, outside of 
CHICAGO, to make such a showing in the past..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, September 24, 1891  555 k       
     
Daily Iowa State Press - 8/30/1900  
...of her faculties. "And now CHICAGO Is the-SECOND CITY in wealth and 
population on this.....which were adopted: The democrats of the SECOND Iowa district 
'in convention assembled.....and prompt manner, we also found the CITY 
governed, and the police: inti and.....bouse Wan. Tierney No. 507 Iowa Avenue. 
CHICAGO, Aug. The Grand Army of the Itopublic..
Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, August 30, 1900  944 k    
    


    
    


















 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 20:29:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:29:54 EST
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)
Message-ID: 

   "Three-dollar bill" was mentioned in the "football bat" discussion.
   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s+" for "three-dollar bill."
   Here's a quick check of Newspaperarchive.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Monessen Daily Independent - 6/4/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAve employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....LeAgue And Lou Oehrie in the AmericAn. BILL Terry.
Grimm; George Sisler And "nti.....mAnAged to tAke DAler moundsmAn, wAlked
THREE And struck out one. The PricedAle..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 04, 1942  785 k

Nevada State Journal - 6/7/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE-dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAve employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....to the ChicAgo trAcks won't Affect the two-dollAr
bettor A bit, The cAb fAre in this.....LeAgue And Lou Gehrig in the AmericAn.
BILL Terry, Grimm, George Sisler And until..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, June 07, 1942  690 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/3/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAvc employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....SchumAcher returned to form And outpifched BILL Lee
AS the GiAnts defeAted the Cubs, 5-1.....out 20 hits for A totAl oi 32 bASes
AgAinst THREE pitchers, Aldon Wilkie, Johnny LAnning..
Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, June 03, 1942  768 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/16/1948
...demonstrAtion mAy be AS phoney AS A THREE-dollAr BILL but it mAy Also
continue for AS.....AS being unAmericAn, wAS the fAther of THREE World WAr II
veterAns, one of whom wAS.....brAn. Hunting And fishing Are multimillion-dollAr
businesses, topping All sports In.....Announced he would offer An Anti-lynching
BILL AS An Amendment to the OleomArgArine TAx..
Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, June 16, 1948  646 k

Traverse City Record Eagle - 6/4/1948
...in the first plAce wAS AS phoney AS A THREE dollAr BILL. PerhAps you think
you hAve no.....no sign of the picketing threAtened by the THREE rAilroAd
unions whose scheduled.....he wAS Almost in teArs. "I I meAnt it AS A greAt prA
ise." "It just seemed to hAve.....t be there. Mr, TrumAn wAS in high spirits AS
his trAin left WAShington's Union stAtion..
Traverse City, Michigan Friday, June 04, 1948  452 k


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 20:37:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:37:48 -0500
Subject: "Second City" in OED
In-Reply-To: <15d.30568e99.2d8a0da7@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:23 PM -0500 3/17/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    "Second City" was added in the March 2004 OED update, just received.
>    The first citation with Chicago is--1980?  1980????  (There are also
>numerous "Glasgow" "second city" cites before 1933.)
>    No one read that I'd posted this to 1890?  That 1890 census made it
>official, but we have it a little earlier for Chicago on Newspaperarchive.
>    Every single thing I do, every day, you have to repeat a million times for
>everyone, and even then you have to repeat it over and over for those same
>people, and then you have to remind them that you're doing this for
>free, and of
>course no one loves you...
>
>

Actually, none of the quotes below really instantiates "Second City"
= Chicago.  What we need is a context in which "Second City" is used
outside of a defining or identifying example, as in "The Second City
Comedy Troupe" or whatever it was called.  Crucially, it must be
presupposed, not asserted, that Chicago is the Second City.  I'm sure
such examples can be found that are closer in time to 1890 than to
1980, but the ones below ("Chicago is now the Second City") don't
really do it in my opinion, although the 1899 one comes close.

Larry Horn

>(OED)
>_second city_, n.
>The second largest city in a particular country or region; (also) a city
>which is often regarded as the second most important in a country or region.
>   Usually with in or of, except when second city (freq. with the and with
>capital initials in this context) has become something of a fixed name for a
>particular city within a given country, as, for example, Chicago (in
>the United
>States), Birmingham (in England), or Glasgow (in Scotland).
>
>   1621 J. REYNOLDS Triumphs Gods Revenge I. ii. 40 Pauia (the second City of
>the Dutchy of Millan). 1726 SWIFT Gulliver (1976) III. iii. 152 Lindalino, the
>second city in the kingdom, was the first his Majesty visited in his
>progress. 1801 C. B. BROWN Clara Howard xiii. 111 The second city in
>our country was
>familiar to my fancy by description. 1869 'M. TWAIN' Innocents Abroad xxiv.
>253 She [sc. Pisa] has but one thing left to boast of, and that is not much,
>viz: she is the second city of Tuscany. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 449/2
>The greatness
>of Aix was due to the latter [i.e. Charlemagne], who between 777 and
>786..raised the place to the rank of the second city of the Empire.
>1933 Times 31 Jan.
>6/3 Our 'second city' [i.e. Glasgow] has placed its whole crop of Spanish
>graduates on the elementary reserve list of teachers. 1980 TWA Ambassador Oct.
>81/1 The influence of the Second City [i.e. Chicago] on the tenor as well as
>the direction of his workparticularly his booksis inestimable. 1997 Daily Tel.
>23 Apr. 6/5 Edgbaston is the home of the Second City's university, teaching
>hospital,..BBC studio and a substantial part of Brum's professional and
>managerial population.
>
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Decatur Weekly Republican - 6/7/1883
>...CHICAGO is now the third, and almost the SECOND, CITY in the Union, with
>respect to.....New York is the first, Boston the SECOND and CHICAGO the third,
>and Boston will.....Health of CHICAGO finds that houses iu that CITY contain
>an average of throe families.....at tho post office at Dccatur, Illinois us
>SECOND class mall matter. BISMARCK is to be..
>Decatur, Illinois Thursday, June 07, 1883  648 k
>
>Ohio Democrat - 8/26/1886
>...its population. In 1900 CHICAGO will be the SECOND CITY of the Western
>hemisphere, with.....last year of This makes CHICAGO the fourth CITY on the
>continent, New York, Brooklyn and.....BcUu-sdii Kneampment, I. O. O.
>Meets every
>SECOND and fourth Fridny of eui-1 mouth, ut.....masked. as they were to their
>heavily CHICAGO. A school census just completed at..
>New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 26, 1886  1155 k
>
>Daily Herald - 2/21/1899
>...the site of Chicago. The land on which the SECOND CITY of the Union now
>stands was owned.....adpoted in other countries, this included. GLASGOW,
>Scotland, is occasionally referred.....to in American newspapers as
>a CITY that has
>demonstrated the success of.....possibility of government without taxation.
>GLASGOW has municipal ownership of its..
>Delphos, Ohio Tuesday, February 21, 1899  971 k
>
>Olean Democrat - 7/18/1889
>...CHICAGO KUo of it Tort In A Town In 1837 A CITY in 184O. now claims to bo
>tho SECOND.....from the start, but CHICAGO is the only CITY which has enjoyed
>a "phenomenal growth.....nstrument somewhat like a xylophone, tho SECOND sings
>and the third plays a sort of.....South park. 10. Oakwoods cemetery. THE XEW
>CHICAGO. As CHICAGO previously covered 42..
>Olean, New York   Thursday, July 18, 1889  913 k
>
>Newark Daily Advocate - 7/26/1889
>...provinces, CHICAGO claims to bo tho SECOND CITY of tho Union. Sho is
>absolutely.....and CHICAGO Div Ace. CHICAGO Fast Line. CHICAGO
>Express.... CHICAGO
>Mail and Es.....Whom it May Concern. BE it resolved by the CITY Council of the
>CITY of Newark, Ohio, two.....look after these sleepers, all holders of
>SECOND class Montana and Pacific coast..
>Newark, Ohio Friday, July 26, 1889  1043 k
>
>Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1889
>...leads the former in population and is tho SECOND CITY in the United
>States. The.....than twelve or fourteen. RISES ALL THE CHICAGO
>SECOND. Sh Pninei
>Philadelphia in.....d4 l l For the best bargains in the CITY in Coal try the
>yards corner Locust and.....Littlo Eva, U, 12, 10, 0, S. Timo. ______ CHICAGO
>Winning Nugn. CHICAGO, August First..
>Newark, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1889  843 k
>
>Herald Despatch - 3/29/1890
>...It gives relief at once. CHICAGO is ihe SECOND CITY of the Union. The
>proprietors of.....of tus death and was with trusts and the SECOND
>class are those
>of the of Missouri.....to visit the Star Chapter meeting at Farmer CITY
>to-night. .The famous but ghastly.....in millinery of Clinton, has
>gone to CHICAGO
>to work for some time in a wholesale..
>Decatur, Illinois Saturday, March 29, 1890  694 k
>
>Indiana Gazette - 7/24/1890
>...now stated that CHICAGO, the World's Fair CITY, is the SECOND CITY in the
>'United.....are Cape May, Atlantic CITY, Sea Isle CITY or Ocean CITY, every
>one of which is a.....S Great Show will exhibit in Allegheny CITY on July 28.
>THE Street Commissioner is.....as4 accomplished young lady of that
>CITY. Will is
>nov; filling an engagement with..
>Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1890  893 k
>
>Fort Wayne Sentinel - 8/8/1890
>...Sept. 1st. THE census makes CHICAGO the SECOND CITY iu point of population
>iu the.....the pay of supervisors in the First and SECOND Indiana districts,
>as the returns are.....which is to be held iu this CITY September 15th to
>20th, will bo of great.....Buffalo 10; Brooklyn 5, Philadelphia 4; CHICAGO 18,
>Clevelancl 4. National League..
>Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, August 08, 1890  714 k
>
>Decatur Weekly Republican - 9/24/1891
>...of the lake, the garden CITY, the SECOND CITY in the United States, ana of
>her people.....it is the best CITY in the state outside of CHICAGO. I have
>only lived in Decatur 12.....Farmer CITY and Clinton lairs and SECOND nt the
>Bloornington fair. The horse.....challenge any CITY in Illinois, outside of
>CHICAGO, to make such a showing in the past..
>Decatur, Illinois Thursday, September 24, 1891  555 k
>
>Daily Iowa State Press - 8/30/1900
>...of her faculties. "And now CHICAGO Is the-SECOND CITY in wealth and
>population on this.....which were adopted: The democrats of the
>SECOND Iowa district
>'in convention assembled.....and prompt manner, we also found the CITY
>governed, and the police: inti and.....bouse Wan. Tierney No. 507 Iowa Avenue.
>CHICAGO, Aug. The Grand Army of the Itopublic..
>Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, August 30, 1900  944 k
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 23:28:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:28:57 -0500
Subject: Phony as a three dollar bill (1945)
Message-ID: 

   More three-dollar bills, from ProQuest Historical Newspapers.


Planes Dropped Phony Money to Japs as War Ended
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1945. p. 4 (1 page):
   Stage money--as phony as a three dollar bill--was one of the psychological weapons used by Allied forces in the closing days of the Japanese war.
   The "bills," one of which has been sent back to Washington, were scattered by American planes over Japan, urging widespread buying in order to deplete Japan's already-thinned stocks.
   Printed on the back of the bills was the admonition to Japanese:
   "What good is money in the bank or in bonds?  Buy articles you need now and buy articles for future use.  The remaining supply is low.  A wise person would buy now, not save his money.  The present is not a time for money.  It is a period for goods."


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 23:27:21 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:27:21 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
>"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
>of unknown origin.

Of course you're never provably wrong in choosing "unknown origin". I doubt
"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
off", "tom off", "joe off"?); I suspect "jack" is basically like "jack up
the car to change the tire" (if there's any documentary evidence, of
course, that trumps my idle notions).

>in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
>extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
>'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
>seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
>to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
>masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
>a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

I would speculate that "wack"/"whack" went its own way and the earlier form
was forgotten ... whether it was "whack-off", "wacky", or "whacked", or
even "out of whack". One would want to examine the earliest uses (I don't
have them handy).

>on syntactic grounds, it looks hopeless.  first, there's the fact that
>the early uses of the adjective are predicative, and it's hard to see
>how verbs could end up in this function.

Is it really certain that the early use was predicative? Searching Google
groups, I find "wack ideas" earlier than "that's wack" (1992 vs. 1994) ...
of course the material is sparse in the early days and I'm sure this was
around in the 1980's.

Again I would suppose that the predicative use arose after "wack" began its
independent adnominal career.

>   but let's look at adnominal
>uses, assuming that somehow they're the earlier ones.  these sound
>fishy to me if the "off" is preserved:
>   ??This is a really whack-off party.  [*not* describing a masturbatory
>gathering]
>and there are no parallels, so far as i know, for other masturbatory
>verbs, with or without the "off":
>   ??This is a really beat(-off)/wank(-off)/jack(-off) party.

The earliest application might have been "whackoff friends/ideas" (I've
surely heard the equivalents with "jackoff") > "wack friends/ideas", and
after this "wack" would go its own way, interpreted (by anybody who
happened to think about the matter) as presumably a derivative of "wacky"
or something else.

This is only a plausibility argument: I am not religiously attached to this
notion; I present it as one of several possibilities.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 18 00:05:35 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:05:35 -0500
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)
Message-ID: 

I'm truly amazed that an expression using "three dollar bill" in a manner
that implied phoney, rare, queer or anything else doesn't appear in the
popular press until 1948.

Three dollar banknotes were not uncommon in the pre-Civil War days in the
US, but when the Federal government starting isssuing banknotes in 1862,
that was the end of private notes.  The Feds never printed a $3.

So, why did it take until 1948 to say that something was as
phoney/queer/rare/strange as a three dollar bill?

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)


>    "Three-dollar bill" was mentioned in the "football bat" discussion.

> Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/16/1948
> ...demonstrAtion mAy be AS phoney AS A THREE-dollAr BILL but it mAy Also
> continue for AS.....AS being unAmericAn, wAS the fAther of THREE World WAr
II
> veterAns, one of whom wAS.....brAn. Hunting And fishing Are
multimillion-dollAr
> businesses, topping All sports In.....Announced he would offer An
Anti-lynching
> BILL AS An Amendment to the OleomArgArine TAx..
> Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, June 16, 1948  646 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 00:09:44 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:09:44 -0500
Subject: Times Square (17 March 1904); Curry Hill (1995)
Message-ID: 

TIMES SQUARE

TIMES SQUARE--1,110,000 Google hits, 63,800 Google Groups hits

   It's 100 years old.  A NYT "city section" article appeared last Sunday.
   OED has no specific "Times Square" entry.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
TIMES TRIANGLE, TIMES SQUARE; New Names for Long Acre Square Suggested by a Reader of This Newspaper.
J.W.C. CORBUSIER.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 23, 1904. p. 8 (1 page):
_To the Editor of The New York TImes:_
   When the new building of THE NEW YORK TIMES shall be completed and become a thing of art and beauty in that section of the city in which it is to stand, why would it not be fitting that the space about the edifice be called "Times Triangle," or "Times Square," although perhaps it may not be a square?
   It is, it seems, more euphonious than "Long Acre Square," and very soon would become as well known as "Printing House Square" or "Herald Square."
   No doubt the Board of Aldermen would take up such a suggestion at the proper time and act upon it favorably.  Can it not be entertained?
   J. W. C. CORBUSIER.
New York, March 17, 1904.

RAPID TRANSIT BILLS PROBABLY WILL PASS; Commission Hears Counsels' Report on Measures in Senate. TIMES SQUARE" IS URGED President Belmont Would Have Another Name for the Junction at Forty-second Street.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 25, 1904. p. 2 (1 page)

TO BE CALLED TIMES SQUARE.; Aldermen Vote to Rename Long Acre Square, Site of New Times Building.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 6, 1904. p. 1 (1 page)

TIMES SQUARE.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1904. p. 8 (1 page)

Times Square, the Name of City's New Centre.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1904. p. 2 (1 page)

---------------------------------------------------------------
CURRY HILL

CURRY HILL + NY--249 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
CURRY HILL + NEW YORK--438 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits

   I like these cheap Indian restaurants and the name "Curry Hill," similar to "Murray Hill."  Robert Sietsema uses the name a lot.


(FACTIVA)
CHOICES
WESTWARD HO!
Robert Sietsema
686 words
6 February 1996
The Village Voice
15
English
(Copyright 1996 V V Publishing Company)

Traditionally, Manhattan's best inexpensive Indian restaurants have been concentrated in Murray Hill along lower Lex, in a neighborhood waggishly known as Curry Hill. The prices are similar to the cheaper joints on East 6th, but the Lexington Avenue places have the paradoxical advantage of serving from steam tables--meaning that the food is fast, and, more important, you can see it before you order. My favorite has always been East in the West (113 Lexington Avenue), where you get a doormat-size nan in addition to rice, raita, salad, and three steam-table selections for around $5.


(PROQUEST)
The Curry Hill scene
Pais, Arthur J.. India in New York. New York, N.Y.:  Aug 8, 2003. Vol. VI, Iss. 5;  pg. 22
Some of the better restaurants on Curry Hill (also known as Little India, on Lexington, between 26 and 31 Streets) that serve very good dishes under $10. Many of the restaurants also serve buffet.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (New York Times)
1. Onward and Upward on Curry Hill; Neighborhood's New Prosperity Draws Some Wistfulness
By STEPHEN SIGMUND. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1999. p. CY15 (1 page)

2. Kosher Curry and Kashruth Kebabs
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1995. p. CY1 (1 page)

3. Scratching a Niche: Kebabs, Curries . . . and It's All Kosher
SANDEEP JUNNARKAR. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1995. p. CY6 (1 page)
Abstract (Article Summary)
There are more than 12 Indian restaurants to choose from along the two-block stretch of Lexington Avenue between 27th and 29th Streets known by some as Little India, by others as Curry Hill. The competition is fierce. Curbs along the strip look like taxi stands, jammed by South Asian drivers who flock to the area for spicy kebabs and pungent curries.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Share available 5/15
Looking for someone to share in a three bedroom apartment on the upper
twenties on the East side (I call it "Curry Hill"). Currently ...
nyc.market.housing - Apr 23, 1996 by Vincent Lai - View Thread (1 article)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 01:09:42 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:09:42 -0500
Subject: Tarte Tatin (1898)
Message-ID: 

TARTE TATIN--27,500 Google hits, 2,300 Google Groups hits

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/dining/17CHEE.html
Cheesecake is one of those quintessential New York foodstuffs that in some circles is thought of as unsophisticated. Certainly its name does not roll off the tongue like tiramisù, or tarte Tatin.

   OED has...well, it doesn't have "tarte Tatin."
   It's not much of a secret that this dish is about 100 years old.


(GOOGLE)(This site declares: "1898-1998  100 ans de Tarte Tatin a Lamotte-Beuvron")
Tarte Tatin - Le Site Officiel de la Tarte Tatin - - [ Translate this page ]
La confrerie des lichonneux de Tarte Tatin vous présente : Le
Site Officiel de la Tarte Tatin. CLIQUEZ ICI POUR ENTRER. ...
Description: La confrérie des lichonneux de Tarte Tatin présente la spécialité de Lamotte-Beuvron due aux soeurs...
Category: World > Français > Maison > Cuisine > Desserts
www.tarte-tatin.com/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(First CSM hit)
   Elegant French apples
Special to The Christian Science MonitorM. de M.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 21, 1970. p. B10 (1 page):
   Pierre Balmain was born in the Haute Savoire, region of so many fine cheeses, and he agrees with the old French proverb that "a meal without cheese is like a beautiful woman with only one eye."
   Pierre's favorite dessert is "Tarte Tatin," a famous old French variation of apple pie named for the Tatin sisters.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (First Washington Post hit)
   OPEN-FACED APPLE PIE; New-Fashioned Apple Pie
By Carol Cutler. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 9, 1972. p. K1 (2 pages)
First Page:  The French regions of Normandy, where apple orchards abound, and the Cologne, a hunter's paradise, both claim to be the home of _Tarte des Demoiselles Tatin_, an upside-down carmelized apple pie.  Both stories claim that the young Tatin sisters helped run the family's country inn and invented this novel pie to delight their patrons.
   Wherever it came from, it's a delicious pie that takes on a special, tangy flavor from the caramel.


(PROQEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(First NYT hit)
Display Ad.(3)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1969. p. 2 (1 page)
"TARTE TATIN WITHOUT CREME FRAICHE", commented our chef, "IS LIKE A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN WITHOUT A SOUL."
So each week, where the grass grows sweet at the French village of Isigny, we take the cream of the cream from the fattest cows and jet it here.  For without the cream of Isigny, there would be no Tarte Tatin at L'Etoile.
L'ETOILE
At Fifth Avenue and 52nd St.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (No LA Times hit through 1957)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tarte Tatin :
more of la belle vie on Rue Tatin /
Author: Loomis, Susan Herrmann.
Publication: London : HarperCollins, 2003
Document: English : Book
Libraries Worldwide: 2

2.  La tarte tatin :
100 ans au service du goût /
Author: Moissac, Patrick.
Publication: La Ferté Saint Aubin : Archer, 1998
Document: French : Book
Libraries Worldwide: 2


(OT:  I'm looking for a beautiful woman with both eyes and a soul and cheese and tarte Tatin and creme fraiche, but not in that order--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Mar 18 02:08:47 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:08:47 -0600
Subject: Why "drunk as a boiled owl"? (was: Boiled owl (1861);...)
Message-ID: 

At 11:58 PM -0500 3/15/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>     Drunk as a boiled owl?
>     Why?  Why an owl?  Why a boiled owl?
>
>


  A partial answer is that the owl's glassy stare is likened to the
glassy stare of a drunk. That explains the owl.  Why boiled? I can
only guess that owls, as omens of death and disaster, were subjected
to cruelty, perhaps being boiled alive. Cf. the mistreatment of cats
in the Middle Ages (for supposedly being devils).

    If the wide-eyed look of a healthy owl is perceived as a glassy
stare, what must that look be as the owl is being boiled alive?

Gerald Cohen
P.S. I had never previously heard of "boiled" (drunk). I've heard
"stewed" and "pickled," although I've never understood their
rationale.



>http://www.hallowfreaks.com/text/superstitons2.html
>
>Owls - Lore tells that owls ate the souls of the dying by swooping
>to earth on Halloween. Owl screeches and their glassy stare are said
>to be an omen of death and disaster.




>http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=438

The Wordwizard Clubhouse
Boiled as an owl

I have searched various sources including this site, but can't seem
to find anything relating to this. Help, anyone?

...

Response from Charles Becker (Murray KY - U.S.A.)


On the phrase "pickled as an owl," Word Detective (30 Sep 1998) says:

... but the choice of an owl may have been in reference to the
perceived similarity of an owl's wide gaze to a drunk's glassy stare.


>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 02:51:36 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:51:36 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040317180133.02f0c540@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>>NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
>>"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
>>of unknown origin.
>
>Of course you're never provably wrong in choosing "unknown origin". I doubt
>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>off", "tom off", "joe off"?); I suspect "jack" is basically like "jack up
>the car to change the tire" (if there's any documentary evidence, of
>course, that trumps my idle notions).
>

I was wondering whether "jack off" might have originated as an
alteration of "jerk off", where the meaning appears to be derived
from the motion involved, but while HDAS suggests the two are indeed
alternants, the former does have a slightly longer pedigree, and the
OED clearly assumes "jack off" does indeed originate as Doug
suggests--not with car tires so much as the jacking (up) of large
objects in general, which predated horseless carriages as such.
Train cars could be jacked up, for example:

1885 Pall Mall G. 20 Mar. 6/1 To 'jack-up' a seven-ton engine and
replace it on the rails.

and the same general entry that gives this as the first sense (JACK,
v. 1) gives "jack off" under sense 5, with an apposite quote from
Orwell, albeit postdating HDAS's first cite [from a venery lexicon]
by 19 years:

1935 'G. ORWELL' Clergyman's Daughter ii. 109 Flo and Charlie would
probably 'jack off' if they got the chance of a lift.

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 03:00:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:00:45 -0500
Subject: Hot and Sour (1931, 1964)
Message-ID: 

HOT AND SOUR SOUP--19,600 Google hits, 4,320 Google Groups hits

   OED has...well, it doesn't have "hot and sour soup."  It doesn't even have "hot and sour."
   I might go to a lecture of the NY Culinary Historians by someone from FLAVOR AND FORTUNE magazine.  The F&F people probably contributed an entry on this to the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, but here are the ProQuest database results.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Display Ad 64 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 17, 1931. p. 26 (1 page):
  _Chutnies_
(...)  From sweet to hot and sour...with mangoes...Tirhoot...tamarinds...fruity!

   How to Solve an Oriental Eating Puzzle; Learn Chinese, Adopt a Relative, or Get to Know the Waiter
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 21, 1964. p. 20 (1 page):
   It is fascinating to note how many travelers return from their gastronomic tours of Europe with a surfeir of la grande cuisine and a haunting hunger for the simplicity of a hot and sour or wonton soup, Peking duck or a quick saute of Chinese-style vegetables and meat.

   Feasting, Chinese Style; Chinese Feast
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 12, 1965. p. SM90 (2 pages)
FIRST PAGE:  HOT AND SOUR SOUP
(Recipe--ed.)

   Dining Out in the City
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1966. p. 43 (1 page:
   Lotus Eaters Fifth, 182 Fifth Avenue (between 22d and 23d Streets),...
   There are numerous insidiously good dishes such as a delectable pork ball and spinach soup; hot and sour soup; chicken with special sauce (a thin soy sauce with scallions and ginger); ginger-flavored shrimp, and spiced shredded chicken.

   Special Indeed Is the Empress
By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Dec 17, 1967. p. K8 (1 page)  :
   At lunch one day I found the wonton soup unexceptional, but a hot and sour soup tasted in the evening was alive with flavor and zip.

   Relief May Be in Sight For Those Who Suffer From Chinese Cooking; Monosodium Glutamate Zeroed In on by Some Scientists As Cause of Mysterious Malady
By EARL C. GOTTSCHALK JR. Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 11, 1968. p. 20 (1 page):
   The researchers said they ate Chinese food for beakfast, lunch and dinner "with the enthusiastic cooperation of the Shanghai Cafe," until the search had been narrowed to either hot and sour soup or wonton soup.

   Two Chinese dishes to try at home; A savory appetizer and a peppery soup Pot Stickers Hot and Sour Soup
By Lou Seibert Pappas Special to The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 9, 1978. p. 19 (1 page)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 03:37:48 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:37:48 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"gerries"=20for=20o?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ld=20persons?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/17/04 1:36:25 PM, wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM writes:


> I often heard "wrinklies" while living in England (1987-97).
> Wendalyn Nichols
>
> At 11:39 PM 3/15/04 -0800, you wrote:
> >Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
> >20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
> >hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
> >"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
> >
> >Geoff Nunberg
>
>

As I recall, the novel CLOCKWORK ORANGE used a made-up term based on Russian:
old people were called Starries. I always liked that.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 04:19:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:19:20 -0500
Subject: Pandoro (1950); Chicken Tenders (1984, 1986)
Message-ID: 

PANDORO

PANDORO--24,000 Google hits, 4,460 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Anyone heard of "pandoro"?
... baking molds". The photo that matched it said "Pandoro mold". It looks ... recipe
is Italian, too. Does Pandoro ring a bell out there? Fran
rec.food.cooking - Mar 9, 2004 by Franfogel - View Thread (9 articles)

   I was doing a regular browse of rec.food.cooking when I spotted the above.
   OED has...well, it doesn't have "pandoro."  OED IS ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE ON FOOD!


(GOOGLE)
Panettone & Pandoro
Metal, glass and disposable molds for Pandoro and Panettone, old traditional
Italian Favorites. Panettone and Pandoro. One of America's ...
fantes.com/panettone_pandoro.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

Pandoro and Panettone cakes (Breads)
It just isn't Christmas in Italy without a Pandoro or Panettone Christams
cake. Christmas in Italy is rich in traditions. In most ...
www.cookingwithpatty.com/Italian/Pandoro/index.php - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Article 10 -- No Title
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24, 1950. p. 94 (1 page):
   Genoese eat Genoa-style panettone; Milanese, Milan-style, and SIenese, pan-forter--"really a very hard cake of honey and nuts."  Pandoro--golden bread--is light and yellow, done with lots of eggs; this is savored by the Veronese.

   Food News: Shops Offer Yule Pastry; Oddest of All
By JUNE OWEN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1957. p. 47 (1 page):
   Panettone, the sweet, yeast-dough bread with eggs, white raisins and chopped citron, is another Italian Christmas sweet baked at Bellardi & Stasi.  Canepa Brothers, 150 Sullivan Street, has the panettone, which is Milanese, and also Genoese pandolce (no eggs but many pignolia nuts and a heavier texture) and Venetian pandoro (butter and eggs but no ctiron or raisins).  All are 80 cents a pound.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHICKEN TENDERS

CHICKEN TENDERS--43,600 Google hits, 1,830 Google Groups hits

   Everyone knows that "chicken tenders" was coined by Burger King in 1986 to combat "Chicken McNuggets."
   However, I checked it out.  A Washington, DC restaurant served "chicken tenders" in 1984, before the Burger King product.
   Is "chicken tenders" now generic?


(FACTIVA)
THE REVIEWS
16,062 words
23 September 1984
The Washington Post
(...)
-- RZ HOUSTON'S
1065 Wisconsin Ave. NW.
338-7760. L $5.25-$10.95, D $5.25-10.95. L, D daily. AE,
MC, V. Full bar.

Houston's is a spiffy-looking, brick-walled pub and restaurant with reasonable prices, warm, accommodating service and a simple menu that offers reliably good food -- adequate burgers, lean and meaty ribs, light and boneless fried chicken ("chicken tenders"), and a good prime-rib-with- salad a bargain at $10.95. The menu offers just two desserts, a cobbler and a brownie, but they're tops. The bad news is that there can be lots of standing and waiting for tables -- wear comfortable shoes.


(FACTIVA)
Richman on Restaurants
1,267 words
17 February 1985
The Washington Post
W30
(...)
If barbecue isn't your bag, consider chicken tenders (available in appetizer and entree portions), strips of succulent white meat well fried in a golden-light, crusty batter.


(FACTIVA)
McDonald's, Burger King play chicken
Nancy Millman
715 words
28 February 1986
Chicago Sun-Times
FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL
44

Although its competitors were expecting Burger King to move its answer to Chicken McNuggets into national distribution next month, the Miami-based fast-food chain says it is not yet ready to roll.

Chicken Tenders, as the Burger King item is called, is still in test market in the chain's hometown of Miami, as well as Norfolk, Va., and Boston.

"We're looking for a late spring or early summer expansion if we do go national with the product," a company spokeswoman said.

The test marketing covers 140 stores, and is being conducted without any advertising support.

Chicken McNuggets have been an extremely successful item for McDonald's, which quickly expanded the breaded chicken pieces into its stores in Canada and Japan.

Look for Burger King to go for a quality sales message against McDonald's when it does blast Chicken Tenders into the marketplace with a major ad campaign.

Remember the "Parts is parts" commercials Wendy's used to differentiate its chicken breast sandwich from the competitors' products?

Burger King is stressing the 100 percent breast meat content of its chicken pieces. In the test markets, Chicken Tenders are selling for $1.59 for 6 pieces. Chicago McDonald's prices for Chicken McNuggets are comparable.

The aggressive advertising stance that Burger King took to launch the battle of the burgers - broiling vs. frying - may show up again this year but the subject will be vegetable oil vs. animal fat.

The No. 2 hamburger chain is making a play toward the health and calorie-consciousness of American families by changing its frying formula.

New Chicken Tenders will be fried in 100 percent vegetable oil, as will all fried products with the exception of potatoes beginning March 1. (...)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HOUSTON'S; 1065 Wisconsin Ave. NW. 338-7760. L $5.25-$10.95, D $5.25-10.95. L, D daily. AE, MC, V. Full bar.
MGB. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 23, 1984. p. 267 (1 page)
(It's here, but the original page is shown, with small type.  See FACTIVA--ed.)

   Richman on Restaurants; HOUSTON'S
Mark and Gail Barnett. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 24, 1985. p. SM24 (2 pages)


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark CHICKEN TENDERS
Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: chicken pieces. FIRST USE: 19851128. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860330
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74171806
Filing Date May 31, 1991
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition April 7, 1992
Registration Number 1785694
Registration Date August 3, 1993
Owner (REGISTRANT) Burger King Corporation CORPORATION FLORIDA 17777 Old Cutler Road Miami FLORIDA 33157
(LAST LISTED OWNER) BURGER KING BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT DELAWARE THE WATERFORD BLDG. 5505 BLUE LAGOON DRIVE MIAMI FLORIDA 33126
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record JAMES M PACIOUS
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CHICKEN" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20030812.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20030812
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark ABNER'S "FAMOUS CHICKEN TENDERS"
Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, baseball caps. FIRST USE: 19930125. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930125
IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant services providing chicken and other foods complimenting chicken and drinks. FIRST USE: 19930125. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930125
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 260307
Serial Number 75165868
Filing Date September 13, 1996
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition July 29, 1997
Registration Number 2106906
Registration Date October 21, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) White, James Abner INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 430 South Lamar Oxford MISSISSIPPI 38655
Attorney of Record PAIGE B RAYBURN
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "FAMOUS CHICKEN TENDERS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark THE ROCKIN' CHICKEN TENDERS AND BUFFALO WINGS
Goods and Services IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant services
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78231789
Filing Date March 31, 2003
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition February 17, 2004
Owner (APPLICANT) Casa Holdings, LLC CORPORATION ALABAMA 2105 Drake Avenue Hunstville ALABAMA 35805
Attorney of Record Kimberly Till Powell
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CHICKEN TENDERS AND BUFFALO WINGS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar 18 02:31:29 2004
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:31:29 -0500
Subject: Whack
Message-ID: 

Regarding "crack is whack," I remember hearing it in New York City during
the anti-crack campaign years of the mid-1980s. The speaker was a recent
college grad who had entered publishing.

And just this morning I overheard a Manhattan security guard offer another
usage of "whack" to refer to a white woman "who thinks she's black."

Here's a related online usage from 1999:
http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-3B56-16E0D62B-384592A5-prod1

David


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 04:59:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:59:13 -0500
Subject: Vigoron (1988)
Message-ID: 

VIGORON + NICARAGUA--389 Google hits,38 Google Groups hits

   "Vigoron" is a national dish of Nicaragua.  I didn't see it at all in Panama.
   OED has...well, it's not in OED.
  Last one before library closing...No connection to the Viagra-like drug.


(FACTIVA)
MIAMI NICARAGUANS REALIZE THEIR EXILE IN U.S. MAY BE PERMANENT
GARY MARX
ORLANDO SENTINEL
905 words
21 July 1988
The Seattle Times
FIRST
A10

MIAMI - As sunlight faded to darkness, hundreds of Nicaraguan exiles gathered at Our Lady of Divine Providence church to catch up on local news and listen to an inspirational leader, Monsignor Pablo Antonio Vega.

Young men dressed in guayabera shirts, old women in patterned Nicaraguan dresses and young children in Miami Dolphins football jerseys mingled outside the modern church, bantering in Spanish and eating cacao and vigoron, two favorite Nicaraguan dishes.


(FACTIVA)
Managua's free market overflows, offering...Plenty amid the poverty // From food to clothes, Mercado Oriental has it
BRYANNA LATOOF
824 words
14 September 1988
St. Petersburg Times
CITY
19A
(...)
A favorite street dish is vigoron, an interesting meat and vegetable concoction served on a banana leaf which is held in the palm as a plate. The first layer is a salad made with yucca, cabbage, onion and vinegar, usually with cooked meat mixed in. On top of it all is chicharron, or fried pork skins. Locals spoon the stuff into their mouths with their fingers.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 06:57:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:57:00 EST
Subject: Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
Message-ID: 

INFO-GANDA--50 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits
INFOGANDA--14 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits

   "Infoganda" (INFOrmation + propaGANDA) was mentioned on THE DAILY SHOW
last night at 11 p.m.  Catch the repeat tonight at 7 p.m. if you missed it, on
Comedy Central.
   THE DAILY SHOW reported that the government produced its own fake news
report about Medicare, and the "infoganda" made in on real tv news.  "Fake news?"
Jon Stewart asked his audience.  His "senior ethical correspondent" (everyone
on the show is a senior correspondent) joked that their jobs were being
threatened.
   "Infoganda" is not on the Wordspy.  But one of these days it probably will
be, and...I'll still get no credit.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: just for a laugh
... The "symptoms" page is pretty weak, suggesting that one of the "warning
signs"
indicates a problem, but I've seen similar alcohol infoganda. -- -Mike List
alt.drugs.pot - Dec 3, 1998 by Mike List - View Thread (9 articles)

Re: Choosing snow tires
... technical). They also carry other brands -- and their web page includes
prices, FAQs, tips, and manufacturers' specs/infoganda. ...
rec.autos.driving - Nov 13, 1996 by Wilderness Werkes! - View Thread (8
articles)

Re: Chilly Future for Boys (Take Your *CHILD* To Work Day)
... that rationalized focusing on girls, and relegated boys to stay at school
where
they might feed on Ms.-Foundation nationally-sponsored infoganda: "What about
...
soc.men - Apr 19, 1995 by Tom Revay - View Thread (112 articles)

Re: MS Access - alleged Btrieve importing ability (was: Is MS ...
... It does have this ability... for Paradox 3.X Of course, I just upgraded
to 4.0
a few weeks ago, and none of the Access Infoganda mentioned this limitation.
...
comp.os.ms-windows.apps - Feb 2, 1993 by Philip Bohannon - View Thread (4
articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 09:10:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:10:26 EST
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
Message-ID: 

AND HALF OF GEORGIA--234 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

   One more Americanism while I do the laundry.
   This is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.
Fred Shapiro?
   I haven't re-subscribed to Augusta Archives to research this.  It''s
interesting that Newspaperarchive--that contains the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION--doesn't
have it earlier.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Commonwealth - 6/13/1913
...parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA" signifies the
limits OF the.....for a year I traveled all over HELL: and HALF OF GEORGIA after
them stars, and never.....FOB mm Love OF Humanity Should plant Love OF Noise
GAMES INSTEAD OF GUNS State Fire.....we also now urge a thorough cleaningtip OF
all rubbish and a restriction OF the use..
Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Friday, June 13, 1913  950 k

Stevens Point Journal - 6/14/1913
...for a year I traveled all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA after them stars,
and never.....parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA"
signifies the limits OF the.....early and prOFusely, pinch OFf the ends OF HALF the
branches, so that the energy OF the.....manure, and set the plants in the ground
HALF an inch deeper than they were in the..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, June 14, 1913  906 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 10:29:49 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:29:49 EST
Subject: Creeks don't rise (1892); Ugly as homemade sin (1890); Licked red
 off your candy
Message-ID: 

CREEKS DON'T RISE

   Gerald Cohen and David Wilton based asked about this, but I couldn't find
a better answer in the archives.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Portsmouth Times - 8/6/1892
...no preventing providence and the CREEKS DON'T RISE" he will get into the
new.....f people that will go out to hear Iiim. iVe DON'T know about this; we
never aw it tried.....accommodating and painstaking official. We DON'T knowin
what business Mr. McColm will..
Portsmouth, Ohio   Saturday, August 06, 1892  715 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN

   Nothing beats homemade.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("homemade")
Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN.' "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....L Voyce My two them it is all right with me AS long AS they
act like responsible citizens.....of Ewen High School and is eniployed AS
secretary at the Dynamatic Division of..
Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  794 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/16/1896
...that wus lazy AS er fattenin hog an UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. 'Twus that way
she got her come.....uppance. Besides keepin her po' AS Job's turkey he turned
out ter be AS mean.....enthusiASm of horsemanship The motion wAS AS unlike AS
possible to Blacky's coblike.....yo' eoul, she Icved to be waited on same AS
ef she owned 20 niggers. AS I started ter..
Newark, Ohio Sunday, August 16, 1896  857 k

Gazette And Bulletin - 1/24/1945
...wai described AS red middleaged and UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. (Erlenbush wAS
in the thick of.....is somewhat of a gamble, with the weather AS the .chief
determining factor in suen U.S.....of acres of land jsed by the government AS a
site tor the Pennsylvania Ordnance Works..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 24, 1945  856 k

Daily Times News - 1/13/1972
...Strong AS an ox. .Play possum. .UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. .Hook, line and SIN
ker. .Work.....candidates and those in office is not AS simple AS publicly
identifying private.....identify themselves with private interests AS long AS
those interests are not in.....Parting Shots Remember, only a country AS rich AS
the United States could afford to..
Burlington, North Carolina   Thursday, January 13, 1972  670 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 12/11/1967
...works with." jThis means, ''She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....of the chores performed I by WAShington. i AS far AS many
millions of citizens are.....us to keep an eye on what we spend at home AS well AS
that which we. spend in WAShington.....and he gets an allowance, which is
almost AS much AS my salary, but he never seems to..
Holland, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  856 k

Lima News - 1/18/1972
...If Olivia de Havilland were AS UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN, still she'd be hard
to resist.....your mental machinery. This means marijuana AS well AS harder
stuff. And even if you can.....of trouble over this question. I'll put it AS
simply AS possible. Is it fair for a woman..
Lima, Ohio Tuesday, January 18, 1972  585 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....service, every Sunday ette. (morning AS well AS training Both
Miss Adams and Mr. i.....help you find and claim the Bible promises AS yours,
bringing you joy and peace and..
Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 11, 1967  915 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("home made")
Lima News - 9/14/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....AJTSWEM Blood Tonic la It possible to your ,HOME MADE blood tonic
so long AS to become.....10 'bbag 19c Potatoes Quality, Feck 43c HOME MADE
Cookies 2 do, 25c Valley Maid Oleo.....The benefits of advertiSINg had MADE
themselves manifest in each step forward..
Lima, Ohio Monday, September 14, 1936  763 k

Middletown Times Herald - 3/22/1932
...for leather scrappers, and both are UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN. tiring the
first seven Yankees.....he's bathed and dressed and headed for HOME. The boys have
but two in common. Both.....GIANTS TAKE T1CFJGU3 LOS ANGKU23 Giants MADE It
two in a. rov over Uiff Detroit.....runs chASed across the plate. Gehj rig's
HOME run with two men on. wAS the bissest..
Middletown, New York   Tuesday, March 22, 1932  811 k

Lafayette Advertiser - 12/20/1890
...have, ma'am1. Ai boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN an' I jest gave it
to him. I.....s immensely rich.. do you Clerk is old and UGLY, and wifo is
young and York v' WASTED.....awoke to consciousness again. He wAS at his HOME in
Tomsburg. Two sweet faces were.....foot upon the -sand, go v Wlien Sim had
MADE known what his sister had eaid, another..
Lafayette, Louisiana Saturday, December 20, 1890  861 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 9/16/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....a threa-day visit at tea William Btissell HOME. Sprague Duke
Harrison MADE a buSINess I.....2 Forearm bone. 3 Observed. 4 Bird's HOME. 5
Bundle. 6 SINce. 7 Fiber knots. Gives.....Monte Blaine i air. There wAS a
missionary, HOME f deed he had once been heard to say..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 16, 1936  895 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/22/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I Jest give it to
him.....Parker travels alone, and wAS on his way HOME after a swing
around-the circle, his.....of One Dollar and upwards received Loans MADE on short and
long time upon rea state.....Epiphany. Some time ago Dr. Burtsell wAS MADE
defender of the marriage tie, being the..
Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, July 22, 1890  1184 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/25/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yor wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I jesi give it to
him.....took all the snap out t' Samson, Johnnie A HOME MADE air cut, Yonkere
Statesman.....intelligence and morality of tho people. HOME of our little
cities are beyond.....in a considerable degree by the charges MADE against the
defendant.and hence the..
Sandusky, Ohio Friday, July 25, 1890  1122 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
WHO LICKED THE RED OFF YOUR CANDY?

LICKED THE RED OFF + CANDY--75 Google hits, 144 Google Groups hits

   Is this one from a song title?

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Playground Daily News - 1/20/1969
...and THE right thinking voters LICKED THE RED OFF Wallace and LeMav's CANDY
and put.....course, that wrong thinking, hard headed, RED necked, no account
George Wallace and his.....group for anoTHEr term, Webber shrugged OFF THE
impressive growth of THE organization.....worth of diamonds. THE 42year-old Kamm
took OFF in hot pursuit. THE thief, seeing that he..
Fort Walton Beach, Florida Monday, January 20, 1969  729 k

Playground Daily News - 10/21/1968
...I said. "You act like somebody LICKED THE RED OFF your CANDY." "It's this
election said.....7 Muse of poetry 8 Crown of head 9 Loss of RED blood cells
10 Only 11 Growls 1 fi_Footcd.....later In THE day TAURUS (Apr. 20-May Now Is
THE time to get to THE core of your health.....YOU Ml JEFE, BIG WHAT.' MY CHICO
HAS ROBBED THE SILVER MINE? OWNER OF THE MINr. BAILEY By..
Fort Walton Beach, Florida Monday, October 21, 1968  778 k


(WWW.LOC.GOV)
Big man in country music [sound recording] / Little Jimmy Dickens.
New York, N.Y. : Columbia, [1968?]
1 sound disc : analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ; 12 in.

Who licked the "red" off your candy : what really drives violence in America
and what you can do to stop it / Richard C. Staver.
Fernandina Beach, Fla. : Staver Productions, c2001.
229 p. ; 21 cm.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 12:59:26 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:59:26 -0500
Subject: Nothing beats "homemade" (was Ugly as homemade sin (1890))
In-Reply-To: <141.24af7218.2d8ad41d@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

I am a more frequent user of the variant "homemade shit" myself,
though not with "ugly." It wonders me that "homemade" is simply an
aggrandizer which can be inserted in the slot indicated in the as X
as _ Y formula (alternatively Xer than _ Y), e.g., ugly as (homemade)
sin, dumber'n (homemade) shit, with perhaps some semantic
restrictions (no count nouns?), e.g., *as big as a homemade horse and
some pragmatic ones (no complimentary or even neutral expressions?),
e.g., *as easy as homemade pie.

I suspect a connection with "downhome" or even simply "home," which
suggests authenticity or nitty-gritty, so that such expression tell
us that somebody is not just as dumb as any old (maybe even [shudder]
storebought) shit but as dumb as the real thing (i.e., homemade).

dInIs


UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN

    Nothing beats homemade.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("homemade")
Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN.' "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....L Voyce My two them it is all right with me AS
long AS they
act like responsible citizens.....of Ewen High School and is eniployed AS
secretary at the Dynamatic Division of..
Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  794 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/16/1896
...that wus lazy AS er fattenin hog an UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. 'Twus that way
she got her come.....uppance. Besides keepin her po' AS Job's turkey he turned
out ter be AS mean.....enthusiASm of horsemanship The motion wAS AS unlike AS
possible to Blacky's coblike.....yo' eoul, she Icved to be waited on same AS
ef she owned 20 niggers. AS I started ter..
Newark, Ohio Sunday, August 16, 1896  857 k

Gazette And Bulletin - 1/24/1945
...wai described AS red middleaged and UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. (Erlenbush wAS
in the thick of.....is somewhat of a gamble, with the weather AS the .chief
determining factor in suen U.S.....of acres of land jsed by the government AS a
site tor the Pennsylvania Ordnance Works..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 24, 1945  856 k

Daily Times News - 1/13/1972
...Strong AS an ox. .Play possum. .UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. .Hook, line and SIN
ker. .Work.....candidates and those in office is not AS simple AS publicly
identifying private.....identify themselves with private interests AS long AS
those interests are not in.....Parting Shots Remember, only a country
AS rich AS
the United States could afford to..
Burlington, North Carolina   Thursday, January 13, 1972  670 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 12/11/1967
...works with." jThis means, ''She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....of the chores performed I by WAShington. i AS far AS many
millions of citizens are.....us to keep an eye on what we spend at
home AS well AS
that which we. spend in WAShington.....and he gets an allowance, which is
almost AS much AS my salary, but he never seems to..
Holland, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  856 k

Lima News - 1/18/1972
...If Olivia de Havilland were AS UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN, still she'd be hard
to resist.....your mental machinery. This means marijuana AS well AS harder
stuff. And even if you can.....of trouble over this question. I'll put it AS
simply AS possible. Is it fair for a woman..
Lima, Ohio Tuesday, January 18, 1972  585 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....service, every Sunday ette. (morning AS well AS
training Both
Miss Adams and Mr. i.....help you find and claim the Bible promises AS yours,
bringing you joy and peace and..
Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 11, 1967  915 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("home made")
Lima News - 9/14/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....AJTSWEM Blood Tonic la It possible to your ,HOME MADE blood tonic
so long AS to become.....10 'bbag 19c Potatoes Quality, Feck 43c HOME MADE
Cookies 2 do, 25c Valley Maid Oleo.....The benefits of advertiSINg had MADE
themselves manifest in each step forward..
Lima, Ohio Monday, September 14, 1936  763 k

Middletown Times Herald - 3/22/1932
...for leather scrappers, and both are UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN. tiring the
first seven Yankees.....he's bathed and dressed and headed for HOME.
The boys have
but two in common. Both.....GIANTS TAKE T1CFJGU3 LOS ANGKU23 Giants MADE It
two in a. rov over Uiff Detroit.....runs chASed across the plate. Gehj rig's
HOME run with two men on. wAS the bissest..
Middletown, New York   Tuesday, March 22, 1932  811 k

Lafayette Advertiser - 12/20/1890
...have, ma'am1. Ai boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN an' I jest gave it
to him. I.....s immensely rich.. do you Clerk is old and UGLY, and wifo is
young and York v' WASTED.....awoke to consciousness again. He wAS at
his HOME in
Tomsburg. Two sweet faces were.....foot upon the -sand, go v Wlien Sim had
MADE known what his sister had eaid, another..
Lafayette, Louisiana Saturday, December 20, 1890  861 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 9/16/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....a threa-day visit at tea William Btissell HOME. Sprague Duke
Harrison MADE a buSINess I.....2 Forearm bone. 3 Observed. 4 Bird's HOME. 5
Bundle. 6 SINce. 7 Fiber knots. Gives.....Monte Blaine i air. There wAS a
missionary, HOME f deed he had once been heard to say..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 16, 1936  895 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/22/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I Jest give it to
him.....Parker travels alone, and wAS on his way HOME after a swing
around-the circle, his.....of One Dollar and upwards received Loans
MADE on short and
long time upon rea state.....Epiphany. Some time ago Dr. Burtsell wAS MADE
defender of the marriage tie, being the..
Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, July 22, 1890  1184 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/25/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yor wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I jesi give it to
him.....took all the snap out t' Samson, Johnnie A HOME MADE air cut, Yonkere
Statesman.....intelligence and morality of tho people. HOME of our little
cities are beyond.....in a considerable degree by the charges MADE against the
defendant.and hence the..
Sandusky, Ohio Friday, July 25, 1890  1122 k


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Mar 18 14:40:33 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:40:33 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
Message-ID: 

Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
for a higher price).

FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 14:42:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:42:17 -0500
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:10 AM -0500 3/18/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>AND HALF OF GEORGIA--234 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

There's also (from at least one country song) "go/walk through all of
hell and half of Texas", which of course puts half of Georgia to
shame.  Worth checking for first cites?

larry horn

>    One more Americanism while I do the laundry.
>    This is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.
>Fred Shapiro?
>    I haven't re-subscribed to Augusta Archives to research this.  It''s
>interesting that Newspaperarchive--that contains the ATLANTA
>CONSTITUTION--doesn't
>have it earlier.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Daily Commonwealth - 6/13/1913
>...parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA" signifies the
>limits OF the.....for a year I traveled all over HELL: and HALF OF
>GEORGIA after
>them stars, and never.....FOB mm Love OF Humanity Should plant Love OF Noise
>GAMES INSTEAD OF GUNS State Fire.....we also now urge a thorough
>cleaningtip OF
>all rubbish and a restriction OF the use..
>Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Friday, June 13, 1913  950 k
>
>Stevens Point Journal - 6/14/1913
>...for a year I traveled all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA after them stars,
>and never.....parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA"
>signifies the limits OF the.....early and prOFusely, pinch OFf the
>ends OF HALF the
>branches, so that the energy OF the.....manure, and set the plants
>in the ground
>HALF an inch deeper than they were in the..
>Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, June 14, 1913  906 k


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Mar 18 16:18:16 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:18:16 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <40596E91.5678.9294A03@localhost>
Message-ID: 

>Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
>morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
>MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
>flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
>Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
>for a higher price).
>
>FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
>
>Joanne
>Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
>Merriam-Webster, Inc.
 ~~~~~~~
My recollection of a discussion of this construction on ADS-L a year or so
ago, places it around the Pittsburgh area.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 16:38:10 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:38:10 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:18 AM 3/18/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
> >morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
> >MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
> >flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
> >Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
> >for a higher price).
> >
> >FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
> >
> >Joanne
> >Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
> >Merriam-Webster, Inc.
>  ~~~~~~~
>My recollection of a discussion of this construction on ADS-L a year or so
>ago, places it around the Pittsburgh area.
>A. Murie

Oh, it's much broader than that--all through the South Midland and
increasingly in the North Midland and West Midland (west of the
Mississippi) as well.  The question is whether it's also spread to New
England, in native use or (at least for now) in the speech of transplanted
Midlanders.  You might check out where this car dealer has come from, if
he's a "newcomer" to the area.

A particularly silly comment was made to me recently, by a prescriptivist
ESL teacher, herself from Pittsburgh.  She flew into a rage upon hearing a
colleague (also from Pitt) use needs + p.p. and then claimed that it was
brought into the region by coal miners from Slavic countries, who
"transliterated" (her word) a similar construction into English.  It is
authentically English, of course, and common in much of the British Isles.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 18 17:02:15 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:02:15 -0800
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <40596E91.5678.9294A03@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

> Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
> morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
> MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
> flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
> Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
> for a higher price).
>
> FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
here in california!  one of our grad students, laura staum, caught the
following in a 3/12/04 e-mail memo from our department's administrator:

>> ... or [if] you have an old cpu box/monitor sitting around that needs
>> removed...

we were pretty sure the author was a california native, and so he is,
according to his response to a query from me this morning:

> I grew up in west Los Angeles; my mother came from Clay Center, Kansas
> (her family were dust bowl immigrants to California, over the late
> thirties to early forties, she came out in 1940).
>
> My father came from New York State, his family moved all over New York
> when he was young, so the particular town that he came from escapes
> me.

i wonder where he picked up the construction.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 17:26:29 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:26:29 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <01985970-78FE-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 09:02 AM 3/18/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
>
>>Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
>>morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
>>MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
>>flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
>>Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
>>for a higher price).
>>
>>FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
>
>maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
>band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
>here in california!  one of our grad students, laura staum, caught the
>following in a 3/12/04 e-mail memo from our department's administrator:
>
>>>... or [if] you have an old cpu box/monitor sitting around that needs
>>>removed...
>
>we were pretty sure the author was a california native, and so he is,
>according to his response to a query from me this morning:
>
>>I grew up in west Los Angeles; my mother came from Clay Center, Kansas
>>(her family were dust bowl immigrants to California, over the late
>>thirties to early forties, she came out in 1940).
>>
>>My father came from New York State, his family moved all over New York
>>when he was young, so the particular town that he came from escapes
>>me.
>
>i wonder where he picked up the construction.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Its spread westward began quite early, I believe, certainly to Kansas, and
since Depression-era settlement in California was in large part from the
economically-depressed Midland, I wouldn't be surprised if many in-migrants
had this construction.  It may have been diluted (or even suppressed) by
the coming of later waves from elsewhere, but it's obviously still there.

I was quite surprised a few years ago to hear my uncle and aunt (brother
and sister) using "positive anymore" in southern California--on separate
occasions, and not in each other's company.  She went to L.A. and San Diego
from Minnesota (negative 'anymore' country) in 1940 to get work, and her
brother went to L.A. in about 1955 (five other siblings had gone there even
earlier, in the '30s).  They had to have picked up the form out there,
apparently from other transplants from the Midwest.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 18:52:13 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:52:13 -0500
Subject: A Posting on "Windy City" Not by Barry Popik
Message-ID: 

Last year I decided that it was indeed terrible that the Chicago Public
Library had a totally wrong story of the origin of the term "Windy City"
on their website, and I started e-mailing them with the facts unearthed by
Barry Popik, urging them to correct their site.  After a long struggle on
my part, the CPL has actually changed the entry.  The bad news is that the
new entry is only slightly better than the old one, leaving the Charles A.
Dana story pretty much intact, and not even mentioning Barry and his great
discoveries on this term.  The Chicago Historical Society apparently had a
hand in this pseudo-correction.

This sad situation can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.chipublib.org/008subject/005genref/faqwindy.html

Before I continue the futile attempt to fix this mess, let me pose two
questions for Barry whose answers will help me formulate my response to
the CPL:

1. Is there any basis whatsoever for the following statement:

"In the early part of the nineteenth century, Chicago promoters went up
and down the East Coast loudly promoting Chicago as an excellent place to
invest. Detractors claimed they were full of wind."

2. Is there any validity to the claim that Charles A. Dana popularized
"Windy City," although clearly not coining it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 22:44:54 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:44:54 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: Audiotapes of English dialects
Message-ID: 

Another listserv I'm on is looking for audiotapes of English
dialects.  Hughes and Trudgill has been cited on Britain, plus the
following George Mason site, which I don't think is very good.  Can anyone
recommend a better collection for American dialects, besides the bits and
pieces we've all collected from "Talk of the Nation," etc.?  I'm not sure
we have one!
(Another nice British tape is "Urban Voices," by Foulkes and Docherty.)

Beverly Flanigan

>X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:46:55 -0800
>From: "Stefka H. Marinova-Todd " 
>Subject: Re: Audiotapes of English dialects
>To: Barbara Pearson 
>Cc: Kelley Sacco , info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4)
>  Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax)
>Sender: 
>List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.0.2 by LetterRip Software, LLC.
>List-Unsubscribe: 
>X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu
>X-PMX-Stop:  Thu Mar 18 16:50:47 2004
>X-PMX-Start: Thu Mar 18 16:50:47 2004
>X-PMX-Version: 4.5.0.90627, Antispam-Core: 4.0.4.90552, Antispam-Data:
>2004.3.18.94674 (pm7)
>X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html
>X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, PureMessage (score=0, required 5)
>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__IN_REP_TO 0,
>__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __MOZILLA_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0,
>__MIME_VERSION 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0,
>X_ACCEPT_LANG 0, __USER_AGENT 0, __REFERENCES 0, SUSPECT_LIST_HEADERS 0,
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>__MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, REFERENCES 0.000, IN_REP_TO 0, USER_AGENT 0.000'
>
>Dear Dr. Pearson,
>
>There is also a web-page (http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/) called Speech
>Accent Archive hosted at the George Mason University which contains a
>collection of audio-files of various foreign accents of English, including
>about 60 samples of English dialects from across the US, as well as
>Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other English speaking countries. In
>all the samples, the speakers are asked to read the same paragraph in
>English, which provides for a good comparison across accents/dialects.
>
>I hope this is of help.
>Best regards,
>Stefka Marinova-Todd
>
>Barbara Pearson wrote:
>>Dear Infochildes,
>>I've been asked by a non-linguist who is trying to organize
>>a program on language awareness for an audiotape of
>>different English dialects.  (She's in the US, but I guess
>>if there's one of British dialects, that might be useful,
>>too.)
>>She's already familiar with the video "American Tongues,"
>>which would have been my first response for her.
>>Any ideas?
>>Thanks,
>>Barbara
>>
>>*****************************************
>>Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph. D.
>>Project Manager, Research Assistant
>>Dept. of Communication Disorders
>>University of Massachusetts
>>Amherst MA 01003
>>413.545.5023
>>fax: 545.0803
>>bpearson at comdis.umass.edu
>>http://www.umass.edu/aae/
>>
>>---
>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>
>--
>____________________________________________
>Stefka H. Marinova-Todd, Assistant Professor
>School of Audiology and Speech Sciences
>University of British Columbia
>5804 Fairview Avenue
>Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 1Z3
>tel: (604) 822-0276
>fax: (604) 822-6569
>


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 19 04:51:40 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:51:40 -0500
Subject: Only way to fly
Message-ID: 

Someone just told me about used books bargains at Amazon and remarked that "it's the only way to fly".

What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although Google finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only way to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"


Seán Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.

http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:30:08 2004
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:30:08 +0800
Subject: Only way to fly
In-Reply-To: <200403190458.i2J4wlt7019632@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: 

SF => What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although
Google =
SF => finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only
way =
SF => to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane =
SF => predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"

I recall Western Airlines using that slogan years ago.

Here's a data point:

Wally the bird - Commercial spokes-bird for Western Airlines who made
his debut in 1955. Wally is a rather big beaked, plump yellow bird who
sits on the outside tail wings of the Western Airline luxury flights.
Sipping champagne as the airplane sailed through the sky, Wally recites
his famous quotation: "It's the O-O-ONLY way to fly!" (the ad campaign had
him flying both propeller and later jet planes). Wally was designed by
John Urie, assistant  animator at John Hubley Storyboard Productions. Les
Goldman originated the phrase "It's the only way to fly." The campaign was
created by Buchanan Advertising Agency. Reportedly, Wally's derived his
name from the phrase "Western Airlines Loves You."    TRIVIA NOTE:  On
episode #9 "Witch or Wife" on the occult sitcom BEWITCHED, Endora the
witch (Agnes Moorehead) spoofs the Western Airlines ad when she snags a
ride on a jetliner. Of course, instead of reserving a seat onboard, she
sits outside the aircraft at the tail fin and sips champagne.  As the
plane soars through the skies, she looks into the camera and says "It's
the only way to fly"

http://www.tvacres.com/birds_canary_wally.htm

Russ


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:32:41 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:32:41 EST
Subject: Only way to fly (1955)
Message-ID: 

(LIBRARY OF CONGRESS)
The only way to fly : the story of Western Airlines, America's senior air
carrier / Robert J. Serling.
1st ed.
Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, 1976.
viii, 494 p., [8] leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY
Goods and Services IC 039. US 105. G & S: TRANSPORTATION OF PASSENGERS BY
AIR. FIRST USE: 19551000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19551000
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72158587
Filing Date December 5, 1962
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0794950
Registration Date August 24, 1965
Owner (REGISTRANT) WESTERN AIRLINES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 6060 AVION
DRIVE LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0531594;0705078;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19850824
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:18:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:18:38 EST
Subject: Only way to fly (1955)
Message-ID: 

(TRADEMARKS)

1 75745526 THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
2 73186530 1131002 THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
3 73186529 1131961 WESTERN AIRLINES, THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
4 72158587 0794950 WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY TARR



Word Mark   WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY
Goods and Services IC 039. US 105. G & S: TRANSPORTATION OF PASSENGERS BY
AIR. FIRST USE: 19551000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19551000
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72158587
Filing Date December 5, 1962
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0794950
Registration Date August 24, 1965
Owner (REGISTRANT) WESTERN AIRLINES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 6060 AVION
DRIVE LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0531594;0705078;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19850824
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From cmuirphd at EXCITE.COM  Fri Mar 19 06:16:45 2004
From: cmuirphd at EXCITE.COM (C Muir)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:16:45 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
Message-ID: 

read today that "flexitarian" was voted most useful word for 2003. however, to describe flexible vegetarians, the word does not make etymological sense. That is, "flexi" and "tarian" simply mean flexible people. And if that is not the case, then we might allow:

Unitarian = one on a strict, single food diet (especially when sick)
Humanitarian = one on a human diet (a cannibal?)

I think Vegeflex is a better word.

CM


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 06:30:58 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:30:58 EST
Subject: Phood (Food + Pharma,
 or nutritionally enhanced food); Chicago Public Library
Message-ID: 

PHOOD

PHOOD--2,520 Google hits, 1,390 Google Groups hits

   Phuck!  I phorgot all about this!
   There aren't a lot of helpful hits for "phood" yet, but there will be.


   18 March 2004, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 1, col. 7:
   _Crunch Time_

_With Food Sales Flat, Nestle_
_Stakes Future on Healthier Fare_

_High-Tech Additives in "Phood"_
   _Help Munchers Keep Fit;_
   _So Far, Slow to Catch On_
(...)
   With the industry facing stagnant sales growth, Nestle is looking for
growth in the intersection of food and pharmaceuticals--a niche of nutritionally
enhanced products known in the business as "phood."


(GOOGLE)
portland imc - 2003.04.22 - Some thoughts on Anarchy and ...
... and pharmaceutical producers- and now our food- shall i say phood-
industry and ... PHARMA
aka the pharmacutical manufacurers association is the group that spent ...
portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/04/61264.shtml - 57k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)(Not really "food" + "pharma")
Re: Phood Phind in Philly
For those of you in the Philadelphia region, or planning to travel to this
area,
there's a VEGAN Chinese restaurant. It's called Harmony, on 9th and Market.
...
rec.food.veg - Nov 16, 1991 by Benash - View Thread (2 articles)  Pizza and
Telecom Inflation (was Phast Phood)
(Previous post about how university town goes from 10,000 to 100,000 on a
football
weekend, and that the pizza company delivers by bicycle.) (A lot of this is
...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 27, 1991 by Dennis Blyth - View Thread (1 article)
Re: Phast Phood
In article  kucharsk at solbourne.com (William
Kucharski)
writes: X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 635, Message 7 of 13 This is ...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 22, 1991 by Robert E. Zabloudil - View Thread (15
articles)  Re: 950-PIZZA (was Phast Phood)
In article  TELECOM Moderator responds to Mike
Shawaluk
: [Moderator's Note: There is no relation whatsoever ...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 18, 1991 by David Ash - View Thread (3 articles)
Call 1-800-TASSELS (Was: Phast Phood)
Jeff Sicherman opened a thread (Digest v11,iss626) about Domino's Pizza using
an
AT&T development intended to route your call to the nearest store for entry
...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 18, 1991 by Donald E. Kimberlin - View Thread (1
article)  Re: Wanted: seafood and view in La Jolla, CA
... spl (the p stands for phood) -- Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7978
(Yes, another
new job!) UCSD Microscope and Imaging Resource/9500 Gilman Drive/La Jolla ...

rec.food.restaurants - Jul 22, 1991 by Steve Lamont - View Thread (4
articles)  Re: My old-bag-you-fool is not a mother. Yet.
... Or has Rutgers decided to franchise, not unlike McDonald's? I can see it
now, their
first weekly special, in neon lights and all: Phood, Pholks, and PhD's! ...
alt.flame - Feb 15, 1991 by Theodore A. Kaldis - View Thread (2 articles)
BlobDemo5 - Blob Manager Demo source (part 5 of 5)
... pharmonic", X"\pheave", X"\pheaven", X"\pheavenward", X"\pheavy",
X"\pheavyweight",
X"\phero", X"\pheroic", X"\phistorian", X"\phistory", X"\phood", X"\phoodlum
...
mod.mac.sources - Feb 1, 1987 by macintosh at felix.UUCP - View Thread (1
article)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO PUBLIC LIBRARY

   Thanks to Fred Shapiro for trying to help.  Fred writes:


   After a long struggle on my part, the CPL has actually changed the entry.
The bad news is that the new entry is only slightly better than the old one,
leaving the Charles A.Dana story pretty much intact, and not even mentioning
Barry and his great
discoveries on this term.  The Chicago Historical Society apparently had a
hand in this pseudo-correction.

This sad situation can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.chipublib.org/008subject/005genref/faqwindy.html

Before I continue the futile attempt to fix this mess, let me pose two
questions for Barry whose answers will help me formulate my response to
the CPL:

1. Is there any basis whatsoever for the following statement:

"In the early part of the nineteenth century, Chicago promoters went up
and down the East Coast loudly promoting Chicago as an excellent place to
invest. Detractors claimed they were full of wind."

2. Is there any validity to the claim that Charles A. Dana popularized
"Windy City," although clearly not coining it?

Fred Shapiro


   The Chicago Public Library's web site has always had TWO contradictory
(and equally wrong) theories.  One is the above, and it does NOT appear to have
changed.  The other is this (still on the site) that claims that Charles Dana
coined and not just popularized it:

Why is Chicago called the Windy City?
Chicago is nicknamed the "Windy City" but not because of its wind speeds. The
average wind velocity here is 10.3 miles an hour. Cities with higher average
velocities include Boston, 13.1; Buffalo, 12.6 and Cleveland, 10.9. The
nickname originated in an editorial of the now defunct New York Sun when Chicago and
New York City were competing to host the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition.
Charles A. Dana, editor of the New York Sun, wrote an editorial telling New
Yorkers to pay no attention to the "nonsensical claims of that windy city. Its
people could not hold a world's fair even if they won it."
Source: Chicago Tribune, 8 June 1970, sA p1.


    To answer Fred:

1.  No, there is no basis whatsoever that "Chicago promoters went up and down
the East Coast...."  As I've shown through meticulous work, the East Coast
newspapers (TIMES, BROOKLYN EAGLE, WASHINGTON POST, etc.) were actually the last
to use "Windy City."  Cincinnati--not on the East Coast--was the first.

2.  "Windy City" was in a SPORTING LIFE city nicknames list in 1886.  Charles
Dana didn't even popularize it when he wrote over three years later.

   For more on the Dana "Windy City" myth, see:

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Reno Evening Gazette - 4/20/1945
...to the nonsensical claims of that WINDY CITY. The people of CHICAGO could
not build a.....are right in asserting that CHARLES A. DANA of the New York
Sun, in coining the CITY.....for the world's Columbian exposition of 1893, said:
pay any attention.....applied to war production. WINDY But Not WINDY CHICAGO
'S CURRENT protest over being..
Reno, Nevada Friday, April 20, 1945  715 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 4/20/1945
...in asserting that CHARLES A. DANA of the NEW YORK Sun, in coining the CITY
designation.....protest over being described as the ''WINDY CITY is a
reminder of the havoc Time.....herein. Rational Advertising Company NEW YORK.
Chicago. San Francisco, Detroit.....attention to the nonsensical claims of that WINDY
CITY. The people of Chicago could not..
Reno, Nevada Friday, April 20, 1945  715 k

Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958
...New York Times 'Do not believe that WINDY CITY.' And that's how CHICAGO
got a nickname.....Mrs. Bestow chuckled, "that CHARLES DANA wrote in
the.....time CHICAGO was a lusty, rapidly-growing CITY, independent and set to take its
place.....the 65th anniversary of the great CHICAGO exhibition. The picnic will
be held..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  606 k

Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958
...New York Times 'Do not believe that WINDY CITY.' And that's how CHICAGO
got a nickname.....I Mrs. Bestow chuckled, "that CHARLES DANA wrote in
the.....time CHICAGO was a lusty, rapidly-growing CITY, independent and set to take its
place.....the 65th anniversary of the gre.it CHICAGO exhibition. The picnic
will be held..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  594 k


   Yes--according to the SOUTHTOWN ECONOMIST of 1958, famous NEW YORK SUN
editor Charles Dana wrote in the NEW YORK _TIMES_.
   When the Chicago Historical Society's research department repeated the
Dana myth to weatherman Al Roker just last month, I wrote to the CHS to explain
itself.  I mentioned that I'd been sending my research to the forthcoming
ENYCLOPEDIA OF CHICAGO (a joint project of the Newberry Library and the CHS) for
free.
   There's been no response in over two weeks--just like it's been for ten
years.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 08:00:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:00:15 EST
Subject: Should kittens born in an oven be called biscuits? (1895)
Message-ID: 

BORN IN AN OVEN--85 Google hits,   64 Google Groups hits

   Variously given as "cat" or  "kitten" or "dog," born in an oven and called
"biscuits" or "cake" or "bread."
   I must caution that this is not a proper way to make hot dogs.


(GOOGLE)
GameDev.net - User Profile - Jimmy The Nose
... Yeah whatever. Eminem is suck and Moby is OK. A cat born in an oven
is not a cake.  ... "Abortion thread closed' closed!?" closed!? ...
www.gamedev.net/profile/profile.asp?id=15938 - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

LH Conklin - Gallery I
... It reminds me of the old adage that says- if a litter of puppies is born
in an
oven, you cannot call them biscuits. 1-3/4x5/8x1/2 inches. 21 grams. $7,500.
...
www.lhconklin.com/Main%20Galleries/Gallery.htm - 28k - Mar 18, 2004 - Cached
- Similar pages

SPBOXING.COM: Boxing News and Fight Merchandise
... are those in the cynical school of journalism who say that ever calling
Jones a heavyweight
is somewhat akin to calling kittens born in an oven "biscuits," and ...
www.spboxing.com/articleserver/displaytags/ index.cfm?section=news&
articleid=2780 - 12k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)\
If a cat gave birth in an oven - would it's kittens be biscuts?
... OK just because a kitten is born in an oven dosen't make it a biscut, so
does a regional
Rainbow Gathering approved by council but on paper called "dolphin camp ...
alt.gathering.rainbow - Feb 21, 2004 by bodhi - View Thread (5 articles)

Re: DO AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THEMSELVES ...
"Just because a kitten is born in an oven doesn't make it a biscuit."
- Malcolm X How poetic. And, it just about says it all. -John ...
soc.culture.african.american - Mar 18, 1997 by ita - View Thread (47 articles)

Re: Tao Te Barbeque
... accident of my birth in Tennessee has not made me an alien in this
gracious land
because as Mr. CM Hurst once observed: "a kitten, born in an oven, does not
...
rec.sport.football.college - May 25, 1994 by Trevor Bauknight - View Thread
(45 articles)

Re: Southern dialects
... of bread roll, baked in an oven. You would not call a kitten born
in an oven a biscuit. Similarly, a Texan is not Southern, even ...
rec.boats.paddle - Mar 16, 2001 by ChasMan - View Thread (22 articles)


 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sandusky Daily Star - 9/8/1900
...Pat Faith, ANd if a kitten was afther beIN BORN IN AN OVEN, would it be a
loaf of bread.....lie is both a v w major ANd a Judge. He was BORN IN GermANy
IN 1844 ANd came to this.....you claim to be AN IrishmAN when you were BORN ID
America.....ANd IN crossINg the street he had to pass IN the rear of the car
that was IN waitINg..
Sandusky, Ohio Saturday, September 08, 1900  702 k

Bridgeport Telegram - 2/9/1923
...ANy more thAN because kittens were BORN IN AN OVEN meANt that they were
biscuits.....be' thrown, out of politics. Whether BORN IN Amerilca or not, he
contINued as long.....Lower region Friday ANd Friday night, ANd IN the Mi-lie
AtlANtic AN North AtlANtic.....after all, most of us are that kINd demANd AN pAN
sive simplicity IN their climaxes..
Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, February 09, 1923  808 k

Marion Daily Star - 7/3/1916
...seasons of the year, but there would be BORN IN AN OVEN are biscuits." Pea
Ridge Pod.....so little: Putnam says: "It is true I was BORN IN EnglANd. But
1 am no more AN.....AN, Well put well put But, unfortunately, BORN ANd reared
under the shelterINg folds of.....AN ordINary piANo she cAN't hold a caramel
IN one hANd ANd a powder rag IN the other. l..
Marion, Ohio Monday, July 03, 1916  647 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/29/1911
...PRUNES GROWN IN CALIF. Kittens BORN IN AN OVEN Should W Called BiKoito;
Hit.....At theRequest of at Au States -has sent AN__ gunboat' to Hay tien waters
f o IN IN.....Los ANgeles DynamitINg Cases Los ANgeles. IN the 'defense's AN
swer IN the hearINg of.....his name was Tveitmbe ANd _ 2. Joseph AN Powder
WUrtisT was killed IN the' fre.ight..
Placerville, California Saturday, July 29, 1911  623 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/29/1911
...city, was mistaken for a deer ANd Kittens BORN IN AN OVEN Should be Called
Biscuits.....leadership of AN INternational labor union, IN order that he may
stANd IN the dock with.....here for the murder of his wife, Mollie, IN
February, 1910, collapsed IN his cell IN.....was promptly filed. This was denied IN
AN order of the court. The INjuries which..
Placerville, California Saturday, July 29, 1911  623 k

Indiana Progress - 1/16/1901
...Faith, ANd if a kitten was a ft her beiu BORN IN AN OVEN, would it bt> ii
loaf of.....you claim to be AN IrishmAN when you were BORN IN America.....of
latitude ANd longitude this year. IN the PhilippINes, IN Hawaii, IN Cuba AN
d.....recorded ANd added, ANd they serve to make AN expert acconut.INt out of ANy
one who cAN..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 16, 1901  670 k


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
Search: "born in an oven"
Humors of Political Campaigning in Kentucky, by Edward J. McDermott: pp.
826-834
p. 827 2 matches of 'born in an oven'
in: Title:  The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 50, Issue 6
Publisher:  The Century Company Publication Date:   Oct 1895
City:   New York    Pages:  1066 page images in vol.
   The "New Haven Herald" says: "Does the editor of the 'Louisville Journal'
suppose that he is a true Yankee because he was born in New England?  If a dog
is born in an oven is he bread?"  We can tell the editor that there are very
few dogs, whether born in an oven or out of it, but are _better bred_ than he
is.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 09:55:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:55:21 EST
Subject: Pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel (1942)
Message-ID: 

POUR WATER OUT OF A BOOT--914 Google hits, 1,500 Google Groups hits
POUR PISS OUT OF A BOOT--528 Google hits, 5,200 Google Groups hits
INSTRUCTIONS ON THE HEEL--1,650 Google hits, 4,150 Google Groups hits
DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL--74 Google hits, 182 Google Groups hits

   We're talking stupid.
   I couldn't find this easily in the HDAS and the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF
SLANG.
   SOUP out of a boot?  Well, must be "corn" soup.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lowell Sun - 10/17/1942
...enough to pour soup out of a boot with full DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. Never
since Gcrohimo.....THE axles groaning Beneath THE heavy load. THE light grows
at my window, And ON THE pane.....of THE greatest performances ever played ON
THE diamONd, THE total attendance at THE.....oath ON THE incandescent hinges
that siring THE gates of THE regiONs of THE doomed tliat..
Lowell, Massachusetts Saturday, October 17, 1942  897 k

Coe Cosmos - 12/4/1946
...enough to pour water out of a boot, with DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL, should be
able to see.....RedmON at bay ON THE strategic points of THE game, while THE
CrimsON line checked THE.....point cONversiON. THE final count came In THE
closing moments of THE game. Stymied ON.....through THE squad. Little Jim King is
given THE nod as THE best field general in THE..
Cedar Rapids, Iowa Wednesday, December 04, 1946  381 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with f DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. been in
this.....42. in a comfortable farm house no standing ON j THE old Lawrence
road whore THE I towns.....ONly ONe THE hoy in THE nacy. A 1JCTTER IN THE MAIL
You noted last Saturday THE 25th.....it was invented bv THE DI of Waterlook at
THE battle of THE same name. "Of all THE inde..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  889 k

Lowell Sun - 10/17/1942
...to pour soup out of a boot with, full DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. Never since
GerONimo.....THE axles groaning Beneath THE heavy load. THE light grows at. my
window, And ON THE.....of THE greatest performances ever played ON THE diamON
d, THE total attendance at THE.....given at THE formal closing of THE pool THE
past seasON." At THE pool during THE..
Lowell, Massachusetts Saturday, October 17, 1942  929 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...to pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. hai-e
been in this.....lovely laughter. Have cheered for her ON THE ('horns lArtf of
THE SetON .. Younger.....it was invented by THE Du of Waterlook at THE battle
of. THE same name. "Of all THE.....In he made THE dedicatory adi dress at THE
unveiling of THE boulder in frONt of THE..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  898 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with Iu' DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. "J
huce been in tins.....practice, mostly ON THE north side i of THE river, which
had been inblishcd by THE.....it was invented by THE Duk' of Waterlook at THE
battle of THE same name. "Of all THE inde.....nits in n. plushy chair, THE Sirn,
tilioitt ON I IL Our T'lioi THE H'orM M'fir is like..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  900 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 12:01:05 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:01:05 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Phony"
In-Reply-To: <1e.24b171d4.2d8beda2@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

phony (OED 1900)

1898 _Wash. Post_ 14 Mar. 8 (ProQuest)  Any member of the Order of Oily
Slicks that could do Jem Mace -- and Jem was done in Frisco about two
decades ago -- could palm off a "phony" gold brick on even Hungry Joe.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 12:06:47 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:06:47 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phony"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

phony (OED 1900)

1896 _Wash. Post_ 3 Mar. 8 (ProQuest)  Detective McGlue and Policeman
Cooney captured two men yesterday in the act of working a clever "phoney"
game on the residents of the Third Precinct.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 19 12:35:24 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:35:24 -0500
Subject: Nothing beats "homemade" (was Ugly as homemade sin (1890)
Message-ID: 

From:    "Dennis R. Preston" preston at MSU.EDU

: I am a more frequent user of the variant "homemade shit" myself,
: though not with "ugly." It wonders me that "homemade" is simply an
: aggrandizer which can be inserted in the slot indicated in the as X
: as _ Y formula (alternatively Xer than _ Y), e.g., ugly as (homemade)
: sin, dumber'n (homemade) shit, with perhaps some semantic
: restrictions (no count nouns?), e.g., *as big as a homemade horse and
: some pragmatic ones (no complimentary or even neutral expressions?),
: e.g., *as easy as homemade pie.

: I suspect a connection with "downhome" or even simply "home," which
: suggests authenticity or nitty-gritty, so that such expression tell
: us that somebody is not just as dumb as any old (maybe even [shudder]
: storebought) shit but as dumb as the real thing (i.e., homemade).

Agreed all 'round--so I just wanted to add to the discussion the (emerging?)
orthographic variant of "homemade" as "homade" or even "ho made".

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one subject to double-takes when I see a
restaurant advertising "ho made mashed potatoes" (which is bizarre on *two*
levels--what are hos doing making mashed potatoes, and why did they go
through the trouble of carting it from someone's house to a restaurant?)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 19 12:39:57 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:39:57 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
Message-ID: 

From:    "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
: On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

:: Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
:: morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
:: MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
:: flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
:: Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
:: for a higher price).

:: FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

: maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
: band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
: here in california!...

And eastward, too. This isn't north of NJ, but Jeanne (my wife) and her
siblings all *occasionally* use NEEDS Xed in casual speech; they all grew up
in Aberdeen, Maryland (far northern exurbs of Baltimore) in the 70s and 80s.
(The one who, in my casual observation, uses it the most is Jeanne's younger
sister, born at the end of the 70s.) Their mother (grew up in Salt Lake
City, Utah in the 50s) absolutely detests the construction, and I've never
heard her use it except to criticize it.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:51:26 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:51:26 EST
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
Message-ID: 

Just a thought:  does this expression reflect Sherman's March Through
Georgia?  After all, it was Sherman who siad (or was supposed to have said?) "War is
Hell".

Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?

      - James A. Landau


From mlv at POBOX.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:53:53 2004
From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:53:53 -0500
Subject: Only way to fly
In-Reply-To: <20040319050240.2FAA5858EE@kelvin.pobox.com>
Message-ID: 

>Date:    Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:51:40 -0500
>From:    Sean Fitzpatrick 
>Subject: Only way to fly
>
>Someone just told me about used books bargains at Amazon and remarked =
>that "it's the only way to fly".
>
>What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although Google =
>finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only way =
>to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane =
>predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"
>
>
>
>
I don't know if it had a pre-airplane predecessor, but it was the slogan
for Western Airlines
(from 1955, according to this link, until maybe some time in the 70s or
so, I think).

And I just learned that the bird in the ads had a name:
http://www.tvacres.com/birds_canary_wally.htm

Hope this helps.

Michael


From yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:56:26 2004
From: yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM (NOLA DAISY)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:56:26 -0800
Subject: definition of grassroots
Message-ID: 

Speaking of political terms, I am working on a Cultural Studies project that will discuss the use of the Internet for this 2004 Presidential election. So many Democratic candidates {Dean especially} as well as organizations like MoveOn.org and makeamericaworkforus.org describe themselves as being part of a new "grassroots" movement.

Has the definition changed in recent years?

Any guidance on this will be appreciated since it's vital that I define this term before analyzing those examples.

Thanks

Daisy Pignetti


"James A. Landau"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "James A. Landau"
Subject: Re: democrat as an adjective
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote:
> As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
> Democratic as a proper adj?

My father was an editor on the Louisville KY _Courier-Journal_ back when it
was owned by the Bingham family. In the terminology of the day, the
_Courier-Journal's_ editorial stance was "liberal Democratic".

Once when visiting my father's office (I can't date this citation except that
it was 1965 or before) I saw a memo from Mr. Bingham stating that the use of
"Democrat" as an adjective rather than "Democratic" was forbidden. I vaguely
recall that the memo stated this practice was a deliberate attempt by
Republicans to be derogatory.

----------------------------------------------------------------

For a politically offensive label, consider the word "lackey" which is so
stereotyped as Communist propaganda that it is a shock to read _The Three
Musketeers_ and find Planchet et al consistently referred to as "lackeys".

Aside to Larry Horn: Anyone who refers to him/herself as a "knee-jerk
liberal" isn't.

- James A. Landau
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 13:22:23 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:22:23 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <200403190626.ARR73221@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 01:16 AM 3/19/2004, C Muir wrote:

>I think Vegeflex is a better word.

Except that's reserved for a machine advertised on TV late at night that
bends carrots and celery into attractive shapes.

Geoff


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Mar 19 14:38:00 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:38:00 -0800
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040319082129.0260dc00@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

I have a coworker who calls himself (half-seriously) a "vegequarian." He
eats fish as well as flora.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Geoff Nathan
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 5:22 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Flexitarian?
>
>
> At 01:16 AM 3/19/2004, C Muir wrote:
>
> >I think Vegeflex is a better word.
>
> Except that's reserved for a machine advertised on TV late at night that
> bends carrots and celery into attractive shapes.
>
> Geoff
>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 15:52:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:52:25 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <20040319061645.1946BB710@xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:16 AM -0500 3/19/04, C Muir wrote:
>read today that "flexitarian" was voted most useful word for 2003.
>however, to describe flexible vegetarians, the word does not make
>etymological sense. That is, "flexi" and "tarian" simply mean
>flexible people. And if that is not the case, then we might allow:
>
>Unitarian = one on a strict, single food diet (especially when sick)
>Humanitarian = one on a human diet (a cannibal?)
>
>I think Vegeflex is a better word.
>
>CM
>
Too late; "flexitarian" is already pretty established, according to
the student data I collected last fall.  And as far as not making
etymological sense, it's perfectly consistent with standard
clip-blending procedure; check out "cheeseburger", "homophobia",
"chocoholic", etc. etc.   "-tarian" doesn't mean 'people' here, it
means 'vegetarian', just like "burger", "homo", and "(o)holic" mean
'hamburger', 'homosexual', and 'addicted to' respectively within this
blending process.

Larry Horn


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 17:57:44 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:57:44 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phony" (1894)
Message-ID: 

17 Nov. 1894  _Decatur(IL) Daily Revue_ 2/3

(A story about horse racing)

<>

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 19:20:39 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:20:39 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "grass widow/widower" 1843/1856
Message-ID: 

OED has 1846 for "grass widow"

18 Nov. 1843 _Norwalk(OH) Experiment_   1/5(Newspaperarchive)
(perhaps reprinted from _Chicago Democrat_)

<>

OED and M-W have 1862 for the male equivalent, "grass widower."

6 Oct. 1856 NY Times(Proquest) pg 3

<>

Sam Clements


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar 19 20:03:09 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:03:09 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040317180133.02f0c540@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 17, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Doug Wilson continues the discussion:

1. what's at issue

> I would speculate that "wack"/"whack" went its own way and the earlier
> form
> was forgotten ... whether it was "whack-off", "wacky", or "whacked", or
> even "out of whack".

well, of course.  speakers rarely have any sense of the historical
origins of the expressions they use, and even if they have opinions on
the matter these aren't necessarily correct.  to make things more
vexing for the linguist, there isn't necessarily a single source for or
influence on the development of expressions.

when i stumbled onto the topic of adjective "w(h)ack", i had two
interests: figuring out how it is used -- what its syntax and semantics
are -- and figuring out where it came from.  i hadn't appreciated just
how complicated the second task was going to be.  though i shouldn't
have been so surprised, i guess: the development of (what i'll call,
for the lack of a better term) demotic vocabulary is notoriously hard
to track, not to mention full of idiosyncratic events (syntactically
and semantically parallel items often fail to shift in the same way)
and multiple influences.  looking at one item quickly entangles you in
a bunch of others, and the puzzles only multiply.

search engines now provide us with vast corpora of demotic writing.  a
truly wonderful resource, but it helps very little with the historical
questions, since these rich resources are historically very shallow and
since (as with all sorts of corpora) it can be very hard to divine the
writer's intentions from the context.  even the synchronic questions
can be explored only so far; as i'll point out below, all sorts of
important variation can be concealed in the corpora, and the corpora
provide no negative evidence (only absence or rarity of positive
evidence).

but... we can now find all sorts of things.  ron butters has noted
adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
(as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these three
innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.  it
is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.

on to some specifics.

2.  "jack off"

>  I doubt
> "jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
> off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
> "jack up
> the car to change the tire"...

well, NSOED2 entry allows for the possibility that the masturbation
sense comes from the contact-verb sense, which in turn comes from the
'man' sense.

the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
would be no surprise.  consider "jerk off", involving what almost
everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
dialectally restricted]).  there are plenty of excellent candidates for
a parallel development, but if any of them have occurred, they haven't
caught on: whip off, churn off, shake off, pluck off, flutter off,
wallop off, wag off, jog off, jounce off, stir off, push off, pull off,
touch off, feel off, finger off, stroke off, flick off, flip off, wipe
off, sweep off, hit off, pinch off, fiddle off, grope off, pat off,
grab off, scrape off, brush off, wipe off, hand off, scratch off,
tickle off, throw off, spray off, splash off, hurl off, slap off,...

what is, is.  (and what is not, is not.)

any of these is possible as an original, genuinely creative (even
poetic) verb for masturbation -- "whip off" and "stroke off" seem to me
to be particularly good images -- but none of them has, so far as i
know, been conventionalized, and certainly none of them has been
*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.  that fact doesn't in
the slightest undercut the proposal that "jerk off" is historically
derived from the verb "jerk".

when i last engaged in a discussion on the origins of "jack off" -- on
the OUTIL mailing list -- almost every imaginable proposal relating
various items "jack", "jerk", and "jag" was floated, and the available
evidence didn't absolutely rule out any of these speculations.  it was
a sobering experience for me.

3.  predicative vs. adnominal

> Is it really certain that the early use [of adjective "w(h)ack"] was
> predicative? Searching Google groups, I find "wack ideas" earlier than
> "that's wack" (1992 vs. 1994) ...
> of course the material is sparse in the early days and I'm sure this
> was
> around in the 1980's.

no, not at all certain.  but i *am* aware of asymmetries in predicative
vs. adnominal uses of modifiers (including in demotic english), so i
was primed to expect them here.

so: i know of speakers with predicative-only modifiers, for instance
"mad + Adj", as in "mad cracked" 'very crazy' (He's mad cracked.  *a
mad cracked guy) and other speakers with adnominal-only "Adj-"ass", as
in "huge-ass" 'really huge' (a huge-ass homework assignment; *The
homework assignment was huge-ass.).

the facts are complicated.  in each case, i think, there are speakers
with *both* uses (predicative and adnominal), so if you do a google
search, you're going to find occurrences of both, and you won't see any
restriction.  to see that there is a restriction, you have to look at
the usage of *individual speakers*, and you have to get judgments about
what they *can't/wouldn't/don't* say as well as judgments about what
they can/would/do say.

my guess was that some speakers had predicative-only adjective
"w(h)ack", and that none had only the adnominal uses.  (clearly, many
speakers have both.)  i could be wrong, but we have to examine
individual speakers to find out.  if i'm right, the suggestion is that
the predicative uses are historically earlier.  or if the asymmetry
goes the other way, then the suggestion is that the adnominal uses are
historically earlier (as doug wilson favors).  and if there's no
asymmetry, then who knows?

4.  adjective w(h)ack/suck/dick/wank and their sources

all sorts of suggestions about the source of adjective "w(h)ack".  note
that i suggested that there might be two rather different items and two
different sources, negative-affect "w(h)ack" '[metaphorically] fucked'
and positive-affect "w(h)ack" 'whack-ass'.

then there's adjective "suck", as in this example that barry popik just
  posted in the kitten-oven-biscuit thread:

--------------
(GOOGLE)
GameDev.net - User Profile - Jimmy The Nose
... Yeah whatever. Eminem is suck and Moby is OK. A cat born in an
oven
is not a cake.  ... "Abortion thread closed' closed!?" closed!? ...
www.gamedev.net/profile/profile.asp?id=15938 - 24k - Cached - Similar
pages
--------------

guesses: "suck" from adjective "sucky", related to intransitive
derogatory "suck", or direct from that verb.  semantics pretty good.
conversion mechanism obscure in either case.

adjective 'dick': could be related to the diminishing mass noun "dick",
as in
   You don't know beans/dick/shit/crap/jack... about linguistics.
could be a clipping of "dick-ass", in either its diminishing sense or
its V+N sense (parallel to "fuck-ass") or both.

(suffixoid "-ass" has a complex distribution: with adjectivals, as an
intensifier: "huge-ass", "monster-ass"; with nouns, in a compound with
a noun, as in "shit-ass" (modifier semantics) and "fuck-ass" and
"whack-ass" (verb+object semantics); and with an element of obscure
category, as in [positive] "whoop-ass".  the straightforward
intensifier uses convert adjectivals to adjectivals, but the other uses
yield adjectivals from items that, historically at least, are not
usable as adjectivals themselves: a whoop-ass party, *a whoop party.)

as for adjective "wank", it could be derived from "wank-off" or from
the noun "wank" 'wanker', as in "he's a real wank", via noun-noun
compounds like "a wank party" 'a party of the sort that wanks go to'
(like "a nerd party").  or possibly other things.

it's a wild world out there, and we don't know jack...or dick...about
much of it.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 20:06:13 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:06:13 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "good time Charlie" 1925/1926
Message-ID: 

OED has 1928(although for good-time girl).
For some reason, I though M-W had 1927, but I can't find it.

There are hits in Newspapaperarchive in 1921 for "jazz time girl" and 1924
for "rag time girl."  I assume these could have been the inspiration
for------

---The first Newspaperarchive hit  from 2 Feb. 1925 _Bridgeport(CT)
Telegram_ 13/6
(Advertisement for a vaudeville act)

<>

If you don't count that cite, the first cite for the use of the term in no
uncertain terms is--

25 Aug. 1926  _Appleton(WI) Post Crescent_ 14/4

<>\

But I assume that the Vaudeville act written by Cantor truly started and
popularized the phrase.

Of course, someone will come along and predate Cantor with the term, and I'm
left holding bubkes.

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 20:21:06 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:21:06 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <719CA05A-79E0-11D8-995C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:03 PM -0800 3/19/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
>2.  "jack off"
>
>>  I doubt
>>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>>off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
>>"jack up
>>the car to change the tire"...
>
>well, NSOED2 entry allows for the possibility that the masturbation
>sense comes from the contact-verb sense, which in turn comes from the
>'man' sense.
>
>the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
>would be no surprise.  consider "jerk off", involving what almost
>everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
>parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
>dialectally restricted]).  there are plenty of excellent candidates for
>a parallel development, but if any of them have occurred, they haven't
>caught on: whip off, churn off, shake off, pluck off, flutter off,
>wallop off, wag off, jog off, jounce off, stir off, push off, pull off,
>touch off, feel off, finger off, stroke off, flick off, flip off, wipe
>off, sweep off, hit off, pinch off, fiddle off, grope off, pat off,
>grab off, scrape off, brush off, wipe off, hand off, scratch off,
>tickle off, throw off, spray off, splash off, hurl off, slap off,...
>
>what is, is.  (and what is not, is not.)
>
>any of these is possible as an original, genuinely creative (even
>poetic) verb for masturbation -- "whip off" and "stroke off" seem to me
>to be particularly good images -- but none of them has, so far as i
>know, been conventionalized, and certainly none of them has been
*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.

Not that this affects Arnold's point, but "stroke off" *is*
conventionalized, as both my intuition and a quick look at google
confirms, and for both intransitive and transitive uses.  Maybe it
goes into the "dialectally restricted" group, although I suspect the
dialects in question are not regionally delineated.

larry horn


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Mar 19 21:06:16 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:06:16 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "good time Charlie" 1925/1926
In-Reply-To: <002601c40ded$a18f2660$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 03:06:13PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> OED has 1928(although for good-time girl).
> For some reason, I though M-W had 1927, but I can't find it.

It's HDAS that has a 1927, citing Zwilling's _TAD Lexicon._

Jesse Sheidlower


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 22:26:53 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:26:53 EST
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/19/04 3:03:57 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> ron butters has noted
> adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
> suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
> (as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these three
> innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.  it
> is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
> their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.
> 

What I was implying (not very clearly, because still somewhat inchoate in my 
own mind) was that there could be an interactive process here, based partly on 
phonology. That is to say, suppose that speakers associate "That is so wack" 
(or "whack"--how many people actually aspirate /w/ these days?) with "wacked" 
and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational suffix as 
a rule for the cool (hearing it first in counterculture contexts, where it 
apparently first arose). These would-be cool people would then generalize the 
cool rule to other /k/-final pejorative stems, i.e., "dick," "suck," "fuck," and 
even "wank." (Of course, this use of "so" is in itself a cool rule or set of 
rules.)

One would predict that we would begin to get constructions such as "That is 
so jerk" (especially since appositive "jerk" is already possible, as in "As it 
turns out, marrying a millionaire was a jerk idea."
www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0002/25/). Here is an example of the putative 
older form:

I've been quite unfair really, not all me boyfriends were jerks - but each 
and every
one of them have done things so jerk-ish (thats why theyre exs) and ive ...
www.wideworldofass.com/dinkee/979412526.html

I also find the following, but since the speaker is not (it seems) a native 
speaker of English, this is not very useful:

 ... i write in english,and some of you will translate it. i feel so jerk
,because
i never really know,what i am really saying,when i write hungarian. ...
pride.hu/ viewtopic.php?topic=10&forum=1&start=390

However, I do in fact I do find:

 ... That people should kn. If You Only Knew Posted on Jan 03. Categories: 
Lyrics.
Critical. If you only knew about me you wouldn't be so jerk to me. ...
oldpoetry.com/poets/Talliegirl23

 ... threads on the ways of the rest 1%. I'm sometimes looking at them and 
thinking -
how can a man be so cruel, have no dreams, be so brainwashed, so jerk, how 
can ...
freenet.am/~sssite/man1.html

There were at least ten pages of Google results, of which these come from 
only just the first four.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 22:44:15 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:44:15 EST
Subject: so stink
Message-ID: 

Here is a great website that has yet another truncated form comparable to
"whack" and the rest:

http://www.iol.ie/~pbalfe/newpage18.htm

See:

Yo mama so stink, she has to creep up on bathwater.
Yo mama so stink, she sweats Black Flag.

Note, however, that we get

...   so bald, you can see what's on her mind.
...   so bald, she looks like an overgrown testicle.

and

so slutty, her legs are like a 7-11, open 24 hours a day.
etc.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Mar 19 23:06:38 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

        It should also be noted that "jazz" in used in sheet music for several songs that were published in 1917.  It is possible, of course, that these were unthought of until the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to New York, but it seems likely that more time would have been needed for the word to catch on and the songs to be written, popularized, and published.

        From Historic American Sheet Music, there is "Everybody Loves A 'Jazz' Band," words by Coleman Goetz, music by Leon Flatow.  I won't bother retyping the lyrics, since they are available at http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/sheetmusic/1910-1920/@Generic__BookTextView/7820;nh=1?DwebQuery=jazz+in+%3Cunittitle%3E+with+label=%22Title%22#X, but the lyrics refer to a band that was heard in New Orleans, playing a rag, with a clarinet, a cornet, a piano, and a trombone, and that makes you think of Alabama.  The front cover advertises "Emma Carus' Terrific 'Jazz' Success!"  Emma Carus was a German-born American vaudeville singer, best known for popularizing "Alexander's Ragtime Band."  The artwork has an African-American man dancing in the foreground and a generic Caucasian brass band marching in the background.

        It seems that there was also an early recording of this song.  From The Encyclopedia of Acoustic Era Recording Artists, at http://www.garlic.com/~tgracyk/fields.htm:  <>  The Fields referred to was Arthur Fields, born Abe Finkelstein.

        A second 1917 song is "Jazzin' the Cotton Town Blues," words by Roger Lewis, music by Harry Olsen, lyrics at http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/sheetmusic/1910-1920/@Generic__BookTextView/23646;nh=1?DwebQuery=jazzin+in+%3Cunittitle%3E+with+label=%22Title%22#X.  The lyrics refer to "a Jazz band in Mississippi, Keeping the darkies dippy."  The jazz band in the lyrics plays blues and includes a cornet, trombone, and clarinet.  The cover says "novelty song" and shows well-dressed African-American couples dancing to the music of an African-American band with a piano, trombone, cornet, drum, cymbal, and schoolbell.

        In an article by Catherine Parsonage, "A critical reassessment of the reception of early jazz in Britain," online at http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500001REQSUB=&REQSTR1=S0261143003003210 (sorry about all these long URLs), there are references to three songs published in Britain in 1917 with "jazz" in their names.  One the author cites as "(Buck/Stamper 1917, 'When I Hear that Jazz Band Play' [h3996n(22)])."  The other two are both by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band:  "Ostrich Walk:  Jazz Foxtrot" and "Sensation: Jazz One-step."  So "jazz" had even made it to Britain by 1917.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of George Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916



The apparent fact that Gleizes encountered the word "jazz" in NYC in late 1915 or early 1916 and associated it with music played by black musicians does not fit comfortably with what otherwise seems a plausible story, that "jazz" was a west coast word brought to Chicago by a white musician (Bert Kelly); that it was adopted there by one or several other groups comprised of white musicians; that it did not reach NYC until early 1917, when the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to the city; and that the word and the music did not become a fad until the ODJB made a hit record in the spring of 1917.
It does seem that once the fad hit, every vaudeville musical group that played novelty music started calling itself a "jazz band", and that the response in Chicago to Kelly;s group, and the ODJB, and Tom Brown's band, was pretty enthusiastic, so it may be that the fad started to spread through vaudeville before the ODJB came to NYC and before they recorded their first hit.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar 20 01:11:10 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:11:10 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <719CA05A-79E0-11D8-995C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>2.  "jack off"
>
>>  I doubt
>>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>>off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
>>"jack up
>>the car to change the tire"...
>
>...

>the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
>would be no surprise.

Perhaps I was too elliptical. I would not assert that one would expect all
or many of the conceivable analogous terms to appear. I guess my position
would be that since "jack off" from the verb "jack" seems natural (with
several analogous synonyms [all from verbs at very least]) it would not be
sensible (without a good paper-trail or strong supporting argument of some
type) to postulate instead "jack off" from a noun (="man") (given that NONE
of its likely analogues occurs) ... EVEN if one found the noun etymon
intuitively likely otherwise (which I myself don't).

>   consider "jerk off", involving what almost
>everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
>parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
>dialectally restricted]).

All but "toss" were routine in my childhood environment ("toss" very rare,
archaic maybe) ... also "pound" and "stroke" at least.

>there are plenty of excellent candidates for
>a parallel development ....
>
>... certainly none of them has been
>*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.  that fact doesn't in
>the slightest undercut the proposal that "jerk off" is historically
>derived from the verb "jerk".

I agree ... but what if the proposal were (in analogy to the above
"jack"="man" etymology) that "jerk off" is based on a noun "jerk" meaning a
stupid or offensive man? Then I would object (as above) that this etymology
doesn't seem likely, and that the ancestor is probably the verb, by analogy
to "beat", "whack", etc.

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 02:25:23 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:25:23 EST
Subject: architecting
Message-ID: 

In a message dated   Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500,   Jesse Sheidlower
 writes

>  On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
>  > Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of
a
>  > job posted by an investment firm:
>  >
>  > "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
>  > architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
>  > talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."
>
>  As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software
>  industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry
>  has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of
>  examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense
>  'to design' or 'to plan'.

Amdahl, G. M., Blaauw, G. A., and Brooks, F. P. "Architecture of the IBM
System/360," _IBM Journal of Research and Development_, 8, No. 2, 87-101 (April
1964)

While the authors are listed alphabetically, I have no doubt that Gene Amdahl
was the lead author.  Amdahl is well-known in the computer business as THE
designer of the System/360 family.  Later he left IBM and founded his own
company, also called "Amdahl", to build computers using the 360 "architecture" in
competition with IBM.

It could be that this article introduced the noun "architecture" to mean
"design of a computer".  IBM introduced all sorts of new jargon with the
System/360, e.g. what everybody had called a "file" was now to be known as a "data set"
(which in this case led to some confusion, since "data set" is a now-obsolete
term for what we now call a "modem").    IBM also called the System/360 "a
third-generation system", a term which has caught on, even though the 360 was
NOT the first third-generation system.  (What constitutes a third-generation
system is debatable.  My definition is a computer designed around
base-displacement addressing, protected memory, and interrupts, by which definition Britain's
Ferranti Atlas of 1960 was the first.)

Furthermore, the System/360, if not the first third-generation system,
definitely introduced a number of new ideas into computer design.  For one thing, it
was the first computer sold as a "family", that is, different models at
different prices to cover every niche from small to large.  All previous computers
had been introduced as single models wtih single prices and single performance
levels.  Whereas one "designed" a pre-System/360 computer, one might claim
that putting together an entire FAMILY transcended mere design and should be
considered "architecture".

Yes, I am aware that the above citation is for "architecture" as a noun.  I
have no citations for the word as a verb.

The bibliography I got this citation from (my grad school textbook on the
subject, Caxton C. Foster and Thea Iberall, _Computer Architecture, Third
Edition_ New York: Van Nostrand, 1985, ISBN 0-442-27219-7) gives no other citation
for "architecture" before 1970 and they start becoming numerous about 1978. (I
will supply these on request) So Amdahl et al's apparent nelogism might not
have caught on for a while.

Note to Jesse: you said "in the software industry".  The 1964 Amdahl cite was
actually "in the hardware industry".

       - James A. Landau


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Mar 20 02:39:02 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:39:02 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "where's the fire?" 1875
Message-ID: 

OED has 1924.

5 August 1875 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye_  2/4

<>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Mar 20 03:42:26 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:42:26 -0500
Subject: architecting
In-Reply-To: <7b.24ddcffd.2d8d0593@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 09:25:23PM -0500, James A. Landau wrote:
> In a message dated   Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500,   Jesse Sheidlower
>  writes
>
> >  On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
> >  > Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of
> a
> >  > job posted by an investment firm:
> >  >
> >  > "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
> >  > architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
> >  > talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."
> >
> >  As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software
> >  industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry
> >  has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of
> >  examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense
> >  'to design' or 'to plan'.
>
> Amdahl, G. M., Blaauw, G. A., and Brooks, F. P. "Architecture of the IBM
> System/360," _IBM Journal of Research and Development_, 8, No. 2, 87-101 (April
> 1964)

This citation is already in the OED. So is an earlier one:

1962 F. BROOKS in W. Buchholz in _Planning Computer Syst._
ii. 5 Computer architecture, like other architecture, is the
art of determining the needs of the user..and then designing
to meet those needs as effectively as possible.

> Note to Jesse: you said "in the software industry".  The 1964 Amdahl cite was
> actually "in the hardware industry".

So noted.

However, the 1964 Amdahl cite goes on to specify, "The term
_architecture_ is used here to describe the attributes of a
system as seen by the programmer, i.e., the conceptual
structure and functional behavior, as distinct from the
organization of the data flow and controls, the logical
design, and the physical implementation."

This suggests to me pretty clearly that the cite is indeed
concerned with the software side of things. (Despite the
evidence of this particular paper, though, I would agree
that _architecture_ n. is often used of hardware issues.)

Best,

Jesse
OED


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar 20 13:55:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:55:07 -0500
Subject: in-migrant (was: Through hell and half of Georgia)
In-Reply-To: <200403200500.i2K50G2f000526@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Scripsit James Landau:

        >>>
Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?
        <<<

I don't remember seeing Ber///Bev's use of it, but I've seen it for many
years referring to population movements between regions within a
country, e.g., "The Black population of the Northern cities was swollen
by a flood of in-migrants from the South". I assumed, and still suppose,
that it was used instead of "immigrant" because the latter is used for
people coming from abroad, not moving within the national boundaries.

Ditto of course "in-migration", which I think I've actually seen more
often than "in-migrant". And ISTM much less of "out-migrant/tion".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 14:46:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:46:51 -0500
Subject: Santa Maria Barbecue (1957)
Message-ID: 

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now digitized through about December 31, 1959.  Won't be long now to those "kiwifruits."
   This is an excellent article for this American regional food, but where are my pinquito beans?


Santa Maria Barbecues Add Up to Good Eating
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 17, 1957. p. A17 (1 page)
   SANTA MARIA, Nov. 16.  Ten tons of beef barbecued the Santa Maria way, adds up to a lot of good eating.
   Glorifying of the typical back-yard extravaganza in this community has resulted in Chamber of Commerce leaders proclaiming Santa Maria the "barbecue capital of the West Coast."
   Chamber officials have estimated that 10 tons of beef is barbecued over oak coals in this city annually.
      _Pits Constructed_
   Virtually all community social functions require a barbecue, which has resulted in construction of barbecue pits in the Elks Lodge, Santa Maria Country Club, Veterans Memorial Hall, the high school and even some elementary schools.
   One of the largest barbecue pits on record was erected for the city's 50th anniversary two years ago.  City crews constructed a special 76-foot long put in the city ball park to serve 1600 citizens who helped celebrate the city's birthday.
   Sanata Maria barbecue is not something new.  It is a hand-me-down meat-cooking method inherited from the Indians who cooked their meat on green wood poles over open coals before the Spanish and American occupation of California.
      _Calls for Know-How_
   An oak wood fire is ignited nearly three hours in advance of the actual cooking.  Barbecue crews begin preparation of the meat almost an hour before it is placed over the coals.  Chunks of choice beef are dipped in a mixture of salt, pepper and garlic salt.  The meat is then strung on large metal rods which fit on a rack over the barbecue pit.
   It takes special know-how to toss the meat-laden rod across the red-hot coals and hook the spiked end without scorching an arm.  The meat is quickly seared on both sides.  Then the rack is raised and the meat allowed to simmer for 45 minutes.
   The secret to tasty barbecuing, valley experts agree, is the quick sear which seals the juice and flavor inside the meat.
   Fast team work on the part of the barbecuers, cutters and waiters results in the meat being served the hungry clientele while still piping hot.
   Few frills are needed at a barbecue.  Ordinarily only beans and green salad are found on the table in addition to bread and coffee--and, of course, barbecue.
   Most noted of all barbecues is the monthly stag barbecue held by Santa Maria Club.  Club Manager Fred Pimentel estimates 800 pounds of meat per month is barbecued over the club pit.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 15:24:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: Mai Tai (1958)
Message-ID: 

   More Mai Tai, from the latest in ProQuest.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HAM ON RYON
ART RYON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1958. p. B5 (1 page) :
   WAIKIKI BEACH, Honolulu--...
   So into the aiport's Short Snorter Bar.  In the islands, an rum is mandatory.  I let Browny do the ordering.  The waiter brought something called a mai tai.  A mai tai, I find out later, is about 14 different shades of rum mixed together and "diluted" with a float of liqueur to smooth it out.
   In the Territory only six minutes and, already, I've made my first mistake...


(OED)
_mai tai_, n.
Prob. < Tahitian maitai good, nice, pleasant, cognate with Hawaiian maikai and Rarotongan meitaki good.
� � Cf. the following claim of coinage (the drink is not mentioned in the 1947 ed. of this work):
� � 1972 Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide (rev. ed.) 163 In 1944..I [sc. V. J. Bergeron] felt a new drink was needed...Carrie [sc. a friend from Tahiti] took one sip and said, ‘Mai TaiRoa Aé.’ In Tahitian this means ‘Out of this worldthe best.’ Well, that was that. I named the drink ‘Mai Tai’.]�

� � � � A cocktail based on light rum, with added curaçao and fruit juices.
�
� � 1961 Gourmet July 44/3 Here's how they make mai-tai at one hotel bar. Other barkeeps add a cherry to the garnish or float an orchid on the drink. Mai-Tai Royal Hawaiian..Pour into a glass 1 jigger each of light and dark Jamaica rum. Add the juice of 1 lime and half the shell, and a dash each of orgeat syrup, rock candy syrup, and orange Curacao. [Etc.] 1963 San Francisco Sunday Chron. 22 Dec. 22/6 You can sip a mai tai, lunch on mahi mahi..and thus take the most painless tour the islands have to offer. 1973 Newsweek 15 Oct. 22 [Richard Nixon] spent an effervescent night on the town.., dining on mai-tais, crab Rangoon, sweet-and-sour pork and almond duck at Trader Vic's. 1984 Times 19 Dec. G/2 Pubs..are serving Mai Tais and Mint Juleps. 1991 V. BUGLIOSI Sea will Tell i. 17 They stay in glitzy resort hotels, down premixed Mai Tais served by waitresses in synthetic grass skirts, and tap their toes to the canned melodies of Don Ho. 1998 New Yorker 23 Feb. 76/1 CocktailsManhattans, Greyhounds, mai taiswere imperative and drugs were easy to come by.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 15:56:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:56:50 -0500
Subject: Victory has a hundred fathers, defeat is an orphan (1945)
Message-ID: 

   Fred Shapiro probably has this.  FWIW: It's in English here in 1945, not 1946.
   The "10/8/1899" Herald Despatch "hit" on Newspaperarchive.com that mentions President Kennedy is mis-dated a little.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times)
CIANO'S DIARY; NAZIS CALL ON POPE TO STOP B-17 RAIDS Edda Scolds Count for Being Anti-German; Return of Stomach Ailment Causes Duce Pain
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 20, 1945. p. 2 (1 page)
   As always victory finds a hundred fathers, but defeat is an orphan.


(BARTLEBY.COM)
The Columbia World of Quotations.� � 1996.

NUMBER:
12397

QUOTATION:
Victory has a hundred fathers but defeat is an orphan.

ATTRIBUTION:
Galeazzo Ciano (1903–1944), Italian Fascist leader. journal entry, Sept. 9, 1942. Diario 1939-1943 (1946).

President Kennedy is credited with the same comment in the wake of the Bay of Pigs invasion, April 1961.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 16:41:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:41:57 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1956)
Message-ID: 

  See the ADS-L archives for various forms of this phrase, including the addition "the tough get going."  I had previously posted 1961 for the full phrase.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
DELEGATES LEAVE IMPRINT ON TOMORROW; Key Personalities Live On in Memories of Conventions GOP PHANTOM
MARY ANN CALLAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 24, 1956. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:   _Leahy Stirs Party_
  Former Notre Dame Coach Frank Leahy in seconding Ike's nomination stirred the audience with a motto for football and politics: "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News -  5/2/1959
...bold letters, it read: "WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, let THE TOUGH GET GOING." I think that.....obstacle stand before you. inside you GET GOING. For TOUGHness of spirit Can overcome.....t t 6U'p being TOUGH-minded enoueh to GETS TOUGH for you, let THE i i. i jut __, Tr i'et.....THE smallest, as an impossibility. But THE TOUGH-minded know what Alps. THE experts said..
Lima,  Ohio     Saturday, May 02, 1959   855 k

Salisbury Times -  5/23/1959
...bold letters, it read: "WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, let THE TOUGH GET GOING." I Ihink that.....field or off it. WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH for you, let THE TOUGH inside you GET.....impossibilities." THAT'S WHAT I mean by TOUGH mindedness Marden also tells THE story.....Children's Home at Hazard, 12 years ago. To GET beds and clothing, THEy told THEir car..
Salisbury,  Maryland     Saturday, May 23, 1959   744 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 17:39:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:39:23 -0500
Subject: Chilighetti (1958); Ranger Cookies (1957)
Message-ID: 

CHILIGHETTI

CHILIGHETTI--194 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits

   I was looking through the LOS ANGELES TIMES for "chili" dishes.  I was hoping to find better than this (still no "chimichanga"), but whatever.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Readers' Recipes Found Easy to Prepare, Delicious to Eat
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 8, 1958. p. A5 (1 page) :
Mrs. Joseph Bronson, Monrovia, writes: "Here's my recipe for a casserole dish which combines two favorites, chili and spaghetti.   You can have it ready for the oven before you can say 'Chilighetti' which is the name I've given it."
(...)
      CHILIGHETTI
1 pound ground beef
2 tablespoons shortening
1 large onion, chopped
2 teaspoons chili powder
1 teaspoon salt
2 cups kidney beans
1 1/2 cups uncooked spaghetti
3 cups tomato pure
1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce
2 teaspoons salt (Salt again?--ed.)
1/2 teaspoon pepper
   METHOD:  Melt shortening in large skillet.  Brown ground beef in hot shortening.  Add onion, chili powder and one teaspoon salt.  Saute onion until tender.  Arrange beef mixture, kidney beans and uncooked spaghetti in layers in a two and one-half quart casserole.  Combine tomato juice, Worcestershire sauce, salt and pepper; pour seasoned tomato juice over casserole contents.  Bake at 350 deg. covered, one hour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RANGER COOKIES

   This is a little earlier than I'd posted (1968).


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
There's Still Time to Bake a Fortune; Cookies Provide Wide Scope in Creating Prize Recipes
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 14, 1957. p. D14 (1 page)
   The old-reliable Western Ranger Cookies are wonderful, too, for many variations.
(...)
   RANGER COOKIES
1 cup shortening
1 cup granulated sugar
1 cup brown sugar
2 eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla
2 cups sifted enriched flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 cups quick-cooking oatmeal
2 cups oven-popped rice cereal
2 cups chopped nuts or coconut
   METHOD: Cream shortening and sugars well.  Add eggs and vanilla; blend.  Resift flour with soda and salt; add to egg mixture.  When well mixed add oatmeal, cereal, nuts.  Roll into balls the size of a walnut and place on greased cooky sheet.  Flatten slightly.  Bake at 350 deg. 10 to 12 minutes.  Maked about 20 (illegible--ed.) cookies.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 18:13:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:13:13 -0500
Subject: Winning Isn't Everything (1950)
Message-ID: 

(ADS-L ARCHIVES)
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Laurence Horn wrote:
> "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."  The bio traced the
> line to UCLA coach Red Sanders (IIRC--I was only half-listening at
> that point) and then played an excerpt from a John Ford movie,
> _Trouble Along the Way_, in which a child--not the ex-big time
> college coach fallen on hard times but maybe his young
> daughter--unmistakably utters the infamous line.

The earliest anyone has found this Red Sanders quote is in the 1953 movie
_Trouble Along the Way_.

Fred Shapiro


   This 1950 LOS ANGELES TIMES citation looks like a good one.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times)
1.
Charger Job for Sid Rumored Near
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 26, 1959. p. A1 (1 page):
   (Pete--ed.) Elliott's won-and-lost record belies the coaching proverb that "Winning isn't everything.  It is the only thing."

2.
INDIANS FAR FROM BASHFUL AT CHOW
ART ROSENBAUM. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 18, 1950. p. C3 (1 page):
   Here's one on Red Sanders, as told by himself this summer at Cal Poly (San Luis Obispo) physical education workshop.  Speaking about football victories, Sanders told his group: "Men, I'll be honest.  Winning isn't everything.  (Long pause.)  Men, it's the only thing!"  (Laughter.)

3.
THE SPORTS PARADE; Collapse of Our Local Football Teams May Cause All-Year Club to Take Some Kind of Drastic Action
BRAVEN DTER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1937. p. A16 (1 page) :
   It's all very well for you to say that winning isn't everything and that Tom Howard Spaulding is a good guy but there are more than 2,000,000 people around Los Angeles who have a lot of pride in this section of the State and they're getting pretty tired of seeing their colors trampled under foot come every Saturday afternoon.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lancaster Eagle Gazette -  3/10/1960
...Base KOs Sparse In Chicago Ring Scraps WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING A few weeks ago when.....increasing his skill at the game so tha: he ISN'T strictly a shooter, Wednesdav {ne c..
Lancaster,  Ohio     Thursday, March 10, 1960   713 k

Frederick Post -  11/17/1927
...of the word, universal serHowerer, since WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING from the collegiate.....Starring Complete Change Of Program; EVERYTHING New Including TOMORROW..
Frederick,  Maryland     Thursday, November 17, 1927   552 k

Ironwood Daily Globe -  11/19/1927
...teum Is stale and suffers, c Howvcr, since WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING fi'om the..
Ironwood,  Michigan     Saturday, November 19, 1927   656 k


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar 20 19:19:03 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:19:03 -0800
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
In-Reply-To: <1f1.1bd78dd7.2d8ccdad@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 19, 2004, at 2:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 3/19/04 3:03:57 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>
>
>> ron butters has noted
>> adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
>> suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
>> (as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these
>> three
>> innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.
>> it
>> is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
>> their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.
>>
>
> What I was implying (not very clearly, because still somewhat inchoate
> in my
> own mind) was that there could be an interactive process here, based
> partly on
> phonology. That is to say, suppose that speakers associate "That is so
> wack"
> (or "whack"--how many people actually aspirate /w/ these days?) with
> "wacked"
> and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational
> suffix as
> a rule for the cool (hearing it first in counterculture contexts,
> where it
> apparently first arose). These would-be cool people would then
> generalize the
> cool rule to other /k/-final pejorative stems, i.e., "dick," "suck,"
> "fuck," and
> even "wank." (Of course, this use of "so" is in itself a cool rule or
> set of
> rules.)
>
> One would predict that we would begin to get constructions such as
> "That is
> so jerk" (especially since appositive "jerk" is already possible, as
> in "As it
> turns out, marrying a millionaire was a jerk idea."...

cool.  there's also adjective "prick":
   "LA is so prick," the musician chortles.
   Hey! You don't have to be so prick.
   When I find out what being 'so prick' is, i'll stop being it...

i've had no success finding clear adjectival uses of "cock", "jack", or
"whoop", however.  but there's a lot of noise in the searches.

the closest i got for "jack" was the following:
   It causes the really talented bands to "sell out" or cop a really
"jack" attitude.
which i read as involving the noun "jack" 'money' (though goodness
knows i could be wrong).

the scorecard so far: YES on adjective
   w(h)ack, dick, suck, fuck, wank, jerk, stink, prick
but NO (so far) on adjective
   cock, jack, whoop.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 01:16:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:16:03 -0500
Subject: Nacatamales (1945); Ranger Cookies (1950); Hard Knocks School
 (1878)
Message-ID: 

RANGER COOKIES (continued)

   I forgot to check Newspaperarchive.
   FWIW: Every Newspaperarchive "chilighetti" hit is from the 1970s.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Cedar Rapids Gazette - 9/11/1955
...Mr. and Mrs. Royal Russell Their favorites: RANGER COOKIES. 1 cup shortening 1 cup white.....in Wisconsin. I to keep a supply of COOKIES oni Mr. and Mrs. Charles ZimmerJ hand.....warm milk. Add nutmeats and vanilla. Drop COOKIES on greased cooky sheet and bake at..
Cedar Rapids, Iowa   Sunday, September 11, 1955  537 k

Kossuth County Advance - 9/25/1952
...Farm TOMATO JUICE tr 29c fOA SUGGESTS RANGER COOKIES GRANULATED SUGAR 99c 10-lb Bag..
Algona, Iowa   Thursday, September 25, 1952  698 k

Lethbridge Herald - 3/31/1951
...Makes 4 dozen 2-inch COOKIES. RANGER COOKIES enriched allBrown sugar, 1 cup.....KEEP THE COOKIE JAB FILLED Spicy Fruit COOKIES Dried prunes, moist Salt, teaspoon..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Saturday, March 31, 1951  665 k

Bradford Era - 12/14/1951
...past 15 years. Mrs. Guyer ces-: cribes her RANGER COOKIES ss ones -which well and are.....who hear a tinual cry for homemade COOKIES are offered a suggestion J from Mrs.....ally good to mail to servicemen. j RAXGER COOKIES I I Ingredients: 1 cup shortening. 1.....you want to pay. o6e nc. KIDDIES CHRISTMAS COOKIES SANTAS TREES STARS BELLS Munchy..
Bradford, Pennsylvania   Friday, December 14, 1951  661 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 1/21/1950
...Continued from Preceding Page RANGER COOKIES 1 cup butter 1 cup sugar 1 cup brown.....in an oven heated to 350 degrees. Spritz COOKIES 1 cup butter or margarine ?i cup.....or a damp cloth over the bot torn) or the COOKIES'' may be pui through a cookie press..
Iowa City, Iowa   Saturday, January 21, 1950  275 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 3/18/1952
...been favorites in our home for years, with RANGER COOKIES a close second. Been some time.....since I gave you that RANGER cookie recipe, hasn't it? Maybe.....wonder what would be the favorite of al Kj COOKIES, if we could get a vote Ion it? My.....some French chocolate to drink with the COOKIES or do you prefer cold milk? French..
Iowa City, Iowa   Tuesday, March 18, 1952  514 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
NACATAMAL

NACATAMALES--993 Google hits, 202 Google Groups hits

   I briefly looked into Nicaraguan materials at the NYPL today.  The revised OED (now well into the letter "n") doesn't have this?  There will be _no_ explanation anywhere of the regional tamale names--even though they're also used by English speakers?

(GOOGLE)
http://www.culinary-cooking-schools-institutes.com/history_tamales.html
   The different regional names for tamales are:

Nicaragua
Nacatamal

Guatemala
Paches and Chuchitos

Bolivia and Ecuador
Humita

Columbia
Bollo

Cuba, Mexico, South and Central America
Tamal

Michoacan, Mexico
Corunda

Veracruz, Mexico
Zacahull

Venezuela
Hallaca


MANAGUA (One in a series of pamphlets on Central America--ed.)
Pan American Union, Washington, D. C.
1945
Pg. 12:  One of the attractions of the business section is the large market on Calle Central, a block east of Avenida Roosevelt.  Practically all the products of Nicaragua are to be found here.  One may buy pork and poultry and such staples as beans, rice, tortillas, and frijoles, and the Nicaraguan form of hot tamales, _nacatamales_, which are deliciously cooked in banana leaves.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS

   I was just reading SOCKS ON A ROOSTER: LOUISIANA'S EARL K. LONG (1967) and it says that the Longs went to the School of Hard Knocks.  OED has "School of Hard Knocks" from 1912 (George Ade).  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "20C."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
THE UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS.
Advocate of Peace (1847-1906). Washington: Nov/Dec 1878. Vol. 9, Iss. 5; p. 2 (1 page)

BELLE FRASER'S GIRLHOOD.; GOING FOR A DRIVE. MISS MINNETTE.
HOLLIS FREEMAN. Godey's Lady's Book (1883-1892). New York: May 1887. Vol. 114, Iss. 683; p. 453 (8 pages)
Pg. 456: "Ah, yes, but I have received my outside coating of wisdom by graduating in the college of hard knocks.  There's nothing like that to take the gilt off your best peep-show."

KENNEL.; DOGS OF TO-DAY--THE AIREDALE TERRIER.
NOMAD. Outing, an Illustrated Monthly Magazine of Recreation (1885-1906). New York: Jul 1899. Vol. 34, Iss. 4; p. 415 (2 pages)
Pg. 415:  The colliers were a rough, hardy set, ready for anything, and their favorite dogs were bright disciples of the school of hard knocks.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Hornellsville Weekly Tribune - 2/28/1890
...or Harvard you got in tbe UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. Go among successful merchants.....OF persons did After ancxpot-itiijii by Dr. OF passages OF Scripture descriptive OF the.....What the greatest OF Englishmen said OF England is true OF America and OF all.....and an_ awakening OF great roll, men OF the jien, IIIRII OF wit, men OF power, if..
Hornellsville, New York   Friday, February 28, 1890  841 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 2/24/1890
...or Harvard you got in the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. Go among successful merchants.....an exposition by Dr. Talmago OF passages OF Scripture deacriptivo OF the influence OF.....Fullness OF Blood In the Head, Acidity OF the Stomach, Nausea, Heartburn, Disgust OF.....OF human happiness, these firmest props OF the duties OF men and citizens. The mere..
Sandusky, Ohio   Monday, February 24, 1890  1319 k

Daily Gazette - 11/11/1885
...unt Ithey graduate at the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. The old poets used to talk OF a.....a? it is iu the difference OF the endowment OF men with that great attribute OF stick'.o.....Buffalo Commercial] An old resident OF one OF the villages OF this county, name.....s general stock OF merchandise: 160 acres OF land, in Stark county. Ind. 22O acres OF..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Wednesday, November 11, 1885  787 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/13/1905
...to "get there" by attending the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS. Certainly the two most.....practical success." He was wise with the HARD wisdom OF the world; and he had the.....good for that part OF the state. Thr story OF Olinghouse is a story OF pluck and.....is well worth the careful consideration OF all young men, and is OF especial..
Reno, Nevada   Tuesday, June 13, 1905  427 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN STRAIGHT

   The HDAS has 1928 for a "Mexican flush," but no "Mexican straight."  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "20C."


SOCKS ON A ROOSTER:
LOUISIANA'S EARL K. LONG
by Richard B. McCaughan
Baton Rouge: Claitor's Book Store
1967
Pg. 182:  Long telephoned David Rankin and invited the boy to visit him in Louisiana.  Long related:

   If he stays here--Baton Rouge--any time he wants to go home, he can go.  That kid is smart.  You know, he beat me once in a poker game with a Mexican straight.* ... Mexican straight; that's not all you learn while you're in Texas.**

* A Mexican straight is 2-4-6-8-10.
** _Morning Advocate_, July 2, 1959, p. 10-A.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 02:02:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:02:35 -0500
Subject: Oprah's "Tossed Salad" of sex slang
Message-ID: 

   Howard Stern has mentioned that Oprah Winfrey can do the same thing--or worse--and not received any FCC fine at all.  The issue involves sex slang, so it may be of interest to record (although the Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has most of these terms).


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=405BDDE5.78ED%40captainjanks.tk&rnum=1

From: Tom Cipriano (captainjanks at captainjanks.tk)
Subject: IN CASE
View: Complete Thread (4 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.howard-stern
Date: 2004-03-20 03:00:37 PST

WARNING- this page contains EXTREME graphic content transcribed from the "Oprah Winfrey Show"
 FILE AN FCC COMPLAINT NOW!
 On 10/02/03, and 03/18/04 at approximately 4:36 PM EST. the "Oprah Winfrey Show" aired a segment in which Oprah held a conversation with a guest(Michelle Burford) on her show that I was outraged at, and considered indecent. So indecent, that the powers that be on the "Howard Stern Show" would not allow Howard Stern to play a tape of the segment on his show. Therefore, I ask fellow Howard Stern fans, and anyone reading this to register a complaint with the FCC reporting the incident. The FCC asks that you provide the name of the show, in this case the "Oprah Winfrey Show", heard in New York on ABC,(check your local listings for the station in your area) and a transcript. The lady who is speaking with Oprah is Michelle Burford, a writer for "O" magazine, (Oprah's magazine) and had interviewed fifty 13 year old kids regarding sex. She has no medical credentials that are stated on the website, on the show, or in the transcript.
   Here is a transcript of the conversation:

WINFREY: Yeah. So you say--let's talk about that secret language, Michelle.
Ms. BURFORD: Yes.
WINFREY: I didn't know any of this.
Ms. BURFORD: I have--yeah, I have--I've gotten a whole new vocabulary, let me tell you.
WINFREY: I did not know any of this. Does this--does this mean I am no longer hip?
REED: ...(Unintelligible).
Ms. BURFORD: Salad-tossing. I'm thinking cucumbers, lettuce, tomatoes. OK?  I am definitely not hip.
WINFREY: OK--so--OK, so what is a salad toss?
Ms. BURFORD: OK, a tossed salad is--get ready; hold on to your underwear for this one--oral anal sex. So oral sex to the anus is what tossed salad is.  Hi, Mom. OK. A rainbow party is an oral sex party. It's a gathering where oral sex is performed. And a--rainbow comes from--all of the girls put on lipstick and each one puts her mouth around the penis of the gentleman or gentlemen who are there to receive favors and makes a mark in a different place on the penis, hence, the term rainbow.  So...
WINFREY: OK. And so what does pre--so what does pretty boy mean? A pretty boy.
Ms. BURFORD: Pretty boy is a sexually active boy, someone who's been fairly promiscuous. So it isn't maybe what you would have thought pretty boy meant in your time.
WINFREY: And dirty means what? Does dirty mean...
Ms. BURFORD: Dirty mean a diseased--means a diseased girl. And along with that the term that some teens are using to mean HIV is High Five, `high' and then the Roman numeral `V.' High Five. So if you got High-Fived by Jack, you got diseased by Jack. You got--you got HIV.
WINFREY: It means he gave you HIV.
Ms. BURFORD: He gave you HIV. Yeah.
WINFREY: So that means you shouldn't...
REED: Really.
WINFREY: ...go around saying to little kids anymore--I was talking to a little boy and I went `Give me high five.'
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah.
WINFREY: You shouldn't--you shouldn't do that anymore. Right.
Ms. BURFORD: And if suddenly your kids want to make salad all the time, you should be wondering. OK.
WINFREY: Yeah. OK. And boo--booty call is pretty common, right?
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah, that's--yeah, that's pretty pervasive.  Yeah, that's an early morning or late-at-night call for sex that involves no real relationship. Maybe 2 AM, guy calls girl, and says, `Meet me at so and so location, we have sex, we leave,' booty call. You all got that, right?
WINFREY: Y'all knew that one, right? OK.
Ms. BURFORD: And then there's the term hoovering, which is a term used for a girl having an abortion, the--the--yes, you get--you get the reference, the sucking of a Hoover vacuum. She's having herself vacuumed out, so to speak.  So these were just a few of the terms that I, you know, heard teens referring to. I got a whole new vocabulary book. You know...
REED: So did I.
Ms. BURFORD: Really.
WINFREY: So what happened when they would say she got hoovered to you?
Ms. BURFORD: She got...
WINFREY: Well, if somebody--if you're talking to somebody in the beginning before you got so hip here...
Ms. BURFORD: Right. Yeah. Before I got hip.
WINFREY: ...yeah, what would you--what would you--if somebody said she got hoovered, you would just say, `What do you mean by that?'
Ms. BURFORD: I said--yeah, `What do you mean? What do you mean?  What does hoovering mean?' And she'd tell me.
WINFREY: Are rainbow parties pretty common?
Ms. BURFORD: I think so. At least among the 50 girls that I talked to, this was--this was pervasive.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah.
WINFREY: And--and what are the guys saying about all this?
Ms. BURFORD: Well, I didn't talk to guys, but certainly in the experiences that I've had in talking to the boys, they don't see sex--and this should be no surprise to any of us--in the same way that girls see it. They don't see it as a way to feel closer or to have the kind of intimacy that maybe a girl is looking for. They see it as a way to earn stripes or be cool with the other guys.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Ms. BURFORD: And let me tell you something. Girls are doing more giving than they are getting. They are giving the boys the oral sex. Absolutely. Some of the boys aren't even asking them for it and they are offering it.

                Copyright 2003 HARPO PRODUCTIONS INC www.oprah.com
                                        OCTOBER 02, 2003

                                         **************
                   You can hear an wav file of this transcript by linking HERE.  This show aired twice- the first time on October 2nd, 2003, and again on March 18, 2004, at approximately 36 minutes past the hour WE NEED EVERYONE THAT READS THIS TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH THE FCC!
(...)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar 21 02:55:30 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:55:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Prioritize"
In-Reply-To: <52236FBD.14F43E9A.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

prioritize (OED 1973)

1961 _Wash. Post_ 5 Mar. E2 (ProQuest)  But in all fairness, the District
could do a better job of presenting its program.  It often fails to
"prioritize" its requests, to use a silly word that just came to my
attention the other day as the latest contribution to government jargon.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 03:11:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:11:03 -0500
Subject: Howard Stern's "blumpkin," "balloon knot," "David Copperfield"
Message-ID: 

   This is the other entry in this week's FCC debate.  VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.
   (OT TO SELF:  And they locked up...Martha Stewart?)


http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=21312
Content Behind Stern Fine? "Blumpkins" and "Balloon Knots"

March 19, 2004

The nearly three-year-old broadcast that brought Howard Stern his first indecency fine since June '98 involved Stern and his crew defining terms like "blumpkin," "balloon knot" and "the David Copperfield" -- phrases used in regular rotation by Opie & Anthony before they were cancelled by Infinity in August 02.

The content cited in Thursday's $27,500 fine against Infinity was a July 26, 2001 Stern show that triggered a complaint by a listener of Stern affiliate WKRK/Detroit. That's the same station facing a $27,000 forfeiture for Deminski & Doyle, a fine recently upheld by the FCC.

Infinity maintains that the Stern material wasn't actionably indecent and didn't contain any description or depiction of sexual or excretory organs or activities in a patently offensive manner.  Infinity also argues that the Commission's generic indecency definition is unconstitutional.

In previous rulings, the Commission's fined not only the station cited in the complaint but others that aired the same broadcast.  So far, it's only fined 'KRK -- something that's not sitting well with Commissioners Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein.  Both chided the Commission for not fining other Stern affiliates in their statements, with Copps suggesting  that 'KRK's indecency track record warranted more "than a slap on the wrist."

Here's the transcript from the FCC notice:

Radio Station:  WKRK-FM, Detroit, MI
Date/Time of Broadcast:  July 26, 2001, 6:30 a.m. to 7:30 a.m.
Material Broadcast:  The Howard Stern Show

HS:  Howard Stern
RQ:  Robin Quivers
MV:  Male Cast Member

HS:  I said to Mark Wahlberg yesterday, had he ever gotten a blumpkin from a girl and everyone around here is acting like they don't know what it is.

RQ:  You're the only nutcase who does.

MV:  I said "blumpkin" on the "Norm Show" and the network censor, we told him we just made the word up.  He goes, "that's definitely not a real word right?"  We go, no,no,no. And I said it, I yelled out at a hooker in a cab.

HS:  What do you say to her, "how about a blumpkin?"

MV:  I go "honey, how much for a blumpkin?"

HS:  Right.

MV:  And uh the network censor never heard of it.  And he goes if you just made it up it's fine but if it's a real thing we can't have it.  So it's aired, it's been on ABC, it's like the dirtiest thing ever on television.

HS:  Yeah, but nobody knows what it is.  A blumpkin… I can explain it cleanly.

RQ:  There's nothing clean about a blumpkin.

HS:  Well, a blumpkin is receiving oral sex while you're sitting on a toilet bowl if you are a man.  You're sitting on a toilet bowl and uh, while you're evacuating you receive your oral.

RQ:  Ick.

HS:  And uh, then, what did I say yesterday too you didn't understand?  Balloon knot?

RQ:  Yes, I don't know what that is.  Somebody said to me "is that the funniest thing ever?" and I was like "what is that?"

HS:  A balloon knot…

RQ:  I didn't want to show my ignorance, I laughed too.

HS:   A balloon knot…  I'm gonna post these on a web site…

RQ:  Yeah, we need a dictionary for this show.

HS:  A balloon knot is when you bend over and I can see up right up your old…

RQ:  Up the wazoo?

HS:  Up the wazoo and uh, you know that's a balloon knot that you see.  That's called a "balloon knot."

RQ:  Really, I did not know that.

HS:  Think about it, it looks like a balloon knot.

RQ:  I don't know.  Oh… you know what…

HS:  Tie up a balloon.

RQ:  I'm just thinking of a balloon knot…

MV:  It all makes sense, Robin, come on.

HS:  And uh, what else did I say?  "Nasty Sanchez," you didn't know what that was.

RQ:  Oh, I don't even want to know half the time what these things are…

HS:  That I'd have to post on the internet.

RQ:  'Cause there've been a number of terms used lately.  Would you do…  'cause KC's always blurtin' them out.

HS:  "Strawberry shortcake"

RQ:  "Strawberry shortcake" I've never heard of.  "Dirty Sanchez"

HS:  "Nasty Sanchez."

RQ:  What is the others KC?

MV:  I heard a new one the other day.  It was the "David Copperfield."

HS/RQ:  That's right.

MV:  Okay, do you want to explain it, since I...  When you're goin' like a dog…

HS:  Right.

MV:  …and you're about to finish and instead you don't finish, you spit on her and then you turn around and when she turns her face around then you go…  So it's kind of like an illusion…

HS:  Right.

MV:  to David Copperfield.

RQ:  Sleight of hand.

HS:  Misdirection.

MV:  Classic misdirection.

HS:  You trick her.  There's a million of them, but uh, I'll post them on the web.

RQ:  Yes, because people need to know.  These aren't in the regular dictionary.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 17:36:42 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:36:42 EST
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
Message-ID: 

A.
One thing that comes to mind is the old slang term BOSS, surely stemming from 
the verb (or noun), but a slang adjectival for a long time. So the shift is 
clearly not limited to words ending in /k/. at least historically.

B.
I Googled for a number of different of "cock" combinations, and a few worked. 
Part of the difficulty with this kind of research is that "cock" appears with 
a number of different words in nonsense pornography leaders (e.g., "cock 
idea") so it takes forever to get to any real examples. And then, of course, it is 
often the case that the word in question is undoubtledly (or probably) being 
used attributatively, not adjectivially. But I did find the followingh 
likelycandidates:

1.
I found this at , which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be adjectival, 
not attribtive:

"Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely cock 
idea!"

2.
>From the same website, but <
http://www.talkingcock.com/html/article.php?sid=973>

like the line from the movie, "it's a real COCK idea, man!" =D

3.
Yes, these are both from Singapore, and it seems that adjective cock is found 
in Singapore English, as the following, from an online Singapore swearing 
glossary, indicates (at ):

How to swear, insult, cuss and curse in Singlish!
 Singlish language swear words and phrases and their English translations.
 (Singapore recognizes four official languages: English, Mandarin, Malay and 
Tamil. Singaporeans also speak a peculiar brand of English called "Singlish". 
This mixes English with Chinese dialects (mostly Hokkien) and some Malay.) <
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/singlish.htm>

Singlish Swearing   English Translation
Hong Gan                 Get fucked!
Kgum Lan                Whatever the hell for? (lit. Suck balls)
...
Bo Ji / Bo Lum Pa     No balls
Gan Piah                   Fuck the wall
Gan Di Du                 Fuck a spider
Hor Gui Gan              Fucked by ghost
Hor Gau Gan             Fucked by dog
Lan Jiao Lang          Cock person (Jerk / Bastard)
Kena sai Disgraced! (lit. to be stained by shit)
Chee Bye Chwee       Pussy mouth
ETC.

4.
Here is what seems to be a fairly good candidate from the US, but they are 
admittedly few and far between (from Morel - Life/Blogger 6/01-7/03 at <
http://morelworld.com/oldlife.html>): 

july 18, 2002-- the band just left. Things are going well . Things are also 
hard. What is important isn't necessarily what you want. Its hard to pass up 
what you want for what is important. . What is home? I guess home is the people 
around you. I am home right now. "Kid got the handshake- kid make the earth 
quake and the dream lets me down...you shake a storm up-I'll turn the porn up- 
I'm cool when you're around"
 june 20,2002 -- my friend Jack Pierson came down to visit and take pictures 
of the band. We all had a good time hanging out. I'll post some pics later 
this week.Working on a new song. Going to go to the beach to chill for a few 
days.
 june 14, 2002-- 3:00 am-- the band came over-- things unraveled as the night 
progressed- at least on my end. Everything I'm writing about is wrapped up in 
the band. All of my usual cock attitude has lost its way lately-and I'm into 
it.

5. 
Another good candidate for adjectival "cock" is in the following DVD review, 
in which "cock attitude" is used to describe a yung woman (at <
http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/691.php>):


 Shadow Skill
Released By:Manga Entertainment

Running time:120 minutes
Reviewed By:Chris Beveridge

...


In a war torn world of deadly conflict, one small group of heroes stand 
against the forces of darkness, armed with only two weapons: their unswerving 
dedication to good and the superhuman martial art known as the Shadow Skill. For 
fourteen year old Gau, it is time once again for him to return to the graves of 
his parents, murdered by bandits when he was just ten. In the company of his 
adoptive sister Ella, Gau quickly comes to realize that his journey is more 
than a pilgrimage, and that his combat abilities as a student fo the Karuda 
school of martial arts are about to be pushed to the breaking point. Will he ever 
discover the secret of the Shadow Skill?


Made up of three OVA's and an epilogue OVA, Shadow Skill is another tale 
delivered to us by Hiroshi Negishi, one of the more controversial directors out 
there depending on your point of view.

...

Content: (please note that content portions of a review may contain spoilers)


Shadow Skill is the story of Gau Ban and his adoptive older sister Ella Ragu. 
We're introduced to young fourteen year old Gau training near the city where 
his older adoptive sister is about to go into the arena to fight for the title 
of becoming a Sevalle. The Kurada section of the world has evolved into a 
warrior based society over the past 2000 years and during these competitions, the 
winner is bestowed the title and honor of Sevalle, which is the name of those 
who ruled.

After a brief encounter with someone who was watching Gau train in a 
mysterious fighting mode, he heads to the arena to watch the even. Ella's got the cock 
attitude of a seventeen year old whose a master in the Shadow Skill, a rare 
and powerful fighting technique. She's going up against Baslek, a rather 
imposing and tall beefy creature who keeps on fighting even after losing entire 
limbs.

6.
"Big-cock" seems to be adjectival in the following album review (at<
http://www.musicdish.com/mag/index.php3?id=4001>):

 The Black Halos - The Violent Years
Sub Pop
 By: Holly Day (Associate Writer)
2001-06-21
 Artist: The Black Halos
Title: The Violent Years
Label: Sub Pop (www.subpop.com)
P.O. Box 20645, Seattle, WA 98102
Format: CD, 39 minutes
 Cool, retro, noisy, garage punk rock drawing heavily on the foundation the 
Ramones and the New York Dolls laid down, with lots of big cock attitude and 
awesome, sloppy lead guitar that barely stretches past the three-chord limit of 
these songs. The songs are fun to listen to, but it's sometimes hard to tell 
one song from the next, they're so similar (excluding the notable cover of Joy 
Division's "Warsaw", which is, to be honest, an awfully hard song to fuck up), 
and even have similar themes running through them, most notably, the idea 
that "the underground isn't the underground any more" and numerous references to 
people selling out, almost as if these songs are the bitter, sarcastic answer 
to the questions of identity and culture posed by the first generation of punk 
rock.

No time now to explore more!!!!


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Sun Mar 21 17:51:26 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:51:26 +0000
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
found this at

>  artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
> adjectiva= l,=20
> not attribtive:
>
> "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
> cock=20 idea!"


I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my preferred
plural of penis).

British English has the word _cack_, which means 'feces' or 'to defecate
in' (e.g., _cack one's pants_).  If you google 'cack idea', you'll get lots
of examples from the UK and Australia.  It may be that 'cock' is how it's
spelt in Singapore English--or that this writer has misspelt it or
folk-etymologied it over to 'cock' (if they didn't know 'cack').

Incidentally, this word always comes up when I discuss the word 'khaki'
with English people (it comes up a lot...).  In the UK, it's pronounced
like US 'car key'--with a definite /r/ in it (though NODE doesn't show
this).  The t-shirt shop round the corner from my house has even spelt it
'kharki' in their ad.  When I've asked why there's an 'r' in it, I've been
told that otherwise it would sound like 'cocky', which would be confusing.
I point out that Americans get round this by pronouncing it with an /ae/,
and they point out that that would sound like _cacky_ 'shitty' in British
English.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 18:28:13 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:28:13 EST
Subject: Singapore COCK is probably not CACK
Message-ID: 

I certainly wouldn't want to rule out the possiblity that Singapore "cock" is 
sometimes fecal rather than penile. However, the Singapore slang spelling 
with "o" rather than "a" would seem to me to indicate a rounded vowel, whereas 
the fecal word is universally pronounced with an unrounded vowel.

Moreover, the same website distinguishes sharply between "cack" and "cock", 
as the following entries make clear:

cack noun
1. Shit.
2. Nonsense.
3. Lies.
...
cock breath noun
One whose breath smells of cock.
cockholster noun
A pejorative term for a sexually promiscuous woman.
cock jockey noun
1. A promiscuous gay male.
2. A promiscuous woman.
cocksucker noun
A mean or despicable person.
cockweasel noun
1. An annoying person.
2. A promiscuous woman.

Admitedly, "cockbreath" and maybe "cockweasel" are possibly ambiguous, but 
cetainly not "cock jockey" and "cockholster," wherein "cock" can only be penile.

I didn't examine the web site too closely, but it is obvious that the 
compilers have put quite a bit of care into it. I'm fairly convinced that they would 
not confuse their penises (or, if they don't personally have them the penises 
in their lives, if any) with their feces.

In other words, an absolutely cock idea is not the same thing as an 
absolutely cack idea. By the way, many Americans also have "ka-ka" or "ca-ca" for feces 
(as in Spanish). Of course, many Americans pronounce "cock" = penis with an 
unrounded vowel, but I doubt that that is too important to the situation in 
Singapore.


In a message dated 3/21/04 1:01:54 PM, M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK writes:


> --On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
> found this at
> 
> >  > artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
> > adjectiva= l,=20
> > not attribtive:
> >
> > "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
> > cock=20 idea!"
> 
> 
> I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my preferred
> plural of penis).
> 
> British English has the word _cack_, which means 'feces' or 'to defecate
> in' (e.g., _cack one's pants_).  If you google 'cack idea', you'll get lots
> of examples from the UK and Australia.  It may be that 'cock' is how it's
> spelt in Singapore English--or that this writer has misspelt it or
> folk-etymologied it over to 'cock' (if they didn't know 'cack').
> 
> Incidentally, this word always comes up when I discuss the word 'khaki'
> with English people (it comes up a lot...).  In the UK, it's pronounced
> like US 'car key'--with a definite /r/ in it (though NODE doesn't show
> this).  The t-shirt shop round the corner from my house has even spelt it
> 'kharki' in their ad.  When I've asked why there's an 'r' in it, I've been
> told that otherwise it would sound like 'cocky', which would be confusing.
> I point out that Americans get round this by pronouncing it with an /ae/,
> and they point out that that would sound like _cacky_ 'shitty' in British
> English.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> 
> Department of Linguistics and English Language
> Arts B133
> University of Sussex
> Falmer
> Brighton BN1 9QN
> >From UK:  (01273) 678844
> Outside UK: +44-1273-678844
> 
> 


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar 21 18:59:44 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:59:44 -0800
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1079891486@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 21, 2004, at 9:51 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> --On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
> found this at
>
>> > artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
>> adjectival, not attribtive:
>>
>> "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
>> cock=20 idea!"
>
>
> I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my
> preferred
> plural of penis).

(an idea that lynne then defends.)

while we're on this soiled subject, i note that there are a fair number
of occurrences of adjective "shit", as in "how shit a".  many are
clearly british --

   ... anything. But for wank shafts like yourself to just stand there
and
  tell ppl how shit a band is after one gig takes the fucking piss. ...
  www.drownedinsound.com/articles/3811.html

but some are american --

... skatings there for you to skate not to sit on your hole and write
how shit a
  product is ME. Me sucks. You. Anyone who buys one of those kits is a
dick. ...
  www.skateboardingsucks.com/139.php

(i note with amusement that my google query for "how shit a" citations
was immediately catalogued on the website.  also that the slogan of
Skateboarding Sucks is "Crailtaps?  Fuck That, Roast Beef Early
Grabs!", an expression of which the only part i can interpret is "fuck
that".)

and a few even have the "of" with exceptional degree modifiers --

... Physics...what a fucking nightmare, I hate my teacher so much, the
fucker
  can't even teach, I cannot even stress how shit of a teacher he is. ...
  www.livejournal.com/users/chali/970.html

there are parallel examples with "how crap (of) a", for example:

... dress up as Shaggy. Wow! That would of got me to go see that film
regardless
  of how crap of a review it was. But it never happened ...
  64.160.250.67/djtoucan/ateam.htm

these are entirely natural developments (roughly parallel to the
history of "fun"): a mass noun used predicatively ("The product is
shit/crap") is open for reinterpretation as an evaluative adjective and
can then appear adnominally as an adjective.

(note that the mass nouns can appear adnominally as *nouns*, even for
me -- but then they're in a compound-noun construction.  i can say "a
shit idea", but that conveys "an idea that is shit" with the
predicative *noun* "shit".  similarly with "a fun time", which i can
say, though i can't say "how fun (of) a time".)

a nice prediction here is that, since the noun "piss" isn't
conventionally used predicatively for evaluation ("That idea is piss"
takes some major interpretive work), we wouldn't expect it to have an
adjective counterpart:  no "how piss (of) a".  i haven't found any such
examples, on webpage searches or newsgroup searches.

to return to "cock", i don't find any relevant examples of "how cock
(of) a".  so i'm somewhat suspicious of some of the examples, which
might be noun-noun compounds.  certainly i'd interpret "big-cock
attitude" that way, as 'attitude of someone who (thinks he) has a big
cock".  probably "cock attitude" also: 'attitude of someone with a
cock, macho attitude'.  of course, such compound uses can serve as a
transition to reinterpretation of the adnominal word as an adjective,
so some varieties might be on their way to "cock" as a true adjective.
("giant" seems to have gone this way for me; i have "a more giant
rally" and "how giant a rally".  i believe that "monster" has gone this
way for some speakers, though not (yet) for me.)

to return to the original point, about "w(h)ack" and its relatives
"suck", "stink", etc.  it's hard to assimilate these developments to
the noun>adjective development of "fun", "giant", "shit", and others.
ron butters has a very interesting idea about a separate path for
"w(h)ack" and its buddies, however.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 22:06:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:06:29 EST
Subject: Got up on wrong side of bed (1862)
Message-ID: 

WRONG SIDE OF THE BED--12,700 Google hits, 10,600 Google Groups hits
  
   No, that's not the problem.  The problem was I got up at 4 p.m.  I gotta 
go to some War College tomorrow, you know, the whole ten yards.
   This expression hasn't been historically dated.  The wrong side of the bed 
is usually the wall.
   It's not in OED.  The editors were too busy eating nacatamales.
   OT:  Me and the wife Jennifer Lopez have a four-poster.
    
  
(GOOGLE)
www.bartleby.com
  The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition.  2002.    
get up on the wrong side of the bed 
      
To act unpleasant because the day got off to a bad start: “You’d better 
avoid the boss today; she got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.”   1 
  
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-wro1.htm
[Q] From Jim on AOL: “I was hoping you could help me out. You’ve heard about 
getting out of the wrong side of bed? What is considered the wrong side? And 
could you give me a little history on the saying?”
[A] The wrong side of the bed is the one that leaves you grumpy and 
unsociable first thing in the morning (my own has two wrong sides). There are many 
similar expressions that begin the wrong side of ..., of which the original seems 
to be wrong side of the blanket for a child born illegitimately. Some others 
are getting on the wrong side of somebody, the wrong side of the law, laughing 
on the wrong side of one’s mouth, and on the wrong side of forty (or thirty, 
or fifty, or almost any age, really).All express the idea that there are good 
and bad aspects of any situation. A well-known American example, the wrong side 
of the tracks, is the only one of the set that seems to be based in a real, 
physical location.Some writers say there was once a superstition that to get 
out of bed on the left side, the sinister side, led to bad luck, but this sounds 
like a well-meaning attempt to explain the mysterious. If there ever was such 
a belief, it’s not reflected in the recorded use of the expression, which is 
actually not that old; it seems to have been derived from another phrase of 
similar type.
    
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mansfield News - 2/25/1910  
...She bas THE uti Don't "Get Up on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED" So OFten. j 
One tiling.....not unlovely habit OF "getting up on THE WRONG SIDE OF ocd" to 
obtain THE mastery over.....center, a dying Confederate soldier ou one SIDE aud 
a weeping woman on THEoTHEr. THE.....would serve THE public, and she would 
servo THE employees OF THE Htorc. THE value OF Hfe..
Mansfield, Ohio Friday, February 25, 1910  935 k    
    
Indianapolis Star - 7/21/1916   
...for 'tis said If one gets out OF THE WRONG SIDE OF BED In THE morning he 
will be grouchy.....but unfortunately chose THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED THE SIDE 
next to THE window, which.....about Lydia E. VegetaEvery BED has a right SIDE 
and a WRONG SIDE, at least so tradition.....Hospital. BED Near Window; Man 
Gets Out WRONG SIDE; ties in Hospital Now JTO1ML WRECK..
Indianapolis, Indiana Friday, July 21, 1916  1065 k     
    
Newark Advocate - 8/7/1905  
...He Is surely raising Ned. It's THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. [Ie is coming 
down to.....ve really cause for dreadIt's THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. Chicago 
News. PARSON'S.....has. got out from THE left 'twas THE WRONG SIDE, sure, instead 
OF THE right SIDE OF THE.....but he refused to be placated. He went to BED 
still sulking, and when he awoke in THE..
Newark, Ohio Monday, August 07, 1905  834 k     
    
Hawaiian Gazette - 9/18/1896    
...against THE wall in getting out THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. R, C. L. 
Perkins, THE.....effort to OF BED as quickly as possible, WRONG SIDE, and, in THE 
darkness bang; up.....on THE door brought THE young man from BED and when told 
that THEre had been a shock.....from some OF THE most remote provinces OF 
Chile. On account OF THE closeiesB OF THE..
Honolulu, Hawaii Friday, September 18, 1896  662 k      
    
Daily Independent - 10/5/1909   
...nolr your true croole gets up on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. He has no 
appetite for.....when THE house OF lords was in committee on THE reform bill OF 
18C7. THE clerk OF THE.....Approved THE 29th day OF April 187-1 and THE 
supplements THEreto, for THE charter OF a.....all THE bonetits and privileges OF THE 
aoi OF assembly and its supplements. 119 ;u.w THE..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, October 05, 1909  748 k     
    
Edwardsville Intelligencer - 4/26/1901  
...had evidently gotten out OF BED from THE WRONG SIDE. Something was THE 
matter at least.....water. Since THEn Bob gets out OF THE right SIDE OF THE BED 
when morning comes and 'he.....OFfice In Intelligencer Building, South SIDE OF 
Court House Sauare. J. E. HILLSKOXTER.....OFfice over Bank OF Edwardsville, 
North SIDE Court Square. OFfice telephone 442..
Edwardsville, Illinois Friday, April 26, 1901  725 k    
  
  
(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Blackmore, R. D. (Richard Doddridge), 1825-1900.
Title: Alice Lorraine. A tale of the South Downs. By R. D. Blackmore.
Publication date: 1875.
Collection: Making of America Books
Page 120  - 1 term matching "wrong side of the bed" 
   His workmen winked at one another, and said (as soon as he was gone by) 
that he must have got out the wrong side of the bed, or else the old lady had 
been rating of him.
    
  
(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Living age ... / Volume 123, Issue 1589: pp. 449-512 
p. 492 1 match of 'wrong side of the bed' in: Title:    The Living age ... / 
Volume 123, Issue 1589   
Publisher:  The Living age co. inc. etc.    Publication Date:   November 21, 
1874 
City:   New York etc.   Pages:  834 page images in vol. 
(Same as above.  From BLACKWOOD'S MAGAZINE--ed.)
  
  
(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): Victoria, or, The Heiress of Castle Cliffe 
(1862) 1 match in 1 of 142 pages
CHAPTER X. 
for a milliner, or a lady's maid, at once?" / "My dear friend, I am afraid 
you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, you're so uncommon 
savage; but I can overlook that and the few o  
    

(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Print Source:   Clifford and the actress, or, The reigning favorite
Blount, Margaret.
Philadelphia : Peterson, [18--?].   
Pg. 118  "What is the matter with this woman, my friends?"
   "She's got out of the wrong side of the bed, that's all!" cried one.
   "Too 'arly!: added another.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar 21 22:15:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:15:13 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316211000.02f167a0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 6:12 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:

> How does one explain "dive/dove/dived"? [not my paradigm BTW]

apparently a simple question.  but the answer is interestingly complex.
  [if i were going to have a gravestone, something very much like that
last sentence would have  to be engraved on it.]

the simple answer would be that this is as in stride/strode/strided --
a heteroclite pattern (mixing forms from different paradigms) that is
possible but very unlikely.  what would be required is an irregular
past, plus a past participle that regularizes not according to the most
easily available generalization (the past/pastparticiple
generalization), but all the way back to the pattern of fully regular
verbs (in defiance of the past/pastparticiple generalization), in which
the past participle has the d-suffix.

doug wilson notes that dive/dove/dived isn't his paradigm.  it is,
however, pretty well attested in the u.s.  it isn't my paradigm,
either, but it almost could be.  in contrast, stride/strode/strided
just sounds weird to me, and though i don't doubt that it's attested
for a few speakers, it has nothing like the currency of dive/dove/dived
in the u.s.

in addition, while stride/strode/strode is not infrequent,
dive/dove/dove is (i think) quite rare.

why would there be an asymmetry between the two cases?

the answer lies in history.  stride/strode goes way back, but dive/dove
is (i recall from sources on the subject) a relatively recent
item-by-item analogy (presumably to drive/drove) that replaced the
perfectly regular dive/dived for some (mostly u.s.) speakers.  (the
MWDEU entry for "dove" is quite entertaining.)  so the past participle
"dived" is a relic, maintained in the face of a minor analogy that
replaced the older past tense "dived".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Mar 21 22:19:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:19:07 -0500
Subject: Lobengulous
In-Reply-To: <200403210505.i2L55Q2f008868@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

This afternoon, while my wife and I were browsing in Antique Row in
Philadelphia, my eye was caught by the title on a framed antique colored
cartoon: "A NEW ADJECTIVE". The cartoon was from some printed document
that looked to me late 19th century American; the manager of the store
(Lunacy Antiques) could not provide any more information.

The scene is a tailor's shop; there is a placard reading
          >>>
        Jones
         ---
        Tailor
          -
        Hatter
          <<<

On the left is a portly gentleman with a dark complexion; I didn't
examine the cartoon to see to what degree, if any, the complexion was in
the print, as opposed to the after-applied color. On the right is a
stick-thin tailor bowing obsequiously. The caption reads (speaker
labels, quotation marks, capitalization, and italics as in original):

        >>>
Customer: "You'll find I measure a bit more round the waist than I did
last time you took my measure."

Tailor: "Ah, well, Sir, if I may be allowed to say so, you _are_ a
trifle more -- ah -- more _Lobengulous_ than formerly."
        <<<

The cartoon is signed "J. F. Sullivan".

A Google search for "Lobengulous" yielded no hits. Lemmatizing to
"lobengul" produced nine hits and the suggestion "Did you mean:
lobengula". These two are especially relevant; the first was duplicated
in many other places.

=====

http://www.bartleby.com/65/lo/Lobengul.html
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.  2001.

Lobengula

c.1833-94, king of Matabeleland (now in Zimbabwe). After succeeding his
father (1870), he tried to turn aside the approaches of European
colonizers. In 1888, however, under pressure from Cecil Rhodes, he ceded
his mineral rights in exchange for small payment, and Rhodes used those
concessions to form the British South Africa Company (1889). When
British gold miners began appearing, Lobengula rallied his people and in
1893 attacked the British. The results were disastrous for the Ndebele
(Matabele); Lobengula died while fleeing north.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright © 2003 Columbia
University Press.

=====

http://csf.colorado.edu/ipe/zimbabwe_seminar/rhodes.html

(Portraits of Rhodes & King Lobengula. The King could well have been the
model for the Customer. The Tailor might have been based on Rhodes, but
I'd have to go back to look at the cartoon.)

On July 11, 1890 the Pioneer Column crossed the Shashi River and entered
Matabeleland. Their mission was to skirt the border of the Ndebele
kingdom and head north to establish a new country beyond the Hunyani
River. The whole expedition was the result of a contract between Cecil
John Rhodes and 23 year old Frank Johnson. The later agreed to organize
the occupation of Mashonaland for £87,500.

For three years the settlers in Mashonaland enjoyed relative peace, but
a clash with the armies of King Lobengula of the Ndebele was inevitable.
In July 1893, on the pretext of a relatively minor skirmish, the White
Settlers entered Matabeleland in strength. The pride of the Ndebele army
was cut down by the Maxim guns of the invaders and King Lobengula had to
flee from Bulawayo, meeting his death soon after.

=====

So it seems likely that the cartoon dates from the period 1888-1893. The
"new adjective" is evidently a nonce word. Anyone want to look further?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 22 00:13:06 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:13:06 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <92.65d7461.2d8f2caa@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
"cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....

The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
"cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.

I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
(cf "poppycock").

I don't know for sure what "cock idea" means in the Ah Seng cartoon, but I
would tentatively take it to mean "nonsense idea" (cf. "cockamamie" [?]).

In some cases on the Web especially, "cock" may be a variant of -- or an
error for -- "cocky".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 00:28:42 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:28:42 EST
Subject: "Nacatamal," "Rosquillas," "Vaho" and Nicaraguan food;
 "New-Haveners"
Message-ID: 

   Maybe I'll do a trip to Nicaragua + El Salvador and finish up the Western
Hemisphere, but that tour is usually cancelled for lack of interest.
   "Rosquillas" is also not in the OED.  They don't pay me beans for...well,
they don't even pay me beans...Not related to "the Windy City."

ROSQUILLAS--11,900 Google hits, 860 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE)
[RTF] Rosquillas-msg
File Format: Rich Text Format - View as HTML
Rosquillas -msg - 6/20/01. A late-period Spanish pastry which "look like
bagels and taste like biscotti". ... Subject: SC - Rosquillas (recipe). ...
www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/ Rosquillas-msg.rtf - Similar pages


AREA HANDBOOK FOR NICARAGUA
co-authors John Morris Ryan, et al.
Prepared for The American University
by Johnson Research Associates
Research and writing were completed on 17 March 1969
Published July 1970

Pg. 103:  Corn, as the most frequently grown crop in almsot all regions,
serves as the basic ingredient of the rural diet and is prepared in various ways.
It is eaten green, both in the form of tiny ears of corn, _chilotes_, and as
the larger green _elotes_.  After being thoroughly matured, harvested and
dried, it is prepared as _tortillas_, to be found at most meals in every
household.  The _masa_ or corn paste is also prepared into _tamales_, and
_nacatamales_.  The _nacatamal_ is basically similar to the _tamal_, but in addition to the
_masa_ and a small piece of meat, it often includes tomatoes, potatoes, rice,
yuca, chili and some kind of meat of fowl.  There is also a dish called
_rosquillas_ prepared from corn and cheese.
   Various types of drinks are prepared from corn.  _Atol_ is made from the
_masa_ of green corn, and _atolillo_ of dry corn.  _Pinol_ is made of toasted
corn, and _pinolillo_ of toasted corn and cacao.  _Chicha_, fermented from corn
with the addition of crude sugar, is a fairly common drink; equally common is
_cususa_, the distilled _aguardiente_, (liquor) made from _chicha_.  _Cususa_
is prepared by the _campesino_ in clandestine stills which ar found over most
of the countryside.
   In many rural houses of the Pacific belt, a frame of poles is set on the
rafters over the hearth; on this frame are stored the cheeses, salt, and grains
in order to keep them dry and to keep insects and rodents out of them.
Common among the rural population of the highlands are _bunques_, large board boxes
in which corn, sorghum and beans are stored.
Pg. 367 (GLOSSARY):
_atilillo_--Drink  made from dry corn.
_atol_--Drink made from green corn.
_bateas_--Wooden dishes.
_bunques_--Storage bins for foods, Pacific region.
_cantinas_--Bars.
_chicha_--Fermented drink made from corn.
_chilotes_--Ears of green corn.
_cususa_--Distilled liquor made from chica.
_elotes_--Large ears of green corn.
Pg. 368:
_masa_--Corn paste.
_nacatamales_--Dish including meat, corn paste, tomatoes, potatoes, rice,
yuca, chili.
Pg. 369:
_pinole_--Drink made from toasted corn.
_pinolillo_--Drink made from toasted corn and cocoa.
_pulperia_--Small, local store.
_rosquillas_--Dish prepared from corn and cheese.
_tamales_--Meat-filled corn dumpling.
_tortillas_--Corn patties.


NICARAGUA: THE LAND OF SANDINO
by Thomas W. Walker
second edition, revised and updated
Boulder and London: Westview Press
1986
Pg. 78:  Another delightful aspect of Nicaraguan culture is the cuisine.
Again, there are elements of both the universal and the particular.  Like
Mexicans and other Central Americans, Nicaraguans eat corn in the form of
_tortillas_.  _Tortillas_ very in size, color, and thickness from country to country.  In
Nicaragua they are large, thin, and made of finely milled white corn.  They
are often used as a edible utensil in which to wrap barbecued meat, beans, or
whatever one happens to be eating.  Another absolutely essential item in
Nicaraguan cookery is beans.  As elsewhere in Latin America--since most people
cannot afford the regular consumption of animal protein--beans serve as the main
source of protein.  The small red bean to which Nicaraguans are particularly
addicted is refried with rice to produce a delicious dish called _gallo pinto_
(spotted rooster)--a favorite breakfast food of people of all classes.  Like
many other Latin Americans, _nicas_ also enjoy _tamales_.  Their _nacatamal_,
however, has its own particular character.  Wrapped in a pungent leaf from a
banana-like plant rather than a corn husk, it consists of corn _masa_ (dough),
rice, tomatoes, potatoes, chili, cassava root, and often a small piece of meat.
Another very typical Nicaraguan dish is _vaho_, which is prepared by slowly
steaming salted meat and various vegetables in layers over the same banana-like
leaves in a large covered container.  In general, Nicaraguan cuisine is well
worth trying.  Though usually tastefully seasoned, it is seldom hot.  For
lovers of "hot stuff," however, a bottle or bowl of fine, lip-mummifying _salsa de
chile_ (chili sauce) is seldom very far away.
   No discussion of food would be complete without some mention of drink.
The favorite nonalcoholic beverage in Nicaragua is coffee--the best (very good,
indeed) coming from the high country around Matagalpa.  Like othe Latin
Americans, Nicaraguans who can afford it drink their coffee 50-50, with hot milk, at
breakfast and black with sugar during the rest of the day.  Other typical
sweet drinks are made from toasted cacao and green or toasted corn.  In the field
of alcoholic beverages Nicaragua excels.  The typical lightly alcoholic
drinks are beer and the more traditional and indigenous _chicha_, made from (Pg.
79--ed.) fermented corn mash.  The favorite hard liquor is rum, of which
Nicaragua has one of Latin America's very best, _Flor de Cana_ (Flower of the Cane).


NICARAGUA: PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE
by Peter F. Stout
Philadelphia: John E. Potter
1859

Pg. 131:  The standard, I may add the national dishes, are tortillas or
corn-cakes, and frijoles or beans. (...)  Frijoles are beans of a different flavor
and appearance from those of our latitude.  They are small, and in color
ranging from white to black.  Tortillas, frijoles, and hard-boiled eggs (Pg.
132--ed.) comprise the Bill of Fare of every Nicaraguan posada;...
(No "tamales"--ed.)

Pg. 132:  The air was cool, the road level, the sun had not yet risen, and it
was a delightful beginning to a day which we knew full well would be a
"scorcher."
(OED has 1874 for "scorcher"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  The pine-apples, particularly, are very luscious, the nisperos
remarkably fine, and the oranges sweet and cheap.
(The December 2003 revised OED has "nispero" from 1858, then 1874--ed.)


NICARAGUA:
ITS PEOPLE, SCENERY, MONUMENTS, RESOURCES, CONDITION, AND PROPOSED CANAL;...
by E. G. Spuier
a revised edition
New York: Harper & Brothers
1860
First AMS edition published in 1973

Pg. 51:  The boats used upon the river for carrying freight and passengers
are exaggerated canoes, called _bongos_.

Pg. 51:  These boats have a small space near the stern, called the "_chopa_,"
covered with a board roof, a thatch of palm leaves, or with hides, which is
assigned to the passengers.

Pg. 64:  Every bongo, on leaving the interior, takes on board a large number
of plantains, not yet fully ripe, and which are therefore called _verdes_.
These are detached from the stalk, "corded up" in the bow of the boat, and
constitute the principal reliance of the men.  A few, that are nearly or quite
ripe, called _maduras_, are also taken on board for immediate use.  Besides these,
there is a box of jerked beef, or what the Americans ironically call _yard
beef_,--i. e. beef cut in long strips and dried in the sun.  Some bottles of
_manteca_ (lard), or a quantity of kidney fat and a bag of rice are added, and
then the substantial supplies for the voyage are complete.  The cookery is very
simple.  Stakes are driven in the ground to support the kettle, in which is
first put a portion of fat, next a layer of _platanos verdes_ from which the
skin has been stripped, then a layer of beef cut in small pieces, a calabash of
rice, some salt, and so on until the kettle is filled.  Water is poured over
all, and the whole is thoroughly boiled.  While this is going on, the men amuse
themselves with roasting bits of meat on the ends of pointed sticks.

Pg. 65:  When the mess in the kettle is cooked, each one fills his calabash,
and with his fingers or a cocoa-nut spoon disposes of it at his leisure.  As
the "yard beef" has always a most suspicious odor, I could bring myself to
taste the contents of the kettle but once.  I must do the marineros the justice to
say that it was not an unsavory dish.  It is always arranged to have half a
kettle full of the compound over, to which the men help themselves at their
pleasure.
   Besides these common stores, every sailor has a private stock, consisting,
generally, of a bag of _tiste_, (parched corn, ground with cacao and sugar,)
which is mixed with water, making a nourishing and most delicious beverage.
He has also a few cakes oif _chancaca_, or, as he calls it, _dulce_, i. e.,
unrefined sugar, which he eats in its raw state.

Pg. 92:  We were now, for the first time, introduced to the eternal
_tortilla_ and the omnipresent _frijoles_, to say nothing of the endless variety of
_dulces_ (sweetmeats), for which all Spanish America is famous.  We commenced
with beef, culminated over chicken, and finished with oranges, bananas, coffee,
and cigars; with a pleasant stomachic conviction that goo dinners were not
incompatible with cane-huts, brooding hens in the corners, and amative pigeons
under the caves!
(No tamales?--ed.)

Pg. 129:  The entire dress was often pure white, but generally the skirt, or
_nagua_, was of some flowered stuff, in which case the _guipil_ (_anglice_,
vandyke) was white, heavily trimmed with lace.

Pg. 134:  We were nevertheless received with the greatest civility by the
mayordomo, who insisted that we were hot and thirsty, and wanted "_algo fresco_,"
and incontinently despatched a boy to get some fresh cocoa-nuts, the milk of
which, when the nut is not too much matured, is transparent as water, and
makes a cool and delightful beverage,--especially when a drop of brandy is mixed
in "to take off the edge," and prevent fevers!

Pg. 190:  Oranges, plantains, maranons, jocotes, nisperos, mamays, and tall
palms, with their variously-colored fruits blushing brown or golden among the
leaves, and here and there a low calabash tree, with its green globes strung on
every limb, all clustering otgether, literally embowered the cane huts of the
simple-minded and industrious inhabitants.

Pg. 191:  Beneath some large trees upon one side of the plaza, we descried
our carts and their escort, taking what at home would be called "a nooning."
("At home"=U.S.  "Nooning" for revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 191:  The officer in command, in anticipation of our arrival, had
prepared two or three jars of "algo fresco," something fresh, delightfully compounded
of water, the juice of the cocoa-nut, and of the acidulous maranon,--a
delicious and refreshing beverage, to which we paid our respects in protracted
draughts, not forgetting "_mil gracias_," and sundry _medios_ to a plump, laughing
Indian girl who dispensed it, in snowy calabashes, to the thirsty strangers.

Pg. 256:  There is a delicious kind of _liqueur_ made from the Muscatel
grape, called "Italia," or "Pscio," which is brought from Peru.

Pg. 256:  In their food, the Nicaraguans are also exceedingly simple.
Tortillas and frijoles are the standard dishes.

Pg. 257:  The man who cannot "go" the _frijoles_ had better keep away from
Central America.  For the weary traveller, in soliciting the bill of fare at the
Indian hut where, four (Pg. 258--ed.) times out of five, he is obliged to
stop for the night, has generally this brief catalogue, "_hay tortillas,
frijoles, frijolitos, frijolitos fritos y huevos_," --"tortillas, beans, little beans,
little baked beans, and eggs!"
(Where are my nacatamales?--ed.)

Pg. 250:  Tea is only drunk by foreigners, and by them to a very limited
extent.  It is not to be found therefore in any of the shops.  A cup of chocolate,
or more frequently a cup of _tiste_ (parched corn ground with chocolate and
sugar and mixed with water), passed unceremoniously in the evening, supplies
its place, and is not an unacceptable substitute.  It should be mentioned,
however, that large quantities of "dulces," literally "sweets" or sweetmeats are
eaten between meals, especially by the women.  The Spanish taste for "dulces"
long ago passed into a proverb, but it rather surpasses itself in Nicaragua.
The venders of "dulces," generally bright Indian girls, gaily dressed, and
bearing a tray, covered with the purest white napkins, and temptingly spread, upon
their heads, pass daily from house to house; and it is sometimes difficult,
and always ungallant to refuse purchasing something, however, trifling, from
their stock.  The "mil gracious Senor!" in the silverest of voices, is always
woth the money, and swo one gets the "dulces" gratis.

Pg. 272:  They also make drinking vessels from the calabash; the largest
varieties are called "_guacals_," or "_aguacals_," and the smaller ones, made from
the long or pear-shaped calabash, "_jicaras_."  These last are often
tastefully carved ipon their exteriors, and are generalloy used instead of tumblers.
It is indispensable that "_tiste_" should be served in "jicaras," and (Pg.
273--ed.) amongst the people at large they are also used for coffee and
chocolate.  But as their bottoms are round, little carved stands are made to receive
them.  The Indians near the city of Nicaragua make similar cups from a variety
of cocoa-nut perculiar to that vicinity, which are celebrated throughout their
country for their beauty of shape and ornament.
(OED has 1859, then 1892 for "jicara"--ed.)

Pg. 583:  From the roof depended quantitites of _plantains_, _maduras_ and
_verdes_, intermixed with festoons of _tasajo_ or hung-beef.

Pg. 615:  Dr. Drivon, who has recently returned from California, in high
disgust, was established at the Dona Antonia's, but a square distant; and as he
had often praised the oysters found in the Bay of Fonseca, I hinted to him,
before we had fairly got ashore, that I was ready to pass judgment on them.
Fortunately, the Indians had brought in a fresh supply that morning, and he sent
round a sack-full, which were served for breakfast.  They were small, compact,
and salt, and we ate them with the utmost relish.  All hands concurred in
saying that they were quite equal to the best "New -Haveners," and the value of the
Gulf of Fonseca became straightway doubled in our eyes.
("New-Haveners?"  They're edible?--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 22 00:54:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:54:42 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040321185132.02f07680@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
>myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
>"cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....
>
>The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
>"cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
>don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.
>
>I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>(cf "poppycock").

which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
"papekak", soft dung

larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 22 01:23:32 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:23:32 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>>
>>I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>>(cf "poppycock").
>
>which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
>"papekak", soft dung
>
Oops, I should have checked before sending.  The above was from
memory, and while the sources I just checked confirm the "kak"
('dung') half, the "pape" should have been "pappe" (the Middle Dutch
was "pappekak") and it's not certain whether it really comes from a
word meaning "soft".  AHD4 gives Lat. "pappa" 'food' as one
possibility (yum!) and leaves it open as to whether there might be
others.  But the "kak" part seems firm.    As it were.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 22 03:18:00 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:18:00 -0500
Subject: Lobengulous
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Apparently Lobengula was quite fat, at least in his later years. Here is a
book chapter (from 1900 or so) which mentions this.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/henschap2.htm

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 06:00:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:00:50 EST
Subject: Reposado (1990); Cotija (1966); Gremolata (1977)
Message-ID: 

REPOSADOS

REPOSADO--29,000 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits
REPOSADOS--2,770 Google hits, 92 Google Groups hits

   "Reposado" is not in the OED ("miserable on food AND DRINK").  John
Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) has a "tequila" entry, but
no mention of it, either...I'm away from ProQuest right now.
   I had a late dinner/breakfast at Chevy's on 42nd Street (opposite the Port
Authority, when I leave on a bus in two hours).  Chevy's is "Fresh Mex."
Neither "Tex-Mex" nor "Cal-Mex" is in the LOS ANGELES TIMES through January 1,
1960.
   The Chevy's menu has "blancos" and "anejos" and "reposados"--"These are
'rested' tequila, aged from 2 to 9 months for a smoother taste."


(TRADEMARKS)(There are 21--ed.)
Word Mark   GRAN CENTENARIO REPOSADO TEQUILA 100% AGAVE-AZUL HECHO EN MEXICO

Translations    "GRAN CENTENARIO" may be translated into English as "grand
centennial". "REPOSADO" may be translated into English as "settled". "HECHO EN
MEXICO" may be translated into English as "made in Mexico". "AGAVE AZUL" may be
translated into English as "blue agave".
Goods and Services  IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: Alcoholic beverages, namely,
tequilaIC 042. US 100 101. G & S: Restaurant services
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  020325 200306 261120 261121
Serial Number   75383454
Filing Date November 3, 1997
Current Filing Basis    1B
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition    May 2, 2000
Owner   (APPLICANT) Tequila Cuervo La Rojena, S.A. de C.V. CORPORATION MEXICO
Circunvalacion Sur #44A Zapopan Jalisco, Codigo 45070 MEXICO
Attorney of Record  LAWRENCE E ABELMAN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA",
"AGAVE", and "HECHO IN MEXICO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   TEQUILA EL TEQUILENO ESPECIAL REPOSADO
Translations    The word "TEQUILENO" may be translated as "a native born
person of Tequila, Mexico". The term "ESPECIAL" may be translated as "special",
and the term "REPOSADO" as "aged".
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: tequila
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  200310
Serial Number   74643685
Filing Date March 9, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1B
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition    April 16, 1996
Owner   (APPLICANT) JORGE SALLES CUERVO Y SUCESORES S.A. DE C.V. CORPORATION
MEXICO LEANDRO VALLE No. 991 GUADALAJARA, JALISCO MEXICO
Attorney of Record  JOHN CLARKE HOLMAN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA",
"ESPECIAL" and "REPOSADO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark The lining is a feature of the mark and does not indicate
color.
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date    July 10, 1999

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   REPOSADA TEQUILA CORRALEJO MIGUEL HIDALGO
Translations    The English translation of REPOSADO is RESTED.
Goods and Services  IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: Tequila. FIRST USE: 19961102.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19971010
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  180103 190903 200310
Serial Number   75391761
Filing Date November 17, 1997
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    August 22, 2000
Registration Number 2403105
Registration Date   November 14, 2000
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Moreno, Leonardo Rodriguez INDIVIDUAL MEXICO Arboleada
de la Hacienda, #42 Col Arboleadas Atizapan de Zaragoza Estado de Mexico MEXICO

Attorney of Record  JEFFREY A DRACUP
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA" and
"REPOSADO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark The mark consists of two labels. One small label,
appearing on the neck of the bottle, is lined to indicate illegal material consisting
of a gold emblem appearing between "Tequila" and "Corralejo". The large
label, appearing in the middle of the bottle, consists of the wording "REPOSADO,
TEQUILA CORRALEJO", the signature of "MIGUEL HIDALGO" and a horse and carriage
design. The shape of the bottle is not claimed as part of the mark and appears
in dotted lines. It is used to show the positioning of the mark.
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Other Data  The name "MIGUEL HIDALGO" does not identify a living individual.

Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Good Reposados from Nogales, Mexico!
There's a one liter / person limit going over the border, by the
way. Do you mean duty free limit? I could have sworn the limit ...
alt.tequilla - Nov 24, 1997 by Jesse Sands - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Cuervo
Jose Cuervo tequila is the best!I used to think the same thing, but I have
waked up to real blue agave tequila, Herradura Gold and other reposados! ...
alt.tequilla - Apr 22, 1996 by Wayne Nelson - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Dynamite Margarita
... Although I do really like the Cuervo Reposado for shots -- makes them
almost
bearable (but then that's not the intent in the first place, is it?)! Hey!
...
rec.food.drink - Aug 5, 1992 by Dane Manes - View Thread (8 articles)

Re: Tequilas en Jap'on
#>El mar, 23 Jun 1992 19:32:03 CDT mi tocayo escribe: #> > # El tequila
Herradura reposado no es difi'cil #> >de encontrar en Chicago. ...
soc.culture.mexican - Jun 25, 1992 by Tena-Colunga - View Thread (13 articles)

Re: What are the three grades of Herradura Tequila?
... Toads. They also make cheap stuff.) Sauza Hornitos Reposado (I think
that that means "Sleeping Horny Toad") Very Good Tequila. Almost ...
rec.food.drink - Sep 27, 1990 by Robert W. Lesnick - View Thread (5 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COTIJA

COTIJA--11,800 Google hits, 277 Google Groups hits

   This Mexican cheese was served at Chevy's.  The OED...well, it doesn't
have it.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Good Things In Peppers (was Re: Worm in my Habanero Peppers)
... I mixed some cotija cheese (a salty, somewhat feta-like cheese from
Mexico,
less sour than feta but saltier) with garlic, olive oil, cumin and thyme. ...

rec.food.cooking - Aug 13, 1993 by Scott Fisher - View Thread (6 articles

)Re: Carniceria terms
... molleja de pollo -- ?? of chicken queso Cotija -- I'm wagering this
is a place-name for a kind of cheese, but am unsure. chamorro ...
rec.food.cooking - Aug 5, 1992 by David Adams - View Thread (3 articles


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark    COTIJA
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: cheese. FIRST USE:
19681231. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681231
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74684243
Filing Date June 5, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    November 19, 1996
Registration Number 2039780
Registration Date   February 25, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) COTIJA CHEESE COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 15130
Nelson Avenue City of Industry CALIFORNIA 91744
Attorney of Record  Donald M. Cislo
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date   November 29, 2003

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   COTIJA ANEJO
Translations    The English translation of "ANEJO" is "old".
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: cheese. FIRST USE:
19681231. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681231
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74684238
Filing Date June 5, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A

Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    January 28, 1997
Registration Number 2053939
Registration Date   April 22, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) COTIJA CHEESE COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 15130
Nelson Avenue City of Industry CALIFORNIA 91744
Attorney of Record  Donald M. Cislo
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date   January 24, 2004


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/15/1985
...it it The two types of CHEESE involved are COTIJA and queso fresco, both
soft CHEESEs.....64 104 69 85 64 74 52 90 60 Nation Deadly CHEESE plant scoured
LOS ANGELES (AP.....or raw milk contaminated a Mexican-style CHEESE linked to
29 deaths, and they are.....off icials joined forces Friday to get CHEESE
made by Jalisco Mexican Products Inc..
Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1985  472 k

Coshocton Tribune - 4/7/1966
...vermicelli (thin spaghetti', and oueso de COTIJA. a dried grating CHEESE
that Sra. van.....different milk used in manufacturing ter. CHEESE, and other
dairy prcKJucls is S3. 50.....substantially above market prices. No CHEESE has
been acquired or distributed for.....it is served without embellishment) with
CHEESE and chopped onion, and vegetables and..
Coshocton, Ohio Thursday, April 07, 1966  637 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/15/1985
...contamination was found in samples of COTIJA and queso fresco CHEESE
manufactured.....JUSE 15, 1985 28 deaths linked to rotten CHEESE By L1LA UTTLEJOHN
Associated Press.....linked two varieties of one manufacturer's CHEESE to more
than 80 illnesses that.....A statewide recall was ordered and the CHEESE
factory closed voluntarily Bacterial..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 15, 1985  461 k

Waukesha Freeman - 2/15/2003
...cheddar, salsa gouda, Hispanic CHEESEs like COTIJA and flavored goat
CHEESE as well.....more complex flavors, are popular, as are CHEESE blends,
washed-rind CHEESE, Hispanic.....southern breezes, Boyce said. Smoked-salmon CHEESE
comes from the Village CHEESE Co. in.....Inc. With ingredients blended in
during the CHEESE-making process, flavored CHEESE is one..
Waukesha, Wisconsin Saturday, February 15, 2003  517 k

Modesto Bee - 1/22/2003
...diced 1Vz teaspoons salt Vt cup grated COTIJA Vz cup grated manchego Vz
cup grated.....Vz cup carrot, grated cup Monterey jack CHEESE, grated Vt cup
fresh parsley, finely.....onions, sour cream and shredded Cheddar CHEESE.
National Cattleman's Beef Association.....BLACK-BEAN AND CHEESE TACOS 2 cups dried
black beans..
Modesto, California Wednesday, January 22, 2003  642 k

Times Recorder - 4/5/1966
...tomato broths vermicelli (thin and queso de COTIJA. a dried grating CHEESE
that Sra. van.....thick amp; cup crumbled American blue CHEESE (about 3
ounces) U cup Parmesan CHEESE.....it is served without embellishment with CHEESE
and chopped onion, and vegetables and.....is the subtly sharp flavor of American
blue CHEESE. VERSATILE CASSEROLE I package frozen..
Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, April 05, 1966  729 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GREMOLATA

GREMOLATA--11,500 Google hits, 289 Google Groups hits

This just arrived:
   April 2004, GOURMET, pg. 189:
CARROTS WITH GREMOLATA
A classic Italian topping, _gremolata_ is usually sprinkled over osso buco.

   The OED has...well, it doesn't have "gremolata."
   So I'm at the accountant last weekend with my sister, and I say, why don't
I just quit doing parking tickets 10 hours a day every day in a room with no
air, why don't I do an online dictionary of food and drink, maybe work more
for free for OED and the ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK.  I know it's
kind of a stretch, given that my work has never been mentioned in a single food
or drink article, not even about the "hot dog" that I did nine years ago, but
then again I've never been in NEW YORK or THE NEW YORKER or TIME OUT NEW YORK
or on tv or on the radio and I did lots of stuff for New York City, and I
can't even give "Windy City" to the Chicago Historical Society for free for ten
years now and still counting, and you try not to think about these things
because none of it makes sense...


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Technique Request: Consistency of Risotto
... herbs. A gremolata is marvelous if you're doing osso buco too. (Gremolata
:
minced garlic, grated lemon zest, chopped Italian parsley. ...
rec.food.cooking - Jul 3, 1990 by Scott Fisher - View Thread (3 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mountain Democrat - 8/27/1991
...and delicious lowfat recipes PASTA WITH GREMOLATA GREMOLATA is a
combination of..
Placerville, California Tuesday, August 27, 1991  575 k

Gleaner - 4/25/2002
...egg and cheese dishes, soups, sauces. is GREMOLATA is a garnish of grated
lemon rind..
Kingston, Kingston Thursday, April 25, 2002  535 k

Daily News - 1/15/2003
...pork which she garnishes with a mustard GREMOLATA. Six desserts,
including..
Los Angeles, California Wednesday, January 15, 2003  249 k

Lethbridge Herald - 5/9/1977
...out osso bucco (braised veal shanks) with GREMOLATA. Many viewers .prefer
to watch..
Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, May 09, 1977  654 k

Frederick Post - 10/13/1993
...may be thickened, if desired.) Top with GREMOLATA (minced parsley, minced
garlic and..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, October 13, 1993  700 k


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Mon Mar 22 11:17:30 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:17:30 +0000
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, March 21, 2004 7:54 pm -0500 Laurence Horn
 wrote:

(someone elsewrote)
>
>> There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
>> myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
>> "cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....
>>
>> The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
>> "cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
>> don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.
>>
>> I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>> (cf "poppycock").
>
> which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
> "papekak", soft dung


And since one also hears 'talking cack', this still looks to me like it's
'cack' imported as 'cock' into singapore english (feces not penes).

But, oh well, Ron doesn't agree...

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 22 16:36:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:36:55 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

It's been common for what, over a decade? But it's not in OED or M-W
Online: "101" after the name of a topic, meaning 'the basic information
about..., introduction to...', as in many colleges' course catalogs.

 http://www.jewfaq.org/
 Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of
Judaism,

 http://www.asp101.com/
 The place ASP developers GO!

 http://www.internet101.org/
 to learn about the Internet and how it works

 http://www.islam101.com/
 Islam 101 is an educational site on Islam, its way of life,
civilization and culture

 Mortgage101.com Answers to Your Mortgage Questions

 Toiletology 101: Free Toilet Repair Course

 CGI Programming 101 - Learn CGI Today!

 Musicals101.com - The Cyber Encyclopedia of Musicals

Not surprisingly, Google has a lot of hits from computer-related sites
and sites with '101' in their names. The above are from the first 20 of
"about 18,700,000" hits.

I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar 22 16:41:01 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:41:01 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 11:36:55AM -0500, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
> I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

I'm pretty sure it's in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary,
as I remember working on this entry whilst I was there.

We have a draft entry for OED that should appear in the next one
or two updates (whenever we get to "ON-"); I'm not in the office now
but I think our first quote was from the 1940s or something like
that.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Mar 22 17:51:33 2004
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:51:33 -0600
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

Here is an interesting entry FWIW from _The User's Webster Dictionary,_ 2000
(reviewed in DICTIONARIES 2003). It is entered between "one-off" and
"onerous":

101 (wun.oh.WUN) _comb.form._: elementary level in a subject: _You start the
program with Rocket Science 101; The brash new recruit had skipped Modesty
101._

BTW, UWD's first printing (available free on our website) has been sold out.
Next one awaited this year.

Thomas M. Paikeday
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A. Mandel" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: 101


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      101
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> It's been common for what, over a decade? But it's not in OED or M-W
> Online: "101" after the name of a topic, meaning 'the basic information
> about..., introduction to...', as in many colleges' course catalogs.
>
>  http://www.jewfaq.org/
>  Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of
> Judaism,
>
>  http://www.asp101.com/
>  The place ASP developers GO!
>
>  http://www.internet101.org/
>  to learn about the Internet and how it works
>
>  http://www.islam101.com/
>  Islam 101 is an educational site on Islam, its way of life,
> civilization and culture
>
>  Mortgage101.com Answers to Your Mortgage Questions
>
>  Toiletology 101: Free Toilet Repair Course
>
>  CGI Programming 101 - Learn CGI Today!
>
>  Musicals101.com - The Cyber Encyclopedia of Musicals
>
> Not surprisingly, Google has a lot of hits from computer-related sites
> and sites with '101' in their names. The above are from the first 20 of
> "about 18,700,000" hits.
>
> I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Mar 22 18:27:53 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:27:53 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

Mandel writes:
>
>I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
>was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

>From The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2, Winter 1999):
101, adj. {m}  elementary; basic.  Standard (used in informal contexts
dealing especially with social issues; frequency?)

Here’s a course for any lawyer who wants to originate business: Friendship
101.  The syllabus might read: “How to make friends and deepen
friendships, listen well, support others and help them feel comfortable in
your presence.”  Sheila Neilson, “Try Adding Civility, Kindness to Law
School Curriculum,” Illinois Legal Times (Nexis), June 1998, p 7

Two books that take this fresh approach are The Strang Cookbook for Cancer
Prevention—get past the name—and Prevention’s Health Guaranteed Cookbook.
The Prevention book, a spinoff of Prevention magazine, is like “Nutrition
101,” says editor David Joachim. “We tried to keep the science easy to
understand.”  Kim Pierce, “When good health means great taste,” The Dallas
Morning News (Nexis), May 20, 1998, p 1F

Hats off to “rediscovering Econ 101” (Editorial, Dec. 14).  Businessmen do
not seem to recognize the relative elasticity of demand for consumer
durables.  Peter B. Dowling [Springfield, Mass.], “Readers Report: More or
Less,” Business Week (Nexis), Jan. 20, 1975, p 8

Earlier this year, the big media companies launched a new product that
they were enormously excited about—the Monica Lewinsky story—only to run
into a lack of enthusiasm from customers.  John Cassidy, “The Political
Scene: Monicanomics 101,” The New Yorker, Sept. 21, 1998, p73

1975 (but presumed to be earlier).  Semantic shift (specialization): from
101, the number for a college course which is on the most basic level,
such as Psychology 101.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION [quarterly dictionary]


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 21:00:22 2004
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:22 EST
Subject: ou'doors
Message-ID: 

I was reminded when I was visiting my father in Central New York that the
rural pronunciation of "outdoors" up there is /aUdorz/, with equal stress on the
syllables and no trace of a /t/ or glottal stop.   My grandfather also used
"outdoor" for the adv.--don't know if it's unique to that region or not.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Mar 22 21:52:38 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:52:38 -0500
Subject: ou'doors
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I remember a grammar school teacher with a
strong French-Canadian accent (she was from a francophone part
of Maine) who pronounced "hot dog" without the "t," and with a
stress that was either even on both words or possibly even a little
stronger on the second word.  (It sounded something like
"hawDAWG.")  Is it possible that the pronunciation of English
words in places not far from Quebec could have been influenced by
French?  Just an amateur's wild guess here.

Joanne

On 22 Mar 2004, at 16:00, Dale Coye wrote:

> I was reminded when I was visiting my father in Central New York that the
> rural pronunciation of "outdoors" up there is /aUdorz/, with equal stress on the
> syllables and no trace of a /t/ or glottal stop.   My grandfather also used
> "outdoor" for the adv.--don't know if it's unique to that region or not.
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 04:50:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:50:32 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached (1943); Chicken head (1889); Reposado;
 Gremolata
Message-ID: 

   Almost forgot something today.

---------------------------------------------------------------
LOSE/FORGET YOUR HEAD IF IT WASN'T ATTACHED

HEAD + WASN'T ATTACHED--2,940 Google hits, 775 Google Groups hits

   Not in OED or HDAS?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Zanesville Signal - 7/11/1943
...Darling, 1 think you'd lose your HEAD if it WASN'T ATTACHED to you." When Nan had learned.....an odd glove? It must still be there." It WASN'T. It took Joe Norton another six to.....A ring suggested the jeweler. Joe shook his HEAD. "Not even a he answered, gloomily, and.....taxicab I was taking off my gloves, and I WASN'T Oh, Joe took it like a man like a man..
Zanesville, Ohio   Sunday, July 11, 1943  808 k

Post Crescent - 7/14/1974
...for when you were a child? "If your HEAD WASN'T ATTACHED, you'd forget it. Now, at.....cancerous. The job of these drugs is to HEAD off the virus before it can convert the..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Sunday, July 14, 1974  222 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 1/31/1957
...garden wall was grumbling. "If your HEAD WASN'T ATTACHED to your shoulders, you'd be.....25. Down. ingstreet 27. Music note 28. HEAD (slang) 29. tor CO.Tiles 33. Sacred bull..
Holland, Michigan   Thursday, January 31, 1957  1095 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
RUNNING AROUND LIKE A CHICKEN WITH ITS HEAD CUT OFF

LIKE A CHICKEN + HEAD CUT OFF--6,580 Google hits, 4,290 Google Groups hits

   Another heady Americanism.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   HE WAS HANGED.; REMARKABLE EXPERIENCE OF A LOS ANGELES MAN. Paralyzed, He Fell on the RailRoad Track in the San Fernando Tunnel and Was Pulled Off the Track in the Nick of Time. OUT OF THE JAWS OF DEATH. AS IF PACKED IN ICE. AN AWFUL ESCAPE. WILLING TO BE HANGED. HOW IT FELT. A QUEER SENSATION.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 15, 1889. p. 4 (1 page):
   In a few seconds I came to, and saw my feet jumping about like a chicken does with its head cut off.

   MAHONE'S FRAIL HOPES; TRYING TO BUY UP THE ELECTION JUDGES.USE FOR THE MONEY SUPPLIED FROM OUTSIDE--THE RIDICULOUS TALK OF A DUAL GOVERNMENT.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1889. p. 1 (1 page):
   "He is floundering about like a chicken with his head cut off."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lincoln Star - 7/9/1931
...wAs running About LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. MAnAger Confident Now. The.....in JAcobs is due to the fAct thAt Joe, LIKE MAx himself, now believes Schmeling to.....nightcAp thAt very effectively covered his heAd, comprising 84 yArds of cloth And.....Y., And NormAn dimming of Toronto teed OFF todAy in the first 18 holes of the 72..
Lincoln, Nebraska   Thursday, July 09, 1931  874 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 12/24/1932
...the cAt rAn Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. The demented pussy cAt heAded.....he hAs held since 1926. Atterbury RemAins OFF GenerAl W. W. Atterbury, who fell from..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Saturday, December 24, 1932  917 k

New Oxford Item - 12/22/1932
...the cAt rAn Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. The demented pussy cAt heAded.....Burke wAs humble. He stood with bowed heAd And tried to shield his fAce from the..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania   Thursday, December 22, 1932  746 k

Sheboygan Press - 6/2/1926
...Ad Is LIKE A CHICKEN thAt's just got Its heAd CUT OFF it wiggles for A while And then.....whAt is the honest citizen to do? He would LIKE to vote for the mAn of his choice but.....cAught up And soon will go AheAd. A level heAd will cArry you Along even you do hAve.....Women Are so vAin. They get their hAir CUT Almost As often As men. Most of those..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin   Wednesday, June 02, 1926  641 k

Iowa City Daily Press - 2/1/1908
...Acted kind o' LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF till the boss got into the.....three 9 youne brood All bred; And ChinA 28 HeAd of 27 heAd ef" HAmphsire 1 HAmpshire.....boss's doin's. Yep. Lord thAr. gAng look LIKE we Are through with "em. Spendin' the.....rn1-1 w -'-.1. Dntr A OOfT' Boston. MAm tm. CUT Icon Bork on Skto CA., ViA suf rertng..
Iowa City, Iowa   Saturday, February 01, 1908  552 k

Broad Ax - 10/16/1897
...Lewis rushed Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF while he wAs rAllying the.....by A. F. Doremus. H. F. EvAns rushed Around LIKE A li in A ChinA store, And swore he.....And severAl were thrown out oi' the TheAter heAd formost by the sergeAnt-At-Arms becAuse.....some of them declAred thAt they intended to CUT And slAsh the single gold stAndArd ticket..
Salt Lake City, Utah   Saturday, October 16, 1897  439 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
REPOSADO (continued)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
GLASS ACT; The Taming of Tequila GLASS ACT
JAMES CONAWAY. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 1, 1988. p. 453 (2 pages)
Pg. 453:  The best tequila--called _reposado_--spends a few months in a large redwood tank that gives it a golden tinge and added taste complexity.  One notable _reposado_ tequila is Cuervo Especial--the bestselling "gold" tequila in this country, where it costs about $10 a bottle.

(FACTIVA)(There are 423 hits for "reposado" + "tequila")
LCBO recalls all tequila brands
109 words
12 August 1987
The Toronto Star
FINAL
A17
English
(Copyright The Toronto Star)

All brands of tequila sold in Ontario have been pulled from liquor store shelves after tests showed some bottles of each contained glass particles.

Jack Ackroyd, chairman of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario (LCBO), said new tests were ordered when it was learned all tequilas in Ontario come from the same source.

The tests found bits of glass in several bottles of Olmeca and Cuervo Especial Gold tequilas. Included in the recall is Hornitos Reposado. Tequila Sauza Silver was recalled last week, followed by Tequila Sauza Gold, when glass was discovered in some bottles. All bottles can be returned for full refunds.

---------------------------------------------------------------
GREMOLATA (continued)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1. A Winter Special
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 26, 1961. p. SM105 (1 page):
   As a final fillip before serving, the dish is sprinkled with _gremolata_, a traditional combination of chopped parsley, garlic and grated lemon peel.

   2. DINING OUT; Italian Delights
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1976. p. 352 (1 page)

  3. Article 6 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1976. p. 48 (1 page):
   Mince the remaining two cloves of garlic and combine with parsley and lemon peel.  SPrinkle the mixture, called gremolata, over the veal and serve immediately.

   4. Q&A
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1979. p. C9 (1 page):
Q.  I have a recipe for veal shanks Italian style that calls for gremolata.  Would you please tell me what this is and how I can obtain it?
A.  Gremolata, or gremolada, is a flavorful garnish used chiefly for ossobuco or baked veal shanks in Italy.  It consists of finely chopped garlic, persley and grated lemon grind.  This is generally added toward or at the end of cooking time.  It gives an excellent and characteristic zest to the dish.  If there are other uses for the blend, I am not aware of them.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 07:11:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:11:50 -0500
Subject: Noodle Bar (1960); Nabe & Shabu-Shabu (1963); Sam Sloan's epitaphs
Message-ID: 

   It was very cold today in New York City, and the sign in ONY Noodle Bar's window (6th Avenue, near the NYU subway; www.ony-usa.com) offering a hot "Ishikari nabe" (189 Google hits; not in OED) was very inviting.
   If you sit at the bar, don't let the "EMPLOYEE MUST WASH HAND" sign turn you off...The soup was great.  I was served by a Japanese woman.  When I left the place, she was standing outside, smoking.  "Thank you, sir!" she said.  I was a bit flustered, but glad that she didn't add "Come again soon!"

---------------------------------------------------------------
NOODLE BAR

NOODLE BAR--15,300 Google hits, 859 Google Groups hits
NOODLE SHOP--22,900 Google hits, 1,540 Google Groups hits

   OED revised the "noodle" entry for December 2003 and...there is no "noodle bar."   There's not even one entry for "noodle shop," either.
   Obviously, no OED editor saw the movie TAMPOPO.  Or has been to Japan.  Or has eaten Japanese food anywhere around the world?!


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Blade Runner question
In the scene at the noodle bar Gaff addresses Deckard in a strange sounding
language. What language is this? Why doesn't he use English? ...
alt.cult-movies - May 11, 1993 by Jason T Amdor - View Thread (40 articles)

Re: Good Japanese Noodle Place?
... thanks, =mike Actually, I haven't run across anything quite like Goemon in Cambridge,
MA, but Ikenohana in Cupertino (close to Apple) has a noodle bar for lunch ...
ba.food - Mar 3, 1993 by J.T. Teh - View Thread (5 articles)

Re: Japanese noodle house?
Seto Sushi on El Camino between Lawrence and Wolfe has a large selection
of noodle dishes altho they do not have a noodle bar per se.... ...
ba.food - Jan 19, 1993 by John Reece - View Thread (15 articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Student Shows Elder the korean Path; The overthrow of Syngman Rhee and present efforts to remake South Korea represent an illuminating case of the young teaching the old. Student Shows Elder the Path
BY ROBERT TRUMBULL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 19, 1960. p. SM8 (4 pages)
(Last page)  One thing of which Lee is sure is that the students, who have developed a loosely functioning liaison organization that meets informally in tea rooms and noodle bars, will take to the streets again if they feel that their elders are too slow in effecting reforms.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("noodle shop")
Fire Loss 1 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 21, 1901. p. 3 (1 page) :
   Five stores, a lodging-house and a noodle shop were burned.

---------------------------------------------------------------
NABE & SHABU-SHABU

NABE + JAPANESE--11,900 Google hits, 578 Google Groups hits

   OED revised "nabe" (just the entry meaning "neighborhood") for June 2003.  The Japanese "nabe" is not in the revised OED.
   THIS IS NOT GOOD!  I'M NOT EVEN TRYING HERE!  A lot of Japanese try to learn English, and they buy English dictionaries, and they look for a word like this...
   Miserable on food!


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Sushi from the Fugu Fish (puffer fish)
... Fugu is usually served as a sashimi or as a nabe. ... You're safer eating fugu in a Japanese
restaurant than you are eating wild mushrooms at an American restaurant ...
alt.drugs - Jun 29, 1989 by Mark Crispin - View Thread (12 articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   JAPAN'S SUKIYAKI CIRCUIT; Tasty Tips for Tourists On the Gourmet Trail In Tokyo Area Tempura Transformed Deep-Fried Dishes Bones and All Tokyo Bouillabaisse
By PETER ROBINSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1963. p. XXX38 (1 page):
   Somewhat more formal than the counter-places, but less so than the banquet-style restaurant, is the restaurant which served nabe-ryori ("pot-cooking" foods).  Sukiyaki belongs in this category, but is just one among many Japanese dishes which are cooked right on the table in front of the guest.
(...)  Similar to mizutaki in some respects is shaab-shaab, a dish which actually originated in Manchuria.  The main ingredient here is beef or mutton which has been sliced very thin.
(...)  Chanko-nabe is a rich stew based on fish, chicken or meat (it is up to the customer to choose which) with plentiful helpings of vegetables.

Menu's Imaginative, Cooking's Inspired
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 29, 1969. p. 16 (1 page):
   ...shabu-shabu, in which beef and vegetables are cooked in broth; nabe, another boiled dish with sea food and chicken; ozen, which is a complete Japanese dinner, and steak served on a hot platter.  The shabu-shabu is particularly tasty with two sauces, one of sesame and bean paste, another of soy and lemon.

East Meets West; Entertaining Japanese Guest Nabe To Serve Cooking Liquid
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1970. p. E1 (2 pages):
   Nabe (pronounced nah-beh) is the Japanese counterpart to the American homemaker's cook-at-the-table party dish.  A fondue-type dish composed of bite-size, crisp vegetables and meat or poultry or fish (_See EAST, E3, Col. 1_) cooked in a cook-pot or broth, this dish is very popular.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 2/2/1964
...called haiku. For instance, there's chanko NABE, a soupstew containing meat, fish and.....noon or dinner meal or snack between meals. JAPANESE Restaurant In Tokyo Features.....Press International NEW YORK (UPI) A new .JAPANESE restaurant here made a federal case.....and unfamiliar to most Westerners as is JAPANESE poetry..
Zanesville, Ohio   Sunday, February 02, 1964  674 k

Coshocton Tribune - 1/23/1964
...called haiku. For instance there's ohanko NABE, a soupstew containing meat, fish and.....and unfamiliar to most West eraers as is JAPANESE poetry.....on tempura ant sushi, the traditional JAPANESE Clinch dish. Susihi was popularized.....raw halibut flounder and porgy. Although JAPANESE cuisine contains various raw foods..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, January 23, 1964  659 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
OT: SAM SLOAN'S EPITAPHS

   Sam Sloan is a colorful chess character from my past.  He's been to 80 countries, more than even...Tyler Cowen.
   He posted today that he's on this web site:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1539
USCF candidate, taxi-driver, polygamist, gadfly – all these epitaphs fit one of the most colorful personalities in world chess. Sam Sloan has been jailed in Afghanistan, fought Pakistani kidnappers, had lunch with terrorist mastermind bin Laden, fled US courts who want access to his father's alleged $50 million fortune. And you thought chess players led dull lives?

(No, I didn't think this.  But this posting from beyond the grave has me worried--ed.)


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar 23 13:11:02 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:11:02 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation of the
first course in any subject but in my memory before for whatever reason all
too many colleges/universities designated beginning courses by adding the 10
as a prefix to 1 we used to call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1,
Chemistry 1, English 1, etc. The second courses in the subject would then be
entitled 2, 3, etc.

If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would love
to learn about it.

Page Stephens

PS. why not 1 as opposed to 101.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: 101


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Barnhart 
> Subject:      Re: 101
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Mandel writes:
> >
> >I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> >was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.
>
> From The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2, Winter 1999):
> 101, adj. {m}  elementary; basic.  Standard (used in informal contexts
> dealing especially with social issues; frequency?)
>
> Here's a course for any lawyer who wants to originate business: Friendship
> 101.  The syllabus might read: "How to make friends and deepen
> friendships, listen well, support others and help them feel comfortable in
> your presence."  Sheila Neilson, "Try Adding Civility, Kindness to Law
> School Curriculum," Illinois Legal Times (Nexis), June 1998, p 7
>
> Two books that take this fresh approach are The Strang Cookbook for Cancer
> Prevention-get past the name-and Prevention's Health Guaranteed Cookbook.
> The Prevention book, a spinoff of Prevention magazine, is like "Nutrition
> 101," says editor David Joachim. "We tried to keep the science easy to
> understand."  Kim Pierce, "When good health means great taste," The Dallas
> Morning News (Nexis), May 20, 1998, p 1F
>
> Hats off to "rediscovering Econ 101" (Editorial, Dec. 14).  Businessmen do
> not seem to recognize the relative elasticity of demand for consumer
> durables.  Peter B. Dowling [Springfield, Mass.], "Readers Report: More or
> Less," Business Week (Nexis), Jan. 20, 1975, p 8
>
> Earlier this year, the big media companies launched a new product that
> they were enormously excited about-the Monica Lewinsky story-only to run
> into a lack of enthusiasm from customers.  John Cassidy, "The Political
> Scene: Monicanomics 101," The New Yorker, Sept. 21, 1998, p73
>
> 1975 (but presumed to be earlier).  Semantic shift (specialization): from
> 101, the number for a college course which is on the most basic level,
> such as Psychology 101.
>
> Regards,
> David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
> The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION [quarterly dictionary]


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Mar 23 14:32:14 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:32:14 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
In-Reply-To: <200403230502.AAA16699@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

My version of this is "You'd lose your head if it wasn't screwed on".  I don't
know whether that's just my family, or a more general feature of British
English.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 14:53:34 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:53:34 -0500
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
In-Reply-To: <200403231311.AQS18324@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Mar 23 15:02:15 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:02:15 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

        At least some (most?) schools were doing this 30 years ago, and I suspect that it goes back quite a bit further.  It's an administrative convenience:  Courses in the 100s are for all students, 200s are for sophomores and higher, and so forth, the details of which probably vary from school to school.  As we have already heard, some schools have found a three-digit system inadequate and have moved on to four digits.  On the other hand, my school, Centre College, was so small that we needed just two digits, so the introductory economics course, for example, was Economics 11.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Page Stephens
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:11 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: 101


101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation of the
first course in any subject but in my memory before for whatever reason all
too many colleges/universities designated beginning courses by adding the 10
as a prefix to 1 we used to call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1,
Chemistry 1, English 1, etc. The second courses in the subject would then be
entitled 2, 3, etc.

If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would love
to learn about it.

Page Stephens

PS. why not 1 as opposed to 101.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 15:04:45 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:04:45 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
In-Reply-To: <1080052334.40604a6ed4a81@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:32 AM -0500 3/23/04, Damien Hall wrote:
>My version of this is "You'd lose your head if it wasn't screwed on".  I don't
>know whether that's just my family, or a more general feature of British
>English.
>
My mother (born/raised Troy, NY) used that version of it, so it's not
just British.

Larry Horn


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Mar 23 15:45:23 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:45:23 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B976C@PHEX01.stradley.com >
Message-ID: 

At 10:02 AM 3/23/2004 -0500, John Baker wrote:
>On the other hand, my school, Centre College, was so small that we needed
>just two digits, so the introductory economics course, for example, was
>Economics 11.


Me too. We didn't have such a numbering system at all really. Courses were
called by names not numbers. The only numbers I can think of were on the
English courses -- Literary Tradition I, II, III, and IV. Shortened to Lit.
Trad + number. (And EVERYONE had to take all four regardless of major). Our
beginning politics course (also required of everyone) was called Principles
of American Politics and so forth.



Kathleen E. Miller
The University of Dallas
Class of 1993


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 16:21:00 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:21:00 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: <200403231539.i2NFdaOG029053@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> Me too. We didn't have such a numbering system at all really. Courses were
> called by names not numbers. The only numbers I can think of were on the
> English courses -- Literary Tradition I, II, III, and IV. Shortened to Lit.
> Trad + number. (And EVERYONE had to take all four regardless of major). Our
> beginning politics course (also required of everyone) was called Principles
> of American Politics and so forth.

At my alma mater, an obscure technical school in Eastern Massachusetts
where even the buildings are known only by numbers, the course numbers
were all-numerical as well: 7.11, 7.16, etc., no words describing the
department.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Tue Mar 23 16:59:27 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:59:27 -0800
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
Message-ID: 

Geoff:

> Even stranger, I found when I arrived at Wayne State University that
> courses here had grown an additional digit, so that Freshman English is
> now 1010.  This change happened several years ago--recent enough
> that some of my colleagues still call courses by their three-digit names
> (so 2720 is still 272).  Since this changes the morphology
> considerably I have to stop and do arithmetic to figure out which course
> they are talking about.


> Geoff

That sounds like the "four digit" system a lot of colleges now use for
course numbering.  I know, 'cause I've sometimes had to look up(usually
through Google)the name of some professor whose courses are listed at
whatever college.  Still, this *is* a change from the "three digit" system
"they" used to use.  And presumably *that* is the source of the "101" you've
been discussing.
Anne G


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 23 17:15:19 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:15:19 -0800
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
In-Reply-To: <1f1.1bd78dd7.2d8ccdad@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 19, 2004, at 2:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ...suppose that speakers associate "That is so wack"
> ... with "wacked"
> and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational
> suffix as
> a rule for the cool...

having just noted a use of the slang noun "dip", with a related
adjective "dippy", i searched for clearly adjective uses of "dip" ("is
really dip", "how dip (of) a"), with no success.  but then i thought of
the very similar "ditz", and hit (small amounts of) paydirt:

... There is a substitute teacher today. Sean says that, she was the
sub a
  few times before and she is really ditz. We didn't do much in choir.
...
  www.nifty.org/nifty/gay/highschool/before-your-love/ before-your-love-2

... I was really ditz back than and my world revolved around looks,
money, and popularity.
  Buffy finished half smirking at herself for how flakey she used to be.
...
  www.slayerette.org/fanfic/ladyaira/fr2.html

----------

meanwhile, after the dick/prick episode, i thought i'd try "pussy", and
immediately turned up:

... Pussy can be used as a noun. As in "He is such a pussy.". Or as an
adjective. As
  in "That was a really pussy call.". It cannot, however be used as an
adverb. ...
  www.yale.edu/superfly/yrum0203.html

... the morning. But since I had tendinitits (or medial/radial
epicondylitis,
  depends who you ask) I did really pussy lifting. I only ...
  qcontrol.web1000.com/ - 45k - Mar 22, 2004

... came about after a drunken Brent DiCrescenzo and Ryan Schreiber
attended a Minnesota  Timberwolves preseason game and Brent noted "how
pussy and retarded" the ...   www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/
g/gloria-record/gloria-record.shtml - 24k - Mar 22, 2004

... alot of **** in his cds but when hes outside of the studio hes a
pussy with tons
  of body guards.i do think he was a gangsta but a really pussy
gansta.plus he ...
  boards.ign.com/Hip-Hop/b5113/54047877/?13

[and more.  this last one has both noun and adjective uses.]

and, *yes*, there's the abbreviated version "puss":

... STRAIGHT DIRTY DIRTY. WARNING: IF YOU HAVE REALLY PUSS SPEAKERS OR
YOU'RE SCARED TO BLOW OUT YOUR EXISTING SPEAKERS, TURN YOUR BASS DOWN!
BASS HEAVY TRACK. ...
  www.soundclick.com/bands/3/dantemacmusic.htm

... P ghehe jab jab at the aussies :) look in the NZIHA newsletters
youll see
  us on the team listing we have a webpage somewhere but its really
puss. ...
  forums.skylinesdownunder.co.nz/ archive/topic/929-1.html

... He just completely ruins that cd for me. The music is some great
straight up
  metal, but his voice is so puss, it doesnt match the music whatsoever.
...
  boards.1up.com/ zd/board/message?board.id=music&message.id=1039&page=3

[there are citations for "puss-ass" (as well as "pussy-ass") too, so
that's another possible source.]

and there's a variant "puss-whipped" of "pussy-whipped"

... This has nothing to do with being "puss-whipped". It's ingrained
into
  society that the best place for children is with their mothers. ...
  inthe00s.com/archive/inthe00s/1058383245.shtml

finally, to bring it all back to where this started, there's
"puss-whacked" as a variant of "puss-whipped":

... this is true you ought to be caught bottom line is he has not ever
had any control
  over you ive told him to control his bitch but he is so puss whacked
that he ...
  www.talkaboutsupport.com/group/alt.support.anxiety-panic/
messages/501682.html

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 17:17:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:17:20 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
Message-ID: 

101:  Maybe this designation is from the COBOL programming language that was used at the colleges at this time?

SCREWED ON:  It looks like this is earlier:

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Trenton Evening Times - 6/13/1908
...do belave ye'Q lOiflt yir HEAD If It wasn't SCREWED ON. yez use yir handkerchief or ytr.....ye. Show me yir tONgue. The Diike uhouk hlo HEAD. myke a mlstyke, he replied. 'It ain't.....hy Crawford as a tip Nora decides to 'go ON the stajr, ami thinking to get heraway.....as to what they would do how Nora would get ON kept Mallory and the old people keyed up..
Trenton, New Jersey   Saturday, June 13, 1908  751 k


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Mar 23 20:00:39 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:00:39 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
Message-ID: 

Folks:

I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:

--For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.   Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or even baseball. On down the line.
--I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.

The best that the OED can do is 1869, from Mark Twain, and the entry doesn't include a definition.  The Dictionary of American English had also cited the Twain, and another passage (from the late 1880s as I recall) that included a definition; this defining quotation is omitted by OED.  HDAS doesn't give this sense at all.  And I don't see any other sense of the word "English" in OED that could be used to explain the billiards sense.

I have tried searching the Brooklyn Eagle database, but it seems to be malfunctioning.  A combination of NYTimes and Amer Periodicals through Proquest showed that there were distinct national forms of billiards.
"Nearly all the prominent nations of the world have their national game; and at ony of the prominent rooms on Broadway a spectator may possible witness the American, French, English, Russian and Mexican games, all being played at the same moment.  Of course the first is the game pursued in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred. . . .  The fact cannot be disputed, that no game calls for more scientific ability, both in judgment and execution, that the "Three ball Carambole," or French game, and it is equally certain that the English "winning and losing" game is among those requiring the least skill."  NYTimes, December 27, 1858, p. 5
Nothing is said in detail about "the English "winning and losing" game" and the way it was played, so I don't know whether it particularly called for "putting English on the ball".

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Tue Mar 23 20:00:50 2004
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:00:50 -0600
Subject: "English" in billiards
In-Reply-To: <3598e723596a84.3596a843598e72@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

The week of March 21-27 is Spring Break.  Some of you off-campus, online students aren't aware why I'm missing.  I'll answer e-mails next week when I return from my wanderings.  Hope you have a pleasant week too.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 24 00:21:56 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:21:56 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:00 PM
Subject: "English" in billiards


> I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:
>
> --For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.
Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin
called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone
says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or
even baseball. On down the line.
> --I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.
> GAT

I have a wild speculation.  The slang word 'could' have come from the
English game of cricket.  The early bowler? could make that ball curve more
than a modern baseball major leaguer, no doubt, and  the spin they used
could have been dubbed "English."

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:26:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:26:40 EST
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

That'll Be the Day
Buddy Holly & The Crickets

Well, that'll be the day, when you say goodbye
Yes, that'll be the day, when you make me cry
You say you're gonna leave, you know it's a lie
'Cause that'll be the day when I die


   The Chicago Historical Society has my "Windy City" stuff for over two
weeks now and still no reply.  Only a few more days or weeks or years or decades,
I'm thinking, until I get the tiniest among of respect.
   That'll be the day.
   The famous Buddy Holly song is from 1957.  It's said that Holly took the
line from the John Ford-directed John Wayne film THE SEARCHERS (1956).  We'll
search a little further.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE..COM)
Troy Record - 10/12/1943
...Labor Union Local 20.53S. i "THAT'LL BE THE DAY Crossword Puzzle Cocr.
19U. Esso Inc.....THE bird's name "Bullet Proof." ORDER THE DAY Richmond, Va.
John Marshall, reporter on.....to your car that gets more important every DAY...
"EVERY CAR that still runs is an.....on Columbus. OTHEr j prominent Knights
will DAY short addresses. THEre will BE..
Troy, New York   Tuesday, October 12, 1943  877 k
Pg. 3, col. 1:  _Anything Can Happen--And Does_
Pg. 3, col. 6:  The group officers still officially frown on Rea's
anti-Luftwaffe campaign but there are a few side bets among them on whether he will yet
score a victory.
   "It's all for my own amusement," said the sergeant, untroubled by any
doubts himself, "and I'll keep at it until I do get one.
   "That'll be the day."

Council Bluffs Iowa Nonpareil - 4/16/1948
...instead of embalmed minnows. THAT'LL BE THE DAY When Glenn Ford relaxes
from Ills work in.....bomBErs. THE British method is suppiscd to BE very similar
to that used by THE air force.....a line with velght and hook on THE end. THE
Inc forms an arc BEhind THE ilano. THE.....ho bomBEr reels back THE line and
THE hose. THE hose autonatlcally fastens into THE..
Council Bluffs, Iowa   Friday, April 16, 1948  568 k

Zanesville Signal - 12/28/1945
...defeat, and which is found in a DAY-to-DAY history of THE war, once our
armed forces.....for past insults to newsmen. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Big scandal in
music row concerning a.....ceased, while THE Army message of THE same DAY to
General Short stated that THEy.....story of events leading up to that unhappy
DAY is unfolded. A most recent example was..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, December 28, 1945  963 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/12/1942
...of Kellogg's Corn Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till sfce tastes
that can't-BE.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And soon she'll BE
old enough to dig.....and sugar, really helps no sail through THE DAY. Aad
breakfast is always on tune sow that.....here owing to flying conditions. During
THE DAY officials inspected THE military centre..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Wednesday, August 12, 1942  949 k

Frederick Post - 9/12/1943
...him for mayor next year, THAT'LL BE THE DAY S. Billirigsley is.
disillusioned. His.....of THE Jewish War Veterans THE oTHEr DAY. National Commander
Julius Klein of.....married to a medico) expects an image any DAY. She was Tirana
in that MeeSatira.....holler, "Author, and mean him, THEn one DAY he met up
with a young songwrlter who..
Frederick, Maryland   Sunday, September 12, 1943  775 k
Pg. 4, col. 3 (Winchell on Broadway):
   Cong. Marcantonio intends "evening (Col. 4--ed.) things" with O'Dwyer by
running against him for mayor next year.  That'll be the day!

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 10/18/1945
...may BE had for THE asking .'THAT'LL BE THE DAY" .Meanwhile, in spite of
war-imposed.....m P. w 'n o s r. h e a ted en 5. S u n DAY morning, THE
PitLsfielri ChamBEr ofl.....BE paid for any period of time prior to THE date in which
THE additional information.....We're very proud of what we've got and you'll
see mliy with your first tankful of THE..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Thursday, October 18, 1945  448 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/13/1942
...of Kellogg's Com Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till site tastes
that can't-BE.....and sugar, really helps me sail through THE DAY. And breakfast
is always on time sow that.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And
soon shell BE old enough to dig into.....bad weaTHEr. This was special
GrandmoTHErs' DAY and THE program was given by THE children..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Thursday, August 13, 1942  952 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/12/1942
...of Kellogg's Corn Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till sfce tastes
that can't-BE.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And soon she'll BE
old enough to dig.....and sugar, really helps no sail through THE DAY. Aad
breakfast is always on tune sow that.....here owing to flying conditions. During
THE DAY officials inspected THE military centre..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Wednesday, August 12, 1942  949 k
Pg. 5, cols. 5-8 ad:
"GO ON!  Do something--I dare ya!  Oh, scared, eh!?"  Baby Lois' eager mind
discovers new wonders every day.  And soon she'll be old enough to dig into a
breakfast bowl of Kellogg's Corn Flakes.  That'll be the day!  Just wait till
she tastes that can't-be-matched _flavour_!  How is _your_ supply of Kellogg's?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:28:36 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:28:36 EST
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/23/2004 9:27:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> among of respect.
>

amount

Barry "too many parking tickets" Popik


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:42:26 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:42:26 -0500
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)


> That'll Be the Day
> Buddy Holly & The Crickets
>
> Well, that'll be the day, when you say goodbye
> Yes, that'll be the day, when you make me cry
> You say you're gonna leave, you know it's a lie
> 'Cause that'll be the day when I die
>
>    That'll be the day.
>    The famous Buddy Holly song is from 1957.  It's said that Holly took
the
> line from the John Ford-directed John Wayne film THE SEARCHERS (1956).
We'll
> search a little further.

Of course, the writer of that song perhaps DID take it from the movie.  Not
much to say that it wasn't.

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 24 02:43:56 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:43:56 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
In-Reply-To: <3598e723596a84.3596a843598e72@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

(1) The 'default' explanation -- given (e.g.) at various Web sites
(including Straight Dope and Morris) and in Hendrickson's book -- seems to
be that "English" (= "side-spin in billiards") < "body English" (= "body
language") < "English" (= "language"). This is not entirely implausible as
it stands. However, I don't immediately find "body English" before 1900. If
"body English" existed before 1869, this origin remains in contention.

(2) To me, the converse seems more natural anyway: "body English" (=
"side-spin notionally imparted by body motions") < "English" (= "side-spin
in billiards"). Then whence the billiards word?

(3) One might presume "English" to be a contraction of "English spin" or
so. Then presumably it would be a type of spin thought to be from England
or associated with English billiards or something English ... or maybe spin
in general would have been thought to be English in some way. If the basic
idea was "from England" then one would expect the term to have been absent
in England itself; and indeed I believe the term was originally American
and non-English ... FWIW.

(4) Here is one possibility:

http://www.snookergames.co.uk/history1.html

shows a piece of billiards history or folklore wherein the
inventor/popularizer of billiards spin departed England, to amaze and
fleece the players in Spain. If the story is true, his novel technique
might very naturally have been called "English", in Spain and presumably
later elsewhere. If this story isn't true, perhaps some similar story is.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 24 07:27:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:27:29 -0800
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
Message-ID: 

That's the title of one of Richard Lederer's syndicated columns on the
English language, which I came across on page 19 of the March 2004
Funny Times (a Cleveland, Ohio, compendium of recent humorous cartoons
and essays, with what now counts as a way-left tinge to its politics).
Yes, like Lederer's columns in general, it's supposed to be funny --
he's fond of puns and other kinds of word play -- but it's also
supposed to be instructive.  (Lederer is, after all, an English
professor.)

This one is a collection of writing errors, a vein that Lederer often
taps.  The fall into error is a brand of humor that tends to have a
nasty edge to it, a superior They Should Have Known Better tone when
directed (as in this case) towards professionals,  a sneering They Are
Ignorant Fools tone when aimed at ordinary folks, in particular
students, with their extraordinary word choices, erratic spellings, and
uncertain grasp of facts.  (Look, I'm a teacher, and have been for
forty years, and of course I sit around with other veterans and tell
amazing war stories, but these occasions are suffused by sadness, since
our students' failures are our collective failures too.)

I guess we're supposed to be shamed into learning some important lesson
from these bad examples, but it would be hard for even a compliant and
well-disposed reader to do much with what Lederer provides in this
column.

Worse still, Lederer is, whether we like it or not, a significant
public face of scholarship in English grammar.  This is one of the main
ways the literate (but non-linguist) world gets to see what we do.  Oi.

But on to the participles.  Or, I should say, "participles", since only
five of Lederer's fifteen Horrible Examples actually involve
participles (two present participles and three past participles).  The
rest have modifiers of other types -- six prepositional phrases, one
infinitival, one relative clause, one reduced comparative -- plus one
pronominal reference example that involves modifiers only because the
pronoun is inside one, though this example does superficially resemble
classic dangling-modifier cases.  The real theme -- twelve of the
fifteen examples -- turns out to be attachment ambiguities.  Surprise!

So here's Problem 1: The article is actually about modifiers in
general, not just participles.  This is just inexcusably sloppy for a
professor of English offering grammatical advice; people are confused
enough as it is about grammatical terminology, and now Lederer's column
throws "modifier" and "participle" around as if they were synonyms.

The headline is a disaster in this regard, and so is the framing text:

   The _AP Press Guide to News Writing_ advises: "The language
   has many ways to trip you up, most deviously through a modifier
   that turns up in the wrong place.  Don't let related ideas in a
   sentence drift apart.  Modifiers should be close to the word they
   purport to modify."  These statements culled from newspapers and
   magazines demonstrate what happens when a writer dangles his
   or her participles in public:

Horrible Example 1 has a wonky infinitival modifier:

   (1)
   The family lawyer will read the will tomorrow at the residence of
   Mr. Hannon, who died June 19 to accommodate his relatives.

and we don't get to an actual participle until example 6:

   (6)
   The burglar was about 30 years old, white, 5' 10", with wavy
   hair weighing about 150 pounds.

-- an attachment ambiguity that probably results from simple comma
omission; certainly, it could be fixed by treating "weighing about 150
lbs." as the fifth in a series of descriptors and setting it off by a
comma:

   (6')
   The burglar was about 30 years old, white, 5' 10', with wavy
   hair, weighing about 150 pounds.

All five of the descriptors apply to the burglar, but there's no way to
keep *all* of them close to "the burglar" -- though if you insisted on
keeping "weighing about 150 pounds" right next to "the burglar", you
could do it:

   (6")
   The burglar, weighing about 150 pounds, was about 30 years old,
   white, 5' 10", with wavy hair.

   Weighing about 150 pounds, the burglar was about 30 years old,
   white, 5' 10", with wavy hair.

These versions, however, highlight the burglar's avoirdupois in a way
that the writer almost surely didn't want, and they lose the nice
increasing-weight effect of (6'), which puts the longest, heaviest
descriptor last.  (It would also be possible to shorten "weighing about
150 pounds" to "about 150 pounds" and move it up in the descriptor
list.)

Horrible Example 15 might well be a simple comma error too:

   (15)
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout against hate
   crimes organized by the Marin County Human Rights Roundtable.

Here there are two dependents on "a speakout": the prepositional phrase
"against hate  crimes" and the participial "organized by the Marin
County Human Rights Roundtable".  Once again, we cannot possibly get
*both* of these dependents up against "a speakout"; we could move the
participial up --

   (15')
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout organized by the
   Marin County Human Rights Rountable against hate crimes.

This is clunky, because of the long-before-short order, and it's also
potentially ambiguous, with a "Rountable against hate crimes" reading
that strikes me as about as likely -- not very -- as the "hate crimes
organized by the MCHRR" reading of (15).  A much simpler fix would be
to set off "organized by the MCHRR"  in (15) by a comma; a somewhat
more complex fix would be to move it forward *and* set it off:

   (15")
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout against hate
   crimes, organized by the Marin County Human Rights Roundtable.

   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout, organized by the
   Marin County Human Rights Rountable, against hate crimes.

Similar remarks apply to:

   (13)
   Hunting can also be dangerous, as in the case of pygmies hunting
   elephants armed only with spears.

Still another participle Horrible Example, 12,  is almost surely the
result of that very common punctuation error, failing to use a comma
between conjuncts:

   (12)
   We spent most of our time sitting on the back porch watching the
   cows playing Scrabble and reading.

(I assume that we're not entertaining a reading in which the back porch
watches cows, only a reading in which the cows play Scrabble and read.)

This is spiffily fixed with a single comma:

   (12')
   We spent most of our time sitting on the back porch watching the
   cows, playing Scrabble and reading.

On the other hand, moving "playing Scrabble and reading" up to the
front, real close to the verb "spent", produces a sentence in which our
attention is strangely divided:

   (12")
   Playing Scrabble and reading, we spent most of our time sitting on
   the back porch watching the cows.

One more example, this time with a prepositional phrase instead of a
participial phrase: Horrible Example 9.

   (9)
   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate in the form of lectures, printed literature and
   promotional items.

The problem is to convey that it's the information that comes in the
form of lectures and so on, not that it's the garbage that comes that
way, or that the garbage is generated in those forms.  In this case,
moving the "in the form of..." phrase up will work nicely, so long as
(once again) it's set off by commas, or the even stronger dashes
(otherwise we risk the unintended reading "items on how to reduce..."):

   (9')
   Residents will be given information, in the form of lectures, printed
   literature and promotional items, on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage  they generate.

   Residents will be given information -- in the form of lectures,
printed
   literature and promotional items -- on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage  they generate.

Or we could leave  the "in the form of..." phrase where it is, but set
it off:

   (9")
   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate, in the form of lectures, printed literature and
   promotional items.

   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate -- in the form of lectures, printed literature
and
   promotional items.

Yes, the versions in (9") might still be misparsed, but they could
probably succeed just fine in context.

On to Problem 2: As is so often the case, the advisors don't actually
come right out and explain why there's an issue with the examples.
Lederer and the _AP Guide_ tell you to keep your modifiers close to the
things they modify, but they fail to mention why you should do that --
or, in fact, why the fifteen examples are (presented as) ludicrous.
The missing word is *ambiguity*.  Every single one of the Horrible
Examples runs awry, at least in Lederer's judgment, because of an
alternative interpretation that the writer didn't intend but the reader
might fix on.

Example (1) can be read as saying that Mr. Hannon died to accommodate
his relatives (which might or might not be true, but it probably wasn't
what the writer had in mind), while the intended reading is that the
reading of the will tomorrow is to accommodate Mr. Hannon's relatives.
Fixing this can't be managed just by moving "to accommodate his
relatives" closer to "read" than to "died", since other adjustments are
needed; this is left as an exercise for the reader.

Example (3) could be read as describing a passer-by with a bullet in
his head, instead of a bullet-riddled body:

   (3)
   The body was found in an alley by a passer-by with a bullet in his
head.

Once again, just moving the prepositional phrase "with a bullet in his
head" forward (and setting it off with commas) is not necessarily the
best move:

   (3')
   With a bullet in his head, the body was found in an alley by a
passer-by.

   The body, with a bullet in his head, was found  in an alley by a
passer-by.

The problem is the highlighting of the bullet in (3').  What really
works here is the simplest of adjustments -- making the shot passer-by
reading more unlikely by referring to the body as an inanimate object,
via the pronoun "it", with no movement of setting-off at all:

   (3")
   The body was found in an alley by a  passer-by with a bullet in its
head.

An equally easy fix is available for the following example, which (at
least out of context) induces giggles:

   (14)
   Police searched into the night for a man armed with a shotgun that
walked
   into a Boulder pharmacy Thursday morning, demanded drugs and then
   fled.

This is another one with two dependents of a single head, in this case
"a man".  Moving "armed with a shotgun" after the relative clause
doesn't help things at all, but a simple change in relative pronoun,
picking out a specifically human antecedent, does the trick:

   (14')
   Police searched into the night for a man armed with a shotgun who
walked
   into a Boulder pharmacy Thursday morning, demanded drugs and then
   fled.

Problem 3: The advisors talk as  if any *potential* ambiguity were a
problem that needed fixing.  This way lies madness.  Attachment
ambiguities and pronominal reference ambiguities are just *everywhere*.
  Telling writers to avoid potential ambiguities is pretty much telling
them to give up writing entirely.

Potential ambiguities aren't the issue; effective ambiguities,
ambiguities that a reasonable (and well-intentioned) reader might
stumble on, are the issue.  Picking out potential ambiguities requires
(merely!) that you know the syntax of the language.  Picking out
effective ambiguities, which you might seriously want to avoid,
requires factoring in common knowledge, your audience's mind-set,
prosodic effects, the discourse context, and much else.  Usage manuals
are almost all piss-poor at this sort of thing.  Lord knows what
students are supposed to make of their advice.

Now, some of Lederer's examples really are laughable, at least out of
context, because  the unintended reading just juts out.  The effect is
especially strong for very short sentence-final modifiers, which tend
to latch onto preceding stuff:

   (5)
   Organ donations from the living reached a record high last year,
   outnumbering donors who are dead for the first time.

("...dead donors for the first time" would fix this, without movement,
though movement works too.  Setting "for the first time " off by a
comma might work too.)

   (7)
   Beginning with three games on Tuesday, the unmistakable drama
   of postseason baseball will grip all of us who love the game for a
   month.

("...all of us baseball lovers for a month" would do, and maybe setting
off "for a month" with a comma.  All of the movement possibilities for
"for a month" sound awkward to me.)

   (11)
   The dog was hungry and made the mistake of nipping a 2-year-old
   that was trying to force feed it in his ear.

(Moving "in the ear" forward pushes it between a verb form, "nipping",
and its object, which is very awkward.  Moving it before "nipping" is
completely impossible, since "nipping..." is the object of the
preposition "of", and you just can't mess with a  preposition and its
object.  Major recasting is best: "the mistake of nipping the ear of a
2-year old that was...")

Problem 4: Examples are judged out of context, when in fact discourse
organization, information structure, common knowledge, and the like
play incredibly important roles in the interpretation of sentences -- a
fact you might never appreciate from presentations like Lederer's.

Here's the dangler-like pronominal-reference example from Lederer's
Failed Fifteen:

   (8)
   Despite its dismal record in human rights, the House of
Representatives
   has granted most favored nation status to China.

In isolation, it would be easy to (mis)interpret (8) as attributing a
dismal human-rights record  to the House.  But in a discourse that's
about China, the intended interpretation would come through without any
problem.

Similar remarks hold about some of the examples above, not to mention
sentences you can collect any day -- "...are trying to stop spam in
federal court" (news report on NPR's _Morning Edition_, 3/11/04), "I
found out what we'd done in '92" (line from the tv show _Law and
Order_; in the context, it's absolutely clear that it was the finding
out that happened  in 1992).

Problem 5: Movement is offered as the only solution (because
mislocation is identified as the only problem), despite the fact that,
as I pointed out above, movement is sometimes not even possible
(preserving the intended meaning), often not especially useful, and
sometimes not the best solution.

Look at Lederer's deer-hunting example:

   (2)
   Mrs. Shirley Baxter, who went deer hunting with her husband, is
   very proud that she was able to shoot a fine buck as well as her
   husband.

Moving "as well as her husband" after "shoot" favors the unintended
meaning.  Moving it after "able", and setting it off with commas, is
possible but really awkward.  The easy solution is not to reduce the
comparative quite so much:

   (2')
   Mrs. Shirley Baxter, who went deer hunting with her husband, is
   very proud that she was able to shoot a fine buck as well as her
   husband can.

This is not to deny that sometimes movement is the way to go.  The one
absolutely classic sort of dangling-modifier example in Lederer's list
really needs the modifier moved, from:

   (10)
   Aided by a thousand eyes, the author explains how ants navigate and
   how they use dead reckoning.

to:

   (10')
   The author explains how, aided by a thousand eyes, ants navigate
   and how they use dead reckoning.

   The author explains how ants, aided by a thousand eyes, navigate
   and how they use dead reckoning.

Problem 6: Not so crucial as the others, but the assumption that what
modifiers modify is a single *word* (rather than some larger
constituent) can present puzzles for the student.  Look at Lederer's
sixth example (yes, this is the only one left):

   (6)
   The suspect was spotted in a vehicle matching the description
   of one which had been stolen from the Annabelle area by Sheriff's
   Office Sgt. Craig White.

The textbook doctrine here is that the problem is that "by Sheriff's
Office Sgt. Craig White" needs to be close to the word it modifies,
"spotted" (how, by the way, does the student learn what modifies
what?).  And, in fact, moving it right after "spotted" does the job:

   (6')
   The suspect was spotted by Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White in a
   vehicle matching the description of one which had been stolen
   from the Annabelle area.

But the clever student will notice that in (6'), "in a vehicle..."
isn't close to the word it modifies.  (Clever professionals understand
that the problem with (6) isn't really separation, but an inadvertent
attachment ambiguity.)  Why isn't that bad?

An even more  clever student will wonder why "The suspect was spotted
in a vehicle by Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White" doesn't need to be
reworded to (the more marked version) "The suspect was spotted by
Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White in a  vehicle".  The short answer is
that the "by"-phrase modifies a whole VP and that putting it after the
VP *is* locating it next to the thing it modifies.  It *can* occur
after the head of the expression it modifies, if that avoids an
effective ambiguity and/or allows a long and heavy constituent (like
"in a vehicle matching the description of one which had been stolen
from the Annabelle area") to come last in the sentence, but that's not
its usual location.

So...  we can guffaw at these examples, ripped out of their contexts
and paraded in front of us under the banner of "dangling participles"
perpetrated by writers who should have known better.  or we can wonder,
sadly, what a reader who's hoping to learn something from a professor
of English can make of all this -- confusingly labeled examples, a rule
that drops from the sky, no guidance about when the rule is important
and when it's not, instructions for repair that are hard to follow and
often lead to very odd results.  If you didn't already know how to
write well, could you learn anything from Lederer's column?

That's a rhetorical question.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 12:16:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:16:38 EST
Subject: "Uttapam" of Indian vegetarian cooking
Message-ID: 

ENGLISH--I might have a free day tomorrow to research "English" and
"Uttapam."  Can the ESPN guy wait one day for a correct "English" answer?...He knows
me.  (See "drag racing" in ADS-L archives.)  Why didn't he contact me?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
UTTAPAM

UTTAPAM--635 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

   A short post before wasting yet another day of my life doing parking
tickets.
   Did I just do "Curry Hill" with "Times Square"?  Well, in Wednesday's NEW
YORK TIMES:

   Chennai Garden, along with Curry Leaf, has some of the best food in the
neighborhood known as Curry Hill, which radiates out from Lexington Avenue and
28th Street.

   Radiates?
   Declares the TIMES today:

After Centuries, the Vegetarian Feast of India Finally Arrives
By JULIA MOSKIN
Published: March 24, 2004
SUVIR SARAN, a chef at the ambitious new Indian restaurant Amma, in Midtown,
has never tasted the restaurant's tandoor-grilled lamb chops. "My family in
Delhi have been vegetarians for generations," he said. "At least since the 15th
century. Before that we are not so sure." Jehangir Mehta, the pastry chef at
Aix on the Upper West Side, grew up in Mumbai, where about 30 percent of the 12
million residents are vegetarian. "The vegetarian cooking of India is
excellent training for a pastry chef," he said. "It teaches you how much range can be
achieved with spices and herbs." India has the most varied vegetarian cooking
in the world, and it has been thousands of years in the making. Now, finally,
it is also widely available and authentically prepared in restaurants across
New York City.

   Yeah, you thought that Little India had existed for several generations
now.  But the TIMES has just declared that Indian vegetarian food has finally
arrived.  And you haven't arrived until the TIMES says you've arrived.
    (OT:  "Uttapam" will get more ink than "the Big Apple."  Just try killing
yourself on a parking ticket paper cut.  You can't do it.  That'll be the
day.)
    "Uttapam" is not in the OED.  Indian food has now officially ARRIVED, so
here's the rest of the TIMES' take:

   Many New Yorkers who have adopted dosas are moving on to idlis, also
crafted from rice and lentils but much thicker and fluffier than dosas. When
well-made, idlis have the pillowy texture and light tang of the perfect buttermilk
pancake. Uttapams are also something like pancakes, but the batter is poured
around tomatoes, mushrooms, onions or mushrooms, to make tender,
vegetable-studded rounds.
   Idlis and uttapams are always served with a bowl of sambar, a soupy, tangy
tamarind-spiked stew of lentils and vegetables that is synonymous with South
Indian cooking.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: south indian restaurants in San Francisco
... San Francisco. I will be there for five days in June and would like
to catch up on my dosa and uttapam quota for the year. I am ...
soc.culture.indian - Jun 2, 1992 by ksrao at POWER.EEE.NDSU.NODAK.EDU - View
Thread (4 articles)

Dosai recipe (followup from Uttapam)
... accompanying recipes. For the uttapam, follow directions for GRINDING
and then start using the uttapam instructions. Good luck. radhika ...
rec.food.cooking - Mar 10, 1992 by Radhika Thekkath - View Thread (1 article)

Re: REQUEST: UTTAPAM
In his article weisman at osf.org (David Weisman) writes: I was in a Southern
Indian restaurant and had a dish called Uttapam. It was ...
rec.food.cooking - Mar 7, 1992 by Radhika Thekkath - View Thread (4 articles)


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Mar 24 13:03:24 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:03:24 -0500
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
Message-ID: 

From:    Geoff Nathan 
: Page Stephens wrote:

:: 101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation
:: of the first course in any subject but in my memory before for
:: whatever reason all too many colleges/universities designated
:: beginning courses by adding the 10 as a prefix to 1 we used to
:: call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1, Chemistry 1, English 1,
:: etc. The second courses in the subject would then be entitled 2, 3,
:: etc.

:: If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would
:: love to learn about it.

Well, as other responses have pointed out, it's not quite that simple, and
seems to be related to the size of the school and, possibly, the system
schools use to conduct registration.

For example, if a large school (say, the U of Maryland College Park, my
undergrad institution) knows its department with the largest number of
courses has more than 99 but less than 1,000, and the school's system for
registration would go easier if all course numbers had the same number of
digits, then it makes sense for all courses to have 3-digit numbers.

That's just speculation, of course. But a system where (say, like at Penn,
my grad school) 1xx and 2xx marks introductory undergrad courses, 3xx marks
advanced undergrad courses, 4xx marks undergrad courses grad students can
take for credit, 5xx marks grad courses advanced undergrads can take, 6xx
marks grad-only courses, 7xx marks (IIRC) master's thesis credit, and 8xx
(marks (IIRC) dissertation credit seems more transparent than Physics 1, 2,
3,...,n to me, at least once you know the system--you can tell at a glance
with a course is cupposed to be and who can take it.

: Even stranger, I found when I arrived at Wayne State University that
: courses here had grown an additional digit, so that Freshman English
: is now 1010. This change happened several years ago--recent enough
: that some of my colleagues still call courses by their three-digit
: names (so 2720 is still 272). Since this changes the morphology
: considerably I have to stop and do arithmetic to figure out which
: course they are talking about.

In Florida (for all public institutions and many private institutions) a
4-digit numbering system is *mandatory*. The description of the system
according to the U of Central Florida catalog:

  "Courses in this catalog are identified by prefixes and numbers that
   were assigned by Florida’s Statewide Course Numbering System. This
   common numbering system is used by all public postsecondary
   institutions in Florida and by twenty-six participating non-public
   institutions. The major purpose of this system is to facilitate the
   transfer of courses between participating institutions.

  "Each participating institution controls the title, credit, and content
   of its own courses and recommends the first digit of the course number
   to indicate the level at which students normally take the course.
   Course prefixes and the last three digits of the course numbers are
   assigned by members of faculty discipline committees appointed for that
   purpose by the Florida Department of Education in Tallahassee...

  "The course prefix and each digit in the course number have meaning in
   the Statewide Course Numbering System (SCNS). The list of course
   prefixes and numbers, along with their generic titles, is referred to
   as the 'SCNS taxonomy.' Descriptions of the content of courses are
   referred to as 'course equivalency profiles.'"

So sometimes there is method to the (very deep and disturbed) madness.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 24 15:02:28 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:02:28 -0500
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:27 PM -0800 3/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>That's the title of one of Richard Lederer's syndicated columns on the
>English language, which I came across on page 19 of the March 2004
>Funny Times (a Cleveland, Ohio, compendium of recent humorous cartoons
>and essays, with what now counts as a way-left tinge to its politics).
>Yes, like Lederer's columns in general, it's supposed to be funny --
>he's fond of puns and other kinds of word play -- but it's also
>supposed to be instructive.  (Lederer is, after all, an English
>professor.)
>
Indeed.  Words to, or at least from, the wise, as always from Arnold.
Lederer is an interesting case.  His children include two world-class
poker players, Howard Lederer and Annie Duke (as I learned from James
McManus's great memoir, _Positively Fifth Street_); Annie advanced
farther (ninth place, I believe) than any other woman in the annual
World Series of Poker.  Another sibling, Katie Lederer, a poet and
author of the earlier _Winter Sex_, recently published her own memoir
of what it was like growing up with a father who was a boarding
school English teacher who writes humorous and/or prescriptive
language books on the side, a mother whose main joys in life were
scotch and crossword puzzles, and two professional poker playing
siblings.   Her book on the Lederer tribe is called, of course,
_Poker Face_ (Crown, 2003).

larry horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 24 18:43:02 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:43:02 -0800
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:27 PM, i wrote:

> ... (Lederer is, after all, an English
> professor.)

as larry horn has gently noted in his follow-up posting, i misspoke
here; lederer is not in fact a professor of english, but a long-time
instructor of english, at st. paul's school.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), back at his study/library, where he
can
   consult sources


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Mar 25 02:57:30 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:57:30 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?

Gerald Cohen



At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>Hello.
>any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>shows. what's happening?
>many thanks,
>Bill Hendrick


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:19:41 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:19:41 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403250306.i2P36K205325@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.

Jim Parish

Gerald Cohen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Gerald Cohen 
> Subject:      Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
> signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
> At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
> >Hello.
> >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
> >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
> >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
> >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
> >shows. what's happening?
> >many thanks,
> >Bill Hendrick


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:34:38 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:34:38 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <4061FB6D.10088.3F24EBB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

"The Bridges of Madison County" was published in 1992, and the movie
came out in 1995.

Jim Parish wrote:
>Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
>came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
>know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.
>
>Jim Parish
>
>Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       Gerald Cohen 
>>  Subject:      Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
>>  signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>>
>>  Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>>  >Hello.
>>  >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>>  >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>>  >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>>  >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>>  >shows. what's happening?
>>  >many thanks,
>>  >Bill Hendrick


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:46:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:46:17 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 8:57 PM -0600 3/24/04, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
>signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
>At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>>Hello.
>>any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>>now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>>32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>>names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>>shows. what's happening?
>>many thanks,
>>Bill Hendrick

One standard answer is the use of the name for the mermaid played by
Daryl (sp?) Hannah in "Splash" (opposite Tom Hanks).  It was actually
quite a painless comedy, and Hannah was a lovely mermaid.  The Hanks
character asks her her name at some point while walking in Midtown
Manhattan, she doesn't have one (being a mermaid and all), and looks
up at the Madison Ave. street sign, and the rest is history.    The
problem with this theory is that "Splash" was released in the
mid-1980s, and evidently the big jump in popularity came quite a bit
later.

Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:47:18 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:47:18 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <4061FB6D.10088.3F24EBB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

At 9:19 PM -0600 3/24/04, Jim Parish wrote:
>Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
>came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
>know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.
>
>Jim Parish
>
Oops.  Sorry for the repetition of Jim's point.  Should have looked
through the rest of my mailer before replying.

Larry Horn


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 25 03:54:45 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:57 PM
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?

While it doesn't answer your quesiton, it deserves to be read.
http://www.wesclark.com/ubn/below_the_beltway.html
Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 04:28:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:28:05 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

   OT, FOR THE RECORD:  I have never laid a hand on my wife Jennifer Lopez.
   From the ADS-L ARCHIVES:

On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:

> Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
> he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.

I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
conflated the two people.

Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
all their reporting is riddled with errors.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
The Ringmaster of Old.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27, 1901. p. SM18 (1 page) :
(Same article as in APS ONLINE in 1902.  Both are from THE CORNHILL--ed.)


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
THE CIRCUS.; THE LAMENT OF A PURE MIND.
E V Lucas. Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature (1901-1907). New York: Jan 1902. Vol. 138, Iss. 1; p. 92 (6 pages)
Pg. 93:  The first question was anything; the second question was anything; but the third, propounded by the clown after long self-communing, was steeped in guile: "Do you _still_ beat your wife?"  There is no way out of that; affirmative and negative alike are powerless to rob the "still" of its sting; and off goes the clown with his bottle of wine, crack goes the whip, round ambles the old white horse with a back like Table Mountain, and the Signortna resumes her pretty capers.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal)
MR. BRYAN'S TRICK QUESTIONS.
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1911. p. 1 (1 page) :
   Perhaps Mr. Bryan would like to answer one or two questions framed after the "Do you still beat your wife?" model, bearing upon his own financial past?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
   The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.  The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
   But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book by Gus C. Edwards.
   In the book, Mr. Siegel said, the joke goes as follows: A browbeating lawyer was demanding that a witness answer a certain question either in the negative of affirmative.
   "I cannot do it," the witness said.  "There are some questions that cannot be answered by a 'yes' or a 'no,' as anyone knows."
   "I defy you to give an example to the court," thundered the lawyer.  The retort came like a flash: "Are you still beating your wife?"
   A sickly grin spread over the lawyer's face and he sat down.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 04:57:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:57:05 -0500
Subject: The dog ate my homework (1962)
Message-ID: 

 DOG ATE + HOMEWORK--13,600 Google hits, 6,090 Google Groups hits

   There's just not enough Puppy Chow in this world.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
In a Class by Themselves
By FLORENCE CROWTHER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 18, 1962. p. BR10 (1 page) :
   Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school; the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it; mother was sick; last night was Scout meeting; it rained.

Excuse Me!; A History of Delightful Deceits And Other Unpardonable Talk Making One's Excuses
By Michael Kernan. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 6, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages)

The Dog Ate My Homework
William McPherson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 27, 1984. p. A23 (1 page)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Aaugh! A dog ate my book report /
Author: Schulz, Charles M.; Schulz, Charles M.
Publication: [New York] : HarperCollins, 1998

My dog ate it /
Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
Publication: New York : Holiday House, 1994

The dog ate my homework /
Author: Haynes, Betsy.
Publication: New York : HarperPaperbacks, 1997

The dog ate my homework :
personal responsibility--how we avoid it and what to do about it /
Author: Barry, Vincent E.
Publication: Kansas City, Mo. : Andrews and McMeel, 199? (accidentally deleted--ed.)

The dog ate my home work :
poems /
Author: Holbrook, Sara.
Publication: Honesdale, Pa. : Boyds Mills Press, 1996

The dog ate it :
conquering homework hassles /
Author: McEwan, Elaine K., 1941-
Publication: Wheaton, Ill. : Harold Shaw Publishers, 1996

My dog ate my homework! :
a collection of funny poems /
Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen,
Publication: Minnetonka, MN : New York : Meadowbrook Press ; Distributed by Simon & Schuster, 2002, 1996

The dog ate my homework social skills for today /
Author: Slonecki, Catherine. Publication: Freeport, NY :; Educational Activities/Activity Records, 1995

My dog ate it /
Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
Publication: New York : Scholastic Inc., 1994

My dog ate my homework :
and other lame excuses!
Publication: Lansing, MI : Office of Highway Safety Planning, 2001

The dog ate my homework
Author: Caserta, Carmen Dana.; Eberl, Luke., and others Publication: Jacksonville, IL : New Dimension Media, Inc., 1999
Document: English : Visual Material  : Videorecording : Elementary and junior high school  :  VHS tape

My homework ate my dog :
great cartoons from the Phi Delta Kappan, 1991-1996 /
Author: Bucheri, Carol.; Way, Sheila.
Publication: Bloomington, Ind. : Phi Delta Kappa International, 1996

The dog ate my home work /
Author: Holbrook, Sara.
Publication: [Bay Village, Ohio] : S. Holbrook, 1993

My dog ate my retirement plan :
how to find an extra $1,000 a month when you retire /
Author: Greenleaf, Geofrey, J.
Publication: Cleveland, OH : Greenleaf, 2003

My dog ate my homework! /
Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen.
Publication: Minnetonka, Minn. : Poole : Meadowbrook ; Chris Lloyd, 2003, 1996


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 25 05:02:00 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:02:00 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: 
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)



> I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
> intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
> Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
> stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
> referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
> told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
> conflated the two people.
> all their reporting is riddled with errors.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
> On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
> By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>    The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.
The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy
that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
>    But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not
to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book
by Gus C. Edwards.

So, you're saying that Fred has a secret identity?

Abby certainly isn't a "Good nough*" reporter, based on that story.

Pronounced 'good nuff' in my world.  :)

Sam Clements


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 08:52:51 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:52:51 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403250354.i2P3sopH026766@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

Speculation: because Madison isn't necessarily a name for girls. If so in part,
may it, speculatively, parallel an increasing (?) tendency of women to change
their first name, in some cases dropping their given first name (or using
initials), and using a second (middle) name, sometimes a family name?

Stephen Goranson


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Mar 25 10:15:25 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:15:25 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <1080204770.40629de300011@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she didn't name the child
after anyone or anything.

Since reading of the name's popularity some time ago, I have
encountered many other Madisons, and their parents, and as far as I can
remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name from the air, that
they didn't borrow it from a television or movie character, an actress,
a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or anything specific.
"Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been washed ashore by
the zeigeist.

Grant


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 11:01:31 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:01:31 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
In-Reply-To: <000501c41226$4ed92f50$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote:

> Abby certainly isn't a "Good nough*" reporter, based on that story.

I think of her as "Abby Not Goodnough."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Mar 25 12:32:53 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:32:53 -0500
Subject: The dog ate my homework (1962)
Message-ID: 

I remember this from 5th grade (1953 or so).

American Dialect Society  writes:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      The dog ate my homework (1962)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> DOG ATE + HOMEWORK--13,600 Google hits, 6,090 Google Groups hits
>
>   There's just not enough Puppy Chow in this world.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>In a Class by Themselves
>By FLORENCE CROWTHER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
>Feb 18, 1962. p. BR10 (1 page) :
>   Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school;
>the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it;
>mother was sick; last night was Scout meeting; it rained.
>
>Excuse Me!; A History of Delightful Deceits And Other Unpardonable Talk
>Making One's Excuses
>By Michael Kernan. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
>D.C.: Jul 6, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages)
>
>The Dog Ate My Homework
>William McPherson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
>D.C.: Mar 27, 1984. p. A23 (1 page)
>
>
>(OCLC WORLDCAT)
>Aaugh! A dog ate my book report /
>Author: Schulz, Charles M.; Schulz, Charles M.
>Publication: [New York] : HarperCollins, 1998
>
>My dog ate it /
>Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
>Publication: New York : Holiday House, 1994
>
>The dog ate my homework /
>Author: Haynes, Betsy.
>Publication: New York : HarperPaperbacks, 1997
>
>The dog ate my homework :
>personal responsibility--how we avoid it and what to do about it /
>Author: Barry, Vincent E.
>Publication: Kansas City, Mo. : Andrews and McMeel, 199? (accidentally
>deleted--ed.)
>
>The dog ate my home work :
>poems /
>Author: Holbrook, Sara.
>Publication: Honesdale, Pa. : Boyds Mills Press, 1996
>
>The dog ate it :
>conquering homework hassles /
>Author: McEwan, Elaine K., 1941-
>Publication: Wheaton, Ill. : Harold Shaw Publishers, 1996
>
>My dog ate my homework! :
>a collection of funny poems /
>Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen,
>Publication: Minnetonka, MN : New York : Meadowbrook Press ; Distributed
>by Simon & Schuster, 2002, 1996
>
>The dog ate my homework social skills for today /
>Author: Slonecki, Catherine. Publication: Freeport, NY :; Educational
>Activities/Activity Records, 1995
>
>My dog ate it /
>Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
>Publication: New York : Scholastic Inc., 1994
>
>My dog ate my homework :
>and other lame excuses!
>Publication: Lansing, MI : Office of Highway Safety Planning, 2001
>
>The dog ate my homework
>Author: Caserta, Carmen Dana.; Eberl, Luke., and others Publication:
>Jacksonville, IL : New Dimension Media, Inc., 1999
>Document: English : Visual Material  : Videorecording : Elementary and
>junior high school  :  VHS tape
>
>My homework ate my dog :
>great cartoons from the Phi Delta Kappan, 1991-1996 /
>Author: Bucheri, Carol.; Way, Sheila.
>Publication: Bloomington, Ind. : Phi Delta Kappa International, 1996
>
>The dog ate my home work /
>Author: Holbrook, Sara.
>Publication: [Bay Village, Ohio] : S. Holbrook, 1993
>
>My dog ate my retirement plan :
>how to find an extra $1,000 a month when you retire /
>Author: Greenleaf, Geofrey, J.
>Publication: Cleveland, OH : Greenleaf, 2003
>
>My dog ate my homework! /
>Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen.
>Publication: Minnetonka, Minn. : Poole : Meadowbrook ; Chris Lloyd, 2003,
>1996
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 14:23:04 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:23:04 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
In-Reply-To: <000501c41226$4ed92f50$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

At 12:02 AM -0500 3/25/04, Sam Clements wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: 
>Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
>
>[Fred Shapiro writes:]
>
>>  I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>>  intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>>  Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>>  stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>  > referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  ...
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>>  On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
>>  By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
>24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>>     The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
>librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.
>The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy
>that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
>>     But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not
>to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book
>by Gus C. Edwards.
>

In terms of the actual question (and the point on questions building
in presuppositions), of course it's largely a matter of definition as
to who came up with it first.  For the Megarians (3d century B.C.),
the sophism of choice was "Do you still beat your father? Answer yes
or no."  The scholastics preferred "Do you still beat your ass?" [the
donkey, not fundament].  And for us moderns, "Do you still beat your
wife?"  24 centuries of social progress...

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 14:27:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:07 EST
Subject: "All broth and no beans" & "Fine as cream gravy" (Two from Texas)
Message-ID: 

   Two more "food" Americanisms.  They both seem to be from Texas, where our 
digital resources are a bit weak right now.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ALL BROTH AND NO BEANS
  
ALL BROTH + NO BEANS--9 Google hits,  no Google Groups hit
  
  
(GOOGLE)
President Bush's 100% Foolproof National Security Strategy, As ...
... heel. He's as sharp as mashed potatoes and as full of wind as a 
corn-eating
horse. But mostly, he's all broth and no beans. And ... 
www.whitehouse.org/news/2002/092502.asp - 23k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Texas Monthly: Texas Sayings
... He thinks the sun comes up just to hear him crow. He's all broth and no 
beans. He
broke his arm patting himself on the back. More Sayings. Advertising 
Sections. ... 
www.texasmonthly.com/ranch/sayings/boastful.1.php - 20k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
MORE Texas Talkin...
... He thinks the sun comes up just to hear him crow. He's all broth
and no beans. He broke his arm patting himself on the back. To ... 
www.beer-bytch.com/texastalk2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Texas Sayings about being Boastful and Big
... He thinks the sun rises jest to hear him crow. He's all broth and no
beans. Hell, he'll break his arm to pat hisself on the back. Hes ... 
www.geocities.com/theladyrebel60/sayings.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
..84 nations........ - www.ezboard.com
... say. Its that he's all broth and no beans. He couldn't pour rain out
of a boot with a hole in the toe and directions on the heel. ... 
www.celloheaven.com/mbarchs/2001/june2/84nation.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar 
pages 

  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
No hits
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FINE AS CREAM GRAVY
  
FINE AS CREAM GRAVY--27 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit
FINE LIKE CREAM GRAVY--no Google hit, no Google Groups hit
  
   Not in the HDAS, which has "fine as wine."
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Lone Star Chicken Fried Steak with Cream Gravy Recipe on The ...
... milk. And incidentally, for a Texan to say that something is "fine
as cream gravy" is high praise indeed! Ingredients for 4 people. ... 
www.theworldwidegourmet.com/meat/ beef/texas-lonestar.htm - 8k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
     
Becker History 1890-1900
... Not many other men could hold a candle to you as far as I’m concerned. 
That
land you gave us is fine as cream gravy, and everyone I know agrees. ... 
www.becker.k12.mn.us/ourtown/1890's/narritive.html - 9k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
[PDF] Conference Brochure FINAL-web changes.indd
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting 
our text version of this document.
... clothes, rather than plain range-riding or work clothes Eureka ~ 
victorious discovery
Fandango ~ a very lively dance or party Fine as cream gravy ~ very good ... 
www.nhfa.org/education_PDFs/may04_convention-pg2.pdf - Similar pages 
  
Texas Monthly: Texas Sayings
... through the cloud. I'm cooking on a front burner today. She's got
a lot of stars in her crown. Fine as cream gravy. More Sayings. ... 
www.texasmonthly.com/ranch/sayings/happy.1.php - 21k - Cached - Similar pages 

  
Gift Wrapping
Click to enlarge We'll wrap yer gift "in apple pie order" usin' our purty 
gift
boxes, ol' west wrappin' paper and our "fine as cream gravy" Gold Mountain 
... 
www.goldmountainmining.com/giftwrapping.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Creation Corral
The precision of our artisans is as fine as cream gravy -- just watchin’
‘em figure out how to go about a project is pure-d-pleasure. 
www.ranchhousetradingco.com/41.html - 2k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
MORE Texas Talkin...
... I felt any better, I'd drop my harp plumb through the cloud, I'm cooking 
on a front
burner today, She's got a lot of stars in her crown, I'm fine as cream gravy 
... 
www.beer-bytch.com/texastalk2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Black & Decker TRO1000 Toaster Oven Review at Epinions.com
... Decker Electronic Toast-R-Oven Broiler TRO1000 (you really have to intone 
that, with
all the drama of a '40s radio announcer) – is fine as cream gravy for my ... 
www.epinions.com/content_77887868548 - 60k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
OLD WEST SLANG AND PHRASES, A Writer's Guide
... Fetch me that hammer." / "He fetched him a punch in the nose.". Fight 
like Kilkenny
cats ~ fight like hell. Fine as cream gravy ~ very good, top notch. ... 
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~poindexterfamily/ OldWestSlang.html - 36k - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
Cowboy Words - [ Translate this page ]
... Fight like Kilkenny cats* ~ kämpfen wie die Hölle. *Fine as cream gravy* 
~ sehr
gut, spitze. *Fish* ~ Cowboy-Regenmantel, nach einem Hersteller, dessen. ... 
mitglied.lycos.de/reling2/worte.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages 

Slang
... Fetch me that hammer." / "He fetched him a punch in the nose." Fight like 
Kilkenny
cats ~ fight like hell. Fine as cream gravy ~ very good, top notch. ... 
zoron.org/deadlands/slang.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages Hope Part 13
... Hey Vin - how’re you doing?”. “Fine as cream gravy...got
ourselves a card game going. You want in?”. “No thanks Vin. ... 
www.angelfire.com/journal/fourcorners/hope13.html - 17k - Supplemental Result 
- Cached - Similar pages 


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Mar 25 15:04:27 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <557324AE-7E45-11D8-ADFB-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

Zeitgist might be the best answer!

(The ranking of names in the following discussion is
based on the information at
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/.)

My wife and I struggled over the name of our first
daughter, born in 1975: my wife wanted "Stephanie"
because she held the actress Stephanie Powers in
especial esteem, I wanted something else - something
feminine, uncommon but not bizarre.  We went to see
"Love Bug" (or a sequel), in which S. Powers played a
character named Nicole; well, we both agreed Nicole
was perfect.  Turns out - Nicole was the 11th most
popular name for girls during the 70's; however, we
apparently caught it on the way up as it was number
186 in the 60's and went up to 8 for the 80's. (I
recall reading a news article a year or two after
Nicole's birth that placed Nicole in the top 10 for
1975, but the SSA list for 1975 doesn't concur.)  We
di name our next daughter Stephanie (1978), which
turned out to be number 9 for the 70's (up from 45 for
the 60's and went up to 6 in the 80's).  We finally
got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
and up to number 10 in the 90's.  We didn't
consciously perceive any of these names as popular at
the time we chose them, and we were truly trying to
avoid the most common or popular names.



--- Grant Barrett  wrote:
> My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she
> didn't name the child
> after anyone or anything.
>
> Since reading of the name's popularity some time
> ago, I have
> encountered many other Madisons, and their parents,
> and as far as I can
> remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name
> from the air, that
> they didn't borrow it from a television or movie
> character, an actress,
> a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or
> anything specific.
> "Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been
> washed ashore by
> the zeigeist.
>
> Grant

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Mar 25 15:23:13 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:23:13 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <0309C746.59F899EF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 PM 3/24/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:
>
> > Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
> > he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.
>
>I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
>told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
>conflated the two people.
>
>Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
>something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
>all their reporting is riddled with errors.


Now that I am no longer the research assistant (Elizabeth Phillips will be
back starting Tuesday), I have a little more perspective on this issue. I
now have an anal retentive A-Type personality fact-checker AND a copy
editor calling me on Safire's column every week. The last one argued with
me until she was blue in the face that the root of yotta had to be Latin
based on AHD4, and M-W's "perhaps alteration of Italian otto eight" was
just plain wrong  "cause Italian, as you know, comes from the Latin and
therefore....." And I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
Greek for eight and she might as well just go all the way back and says
it's all Greek like Random House does. I swear she was pounding her foot on
the floor screaming "Latin, Latin Latin." It went is as Latin and there was
nothing I could do about it.

They've got time to do that since the magazine is on a 16 day lead time.
The regular news is basically just edited for syntax and grammar, so you
basically just have to trust the reporter.

On an aside - a new clerk came in the other day. She's writing her
dissertation. At the coffee machines we came to a startling conclusion.
Every single one of the people who are supporting the paper and making very
little money doing so- research assistants, clerks, file clerks,
secretaries etc. has an advanced degree. Not a single one of us with less
than a masters. Can't say the same for those who are writing it, unfortunately.

Wonder what that fact-checker has her MA in?

Kathleen E. Miller
In limbo at the Times


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 15:36:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:36:43 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040325100314.00b12640@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:23 AM -0500 3/25/04, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>The last one argued with
>me until she was blue in the face that the root of yotta had to be Latin
>based on AHD4, and M-W's "perhaps alteration of Italian otto eight" was
>just plain wrong  "cause Italian, as you know, comes from the Latin and
>therefore....." And I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
>Greek for eight and she might as well just go all the way back and says
>it's all Greek like Random House does.

Not to quibble, but...

Is there any evidence that Lat. _octo_ derives from Gk. _okto_, as
opposed to reflecting a parallel development from the Indo-European?
They're cognates with each other, of course, and with Proto-Germanic
root of _eight_, but neither is a borrowing from the other as far as
I know.

Larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:12:22 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:12:22 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
Message-ID: 

        In a half-hearted defense of reporters, let me just say that getting the facts straight is much, much harder than it sounds.  I think there is a tendency to read news reports and assume their accuracy; not, perhaps, on big, politically charged issues, but on more routine accounts.  If you have spent some time with reporters, you realize the extent to which they are just flailing, and that every news report should be taken with a grain of salt.

        Specifically with regard to the prefix yotta- (meaning multiplied by 10 followed by 24 zeroes [10^24], just as kilo- means multiplied by 10^3):  I wouldn't think it would be too questionable, since we know where it came from.  It was adopted by the 19th Conférence Générale des Poids et Mesures in 1991 as part of the International System of Units maintained by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).  According to a BIPM publication, at http://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/si-brochure.pdf, "The names yocto and yotta are derived from octo, suggesting the number eight (the eighth power of 10^3); the letter "y" is added to avoid the use of the letter "o" as a symbol because it may be confused with the number zero."  Yocto- is the counterpart prefix for small units, 10^-24.  While the BIPM did not comment on why it thought that octo suggests the number eight, its explanation seems to make an Italian derivation less likely.

John Baker


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:28:36 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:28:36 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:36 AM 3/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>Quibbles are fine. My degree's in History, so I only know what the 
>dictionaries tell me. And in this instance the word wasn't in the OED and 
>AHD4, RH and M-W all had something different. Random House said it was 
>from Greek iota. M-W said it was "perhaps alteration of Italian otto 
>eight" and AHD4 said it was an
>Alteration of octo– " which lead to looking up octo which has "Greek 
>okta-, okt- Latin octo-" and "Greek okta-, okt-, okt- (from okt) & Latin 
>octo-, oct-, from octo ." So is it safe to say they're "related by 
>derivation, borrowing, or descent."


Kathleen E. Miller


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 25 16:50:39 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:50:39 -0800
Subject: In defense of journalists
Message-ID: 

Fred's comments are a little unfair. True, many journalists are
sloppy or ill informed, but in my experience the majority are smart
professionals who make an honest effort to get their facts straight.
It isn't easy to do justice to an unfamiliar subject when you're
working under deadline -- not many linguists would be able to knock
out 800 words on recent developments in string theory for tomorrow's
early edition. And you could point to some very good coverage of
language issues in the NY Times in particular, for example in
articles by Michael Erard, Margolit Fox, and Nicholas Wade. If these
seem like the exception in the general press, it's partly because
editors tend not to regard language as a reportorial specialty the
way they do other kinds of science writing, and so often assign
language stories to feature writers who come to the subject armed
with no more than the sense they were born with (or more accurately,
the sense they acquired in seventh grade at the business end of
Sister Petra's ruler.)


Geoff Nunberg

>    OT, FOR THE RECORD:  I have never laid a hand on my wife Jennifer Lopez.
>    From the ADS-L ARCHIVES:
>
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:
>
>>  Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
>>  he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.
>
>I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
>told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
>conflated the two people.
>
>Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
>something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
>all their reporting is riddled with errors.
>
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
>
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>The Ringmaster of Old.
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27, 1901. p.
>SM18 (1 page) :
>(Same article as in APS ONLINE in 1902.  Both are from THE CORNHILL--ed.)
>
>
>(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
>THE CIRCUS.; THE LAMENT OF A PURE MIND.
>E V Lucas. Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature (1901-1907). New
>York: Jan 1902. Vol. 138, Iss. 1; p. 92 (6 pages)
>Pg. 93:  The first question was anything; the second question was
>anything; but the third, propounded by the clown after long
>self-communing, was steeped in guile: "Do you _still_ beat your
>wife?"  There is no way out of that; affirmative and negative alike
>are powerless to rob the "still" of its sting; and off goes the
>clown with his bottle of wine, crack goes the whip, round ambles the
>old white horse with a back like Table Mountain, and the Signortna
>resumes her pretty capers.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal)
>MR. BRYAN'S TRICK QUESTIONS.
>Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20,
>1911. p. 1 (1 page) :
>    Perhaps Mr. Bryan would like to answer one or two questions
>framed after the "Do you still beat your wife?" model, bearing upon
>his own financial past?
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
>By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York,
>N.Y.: Apr 24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>    The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
>librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal
>Quotations.  The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type
>of logical fallacy that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel
>said.
>    But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be
>traced not to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every
>Jury," a 1914 book by Gus C. Edwards.
>    In the book, Mr. Siegel said, the joke goes as follows: A
>browbeating lawyer was demanding that a witness answer a certain
>question either in the negative of affirmative.
>    "I cannot do it," the witness said.  "There are some questions
>that cannot be answered by a 'yes' or a 'no,' as anyone knows."
>    "I defy you to give an example to the court," thundered the
>lawyer.  The retort came like a flash: "Are you still beating your
>wife?"
>    A sickly grin spread over the lawyer's face and he sat down.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:53:31 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:53:31 EST
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular
Message-ID: 

In a message dated   Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:57:30 -0600,  Gerald Cohen
 quoted:
>
>  At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>  >Hello.
>  >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>  >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>  >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>  >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>  >shows. what's happening?

I diagnose three long-term trends in naming of baby girls in the US.

1.  Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Scottish) names are more fashionable than they used
to be.  The first time I remember hearing the name "Kaitlyn" was in the Paul
Newman move "The Verdict" (1982) and I failed to recognize it as a Celtic
name.  Nowadays it seems perfectly normal.  Similarly Megan has come out of
nowhere to be popular.

2.   In the last generation or so a number of what used to be exclusively
boy's names or nicknames have become common girl's names, e.g. Lee, Jamie, Kelly,
Kim, Taylor.  It seems to me (but I cannot prove this) that this trend caught
steam a little after the rise of feminism.  Cuase and effect?  Parents were
saying "equal opportunity for girls means allowing them a crack at boys' names"?

     What distinguishes names in this category from other boys' names?  That
these names were somewhat androgynous to begin with, unlike names such as
Joseph, Henry, Julius, or Thomas, which are nailed down as masculine names by
appearing, repectively, in the Bible, as Kings of England, in Classical tradition,
or in the Saints' Calendar.

3.  At one time a number of surnames became first names.  Think of Robinson
Crusoe, for an early example.  Others include Jefferson Davis, Douglas
MacArthur, and Bruce Willis.  (Note: in some cases these "first" names are actually
middle names used by people who dislike their first names, e.g. John Calvin
Coolidge.)

Nowadays there is a minor trend for English and Celtic surnames to become
girl's first names, e.g. the Hollywood actresses Glenn Close, Brooke Shields,
MacKenzie Phillips, and Morgan Fairchild.  (caveat on the last example:  "Morgan"
is well-established as a girl's name from the Arthurian legends---Arthur's
sister was Morgan le Fay.)

Some names fit two of these trends, some (e.g. "Kelly") all three.

What about "Madison"?
1.  It sounds Irish (I don't know if it is)
2.  It is reasonably androgynous, never having been firmly established as a
male-only name.
3.  It is a British-sounding surname.

Hence "Madison" was waiting around to become a fashionable girl's name.  "The
Bridges of Madison County" or whatever was the precipitating event, but the
underlying reason was the trends cited above.

End of diagnosis.

This does not explain the popularity of "Grace", which is neither
Celtic-sounding, androgynous, nor a common surname.  I doubt that people thinking Celtic
names happened to think of "Amazing Grace", which is a very popular song in
Scotland.

         - Jim Landau (unfashionably East European)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 16:56:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:56:13 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040325111616.02d11c30@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

>>Quibbles are fine. My degree's in History, so I only know what the
>>dictionaries tell me. And in this instance the word wasn't in the
>>OED and AHD4, RH and M-W all had something different. Random House
>>said it was from Greek iota. M-W said it was "perhaps alteration of
>>Italian otto eight" and AHD4 said it was an
>>Alteration of octo– " which lead to looking up octo which has
>>"Greek okta-, okt- Latin octo-" and "Greek okta-, okt-, okt- (from
>>okt) & Latin octo-, oct-, from octo ." So is it safe to say they're
>>"related by derivation, borrowing, or descent."

Sorry; the scope of my quibbling was restricted to the very minor
aside within your response to your colleague that contained the
assertion that "I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
Greek for eight"; I was pointing out that (as far as I can tell) it
doesn't, and that Lat. _octo_ and Greek _okto_ are sisters, rather
than the former being the daughter of the latter.  I wasn't saying
anything at all about _yotta_, with which I remain agnostic.  I know,
this is probably striking others on the list as just a lotta "yotta
yotta yotta".

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 18:25:10 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:25:10 -0500
Subject: In defense of journalists
In-Reply-To: <200403251650.i2PGokbF008212@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> Fred's comments are a little unfair. True, many journalists are
> sloppy or ill informed, but in my experience the majority are smart
> professionals who make an honest effort to get their facts straight.
> It isn't easy to do justice to an unfamiliar subject when you're
> working under deadline -- not many linguists would be able to knock
> out 800 words on recent developments in string theory for tomorrow's
> early edition. And you could point to some very good coverage of
> language issues in the NY Times in particular, for example in
> articles by Michael Erard, Margolit Fox, and Nicholas Wade. If these

Much of my experience with journalists is with major national newspapers,
particularly the New York Times, but I have also dealt with smaller
papers.  I find that the biggest problems are with the major national
newspapers, particularly the New York Times.  I have dealt with some
really smart, insightful journalists at the Times, but also with some who
were very difficult.  I think the reason why major national newspapers,
particularly the Times, can be difficult to deal with is that they are
much more arrogant than journalists at smaller papers, much more likely to
think they know more than the subject of the article does.  As for the
Times having all kinds of fact checkers and copy editors, this may
actually foster errors because the fact checkers and copy editors are
misguidedly convinced they know best.  Even William Safire, the paper's
language maven, has to have his linguistic assertions edited by others who
may know a lot less than him about the point in question.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:28:14 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:28:14 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
 writes:

>We finally
> got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
> daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
> the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
> and up to number 10 in the 90's.

We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
Megan. I have no idea where it came from.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From SalLmns at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 19:12:19 2004
From: SalLmns at AOL.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:12:19 EST
Subject: In defense of journalists
Message-ID: 

Although I haven't written in a very long time, this subject is close to my
heart. I am a graduate of Columbia's J-School. I know the rigors of both
graduate school and television news. When working for a book publisher, I also had
the experience of dealing with a local reporter who was very eager to make her
mark by creating a sensational aspect to a story from her own imagination.
>From my perspective, all you can hope for is getting the facts straight. That
isn't always easy and it can be an evolving process. The pressure to be seen as a
singular talent propels people in directions they should not go and is often
a mark of the inexperienced. Perhaps arrogance has different hues or, in the
case of the NYT, different bow ties. I'll follow this thread with some interest.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 19:38:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:38:42 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <20040325.142414.-197653.0.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
> writes:
>
>>We finally
>>  got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
>>  daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
>>  the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
>>  and up to number 10 in the 90's.
>
>We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
>had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
>We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
>influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
>unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
>Megan. I have no idea where it came from.
>
Well, our daughter was born in 1984 and we spent a lot of time
leafing through a number of those what-shall-we-name-the-baby books
in search of the right M- name.  We settled on Meryl, partly because
it was so uncommon. (Two years earlier, we'd named our son David,
thereby instantiating the typical pattern of choosing more frequently
chosen names for sons than daughters.)  The only Meryl we knew of at
the time was Streep, but we didn't choose the name in her honor.
Since then, the name (for better or worse) has remained quite
uncommon and appears on none of those Social Security lists (nor has
it been duplicated on any class lists).  One price for this
uniqueness has been her having to respond to a lot more "how do you
spell that" questions than David has.

Larry Horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 25 20:00:01 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:00:01 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <557324AE-7E45-11D8-ADFB-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 25, 2004, at 2:15 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she didn't name the child
> after anyone or anything.
>
> Since reading of the name's popularity some time ago, I have
> encountered many other Madisons, and their parents, and as far as I can
> remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name from the air, that
> they didn't borrow it from a television or movie character, an actress,
> a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or anything specific.
> "Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been washed ashore by
> the zei[t]geist.

the current authority on this topic is the fascinating:

Lieberson, Stanley. 2000. A matter of taste: How names, fashions, and
culture change. New Haven CT: Yale Univ. Press.

[deliciously, lieberson is the Abbott Lawrence Lowell Professor of
Sociology at Harvard.]

lieberson points out that though there are social explanations for some
name fashions, there is a general "ratchet effect" in which names that
happen to get chosen build in popularity year by year (and then crash,
because they've become "too popular"), and other internal effects,
including favored phonology.

but there's a lot that doesn't have a deep explanation.

arnold, who has a three-week-old granddaughter named
   opal eleanor armstrong zwicky


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 25 20:07:52 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:07:52 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

"Megan" is also variously spelled, I've noticed, sometimes with an 'h' (as
Meghan) and sometimes not.  I don't know if there's a correlation with the
tendency to lax the front vowel or not, but I always have to ask my
students, "Do you say [meg at n] or [mEg at n]?"  And then I have to explain why
I asked the question, which leads into phonetics and a nice lesson on IPA.

At 02:38 PM 3/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>>On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
>> writes:
>>
>>>We finally
>>>  got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
>>>  daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
>>>  the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
>>>  and up to number 10 in the 90's.
>>
>>We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
>>had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
>>We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
>>influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
>>unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
>>Megan. I have no idea where it came from.
>Well, our daughter was born in 1984 and we spent a lot of time
>leafing through a number of those what-shall-we-name-the-baby books
>in search of the right M- name.  We settled on Meryl, partly because
>it was so uncommon. (Two years earlier, we'd named our son David,
>thereby instantiating the typical pattern of choosing more frequently
>chosen names for sons than daughters.)  The only Meryl we knew of at
>the time was Streep, but we didn't choose the name in her honor.
>Since then, the name (for better or worse) has remained quite
>uncommon and appears on none of those Social Security lists (nor has
>it been duplicated on any class lists).  One price for this
>uniqueness has been her having to respond to a lot more "how do you
>spell that" questions than David has.
>
>Larry Horn


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Mar 26 00:27:22 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:27:22 -0800
Subject: In defense of journalists
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My conclusion after watching tales of "Windy City" and other tales promulgated
by newspapers is that journalism is not designed to report facts.

Journalism reports on events, not facts. Journalists almost never conduct
research themselves, they simply ask "experts" to tell them what the facts
are--when was the last time you saw a newspaper article that did not contain at
least one quote? Journalists are good at determining what went on in a White
House policy meeting or happened at a crime scene, for example, because witness
testimony is the only source of information for such events. But for
information on empirically derived facts, they are only as good as their
source. For every Jesse Sheidlower or Fred Shapiro, there are a dozen yahoos
who don't know what they are talking about. Arguments from authority are
recognized as one of the fallacies of logic and debate, yet that is all that
newspapers ever do.

Add to this that almost no newspaper ever issues a correction for errors of
fact. They only correct misquotations and misidentifications. So, Fred Shapiro
can expect the Times will issue a correction if he complains, but Barry Popik
can yell until he is blue in the face and the paper will never correct a story
about "Windy City."

Because of the above, newspapers and journalists are appallingly bad sources of
information. They are rife with errors. In the case of reporting on events,
newspapers are usually the best we've got. But for general knowledge, they are
abyssmally bad.

As to the misidentification of Fred Shapiro in the Times, this is inexcusable.
But I reserve judgement on the reporter until I know the track record. Everyone
makes the occasional appallingly bad error. It is the frequency that is
important.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 02:35:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:35:53 -0500
Subject: "Texas Butter" & "Narrow at the Equator;" SALLIE LEMONS!
Message-ID: 

OT:  SALLIE LEMONS!

Although I haven't written in a very long time, this subject is close to my
heart.
--Sallie Lemons on ADS-L, 25 March 2004

   Welcome back!  Sallie Lemons!
   You've missed a lot.  The biggest thing has to be my marriage to Jennifer Lopez on the David Letterman show, right at "Big Apple Corner."  I invited everybody here.  Letterman really impressed the DARE people with his Indiana dialect; he's even decided to donate money to the DARE project.  I wish Sheidlower would quit calling us "Barrifer," though.
   The Chicago Historical Society finally admitted that "Windy City" doesn't come from the 1893 World's Fair.  That was bound to happen sooner or later.
   I quit doing parking tickets ten hours a day, five days a week in the room with no air and the Bronx building with no fire exits.  Did you see my food dictionary on the web?

---------------------------------------------------------------
TEXAS BUTTER & NARROW AT THE EQUATOR

TALK LIKE A COWBOY:
A DICTIONARY OF REAL WESTERN LINGO FOR YOUNG COWBOYS AND COWGIRLS
by Elizabeth Feagles
San Antonio, Texas: The Naylor Company
1955

   David Shulman was going through this small book.  It has a chapter on food.

Pg. 34:  CHUCK WAGON
Pg. 37:  ...a LARRUPIN' (mighty good) meal.
Pg. 37:  SOURDOUGH:  Cowboy's bread.
Pg. 38:  SOWBELLY:  Salt pork.
Pg. 39:  FRIJOLES:  Mexican dried beans.
Pg. 39:  JERKY:  Dried beef.
Pg. 40:  TEXAS BUTTER:  Gravy.  A cowboy can't CHAMBER A MEAL (eat) without gravy to dip his biscuit or his chunk of bread into.  Traditional cowboy gravy us made like this: the cook fries the dinner meat, takes it out of the skillet, then throws a handful of flour into the sizzling meat drippings.  After the flour has browned and the meat particles have been scraped up from the sides, he adds water, stirs again--and there it is, Texas butter.
   SINKERS:  Biscuits.
   WITH A BRIGHT EYE:  Fried egg, right side up.
   HUCKYDUMMY:  Raisin bread.
Pg. 41:  LICK:  Molasses.
Pg. 41:  HEN-FRUIT STIR:
   SPLATTER DABS:  These are both fun-names for pancakes.
Pg. 41:  SEA-PLUM:  Oysters.
Pg. 41:  FLUFF-DUFFS:  Fancy food not found on a chuck wagon.  Fluff-duffs include all manner of "lady-cooking" as well as unavailable luxuries.  It might mean the 3-layer cake (Pg. 42--ed.) some girl friend bakes for you or the homemade agarita (wild currant) jelly that the ranch owner's wife put up.  Also called THROAT-TICKLING GRUB.
   CHUCK:
   GRUB:
   MUCK-A-MUCK:
   BAIT:  Different words for plain, ordinary food.
   BREAD SACK:  Stomach.  What the cowboy wants to fill.
   STAKED TO A FILL:  When a cowboy has eaten well, he figures he has been staked to a fill.
   HOLD THE CUT:  Wait.  This is a very unhappy thing when it is applied to eating.  For when a cowboy has to hold the cut at the FEED TROUGH (dinner table), he's PLUMB RILED (angry).
   NARROW AT THE EQUATOR:  Hungry.
   SPANISH SUPPER:  Tighten your belt and eat nothing.  Sometimes a (Pg. 43--ed.) cowboy gets so far out on the range he can't make it into the ranch for supper; or perhaps he's taken grub with him and it has played out.  Then he just tightens his belt another notch and keeps on riding.  This is about as bad a thing as can happen to a hard-riding, tired and hungry man.
   GRUB PILE!:
   COME AND GET IT!:  These are the cook's calls to food, particularly when the outfit is on the home ranch, and he's yelling to the sleeping men.
   FLY AT IT!:  This is what the cook tells the boys when they're all gathered around and the food is ready to eat.


   I checked a few of these through Newspaperarchive.com and Google.  There aren't many cowboys left out there.


   FLUFF DUFFS

FLUFF DUFFS--7 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
FLUFF DUFF--15 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

Atchison Daily Globe - 2/21/1945
...thief's special, icut straw and molasses, FLUFF -DUFFS land so on and so on.. ,j from..
Atchison, Kansas   Wednesday, February 21, 1945  784 k


   HUCKYDUMMY

HUCKYDUMMY--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits


   TEXAS BUTTER

TEXAS BUTTER--96 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits

Atchison Daily Globe - 2/21/1945
...Mr. Adams makes some reference to "TEXAS BUTTER." And just what is TEXAS BUTTER? If is.....of "Charlie Taylor." It's also an oldtime -TEXAS cowboy food. But I know what it is. It.....s a Brairie substitute for BUTTER. A mix-K there s also 'Have een Third..
Atchison, Kansas   Wednesday, February 21, 1945  784 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 7/2/1955
...may be "black or "long sweetnin'." "TEXAS BUTTER" or "immigrant BUTTER" doesn't consist.....of BUTTER in the least. Instead its made from

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 7/2/1955
...may be "black or "long sweetnin'." "TEXAS BUTTER" or "immigrant BUTTER" doesn't consist.....of BUTTER in the least Instead Its made from..
Great Bend, Kansas   Saturday, July 02, 1955  668 k


   NARROW AT THE EQUATOR

   This seems to be gay slang, not cowboy slang.

NARROW AT THE EQUATOR--76 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE)
Corpus Christi Coastal Bend South Texas news, information, events ...
... A cowboy in high spirits had his tail over the dashboard. A hungry cowboy
was narrow at the equator. A tough customer was known as a curly wolf. ...
www.caller.com/ccct/opinion_columnists/article/ 0,1641,CCCT_843_2230308,00.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Wizard's GAY SLANG DICTIONARY N
... [Submitted from,Wei Lee, Dictionary of Gay Slang]. narrow at the equator:
having a small "package" [Submitted from,Wei Lee, Dictionary of Gay Slang]. ...
www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19n.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

February Literature Connections
... Expressions: grub pile. bread sack. narrow at the equator. splatter dabs. sinkers.
Texas butter. side winder. frog sticker. wipes. hoosegow. leaving Cheyenne. Meanings: ...
teacher.scholastic.com/lessonrepro/ lessonplans/litcofeb.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Matt & Andrej Koymasky - Gay Slang - N
... NAMES PROJECT, NANCE, NANCY (BOY), NANTEY or NANTI. NAPKIN RING, NARC or NARK,
NARROW AT THE EQUATOR, NATURAL BREECH. NATURE'S SCYTHE, NAVAL COMBER, NAVY STYLE,
ND. ...
andrejkoymasky.com/lou/dic/n.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

gay massage - gaydays orlando - Need funny nude pictures or real ...
gay massage - Get knob polisher and narrow at the equator with no
cost, and additional massive cock sex with meg. Searching for ...
www.camcum.com/gay_massage_63.htm - 6k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


   SPANISH SUPPER

   I couldn't find anything with this definition.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 04:14:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:14:37 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards (New York Clipper)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/23/2004 3:00:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> Folks:
>
> I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:
>
> --For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.   Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or even baseball. On down the line.
> --I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.
>
> The best that the OED can do is 1869, from Mark Twain, and the entry doesn't include a definition.  The Dictionary of American English had also cited the Twain, and another passage (from the late 1880s as I recall) that included a definition; this defining quotation is omitted by OED.   HDAS doesn't give this sense at all.  And I don't see any other sense of the word "English" in OED that could be used to explain the
> billiards sense.

   The 1869 Mark Twian citation is on WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION.  There's nothing earlier in that database (that goes to 1851).  I didn't see anything on the AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE, or MAKING OF AMERICA.
   I took out several billiards books in the New York Public Library, but didn't see "English" anywhere.
   So I went to NYU and tried looking through the NEW YORK CLIPPER.  The CLIPPER, unlike the SPORTING NEWS, has _not_ been digitized.  Don't know why; it was the VARIETY plus SPORTING NEWS for the 19th century.  The CLIPPER had a billiard column in each issue.
   This slangy poem has no "English" in it:

   27 July 1867, NEW YORK CLIPPER, pg. 121, col. 1:
      BILLIARDS.
WRITTEN FOR THE NEW YORK CLIPPER.
Billiards is gamest of all games,
   And, 'tis a funny thing,
We say to friends, with truth, we count,
   And get them "on a string."
And what we think is queerer yet,
   We do upon our honor,
We never leave the table, still
   We get "around the corner."

'Tis never dry, the darling game!
   Who says so is a fool;
For should it signs of that but show
   Then wet it, make it "pool."
To say it's dull is nonsense pure,
   Why it our wits anoints,
For every time we play the game
   We're sure to make good "points."

Another thing the oddest is
   You'll find beneath the sun,
Tho' you stand still and play your game
   You're sure to "make a run."
And odder still; though 'tis a game
   That's played in large amount,
It is the only game of all
   On which there's much "discount."

It makes us of perception quick,
   A thing possessed by few;
For, as you know, the billiardist
   Does always "take a cue."
And billiards is a loving game--
   The balls themselves show this,
By giving right before your eyes
   Each other, oft, "a kiss."

May it glide 'long for years, 'gainst its
   Course be raised not a ridge;
But should there be, may it then go
   Over it on its "bridge."
May friends of it live long, and may
   Their lifetime not be marred,
And when death tries to shove them off,
   Oh may that "shove be barred!"


   I don't know what this "saving of English" means, but it's the best I've got through the end of 1867.

   5 October 1867, NEW YORK CLIPPER, pg. 20, col. 3:
   ...Dion received from Nelms a note, which, without vouchsafing a solitary explanation, conveyed the unpleasant intelligence that he would not be in Montreal on the 24th, nor, worst of all, on the 25th either.  This note which, as we learn, Dion has, in commemoration of the foolscap episode of his schoolboy days, seen fit to frame and hang up in his billiard room, contained the following rare "saving of English:"--"Joseph Dion--_Dear Sir:_ I cannot play the match.  Respectfully, E. H. Nelms."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 08:02:46 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:02:46 EST
Subject: History lived forward,
 written backward; Two chances: slim and none
Message-ID: 

HISTORY IS LIVED FORWARD AND WRITTEN BACKWARD
  
HISTORY + LIVED FORWARD + BACKWARDS--250 Google hits, 231 Google Groups hits
HISTORY + LIVE FORWARD + BACKWARD--365 Google hits, 22 Google Groups hits
    
   "Mr. Chairman, we all know that history is lived forward and written 
backward" said Madeleine Albright at the 9-11 Commission Hearings on Tuesday.
   THE DAILY SHOW's Jon Stewart thought about this last night.  "I think 
that's Hebrew!" he said.
   The phrase is sometimes "written backward(s)" or "read backward(s)" or 
"understood backward(s)" or "examined backward(s)."  Sometimes "forward" is first 
and other times "backward(s)" is first.
   Sometimes it's credited to Dame C. Veronica Wedgwood and somes it's 
credited to Soren Kierkegaard.
    Fred Shapiro will surely sort this out.  
  
   
(WWW.QUESTIA.COM)
The Two Koreas: A Contemporary History  
Book by Don Oberdorfer; Addison-Wesley, 1997    
Subjects:   Korea (South)--History--1960-1988, Korea (South)--History--1988-, 
Korea (North)--History  
...in my earlier works, I was inspired by a quotation from Dame C. Veronica 
Wedgwood, a British historian -- "History is written backward but lived 
forward. Those who know the end of the story can never know what it was like at the 
time." What follows...    
    
Divine Violence: Spectacle, Psychosexuality & Radical Christianity in the 
Argentine "Dirty War"   
Book by Frank Graziano; Westview Press, 1992    
Subjects:   State-Sponsored Terrorism--Argentina--History--20th Century, 
Violence--Argentina--History--20th Century, Torture--Argentina--History--20th 
Century, Social Psychology--Argentina, Argentina--Politics And 
Government--1955-1983   
...Chapters 2 through 5) that manifests and constitutes it as "a language in 
the process of formation." 7 1. History is lived forward but read backward . 
What the actors in any given historical sequence live as an "open work" 
characterized by... 
      
  
(WWW.GOOGLE.COM)
Don Oberdorfer on The Paula Gordon Show
... Oberdorfer bows to renowned British historian Dame Veronica Wedgewood
who said, “History is written backward but lived forward. ... 
www.paulagordon.com/shows/oberdorfer/ - 16k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
Pioneer Press | 03/25/2004 | 9/11 COMMISSION: Panel provides ...
... Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said it best in her 
testimony before
the 9/11 commission Tuesday: History is lived forward and written backward. 
... 
www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/ news/editorial/8267287.htm - 38k - Mar 
25, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
  
As Various As Their Land: The Everyday Lives of Eighteenth-Century ...
... Using the Revolutionary War as an example, the author points out that: 
"...while
history is written backward, it is lived forward, and for the people who ... 
www.literaturehistoryhub.com/ 
As_Various_As_Their_Land_The_Everyday_Lives_of_EighteenthCentury_Americans_1... - 19k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
freedomforum.org: Opening address: 'History denied: restricting ...
... assassinated. Nixon didn’t know he would have to resign. It has always
been said that history is lived forward and written backward. I ... 
www.freedomfor  
  
Statement of Richard Reeves on Presidential Records
... assassinated. Nixon didn't know he would have to resign. It has always
been said that history is lived forward and written backward. With ... 
www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/041102reeves.html - 20k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
CNN.com - Transcripts
... this. Stay with us. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALBRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, we all
know that history is lived forward and written backward. What ... 
edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0403/23/i_ins.01.html - 43k - Mar 25, 2004 - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
canadiancomment
... .. Mr Chairman, we all know that history is lived forward and written 
backward.
Much seems obvious now that was less clear prior to 11 September. ... 
canadiancomment.no-ip.com/ - 91k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 

  
(GOOGLE)
algfront
... FIDUCIARIES, MEASURES, OPTIMIZATION, TOPOLOGY, HISTORY, LIFE, & ... Life 
can only be
understood backwards, but must be lived forward ," Sören Kierkegaard. ... 
Description: A personal view of algebra and its relationship to economics.
Category: Science > Math > Algebra > High School
members.fortunecity.com/jonhays/algfront.htm - 9k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - 
Similar pages 

Looking Backwards: Rosemary Passantino's paper
Looking backwards: Human memories in hypertexts. ... Graham sees the angel of 
history
propelled into the ... Kiekegaard agreed - "life is lived forward, but 
understood ... 
www.wordcircuits.com/htww/passantino.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
Athabasca University offers a variety of undergraduate History ...
... perhaps, you should consider taking history because the ... Kierkegaard, 
if life must
be lived forward, it can only be comprehended backwards, retrospectively. ... 



From:    Duane Campbell 

: We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a
: novel I had read several years before which took place in 19th century
: Ireland. We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop
: culture influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning
: what an unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were
: named Megan. I have no idea where it came from.

Of course, as those who study fashions and fads have found, this is
*exactly* the way fashions and fads work--people don't notice any
precipitating event (events, more likely), and think an idea is original to
them, but it's actually part of a larger fashion trend that's occurring.

Consider, for example, the "have a day" fad of the mid- to late-80s
(parodying the "have a nice day" smiling face, this one had a straight-line
mouth). Lots of my friends were convinced that *I* had invented that, and I
don't recall seeing it anywhere before I started decorating everything I
owned with it, but given the widespread commercial availability of the
design pretty quickly thereafter (I got given a keychain with it as part of
a birthday present--sadly, for a teenager, not including keys to a car--at
one point).

That fad presumably started somewhere, but it seems to have spread "under
the radar" in some way until it burst out into the open. Consider clothing
fashions, grooming trends, and even linguistic fads--postposed "NOT!", for
example, had apparently existed under people's active perception for at
least decades before Wayne's World brought it out for everyone to see.

Naming trends seem to follow the same pattern.

(Though if my younger daughter has multiple classmates named Hriana, I'll
buy a hat so that I can eat it.)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Fri Mar 26 15:05:25 2004
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:05:25 -0600
Subject: FW: 17.737 new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
Message-ID: 

Not exactly American dialect, but likely useful nonetheless. --ccr

         Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:43:10 +0000
         From: Willard McCarty 
         Subject: low-life online

Many here will share my joy at discovering, thanks to a colleague here, The
Proceedings of the Old Bailey London 1674-1834,
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/, "A fully searchable online edition of the
largest body of texts detailing the lives of non-elite people ever
published, containing accounts of over 100,000 criminal trials held at
London's central criminal court." Truly a treasure-trove of misery.

Yours,
WM


Dr Willard McCarty | Senior Lecturer | Centre for Computing in the
Humanities | King's College London | Strand | London WC2R 2LS || +44 (0)20
7848-2784 fax: -2980 || willard.mccarty at kcl.ac.uk
www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar 26 21:32:37 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:32:37 -0800
Subject: demotic adjectives
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

to the list of nouns directly converted to adjectives, either via
predicative or compound-noun uses, add "punk", as in
   how punk are you?
   no matter how punk you pretend to be...
   that's so punk

not nearly as interesting as "w(h)ack", of course.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 26 23:21:24 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:21:24 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

In the early '70s, WRC-TV in Washington, DC. interviewed me at some length for the local evening news.  I was referred to as "Sean Fitzgerald".

I immediately formulated this law:  "In any news story about which you have personal knowledge or direct experience, you will find errors".  I would call it Fitzger...Fitzpatrick's Law, but a few years later I read of a journalist who had already formulated the same observation.   For some reason it has not been enshrined in the Journalism Hall of Fame. 


Seán Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 26 23:38:06 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:38:06 -0500
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
Message-ID: 

I just received an e-mail signed by "Jelmar Evenhuis" and "Wilbert Heeringa" of the "Humanities Computing" department of the University of Groningen.  The e-mail invites me to visit http://www.let.rug.nl/perception, listen to 11 recordings of different languages and dialects, and rate the distance of the varieties with respect to mother tongue.

Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities Computing department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.


Seán Fitzpatrick
Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Mar 27 00:44:58 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:44:58 -0800
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
In-Reply-To: <005801c4138d$e0b7e0c0$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: 

I got the same message and took the survey.  It was kinda fun.

You can find Heeringa's home page at:



I got there via a link from the U. of Groningen's web site.

He's been employed at the university since 1998 and there's a notice of the
awarding of his doctorate in January of this year...

There are lots more links about him on the university web site.

Peter

--On Friday, March 26, 2004 6:38 PM -0500 Sean Fitzpatrick
 wrote:

> I just received an e-mail signed by "Jelmar Evenhuis" and "Wilbert
> Heeringa" of the "Humanities Computing" department of the University of
> Groningen.  The e-mail invites me to visit
> http://www.let.rug.nl/perception, listen to 11 recordings of different
> languages and dialects, and rate the distance of the varieties with
> respect to mother tongue.
>
> Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities Computing
> department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.
>
>
> Seán Fitzpatrick
> Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
> http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 05:24:48 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:24:48 EST
Subject: Walk and Chew Gum (1966); So Old School...; Tom Fuller (1900)
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM

   Our earliest "walk and chew gum," when discussed about a month ago, was
this:


Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has:

1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr.  The office wit says he'llnever
take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't
even walk and chew gum at the same time.

It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably
dates from before 1967.

Fred Shapiro


   I re-checked.

 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 1/20/1966
...so un-coordinated that he couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same By Victor
Biesel Strike.....Lud is also one of the fastest moving cloak-AND-dagger
legislators on Capito Hill AND.....member of Congress who is on House Banking AND
Currency Committee AND urge his support.....terms of time lost from work,
wages lost, AND the cost of treating the disease AND its..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 20, 1966  717 k

Lethbridge Herald - 4/8/1967
...uncoordinated that she can't even WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same fcse he
also says his.....than you can say Toe Bleke is a bubble GUM addict is bound to
have a rather.....12 goals AND 26 assists in 53 games, AND Red Kelly 38
points, 14 goals AND 24.....of seven one-over-par holes, ex birdies AND five pars
for. a 73 AND a 36-hole score..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 08, 1967  849 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/23/1966
...so muscular "he'd have trouble WALKING AND CHEWING GUM at the same time.
He'd just as.....football, basketball, wrestl, track, golf AND baseGiese. the
son of Mr. AND Mrs.....For1 that the good athlete is a lousy tune AND Dave
Prutz. Both Mosey AND Fortune.....gwsts was the appearance of of ANDerson AND
GraGreen Bay Packer tackle AND bowski in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, May 23, 1966  706 k

Daily Times - 12/29/1966
...I was so uncordinated I couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same time."
Mamie Van Doren.....the fielder led the AL in batting, homers AND RBI's, AND won
the MVP award: "Robinson.....there. The Spartans, who were the shakes, AND in
Kenmore, scored 24 points AND beaten.....performed by Nicholas. Charles 0.
Finley "AND he's just so kind to my wife AND ed fie A..
Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, December 29, 1966  591 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO OLD SCHOOL...

   This was in Friday's NEW YORK POST.  There are many Google hits, but not
for the POST's "old old school" joke.


(GOOGLE and WWW.NYPOST.COM)
New York Post Online Edition: sports
... He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To steal a line, he was
so
old school that they knocked down his school to build the old school. ...
www.nypost.com/sports/16098.htm - 22k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

* Lenny Lewin, who covered sports for The Post for 30 years, died Monday at
87. Lewin was old school. He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To
steal a line, he was so old school that they knocked down his school to build
the old school.


(GOOGLE)
U-Daily News - MUSIC
... Fittingly, in a year sporting an appearance by Little Richard ("I'm so
old school
the building wasn't even there yet'), SXSW '04 seemed to be about history ...

u.dailynews.com/ Stories/0,1413,211~23540~2038746,00.html - 40k - Mar 26,
2004 - Cached - Similar pages

hewlett's daughter: sara hebert
*2004-03-25 *5:57 pm *i'm so old school, they tore the school down.
i can flow. i can freak. i can freak and flow at the same time. ...
mariogirl.diaryland.com/ - 13k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Quotes
... the Wizard explains chaff "You're so old school, the school wasn't even
built..."
Joe explains Ray Please feel free to send me something to post.
home.cogeco.ca/~grizzlyrafting/quotes.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOM FULLER

   I don't know what DARE or the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK will have for "Tom Fuller."  John Mariani has an entry in his ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Newspaperarchive wasn't too helpful.  I tried "Tom Fuller," "Thomas
Fuller," and "Tom Fulla."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Review - 9/9/1900
...bins on the -mtimi. You must eat'some 'TOM FULLER' before you go away or
they will.....mam met him. Colonel Bai-tlett fish -as TOM Pointing talks Hcrel"
mis or W. Brcnncman.....easier way uf obtaining 'them. The low but'TOM.s of
the Illinois overllow every and when.....he grounds will be n Wg kettle where
t'he 'TOM. iP.uller' 13 made. This is something..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, September 09, 1900  769 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 05:40:39 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:40:39 EST
Subject: Walk and Chew Gum (1965?); So Old School...; Tom Fuller (1900)
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM

   Our earliest "walk and chew gum," when discussed about a month ago, was
this:


Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has:

1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr.  The office wit says he'llnever
take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't
even walk and chew gum at the same time.

It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably
dates from before 1967.

Fred Shapiro


   I re-checked.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News - 9/30/1965
...that he can't chew hisTornado offense? GUM AND WALK at the same; The only
similarity.....Gilliam had opened the inning with a WALK AND took second on a
ground out. Maloney.....six innings AND yielded all five runs AND six hits. He
WALKed seven AND fanned only.....for second-place had1 "We're in our worst
AND only money. The Dodgers are in AND were..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, September 30, 1965  838 k

Times Recorder - 1/20/1966
...so un-coordinated that he couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same By Victor
Biesel Strike.....Lud is also one of the fastest moving cloak-AND-dagger
legislators on Capito Hill AND.....member of Congress who is on House Banking AND
Currency Committee AND urge his support.....terms of time lost from work,
wages lost, AND the cost of treating the disease AND its..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 20, 1966  717 k

Lethbridge Herald - 4/8/1967
...uncoordinated that she can't even WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same fcse he
also says his.....than you can say Toe Bleke is a bubble GUM addict is bound to
have a rather.....12 goals AND 26 assists in 53 games, AND Red Kelly 38
points, 14 goals AND 24.....of seven one-over-par holes, ex birdies AND five pars
for. a 73 AND a 36-hole score..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 08, 1967  849 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/23/1966
...so muscular "he'd have trouble WALKING AND CHEWING GUM at the same time.
He'd just as.....football, basketball, wrestl, track, golf AND baseGiese. the
son of Mr. AND Mrs.....For1 that the good athlete is a lousy tune AND Dave
Prutz. Both Mosey AND Fortune.....gwsts was the appearance of of ANDerson AND
GraGreen Bay Packer tackle AND bowski in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, May 23, 1966  706 k

Daily Times - 12/29/1966
...I was so uncordinated I couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same time."
Mamie Van Doren.....the fielder led the AL in batting, homers AND RBI's, AND won
the MVP award: "Robinson.....there. The Spartans, who were the shakes, AND in
Kenmore, scored 24 points AND beaten.....performed by Nicholas. Charles 0.
Finley "AND he's just so kind to my wife AND ed fie A..
Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, December 29, 1966  591 k

Tri City Herald - 2/29/1968
...coach who once said 1 couldn't CHEW GUM AND WALK at the same time." At
Goddard's.....trembling, they were gotten up cautiously AND gradually. AND we
didn't realize that it.....helped by early ambulation. The patient is AND, as was
customary, he was sitting up, AND.....To adults it's going back, j To
teen-agers AND youngsters j it's like today. AND they're..
Pasco, Washington Thursday, February 29, 1968  540 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO OLD SCHOOL...

   This was in Friday's NEW YORK POST.  There are many Google hits, but not
for the POST's "old old school" joke.


(GOOGLE and WWW.NYPOST.COM)
New York Post Online Edition: sports
... He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To steal a line, he was
so
old school that they knocked down his school to build the old school. ...
www.nypost.com/sports/16098.htm - 22k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

* Lenny Lewin, who covered sports for The Post for 30 years, died Monday at
87. Lewin was old school. He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To
steal a line, he was so old school that they knocked down his school to build
the old school.


(GOOGLE)
U-Daily News - MUSIC
... Fittingly, in a year sporting an appearance by Little Richard ("I'm so
old school
the building wasn't even there yet'), SXSW '04 seemed to be about history ...

u.dailynews.com/ Stories/0,1413,211~23540~2038746,00.html - 40k - Mar 26,
2004 - Cached - Similar pages

hewlett's daughter: sara hebert
*2004-03-25 *5:57 pm *i'm so old school, they tore the school down.
i can flow. i can freak. i can freak and flow at the same time. ...
mariogirl.diaryland.com/ - 13k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Quotes
... the Wizard explains chaff "You're so old school, the school wasn't even
built..."
Joe explains Ray Please feel free to send me something to post.
home.cogeco.ca/~grizzlyrafting/quotes.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOM FULLER

   I don't know what DARE or the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK will have for "Tom Fuller."  John Mariani has an entry in his ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Newspaperarchive wasn't too helpful.  I tried "Tom Fuller," "Thomas
Fuller," and "Tom Fulla."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Review - 9/9/1900
...bins on the -mtimi. You must eat'some 'TOM FULLER' before you go away or
they will.....mam met him. Colonel Bai-tlett fish -as TOM Pointing talks Hcrel"
mis or W. Brcnncman.....easier way uf obtaining 'them. The low but'TOM.s of
the Illinois overllow every and when.....he grounds will be n Wg kettle where
t'he 'TOM. iP.uller' 13 made. This is something..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, September 09, 1900  769 k


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sat Mar 27 08:18:11 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:18:11 -0800
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
In-Reply-To: <200403262356.i2QNu2jB023674@mxu5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

FWIW It was also sent to a linguistic list I co-own without signing up. I
thought that was kind of rude...

The survey seemed hard to me. I thought the first one kind of like mine, but
it was awfully difficult to gauge in comparison to foreign language and
other countries' English dialects.

Benjamin Barrett

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Sean Fitzpatrick
>
>Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities
>Computing = department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.
>
>
>Se=E1n Fitzpatrick
>Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
>http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 08:40:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:40:07 EST
Subject: Waitress (1825); Food Myths at IACP conference
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME: Apologies for the double post.  Ignore
the first post.  I waited a half an hour and saw the first post didn't go
through, so I re-posted and added to it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WAITRESS

   Merriam-Webster and OED have 1834 for "waitress."
   All of the earliest Newspaperarchive.com cites are from the TIMES OF
LONDON.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times - 12/12/1825
...W one u COOK, tha other HOVSClilAf D and WAITRESS. Apply to II. Tovey.
Recent1, Armn..
London, Middlesex Monday, December 12, 1825  982 k

Times - 7/9/1827
...S CHAMBaTRHAin, Housvniaid, or WAITRESS, in town or amp; Wotoui with a
snnA..
London, Middlesex Monday, July 09, 1827  1100 k

Times - 9/30/1826
...wjrt MU o-ml apply. "_ ___ ___ ______ or WAITRESS, in a Tavern or A S
CHAMI 'Hotel..
London, Middlesex Saturday, September 30, 1826  965 k

Times - 4/25/1827
...St. _ AS CtiAMnKHMAin, Housemaid, or WAITRESS, a IjL specMhle yomin; Woman
who ron..
London, Middlesex Wednesday, April 25, 1827  1304 k

Times - 5/8/1827
...Ike business has no ob'iecllan to untlon as WAITRESS, or to assist la Ihe
bat. Direct to..
London, Middlesex Tuesday, May 08, 1827  1249 k

Times - 11/8/1827
...attended to. ANTED, a young Woman., as v T WAITRESS in a respectable
Chophouw. Nrmtneed..
London, Middlesex Thursday, November 08, 1827  983 k

Times - 5/16/1827
...10, Swallowstrect, Piccadilly. _______ A S WAITRESS in a Chophouse,
Eatinghouse, or.....Bogtn't, 84. SnowMll. S CiiAHDERifAin, or WAITRESS, in a
respectable Tavern or Hatel.ln..
London, Middlesex Wednesday, May 16, 1827  1195 k

Times - 7/31/1827
...by a rnpeeiable Woman, gt; T SIT C WAITRESS In a or EaTlnnhoysp tiMd lo
the..
London, Middlesex Tuesday, July 31, 1827  1070 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FOOD MYTHS

   Those interested in "food myths" might want to see this:

http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html
Both these follow on the heels of the International Association of Culinary
Professional's annual conference in Baltimore, where Greg Patent, Damon Fowler
and I are doing a panel on "Spotting Food History Myths." Informally, we
entitled it "It Ain't Necessarily So...." That old myth spotter Andy Smith promises
to be in the audience that day. We are going to take out the iced tea was
invented at the St. Louis Fair myth, the one about lobsters and slaves, boarders,
prisoners, apprentices, etc.; the Neiman Marcus cookie one, and maybe go
after Sally Lunn, that famous Bath baker who ran up and down the streets peddling
her famous buns (no, not those buns....).

http://www.iacp.com/events/national/4-24-04.html
_Spotting a Food Myth When You See It_
We know better than to believe that the earth is flat or that alligators
reside in New York City's sewers.  So why do we persist in believing that iced tea
was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair or that Catherine de Medici
brought French food to France from Florence?


   Ah, too bad I'm not on the program!
  (See ADS-L archives for "ice tea" and "iced tea" and "Neiman Marcus.")


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 13:52:27 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:52:27 EST
Subject: Some "laws"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:21:24 -0500,  Sean Fitzpatrick
 writes:

>  In the early '70s, WRC-TV in Washington, DC. interviewed me at some
>  length for the local evening news.  I was referred to as "Sean
Fitzgerald".
>
>  I immediately formulated this law:  "In any news story about which you
>  have personal knowledge or direct experience, you will find errors".  I
>  would call it Fitzger...Fitzpatrick's Law, but a few years later I read
>  of a journalist who had already formulated the same observation.   For
>  some reason it has not been enshrined in the Journalism Hall of Fame.

In mathematics there is

BOYER'S LAW appears in H. C. Kennedy, "Boyer's Law: Mathematical formulas and
theorems are usually not named after their original discoverers," Amer. Math.
Monthly, 79:1 (1972), 66-67.

Boyer's theorem is found in 1968 in History of Mathematics by Barnabas
Hughes.

(note to Fred Shapiro: Hughes is on the Historia Matematica list, should you
wish to contact him)

quoted from "Earliest Known Uses of Some of the Words of Mathematics (B) at
URL
http://members.aol.com/jeff570/b.html

A somewhat different "law"

Bill Lyon, "From Where the Hawks sit, the view is sweet indeed" _Philadelphia
Inquirer_ March 25, 2004, page H8 (this is the jump page for the article)
column 1


    Tip-off, as mandated by CBS-TV, which controls sports with the same cold
buy-and-sell ruthlessness of a street-corner pimp, is set for 9:57.  This
inviting time, by the way, almost automatically assures that the first game,
Pitt-Oklahoma State, will be, oh say, triple overtime.  (This is known as Koppett's
Law:  Whatever will invonvenience the greatest number is what will happen.
Ergo, the second game will be going on past the bewitching hour.)


I have never heard of "Koppett's Law" before, but some of you New Yorker
types may have, since I believe Koppett is a well-known New York sportswriter.
This quote is of course yet one more variation on Murphy's Law, and oddly is
closer to what I once read (in a long-forgotten source) was Murphy's original
version, something to the effect that "when something fail, it will fail in the
most disastrous way possible".

"bewitching hour"??

              - James A. Landau

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup

PS.  I don't know if it still be true, but in my father's generation
reporters were taught that misspelling a person's name was a mortal sin.  Newspaper
style books would include instructions such as to insert "(correct)" after an
unusual spelling of a name, e.g. "Peter Samson (correct)..."

If misspelling a name is such a sin, then what can we say about giving
someone the wrong surname...

Which brings up one more "law", actually a didactic proverb used to warn
reporters about mispelling names.  I have seen this stated once or twice, in
long-forgotten sources, but never with someone's name attached:

"The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew Brzezinski
but Jon Smythe"


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Sat Mar 27 14:23:21 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:23:21 -0600
Subject: Some "laws"
In-Reply-To: <200403271352.i2RDqe222863@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

James A. Landau wrote:
> "The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew Brzezinski
> but Jon Smythe"

Isn't it "Zbigniew"?

Jim Parish


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar 27 18:04:00 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:04:00 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403270504.i2R54t2f014396@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Clai Rice writes:

> Not exactly American dialect, but likely useful nonetheless. --ccr

Fear not. Your post is constitutionally relevant. From the ADS
Constitution (http://www.americandialect.org/about.html):

II. PURPOSE

The American Dialect Society is organized in the interest of the
academic community and not for profit. Its object is the study of the
English language in North America, together with other languages or
dialects of other languages influencing it or influenced by it.

And if the English of England hasn't "influenced" N.A.English, then I
don't know what the word means.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From funex79 at CHARTER.NET  Sat Mar 27 18:07:15 2004
From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:07:15 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

Linguists:

The following is from a recent BBC newsletter:


Today's quote for the day comes from rock hell-raiser Courtney Love: "My
daughter is an incredibly grounded, normal human being. She's not
growing up cussing and not knowing linguistics. She knows what a pronoun
is."


J Foster


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 18:14:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:14:21 EST
Subject: Like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat (1901);
 Sub screen doors
Message-ID: 

http://www.women-outdoors.com/traditional/country_sayings.htm

   A heaping helping of "Country Sayings" against Newspaperarchive.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
NO COW IN TEXAS?

   Ain't the pope Catholic?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 10/6/1932
...and if that's too much there ai'nt a COW IN TEXAS. Here's another thought
sixty.....reached his ears at times. Occasionally, as IN the street parade IN
Des .MoINes, there.....them. tho president .said at Des MoINes IN describINg
those acts as IN disregard of..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, October 06, 1932  918 k

Valley Independent - 5/11/1971
...Donner Ave, 684-9991 Monessen THERE ISN'T A COW IN TEXAS If Our Steaks
Aren't The BEST.....my composINg on the guitar and use it once IN a while IN a
performance although the.....audiences screamINg, jumpINg and clappINg IN unison
when they fINish their act IN order..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 11, 1971  870 k

News Journal - 5/31/1975
...sure to stay that way as long as there's a COW IN TEXAS. Two Ohio Schools
INvolved.....and brands IN a 200-acre spread down IN TEXAS. Nolan, of course,
is really just the.....4-45. LP Segui 3raun Lynn New Ill 002 5 9 TEXAS......
.020 203 9 .Vedich. Pagan Lyle (S.....matchmaker. These liaisons are not made
up IN bars near the ball park, but IN pastures..
Mansfield, Ohio Saturday, May 31, 1975  733 k

News Journal - 5/31/1977
...bear tracks IN the woods and there's a COW IN TEXAS. As a story, it's the
groom showINg.....A.J. Foyt is Clark Gable. As American as TEXAS. As direct as
a bust IN the nose.....to be out IN a 200-mile-an-hour traffic jam IN a heat
factor IN the cockpit of 115.....make little green apples and it does raIN IN
INdianapolis IN the summer time. And A.J..
Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, May 31, 1977  796 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CROOKED AS A DOG'S HIND LEG

   Not in OED.  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "late 19C+."
   Said of lawyers, for some reason.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Marion Daily Star - 6/28/1887
...milos in length, and crookeder than a DOG'S HIND LEG. Then again the same
street will..
Marion, Ohio   Tuesday, June 28, 1887  592 k

Delta Herald - 7/18/1884
...bent like hoop poles, or crooked as a DOG'S HIND LEG, or broken in sunder,
evidences of..
Delta, Pennsylvania   Friday, July 18, 1884  671

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COULD TALK A DOG OFF A MEAT WAGON

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Hornellsville Weekly Tribune - 6/27/1890
...down in the corner. It would drive A DOG OFF A meAt wAgon. JAmes Lowe
without Any..
Hornellsville, New York   Friday, June 27, 1890  880 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NEVER TEACH A PIG TO SING

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 1/28/1986
...messAges, such As: "Never try to TEACH A PIG to SING. It wAstes your time
And Annoys.....the PIG." Or "When All else fAils, lower your.....for the ungrA
teful." And most of us could SING Along to this shirt's messAge: "1 owe, I..
Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, January 28, 1986  400 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/17/1991
...mommA AlwAys told me: "Never try to TEACH A PIG to SING. You wAste your
time. It Annoys.....the PIG." BILL DONDLOE CedAr Grove Something..
Placerville, California Wednesday, July 17, 1991  648 k

Chronicle Telegram - 11/6/1998
...one of the old sAw About trying to TEACH A PIG to SING: It wAstes your
time And Annoys.....the PIG. School officiAls shouldn't come bAck..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, November 06, 1998  511 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LIKE A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT

BLIND MAN + DARK ROOM + BLACK CAT--634 Google hits, 1,730 Google Groups hits

   These are my chances after Slim left the building.
   Actually, the blind man can probably hear and smell, so his chances are
quite good at finding the cat (not that he'd know the color).
   "That isn't there" or "which isn't there" or "that/which is not there" is
often added to the end of this one.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Trenton Times - 2/6/1901
...Justice resembles a BLIND MAN seeking In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
Isn't there.....Ill-timed couiugeu "i aumjm services of a MAN who knows what
he puns which are going.....womnn of ability to remain in the school ROOM. '_
The teachers' begins early In the.....riices are the descendants of Shem. The
BLACK races are descendants of Ham. The most..
Trenton, New Jersey   Wednesday, February 06, 1901  683 k

Manitoba Free Press - 2/3/1922
...heen compared to a BLIND MAN groping In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
Isn't there.....of the CAT nor the DARKness of the ROOM would be n handicap to
n BLIND but.....tho white MAN's rule over the native BLACK MAN there. series
of brutal siys a writer In.....Significance of the Washington Achievement MAN
and peace and Tho cymes who tell the..
Winnipeg, Manitoba Friday, February 03, 1922  989 k

Lethbridge Herald - 6/12/1943
...ago defined metaphysics as a BLIND MAN in a DARK ROOM looking for a BLACK
CAT that isn't.....thing in the world is hunting for a BLACK CAT on a DARK
night when the BLACK CAT is not.....in of the Times the sentence: rough, bluff
MAN in the street long.....tor a blanket Is not best garment lor a MAN tnho
wants be jitter he done a..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, June 12, 1943  829 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 6/6/1941
...defined a pessimist as "a BLIND MAN in a DARK ROOM looking for a BLACK CAT
that isn't.....Hitler has sent his prize economic front MAN, Dr. Helmuth
Wohlthat, to Japan in order.....he was too young and inexperienced. FIND MAN'S
BODY New London, Wis. The body of.....Neale told the graduates. "The satisfied
MAN has reached his goal and has no other..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Friday, June 06, 1941  850 k

Sheboygan Daily Press - 12/6/1909
...of metaphysics, 'A BLIND MAN hunting In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
isn't there.1.....a dapper little shape In evening clothes, a MAN still young,
with a round BLACK head; if.....carries his ears. If ward, he may be partly
BLIND or deaf, or both. If the ears are.....both Mercer and Tracy were equally
In the DARK with himself as to Atkins' plans, Atkins..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, December 06, 1909  830 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORE CHINS THAN A CHINESE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY

MORE CHINS THAN A CHINESE--871 Google hits, 790 Google Groups hits

   That's fat.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News - 3/7/1957
...of Quincy, VTass., knows one who has MORE CHINS than a CHINESE phone
directory. (For.....Earl Wilson 15 Women 12-13 Hit In Lima Two MORE opposition
letters were fired at State.....heavy police guard. Weaver was followed by MORE
lan a score of shouting white men, most.....the fata ity loll in the county at
five MORE han at the same date last year; )ne of..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, March 07, 1957  1173 k

Daily Tribune - 7/9/1973
...into the hotel. She was fat. She had MORE CHINS than a CHINESE telephone
directory. I.....as government functionaries, they are MORE aware, MORE Thought
for today I love to.....else. When they get there, they are much MORE likely
to a as the saying would have it.....that is of doubtful legality and is even
MORE suspect ethically. Pike said in a floor..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Monday, July 09, 1973  722 k

Gleaner - 7/15/2002
...fame. Now my fame has spread. I have MORE CHINS than the CHINESE telephone
directory.....this is an area to which boys are naturally MORE inclined, and
therefore spend MORE time.....week's JAS annual general meeting promising MORE
legislation along with a timetable for.....have become better organised and
MORE sophisticated in the methods that they..
Kingston, Kingston Monday, July 15, 2002  516 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 7/14/1973
...into the hotel. She was fat. She had MORE CHINS than a CHINESE telephone
directory. I.....meltand mold the heavy metal. MOR HEAT The MORE heat which can
be produced, the MORE.....in Rome one summer, her shoes pinched her MORE than
the men did. She said she got calls.....on Magnetic Fields at UNR this week,
is MORE used to talking in complicated terms..
Reno, Nevada Saturday, July 14, 1973  733 k

Lethbridge Herald - 1/9/1984
...jeans, drinks Pepsi Heavy and has MORE CHINS than a CHINESE phone book.
Joan Rivers.....of television shows, and is booked for MORE. "I'm she says. "I
have always wanted to.....She has known pain, and fears poverty MORE than
death. Her mother was born in.....who has pioneered ways of doing less for MORE, is
happy with the arrangement. As Joan..
Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, January 09, 1984  531 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COULD STAND UNDER A CLOTHES LINE IN A RAIN STORM AND NOT GET WET

   That's skinny.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 7/16/1966
...I suspect he (Addison) could stAnd UNDER A CLOTHES LINE during A rAin
storm And not get.....through grAduAtion were in the offensive LINE. We hAve sever
Al willing people there.....through experience And in the offensive LINE And
the defensive bAckfield, two.....And Bill Gentry (E) heAd up our offensive LINE
. Pete SokAlsky (DE) And Dennis Byrd (DT..
Frederick, Maryland Saturday, July 16, 1966  716 k

News Journal - 10/19/1966
...A pipe deAner between gAmes. He could duck UNDER A CLOTHESLINE in A rA
mstorm. He's so.....Us AlmA mAter. He plAyed lor the WildcAts UNDER PAul "BeAr"
BryAnL The Kentucky post.....LSU -where he bAd been chief AssistAnt UNDER PAul
DietzeL The soft-spoken nAtive of..
Mansfield, Ohio Wednesday, October 19, 1966  708 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS

SUBMARINE + SCREEN DOORS--494 Google hits, 420 Google Groups hits

   Useless.  Not practical.
   Who started this one?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1970
...As much sense As the proverbiAl SCREEN DOOR ON A submArine. TO THEM, it me
Ans A girl.....Herbert Hoover Appointed her to serve ON A White House CON
ference ON Child HeAlth.....s A mAchine in ElyriA. it's in A neAt home ON Fifth
Street And it cAn tAke interested..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, January 04, 1970  703 k

Mountain Democrat - 5/14/1980
...is about as popular as a SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS WITH the rest of the
fire.....and treasurer took over. SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS? EDITOR: This
letter is in.....has been a while since writing an article WITH reference to El
Dorado Irrigation..
Placerville, California Wednesday, May 14, 1980  422 k

News - 4/27/1995
...thAt they Are About As effective As SCREEN DOORS IN A submArINe, surely
they constitute.....Their nAmes were prINted on the TV SCREEN beneAth the logo:
"BombINg IN OklAhomA.....to try. The INcumbent wAs the eAsiest shoe-IN IN 1994
IN Frederick County. Mr. Derr And.....only did the RepublicAns mAke greAt g
AINs IN the MArylAnd GenerAl Assembly IN lAst yeAr..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, April 27, 1995  553 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
IF "IFS AND BUTS" WERE CANDY AND NUTS, EVERY DAY WOULD BE CHRISTMAS

   Seems older than the below citations.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gettysburg Times - 9/14/1983
...line." he said. "If IFS AND BUTS wTere CANDY AND NUTS, we'd have a heck of
a.....looks at you AND wonders where the ball is AND vou kind of smile AND
say. "Gone." AND.....s the fun of it. when you throw the ball AND get knocked
down AND the guy.....But he became disenchanted with the midwest AND with the fro
nt-office meddling AND quit..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, September 14, 1983  942 k

Dominion Post - 1/29/2003
...a pause, Porter added, IFS AND BUTS were CANDY AND NUTS, every day would
be Christmas.....eating up two-thirds of the playing time AND Briggs performing
as a role player. AND.....16-3, 4-1) count losses at No. 2 Pittsburgh AND at
No. 7 Kentucky AND to No. 16 Creighton.....of driving. With Thomas at point
guard AND Carroll AND Miller, a senior transfer..
Morgantown, West Virginia   Wednesday, January 29, 2003  691 k

Capital - 9/13/1983
...Don Meredith he said. 'If IFS AND BUTS were CANDY AND NUTS, we'd have a
heck of a.....AND knocked down AND the guy looks at you AND wonders where the
ball is AND you kind of.....smile AND say, AND you hear him matter an
expletive.....But he became disenchanted with the midwest AND with the front-office
meddling AND quit..
Annapolis, Maryland Tuesday, September 13, 1983  774 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
REGGAE, TRAVELOG

   These came up on a search for "invented the word."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Appleton Post Crescent - 7/22/1958
...died today. Holmes, whose organization INVENTED THE WORD travelog, jspent
more than.....At THE time of THE contract delay, THE army turned down THE
appeal. THE.....it as THE pictures were being shown take THE edge off THE silence.
THE club decided to.....feelings in THE United States against THE Soviet
people. THE Soviet reply to THE..
Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 22, 1958  814 k

Gleaner - 3/8/1998
...CLAIM Contributed Ras'Cardo claims that he INVENTED THE WORD 'reggae'.
somewhat.....producer, says he has copyrighted THE WORD, 'reggae This he did at
THE United.....Do THE Reggae', but no one knew where THE WORD came from up
until THEn. According to.....in Latin. "So it just felt he said, "...THE music of
THE kings of THE street." Over..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, March 08, 1998  426 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 27 20:12:12 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:12:12 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403271804.i2RI42Vc029551@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> The American Dialect Society is organized in the interest of the
> academic community and not for profit. Its object is the study of the
> English language in North America, together with other languages or
> dialects of other languages influencing it or influenced by it.

Haven't pretty much all languages influenced North American English or
been influenced by it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar 27 20:21:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:21:26 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Haven't pretty much all languages influenced North American English or
>been influenced by it?

Pretty much. But caution: there is a lot of material on Nostratic looking
for a home ... not to mention Klingon ....

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Mar 27 22:51:50 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:51:50 -0500
Subject: in-migrant
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My impression is that both in- and out-migration (and -migrants) are used
regularly in sociological writing.  I don't recall where I picked it up.

Ber

At 08:55 AM 3/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Scripsit James Landau:
>
>         >>>
>Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?
>         <<<
>
>I don't remember seeing Ber///Bev's use of it, but I've seen it for many
>years referring to population movements between regions within a
>country, e.g., "The Black population of the Northern cities was swollen
>by a flood of in-migrants from the South". I assumed, and still suppose,
>that it was used instead of "immigrant" because the latter is used for
>people coming from abroad, not moving within the national boundaries.
>
>Ditto of course "in-migration", which I think I've actually seen more
>often than "in-migrant". And ISTM much less of "out-migrant/tion".
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 03:18:56 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:18:56 -0500
Subject: Grits ain't groceries (1965); "Blind man," "Candy & nuts" update
Message-ID: 

   Back at NYU with the better databases.

---------------------------------------------------------------
GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES

GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES--2,390 Google hits, 466 Google Groups hits

   Grits Ain't Groceries Lyrics (various web sites--ed.)
If I don't love you baby,
grits ain't groceries,
eggs ain't poultry,
and Mona Lisa was a man.


   It's a song title.  Life would be a bowl of cherries if I could find this food phrase before that.
   OT:  I read somewhere that "Mona Lisa" _was_ a man.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: George Jones' greatest hits.
Vol. II
Author(s): Jones, George, 1931-  (Performer - prf)
Publication: [S.l.] :; Mercury,
Year: 1960-1969?
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Music Type: Country music
Standard No: Publisher: MG-21048; Mercury; LCCN: 94-765751
Contents: Eskimo pie -- Money to burn -- Just one more -- Aching, breaking heart -- Wandering soul -- Big Harlan Taylor -- Seasons of my heart -- You're still on my mind -- If I don't love you (grits ain't groceries) -- When my heart hurts no more -- Cup of loneliness -- Tarnished angel.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Post Crescent - 6/8/1969
...Columbia CS Evil Ways (Willie' Bobc, Verve GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES (Little Milton, Checker.....Milton is one great blues singer, and "GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES" is one outstanding..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Sunday, June 08, 1969  267 k

Coshocton Tribune - 5/5/1975
...at a good pace. Among the highlights are "GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES (Broad St. "Grandma's..
Coshocton, Ohio   Monday, May 05, 1975  1355 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT/HAT THAT ISN'T THERE (continued)

   I tried "black cat" and "black hat."  I still can't beat 1901.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
Article 2 -- No Title
The Dial; a Semi - monthly Journal of Literary Criticism, Discussion, and Information (1880-1929). Chicago: May 1, 1908. Vol. Vol. XLIV., Iss. No. 525.; p. 263 (4 pages)
First Page:   ...--it is an old simile--as a blind man looking in a dark room for a black hat that is not in the room.

(JSTOR)
New Books
H. R. Mackintosh; H. Wildon Carr; W. L. Lorimer; James Lindsay; J. Laird; Helen Bosanquet; John Edgar; A. E. Taylor; W. L. M.; M.; W. D. Ross; A. Wolf; S. J. Chapman
Mind, New Series, Vol. 21, No. 84. (Oct., 1912), pp. 576-601.
Pg. 579:  He is greatly pleased with the old gibe against metaphysics that it is like "a blind man in a dark room hunting for a black cat which--is not there!  He does not tell us who the "keen think and great lawyer" is who "not long ago" made this comparison, but the new version of this venerable joke which substitutes hunting a black cat for looking for a black hat, is hardly an improvement, for unless all electro-magnetic disturbances are supposed excluded from the dark room there is no absurity in looking in it for the black cat.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
DANGERS AT OUR DOORS.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 11, 1918. p. II4 (1 page):
   It must have been an American who defined a pessimist as "a blind man looking in a dark room for a black hat which wasn't there."

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Topics of The Times
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1939. p. 18 (1 page):
   If the hour were not so serious, one might say of Winston Churchill that he polished up his phrases so carefully that now he is the ruler of the King's navee.  Speaking of Soviet Russia's purpose, the British First Lord of the Admiralty has just said, "It is a riddle wrapped in mystery inside an enigma."  Conceivably the epigram was suggested to Mr.   Churchill by a popular definition of metaphysics: a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
About A Definition
ERIC UNDERWOOD. Washington, Nov. 24.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 30, 1942. p. 8 (1 page) :
   I hope Mr. Walter Lippman will not mind my pointing out that his story of "a student who once said of philosophy that it was like the search in a dark room for a black cat that wasn't there" is incomplete and not quite accurate.
   The correct version is that: "a student said of metaphysics that 'it was like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black hat that wan't there.'"
   I am sure Mr. Lippmann will agree that metaphysics for philosophy, the immobility of a hat as compared with a cat and the fact that the searcher was blind are improvements on his version.
   The story is attributed to the English Prime Minister, himself a philosophical scholar, who was England's leader at the outbreak of the war of 1914-1918--Herbert Henry Aquith, afterward Earl of Oxford and Asquith.
   ERIC UNDERWOOD
Washington, Nov. 24.

---------------------------------------------------------------
IF "IFS" AND "BUTS" WERE CANDY AND NUTS (continued)

   Dandy Don Meredith dood it.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
  1. Producer Forte Makes ABC Go On Monday Night; Producer Forte Makes ABC Go on Monday Nights
By Lawrence Laurent Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 26, 1972. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:  On-the-air and at public meetings, Meredith is the bucolic, puppy-friendly, old-shoe, ex-athlete.  He has made a running gag, lasting for three seasons, about his inability to explain pass interference.  He is filled with country boy wisdom:
   "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts,
   We'd all have a Merry Christmas."

   2. Of Eggs, Fish, Hot Dogs and Football
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 10, 1974. p. C10 (1 page):
   "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas," Meredith said, repeating an on-the-air favorite.

   3. Maryland Solves Duke in Time; Terps Down Duke After Slow Start
By Mark AsherWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1975. p. E1 (2 pages)

   4. Jimmy The Greek Gives Fewer Points for Fervor
By Dave BradyWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Dec 7, 1976. p. D6 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 04:15:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:15:22 -0500
Subject: Navajo "Frybread" (1957); Nacatamales (1945); Waitress (1818,
 1819)
Message-ID: 

NAVAJO "FRYBREAD"

FRYBREAD--7,510 Google hits, 1,860 Google Groups hits

   Still not in OED.  Not as "frybread," not as "fry bread," and not in the "Navajo" revision under "Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Navajos."
   Navajo "frybread" just made ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Education Urged to End Squalor, IIIs of Navajos; Medical Missionary Finds Tribesmen Slow to Follow Advice of White Friends NAVAJO PROBLEM
HARRY NELSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 23, 1957. p. 2 (3 pages)
Third page:  "Mutton and frybread.  Carbohydrates and grease.  No green vegetables.  No fruit.  No milk.  Is it any wonder that Zonnie and so many others like her cannot follow directions?"

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 3/2/1997
...Miss NAVAJO Nation 1996 also were judged on FRYBREAD making and sheep butchering.....NAVAJO Nation contestants also must make FRYBREAD and butcher sheep. tribe and its.....662-6189; (520) 8714108, (520) 871-5466 NAVAJO Tribal NAVAJO Arts and Crafts: housed.....Each of the fair events has a distinctly NAVAJO twist. The Miss NAVAJO Nation contest..
Elyria, Ohio   Sunday, March 02, 1997  520 k

News Journal - 8/1/1965
...of a diet consisting primarily of FRYBREAD and mutton stew, the daily fare of.....pancake shaped patties and fry. The result: NAVAJO fry-bread. The Rev. Carl Noggle Jr., a.....NAVAJO Indian Missionary who is spending the.....most NAVAJO Indians. The Noggles, former Marion..
Mansfield, Ohio   Sunday, August 01, 1965  756 k

News - 4/3/1971
...came to the Waverley School to make NAVAJO FRY BREAD for all the students. The NAVAJO.....the State Crime Commission. Raymond NAVAJO FRY BREAD On Friday, March 19, Mrs. Irene.....to see the process of the making of FRY BREAD. The receipe for FRY BREAD is: Flour.....Mrs. Alice Castillo, left, and Mrs. Jeff, NAVAJO Indians who accompanied the NAVAJO..
Frederick, Maryland   Saturday, April 03, 1971  842 k

Chronicle Telegram - 7/12/1972
...Snow said. The cooks used a NAVAJO Indian FRY BREAD, which is sconelike, flat and.....lettuce. Serve with cheese crisps or dark BREAD-and-butter sandwiches. Pass salad.....for the hamburger consisted of milk and BREAD used as a dressing. The chuck roast was.....cut costs by doing more than baking our own BREAD and making our own salad dressings..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, July 12, 1972  664 k

News - 4/5/1991
...onemonth visit to Frederick, baked "NAVAJO FRY BREAD" for students at Waverley School.....findings. IRENE WARNER AND ALICE CASTILLO, NAVAJO Indians accompanying a group of.....elementary NAVAJO school children on a..
Frederick, Maryland   Friday, April 05, 1991  654 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
NACATAMALES

THROUGH UNKNOWN NICARAGUA:
THE ADVENTURES OF A NATURALIST ON A WILD-GOOSE CHASE
by Mervyn G. Palmer
London: Jarrolds Limited
1945

   Another cite, in case OED is interested.

Pg. 107:
   The owner of the ranch had shot a deer in the morning, so I had a good meal of venison-_nacatamales_, with coffee.  These nacatamales, or as the native word is frequently shortened into plain "Tamales," are an indigenous dish made by steaming together, in leaves, a mixture of maize-dough, rice, vegetables, spicing and meat, either chicken, pork or deer.  They are very handy to carry in their neat little packet of leaves done up like parcels and tied with a string or a strand of flexible bark, and are very savoury.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WAITRESS

   I re-checked on the TIMES OF LONDON database.  (Newspaperarchive doesn't have the full thing.)
   The 1818 "waitress" citations don't clearly deal with eating establishments, but the 1819 citations of "waitress" do.


   THE TIMES, April 6, 1818, pg. 4, col. A:
AS HOUSEMAID, Waitress, or Chambermaid, a young woman, aged 25.

   THE TIMES, October 24, 1818, pg. 3, col. F:
AS WAITRESS OR CHAMBERMAID...

   THE TIMES, March 18, 1819, pg. 4, col. A:
AS COOK, Chambermaid, or Waitress in an Inn, Tavern, or Coffee-house, a respectable young woman,...

   THE TIMES, October 25, 1819, pg. 4, col. A:
AS CHAMBERMAID in an Hotel or Tavern, or Waitress in a Chop-house or Eating-house, a young woman, aged 27, who can have 18 months' character from her last place.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Mar 28 08:39:49 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:39:49 -0500
Subject: "Jinx" etymology summary
Message-ID: 

[A correspondent requested that I summarize my proposed etymology. OK, here
goes.]

ETYMOLOGY OF "JINX"

==========

1887-1894: THE FRANK DANIELS MUSICAL COMEDY "LITTLE PUCK" INCLUDES THE
CHARACTER JINKS HOODOO ("A CURSE TO EVERYBODY, INCLUDING HIMSELF")

[During this period the fashionable word for "carrier of bad luck" in
baseball columns etc. was "hoodoo"; this alternated with "Jonah",
"nemesis", etc., occasionally, but I don't find stand-alone "jinx"/"jinks".]

==========

_New York Daily Tribune_, 18 Jan. 1888: p. 4, col. 6:

[from the cast list of "Little Puck"]

<>

----------

_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 21 Feb. 1888: p. 3, col. 1:

[description of "Little Puck"]

<>

----------

_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 12 Mar. 1889: p. 4, col. 5:

<>

[P. Giltedge is a capitalist. Dr. Hercules Savage is his son's intimidating
schoolmaster.]

----------

_Decatur Daily Republican_ [Decatur IL], 21 Oct. 1893: p. 3, col. 5:

<>

----------

_Bucks County Gazette_ [Bristol PA], 20 Sep. 1894: p. 1, col. 6:

<>

[Just to verify that "Little Puck" was well known. It was presented as late
as 1894 to my knowledge.]

==========

1895-1906: THE NAME "JINKS HOODOO" IS APPLIED TO CARRIERS OF BAD LUCK

[Cf. the names Jonah (earlier) and Joe Btfsplk (Al Capp) (later).]

[Still no stand-alone "jinx"/"jinks" in this sense. "Hoodoo" remains
current in the baseball news etc.]

==========

_Hawaiian Gazette_ [Honolulu], 19 March 1895: p. 2, col. 4:

[Smoke appears on shipboard during a card game. There is a nervous Mr.
Ficke on board expressing grave forebodings about the fate of the ship etc.
The smoke is found to be innocent.]

<>

----------

_Nevada State Journal_ [Reno NV], 4 Apr. 1906: p. 8, col. 3:

<>

==========

1907-PRESENT: "JINKS"/"JINX" ALONE REFERS TO A CARRIER OF BAD LUCK (OR TO
THE CURSE ITSELF), SYNONYMOUS WITH "HOODOO"

[I find "jinx"/"jinks" in the appropriate sense in baseball and
prize-fighting contexts from 1909, and a single example which appears
possibly aberrant/nonce/erroneous in 1907.]

==========

1908: _A. Mutt_ (comic strip by Bud Fisher, anthologized 1977): pp. 25, 28
(also quoted in HDAS):

[A. Mutt decides to give up racetrack betting.]

<>

[Of course he continues to gamble. He decides that the odds-makers are
discriminating against him, so he gets his mustache shaved off to disguise
himself.]

<>

----------

_Fort Wayne Sentinel_ [Fort Wayne IN], 13 June 1910: p. 10, col. 1:

<>

----------

_Fort Wayne Sentinel_ [Fort Wayne IN], 17 June 1910: p. 14(?), col. 3:

<>

==========

This may be compared with the 'conventional' derivation from "jynx" [bird
or charm], promulgated by OED, MW3, etc. In HDAS (v. 2, p. 283):
"reintroduced as sports slang _ca_1905 from its occurrence in T. Urquhart's
translation (1673) of Rabelais -- the sole E[nglish] quot. given by the
_OED_" Reading between the lines, I believe I detect a trace of
[Lighter's?] skepticism here.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 09:59:12 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:59:12 EST
Subject: Hatchet Job (1940); Hatchet Man (1936); Subway Series
Message-ID: 

HATCHET JOB

HATCHET JOB--28,300 Google hits, 20,100 Google Groups hits

   From "Page Six" (actually, page 10) of Sunday's NEW YORK POST, 28 March
2004:

   FRESH from a bizarre on-air showdown with CBNC talk-show host _Dennis
Miller), left-wing MSNBC pundit _Eric Alterman_ has accused The New York Observer
of boing a second "hatchet job" on him.
(...)
   The thin-skinned scribe, who claimes that Observer writer _George Gurley_
skewered him in a "bitchy hatchet job" last year, responded by charging that
the snarky salmon-colored weekly has it out for him.


   A chess-playing friend of mine once called me "The Hatchet."
  "Get it?" he said.
   "No."
   "Barry.  Barry the Hatchet!"
   I didn't particularly like the joke, so I killed him.


(WWW.LOC.GOV)
Brief Description:  [Hatchet (Washington, D.C. : 1883)]
The Hatchet.
Washington, D.C. : The Hatchet Pub. Co., 1883-
v.
v. 1, no. 1 (Dec. 1, 1883)-



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Wellsboro Gazette - 8/29/1940
...S'lrday school at 2 and worship Ickes' HATCHET JOBS, consisting of
Siiruiay school..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Thursday, August 29, 1940  693 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 8/26/1940
...Instead it was one of "Donald Duck" Ickes' HATCHET JOBS, consisting of
subtle.....eetings as speakers or aas asserted. URGES JOBS, SECURITY Plum City,
Oratory nnot head.....which can be stopped ly by providing JOBS for our ople
and security for .those too.....to aspire only to the white collar JOBS where
would we get brainy people enough..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Monday, August 26, 1940  894 k

Nevada State Journal - 10/12/1943
...got. control of Congress and would do real HATCHET JOB if they got,
complete control of..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, October 12, 1943  832 k

Zanesville Signal - 2/22/1945
...accused a national poll today of doing a HATCHET JOB on' George
Washington. Bloom said..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, February 22, 1945  838 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 2/22/1945
...the Eastern iront. Poll Is Accused Of Doing HATCHET JOB on Washington Rep.
'Bloom (D-N.Y.....accused a national poll today of doing a HATCHET JOB on
George Washington, Bloom said..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Thursday, February 22, 1945  864 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 1/12/1943
...income groups. We have seen the political HATCHET JOB that was: done On
the President's.....of wellheeled workers to lay down on the JOB in order to
extend the time of their.....worker with the urgency of tiis particular JOB when
he could not be told specifically.....brazen cases of absenteeism because his
JOB is largely dependent on his popularity..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, January 12, 1943  876 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HATCHET MAN

   The HDAS has 1941 for "hatchet man."  We can beat this, too.  The movie
was probably a major influence.
   Edward G. Robinson as a Chinaman named Wong Low Get??


(WWW.IMDB.COM)
Hatchet Man, The (1932)
Directed by
William A. Wellman
Writing credits
Achmed Abdullah (play)
J. Grubb Alexander
Genre: Crime / Drama
Plot Summary: San Francisco Tong hatchet man Wong must execute his boyhood
friend Sun. Sun agrees to will him all...
Complete credited cast:
Edward G. Robinson  ....    Wong Low Get
Loretta Young   ....    Sun Toya San
Dudley Digges   ....    Nog Hong Fah
Leslie Fenton   ....    Harry En Hai
Edmund Breese   ....    Yu Chang
Tully Marshall  ....    Long Sen Yat
J. Carrol Naish ....    Sun Yat Ming (as J. Carroll Naish)
Charles Middleton   ....    Lip Hop Fat
E. Allyn Warren ....    Soo Lat, the Cobbler
Edward Peil Sr. ....    Bing Foo (as Eddie Piel)
  (more)
Also Known As:
Honourable Mr. Wong, The (1932) (UK)
Runtime: 74 min
Country: USA
Language: English
Color: Black and White
Sound Mix: Mono

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newark Advocate - 11/30/1937
...to his party." Hejmocracy when Democrats, HATCHET, MAN Poulson, who acted
as had a good.....for 1939. Washington, Nov. 30. PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT asked
congress today to reduce.....went to work so swiftly today on i PRESIDENT
ROOSEVELT's proi gram to encourage.....legislature Horace Goldin, inventor of an "
HATCHET men." P.epubiicans and Democrats..
Newark, Ohio Tuesday, November 30, 1937  783 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 7/17/1935
...said they learned of Jung's record as a HATCHET MAN from Frank Moy.
unofficial "mayor.....States supreme court wrecked NRA. PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT appealed
the highest court's NRA.....14 1-4. REVEAL SUSPECT IN LANG MURDER IS "HATCHET
" MAN Chicago, July Chinatown broke.....the end, a Progressive resolution
praising PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT for appointing Immell was..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 17, 1935  926 k

Chronicle Telegram - 3/30/1936
...daris hanging out of windows." he torial HATCHET-MAN by naming for the
PRESIDENTial.....National Committee has paid PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT the compliment
of imitation. They.....and save all parties concerned including PRESIDENT
ROOSEVELT carloads of future grief.....ROOSEVELT favored a new commission a three-
MAN board to replace treasury alcohol control..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, March 30, 1936  930 k

Monessen Daily Independent - 9/8/1936
...room and came up behind the drink-crazed "HATCHET MAN." Kotch gave one
leap and Kochin.....Press} Washington. Sept. 8 PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT, satisfied
with reaction to his.....of the local 'lodge are Joseph Lescanac, PRESIDENT;
Walter Malec, vice-PRESIDENT.....HELD AFTER CUTTING AFFAIR A sharp-edged HATCHET
and a steel-bladed penknife were..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, September 08, 1936  884 k

Nevada State Journal - 1/30/1938
...is I vision. the President's chief HATCHET MAN This is of the most
impoiVant.....little fellows" makes for cheaper Harold ICKES, Secretary of the
Inprices and easier.....that of the men 2.74W. In the dormitories. MAN zarita halls
averagewas that of Lincoln.....In opposition to this view are the J.icluon
ICKES Douglas group, disciples of Justice..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, January 30, 1938  743 k

Frederick Post - 2/9/1938
...he has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....him that he should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....He was no more bitter in his criticisms of ICKES
and Burlew than MANy other of ICKES.....Charlie West was Roosevelt's chief
liaison MAN with Congress. He was undersecretary of..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, February 09, 1938  966 k

Bismarck Tribune - 2/26/1938
...be has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....times from Chihe should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....staff of Un dersecretary Charles West, has
MAN aged to liquidate hljrpet the proposed.....It looks as If Secretary "Honest
Harold" ICKES in liquidating the office..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Saturday, February 26, 1938  771 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/10/1938
...he has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....him that he should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....He was no more bitter in his criticisms of ICKES
arid Burley than MANy other of ICKES.....but is he a squealer if he turns in a
MAN who takes bread and butter right out of..
Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, February 10, 1938  848 k

Bedford Gazette - 4/8/1932
...Sat. Apr. 15-16 Double Feature Program "THE HATCHET MAN" Edward G.
Robinson, Loretta.....of Bedford County at Bedford, Monday. J. L. ICKES and family
and Miss Mary ICKES spent.....at State College last year it required 5.63 MAN
hours and 4.64 tractor hours an acre to.....of Mr. and Mrs. Rush Burket. Miss
Rebecca ICKES returned to Teachers' College at Lock..
Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, April 08, 1932  674 k

Nevada State Journal - 11/9/1938
...speech." Now Charlie is known as the No, 1 HATCHET MAN for the Washington
gang. As a.....matter suggest the figure of Mr. Harold ICKES, who gets a year,
but when he felt the.....for the post of the Administration's No. HATCHET MAN
. Twenty-five years in Washington.....Mr. Barton himself may have had Mr.
ICKES and his rest cure at a day in mind, but..
Reno, Nevada Wednesday, November 09, 1938  698 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/6/1938
...on WHIRLG1G Washington Gal TWO the list of HATCHET MAN Tommie Corcoran.
Tommie alone is.....backed in that Iowa affair. Secretary ICKES' family believes
in democracy picnic.....at the White he was the original Roosevelt MAN in the
state but he doesn't comMANd.....his convenience. "Nothing doin' grunted Mr.
ICKES. "I'll take my turn." And he's still..
Ironwood, Michigan Wednesday, July 06, 1938  874 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(earliest seven citations)
Atlanta Constitution - 2/23/1906
...that he was never in New and that he is not HATCHET MAN of any tong. Lura
Is out on his.....located her. He went, together with Lum Wo, HATCHET MAN of
the Lum Tong, to confer with.....of well and good for Lum; but If he was the
HATCHET MAN who helped to slay Chang his fate.....mag-nates in New York, I would
toe the last MAN in to criticize and denounce -others for..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 23, 1906  596 k

Atlanta Constitution - 2/23/1906
...Wo. a criminal of dark who is known as the HATCHET MAN of both the Lum and
the Hip Sing.....Tongs. In the of Chinese a HATCHET MAN Is an official
murderer and every.....is said to 'eat pie. Wo, the noted HATCHET MAN, is to have
three The Atlanta Lum.....time 'he kills a MAN, he..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 23, 1906  525 k

Daily Herald - 12/9/1903
...a commission to kill a MAN a good HATCHET MAN is selected to do the bloody
work. Or, if.....years. The horse is certainly the friend of MAN; but MAN
floes not seem to be the friend.....instance have prospered most. The salaried
MAN as a rule, the MAN who lacks capital. His.....farmer is counted a really
freeI handed MAN in his community, as we j happen to know..
Delphos, Ohio Wednesday, December 09, 1903  796 k

Fresno Weekly Republican - 1/28/1898
...it to titone Kholi.ivo it not. An Chief HATCHET MAN of tbo Literary
IliehbinJpra ho.....not find in the acquirement of money, Tho MAN of whom he writes
ia a rich MAN, a.....We have in A. J, Fittery o Tulare an able MAN whoEs loug
eer vice in the party aud.....aouthorn end of the diotrict that ho ia tbe MAN
for the placa. Baline moveraent to secure..
Fresno, California Friday, January 28, 1898  647 k

Mountain Democrat - 6/17/1899
...boring his converts by the thousand. A HATCHET-MAN from San Francisco
Mriouily.....less than 540 steps in the time a healthy MAN would breathe once. A
MAN with.....forced a potato down his throat. The old MAN had evidently fought
hard for his life.....surrounding the the fate of Haynes. Every MAN in the
town of Prince ton, Ey., was fined..
Placerville, California Saturday, June 17, 1899  573 k

Decatur Daily Republican - 7/28/1882
...West Antrim, known here an n. little HATCHET MAN, who could but wouldn't
tell a.....were being sold as antique. There is an old MAN in Olic-nt who
imitates them very.....and Borcerera only on solemn occasions each MAN may act as
his own augur on behalf of.....That's the only tiling we replied the old MAN
with a mournful sigh. "We've got schools..
Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 28, 1882  691 k

New Oxford Item - 5/3/1895
...what expected of him as their descendant. A HATCHET MAN, wearing a
.coraltipped mow.....Thugs, who had more ways of killing a MAN than you would think
possible HATCHET-men.....brown mustaclte. He was a self-made MAN, a true son of
the people, a MAN whom.....in America is the very worst thing one MAN can say
of another. And Shotover never..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, May 03, 1895  671 k

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SUBWAY SERIES (continued)

   Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES City section celebrates 100 years of the NYC
subway.
     See the ADS-L archives for w hat's wrongly stated here:

1921 The Giants play the Yankees at the Polo Grounds in the first Subway
Series. Giants win 5 games to 3.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Mar 28 14:19:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:19:07 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403280500.i2S5092f003615@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Douglas Wilson warned:

Pretty much. But caution: there is a lot of material on Nostratic
looking for a home ... not to mention Klingon ....

        ===

Be warned: I do Klingon. I've been in the KLI for years, and I'm in
their current translation project. And it's certainly influenced by
N.A.Eng.

         tlhIngan veQbeq marqem la'Hom
 Heghbej ghIHmoHwI'pu'! -- Death to Litterbugs!
 Subcommander Markemm, Klingon Sanitation Corps
         http://mark.cracksandshards.com/


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Mar 28 16:29:23 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:29:23 -0500
Subject: grass roots (1880's)
Message-ID: 

I have the "recollections" statement about grass roots in the political
sense going back to the 1880's.  I have not found it after searching the
historical NYT in Proquest.  Has anyone found it in archives of 19th
century papers?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Sun Mar 28 17:02:34 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:02:34 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
Message-ID: 

An article in today's Baltimore Sun

(http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/arts/bal-as.hewitt28mar28,0,6684849.stor
y?coll=bal-artslife-society)

states that "During the same convention, [Don] Hewitt and Sig Mickelson, then
president of CBS News, coined the word 'anchorman' to describe a new style of
reporting being done by their recent hire - a man named Cronkite."

The convention was the 1952 Republican convention in Chicago. No citations are
given. RHUD says 1955-60 for this usage; I don't find other dictionaries that
date it.

Orin Hargraves


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Sun Mar 28 17:32:00 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:32:00 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's Detroit
Free Press:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm

I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of the
issues we've been ruminating on.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
Department of English/Computing and Information Technology
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

Phones:  C&IT (313) 577-1259/English (313) 577-8621


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Mar 28 18:04:48 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:04:48 -0800
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <4064EB73@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: 

> An article in today's Baltimore Sun
>
> (http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/arts/bal-as.hewitt28mar28,0,
> 6684849.stor
> y?coll=bal-artslife-society)
>
> states that "During the same convention, [Don] Hewitt and Sig
> Mickelson, then president of CBS News, coined the word
> 'anchorman' to describe a new style of reporting being done by
> their recent hire - a man named Cronkite."
>
> The convention was the 1952 Republican convention in Chicago. No
> citations are given. RHUD says 1955-60 for this usage; I don't
> find other dictionaries that date it.

I've heard this tale before, but can't remember where--it may have been a
broadcast interview with Cronkite telling the tale. My memory is that CBS
covered the convention with 3 other reporters and Cronkite serving as the
central figure. The term was taken from track and field usage, the
"anchorman" in a 4-person relay.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 18:57:48 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:57:48 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
Message-ID: 

>From a story in the _Mount Pleasant(IA) News_ 28 Nov, 1952   page 6/col 4
(Newspaperarchive)

(The entire article talks about newspeople who had just covered the
Convention.)

<>

The story is headlined "NY (INS)"  but no author.

So, did Hewitt coin the name only days before this writer?  How did this
writer learn of the coinage?

Sam Clements


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 19:44:43 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:44:43 EST
Subject: "Astroturf"
Message-ID: 

"Now operatives e-mail their dirt or counterdirt out at 6 a.m.  By breakfast,
the material is being parroted by talk-show hosts, bloggers, and letter
writers recruited by the Astroturf (i.e., phony grassroots) operations..."

Probably a nonce usage, unfortunately.  I hope it catches on, in which case
it will be a worthy candidate for WOTY.

source: Chris Satullo "Turning up partisan noise turns off voters"
_Philadelphia Inquirer_ March 28, 2004, page C7 (op-ed page)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural style---as when
he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"
(note on context: the article was about how Kerry's verbose speaking
style---"inability to put a period in his sentences"---was costing him.  The remark
about Bush was for comparison of speaking styles and was not a political
comment.)

I can think of several adjectives to use here, starting with "blunt" and
going on to "Gary Cooperesque", but "guttural"?

source:  John F. Harris "Kerry" _Atlantic City Press_ March 28, 2004 page A9
column 4 (this was a jump from page A1).  The article apparently is originally
from the _Washington Post_

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jim Parish writes:

> > "The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew
Brzezinski
>  > but Jon Smythe"
>
>  Isn't it "Zbigniew"?

Yes.  I had no idea how to spell "Zbigniew Brzezinski" so I did the safe
thing:  I checked on the Web.  Specifically I Googled on +Carter+"National
Security" and found the Web site www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1191.cfm, from which I cut
and pasted the name.  Guess what.

And this was in a posting about Murphy's Law!

To top it off, when I first typed this letter, I mispelled your name (I put
two r's in it).

(If it makes you feel any better,  www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1191.cfm turns
out to be a crackpot site, a fact which is not apparent from the Google
listing.)

         - Jim Landau (red-faced)


From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 21:31:33 2004
From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:31:33 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <200403281857.i2SIvroW027040@ncmx03.mgw.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

Sam Clements had passed along:

> From a story in the _Mount Pleasant(IA) News_ 28 Nov, 1952
> page 6/col 4 (Newspaperarchive)
>
> (The entire article talks about newspeople who had just covered the
> Convention.)
>
> < trial by TV.
> Solid, sure reporting, amazingly neutral manner under every
> circumstance(*until the Chicago/Rather thing--sc)  with no
> compulsion to
> inject excitement or color where none exists; an ideal anchor
> man, by far the best of CBS-TV's team.>>
>
> The story is headlined "NY (INS)"  but no author.
>
> So, did Hewitt coin the name only days before this writer?
> How did this writer learn of the coinage?


I think we can at least back this specific usage of "anchor man" up a
few weeks to November 4, 1952:  CBS took out display ads in *The New
York Times* (pg. 36) and *The Los Angeles Times* (pg. 21) encouraging
viewers to watch its election-night coverage and featuring "Walter
Cronkite; 'anchor man' as he was for both political conventions."


But it bears pointing out that writers for *The New York Times*, at
least, had referred to other types of TV personalities as "anchor men"
before the conventions had taken place, though not precisely in the same
sense.

[From Murray Schumach's "TV Panel Anchor Man; Affable Herman Hickman Is
Not Infallible," 10 December 1950; Pg. X15.]

   Herman Hickman, probably the first man to parlay pigskins
   and poetry into a television contract, was having trouble
   with a memory usually infallible.  The man who had memorized
   countless yards of poetry, assorted classical rhetoric and
   mazes of razzle-dazzle football plays could not recall how
   he came to be a permanent panel member for "Celebrity Time,"
   televised each Sunday night, (WCBS-TV:  10-10:30).

Arthur Daley also mentions Hickman's appearance on "Celebrity Time,"
holding that "Herman became a regular, the most solid anchor man any
quiz show ever had."  [From "The Fabulous Herman Hickman," 28 October
1951; Pg. 34.]  (Hickman had been a football coach and profession
wrestler, so "anchor man" -- which, as Dave has pointed out, already had
a well-established usage in sports -- wasn't too much of a stretch.)


More significantly, though, Leo Cherne had already referred to Lawrence
Spivak -- host, chief questioner, and producer of "Meet the Press,"
NBC's news/interview program -- as an "anchor man" in March 1952, before
the summer's political conventions had taken place.

[From Leo M. Cherne's "Biggest Question on TV Debates," *The New York
Times*; 2 March 1952; Pg. SM14.]

   In one typical and stimulating "Meet The Press" session
   Bertrand Russell confronted a panel of journalists.  There
   was no presentation of what the noted philosopher believes
   on any one subject.  Nor, as a matter of fact, did the program
   leave an understanding of any one of the hundreds of
   controversial views he has articulated in a long life.  What
   emerged from the television screen, and what undoubtedly
   remained in the minds of the viewers, was the personal contest
   between acidulous Lawrence Spivak, anchor man on the "Meet The
   Press" panel, and Lord Russell.


I suppose, then, it's possible that by the summer of 1952, "anchor man"
in a broadcast sense was not unfamiliar to those who read press reports
about the media; in July, Mickelson and/or Hewitt may have simply
finetuned its usage to fit Cronkite's leadership role in election
broadcasts and later on a nightly news program.

-- Bonnie Taylor-Blake


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 22:11:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:11:55 EST
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
Message-ID: 

   Here we go again.
  
  
ANCHORMAN

    ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
  
  Color's Pretty, But Not Yet Ripe; 'Capitol Cloakroom' Has a Birthday; By 
Sonia Stein; The Washington Post (1877-1954), Washington, D.C.; Apr 2, 1950; pg. 
L1, 2 pgsPg. L2:Producer Lewis Schollenberger...  (CBS--ed.)"We let them 
dodger them any way they can, and since a good part of a Congressman's trade is 
knowing how to deflect questions they are pretty successful," according to 
Griffing Bancroft, anchor man on the team of newsmen who handle the show.
  
  
ASTROTURF
  
   From www.wordspy.com (PLUG: buy the book by Paul McFedries):
  
astroturf 
(AS.troh.turf) n. A fake grass-roots movement.
—astroturfing pp.

Example Citation:
"Of the calls we are getting in the D.C. office, about half are Astroturf and 
half are real," said Mr. Milburn, in Mr. Hobson's office, using Washington 
parlance for calls that seem to be from individuals but are in fact orchestrated 
by lobbying groups.
—Katharine Q. Seelye, "Public Is Flooding Capitol With Impeachment Views," 
The New York Times, December 15, 1998 


Notes:
This word is a nice play on AstroTurf, a brand of artificial grass. 


Earliest Citation:
Issue-oriented newspaper advertisements featuring clip-out coupons are often 
designed to show that the sponsor's goal has grass-roots support. But the 
"grass roots is AstroTurf in many cases, artificial turf," says Sen. Lloyd 
Bentsen, D-Texas. A case in point, in his view, is the recent ad campaign by the 
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States against increases in excise taxes 
on liquor. Bentsen reports that a third of the 190 coupons his office received 
were altered to express support for tax increases that the coupon says could 
raise the price of a bottle of liquor $2 and "put a lot of people in the 
beverage alcohol business out of work."
—"Playing on astroturf," The National Journal, April 19, 1986 

Subject Categories: 
The World - Activism 
The World - Politics 

Posted on December 17, 1998
 


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 23:34:04 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:34:04 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
Message-ID: 

From: 

   Here we go again.

  ANCHORMAN

    ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:

Yep.  You did.  I just forgot to search for "anchor man" rather than
"anchorman."  Unlike the Times, I apologize.

So, then, the final answer is that Hewitt is BSing on this invention.

SC


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Mar 28 23:54:03 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:54:03 -0600
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <20040328221208.5A57056DF@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

If I'm correct that the development of this term is something like this:
   (1a)  Bottom of graduating class (Navy)
   (1b)  Hindmost member of a tug-of-war team (Navy)
 > (2)  Last member of a team to play (relay race, bowling)
 > (3)  Pivotal or best member of a team (akin to cleanup hitter)
 > (4)  Host of a broadcast news program

Then it's not clear to me, without more context, whether Barry's citation
exemplifies (4) or (3) or possibly even (2),  even though it is indeed
about a broadcast news program.

--Tom Kysilko

At 3/28/2004 05:11 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>   Here we go again.
>ANCHORMAN
>
>     ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
>   Color's Pretty, But Not Yet Ripe; 'Capitol Cloakroom' Has a Birthday; By
>Sonia Stein; The Washington Post (1877-1954), Washington, D.C.; Apr 2, 1950;
>  pg.
>L1, 2 pgsPg. L2:Producer Lewis Schollenberger...  (CBS--ed.)"We let them
>dodger them any way they can, and since a good part of a Congressman's trade
>  is
>knowing how to deflect questions they are pretty successful," according to
>Griffing Bancroft, anchor man on the team of newsmen who handle the show.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar 29 00:57:54 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:57:54 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
In-Reply-To: <001301c4151d$281f95d0$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 06:34:04PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> From: 
>
>    Here we go again.
>
>   ANCHORMAN
>
>     ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
>
> Yep.  You did.  I just forgot to search for "anchor man" rather than
> "anchorman."  Unlike the Times, I apologize.
>
> So, then, the final answer is that Hewitt is BSing on this invention.

Not necessarily. He could believe that he coined it. Indeed, there's
no reason he couldn't have spontaneously recoined it; there's nothing
especially novel about this use that suggests it needed a Tom Wolfean
feat of verbal ingenuity to spring into existence.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 03:13:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:13:32 -0500
Subject: Talking Turkey (1837, 1839); Poor as Job's Turkey (1828)
Message-ID: 

   For any turkey lurking out there.  I'll re-check these two when Readex comes out with its EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS in the "second quarter 2004."  So that's--April?

---------------------------------------------------------------
TALKING TURKEY

   OED appears to have this from 1824, and this would be the second citation.  This citation indicates that it's from the colonial period.

Article 6 -- No Title; THE WISH. AUGUSTA. HELEN. ANNA. EMILY.
The New - York Mirror: a Weekly Gazette of Literature and the Fine Arts (1823-1842). New York: Jul 8, 1837. Vol. 15, Iss. 2; p. 16 (1 page):
   TALKING TURKEY.--The exact signification of this colonick phrase has recently been discussed by some of our contemporaries, and has been finally settled by the Oneida Democrat, which gives an account of its origin.  An Indian and a white man went a shooting partnership, and a wild turkey and a crow were all the result of the day's toil.  The white man in his usual style of making a bargain with the Indian, proposed a division of the spoils in this way:--"Now, Wampum, you may have your choice, you take the crow and I'll take the turkey, or if you'd rather, I'll take the turkey and you take the crow."  Wampum reflected a moment on the generous alternative thus offered and replied--"Ugh! you no talk turkey to me a bit."

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Adams Sentinel - 1/7/1839
...ihe TURKEY." s-jit ihe Indian, "you no TALK TURKEY to me alaii." S POOR. Ii is an old.....pair.ot rnind iv.rti away from j ?'ey lii'k TURKEY to us at a: ihe people will scon lalk.....Indian, who, bur.ting logciher, killed a TURKEY anil a crow, and on c'iviiST the.....sa-ii io tbe Indian "Now'. I'll take the TURKEY, and may have the crow or. if you..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Monday, January 07, 1839  803 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
POOR AS JOB'S TURKEY

   OED has 1824 for "patient as Job's turkey."  DARE has 1830 for "poor as Job's turkey."

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
Article 2 -- No Title; Paul and Virginia.
The Western Monthly Review (1827-1830). Cincinnati: Oct 1828. Vol. 2, Iss. 5; p. 281 (6 pages)
Third page:  Both of them are poor, as Job's turkeys.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Edinburgh Advertiser - 12/6/1811
...I presented ray bill, he This makes one AS POOR AS JOB I have just been paying for a.....which I took of old John Hodge, a POOR, but very honest m.in, and who, I dare.....of his M.IJ-TJty's forces in the island, AS weil AS by the inhabitants, who testified.....IE, upon the OHicers under his command, AS well AS the general discipline of the..
Edinburgh, Midlothian   Friday, December 06, 1811  426 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 05:23:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:23:51 -0500
Subject: Tip of the iceberg (1947); Keep your chin up (1882, 1893)
Message-ID: 

  More of Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS & SAYINGS.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TIP OF THE ICEBERG

  Titelman's first citation is 1969.  Is the 1912 citation below correct?  Everything else is 1947--.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Rural France: Shrug and 'So What' Greet Paris Political Crisis; 'But Still There Is France,' Say Peasants as Cabinets Fall Even Tempo Caught Off Guard Little Effect Treadmill Politics Revolutionary Climax Endless Belt Treated Like Comedians Base Remains Unmoved
By Volney D. Hurd Chief of the Paris News Bureau of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 9, 1948. p. 13 (1 page):
  The French Government is just the tip of the iceberg out of water.  It plays, gyrates, changes, sparkles, dances, and falls.  But underneath the water is the calm solid mass representing the true center of the iceberg.  It rests unchanged and unshaken.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/29/1949
...cache ever found. we've only scratched THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG here. We've only gone.....pole. THE troopers smelled a rank odor from THE back OF THE truck and foundTHE body OF a.....OF THE Lincoln Legal Papers, a project OF THE Illinois Historic Preservation Agency.....THE sources said THE guerrillas, members OF Hezbollah, or Party OF God, were ambushed..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, June 29, 1949  875 k

Chronicle Telegram - 11/9/1949
...strengths and talents, yet it is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG in terms OF student.....last year in THE number OF students taking THE Scholastic Aptitude Test was reported in.....21. list OF student achievements represents THE efforts OF hundreds OF students with.....and measurement OF emissions while THE car's engine idles. Cuyahoga County is..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, November 09, 1949  545 k

Nevada State Journal - 9/29/1912
...an -intricate sentence or in soUnns 'a TIP OF THE ICEBERG that shows problem." THEre.....s. a resiOenl: OF Neva'Oa in THE boom days 'OF THE Omstocl; an. a I'oiknver OF THE camps.....for ihe prosperity OF THE people. It ix THE sigenvy. through which THE poopie OF THE.....preparing to .enter OF a few facts; say, OF THE case OF Ralph, THE case OF some know..
Reno, Nevada   Sunday, September 29, 1912  1081 k

Chronicle Telegram - 8/5/1949
...disclosed in a recent audit may be just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG and he wants more answers.....I'm very concerned that this is just THE TIP OF a very large Glenn said. Feds say.....as THE Perseids. So it's hard to anticipate THE density OF THE region Earth passes.....Society report with Zidian Wu. To see THE meteors, gaze in THE direction OF THE..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, August 05, 1949  539 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 2/26/1947
...understand." Hospitalization is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. Volunteers also could.....power OF THE presidency is pitted against THE liabilities OF THE presumed Democratic.....did." THE woman was asked why she thought THE icon would weep. "For THE state OF THE.....anoTHEr man had taken OF THE icon and THE photograph showed only a ball OF white..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Wednesday, February 26, 1947  498 k

Mountain Democrat - 12/17/1889 (WRONG DATE!!!!--ed.)
...is still unclear 10 me. This is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG in THE dcvelopmen: OF ihe.....THE 500 participants. Also contributing to THE festivity and success OF THE event were.....tumbling out OF THE bus with him, wrestled THE gun away with THE help OF a passenger.....THE require THE regular aid and attendance OF anoTHEr person. 0 As THE widow OF a World..
Placerville, California   Tuesday, December 17, 1889  482 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR CHIN UP

  Titleman says: "Originated in the United States in the 1940s."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
MY TIME, AND WHAT I'VE DONE WITH IT.; CHAPTER IV. THE WELCOME HOME. CHAPTER V. SCHOOL-TIME.--GLIDING ONWARDS. CHAPTER VI. CHAPTER VII.
FRANCIS C BURNAND. Old and New (1870-1875). Boston: May 1873. Vol. 7, Iss. 5; p. 546 (21 pages)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 9/9/1882
...little more to the, that's too iilueh. YOUR CHIN UP. about YOUR h-ft hand. YOUR ft el ft.....as of ten as you like. that'll Jo. So, YOUR CHIN is too high. that's it. smile. it UP.....right fout is out too much. out for YOUR CHIN. Therejust so. you are all right. Just.....and bridegroom the single ladies are drawn UP in one row, and the bachelors in another..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, September 09, 1882  414 k

Daily Advocate - 10/1/1893
...come and found him rebellious. He kept his CHIN UP never confessed that tierce.....raising the window) You must have been hard UP for companionship when you lit that one..
Newark, Ohio   Sunday, October 01, 1893  688 k

Freeborn County Standard - 2/2/1898
...Xol Impatient Husband (tired of holding his CHIN UP) It's taking you an awfully long time.....more active, lithe and than Bob. Sitting UP presently, he gazed at the broad, level.....he moved only when th chestnut's head was UP, his object be 1 seen as possible. he have.....effect that the leeing creature was brought UP with in abrUPt turn. As if realzing the..
Albert Lea, Minnesota   Wednesday, February 02, 1898  1132 k

Daily Northwestern - 12/1/1900
...KA.Horn and J. F. W. druggists. Keep your CHIN UP. (If you arc a woman, you won't have.....to be In the flgrht chiefly to even UP with Rosewater, who beat Mm in the Omaha.....from any number of sources to go into a tie-UP, but he is holding aloof until it can be.....heart, attacks of dizziness when getting UP in the morning, and was in a generally run..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Saturday, December 01, 1900  921 k

Broad Ax - 12/8/1900
...nearly always striking for wages. Keep your CHIN UP. (If you He a woman, yon won't have.....Others however, equally great took UP the InterrUPted thread with the result.....the-.' s conti'iiclpd thii ni'th t> ''Tiilr UP the Hannah llrifl would be children fron..
Chicago, Illinois   Saturday, December 08, 1900  559 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 05:57:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:57:25 -0500
Subject: Keep your feet on the ground (1896,
 1913); Keep your fingers crossed (1913)
Message-ID: 

"KEEP YOUR CHIN UP" CORRECTION:  Sorry for that 1873 American Periodical Series cite still there.  It has "your chin up," but I didn't find it.  No "keep your chin up."

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED

   Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS has: "Originated in the 1920s."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Wichita Daily Times - 6/13/1913
...615 Eighth DOUBLE HOODOO TODAY KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED For Bad Luck Is Apt to Be.....tbe 13th and only those who have kept their FINGERS CROSSED tho day bavo como through.....at 10.00; saving of 3.50 IJ This makes YOUR second suit come pretty easy; it's a big.....from. We guarantee you a perfect fit or YOUR money refunded Our to all: One-third..
Wichita Falls, Texas   Friday, June 13, 1913  303 k

Oxnard Daily Courier - 2/7/1920
...WHAT 1975 WILL PRODUCE Feb. KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED in 1975. As far as that goes.....any month of the present year is likely to KEEP you "knocking wood" and praying to YOUR..
Oxnard, California   Saturday, February 07, 1920  692 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 10/13/1922
...vessels racing to the scene KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED Look out -or ladders an-J.....Oct. I" The c'ers who had to haro spurs to KEEP viction of ihe Eev. Thomas J. their feei.....jinx idea, here are a few arguments in YOUR favor. CoJumbus' expedition which..
Iowa City, Iowa   Friday, October 13, 1922  818 k

Fort Wayne News - 3/29/1916
...lines for next Wednesday mornIng. KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED-SUN'S SHINING THE WEATHERMAN.....but don't say it .too loudly and KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED, .because the weather man has.....with the first application or return YOUR money. There are lota of shin remedies..

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND

   Titelman has: "The proverb is first attested in the United States in 1931."
   There's the 1913 citation below, with a reference to the Yale Alumni Association, but I'm sure Fred won't mention that in the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS.  Yale can't get everything!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1913. p. 12 (1 page):
   Mr. TAFT is a fine lawyer, he was a sound Judge, has proved by many tests his ability as an administrative officer, and promises to become an excellent teacher.  He has laid down at least one safe and sane condition.
   Speaking the other night to the Yale Alumni Association in Washington he said that the men who have been teaching political economy in our universities in recent years have not kept their feet on the ground, with the result that the undergraduates have not been properly indoctrinated in true Americanism. (...)

Display Ad 5 -- No Title
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 1, 1919. p. 1 (1 page)
   _Keep your Feet on the Ground_
(...)
   BABSON'S STATISTICAL ORGANIZATION

SOLIDITY OF TAMPA IMPRESSES VISITORS; BACKGROUND IS REAL; Much Industrial Development Seen; Surrounding Country Is Immensely Rich. RESOURCES OF BANKS GAIN $56,000,000 Makes More Clear Havana Cigars Than Does the Capital of Cuba.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 27, 1925. p. FDN5 (1 page):
   Tampa, Dec. 26.--"Hitch your wagon to a star" is a favorite admonition of the idealist.  It simply means to aim high.  "Keep your feet on the ground" is another bit of advice, not so alluring as the wagon-hitching phrase, but with more appeal to the person who has an eye on the eternal verities.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   (NOTE:  The "1889" MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT "hits" are mis-dated and removed--ed.)
Trenton Evening Times - 8/14/1920
...Success THE rules for golf arc KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE' GROUND; KEEP YOUR eye ON THE.....for success are YOUR-funtis-in-ihe baiilT; KEEP YOUR eye ON YOUR goal, And cany ON.....ESCAPE. THE Legislature having frowned ON THE propositiON that, THE State purchase.....side-tracked THE Whitman Home bill. THE Hick FIGHTING BLOOD. THE slogan of THE..
Trenton, New Jersey   Saturday, August 14, 1920  847 k

Gastonia Daily Gazette - 6/3/1920
...he an swered: "1 WOOD'S WORDS "KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND and YOUR eyes ON Cod.....American sailors reaching THEir unpracticed FEET for THE liar mils in Dirty I'lace, or.....with us came THE chief American port ON tin' cONtinent, to catch THE trade of THE.....here. If you are ambitious for YOURself or YOUR loved ONes, start an account..
Gastonia, North Carolina   Thursday, June 03, 1920  544 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/5/1921
...ONe.) DON't become a high flyer KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND. ;Reznor Gas' Heaters to.....hearing ON THE railroads' applicatiON to THE Railroad Labor Board for abrogatiON of.....Hard-ware and good service -Why not do YOUR IHppping at THE Big1 Warehou.: THE.....under THE guardianship of THE council. THE milk valued at is THE cONtributiON to THE..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Saturday, March 05, 1921  1028 k

Mountain Democrat - 2/4/1922
...serviceable. makes ha told her. "KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND, Snowbird; THE house is.....pace down THE ridge. Dan had to race to KEEP ap with her. But it waaut entirely wise.....And by THE tim> he had crawled ONe hundred FEET over THE snow crust THE whole structure.....THE citizens as a gymnasium and cONference GROUND. It was here that Plato purchased a..
Placerville, California   Saturday, February 04, 1922  865 k

Massillon Independent - 8/22/1895
...her lips vinemously an stampin her purty FEET ON THE GROUND. go away, woman, an dON't.....caji give, YOUR nii'.jfsty a hit of cord to KEEP THE crown sal'-. Mr. Mi chael. rournl jn.....breakfast an found his majesty sit wud his FEET in a tub of hot wr groaiiin mighty bard.....Tieruan should be threadiu 01 ench delicate GROUND, or perhaps it dhread that he was..
Massillon, Ohio   Thursday, August 22, 1895  815 k

Indianapolis Star - 3/6/1910
...that diabolical crank la. want to KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE soft pedal. You went to work.....him how glad I was to got my FEET ON THE GROUND again. f got out as best I could.....it's THE extraordinary circumstances that KEEP coming up that Jar you out of YOUR.....that hill, YOUR rear wheels are liable to KEEP ON going. That's what THEy call skidding..
Indianapolis, Indiana   Sunday, March 06, 1910  1188 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1896
...opiniON that preachers should KEEP both FEET ON THE GROUND and not strike a gait of.....life. "Now, all you have to do is to KEEP YOUR FEET cm THE pedals, and dON't hesitate.....accepted, and he was told to sit down and KEEP quiet until THE meeting adjourned. M.....Formerly he had THE hardest kind of work to KEEP his cONgregatiON awake, not to say..
Newark, Ohio   Sunday, August 02, 1896  878 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 06:31:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:31:40 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?,
 1913); Keep your nose clean (1877)
Message-ID: 

KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES

   Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand adopted it as the title for a series of cartoons published in the New York _Globe_ and other papers."
   I didn't expect to find anything earlier.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Ohio Democrat - 2/15/1894
...and THE Kniselys, when THEy can KEEP UP WITH THE SMITHS and THE Joneses. Our.....M. C. A. Lecture Course. March 9th, 1894, "UP THE Rhine and Oyer THE Major Henry C. Dane.....Directory shows THE names cf 30 .SMITHS, 30 Millers, 29 Joneses, and 28.....that stop THE paper WITHout settling UP: Take THE year you were born in and add..
New Philadelphia, Ohio   Thursday, February 15, 1894  900 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN

   Titelman has: "The proverb has been traced back to _Tragedy in E Flat_ by L. R. Gribble (1938)."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   FIFTY YEARS AGO; OR, THE CABINS OF THE WEST.; No. 3.
ROSELLA RICE. Arthur's Illustrated Home Magazine (1873-1879). Philadelphia: Mar 1875. Vol. 43, Iss. 3; p. 149 (6 pages)
(I didn't see it--ed.)

   The World of Humor.
Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Mar 19, 1881. Vol. Vol. 60., Iss. NO. 35.; p. 14 (1 page):
   A youth invested a dollar and a half in a New York firm to discover "How to appear well in society."  The receipt which he received by return mail was short, simple, and easily understood:  "Always keep your nose clean, and don't suck more than one finger at a time."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne News - 6/21/1919
...people's business." 'Advice. Just KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN and behave, ..And poverty .won't.....Gabb. "The Greecian replied Mr. Gabb. "The NOSE I admire most is the NOSE that is kept.....government warehouses "Why scheme about to KEEP this off the American market and send it.....who have such a lovely job in a nice, CLEAN hotel where we have the esteemed honor..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, June 21, 1919  820 k

Indiana Democrat - 5/31/1877
...anil easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't suc.k.more than one.....Proprietor. Ing all logs necessary to KEEP tlie mills well supplied with logs for.....run the risk. About this time my son read YOUR advertisement in our paper, a testimony.....VEUET1NE, and I recommend it to my friends. YOUR Vegetine ought to be In every family. My..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1877  791 k

Bridgeport Telegram - 10/1/1918
...t worry. 'i, KEEP YOUR feet warm. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN. Eat slowly. Do YOUR best. Mind.....JUST ftHD, REAUUY ONE MUST KEEP ABREAST OFTHE STVLE5? IT fRoh ME .THAT.....a swig out of a flask of his famous x 'NOSE Paint.' %vhat wonld the name of the.....of It. WHAT DO VA LUCK.? WORRIED BECAUJCT KEEP INS TULLER R HEALTH Anclrew F. Currier..
Bridgeport, Connecticut   Tuesday, October 01, 1918  773 k

Washington Post - 3/3/1921
...catarrh Relief so quickly. Adv. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN common colds are infectious and.....Is cash in Problems. Hew can parents best KEEP in touch with their children's school.....colds. Cold gisrUJB will not thrive In a NOSE that la kept i lean and wholesome. Mayr.....Head-CoUs. Iris Spleadu) Tn one iblnute YOUR doffed AOattlll Of en, the air passages..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Thursday, March 03, 1921  495 k

Herald And Torch Light - 7/18/1877
...and easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and do not suck morettaa one.....thc above is jus the thing yon want to KEEP YOUR Harness, Boots, Shoes and Buggy.....Think of it If you should hereafter whip YOUR child, I wish you could have YOUR..
Hagerstown, Maryland   Wednesday, July 18, 1877  1003 k

Coshocton Tribune - 3/3/1921
...is seriously iJi their home on KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN Common colds arp infectious and.....colds. Cold germs will not thrive in a NOSE that Is kept CLEAN and wholei some. Mayr.....break up colds, too It's comforting to KEEP it handy. Three sizes 35c. 70c, ?1.40.....all reliable pharmacists the country over. KEEP in mind the name. Dr. Carey's "Marshroot..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, March 03, 1921  598 k

Trenton Evening Times - 11/18/1920
...iT-c.rininp by nbnm'nnttii: ;f KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN until 1ft" n 'T v fa i No. lOdi B.....r "it to timt .thi K XTwent on With any "CLEAN-Up." l.-Birn.if d. ad. It would not Int.....CANDY .You .will be satisfied if you, buy YOUR Candy here. We have the largest.....town. Just Received The best candies marie, YOUR choice can easily be" mads from the..
Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, November 18, 1920  719 k

Olean Democrat - 8/25/1887
...and easily understood: "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't suck more than one.....which will come across the ocean. Leave YOUR orders for new Parlor and odd pieces..
Olean, New York   Thursday, August 25, 1887  679 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 07:17:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:17:53 -0500
Subject: Let the chips fall/fly where they may/will (1855)
Message-ID: 

   Gregory Titleman states:  "The allusion is to the lumber industry: the woodcutter continues to hew and ignores any small chips that fly around as a result.  The proverb was used by Senator Roscoe Conkling (1829-88) of New York in a speech supporting the nomination of Ulysses S. Grant for a third presidential term."  The date given for that is 1880.


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Print Source: Ruth Hall
Fern, Fanny,
New York : Mason Brothers, 1855.
Pg. 338:  "HOW are you, Walter," said Mr. Lewis, extending his hand; "fine day; how goes the world with you?  They say you are a man who dares to 'hew to the line, let the chips fly in whose face they will.' ..."
  (This is also on MAKING OF AMERICA-MICHIGAN--ed.)

Print Source: Nellie Brown, or, The jealous wife
Detter, Thomas.
San Francisco : Cuddy & Hughes, 1871.
Pg. 102:  It is my duty to guard well every outlet of society, as well as its avenues.  I shall this day hew to the line, let the chips fly in whose face they may.


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Diplomacy of the Sword: pp. 360-370
p. 362 1 match of 'let the chips'
  in: Title: The United States Democratic review. / Volume 43, Issue 2
Publisher: J.& H.G. Langley, etc. Publication Date: October 1859
City: New York
   But we are discussing general principles; we must "hew the line, let the chips fly where they will."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Portsmouth Times - 12/31/1859
...that may be tured, I will hew to THE Hoe, LET THE CHIPS fall where THEy may." I believe.....wish, since THE matter has found its way to THE public prints, to state to THE public.....on a careful examination of THE law on THE subject, it appears to be THE duty, of.....be planned to continue THE buHiner.1! with THE former pntronR of THE house, nnd THE..
Portsmouth, Ohio   Saturday, December 31, 1859  839 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 07:31:47 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:31:47 -0500
Subject: That's the way the cookie crumbles (1955)
Message-ID: 

   APS Online just went down for the night.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.
   I had posted 1956 for the crumbling cookie, but it crumbles earlier on Newspaperarchive.  Them's the crumbs.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Independent Record - 11/27/1955
...wnw SCRATCH, 6ETA JOB? BUTTHATS THE WAY THE COOKIE CRUMBLES. IT JUST SO HAPPENS LOOKING..
Helena, Montana   Sunday, November 27, 1955  709 k

Waterloo Daily Courier - 4/5/1945
...Delicious chocolate flavor covered COOKIE CRUMBLES 1 Per Package 83 California..
Waterloo, Iowa   Thursday, April 05, 1945  717 k

Zanesville Signal - 10/5/1956
...mop flops." And now: "That's the way the COOKIE CRUMBLES." We'll be very much..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, October 05, 1956  868 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 08:23:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:23:37 -0500
Subject: Mop Flops & Ball Bounces; Popcorn (verb)
Message-ID: 

MOP FLOPS & BALL BOUNCES

   Cookie crumbling companions.  Neither is in the OED?...The "ball bouncing" phrase appears to be from the Korean War...BALL BOUNCING OT: I wanted Xavier and St. Joes.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Mop flops")
Progress - 3/5/1956
...one of the children had "That's the way the MOP FLOPS" is added to expressions of Eastern..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania   Monday, March 05, 1956  823 k

Zanesville Signal - 10/5/1956
...can call it that, was: "That's the way the MOP FLOPS." And now: "That's the way the..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, October 05, 1956  868 k

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 3/18/1956
...school had no objection, home. I he way ihe MOP FLOPS" Plo-Moi' Glib McO I S is added to..
Great Bend, Kansas   Sunday, March 18, 1956  723 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Ball bounces")
Independent Record - 8/10/1952
...Freddy" is being pretty ready. "THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES" denotes luck. "Ricky tick" is.....America. Child's Garden Book A pleasant WAY to introduce chil dren to THE joys of.....assitting. THEy are convinced that THE only WAY that THEir aspectof THEir surgeon here.....voice, action, sight, wit and a debonair WAY about it. THINK of it? Why, THE whole..
Helena, Montana   Sunday, August 10, 1952  784 k

East Liverpool Review - 12/28/1952
...THE soldiers coined "That's THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES." meaning what was foredained to.....New wars, new speech. That's THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES. THEorists Unfrocked By Raymond.....out an alarm. But if he keeps singing THE WAY he has been singing THE last few days, he.....THEy urged THEir comrades to get on THE BALL; girl friends were Mam'selles or..
East Liverpool, Ohio   Sunday, December 28, 1952  713 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 10/30/1942
...bearing on it. In a tight game THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES is very important. It won't be a.....over THE 500 mark, E. Rasmussen showed THE WAY with 599. A team mate, E. Tess, ranked.....has averaged 6.7 yards in 18 times with THE BALL getting to THE 5-yard line on a 35-yard.....Hinkle, is replacing THE veteran all THE WAY. In addition to gaining representation..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin   Friday, October 30, 1942  945 k

Troy Record - 12/31/1943
...would probably all depend "on which WAY THE BALL BOUNCES." Coach Bill Alexander didn't.....Loop With Snyder and Rafferty showing THE WAY, THE Night Hawks took over first place in.....with Al Akins and Sam Robinson carrying THE BALL and passing. THE Trojans still were.....in 11 and Rafferty had ten to pave THE WAY for THE Night Hawks while McGrath had..
Troy, New York   Friday, December 31, 1943  876 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Georgia Tech Slight Choice Over Tulsans
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 31, 1943. p. 13 (1 page):
   Lowell (Red) Dawson, backfield mentor at Minnesota, wasn't so certain about his choice and said that it would probably all depend "on which way the ball bounces."

That's the Way the Ball Bounces'; The Allied Landings In this phrase is summed up the front-line philosophy of Sgt. Nedzweckas, a veteran of the Korean fighting from Inchon to today's stalemate. The Race to the Yalu The Winter of Retreat The Continuing Stalemate
By GEORGE BARRETT KOREA.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1952. p. SM14 (5 pages)

   WHERE'S MY HOME TOWN?
HERB BRIN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 3, 1952. p. A5 (1 page):
   But mailmen tell us our address is Pasadena 3 because, logically, that's the way the ball bounces.

U. N. KOREA TROOPS DEVELOP A 'LINGO'; Local and Japanese Words Form Part of Pidgin Tongue All Soldiers Understand
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1952. p. 4 (1 page):
   Another more or less fatalistic expression widely used is, "That's the way the ball bounces," meaning that's the way things are and there isn't much that you can do about it.

Well -- That's The Way the Ball Bounces
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 20, 1954. p. C4 (1 page)

---------------------------------------------------------------
POPCORN (VERB)

   "Ball bounces" is here, but this is too great not to share the whole thing.
   Andrew Smith (OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK) insists that I owe him a "turkey dog with ketchup," but I hope that the "popcorn" and "hamburger in the headline" here are equally filling.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Madison Avenue Gobbledygook; 'An Intimate Message From New York'
By Harry C. Kenney. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 11, 1955. p. 16 (1 page):
NEW YORK
   Recently at lunch with a Madison Avenue friend, I remarked that it had long been my desire to "do a piece" on the advertising man's lingo.  He replied: "Why don't you put some grease on the cat and see if it comes back."  Or, go ahead, "Maybe your compass is pointing true north."
   I no more than "dropped this idea down the well to see how big a splash it would make," when I received "over-the-transom," or unsolicited encouragement, in the form of "The Holiday Advertising Man's Diary."
   This booklet clearly illustrated that advertising people are not above smiling at their own foibles.  At the same time they are quick to point out that consumers are buying up the nation's productivity and that the Madison Avenues all over the country are largely responsible for it.
   So, after "swivel-chairing" and "popcorning" the idea around "the mill" for a few days, I decided to join "the boys" and let the King's English fall where it may and have some fun.
   Since the whole thing is "right off the top of my head"--it may not be a good idea--I decided to talk it over with Sir Boss.  But he was "in conference," (no one knew where he was).  But "that's the way the ball bounces."  Sometimes things don't go so good.
   It's too late to ask anyone to "rush in and put out the brush fire" or help, help!  So I'm going ahead under a "side-saddle opinion"--I'd rather not commit myself.  Thus this piece is what is known as a fishing trip or "Let's see what the client thinks."
   Of course Sir Boss could well "blow me out of the tub" for this--you and your ideas--but I took "a long look through the keyhole" and decided it could be "practicalized" into "dramatic plus" with everyone grabbing "the brass ring of success."
   The advertising man is a law-abiding citizen.  He usually owns a nice home, has children, votes, and attends PTA meetings.  But drop into his own Ad Alley and you have entered a new world.
   There are such crisp remarks as "circular-file that one"--drop it in the basket, it's not my idea.  "Better make a mother-in-law survey"--call home and see of anyone is watching television.  "I can't put my finger on it, but I don't think it will go"--I don't understand it.  "Let's get all our ducks in a row"--the client will be here in five minutes!
   Occasionally the top executive of an agency will rush back from a "snowed under" luncheon--one that took two hours--and call his men together on an account.  He has some conclusions: "A growing body of opinion" or two division managers agree that it is time for trying a "guinea pig for size."  Try it out on a small scale  before we get stuck on a big scale.
   Or he will say "Opinion is widely held"--meaning two division managers agree--that it is time to "send up a trial balloon and see which way the wind blows."  We'll get our client in a huddle and see if he is reading the advertising.
   Finally, "Opinion is unanimous."  The President thinks this is the answer.
   If you have an account on Madison Avenue, your product will be properly "kicked around, brooded over, and cross-polinated."  You can be sure there will be enough "hamburger in the headline" or plenty of sizzle.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 08:51:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:51:52 -0500
Subject: Inch/Cinch, Yard/Hard (1947); Lie can go around world... (1854)
Message-ID: 

INCH BY INCH, LIFE'S A CINCH; YARD BY YARD, LIFE IS HARD

   Gregory Titelman's first citation for this is 1992.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nevada State Journal - 10/14/1960
...guide on the wall: "YARD BY YARD Life HARD. INCH BY INCH It's A CINCH Robert Lehman, the.....from Georqe Solari on the kickoff. on the 3-YARD line, ami raced 97 YARDs lo the TD.....press my lips around his mouth and blow HARD. D. T.: Say. that chest really rises.....j mouth and nose. D. T.: And then you blow HARD? M. D.: No, gently Babies need only..
Reno, Nevada   Friday, October 14, 1960  630 k

Lima News - 5/27/1963
...HOMES INC. iTIt CROFT'S REMIND YOU LIFE IS HARD BY THE YARD BY THE inch It'sV cinch.....area's finest furniture stores resulted. THE store increased in size and scope with.....ThIS finely Yellow Directory EACH WEEK, tot THE Latest That Sipply THE Best Sales Alt I.....bnd parcel of Wierwille service throughout THE years. THE quality reupholstering and..
Lima, Ohio   Monday, May 27, 1963  525 k

Times - 3/20/1969
...Hammond. Women Present Lesson "BY THE YARD, LIFE IS HARD. BY THE inch, it's a was a.....were followed BY a general dIScussion BY THE members. Mrs. Hugh BISbee, President of.....and uncomfortable and THE moTHEr cancelled THE plans she and her husband had for THE.....philosophy for women offered BY Mrs. LouIS Mysse and Mrs. William Guse to..
Hammond, Indiana   Thursday, March 20, 1969  936 k

Lima News - 5/20/1963
...Monograming if CROFT'S REMIND YOU LIFE IS HARD BY THE YARD BY THE inch It's a cinch.....day living not just a status-symbol for THE few. Yes, Jim IS a young, old-timer in.....in past days. He has earned that respect BY doing all Jobs well and at a reasonable.....HOMES We need used models so we're giving THE Biggest Trade-In Allowances Ever Now IS..
Lima, Ohio   Monday, May 20, 1963  528 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Stretch Your Way To Slimness
By Ida Jean Kain. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1947. p. C3 (1 page):
   There's a little jingle that goes: By the yard, life is hard, by the inch, it's a cinch.

   Inching Along Is Best Way to Diet
By Ida Jean Kain. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Apr 23, 1954. p. 61 (1 page):
   THERE'S A BIT of verse that goes: "By the yard, life is hard.  By the inch, it's a cinch."

---------------------------------------------------------------
A LIE CAN GO AROUND THE WORLD AND BACK WHILE THE TRUTH IS LACING UP ITS BOOTS

   Titelman has this from 1859, but it's indicated at that time as an "old proverb."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Republican Compiler - 5/29/1854
...seven leagues while TRUTH is putting her BOOTS ON, "and the Democratic party has found.....United States and the British Provinces, LIE cuiux) out by the previous steamer. THIS.....many verificatiONs of this TRUTH in tho telegraphic reports of the.....asif to survey, when the baitories shots-. ON her and not' ON the truce, boat. ON the 2d..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Monday, May 29, 1854  1097 k


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
The Power of the Affirmative.
Scribner's Monthly (1870-1881). New York: Nov 1872. Vol. VOL. V, Iss. No. 1.; p. 118 (2 pages)
First page:  It is not necessary for truth to worry itself, even if a lie can run a league while it is putting on its boots.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Mar 29 13:06:26 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:06:26 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

From:    "Geoffrey S. Nathan" 

: A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
: Detroit Free Press:

: http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm

: I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of
: the issues we've been ruminating on.

A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.



Harry & David, for example. (Not to mention Davidia Online--which I'm not
sure is actually a brand name--and Davidon Homes.)

And all those Tiffanys being born right now are, I fear, not being named as
much after the jeweler as the annoying 80s singer.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Mar 29 14:36:35 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:35 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <00b601c4158e$ab13d700$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: 

> A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
> interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
> example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
> or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
> names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
> randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
> there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.

I know of at least one woman named "Saran" who is not named after the
plastic. I'm not sure when she was born, but it was definitely before 1953
when "Saran Wrap" hit the market. The OED2 has Dow using "Saran" in a 1940
patent application. This earlier use may predate the woman's birth, but use
of the term before 1953 would be pretty arcane and unlikely to be the source
of her name.

This website (http://www.bubbaboo.com/meaning-of-baby-names.asp?n=SARAN)
ascribes an African origin to "Saran," meaning joy. This is repeated in at
least one other baby names web site. "Saran" was also the name of a 4th
century Irish chief.

I'd go with the "Sarah Ann" explanation, myself.

As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 14:37:03 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:37:03 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913)
In-Reply-To: <267E4DDC.5A523896.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:31 AM -0500 3/29/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES
>
>    Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is
>unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand

obviously the source of the "Mom and Pop store"...

LH

>adopted it as the title for a series of cartoons published in the
>New York _Globe_ and other papers."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 14:58:53 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:58:53 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 6:36 AM -0800 3/29/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
>absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
>generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
>I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
>name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.
>
>--Dave Wilton
>   dave at wilton.net
>   http://www.wilton.net

I can support this claim from my own experience in selecting "Meryl"
for my daughter's name in '84, as previously noted.  There is, of
course, a continuum between "X was named after Y" and "X was named
partly as a result of the name being in the air through the celebrity
of Y".  In fact, the post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc evolution of the
expression "to be named after" underlines this.

Larry Horn


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Mon Mar 29 15:30:42 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:30:42 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

David and all:

It's quite possible that kids called "Saran" may "really" be Sarah Ann, but
the parents have a choice. . . "Saran" may sound more "feminine" or "new" to
some parents.  But if you name a child Lexus, as the Detroit Free Press says
seems to be h appening, then I think you are really "calling  up" the brand
name of the car..
Anne G

> : A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
> : Detroit Free Press:
>
> : http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm
>
> : I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of
> : the issues we've been ruminating on.
>
> A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
> interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
> example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
> or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
> names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
> randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
> there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.
>
> 
>
> Harry & David, for example. (Not to mention Davidia Online--which I'm not
> sure is actually a brand name--and Davidon Homes.)
>
> And all those Tiffanys being born right now are, I fear, not being named
as
> much after the jeweler as the annoying 80s singer.
>
> David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 15:36:54 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:36:54 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <001e01c415a2$cc734c50$ee68aa43@anne72onuhyx2f>
Message-ID: 

At 7:30 AM -0800 3/29/04, Anne Gilbert wrote:
>David and all:
>
>It's quite possible that kids called "Saran" may "really" be Sarah Ann, but
>the parents have a choice. . . "Saran" may sound more "feminine" or "new" to
>some parents.  But if you name a child Lexus, as the Detroit Free Press says
>seems to be h appening, then I think you are really "calling  up" the brand
>name of the car..
>Anne G
>
>>  : A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
>>  : Detroit Free Press:
>>
>  > : http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm
>>

First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the Freep?

Second, a general recommendation:  anyone on this list should opt for
"Lexis" over "Lexus".  Or, if it's twins, "Lexis" and "Nexis".

Larry


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 15:54:01 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:54:01 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403291536.AQX89589@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:36 AM 3/29/2004, Larry Horn wrote:

>First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the Freep?

On Sunday mornings we get a combined paper, but strictly speaking it was in
the Detroit News portion of the package. Since during the week we only get
the Freep I subconsciously generalized.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan 
Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology
Associate Professor, Department of English
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

C&IT Phone:  +313 577-1259
English Phone:  +313 577-8621
FAX:  +313 577-0404


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Mar 29 15:47:10 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:47:10 -0500
Subject: Astroturf
In-Reply-To: <1ef.1c943d88.2d98a7ab@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Senator Bentsen was fond of the new definition of astroturf and is
quoted many times in the various archives using before it seems to have
spread. An example a little earlier than Paul's first cite:

Aug. 7, 1985, Washington Post: "A fellow from Texas can tell the
difference between grass roots and Astro Turf," Sen. Lloyd Bentsen
(D-Tex.) said of his mountain of cards and letters from opponents of
the insurance provisions. "This is generated mail."

Grant

On Mar 28, 2004, at 17:11, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> astroturf
> (AS.troh.turf) n. A fake grass-roots movement.
> —astroturfing pp.
> Earliest Citation:
> Issue-oriented newspaper advertisements featuring clip-out coupons are
> often
> designed to show that the sponsor's goal has grass-roots support. But
> the
> "grass roots is AstroTurf in many cases, artificial turf," says Sen.
> Lloyd
> Bentsen, D-Texas. A case in point, in his view, is the recent ad
> campaign by the
> Distilled Spirits Council of the United States against increases in
> excise taxes
> on liquor. Bentsen reports that a third of the 190 coupons his office
> received
> were altered to express support for tax increases that the coupon says
> could
> raise the price of a bottle of liquor $2 and "put a lot of people in
> the
> beverage alcohol business out of work."
> —"Playing on astroturf," The National Journal, April 19, 1986


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Mar 29 15:57:24 2004
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:57:24 -0600
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403290958.25406839ac6b@rly-na03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Spellings are also influenced by celebrity names-- my name, Patti, was
spelled that way because of the popularity of singer Patti Page at the
time.  (my Mom even admits that  : )

(And it's NOT "Patricia," a fact which confounds people continually)

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University

laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 6:36 AM -0800 3/29/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>
>
>>As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
>>absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
>>generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
>>I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
>>name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.
>>
>>--Dave Wilton
>>  dave at wilton.net
>>  http://www.wilton.net
>>
>>
>
>I can support this claim from my own experience in selecting "Meryl"
>for my daughter's name in '84, as previously noted.  There is, of
>course, a continuum between "X was named after Y" and "X was named
>partly as a result of the name being in the air through the celebrity
>of Y".  In fact, the post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc evolution of the
>expression "to be named after" underlines this.
>
>Larry Horn
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 29 16:12:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:12:33 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <001e01c415a2$cc734c50$ee68aa43@anne72onuhyx2f>
Message-ID: 

>But if you name a child Lexus ....

This may be a special case. The line of reasoning goes like this. There are
a large number of women named Mercedes, including some (maybe minor)
'celebrities'. 'Clearly' they are named after a prestigious auto brand
(^_^). Then Lexus (resembling Alexis) would be good too ... also Porsche (=
Portia) ... maybe not BMW though.

Google for Lexus + actress, or Porsche + actress, and you can see actresses
with these names (not big mainstream stars maybe). So maybe in some cases
the names are taken from the actresses.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Mar 29 16:44:13 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:44:13 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040329110433.02f0c120@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

> Google for Lexus + actress, or Porsche + actress, and you can see
> actresses
> with these names (not big mainstream stars maybe). So maybe in some cases
> the names are taken from the actresses.
>
> -- Doug Wilson

IMDB searches on the first names "Porsche" and "Lexus" turn up only porn
stars. (Actually, there is one actress named Porsche who appeared in
"Revenge of the Calendar Girls," probably not porn by strict definition but
close enough.)

Also, "Madison" (discussed previously) turns out to be the name of three
different porn actresses.

Perhaps there is some kind of process where porn names go mainstream? Or do
porn stars tend to chose names that are on the cusp of fashionability?

(IMDB = Internet Movie Data Base; http://us.imdb.com; a great resource,
although occasionally inaccurate)

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:02:59 2004
From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:02:59 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <20040329164352.C6563AFAA6@alvin.haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said at
the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
came along - a Lexus.

Larissa


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Mon Mar 29 17:11:22 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:11:22 -0600
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Larissa H. Chen
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:03 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Brand naming kids
>
> A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said at
> the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
> came along - a Lexus.

I'm reminded of a similar joke from A Fish Called Wanda, using the name
Portia.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:19:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:19:55 -0500
Subject: guttural (was: "Astroturf")
In-Reply-To: <200403290502.i2T52M2f028579@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

        [James Landau:]
        >>>

and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural style---as
when he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"

(note on context: the article was about how Kerry's verbose speaking
style---"inability to put a period in his sentences"---was costing him.

The remark about Bush was for comparison of speaking styles and was not
a political comment.)

I can think of several adjectives to use here, starting with "blunt" and
going on to "Gary Cooperesque", but "guttural"?

        <<<

It's not clear from this quote whether the oddness, if any, is in
"guttural" or in "style". Is the writer commenting on Bush's words or on
his voice quality, perhaps in his utterance of the exact locution "dead
or alive"?  If the latter, "guttural" could be quite appropriate -- or
misused, but not novelly.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:38:41 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:38:41 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913)
Message-ID: 

I have read somewhere that the "Joneses" in question were the wealthy and very respectable early-mid 19thC NYC family, and that the expression was first used by a society dame with ambitions to be thought equally respectable.  Where I read this I do not now remember.

Edith Wharton was a Jones: Edith Newbold Jones.  As we horseplayers would put it, by a Jones, out of a Rhinelander.  You can't get more respectable than that.  One of the biographies of Wharton might give a source.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:31 am
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913); Keep your nose clean (1877)

> KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES
>
>   Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is
> unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand adopted it as the
> title for a series of cartoons published in the New York _Globe_
> and other papers."
>   I didn't expect to find anything earlier.
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Ohio Democrat - 2/15/1894
> ...and THE Kniselys, when THEy can KEEP UP WITH THE SMITHS and THE
> Joneses. Our.....M. C. A. Lecture Course. March 9th, 1894, "UP THE
> Rhine and Oyer THE Major Henry C. Dane.....Directory shows THE
> names cf 30 .SMITHS, 30 Millers, 29 Joneses, and 28.....that stop
> THE paper WITHout settling UP: Take THE year you were born in and
> add..New Philadelphia, Ohio   Thursday, February 15, 1894  900 k
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN
>
>   Titelman has: "The proverb has been traced back to _Tragedy in
> E Flat_ by L. R. Gribble (1938)."
>
>
> (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
>   FIFTY YEARS AGO; OR, THE CABINS OF THE WEST.; No. 3.
> ROSELLA RICE. Arthur's Illustrated Home Magazine (1873-1879).
> Philadelphia: Mar 1875. Vol. 43, Iss. 3; p. 149 (6 pages)
> (I didn't see it--ed.)
>
>   The World of Humor.
> Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Mar 19, 1881.
> Vol. Vol. 60., Iss. NO. 35.; p. 14 (1 page):
>   A youth invested a dollar and a half in a New York firm to
> discover "How to appear well in society."  The receipt which he
> received by return mail was short, simple, and easily understood:
> "Always keep your nose clean, and don't suck more than one finger
> at a time."
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Fort Wayne News - 6/21/1919
> ...people's business." 'Advice. Just KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN and
> behave, ..And poverty .won't.....Gabb. "The Greecian replied Mr.
> Gabb. "The NOSE I admire most is the NOSE that is
> kept.....government warehouses "Why scheme about to KEEP this off
> the American market and send it.....who have such a lovely job in
> a nice, CLEAN hotel where we have the esteemed honor..
> Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, June 21, 1919  820 k
>
> Indiana Democrat - 5/31/1877
> ...anil easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't
> suc.k.more than one.....Proprietor. Ing all logs necessary to KEEP
> tlie mills well supplied with logs for.....run the risk. About
> this time my son read YOUR advertisement in our paper, a
> testimony.....VEUET1NE, and I recommend it to my friends. YOUR
> Vegetine ought to be In every family. My..
> Indiana, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1877  791 k
>
> Bridgeport Telegram - 10/1/1918
> ...t worry. 'i, KEEP YOUR feet warm. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN. Eat
> slowly. Do YOUR best. Mind.....JUST ftHD, REAUUY ONE MUST KEEP
> ABREAST OFTHE STVLE5? IT fRoh ME .THAT.....a swig out of a flask
> of his famous x 'NOSE Paint.' %vhat wonld the name of the.....of
> It. WHAT DO VA LUCK.? WORRIED BECAUJCT KEEP INS TULLER R HEALTH
> Anclrew F. Currier..
> Bridgeport, Connecticut   Tuesday, October 01, 1918  773 k
>
> Washington Post - 3/3/1921
> ...catarrh Relief so quickly. Adv. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN common
> colds are infectious and.....Is cash in Problems. Hew can parents
> best KEEP in touch with their children's school.....colds. Cold
> gisrUJB will not thrive In a NOSE that la kept i lean and
> wholesome. Mayr.....Head-CoUs. Iris Spleadu) Tn one iblnute YOUR
> doffed AOattlll Of en, the air passages..
> Washington, District Of Columbia   Thursday, March 03, 1921  495 k
>
> Herald And Torch Light - 7/18/1877
> ...and easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and do not
> suck morettaa one.....thc above is jus the thing yon want to KEEP
> YOUR Harness, Boots, Shoes and Buggy.....Think of it If you should
> hereafter whip YOUR child, I wish you could have YOUR..
> Hagerstown, Maryland   Wednesday, July 18, 1877  1003 k
>
> Coshocton Tribune - 3/3/1921
> ...is seriously iJi their home on KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN Common
> colds arp infectious and.....colds. Cold germs will not thrive in
> a NOSE that Is kept CLEAN and wholei some. Mayr.....break up
> colds, too It's comforting to KEEP it handy. Three sizes 35c. 70c,
> ?1.40.....all reliable pharmacists the country over. KEEP in mind
> the name. Dr. Carey's "Marshroot..
> Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, March 03, 1921  598 k
>
> Trenton Evening Times - 11/18/1920
> ...iT-c.rininp by nbnm'nnttii: ;f KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN until 1ft"
> n 'T v fa i No. lOdi B.....r "it to timt .thi K XTwent on With any
> "CLEAN-Up." l.-Birn.if d. ad. It would not Int.....CANDY .You
> .will be satisfied if you, buy YOUR Candy here. We have the
> largest.....town. Just Received The best candies marie, YOUR
> choice can easily be" mads from the..
> Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, November 18, 1920  719 k
>
> Olean Democrat - 8/25/1887
> ...and easily understood: "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't
> suck more than one.....which will come across the ocean. Leave
> YOUR orders for new Parlor and odd pieces..
> Olean, New York   Thursday, August 25, 1887  679 k
>


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:40:44 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:40:44 -0800
Subject: Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
Message-ID: 

Frank Rich had this in his Times column yesterday and credited it to
the "Daily Show," but Barry showed that it goes back to 1993 in
Google Groups, and in a Nexis search, it shows up in an article in
the Sydney Morning Herald from July 26, 1991:

Like Keating, Australia at large felt a thrill of excitement and a
chill of dread when the war broke out. Our TV screens beamed urgent
US infoganda into our heads...

A July 6, 1995 article in Marketing used it as both a mass and count noun:

NatWest starts 'infoganda' ads
NatWest is planning to run news releases as ads in the national press
to head off what it sees as 'exaggerated criticism' of issues such as
executive pay and service standards. The 'infoganda'-type ads, which
will target NatWest's staff and core customer base, will also be used
to provide more detailed information about new product launches...
Running infogandas would, he said, give NatWest the chance to present
its side of the case and to communicate more positive news about the
bank.

This is the sort of item that's likely to have been independently
coined several times, particularly given the recent pattern of using
portmanteaux for the names of mixed genres, like  "infotainment" and
"docudrama"  (would these be called "genre benders"?). I wonder how
far back it really goes.

Geoff Nunberg


>Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:57:00 EST
>Reply-To:     American Dialect Society 
>Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List 
>From:         Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
>Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
>INFO-GANDA--50 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits
>INFOGANDA--14 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits
>
>
>    "Infoganda" (INFOrmation + propaGANDA) was mentioned on THE DAILY SHOW
>last night at 11 p.m.  Catch the repeat tonight at 7 p.m. if you missed it, on
>Comedy Central.
>    THE DAILY SHOW reported that the government produced its own fake news
>report about Medicare, and the "infoganda" made in on real tv news.
>"Fake news?"
>Jon Stewart asked his audience.  His "senior ethical correspondent" (everyone
>on the show is a senior correspondent) joked that their jobs were being
>threatened.
>    "Infoganda" is not on the Wordspy.  But one of these days it probably will
>be, and...I'll still get no credit.
>
>
>
>
>(GOOGLE GROUPS)
>Re: just for a laugh
>... The "symptoms" page is pretty weak, suggesting that one of the "warning
>signs"
>indicates a problem, but I've seen similar alcohol infoganda. -- -Mike List
>alt.drugs.pot - Dec 3, 1998 by Mike List - View Thread (9 articles)
>
>
>Re: Choosing snow tires
>... technical). They also carry other brands -- and their web page includes
>prices, FAQs, tips, and manufacturers' specs/infoganda. ...
>rec.autos.driving - Nov 13, 1996 by Wilderness Werkes! - View Thread (8
>articles)
>
>
>Re: Chilly Future for Boys (Take Your *CHILD* To Work Day)
>... that rationalized focusing on girls, and relegated boys to stay at school
>where
>they might feed on Ms.-Foundation nationally-sponsored infoganda: "What about
>...
>soc.men - Apr 19, 1995 by Tom Revay - View Thread (112 articles)
>
>
>Re: MS Access - alleged Btrieve importing ability (was: Is MS ...
>... It does have this ability... for Paradox 3.X Of course, I just upgraded
>to 4.0
>a few weeks ago, and none of the Access Infoganda mentioned this limitation.
>...
>comp.os.ms-windows.apps - Feb 2, 1993 by Philip Bohannon - View Thread (4
>articles)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 19:35:27 2004
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:35:27 -0500
Subject: guttural (was: "Astroturf")
Message-ID: 

Is it remotely possible that the writer was thinking of "gutter" language in writing "gutturall"?
- Allan Metcalf

>        [James Landau:]
>        >>>
>
> and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural
> style---as
> when he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Mar 29 21:18:56 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:18:56 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

When I was a kid, Megan was around, altho it was not common--this was in the late sixties and early seventies.  However, there were two pronunciations (I'm not sure Beverly's two pronunciations are the ones I remember): the one with [e] and one with [i:], i.e. [mi:g at n]  (meegun), which I never hear anymore.  I remember having to ask girls which pronunciation they went by.
The name that has intrigued me the most is 'Joshua.'  When I was a kid, NO ONE, abolutely no one, had that name. It was a name that only pioneers would have had.  It was so old fashioned that I couldn't even conceive anyone having it today.  Well, in the last 10-15 years, so many of my students have had it, I can't even begin to count them.  Why its popularity all of a sudden?
Fritz

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/25/04 12:07PM >>>
"Megan" is also variously spelled, I've noticed, sometimes with an 'h' (as
Meghan) and sometimes not.  I don't know if there's a correlation with the
tendency to lax the front vowel or not, but I always have to ask my
students, "Do you say [meg at n] or [mEg at n]?"  And then I have to explain why
I asked the question, which leads into phonetics and a nice lesson on IPA.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Mar 29 20:32:03 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:32:03 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of Allegra--way
before the medicinal use...


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Mar 29 23:21:23 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:21:23 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040329105121.01b22c68@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

And if you'll read all the way to the bottom of the piece, you'll see that
it isn't actually FROM either Detroit paper, viz.:

"Froma Harrop writes for the Providence Journal. Her column is distributed
by Creators Syndicate"

--On Monday, March 29, 2004 10:54 AM -0500 Geoff Nathan 
wrote:

> At 10:36 AM 3/29/2004, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>> First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the
>> Freep?
>
> On Sunday mornings we get a combined paper, but strictly speaking it was
> in the Detroit News portion of the package. Since during the week we only
> get the Freep I subconsciously generalized.
>
> Geoff
> Geoffrey S. Nathan 
> Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology
> Associate Professor, Department of English
> Wayne State University
> Detroit, MI, 48202
>
> C&IT Phone:  +313 577-1259
> English Phone:  +313 577-8621
> FAX:  +313 577-0404



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar 30 02:06:13 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:06:13 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403291314.1b845b2q83NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: 

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
>Subject:      Re: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>When I was a kid, Megan was around, altho it was not common--this
>was in the late sixties and early seventies.  However, there were
>two pronunciations (I'm not sure Beverly's two pronunciations are
>the ones I remember): the one with [e] and one with [i:], i.e.
>[mi:g at n]  (meegun), which I never hear anymore.  I remember having
>to ask girls which pronunciation they went by.

In Australia it's mostly pronounced meegun, I think.  In the US
mostly maygun - or such has been my experience.

>The name that has intrigued me the most is 'Joshua.'  When I was a
>kid, NO ONE, abolutely no one, had that name. ...

I think Biblical names ebb and flow but never really disappear -
though granted it would be hard to find an Ebeneezer nowadays.  I was
quite surprized when my cousin named her younger son Boaz.

Rima


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 02:48:40 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:48:40 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

>Poster:       David Bergdahl 
>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
>
>A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of
Allegra--way
>before the medicinal use...

The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
name:

Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
And Edith with golden hair.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
C&IT/English
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202
(313) 877-1259 (C&IT)
(313) 877-8621 (English)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 03:21:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:21:48 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <43125d1e.28f77a1f.8166b00@mirapointms3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:48 PM -0500 3/29/04, Geoffrey Nathan wrote:
>  >Poster:       David Bergdahl 
>>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------
>>
>>A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of
>Allegra--way
>>before the medicinal use...
>
>The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
>Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
>name:
>
>Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
>And Edith with golden hair.
>
Allegra was also the name of Lord Byron's daughter (1817-1822), who
had a short but eventful life, and was named way WAY before the
medicine.

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 30 06:21:08 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:21:08 EST
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good Deed
Message-ID: 

YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH
    
(OED)(This quotation is not here)
scratch, n.1
   b. The starting-point in a handicap of a competitor who receives no odds; 
sometimes colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also fig.; esp. in phr. 
from scratch, from a position of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., 
from nothing. 

  1867 Athlete for 1866, 9 W. Collett, scratch 1. 1876 Bicycle Jrnl. 18 Aug. 
7/1 Mr. Tom Sabin, of the Coventry Bicycle Club, has won, during last week, 
three races from scratch. 1886 Field 31 July 182/2 In the [lawn tennis] match 
between Messrs. G. Butler (owes 15) and E. A. Butler (scratch), the odd set 
again had to be resorted to. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 454 A poor foreign immigrant who 
started scratch as a stowaway and is now trying to turn an honest penny. 1936 
Economist 2 May 233/1 Nazi Germany, starting her rapid re-armament ‘from scratch
’ in 1933, was fortunate enough to have a surplus capacity in all sections of 
her heavy industries. 1939 ‘G. ORWELL’ Coming up for Air II. v. 103 We'd no 
fishing tackle of any kind, not even a pin or a bit of string. We had to start 
from scratch. 1953 S. KAUFFMANN Philanderer v. 77 He took one look at her and 
thought: If I want that, I must begin all over again right from scratch. 1957 
L. F. R. WILLIAMS State of Israel 53 Another branch of communications which 
has been built up from scratch to a degree of efficiency. 1962 Guardian 21 Mar. 
2/5 The whole Treasury block could..have been rebuilt from scratch for the 
money. 1978 Peace News 25 Aug. 7/2 The daily routine was a crash programme of 
tuition provided by civilians, mainly Russian or other Slavic emigrés, in 
Russian from scratch to A-level standard, which was achieved in 10 months. 1979 
Fortune 29 Jan. 77 NASA is not exactly starting from scratch out there in space; 
it is building on promising experiments done on prior space flights.
  
  
FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH--57 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits
SALAD + FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH--2 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
      
  
   It's in today's NEW YORK POST.  I'm surprised this is not more popular.
  
  
http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/22010.htm
But even those pathetic photo spreads are innocence itself when compared to 
her new, and low-as-you-can-go/desperate-as-it-gets TV porn flick for USA, 
"Call Me: The Rise and Fall of Heidi Fleiss." This high-school level "bio-pic" is 
so bad it's even an insult to Heidi Fleiss. 

It's not like you can't make great chicken salad from chicken scratch - 
remember all those great Amy Fisher flicks? 
   
---------------------------------------------------------------
NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED
    
   I had cited 1949, but that Newspaperarchive cite is from 1994.  Clare 
Boothe Luce said it (1957), but it looks like she didn't coin it.
  

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   RISING NEUTRALISM A HURDLE FOR NATO; Feeling of Less Urgency Also Is 
Symptomatic of Problems Facing West's Defense ANTI - AMERICANISM GROWS Teamwork Has 
Decreased at SHAPE Since Eisenhower Left as Commander 
By HANSON W. BALDWIN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 
13, 1953. p. 8 (1 page):
   As a Dutch official expressed it, "no good deed will ever remain 
unpunished."
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
News - 1/27/1953  
...he ascribes to a Dutch official, "NO GOOD DEED will ever remain 
-UNPUNISHED.....been much quoted as saying that what was GOOD for General Motors was 
GOOD for the.....one because for i years I thought what was GOOD for irinecl Ull 
Charge the country was.....rtyie and the lowest price. consistent with GOOD 
work. Entered at the postoffice at..
Frederick, Maryland   Tuesday, January 27, 1953  1032 k    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Washington Scene ....; A Solo Renunciation 
By George Dixon. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1957. p. A11 (1 page):
   Then, apparently feeling that she (Clare Boothe Luce--ed.)  was being too 
sparing of the vinegar, she epigrammicked:
   "It just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished."
  
Letters To the Editor
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 16, 1960. p. 14 
(1 page):
   Your conclusion can be reinforced with an old Swedish aphorism, "No good 
deed is ever left unpunsihed."
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO
    
(OED, revised)
36. colloq. monkey see, monkey do: commenting (freq. contemptuously) on an 
instance of unthinking imitation, or of learning or performing by rote. 

  1934 Z. N. HURSTON Jonah's Gourd Vine i. 24 You jes started tuh talk dat 
foolishness since you been hangin' 'round ole Mimms. Monkey see, monkey do. 1967 
E. PARTRIDGE Dict. Slang (ed. 6) Suppl. 1250/2 Monkey see, monkey do!, a 
Canadian (and U.S.) c[atch] p[hrase] ‘addressed to one who imitates the actions of 
another, or as a warning not to do such and such because someone (usually a 
child) might follow suit’. 1978 Maledicta 1977 1 273 Monkey see; monkey do. 
Elaborate precautions of Parisian couturiers could not curtail the spy. 1986 
Video Today Apr. 57/1 Buttons only identified by symbols so read instructions 
carefullya case of monkey see monkey do. 1995 Financial Post (Nexis) 22 June III. 
51 It's no secret the monkey-see-monkey-do NHL is hell-bent on transforming 
itself into the NBA.
     
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO"
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 22, 1923. p. 
II4 (1 page):
   The old saying of "monkey see, monkey do" is excellently exemplified here.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mansfield News - 1/4/1920  
...They raise the oa the bly MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO. vegetable ami mineral 
accretions..
Mansfield, Ohio   Sunday, January 04, 1920  718 k    

---------------------------------------------------------------
LIGHTNING NEVER STRIKES TWICE IN THE SAME PLACE
      
   Gregory Titelman writes: "The proverb has been traced back to P. H. Myers 
(1857)."

  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Tioga Eagle - 5/31/1855  
...may aive him a '-all. No mistake this time, LIGHTNING NEVER strikes one 
tree Prict pr Ton..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1855  939 k    

Agitator - 3/1/1855  
...rnay give him a call. No mistake this time. LIGHTNING NEVER strikes oho 
tree tJicie.....in the Art of Writing such as has NEVER before taken place, and 
will qualify..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, March 01, 1855  794 k    

Tioga Eagle - 1/18/1855  
...tha.t may him a CHII. No misiakc this time, LIGHTNING NEVER strikes one 
tree twite. Price..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, January 18, 1855  860 k    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
LOCK 'EM UP AND THROW AWAY THE KEY
  
   Gregory Titelman doesn't give a date; the first citation is 1989.  I had 
previously posted 1915.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Herald - 7/23/1901  
...Brazil I'd put him in THE bastile and THROW AWAY THE KEY. New Orleans 
TimesDemocrat.....to THE extent of a million or two he THROWs AWAY THE pocketplece 
he carried for luck and.....and perseverance. THE man 'who gives AWAY a 
million dollars has ceased to be a.....THE iron down with THE baud to give THE 
necessary polish to THE surface of THE..
Delphos, Ohio   Tuesday, July 23, 1901  853 k    
 
Trenton Evening Times - 6/22/1899  
...dc clares THE emperor might as well THROW AWAY THE KEY to THE door. 111 IM 
III 4M IN Ml.....THE change in THE commercial conditions of THE past two 
years, and with THE diversity of.....next month, and Trenton should sec that THE 
delegates get THE best in THE house. THE.....of THE few men who can keep THEir 
ear to THE ground and THE'ir mouth to THE megaphone..
Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, June 22, 1899  539 k    
 
Burlington Weekly Hawkeye - 4/25/1863  
...afraid to nab a Judge1, lock him up, THROW AWAY THE KEY, and tell him to 
go tc Old Harry.....or not. "You ought not. to THROW AWAY THE uountrv because 
you don't like THE.....in THE war. Secondly: T must i.ot THROW AWAY my 
Government be cause I don't .like.....do not i THE ruler. Abraham Lincoln must s AWAY 
after a willie; but THE goveriint must..
Burlington, Iowa   Saturday, April 25, 1863  856 k    

New Oxford Item - 3/25/1892  
...vrith being. Juut lock it up and THROW AWAY THE KEY, and it will be found 
as.....Medicine Co., Lynn, Mass-., are giving AWAY a beautiful illustrated, 
book, to Health.....able to resist THE attacks of disease or THE shock of 
injuries and operations than.....while on THE lower arm it points upward, THE 
apparent purpose being to shed THE raio..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania   Friday, March 25, 1892  672 k    

New Era - 2/22/1899  
...icy trunk, yon see, And lock it, and THROW AWAY THE KEY'11 Peai-son's 
Weekly. Cure.....Boy's home I can beat my vray through THE AWAY a, vray till I'm 
out o' breath, To THE.....THE Toy Drum said: 4ilrve a hardened head. AWAY on my 
sticks I'll go Fi'Om this lev home.....warm, and gives birth tc THE idea that 
THE internal fires of THE earth arc to THE..
Humeston, Iowa   Wednesday, February 22, 1899  849 k    

Oshkosh Northwestern - 1/13/1883  
...50 cents. Tee case was locked and we THROW AWAY THE KEY, I happened to be 
THE Viking for.....when THE walls fell, had started to THROW up his arms when 
THE hot bricks rained.....THE hardened workmen to recoil and run AWAY from 
sheer sickness and terror. THE.....in THE box with THE places. A hotel KEY 
.brought out with THE remains showed that..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Saturday, January 13, 1883  710 k    

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 8/8/1899  
...Litehfield citixons say THEy will THROW AWAY THE KEY and everything will 
go during.....to assist in building up THE town and THROW cold water on THE 
efforts of those who.....secured from wholesale dealers to be given AWAY, prizes, 
and still more are to come.....THE federal treasury for THE first month of 
THE present fiscal year. One would think THE..
Edwardsville, Illinois   Tuesday, August 08, 1899  695 k    


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Mar 30 12:36:53 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:36:53 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

From:    "Larissa H. Chen" 

: A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said
: at the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
: came along - a Lexus.

I still remember a class where I was teaching about different kinds of
aphasias, and didn't make the connection until afterward that the woman in
the class named Alexia had a rather unfortunate name for a Lx major.

 I'm more used to killing threads than spawning much
(non-argumentative) discussion--nice change. 

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 17:11:33 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:11:33 -0500
Subject: "Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease"
In-Reply-To: <200403201642.i2KGg7te022170@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

The expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is often said to derive
from a supposed poem by humorist Josh Billings, ca. 1870.  Bartlett's
Familiar Quotations gives the quotation as follows:

The wheel that squeaks the loudest
Is the one that gets the grease.

Bartlett's titles the poem "The Kicker" but gives no dating.  I have been
unable to find any such poem.  Can Barry or Sam or anyone else shed any
light on the origins or earliest findable usage of this expression?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Mar 30 17:39:15 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:39:15 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403300500.i2U50E2f010487@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

        [David Bergdahl:]
A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of Allegra--way
before the medicinal use...

        [Geoffrey Nathan:]
The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
name:

Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
And Edith with golden hair.

        [Laurence Horn:]
Allegra was also the name of Lord Byron's daughter (1817-1822), who
had a short but eventful life, and was named way WAY before the
medicine.

        <<<<
No surprise in any of these, especially the Longfellow, when you take
into account that "allegra" is Italian for 'cheerful', adj.f.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 30 20:43:18 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:43:18 EST
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

In a message dated  Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:35 -0800,  Dave Wilton
 writes:

>  I know of at least one woman named "Saran" who is not named after the
>  plastic. I'm not sure when she was born, but it was definitely before 1953
>  when "Saran Wrap" hit the market. The OED2 has Dow using "Saran" in a 1940
>  patent application. This earlier use may predate the woman's birth, but use
>  of the term before 1953 would be pretty arcane and unlikely to be the
source
>  of her name.
>
>  This website (http://www.bubbaboo.com/meaning-of-baby-names.asp?n=SARAN)
>  ascribes an African origin to "Saran," meaning joy. This is repeated in at
>  least one other baby names web site. "Saran" was also the name of a 4th
>  century Irish chief.

I once worked with a black woman named "Saranne Dix".  She was born sometime
between 1945 and 1950.  Unfortunately I never asked her about the origin of
her given name.

She was the victim of a classic case of miscommunication.  She owned a boat.
One day a coworker took down a phone message "Saranne, please call your
marina.  Urgent".  Then he thought, "there's only one reason your marina needs you
in  a hurry" and gratuitously added to the message "Your boat sank".  Poor
Saranne almost had a heart attack, but fortunately it turned out the marina had
"merely" lost her rent check.

Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer Gottlieb
Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named "the Mercedes
Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one founded by
Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic Age of
American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page 217].

The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey, who is
not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in 1950.
(Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).

I seriously doubt that the writer Ford Maddox Ford or the comedian Ford
Sterling (of the Keystone Kops) was named after the automobile.  I don't know about
"Chevy Chase" (is that his real name or a pseudonym?), which could be from
the Washington DC suburb of Chevy Chase, Maryland.

"Boaz" or "Boas" is the surname of a well-known anthropologist and also of a
mathermatician (the latter revealed that "Nicolas Bourbaki" did not exist,
only to have the mathematicians who wrote under that pseudonym claim that Boas
did not exist.)

      - Jim Landau

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.


From nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET  Tue Mar 30 22:20:12 2004
From: nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET (Nathaniel Thomas)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:20:12 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <20040330204327.C581A8D640D@mail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: 

Well, there is the love interest of "The Count of Monte Cristo" by
Alexandre Dumas who is named Mercedes.  So perhaps girls named Mercedes
prior to the car company becoming prominent were named after her.  I've
no idea if it was a traditional or popular name anywhere, though
perhaps in Monte Cristo :-) (haven't read the book, I just remembered
the reference from "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" in one of
Stephen Dedalus' fantasies, and quickly checked the Gutenberg version
of "Count")

Nathaniel Thomas
nathanielt at airpost.net

On Mar 30, 2004, at 3:43 PM, James A. Landau wrote:

> Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer
> Gottlieb
> Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named
> "the Mercedes
> Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one
> founded by
> Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic
> Age of
> American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page
> 217].
>
> The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey,
> who is
> not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
> 1950.
> (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Mar 30 22:52:03 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:52:03 -0800
Subject: Mercedes (Was: Brand naming kids)
In-Reply-To: <6951EA0C-8298-11D8-AB19-000A27B3213A@airpost.net>
Message-ID: 

As far as I know, it's a fairly common name in Spain, and probably
elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world as well.  I've known one Spanish
woman named Mercedes, and I've heard of others.  There's certainly nothing
new about it.  According to my old AHD, it's a shortened form of Maria de
Mercedes, 'Mary of Mercies'.

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:20 PM -0500 Nathaniel Thomas
 wrote:

> Well, there is the love interest of "The Count of Monte Cristo" by
> Alexandre Dumas who is named Mercedes.  So perhaps girls named Mercedes
> prior to the car company becoming prominent were named after her.  I've
> no idea if it was a traditional or popular name anywhere, though
> perhaps in Monte Cristo :-) (haven't read the book, I just remembered
> the reference from "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" in one of
> Stephen Dedalus' fantasies, and quickly checked the Gutenberg version
> of "Count")
>
> Nathaniel Thomas
> nathanielt at airpost.net
>
> On Mar 30, 2004, at 3:43 PM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>> Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer
>> Gottlieb
>> Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named
>> "the Mercedes
>> Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one
>> founded by
>> Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic
>> Age of
>> American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page
>> 217].
>>
>> The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey,
>> who is
>> not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
>> 1950.
>> (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Tue Mar 30 23:01:59 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:01:59 -0600
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?
Message-ID: 

(Hoping I didn't trigger anyone's email filter)

I don't have access to any of the wonderful books I see cited here, and a
friend asked me where this phrase might originated.  I didn't find anything
in the ADS email archives.

Thanks for any leads,

Bill Le May
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Mar 30 23:11:18 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:11:18 -0500
Subject: Ford Maddox Ford
Message-ID: 

Ford Maddox Hueffner changed his name during WW1 when anti-German sentiment
wracked Brits as well as Americans.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Mar 30 23:25:10 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:25:10 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <1ec.1c95435a.2d9a6bd4@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH

I've never heard this presumably euphemistic version with "scratch". Is the
noun "scratch" supposed to have a meaning here, or is it just something
that (sort of) goes with chicken for bowdlerization purposes?

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar 30 23:37:11 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:37:11 -0500
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Le May" 
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?


> I don't have access to any of the wonderful books I see cited here, and a
> friend asked me where this phrase might originated.  I didn't find
anything
> in the ADS email archives.

Then you should bookmark a site--
http://alt-usage-english.org/concordance_interface.shtml

This wonderful work has an index which will link you in many cases to online
answers on words and phrases, in this case
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000308 Jesse Sheidlower's
old office.  And your answer.

The other sources on that main site that are trustworthy are
http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.php , member Michael Quinion's great
work, http://www.wordorigins.org/homepage.htm#search member Dave Wilton's
equally fascinating page, and http://www.word-detective.com/index.html, the
home of member Evan Morris, another solid page writer.
I hesitate to tell you to trust everything you find on  pages other than
those four.    If I overlooked anyone, I apologize.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 31 00:32:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:32:07 EST
Subject: Pep & Vinegar (1915), Pickles & Vinegar (no "piss")
Message-ID: 

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000308
The trouble with discussing this phrase is the "shedding light on it" part.
The Oxford English Dictionary's earliest citation for it is from its 1942
mention in The American Thesaurus of Slang by Berrey & Van Den Bark, but we have a
citation in our files from Steinbeck's 1938 The Grapes of Wrath: "'How ya
keepin' yaself?' 'Full a piss an' vinegar.'" If Steinbeck had a character use a
phrase in speech and didn't gloss it, then the phrase had to have already been
familiar for some time before he recorded it. There are also plenty of
citations going forward from that date, all the way up to Bart's declaration in a 1994
episode of The Simpsons: "I'm full of piss and vinegar."

However, we still haven't turned up anything earlier than the Steinbeck
citation, which makes it hard to know where the phrase comes from. There is
certainly a similar expression with the identical meaning, "full of beans," which
goes back to 1854. There's an expression "full of piss and wind" which means
'full of blustering talk; pretentious' that dates to 1922. There's also Kyne's
"He's full of pep and vinegar" (They Also Serve, 1927) that may indicate a
euphemistic treatment of "piss"; certainly the sense of vinegar alone meaning
'vitality' was already part of campus slang in the 1920s.

It could just be that the 1920s provenances of vinegar meaning 'vim',"piss
and wind," and "pep and vinegar" all combine to mean that some slick-haired
co-ed came up with the combination of pungent liquids in the expression. In fact,
they've been combined before: there is an expression "to piss vinegar" that
goes back to 1602, meaning 'to be miserly'. This gave rise to the 18th-century
"vinegar-pisser," a 'miser'. If there is any connection between these meanings
and piss-and-vinegar vitality, it seems exactly the sort that a college
student might make.

Wendalyn


   We have earlier than 1927 for "pep and vinegar."  It's at least from 1915.
 (Also, search for the full "pepper and vinegar.")
   I would mention the word combination "pickles and vinegar."  A few
citations are given below.  It may not be relevant, but it's another "p-- and
vinegar."


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne News - 11/30/1915
...west minois for a lot of youngsters with PEP AND VINEGAR. THE PROTESTANT
LEAGUE.....Mr. AND Mrs. W. H. Brindle AND Miss Dot AND Harold Zwissig spent
Thursday with Mr.....Do well. Mr. AND Mrs. A. C. Baker AND Mr. AND Mrs. J. O.
Logan spent Thursday with Mr.....Bloomington, Ind. Mr. AND Mrs. Myrtle Woods AND
Miss Ruby Meyerg spent Saturday AND..
Fort Wayne, Indiana Tuesday, November 30, 1915  927 k

Woodland Daily Democrat - 1/11/1919
...AND OverlAND joy cars is brim full of PEP AND VINEGAR ouar prospects for
1919, AND the.....Travis ant family AND Mrs. Jas. W. Travis AND son, Mr. AND
Ifrs. C. Li. Lowrey, Mr. AND.....about face, be happy that victory is ours, AND
get our full share of business AND.....services at 11. This is the roll-call
AND election of officers day, AND a full..
Woodland, California Saturday, January 11, 1919  523 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 11/24/1928
...monkey" suits --everybody is. bubbling with PEP AND VINEGAR." "OEddie"
iCotal'sleg injury.....AND a good punch. Monte seldom could AND a solid blow
while the German hit" hard.....for his fights. .AND quit training, boxing AND road
work. Wisconsin AND Purdue are about.....will bear burden of ball totting
again AND be assisted Gehrman AND Jacobs will other..
Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, November 24, 1928  1195 k

clearfield_progress_ - 5/23/1925
...Drive Of American Legion Needs Some PEP AND VINEGAR The present membership
drive.....ed. Every man AND woman who has be added PEP to start this final
lap, cles are hard.....probable that he would risk coming to earth AND plant a
flag AND claim the lAND in the.....region. Authorities well versed in weather
AND sea conditions AND the frozen north..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 23, 1925  704 k

Woodland Daily Democrat - 3/4/1919
...county baseball i league would arouse more PEP AND VINEGAR than all the
Coast AND Trolt.....team to play here, there or anywhere. Harry AND Bill Holmes
AND Dewey Killian, champion.....Esparto victory; Frank Nlssen, Tom McCants AND
Paul Stephens, guards invincible; AND.....may spring a Willie Ritchie on the
boys AND come-back, although he officially AND..
Woodland, California Tuesday, March 04, 1919  504 k



(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Stevens Point Daily Journal - 4/16/1881
...Good coffee for 15 ceats at Stone's. Good PICKLES AND VINEGAR at Stone's.
Good apples.....nuw maple sugar at Stone's. Late at Mixed PICKLES by the pint,
quart or gal lon. Choice.....pied by Potter Bro.'s, grocery AND boot AND sooe
store AND H 'B Martin's drug AND.....acres, Lyman. Elizabeth G., Hiram li.
AND Hettie M. Little AND Ella N. AND Lizzie L..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, April 16, 1881  750 k

Stevens Point Journal - 9/15/1906
...been ascertained by ment that ft dier of PICKLES AND VINEGAR, If persisted
in Ions.....AND a girl aged one AND one-half years, AND then went to the home
of a neighbor AND.....on my ehest AND body AND extend upwards AND downwards,
so that my neck AND face were.....denatured alcohol costs 20 cents a gallon,
AND it is used for beat, light AND motors..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, September 15, 1906  792 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 7/15/1884
...miXi AND' put in tiiu cucumbers AND PICKLES AND VINEGAR to getlier, but.
will.....tho PICKLES an large they may bo quartered, AND tin VINEGAR will
strike through them.....AND put them in a jar, AND turn on the VINEGAR. Take. half
as ninny sugar its.....of inino tells me Urn she prcparc-s all PICKLES for the
table AND puts them up in..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, July 15, 1884  1309 k

Sandusky Star - 9/14/1904
...Tea, bread AND butter, cold meats, PICKLES AND VINEGAR ad lib. SUPPER AT
8. Gruel, bread.....vegetable, suet pudding AND on Thursdays AND Sundays plum
pudding AND apples AND.....hydants at Bennett Bros.' Lumber Co., Depot AND Camp
streets, AND Mills AND Adams streets.....of rear entries AND alleyways,
electric AND other wires over roofs, AND generally..
Sandusky, Ohio Wednesday, September 14, 1904  564 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 5/16/1962
...Heinz of HollAND has been manufacturing i PICKLES AND VINEGAR in this
"Tulip" community.....selling tomatoes. Americans are eating more PICKLES AND
pickle relishes than ever before.....to the cucumbers, of course, are the VINEGAR,
salt, sugar, AND the spices AND.....In recent years the sale of PICKLES AND
relishes has risen five times as..
Holland, Michigan Wednesday, May 16, 1962  888 k

Nevada State Journal - 4/22/1942
...Tarragon Leaves used to flavor salads, PICKLES AND VINEGAR, Testing
Reveals Milk.....AND meat sauces, Muslard Seed used for PICKLES. Mint, Used lo
flavor meal sauces AND.....Dill Seed AND leaves used in making dill PICKLES, in
omelets AND salads.....AND oil fuels, grass AND brush near barns AND haystacks,
farm equipment, AND..
Reno, Nevada Wednesday, April 22, 1942  846 k


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 31 01:02:11 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:02:11 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040330181828.02f14750@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH
>
>I've never heard this presumably euphemistic version with "scratch". Is the
>noun "scratch" supposed to have a meaning here, or is it just something
>that (sort of) goes with chicken for bowdlerization purposes?
>
>-- Doug Wilson
~~~~~~~~~
Are you assuming that _shit_ is the hidden meaning here?  "Chicken scratch"
refers to chicken feed  which is spread on the ground and for which the
chickens scratch.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 31 01:40:28 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:40:28 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Are you assuming that _shit_ is the hidden meaning here?  "Chicken scratch"
>refers to chicken feed  which is spread on the ground and for which the
>chickens scratch.

Thanks. I learn something every day (and forget two things, probably). Now
I see "scratch" = "scratch feed" in some (not all) large dictionaries, and
DARE even shows an example of "chicken scratch".

To this city boy, "chicken scratch" usually refers to handwriting.

I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit". I think I've heard it
once or twice with something else too, but I can't remember what, maybe
"feathers" or so, not "scratch".

-- Doug Wilson


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Mar 31 03:31:17 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:31:17 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:40:28 -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" 
writes:

> I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit".

"Boys, I may not know much, but I know chicken shit from chicken salad."
LBJ talking about Nixon's Checkers speech, 24 September 1952.

I have that taped to my computer monitor, along with "dir a: > prn" and "
"Klaatu barada nikto."  Eclectic.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 31 04:15:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:15:40 -0500
Subject: "Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>The wheel that squeaks the loudest
>Is the one that gets the grease.

I find it quoted this way in a newspaper from 1913.

If one does a digital search of Billings' work, one must be careful of
Billings' grotesque spellings: "wheel" is safe, I think, but I don't know
how he would have spelled "skweeks" or "greese" ... or "kikker". I searched
what I could find on-line, with no luck.

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 31 05:02:35 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:02:35 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20origin=20of=20slur-?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-horizontal=20Oriental=20vagina?=
Message-ID: 

My father came back from China after WWII and indicated that this myth was
very much alive among sailors in the early 1940s. How much farther back it goes,
I don't know.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Mar 31 14:37:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:37:55 -0500
Subject: Ford Madox Ford
Message-ID: 

David Bergdahl  writes:

>Ford Maddox Hueffner changed his name during WW1 when anti-German
>sentiment wracked Brits as well as Americans.

That's "Madox", with one 'd'.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Mar 31 14:42:58 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:42:58 -0500
Subject: Mercedes (Was: Brand naming kids)
In-Reply-To: <200403310503.i2V53Y2f023934@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jim Landau advises:

The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey, who
is not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
1950. (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).

        ======

Nicknamed "Misty" among fen. I've tried her books a couple times.  Some
people can't put 'em down; I can't pick 'em up. She's collaborated with
Leslie Fish (salaam! salaam!) on a number of good songs, though:  lyric
by Lackey, music by Fish. We often call 'em "Lackeyfish". That goes
along with at least one other "X/Fish" pair term: Kipplefish, where X =
Kipling. Leslie's done a whole volume / tape of those, titled "Cold
Iron".

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
   http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 31 15:47:01 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:01 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040330203000.02f16610@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

(from Bapopik:
>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH<)
~~~~~~~~
 - Doug Wilson writes:
>
>I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit". I think I've heard it
>once or twice with something else too, but I can't remember what, maybe
>"feathers" or so, not "scratch".
 ~~~~~~~~~~
Since this is a play on the frequently-used expression to "make [something]
from scratch," (i.e., make it from basic ingredients instead of a
packaged, prepared mix, or other dodge)  it loses its point by substituting
"feathers" or "shit" or "feed."
A. Murie


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Fri Mar  5 03:03:47 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:03:47 -0500
Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945)
Message-ID: 

Barry Popik wrote:

>Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest
>Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37:
>
>_AN ENDLESS TALE_
>
>"That's tough!"
>"What's tough?"
>"Life."
>"What's life?"
>"A magazine."
>"Where d'you get it?"
>"Drugstore."
>"What's it cost?"
>"A dime."
>"shucks, I only got a nickel."
>"That's tough.
>"What's tough?" (etc.)

This sequence is part of my father's repertoire (done with my mother,
though she never initiated a routine), and I have always assumed it came
from his childhood (b.1924), probably from a 1930s radio show.  I'll try to
remember to ask him if he knows a source (radio or otherwise).  Just now,
the only similar (2-person) routine of his which comes to mind is a pretty
trivial one, which he  would launch into (expecting my mother to follow)
whenever someone happened to utter the number 73 (or 74) out loud.  My
father would quickly follow up with the next number (say, 74), after which
my mother would say the next number (75), then my father would call '76!'
and my mother would respond, 'That's the Spirit!' (starting from an
original 74, of course, my father would end up with the punch line).  I
also assumed that this was a radio routine, since my father launched into
it so automatically if the situation was appropriate (i.e., he wouldn't do
it in church if hymn #73 was announced, but he might if he was at an
airport and the departure of 'flight 73' was announced).  Good thing I
wasn't living with my folks in 1973/74....

Some early radio routines were probably first performed live on the
vaudeville stage. My father's father was a vaudeville stage hand, so it's
possible some of my dad's 'material' came from there.

One of his favorite all-purpose, one-person mini-recitations (which we kids
came to dislike due to overexposure, if nothing else):

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today;
Oh, how I wish he'd go away!

Rightly or wrongly, I associate all of these (and various others) with the
radio/vaudeville material of the 1930s and early 1940s, which certainly
must have included material from (much) earlier sources.

oops, just remembered another two-person routine:

#1  You know Jane Howland?
#2  What's her name?
#1  Who?
#2  Jane Howland.
#1  Never heard of her.
(cue music, usually excerpt from Stars & Stripes Forever)

Michael McKernan


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Sun Mar  7 02:17:12 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:17:12 -0500
Subject: shindig
Message-ID: 

Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old!  But I was expressing
>surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig."  Disco
>was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for
>that).  But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term!

I evidently missed the previous post on 'shindig' but if it matters to
anyone, I have the following citation handy:

Saturday, December 21, 1878 Rochester Indiana The Rochester Sentinel
> Last week a shindig was given at Widow DICKERHOFF's in honor of one
>NEAISWANGER...
http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape
rs%201878.htm

If I have this, without ever having looked for it (before), surely someone
else has found something earlier...please let me know, since I don't have
any of the standard references handy.

Michael McKernan


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Sun Mar  7 19:38:10 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:38:10 -0500
Subject: solid oysters
Message-ID: 

In the course of my research on historical USA oyster foodways, I've come
across the term 'solid oysters' (meaning 'shucked oysters', typically in
the context of being packed for wholesale or retail sale by the pint,
quart, gallon, or, as in the citation below, keg).

I have a January 9, 1857 citation from the New York Tribune, quoted at:
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/6/79.06.03.x.html

>After depositing the requisite number of "solid oysters," as they are
>termed, in each package, a pipe conveying fresh water is applied, and the
>vacant apace filled with nature's beverage, the bungs placed and driven
>home, when it is ready to be shipped.

I also have other citations extending into the 1880s.

Any additional data would be much appreciated.

Michael McKernan


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Mar  1 00:49:58 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:49:58 -0600
Subject: Spending a British Currency Unit,
 was: Re: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question)
Message-ID: 

6 years ago in Harrod's it was a pound to use the loo. Coin operated doors
to a luxury men's room with attendant.  If you were a shopper, rather than a
tourist, the clerk (clark?) would give you a token.
----- Original Message -----


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Mar  1 01:06:07 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:06:07 -0500
Subject: stoopnagle
Message-ID: 

My dad always called someone this in the 1950's when they acted in a dumb way.  

This term must have come from the radio show "Colonel Stoopnagle and Budd" from 1930's.

Has any publication picked up on the slang sense of the term--stoopnagle=stupid person?

Sam Clements


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Mar  1 01:22:59 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:22:59 -0800
Subject: live by the dictionary or submit!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit!
From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote:

> Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region".  In
> Ontario (the
> real one, not that town south of you, Arnold),

i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario.  anyway, that other
ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live
in.

>  region is used frequently to
> refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie
> region,
> or the region of Oshawa.  Last fall while at our cottage we heard a
> London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had
> happened
> "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to
> us (I'm
> from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central
> Indiana).

"in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but,
really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english).

there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as
serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three
times.  a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been
"the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area".

but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)"
that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the
u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway to
take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond),
and so on.

just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and
also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the
same.


From Jerryekane at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 01:12:50 2004
From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry Kane)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:12:50 EST
Subject: Subject:      Re: "Make like a tree and leave"
Message-ID: 

I was born in Los Angeles in 1942.  I always heard and used "make like a tree
and leaf".

Jerry Kane


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Mar  1 01:28:00 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:00 -0600
Subject: Fwd: cialis
Message-ID: 

To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was
discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that
Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger."

    But what about "cialis"?

Gerald Cohen


>Date:         Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:46 -0600
>From: callary ed 
>Subject: cialis
>To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>
>Does anyone know the story behind the creation of the brand name Cialis,
>which joinv Viagra and Levitra in the "ED" market?
>
>Viagra is easily evocative with connotations of vim, vigor and vitality
>with the image of Niagra Falls in the background, and Levitra has
>association with Elevation, Levitation, and the like, but Cialis?
>
>***********************************************************************
>Edward Callary                      Phone: 815-753-6627
>English Department                  email: ecallary at niu.edu
>Northern Illinois University        FAX: 815-753-0606
>DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
>***********************************************************************


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Mar  1 01:29:30 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:29:30 -0600
Subject: Brunch (1896); Dime (1995)---(Question; possible answer)
Message-ID: 

Last week I asked about the connection between an assist in
basketball and a dime. I'll now try to answer my own question. During
the Depression there was a  popular song "Brother, Can You Spare a
Dime?" I.e., Brother, can you help me? Maybe the giving of a dime to
someone down on his luck provided the inspiration for "dime = assist
(in basketball)."

Gerald Cohen

>At 9:54 AM -0500 2/27/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>
>>THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
>>April 2, 1993, Friday, HOME FINAL EDITION
>>SECTION: SPORTS DAY; MAVERICKS UPDATE; Pg. 4b
>>
>>Harper stressed he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be
>>effective and added that he wants, "to be on the end of some of those
>>dimes (assists) he's dropping. ' Jackson said he felt the two showed in
>>the five games they did play together that they are compatible.
>>
>>Fred Shapiro


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 01:52:07 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:52:07 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Linguistic"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

linguistic (OED 1856)

1828 _Quarterly Journal of the American Education Society_ July 85  The
American Ed. Society have taken as high ground, in regard to the
_classical_ education of the young men under their care, as the state of
linguistic study in our country will permit.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 02:07:11 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:07:11 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Neologism"
In-Reply-To: <200402290448.i1T4m4B22903@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

neologism (OED 1799)

1772 Sauseuil, chevalier de (Jean-Nicolas). An analysis of the French
orthography: or the true principles of the French pronunciation, exhibited
in several easy and comprehensive schemes 163  (heading) Observations on
this neologism.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar  1 02:09:52 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:09:52 -0500
Subject: Fwd: cialis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was
>discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that
>Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger."
>
>    But what about "cialis"?

The company apparently claims it's from French "ciel" = "sky" (as in "the
sky's the limit"), plus "s" for "system" or something like that. (Cialis is
also a surname, and a lawsuit was filed by somebody with the name,
according to Web info.)

"Viagra" is indeed close enough to the Sanskrit word for "tiger" AFAIK.

And by some coincidence "sialis" is the species name of the eastern
bluebird (it says here) ... the bluebird of happiness, I guess.

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 02:13:27 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:13:27 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Numismatics"
In-Reply-To: <200402290448.i1T4m4B22903@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

numismatics (OED 1829-32)

1803 _Christian Observer_ May 315 (American Periodical Series)  He was
distinguished for his intimate knowledge of the Calendar, the Chronology,
the Numismatics, and the Gnomonics of that people.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 03:06:28 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:06:28 -0500
Subject: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers
Message-ID: 

ADS-L SIGNATURE

   No subject line and no e-mail address on the ADS-L Digests?  Oh, all right.
   This post on "Kumback/Comeback Sauce" and "Potstickers" is brought to you by Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com), famed "hot dog" etymologist, contributor to the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH, HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, and others.  His goal in life is to earn enough money to pay for the Dell computer that he types on, and to quit adjudicating parking tickets five days a week.  He usually gets no credit for his work, and no one loves him.
   As usual, he spent a half hour on this post, only to see it destroyed.  He is typing it again on another computer here at NYU.

---------------------------------------------------------------
KUMBACK SAUCE/COMEBACK SAUCE

   I was asked about this.  I thought that I'd posted it before.  FACTIVA has some good stuff.

(FACTIVA)
Fame came from a backyard factory and grandma's recipe

Jessie-Lynne Kerr, Times-Union staff writer
459 words
4 April 1999
The Florida Times-Union
FINAL
A-2
********** CORRECTION (4/7/99)
Patrick Michael Prosser, who made the bottled "Patrick's Kumback Sauce," died April 3, 1968. Because of an editor's error, the wrong date was used in the Millennium Moment on Page A-2 Sunday.
(...)
Celebrate 2000 April 4, 1968 A daily look at events in First Coast history

A Jacksonville man who took one of his grandmother's recipes, added a little of his own imagination and built a dozen businesses died on April 4, 1968.

Patrick Michael Prosser, whose sauce was the source of his renown, made and bottled "Patrick's Kumback Sauce" used by a number of local restaurants.

Prosser came to Jacksonville from Atlanta in 1929 and opened a drug store across from Lee High School. At one time he owned and operated the Big Five Restaurant on Main Street.

Prosser also owned 10 other restaurants and two motels, including Patrick's Motel on Atlantic Boulevard.

After leaving the restaurant business, he began to mass produce the special barbecue sauce he had perfected as a restaurateur from his grandmother's recipe and distributed it wholesale to many local restaurants.

At one time, he and his wife, Evelyn, were turning out the barbecue sauce at a rate of 400 to 500 gallons a day.

The first mass-produced sauce was made in a special "backyard" factory, and Mrs. Prosser would help when she got home from work in the evenings.

The Prossers sold the sauce business in 1964.

While the restaurant business is known to be risky, perhaps Prosser found it less so than his earlier calling as an amateur and professional boxer.

A former Golden Gloves fighter, he later won 59 professional bouts.


(FACTIVA)
Cookbook-travel guide a great idea by backers of West Feliciana Library
Cheramie Sonnier
654 words
6 February 2003
The Baton Rouge Advocate
6-F
(...)
Other recipes include Sensational Sensation Salad; Apricot Punch; Vidalia Onion Pie; Duck Breast with Raspberry Plum Ginger Glaze, a recipe from Arceneaux's of Louisiana restaurant; BBQ Shrimp; Fried Green Tomatoes with Shrimp & Mississippi Comeback Sauce, an offering from Magnolia Cafe chef Derek Edwards; Justin Wilson's Poulet au Gratin; The Bluffs Mississippi Mud Pie, a recipe from Buff Thompson, executive chef, The Bluffs on Thompson Creek; and Ice Cream Cake Irma.


(FACTIVA)
COMEBACK SAUCE ADDS A CERTAIN ZING TO PLAIN OL' SALTINES
Charlotte Durham Special to The Commercial Appeal
614 words
18 December 2002
The Commercial Appeal Memphis, TN
Final
E5
COMEBACK SAUCE / POPOVERS / PAULETTE'S STRAWBERRY BUTTER

We ate a lot of peanut butter on crackers when I was in college, but I had never heard of a restaurant serving a sauce with saltines until Mandy K. Styles asked about the sauce used on saltines at Elite Restaurant in downtown Jackson, Miss.

Nell Smith of Germantown sent this recipe and some history: "I lived in Jackson over 20 years and was told it originated at the Mayflower Cafe. Every year when classes started in the fall, the college students flocked to the Mayflower to eat the sauce on crackers." Since they always came back, the sauce got the name "Comeback Sauce" or "Kumback Sauce," she said. Smith added it makes a great chip or vegetable dip or a salad dressing.
(...)
COMEBACK SAUCE

2 large garlic cloves

1 large or 2 medium onions, grated

1 cup mayonnaise

1/2 cup chili sauce

1/2 cup ketchup

1/2 cup mustard

1/2 cup salad oil

1 tbsp. Worcestershire sauce

1 tsp. black pepper

Dash of paprika

2 tbsp. water

Place garlic and onion in blender and blend until mixed. Add other ingredients and blend well. Refrigerate.


(FACTIVA)
This part of Atlanta missed Olympic legacy
693 words
13 March 1999
The Toronto Star
1
(...)
At Aleck's, where Dr. King himself would eat pulled pork drenched in Comeback Sauce, the joint was jumping every night. Alexander, whose family has run this business for nearly 50 years, loved every minute of it. But the tap shut off before the Games, gushed during the Games, and now it's as dry as a church social.


(FACTIVA)
HOT NIGHTS COOL CLUB THE HARLEM CLUB WAS SPOKANE'S ORIGINAL HIP HANGOUT, TAKING ITS CUE FROM THE FAME COTTON CLUB IN NEW YORK
Story by Jim Kershner Staff writer
2,127 words
2 November 1997
The Spokesman Review
SPOKANE
E1
(...)
Theo and E.J. presided over the kitchen. Theo's lemon pie was still one of the big draws. Since pie and liquor didn't always mix, the pie was more popular in the Harlem Club's tree-shaded family picnic area, called the "Oval Oasis."

Brown's specialties were his tenderloin steaks ("fried in pure butter") and his fried chicken.

"I still dream about those chicken dinners," said Adams, who went on to play jazz in clubs all over the Northwest and western Canada. She now lives in a Spokane nursing home, suffering from lupus.

Brown had one other specialty: smokey slabs of ribs covered with his own "Comeback" sauce (see recipe).

Brown, in fact, was featured as the city's "barbecued sparerib expert" in a 1958 Spokane Chronicle story after his retirement. In it, he discussed his philosophy of barbecue:
(...)
This sidebar appeared with the story: STRAIGHT FROM HARLEM CLUB'S KITCHEN Here are two recipes courtesy of Doris Mae Aaron: E.J. Brown's Comeback Sauce for Ribs 2 8-oz. cans of tomato sauce 5 tbsp. olive oil 1/2 cup brown sugar 1 clove garlic 1/2 cup molasses 2 diced onions 1/4 cup apple vinegar 2 tbsp. Worcestershire sauce 2 tsp. chili powder 2 tsp salt 2 cups red wine Hot peppers or hot sauce to taste Combine all ingredients in a large saucepan, cook slowly for approximately 45 minutes, or until sauce is thick Theo Brown's World Famous Lemon Pie 1/4 cup corn starch 2/3 cup sugar 1/2 tsp. salt 2 cups warm water 1/2 cup lemon juice Grated peel of 2 lemons 4 eggs, separated 3 tbsp. real butter Meringue ingredients (see below) One homemade pie crust, or ready-made pie crust In a 2-quart saucepan, measure cornstarch, sugar and salt. Stir and mix well. Slowly add whisked egg yolks, stirring all the while. Stir in 1/2 cup of warm water. Put on medium heat and cook slowly for five minutes. Slowly add remaining water, stirring constantly. Add lemon juice, lemon peel and butter. Cook slowly until mixture reaches slow boil, stirring all the while over medium low heat until it thickens. Remove from heat, and pour in a cooled, baked 9-inch pie crust. Meringue: Whisk 4 egg whites and a pinch of cream of tartar. Very slowly add 1/2 cup sugar and 1/4 tsp. salt until the mixture stands up in peaks, but not dry. Spread it atop the lemon filling. Bake at 350 degrees for at least 20 minutes. The top should be nicely browned.


(FACTIVA)
The Dixie Chic Inn
Eve Zibart
1,041 words
16 July 1993
The Washington Post
FINAL
n10
(...)
On the other hand, the corn-fried catfish fingers and the pecan-baked catfish are fine, although they're almost certainly farm cat rather than river and the "comeback sauce" (a sort of remoulade so called, if memory serves, because it's supposed to make sure ya'll come back) is kind of reticent. The country ham biscuits are close, but still on the roll call; the bowl of red beans will get you goin'.


(FACTIVA)
NEW CATALOG, RETAIL EFFORTS SPUR CUSACK MEAT SALES / 4 SONS OF HANK CUSACK BRING NEW IDEAS, GROWTH TO 52-YEAR OLD FIRM

MAX NICHOLS
1,210 words
11 December 1985
The Journal Record
(...)
One major customers was the old YWCA restaurant downtown in the 1940s and 1950s. Cusack started providing a rolled roast and sliced fresh side pork, which became specialties there. When Eloise Paskvan left the YWCA to become head of food operations at Baptist Hospital, she started buying the hospital's meat from Cusack.

"That was a big step for us," he said. "Now, we handle the meat for just about every hospital around here."

Another major customer in those days was Ralph Stephens at the old Dolores Restaurant on NE 23rd St.

"Ralph started ordering split tenderloins from us," said Cusack. "He would serve them on special steak sandwiches with Texas toast and his Comeback Sauce."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Review - 4/24/1927
...Cottage Bar B-Q. Sandwiches with that COMEBACK SAUCE. 2500 N. Water. R. E. Carr.....lif Illf UK'hl Joyful Message to deaf in book by specialiflU It you art tmd for Olonn..
Decatur, Illinois   Sunday, April 24, 1927  661 k
Pg. ?, col. 7:
   White Cottage Bar B-Q.
Sandwiches with that comeback sauce.

---------------------------------------------------------------
POT STICKERS

   The Bonnie Slotnick cookbook store nearest me didn't turn up a citation before 1968.  It's "wraplings" in an earlier version of the book, as a friend's e-mail also points out:

Barry:
I have a copy of How To Cook and Eat in Chinese - revised enlarged edition from 1949. The chiao-tzu are translated as "corners" or, as the author calls them, "wraplings."

   Helpful also is this book:

DIM SUM
by Rhoda Lee
San Francisco: Taylor & NG
1977

Pg. 37 ("The Cooker's Mistake"):
   The Emperor wanted to know why his food was burnt.  The son, who was a very quick witted fellow, explained that this was his new recipe called Pot Stickers, and that the bottom of each dumpling is supposed to be nice and brown.
   POT STICKERS (Kuo Teh)
(Recipe follows--ed.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 03:13:21 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:13:21 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Rationalism"
In-Reply-To: <04CF77C0.44B3E6AA.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

rationalism (OED 1800)

1776 Boston, Thomas. Memoirs of the life, time, and writings, of the
reverend and learned Thomas Boston, A.M. sometime minister at Simprin 380
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  The gospel of Christ is by this
time, with many, especially of the younger sort of divines, exchanged for
rationalism.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 03:19:23 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:19:23 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Federalism"
In-Reply-To: <04CF77C0.44B3E6AA.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

federalism (OED 1793)

1792 tr. J. P. Brissot de Warville _New Travels in the United States of
America_ 233 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  The quarrel about
federalism divided the town.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Mar  1 04:03:16 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:03:16 -0500
Subject: Rodney Dangerfield. Was Re: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers
Message-ID: 

I used to lie awake nights worrying that, when Rodney Dangerfield  shuffled
off this mortal coil, there would be no one to take his place.

These days, I sleep like a baby.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:06 PM
Subject: Kumback/Comback Sauce; Pot Stickers


>    No subject line and no e-mail address on the ADS-L Digests?  Oh, all
right.
>    This post on "Kumback/Comeback Sauce" and "Potstickers" is brought to
you by Barry A. Popik (Bapopik at aol.com), famed "hot dog" etymologist,
contributor to the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH, HISTORICAL
DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, and others.  His goal in life is to earn
enough money to pay for the Dell computer that he types on, and to quit
adjudicating parking tickets five days a week.  He usually gets no credit
for his work, and no one loves him.
>    As usual, he spent a half hour on this post, only to see it destroyed.
He is typing it again on another computer here at NYU.


From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Mar  1 04:20:06 2004
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:20:06 -0600
Subject: Fwd: New Word
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Also, what's a word?

Victoria

On Sunday, Feb 29, 2004, 9:01 AM, David Barnhart wrote:

> The notion of "one new word per day" from American English is, in my
> humble opinion, a rather interesting if nebulous notion,
> especially in an
> election year.  First of all, what's "new."  Secondly, what
> constitutes
> "adding"?  How many times must it be used and over what
> period of time
> before a neologism is "established"?  I believe Robert
> Burchfield once
> opined that there were 800 new words per year.  I am confident that
> "one-a-day" and 800 (or about two per day) are very conservative
> guesstimates, when one takes into consideration all the
> technical fields
> from boating to astrophysics.
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
>


Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 04:29:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:29:21 -0500
Subject: Nesselrode pie (1944)
Message-ID: 

ADS-L SIGNATURE

   This "Nesselrode pie" post is brought to you by Barry A. Popik, who has just returned from the New York Times Travel Show at the Javits Convention Center, where he discussed with MIR Corp. his upcoming trip to Belarus and Moldova.  (He had traveled with MIR to Tibet, Mongolia, Korea, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the Ukraine, all in 2002.)
   Someone at the Travel Show asked him if he subscribed to the New York Times.  He would receive a handy travel computer thingy if he did.
   And then he tried to tell this person the story how he solved "the Big Apple" twelve years ago, how he got two uncredited lines about it eight years ago, how there's now 200 lines in the City Section about "Nesselrode pie"...

---------------------------------------------------------------
NESSELRODE PIE

(OED)
More fully Nesselrode cream, pie, pudding. An iced dessert made with chestnuts, cream, preserved fruits, etc., and freq. flavoured with rum.

  1840 R. H. BARHAM Ingoldsby Legends III. 247 There was nothing so good in the whole of the Feed..As the great Lumpoff Icywitz' Nesselrode pudding! 1845 E. ACTON Mod. Cookery xx. 525 Nesselrode Cream,..Chestnuts..sugar..isinglass..cream..vanilla [etc]. 1894 E. SKUSE Compl. Confectioner 155 Nesselrode or Ice Pudding. Prepare a custard of one pint of cream, [etc.]. 1952 S. J. PERELMAN Ill-tempered Clavichord (1953) 12, I wouldn't bolt that Nesselrode if I were you. 1983 Listener 22-29 Dec. 25/3 Nesselrode pudding is made from sweetened chestnut pure? combined with an egg-and-cream cooked custard. Maraschino liqueur is used for flavouring, and raisins and currants are added as well. 1999 W. LEAST HEAT-MOON River Horse v. 139 Perhaps somewhere in the village was a relict fountain and an ancient sodaman who knew the secrets of a Tenderfoot Punch (2 ounces rum, 1 tablespoon Nesselrode pudding, grape juice, dash of bitters, shaved ice).

-

   This "Nesselrode Pie" is from the "City" section of today's Sunday NEW YORK TIMES:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/nyregion/thecity/29ness.html
By BERNARD GWERTZMAN
Published: February 29, 2004

IN the summer of 1987, shortly after moving back to New York from Washington, I tried to buy a Nesselrode pie for my younger son's birthday. But that creamy, chiffon pie with accents of chocolate, candied fruit and rum that I remembered so well from my childhood in the Bronx seemed to have disappeared.

I searched the obvious pastry shops. I asked in the obvious restaurants. I asked friends for tips. But as far as I could determine - this was not a scientific survey, mind you - Nesselrode was apparently no more. Like baked Alaska and Charlotte Russe, it seemed to have gone to the equivalent of food heaven.

I was not alone in mourning the loss.

Arthur Schwartz, the food writer and restaurant critic, wrote of Nesselrode pie on his Web site: "It's extinct now - no restaurant serves it, no bakery makes it - but this old New York dessert still lives vividly in the taste memories of many."

On the Chowhound's message board: "Ahhh, Nesselrode pie. I was a fiend for it as a child at Ratner's on the Lower East Side. If we were in town, I'd make sure to leave room for a slice (even in the face of those baskets of onion rolls). Eventually, they never seemed to have it in and then alas, Ratner's was no more. Let the weeping commence."

Even Howard Seftel, the food critic for the Arizona Republic, wrote as one of his 10 requests to Santa: "And if it's not too much trouble, find a pastry chef willing to bring back Nesselrode pie."

Still, I couldn't believe that the pie was really impossible to find. So I started on a personal quest.

Let me backtrack. The story begins for me, as it did for others, in the 1940's and 1950's, when my father, who loved Nesselrode pie, used to bring one home for special occasions. "I picked this up at Mrs. Spier's," he would inevitably say as he walked into our apartment at 3235 Grand Concourse or later, at our house in New Rochelle.

"Mrs. Spier's," I learned during my search, was a wholesale pie bakery run by Hortense Spier at 24 West 90th Street on the Upper West Side. Her pi?ce de r?sistance was a dessert named after the 19th-century Russian foreign minister Count Karl Robert Nesselrode, a man who loved good food and had a talented chef named Mouy. The chef developed a dessert that eventually became known as Nesselrode pudding, which Mrs. Spier turned into a pie. Her children ran the business after she died, but by 1968 they were also dead.

Although "Mrs. Spier's" provided the pie to many leading restaurants in the New York area, other bakeries had their own versions. You could find Nesselrode at Lindy's, Longchamps and steak houses and seafood restaurants throughout the region.

You probably want to know what this pie tasted like. My memory is of a lot of whipped cream, chocolate shavings on top, candied fruits in the custard of the pie, and a rum flavor throughout. The original Nesselrode had chestnut pur?e; later recipes omit this ingredient.


   In a 31 March 2003 post on ADS-L, that 1840 "Nesselrode pudding" citation was submitted by me.
   But what about Nesselrode PIE?
   Newspaperarchive.com isn't very helpful on the pie.  It does appear to come from New York City and Mrs. Hortense Spier.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Christmas in the Kitchen
Marian Manners. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 9, 1951. p. G28 (2 pages)
FIRST PAGE:
Left: Crowning confection for Christmas or New Year's dinner is the glamorous, easy-to-make Nesselrode pie.

   Holiday Foods; Put your best recipe forward In keeping with the theme of our holiday food issue, on this and following pages we offer cherished recipes, accessories Your Best Recipe
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 11, 1956. p. Q14 (3 pages)

   A Pie by Any Name Tastes as Sweet; These Pies Take the Cake
Arlington Reader. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 22, 1957. p. C12 (2 pages)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)(59 hits for "Nesselrode pie."  The first hit below is for "Spier" and "Nesselrode"--ed.)
   News of Food; Acker, Merrall & Condit Back in Food Business, Specializing in Delicacies
By JANE HOLT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 21, 1944. p. 18 (1 page):
   If pies are on your list for holiday meals, some exceptionally good ones, made by Hortense Spiers, may be found at Hearn's sweet shop.  One is a nesselrode, prepared with macaroons and fruits and flavored with rum; it is fourteen inches in diameter.

   1. News of Food; A PIE NAMED AFTER A RUSSIAN DIPLOMAT
BY JANE HOLTThe New York Times Studio. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1945. p. 20 (1 page):
PHOTO CAPTION:
   The gentleman was Count Karl Robert Nesselrode, who lived from 1780 to 1862, and who lent his name to a rich pudding.  Later the recipe was adapted for use in an ice cream, and recently it has begun to appear in a pie.  The mixture of raisins, almonds, macaroon crumbs and brandy is poured into a baked pie shell and chilled.
(...)
   NESSELRODE PIE
1 tablespoon gelatin
1 1/2 cups milk
3 eggs, separated
1/3 cup chopped raisins
2 tablespoons ground almonds
1 cup broken macaroons
1 tablespoon brandy or rum
1 teaspoon vanilla
1/8 teaspoon salt
1/3 cup sugar
1 baked nine-inch pie shell
Maraschino cherries
   Soften gelatin in one-quarter cup milk.  Scald remaining one and a quarter cups milk in the top of a double boiler.  Beat egg yolks slightly, add milk, stirring, and return to double boiler.  Add gelatin, and cook, stirring, till mixture coats spoon.  Add raisins, almonds, macarooons, brandy or rum, vanilla and salt.  Chill till beginning to set.  Beat egg whites, add sugar and beat till stiff.  Fold into gelatin mixture.  Pour into a baked pie shell and chill till firm.  Garnish with maraschino cherries.  Serves eight.

   2. News of Food; Four Recipes Tested in Times' Kitchen Reprinted as Favorite Formulas of 1945
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 1, 1946. p. 23 (1 page)

   3. New Hungarian Pastries Now on Sale; Elderberries Thrifty for Home Growth
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 3, 1947. p. 32 (1 page)

   4. Sugar and Spice and Many Things Nice Go Into the 24 Recipes in a New Booklet
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 22, 1947. p. 12 (1 page)

   5. Display Ad 10 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1948. p. 2 (1 page)

   6. News of Food; New Fluid Flavorings Now Are Available To Give Home Cooks 'Culinary Courage'
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 6, 1948. p. 26 (1 page)

   7. Display Ad 25 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 8, 1948. p. 26 (1 page)

   8. Display Ad 17 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 22, 1948. p. 18 (1 page)

   9. News of Food; Citronade Cake, Developed in Hungary, Offered to Mark Opening of New Shop
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 30, 1948. p. 16 (1 page)

   10. Display Ad 23 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 12, 1949. p. 22 (1 page)

(...)

   55. The Culinary Mystery of Nesselrode Pie; The once-popular dessert features pureed chestnuts.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1988. p. C20 (1 page):
   In the case of Nesselrode, the conclusion was that it had gone the way of baked Alaska.
(...)
   The man who created Nesselrode pudding, according to Larousse, was the count's hea chef, one Monsieur Mouy.  He put together a custard cream mixed with chestnut puree, candied fruits, currants and white raisins and whipped cream.
   An earlier edition of Larousse calls for freezing the Nesselrode pudding.  George Lang says Nesselrode coupe, which was essentially the same thing as frozen Nesselrode pudding, was very popular in New York restaurants from the 1920's through the 1950's.
   For me, Nesselrode pie is always associated with New York.  I remember having it at a restaurant here as a child--possibly the Cafe de la Paix in the St. Moritz Hotel, but a call there produced no one who had been there long enough to remember.
   Which brings me to Mrs. Spier--Hortense Spier, according to Mr. Baum and William Greenberg, the owner of William Greenberg Jr., a much-admired bakery in New York.  Both men associate Nesselrode pie with Mrs. SPier, whose company, Hortense Spier Pies, sold pies to restaurants all over the city in the 40's and 50's.

Nesselrode Days (Letter--ed.)
JEAN LIBMAN BLOCK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 22, 1989. p. C8 (1 page)


(OT: I am currently trying to get "the Big Apple" story published in a New Orleans publication, 12 years too late.  I appreciate the TIMES publishing, instead, a story about "Nesselrode pie"--a story that the TIMES has already run in full--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 05:00:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:00:01 -0500
Subject: Croissant (1896)
Message-ID: 

   Andy Smith asked about the "croissant" on rec.food.historic.  I think OED and Merrriam-Webster have about 1900.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
Article 1 -- No Title
Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Apr 1896. p. 598 (11 pages):
Pg. 616:
   HOW TO DIGEST CHOCOLATE.--As a nation the French are in advance of us in their application of the chemistry of food.  Their little school-children may be seen daily enjoying a luncheon of a piece of bread or a little roll or croissant with a bar of plain chocolate, not creams, and nothing is more nourishing for them, while French, Italians, and Spaniards alike dip bread into their morning cup of chocolate.

   2. STUDENTS LIVING EXPENSES IN PARIS.
The Art Amateur; A Monthly Journal Devoted to Art in the Household (1879-1903). New York: Oct 1896. Vol. 35, Iss. 5; p. 97 (2 pages)
First page:
   A bowl of cafe-au-lait or chocolate cost me 3 cents--larger bowls 4 cents; breads or croissants (circulat-shaped rolls), 1 cent apiece.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 07:41:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:41:29 EST
Subject: Boil-in-Bag (1958)
Message-ID: 

BOIL-IN-BAG
(by Barry Popik)

   Oh all right, I'll do every item on rec.food.historic.  Maybe not, but
this person is way off.
   I'll do the stuff for Grant Barrett tomorrow.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: C Engelmann (zuchtschnecke at hotmail.com)
Subject: Who invented boil-in-bag rice?
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Date: 2004-02-27 09:59:04 PST

Well, in Germany it appeared about 1970, under the name "Reis-Fit".But the
company who presented it doesn't claim to have invented it.So who was the first?

Thanks!-Carsten



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Van Nuys News - 10/15/1959
...air Frozen Bel-air Economy Pack Fradelit "BOIL-IN-BAG" Quick Meal Ideas
Manor House.....Boneless m SAKWAY CANDI-CANE SUGAR 5-lb. BAG 33 with this coupon
Good Sun. Oct. 15, 18.....17, 18 At Safewayt IN Lot Angeles and Orange
Countiei, plus San..
Van Nuys, California Thursday, October 15, 1959  362 k
Pg. 2-B Safeway supermarket ad:
Beef Stew
     Fradelis "Boil-in-Bag"
2 10-oz. pkgs.  89c

Valley News - 3/6/1958
...FLAVOR AUD VARIETY LD EXTRA NIPPY LASCCO BOIL IN BAG FINNAN HADDiE O'SO
TENDER MEATS..
Van Nuys, California Thursday, March 06, 1958  405 k
Pg. 5-C supermarket ad:
LASCCO . BOIL IN BAG
FINNAN HADDIE

Times Recorder - 6/26/1960
...of mashed potatoes and a paslry shell. BOIL-IN-BAG items INcluded
broccoli.....black. They come IN fINe graINed leathers, IN brushed and suedes, IN
waxed fINishes.....two heavily-breaded fish steak dINners, one IN lobster sauce
and the other, IN shrimp.....as an elementary school teacher at Philo IN the
fall. While IN college the bride was..
Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, June 26, 1960  692 k

Salisbury Times - 12/27/1961
...of expansion of THE already fast growINg BOIL-INTHE-BAG sales. THEy also
count on.....IN THE BAG. Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG special diets for
hospital or home use.....THE Modern Foods Council says 100 million BOIL-IN-THE-BAG
units were sold this year.....Phone PI 9-5432 Frozen Vegetables Come IN BOIL
-ln-THE-BAG Pack By SAM DAWSON AP..
Salisbury, Maryland Wednesday, December 27, 1961  684 k

Gettysburg Times - 12/27/1961
...of expansion of THE already fast growINg BOIL-INTHE-BAG sales. THEy also
count on.....GREETINGS Once IN an old time picture book My faTHEr called on me
to look Upon a.....IN THE BAG. Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG prINciple makes
possible packINg special.....THE Modern Foods Council says 100 million BOIL-
IN-THE-BAG units were sold this year..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 27, 1961  752 k

Newark Advocate - 12/27/1961
...100 food items so packaged Fowler says THE BOIL-IN-THE-BAG :bv atxju 40
food processors.....cook frozen raw foods and lhe 100 million BOIL-IN-THE-BAG
units _ THE vitamIN content.....remaINder goINg back m to buv BOIL-INtTHE-BAG
foods. flage; a Face: 1 :00-Day IN Court.....of expansion ;of THE already fast
growINg BOIL-INCan Co. which supplies polyethyhhe-BAG..
Newark, Ohio Wednesday, December 27, 1961  530 k

Jefferson Bee - 4/26/1960
...IN INdividual por tions will be IN new BOIL-IN-THE-BAG plastic contaINers.
THEy can.....or heated IN water withou removINg THE BAG. accordINg to Jewel
Graham, extension.....is to be published IN THE ballotINg Friday IN THE IN a
medical journal IN THE near.....off. THE route brought all of THEm back to THE
Rrenneman home as THE fINish lINe. It..
Jefferson, Iowa Tuesday, April 26, 1960  636 k

Zanesville Signal - 11/19/1958
...IN THE development stage. THEre are BOIL-IN-THE-BAG vegetables. You drop
THE specially.....treated BAG IN BOILINg water for 10 mINutes and out.....live
arc IN THEir late 50's. 60's and even THE 70's. Yet IN our focus upon THE thIN
gs of.....suffered most cruelly IN World War I. IN THE grINdINg trench warfare
of THE era..
Zanesville, Ohio Wednesday, November 19, 1958  731 k
Pg. 7?, col. 5:
   Some clever packaging items are showing up these days and a lot of others
are in the development stage.
   There are boil-in-the-bag vegetables.  You drop the specially-treated bag
in boiling water for 10 minutes and out comes an individual serving ready to
eat.

Van Nuys News - 9/24/1959
...IN BAG Eroren Roiis Fradelis "BOIL IN THE BAG" Frozen SPAGHETTI MEAT BALLS
OR TASTY.....lation. I and 30 of his colleagues, is '2. THE sharp upturn IN
busi-J pendINg IN THE.....ThIN column by THE ROTemINent division of THE
National Association of and THE views ex.....v, ami ei i id VPI 'IN; thp fi. uni'.n
HUM, IN uenei mdii-try a, a long Ftf IN i IIP l..
Van Nuys, California Thursday, September 24, 1959  463 k

Monroe County News - 2/21/1966
...He also foresaw the INtroduction of BOIL-IN-BAG home-style foods that
normally.....s for MedicINe Davis PaINt Store Duncan Book Storo GROCERS Hy-Vee
Food Storo United.....They would INclude corn on the cob. RICE, and pasta. If the
market becomes big.....PAINTS WALLPAPER Davis PaINt Storo Dvncan Book Storo
SHOES A. and A. Shoe Store Ralph N..
Albia, Iowa Monday, February 21, 1966  310 k
Pg. 5, col. 1:
   Cosgrove, president of Green Giant Co., mentioned the steadily growing
popularity of ethnic foods such as Italian, Chinese and Mexican, and speculated
that sauced foods, widely used in French cookery, would lend themselves
especially well to freezer processing.
   He also foresaw the introduction of boil-in-bag home-style foods that
normally are boiled in preparation.  They would include corn on the cob, rice, and
pasta.

Washington Post - 11/27/1911
...IN the eggs. Knead all together and BOIL IN BAG four hourfc. The puddINg
can be kept.....ali Air Cushions, IN leather oases, each. Book and MagalINe Cov
ers, each. Fitted.....PAGE. Jewel, a paINtINg, a statue or a book will fetch.
These gems have been brought.....this statement, but Otero cried, mort IN
dignantly IN court: believe IN the Bible..
Washington, District Of Columbia


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark     BOIL 'N BAG
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: PREPARED MEAT AND
POULTRY ENTREES. FIRST USE: 19771111. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19771111(CANCELLED)
IC 030. US 046. G & S: PREPARED PASTA ENTREES. FIRST USE: 19771111. FIRST USE
IN COMMERCE: 19771111
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  110313 190725
Serial Number   73152043
Filing Date December 14, 1977
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Registration Number 1139272
Registration Date   September 2, 1980
Owner   (REGISTRANT) GREEN GIANT COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE HAZELTINE GATES
CHASKA MINNESOTA 55318
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BAG" APART FROM
THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date   January 29, 1987


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Mar  1 13:19:20 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:19:20 -0500
Subject: Posting etiquette
Message-ID: 

From:    Damien Hall 

: Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their
: posts clear? I've posted about this before, making two specific
: requests:

: 1.  Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts?

Happily done.

: 2.  Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body
: of the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail?

: What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due
: to the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the
: individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at
: the top of them...

Um, Damien, as someone who receives the digest version of this list, I'll
just point out that your post came in the middle of the list with the
following information at the top of it:

Date:    Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500
From:    Damien Hall 
Subject: Posting etiquette

In fact, I used that to rename the subject line *and* to attribute what
you'd written.



BTW, for the person who asked why anyone would ever get the digest version
of this list--I've got two reasons:

(1) It's less difficult to lose one big email a day amidst all my spam than
lots of little ones.

(2) I'd rather hit CTRL-D once to delete one email after reading it than
click CTRL-D gobs and bunches of times after reading the same information in
lots of little emails.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Mar  1 13:25:04 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:25:04 -0500
Subject: ordering of authors' names
Message-ID: 

From:    Arnold Zwicky 

: anne mark of mit press explains the abandonment of alphabetical order:

:: The change had to do with academic culture. Some authors felt that
:: other linguists (including potential employers and tenure
:: committees) assume that the first-named author of a paper is the
:: primary author. Sometimes when author X considered himself or herself
:: the primary author of a paper yet was named second, alphabetically,
:: after author A, the authors asked to insert a footnote reading "The
:: authors' names appear in alphabetical order." This seemed awkward, so
:: we finally decided to simply let the authors themselves determine the
:: order of their names.


I recall reading (no cite, no guarantee of accuracy) about some economists
who surveyed their field to find out whether alphabetical ordering of
authors was considered a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. The result? Everybody
was at least sort of okay with it, but the closer an individual's last name
came to the beginning of the alphabet, the more likely they were to think it
was a Good Thing.

The explanation given was *not* that those with names near the beginning saw
an advantage in being more likely to come first, but rather that there was
safety in having a consistent reason for their names coming first. That is,
those with names near the beginning of the alphabet have more to lose in
situations of non-alphabetical name order--while those with names near the
end of the alphabet  exist in a state of comfortable
ambiguity when their names are last, those with names near the beginning of
the alphabet are *clearly* listed as a secondary author or less when their
names come late in the list.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Mar  1 14:16:42 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:16:42 -0800
Subject: Subject:      Re: "Make like a tree and leave"
In-Reply-To: <4a.2878c885.2d73e812@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

This is the way I learned it in the late 60's - early
70's in Utah.


--- Jerry Kane  wrote:
> I was born in Los Angeles in 1942.  I always heard
> and used "make like a tree
> and leaf".
>
> Jerry Kane


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  1 15:29:55 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:29:55 -0500
Subject: Fwd: cialis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 7:28 PM -0600 2/29/04, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>To ads-l; here's an item from the American Name Society. Viagra was
>discussed on ads-l a few years ago. As I remember, someone said that
>Sanskrit "viagra" means "tiger."
>
>    But what about "cialis"?
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>>Date:         Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:46 -0600
>>From: callary ed 
>>Subject: cialis
>>To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>>
>>Does anyone know the story behind the creation of the brand name Cialis,
>>which joinv Viagra and Levitra in the "ED" market?
>>
>>Viagra is easily evocative with connotations of vim, vigor and vitality
>>with the image of Niagra Falls in the background, and Levitra has
>>association with Elevation, Levitation, and the like, but Cialis?

I've always enjoyed deriving "Levitra" from "le vit" (colloquial
French designation for the male organ) + "ra" (cheer).

Larry Horn


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Mar  1 17:20:38 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:20:38 -0800
Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay"
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040229150630.02ef95e0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:35 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson"
 wrote:

> But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is
> it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing"
> or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")?
>
> Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts
> verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"?
>
> Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands
> nothing"?
>
> Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of
> German?
>
> Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") +
> "forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it
> is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910:
> http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ]
>
> [Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ...
> but not to me.]

The answer is far from obvious to someone well-versed in German, but to me
an explanation involving English word order is equally nonsensical.
"Nothing understand"???

Peter Mc.


*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Mar  1 17:36:41 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:36:41 -0500
Subject: Movie Hopping
Message-ID: 

        Today's Zits comic strip mentions "movie hopping," a term new to me:  "Nobody sees 'a' movie anymore, Mom.  You start in one theater, but as soon as it gets boring, you switch to another theater and watch that movie until it gets boring, and so on.  It's called 'movie hopping'  Everybody does it."

        Google has 696 page references.  The earliest use on Google Groups is from 7/3/92:  "Steve and I went to see Boomerang tonight.  It was a really good movie.  I reccomend it for when you get back from your trip.  We also saw Batman Returns...we went movie hopping at Tigard Cinemas."

        The L.A. Times is slightly later, with 7/25/92 and a slightly different definition:  "'It is true you can buy a ticket and go in a theater and movie hop to any movie you want,' said one 11-year-old. Movie hopping,  she explained, is when your parents drop you off at a multiplex  theater, you buy a ticket for a PG-rated show, then once inside  switch theaters to any R-rated show you want to see.

John Baker


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Mar  1 17:37:26 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:37:26 -0800
Subject: live by the dictionary or submit!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, February 29, 2004 5:22 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
 wrote:

> Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit!
> From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
> On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>
>> Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region".  In
>> Ontario (the
>> real one, not that town south of you, Arnold),
>
> i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario.  anyway, that other
> ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live
> in.
>
>>  region is used frequently to
>> refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie
>> region,
>> or the region of Oshawa.  Last fall while at our cottage we heard a
>> London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had
>> happened
>> "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd to
>> us (I'm
>> from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central
>> Indiana).
>
> "in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but,
> really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english).
>
> there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as
> serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three
> times.  a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been
> "the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area".
>
> but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)"
> that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the
> u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway to
> take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond),
> and so on.
>
> just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and
> also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the
> same.

Exactly, and unless Canadian English is different from American on this
point, it sounds to me as if the reader wasn't referring to some
quasi-official designation but was using "in the region of" to mean
"somewhere near."  I'm pretty sure I've heard "region" used in this context
as a substitute for "neighborhood" where the area in question is felt to be
too big to qualify as a "neighborhood."

Are you sure that "the Barrie region" would parallel "the region of Oshawa"
in Canadian usage?

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Mon Mar  1 17:46:05 2004
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:46:05 -0500
Subject: live by the dictionary or submit!
Message-ID: 

Peter,

All I'm going on is news reader usage on CBC TV coming out of
London-Kitchener.  But there the usage varies between "the region of X"
and "the X region", with apparently the same pragmatics as "the handle
of the cup" and "the cup's handle".

Herb

--On Sunday, February 29, 2004 5:22 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
 wrote:

> Subject: Re: live by the dictionary or submit!
> From: Arnold Zwicky (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
> On Feb 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>
>> Dictionaries aside, I'm interested in this use of "region".  In
>> Ontario (the
>> real one, not that town south of you, Arnold),
>
> i recognize ontario-sur-lac as the real ontario.  anyway, that other
> ontario is in socal, which is a different country from the one i live
> in.
>
>>  region is used frequently to
>> refer to an area served by the services of a city, e.g., the Barrie
>> region,
>> or the region of Oshawa.  Last fall while at our cottage we heard a
>> London-Kitchener-Waterloo TV newsreader mention something that had
>> happened
>> "in the region of Cincin[na]ti", a usage that sounded decidedly odd
to
>> us (I'm
>> from SE Michigan, my wife's from NW Ohio, and we live in East Central
>> Indiana).
>
> "in the Cincinnati region" would have been slightly less odd, but,
> really, "in the Cincinnati area" is the way to go (in u.s. english).
>
> there used to be a chicago radio station that advertised itself as
> serving "the Greater Chicagoland Area", saying the same thing three
> times.  a waggish friend of mine suggested that it should have been
> "the Greater Chicagoland Regional Area".
>
> but... it seems to me that there are plenty of uses of "region(al)"
> that cover the same territory as "area": regional park districts, the
> u.s. capital region (which might, conceivably, go beyond the beltway
to
> take in, oh, say, baltimore, but certainly couldn't embrace richmond),
> and so on.
>
> just to make things clear: there are ordinary-language usages here and
> also technical/administrative ones, and they aren't necessarily the
> same.

Exactly, and unless Canadian English is different from American on this
point, it sounds to me as if the reader wasn't referring to some
quasi-official designation but was using "in the region of" to mean
"somewhere near."  I'm pretty sure I've heard "region" used in this
context
as a substitute for "neighborhood" where the area in question is felt to
be
too big to qualify as a "neighborhood."

Are you sure that "the Barrie region" would parallel "the region of
Oshawa"
in Canadian usage?

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 17:46:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:46:21 EST
Subject: Movie Hopping; Croissant (1875)
Message-ID: 

(MOVIE HOPPING

This "movie hopping" post is brought to you by Barry Popik, who has never
done it because it's illegal.)

   I've heard this "movie hopping" term since the 1970s.  That's when the
"multiplexes" came on in force.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CROISSANT

   Here. have another "croissant."
   I was in a rush because NYU was closing at midnight..."Croissant" results
in many hits, so I usually add the word "bread."
   The "croissant" allegedly comes from the 17th century, but OED and
MERRIAM-WEBSTER both have 1899.


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Living age ... / Volume 124, Issue 1601: pp. 385-448
p. 445 1 match of 'croissants' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 124,
Issue 16
Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: February 13, 1875
City: New York etc.
Pg. 445:   ...quaint mediaeval signs, too, figure on several of the houses,
while hanging outside the bakers' shops are large frames containing models,
coloured after nature, of the different kinds of bread sold within, including not
merely loaves of all sizes, but rolls, _flutes_, _croissants_, _Semmeln_, and
the like.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 18:30:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:30:51 EST
Subject: "Ralph" (Nader)
Message-ID: 

RALPH (brought to you by Barry Popik, who usually Ed Nortons)

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040308&s=chait030804

   "Make You Ralph" (i.e., vomit) is the above story about Ralph Nader.
"Ralph" is in the American Heritage Dictionary, but not Merriam-Webster.  The
Cassell Dictionary of Slang has 1970s+.  "Echoic" is given.  The HDAS currently
stops at the letter "O."
   But was it at all influenced by Ralph Kramden of Jackie Gleason
HONEYMOONERS fame, or Ralph Nader?  Ralph Mouth?

RALPH MOUTH--606 Google hits, 268 Google Groups hits


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Mar  1 19:02:13 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:02:13 -0000
Subject: "Ralph" (Nader)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> Cassell Dictionary of Slang has 1970s+.  "Echoic" is given.

I've pushed it back a bit: _Current Slang_ (1967) lists it for 1964. I
still go for 'echoic' though; as I would for 'hughie' (usu. 'call for
hughie', 'buick', 'herb' (as in 'call for herb'), 'earl' (with inpit of
course from 'hurl') and such as 'barf', 'burk', 'woof', 'yuke', and 'ook'.
The finest example of such echoisms must be Connie Eble's inclusion in
Campus Slang (Mar. 1979): 'go to Europe with Ralph and Earl in a Buick.'

Jonathon Green


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar  1 20:33:32 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:33:32 -0500
Subject: "smackdown"
Message-ID: 

Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999
debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically
in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation', _not_ in
phrases of the sort _lay_ (or _put_) _the smack down_.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 20:37:44 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:44 EST
Subject: "C-level"
Message-ID: 

I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the
March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld.

Page 4:  "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub
intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying the C-lvel title and a
fancy-schmancy office.  With the arrival of software as a service, the breadth
of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking."

letter to the editor page 19 column 2: "If a person has a C-lvel title, he
needs to actively contribut to the creation and implementation of company
strategy.  Suggesting otherwise is absurd.  CFOs are expected to be more than
accountants, and COOs are expected to be more than factory foremen."

Thye meaning is "a top-level job in a company whose title begins with the
word "chief"", e.g. CEO, COO, CFO (Chief Fianacial Officer), CIO (Chief
INformation Officer.)

I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP"

In a message dated Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500,  Damien Hall
 says:

>if you receive the digest version of this list, the individual posts don't
>  have their subject-lines or their senders at the top of them.

I receive the digest version and each post in the digest has DATE, FROM, and
SUBJECT.

      - James A. Landau


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Mar  1 20:46:37 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:46:37 -0500
Subject: "smackdown"
Message-ID: 

        Here's a little earlier, from the St. Petersburg Times, 3/1/98:  "Young, cuddly Bucs went
 11-7, including a playoff smackdown of Detroit."

        And Google Groups has this from 1/30/96, from the rec.sport.basketball.pro newsgroup:  "Considering the Smackdown that Jeffery gave you, Josh, I'll defer to many of his points and add a few of my own."

        A band named Hip Hop Fanatics included a song named Smackdown on an album called Stompin 4 Da '94, released 4/11/94, according to Amazon, but I don't know what sense was intended.

John baker


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Mon Mar  1 21:08:14 2004
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:14 -0500
Subject: "word"
Message-ID: 

i missed this - was there a discussion here recently about use of the
word WORD as a replacement for something else, esp in email interaction?


thanks

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
us
voice 01 260 481 6761; fax 01 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar  1 21:50:31 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: Posting etiquette
In-Reply-To: <200403010500.i21507vq016831@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

First a definition: A digest on a mailing list is a compilation of all
the messages sent in a single day (or by some other criterion/a), mailed
out as one mailing. My status report from the listserver says:

   DIGEST You receive list digests, rather than individual postings

This definition also applies to most mailing lists that I know of.

Here is the start of Damien Hall's message on "Posting etiquette",
copied and pasted exactly from the digest that was in my inbox this
morning:

        >>>>>
Date:    Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:38 -0500
From:    Damien Hall 
Subject: Posting etiquette

Could I please, fervently, renew my plea for people to make their posts
clear?
I've posted about this before, making two specific requests:

1.  Please would EVERYONE ALWAYS sign ALL their posts?
2.  Please would people mention the subject of their post in the body of
the post, ie not just in the subject-line of the e-mail?

What was a minor niggle is becoming a bit more of an annoyance, due to
the fact that if you receive the digest version of this list, the
individual posts don't have their subject-lines or their senders at the
top of them.
        <<<<<

I see Damien's name and email address at the top of his post, as on
every post in every digest. I don't understand why he doesn't. Maybe he
has, perhaps unwittingly, chosen an option to suppress them. I quote
from the welcome message I received on subscribing:

        >>>>>
More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV
reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD"
command to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU.
        <<<<<

Sam Clements asks:

        >>>>>
Question:  WHY does one just get the digest instead of the whole list?
        <<<<<

I can only answer for this value of "one". This list is professionally
relevant to me, and I subscribe at my office, where I keep my email
connection open all day. I can't afford to be continually distracted by
incoming ADS-L (or other list) emails.

The LINGUIST List sends out several issues each day, many of which are
compilations, or "digests" in the above sense. They also offer a
"LINGUIST Lite" option, which simply lists the author and topic of each
issue and a link to click on. For a similar reason, I take their Lite
option.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 21:57:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:57:29 -0500
Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948)
Message-ID: 

I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN (brought to you by Barry Popik, who has tried to send this three times)

I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN--4,870 Google hits, 4.820 Google Groups hits

While we're at the beautiful "C," I thought of "IC."
Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this?


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
contradictions
"I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see,"
said the blind man to his deaf wife as he stuck his wooden leg ...
rec.humor - Feb 21, 1998 by Claudia Heyman - View Thread (1 article)

Canonical List of Contradictions ver 1.0
... uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thanks. --begin jokes here-- "I see," said the
blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," said the blind ...
rec.humor - May 9, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (1 article)

Canonical List of Condractions(?)
... Enjoy... Canonical List of Blind Man...??I
see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. ...
rec.humor - Feb 28, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (6 articles)

csv-0.4 (John Machin release) released
... In Microsoft created CSV files this is done by doubling them: 1,2,3,"""I see,"" said
the blind man","as he picked up his hammer and saw" Excel and Access quite ...
comp.lang.python.announce - Jul 12, 2001 by Dave Cole - View Thread (1 article)

Re: I see, said the blind man...
"I see," said the blind man to his deaf wife as she heard the quadrapeligic children
running down the hall... that's how it went when I was in grade school. ...
rec.humor - Jan 30, 1994 by Cathy Clare - View Thread (26 articles)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: A killer is loose among us /
Author(s): Terrall, Robert.
Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce,
Year: 1948
Description: 192 p. ; 20 cm.
Language: English
Series: A Bloodhound mystery;
Contents: A sin and a shame -- A fine and deadly mist -- The wife, the husband. and the pretty girl -- "I see," said the blind man -- A flask of sluggish fleas -- Marked for death -- Glint of evil -- Showdown -- The wishing well -- Grandmother's funeral -- Session at the dentist's -- A plague on both houses -- The open mind of D.N. Ferris -- Widow in mouring -- Mama's boy -- Visitors -- Ferris draws his pistol -- The girl is dangerous.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  1 22:05:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:05:32 -0500
Subject: C-Level (2000)
Message-ID: 

C-LEVEL
(Brought to you by Barry Popik, who first posted this here in 2000, then has tried three times to post this again.  Nothing is easy.  Ever...I left today open to go to the NYU Fales Library to check the cookbooks.  Fales is open to 6 p.m.  They just told me they're really open to 3 p.m. because of staff cuts.  Every day of my life is like this.)



Date:         Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:59:45
(...)

C-LEVEL

  Didn't the top used to be A-level, as in A-Number One?  Nothing beats a
pun (C-level/sea level), I suppose.  There are quite a few relevant hits on
the Dow Jones database.
  From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 30, col. 2 ad:

  _C-LEVEL_
  _JOB TITLES._
  _C-NOTE-FILLED_
  _WALLETS._
The C means clout.  And our readers have it.  52% of them hold C-level job
titles and the average overall net worth of $1.8 million dollars means
they're looking to buy. (...)
  _RED HERRING_
  RED HOT


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Mar  1 22:37:40 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:37:40 -0500
Subject: IP (Was: "C-level")
Message-ID: 

        "IP," as an abbreviation for intellectual property, has been around a few years.  I think it began, and to a significant extent remains, as a legal term.  Lawyers who specialized in the area got tired of being called patent lawyers, when they also had other important responsibilities.  The earliest use of IP I see is from a 1984 seminar outline on Westlaw:  Practising Law Institute PLI Order No. B4-6688 September 18, 1984 Seventh Annual Institute for Corporate Counsel: Acquisitions and Divestitures ACQUISITION AND DIVESTITURE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY Evelyn M. Sommer:

        >>As used herein, intellectual property includes
1. Patents
2. Trademarks
3. Copyrights
4. Trade Secrets
5. "Technology" = know how

        ....

        B. Role of Counsel for Acquiring Company
1. Merger situation--little direct responsibility
2. Acquisition situation--
a). Letter of intent or preliminary agreement--require statement that seller will transfer or license (royalty free?) all IP necessary to continue the business.
b) Similar clause in Final Agreement in order to cover any "forgotten" IP<<

        Note that "intellectual property" is carefully defined, while "IP" is used in only one place in the outline, without definition, even though lawyers frequently define obvious abbreviations.  I take this to mean that "IP" was an informal term that the writer used inadvertently.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of James A. Landau
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:38 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "C-level"


I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the
March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld.

Page 4:  "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub
intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying the C-lvel title and a
fancy-schmancy office.  With the arrival of software as a service, the breadth
of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking."

[clip]

I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP"

      - James A. Landau


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Mar  1 22:47:51 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:47:51 -0500
Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948)
In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

My mother (born 1906) used this phrase all the time and must have known it
from childhood.

At 04:57 PM 3/1/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN (brought to you by Barry Popik, who has tried to
>send this three times)
>
>I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN--4,870 Google hits, 4.820 Google Groups hits
>
>While we're at the beautiful "C," I thought of "IC."
>Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this?
>
>
>(GOOGLE GROUPS)
>contradictions
>"I see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see,"
>said the blind man to his deaf wife as he stuck his wooden leg ...
>rec.humor - Feb 21, 1998 by Claudia Heyman - View Thread (1 article)
>
>Canonical List of Contradictions ver 1.0
>.... uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thanks. --begin jokes here-- "I see," said the
>blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. "I see," said the blind ...
>rec.humor - May 9, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (1 article)
>
>Canonical List of Condractions(?)
>.... Enjoy... Canonical List of Blind Man...??I
>see," said the blind man. "You don't," said the dumb. ...
>rec.humor - Feb 28, 1994 by Grumpy - View Thread (6 articles)
>
>csv-0.4 (John Machin release) released
>.... In Microsoft created CSV files this is done by doubling them:
>1,2,3,"""I see,"" said
>the blind man","as he picked up his hammer and saw" Excel and Access quite ...
>comp.lang.python.announce - Jul 12, 2001 by Dave Cole - View Thread (1
>article)
>
>Re: I see, said the blind man...
>"I see," said the blind man to his deaf wife as she heard the
>quadrapeligic children
>running down the hall... that's how it went when I was in grade school. ...
>rec.humor - Jan 30, 1994 by Cathy Clare - View Thread (26 articles)
>
>
>(OCLC WORLDCAT)
>Title: A killer is loose among us /
>Author(s): Terrall, Robert.
>Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce,
>Year: 1948
>Description: 192 p. ; 20 cm.
>Language: English
>Series: A Bloodhound mystery;
>Contents: A sin and a shame -- A fine and deadly mist -- The wife, the
>husband. and the pretty girl -- "I see," said the blind man -- A flask of
>sluggish fleas -- Marked for death -- Glint of evil -- Showdown -- The
>wishing well -- Grandmother's funeral -- Session at the dentist's -- A
>plague on both houses -- The open mind of D.N. Ferris -- Widow in mouring
>-- Mama's boy -- Visitors -- Ferris draws his pistol -- The girl is dangerous.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Mar  1 23:02:35 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:02:35 -0500
Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay"
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078132838@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: 

The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no
subject, in all pidgins.  Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc.  The
German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a
nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German
easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs.

At 09:20 AM 3/1/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--On Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:35 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson"
> wrote:
>
>>But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is
>>it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing"
>>or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")?
>>
>>Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts
>>verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"?
>>
>>Or is it from a word like "Nichtsversteher" = "one who understands
>>nothing"?
>>
>>Or is "Nicht[s] verstehe" alone a conventional utterance in some form of
>>German?
>>
>>Or is it pidgin-German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") +
>>"forstay" ("understand")? [This interpretation seems likely to me, and it
>>is perhaps supported by a memoir of 1910:
>>http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest/Biltmore_Project/Esser30oct1910.pdf ]
>>
>>[Maybe the answer is trivially obvious to anyone well-versed in German ...
>>but not to me.]
>
>The answer is far from obvious to someone well-versed in German, but to me
>an explanation involving English word order is equally nonsensical.
>"Nothing understand"???
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Mar  2 00:34:00 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:34:00 -0500
Subject: -- not!
Message-ID: 

We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " -- not!"  I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find it in the archives.

So --

Here is at least a pretty early example:

It Was Some Opening -- Not.
Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4.  [Headline to a story: opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed out.]

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar  2 00:39:53 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:39:53 -0500
Subject: "smackdown"
Message-ID: 

How about 24 Oct, 1947.  Newark(OH) Advocate.  page blurry/1

[headline:  Welcome Smackdown]
If the Taft-hartley Act never accomplishes another thing, it can rest on its
laurels, confident that it has led to the rap heard 'round the picket lines,
and proud of its achievement. 
(It goes on to talk about John L. Lewis. )

SC



From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 


> Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999
> debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically
> in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation',


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  2 01:44:28 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:44:28 -0500
Subject: "smackdown"
In-Reply-To: <20040301203332.GA20349@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Does anyone have an example of _smackdown_ before the 1999
> debut of _WWF Smackdown!_? I'm looking for it specifically
> in the sense 'a beating; defeat; confrontation', _not_ in
> phrases of the sort _lay_ (or _put_) _the smack down_.

1990 _Windsor Star_ 27 Dec. [article beginning on page A11] (Factiva)  No
fewer than four students have been suspended for smooching in violation of
Allan Herchek's edict, pushing Lamont to the brink of a campus revolt.
... The kids in Lamont think his smackdown reeks of Orwellian rule.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Mar  2 02:09:10 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:09:10 -0600
Subject: -- not!
Message-ID: 

>>From George Thompson, Mon, 1 Mar 2004:
>
>We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by
>making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " --
>not!"  I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find
>it in the archives.
>
>So --
>
>Here is at least a pretty early example:
>
>It Was Some Opening -- Not.
>Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4.  [Headline to a story:
>opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed
>out.]
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson


Jesse Sheidlower wrote an article in American Speech on this topic.
The use of "...Not!" goes back to the 19th century.

Gerald Cohen


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Mar  2 02:28:53 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:28:53 -0500
Subject: -- not!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 08:09:10PM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote:
> >From George Thompson, Mon, 1 Mar 2004:
> >
> >We have batted about the practice of making a negative statement by
> >making an affirmative statement and capping it with an emphatic " --
> >not!"  I don't recall where we left it, and don't know how to find
> >it in the archives.
> >
> >So --
> >
> >Here is at least a pretty early example:
> >
> >It Was Some Opening -- Not.
> >Sporting News, April 17, 1913, p. 6, col. 4.  [Headline to a story:
> >opening day games in some American Association cities were snowed
> >out.]
> >
> >GAT
> >
> >George A. Thompson
>
>
> Jesse Sheidlower wrote an article in American Speech on this topic.
> The use of "...Not!" goes back to the 19th century.

Thanks, Jerry. That article was written with Jon Lighter, and, since
then, Barry (remember him?) has found earlier evidence.

1913 is still good, though.

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  2 02:59:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:59:00 -0500
Subject: Attack Ad (1976); Belligerati (2000); Blue Slip (1950)
Message-ID: 

(This post on political terms is brought to you by Barry "remember him?" Popik.)

   Literature Online no longer works here at NYU, so I can't check up on "croissant."  Factiva works on the Dells; ProQuest works on the Apple Macs.  The screen goes blank at least once per search.  The blue bar stops at least once per search.  I'm going crazy.
   Here's a few stuff I gotta do.


ATTACK AD (22 September 1985)
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
To the Boring May Go the Spoils
By NORMAN C MILLER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 15, 1976. p. 12 (1 page) :
      Thus, TV "attack ads" will deride Mr. Carter's presidential credentials, depicting him as just a one-term, big-spending governor of Georgia.


BELLIGERATI (10 April 2001)
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
African 'Clients' responding to Soviet 'training'
... Shaking off the stun, the other advisors tried to rush to the aid of their fallen
belligeratti comrade, but came up short when several of the other present ...
rec.aviation.military - Mar 16, 2000 by Gordon - View Thread (4 articles)

Fanatismo perigoso : O poderos?ssimo lobby Judeu nos EUA.
... urging you - nay, commanding you - to go check out the Warblogger Watch, a great
place to keep track of the foam-flecked rantings of the cyber-belligeratti. ...
pt.soc.politica - Apr 12, 2002 by A VERDADE - View Thread (1 article)

(ALTERNATIVE PRESS WATCH)
1.
The belligerati
Joy Press. The Village Voice. New York: Nov 6, 2001. Vol. 46, Iss. 44; p. 59 (1 page)

2.
Letters
Anonymous. The Village Voice. New York: Nov 13, 2001. Vol. 46, Iss. 45; p. 6 (1 page)


BLUE SLIP (12 May 1954)
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Senate Hearing on California Judges Delayed
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 13, 1950. p. 28 (1 page) :
   Chairman McCarran (D) Nev., the only Judiciary Subcommittee member present at the hour set for hearing, said the committee hadd not received rcommendations of the California Bar nor "blue slips" from California Senators.
   "Blue slips" are forms supplied by the Judiciary Committee to permit Senators to note their endorsement or objection to nominees.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  2 03:03:13 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:03:13 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Marxism"
In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Marxism (OED3 1887)

1883 _Liberty: Not the Daughter But the Mother of Order_ 14 Apr. 1
(American Periodical Series)  He is the principal representative of
Marxism in France.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  2 03:08:11 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:08:11 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Marxist"
In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Marxist (OED3 1886)

1873 _Times_ (London) 5 Sept. 6  At the Congress of Bologna a cotery of
Marxists had tried to impede all progress, but in vain.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar  2 03:15:10 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:15:10 -0500
Subject: Antedating of chicle(gum) 1884
Message-ID: 

M-w and OED have 1889.

>From the NYTimes(Proquest), March 24, 1884.

"In the basement of a substantial four-story brick building in Murray-street a Times reporter was shown the other day a great heap of what seemed to be broken pieces of putty.  Barrels and boxes around the room were filled with the substance.  "That," said the proprietor of the establishment, "is chicle.  It is the dried juice of the sapota tree, of Mexico.  Seventeen years ago, when Gen. Santa Anna was in this country, his secretary had with him a piece of this chicle. "

Sam Clements......

Another Straightdope followup.  How'd you guess?


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  2 03:19:50 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:19:50 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Racism"
In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

racism (OED 1936)

1934 _Forum and Century_ Jan. 9 (American Periodical Series)  From the
time of Luther and beyond it the German people have at intervals shown
themselves infatuated with ideas of racism and with notions of withdrawing
themselves from the influence of other races.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Mar  2 03:40:03 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:40:03 -0800
Subject: IP (Was: "C-level")
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B615C@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

"IP" is widely used in the business world and not simply by IP lawyers. In
the high tech business world IP is not simply a legal question, it figures
into a company's valuation and its business strategy.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:38 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: IP (Was: "C-level")
>
>
>         "IP," as an abbreviation for intellectual property, has
> been around a few years.  I think it began, and to a significant
> extent remains, as a legal term.  Lawyers who specialized in the
> area got tired of being called patent lawyers, when they also had
> other important responsibilities.  The earliest use of IP I see
> is from a 1984 seminar outline on Westlaw:  Practising Law
> Institute PLI Order No. B4-6688 September 18, 1984 Seventh Annual
> Institute for Corporate Counsel: Acquisitions and Divestitures
> ACQUISITION AND DIVESTITURE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY Evelyn M. Sommer:
>
>         >>As used herein, intellectual property includes
> 1. Patents
> 2. Trademarks
> 3. Copyrights
> 4. Trade Secrets
> 5. "Technology" = know how
>
>         ....
>
>         B. Role of Counsel for Acquiring Company
> 1. Merger situation--little direct responsibility
> 2. Acquisition situation--
> a). Letter of intent or preliminary agreement--require statement
> that seller will transfer or license (royalty free?) all IP
> necessary to continue the business.
> b) Similar clause in Final Agreement in order to cover any
> "forgotten" IP<<
>
>         Note that "intellectual property" is carefully defined,
> while "IP" is used in only one place in the outline, without
> definition, even though lawyers frequently define obvious
> abbreviations.  I take this to mean that "IP" was an informal
> term that the writer used inadvertently.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of James A. Landau
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:38 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "C-level"
>
>
> I don't recall seeing this term before, and now discover it twice in the
> March 1, 2004 issue of Computerworld.
>
> Page 4:  "And where a company puts its "IP", as business folks dub
> intellectual property, therin lies corporate power, justifying
> the C-lvel title and a
> fancy-schmancy office.  With the arrival of software as a
> service, the breadth
> of IP under a CIO's wing is shirnking."
>
> [clip]
>
> I was also unaware of the meaning given above for "IP"
>
>       - James A. Landau
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  2 04:20:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:20:26 -0500
Subject: Anglo Sphere (1998); Attack Fax (1990); Black Cat (1961); Bounce
 (1980)
Message-ID: 

(More political terms from Barry Popik, who somehow got dragged into this while enjoying himself in Panama.)


ANGLOSPHERE (4 January 2000)
(AMAZON.COM "search inside the book")
The Asia-Pacific Profile (Pacific Studies (London, England).)
by Bernard Eccleston
Routledge; March 1998
1. on Page 47:
"... 1877 to 1952. ? Later becomes regional political, economic and educational cen- tre for all the Pacific Islands within the Anglo sphere of influence ? Evidence of human settlement from 1290 loc suggests a hier- archical society particularly in the eastern, Polynesian ..."


ATTACK FAX (18 February 1992)
(FACTIVA)
Fax Attack
269 words
22 April 1990
Richmond Times-Dispatch
d-6
English
(Copyright 1990)
The fax machine is a wonderful contraption. But it can be used in not-so-wonderful ways. In addition to "junk fax," there is now the unsavory "attack fax" that the legal bullies at the American Civil Liberties Union evidently intend to use in their typical efforts to intimidate those who do not share their nihilistic perspective.


BLACK CAT (1979 ref. to 1941, "off-the-record")
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Orphans Sing Their Thanks; Hands Clasped in Prayer Selections Explained Schedule Given All to Return Home
By Alice Myers Winther Special Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Nov 16, 1961. p. 6 (1 page):
PHOTO CAPTION:
      _Pat for Hodges Memento_
   With United States Secretary of Commerce Luther H. Hodges directing, Gen. Park CHung-hee of SOuth Korea pats a black cat memento in the Secretary's office.  Mr. Hodges said the cat, given to him by the San Francisco Press and Union League Club, has extraordinary powers.  "You pat it three times, and everything you say is off the record," he told the Korean leader.  General Park then patted the little black cat.


BOUNCE (16 August 1984)
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   The Connecticut Poll: From Political Attitudes to Social Inquiries
By E.J. DIONNE Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 6, 1980. p. CN1 (1 page):
   And the Connecticut Poll's sponsors could take some solace from the fact that the real winner in both races, according to their survey, was "Undecided."  This campaign, Mr. Ferree said, was marked by "an incredible amount of bounce, of volatility in people's preferences for Presidential candidates."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  2 04:59:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:59:29 -0500
Subject: Big League (1924); Blinked (
Message-ID: 

(Another political installment from Barry Popik.)

BIG LEAGUE (1974
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
POST-SCRIPTS
By GEORGE ROTHWELL BROWN. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 2, 1924. p. 1 (1 page):
   A political lietenant of that astute smoother and settler, Murray Crane, breaks into the big league with the announcement that Mr. Coolidge has picked his primary manager to manage his campaign.

   The Weekly Exposure; Congress Is Funniest When It's Serious
Edited by Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1924. p. SM4 (1 page):
   The fellow may be all right personally and a good fellow, but that Big League Idea of Politics just kinder scares him.

   Women to Swell Congress Ranks?; Big Name Nationally Republicans in Race Reelection Sought
By Josephine Ripley Staff Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 5, 1956. p. 3 (1 page):
   Four other Democratic women, out to break into big league politics, are rated high in ability and experience but are up against rugged political opposition.

   Mayor Tries 'Big League' Politics; Favorable Image Campaign Trail On Target
By Harlan Trott Staff Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 18, 1962. p. 3 (1 page)

   Campaign corner
By Robert Colby Nelson. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 2, 1968. p. B6 (1 page)

Striking Out the Liberal-Moderates
By NORMAN C. MILLER. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 9, 1968. p. 6 (1 page):
   THey were grateful for Mr. Nixon's vital campaign help, but they looked first to Michigan's handsome Gov. George ROmney as the man who could win the White House.
   But Mr. Nixon went to work confidently, too.  Though Mr. Romney was a seasoned hand in state politics, Mr. Nixon observed prophetically to a reporter that "it remains to be seen whether he can hit big league pitching."


BLINK (7 December 1962)
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   An Uncommon Quality
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1954. p. 10 (1 page):
   In the same way, the fact of an increase in unemployment is not to be blinked--but it is also not to be blown up out of proportion.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Mar  2 05:37:28 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:37:28 -0500
Subject: Heavens to Betsy and X hands 'round!
Message-ID: 

In _Tales of a Helicopter Pilot_ (2002), a reminiscence (available on-line)
from (I think) the Korean War includes the interjection "Heavens to Betsy
and four hands around". This looks like a dance call. Web search turns up
an example of "Heavens to Betsy and six hands round" from 1903, actually
given as a country dance call. N'archive has several instances from ca.
1897 of "Heaven[s] to Betsy and six hands [a]round" as a simple
interjection. In all of these, I suspect the intent is a conscious
rusticism or archaicism.

"Heavens to Betsy" dates from 1878 or earlier. My default etymological
speculation is that it is a modification (baby-talk or jocular malapropism)
of "Heaven[s] bless me" (which was used as a general interjection from
Shakespeare's time well into the 19th century, I believe).

Why is the interjection sometimes augmented with "X hands round" as if it
were a dance call? Is/was there really such a call?

[I note as a possible irrelevance that some dances (Irish ones, apparently)
have instructions like "sevens to the left" where "sevens" denotes a type
of step.]

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  2 07:34:47 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:34:47 EST
Subject: Commitment Ceremony (1990), Civil Union (1992), Pairage (1997)
Message-ID: 

COMMITMENT CEREMONY, CIVIL UNION, PAIRAGE

COMMITMENT CEREMONY--21,200 Google hits, 2,330 Google Groups hits
CIVIL UNION--59,300 Google hits, 8,880 Google Groups hits
CIVIL UNIONS--131,000 Google hits, 21,600 Google Groups hits
PAIRAGE--699 Google hits, 70 Google Groups hits

   "Commitment ceremony" and "civil union" are both not in the OED.  They
don't appear to show up on Google Groups before the 1990s.
   People have been discussing "gay marriage" with these terms every day.
Get 'em defined.
   "Pairage" appears not to have caught on as a replacement of the word
"marriage."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
A Column on Marital Benefits for Lesbians and Gays
... But there are ways do doing so without diluting traditional concepts of
marriage.
Certainly, those religious groups that wish can offer commitment ceremonies.
...
soc.motss - Sep 26, 1990 by Kevin P. Malloy - View Thread (3 articles)

Gay Marriage in Episcopal Church
... Regas, the couple, and the church committee intended that the commitment
ceremony
be quiet, dignified, and in keeping with other church liturgical events. ...
soc.religion.christian - Feb 11, 1992 by Louie Crew - View Thread (2
articles)

Re: There is hope in the world
... Well, marriage is not the correct word or concept; but there is indeed a
project
of a proposition of law for a so-called "civil union" contract that would ...

soc.motss - Mar 12, 1992 by Frederic Maffray - View Thread (3 articles)

Re: Worthless marriages and Steven Fordyce
... Whenever I refer to "marriage" in this context, please assume I mean
"legally
valid civil union." I'm not interested in debating religious ceremonies or
...
alt.rush-limbaugh - Mar 8, 1994 by Bruce Garrett - View Thread (47 articles)

GAY MARRIAGE STORIES
... Legislation to create civil-union contracts for same-sex couples was
recently
introduced nationally by Worker's Party Deputy Marta Suplicy, Mott said. ...
bit.listserv.gaynet - Apr 28, 1995 by Rex Wockner - View Thread (1 article)

Re: is shawn gay?
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 07:27:23 GMT, taskmistress at annex.com (Miss Sexual
promiscuity
is unhealthy and anal sodomy is unhealthy, regardless of the pairage or sex
...
rec.sport.pro-wrestling - Apr 22, 1997 by XlAtlbear - View Thread (88
articles)

Re: Any same-sex marriage opposition?
... Right! They could call it "pairage" or something. What the hell...they
pretend
to have sex, they can pretend be married. -- Pretend to have sex? ...
talk.atheism - Jun 8, 1997 by Bryce Hudnall - View Thread (1289 articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  2 17:41:33 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:41:33 -0500
Subject: "Deer in the headlights" (1991)
Message-ID: 

The worst thing, she adds, is to react "like a deer in the headlights--too stunned to respond or survive."
--WALL STREET JOURNAL, 2 March 2004, pg. D1, col. 1.

DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS--19,500 Google hits, 12,400 Google Groups hits

   I've heard this for several years, but I hadn't pinned a date on it.  I remember that Johnny Carson described scared guests like this.  I don't know if he coined it.

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Smart legal abusers
Write an ending for this story. She knows she's in for it now, but can't seem to
get herself moving from fear. Like the deer in your headlights, she is frozen. ...
soc.men - Jul 25, 1991 by Jack Mcbryde - View Thread (19 articles)

Re: a few more Toronto faces
... camera. B{) Sort of like the "deer in the headlights" effect, isn't
it? Brian -- Brian A. Jarvis, Rm. 4026, Sidney Smith Hall, Dept. ...
soc.motss - Jul 12, 1991 by Brian Jarvis - View Thread (5 articles)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Mar  2 18:16:31 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:16:31 -0600
Subject: Montagnards & 9 yards proposal (death of Elaine Shepard)
Message-ID: 

   This is just one small piece of the "whole nine yards" puzzle. ---

   In an earlier message, Stephen Goranson mentioned trying
unsuccessfully to contact Elaine Shepard concerning the use of "the
whole nine yards" in her book _Doom Pussy_. (Danang Officers' Open
Mess + a military patch depicting a cat eating an airplane worn by
some American bomber pilots).

    The website
http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/411150.html
mentions that Ms. Shepard passed away in Sept. 1988. The relevant passage is:

>The earliest known reference to the phrase in print is as recent as
>1967 in 'The Doom Pussy', a novel about the Vietnam War by Elaine
>Shepard. In that context the phrase refers to the difficulties a
>character has with unentangling himself from an unwanted marriage.
>It isn't clear if the author coined the phrase herself, although the
>manner of its use in the story would suggest not. Ms. Shepard died
>in September 1998, so perhaps we will never know.


Gerald Cohen


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Mar  2 22:52:13 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:52:13 -0800
Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay"
Message-ID: 

-- Doug Wilson wrote:
>But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is
>it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing"
>or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")?
>Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts
>verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"?

Doesn't have to be a subordinate clause.  It could be short for "Ich kann nichts verstehen."  Not uncommon in colloquial speech (altho 'kann' would normally be spoken)

>Or is it pidgin- German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") +
>"forstay" ("understand")?
Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no
>subject, in all pidgins.  Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc.  The
>German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a
>nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German
> easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs.

Already explained the lack of subject and word order.  [st] for standard German [St] is the rule in some dialects, as is the dropping of final [n] on infinitives.  Schwa dropping is also very common in colloquial speech.

Really, this sounds to me more like an an intended attempt by Americans to mock German.
Fritz Juengling


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Mar  2 22:57:10 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:57:10 -0500
Subject: pidgin English and "Nix Forstay"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 02:52 PM 3/2/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>-- Doug Wilson wrote:
> >But "nix-forstay" appears to be German, i.e., "nicht[s] versteh-". Why is
> >it not "forstay-nix" (= "[ich] verstehe nichts" = "[I] understand nothing"
> >or "[ich] verstehe nicht" = "[I] don't understand")?
> >Is the expression from a subordinate clause like "... weil ich nichts
> >verstehe" = "... because I don't understand anything"?
>
>Doesn't have to be a subordinate clause.  It could be short for "Ich kann
>nichts verstehen."  Not uncommon in colloquial speech (altho 'kann' would
>normally be spoken)
>
> >Or is it pidgin- German with English word order, "nix" = "nicht" ("not") +
> >"forstay" ("understand")?
>Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >The pidgin link is obvious to me; fronted negative is common, with no
> >subject, in all pidgins.  Cf. "No can do," "long time no see," etc.  The
> >German pronunciation of "nicht" could easily be transmuted to "nix" by a
> >nonnative speaker of German, 'ver' [fEr] may become 'for', [St] in German
> > easily becomes [st], and the final schwa is often deleted by NNSs.
>
>Already explained the lack of subject and word order.  [st] for standard
>German [St] is the rule in some dialects, as is the dropping of final [n]
>on infinitives.  Schwa dropping is also very common in colloquial speech.
>
>Really, this sounds to me more like an an intended attempt by Americans to
>mock German.
>Fritz Juengling

Yes, I agree, though a short-term visitor to Germany might do the same,
without mocking.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Mar  2 23:22:15 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:22:15 -0800
Subject: stoopnagle
Message-ID: 

I didn't know anyone else knew this word.  My mom used it all the time, but I don't know where she got it.  I assumed it was from the German WW2 general (I think that was his rank) Karl von Stu"lpnagel, who bungled one of the plots and was given 'Hitler's leave.'  I like your explanation better, tho.
Fritz Juengling

>>> SClements at NEO.RR.COM 02/29/04 05:06PM >>>
My dad always called someone this in the 1950's when they acted in a dumb way.

This term must have come from the radio show "Colonel Stoopnagle and Budd" from 1930's.

Has any publication picked up on the slang sense of the term--stoopnagle=stupid person?

Sam Clements


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Mar  3 02:16:19 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:16:19 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
Message-ID: 

This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways.

He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims,
meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.

Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like
movement.

I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in
dictionaries.

Benjamin Barrett


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Mar  3 03:19:08 2004
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:19:08 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

In Vancouver BC, I often hear 'that's just WRONG' as a common phrase to
express surprise or irony.

I wonder whether some of these common expressions originate from hit movies
or TV shows.

The above has an SNL flavour to it (...perhaps this final comment shows my
age more than my observation skills?)

Cheers -

Vida.
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.
     Rabbi Hyman Schachtel

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Benjamin Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Wrong and Holla

This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways.

He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims,
meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.

Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like
movement.

I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in
dictionaries.

Benjamin Barrett


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 03:43:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:43:52 -0500
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

At 6:16 PM -0800 3/2/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>?This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways.
>
>He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims,
>meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.
>
>Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like
>movement.
>
>I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in
>dictionaries.
>
The former doesn't seem that exotic to me; "right" and "wrong" to
mean 'fair'/'unfair' (as in the grading of papers) strikes me as
within familiar usage.  The latter I'm not familiar with (in the
given sense).

Larry Horn


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar  3 04:03:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:03:29 -0500
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>>He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims,
>>meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.
>>
>>Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out in a rapper-like
>>movement.
>>
>>I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla doesn't seem to be recorded in
>>dictionaries.
>The former doesn't seem that exotic to me; "right" and "wrong" to
>mean 'fair'/'unfair' (as in the grading of papers) strikes me as
>within familiar usage.  The latter I'm not familiar with (in the
>given sense).

I agree with Larry Horn about "wrong". In the emphatic use which I imagine
here, more conservative speakers might say "This is [just] not right" or
so, but I think "wrong" is reasonable too.

"Holla" is "holler" (sometimes also "hollow") meaning "yell". I don't
recognize the use for a gesture, but (e.g.) at urbandictionary.com there
are numerous entries indicating "holla" is used something like
"talk"/"speak" sometimes.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar  3 06:28:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 01:28:59 EST
Subject: Wrong; "Street Sweeper" slang irony
Message-ID: 

WRONG

In a message dated 3/2/2004 10:19:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET writes:


> In Vancouver BC, I often hear 'that's just WRONG' as a common phrase to
> express surprise or irony.
>
> I wonder whether some of these common expressions originate from hit movies
> or TV shows

   At least once a week (4 programs), DAILY SHOW host Jon Stewart will look
at a ridiculous news story  (the Janet Jackson breast incident, for example)
and tell the audience: "That's just wrong."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
STREET SWEEPER

   From the NEW YORK SUN, 2 March 2004, letters, pg. 9, col. 4:

   With regard to Errol Louis's column on cab-driver safety, there has not
been a rash of livery muggings ("The Outer-Borough Taxi Crisis," Opinion,
February 17, 2004).
   The incidents that Mr. Louis described were all perpetrated against
drivers who were doing street hails, or as we refer to them, "street sweepers."  The
drivers who strictly adhere to the law and perform only radio-dispatched
calls are never the target of these incidents.
(...)
   Eugene Pero
President, Livery Owners Coalition of New York

   What's sadly ironic here is that drivers who do street hails are called
"street sweepers," and they experience violence from guns that are also known as
"street sweepers."
   "Street sweeper" is not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG, in any
definition.

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Homicide Study: Victorian Law Report Vol 40 Appendix 6
... handguns in criminal hands) Similar moves to target semi-auto rifles
(falsely called
assault rifles) shotguns (falsely called street-sweepers) bolt-action ...
talk.politics.guns - Feb 12, 1992 by Greg Booth - View Thread (29 articles)

Re: Northern VA Mall Bans Conceal Carry
... I yield on the Ak and Rem. Probably worse that any of them is those so-
called
street sweepers. I saw one fired once. They are something else. ...
talk.politics.guns - Dec 23, 1996 by Jack Bowen - View Thread (42 articles)

Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen on gun control
... Assault weapons and these so-called street sweepers and that - I think
that's crazy. I don't think that they should be there at all. ...
talk.politics.guns - Dec 19, 1993 by karl at misty.anasazi.com - View Thread (2
articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar  3 07:57:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:57:57 EST
Subject: Sundae (1900, 1903); "I see," said the blind man
Message-ID: 

SUNDAE

   I re-checked "sundae" using Newspaperarchive.com...The "1889" MOUNTAIN
DEMOCRAT is 100 years off.  You just have to remember these errors...I had posted
the "chop suey sundae" from 1906.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Ottumwa Daily Courier - 8/5/1903
...of soda from the fine stream and some ICE CREAM ..when combined may form%
either one7.....soda clerks; others are due to some popular book or fashion
still -others come from -the.....comes in, he must say, "Will you have a SUNDAE
or a frozen or some suggestion of a.....or the word means. It is variously
spelled SUNDAE, sundea and sundee and is. said by..
Pg. 7, col. 1:
      _How They Originate._
   Sundaes are made and eaten but no one knows who was their inventor or what
the word means.  It is variously spelled sundae, sundea and sundee and is
said by some to mean "mixed" and to have originated in Chicago.  Other experts
deny this.  A breezy, stimulating drink which contains malted milk is
obtainable.  "Navaro" is the name for another package of carbonic acid gas done ip in
flavored water and cream.  St. Julian punch, egg agnostura, grape cobbler,
orange spray, coffee frappe, ambrosia flipp, chocolate bousha (which is another way
of saying frappe), Queen Bees, (a fruit lemonade), LaComa, egg a la mode, New
York beauty, Satan's delight, Delmonico dipp, Scotch rose, fautaema,
Manhattan cream, creora puff, rospho royal, Whiterock lemonade (which is foundedon
lithia water), these are selections from the list of "new" drinks.

Arizona Republican - 5/18/1904
...ICE. Grape Fruit phosphate, Strawberry ICE CREAM, Chop Suey SUNDAE.
Waihlnilon and Flnt.....the finest publication of a magazine or book nature ever
produced in. an Arizona.....every detail. Our specials today: Vanilla ICE CREAM.
Pineapple..
Phoenix, Arizona Wednesday, May 18, 1904  605 k
Pg. 5, col. 1 ad:
   Out specials today: Vanilla ice cream, Pineapple Ice, Grape Fruit
Phosphate, Strawberry Ice Cream, Chop Suey Sundae.

Grand Rapids Tribune - 4/19/1902
...the Methodist church. ICE CREAM soda, ICE CREAM SUNDAES, soda water and
PurdyV. root.....enjoyable and profitable winter. The finest ICE CREAM in the
land at the candy kitchen.....Free Press: JW. Cameron. president of the CREAM.
City Sash and Door company, left for..
Grand Rapids, Wisconsin Saturday, April 19, 1902  819 k

Arizona Republican - 8/11/1900
...to afent of railway at Btsbeej For the bett ICE CREAM go to Rlnetiart't.
208-11 West.....r.hilni rrrnmy sweet and phosphates sour, SUNDAES and but not
be aw'are that drinks..
Phoenix, Arizona Saturday, August 11, 1900  686 k
Pg. 5, col. 4:
   He may notice that there are sodas plain and sodas creamy, phosphates
sweet and phosphates sour, sundaes and lemonades, but not be aware that drinks
which cheer     to a greater extent than these are obtainable there.

Mansfield News - 8/29/1902
...to 'nine-tenths that are dispensed. The ICE CREAM '.we. make out of pure
CREAM. We.....root beer, etc., are the choICEst. Our SUNDAES and Dopes are made
out of the finest.....chocolates, fruits and CREAM. 5 cents buys Ashbrook's
soda..
Mansfield, Ohio Friday, August 29, 1902  765 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"I SEE," SAID THE BLIND MAN (continued)

   Again, PUCK probably has some variations of this, but we don't have that
yet from APS Online.  Literature Online is down at NYU.


http://info.utas.edu.au/docs/flonta/DP,2,1,96/STUDY_OF_PROVERBS.html
Wellerisms in which an animal speaks are usually allusions to fables,
although I am not sure that there is one underlying "'What a dust I raise,' said the
fly as it sat on the wheel". Wellerisms in which a man or woman speaks may be
actual remarks that caught popular fancy and became traditional: "'That I
would fain see,' said blind Hugh", which was current in the sixteenth century, may
be such a quotation, for there was then a famous wit called Blind Hugh. A
Swedish scholar has conjectured that generic names replaced specific names when
the appropriateness of the specific names was forgotten. Thus we may have,
although he does not cite this example, "'I see' said the blind man" and with a
further development involving a pun, "'I see,' said the blind man and picked up
his hammer and saw".


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Wed Mar  3 12:12:35 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 06:12:35 -0600
Subject: stoopnagle
Message-ID: 

Has it been mentioned... I has a vague childhood memory of a Col. Stoopnagle
comic strip.  Pompous bumbler, I think.
----- Original Message -----
From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: stoopnagle


> I didn't know anyone else knew this word.  My mom used it all the time,
but I don't know where she got it.  I assumed it was from the German WW2
general (snip)


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Wed Mar  3 12:56:50 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:56:50 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not
totally scientific:

http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm

Orin Hargraves
(49% yankee)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Mar  3 14:22:18 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 06:22:18 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <00b001c400c5$87e055c0$47a88e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

"This is wrong", "...so wrong", and "...sick and
wrong" -  common expressions of frustration, disgust,
unfairness, etc. in these parts.

--- Benjamin Barrett  wrote:
> This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in
> interesting ways.
>
> He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This
> is wrong," he proclaims,
> meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.
>
> Also, he used holla to mean to spread one's arms out
> in a rapper-like
> movement.
>
> I haven't checked around for wrong, but holla
> doesn't seem to be recorded in
> dictionaries.
>
> Benjamin Barrett


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 16:50:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:50:13 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: <4040D148@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: 

At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote:
>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not
>totally scientific:
>
>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>
>Orin Hargraves
>(49% yankee)

I'm skeptical.
Larry Horn
("54% dixie"--
grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin,
and New England)


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  3 17:08:09 2004
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0700
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Mar  3 17:22:55 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:22:55 -0600
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: <4040D148@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: 

>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not
>totally scientific:
>
>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>
>Orin Hargraves
>(49% yankee)

60% Dixie: 3 months (from birth to 3 mo) in Oak Ridge, TN, then
Cleveland (9 years), north of Boston (9 years), Philadelphia
(college), Milwaukee (2 years), Chicago (4 years), South Dakota (1
year), and Chicago (14+ years).

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics

(I would have liked a none-of-the above choice for some of them. B)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Mar  3 17:28:49 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:28:49 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Too bad the surveyors didn't have the survey-takers note before taking
the survey what they thought the results would be. Then it might be
more than just a fun little exercise.

Grant


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 17:36:19 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:36:19 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:22 AM -0600 3/3/04, Barbara Need wrote:
>>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
>>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun,
>>even if not
>>totally scientific:
>>
>>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>>
>>Orin Hargraves
>>(49% yankee)
>
>60% Dixie: 3 months (from birth to 3 mo) in Oak Ridge, TN, then
>Cleveland (9 years), north of Boston (9 years), Philadelphia
>(college), Milwaukee (2 years), Chicago (4 years), South Dakota (1
>year), and Chicago (14+ years).
>
>Barbara Need
>UChicago--Linguistics
>
>(I would have liked a none-of-the above choice for some of them. B)

I actually left some blank--selecting any of the choices would have
been a lie.  It's quite poorly designed, but then it was designed by
computer scientists, evidently, not by dialectologists.

Larry Horn, the born-again Southerner


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Mar  3 17:28:23 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:28:23 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:50 AM 3/3/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote:
>>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
>>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even
>>if not
>>totally scientific:
>>
>>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>>
>>Orin Hargraves
>>(49% yankee)
>
>I'm skeptical.
>Larry Horn
>("54% dixie"--
>grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin,
>and New England)

Yes, it's pretty simplistic, as if the whole country speaks either New
England or Deep South!  The plural 'you' question doesn't even include "you
guys" or just plain "you."  And is pron. of "pajamas" a regional issue or a
style/register one?  The Harvard survey at least produced maps of variant
forms; this spinoff is just black or white (but doesn't account for blacks
at all).


From alcockg at SRICRM.COM  Wed Mar  3 17:47:14 2004
From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:47:14 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <200403030216.VAA02813@adamant.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: 

I picked up "wrong" from co-workers in Northern California about six years
ago.

Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final word in the
sentence: "This is _wrong_."

It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a
situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust.
Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious.

Gwyn Alcock
Redlands, California

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Wrong and Holla

This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways.

He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong," he proclaims,
meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Mar  3 17:54:22 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:54:22 -0800
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

Well, I'm only 53% dixie altho the time I have spent in Dixie could be measured in hours (and that includes several trips to El Paso, Texas.
One problem with the test is that there are several questions for which I would choose none of the above, but that was not an option.  For example, I had never called the long road next to a freeway anything (It never occured to me that it should be called anything), nor had I ever heard anyone call it anything until I lived in Minnesota.  (It does seem to me that the concept seemed more important to Minnesotans than Oregonians--there isn't always a long road next to the freeways here. Probably too many trees and rivers here)
Fritz Juengling

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 03/03/04 08:50AM >>>
At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote:
>Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs, based
>on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if not
>totally scientific:
>
>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>
>Orin Hargraves
>(49% yankee)

I'm skeptical.
Larry Horn
("54% dixie"--
grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin,
and New England)


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Mar  3 17:49:23 2004
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:49:23 -0700
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Mar  3 17:43:47 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:43:47 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to
this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
conviction that New Paltz is downstate.

This is not simply north/south perspective. People from Rochester don't
consider Elmira to be downstate. Even though it is south of Rochester, it
is still upstate New York.

New York has its greatest land mass north of Pennsylvania, an area that
the inhabitants consider upstate. There is a southern panhandle, and
upstaters call anything in that panhandle, i.e., anything south of the
Catskills, to be downstate. Metropolitan New Yorkers seem to consider
anything north of the Tappan Zee Bridge to be upstate. (As anything
beyond New Jersey is "the West.")

I wonder whether the citizens of New Paltz consider themselves upstate or
downstate.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Mar  3 18:12:55 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:12:55 +0000
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Wednesday, March 3, 2004 12:43 pm -0500 Duane Campbell
 wrote:
>
> With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to
> this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
> Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
> conviction that New Paltz is downstate.

(etc.)

You might want to check the ADS-L archives, as this topic has come up at
least twice before.

Lynne, Upstate native


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 18:46:52 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:46:52 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <20040303.130212.-102915.0.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

Duane Campbell said:
>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to
>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
>conviction that New Paltz is downstate.

And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most
definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But
my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's
south of Albany, is still upstate to me.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Mar  3 19:26:21 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:26:21 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

Yes, do consult the archives.  I remember responding to this issue some
time ago.  I would be interested in how these terms are used in states
with considerably greater n/s orientation as apposed to e/w--e.g.
California, Idaho, Alabama, Florida, etc.   What do Canadians do--up
province?

Regards,
David Barnhart

barnhart at highlands.com


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Wed Mar  3 19:26:41 2004
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:26:41 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

It works similarly in Illinois, where the distinction is between Chicago
and downstate.  Rockford is downstate.

Herb


Duane Campbell said:
>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring
to
>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
>conviction that New Paltz is downstate.

And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most
definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But
my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's
south of Albany, is still upstate to me.

--
 =======================================================================
======
Alice Faber
faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203)
865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203)
865-8963


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 19:56:22 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:56:22 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <200403031926.ARG65386@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 02:26 PM 3/3/2004, you wrote:
>It works similarly in Illinois, where the distinction is between Chicago
>and downstate.  Rockford is downstate.

Speaking as a former denizen of Southern Illinois I can attest that Joliet
is downstate.

Geoff


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 19:57:39 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:57:39 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:46 PM -0500 3/3/04, Alice Faber wrote:
>Duane Campbell said:
>>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to
>>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
>>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
>>conviction that New Paltz is downstate.
>
>And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most
>definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But
>my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's
>south of Albany, is still upstate to me.
>
And for some native New Yorkers [= native-NYCers], Yonkers is
upstate.  I don't think it works like Chicagoans w.r.t. Rockford,
though--Long Island is never "upstate", it's just the tertium datur:
the City, Upstate, the Island.  Then there's the finer-grained
definition, whereby the City = Manhattan, leaving the outer boroughs
unclassified.

Larry Horn
(grade school in the City, high school on the Island, college Upstate)


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Mar  3 20:28:45 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:28:45 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

American Dialect Society  writes:
>Yonkers is
>upstate.

It isn't for folks who liver there or nearby.  Indeed, I have the
impression that people who commute to NYC do not consider themselves
"upstate" at least from the end of MetroNorth RR commutation runs.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 20:41:23 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:41:23 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn said:
>At 1:46 PM -0500 3/3/04, Alice Faber wrote:
>>Duane Campbell said:
>>>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring to
>>>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
>>>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
>>>conviction that New Paltz is downstate.
>>
>>And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most
>>definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But
>>my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's
>>south of Albany, is still upstate to me.
>>
>And for some native New Yorkers [= native-NYCers], Yonkers is
>upstate.  I don't think it works like Chicagoans w.r.t. Rockford,
>though--Long Island is never "upstate", it's just the tertium datur:
>the City, Upstate, the Island.  Then there's the finer-grained
>definition, whereby the City = Manhattan, leaving the outer boroughs
>unclassified.

Is there a noun for where the "Bridge and Tunnel people" live? For
me, that phrase refers to the denizens of the outer boroughs, and,
possibly, also Hoboken.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar  3 20:42:40 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:42:40 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <200403030947.1aYAsY5pL3NZFkD0@kite>
Message-ID: 

>...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a
>situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust.
>Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious.

I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many
science fiction fans.  A human is making love to an alien, another
human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."

Rima


From edlawson at NETSYNC.NET  Wed Mar  3 20:49:16 2004
From: edlawson at NETSYNC.NET (Ed Lawson)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:49:16 -0500
Subject: American Name Society/San Francisco Jan 2005
Message-ID: 

American Name Society with the Linguistic Society of America

CALL FOR PAPERS, PROGRAM SUGGESTIONS, AND PARTICIPANTS

First Call: February 15, 2004 for San Francisco, January 6-9, 2005

San Francisco 2005.

The American Name Society invites abstracts for papers and program
suggestions for ANS sessions to be held in conjunction with the
Linguistic Society of America, the American Dialect Society, and other
organizations in San Francisco, 6-9 January 2005.

The preferred mode of transmission of abstracts or proposals is by email
or e-mail attachment sent to: edlawson at netsync.net


Abstracts sent by surface mail are acceptable and should be addressed to:

                                                               Edwin D.
Lawson
                                                               23
Westerly Drive
                                                               Fredonia
NY 14063

The meetings will take place at the Hyatt Regency Embarcadero.  The
rates for a single/ double room are $115.00.

Abstracts on any area of onomastics are appropriate. Abstracts of
150-200 words should be sent as soon as convenient but not later than 1
September 2004.  Proposals for panel discussions, nominations for
distinguished or speakers, or other types of proposal are due by August 1.

Eligibility.  Membership in the American Name Society is a requirement.
There is also an ANS registration fee (to cover items not covered by
LSA, projector use, ANS printed programs, badges, etc.).  The charge in
Boston was $16.

There is a registration fee due the Linguistic Society of America (in
addition to getting greatly reduced hotel rates, LSA offers us many
special lectures and the book exhibit). This year the regular fee was
$70 with other rates for students/retirees and for just one day.
Sessions of the American Dialect Society and other allied groups are
also open to ANS members.

If a paper is accepted for ANS, the abstract will be published in the
LSA 180-page Meeting Handbook as well as the ANS program.  Further
information on registration and on the hotel is to be available in May.

 All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously and senders will be
notified by 15 September, 2004 or as soon as possible after that date.

 Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and
the 2005 LSA meeting in San Francisco can be obtained from the LSA
homepage,  www.lsadc.org 

***********************************

ANS/LSA San Francisco, January 2005

Preliminary Indication of Interest



Your completion of this form at this time will help us plan the meeting.

Please include:



Author's name:

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Address:



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Proposal Suggestion





Time requested: 20 minutes + 10 minutes discussion NO DISCUSSANT.

                                          Or

                             20 minutes + 3 minutes DISCUSSANT + 7 minutes discussion



Special equipment (overhead projector, slide projector, etc.).



Special scheduling requests:







  Details about membership in the American Name Society are at:

                            http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/



--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM  Wed Mar  3 20:52:23 2004
From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:52:23 -0700
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <200403031343116.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: 

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

  >>...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done,
something or a
>>situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust.
>>Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious.
>
>
> I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many
> science fiction fans.  A human is making love to an alien, another
> human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."
>
> Rima
>
>

...and a line from a Kris Kristofferson song,  around 1973 (describing a
hangover):

"Like my thick ol' tongue was lickin' somethin' sick and wrong"

--
Steve Clason
Boulder, Colorado, USA


From panton at CYC.COM  Wed Mar  3 21:15:47 2004
From: panton at CYC.COM (Kathy Panton)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:15:47 -0600
Subject: Heavens to Betsy and X hands 'round!
In-Reply-To: <200403030501.i2351Hcf018809@moon.cyc.com>
Message-ID: 

>From:    "Douglas G. Wilson" 
>
>Why is the interjection sometimes augmented with "X hands round" as if it
>were a dance call? Is/was there really such a call?
>
>
>
Doug,

"X hands round" is definitely used in Scottish Country Dance calling
(and perhaps in Irish, English, and contra dancing as well). An "X hands
round" call means that a set of dancers forms a circle, with hands
joined, and does a sort of sideways slipstep move in one direction, and
then usually back again after a few bars. (Yikes; I can't remember
whether the default starting direction is clockwise or
counterclockwise!) "4 hands round" is 2 dancers; "6 hands round" is 3
dancers; and so on.

Why "X hands round" would be appended to "Heavens to Betsy", I haven't a
clue. Scottish Country Dancing has been common in the U.S. since well
before the Korean War.

Kathy


===========================================
Kathy Panton                        Cycorp
panton at cyc.com                512-342-4009
===========================================


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar  3 21:25:41 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:25:41 EST
Subject: Val-girl [sic] "like"
Message-ID: 

"Val-girl 'like' is a misnomer for a usage that has been found everywhere in 
the USA for over a generation.

Now, why anyone would want to, uhm, "curb" its use (much less think that such 
an effort is anything but, oh, totally futile) is, well, soooo another 
matter.

In a message dated 2/5/04 11:49:38 PM, grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET writes:


> The ADS once named filler "like" as the "most likely to succeed" linguistic 
> novelty.? The 3 Feb Wall Street Journal (p. D1) has an article on the 
> generation that has grown up using it like all the time and some efforts to curb 
> that use.? My own efforts are described at 
> http://www.stcpmc.org/pdf/OnlineOct_Nov.pdf.
> 


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar  3 21:43:13 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:43:13 -0500
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>>...It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a
>>situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or unjust.
>>Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious.
>
>I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many
>science fiction fans.  A human is making love to an alien, another
>human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."
>
>Rima
~~~~~~~~~
Then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "Eating People is Wrong!"

(Donald sings)
I won't eat people....
I won't eat people....
Eating people is wrong.

A. Murie


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar  3 21:55:41 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:55:41 -0800
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: <200403030501.1aYw032MX3NZFjw0@skylark>
Message-ID: 

>
>http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm

Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this?  I got
through to chuckchamblee.com and then to chuckchamblee.com/dom but
could get no further.  And why would this be attached to a racing car
site?  I am confused...

Rima


From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 21:55:34 2004
From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:55:34 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
 usage
Message-ID: 

Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.

Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.

These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.

In case anyone wanted to know,
Joshua Nimocks


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Mar  3 22:43:00 2004
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:43:00 -0800
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in              usage
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Hi Joshua,

Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch

Vida.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Joshua Nimocks
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
usage

Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.

Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.

These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.

In case anyone wanted to know,
Joshua Nimocks


From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 22:50:31 2004
From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:50:31 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in              usage
In-Reply-To: <200403032242.i23AS21T028181@anderson.acpub.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
clan.'

-Joshua Nimocks


On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Vida J Morkunas 
> Subject:      Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
>               in              usage
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Joshua,
>
> Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch
>
> Vida.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> Joshua Nimocks
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
> usage
>
> Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
> Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.
>
> Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
> headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.
>
> These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
> have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.
>
> In case anyone wanted to know,
> Joshua Nimocks
>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Wed Mar  3 22:59:10 2004
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:59:10 -0600
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language
 stillin              usage
Message-ID: 

We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities.

sally donlon



Joshua Nimocks wrote:

> I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
> clan.'
>
> -Joshua Nimocks
>
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       Vida J Morkunas 
> > Subject:      Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
> >               in              usage
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi Joshua,
> >
> > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch
> >
> > Vida.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> > Joshua Nimocks
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
> > usage
> >
> > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
> > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.
> >
> > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
> > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.
> >
> > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
> > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.
> >
> > In case anyone wanted to know,
> > Joshua Nimocks
> >


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 23:09:28 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:09:28 -0500
Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948)
In-Reply-To: <46CA55B8.6007AC79.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this?
>
> (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall,
> Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948
> "I see," said the blind man --

This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism.

"Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew.
        John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533)

"We'll say nothing, but we'll see," as blind Pete said to his dog.
        Fraser's Magazine, vol. 6 (1832)

"I'd like to see you," as the blind man said to the policeman when he told
him he would take him to the station house if he did not move on.
        Yankee Notions, vol. 10 (1848)

"Let me see," said the blind man.
        Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend (1864)

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Wed Mar  3 23:32:56 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:32:56 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in              usage
Message-ID: 

All right, keen-eyed Josh, you have me at a disadvantage, since I haven't a copy of the OED at hand.  But isn't your 601 evidence for "town" from "Aethelbert's Laws"?  If so, haven't you overlooked the closed lexical categories?  Surely you'll find the whole range of English prepositions, one or more conjunctions ("and," "[yogh]if"), the "definite article" or demonstrative adjective "[thorn]e," and other such words in the same text.  All of the earlier texts are interlinear glosses, I think, so constitute a different sort of evidence, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that they are indeed the first written "uses" of the words in question -- does none of the glosses include a preposition?  It would be odd if none did.  I would look at OED entries for prepositions and conjunctions before asserting that some noun or other is the oldest written word.

Nouns are so full of themselves; sorry, but I just feel that it's my responsibility to stand up for the little words.


From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 23:49:01 2004
From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:49:01 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <20040303202934.2A195AFA8F@alvin.haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

Both are true.  To people from NYC anything north of the Bronx is "upstate",
but as a native Yonkersian (?) I can attest that no one I knew from home
considered our fair city to be part of that northern region - uh, area.

I have a friend from Yonkers who tells people she is from "south eastern
New York State" to be clear that she is neither from the city nor upstate.

An acquaintance from Plattsburgh always said he was from "north eastern
New York State" so as to be clear that he wasn't from Westchester.

Larissa

++>Yonkers is
++>upstate.
++
++It isn't for folks who liver there or nearby.  Indeed, I have the
++impression that people who commute to NYC do not consider themselves
++"upstate" at least from the end of MetroNorth RR commutation runs.
++
++Regards,
++David


From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Mar  3 23:56:25 2004
From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:56:25 -0500
Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people
In-Reply-To: <20040303204127.E544AAFA8F@alvin.haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

I'd use the noun New Jersey.  I guess this excludes LI.  From my current
perspective west of the Hudson.

But I've never thought of outer boroughers as part of the bridge
and tunnel crowd.

Larissa

++Is there a noun for where the "Bridge and Tunnel people" live? For
++me, that phrase refers to the denizens of the outer boroughs, and,
++possibly, also Hoboken.


From jgn3 at DUKE.EDU  Thu Mar  4 00:10:19 2004
From: jgn3 at DUKE.EDU (Joshua Nimocks)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:10:19 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in usage
Message-ID: 

Re: Michael Adams.

Alright, the email server at Duke is really messed up, so I'm responding
to what I see for the discussion list at the website.  Anyways...

I guess the key qualifier to my assertion here is "still in usage"

I checked "and", "the", and "that."

"and" first appears c700 in the Epinal Glossary.
"the" first appears c700 in the Epinal Glossary, in plural form
"that" first appears c825 in the Vespasian Psalter.

Weren't Aethelbert's Laws composed in Kent?  Maybe in that case, the
Kentish dialectal counterparts for the conjunction, definite article,
demonstrative adjective, etc. were quite different from the West Saxon
ones.  I really know nothing about Old English, so this is a mere guess.
But if I'm right then the prepositions, articles, etc. in Aethelbert's
Laws might have fallen out of usage long, long ago, making them irrelevant
to the OED, to be replaced by the West Saxon ones.

Feel free to say otherwise and put me in my place...

-Joshua Nimocks


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Mar  4 00:30:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:30:19 -0800
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I searched the archives for "upstate" in the subject line and found only
today's discussion.

Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had heard
"upstate" only in connection with NY.  So there's always a first time, but
I've never heard the term used in connection with any western state, and I
assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the Mississippi.  To my
knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and Southern CA.
To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to involve
a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the
state.  Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of its
two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context for
"upstate" or "downstate."

I don't know enough about Idaho to say whether the terms are or or not
used, but the only word I've ever heard for any specific part of the state
is "the panhandle" (i.e., the narrow part that barely keeps Washington and
Montana from bumping into each other).

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, March 3, 2004 2:26 PM -0500 Barnhart
 wrote:

> Yes, do consult the archives.  I remember responding to this issue some
> time ago.  I would be interested in how these terms are used in states
> with considerably greater n/s orientation as apposed to e/w--e.g.
> California, Idaho, Alabama, Florida, etc.   What do Canadians do--up
> province?
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
>
> barnhart at highlands.com



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar  4 02:09:18 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:09:18 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language
 stillin              usage
In-Reply-To: <4046633E.3E38DFE2@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:59 PM -0600 3/3/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
>We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities.
>
>sally donlon
>
e.g. Chicago

larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar  4 02:16:56 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:16:56 -0500
Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 6:56 PM -0500 3/3/04, Larissa H. Chen wrote:
>I'd use the noun New Jersey.  I guess this excludes LI.  From my current
>perspective west of the Hudson.
>
>But I've never thought of outer boroughers as part of the bridge
>and tunnel crowd.
>
>Larissa
>
I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least
after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions
about the other outer boroughs.  I know, you'd usually get to S.I.
from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of
quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit.  (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry
crowd?)  The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but
they're not suburban enough to qualify.  I'm not sure about Queens.

larry horn


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 02:23:36 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:23:36 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in usage
Message-ID: 

No, the prepositions aren't merely Kentish -- they're in the 601 quotes (I've checked since I last wrote).  The problem with antedating in the OED is that the OED has to present the word in the first quotation -- this is usually true, even in the case of the functional words, but not always -- sometimes you have to recover the first citations for functional words in quotations for other words, you know, the nouns :-).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 03:02:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:02:54 -0500
Subject: Cushion Meat (1996)
Message-ID: 

CUSHION MEAT
(Brought to you by Barry Popik, just let out of parking tickets for the day)

Those who prefer turf to surf should start with the "cushion meat" ($7), thin cutlets of pork shoulder treated with a peppery citrus marinade.
--NEW YORK SUN, 3 March 2004, pg. 21, col. 2
(This article is also on FACTIVA)

CUSHION MEAT--398 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits

   "Cushion meat" is not in the OED.  A Google search for "cushion meat" + "dictionary" turns up zero hits. The food dictionary competition (what there is of it) just isn't very good.
   Factiva has 2374 hits, but going back only to 1996.  Most of the articles are titled "ODJ USDA Meat Prices."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: bill at pipping.com (bill at pipping.com)
Subject: Re: Cushion meat
Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue
Date: 2003-08-16 07:07:42 PST

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:28:39 -0500, Steve Wertz
 wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:19:36 -0700, Bill
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Howdy all. So, what is cushion meat and how can I use it?
>>
>> Was going through the meat section and there was this 12 pound vac pac
>>of Farmer John boneless cushion meat for 97 cents a pound. Is it useful
>>for Q or is it dog food?
>
>The cushion refers to a specific muscle in a front leg of swine from
>what I remember.  It can be smoked if there's some fat left on it.
>Otherwise it can be used for anything that calls for boneless pork.
>
>I haven't seen anything specifically labelled that in quite a while.
>
>-sw

I was in Smart & Final yesterday buying some lump, and saw the same
thing in there.
I Googled it, and found the same thing you said.
I might try one.

--
Bill


(FACTIVA)
etc. Meatout Ham slicing
404 words
13 March 1996
Peoria Journal Star
All
C1
English
(Copyright 1996)

Meatout

Break out the tofu: next Wednesday is the 12th annual Great American Meatout, sponsored by the Farm Animal Reform Movement (FARM).

Organizers of the project, which is modeled after the Great American Smokeout, are encouraging Americans to "kick the meat habit, at least for a day."

"Numerous consumer, environmental and animal protection groups, as well as public officials, health providers, clergy, educators, writers, entertainers and others believe that consumers are entitled to a one-day response to the relentless barrage of self-serving promotional messages from the meat industry," reads a FARM press release.

Ham slicing

Easter is approaching, which means it's time for some people to start honing their ham-carving technique. The Pork Information Bureau offers these instructions for slicing a bone-in ham:

*For a whole ham: Place the ham on a cutting board with the shank -- or lower leg -- to the carver's right. Steady the ham with a fork and cut a few slices from the thin side of the leg. This provides a base to set the ham as you continue to carve.

Place the ham on the side where you've removed slices. Make perpendicular slices to the leg bone. To loosen the slices, cut along the leg bone with the knife, removing each slice with the fork.

*For the shank half of a ham: Position the ham with the shank end to the carver's left, with the thicker piece of meat -- the "cushion" meat -- on top. Using a fork to steady the ham, cut along the top of the bone to loosen the boneless cushion meat.

Place the cushion meat carved-side down on the cutting board and cut in perpendicular slices. Transfer slices to a serving platter.
(...)

---------------------------------------------------------------
NO REAL REASON FOR LIVING (PART A MILLION OR SO) (continued, of course)

(NEXIS)
Copyright 2004 National Broadcasting Co. Inc.
NBC News Transcripts
SHOW: Today (7:00 AM ET) - NBC
February 26, 2004 Thursday
LENGTH: 441 words
HEADLINE: Weather report
ANCHORS: ANN CURRY
REPORTERS: AL ROKER
BODY:
ANN CURRY, anchor:

You're up to date at 5 minutes past the hour. It's time for TODAY'S WEATHER forecast with Al in Chicago.

JOE WITTE, announcer: TODAY'S WEATHER is brought to you by...

AL ROKER reporting:

And good morning, everybody. Of course, everybody knows Chicago is known as the Windy City. But it's not why you think. Take a look.

Chicago, the architecture, the lake. Oh, yeah, and the wind. It wasn't those nasty Alberta Clippers, but a very different kind of wind that forever branded Chicago the Windy City. Desperate to win the competition to host the 1893 World's Fair, Chicago put on a full-court press against chief rival, New York City.

Mr. RUSSELL LEWIS (Historian): Somewhere along the line, the people in New York just were so tired of hearing Chicagoans talk about how great their city was, that an editorial appeared in the New York Sun referred to Chicago as that Windy City, referring to all the hot wind that came out of its boosters.

ROKER: But it's that bitter cold wind that most people associate with the Windy City. So we were curious. Just how windy is the Windy City?

Mr. JIM STEFKOVICH (National Weather Service): There are many cities, about 50 or so cities, with higher wind speed averages than Chicago, and that includes New York City, Boston, Milwaukee, San Francisco and the like.

ROKER: So does Chicago's weather get a bad wrap?

Unidentified Man: It's difficult, but it's nice to have four seasons as well.

ROKER: Well, you certainly don't hear any complaints about those lake-front breezes come August.
(...)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Mar  4 03:04:25 2004
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:04:25 -0600
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language
 stillin              usage
In-Reply-To: <4046633E.3E38DFE2@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: 

Not just rural areas.  The Chicago City Council is made up of alderman, and they have aldermanic elections.

Herb


We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities.

sally donlon



Joshua Nimocks wrote:

> I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
> clan.'
>
> -Joshua Nimocks
>
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       Vida J Morkunas 
> > Subject:      Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
> >               in              usage
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi Joshua,
> >
> > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch
> >
> > Vida.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> > Joshua Nimocks
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
> > usage
> >
> > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
> > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.
> >
> > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
> > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.
> >
> > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
> > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.
> >
> > In case anyone wanted to know,
> > Joshua Nimocks
> >


From alcockg at SRICRM.COM  Thu Mar  4 03:20:00 2004
From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:20:00 -0800
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <200403040032.TAA08178@excellent.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: 

True, usually when we point fingers about tax bases vs. expenditures, water
rights, and whether to say "the" when mentioning a freeway number, it's
always northern vs. southern California, not up- and downstate.

I could imagine somebody in the San Francisco/Sacramento areas saying
"upstate" when referring to Redding or Eureka or Shasta, however; there's an
entire third of the state north of the Bay Area. I've just never heard it.

Gwyn Alcock
Redlands, CA
(born in northern, raised in southern, lived in both)

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Peter A. McGraw
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 4:30 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Upstate/downstate

 To my
knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and Southern CA.
To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to involve
a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the
state.  Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of its
two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context for
"upstate" or "downstate."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar  4 03:30:52 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:30:52 -0500
Subject: "I see" said the blind man (1948)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:28PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this?
> >
> > (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall,
> > Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948
> > "I see," said the blind man --
>
> This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism.
>
> "Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew.
>         John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533)

Face!

Barry, even you've never found a 400-year antedating....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar  4 03:29:42 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:29:42 -0500
Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least
> after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions
> about the other outer boroughs.  I know, you'd usually get to S.I.
> from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of
> quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit.  (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry
> crowd?)  The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but
> they're not suburban enough to qualify.  I'm not sure about Queens.

??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the
archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about
those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards
(i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were
especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban.

Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get
there, it's what it's like.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Mar  4 04:03:55 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:03:55 -0500
Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people
In-Reply-To: <20040304032942.GA7958@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>  I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least
>>  after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions
>>  about the other outer boroughs.  I know, you'd usually get to S.I.
>>  from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of
>>  quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit.  (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry
>>  crowd?)  The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but
>>  they're not suburban enough to qualify.  I'm not sure about Queens.
>
>??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the
>archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about
>those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards
>(i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were
>especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban.
>
>Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get
>there, it's what it's like.
>

Thanks, Jesse. I was pretty sure of that usage (along with the
facetious Hoboken), but I'm pretty loath to quarrel with Larry's
Sprachgef?hl.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 04:41:27 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:41:27 -0500
Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card
Message-ID: 

DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS

   Another helping of a dear, deer topic.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
  Dan Quayle's Got The Right Stuff
By Richard N. Perle WASHINGTON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 25, 1988. p. A31 (1 page)
   But, you may ask, could this be the same man you saw in the debate with Lloyd Bentsen--caught, as one commentator put it, like a deer in the headlights, frozen with fear?

(FACTIVA)
WILLIAMS SMOOTHS THE SHARP EDGES OF THE BAD JOKES IN LIFE
By Jerry Schwartz, The Associated Press
952 words
23 January 1989
The Record, Northern New Jersey
All Editions.=.Four Star B. Four Star P. Two Star. One; Star
b07
English
(Copyright 1989)

Robin Williams traverses the country, ridiculing Republicans. Ronald Reagan is "the world's largest Muppet." Dan Quayle is "the Stepford candidate." George Bush is a political hypnotist: "T'ousand points of light, watch de watch."
(...)
Some audiences balk at political humor, and "they'll look like a deer in the headlights of a Peterbilt [a tractor-trailer!."


(FACTIVA)
THE HUNT // An urge as ancient as man lingers in the air of autumn
Ron Schara; Staff Writer
668 words
7 September 1986
Star-Tribune Newspaper of the Twin Cities Mpls.-St. Paul
METRO
17C
English
(Copyright 1986)

The Hunt has begun.

The Hunt.

More than seasons and limits. More than a license to kill. On Saturday, grouse and squirrels, rabbits and huns become legal targets in Minnesota. Deer, too, by bow and arrow.

These are but opening dates.

The Hunt in mankind started eons ago. Our canine teeth are duller now but - for some of us - the Hunt lingers in the air of September.

And September has come.

A few of us the other day were discussing the Hunt. Cecil Bell was talking. He's a deer hunter. Hunts with bow and arrow.

It's powerful stuff, the memories of the Hunt. Bell recalled the moment he saw the second largest whitetail buck ever taken in Manitoba. It was ambling toward Bell's ambush site. And he was armed with razor broadheads.

Please remember, millions of folks have seen deer in the headlights, in zoos, in the wild.

But a hunter sees deer differently.
(...)

---------------------------------------------------------------
PLAY THE "X" CARD

   An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today.  On JSTOR, AMERICAN SPEECH "Among the New Words" traces this back to 1978.  JSTOR  features allow better searching, however.  There are lots of hits, summarized below.


(JSTOR)
The New York Building Trades
John R. Commons
The Quarterly Journal of Economics, Vol. 18, No. 3. (May, 1904), pp. 409-436
Pg. 430:  THese sensations undoubtedly made owners timid and retarded new enterprises; and this timidity of capital was the card, and the only card, that this union had to play.

(in Book Reviews)
Politische Correspondenz Friedrich's des Grossen
Gustav Berthold Volz
Review author[s]: Walter L. Dorn
The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 2, No. 4. (Dec., 1930), pp. 661-665
Pg. 664:  They reflect the monarch's growing consciousness that in contingencies such as this one Prussia had but a single trump card to play--the army--and that, whenever she played the card, the whole existence of Prussia was at stake.

British Public Opinion and Foreign Policy
Harold Nicolson
The Public Opinion Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 1. (Jan., 1937), pp. 53-63.
Pg. 56:  And they took it for granted that, should circumstances require them to play the last card in foreign policy, namely the card of force, the public would automatically support them even if it came to war.

Briefer Notices (in Book Reviews and Notices)
The American Political Science Review, Vol. 25, No. 1. (Feb., 1931), pp. 214-239
Pg. 229:  ...the German decision to play the last card, unrestricted submarine warfare.

Belgium Unvanquished
Roger Motz
Review author[s]: Lady Galway
Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 41, No. 165. (Oct., 1942), pp. 239-240.
Pg. 240:  Already during the last war Germany did her utmost to play the Flemish separatists' card, and exasperate Walloon feelings.

Japanese Uncertainties
R. Guillain
International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jul., 1950), pp. 329-338.
Pg. 330:  ...economically, to re-make Japan as a factory for Asia, and if possible an American factory; internationally, to make Japan "play the American card".

Catholic Parties in Latin Europe
R. V. Burks
The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 24, No. 3. (Sep., 1952), pp. 269-286.
Pg. 286:  Having lost the electoral game, the Popular Front has now only the power of riot and insurrection.  Should it attempt to play this card, the transition to authoritarianism will be sudden rather than gradual.

The Russian Overture to Germany of December 1924
Zygmunt J. Gasiorowski
The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 30, No. 2. (Jun., 1958), pp. 99-117.
Pg. 110, note 51:  Since Poland was even more alarmed than Russia by the German move, Moscow began to play the Polish card.

Italy's Neutrality and Entrance into the Great War: A Re-examination
William A. Renzi
The American Historical Review, Vol. 73, No. 5. (Jun., 1968), pp. 1414-1432.
Pg.   1425:  To the last both were reluctant to play the "terrible card" of war.

The Political Balance in Saigon
Peter King
Pacific Affairs, Vol. 44, No. 3. (Autumn, 1971), pp. 401-420.
Pg. 405, footnote:  Minh is seen as a big card to play at a certain point in the Paris game.

Sun Yat-sen and the Japanese: 1914-16
Albert A. Altman; Harold Z. Schiffrin
Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 6, No. 4. (1972), pp. 385-400.
Pg. 392:  The following month, when the southern anti-monarchist army still encountered strong resistance, the Japanese finally decided to play their Sun Yat-sen card, but through private, unofficial channels.

National Socialism and Antisemitism: The Case of Maurice Barres
Zeev Sternhell
Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 8, No. 4. (Oct., 1973), pp. 47-66.
Pg. 61:   Fortified by his personal experience, he reproached Boulanger for the General's refusal to play the antisemitic card; his opposition to basing the movement on antisemitism and socialism was the main reason for its defeat.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar  4 04:52:05 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:52:05 -0500
Subject: Bridge and Tunnel people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:16:56PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>>
>>>  I would reckon Staten Island as being part of that crowd (at least
>>>  after the Verrazzano was built), but I don't have similar intuitions
>>>  about the other outer boroughs.  I know, you'd usually get to S.I.
>>>  from "the City" (i.e. Manhattan) by ferry, but it does seem sort of
>>>  quasi-Jersey-like, you have to admit.  (Bridge-tunnel-and-ferry
>>>  crowd?)  The Bronx and Brooklyn you'd get to by bridge or tunnel, but
>>>  they're not suburban enough to qualify.  I'm not sure about Queens.
>>
>>??? You're kidding, right, Larry? Queens and Brooklyn are the
>>archetypal B&T crowd. Not suburban enough? Let's forget about
>>those $2M apartments in Williamsburg--by Manhattan standards
>>(i.e. the Manhattan of the 1980s when these terms were
>>especially prevalent) Brooklyn and Queens were way suburban.
>>
>>Satan Island [sic] qualifies as well. It's not how you get
>>there, it's what it's like.
>>
>
>Thanks, Jesse. I was pretty sure of that usage (along with the
>facetious Hoboken), but I'm pretty loath to quarrel with Larry's
>Sprachgef?hl.
>
Ach, just being Sprachgef?hlisch again--I've been out of the City too
long, it appears...

larry horn


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Mar  4 05:07:44 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:07:44 -0600
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: <20040303215549.67E544C71@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3/3/2004 01:55 PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
> >
> >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>
>Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this?

Interestingly, when I try to navigate to that URL I get the Internet
Explorer version of the 404 message, even though I am using Netscape.  This
suggests that we are not getting real 404 messages, but that the page
actually residing at that URL is a copy of the IE 404 message.  I was able
to take the test by Googling "Harvard Computer Dialect Survey" and going
the the cached copy of this page.

And FWIW, in spite of the flaws in the test, this lifelong Midwesterner
scored a predictable 38%.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Mar  4 08:45:33 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:45:33 -0800
Subject: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: <200403032138.1aYLyx7lY3NZFjK0@condor>
Message-ID: 

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Tom Kysilko 
>Subject:      Re: "Yankee" and "Dixie" dialects
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 3/3/2004 01:55 PM -0800, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>  >
>>  >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
>>
>  >Why do I only get a 404 url not found when I try to get this?
>
>... I was able
>to take the test by Googling "Harvard Computer Dialect Survey" and going
>the the cached copy of this page.

Thanks.  Unfortunately, though I was able to get there via Google,
the survey was closed.  Oh well.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 08:55:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:55:45 EST
Subject: Blind Man (16th century); Beep (1952); Buyer's Remorse; Frienemies
Message-ID: 

BLIND MAN
    
    Amazing...Every day is like this.  I recently wrote to the New Orleans 
Fair Grounds to tell them again about my first grade project, done twelve years 
ago.  No response!
    Jesse writes:
  

On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:28PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Does Fred Shapiro have an earlier hit for this?
> >
> > (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: A killer is loose among us / Author(s): Terrall,
> > Robert. Publication: New York : Duell, Sloan and Pearce, Year: 1948
> > "I see," said the blind man --
>
> This is, of course, the most famous Wellerism.
>
> "Marry, that I would see! quoth blind Hew.
>    John Heywood, The Pardoner and the Frere (1533)

Face!

Barry, even you've never found a 400-year antedating....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED
    
  
   Fred Shapiro made his post at 6 p.m.  No one saw this in a post that I had 
made at 3 a.m.--15 hours before?  No one read "blind man" on my post's 
subject line?  No one?  No one:
   
    Wellerisms in which a man or woman speaks may be
actual remarks that caught popular fancy and became traditional: "'That I
would fain see,' said blind Hugh", which was current in the sixteenth 
century, may
be such a quotation, for there was then a famous wit called Blind Hugh. A
Swedish scholar has conjectured that generic names replaced specific names 
when
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BEEP
  
   This never ends.  I was asked to beat this:
 
beep, borough president. 8.23.1980
    
  
   As I posted here on 13 December 2000, over three years ago, from the 
Brooklyn College library:
    
21 October 1952, KEN, pg. 5, col. 1--...Borough President John 
Cashmore..."Beep" Cashmore.(Compare with VP=Veep--ed.)
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BUYER'S REMORSE
    
http://www.johnellis.blogspot.com/
Tuesday, March 02, 2004
Buyer's Remorse

It's not a clean sweep -- Dean wins Vermont! -- but it's the end of Edwards. 
And therefore Senator John Kerry will be the 2004 Democratic presidential 
nominee. 

Let the buyer's remorse begin! 
  
 
BUYER'S REMORSE--38,400 Google hits, 5,440 Google Groups hits
  
   "Buyer's remorse" is not in the OED.
  
    
(GOOGLE GROUPS)("buyer's remorse" + "Kerry")
Re: John F-ing Kerry, The MOST Liberal Senator,.,.,.,.,.,., !
... Super Tuesday will tell us if the democrats are feeling a bit of buyer's 
remorse,
in a switch over to Edwards. Let's see..... Kerry, then Dean, back to Kerry 
... 
alt.politics.usa.republican - Feb 27, 2004 by Tarver Engineering - View 
Thread (4 articles)
  
Re: Kerry & National Guard
... six "members attending" a meeting to plan the protest was "John Kerry-NE 
Rep." ===
Kerry should address ... There's already some buyer's remorse among 
Democrats. ... 
alt.fan.dan-quayle - Feb 24, 2004 by Milt - View Thread (5 articles)
  
Is Bush too conservative for America?
... gang is trotting out its scaremongering tactics about whether Kerry is 
too ... and civil
war, President Bush appears to be experiencing buyer's remorse about the ... 
alt.politics.bush - Feb 19, 2004 by Luis ORTEGA - View Thread (6 articles)
  
Re: More bad news for the dubya
... Exit polls in Wisconsin seem to indicate a growing buyer's remorse
with Kerry amongst Democrats, hence Edwards closeing so fast. ... 
talk.politics.misc - Feb 18, 2004 by Spread Eagle - View Thread (37 articles)
  
Re: Dean made me a Democrat, Kerry made me a Republican
... I have talked to a few of my former friends ("former" because they went 
for Kerry
here Michigan to play it safe). They are having buyer's remorse right now. 
... 
alt.politics.democrat - Feb 18, 2004 by Kirk Gregory Czuhai - View Thread (9 
articles)
  
NBC: faux populism by the Democratic elite for the simple-minded
... the Kerry campaign. He's the default option of Democratic voters after 
the amazing
rise and fall of Howard Dean, with the mother of all buyer's remorse coming 
... 
rec.music.artists.springsteen - Feb 6, 2004 by SMBalloon - View Thread (2 
articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)("buyer's remorse")
Re: I know I did the right thing but...
... Help!!!! "Buyer's remorse" is a very common thing when you spend a lot of 
money.
People experience grief whenever a major change happens, even good ones! ... 
alt.recovery - Jun 21, 1991 by Robert Hartman - View Thread (9 articles)
  
Re: Info on Drake rcvrs
... continental USA). They will refund the purchase price if you send it
back to them within 15 days ("buyer's remorse"). The brochure ... 
rec.radio.swap - May 1, 1991 by Bob Parnass, AJ9S - View Thread (3 articles)
  
Summary (Non/)interlaced monitors - 1231 lines long
... disk with shareware GIF viewers and GIF files, just so his customers will 
have SOME
WAY to use the HIRES modes, and not develop buyer's remorse about spending 
... 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware - Mar 6, 1991 by ff76 at vaxb.acs.unt.edu - View Thread 
(2 articles)
  
I wrongly flamed 47th ST/Nikon Warranty Info
... obiquitous "Nikon USA" white cards. We completed the sale, and I guess
later on, I got a case of buyer's remorse. I read the fine ... 
rec.photo - Jan 2, 1991 by Mark Goldberg - View Thread (1 article)
  
Re: A happy Harley owner. Was: Another happy R100GS owner
... This delayed buyer's remorse is a nice self defense mechanism for someone
who already buys motorcycles as often as most people buy shoes. ... 
rec.motorcycles - May 15, 1990 by Chuck Wessel - View Thread (3 articles)
  
Speaker quest ends
... My wife said they sounded good, lets buy these (a little buyer's remorse 
about
the $6K set in as her emotions sagged). I said no, I hated the humpy bass. 
... 
rec.audio - May 14, 1990 by Kurt Strain - View Thread (7 articles)
  
Re: Boogie Mark I Reissue
... Not that I'm looking to buy another amp after emptying my wallet
on the Boogie, but can you spell "Buyer's Remorse"? -bill leff 
rec.music.makers - Mar 9, 1990 by Bill Leff - View Thread (6 articles
  
)Re: a hamster called Paul
... intimately. I went away kind of depressed, but didn't understand why
I felt that way. It was almost like buyer's remorse. Possibly ... 
rec.music.beatles - Feb 24, 1990 by Richard W. Cook - View Thread (5 
articles)
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Most hits are from 1977--ed.)
Post Crescent - 4/26/1967   
...the period of time they guarantinued, 'BUYER'S REMORSE' and seek a means 
of getting.....Enrollment He tells the prospective buyer that he wants to 
enroll him in a borne.....of Commerce, Area gives this advice to the buyer and the 
film salesman: he said, first.....receive the film at the bargain rate, the 
buyer is given film stamps. The exposed film..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Wednesday, April 26, 1967  628 k      
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FRIENEMIES
  
FRIENEMY--265 Google hits, 19 Google Groups hits (from August 2, 1993)
FRIENEMIES--504 Google hits, 72 Google Groups hits (from November 27, 1998)
FRENEMY--950 Google hits, 26 Google Groups hits (from February 15, 1999)
FRENEMIES--803 Google hits, 87 Google Groups hits (from February 23, 1999)

    
   From the Word Spy of March 3:
       
http://www.wordspy.com/words/frienemy.asp
Notes:
This just-so blend of friend and enemy was coined by singer/songwriter Gregg 
Alexander of New Radicals and first appeared in his 1998 song, "You Get What 
You Give," a catchy tune if there ever was one (see the first use, below). The 
rap group Arsonists also used the word (as Frienemies) as the title of a song 
on their album As the World Burns, released August 24, 1999, and the word also 
made an appearance on the HBO show Sex and the City. Thanks to Rima McKinzey 
for bringing this word to my attention.  
(...)
First Use:
Wake up kids
We've got the dreamers disease
Age 14 we got you down on your knees
So polite, you're busy still saying please
Frienemies, who when you're down ain't your friend
Every night we smash their Mercedes-Benz.
?Gregg Alexander, "You Get What You Give," New Radicals: Maybe You've Been 
Brainwashed Too, October 20, 1998 


   Yes, I'd posted this here on ADS-L three years earlier, on 6 April 2001!  
I was recently looking for "frienemy," but I wrote it then as "frienemies."
   Both "frienemy" and "frenemy" should be searched and cited.
        
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nevada State Journal - 5/19/1953    
...hope to Howz about calling the Russians our FRIENEMIES? The Communists who 
refuse to.....brings a fancy price in the out of print book marts. Yours, Bob 
Downing." Blind..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, May 19, 1953  739 k       
    
Mansfield News Journal - 3/13/1960  
...has one man made so basketball tourney FRIENEMIES in so short a time." Ml 
lie Sport..
Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, March 13, 1960  765 k       


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Mar  4 13:00:08 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:00:08 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

From:    "Peter A. McGraw" 



: Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had
: heard "upstate" only in connection with NY.  So there's always a
: first time, but I've never heard the term used in connection with any
: western state, and I assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the
: Mississippi...

Possibly a northeastern usage, at that.

I'm from Maryland, where there *is* no north (people hail from the Eastern
Shore, Western Maryland, Southern Maryland, or Central Maryland, with the
latter sometimes subdivided into the DC Area and Central Maryland).

I don't recall ever hearing an upstate/downstate contrast in West Virginia,
which clearly has a sliver pointing north.

Florida has North Florida and South Florida, with the Panhandle and Central
Florida filling out the rest of the state's geography.

South Carolina, IIRC, has an Upcountry/Lowcountry distinction, but that
seems to be elevation rather than north/south (which it is, but it's even
more east/west).



I've also never heard Upstate/Downstate used for any of the Intermountain
West states.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Mar  4 13:32:30 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:32:30 -0500
Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card
In-Reply-To: <59635B43.6C4DEAA8.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

> An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today.

You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS
person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an
ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out...

Thanks for the great hits. If I had more time, I'd be working full-time
on antedatings, too. But, alas, the rest of the book begs for more
attention...

Grant


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Thu Mar  4 13:24:13 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:24:13 +0000
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Someone reported that there's no 'upstate/downstate' discussion in the
archives, but I've checked and there is...the trick is to search in the
'old archives' (1992-1999) rather than the new archives (at the top of the
archives page).

Cheers,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar  4 14:02:41 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:02:41 -0500
Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card
In-Reply-To: <628F94E9-6DE0-11D8-81EA-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:32:30AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
> >An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today.
>
> You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS
> person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an
> ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out...

Yes. Of course, a _real_ OED person would have realized that
_play the X card_ is already in OED, with a first quote from
1886.

:-)

Jesse Sheidlower
echt-OED


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Mar  4 15:12:30 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:12:30 -0500
Subject: Deer in the headlights (1986, 1988); Play the "X" card
In-Reply-To: <20040304140241.GA4620@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 4, 2004, at 09:02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:32:30AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
>>> An OED person asked about "play the __ card" today.
>>
>> You should know better than that. I'm either an OUP person or an HDAS
>> person; I am not a part of the OED team. Maybe you could say I am an
>> ODAPS person. See how many people figure that out...
>
> Yes. Of course, a _real_ OED person would have realized that
> _play the X card_ is already in OED, with a first quote from
> 1886.

Well, I was trying to avoid playing the lexicographical telephone game
by quoting a source quoted in a source quoted in a source.

Grant


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar  4 15:40:36 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:40:36 -0500
Subject: "pro-life" changed to "anti-abortion", erroneously
Message-ID: 

Aficionados of "political correctness gone amok" stories take note:
A music critic for the L.A. Times is steamed that a story he wrote
containing "pro-life" (not in an abortion context) was changed to
"anti-abortion".

 http://www.laobserved.com/archive/001504.html

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Thu Mar  4 16:22:36 2004
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:22:36 -0600
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english
 languagestillin              usage
Message-ID: 

 Sorry.  I'm confused.  Are you all arguing about the oldest word that hasn't undergone any change or
"evolution"?  Carved in a cave?  Written alone in a document?  Can we really assume the OED as our principal
source for information on language change and the processes involved in it?  Its benefits are obvious, but I
would think in discussions such as this one, we ought to go back to the full text(s).

 Herb Stahlke wrote:

> Not just rural areas.  The Chicago City Council is made up of alderman, and they have aldermanic elections.
>
> Herb
>
> We still have "aldermen" in some of our rural communities.
>
> sally donlon
>
> Joshua Nimocks wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
> > clan.'
> >
> > -Joshua Nimocks
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Vida J Morkunas wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > > Poster:       Vida J Morkunas 
> > > Subject:      Re: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
> > >               in              usage
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Hi Joshua,
> > >
> > > Alder = a tree of the genus Alnus; related to the birch
> > >
> > > Vida.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> > > Joshua Nimocks
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:56 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
> > > usage
> > >
> > > Last May Allan, Metcalf sent out an email regarding WGN-TV news of
> > > Chicago's claim that town is the oldest word in the English language.
> > >
> > > Well, 'town' (601) does appear to tie 'priest' and 'yield' for the OED
> > > headwords, with the oldest citations, that are still in common usage.
> > >
> > > These three are beaten by chiule (550) and alder (600), which appear to
> > > have fallen out of usage in the 19th and 14th centuries, respectively.
> > >
> > > In case anyone wanted to know,
> > > Joshua Nimocks
> > >


From willie at HIS.COM  Thu Mar  4 16:26:27 2004
From: willie at HIS.COM (Willie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:26:27 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <200403031846.i23Ikv018405@mail.his.com>
Message-ID: 

And I can tell you with MORE conviction than Alice that New Paltz is
WAAAY upstate. I grew up on Long Island, so everything north of
Westchester is somewhere out there.

Willie Schatz
Professional Writing Program
University of Maryland

------------------------------------

Duane Campbell said:
>With New Paltz in the news, New York based broadcasters keep referring
to
>this "upstate town." Having lived for several years in New York's
>Southerntier -- which is north of "upstate" -- I can tell you with
>conviction that New Paltz is downstate.

And I can tell you with equal conviction that New Paltz is most
definitely upstate. Of course, I grew up in Westchester County. But
my parents lived in Columbia County for 30 years, which, even if it's
south of Albany, is still upstate to me.

--
 =======================================================================
======
Alice Faber
faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203)
865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203)
865-8963


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 17:03:29 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:03:29 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"Yankee"=20and=20"D?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ixie"=20dialects?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/3/04 11:50:41 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote:
> >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs,
> based
> >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if
> not
> >totally scientific:
> >
> >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
> >
> >Orin Hargraves
> >(49% yankee)
>
> I'm skeptical.
> Larry Horn
> ("54% dixie"--
> grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin,
> and New England)
>

I think they are totally wrong about SACK and BAG. I grew up in Iowa as a
SACK guy, and was surprised that in North Carolina the folks were all BAG people.


From vole at NETW.COM  Thu Mar  4 17:48:04 2004
From: vole at NETW.COM (Joel Shaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:48:04 -0800
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <200403031631312.SM02600@psmtp.com>
Message-ID: 

Having lived next door to the Idaho panhandle for most of my life, I
would say that the only terms I've ever heard used to differentiate
were "The Panhandle" and "Northern" vs. "Southern" Idaho.  The
beginning of the panhandle is generally the cutoff point.

I've found there to be a similar dispute amongst Washington natives as
regards the eastern/western boundary.  Most people from the Cascades
west (Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia, etc.) refer to everything east of the
mountains as "Eastern Washington."  However, many people in the
far-east of Eastern Washington (Spokane, etc.) consider there to be a
Central Washington which includes Yakima, Tri Cities, etc.  People from
Central Washington seem generally to agree that they are from Eastern
Washington, though I've found a few who described themselves as
Central.  Interestingly (and in accordance with my personal feelings),
there is a Western Washington University in Bellingham, a Central
Washington University in Ellensburg, and an Eastern Washington
University in Cheney.

Joel Shaver


On Mar 3, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Peter A. McGraw" 
> Subject:      Re: Upstate/downstate
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I searched the archives for "upstate" in the subject line and found
> only
> today's discussion.
>
> Until I heard about Chicago and upstate/downstate Illinois, I had heard
> "upstate" only in connection with NY.  So there's always a first time,
> but
> I've never heard the term used in connection with any western state,
> and I
> assume it's an eastern usage--i.e., east of the Mississippi.  To my
> knowledge California's great divide is between Northern CA and
> Southern CA.
> To judge by NY and IL, the "upstate/downstate" opposition seems to
> involve
> a given state's single dominant metropolitan area and the rest of the
> state.  Since California has one major metropolitan area for each of
> its
> two halves, it seems unlikely that there would be a suitable context
> for
> "upstate" or "downstate."
>
> I don't know enough about Idaho to say whether the terms are or or not
> used, but the only word I've ever heard for any specific part of the
> state
> is "the panhandle" (i.e., the narrow part that barely keeps Washington
> and
> Montana from bumping into each other).
>
> Peter Mc.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 17:58:31 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:58:31 EST
Subject: Val-girl [sic] "like"
Message-ID: 

Well, "teenaged girls" and "Val-girls" are not the same thing by any means. 
But the accuracy of labelling the supposedly "new" (which of course they are 
not) uses of "like" as "Val-girl 'like'" is not really the important problem 
here. 

The article that she refers to (which she sent in an attached file that set 
off a virus warning) "explains" (albeit somewhat jocularly) that the author 
fined her children and then "started hitting" them for using "like" in ways that 
she did not approve of--and then sanctioned them hitting themselves (and each 
other, and their own children in the future)--as punishment for their use of 
this linguistic form. 

How and wny she chooses to discipline her children behind closed doors--so 
long as she doesn't break any laws--is her own business. But when she goes 
public with her behavior--and engages the subject of the language--that is another 
story. Her article says:

"We have started hitting the kids when they use 'like' in any of its 
misbegotten forms: a replacement for 'say', a replacement for 'as', an unnecessary 
interjection that seems to promise a metaphor but instead reveals a stunted 
education and an effete imagination."

This is not an "explanation," it is simply an assertion of unexplained 
prejudices.

Fitzpatrick has a right to her prejudices. She even has the right, 
apparently, to "smack" her children if their linguistic behavior does not meet with her 
approval. We have a right, though, to contest the arrogant and ignorant value 
judgments that she has sent to ADS-L. 

There is no basis--other than her own "stunted education and effete 
imagination"--for making such "chronically aghast" pronouncements. At worst, linguistic 
change is just that, change--and nothing more. In this case, however, all 
three of the uses of "like" that she sees as a sign of "assault by barbarians" 
seem to have perfectly sound linguistic reasons for having emerged in English. 

If she would listen to her children, rather than hitting them, she might 
learn something.



In a message dated 3/3/04 4:57:08 PM, grendel.jjf at verizon.net writes:


> 
> Yeah, but teenaged girls have like raised to like a higher modality. Curbing 
> it is like indeed my matter, and I y'know sorta explain it in the like 
> article that was sooo cited in my post.
> 
>  ?
> 
>  I like sooo remain, sir,
> 
>  Yr like obt svt,
> 
>  ?
> 
>  Se?n Fitzpatrick
> 
> 


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar  4 17:50:46 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:50:46 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_"Yankee"_and_"D_ixie"_?=
 dialects
In-Reply-To: <1de.19ed1754.2d78bb61@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/3/04 11:50:41 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>
> > At 7:56 AM -0500 3/3/04, Orin Hargraves wrote:
> > >Here's a link to a quiz that purports to tell you where yours belongs,
> > based
> > >on the "Harvard Computer Society Dialect Survey." Pretty good fun, even if
> > not
> > >totally scientific:
> > >
> > >http://www.chuckchamblee.com/dom/fun/yankee_dixie_quiz.htm
> > >
> > >Orin Hargraves
> > >(49% yankee)
> >
> > I'm skeptical.
> > Larry Horn
> > ("54% dixie"--
> > grew up in NYC, lived on Long Island and in California, Wisconsin,
> > and New England)
> >
>
>I think they are totally wrong about SACK and BAG. I grew up in Iowa as a
>SACK guy, and was surprised that in North Carolina the folks were all BAG
>people.

They (whoever they are) are obviously not taking into account migration
from North to South (or Sunbelt).  So today there may indeed be lots of
'bag' people in NC, even though older residents would have used
'sack'.  And Iowa is split, as I recall, but 'sack' usage would hardly
qualify Iowans as Dixie-ites (note that I avoided Dixiecrats).  Even in
bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school.  Who answered
the original Harvard survey anyway--mobile university types like us?


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Mar  4 18:34:25 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:34:25 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <200403031747.i23HlHgV026241@mxu5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets it apart from
the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of being
aggrieved.

The accent I think is also why I think of the use of phat, and why I felt
from the first time I heard "wrong" that it was a faddish use doomed to die.

Benjamin Barrett

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Gwyn Alcock
>
>I picked up "wrong" from co-workers in Northern California
>about six years ago.
>
>Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final
>word in the
>sentence: "This is _wrong_."
>
>It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done,
>something or a situation that's rotten (literally or
>figuratively), offensive, or unjust. Usage can range from
>jesting or teasing to quite serious.
>
>Gwyn Alcock
>Redlands, California
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society
>[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett
>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:16 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Wrong and Holla
>
>This quarter, a student has used wrong and holla in interesting ways.
>
>He uses wrong as a predicate to mean unfair. "This is wrong,"
>he proclaims, meaning the way a paper was graded was wrong.
>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Mar  4 18:49:28 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:49:28 -0800
Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>>
At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school.

Don't you mean 'beg' ?

Fritz Juengling


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 18:45:35 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:45:35 EST
Subject: Wrong and Holla
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/4/04 1:35:11 PM, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes:


> I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets it apart from
> the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of being
> aggrieved.
>

I don't think that "accent" is an issue at all. I didn't check the OED to see
how old this usage is, but ordinary dictionaries (e.g., AH4) have the meaning
'unfair; unjust' (as #3 in AH4) and 'immoral' (as #2 ion AH4). And the usage
is all over the place on the intenet, e.g.,


 When a religious person does a thing that he recognizes as being wrong and
immoral, his illusion of a "Higher Power" and a "Greater Morality" allows them
to perform some ritual, confession, or prayer, and presto, miraculously, "all
their sins are taken away", and they are free again from all pains of
conscience and regret. Such foolish illusions do not comfort the Atheist mind. The
Atheist knows there is no morality above right and wrong, and no escape from the
pains of conscience and remorse.

(Note also the use of 'them' to refer to a singular subject.)

Indeed, as a noun, it seems to me that the primary meaning of WRONG is
'injustice'.

It seems to me that it is context, not intonation and stress, that clarify
"This is WRONG!" refers to a mistake, an injustice, or an immoral action.


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Mar  4 18:52:33 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:52:33 -0800
Subject: Wrong and Holla
In-Reply-To: <200403041846.i24Ik9fw005969@mxu1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

This use seems definitely different to me. As a native speaker of English,
I'm certainly aware that wrong can mean unjust, etc., but this is different.
The intonation is similar to "That is phat!"

Beyond that, I don't know if I can explain it, but there is definitely a
difference from the uses of the "this is wrong" I've always heard in the
past.

Benjamin Barrett

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM
>
>In a message dated 3/4/04 1:35:11 PM, bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes:
>
>
>> I think that accent must be the identifying marker that sets
>it apart
>> from the more normal use Larry Horn cites. It includes a sense of
>> being aggrieved.
>>
>
>I don't think that "accent" is an issue at all. I didn't check
>the OED to see how old this usage is, but ordinary
>dictionaries (e.g., AH4) have the meaning 'unfair; unjust' (as
>#3 in AH4) and 'immoral' (as #2 ion AH4). And the usage is all
>over the place on the intenet, e.g.,
>
>
> When a religious person does a thing that he recognizes as
>being wrong and immoral, his illusion of a "Higher Power" and
>a "Greater Morality" allows them to perform some ritual,
>confession, or prayer, and presto, miraculously, "all their
>sins are taken away", and they are free again from all pains
>of conscience and regret. Such foolish illusions do not
>comfort the Atheist mind. The Atheist knows there is no
>morality above right and wrong, and no escape from the pains
>of conscience and remorse.
>
>(Note also the use of 'them' to refer to a singular subject.)
>
>Indeed, as a noun, it seems to me that the primary meaning of
>WRONG is 'injustice'.
>
>It seems to me that it is context, not intonation and stress,
>that clarify "This is WRONG!" refers to a mistake, an
>injustice, or an immoral action.
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar  4 19:06:29 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:06:29 -0500
Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Not in my day!  Has the Northern Cities Shift now reached Minneapolis?

At 10:49 AM 3/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>>
>At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school.
>
>Don't you mean 'beg' ?
>
>Fritz Juengling


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Mar  4 20:10:19 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:10:19 EST
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to
consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in
California.  There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other
Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of
the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State.  Hence neither
region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate."

An interesting piece of nomenclature:  Absecon Island is a long, thin,
north-south barrier island.  From north to south Absecon Island is divided into
Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport.  The southern portion of the
island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach".  There does not seem to be a
corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City.

I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines
in World War II, and found something interesting.  The decypherment was done at
Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London.  Yet apparently someone
in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?

One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?

     - James A. Landau


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Mar  4 20:55:24 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:55:24 -0800
Subject: "Yankee" and "D ixie" dialects
Message-ID: 

Well, I'm not sure if this is really part of the NCVS (but the answer to your question is 'yes' it has), but EVERY kid pledges allegiance to the [fle:g] and most people put there vittles in a [be:g].  Outlanders notice this Minnesotaism right away.  I say that I am not sure if it is part of the NCVS because many people say 'beg' but have no other characteristics of the NCVS.  Also, 'beg' is found in Idaho and even among some little 'taters of Idaho immigrants here in Oregon.  I think [baeg] is rather uncharateristic of Twin City speech at least.
Fritz Juengling

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 11:06AM >>>
Not in my day!  Has the Northern Cities Shift now reached Minneapolis?

At 10:49 AM 3/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/04/04 09:50AM >>>
>At 12:03 PM 3/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Even in bag-dominant Minnesota we brought 'sack lunches' to school.
>
>Don't you mean 'beg' ?
>
>Fritz Juengling


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Mar  4 22:47:31 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:47:31 -0500
Subject: Wrong [and Holla]
In-Reply-To: <200403040502.i2452Pvq027700@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Rima saith:

        >>>
I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many
science fiction fans.  A human is making love to an alien, another
human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."
        <<<

Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999. The expression appears in Lois McMaster
Bujold's sf novel _Cetaganda_, which is copyright 1995. At a display of
genetic art, one character (Ivan) sees a tree bearing flowers, with live
kittens in the blossoms, and exclaims "That's just *wrong*!" I quote
approximately, from memory, but it is definitely a form of this
expression.

The Sage Hen notes:

        >>>
Then there's the Flanders & Swann song, "Eating People is Wrong!"

(Donald sings)
I won't eat people....
I won't eat people....
Eating people is wrong.

A. Murie
        <<<

Different (imho). That's a plain adjective, predicated of a gerund
phrase, not the novel locution Gwyn Alcock describes as:

        >>>
Usually the stress of the sentence will be on wrong, the final word in
the sentence: "This is _wrong_."

It can refer to something ill-formed or incorrectly done, something or a
situation that's rotten (literally or figuratively), offensive, or
unjust. Usage can range from jesting or teasing to quite serious.
        <<<

-- though it may be an example of the kind of use of the adjective that
developed to the idiom.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Mar  4 22:54:47 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:54:47 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still in
 usage -- NOT!
In-Reply-To: <200403040502.i2452Pvq027700@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Joshua Nimocks clarifies:

#I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
#clan.'

I'm sorry, I don't think that's still in usage.

OED OnLine (diacritics dropped for email):

        >>>
Obs.

    1. Parent, ancestor, elder (chiefly in pl.). [In this sense only in
OE.; superseded by the compar. of the adj. ald (eald), eldran: see
ELDER.]

    2. The head of a family or clan; a patriarch, chief, prince, or
ruler. (Used to translate L. titles, as senior, princeps, dominus, dux.)
        <<<

The latest citation is "c1340". And "alderman" is as opaque as "woman".
Obs., indeed.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM  Fri Mar  5 00:44:50 2004
From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:44:50 -0700
Subject: Wrong [and Holla]
In-Reply-To: <200403041548253.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: 

Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> Rima saith:

> I wonder about the line in "Galaxy Quest," which stuck with many
> science fiction fans.  A human is making love to an alien, another
> human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."

>
> Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999.

The line in Galaxy Quest is: "Ooh, that's not right."
--
Steve Clason
Boulder, Colorado, USA


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Fri Mar  5 01:26:22 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:26:22 -0600
Subject: "Street Sweeper"
Message-ID: 

See
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~antenna/t2k/saul/weapons/nato/shotguns/street.htm -
"Street Sweeper" was originally a brand/model name for a shotgun made by the
South African corporation, ARMSCOR, and was essentially a twelve shot
revolver chambered for shotgun ammunition..
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: 
--------------------------------------------
STREET SWEEPER

   From the NEW YORK SUN, 2 March 2004, letters, pg. 9, col. 4:

   With regard to Errol Louis's column on cab-driver safety, there has not
been a rash of livery muggings ("The Outer-Borough Taxi Crisis," Opinion,
February 17, 2004).
   The incidents that Mr. Louis described were all perpetrated against
drivers who were doing street hails, or as we refer to them, "street
sweepers."  The
drivers who strictly adhere to the law and perform only radio-dispatched
calls are never the target of these incidents.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Mar  5 01:40:11 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:40:11 -0600
Subject: "poutine" (Quebec food),
 or how George Bush believed he was endorsed by Canadian Prime
 Minister Jean Poutine
Message-ID: 

    A while back there were a few ads-l messages about the Quebec food
"poutine."
Here now is a relevant Wall Street Journal article (March 2, 2000,
sec.B, p. 1);
  title: "George W. Ambushed By Canadian Comic In New Name Gaffe", by
Julian Beltrame:
       "The name of a world leader has gotten George W. Bush into trouble again.
        "After a rally in Canton, Mich., last week, a man posing as a
Canadian television reporter told Mr. Bush that Canadian Prime
Minister Jean Poutine had endorsed him as 'the man to lead the free
world into the 21st century.'
        "Mr. Bush beamed. 'I'm honored,' he said. "I appreciate his
strong statement.  He understands our belief in free trade,' the
aspiring president added. 'He understands I want to ensure our
relationship with our most important neighbor to the north us us,
Canadians, is strong.  We will work closely together.'
        "Unfortunately for Mr. Bush, Canada's prime minister is Jean
Chretien, not Poutine.  Poutine is a French-Canadian concoction of
french fries and cheese curds smothered in gravy that is much beloved
in Quebec.
        "The man posing as a journalist was Canadian comedian Rick
Mercer, whose segment on a satirical weekly TV show often lampoons
American ignorance of Canadian matters.  He once had the governor of
Arkansas congratulate Canada on building a 'national igloo' to
protect its Parliament building.  The show broadcast Mr. Bush's reply
earlier this week.  'We got him hook, line and sinker,' said producer
Geoff D'Eon. ..."

Gerald Cohen


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Fri Mar  5 02:14:44 2004
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:14:44 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

Another use of down that has always struck me as uniquely local is Maine's "down east", NE in direction but downstream by ocean current.

Herb

        New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to
        consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in
        California.  There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other
        Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of
        the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State.  Hence neither
        region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate."

        An interesting piece of nomenclature:  Absecon Island is a long, thin,
        north-south barrier island.  From north to south Absecon Island is divided into
        Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport.  The southern portion of the
        island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach".  There does not seem to be a
        corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City.

        I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines
        in World War II, and found something interesting.  The decypherment was done at
        Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London.  Yet apparently someone
        in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
        Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?

        One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
        lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
        drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?

             - James A. Landau


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Mar  5 02:33:56 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:33:56 -0800
Subject: Wrong [and Holla]
In-Reply-To: <200403041645.1aZ3sH2Dp3NZFjw0@skylark>
Message-ID: 

>... A human is making love to an alien, another
>  > human sees them and says, "That's just wrong."
>
>>
>>  Galaxy Quest is copyright 1999.
>
>The line in Galaxy Quest is: "Ooh, that's not right."

Oops.  I guess I remembered it wrong.  I'll just have to rent it again...

Rima


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 03:11:45 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:11:45 -0500
Subject: one of the oldest written words in the english language still
 in               usage -- NOT!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 5:54 PM -0500 3/4/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>Joshua Nimocks clarifies:
>
>#I'm sorry.  I should have specified: alder, 'the head of a family or
>#clan.'
>
>I'm sorry, I don't think that's still in usage.

FWIW, in some communities (e.g. New Haven), "alder" is used
(sex-neutrally) for what "alderman" used to be used for.  It doesn't
quite mean "parent, elder" or "patriarch, ruler", but it's clearly
descended from and related to those uses.  (Aldermanic districts are
still so-called; I don't think I've heard "alderic".  I've always
liked the "-manic" part.)

larry horn

>
>OED OnLine (diacritics dropped for email):
>
>         >>>
>Obs.
>
>     1. Parent, ancestor, elder (chiefly in pl.). [In this sense only in
>OE.; superseded by the compar. of the adj. ald (eald), eldran: see
>ELDER.]
>
>     2. The head of a family or clan; a patriarch, chief, prince, or
>ruler. (Used to translate L. titles, as senior, princeps, dominus, dux.)
>         <<<
>
>The latest citation is "c1340". And "alderman" is as opaque as "woman".
>Obs., indeed.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Mar  5 03:37:22 2004
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:37:22 -0600
Subject: Scots and/or Irish American dialect
Message-ID: 

A quick question (actually 2):

I'm proofing some dialogue for a writer who's trying to capture
characters who are Scottish-American and Irish American in the 19th
century.  Most of it seems okay, but I had questions about two things:

Would an Irishman really say "Sure and begorrah" or is that mainly a
stereotypical realization of  Irish American speech?

Would a Scotsman say 'Ach!" (meaning "Ah!")  That sounds more German to
me than Scots.  If not, what would he say instead?

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University.
--

- Things are only impossible until they are not!

Picard to Data, "When the Bough Breaks."


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Mar  5 03:38:39 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:38:39 -0800
Subject: "pro-life" changed to "anti-abortion", erroneously
In-Reply-To: <200403040740.1aYUY065i3NZFkl0@cockatoo>
Message-ID: 

>Aficionados of "political correctness gone amok" stories take note:
>A music critic for the L.A. Times is steamed that a story he wrote
>containing "pro-life" (not in an abortion context) was changed to
>"anti-abortion".

Isn't that exactly what happened at some point with "African-American
is the Color of my True Love's Hair"?  Here's to unexamined global
changes...

Rima


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Mar  5 03:38:54 2004
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:38:54 -0600
Subject: Scots and Irish Dialect part 2
Message-ID: 

Sorry-- got the time period wrong on my first post-- it's 1790-1800.

Thanks.

Patti
--

- Things are only impossible until they are not!

Picard to Data, "When the Bough Breaks."


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Mar  5 03:49:22 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:49:22 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
Message-ID: 

 James A. Landau writes:
>Yet apparently someone
in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?

>One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?<
~~~~~~~~
It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe.
Remember The Oak & the Ash:

A north country lass
Up to London has strayed,
Although with her nature
It did not agree......?

The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out)
of University.
~~~~~~~~
As  for "upstate" in NY, although we are about as far up as you can go,
just a stone's throw from Quebec, we are "NorthCountry" not "upstate."
We speak of the "central tier" or the "southern tier" from here, but I
think "downstate" is usually reserved for NYC or perhaps, sometimes,
Albany.
A Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar  5 03:48:23 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:48:23 -0500
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
Message-ID: 

My subject line says it all.

Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam?

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Mar  5 04:49:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:49:29 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> >Yet apparently someone
>in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
>Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?
>
> >One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
>lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
>drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?<
>~~~~~~~~
>It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe.
>Remember The Oak & the Ash:
>
>A north country lass
>Up to London has strayed,
>Although with her nature
>It did not agree......?
>
>The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out)
>of University.

More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India
for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other
conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please
forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until
it reached some point where its designation would change and it would
become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be
when I researched it a few years ago.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 05:27:56 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:27:56 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040304234328.02f094b0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

At 11:49 PM -0500 3/4/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India
>for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other
>conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please
>forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until
>it reached some point where its designation would change and it would
>become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be
>when I researched it a few years ago.
>
In some U.S. cities (but not New York), including I believe both
Boston and Chicago, the terms are "inbound" and "outbound", e.g. for
subway/metro purposes.  I haven't encountered "upbound", and while
Bruce Springsteen sings about a "downbound train", I'm pretty sure
he's not referring to one that goes out to the suburbs (or the
bridge-and-tunnel lands).

larry horn


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar  5 05:40:14 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:40:14 -0500
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
Message-ID: 

Leaving aside the terminological quibble that it is the vulva's orientation that is in question, not the vagina's, I am not sure I have encountered the idea anywhere but in books.  In any case, I have never gotten the impression it is a slur. 
Se?n Fitzpatrick
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sam Clements 
Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2004 22:48
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina


My subject line says it all.

Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam?

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Mar  5 05:51:57 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:51:57 -0500
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
In-Reply-To: <000501c40264$b5af0d70$b6631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

>Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam?

I don't have any, but to possibly assist in directing a search I'll make a
few remarks.

I can myself vouch for the currency of this myth or "tall tale" pre-1965
(Detroit) (in two variants, horizontal ["crosswise"] and oblique
["slanted"], as I recall). [This mythical description was not regarded as a
slur by the tale-tellers AFAIK.]

Apparently the myth was widely known in Japan (per two Japanese nationals
[not mutually acquainted], who both seemed to find it humorous and
inoffensive BTW) pre-1974.

Here is a passage from a favorite book, a memoir by Charles Willeford,
_Something about a Soldier_ (1986) (p. 176):

<<"What's Jack doing these days?" I asked.
<<"He went to sea. He's a mess boy in the Merchant Marine. He sent me a
postcard from Hong Kong the other day, saying it isn't true."
<<"It isn't true. I just got back from the Philippines myself, and I can
vouch for it. ....">>

The conversation is recalled from Los Angeles, apparently 1938; I *suspect*
that the recollection is close to accurate. There is no preliminary
conversation, and there is no indication in the text -- before or after --
of what it is that "isn't true" ... apparently Willeford thought it was
clear enough ... and indeed I think we can make a pretty good guess.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar  5 06:09:56 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:09:56 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
Message-ID: 

from the march 2004 issue of GENRE, the "advice + consent" column by
john a. vlahides, p. 78 (answer to a letter from a gay guy):

   Discovering that you're gay may initially seem like a curse.  But
hang in there, keep on asking the hard questions, and you may find that
turning out a 'mo is the best thing that ever happened to you.

'mo = homo was new to me.  it's an example (relatively rare, but not
unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable.
anyone have other attestations for 'mo?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 06:32:24 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:32:24 EST
Subject: Chili-mac (1925)
Message-ID: 

(NEW ORLEANS FAIRGROUNDS WEB SITE)
http://www.fgno.com/
"You could get a bowl of chili-macs at the Belfort Inn for a buck and a
quarter," said Joseph E. "Spanky" Broussard, recalling life on the Fair Grounds
backstretch in the mid-1960s. "It was a bowl of macaroni with hot chili on top.
They had bookies in all the joints and you could sit there and bet the Double
for fifty cents."


CHILI-MAC--5,230 Google hits, 794 Google Groups hits
CHILLI-MAC--106 Google hits, 95 Google Groups hits

   "Chili-mac" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK (1999).  The New Orleans Fair Grounds has a Hall of Fame and twelve years
ago I...never mind.
   I don't have the usual NYU databases here at home.  If anyone finds "chili
mac" from the 16th century, I'll buy dinner.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Dixon Evening Telegraph - 1/4/1951
...MACaroni. I was going to write that CHILI-MAC is just CHILI-con sloshed
over MAC but.....says the studio, is not as biased as the book. w Eddie Bracken
has joined Bing Crosby.....boyed him in St. Louis. But easy goS CHILI-MAC is
CHILI con carne sloshed over.....could get a big white bowl of CHILI-con "or
CHILI-MAC for 15 cents. You could live high..
Dixon, Illinois Thursday, January 04, 1951  824 k

Bradford Era - 1/13/1950
...T.llow-Quiek" CAMPBELL'S SOUP VENICE MAID CHILI-MAC PILLSBURY PANCAKE
FLOUR CLOVERDALE.....SUNSWEET PRUNES BROCTON TOMATO PUREE MONROE CHILI SAUCE WHOLE
APRICOTS SALERNO GRAHAM..
Bradford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1950  492 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/29/1939
...FRENCH FRIED Potatoes 'Hunter's CHILI or CHILI MAC tall per tali fet Tall
Cam C. W..
Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, June 29, 1939  476 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 10/20/1939
...Cimpbelli J dins KETCHUP H.iiu Lg. bollle CHILI-MAC Something different f
Ae IT 2 for.....righl out of Betty Crocker's famous Recipe Book I Try we know
you will be pleased with..
Reno, Nevada Friday, October 20, 1939  505 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 12/2/1941
...V-8 COCKTAIL 25' 12 os. cans Mexicorn 2 .or CHILI-MAC SET 3 te Heart oi
OOe Utah, No. 2.....for the National Football league record book but also
practically sewed up his claim.....Steer Beei.. Link Sausage Ib. Mouniroio fm CHILI
con 15e ROYAL Beef Tongues Corned y0..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, December 02, 1941  607 k

Nevada State Journal - 8/9/1939
...California Tamales, Raviolis, Spaghetti or CHILI MAC S-oz. Can Clothes
Pins Spring..
Reno, Nevada Wednesday, August 09, 1939  445 k

Daily Register - 2/16/1946
...Sandwiches Of All Kinds .Mexican CHILI and CHILI MAC GRILL Open Week Days
Til 21 Mrs..
Harrisburg, Illinois Saturday, February 16, 1946  830 k

Hammond Times - 11/7/1937
...3 25 3 for Apple Sauce, Gilbert's. 2's CHILI MAC 2 FLOUI7 KNOX-JELL
Gelatine 4..
Hammond, Indiana Sunday, November 07, 1937  715 k

Daily Northwestern - 7/3/1931
...EVERY SATURDAY That delicious Mexican dish CHILI MAC. Big Dinners Minnows
All Hours..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, July 03, 1931  1033 k

Daily Northwestern - 8/7/1931
...Con Carni lOc, Biggest Regular Dinner 20c. CHILI MAC Free Every Saturday.
PUEPPKE'S, 38.....than Oshkosh is officially listed in the book as having a
population of The book.....20c, Biggest Hamburger Sandwich 5c, CHILI.....will be
registered in an official "guest book." A bulletin board, for all..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, August 07, 1931  1037 k

Sheboygan Press - 6/25/1925
...We will pay in cash to anyone who can make CHILI-MAC than we do. We
Prepare On Short.....sleep the moit fascinating and Interesting book you've ever
read. free. Write today.....record in England. A SMACking Good Chlli-MAC 15c per
bowl Buy a quart for home use at..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Thursday, June 25, 1925  708 k
Pg. ?, cols 7-8 ad:
   A Smacking Good
        _Chili-Mac_
15c oer bowl
Buy a quart for home use at...60c
   We will pay $10 in cash to anyone who can make better Chili-Mac than we
do.
(...)
_De Luxe Restaurant_
512 North Eighth St.    Phone 286-J


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL CHILI MAC
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: Chili food product
consisting f spaghetti, beans meat sauce with spices, and chees
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  020107 020131 110325
Serial Number   74015564
Filing Date January 2, 1990
Current Filing Basis    1B
Original Filing Basis   1B
Owner   (APPLICANT) Frass, Melvin R. DBA Mel Frass Co., Inc. UNKNOWN OHIO
P.O. Box 236 Delaware OHIO 43015
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date    March 14, 1991


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Mar  5 06:36:14 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:36:14 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>'mo = homo was new to me.  it's an example (relatively rare, but not
>unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable.
>anyone have other attestations for 'mo?

HDAS shows this "mo" from 1968 (as a verb also). I heard it around 1968 IIRC.

Can an argument be made that the "mo" in ancestral "homo" has secondary
stress? [I can't picture "mo" < "homasekshul".]

A somewhat comparable case which comes to mind immediately: "groid" <
"Negroid" (in HDAS).

-- Doug Wilson


From nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET  Fri Mar  5 06:44:55 2004
From: nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET (Nathaniel Thomas)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 01:44:55 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <20040305061000.D3F4A3B5BA@frontend2.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: 

In the animated series of "Clerks" (based on the Kevin Smith film) the
end of each episode contains a Public Service Announcement.  I should
note that this was a strange and quickly canceled series because it
attempted to achieve some flavor of the excellent film but was
broadcast on Disney-owned prime-time ABC.  That is difficult when the
source material contained enough swear words to be originally rated
NC-17.

Anyway, in one PSA two children (a brother and sister) are playing
inside on a rainy day.  Unfortunately, I cannot find a script on-line
and do not have the DVD at hand, thus I am forced to attempt to
remember haphazardly what the exact context was.  I think the sister
suggests that they take off their clothes, but the brother says that
playing with matches would be more fun.  They're prevented by the
sudden appearance of one of the characters from the show, who I believe
encourages them to do something even worse.  Anyway, the brother, I
think,  says to the sister, again, this is if I remember correctly,
"You 'mo!".  In the commentary on the DVD the creators of the show
mention that ABC didn't like that insult, because they thought it was a
shortening of "moron".  They convinced ABC it meant something more
innocuous and thought it was pretty funny, because ABC would have been
extremely annoyed if they had known it was actually short for "homo".
Of course, this is all from memory, and there may be a slightly
different back-story but "mo" definitely does make an appearance in
that PSA.

If someone is interested they can check it out, considering only six
episodes were made.

Nathaniel (nathanielt at airpost.net)

On Mar 5, 2004, at 1:09 AM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> 'mo = homo was new to me.  it's an example (relatively rare, but not
> unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable.
> anyone have other attestations for 'mo?
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 07:06:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:06:00 EST
Subject: Micro-Aggression
Message-ID: 

MICRO-AGGRESSION--61 Google hits, 16 Google Groups hits
  
http://andrewsullivan.com/
Friday, March 05, 2004 
"MICRO-AGGRESSION": It's a new term to me, but my conversations with college 
students this past couple of days have convinced me it's real. What's a 
micro-aggression? It's when you offend somebody for the usual p.c. reasons. You need 
not mean to offend someone; you may even be trying to flatter them; but if 
they feel they're offended or hurt in any way, it's a "micro-aggression." An 
accumulation of "micro-aggressions" can lead to actual aggression. I accidentally 
committed a "micro-aggression" two days ago when I used the term 
"Islamo-fascist" to refer to terrorists or unelected despots who use Islam as a cloak for 
their violence or tyranny. One poor young student was reduced to tears because 
I used this term. She said she felt attacked because she is a Muslim. I 
pointed out that the entire point of the term is to distinguish these theocratic 
thugs from genuine, mainstream Muslims. And she acknowledged that. Nevertheless, 
I had committed a micro-aggression. If I were on a campus today, I might be 
subject to discipline. What you have here, perhaps, is a post-modern, 
post-Christian attempt to resurrect different levels of sin. I committed what Catholics 
call a "venial sin," a small-bore, not-too-important, micro-sin. But unlike 
Catholic teaching, which insists that for something to be a sin, it must be 
consciously intended, with "micro-aggressions," your motives are irrelevant. In 
pomo heaven, the individual, after all, has no real autonomy, no independent 
soul, no personal conscience. He's just reflecting the interplay of 
power-structures. So in the pursuit of progress, we have resurrected the imperatives of 
Catholic moral teaching and removed moral responsibility at the same time. They 
call this a step forward. It's the opposite. One recalls Foucault's classic 
book, "Discipline and Punish." It's all that's left of his philosophy on 
American campuses.
- 12:07:10 AM   
   
    
(GOOGLE)
[PDF] TWS Study Guide.Spinning
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting 
our text version of this document.
... In psychiatry, we refer to them as ?micro-aggression,?? he said. ?The
things you experience everyday that then add up and take their toll. ... 
www.theatreworks.org/ images/TWS%20Study%20Guide.Spinning.pdf - Similar pages 

 
The Reason Files
... Stop micro-aggression! -- Micro-aggression is explained on a webpage
of the Colby Echo, with one Megan Wilson telling it like it is -- ... 
www.wsse.ca/nucleus2.0/reason.php?catid=5&blogid=2 - 42k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
Psychiatric Services -- Allen 50 (3): 424
... At least among African Americans, some of Pierce's terms and concepts?
micro-aggression,
micro-traumata, and racism as an environmental pollutant?are abiding ... 
ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/50/3/424 - Similar pages 
 
study guides
... 14. Why would difference between Blacks and Whites appear greater away
from the job? 15. What is a micro insult or micro aggression? 16. ... 
www.instruction.greenriver.edu/kwarner/ AMES100/study%20guides.htm - 36k - 
Cached - Similar pages 


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: LINK:
... We have to think before pillorying and lynching alleged racists. However, 
I have
read Andrew Chin's description of "micro-aggression." Have you? It is great. 
... 
soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 16, 1998 by etaka at fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp - 
View Thread (28 articles)
  
Re: LINK: "AA fight slurs...."
... to be afraid of. The concept of micro-aggression may lead some to see
racist discrimation everywhere. Eric Takabayashi Fukuyama, Japan ... 
soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 15, 1998 by etaka at fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp - 
View Thread (137 articles)
  
Re: Racial differences are minor
... It's telling that you're experience is belittled with theories about 
micro aggression
and mixed up with incidents that may have much less to do with race than ... 
soc.culture.asian.american - Mar 6, 1998 by Check - View Thread (95 articles)
  
DAY JOB(long)
... There is now, in fact, a considerable literature devoted to chronicling 
these acts
of worker micro-aggression.[30] Office supplies are pilfered, hard-drives ... 

rec.music.makers.guitar - Jul 14, 1995 by Richard Kucera - View Thread (2 
articles)
  
Offensive Mechanisms
... my fondest hope that the day is not far remote when every black child 
will recognize
and defend promptly and adequately against every offensive micro-aggression 
... 
soc.culture.african.american - Apr 22, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread 
(1 article)
  
Offensive Mechanisms (corrected P-1)
... Hence, the therapist is obliged to pose the idea that offensive 
mechanisms are
usually a micro-aggression, as opposed to a gross, dramatic, obvious macro 
... 
soc.culture.african.american - Apr 22, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread 
(1 article)
  
Offensive Mechanisms (part one)
... Hence, the therapist is obliged to pose the idea that offensive 
mechanisms are
usuall a micro-aggression, as opposed to a gross, dramatic, obvious macro ... 

soc.culture.african.american - Apr 21, 1993 by Carter E. Bing - View Thread 
(1 article)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar  5 07:13:07 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:13:07 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040305011611.02f145c0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 4, 2004, at 10:36 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> 'mo = homo was new to me.  it's an example (relatively rare, but not
>> unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable.
>> anyone have other attestations for 'mo?
>
> HDAS shows this "mo" from 1968 (as a verb also). I heard it around
> 1968 IIRC.
>
> Can an argument be made that the "mo" in ancestral "homo" has secondary
> stress? [I can't picture "mo" < "homasekshul".]

yes it can.  compare "Como" (as in Perry Como) with "yellow".

> A somewhat comparable case which comes to mind immediately: "groid" <
> "Negroid" (in HDAS).

and lots of others ("droid" < "android", "ret" < "cigarette"), but also
including some with truly unstressed final syllables ("rents" <
"parents").

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Mar  5 08:11:34 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:11:34 -0800
Subject: fansubbing
Message-ID: 

Here's an interesting word a student used in an e-mail about translating
anime (Japanese cartoons).

Funsubbing is the subtitling of anime by a fan not for profit. This person
is called a fansubber. There are ethics and legal issues involved, sketched
at

http://electron.cs.uwindsor.ca/~utomo/fansubbing.html

Benjamin Barrett


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 09:05:14 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:05:14 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <200403050610.i24LllPB016699@anderson.acpub.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

Another possible example of a fairly recent word clipped down to approximately
its unstressed final syllable: 'rents for parents.

Stephen Goranson


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 09:12:58 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 04:12:58 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <200403050905.i2587qBp011943@anderson.acpub.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

Rats! I didn't read all the mail in proper sequence. My apologies....

SG
> Another possible example of a fairly recent word clipped down to
> approximately
> its unstressed final syllable: 'rents for parents.
>
> Stephen Goranson


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 10:00:39 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:00:39 +0000
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Thursday, March 4, 2004 10:49 pm -0500 sagehen 
wrote:

>
>  James A. Landau writes:
>> Yet apparently someone
> in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
> Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?
[sagehen]
> It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe.
> Remember The Oak & the Ash:

What I've learnt here is that it's always 'down to London'.  I live south
of London, and you go down to London from here (over the Downs, as a matter
of fact).  There's more than one song with "down to London town" in it.  In
practice, people say both.

"Down to London" gets 16000 & something hits on Google, while 'up to
London" gets about 1000 fewer.  But some of these are things like "down to
London Bridge Station" or "up to London Road", so hard to tell.

Cheers,
Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 11:13:26 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:13:26 +0000
Subject: up/down to London
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Following up on my last note on this...

The info I had re "it's always 'down to London'" was from native Londoners
who now live in Brighton (50 miles due south of London).

But I just polled my class.  The younger ones said it's up or down
depending on whether you're coming from north or south, respectively.  One
exception was a younger student who said she always says "down to London"
but that this is a habit because she used to live north of London.  (By
'younger' students I mean traditional undergraduate age.)

The one student present who was older (in his 50s) said that it's always
'up to London' because the train lines to London are the 'up lines'.
Here's a little explanation from
:

'Split level Tunnels
The famous twin-bore two level tunnels are somewhere north of Bristol, and
are like two see-saws side by side, the down line enters its tunnel with
the track being at a higher level than the up line and further south it
exits at a lower level than the up line, very strange. Apparently it is a
result of the doubling of the old B & SWU line where a second tunnel was
constructed to suit a new shallower track gradient suitable for the
increased coal traffic from South Wales. In theory all lines towards London
are called up lines and all lines away from London are called down lines. '

Incidentally, 'town' generally means London.  If I say 'I have to be in
town next week', it means I'm going to London.  If I want to talk about
going into Brighton from its outskirts I'd have to say something like "the
town centre".  I assume that this meaning of 'town' is still in use by
people who live within commuting distance of London, but is probably not so
used by those further away.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Mar  5 11:29:38 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:29:38 -0000
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078480839@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

> What I've learnt here is that it's always 'down to London'.  I live
> south of London, and you go down to London from here (over the Downs,
> as a matter of fact).  There's more than one song with "down to London
> town" in it.  In practice, people say both.

Interesting. I was brought up in the area and worked in Brighton for
some years (for the then new local radio station, in the late 1960s).
At that time you always went up to London (or up to town, this always
being taken to mean London).

I'd also agree with Sagehen that in the my day up trains always went
to the nearest big town, which for southest England meant London. Has
one of these odd linguistic inversions taken place in the interim?

The rule doesn't (or didn't) apply to those travelling to London from
much further away, say Manchester or Edinburgh. Then you followed the
map convention and went down to London.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 11:19:39 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:19:39 +0000
Subject: Scots and/or Irish American dialect
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Thursday, March 4, 2004 9:37 pm -0600 Patti Kurtz
 wrote:

> Would a Scotsman say 'Ach!" (meaning "Ah!")  That sounds more German to
> me than Scots.  If not, what would he say instead?

Scots say it all the time.

NODE says:
 dialect (chiefly Scottish) form of ah.
Ach, well, win some lose some.

But there's also _och_:

Scottish and Irish  used to express a range of emotions, typically
surprise, regret, or disbelief
Och, you're kidding.


Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Mar  5 11:44:58 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:44:58 -0000
Subject: up/down to London
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Nor, and this is where class definitely comes in, is it always 'London.' A
browse through middlebrow (and middleclass) popular lit., esp. as written
between the wars by such as Agatha Christie and her bestselling peers,
London is 'Town'. And one invariably goes 'up' to Town. Or 'pops' or 'runs
up to Town'. (Of course, the London = Town equation is much older; at
least 18th century). For London's own East-enders, i.e. the traditional
working class, the West End is traditionally 'up', as in 'I'm off up
West', meaning to Piccadilly Circus, Soho, or environs.

Jonathon Green


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Fri Mar  5 12:22:41 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:22:41 -0600
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
Message-ID: 

It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:48 PM
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina


> My subject line says it all.
>
> Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam?
>
> Sam Clements
>


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 13:28:35 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:28:35 +0000
Subject: up/down to London
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Friday, March 5, 2004 11:44 am +0000 Jonathon Green
 wrote:
>
> Nor, and this is where class definitely comes in, is it always 'London.' A
> browse through middlebrow (and middleclass) popular lit., esp. as written
> between the wars by such as Agatha Christie and her bestselling peers,
> London is 'Town'. And one invariably goes 'up' to Town. Or 'pops' or 'runs
> up to Town'. (Of course, the London = Town equation is much older; at
> least 18th century). For London's own East-enders, i.e. the traditional
> working class, the West End is traditionally 'up', as in 'I'm off up
> West', meaning to Piccadilly Circus, Soho, or environs.


Aha.  So I'm now having the suspicion that my earlier claim that it's
always "down to London" may have been my mistaking a conversation about
"town" for one about London".  Perhaps it's usually "up to London" but
"down to town".

There are 1180 "down to town"s versus 563 "up to town"s on google.co.uk
(searching only UK sites), but it's clear that not all those towns are
London.

There are only 39 "down to London town", mostly lyrics.

Now, another Londoner who's moved to Brighton has just been in my office
and insisted it's "down to London" from every direction.

So make of this what you will!

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 14:51:01 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:51:01 EST
Subject: origin of "muggle"
Message-ID: 

from an interview with Joanne "J. K." Rowling, on the Web at URL
     http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml


I was looking for a word that suggested both foolishness and loveability. The
word 'mug' came to mind, for somebody gullible, and then I softened it. I
think 'muggle' sounds quite cuddly. I didn't know that the word 'muggle' had been
used as drug slang at that point... ah well.



     - Jim Landau


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Mar  5 15:24:59 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:24:59 -0500
Subject: Up/down to London
Message-ID: 

Lynne Murphy writes:
"The one student present who was older (in his 50s) said that it's always
'up to London' because the train lines to London are the 'up lines'."
~~~~~~~
Age may account for my impression, since I haven't been back to England for
over thirty years.
A. Murie


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 15:10:48 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:10:48 +0000
Subject: origin of "muggle"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Friday, March 5, 2004 9:51 am -0500 "James A. Landau"
 wrote:
> from an interview with Joanne "J. K." Rowling, on the Web at URL
>      http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml
>
> 
> I was looking for a word that suggested both foolishness and loveability.
> The word 'mug' came to mind, for somebody gullible, and then I softened
> it. I think 'muggle' sounds quite cuddly. I didn't know that the word
> 'muggle' had been used as drug slang at that point... ah well.
> 

I've seen American fan sites that have insisted that 'muggle' is British
slang for 'loser'.  Just found a case of this at:
, which says:
"Rowling's books use British slang extensively, and "muggle" has meant
"complete loser" since the 19th century."

This point has been made, apparently, to protect Rowling against a claim of
plagiarism (and has hence been repeated on fan sites).  But I've never
heard any such thing in the UK, it's not in Partridge's (except as a
marijuana term, muggles) and OED, which has four entries for _muggle_ has
none that mean 'loser' (or anything like it) and Rowling's 'non-magical'
sense (given there as _Muggle_) is attributed first to Rowling.

So, how (if indeed it did) that story held up in court I don't know.  I've
seen the muggle=loser claim many times (always from Americans), but never
seen any citations backing it up.

Lynne




Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Fri Mar  5 15:22:34 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:22:34 -0500
Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate)
Message-ID: 

On the topic of 'up' and 'down' in directions, various people have posted:

> >Yet apparently someone
>in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
>Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?
>
> >One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
>lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
>drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?<
>~~~~~~~~
>It's always "up" to London, wherever you are in Gt Britain, I believe.
>Remember The Oak & the Ash:
>
>A north country lass
>Up to London has strayed,
>Although with her nature
>It did not agree......?
>
>The Rev Spooner's missing student might be being "sent down" (kicked out)
>of University.

More generally, "up" is generally "toward the big city". Trains in India
for example are routinely referred to in this way (although there are other
conventions, and exceptions): so a train from Bombay to Madras (please
forgive my conservative toponymy) would be a down train (from Bombay) until
it reached some point where its designation would change and it would
become an up train (to Madras). At least that's the way it seemed to be
when I researched it a few years ago.

-- Doug Wilson

RAILWAYS

I can confirm that it's always 'up' to London and 'down' away from London.  As
in India, that's actually official usage on the railways (at least, it was when
we had one national railway system, but I imagine the practice has percolated
to the local companies that we have now, since privatisation).  Also as in
India, there are conventions as to how to refer to trains that don't begin or
end their journeys in London;  I believe it's simply to do with which terminus
is in a bigger place, or more railway-significant, so cross-country trains
probably go 'up' to Birmingham, for example;  but that bit's just speculation.

UNIVERSITIES

On the other point, it's true that Rev Spooner's missing student had probably
been 'sent down', ie kicked out of the University, but, as far as I'm aware,
the use of 'sending down' for being kicked out and of 'going up' for 'going to
the University for the first time' or 'going back after a period of absence' is
current only in Oxford and Cambridge.  (You also 'go down' at the end of term.)
 As in going 'up' to London, you can 'go up' to Oxbridge no matter where you
were to start with, and you're always sent 'down', no matter where you're
going.

Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford;  I think it would probably be
thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than Oxbridge to
use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say 'expel' and 'go to
University'.  Could someone at another British University comment?  Also,
interestingly, New College itself asserts that Spooner 'almost certainly never
uttered a Spoonerism, but equally certainly had a number of curious verbal
traits': http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 15:15:05 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:15:05 +0000
Subject: origin of muggle
Message-ID: 

Following up on my last post (as I often do, as I hit 'send' too soon),

'mug' is documented as meaning 'loser' in UK English--but that should be
different from 'muggle' in a plagiarism case, I'd think.


Incidentally, is it now the case on ADS-L that one does not receive one's
own posts to the list?  I keep waiting for mine to be posted, but then
realise they must've been when I start reading replies to them.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 15:40:11 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:40:11 EST
Subject: note concerning Asshole buddies:speculative etymology
Message-ID: 

A quick Google check for , , 
, and  turned up many interesting hits (e.g., " 'Les chiens qui 
ont la queue coup?e n'ont pas peur de faire voir leur cul.' --Proverbe 
Savoyarde. Envoyer a un ami?"), but nothing remotely related to "asshole buddies." 
One might therefore conclude that the English expression is not semantically 
extremely natural.


In a message dated 2/8/04 2:59:53 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


Well, that wasn't my point. Since "buddy" comes from Brit. dial.
"butty," and since its connection to "butt" has been claimed, I was
just speculating that the connection between "asshole" and "buddy"
might not be so far off (anatomically speaking, that is).

dInIs


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Mar  5 15:49:38 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:49:38 -0000
Subject: origin of "muggle"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>
> I've seen American fan sites that have insisted that 'muggle' is British
> slang for 'loser'.  Just found a case of this at:
> , which says:
> "Rowling's books use British slang extensively, and "muggle" has meant
> "complete loser" since the 19th century."
> [...]
> But I've never heard any such thing in the UK

Me neither. Muggle is not now, definitely, and never has been, to my
knowledge,  a term for 'loser' in UK slang. One must assume that those who
make this claim, for whatever reason, are confusing it with 'mug', which
has meant a dupe or fool, usually from a criminal's viewpoint, from at
least 1821 (when it appears in Jon Bee's _Real Life in London_). The first
appearance of 'muggle' or more usually 'muggles' in the slang lexicon is,
as Lynne Murphy suggests, in the context of marijuana (a Louis Armstrong
title of 1928; it was slightly preceded by 'mugglehead', a marijuana
smoker, listed in 1926), and as such was never in any case a very
widespread UK term. Rowling can be presumed to be honest when she claims
never to have encountered it.

Jonathon Green


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 16:11:24 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:11:24 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/5/04 1:10:15 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> from the march 2004 issue of GENRE, the "advice + consent" column by
> john a. vlahides, p. 78 (answer to a letter from a gay guy):
> 
> ?? Discovering that you're gay may initially seem like a curse.? But
> hang in there, keep on asking the hard questions, and you may find that
> turning out a 'mo is the best thing that ever happened to you.
> 
> 'mo = homo was new to me.? it's an example (relatively rare, but not
> unattested) of a word clipped down to its unstressed final syllable.
> anyone have other attestations for 'mo?
> 
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
> 

It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused 
with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there 
is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Mar  5 16:13:39 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:13:39 -0500
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
Message-ID: 

I recall a passage from a book by H. Allen Smith, I assume one of his earliest -- Life in a Putty Knife Factory (1943) or Low Man on a Totem-Pole (1944) or Lost in the Horse Latitudes (1944).  (Seems to me there was another, from '41 or 42, but I forget the title.)  Smith had been a NYC newspaperman in the '30s, specializing in celebrities and eccentrics.  He tells a story of attending a press conference with a famous Chinese-American actress, presumably Anna May Wong, in the course of which she answers an unasked question by saying "No, it isn't".  I don't recall haw he alludes to the unspoken antecedent of "it".

I own a couple of his books, incl. Low Man but not Horse Latitudes, and can check them this weekend.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: paulzjoh 
Date: Friday, March 5, 2004 7:22 am
Subject: Re: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina

> It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Clements" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:48 PM
> Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
>
>
> > My subject line says it all.
> >
> > Any early cites for this American? piece of flotsam?
> >
> > Sam Clements
> >
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 16:23:46 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:23:46 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20origin=20of=20slur-?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-horizontal=20Oriental=20vagina?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/5/04 7:19:41 AM, paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM writes:


> It was told to me, as gospel, in the late 40's
>

Me too--well, not "told to me as gospel," but it was alluded to by family
members who had served in the navy in the eastern Pacific in World War II, mostly
in joking contexts.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Fri Mar  5 16:29:23 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:29:23 +0000
Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Friday, March 5, 2004 10:22 am -0500 Damien Hall
 wrote:

> UNIVERSITIES
>
> Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford;  I think it would probably be
> thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than
> Oxbridge to use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say
> 'expel' and 'go to University'.  Could someone at another British
> University comment?  Also, interestingly, New College itself asserts that
> Spooner 'almost certainly never uttered a Spoonerism, but equally
> certainly had a number of curious verbal traits':
> http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html


I can confirm that send down and go/come up are limited to Oxbridge.  (Just
asked a couple of colleagues to confirm).

Lynne




Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 18:01:42 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:01:42 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20chopped=20liver--consciou?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?sness-raising=20is=20in=20order?=
Message-ID: 

I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to chopped 
liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm not one 
of them), and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does 
it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver.

So I guess there may be reasons why people would think of chopped liver as 
relatively inconsequential, especially as compared to the importance and 
sensitivity of a human being. But the degree of respect is surely in the mind of the 
speaker.

I also say, "What am I, a potted plant?" And I love potted plants.

In a message dated 2/9/04 9:17:57 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:


> At 8:02 PM -0500 2/9/04, Sam Clements wrote:
> >Sheesh!? Can't Barry get ANY respect around here?? What is he, chopped
> liver?! ...
> 
> ? ? I've never understood the derogatory reference to chopped liver in
> the phrase (with slight variants) "What am I, chopped liver?"? Well
> prepared chopped liver is always tasty, and very well prepared
> chopped liver is delicious, a culinary delight.
> 
> ? ? Why this lack of respect for chopped liver?
> 
> Gerald Cohen
> 


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Mar  5 18:24:34 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:24:34 -0500
Subject: origin of slur--horizontal Oriental vagina
In-Reply-To: <16d957316d93d5.16d93d516d9573@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

>I recall a passage from a book by H. Allen Smith, I assume one of his
>earliest -- Life in a Putty Knife Factory (1943) or Low Man on a
>Totem-Pole (1944) or Lost in the Horse Latitudes (1944).  (Seems to me
>there was another, from '41 or 42, but I forget the title.)  Smith had
>been a NYC newspaperman in the '30s, specializing in celebrities and
>eccentrics.  He tells a story of attending a press conference with a
>famous Chinese-American actress, presumably Anna May Wong, in the course
>of which she answers an unasked question by saying "No, it isn't".  I
>don't recall haw he alludes to the unspoken antecedent of "it".
>
>I own a couple of his books, incl. Low Man but not Horse Latitudes, and
>can check them this weekend.
>
>GAT
 ~~~~~~~
Wasn't /Sex Life of the Date Palm/ also one of H. Allen Smith's?
A. Murie


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Fri Mar  5 18:17:12 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:17:12 -0500
Subject: note concerning Asshole buddies:speculative etymology
Message-ID: 

>A quick Google check for , , e>
>, and  turned up many interesting hits (e.g., " 'Les chiens qui=
>=20
>ont la queue coup=E9e n'ont pas peur de faire voir leur cul.' --Proverbe=20
>Savoyarde. Envoyer a un ami?"), but nothing remotely related to "asshole bud=
>dies."=20
>One might therefore conclude that the English expression is not semantically=
>=20
>extremely natural.

If one may be given the indulgence to free-associate (since it's Friday
afternoon): this reminds me of the Moroccan Arabic proverb, "zb l-maarifa
ke-wesaa l-kur" which might be politely translated as "you can only screw your
friends" and literally (using some circumspect rather than the vulgar words in
the original) as "it's the penis of someone familiar that stretches out the
rectum."

Orin Hargraves


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar  5 18:25:21 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:25:21 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_chopped_liver--consciousness-rais?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ing_is_in_order?=
In-Reply-To: <191.2603d55c.2d7a1a86@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 5, 2004, at 10:01 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to
> chopped
> liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm
> not one
> of them)...

nor am i.

> , and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does
> it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver.
>
> So I guess there may be reasons why people would think of chopped
> liver as
> relatively inconsequential, especially as compared to the importance
> and
> sensitivity of a human being...

my reading of this formula has always been that chopped liver is
inferior to the really good stuff, namely foie gras.  i have absolutely
no evidence that the everyday/elegant comparison is the actual source
of the formula, however.

we all know that interpretations of somewhat opaque formulas can be
idiosyncratic and quite distant from historical sources.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar  5 18:34:14 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:34:14 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20chopped=20liver--consciousness-rais=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ing=20is=20in=20order?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/5/04 1:25:55 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> my reading of this formula has always been that chopped liver is
> inferior to the really good stuff, namely foie gras.? i have absolutely
> no evidence that the everyday/elegant comparison is the actual source
> of the formula, however.
> 
> we all know that interpretations of somewhat opaque formulas can be
> idiosyncratic and quite distant from historical sources.
> 

Don't they come from two quite different culinary traditions? I don't think 
of foie gras as something I'd get in a Jewish deli, nor do I think of chopped 
liver as especially French (would not expect to find FOIE HACHE? on the menu of 
a French restaurant). So for me, Arnold's "idiosyncratic" response would 
never have emerged.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 19:53:29 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:53:29 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <11b.2ee5ae76.2d7a00ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:11 AM -0500 3/5/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>  >
>
>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused
>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there
>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.

I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days.  If I
didn't know better, I'd think I was getting older.  (I didn't check
him on (ho)mo, which however really does put a new spin on
sportscasters' references to "the big mo.")

larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 20:23:34 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:23:34 -0500
Subject: chopped liver--consciou               sness-raising is in
 order
In-Reply-To: <191.2603d55c.2d7a1a86@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:01 PM -0500 3/5/04, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>I've never thought of this as a derogatory reference with respect to chopped
>liver per se. Of course, lots of people don't LIKE chopped liver (I'm not one
>of them), and I have to admit that chopped liver is not very pretty, nor does
>it smell like perfume. And we all remember what Portnoy did with liver.

not with *chopped* liver, however.  that would have made for a very
different textural and textual experience for young Alex.

larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar  5 20:32:46 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:32:46 -0500
Subject: Up and down, railways and Oxbridge (was: Upstate/downstate)
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078504163@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

>--On Friday, March 5, 2004 10:22 am -0500 Damien Hall
> wrote:
>
>>UNIVERSITIES
>>
>>Rev Spooner was Dean of New College, Oxford;  I think it would probably be
>>thought of as snobbery in many, if not all, Universities other than
>>Oxbridge to use 'send down' and 'go up', and that they would just say
>>'expel' and 'go to University'.  Could someone at another British
>>University comment?  Also, interestingly, New College itself asserts that
>>Spooner 'almost certainly never uttered a Spoonerism, but equally
>>certainly had a number of curious verbal traits':
>>http://corelli.new.ox.ac.uk/college/briefhistory.html
>
>

If that's true, where did his reputation for doing so--strong enough
for him to serve as the eponym for the practice--originate, I wonder?
Did someone ELSE accuse his students of having tasted the whole worm,
or go around talking reverently about the queer old dean?

larry horn


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar  6 01:05:10 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:05:10 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Wellerism"
In-Reply-To: <16d957316d93d5.16d93d516d9573@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wellerism (OED 1839)

[1838 _New-York Mirror_ 28 July 38 (American Periodical Series)  (heading)
Sam Wellerisms.]

1838 _Poughkeepsie Casket_ 20 Oct. 111 (American Periodical Series)
(heading) Wellerisms.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar  6 01:13:55 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:13:55 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
> slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
> generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
> students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
> father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days...

in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent.  but my experience of 'za
goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently.

jespersen says that clipping preserves the first, the last, or the
main-stressed syllable (that is, a syllable in one of the three most
perceptually salient positions).  i think he also says that it
especially favors a first or last syllable with stress.  i'm not sure
if he explicitly says that  suffixes with (secondary) stress, like
english -ate and -ize, don't count.

the actual restrictions and disfavorings are pretty complex, as larry
could undoubtedly explain to us in some detail.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Mar  6 02:00:07 2004
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:00:07 -0600
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Got that wrong.  It's downwind, not downstream.

Herb


Another use of down that has always struck me as uniquely local is Maine's "down east", NE in direction but downstream by ocean current.

Herb

        New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California, it is considered to
        consist of "North Jersey" and "South Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in
        California.  There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other
        Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban, neither of which dominate the rest of
        the Garden State the way New York City does the Empire State.  Hence neither
        region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate."

        An interesting piece of nomenclature:  Absecon Island is a long, thin,
        north-south barrier island.  From north to south Absecon Island is divided into
        Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport.  The southern portion of the
        island, or at least Margate, is called "Downbeach".  There does not seem to be a
        corresponding "Upbeach" in Atlantic City.

        I was recently reading about the decypherment of the German Enigma machines
        in World War II, and found something interesting.  The decypherment was done at
        Bletchley Park, which I believe is north of London.  Yet apparently someone
        in Bletchley would think of going "up" to London and "down" to return to
        Bletchley.  Can one of our British correspondents check this out, please?

        One of Reverend Spooner's famous sayings was "You have hissed my mystery
        lectures.  You have tasted an entire worm.  You will leave on the next town
        drain."  What is a "down train"?  Is there a corresponding "up train"?

             - James A. Landau


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Mar  6 02:45:48 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:45:48 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20chopped=20liver--co?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nsciou=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=A0=20sness-?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?raising=20is=20in=20order?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/5/04 3:24:01 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> not with *chopped* liver, however.? that would have made for a very
> different textural and textual experience for young Alex.
> 

maybe not for a teenager -- chopped, raw, pureed -- does it really make a 
difference?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar  6 03:19:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:19:52 EST
Subject: "Drunken Sailors" and the economy (1898)
Message-ID: 

_Borrowing Like Drunken Sailors_
--editorial, NEW YORK POST, 5 March 2004, pg. 30, col. 1.
      
  
DRUNKEN SAILORS--8,850 Google hits, 4,560 Google Groups hits
DRUNKEN SAILOR--40,800 Google hits, 9,460 Google Groups hits
DRUNKEN SAILOR + PRESIDENT + BUSH--4,710 Google hits, 471 Google Groups hits
DRUNKEN SAILORS + PRESIDENT + BUSH--2,120 Google hits, 369 Google Groups hits
    
  
   Why am I seeing all these economic comparisons to drunken sailors lately?
   People don't spend like "Paris Hilton," buying $5,000 handbags.  No, they 
spend like "drunken sailors."  Do drunken sailors really spend that much?  
What do they buy--another cheap beer?  $20 or so?  Maybe some grub?  How much 
does grub go for?
   For weeks now, blogger Andrew Sullivan has accused President Bush of 
spending like a drunken sailor.  There are many Google "sailor spending" hits.
   I don't know if NYU's Literature Online is working again.  I'd check Early 
English Books Online and Eighteenth Century Collections Online.  Drunken 
sailors go way back.
    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2003/02/04/budget/index_np.html
Drunken sailor economics
Bush's bloated budget will likely put the U.S. over $1 trillion in debt. But 
criticize it, and the White House calls you soft on terror.- - - - - - - - - - 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Jake Tapper Feb. 4, 2003
    
CNN.com - McCain: Congress spending money 'like a drunken sailor' ...
John McCain Sunday berated fellow lawmakers for spending money like a drunken 
sailor
and said President Bush was also to blame for pushing the nation toward ... 
www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/ 11/30/mccain.bashes.bush.ap/ - 41k - Mar 4, 
2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
   
Congress Spending Money Like 'Drunken Sailor'
... WASHINGTON ? Congress is throwing away astonishing amounts, "spending 
money like
a drunken sailor," and President Bush shares the blame because he is not ... 
www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ 2003/11/30/184005.shtml - 29k - Cached - 
Similar pages My Way News
... WASHINGTON (AP) - Congress is throwing away astonishing amounts, 
"spending money
like a drunken sailor," and President Bush shares the blame because he is not 
... 
apnews.myway.com/article/20031130/D7V56CGG0.html - 14k - Cached - Similar 
pages 


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
(Search for "like a drunken sailor" and "like drunken sailors")
Clearfield Progress - 6/22/1944     
...thAt our RepresentAtives spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor, however. for 
out of even A.....thus distributed. InevitAbly it will drop LIKE A plummet when 
wAr production is cut oft.....DRUNKEN sAilor would hAng on to one of those 
zeroes..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 22, 1944  775 k     
    
Clearfield Progress - 5/20/1939     
...thAt our RepresentAtives spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor, for out of 
even A DRUNKEN.....yeArs in the NAvy Are relAted in A book both frAnk And rich in 
Anecdote, "SeA.....FROM PAGE 1) ing until June 1. ThAt seems LIKE u long time 
to All of them. AlreAdy they.....RussiA bAck in the eAstern provinces. LIKE 
GermAny, she hAs plAnned her dominAtion..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 20, 1939  690 k      
    
Helena Independent - 11/5/1940  
...An AdministrAtion thAt spends money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. District .A
ttorney ThomAs E..
Helena, Montana Tuesday, November 05, 1940  695 k       
    
Bismarck Tribune - 11/5/1940    
...An AdministrAtion thAt spends money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor." Mrs. ForAn chA
rged cruelty.....PR WIN NEW JAmes A. PArley sAid "it looks LIKE A DemocrAtic 
vie President Roosevelt's.....Are cAlcite iften foundin cAves. PinnAcle-LIKE mA
sses projecting upwArd from the floor.....All he sAid, .the White House A mAn, 
who, LIKE Winston Churchill, cAn put into words..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Tuesday, November 05, 1940  842 k      
    
Gettysburg Times - 11/5/1940    
...thAt Tspends moriey LIKE" A DRUNKEN sAilor." Willkie Votes i ijWendell 
L.....bAck is HArold HAmberg, who hAs everything LIKE All good hAmburgers. NeAr A
nd fAr Only.....the TulsA university footbAllers, who look LIKE the goods. Tod
Ay's ffuesl stAr JAck.....We hAve in the White House A mAn., who, LIKE Winston 
Churchill, cAn put into words..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 05, 1940  884 k      
      
Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/1/1937   
...I disLIKE. "Thus I will spend money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor on my home, for 
I love it.....of my methods ol economy. When I trAvel I LIKE to trAvel on the 
best ships, stop At de.....for. I'll be extrAvAgAnt About the things I LIKE, A
lmost miserly About those.....oltllmes on things I'll never reAlly use. I LIKE 
the things I cAn buy in A stAtionery..
Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, September 01, 1937  856 k     
    
Marion Daily Star - 7/21/1886   
...of A womAn. She rAved And swore LIKE, A DRUNKEN sAilor. And WhAt did I 
think? My.....01 A vAnished heArt's desire. ThAi once LIKE A beAutiful pAlAce 
itood to defy the.....eyes of impenetrAble blue, cheeks Ad lips LIKE roses, And A 
weAlth of golden rAglets.....more success thAn when his portly, fArmer-LIKE 
form wAs seen shAdowing the rooms of the..
Marion, Ohio Wednesday, July 21, 1886  1252 k       
    
Reno Evening Gazette - 5/21/1914    
...of the Government, is spending money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor until its wA
steful.....of An income eAch yeAr. Towns sprung t'ip LIKE mushrooms on the prA
iries And people..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, May 21, 1914  940 k      
    
Washington Post - 11/27/1910    
...sAid Mr. Selden wAs spending money LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. But Mr. Selden's 
fAith in his.....when his toes Are .trAmpled ho bristles LIKE An old wArrior, 
And with him It's wAr to..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Sunday, November 27, 1910  1084 k  
  
Evening News - 11/26/1912   
...which mAkes the stAte j spend money LIKE A. DRUNKEN sAilor I does his 
shore And if his j.....wil insist thAt Of being exchAnglory text-book used in the 
public i Ally if you woiil.....of clothing on the innrket. do whore you LIKE; 
you'll never soo bettor clothes thAn.....Co. ARTHTU l.EKSKR i. H. Korr, Rep. 
text book Adoption thAt is required by lAw is..
Ada, Oklahoma Tuesday, November 26, 1912  465 k     

New Oxford Item - 7/1/1898  
...trAining. Such fAmiliAr phrAses As "LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor" And "Spending 
monej LIKE A.....young AmericAns, who hAve displAced A LIKE number of 
irresponsible foreigners.....is more of A mechAnic And A soldier thAn A sAilor pure And 
simple. But this is not All.....just At food As the Ivory they ARE NOT, but 
LIKE All counterfeits, lAck the peculiAr And..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, July 01, 1898  580 k       
  
Stevens Point Daily Journal - 7/25/1899     
...once And generAlly spending money j LIKE A DRUNKEN sAilor. ficflin JournAl 
HArry DAvis.....the lAst (lAv And no one should miss n. c A DRUNKEN SAilor. 
The council of Stevens Point..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 25, 1899  711 k      
  
    
(WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE)
"Who builds his hope in air of your fair looks,
Lives like a drunken sailor on a mast."
_Richard III_.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar  6 03:31:19 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:31:19 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <899F6972-6F0B-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent.  but my experience of 'za
>goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently.

I've heard "'za" since ca. 1966, "'rents" never (in real-life use).

"Parents" > "'rents" seems odd, and it may well be that the actual
evolution was "parental units" > "'rental units" (and/or "parentals") >
"'rents" or so. Jonathon Green's dictionary entry suggests something like
this. [Another conceivable origin with stress would be "in loco parentis",
which expression was bandied about some during student unrest in the 1960's.]

"'Za" remains as ostensibly reflecting a really really unstressed syllable.
Are there any other good clear examples like this?

I think it might be arguable that "'za" doesn't really reflect any spoken
syllable, but rather is taken directly from the orthography. The stressed
version of the last syllable of "pizza" would be /sa/ or maybe /tsa/, I
would think. "'Za" is always /za/ AFAIK ... or are there other pronunciations?

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Mar  6 03:46:12 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:46:12 -0500
Subject: "Drunken Sailors" and the economy (1898)
Message-ID: 

Still bugged about that 400- year antedating, eh?

SC

From: 

(WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE)
"Who builds his hope in air of your fair looks,
Lives like a drunken sailor on a mast."
_Richard III_.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar  6 03:49:19 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:49:19 EST
Subject: Light turns green, car behind you honks (1948, 1950)
Message-ID: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07ONLANGUAGE.html
Attaboy, Attosecond!
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
Published: March 7, 2004
Do you have a minute?'' That's what we used to say when the person we were
accosting was in a rush. That notion of a very short time was reduced, not long
ago, by the split second, which was defined by New York Traffic Commissioner
T.T. Wiley in 1950 as ''the time between the light turning green and the guy
behind you honking.''


   T. T. Wiley didn't coin this in 1950.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Independent Record - 1/6/1948
...interval it lakes, after tne traffic LIGHT TURNS GREEN, for some damn fool
behma you to.....lets her defenses down is better than born HONKING, Norman
Vincent 'and becom6S Involved.....might Of a new generation, the children: of
LIGHT. Madison Square Garden in aganda, but a.....Japan was forced into war.
-Composer Johnny GREEN will tree education. It is either, make..
Helena, Montana Tuesday, January 06, 1948  639 k
Pg. 4, col. 1:
   It is said that the smallest measurable unit of time is the interval it
takes, after the traffic light turns green, for some damn fool behind you to
honk his horn.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar  6 04:23:10 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:23:10 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040305203708.02f0a840@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>>in my experience, 'rents is fairly recent.  but my experience of 'za
>>goes back to the late 50s, when my college roommate used it frequently.
>
>I've heard "'za" since ca. 1966, "'rents" never (in real-life use).
>
>"Parents" > "'rents" seems odd, and it may well be that the actual
>evolution was "parental units" > "'rental units" (and/or "parentals") >
>"'rents" or so. Jonathon Green's dictionary entry suggests something like
>this. [Another conceivable origin with stress would be "in loco parentis",
>which expression was bandied about some during student unrest in the 1960's.]
>
>"'Za" remains as ostensibly reflecting a really really unstressed syllable.
>Are there any other good clear examples like this?
>
>I think it might be arguable that "'za" doesn't really reflect any spoken
>syllable, but rather is taken directly from the orthography. The stressed
>version of the last syllable of "pizza" would be /sa/ or maybe /tsa/, I
>would think. "'Za" is always /za/ AFAIK ... or are there other pronunciations?
>
I tend to agree, although I'm just speculating here.  Some other
partially unstressed remnants I've been thinking about are those used
for sports team hypocoristics, but they represent secondarily
stressed rather than truly unstressed cases:  the 'Lanche (for the
Colorado Avalanche hockey team, a.k.a. the Avs), the 'Canes (for the
Hurricanes), the 'Noles (for the Seminoles), etc.  There's also the
Wolves (for the Minnesota Timberwolves, a.k.a. T-Wolves), but that's
a bit different, since it's really a compound reducing to its head,
and "wolves" is definitely stressed to begin with, albeit
secondarily; cf. the 'Boys and the 'Skins, from Dallas and DC
respectively.   I can't think of bisyllabic team names with initial
stress where the second syllable is retained, once we eliminate
compounds and modifier-head constructions (e.g. "the Sox"); what
doesn't occur is e.g. the 'Kees of NY, the 'Kers of L.A.--even though
the latter is a nice reanalysis in the making.

larry horn


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Mar  6 04:28:38 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:28:38 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>I tend to agree, although I'm just speculating here.  Some other
>partially unstressed remnants I've been thinking about are those used
>for sports team hypocoristics, but they represent secondarily
>stressed rather than truly unstressed cases:  the 'Lanche (for the
>Colorado Avalanche hockey team, a.k.a. the Avs), the 'Canes (for the
>Hurricanes), the 'Noles (for the Seminoles), etc.  There's also the
>Wolves (for the Minnesota Timberwolves, a.k.a. T-Wolves), but that's
>a bit different, since it's really a compound reducing to its head,
>and "wolves" is definitely stressed to begin with, albeit
>secondarily; cf. the 'Boys and the 'Skins, from Dallas and DC
>respectively.   I can't think of bisyllabic team names with initial
>stress where the second syllable is retained, once we eliminate
>compounds and modifier-head constructions (e.g. "the Sox"); what
>doesn't occur is e.g. the 'Kees of NY, the 'Kers of L.A.--even though
>the latter is a nice reanalysis in the making.

I'm not sure what actual pronunciation underlies the shortening of
Coyotes to 'Yotes, but that somehow fits at least with 'Lanche and
'Canes.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Mar  6 06:20:14 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:20:14 -0600
Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo)
Message-ID: 

At 3/5/2004 02:53 PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
>slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
>generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
>students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
>father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days.

 From my undergraduate days:
'za
'rents
'ner = dinner
'tail = cocktail
'hue = Goodhue (dormitory)
and while not as common as "libe"
'bary = library

All with the stressed syllable clipped.

These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed
to freshmen (in 1966 anyway).  Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at
least 20 mimeographed pages.  Many of the usages had died out by the time I
got there, (I recall "hum" = all-purpose, often euphemistic, verb.  "They
were out there humming on the lawn."  "Let's hum a za."  Beautiful, but not
used in my time.) but I can swear that the above were all in active use
1966-1970.

   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Mar  6 06:43:09 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:43:09 -0600
Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo)
In-Reply-To: <20040306062323.2176653EA@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

Good heavens! I found it on-line:
http://www.corneli.us/CarletonClassof69/memorabilia/loosely.pdf
Beware.  It takes up 4MB.

At 3/6/2004 12:20 AM -0600, Tom Kysilko wrote:
>  These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed
>to freshmen (in 1966 anyway).  Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at
>least 20 mimeographed pages.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Sat Mar  6 07:17:30 2004
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:17:30 +1000
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652lgA002644@mailhub2.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Re Arnold Zwicky's call for examples of 'mo (clip to final unstressed
syllable): I don't have this one, but I do have quite a few more in
my data of Australian clippings:
        cockroach > roach (more US; usually cockie in Aus)
        Jumpinpin > The Pin (a place in Queensland)
        Wollongong > The Gong (a city)
        mushrom > shroom
        Quaalude > lude
        Wallerawang Power station > Wang
        Footscray > Scray (suburb of Melbourne)
        chrysanthemum > mum (more US: Aus = chrissie)
        Mandrax > trax / trex

also
        omnibus > bus


Roly  Sussex


--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar  6 07:40:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:40:51 EST
Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha
Message-ID: 

FOOD OT:  MARTHA
  
   I couldn't believe it.  All for a coverup of a minor stock trade.
   TWENTY YEARS IN JAIL?  Was Martha Stewart a threat to attack people on the 
street with muffin recipes?
    She couldn't pay a large fine and do community service--some cooking or 
cleaning?
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"MULE KICKING" CHILI
  
www.theonion.com
Texan Feels Emotionally Empty After Chili Cook-off
EL PASO, TX?Native Texan and chili chef Jerry Gerber, 41, said he has been 
suffering a palpable sense of melancholy ever since the 17th Annual Five-Alarm 
Chili Cook-Off on Feb. 28 ended. "Spend all year gittin' together the hottest, 
rootin'-tootinest, mule-kickinest chili this side of the Rio Grande, and 
whadya git fer yer troubles?" Gerber said Tuesday. "Shucks, you eat it and then 
you're all hat and no horse." In lieu of seeking professional help, Gerber said 
he plans to force himself back into the saddle by beginning work on his entry 
for the Texas Beef Council Steak-A-Thon in June.
   
  
   "Mule-kicking" chili?
   We often "add kick" to a dish or a drink, making it hotter or stronger.  
But a mule kick?  I took a look at "mule kick" in relation to "chili."  There 
are a few hits, but not too many.
     
  
(GOOGLE)
INFERNO - Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from ...
... has a distinct sweet pepper taste with an after burn that 'kicks like a 
mule'!. ... CHERRY
BOMB] [ETHIOPIAN THUNDER] [FRENCH WAX] [FRESNO CHILI] [GOLDEN HABANERO ... 
www.chillifarm.com/chilli_pepper_seeds/INFERNO.asp - 13k - Cached - Similar 
pages 

Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from seeds> 
> ... FRESNO CHILI The Fresno Chilli is a Jalapeno style chilli that reaches 
maturity ... has
a distinct sweet pepper taste with an after burn that 'kicks like a mule'!. 
... 
www.chillifarm.com/chilli_store/seeds.asp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Better Homes & Gardens: A root to taste.(horseradish)(includes ...
... Feder. It may be called horseradish, but it has a kick like a mule.
Used for ... it becomes. CHILI-RUBBED CHICKEN WITH HORSERADISH. The ... 
www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1041/ n4_v74/18114199/p1/article.jhtml - 13k - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
GOLDEN HABANERO - Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants ...
The Great Chilli Farm - buy chili seeds, hot peppers, many chilli recipes, 
read about
growing chillies, chile ... It has a fruity flavour with a kick like a mule. 
... 
www.chillifarm.com/chilli_pepper_seeds/ GOLDEN_HABANERO.asp - 13k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
 
Chilli Pepper Seeds - grow your own chili plants from seeds> 
> ... FRESNO CHILI The Fresno Chilli is a Jalapeno style chilli that reaches 
> maturity in
> approximately 89 days after ... It has a fruity flavour with a kick like a 
> mule. ... 
> www.chillifarm.com/chilli_store/seeds.asp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages 
   
Sorley Splatting -Danny Baker's Internet Treehouse Message Board ...
... Message Jack Chili by any chance? IP: Logged. ... EKU40'? Forty percent 
proof
and a kick like a mule being elbowed in the knackersack by Roy Keane? ... 
www.mj0110199.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ Forum1/r-t/008008.html - 39k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
 
eye - Drinks - 07.16.98
... Jack Daniels Tennessee Sour Mash ($23.75) has a sweet corn flavor and a 
kick like
a mule. ... or milk, pour over ice cream or add to enhance a bowl of chili. 
... 
www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_07.16.98/plus/drinks.html - 31k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
    
Tahiti Joe's Hot Sauce - Pepper Sauce, Salsa and Hot Sauces made ...
... SO SAVE YOUR CHILE ASS AND DOWN A BOTTLE OF BUTT PLUG ... champ of the 
teriyaki world
because it can kick your ass ... FUEL THE MULE HOT SAUCE In the desert, you 
can't ... 
www.tahitijoeshotsauces.com/wildcatalog.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
PDF] Garlic Reduces Cancer Cells Meet Captain Joe...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting 
our text version of this document.
... special flavor, smoky sweet but with a West Texas mule's kick. ... 
Totally Chile Pepper
Cookbook..... 4.95 50 chili flavored recipes ... 
www.4garlic.com/newsltrs/gp_07.pdf - Similar pages 
  
'Orphans Wanted' The Pony Express
... but he hadn't. It was some of that 'mule kick' whiskey that ... 
www.worldandilibrary.com/public/ 2004/january/mtpub2.asp - 41k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
  
A Bajan Occasion
... classy and for a moment I worried about my garish chile pepper tie ... 
pleasant taste
fool you," warns Anne Marie, "it carries the kick of a mule!" She continues 
... 
www.fiery-foods.com/dave/bajan.asp - 45k - Cached - Similar pages 


  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Women celebrate Festival of Brigit
... This is vodka brewed from chili peppers ... as it must sound (it's quite 
nice actually,
straight shots from a bottle kept in the freezer), but it kicks like a mule. 
... 
alt.tasteless - Jan 21, 1998 by Nathan J Nagel - View Thread (30 articles)
    
Re: A poll of no interest unless you want to participate
... That hottest of all chilis, that looks sweet and dainty but kicks like a 
mule?
habanera chili = yummy ***** Pete Dumont. ... 
novell.community.chat - Jan 29, 2001 by Felton Green \(SysOp\) - View Thread 
(245 articles)


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Sat Mar  6 15:16:22 2004
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:16:22 -0500
Subject: Remorse
Message-ID: 

Just now on MSNBC, Rosiland Jordan, an NBC White House reporter, said that Pres. Bush expressed remorse at the mosque bombings in Iraq.  Has the meaning of "remorse" been changing, or did she just slip?  One only expresses remorse of one's own acts that one regrets.  She wasn't saying that Bush was claiming responsibility for the bombings, and I would have expected a noun like "sorrow".  "Compassion" or "pity" is an archaic sense.  Is it coming back or was this just odd?

Herb


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Sat Mar  6 15:37:13 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:37:13 -0600
Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha
In-Reply-To: <20040306074102.KOTI26459.sccmgwc02.mchsi.com@sccmgwc02.asp.att.net>
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:41 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Mule Kicking" Chili; Martha

> "Mule-kicking" chili?
> We often "add kick" to a dish or a drink, making it hotter or stronger.
> But a mule kick?  I took a look at "mule kick" in relation to "chili."
There
> are a few hits, but not too many.

Isn't the author simply euphemizing "ass-kicking" ?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.610 / Virus Database: 390 - Release Date: 3/3/2004


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar  6 15:38:04 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:38:04 -0500
Subject: fansubbing
In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

My son is an enthusiastic anime fan, and I've known about fansubbing for
years. I used the nominal, meaning 'a fansubbed anime', in a song in
June of 1999 (http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filks/Fanboy.html).

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar  6 15:46:19 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:46:19 -0500
Subject: getting your own postings
In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Lynne asks:

        >>>
Incidentally, is it now the case on ADS-L that one does not receive
one's own posts to the list?  I keep waiting for mine to be posted, but
then realise they must've been when I start reading replies to them.
        <<<

>From the email address of your subscription, send a message to the
listserver (LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU) saying

  SET ADS-L REPRO

I extracted this info from the reference card that comes when you
subscribe to the list:

SET listname options                  Alter your subscription options:
    REPro/NOREPro                     -> Copy of your own postings?

You can get the reference card with the message:

  LISTSERV REFCARD

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar  6 15:48:15 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:48:15 -0500
Subject: origin of "muggle"
In-Reply-To: <200403060502.i2652kvq019588@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Lynne asks straight-faced:

        >>>
So, how (if indeed it did) that story held up in court I don't know.
I've seen the muggle=loser claim many times (always from Americans), but
never seen any citations backing it up.
        <<<

Presumably because the courts didn't know how to judge linguistic
evidence and either didn't think to ask or didn't think they needed to.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar  6 16:14:46 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:14:46 -0500
Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20040306003211.01b2b4b0@pop.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

>Good heavens! I found it on-line:
>http://www.corneli.us/CarletonClassof69/memorabilia/loosely.pdf
>Beware.  It takes up 4MB.
>
>At 3/6/2004 12:20 AM -0600, Tom Kysilko wrote:
>>  These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed
>>to freshmen (in 1966 anyway).  Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at
>>least 20 mimeographed pages.

That's very interesting! Probably half of those items were current at
Michigan when I was there (about the same time), and a few I haven't heard
since then.

Surely I don't remember ever hearing any of those odd apheretic ones except
for "za".

"Ner" = "dinner"? "Nis" = "tennis"? "Dry" = "laundry"? "Fee" = "coffee"?
"Gly" = "ugly"? "Ries" = "memories" [really hard to believe]?

How would one pronounce "bage" (meaning "cribbage"), please? "Baidge" or
"bidge" or "budge" or "badge"?

Apparently the unfamiliarity of most of these ones is not restricted to my
admittedly ignorant self. Were they local? Ephemeral? Is "za" (along with
"rents" maybe) an isolated survivor of a whole once-thriving phylum? Or
were most of these modeled on "za", perhaps? These seem so unnatural to me
that I suppose that their invention was a sort of conscious word-game like
Pig Latin or backslang ... but how widespread was the game? And how
long-lasting? I have to admit that "[chrysanthe]mum" is pretty weird too,
now that I think about it: still I can invoke (at least imagine!) a variant
pronunciation with clear last-syllable secondary stress, while I can't make
such an excuse for "ten[nis]".

BTW: "mung" (= "crud") is the ancestor of the modern computer-jargon
"mung", I'm sure: this I've heard continuously since the 1960's. "Mung-pie"
(based on "Moon Pie"?) I don't recall, though.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Mar  6 16:15:29 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:15:29 -0800
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> New Jersey is a north-south state yet, like California,
> it is considered to consist of "North Jersey" and "South
> Jersey", perhaps for the same reason as in California.
> There are two major metropolitan areas, Camden/other
> Philadelphia suburban, and New York City suburban,
> neither of which dominate the rest of the Garden State
> the way New York City does the Empire State.  Hence neither
> region can call itself "downstate" and the rest "upstate."

No "downstate/upstate," but there is the phrase "down the shore," used by those in North Jersey to refer to the coastal regions of the south.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar  6 18:15:30 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:15:30 -0800
Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo)
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040306093652.02f126b0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 6, 2004, at 8:14 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote, about an
assortment of amazing undergraduate front-clippings:

> ...These seem so unnatural to me
> that I suppose that their invention was a sort of conscious word-game
> like
> Pig Latin or backslang ... but how widespread was the game? And how
> long-lasting?...

the playful character of these clippings seems pretty clear.  in fact,
their *ostentatiously* playful character; they're meant to stand out,
to be noticed.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), a long-time fan of language play


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Sat Mar  6 16:24:58 2004
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:24:58 -0500
Subject: 1909 World Series Lingo
Message-ID: 

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful (and witty) suggestions. As always, I
appreciate your expertise!

Sincerely,

David

----- Original Message -----

> >For a classroom script that I'm preparing, I'm interested in finding some
> >authentic cheers and other baseball lingo from 1909 (specifically the
World
> >Series) that I might be able to use. (For example, were there specific
> >cheers used by Tigers fans? Pirates fans?) Having admired the research
into
> >such matters that I've seen here, I'd welcome any guidance you folks
could
> >provide, onlist or offlist.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar  6 19:55:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:55:51 EST
Subject: Spider Cake (1895); "JFK" Googles ADS-L; Ski Butler
Message-ID: 

SPIDER CAKE
    
   "Spider cake" is in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE.  "Bannock" was 
mentioned on rec.food.historic.  Again, I don't know what DARE has for "spider 
cake," but I supplied a few posts.  Below is one from 1895.
  
  
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07FOOD.html?pagewanted=2
Easier to realize in your own kitchen is a creamy, corny skillet preparation 
from New England called spider cake, which has delighted roomfuls of people 
every time I've served it. So-called because of the veins created by the cream 
in its vortex, which separates the crumb during baking, this substantial 
one-skillet meal will get your kids to school happier than they've ever been, and 
you happy only if they've left some behind. As my recipe tester, Alice Thompson, 
responded: ''Spider cake rules! How has this escaped the culinary radar so 
far? Where has it been all my life?'
  
For a visually splendid accompaniment to the spider cake (also delectable 
standing alone), I stumbled across a feather-light balloon of eggs during a 
snowbound weekend at Wheatleigh, the exclusive hotel in Lenox, Mass. The chef J. 
Bryce Whittlesey's souffle omelet with goat cheese sent me back the next day for 
the one with wild mushrooms, and the next for the one with the house-smoked 
salmon. The ingredients were first-rate, but most unusual was the technique, 
and it's quite simple: separate the eggs, whisk the whites to soft peaks, fold 
them back together with seasoning and bake. Yes, bake. Timed right, this runny 
amalgam can then encompass any filling -- not just goat cheese or mushrooms. 
(But don't add the filling before cooking or the omelet may be too heavy to 
rise.) 

Whittlesey also simmers dried Turkish apricots in water, creating a sweet 
(but not jam-sweet) sauce that is just as delicious straight from the spoon as it 
is atop silver dollar pancakes, toast, yogurt or just about anything but 
chipped beef. 

And if you're too harried to make your own, there are so many fine 
breakfasting places in New York that any list must be anecdotal, and none could be 
comprehensive. If there are lines for the power breakfasts at the Regency, who 
wants power anyway -- too many responsibilities, too much envy. Go north to the 
Mark for gentility; west to the Fairway Cafe for the nicely scrambled eggs with 
chorizo and jalapeno and a side of perfect bacon -- not exactly a calming 
experience but certainly a New York one; south from there to Norma's in the 
Parker-Meridien for the berry-oatmeal risotto; downtown to Elephant & Castle for 
consistent invention, most recently the poached eggs under a woody sweet 
cremini-and-Madeira sauce; go around the corner with your laptop to Doma on Waverly 
and Perry for a treat called babichka -- French toast with cream cheese between 
the slices (much better than it sounds; it had better be, the word means 
''grandma'' in Czech); go Midtown to Popeye's for the redders and rice. (Actually, 
do that at any time of day.) 

Breakfast is also the best meal to have alone, accompanied by your favorite 
reading matter, comic book to Tolstoy in the original. Mine? (Present newsprint 
excluded, of course.) Anything that says ''Breakfast served all day.'' 

New England Spider Cake 
2 cups milk 
4 teaspoons white vinegar 
1 cup all-purpose flour 
3/4 cup yellow cornmeal 
3/4 cup sugar 
1/2 teaspoon baking soda 
1/2 teaspoon salt 
2 eggs 
2 tablespoons butter 
1 cup heavy cream. 


1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Combine milk and vinegar in a bowl and set 
aside to sour. In another bowl, combine flour, cornmeal, sugar, baking soda and 
salt. Whisk eggs into the soured milk. Stir into dry ingredients and set 
batter aside. 

2. Melt butter in a 12-inch cast-iron skillet. Pour in the batter. Pour cream 
into the center, slide skillet into the oven and bake until golden brown on 
top, about 45 minutes. Slice into wedges and serve warm. 

Yield: 8 servings. 
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Denton Journal - 6/29/1895  
...This is the real old-fashioned New England SPIDER CAKE, the direct 
deccndant of the old.....3Ir. W. I. Norris is now 3fr. II. A. Roo's book-keeper. SIO 
to Mnciira Fulls. In all the.....breaking them, lluve ready n thick iron 
SPIDER or old-fashioned frying pan.....found a table well spread with ice cream, 
CAKE and other refreshments. Those present..
Denton, Maryland Saturday, June 29, 1895  808 k   
Pg. 3, col. 7:
   _Huckleberry Bannock._
   This is the real old-fahsioned New England spider cake, the direct 
descendant of the old English griddle cake.  The fruit best suited to the bannock is 
the firm, small black huckleberry.  The large, blue juicy berry is apt to 
crush in the mixing with the spoon.  Carefully pick over the firm, black 
huckleberries, a quart to a bannock, wash them and lay them on a towel to dry, making 
the dough as follows: Sift a pint of flour with a teaspoonful of salt and two 
heaping teaspoonfuls of baking powder; chop into the flour two large 
tablespoonfuls of butter and mix in about a pint of water--enough to make a soft dough 
which will receive the berries without breaking them.  Have ready a thick iron 
spider or old-fashioned frying pan, moderately heated and containing about a 
teaspoonful of melted butter.  Mix the huckleberries through the dough without 
crushing them, press the dough gently over the bottom of the spider and smooth 
the top by wetting it with a blade of a bread, flat knife.  Make sure there 
is plenty of butter to brown the bottom of the bannock.  If there is not it 
will burn.  If the pan is kept over a moderate heat for about twenty to thirty 
minutes, and not allowed to become charred for lack of the drying medium, the 
cooking will be successfully accomplished.  The bannock is eaten hot with butter 
and sometimes iwth sugar and cream.  It is one of the most delicious of all 
the breakfast breads.

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"JFK" GOOGLES ADS-L
  
JUST FOR KERRY--456 Google hits, 99 Google Groups hits
    
  
   Just a month ago, on 8 February 2004, I posted this:
  
  This one has been making the rounds recently.  It was used in a NEW YORK 
POST story about "The Real Kerry."JFK "
JUST FOR KERRY--57 Google hits, 49 Google Groups hits   
    
  
   The hits have grown since then.  Interestingly, these are the first two 
Google results for "Just For Kerry":
    
(GOOGLE)
ADS-L archives -- February 2004, week 2
... JFK' in other langs (was: 'JFK: Just For Kerry'): Re: 'JFK' in other 
langs (was:
'JFK: Just For Kerry') (36 lines) From: Laurence Horn 
; ... 
listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/ wa?A1=ind0402b&L=ads-l - 43k - Mar 4, 2004 
- Cached - Similar pages 
  
New York Post Online Edition: postopinion
... His initials are JFK," longtime state Senate President William M.
Bulger used to muse on St. Patrick's Day, "Just for Kerry. He's ... 
nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/17337.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SKI BUTLER
  
   This was in the WALL STREET JOURNAL two days ago.  "Ski butlers" deliver 
warm boots, among other things.  There are only 17 Google hits for "ski 
butlers."  ("Ski Butler" gives you hits for Butler, Kentucky.)   Don't more people 
need warm boots??
    
 
(GOOGLE)
Ski Property for Sale Real Estate Chalet Home News Properties ...
... In the ever glitzier world of ski resorts (one hotel at Beaver Creek 
offers "ski
butlers" who deliver warmed boots each morning) there always have been a few 
... 
skiresorthome.com/ - 33k - Mar 4, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
   
DallasNews.com | News for Dallas, Texas | Travel: United States
... Tap the Ski Butlers in the hotel lobby each morning for information on 
the latest
weather and snow conditions, plus tips on powder stashes, the best-groomed 
... 
www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/fea/travel/unitedstates/ 
stories/122103dntranufantasies.99e1.html - 88k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Concierge.com: Cond? Nast Traveler: Lists
... TRAILS Beginner: 0% Intermediate: 48% Advanced: 52%. WHAT STANDS OUT Ski
butlers handle rentals, lift tickets, and even spa appointments. ... 
www.concierge.com/cntraveler/lists/skipoll02/detail/9 - 39k - Mar 5, 2004 - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
The St. Regis, Aspen - Aspen Hotels - CO
... Lounge. Whiskey Rocks provides the apr?s-ski scene. Skiers appreciate
the ski butlers and shuttles to nearby mountains. Insider ... 
www.expedia.co.uk/pub/agent.dll/qscr=dspv/htid=5594 - 43k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
The Timeshare Beat: Boomers Are Buying In At The "Mountain ...
... Village at Telluride in southwestern Colorado will feature not only 
heated cobblestone
walks and luxury cabins, but will include personal ski butlers to carry ... 
www.thetimesharebeat.com/archives/ts/tsdec24.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
The Timeshare Beat: New Luxury Resort in Telluride to be Managed ...> 
> ... Our services will be extraordinary, including ski butlers and personal
vacation planners,'' Gamache added. Wyndham International, Inc. ... 
www.thetimesharebeat.com/archives/htl/htloct79.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
The St. Regis Aspen - Cheap hotels in Aspen
... Lounge. Whiskey Rocks provides the apr?s ski scene. Skiers appreciate
the ski butlers and shuttles to nearby mountains. Insider ... 
www.cheephotels.co.uk/Aspen/The-St-Regis-Aspen.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar 
pages 


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Sat Mar  6 21:10:44 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:10:44 -0600
Subject: english-only yet again
Message-ID: 

Colleagues:

In the latest issue of Foreign Policy, Samuel P. Huntington writes that unless the US returns to its Anglo-Protestant, anglophone roots, it faces collapse. His target is Hispanic Americans. I've written the essay below, which I'm shopping around, as a response. I'm sending it to the ads-l fyi, and any comments are welcome.

Dennis

"Spanish, English, and the New Nativism"
by Dennis Baron

Linguistic nativism ? the kind that says, ?Speak English or go back where you came from? ? is a long-standing and regrettable American tradition. It?s also unnecessary. No matter how hard minority language speakers work to preserve their speech, they face an inexorable shift to English. That was true of German in the past, and it?s true of Spanish today. Eighteenth-century nativists like Benjamin Franklin accused German Americans of taking jobs away from English workers, of speaking a debased dialect of their own language, and of refusing to learn English. But it wasn?t long before the Germans, and just about everyone else who didn?t speak English, abandoned their heritage languages.

Today there is a popular perception that English, the language that dominates the entire world, is endangered at home. The new nativists see Spanish as the enemy. They are wrong: while Spanish has eclipsed German as the leading minority language spoken in this country, the 2000 Census reports that 92% of all Americans over five years old have no difficulty speaking English.

But Americans who speak only English, as most do, tend to see other languages as threats. When the U.S. entered World War I in 1917, the governor of Iowa, in his own version of the Patriot Act, struck out at the German enemy, forbidding the use of any foreign language in public. The number of Hispanics in Iowa doubled between 1990 and 2000, and fearing a Spanish invasion, in 2002 Iowa became the twenty-seventh state to make English its official language. But English in Iowa needs no protection: only 2.9% of Iowa?s population are Spanish speakers, and over half of them speak English very well.

English is secure as the language of American government, education, and commerce. But Harvard?s Samuel P. Huntington is only the latest scare monger to argue otherwise. In the current issue of Foreign Policy, Huntington warns that ?the values, institutions, and culture? of the creators of America ? white Protestant speakers of English ? are rapidly losing ground to multiculturalism and diversity. Adding academic cachet to the new nativism that calls Miami a foreign country and the American Southwest, North Mexico, Huntington laments that Hispanic immigrants, unlike other groups, retain their heritage language and pose a threat not just to English, but to American stability. He warns that the only way for Hispanics to buy into America without tearing it apart is to learn English: ?There is no Americano dream. There is only the American dream created by an Anglo-Protestant society. Mexican Americans will share in that dream and in that society only if they dream in English.?  [?The Hispanic Challenge,? Foreign Policy (March/April, 2004), pp. 30-45].

Huntington concedes that America no longer defines itself as exclusively white and Protestant, but he insists that the Anglo-Protestant creed, the American dream embodied in the English of Jefferson?s Declaration of Independence and the other founding documents, is something that non-English speakers are just not going to understand. Languages around the world carry the burdens of national or religious ideology, and English is no exception: it?s the language of representative democracy, of global capitalism, of rock ?n? roll. But that doesn?t mean that freedom, business and music can?t be expressed in other languages as well.

Huntington charges that unlike other groups, Hispanics oppose official-English laws, that even when their socioeconomic status improves, Hispanics hold on to Spanish, slowing their educational progress and ultimately, their assimilation. He suggests shutting off Mexican immigration to solve the language problem, facilitate assimilation, and preserve the union. A newly-diverse immigrant community, rather than the current predominantly-Spanish-speaking one, would once again adopt English as a common denominator, and the nation could return to normal.

But English, already the common denominator, isn?t the undisputed property of Anglo-Protestants. It?s a language that began in heathen Europe, traveled to Celtic Britain, was leavened with the Latin of Irish monks, the Norse of Viking raiders, and the French of Norman invaders intent on regime change. Even during the brief Anglo-Protestant moment of Shakespeare and King James, English swelled with borrowings from classical languages, Italian, and Spanish. Modern English has absorbed words from Arabic, Hebrew, Native American languages, Yiddish, Polish, Hindi, Bantu, and a host of tongues from Africa, Asia and the Pacific. In turn the British, and later the Americans, exported English around the globe, where local varieties of the language have gone native. In short, English is culturally diverse enough to make an Anglo-Protestant switch to Klingon.

Meanwhile, back home, even with the continuing influx of Spanish speakers to the U.S., Hispanic Americans are losing their Spanish, many of them by the second generation, considerably faster than the language loss of pre-World War I immigrants. And they object to official-English laws like Iowa?s not because they want to keep on speaking Spanish. It?s not the law that drives out the language, but subtle social and economic pressure. Hispanics object to official English legislation ? as all Americans should ? because such laws say, ?We don?t want you here.?

Dennis Baron                                         debaron at uiuc.edu
Dept. of English
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
608 S. Wright St.
Urbana, IL 61801
office: 217-244-0568
english dept.: 217-333-2390


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Mar  6 21:19:26 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:19:26 -0800
Subject: Bridge & Tunnel Crowd Redux
In-Reply-To: <40A37ED4-6F9A-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

This morning I heard a radio DJ here in the Bay Area (Annalisa on KFOG
104.5) use the term "bridge and tunnel crowd" to refer to suburbanites
coming into the city of San Francisco. The use of "bridge" certainly fits,
but "tunnel" is a bit out of place here--unless one is refering to the BART
tunnel running under the bay or to the Caldecott tunnel which runs
underneath the Oakland hills. (She followed up the "bridge and tunnel"
comment with a reference to people driving in from Concord & Walnut Creek.)
I've never heard it before outside of NYC references and this could be a
one-off usage.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar  6 22:10:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:10:40 -0500
Subject: Googleable ADS-L
Message-ID: 

I see that the messages on this list are now found by Google. This is a
fairly recent development. Presumably somebody started putting direct links
to the ADS-L archive on some bulletin board or Web page and the search
engine followed the links.

Whatever you or I said on the list about (say) "quahogs" three years ago
will be found by anybody googling for "quahogs". Then that interested
person can e-mail you and me at his pleasure to discuss the quahogs
further. Some words may arouse more -- and/or less welcome -- interest than
"quahogs", of course.

Googling for my own name I come up with hundreds of items from the list.

(Of course the archive was always (AFAIK) freely available on the Web to
anyone who looked for it.)

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 00:35:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:35:53 -0500
Subject: Spider Cake (1873) and Bannock (1810)
Message-ID: 

SPIDER CAKE

   More on the itsy bitsy spider.


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Print Source: Old times
Chellis, Mary Dwinell.
New York : National Temperance Society and Publication House, 1873.
Page 241:
CHAPTER XIV.
LUMBERING.
     THE next morning Mrs. Weston rose very early, to prepare breakfast for her husband, although he assured her that it was not necessary. "You and the children will need what there is," he said, kindly.

     "There'll be enough left for us," she answered with a smile which was almost bright. "We've got plenty, and I'm so happy. I don't want much to eat. I'll make some spider cakes for the children, so they'll have a treat."


(PROQUEST'S HERITAGE QUEST)
TRURO--CAPE COD, OR, LAND MARKS AND SEA MARKS
by Shebnah Rich
Boston: D. Lothrop & Co.
1883

Pg. 345:  The spider, or skillet, and the Dutch oven, should not be omitted from the list of kitchen furnishings.  They were indispensable agents of happiness and civilization.  Though not intended, I am not sure this remark does not contain a philosphical truth.  To the spider we are indebted for the famous "spider cakes," that for tender, wholesome, and well-cooked bread of wheat, corn or rye-flour, that to this day cannot well be surpassed.  The principal qualifications in this formula was "faculty."  It is surprising how largely that simple quantity permeated comfortable homes, and how large a factor it became in the social problem.  Should I go further and venture an opinion, from a quite broad field of observation it would be that the one needed accomplishment in settling the domestic question of the day, is _faculty_.  The favorite and never-failing item in the Cape bill of fare is pies.  The Old Colony wives were well--
   ---versed in the arts
   Of pies, puddings and tarts,
proving most conclusively their relations with the counties of old Devon and Cornwall.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BANNOCK

   OED has "bannock" from 1000 A.D., but the below might be of use.


(BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES)
   Spence, Elizabeth Isabella. "Letter from Elizabeth Isabella Spence to Turnour, Countess of Winterton, August 14, 1810"
[Page 193 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
to celebrate the victory of Robert over the English.35 "Bannockburn, from what reason we know not, receives its name from the panis cineritius of the Romans. Unleaven cakes, toasted in the ashes, or upon an iron plate, called a girdle, are named Bannocks in Scotland." ? Forsyth. Immediately after passing Bannockburn, I entered the town of St. Ninians. In an old low roofed house, on the left hand, report says, James the Third was mortally wounded by a priest, after the battle of Sanchieburn, where he was

Spence, Elizabeth Isabella, 1768-1832, Letter from Elizabeth Isabella Spence to Turnour, Countess of Winterton, August 14, 1810 in Sketches of the Present Manners, Customs, and Scenery of Scotland; With Incidental Remarks on the Scottish Character, 2nd edition, vol. 1. London, England: Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme & Brown, 1811, pp. 216. [Bibliographic Details] [8-14-1810] S9742-D026


   Carlyle, Jane Baillie Welsh. "Letter from Jane Baillie Welsh Carlyle to Thomas Carlyle, April 13, 1848"
[Page 318 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
light had been brought in; and, an hour after, tea was placed for me in the same invisible manner. I looked, to myself, sitting there, all alone, in the midst of comforts and luxuries not my own, like one of those wayfarers in the fairy tales who, having left home with `a bannock' to `poose their fortune,' and followed the road their `stick fell towards,' find themselves in a beautiful enchanted palace, where all their wants are supplied to them by supernatural agency; ? hospitality of the most exquisite description, only without

Carlyle, Jane Baillie Welsh, 1801-1866, Letter from Jane Baillie Welsh Carlyle to Thomas Carlyle, April 13, 1848 in Letters and Memorials of Jane Welsh Carlyle, vol. 1. Froude, James Anthony, ed.. New York, NY: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1883, pp. 445. [Bibliographic Details] [4-13-1848] S4444-D112


   Somerville, Mary Fairfax Greig. "Memoir of Mary Fairfax Greig Somerville"
[Page 14 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
of this extinct race. There was another species of beggar, of yet higher antiquity. If a man were a cripple, and poor, his relations put him in a hand-barrow, and wheeled him to their next neighbour's door, and left him there. Some one came out, gave him oat-cake or peasemeal bannock, and then wheeled him to the next door; and in this way, going from house to house, he obtained a fair livelihood. My brother Sam lived with our grandfather in Edinburgh, and attended the High School, which was in the old town, and, like other boys, he was given pennies to buy bread.

Somerville, Mary Fairfax Greig, 1780-1872, Memoir of Mary Fairfax Greig Somerville in Personal Recollections, from Early Life to Old Age, of Mary Somerville: With Selections from her Correspondence. Somerville, Martha, ed.. London, England: John Murray, 1873, pp. 377. [Bibliographic Details] [9999] S5126-D001


(GERRITSEN COLLECTION)
Natural history of rye (Secale cereale) and Rye-bread; The Magazine of domestic economy.
London: v. 1-7 (no. 1-84); July 1835-June 1842, Vol. 6, pg. 53-56, 4 pgs
Pg. 55:  We think that our inquiring friends who wish to know how oat-cakes and Scotch bannocks are made, will find the following very simple method of making thin ones the most expeditious, and the result more palatable, than those which are fermented with either yeast or leaven.
   Mix a stiff dough with water, salt, and oatmeal, roll it our round and as thin as possible, place it on a tin with a thick sprinkling of dry oatmeal over the surface of the tin, place two bricks one on each side of the kitchen fire, support the tin upon them--the smoke will thus escape behind, and there will be sufficient draught of air to draw up the fire.  In a _very few_ minutes, say less than four, one side will be baked enough, then turn the cake, and bake the other side as long a time.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 01:50:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:50:37 -0500
Subject: Finishing Sauce (1985)
Message-ID: 

FINISHING SAUCE--2,010 Google hits, 288 Google Groups hits
FINISHING SAUCES--1,1710 Google hits, 41 Google Groups hits

   It appears that I've looked at "barbecue sauce," but not "finishing sauce."  "Finishing sauce" was invented by a few girls in "finishing school."
   Does the "finishing sauce" term come from Memphis?


   February 2004, FIERY FOODS & BBQ (magazine), pg 20, cols. 1-2:
_Memphis-Style Finishing Sauce_
   This is the sauce that is traditionally served over smoked ribs in Memphis and other parts of Tennessee.  Some cooks add prepared yellow mustard to the recipe.  It can be converted into a basting sauce by adding more beer and a little more vinegar.  Add more hot sauce to taste, or substitute red chile or cayenne powder.
1 cup tomato sauce, preferably made
1 cup red wine vinegar
2 teaspoons Louisianna-style hot sauce
1 tablespoon butter
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 cup light beer
   Place all the ingredients in a saucepan and bring to a boil, stirring constantly.  Reduce the heat and simmer, uncovered, for 15 minutes.
   Remove from the heat, but serve warm over smoked meats.
   Yield: 2 1/2 cups
   Heat Scale:  Mild


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Alan Zelt (alzeltFINNFAN at worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Good BBQ Sauce
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
Date: 2000/03/07

"Charles L. Gifford" wrote:
>
> Alan Zelt wrote:
> >
> > Dwight Broeman wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok folks, BBQ season is coming. I have tried countless recipes for BBQ sauce
> > > and still have not found one yet that takes the cake. Are there any
> > > suggestions out there? Hot, spicy, sweet, rubs etc. I am easy!
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Dwight
> >
> > Barbecue sauce is not a rub, but I prefer Eastern Carolina sauce. Heavy
> > on the vinegar base.
> > --
> > alan
>
> This would be a "finishing sauce" would it not?
>
> Charlie

Generally speaking, a sauce is not applied until about 15 minutes before
completing the smoking, grilling to ensure that any sugar/tomato based
sauce does not burn. On the other hand, the Eastern Carolina sauce
contains no tomato base no any(or very little sugar). In that case, when
I smoke a pork butt, I rub in a little of it before I start smoking.

A finishing sauce is sometimes a partner to a good dry rub, which is
rubbed into the meat before smoking. In this case, the sauce may just
accompany the meat. Such would be the case at the Rendezvous in Memphis,
where their dry ribs are the specialty of the house.
--
alan


(FACTIVA)
4-H barbecue
285 words
1 August 1985
The Baton Rouge Morning Advocate
13-F

A new National 4-H chicken barbecue champion will be crowned Nov. 21 during the annual 4-H Poultry and Egg Conference in Louisville, Ky.

Finalists are now being selected in regional competitions. The contest is sponsored by the National Broiler Council and TUCO/Cobb, a supplier to the poultry industry.

In addition to actually barbecuing chicken for judging, those taking part in the contest must also display a knowledge of the poultry industry in a demonstration required of all contestants. The winner receives a $500 savings bond, a watch, a plaque and other prizes.

Last year's national champion was Sheri Yates of Woodland, Al., a student at Southern Union State Junior College. Her winning recipe for cooking chicken on the grill follows.

SASSY CHICKEN BARBECUE

(Winning recipe from 1984 Chicken Barbeue Contest at the National 4-H Poultry and Egg Conference).

Basting Sauce:

1 cup water

2 cups vinegar

1 cup vegetable oil

2 tbls. salt

2 tbls. pepper

1. In saucepan, place all ingredients and stir to mix well. Place over medium heat for about 10 minutes, continuing to stir. Use as sauce to baste chicken every 10 minutes, turning, as it grills.

Finishing Sauce:

2 cups catsup

1 cup fermented cane syrup

1 cup water

1/3 cup honey wine

1/2 cup lemon juice

1 1/2 tsps. fresh red pepper

2 tbls. margarine

2 tsps. salt

1/2 cup chopped onion

1 large sassafras root

2. In saucepan, mix together catsup, syrup, water, honey wine, lemon juice, red pepper, margarine, salt and onion; stir. Add sassafras root and heat over low heat.

3. Thoroughly coat chicken with sauce about 15 minutes before removing from grill.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Best Memphis Ribs Wore Mustard Coat
By SHIRLEY DOWNING. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1986. p. C10 (1 page)
(Article was too small to be read--ed.)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(Only these four bad hits--ed.)
Mountain Democrat - 5/24/1999
...cut the meat into small portions, fix the FINISHING SAUCE, gather the garnishes and..
Placerville, California   Monday, May 24, 1999  555 k

Post Crescent - 12/14/1967
...Remove chicken piece? and keep warm while FINISHING SAUCE. Boil liquid in pan rapidly.....stirring to loosen brown jarticles. Spoon SAUCE over skewered meat. Serve with grilled.....12 to 16 servings. WHIPPED CREAM PUDDING SAUCE 1 can crushed pineapple 1 cup canned.....and peel. Recipe makes about one quart SAUCE. STEAMED PINEAPPLE PUDDING 2 cups..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Thursday, December 14, 1967  691 k

Coshocton Tribune - 4/1/1976
...and keep warm in a 250degree oven while FINISHING SAUCE preparation. Add one-half cup.....you attributed to Paul was from the Book of Genesis You get so many things right.....range. Poached eggs with asparagus and wine SAUCE, and apricot V sausage wrapups are.....City as the official Bicentennial guide book for 1976-77. The 150-page soft-covered..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, April 01, 1976  545 k

Chronicle Telegram - 7/4/1974
...platter and keep warm in a F. oven while FINISHING SAUCE preparation. Add l'z cup of.....Poached Eggs with Asparagus and Wine SAUCE makes a fine brunch or luncheon dish.....especially, will like. First, a basic white SAUCE is made, gently seasoned with Tabasco.....brand pepper SAUCE. Then the eggs are poached in dry white..
Elyria, Ohio   Thursday, July 04, 1974  468 k


(GOOGLE GROUPS)(Earliest hits--ed.)
Re: Buffalo wings recipe needed
... 5) Meanwhile, make a finishing sauce by melting the remaining 5 tablespoons of butter
with the remaining 2 teaspoons Tabasco and the remaining seasoning mix in ...
rec.food.cooking - Apr 28, 1995 by JGruhn - View Thread (4 articles)

Re: scotched bonnet chiles
... Finishing sauce #23768 -----don't know what else to call it -
just something I threw together) 1/2 scotch bonnet pepper, minced 2 apricots ...
rec.food.cooking - Jun 30, 1994 by Julian Vrieslander - View Thread (11 articles)

Re: Barbecue debate
... Their prep is quite complex and involves multiple steps: marination, wrapping the
meat in banana leaves and smoking it, and then grilling with a finishing sauce ...
rec.food.cooking - Oct 10, 1993 by Julian Vrieslander - View Thread (8 articles)

Re: REQUEST: Salmon Steaks
... Transfer fish to 2 warm dinner plates. Place plates in warm oven while finishing
sauce. Pour vinegar into skillet. Stir well with wooden spoon. Add mushrooms. ...
rec.food.cooking - Jun 2, 1993 by Lynne Nishihara - View Thread (10 articles)

RECIPERe: LOOKING FOR A RECIPE FOR CHICKEN MARSALA
... 3/4 cup) 2 cloves garlic, smashed but not chopped or crushed Sliced mushrooms (either
quartered or sliced)--2 or 3 hand-fulls 2 tbs butter for finishing sauce. ...
rec.food.cooking - May 24, 1991 by Margaret Woo - View Thread (1 article)


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark FINISHING SAUCE
Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Pasta sauces
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78355654
Filing Date January 22, 2004
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) LiDestri Foods, Inc. CORPORATION NEW YORK 815 West Whitney Road Fairport NEW YORK 14450
Attorney of Record Darren B. Cohen
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 02:12:06 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:12:06 -0500
Subject: Upstate/downstate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Here's another take on upstate, from a posting this evening on the
alt.coffee newsgroup:

>My boyfriend and I are running a small coffee cafe in upstate new york
>(Westchester County).

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 02:21:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:21:23 -0500
Subject: Beer Can Chicken (1993)
Message-ID: 

   The recipes are straight-forward and easy to follow, and to the author's credit, _there is not a single recipe for beer can chicken!_  Hallelujah!
--FIERY FOODS & BBQ (magazine), February 2004, pg. 46, col. 1 (www.fiery-foods.com).
   (Review of MASTERING THE BBQ: A COMPENDIUM OF BARBECUE RECIPE AND KNOWLEDGE by Michael H Stines, Cape Cod, MA: Cape Cod Barbecue, 2003.)

BEER CAN CHICKEN--25,200 Google hits, 646 Google Groups hits


   Hallelujah?  Doesn't "beer can chicken" taste great?  Isn't it less filling?  At the risk of offending true BBQ Gods, here goes.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)(Earliest hits--ed.)
Nearing Nirvana!
... Pacific NW. Just wanted to pass along our thanks for all your help.
Tomorrow we try beer-can chicken! Thanks again! We'll be lurking.
alt.food.barbecue - Sep 26, 1998 by Stan Orchard - View Thread (1 article)

Re: I want crispy skin on my roast chicken
... 7. Place "beer can chicken" on a baking sheet. 8. Bake upright on the
lowest oven rack at 350 - 375? for 1 hr. 15 min to 1 hr. 30 min. ...
rec.food.cooking - Aug 25, 1995 by Bob Patton - View Thread (20 articles)


(FACTIVA)
The Ritz of pits/Houston brothers smoke the competition
STEVEN LONG
Staff
1,757 words
25 June 1993
Houston Chronicle
2 STAR
1
English
(Copyright 1993)

TALK about your tall Texas tales, did you hear the one about the four Houston boys who beat the oil bust with a barbecue pit?

Well, way back in '73, four brothers - Wayne and Lawrence Whitworth and their half-brothers, Raymond and Dickie Hartis - decided to make a go with a sheet-metal business. Sheet-metal parts were in high demand at the time, being used to make parts used by an oil industry going like gangbusters.

Every now and then, they'd mold some of that sheet metal into a barbecue pit for their friends. These weren't your run-of-the-mill pits; they were heavy-duty setups made of high-quality parts and custom-designed.

Well, word of those pits spread and spread, even though the boys weren't exactly giving them away. To tell the truth, those pits were pretty pricey.

So when the day came that the oil patch went and dried up, the boys focused their attention on those BBQ pits. In 1983 they opened up a retail store. They called it Pitt's & Spitt's.

Today, their pits are smoking around the world - Australia, England, Ireland, Saudi Arabia and Germany. They still call for a chunk of change - from $395 for an ordinary charcoal grill to $3,600 for an ""ultimate'' pit with an upright smoker, a small trailer and double gas burners.

""They can go to $35,000 or up,'' said Wayne Whitworth, who is CEO of Har-Whit, the corporation for Pitt's & Spitt's. ""The sky is the limit. It just depends on what you want on it.

""The most expensive one we ever sold - I can't give out the (exact) price on it - but it was about $55,000,'' he said. It went to a Houston man who Whitworth prefers not to name. ""We've sold a lot of them for from $18,000 to $20,000. They have a lot of special stuff on them.''

Last year, the firm, which has 40 employees, sold 500 pits worldwide. There is hope to expand to franchises in other cities.

""Right now, we are having hell just staying up with our own sales,'' Whitworth said.

It all started 20 years ago with a $1,200 loan from the Houston Fire Dept. Credit Union. Wayne Whitworth and his half-brother, Raymond Hartis, worked for the department, while Dickie Hartis and Lawrence Whitworth were in the sheet-metal business. The money was used to start their own sheet-metal place.

Business was good until 1983. It was then that their hobby took on more import.

Their entry into the pit business as a sideline to their sheet-metal business was not entirely by happenstance. The brothers had gained some small acclaim at barbecue cookoffs. They called themselves ""The Pitt's and Spitt's Brothers,'' and they were often winners.

Like most Texans, the brothers, who share the same mother, had grown up around barbecue.

""Our stepdad taught us the concept of smoking,'' Wayne Whitworth said. ""He was a great barbecuer.''

So it was this combination of know-how, materials and misfortune (the oil bust) that cast the brothers into the barbecue arena.

""Our old man raised us that everything worth doing is worth doing perfect,'' Whitworth said.

Still, there were some doubts.

""I didn't think people would pay the price which such a well-made pit would demand,'' he said.

He was wrong.

""We just shipped two (smokers) to the president of Ukraine,'' Wayne Whitworth said.

But the president of the former Soviet republic isn't the only head of state to cook on a Pitt's and Spitt's setup.

A few years ago, the brothers shipped a $1,025 model to a remote address in Maryland called Camp David. George Bush has long been a backyard barbecue fan.

When Bush left the White House, he invited Whitworth to his home here in Houston.

""Me and my brother Raymond gave him a few helpful hints,'' Whitworth said, including how to smoke a chicken.

""It's called beer-can chicken,'' Whitworth laughed. ""You fill a beer can with about a half can of beer and a half can of water, throw in some chopped onion and some spices, then insert the can in the chicken's cavity.''

The bird is then perched upright on the can and slow-smoked. The brew in the can keeps the meat moist.
(...)


(FACTIVA)
  Hog-Wild in Memphis
Steven Raichlen
Special to The Washington Post
3,249 words
1 June 1994
The Washington Post
FINAL
e01
(...)
BEER CAN CHICKEN

(Makes 4 to 5 servings)

This offbeat recipe makes the most succulent barbecued chicken I've ever tasted. The secret: An open can of beer is inserted into the cavity of the bird, which is cooked upright. Besides being incredibly tender, the bird makes a great conversation piece. The recipe comes from the Bryce Boar Blazers of Texas.

4-to-5-pound chicken

FOR THE DRY RUB:

1 tablespoon seasoning salt

1 tablespoon garlic powder

Salt and black pepper to taste

TO SMOKE:

1 jar of Cajun Injector+ seasoning (optional)

1 can of beer (the Blazers use Budweiser++)

1/2 to 1 cup mesquite chips, soaked in cold water for 1 hour

Remove any fat lumps in the cavity. Wash chicken well; blot dry. Combine the dry rub ingredients and season the bird inside and out.

If using Cajun Injector, load the syringe and inject 1 tablespoon sauce into each breast, leg and thigh.

Pop the tab off the beer can. Using a "church key"-style can opener, make 6 or 7 holes in the top of the can. Spoon any remaining dry rub through the holes into the beer. Stand the chicken upright and insert the beer can into the cavity. Spread out the legs to form a sort of tripod, so the bird stands upright.

Place the chicken in a smoker or a grill set up as a smoker (see instructions at the bottom of Page E10). Smoke-cook the chicken for 2 1/2 to 3 hours or until fall-off-the-bone tender. Serve the chicken upright on the beer can on a platter.

+ Note: Cajun Injector is a bottled basting mixture. If unavailable, you can use the Crispy Critter basting mixture below or omit it entirely.

++ Budweiser does not officially endorse this use of its beer or beer can.

Per serving: 1102 calories, 122 gm protein, 5 gm carbohydrates, 60 gm fat, 17 gm saturated fat, 486 mg cholesterol, 1784 mg sodium


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Beer-can chicken :
and 74 other offbeat recipes for the grill /
Author: Raichlen, Steven.
Publication: New York : Workman Pub., 2002
Document: English : Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 03:04:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:04:52 -0500
Subject: Ambulance Chaser (1896)
Message-ID: 

   "Ambulance chaser," like "shyster," is another epithet used at lawyers.  The HDAS, citing the DA, has July 1897...Like "shyster," "ambulance chaser" might also come from New York City...PUCK should have "ambulance chaser," but we don't have the 1890s years yet.  I e-mailed an APS ONLINE ProQuest guy, but got no response.
   If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496, I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Broad Ax - 9/12/1896
...the activity of the lawyers known as "AMBULANCE CHASERS" will be convinced of their.....miles of Boston. Send postal card for book. A benefit is always experienced from..
Salt Lake City, Utah   Saturday, September 12, 1896  687 k
Pg. 3?, col. 4:
      _"AMBULANCE CHASERS"_
_Pettifogging Lawyers Who Hunt Up_
   _Cases in Which They Can Get_
   _Jobs._
   Anybody who doubts the activity of the lawyers known as "ambulance chasers" will be convinced of their alertness after a short experience in one of the accidents happening every day.  Victims of any sort of accidents are very promptly deluged with cards and advertsiements of such attorneys: but it used to be necessary for the lawyers to wait until the cases were published in the newspapers.  Now such delay rarely occurs.   The method of acquainting themselves with such matters has been brought down to a science, and offers to obtain legal redress reach the victims of the misfortune rapidly.  One instance of escpecial promptness happened the other day, when a man was run over by a wagon in Grand street.  This occurred at half past 8 in the morning, and before 10 a lawyer had interviewed him and made arrangements to undertake the case.  Such rapidity is rather exceptional, but instances little short of it are to be noticed every day.  
Message-ID: 

deviance (OED 1944)

1941 _Amer. Anthropologist_ 43: 22  Only this solitary settlement has
taken to raising potatoes, only they keep cattle as well as buffalo.  The
reason for their deviance is not far to seek.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 04:06:46 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:06:46 -0500
Subject: Spider Cake (1895)
In-Reply-To: <1df.1aad468b.2d7b86c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 2:55 PM -0500 3/6/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>SPIDER CAKE
>
>    "Spider cake" is in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE.  "Bannock" was
>mentioned on rec.food.historic.  Again, I don't know what DARE has for "spider
>cake," but I supplied a few posts.  Below is one from 1895.

Indeed.  Barry posts confirm my reaction when I read this article
earlier this evening...

>
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/magazine/07FOOD.html?pagewanted=2
>Easier to realize in your own kitchen is a creamy, corny skillet preparation
>from New England called spider cake, which has delighted roomfuls of people
>every time I've served it. So-called because of the veins created by the cream
>in its vortex, which separates the crumb during baking, this substantial
>one-skillet meal will get your kids to school happier than they've
>ever been, and
>you happy only if they've left some behind.

...which was that, pace Jonathan Reynolds (author of this piece),
spider cake *isn't* so-called because of the "veins created by the
cream in its votex", but rather for the same reason skillet corn
bread is so-called--because it's made in one.   Nice to have the
evidence to prove it!

larry horn


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sun Mar  7 07:24:11 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 02:24:11 -0500
Subject: Undergraduate front-clipping (was 'mo=homo)
Message-ID: 

Reminds me of my friends in college who went around a medieval banquet exclaiming 'Zilla.

After the pattern of 'Swounds or 'Struth or 'Steeth.

Se?n Fitzpatrick
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Mar  7 14:56:53 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:56:53 -0500
Subject: english-only yet again
Message-ID: 

        The original article Samuel Huntington, to which Dennis Baron's essay is a response, is available online at

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2495

John Baker


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Sun Mar  7 14:48:12 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:48:12 +0000
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
>> slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
>> generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
>> students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
>> father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days...

I learned 'rents from my 30-something Resident Director when I was a
Resident Assistant at UMass in 1985/86 (I remember the 'eureka' feeling
when I gleaned what it means). I particularly remember her using it in
discussions about coming out, so it could've come to her via gay/lesbian
subculture or the in loco parentis subculture of resident
directors/assistants (or elsewhere...).

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Mar  7 16:30:15 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:30:15 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078670892@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Lynne Murphy
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 6:48 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: 'mo = homo
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >
> >> I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
> >> slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
> >> generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
> >> students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
> >> father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days...
>
> I learned 'rents from my 30-something Resident Director when I was a
> Resident Assistant at UMass in 1985/86 (I remember the 'eureka' feeling
> when I gleaned what it means). I particularly remember her using it in
> discussions about coming out, so it could've come to her via gay/lesbian
> subculture or the in loco parentis subculture of resident
> directors/assistants (or elsewhere...).

I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American undergraduate days a few years
earlier (1981-85). There was no association with gay subculture. I recall
'mo as a insult from my high school days. It was not as common as 'rents was
a few years later.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar  7 19:21:21 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:21:21 -0800
Subject: easy/eager
Message-ID: 

elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04
Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR:

   It's not a government with which the international community will be
easy to deal.

at first i thought that pastor had gotten into this by embarking on a
relative clause construction, opting for a fronted rather than stranded
preposition (possibly because fronted prepositions are perceived as
being more formal, more elegant, and more standard), and then
continuing with a "tough-movement" (a.k.a. object-to-subject raising)
clause, which, unfortunately, doesn't permit preposition fronting
(there's no place to move the preposition *to* in "This will not be
easy for the international community to deal with").  but then how did
"the international community" end up as the subject of "will be
easy..."?

the grammatical alternatives to what pastor said are pretty distant
from it:

   It's not a government...
     which will be easy for the international community to deal with./
     with which the international community will find it easy to deal./
     with which the international community will easily deal.

eventually it occurred to me that pastor might simply have blended
tough-movement and the equi construction with predicates like "be
eager":

   It's not a government with which the international community will be
eager to deal.

it's possible, even likely, that pastor intended to assert both
difficulty of dealing with this government and lack of enthusiasm on
the part of the international community, and ended up with the syntax
for the latter but the head adjective for the former.  this is, of
course, just inspired speculation, but that's pretty much all we have;
it would undoubtedly be pointless to ask him what he had on his mind.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), with echoes of "John is easy/eager
to please"
   in his head


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Mar  7 19:39:50 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: <9DE86D3E-706C-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note that Smokey The Bear's
tagline has changed to "Only you can prevent wildfires." I don't know when
the shift from "forest fires" occurred, but I heard it in a TV ad today. I
thought it might be language targeted for a California audience, but
"wildfire" is used on the web site www.smokeybear.com.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Mar  7 19:49:19 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:49:19 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
Message-ID: 

        Isn't this related to the difference between "good" and "bad" fires?  See http://www.smokeybear.com/good-bad.asp.  The old language suggested that all forest fires are bad, which is no longer the Forest Service's position.

John Baker


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 19:49:47 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:49:47 -0600
Subject: easy/eager
In-Reply-To: <200403071921.i27JLQG11274@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04
> Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR:
>
>    It's not a government with which the international community will be
> easy to deal.


Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"?

Jim Parish


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 19:52:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:52:40 EST
Subject: Can of Worms (1951); Candy From a Baby (1902); How You Play the
 Game (1926)
Message-ID: 

   A few more of Gregory Titelman's American Proverbs checked here.
   Some Fred Shapiro-type work before I get to my Grant Barrett-type work and
Andy Smith-type work.  Then my laundry and my taxes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CAN OF WORMS

  OED has 1962 for the worms.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Appleton Post Crescent - 4/29/1940
...ANO HOMI SOON.... AND we ALWAYS TOSSES HIS CAN OF WORMS INTO TM8 WATtR
WHiN ROOM and.....AFTER, BUILD oun. OWN BAKEAV BY JOVE, I CAN EVEN SEE WHERE WE
WILL WAVE TO EXPAND.....Hood, forests OF redwood trees, the Lakes OF Killarney,
the Alps OF Switzerland, and.....OF your scrapbook.) If you want a free copy
OF the leaflet entitled OF j European War..
Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, April 29, 1940  916 k

Lethbridge Herald - 9/10/1953
...under operational conditions in such a ''CAN OF WORMS and it was even
.harder to.....Like 'CAN OF WORMS1 TCA Head Scores Complicated.....complexity OF
construction, is like n OF WORMS. Speaking as guest OF honor at Sinner.....she
intends to marry as soon as the singer CAN obtain a divorce from his third
wife..
Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, September 10, 1953  554 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 11/29/1951
...Info, Right From Supply Department 'A CAN OF WORMS' BY PETER EDSON The
question OF.....Soviet aggression is still regarded as "a CAN OF WORMS" at eneral
Elsenhower's SHAPE.....what to surprise her with at Christmas. You CAN count
on your fingers the friends you CAN.....larger than the 5 cents an hour that
CAN be granted under the current formula OF..
Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, November 29, 1951  625 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/29/1953
...AND GOOD LUCK FROM A LIBERAL AT LARGE. CAN OF WORMS. 'It's why I came
here. She met.....OF Australia at one time. Is he dumb? He CAN't even tell
Galsworthy from gallstone.....Iowa, Smith OF New Jersey, Mundt OF South Dakota and
Fulbright OF Arkansas.....irt OF love does not end with the latching OF the
trolley ear. in Nature, the head OF..
Edwardsville, Illinois Monday, June 29, 1953  701 k

Mansfield News Journal - 7/30/1946
...IS NO OBJECTOUT VOU'D THINK THE PRICE OF A CAN OF WORMS WOULD BREAK HIM
EHBMAN.....FOR DOUGH ON TREES.' BUT, SEERSUCKER y, VOU CAN BUV A WHOLE CAN OF
BUY THE BEST. AN.....GIMME A NEW TACKLE BOX AND A BUTT REST AMD WORMS AT THE
STORESEERSUCKER WILL TOSS HIS.....EXPENSIVE BUT WHAT. AND PAV TWO BITS WHEN I CAN
DIG UP ALL I WANT RIGHT MERE..
Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, July 30, 1946  813 k

Traverse City Record Eagle - 4/25/1951
...AT DIWNERTIME TffgUY A.THE PINNER. HIM A CAN OF WORMS., IOOK, CHRIS, HE
WON'T THEM HOW.....pronoun 57 2.S 20 24 5g 4-15 SCOTT'S SCRAP BOOK By R. J.
SCOTT lo-fus SEEDS f IVt.....BIHDWASHUNSRY V BUY THEHE'D EAT ANYTHING. WORMS AND
AUO I'M NOT SOIMGVOUr YOU COOK.....PRIZES. DAILY CROSSWORD ACROSS 4. 1. Kind OF
nail 5. Genus OF 5. Illy 6. 9. Adorn 10..
Traverse City, Michigan Wednesday, April 25, 1951  692 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CANDY FROM A BABY

   This is absolutely right and just.  Babies shouldn't have candy!
   The 1889 citation is probably from 1989.  You just have to know these
things with Newspaperarchive.
   OED has no "candy from a baby" entry?  Titelman gives no date, and 1951 is
his first citation.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Weekly Messenger - 2/19/1902
...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. The' chAnces
Are A.....One English industry which hAs not suffered FROM the invAsion lA
the lAundry which in.....Accounts of Aged chiefs who hAd the story FROM their fA
thers, vthAt the body wAs cut up..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 19, 1902  1014 k

Indiana Democrat - 2/12/1902
...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. chAnces Are
A thousAnd to.....willing. J. C. ATEK CO., Lowell, MAli. Ties FROM StrAw. A WA
shington mAn hAs struck A.....forwArd with A mAchine which mAke ties FROM strA
w, the cheApest mAteriAl In the..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 12, 1902  870 k

Indiana Progress - 1/8/1902
...money. To get his bAnk roll is like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby. The chAnces
Are A thousAnd.....PA. 42 DEAD OR MISSING. ONE LiFE RAFT FROM WALLA WALLA UNHE
ARD OF. SAd Experience.....condition. The steAmer George W. Elder, FROM PortlA
nd, reports thAt she pAssed the..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 08, 1902  670 k

Oxnard Courier - 9/27/1902
...thAt to cAsh A bet wAs "like tAking CANDY FROM A bAby." So eAsy, yet withA
l so.....few prices Clothes Pins. 3 dozen 5c 1600 5c BAby Ribbon, 10 yArds
-10c Pins, 4 pAckAges.....AD I JVC TLACE JVo Trouble to Goods Money FROM A,
Turchcue o_f Embroideries In GothAm.....to be considered? 200 yArds of Embroidery
FROM 2 to 6 in wide, dAinty edges, beAutiful..
Oxnard, California Saturday, September 27, 1902  482 k

Mountain Democrat - 11/7/1889
...DemocrAt Correspondent It wAs like steAling CANDY FROM A bAby. Following A
girls.....DorAdo girls win lAugher BRUINS .continued FROM B-1 CougArs host
VintAge in Division II.....to go into plAyoffs with, And A good win FROM the
kids' stAndpoint." By virtue of this..
Placerville, California Thursday, November 07, 1889  464 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME

   "It's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game."  Titleman
says that this was coined by the famed sportswriter Grantland Rice.  He gives
1954 for the date of Rice's "Alumnus Football" poem, but others give 1941 as
this date.  (Rice died in 1954.)
   We should find nothing before 1941...I haven't checked the SPORTING NEWS
or ProQuest yet.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/29/1927
...bo In baseball, "It all depends on HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best of
what YOU've.....done to baseball is listed in every re cord book. What
baseball haa tlono to John Joseph.....a hit with his bat on his shoulder, "Never
PLAY for a tie I Always PLAY to win. "A good.....bucathing, umpire-baiting,
dynamic little GAME cock. Now ho is older, wiser, and..
Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 29, 1927  499 k

Mansfield News - 11/6/1927
...It isn't wheTHEr YOU in or Josecut HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Walter Camp
saiei it concisely.....go lose or conquer as YOU can. But if YOU fall or it YOU
rise Be.....icitor for THE Mansfield Ne-K-s. is in THE health department be THE
recovering from.....is ehaznsan. -cr.y. he -as engaged in and THE saeeting be
in THE center -.vork for..
Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, November 06, 1927  803 k

Frederick Post - 8/1/1927
...Take a Chance "It all depends on 'HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best -of
what YOU've.....a hit with -his bat on his shoulder. "Never PLAY for i tie
Always PLAY to win: "A good.....but whose intentions were good. Now THE GAME is
on a higher level. I see more college.....He was a fire-breathing, dynamic
little GAME cock. Now he is older, wiser, and mel..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, August 01, 1927  916 k

Decatur Review - 10/25/1926
...after all, in life or sport, It Is HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME, not what THE
score is, that.....men and women. In sport children learn to PLAY THE GAME,
fairly and with every ounce of.....Is doing well could be expected. THE PLAY given
tay THE Dramatic club was well.....Montgomery and daughter, Nellie tended THE
PLAY given by THE ma'.lc club Thursday..
Decatur, Illinois Monday, October 25, 1926  692 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 7/25/1927
...TAKE A CHANCE "It all depends on. HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. Make THE best.of.
what YOU've.....done to baseball is listed In every record book. What
baseball has done to John Joseph.....a hit" with his bat on his shoulder. "Never PLAY
for a tie Always PLAY to win. "A good.....NEW LONDON BOOSTERS .LOOSE THEIR
FIRST GAME Xew London THE New London Boosters lost..
Appleton, Wisconsin Monday, July 25, 1927  975 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/13/1926
...It is not THE victory that but HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME." Smith could make
such a.....by Lilies Quartette. "Peace I Leave With YOU" Koberts. Solo "Lord of
THE Land and Sea.....THEme "Observing ILent." He. will sHOW: I. HOW WP are i
to observe it, and 2, Why we.....of THE Bessemer towniihlp schools, THE Chorus
of THE Purltnn Junior High school..
Ironwood, Michigan Saturday, February 13, 1926  483 k

Hayward Review - 11/5/1926
...much wheTHEr YOU win or lose, its HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME." Draw YOUr own j
conclusions.....THE open spaces that atti acted him. It was THE cows THE
mselves. YOU see each cow.....Road to Glory." ALSO Laura La Plante in "THE Beautiful
Cheat" THE gorgeous drama of.....dishes more wholesome and nutritious. Do YOU
know that YOU can buy Mutual Milk for 9c..
Hayward, California Friday, November 05, 1926  618 k
Pg. 4?, col. 3:
   Asked whether he indulged in out door sports and things, this man of ready
wit replied "It's not so much wether you win or lose, it's how you play the
game."  Draw your own conclusions as to what he meant by that.
(Attributed here to Lee Wilbur, not Grantland Rice--ed.)


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Mar  7 20:27:50 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:27:50 -0500
Subject: Antedating? of tchotchke and bummerkeh (ca. 1912)
Message-ID: 

How do you know if you've antedated Yiddish words?  The spelling variations play havoc.  

Tsatske or Tchotchke, meaning a knickknack to most these days, but always retains the old-time meaning of a 'chick' or babe, a loose woman, perhaps merely a pretty one  to me. It is cited in OED from 1964.  HDAS probably will have much earlier.

>From a piece of sheet music titled "At The Yiddisher Ball"  from ca. 1912, lyrics by Joe McCarthy, music by Harry Piani.  From the Indiana U. Cunningham Library Kirk Collection of sheet music.

"In our neighborhood we have, what you call, Once a year a sociable ball, What a time, there's everything you wish, Every one is dressed from soup to fish; You take Rifky, she looks pretty nifty, Don't you mind to bring the lunch, it only costs you fifty; There'll be wine and every thing that's fine At the yiddish sociable ball."

(Chorus) "At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball, There'll be only class, or there'll be nothing at all, And when that orchestra plays Yiddish Kazotskys and Bombershays;  At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball.  We'll make monkey-dood-les 'round the hall, Out upon the floor I'll be Jakey on the spot, Doing the kosher turkey trot, At that first class yiddisher sociable, (Remember, fifty cents admits the ladies and the gents) At that first class yiddisher sociable ball. 

So, I'm assuming "Kazotskys" is 'tchotchkes' and "Bombershays" is related to 'bummerkeh', which according to Leo Rosten means a woman who bums around, a loose woman.  

The two words mean the same in the song, the way I read it.

"Bombershays' may be something else entirely.  

Sam Clements


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 20:47:09 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:47:09 -0500
Subject: Antedating? of tchotchke and bummerkeh (ca. 1912)
In-Reply-To: <000801c40482$a992db50$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

Sam Clements wrote:
>How do you know if you've antedated Yiddish words?  The spelling
>variations play havoc.
>
>Tsatske or Tchotchke, meaning a knickknack to most these days, but
>always retains the old-time meaning of a 'chick' or babe, a loose
>woman, perhaps merely a pretty one  to me. It is cited in OED from
>1964.  HDAS probably will have much earlier.
>
>>>From a piece of sheet music titled "At The Yiddisher Ball"  from
>>ca. 1912, lyrics by Joe McCarthy, music by Harry Piani.  From the
>>Indiana U. Cunningham Library Kirk Collection of sheet music.
>
>"In our neighborhood we have, what you call, Once a year a sociable
>ball, What a time, there's everything you wish, Every one is dressed
>from soup to fish; You take Rifky, she looks pretty nifty, Don't you
>mind to bring the lunch, it only costs you fifty; There'll be wine
>and every thing that's fine At the yiddish sociable ball."
>
>(Chorus) "At the ball, at the ball, at the yiddisher ball, There'll
>be only class, or there'll be nothing at all, And when that
>orchestra plays Yiddish Kazotskys and Bombershays;  At the ball, at
>the ball, at the yiddisher ball.  We'll make monkey-dood-les 'round
>the hall, Out upon the floor I'll be Jakey on the spot, Doing the
>kosher turkey trot, At that first class yiddisher sociable,
>(Remember, fifty cents admits the ladies and the gents) At that
>first class yiddisher sociable ball.
>
>So, I'm assuming "Kazotskys" is 'tchotchkes' and "Bombershays" is
>related to 'bummerkeh', which according to Leo Rosten means a woman
>who bums around, a loose woman.


Nope. "kazotskeys" probably refers to a Russian-inspired dance. My
Yiddish-English dictionary (Uriel Weinreich's) has  'dance
of Cossack origin'. It's kind of hard to describe, but it involves
hands on hips (or behind one's back) and sequentially kicking one's
legs out in front, from a squatting position.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 20:50:56 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:50:56 EST
Subject: How You Played the Game (1918); Tsatske
Message-ID: 

HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME

   On further review, the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS has 1930
for Grantland Rice's "Alumnus Football."  Still way off.
   I forgot to look for "how you PLAYED the game."

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Daily Review - 7/18/1921
...writes not that YOU won or los But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. f MASTER IN
CHANCERY'S SALE.....of THE 3rd P. M., as per pint recorded in Book 14, page 455
of THE records of Macon.....THE fightihK cop is not a novice at THE GAME,
having cleaned up everything put agalns.....to THE City of Decatur, as sHOWn by
plat in Book 22, at page 560 in THE recorder's office..
Decatur, Illinois Monday, July 18, 1921  688 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 4/29/1924
...writes Not that YOU won or lost But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME." FRED FELIX
WETTENGEL GEORGE.....for THE Kimberly-Clark company. He is THE book paper
manufacturing member of THE club.....at THE center of THE whole business that THE
Rotarians THEmselves hardly realize HOW.....MAY YOUR VISIT TO APPLETON BE ONE
THAT YOU WILL LONG REMEMBER. Scheil Bros. GOOD..
Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, April 29, 1924  670 k

Wellsboro Agitator - 10/30/1918
...thought and' watched his every move, and he PLAYED a soldier's' part. 'Xp
greater.....a slant in THE air. When ing down YOU get THE same sensation as
when starting down in a.....looks like quite a probVeiii to figure .out HOW a
person is able to hold THE: steady.....believing that THE experience I have
gained THE better fits me to serve YOU and our..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 30, 1918  908 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/20/1926
...writes not that YOU won or lost But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Ira H.
McCiymonds, Pastor.....a decision. A-notlicr ttttrno will be PLAYED between THEse
two mjuads In THE near.....school gym Thursday night. THE opening GAME between
THE Scouti Middles and THE.....In THE last quarter THE Scouts tied THE GAME up
at 19 all. In an overtime period both..
Ironwood, Michigan Saturday, February 20, 1926  640 k

Decatur Review - 11/13/1923
...not that YOU -won or lost, But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Officiate of
MlHikin and.....his lessons from THE passages in THE book, he preponted to THE
Klwanlans some of.....toward THE Crimson section formed an and PLAYED 'THE Crimson
Flames In Triumph.' That.....should take. Honor THE opponent, play THE GAME
tn THE best sporting ethics and renumber..
Decatur, Illinois Tuesday, November 13, 1923  639 k

Wellsboro Agitator - 11/13/1918
...YOUr name He not that YOU won But HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. THE prices of
Shoes at Smith.....hen THE war is over YOU read THE history of THE S. Army in
where THE 79th shot to pieces.....THE chosen line and were Oct. YOUr over THE
-top: Words can't half express. HOW glad I.....THE best; but let THE cause be
what it may, THE opinion of THE Anierican Iwys is that THE..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 13, 1918  926 k
Pg. 2, col. 7:
For when the one great Scorer comes
   To write against your name
He writes--not that you won or lost,
   But how you played the game.
(This is in an ad, not attributed to anyone.  It's probably from Grantland
Rice.  At least we have a closer date to it--ed._

Sheboygan Press - 7/14/1925
...not thnt YOU won or lost, but HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME. Courteous, gracious
and.....thirty-five oTHErs serve YOU with laughs at THE rate of six ty per
minute. THE above.....or individual and should teach children HOW and What io
play, through individual.....THE uso of THE apparatus unless under THE personal
supervision of THE supervisor..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 14, 1925  929 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
CAN OF WORMS

   The RHHDAS has 1927-1928 for "it's all like a canful of angle-worms to
me!" and then 1954-1960.  I'm a little curious if there's a citation gap between
1927 and 1951.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
TSATSKE

   Why is anyone still using OED dates for something we've antedated here?
   DARE asked about the term and I discussed "Tsatske" on 15 March 2000,
about four years ago.  I discussed 1921, 1931, 1935 amd 1949 citations.  The word
was credited as "Polish."


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar  7 21:06:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:06:23 -0800
Subject: easy/eager
In-Reply-To: <404B287B.24906.1EE1F6C@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 7, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Jim Parish wrote:

> On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>> elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04
>> Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR:
>>
>>    It's not a government with which the international community will
>> be
>> easy to deal.
> 
>
> Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"?

??

are you saying that the following is fine for you?

   It's a government with which the international community will be
uneasy to deal.

yes, some version of "neg raising" is involved here, but i can't see
that that's in any way relevant to the problem.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Mar  7 21:06:19 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:06:19 -0800
Subject: De-gaying
Message-ID: 

What a hilarious word! From the Boston Globe, March 7, 2004. Hard to check
on Google because it doesn't discriminate for hyphens.

        First, she pulled the pink triangle magnet off the refrigerator.
Then, all the lesbian-friendly books and record albums had to be hidden. She
scoured the house to remove any love notes between her mother and her
mother's girlfriend.  Just for good measure, she told her mother not to wear
her Birkenstock sandals, because, of course, everybody knew that lesbians
wore those.  As for the bathroom wallpaper festooned with women, she just
sighed.
        "You de-gay the house," said Heller, now 33.  "I was absolutely
paranoid about my friends finding out."

Benjamin Barrett


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 21:11:33 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:33 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Undergraduate=20front-cli?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?pping=20(was=20'mo=3Dhomo)?=
Message-ID: 

Some of these (if my memory is correct) are found in Richardy Semour's 
article on college slang (at Duke University) that was printed in PADS in 1966 or 
1965. Another place to look is in Connie Eble's work on American college slang.

I don't have either book with me at my present location.

In a message dated 3/6/04 1:23:41 AM, pds at VISI.COM writes:


> At 3/5/2004 02:53 PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >I had thought 'za and 'rents were relatively recent undergraduate
> >slang, but when we were discussing these as exceptions to
> >generalizations on clipping last fall, one of my undergraduate
> >students suspected, and then confirmed, that it was part of his
> >father's active usage since the latter's undergraduate days.
> 
> From my undergraduate days:
> 'za
> 'rents
> 'ner = dinner
> 'tail = cocktail
> 'hue = Goodhue (dormitory)
> and while not as common as "libe"
> 'bary = library
> 
> All with the stressed syllable clipped.
> 
> These and many other terms were collected in a lexicon that was distributed
> to freshmen (in 1966 anyway).? Entitled "Loosely Speaking", it ran to at
> least 20 mimeographed pages.? Many of the usages had died out by the time I
> got there, (I recall "hum" = all-purpose, often euphemistic, verb.? "They
> were out there humming on the lawn."? "Let's hum a za."? Beautiful, but not
> used in my time.) but I can swear that the above were all in active use
> 1966-1970.
> 
> ?? Tom Kysilko? ? ? ? Practical Data Services
> ?? pds at visi.com? ? ?? Saint Paul MN USA
> 


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 21:27:40 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:27:40 -0500
Subject: How You Played the Game (1918); Tsatske
In-Reply-To: <200403072051.i27Kp7j22851@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    On further review, the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS has 1930
> for Grantland Rice's "Alumnus Football."  Still way off.

Yes, it is way off.  Rice's poem was first published in 1908.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Mar  7 21:29:51 2004
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:29:51 -0700
Subject: Actor's Dialects
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 21:37:36 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:37:36 EST
Subject: "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" (1965)
Message-ID: 

   This is in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS under
"how you played the game."  No date is given there.
   I had posted 1967 from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED.  Paper of Record has 14 January
1967 in THE SPORTING NEWS.
   Did Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach coin it in 1965?  Or was it Leo
Durocher, with "show me a good sportsman and I'll show you an idiot"?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  Valley Independent - 4/6/1965
...by Boston Celtic CoAch Red "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you A but
it did.....pAtterns for decorAtive Accessories in one book Pillows, wAll hA
ngings, curtAins.....the job. Another GOOD touch to the SHOW wAs the presence in
the Audience of soME.....But if All this is dull there's promAnv ME tApe
recorder with one sAving point..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 06, 1965  657 k

Times Recorder - 7/30/1977
...4 77 97 73' 4 35 74'. 35'. 75's "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW you A
reAl LOSER.....Leo Durocher. There were soME GOOD winners but no GOOD LOSERs
in the plA'y..
Zanesville, Ohio Saturday, July 30, 1977  640 k

Mountain Democrat - 2/8/1982
...writer Vince LombArd once sAid, "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you A
LOSER." If he.....winning, And the other plAyers mAde fun of ME becAuse I wA
sn't A GOOD Lusk sAys And.....grAce, And soMEone who is definitely not A LOSER.
And Will Rogers, who never MEt A mAn.....trAck coAch NAtAlie RochA might.
Lusk did A GOOD job in the high jump lAst yeAr As A..
Placerville, California Monday, February 08, 1982  379 k

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 10/28/1976
...reMEmbered the Admonition, 'You SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I will SHOW you
A LOSER.' I.....school. If Ford loses, he plAns to write A book titled, "WA
shington on A DAy." letters..
Walla Walla, Washington Thursday, October 28, 1976  532 k

Chronicle Telegram - 5/3/1969
...modern students. The sign sAid, "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW You A
LOSER." IT.....go down in defeAt. "Knowinng how to be A GOOD LOSER used to be
recognized As A mArk of.....ThAt, she Added, expresses the "GOOD, old-fA
shioned wAy of sAying you know..
Elyria, Ohio Saturday, May 03, 1969  940 k

News - 9/23/1980
...he sAys A voice within him spcke: SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I will SHOW you
A LOSER. In.....sAid. know they're A tough bunch, believe ME. these GeorgiA
boys. They rr.Ay plAy.....As A result, their schools cAnnot provide A GOOD
enough educAtion to give eAch student A.....wAter temperAture, wArm moist Air. And
A GOOD circulAtion system thAt lets Air flow in..
Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 23, 1980  484 k

News Journal - 4/6/1965
...Boston Celtic CoAch Red AuerbAch "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, And I'll SHOW you
A LOSER" it did.....the job. Another GOOD touch to the SHOW wAs the presence
in the Audience of soME.....rous er RitA PAvone to "Kiddy, Kid dy Kiss ME." FrA
nce's Sylvie SPRINGFIELD, 0 (UPI.....JournAl, MAnsfield, O. TuesdAy pteAl The
SHOW By DICK DU BROW 'r HOLLYWOOD wAs 5A..
Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, April 06, 1965  697 k

Advocate - 10/30/1976
...reMEmbered the Admonition, 'You SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I will SHOW you A
LOSER.' I.....money As it hAd budgeted to spend. Surveys SHOW people Are
worried About jobs And.....sAw him Almost every dAy; he never let ME see his heA
rt. So I didn't know he wAs.....An orderly mArch to equilibrium. There is A GOOD
chAnce thAt unemployMEnt will be SHOWn..
Newark, Ohio Saturday, October 30, 1976  677 k

Color Country Spectrum - 9/29/1976
...BAy PAcker CoAch often sAid. "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And III SHOW yA A An A
thlete cAn.....14th And 15th Asked Norton. "He didn't hurt ME At All And there
were long periods when be.....hAd nothing but prAise for Norton. "He's A GOOD
fighter, cAn't tAke nuthin' AwAy from.....sports, but usuAlly there's A winner
And A LOSER. One of the most sAtisfying..
Saint George, Utah Wednesday, September 29, 1976  567 k

Kennebec Journal - 11/15/1977
...A LOSER. (Indeed, if you SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER, I'll SHOW you A LOSER.)
However, if we.....17th century EnglAnd no one could publish A book or pAper
unless he hAd submitted it to.....And chuk sAng. The following one looked GOOD And
tAsted GOOD until Fong, A mAn who is.....escApe the rigors of the injunction
is to SHOW thAt the episode he wAnts to discuss..
Augusta, Maine Tuesday, November 15, 1977  637 k

Nevada State Journal - 5/12/1975
...kids of mine Are GOOD LOSERs. SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER And I'll SHOW you A
LOSER." Person.....After the MEet thAt it felt pArticulArly GOOD to beAt Wooster.
Why? "BecAuse, let's.....the Colts' stAndArd. It is A pArticulArly GOOD
feeling to know you've beAten the best..
Reno, Nevada Monday, May 12, 1975  628 k

Frederick Post - 12/31/1999
...is the only thing" philosophy. "SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER in professionAl
Durocher sAid.....And I'll SHOW you An idiot. SHOW ME A sportsmAn, And I'll SHOW
you A.....mAde AMEricAns, blAck And white, feel GOOD About themselves.
Robinson's success led.....it virtuAlly took control of sports for GOOD or ill. On ThA
nksgiving DAy, footbAll..
Frederick, Maryland Friday, December 31, 1999  716


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
(For "show you an idiot."  I did not see this in THE SPORTING NEWS--ed.)
Sheboygan Press - 6/8/1970
...there ANd smiles when he loses, ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT." 1st Pub. June
513-6-8.....on to beat a guy in the room put it to DUROCHER. "Why won't YOU
tell ANybody how YOU.....to hit him in the head. Who wANts to lose? SHOW me AN
ybody who loves to get beat, who.....felt "How do YOU think I Leo DUROCHER
said. "I played Casey Stengel in the..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, June 08, 1970  657 k

Frederick Post - 12/31/1999
...in professional DUROCHER said, "ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT. SHOW me a
sportsmAN, ANd I.....ll SHOW YOU a player I'm looking to trade to.....fights of
his life. Vince Lombardi ANd Leo DUROCHER represented the hard edge of
sports.....winning is the only thing" philosophy. "SHOW me a good loser..
Frederick, Maryland Friday, December 31, 1999  716 k

Chronicle Telegram - 2/19/1999
...sports ANd I'll SHOW YOU AN IDIOT. SHOW me a good sportsmAN ANd I'll SHOW
YOU a.....losing. For example, baseball mANager Leo DUROCHER observed: "SHOW
me a good BLONDIE.....attract the right mate. A neighbor will SHOW gratitude
for YOUr vigilANce. SOLUTION.....22-JAN. Of course YOU deserve a raise, but YOU
have to speak up. AQUARIUS (JAN. 20-Feb..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, February 19, 1999  626 k


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 21:37:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:37:48 -0500
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <003d01c40488$0a972f00$9ea98e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

At 1:06 PM -0800 3/7/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>?What a hilarious word! From the Boston Globe, March 7, 2004. Hard to check
>on Google because it doesn't discriminate for hyphens.
>
>         First, she pulled the pink triangle magnet off the refrigerator.
>Then, all the lesbian-friendly books and record albums had to be hidden. She
>scoured the house to remove any love notes between her mother and her
>mother's girlfriend.  Just for good measure, she told her mother not to wear
>her Birkenstock sandals, because, of course, everybody knew that lesbians
>wore those.  As for the bathroom wallpaper festooned with women, she just
>sighed.
>         "You de-gay the house," said Heller, now 33.  "I was absolutely
>paranoid about my friends finding out."
>
>Benjamin Barrett

Very nice.  And I like the fact that it conforms to my (admittedly
not always reliable generalization on the use of de- as a
category-changing prefix for denominal and deadjectival privative
verbs; other attested examples are _de-stale_ (an old bagel),
_de-rice_ a child's hair.  (As opposed to the less likely innovative
verb "un-gay", "un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal
bases for these.)  Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman"
would be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were
lexically established centuries ago, when the division of labor
between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional.

Larry Horn


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 21:42:48 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:42:48 -0600
Subject: easy/eager
In-Reply-To: <200403072106.i27L6RG26497@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> are you saying that the following is fine for you?
>
>    It's a government with which the international community will be
> uneasy to deal.

Not precisely, no.

> yes, some version of "neg raising" is involved here, but i can't see
> that that's in any way relevant to the problem.

My apologies; I evidently misunderstood the problem.

Jim Parish


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar  7 21:50:07 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:50:07 EST
Subject: easy/eager
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/7/04 2:50:00 PM, jparish at SIUE.EDU writes:


> On 7 Mar 2004 at 11:21, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> > elizabeth zwicky noted the following from Robert Pastor on the 2/28/04
> > Weekend Edition Saturday on NPR:
> >
> >? ? It's not a government with which the international community will be
> > easy to deal.
> 
> 
> Could it be that "easy" is being used as an antonym for "uneasy"?
> 
> Jim Parish
> 

This makes sense to me: EASY in the sense of AT-EASE, as in "It's not a 
government with which the international community will be at ease to deal." Both 
sound better if the "with" gets displaced to the end, and if the infinitive is 
changed to a participle: 

"It's not a government which the international community will be at ease to 
deal with"
< "It's not a government which the international community will be at ease 
dealing with."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 22:28:04 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:28:04 -0500
Subject: "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" (1965)
In-Reply-To: <1db.1bcb9d9b.2d7cf020@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    I had posted 1967 from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED.  Paper of Record has 14 January
> 1967 in THE SPORTING NEWS.
>    Did Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach coin it in 1965?  Or was it Leo
> Durocher, with "show me a good sportsman and I'll show you an idiot"?

Do either Newspaperarchive or Paperofrecord have anything early for "good
and gracious loser"?  That's the wording for the earliest Knute Rockne
attribution I have.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Mar  7 22:33:24 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:33:24 -0800
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <200403072138.i27Lc68I012529@mxu4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>
>Very nice.  And I like the fact that it conforms to my
>(admittedly not always reliable generalization on the use of
>de- as a category-changing prefix for denominal and
>deadjectival privative verbs; other attested examples are
>_de-stale_ (an old bagel), _de-rice_ a child's hair.  (As
>opposed to the less likely innovative verb "un-gay",
>"un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal bases for
>these.)  Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman" would
>be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were
>lexically established centuries ago, when the division of
>labor between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional.
>
>Larry Horn
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar  7 23:27:38 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:27:38 -0500
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <005a01c40494$38506400$9ea98e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

>?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB

For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a lexicalized
version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of.

>  >-----Original Message-----
>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>>
>>Very nice.  And I like the fact that it conforms to my
>>(admittedly not always reliable generalization on the use of
>>de- as a category-changing prefix for denominal and
>>deadjectival privative verbs; other attested examples are
>>_de-stale_ (an old bagel), _de-rice_ a child's hair.  (As
>>opposed to the less likely innovative verb "un-gay",
>>"un-stale", "un-rice", given the absence of verbal bases for
>>these.)  Yes, the verbs "unnerve", "unsex", and "unman" would
>>be counterexamples to the generalization, but they were
>>lexically established centuries ago, when the division of
>>labor between un-verbs and de-verbs was not yet functional.
>>
>>Larry Horn
>>


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Mar  7 23:34:17 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:34:17 -0800
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <200403072327.i27NRcYL015668@mxu7.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

Ahh...Never having done that, I didn't know there was an innovative form. I
agree delouse is correct (or at least far better than) delice, though I've
often wondered if singulars like louse and bacterium are going to die out.
BB

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn

>
>>?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB
>
>For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a
>lexicalized version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 00:42:51 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:42:51 -0500
Subject: Antedatings of Terminate, Termination, Prejudice (Euphemisms)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The following citation antedates _terminate_ (OED, v. 4.c. (b), 1972) and
_prejudice_ (OED, n. 1.c., 1972):

1969 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Aug. 2  His [Chu Ven Thai Khac's] status as a double
agent was reportedly confirmed by the Central Intelligence Agency, which
... suggested that he either be isolated or "terminated with extreme
prejudice."


This citation antedates _termination_ (OED, 3.f., 1975):

1969 _N.Y. Times_ 1 Oct. 46  According to The Times, Khac is a victim of
termination with extreme prejudice.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 00:43:01 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:43:01 -0500
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <006c01c4049c$b6709fa0$9ea98e8c@PASCO>
Message-ID: 

At 3:34 PM -0800 3/7/04, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>?Ahh...Never having done that, I didn't know there was an innovative form. I
>agree delouse is correct (or at least far better than) delice, though I've
>often wondered if singulars like louse and bacterium are going to die out.
>BB

Could be, although I think the causes will be different.  In the
former, the pressure is homonymy/polysemy avoidance based on the more
frequent slang extension of  "louse", sort of the way "bitch" has
been displaced for female dogs, although the taboo avoidance in the
"bitch" case is obviously a stronger force.  With "bacteria", I think
it's the same process by which "alumni" and "criteria" being
reinterpreted as singulars, displacing the original Classical
singular.

As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the
object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same
daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice
distribution for quite some time.

larry horn

>  >-----Original Message-----
>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>>On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>
>>
>>>?Delice or derice a child's hair?...BB
>>
>>For me, the former is only "de-louse", and that's a
>>lexicalized version of what "de-rice" is an innovative version of.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 00:46:54 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:46:54 -0500
Subject: Ambulance Chaser (1896)
In-Reply-To: <2DBE5DD0.4BDE3B7A.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496,
> I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken."

I can't even find it in 1895.  Good job, Barry!

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  8 01:13:46 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:13:46 -0500
Subject: "Candy from a baby"(1900)
Message-ID: 

   I'm back with the NYU databases.  It appears that this phrase comes from New York City.
   Don't take "candy" from "Baby Ruth."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1. THE VARIAG'S FAST SPEED.; New Russian Cruiser Succeeds in Making 23 1/4 Knots.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 6, 1900. p. 2 (1 page):
    Ex-Sheriff William J. Buttling of Brooklyn has something like $4,000 outstanding in bets that the Republicans will be victorious this Fall in the State and Nation.  Mr. Buttling is looked upon as one of the shrewdest bettors in Kings County.  He has wagered, for one thing, that McKinley will carry that county.
    "These bets have been forced upon me," said the big ex-Sheriff, a day or two ago.  "It makes me sad to have to bet this Fall.  It's like taking candy from a baby. ..."

   2. THE DISINFECTION OF CROKER.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 19, 1900. p. 6 (1 page):
   But it would have been quite another thing to send actual money down to Wall Street to become the prey of the first bettor who had chosen to acquire it, and who would have felt in taking it, according to the picturesque expression of the Sheriff of Kings, that he was "taking candy from a baby."


   There's nothing in the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, but there is this nice article on "Brooklyn's Sweet Tooth" that's worth reading.

   12 July 1891, BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, pg 19:
   She picks up a candy baby, looking white and pretty, and by a hasty immersion transforms it into a chocolate infant and lays it on its back to dry.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Mar  8 02:37:27 2004
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:37:27 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> I am interested in the way actors learn an accent for a part in a
> movie or play.

This is strictly anecdotal. As the webmaster for the ADS site, I get a
lot of queries from actors and directors, usually for stage plays,
wanting to know of dialect resources. Over the years, I've done a bit
of digging around so I can offer some ideas when the question arises.

In smaller productions, it seems like the usual method is to listen to
many sound samples by different speakers of the accent needed, and then
imitate them. One British correspondent was doing a production set in
the Catskills, and was looking for some New York accents, working under
the assumption that a New York City accent was close enough. Instead, I
sent her to a list of streaming talk radio stations for upstate New
York (in my definition, beyond bedroom-community distance from NYC),
and recommended she take a long listen to some of those Great
Lakes-area vowels. I think the play concerned the Borscht Belt, so I
recommended Jackie Mason as a guide for how the Jewish New Yorkers from
the Fifties who were taking a holiday away from the city might sound
(only less profane than Mason); I thought she could probably find his
recorded routines in the UK. She said it helped. I dunno.

In some cases, particularly when doing historical accents, the
recommendation that they concentrate on word choice and sentence
structure by studying texts of the period has been well-received, as
long as they understand that people then, as now, don't write exactly
as they speak. Last year someone who was acting in a Lewis and Clark
reenactment said he found my suggestion to study Clark's journals
useful. Clark was an awful speller, tending to write some words
phonetically, giving at least small hints as to how he might have
pronounced certain words. This can also help prevent anachronisms, and
let an actor who is going to have to wing it all day in Ye Olde Village
kind of tourist setting develop some stock phrases and have some
old-timey current events for context (crops, wars, elections, etc.).

I get the impression, however, that it is more common for the smaller
productions just to do a "different" accent. You could make Clark sound
like a modern West Virginian with a bit of television British English
thrown in and most American spectators wouldn't be the wiser.

Larger productions--which never send me such questions--hire voice
coaches and may spend weeks having the actors learn the accents. Actors
I know, however, claim too many of these coaches are hacks who do
ridiculous things such as teach one broad Southern accent, which is I
guess why you tend to get characters supposedly from Texas sounding
like they're from Alabama and vice versa. The women apparently are
often taught just one of two Southern accents: either the
sugar-pie-bless-your-heart or the ah-do-declare. The better actors
spend longer and do more to learn, of course, and may work with several
coaches: one for voice (tone, range, projection), one for
accent/dialect (pronunciation, cadence, even going to far as to make
script suggestions if the coach feels the character would "never say
that"), and another for line delivery (emphasis, emotion).

Stuff I've read elsewhere suggests that Nicole Kidman is a bit of an
accent Zelig, but like acting, not everyone has that ability (or the
motivation, time, or money), so actors and producers and directors
often rely on audience forgiveness, innocence, or ignorance. I heard a
woman on the television show Alias a while back doing a horrific
British accent. It was so cringe-worthy, I could only assume that she
would be unmasked as a mole in a future episode.

I have been told by actors that most of the tapes and books which
profess to teach accents and dialects are only good as a starting
point, and several people have told me they're not really worth the
money. I don't know; I've never used them or heard them. One person
said that finding any role model who has the desired accent, and then
imitating as much of the *person* as possible, within the boundaries of
the current role, is more useful. Again, I dunno.

This doesn't exactly answer your questions, but that's what I have, for
what it's worth. There are probably people on this list who know actual
facts about this, instead of stories, but I'll leave it to them to
speak up.

To close, here is an interesting discussion of language and accent use
in movies, and how badly they are done, with some excellent links
included.

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001053.php

Here are some of the sample sets I often refer people to:

British dialects
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/

North American dialects
http://www.ukans.edu/~idea/northamerica.html

Speech Language Archive, many languages
http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/

Slave narratives
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/vfshtml/

Master page of American English samples
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/samples.html

Cheers,

Grant


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  8 02:56:34 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:56:34 -0500
Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria
Message-ID: 

WINE COOLER

   I was asked by an OUP-type person to do "wine cooler" ASAP:

What's the first reference you can find for "wine-cooler," meaning a beverage composed of white wine and fruit (as opposed to a device for cooling wine), and what's the first reference to "sangria" in the United States (as opposed to references to sangria in other countries).


   OED has "wine cooler, a vessel in which bottles of wine can be immersed in ice or iced liquid," from 1815.


   In 2000, I had posted this:

TAVERN WEEKLY NEWS

    Here's a roundup of some of the many "THE BARMAN'S CORNER, by Patrick Murphy" columns in the TAVERN WEEKLY NEWS (also TAVERN NEWS when some issues were bi-weekly).  The NYPL gets the Illinois edition.  I have no idea about other editions, which may be different.
(...)
23 June 1938, pg. 10:
COOLING WINE DRINKS FOR SUMMER
(Raspberry Sauterne Punch, Peach Punch, California Punch, Pink Lady, Orange Cooler, White Wine Punch, Claret Grenadine Punch, Claret Punch, Raspberry Port Punch, Burgundy Pineapple Punch, Claret Party Punch, Burgundy Orangeade, Burgundy Flip, Port Wine Flip, Sherry Eggnog, Wine Cobbler, Monterey Mint Cooler, Champagne Cocktail, Chin-Chin Champagne Cocktail, Champagne Punch, Gloria Wine Julep--ed.)

30 June 1938, pg. 8:
COOLING WINE DRINKS FOR SUMMER
Introducing Wine Coolers
(Burgundy Mint Julep, Tea Punch, Peach Bowle, Wine Lemonade, Wine Cooler, Wine Sherbet Cooler, Pineapple Bowle, Sherry Eggnog, Port Wine Flip, Muscatel Gingeree, WIne Cobbler, Port Cobbler, Burgundy Flip, Monterey Mint Cooler, Champagne Cocktail, Gloria Wine Julep--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(NY Times & LA Times)("Wine cooler" + "Fruit")
Wine Coolers Ideal for 'Open House'
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 18, 1937. p. D15 (1 page):
   Wine coolers combine the tang and freshness of fragrant fruits with the bouquet and aroma or delicious wines.  THey are ideal beverages for an "open house." (...)
      PORT COBBLER
      (Individual Service)
   Place one cup California port in tall glass two-thirds filled with crushed ice.  Add six melon balls, or seeded grapes, or fruits in season.

COOL WINE DRINKS BEAT SUMMER HEAT
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 10, 1951. p. B2 (1 page):
   Wine coolers fill the wide gap between soft and hard drinks for summer refreshments.  Fruit-flavored sodas, such as lime, lemon, grapefruit or cherry, combine with wine and ice cubes to make some of summer's choice coolers.  They are simply prepared by filling half a tall glass with a favorite wine, red or white, adding two or three ice cubes and filling the glass with a favorite fruit-flavored soda.

   Display Ad 35 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 6, 1966. p. 9 (1 page):
   We'll quench your thirst at dinner with a refreshing red wine cooler, or white wine spritzer.
(Longchamp's restaurants--ed.)

   Late-Hour Experiment Draws Few to Metropolitan Museum
By RICHARD F. SHEPARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 31, 1967. p. 40 (1 page):
   The drinks were beer, wine and a drink called sangria, made from wine, seltzer, vodka and fruit, quite similar to the wine cooler known as a Spritzer.

   '83 wine sales: imports and bubblies still surge.
Frank J. Prial. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 11, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages)
First page:   One of the significant developments of 1983 was the growth of wine coolers, a product that most consumers in the New York area have not tasted.  Wine coolers, a mixture of fruit juice, wine and soda water, sprang into prominence seemingly overnight in the parts of the country, mostly the West and the South, where they have been introduced.  Last year almost 34 million gallons entered distribution channels, an 18.5 percent rise over 1982.  The increase was particularly impressive because the coolers are in a category of wines known as "special natural" that has been dropping steadily for almost a decade.

   Measure Would Let Grocery Stores Sell a Wine Beverage
Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 29, 1984. p. B2 (1 page):
   Under the bill, only wine made from grapes grown in the state could be used in the beverage, called a wine cooler.  The provision is designed to increase sagging sales among the state's 75 grape growers and vintners, according to Timothy J. Russert, counselor to the Governor.
   Wine coolers--a carbonated mixture of wine, fruit juice, water and sugar--would join beer as the only alcoholic beverages that could be sold legally in New York food stores if the bill becomes law.
   The sale of wine coolers is already permitted in licensed liquor stores, taverns and restaurants, where they have been available for about the last three months.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post; notice the gap here and the "California" ad in 1957)
 Display Ad 56 -- No Title
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 14, 1957. p. C18 (1 page):
   ENJOY a Wine Cooler, like this. Or a Sherry-on-the-Rocks.  At your parties, serve a Wine Punch made of California Sauterne, Burgundy, Port, or pink Rose.
ALWAYS ASK FOR
  the Wines of California
WINE ADVISORY BOARD

   Display Ad 9 -- No Title
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 4, 1970. p. A4 (1 page):
   FRUIT WINE COOLERS
   YOUR CHOICE
   69c
1/5 APPLE
1/5 ORANGE
1/5 PEACH
1/5 LIME
FULL QT. PINEAPPLE
   SERVE ICE COLD

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal, first citation)
Adolph Coors Co. to Test Wine Cooler Market Entry
By a WALL STREET JOURNAL Staff Reporter. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1985. p. 10 (1 page)

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark THE CITRUS AND WHITE WINE COOLER CALIFORNIA COOLER NATURAL FRUIT PARTICLES RETAINED
Goods and Services IC 033. US 047. G & S: White Wine and Fruit Juice Cocktail. FIRST USE: 19810708. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810814
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 200310 260907 260921 261121 261709
Serial Number 73448107
Filing Date October 14, 1983
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition July 9, 1985
Registration Number 1438276
Registration Date April 28, 1987
Owner (REGISTRANT) BROWN-FORMAN CORPORATION CORPORATION TENNESSEE 850 DIXIE HWY. LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 402101091
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record MICHAEL S. WALSH
Prior Registrations 1268425
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "THE CITRUS AND WHITE WINE COOLER" AND "NATURAL FRUIT PARTICLES RETAINED" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark THE DRAWING CONTAINS LINING FOR THE COLORS GREEN AND GOLD, BUT NO CLAIM IS MADE TO COLOR.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Cancellation Date January 7, 1988
Distinctiveness Limitation Statement AS TO THE WORDS "CALIFORNIA COOLER".

Word Mark CALIFORNIA COOLER
Goods and Services IC 033. US 047. G & S: Prepared Alcoholic Cocktail, Consisting of White Wine and Natural Fruit Juices. FIRST USE: 19810814. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810910
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 73335938
Filing Date November 6, 1981
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition February 21, 1984
Supplemental Register Date September 8, 1983
Registration Number 1268425
Registration Date February 21, 1984
Owner (REGISTRANT) ISLAND WINE COOLER COMPANY LIMITED PARTNERSHIP CALIFORNIA 6161 E. HWY. 12 LODI CALIFORNIA 95240
(LAST LISTED OWNER) BROWN-FORMAN CORPORATION CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 2001 HOWARD ST. LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 402011080
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record MICHAEL S. WALSH
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register SUPPLEMENTAL
Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

---------------------------------------------------------------
SANGRIA

   I have some "Sangria" posts in the ADS-L archives, perhaps relevant.

(OED)
[a. Sp. sangr?a (see SANGAREE).]
    A cold drink of Spanish origin composed of red wine variously diluted and sweetened.
  1961 ?J. WELCOME? Beware of Midnight x. 119 Hugo ordered a dry Martini for himself and a jug of Sangria for the others..?It's a sort of Spanish Pimms.? 1966 House & Garden Dec. 79/3 Visitors to Spain soon become familiar with sangr?athe national iced wine cup. The simplest form consists of slices of fruit..soaked in a rough Spanish red wine and with a little water..and ice added. 1972 D. LEES Zodiac 107, I ordered a pitcher of sangria to go with the couscous. 1978 Times 23 Apr. 12/8 There was time for a glass of the house Sangria (a sweet wine tasting of Cherry~ade).


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post)
   Old Seville Is Mucho Formidable
By Horace Sutton. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 20, 1958. p. F19 (1 page):
   In his ginmill, which serves United States cokes or sangria, a red wine seasoned with sugar and lemons, there is room for 400 spectators who sit in an ampitheater under a canopy of paper flowers.

   WEST INDIAN FAVORITES; SANGRIA CARIBBEAN RICE CASSEROLE OF BACALAO PEACHES JAMAICA
By AMY ALDEN. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Mar 8, 1959. p. AW16 (1 page):
      SANGRIA
   (MAKES 1 QUART--6 PORTIONS)
1/2 cup fresh lime juice
1/3 cup granulated sugar
1 cup cold water
2 cups chilled red table wine
   Ice cubes
Stir lime juice, sugar and water together until sugar is dissolved.  Add wine and pour over ice cubes in tall glasses to serve.

   One-Man Show Minus One
By Rosanna Groarke. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 6, 1960. p. D1 (1 page):
   _Sangria_, a cold Spanish wine cup, was served to guests as they strolled through the galleries hung with works from all the Picasso periods.

   Brass Polishing Won't Open Doors for Her; CLEANING CLOTHS CHRISTMAS QUERY REGIMENTATION RECIPE REQUEST
Anne's Reader Exchange. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 12, 1964. p. C6 (1 page) :
   DOES ANYONE have a recipe for Sangria, a Spanish style punch made with red wine, soda, lemon juice and various fruits?

   Sun and Sangria Make Picnic Fun
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 4, 1966. p. B7 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
   Latin-American Zest on Midtown Menu
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 9, 1960. p. 35 (1 page):
   Lastly, the management recommends a drink known as Sangria, which is really a wine punch made with citrus juices, Chilean wine and soda.  It is undoubtedly authentic but it would be more suited to warmer climates.
(The La Fonda del Sol restaurant--ed.)

   A TASTE OF THINGS TO COME; Knowledge of What Dishes to Select Will Brighten a Trip By Making One Into a Gourmet Native to Everywhere
By MYRA WALDO. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 26, 1961. p. XX29 (1 page):
   First, some grilled swordfish on skewers, or _kinch shishte_, then some slices from the _doerner kebab_, which is lamb roasted vertically in a large piece, so that the fat drips away.  (Turkey.  A search for "donor kebab" would miss this--ed.)
(...)
   With all of this, one drinks a _sangria_, the delicious wine punch of the nation (Spain--ed.).

   Diplomat's Wife Leads Three Lives; Madame Heisbourg Is Official Hostess in Three Countries Her Clothes Plans Are Tailored to Nation She Is Visiting
By CHARLOTTE CURTIS Special to The New York Times.WASHINGTON.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 27, 1961. p. 26 (1 page):
   "And in Mexico, I like to have pompano and sangria (a combination of wine with orange juice, lemon juice and soda). ..."

   Display Ad 2 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 19, 1963. p. 2 (1 page):
   Well, maybe a pitcher of Sangria (wine pucnh).
(La Fonda del Sol, 123 West 50th Street--ed.)

A Drink Low in Spirits Can Raise the Spirits; Cooling Beverages for Late Summer Are Offered
By NAN ICKERINGILL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 20, 1964. p. 32 (1 page):
      SANGRIA
   THis Spanish drink is proving as popular at the current World's Fair as iced tea did at a previous one.  This recipe is for sangria as served at the Hilton Cafe International atop the Better Living building:
   Place 10 ice cubes in a one-and-one-half-quart glass pitcher.  Peel an orange and add the peel in one piece, plus the orange, sliced.  Do the same with a lemon.  Add one-half bottle of good Spanish or Chilean red wine and one pint club soda.  Add a dash or brandy and, if desired, a dash of Triple Sec.  Stir well and serve immediately.  Makes four servings.

The Spanish Pavilion: A Restaurant Among the Most Beautiful in Manhattan
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1966. p. 77 (1 page):
   Speaking of beverages, a favorite drink at the restaurant appears to be the sangria.  It is made there with red Spanish wine, ice, fruits, Spanish brandy, a touch of Cointreau and a small bottle of club soda.

   Gold Coast Gastronomy; Yucas and Malangas Many Foreign Kitchens Pompano Popular Tantalizing Litchi A Tasty Fruit
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 5, 1967. p. XX3 (1 page):
   Cubans also have popularized _sangria_, a wine p[unch, as an aperitif.

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark SANGRIA DE TORO
Translations THE WORD "SANGRIA" MEANS "A RED WINE WITH CITRUS FRUIT JUICE" OR SIMPLY "WINE PUNCH." THE WORDING "DE TORO" MEANS "OF THE BULL."
Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 033. US 047. G & S: RED WINE WITH CITRUS FRUIT JUICE ADDED. FIRST USE: 19670215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19670215
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72330022
Filing Date June 13, 1969
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0949971
Registration Date January 2, 1973
Owner (REGISTRANT) TORRES, MIGUEL UNKNOWN VILLAFRANCA DEL PANADES SPAIN
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0773309
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE WORD "SANGRIA" APART FROM THE MARK.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Mar  8 03:19:58 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:19:58 -0500
Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: 

[[    I was asked by an OUP-type person to do "wine cooler" ASAP:

 What's the first reference you can find for "wine-cooler," meaning a
beverage composed of white wine and fruit (as opposed to a device for
cooling wine), and what's the first reference to "sangria" in the United
States (as opposed to references to sangria in other countries).

 SANGRIA

    I have some "Sangria" posts in the ADS-L archives, perhaps relevant.]]

Barry,
You posted the following in ADS

<>

Also, there is a Newpaperarchive hit for sangria in 1951. ("...sangria,
which is a mixture of red wine and fruit juices.")  This was penned by a
columnist in Spain.

SC

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar  8 04:13:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:13:29 -0500
Subject: Wine Cooler; Sangria
In-Reply-To: <000b01c404bc$3cf5f010$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

I find this "sangri'a" on-line in the 1803 dictionary of the RAE (Spanish
Royal Academy) (but not in the 1791 edition nor earlier editions).

<>

I don't see why it couldn't have arisen from "sangri'a" = "bleeding" (old
medical procedure).

The RAE dictionary may have been rather conservative, I think, and perhaps
this "sangri'a" was conventional in Spanish much earlier (just
speculation). 1803 is still 67 years after the earliest OED citation
(assuming that "sangre" in 1736 was truly continuous with the later
"sangaree" etc.).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  8 04:41:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:41:21 -0500
Subject: Thumbprint Cookies (1950); Sangria (1951); Wine Cooler & Adult
 Soda Pop
Message-ID: 

THUMBPRINT COOKIES

   I was in my local Food Emporium (under the 59th Street Bridge) and it was crazy on Sunday.  "Thumbprint cookies" were sold there.  I'd posted "thumbprints" from 1963, but this is earlier.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Dixon Evening Telegraph - 11/30/1950
...in half moon shape. Frosts 60 COOKIES. THUMBPRINT COOKIES fi cup shortening I cup.....rack. Place a bit of melted red jelly in THUMBPRINT. Makes about 2 doz. Dutch COOKIES.....spatula: cool on cake rack. Makes about 60 COOKIES. Chocolate Topping. Melt 1 pkg. semi..
Dixon, Illinois   Thursday, November 30, 1950  497 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 11/30/1950
...in half moon shape. Frosts 60 COOKIES. THUMBPRINT COOKIES Vi cup shortening 1 cup.....spatula; cool on cake rackMakes about 60 COOKIES. Chocolate Topping. Melt 1 pkg. semi.....jelly in THUMBPRINTMakes about 2 doz. Dutch COOKIES 6 tablesp. shortening '.4 cup..
Dixon, Illinois   Thursday, November 30, 1950  419 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 12/21/1959
...for a plum. That's why they are called "THUMBPRINT" COOKIES. Preheat oven to 300.....and 'stars. These she draws first Christmas COOKIES Christmas Wreath COOKIES are made by.....Punch. FOOD STORES TL L M. f i Thumbprmt COOKIES Holiday Suggestion When you take out.....Schmldt Photo Eight Tiers of Decorated star COOKIES make a most attractive holiday..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Monday, December 21, 1959  723 k

Sheboygan Press - 12/15/1955
...and cut into bars. Sirs. Henry J. Meyer. THUMBPRINT COOKIES Mrs. Henry J. Meyer, who.....15 minutes. Mrs. 3 Fred Kummer. Gum Drop COOKIES (Yield: 40 COOKIES) cup shortening.....accompanied with the serving of Christinas COOKIES. There are innumerable varieties of.....there, submitted favorite recipes for COOKIES from among their large collections..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin   Thursday, December 15, 1955  679 k

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 12/6/1956
...to cool. Chocolate will melt from heat of COOKIES and keep filberts in place. Makes 24.....cloth until ready to use. Chocolate Filbert THUMBPRINTS Use cup butter or margarine, cup.....To Christmas Feasting Gaily Decorated COOKIES, Pastries Are Fine Gifts HOLIDAY Part.....with the preparation of colorful, delicious COOKIES, many of them cut in the shapes of..
Walla Walla, Washington   Thursday, December 06, 1956  726 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
SANGRIA

   Yes, the post was getting a little long, so I thought I'd send the ProQuest stuff and do the Newspaperarchive stuff separately, after a break.  Sam beat me to it.  You can't rest for a second with these guys.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Valley News - 10/4/1960
...pictured Argentinian dish, -accompanied by SANGRIA. a wine punch. The sun motif in the..
Van Nuys, California   Tuesday, October 04, 1960  894 k

Berkshire Eagle - 8/1/1959
...aturing all you can eat for only Appetizers SANGRIA (Spanish wine Shrimp Cocktail, Fruit.....a Club selection. He is working on a new book, which started out as a, short novel.....nor seem a large percentage, bur, writing a book is a long-term project and more..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Saturday, August 01, 1959  1032 k
Pg. 7A, col. 6 ad:
      Appetizers
Sangria (Spanish wine punch),...

Nevada State Journal - 9/16/1951
...as on pool tables, rushed the food and the SANGRIA, which is a mixture of red wine and.....Quentin Keybut j nolds on page 207 of his book Octopus is considered a delicacy in many..
Reno, Nevada   Sunday, September 16, 1951  751 k
Pg. 4, col. 6:
(Arenas de San Pedro, Spain--ed.)
   Senoritas in embroidered fall skirts, as on pool tables, rushed the food and the sangria, which is a mixture of red wine and fruit juices.

Reno Evening Gazette - 5/28/1954
...avoided me for days after. We ordered a SANGRIA a wine and fruit juice mixture. The.....with publicity flare that consumption of book-type matches has reached something..
Reno, Nevada   Friday, May 28, 1954  709 k
Pg. 4, col. 6:
(From Lisbon--ed.)
   We ordered a sangria--a wine and fruit juice mixture.

Traverse City Record Eagle - 9/17/1951
...as on pool tables, rushed the food and the SANGRIA, which is a mixture of red wine and..
Traverse City, Michigan   Monday, September 17, 1951  617 k

Mansfield News Journal - 9/20/1951
...felt skirts, as on pool tables, rushed he SANGRIA, of red seems worth the effort. It is.....ance. For many years the fly leaf of every book in the English collection of the Bombay.....contained a notice which read, treat this book as if it was your own. Trustees of the..
Mansfield, Ohio   Thursday, September 20, 1951  788 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
WINE COOLER & ADULT SODA POP

   Some citations.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 6/21/1945
...in ZESM ITS REFRESHING DEJECTED? Try a WINE "COOLER" Tired AND hot after a hard day.....Add charged water, sugar AND garnish with FRUIT slices. Atk for At fi> Llqnr COUNCIL.....office? We the perfect refresher. Enjoy a WINE "COOLER" before, -with, or after meals.....Pacific islANDs have to contend. DRINK WINE ITS HEALTHFUL..
Council Bluffs, Iowa   Thursday, June 21, 1945  541 k

Vallejo Times Herald - 7/31/1974
...spears AND maraschino cherries. FRUITED WINE COOLER (Serves 4) cup sliced hulled.....AND banana slicesMakes 8 to 1C small tarts. FRUIT-WINE REFRESHER (Makes about 10 servings.....saving accompaniment to the FRUITy Rose' COOLER is tiny FRUIT Tartlettes. A package of.....Have all ingredients well chilled. Combine WINE with FRUIT juices. Pour over ice cubes..
Vallejo, California   Wednesday, July 31, 1974  1207 k

Humboldt Standard - 7/10/1952
...peel over drink for oil. Cool off with WINE COOLER Pour 2 oz. fine WINE into highball.....because Certo is a liquid natural FRUIT pectin product More real, fresh-FRUIT.....of 1519 'South 12th St., Tacoma, Wash.; AND son-in-law of Mr. AND Mrs. D. R. Lewis of.....at the Naval Air Facility with his wife AND their two daughters, Carol AND Christine..
Eureka, California   Thursday, July 10, 1952  606 k

Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 7/6/1950
...BUY'SUNNYBANK at SAFEWAY DRINK TRY THIS WINE COOLER' Just stir together 2 cups of.....are homegrown, too. Majority of, the fresh FRUIT. is: coming from California. cantaloupe.....Betty Ann Port WINE, 2 cups orange juice, cup lemon juice.....is probably the uest bargain on. the FRUIT counter. It, is topnotch quality..
Council Bluffs, Iowa   Thursday, July 06, 1950  583 k

Newport Daily News - 6/25/1951
...Tom Colllni, Gnrdenfreih Mint Julep or WINE COOLER. THE EMBASSY "Where Good People.....Union Pacific United Aircraft United FRUIT U. S. Rubber U. S. Steel Western Union.....AND less humid this afternoon. Fair AND COOLER tonight AND Tuesday. Gusty northwest.....for Boston AND vicinity Windy fair turning COOLER AND becoming less humid this afternoon..
Newport, Rhode Island   Monday, June 25, 1951  712 k


(FACTIVA)
Soda Pop for Adults Only
LARRY WALKER
701 words
24 July 1985
The San Francisco Chronicle
FINAL
16

According to marketing analysis reports, if you are an aging member of the Pepsi Generation (late 20s, most likely a woman, turning a bit yuppie around the edges), you probably are about to try one of the hottest new consumer products in years - the wine cooler.

If, on the other hand, you are in your early 20s, a member of a racial or ethnic minority and a male, marketing nabobs say you're already a confirmed cooler drinker. Or you may be in your late 40s or early 50s, male or female, a jogger or tennis player, trying to cut down a bit on the hard stuff and looking for something with a refreshing taste. If so, you're probably reaching for a wine cooler right now.

No wonder the numbers look so good on this astonishingly popular product. Wine cooler sales went from zero in 1980 to over 12 million cases in 1984. Coolers accounted for over 20 percent of all California wine shipments last July; this year the percentage is predicted to be even higher.

Giants E.& J. Gallo and Joseph Seagram & Sons have come out with coolers, and advertising spent on the three major brands - California Cooler, Bartles & Jaymes (Gallo) and Seagram Cooler - easily will top $25 million this year.

Cooler scoffers say the drink, a simple blend of wine, fruit juice, fruit flavorings and carbonated water, is a flash-in-the-pan, like the pop wines of the late '60s and early '70s (honk if you remember Annie Greensprings). I don't think this is true, for at least a couple of reasons. The coolers taste better than the pop wines (which still are selling very well, thank you, in places like Joplin, Missouri, and Duluth, Minnesota). They're much more refreshing and, generally speaking, not as sweet. Also, the lower alcohol content (ranging from about 4 to 7 percent) appeals to the health-conscious crowd.
(...)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  8 05:01:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:01:22 -0500
Subject: NY Times cartoonist Dargan
Message-ID: 

NEW YORK TIMES CARTOONIST DARGAN
("Hot Dog," continued)

   So bad it's funny.
   First, it's Dorgan, not Dargan.
   Second, as everyone knows, the NEW YORK TIMES doesn't run cartoons!
   Once!  Mention my name once, ever?

(FACTIVA)
Food
Tip of the day
Sara Perks
The Hamilton Spectator
267 words
23 February 2004
The Hamilton Spectator
Final
G05
English
Copyright (c) 2004 The Hamilton Spectator.

Food facts and fun stuff

The hot dog was given its name by a cartoonist, says Douglas B. Smith in his book Ever Wonder Why? The story starts with a Frankfurt butcher who named the long frankurter sausage a "dachshund sausage" after his dog. Then in the U.S., in 1871, German butcher Charles Feltman opened a stand in Coney Island, selling dachshund sausages.

In 1901, New York Times cartoonist T.A. Dargan noticed one sausage vendor used buns to handle the hot sausages after he burnt his fingers, and Dargan decided to illustrate the incident. He wasn't sure of the spelling of dachshund and simply called it "hot dog."


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  8 05:56:33 2004
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:56:33 -0700
Subject: Actor's Dialects
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar  8 06:40:43 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:40:43 -0500
Subject: Rockefeller Gesture; Reverse McCarthyism; Bleeding Heart; Beltway
 Bandit
Message-ID: 

  Some more stuff, but not for an OED-type person.
  I gotta go to sleep now.

---------------------------------------------------------------
ROCKEFELLER GESTURE (6 January 1986)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Carter in Playboy
By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1976. p. 41 (1 page):
   The Washington newspapers gleefully front-paged the use of the hitherto taboo word just as they published the picture of Mr. Rockefeller's breakthrough middle-fingering.

---------------------------------------------------------------
REVERSE McCARTHYISM (March 1975)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   McCarthy Helps Dems Club GOP
By Herb Heft Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 24, 1954. p. 25 (1 page):
   Rep. W. M. (Schine Ball) Wheeler pitched a no-hitter against the Do-Nothing Republicans.  And you might say that the Democrats applied some reverse McCarthyism to pull this game out.

Inside Report; Danger From the Left
By Rowland Evans and Robert Novak. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 18, 1965. p. A25 (1 page):
   In a kind of reverse McCarthyism, moderate Negro leaders, white liberals, and government officials have feared to point out the degree of Communist infiltration.

   Barry Tells Britons of New Threat
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Oct 26, 1966. p. A4 (1 page)

   Scott Calls Attack on FBI Reverse McCarthyism
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 12, 1971. p. A21 (1 page)

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 3/18/1965
...in the civil rights movement. In a kind of REVERSE MCCARTHYISM moderate Negro leaders.....himself. Reynolds had just completed one book and was at work on another when he dtod.....Lmversity. When he was war hero and wrote a book graduated in 1924, he had deabout him..
Elyria, Ohio   Thursday, March 18, 1965  705 k

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 10/27/1970
...is practicing something very close to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....Brien Close to Practicing 'AAcCarthyism' in REVERSE WASHINGTON In imputing, in a back.....door way, a politics of MCCARTHYISM to the Republicans, Democratic.....not their motives, into question. The real MCCARTHYISM was a thousand miles away from..
Walla Walla, Washington   Tuesday, October 27, 1970  783 k

Advocate - 11/4/1970
...is practicing something very dose to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....of the ofl's. critizicing the horrors of MCCARTHYISM. The English don't fool around.....said has been taken of conlrxJ. The real MCCARTHYISM was a Ihousand nulos away from.....of Joseph McCarthy and the dangers of MCCARTHYISM and a ionp lime before today's..
Newark, Ohio   Wednesday, November 04, 1970  644 k

Chronicle Telegram - 12/17/1966
...of room for unity among all Republicans. REVERSE MCCARTHYISM is subtle form of.....space treaty. By its insidious nature, REVERSE-MCCARTHYISM presents us with.....for the commonwealth. Can it be said that REVERSE-McCartbyism has Strike upsets Pacific.....on which has been worse for the U.S.A. MCCARTHYISM, in its popular meaning; or..
Elyria, Ohio   Saturday, December 17, 1966  820 k

Chronicle Telegram - 10/27/1970
...is praticing something very close to a REVERSE MCCARTHYISM of his own. O'Brien's end.....imputing, in a backdoor way. a politics of MCCARTHYISM to the Republicans. Democratic.....not their motives, into question. The real MCCARTHYISM was a thousand miles away from.....of Joseph McCarthy and the dangers of MCCARTHYISM and a long time before today's..
Elyria, Ohio   Tuesday, October 27, 1970  654 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
(VAST) RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY (1991)

(NATION DIGITAL ARCHIVE)
   20 June 1966, NATION, pg. 742:
   ...an all too easy assumption is that Oswald may have been a pawn in some devious right-wing conspiracy.

(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
TAYLOR HACKFORD: NO, 'WHITE NIGHTS' IS NOT 'RAMBO' IN TIGHTS:[FINAL EDITION, C]
Julia Cameron. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.:  Nov 17, 1985.  pg. 4
(...)
The reporters aren't buying. They have been muttering to each other all day, "Rambo in tights." They are looking at a trend. It's a right-wing conspiracy theory, they say, with Hollywood as co-conspirator: "Rambo," "Commando" and now "White Nights." They try to impress the significance of this on Hackford. He listens, but to him the evidence is circumstantial. He was there. He knows what he was driving at, and it wasn't "Rambo" in tights.


 The Bitter Taste of `The Dinner Party':[Home Edition]
ROBERT PEDERSEN. The Los Angeles Times (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.:  Nov 5, 1990.  pg. 3
(...)
Chicago made no mention of the "religious fanatics" and neo-Nazi conspiracy she now appears to credit in the Mahler story with frustrating her efforts to place "The Dinner Party" at UDC. Is Chicago now suggesting that the UDC students were dupes of some right-wing conspiracy?

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
No Conspiracy, But-- Two Assassins, Perhaps?; '...It seems to me possible that the report does not do justice to its own inquiries...' No Conspiracy, But-- In two and three-quarter years there has been a remarkable amount of nonevidence
By HENRY FAIRLIE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 11, 1966. p. 302 (5 pages)

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newark Advocate - 12/31/1963
...was neither the work of a left or RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY. It was the independent you.....Dallas and showed her the beginnings of a book critical (if the Russian svstcm. Lee.....to discipline. Meanwhile, the extreme RIGHT WING groups seem to be trying to prove.....The curious, sick argument seems to be that RIGHT WING hate is therefore clean and even..
Newark, Ohio   Tuesday, December 31, 1963  566 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/28/1964
...in America suspect that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or i U.S. RIGHT-WING plot the.....reeway. The front of the Texas School Book Depository was now on the President's.....the Trade Mart. front of the Texas Schoolc Book Depository was now on the President's.....motorcade, including the tall Texas school book depository, from which Lee Harvey Oswald..
Edwardsville, Illinois   Monday, September 28, 1964  735 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 9/28/1964
...in America suspect that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....Thomas G.. Buchanan, author of the book "Who Killed Kennedy" which was published.....investigations, court proceedings, or the RIGHT of individuals to a fair trial." Rumors.....the Commission has found no evidence of CONSPIRACY, subversion, or disloyalty to the..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Monday, September 28, 1964  831 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 9/28/1964
...had commented I that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....destroyed isaicL A" the shots came School Book Depository. "The report." he said, "is.....Oswald from FBI Director j Edgar extremist RIGHT-WING elements, of Fort Worth, mother of.....it can be the comin the area where book "The erroneous disclosures became the..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Monday, September 28, 1964  691 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 7/16/1964
...knight of salvation, the voice of a RIGHTj WING CONSPIRACY, or merely a shallow thinker.....problems. What he calls himself is a RIGHT-WING conservative. He thinks that way..
Holland, Michigan   Thursday, July 16, 1964  639 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 9/28/1964
...America suspect [that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....floor corner window of the Texas School Book Depository. He picked Oswald from a.....keeps you up, settle yourself for sleep RIGHT away with TUMS antacid tablets. Today's.....that either Oswald or Ruby "was part of any CONSPIRACY, domestic or foreign, to..
Reno, Nevada   Monday, September 28, 1964  631 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 7/25/1964
...knight of .salvation, the voice of a rigbt WING CONSPIRACY, or a shallow thinker with.....party system. 'Goldwater calls himself a RIGHT WING conservative. But the popular.....Marian .lean Shaw, l.iilure to the RIGHT of Juan barra. Burke Ave. disorderly.....changed to give more weight to big powers. RIGHT or wrong, Goldwater stands rarely..
Holland, Michigan   Saturday, July 25, 1964  658 k

Manitowoc Herald Times - 9/28/1964
...America suspect', 'that a foreign left-WING CONSPIRACY or a U.S. RIGHT-WING plot killed.....policei Col. Julm II. treund of .phrase book guaranteed to set n Signed) Arthur Post.....l I tions. court proceedings, or the1 .RIGHT of individuals to a fair i trial. i.....and transmitter of and announce so the book Published September 28, 1964 as and the..
Manitowoc, Wisconsin   Monday, September 28, 1964  943 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 9/5/1961
...France, where the shadow of renewed RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY hovers constantly as a threat.....survive. and fires failed to do, as in the book the Beach. Those who adopt this point of.....unhappy because he told me he didn't feel RIGHT. As for Colbert: said Kelly, originally.....is generally reputed to belong to the WING of the National Liberation Movement..
Edwardsville, Illinois   Tuesday, September 05, 1961  620 k

Chronicle Telegram - 4/16/1965
...Marquis Childs. You know that RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY with its full time.....be longer than 350 words. We reserve the RIGHT to edit and conden.se letters. Letters.....land. These 44 words give the States the RIGHT to o u tlaw labor contracts which.....an effort to force 20 states to repeal the "RIGHT-towork" laws or to prevent their..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, April 16, 1965  604 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
BELTWAY BANDIT (25 January 1978)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Crime Rate Is Issue in Alexandria As Council Campaigns Progress; Recruitment Proposal Legion's Proposal Candidate's Statement
By Maurine McLaughlin Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 14, 1967. p. B3 (1 page):
   Brown said that more cooperation is necessary among area police forces to combat "Beltway bandits" who use high-speed highways to move quickly from suburb to suburb.

2. Fairfax County Beltway Bandit Gets 30 Years
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 20, 1968. p. B3 (1 page)

---------------------------------------------------------------
BLEEDING HEART (LIBERLS) (24 February 1940)

(JSTOR)
Political Name Calling
Fon W. Boardman, Jr.
American Speech, Vol. 15, No. 4. (Dec., 1940), pp. 353-356.
Pg. 354:
   The New Dealers became..._drunken sailor spenders_...
   Pegler too has coined, or given prominence to, a fair share of unfair words, but he has not restricted his name-calling to those in public office to as great an extent as has Johnson.  He has looked at prominent liberals and shouted _big-name bleeding hearts_ and _double domes_.  In the same vein he has referred to _the bleeding-heart journalists of the New Deal_.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Pegler" + "bleeding heart(s)")
Appleton Post Crescent - 4/8/1940
...s Magna Charta as it has been called by the BLEEDING-HEART journalists of the New Deal.....has taken as the characters for her book, "Saga of such people as Olav Haraldsson.....April 8, 1940 APPLETON POST-CRESCENT PEGLER Wonders Just What Powers, Duties A.F.....in "Constance Garden Notebook." A handy book of reference on the animal kingdom which..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Monday, April 08, 1940  819 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 10/11/1940
...who also appealed to the pity .of the BLEEDING-HEART humani tarians and was given a.....o Pay for a Lot of Fancy Stuff BY WE8TBROOK PEGLER New York An economic royalist of my.....be.explained, for her satisfaction, if not PEGLER for her pleasure, that it was spent in..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Friday, October 11, 1940  853 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 2/24/1940
...This is a familiar trick. It permits the BLEEDING-HEART liberal to shade the j which.....Kaukauna Second Team Loses, 26-25 PEGLER Says Liberals Ought To Sit Down, Take.....I have seen it done often, even by big-name BLEEDING ble-domes whom you would give credit.....Inventory BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New The fatal defect of that which we..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Saturday, February 24, 1940  774 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 1/8/1938
...of any professional or semi-pro BLEEDING HEART who clamors that not a single.....disease. Another was reported a few days PEGLER Wonders How Come Lynching Bill Is So.....Vital BV WESTBROOK PEGLER New York Sudden death is common in..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Saturday, January 08, 1938  830 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 1/15/1938
...down for a rr.ir.utc. I asked him if old BLEEDING HEART Broun had been'in. and he said.....Added to Board at Forest Junction Session PEGLER Writes Story of BY WESTBROOK PEGLER.....sumof 422.80. If these do not bring their book value the reported shortage much larger.....points as given in the American Kennel Club book. Purebred Dogs, published in 1935. Skull..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Saturday, January 15, 1938  928 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 8/23/1940
...the master of two highsuburban homes. The BLEEDING-HEART business obviously is a pretty.....in night at Theda Clark hospital The book list for high school stui the upstairs.....or Colonel W. E. Hasj BY WESTBROOK PEGLER eltine. Ripon manufacturer, New There.....professional asserted both countries had bt HEART, but in either case a disadvantageous..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Friday, August 23, 1940  842 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 7/23/1940
...cr on. Mr Roosevclts ivy league friends and BLEEDING HEART coatwould surround himself.....of 1929. The late C. B. cy of this city was PEGLER Sees Parallel Between Farley and Uncle.....Will Gibson BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New Here are points in which the long..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Tuesday, July 23, 1940  920 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 7/2/1940
...power of the closed shop. Any communist or BLEEDING-HEART weekly or improvised fake.....job." art: Ida Lupino. Photoed with] it's a book profit, however, forj Soderberg received.....For Purging Guild of Reds BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New Thc editor of a little monthly..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Tuesday, July 02, 1940  919 k

Nevada State Journal - 1/9/1938
...of any professional or semipro BLEEDING HEART who clamors that not a single.....It Implies that the South is ByWestbrook PEGLER find reasons why -the killings in the..
Reno, Nevada   Sunday, January 09, 1938  708 k

Nevada State Journal - 1/18/1938
...sat down for a minute. I asked him if old BLEEDING HEART Broun had been in. and he said.....regarded as confidential, and the Navy code book had lead in the covets so when thrown.....and ignored. FAIR ENOUGH ByWestbrook PEGLER ._ nvTewed (bit erinm ketew are thoae.....my own business when he started yelling "PEGLER sells lousy What am I supposed to do..
Reno, Nevada   Tuesday, January 18, 1938  692 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 10/2/1940
...of holding com1 the generosity of the BLEEDING HEARTS I Panies. of the New Deal.....990 930 948 959 895 860 9te 1008 804 985 PEGLER Would Like Open Air Probe of the Whole.....New Deal BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New York I wish it were possible to.....hands out west. j Winnebago county assembly PEGLER He was what we called a character..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Wednesday, October 02, 1940  760 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 9/17/1940
...Remembering how arrogantly the hand washing BLEEDING HEARTS of the New Deal spoke c their.....New Deal Gets a New 'Mandate BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New As I look at it, this presidential.....they are head-weary now and, givenfour yeai PEGLER more, the New Deal would really bang..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Tuesday, September 17, 1940  843 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 7/19/1940
...But when 'two such wet-eye professional BLEEDING-HEARTS of the New Deal as Harry.....Owls Kappell's Taverns W. 1 1 1 0 0 0 PEGLER Calls Hopkins and Ickes Two Virtue.....t tell me that Mr. Ickes i frauds among the BLEEDING-HEARTS. respect, would have felt.....the home plate safely. Q BY WESTBROOK PEGLER flj Political expediency makes great..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Friday, July 19, 1940  780 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 11/15/1938
...than vindication. Several professional BLEEDING HEARTS broke down and bawled over.....this can be done. Ask for our Dream Kitchen Book and Free estimates. Garage Lining Line.....POST-CRESCENT CLASSIFIED ADS BY WESTBROOK PEGLER New York Nobody appreciates the doctor.....for parties in the evening. Ask for free book ideas. Table Tennis Play indoor tennis..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Tuesday, November 15, 1938  720 k

Nevada State Journal - 6/21/1939
...among the many professional and semi-pro BLEEDING HEARTS who are ever alert to defend.....been no attempt to prove that he makes a book or runs a gambling house in Mr.....INSAN ANTONIOJexas FAIR ENOUGH By Westbrook PEGLER Peg Takes Slap at Mayor La Guardia for.....are being made in the upper air In his new book, "In Blood and Maury Maverick produces a..
Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, June 21, 1939  647 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 10/3/1939
...Places If Lindbergh is friendly to these j BLEEDING HEARTS who squirted scorn ly. a war.....the sincerity of those arrayed beside them. PEGLER Mr. Browder has abandoned the old..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Tuesday, October 03, 1939  748 k

Mansfield News Journal - 11/15/1938
...than vindication. Several professional BLEEDING HEARTS broke down and bawled over.....Case Not Borne Out By the Facts WESTBROOK PEGLER NEW Nobody appreciates -the doctor's..
Mansfield, Ohio   Tuesday, November 15, 1938  799 k


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Mar  8 03:39:21 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:39:21 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:37:27 -0500 Grant Barrett

> ridiculous things such as teach one broad Southern accent, which is
> I
> guess why you tend to get characters supposedly from Texas sounding
> like they're from Alabama and vice versa.

We recently spent some time in the deep South. I had been to Florida many
times, but never spent time wandering around Alabama, Mississippi,
Louisiana, and east Texas. My daughter, who lives among them, thought I
was making fun because I was beginning to speak with a rural Southern
drawl. I hadn't even noticed.

When I was a youth, I was quite involved in church work which took me to
many national meetings where Southerners predominated. (Hint: it wasn't
Christian Science.) I always came back with an accent noticeable to my
northern friends and which lingered for several days.

Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to
many people or just me?

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Mar  8 14:24:31 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:24:31 -0000
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices
Message-ID: 

Can any racing man or woman help?

I quote from Clarence Cullen _Tales of the Ex-Tanks_ (1899-1900) 364:

"Somehow or another," went on Ex-Tank No. 27, irrelevantly and dreamily, "
I could n-o-t, not, get 'em right that winter. They may have been running
for Hogan, but they weren't running for me. When I'd dig a sleeper up, and
get it right, and lose rest waiting for the day to go down the line on it,
confidently expecting it 'ud be 30 to 1 or better, the word got out every
time, by the under-ground, or some way or another, and the skate 'ud
prance to the post with 1 to 3 on chalked in front of his name [...] Every
one that I looked over and saw worked at grey dawn and salted down as the
right goods the next time he went to the pump for long money had a Hanover
or a Hindoo price tacked to him when the slates went up.

So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price. I can see what it means: short
odds, but why? Something to do with the 'H'? No sign in OED, HDAS,
Mathews' Americanisms etc.

Jonathon Green


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Mon Mar  8 14:36:03 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:36:03 -0500
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices
Message-ID: 

Hanover Shoe Stables (today called Hanover Shoe Farms) near Hanover, PA is a
stud for standard thoroughbreds used in harness racing; it started up around
the turn of the 20th century. But I don't know of any dots that would connect
this place with your phrases.

Orin Hargraves


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Mar  8 14:57:45 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 06:57:45 -0800
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B9719@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

>Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires

>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...

Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.

--- "Baker, John"  wrote:
>>         Isn't this related to the difference
between
>> "good" and "bad" fires?  See
>> http://www.smokeybear.com/good-bad.asp.  The old
>> language suggested that all forest fires are bad,
>> which is no longer the Forest Service's position.
>>
>> John Baker

Could be, but "wildfires" includes fires where there
are no trees, and the USFS administers a lot of land
where there are no trees.  "Wildfire" encompasses
uncontrolled fire on all lands, irrespective of cover,
ownership or administration.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar  8 15:02:47 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:02:47 -0500
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price.

Hindoo and Hanover were two famous racehorses in the late 19th century. I
think they were relatives. Googling for <> will find a few
references.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar  8 15:08:09 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0500
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices:corrigendum
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040308100031.02f0c6c0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>Hindoo and Hanover were two famous racehorses in the late 19th century. I
>think they were relatives. Googling for <> will find a few
>references.

Maybe <> would be better. Hoodoo was another relative.

-- Doug Wilson


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Mar  8 15:43:25 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:43:25 -0000
Subject: Hindoo and Hanover
Message-ID: 

Many thanks for those responses. _Now_ I understand. So they're not, as I
had hoped, names for a particular wager.

Jonathon Green


From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU  Mon Mar  8 16:10:54 2004
From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:10:54 -0600
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: <0HU80054MKMJDO@smtp2.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: 

For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of audiotapes
from across the U.S.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Mar  8 16:04:08 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:04:08 -0500
Subject: doesn't/don't
Message-ID: 

A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject for the past month or so.

I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.

Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the first personal singular in correct usage?

Page Stephens


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 16:06:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:06:48 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: <20040308.090306.-209453.0.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:39 PM -0500 3/7/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>
>Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to
>many people or just me?
>
>
Not just to you; the process is virulent among football coaches, who
have been known to acquire a southern accent after a single exposure
when changing planes at Hartsfield Airport.

larry horn


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Mar  8 15:20:47 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:20:47 -0500
Subject: Rockefeller Gesture; Reverse McCarthyism; Bleeding Heart;
 Beltway Bandit
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:40:43 -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> REVERSE McCARTHYISM (March 1975)

I am uncertain from context just what reverse McCarthyism is. I have
often thought that the use of the word "racist" by some civil rights
activists was McCarthyism, i.e., using an epithet to supress any
disagreement as McCarthy and his ilk used "communist." Is this what is
being called reverse McCarthyism? That would be not the technique being
reversed but the political leaning.

FWIW, I was present and witnessed the Rockefeller gesture at the
Binghamton NY airport. My moment in history.

D


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 16:22:16 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:22:16 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: <20040308145745.22100.qmail@web9704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote:
>  >Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires
>
>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...
>
>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.
>
Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila
the Hun have in common?"

larry horn


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:02:46 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:02:46 -0500
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <200403080501.i28515vq020068@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

From:    Laurence Horn 

        >>>
As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the
object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same
daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice
distribution for quite some time.
        <<<

It's productive. No one has mentioned "debug" yet (OED 1945 in the
common current sense [or an obvious immediate ancestor]).

But this use with "gay" is an extension. I like it.

... Ah. OED says "de-" was used similarly in Latin(1), and shows
longstanding denominal use in English(2).

s.v. de-, prefix:

(1) [The long vowels are displayed in OED OnLine with graphics that
don't paste and I don't have the time to type them all in again.]

In Latin, de- had also the function of undoing or reversing the action
of a verb, e.g. armre to arm, dearmre to disarm, decorre to grace,
ddecorre to disgrace, jungre to join, djungre to unyoke, vlre to veil,
dvlre to unveil, and of forming verbs of similar type from substantives,
as dearture to dismember, from artus member, joint, dcollre to behead,
from collum neck, dcorticre to deprive of bark, from corticem bark,
dflrre to rob of its flowers, from flrem flower.

(2)
   2. Less frequently verbs (and their derivatives) are formed by
prefixing de- to a noun (cf. L. dfmre, F. d?froquer), with the sense:
a. To deprive, divest, free from, or rid of the thing in question: as
DEBOWEL (1375), deflesh, defoliage, deglaze, deglycerin, dehandle,
delawn, demast, demiracle, demonastery, depark, deprivilege,
deprotestant, detenant, detruth; depetticoated, dereligioned ppl. adjs.;
de-legitimation.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Mar  8 17:09:30 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:09:30 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040308101019.029e27b0@wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: 

How are these made available?

Grant

On Mar 8, 2004, at 11:10, Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of
> audiotapes
> from across the U.S.
>


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Mon Mar  8 17:04:37 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:04:37 +0000
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Incidentally, I remember (from the late 80s/early 90s) the humorous term
for 'de-gaying' one's home was 'straightening up'.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:04:52 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:04:52 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

You've got me.  What DO (or did) they have in common?

At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote:
>>  >Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>>>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>>>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires
>>
>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...
>>
>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.
>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila
>the Hun have in common?"
>
>larry horn


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:32:26 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:32:26 -0600
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: <001001c40527$058e1ec0$6a28bc3f@D552FS31>
Message-ID: 

At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject
>for the past month or so.
>
>I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.
>
>Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the
>first personal singular in correct usage?

It hasn't as far as I know.

You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I
can't say that.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Mon Mar  8 17:34:51 2004
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:34:51 -0800
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: <200403081714.i28HEY23002077@mtaw3.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: 

Dr M Lynne Murphy wrote:

>Incidentally, I remember (from the late 80s/early 90s) the humorous term
>for 'de-gaying' one's home was 'straightening up'.

This reminded me of the Romanovsky and Phillips song, "Straightening
Up the House" from their _Emotional Rollercoaster_ (1988):

http://www.elyrics.net/go/r/Romanovsky%20&%20Phillips%20Lyrics/Straightening%20Up%20The%20House%20Lyrics/

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:35:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:35:17 -0500
Subject: De-gaying
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:02 PM -0500 3/8/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>From:    Laurence Horn 
>
>         >>>
>As for "de-rice", the innovator was my (non-linguist) wife, and the
>object was my daughter--this was a while ago, as the same
>daughter--now home on college break--has been just fine with her rice
>distribution for quite some time.
>         <<<
>
>It's productive. No one has mentioned "debug" yet (OED 1945 in the
>common current sense [or an obvious immediate ancestor]).
>
>But this use with "gay" is an extension. I like it.
>
>... Ah. OED says "de-" was used similarly in Latin(1), and shows
>longstanding denominal use in English(2).
>
>s.v. de-, prefix:

The entry below exemplifies the not infrequent deleterious effects of
the non-theoretical approach of the OED, which leads to a conflation
of different patterns here and elsewhere.  An item like
"de-legitimation" is not a denominal verb, but a nominalized
de-verbal ("delegitimate", akin to modern "delegitimize").  But the
other examples look like true denominals.  Both "de-" and "un-" can
be used for forming denominal verbs, but the general pattern is that
the latter can be used more freely when the corresponding unprefixed
verb has an independent existence, even one with the same meaning
("unworm" a puppy, "unskin" an orange).  While un- can form un-nouns,
un-verbs, and of course un-adjectives, but in each case it tends to
leave the part of speech unaffected (nouns from nouns, etc.).
"Debug" is more natural than "unbug" because there's no verb "to bug"
in the relevant sense, and similarly for "de-stale" and "de-gay".
Compare these recent pop song with productive reversative un-verb
formations based on verbs:

(1)
Un-break my heart
Say you'll love me again
Undo this hurt you caused
When you walked out the door
And walked outta my life
Un-cry these tears
I cried so many nights
========
(2)
You can't uncry the tears that you've cried
You can't unshoot that gun
You can't unlive the life that you've lived
(You gotta go on, go on)

Larry Horn


>
>(1) [The long vowels are displayed in OED OnLine with graphics that
>don't paste and I don't have the time to type them all in again.]
>
>In Latin, de- had also the function of undoing or reversing the action
>of a verb, e.g. armre to arm, dearmre to disarm, decorre to grace,
>ddecorre to disgrace, jungre to join, djungre to unyoke, vlre to veil,
>dvlre to unveil, and of forming verbs of similar type from substantives,
>as dearture to dismember, from artus member, joint, dcollre to behead,
>from collum neck, dcorticre to deprive of bark, from corticem bark,
>dflrre to rob of its flowers, from flrem flower.
>
>(2)
>    2. Less frequently verbs (and their derivatives) are formed by
>prefixing de- to a noun (cf. L. dfmre, F. d?froquer), with the sense:
>a. To deprive, divest, free from, or rid of the thing in question: as
>DEBOWEL (1375), deflesh, defoliage, deglaze, deglycerin, dehandle,
>delawn, demast, demiracle, demonastery, depark, deprivilege,
>deprotestant, detenant, detruth; depetticoated, dereligioned ppl. adjs.;
>de-legitimation.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:37:11 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:37:11 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040308120419.0115e898@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>You've got me.  What DO (or did) they have in common?

Same middle name.

LH

>
>At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote:
>>>  >Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>>>>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>>>>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires
>>>
>>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
>>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...
>>>
>>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.
>>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila
>>the Hun have in common?"
>>
>>larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 17:43:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:43:13 -0500
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:32 AM -0600 3/8/04, Barbara Need wrote:
>At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>>A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject
>>for the past month or so.
>>
>>I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.
>>
>>Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the
>>first personal singular in correct usage?
>
>It hasn't as far as I know.
>
>You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I
>can't say that.
>
>Barbara Need
>UChicago--Linguistics

It's a VERY recent change; you might have missed it.

Seriously, I think Page meant "was replaced by" rather than "replaced".

larry horn


From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU  Mon Mar  8 19:04:08 2004
From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:04:08 -0600
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: <0HU9006LTOZZT6@smtp2.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: 

You can contact me at this address. At this point they are still on
cassettes, though we are in the process of making CDs.  The cost is $8 per
side of a cassette.  The best way to see if we have what people are
interested in is to look at the Informant list in the front matter to
Volume I.  There you can see what communities we did interviews in, see
which Informants made tape recordings, and find out details of age, sex,
race, amount of education, and community type for each one.

At 12:09 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Grant Barrett 
>Subject:      Re: Actor's Dialects
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>How are these made available?
>
>Grant
>
>On Mar 8, 2004, at 11:10, Joan Houston Hall wrote:
>
> > For mid-century examples, DARE has an extensive collection of
> > audiotapes
> > from across the U.S.
> >


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Mon Mar  8 19:18:58 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:18:58 -0600
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>>>A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject
>>>for the past month or so.
>>>
>>>I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.
>>>
>>>Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the
>>>first personal singular in correct usage?
>>
>>It hasn't as far as I know.
>>
>>You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I
>>can't say that.
>
>It's a VERY recent change; you might have missed it.

Well, I know I am often behind the times in adopting linguistic
innovations, but you would think I would have heard about this. :-)

>Seriously, I think Page meant "was replaced by" rather than "replaced".

That's not an improvement. doesn't was never standard for 1 person singular.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Mar  8 19:04:22 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:04:22 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Ugh!

At 12:37 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>You've got me.  What DO (or did) they have in common?
>
>Same middle name.
>
>LH
>
>>
>>At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote:
>>>>  >Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>>>>>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>>>>>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires
>>>>
>>>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
>>>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...
>>>>
>>>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.
>>>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila
>>>the Hun have in common?"
>>>
>>>larry horn


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Mar  8 19:29:25 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:29:25 -0800
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: <200403080556.1b0lf51PW3NZFjX0@robin>
Message-ID: 

>Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to
>many people or just me?

When I was in the 5th grade we drove down to Atlanta from NYC to
visit relatives.  By the time we got there, my accent had gotten so
thick my mother said she could no longer understand me.  In another
example, my husband - born in Oklahoma, BA from UT Austin - was
reading "Semi Tough."  His accent started coming back and I was ready
to kick him by the time he finished the damn book.

Rima


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Mar  8 19:29:45 2004
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:29:45 -0700
Subject: Actor's Dialects
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Mar  8 19:50:23 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:50:23 -0800
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
Message-ID: 

I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air,"
who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in
the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the
setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all). Among
the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker," "piss off" (in
the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David wanted to know if those
words would in fact have been current in the language of the period.

I note that both the OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in
1891 for the earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first
cite of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from 1937. In
the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how long such terms can
live in speech without being recorded), does the use of the words in
"Deadwood" seem authentic?

I'd appreciate it if you could copy David Bianculli
 on any response.

Geoff Nunberg


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Mar  8 20:29:46 2004
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:29:46 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Are there any scripts we can look at?

On Mar 8, 2004, at 14:50, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:
> I note that both the OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in
> 1891 for the earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first
> cite of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from 1937. In
> the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how long such terms can
> live in speech without being recorded), does the use of the words in
> "Deadwood" seem authentic?


--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Oxford University Press

American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 20:45:29 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:45:29 -0500
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040308140358.01f9bbb0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 2:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ugh!

It's your basic third-grade joke.  Your standards need parameterized.

larry horn

>
>At 12:37 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 12:04 PM -0500 3/8/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>You've got me.  What DO (or did) they have in common?
>>
>>Same middle name.
>>
>>LH
>>
>>>
>>>At 11:22 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>At 6:57 AM -0800 3/8/04, James Smith wrote:
>>>>>  >Date:   Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800
>>>>>>From:  "Dave Wilton" 
>>>>>>Subject:       Wildfires v. Forest Fires
>>>>>
>>>>>>This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note
>>>>>that >Smokey The Bear's tagline has changed ...
>>>>>
>>>>>Just a reminder, it's "Smokey Bear" nowdays.
>>>>Thereby ruining the old riddle, "What do Smokey the Bear and Attila
>>>>the Hun have in common?"
>>>>
>>>>larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar  8 20:51:18 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:51:18 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:29 AM -0800 3/8/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>Question: Are Southern accents infective? Does this phenomenon happen to
>>many people or just me?
>
>When I was in the 5th grade we drove down to Atlanta from NYC to
>visit relatives.  By the time we got there, my accent had gotten so
>thick my mother said she could no longer understand me.

There's a nice instance of this in the "American Tongues" video, in
which a Yale undergrad describes how her new boyfriend was driving
her south to meet his family and his southern accent increased with
every mile on the trip, until (IIRC) she jumped out of the car and
took a train back north.

>  In another
>example, my husband - born in Oklahoma, BA from UT Austin - was
>reading "Semi Tough."  His accent started coming back and I was ready
>to kick him by the time he finished the damn book.
>
See, it's that synergy with football.

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar  8 20:57:55 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:57:55 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:50:23AM -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:
> I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air,"
> who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in
> the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the
> setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all).

They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language?
Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity
specialists getting contacted by them with offers of
money in exchange for accuracy ;-(.

> Among the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker,"
> "piss off" (in the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David
> wanted to know if those words would in fact have been
> current in the language of the period.  I note that both the
> OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in 1891 for the
> earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first cite
> of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from
> 1937. In the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how
> long such terms can live in speech without being recorded),
> does the use of the words in "Deadwood" seem authentic?

_Cocksucker_ was in use in the 1860s as a term of contempt
(the earliest literal example I know of is from the 1880s,
and comes from Fred Shapiro), _pace_ HDAS and OED. I don't
know how common it could have been--it took a lot of effort
to find this quote, but as you note this is not the sort
of thing that would have been written down much. (OTOH,
though, there's no source that anyone could have checked
that would have revealed this information, so much for
their authenticity.)

_piss off_ we have earlier evidence for but nothing _near_
the 1860s, and it would surprise me greatly if it was in
use then. Same for _shitface_, though perhaps it would
surprise me less.

This reminds me of _Titanic._ There was all this talk
about how they went to the original carpet manufacturer
to have the carpets re-woven in the same pattern, and
stuff like that, but I was _stunned_ with how awful the
language was. (Also, of course, the things that people
_said_ were inauthentic about the language were not
anachronisms, but that's often the case.)

There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested
in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten
his name.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED/HDAS


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Mar  8 22:32:42 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:32:42 -0600
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
Message-ID: 

Yeah, what was his name again?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 
(snip)
> There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested
> in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten
> his name.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED/HDAS
>


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Mon Mar  8 22:28:47 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:28:47 -0600
Subject: obscene words from deadwood
Message-ID: 

Geoff, you could tell David Bianculli this:

It's great to get pissed off at imprecise claims to accuracy on the part of scriptwriters, but what degree of accuracy can we realistically demand from fiction, anyway? I had one college instructor who explained Keats' "error" in having Cortez discover the Pacific with this wild surmise: as Keats discovers Chapman's Homer, second-hand and in translation, so Cortez came to the ocean after Balboa. Of course, I have no idea whether Cortez reached the Pacific in his travels, but I supposed he did. Another prof, who was actually a minor poet as well as a critic, could never forgive Keats for the mistake, as he never forgave some mystery writer--possibly Erle Stanley Gardner--for having a fictional train from LA to Denver travel on a schedule that the real train of the same name never followed.

The Earl of Roscommon wrote in his poem, "Horace's Art of Poetry,"  (long before Keats nodded), "[I]n a Poem elegantly writ,  I will not quarrel with a slight mistake . . . But in long Works, Sleep will sometimes surprize,/ Homer himself hath been observ'd to nodd." Of course there's a special irony about a poet saying in a poem that it's okay for poets to make mistakes . . . there must be a figure of speech to characterize that.

But of course, HBO's a horse of a different, well, stripe. [sic]

Dennis


Dennis Baron                                                office: 217-244-0568
Professor of English and Linguistics              mobile: 217-840-0776
Department of English                                           fax: 217-333-4321
University of Illinois             https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/debaron/www
608 S. Wright St.
Urbana, IL 61801                                                  debaron at uiuc.edu
Dennis Baron                                         debaron at uiuc.edu
Dept. of English
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
608 S. Wright St.
Urbana, IL 61801
office: 217-244-0568
english dept.: 217-333-2390


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar  8 22:51:52 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:51:52 -0500
Subject: obscene words from deadwood
In-Reply-To: <20cb0f7f.1e0ec412.8a24300@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 04:28:47PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote:
> Geoff, you could tell David Bianculli this:
>
> It's great to get pissed off at imprecise claims to accuracy
>on the part of scriptwriters, but what degree of accuracy can
>we realistically demand from fiction, anyway?

[...]

Dennis, I do think that the issue of linguistic accuracy in
films or other works of fiction is an interesting one, and I
agree that in many cases we shouldn't expect accuracy at
all. An impression of accuracy is much more important, even
if it's completely inaccurate in reality--cf. an insistence
on using RP for Shakespeare when modern American English is
probably closer to how things sounded (help me out here, Dale),
or even using modern Scots actors to represent someone speaking
Gaelic--might as well give 'em a French accent.

I know this is a subject of interest to the original-instruments
crowd in early music, too.

But anyway my point is that even if we accept the fiction in
fiction, there are these cases when the fiction is explicity
freighted with claims to its extreme accuracy in particular
areas--the re-weaving of the Titanic's carpets is one
example. So if the producers of this show said, "We're doing a
cowboy show, and you will think it's authentic because there
are tumbleweeds and cowboy hats and people saying "howdy"
a lot," that's one thing. But if they said, "We dug up the
corpse of Bill Hickok so we could see the style of the
suit he buried him in, and we spoke to botanical historians
to make sure the kind of tumbleweeds are the kind that would
have been there, but we're still going to have people saying
"cowpoke" because that's what the viewers expect, even though
the term really dates from the 1920s", well, that's bad. And
really bad would be if they said "We're really accurate with
language, so we're putting in all sorts of authentic stuff
like "cowpoke", and I know it's authentic because it sounds
authentic". And that seems to be what's happening here.

Jesse Sheidlower


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Mon Mar  8 23:14:27 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:14:27 -0600
Subject: obscene words from deadwood
In-Reply-To: <200403082251.i28MptPw020143@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

I think they're probably thinking, language-wise, that using words like
piss off and cocksucker are authentic because they're gritty, and they
equate grit in dialogue with realism. Not just grit, but bodily noises,
as in the post-bean scene in Blazing Saddles. Everybody knows that
cowpokes used bad language, nu?

Dennis


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar  9 00:10:53 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:10:53 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 
> They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language?
> Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity
> specialists getting contacted by them with offers of
> money in exchange for accuracy ;-(.

They expect you to work for  pride, also. :)

I just hope they don't try to tell us what cards Wild Bill was holding that
fatal day!!

Sam Clements


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 00:21:29 2004
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:21:29 EST
Subject: obscene words from deadwood
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/8/2004 5:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jester at PANIX.COM writes:
Dennis, I do think that the issue of linguistic accuracy in
films or other works of fiction is an interesting one, and I
agree that in many cases we shouldn't expect accuracy at
all. An impression of accuracy is much more important, even
if it's completely inaccurate in reality--cf. an insistence
on using RP for Shakespeare when modern American English is
probably closer to how things sounded
Yes, isn't it interesting how in films or TV we run the gamut from the
Hogan's Heroes type of show, where we're hearing English with a German accent and
expected to accept that they're all speaking German (or how about those really
bad generic East-European accents Peter Graves used in Mission Impossible), to
the search for authenticity in films like The Passion.  Shakespeare's
post-vocalic /r/ was certainly more American than RP--some of the vowels would sound
more Irish-English (undiphthongized /e/ and /o/), but then again, as my grad
adviser used to say--who knows how they actually sounded back then? We can take
a stab at it, but so much is guesswork.
   This reminds me of an interview--I think it was on Fresh Air--with one of
the Navajo marines from WWII who was one of the guys used to stump the
Japanese by speaking his native language over the airwaves.   He was commenting on
Windtalker (is that the right title)--the movie about that event, and he was
offended by the profanity in the movie--it wasn't like that he said.  Some people
talked like that, but not that many.   I think TV producers like to throw
those words in because they imagine it gives ad executives a thrill and might
land them another sponsor, not for any desire to be authentic.
    I also remember watching a movie in high school--Soldier Blue--set in
maybe 1875--in which one of the soldiers comments on Candace Bergen's "boobs"--
cheap thrills. It's the kind of thing that stays with you when you're 16.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 04:21:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:21:32 EST
Subject: Cut the Mustard (1898); Love You Beans & Rice; Milk, Milk,
 Lemonade
Message-ID: 

   Parking tickets from 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. in a room with no air.  Life just
doesn't get any better than this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CUT THE MUSTARD

   The RHDAS has 1902 "O. Henry."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Commerce Journal - 3/6/1903
...recent cold snap was severe enough to CUT THE MUSTARD and lettuce and play
sad havoc.....March, bitter and bleak and cold THE day. THE wind goes
wailing, THE sky, is gray, THE.....to bridges on THE .public rodds .leading to THE
main cities and .towns of THE country. We.....to eat No Go to THE Dining Rooms
and learn THE reason why. some it THE meat cubatiiutes..
Commerce, Texas Friday, March 06, 1903  488 k

Idaho Daily Statesman - 6/2/1901
...THEm before It left Home. I am out that he CUT THE MUSTARD in great shape.
to put THE.....studs in Cousin Dellie's to CUT Loose and Have agood I guess
his head was.....word should appear, ings. THEse Town CUT Ups had onJy Adelbert
s cousin tried to.....and in THE cab was THE keen, dark face of THE head of
THE secret police. In THE palace..
Boise, Idaho Sunday, June 02, 1901  855 k

Anaconda Standard - 5/17/1901
...Field. THE Spavs couldn't quite CUT THE MUSTARD yesterday afternoon, but
THEy 'ca.....Staple Goods and Your Honey's Wor You Can CUT It With an Axe BUT
PINS. TACKS AND BROKEN.....from THE sick room in San Francisco; THE condition
of THE first lady of THE land.....of THE Union. Each succeeding bulletin was
THE signal for THE of a crowd, but THE wires..
Anaconda, Montana Friday, May 17, 1901  845 k

Anaconda Standard - 7/11/1901
...was bobbing up and down, but she couldn't CUT THE MUSTARD. When Wilson got
to Ruttrv he.....July THE fire department had some fast work CUT out for it
to-night at THE NorTHErn.....THE process of ing THE noise that attracted THE
officer. As THE latter approached THE.....which is camped on THE banks oC THE
stream. THE wife complained to THE officer that THE..
Anaconda, Montana Thursday, July 11, 1901  887 k

Herald Despatch - 5/18/1898
...THE oTHEr THEir will, if he can CUT THE MUSTARD. tha Camp teke8 muc not
want THE.....realize THE forca of THE happily combined. THE two nations an
supporting THE world and.....to give op THE job and get out of THE way THE bone
stopPOLITICAL GOSSIP. egatee to THE.....carry THE troops THE first starting i at
THE second at 1 p. m. and THE las at 2..
Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, May 18, 1898  786 k
Pg. 6?, col. 2:
   His friends not only insist that he shall be a candidate but insist as
well that he shall be the next county judge and McDonald bows to their wishes and
will do their will, if he can cut the mustard.

Herald Despatch - 4/6/1898
...John J. Graves, tight but that ha cun't CUT THE MUSTARD. 0. 0. Leforgee,
James.....Fix THE Delegation one. S. S. Jack opposed THE idea on THE ground
that THE delegates to.....date aroused in THE minda ien5. This was THE first
intimation THE feomeofTHE cohorts.....half of THE delecontracts THEm to some of
THE oTHEr Rates being from THE country and..
Decatur, Illinois Wednesday, April 06, 1898  766 k
Pg. 2, col. 1:
   It was claimed after the convention that David Patterson would like to be
a candidate for the legislature, but some of the young bucks say that Mr.
Patterson is all right but that he can't cut the mustard.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
   I don't have time for these two now.  They were nowhere in
Newspaperarchive.com?

I LOVE YOU ONCE, I LOVE YOU TWICE, I LOVE YOU MORE THAN BEANS AND RICE--9
Google hits, 11 Google Groups hits

MILK, MILK, LEMONADE,  AROUND THE CORNER FUDGE IS MADE--979 Google hits, 518
Google Groups hits


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar  9 04:29:40 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:29:40 -0500
Subject: Cut the Mustard (1898); Love You Beans & Rice; Milk, Milk,
 Lemonade
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: 
\> MILK, MILK, LEMONADE,  AROUND THE CORNER FUDGE IS MADE--979 Google hits,
518
> Google Groups hits

I remember this as one of my first 'dirty' jokes, probably about the
mid-1950.

I can't recall the exact words, but something about point to your genitals
while saying 'lemonade', then  "go around the corner, get your hot dogs
here."

Same thing, I think.

Sam Clements

It might have been something like "xxx, xxx, lemonade, beer, go around the
corner get your hot dogs here"(while pointing at your posterior).


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar  9 05:48:10 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:48:10 -0800
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
Message-ID: 

Thanks for this, Jesse, and to Dennis, Dale et al. for the other
comments. Of course we linguists are apt to be more put off by these
anachronisms than other people. I think of the  story about Edith
Head, the famous Hollywood costume designer, who as she was walking
out of "Oklahoma!" remarked to her companion: "I don't see what all
the fuss is about. The hems are two inches thick!"

Geoff


>On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:50:23AM -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:
>>  I had a call from David Bianculli, the TV reviewer from "Fresh Air,"
>>  who's doing a piece on the new HBO show "Deadwood," a western set in
>>  the 1860's which prides itself on the authenticity of both the
>>  setting and the obscenity-laced language (it's HBO, after all).
>
>They pride themselves on the authenticity of the language?
>Funny, I hadn't heard of any 19th-century obscenity
>specialists getting contacted by them with offers of
>money in exchange for accuracy ;-(.
>
>>  Among the phrases that the program uses are "cocksucker,"
>>  "piss off" (in the sense "irritate") and "shitface." David
>>  wanted to know if those words would in fact have been
>>  current in the language of the period.  I note that both the
>>  OED and HDAS give a Farmer and Henley entry in 1891 for the
>>  earliest use of "cocksucker," and that the OED's first cite
>>  of "piss off" is from 1968 and for "shitface" is from
>>  1937. In the light of those cites (but bearing in mind how
>>  long such terms can live in speech without being recorded),
>>  does the use of the words in "Deadwood" seem authentic?
>
>_Cocksucker_ was in use in the 1860s as a term of contempt
>(the earliest literal example I know of is from the 1880s,
>and comes from Fred Shapiro), _pace_ HDAS and OED. I don't
>know how common it could have been--it took a lot of effort
>to find this quote, but as you note this is not the sort
>of thing that would have been written down much. (OTOH,
>though, there's no source that anyone could have checked
>that would have revealed this information, so much for
>their authenticity.)
>
>_piss off_ we have earlier evidence for but nothing _near_
>the 1860s, and it would surprise me greatly if it was in
>use then. Same for _shitface_, though perhaps it would
>surprise me less.
>
>This reminds me of _Titanic._ There was all this talk
>about how they went to the original carpet manufacturer
>to have the carpets re-woven in the same pattern, and
>stuff like that, but I was _stunned_ with how awful the
>language was. (Also, of course, the things that people
>_said_ were inauthentic about the language were not
>anachronisms, but that's often the case.)
>
>There's a New York parking-ticket judge who's interested
>in linguistic anachronisms in the movies, but I've forgotten
>his name.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED/HDAS


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 06:23:49 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:23:49 EST
Subject: Piss in your Cheerios (1990); Must be jelly; White on rice;
 Stuffed like turkey
Message-ID: 

    A few more food phrases.  I haven't searched ProQuest.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PISS IN YOUR CHEERIOS

IN YOUR CHEERIOS--2,820 Google hits, 2,320 Google Groups hits
IN HIS CHEERIOS--193 Google hits, 306 Google Groups hits
IN HER CHEERIOS--46 Google hits, 96 Google Groups hits

   I think I remember this from the late 1970s or early 1980s.  The brand
name "Cheerios" helps.  I haven't seen piss on my "Lucky Charms."  Or "Total"
piss.
   So people actually piss on Cheerios?  Don't Cheerios go better with milk?

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Re: Magic Genie
... Do I have to answer which book I'd pick? I have emailed the poster a copy
of Queers
Read This. FLAME MODE OFF FLAME MODE ON Who pissed in your Cheerios? ...
soc.motss - Feb 24, 1991 by Matt Hucke - View Thread (25 articles)

Re: Apology & Commentary
... I think a lot of it is, but I don't think it should be. Look you
douche-slurping
rodent rectal rapist, who pissed dioxins in your Cheerios? ...
alt.mud - Jun 21, 1990 by Vintage Mutant Ganja Technerd - View Thread (4
articles)

Re: Ramones!
... Get them. Now. hurry. ---- note: these albums aren't really for
everyone. if you don't like speed in your cheerios, forget it.
rec.music.misc - Jun 14, 1990 by David M Stern - View Thread (6 articles)

Re: IslandiaMap v1.0 in postscript (WARNING: HUGE!!!)
... recently. Don't tell me to be quiet. Don't speak for The People.
And don't post after someone pissed in your Cheerios(tm). As I ...
alt.mud - Jun 9, 1990 by Russ "Nightfall" Smith - View Thread (12 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MUST BE JELLY

MUST BE JELLY--811 Google hits, 735  Google Groups hits

   "It must be jelly 'cause jam don't shake that way."  Also, rarely, "it
must be cream 'cause milk don't flow like that."
   From the song.

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Jules (jujuvoo at bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: IT MUST BE JELLY CAUSE JAM DON'T SHAKE THAT WAY
Newsgroups: alt.music.blues
Date: 1999/01/06

IT MUST BE JELLY CAUSE JAM DON T SHAKE LIKE THAT
   Writer(s):WILLIAMS GEORGE
                 MAC GREGOR J CHALMERS
                 SKYLAR SUNNY
   Publisher(s):MUTUAL MUSIC SOCIETY
   Performers(s):MILLER GLENN
                  JAMES HARRY
                  BUTTERFIELD B/ORCHESTRA/HERMAN
                  BUTTERFIELD B
                  HERMAN WOODY
                  WAYNE F
                  ARMY AIR FORCE BAND

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
News - 3/4/1944
...Stem Johnny Comes Lately Easy To AH For It MUST BE JELLY Rainbow Rhapsody
Chloe Do.....for the peacetime service. 100.0M May BE Eligible No figures as
to the numBEr to BE.....rate is 15 cents and the new rate will BE 20 cents.
Insured C. O. D. fees are..
Frederick, Maryland Saturday, March 04, 1944  775 k

Lethbridge Herald - 4/1/1944
...My Man GLENN MILLER Rainbow Rhapsody It MUST BE JELLY RPDO 322 Seventh
Street S.....has passed, but still winter seems to BE lingering, for the days are
still chilly.....of rural education, and he was pleased to BE back to help
adjust those problems..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 01, 1944  690 k

Gazette And Bulletin - 2/19/1944
...a Wink Sinatra Si> oFlight BEnny Goodman It MUST BE JELLY Glenn Miller Am
I Blue Buster.....WUar-1 Bright >.orUom David Ha rum L Should BE Fun -What'B
Tour Jdeat" unt Jenny We opply.....Handy Man Kary M. Talking J[ WJlBC Llf. Can
BE B.autt New.-. R. ;Dady WMCA New.-, Pan..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, February 19, 1944  628 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LIKE WHITE ON RICE

WHITE ON RICE--5,780 Google hits, 5,890 Google Groups hits

   This was new to several people who discussed it on alt.usage.english amd
alt.english.usage in 1998 and 1999.
   It's been used in football to describe the tight defensive coverage that a
cornerback gives to a wide receiver (such as Jerry Rice).

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gettysburg Times - 12/17/1981
...from CoONey. I'll be ON him like WHITE ON RICE." CoONey is WHITE, but both
men deny a.....black-WHITE rivalry. "There is no color involved.....up more
mouths. There's always somebody ON the horizON to take Larry Holmes. You
II.....will be scaled from down to They went ON sale Wednesday, according to Bob
Halloran..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, December 17, 1981  479 k

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Penn St./Oklahoma/Pac-10
... Bless you, my boy. The Oklahoma fans, the Big Eight defenders, and
even a proponent of the SEC have been on me like white on rice. ...
net.sport.football - Jan 8, 1986 by jimb at ISM780B.UUCP - View Thread (5
articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
STUFFED LIKE A CHRISTMAS TURKEY

STUFFED LIKE A + TURKEY--786 Google hits, 285 Google Groups hits
STUFFED AS A + TURKEY--93 Google hits, 67 Google Groups hits

   Probably 19th century.

Bridgeport Standard Telegram - 4/4/1919
...piped thAt the bAllot box hAd been STUFFED LIKE A ChristmAs TURKEY. There
is no use.....hunch thAt JAck Dempsey would tAke him LIKE Dewey took MAnilA.
Connie MAck's..
Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, April 04, 1919  693 k

Fond Du Lac Reporter - 11/15/1976
...MiD20s I IS YOUR HOUSE STUFFED LIKE A THANKSGIVING TURKEY? WAnt to spreA
d.....your glAssed in porch, pet blinds. You'll LIKE the rest of the house too.
CArpeted.....One 12 to 14 ib. Armour StAr, USDA GrAde A TURKEY is the finAl
dressing on every deAl.....WILL Believe it possible to find A home LIKE this in
good tion for on A 70x132 foot..
Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Monday, November 15, 1976  523 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 06:54:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:54:52 EST
Subject: Fat Cat (1925)
Message-ID: 

   The HDAS has 1928 for "fat cat," "a wealthy and privileged individual,
esp. a financial backer of a political campaign."
   Sorry, but I'm having trouble with Newspaperarchive and can't open the
article at the moment.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Denton Journal - 11/7/1925
...in the Republican party promises the finest FAT CAT fight ever seen in
this State, Frank.....It ough.1 perhaps to be explained that FAT CAT is the
significant and revealing name.....as candidate or backer, the magic i words "FAT
CAT" ring throughout the wards, precincts.....in a battle for blood. Soon or
late every FAT CAT in the party will likely be involved..
Denton, Maryland Saturday, November 07, 1925  673 k
Pg.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Mar  9 13:24:34 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:24:34 -0500
Subject: Googleable ADS-L
Message-ID: 

From:    "Douglas G. Wilson" 

: I see that the messages on this list are now found by Google...



: Whatever you or I said on the list about (say) "quahogs" three years
: ago will be found by anybody googling for "quahogs". Then that interested
: person can e-mail you and me at his pleasure to discuss the quahogs
: further. Some words may arouse more -- and/or less welcome --
: interest than "quahogs", of course.

: Googling for my own name I come up with hundreds of items from the
: list.

Sometimes it's comforting to know that I have an effectively ungooglable
name.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Mar  9 13:41:46 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:41:46 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
Message-ID: 

From:    Dave Wilton 

: I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American undergraduate days a few
: years earlier (1981-85). There was no association with gay subculture. I
: recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days. It was not as common
: as 'rents was a few years later.

I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early 90s, MD and western PA),
but I heard but didn't use 'rents.

When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was occasionally used by the
students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as short for "Mormon" (the
student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according to the shool's website).
I always thought this was a fascinating clipping, since (like 'za) it's
based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Mar  9 13:41:47 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:41:47 -0500
Subject: Actor's Dialects
Message-ID: 

From:    Ray Villegas 

: I am interested in the way actor's learn an accent for a part in a movie
: or play...

Just wanted to mention Lewis Herman and Marguerite Shalett Herman's 1947
book _Manual of American dialects for radio, statge and screen, and
television_, republished in 1997 by Routledge as _American dialects: A
manual for actors, directors, and writers_. I haven't had a chance to proof
it for accuracy, but it sits on my bookshelf waiting for a spare moment.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Mar  9 13:57:19 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:57:19 -0800
Subject: starving the beast query
Message-ID: 

I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast" used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in order to take money away from the federal administration and to increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s.

Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the phrase originate?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 13:57:53 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:57:53 EST
Subject: Wildfires v. Forest Fires
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:39:50 -0800,  Dave Wilton
 complains:

>  This has come up on ADS-L in the past, but I note that Smokey The Bear's
>  tagline has changed to "Only you can prevent wildfires." I don't know when
>  the shift from "forest fires" occurred, but I heard it in a TV ad today. I
>  thought it might be language targeted for a California audience, but
>  "wildfire" is used on the web site www.smokeybear.com.

The original "Only you can prevent forest fires" almost scans:

      'on-ly ''you / can pre-''vent / ''for-est 'fires

i.e. if you ignore the primary accent on the first syllable of "forest" you
have three anapests.

"Only you can prevent wildfires" doesn't come close to scanning.

As to when Smokey the Bear lost his middle name, I have a suspicion that
the phrase "Smokey Bear"  originated in the Citizens' Band community.  At
least I don't recall having heard it before the CB fad in 1974.

Circa 1980 an Englishwoman asked me "why do you refer to your [state] police
officers as 'bears'" and I was able to respond with a straight face, "Because
of the hats they wear!"

Historical trivia:  the custom of having State Troopers wear campaign hats
("Smokey the Bear hats") originated here in New Jersey.  It was introduced by
the founder of the New Jersey State Police, one H. Norman Schwartzkopf (father
of the Gulf War general).

          - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 14:25:00 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:25:00 EST
Subject: ambulance chaser
Message-ID: 

 On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    If Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School finds "ambulance chaser" in 1496,
> I'll eat the beer can in "beer can chicken."

1496 would be a good trick, since the OED dates "ambulance" in the sense of a
single vehicle only from 1854.

A lawyer once told me that she was dating a hospital administrator.  "My
parents are in favor of the match.  I'll be the only lawyer with my own fleet of
ambulances to chase!"

Seriously, if you are interested in legal antedatings of the late 19th/early
20th century (I'm not), one place to look is "The Green Bag", which from 1889
to 1914 pablished articles that "make an argument that merits more than a
letter to the editor but fewer than fifty footnotes."  I don't know if it has been
placed on-line.  It has recently been resurrected, see www.greenbag.org

Worth quoting:  "Green Bag law review. The review just reached its fifth
anniversary, at least in its revivedstate. It was born in 1889, but stopped
publishing in 1914, and took its name from the green satchels that lawyers from
Daniel Webster on into the last century used to carry. It also was a pejorative
name for lawyers, roughly equivalent to ?ambulance chaser? today."


(http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:zuslaDOo7bsJ:www.gmu.edu/departments/law/currnews/wry-turn.pdf+%2B%22The+green+bag%22%2Bambulance&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Aside to Barry Popik: your citation of "Beltway bandit" is for a different
sense than the usual one "consultant to the Federal Government", so-called
because a large number of such consulting companies have offices in communities
along the Washington Beltway, particularly in and around Maclean VA and Greenbelt
MD.

      - James A. Landau (former Beltway bandit)


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Mar  9 14:29:23 2004
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:29:23 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <00e301c405dc$45d70540$84fbab0a@BOWIE>
Message-ID: 

I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it
was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in
Philly, NJ, and NYC.

Ed


--- David Bowie  wrote:
> From:    Dave Wilton 
>
> : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American
> undergraduate days a few
> : years earlier (1981-85). There was no association
> with gay subculture. I
> : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days.
> It was not as common
> : as 'rents was a few years later.
>
> I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early
> 90s, MD and western PA),
> but I heard but didn't use 'rents.
>
> When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was
> occasionally used by the
> students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as
> short for "Mormon" (the
> student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according
> to the shool's website).
> I always thought this was a fascinating clipping,
> since (like 'za) it's
> based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation.
>
> David Bowie
> http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no
> chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be
> purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it
> must be consumed.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar  9 14:35:26 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:35:26 -0500
Subject: doesn't/don't
Message-ID: 

I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have uploaded
in haste and repented at leisure.

Page

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Need" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: doesn't/don't


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Barbara Need 
> Subject:      Re: doesn't/don't
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
> >A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject
> >for the past month or so.
> >
> >I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.
> >
> >Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the
> >first personal singular in correct usage?
>
> It hasn't as far as I know.
>
> You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I
> can't say that.
>
> Barbara Need
> UChicago--Linguistics


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  9 14:58:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:58:52 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <20040309142923.78086.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:29 AM -0800 3/9/04, Ed Keer wrote:
>I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it
>was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in
>Philly, NJ, and NYC.
>
>Ed

Is that for [ho]mo, or mo[mentum]?  The latter has certainly been
around in a sports context for a while.  (I'm assuming, given the
region, that it wasn't being used to designate "The Big Mo[rmon]",
presumably Sean Bradley of BYU fame.)

larry horn

>
>--- David Bowie  wrote:
>>  From:    Dave Wilton 
>>
>>  : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American
>>  undergraduate days a few
>>  : years earlier (1981-85). There was no association
>>  with gay subculture. I
>>  : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school days.
>>  It was not as common
>>  : as 'rents was a few years later.
>>
>>  I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late 80s/early
>>  90s, MD and western PA),
>>  but I heard but didn't use 'rents.
>>
>>  When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo was
>>  occasionally used by the
>>  students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as
>>  short for "Mormon" (the
>>  student body there is about 98.6% Mormon, according
>>  to the shool's website).
>>  I always thought this was a fascinating clipping,
>>  since (like 'za) it's
>>  based entirely on orthography, not pronunciation.
>>
>>  David Bowie
>>  http://pmpkn.net/lx
>>      Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no
>>  chocolate in the
>>      house, there is too little; some must be
>>  purchased. If there is
>>      chocolate in the house, there is too much; it
>>  must be consumed.
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
>http://search.yahoo.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar  9 15:04:25 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:04:25 -0500
Subject: ambulance chaser
In-Reply-To: <88.54df79c.2d7f2dbc@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, James A. Landau wrote:

> Seriously, if you are interested in legal antedatings of the late 19th/early
> 20th century (I'm not), one place to look is "The Green Bag", which from 1889
> to 1914 pablished articles that "make an argument that merits more than a
> letter to the editor but fewer than fifty footnotes."  I don't know if it has been
> placed on-line.  It has recently been resurrected, see www.greenbag.org

The earliest occurrence in Green Bag is 1902.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar  9 15:10:38 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:10:38 -0500
Subject: Hoe
Message-ID: 

A friend of mine who grew up on a farm was puzzled by something he saw written on a wall near where I used to live. It read "(girl's name long since forgotten) is a hoe."

He wondered why it would be either a compliment or an insult to call a woman an agricultural implement until he realized that the writer didn't know how to spell ho, a shortened version of whore and didn't realize what he had done.

This brings up another problem with the word hoe.

Now it is possible that the phrase, "It's a tough road to hoe." refers to the days when gangs used to use hand tools to work on roads but I suspect that the original phrase was "It's a tough row to hoe." which makes more sense in an agricultural context but which city people never thought of when they misheard the sentence.

Having hoed a few tough rows in my life but having never hoed a road since that form of road maintenance went out except in rural areas before I was born even though when I grew up my hometown still used horse drawn wagons to repair roads I suspect that it is a simple misunderstanding due to mispronunciation.

Even though I was at one time in my life an expert marksman I didn't realize until I was in my twenties that you should not take everything someone tells you lock, stock and barrel and that a flash in the pan referred to anything but a baseball rookie who had a great spring training but who fizzled out once the real season began.

Page Stephens


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Mar  9 15:17:25 2004
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:17:25 -0500
Subject: starving the beast query
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I've done a bit of digging on this term. In the economic sense, I have
an early cite from the Washington Post, Oct. 21, 1985, attributed to
Stockman, but it could easily go back further (though it is the same
one Paul McFedries has at WordSpy, and likely where your colleague
found the information). I was more concerned with substantiating the
term's existence and meaning than I was with finding an absolute point
of origin.

In 1992, Sen. Moynihan said something which leads me to believe the
Reagan Presidential Library would be the best place to verify the
origin of the economic term, particularly in documents relating to the
transition team: "The first thing to know about the budget deficit is
that it was designed to paralyze domestic policy. I can testify that
this is difficult to comprehend. The policy--it was known in the inside
as 'starve the beast'--was put in place in the first months of the
Reagan administration, having been formulated the previous autumn."

There's also a joke I have seen repeatedly as explaining the skeptic's
view of "starve the beast" economics. In it, a man, thinking his mule
costs too much to feed, gradually cuts its food ration every day. One
day the man comes around without his mule and his friends ask, "Where's
the mule?" The man says, "Just when I got him down to eating nothing
every day, he up and died on me." I do not have cites for this joke.

These are probably false leads, but:

There is a story from Dial, June 1920, p. 693, which bears a similarity
to the "starve the beast" economics detractor's view, though it was
more concerned with obstructionist policies. In the tale, titled "A
Political Horse," said horse resists all attempts to move, whether it
be pulled, pushed, lifted, kicked, beat, lured with oats, flattered,
insulted, etc. It goes, "We decided finally that it was of no use and
the only weapon we had left to use was--starvation. We would starve the
beast until he stood upon his legs, realizing also that the more we
starved him, the less would he be able to stand on his legs." The horse
moves when bothered by an automobile, however.

"Starve the beast" was also used in the Twenties as part of an
anti-tuberculosis campaign. How widespread the campaign was, I do not
know. I have seen just a handful of ads for the campaign.

The cites below have the neither the frequency of occurence nor the
ring of a pat phrase like the economic or tubercular "starve the
beast."

An 1898 article in the Sandusky, Ohio, Morning Star about conditions in
Cuba reads, "Men are starved [there] as the laws of this land will not
allow the citizens to starve the beast."

Another cite from Dec. 1912 in the Sheboygan Press: "Can the most
learned savant of Harvard or the Sorbonne tell you anything new about
how to starve the beast and nourish the angel in you, anything Marcus
Aurelius or Saul of Tarsus had not told?"


On Mar 9, 2004, at 08:57, Allen D. Maberry wrote:

> I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast"
> used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in
> order to take money away from the federal administration and to
> increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce
> spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back
> to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s.
>
> Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it
> used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the
> phrase originate?
>
> Many thanks in advance for your help.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Oxford University Press

American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Mar  9 15:27:29 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:27:29 -0600
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: <003401c405e3$c49c28e0$be28bc3f@D552FS31>
Message-ID: 

At 9:35 -0500 9/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have uploaded
>in haste and repented at leisure.
>
>Page

Well, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. On the
other hand, strictly speaking, don't has never been standard for 3rd
person singular. The positive forms for 3rd person singular present
of do have been either doth or does. I can't think of a time when do
was standard for 3s.

What makes your friend think it was? Does s/he have any examples?

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barbara Need" 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:32 PM
>Subject: Re: doesn't/don't
>
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       Barbara Need 
>>  Subject:      Re: doesn't/don't
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>>
>>  At 11:04 -0500 8/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>>  >A friend of mine, Banjo Jan, has been bugging me about this subject
>>  >for the past month or so.
>>  >
>>  >I do not know the answer so I thought I would put it up on this list.
>>  >
>>  >Does anyone on this list know when "doesn't" replaced "don't" as the
>>  >first personal singular in correct usage?
>>
>>  It hasn't as far as I know.
>>
>>  You mean: I doesn't know who he is? I doesn't care about that? I
>>  can't say that.
>>
>>  Barbara Need
>>  UChicago--Linguistics


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Tue Mar  9 15:45:00 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:45:00 +0000
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> At 9:35 -0500 9/03/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>> I should have said third but then this is not the first time I have
>> uploaded in haste and repented at leisure.
>>
>> Page

then
Barbara Need  wrote:
> What makes your friend think it was? Does s/he have any examples?
> Barbara Need

It's not standard, but it's certainly widespread/old (which probably led to
the correspondent's friend thinking it must be old standard).  My
grandmother, who worked as a secretary and later in life authored a local
history book (so by no means an illiterate person), generally said
'he/she/it don't', and my father does in casual speech as well, and his
sisters say it even more frequently.   (My mother, who adored her
mother-in-law and who, incidentally, says 'between you and I', still hasn't
quite got over that she married into family that says 'it don't'...)

DARE has it as 'esp among speakers with little formal educ'--but apparently
not any particular region.

To my knowledge, such people don't say 'It do', but person agreement is
similarly lost in some dialects'/registers' negation of 'be'--i.e., _ain't_.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET  Tue Mar  9 16:53:13 2004
From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:53:13 -0800
Subject: starving the beast query
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

FWIW,

The Times, Tuesday, Dec 24, 1974; pg. 16; Issue 59278; col A
Babes in the Wood or Great Britain on Ice
Category: Business and Finance
A Financial Pantomime
...
Act I, sc 2:
The babes are still benighted, their miserable
belongings shrunk even smaller. Enter Denis the
Menace, who rushes up to the Babes, embracing
them with mock affection.
THE MENACE: "Why Babes!
What's this? You're fright-
     ened sore,
But shadows of yourselves of
     yore.
Come to my arms -- no need
     to shriek--
(Aside to audience): I'll
squeeze 'em till their last pips
     squeak!
The little dears! They've
     money yet--
Transfers of capital I'm set
To tax away. I'll clinch the
     squeeze
With surcharges on compan-
     ies.
I'll act on ACT and milk 'em
     dry.
What of Inflation? He roars
     high--
I'd best pretend to wear him
     down
With fiscal fusillade and
     frown--
But I'll not starve the beast
     in haste;
He might lay my consti-
     tuency to waste!"

At 07:17 AM 3/9/04, Grant wrote:
>I've done a bit of digging on this term. In the economic sense, I have
>an early cite from the Washington Post, Oct. 21, 1985, attributed to
>Stockman, but it could easily go back further (though it is the same
>one Paul McFedries has at WordSpy, and likely where your colleague
>found the information). I was more concerned with substantiating the
>term's existence and meaning than I was with finding an absolute point
>of origin.
>
>In 1992, Sen. Moynihan said something which leads me to believe the
>Reagan Presidential Library would be the best place to verify the
>origin of the economic term, particularly in documents relating to the
>transition team: "The first thing to know about the budget deficit is
>that it was designed to paralyze domestic policy. I can testify that
>this is difficult to comprehend. The policy--it was known in the inside
>as 'starve the beast'--was put in place in the first months of the
>Reagan administration, having been formulated the previous autumn."
>
>There's also a joke I have seen repeatedly as explaining the skeptic's
>view of "starve the beast" economics. In it, a man, thinking his mule
>costs too much to feed, gradually cuts its food ration every day. One
>day the man comes around without his mule and his friends ask, "Where's
>the mule?" The man says, "Just when I got him down to eating nothing
>every day, he up and died on me." I do not have cites for this joke.
>
>These are probably false leads, but:
>
>There is a story from Dial, June 1920, p. 693, which bears a similarity
>to the "starve the beast" economics detractor's view, though it was
>more concerned with obstructionist policies. In the tale, titled "A
>Political Horse," said horse resists all attempts to move, whether it
>be pulled, pushed, lifted, kicked, beat, lured with oats, flattered,
>insulted, etc. It goes, "We decided finally that it was of no use and
>the only weapon we had left to use was--starvation. We would starve the
>beast until he stood upon his legs, realizing also that the more we
>starved him, the less would he be able to stand on his legs." The horse
>moves when bothered by an automobile, however.
>
>"Starve the beast" was also used in the Twenties as part of an
>anti-tuberculosis campaign. How widespread the campaign was, I do not
>know. I have seen just a handful of ads for the campaign.
>
>The cites below have the neither the frequency of occurence nor the
>ring of a pat phrase like the economic or tubercular "starve the
>beast."
>
>An 1898 article in the Sandusky, Ohio, Morning Star about conditions in
>Cuba reads, "Men are starved [there] as the laws of this land will not
>allow the citizens to starve the beast."
>
>Another cite from Dec. 1912 in the Sheboygan Press: "Can the most
>learned savant of Harvard or the Sorbonne tell you anything new about
>how to starve the beast and nourish the angel in you, anything Marcus
>Aurelius or Saul of Tarsus had not told?"
>
>
>On Mar 9, 2004, at 08:57, Allen D. Maberry wrote:
>
>>I have a query from a colleague about the phrase "starving the beast"
>>used in economics which refers to the government policy of tax cuts in
>>order to take money away from the federal administration and to
>>increase the deficit, which, in turn, forces the government to reduce
>>spending. My colleague did a Google search and traced the phrase back
>>to Reagan budget advisor David Stockman in the early 1980s.
>>
>>Is that the first use of the expression in the economic sense? Is it
>>used in other contexts and if so what are they, and where did the
>>phrase originate?
>>
>>Many thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>allen
>>maberry at u.washington.edu
>>
>--
>Grant Barrett
>
>Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference
>Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
>Oxford University Press
>
>American Dialect Society webmaster
>http://www.americandialect.org/


/* James L. Knight, MLIS,
Thomson / Gale - West Region Support
james.knight at thomson.com

alt jlk at 3geckos.net */


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar  9 17:51:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:51:37 -0500
Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)
Message-ID: 

   Greetings from my half-hour lunch hour in the Bronx.  I just had a respondent named Hector.  It's a popular Greek name-or is it a popular Spanish name?
   I expect "Hector was a pup" to be in PUCK, but that's still not ready.  A peek at Newspaperarchive before I go back to work:

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Washington Post - 10/30/1910
...who built And piloted bAlloons wSen HECTOR WAS A PUP, lAt'tr1 cpnstrur'ted And.....GreAtest Middle weight Since Fitzsimmons. S WAS ALWAYS A J GENTLEMAN Fighter Whose CAreer..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Sunday, October 30, 1910  818 k

Washington Post - 4/14/1906
...hAs issued from the cAves of orAcle since HECTOR WAS A PUP. We commend it. forget the..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Saturday, April 14, 1906  1027 k


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Mar  9 18:18:50 2004
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:18:50 -0800
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Sorry, that was for [ho]mo, not mo[mentum].

Ed

--- Laurence Horn  wrote:
> At 6:29 AM -0800 3/9/04, Ed Keer wrote:
> >I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But
> it
> >was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was
> in
> >Philly, NJ, and NYC.
> >
> >Ed
>
> Is that for [ho]mo, or mo[mentum]?  The latter has
> certainly been
> around in a sports context for a while.  (I'm
> assuming, given the
> region, that it wasn't being used to designate "The
> Big Mo[rmon]",
> presumably Sean Bradley of BYU fame.)
>
> larry horn
>
> >
> >--- David Bowie  wrote:
> >>  From:    Dave Wilton 
> >>
> >>  : I recall 'rents (and 'za) from my American
> >>  undergraduate days a few
> >>  : years earlier (1981-85). There was no
> association
> >>  with gay subculture. I
> >>  : recall 'mo as a insult from my high school
> days.
> >>  It was not as common
> >>  : as 'rents was a few years later.
> >>
> >>  I don't recall 'mo as an undergrad (late
> 80s/early
> >>  90s, MD and western PA),
> >>  but I heard but didn't use 'rents.
> >>
> >>  When I was at Brigham Young U (1999-2003), Mo
> was
> >>  occasionally used by the
> >>  students (in a sort of in-group, joking way) as
> >>  short for "Mormon" (the
> >>  student body there is about 98.6% Mormon,
> according
> >>  to the shool's website).
> >>  I always thought this was a fascinating
> clipping,
> >>  since (like 'za) it's
> >>  based entirely on orthography, not
> pronunciation.
> >>
> >>  David Bowie
> >>  http://pmpkn.net/lx
> >>      Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is
> no
> >>  chocolate in the
> >>      house, there is too little; some must be
> >>  purchased. If there is
> >>      chocolate in the house, there is too much;
> it
> >>  must be consumed.
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
> >http://search.yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 10 00:20:16 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:20:16 -0500
Subject: Antedating of  'hard/tough row to hoe' ( 1829)
Message-ID: 

This was brought up by Page Stephens in his "hoe" message.

OED has 1835(Davy Crockett).

>From Am. Per. Series,  May, 1829, The American Monthly Magazine.  page 128
<>

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 10 00:30:33 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:30:33 -0500
Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)/ now 1904
Message-ID: 

NY Times, July 8, 1904 page 5

<>

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: 


> Washington Post - 4/14/1906
> ...hAs issued from the cAves of orAcle since HECTOR WAS A PUP. We commend
it. forget the..
> Washington, District Of Columbia   Saturday, April 14, 1906  1027 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 02:10:18 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:10:18 EST
Subject: Straight Dope (1905)
Message-ID: 

   Now that Sam's got ProQuest, maybe he can look into this.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Evening Gazette - 1/18/1905
...Covoue. of H. ana G W. Is Giving Us STRAIGHT DOPE By PAT SHEEDY. Gambler
Art.....Connoisseur AWSO2T is giving us some STRAIGHT DOPE, i HE IS TELLUSTG j
-TEE EXACT..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 18, 1905  702 k

Coshocton Daily Age - 4/18/1905
...Jeff that lie is In a real fight. That's STRAIGHT DOPE, and it's something
worth..
Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, April 18, 1905  921 k


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Mar 10 02:37:18 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:37:18 -0600
Subject: Does "hurler" predate 1906?
Message-ID: 

My thanx to Wayne McElreavy and Skip McAfee for their replies to my
forwarded query from Sam Clements concerning the earliest dating of
"hurler" (pitcher). I now share the two replies below. Dickson's
baseball dictionary gives 1908, but Sam Clements found an example
from 1906. Sam, if you could share your 1906 antedating with us, I'm
sure this would be much appreciated.

    Meanwhile, the two responses I received are reproduced below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen
P.S. for ads-l: Skip McAfee is Paul Dickson's assistant in preparing
new editions of his very useful baseball dictionary.


>From: "Wayne McElreavy" 
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Does "hurler" predate 1906?
>Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:20:13 -0500
>
>
>Here is a citation of hurler describing a hitter:
>
>LA Times, May 28, 1905. p. III2 "home-run hurlers"



>From: Skip McAfee 
>Subject: The Term "Hurler"
>
>Gerald:
>
>The earliest citation we have for "hurler" for the 3rd ed. of the
>Dickson Baseball Dictionary is April 5, 1907 (Chicago Tribune).
>
>However, Sports Illustrated (June 27, 1994), in an article on
>vintage base ball, wrote that a pitcher, circa 1858, was known as a
>"hurler".  The SABR Halsey Hall Chapter's vintage base ball team,
>the Quicksteps, following 1858 rules, notes that the pitcher is
>"called the 'hurler'."  Maybe one of the 19th Century SABR guys can
>point to an 1858 document that includes the term "hurler".
>
>What is your 1906 source?
>
>Skip McAfee
>xerxes7 at earthlink.net


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 10 03:43:51 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:43:51 -0500
Subject: Does "hurler" predate 1906?
Message-ID: 

21 August, 1906.  _Altoona(PA) Mirror_ 1/5
( A game between Williamport and Altoona--sc)

<>

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" 


> My thanx to Wayne McElreavy and Skip McAfee for their replies to my
> forwarded query from Sam Clements concerning the earliest dating of
> "hurler" (pitcher). I now share the two replies below. Dickson's
> baseball dictionary gives 1908, but Sam Clements found an example
> from 1906. Sam, if you could share your 1906 antedating with us, I'm
> sure this would be much appreciated.


From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Wed Mar 10 04:28:21 2004
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in
which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used
to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms
of political aspirations.

A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth
tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which
in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues --
depending on which end of the political spectrum you are speaking
from.  Rush Limbaugh's website uses this word in a way which is
strongly pejorative (and confusing to someone from outside the US, I
suspect).

Other potentially sensitive labels, with varying degrees of potency,
appear to include:
        multicultural(ism)
        abortion, pro-life, pro-choice
        big business
        big government
These seem to reflect different degrees of politicization as well.

I'd also like to know the potential spin status of
        civil rights
        progressive
        civil libertarian
- which are harder to pin down.

And there is the stack of terms related to gender-preference,
same-sex marriage and so on, which are more obviously prone to
polarization, both as issues and socio-lexically.

This is not just the matter of issues: what interests me is the use
of words to attempt to sloganize political aspirants, and thereby to
direct public opinion in certain ways.

Is this list accurate? I know it depends on where you stand and whom
you are trying to attack, but are there others?  Is there a study of
these sensitive terms? Is there a ranking or league table of the most
potentially damaging? How do the spin doctors politicize an issue (or
personal characteristic) to the point where its vocabulary can be
used as a weapon?

Roly Sussex

--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 04:43:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:43:13 -0500
Subject: Straight Dope (1904); Mojama (1992), Mosciame; Broccoflower (1989)
Message-ID: 

STRAIGHT DOPE

   Is "straight dope" turning 100?

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
MAYOR THINKS HE'S STILL "IT."; LOCAL POLITICS. SAYS THE NOMINATION WILL COME EASILY. Pronounces the World's Fair Pike Not so Bad as it is Said to be Democratio Mayorialty Candidates Come Out from Cover--Dark Horses Barred.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 23, 1904. p. 6 (1 page):
   "Me and Pinkey kin bring in a solid delegation.  We don't make two bites of it down there.  Farish is a nice young man, but his friends have got him in wrong.  This is straight dope I'm giving you and you can plank your money on it.  It's Savage for the Council and Pinkey for Mayor.  Why the children say that down our way.  They think it is a part of the catechism."

PAT SHEEDY FOR LAWSON.; " Those Fellows He Exposes Are Worse Gorillas Than I Am."
Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24, 1904. p. 1 (1 page):
   "Lawson," said Sheedy, "is giving us some straight dope.  He is telling the exact truth as I have seen it all my life. ..."

---------------------------------------------------------------
MOJAMA, MOSCIAME

MOJAMA--2,840 Google hits, 761 Google Groups hits
MOSCIAME--585 Google hits, 46 Google Groups hits

   OED recently did the letter "m."  You won't find "mojama" or "mosciame" there.
   From this week's VILLAGE VOICE:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0410/sietsema.php
My favorite dish, hands down, is duck egg with mojama. On a bed of mushroom-dressed fried potatoes sits an outsize sunny-side-up egg that bursts yellowly across the spuds when you cut into it. Around the periphery are curls of mojama, a dried tuna loin that originated in southern Spain.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.chowhound.com/boards/general10/messages/25845.html
Subject:     Preserved Tuna: mojama/mosciame
From:        pv-land-dev.com at worldnet.att.net (Jerome)
Posted:      February 17, 2002 at 23:25:28

Message:
 There was someone asking about this a while back and there was a very nice post with a recipe. But this is what I've found over the past few weeks, having eaten some myself.
Tuna, primarily yellowfin tuna, has been caught for centuries around Tarifa in the Costa de la Luz in Spain using a complicated tuna net trap called an almadraba. The tuna is processed by taking the loins (lomos) and salting and air-drying them like prosciutto/jamon serrano or bresaola. The name for this product is mojama from (according to http://www.vox.es/consultar.html) the Arabic almuxama, the dried. It is made in other parts of Spain, like Alicante, as well and is available in many places as a tapa (and can be purchased online and in Spanish import shops here).

With the Arabic influence, Sicily also makes mojama, called mosciame. It has been made in Sardinia as well and is sometimes used in Ligurian food, especially in the dish Cappon Magro, a fish(apparently Lenten) dish.

Non pc note, it seems that a mojama/mosciame was also prepared in the past of mammalian dolphin meat as well as of tuna (one or the other, you can't mix the meat). This is illegal today although one website shows a very distressing picture of a dolphin skeleton with the thought that the dolphin may have been butchered for black market dolphin mosciame (this was in Sardinia) which, acdg to the site, retailed for about one million Italian lire per kilogram.

By the way, tuna mojama is amazingly delicious, as tasty and interesting as a prosciutto or a bresaola but with hardly any fat (0.2 g of fat per 100 g). I'm amazed it's not more popular.


(FACTIVA)(36 "mojama" hits)
TAPAS BARS WITH PLENTY OF TASTE
Bryan Miller The New York Times
960 words
9 July 1992
Los Angeles Daily News
Valley
H2
(...)
The specialty here is home-cured sardine fillets that are better than most: firm, minimally salty and with a clean aftertaste. They are particularly good with pan y tomates and Xampanyet, the refreshing house sparkling wine. Try the excellent regional sausages and salami here as well as mojama, a firm, salty, dried tuna fillet.


(FACTIVA)(1 "mosciame" hit)
  Eating Out - Cosi fan tutte? If only.
By Terry Durack.
1,162 words
28 October 2001
Independent On Sunday
69
(...)
When Sardo first opened in Fitzrovia three years ago, it too did the better-safe-than-sorry Britalian thing with pasta, pizza and the like. More recently, the owner, Romolo Mudu, decided the time was right to make a stand for Sardinian food. He Sardinianed the decor of his small, quietly blond-wood restaurant, and with Sardinian-born Roberto Sardu in the kitchen, ditched the pizza to offer instead an authentic, absorbing listing that includes an elegant spaghetti with shavings of bottarga (dried grey mullet roe) and a grandmotherly dish of malloreddus (maggot-shaped semolina pasta) in a heady tomato and sausage ragu. A specials board lists mosciame di tonno (shavings of sun-dried tuna) one day, and a simple char-grilled swordfish the next.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BROCCOFLOWER

   Word Spy recently did "broccoflower."  That's been around; it's even in Wikipedia.  The earliest citation given is not the earliest.


http://www.wordspy.com/words/broccoflower.asp
Earliest Citation:

According to the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association, restaurants are finally jumping on the nutrition bandwagon. ... They foresee these trends: ...

More exotic fruits and veg ? like broccoflower (a cross between cauliflower and broccoli), wild mushrooms and all manner of squash.
?Marion Kane, "Peanut butter secret ingredient in stew contest winning recipe," The Toronto Star, March 21, 1990


(FACTIVA)
FOOD: SAFETY AND VARIETY TOP FOOD SCIENTISTS AGENDA. (FOOD SERVICE IN THE 90S; INCLUDES RELATED ARTICLES)
By Kathi Marshall and Nancy Backas and Nancy Ross Ryan
1,943 words
27 November 1989
Restaurants & Institutions
48
English
Copyright Cahners Publishing Co. 1989
(...)
Some research projects likely to result in practical applications during the '90s include: * Rice with more protein and better protein value through genetic manipulation. * Flour made from amaranth, an ancient grain with the potential to become a major food source because of its excellent nutritional qualities. * Eat-all melon, about the size of an egg or plum, that has an edible rind and is seedless. So far, the one species developed has a bright yellow rind, pink flesh and sweet melon flavor. The plan is to breed for longer shelf life with an eye toward being able to market the melon in vending machines. * Genetically altered cucumber plants that have virus genes designed to protect cucumbers from disease. * Black truffles grown under controlled conditions and ground into a powder or a thick paste. * A new commodity called a broccoflower, a genetic cross between a broccoli and a cauliflower. The flavor is closer to cauliflower, color and nutritional value closer to broccoli. * Four new blueberry varieties that have more intense flavor and can be harvested over a longer period. * A new nutritious snack food called nunas, colorful beans that pop after cooking a few minutes in oil, hot air or in the microwave. * Citrus fruit that is vacuum-infused and then injected with a natural enzyme that dissolves the white, fleshy substance between the fruit and the peel, making the fruit easy to peel.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 05:53:16 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:53:16 -0500
Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!)
Message-ID: 

PARBAKE/PAR BAKE

PARBAKE--273 Google hits, 109 Google Groups hits
PAR BAKE--633 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits
PARBAKING--25 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits
PAR BAKING--124 Google hits, 25 Google Groups hits


(OED)
parbake, v.
nonce-wd.
    trans. To bake partially, half bake.
  1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot and so glaring that very few people were about; a few par-baked figures went quickly by.


   This is the "parbaking" story in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/dining/10BREA.html
(...)
Those loaves seemed as crusty and aromatic as Mr. Amaral's handmade breads. The hands that made them, though, were in a factory in New Jersey, where the bread was partly baked and flash frozen in a process called parbaking. Days, weeks or perhaps months ago, the frozen bread was shipped to Hannaford's. This morning, a few minutes in the steel ovens produced bread to order.

Over the last four years, a few big parbaking companies have brought supermarket shoppers around the country so-called artisan breads. Sales of the breads ? hand-formed, all-natural, dark-crusted loaves once found only in small bake shops ? rose 10 percent last year, according to Mintel Consumer Intelligence, a market-research company, even as the rest of the industry cowered before the low-carb onslaught.

But many bakers say that parbaking creates artisanal bread without the artisan and that bread makers in several communities have been driven out of business after supermarkets started selling parbaked loaves.

Mr. Amaral said he has held his own in the face of the competition. But looking over the massed loaves in Hannaford's bakery department, he concedes that it has been tough. "Customers really have to run the gantlet to find our bread," he said. "I believe that they want to buy local, real artisanal bread. I just hope that they can find it."

What is at stake nationwide is an almost $2 billion slice of the $16 billion bread industry. Last year, sales of artisanal and artisan-style bread in supermarkets and big chains nationwide grew faster than any other part of the bread business: four times faster than the business as a whole, and almost 20 times faster than white bread, according to Mintel. (Bread sales have not fallen in the face of low-carb eating, but they have leveled off.)

Looking for a walnut-rosemary boule in Honolulu? Ralph's, a supermarket, probably baked some this morning. Kalamata olive bread in Kalamazoo? Try Harding's, which can bake a fresh loaf while you finish shopping. Costco stores bake ciabattas and crusty raisin-walnut loaves.

"Foccacia, levain, ciabatta, ficelles ? 10 years ago, who knew what a ficelle was?" said Sue Brooks, who is the bakery director for the King Kullen chain on Long Island. "Now customers will come to the counter and say, `You only have baguettes; what happened to the b?tards?' "

Parbaking holds benefits for supermarkets and their customers. For the stores, it means lower costs. Since they bake only what they can sell, there is less waste. For customers, it means great selection, and they seem as willing to pay premium prices ? as much as $5 a loaf in some markets ? as are customers of artisan-bread shops. (...)
(OT:  OED, how about "ficelle"?--ed.)


(FACTIVA)("Par baking"--38 hits)
PIZZA PROFITS HINGE ON QUALITY OF BASICS. (INCLUDES RELATED ARTICLE ON CHOOSING PIZZA CHEESES) (FOOD SERVICE CONFERENCE)
By Roseanne Harper
725 words
28 September 1992
Supermarket News
42
(...)
Randall's layers crusts with shredded cheese before par-baking. "When we top it later, the cheese cover prevents topping juices from seeping into the crust," Quintanilla said.


(FACTIVA)("Parbaking"--10 hits)
Bobby Rubino's ribs can't lick local favorites // Barbecued shrimp fare better in Westmont
Don Rose
762 words
23 August 1985
Chicago Sun-Times
FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL
41
(...)
The problem with these ribs is fundamentally texture. There is the spongy feeling and somewhat flat taste that comes from parbaking (or parboiling) ribs before finishing them over the open charcoal grill.


(FACTIVA)
Rising up.(baked and snack foods)(Statistical Data Included)
DOUG BURN
1,901 words
1 January 2000
Food in Canada
26
ISSN: 1188-9187; Volume 60; Issue 1
(...)
With par-bake an artisan or a commercial bakery partially bakes and then freezes items, which are shipped to in-store bakeries or foodservice outlets for final preparation. Par-baked bagels were introduced in the mid-'80s and baguettes in the mid-'90s by the commercial bakeries. Backerhaus Veit and other artisan operations began introducing a wider range of sweet and savory goods in par-baked format in the early '90s. (...)


(FACTIVA)
Buffalo-Based Bakery's Ontario, Canada, Plant Marks Fortieth Anniversary
By Kevin Purdy, The Buffalo News, N.Y.
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
733 words
16 September 2003
The Buffalo News (KRTBN)
English
Copyright (C) 2003 KRTBN Knight Ridder Tribune Business News

Sep. 16--When Rich Products Corp. began its first operations in Fort Erie 40 years ago, the small plant had just three employees, and Robert Rich Jr. went out to personally pitch products to bakeries and other customers.

On Monday, representatives from the Buffalo-based company and Ontario government officials celebrated that anniversary with the completion of an $11.5 million (U.S.) expansion of the plant, one that creates 36 jobs and which company officials believe will make both Rich Products and Fort Erie the leader in partially baked breads and rolls.

Howard Rich, president and COO of Rich Products Canada, said the plant is expected to produce over 1 million cases of over 45 partially-baked -- or "par-bake" -- bread products in 2004, a number he expects to grow as demand for value-added products grows.

"We're not only going to grow the par-bake business, but dominate the par-bake business in North America," said Rich, who is not an immediate relative of the company's owners. "This shows our belief in the strength of the Canadian marketplace."

The Fort Erie plant, which opened in 1963 and now employs 268 people making breads, pizza dough and other baked goods, was expanded by 22,000 square feet to a total of 132,000, making room for $7 million in new equipment. In 2002, the plant was shipping about 3.8 million cases.

The par-bake goods coming off the Fort Erie bakery's lines are 80 to 90 percent finished, and will allow Tim Horton's, Subway, supermarket bakeries, and other Rich Products customers to thaw and bake breads and rolls in about 15 minutes, as opposed to two hours for standard bakery dough.

Bill Gisel, chief operating officer of Rich Products, said the expansion was planned with an eye on ensuring additional space would be available as the par-bake market grows.

"There's a demand for more convenient foods at the store and the consumer level, and par-baked is what a lot of stores are demanding right now. That trend is expected to grow, and we'll be ready to grow with it," said Gisel. (...)


(FACTIVA)("Par-bake"--85 hits)
FINISHED PRODUCTS MAY REDRESS LABOR SHORTAGE. (SOME SUPERMARKET BAKERIES ADDING FINISHED PRODUCTS FROM OUTSIDE SUPPLIERS)
By Judith Springer
1,381 words
25 September 1989
Supermarket News
39
(...)
"There's lots of alternatives that you can get away with," Migliara said. "The retailers wanting to open a bakery will have to ask themselves, `Do I go into bake off, thaw-and-sell, par-bake, or sit out for the next five years.'"

However, opinions are mixed over whether thaw-and-sell and par-baked programs offer the quality and consistency that retailers want.

"Today, your par-baked products are very, very consistent, and you have some very good quality," said Bob Hirsch, corporate bakery buyer, Foodarama Supermarkets, Freehold, N.J. "There's very few items today that are not quality in the par-baked category. It's a lower gross profit, but it's definitely a labor savings. (...)

---------------------------------------------------------------
DORGAN ON _JOURNAL-AMERICAN_ (!)
("Hot dog," continued)

   A recent article stated that "Dargan" was a cartoonist on the NEW YORK TIMES--a newspaper that doesn't have cartoons.
   This "hot dog" article just this week states that Dorgan was writing on the 1906 NEW YORK JOURNAL-AMERICAN--a newspaper that would not even exist until 1941.


(NEXIS)
Copyright 2004 The San Diego Union-Tribune
The San Diego Union-Tribune

March 6, 2004 Saturday

SECTION: LIFESTYLE; Pg. E-7

LENGTH: 585 words

HEADLINE: We pause to relish the hallowed hot dog

BYLINE: Don Freeman

BODY:


The most mouth-wateringly delicious hot dog I have ever tasted was one I ate on a particular night in Dodger Stadium. How pleasing to the taste buds that hot dog was. It still reigns in my memory, this hot dog with all the condiments such as mustard, relish and, to enhance its personality, a smattering of onions.

I may have mentioned previously that my affection for the Dodgers is severely limited. By my vote, and I should note that I never heard Red Barber in his prime, Vin Scully, the Dodgers' broadcaster, must rank in his line of work as the best there is and perhaps the best there ever was. Now retired to La Jolla, Buzzie Bavasi wins recognition for having brought the Dodgers his own stature in his time as general manager.

Otherwise, if we're talking about the Dodgers it is only the hot dogs in their playpen that merit praise from me. My claim to expertise is the fact that I have eaten hot dogs in major-league ballparks here and there.

I have eaten adequate hot dogs in Wrigley Field and in Yankee Stadium and in Shea Stadium in New York and in Boston's Fenway Park, too. You may recall that it was at Fenway, in "Field of Dreams," where James Earl Jones is asked what he wants. "A dog and a beer," he says.

Now that is beautiful. A dog and a beer. That is what I will have, too.

Legend tells us that the term itself, hot dog, was conceived in 1906 by a superb sports cartoonist named Tad Dorgan who came out of San Francisco and brought his pen to Hearst's old New York Journal American. They say that Dorgan, an imaginative fellow, sketched a dachshund inside an elongated bun. But, the tale goes, Dorgan did not know how to spell dachshund and disdained a dictionary. Accordingly, he wrote the term "hot dog" instead.

Good story but perhaps fanciful. As told by the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, the term hot dog was coined in 1901 at the Polo Grounds, which in that era was the home field at various times for both the New York Yankees and the New York Giants. On a chilly April day, concessionaire Harry Stevens was losing money trying to sell ice cream and cold drinks. Whereupon Stevens ordered his vendors to buy up all the "dachshund" sausages they could and insert them into soft rolls.

The vendors shouted: "They're red hot! Get your dachshund sausages while they're red hot!" It is said that Dorgan observed the vendors and later, working on deadline, he drew his historic cartoon.

Other stories abound on the subject. The famed newspaperman, author and lexicographer H.L. Mencken, known as the Sage of Baltimore, once wrote: "I devoured hot dogs in Baltimore way back in 1886, and they were then very far from newfangled. They contained precisely the same rubber, indigestible pseudo-sausages that millions of Americans now eat, and they leaked the same flabby mustard."

On June 11, 1939, President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his first lady, Eleanor, were hosts at a picnic in Hyde Park, N.Y., to the visiting King George VI of England and Queen Elizabeth. The Roosevelts served Nathan's hot dogs and beer to the royals. It was reported that the king was so pleased by the hot dog that he requested a second helping.

When, you ask, was a hot dog first sold at a ballgame? The tradition, they say, was begun around 1893 by one Chris Von de Ahe, owner of the St. Louis Browns, whose fans delighted in putting away a dog and a beer.

Don Freeman can be reached by fax at (619) 260-5093; or at mailto:don.freeman at uniontrib.com; or at the Union-Tribune, P.O. Box 120191, San Diego, CA 92112-0191.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 08:04:56 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:04:56 -0500
Subject: Must be jelly (1942); White on rice (1976)
Message-ID: 

   From the extra databases.

---------------------------------------------------------------
MUST BE JELLY

(OCLC WORDLCAT)
It must be jelly : 'cause jam don't shake like that /
Author: MacGregor, J. C. 1903-; Williams, George, Publication: New York, N.Y. : Mutual Music Society, 1942 In: WFAA collection.
Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music : Popular music

---------------------------------------------------------------
WHITE ON RICE

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Taking a Lesson From The Good Old Boys; The election of Jimmy Carter brings to center stage that uniquely Southern creature, the Good Old Boy, or Goodoboy. The Goodoboy is as close to the President-elect as his own brother Billy, whose down-home air, unashamed affection for beer and intimate knowledge of gas-pumping and peanutfarming in Plains, Ga., all mark him as an archetype. The writer, Clarke J. "Bubba" Stallworth, is the city editor of the Birmingham (Ala.) News. The Good Old Boys
By C.J. Stallworth. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 7, 1976. p. 93 (2 pages)
First page:
   A Goodoboy doesn't get mad often, but when he does, he will knock you winding.  If he says: "I'll be on you like a duck on a Junebug," or "like white in rice," or "like ugly on a ape" look out.
   The most important part of the convention will be seminars in language.
(See BOY, K2, Col.3)
We will teach visitors words like FIESYOU (as in, "I wouldn't do that, fiesyou"), JEETCHET (or, "Have you eat?") and RATCHEER (this is not what rats do at a football game; use it in this context: "Come over and sit ratcheer by me").

2. How Dare She Dazzle, But She Does; Rina Myers -- Haw Dare She Dazzle, but She Does
By Vertamae GrosvenorSpecial to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 1, 1979. p. D1 (2 pages)


(LITERATURE ONLINE)
Cliff, Michelle.:  A Visit from Mr. Botha [from The Land of Look Behind: prose and poetry (1985), Firebrand Books]

1          Perhaps, he thinks, they could use some advice
2          Before the Black folks are all over them
3          like white on rice.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 16:06:11 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:06:11 EST
Subject: 'mo = homo
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:29:23 -0800,  Ed Keer edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
comments:
>
>  I remember using 'mo at least in the early 90s. But it
>  was always used in the phrase 'big 'mo.' This was in
>  Philly, NJ, and NYC.

If I remember correctly, "big mo" was a catch-phrase of G. Herbert Walker
Bush in his unsuccessful race for the Republican presidential nomination in 1980.
 "Mo" (no preceding apostrophe) was short for "momentum", which, as it turned
out, GHWB did not have.

IN the very early 1980's I saw a movie on TV about a female tennis star whose
nickname was "Little Mo".  My recollection is that "Little Mo" was derived
from "Mighty Mo", the nickname for the battleship USS Missouri (launched in 1942
or 1943).

      - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 16:21:39 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:21:39 EST
Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)
Message-ID: 

Hector was of course in the Iliad, which dates him as circa 1200 BCE.
However, the name "Hector" occurs earlier in Linear B tablets, suggesting that Homer
(or someone) attached a Greek name to a Trojan prince whose name (if he
existed) had been forgotten.

It is, I believe, merely one variant of a number of similar expressions, such
as
- since Jesus was a lance corporal
- since God was a little boy
- since xxx was a raw recruit

The first is US Marines, of course.  A Baptist friend re-rendered it as
"since Jesus was lanced corporally."  The third is also military, and I have heard
several names inserted for "xxx".

     - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 10 17:18:02 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:18:02 EST
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

In a message dated  Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000,  "Prof. R. Sussex"
 writes:

>  As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in
>  which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used
>  to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms
>  of political aspirations.

I cannot believe that a linguist of your experience would be so naive as to
think that the USA has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels.  Consider
"Papist" in English history, or the way during World War I that the House of
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had to change its name.

>  A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth
>  tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which
>  in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues

You forget that there is no national political party in the USA named
"Liberal", nor is there one named "Conservative".  (There is one of each in New York
State, but neither has any presence outside New York.)  Hence "liberal" and
"conservative" are not constrained to be applied only to formal members of
formal parties, but rather apply ONLY to ideas/ideologies/biases/prejudices.

The problem with the term "liberal" in the USA is that it has long been
overtaken by events.  The meaning of the term, in US politics, was fairly clear
during say Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration (1933-1945).  But that was more
than two generations ago.  Many of the political battles of Roosevelt's day
are no longer relevant, whereas many of today's issues were not even thought of
in his day.  Unfortunately the word "liberal" has been forced to stay in use
all these years.

Result:  the term "liberal" is no longer meaningful, due to being obsolete.
Example:  most people consider President Clinton to be a "liberal", yet far
from being "tax-and-spend" he put a lot of effort into cutting budget deficits.
By the standards of US politics, that made him a conservative (at least on
this issue).  Yet many of the people who supported Clinton considered themselves
to be liberals, and many of
those who opposed him considered themselves conservatives.

So we have the sight of numerous Clinton-supporters who insist on naming
themselves with the meaningless label "liberal".  Not surprisingly, their
opponents pick up on this self-label, so to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect.

Let me repeat the above paragraph. So we have the sight of numerous
Clinton-dislikers who insist on naming themselves with the meaningless label
"conservative".  Not surprisingly, their opponents pick up on this self-label, so to
them "conservative" is a term of disrespect.

What we have is two sets of partisans, each picking up on an obsolete label
self-chosen by their opponents and turning this label into a perjorative term.

NB: you may not be aware of this, but in the USA "conservative" is every bit
as perjorative as "liberal".


>  I'd also like to know the potential spin status of
>          civil rights
>          progressive
>          civil libertarian
>  - which are harder to pin down.

"Civil rights" is NOT an obsolete term like "liberal".  It has, and has had
since at least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations".

"Progressive" was a widely-used term in the early 20th century, when it
referred to such things as women voting and Prohibition.  It then, for reasons
unclear to me, dropped out of general usage, last appearing in the national
consicousness in the Progressive Party of 1948.  However, note the "Progressive
Conservative Party" in Canada.

"Civil libertarian" is almost a non-word, since the term "civil liberties" is
almost always associated with the often-controversial American Civil
Liberties Union, which has been very active since at least the 1920's.   If the ACLU
is not involved, then the term "civil liberties" doesn't get used.

               - James A. Landau


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Wed Mar 10 17:19:12 2004
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:19:12 -0600
Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

It relates to the Fenimore Cooper Leatherstocking Series.  As Natty
Bumpo grows old and wanders around  the prairie, so does his dog
Hector, whom I always thought ended up as toothless as his master.  I
don't remember if the phrase actually appears in any of the novels.
But I'm fairly certain I've read about origin of the phrase before--
can't remember where.
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:21:39 EST
 "James A. Landau"  wrote:
> Hector was of course in the Iliad, which dates him as circa 1200 BCE.
> However, the name "Hector" occurs earlier in Linear B tablets,
suggesting that Homer
> (or someone) attached a Greek name to a Trojan prince whose name (if
he
> existed) had been forgotten.
>
> It is, I believe, merely one variant of a number of similar
expressions, such
> as
> - since Jesus was a lance corporal
> - since God was a little boy
> - since xxx was a raw recruit
>
> The first is US Marines, of course.  A Baptist friend re-rendered it
as
> "since Jesus was lanced corporally."  The third is also military, and
I have heard
> several names inserted for "xxx".
>
>      - James A. Landau


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Mar 10 17:51:41 2004
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:51:41 -0500
Subject: architecting
Message-ID: 

Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a
job posted by an investment firm:

"Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."


Wendalyn Nichols


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Wed Mar 10 17:58:14 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:58:14 -0600
Subject: architecting
In-Reply-To: <20040310174844.ZSMQ26459.sccmgwc02.mchsi.com@sccmgwc02.asp.att.net>
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Wendalyn Nichols
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:52 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: architecting
>
> Anyone else run across this verb?

I first heard it in the late 1980s while working in the software bizniz, as
a trendy replacement for "designing."

Bill Le May
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.610 / Virus Database: 390 - Release Date: 3/3/2004


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Mar 10 18:01:59 2004
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (Vida J Morkunas)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:01:59 -0800
Subject: architecting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040310124941.02742370@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

In IT, architecting = building a systems architecture, eg a detailed plan
for a new software system.

In this case, 'architecting' appears to be a synonym for 'designing'

Vida.


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Wendalyn Nichols
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:52 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: architecting

Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a
job posted by an investment firm:

"Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."


Wendalyn Nichols


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 10 18:23:02 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:23:02 -0800
Subject: subject-verb agreement
Message-ID: 

the latest addition to my (large and still growing) collection of
english usage manuals, handbooks, and dictionaries -- Fowler [H.
Ramsey, not H.W.] & Aaron, The Little, Brown Handbook (8th ed., 2001)
-- arrived in the mail not long ago, and when i unwrapped it, it fell
open to p. 337, where the following rule for subject-verb agreement
(the fourth of eleven such rules, some with several subparts) is
enunciated:

   (0)
   "When parts of a subject are joined by _or_ or _nor_, the verb
   agrees with the nearer part."

there are three clauses:

   (1)
   "When all parts of a subject joined by _or_ or _nor_ are singular,
   the verb is singular; when all parts are plural, the verb is plural"

   (2)
   "When one part of the subject is singular and the other plural,
   avoid awkwardness by placing the plural part closer to the verb
   so that the verb is plural"

   (3)
   "When the subject consists of nouns and pronouns of different
   person requiring different verb forms, the verb agrees with the
   nearer part of the subject.  Reword if this construction is awkward"

now, this is a topic i've thought about, off and on,for some time, so i
read this advice with some interest.  six comments.

(a) the handbook doesn't actually say what the problem is, and the way
the solutions are presented conceals it.  the fact is that clause (1)
(slightly amended, to get the person issue out of the way) is utterly
uncontroversial; i'm not aware of variation on this point, and i doubt
that anyone needs to be told what to do when confronted by disjunctive
subjects of the same number (and person).  clauses (2) and (3),
however, treat circumstances where there is actual variation, and where
writers are often genuinely puzzled; here's where the problem lies, in
disjunctive subjects that differ in number or person (with verbs that
show these differences morphologically).

(in general, i think it's a mistake for manuals to treat
uncontroversial facts and disputed usage as covered by "rules" of the
same sort.)

now, extrapolating from the clear cases in (1), we can frame the
general principle:
   Disjunctive Agreement (DA): with a disjunctive subject, the verb
agrees
     with *each* of the disjuncts.
DA covers the cases in (1) and also (correctly) predicts that the cases
in (2) and (3) are problematic -- because they give rise to conflicts
as to which verb form to choose:
   Either my friends or my next-door neighbor ?are/?is going to have to
help.
   Either you or I ?are/?am going to have to help.
DA also makes sense semantically; each disjunct is interpreted
separately as the subject of the verb (in contrast to conjunction,
where the conjuncts taken together are interpreted as the subject of
the verb).

why doesn't the handbook explain at least some of this?  no way to tell
for sure, but possibly because of the unclarities in its notion of
"subject".  for the purposes of rule (0) (and for the corresponding
rule for conjunction), the subject is the *whole* subject, which has
"parts"; by talking merely about "parts", instead of saying that these
subjects are compound and have multiple subjects as their parts, the
handbook avoids the whole area of constructs of type X that have
multiple parts of type X, a notion that many people find mind-bending.
in addition, it's quite clear from the discussion of other examples
that elsewhere what counts as the subject is a single word -- the *head
word* of the subject, in modern syntactic terminology --  and the
authors of the handbook might have wanted not to draw attention to
their shifting use of the word "subject", so they didn't delve into
details.

in any case, it would probably have been useful to explain to the
reader that the problem in situations (2) and (3) is a conflict between
conditions imposed by the grammar of english, and that nothing else in
that grammar resolves the conflict.

(b) the handbook tries to cover all the situations might arise, and
with a single principle.

reasoning on first principles, you might think that if there is a
conflict between conditions, then the construction is simply blocked.
on the other hand, blocking frustrates the expression of content, so
that reasoning on other first principles, you might think that
conflicts are usually resolved.  indeed, Optimality Theory takes off
from the claim that one condition usually "wins", outranks the others
(so that expressibility is served as much as possible).  OT-style
analyses are natural when the conditions in question can be ranked with
respect to one another -- but the problem with DA is that we have no
independently motivated way of picking out the winning disjunct, so
that if there's to be resolution, it must be on the basis of some
*extra* principle.  the handbook provides such a principle -- agreement
with the nearest disjunct (AND) -- that is supposed to cover all the
cases, including the uncontroversial cases in (1).

now, there is some precedent for claiming that DA conflicts are
irresolvable.  charles fillmore suggested, many years ago, that some
conflicts (these in particular) produced gaps in the predictions of the
grammar, analogous to paradigm gaps in morphology.  there are some
things you just can't say.  and, in fact, a great many speakers are
deeply uncomfortable with *any* resolution of the conflicts in (2) and
(3).  given that, the best advice to a careful writer would probably be
to avoid the situations that give rise to DA conflicts.  (there's no
point in being "technically" correct, if what you write is going to
annoy or baffle a significant number of your readers.)

(c) the handbook assumes that there is exactly one right way to do
anything.  not only doesn't it allow for zero right ways -- blocking --
but it doesn't allow for alternatives, either.  yet when you collect
judgments from speakers, some of them are equally happy with more than
one resolution of DA conflicts (and different speakers sometimes prefer
different alternatives).  alternatives are all over the place in
languages, and it seems gratuitous to insist that the *grammar* of a
language should always pick out One Right Way.

(d) there is evidence, in the handbook's own discussion, for a
resolution principle different from AND.

the crucial point here is that clause (2) has the writer *reword*
sentences so that sg+pl disjuncts will have plural agreement:
   "Awkward   Neither the owners nor the contractor agrees.
    Revised     Neither the contractor nor the owners agree."
that is, the handbook prefers agreement with the higher number (AHN),
but only in combination with the resolution principle it prescribes,
AND.

the fact is, when you collect judgments (and examples from corpora)
some speakers resolve via AND, regardless of the order of the
disjuncts:
   Neither the owners nor the contractor agree.

indeed, some speakers resolve by agreement with the higher person
(AHP), so that instead of rewording to avoid "awkwardness" in the way
that the handbook prescribes:
   "Awkward   Either Juarez or I am responsible.
    Revised     Either Juarez is responsible, or I am."
the speakers can resolve without rewording:
    Either Juarez or I is responsible.

(e) there is evidence, in speaker judgments and examples from corpora,
for still another solution to DA conflicts in the singular: defaulting
to 3rd person sg.  that is, examples like the following can be found,
and some speakers find them acceptable:
   Neither you nor I is responsible.

though the evidence from actual usage is quite complex, the handbook
recognizes only AND.  now, agreement with the nearest (disjunct or
conjunct), case-marking by the nearest, and determination of governed
verb form by the nearest are all attested in various languages as the
*standard* resolutions of conflicts, so that AND for english wouldn't
be extraordinary from a crosslinguistic point of view.  but then
neither would principled resolutions of other sorts, or defaulting, or
blocking, for that matter.  all are attested, and often there's dialect
variation with respect to the details.  the point is that AND is in no
way privileged on the basis of first principles or crosslinguistic
considerations.  nor is it strongly supported by the evidence from
actual usage.  as i said above, the best advice to the careful writer
is probably: don't go there!

(f) the handbook falls back on appeals to "awkwardness" (cited above).
  similar appeals -- to "euphony" or "smoothness" or "naturalness" or
what "sounds right (or wrong)", that is, to some sort of sprachgefuehl
-- are astonishingly common in works of advice for writers.  (writers
are fairly often told to avoid stranded prepositions -- unless they'd
sound right!)  they are problematic: after all, if the readers already
had a feel for what is awkward vs. effective, smooth, etc., they
wouldn't need the handbook.

now, the handbook does provide (a few, well, two) exemplars of what
counts as "awkward" in the world of DA sentences, but provides no hint
as to how to extrapolate from them.

i understand that writing is an art and craft, and that teaching by
exemplars ("do as i do" or "do as she does") is both honorable and
effective.  in that context, it's best to avoid rigid arbitrary "rules"
in most situations.  you may choose to accept such conventions, as when
you propose to write a sonnet or a haiku, but otherwise it's a matter
of developing a feel for what is likely to work and what isn't.  in
this context, some analysis of the nature of the choices involved can
be very useful to the learner.

*but*, as i've said here several times before, it's a bad move to
elevate advice about effective choices to claims about the grammar of
english -- in this case, to insist that AND (or any other of the
schemes for dealing with DA conflicts) is just a rule of english
grammar.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Mar 10 18:41:44 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:41:44 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
Message-ID: 

I recall reading a biography of an English dealer in high-end hunting rifles and shotguns who also frequented the theater.  One night he went to see a well reviewed play about Napoleon, and could see from his orchestra seat that Napoleon's army was equipt with an assortment of target and hunting guns, mostly dating to the mid and late 19th C.  When he got home he wrote a blistering letter to the Times deploring the sad decline of the British Theatre.

I can only hope that he had better luck in getting the Times of London to print this letter than our Barry has had with the NYTimes.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Geoffrey Nunberg 
Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 0:48 am
Subject: Re: obscene words from "Deadwood"

> Thanks for this, Jesse, and to Dennis, Dale et al. for the other
> comments. Of course we linguists are apt to be more put off by these
> anachronisms than other people. I think of the  story about Edith
> Head, the famous Hollywood costume designer, who as she was walking
> out of "Oklahoma!" remarked to her companion: "I don't see what all
> the fuss is about. The hems are two inches thick!"
>
> Geoff
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Mar 10 19:10:20 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:10:20 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: <20da9f320df00c.20df00c20da9f3@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 01:41:44PM -0500, George Thompson wrote:
>
> I recall reading a biography of an English dealer in
> high-end hunting rifles and shotguns who also frequented the
> theater.  One night he went to see a well reviewed play
> about Napoleon, and could see from his orchestra seat that
> Napoleon's army was equipt with an assortment of target and
> hunting guns, mostly dating to the mid and late 19th C.
> When he got home he wrote a blistering letter to the Times
> deploring the sad decline of the British Theatre.

I think that writing letters to the Times or the BBC about
even very slight inaccuracies in (esp. military) costuming
in historical dramas is a stereotypical British thing to do.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Mar 10 19:12:16 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500
Subject: architecting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040310124941.02742370@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
> Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a
> job posted by an investment firm:
>
> "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
> architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
> talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."

As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software
industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry
has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of
examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense
'to design' or 'to plan'.

Best,

Jesse
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 10 19:14:40 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:18 PM -0500 3/10/04, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated  Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:21 +1000,  "Prof. R. Sussex"
> writes:
>
>>   As an observer from outside the US, I am intrigued by the way in
>>   which neutral words in my political context (Australia) can be used
>>   to attack a candidate in the US, perhaps fatally, at least in terms
>>   of political aspirations.
>
>I cannot believe that a linguist of your experience would be so naive as to
>think that the USA has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels.

Very true, but some of the points below are not without spin. For example,

(1)  I think most American observers would disagree with the claim
that 'in the USA "conservative" is every bit as perjorative as
"liberal"'; for whatever reasons (and discerning the reasons would
itself be an exercise in controversy), "conservative" is not as
pejorative as "liberal", and hasn't been for a couple of decades.  No
Republicans run away from the former label (which is not deemed the
"C-word"), while Democrats--AND Republicans--have been shunning "the
L word" (and not in the new Showtime sense) for decades.  In fact,
"progressive" is sometimes used instead.

(2)  If the term 'civil rights' indeed  "has, and has had since at
least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations"', we
wouldn't be able to now debate, as we do, civil rights for gays and
other minority groups.  Granted, the racial references do
predominate, but I don't think there has been true semantic narrowing
here.

(3)  A quick and dirty google inspection suggests that the claim that
_civil liberties_ "is almost always associated with the
often-controversial American Civil Liberties Union" may be accurate
if "almost always" conveys about 20-25% of the time.

larry horn, knee-jerk liberal



>   Consider
>"Papist" in English history, or the way during World War I that the House of
>Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had to change its name.
>
>>   A prime example is "liberal", which in the British/Commonwealth
>>   tradition is a respected label for centre-right politics, but which
>>   in the US can sound like a suspect softness on policy issues
>
>You forget that there is no national political party in the USA named
>"Liberal", nor is there one named "Conservative".  (There is one of
>each in New York
>State, but neither has any presence outside New York.)  Hence "liberal" and
>"conservative" are not constrained to be applied only to formal members of
>formal parties, but rather apply ONLY to ideas/ideologies/biases/prejudices.
>
>The problem with the term "liberal" in the USA is that it has long been
>overtaken by events.  The meaning of the term, in US politics, was
>fairly clear
>during say Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration (1933-1945).  But
>that was more
>than two generations ago.  Many of the political battles of Roosevelt's day
>are no longer relevant, whereas many of today's issues were not even
>thought of
>in his day.  Unfortunately the word "liberal" has been forced to stay in use
>all these years.
>
>Result:  the term "liberal" is no longer meaningful, due to being obsolete.
>Example:  most people consider President Clinton to be a "liberal", yet far
>from being "tax-and-spend" he put a lot of effort into cutting
>budget deficits.
>By the standards of US politics, that made him a conservative (at least on
>this issue).  Yet many of the people who supported Clinton
>considered themselves
>to be liberals, and many of
>those who opposed him considered themselves conservatives.
>
>So we have the sight of numerous Clinton-supporters who insist on naming
>themselves with the meaningless label "liberal".  Not surprisingly, their
>opponents pick up on this self-label, so to them "liberal" is a term
>of disrespect.
>
>Let me repeat the above paragraph. So we have the sight of numerous
>Clinton-dislikers who insist on naming themselves with the meaningless label
>"conservative".  Not surprisingly, their opponents pick up on this
>self-label, so to
>them "conservative" is a term of disrespect.
>
>What we have is two sets of partisans, each picking up on an obsolete label
>self-chosen by their opponents and turning this label into a perjorative term.
>
>NB: you may not be aware of this, but in the USA "conservative" is every bit
>as perjorative as "liberal".
>
>
>>   I'd also like to know the potential spin status of
>>           civil rights
>>           progressive
>>           civil libertarian
>>   - which are harder to pin down.
>
>"Civil rights" is NOT an obsolete term like "liberal".  It has, and has had
>since at least the 1950's, the specialized meaning of "race relations".
>
>"Progressive" was a widely-used term in the early 20th century, when it
>referred to such things as women voting and Prohibition.  It then, for reasons
>unclear to me, dropped out of general usage, last appearing in the national
>consicousness in the Progressive Party of 1948.  However, note the
>"Progressive
>Conservative Party" in Canada.
>
>"Civil libertarian" is almost a non-word, since the term "civil liberties" is
>almost always associated with the often-controversial American Civil
>Liberties Union, which has been very active since at least the
>1920's.   If the ACLU
>is not involved, then the term "civil liberties" doesn't get used.
>
>                - James A. Landau


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Mar 10 19:21:26 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:21:26 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

Here we have a positive clue and a dead end.

Albert Gleizes produced a painting in 1915 called "Jazz" and Charles Demuth one called "Negro Jazz Band" in 1916.

To start with the bad news: Demuth was an American painter.  His painting, a watercolor, is reproduced in Charles Demuth, by Barbara Haskell, illustration #19, p. 81.  (New York : Whitney Museum of American Art & H. N. Abrams, 1987)
However, Bruce Kellner, in an email dated Thursday, February 12, 2004, tells me:
"Many of the titles that she [Emily Farnham, Demuth's biographer] does identify, however, are of her own inventions for identification purposes, since Demuth seems not to have titled all of his works himself."
So this is probably not Demuth's title for this painting, but a description concocted in the 1950s, based on its seeming subject matter.

On the other hand, Albert Gleizes, a French Cubist, came to the U. S. for a fairly brief visit in September, 1915.  He was back in Europe by the spring of 1916.  Albert Gleizes: catalogue raisonne (Paris: Fondation Albert Gleizes & Somogy, Editions d'art, c1998) gives 4 paintings in vol. 1, p. 218, 3 of which are dated '15 and one of which is entitled "Jazz 3e et."  One of these paintings clearly shows two blck men playing banjos.

The apparent fact that Gleizes encountered the word "jazz" in NYC in late 1915 or early 1916 and associated it with music played by black musicians does not fit comfortably with what otherwise seems a plausible story, that "jazz" was a west coast word brought to Chicago by a white musician (Bert Kelly); that it was adopted there by one or several other groups comprised of white musicians; that it did not reach NYC until early 1917, when the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to the city; and that the word and the music did not become a fad until the ODJB made a hit record in the spring of 1917.
It does seem that once the fad hit, every vaudeville musical group that played novelty music started calling itself a "jazz band", and that the response in Chicago to Kelly;s group, and the ODJB, and Tom Brown's band, was pretty enthusiastic, so it may be that the fad started to spread through vaudeville before the ODJB came to NYC and before they recorded their first hit.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Mar 10 19:27:34 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:27:34 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

        Nice work, George.  How certain is it that "Jazz 3e et" is the original title of the Gleizes painting?

John Baker


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Mar 10 19:18:29 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:18:29 +0000
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:10 pm -0500 Jesse Sheidlower
 wrote:

> I think that writing letters to the Times or the BBC about
> even very slight inaccuracies in (esp. military) costuming
> in historical dramas is a stereotypical British thing to do.

There's a means of self-deprecatory (or other-deprecatory) humour that
plays on this.  People around here often refer to themselves or another
person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--referring to the
way that people sign anonymous letters to newspaper columns, etc.  (The
adjectives and towns change--it's the construction itself that is the
constant.)  It's a way of poking fun at one's own (or another's) tendency
to get on one's high horse about some arguably trivial thing.

The smaller or more provincial the town, the better.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Mar 10 19:37:30 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:37:30 -0500
Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!)
In-Reply-To: <737EBA1C.4FC1CFD6.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:53:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> (OED)
> parbake, v.
> nonce-wd.
>     trans. To bake partially, half bake.
>
> 1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot
>and so glaring that very few people were about; a few
>par-baked figures went quickly by.

The revised OED entry now has a first cite from 1841 (in a
non-figurative context), and the note "_rare_ before 20th
cent.". If you have something before that 1985 Factiva
quote, it would fill a big gap.

Jesse "Yes, someone reads these" Sheidlower
OED


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 10 19:52:01 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:52:01 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote:

> (3)  A quick and dirty google inspection suggests that the claim that
> _civil liberties_ "is almost always associated with the
> often-controversial American Civil Liberties Union" may be accurate
> if "almost always" conveys about 20-25% of the time.

I hesitate to venture what could be deemed a political opinion in response
to a posting (not Larry's, but the one before) by someone who once
complained about my half-assed political comments, but I think this is a
factual, nonpartisan point:  The current Administration, while undertaking
controversial legal and legislative innovations in response to terrorism,
has given the term "civil liberties" more currency than it has had since
the McCarthy era, and the term has taken on a new life going way beyond
the specific activities of the ACLU.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 10 19:59:35 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:59:35 -0500
Subject: "Par bake" (bread); Dorgan on Journal-American (!)
In-Reply-To: <20040310193729.GA13300@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

At 2:37 PM -0500 3/10/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:53:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>  (OED)
>>  parbake, v.
>>  nonce-wd.
>  >     trans. To bake partially, half bake.
>>

Thanks for calling the entry to our attention.  I'll try referring to
someone's parbaked ideas next time I get the chance.

Larry Horn

>  > 1885 MRS. RITCHIE Mrs. Dymond I. vi, Everything was so hot
>>and so glaring that very few people were about; a few
>>par-baked figures went quickly by.
>
>The revised OED entry now has a first cite from 1841 (in a
>non-figurative context), and the note "_rare_ before 20th
>cent.". If you have something before that 1985 Factiva
>quote, it would fill a big gap.
>
>Jesse "Yes, someone reads these" Sheidlower
>OED


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Mar 10 20:24:05 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:24:05 -0000
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078946309@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

Lynne Murphy wrote:

> There's a means of self-deprecatory (or other-deprecatory) humour that
> plays on this.  People around here often refer to themselves or another
> person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--referring to
> the way that people sign anonymous letters to newspaper columns, etc.
> (The adjectives and towns change--it's the construction itself that is
> the constant.)  It's a way of poking fun at one's own (or another's)
> tendency to get on one's high horse about some arguably trivial thing.

The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells",
but now that there are no longer any retired ex-Indian-Army colonels
spending their sunset years in that town, we have had to find a more
geographically diverse set of exemplars.
--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Mar 10 21:14:59 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:14:59 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

I don't have the book here now -- I looked at it at the NYPL, and it's been ordered for this library but isn't here yet -- but this version of the painting was described as something like "signe et date" (or shuuld this be with "ee"s) so "Jazz 3e et" must be in the hand of Gleizes.

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" 
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916

>        Nice work, George.  How certain is it that "Jazz 3e et" is
> the original title of the Gleizes painting?
>
> John Baker
>
>


From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Wed Mar 10 22:56:20 2004
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:56:20 +1000
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My thanks to several contributors for helpful insights on the US use
of "liberal" and other terms. My point was not, of course, that the
US "has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels" - such a view
would indeed be naive, but it's not what I wrote. I am interested in
the uses of political-affective labels in the US in ways which differ
from uses elsewhere and which aren't documented in lexicographic
resources: for instance, James Laundau's observations on the decline
/ shift of "progressive", or Laurence Horn's comments on who will
associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can
indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil
liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given
a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum.

I can't find any relevant entries in LLBA or other relevant
bibloiographic databases. I'd be grateful for any bibliographic
guidance.

Roly Sussex

--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 10 23:11:27 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:11:27 -0800
Subject: subject-verb agreement
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 10, 2004, at 10:23 AM, i wrote:

> ...now, there is some precedent for claiming that DA conflicts are
> irresolvable.  charles fillmore suggested, many years ago, that some
> conflicts (these in particular) produced gaps in the predictions of the
> grammar, analogous to paradigm gaps in morphology...

i was startled yesterday when i discovered that AHD4 lists "stridden"
as  the  past participle of "stride", without comment; a great many
people reject both "strived" and "stridden".  apparently there are
enough who produce "stridden" that AHD4 lists it -- but it's hard to
believe that these people are now in the majority.  when i ask classes
to supply a past participle  for "stride", almost everyone falls into
consternation or giggles.

> ...the fact is, when you collect judgments (and examples from corpora)
> some speakers resolve via AND, regardless of the order of the
> disjuncts:
>   Neither the owners nor the contractor agree.

my mistake: AHN, not AND.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Mar 10 22:57:20 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:57:20 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500 Laurence Horn

> larry horn, knee-jerk liberal

Isn't that redundant from a Yale professor? But since you are out of the
closet, maybe you can help with a related subject.

I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon
shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that
liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to
liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of
these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and
move on to more important things without needing to listen further.  A
partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big
business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize.

Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be
primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner
who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for
conservative speakers.

Incidentally, although "liberal" is used as an epithet in some circles --
OK, in my circles -- "progressive" which is to the left of "liberal"
doesn't seem to carry the same emotional clout. Even "Marxist" lands more
gently on the ear.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Wed Mar 10 23:50:11 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:50:11 -0600
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: <200403102342.i2ANgSJt020281@relay3.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
Democratic as a proper adj? as in, Teddy Kennedy is the senior Democrat
Senator from Massachusetts, or Democrat fundraisers are playing catchup.
Seems to me when I was a lad we always said Democratic here. I assumed a few
years ago that this was a Republican plot to recover the word democratic for
their own partisan purposes, but I hear democratics usin it as well. So, as
they say, what's up with that? (Actually, when I was a lad the only word
allowed in the house was socialist, but hey, that was New York . . .)

Dennis


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar 11 00:17:09 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:17:09 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: <003501c406fa$6d2ca6d0$5ec2ae80@ad.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote:
> As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
> Democratic as a proper adj? as in, Teddy Kennedy is the senior Democrat
> Senator from Massachusetts, or Democrat fundraisers are playing catchup.
> Seems to me when I was a lad we always said Democratic here. I assumed a few
> years ago that this was a Republican plot to recover the word democratic for
> their own partisan purposes, but I hear democratics usin it as well. So, as
> they say, what's up with that?

I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure your impressions are
accurate: it was a deliberate Republican adoption to make the Democrats
sound undemocratic. Safire must have written about this .

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 11 00:36:47 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:36:47 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility,
family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media,
choice, etc.

I would suspect that users of these words are more "conservative" than
"liberal."

I must admit that I stole most of them from on-line articles.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Campbell" 
> I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon
> shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that
> liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to
> liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of
> these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and
> move on to more important things without needing to listen further.  A
> partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big
> business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize.
>
> Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be
> primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner
> who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for
> conservative speakers.


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Mar 11 00:51:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:51:40 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
In-Reply-To: <215fdde215f974.215f974215fdde@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

What is "Jazz 3e et."? I'm generally ignorant of French.

Is it "Jazz troisie`me e'tude" = "Jazz, third study" maybe? Then would
there be a couple of earlier "jazz" works?

-- Doug Wilson


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Mar 11 01:09:36 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:09:36 -0500
Subject: Milk, Milk, Lemonade
In-Reply-To: <200403090501.i2951Pvq002386@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I can't figure out what was posted by Sam and what by Barry. My memory
-- childhood in 1950's -- is only of a rhyme, with no remembered
pointing or other reference:

        What's your trade?
        Lemonade.
        Around the corner ice cream's made.

"Trade" isn't common now in the sense of 'business; line of work', and
I'd be surprised to hear it productively from a child or teenager. Was
it current even then? Or does it indicate a possible earlier origin for
this rhyme in various forms?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Mar 11 01:21:58 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:21:58 -0500
Subject: outsourcing
Message-ID: 

On public radio tonight, "Marketplace" I think, there was a long article
on the movement of American jobs to other countries; it may have been
the one described on their website (http://www.marketplace.org/) as
"India's youth are breaking new ground in previously unknown and
unpopular professions". The speakers all used the word "outsourcing"
specifically to mean (of a US company) having work done outside the
United States. This specification was new to me.


OED OnLine defines "outsource":

    trans. To obtain (goods, etc., esp.  component parts) by contract
from a source outside an organization or area; to contract (work) out.
Also absol.

and gives citations from 1979 to 1986.


MW Online does give the "foreign" concentration for the gerund, which
has its own entry. (The verb is apparently available on-line only with a
subscription.)

Function: noun
: the practice of subcontracting manufacturing work to outside and
especially foreign or nonunion companies


To quote the Gershwins, "How long has this been going on?"

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Mar 11 01:42:59 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:42:59 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:50:11 -0600 Dennis Baron 
writes:
> As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
> Democratic as a proper adj?

That was a Gingrich -- blessed be his name -- initiative. I, too, grew up
in an era where capital-D Democrats were Democratic. And I still feel
uncomfortable using Democrat as an adjective. But I force myself to do
it, not for partisan reasons but because it is clearer. For instance, you
don't always have to say "capital-D" to differentiate it from
"democratic" as a political system which Democrats do not exclusively
own.

Jefferson, BTW, was a member of the Democratic-Republican party.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 02:18:19 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:18:19 -0500
Subject: Hector was a pup (1906)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Lesa Dill wrote:

> It relates to the Fenimore Cooper Leatherstocking Series.  As Natty
> Bumpo grows old and wanders around  the prairie, so does his dog
> Hector, whom I always thought ended up as toothless as his master.  I
> don't remember if the phrase actually appears in any of the novels.

Here's an earlier example:

1896 _Wash. Post_ 6 Feb. 6 (ProQuest)  Charley Holcomb and "Monk" Robinson
... have been scrapping with each other in this neighborhood "since long
before Hector was a pup."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 02:57:07 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:57:07 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: <005401c40700$efc44bb0$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote:

> nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility,
> family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media,
> choice, etc.

This is an excellent list.  By "choice" I assume you mean choice with
regard to school vouchers, not abortions.

Here are some others:

tort reform, faith-based, welfare mothers, strict constructionism,
original interpretation [of the Constitution], creation science,
tax-and-spend, pro-life, tree-hugger, Feminazi, morality

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Mar 11 02:59:38 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm sure
Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Mar 11 03:05:15 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:05:15 -0600
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

So far, the 'best' right to left insult I've heard is "Birkenstock-wearing,
tofu-sucking, bunny-hugging, Yuppie tree-faggot."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" 

Here are some others:


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Mar 11 03:08:34 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:08:34 -0500
Subject: Fwd: "yestersol"
In-Reply-To: <200402270510.i1R5AWvq009399@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Going through old mail...

#Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:15:46 -0500
#From:    Laurence Horn 
#Subject: Fwd: "yestersol"
#
#An early nominee for the WOTY list, courtesy of a colleague on another list...
#
#--- begin forwarded text
#
#Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:20:59 +0000
#From: JohnM 
#Subject: yestersol
#
#As someone who is following closely the Mars mission
#(and will almost certainly put a summary on my website)
#I couldn't help being fascinated by the new word 'yestersol'
#which NASA has invented (sol being a Martian day, 20 mins
#longer than ours). I have not as yet seen 'tosol' but it can't
#be far away.
#
#Now you can't have a word like this in many other languages.
#You can't in any Latin-derived languages, you can't in Greek or in
#German. The only language I know when you can have a similar
#construction is Hungarian (nap=day) tegnap=yesterday ->tegsol)
#and they are one better because they can have tomorrow, too!
#(holnap=tomorrow->holsol).
#
#Sorry for being so sad, but does anyone know any other languages that
#could have yestersol?

Latin could have 'tosol'. L. 'today' is "hodie" (long i and e), lit. 'on
this day'. (The morphology is totally lost in, e.g., the Spanish
daughter word "hoy".) Latin 'tomorrow', though, is useless for this
purpose, "cras", and I don't remember L. 'yesterday'.

FWIW, the Klingon words are morphologically transparent but lexically
difficult:
        DaHjaj: this + day
        wa'Hu': one + 'days ago'
        wa'leS: one + 'days from now'
 -- the difficulty being that the three head roots are completely
unrelated!

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From funex79 at CHARTER.NET  Thu Mar 11 03:23:18 2004
From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:23:18 -0800
Subject: democrat as an adjective and some conservative buzz words
Message-ID: 

I don't know if he was the first to do so but Joe Mccarthy cerainly popularized the usage. And as far as conservative buzz words are concerned "eliitist" has become common when referring to liberals. And "arrogant" is certainly as much thrown around by Conservatives as by liberals.

jerome Foster


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 03:28:20 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:28:20 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Democrat Party"
In-Reply-To: <200403110209.i2B29Zf13037@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Duane Campbell wrote:

> That was a Gingrich -- blessed be his name -- initiative. I, too, grew up
> in an era where capital-D Democrats were Democratic. And I still feel
> uncomfortable using Democrat as an adjective. But I force myself to do
> it, not for partisan reasons but because it is clearer. For instance, you
> don't always have to say "capital-D" to differentiate it from
> "democratic" as a political system which Democrats do not exclusively
> own.

This is a longstanding Republican fetish that predated Gingrich by
decades.  Safire's New Political Dictionary states: "In 1955, Leonard
Hall, a former Republican National Chairman, began referring to the
'Democrat' rather than the 'Democratic' party, a habit begun by Thomas E.
Dewey.  Hall dropped the 'ic,' he said, because 'I think their claims that
they represent the great mass of the people, and we don't is just a lot of
bunk.'  The University of Virginia's Atcheson L. Hench said of this usage
in American Speeh magazine: 'Whether they have meant to imply that the
party was no longer democratic, or whether they banked on the harsher
sound pattern of the new name; whether they wanted to strengthen the
impression that they were speaking for a new Republican party by using a
new name for the opposition, or whether they had other reasons, the fact
remains that ... highly influential speakers ... used the shorter
adjective.  Some Democrats suggested retaliating by shortening Republican
to Publican, but the National Committee overruled them, explaining that
Republican 'is the name by which our opponents' product is known and
mistrusted."

When I search JSTOR, I don't find any article by Hench on this subject.
The OED has an 1890 citation for "Democrat Party."  Here's earlier:

1855 _N.Y. Daily Times_ 23 Nov. 3 (ProQuest)  The Republican and Democrat
parties have been formed by it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 03:41:44 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:41:44 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Democrat Party"
In-Reply-To: <200403110328.i2B3SMJ25576@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> When I search JSTOR, I don't find any article by Hench on this subject.

Safire is apparently referring to an article by Ignace Feuerlicht in the
Oct. 1957 issue of AS.  Feuerlicht wrote that "It seems that Carroll
Reece, former G.O.P. chairman, forged the new adjective as a political
weapon in the election year 1946."  The earliest citation Feuerlicht gives
for Reece's usage is _N.Y. Times_, 27 Sept. 1946.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Mar 11 04:09:27 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:09:27 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500 David Bergdahl 
writes:
> I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm
> sure
> Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater.

Possible. But I don't think it gained currency until Gingrich and his
C-SPAN speeches to an empty gallery.

A word on the utility of the change. I had a talk just this evening about
the counties in Florida that were in contention in 2000, and I mentioned
that all had an election commission with a Democrat majority. That was
accurate and clear. Had I said that all three had a D(or d)emocratic
majority, it would have taken on overtones that the opposite would have
not been small-d democratic.

Sam Clements and Fred Shapiro have offered thought provoking lists of
words associated with conservatives. I'm not altogher comfortable with
the anologies, but I'm going to sleep on it.

I think the use of words in a political context is appropriate for
discussion in this very political year. I know I am a partisan, and I
also know that my particular partisanship is in a tiny minority on this
list, but I would hope we could discuss the words without doing serious
bodily harm.

D


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 04:30:53 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:30:53 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: <20040310.231608.-211345.27.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:09 PM -0500 3/10/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0500 David Bergdahl 
>writes:
>>  I think the use of "democrat" by Republicans antedates Gingrich--I'm
>>  sure
>>  Reagan used it and maybe even Nixon and Ford, if not Goldwater.
>
>Possible. But I don't think it gained currency until Gingrich and his
>C-SPAN speeches to an empty gallery.
>
>A word on the utility of the change. I had a talk just this evening about
>the counties in Florida that were in contention in 2000, and I mentioned
>that all had an election commission with a Democrat majority. That was
>accurate and clear. Had I said that all three had a D(or d)emocratic
>majority, it would have taken on overtones that the opposite would have
>not been small-d democratic.

Another illustration the disambiguating "Democrat" was Bob Dole's
favored use in his 1988 campaign of the notion of "Democrat wars"
(e.g. WWI, WWII, Korean War, all of which we joined in on under a
Democrat(ic) administration).  Referring to these as "Democratic
wars" wouldn't have had the same effect, and might have been
misconstrued.  As for the practice of attributing such wars to the
party controlling the adminstration at the time, however that party
is referred to, Dole's usage provides a neat instance of Aristotle's
observation:

Another [fallacy] is taking a noncause as a cause, for example when
something has taken place at the same time or after [something else];
for people take what happens later as though it happened because of
what preceded, and especially people involved in politics, for
example Demades [regarded] the policy of Demosthenes as the cause of
all evils, for the war took place after it.

(Rhetoric 1401b30ff.)

Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 04:37:56 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:37:56 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 9:57 PM -0500 3/10/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote:
>
>>  nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility,
>>  family values, political correctness, secular humanism, liberal media,
>>  choice, etc.
>
>This is an excellent list.  By "choice" I assume you mean choice with
>regard to school vouchers, not abortions.
>
>Here are some others:
>
>tort reform, faith-based, welfare mothers,

and lest we forget, welfare Cadillac

>strict constructionism,
>original interpretation [of the Constitution], creation science,
>tax-and-spend, pro-life, tree-hugger, Feminazi, morality
>

there's also semantic extension, e.g. "terrorist" (for educators
critical of NCLB)

larry horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 04:50:41 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:50:41 EST
Subject: Wrap fish in newspaper (1952); Line bird cage in newspaper (1949)
Message-ID: 

   For how long have we been wrapping fish in newspapers?
   It's also an old slight against a newspaper you don't like.  The New York
Times, for example, is only good to "wrap fish in."  Occasionally, you'll also
hear "line bird cages."
   I thought I'd try a "wrap fish" search in Newspaperarchive. ..USAGE NOTE:
Do not wrap fish in the internet edition.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("wrap fish")
Coshocton Tribune - 11/23/1975
...For Realism By JOAN HANAUER NKW YORK don't WRAP FISH in old newspapers any
more they..
Coshocton, Ohio Sunday, November 23, 1975  562 k

Daily Times News - 10/25/1972
...Newspapers WHITEVILLE They've been used to WRAP FISH for years and even
ground up and..
Burlington, North Carolina   Wednesday, October 25, 1972  604 k

Chronicle Telegram - 9/27/1964
...80 YEARS AGO IN NEW YORK WAXED PAPER TO WRAP FISH 50 AS TO Xx CARRY ft
HOME... ABBIE..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, September 27, 1964  675 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 5/22/1969
...A lot of editorial pages have been used to WRAP FISH in since then, but
Matthews won't..
Edwardsville, Illinois Thursday, May 22, 1969  526 k

La Verne Leader - 7/31/1969
...cracks about their product bc'infj used to WRAP FISH and line bird cages.
And there was..
La Verne, California Thursday, July 31, 1969  509 k

Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1964
...80 YEARS AGO IN NEW YORK WAXED PAPER TO WRAP FISH 50 AS TO Xx CARRY ft
HOME... ABBIE..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, August 27, 1964  675 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 12/24/1953
...TV Manhattan Swears It Will Never Again WRAP FISH in a Newspaper By
KICIIAKD KLEINKIt.....ne icwspaper really means. We'll er WRAP a FISH in one again.
Barber Scholarship..
Dixon, Illinois Thursday, December 24, 1953  738 k

Salisbury Times - 7/15/1958
...of a newspaper is that it's something to WRAP FISH in was right after all.
The Daily.....proves it. A New Jersey couple needed to WRAP up not a FISH but
a pair of muddy shoes.....had an impact, even when it was used to WRAP a pair
of muddy shoes. Man Who Needed No.....this as lost time. That America's
annual FISH harvest amounts to five billion pounds..
Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, July 15, 1958  625 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 7/8/1952
...hits the street, the news is fit .only to WRAP FISH in. THIS IS all very
well for the..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, July 08, 1952  789 k

Zanesville Signal - 1/24/1952
...yesterday's newspaper is only good to WRAP FISH in. I'm wondering if the
FISH won't..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 24, 1952  694 k

Mansfield News - 7/5/1925
...sei. Her best rival is Mrs. 'grass, and -WRAP FISH In newsjit can be
shipped at once.....te baseball Stanley life catches a FISH that he .know the shape
of the FISH.....this, remove the internal organs; InThen WRAP the skin in
paper. lent In the affairs.....belly, which lay on a board as before, and WRAP
She has taken part In all of, would..
Mansfield, Ohio Sunday, July 05, 1925  832 k
(Refers to the newspapers over fish packed in ice--ed.)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("line bird cage")
Chronicle Telegram - 6/4/1949
...jeer at newspapers being used to LINE BIRD CAGES. We think of it as one
more reader.....moved. board? Newspapers are also our first LINE of defense in
pest control. If this..
Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 04, 1949  548 k


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Mar 11 04:59:08 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:59:08 -0800
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: <200403101224.1b1afq5sh3NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: 

>... People around here often refer to themselves or another
>  > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--...
>The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells",

Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"?

Rima


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 11 05:32:25 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:32:25 -0800
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

Two excellent sources for the origins and subsequent development of
'liberal', 'conservative', etc. are:

Ronald Rotunda, _The Politics of Language: Liberalism as Word and
Symbol_, U. of Iowa Press, 1986.

David Green, _The Language of Politics in America: Shaping Political
Consciousness from McKinley to Reagan_, Cornell, 1987. (This in
particular is an invaluable book for anybody interested in the
development of 20th c. political language in America.)

I had an article on the more recent (since 1970) uses of 'liberal' in
the American Prospect, 9/1/03; it's available online at

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/8/nunberg-g.html


Geoff Nunberg

>My thanks to several contributors for helpful insights on the US use
>of "liberal" and other terms. My point was not, of course, that the
>US "has a monopoly on politically sensitive labels" - such a view
>would indeed be naive, but it's not what I wrote. I am interested in
>the uses of political-affective labels in the US in ways which differ
>from uses elsewhere and which aren't documented in lexicographic
>resources: for instance, James Laundau's observations on the decline
>/ shift of "progressive", or Laurence Horn's comments on who will
>associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can
>indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil
>liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given
>a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum.
>
>I can't find any relevant entries in LLBA or other relevant
>bibloiographic databases. I'd be grateful for any bibliographic
>guidance.
>
>Roly Sussex
>
>--
>
>Roly Sussex
>Professor of Applied Language Studies
>Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
>School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
>The University of Queensland
>Brisbane
>Queensland 4072
>AUSTRALIA
>
>Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
>Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
>Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
>Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
>Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
>School's website:
>        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
>Applied linguistics website:
>        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/
>
>Language Talkback ABC radio:
>Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
>Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm
>
>**********************************************************


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 11 05:52:12 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:52:12 -0800
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

One point worth bearing in mind is that a lot of the language that we
now associate with conservatism had its origin in left or liberal
discourse -- cf "bias," "color-blind," "political correctness,"
"empowerment," and more recently "hate speech" (often used by RNC
chairman Ed Gillespie to describe Democratic attacks on the
President).

In fact it's my sense that "values" itself first became widely
current during the 1950's as one of those social-science borrowings
like "alienation," "status symbol" and "peer group" that were popular
in liberal-progressive circles,  before it was picked up by the right
in the late 1960s in phrases like "mainstream values" and "family
values." (The first cite for "mainstream values" in the NYT is in a
1968 article that bears the wonderfully of-its-moment headline
"Political Activism New Hippie 'Thing.'")

BTW, the OED gives 1918 for the use of the plural 'values' to mean
"the principles or standards of a person or society, the personal or
societal judgement of what is valuable and important in life." But
there are cites for this sense in the JSTOR sociology journals from
the mid-1890's, and I'm betting that Fred Shapiro could take it back
earlier than that.

Geoff Nunberg



>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:40 -0500 Laurence Horn
>
>>  larry horn, knee-jerk liberal
>
>Isn't that redundant from a Yale professor? But since you are out of the
>closet, maybe you can help with a related subject.
>
>I've been talking recently with some of my pick-up drivin;, coon
>shootin', Old Milwaukee drinkin' friends the unique language that
>liberals use. We are working on a list of words that are peculiar to
>liberals. This is primarily a time saving effort. When you hear one of
>these words, you can immediately identify the speaker as a liberal and
>move on to more important things without needing to listen further.  A
>partial list would be: marginalize, arrogant, the ever popular big
>business, facilitator, disenfranchise, empowering, greedy, victimize.
>
>Seriously, though these are all mainstream words, they seem to be
>primarily in the liberal lexicon. And perhaps it's like the Southerner
>who thinks Yankees have an accent, I can't think of a comperable list for
>conservative speakers.
>
>Incidentally, although "liberal" is used as an epithet in some circles --
>OK, in my circles -- "progressive" which is to the left of "liberal"
>doesn't seem to carry the same emotional clout. Even "Marxist" lands more
>gently on the ear.
>
>D
>
>I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 06:00:31 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:00:31 EST
Subject: If life hands you lemons, make lemonade (1908)
Message-ID: 

"YOU LEMONS" + "MAKE LEMONADE"--9,130 Google hits, 7,310 Google Groups hits

   What does Fred Shapiro have for this popular proverb?  This was added to
the recent OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS, but I can't read inside the book
through Amazon.
   A brief internet search fails to find a single name or date attached to
this.
  (OT:  What if life gives you ten hours a day of parking tickets?  What do
you do then?)


(GOOGLE)
http://www.geocities.com/varsitycancerousteens/cancermation/attic/quotes.html
"If life gives you lemons then make lemonade."
Anon.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Reference/EnglishDictionaries/?c
i=0198605242&view=usa
This brand new edition of the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs expands its
coverage to 1100 proverbs, with more detailed annotation and up-to-the-minute
citations from around the English-speaking world. The text is completely accessible
and comprehensive, with added paragraphs that provide illuminating examples
of each proverb and its history.

New proverbs have been added, ranging from modern maxims such as "If life
hands you lemons, make lemonade" to those with their roots in the past, such as
"Justice delayed is justice denied." A thematic index allows readers to easily
find proverbs on subjects ranging from boasting to weddings. Presented in a
thoroughly reader-friendly style yet maintaining the scholarly standards that
have characterized earlier editions, this fourth edition is a valuable updating
of a well-loved classic reference.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Grace McGarvie (gemcgar at attbi.com)
Subject: TROUBLE
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 2002-03-27 12:50:41 PST
(...)
When life hands you lemons - break out the tequila and salt.  Anonymous
If life deals you lemons, make lemonade; if it deals you tomatoes, make
Bloody Marys.  Anonymous


(GOOGLE)
http://66.33.0.35/spyblocs/adv/free/SpyBlocs_PopUp999.html
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the
people that piss you off. - Jack Handy


(GOOGLE)

http://a.tribalfusion.com/p.media/JLDRHMNBJIRCTINMHPDNLPOWNHUVOLIKNDIQPRMPLALLCLQEGJGHABYVRLQUOKBWKLIHIGOCFPQC/126196/pop.html
> Dogbert: "Well you know what they say, when life gives you lemon, make
> lemonade."
> Dilbert: "But i'm allergic to citrus."
> Dogbert: "Well you know what they say, when life gives you lemons, swell up
> and die."Scott Adams (1957 - ), "Dilbert" comic strip



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Reno Evening Gazette - 4/25/1908
...OPTIMIST. An optimist is a man who can MAKE LEMONADE out of all LEMONS
handed him.....neighbor a ing and the readers of trying to MAKE out whether they
are throwing bouquets..
Reno, Nevada Saturday, April 25, 1908  667 k
Pg. 4, col. 2:
      _THE REAL OPTIMIST._
   An optimist is a man who can make lemonade out of all lemons handed to
him.--Biddleford Journal.

Iowa Recorder - 11/30/1910
...said that an optimist is a man who can MAKE LEMONADE out of LEMONS that
are handed to him.....about It. sold me two bottles of stuff to MAKE this hair
grow. is very strange it won't..

Atlanta Constitution - 4/14/1914
...paper says optimist is one who can MAKE LEMONADE out of the LEMONS that
are handed to.....federation and every activity and walk of .LIFE to speakers
present the imperative need.....attorneys with the request that he MAKE the race
for the legislature, will MAKE.....The first obligation of every community is
LIFE conservation. Atlanta's women, as usual..
Atlanta, Georgia Tuesday, April 14, 1914  603 k

Indianapolis Star - 6/18/1911
...George, an optimist is a man who' can MAKE LEMONADE out of the LEMONS
handed Mr. Werba.....marked change has entered Into the general LIFE of colored
children, according to Mr.....and furthering of this season's successes MAKE the
Werbai Luescher busy places these.....Ind., delivered an address on and
Modern LIFE. in which he ridiculed New York as a..
Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, June 18, 1911  884 k

Humeston New Era - 12/6/1911
...senator, "is a man who is able to MAKE LEMONADE at night out of all tbe
LEMONS.....save him from failure in college and in LIFE. "But, general, you the
studerft replied.....is to dissolve the great organizations and MAKE Your
grocer authorized to give you free.....possession your health may be your LIFE
itself. See that you get what you ask..
Humeston, Iowa Wednesday, December 06, 1911  713 k

Indiana Democrat - 12/6/1911
...is able to do, in the opinion of said MAKE LEMONADE at night out of sll
the LEMONS.....the county jail refusing to see any in my LIFE. I said them in
that room nowhere else.....Is to dissolre the great organizations and MAKE them
smaller, which Is a backward There.....than annually. She has spent many cne
or MAKE any statement, an interthousands In..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 06, 1911  723 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 07:31:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:31:13 EST
Subject: Grab a root and growl (1939); Something in the milk ain't clean
 (1997)
Message-ID: 

GRAB A ROOT AND GROWL

ROOT AND GROWL--42 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

   Probably most popular in the late 1930s.  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG
has just "grab a root" from "mid-19C+."
   I've sat down to eat many times, but I've never heard it.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak.htm (go to "FOOD"--ed.)
THEY SAID: Grab a root and growl.
WE SAY: Sit down and have something to eat


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Funny quotes during gameplay
... This makes me snicker anytime I have dinner at my parent's place; at the
start
of any meal, my dad usually says, "Grab a root and growl" Of course this is
...
rec.games.frp.misc - May 23, 1997 by browne at mala.bc.ca - View Thread (301
articles)


(AMERICAN MEMORY)
http://memory.loc.gov
DATE January 10, 1939 SUBJECT American Folklore Stuff
(...)
Many labor terms have found their way into American speech in Nebraska and
elsewhere.A ground worker on a telephone gang is called a "Grunt." Guy anchors
were called "Dead men."
Stretching the wire---"pulling blocks."
Railroad terms:
Section men are "gandy dancers" or "Jerries,"
Brakeman -------- "shack"
Fireman -------- "Tallow Pot"
Engineer -------- "hog head" or "Eagle eye."
Conductor -------- "captain"
Car repairer -------- "car tink"
quick stop signal -------- "wash out"
out of town -------- "high ball"
Take a hold & lift -------- "grab root and growl"
Shoveler -------- "shovel stiff"
Telegrapher -------- "lightning slinger"
Demerits -------- "brownies"
Intinerant laborer is a "gay cat" or "bindle stiff." There are literally
hundreds of these terms.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nevada State Journal - 3/30/1939
...some live wires that will grab a ROOT AND GROWL AND put Reno on a solid
foundation.....of widows AND orphans of local war veterans AND of needy veterans
themselves, AND the.....them big business magazines the other day. AND I
looked through it AND I was glad to see.....undoubtedly be glad to care for the
mules. AND, forthwith loaded them in a stock car AND..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 30, 1939  693 k
Pg. 4, col. 3:
   My suggestion would be for a good aggressive mayor, after elected, make a
bee line to the chamber of commerce and appoint some live wires that will grab
a root and growl and put Reno on a solid foundation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SOMETHING IN THE MILK AIN'T CLEAN

SOMETHING IN THE MILK AIN'T CLEAN--34 Google hits, 19 Google Groups hits
MILK AIN'T CLEAN--40 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits

   Another regionalism I haven't heard in NYC.


http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak/food.htm
THEY SAID: Something in the milk ain't clean!
WE SAY: Something seems amiss.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
(No hits--ed.)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
I Am
... Mrs. Blue, when she'd call me every night at home,speaking to the various
injustices
in town,would always say, "Hmm hmm hmm Miss Judy--the milk ain't clean". ...
soc.culture.malaysia - Jan 18, 2004 by t m z z - View Thread (1 article)

Playist - WNCU Blue Monday show for Monday, February 16th
... Ichiban (98) 15. Something In The Milk Ain't Clean - Drink Small - The
Blues Doctor To My Friends - Drinktron Publishing 16. All Dried ...
bit.listserv.blues-l - Feb 25, 2004 by Marc Lee - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: The Trivia Torment Continues...
... But if he was a BONA FIDE candy date for guvner then he HAD to be a
registered
voter, so that was all a scam to... something in the milk ain't clean...
alt.fan.howard-stern - Oct 26, 1997 by John McCarthy - View Thread (1 article)

The Week Online with DRCNet, Issue #90
... of the Federal Sentencing Commission that mandatory minimum sentencing
ought
to be eliminated, noted that "something in the milk ain't clean." Rep. ...
rec.drugs.announce - May 7, 1999 by DRCNet - View Thread (1 article)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 08:55:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:55:54 EST
Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949)
Message-ID: 

RODE HARD, PUT AWAY WET

RODE HARD, PUT--929 Google hits, 258 Google Groups hits
RODE HARD AND PUT--3,140 Google hits, 2,180 Google Groups hits

   I have a book of sports idioms right here.  Neither one of these two is in
the OED.
   Why does the same 1958 citation have "put away wet" and "out up wet"?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 1/22/1997
...ings Some wrote to tell how they d "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet. 'to how the>
're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how
they're 'grinning like.....a c Her favorite tnan a bar o; soap after a HARD day
of was I poorer a ,u, entire subi.....nivs rnr.re diverse, she says i do rhis
to PUT 1 think Faulkner did it to AND make them..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997  421 k

News - 1/22/1997
...Some wrote to tell how they'd been "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." to how
they're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how
they're 'grinning like.....She's no bigger than a bar of soap after a HARD day of
If someone is "poorer than a.....around "like a duck after a June didn't "PUT
all their eggs in the same basket" AND..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997  687 k

Mountain Democrat - 9/6/1989
...car. The Udder Guys, Men of Pause, RODE HARD AND PUT Away Wet, Raw Sewage
need AND.....Coach Dave Clarke's El Dorado squad was hit HARD by graduation,
AND the Cougars will rely.....second consecutive SFL championship. To PUT it
bluntly, the Bruins are loaded. They.....forwards Mike Munoz, Robbie Moots AND
Frank Cordes are also back AND should..
Placerville, California Wednesday, September 06, 1989  670 k

Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/24/1958
...of rocking chairs. feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet. ready
signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming
work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs.
Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND Mr.
AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND..
Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 24, 1958  730 k

Salisbury Times - 7/24/1958
...rocking chairs." "I feel like I txfen RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." "She's
built like a.....igned a contract with Warne rothers AND was PUT into a sma ole
in "Darby's Rangers." The.....with crisp bacon AND hot buttered toast. PUT the
buttered toast in a low oven to keep.....exciting afternoon for the two boys
aged 8 AND 9. Then Patrolman Ben Way arrested them..
Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, July 24, 1958  596 k

Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/24/1958
...rocking chairs." "I feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet." ready
signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD, time-consuming
work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND Mrs.
Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year, AND
Mr. AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND..
Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 24, 1958  730 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED

SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits

   Story of my life.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948
...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around Day Farm With
A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD HAVE the
mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products tnall lines, HAVE
Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses combined to
dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the..
Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948  728 k

Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957
...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer and fall of
1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying pulfets will feel
'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What You Need:
IDEAL CHICKS Topcross..
Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957  824 k

Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968
...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of Christmas
Bills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and SHOULD HAVE no problem
making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents HAVE a
composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample height which
SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968  1013 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 11:24:17 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:24:17 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> >associate themselves with "Conservative" and "Liberal". These can
> >indeed be studied as factual matters, as Fred Shapiro notes of "civil
> >liberties": a term which looks as if it has been picked up and given
> >a new direction by a particular part of the political spectrum.
> >
> >Roly Sussex

I didn't say that "civil liberties" had been given a new direction by the
Bush Administration, just that the Administration's activities had given
it a renewed prominence.  A previous poster had asserted, in my view quite
inaccurately, that the term was invariably linked with the ACLU.  An
example of a group other than the ACLU that is closely linked to "civil
liberties" nowadays is the Electronic Frontier Foundation.  A Google
search for "civil liberties" in conjunction with "Electronic Frontier
Foundation" pulls up 40,000 hits.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Mar 11 11:51:53 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:51:53 -0500
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
Message-ID: 

I received this in the mail from a friend of mine.

Anyone know the answer?

Page Stephens

Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede, leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder, with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout.  You may remember these.

People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm, Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events where bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather cursory.

What did we call it?  I vaguely recall it had another name from (Mexican) Spanish...?

If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a  "bota."  I am pretty sure that is a newer name.  My Babelfish translator renders "bota" as an adjective meaning "dull."  The diminutive form "botilla" is a bootee.

Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.

John


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Thu Mar 11 12:55:44 2004
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:55:44 +0800
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
In-Reply-To: <200403111152.i2BBqdt7018046@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: 

PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than =
PS => mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.

30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'.

"Don't forget to bring your bota bag."

Southern California - 70's.

Russ


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Mar 11 13:45:18 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:45:18 -0800
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
In-Reply-To: <200403111256.i2BCu5Ne002014@mxu2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Russ McClay 
> Subject:      Re: Fw: hippie trivia question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than =
> PS => mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.
>
> 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'.
>
> "Don't forget to bring your bota bag."
>
> Southern California - 70's.
>
> Russ
>


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Mar 11 13:47:39 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:47:39 -0500
Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged,
 should have zagged (1949)
Message-ID: 

I would never ride a horse hard and then put it into its stall until I had
either walked it or let it out to pasture where it could cool off and let
the sweat dry.

The first time I remember? hearing this was from Tennessee Ernie back in the
'50s whose signature as a comedian was his use of corny country phrases such
as the one mentioned and "I feel as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room
full of rocking chairs."

Any dude or gunsel who would put a horse away wet should be horsewhipped pun
intended.

This reminds me of a story about a now famous physical anthropologist who
was a city boy. One day in a class he said something like, "One of the
advantages human beings had as an adaptation to heat is that humans unlike
horses sweat." to which one of my fellow grad students who was a country boy
responded, "Hey (name deleted to protect the guilty). Ever ride a horse?"

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:55 AM
Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged
(1949)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> RODE HARD, PUT AWAY WET
>
> RODE HARD, PUT--929 Google hits, 258 Google Groups hits
> RODE HARD AND PUT--3,140 Google hits, 2,180 Google Groups hits
>
>    I have a book of sports idioms right here.  Neither one of these two is
in
> the OED.
>    Why does the same 1958 citation have "put away wet" and "out up wet"?
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Frederick Post - 1/22/1997
> ...ings Some wrote to tell how they d "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet. 'to how
the>
> 're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to how
> they're 'grinning like.....a c Her favorite tnan a bar o; soap after a
HARD day
> of was I poorer a ,u, entire subi.....nivs rnr.re diverse, she says i do
rhis
> to PUT 1 think Faulkner did it to AND make them..
> Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997  421 k
>
> News - 1/22/1997
> ...Some wrote to tell how they'd been "RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." to how
> they're.....a Some wrote to tell how they'd been 'RODE HARD AND PUT up to
how
> they're 'grinning like.....She's no bigger than a bar of soap after a HARD
day of
> If someone is "poorer than a.....around "like a duck after a June didn't
"PUT
> all their eggs in the same basket" AND..
> Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, January 22, 1997  687 k
>
> Mountain Democrat - 9/6/1989
> ...car. The Udder Guys, Men of Pause, RODE HARD AND PUT Away Wet, Raw
Sewage
> need AND.....Coach Dave Clarke's El Dorado squad was hit HARD by
graduation,
> AND the Cougars will rely.....second consecutive SFL championship. To PUT
it
> bluntly, the Bruins are loaded. They.....forwards Mike Munoz, Robbie Moots
AND
> Frank Cordes are also back AND should..
> Placerville, California Wednesday, September 06, 1989  670 k
>
> Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 12/24/1958
> ...of rocking chairs. feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet. ready
> signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD,
time-consuming
> work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND
Mrs.
> Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year,
AND Mr.
> AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND..
> Lancaster, Ohio Wednesday, December 24, 1958  730 k
>
> Salisbury Times - 7/24/1958
> ...rocking chairs." "I feel like I txfen RODE HARD AND PUT up wet." "She's
> built like a.....igned a contract with Warne rothers AND was PUT into a
sma ole
> in "Darby's Rangers." The.....with crisp bacon AND hot buttered toast. PUT
the
> buttered toast in a low oven to keep.....exciting afternoon for the two
boys
> aged 8 AND 9. Then Patrolman Ben Way arrested them..
> Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, July 24, 1958  596 k
>
> Lancaster Eagle Gazette - 7/24/1958
> ...rocking chairs." "I feel like1 I been RODE HARD AND PUT away wet."
ready
> signed up tight.....ironing Now at last you can take the HARD,
time-consuming
> work out of ironing.....AND her parents. Mr. AND the cottage of Mr. AND
Mrs.
> Heri- William Elder AND Mr. AND Mrs.....AND Karen chased during the year,
AND
> Mr. AND Mrs. Herbert George. Sue. Scott Wyeth AND..
> Lancaster, Ohio Thursday, July 24, 1958  730 k
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---------------------------------------------
> ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED
>
> SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits
>
>    Story of my life.
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948
> ...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around Day Farm
With
> A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD HAVE the
> mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products tnall
lines, HAVE
> Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses combined to
> dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the..
> Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948  728 k
>
> Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957
> ...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer and fall
of
> 1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying pulfets will
feel
> 'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What You
Need:
> IDEAL CHICKS Topcross..
> Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957  824 k
>
> Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968
> ...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of Christmas
> Bills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and SHOULD HAVE no
problem
> making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents HAVE a
> composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample height
which
> SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds..
> Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968  1013 k


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Mar 11 14:19:20 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:19:20 -0800
Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden
In-Reply-To: <4213EE71-72E8-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

To stride:

1.He strode into the clearing.

2.He had strode into the clearing.
3.He had stridded into the clearing.
4.He had stridden into the clearing.

Sentence 4 is what I think I would say (even if I were
not, as I am now, consciously trying to choose).
FWIW, grammer-check in Word wanted to replace "strode"
and "stridded" in sentences 2 and 3 with "stridden",
and a search at http://www.onelook.com turns up
several on-line dictionaries that agree "stridden" is
the p.p. of "stride".

BUT

To strive:

He had strived to make the world a better pace.

So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride"
that sounds natural to you or your students?


--- "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
wrote:
> On Mar 10, 2004, at 10:23 AM, i wrote:
>
>
> i was startled yesterday when i discovered that AHD4
> lists "stridden"
> as  the  past participle of "stride", without
> comment; a great many
> people reject both "strived" and "stridden".
> apparently there are
> enough who produce "stridden" that AHD4 lists it --
> but it's hard to
> believe that these people are now in the majority.
> when i ask classes
> to supply a past participle  for "stride", almost
> everyone falls into
> consternation or giggles.
>
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 14:38:27 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:38:27 EST
Subject: democrat as an adjective
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote:
> As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
> Democratic as a proper adj?

My father was an editor on the Louisville KY _Courier-Journal_ back when it
was owned by the Bingham family.  In the terminology of the day, the
_Courier-Journal's_ editorial stance was "liberal Democratic".

Once when visiting my father's office (I can't date this citation except that
it was 1965 or before) I saw a memo from Mr. Bingham stating that the use of
"Democrat" as an adjective rather than "Democratic" was forbidden.  I vaguely
recall that the memo stated this practice was a deliberate attempt by
Republicans to be derogatory.

----------------------------------------------------------------

For a politically offensive label, consider the word "lackey" which is so
stereotyped as Communist propaganda that it is a shock to read _The Three
Musketeers_ and find Planchet et al consistently referred to as "lackeys".

Aside to Larry Horn:  Anyone who refers to him/herself as a "knee-jerk
liberal" isn't.

        - James A. Landau


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Mar 11 16:34:12 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:34:12 -0800
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
Message-ID: 

By the late 70s it was still a bota bag, altho 'flask' works for me as well. I had never seen this in print until a few months ago and was surprised that it was boTa rather than boDa. I had long since forgotten the word.
Fritz Juengling
>>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 03/11/04 05:45AM >>>
Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Russ McClay 
> Subject:      Re: Fw: hippie trivia question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than =
> PS => mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.
>
> 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'.
>
> "Don't forget to bring your bota bag."
>
> Southern California - 70's.
>
> Russ
>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Mar 11 17:08:16 2004
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:08:16 -0600
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
Message-ID: 

D'oh! I always thought we were saying "buddha bag."

sally donlon



FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> By the late 70s it was still a bota bag, altho 'flask' works for me as well. I had never seen this in print until a few months ago and was surprised that it was boTa rather than boDa. I had long since forgotten the word.
> Fritz Juengling
> >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 03/11/04 05:45AM >>>
> Same in Oregon, in the early 1970s. I don't recall any other name for them.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Russ McClay wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       Russ McClay 
> > Subject:      Re: Fw: hippie trivia question
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > PS => Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than =
> > PS => mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.
> >
> > 30 years ago we called them 'bota bags'.
> >
> > "Don't forget to bring your bota bag."
> >
> > Southern California - 70's.
> >
> > Russ
> >


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 11 17:21:43 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:21:43 -0800
Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden
In-Reply-To: <20040311141920.69490.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 11, 2004, at 6:19 AM, James Smith asked:

> So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride"
> that sounds natural to you or your students?

there is none; this is a paradigm gap for us.  that was why i mentioned
it.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Mar 11 17:33:13 2004
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:33:13 -0600
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
Message-ID: 

RE: Page Stephens' friend John re: wineskin

I used to have one of those cheesy wineskins, too, John... The goal was
to squeeze it into your mouth from a distance down in Austin, anyway --
dramatic and inebriating-- what more could a collegian wish?
We called them "botas" and that's still how they're referred to
occasionally around here (still selling in souvenir markets, etc.)

Your internet translator isn't so great -- "bota" has a first meaning of
dull, as in a blunt blade -- rather than boring.

But the second meaning (I refer to the Velasquez English-Spanish
dictionary, sorry, can't remember which edition at the moment --)
Is more clear: in rural Spain and Mexico, a "bota" referred to a bag
made from the gut of an animal (sheep or goat) and used to carry butter
to market in hot places; the carrier helped keep the contents cool. It's
easy to see the relationship of that bota to the wineskin, at least, the
non-neoprene cap variety. If you wanted to get cute, I suppose you might
say "goata."

There is another word for wineskin., in particular -- 2 syllables,
starts with an "o" -- but I don't remember using it, though it's more
specifically correct.
And the Velasquez also lists "pellejo de vino" -- a more literal
translation.

Buena suerte,
Susan Yerkes





-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Page Stephens
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:52 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question


I received this in the mail from a friend of mine.

Anyone know the answer?

Page Stephens

Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede,
leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder,
with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout.  You may remember these.

People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm,
Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events where
bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather cursory.

What did we call it?  I vaguely recall it had another name from
(Mexican) Spanish...?

If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a  "bota."  I
am pretty sure that is a newer name.  My Babelfish translator renders
"bota" as an adjective meaning "dull."  The diminutive form "botilla" is
a bootee.

Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better than
mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.

John


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Mar 11 17:49:13 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:49:13 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

> to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect.<
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Geo HW Bush gave this an added twist back in '88, running agst Dukakis, by
referring to "the L word" in a manner that suggested that it was only with
the greatest reluctance that he sullied his lips with such a rude
expression.
A. Murie


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:11:36 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 9:57 PM -0500 3/10/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote:
>
>>  nanny-state, junk science, activist judges, class warfare, responsibility,
>  > family values...

It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the
generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative
buzzwords.  Liberals are more likely to refer to "families" in the
bare plural.  Also one not mentioned here is "lifestyle".  (Cf. the
gay/gay-friendly bumper sticker "It's not my lifestyle, it's my
life", IIRC.)

larry horn


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:21:21 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:21:21 -0500
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices
Message-ID: 

Hindoo was foaled in 1878; as a 2-year old he won his first 7 races, and then was bought by the Dwyer brothers (good Brooklyn boys, the both of them).  As a 3-year old he won 18 straight.  Robertson's History of Thoroughbred Racing in America says the consequence of these streaks was not entirely positive: "The Dwyers (especially Mike) were notorious bettors, and in every one of these races Hindoo was less than even money -- in fact, the 1 to 2 against him in his first start of the season was the most generous price offered all year."  He gives examples of races in Hindoo's 3-year old season when he paid $1 for every $8 bet on him, and $1 to $10.  (pp. 131-32)
Hanover was a son of Hindoo, but is not discussed in any detail in this book.

Bibliographic details upon request.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathon Green 
Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 9:24 am
Subject: Hanover and Hindoo prices

> Can any racing man or woman help?
>
> I quote from Clarence Cullen _Tales of the Ex-Tanks_ (1899-1900) 364:
>
> "Somehow or another," went on Ex-Tank No. 27, irrelevantly and
> dreamily, "
> I could n-o-t, not, get 'em right that winter. They may have been
> runningfor Hogan, but they weren't running for me. When I'd dig a
> sleeper up, and
> get it right, and lose rest waiting for the day to go down the
> line on it,
> confidently expecting it 'ud be 30 to 1 or better, the word got
> out every
> time, by the under-ground, or some way or another, and the skate 'ud
> prance to the post with 1 to 3 on chalked in front of his name
> [...] Every
> one that I looked over and saw worked at grey dawn and salted down
> as the
> right goods the next time he went to the pump for long money had a
> Hanoveror a Hindoo price tacked to him when the slates went up.
>
> So what is a 'Hanover' or Hindoo' price. I can see what it means:
> shortodds, but why? Something to do with the 'H'? No sign in OED,
> HDAS,Mathews' Americanisms etc.
>
> Jonathon Green
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:27:33 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:27:33 -0500
Subject: Zigged, should have zagged (1949)
Message-ID: 

In the late 1940s Dizzy Gillespie made a recording with a comic vocal about a hopeless square.  Among this square's other shortcomings was that once he "beeped when he should have bopped".  I will check out my Dizzy CDs tonight and get a title and date, but it is most likely a year or two before 1949 and seems to me to play upon an existing expression "he zigged, when he should have zagged".

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:55 am
Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958); Zigged, should have zagged (1949)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> ---------------------------------------------
> ZIGGED, SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED
>
> SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED--964 Google hits, 1,010 Google Groups hits
>
>   Story of my life.
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Portland Press Herald - 5/30/1948
> ...County Farm Day Zigged, He SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED THE DAY Around
> Day Farm With
> A Camera.....soon ---or too late. KUCSS I ziRged when 1 .SHOULD
> HAVE the
> mode.st vctrrah said, with n.....distributors of dairy products
> tnall lines, HAVE
> Joined, whole hearf.Pd.ly a program to.....surgeons and nurses
> combined to
> dec.ccc he SHOULD live. While bin body mended, the..
> Portland, Maine Sunday, May 30, 1948  728 k
>
> Harlan News Advertiser - 3/19/1957
> ...attendent; V-i IZiggedWhen I SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED In the summer
> and fall of
> 1957, lots.....of poultry reisers who don't HAVE new laying
> pulfets will feel
> 'this way.....with -new pullets; To buy early chicks. We HAVE What
> You Need:
> IDEAL CHICKS Topcross..
> Harlan, Iowa Tuesday, March 19, 1957  824 k
>
> Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1968
> ...Maybe You Zigged When You SHOULD HAVE ZAGGED? So-o-oLots Of
> ChristmasBills to Pay.....HAVE won seven of nine season starts and
> SHOULD HAVE no problem
> making Findlay its.....Saturday nights. The two coming opponents
> HAVE a
> composite record of 13-2 for the year.....field a squad with ample
> height which
> SHOULD battle the Pioneers for those rebounds..
> Elyria, Ohio Thursday, January 04, 1968  1013 k
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:29:38 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:29:38 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

One more conservative buzzword that just struck me after reading
several letters to the editor in yesterday's NYT:  "the gays" from
those favoring a constitutional restriction of marriage to
heterosexuals (or, by the logic of most such letters, to
heterosexuals capable of breeding*), vs. "gay people" from those
opposed to such a restriction.  It always reminds me of earlier uses
of "the Jews", "the blacks", etc.--not slurs per se, but invoking
these as monolithic, non-individuated groups.  In a way, something
similar is going on with "the family" as opposed to "families".

larry horn

*"Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman, in preparation
for bearing and raising the next generation...The main point of
marriage is orderly procreation...Do the gays really want
marriage...?"   I'm assuming the proposed amendment will require
fertility tests for both partners--otherwise, they're just getting
married for love and companionship, and that's not part of the
definition.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:39:28 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:39:28 -0500
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
In-Reply-To: <005301c4075f$58af0850$bf28bc3f@D552FS31>
Message-ID: 

At 6:51 AM -0500 3/11/04, Page Stephens wrote:
>I received this in the mail from a friend of mine.
>
>Anyone know the answer?
>
>Page Stephens
>
>Thirty (35?) years ago, everyone I knew had a "wineskin"...a suede,
>leather, or synthetic cover over a neoprene or butyl rubber bladder,
>with a shoulder cord and a screw lid/spout.  You may remember these.
>
>People used them to transport wine (I am talking about Boone's Farm,
>Ripple, Gallo, etc. rather than Chateau d'Yquem) to public events
>where bottles were not allowed but personal searches were rather
>cursory.
>
>What did we call it?  I vaguely recall it had another name from
>(Mexican) Spanish...?
>
>If you look it up online now, it is now being marketed as a  "bota."
>I am pretty sure that is a newer name.  My Babelfish translator
>renders "bota" as an adjective meaning "dull."  The diminutive form
>"botilla" is a bootee.
>
>Please let me know if your memory from that era has fared better
>than mine.  If not, well, peace and love to you anyway.
>
It was "bota bag" for my and my set.  (Talk about buzzwords!)

Larry Horn


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:33:59 2004
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:33:59 -0600
Subject: architecting
Message-ID: 

Last month I was teasing my sister about her website update, in which she
uses the verb "rearchitect" to describe some work she did on a corporate
website. www.seneb.com. Looking at some of her project descriptions that use
variants of the term "architect" as a verb, I would argue that there is a
struggle going on over this semantic space. "architect" looks like it is
deployed to differentiate the structuring of information pathways from the
visual-oriented "design" of web pages.

ccr

-----Original Message-----
From: Wendalyn Nichols [mailto:wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:52 AM
Subject: architecting


Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of a
job posted by an investment firm:

"Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."


Wendalyn Nichols


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:42:18 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:42:18 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

Douglas Wilson asks:

> What is "Jazz 3e et."? I'm generally ignorant of French.
>
> Is it "Jazz troisie`me e'tude" = "Jazz, third study" maybe? Then would
> there be a couple of earlier "jazz" works?
>

I am supposing that this is the meaning of the abbreviation and also its significance.  Two of the three other paintings on this theme in this book are also dated '15, but none are given any title or identified as an 1st or 2nd attempt at this subject.  But earlier versions might have been very casual and not saved by Gleizes or otherwise lost, or perhaps casual and not recognized by him as drafts of a subject he intended to treat in a finished work until he was did the 3rd version.  In this latter case, the 1st and 2nd attempts might be the two other studies reproduced in this book.

My impression from this catalog raisonne and some other stuff I've looked at is that Gleizes did not visit Chicago while he was in the U. S.  He was not here very long, but his stay was for several months, so a trip to Chicago could have been possible.  I do not see that his letters have been published.

Another French artist visiting the U. S at about this time was Francis Picabia, who also made a study of musicians, dated, if I recall, 1914, but since he didn't identify them as "jazz" musicians, his painting is of merely artistic interest.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 18:45:03 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:45:03 -0500
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 8:59 PM -0800 3/10/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>... People around here often refer to themselves or another
>>  > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--...
>>The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells",
>
>Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"?
>
So we can distinguish them from callers to sports talk radio.

Larry


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Thu Mar 11 19:00:41 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:00:41 +0000
Subject: obscene words from "Deadwood"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> At 8:59 PM -0800 3/10/04, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>> ... People around here often refer to themselves or another
>>>  > person as "Outraged of Chichester" or "Miffed of Glynde"--...
>>> The classic example of this type is "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells",
>>
>> Why is it "of" and not either "from" or "in"?

'Of' is a pretty common designator of place in British English (didn't
strike me as strange when I came here, though, so can't be too far from my
American sensibilities, such as they are).  For example, a local carpet
shop is "Blatchingtons of Hove" and a music store "Chappell of Bond
Street".

And then you have folks like Anne of Cleves.

If you were to say 'in' it wouldn't sound like you lived there or were from
there--you'd sound like a reporter who's gone there to have a look around.
'From' indicates a place of origin.  But 'of' associates you with the place
more fully (and it with you, I'd say).

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 19:39:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:39:37 -0500
Subject: Schawafel (shawarma + falafel), Amba Sauce
Message-ID: 

   This is from today's amNEW YORK (www.am-ny.com), 11 March 2004, pg. 16, col. 2:

_Fabu falafel_
(...)
Chickpea
23 Third Avenue, East Village
212-254-9500

PHOTO CAPTION:  The "Schawafel" combination plate, served only at Chickpea.
(O Google hits--ed.)
(...)
(Col. 4--ed.)
   With a perfect combination of succulent shred of well-marinated meat and crunchy carmelized outer nuggets, Chickpea's shawarma is one of the best in New York.  Douse the holy kosher meat with amba sauce, a piquant Iraqi hot sauce that combines sweet mangos with hot chili.


(If it's shawarma+falafel, where did the "c" come from?  Schwab's?...Back to ten hours of parking tickets, then I'll get home and relax and read about a massacre in Spain--ed.)

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
How to make Amba Sauce
I am looking for the secret how to make AMBA, the tasty yellow souce for
all kind of middle east dishes. The only seasoning I know is mango. ...
israel.lists.il-talk - Sep 19, 1998 by bliebig at gmx.de - View Thread (1 article)

Re: WHY HITLER KILLED THE JEWS? Why do Jews murder Palestinians
... I ordered extra Amba sauce to celebrate. ... I ordered extra Amba sauce
to celebrate." It certainly isn't unbiased factual reporting
soc.culture.german - Dec 15, 2003 by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj - View Thread (48 articles)

Saddam's JFK Moment
... and anger and then shock. Their faces mirrored sorrow. I ordered
extra Amba sauce to celebrate. The sorrow of the Arab students ...
alt.politics.bush - Dec 15, 2003 by jose soplar - View Thread (1 article)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 11 19:47:45 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:47:45 -0500
Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden
In-Reply-To: <915644FF-7380-11D8-A3B4-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:21 AM -0800 3/11/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Mar 11, 2004, at 6:19 AM, James Smith asked:
>
>>So, Arnold, what is the past participle of "to stride"
>>that sounds natural to you or your students?
>
>there is none; this is a paradigm gap for us.  that was why i mentioned
>it.
>
Maybe "He moved in a way I would call striding."  Sort of like "Send
me a mongoose; make it twins."  Or, for that matter, "Either he is
going, or I am".

larry horn


From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET  Thu Mar 11 20:02:34 2004
From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:02:34 -0800
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 09:33 AM 3/11/04, Susan wrote:

>RE: Page Stephens' friend John re: wineskin
>There is another word for wineskin., in particular -- 2 syllables,
>starts with an "o" -- but I don't remember using it, though it's more
>specifically correct.

olpe ?


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 11 20:14:01 2004
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:14:01 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20subject-verb=20agre?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ement=20-=20stridden?=
Message-ID: 

A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat "ridden",
why can't "stride" beget "stridden?"



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Mar 11 21:21:19 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:21:19 -0800
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

Does anyone remember that cop spoof show in the 80s called 'Sledge Hammer'? He was a one man I'm-gonna- solve- all- the- crime- by- myself type of guy.  He hated criminals worse than poison and liberals more than criminals.  I do remember him saying 'Yogurt-sucking' . If you can find that show somewhere on the reruns (or on Ebay), I'm sure it would provide a lot of phrases.
Fritz Juengling

>>> dwhause at JOBE.NET 03/10/04 07:05PM >>>
So far, the 'best' right to left insult I've heard is "Birkenstock-wearing,
tofu-sucking, bunny-hugging, Yuppie tree-faggot."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" 

Here are some others:


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Mar 11 21:31:55 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:31:55 -0800
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

The phrase "L-word" was around during the '84 election.  The ploy worked, too--only one state went to Mondale.
Fritz J

>>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 03/11/04 09:49AM >>>
> to them "liberal" is a term of disrespect.<
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Geo HW Bush gave this an added twist back in '88, running agst Dukakis, by
referring to "the L word" in a manner that suggested that it was only with
the greatest reluctance that he sullied his lips with such a rude
expression.
A. Murie


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Mar 11 19:16:08 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:16:08 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500 Laurence Horn 
writes:

> It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the
> generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative
> buzzwords.  Liberals are more likely to refer to "families"

Or more often "workingfamilies." It used to be "workingmen" then
"workingmenandwomen." But now I guess it includes the kid who mows the
lawn instead of going to polo practice.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar 12 00:30:50 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:30:50 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_subject-verb_agreement_-_stri?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dden?=
In-Reply-To: <15e.2c354875.2d822289@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 11, 2004, at 12:14 PM, Steve Boatti wrote:

> A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat
> "ridden",
> why can't "stride" beget "stridden?"

well, obviously it can; the dictionaries that list "stridden" as the
past participle presumably have citations for this form.  i never
denied that *some* people have "stridden"; i merely claimed that a
great many have a paradigm gap here.  (i see that the Cambridge Grammar
lists "stridden" with a question mark.)

so the question is: why doesn't analogy work here?  the answer is
complex, but it depends on the observation that some analogies are
hugely more likely than others.  the analogies normally tap into the
morphological regularities of the language.

why isn't the past participle "strided"?  the answer is that past tense
forms are much more frequent than past participle forms, and that -ed
past participles are almost without exception simply identical to the
pasts.  so you're going to hear past "strode" before (and more
frequently than) any past participle for "stride" that you might hear,
and once you've registered "strode" as the past, "strided" is no longer
available as the past participle.  (but if you hear enough instances of
"strided" as a *past tense* form, then "strided" as past participle
becomes possible.)

once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are then
four possible analogies giving a past participle:

1.  pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven)
2.  pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken)
3.  pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found)
4.  pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven)

the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar
with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
"strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write.  (note that
all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have
an alveolar obstruent after it.  so "stride" fits well into this
class.)

so, given the system of english morphology, what you'd *like* to go for
is
   (a) stride - strided - strided
but once you've learned "strode" you have to go for some irregular
pattern.  the best of these is pattern 4 ("stridden"):
   (b) stride - strode - stridden
but you might easily not have extracted a mini-pattern for these few
verbs; if you haven't, you have nowhere to go:
   (c) stride - strode - GAP.

("stroden", "striden", and "strode" are not impossible, just very very
unlikely.)

the larger point is that people do in fact live with paradigm gaps.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Mar 12 00:37:49 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:37:49 -0800
Subject: Fw: hippie trivia question
In-Reply-To: <200403110933.1b1u3E8p3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: 

>...We called them "botas" and that's still how they're referred to
>occasionally around here (still selling in souvenir markets, etc.)

We added the "bag" (i.e., bota bag) most of the time.

Rima


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Mar 12 00:49:45 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:49:45 -0500
Subject: snow-related deaths
Message-ID: 

from my wife:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:01:30 -0500
From: Rene s Mandel
Subject: A Philadelphia Euphemism

A response when I asked someone who said she was 4th
generation Philadelphian, land of cheese-steaks and
snow-related deaths, what a snow-related death was:

Well, we didn't have any this year, but last year they were referred to as
"snow-related deaths" by the news when somebody stole somebody else's
shoveled parking place (you know, the ones people put lawnchairs on to
protect?) and the "owner" of said spot shot him.

It was just funny because everyone I talked to knew what had happened just
from the title.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 01:55:51 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:55:51 -0500
Subject: 'mo
Message-ID: 

Grace to Will, on tonight's Will & Grace:

"Be a *guy*, ya big 'mo!"

larry horn


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 03:23:59 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:23:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"
In-Reply-To: <140.2410b382.2d815a7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Here's another example of a word first appearing as the name of a horse.


cosmonaut (OED 1959)

1955 _Wash. Post_ 26 July 19 (ProQuest)  Saratoga Results ... Cosmonaut
[name of horse].


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 03:45:53 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:45:53 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Karate"
In-Reply-To: <200403120324.i2C3O1A28362@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

karate (OED 1955)

1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest)  Regardless of what the
occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese
sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to
break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes.  It's a combination of boxing,
wrestling and kicking called karate.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 12 05:11:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:11:37 EST
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:24:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


>
> Here's another example of a word first appearing as the name of a horse.
>
>
> cosmonaut (OED 1959)
>
> 1955 _Wash. Post_ 26 July 19 (ProQuest)  Saratoga Results ... Cosmonaut
> [name of horse].
>
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955
...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky,
holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery
Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems. COSMONAUT
Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet
maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955  833 k

Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955
...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space
for 10 minutes..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955  790 k

Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955
...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the
astronauts a..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955  847 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 12 05:07:24 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:07:24 EST
Subject: Antedating of "Karate"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/11/2004 10:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


> karate (OED 1955)
>
> 1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest)  Regardless of what the
> occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese
> sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to
> break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes.  It's a combination of boxing,
> wrestling and kicking called karate.
>
> Fred Shapiro

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gazette And Bulletin - 3/10/1947
...JAPANESE jni jiUu training garments (killed KARATE men wear a "Bell'
attesting their.....go instead -of just practicing. The KARATE stamp their bare
feet on the cold.....say about basing cut out all the Ijarbarian JAPANESE sports,
the at university still.....students eagerly every bruCal movyin the KARATE V
inch varied I thls 'week'Tnelr vote..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Monday, March 10, 1947  574 k


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 12 05:18:44 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:18:44 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Karate"
Message-ID: 

That same AP story ran a week earlier.
...go instead -of just practicing. The KARATE stamp their bare feet on the
cold.....Japanese jni jiUu training garments (killed KARATE men wear a
"Bell' attesting their.....students eagerly every bruCal movyin the KARATE V
inch varied I thls 'week'Tnelr vote.....alr and vilent kicks in the. groin.
KARATE men are taught how to deliver sudden..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania   Monday, March 10, 1947  574 k
Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: Antedating of "Karate"


> karate (OED 1955)
>
> 1947 _Wash. Post_ 16 Mar. M11 (ProQuest)  Regardless of what the
> occupation chiefs say about having cut out all the barbarian Japanese
> sports, the students at Waseda University are still being taught how to
> break arms, crack necks and gouge eyes.  It's a combination of boxing,
> wrestling and kicking called karate.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Mar 12 05:54:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:54:26 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"
In-Reply-To: <1d0.1bc159f2.2d82a089@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955
>...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky,
>holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery
>Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems.
>COSMONAUT
>Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet
>maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous..
>Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955  833 k
>
>Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955
>...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space
>for 10 minutes..
>Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955  790 k
>
>Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955
>...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the
>astronauts a..
>Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955  847 k

Something is a little bit wrong here. Gagarin was the first one up, in
1961, right?

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 12 06:15:19 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:15:19 EST
Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921); Shooting fish in a barrel
 (1911)
Message-ID: 

SOMETHING THE CAT DRAGGED IN

CAT DRAGGED IN--11,100 Google hits, 7,040 Google Groups hits
DOG DRAGGED IN--245 Google hits, 142 Google Groups hits

   This is listed in the DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS (1993, pg. 104) as from
"hunting," but no date is given.  OED has one mention of "something the cat
dragged in" from 1973.
   I had a cat, but all it did was sleep and eat.  It didn't drag in
anything.
   Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs?  I've heard that dogs
will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mansfield News - 4/25/1921
...contest always look like somethINg the CAT DRAGGED IN? Our observation has
been that.....New York to lad., wheelINg her two children IN a baby carriage,
termINated IN Elizabeth.....extended for a j accident to the carriage IN
Elizabeth figured materially IN Mrs. Alien.....than people now live ia patched
houses, IN cellars and IN hats, constructed by the..
Mansfield, Ohio Monday, April 25, 1921  688 k

Marion Star - 4/25/1921
...beauty contest alwiys look like somethINg CAT DRAGGED IN? out tools. I 4
IB addition to.....credits, lINd fINancial j IN operations IN connection willi
Buell trade, Trade i IN.....by frr.grofs lila IN extraction, share? IN ihis
"iroi.rovc-.j-r-. el fottcrncfj IN.....No. lim HIJMF COnnCE. Daily Proverb IN
honestly, lill IJO raaii'; IN K'-.'bhors..
Marion, Ohio Monday, April 25, 1921  590 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL

SHOOT FISH IN A BARREL-349 Google hits, 642 Google Groups hits
SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL--12,700 Google hits, 17,600 Google Groups hits

   The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS (pg. 102) has 1939.
   OED ("miserable on food"--oops, "miserable on sports") has nothing?

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sheboygan Daily Press - 6/30/1911
...wheAt iA this country is like shootINg FISH IN A bArrel. ThAt's the kINd
of A yeAr I.....first corner he spied Bessie's Aunt, book IN hAnd, com fortAbly
ensconced IN A hAmmock.....IN A Tree. PhilAdelphiA. Accosted by trAmps IN A
smAll strip of woods IN GermAntown.....grAy wAtered silk or grAy sAtIN And
mounted IN gun metAl And, IN dull gilt. The gun metAl..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 30, 1911  983 k


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Mar 12 06:24:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:24:26 -0500
Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921); Shooting fish in a
 barrel (1911)
In-Reply-To: <1dc.1c2a4e6e.2d82af77@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>SOMETHING THE CAT DRAGGED IN
>....   I had a cat, but all it did was sleep and eat.  It didn't drag in
>anything.
>    Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs?  I've heard that dogs
>will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers.

Cats bring home the mutilated corpses of mice and other small creatures
sometimes, and I suppose this is the basis for the expression.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 12 06:54:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:54:51 EST
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"; Crying Towel (1929)
Message-ID: 

RE: COSMONAUT

   Ach!  It looks like the "1955" Sheboygan newspaper is off, too.  I'm
making a list of Newspaperarchive errors.  I couldn't open up the article.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CRYING TOWEL

CRYING TOWEL--4,190 Google hits, 3,740 Google Groups hits

   Not in OED.  The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS gives no date.
   I discussed "crying towel" before on ADS-L, but I can't open up our
archives right now, either...I checked THE SPORTING NEWS, but it's not close to
these cites.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Bedford Gazette - 10/31/1930
...sportsmen nor do we: -deem it advisable to "CRYING, TOWEL" when, .the,
home: .team loses..
Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, October 31, 1930  965 k

Chronicle Telegram - 11/19/1930
...the Xotre Dame supporters to get? out the 'CRYING TOWEL' just because they
have lost Joe.....than "Pug" Rentner and you don't see us CRYING over
Rentner's loss. We'll miss..
Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, November 19, 1930  940 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 10/24/1931
...the other day and we went running for the CRYING TOWEL Amalgamated Gadgets
are of the..
Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, October 24, 1931  869 k

Coshocton Tribune - 11/18/1930
...Nov. 18. Professional golfers got out their CRYING TOWELS today and
mourned the..
Coshocton, Ohio Tuesday, November 18, 1930  667 k

Havre Daily News - 12/6/1930
...Associated Press) ROCKVILLE CENTER, N. Y. CRYING TOWELS are being
distributed by the..
Havre, Montana Saturday, December 06, 1930  869 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 11/20/1930
...long been the cause of an active market in CRYING TOWELS when he starts to
tell of what.....than any man who has ever owned tfurro. "CRYING Jim" has..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, November 20, 1930  736 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 12/6/1930
...will be handled. Rockville Centre, N. Y. CRYING TOWELS are being
distributed by the..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Saturday, December 06, 1930  833 k

Chronicle Telegram - 4/9/1929
...sending for j CHICAGO, April 9. A Unke, the CRYING TOWELS before
mid-summer. And there..
Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, April 09, 1929  933 k

Sheboygan Press - 4/10/1929
...has the opposition sending for the CRYING TOWELS before mid-summer. And
there..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Wednesday, April 10, 1929  914 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 11:28:29 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:28:29 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"
In-Reply-To: <1d0.1bc159f2.2d82a089@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Sheboygan Press - 6/3/1955
> ...1963 by astronaut Gordon Cooper. A Russian COSMONAUT, Valeri Bykovsky,
> holds the record.....once a day and White three times. Soviet COSMONAUT Valery
> Bykovsky holds the present.....have sought solutions to the problems. COSMONAUT
> Alexi Leonov, the only previous man.....But the Soviets have not yet
> maneuvered a COSMONAUT craft or conducted rendezvous..
> Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 03, 1955  833 k
>
> Sheboygan Press - 6/4/1955
> ...in the void as Alexei Leonov, the Soviet COSMONAUT who tumbled in space
> for 10 minutes..
> Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955  790 k
>
> Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955
> ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the
> astronauts a..
> Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955  847 k

Don't you think these just might be misdated?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 12:15:07 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:15:07 -0500
Subject: Slight Antedating of "Bamboo Curtain"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

bamboo curtain (OED 1949 Mar.)

1949 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Feb. 42 (ProQuest)  If a Communist government chooses
to lower a "bamboo curtain" around China's economy the United States
stands to lose all or part of nearly a $400,000,000 chunk of annual trade
from its total $2,000,000,000 yearly business wiht the Orient.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 12 12:25:09 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:25:09 -0500
Subject: Slight Antedating of "Veep"
In-Reply-To: <200403121215.i2CCFAf17850@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

veep (OED 1949 June)

1949 _Wash. Post_ 28 May B14 (ProQuest)  [Bob] Hope has become a favorite
pal of Veep Alben Barkley.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Mar 12 13:37:19 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:37:19 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Cosmonaut"; Crying Towel (1929)
In-Reply-To: <1dd.1c33b35f.2d82b8bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 01:54:51AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> CRYING TOWEL
>
> CRYING TOWEL--4,190 Google hits, 3,740 Google Groups hits
>
>    Not in OED.  The DICTIONARY OF SPORTS IDIOMS gives no date.

HDAS 1928, citing Zwilling's TAD Lexicon.

JTS


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 12 15:33:25 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:33:25 -0500
Subject: 'mo
Message-ID: 

From:    Laurence Horn 

: Grace to Will, on tonight's Will & Grace:

: "Be a *guy*, ya big 'mo!"

Proof that TV scriptwriters read ADS-L as a way of keeping up with current
linguistic trends.

Entirely :-| , of course.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 12 15:36:07 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:36:07 -0500
Subject: subject-verb agreement - stridden
Message-ID: 

From:    Steve Boatti 

: A very amusing discussion. I can't help wondering, if "ride" begat
: "ridden", why can't "stride" beget "stridden?"

FTR, "stridden" is what I came up with--but then again, my past tense for
collide is collid[1] and my past of highlight is highlit, so y'all can feel
free to ignore any of my verb intuitions.

But while I won't argue that paradigm gaps are impossible, I think analogy's
a very powerful force--and for stridden, it'd be a *particularly* powerful
one, since it's got both hide-hid-hidden *and* ride-rode-ridden in its
favor.

[1] Seriously. It's strong enough that if I'm reading, say, a newspaper
article aloud to someone, I'll often unconsciously replace collided with
collid.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Mar 12 17:14:53 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:14:53 -0500
Subject: politically sensitive labels
Message-ID: 

For your information I am putting up an article I wrote for another list
about the current ideological use of "the family."

I wrote it in a political context on a conservative list so please excuse
its polemical tone. I thought, however, that it might bring a little light
into the current discussions of the politicization of the word "family" and
by extension "the family".  I just thought it might be of interest to you
and clarify a few issues.

Page Stephens

How many of you have listened to our politicians telling us that the basis
of all societies is the family.

Had any of my students written that on an exam in anthropology 1 I would
have flunked them because it is absolute nonsense.

The only socio-cultural formations which were ever family based were even
marginally family based were marginal hunting and gathering groups who lived
in areas where it was impossible to form higher level groups because they
were unable technologically to support more than very small groups as per
the Great Basin Shoshone. This also accounts for the fact that they had
bilateral kinship terminologies which were appropriate to such forms of
social formation. But even the Great Basin Shoshone gathered into larger
groups when they were able to do it as during the season when pine nuts were
plentiful and when they hunted antelope which of necessity required larger
numbers of people than the family could provide.

The fact is that families are functional groups within an environment writ
large, i.e. in terms of both physical/technological limitations and the
functional demands of larger scale social formations.

The Shoshone were the exception rather than the rule, moreover, and you find
very few other examples of even marginally family based socio-cultural
formations.

This is a fact whether our politicians want to recognize it or not their
incessant quest for office quite often overcomes their common sense and lack
of knowledge of  anthropology.

Even hunting and gathering groups which had access to more fertile
environments such who lived in fertile areas such as along river banks where
fish were combined into larger socio cultural groups.

There is a feed back problem here because such marginal groups as the Great
Basin Shoshone were unable to develop higher levels of technology because of
their migratory existence.

This brings up the recent nonsense which George W. Bush among others is
promulgating to the public in terms of marriage as something which underlies
and always has underlain every society which has ever existed and that
therefore we need to pass a constitutional amendment which would forbid gays
from marrying.

His and their ignorance is so sublime that it would surpass understanding if
we did not know that he and they were attempting to bounce the boobs, i.e.
the ignoranti in order to get themselves elected or reelected to office by
pulling every cultural string they are able to in order to keep from being
put into the unemployment line.

Most of them I would argue are simply ignorant fools who can on this level
be excused for not knowing the difference between marriage which is a
ceremony and the family which is a functional social unit and who therefore
do not know the difference between the two. I will also excuse them on the
ground of sheer ignorance for suggesting that marriage as we know it is and
has always been a universal in human society even though it has differed in
many ways in different societies.

I will not forgive those of them who thump the Bible without ever having
read it and declare that it suggests that there is one and only one form of
marriage and the family which coincidentally happens to be the one which
those who would elect them to office believe in.

In this case they are not only ignorant of the nature of human
socio-cultural formations but also ignorant of the texts which they claim to
be their authority for their august proclamations.

It makes me want to gag because at least I, a total nonbeliever in the
existence of any gods, spirits, etc., have apparently read the book they
consider to be holy and know more about what it says in terms of marriage
and the family than they do.

I invite you all to read the Bible some day and then tell me if you think
the pronouncements of our politicians on the subject of marriage and the
family have any more relationship to what the Bible says than a snake has
hips.

Then after you have been disillusioned about what our politicians are saying
about the absolute commandments of the god which wrote the holy book they
claim to worship in terms of marriage and the family I invite you to read an
elementary textbook on anthropology.

I am not attempting to disillusion you in terms of your various beliefs in
the existence of gods, spirits, etc.

I am attempting to disillusion you about what our politicians are telling
you in terms of  the universality of "the family" "marriage", etc.

Don't believe me then read the Bible and one you have carefully read it we
can go from there.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Campbell" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: politically sensitive labels


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Duane Campbell 
> Subject:      Re: politically sensitive labels
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:11:36 -0500 Laurence Horn 
> writes:
>
> > It should be noted that "family" itself--in particular, in the
> > generic singular of "the family"--is another of the conservative
> > buzzwords.  Liberals are more likely to refer to "families"
>
> Or more often "workingfamilies." It used to be "workingmen" then
> "workingmenandwomen." But now I guess it includes the kid who mows the
> lawn instead of going to polo practice.
>
> D
>
> I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Mar 12 17:46:30 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:46:30 -0500
Subject: Rode hard, put away wet (1958)
Message-ID: 

Here is a reference to Tennessee Ernie's use of the phrase.

I am curious if anyone else ever used pea-pickin' or pea pickers in the way
he did.

My guess is that he invented the term in that sense but I do not know.

If any of you ol' pea pickers are able to find any reference to it other
than Tennessee Ernie his original stage name before he went uptown and
discovered he had a last name and became more respectable in the 1950s I
would love to
hear about it.

It is from http://www.tvacres.com/catch_b.htm

Page Stephens

"Bless your pea-pickin' hearts" - The signature signoff of singer comedian
Ernie Ford who hosted the musical variety THE FORD SHOW/NBC/1956-61. He was
fond of ending his program with traditional religious songs which he called
the "finest love songs of all". Born Ernest Jennings Ford in 1919 in the
town of Bristol, Tennessee, "Tennessee" Ernie Ford was the first country
singer to appear at the Paladium in London in 1953. His homespun humor and
corny country ways were evident in such phrases like "Nervous as a
long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" and "Feels like I've been
rode hard and put away wet". Inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in
1990, Ernie Ford died of complications due to liver ailments on October 17,
1991. His most popular song was "Sixteen Tons" written by Merle Travis in
1947.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Mar 12 23:27:08 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:27:08 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?=
In-Reply-To: <11b.2ee5ae76.2d7a00ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused
>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there
>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.

Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.

Bethany


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar 13 00:40:18 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:40:18 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_'mo_=3D_homo?=
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 12, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it
>> confused
>> with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not
>> that there
>> is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.
>
> Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.

/za/.  derived from the spelling, presumably.

stanford is famous for two-part back-clipping, giving CoHo for Coffee
House, CoPo for Corner Pocket, FloMo for Florence Moore (a dorm),
MemChu for Memorial Church, etc.  the pronunciations are all based on
the spellings of the clipped forms.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 13 00:42:22 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:42:22 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it confused
>>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not that there
>>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.
>
>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.
>
>Bethany

I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go].
I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but
I think the spelling pronunciation prevails.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 13 01:02:24 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:02:24 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: <00B2104A-7487-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:40 PM -0800 3/12/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Mar 12, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>>It SOUNDS like something I've heard before, but maybe I'm getting it
>>>confused
>>>with 'za = pizza, which has certainly been around for a while. Not
>>>that there
>>>is much of a semantic connection between 'mo and 'za.
>>
>>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.
>
>/za/.  derived from the spelling, presumably.
>
>stanford is famous for two-part back-clipping, giving CoHo for Coffee
>House, CoPo for Corner Pocket, FloMo for Florence Moore (a dorm),

cf. HoJo (Howard Johnson, both the food chain and the ex-Mets
baseball player), FloJo (Florence Joyner).  Which came first, I
wonder?  In particular, was HoJo a model for the Stanfordiana, given
the recurrence of the -o motif?   In any case, spelling rules in all
these cases, as with SoHo (for south of Houston St., both with [au]
nuclei), TriBeCa (Triangle below Canal St.), and other neighborhood
clipronyms in NYC and I assume elsewhere.  Of course, SoHo is based
partly on the London neighborhood name which isn't a clipronym.

larry

>MemChu for Memorial Church, etc.  the pronunciations are all based on
>the spellings of the clipped forms.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sat Mar 13 01:06:17 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:06:17 -0600
Subject: Something the cat dragged in (1921);
Message-ID: 

A series of dogs have never dragged in anything in particular (although one
sometimes came in the house with a guilty look on her face and released the
June bug she had in her mouth.)  Our female cats weren't draggers-in, but
two of three consecutive tomcats have brought many things - the first
specialized in critters such as mice, frogs, and once a tomato worm the size
of my thumb;  the second used to 'kill' dishtowels my wife had set to dry on
the porch, clumps of grass, paper towels, and similar items.  Both would
bring their prizes to the door, meow until you came out to admire their
'kill', and then stalk away.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: 

   Do cats drag in a whole lot more stuff than dogs?  I've heard that dogs
will get your your newspaper, frisbee, maybe even slippers.


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar 13 01:16:16 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:16:16 -0800
Subject: useful site for finding movie maledictions
In-Reply-To: <200401310340.i0V3e2R08875@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: 

http://www.screenit.com is a movie review site that among other
things provides parental warnings on what they consider offensive
language. A Google search on, e.g., "skank OR skanks site:
screenit.com" turns up 31 different films containing the word; a
search on "faggot OR faggots site:screenit.com" turns up 77.

You can get a sense of how widely they cast their net from the list
of offensive terms they give for the recent movie "Bad Santa":

Phrases: "F*ck-ass," "Loud f*cing asshole," "F*cking hilarious,"
"F*ck the loofa, let's go," "F*ck you," "F*ck me?" "Get the f*ck out
of here," "F*ck stick" (penis), "What the f*ck /are you doing/is that
/do you care/are you doing here/are you talking about?" "F*ck this,"
"What the f*ck "F*cking retard," "F*ck me Santa" (sexual and said
many times), "Are you /off your f*cking meds/f*cking with me?"
"F*ckers," "You're f*cking me," "The sound of f*cking someone in the
ass," "Thank the f*ck Christ," "I f*ck one person," "Clean as a
f*cking whistle," "No f*cking way," "He's a/you f*cking moron,"
"Jesus f*cking Christ," "He's a f*cking faggot," "More butt-f*cking,"
"Sh*tty," "Bullsh*t," "Pack your sh*t," "I don't give a sh*t,"
"Dipsh*t (loser)," "No sh*t," "You're not going to sh*t right for a
week," "Shat," "Sh*t yeah," "(I'll be dipped in) Dog sh*t," "This is
bullsh*t," "Well, sh*t kid," "You scared the holy sh*t out of me,"
"Don't want sh*t," "Sh*t happens when you party naked (seen on a
T-shirt), "You sneaky little pr*ck," "Nothing sucks more ass than
this," "Brats," "Pissing," "You pissed yourself," "You're an
asshole," "My ass," "Piss everything away," "Bastards," "Midget,"
"Schmo," "Loser," "Fat ass," "Moron," "Dumb ass," "Snot rag,"
"Freaking me out," "You asshole," "Who's the bitch now?" "Ass clown,"
"Chicks" and "Broads" (women), "Nut job," "Balls" and "Nuts"
(testicles), "Let's get the hell out of here," "Your pathetic," "Mind
your own G*ddamn business," "Screw you," "You idiot," "What the hell
is that?" "Are you insane?" "Sorry ass," "Shut up," "Sucks," "He
kicked my ass," "You jack-off" and "Bitch."


Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 01:49:28 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:49:28 EST
Subject: Long-Tailed Cat & Rocking Chairs (1953); Off Like a Dirty Shirt
 (1948)
Message-ID: 

NERVOUS AS A LONG-TAILED CAT IN A ROOM FULL OF ROCKING CHAIRS

LONG-TAILED CAT + ROCKING CHAIRS--749 Google hits, 649 Google Groups hits

   The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS doesn't have a
single quotation from Tennessee Ernie Ford.  Maybe Tennessee wasn't American
enough?
   Beware that it's "HOUSE full of rocking chairs" as well as "ROOM full of
rocking chairs."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Salisbury Times - 9/30/1953
...of a long-TAILED CAT in a house full of ROCKING CHAIRS. For a woman to
pick out her.....t going to be ever. So they kept him in a ROOM on the third
floor and never mentioned.....all the rest of his life, smirking, lering. ROCKING
his head, radiating savoir faire.....homegrown apple, instead of as nervous as
a CAT in an aviarv. The little fellow was shown..
Salisbury, Maryland Wednesday, September 30, 1953  603 k

Gettysburg Times - 12/6/1954
...of I a long-TAILED CAT in a house ftffi'rf ROCKING CHAIRS. Vol. 52, No.
289 Adams Only.....will be gives in j parade st Harrisburg. j ROOM 101 at the
high school building j.....of the j at St. lanatius and travel needs CAT.hoiic
Church, Buchanan. Valley, xhursaay..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, December 06, 1954  974 k

Times Recorder - 10/1/1957
...we are as nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS."
Mrs. A. G.....life's most difficult problems. The Office CAT Television sets
will never replace.....By Jimmy Hallo 4N HOUR READING IN THE DOC'S ROOM BEFORE
HE BECKONED TO THE IMMER S4MCTUM.....Harrison of Confidential went into a club
ROOM known as a hangout of stars and one of..
Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, October 01, 1957  762 k

Newark Advocate - 5/6/1958
...As nervous as long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is the
kind of.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a sunny porch.
Although he'd like more..
Newark, Ohio Tuesday, May 06, 1958  616 k

Williamsport Sun Gazette - 5/10/1958
...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in i8 _ROOM fi.ll (if ROCKING CHAIRS" is,
the kind.....W 4Hi tt. ufler tat 2-7 oi Like Well-Fed CAT on Sunny Porch W
illiamspprti Saturday, I..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 10, 1958  363 k

Salisbury Times - 5/6/1958
...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is the.
kind of.....off the road and into a utility pole. The CAT received about
damages, police, estimated.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a
sunny porch. 'Although he'd like..
Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, May 06, 1958  587 k

Newport Daily News - 5/6/1958
...As nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in a. ROOM full of ROCKING CHAIRS" is .the
kind of.....Personally Ford is as relaxed as a well-fed CAT on a sunny porch.
Although he'd like more.....to have been sworn into the Navy today. His ROOM
-mate, also a Navy recruit, followed him.....Robt. Q. Lewlll Newi Draper News
Music ROOM Manic World Tonight .'Elsenhower HsOO..
Newport, Rhode Island   Tuesday, May 06, 1958  766 k

Gettysburg Times - 7/24/1958
...Nervous as a long-TAILED CAT in ROOMful of ROCKING CHAIRS." "I feel like I
been rode.....that I am being watched in the living ROOM, where people are
relaxed where Pop is.....When the receptionist left the waiting ROOM, a moment,
the last "patient..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1958  745 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OFF LIKE A DIRTY SHIRT

OFF LIKE A DIRTY SHIRT--513 Google hits, 173 Google Groups hits

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "off like a bride's nightie" (1960s+),
but otherwise it's a bit off on this.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Let's make like a ...
... Let's make like a prom dress and take off. I'm off like a dirty shirt
Jeannie Signature line? Disclaimer? Why? I don't claim anything. ...
rec.humor - Jul 8, 1991 by Jeannie *wicked witch* West - View Thread (72
articles)
Pg. 2?, col. 3:
   Hot after a news scoop, we took off like a dirty shirt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RE: COSMONAUT

 Sheboygan, Wisconsin Saturday, June 04, 1955  790 k
>
> Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955
> ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the
> astronauts a..
> Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955  847 k

Don't you think these just might be misdated?

Fred Shapiro


   I had already posted that I had made an error in not recognizing the
Newspaperarchive misdating.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Mar 13 02:29:05 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:29:05 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote:

>>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go].
>I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but
>I think the spelling pronunciation prevails.

So is it /tsa/ or /za/?

I find it difficult to imagine saying, "Let's get some /tsa/." What are
typical sentences containing 'za?

?

Thanks,
Bethany


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 13 03:36:14 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:36:14 -0500
Subject: 'mo = homo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>>Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.
>>>
>>
>>I'm pretty sure it rhymes with "pa" or "fa" [a long long way to go].
>>I suppose the only other option would be to rhyme it with "duh", but
>>I think the spelling pronunciation prevails.
>
>So is it /tsa/ or /za/?
>
>I find it difficult to imagine saying, "Let's get some /tsa/." What are
>typical sentences containing 'za?
>
Yours is typical, but without the affricate.  "Let's get some /za/."
Not to be confused with copping some z's, which nobody probably does
anymore.  (At least not in so many words.)

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 13 04:19:56 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:19:56 -0500
Subject: Long-Tailed Cat & Rocking Chairs (1953); Off Like a Dirty
 Shirt (1948)
In-Reply-To: <90.438f4b47.2d83c2a8@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> > Sheboygan Press - 6/10/1955
> > ...The firw: man ever in space, Soviet COSMONAUT Yuri Gagarin, sent the
> > astronauts a..
> > Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, June 10, 1955  847 k
>
> Don't you think these just might be misdated?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>    I had already posted that I had made an error in not recognizing the
> Newspaperarchive misdating.

Sorry, our messages crossed in the ether.  The lesson for all of us is
that Newspaperarchive antedatings are often the products of misdating, and
the article needs to be opened and examined to see whether the date
appears on the page itself.  The more spectacular the antedating, the more
likely it is to be misdated.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Mar 13 06:18:47 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:18:47 -0500
Subject: Early cite for Canuck
Message-ID: 

As Fred Shapiro has recently pointed out, race-horses quite often have names early in the life of a word.

While not an antedating, at least for the derogatory name, I found

20 June, 1840  _Alton(IL) Telegraph_  4?/1(Newspaperarchive)

(An ad for a horse at stud)

<>

Depending on how far back the career of 'Canuck' went, he certainly could have helped popularize the word.  

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 06:44:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:44:54 EST
Subject: Animal Crackers (1883); Whistling Woman & Crowing Hen (1840)
Message-ID: 

ANIMAL CRACKERS

   We'll re-check "animal crackers" on Newspaperarchive.com.  Nabisco
produced the famous ones in 1902, but I had found an earlier "animal crackers"
advertisement in the October 1895 LADIES' HOME JOURNAL.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
North Adams Transcript - 5/14/1900
...experience has taught us what you dark's ANIMAL CRACKERS 6c quart
CHARCOAL, CHARCOAL..
North Adams, Massachusetts Monday, May 14, 1900  0 k

Marion Daily Star - 5/15/1899
...on top of the chiffonier ami a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and
don't forget..
Marion, Ohio Monday, May 15, 1899  737 k

Perry Pilot - 4/25/1883
...intervals, along the table, were plates of ANIMAL CRACKERS, standing np to
their tnees.....Such an array of CRACKERS 1 There were CRACKERS as large as a
tea-plate CRACKERS as.....it; but I dare say your father will think CRACKERS
an improvement on any other style of.....sight. There were two banks of square
CRACKERS, built up o represent the piers of a..
Perry, Iowa Wednesday, April 25, 1883  580 k
Pg. 7?, col. 2:
   At 5, they were ushered into the dining-room.  There, in the middle of the
table, was the famous center-piece that has cost the boys so much planning.
There were two banks of square crackers, built up to represent the piers of a
bridge, about eighteen inches high, and across the top rested a mammoth
cracker, two feet long and one and a half feet wide.  On this stood a cracker
elephant, a foot high, with big ears--a regular cracker Jumbo.  He was made to stand
by means of wires that were put into the dough before baking.  Among the
crackers that formed the piers were vines and mosses, supposed to be growing.
   SUch an array of crackers!  There were crackers so large as a
tea-plate--crackers as small as a half-dollar; hard ones and soft ones, square ones and
round ones, sweet ones and those not sweet--eighteen different kinds.  At
intervals, along the table, were plates of animal crackers, standing up to their
knees in wine-colored jelly.  There were cracker-sandwiches and nice little
cracker-pies and cracker-coffee, for a beverage.
   Mrs. Green has to confess that the cracker party was a great success, and
the children declared that they had enjoyed it more than any other which the
twins had given.--_Good Cheer_.

Evening Bulletin - 10/17/1895
...received the booby's prize, a string of ANIMAL CRACKERS. Other Parties.
Little Karl.....and dancing. A new game was played called. ANIMAL Gum
Combination. Prizes awarded to the..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, October 17, 1895  460 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 2/14/1895
...a small boy exclaimed as he sorted over the ANIMAL CRACKERS on his plate,
"Here's a..
Newark, Ohio Thursday, February 14, 1895  1026 k

News - 5/25/1897
...sarnb, 16ct extra ginger snaps. So, ANIMAL CRACKERS; lOo. peiiUta oreams,
200. 0.....BAILINCJS. HET Another large invoice of CRACKERS and rases direct
from tbe celebrated..
Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, May 25, 1897  973 k

Democratic Standard - 4/28/1899
...on top of the cbiSonier and a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and
don't forgot..
Coshocton, Ohio Friday, April 28, 1899  1042 k

Mountain Democrat - 5/13/1899
...on top of chiffonier and a few of those ANIMAL CRACKERS for baby, and
tlori't forget..
Placerville, California Saturday, May 13, 1899  541 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN NEVER COME TO A VERY GOOD END

WHISTLING WOMAN + CROWING HEN--213 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits

   Variously phrased.  Also, "a whistling woman and a crowing hen is neither
good to beast nor men."  Or, "a whistling woman and a crowing hen will always
come to some bad end."
   The following Google site also had "long-tailed cat in a house of rocking
chairs," and we're checking on the other phrases in the "Dixie" list.
Somebody's got to do this stuff, and we now have the tools.


(GOOGLE)
http://uptowncity.com/Dixie/dict3.htm
A whistlin' woman and a crowin' hen never comes to a good end. (Don't put on
airs.)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Gleaner - 6/13/1987
...of and reason for the proverb: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN are
abominations unto.....version of the proverb Is: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN and a
CROWING HEN are neither fit for.....and Man li. give the version: 'A WHISTLING WOMAN
and a CROWING HEN are neither fit for.....Proverbs however, gives. 'A
WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN will fear the old lad..
Kingston, Kingston Saturday, June 13, 1987  497 k

Daily Gleaner - 7/13/1982
...people said it was 'A WHISTLING lass and a CROWING HEN" just as in
England, except that.....Nuff'said. -The Listener WHISTLING WOMAN I recently found
amongst; _. my notes a.....might be' chastised and told "A WHISTLING WOMAN is an
abomination to, the Lord." I do.....they all said "WOMAN" instead of lacs. I
even gathered that..
Kingston, Kingston Tuesday, July 13, 1982  630 k

New Era - 11/20/1889
...ladies, the old saying: A WHISTLING: WOMAN and CROWING HEN, Are neither
fit for.....a fire. On the other hand, though artistic WHISTLING has become
quite an accomplishment..
Humeston, Iowa Wednesday, November 20, 1889  750 k

Republican Compiler - 5/26/1840
...that you say? Sol. Oh nothing. A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN, they
vrsed to say..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 26, 1840  894 k
Pg. 2, col. 4:
   _Sol._--Oh! nothing.  A whistling woman and a crowing hen, they used to
say, ought to be hanged; but I believe you are only a "_cackling hen_."

Frederick Post - 9/17/2001
...my mother's warning that "a WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN come to no
good." Has.....organize one A FAN OF WHISTLING DEAR FAN OF WHISTLING: You're
about to get your wish.....t believe I said that What does an older WOMAN do if
she doesn't like her.....to receive one of those There is also "WHISTLING in
the and "WHISTLING a happy tune..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, September 17, 2001  1835 k

Middletown Times Herald - 2/12/1932
...World War. Q. Is the proverb "A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN is
neither gcod for.....morally responsible for the death of one WOMAN and the injury
of another whose ankle.....She may be to your neighborhood. This WOMAN who's
misunderstood. "A toy wife, a.....value. Q. Who was Mata Hari? A. A native
WOMAN of the Dutch East Indies who was a spy..
Middletown, New York   Friday, February 12, 1932  846 k

Press Gazette - 6/30/1967
...A crooning cow, a CROWING HEN and a WHISTLING WOMAN boded never luck to a
James..
Hillsboro, Ohio Friday, June 30, 1967  529 k

Chronicle Telegram - 9/17/2001
...my mother's warning that "a WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN come to no
good." Has.....organize one A Fan of WHISTLING Dear Fan of WHISTLING: You're
about to get your wish.....to receive one of those There is also "WHISTLING in
the and "WHISTLING a happy tune.....I agree with "Whistler in Jenks, Okla."
WHISTLING IS a beautiful art form. How can..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, September 17, 2001  498 k

Middletown Times Herald - 2/5/1932
...Q. Is the old quotation "A WHISTLING WOMAN and a CROWING HEN, is neither
fit for..
Middletown, New York   Friday, February 05, 1932  863 k

Middletown Times Herald - 3/24/1932
...Is the origin of the proverb "A WHISTLING WOMAN and n CROWING HEN is
neither good for.....than 35 years ago to take pictures of a WOMAN feeding
chickens, a running horse and.....no special distinction was awakened by the CROWING
of cocks, i creased the value of.....down. (i Feminine Psychology I A Hollywood
WOMAN divorced a i J traveling salesman the..
Middletown, New York   Thursday, March 24, 1932  845 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 07:17:56 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:17:56 EST
Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1860); Canuck
Message-ID: 

CANUCK

   I did an important post on "Canuck" on 23 December 1997 (old archives).  I
uncovered interesting 1839 and 1840 cites.  The various spellings make this a
very, very difficult search term.
   Paper of Record is digitizing early Canadian newspapers, and I will
re-visit "Canuck" later this year when many more newspapers are added to the
database.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FISH OR CUT BAIT

  We had discussed this four years ago.  I had posted a cite from the 1868
NEW YORK TIMES.
   Gregory Titelman's AMERICA'S POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS has 1876.
   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "fish or cut bait _phr._ (20C)."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Berkshire County Eagle - 2/16/1860
...is u notice that fORth the must FISH OR CUT BAIT f he that the will hold
out to the.....down ho dashed a throwing t i dutilly was CUT and badly She was
taken tip bat her of.....M the in luning no f sea j f the main CUT off TVS it
higher than tin which thus the.....l with ten the Con i It the ainley A CUT
will be on paper Condition j never liven..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Thursday, February 16, 1860  913 k
Pg. 3?, col. 3:
   His influence has not been for a moment impaired, and his return to power
is a notice that henceforth the Pope must either fish or cut bait.

Janesville Daily Gazette - 7/20/1864
...are subject to draft must cither FISH OR CUT BAIT. The recent rebel raid
up to the.....In' price, In ORder to closo tbiua CUT. If during lilo time wo
rnolreil M remain.....nothing to prevent companies, cORpORations, OR cities from
procuring men to fill their.....quotas from tito white OR blauk inhabitants
of those Htatos, and no..
Janesville, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 20, 1864  924 k

Appleton Crescent - 2/18/1865
...from the draft, the shirks left ,o FISH OR CUT BAIT." The last oppORtunity
to ssvo bo.....including those who have subORibud OR paid, OR intend ;o do
go, to bo present.....who Ivive no homos, and, disabled wo'.nul.i OR sickness,
are unable to supp VAenisul vca..
Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, February 18, 1865  743 k


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Title:  Letters of Major Jack Downing of the Downingville Militia (1864)
Author: Anonymous
Print Source:   Letters of Major Jack Downing of the Downingville Militia
New York : Bromley, 1864.
Pg. 138:  "Wal," ses Linkin, "that all may be very true, but you see, Major,
I've got these contrybands on my hands, an I've got to fish or cut bait."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 07:38:12 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:38:12 EST
Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868)
Message-ID: 

DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits
DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76  Google Groups hits

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a
boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is sorely lacking a
happy dead pig.
   Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Reno Evening Gazette - 12/22/1960
...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe, but when
he gets.....skiers were gettINg a double shot of sunshINe from THE sky and
reflected from THE.....THE 'left wINg' IN THE British Labor party. THE NATO
foreign mINisters met IN Paris THE.....moan THEre won 'THE plenty of polar feaTHEr
IN THE months ahead. TakINg IN a Lot of..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, December 22, 1960  606 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 12/27/1960
...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe. but_ he
gets through.....year IN Western Europe, Western .Europeans, IN 1958, spent
only 86 million IN THE United.....fINds himself IN THE same position. When THE
appoINtment ,was announced, he told THE.....than three million dollars. IN
addition, IN takINg THE job he also accepted a cut IN..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, December 27, 1960  923 k

Helena Independent - 4/16/1934
...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk
about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical
society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from THE glare of
THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN
Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr..
Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934  520 k

Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950
...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe
IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE
selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE Union club IN THE
junior division of THE county style..
Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950  938 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957
...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm
my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon
Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big
side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a staff of n
INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight..
Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957  659 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966
...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller,
whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm
boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his
boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked around THE
country IN contract shops and railroad..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966  619 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950
...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE
exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE coronation of THE
queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as THE 4-H club
parade. THE 4-H club banquet..
Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950  730 k

Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum
cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN THE region IN
THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg..
Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  741 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950
...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE
parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr THE back of THE
head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950  507 k

Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942
...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look,
we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you
avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE
program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need seasonal workers
IN July, IN August and 000 IN October..
Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942  698 k

Morning News Review - 3/30/1924
...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three
hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool of THE late
aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE
iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr
early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE..
Florence, South Carolina   Sunday, March 30, 1924  578 k

Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been
worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum
cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn IN THE grammar
room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been
IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election..
Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  763 k

Helena Independent - 4/16/1934
...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk
about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical
society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from THE glare of
THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN
Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr..
Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934  520 k

Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950
...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe
IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE
selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE Union club IN THE
junior division of THE county style..
Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950  938 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957
...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm
my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon
Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big
side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a staff of n
INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight..
Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957  659 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966
...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller,
whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm
boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his
boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked around THE
country IN contract shops and railroad..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966  619 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950
...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE
exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE coronation of THE
queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as THE 4-H club
parade. THE 4-H club banquet..
Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950  730 k

Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum
cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN THE region IN
THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg..
Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  741 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950
...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE
parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr THE back of THE
head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950  507 k

Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942
...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look,
we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you
avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE
program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need seasonal workers
IN July, IN August and 000 IN October..
Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942  698 k

Morning News Review - 3/30/1924
...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three
hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool of THE late
aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE
iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr
early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE..
Florence, South Carolina   Sunday, March 30, 1924  578 k

Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been
worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum
cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn IN THE grammar
room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been
IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election..
Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  763 k

Petersburg Index - 7/10/1868
...pleased before, uri; now as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Our
foHulli passed off.....and ESTABLISHMENT oifeft unrivalled for THE execution IN THE
most tasteful style THE.....THE Supreme Court of THE United States THE us lo
THE constiLutionalily of THE.....I a Jani of and THE only saw THE traIN IN
motion; but learn '.hut la THE box cars U..
Petersburg, Virginia Friday, July 10, 1868  789 k
Pg. 1, col. 3:
   Even the old complainers, that were never known to be pleased before, are
now as happy as a dead pig in the sunshine.

Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878
...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small
hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a
lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN
broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of Chattahoochee
told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878  952 k

Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878
...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small
hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a
lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN
broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of Chattahoochee
told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878  952 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 08:35:24 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:35:24 EST
Subject: Two shakes of a lamb''s tail (1855); Older than the hills and
 twice as dusty
Message-ID: 

TWO SHAKES OF A LAMB'S TAIL
  
TWO SHAKES OF A "LAMB'S TAIL"--2,070 Google hits, 464 Google Groups hits
  
   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "mid-19C+."  This phrase means 
"immediately, at once."  Also, "three shakes."  Also, "sheep's tail" or "dog's tail" 
or "donkey's tail."
   OED's first "tail shake" is the 1858 PINEY WOODS TAVERN citation below.
   This is quite a colorful American expression.  There's nothing very good 
on Newspaperarchive.  I'll check the American Periodical Series later.
  
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Reno Evening Gazette - 2/26/1880    
...a story of a Maine man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about 
the newspapers.....to Congress in 1823. It ie set forth in TWO passages of' 
that document; which read as.....ignorance as to whether the stranger has a TAIL 
or not. Donate do not all hare TAILs.....are in Herat; The Russians are in 
Merv. TWO thousand police in plain clothes, most of..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, February 26, 1880  578 k     
    
Weekly Reno Gazette - 3/4/1880  
...a story of a Maine maa who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about 
the newspapers.....to Congress in 1823. It is set forth in TWO passages of that 
document, which road as.....ignorance as to whether the stranger has a TAIL 
or not. Comets do not all have TAILs.....spot him. I am glad you have already 
twenty-TWO soldiers. Put Springfield rifles into..
Reno, Nevada Thursday, March 04, 1880  505 k    
    
Daily Nevada State Journal - 4/4/1880   
...footing than for a long A man who core TWO SHAKES of a TAIL the will ride 
fourteen miles.....of a weekly that spoke of him as prominent TWO sons of the 
Prince of Wales are expected.....men in the companies being hit for while TWO 
other noblemen who have just died had.....PHYSICIAN AMD of Went WEBSTER A T TO 
t on TWO below UN TINWARE IRON ROOFING AND..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, April 04, 1880  347 k      
    
Saint Joseph Herald - 2/28/1880     
...teach me. A Maine man, who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about 
the newspapers.....gives us an account of a fight between TWO young men on the 
McAndrews farm. TWO.....with wavy belts harmoniously tinted, while TWO moons 
far apart on the right, and TWO.....fair; And stab ourselves with sorrow s TWO
-edged And yet a little patience..
Saint Joseph, Michigan Saturday, February 28, 1880  1160 k      
    
Star Sentinel - 4/8/1880    
...suit. A MAIXE man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL about the 
newspapers.....AM) .-K.VTiNJSL Office For Sale_or TIIK TWO-STOUY BRICK 
UWKIjLING. nn itultlinorc i.....for us. On ilo account be sparing of grave SHAKES of 
the head and plenty of medicine.....a sociable temperament; and as I had about 
TWO hundred and fifty pounds a year of my own..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, April 08, 1880  919 k    
    
Globe - 2/4/1880    
...Post. A Maine man who didn't care TWO SHAKES of a dead lamb's TAIL about 
newspapers..
Atchison, Kansas Wednesday, February 04, 1880  309 k    
    
Delta Herald - 10/10/1884   
...skin off a full grown tomato in aboui TWO SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL." 
Tomatoes were.....the most intense interest. The way these TWO States vote nest 
Tuesday must have a very.....Business has doubled j within ft year or TWO. Several 
new buildI ings have lately gone.....cannery of W. S. White ford, about TWO 
miles west of town, where we found the..
Delta, Pennsylvania Friday, October 10, 1884  848 k     
    
Fort Wayne Gazette - 10/26/1884     
...vamoose outer that air chair in less'n TWO SHAKES or a steer's TAIL, I'll 
break yer up.....her tasks will ?ave and igrow old ant see TWO or tkbae 
generations her mistresses fade.....reluctance to use the word one or TWO, if their 
own statements are to be.....days before the battle the braves shall eat TWO 
eagle heads, in order to acquire tho..
Fort Wayne, Indiana Sunday, October 26, 1884  945 k     
    
Helena Independent - 12/11/1880     
...BOUTS. A MAINE man, who didn't care THREE SHAKES ot a lamb's TAIL tor the 
newspapers.....MAIN STREET, HELENA, M. T. ONE, TWO AND THREE ACRE LOT3 IN 
GRAND AND MONTANA AVENUE.....Rcildence Lot. FOUIl LOTS ON HIGH STREET. THREE LOTS 
ON BENTON AVENUI. TWO LOTS ON.....Status. shall be permitted nny time within 
THREE months after such restoration, and..
Helena, Montana Saturday, December 11, 1880  663 k      
    
Marion Daily Star - 6/9/1881    
...Boston Post. A man, who didn't care THREE SHAKES of a lamb's TAIL for the 
newspapers.....oops of wide dark satin ribbon outside, or THREE curled tips, 
and a velvet lcing in the.....tree had lived 135'years In the first sixty-THREE 
years, while it had stood in the dense.....an inch in thickness whereas, in 
the first THREE years, they had averagec but 7-100 ths..
Marion, Ohio Thursday, June 09, 1881  697 k     
    
  
(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Bennett, Emerson, (1822-1905): The Phantom of the Forest (1868) 1 match in 1 
of 511 pages
CHAPTER XXX. 
ing again!" / "Ef you'll only go to sleep, like a decent Christian, it 'll be 
morning in about two shakes of a dorg's tail!" said Tom. / "I will do my 
best," sighed Henry, "for I know the fo  
     
Print Source:   The wonderful adventures of Captain Priest
Hammett, Samuel Adams,
New York : H. Long, 1855.   
Pg. 103:  "By the 'living jingo' I'll make 'em, and in two shakes of a 
marlinspike, too."
  
Anderson, Florence: Zenaida (1858) 1 match in 1 of 374 pages
CHAPTER XXV. 
nto the country a couple of miles. Take this note and give it to Mrs. 
Bernard, and be back again in three shakes of a sheep's tail. Do you hear?" / "Yes, I 
hears, Massa Bruce," replied Pluto; "bu     
     
Print Source:   Piney Woods tavern, or, Sam Slick in Texas
Hammett, Samuel Adams,
Philadelphia : T.B. Peterson, 1858. 
Pg. 81:  He looked mighty like the gin-cocktail the barkeeper mixed up fer 
him, and that war _down in the mouth_. in three shakes of a dog's tail, by the 
watch; then tuk another to keep that straight, and 't warn't long afore the 
groceries begin to separate.
  
Dupuy, Eliza A. (1814-1881): The Mysterious Marriage (1858) 1 match in 1 of 
110 pages
CHAPTER XIX. JOSEPHINE'S STORY. 
y else that comes up you can let 'em pass." / "I'll come for to go to git to 
do it in less nor three shakes of a ribnosed sheeps tail." / "That's right, 
now for fun." / Bruin returned t   
     
Kinzie, John H., Mrs. (1806-1870): Mark Logan, the Bourgeois (1871) 1 match 
in 1 of 677 pages
CHAPTER XLII. 
if not, you'll do as you are ordered?for you'll be reported to the colonel in 
less than three shakes of a goose's tail, if you don't stir your stumps." / 
"And I tell you," cried Micha     
     
Print Source:   Fisher's River (North Carolina)
Taliaferro, Hardin E.,
New York : Harper, 1859.    
Pg. 75:  So I tuk off his clothin' in three shakes of a sheep's tail.
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------  
OLDER THAN THE HILLS AND TWICE AS DUSTY
  
TWICE AS DUSTY--78 Google hits, 109 Google Groups hits
  
   Sometimes used with "hills" and sometimes with "mountains."
   I don't see a great cite here.  Surely it's older than 1970.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
clearfield_progress_ - 8/5/1919     
...after feat. Andy wAS AS loose AS AShes and TWICE AS DUSTY and wAS used AS 
the king pin.....returns in "The She-Devil" Drive A Car "AS Good AS New." 
That's Ae way we'll make.....of many thrilling stunts. AS the "point" of 1 the 
pyramid Andy..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Tuesday, August 05, 1919  822 k    
    
Red Bluff Daily News - 10/15/1970   
...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious 
can't be very.....meetings to provide reserve officers AS skilled AS the regular 
deputies they will.....find time for Homecoming. This may come AS somewhat of 
a shock to some of you, but..
Red Bluff, California Thursday, October 15, 1970  650 k     
    
Delphos Daily Herald - 6/21/1894    
...with twenty times more wants, is in reality TWICE AS poor. TUB Idea that a 
diseASe.....Vom which he must emeree at the roof AS DUSTY AS a iciller. Tbe 
bar berry, in a.....where it is the .custom to have ice cream TWICE a week for 
dessert, the principal.....wAS enacted in some European countries AS early AS 
1813. THE woman suffrage..
Delphos, Ohio Thursday, June 21, 1894  1021 k       
    
Decatur Review - 8/5/1920   
...TWICE ESTIMATE. The lASt job wAS more than TWICE AS much AS the original 
estimate. All.....increASed considerably. With the roads AS DUSTY AS they are 
now, a cloud forms when.....ASide in order to get out 100 of these cars AS soon 
AS possible. When finished, they will.....agrees to pay down and 8100 a year 
rental AS long AS the city shall keep the truck. In..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, August 05, 1920  730 k      
    
Lethbridge Herald - 7/16/1951   
...got The road to Waterton. via Cardston, is TWICE AS good AS you've been 
led to believe.....to the townsite. Full of holes and AS DUSTY a desert during a 
hurricane, this road.....Alberta's June and July snows are getting TWICE AS 
mucn publicity in the EAStern press.....not w'e are growing in national 
population AS fASt AS the rapid development of our..
Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, July 16, 1951  779 k    
    
Ironwood Daily Globe - 10/15/1970   
...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious 
can't be very.....her: Keraftn wore her wedding sister AS matron of honor and: 
the quantities, AS do.....Milwaukee, a Photo-Guide is in One Size. AS son, John 
ThomAS, Oct. 8. Mrs. shown..
Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, October 15, 1970  845 k    
    
Frederick Post - 3/24/1969  
...it pointed where the way Would drop and TWICE AS narrow ciose About one, 
while ahead.....i hat ounce of treble gleeUntil a pair AS DUSTY And bare AS 
feet can be (Like two small.....wAS the oldest of the congregation, indeed, AS 
far AS I know) he wAS the oldest person in.....poseo On arms that HttU lacked to 
be AS thin AS what wAS posed, Into that evening..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, March 24, 1969  695 k       
    
clearfield_progress_ - 8/5/1919     
...after feat. Andy wAS AS loose AS AShes and TWICE AS DUSTY and wAS used AS 
the king pin.....returns in "The She-Devil" Drive A Car "AS Good AS New." 
That's Ae way we'll make.....of many thrilling stunts. AS the "point" of 1 the 
pyramid Andy..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Tuesday, August 05, 1919  822 k    
    
Daily Report - 10/15/1970   
...of theater is old AS the hills and TWICE AS DUSTY. Anything so obvious 
can't be very.....imbalance. For them, it is merely natural. AS to the menopause, 
the female hormone.....is more dominant, depending on sex.) Thus AS the male 
hormone gains, comparatively..
Ontario, California Thursday, October 15, 1970  704 k       
    
New Oxford Item - 8/7/1919  
...weighs about 14 pounds. The human brain is TWICE AS large AS that of any 
animal. Tobacco.....worms to fall into and it should be kept AS DUSTY AS 
possible by dragging a log through.....jaw and an opportunity to drive my weapon 
TWICE more against the hairy face. The pain.....singing AS he worked, and before 
noon I had AS cheerful a ship's crew forward AS any man..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Thursday, August 07, 1919  826 k       


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 09:20:08 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:20:08 EST
Subject: Big Dogs/Porch (1986); Same Dog's Tail (1954); Cow in Fly Time
 (1877)
Message-ID: 

IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH

BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits

   Popularized by a bumper sticker.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
INFO-MAC Digest V4 #79
... Small Systems Support NASA - Ames Research Center "If you can't run with
the big
dogs, stay on the porch!" --- archived as [SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ...
mod.mac - Jun 22, 1986 by INFO-MAC-REQUEST at SUMEX-AIM.ARPA.UUCP - View Thread
(1 article)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 10/17/1994
...that if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, you'd best STAY ON THE PORCH, and
I.....It's a road that just doesn't know how BIG it wants to be. Or else, it
wants to be.....ClintON allowed Haiti's military rulers to STAY in power for a
mONth, THEse two worthies.....s growth. Growth is THE number ONe issue ON THE
minds of THE citizens of THE county..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, October 17, 1994  599 k

Frederick Post - 3/17/1999
...to that is if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, STAY ON THE PORCH. Let's do
something.....weaken GOP sway over THE Senate. But THE BIG Banana figures to
go to a Republican.....Bradley or Mr. Gore that THEy might as well STAY home,
saving supporters' mONey and THEir.....worked to dismantle protectiONs against
BIG BroTHEr government. Reno, Freeh and..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, March 17, 1999  641 k

Frederick Post - 3/22/2001
...As THEy say, if you can't run with THE BIG DOGS, STAY ON THE PORCH. And
that saying also.....can't pull THE hills and STAY up to speed, STAY in THE
right lane. Free THE left lane of.....repeats to his trainees: "THE market can
STAY irratiONal for lONger than you can STAY.....Morris stuck with his commitment
to STAY in college for four years when he could..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, March 22, 2001  663 k

Chronicle Telegram - 5/8/1949   (CAUTION!  BAD HIT!  IT'S 1994!--ed.)
...THE BIG DOGS like your ol' Dad. OTHErwise, STAY ON THE PORCH. I'm all for
bridging THE.....has to answer for THE mess. Last week was a BIG ONe all
around for American even if you.....FRANK and JONI PREZELJ AvON Why kill stray DOGS
? I am writing ON behalf of THE article.....cONcerning THE shooting of two
stray DOGS. I agree fully with Tom Parflow and THE..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, May 08, 1949  522 k

News - 10/17/1994
...that if you cant run with THE BIG DOGS, you'd best STAY ON THE PORCH, and
I.....It's a road that just doesn't know how BIG it wants to be. Or else, it
wants to be.....ClintON allowed Haiti's military rulers to STAY in power for a
mONth, THEse two worthies.....is THE number ONe issue ON THE minds of ;THE
citizens of THE county. THE expressed by..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, October 17, 1994  585 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SUN DON'T SHINE ON THE SAME DOG'S TAIL ALL THE TIME
(you'll get what you deserve)

SAME DOG'S TAIL--18 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

   This sounds like it should be older than 1954.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newport Daily News - 5/10/1954
...the sun doesn't always shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fitted
perfectly, his own.....jump and the 15 and 16-year old boys the SAME events plus
440-yard run and 8pound.....Shanter All-American championship in the SAME year
which constituted his only major..
Newport, Rhode Island   Monday, May 10, 1954  816 k

Indianapolis Star - 1/29/1911
...on his TAIL and pull the New York the dog hollers just the SAME, doesn't
he? But.....case do you know what that force Is. the SAME dog and put him In
Massachusetts. Say.....the operation of your hand to the DOG'S TAIL. He yowls
with pain, you have hurt him.....you had a little dog here. You give his TAIL a
sudden jerk with your hand and that..
Indianapolis, Indiana   Sunday, January 29, 1911  1038 k

Mountain Democrat - 11/14/1986
...why the sun never shines twice on the SAME DOG'S TAIL. Really important
things that I.....well, take two bolts of lightning in the SAME place and call
me in the morning." Yeah..
Placerville, California   Friday, November 14, 1986  535 k

Council Bluffs Nonpareil - 5/11/1954
...when Cass Michaels committed a on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fitthrowing
error with two.....when his car rolled end over end in the SAME accident in
which Robey was hurt. Rolls.....rolled over on the north turn about the SAME time
as the Vickers accident, and the..
Council Bluffs, Iowa   Tuesday, May 11, 1954  691 k

Herald Press - 5/10/1954
...Dodgers swept the ways shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL, three-game series
from fitted.....a: end of B'h. Drlrnil 3-n. 2-0: srconri SAME cnlird Ht end of
riarknr.w' ington fit..
Saint Joseph, Michigan   Monday, May 10, 1954  682 k

Times - 10/21/1825
...in July, could have; recognized him for the SAME dog In December. The
iffed of Miss.....could not belong to him for that Ihe DOG'S TAIL had never been
hurt, and that the spots.....of the bone in any part of this DOG'S TAIL, which
there must have been, if It had.....mMn. Belzoni (which she so much deserves)
SAME certain income, to arise either by..
London, Middlesex   Friday, October 21, 1825  1055 k

Waukesha Daily Freeman - 5/10/1954
...the sun doesn't always shine on the SAME DOG'S TAIL twice" fit ted
perfectly his own..
Waukesha, Wisconsin   Monday, May 10, 1954  1061 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BUSY AS A STUMP-TAILED COW IN FLY TIME
(very busy)

COW IN FLY TIME--11 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits

   Not used much now, but it goes back.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 1/15/1932
...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. (Copyright, Syndicate,
INc.) 1932.....to go back hmnc where he belongs, is to FLY down to Toronto for
more grub and chINks.....OF A THING LIKE THAT HAPPENING JUST AT THE TIME WHEN
YOU TWO WEREWELL, SUCH GOOD.....pianist at the CasINo, spends spare TIME
studyINg pharmacy. His ambition is to be..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, January 15, 1932  976 k

New Smyrna Daily News - 8/29/1913
...who never planted a seed or milked a COW IN FLY TIME to write leaders
about the best way.....we fINd "i will rut it IN the ara all the TIME and shows
th? importance of the paper.....very severe cases IN an INcredibly chert TIME.
Dike's Pile Salve goes right to the.....dis couraged, who cannot get along
short TIME without mother's pies she does not deal..
New Smyrna Beach, Florida Friday, August 29, 1913  407 k

Bucks County Gazette - 7/31/1890
...and as restless as a ohorl-lailed COW IN FLY TIME. Tlir Ducks Couniy
Medical Sodut.....consumption" of the lungs) and if taken IN TIME, and given a fair
trial, it will cure or.....M. W. H. H. FINK, P.M. PENNSYLVANIA R. B. TIME
Errxcr JUNK '21, Leave llrislo] for.....Kyrle lo Dorlestown yesterday. Kyrle some
TIME ago committed an araault and battery..
Bristol, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 31, 1890  841 k

Coshocton Tribune - 1/15/1932
...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. A civilizINg INfluence
has touched.....ho said has been said before, many a TIME. Just the same, it
was good to hear him.....want the duties raised. That was the first TIME bsuIN
ess leaders, as a class, questioned.....goods, unless they are at the same TIME
unneeded goods, are not a sign that..
Coshocton, Ohio Friday, January 15, 1932  826 k

Hornellsville Tribune - 1/19/1877
...around like a bob tailed gentleman COW, IN FLY TIME. Bloody shirt Morton,
who returned.....for the honor conferred, but at the same TIME permit me to
say tlmt 1 urn unwillINg to.....du INg the whole day. VotINg ceaied sonv TIME
anterior to the eludINg of tho boxes, an.....absolutely. TOWN MEETINGS. It will
soon bo TIME for tho annual town meetINgs throughout..
Hornellsville, New York   Friday, January 19, 1877  1227 k

Maryville Daily Forum - 1/19/1946
...FLY IN when she meant a short-tailed COW IN FLY-TIME. Miss Mary Frances
Lasell, teacher.....a lovely seen coat. Grass was startINg to COW, as were all
the little flowers. you.....us all IN and make the second semester a TIME of
real achievement IN our school work.....occurs once IN here is only particular
TIME warped ch.xi'iicicrs of this tyn-. happy..
Maryville, Missouri Saturday, January 19, 1946  778 k

Atlanta Constitution - 12/20/1915
...a rural illustration, a shorttailed COW IN FLY TIME, or, a more classic
illustration, as.....INches IN and weighs ISO pounds. At the TIME of his
disappearance he wore a blue.....residential districts, and, at the same TIME,
greatly relieve congestion of traffic.....a total eclipse of the sun and at that
TIME made the first measurement of the..
Atlanta, Georgia Monday, December 20, 1915  501 k

Globe - 3/19/1878
...store, is us busy as a bob-tail COW IN FLY TIME. Harwi has a stock better
under such.....i Katie Putnam on the 20th. The Branch on TIME to-day. C. C.
Burnes is at home agaIN.....Tommy Malone, while workINg with orderly TIME.
AccordINg to a gentleman of nice.....poINt; T of enterpiise. We wish everv man IN
IN the language of everv man we have 0..
Atchison, Kansas Tuesday, March 19, 1878  314 k

Idaho Daily Statesman - 9/21/1900
...president than a stiimp tailed COW IN FLY TIME lias oftakINg it easy. I
voted for.....not vote for Mr. Bryan (agaIN." By this TIME Mr. Croker was
seated, IN .a vls-a-vls.....another 2-yenr-old. who race for the first TIME durINg
the comINg fair, and Joe K, a 2.....gentleman, -waJitlng paJtientlyjJfor some
TIME, but my vis-a-viS gave ho dence of..
Boise, Idaho Friday, September 21, 1900  649 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 2/2/1934
...milkINg, dodge the sole weapon of a COW IN FLY TIME, has n traININg that
stands IN good.....their education. ConsiderINg how much TIME we all waste IN
various forms of.....glycINe, an amINo-acid, and at the same TIME givINg ephedr
INe and a high proteIN diet.....your cloth w; it's already past milkINg TIME."
Gypsy listened, agreed, nodded. She..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Friday, February 02, 1934  881 k

Chronicle Telegram - 10/29/1973
...NOT EVACTLV AS 5U5Y AS A SHORTTAILED COW IN FLY TIME I'LL WAIT. YOURSELF
BUT DO .'T OUT.....Ohio, until 12: 00 noon. Eastern Standard TIME. November 16.
1973. At that TIME, bids.....and Dik Browne AND REMEMBER THE TO OUR HARD TIME
WE HAD CUBM ASTER TEACHING HIM TO AND-A.....AMD "TINY TOM" TIMES OM A COOL I
FOXE -WHAT TIME DiFFSRc.M'i UELCOMS iEUERALLY AT THE V..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, October 29, 1973  637 k

Perry Chief - 4/1/1887
...such poet could ever have milked a COW IN FLY TIME. (Laughter.) I cannot
imagINe a.....Laughter.) What so meek and us a niooley COW? City people are
foolish to be frightened.....me of a Commissioner ol Agriculture IN old TIME-"
who pur chased six hyd-aulic rams lor.....at COWs. I was never hurt by a COW but
once. He shook hia head at mo from..
Perry, Iowa Friday, April 01, 1887  663 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 1/15/1932
...as happy as a two-tailed Missouri COW IN FLY TIME. Mr. and Mrs. James
Pollard who A.....Evelyn Tallman; Messrs. Noah banquets the TIME's Mr. Wiley
attends IN a year. The.....met Tuesday evenINg when a very INterestINg TIME was
enjoyed followINg The Philathea.....as the Spanish, described them at the, -TIME,
men of The French; called them brigands..
Reno, Nevada Friday, January 15, 1932  911 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 09:52:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:52:52 EST
Subject: Socks on a Rooster (1959)
Message-ID: 

SOCKS ON A ROOSTER--200 Google hits, 156 Google Groups hits

   Not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.
   HDAS?


(GOOGLE)
http://www.southernsass.com/HillbillyDictionary.html
"Sexy as socks on a rooster." (not sexy at all)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: bray shino glaze recipe
... whether the body is reduced, what its composition is.....there are enough
factors
involved to keep you as busy as you'd be trying to put socks on a rooster.
...
bit.listserv.clayart - Jan 2, 1996 by TROY at JUNCOL.JUNIATA.EDU - View Thread
(4 articles)

Re: Margarita Question
... Throw them in a blender to just cover crushed ice and you'll have one
"socks on a rooster" margaritta your freinds will remember you for. ...
rec.food.drink - May 7, 1994 by Wayne Calvagno - View Thread (9 articles

Flash! 16 not power of 2!
... used octal on their 16-bit processors. This is like putting socks
on a rooster. Octal is incredibly inconvenient when trying to ...
comp.arch - Aug 4, 1989 by David Wright @stellar - View Thread (3 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Oswego Palladium Times - 8/11/1959
...of New OrleAns, would AppeAr ON him like "SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." (AP
Wirephoto.....HIGHLIGHTS Council AgAin Defers ActiON ON City Employes InsurAnce, PAne
8. OSTC To.....CONfer Degrees ON Aug. 22, PAge 4. T CleAr tONight. FAir And..
Oswego, New York   Tuesday, August 11, 1959  831 k
Pg. 1, col. 1 AP photo caption:
_ALL-OUT CAMPAIGNING_--Louisiana Gov. Earl Long tugs at suspender-hung
trousers as he blasts opponents in his campaign for re-election during Des
Allemands, La. stop on his stump trip.  Long observed that a suit of clothes of
opponent deLesseps Morrison, the well-dressed mayor of New Orleans, would appear on
him like "socks on a rooster."

Frederick Post - 9/10/1985
...A suit ON Uncle EArl would look like SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." cousin And then
CONgressmAn.....Albeit for ONly A frActiON of A secONd. But ON the wAy bAck, I
spilled coffee ON A mAn in.....up A shingle: "CAnAdA open for business." ON
the militAry side, MulrONey tost no time..
Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, September 10, 1985  580 k

News - 11/15/1980
...thAt with sweet DAisy is 'bout like to put SOCKS ON A ROOSTER. A pregnAnt
epigrAm, thAt.....did in school. verbAl diAlogue thAt goes ON in mAny of those
commONly wAtched progrAms.....groups Also vowed to push for higher tAxes ON
oil compAnies in the upcoming sessiON of..
Frederick, Maryland Saturday, November 15, 1980  375 k

Salisbury Times - 8/11/1959
...of New OrleAns, would AppeAr ON him like "SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." (AP
Wirephoto) He.....re-electiON during Des AllemAnds, LA., stop ON his stump trip. LONg
observed thAt A suit.....And swift defeAt, hAd his sights set ON A downtown
New OrleAns rAlly tONight home..
Salisbury, Maryland Tuesday, August 11, 1959  667 k

Gettysburg Times - 11/13/1980
...sweet DAisy is 'bout like tryin" to put SOCKS ON A ROOSTER." A pregnAnt
epigrAm, thAt.....pArticipAted in the fAmed Doolitlie RAid ON Tokyo And went ON
to become Gen. DouglAs.....iA school. -The verbAl diAlogue thAt goes ON in mA
ny of those commONly wAtched rAms is..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Thursday, November 13, 1980  472 k


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Sat Mar 13 12:03:48 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:03:48 -0500
Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868)
Message-ID: 

>DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits
>DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76  Google Groups hits
>
>   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a
>boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is sorely
lacking a >happy dead pig.
>   Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad.

This one reminds me of a saying of my late grandfather (b. KY 1895, d. KY
1981): "I haven't been so happy since the pigs ate my little brother."

Orin Hargraves


From RSydow at COX.NET  Sat Mar 13 12:31:33 2004
From: RSydow at COX.NET (Bob & Judy Sydow)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:31:33 -0500
Subject: sign off
Message-ID: 

sign off ads-l


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 15:14:09 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:14:09 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20=C2=A0=20Re:=20=E2=80=A0=20?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A0=20=E2=80=A0=20'mo=20=3D=20homo?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/12/04 6:27:31 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes:


> Which reminds me - I still want to know how 'za is pronounced.
>

Rhymes with "ma" and "pa" and "la-la-la-la-la" (not "duh")--at least, that is
how I've always heard it.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 15:18:30 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:18:30 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Big=20Dogs/Porch=20(1986)?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/13/04 4:20:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH
> 
> BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits
> 
> ?? Popularized by a bumper sticker.
> 

I think it is a trademarked phrase?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 15:40:59 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:40:59 EST
Subject: Charles Carson's surgery
Message-ID: 

Many of you have had the pleasure of working with Charles Carson, the
managing editor of American Dialect Society Publications, for the past many years.
I'm writing to report that Charles will be out of commission for at least a week
or so as the result of complications of gall-bladder surgery. Those of you
who have been following John Ashcroft's surgery in the newspapers know that this
is usually a relatively simple procedure, one in which someone in his 30s
would normally go home from the hospital the next day. Charles's surgery did not
go as planned, and while he seems to be well on his way to recovery, he is
still in the hospital and will (assuming that all goes well and the danger of
infection passes) be recovering at home next week.

I doubt that he will be reading any e-mail until next week, but well-wishes
may send him messages that he will I'm sure be heartened to see when he opens
his Duke message box at:

.

Cards will reach him at his home address:

710 East Hammond Street
Durham, NC 27704.

I don't know if his mother has come up to North Carolina from Florida for the
surgery (I'm in Florida and haven't been able to visit him in the hospital),
but he is receiving excellent support from his multitude of North Carolina
friends, and especially his loving and devoted partner Zac, who is keeping those
of us who are on Charles's e-mail list of just how Charlie is doing.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar 13 19:21:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:21:23 -0800
Subject: doesn't/don't
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1078847100@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 9, 2004, at 7:45 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote, about 3 sg. "don't":

> ...DARE has it as 'esp among speakers with little formal educ'--but
> apparently
> not any particular region.

as i recall, it crops up in many parts of the english-speaking world.

in some places and at some times it's been associated with the *upper*
class.  in late-19th and early-20th century england, for instance.  it
was a conspicuous feature of lord peter wimsey's very U variety.

> To my knowledge, such people don't say 'It do', but person agreement is
> similarly lost in some dialects'/registers' negation of 'be'--i.e.,
> _ain't_.

there are varities with completely leveling in favor of do/don't.  but
the most common system has levelling only in the negative -- pretty
much a textbook example of leveling only in the more marked category.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Mar 13 20:13:14 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:13:14 -0600
Subject: "the cutting edge"--Question
Message-ID: 

     One of my students has asked me about the expression "the cutting
edge" (e.g., of research in a field).  Does this very generally refer
to any sharp object as it cuts its way through something? Or does it
refer to a specific sharp object in a specific context (e.g. a  drill
cutting through rock in the construction of a tunnel)?

    Any thoughts?

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Mar 13 20:15:28 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:15:28 -0600
Subject: "chopped liver" revisited
Message-ID: 

    A few weeks ago I mentioned the great injustice in the expression
(with variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" and wondered how this
delicious food (if prepared properly) could acquire such negative
connotations.

    I now see a plausible answer in a 2002 ads-l message and present
it below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen


>Date:         Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:43 -0700
>From: Kim & Rima McKinzey 
>Subject:      Fwd: mini Yiddish lesson
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>Just got this from a friend - and appropriate in that we just had a
>thread re chopped liver.  Rima
>
>>
>>While we're on the subject of Yiddish, another expression whose origin
>>people wonder about is, "What am I, chopped liver?"
>>
>>Consult an excellent website about all things Jewish, Ask the Rabbi
>>(www.ohr.org.il/web/index/askfull.htm).
>>
>>According to this site, the phrase was coined in America. Chopped liver is
>>a side dish and never a main course, so the phrase is used to express hurt
>>and amazement when someone feels overlooked, i.e., treated as a "side
>>dish."


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Sat Mar 13 21:35:26 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:35:26 -0500
Subject: "whole nine yards"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Did the US need all nine [Montagnard groups in I Corps area] to be effective?
Do we need to answer that hypothetical?

If one suggests "all nine" must have been used and must be recorded and must be
available before "whole nine," in parallel to "the whole shebang," then:

Does anyone recall "the all shebang"? "All shebang" came before "whole shebang"?

Exactly which machine gun belts were 27 feet?

best,
Stephen Goranson


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 13 21:42:23 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:42:23 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Dear Colleagues,

I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd.  I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program.  If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible.  MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month.  Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1.

Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list.

Thanks so much!

Michael


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Mar 13 23:29:00 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:29:00 -0500
Subject: "chopped liver" revisited
Message-ID: 

Jerry,

I still see that as one of two plausible answers. It could still be the idea
that chopped liver was cheaper than pastrami or corned beef or lox in the
deli.  This was Doug Wilson's idea, and I tend to accept that theory.

I don't know if it was Doug who pointed out that the phrase quite often was
used to indicate that a sum of money wasn't "chopped liver."  That would
negate the "side dish" issue.

Sam Clements

Considering that
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: "chopped liver" revisited


>     A few weeks ago I mentioned the great injustice in the expression
> (with variants) "What am I, chopped liver?" and wondered how this
> delicious food (if prepared properly) could acquire such negative
> connotations.
>
>     I now see a plausible answer in a 2002 ads-l message and present
> it below my signoff.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>
> >Date:         Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:43 -0700
> >From: Kim & Rima McKinzey 
> >Subject:      Fwd: mini Yiddish lesson
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> >Just got this from a friend - and appropriate in that we just had a
> >thread re chopped liver.  Rima
> >
> >>
> >>While we're on the subject of Yiddish, another expression whose origin
> >>people wonder about is, "What am I, chopped liver?"
> >>
> >>Consult an excellent website about all things Jewish, Ask the Rabbi
> >>(www.ohr.org.il/web/index/askfull.htm).
> >>
> >>According to this site, the phrase was coined in America. Chopped liver
is
> >>a side dish and never a main course, so the phrase is used to express
hurt
> >>and amazement when someone feels overlooked, i.e., treated as a "side
> >>dish."
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 14 01:10:14 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:10:14 EST
Subject: Big Dogs/Porch (1986) (trademarks)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/13/2004 10:19:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
RonButters at AOL.COM writes:


>
> In a message dated 3/13/04 4:20:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:
>
>
> > IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH
> >
> > BIG DOGS + STAY ON THE PORCH--888 Google hits, 3,950 Google Groups hits
> >
> >    Popularized by a bumper sticker.
> >
>
> I think it is a trademarked phrase?
>

   I forgot the trademarks!  There are three with this exact phrase and four
others with something similar (sans "porch").  However, I'd found one Google
Groups cite in 1986, and the earliest here is 1989:


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH
Goods and Services  IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, sweatshirts,
nightshirts, and children's T-shirts. FIRST USE: 19890100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE:
19890100
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74713177
Filing Date August 9, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    January 7, 1997
Registration Number 2048686
Registration Date   April 1, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray
Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark     IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH
Goods and Services  IC 021. US 002 013 023 029 030 033 040 050. G & S:
plastic bottles, sold empty for fluids. FIRST USE: 19920800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE:
19920800
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74713193
Filing Date August 9, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    January 7, 1997
Registration Number 2048687
Registration Date   April 1, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray
Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  Anthony J. Wall
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark     IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS STAY ON THE PORCH
Goods and Services  IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: sticky
note pads. FIRST USE: 19950400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950400
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74713195
Filing Date August 9, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    January 7, 1997
Registration Number 2048688
Registration Date   April 1, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Big Dog Holdings, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 121 Gray
Avenue Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  Anthony J. Wall
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark  RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS
Goods and Services  IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, jackets, woven
shirts, sweatshirts, caps, infant rompers, girl's dresses and children's
sweatshirts. FIRST USE: 19930700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930700
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74625790
Filing Date January 26, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    November 14, 1995
Change In Registration  CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration
Number   1986729
Registration Date   July 16, 1996
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue
Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC.
CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  KURT KOENIG
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark     RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS
Goods and Services  IC 031. US 001 046. G & S: pet food. FIRST USE: 19980900.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19980900
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74625783
Filing Date January 26, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition    September 26, 1995
Registration Number 2236932
Registration Date   April 6, 1999
Owner   (REGISTRANT) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 GRAY
AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  ANTHONY J. WALL
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark     RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS
Goods and Services  IC 021. US 002 013 023 029 030 033 040 050. G & S:
plastic sports bottles. FIRST USE: 19940400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19940400
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74634306
Filing Date February 10, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    October 17, 1995
Change In Registration  CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration
Number   1980729
Registration Date   June 18, 1996
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue
Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC.
CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  KURT KOENIG
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark   RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS
Goods and Services  IC 018. US 001 002 003 022 041. G & S: pet collars and
pet leashes. FIRST USE: 19950200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950200
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74634303
Filing Date February 10, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    September 19, 1995
Change In Registration  CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED Registration
Number   1980728
Registration Date   June 18, 1996
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Fortune Dogs Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 121 Gray Avenue
Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93101(LAST LISTED OWNER) BIG DOG HOLDINGS, INC.
CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 121 GRAY AVENUE SANTA BARBARA CALIFORNIA 93101
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  KURT KOENIG
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From MartinezE at COFC.EDU  Sun Mar 14 02:08:29 2004
From: MartinezE at COFC.EDU (Martinez-Gibson, Elizabeth A.)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:08:29 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Michael,
 
I am working on a project that deals with the acquisiton of ser and estar. The test I gave the students tests to see if students understand certain concepts in English.Is this something you might be interested in for the ADS session? If so, I can get you an abstract by Wednesday the latest.
 
Elizabeth Martinez-Gibson
College of Charleston
Dept. of Hispanic Studies-JC Long 310
9 Libery St.
Charleston, SC 29424
martineze at cofc.edu
 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Michael Adams 
Sent: Sat 3/13/2004 4:42 PM 
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
Cc: 
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004



	Dear Colleagues,
	
	I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd.  I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program.  If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible.  MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month.  Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1.
	
	Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list.
	
	Thanks so much!
	
	Michael
	


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar 14 05:33:49 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:33:49 -0500
Subject: Happy as a dead pig in the sunshine (1868)
In-Reply-To: <1cc.1bd76e54.2d841464@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Looks as though it might be a "parole blend" as Jerry would call it;
the main concept seems to be "happy as a pig in the sunshine" with
variants, and then there's "tranquil as a dead pig in the sunshine",
which makes sense, possibly resulting in the 1868 hit (I'm assuming
it was in fact 1868) as a blend of the two; cf. "happy as a clam at
high tide" > "happy as a clam", which makes as little sense the happy
dead pig.  Well, maybe a bit more sense than that, but still...

larry horn

At 2:38 AM -0500 3/13/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:


>DEAD PIG IN SUNSHINE--17 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits
>DEAD PIG IN THE SUNSHINE--240 Google hits, 76  Google Groups hits
>
>    The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "happy as a clam" and "happy as a
>boxing kangaroo in fog time" and "happy as pigs in shit," but is
>sorely lacking a
>happy dead pig.
>    Beats me how a dead pig can be either happy or sad.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Reno Evening Gazette - 12/22/1960
>...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe, but when
>he gets.....skiers were gettINg a double shot of sunshINe from THE sky and
>reflected from THE.....THE 'left wINg' IN THE British Labor party. THE NATO
>foreign mINisters met IN Paris THE.....moan THEre won 'THE plenty of
>polar feaTHEr
>IN THE months ahead. TakINg IN a Lot of..
>Reno, Nevada Thursday, December 22, 1960  606 k
>
>Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 12/27/1960
>...him and make him as happy as one of his own PIGS IN THE sunshINe. but_ he
>gets through.....year IN Western Europe, Western .Europeans, IN 1958, spent
>only 86 million IN THE United.....fINds himself IN THE same position. When THE
>appoINtment ,was announced, he told THE.....than three million dollars. IN
>addition, IN takINg THE job he also accepted a cut IN..
>Oshkosh, Wisconsin Tuesday, December 27, 1960  923 k
>
>Helena Independent - 4/16/1934
>...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk
>about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical
>society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from
>THE glare of
>THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN
>Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr..
>Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934  520 k
>
>Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950
>...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
>sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe
>IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE
>selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE
>Union club IN THE
>junior division of THE county style..
>Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950  938 k
>
>Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957
>...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm
>my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon
>Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big
>side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a
>staff of n
>INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight..
>Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957  659 k
>
>Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966
>...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller,
>whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm
>boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his
>boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked
>around THE
>country IN contract shops and railroad..
>Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966  619 k
>
>Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950
>...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
>sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE
>exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE
>coronation of THE
>queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as
>THE 4-H club
>parade. THE 4-H club banquet..
>Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950  730 k
>
>Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
>...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
>worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum
>cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN
>THE region IN
>THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
>THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg..
>Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  741 k
>
>Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950
>...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
>worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE
>parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr
>THE back of THE
>head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
>hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE..
>Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950  507 k
>
>Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942
>...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look,
>we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you
>avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE
>program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need
>seasonal workers
>IN July, IN August and 000 IN October..
>Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942  698 k
>
>Morning News Review - 3/30/1924
>...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three
>hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool
>of THE late
>aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE
>iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr
>early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE..
>Florence, South Carolina   Sunday, March 30, 1924  578 k
>
>Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
>...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been
>worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum
>cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn
>IN THE grammar
>room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been
>IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election..
>Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  763 k
>
>Helena Independent - 4/16/1934
>...Rhynes said: Happy as happy as a little PIG IN THE sunshINe, and THEy talk
>about me.....IN THE March issue of THE Journal of THE American Chemical
>society. THE material.....THE touch of THE hell. Marcla stepped from
>THE glare of
>THE sunlight and began to mount.....blood. THE faTHEr escaped from slavery IN
>Kentucky to freedom IN Canada. THE moTHEr..
>Helena, Montana Monday, April 16, 1934  520 k
>
>Ames Daily Tribune - 8/1/1950
>...MILK FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
>sow.....state, THEy cut some on spendINg but not IN proportion to THE declINe
>IN THEir current.....Thirty-live Around THE County With THE 4-H 'ers THE
>selection of THE Demonstra.....Delores Thorson to represent THE
>Union club IN THE
>junior division of THE county style..
>Ames, Iowa Tuesday, August 01, 1950  938 k
>
>Coshocton Tribune - 6/15/1957
>...THEy say. IN Dixie, as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. However warm
>my sentiments.....made her one of THE top female vocalists IN THE country. Jon
>Cypher will be seen IN.....Moon." IN our estimation, "Peek" will be THE big
>side IN THE very near future. We're.....IN an office buildINg with a
>staff of n
>INe. THE enrolled IN THE course pay apiece. Eight..
>Coshocton, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1957  659 k
>
>Indiana Evening Gazette - 8/20/1966
>...speech with such savINgs as "happy as a. PIG IN THE sunshINe." Siemiller,
>whose union.....longest lordamost costly airlINes strike IN history, THE farm
>boy-turned-president of.....made THE bravest Pony Express rider quake IN his
>boots: Congress, THE Johnson.....hitch hi THE Navy, and later worked
>around THE
>country IN contract shops and railroad..
>Indiana, Pennsylvania Saturday, August 20, 1966  619 k
>
>Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/28/1950
>...FROM CONTENTED Happy as a mama PIG IN THE sunshINe is this contented
>sow.....THE most outstandINg entertaINment program IN THE history of THE
>exposition. Harold.....PenINsula fair queen will be selected. THE
>coronation of THE
>queen will be held IN.....will be held IN THE afternoon, as well as
>THE 4-H club
>parade. THE 4-H club banquet..
>Ironwood, Michigan Friday, July 28, 1950  730 k
>
>Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
>...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
>worth.....balefully. developed a hatred for THE PIG bank and THE vacuum
>cleaner. He took to.....THE possibilities of radio communication IN
>THE region IN
>THE event of any breakdown.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
>THE fireplug. And he bit THE swimmINg..
>Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  741 k
>
>Berkshire Evening Eagle - 9/5/1950
>...puppy he has been aj tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Life has been
>worth.....THE Taft-Hartley Act. Bennelt led easily IN THE votINg ill THE
>parly's nomINatINg.....for THE new millINery that will be turINfr
>THE back of THE
>head. THE velvet-like ness.....thINgs you blow up for THE kids to play IN. He
>hated THE fireplug. And he bit THE..
>Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, September 05, 1950  507 k
>
>Nevada State Journal - 6/29/1942
>...IN THE navy just as happy as a fat PIG IN THE sunshINe. THEy said, "Look,
>we got to.....Only by THE grace of God and a wealth of sunshINe have you
>avoided a serious epidemic.....handled and THE areas IN which THEy work. THE
>program will provide for THE return of.....that THE state will need
>seasonal workers
>IN July, IN August and 000 IN October..
>Reno, Nevada Monday, June 29, 1942  698 k
>
>Morning News Review - 3/30/1924
>...vile stories or sleepINg like a lazy PIG IN THE sunshINe. rpHAT Three
>hundred and.....later at THE sacred concert. A nice ride IN THE cool
>of THE late
>aft ernoon, supper and.....on Ml heiorc THE house THE Midilen chance IN THE
>iventl. M'ilt nffrtrd tklnr ler THE of.....of men, women and children gaTHEr
>early IN THE Sunday schools of THE city, THEn THE..
>Florence, South Carolina   Sunday, March 30, 1924  578 k
>
>Portland Press Herald - 9/6/1950
>...puppy he has been as tranquil as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. has been
>worth livINg.....balefully. He developed a hatred for PIG bank and THE vacuum
>cleaner. He took to.....THE same teachers IN charge, Harry Sanborn
>IN THE grammar
>room; Mrs. KaTHErINe Clemons.....opponent IN THEiand children, who have been
>IN THE village for THE v_ Bept. 11 election..
>Portland, Maine Wednesday, September 06, 1950  763 k
>
>Petersburg Index - 7/10/1868
>...pleased before, uri; now as happy as a dead PIG IN THE sunshINe. Our
>foHulli passed off.....and ESTABLISHMENT oifeft unrivalled for THE
>execution IN THE
>most tasteful style THE.....THE Supreme Court of THE United States THE us lo
>THE constiLutionalily of THE.....I a Jani of and THE only saw THE traIN IN
>motion; but learn '.hut la THE box cars U..
>Petersburg, Virginia Friday, July 10, 1868  789 k
>Pg. 1, col. 3:
>    Even the old complainers, that were never known to be pleased before, are
>now as happy as a dead pig in the sunshine.
>
>Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878
>...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small
>hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a
>lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN
>broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of
>Chattahoochee
>told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of..
>Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878  952 k
>
>Daily Constitution - 2/15/1878
>...THE hen as contentedly and happy a PIG IN THE sunshINe ClosINg THE small
>hole made for.....THE very liberal share of public IN THE mad IN view of INg a
>lore lumber of friends IN.....thINg IN THE This little with a worthless IN
>broad day light IN THE presence of a coe.....fire THE and so did of
>Chattahoochee
>told THE editor of THE bus Times THE oTHEr day of..
>Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 15, 1878  952 k


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sun Mar 14 08:46:46 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:46:46 -0500
Subject: "whole nine yards"
Message-ID: 

Funny you should ask that. I had just been wondering whether there were only 9 montagnard tribes in I Corps.  A listing of montagnard and other ethnic minorities (http://www.wompom.ca/vietnam/vnethnic24.htm) assigns only 7 tribes to the provinces that made up I CTZ.   However, I'm not sure how complete the list is; for instance, it has no entries for the Rhade and Jarai, major groups of II CTZ.  I will send you this information separately.

The short answer to whether the US needed all tribes is that all nine tribes do not seem to have been involved in the CIDG (Civilian Irregular Defense Group) program run by the US Special Forces.  

In Oct 1964, there were 6 A camps in I CTZ.  Five of them had Vietnamese camp strike forces; one of these also had Bru strikers and a second also had Ta-Oi strikers.  One camp's CSF was entirely Hre--that was Gia Vuc, which was on the border between I CTZ and II CTZ.   (See Table 2, Vietnam Studies: U.S. Army Special Forces, 1961-1971 Vietnam Studies: U.S. Army Special Forces, 1961-1971, CMH Publication 90-23. Department of the Army. Washington, D.C. 1989 (First Printed, 1973) (http://tinyurl.com/yr9x5)).  In addition, the Mobile Strike (Mike) Force in Danang had Rhade and Koho strikers, but they were recruited from II CTZ . 

Se?n Fitzpatrick
Baghdad Lutetiaque delendi sunt
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stephen Goranson 
Sent: Saturday, 13 March, 2004 16:35
Subject: Re: "whole nine yards"


Did the US need all nine [Montagnard groups in I Corps area] to be effective?
Do we need to answer that hypothetical?

If one suggests "all nine" must have been used and must be recorded and must be
available before "whole nine," in parallel to "the whole shebang," then:

Does anyone recall "the all shebang"? "All shebang" came before "whole shebang"?

Exactly which machine gun belts were 27 feet?

best,
Stephen Goranson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 14 20:03:43 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:03:43 EST
Subject: doesn't/don't: first-hand experience
Message-ID: 

My first really memorable introduction to practical linguistics came when I
was 18 years old and went off to the University of Iowa as a freshman. I had
been an honors student in high school English in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I
participated in high-school speech contests (mostly in extemporaneous speaking). No
one ever called me on any aspect of my grammar.

I was not conscious that "He don't" (and, in general, the use of "don't" with
singual subjects) was a part of my speech until college friends--graduate
students--pointed it out to me. I have no idea whether or not I had unconsciously
shifted to "He doesn't" in speech contests, but I doubt it. Perhaps the
construction never came up in those formal situations. It does seem impossible that
I could have gone through high-school and never written "he don't" unless I
unconsciously style-shifted to "doesn't" in writing.

I would NEVER have written or said "He do" or "It do" or "John do," however.

A similar experience fifteen years later: a friend pointed out to me that, in
speech, I regularly did not use a linking /n/ between the indefinite article
"a" and a word beginning with a vowel. I tended to use a glottal stop instead:
"a?apple"rather than "an apple," etc. She found this very amusing, especially
because I was by that time a tenured member of the Duke English Department,
specialing in English linguistics. Ever since then, my tongue invariably flaps
against my alveolar ridge betweeen the word "a" and a word beginning with a
vowel.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 14 21:16:09 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:16:09 EST
Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport
Message-ID: 

I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield Airport.

This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern
Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta".  A quickie Google search turned up this
proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta
Hartsfield, but with varying airlines.

I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning
from Florida from the Skylab launch.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The phrase "zigged when I should have zagged" sounds like it comes from World
War II (or even World War I) when ships sailed on zig-zag courses to avoid
submarines.

         - Jim Landau


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Mar 14 22:17:08 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:17:08 -0500
Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport
In-Reply-To: <9b.453495ed.2d862599@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

James A. Landau wrote:
>I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield Airport.
>
>This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern
>Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta".  A quickie Google
>search turned up this
>proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta
>Hartsfield, but with varying airlines.
>
>I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning
>from Florida from the Skylab launch.
>

By the time I moved to Gainesville in 1980, no airline was specified
(though Eastern and Air Florida were the only airlines serving
Gainesville); it was "if you die in the southeastern US, it doesn't
matter whether you're going to Heaven or Hell; you'll change in
Atlanta". I'm not sure if it's at all relevant, but Hartsfield opened
in 1980 (sometime between my job interview in April and the first
conference I attended while at UF, probably the LSA in December).

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 14 22:25:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:25:09 EST
Subject: E.V.O.O. or EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) (1916)
Message-ID: 

EVOO--3,400 Google hits, 1,310 Google Groups hits
EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL--345,000 Google hits, 14,200 Google Groups hits
  
   Awright, did my taxes.  Me and the wife Jennifer Lopez thought Ben Affleck 
looked bloated on Saturday Night Live....Time to talk about extra virgins.
   I saw this on a menu as EVOO and was a little confused.  Some give it as 
E.V.O.O.  It looks bad--like some blend of "evil" + "voodoo."  Do you serve 
EVOO with TIVO?
   OED added "extra virgin olive oil" as recently as December 2002. "EVOO" is 
not listed.  There is a citation in 1981.  Newspaperarchive has something 
from 1916.
    
  
(OED)(added December 2002)
B. n. Extra-virgin olive oil. 
   1981 Bon App?tit May 130/2 One of the best is Olivar, an extra virgin. 
1994 Toronto Life June 81/1 Surrounded by tarragon-spangled cherry tomatoes and 
asparagus over extra-virgin with lemon. 2000 A. BOURDAIN Kitchen Confid. (2001) 
194, I pour extra virgin into a pan and saut? some paper-thin garlic slices 
with some crushed red pepper.

  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)("EVOO")
Re: Using Balsamic Vinegar
... I make a BV salad dressing that gets raves: 1/3 cup each BV, EXTRA Virgin 
Olive
Oil, water (or another 1/3 c EVOO) 1-2 cloves minced garlic 1/2 teas. ... 
rec.food.cooking - Apr 2, 1993 by Cyndi Smith - 

Dear Elizabeth,

Absolutely!  Please send the abstract along as soon as you can, and thanks for your response.

With all best wishes,

Michael


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 15 00:25:31 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:25:31 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Deviance"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

deviance (OED 1944)

1937 Anthony O'Hear _An Introduction to the Philosophy of Science_ 64  We
have just considered the case of the deviance of Uranus.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 15 00:33:47 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:33:47 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Racism"
In-Reply-To: <200403020319.i223JpA04386@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

racism (OED 1936)

1928 Herbert W. Schneider _Making the Fascist State_ 166  The intimate
alliance between national syndicalism and racism became evident.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Mar 15 01:10:38 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:10:38 -0500
Subject: Antedating of 'press conference'
Message-ID: 

M-W and OED both use 1937( A Time mag. cite).

The first cite I can find is 30 May, 1870 _NY Times_ page 1/col. 2?(Proquest)
(I can't devine just what this use of the term means)

<>

That's the oldest I can find.

The next is 5 May, 1893  _Oshkosh(WI) Daily Northwestern 3/2
(from an article about the World's Fair in Chicago)
<>
Not a political use of the term.

The first cite I can find for a "political" press conference is from the NYTimes,  9 June, 1909  page 4(Proquest)
<>

The first US cite I can find for a political "press conference" is from 8 October, 1918 _City Daily Citizen_ Iowa City(IA) 1/2

<At 4 o'clock a press conference was arranged after President Wildon had consulted with Colonel House, ....>>

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Mar 15 01:15:27 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:15:27 -0500
Subject: President 'Wildon' = Wilson
Message-ID: 

My bad.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 01:29:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:29:00 -0500
Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962)
Message-ID: 

COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits

   My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol Burnett and Woody Allen.  Both of them used it (see below), but neither coined it.
   Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly agree with this one.  September 11th won't ever be funny.  The holocaust is not funny.  I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple" published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny.
   Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976
...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy. His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and..
Reno, Nevada   Sunday, May 02, 1976  628 k

Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000
...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing..
Elyria, Ohio   Tuesday, February 15, 2000  596 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962
...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a..
Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, December 05, 1962  1070 k
(Same as the following--ed.)

Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962
...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M. PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of..
Salisbury, Maryland   Friday, November 23, 1962  662 k
Pg. 23, col. 3:
   "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time.  After getting the bills, I believe it."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1943. p. 4 (1 page)
(I didn't see it--ed.)

Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping:
Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page):
   PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett:  "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus time.  When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh."

   Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .'
By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page):
   "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time."  Like something horrible that happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward.

   THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh.
JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1, 2001. p. C15 (1 page):
   "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors."


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Mar 15 01:32:22 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:32:22 -0600
Subject: Origin of John Kerry's last name
Message-ID: 

This is to ans-l and ads-l:
    A recent issue of the German magazine Spiegel (1 March 2004, p.
109) tells how John Kerry's grandfather came to have the last name
Kerry. The story probably appears in John Kerry's autobiography:

(translation): "In contrast [to the blueblood origin of the mother's
side of the family], the Kerrys have a prosaic family tree. The
grandfather of the little JFK [i.e, John Forbes Kerry, vs. President
JFK] was actually named Fritz Kohn and was a Jew from Bohemia.
Before his emigration in 1904, he looked over a map, selected a new
name based on the Irish county Kerry and converted to Catholicism."

Gerald Cohen
P.S. I suppose that grandfather Kohn was influenced in his choice of
Kerry (county) by the presence of initial K in both names.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 02:36:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:36:55 -0500
Subject: Life is just one... (1909); Dirty Shirt; Extra Virgin
Message-ID: 

LIFE IS JUST ONE DAMNED THING AFTER ANOTHER

   Another citation.  See ADS-L archives.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Charleroi Mail - 10/25/1909
...surprISe some people to learn that LIFE IS JUST ONE durn thing after another. We.....lose much of the higher enjoyments of LIFE. The Citizens' Entertainment course IS.....it forms at table which IS eaten JUST like candy. They may be taken at any.....little for pleasure as it used to, and some ONE IS cut off each month4y pay. It IS the..
Charleroi, Pennsylvania   Monday, October 25, 1909  827 k

Mansfield News - 11/18/1909
...It was u sort of reminder that LIFE IS JUST ONE darned s; after anclher. wasn't.....Old Reliable." Tbe ONE of your puppies has JUST lost hIS tall. The gerve.s him right. I.....to be practical in (he leading of a LIFE to benefit e world became the founder of.....v.ail never raniMl and had so care. than LIFE toot twcs the drean-ji to there w I'm ot..
Mansfield, Ohio   Thursday, November 18, 1909  753 k

Washington Post - 11/12/1909
...good cigars smoke HAVANA Ijidfc i i LIFE IS JUST ONE thing after an other the last thing.....of the chil dren What shall you give them? JUST what your mother gave you, and JUST wbat.....CIEBK POUND DEAD. The Southeastern Mutual LIFE and AcBecause of a Woman. Because It.....to the ordeal A A makes its anticipation ONE of dread. Friend IS the only remedy which..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Friday, November 12, 1909  676 k

Adams County News - 10/29/1910
...last act Uncle Dave declaies that "LIFE IS JUST ONE darn thing after another. Mr.....they have carried ONE ton, there being JUST two hundred and twenty-four gallons in a.....the day following. And although the fall IS JUST getting a good start the farmers are.....half a day, and Margaret Royer mISsed ONE day. Following IS the report of Union..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Saturday, October 29, 1910  725 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
DIRTY SHIRT

   More dirty shirts.

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
PRINCE BISMARCK'S LETTERS.
GEORGE M TOWLE. The Literary World; a Monthly Review of Current Literature (1870-1904). Boston: Jan 4, 1879. Vol. 10, Iss. 1; p. 3 (1 page) :
   Writing to his wife as to the contrast of his former with his present life:

   "I do not know how I bore it formerly; if I had to live now as I did then--without God, without yourself, without the children--I really do not know why I should not throw off this life like a dirty shirt."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times)
1. Display Ad 24 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 13, 1926. p. 19 (1 page):
   But, on the square, I'm off oil like a dirty shirt, and I wish to goodness the people that submit me a thousand oil propositions a week, would just forget that I ever saw an oil well, because I'm not interested...

   2. Civil Strife Rocks Caliente's Official Family Over Week-end Meetings; "NEW DEAL" STARTS WAR Anger and Long Back Project Sponsors of Border Track Divided Over Success of Undertaking
PAUL LOWRY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 12, 1934. p. 12 (1 page):
   Instead they passed us up like a dirty shirt.

   3. Equine Pair in Comeback; Heelfly and Chief Onaway Return to Races After Many Months' Layoff
PAUL LOWRY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 21, 1940. p. 12 (1 page):
   A coming 7-year-old, Heelfly has had more hard luck than a porcupine has quills and he has been passed back and forth like a dirty shirt.

   4. BY THE WAY with BILL HENRY
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 9, 1957. p. B1 (1 page):
   Gov. Chandler has set the speed limit at 60 m.p.h., which, as he says, "is fast enough" but if you stick with it you'll be passed up like a dirty shirt every now and then.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (Washington Post)
Around the Ring . . .
By Bill McCormick.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 27, 1935. p. SP6 (1 page):
   If you fail to follow through this time, I'm going to be off you like a dirty shirt.

---------------------------------------------------------------
EXTRA VIRGIN

   An extra extra virgin.  Read all about it.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Noni goes a-marketing
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 30, 1926. p. A6 (1 page):
   Improve your salad--improve your health--Castruccio Bros.
extra virgin cream salad olive oil is the brand to be used-...


(FACTIVA)
Dee Dee does Madonna
Diane White, Globe Staff
658 words
26 October 1992
The Boston Globe
City Edition
32
(...)
Dee Dee understands why you might be concerned. Any fantasy in which Wilford Brimley plays a role is hardly "normal" and bespeaks an unusual sort of erotomania. But it is nothing to be ashamed of. Dee Dee has a recurring fantasy in which she frolics in a vat of EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) with Martha Stewart and the Frugal Gourmet. It is not a fantasy Dee Dee would choose to have, but that's the thing about fantasies, we can't always control them. So relax and enjoy!


(FROLICS IN A VAT OF EVOO WITH MARTHA STEWART?--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 02:39:33 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Atlanta=20Hartsfield=20Ai?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rport?=
Message-ID: 

I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta."

I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did 
Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It has been 
so long since they went out of business, I can't remember.

In a message dated 3/14/04 4:16:36 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes:


> I can't locate the post, but somebody referred to Atlanta's Hartfield 
> Airport.
> 
> This brings up an old airline proverb, "If you go to Hell on Eastern
> Airlines, you will change planes in Atlanta".? A quickie Google search 
> turned up this
> proverb nine times, seven of them with the plane change occurring at Atlanta
> Hartsfield, but with varying airlines.
> 
> I first heard this saying in 1973 from an Eastern stewardess while returning
> from Florida from the Skylab launch.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> The phrase "zigged when I should have zagged" sounds like it comes from 
> World
> War II (or even World War I) when ships sailed on zig-zag courses to avoid
> submarines.
> 
> ? ? ? ?? - Jim Landau
> 
> 


From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET  Mon Mar 15 02:48:06 2004
From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:48:06 -0800
Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962)
In-Reply-To: <07747B44.5BCEFDDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

There's a 1979 piece in the Times suggesting it was Lenny Bruce who cooked
that one up...

Bits of Lenny Bruce
Embassy Club Ned Chaillet. [Reviews]
Compulsive truthtelling com-
bined with manic fantasy must
have a clinical name. For the
sake of simplicity we can call
it satire when we speak of
Lenny Bruce, but Bruce's own
definitiion of satire took
account of public acceptability.
He called it "Tragedy Plus
Time" and suggested that
Adolf Hitler would become a
reasonable subject for laughter
in the future. ...

-jk

At 05:29 PM 3/14/04, you wrote:
>COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits
>
>    My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol
> Burnett and Woody Allen.  Both of them used it (see below), but neither
> coined it.
>    Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly
> agree with this one.  September 11th won't ever be funny.  The holocaust
> is not funny.  I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my
> mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen
> years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple"
> published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny.
>    Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976
>...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy.
>His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME
>passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And
>at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for
>four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and..
>Reno, Nevada   Sunday, May 02, 1976  628 k
>
>Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000
>...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing
>process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems
>to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this
>TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man
>since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing..
>Elyria, Ohio   Tuesday, February 15, 2000  596 k
>
>Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962
>...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting
>the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL
>BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my
>TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN
>ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a..
>Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, December 05, 1962  1070 k
>(Same as the following--ed.)
>
>Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962
>...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting
>the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and
>in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M.
>PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into
>thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of..
>Salisbury, Maryland   Friday, November 23, 1962  662 k
>Pg. 23, col. 3:
>    "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time.  After getting the bills,
> I believe it."
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>    Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It
>Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27,
>1943. p. 4 (1 page)
>(I didn't see it--ed.)
>
>Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping:
>Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
>D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page):
>    PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett:  "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus
> time.  When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after
> the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh."
>
>    Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .'
>By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston,
>Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page):
>    "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time."  Like something horrible that
> happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward.
>
>    THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh.
>JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1,
>2001. p. C15 (1 page):
>    "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody
> Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors."


From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET  Mon Mar 15 03:03:15 2004
From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:03:15 -0800
Subject: Comedy is tragedy plus time (1962)
In-Reply-To: <07747B44.5BCEFDDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Essayist Clarence Page also considers Lenny as the source:

CLARENCE PAGE: It's not hard to imagine Lenny somewhere getting a big laugh
out of this. It was he, after all, who famously declared satire to be a
formulation of tragedy plus time. "Give any tragedy enough time," he said,
"and people will let you make fun of it." ( Singing ) Indeed, today even a
musical with a song called "Springtime for Hitler" can be a Broadway hit.
But heaven help the performing artist who is ahead of his or her time. If
Will Rogers never met a man he didn't like, Lenny Bruce never met an
obscene word he didn't like to repeat over and over again, draining it of
its punch and power, and using it to make a larger point about real
obscenity in the world, like war and bigotry and greed. Compared to that,
Lenny would say, "heck, words won't kill you, man. Like, they're only words."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/july-dec03/page_07-15.html

A number of sites refer to this quote:

"Satire is tragedy plus time. You give it enough time, the public, the
reviewers will allow you to satirize it. Which is rather ridiculous, when
you think about it."

-jk


At 05:29 PM 3/14/04, you wrote:
>COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME--594 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits
>
>    My quotations books and various internet sites give this to Carol
> Burnett and Woody Allen.  Both of them used it (see below), but neither
> coined it.
>    Although I laugh at the comedy of THE DAILY SHOW, I don't particularly
> agree with this one.  September 11th won't ever be funny.  The holocaust
> is not funny.  I can look back on my father's illnesses and death, my
> mother's illnesses and death, the near-bankruptcy of my co-op, fourteen
> years of parking tickets, and my pathetic effort to get "the Big Apple"
> published in New York and New Orleans--it'll all never be funny.
>    Newspaperarchive has 1962, but it's surely earlier.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Nevada State Journal - 5/2/1976
>...you can live a better life. HUMOR TRAGEDY, PLUS TIME, equals comedy.
>His Business Ben's.....May Jo's death, the seasons changed slowly. TIME
>passed. Spring came. Summer, fall.....courtesy of the business troops. And
>at a TIME convenient to the Akerts. With the sixth.....for the Akerts for
>four years from the TIME he was 16. He remembers that Bluma and..
>Reno, Nevada   Sunday, May 02, 1976  628 k
>
>Chronicle Telegram - 2/15/2000
>...by an old saying: HUMOR is TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. Part of our healing
>process as.....that subject matter at a 12th-grade level. PLUS, it seems
>to work. Elyria Schools.....a stick to try to increase the numbers this
>TIME around. On the stick side, the district.....Man has been killing man
>since the dawn of TIME. Killing will not end. What is missing..
>Elyria, Ohio   Tuesday, February 15, 2000  596 k
>
>Reno Evening Gazette - 12/5/1962
>...in Westwood. They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting
>the bills, I.....THE MISTRESS SPARKS EL 5-4242 ACTION PLUS OPEN THEY'LL
>BLOW EVERY FUSE IN THE BIG.....t do that by giving it 75 per cent of my
>TIME McQueen's passion for racing was no.....UVJNG N-E-W S-tf-O-W PAUlN
>ROBERT ROSSEN'S PLUS THIS EXCITING ADVENTURE-COMiOr AT' 2a..
>Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, December 05, 1962  1070 k
>(Same as the following--ed.)
>
>Salisbury Times - 11/23/1962
>...in Westwood They say that COMEDY IS TRAGEDY PLUS TIME. After getting
>the bills I.....him, particularly hIS advice on playing COMEDY scenes and
>in the cutting. He's always.....MAD JAZZ TONITE SAT. SAT. CONT. 2-11 P.M.
>PLUS CO-HIT: "13 WEST STREET" NOW THRU SUN.....president won't eat into
>thIS pre cious TIME "although maybe i will cut into one of..
>Salisbury, Maryland   Friday, November 23, 1962  662 k
>Pg. 23, col. 3:
>    "They say that comedy is tragedy plus time.  After getting the bills,
> I believe it."
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>    Comedy as Lonsdale Sees It
>Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27,
>1943. p. 4 (1 page)
>(I didn't see it--ed.)
>
>Lassie Is Moving Again; Channel Hopping:
>Richard Arthur. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
>D.C.: May 18, 1969. p. 245 (1 page):
>    PHILOSPHY from Carol Burnett:  "Comedy often consists of tragedy plus
> time.  When a certain thing happens to us it can seem terrible, but after
> the passage of enough time it's something good for a laugh."
>
>    Carol Burnett 'Comedy is tragedy . . .'
>By Kimmis Kendrick. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston,
>Mass.: Jul 1, 1970. p. 15 (1 page):
>    "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time."  Like something horrible that
> happened and wasn't funny then, but seems hilarious a year afterward.
>
>    THE HUMOR; Seriously. People Seem Ready for a Good Laugh.
>JOHN SCHWARTZ. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 1,
>2001. p. C15 (1 page):
>    "Comedy equals tragedy plus time," said a character in one of Woody
> Allen's movies, "Crimes and Misdemeanors."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 03:49:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:49:20 -0500
Subject: When the Dead Sea was only sick (1948?); Rooster socks
Message-ID: 

WHEN THE DEAD SEA WAS ONLY SICK

WHEN THE DEA SEA WAS + SICK--282 Google hits, 114 Google Groups hits

   I'm going through an excellent article on FACTIVA:
"TALK OF TEXAS: Dognation!  Old sayings rain in like for Noah" by Carol Rust, HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 5 April 1992. (It's long.)
   "Hector" isn't here, but there are three "long time" phrases:

When the Dead Sea was just sick.
Since Patton was a private.
Since Jesus was a baby.


(FACTIVA)
Nobel hits home // Fermilab head, 2 others share award for physics
Jim Ritter
792 words
20 October 1988
Chicago Sun-Times
FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL
1
English
(Copyright 1988)

Leon Lederman was in typical form Wednesday, mixing jokes with physics as he discussed his Nobel Prize.

"I knew I would get the Nobel when I noticed that the three doctors who won for medicine are all in their 80s," said Lederman, 66. "This is the year for the geriatric Nobel Prize. . . . I'm so old I can remember when the Dead Sea was only sick."


(FACTIVA)
WHEN TALKING TEXAN, THIS DOG'LL HUNT
Kent Biffle
1,391 words
26 March 1989
The Dallas Morning News
HOME FINAL
37a
English
(Copyright 1989)

Writer Wallace Chariton of Plano is soooooo Texan. He sent a low-bidding Indiana printer a book manuscript to go on the press and a bag of Texas dirt to go under it.

When the dust settled, Wally's book was, yes, printed on Texas soil.

This Dog'll Hunt is Wally's Texas dictionary, a tow sack full of memorable sayings he treed in Texas.
(...)
*Elderly -- He was around when the Dead Sea was just sick.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
(Someone please check.  It looks like a legitimate Earl Wilson piece. though...I'm having problems signing on.  I have to re-join Newspaperarchive each time I use it at NYU?--ed.)
Times Recorder - 11/24/1948
...been around so long she WAS THEre WHEN THE DEAD SEA WAS embalmed That's earl, broTHEr.....THE state's highest court WHEN he filed for THE Senate. He WAS named to THE court in 1944.....for THE trend toward locating factories in THE nation's smaller communities. THE trend.....Two WAS company anri three WAS a columnist WHEN Charmin' Sharman Douglas WAS dated at El..
Zanesville, Ohio   Wednesday, November 24, 1948  818 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
SOCKS ON A ROOSTER (continued)

   I'll try to look through this book for what/when it considers the source:

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Socks on a rooster;
Louisiana's Earl K. Long,
Author: McCaughan, Richard B.
Publication: Baton Rouge, Claitor's Book Store, 1967
Document: English : Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 04:25:48 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:25:48 -0500
Subject: Big Hat, No Cattle (1961, 1977)
Message-ID: 

BIG HAT, NO CATTLE--1,970 Google hits, 450 Google Groups hits

   There's a gap between 1961 and 1977, but keep in mind we don't have a lot of newspapers from Texas of this period that are digitized.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Big hat, no cattle :
managing human resources /
Author: Skinner, Wickham.
Publication: Boston : Division of Research, Graduate School of Business Administration, Harvard University, 1980
Document: English : Book
Libraries Worldwide: 1

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Author(s): Newman, Randy.
Publication: Beverly Hills, CA :; DreamWorks,
Year: 1999
Description: 1 sound cassette :; Dolby processed.
Language: English
Music Type: Rock music
Standard No: Publisher: DRMC 50115; Dreamworks
Contents: My country --; Shame --; I'm dead (but I don't know it) --; Every time it rains --; The great nations of Europe --; The one you love --; The world isn't fair --; Big hat, no cattle --; Better off dead --; I miss you --; Going home --; I want everyone to like me.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News - 12/15/1977
...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT, NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the CATTLE.....coach. "The over-all quickness of their BIG people is impressive. AND they play tough.....the game with two Disaster mangled coach's BIG dream EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP) Bobby Watson.....point of the game. "This is definitely a BIG lift for the Indiana said NOtre Dame..
Lima, Ohio   Thursday, December 15, 1977  554 k

Hillsboro Press Gazette - 12/15/1977
...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the catt'.e.....coach. "The over-all quickness of their BIG people is impressive. AND they play tough.....sports any more. They are a hard business. BIG money business. It's every man for.....consideration with 542 yards. The all-time BIG 10 scorer will be battling Houston's Rob..
Hillsboro, Ohio   Thursday, December 15, 1977  606 k

Mountain Democrat - 1/25/1982
...age of 32. "It's the same old story, BIG HAT AND NO CATTLE. San Jose Earthquakes owner.....left) AND Eric Jenkins converge on the BIG center but too late. Democrat photo by.....BIG Lady Bruin vyin B-2B Ponderosa cagers B-3.....with it when you consider tHAT Jim Otto, of NO knees AND "Pride AND is fixing those..
Placerville, California   Monday, January 25, 1982  408 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 12/15/1977
...Mr. Davis is NOt like a lot of Texans BIG HAT, NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the CATTLE.....points per Contest AND rebounding well. The BIG bcrost has come from crackerjack Beaver.....World Series from 1972 to 1974. The BIG names of tHAT era are gone, AND the A's.....The Haven is young, with NO dominating BIG man. Taylor has been shuffling people in..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Thursday, December 15, 1977  726 k

Gettysburg Times - 12/15/1977
...Mr. Davis is NOt like a ot of Texans BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. THAT man's got the.....Alabama defeated NO. 15 Michigan 78-63 AND 19thranked Kansas State clobDICK MYERS.....points early in the game behind Louis Orr AND Ross Kindel AND went on to an easy.....of eight. Reginald King scored 30 points AND grabbed 12 rebounds AND Anthony Murray..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Thursday, December 15, 1977  506 k

Gettysburg Times - 2/27/1995
...of this, Ann? Baffled Betty Dear Betty: BIG HAT. NO CATTLE. Gem of the Day: When the.....relationships NO small attribute. Lupine AND Poppies, Phlox AND Larkspur are.....furniture, old-fashioned fashions of lace AND hoop-skirts AND bonnets, AND I adore old.....house has one large container for trash AND one for cardboard AND paper; NO overflow..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Monday, February 27, 1995  575 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
   1. Joy, Anger and, by Finley, a Parting Shot at Kuhn; Joy, Anger and, From Finley, a Parting Shot at Kuhn
By JOSEPH DURSO. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 15, 1977. p. 74 (2 pages)

   2. What They Are Saying
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1977. p. 212 (1 page):
   Charles O. Finley, who sold the Oakland A's to Marvin Davis, a Denver oil man:  "Mr. Davis put the money on the line.  Mr. Davis is not like a lot of Texans--big hat, no cattle.  That man's got the cattle..."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Washington Post)
   1.  On Standing Up to Be Counted; Gallery Glimpses Matter of Degree Doubletalk Plain Talk Women's Work... Probing the Frontier Jabbing the Klan Senate Has a News 'Pro' Flash! Title
By Robert C. Albright Staff Reporter. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1961. p. E1 (2 pages)
FIRST PAGE:
   Rep. David T. Martin (R.-Neb.) reports another barbed one: How an Oklahoma Indian defines a New Frontiersman:
   "Big hat--no cattle."
   Needless to say, this kind of irreverence is confined pretty much to the Republican corner.

   2. Denver Oilman Purchases A's From Finley; A's Lease Poses Problem
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Dec 15, 1977. p. 96 (2 pages)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 04:58:16 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:58:16 -0500
Subject: Kicked to death by grasshoppers (1817)
Message-ID: 

DEATH BY GRASSHOPPERS--6 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

   There aren't a lot of hits for this (alleged) Texas saying, but I thought it's amusing.  There are two early hits here.
   This surely would take a lot of grasshoppers!


(GOOGLE)
Compare Prices and Read Reviews on Abominable Dr. Phibes at ...
... death. There is a death by rats, a death by bees, a death by grasshoppers,
and Phibes sets everything with exceptional care. All ...
www.epinions.com/content_116965346948 - 39k - Cached - Similar pages

  
Beaufort County, NC - Letters ...
... I will pay you in eighteen months and not before. If I don't pay you
by that time I wish I may be kicked to death by Grasshoppers. ...
ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/nc/ beaufort/letters/latham01.txt - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

Texan Sayings
... You can rest assured I'm telling you the truth. "I hope to be kicked
to death by grasshoppers if it ain't the truth." I'm not lying. ...
www.baetzler.de/humor/texan_sayings.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

[ELFWOOD] SF&F Art / Sarah Billson / Sarah Billson
... speakers, succeeding in christ, boogers, dancing to classical music, elves, writing,
chewing on pens, play-fighting with nephews, death by grasshoppers, gum on ...
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/s/a/sarbil/ - 33k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Texas Sayings
... tell you a hen dips snuff, you can look under her wing." (You can rest assured I'm
telling you the truth.) "I hope to be kicked to death by grasshoppers if it ...
alt.tasteless.jokes - Jul 7, 2000 by G - P - View Thread (8 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fresno Republican - 10/26/1878
...city, as well, deserves to be kicked to DEATH BY GRASSHOPPERS for the Bame thing.....know that the art o whistling was designed BY an Providence expressly to cause breaks or.....do, where the liabilitie were represented BY one or two or tare figures and a parcel of..
Fresno, California   Saturday, October 26, 1878  777 k


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   Monthly catalogue of new publications, with critical remarks
E, L, V. The American Monthly Magazine and Critical Review (1817-1819). New York: Oct 1817. Vol. 1, Iss. 6; p. 473 (5 pages):
Pg. 476:
  Keep Cool, a Novel.  Written in Hot Weather.  By Somebody, M. D. C. &c.
   Baltimore, Joseph Cushing.  New-York, Kirk & Mercein, 12mo. 2 vols. pp. 435.
(...)
   Among the vulgar jokes are such expressions as these, "kicked to death by grasshoppers," "like shot from a shovel," "a hurra's nest," "a hen in a hurricane," &c.


From N270053 at VM.SC.EDU  Mon Mar 15 05:38:09 2004
From: N270053 at VM.SC.EDU (Michael Montgomery)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:38:09 EST
Subject: Southeastern Conference on Linguistics positions
Message-ID: 

Dear ADS-Listers (in the Southeast)

I am chairing a committee of the Southeastern Conference on Linguistics
searching to fill two leadership positions (which it is possible to
combine) in the organization.  I would appreciate your considering the
following announcement and forwarding it to anyone you believe might
have a possible interest.  The five-year terms of appointment will begin
on January 1, 2005.  Daedline for application is May 1 of this year or
the earliest point thereafter feasible.  Potential applicants are
strongly encouraged to contact me to discuss any issues that present
themselves.  Please feel free to email me atullans at yahoo.com or phone
me at 803.765.0594.

I realize that the ADS list does not usually carry job announcements,
but in view of time pressures and other considerations this has become
a necessity.

With regards

Michael Montgomery


1.  Executive Secretary/Managing Editor

The Executive Secretary/Managing Editor of the Southeastern
Conference on Linguistics shall be appointed by the Executive
Committee of the Society for a five-year renewable term.  The
Executive Secretary/Managing Editor shall be answerable to the
Executive Committee and is expected to submit a written report to
the Executive Committee at least one week prior to the Spring
meeting.

Secretarial responsibilities include recording the transactions of
the Society and the Executive Committee and presenting minutes of
these transactions at each successive meeting, copies of which
minutes are to be given to each member of the Executive Committee
and posted at the Society's website; maintaining the Society's
membership list; coordinating plans for Society meetings; working
with the Program Committee to review abstracts and organize the
schedule for Society meetings; representing the Society in the
larger linguistic community; and performing such functions as may
be assigned by the President and the Executive Committee.

The Executive Secretary/Managing Editor shall be the chief fiscal
and organizational officer of the Society.  Fiscal responsibilities
include collecting dues; keeping records of dues paid; maintaining
Society funds in an authorized financial institution; dispensing
funds as approved by the Executive Committee; and presenting to the
Society at its Spring meeting a financial report which shall have
been audited by an auditor and a copy of which shall be presented
to each member of the Executive Committee.  Only the Executive
Secretary, or his/her designee, shall be empowered to write checks
for the Society.  The Executive Secretary is expected to keep up-
to-date accounts of finances and membership and to provide annually
to the President and Vice-President a list of members' postal and
email addresses.

Editorial responsibilities of Executive Secretary/Managing Editor
include maintaining the Society's website; soliciting information
and contributions for the Society's website; contracting with a
printer for the Southern Journal of Linguistics (henceforth `the
Journal'); making financial arrangements for mailing and collecting
payment for the Journal; promoting the Journal to libraries and
other potential new subscribers; and answering all queries and
correspondence regarding the Journal.  The Executive
Secretary/Managing Editor is expected to have support stated in
writing from his/her institution, in the form of a reduced teaching
load, use of departmental equipment and supplies, student
assistants, or other necessary arrangements.  S/he may use up to
$500 annually to fund travel to the Spring meeting.




2.  Editor of the Southern Journal of Linguistics

The Editor shall be also be appointed by the Executive
Committee of the Society for a five-year renewable term.  S/he
shall also be answerable to the Executive Committee and is expected
to submit a written report to the Executive Committee at least one
week prior to the Spring meeting.  The Editor is responsible for
publishing the Journal in fiscal concert with the Executive
Secretary/Managing Editor.  Editorial responsibilities include
soliciting manuscripts for review; managing the review and revision
of manuscripts in a timely manner; appointing and utilizing an
Editorial Board and, if warranted, a Book Review Editor; assuring
timely publication of the Journal; editing and producing copy of
articles, book reviews, artwork, cover design and advertisements
for the Journal; working with the printer with all details of
production, such as paper selection, color schemes, scans, etc.;
and collecting the copies of the Journal and mailing them.  The
Editor is expected to have support stated in writing from his/her
institution to assist the editing of the Journal as well as a
reduced teaching load, use of departmental equipment, supplies, and
space, and student assistants.  S/he may use up to $500 annually to
fund travel to the Spring meeting.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 10:54:43 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:43 EST
Subject: Razor Soup(1876); So ugly(1984); Off/Prom Dress(1990);
 Tragedy/Pants Torn (1936)
Message-ID: 

RAZOR SOUP

RAZOR SOUP--9 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits

   That 1992 HOUSTON CHRONICLE "Talk of Texas" article has: "So sharp he must
have had razor soup for breakfast."
   It's not a popular American regional dish.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: bronco breaks Texan!
... Jim was wrestling the rhino into the Land Rover. Sharp as razor soup,
that Greg. Ben "Wolf Ticket" Murphey Yeah, we Broncs are a ...
bit.listserv.skeptic - Jul 26, 1994 by greg bart - View Thread (3 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gazette And Bulletin - 7/14/1950
...a sharp mark was accused of having eaten RAZOR SOUP? July 14, 1880 William
P. Baker..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Friday, July 14, 1950  764 k

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 5/30/1954
...BOSS CALHOOW WON'T BE CALLIN' LIKE SHE HAP RAZOR SOUP FOR BREAKFAST...
MEENA, WHAT TIME..
Great Bend, Kansas Sunday, May 30, 1954  723 k

Ohio Democrat - 8/3/1876
...Advocate, he must have been indulging in RAZOR SOUP. GEN. THOMAS Ewiso, we
are glad to..
New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 03, 1876  1013 k
Pg. 3?, col. 3:
   "G." is entirely too sharp, and like Larry of the _Advocate_, he must have
been indulging in razor soup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO UGLY THAT THE TIDE WON'T TAKE HER OUT

SO UGLY + TIDE--2,670 Google hits, 642 Google hits

   Another in the "Talk of Texas" article.  This is classic ugly.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Ugly jokes
Well, here goes with some of the worst "ugly jokes:" S/he's so ugly
even the tide wouldn't take her/him out. S/he's so ugly that ...
net.jokes - Aug 25, 1984 by Geoffrey R. Walton - View Thread (13 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OFF LIKE A PROM DRESS

LIKE A PROM DRESS--1,570 Google hits, 1,120 Google Groups hits

   The guy wears a "dirty shirt."  The girl wears a "prom dress."  Such is
American speech.
   Not in the HDAS or the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Predictions for Week 3 (NFL)
... Cowboys over Redskins (the 'Pokes love RFK Stadium) Jets over Bills
... maybe BIG It's late, and I'm off like a prom dress Zippy
rec.sport.football - Sep 21, 1990 by Zippy - View Thread (3 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HUMOR IS MERELY TRAGEDY STANDING ON ITS HEAD WITH ITS PANTS TORN

PANTS TORN + TRAGEDY + COBB--34 Google hits, 131 Google Groups hits

   "Humor is tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn" is not as
popular as "humor is tragedy plus time."  Maybe tragedy got new pants?
   The exact date of the source is not given in the many Google hits.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Helena Independent - 5/16/1937
...is TRAGEDY standing on its head .with Its PANTS TORN. Lots of folks think
a sense of.....happen in the dirigible's Morn wlien :t was TORN with n flaming
explosion. Considered one.....the loss, of life fwra the airliner TRAGEDY of
Increased to 34. A Otrmaa on the..
Helena, Montana Sunday, May 16, 1937  536 k

Nashua Reporter - 6/2/1937
...this definition is TRAGEDY standing on its PANTS TORN. Lots ol folks think
a mor is..
Nashua, Iowa Wednesday, June 02, 1937  968 k

Helena Independent - 4/21/1936
...be TRAGEDY standing on its hea.fl with Its PANTS TORN. IRVIN S. COBB.
ia3fl by NAMA..
Helena, Montana Tuesday, April 21, 1936  479 k

Indiana Weekly Messenger - 6/3/1937
...is TRAGEDY standing on i1s head with its PANTS TORN. Lots of folks think a
srr.se of..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 03, 1937  761 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 11:45:36 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:45:36 EST
Subject: Weaned on a pickle (1924)
Message-ID: 

WEANED ON A PICKLE--328 Google hits, 159 Google Groups hits

    This famous food phrase is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF
AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.  Perhaps Fred Shapiro has the exact date that Alice
Roosevelt Longworth said it.
   The "Talk of Texas" list has: "Sour personality: Looks like she was weaned
on a pickle."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newark Advocate - 5/22/1929
...she grAbbed thAt Ancient wheeze About being WEANED ON A PICKLE And mAde it
All her.....weddings. The UUe.s of emotiON run so deep ON such An occAsiON,
thAt they would rAther.....ll bet, nAught cAn go fAster ThAn A rneter ON A
motor. Single copy... .-c. Uy cAriK-r oy..
Newark, Ohio Wednesday, May 22, 1929  816 k

Middlesboro Daily News - 9/3/1924
...the CoolidffC bAnner, the mAnAgers wAs WEANED ON A PICKLE.' By those who h
Ave hAil.....to mAke the DAvis cAndidAcy will dwell ON whAt book does not sAy,
rAther thAn ON.....ChicAgo, 111. LocAl Advertising rAtes ON ApplicAtiON. FlAt
RAtes PoliticAl: To be..
Middlesboro, Kentucky Wednesday, September 03, 1924  530 k
Pg.2?, col. 5:
   A new Coolidge story has bobbed up in Washington.  How it will affect the
campaign, if at all is not yet determined.
   Apropos of the president's rather sour visage, one of the younger and less
reverent members of the official family is said to have remarked "Coolidge
was weaned on a pickle."
   By those who have had occasion to test the rather acid quality of the
president's sarcasm, this phrase has been dubbed a stroke of genius.

Zanesville Signal - 5/19/1929
...the suggestiON thAt Mr. Cbolidge hAd been, "WEANED 'ON A PICKLE." Her lA
test .reported.....SIX FLYING FREIGHTER OF THE SKIES HOPS OFF ON JUNE 1 ON FIRST
VOYAGE ACROSS THE erlin.....AirplAne crossing is scheduled to begin ON e 1,
when the big GermAn irbAch flying..
Zanesville, Ohio Sunday, May 19, 1929  1375 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 9/13/1924
...of chAnge. Mr. LA Follette CAlvin hAd been WEANED ON A PICKLE, represents
rAdicAlism.....other tests of reAlity thAn whAt mAy be put ON pAper. ON Mr. DA
vis's superior trAining.....LA Follette. He is reAthe first cAndidAte ON the
operAting S011 cArrying A flAg of..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, September 13, 1924  667 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 5/24/1929
...suggestiON thAt Mr. Coolldge .Tmcl been "WEANED ON A PICKLE." Her lAtost
Is reported.....Some who know her sAy she hAs never been ON time Anywhere. But
no mAtter how lAte she.....veterAns who mAde their hornet here, hAngs ON the
south wAll of the MemoriAl building..
Ironwood, Michigan Friday, May 24, 1929  477 k


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 15:27:51 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:27:51 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
In-Reply-To: <200403140502.i2E521vq025632@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

E.A.Martinez-Gibson posted as follows:

        >>>
TWljaGFlbCwNCiANCkkgYW0gd29ya2luZyBvbiBhIHByb2plY3QgdGhhdCBkZWFscyB3aXRoIHRo
ZSBhY3F1aXNpdG9uIG9mIHNlciBhbmQgZXN0YXIuIFRoZSB0ZXN0IEkgZ2F2ZSB0aGUgc3R1ZGVu
dHMgdGVzdHMgdG8gc2VlIGlmIHN0dWRlbnRzIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgY2VydGFpbiBjb25jZXB0cyBp
biBFbmdsaXNoLklzIHRoaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHlvdSBtaWdodCBiZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGZv
ciB0aGUgQURTIHNlc3Npb24/IElmIHNvLCBJIGNhbiBnZXQgeW91IGFuIGFic3RyYWN0IGJ5IFdl
ZG5lc2RheSB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0Lg0KIA0KRWxpemFiZXRoIE1hcnRpbmV6LUdpYnNvbg0KQ29sbGVn
                [...]
        <<<

Whatever that is, please don't do it. Post text -- not zipfiles, not
Word files, not binaries. Thank you.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 15:32:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:32:02 -0500
Subject: A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN
Message-ID: 

I seem to recall seeing this in one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little
House" books (fictionalized memoirs of growing up in the 1870s in the
settlement of the Midwest, in a plural form: "Whistling women [girls?]
and crowing hens..."

While certainly not an antedate to Barry's of (Republican Compiler -
5/26/1840), it suggests another form to search for.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Mon Mar 15 15:50:00 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:50:00 -0500
Subject: A WHISTLING WOMAN AND A CROWING HEN
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

In the bathroom in our cabin in West Virginia there is a kitchy, country
plaque that reads, "Whistling girls and crowing hens all come to some bad end."

Kathleen E. Miller
The New York Times


At 10:32 AM 3/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>I seem to recall seeing this in one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little
>House" books (fictionalized memoirs of growing up in the 1870s in the
>settlement of the Midwest, in a plural form: "Whistling women [girls?]
>and crowing hens..."
>
>While certainly not an antedate to Barry's of (Republican Compiler -
>5/26/1840), it suggests another form to search for.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 15 16:13:59 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:13:59 -0500
Subject: ppl of "strode"
In-Reply-To: <200403120500.i2C50Avq028288@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

(Apologies for not threading with the exact subject line, but it comes
out here as

Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_subject-verb_agreement_-_stri?=
         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dden?=

That is, equal-sign question-mark ISO-8859-1 question-mark Q
question-mark ... and more such junk.)

Arnold of Zwicky, or arnold of zwicky, writes:

        >>>

once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are then
four possible analogies giving a past participle:

1.  pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven)
2.  pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken)
3.  pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found)
4.  pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven)

the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar
with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
"strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write.  (note that
all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have
an alveolar obstruent after it.  so "stride" fits well into this
class.)

        <<<

What's more, it *rhymes* with "ride"-- as close a model as you'll find.
That should be an even stronger "argument" to the speaker's mind than
"alveolar obstruent".

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 15 17:25:35 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:25:35 -0500
Subject: Remarkable Definition & Antedating of "Burgle"
In-Reply-To: <200403151146.i2FBk1J01923@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

1. Bryan Garner points out that the OED has a remarkable definition for
_burglarize_: "To rob burglariously."

2. Here is a slight antedating of the wonderful Penzancian back-formation
_burgle_:


burgle (OED 1872)

1871 _Appleton's Journal of Literature, Science and Art_ 2 Sept. 279
(American Periodical Series)  The following paragraph shows some of the
new words that have been coined by the modern school of journalists: "he
excurted a day or two on beer, and, getting short, he burgled a little.
But he was soon copped and jailed.  The news was immediately wired to his
amiable wife, who railed to him at once."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Mar 15 17:31:03 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:31:03 -0000
Subject: ppl of "strode"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Mark Mandel writes:

> the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no
> exemplar with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
> "strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
> verbs with any great frequency: drive, ride, rise, write.  (note that
> all of these have /r/ before the /ay/, and that three of the four have
> an alveolar obstruent after it.  so "stride" fits well into this
> class.)

Analogy is a powerful force, I agree. What then am I analogising with
when I feel the correct past participle is "strode"> (I hadn't even
considered "stridden" until this discussion started, despite its
being urged on users by both Fowler and Garner.) A search through my
historical printed works database (derived from the Project Gutenberg
archive) finds more examples of "had strode" than of "had stridden",
including one from "Lady Chatterley's Lover": "One afternoon, as she
sat brooding, watching the water bubbling coldly in John's Well, the
keeper had strode up to her."

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Mar 15 17:34:51 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:34:51 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A______Re=3A_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re=3A_subject-verb_agreem?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?ent_-_stridden?=
Message-ID: 

        Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate and Webster's New World College 4th also go for stridden as the past participle of stride.  I found this a little surprising, since I don't recall ever hearing or reading the word "stridden."  I suppose that if I were going to use the past participle of stride, I would say "strode."

        I seem to be in reasonably good company.  I did a little survey of Google, Google Groups, and Westlaw's Allnewsplus file.  "Has strode" and "have strode" were the most popular choices, with 611, 157, and 199 uses, respectively.  "Has stridden" and "have stridden" were distinctly less popular, with 189, 22, and 32 uses.  "Has strided" and "have strided" brought up the rear with 108, 12, and 4 uses.  Note that the difference is most pronounced on Westlaw, the only one of my three databanks that consistently uses professionally edited sources.

        Notwithstanding the cogent arguments that have been given for "stridden," I think that most people don't recognize it as a valid word.  "Strided," of course, is obviously inappropriate.  That leaves only "strode" as a recognized existing word that can fill the gap.

        After writing the above, I checked the Century Dictionary, which accepts either stridden or strid as the past participle.  "Has strid" and "have strid" do not seem to have any significant support on Google or Google Groups.

John Baker


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 20:55:11 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:55:11 EST
Subject: Atlanta Hartsfield Airport
Message-ID: 

In a message dated  Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST,   RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

>  I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta."
>
>  I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did
>  Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It
has
>   been  so long since they went out of business, I can't remember.

I Googled on +"go to Hell"+"change planes" and +"go to Hell"+Hartsfield.

According to its Web site,
http://www.atlanta-airport.com/Default.asp?url=sublevels/airport_info/gmpage.h
tm,
the airport has been in operation since 1926, with several name changes along
the way.

1942
In July, because of a dispute with the Post Office, the City reaffirmed the
name as Atlanta Municipal Airport because they could not find the original
paperwork. Hartsfield later was quoted as saying that he very clearly remembered
that the City had officially changed the name in 1929.


Aside to Barry Popik:  "dirty shirts" is what the British Redcoats called
American soldiers.

         - James A. Landau


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Mar 15 21:45:44 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:45:44 -0500
Subject: thriftless drunken sailors
Message-ID: 

Someone recently asked about the spending habits of real, as opposed to rhetorical, drunken sailors.  Actually, my father had been one, in his youth, but by the time I was born he had given up the sea.
In the absence, then, of direct knowledge on the matter, I offer the following:

A Female Sailor.  --  Constable Joseph arrested yesterday, on suspicion, a young woman called "Shorty," whom the officer found in the Five Points, flush of money, and spending the same very freely.  He brought her before the magistrate, where on being questioned, she said that about thirteen months ago, she came off Blackwell's Island, having served out a sentence of three months as a common prostitute; and not wishing to engage again in the same pursuits of life to procure a living, she assumed male attire by procuring a suit of sailor's clothing, and . . . took passage in a whaling ship for a three year's cruise.  In this disguise this young woman maintained her position among the other men in the forecastle for over seven months, until . . . by a mere accident her sex was discovered.  [She was turned over to the American Consul in a port in India, who gave her a suit of women's clothes.]  About a week ago she arrived, and having over $60, which she had made by her trip, s
he was spending it at various groggeries on the Five Points, which fact looking rather suspicious, as it was supposed to have been stolen, caused the officer to bring her before Justice Mountfort.  This singular female has a very good looking countenance, short stature, and broad build; her hair was cut short; she both chewed and smoked tobacco, and talked sailor lingo very fluently, which is generally of a plain nature, embellished now and then in their own way.  Her manner of walking and movements of her body would appear to the observer as if she was a young man dressed up in female clothing.  The investigation proving satisfactory to the magistrate, she was discharged from custody.
NY Herald, January 16, 1850, p. 1, col. 6

The next refers to 1824; the writer was an out-of-work actor who had borrowed a portable telescope and had been showing people views of the moon through it from City Hall Park, NYC:
I had not counted my sixpences; but my pockets felt pretty heavy, and I was far from being dissatisfied with my two hours work; so, shouldering the instrument of my momentary good fortune, I wended my way homeward.  As I was passing through Leonard Street, I met three men, who proved to be the captain of a vessel and two of his sailors.  They hailed me, and demanded what sort of craft I had in tow.  I told them it was a powerful telescope, with which I had been viewing the stars, (I knew that the moon was out of the question, and had been for at least half an hour.)  "The stars!  I say, shipmate, let's have a squint at them stars."  "Certainly, sir; six cents a squint."  "Very well.  I say, Capt'n, and Jack, let's have eighteen pence worth of stars.  Up with your jury-mast."  "Yes."  "That's it -- steady!"  "What star will you have, gentlemen?"  "Capt'n, what star will you have?"  "What star? why, let's see -- Venus!"  "Oh, yes!  Wenus, by all means."  I raised up the telesc
ope and pointed it to the brightest star I could find, and when I turned the screws to regulate the focus, they commenced star-gazing.  After satisfying themselves with Wenus, they wanted to see Saturn, Jupiter, and a host of others.  I gratified them, at sixpence each, until the receipts from my nautical customers amounted to three dollars!  They were very tipsy, and I believe they would have given me their custom until daylight if I would have consented to stay with them.  When they had viewed a great number of planets and fixed stars, my astronomical knowledge began to give out, and I was obliged to show the same planets two or three times over, taking care to change the focus so as to give them a different appearance.  It was nearly one o'clock in the morning.  I proposed to my customers to close the exhibition, which they reluctantly agreed to; not, however, until I consented, in consideration of their being liberal patrons, to "throw in" a couple of planets for good mea
sure.
Sol Smith, Theatrical Management in the West and South for Thirty Years  First Published New York 1868.  New edition, with an Introduction and Index by Arthur Thomas Tees.  N. Y. & London: Benjamin Blom, 1968, pp. 35-36.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 15 23:40:43 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:40:43 EST
Subject: Go to Hell thru [what city?] first
Message-ID: 

I tried this and found six hits for Atlanta and two for Dallas. I found 
nothing about Eastern Airlines at all. Current use, then, would seem to be divided 
between Delta (Atlanta) and American (Dallas). 

According to , Atlanta and Miami were 
Eastern Hubs, from the 1950s until they went out of business (in the 1980s?). 
Thus it is totrally reasonable that the saying began with Eastern and then 
swtiched to Delta when Eastern collapsed. It makes sense, too, that Dallas would 
fill in the blank for American users.

It is interesting, though, that this seems to be mostly a Southern 
expression. After all, Delta and American both have hubs other than Atlanta. But I don't 
find any record of Los Angeles or Chicago or St. Louis or New York (all 
American hubs) filling the blank. Or even Miami (American's gateway to South 
America).

I wonder why?

In a message dated 3/15/04 3:55:46 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes:


> In a message dated? Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:39:33 EST,?? RonButters at AOL.COM 
> wrote:
> 
> >? I couldn't get any hits for "you will change planes in Atlanta."
> >
> >? I have heard this said about Delta, which has a major hub in Atlanta. Did
> >? Eastern really have a hub there? I thought their big hub was Chicago. It
> has
> >?? been? so long since they went out of business, I can't remember.
> 
> I Googled on +"go to Hell"+"change planes" and +"go to Hell"+Hartsfield.
> 
> According to its Web site,
> http://www.atlanta-airport.com/Default.asp?url=sublevels/airport_info/gmp
> age.h
> tm,
> the airport has been in operation since 1926, with several name changes 
> along
> the way.
> 
> 1942
> In July, because of a dispute with the Post Office, the City reaffirmed the
> name as Atlanta Municipal Airport because they could not find the original
> paperwork. Hartsfield later was quoted as saying that he very clearly 
> remembered
> that the City had officially changed the name in 1929.
> 
> 
> Aside to Barry Popik:? "dirty shirts" is what the British Redcoats called
> American soldiers.
> 
> ? ? ? ?? - James A. Landau
> 
> 


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 16 00:10:33 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:10:33 -0500
Subject: Go to Hell thru [what city?] first
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>I tried this and found six hits for Atlanta and two for Dallas. I found
>nothing about Eastern Airlines at all. Current use, then, would seem
>to be divided
>between Delta (Atlanta) and American (Dallas).
>
>According to , Atlanta and Miami were
>Eastern Hubs, from the 1950s until they went out of business (in the 1980s?).
>Thus it is totrally reasonable that the saying began with Eastern and then
>swtiched to Delta when Eastern collapsed. It makes sense, too, that
>Dallas would
>fill in the blank for American users.
>
>It is interesting, though, that this seems to be mostly a Southern
>expression. After all, Delta and American both have hubs other than
>Atlanta. But I don't
>find any record of Los Angeles or Chicago or St. Louis or New York (all
>American hubs) filling the blank. Or even Miami (American's gateway to South
>America).
>
>I wonder why?

I suspect that the answer lies in the history of airline routes. When
I was in Austin in the 1970s, the innovation for our travel was that
instead of changing in Dallas for travel to anywhere other than
Chicago, we got new routes directly to a fair number of other cities
(Atlanta, New York, LA). When I moved to Gainesville, the hub system
was quite novel; but it's spread since then.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 00:17:43 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:17:43 -0500
Subject: Moneybags ("chiefly British"--OED)
Message-ID: 

(OED) ("money bag, n."  draft entry Sept. 2002)
3. Cookery (chiefly Brit.). A filled pastry parcel in which the edges of a thin piece of pastry are gathered together around a filling so as to resemble a bag of money.

  1993 Evening Standard (Nexis) 9 Feb. 36 Something not to miss, however, are deep-fried buns with vegetable stuffing, little money-bags of thin pastry with a savoury filling. 1996 Daily Tel. 2 Nov. (Weekend Suppl.) 10/8 Salmon and ginger moneybags. 1999 Scotl. on Sunday (Electronic ed.) 21 Mar., For moneybags, place 2 tablespoons of filling in the centre of the square then simply bring the sides of pastry together, and pinch tight, leaving a top frill.
---------------------------------------------------------------

   Is OED crazy?  Yes, it's a British dictionary, but this is pathetic!
   I was just perusing an Asian menu at a restaurant on First Avenue and East 58th, and thought I'd check the OED's revised "moneybags."
   Most all of the Google hits are Chinese and Thai.  Asian cuisine.
   British cuisine is...oh, forget it.


(FACTIVA)
COASTAL CUISINE
SMALL RESTAURANT WITH EASTERN FLAIR HAS A BIG FOLLOWING
MARSHA BACENKO THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
589 words
20 December 2002
The Virginian-Pilot and The Ledger-Star, Norfolk, VA
FINAL
06
(...)
My appetizer, Thai money bags, were wontons cunningly tied with strings of onion to look like little purses, hence the name ($5.99). Filled with minced shrimp and vegetables and fragrant with ginger and garlic, they were delightful, bite-sized treats. They were served with a dipping sauce of soy and scallions and served with a refreshing marinated cucumber salad.


(PROQUEST)
Baby Elephant Steps: A blithe ignorance of some restaurant-biz basics keeps Galanga from living large
Karetnick, Jen. Miami New Times. Miami:  Aug 8, 2002. Vol. 17, Iss. 18;  pg. N/A
(...) And, clearly, the crowd has been starved for local action -- on a night early in the week, the place had a small wait, and the valet told us it's always packed. Judging strictly by some of the Thai appetizers, I can see why. The "money bags," rice paper dumplings stuffed with a minced combo of chicken, shrimp, corn, and potatoes and deep-fried, were a savory treat. Greaseless and crisp, the little pockets were accompanied by a mild cucumber chutney. You can order the money bags alone, or you can sample them on a variety platter for two that also includes a second highlight of steamed chicken-shrimp dumplings, pleasantly topped with a hit of fried garlic. One caveat, however: Although the platter seems like a great deal for $10.95, keep in mind that you get what you pay for. Two spears of chicken satay were tasty but unremarkable, and the two spring rolls were crunchy and delicious. But, truly, they were so Lilliputian we couldn't help comparing them to a baby boy's, ah, thumb.


(PROQUEST)
A touch of Thailand
Clarence Y K Ngui. Malaysian Business. Kuala Lumpur:  Oct 16, 2001.  pg. 78
The Mieng Kam clearly embodies typical Thai attention to detail where food is concerned. This is understandable as to the Thais, food should not only taste good but it has to look good too.  Our second appetiser was Thung Thong (RM11.90). Not unlike a fried wantan (dumpling), it comes wrapped in the shape of a golden moneybag.  Crispy, and not too oily, the `moneybag' is best eaten with a chili sauce dip.


(FACTIVA)
A freeway-close touch of Thai ; DINING; The freshness of the ingredients add a special touch to the restaurant's offerings.
MARK MUCKENFUSS
THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE
882 words
5 October 2001
The Press-Enterprise Riverside, CA
AA31
(...)
PHOTO ; MAP; Caption: PETER PHUN; THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE; From left, Kanthima Kunawong, Chef Pannee Santhavachart and Paula Rungsawang of the Papaya Bay Thai Cuisine restaurant in San Bernardino show one of their appetizers called money bags and egg rolls with sweet and sour sauce. Moneybags is a golden pastry with minced chicken corn, crushed peanuts and spices.


(FACTIVA)
Thai Palace
By Scott Bolles
877 words
1 October 2000
Sun Herald
17
(...)
Despite the sauce, the dishes survive on good core ingredients. Deep-fried chicken and water chestnut-filled "wonton pastry" (moneybags) are good without climbing the heights of the rice paper rolls, but the king prawns in a coconut batter excel. Good-quality prawns are complimented by a batter that's studded with shards of coconut without over-working the point, and the batter, which at first seems overly thick, is actually comfortably light work.


(PROQUEST)
Flavors of Asia: Abundant Cookbook Harvest Opens with Dim Sum
Harris, Phyllis Louise. Asian Pages. St. Paul:  Sep 30, 1999. Vol. 10, Iss. 2;  pg. 14
(...)
e dim sum was originally created for snacking in Chinese tea houses, Liley opens the book with some tea history and brewing suggestions. "Chinese legend has it that, in 2737 B.C., the Emperor Chen-Nung discovered tea by accident one day while sipping boiled water in his garden," she writes. "A few leaves fell from a tea bush into his cup, the emperor tasted it and liked it and the tea drinking custom began." Liley goes on to explain cooking utensils, ingredients and methods before moving on to dim sum classics, dumplings, buns, pancakes, parcels and wraps, and more. Forty recipes in all, each with a full page color photo. Choices include Golden Shrimp Balls, Pearl Balls, Shrimp Toasts, Crisp-Fried Gow Gee, Work-Fried Money Bags, Steamed Chicken Buns, Steamed Pork Ribs and Mini Vegetable Spring Rolls. These are dipping sauces and desserts as well.


(GOOGLE)(13 hits for "Thai Moneybags")
rediff.com: What's On in Bombay
... drink. The starters include mixed vegetables with sesame seeds, vegetable
spring rolls, vegetable tartlets and Thai moneybags. Happy ...
www.rediff.com/travel/whaton.htm - 41k - Mar 15, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Rediff On The NeT: What's On in Bombay
... satay, fish cutlets, chicken served on sugarcane sticks, chicken wrapped in banana
leaves, tofu on sticks, vegetable souffles, Thai moneybags, Thai spring rolls ...
www.rediff.com/travel/wobom.htm - 43k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Bloys Business Caterers - Catering in London
... Thai Seafood Dimsum, ? 1. 00. Thai moneybags, seafood in filo pastry,
prawn wontons, Mini Oriental Crab Cake, ? 1. 15. Thai Fish Cake, ? 1.
43. ...
www.bloys.co.uk/menusandpricesindian&oriental.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] LIGHT HORS D' OEUVRES
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... cream cheese served with raspberry jalapeno sauce California rolls (other sushi available)
Spring rolls or wontons, turkey shaomi or Thai moneybags served with ...
www.sdmaritime.com/uploads/lighthorsdoeuvres.pdf - Similar pages

[DOC] Beverages
File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
... Chicken Satay. Breaded Prawns. Vegetable Pakoras. Thai Moneybags. Onion bhajis.
Cantonese fried Chicken strips. Selection of dips. Fresh fruit. Cold Fork Buffets. ...
www.lsbu.ac.uk/catering/menus/1_1_hospitality-2004.doc - Similar pages

Continental Catering - Traditional Buffet
... cheese served with mango chutney * California rolls and other sushi available *
Spring rolls, dim sum, wontons, turkey shaomi or Thai moneybags served with ...
www.continentalcateringsd.com/menu8.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Continental Catering - Light Hors D'oeuvres
... California rolls (other sushi available). ? Spring rolls, wontons,
or thai moneybags served with plum sauce and spicy peanut sauce. ...
www.continentalcateringsd.com/menu1.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

NuCulinary :: Classes & Registration
... Filipino Lumpia Mu Shu Pork with Chinese Pancakes Vietnamese Rice Paper Rolls Thai
?MoneyBags? (Minced Pork & Prawns wrapped in a Bean Curd Pastry Pouch ...
www.nuculinary.com/classes-uwajimaya.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Redwood Inn Menu
... Sticks Calzone served with Marinara Sauce Fresh Scallops Wrapped in Bacon Coconut
Shrimp Assorted Mini Quiche Vegetable Eggrolls Thai Moneybags served with ...
www.theredwoodinn.com/menu.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] PRIVATE PARTIES
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... and GRAND packages) Hearts of Artichoke with Boursin cheese Triple cheese stuffed
jalepanos Chicken with chilpolte poppers Thai moneybags Wild mushroom puffs ...
www.thecrookedlakehouse.com/parties2.pdf - Supplemental Result - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)(130 hits for "Thai money bags")
Baltimore Weddings: The Admiral Fell Inn
... Sodas and Juices (One bartender per 75 guests recommended at $150.00) Cocktail Reception
(Please select three) Spanikopita Thai Money Bags Quesadilla Trumpets ...
www.admiralfell.com/hotel/celebrate_02.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] Friday & Sunday WEDDING RECEPTION PACKAGE 4
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Beer, House S election of Wines, Sodas & Juic One bartender per 75 guests COCKTAIL
RECEPTION (Please select 3) Spa nikopita Thai Money Bags Quesadilla Trumpets ...
www.admiralfell.com/hotel/pdfs/friday_sunday.pdf - Similar pages
[ More results from www.admiralfell.com ]

[PDF] Campbell?s HORS D'OEUVRES MENU
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... and cheese. 50 pieces 93.00 100 pieces 180.00 Thai Money Bags - A
mix of shrimp and vegetables wrapped in a delicate pastry. Each ...
www.campbellsresort.com/images/pdfs/hor-s-d2003.pdf - Similar pages

Bhan Thai Restaurant
... TOONG TONG. Thai Money Bags. Minced chicken, Thai spices, wrapped in pastry,
deep-fried and served with a plum sauce. MOOPING. Pork Spare Ribs. ...
www.tmmuk.com/bhanthai/cuisine.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Receptions
... 3 crackers pp) $.85 Per Person Thai Money Bags (served hot) Crushed Shrimp in a
wonton skin served with an oriental dipping sauce (portion 3 pcs pp) $1.60 Per ...
www.middlebury.edu/offices/catering/receptions.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

:: The New Orleans Zephyrs Official Website :: Ovations Food ...
... AMOY APPETIZER PLATTER An assortment of Asian specialty items Spring rolls, shrimp
toast, wonton, crab ragoons Thai, money bags, Served with special Asian dips ...
www.zephyrsbaseball.com/ovations.shtml - 81k - Cached - Similar pages

The Palladium Restaurant: Reception/Cocktail Parties
... Sauce; Vegetarian Spring Rolls; Chicken, Red Pepper, Chipotle Tortilla
Roll Ups; Spinach Stuffed Mushrooms; Thai Money Bags with Shrimp. ...
www.palladiumrestaurant.com/reception.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Seattle Store's Cooking Classes - Uwajimaya
... Vietnamese Rice Paper Rolls. Thai "Money Bags" (Minced Pork & Prawns wrapped in a
Bean Curd Pastry Pouch). Indonesian Rice Flour Balls with Macadamia Nut Filling. ...
www.uwajimaya.com/cookingclasses_seattleschedule.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

Liang-I Shaolin 5 Animal Kung Fu Australia, Index
... Silk Road Selection, Indian Curry Puffs, Thai Money Bags; Assorted Mini Pies,
Curry Chicken, Vegetable, Pepper Steak, Lamb & Rosemary, Mini Party Pies; ...
www.shaolin.com.au/bday2003.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

banquet_menu.html
... House hors-d'oeuvres - A selection of mixed hors-d'oeuvres including some of the
following: pot stickers, Thai money bags, shrimp toast, jalape?o poppers ...
www.evansale.com/banquet_menu.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)(214 hits for "money bags" + "Chinese" + "vegetables")
(GOOGLE)(62 hits for "moneybags" + Chinese" + vegetables)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 01:24:31 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:24:31 -0500
Subject: Ficelle (1960)
Message-ID: 

(OED)("ficelle")
  1. In comb., as ficelle colour, the colour of pack-thread; ficelle-lace, string-coloured lace. Also ficelle-coloured adj.

  1882 Queen 22 July 94/1 No dress looked prettier than a thin canvas of dark ficelle colour. 1882 World 21 June 18/1 A white muslin trimmed with wide flouncings of ficelle lace. 1900 Westm. Gaz. 5 Feb. 2/1 Hat of ficelle-coloured straw. 1927 Observer 12 June 11/4 Ficelle coloured lace.

    2. A trick, artifice, (stage) device.

  1890 E. DOWSON Let. 8 June (1967) 152 There is more psychological motive in it and less of ?ficelle? which Bouthors objected to so in the ?Diary?. 1894 W. ARCHER Theatr. ?World? 1893 xviii. 112, I..did not quite..believe in it, taking it rather as a mere ficelle. a1916 H. JAMES Art of Novel (1934) 322 Half the dramatist's art, as we well know, is in the use of ficelles. Ibid. 323 The ?ficelle? character of the subordinate party is..artfully dissimulated. 1920 G. MURRAY in H. G. Wells Outl. Hist. III. xvii. 107/1 True, raids on women were a real cause of war, but they were also a very favourite ficelle of fiction. 1968 Listener 26 Sept. 412/3 No Pucelle, Candy's a ficelle; and..her fate is to be briefly grabbed by a series of stereo~types.
---------------------------------------------------------------
FICELLE + BREAD--808 Google hits, 44 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE GROUPS)(NY TIMES article of last Wednesday)
Re: Taking the Artisan Out of Artisanal
... Kalamata olive bread in Kalamazoo? ... Foccacia, levain, ciabatta, ficelles ? 10
years ago, who knew what a ficelle was?" said Sue Brooks, who is the bakery ...
alt.bread.recipes - Mar 10, 2004 by Roy Basan - View Thread (19 articles)


   English cuisine, French cuisine...everything in my spare time between parking tickets.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)("ficelle" + "bread")
Re: The $8 loaf of bread
A small baguette is called a ficelle; a double-thick baguette is called a batard ... As
another aside, the best bread at La Brea Bakery is the country white, which ...
la.eats - Oct 4, 1998 by Quodlibet9 - View Thread (18 articles)

Patonki (Re: Olisiko jollain vinkkej? etel?-Ranskasta?)
... ficelle [fee-SEHL] French for "twine" or "string," referring culinarily to a
long, very thin loaf of French bread, about half the size of a BAGUETTE. ...
sfnet.matkustaminen - May 20, 1998 by Matti Gr?nroos - View Thread (1 article)

Aches and Pains and the Sandwich that washed it away
... I mulled over the sandwiches and said, yes I'll have a tomato motz
(tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, on a ficelle bread with pesto). ...
rec.food.cooking - Jan 29, 1998 by maryf - View Thread (3 articles)

Our Recent Trip to Paris
... I would have been happy with just the Brouilly and some bread. ... I had the boeuf
a la ficelle (beef on a string), a "grandma dish" if ever there was one. ...
bit.listserv.travel-l - Oct 27, 1997 by David Hall - View Thread (3 articles)

Lemon Bread Recipes (3)
... Makes 1 loaf. Lemon Bread 1 pkg. dry yeast 2 Tab. ... Form the dough into a long,
thin ficelle. Allow to rise 1 1/4 times in volume, ab. 10 min. ...
rec.food.recipes - Jul 5, 1995 by JGruhn at aol.com - View Thread (1 article)

Re: Goat Cheese recipes needed!
... Jill: Very simple: French bread if available (baguette or even ficelle) or the best
substitute and a glass of Beaujolais or (if the bread and cheese deserve it ...
rec.food.cooking - Jun 6, 1995 by Guy Beaulieu - View Thread (8 articles)

Re: Yea! Spring has arrived.
... With croutons made from onion ficelle bread and a viniagrette composed of fruity
extra virgin olive oil, red wine vinegar, dijon mustard, chopped garlic, and a ...
rec.food.cooking - Apr 22, 1995 by ynnuf at yetti.wanganui.gen.nz - View Thread (5 articles)



(FACTIVA)(273 hits for "ficelle")
A KITCHEN ANTHOLOGY part 4
JANE GRIGSON
1,592 words
24 November 1982
The Globe and Mail
SB2
(...)
Nowadays, the French make bread from wholemeal. You find wholemeal bread with walnuts, rye bread, bran bread, five-cereal bread, etc. If you are looking for an appropriate kind to serve with a French meal, you will do better to make or buy this kind of loaf, rather than hope to achieve those inimitable sticks of white bread, the ficelle, the baguette and the pain de livre.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   French Bread Secret
By Art Buchwald. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1960. p. C8 (1 page):
   There are many types of French bread.  The very, very thin long loaf is called "la ficelle," which means the thread.  THe _ficelle_ is mostly crust with very little dough inside.  It naturally breaks very easily.  Because of its thinness the ends are very pointed, and it must be handled more like a rapier than a saber.
   The _ficelle_ is excellent sticking out of the car window when you want to make a right turn, and for pointing out places of interest to foreigners.
   The next size is "la baguette" (the stick) which is the most popular size.  The _baguette_ is carried like a rifle, the butt of the bread in the palm of your hand and the other end accross the shoulder.  When meeting your boss or your wife on the street, you present arms, holding the loaf vertically in front of you, six inches from the top and bottom.  In cases where people have suffered ski accidents it can also be used as a cane.
   It is bad form to twirl the _baguette_ or swing it like a baseball bat in the street.
   SHORTER than the _baguette_ and thicker is "le batard" (which means what you think it does).  The _batard_ is a cross between the _baguette_ and the "pain fantaisie" (fancy bread, which isn't very fancy).  The _batard_ is excellent for political demonstrations and carrying late at night in case of attack.
   The "gros pain" or big bread, is as long as the _baguette_ and as thick as the _batard_.  It is chiefly bought by large families, but, because it is so unwieldy, the mother sends all the children to buy it.  They usually carry it home like a ladder.

   The Enthusiasm of Snail Addict Helps Turn a Meal Into a Feast
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 23, 1968. p. 42 (1 page):
   From the oven, she retrieved a hot, homemade ficelle--a small, narrow loaf of bread--and spooned warm hollandaise that she'd fluff up a moment before over the snail dish.

   Cuisine de Femme: Tending the Fires; Cuisine de Femme: Tending the Fires of Tradition
By MIMI SHERATON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1977. p. 40 (2 pages)

   A Soupcon Of Spring: Fresh Goat Cheeses
Florence Fabricant. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 10, 1982. p. C8 (1 page)

   Vive la Baguette: As French as Paris; Vive la Baguette
By PATRICIA WELLS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 9, 1983. p. XX6 (2 pages)


(No New York Public Library time right now to do better--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 01:49:56 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:49:56 EST
Subject: as ADJ of a N as
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 2/19/04 2:53:30 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> my experience is also that those who have only the "of"-less
> construction tend to notice occurrences of the "of" construction, to
> comment on them, and even to deride them, while those who are heavy
> (perhaps exclusive) users of the "of" construction simply don't notice
> instances of the "of"-less construction, and are often astonished to be
> told that they don't talk/write quite like many other people and that
> editors and teachers might even object to their usage.? this is a
> common pattern for nonstandard vs. standard variants.
> 

As one of the "of"-using folks, I agree with this to this extent: I have 
often noticed that others "leave out" the "of," but I tended to think this was 
just a styulistic variant of no consequence, like the presence or absence of "to" 
with "help" (e.g., "I need to help my brother to get his shoes on") or (in 
the South) with "have" (e.g., "Do you want me to have him to call you?" and 
"They almost had the ceiling to fall on their heads!"). I don't recall ever being 
derided for my of-fulness. I have no idea what my written practice is.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:10:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:10:05 -0500
Subject: Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? (1990)
Message-ID: 

MOUTH + KISS YOUR MOTHER--2,130 Google hits, 4,310 Google Groups hits
MOUTH + KISS YOUR FATHER--95 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits

   This is a popular line after someone spouts some of the slang we discuss here.  Maybe Jonathan Green has it.
   In various forms, such as "(Do) you kiss your mother with the same mouth?" and "(Do) you kiss your mother with that mouth?"  Sometimes "(Do) you (also) eat with that mouth?"
   It refers to a foul-mouthed man kissing his mother.  A foul-mouthed woman would kiss her father.  Fathers just don't get enough kisses, IMHO.



(FACTIVA)
Closer to Home
540 words
17 April 1992
The Milwaukee Journal
A2
(...)
Will the national television exposure of the Lawrencia Bembenek case (on ABC's "PrimeTime Live" Thursday) put even more pressure on the district attorney's office to move for a new trial? We hear that the Milwaukee County district attorney's office bought a copy of "Run, Bambi, Run," the authorized biography written by Kris Radish. (Note to the salty-tongued Judy Zess, former friend of Bambi who testified against her at the trial 10 years ago and who was interviewed by Diane Sawyer in her Texas home: Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?)


(PROQUEST)
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Hochman, David. Us Weekly. New York: Jun 1994. p. 29


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/20/1949  (REMEMBER, THIS IS 1994!--ed.)
...in junior high school Do you KISS YOUR MOTHER with that MOUTH? BLASTING RADIO.....It AT because I don't know any Al. Make YOUR fence shorter and plant pachysandra.....over 300 just because you can't control YOUR french fry addiction. CHEAP PERFUME..
Elyria, Ohio   Monday, June 20, 1949  528 k (1994!!--ed.)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: PLEASE HELP ME AGAIN!!!!!
... their mail spool. Nice mouth! You eat with that mouth? You kiss your
mother with that mouth? Toilet mouth! Brian =-->Name that tune ...
alt.flame - Dec 19, 1990 by Doug Fierro - View Thread (16 articles)

Re: Cleaning failing keyboard (classic mac)
... Such a mouth! Do you eat with that mouth? Do you kiss your mother with that
mouth? Toilet mouth! Here's hoping I don't hafta fix any keyboards. ...
comp.sys.mac.misc - Jul 26, 1990 by Brian Aslakson - View Thread (6 articles)

Salmon ch4
... Danny popped one in his mouth and threw his arms up in the air. ... br "But you kissed
him!" .br "Do you kiss your mother?" .br "Yes, but..." .br "Well, she's ...
alt.prose - May 9, 1990 by Robert-John Evans - View Thread (1 article)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Mar 16 02:10:59 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:10:59 -0600
Subject: Origin of John Kerry's last name
Message-ID: 

    My thanks to Michael Kirley (more details on Kerry's surname) and
Se?n Fitzpatrick (bit of creative writing) for their e-mails, which
appear below my signoff.

Gerald Cohen


At 9:07 AM -0800 3/15/04, Michael Kirley wrote:
>Here is an article from the Boston Globe that provides further
>details on Kerry's surname:
>
>http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml


At 2:40 AM -0500 3/15/04, Sean Fitzpatrick wrote:
>And are we not supposed to notice Kohn . . . Cohen?-)
>
>I have a bit of fun with this story in my web log,
>http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/
>
>Se?n Fitzpatrick
>Beer is good food


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:53:12 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:53:12 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20polygotry?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 2/19/04 9:45:01 AM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US 
writes:


> Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically 
> polygyny) in over a century.?
> 

Huh? Don't you read the newspapers? While it is true that the mainstream LDS 
church has given up nonmonogamous marriages since the admission of Utah to the 
Union, there are many people who consider themselves "Mormons," mostly living 
in the Western states, who enter into more than one marriage at a time, they 
just do it clandestinely. As I understand it, however, these marriages get no 
support whatsoever from the Church, and there is no apparent movement of any 
kind to change the present official policy. 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 02:56:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:56:09 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
Message-ID: 

FOOTBALL BAT--1,190 Google hits, 953 Google Groups hits

http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
Messed up as a football bat. (when something ain't quite right)

   This is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.  I found it on the above site.
   Baseball has a bat, of course--not football.
   Sometimes given as "queer/gay as a football bat."


(GOOGLE)
Life is something you do when you can't sleep.
"About as fucked up as a football bat." - Apr. 06, 2003 - 12:24 pm. Drunken logic
is pretty funny. I mean, it's funny until you wake up in the back yard. ...
sturge.diaryland.com/030406_15.html - 4k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Come Laugh with us
... Academy(n): modern school where football is taught. As screwed up as
a football bat. Avid golfers have a fairway look in their eyes. ...
www.jokesdigest.com/cgi-bin/jokepage1.cgi?jid=2519 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

ns: Your Voice Counts Forums - View Topic
... I gotta come clean you guys... I am as gay as a football-bat. Just kidding. ... Rough
smokers voice of mom* "That guy looks as gay as a football-bat". ...
www.ipetitions.com/ boards/viewtopic.php?topic=3792&forum=6&start=15 - 39k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Football Bat
... I started jerking off right on her bed and when she saw me said "don't do that"
My life has been as fucked up as a football bat probably because of family ...
alt.stories.incest - Apr 27, 2003 by invntrr - View Thread (1 article)

Re: TAN: Liquor
... Called a Dr. Pepper (which it tastes like). It will mess you up like
a football bat. *long silence* No kidding. A football bat. ...
rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan - Jul 13, 1998 by Leigh D. Butler - View Thread (46 articles)

Cute things they say (2 1/2 year old)
... day. He told me, "Travis hit me with a football bat". I said, "You
mean a baseball bat?" He replied, "No, it was a football bat". ...
misc.kids - Dec 30, 1991 by Dan Wright - View Thread (2 articles)

Fscked up as a football bat
Thank you to Mr. McEwan and to the city of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. Trev -- "I
think Trevor is an idot. Just the kind of robot President CLITton likes. ...
rec.sport.football.college - Feb 10, 2000 by Trevor Zion Bauknight - View Thread (1 article)

Sport Taglines
... ACADEMY(n): modern school where football is taught As screwed up as
a football bat. Avid golfers have a fairway look in their eyes. ...
rec.humor - Sep 5, 1997 by Zul - View Thread (1 article)

Re: Terrible tradegy
hahahaha, like my old man used to say; "Queer as a football bat" he didn't like
you much, did he? dude, you rock, i just laughed out loud... <3<3<3 thanks. ...
alt.music.mdfmk - Jun 30, 2002 by OmniBishop - View Thread (102 articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) (earliest citations)
Re: THE SUBJECT IS FEELINGS NOT RAPE (damnit!)
... So a woman is raped, and everyone says " You can expect terrible mental trauma,
and you are likely to be as fucked up as a football bat for years." Does this ...
soc.women - Sep 5, 1991 by Charles Parr - View Thread (20 articles)

Pure Oxygen
... - "Mr. Trepanier, you're about as useful as a left-handed football bat!"
- anon. Matthew Skinner skinner@ [ nessie | unicorn ].wwu.edu
sci.space - May 16, 1990 by Matthew Skinner - View Thread (1 article)


(FACTIVA)(First citation of 27, with most of them bad hits--ed.)
WOMEN FILE SEX CHARGES // ALLEGATIONS: Tomas Gotor III was fired in July 1993 because of complaints against him of harassment and discrimination
ELLIOT BLAIR SMITH: The Orange County Register
1,205 words
29 May 1994
The Orange County Register
MORNING
g14
(...)
"On one occasion during this time, you were interested in getting (a male employee's) file. You said ..., `Let's go out and find out if (he) is queer as a football bat. ... We've got to find a way to get these guys.' "


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 03:31:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:31:01 -0500
Subject: Shit/Shoot fire and save the matches (1961)
Message-ID: 

AND SAVE THE MATCHES--96 Google hits, 94 Google Groups hits

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "_shitefire_ n. (17C) a braggart, a boaster (lit. trans. of CACAFUEGO)."  No mention of matches.
   Walker Percy's THE MOVIEGOER is 1962, with a copyright of 1961.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: More dialect
My mother always said "Shit fire ...and save the matches". A painful
expression! Her father, who from what I can barely remember ...
alt.appalachian - Oct 4, 1993 by DBEAM at wvnvm.wvnet.edu - View Thread (9 articles)

Re: Heroes
... them). You mean it is *legal* for him to own .50 caliber tripod mounted
type machine guns? Cacafuego and save the matches! Chris ...
alt.callahans - Apr 9, 1993 by HC61000 - View Thread (92 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nothing?


(FACTIVA)(Scroll to bottom--ed.)
Tuna-ites dive into Fiesta
Diane Holloway
1,083 words
25 April 1993
Austin American-Statesman
FINAL
7

The residents of Greater Tuna, Texas running wild through a grocery store - now there's an advertising concept that deserves to become a reality!

Indeed, a couple of cross-dressing Austinites have taken over prime-time television, adding much-needed chuckles to the otherwise dreary prime-time programs.

The Houston-based Fiesta chain has taken advantage of Tuna-ites in a big way. More than a dozen different spots were filmed in New York featuring the popular characters created and performed by Joe Sears and Jaston Williams in the play Greater Tuna. The ads, in a weird and wonderful way, trumpet the arrival of Fiesta stores in the Austin area.

The spots feature Tuna's finest - the Tastee Kreme girls, Inita Goodwin and Helen Bedd; "smut snatchers" Vera Carp and Bertha Bumiller; chatty Aunt Pearl; and radio disc jockeys Arles and Thurston. The ads are so funny you don't realize you're being sold a bag of groceries.

"Do you boil it, fry it or stab it?" Vera wonders, peering into a bag of just-bought goodies.

"What is it?" asks Bertha, taking a peek herself.

"I don't know, but they sell it," Vera retorts.

In the same ad, Bertha brags that she's "saved enough money to get my hair done."

Fans of Greater Tuna have been delighted to see their favorite characters pop up, however briefly, several times a night. And Sears and Williams, who don't normally do commercials, have been delighted by their experience with Fiesta.

"They turned the camera on and let us play with the groceries," Sears said in a phone interview from Fort Worth, where he and Williams are starring in the play The Foreigner. "The Fiesta people approached us through our agents at the William Morris Agency in New York and made a very tempting offer.

"We made the stipulation that if we did it, it had to be with our brand of humor. They gave us a blanket to do anything we wanted to do, so Jaston started writing these loony ideas. They loved it from the beginning. Most of them were scripted, but there are 10-second drop-ins that were just improvisation. `I don't know, but they sell it' - that was an improv line."

Sears said his favorite spot is one Williams does as Vera.

"She says, `Spit fire and save the matches! There's nothin' that makes me madder than a secret I don't know about!' I laughed and laughed when I saw him do that," Sears said.


(FACTIVA)
FROM CULLALOE TO CULLOWHEE.
By Tom Hubbard.
2,173 words
13 June 1998
The Herald
31
(...)
I gave a hoot of chauvinistic delight when one of my students, Gina Broadway, traced her ancestry back to Fife. Ferociously anti-redneck and with a passion for archaeology, Gina is at the centre of a spirited group which hangs out in the library cafe. Raunchy, intellectual, they offer a refreshing alternative to the prevailing campus culture of competing pieties and anxious grade-chasing. Indeed Gina and her entourage have reversed our roles and made me their student of Appalachian phrase-making: "If God's willin' and the creek don't rise"; "Shit fire and save the matches"; "You're a stoopid man if you piss off a Southern woman of Scottish descent." I wouldn't dare.


(AMAZON.COM)
Season of the Machete by James Patterson (Author) (Mass Market Paperback)
 ? Excerpt from page 52 "... sleep, maybe. Shit fire and save matches. Skip eatin' dinners altogether. Cut ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
Suzanne's Diary for Nicholas by James Patterson, Andrew Gross (Hardcover - July 2001)
 ? Excerpt from page 31 "... a look. Shi ire and save matches. The right wheel was as ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
The Moviegoer by Walker Percy (Author) (Paperback)
 ? Excerpt from page 147 "... chep. Chep. Silence. "Shtfire and save matches." Not ten feet below, two ..."

(AMAZON.COM)
Straight Life: The Story of Art Pepper by Art Pepper, Laurie Pepper (Paperback - April 1994)
 ? Excerpt from page 91 "... "Tarnation!" and "Shit fire and save matches!" Hahahaha! Art is sensitive even ..."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 04:58:28 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:58:28 -0500
Subject: Boiled owl (1861); Hogan's goat (1925)
Message-ID: 

BOILED OWL

BOILED OWL--519 Google hits, 246 Google Groups hits

(OED)
 Intoxicated. slang. Also phr. as drunk as a boiled owl.
  [1885 Referee 31 May 3/3 Twiss..had just the boiled-owlish appearance that is gained by working all night in a printing-office.] 1886 J. A. PORTER Sks. Yale Life 156 There is a balm for a headache caused by last night's debauch to have it said you were ?slightly cheered? or ?slewed? or ?boiled?. 1892 Daily Tel. 12 Dec. 5/4 The expression, ?Intoxicated as a boiled owl?, is a gross libel upon a highly respectable teetotal bird. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 300 He brought him home as drunk as a boiled owl. 1928 Amer. Speech IV. 102 Expressions synonymous with or circumlocutory for ?drunk?..blotto, boiled. 1940 ?H. PENTECOST? 24th Horse (1951) v. 45 He's boiled to the ears.

    Drunk as a boiled owl?
    Why?  Why an owl?  Why a boiled owl?
    Too much beer and Wise potato chips?


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   1. WAITING FOR DEAD MEN'S SHOES.
JESSIE MAY. Godey's Lady's Book and Magazine (1854-1882). New York: Sep 1857. p. 209 (5 pages)
Pg. 211:  And poor Henry exerted himself to the utmost of his strength to keep up with the vigorous old man, who declared himself as tough "as a boiled owl, and worth a score of your scientific gentlemen farmers."

   2. THE GREAT DAVIS DINNER ON THE FOURTH OF JULY.; BILL OF FARE. SOUPS. BOILED. ROAST. ENTREMETS. DESSERT.
Vanity Fair (1859-1863). New York: Jun 29, 1861. Vol. 3, Iss. 79; p. 297 (1 page):
   Boiled Owls with Corn Whiskey.

   3. OUR WAR CORRESPONDENCE.
McARONE. Vanity Fair (1859-1863). New York: Oct 18, 1862. Vol. 6, Iss. 147; p. 184 (1 page):
   But the history of genius is the history of intoxication. (...)
   Owing to circumstances over which I don't seem to have much of any control just now, I shall close.  Did you ever see a Boiled Owl?

   4. A Humorous Glance at the Temperance Question.
GEORGE W BUNGAY. Herald of Health (1864-1892). New York: Sep 1867. Vol. 10, Iss. 3; p. 103 (2 pages)
Pg. 104:  "Drunk as a beast" is a common saying; but what beast gets drunk?  The ass is a stupid animal, but it is a sober one, and he who drinks to intoxication need not laugh at its redundancy of ear.  "Drunk as an owl--as a boiled owl," is a maxim which has been so often in the mouths of drunkards that it has the odor or rum.  WHat does it signify?  THe owl is a feathered cat which can see in the dark; but the drunkard, when drunk, can not see at any time well enough to distinguish the town pump from his next-door neighbor.  THe owl is a brother of the quill, who earns his daily food by working at night; but the drunkard spends the earnings of others for that which is not bread, and for that which satisfieth not.  The owl never drinks alcohol; it never turns Mrs. Owl and the little Owls out of their nest; it never comes home on reeling wings, although it keeps late hours; it never changes its "tu-whit-to-hoo" for profane speech; it never neglects to make ample provision for its family; it never mistakes the eagle's nest for its own.  Then why calumniate that bird by making such foul comparisons?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Bismarck Daily Tribune - 12/23/1874
...with your eyes open. Now, I was drunk is k BOILED OWL, drunk when I enlisted, drunk when..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, December 23, 1874  646 k
Pg. 3?, col. 3:
   "But, by George, wasn't you sober?" responded the other with much feeling; "What a precious fool you must have been to run into this with your eyes open.  Now, I was _drunk_, drunk as a boiled owl, drunk when I enlisted, drunk when I took the oath, and drunk when I got here,--and made drunk, too, for that very purpose, by that rascally thief of a Sergeant who brought us here.
Sandusky Daily Register - 8/5/1889
...this morning. '-Dull was drunker than a BOILED OWL, and when the couple reached..
Sandusky, Ohio   Monday, August 05, 1889  1056 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 12/9/1899
...In the morning he awoke feeling like a BOILED OWL with insomnia. And now you couldn..
Newark, Ohio   Saturday, December 09, 1899  668 k

Bluefield Daily Telegraph - 5/19/1901
...fie is drunk an .1 lord, driink as a BOILED OWL, drunk :is a liddler'd bitch..
Bluefield, West Virginia   Sunday, May 19, 1901  372 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
HOGAN'S GOAT

HOGAN'S GOAT--1,890 Google hits,  2,760 Google Groups hits

http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
F$#&ed up as Hogan's goat (In a very bad way)


   DARE has 1955 (Funk _Heavens to Betsy_) for "Hogan's goat."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
WASHINGTON BEST AT NEW ORLEANS, SAYS COLLYER; Gus R. Called Sleeper in Second St. Donard Nominated as a Good Hazard Play in Third. Expert Picks The Beau as Juicy Morsel of Fourth Race.
By BERT E. COLLYER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 2, 1925. p. 18 (1 page):
   WASHINGTON--George, the Father of His COuntry, never told a lie, according to historians.  Johnny Hogan is training the chestnut son of Ballot.  So confident is Hogan of victory, however, that he wired the inhabitants of San Juan Hill to wager the sands on the hill and adds: "Don't forget my bit."  Hogan claims to have won $325,000 on Saturday and hoped to make a cool million when the David representative gets home in front.  Regardless of what Mr. Hogan--not Hogan's goat--thinks about the fifth spasm at Jefferson Park, I'll tell the world that this racer is a running fool in his present form and if he fails to collect the coin it will be time to throw the dope books out of the window for the remainder of the season.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sheboygan Press - 1/8/1932
...Pupils of third and fourth grades. Old HOGAN'S GOAT Boys of fifth and sixth grades..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin   Friday, January 08, 1932  779 k
Pg. 6, col. 2:
   Old Hogan's Goat--Boys of fifth and sixth grades.
   2. The Once Over; Business Opportunity
By H.I. Phillips. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 9, 1940. p. 11 (1 page):
   "The fans will love it.  They don't know a thoroughbred from Hogan's goat. ..."


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 07:39:50 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
Message-ID: 

Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 08:29:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:29:10 EST
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
Message-ID: 

   Geriatrics?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 08:54:04 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:54:04 EST
Subject: Weber "skunks" the Chicago Tribune on "Windy City"
Message-ID: 

(www.chicagotribune.com)
Published March 11, 2004

Dear Tom,

Does the "Windy City" expression really come from a New York reporter's quip
during the pre-Columbian Exposition competition of words?

Carl Jeffrey Weber

Dear Carl,

You're very close. The earliest published use of "Windy City" in reference to
Chicago came from Charles Dana in 1893. Dana, then the editor of the New York
Sun, had grown weary of hearing Chicagoans boast of the huge success of
Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition. He dubbed Chicago "that Windy City" in
an editorial--and the nickname stuck. The Exposition was immensely
successful: It attracted 27 million visitors that summer, almost half of the total U.S.
population at that time. With an average wind speed of 10.4 m.p.h., Chicago
ranks #76 among 255 U.S. cities and locations whose winds are measured by the
National Weather Service.

----------

Tom Skilling is chief meteorologist at WGN-TV. His forecasts can be seen
Monday through Friday on WGN News at noon and 9 p.m.

Write to: ASK TOM WHY, 2501 Bradley Place, Chicago, IL 60618 or
asktomwhy at wgntv.com (Mail volume precludes personal response.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
    SKUNKED!
    Carl Weber runs www.orionjeweb.com and has posted here on the origin of
the name "Chicago."  He asked the question, but he knew the answer.
    Chicago still doesn't.  This is sad.


From MartinezE at COFC.EDU  Tue Mar 16 14:37:20 2004
From: MartinezE at COFC.EDU (Martinez-Gibson, Elizabeth A.)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:37:20 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Please let me know where to send the abstract.
 
Thank you, Liz

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Michael Adams 
	Sent: Sat 3/13/2004 4:42 PM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
	
	

	Dear Colleagues,
	
	I am pleased to announce that one of the ADS sessions at this year's MLA convention will consist of papers in memory of James Sledd.  I have in hand another excellent submission titled "English, Spanish, and the New Nativism," but we are still two papers short to complete our program.  If any of you are interested in pursuing the subject of that paper, or anything remotely related, or, I guess, anything at all, please, please submit an abstract to me as soon as possible.  MLA deadlines are strict, and I really must have everything sent to them by the end of the month.  Please remember that, in order to particpate in the MLA program, one must be registered as an MLA member by April 1.
	
	Feel free to pass this call along to colleagues (including graduate students) who may not be on this list.
	
	Thanks so much!
	
	Michael
	


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 16 15:23:03 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:23:03 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: <66C82538.518605F9.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:56 PM -0500 3/15/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>FOOTBALL BAT--1,190 Google hits, 953 Google Groups hits
>
>http://www.warlockltd.com/ess_thgt/downhome.html
>Messed up as a football bat. (when something ain't quite right)
>
>    This is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF
>SLANG.  I found it on the above site.
>    Baseball has a bat, of course--not football.
>    Sometimes given as "queer/gay as a football bat."
>

The earliest example of this type I know of is the Latin adverb "ad
kalendas Graecas" ('at/on the Greek calends'), meaning 'never', as
the Greeks (unlike the Romans) did not use calends to reckon time.

larry horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 15:40:46 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:40:46 -0800
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 15, 2004, at 11:39 PM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
> 20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
> hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
> "crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

not at all new, but "(old) trolls" has been common among gay men for a
long time (for older gay men, where "older" might start at 40 or even
earlier).  a gay bar whose clientele is mostly trolls (the Midnight Sun
in the castro, for example) is sometimes known as a "wrinkle room", but
i've never heard "wrinklies" for trolls.  "gerries" is also new to me.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 15:50:01 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:50:01 EST
Subject: new saying
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:43 EST, Barry Popik via
LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU quotes:

> Yeah, we Broncs are a ...
>  bit.listserv.skeptic

I do not know why Broncs should be skeptical of listservs, but apparently
they are.

         - James A. Landau


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 17:10:45 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:10:45 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: <83AA4971-73BC-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, i noted that:

> ... some analogies are
> hugely more likely than others.  the analogies normally tap into the
> morphological regularities of the language.

and went to consider the past participle of a verb with base form
"stride" and past tense form "strode":

> ,,,once you've registered "strode" as the past tense form, there are
> then
> four possible analogies giving a past participle:
>
> 1.  pple = past + n: stroden (cf. weave - wove - woven)
> 2.  pple = pres + n: striden (cf. take - took - taken)
> 3.  pple = ablaut past: strode (cf. find - found - found)
> 4.  pple = special stem + n: stridden (cf. drive - drove - driven)
>
> the first three of these have relatively few exemplars, and no exemplar
> with /ay/ in the present and /o/ in the past (like "stride" -
> "strode").  only the fourth has any legs, and it rests on just four
> verbs with any great frequency...

this last bit is significantly wrong; i should have listened to my own
observation (above) about the importance of morphological regularities.
  the fact is that though item-by-item analogy does occur, a  great many
of the forms described as "analogical" are in fact just regularizations
-- the extension of morphological regularities to new items.

one of the great regularities in english verb forms is that the past
tense and past participle are usually identical; this is true for all
completely regular verbs and for a great many that exhibit various
subregularities or irregularities.  it follows that once you've
registered "strode" as the past tense, the expectation will be that the
past participle is also "strode".  so analogy #3 above should have *a
lot* going for it, even if there are no items with this pattern that
are phonologically similar to "stride".  (phonological similarity is
what gives some life to the item-by-item analogy in #4.)

analogy #3 is the one favored by michael quinion and john baker in
recent postings to the list, and they provide examples from printed
works and google searches to show that this option has often been
taken, indeed more often taken than #4 -- results that really shouldn't
be surprising, given the past/pastparticiple generalization.

(quinion notes that fowler and garner both recommend "stridden".  this
is not exactly a  surprise, since prescriptive grammarians have a
tendency to value irregularities over regular forms, probably on the
belief that irregular forms are usually older -- this is by no means
always the case, by the way -- and that the more regular forms are
*simplifications* of the historical system, simplifications resulting
from the failure of speakers to learn all the complexities of their
language.  that is, they tend to see regular forms as errors of
ignorance.)

baker mentions also the possibility of "strid".  the only way i can see
for past participle "strid" to arise is if the *past* of "stride" has
been reshaped to "strid" (perhaps on analogy to "hide" - "hid"); then,
by the past/pastparticiple generalization, the past participle should
follow along (or be "stridden", continuing the analogy with "hide").  i
believe that past "strid" is attested (i'm away from my sources right
now).  i *know* that past "chid" for "chide" is attested (in john
newton's 1779 text for a hymn in the Sacred Harp shapenote book i sing
from).  i suspect that there are even attestations for "rid" as the
past of "ride" and "driv" as the past of "drive", and perhaps others of
this very minor pattern.  you'd expect such occurrences to be rare, of
course -- and past participles showing this pattern to be even rarer,
since past participle forms are a lot less frequent than past forms,
period.

but let me emphasize again that this discussion isn't about what the
past participle of "stride" *ought to be*.  all of the following
patterns are certainly attested:
   stride - strided - strided
   stride - strode - strode
   stride - strode - stridden
and other patterns might also be attested.  if you've learned that the
past tense form is "strode", then essentially you're faced with a
competition between "strode" (which follows the past/pastparticiple
generalization) and "stridden" (which is supported by items
phonologically similar to "stride").  in the absence of clear models
from other speakers -- the verb is rare, past participles are rare, and
there is variation in the few instances you might hear -- you might
well just avoid the form entirely.  which is what lots of people do.
if you settle on "strode", that's fine.  if you settle on "stridden",
that's fine too.  maybe some day one or the other of these forms will
catch on and spread throughout parts of the english-speaking world, but
that hasn't happened yet.  (maybe "stride" will get completely
regularized.  that sort of thing has been known to happen.)  at the
moment, there are (at least) two alternatives, and many people are
comfortable with neither of them.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 18:47:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:47:06 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
Message-ID: 

from a poster on the newsgroup soc.motss, about the No Child Left
Behind act (in a thread named after my new granddaughter!):
   How whack is that?

this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
like the following, from google searches:
   Elite Force is totally whack.
   That night I had a really whack dream.
and by its ability to coordinate with adjectives:
   ...noticed how WHACK, CORNY, and OBVIOUS everybody is...

unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
this lexical item "whacked".)  the semantics of "whacked " is
presumably an extension from the contact-verb sense, perhaps influenced
by the phonologically similar "wacky" (which is itself probably
originally "whacky", possibly related to "out of whack"), and/or by the
slang "whacked out".  or maybe the adjective "whack" comes directly
from the noun "whack" of "out of whack" (presumably a nominalization of
the contact verb), though that wouldn't explain the fact that the
adjectives "whack" and "whacked" have almost the same range of meanings
and syntactic contexts.

(along the way i discovered the site urbandictionary.com, which bills
itself as "a slang dictionary with *your definitions*".  for "this is
whack", users had supplied the meanings "messed up, un[u]sual, more
fucked up than usual".)

some issues and observations:

1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
an unusual loss of final /t/.  well, yes, it follows a consonant, in
fact a stop, which is a high-frequency context for the famous
t/d-deletion.  but the /t/ loss would seem to have been lexicalized
here, and not in otherwise parallel forms  like "fucked": "That's
really fucked" might be pronounced in fast, casual speech without its
/t/, but i don't see any evidence of lexicalization here, in written
versions like "That's really fuck."

ok, lexicalization is often sporadic, and maybe that's all there is to
say here.

2.  a pretty large number of occurrences of adjective "whack" are in a
few formulas:
   That would be whack!
   How whack!
and the rhetorical question i started with above:
   How whack is that?

it *might* be that the adjective extended from a few fixed phrases like
these.  has anyone looked at its development, by dating occurrences?
(i have no idea how long it's been around, since i've just started
looking at it.)

3.  like a good colloquial adjective, "whack" has (unsuffixed)
adverbial uses:
   ...I realized how whack and wrong we did it...

there are a few occurrences of adverbial "whackly", both as a V(P)
adverbial --
   [rap]  ...you diss so whackly only reason ya lines go over my head
     is 'cause they miss so badly!!
   ...some whackly pronounced Japanese phrase you've picked up...
  and as a simply adadjectival modifier --
   ...wow 6flags yesterday was whackly insane...

i'll bet there are people with adjective "whack" who reject "whackly".
i myself am getting into "whack", but "whackly" is still out of range
for me.

4.  in fact, the adnominal uses of "whack" strike me as much less
felicitous than the predicative uses; the following attested examples
are something of a stretch for me:
   The kid went on a really whack trip; he thought he was doing something
     righteous and it all went awry...
   ...whoever lives here has a really whack sense of reality...

if the earliest uses of adjective "whack" were predicative, this would
make sense: people could pick it up only in predicative uses (there
are, after all, predicative-only adjectives), or they could extend it
to adnominal uses.  in which case, there should be people who accept
the predicative uses but not the adnominal ones (but not vice versa).

5.  "whack" can be predicated either of inanimates (circumstances,
situations, objects)  --
   ...know exactly how whack it is to be a "TURK".
   ...just how whack it is to smoke pot...
   ...how whack is that shit?
   Crack is whack.  [Whitney Houston]
   Why Psychology is Whack
or persons --
   ...any hypothesized claim on just how whack I am...
   ...we must be whack!

6.  i've found a few occurrences that don't seem to fit in the usual
semantic range for adjective "whack".  in particular, there are some
apparently positive uses, like the following, which seems to have been
intended as praise:
   ...Sunspot Jonz adds a really whack beat...

now, this could be semantic inversion (like "baaad' 'excellent').  or
it could be a separate "whack", related to the positive modifier
"whack-ass", as in:
   ...putting subscriptions in a really whack-ass folder...

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 18:56:05 2004
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:56:05 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20whack=20'whacked'?=
Message-ID: 

Is "whack" not the same as "wack," which has been common among
African-Americans for many years? There is a famous piece of graffiti art in Harlem that has
been in place for 20 years, that reads "Crack is wack."



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Mar 16 19:07:00 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:07:00 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <52E0A8DD-777A-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> like the following, from google searches:

Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
black America. Both spellings are still around.

--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, Lexical Reference
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Oxford University Press

American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Mar 16 19:53:23 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:53:23 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <1AAF23C4-777D-11D8-9D24-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:07:00PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
> On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> >this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> >language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> >note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> >like the following, from google searches:
>
> Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
> 1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
> black America. Both spellings are still around.

The famous Keith Haring "Crack is Wack" mural in Harlem,
which someone else mentioned, is from 1986. There's a
_wack_ in a 1986 Salt N Pepa song as well. I don't have
any materials handy but I'm pretty sure it's a few years
earlier still.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Mar 16 20:08:39 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:08:39 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

This seems like a variation on the theme of "queer as a three-dollar
bill."  I'd never heard it with substitutions such as "gay as a three-
dollar bill" or "fucked up as a three-dollar bill,"  though.

Joanne




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Mar 16 20:15:27 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:15:27 -0500
Subject: (Messed up/Queer/Gay as a) Football Bat (1990)
In-Reply-To: <40571877.2015.898DB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

Oops, sorry!  I meant to say "messed up."  Been watching too
many Sopranos episodes, I'm afraid.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Mar 16 21:09:32 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:09:32 -0800
Subject: polygotry
Message-ID: 

Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these arrangements are not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
Fritz Juengling

>>> RonButters at AOL.COM 03/15/04 06:53PM >>>
In a message dated 2/19/04 9:45:01 AM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Perhaps, but Mormons have not practiced polygamy (more specifically
> polygyny) in over a century.
>

Huh? Don't you read the newspapers? While it is true that the mainstream LDS
church has given up nonmonogamous marriages since the admission of Utah to the
Union, there are many people who consider themselves "Mormons," mostly living
in the Western states, who enter into more than one marriage at a time, they
just do it clandestinely. As I understand it, however, these marriages get no
support whatsoever from the Church, and there is no apparent movement of any
kind to change the present official policy.


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 22:09:18 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:09:18 -0500
Subject: ADS Sessions at MLA 2004
Message-ID: 

Dear Liz,

Send the ADS/MLA abstract to this address.  Many thanks in advance for your contribution.

Yours,

Michael


From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 16 22:12:29 2004
From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:12:29 -0500
Subject: Apologies
Message-ID: 

Sorry for the previous message, meant to be sent off list.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 16 23:32:54 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:32:54 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <20040316195323.GA10261@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:07:00PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 2004, at 13:47, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>>> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera
>>> of
>>> language change.  what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack"
>>> --
>>> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in
>>> examples
>>> like the following, from google searches:
>>
>> Yeah, it's an oldy, but it's still in use. The earliest cite I see is
>> 1987. Early cites are usually spelled "wack," and come from hip-hop or
>> black America. Both spellings are still around.

*very* much in use, and now by huge numbers of people who aren't
african american or particularly close to african american culture.

> The famous Keith Haring "Crack is Wack" mural in Harlem,
> which someone else mentioned, is from 1986. There's a
> _wack_ in a 1986 Salt N Pepa song as well. I don't have
> any materials handy but I'm pretty sure it's a few years
> earlier still.

well, these first responses, by grant barrett, steve boatti, and jesse
sheidlower at least suggest where to look for early occurrences.  my
questions about the details of the history and usage remain, of course.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 17 00:02:51 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:02:51 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
Message-ID: 

I could supply a 1984 article on NY break dancers, which lists some of their
lingo.  It's in Newspaperarchive.

"wack=bad"

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 01:35:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:35:29 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <52E0A8DD-777A-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
>derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
>slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
>with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>this lexical item "whacked".)

I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be that
this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
"stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the underlying
"jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate "wank[er]"
(originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The ultimate
etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]

The novelty might be the predicative use (as well as the loss of "off" ...
or is/was "whack" commonly used alone in some regions or milieux [like
"wank" apparently is in England])?

>1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
>an unusual loss of final /t/.

I would speculate that this /t/-loss did not occur, and that the earlier
version was "whack[off]" [adj.] = "jack-off" meaning roughly
"stupid"/"contemptible".

Just an idle thought.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:46:21 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:46:21 -0500
Subject: stridden
Message-ID: 

"Strode" has a certain poetic consonance -- a kind of vigor -- with the
image of striding that "stridden" totally lacks.
I don't think the authority of the /ride/ & /hide/ models can overcome the
inappropriate _feeling_ of "stridden."  "Stridden" suggests tripping along,
altogether the wrong image.
 A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 01:42:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:42:29 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>    Geriatrics?

I surely do believe so. The expanded form of this "gerry" is probably
"geriatric case".

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:46:41 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:46:41 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20whack=20'whacked'?=
Message-ID: 

On a hunch, I tried a Google search for "How suck is that?" 

I found three pages of solid examples.

Sample: "I like your attitude..
That war was an excuse for getting oil. I think Bush wanted to continue his 
father policy. How suck is that. I wonder why nobody had done anything with 
iraq for the last few years and all of a sudden a total nation comes up against 
it. USA is weird. But thats ok, My country isnt better.."


In a message dated 3/16/04 1:49:26 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> from a poster on the newsgroup soc.motss, about the No Child Left
> Behind act (in a thread named after my new granddaughter!):
> ?? How whack is that?
> 
> this was new to me, but then i often come in late to the great opera of
> language change.? what we have here is clearly an adjective "whack" --
> note modification by degree "how" here and by other adverbs in examples
> like the following, from google searches:
> ?? Elite Force is totally whack.
> ?? That night I had a really whack dream.
> and by its ability to coordinate with adjectives:
> ?? ...noticed how WHACK, CORNY, and OBVIOUS everybody is...
> 
> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.? (i was at least familiar with
> this lexical item "whacked".)? the semantics of "whacked " is
> presumably an extension from the contact-verb sense, perhaps influenced
> by the phonologically similar "wacky" (which is itself probably
> originally "whacky", possibly related to "out of whack"), and/or by the
> slang "whacked out".? or maybe the adjective "whack" comes directly
> from the noun "whack" of "out of whack" (presumably a nominalization of
> the contact verb), though that wouldn't explain the fact that the
> adjectives "whack" and "whacked" have almost the same range of meanings
> and syntactic contexts.
> 
> (along the way i discovered the site urbandictionary.com, which bills
> itself as "a slang dictionary with *your definitions*".? for "this is
> whack", users had supplied the meanings "messed up, un[u]sual, more
> fucked up than usual".)
> 
> some issues and observations:
> 
> 1.? if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
> an unusual loss of final /t/.? well, yes, it follows a consonant, in
> fact a stop, which is a high-frequency context for the famous
> t/d-deletion.? but the /t/ loss would seem to have been lexicalized
> here, and not in otherwise parallel forms? like "fucked": "That's
> really fucked" might be pronounced in fast, casual speech without its
> /t/, but i don't see any evidence of lexicalization here, in written
> versions like "That's really fuck."
> 
> ok, lexicalization is often sporadic, and maybe that's all there is to
> say here.
> 

> 2.? a pretty large number of occurrences of adjective "whack" are in a
> few formulas:
> ?? That would be whack!
> ?? How whack!
> and the rhetorical question i started with above:
> ?? How whack is that?
> 
> it *might* be that the adjective extended from a few fixed phrases like
> these.? has anyone looked at its development, by dating occurrences?
> (i have no idea how long it's been around, since i've just started
> looking at it.)
> 
> 3.? like a good colloquial adjective, "whack" has (unsuffixed)
> adverbial uses:
> ?? ...I realized how whack and wrong we did it...
> 
> there are a few occurrences of adverbial "whackly", both as a V(P)
> adverbial --
> ?? [rap]? ...you diss so whackly only reason ya lines go over my head
> ? ?? is 'cause they miss so badly!!
> ?? ...some whackly pronounced Japanese phrase you've picked up...
> ? and as a simply adadjectival modifier --
> ?? ...wow 6flags yesterday was whackly insane...
> 
> i'll bet there are people with adjective "whack" who reject "whackly".
> i myself am getting into "whack", but "whackly" is still out of range
> for me.
> 
> 4.? in fact, the adnominal uses of "whack" strike me as much less
> felicitous than the predicative uses; the following attested examples
> are something of a stretch for me:
> ?? The kid went on a really whack trip; he thought he was doing something
> ? ?? righteous and it all went awry...
> ?? ...whoever lives here has a really whack sense of reality...
> 
> if the earliest uses of adjective "whack" were predicative, this would
> make sense: people could pick it up only in predicative uses (there
> are, after all, predicative-only adjectives), or they could extend it
> to adnominal uses.? in which case, there should be people who accept
> the predicative uses but not the adnominal ones (but not vice versa).
> 
> 5.? "whack" can be predicated either of inanimates (circumstances,
> situations, objects)? --
> ?? ...know exactly how whack it is to be a "TURK".
> ?? ...just how whack it is to smoke pot...
> ?? ...how whack is that shit?
> ?? Crack is whack.? [Whitney Houston]
> ?? Why Psychology is Whack
> or persons --
> ?? ...any hypothesized claim on just how whack I am...
> ?? ...we must be whack!
> 
> 6.? i've found a few occurrences that don't seem to fit in the usual
> semantic range for adjective "whack".? in particular, there are some
> apparently positive uses, like the following, which seems to have been
> intended as praise:
> ?? ...Sunspot Jonz adds a really whack beat...
> 
> now, this could be semantic inversion (like "baaad' 'excellent').? or
> it could be a separate "whack", related to the positive modifier
> "whack-ass", as in:
> ?? ...putting subscriptions in a really whack-ass folder...
> 
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
> 
> 


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 01:54:46 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:54:46 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20polygotry?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/16/04 4:07:49 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these arrangements are
> not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
> Fritz Juengling
>

With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that people
cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:08:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:08:07 EST
Subject: Nerd (1954)
Message-ID: 

(OED)(revised December 2003)
nerd
slang (orig. U.S.). derogatory. [Origin uncertain and disputed (see below).
  Perh. < nerd, a fictional animal in the children's story If I ran the Zoo 
(1950) by ?Dr. Seuss?, depicted as a small, unkempt, humanoid creature with a 
large head and a comically disapproving expression. Alternatively, sometimes 
explained as a euphemistic alteration of TURD n. (see e.g. D. L. Gold in 
Comments on Etymol. (1983) 12 27), although given the predominance of early 
spellings in -e-, this seems unlikely. The suggestion that the word is back-slang for 
DRUNK n. is also unsupported by the spellings, as is derivation from the name 
of Mortimer Snerd, a dummy used by the U.S. ventriloquist Edgar Bergen in the 
1930s (see e.g. J. E. Lighter Hist. Dict. Amer. Slang (1977) s.v. Nerd).]     
An insignificant, foolish, or socially inept person; a person who is boringly 
conventional or studious. Now also: spec. a person who pursues an 
unfashionable or highly technical interest with obsessive or exclusive dedication. 
 
  1951 Newsweek 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip 
or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd. 1957 Sunday Mail (Glasgow) 10 Feb. 
11 Nerda square. 1971 Observer 23 May 36/3 Nerds are people who don't live 
meaningful lives. 1983 Truck & Bus Transportation July 129/1 When loose-brained 
nurds crack up the top arrangements of a man o' my calibre, I got no union t' 
thump them nurds with. 1993 Sci. Amer. Apr. 96/1 ?Nerd?..is movie shorthand for 
scientists, engineers and assorted technical types who play chess, perhaps, 
or the violin. 2002 Chicago Tribune 20 Jan. IV. 7/1 Among Silicon Valley nerds, 
chip engineers..are the geekiest of all.
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
  
   Another "nerd."
  
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 2/8/1954   
...it's stoned. And the same goes for the NERDS and oddballs who think is 
real cool for.....Sometimes one wonders where it will end. TEEN TALKS By VIVIAN 
BROWN AP Let's spin the.....boy is a cat. Cats who lack grey matter are NERDS 
or'oddballs. There's no better way to.....better get with it. Times are 
changing, and TEEN-aged slangsters are the first to let you..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, February 08, 1954  786 k    
Pg. 9, col. 5:
_TEEN TALKS_
   By VIVIAN BROWN
   AP Newsfeatures
(Same article as below--ed.)
  

Newport Daily News - 2/11/1954  
...it's stoned. And the same goes for the NERDS and oddballs who think 
"George" is real.....boy is a cat. Cats who lack grey matter are NERDS or oddballs. 
There's no better way to..
Newport, Rhode Island   Thursday, February 11, 1954  517 k        
_Lingo of Denver Teen-Agers Leaves_
_The Square Very Much In The Dark_
   _AP Newsfeatures_
Pg. 18, col. 1:
   And the same goes for the nerds and oddballs who think "George is real 
cool for "cool."
  
Pg. 18, col. 2::
   Cats who lack grey matter are nerds or oddballs.
   There's no better way to identify yourself as a nerd than be saying 
something is "George."  Cat, what you mean is "cool." 


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 02:12:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:12:35 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

How does one explain "dive/dove/dived"? [not my paradigm BTW]

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:16:28 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:16:28 EST
Subject: That is so dick!
Message-ID: 

Here are the results of a Google search for "That is so dick!"

"That is so fuck!" turned up only one example, and I couldn't read it because
the blog would not open.

==================
I can't interface with my friends when I want to vent, or when they want to,
and I can't return the favor. It costs me money and time, and that is so dick
of me. And thinking this way is making me cranky and emotionally unbalanced.
My social life has come to an absolute halt.

http://www.agendacide.com/minutes/archives/000495.php

==============================================================

love is suicide
     by myke on 04.05.02
... so, today is already awful... i like woke up thinking it was like 11 but
it was actually 8... i didn't want to get up that early... i really just
wanted to make this day as short as possible... i had one of "those" talks with
jenn last night and she basically made me want to cry... she's been leading me on
and i didn't know that's what she was doing... i was like "well why have you
been like constantly touching me and wanting to be all over me?" and all she
could say was just "i dunno, i just missed it"... that is so dick... and then i
got upset because jenn is heartless and didn't even care about what she had
done to me and i got mad and hung up on her and smashed my phone into a million
little pieces by throwing it on my balcony... i just wanted to cry but there
were people at my place last night so i just had to suck it up... well, no
sense sitting here feeling bad for myself... hopefully i'll be going out tonight
with this girl jamie... i guess we'll just play it by ear...

http://www.halfwaytheresucks.com/journal/03.htm

===============================================


2003-11-16 08:48:05


Joe the Asshole


Last night after my last entry, I went over to Becca's
place because I was bored and her and Joe asked to come
hang out over at my place so I said sure. And there was no
weirdness between Joe and I but I didn't want to think
about us having sex and long story short, I went to bed
and left those two out there and next thing I know, this
morning Becca is calling me saying that Joe left last
night when she was passed out and she had noticed that
last night he was in Patty's room (none of my roommates
are here this weekend) and he was looking through stuff.
So I'm mad Becca didn't say anything to him, but her
excuse was that she was just so drunk and this morning she
had to wake up early and walk home to take the Praxis
test. And so I went to Patty's room and noticed that Joe
had taken her bottle of Darvocets and that is so dick. ...

http://www.my-diary.org/read/body.phtml?entry=539532565

======================================================


Debbie: Was it too dirty for you, Q,
2002-08-10 - 9:44 p.m.

Hey All What's Up


I'm in Rochester, NY right now. I'm hanging out at my aunt's right now for a
few days and then I go back up to Buffalo.


Wizarped on Wednesday. I can't wait.


Yo as much as I love it here in NY, I can't wait to get back to Tally. So
much fun there.


Actually that's not the reason. Mary Beth will be back in Tally. It's weird
now. I never used to be like this. If I even start to think about I get all
sick to my stomach. Not in a bad way though. Like I miss seeing her kinda a way.
Ugghh this all sucks.


I think I need to ask her out before I give myself an ulcer or something.


Lets see. I'm trying to get high as all hell but, it is really not working.
Like it's not the first time I've ever smoked but, I smoked so much yesterday.
Like me and my friends did a blunt, like 5 joints, and 3 or 4 bowls and I
still got nada. They told me it was good stuff too. They said they were fucked up
but not me.


I felt a little something actually. I was sitting in this kids beanbag chair
next to his big ass speakers. For a while I felt a little like I was floating
on the vibrations but, that was minimal and thats the only out of ordinary
feeling I got.


Greg called me ball-less. Haha


Lol thats funny.


Yo lots o people have been coming to my website from gregs. I can check on my
sitemeter. Man greg you best hope nobody I know is comin over or I'll do ...


absolutly nothing. You could whoop me any day of the week. Plus I'm a
pacifist.


I watched this show that was like a reverse View. It had a ll guys talking.
They were talking about women and journals. One of the guys talks about how he
would read his wifes journal at all cost. I think that is so dick. ...

http://crazy-ol-tom.diaryland.com/020810_82.html

================================================


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar 17 02:26:50 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:26:50 -0800
Subject: polygotry
In-Reply-To: <200403161754.1b3qgO7II3NZFl50@vulture>
Message-ID: 

>...These people who practice these arrangements are
>  > not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to be.
>>  Fritz Juengling
>>
>
>With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that people
>cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.

Yeah, but it happens all the time.  This is where one has to take
control of how one is defined.  A most prominent example at the
moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.  Perhaps if more of the
"moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
would not be hijacked by the terrorists.

Rima


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 02:47:18 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:47:18 EST
Subject: linguistic tolerance
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/16/04 9:27:25 PM, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes:


> ... one has to take
> control of how one is defined.? A most prominent example at the
> moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.? Perhaps if more of the
> "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
> would not be hijacked by the terrorists.
> 
> Rima
> 
I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do, exactly, to 
"reclaim the name" of Islam; moreover, the idea of "reclaiming" a name that one 
has (in one's own view) never lost is not very attractive. In the end, it is 
not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior. 

It has always seemed to me an unhappy turn of events when self-proclaimed 
"Christians" make pronouncements that exclude other self-proclaimed Christians 
from the fold, rather than discussing the differences in beliefs that separate 
them. The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own use is a 
kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Wed Mar 17 03:28:17 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:28:17 -0600
Subject: linguistic tolerance
In-Reply-To: <200403170247.i2H2lRDV028595@relay4.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: 

Is this a reference to what I've just been noticing on the news the
last couple of days--the term"Islamists" being used to identify
(self-identify?) Muslim radical or extremist groups? Is this a new
usage? I haven't been paying attention.

Dennis

On Mar 16, 2004, at 8:47 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      linguistic tolerance
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 3/16/04 9:27:25 PM, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes:
>
>
>> ... one has to take
>> control of how one is defined.=A0 A most prominent example at the
>> moment is Islam - and who gets to define it.=A0 Perhaps if more of the
>> "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries would reclaim the name, Islam
>> would not be hijacked by the terrorists.
>> =20
>> Rima
>> =20
> I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do,
> exactly, to=20
> "reclaim the name" of Islam; moreover, the idea of "reclaiming" a name
> that=20=
> one=20
> has (in one's own view) never lost is not very attractive. In the end,
> it is=
> =20
> not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior.=20
>
> It has always seemed to me an unhappy turn of events when
> self-proclaimed=20
> "Christians" make pronouncements that exclude other self-proclaimed
> Christia=
> ns=20
> from the fold, rather than discussing the differences in beliefs that
> separa=
> te=20
> them. The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own
> use i=
> s a=20
> kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Mar 17 08:03:27 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:03:27 -0800
Subject: linguistic tolerance
In-Reply-To: <200403161847.1b3r5C1ET3NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: 

>...I don't understand what "moderate" Moslems are supposed to do,
>exactly, to=20
>"reclaim the name" of Islam

Disassociate themselves loudly, clearly, immediately from those who
are killing as many as possible in "their" name.  When David Koresh
had his group in Texas, no one thought they represented
"Christianity" as a whole.  Mainstream churches clearly disassociated
themselves from him and refused to let him define Christianity.
Muslims, by and large, did nothing similar.

>... In the end, it is=
>=20
>not the labels that are the issue, but the behavior.=20

Of course, but every group tries to define itself to the rest of the
world.  Every individual as well.  I'd be very upset if someone tried
to define me in terms I felt were untrue.

>...The attempt at appropritating language exclusively for one's own use i=
>s a=20
>kind of prescriptivism that I'm not comfortable with.

This is precisely what I'm saying - in a way.  If the huge majority
of Muslims do not agree with the definition (and behavior) put forth
by those Islamic terrorists, they should not allow that small
minority to define them.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 10:51:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:51:25 EST
Subject: "WYSIWYG" in Seybold obituary
Message-ID: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/business/16SEYB.html
John W. Seybold, 88, Innovator in Printing, Is Dead
By JOHN MARKOFF
Published: March 16, 2004
John W. Seybold, a pioneer in the field of computerized typesetting, which
transformed the publishing industry, died on Sunday at a hospice in Haverford,
Pa. He was 88.
(...)
In 1964 Rocappi produced the first computer-typeset product guide, an
automotive directory for McGraw-Hill. The project made heavy use of macros, programs
to simplify the repetitive creation of listings, an application that Mr.
Seybold pioneered.

The company created a pagination program that made it possible to control the
appearance of text on a printed page with software. The task had previously
been done manually by printers who worked with individual lines of typed text
formed from hot lead.

It was Mr. Seybold, according to his son Andrew, who first used "what you see
is what you get" in reference to computerized word processing, after watching
"The Flip Wilson Show," on which Mr. Wilson used the phrase to describe his
female character Geraldine.

The phrase came to be abbreviated as WYSIWYG and was popularized by computer
systems developed at the Palo Alto Research Center of Xerox in the early
1970's.

In 1971, with his son Jonathan, Mr. Seybold started The Seybold Report, an
industry newsletter appearing twice a month that became an authoritative
resource for the publishing industry.


(Maybe I'll look through it for WYSIWYG, which OED has from an April 1982
BYTE--ed.)


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 11:24:26 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:24:26 -0500
Subject: The Eruditor? [9 'yards! Essenes!]
Message-ID: 

Eruditio et Religio is the Duke University motto. The library here is getting
an integrated library system, which I guess is software that combines several
now-separate functions and expands options. What to name it? One suggestion:
The Eruditor. According to Lewis and Short Latin Dictionary, that's "an
instructor, teacher" in post-classical Latin (Tertullian, Jerome, Vulgate).
But I have some doubt it will be selected. So what to do with a once-useless
(sadly, not yet in OED) word? ads-l at .... I guess pronunciations would vary,
though imagine all who would become eruditer. Maybe that's the problem. Going
in too many directions: venerable? techyish? ...rude?

Thanks to Gerald Cohen, Sean Fitzpatrick et al. (though with the "all your
error are mine," or something, disclaimer) for help so far on full nine yards.
Some pretty-good researchers have looked: practically speaking, we can be
rather confident that the phrase did not predate the US Vietnam War. And, I
say, does not predate May 1966 when Officer Mole explicitly grouped the nine
tribes of Montagnards in I Corps area. Later that year, pilot "Smash"
Chandler, based at Danang in I Corps, is documented using the phrase. So, for
instance, Barry "that sound like it" Popik, you going to just let this go?
Why, with the right 1966 citation, I bet that NYT rag would lift its Big Apple
antedating embargo. Anyway, that's my story and--unless someone presents a
better-documented alternative--I'm sticking with it.

And again my main etymology question: anyone know a scholarly instance of
recognition that "Essenes" started with the Hebrew root 'asah before Johannes
Carion, Chronica, 1532?

best,
Stephen Goranson


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Mar 17 12:04:00 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:04:00 +0000
Subject: Islamist
Message-ID: 

Dennis Baron asked about _Islamist_:

The term is used in the UK often, and checking back into the BBC archives
it was used well before Sept 11.  (I can't tell you how far before, but I
got as far back as 1997).  It is in the names of various political
parties--at least as they are translated into English--and many of the
earlier citations I found were just using it as part of a name, but these
days it's used in general to refer to a certain kind of politicised Islamic
fundamentalism.

After Sept 11, I recall some overt discussion of the term in the news
media.  A quick search finds Salman Rushdie in the Guardian (3 Nov 2001)
writing:

'These Islamists - we must get used to this word, "Islamists", meaning
those who are engaged upon such political projects, and learn to
distinguish it from the more general, and politically neutral, "Muslim" -
include the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the bloodsoaked combatants of the
FIS and GIA in Algeria, the Shia revolutionaries of Iran, and the Taliban.'


You can see much more discussion of the term on the web if you put "word
Islamist" into Google.

Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
politicised Christian fundamentalism.  I've searched for that on Google and
most examples seem to use it as a neutral adjective (The Christianist Era),
but found an article on 'nationalistic christianism':


There's also a political editorial about 'islamist' (vs. 'christianist')
from a-Jazeerah at:




Cheers,
Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Wed Mar 17 12:07:48 2004
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:07:48 +1000
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: <200403170505.i2H55D1l004556@mailhub1.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Geoff

Well known in Australian English, together with about 2,000 others in
-ie/-y. Also in this semantic area oldies, the olds (not a car here),
grayie, oldster, crustie (an unkempt older person).

This formation is apparently spreading in the US - a colleague in
Texas tells me his daughter says she is using her "cellie".

Roly Sussex


>
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
>From:    Geoffrey Nunberg 
>Subject: "gerries" for old persons
>
>Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
>20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
>hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
>"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
>
>Geoff Nunberg
>

--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Mar 17 12:50:47 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:50:47 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I am such a gerrie that I thought Roly's US colleague's daughter was
referring to her cello (until the modern world caught up with me,
maybe only because I am acquainted with European handi/y).

dInIs (who hopes codgie and geezie will not follow)



Geoff

Well known in Australian English, together with about 2,000 others in
-ie/-y. Also in this semantic area oldies, the olds (not a car here),
grayie, oldster, crustie (an unkempt older person).

This formation is apparently spreading in the US - a colleague in
Texas tells me his daughter says she is using her "cellie".

Roly Sussex




Date:    Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:39:50 -0800
From:    Geoffrey Nunberg 
Subject: "gerries" for old persons

Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?

Geoff Nunberg


--

Roly Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Mar 17 12:56:11 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:56:11 -0500
Subject: polygotry
Message-ID: 

From:    RonButters at AOL.COM
: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes:

Discussing polygyny:

:: Uh, yes I read the papers. These people who practice these
:: arrangements are not Mormons, in spite of what they might claim to
:: be.

: With all due respect, I have a little trouble with the idea that
: people cannot label their religious beliefs however they wish.

And the church people generally think of upon hearing the phrase "Mormon
church" (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, based in Salt Lake
City, Utah) prefers, as an institution, *not* to be referred to as the
Mormon church (in addition, it seems to dislike the use of "Mormon" being
applied to polygynous groups): see
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4043-1---15-168,00.html

However, having taught at Brigham Young University, which that church runs,
and having been a member of that church for notably longer than that, it's
more complicated when you get to members of that church--some feel that
"Mormon" is perfectly acceptable (I'm one of those), while others feel that
it's most emphatically not (usually preferring "LDS", short for "Latter-day
Saints"). (I've long thought there's regional variation in this, but I'm not
quite sure how to do the sampling to investigate that.)

Moving to other Latter Day Saint Movement religions, some emphatically
reject the term "Mormon" while others use it freely; this is the case for
both polygynous *and* non-polygynous groups. So, for example, the Community
of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (both
non-polygynous, and yes, that second one's very different than the one in
the first paragraph) respectively reject and embrace the "Mormon" label,
while the "Mormon" label is accepted and rejected by polygynous groups such
as, respectively, the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times and
the Apostolic United Brethren.

But wait--to complicate matters further, Terry Lofthouse, a non-believing
member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, incorporated a
Mormon Church (that's its official name) a couple years ago after getting
annoyed at having people tell him "There's no 'Mormon Church'".

Like I wrote above, I like the term "Mormon"--it takes a lot less time to
say than most of the other names. However, if it's a context that requires
any precision at all that's not blindingly obvious from context, it's not
really a good term to use.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 13:12:16 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:12:16 -0600
Subject: Islamist
In-Reply-To: <200403171214.i2HCE9C27232@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Lynne Murphy wrote (much snipped):
> Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
> politicised Christian fundamentalism.

By way of comparison, there was a revolt by conservative Catholics in
Mexico in the 1920s; the rebels were known as "cristeros".

Jim Parish


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:16:34 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:16:34 -0800
Subject: stridden
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:46 PM, A. Murie wrote:

> "Strode" has a certain poetic consonance -- a kind of vigor -- with the
> image of striding that "stridden" totally lacks.
> I don't think the authority of the /ride/ & /hide/ models can overcome
> the
> inappropriate _feeling_ of "stridden."  "Stridden" suggests tripping
> along,
> altogether the wrong image.


ah, that would be the tense back /o/ of "strode" vs. the lax front /I/
of "stridden", plus the one syllable of "strode" vs. the two of
"stridden".  vowel quality and number of syllables together make
"strode" connotatively stronger, tougher, more masculine, as against
the weaker, sweeter, more feminine "stridden".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:48:56 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:48:56 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316201834.02f11af0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
>> which
>> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
>> its
>> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
>> eventually
>> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>> this lexical item "whacked".)
>
> I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be
> that
> this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
> analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
> "stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the
> underlying
> "jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate
> "wank[er]"
> (originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The
> ultimate
> etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]

NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
of unknown origin.

other masturbatory expressions are pretty clearly derived from verbs of
contact: beat off, toss (off), w(h)ack off, spank the monkey.

in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

on syntactic grounds, it looks hopeless.  first, there's the fact that
the early uses of the adjective are predicative, and it's hard to see
how verbs could end up in this function.  but let's look at adnominal
uses, assuming that somehow they're the earlier ones.  these sound
fishy to me if the "off" is preserved:
   ??This is a really whack-off party.  [*not* describing a masturbatory
gathering]
and there are no parallels, so far as i know, for other masturbatory
verbs, with or without the "off":
   ??This is a really beat(-off)/wank(-off)/jack(-off) party.

but if someone has citations for these sorts of things, i'll take doug
wilson's speculation more seriously.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 16:55:23 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:55:23 -0500
Subject: Islamist
In-Reply-To: <4057FA50.17473.B7D47C@localhost>
Message-ID: 

At 7:12 AM -0600 3/17/04, Jim Parish wrote:
>Lynne Murphy wrote (much snipped):
>>  Would be interesting to use _Christianist_ in the same way to refer to
>>  politicised Christian fundamentalism.
>
>By way of comparison, there was a revolt by conservative Catholics in
>Mexico in the 1920s; the rebels were known as "cristeros".
>

I've heard the English equivalent "Christer" used on occasion, but in
a slang register.  It's pejorative, unlike "Islamist" or, I assume,
"cristeros".  I believe it is used for holier-than-thou Christians,
the Pat Robertson type; not quite the same as the above meanings, but
overlapping with it.  I don't have my HDAS on me.  It is in the OED,
though:
===================
Christer        SECOND EDITION, 1989
U.S. slang
A term applied disparagingly to an over-zealous, over-pious, or
sanctimonious person.

1924 'W. FABIAN' Sailors' Wives vii. 90 You never were a Christer in
college. 1932 J. DOS PASSOS 1919 137 In spite of not drinking and
being somewhat of a Christer, having odd ideas about reform and
remedying abuses. 1934 H. MILLER Tropic of Cancer (1948) 81 It
doesn't matter to me whether he's a chauvinist, a little Christer, or
a near-sighted pedant. 1940 E. POUND Cantos lxi. 97 You Christers
wanna have foot on two boats. 1966 J. PHILIPS Wings of Madness (1967)
III. i. 172 I'm a Christer and do-gooder... I wasn't welcome.
===============
Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 17:20:05 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:20:05 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316201834.02f11af0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

Along the lines of these observations of Doug's, and Ron's
google-scouting of "really dick" etc., I checked "really wank", and
it too yields a plethora of pejorative uses of this type, presuambly
Brit counterparts of "really w(h)ack".   There are 197 google hits
for "really wank"; while some are irrelevant--'This isn't really
"wank writing" - it's too complex for that'-- most correspond to the
desired sense.)

larry horn


At 8:35 PM -0500 3/16/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"), which
>>derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>>almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in its
>>slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted', eventually
>>with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>>ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>>this lexical item "whacked".)
>
>I haven't looked into it very carefully, but my casual notion would be that
>this "wack" = "whack" is from "whack[off]" = "masturbate". Pretty much
>analogous development is seen in "jagoff" which is used like
>"stupid/contemptible [person]", often without perception of the underlying
>"jackoff" = "masturbate[r]". And the English presumed cognate "wank[er]"
>(originally "whank[er]", I think) has similar development. [The ultimate
>etymology of these is probably onanatopoeic, right?]
>
>The novelty might be the predicative use (as well as the loss of "off" ...
>or is/was "whack" commonly used alone in some regions or milieux [like
>"wank" apparently is in England])?
>
>>1.  if adjective "whack" is directly related to "whacked", then we have
>>an unusual loss of final /t/.
>
>I would speculate that this /t/-loss did not occur, and that the earlier
>version was "whack[off]" [adj.] = "jack-off" meaning roughly
>"stupid"/"contemptible".
>
>Just an idle thought.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Mar 17 17:52:28 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:52:28 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 08:48:56AM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
> extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
> 'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
> seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
> to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
> masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
> a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

Maybe this is too obvious, or someone mentioned it already when I
wasn't paying attention, but what about _wacky_ as a source?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Mar 17 18:39:20 2004
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:39:20 -0500
Subject: "gerries" for old persons
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I often heard "wrinklies" while living in England (1987-97).
Wendalyn Nichols

At 11:39 PM 3/15/04 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
>20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
>hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
>"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
>
>Geoff Nunberg


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 19:08:07 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:08:07 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <200403171649.ARQ41413@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:48 AM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> >> unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
> >> which
> >> derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
> >> almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
> >> its
> >> slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
> >> eventually
> >> with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
> >> ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
> >> this lexical item "whacked".)

The semantics doesn't work quite right, but the expression 'out of whack'
(off-kilter, not working right etc.) seems related here.  I don't think
anyone's suggested this connection yet.

Geoff


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 20:02:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:02:43 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040317135932.0272cbe8@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

>At 11:48 AM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>>On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>>  unlike the innovative adjective "fun" ("We had a very fun time"),
>>>>  which
>>>>  derives historically from a noun, the innovative adjective "whack" is
>>>>  almost surely derived historically from the verb form "whacked", in
>>>>  its
>>>>  slang sense 'messed up, fucked (up), screwed (up), twisted',
>>>>  eventually
>>>>  with a range of meanings going from the mild 'awry, out of the
>>>>  ordinary' to the stronger 'wrong, bad'.  (i was at least familiar with
>>>>  this lexical item "whacked".)
>
>The semantics doesn't work quite right

--given that "w(h)ack" would essentially equate to "out of whack".
Seems unlikely, although not impossible.  The OED sees "out of whack"
as being related to "wacky", so all semantic bets appear to be off,
if not out of whack.

Larry

>, but the expression 'out of whack'
>(off-kilter, not working right etc.) seems related here.  I don't think
>anyone's suggested this connection yet.
>
>Geoff


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 20:23:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:23:03 EST
Subject: "Second City" in OED
Message-ID: 

   "Second City" was added in the March 2004 OED update, just received.
   The first citation with Chicago is--1980?  1980????  (There are also 
numerous "Glasgow" "second city" cites before 1933.)
   No one read that I'd posted this to 1890?  That 1890 census made it 
official, but we have it a little earlier for Chicago on Newspaperarchive.
   Every single thing I do, every day, you have to repeat a million times for 
everyone, and even then you have to repeat it over and over for those same 
people, and then you have to remind them that you're doing this for free, and of 
course no one loves you...
  
  
(OED)
_second city_, n.
The second largest city in a particular country or region; (also) a city 
which is often regarded as the second most important in a country or region.
  Usually with in or of, except when second city (freq. with the and with 
capital initials in this context) has become something of a fixed name for a 
particular city within a given country, as, for example, Chicago (in the United 
States), Birmingham (in England), or Glasgow (in Scotland). 
 
  1621 J. REYNOLDS Triumphs Gods Revenge I. ii. 40 Pauia (the second City of 
the Dutchy of Millan). 1726 SWIFT Gulliver (1976) III. iii. 152 Lindalino, the 
second city in the kingdom, was the first his Majesty visited in his 
progress. 1801 C. B. BROWN Clara Howard xiii. 111 The second city in our country was 
familiar to my fancy by description. 1869 ?M. TWAIN? Innocents Abroad xxiv. 
253 She [sc. Pisa] has but one thing left to boast of, and that is not much, 
viz: she is the second city of Tuscany. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 449/2 The greatness 
of Aix was due to the latter [i.e. Charlemagne], who between 777 and 
786..raised the place to the rank of the second city of the Empire. 1933 Times 31 Jan. 
6/3 Our ?second city? [i.e. Glasgow] has placed its whole crop of Spanish 
graduates on the elementary reserve list of teachers. 1980 TWA Ambassador Oct. 
81/1 The influence of the Second City [i.e. Chicago] on the tenor as well as 
the direction of his workparticularly his booksis inestimable. 1997 Daily Tel. 
23 Apr. 6/5 Edgbaston is the home of the Second City's university, teaching 
hospital,..BBC studio and a substantial part of Brum's professional and 
managerial population.
 


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Weekly Republican - 6/7/1883    
...CHICAGO is now the third, and almost the SECOND, CITY in the Union, with 
respect to.....New York is the first, Boston the SECOND and CHICAGO the third, 
and Boston will.....Health of CHICAGO finds that houses iu that CITY contain 
an average of throe families.....at tho post office at Dccatur, Illinois us 
SECOND class mall matter. BISMARCK is to be..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, June 07, 1883  648 k    
       
Ohio Democrat - 8/26/1886   
...its population. In 1900 CHICAGO will be the SECOND CITY of the Western 
hemisphere, with.....last year of This makes CHICAGO the fourth CITY on the 
continent, New York, Brooklyn and.....BcUu-sdii Kneampment, I. O. O. Meets every 
SECOND and fourth Fridny of eui-1 mouth, ut.....masked. as they were to their 
heavily CHICAGO. A school census just completed at..
New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 26, 1886  1155 k    
       
Daily Herald - 2/21/1899    
...the site of Chicago. The land on which the SECOND CITY of the Union now 
stands was owned.....adpoted in other countries, this included. GLASGOW, 
Scotland, is occasionally referred.....to in American newspapers as a CITY that has 
demonstrated the success of.....possibility of government without taxation. 
GLASGOW has municipal ownership of its..
Delphos, Ohio Tuesday, February 21, 1899  971 k     
     
Olean Democrat - 7/18/1889  
...CHICAGO KUo of it Tort In A Town In 1837 A CITY in 184O. now claims to bo 
tho SECOND.....from the start, but CHICAGO is the only CITY which has enjoyed 
a "phenomenal growth.....nstrument somewhat like a xylophone, tho SECOND sings 
and the third plays a sort of.....South park. 10. Oakwoods cemetery. THE XEW 
CHICAGO. As CHICAGO previously covered 42..
Olean, New York   Thursday, July 18, 1889  913 k    
      
Newark Daily Advocate - 7/26/1889   
...provinces, CHICAGO claims to bo tho SECOND CITY of tho Union. Sho is 
absolutely.....and CHICAGO Div Ace. CHICAGO Fast Line. CHICAGO Express.... CHICAGO 
Mail and Es.....Whom it May Concern. BE it resolved by the CITY Council of the 
CITY of Newark, Ohio, two.....look after these sleepers, all holders of 
SECOND class Montana and Pacific coast..
Newark, Ohio Friday, July 26, 1889  1043 k      
     
Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1889    
...leads the former in population and is tho SECOND CITY in the United 
States. The.....than twelve or fourteen. RISES ALL THE CHICAGO SECOND. Sh Pninei 
Philadelphia in.....d4 l l For the best bargains in the CITY in Coal try the 
yards corner Locust and.....Littlo Eva, U, 12, 10, 0, S. Timo. ______ CHICAGO 
Winning Nugn. CHICAGO, August First..
Newark, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1889  843 k     
        
Herald Despatch - 3/29/1890     
...It gives relief at once. CHICAGO is ihe SECOND CITY of the Union. The 
proprietors of.....of tus death and was with trusts and the SECOND class are those 
of the of Missouri.....to visit the Star Chapter meeting at Farmer CITY 
to-night. .The famous but ghastly.....in millinery of Clinton, has gone to CHICAGO 
to work for some time in a wholesale..
Decatur, Illinois Saturday, March 29, 1890  694 k       
        
Indiana Gazette - 7/24/1890     
...now stated that CHICAGO, the World's Fair CITY, is the SECOND CITY in the 
'United.....are Cape May, Atlantic CITY, Sea Isle CITY or Ocean CITY, every 
one of which is a.....S Great Show will exhibit in Allegheny CITY on July 28. 
THE Street Commissioner is.....as4 accomplished young lady of that CITY. Will is 
nov; filling an engagement with..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1890  893 k    
     
Fort Wayne Sentinel - 8/8/1890  
...Sept. 1st. THE census makes CHICAGO the SECOND CITY iu point of population 
iu the.....the pay of supervisors in the First and SECOND Indiana districts, 
as the returns are.....which is to be held iu this CITY September 15th to 
20th, will bo of great.....Buffalo 10; Brooklyn 5, Philadelphia 4; CHICAGO 18, 
Clevelancl 4. National League..
Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, August 08, 1890  714 k      
        
Decatur Weekly Republican - 9/24/1891   
...of the lake, the garden CITY, the SECOND CITY in the United States, ana of 
her people.....it is the best CITY in the state outside of CHICAGO. I have 
only lived in Decatur 12.....Farmer CITY and Clinton lairs and SECOND nt the 
Bloornington fair. The horse.....challenge any CITY in Illinois, outside of 
CHICAGO, to make such a showing in the past..
Decatur, Illinois Thursday, September 24, 1891  555 k       
     
Daily Iowa State Press - 8/30/1900  
...of her faculties. "And now CHICAGO Is the-SECOND CITY in wealth and 
population on this.....which were adopted: The democrats of the SECOND Iowa district 
'in convention assembled.....and prompt manner, we also found the CITY 
governed, and the police: inti and.....bouse Wan. Tierney No. 507 Iowa Avenue. 
CHICAGO, Aug. The Grand Army of the Itopublic..
Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, August 30, 1900  944 k    
    


    
    


















 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 20:29:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:29:54 EST
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)
Message-ID: 

   "Three-dollar bill" was mentioned in the "football bat" discussion.
   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s+" for "three-dollar bill."
   Here's a quick check of Newspaperarchive.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Monessen Daily Independent - 6/4/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAve employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....LeAgue And Lou Oehrie in the AmericAn. BILL Terry.
Grimm; George Sisler And "nti.....mAnAged to tAke DAler moundsmAn, wAlked
THREE And struck out one. The PricedAle..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Thursday, June 04, 1942  785 k

Nevada State Journal - 6/7/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE-dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAve employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....to the ChicAgo trAcks won't Affect the two-dollAr
bettor A bit, The cAb fAre in this.....LeAgue And Lou Gehrig in the AmericAn.
BILL Terry, Grimm, George Sisler And until..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, June 07, 1942  690 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/3/1942
...long AS THREE seASons is AS rAre AS A THREE dollAr BILL. The men who operA
ted on long.....of the seASon. THREE of them hAvc employed THREE different men
And THREE hAve cAlled.....SchumAcher returned to form And outpifched BILL Lee
AS the GiAnts defeAted the Cubs, 5-1.....out 20 hits for A totAl oi 32 bASes
AgAinst THREE pitchers, Aldon Wilkie, Johnny LAnning..
Coshocton, Ohio Wednesday, June 03, 1942  768 k

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/16/1948
...demonstrAtion mAy be AS phoney AS A THREE-dollAr BILL but it mAy Also
continue for AS.....AS being unAmericAn, wAS the fAther of THREE World WAr II
veterAns, one of whom wAS.....brAn. Hunting And fishing Are multimillion-dollAr
businesses, topping All sports In.....Announced he would offer An Anti-lynching
BILL AS An Amendment to the OleomArgArine TAx..
Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, June 16, 1948  646 k

Traverse City Record Eagle - 6/4/1948
...in the first plAce wAS AS phoney AS A THREE dollAr BILL. PerhAps you think
you hAve no.....no sign of the picketing threAtened by the THREE rAilroAd
unions whose scheduled.....he wAS Almost in teArs. "I I meAnt it AS A greAt prA
ise." "It just seemed to hAve.....t be there. Mr, TrumAn wAS in high spirits AS
his trAin left WAShington's Union stAtion..
Traverse City, Michigan Friday, June 04, 1948  452 k


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 17 20:37:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:37:48 -0500
Subject: "Second City" in OED
In-Reply-To: <15d.30568e99.2d8a0da7@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:23 PM -0500 3/17/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    "Second City" was added in the March 2004 OED update, just received.
>    The first citation with Chicago is--1980?  1980????  (There are also
>numerous "Glasgow" "second city" cites before 1933.)
>    No one read that I'd posted this to 1890?  That 1890 census made it
>official, but we have it a little earlier for Chicago on Newspaperarchive.
>    Every single thing I do, every day, you have to repeat a million times for
>everyone, and even then you have to repeat it over and over for those same
>people, and then you have to remind them that you're doing this for
>free, and of
>course no one loves you...
>
>

Actually, none of the quotes below really instantiates "Second City"
= Chicago.  What we need is a context in which "Second City" is used
outside of a defining or identifying example, as in "The Second City
Comedy Troupe" or whatever it was called.  Crucially, it must be
presupposed, not asserted, that Chicago is the Second City.  I'm sure
such examples can be found that are closer in time to 1890 than to
1980, but the ones below ("Chicago is now the Second City") don't
really do it in my opinion, although the 1899 one comes close.

Larry Horn

>(OED)
>_second city_, n.
>The second largest city in a particular country or region; (also) a city
>which is often regarded as the second most important in a country or region.
>   Usually with in or of, except when second city (freq. with the and with
>capital initials in this context) has become something of a fixed name for a
>particular city within a given country, as, for example, Chicago (in
>the United
>States), Birmingham (in England), or Glasgow (in Scotland).
>
>   1621 J. REYNOLDS Triumphs Gods Revenge I. ii. 40 Pauia (the second City of
>the Dutchy of Millan). 1726 SWIFT Gulliver (1976) III. iii. 152 Lindalino, the
>second city in the kingdom, was the first his Majesty visited in his
>progress. 1801 C. B. BROWN Clara Howard xiii. 111 The second city in
>our country was
>familiar to my fancy by description. 1869 'M. TWAIN' Innocents Abroad xxiv.
>253 She [sc. Pisa] has but one thing left to boast of, and that is not much,
>viz: she is the second city of Tuscany. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 449/2
>The greatness
>of Aix was due to the latter [i.e. Charlemagne], who between 777 and
>786..raised the place to the rank of the second city of the Empire.
>1933 Times 31 Jan.
>6/3 Our 'second city' [i.e. Glasgow] has placed its whole crop of Spanish
>graduates on the elementary reserve list of teachers. 1980 TWA Ambassador Oct.
>81/1 The influence of the Second City [i.e. Chicago] on the tenor as well as
>the direction of his workparticularly his booksis inestimable. 1997 Daily Tel.
>23 Apr. 6/5 Edgbaston is the home of the Second City's university, teaching
>hospital,..BBC studio and a substantial part of Brum's professional and
>managerial population.
>
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Decatur Weekly Republican - 6/7/1883
>...CHICAGO is now the third, and almost the SECOND, CITY in the Union, with
>respect to.....New York is the first, Boston the SECOND and CHICAGO the third,
>and Boston will.....Health of CHICAGO finds that houses iu that CITY contain
>an average of throe families.....at tho post office at Dccatur, Illinois us
>SECOND class mall matter. BISMARCK is to be..
>Decatur, Illinois Thursday, June 07, 1883  648 k
>
>Ohio Democrat - 8/26/1886
>...its population. In 1900 CHICAGO will be the SECOND CITY of the Western
>hemisphere, with.....last year of This makes CHICAGO the fourth CITY on the
>continent, New York, Brooklyn and.....BcUu-sdii Kneampment, I. O. O.
>Meets every
>SECOND and fourth Fridny of eui-1 mouth, ut.....masked. as they were to their
>heavily CHICAGO. A school census just completed at..
>New Philadelphia, Ohio Thursday, August 26, 1886  1155 k
>
>Daily Herald - 2/21/1899
>...the site of Chicago. The land on which the SECOND CITY of the Union now
>stands was owned.....adpoted in other countries, this included. GLASGOW,
>Scotland, is occasionally referred.....to in American newspapers as
>a CITY that has
>demonstrated the success of.....possibility of government without taxation.
>GLASGOW has municipal ownership of its..
>Delphos, Ohio Tuesday, February 21, 1899  971 k
>
>Olean Democrat - 7/18/1889
>...CHICAGO KUo of it Tort In A Town In 1837 A CITY in 184O. now claims to bo
>tho SECOND.....from the start, but CHICAGO is the only CITY which has enjoyed
>a "phenomenal growth.....nstrument somewhat like a xylophone, tho SECOND sings
>and the third plays a sort of.....South park. 10. Oakwoods cemetery. THE XEW
>CHICAGO. As CHICAGO previously covered 42..
>Olean, New York   Thursday, July 18, 1889  913 k
>
>Newark Daily Advocate - 7/26/1889
>...provinces, CHICAGO claims to bo tho SECOND CITY of tho Union. Sho is
>absolutely.....and CHICAGO Div Ace. CHICAGO Fast Line. CHICAGO
>Express.... CHICAGO
>Mail and Es.....Whom it May Concern. BE it resolved by the CITY Council of the
>CITY of Newark, Ohio, two.....look after these sleepers, all holders of
>SECOND class Montana and Pacific coast..
>Newark, Ohio Friday, July 26, 1889  1043 k
>
>Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1889
>...leads the former in population and is tho SECOND CITY in the United
>States. The.....than twelve or fourteen. RISES ALL THE CHICAGO
>SECOND. Sh Pninei
>Philadelphia in.....d4 l l For the best bargains in the CITY in Coal try the
>yards corner Locust and.....Littlo Eva, U, 12, 10, 0, S. Timo. ______ CHICAGO
>Winning Nugn. CHICAGO, August First..
>Newark, Ohio Friday, August 02, 1889  843 k
>
>Herald Despatch - 3/29/1890
>...It gives relief at once. CHICAGO is ihe SECOND CITY of the Union. The
>proprietors of.....of tus death and was with trusts and the SECOND
>class are those
>of the of Missouri.....to visit the Star Chapter meeting at Farmer CITY
>to-night. .The famous but ghastly.....in millinery of Clinton, has
>gone to CHICAGO
>to work for some time in a wholesale..
>Decatur, Illinois Saturday, March 29, 1890  694 k
>
>Indiana Gazette - 7/24/1890
>...now stated that CHICAGO, the World's Fair CITY, is the SECOND CITY in the
>'United.....are Cape May, Atlantic CITY, Sea Isle CITY or Ocean CITY, every
>one of which is a.....S Great Show will exhibit in Allegheny CITY on July 28.
>THE Street Commissioner is.....as4 accomplished young lady of that
>CITY. Will is
>nov; filling an engagement with..
>Indiana, Pennsylvania Thursday, July 24, 1890  893 k
>
>Fort Wayne Sentinel - 8/8/1890
>...Sept. 1st. THE census makes CHICAGO the SECOND CITY iu point of population
>iu the.....the pay of supervisors in the First and SECOND Indiana districts,
>as the returns are.....which is to be held iu this CITY September 15th to
>20th, will bo of great.....Buffalo 10; Brooklyn 5, Philadelphia 4; CHICAGO 18,
>Clevelancl 4. National League..
>Fort Wayne, Indiana Friday, August 08, 1890  714 k
>
>Decatur Weekly Republican - 9/24/1891
>...of the lake, the garden CITY, the SECOND CITY in the United States, ana of
>her people.....it is the best CITY in the state outside of CHICAGO. I have
>only lived in Decatur 12.....Farmer CITY and Clinton lairs and SECOND nt the
>Bloornington fair. The horse.....challenge any CITY in Illinois, outside of
>CHICAGO, to make such a showing in the past..
>Decatur, Illinois Thursday, September 24, 1891  555 k
>
>Daily Iowa State Press - 8/30/1900
>...of her faculties. "And now CHICAGO Is the-SECOND CITY in wealth and
>population on this.....which were adopted: The democrats of the
>SECOND Iowa district
>'in convention assembled.....and prompt manner, we also found the CITY
>governed, and the police: inti and.....bouse Wan. Tierney No. 507 Iowa Avenue.
>CHICAGO, Aug. The Grand Army of the Itopublic..
>Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, August 30, 1900  944 k
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 17 23:28:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:28:57 -0500
Subject: Phony as a three dollar bill (1945)
Message-ID: 

   More three-dollar bills, from ProQuest Historical Newspapers.


Planes Dropped Phony Money to Japs as War Ended
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1945. p. 4 (1 page):
   Stage money--as phony as a three dollar bill--was one of the psychological weapons used by Allied forces in the closing days of the Japanese war.
   The "bills," one of which has been sent back to Washington, were scattered by American planes over Japan, urging widespread buying in order to deplete Japan's already-thinned stocks.
   Printed on the back of the bills was the admonition to Japanese:
   "What good is money in the bank or in bonds?  Buy articles you need now and buy articles for future use.  The remaining supply is low.  A wise person would buy now, not save his money.  The present is not a time for money.  It is a period for goods."


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 17 23:27:21 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:27:21 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
>"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
>of unknown origin.

Of course you're never provably wrong in choosing "unknown origin". I doubt
"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
off", "tom off", "joe off"?); I suspect "jack" is basically like "jack up
the car to change the tire" (if there's any documentary evidence, of
course, that trumps my idle notions).

>in any case, it *is* true that references to masturbation tend to
>extend their meanings to cover 'inconsequential', 'worthless',
>'contemptible'.  but the meanings of adjective "w(h)ack" that i'm
>seeing extend out from 'out of kilter, messed up' -- cf. "w(h)acko" --
>to 'wrong, bad', and so just barely overlap with the semantics of the
>masturbatory expressions.  on semantic grounds, "w(h)ack (off)" is not
>a very likely source for adjective "w(h)ack".

I would speculate that "wack"/"whack" went its own way and the earlier form
was forgotten ... whether it was "whack-off", "wacky", or "whacked", or
even "out of whack". One would want to examine the earliest uses (I don't
have them handy).

>on syntactic grounds, it looks hopeless.  first, there's the fact that
>the early uses of the adjective are predicative, and it's hard to see
>how verbs could end up in this function.

Is it really certain that the early use was predicative? Searching Google
groups, I find "wack ideas" earlier than "that's wack" (1992 vs. 1994) ...
of course the material is sparse in the early days and I'm sure this was
around in the 1980's.

Again I would suppose that the predicative use arose after "wack" began its
independent adnominal career.

>   but let's look at adnominal
>uses, assuming that somehow they're the earlier ones.  these sound
>fishy to me if the "off" is preserved:
>   ??This is a really whack-off party.  [*not* describing a masturbatory
>gathering]
>and there are no parallels, so far as i know, for other masturbatory
>verbs, with or without the "off":
>   ??This is a really beat(-off)/wank(-off)/jack(-off) party.

The earliest application might have been "whackoff friends/ideas" (I've
surely heard the equivalents with "jackoff") > "wack friends/ideas", and
after this "wack" would go its own way, interpreted (by anybody who
happened to think about the matter) as presumably a derivative of "wacky"
or something else.

This is only a plausibility argument: I am not religiously attached to this
notion; I present it as one of several possibilities.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 18 00:05:35 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:05:35 -0500
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)
Message-ID: 

I'm truly amazed that an expression using "three dollar bill" in a manner
that implied phoney, rare, queer or anything else doesn't appear in the
popular press until 1948.

Three dollar banknotes were not uncommon in the pre-Civil War days in the
US, but when the Federal government starting isssuing banknotes in 1862,
that was the end of private notes.  The Feds never printed a $3.

So, why did it take until 1948 to say that something was as
phoney/queer/rare/strange as a three dollar bill?

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Three-dollar bill (1948)


>    "Three-dollar bill" was mentioned in the "football bat" discussion.

> Edwardsville Intelligencer - 6/16/1948
> ...demonstrAtion mAy be AS phoney AS A THREE-dollAr BILL but it mAy Also
> continue for AS.....AS being unAmericAn, wAS the fAther of THREE World WAr
II
> veterAns, one of whom wAS.....brAn. Hunting And fishing Are
multimillion-dollAr
> businesses, topping All sports In.....Announced he would offer An
Anti-lynching
> BILL AS An Amendment to the OleomArgArine TAx..
> Edwardsville, Illinois Wednesday, June 16, 1948  646 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 00:09:44 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:09:44 -0500
Subject: Times Square (17 March 1904); Curry Hill (1995)
Message-ID: 

TIMES SQUARE

TIMES SQUARE--1,110,000 Google hits, 63,800 Google Groups hits

   It's 100 years old.  A NYT "city section" article appeared last Sunday.
   OED has no specific "Times Square" entry.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
TIMES TRIANGLE, TIMES SQUARE; New Names for Long Acre Square Suggested by a Reader of This Newspaper.
J.W.C. CORBUSIER.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 23, 1904. p. 8 (1 page):
_To the Editor of The New York TImes:_
   When the new building of THE NEW YORK TIMES shall be completed and become a thing of art and beauty in that section of the city in which it is to stand, why would it not be fitting that the space about the edifice be called "Times Triangle," or "Times Square," although perhaps it may not be a square?
   It is, it seems, more euphonious than "Long Acre Square," and very soon would become as well known as "Printing House Square" or "Herald Square."
   No doubt the Board of Aldermen would take up such a suggestion at the proper time and act upon it favorably.  Can it not be entertained?
   J. W. C. CORBUSIER.
New York, March 17, 1904.

RAPID TRANSIT BILLS PROBABLY WILL PASS; Commission Hears Counsels' Report on Measures in Senate. TIMES SQUARE" IS URGED President Belmont Would Have Another Name for the Junction at Forty-second Street.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 25, 1904. p. 2 (1 page)

TO BE CALLED TIMES SQUARE.; Aldermen Vote to Rename Long Acre Square, Site of New Times Building.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 6, 1904. p. 1 (1 page)

TIMES SQUARE.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1904. p. 8 (1 page)

Times Square, the Name of City's New Centre.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 1904. p. 2 (1 page)

---------------------------------------------------------------
CURRY HILL

CURRY HILL + NY--249 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
CURRY HILL + NEW YORK--438 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits

   I like these cheap Indian restaurants and the name "Curry Hill," similar to "Murray Hill."  Robert Sietsema uses the name a lot.


(FACTIVA)
CHOICES
WESTWARD HO!
Robert Sietsema
686 words
6 February 1996
The Village Voice
15
English
(Copyright 1996 V V Publishing Company)

Traditionally, Manhattan's best inexpensive Indian restaurants have been concentrated in Murray Hill along lower Lex, in a neighborhood waggishly known as Curry Hill. The prices are similar to the cheaper joints on East 6th, but the Lexington Avenue places have the paradoxical advantage of serving from steam tables--meaning that the food is fast, and, more important, you can see it before you order. My favorite has always been East in the West (113 Lexington Avenue), where you get a doormat-size nan in addition to rice, raita, salad, and three steam-table selections for around $5.


(PROQUEST)
The Curry Hill scene
Pais, Arthur J.. India in New York. New York, N.Y.:  Aug 8, 2003. Vol. VI, Iss. 5;  pg. 22
Some of the better restaurants on Curry Hill (also known as Little India, on Lexington, between 26 and 31 Streets) that serve very good dishes under $10. Many of the restaurants also serve buffet.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (New York Times)
1. Onward and Upward on Curry Hill; Neighborhood's New Prosperity Draws Some Wistfulness
By STEPHEN SIGMUND. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 17, 1999. p. CY15 (1 page)

2. Kosher Curry and Kashruth Kebabs
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1995. p. CY1 (1 page)

3. Scratching a Niche: Kebabs, Curries . . . and It's All Kosher
SANDEEP JUNNARKAR. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1995. p. CY6 (1 page)
Abstract (Article Summary)
There are more than 12 Indian restaurants to choose from along the two-block stretch of Lexington Avenue between 27th and 29th Streets known by some as Little India, by others as Curry Hill. The competition is fierce. Curbs along the strip look like taxi stands, jammed by South Asian drivers who flock to the area for spicy kebabs and pungent curries.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Share available 5/15
Looking for someone to share in a three bedroom apartment on the upper
twenties on the East side (I call it "Curry Hill"). Currently ...
nyc.market.housing - Apr 23, 1996 by Vincent Lai - View Thread (1 article)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 01:09:42 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:09:42 -0500
Subject: Tarte Tatin (1898)
Message-ID: 

TARTE TATIN--27,500 Google hits, 2,300 Google Groups hits

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/dining/17CHEE.html
Cheesecake is one of those quintessential New York foodstuffs that in some circles is thought of as unsophisticated. Certainly its name does not roll off the tongue like tiramis?, or tarte Tatin.

   OED has...well, it doesn't have "tarte Tatin."
   It's not much of a secret that this dish is about 100 years old.


(GOOGLE)(This site declares: "1898-1998  100 ans de Tarte Tatin a Lamotte-Beuvron")
Tarte Tatin - Le Site Officiel de la Tarte Tatin - - [ Translate this page ]
La confrerie des lichonneux de Tarte Tatin vous pr?sente : Le
Site Officiel de la Tarte Tatin. CLIQUEZ ICI POUR ENTRER. ...
Description: La confr?rie des lichonneux de Tarte Tatin pr?sente la sp?cialit? de Lamotte-Beuvron due aux soeurs...
Category: World > Fran?ais > Maison > Cuisine > Desserts
www.tarte-tatin.com/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(First CSM hit)
   Elegant French apples
Special to The Christian Science MonitorM. de M.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 21, 1970. p. B10 (1 page):
   Pierre Balmain was born in the Haute Savoire, region of so many fine cheeses, and he agrees with the old French proverb that "a meal without cheese is like a beautiful woman with only one eye."
   Pierre's favorite dessert is "Tarte Tatin," a famous old French variation of apple pie named for the Tatin sisters.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (First Washington Post hit)
   OPEN-FACED APPLE PIE; New-Fashioned Apple Pie
By Carol Cutler. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 9, 1972. p. K1 (2 pages)
First Page:  The French regions of Normandy, where apple orchards abound, and the Cologne, a hunter's paradise, both claim to be the home of _Tarte des Demoiselles Tatin_, an upside-down carmelized apple pie.  Both stories claim that the young Tatin sisters helped run the family's country inn and invented this novel pie to delight their patrons.
   Wherever it came from, it's a delicious pie that takes on a special, tangy flavor from the caramel.


(PROQEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(First NYT hit)
Display Ad.(3)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 14, 1969. p. 2 (1 page)
"TARTE TATIN WITHOUT CREME FRAICHE", commented our chef, "IS LIKE A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN WITHOUT A SOUL."
So each week, where the grass grows sweet at the French village of Isigny, we take the cream of the cream from the fattest cows and jet it here.  For without the cream of Isigny, there would be no Tarte Tatin at L'Etoile.
L'ETOILE
At Fifth Avenue and 52nd St.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (No LA Times hit through 1957)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tarte Tatin :
more of la belle vie on Rue Tatin /
Author: Loomis, Susan Herrmann.
Publication: London : HarperCollins, 2003
Document: English : Book
Libraries Worldwide: 2

2.  La tarte tatin :
100 ans au service du go?t /
Author: Moissac, Patrick.
Publication: La Fert? Saint Aubin : Archer, 1998
Document: French : Book
Libraries Worldwide: 2


(OT:  I'm looking for a beautiful woman with both eyes and a soul and cheese and tarte Tatin and creme fraiche, but not in that order--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Mar 18 02:08:47 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:08:47 -0600
Subject: Why "drunk as a boiled owl"? (was: Boiled owl (1861);...)
Message-ID: 

At 11:58 PM -0500 3/15/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>     Drunk as a boiled owl?
>     Why?  Why an owl?  Why a boiled owl?
>
>


  A partial answer is that the owl's glassy stare is likened to the
glassy stare of a drunk. That explains the owl.  Why boiled? I can
only guess that owls, as omens of death and disaster, were subjected
to cruelty, perhaps being boiled alive. Cf. the mistreatment of cats
in the Middle Ages (for supposedly being devils).

    If the wide-eyed look of a healthy owl is perceived as a glassy
stare, what must that look be as the owl is being boiled alive?

Gerald Cohen
P.S. I had never previously heard of "boiled" (drunk). I've heard
"stewed" and "pickled," although I've never understood their
rationale.



>http://www.hallowfreaks.com/text/superstitons2.html
>
>Owls - Lore tells that owls ate the souls of the dying by swooping
>to earth on Halloween. Owl screeches and their glassy stare are said
>to be an omen of death and disaster.




>http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=438

The Wordwizard Clubhouse
Boiled as an owl

I have searched various sources including this site, but can't seem
to find anything relating to this. Help, anyone?

...

Response from Charles Becker (Murray KY - U.S.A.)


On the phrase "pickled as an owl," Word Detective (30 Sep 1998) says:

... but the choice of an owl may have been in reference to the
perceived similarity of an owl's wide gaze to a drunk's glassy stare.


>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 02:51:36 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:51:36 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040317180133.02f0c540@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>>NSOED2 thinks "jack (off)" 'masturbate' is a development from the noun
>>"jack" 'man', itself from the proper name.  it thinks "wank (off)" is
>>of unknown origin.
>
>Of course you're never provably wrong in choosing "unknown origin". I doubt
>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>off", "tom off", "joe off"?); I suspect "jack" is basically like "jack up
>the car to change the tire" (if there's any documentary evidence, of
>course, that trumps my idle notions).
>

I was wondering whether "jack off" might have originated as an
alteration of "jerk off", where the meaning appears to be derived
from the motion involved, but while HDAS suggests the two are indeed
alternants, the former does have a slightly longer pedigree, and the
OED clearly assumes "jack off" does indeed originate as Doug
suggests--not with car tires so much as the jacking (up) of large
objects in general, which predated horseless carriages as such.
Train cars could be jacked up, for example:

1885 Pall Mall G. 20 Mar. 6/1 To 'jack-up' a seven-ton engine and
replace it on the rails.

and the same general entry that gives this as the first sense (JACK,
v. 1) gives "jack off" under sense 5, with an apposite quote from
Orwell, albeit postdating HDAS's first cite [from a venery lexicon]
by 19 years:

1935 'G. ORWELL' Clergyman's Daughter ii. 109 Flo and Charlie would
probably 'jack off' if they got the chance of a lift.

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 03:00:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:00:45 -0500
Subject: Hot and Sour (1931, 1964)
Message-ID: 

HOT AND SOUR SOUP--19,600 Google hits, 4,320 Google Groups hits

   OED has...well, it doesn't have "hot and sour soup."  It doesn't even have "hot and sour."
   I might go to a lecture of the NY Culinary Historians by someone from FLAVOR AND FORTUNE magazine.  The F&F people probably contributed an entry on this to the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, but here are the ProQuest database results.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Display Ad 64 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 17, 1931. p. 26 (1 page):
  _Chutnies_
(...)  From sweet to hot and sour...with mangoes...Tirhoot...tamarinds...fruity!

   How to Solve an Oriental Eating Puzzle; Learn Chinese, Adopt a Relative, or Get to Know the Waiter
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 21, 1964. p. 20 (1 page):
   It is fascinating to note how many travelers return from their gastronomic tours of Europe with a surfeir of la grande cuisine and a haunting hunger for the simplicity of a hot and sour or wonton soup, Peking duck or a quick saute of Chinese-style vegetables and meat.

   Feasting, Chinese Style; Chinese Feast
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 12, 1965. p. SM90 (2 pages)
FIRST PAGE:  HOT AND SOUR SOUP
(Recipe--ed.)

   Dining Out in the City
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1966. p. 43 (1 page:
   Lotus Eaters Fifth, 182 Fifth Avenue (between 22d and 23d Streets),...
   There are numerous insidiously good dishes such as a delectable pork ball and spinach soup; hot and sour soup; chicken with special sauce (a thin soy sauce with scallions and ginger); ginger-flavored shrimp, and spiced shredded chicken.

   Special Indeed Is the Empress
By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Dec 17, 1967. p. K8 (1 page)  :
   At lunch one day I found the wonton soup unexceptional, but a hot and sour soup tasted in the evening was alive with flavor and zip.

   Relief May Be in Sight For Those Who Suffer From Chinese Cooking; Monosodium Glutamate Zeroed In on by Some Scientists As Cause of Mysterious Malady
By EARL C. GOTTSCHALK JR. Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 11, 1968. p. 20 (1 page):
   The researchers said they ate Chinese food for beakfast, lunch and dinner "with the enthusiastic cooperation of the Shanghai Cafe," until the search had been narrowed to either hot and sour soup or wonton soup.

   Two Chinese dishes to try at home; A savory appetizer and a peppery soup Pot Stickers Hot and Sour Soup
By Lou Seibert Pappas Special to The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Mar 9, 1978. p. 19 (1 page)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 03:37:48 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:37:48 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"gerries"=20for=20o?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ld=20persons?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/17/04 1:36:25 PM, wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM writes:


> I often heard "wrinklies" while living in England (1987-97).
> Wendalyn Nichols
>
> At 11:39 PM 3/15/04 -0800, you wrote:
> >Does anyone know anything about this word? I heard it used by the
> >20-something son of a friend, and Google turns up some hits, but it's
> >hard to tell what its status is. It also turns up "wrinklies" and
> >"crumble" -- are there other new items of this type?
> >
> >Geoff Nunberg
>
>

As I recall, the novel CLOCKWORK ORANGE used a made-up term based on Russian:
old people were called Starries. I always liked that.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 04:19:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:19:20 -0500
Subject: Pandoro (1950); Chicken Tenders (1984, 1986)
Message-ID: 

PANDORO

PANDORO--24,000 Google hits, 4,460 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Anyone heard of "pandoro"?
... baking molds". The photo that matched it said "Pandoro mold". It looks ... recipe
is Italian, too. Does Pandoro ring a bell out there? Fran
rec.food.cooking - Mar 9, 2004 by Franfogel - View Thread (9 articles)

   I was doing a regular browse of rec.food.cooking when I spotted the above.
   OED has...well, it doesn't have "pandoro."  OED IS ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE ON FOOD!


(GOOGLE)
Panettone & Pandoro
Metal, glass and disposable molds for Pandoro and Panettone, old traditional
Italian Favorites. Panettone and Pandoro. One of America's ...
fantes.com/panettone_pandoro.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

Pandoro and Panettone cakes (Breads)
It just isn't Christmas in Italy without a Pandoro or Panettone Christams
cake. Christmas in Italy is rich in traditions. In most ...
www.cookingwithpatty.com/Italian/Pandoro/index.php - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Article 10 -- No Title
By JANE NICKERSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24, 1950. p. 94 (1 page):
   Genoese eat Genoa-style panettone; Milanese, Milan-style, and SIenese, pan-forter--"really a very hard cake of honey and nuts."  Pandoro--golden bread--is light and yellow, done with lots of eggs; this is savored by the Veronese.

   Food News: Shops Offer Yule Pastry; Oddest of All
By JUNE OWEN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1957. p. 47 (1 page):
   Panettone, the sweet, yeast-dough bread with eggs, white raisins and chopped citron, is another Italian Christmas sweet baked at Bellardi & Stasi.  Canepa Brothers, 150 Sullivan Street, has the panettone, which is Milanese, and also Genoese pandolce (no eggs but many pignolia nuts and a heavier texture) and Venetian pandoro (butter and eggs but no ctiron or raisins).  All are 80 cents a pound.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHICKEN TENDERS

CHICKEN TENDERS--43,600 Google hits, 1,830 Google Groups hits

   Everyone knows that "chicken tenders" was coined by Burger King in 1986 to combat "Chicken McNuggets."
   However, I checked it out.  A Washington, DC restaurant served "chicken tenders" in 1984, before the Burger King product.
   Is "chicken tenders" now generic?


(FACTIVA)
THE REVIEWS
16,062 words
23 September 1984
The Washington Post
(...)
-- RZ HOUSTON'S
1065 Wisconsin Ave. NW.
338-7760. L $5.25-$10.95, D $5.25-10.95. L, D daily. AE,
MC, V. Full bar.

Houston's is a spiffy-looking, brick-walled pub and restaurant with reasonable prices, warm, accommodating service and a simple menu that offers reliably good food -- adequate burgers, lean and meaty ribs, light and boneless fried chicken ("chicken tenders"), and a good prime-rib-with- salad a bargain at $10.95. The menu offers just two desserts, a cobbler and a brownie, but they're tops. The bad news is that there can be lots of standing and waiting for tables -- wear comfortable shoes.


(FACTIVA)
Richman on Restaurants
1,267 words
17 February 1985
The Washington Post
W30
(...)
If barbecue isn't your bag, consider chicken tenders (available in appetizer and entree portions), strips of succulent white meat well fried in a golden-light, crusty batter.


(FACTIVA)
McDonald's, Burger King play chicken
Nancy Millman
715 words
28 February 1986
Chicago Sun-Times
FIVE STAR SPORTS FINAL
44

Although its competitors were expecting Burger King to move its answer to Chicken McNuggets into national distribution next month, the Miami-based fast-food chain says it is not yet ready to roll.

Chicken Tenders, as the Burger King item is called, is still in test market in the chain's hometown of Miami, as well as Norfolk, Va., and Boston.

"We're looking for a late spring or early summer expansion if we do go national with the product," a company spokeswoman said.

The test marketing covers 140 stores, and is being conducted without any advertising support.

Chicken McNuggets have been an extremely successful item for McDonald's, which quickly expanded the breaded chicken pieces into its stores in Canada and Japan.

Look for Burger King to go for a quality sales message against McDonald's when it does blast Chicken Tenders into the marketplace with a major ad campaign.

Remember the "Parts is parts" commercials Wendy's used to differentiate its chicken breast sandwich from the competitors' products?

Burger King is stressing the 100 percent breast meat content of its chicken pieces. In the test markets, Chicken Tenders are selling for $1.59 for 6 pieces. Chicago McDonald's prices for Chicken McNuggets are comparable.

The aggressive advertising stance that Burger King took to launch the battle of the burgers - broiling vs. frying - may show up again this year but the subject will be vegetable oil vs. animal fat.

The No. 2 hamburger chain is making a play toward the health and calorie-consciousness of American families by changing its frying formula.

New Chicken Tenders will be fried in 100 percent vegetable oil, as will all fried products with the exception of potatoes beginning March 1. (...)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HOUSTON'S; 1065 Wisconsin Ave. NW. 338-7760. L $5.25-$10.95, D $5.25-10.95. L, D daily. AE, MC, V. Full bar.
MGB. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 23, 1984. p. 267 (1 page)
(It's here, but the original page is shown, with small type.  See FACTIVA--ed.)

   Richman on Restaurants; HOUSTON'S
Mark and Gail Barnett. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 24, 1985. p. SM24 (2 pages)


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark CHICKEN TENDERS
Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: chicken pieces. FIRST USE: 19851128. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860330
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74171806
Filing Date May 31, 1991
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition April 7, 1992
Registration Number 1785694
Registration Date August 3, 1993
Owner (REGISTRANT) Burger King Corporation CORPORATION FLORIDA 17777 Old Cutler Road Miami FLORIDA 33157
(LAST LISTED OWNER) BURGER KING BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT DELAWARE THE WATERFORD BLDG. 5505 BLUE LAGOON DRIVE MIAMI FLORIDA 33126
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record JAMES M PACIOUS
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CHICKEN" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20030812.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20030812
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark ABNER'S "FAMOUS CHICKEN TENDERS"
Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: T-shirts, baseball caps. FIRST USE: 19930125. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930125
IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant services providing chicken and other foods complimenting chicken and drinks. FIRST USE: 19930125. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930125
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 260307
Serial Number 75165868
Filing Date September 13, 1996
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition July 29, 1997
Registration Number 2106906
Registration Date October 21, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) White, James Abner INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 430 South Lamar Oxford MISSISSIPPI 38655
Attorney of Record PAIGE B RAYBURN
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "FAMOUS CHICKEN TENDERS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark THE ROCKIN' CHICKEN TENDERS AND BUFFALO WINGS
Goods and Services IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: restaurant services
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78231789
Filing Date March 31, 2003
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition February 17, 2004
Owner (APPLICANT) Casa Holdings, LLC CORPORATION ALABAMA 2105 Drake Avenue Hunstville ALABAMA 35805
Attorney of Record Kimberly Till Powell
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "CHICKEN TENDERS AND BUFFALO WINGS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Thu Mar 18 02:31:29 2004
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:31:29 -0500
Subject: Whack
Message-ID: 

Regarding "crack is whack," I remember hearing it in New York City during
the anti-crack campaign years of the mid-1980s. The speaker was a recent
college grad who had entered publishing.

And just this morning I overheard a Manhattan security guard offer another
usage of "whack" to refer to a white woman "who thinks she's black."

Here's a related online usage from 1999:
http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-3B56-16E0D62B-384592A5-prod1

David


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 04:59:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:59:13 -0500
Subject: Vigoron (1988)
Message-ID: 

VIGORON + NICARAGUA--389 Google hits,38 Google Groups hits

   "Vigoron" is a national dish of Nicaragua.  I didn't see it at all in Panama.
   OED has...well, it's not in OED.
  Last one before library closing...No connection to the Viagra-like drug.


(FACTIVA)
MIAMI NICARAGUANS REALIZE THEIR EXILE IN U.S. MAY BE PERMANENT
GARY MARX
ORLANDO SENTINEL
905 words
21 July 1988
The Seattle Times
FIRST
A10

MIAMI - As sunlight faded to darkness, hundreds of Nicaraguan exiles gathered at Our Lady of Divine Providence church to catch up on local news and listen to an inspirational leader, Monsignor Pablo Antonio Vega.

Young men dressed in guayabera shirts, old women in patterned Nicaraguan dresses and young children in Miami Dolphins football jerseys mingled outside the modern church, bantering in Spanish and eating cacao and vigoron, two favorite Nicaraguan dishes.


(FACTIVA)
Managua's free market overflows, offering...Plenty amid the poverty // From food to clothes, Mercado Oriental has it
BRYANNA LATOOF
824 words
14 September 1988
St. Petersburg Times
CITY
19A
(...)
A favorite street dish is vigoron, an interesting meat and vegetable concoction served on a banana leaf which is held in the palm as a plate. The first layer is a salad made with yucca, cabbage, onion and vinegar, usually with cooked meat mixed in. On top of it all is chicharron, or fried pork skins. Locals spoon the stuff into their mouths with their fingers.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 06:57:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:57:00 EST
Subject: Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
Message-ID: 

INFO-GANDA--50 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits
INFOGANDA--14 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits

   "Infoganda" (INFOrmation + propaGANDA) was mentioned on THE DAILY SHOW
last night at 11 p.m.  Catch the repeat tonight at 7 p.m. if you missed it, on
Comedy Central.
   THE DAILY SHOW reported that the government produced its own fake news
report about Medicare, and the "infoganda" made in on real tv news.  "Fake news?"
Jon Stewart asked his audience.  His "senior ethical correspondent" (everyone
on the show is a senior correspondent) joked that their jobs were being
threatened.
   "Infoganda" is not on the Wordspy.  But one of these days it probably will
be, and...I'll still get no credit.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: just for a laugh
... The "symptoms" page is pretty weak, suggesting that one of the "warning
signs"
indicates a problem, but I've seen similar alcohol infoganda. -- -Mike List
alt.drugs.pot - Dec 3, 1998 by Mike List - View Thread (9 articles)

Re: Choosing snow tires
... technical). They also carry other brands -- and their web page includes
prices, FAQs, tips, and manufacturers' specs/infoganda. ...
rec.autos.driving - Nov 13, 1996 by Wilderness Werkes! - View Thread (8
articles)

Re: Chilly Future for Boys (Take Your *CHILD* To Work Day)
... that rationalized focusing on girls, and relegated boys to stay at school
where
they might feed on Ms.-Foundation nationally-sponsored infoganda: "What about
...
soc.men - Apr 19, 1995 by Tom Revay - View Thread (112 articles)

Re: MS Access - alleged Btrieve importing ability (was: Is MS ...
... It does have this ability... for Paradox 3.X Of course, I just upgraded
to 4.0
a few weeks ago, and none of the Access Infoganda mentioned this limitation.
...
comp.os.ms-windows.apps - Feb 2, 1993 by Philip Bohannon - View Thread (4
articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 09:10:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:10:26 EST
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
Message-ID: 

AND HALF OF GEORGIA--234 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

   One more Americanism while I do the laundry.
   This is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.
Fred Shapiro?
   I haven't re-subscribed to Augusta Archives to research this.  It''s
interesting that Newspaperarchive--that contains the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION--doesn't
have it earlier.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Commonwealth - 6/13/1913
...parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA" signifies the
limits OF the.....for a year I traveled all over HELL: and HALF OF GEORGIA after
them stars, and never.....FOB mm Love OF Humanity Should plant Love OF Noise
GAMES INSTEAD OF GUNS State Fire.....we also now urge a thorough cleaningtip OF
all rubbish and a restriction OF the use..
Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Friday, June 13, 1913  950 k

Stevens Point Journal - 6/14/1913
...for a year I traveled all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA after them stars,
and never.....parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA"
signifies the limits OF the.....early and prOFusely, pinch OFf the ends OF HALF the
branches, so that the energy OF the.....manure, and set the plants in the ground
HALF an inch deeper than they were in the..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, June 14, 1913  906 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 18 10:29:49 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:29:49 EST
Subject: Creeks don't rise (1892); Ugly as homemade sin (1890); Licked red
 off your candy
Message-ID: 

CREEKS DON'T RISE

   Gerald Cohen and David Wilton based asked about this, but I couldn't find
a better answer in the archives.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Portsmouth Times - 8/6/1892
...no preventing providence and the CREEKS DON'T RISE" he will get into the
new.....f people that will go out to hear Iiim. iVe DON'T know about this; we
never aw it tried.....accommodating and painstaking official. We DON'T knowin
what business Mr. McColm will..
Portsmouth, Ohio   Saturday, August 06, 1892  715 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN

   Nothing beats homemade.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("homemade")
Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN.' "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....L Voyce My two them it is all right with me AS long AS they
act like responsible citizens.....of Ewen High School and is eniployed AS
secretary at the Dynamatic Division of..
Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  794 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/16/1896
...that wus lazy AS er fattenin hog an UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. 'Twus that way
she got her come.....uppance. Besides keepin her po' AS Job's turkey he turned
out ter be AS mean.....enthusiASm of horsemanship The motion wAS AS unlike AS
possible to Blacky's coblike.....yo' eoul, she Icved to be waited on same AS
ef she owned 20 niggers. AS I started ter..
Newark, Ohio Sunday, August 16, 1896  857 k

Gazette And Bulletin - 1/24/1945
...wai described AS red middleaged and UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. (Erlenbush wAS
in the thick of.....is somewhat of a gamble, with the weather AS the .chief
determining factor in suen U.S.....of acres of land jsed by the government AS a
site tor the Pennsylvania Ordnance Works..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 24, 1945  856 k

Daily Times News - 1/13/1972
...Strong AS an ox. .Play possum. .UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. .Hook, line and SIN
ker. .Work.....candidates and those in office is not AS simple AS publicly
identifying private.....identify themselves with private interests AS long AS
those interests are not in.....Parting Shots Remember, only a country AS rich AS
the United States could afford to..
Burlington, North Carolina   Thursday, January 13, 1972  670 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 12/11/1967
...works with." jThis means, ''She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....of the chores performed I by WAShington. i AS far AS many
millions of citizens are.....us to keep an eye on what we spend at home AS well AS
that which we. spend in WAShington.....and he gets an allowance, which is
almost AS much AS my salary, but he never seems to..
Holland, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  856 k

Lima News - 1/18/1972
...If Olivia de Havilland were AS UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN, still she'd be hard
to resist.....your mental machinery. This means marijuana AS well AS harder
stuff. And even if you can.....of trouble over this question. I'll put it AS
simply AS possible. Is it fair for a woman..
Lima, Ohio Tuesday, January 18, 1972  585 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....service, every Sunday ette. (morning AS well AS training Both
Miss Adams and Mr. i.....help you find and claim the Bible promises AS yours,
bringing you joy and peace and..
Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 11, 1967  915 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("home made")
Lima News - 9/14/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....AJTSWEM Blood Tonic la It possible to your ,HOME MADE blood tonic
so long AS to become.....10 'bbag 19c Potatoes Quality, Feck 43c HOME MADE
Cookies 2 do, 25c Valley Maid Oleo.....The benefits of advertiSINg had MADE
themselves manifest in each step forward..
Lima, Ohio Monday, September 14, 1936  763 k

Middletown Times Herald - 3/22/1932
...for leather scrappers, and both are UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN. tiring the
first seven Yankees.....he's bathed and dressed and headed for HOME. The boys have
but two in common. Both.....GIANTS TAKE T1CFJGU3 LOS ANGKU23 Giants MADE It
two in a. rov over Uiff Detroit.....runs chASed across the plate. Gehj rig's
HOME run with two men on. wAS the bissest..
Middletown, New York   Tuesday, March 22, 1932  811 k

Lafayette Advertiser - 12/20/1890
...have, ma'am1. Ai boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN an' I jest gave it
to him. I.....s immensely rich.. do you Clerk is old and UGLY, and wifo is
young and York v' WASTED.....awoke to consciousness again. He wAS at his HOME in
Tomsburg. Two sweet faces were.....foot upon the -sand, go v Wlien Sim had
MADE known what his sister had eaid, another..
Lafayette, Louisiana Saturday, December 20, 1890  861 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 9/16/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....a threa-day visit at tea William Btissell HOME. Sprague Duke
Harrison MADE a buSINess I.....2 Forearm bone. 3 Observed. 4 Bird's HOME. 5
Bundle. 6 SINce. 7 Fiber knots. Gives.....Monte Blaine i air. There wAS a
missionary, HOME f deed he had once been heard to say..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 16, 1936  895 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/22/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I Jest give it to
him.....Parker travels alone, and wAS on his way HOME after a swing
around-the circle, his.....of One Dollar and upwards received Loans MADE on short and
long time upon rea state.....Epiphany. Some time ago Dr. Burtsell wAS MADE
defender of the marriage tie, being the..
Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, July 22, 1890  1184 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/25/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yor wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I jesi give it to
him.....took all the snap out t' Samson, Johnnie A HOME MADE air cut, Yonkere
Statesman.....intelligence and morality of tho people. HOME of our little
cities are beyond.....in a considerable degree by the charges MADE against the
defendant.and hence the..
Sandusky, Ohio Friday, July 25, 1890  1122 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
WHO LICKED THE RED OFF YOUR CANDY?

LICKED THE RED OFF + CANDY--75 Google hits, 144 Google Groups hits

   Is this one from a song title?

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Playground Daily News - 1/20/1969
...and THE right thinking voters LICKED THE RED OFF Wallace and LeMav's CANDY
and put.....course, that wrong thinking, hard headed, RED necked, no account
George Wallace and his.....group for anoTHEr term, Webber shrugged OFF THE
impressive growth of THE organization.....worth of diamonds. THE 42year-old Kamm
took OFF in hot pursuit. THE thief, seeing that he..
Fort Walton Beach, Florida Monday, January 20, 1969  729 k

Playground Daily News - 10/21/1968
...I said. "You act like somebody LICKED THE RED OFF your CANDY." "It's this
election said.....7 Muse of poetry 8 Crown of head 9 Loss of RED blood cells
10 Only 11 Growls 1 fi_Footcd.....later In THE day TAURUS (Apr. 20-May Now Is
THE time to get to THE core of your health.....YOU Ml JEFE, BIG WHAT.' MY CHICO
HAS ROBBED THE SILVER MINE? OWNER OF THE MINr. BAILEY By..
Fort Walton Beach, Florida Monday, October 21, 1968  778 k


(WWW.LOC.GOV)
Big man in country music [sound recording] / Little Jimmy Dickens.
New York, N.Y. : Columbia, [1968?]
1 sound disc : analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ; 12 in.

Who licked the "red" off your candy : what really drives violence in America
and what you can do to stop it / Richard C. Staver.
Fernandina Beach, Fla. : Staver Productions, c2001.
229 p. ; 21 cm.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 12:59:26 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:59:26 -0500
Subject: Nothing beats "homemade" (was Ugly as homemade sin (1890))
In-Reply-To: <141.24af7218.2d8ad41d@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

I am a more frequent user of the variant "homemade shit" myself,
though not with "ugly." It wonders me that "homemade" is simply an
aggrandizer which can be inserted in the slot indicated in the as X
as _ Y formula (alternatively Xer than _ Y), e.g., ugly as (homemade)
sin, dumber'n (homemade) shit, with perhaps some semantic
restrictions (no count nouns?), e.g., *as big as a homemade horse and
some pragmatic ones (no complimentary or even neutral expressions?),
e.g., *as easy as homemade pie.

I suspect a connection with "downhome" or even simply "home," which
suggests authenticity or nitty-gritty, so that such expression tell
us that somebody is not just as dumb as any old (maybe even [shudder]
storebought) shit but as dumb as the real thing (i.e., homemade).

dInIs


UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN

    Nothing beats homemade.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("homemade")
Ironwood Daily Globe - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN.' "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....L Voyce My two them it is all right with me AS
long AS they
act like responsible citizens.....of Ewen High School and is eniployed AS
secretary at the Dynamatic Division of..
Ironwood, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  794 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/16/1896
...that wus lazy AS er fattenin hog an UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. 'Twus that way
she got her come.....uppance. Besides keepin her po' AS Job's turkey he turned
out ter be AS mean.....enthusiASm of horsemanship The motion wAS AS unlike AS
possible to Blacky's coblike.....yo' eoul, she Icved to be waited on same AS
ef she owned 20 niggers. AS I started ter..
Newark, Ohio Sunday, August 16, 1896  857 k

Gazette And Bulletin - 1/24/1945
...wai described AS red middleaged and UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. (Erlenbush wAS
in the thick of.....is somewhat of a gamble, with the weather AS the .chief
determining factor in suen U.S.....of acres of land jsed by the government AS a
site tor the Pennsylvania Ordnance Works..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 24, 1945  856 k

Daily Times News - 1/13/1972
...Strong AS an ox. .Play possum. .UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN. .Hook, line and SIN
ker. .Work.....candidates and those in office is not AS simple AS publicly
identifying private.....identify themselves with private interests AS long AS
those interests are not in.....Parting Shots Remember, only a country
AS rich AS
the United States could afford to..
Burlington, North Carolina   Thursday, January 13, 1972  670 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 12/11/1967
...works with." jThis means, ''She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....of the chores performed I by WAShington. i AS far AS many
millions of citizens are.....us to keep an eye on what we spend at
home AS well AS
that which we. spend in WAShington.....and he gets an allowance, which is
almost AS much AS my salary, but he never seems to..
Holland, Michigan Monday, December 11, 1967  856 k

Lima News - 1/18/1972
...If Olivia de Havilland were AS UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN, still she'd be hard
to resist.....your mental machinery. This means marijuana AS well AS harder
stuff. And even if you can.....of trouble over this question. I'll put it AS
simply AS possible. Is it fair for a woman..
Lima, Ohio Tuesday, January 18, 1972  585 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1967
...she works with." This means, "She's UGLY AS HOMEMADE SIN." "She is eAS
y-going, low-key.....service, every Sunday ette. (morning AS well AS
training Both
Miss Adams and Mr. i.....help you find and claim the Bible promises AS yours,
bringing you joy and peace and..
Coshocton, Ohio Monday, December 11, 1967  915 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("home made")
Lima News - 9/14/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....AJTSWEM Blood Tonic la It possible to your ,HOME MADE blood tonic
so long AS to become.....10 'bbag 19c Potatoes Quality, Feck 43c HOME MADE
Cookies 2 do, 25c Valley Maid Oleo.....The benefits of advertiSINg had MADE
themselves manifest in each step forward..
Lima, Ohio Monday, September 14, 1936  763 k

Middletown Times Herald - 3/22/1932
...for leather scrappers, and both are UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN. tiring the
first seven Yankees.....he's bathed and dressed and headed for HOME.
The boys have
but two in common. Both.....GIANTS TAKE T1CFJGU3 LOS ANGKU23 Giants MADE It
two in a. rov over Uiff Detroit.....runs chASed across the plate. Gehj rig's
HOME run with two men on. wAS the bissest..
Middletown, New York   Tuesday, March 22, 1932  811 k

Lafayette Advertiser - 12/20/1890
...have, ma'am1. Ai boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN an' I jest gave it
to him. I.....s immensely rich.. do you Clerk is old and UGLY, and wifo is
young and York v' WASTED.....awoke to consciousness again. He wAS at
his HOME in
Tomsburg. Two sweet faces were.....foot upon the -sand, go v Wlien Sim had
MADE known what his sister had eaid, another..
Lafayette, Louisiana Saturday, December 20, 1890  861 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 9/16/1936
...to use the old expression, AS UGLY AS HOME-MADE SIN. And the proof of this
lies in.....a threa-day visit at tea William Btissell HOME. Sprague Duke
Harrison MADE a buSINess I.....2 Forearm bone. 3 Observed. 4 Bird's HOME. 5
Bundle. 6 SINce. 7 Fiber knots. Gives.....Monte Blaine i air. There wAS a
missionary, HOME f deed he had once been heard to say..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Wednesday, September 16, 1936  895 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/22/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yer wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I Jest give it to
him.....Parker travels alone, and wAS on his way HOME after a swing
around-the circle, his.....of One Dollar and upwards received Loans
MADE on short and
long time upon rea state.....Epiphany. Some time ago Dr. Burtsell wAS MADE
defender of the marriage tie, being the..
Sandusky, Ohio Tuesday, July 22, 1890  1184 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 7/25/1890
...Yes, ma'am. A boy sed yor wuz UGLY AS HOME MADE SIN, an' I jesi give it to
him.....took all the snap out t' Samson, Johnnie A HOME MADE air cut, Yonkere
Statesman.....intelligence and morality of tho people. HOME of our little
cities are beyond.....in a considerable degree by the charges MADE against the
defendant.and hence the..
Sandusky, Ohio Friday, July 25, 1890  1122 k


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Mar 18 14:40:33 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:40:33 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
Message-ID: 

Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
for a higher price).

FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 14:42:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:42:17 -0500
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:10 AM -0500 3/18/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>AND HALF OF GEORGIA--234 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

There's also (from at least one country song) "go/walk through all of
hell and half of Texas", which of course puts half of Georgia to
shame.  Worth checking for first cites?

larry horn

>    One more Americanism while I do the laundry.
>    This is not in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.
>Fred Shapiro?
>    I haven't re-subscribed to Augusta Archives to research this.  It''s
>interesting that Newspaperarchive--that contains the ATLANTA
>CONSTITUTION--doesn't
>have it earlier.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Daily Commonwealth - 6/13/1913
>...parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA" signifies the
>limits OF the.....for a year I traveled all over HELL: and HALF OF
>GEORGIA after
>them stars, and never.....FOB mm Love OF Humanity Should plant Love OF Noise
>GAMES INSTEAD OF GUNS State Fire.....we also now urge a thorough
>cleaningtip OF
>all rubbish and a restriction OF the use..
>Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin Friday, June 13, 1913  950 k
>
>Stevens Point Journal - 6/14/1913
>...for a year I traveled all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA after them stars,
>and never.....parts OF the south, "all over HELL and HALF OF GEORGIA"
>signifies the limits OF the.....early and prOFusely, pinch OFf the
>ends OF HALF the
>branches, so that the energy OF the.....manure, and set the plants
>in the ground
>HALF an inch deeper than they were in the..
>Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, June 14, 1913  906 k


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Mar 18 16:18:16 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:18:16 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <40596E91.5678.9294A03@localhost>
Message-ID: 

>Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
>morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
>MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
>flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
>Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
>for a higher price).
>
>FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
>
>Joanne
>Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
>Merriam-Webster, Inc.
 ~~~~~~~
My recollection of a discussion of this construction on ADS-L a year or so
ago, places it around the Pittsburgh area.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 16:38:10 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:38:10 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:18 AM 3/18/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
> >morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
> >MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
> >flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
> >Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
> >for a higher price).
> >
> >FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
> >
> >Joanne
> >Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
> >Merriam-Webster, Inc.
>  ~~~~~~~
>My recollection of a discussion of this construction on ADS-L a year or so
>ago, places it around the Pittsburgh area.
>A. Murie

Oh, it's much broader than that--all through the South Midland and
increasingly in the North Midland and West Midland (west of the
Mississippi) as well.  The question is whether it's also spread to New
England, in native use or (at least for now) in the speech of transplanted
Midlanders.  You might check out where this car dealer has come from, if
he's a "newcomer" to the area.

A particularly silly comment was made to me recently, by a prescriptivist
ESL teacher, herself from Pittsburgh.  She flew into a rage upon hearing a
colleague (also from Pitt) use needs + p.p. and then claimed that it was
brought into the region by coal miners from Slavic countries, who
"transliterated" (her word) a similar construction into English.  It is
authentically English, of course, and common in much of the British Isles.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 18 17:02:15 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:02:15 -0800
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <40596E91.5678.9294A03@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

> Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
> morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
> MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
> flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
> Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
> for a higher price).
>
> FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
here in california!  one of our grad students, laura staum, caught the
following in a 3/12/04 e-mail memo from our department's administrator:

>> ... or [if] you have an old cpu box/monitor sitting around that needs
>> removed...

we were pretty sure the author was a california native, and so he is,
according to his response to a query from me this morning:

> I grew up in west Los Angeles; my mother came from Clay Center, Kansas
> (her family were dust bowl immigrants to California, over the late
> thirties to early forties, she came out in 1940).
>
> My father came from New York State, his family moved all over New York
> when he was young, so the particular town that he came from escapes
> me.

i wonder where he picked up the construction.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 17:26:29 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:26:29 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
In-Reply-To: <01985970-78FE-11D8-8971-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 09:02 AM 3/18/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
>
>>Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
>>morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
>>MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
>>flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
>>Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
>>for a higher price).
>>
>>FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.
>
>maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
>band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
>here in california!  one of our grad students, laura staum, caught the
>following in a 3/12/04 e-mail memo from our department's administrator:
>
>>>... or [if] you have an old cpu box/monitor sitting around that needs
>>>removed...
>
>we were pretty sure the author was a california native, and so he is,
>according to his response to a query from me this morning:
>
>>I grew up in west Los Angeles; my mother came from Clay Center, Kansas
>>(her family were dust bowl immigrants to California, over the late
>>thirties to early forties, she came out in 1940).
>>
>>My father came from New York State, his family moved all over New York
>>when he was young, so the particular town that he came from escapes
>>me.
>
>i wonder where he picked up the construction.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Its spread westward began quite early, I believe, certainly to Kansas, and
since Depression-era settlement in California was in large part from the
economically-depressed Midland, I wouldn't be surprised if many in-migrants
had this construction.  It may have been diluted (or even suppressed) by
the coming of later waves from elsewhere, but it's obviously still there.

I was quite surprised a few years ago to hear my uncle and aunt (brother
and sister) using "positive anymore" in southern California--on separate
occasions, and not in each other's company.  She went to L.A. and San Diego
from Minnesota (negative 'anymore' country) in 1940 to get work, and her
brother went to L.A. in about 1955 (five other siblings had gone there even
earlier, in the '30s).  They had to have picked up the form out there,
apparently from other transplants from the Midwest.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 18 18:52:13 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:52:13 -0500
Subject: A Posting on "Windy City" Not by Barry Popik
Message-ID: 

Last year I decided that it was indeed terrible that the Chicago Public
Library had a totally wrong story of the origin of the term "Windy City"
on their website, and I started e-mailing them with the facts unearthed by
Barry Popik, urging them to correct their site.  After a long struggle on
my part, the CPL has actually changed the entry.  The bad news is that the
new entry is only slightly better than the old one, leaving the Charles A.
Dana story pretty much intact, and not even mentioning Barry and his great
discoveries on this term.  The Chicago Historical Society apparently had a
hand in this pseudo-correction.

This sad situation can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.chipublib.org/008subject/005genref/faqwindy.html

Before I continue the futile attempt to fix this mess, let me pose two
questions for Barry whose answers will help me formulate my response to
the CPL:

1. Is there any basis whatsoever for the following statement:

"In the early part of the nineteenth century, Chicago promoters went up
and down the East Coast loudly promoting Chicago as an excellent place to
invest. Detractors claimed they were full of wind."

2. Is there any validity to the claim that Charles A. Dana popularized
"Windy City," although clearly not coining it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 18 22:44:54 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:44:54 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: Audiotapes of English dialects
Message-ID: 

Another listserv I'm on is looking for audiotapes of English
dialects.  Hughes and Trudgill has been cited on Britain, plus the
following George Mason site, which I don't think is very good.  Can anyone
recommend a better collection for American dialects, besides the bits and
pieces we've all collected from "Talk of the Nation," etc.?  I'm not sure
we have one!
(Another nice British tape is "Urban Voices," by Foulkes and Docherty.)

Beverly Flanigan

>X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:46:55 -0800
>From: "Stefka H. Marinova-Todd " 
>Subject: Re: Audiotapes of English dialects
>To: Barbara Pearson 
>Cc: Kelley Sacco , info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4)
>  Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax)
>Sender: 
>List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.0.2 by LetterRip Software, LLC.
>List-Unsubscribe: 
>X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu
>X-PMX-Stop:  Thu Mar 18 16:50:47 2004
>X-PMX-Start: Thu Mar 18 16:50:47 2004
>X-PMX-Version: 4.5.0.90627, Antispam-Core: 4.0.4.90552, Antispam-Data:
>2004.3.18.94674 (pm7)
>X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html
>X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, PureMessage (score=0, required 5)
>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='__IN_REP_TO 0,
>__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __MOZILLA_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0,
>__MIME_VERSION 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0,
>X_ACCEPT_LANG 0, __USER_AGENT 0, __REFERENCES 0, SUSPECT_LIST_HEADERS 0,
>__PORN_PHRASE_15_0 0, EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION 0, SIGNATURE_LONG_DENSE 0,
>__MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, REFERENCES 0.000, IN_REP_TO 0, USER_AGENT 0.000'
>
>Dear Dr. Pearson,
>
>There is also a web-page (http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/) called Speech
>Accent Archive hosted at the George Mason University which contains a
>collection of audio-files of various foreign accents of English, including
>about 60 samples of English dialects from across the US, as well as
>Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other English speaking countries. In
>all the samples, the speakers are asked to read the same paragraph in
>English, which provides for a good comparison across accents/dialects.
>
>I hope this is of help.
>Best regards,
>Stefka Marinova-Todd
>
>Barbara Pearson wrote:
>>Dear Infochildes,
>>I've been asked by a non-linguist who is trying to organize
>>a program on language awareness for an audiotape of
>>different English dialects.  (She's in the US, but I guess
>>if there's one of British dialects, that might be useful,
>>too.)
>>She's already familiar with the video "American Tongues,"
>>which would have been my first response for her.
>>Any ideas?
>>Thanks,
>>Barbara
>>
>>*****************************************
>>Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph. D.
>>Project Manager, Research Assistant
>>Dept. of Communication Disorders
>>University of Massachusetts
>>Amherst MA 01003
>>413.545.5023
>>fax: 545.0803
>>bpearson at comdis.umass.edu
>>http://www.umass.edu/aae/
>>
>>---
>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>
>--
>____________________________________________
>Stefka H. Marinova-Todd, Assistant Professor
>School of Audiology and Speech Sciences
>University of British Columbia
>5804 Fairview Avenue
>Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 1Z3
>tel: (604) 822-0276
>fax: (604) 822-6569
>


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 19 04:51:40 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:51:40 -0500
Subject: Only way to fly
Message-ID: 

Someone just told me about used books bargains at Amazon and remarked that "it's the only way to fly".

What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although Google finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only way to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"


Se?n Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.

http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:30:08 2004
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:30:08 +0800
Subject: Only way to fly
In-Reply-To: <200403190458.i2J4wlt7019632@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: 

SF => What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although
Google =
SF => finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only
way =
SF => to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane =
SF => predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"

I recall Western Airlines using that slogan years ago.

Here's a data point:

Wally the bird - Commercial spokes-bird for Western Airlines who made
his debut in 1955. Wally is a rather big beaked, plump yellow bird who
sits on the outside tail wings of the Western Airline luxury flights.
Sipping champagne as the airplane sailed through the sky, Wally recites
his famous quotation: "It's the O-O-ONLY way to fly!" (the ad campaign had
him flying both propeller and later jet planes). Wally was designed by
John Urie, assistant  animator at John Hubley Storyboard Productions. Les
Goldman originated the phrase "It's the only way to fly." The campaign was
created by Buchanan Advertising Agency. Reportedly, Wally's derived his
name from the phrase "Western Airlines Loves You."    TRIVIA NOTE:  On
episode #9 "Witch or Wife" on the occult sitcom BEWITCHED, Endora the
witch (Agnes Moorehead) spoofs the Western Airlines ad when she snags a
ride on a jetliner. Of course, instead of reserving a seat onboard, she
sits outside the aircraft at the tail fin and sips champagne.  As the
plane soars through the skies, she looks into the camera and says "It's
the only way to fly"

http://www.tvacres.com/birds_canary_wally.htm

Russ


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:32:41 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:32:41 EST
Subject: Only way to fly (1955)
Message-ID: 

(LIBRARY OF CONGRESS)
The only way to fly : the story of Western Airlines, America's senior air
carrier / Robert J. Serling.
1st ed.
Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, 1976.
viii, 494 p., [8] leaves of plates : ill. ; 22 cm.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY
Goods and Services IC 039. US 105. G & S: TRANSPORTATION OF PASSENGERS BY
AIR. FIRST USE: 19551000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19551000
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72158587
Filing Date December 5, 1962
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0794950
Registration Date August 24, 1965
Owner (REGISTRANT) WESTERN AIRLINES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 6060 AVION
DRIVE LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0531594;0705078;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19850824
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 05:18:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:18:38 EST
Subject: Only way to fly (1955)
Message-ID: 

(TRADEMARKS)

1 75745526 THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
2 73186530 1131002 THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
3 73186529 1131961 WESTERN AIRLINES, THE ONLY WAY TO FLY TARR DEAD
4 72158587 0794950 WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY TARR



Word Mark   WESTERN AIRLINES THE O-N-L-Y WAY TO FLY
Goods and Services IC 039. US 105. G & S: TRANSPORTATION OF PASSENGERS BY
AIR. FIRST USE: 19551000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19551000
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72158587
Filing Date December 5, 1962
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0794950
Registration Date August 24, 1965
Owner (REGISTRANT) WESTERN AIRLINES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 6060 AVION
DRIVE LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0531594;0705078;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19850824
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From cmuirphd at EXCITE.COM  Fri Mar 19 06:16:45 2004
From: cmuirphd at EXCITE.COM (C Muir)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:16:45 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
Message-ID: 

read today that "flexitarian" was voted most useful word for 2003. however, to describe flexible vegetarians, the word does not make etymological sense. That is, "flexi" and "tarian" simply mean flexible people. And if that is not the case, then we might allow:

Unitarian = one on a strict, single food diet (especially when sick)
Humanitarian = one on a human diet (a cannibal?)

I think Vegeflex is a better word.

CM


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 06:30:58 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:30:58 EST
Subject: Phood (Food + Pharma,
 or nutritionally enhanced food); Chicago Public Library
Message-ID: 

PHOOD

PHOOD--2,520 Google hits, 1,390 Google Groups hits

   Phuck!  I phorgot all about this!
   There aren't a lot of helpful hits for "phood" yet, but there will be.


   18 March 2004, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 1, col. 7:
   _Crunch Time_

_With Food Sales Flat, Nestle_
_Stakes Future on Healthier Fare_

_High-Tech Additives in "Phood"_
   _Help Munchers Keep Fit;_
   _So Far, Slow to Catch On_
(...)
   With the industry facing stagnant sales growth, Nestle is looking for
growth in the intersection of food and pharmaceuticals--a niche of nutritionally
enhanced products known in the business as "phood."


(GOOGLE)
portland imc - 2003.04.22 - Some thoughts on Anarchy and ...
... and pharmaceutical producers- and now our food- shall i say phood-
industry and ... PHARMA
aka the pharmacutical manufacurers association is the group that spent ...
portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/04/61264.shtml - 57k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)(Not really "food" + "pharma")
Re: Phood Phind in Philly
For those of you in the Philadelphia region, or planning to travel to this
area,
there's a VEGAN Chinese restaurant. It's called Harmony, on 9th and Market.
...
rec.food.veg - Nov 16, 1991 by Benash - View Thread (2 articles)  Pizza and
Telecom Inflation (was Phast Phood)
(Previous post about how university town goes from 10,000 to 100,000 on a
football
weekend, and that the pizza company delivers by bicycle.) (A lot of this is
...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 27, 1991 by Dennis Blyth - View Thread (1 article)
Re: Phast Phood
In article  kucharsk at solbourne.com (William
Kucharski)
writes: X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 635, Message 7 of 13 This is ...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 22, 1991 by Robert E. Zabloudil - View Thread (15
articles)  Re: 950-PIZZA (was Phast Phood)
In article  TELECOM Moderator responds to Mike
Shawaluk
: [Moderator's Note: There is no relation whatsoever ...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 18, 1991 by David Ash - View Thread (3 articles)
Call 1-800-TASSELS (Was: Phast Phood)
Jeff Sicherman opened a thread (Digest v11,iss626) about Domino's Pizza using
an
AT&T development intended to route your call to the nearest store for entry
...
comp.dcom.telecom - Aug 18, 1991 by Donald E. Kimberlin - View Thread (1
article)  Re: Wanted: seafood and view in La Jolla, CA
... spl (the p stands for phood) -- Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7978
(Yes, another
new job!) UCSD Microscope and Imaging Resource/9500 Gilman Drive/La Jolla ...

rec.food.restaurants - Jul 22, 1991 by Steve Lamont - View Thread (4
articles)  Re: My old-bag-you-fool is not a mother. Yet.
... Or has Rutgers decided to franchise, not unlike McDonald's? I can see it
now, their
first weekly special, in neon lights and all: Phood, Pholks, and PhD's! ...
alt.flame - Feb 15, 1991 by Theodore A. Kaldis - View Thread (2 articles)
BlobDemo5 - Blob Manager Demo source (part 5 of 5)
... pharmonic", X"\pheave", X"\pheaven", X"\pheavenward", X"\pheavy",
X"\pheavyweight",
X"\phero", X"\pheroic", X"\phistorian", X"\phistory", X"\phood", X"\phoodlum
...
mod.mac.sources - Feb 1, 1987 by macintosh at felix.UUCP - View Thread (1
article)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO PUBLIC LIBRARY

   Thanks to Fred Shapiro for trying to help.  Fred writes:


   After a long struggle on my part, the CPL has actually changed the entry.
The bad news is that the new entry is only slightly better than the old one,
leaving the Charles A.Dana story pretty much intact, and not even mentioning
Barry and his great
discoveries on this term.  The Chicago Historical Society apparently had a
hand in this pseudo-correction.

This sad situation can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.chipublib.org/008subject/005genref/faqwindy.html

Before I continue the futile attempt to fix this mess, let me pose two
questions for Barry whose answers will help me formulate my response to
the CPL:

1. Is there any basis whatsoever for the following statement:

"In the early part of the nineteenth century, Chicago promoters went up
and down the East Coast loudly promoting Chicago as an excellent place to
invest. Detractors claimed they were full of wind."

2. Is there any validity to the claim that Charles A. Dana popularized
"Windy City," although clearly not coining it?

Fred Shapiro


   The Chicago Public Library's web site has always had TWO contradictory
(and equally wrong) theories.  One is the above, and it does NOT appear to have
changed.  The other is this (still on the site) that claims that Charles Dana
coined and not just popularized it:

Why is Chicago called the Windy City?
Chicago is nicknamed the "Windy City" but not because of its wind speeds. The
average wind velocity here is 10.3 miles an hour. Cities with higher average
velocities include Boston, 13.1; Buffalo, 12.6 and Cleveland, 10.9. The
nickname originated in an editorial of the now defunct New York Sun when Chicago and
New York City were competing to host the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition.
Charles A. Dana, editor of the New York Sun, wrote an editorial telling New
Yorkers to pay no attention to the "nonsensical claims of that windy city. Its
people could not hold a world's fair even if they won it."
Source: Chicago Tribune, 8 June 1970, sA p1.


    To answer Fred:

1.  No, there is no basis whatsoever that "Chicago promoters went up and down
the East Coast...."  As I've shown through meticulous work, the East Coast
newspapers (TIMES, BROOKLYN EAGLE, WASHINGTON POST, etc.) were actually the last
to use "Windy City."  Cincinnati--not on the East Coast--was the first.

2.  "Windy City" was in a SPORTING LIFE city nicknames list in 1886.  Charles
Dana didn't even popularize it when he wrote over three years later.

   For more on the Dana "Windy City" myth, see:

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Reno Evening Gazette - 4/20/1945
...to the nonsensical claims of that WINDY CITY. The people of CHICAGO could
not build a.....are right in asserting that CHARLES A. DANA of the New York
Sun, in coining the CITY.....for the world's Columbian exposition of 1893, said:
pay any attention.....applied to war production. WINDY But Not WINDY CHICAGO
'S CURRENT protest over being..
Reno, Nevada Friday, April 20, 1945  715 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 4/20/1945
...in asserting that CHARLES A. DANA of the NEW YORK Sun, in coining the CITY
designation.....protest over being described as the ''WINDY CITY is a
reminder of the havoc Time.....herein. Rational Advertising Company NEW YORK.
Chicago. San Francisco, Detroit.....attention to the nonsensical claims of that WINDY
CITY. The people of Chicago could not..
Reno, Nevada Friday, April 20, 1945  715 k

Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958
...New York Times 'Do not believe that WINDY CITY.' And that's how CHICAGO
got a nickname.....Mrs. Bestow chuckled, "that CHARLES DANA wrote in
the.....time CHICAGO was a lusty, rapidly-growing CITY, independent and set to take its
place.....the 65th anniversary of the great CHICAGO exhibition. The picnic will
be held..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  606 k

Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958
...New York Times 'Do not believe that WINDY CITY.' And that's how CHICAGO
got a nickname.....I Mrs. Bestow chuckled, "that CHARLES DANA wrote in
the.....time CHICAGO was a lusty, rapidly-growing CITY, independent and set to take its
place.....the 65th anniversary of the gre.it CHICAGO exhibition. The picnic
will be held..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  594 k


   Yes--according to the SOUTHTOWN ECONOMIST of 1958, famous NEW YORK SUN
editor Charles Dana wrote in the NEW YORK _TIMES_.
   When the Chicago Historical Society's research department repeated the
Dana myth to weatherman Al Roker just last month, I wrote to the CHS to explain
itself.  I mentioned that I'd been sending my research to the forthcoming
ENYCLOPEDIA OF CHICAGO (a joint project of the Newberry Library and the CHS) for
free.
   There's been no response in over two weeks--just like it's been for ten
years.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 08:00:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:00:15 EST
Subject: Should kittens born in an oven be called biscuits? (1895)
Message-ID: 

BORN IN AN OVEN--85 Google hits,   64 Google Groups hits

   Variously given as "cat" or  "kitten" or "dog," born in an oven and called
"biscuits" or "cake" or "bread."
   I must caution that this is not a proper way to make hot dogs.


(GOOGLE)
GameDev.net - User Profile - Jimmy The Nose
... Yeah whatever. Eminem is suck and Moby is OK. A cat born in an oven
is not a cake.  ... "Abortion thread closed' closed!?" closed!? ...
www.gamedev.net/profile/profile.asp?id=15938 - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

LH Conklin - Gallery I
... It reminds me of the old adage that says- if a litter of puppies is born
in an
oven, you cannot call them biscuits. 1-3/4x5/8x1/2 inches. 21 grams. $7,500.
...
www.lhconklin.com/Main%20Galleries/Gallery.htm - 28k - Mar 18, 2004 - Cached
- Similar pages

SPBOXING.COM: Boxing News and Fight Merchandise
... are those in the cynical school of journalism who say that ever calling
Jones a heavyweight
is somewhat akin to calling kittens born in an oven "biscuits," and ...
www.spboxing.com/articleserver/displaytags/ index.cfm?section=news&
articleid=2780 - 12k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS)\
If a cat gave birth in an oven - would it's kittens be biscuts?
... OK just because a kitten is born in an oven dosen't make it a biscut, so
does a regional
Rainbow Gathering approved by council but on paper called "dolphin camp ...
alt.gathering.rainbow - Feb 21, 2004 by bodhi - View Thread (5 articles)

Re: DO AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THEMSELVES ...
"Just because a kitten is born in an oven doesn't make it a biscuit."
- Malcolm X How poetic. And, it just about says it all. -John ...
soc.culture.african.american - Mar 18, 1997 by ita - View Thread (47 articles)

Re: Tao Te Barbeque
... accident of my birth in Tennessee has not made me an alien in this
gracious land
because as Mr. CM Hurst once observed: "a kitten, born in an oven, does not
...
rec.sport.football.college - May 25, 1994 by Trevor Bauknight - View Thread
(45 articles)

Re: Southern dialects
... of bread roll, baked in an oven. You would not call a kitten born
in an oven a biscuit. Similarly, a Texan is not Southern, even ...
rec.boats.paddle - Mar 16, 2001 by ChasMan - View Thread (22 articles)


 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Sandusky Daily Star - 9/8/1900
...Pat Faith, ANd if a kitten was afther beIN BORN IN AN OVEN, would it be a
loaf of bread.....lie is both a v w major ANd a Judge. He was BORN IN GermANy
IN 1844 ANd came to this.....you claim to be AN IrishmAN when you were BORN ID
America.....ANd IN crossINg the street he had to pass IN the rear of the car
that was IN waitINg..
Sandusky, Ohio Saturday, September 08, 1900  702 k

Bridgeport Telegram - 2/9/1923
...ANy more thAN because kittens were BORN IN AN OVEN meANt that they were
biscuits.....be' thrown, out of politics. Whether BORN IN Amerilca or not, he
contINued as long.....Lower region Friday ANd Friday night, ANd IN the Mi-lie
AtlANtic AN North AtlANtic.....after all, most of us are that kINd demANd AN pAN
sive simplicity IN their climaxes..
Bridgeport, Connecticut Friday, February 09, 1923  808 k

Marion Daily Star - 7/3/1916
...seasons of the year, but there would be BORN IN AN OVEN are biscuits." Pea
Ridge Pod.....so little: Putnam says: "It is true I was BORN IN EnglANd. But
1 am no more AN.....AN, Well put well put But, unfortunately, BORN ANd reared
under the shelterINg folds of.....AN ordINary piANo she cAN't hold a caramel
IN one hANd ANd a powder rag IN the other. l..
Marion, Ohio Monday, July 03, 1916  647 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/29/1911
...PRUNES GROWN IN CALIF. Kittens BORN IN AN OVEN Should W Called BiKoito;
Hit.....At theRequest of at Au States -has sent AN__ gunboat' to Hay tien waters
f o IN IN.....Los ANgeles DynamitINg Cases Los ANgeles. IN the 'defense's AN
swer IN the hearINg of.....his name was Tveitmbe ANd _ 2. Joseph AN Powder
WUrtisT was killed IN the' fre.ight..
Placerville, California Saturday, July 29, 1911  623 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/29/1911
...city, was mistaken for a deer ANd Kittens BORN IN AN OVEN Should be Called
Biscuits.....leadership of AN INternational labor union, IN order that he may
stANd IN the dock with.....here for the murder of his wife, Mollie, IN
February, 1910, collapsed IN his cell IN.....was promptly filed. This was denied IN
AN order of the court. The INjuries which..
Placerville, California Saturday, July 29, 1911  623 k

Indiana Progress - 1/16/1901
...Faith, ANd if a kitten was a ft her beiu BORN IN AN OVEN, would it bt> ii
loaf of.....you claim to be AN IrishmAN when you were BORN IN America.....of
latitude ANd longitude this year. IN the PhilippINes, IN Hawaii, IN Cuba AN
d.....recorded ANd added, ANd they serve to make AN expert acconut.INt out of ANy
one who cAN..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 16, 1901  670 k


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
Search: "born in an oven"
Humors of Political Campaigning in Kentucky, by Edward J. McDermott: pp.
826-834
p. 827 2 matches of 'born in an oven'
in: Title:  The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 50, Issue 6
Publisher:  The Century Company Publication Date:   Oct 1895
City:   New York    Pages:  1066 page images in vol.
   The "New Haven Herald" says: "Does the editor of the 'Louisville Journal'
suppose that he is a true Yankee because he was born in New England?  If a dog
is born in an oven is he bread?"  We can tell the editor that there are very
few dogs, whether born in an oven or out of it, but are _better bred_ than he
is.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 09:55:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:55:21 EST
Subject: Pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel (1942)
Message-ID: 

POUR WATER OUT OF A BOOT--914 Google hits, 1,500 Google Groups hits
POUR PISS OUT OF A BOOT--528 Google hits, 5,200 Google Groups hits
INSTRUCTIONS ON THE HEEL--1,650 Google hits, 4,150 Google Groups hits
DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL--74 Google hits, 182 Google Groups hits

   We're talking stupid.
   I couldn't find this easily in the HDAS and the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF
SLANG.
   SOUP out of a boot?  Well, must be "corn" soup.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lowell Sun - 10/17/1942
...enough to pour soup out of a boot with full DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. Never
since Gcrohimo.....THE axles groaning Beneath THE heavy load. THE light grows
at my window, And ON THE pane.....of THE greatest performances ever played ON
THE diamONd, THE total attendance at THE.....oath ON THE incandescent hinges
that siring THE gates of THE regiONs of THE doomed tliat..
Lowell, Massachusetts Saturday, October 17, 1942  897 k

Coe Cosmos - 12/4/1946
...enough to pour water out of a boot, with DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL, should be
able to see.....RedmON at bay ON THE strategic points of THE game, while THE
CrimsON line checked THE.....point cONversiON. THE final count came In THE
closing moments of THE game. Stymied ON.....through THE squad. Little Jim King is
given THE nod as THE best field general in THE..
Cedar Rapids, Iowa Wednesday, December 04, 1946  381 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with f DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. been in
this.....42. in a comfortable farm house no standing ON j THE old Lawrence
road whore THE I towns.....ONly ONe THE hoy in THE nacy. A 1JCTTER IN THE MAIL
You noted last Saturday THE 25th.....it was invented bv THE DI of Waterlook at
THE battle of THE same name. "Of all THE inde..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  889 k

Lowell Sun - 10/17/1942
...to pour soup out of a boot with, full DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. Never since
GerONimo.....THE axles groaning Beneath THE heavy load. THE light grows at. my
window, And ON THE.....of THE greatest performances ever played ON THE diamON
d, THE total attendance at THE.....given at THE formal closing of THE pool THE
past seasON." At THE pool during THE..
Lowell, Massachusetts Saturday, October 17, 1942  929 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...to pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. hai-e
been in this.....lovely laughter. Have cheered for her ON THE ('horns lArtf of
THE SetON .. Younger.....it was invented by THE Du of Waterlook at THE battle
of. THE same name. "Of all THE.....In he made THE dedicatory adi dress at THE
unveiling of THE boulder in frONt of THE..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  898 k

Lowell Sun - 10/13/1942
...pour soup out a secONd-handed boot with Iu' DIRECTIONS ON THE HEEL. "J
huce been in tins.....practice, mostly ON THE north side i of THE river, which
had been inblishcd by THE.....it was invented by THE Duk' of Waterlook at THE
battle of THE same name. "Of all THE inde.....nits in n. plushy chair, THE Sirn,
tilioitt ON I IL Our T'lioi THE H'orM M'fir is like..
Lowell, Massachusetts Tuesday, October 13, 1942  900 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 12:01:05 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:01:05 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Phony"
In-Reply-To: <1e.24b171d4.2d8beda2@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

phony (OED 1900)

1898 _Wash. Post_ 14 Mar. 8 (ProQuest)  Any member of the Order of Oily
Slicks that could do Jem Mace -- and Jem was done in Frisco about two
decades ago -- could palm off a "phony" gold brick on even Hungry Joe.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 12:06:47 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:06:47 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phony"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

phony (OED 1900)

1896 _Wash. Post_ 3 Mar. 8 (ProQuest)  Detective McGlue and Policeman
Cooney captured two men yesterday in the act of working a clever "phoney"
game on the residents of the Third Precinct.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 19 12:35:24 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:35:24 -0500
Subject: Nothing beats "homemade" (was Ugly as homemade sin (1890)
Message-ID: 

From:    "Dennis R. Preston" preston at MSU.EDU

: I am a more frequent user of the variant "homemade shit" myself,
: though not with "ugly." It wonders me that "homemade" is simply an
: aggrandizer which can be inserted in the slot indicated in the as X
: as _ Y formula (alternatively Xer than _ Y), e.g., ugly as (homemade)
: sin, dumber'n (homemade) shit, with perhaps some semantic
: restrictions (no count nouns?), e.g., *as big as a homemade horse and
: some pragmatic ones (no complimentary or even neutral expressions?),
: e.g., *as easy as homemade pie.

: I suspect a connection with "downhome" or even simply "home," which
: suggests authenticity or nitty-gritty, so that such expression tell
: us that somebody is not just as dumb as any old (maybe even [shudder]
: storebought) shit but as dumb as the real thing (i.e., homemade).

Agreed all 'round--so I just wanted to add to the discussion the (emerging?)
orthographic variant of "homemade" as "homade" or even "ho made".

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one subject to double-takes when I see a
restaurant advertising "ho made mashed potatoes" (which is bizarre on *two*
levels--what are hos doing making mashed potatoes, and why did they go
through the trouble of carting it from someone's house to a restaurant?)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Mar 19 12:39:57 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:39:57 -0500
Subject: Needs + past part. in New England?
Message-ID: 

From:    "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
: On Mar 18, 2004, at 6:40 AM, Joanne M. Despres wrote:

:: Has anybody else seen this expression used north of NJ?  This
:: morning I opened a mailing from a Toyota dealership in Greenfield,
:: MA that contained the phrase "needs serviced."  I assume these
:: flyers are published locally, because the Toyota dealership in
:: Northampton sends mailings offering its own service deals (usually
:: for a higher price).

:: FWIW, Greenfield is definitely more "countrified" than Noho.

: maybe it's spreading out from its original territory in the u.s. (a
: band going from western pennsylvania west to, roughly, iowa).  even
: here in california!...

And eastward, too. This isn't north of NJ, but Jeanne (my wife) and her
siblings all *occasionally* use NEEDS Xed in casual speech; they all grew up
in Aberdeen, Maryland (far northern exurbs of Baltimore) in the 70s and 80s.
(The one who, in my casual observation, uses it the most is Jeanne's younger
sister, born at the end of the 70s.) Their mother (grew up in Salt Lake
City, Utah in the 50s) absolutely detests the construction, and I've never
heard her use it except to criticize it.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:51:26 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:51:26 EST
Subject: Through hell and half of Georgia (1913)
Message-ID: 

Just a thought:  does this expression reflect Sherman's March Through
Georgia?  After all, it was Sherman who siad (or was supposed to have said?) "War is
Hell".

Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?

      - James A. Landau


From mlv at POBOX.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:53:53 2004
From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:53:53 -0500
Subject: Only way to fly
In-Reply-To: <20040319050240.2FAA5858EE@kelvin.pobox.com>
Message-ID: 

>Date:    Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:51:40 -0500
>From:    Sean Fitzpatrick 
>Subject: Only way to fly
>
>Someone just told me about used books bargains at Amazon and remarked =
>that "it's the only way to fly".
>
>What's the origin of this?  It is never used literally (although Google =
>finds a number of drug-related references--"Mescaline--it's the only way =
>to fly").  Was it an airline slogan, or did it have a pre-airplane =
>predecessor?  "Hupmobile!  It's the only way to travel!"
>
>
>
>
I don't know if it had a pre-airplane predecessor, but it was the slogan
for Western Airlines
(from 1955, according to this link, until maybe some time in the 70s or
so, I think).

And I just learned that the bird in the ads had a name:
http://www.tvacres.com/birds_canary_wally.htm

Hope this helps.

Michael


From yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM  Fri Mar 19 12:56:26 2004
From: yatdaisy at YAHOO.COM (NOLA DAISY)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:56:26 -0800
Subject: definition of grassroots
Message-ID: 

Speaking of political terms, I am working on a Cultural Studies project that will discuss the use of the Internet for this 2004 Presidential election. So many Democratic candidates {Dean especially} as well as organizations like MoveOn.org and makeamericaworkforus.org describe themselves as being part of a new "grassroots" movement.

Has the definition changed in recent years?

Any guidance on this will be appreciated since it's vital that I define this term before analyzing those examples.

Thanks

Daisy Pignetti


"James A. Landau"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "James A. Landau"
Subject: Re: democrat as an adjective
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:50:11PM -0600, Dennis Baron wrote:
> As long as we're on the subject, when did Democrat start replacing
> Democratic as a proper adj?

My father was an editor on the Louisville KY _Courier-Journal_ back when it
was owned by the Bingham family. In the terminology of the day, the
_Courier-Journal's_ editorial stance was "liberal Democratic".

Once when visiting my father's office (I can't date this citation except that
it was 1965 or before) I saw a memo from Mr. Bingham stating that the use of
"Democrat" as an adjective rather than "Democratic" was forbidden. I vaguely
recall that the memo stated this practice was a deliberate attempt by
Republicans to be derogatory.

----------------------------------------------------------------

For a politically offensive label, consider the word "lackey" which is so
stereotyped as Communist propaganda that it is a shock to read _The Three
Musketeers_ and find Planchet et al consistently referred to as "lackeys".

Aside to Larry Horn: Anyone who refers to him/herself as a "knee-jerk
liberal" isn't.

- James A. Landau
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 13:22:23 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:22:23 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <200403190626.ARR73221@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 01:16 AM 3/19/2004, C Muir wrote:

>I think Vegeflex is a better word.

Except that's reserved for a machine advertised on TV late at night that
bends carrots and celery into attractive shapes.

Geoff


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Mar 19 14:38:00 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:38:00 -0800
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040319082129.0260dc00@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

I have a coworker who calls himself (half-seriously) a "vegequarian." He
eats fish as well as flora.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Geoff Nathan
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 5:22 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Flexitarian?
>
>
> At 01:16 AM 3/19/2004, C Muir wrote:
>
> >I think Vegeflex is a better word.
>
> Except that's reserved for a machine advertised on TV late at night that
> bends carrots and celery into attractive shapes.
>
> Geoff
>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 15:52:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:52:25 -0500
Subject: Flexitarian?
In-Reply-To: <20040319061645.1946BB710@xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:16 AM -0500 3/19/04, C Muir wrote:
>read today that "flexitarian" was voted most useful word for 2003.
>however, to describe flexible vegetarians, the word does not make
>etymological sense. That is, "flexi" and "tarian" simply mean
>flexible people. And if that is not the case, then we might allow:
>
>Unitarian = one on a strict, single food diet (especially when sick)
>Humanitarian = one on a human diet (a cannibal?)
>
>I think Vegeflex is a better word.
>
>CM
>
Too late; "flexitarian" is already pretty established, according to
the student data I collected last fall.  And as far as not making
etymological sense, it's perfectly consistent with standard
clip-blending procedure; check out "cheeseburger", "homophobia",
"chocoholic", etc. etc.   "-tarian" doesn't mean 'people' here, it
means 'vegetarian', just like "burger", "homo", and "(o)holic" mean
'hamburger', 'homosexual', and 'addicted to' respectively within this
blending process.

Larry Horn


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 17:57:44 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:57:44 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phony" (1894)
Message-ID: 

17 Nov. 1894  _Decatur(IL) Daily Revue_ 2/3

(A story about horse racing)

<>

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 19:20:39 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:20:39 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "grass widow/widower" 1843/1856
Message-ID: 

OED has 1846 for "grass widow"

18 Nov. 1843 _Norwalk(OH) Experiment_   1/5(Newspaperarchive)
(perhaps reprinted from _Chicago Democrat_)

<>

OED and M-W have 1862 for the male equivalent, "grass widower."

6 Oct. 1856 NY Times(Proquest) pg 3

<>

Sam Clements


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar 19 20:03:09 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:03:09 -0800
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040317180133.02f0c540@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 17, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Doug Wilson continues the discussion:

1. what's at issue

> I would speculate that "wack"/"whack" went its own way and the earlier
> form
> was forgotten ... whether it was "whack-off", "wacky", or "whacked", or
> even "out of whack".

well, of course.  speakers rarely have any sense of the historical
origins of the expressions they use, and even if they have opinions on
the matter these aren't necessarily correct.  to make things more
vexing for the linguist, there isn't necessarily a single source for or
influence on the development of expressions.

when i stumbled onto the topic of adjective "w(h)ack", i had two
interests: figuring out how it is used -- what its syntax and semantics
are -- and figuring out where it came from.  i hadn't appreciated just
how complicated the second task was going to be.  though i shouldn't
have been so surprised, i guess: the development of (what i'll call,
for the lack of a better term) demotic vocabulary is notoriously hard
to track, not to mention full of idiosyncratic events (syntactically
and semantically parallel items often fail to shift in the same way)
and multiple influences.  looking at one item quickly entangles you in
a bunch of others, and the puzzles only multiply.

search engines now provide us with vast corpora of demotic writing.  a
truly wonderful resource, but it helps very little with the historical
questions, since these rich resources are historically very shallow and
since (as with all sorts of corpora) it can be very hard to divine the
writer's intentions from the context.  even the synchronic questions
can be explored only so far; as i'll point out below, all sorts of
important variation can be concealed in the corpora, and the corpora
provide no negative evidence (only absence or rarity of positive
evidence).

but... we can now find all sorts of things.  ron butters has noted
adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
(as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these three
innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.  it
is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.

on to some specifics.

2.  "jack off"

>  I doubt
> "jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
> off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
> "jack up
> the car to change the tire"...

well, NSOED2 entry allows for the possibility that the masturbation
sense comes from the contact-verb sense, which in turn comes from the
'man' sense.

the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
would be no surprise.  consider "jerk off", involving what almost
everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
dialectally restricted]).  there are plenty of excellent candidates for
a parallel development, but if any of them have occurred, they haven't
caught on: whip off, churn off, shake off, pluck off, flutter off,
wallop off, wag off, jog off, jounce off, stir off, push off, pull off,
touch off, feel off, finger off, stroke off, flick off, flip off, wipe
off, sweep off, hit off, pinch off, fiddle off, grope off, pat off,
grab off, scrape off, brush off, wipe off, hand off, scratch off,
tickle off, throw off, spray off, splash off, hurl off, slap off,...

what is, is.  (and what is not, is not.)

any of these is possible as an original, genuinely creative (even
poetic) verb for masturbation -- "whip off" and "stroke off" seem to me
to be particularly good images -- but none of them has, so far as i
know, been conventionalized, and certainly none of them has been
*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.  that fact doesn't in
the slightest undercut the proposal that "jerk off" is historically
derived from the verb "jerk".

when i last engaged in a discussion on the origins of "jack off" -- on
the OUTIL mailing list -- almost every imaginable proposal relating
various items "jack", "jerk", and "jag" was floated, and the available
evidence didn't absolutely rule out any of these speculations.  it was
a sobering experience for me.

3.  predicative vs. adnominal

> Is it really certain that the early use [of adjective "w(h)ack"] was
> predicative? Searching Google groups, I find "wack ideas" earlier than
> "that's wack" (1992 vs. 1994) ...
> of course the material is sparse in the early days and I'm sure this
> was
> around in the 1980's.

no, not at all certain.  but i *am* aware of asymmetries in predicative
vs. adnominal uses of modifiers (including in demotic english), so i
was primed to expect them here.

so: i know of speakers with predicative-only modifiers, for instance
"mad + Adj", as in "mad cracked" 'very crazy' (He's mad cracked.  *a
mad cracked guy) and other speakers with adnominal-only "Adj-"ass", as
in "huge-ass" 'really huge' (a huge-ass homework assignment; *The
homework assignment was huge-ass.).

the facts are complicated.  in each case, i think, there are speakers
with *both* uses (predicative and adnominal), so if you do a google
search, you're going to find occurrences of both, and you won't see any
restriction.  to see that there is a restriction, you have to look at
the usage of *individual speakers*, and you have to get judgments about
what they *can't/wouldn't/don't* say as well as judgments about what
they can/would/do say.

my guess was that some speakers had predicative-only adjective
"w(h)ack", and that none had only the adnominal uses.  (clearly, many
speakers have both.)  i could be wrong, but we have to examine
individual speakers to find out.  if i'm right, the suggestion is that
the predicative uses are historically earlier.  or if the asymmetry
goes the other way, then the suggestion is that the adnominal uses are
historically earlier (as doug wilson favors).  and if there's no
asymmetry, then who knows?

4.  adjective w(h)ack/suck/dick/wank and their sources

all sorts of suggestions about the source of adjective "w(h)ack".  note
that i suggested that there might be two rather different items and two
different sources, negative-affect "w(h)ack" '[metaphorically] fucked'
and positive-affect "w(h)ack" 'whack-ass'.

then there's adjective "suck", as in this example that barry popik just
  posted in the kitten-oven-biscuit thread:

--------------
(GOOGLE)
GameDev.net - User Profile - Jimmy The Nose
... Yeah whatever. Eminem is suck and Moby is OK. A cat born in an
oven
is not a cake.  ... "Abortion thread closed' closed!?" closed!? ...
www.gamedev.net/profile/profile.asp?id=15938 - 24k - Cached - Similar
pages
--------------

guesses: "suck" from adjective "sucky", related to intransitive
derogatory "suck", or direct from that verb.  semantics pretty good.
conversion mechanism obscure in either case.

adjective 'dick': could be related to the diminishing mass noun "dick",
as in
   You don't know beans/dick/shit/crap/jack... about linguistics.
could be a clipping of "dick-ass", in either its diminishing sense or
its V+N sense (parallel to "fuck-ass") or both.

(suffixoid "-ass" has a complex distribution: with adjectivals, as an
intensifier: "huge-ass", "monster-ass"; with nouns, in a compound with
a noun, as in "shit-ass" (modifier semantics) and "fuck-ass" and
"whack-ass" (verb+object semantics); and with an element of obscure
category, as in [positive] "whoop-ass".  the straightforward
intensifier uses convert adjectivals to adjectivals, but the other uses
yield adjectivals from items that, historically at least, are not
usable as adjectivals themselves: a whoop-ass party, *a whoop party.)

as for adjective "wank", it could be derived from "wank-off" or from
the noun "wank" 'wanker', as in "he's a real wank", via noun-noun
compounds like "a wank party" 'a party of the sort that wanks go to'
(like "a nerd party").  or possibly other things.

it's a wild world out there, and we don't know jack...or dick...about
much of it.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Mar 19 20:06:13 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:06:13 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "good time Charlie" 1925/1926
Message-ID: 

OED has 1928(although for good-time girl).
For some reason, I though M-W had 1927, but I can't find it.

There are hits in Newspapaperarchive in 1921 for "jazz time girl" and 1924
for "rag time girl."  I assume these could have been the inspiration
for------

---The first Newspaperarchive hit  from 2 Feb. 1925 _Bridgeport(CT)
Telegram_ 13/6
(Advertisement for a vaudeville act)

<>

If you don't count that cite, the first cite for the use of the term in no
uncertain terms is--

25 Aug. 1926  _Appleton(WI) Post Crescent_ 14/4

<>\

But I assume that the Vaudeville act written by Cantor truly started and
popularized the phrase.

Of course, someone will come along and predate Cantor with the term, and I'm
left holding bubkes.

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Mar 19 20:21:06 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:21:06 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <719CA05A-79E0-11D8-995C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:03 PM -0800 3/19/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
>2.  "jack off"
>
>>  I doubt
>>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>>off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
>>"jack up
>>the car to change the tire"...
>
>well, NSOED2 entry allows for the possibility that the masturbation
>sense comes from the contact-verb sense, which in turn comes from the
>'man' sense.
>
>the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
>would be no surprise.  consider "jerk off", involving what almost
>everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
>parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
>dialectally restricted]).  there are plenty of excellent candidates for
>a parallel development, but if any of them have occurred, they haven't
>caught on: whip off, churn off, shake off, pluck off, flutter off,
>wallop off, wag off, jog off, jounce off, stir off, push off, pull off,
>touch off, feel off, finger off, stroke off, flick off, flip off, wipe
>off, sweep off, hit off, pinch off, fiddle off, grope off, pat off,
>grab off, scrape off, brush off, wipe off, hand off, scratch off,
>tickle off, throw off, spray off, splash off, hurl off, slap off,...
>
>what is, is.  (and what is not, is not.)
>
>any of these is possible as an original, genuinely creative (even
>poetic) verb for masturbation -- "whip off" and "stroke off" seem to me
>to be particularly good images -- but none of them has, so far as i
>know, been conventionalized, and certainly none of them has been
*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.

Not that this affects Arnold's point, but "stroke off" *is*
conventionalized, as both my intuition and a quick look at google
confirms, and for both intransitive and transitive uses.  Maybe it
goes into the "dialectally restricted" group, although I suspect the
dialects in question are not regionally delineated.

larry horn


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Mar 19 21:06:16 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:06:16 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "good time Charlie" 1925/1926
In-Reply-To: <002601c40ded$a18f2660$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 03:06:13PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> OED has 1928(although for good-time girl).
> For some reason, I though M-W had 1927, but I can't find it.

It's HDAS that has a 1927, citing Zwilling's _TAD Lexicon._

Jesse Sheidlower


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 22:26:53 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:26:53 EST
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/19/04 3:03:57 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> ron butters has noted
> adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
> suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
> (as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these three
> innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.? it
> is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
> their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.
> 

What I was implying (not very clearly, because still somewhat inchoate in my 
own mind) was that there could be an interactive process here, based partly on 
phonology. That is to say, suppose that speakers associate "That is so wack" 
(or "whack"--how many people actually aspirate /w/ these days?) with "wacked" 
and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational suffix as 
a rule for the cool (hearing it first in counterculture contexts, where it 
apparently first arose). These would-be cool people would then generalize the 
cool rule to other /k/-final pejorative stems, i.e., "dick," "suck," "fuck," and 
even "wank." (Of course, this use of "so" is in itself a cool rule or set of 
rules.)

One would predict that we would begin to get constructions such as "That is 
so jerk" (especially since appositive "jerk" is already possible, as in "As it 
turns out, marrying a millionaire was a jerk idea."
www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0002/25/). Here is an example of the putative 
older form:

I've been quite unfair really, not all me boyfriends were jerks - but each 
and every
one of them have done things so jerk-ish (thats why theyre exs) and ive ...
www.wideworldofass.com/dinkee/979412526.html

I also find the following, but since the speaker is not (it seems) a native 
speaker of English, this is not very useful:

 ... i write in english,and some of you will translate it. i feel so jerk
,because
i never really know,what i am really saying,when i write hungarian. ...
pride.hu/ viewtopic.php?topic=10&forum=1&start=390

However, I do in fact I do find:

 ... That people should kn. If You Only Knew Posted on Jan 03. Categories: 
Lyrics.
Critical. If you only knew about me you wouldn't be so jerk to me. ...
oldpoetry.com/poets/Talliegirl23

 ... threads on the ways of the rest 1%. I'm sometimes looking at them and 
thinking -
how can a man be so cruel, have no dreams, be so brainwashed, so jerk, how 
can ...
freenet.am/~sssite/man1.html

There were at least ten pages of Google results, of which these come from 
only just the first four.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 19 22:44:15 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:44:15 EST
Subject: so stink
Message-ID: 

Here is a great website that has yet another truncated form comparable to
"whack" and the rest:

http://www.iol.ie/~pbalfe/newpage18.htm

See:

Yo mama so stink, she has to creep up on bathwater.
Yo mama so stink, she sweats Black Flag.

Note, however, that we get

...   so bald, you can see what's on her mind.
...   so bald, she looks like an overgrown testicle.

and

so slutty, her legs are like a 7-11, open 24 hours a day.
etc.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Mar 19 23:06:38 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916
Message-ID: 

        It should also be noted that "jazz" in used in sheet music for several songs that were published in 1917.  It is possible, of course, that these were unthought of until the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to New York, but it seems likely that more time would have been needed for the word to catch on and the songs to be written, popularized, and published.

        From Historic American Sheet Music, there is "Everybody Loves A 'Jazz' Band," words by Coleman Goetz, music by Leon Flatow.  I won't bother retyping the lyrics, since they are available at http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/sheetmusic/1910-1920/@Generic__BookTextView/7820;nh=1?DwebQuery=jazz+in+%3Cunittitle%3E+with+label=%22Title%22#X, but the lyrics refer to a band that was heard in New Orleans, playing a rag, with a clarinet, a cornet, a piano, and a trombone, and that makes you think of Alabama.  The front cover advertises "Emma Carus' Terrific 'Jazz' Success!"  Emma Carus was a German-born American vaudeville singer, best known for popularizing "Alexander's Ragtime Band."  The artwork has an African-American man dancing in the foreground and a generic Caucasian brass band marching in the background.

        It seems that there was also an early recording of this song.  From The Encyclopedia of Acoustic Era Recording Artists, at http://www.garlic.com/~tgracyk/fields.htm:  <>  The Fields referred to was Arthur Fields, born Abe Finkelstein.

        A second 1917 song is "Jazzin' the Cotton Town Blues," words by Roger Lewis, music by Harry Olsen, lyrics at http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/sheetmusic/1910-1920/@Generic__BookTextView/23646;nh=1?DwebQuery=jazzin+in+%3Cunittitle%3E+with+label=%22Title%22#X.  The lyrics refer to "a Jazz band in Mississippi, Keeping the darkies dippy."  The jazz band in the lyrics plays blues and includes a cornet, trombone, and clarinet.  The cover says "novelty song" and shows well-dressed African-American couples dancing to the music of an African-American band with a piano, trombone, cornet, drum, cymbal, and schoolbell.

        In an article by Catherine Parsonage, "A critical reassessment of the reception of early jazz in Britain," online at http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500001REQSUB=&REQSTR1=S0261143003003210 (sorry about all these long URLs), there are references to three songs published in Britain in 1917 with "jazz" in their names.  One the author cites as "(Buck/Stamper 1917, 'When I Hear that Jazz Band Play' [h3996n(22)])."  The other two are both by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band:  "Ostrich Walk:  Jazz Foxtrot" and "Sensation: Jazz One-step."  So "jazz" had even made it to Britain by 1917.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of George Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "jazz" in painting, 1915/1916



The apparent fact that Gleizes encountered the word "jazz" in NYC in late 1915 or early 1916 and associated it with music played by black musicians does not fit comfortably with what otherwise seems a plausible story, that "jazz" was a west coast word brought to Chicago by a white musician (Bert Kelly); that it was adopted there by one or several other groups comprised of white musicians; that it did not reach NYC until early 1917, when the Original Dixieland Jazz Band came to the city; and that the word and the music did not become a fad until the ODJB made a hit record in the spring of 1917.
It does seem that once the fad hit, every vaudeville musical group that played novelty music started calling itself a "jazz band", and that the response in Chicago to Kelly;s group, and the ODJB, and Tom Brown's band, was pretty enthusiastic, so it may be that the fad started to spread through vaudeville before the ODJB came to NYC and before they recorded their first hit.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar 20 01:11:10 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:11:10 -0500
Subject: whack 'whacked'
In-Reply-To: <719CA05A-79E0-11D8-995C-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>2.  "jack off"
>
>>  I doubt
>>"jack off" from "jack" = "man" (where are "man off", "bloke off", "guy
>>off", "tom off", "joe off"?);  I suspect "jack" is basically like
>>"jack up
>>the car to change the tire"...
>
>...

>the failure of generalization, to other nouns generically denoting men,
>would be no surprise.

Perhaps I was too elliptical. I would not assert that one would expect all
or many of the conceivable analogous terms to appear. I guess my position
would be that since "jack off" from the verb "jack" seems natural (with
several analogous synonyms [all from verbs at very least]) it would not be
sensible (without a good paper-trail or strong supporting argument of some
type) to postulate instead "jack off" from a noun (="man") (given that NONE
of its likely analogues occurs) ... EVEN if one found the noun etymon
intuitively likely otherwise (which I myself don't).

>   consider "jerk off", involving what almost
>everyone agrees involves the contact verb "jerk" (an obvious figure,
>parallel to "beat off" and "toss off" and "whack off" [all, i believe,
>dialectally restricted]).

All but "toss" were routine in my childhood environment ("toss" very rare,
archaic maybe) ... also "pound" and "stroke" at least.

>there are plenty of excellent candidates for
>a parallel development ....
>
>... certainly none of them has been
>*generally* conventionalized in demotic english.  that fact doesn't in
>the slightest undercut the proposal that "jerk off" is historically
>derived from the verb "jerk".

I agree ... but what if the proposal were (in analogy to the above
"jack"="man" etymology) that "jerk off" is based on a noun "jerk" meaning a
stupid or offensive man? Then I would object (as above) that this etymology
doesn't seem likely, and that the ancestor is probably the verb, by analogy
to "beat", "whack", etc.

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 02:25:23 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:25:23 EST
Subject: architecting
Message-ID: 

In a message dated   Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500,   Jesse Sheidlower
 writes

>  On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
>  > Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of
a
>  > job posted by an investment firm:
>  >
>  > "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
>  > architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
>  > talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."
>
>  As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software
>  industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry
>  has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of
>  examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense
>  'to design' or 'to plan'.

Amdahl, G. M., Blaauw, G. A., and Brooks, F. P. "Architecture of the IBM
System/360," _IBM Journal of Research and Development_, 8, No. 2, 87-101 (April
1964)

While the authors are listed alphabetically, I have no doubt that Gene Amdahl
was the lead author.  Amdahl is well-known in the computer business as THE
designer of the System/360 family.  Later he left IBM and founded his own
company, also called "Amdahl", to build computers using the 360 "architecture" in
competition with IBM.

It could be that this article introduced the noun "architecture" to mean
"design of a computer".  IBM introduced all sorts of new jargon with the
System/360, e.g. what everybody had called a "file" was now to be known as a "data set"
(which in this case led to some confusion, since "data set" is a now-obsolete
term for what we now call a "modem").    IBM also called the System/360 "a
third-generation system", a term which has caught on, even though the 360 was
NOT the first third-generation system.  (What constitutes a third-generation
system is debatable.  My definition is a computer designed around
base-displacement addressing, protected memory, and interrupts, by which definition Britain's
Ferranti Atlas of 1960 was the first.)

Furthermore, the System/360, if not the first third-generation system,
definitely introduced a number of new ideas into computer design.  For one thing, it
was the first computer sold as a "family", that is, different models at
different prices to cover every niche from small to large.  All previous computers
had been introduced as single models wtih single prices and single performance
levels.  Whereas one "designed" a pre-System/360 computer, one might claim
that putting together an entire FAMILY transcended mere design and should be
considered "architecture".

Yes, I am aware that the above citation is for "architecture" as a noun.  I
have no citations for the word as a verb.

The bibliography I got this citation from (my grad school textbook on the
subject, Caxton C. Foster and Thea Iberall, _Computer Architecture, Third
Edition_ New York: Van Nostrand, 1985, ISBN 0-442-27219-7) gives no other citation
for "architecture" before 1970 and they start becoming numerous about 1978. (I
will supply these on request) So Amdahl et al's apparent nelogism might not
have caught on for a while.

Note to Jesse: you said "in the software industry".  The 1964 Amdahl cite was
actually "in the hardware industry".

       - James A. Landau


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Mar 20 02:39:02 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:39:02 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "where's the fire?" 1875
Message-ID: 

OED has 1924.

5 August 1875 _Burlington(IA) Weekly Hawkeye_  2/4

<>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Mar 20 03:42:26 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:42:26 -0500
Subject: architecting
In-Reply-To: <7b.24ddcffd.2d8d0593@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 09:25:23PM -0500, James A. Landau wrote:
> In a message dated   Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:16 -0500,   Jesse Sheidlower
>  writes
>
> >  On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:51:41PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
> >  > Anyone else run across this verb? Here's a quote from the description of
> a
> >  > job posted by an investment firm:
> >  >
> >  > "Members of the Strategic Growth department are responsible for
> >  > architecting and executing strategies to identify and recruit world-class
> >  > talent in a variety of both technical and non-technical fields..."
> >
> >  As others have pointed out, this is originally in the software
> >  industry as a fancy synonym for 'design'; the OED draft entry
> >  has examples to the mid-1970s. We now have increasing number of
> >  examples in a broader scope, but still in the general sense
> >  'to design' or 'to plan'.
>
> Amdahl, G. M., Blaauw, G. A., and Brooks, F. P. "Architecture of the IBM
> System/360," _IBM Journal of Research and Development_, 8, No. 2, 87-101 (April
> 1964)

This citation is already in the OED. So is an earlier one:

1962 F. BROOKS in W. Buchholz in _Planning Computer Syst._
ii. 5 Computer architecture, like other architecture, is the
art of determining the needs of the user..and then designing
to meet those needs as effectively as possible.

> Note to Jesse: you said "in the software industry".  The 1964 Amdahl cite was
> actually "in the hardware industry".

So noted.

However, the 1964 Amdahl cite goes on to specify, "The term
_architecture_ is used here to describe the attributes of a
system as seen by the programmer, i.e., the conceptual
structure and functional behavior, as distinct from the
organization of the data flow and controls, the logical
design, and the physical implementation."

This suggests to me pretty clearly that the cite is indeed
concerned with the software side of things. (Despite the
evidence of this particular paper, though, I would agree
that _architecture_ n. is often used of hardware issues.)

Best,

Jesse
OED


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar 20 13:55:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:55:07 -0500
Subject: in-migrant (was: Through hell and half of Georgia)
In-Reply-To: <200403200500.i2K50G2f000526@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Scripsit James Landau:

        >>>
Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?
        <<<

I don't remember seeing Ber///Bev's use of it, but I've seen it for many
years referring to population movements between regions within a
country, e.g., "The Black population of the Northern cities was swollen
by a flood of in-migrants from the South". I assumed, and still suppose,
that it was used instead of "immigrant" because the latter is used for
people coming from abroad, not moving within the national boundaries.

Ditto of course "in-migration", which I think I've actually seen more
often than "in-migrant". And ISTM much less of "out-migrant/tion".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 14:46:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:46:51 -0500
Subject: Santa Maria Barbecue (1957)
Message-ID: 

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now digitized through about December 31, 1959.  Won't be long now to those "kiwifruits."
   This is an excellent article for this American regional food, but where are my pinquito beans?


Santa Maria Barbecues Add Up to Good Eating
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 17, 1957. p. A17 (1 page)
   SANTA MARIA, Nov. 16.  Ten tons of beef barbecued the Santa Maria way, adds up to a lot of good eating.
   Glorifying of the typical back-yard extravaganza in this community has resulted in Chamber of Commerce leaders proclaiming Santa Maria the "barbecue capital of the West Coast."
   Chamber officials have estimated that 10 tons of beef is barbecued over oak coals in this city annually.
      _Pits Constructed_
   Virtually all community social functions require a barbecue, which has resulted in construction of barbecue pits in the Elks Lodge, Santa Maria Country Club, Veterans Memorial Hall, the high school and even some elementary schools.
   One of the largest barbecue pits on record was erected for the city's 50th anniversary two years ago.  City crews constructed a special 76-foot long put in the city ball park to serve 1600 citizens who helped celebrate the city's birthday.
   Sanata Maria barbecue is not something new.  It is a hand-me-down meat-cooking method inherited from the Indians who cooked their meat on green wood poles over open coals before the Spanish and American occupation of California.
      _Calls for Know-How_
   An oak wood fire is ignited nearly three hours in advance of the actual cooking.  Barbecue crews begin preparation of the meat almost an hour before it is placed over the coals.  Chunks of choice beef are dipped in a mixture of salt, pepper and garlic salt.  The meat is then strung on large metal rods which fit on a rack over the barbecue pit.
   It takes special know-how to toss the meat-laden rod across the red-hot coals and hook the spiked end without scorching an arm.  The meat is quickly seared on both sides.  Then the rack is raised and the meat allowed to simmer for 45 minutes.
   The secret to tasty barbecuing, valley experts agree, is the quick sear which seals the juice and flavor inside the meat.
   Fast team work on the part of the barbecuers, cutters and waiters results in the meat being served the hungry clientele while still piping hot.
   Few frills are needed at a barbecue.  Ordinarily only beans and green salad are found on the table in addition to bread and coffee--and, of course, barbecue.
   Most noted of all barbecues is the monthly stag barbecue held by Santa Maria Club.  Club Manager Fred Pimentel estimates 800 pounds of meat per month is barbecued over the club pit.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 15:24:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: Mai Tai (1958)
Message-ID: 

   More Mai Tai, from the latest in ProQuest.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HAM ON RYON
ART RYON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1958. p. B5 (1 page) :
   WAIKIKI BEACH, Honolulu--...
   So into the aiport's Short Snorter Bar.  In the islands, an rum is mandatory.  I let Browny do the ordering.  The waiter brought something called a mai tai.  A mai tai, I find out later, is about 14 different shades of rum mixed together and "diluted" with a float of liqueur to smooth it out.
   In the Territory only six minutes and, already, I've made my first mistake...


(OED)
_mai tai_, n.
Prob. < Tahitian maitai good, nice, pleasant, cognate with Hawaiian maikai and Rarotongan meitaki good.
? ? Cf. the following claim of coinage (the drink is not mentioned in the 1947 ed. of this work):
? ? 1972 Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide (rev. ed.) 163 In 1944..I [sc. V. J. Bergeron] felt a new drink was needed...Carrie [sc. a friend from Tahiti] took one sip and said, ???Mai TaiRoa A??.??? In Tahitian this means ???Out of this worldthe best.??? Well, that was that. I named the drink ???Mai Tai???.]?

? ? ? ? A cocktail based on light rum, with added cura??ao and fruit juices.
?
? ? 1961 Gourmet July 44/3 Here's how they make mai-tai at one hotel bar. Other barkeeps add a cherry to the garnish or float an orchid on the drink. Mai-Tai Royal Hawaiian..Pour into a glass 1 jigger each of light and dark Jamaica rum. Add the juice of 1 lime and half the shell, and a dash each of orgeat syrup, rock candy syrup, and orange Curacao. [Etc.] 1963 San Francisco Sunday Chron. 22 Dec. 22/6 You can sip a mai tai, lunch on mahi mahi..and thus take the most painless tour the islands have to offer. 1973 Newsweek 15 Oct. 22 [Richard Nixon] spent an effervescent night on the town.., dining on mai-tais, crab Rangoon, sweet-and-sour pork and almond duck at Trader Vic's. 1984 Times 19 Dec. G/2 Pubs..are serving Mai Tais and Mint Juleps. 1991 V. BUGLIOSI Sea will Tell i. 17 They stay in glitzy resort hotels, down premixed Mai Tais served by waitresses in synthetic grass skirts, and tap their toes to the canned melodies of Don Ho. 1998 New Yorker 23 Feb. 76/1 CocktailsManhattans, Greyhounds, mai taiswere imperative and drugs were easy to come by.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 15:56:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:56:50 -0500
Subject: Victory has a hundred fathers, defeat is an orphan (1945)
Message-ID: 

   Fred Shapiro probably has this.  FWIW: It's in English here in 1945, not 1946.
   The "10/8/1899" Herald Despatch "hit" on Newspaperarchive.com that mentions President Kennedy is mis-dated a little.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times)
CIANO'S DIARY; NAZIS CALL ON POPE TO STOP B-17 RAIDS Edda Scolds Count for Being Anti-German; Return of Stomach Ailment Causes Duce Pain
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 20, 1945. p. 2 (1 page)
   As always victory finds a hundred fathers, but defeat is an orphan.


(BARTLEBY.COM)
The Columbia World of Quotations.? ? 1996.

NUMBER:
12397

QUOTATION:
Victory has a hundred fathers but defeat is an orphan.

ATTRIBUTION:
Galeazzo Ciano (1903???1944), Italian Fascist leader. journal entry, Sept. 9, 1942. Diario 1939-1943 (1946).

President Kennedy is credited with the same comment in the wake of the Bay of Pigs invasion, April 1961.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 16:41:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:41:57 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1956)
Message-ID: 

  See the ADS-L archives for various forms of this phrase, including the addition "the tough get going."  I had previously posted 1961 for the full phrase.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
DELEGATES LEAVE IMPRINT ON TOMORROW; Key Personalities Live On in Memories of Conventions GOP PHANTOM
MARY ANN CALLAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 24, 1956. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:   _Leahy Stirs Party_
  Former Notre Dame Coach Frank Leahy in seconding Ike's nomination stirred the audience with a motto for football and politics: "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News -  5/2/1959
...bold letters, it read: "WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, let THE TOUGH GET GOING." I think that.....obstacle stand before you. inside you GET GOING. For TOUGHness of spirit Can overcome.....t t 6U'p being TOUGH-minded enoueh to GETS TOUGH for you, let THE i i. i jut __, Tr i'et.....THE smallest, as an impossibility. But THE TOUGH-minded know what Alps. THE experts said..
Lima,  Ohio     Saturday, May 02, 1959   855 k

Salisbury Times -  5/23/1959
...bold letters, it read: "WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, let THE TOUGH GET GOING." I Ihink that.....field or off it. WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH for you, let THE TOUGH inside you GET.....impossibilities." THAT'S WHAT I mean by TOUGH mindedness Marden also tells THE story.....Children's Home at Hazard, 12 years ago. To GET beds and clothing, THEy told THEir car..
Salisbury,  Maryland     Saturday, May 23, 1959   744 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 17:39:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:39:23 -0500
Subject: Chilighetti (1958); Ranger Cookies (1957)
Message-ID: 

CHILIGHETTI

CHILIGHETTI--194 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits

   I was looking through the LOS ANGELES TIMES for "chili" dishes.  I was hoping to find better than this (still no "chimichanga"), but whatever.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Readers' Recipes Found Easy to Prepare, Delicious to Eat
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 8, 1958. p. A5 (1 page) :
Mrs. Joseph Bronson, Monrovia, writes: "Here's my recipe for a casserole dish which combines two favorites, chili and spaghetti.   You can have it ready for the oven before you can say 'Chilighetti' which is the name I've given it."
(...)
      CHILIGHETTI
1 pound ground beef
2 tablespoons shortening
1 large onion, chopped
2 teaspoons chili powder
1 teaspoon salt
2 cups kidney beans
1 1/2 cups uncooked spaghetti
3 cups tomato pure
1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce
2 teaspoons salt (Salt again?--ed.)
1/2 teaspoon pepper
   METHOD:  Melt shortening in large skillet.  Brown ground beef in hot shortening.  Add onion, chili powder and one teaspoon salt.  Saute onion until tender.  Arrange beef mixture, kidney beans and uncooked spaghetti in layers in a two and one-half quart casserole.  Combine tomato juice, Worcestershire sauce, salt and pepper; pour seasoned tomato juice over casserole contents.  Bake at 350 deg. covered, one hour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RANGER COOKIES

   This is a little earlier than I'd posted (1968).


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
There's Still Time to Bake a Fortune; Cookies Provide Wide Scope in Creating Prize Recipes
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 14, 1957. p. D14 (1 page)
   The old-reliable Western Ranger Cookies are wonderful, too, for many variations.
(...)
   RANGER COOKIES
1 cup shortening
1 cup granulated sugar
1 cup brown sugar
2 eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla
2 cups sifted enriched flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 cups quick-cooking oatmeal
2 cups oven-popped rice cereal
2 cups chopped nuts or coconut
   METHOD: Cream shortening and sugars well.  Add eggs and vanilla; blend.  Resift flour with soda and salt; add to egg mixture.  When well mixed add oatmeal, cereal, nuts.  Roll into balls the size of a walnut and place on greased cooky sheet.  Flatten slightly.  Bake at 350 deg. 10 to 12 minutes.  Maked about 20 (illegible--ed.) cookies.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 20 18:13:13 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:13:13 -0500
Subject: Winning Isn't Everything (1950)
Message-ID: 

(ADS-L ARCHIVES)
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Laurence Horn wrote:
> "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."  The bio traced the
> line to UCLA coach Red Sanders (IIRC--I was only half-listening at
> that point) and then played an excerpt from a John Ford movie,
> _Trouble Along the Way_, in which a child--not the ex-big time
> college coach fallen on hard times but maybe his young
> daughter--unmistakably utters the infamous line.

The earliest anyone has found this Red Sanders quote is in the 1953 movie
_Trouble Along the Way_.

Fred Shapiro


   This 1950 LOS ANGELES TIMES citation looks like a good one.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Los Angeles Times)
1.
Charger Job for Sid Rumored Near
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 26, 1959. p. A1 (1 page):
   (Pete--ed.) Elliott's won-and-lost record belies the coaching proverb that "Winning isn't everything.  It is the only thing."

2.
INDIANS FAR FROM BASHFUL AT CHOW
ART ROSENBAUM. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 18, 1950. p. C3 (1 page):
   Here's one on Red Sanders, as told by himself this summer at Cal Poly (San Luis Obispo) physical education workshop.  Speaking about football victories, Sanders told his group: "Men, I'll be honest.  Winning isn't everything.  (Long pause.)  Men, it's the only thing!"  (Laughter.)

3.
THE SPORTS PARADE; Collapse of Our Local Football Teams May Cause All-Year Club to Take Some Kind of Drastic Action
BRAVEN DTER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1937. p. A16 (1 page) :
   It's all very well for you to say that winning isn't everything and that Tom Howard Spaulding is a good guy but there are more than 2,000,000 people around Los Angeles who have a lot of pride in this section of the State and they're getting pretty tired of seeing their colors trampled under foot come every Saturday afternoon.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lancaster Eagle Gazette -  3/10/1960
...Base KOs Sparse In Chicago Ring Scraps WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING A few weeks ago when.....increasing his skill at the game so tha: he ISN'T strictly a shooter, Wednesdav {ne c..
Lancaster,  Ohio     Thursday, March 10, 1960   713 k

Frederick Post -  11/17/1927
...of the word, universal serHowerer, since WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING from the collegiate.....Starring Complete Change Of Program; EVERYTHING New Including TOMORROW..
Frederick,  Maryland     Thursday, November 17, 1927   552 k

Ironwood Daily Globe -  11/19/1927
...teum Is stale and suffers, c Howvcr, since WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING fi'om the..
Ironwood,  Michigan     Saturday, November 19, 1927   656 k


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Mar 20 19:19:03 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:19:03 -0800
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
In-Reply-To: <1f1.1bd78dd7.2d8ccdad@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 19, 2004, at 2:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> In a message dated 3/19/04 3:03:57 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>
>
>> ron butters has noted
>> adjective "dick" (as in "so dick") and adjective "suck" (as in "how
>> suck"), and larry horn has chimed in with [british] adjective "wank"
>> (as in "really wank"), and it seems extremely unlikely that these
>> three
>> innovative adjectives and adjective "w(h)ack" have a common source.
>> it
>> is not, in fact, at all clear that they have similar semantics (beyond
>> their all involving negative judgments) or similar syntax.
>>
>
> What I was implying (not very clearly, because still somewhat inchoate
> in my
> own mind) was that there could be an interactive process here, based
> partly on
> phonology. That is to say, suppose that speakers associate "That is so
> wack"
> (or "whack"--how many people actually aspirate /w/ these days?) with
> "wacked"
> and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational
> suffix as
> a rule for the cool (hearing it first in counterculture contexts,
> where it
> apparently first arose). These would-be cool people would then
> generalize the
> cool rule to other /k/-final pejorative stems, i.e., "dick," "suck,"
> "fuck," and
> even "wank." (Of course, this use of "so" is in itself a cool rule or
> set of
> rules.)
>
> One would predict that we would begin to get constructions such as
> "That is
> so jerk" (especially since appositive "jerk" is already possible, as
> in "As it
> turns out, marrying a millionaire was a jerk idea."...

cool.  there's also adjective "prick":
   "LA is so prick," the musician chortles.
   Hey! You don't have to be so prick.
   When I find out what being 'so prick' is, i'll stop being it...

i've had no success finding clear adjectival uses of "cock", "jack", or
"whoop", however.  but there's a lot of noise in the searches.

the closest i got for "jack" was the following:
   It causes the really talented bands to "sell out" or cop a really
"jack" attitude.
which i read as involving the noun "jack" 'money' (though goodness
knows i could be wrong).

the scorecard so far: YES on adjective
   w(h)ack, dick, suck, fuck, wank, jerk, stink, prick
but NO (so far) on adjective
   cock, jack, whoop.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 01:16:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:16:03 -0500
Subject: Nacatamales (1945); Ranger Cookies (1950); Hard Knocks School
 (1878)
Message-ID: 

RANGER COOKIES (continued)

   I forgot to check Newspaperarchive.
   FWIW: Every Newspaperarchive "chilighetti" hit is from the 1970s.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Cedar Rapids Gazette - 9/11/1955
...Mr. and Mrs. Royal Russell Their favorites: RANGER COOKIES. 1 cup shortening 1 cup white.....in Wisconsin. I to keep a supply of COOKIES oni Mr. and Mrs. Charles ZimmerJ hand.....warm milk. Add nutmeats and vanilla. Drop COOKIES on greased cooky sheet and bake at..
Cedar Rapids, Iowa   Sunday, September 11, 1955  537 k

Kossuth County Advance - 9/25/1952
...Farm TOMATO JUICE tr 29c fOA SUGGESTS RANGER COOKIES GRANULATED SUGAR 99c 10-lb Bag..
Algona, Iowa   Thursday, September 25, 1952  698 k

Lethbridge Herald - 3/31/1951
...Makes 4 dozen 2-inch COOKIES. RANGER COOKIES enriched allBrown sugar, 1 cup.....KEEP THE COOKIE JAB FILLED Spicy Fruit COOKIES Dried prunes, moist Salt, teaspoon..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Saturday, March 31, 1951  665 k

Bradford Era - 12/14/1951
...past 15 years. Mrs. Guyer ces-: cribes her RANGER COOKIES ss ones -which well and are.....who hear a tinual cry for homemade COOKIES are offered a suggestion J from Mrs.....ally good to mail to servicemen. j RAXGER COOKIES I I Ingredients: 1 cup shortening. 1.....you want to pay. o6e nc. KIDDIES CHRISTMAS COOKIES SANTAS TREES STARS BELLS Munchy..
Bradford, Pennsylvania   Friday, December 14, 1951  661 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 1/21/1950
...Continued from Preceding Page RANGER COOKIES 1 cup butter 1 cup sugar 1 cup brown.....in an oven heated to 350 degrees. Spritz COOKIES 1 cup butter or margarine ?i cup.....or a damp cloth over the bot torn) or the COOKIES'' may be pui through a cookie press..
Iowa City, Iowa   Saturday, January 21, 1950  275 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 3/18/1952
...been favorites in our home for years, with RANGER COOKIES a close second. Been some time.....since I gave you that RANGER cookie recipe, hasn't it? Maybe.....wonder what would be the favorite of al Kj COOKIES, if we could get a vote Ion it? My.....some French chocolate to drink with the COOKIES or do you prefer cold milk? French..
Iowa City, Iowa   Tuesday, March 18, 1952  514 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
NACATAMAL

NACATAMALES--993 Google hits, 202 Google Groups hits

   I briefly looked into Nicaraguan materials at the NYPL today.  The revised OED (now well into the letter "n") doesn't have this?  There will be _no_ explanation anywhere of the regional tamale names--even though they're also used by English speakers?

(GOOGLE)
http://www.culinary-cooking-schools-institutes.com/history_tamales.html
   The different regional names for tamales are:

Nicaragua
Nacatamal

Guatemala
Paches and Chuchitos

Bolivia and Ecuador
Humita

Columbia
Bollo

Cuba, Mexico, South and Central America
Tamal

Michoacan, Mexico
Corunda

Veracruz, Mexico
Zacahull

Venezuela
Hallaca


MANAGUA (One in a series of pamphlets on Central America--ed.)
Pan American Union, Washington, D. C.
1945
Pg. 12:  One of the attractions of the business section is the large market on Calle Central, a block east of Avenida Roosevelt.  Practically all the products of Nicaragua are to be found here.  One may buy pork and poultry and such staples as beans, rice, tortillas, and frijoles, and the Nicaraguan form of hot tamales, _nacatamales_, which are deliciously cooked in banana leaves.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS

   I was just reading SOCKS ON A ROOSTER: LOUISIANA'S EARL K. LONG (1967) and it says that the Longs went to the School of Hard Knocks.  OED has "School of Hard Knocks" from 1912 (George Ade).  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "20C."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
THE UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS.
Advocate of Peace (1847-1906). Washington: Nov/Dec 1878. Vol. 9, Iss. 5; p. 2 (1 page)

BELLE FRASER'S GIRLHOOD.; GOING FOR A DRIVE. MISS MINNETTE.
HOLLIS FREEMAN. Godey's Lady's Book (1883-1892). New York: May 1887. Vol. 114, Iss. 683; p. 453 (8 pages)
Pg. 456: "Ah, yes, but I have received my outside coating of wisdom by graduating in the college of hard knocks.  There's nothing like that to take the gilt off your best peep-show."

KENNEL.; DOGS OF TO-DAY--THE AIREDALE TERRIER.
NOMAD. Outing, an Illustrated Monthly Magazine of Recreation (1885-1906). New York: Jul 1899. Vol. 34, Iss. 4; p. 415 (2 pages)
Pg. 415:  The colliers were a rough, hardy set, ready for anything, and their favorite dogs were bright disciples of the school of hard knocks.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Hornellsville Weekly Tribune - 2/28/1890
...or Harvard you got in tbe UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. Go among successful merchants.....OF persons did After ancxpot-itiijii by Dr. OF passages OF Scripture descriptive OF the.....What the greatest OF Englishmen said OF England is true OF America and OF all.....and an_ awakening OF great roll, men OF the jien, IIIRII OF wit, men OF power, if..
Hornellsville, New York   Friday, February 28, 1890  841 k

Sandusky Daily Register - 2/24/1890
...or Harvard you got in the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. Go among successful merchants.....an exposition by Dr. Talmago OF passages OF Scripture deacriptivo OF the influence OF.....Fullness OF Blood In the Head, Acidity OF the Stomach, Nausea, Heartburn, Disgust OF.....OF human happiness, these firmest props OF the duties OF men and citizens. The mere..
Sandusky, Ohio   Monday, February 24, 1890  1319 k

Daily Gazette - 11/11/1885
...unt Ithey graduate at the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS. The old poets used to talk OF a.....a? it is iu the difference OF the endowment OF men with that great attribute OF stick'.o.....Buffalo Commercial] An old resident OF one OF the villages OF this county, name.....s general stock OF merchandise: 160 acres OF land, in Stark county. Ind. 22O acres OF..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Wednesday, November 11, 1885  787 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/13/1905
...to "get there" by attending the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS. Certainly the two most.....practical success." He was wise with the HARD wisdom OF the world; and he had the.....good for that part OF the state. Thr story OF Olinghouse is a story OF pluck and.....is well worth the careful consideration OF all young men, and is OF especial..
Reno, Nevada   Tuesday, June 13, 1905  427 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN STRAIGHT

   The HDAS has 1928 for a "Mexican flush," but no "Mexican straight."  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "20C."


SOCKS ON A ROOSTER:
LOUISIANA'S EARL K. LONG
by Richard B. McCaughan
Baton Rouge: Claitor's Book Store
1967
Pg. 182:  Long telephoned David Rankin and invited the boy to visit him in Louisiana.  Long related:

   If he stays here--Baton Rouge--any time he wants to go home, he can go.  That kid is smart.  You know, he beat me once in a poker game with a Mexican straight.* ... Mexican straight; that's not all you learn while you're in Texas.**

* A Mexican straight is 2-4-6-8-10.
** _Morning Advocate_, July 2, 1959, p. 10-A.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 02:02:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:02:35 -0500
Subject: Oprah's "Tossed Salad" of sex slang
Message-ID: 

   Howard Stern has mentioned that Oprah Winfrey can do the same thing--or worse--and not received any FCC fine at all.  The issue involves sex slang, so it may be of interest to record (although the Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has most of these terms).


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=405BDDE5.78ED%40captainjanks.tk&rnum=1

From: Tom Cipriano (captainjanks at captainjanks.tk)
Subject: IN CASE
View: Complete Thread (4 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.howard-stern
Date: 2004-03-20 03:00:37 PST

WARNING- this page contains EXTREME graphic content transcribed from the "Oprah Winfrey Show"
 FILE AN FCC COMPLAINT NOW!
 On 10/02/03, and 03/18/04 at approximately 4:36 PM EST. the "Oprah Winfrey Show" aired a segment in which Oprah held a conversation with a guest(Michelle Burford) on her show that I was outraged at, and considered indecent. So indecent, that the powers that be on the "Howard Stern Show" would not allow Howard Stern to play a tape of the segment on his show. Therefore, I ask fellow Howard Stern fans, and anyone reading this to register a complaint with the FCC reporting the incident. The FCC asks that you provide the name of the show, in this case the "Oprah Winfrey Show", heard in New York on ABC,(check your local listings for the station in your area) and a transcript. The lady who is speaking with Oprah is Michelle Burford, a writer for "O" magazine, (Oprah's magazine) and had interviewed fifty 13 year old kids regarding sex. She has no medical credentials that are stated on the website, on the show, or in the transcript.
   Here is a transcript of the conversation:

WINFREY: Yeah. So you say--let's talk about that secret language, Michelle.
Ms. BURFORD: Yes.
WINFREY: I didn't know any of this.
Ms. BURFORD: I have--yeah, I have--I've gotten a whole new vocabulary, let me tell you.
WINFREY: I did not know any of this. Does this--does this mean I am no longer hip?
REED: ...(Unintelligible).
Ms. BURFORD: Salad-tossing. I'm thinking cucumbers, lettuce, tomatoes. OK?  I am definitely not hip.
WINFREY: OK--so--OK, so what is a salad toss?
Ms. BURFORD: OK, a tossed salad is--get ready; hold on to your underwear for this one--oral anal sex. So oral sex to the anus is what tossed salad is.  Hi, Mom. OK. A rainbow party is an oral sex party. It's a gathering where oral sex is performed. And a--rainbow comes from--all of the girls put on lipstick and each one puts her mouth around the penis of the gentleman or gentlemen who are there to receive favors and makes a mark in a different place on the penis, hence, the term rainbow.  So...
WINFREY: OK. And so what does pre--so what does pretty boy mean? A pretty boy.
Ms. BURFORD: Pretty boy is a sexually active boy, someone who's been fairly promiscuous. So it isn't maybe what you would have thought pretty boy meant in your time.
WINFREY: And dirty means what? Does dirty mean...
Ms. BURFORD: Dirty mean a diseased--means a diseased girl. And along with that the term that some teens are using to mean HIV is High Five, `high' and then the Roman numeral `V.' High Five. So if you got High-Fived by Jack, you got diseased by Jack. You got--you got HIV.
WINFREY: It means he gave you HIV.
Ms. BURFORD: He gave you HIV. Yeah.
WINFREY: So that means you shouldn't...
REED: Really.
WINFREY: ...go around saying to little kids anymore--I was talking to a little boy and I went `Give me high five.'
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah.
WINFREY: You shouldn't--you shouldn't do that anymore. Right.
Ms. BURFORD: And if suddenly your kids want to make salad all the time, you should be wondering. OK.
WINFREY: Yeah. OK. And boo--booty call is pretty common, right?
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah, that's--yeah, that's pretty pervasive.  Yeah, that's an early morning or late-at-night call for sex that involves no real relationship. Maybe 2 AM, guy calls girl, and says, `Meet me at so and so location, we have sex, we leave,' booty call. You all got that, right?
WINFREY: Y'all knew that one, right? OK.
Ms. BURFORD: And then there's the term hoovering, which is a term used for a girl having an abortion, the--the--yes, you get--you get the reference, the sucking of a Hoover vacuum. She's having herself vacuumed out, so to speak.  So these were just a few of the terms that I, you know, heard teens referring to. I got a whole new vocabulary book. You know...
REED: So did I.
Ms. BURFORD: Really.
WINFREY: So what happened when they would say she got hoovered to you?
Ms. BURFORD: She got...
WINFREY: Well, if somebody--if you're talking to somebody in the beginning before you got so hip here...
Ms. BURFORD: Right. Yeah. Before I got hip.
WINFREY: ...yeah, what would you--what would you--if somebody said she got hoovered, you would just say, `What do you mean by that?'
Ms. BURFORD: I said--yeah, `What do you mean? What do you mean?  What does hoovering mean?' And she'd tell me.
WINFREY: Are rainbow parties pretty common?
Ms. BURFORD: I think so. At least among the 50 girls that I talked to, this was--this was pervasive.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Ms. BURFORD: Yeah.
WINFREY: And--and what are the guys saying about all this?
Ms. BURFORD: Well, I didn't talk to guys, but certainly in the experiences that I've had in talking to the boys, they don't see sex--and this should be no surprise to any of us--in the same way that girls see it. They don't see it as a way to feel closer or to have the kind of intimacy that maybe a girl is looking for. They see it as a way to earn stripes or be cool with the other guys.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Ms. BURFORD: And let me tell you something. Girls are doing more giving than they are getting. They are giving the boys the oral sex. Absolutely. Some of the boys aren't even asking them for it and they are offering it.

                Copyright 2003 HARPO PRODUCTIONS INC www.oprah.com
                                        OCTOBER 02, 2003

                                         **************
                   You can hear an wav file of this transcript by linking HERE.  This show aired twice- the first time on October 2nd, 2003, and again on March 18, 2004, at approximately 36 minutes past the hour WE NEED EVERYONE THAT READS THIS TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH THE FCC!
(...)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Mar 21 02:55:30 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:55:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Prioritize"
In-Reply-To: <52236FBD.14F43E9A.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

prioritize (OED 1973)

1961 _Wash. Post_ 5 Mar. E2 (ProQuest)  But in all fairness, the District
could do a better job of presenting its program.  It often fails to
"prioritize" its requests, to use a silly word that just came to my
attention the other day as the latest contribution to government jargon.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 03:11:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:11:03 -0500
Subject: Howard Stern's "blumpkin," "balloon knot," "David Copperfield"
Message-ID: 

   This is the other entry in this week's FCC debate.  VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.
   (OT TO SELF:  And they locked up...Martha Stewart?)


http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=21312
Content Behind Stern Fine? "Blumpkins" and "Balloon Knots"

March 19, 2004

The nearly three-year-old broadcast that brought Howard Stern his first indecency fine since June '98 involved Stern and his crew defining terms like "blumpkin," "balloon knot" and "the David Copperfield" -- phrases used in regular rotation by Opie & Anthony before they were cancelled by Infinity in August 02.

The content cited in Thursday's $27,500 fine against Infinity was a July 26, 2001 Stern show that triggered a complaint by a listener of Stern affiliate WKRK/Detroit. That's the same station facing a $27,000 forfeiture for Deminski & Doyle, a fine recently upheld by the FCC.

Infinity maintains that the Stern material wasn't actionably indecent and didn't contain any description or depiction of sexual or excretory organs or activities in a patently offensive manner.  Infinity also argues that the Commission's generic indecency definition is unconstitutional.

In previous rulings, the Commission's fined not only the station cited in the complaint but others that aired the same broadcast.  So far, it's only fined 'KRK -- something that's not sitting well with Commissioners Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein.  Both chided the Commission for not fining other Stern affiliates in their statements, with Copps suggesting  that 'KRK's indecency track record warranted more "than a slap on the wrist."

Here's the transcript from the FCC notice:

Radio Station:  WKRK-FM, Detroit, MI
Date/Time of Broadcast:  July 26, 2001, 6:30 a.m. to 7:30 a.m.
Material Broadcast:  The Howard Stern Show

HS:  Howard Stern
RQ:  Robin Quivers
MV:  Male Cast Member

HS:  I said to Mark Wahlberg yesterday, had he ever gotten a blumpkin from a girl and everyone around here is acting like they don't know what it is.

RQ:  You're the only nutcase who does.

MV:  I said "blumpkin" on the "Norm Show" and the network censor, we told him we just made the word up.  He goes, "that's definitely not a real word right?"  We go, no,no,no. And I said it, I yelled out at a hooker in a cab.

HS:  What do you say to her, "how about a blumpkin?"

MV:  I go "honey, how much for a blumpkin?"

HS:  Right.

MV:  And uh the network censor never heard of it.  And he goes if you just made it up it's fine but if it's a real thing we can't have it.  So it's aired, it's been on ABC, it's like the dirtiest thing ever on television.

HS:  Yeah, but nobody knows what it is.  A blumpkin? I can explain it cleanly.

RQ:  There's nothing clean about a blumpkin.

HS:  Well, a blumpkin is receiving oral sex while you're sitting on a toilet bowl if you are a man.  You're sitting on a toilet bowl and uh, while you're evacuating you receive your oral.

RQ:  Ick.

HS:  And uh, then, what did I say yesterday too you didn't understand?  Balloon knot?

RQ:  Yes, I don't know what that is.  Somebody said to me "is that the funniest thing ever?" and I was like "what is that?"

HS:  A balloon knot?

RQ:  I didn't want to show my ignorance, I laughed too.

HS:   A balloon knot?  I'm gonna post these on a web site?

RQ:  Yeah, we need a dictionary for this show.

HS:  A balloon knot is when you bend over and I can see up right up your old?

RQ:  Up the wazoo?

HS:  Up the wazoo and uh, you know that's a balloon knot that you see.  That's called a "balloon knot."

RQ:  Really, I did not know that.

HS:  Think about it, it looks like a balloon knot.

RQ:  I don't know.  Oh? you know what?

HS:  Tie up a balloon.

RQ:  I'm just thinking of a balloon knot?

MV:  It all makes sense, Robin, come on.

HS:  And uh, what else did I say?  "Nasty Sanchez," you didn't know what that was.

RQ:  Oh, I don't even want to know half the time what these things are?

HS:  That I'd have to post on the internet.

RQ:  'Cause there've been a number of terms used lately.  Would you do?  'cause KC's always blurtin' them out.

HS:  "Strawberry shortcake"

RQ:  "Strawberry shortcake" I've never heard of.  "Dirty Sanchez"

HS:  "Nasty Sanchez."

RQ:  What is the others KC?

MV:  I heard a new one the other day.  It was the "David Copperfield."

HS/RQ:  That's right.

MV:  Okay, do you want to explain it, since I...  When you're goin' like a dog?

HS:  Right.

MV:  ?and you're about to finish and instead you don't finish, you spit on her and then you turn around and when she turns her face around then you go?  So it's kind of like an illusion?

HS:  Right.

MV:  to David Copperfield.

RQ:  Sleight of hand.

HS:  Misdirection.

MV:  Classic misdirection.

HS:  You trick her.  There's a million of them, but uh, I'll post them on the web.

RQ:  Yes, because people need to know.  These aren't in the regular dictionary.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 17:36:42 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:36:42 EST
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
Message-ID: 

A.
One thing that comes to mind is the old slang term BOSS, surely stemming from 
the verb (or noun), but a slang adjectival for a long time. So the shift is 
clearly not limited to words ending in /k/. at least historically.

B.
I Googled for a number of different of "cock" combinations, and a few worked. 
Part of the difficulty with this kind of research is that "cock" appears with 
a number of different words in nonsense pornography leaders (e.g., "cock 
idea") so it takes forever to get to any real examples. And then, of course, it is 
often the case that the word in question is undoubtledly (or probably) being 
used attributatively, not adjectivially. But I did find the followingh 
likelycandidates:

1.
I found this at , which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be adjectival, 
not attribtive:

"Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely cock 
idea!"

2.
>From the same website, but <
http://www.talkingcock.com/html/article.php?sid=973>

like the line from the movie, "it's a real COCK idea, man!" =D

3.
Yes, these are both from Singapore, and it seems that adjective cock is found 
in Singapore English, as the following, from an online Singapore swearing 
glossary, indicates (at ):

How to swear, insult, cuss and curse in Singlish!
 Singlish language swear words and phrases and their English translations.
 (Singapore recognizes four official languages: English, Mandarin, Malay and 
Tamil. Singaporeans also speak a peculiar brand of English called "Singlish". 
This mixes English with Chinese dialects (mostly Hokkien) and some Malay.) <
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/singlish.htm>

Singlish Swearing   English Translation
Hong Gan                 Get fucked!
Kgum Lan                Whatever the hell for? (lit. Suck balls)
...
Bo Ji / Bo Lum Pa     No balls
Gan Piah                   Fuck the wall
Gan Di Du                 Fuck a spider
Hor Gui Gan              Fucked by ghost
Hor Gau Gan             Fucked by dog
Lan Jiao Lang          Cock person (Jerk / Bastard)
Kena sai Disgraced! (lit. to be stained by shit)
Chee Bye Chwee       Pussy mouth
ETC.

4.
Here is what seems to be a fairly good candidate from the US, but they are 
admittedly few and far between (from Morel - Life/Blogger 6/01-7/03 at <
http://morelworld.com/oldlife.html>): 

july 18, 2002-- the band just left. Things are going well . Things are also 
hard. What is important isn't necessarily what you want. Its hard to pass up 
what you want for what is important. . What is home? I guess home is the people 
around you. I am home right now. "Kid got the handshake- kid make the earth 
quake and the dream lets me down...you shake a storm up-I'll turn the porn up- 
I'm cool when you're around"
 june 20,2002 -- my friend Jack Pierson came down to visit and take pictures 
of the band. We all had a good time hanging out. I'll post some pics later 
this week.Working on a new song. Going to go to the beach to chill for a few 
days.
 june 14, 2002-- 3:00 am-- the band came over-- things unraveled as the night 
progressed- at least on my end. Everything I'm writing about is wrapped up in 
the band. All of my usual cock attitude has lost its way lately-and I'm into 
it.

5. 
Another good candidate for adjectival "cock" is in the following DVD review, 
in which "cock attitude" is used to describe a yung woman (at <
http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/691.php>):


?Shadow Skill
Released By:Manga Entertainment

Running time:120 minutes
Reviewed By:Chris Beveridge

...


In a war torn world of deadly conflict, one small group of heroes stand 
against the forces of darkness, armed with only two weapons: their unswerving 
dedication to good and the superhuman martial art known as the Shadow Skill. For 
fourteen year old Gau, it is time once again for him to return to the graves of 
his parents, murdered by bandits when he was just ten. In the company of his 
adoptive sister Ella, Gau quickly comes to realize that his journey is more 
than a pilgrimage, and that his combat abilities as a student fo the Karuda 
school of martial arts are about to be pushed to the breaking point. Will he ever 
discover the secret of the Shadow Skill?


Made up of three OVA's and an epilogue OVA, Shadow Skill is another tale 
delivered to us by Hiroshi Negishi, one of the more controversial directors out 
there depending on your point of view.

...

Content: (please note that content portions of a review may contain spoilers)


Shadow Skill is the story of Gau Ban and his adoptive older sister Ella Ragu. 
We're introduced to young fourteen year old Gau training near the city where 
his older adoptive sister is about to go into the arena to fight for the title 
of becoming a Sevalle. The Kurada section of the world has evolved into a 
warrior based society over the past 2000 years and during these competitions, the 
winner is bestowed the title and honor of Sevalle, which is the name of those 
who ruled.

After a brief encounter with someone who was watching Gau train in a 
mysterious fighting mode, he heads to the arena to watch the even. Ella's got the cock 
attitude of a seventeen year old whose a master in the Shadow Skill, a rare 
and powerful fighting technique. She's going up against Baslek, a rather 
imposing and tall beefy creature who keeps on fighting even after losing entire 
limbs.

6.
"Big-cock" seems to be adjectival in the following album review (at<
http://www.musicdish.com/mag/index.php3?id=4001>):

 The Black Halos - The Violent Years
Sub Pop
 By: Holly Day (Associate Writer)
2001-06-21
 Artist: The Black Halos
Title: The Violent Years
Label: Sub Pop (www.subpop.com)
P.O. Box 20645, Seattle, WA 98102
Format: CD, 39 minutes
 Cool, retro, noisy, garage punk rock drawing heavily on the foundation the 
Ramones and the New York Dolls laid down, with lots of big cock attitude and 
awesome, sloppy lead guitar that barely stretches past the three-chord limit of 
these songs. The songs are fun to listen to, but it's sometimes hard to tell 
one song from the next, they're so similar (excluding the notable cover of Joy 
Division's "Warsaw", which is, to be honest, an awfully hard song to fuck up), 
and even have similar themes running through them, most notably, the idea 
that "the underground isn't the underground any more" and numerous references to 
people selling out, almost as if these songs are the bitter, sarcastic answer 
to the questions of identity and culture posed by the first generation of punk 
rock.

No time now to explore more!!!!


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Sun Mar 21 17:51:26 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:51:26 +0000
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
found this at

>  artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
> adjectiva= l,=20
> not attribtive:
>
> "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
> cock=20 idea!"


I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my preferred
plural of penis).

British English has the word _cack_, which means 'feces' or 'to defecate
in' (e.g., _cack one's pants_).  If you google 'cack idea', you'll get lots
of examples from the UK and Australia.  It may be that 'cock' is how it's
spelt in Singapore English--or that this writer has misspelt it or
folk-etymologied it over to 'cock' (if they didn't know 'cack').

Incidentally, this word always comes up when I discuss the word 'khaki'
with English people (it comes up a lot...).  In the UK, it's pronounced
like US 'car key'--with a definite /r/ in it (though NODE doesn't show
this).  The t-shirt shop round the corner from my house has even spelt it
'kharki' in their ad.  When I've asked why there's an 'r' in it, I've been
told that otherwise it would sound like 'cocky', which would be confusing.
I point out that Americans get round this by pronouncing it with an /ae/,
and they point out that that would sound like _cacky_ 'shitty' in British
English.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 18:28:13 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:28:13 EST
Subject: Singapore COCK is probably not CACK
Message-ID: 

I certainly wouldn't want to rule out the possiblity that Singapore "cock" is 
sometimes fecal rather than penile. However, the Singapore slang spelling 
with "o" rather than "a" would seem to me to indicate a rounded vowel, whereas 
the fecal word is universally pronounced with an unrounded vowel.

Moreover, the same website distinguishes sharply between "cack" and "cock", 
as the following entries make clear:

cack noun
1. Shit.
2. Nonsense.
3. Lies.
...
cock breath noun
One whose breath smells of cock.
cockholster noun
A pejorative term for a sexually promiscuous woman.
cock jockey noun
1. A promiscuous gay male.
2. A promiscuous woman.
cocksucker noun
A mean or despicable person.
cockweasel noun
1. An annoying person.
2. A promiscuous woman.

Admitedly, "cockbreath" and maybe "cockweasel" are possibly ambiguous, but 
cetainly not "cock jockey" and "cockholster," wherein "cock" can only be penile.

I didn't examine the web site too closely, but it is obvious that the 
compilers have put quite a bit of care into it. I'm fairly convinced that they would 
not confuse their penises (or, if they don't personally have them the penises 
in their lives, if any) with their feces.

In other words, an absolutely cock idea is not the same thing as an 
absolutely cack idea. By the way, many Americans also have "ka-ka" or "ca-ca" for feces 
(as in Spanish). Of course, many Americans pronounce "cock" = penis with an 
unrounded vowel, but I doubt that that is too important to the situation in 
Singapore.


In a message dated 3/21/04 1:01:54 PM, M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK writes:


> --On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
> found this at
> 
> >  > artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
> > adjectiva= l,=20
> > not attribtive:
> >
> > "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
> > cock=20 idea!"
> 
> 
> I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my preferred
> plural of penis).
> 
> British English has the word _cack_, which means 'feces' or 'to defecate
> in' (e.g., _cack one's pants_).? If you google 'cack idea', you'll get lots
> of examples from the UK and Australia.? It may be that 'cock' is how it's
> spelt in Singapore English--or that this writer has misspelt it or
> folk-etymologied it over to 'cock' (if they didn't know 'cack').
> 
> Incidentally, this word always comes up when I discuss the word 'khaki'
> with English people (it comes up a lot...).? In the UK, it's pronounced
> like US 'car key'--with a definite /r/ in it (though NODE doesn't show
> this).? The t-shirt shop round the corner from my house has even spelt it
> 'kharki' in their ad.? When I've asked why there's an 'r' in it, I've been
> told that otherwise it would sound like 'cocky', which would be confusing.
> I point out that Americans get round this by pronouncing it with an /ae/,
> and they point out that that would sound like _cacky_ 'shitty' in British
> English.
> 
> Lynne
> 
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> 
> Department of Linguistics and English Language
> Arts B133
> University of Sussex
> Falmer
> Brighton BN1 9QN
> >From UK:? (01273) 678844
> Outside UK: +44-1273-678844
> 
> 


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar 21 18:59:44 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:59:44 -0800
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1079891486@artspc0470.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 21, 2004, at 9:51 AM, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> --On Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:36 pm -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:> I
> found this at
>
>> > artid=3D33>, which comes from Singapore; "cock" here appears to be
>> adjectival, not attribtive:
>>
>> "Yah, I heard about Ah Seng. I'm not surprised. It was an absolutely
>> cock=20 idea!"
>
>
> I'm betting that this has more to do with feces as with penes (my
> preferred
> plural of penis).

(an idea that lynne then defends.)

while we're on this soiled subject, i note that there are a fair number
of occurrences of adjective "shit", as in "how shit a".  many are
clearly british --

   ... anything. But for wank shafts like yourself to just stand there
and
  tell ppl how shit a band is after one gig takes the fucking piss. ...
  www.drownedinsound.com/articles/3811.html

but some are american --

... skatings there for you to skate not to sit on your hole and write
how shit a
  product is ME. Me sucks. You. Anyone who buys one of those kits is a
dick. ...
  www.skateboardingsucks.com/139.php

(i note with amusement that my google query for "how shit a" citations
was immediately catalogued on the website.  also that the slogan of
Skateboarding Sucks is "Crailtaps?  Fuck That, Roast Beef Early
Grabs!", an expression of which the only part i can interpret is "fuck
that".)

and a few even have the "of" with exceptional degree modifiers --

... Physics...what a fucking nightmare, I hate my teacher so much, the
fucker
  can't even teach, I cannot even stress how shit of a teacher he is. ...
  www.livejournal.com/users/chali/970.html

there are parallel examples with "how crap (of) a", for example:

... dress up as Shaggy. Wow! That would of got me to go see that film
regardless
  of how crap of a review it was. But it never happened ...
  64.160.250.67/djtoucan/ateam.htm

these are entirely natural developments (roughly parallel to the
history of "fun"): a mass noun used predicatively ("The product is
shit/crap") is open for reinterpretation as an evaluative adjective and
can then appear adnominally as an adjective.

(note that the mass nouns can appear adnominally as *nouns*, even for
me -- but then they're in a compound-noun construction.  i can say "a
shit idea", but that conveys "an idea that is shit" with the
predicative *noun* "shit".  similarly with "a fun time", which i can
say, though i can't say "how fun (of) a time".)

a nice prediction here is that, since the noun "piss" isn't
conventionally used predicatively for evaluation ("That idea is piss"
takes some major interpretive work), we wouldn't expect it to have an
adjective counterpart:  no "how piss (of) a".  i haven't found any such
examples, on webpage searches or newsgroup searches.

to return to "cock", i don't find any relevant examples of "how cock
(of) a".  so i'm somewhat suspicious of some of the examples, which
might be noun-noun compounds.  certainly i'd interpret "big-cock
attitude" that way, as 'attitude of someone who (thinks he) has a big
cock".  probably "cock attitude" also: 'attitude of someone with a
cock, macho attitude'.  of course, such compound uses can serve as a
transition to reinterpretation of the adnominal word as an adjective,
so some varieties might be on their way to "cock" as a true adjective.
("giant" seems to have gone this way for me; i have "a more giant
rally" and "how giant a rally".  i believe that "monster" has gone this
way for some speakers, though not (yet) for me.)

to return to the original point, about "w(h)ack" and its relatives
"suck", "stink", etc.  it's hard to assimilate these developments to
the noun>adjective development of "fun", "giant", "shit", and others.
ron butters has a very interesting idea about a separate path for
"w(h)ack" and its buddies, however.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 21 22:06:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:06:29 EST
Subject: Got up on wrong side of bed (1862)
Message-ID: 

WRONG SIDE OF THE BED--12,700 Google hits, 10,600 Google Groups hits
  
   No, that's not the problem.  The problem was I got up at 4 p.m.  I gotta 
go to some War College tomorrow, you know, the whole ten yards.
   This expression hasn't been historically dated.  The wrong side of the bed 
is usually the wall.
   It's not in OED.  The editors were too busy eating nacatamales.
   OT:  Me and the wife Jennifer Lopez have a four-poster.
    
  
(GOOGLE)
www.bartleby.com
  The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition.  2002.    
get up on the wrong side of the bed 
      
To act unpleasant because the day got off to a bad start: ?You?d better 
avoid the boss today; she got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.?   1 
  
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-wro1.htm
[Q] From Jim on AOL: ?I was hoping you could help me out. You?ve heard about 
getting out of the wrong side of bed? What is considered the wrong side? And 
could you give me a little history on the saying??
[A] The wrong side of the bed is the one that leaves you grumpy and 
unsociable first thing in the morning (my own has two wrong sides). There are many 
similar expressions that begin the wrong side of ..., of which the original seems 
to be wrong side of the blanket for a child born illegitimately. Some others 
are getting on the wrong side of somebody, the wrong side of the law, laughing 
on the wrong side of one?s mouth, and on the wrong side of forty (or thirty, 
or fifty, or almost any age, really).All express the idea that there are good 
and bad aspects of any situation. A well-known American example, the wrong side 
of the tracks, is the only one of the set that seems to be based in a real, 
physical location.Some writers say there was once a superstition that to get 
out of bed on the left side, the sinister side, led to bad luck, but this sounds 
like a well-meaning attempt to explain the mysterious. If there ever was such 
a belief, it?s not reflected in the recorded use of the expression, which is 
actually not that old; it seems to have been derived from another phrase of 
similar type.
    
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mansfield News - 2/25/1910  
...She bas THE uti Don't "Get Up on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED" So OFten. j 
One tiling.....not unlovely habit OF "getting up on THE WRONG SIDE OF ocd" to 
obtain THE mastery over.....center, a dying Confederate soldier ou one SIDE aud 
a weeping woman on THEoTHEr. THE.....would serve THE public, and she would 
servo THE employees OF THE Htorc. THE value OF Hfe..
Mansfield, Ohio Friday, February 25, 1910  935 k    
    
Indianapolis Star - 7/21/1916   
...for 'tis said If one gets out OF THE WRONG SIDE OF BED In THE morning he 
will be grouchy.....but unfortunately chose THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED THE SIDE 
next to THE window, which.....about Lydia E. VegetaEvery BED has a right SIDE 
and a WRONG SIDE, at least so tradition.....Hospital. BED Near Window; Man 
Gets Out WRONG SIDE; ties in Hospital Now JTO1ML WRECK..
Indianapolis, Indiana Friday, July 21, 1916  1065 k     
    
Newark Advocate - 8/7/1905  
...He Is surely raising Ned. It's THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. [Ie is coming 
down to.....ve really cause for dreadIt's THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. Chicago 
News. PARSON'S.....has. got out from THE left 'twas THE WRONG SIDE, sure, instead 
OF THE right SIDE OF THE.....but he refused to be placated. He went to BED 
still sulking, and when he awoke in THE..
Newark, Ohio Monday, August 07, 1905  834 k     
    
Hawaiian Gazette - 9/18/1896    
...against THE wall in getting out THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. R, C. L. 
Perkins, THE.....effort to OF BED as quickly as possible, WRONG SIDE, and, in THE 
darkness bang; up.....on THE door brought THE young man from BED and when told 
that THEre had been a shock.....from some OF THE most remote provinces OF 
Chile. On account OF THE closeiesB OF THE..
Honolulu, Hawaii Friday, September 18, 1896  662 k      
    
Daily Independent - 10/5/1909   
...nolr your true croole gets up on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BED. He has no 
appetite for.....when THE house OF lords was in committee on THE reform bill OF 
18C7. THE clerk OF THE.....Approved THE 29th day OF April 187-1 and THE 
supplements THEreto, for THE charter OF a.....all THE bonetits and privileges OF THE 
aoi OF assembly and its supplements. 119 ;u.w THE..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, October 05, 1909  748 k     
    
Edwardsville Intelligencer - 4/26/1901  
...had evidently gotten out OF BED from THE WRONG SIDE. Something was THE 
matter at least.....water. Since THEn Bob gets out OF THE right SIDE OF THE BED 
when morning comes and 'he.....OFfice In Intelligencer Building, South SIDE OF 
Court House Sauare. J. E. HILLSKOXTER.....OFfice over Bank OF Edwardsville, 
North SIDE Court Square. OFfice telephone 442..
Edwardsville, Illinois Friday, April 26, 1901  725 k    
  
  
(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)
Author: Blackmore, R. D. (Richard Doddridge), 1825-1900.
Title: Alice Lorraine. A tale of the South Downs. By R. D. Blackmore.
Publication date: 1875.
Collection: Making of America Books
Page 120  - 1 term matching "wrong side of the bed" 
   His workmen winked at one another, and said (as soon as he was gone by) 
that he must have got out the wrong side of the bed, or else the old lady had 
been rating of him.
    
  
(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Living age ... / Volume 123, Issue 1589: pp. 449-512 
p. 492 1 match of 'wrong side of the bed' in: Title:    The Living age ... / 
Volume 123, Issue 1589   
Publisher:  The Living age co. inc. etc.    Publication Date:   November 21, 
1874 
City:   New York etc.   Pages:  834 page images in vol. 
(Same as above.  From BLACKWOOD'S MAGAZINE--ed.)
  
  
(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): Victoria, or, The Heiress of Castle Cliffe 
(1862) 1 match in 1 of 142 pages
CHAPTER X. 
for a milliner, or a lady's maid, at once?" / "My dear friend, I am afraid 
you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, you're so uncommon 
savage; but I can overlook that and the few o  
    

(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Print Source:   Clifford and the actress, or, The reigning favorite
Blount, Margaret.
Philadelphia : Peterson, [18--?].   
Pg. 118  "What is the matter with this woman, my friends?"
   "She's got out of the wrong side of the bed, that's all!" cried one.
   "Too 'arly!: added another.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Mar 21 22:15:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:15:13 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_stridden?=
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040316211000.02f167a0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 16, 2004, at 6:12 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:

> How does one explain "dive/dove/dived"? [not my paradigm BTW]

apparently a simple question.  but the answer is interestingly complex.
  [if i were going to have a gravestone, something very much like that
last sentence would have  to be engraved on it.]

the simple answer would be that this is as in stride/strode/strided --
a heteroclite pattern (mixing forms from different paradigms) that is
possible but very unlikely.  what would be required is an irregular
past, plus a past participle that regularizes not according to the most
easily available generalization (the past/pastparticiple
generalization), but all the way back to the pattern of fully regular
verbs (in defiance of the past/pastparticiple generalization), in which
the past participle has the d-suffix.

doug wilson notes that dive/dove/dived isn't his paradigm.  it is,
however, pretty well attested in the u.s.  it isn't my paradigm,
either, but it almost could be.  in contrast, stride/strode/strided
just sounds weird to me, and though i don't doubt that it's attested
for a few speakers, it has nothing like the currency of dive/dove/dived
in the u.s.

in addition, while stride/strode/strode is not infrequent,
dive/dove/dove is (i think) quite rare.

why would there be an asymmetry between the two cases?

the answer lies in history.  stride/strode goes way back, but dive/dove
is (i recall from sources on the subject) a relatively recent
item-by-item analogy (presumably to drive/drove) that replaced the
perfectly regular dive/dived for some (mostly u.s.) speakers.  (the
MWDEU entry for "dove" is quite entertaining.)  so the past participle
"dived" is a relic, maintained in the face of a minor analogy that
replaced the older past tense "dived".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Mar 21 22:19:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:19:07 -0500
Subject: Lobengulous
In-Reply-To: <200403210505.i2L55Q2f008868@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

This afternoon, while my wife and I were browsing in Antique Row in
Philadelphia, my eye was caught by the title on a framed antique colored
cartoon: "A NEW ADJECTIVE". The cartoon was from some printed document
that looked to me late 19th century American; the manager of the store
(Lunacy Antiques) could not provide any more information.

The scene is a tailor's shop; there is a placard reading
          >>>
        Jones
         ---
        Tailor
          -
        Hatter
          <<<

On the left is a portly gentleman with a dark complexion; I didn't
examine the cartoon to see to what degree, if any, the complexion was in
the print, as opposed to the after-applied color. On the right is a
stick-thin tailor bowing obsequiously. The caption reads (speaker
labels, quotation marks, capitalization, and italics as in original):

        >>>
Customer: "You'll find I measure a bit more round the waist than I did
last time you took my measure."

Tailor: "Ah, well, Sir, if I may be allowed to say so, you _are_ a
trifle more -- ah -- more _Lobengulous_ than formerly."
        <<<

The cartoon is signed "J. F. Sullivan".

A Google search for "Lobengulous" yielded no hits. Lemmatizing to
"lobengul" produced nine hits and the suggestion "Did you mean:
lobengula". These two are especially relevant; the first was duplicated
in many other places.

=====

http://www.bartleby.com/65/lo/Lobengul.html
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.  2001.

Lobengula

c.1833-94, king of Matabeleland (now in Zimbabwe). After succeeding his
father (1870), he tried to turn aside the approaches of European
colonizers. In 1888, however, under pressure from Cecil Rhodes, he ceded
his mineral rights in exchange for small payment, and Rhodes used those
concessions to form the British South Africa Company (1889). When
British gold miners began appearing, Lobengula rallied his people and in
1893 attacked the British. The results were disastrous for the Ndebele
(Matabele); Lobengula died while fleeing north.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright ? 2003 Columbia
University Press.

=====

http://csf.colorado.edu/ipe/zimbabwe_seminar/rhodes.html

(Portraits of Rhodes & King Lobengula. The King could well have been the
model for the Customer. The Tailor might have been based on Rhodes, but
I'd have to go back to look at the cartoon.)

On July 11, 1890 the Pioneer Column crossed the Shashi River and entered
Matabeleland. Their mission was to skirt the border of the Ndebele
kingdom and head north to establish a new country beyond the Hunyani
River. The whole expedition was the result of a contract between Cecil
John Rhodes and 23 year old Frank Johnson. The later agreed to organize
the occupation of Mashonaland for ?87,500.

For three years the settlers in Mashonaland enjoyed relative peace, but
a clash with the armies of King Lobengula of the Ndebele was inevitable.
In July 1893, on the pretext of a relatively minor skirmish, the White
Settlers entered Matabeleland in strength. The pride of the Ndebele army
was cut down by the Maxim guns of the invaders and King Lobengula had to
flee from Bulawayo, meeting his death soon after.

=====

So it seems likely that the cartoon dates from the period 1888-1893. The
"new adjective" is evidently a nonce word. Anyone want to look further?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 22 00:13:06 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:13:06 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <92.65d7461.2d8f2caa@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
"cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....

The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
"cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.

I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
(cf "poppycock").

I don't know for sure what "cock idea" means in the Ah Seng cartoon, but I
would tentatively take it to mean "nonsense idea" (cf. "cockamamie" [?]).

In some cases on the Web especially, "cock" may be a variant of -- or an
error for -- "cocky".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 00:28:42 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:28:42 EST
Subject: "Nacatamal," "Rosquillas," "Vaho" and Nicaraguan food;
 "New-Haveners"
Message-ID: 

   Maybe I'll do a trip to Nicaragua + El Salvador and finish up the Western
Hemisphere, but that tour is usually cancelled for lack of interest.
   "Rosquillas" is also not in the OED.  They don't pay me beans for...well,
they don't even pay me beans...Not related to "the Windy City."

ROSQUILLAS--11,900 Google hits, 860 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE)
[RTF] Rosquillas-msg
File Format: Rich Text Format - View as HTML
Rosquillas -msg - 6/20/01. A late-period Spanish pastry which "look like
bagels and taste like biscotti". ... Subject: SC - Rosquillas (recipe). ...
www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/ Rosquillas-msg.rtf - Similar pages


AREA HANDBOOK FOR NICARAGUA
co-authors John Morris Ryan, et al.
Prepared for The American University
by Johnson Research Associates
Research and writing were completed on 17 March 1969
Published July 1970

Pg. 103:  Corn, as the most frequently grown crop in almsot all regions,
serves as the basic ingredient of the rural diet and is prepared in various ways.
It is eaten green, both in the form of tiny ears of corn, _chilotes_, and as
the larger green _elotes_.  After being thoroughly matured, harvested and
dried, it is prepared as _tortillas_, to be found at most meals in every
household.  The _masa_ or corn paste is also prepared into _tamales_, and
_nacatamales_.  The _nacatamal_ is basically similar to the _tamal_, but in addition to the
_masa_ and a small piece of meat, it often includes tomatoes, potatoes, rice,
yuca, chili and some kind of meat of fowl.  There is also a dish called
_rosquillas_ prepared from corn and cheese.
   Various types of drinks are prepared from corn.  _Atol_ is made from the
_masa_ of green corn, and _atolillo_ of dry corn.  _Pinol_ is made of toasted
corn, and _pinolillo_ of toasted corn and cacao.  _Chicha_, fermented from corn
with the addition of crude sugar, is a fairly common drink; equally common is
_cususa_, the distilled _aguardiente_, (liquor) made from _chicha_.  _Cususa_
is prepared by the _campesino_ in clandestine stills which ar found over most
of the countryside.
   In many rural houses of the Pacific belt, a frame of poles is set on the
rafters over the hearth; on this frame are stored the cheeses, salt, and grains
in order to keep them dry and to keep insects and rodents out of them.
Common among the rural population of the highlands are _bunques_, large board boxes
in which corn, sorghum and beans are stored.
Pg. 367 (GLOSSARY):
_atilillo_--Drink  made from dry corn.
_atol_--Drink made from green corn.
_bateas_--Wooden dishes.
_bunques_--Storage bins for foods, Pacific region.
_cantinas_--Bars.
_chicha_--Fermented drink made from corn.
_chilotes_--Ears of green corn.
_cususa_--Distilled liquor made from chica.
_elotes_--Large ears of green corn.
Pg. 368:
_masa_--Corn paste.
_nacatamales_--Dish including meat, corn paste, tomatoes, potatoes, rice,
yuca, chili.
Pg. 369:
_pinole_--Drink made from toasted corn.
_pinolillo_--Drink made from toasted corn and cocoa.
_pulperia_--Small, local store.
_rosquillas_--Dish prepared from corn and cheese.
_tamales_--Meat-filled corn dumpling.
_tortillas_--Corn patties.


NICARAGUA: THE LAND OF SANDINO
by Thomas W. Walker
second edition, revised and updated
Boulder and London: Westview Press
1986
Pg. 78:  Another delightful aspect of Nicaraguan culture is the cuisine.
Again, there are elements of both the universal and the particular.  Like
Mexicans and other Central Americans, Nicaraguans eat corn in the form of
_tortillas_.  _Tortillas_ very in size, color, and thickness from country to country.  In
Nicaragua they are large, thin, and made of finely milled white corn.  They
are often used as a edible utensil in which to wrap barbecued meat, beans, or
whatever one happens to be eating.  Another absolutely essential item in
Nicaraguan cookery is beans.  As elsewhere in Latin America--since most people
cannot afford the regular consumption of animal protein--beans serve as the main
source of protein.  The small red bean to which Nicaraguans are particularly
addicted is refried with rice to produce a delicious dish called _gallo pinto_
(spotted rooster)--a favorite breakfast food of people of all classes.  Like
many other Latin Americans, _nicas_ also enjoy _tamales_.  Their _nacatamal_,
however, has its own particular character.  Wrapped in a pungent leaf from a
banana-like plant rather than a corn husk, it consists of corn _masa_ (dough),
rice, tomatoes, potatoes, chili, cassava root, and often a small piece of meat.
Another very typical Nicaraguan dish is _vaho_, which is prepared by slowly
steaming salted meat and various vegetables in layers over the same banana-like
leaves in a large covered container.  In general, Nicaraguan cuisine is well
worth trying.  Though usually tastefully seasoned, it is seldom hot.  For
lovers of "hot stuff," however, a bottle or bowl of fine, lip-mummifying _salsa de
chile_ (chili sauce) is seldom very far away.
   No discussion of food would be complete without some mention of drink.
The favorite nonalcoholic beverage in Nicaragua is coffee--the best (very good,
indeed) coming from the high country around Matagalpa.  Like othe Latin
Americans, Nicaraguans who can afford it drink their coffee 50-50, with hot milk, at
breakfast and black with sugar during the rest of the day.  Other typical
sweet drinks are made from toasted cacao and green or toasted corn.  In the field
of alcoholic beverages Nicaragua excels.  The typical lightly alcoholic
drinks are beer and the more traditional and indigenous _chicha_, made from (Pg.
79--ed.) fermented corn mash.  The favorite hard liquor is rum, of which
Nicaragua has one of Latin America's very best, _Flor de Cana_ (Flower of the Cane).


NICARAGUA: PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE
by Peter F. Stout
Philadelphia: John E. Potter
1859

Pg. 131:  The standard, I may add the national dishes, are tortillas or
corn-cakes, and frijoles or beans. (...)  Frijoles are beans of a different flavor
and appearance from those of our latitude.  They are small, and in color
ranging from white to black.  Tortillas, frijoles, and hard-boiled eggs (Pg.
132--ed.) comprise the Bill of Fare of every Nicaraguan posada;...
(No "tamales"--ed.)

Pg. 132:  The air was cool, the road level, the sun had not yet risen, and it
was a delightful beginning to a day which we knew full well would be a
"scorcher."
(OED has 1874 for "scorcher"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  The pine-apples, particularly, are very luscious, the nisperos
remarkably fine, and the oranges sweet and cheap.
(The December 2003 revised OED has "nispero" from 1858, then 1874--ed.)


NICARAGUA:
ITS PEOPLE, SCENERY, MONUMENTS, RESOURCES, CONDITION, AND PROPOSED CANAL;...
by E. G. Spuier
a revised edition
New York: Harper & Brothers
1860
First AMS edition published in 1973

Pg. 51:  The boats used upon the river for carrying freight and passengers
are exaggerated canoes, called _bongos_.

Pg. 51:  These boats have a small space near the stern, called the "_chopa_,"
covered with a board roof, a thatch of palm leaves, or with hides, which is
assigned to the passengers.

Pg. 64:  Every bongo, on leaving the interior, takes on board a large number
of plantains, not yet fully ripe, and which are therefore called _verdes_.
These are detached from the stalk, "corded up" in the bow of the boat, and
constitute the principal reliance of the men.  A few, that are nearly or quite
ripe, called _maduras_, are also taken on board for immediate use.  Besides these,
there is a box of jerked beef, or what the Americans ironically call _yard
beef_,--i. e. beef cut in long strips and dried in the sun.  Some bottles of
_manteca_ (lard), or a quantity of kidney fat and a bag of rice are added, and
then the substantial supplies for the voyage are complete.  The cookery is very
simple.  Stakes are driven in the ground to support the kettle, in which is
first put a portion of fat, next a layer of _platanos verdes_ from which the
skin has been stripped, then a layer of beef cut in small pieces, a calabash of
rice, some salt, and so on until the kettle is filled.  Water is poured over
all, and the whole is thoroughly boiled.  While this is going on, the men amuse
themselves with roasting bits of meat on the ends of pointed sticks.

Pg. 65:  When the mess in the kettle is cooked, each one fills his calabash,
and with his fingers or a cocoa-nut spoon disposes of it at his leisure.  As
the "yard beef" has always a most suspicious odor, I could bring myself to
taste the contents of the kettle but once.  I must do the marineros the justice to
say that it was not an unsavory dish.  It is always arranged to have half a
kettle full of the compound over, to which the men help themselves at their
pleasure.
   Besides these common stores, every sailor has a private stock, consisting,
generally, of a bag of _tiste_, (parched corn, ground with cacao and sugar,)
which is mixed with water, making a nourishing and most delicious beverage.
He has also a few cakes oif _chancaca_, or, as he calls it, _dulce_, i. e.,
unrefined sugar, which he eats in its raw state.

Pg. 92:  We were now, for the first time, introduced to the eternal
_tortilla_ and the omnipresent _frijoles_, to say nothing of the endless variety of
_dulces_ (sweetmeats), for which all Spanish America is famous.  We commenced
with beef, culminated over chicken, and finished with oranges, bananas, coffee,
and cigars; with a pleasant stomachic conviction that goo dinners were not
incompatible with cane-huts, brooding hens in the corners, and amative pigeons
under the caves!
(No tamales?--ed.)

Pg. 129:  The entire dress was often pure white, but generally the skirt, or
_nagua_, was of some flowered stuff, in which case the _guipil_ (_anglice_,
vandyke) was white, heavily trimmed with lace.

Pg. 134:  We were nevertheless received with the greatest civility by the
mayordomo, who insisted that we were hot and thirsty, and wanted "_algo fresco_,"
and incontinently despatched a boy to get some fresh cocoa-nuts, the milk of
which, when the nut is not too much matured, is transparent as water, and
makes a cool and delightful beverage,--especially when a drop of brandy is mixed
in "to take off the edge," and prevent fevers!

Pg. 190:  Oranges, plantains, maranons, jocotes, nisperos, mamays, and tall
palms, with their variously-colored fruits blushing brown or golden among the
leaves, and here and there a low calabash tree, with its green globes strung on
every limb, all clustering otgether, literally embowered the cane huts of the
simple-minded and industrious inhabitants.

Pg. 191:  Beneath some large trees upon one side of the plaza, we descried
our carts and their escort, taking what at home would be called "a nooning."
("At home"=U.S.  "Nooning" for revised OED?--ed.)

Pg. 191:  The officer in command, in anticipation of our arrival, had
prepared two or three jars of "algo fresco," something fresh, delightfully compounded
of water, the juice of the cocoa-nut, and of the acidulous maranon,--a
delicious and refreshing beverage, to which we paid our respects in protracted
draughts, not forgetting "_mil gracias_," and sundry _medios_ to a plump, laughing
Indian girl who dispensed it, in snowy calabashes, to the thirsty strangers.

Pg. 256:  There is a delicious kind of _liqueur_ made from the Muscatel
grape, called "Italia," or "Pscio," which is brought from Peru.

Pg. 256:  In their food, the Nicaraguans are also exceedingly simple.
Tortillas and frijoles are the standard dishes.

Pg. 257:  The man who cannot "go" the _frijoles_ had better keep away from
Central America.  For the weary traveller, in soliciting the bill of fare at the
Indian hut where, four (Pg. 258--ed.) times out of five, he is obliged to
stop for the night, has generally this brief catalogue, "_hay tortillas,
frijoles, frijolitos, frijolitos fritos y huevos_," --"tortillas, beans, little beans,
little baked beans, and eggs!"
(Where are my nacatamales?--ed.)

Pg. 250:  Tea is only drunk by foreigners, and by them to a very limited
extent.  It is not to be found therefore in any of the shops.  A cup of chocolate,
or more frequently a cup of _tiste_ (parched corn ground with chocolate and
sugar and mixed with water), passed unceremoniously in the evening, supplies
its place, and is not an unacceptable substitute.  It should be mentioned,
however, that large quantities of "dulces," literally "sweets" or sweetmeats are
eaten between meals, especially by the women.  The Spanish taste for "dulces"
long ago passed into a proverb, but it rather surpasses itself in Nicaragua.
The venders of "dulces," generally bright Indian girls, gaily dressed, and
bearing a tray, covered with the purest white napkins, and temptingly spread, upon
their heads, pass daily from house to house; and it is sometimes difficult,
and always ungallant to refuse purchasing something, however, trifling, from
their stock.  The "mil gracious Senor!" in the silverest of voices, is always
woth the money, and swo one gets the "dulces" gratis.

Pg. 272:  They also make drinking vessels from the calabash; the largest
varieties are called "_guacals_," or "_aguacals_," and the smaller ones, made from
the long or pear-shaped calabash, "_jicaras_."  These last are often
tastefully carved ipon their exteriors, and are generalloy used instead of tumblers.
It is indispensable that "_tiste_" should be served in "jicaras," and (Pg.
273--ed.) amongst the people at large they are also used for coffee and
chocolate.  But as their bottoms are round, little carved stands are made to receive
them.  The Indians near the city of Nicaragua make similar cups from a variety
of cocoa-nut perculiar to that vicinity, which are celebrated throughout their
country for their beauty of shape and ornament.
(OED has 1859, then 1892 for "jicara"--ed.)

Pg. 583:  From the roof depended quantitites of _plantains_, _maduras_ and
_verdes_, intermixed with festoons of _tasajo_ or hung-beef.

Pg. 615:  Dr. Drivon, who has recently returned from California, in high
disgust, was established at the Dona Antonia's, but a square distant; and as he
had often praised the oysters found in the Bay of Fonseca, I hinted to him,
before we had fairly got ashore, that I was ready to pass judgment on them.
Fortunately, the Indians had brought in a fresh supply that morning, and he sent
round a sack-full, which were served for breakfast.  They were small, compact,
and salt, and we ate them with the utmost relish.  All hands concurred in
saying that they were quite equal to the best "New -Haveners," and the value of the
Gulf of Fonseca became straightway doubled in our eyes.
("New-Haveners?"  They're edible?--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 22 00:54:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:54:42 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040321185132.02f07680@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
>myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
>"cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....
>
>The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
>"cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
>don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.
>
>I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>(cf "poppycock").

which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
"papekak", soft dung

larry horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 22 01:23:32 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:23:32 -0500
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>>
>>I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>>(cf "poppycock").
>
>which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
>"papekak", soft dung
>
Oops, I should have checked before sending.  The above was from
memory, and while the sources I just checked confirm the "kak"
('dung') half, the "pape" should have been "pappe" (the Middle Dutch
was "pappekak") and it's not certain whether it really comes from a
word meaning "soft".  AHD4 gives Lat. "pappa" 'food' as one
possibility (yum!) and leaves it open as to whether there might be
others.  But the "kak" part seems firm.    As it were.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 22 03:18:00 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:18:00 -0500
Subject: Lobengulous
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Apparently Lobengula was quite fat, at least in his later years. Here is a
book chapter (from 1900 or so) which mentions this.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/henschap2.htm

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 06:00:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:00:50 EST
Subject: Reposado (1990); Cotija (1966); Gremolata (1977)
Message-ID: 

REPOSADOS

REPOSADO--29,000 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits
REPOSADOS--2,770 Google hits, 92 Google Groups hits

   "Reposado" is not in the OED ("miserable on food AND DRINK").  John
Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999) has a "tequila" entry, but
no mention of it, either...I'm away from ProQuest right now.
   I had a late dinner/breakfast at Chevy's on 42nd Street (opposite the Port
Authority, when I leave on a bus in two hours).  Chevy's is "Fresh Mex."
Neither "Tex-Mex" nor "Cal-Mex" is in the LOS ANGELES TIMES through January 1,
1960.
   The Chevy's menu has "blancos" and "anejos" and "reposados"--"These are
'rested' tequila, aged from 2 to 9 months for a smoother taste."


(TRADEMARKS)(There are 21--ed.)
Word Mark   GRAN CENTENARIO REPOSADO TEQUILA 100% AGAVE-AZUL HECHO EN MEXICO

Translations    "GRAN CENTENARIO" may be translated into English as "grand
centennial". "REPOSADO" may be translated into English as "settled". "HECHO EN
MEXICO" may be translated into English as "made in Mexico". "AGAVE AZUL" may be
translated into English as "blue agave".
Goods and Services  IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: Alcoholic beverages, namely,
tequilaIC 042. US 100 101. G & S: Restaurant services
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  020325 200306 261120 261121
Serial Number   75383454
Filing Date November 3, 1997
Current Filing Basis    1B
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition    May 2, 2000
Owner   (APPLICANT) Tequila Cuervo La Rojena, S.A. de C.V. CORPORATION MEXICO
Circunvalacion Sur #44A Zapopan Jalisco, Codigo 45070 MEXICO
Attorney of Record  LAWRENCE E ABELMAN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA",
"AGAVE", and "HECHO IN MEXICO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   TEQUILA EL TEQUILENO ESPECIAL REPOSADO
Translations    The word "TEQUILENO" may be translated as "a native born
person of Tequila, Mexico". The term "ESPECIAL" may be translated as "special",
and the term "REPOSADO" as "aged".
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: tequila
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  200310
Serial Number   74643685
Filing Date March 9, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1B
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition    April 16, 1996
Owner   (APPLICANT) JORGE SALLES CUERVO Y SUCESORES S.A. DE C.V. CORPORATION
MEXICO LEANDRO VALLE No. 991 GUADALAJARA, JALISCO MEXICO
Attorney of Record  JOHN CLARKE HOLMAN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA",
"ESPECIAL" and "REPOSADO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark The lining is a feature of the mark and does not indicate
color.
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date    July 10, 1999

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   REPOSADA TEQUILA CORRALEJO MIGUEL HIDALGO
Translations    The English translation of REPOSADO is RESTED.
Goods and Services  IC 033. US 047 049. G & S: Tequila. FIRST USE: 19961102.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19971010
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code  180103 190903 200310
Serial Number   75391761
Filing Date November 17, 1997
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    August 22, 2000
Registration Number 2403105
Registration Date   November 14, 2000
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Moreno, Leonardo Rodriguez INDIVIDUAL MEXICO Arboleada
de la Hacienda, #42 Col Arboleadas Atizapan de Zaragoza Estado de Mexico MEXICO

Attorney of Record  JEFFREY A DRACUP
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TEQUILA" and
"REPOSADO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark The mark consists of two labels. One small label,
appearing on the neck of the bottle, is lined to indicate illegal material consisting
of a gold emblem appearing between "Tequila" and "Corralejo". The large
label, appearing in the middle of the bottle, consists of the wording "REPOSADO,
TEQUILA CORRALEJO", the signature of "MIGUEL HIDALGO" and a horse and carriage
design. The shape of the bottle is not claimed as part of the mark and appears
in dotted lines. It is used to show the positioning of the mark.
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Other Data  The name "MIGUEL HIDALGO" does not identify a living individual.

Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Good Reposados from Nogales, Mexico!
There's a one liter / person limit going over the border, by the
way. Do you mean duty free limit? I could have sworn the limit ...
alt.tequilla - Nov 24, 1997 by Jesse Sands - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Cuervo
Jose Cuervo tequila is the best!I used to think the same thing, but I have
waked up to real blue agave tequila, Herradura Gold and other reposados! ...
alt.tequilla - Apr 22, 1996 by Wayne Nelson - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Dynamite Margarita
... Although I do really like the Cuervo Reposado for shots -- makes them
almost
bearable (but then that's not the intent in the first place, is it?)! Hey!
...
rec.food.drink - Aug 5, 1992 by Dane Manes - View Thread (8 articles)

Re: Tequilas en Jap'on
#>El mar, 23 Jun 1992 19:32:03 CDT mi tocayo escribe: #> > # El tequila
Herradura reposado no es difi'cil #> >de encontrar en Chicago. ...
soc.culture.mexican - Jun 25, 1992 by Tena-Colunga - View Thread (13 articles)

Re: What are the three grades of Herradura Tequila?
... Toads. They also make cheap stuff.) Sauza Hornitos Reposado (I think
that that means "Sleeping Horny Toad") Very Good Tequila. Almost ...
rec.food.drink - Sep 27, 1990 by Robert W. Lesnick - View Thread (5 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COTIJA

COTIJA--11,800 Google hits, 277 Google Groups hits

   This Mexican cheese was served at Chevy's.  The OED...well, it doesn't
have it.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Good Things In Peppers (was Re: Worm in my Habanero Peppers)
... I mixed some cotija cheese (a salty, somewhat feta-like cheese from
Mexico,
less sour than feta but saltier) with garlic, olive oil, cumin and thyme. ...

rec.food.cooking - Aug 13, 1993 by Scott Fisher - View Thread (6 articles

)Re: Carniceria terms
... molleja de pollo -- ?? of chicken queso Cotija -- I'm wagering this
is a place-name for a kind of cheese, but am unsure. chamorro ...
rec.food.cooking - Aug 5, 1992 by David Adams - View Thread (3 articles


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark    COTIJA
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: cheese. FIRST USE:
19681231. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681231
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74684243
Filing Date June 5, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    November 19, 1996
Registration Number 2039780
Registration Date   February 25, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) COTIJA CHEESE COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 15130
Nelson Avenue City of Industry CALIFORNIA 91744
Attorney of Record  Donald M. Cislo
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date   November 29, 2003

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   COTIJA ANEJO
Translations    The English translation of "ANEJO" is "old".
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: cheese. FIRST USE:
19681231. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19681231
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   74684238
Filing Date June 5, 1995
Current Filing Basis    1A

Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    January 28, 1997
Registration Number 2053939
Registration Date   April 22, 1997
Owner   (REGISTRANT) COTIJA CHEESE COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 15130
Nelson Avenue City of Industry CALIFORNIA 91744
Attorney of Record  Donald M. Cislo
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date   January 24, 2004


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/15/1985
...it it The two types of CHEESE involved are COTIJA and queso fresco, both
soft CHEESEs.....64 104 69 85 64 74 52 90 60 Nation Deadly CHEESE plant scoured
LOS ANGELES (AP.....or raw milk contaminated a Mexican-style CHEESE linked to
29 deaths, and they are.....off icials joined forces Friday to get CHEESE
made by Jalisco Mexican Products Inc..
Elyria, Ohio Saturday, June 15, 1985  472 k

Coshocton Tribune - 4/7/1966
...vermicelli (thin spaghetti', and oueso de COTIJA. a dried grating CHEESE
that Sra. van.....different milk used in manufacturing ter. CHEESE, and other
dairy prcKJucls is S3. 50.....substantially above market prices. No CHEESE has
been acquired or distributed for.....it is served without embellishment) with
CHEESE and chopped onion, and vegetables and..
Coshocton, Ohio Thursday, April 07, 1966  637 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/15/1985
...contamination was found in samples of COTIJA and queso fresco CHEESE
manufactured.....JUSE 15, 1985 28 deaths linked to rotten CHEESE By L1LA UTTLEJOHN
Associated Press.....linked two varieties of one manufacturer's CHEESE to more
than 80 illnesses that.....A statewide recall was ordered and the CHEESE
factory closed voluntarily Bacterial..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 15, 1985  461 k

Waukesha Freeman - 2/15/2003
...cheddar, salsa gouda, Hispanic CHEESEs like COTIJA and flavored goat
CHEESE as well.....more complex flavors, are popular, as are CHEESE blends,
washed-rind CHEESE, Hispanic.....southern breezes, Boyce said. Smoked-salmon CHEESE
comes from the Village CHEESE Co. in.....Inc. With ingredients blended in
during the CHEESE-making process, flavored CHEESE is one..
Waukesha, Wisconsin Saturday, February 15, 2003  517 k

Modesto Bee - 1/22/2003
...diced 1Vz teaspoons salt Vt cup grated COTIJA Vz cup grated manchego Vz
cup grated.....Vz cup carrot, grated cup Monterey jack CHEESE, grated Vt cup
fresh parsley, finely.....onions, sour cream and shredded Cheddar CHEESE.
National Cattleman's Beef Association.....BLACK-BEAN AND CHEESE TACOS 2 cups dried
black beans..
Modesto, California Wednesday, January 22, 2003  642 k

Times Recorder - 4/5/1966
...tomato broths vermicelli (thin and queso de COTIJA. a dried grating CHEESE
that Sra. van.....thick amp; cup crumbled American blue CHEESE (about 3
ounces) U cup Parmesan CHEESE.....it is served without embellishment with CHEESE
and chopped onion, and vegetables and.....is the subtly sharp flavor of American
blue CHEESE. VERSATILE CASSEROLE I package frozen..
Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, April 05, 1966  729 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GREMOLATA

GREMOLATA--11,500 Google hits, 289 Google Groups hits

This just arrived:
   April 2004, GOURMET, pg. 189:
CARROTS WITH GREMOLATA
A classic Italian topping, _gremolata_ is usually sprinkled over osso buco.

   The OED has...well, it doesn't have "gremolata."
   So I'm at the accountant last weekend with my sister, and I say, why don't
I just quit doing parking tickets 10 hours a day every day in a room with no
air, why don't I do an online dictionary of food and drink, maybe work more
for free for OED and the ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK.  I know it's
kind of a stretch, given that my work has never been mentioned in a single food
or drink article, not even about the "hot dog" that I did nine years ago, but
then again I've never been in NEW YORK or THE NEW YORKER or TIME OUT NEW YORK
or on tv or on the radio and I did lots of stuff for New York City, and I
can't even give "Windy City" to the Chicago Historical Society for free for ten
years now and still counting, and you try not to think about these things
because none of it makes sense...


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Technique Request: Consistency of Risotto
... herbs. A gremolata is marvelous if you're doing osso buco too. (Gremolata
:
minced garlic, grated lemon zest, chopped Italian parsley. ...
rec.food.cooking - Jul 3, 1990 by Scott Fisher - View Thread (3 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mountain Democrat - 8/27/1991
...and delicious lowfat recipes PASTA WITH GREMOLATA GREMOLATA is a
combination of..
Placerville, California Tuesday, August 27, 1991  575 k

Gleaner - 4/25/2002
...egg and cheese dishes, soups, sauces. is GREMOLATA is a garnish of grated
lemon rind..
Kingston, Kingston Thursday, April 25, 2002  535 k

Daily News - 1/15/2003
...pork which she garnishes with a mustard GREMOLATA. Six desserts,
including..
Los Angeles, California Wednesday, January 15, 2003  249 k

Lethbridge Herald - 5/9/1977
...out osso bucco (braised veal shanks) with GREMOLATA. Many viewers .prefer
to watch..
Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, May 09, 1977  654 k

Frederick Post - 10/13/1993
...may be thickened, if desired.) Top with GREMOLATA (minced parsley, minced
garlic and..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, October 13, 1993  700 k


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Mon Mar 22 11:17:30 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:17:30 +0000
Subject: COCK as vernacular pop adjectival
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

--On Sunday, March 21, 2004 7:54 pm -0500 Laurence Horn
 wrote:

(someone elsewrote)
>
>> There is "cock" (adj.) in US English although I've only heard it rarely
>> myself, back around 1970 I think. It is in HDAS (sense 2). It is like
>> "cool" or "boss" or "dope" or ....
>>
>> The Singaporean examples quoted on the 'insultmonger' site seem to give
>> "cock" as an English gloss for Fukienese "lan jiao" (= "penis") etc. I
>> don't know that an English adjective "cock" is being referred to here.
>>
>> I believe Singapore-English "talk[ing] cock" = "talk[ing] nonsense" or so
>> (cf "poppycock").
>
> which brings us back to "caca"/"cack", given that "poppycock" <
> "papekak", soft dung


And since one also hears 'talking cack', this still looks to me like it's
'cack' imported as 'cock' into singapore english (feces not penes).

But, oh well, Ron doesn't agree...

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 22 16:36:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:36:55 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

It's been common for what, over a decade? But it's not in OED or M-W
Online: "101" after the name of a topic, meaning 'the basic information
about..., introduction to...', as in many colleges' course catalogs.

 http://www.jewfaq.org/
 Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of
Judaism,

 http://www.asp101.com/
 The place ASP developers GO!

 http://www.internet101.org/
 to learn about the Internet and how it works

 http://www.islam101.com/
 Islam 101 is an educational site on Islam, its way of life,
civilization and culture

 Mortgage101.com Answers to Your Mortgage Questions

 Toiletology 101: Free Toilet Repair Course

 CGI Programming 101 - Learn CGI Today!

 Musicals101.com - The Cyber Encyclopedia of Musicals

Not surprisingly, Google has a lot of hits from computer-related sites
and sites with '101' in their names. The above are from the first 20 of
"about 18,700,000" hits.

I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar 22 16:41:01 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:41:01 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 11:36:55AM -0500, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
> I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

I'm pretty sure it's in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary,
as I remember working on this entry whilst I was there.

We have a draft entry for OED that should appear in the next one
or two updates (whenever we get to "ON-"); I'm not in the office now
but I think our first quote was from the 1940s or something like
that.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Mon Mar 22 17:51:33 2004
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:51:33 -0600
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

Here is an interesting entry FWIW from _The User's Webster Dictionary,_ 2000
(reviewed in DICTIONARIES 2003). It is entered between "one-off" and
"onerous":

101 (wun.oh.WUN) _comb.form._: elementary level in a subject: _You start the
program with Rocket Science 101; The brash new recruit had skipped Modesty
101._

BTW, UWD's first printing (available free on our website) has been sold out.
Next one awaited this year.

Thomas M. Paikeday
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A. Mandel" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: 101


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      101
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> It's been common for what, over a decade? But it's not in OED or M-W
> Online: "101" after the name of a topic, meaning 'the basic information
> about..., introduction to...', as in many colleges' course catalogs.
>
>  http://www.jewfaq.org/
>  Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of
> Judaism,
>
>  http://www.asp101.com/
>  The place ASP developers GO!
>
>  http://www.internet101.org/
>  to learn about the Internet and how it works
>
>  http://www.islam101.com/
>  Islam 101 is an educational site on Islam, its way of life,
> civilization and culture
>
>  Mortgage101.com Answers to Your Mortgage Questions
>
>  Toiletology 101: Free Toilet Repair Course
>
>  CGI Programming 101 - Learn CGI Today!
>
>  Musicals101.com - The Cyber Encyclopedia of Musicals
>
> Not surprisingly, Google has a lot of hits from computer-related sites
> and sites with '101' in their names. The above are from the first 20 of
> "about 18,700,000" hits.
>
> I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Mar 22 18:27:53 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:27:53 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

Mandel writes:
>
>I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
>was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.

>From The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2, Winter 1999):
101, adj. {m}  elementary; basic.  Standard (used in informal contexts
dealing especially with social issues; frequency?)

Here?s a course for any lawyer who wants to originate business: Friendship
101.  The syllabus might read: ?How to make friends and deepen
friendships, listen well, support others and help them feel comfortable in
your presence.?  Sheila Neilson, ?Try Adding Civility, Kindness to Law
School Curriculum,? Illinois Legal Times (Nexis), June 1998, p 7

Two books that take this fresh approach are The Strang Cookbook for Cancer
Prevention?get past the name?and Prevention?s Health Guaranteed Cookbook.
The Prevention book, a spinoff of Prevention magazine, is like ?Nutrition
101,? says editor David Joachim. ?We tried to keep the science easy to
understand.?  Kim Pierce, ?When good health means great taste,? The Dallas
Morning News (Nexis), May 20, 1998, p 1F

Hats off to ?rediscovering Econ 101? (Editorial, Dec. 14).  Businessmen do
not seem to recognize the relative elasticity of demand for consumer
durables.  Peter B. Dowling [Springfield, Mass.], ?Readers Report: More or
Less,? Business Week (Nexis), Jan. 20, 1975, p 8

Earlier this year, the big media companies launched a new product that
they were enormously excited about?the Monica Lewinsky story?only to run
into a lack of enthusiasm from customers.  John Cassidy, ?The Political
Scene: Monicanomics 101,? The New Yorker, Sept. 21, 1998, p73

1975 (but presumed to be earlier).  Semantic shift (specialization): from
101, the number for a college course which is on the most basic level,
such as Psychology 101.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION [quarterly dictionary]


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 22 21:00:22 2004
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:22 EST
Subject: ou'doors
Message-ID: 

I was reminded when I was visiting my father in Central New York that the
rural pronunciation of "outdoors" up there is /aUdorz/, with equal stress on the
syllables and no trace of a /t/ or glottal stop.   My grandfather also used
"outdoor" for the adv.--don't know if it's unique to that region or not.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Mar 22 21:52:38 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:52:38 -0500
Subject: ou'doors
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I remember a grammar school teacher with a
strong French-Canadian accent (she was from a francophone part
of Maine) who pronounced "hot dog" without the "t," and with a
stress that was either even on both words or possibly even a little
stronger on the second word.  (It sounded something like
"hawDAWG.")  Is it possible that the pronunciation of English
words in places not far from Quebec could have been influenced by
French?  Just an amateur's wild guess here.

Joanne

On 22 Mar 2004, at 16:00, Dale Coye wrote:

> I was reminded when I was visiting my father in Central New York that the
> rural pronunciation of "outdoors" up there is /aUdorz/, with equal stress on the
> syllables and no trace of a /t/ or glottal stop.   My grandfather also used
> "outdoor" for the adv.--don't know if it's unique to that region or not.
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 04:50:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:50:32 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached (1943); Chicken head (1889); Reposado;
 Gremolata
Message-ID: 

   Almost forgot something today.

---------------------------------------------------------------
LOSE/FORGET YOUR HEAD IF IT WASN'T ATTACHED

HEAD + WASN'T ATTACHED--2,940 Google hits, 775 Google Groups hits

   Not in OED or HDAS?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Zanesville Signal - 7/11/1943
...Darling, 1 think you'd lose your HEAD if it WASN'T ATTACHED to you." When Nan had learned.....an odd glove? It must still be there." It WASN'T. It took Joe Norton another six to.....A ring suggested the jeweler. Joe shook his HEAD. "Not even a he answered, gloomily, and.....taxicab I was taking off my gloves, and I WASN'T Oh, Joe took it like a man like a man..
Zanesville, Ohio   Sunday, July 11, 1943  808 k

Post Crescent - 7/14/1974
...for when you were a child? "If your HEAD WASN'T ATTACHED, you'd forget it. Now, at.....cancerous. The job of these drugs is to HEAD off the virus before it can convert the..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Sunday, July 14, 1974  222 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 1/31/1957
...garden wall was grumbling. "If your HEAD WASN'T ATTACHED to your shoulders, you'd be.....25. Down. ingstreet 27. Music note 28. HEAD (slang) 29. tor CO.Tiles 33. Sacred bull..
Holland, Michigan   Thursday, January 31, 1957  1095 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
RUNNING AROUND LIKE A CHICKEN WITH ITS HEAD CUT OFF

LIKE A CHICKEN + HEAD CUT OFF--6,580 Google hits, 4,290 Google Groups hits

   Another heady Americanism.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   HE WAS HANGED.; REMARKABLE EXPERIENCE OF A LOS ANGELES MAN. Paralyzed, He Fell on the RailRoad Track in the San Fernando Tunnel and Was Pulled Off the Track in the Nick of Time. OUT OF THE JAWS OF DEATH. AS IF PACKED IN ICE. AN AWFUL ESCAPE. WILLING TO BE HANGED. HOW IT FELT. A QUEER SENSATION.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 15, 1889. p. 4 (1 page):
   In a few seconds I came to, and saw my feet jumping about like a chicken does with its head cut off.

   MAHONE'S FRAIL HOPES; TRYING TO BUY UP THE ELECTION JUDGES.USE FOR THE MONEY SUPPLIED FROM OUTSIDE--THE RIDICULOUS TALK OF A DUAL GOVERNMENT.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 1889. p. 1 (1 page):
   "He is floundering about like a chicken with his head cut off."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lincoln Star - 7/9/1931
...wAs running About LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. MAnAger Confident Now. The.....in JAcobs is due to the fAct thAt Joe, LIKE MAx himself, now believes Schmeling to.....nightcAp thAt very effectively covered his heAd, comprising 84 yArds of cloth And.....Y., And NormAn dimming of Toronto teed OFF todAy in the first 18 holes of the 72..
Lincoln, Nebraska   Thursday, July 09, 1931  874 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 12/24/1932
...the cAt rAn Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. The demented pussy cAt heAded.....he hAs held since 1926. Atterbury RemAins OFF GenerAl W. W. Atterbury, who fell from..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Saturday, December 24, 1932  917 k

New Oxford Item - 12/22/1932
...the cAt rAn Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF. The demented pussy cAt heAded.....Burke wAs humble. He stood with bowed heAd And tried to shield his fAce from the..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania   Thursday, December 22, 1932  746 k

Sheboygan Press - 6/2/1926
...Ad Is LIKE A CHICKEN thAt's just got Its heAd CUT OFF it wiggles for A while And then.....whAt is the honest citizen to do? He would LIKE to vote for the mAn of his choice but.....cAught up And soon will go AheAd. A level heAd will cArry you Along even you do hAve.....Women Are so vAin. They get their hAir CUT Almost As often As men. Most of those..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin   Wednesday, June 02, 1926  641 k

Iowa City Daily Press - 2/1/1908
...Acted kind o' LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF till the boss got into the.....three 9 youne brood All bred; And ChinA 28 HeAd of 27 heAd ef" HAmphsire 1 HAmpshire.....boss's doin's. Yep. Lord thAr. gAng look LIKE we Are through with "em. Spendin' the.....rn1-1 w -'-.1. Dntr A OOfT' Boston. MAm tm. CUT Icon Bork on Skto CA., ViA suf rertng..
Iowa City, Iowa   Saturday, February 01, 1908  552 k

Broad Ax - 10/16/1897
...Lewis rushed Around LIKE A CHICKEN with its heAd CUT OFF while he wAs rAllying the.....by A. F. Doremus. H. F. EvAns rushed Around LIKE A li in A ChinA store, And swore he.....And severAl were thrown out oi' the TheAter heAd formost by the sergeAnt-At-Arms becAuse.....some of them declAred thAt they intended to CUT And slAsh the single gold stAndArd ticket..
Salt Lake City, Utah   Saturday, October 16, 1897  439 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
REPOSADO (continued)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
GLASS ACT; The Taming of Tequila GLASS ACT
JAMES CONAWAY. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 1, 1988. p. 453 (2 pages)
Pg. 453:  The best tequila--called _reposado_--spends a few months in a large redwood tank that gives it a golden tinge and added taste complexity.  One notable _reposado_ tequila is Cuervo Especial--the bestselling "gold" tequila in this country, where it costs about $10 a bottle.

(FACTIVA)(There are 423 hits for "reposado" + "tequila")
LCBO recalls all tequila brands
109 words
12 August 1987
The Toronto Star
FINAL
A17
English
(Copyright The Toronto Star)

All brands of tequila sold in Ontario have been pulled from liquor store shelves after tests showed some bottles of each contained glass particles.

Jack Ackroyd, chairman of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario (LCBO), said new tests were ordered when it was learned all tequilas in Ontario come from the same source.

The tests found bits of glass in several bottles of Olmeca and Cuervo Especial Gold tequilas. Included in the recall is Hornitos Reposado. Tequila Sauza Silver was recalled last week, followed by Tequila Sauza Gold, when glass was discovered in some bottles. All bottles can be returned for full refunds.

---------------------------------------------------------------
GREMOLATA (continued)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
1. A Winter Special
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 26, 1961. p. SM105 (1 page):
   As a final fillip before serving, the dish is sprinkled with _gremolata_, a traditional combination of chopped parsley, garlic and grated lemon peel.

   2. DINING OUT; Italian Delights
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1976. p. 352 (1 page)

  3. Article 6 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1976. p. 48 (1 page):
   Mince the remaining two cloves of garlic and combine with parsley and lemon peel.  SPrinkle the mixture, called gremolata, over the veal and serve immediately.

   4. Q&A
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1979. p. C9 (1 page):
Q.  I have a recipe for veal shanks Italian style that calls for gremolata.  Would you please tell me what this is and how I can obtain it?
A.  Gremolata, or gremolada, is a flavorful garnish used chiefly for ossobuco or baked veal shanks in Italy.  It consists of finely chopped garlic, persley and grated lemon grind.  This is generally added toward or at the end of cooking time.  It gives an excellent and characteristic zest to the dish.  If there are other uses for the blend, I am not aware of them.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 07:11:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:11:50 -0500
Subject: Noodle Bar (1960); Nabe & Shabu-Shabu (1963); Sam Sloan's epitaphs
Message-ID: 

   It was very cold today in New York City, and the sign in ONY Noodle Bar's window (6th Avenue, near the NYU subway; www.ony-usa.com) offering a hot "Ishikari nabe" (189 Google hits; not in OED) was very inviting.
   If you sit at the bar, don't let the "EMPLOYEE MUST WASH HAND" sign turn you off...The soup was great.  I was served by a Japanese woman.  When I left the place, she was standing outside, smoking.  "Thank you, sir!" she said.  I was a bit flustered, but glad that she didn't add "Come again soon!"

---------------------------------------------------------------
NOODLE BAR

NOODLE BAR--15,300 Google hits, 859 Google Groups hits
NOODLE SHOP--22,900 Google hits, 1,540 Google Groups hits

   OED revised the "noodle" entry for December 2003 and...there is no "noodle bar."   There's not even one entry for "noodle shop," either.
   Obviously, no OED editor saw the movie TAMPOPO.  Or has been to Japan.  Or has eaten Japanese food anywhere around the world?!


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Blade Runner question
In the scene at the noodle bar Gaff addresses Deckard in a strange sounding
language. What language is this? Why doesn't he use English? ...
alt.cult-movies - May 11, 1993 by Jason T Amdor - View Thread (40 articles)

Re: Good Japanese Noodle Place?
... thanks, =mike Actually, I haven't run across anything quite like Goemon in Cambridge,
MA, but Ikenohana in Cupertino (close to Apple) has a noodle bar for lunch ...
ba.food - Mar 3, 1993 by J.T. Teh - View Thread (5 articles)

Re: Japanese noodle house?
Seto Sushi on El Camino between Lawrence and Wolfe has a large selection
of noodle dishes altho they do not have a noodle bar per se.... ...
ba.food - Jan 19, 1993 by John Reece - View Thread (15 articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Student Shows Elder the korean Path; The overthrow of Syngman Rhee and present efforts to remake South Korea represent an illuminating case of the young teaching the old. Student Shows Elder the Path
BY ROBERT TRUMBULL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 19, 1960. p. SM8 (4 pages)
(Last page)  One thing of which Lee is sure is that the students, who have developed a loosely functioning liaison organization that meets informally in tea rooms and noodle bars, will take to the streets again if they feel that their elders are too slow in effecting reforms.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("noodle shop")
Fire Loss 1 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 21, 1901. p. 3 (1 page) :
   Five stores, a lodging-house and a noodle shop were burned.

---------------------------------------------------------------
NABE & SHABU-SHABU

NABE + JAPANESE--11,900 Google hits, 578 Google Groups hits

   OED revised "nabe" (just the entry meaning "neighborhood") for June 2003.  The Japanese "nabe" is not in the revised OED.
   THIS IS NOT GOOD!  I'M NOT EVEN TRYING HERE!  A lot of Japanese try to learn English, and they buy English dictionaries, and they look for a word like this...
   Miserable on food!


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Sushi from the Fugu Fish (puffer fish)
... Fugu is usually served as a sashimi or as a nabe. ... You're safer eating fugu in a Japanese
restaurant than you are eating wild mushrooms at an American restaurant ...
alt.drugs - Jun 29, 1989 by Mark Crispin - View Thread (12 articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   JAPAN'S SUKIYAKI CIRCUIT; Tasty Tips for Tourists On the Gourmet Trail In Tokyo Area Tempura Transformed Deep-Fried Dishes Bones and All Tokyo Bouillabaisse
By PETER ROBINSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1963. p. XXX38 (1 page):
   Somewhat more formal than the counter-places, but less so than the banquet-style restaurant, is the restaurant which served nabe-ryori ("pot-cooking" foods).  Sukiyaki belongs in this category, but is just one among many Japanese dishes which are cooked right on the table in front of the guest.
(...)  Similar to mizutaki in some respects is shaab-shaab, a dish which actually originated in Manchuria.  The main ingredient here is beef or mutton which has been sliced very thin.
(...)  Chanko-nabe is a rich stew based on fish, chicken or meat (it is up to the customer to choose which) with plentiful helpings of vegetables.

Menu's Imaginative, Cooking's Inspired
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 29, 1969. p. 16 (1 page):
   ...shabu-shabu, in which beef and vegetables are cooked in broth; nabe, another boiled dish with sea food and chicken; ozen, which is a complete Japanese dinner, and steak served on a hot platter.  The shabu-shabu is particularly tasty with two sauces, one of sesame and bean paste, another of soy and lemon.

East Meets West; Entertaining Japanese Guest Nabe To Serve Cooking Liquid
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1970. p. E1 (2 pages):
   Nabe (pronounced nah-beh) is the Japanese counterpart to the American homemaker's cook-at-the-table party dish.  A fondue-type dish composed of bite-size, crisp vegetables and meat or poultry or fish (_See EAST, E3, Col. 1_) cooked in a cook-pot or broth, this dish is very popular.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 2/2/1964
...called haiku. For instance, there's chanko NABE, a soupstew containing meat, fish and.....noon or dinner meal or snack between meals. JAPANESE Restaurant In Tokyo Features.....Press International NEW YORK (UPI) A new .JAPANESE restaurant here made a federal case.....and unfamiliar to most Westerners as is JAPANESE poetry..
Zanesville, Ohio   Sunday, February 02, 1964  674 k

Coshocton Tribune - 1/23/1964
...called haiku. For instance there's ohanko NABE, a soupstew containing meat, fish and.....and unfamiliar to most West eraers as is JAPANESE poetry.....on tempura ant sushi, the traditional JAPANESE Clinch dish. Susihi was popularized.....raw halibut flounder and porgy. Although JAPANESE cuisine contains various raw foods..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, January 23, 1964  659 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
OT: SAM SLOAN'S EPITAPHS

   Sam Sloan is a colorful chess character from my past.  He's been to 80 countries, more than even...Tyler Cowen.
   He posted today that he's on this web site:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1539
USCF candidate, taxi-driver, polygamist, gadfly ? all these epitaphs fit one of the most colorful personalities in world chess. Sam Sloan has been jailed in Afghanistan, fought Pakistani kidnappers, had lunch with terrorist mastermind bin Laden, fled US courts who want access to his father's alleged $50 million fortune. And you thought chess players led dull lives?

(No, I didn't think this.  But this posting from beyond the grave has me worried--ed.)


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar 23 13:11:02 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:11:02 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation of the
first course in any subject but in my memory before for whatever reason all
too many colleges/universities designated beginning courses by adding the 10
as a prefix to 1 we used to call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1,
Chemistry 1, English 1, etc. The second courses in the subject would then be
entitled 2, 3, etc.

If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would love
to learn about it.

Page Stephens

PS. why not 1 as opposed to 101.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: 101


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Barnhart 
> Subject:      Re: 101
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Mandel writes:
> >
> >I hardly expect this usage to be news to any reader of this list, but I
> >was surprised not to find it in dictionaries.
>
> From The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2, Winter 1999):
> 101, adj. {m}  elementary; basic.  Standard (used in informal contexts
> dealing especially with social issues; frequency?)
>
> Here's a course for any lawyer who wants to originate business: Friendship
> 101.  The syllabus might read: "How to make friends and deepen
> friendships, listen well, support others and help them feel comfortable in
> your presence."  Sheila Neilson, "Try Adding Civility, Kindness to Law
> School Curriculum," Illinois Legal Times (Nexis), June 1998, p 7
>
> Two books that take this fresh approach are The Strang Cookbook for Cancer
> Prevention-get past the name-and Prevention's Health Guaranteed Cookbook.
> The Prevention book, a spinoff of Prevention magazine, is like "Nutrition
> 101," says editor David Joachim. "We tried to keep the science easy to
> understand."  Kim Pierce, "When good health means great taste," The Dallas
> Morning News (Nexis), May 20, 1998, p 1F
>
> Hats off to "rediscovering Econ 101" (Editorial, Dec. 14).  Businessmen do
> not seem to recognize the relative elasticity of demand for consumer
> durables.  Peter B. Dowling [Springfield, Mass.], "Readers Report: More or
> Less," Business Week (Nexis), Jan. 20, 1975, p 8
>
> Earlier this year, the big media companies launched a new product that
> they were enormously excited about-the Monica Lewinsky story-only to run
> into a lack of enthusiasm from customers.  John Cassidy, "The Political
> Scene: Monicanomics 101," The New Yorker, Sept. 21, 1998, p73
>
> 1975 (but presumed to be earlier).  Semantic shift (specialization): from
> 101, the number for a college course which is on the most basic level,
> such as Psychology 101.
>
> Regards,
> David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
> The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION [quarterly dictionary]


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Mar 23 14:32:14 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:32:14 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
In-Reply-To: <200403230502.AAA16699@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

My version of this is "You'd lose your head if it wasn't screwed on".  I don't
know whether that's just my family, or a more general feature of British
English.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 14:53:34 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:53:34 -0500
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
In-Reply-To: <200403231311.AQS18324@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Mar 23 15:02:15 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:02:15 -0500
Subject: 101
Message-ID: 

        At least some (most?) schools were doing this 30 years ago, and I suspect that it goes back quite a bit further.  It's an administrative convenience:  Courses in the 100s are for all students, 200s are for sophomores and higher, and so forth, the details of which probably vary from school to school.  As we have already heard, some schools have found a three-digit system inadequate and have moved on to four digits.  On the other hand, my school, Centre College, was so small that we needed just two digits, so the introductory economics course, for example, was Economics 11.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Page Stephens
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:11 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: 101


101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation of the
first course in any subject but in my memory before for whatever reason all
too many colleges/universities designated beginning courses by adding the 10
as a prefix to 1 we used to call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1,
Chemistry 1, English 1, etc. The second courses in the subject would then be
entitled 2, 3, etc.

If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would love
to learn about it.

Page Stephens

PS. why not 1 as opposed to 101.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 15:04:45 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:04:45 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
In-Reply-To: <1080052334.40604a6ed4a81@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:32 AM -0500 3/23/04, Damien Hall wrote:
>My version of this is "You'd lose your head if it wasn't screwed on".  I don't
>know whether that's just my family, or a more general feature of British
>English.
>
My mother (born/raised Troy, NY) used that version of it, so it's not
just British.

Larry Horn


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Mar 23 15:45:23 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:45:23 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B976C@PHEX01.stradley.com >
Message-ID: 

At 10:02 AM 3/23/2004 -0500, John Baker wrote:
>On the other hand, my school, Centre College, was so small that we needed
>just two digits, so the introductory economics course, for example, was
>Economics 11.


Me too. We didn't have such a numbering system at all really. Courses were
called by names not numbers. The only numbers I can think of were on the
English courses -- Literary Tradition I, II, III, and IV. Shortened to Lit.
Trad + number. (And EVERYONE had to take all four regardless of major). Our
beginning politics course (also required of everyone) was called Principles
of American Politics and so forth.



Kathleen E. Miller
The University of Dallas
Class of 1993


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 23 16:21:00 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:21:00 -0500
Subject: 101
In-Reply-To: <200403231539.i2NFdaOG029053@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> Me too. We didn't have such a numbering system at all really. Courses were
> called by names not numbers. The only numbers I can think of were on the
> English courses -- Literary Tradition I, II, III, and IV. Shortened to Lit.
> Trad + number. (And EVERYONE had to take all four regardless of major). Our
> beginning politics course (also required of everyone) was called Principles
> of American Politics and so forth.

At my alma mater, an obscure technical school in Eastern Massachusetts
where even the buildings are known only by numbers, the course numbers
were all-numerical as well: 7.11, 7.16, etc., no words describing the
department.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Tue Mar 23 16:59:27 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:59:27 -0800
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
Message-ID: 

Geoff:

> Even stranger, I found when I arrived at Wayne State University that
> courses here had grown an additional digit, so that Freshman English is
> now 1010.  This change happened several years ago--recent enough
> that some of my colleagues still call courses by their three-digit names
> (so 2720 is still 272).  Since this changes the morphology
> considerably I have to stop and do arithmetic to figure out which course
> they are talking about.


> Geoff

That sounds like the "four digit" system a lot of colleges now use for
course numbering.  I know, 'cause I've sometimes had to look up(usually
through Google)the name of some professor whose courses are listed at
whatever college.  Still, this *is* a change from the "three digit" system
"they" used to use.  And presumably *that* is the source of the "101" you've
been discussing.
Anne G


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Mar 23 17:15:19 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:15:19 -0800
Subject: whack: a cool rule?
In-Reply-To: <1f1.1bd78dd7.2d8ccdad@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 19, 2004, at 2:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ...suppose that speakers associate "That is so wack"
> ... with "wacked"
> and/or "wacky" and think of deletion of the grammatical/derivational
> suffix as
> a rule for the cool...

having just noted a use of the slang noun "dip", with a related
adjective "dippy", i searched for clearly adjective uses of "dip" ("is
really dip", "how dip (of) a"), with no success.  but then i thought of
the very similar "ditz", and hit (small amounts of) paydirt:

... There is a substitute teacher today. Sean says that, she was the
sub a
  few times before and she is really ditz. We didn't do much in choir.
...
  www.nifty.org/nifty/gay/highschool/before-your-love/ before-your-love-2

... I was really ditz back than and my world revolved around looks,
money, and popularity.
  Buffy finished half smirking at herself for how flakey she used to be.
...
  www.slayerette.org/fanfic/ladyaira/fr2.html

----------

meanwhile, after the dick/prick episode, i thought i'd try "pussy", and
immediately turned up:

... Pussy can be used as a noun. As in "He is such a pussy.". Or as an
adjective. As
  in "That was a really pussy call.". It cannot, however be used as an
adverb. ...
  www.yale.edu/superfly/yrum0203.html

... the morning. But since I had tendinitits (or medial/radial
epicondylitis,
  depends who you ask) I did really pussy lifting. I only ...
  qcontrol.web1000.com/ - 45k - Mar 22, 2004

... came about after a drunken Brent DiCrescenzo and Ryan Schreiber
attended a Minnesota  Timberwolves preseason game and Brent noted "how
pussy and retarded" the ...   www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/
g/gloria-record/gloria-record.shtml - 24k - Mar 22, 2004

... alot of **** in his cds but when hes outside of the studio hes a
pussy with tons
  of body guards.i do think he was a gangsta but a really pussy
gansta.plus he ...
  boards.ign.com/Hip-Hop/b5113/54047877/?13

[and more.  this last one has both noun and adjective uses.]

and, *yes*, there's the abbreviated version "puss":

... STRAIGHT DIRTY DIRTY. WARNING: IF YOU HAVE REALLY PUSS SPEAKERS OR
YOU'RE SCARED TO BLOW OUT YOUR EXISTING SPEAKERS, TURN YOUR BASS DOWN!
BASS HEAVY TRACK. ...
  www.soundclick.com/bands/3/dantemacmusic.htm

... P ghehe jab jab at the aussies :) look in the NZIHA newsletters
youll see
  us on the team listing we have a webpage somewhere but its really
puss. ...
  forums.skylinesdownunder.co.nz/ archive/topic/929-1.html

... He just completely ruins that cd for me. The music is some great
straight up
  metal, but his voice is so puss, it doesnt match the music whatsoever.
...
  boards.1up.com/ zd/board/message?board.id=music&message.id=1039&page=3

[there are citations for "puss-ass" (as well as "pussy-ass") too, so
that's another possible source.]

and there's a variant "puss-whipped" of "pussy-whipped"

... This has nothing to do with being "puss-whipped". It's ingrained
into
  society that the best place for children is with their mothers. ...
  inthe00s.com/archive/inthe00s/1058383245.shtml

finally, to bring it all back to where this started, there's
"puss-whacked" as a variant of "puss-whipped":

... this is true you ought to be caught bottom line is he has not ever
had any control
  over you ive told him to control his bitch but he is so puss whacked
that he ...
  www.talkaboutsupport.com/group/alt.support.anxiety-panic/
messages/501682.html

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 23 17:17:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:17:20 -0500
Subject: Lose head if not attached
Message-ID: 

101:  Maybe this designation is from the COBOL programming language that was used at the colleges at this time?

SCREWED ON:  It looks like this is earlier:

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Trenton Evening Times - 6/13/1908
...do belave ye'Q lOiflt yir HEAD If It wasn't SCREWED ON. yez use yir handkerchief or ytr.....ye. Show me yir tONgue. The Diike uhouk hlo HEAD. myke a mlstyke, he replied. 'It ain't.....hy Crawford as a tip Nora decides to 'go ON the stajr, ami thinking to get heraway.....as to what they would do how Nora would get ON kept Mallory and the old people keyed up..
Trenton, New Jersey   Saturday, June 13, 1908  751 k


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Mar 23 20:00:39 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:00:39 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
Message-ID: 

Folks:

I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:

--For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.   Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or even baseball. On down the line.
--I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.

The best that the OED can do is 1869, from Mark Twain, and the entry doesn't include a definition.  The Dictionary of American English had also cited the Twain, and another passage (from the late 1880s as I recall) that included a definition; this defining quotation is omitted by OED.  HDAS doesn't give this sense at all.  And I don't see any other sense of the word "English" in OED that could be used to explain the billiards sense.

I have tried searching the Brooklyn Eagle database, but it seems to be malfunctioning.  A combination of NYTimes and Amer Periodicals through Proquest showed that there were distinct national forms of billiards.
"Nearly all the prominent nations of the world have their national game; and at ony of the prominent rooms on Broadway a spectator may possible witness the American, French, English, Russian and Mexican games, all being played at the same moment.  Of course the first is the game pursued in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred. . . .  The fact cannot be disputed, that no game calls for more scientific ability, both in judgment and execution, that the "Three ball Carambole," or French game, and it is equally certain that the English "winning and losing" game is among those requiring the least skill."  NYTimes, December 27, 1858, p. 5
Nothing is said in detail about "the English "winning and losing" game" and the way it was played, so I don't know whether it particularly called for "putting English on the ball".

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Tue Mar 23 20:00:50 2004
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:00:50 -0600
Subject: "English" in billiards
In-Reply-To: <3598e723596a84.3596a843598e72@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

The week of March 21-27 is Spring Break.  Some of you off-campus, online students aren't aware why I'm missing.  I'll answer e-mails next week when I return from my wanderings.  Hope you have a pleasant week too.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 24 00:21:56 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:21:56 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:00 PM
Subject: "English" in billiards


> I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:
>
> --For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.
Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin
called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone
says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or
even baseball. On down the line.
> --I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.
> GAT

I have a wild speculation.  The slang word 'could' have come from the
English game of cricket.  The early bowler? could make that ball curve more
than a modern baseball major leaguer, no doubt, and  the spin they used
could have been dubbed "English."

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:26:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:26:40 EST
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

That'll Be the Day
Buddy Holly & The Crickets

Well, that'll be the day, when you say goodbye
Yes, that'll be the day, when you make me cry
You say you're gonna leave, you know it's a lie
'Cause that'll be the day when I die


   The Chicago Historical Society has my "Windy City" stuff for over two
weeks now and still no reply.  Only a few more days or weeks or years or decades,
I'm thinking, until I get the tiniest among of respect.
   That'll be the day.
   The famous Buddy Holly song is from 1957.  It's said that Holly took the
line from the John Ford-directed John Wayne film THE SEARCHERS (1956).  We'll
search a little further.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE..COM)
Troy Record - 10/12/1943
...Labor Union Local 20.53S. i "THAT'LL BE THE DAY Crossword Puzzle Cocr.
19U. Esso Inc.....THE bird's name "Bullet Proof." ORDER THE DAY Richmond, Va.
John Marshall, reporter on.....to your car that gets more important every DAY...
"EVERY CAR that still runs is an.....on Columbus. OTHEr j prominent Knights
will DAY short addresses. THEre will BE..
Troy, New York   Tuesday, October 12, 1943  877 k
Pg. 3, col. 1:  _Anything Can Happen--And Does_
Pg. 3, col. 6:  The group officers still officially frown on Rea's
anti-Luftwaffe campaign but there are a few side bets among them on whether he will yet
score a victory.
   "It's all for my own amusement," said the sergeant, untroubled by any
doubts himself, "and I'll keep at it until I do get one.
   "That'll be the day."

Council Bluffs Iowa Nonpareil - 4/16/1948
...instead of embalmed minnows. THAT'LL BE THE DAY When Glenn Ford relaxes
from Ills work in.....bomBErs. THE British method is suppiscd to BE very similar
to that used by THE air force.....a line with velght and hook on THE end. THE
Inc forms an arc BEhind THE ilano. THE.....ho bomBEr reels back THE line and
THE hose. THE hose autonatlcally fastens into THE..
Council Bluffs, Iowa   Friday, April 16, 1948  568 k

Zanesville Signal - 12/28/1945
...defeat, and which is found in a DAY-to-DAY history of THE war, once our
armed forces.....for past insults to newsmen. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Big scandal in
music row concerning a.....ceased, while THE Army message of THE same DAY to
General Short stated that THEy.....story of events leading up to that unhappy
DAY is unfolded. A most recent example was..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, December 28, 1945  963 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/12/1942
...of Kellogg's Corn Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till sfce tastes
that can't-BE.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And soon she'll BE
old enough to dig.....and sugar, really helps no sail through THE DAY. Aad
breakfast is always on tune sow that.....here owing to flying conditions. During
THE DAY officials inspected THE military centre..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Wednesday, August 12, 1942  949 k

Frederick Post - 9/12/1943
...him for mayor next year, THAT'LL BE THE DAY S. Billirigsley is.
disillusioned. His.....of THE Jewish War Veterans THE oTHEr DAY. National Commander
Julius Klein of.....married to a medico) expects an image any DAY. She was Tirana
in that MeeSatira.....holler, "Author, and mean him, THEn one DAY he met up
with a young songwrlter who..
Frederick, Maryland   Sunday, September 12, 1943  775 k
Pg. 4, col. 3 (Winchell on Broadway):
   Cong. Marcantonio intends "evening (Col. 4--ed.) things" with O'Dwyer by
running against him for mayor next year.  That'll be the day!

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 10/18/1945
...may BE had for THE asking .'THAT'LL BE THE DAY" .Meanwhile, in spite of
war-imposed.....m P. w 'n o s r. h e a ted en 5. S u n DAY morning, THE
PitLsfielri ChamBEr ofl.....BE paid for any period of time prior to THE date in which
THE additional information.....We're very proud of what we've got and you'll
see mliy with your first tankful of THE..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Thursday, October 18, 1945  448 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/13/1942
...of Kellogg's Com Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till site tastes
that can't-BE.....and sugar, really helps me sail through THE DAY. And breakfast
is always on time sow that.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And
soon shell BE old enough to dig into.....bad weaTHEr. This was special
GrandmoTHErs' DAY and THE program was given by THE children..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Thursday, August 13, 1942  952 k

Lethbridge Herald - 8/12/1942
...of Kellogg's Corn Flakes. THAT'LL BE THE DAY Just wait till sfce tastes
that can't-BE.....eager mind discovers new wonders every DAY. And soon she'll BE
old enough to dig.....and sugar, really helps no sail through THE DAY. Aad
breakfast is always on tune sow that.....here owing to flying conditions. During
THE DAY officials inspected THE military centre..
Lethbridge, Alberta   Wednesday, August 12, 1942  949 k
Pg. 5, cols. 5-8 ad:
"GO ON!  Do something--I dare ya!  Oh, scared, eh!?"  Baby Lois' eager mind
discovers new wonders every day.  And soon she'll be old enough to dig into a
breakfast bowl of Kellogg's Corn Flakes.  That'll be the day!  Just wait till
she tastes that can't-be-matched _flavour_!  How is _your_ supply of Kellogg's?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:28:36 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:28:36 EST
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/23/2004 9:27:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> among of respect.
>

amount

Barry "too many parking tickets" Popik


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Mar 24 02:42:26 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:42:26 -0500
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)
Message-ID: 

From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: "That'll be the day" (1942)


> That'll Be the Day
> Buddy Holly & The Crickets
>
> Well, that'll be the day, when you say goodbye
> Yes, that'll be the day, when you make me cry
> You say you're gonna leave, you know it's a lie
> 'Cause that'll be the day when I die
>
>    That'll be the day.
>    The famous Buddy Holly song is from 1957.  It's said that Holly took
the
> line from the John Ford-directed John Wayne film THE SEARCHERS (1956).
We'll
> search a little further.

Of course, the writer of that song perhaps DID take it from the movie.  Not
much to say that it wasn't.

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 24 02:43:56 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:43:56 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards
In-Reply-To: <3598e723596a84.3596a843598e72@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

(1) The 'default' explanation -- given (e.g.) at various Web sites
(including Straight Dope and Morris) and in Hendrickson's book -- seems to
be that "English" (= "side-spin in billiards") < "body English" (= "body
language") < "English" (= "language"). This is not entirely implausible as
it stands. However, I don't immediately find "body English" before 1900. If
"body English" existed before 1869, this origin remains in contention.

(2) To me, the converse seems more natural anyway: "body English" (=
"side-spin notionally imparted by body motions") < "English" (= "side-spin
in billiards"). Then whence the billiards word?

(3) One might presume "English" to be a contraction of "English spin" or
so. Then presumably it would be a type of spin thought to be from England
or associated with English billiards or something English ... or maybe spin
in general would have been thought to be English in some way. If the basic
idea was "from England" then one would expect the term to have been absent
in England itself; and indeed I believe the term was originally American
and non-English ... FWIW.

(4) Here is one possibility:

http://www.snookergames.co.uk/history1.html

shows a piece of billiards history or folklore wherein the
inventor/popularizer of billiards spin departed England, to amaze and
fleece the players in Spain. If the story is true, his novel technique
might very naturally have been called "English", in Spain and presumably
later elsewhere. If this story isn't true, perhaps some similar story is.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 24 07:27:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:27:29 -0800
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
Message-ID: 

That's the title of one of Richard Lederer's syndicated columns on the
English language, which I came across on page 19 of the March 2004
Funny Times (a Cleveland, Ohio, compendium of recent humorous cartoons
and essays, with what now counts as a way-left tinge to its politics).
Yes, like Lederer's columns in general, it's supposed to be funny --
he's fond of puns and other kinds of word play -- but it's also
supposed to be instructive.  (Lederer is, after all, an English
professor.)

This one is a collection of writing errors, a vein that Lederer often
taps.  The fall into error is a brand of humor that tends to have a
nasty edge to it, a superior They Should Have Known Better tone when
directed (as in this case) towards professionals,  a sneering They Are
Ignorant Fools tone when aimed at ordinary folks, in particular
students, with their extraordinary word choices, erratic spellings, and
uncertain grasp of facts.  (Look, I'm a teacher, and have been for
forty years, and of course I sit around with other veterans and tell
amazing war stories, but these occasions are suffused by sadness, since
our students' failures are our collective failures too.)

I guess we're supposed to be shamed into learning some important lesson
from these bad examples, but it would be hard for even a compliant and
well-disposed reader to do much with what Lederer provides in this
column.

Worse still, Lederer is, whether we like it or not, a significant
public face of scholarship in English grammar.  This is one of the main
ways the literate (but non-linguist) world gets to see what we do.  Oi.

But on to the participles.  Or, I should say, "participles", since only
five of Lederer's fifteen Horrible Examples actually involve
participles (two present participles and three past participles).  The
rest have modifiers of other types -- six prepositional phrases, one
infinitival, one relative clause, one reduced comparative -- plus one
pronominal reference example that involves modifiers only because the
pronoun is inside one, though this example does superficially resemble
classic dangling-modifier cases.  The real theme -- twelve of the
fifteen examples -- turns out to be attachment ambiguities.  Surprise!

So here's Problem 1: The article is actually about modifiers in
general, not just participles.  This is just inexcusably sloppy for a
professor of English offering grammatical advice; people are confused
enough as it is about grammatical terminology, and now Lederer's column
throws "modifier" and "participle" around as if they were synonyms.

The headline is a disaster in this regard, and so is the framing text:

   The _AP Press Guide to News Writing_ advises: "The language
   has many ways to trip you up, most deviously through a modifier
   that turns up in the wrong place.  Don't let related ideas in a
   sentence drift apart.  Modifiers should be close to the word they
   purport to modify."  These statements culled from newspapers and
   magazines demonstrate what happens when a writer dangles his
   or her participles in public:

Horrible Example 1 has a wonky infinitival modifier:

   (1)
   The family lawyer will read the will tomorrow at the residence of
   Mr. Hannon, who died June 19 to accommodate his relatives.

and we don't get to an actual participle until example 6:

   (6)
   The burglar was about 30 years old, white, 5' 10", with wavy
   hair weighing about 150 pounds.

-- an attachment ambiguity that probably results from simple comma
omission; certainly, it could be fixed by treating "weighing about 150
lbs." as the fifth in a series of descriptors and setting it off by a
comma:

   (6')
   The burglar was about 30 years old, white, 5' 10', with wavy
   hair, weighing about 150 pounds.

All five of the descriptors apply to the burglar, but there's no way to
keep *all* of them close to "the burglar" -- though if you insisted on
keeping "weighing about 150 pounds" right next to "the burglar", you
could do it:

   (6")
   The burglar, weighing about 150 pounds, was about 30 years old,
   white, 5' 10", with wavy hair.

   Weighing about 150 pounds, the burglar was about 30 years old,
   white, 5' 10", with wavy hair.

These versions, however, highlight the burglar's avoirdupois in a way
that the writer almost surely didn't want, and they lose the nice
increasing-weight effect of (6'), which puts the longest, heaviest
descriptor last.  (It would also be possible to shorten "weighing about
150 pounds" to "about 150 pounds" and move it up in the descriptor
list.)

Horrible Example 15 might well be a simple comma error too:

   (15)
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout against hate
   crimes organized by the Marin County Human Rights Roundtable.

Here there are two dependents on "a speakout": the prepositional phrase
"against hate  crimes" and the participial "organized by the Marin
County Human Rights Roundtable".  Once again, we cannot possibly get
*both* of these dependents up against "a speakout"; we could move the
participial up --

   (15')
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout organized by the
   Marin County Human Rights Rountable against hate crimes.

This is clunky, because of the long-before-short order, and it's also
potentially ambiguous, with a "Rountable against hate crimes" reading
that strikes me as about as likely -- not very -- as the "hate crimes
organized by the MCHRR" reading of (15).  A much simpler fix would be
to set off "organized by the MCHRR"  in (15) by a comma; a somewhat
more complex fix would be to move it forward *and* set it off:

   (15")
   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout against hate
   crimes, organized by the Marin County Human Rights Roundtable.

   An ethnically diverse crowd of about 50 gathered at the Falkirk
   Mansion in San Rafael yesterday for a speakout, organized by the
   Marin County Human Rights Rountable, against hate crimes.

Similar remarks apply to:

   (13)
   Hunting can also be dangerous, as in the case of pygmies hunting
   elephants armed only with spears.

Still another participle Horrible Example, 12,  is almost surely the
result of that very common punctuation error, failing to use a comma
between conjuncts:

   (12)
   We spent most of our time sitting on the back porch watching the
   cows playing Scrabble and reading.

(I assume that we're not entertaining a reading in which the back porch
watches cows, only a reading in which the cows play Scrabble and read.)

This is spiffily fixed with a single comma:

   (12')
   We spent most of our time sitting on the back porch watching the
   cows, playing Scrabble and reading.

On the other hand, moving "playing Scrabble and reading" up to the
front, real close to the verb "spent", produces a sentence in which our
attention is strangely divided:

   (12")
   Playing Scrabble and reading, we spent most of our time sitting on
   the back porch watching the cows.

One more example, this time with a prepositional phrase instead of a
participial phrase: Horrible Example 9.

   (9)
   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate in the form of lectures, printed literature and
   promotional items.

The problem is to convey that it's the information that comes in the
form of lectures and so on, not that it's the garbage that comes that
way, or that the garbage is generated in those forms.  In this case,
moving the "in the form of..." phrase up will work nicely, so long as
(once again) it's set off by commas, or the even stronger dashes
(otherwise we risk the unintended reading "items on how to reduce..."):

   (9')
   Residents will be given information, in the form of lectures, printed
   literature and promotional items, on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage  they generate.

   Residents will be given information -- in the form of lectures,
printed
   literature and promotional items -- on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage  they generate.

Or we could leave  the "in the form of..." phrase where it is, but set
it off:

   (9")
   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate, in the form of lectures, printed literature and
   promotional items.

   Residents will be given information on how to reduce the amount of
   garbage they generate -- in the form of lectures, printed literature
and
   promotional items.

Yes, the versions in (9") might still be misparsed, but they could
probably succeed just fine in context.

On to Problem 2: As is so often the case, the advisors don't actually
come right out and explain why there's an issue with the examples.
Lederer and the _AP Guide_ tell you to keep your modifiers close to the
things they modify, but they fail to mention why you should do that --
or, in fact, why the fifteen examples are (presented as) ludicrous.
The missing word is *ambiguity*.  Every single one of the Horrible
Examples runs awry, at least in Lederer's judgment, because of an
alternative interpretation that the writer didn't intend but the reader
might fix on.

Example (1) can be read as saying that Mr. Hannon died to accommodate
his relatives (which might or might not be true, but it probably wasn't
what the writer had in mind), while the intended reading is that the
reading of the will tomorrow is to accommodate Mr. Hannon's relatives.
Fixing this can't be managed just by moving "to accommodate his
relatives" closer to "read" than to "died", since other adjustments are
needed; this is left as an exercise for the reader.

Example (3) could be read as describing a passer-by with a bullet in
his head, instead of a bullet-riddled body:

   (3)
   The body was found in an alley by a passer-by with a bullet in his
head.

Once again, just moving the prepositional phrase "with a bullet in his
head" forward (and setting it off with commas) is not necessarily the
best move:

   (3')
   With a bullet in his head, the body was found in an alley by a
passer-by.

   The body, with a bullet in his head, was found  in an alley by a
passer-by.

The problem is the highlighting of the bullet in (3').  What really
works here is the simplest of adjustments -- making the shot passer-by
reading more unlikely by referring to the body as an inanimate object,
via the pronoun "it", with no movement of setting-off at all:

   (3")
   The body was found in an alley by a  passer-by with a bullet in its
head.

An equally easy fix is available for the following example, which (at
least out of context) induces giggles:

   (14)
   Police searched into the night for a man armed with a shotgun that
walked
   into a Boulder pharmacy Thursday morning, demanded drugs and then
   fled.

This is another one with two dependents of a single head, in this case
"a man".  Moving "armed with a shotgun" after the relative clause
doesn't help things at all, but a simple change in relative pronoun,
picking out a specifically human antecedent, does the trick:

   (14')
   Police searched into the night for a man armed with a shotgun who
walked
   into a Boulder pharmacy Thursday morning, demanded drugs and then
   fled.

Problem 3: The advisors talk as  if any *potential* ambiguity were a
problem that needed fixing.  This way lies madness.  Attachment
ambiguities and pronominal reference ambiguities are just *everywhere*.
  Telling writers to avoid potential ambiguities is pretty much telling
them to give up writing entirely.

Potential ambiguities aren't the issue; effective ambiguities,
ambiguities that a reasonable (and well-intentioned) reader might
stumble on, are the issue.  Picking out potential ambiguities requires
(merely!) that you know the syntax of the language.  Picking out
effective ambiguities, which you might seriously want to avoid,
requires factoring in common knowledge, your audience's mind-set,
prosodic effects, the discourse context, and much else.  Usage manuals
are almost all piss-poor at this sort of thing.  Lord knows what
students are supposed to make of their advice.

Now, some of Lederer's examples really are laughable, at least out of
context, because  the unintended reading just juts out.  The effect is
especially strong for very short sentence-final modifiers, which tend
to latch onto preceding stuff:

   (5)
   Organ donations from the living reached a record high last year,
   outnumbering donors who are dead for the first time.

("...dead donors for the first time" would fix this, without movement,
though movement works too.  Setting "for the first time " off by a
comma might work too.)

   (7)
   Beginning with three games on Tuesday, the unmistakable drama
   of postseason baseball will grip all of us who love the game for a
   month.

("...all of us baseball lovers for a month" would do, and maybe setting
off "for a month" with a comma.  All of the movement possibilities for
"for a month" sound awkward to me.)

   (11)
   The dog was hungry and made the mistake of nipping a 2-year-old
   that was trying to force feed it in his ear.

(Moving "in the ear" forward pushes it between a verb form, "nipping",
and its object, which is very awkward.  Moving it before "nipping" is
completely impossible, since "nipping..." is the object of the
preposition "of", and you just can't mess with a  preposition and its
object.  Major recasting is best: "the mistake of nipping the ear of a
2-year old that was...")

Problem 4: Examples are judged out of context, when in fact discourse
organization, information structure, common knowledge, and the like
play incredibly important roles in the interpretation of sentences -- a
fact you might never appreciate from presentations like Lederer's.

Here's the dangler-like pronominal-reference example from Lederer's
Failed Fifteen:

   (8)
   Despite its dismal record in human rights, the House of
Representatives
   has granted most favored nation status to China.

In isolation, it would be easy to (mis)interpret (8) as attributing a
dismal human-rights record  to the House.  But in a discourse that's
about China, the intended interpretation would come through without any
problem.

Similar remarks hold about some of the examples above, not to mention
sentences you can collect any day -- "...are trying to stop spam in
federal court" (news report on NPR's _Morning Edition_, 3/11/04), "I
found out what we'd done in '92" (line from the tv show _Law and
Order_; in the context, it's absolutely clear that it was the finding
out that happened  in 1992).

Problem 5: Movement is offered as the only solution (because
mislocation is identified as the only problem), despite the fact that,
as I pointed out above, movement is sometimes not even possible
(preserving the intended meaning), often not especially useful, and
sometimes not the best solution.

Look at Lederer's deer-hunting example:

   (2)
   Mrs. Shirley Baxter, who went deer hunting with her husband, is
   very proud that she was able to shoot a fine buck as well as her
   husband.

Moving "as well as her husband" after "shoot" favors the unintended
meaning.  Moving it after "able", and setting it off with commas, is
possible but really awkward.  The easy solution is not to reduce the
comparative quite so much:

   (2')
   Mrs. Shirley Baxter, who went deer hunting with her husband, is
   very proud that she was able to shoot a fine buck as well as her
   husband can.

This is not to deny that sometimes movement is the way to go.  The one
absolutely classic sort of dangling-modifier example in Lederer's list
really needs the modifier moved, from:

   (10)
   Aided by a thousand eyes, the author explains how ants navigate and
   how they use dead reckoning.

to:

   (10')
   The author explains how, aided by a thousand eyes, ants navigate
   and how they use dead reckoning.

   The author explains how ants, aided by a thousand eyes, navigate
   and how they use dead reckoning.

Problem 6: Not so crucial as the others, but the assumption that what
modifiers modify is a single *word* (rather than some larger
constituent) can present puzzles for the student.  Look at Lederer's
sixth example (yes, this is the only one left):

   (6)
   The suspect was spotted in a vehicle matching the description
   of one which had been stolen from the Annabelle area by Sheriff's
   Office Sgt. Craig White.

The textbook doctrine here is that the problem is that "by Sheriff's
Office Sgt. Craig White" needs to be close to the word it modifies,
"spotted" (how, by the way, does the student learn what modifies
what?).  And, in fact, moving it right after "spotted" does the job:

   (6')
   The suspect was spotted by Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White in a
   vehicle matching the description of one which had been stolen
   from the Annabelle area.

But the clever student will notice that in (6'), "in a vehicle..."
isn't close to the word it modifies.  (Clever professionals understand
that the problem with (6) isn't really separation, but an inadvertent
attachment ambiguity.)  Why isn't that bad?

An even more  clever student will wonder why "The suspect was spotted
in a vehicle by Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White" doesn't need to be
reworded to (the more marked version) "The suspect was spotted by
Sheriff's Office Sgt. Craig White in a  vehicle".  The short answer is
that the "by"-phrase modifies a whole VP and that putting it after the
VP *is* locating it next to the thing it modifies.  It *can* occur
after the head of the expression it modifies, if that avoids an
effective ambiguity and/or allows a long and heavy constituent (like
"in a vehicle matching the description of one which had been stolen
from the Annabelle area") to come last in the sentence, but that's not
its usual location.

So...  we can guffaw at these examples, ripped out of their contexts
and paraded in front of us under the banner of "dangling participles"
perpetrated by writers who should have known better.  or we can wonder,
sadly, what a reader who's hoping to learn something from a professor
of English can make of all this -- confusingly labeled examples, a rule
that drops from the sky, no guidance about when the rule is important
and when it's not, instructions for repair that are hard to follow and
often lead to very odd results.  If you didn't already know how to
write well, could you learn anything from Lederer's column?

That's a rhetorical question.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 24 12:16:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:16:38 EST
Subject: "Uttapam" of Indian vegetarian cooking
Message-ID: 

ENGLISH--I might have a free day tomorrow to research "English" and
"Uttapam."  Can the ESPN guy wait one day for a correct "English" answer?...He knows
me.  (See "drag racing" in ADS-L archives.)  Why didn't he contact me?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
UTTAPAM

UTTAPAM--635 Google hits, 133 Google Groups hits

   A short post before wasting yet another day of my life doing parking
tickets.
   Did I just do "Curry Hill" with "Times Square"?  Well, in Wednesday's NEW
YORK TIMES:

   Chennai Garden, along with Curry Leaf, has some of the best food in the
neighborhood known as Curry Hill, which radiates out from Lexington Avenue and
28th Street.

   Radiates?
   Declares the TIMES today:

After Centuries, the Vegetarian Feast of India Finally Arrives
By JULIA MOSKIN
Published: March 24, 2004
SUVIR SARAN, a chef at the ambitious new Indian restaurant Amma, in Midtown,
has never tasted the restaurant's tandoor-grilled lamb chops. "My family in
Delhi have been vegetarians for generations," he said. "At least since the 15th
century. Before that we are not so sure." Jehangir Mehta, the pastry chef at
Aix on the Upper West Side, grew up in Mumbai, where about 30 percent of the 12
million residents are vegetarian. "The vegetarian cooking of India is
excellent training for a pastry chef," he said. "It teaches you how much range can be
achieved with spices and herbs." India has the most varied vegetarian cooking
in the world, and it has been thousands of years in the making. Now, finally,
it is also widely available and authentically prepared in restaurants across
New York City.

   Yeah, you thought that Little India had existed for several generations
now.  But the TIMES has just declared that Indian vegetarian food has finally
arrived.  And you haven't arrived until the TIMES says you've arrived.
    (OT:  "Uttapam" will get more ink than "the Big Apple."  Just try killing
yourself on a parking ticket paper cut.  You can't do it.  That'll be the
day.)
    "Uttapam" is not in the OED.  Indian food has now officially ARRIVED, so
here's the rest of the TIMES' take:

   Many New Yorkers who have adopted dosas are moving on to idlis, also
crafted from rice and lentils but much thicker and fluffier than dosas. When
well-made, idlis have the pillowy texture and light tang of the perfect buttermilk
pancake. Uttapams are also something like pancakes, but the batter is poured
around tomatoes, mushrooms, onions or mushrooms, to make tender,
vegetable-studded rounds.
   Idlis and uttapams are always served with a bowl of sambar, a soupy, tangy
tamarind-spiked stew of lentils and vegetables that is synonymous with South
Indian cooking.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: south indian restaurants in San Francisco
... San Francisco. I will be there for five days in June and would like
to catch up on my dosa and uttapam quota for the year. I am ...
soc.culture.indian - Jun 2, 1992 by ksrao at POWER.EEE.NDSU.NODAK.EDU - View
Thread (4 articles)

Dosai recipe (followup from Uttapam)
... accompanying recipes. For the uttapam, follow directions for GRINDING
and then start using the uttapam instructions. Good luck. radhika ...
rec.food.cooking - Mar 10, 1992 by Radhika Thekkath - View Thread (1 article)

Re: REQUEST: UTTAPAM
In his article weisman at osf.org (David Weisman) writes: I was in a Southern
Indian restaurant and had a dish called Uttapam. It was ...
rec.food.cooking - Mar 7, 1992 by Radhika Thekkath - View Thread (4 articles)


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Mar 24 13:03:24 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:03:24 -0500
Subject: 101:  Course Inflation
Message-ID: 

From:    Geoff Nathan 
: Page Stephens wrote:

:: 101 no doubt stems from academic usage in terms of the designation
:: of the first course in any subject but in my memory before for
:: whatever reason all too many colleges/universities designated
:: beginning courses by adding the 10 as a prefix to 1 we used to
:: call beginning courses as 1, i.e. Physics 1, Chemistry 1, English 1,
:: etc. The second courses in the subject would then be entitled 2, 3,
:: etc.

:: If anyone out there has any idea where or when 101 replaced 1 I would
:: love to learn about it.

Well, as other responses have pointed out, it's not quite that simple, and
seems to be related to the size of the school and, possibly, the system
schools use to conduct registration.

For example, if a large school (say, the U of Maryland College Park, my
undergrad institution) knows its department with the largest number of
courses has more than 99 but less than 1,000, and the school's system for
registration would go easier if all course numbers had the same number of
digits, then it makes sense for all courses to have 3-digit numbers.

That's just speculation, of course. But a system where (say, like at Penn,
my grad school) 1xx and 2xx marks introductory undergrad courses, 3xx marks
advanced undergrad courses, 4xx marks undergrad courses grad students can
take for credit, 5xx marks grad courses advanced undergrads can take, 6xx
marks grad-only courses, 7xx marks (IIRC) master's thesis credit, and 8xx
(marks (IIRC) dissertation credit seems more transparent than Physics 1, 2,
3,...,n to me, at least once you know the system--you can tell at a glance
with a course is cupposed to be and who can take it.

: Even stranger, I found when I arrived at Wayne State University that
: courses here had grown an additional digit, so that Freshman English
: is now 1010. This change happened several years ago--recent enough
: that some of my colleagues still call courses by their three-digit
: names (so 2720 is still 272). Since this changes the morphology
: considerably I have to stop and do arithmetic to figure out which
: course they are talking about.

In Florida (for all public institutions and many private institutions) a
4-digit numbering system is *mandatory*. The description of the system
according to the U of Central Florida catalog:

  "Courses in this catalog are identified by prefixes and numbers that
   were assigned by Florida?s Statewide Course Numbering System. This
   common numbering system is used by all public postsecondary
   institutions in Florida and by twenty-six participating non-public
   institutions. The major purpose of this system is to facilitate the
   transfer of courses between participating institutions.

  "Each participating institution controls the title, credit, and content
   of its own courses and recommends the first digit of the course number
   to indicate the level at which students normally take the course.
   Course prefixes and the last three digits of the course numbers are
   assigned by members of faculty discipline committees appointed for that
   purpose by the Florida Department of Education in Tallahassee...

  "The course prefix and each digit in the course number have meaning in
   the Statewide Course Numbering System (SCNS). The list of course
   prefixes and numbers, along with their generic titles, is referred to
   as the 'SCNS taxonomy.' Descriptions of the content of courses are
   referred to as 'course equivalency profiles.'"

So sometimes there is method to the (very deep and disturbed) madness.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Mar 24 15:02:28 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:02:28 -0500
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:27 PM -0800 3/23/04, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>That's the title of one of Richard Lederer's syndicated columns on the
>English language, which I came across on page 19 of the March 2004
>Funny Times (a Cleveland, Ohio, compendium of recent humorous cartoons
>and essays, with what now counts as a way-left tinge to its politics).
>Yes, like Lederer's columns in general, it's supposed to be funny --
>he's fond of puns and other kinds of word play -- but it's also
>supposed to be instructive.  (Lederer is, after all, an English
>professor.)
>
Indeed.  Words to, or at least from, the wise, as always from Arnold.
Lederer is an interesting case.  His children include two world-class
poker players, Howard Lederer and Annie Duke (as I learned from James
McManus's great memoir, _Positively Fifth Street_); Annie advanced
farther (ninth place, I believe) than any other woman in the annual
World Series of Poker.  Another sibling, Katie Lederer, a poet and
author of the earlier _Winter Sex_, recently published her own memoir
of what it was like growing up with a father who was a boarding
school English teacher who writes humorous and/or prescriptive
language books on the side, a mother whose main joys in life were
scotch and crossword puzzles, and two professional poker playing
siblings.   Her book on the Lederer tribe is called, of course,
_Poker Face_ (Crown, 2003).

larry horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Mar 24 18:43:02 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:43:02 -0800
Subject: Don't Dangle Your Participles in Public
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:27 PM, i wrote:

> ... (Lederer is, after all, an English
> professor.)

as larry horn has gently noted in his follow-up posting, i misspoke
here; lederer is not in fact a professor of english, but a long-time
instructor of english, at st. paul's school.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), back at his study/library, where he
can
   consult sources


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Mar 25 02:57:30 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:57:30 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?

Gerald Cohen



At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>Hello.
>any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>shows. what's happening?
>many thanks,
>Bill Hendrick


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:19:41 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:19:41 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403250306.i2P36K205325@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.

Jim Parish

Gerald Cohen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Gerald Cohen 
> Subject:      Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
> signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
> At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
> >Hello.
> >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
> >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
> >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
> >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
> >shows. what's happening?
> >many thanks,
> >Bill Hendrick


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:34:38 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:34:38 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <4061FB6D.10088.3F24EBB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

"The Bridges of Madison County" was published in 1992, and the movie
came out in 1995.

Jim Parish wrote:
>Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
>came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
>know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.
>
>Jim Parish
>
>Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       Gerald Cohen 
>>  Subject:      Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
>>  signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>>
>>  Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>>  >Hello.
>>  >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>>  >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>>  >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>>  >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>>  >shows. what's happening?
>>  >many thanks,
>>  >Bill Hendrick


--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:46:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:46:17 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 8:57 PM -0600 3/24/04, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>Atlanta reporter Bill Hendrick sent me the questions below my
>signoff, but I don't have the answers. Would anyone in ans-l know?
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
>At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>>Hello.
>>any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>>now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>>32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>>names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>>shows. what's happening?
>>many thanks,
>>Bill Hendrick

One standard answer is the use of the name for the mermaid played by
Daryl (sp?) Hannah in "Splash" (opposite Tom Hanks).  It was actually
quite a painless comedy, and Hannah was a lovely mermaid.  The Hanks
character asks her her name at some point while walking in Midtown
Manhattan, she doesn't have one (being a mermaid and all), and looks
up at the Madison Ave. street sign, and the rest is history.    The
problem with this theory is that "Splash" was released in the
mid-1980s, and evidently the big jump in popularity came quite a bit
later.

Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 03:47:18 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:47:18 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <4061FB6D.10088.3F24EBB@localhost>
Message-ID: 

At 9:19 PM -0600 3/24/04, Jim Parish wrote:
>Daryl Hannah's character in "Splash" was named Madison; the movie
>came out in 1984, and I've heard it said - with what reliability, I don't
>know - that the popularity of the name arose from that source.
>
>Jim Parish
>
Oops.  Sorry for the repetition of Jim's point.  Should have looked
through the rest of my mailer before replying.

Larry Horn


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 25 03:54:45 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:57 PM
Subject: Fwd: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?

While it doesn't answer your quesiton, it deserves to be read.
http://www.wesclark.com/ubn/below_the_beltway.html
Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 04:28:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:28:05 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

   OT, FOR THE RECORD:  I have never laid a hand on my wife Jennifer Lopez.
   From the ADS-L ARCHIVES:

On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:

> Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
> he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.

I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
conflated the two people.

Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
all their reporting is riddled with errors.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
The Ringmaster of Old.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27, 1901. p. SM18 (1 page) :
(Same article as in APS ONLINE in 1902.  Both are from THE CORNHILL--ed.)


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
THE CIRCUS.; THE LAMENT OF A PURE MIND.
E V Lucas. Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature (1901-1907). New York: Jan 1902. Vol. 138, Iss. 1; p. 92 (6 pages)
Pg. 93:  The first question was anything; the second question was anything; but the third, propounded by the clown after long self-communing, was steeped in guile: "Do you _still_ beat your wife?"  There is no way out of that; affirmative and negative alike are powerless to rob the "still" of its sting; and off goes the clown with his bottle of wine, crack goes the whip, round ambles the old white horse with a back like Table Mountain, and the Signortna resumes her pretty capers.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal)
MR. BRYAN'S TRICK QUESTIONS.
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1911. p. 1 (1 page) :
   Perhaps Mr. Bryan would like to answer one or two questions framed after the "Do you still beat your wife?" model, bearing upon his own financial past?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
   The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.  The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
   But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book by Gus C. Edwards.
   In the book, Mr. Siegel said, the joke goes as follows: A browbeating lawyer was demanding that a witness answer a certain question either in the negative of affirmative.
   "I cannot do it," the witness said.  "There are some questions that cannot be answered by a 'yes' or a 'no,' as anyone knows."
   "I defy you to give an example to the court," thundered the lawyer.  The retort came like a flash: "Are you still beating your wife?"
   A sickly grin spread over the lawyer's face and he sat down.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 04:57:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:57:05 -0500
Subject: The dog ate my homework (1962)
Message-ID: 

 DOG ATE + HOMEWORK--13,600 Google hits, 6,090 Google Groups hits

   There's just not enough Puppy Chow in this world.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
In a Class by Themselves
By FLORENCE CROWTHER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 18, 1962. p. BR10 (1 page) :
   Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school; the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it; mother was sick; last night was Scout meeting; it rained.

Excuse Me!; A History of Delightful Deceits And Other Unpardonable Talk Making One's Excuses
By Michael Kernan. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jul 6, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages)

The Dog Ate My Homework
William McPherson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 27, 1984. p. A23 (1 page)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Aaugh! A dog ate my book report /
Author: Schulz, Charles M.; Schulz, Charles M.
Publication: [New York] : HarperCollins, 1998

My dog ate it /
Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
Publication: New York : Holiday House, 1994

The dog ate my homework /
Author: Haynes, Betsy.
Publication: New York : HarperPaperbacks, 1997

The dog ate my homework :
personal responsibility--how we avoid it and what to do about it /
Author: Barry, Vincent E.
Publication: Kansas City, Mo. : Andrews and McMeel, 199? (accidentally deleted--ed.)

The dog ate my home work :
poems /
Author: Holbrook, Sara.
Publication: Honesdale, Pa. : Boyds Mills Press, 1996

The dog ate it :
conquering homework hassles /
Author: McEwan, Elaine K., 1941-
Publication: Wheaton, Ill. : Harold Shaw Publishers, 1996

My dog ate my homework! :
a collection of funny poems /
Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen,
Publication: Minnetonka, MN : New York : Meadowbrook Press ; Distributed by Simon & Schuster, 2002, 1996

The dog ate my homework social skills for today /
Author: Slonecki, Catherine. Publication: Freeport, NY :; Educational Activities/Activity Records, 1995

My dog ate it /
Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
Publication: New York : Scholastic Inc., 1994

My dog ate my homework :
and other lame excuses!
Publication: Lansing, MI : Office of Highway Safety Planning, 2001

The dog ate my homework
Author: Caserta, Carmen Dana.; Eberl, Luke., and others Publication: Jacksonville, IL : New Dimension Media, Inc., 1999
Document: English : Visual Material  : Videorecording : Elementary and junior high school  :  VHS tape

My homework ate my dog :
great cartoons from the Phi Delta Kappan, 1991-1996 /
Author: Bucheri, Carol.; Way, Sheila.
Publication: Bloomington, Ind. : Phi Delta Kappa International, 1996

The dog ate my home work /
Author: Holbrook, Sara.
Publication: [Bay Village, Ohio] : S. Holbrook, 1993

My dog ate my retirement plan :
how to find an extra $1,000 a month when you retire /
Author: Greenleaf, Geofrey, J.
Publication: Cleveland, OH : Greenleaf, 2003

My dog ate my homework! /
Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen.
Publication: Minnetonka, Minn. : Poole : Meadowbrook ; Chris Lloyd, 2003, 1996


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Mar 25 05:02:00 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:02:00 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: 
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)



> I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
> intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
> Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
> stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
> referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
> told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
> conflated the two people.
> all their reporting is riddled with errors.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
> On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
> By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>    The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.
The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy
that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
>    But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not
to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book
by Gus C. Edwards.

So, you're saying that Fred has a secret identity?

Abby certainly isn't a "Good nough*" reporter, based on that story.

Pronounced 'good nuff' in my world.  :)

Sam Clements


From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 08:52:51 2004
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:52:51 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403250354.i2P3sopH026766@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

Speculation: because Madison isn't necessarily a name for girls. If so in part,
may it, speculatively, parallel an increasing (?) tendency of women to change
their first name, in some cases dropping their given first name (or using
initials), and using a second (middle) name, sometimes a family name?

Stephen Goranson


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Mar 25 10:15:25 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:15:25 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <1080204770.40629de300011@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she didn't name the child
after anyone or anything.

Since reading of the name's popularity some time ago, I have
encountered many other Madisons, and their parents, and as far as I can
remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name from the air, that
they didn't borrow it from a television or movie character, an actress,
a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or anything specific.
"Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been washed ashore by
the zeigeist.

Grant


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 11:01:31 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:01:31 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
In-Reply-To: <000501c41226$4ed92f50$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Sam Clements wrote:

> Abby certainly isn't a "Good nough*" reporter, based on that story.

I think of her as "Abby Not Goodnough."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Mar 25 12:32:53 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:32:53 -0500
Subject: The dog ate my homework (1962)
Message-ID: 

I remember this from 5th grade (1953 or so).

American Dialect Society  writes:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      The dog ate my homework (1962)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> DOG ATE + HOMEWORK--13,600 Google hits, 6,090 Google Groups hits
>
>   There's just not enough Puppy Chow in this world.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>In a Class by Themselves
>By FLORENCE CROWTHER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
>Feb 18, 1962. p. BR10 (1 page) :
>   Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school;
>the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it;
>mother was sick; last night was Scout meeting; it rained.
>
>Excuse Me!; A History of Delightful Deceits And Other Unpardonable Talk
>Making One's Excuses
>By Michael Kernan. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
>D.C.: Jul 6, 1981. p. C1 (2 pages)
>
>The Dog Ate My Homework
>William McPherson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
>D.C.: Mar 27, 1984. p. A23 (1 page)
>
>
>(OCLC WORLDCAT)
>Aaugh! A dog ate my book report /
>Author: Schulz, Charles M.; Schulz, Charles M.
>Publication: [New York] : HarperCollins, 1998
>
>My dog ate it /
>Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
>Publication: New York : Holiday House, 1994
>
>The dog ate my homework /
>Author: Haynes, Betsy.
>Publication: New York : HarperPaperbacks, 1997
>
>The dog ate my homework :
>personal responsibility--how we avoid it and what to do about it /
>Author: Barry, Vincent E.
>Publication: Kansas City, Mo. : Andrews and McMeel, 199? (accidentally
>deleted--ed.)
>
>The dog ate my home work :
>poems /
>Author: Holbrook, Sara.
>Publication: Honesdale, Pa. : Boyds Mills Press, 1996
>
>The dog ate it :
>conquering homework hassles /
>Author: McEwan, Elaine K., 1941-
>Publication: Wheaton, Ill. : Harold Shaw Publishers, 1996
>
>My dog ate my homework! :
>a collection of funny poems /
>Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen,
>Publication: Minnetonka, MN : New York : Meadowbrook Press ; Distributed
>by Simon & Schuster, 2002, 1996
>
>The dog ate my homework social skills for today /
>Author: Slonecki, Catherine. Publication: Freeport, NY :; Educational
>Activities/Activity Records, 1995
>
>My dog ate it /
>Author: Benjamin, Saragail Katzman.
>Publication: New York : Scholastic Inc., 1994
>
>My dog ate my homework :
>and other lame excuses!
>Publication: Lansing, MI : Office of Highway Safety Planning, 2001
>
>The dog ate my homework
>Author: Caserta, Carmen Dana.; Eberl, Luke., and others Publication:
>Jacksonville, IL : New Dimension Media, Inc., 1999
>Document: English : Visual Material  : Videorecording : Elementary and
>junior high school  :  VHS tape
>
>My homework ate my dog :
>great cartoons from the Phi Delta Kappan, 1991-1996 /
>Author: Bucheri, Carol.; Way, Sheila.
>Publication: Bloomington, Ind. : Phi Delta Kappa International, 1996
>
>The dog ate my home work /
>Author: Holbrook, Sara.
>Publication: [Bay Village, Ohio] : S. Holbrook, 1993
>
>My dog ate my retirement plan :
>how to find an extra $1,000 a month when you retire /
>Author: Greenleaf, Geofrey, J.
>Publication: Cleveland, OH : Greenleaf, 2003
>
>My dog ate my homework! /
>Author: Lansky, Bruce.; Carpenter, Stephen.
>Publication: Minnetonka, Minn. : Poole : Meadowbrook ; Chris Lloyd, 2003,
>1996
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 14:23:04 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:23:04 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
In-Reply-To: <000501c41226$4ed92f50$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

At 12:02 AM -0500 3/25/04, Sam Clements wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: 
>Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
>
>[Fred Shapiro writes:]
>
>>  I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>>  intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>>  Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>>  stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>  > referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  ...
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>>  On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
>>  By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
>24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>>     The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
>librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations.
>The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type of logical fallacy
>that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel said.
>>     But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be traced not
>to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every Jury," a 1914 book
>by Gus C. Edwards.
>

In terms of the actual question (and the point on questions building
in presuppositions), of course it's largely a matter of definition as
to who came up with it first.  For the Megarians (3d century B.C.),
the sophism of choice was "Do you still beat your father? Answer yes
or no."  The scholastics preferred "Do you still beat your ass?" [the
donkey, not fundament].  And for us moderns, "Do you still beat your
wife?"  24 centuries of social progress...

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 14:27:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:07 EST
Subject: "All broth and no beans" & "Fine as cream gravy" (Two from Texas)
Message-ID: 

   Two more "food" Americanisms.  They both seem to be from Texas, where our 
digital resources are a bit weak right now.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ALL BROTH AND NO BEANS
  
ALL BROTH + NO BEANS--9 Google hits,  no Google Groups hit
  
  
(GOOGLE)
President Bush's 100% Foolproof National Security Strategy, As ...
... heel. He's as sharp as mashed potatoes and as full of wind as a 
corn-eating
horse. But mostly, he's all broth and no beans. And ... 
www.whitehouse.org/news/2002/092502.asp - 23k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Texas Monthly: Texas Sayings
... He thinks the sun comes up just to hear him crow. He's all broth and no 
beans. He
broke his arm patting himself on the back. More Sayings. Advertising 
Sections. ... 
www.texasmonthly.com/ranch/sayings/boastful.1.php - 20k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
MORE Texas Talkin...
... He thinks the sun comes up just to hear him crow. He's all broth
and no beans. He broke his arm patting himself on the back. To ... 
www.beer-bytch.com/texastalk2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Texas Sayings about being Boastful and Big
... He thinks the sun rises jest to hear him crow. He's all broth and no
beans. Hell, he'll break his arm to pat hisself on the back. Hes ... 
www.geocities.com/theladyrebel60/sayings.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
..84 nations........ - www.ezboard.com
... say. Its that he's all broth and no beans. He couldn't pour rain out
of a boot with a hole in the toe and directions on the heel. ... 
www.celloheaven.com/mbarchs/2001/june2/84nation.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar 
pages 

  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
No hits
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FINE AS CREAM GRAVY
  
FINE AS CREAM GRAVY--27 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit
FINE LIKE CREAM GRAVY--no Google hit, no Google Groups hit
  
   Not in the HDAS, which has "fine as wine."
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Lone Star Chicken Fried Steak with Cream Gravy Recipe on The ...
... milk. And incidentally, for a Texan to say that something is "fine
as cream gravy" is high praise indeed! Ingredients for 4 people. ... 
www.theworldwidegourmet.com/meat/ beef/texas-lonestar.htm - 8k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
     
Becker History 1890-1900
... Not many other men could hold a candle to you as far as I?m concerned. 
That
land you gave us is fine as cream gravy, and everyone I know agrees. ... 
www.becker.k12.mn.us/ourtown/1890's/narritive.html - 9k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
[PDF] Conference Brochure FINAL-web changes.indd
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting 
our text version of this document.
... clothes, rather than plain range-riding or work clothes Eureka ~ 
victorious discovery
Fandango ~ a very lively dance or party Fine as cream gravy ~ very good ... 
www.nhfa.org/education_PDFs/may04_convention-pg2.pdf - Similar pages 
  
Texas Monthly: Texas Sayings
... through the cloud. I'm cooking on a front burner today. She's got
a lot of stars in her crown. Fine as cream gravy. More Sayings. ... 
www.texasmonthly.com/ranch/sayings/happy.1.php - 21k - Cached - Similar pages 

  
Gift Wrapping
Click to enlarge We'll wrap yer gift "in apple pie order" usin' our purty 
gift
boxes, ol' west wrappin' paper and our "fine as cream gravy" Gold Mountain 
... 
www.goldmountainmining.com/giftwrapping.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Creation Corral
The precision of our artisans is as fine as cream gravy -- just watchin?
?em figure out how to go about a project is pure-d-pleasure. 
www.ranchhousetradingco.com/41.html - 2k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
MORE Texas Talkin...
... I felt any better, I'd drop my harp plumb through the cloud, I'm cooking 
on a front
burner today, She's got a lot of stars in her crown, I'm fine as cream gravy 
... 
www.beer-bytch.com/texastalk2.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Black & Decker TRO1000 Toaster Oven Review at Epinions.com
... Decker Electronic Toast-R-Oven Broiler TRO1000 (you really have to intone 
that, with
all the drama of a '40s radio announcer) ? is fine as cream gravy for my ... 
www.epinions.com/content_77887868548 - 60k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
OLD WEST SLANG AND PHRASES, A Writer's Guide
... Fetch me that hammer." / "He fetched him a punch in the nose.". Fight 
like Kilkenny
cats ~ fight like hell. Fine as cream gravy ~ very good, top notch. ... 
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~poindexterfamily/ OldWestSlang.html - 36k - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
Cowboy Words - [ Translate this page ]
... Fight like Kilkenny cats* ~ k?mpfen wie die H?lle. *Fine as cream gravy* 
~ sehr
gut, spitze. *Fish* ~ Cowboy-Regenmantel, nach einem Hersteller, dessen. ... 
mitglied.lycos.de/reling2/worte.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages 

Slang
... Fetch me that hammer." / "He fetched him a punch in the nose." Fight like 
Kilkenny
cats ~ fight like hell. Fine as cream gravy ~ very good, top notch. ... 
zoron.org/deadlands/slang.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages Hope Part 13
... Hey Vin - how?re you doing??. ?Fine as cream gravy...got
ourselves a card game going. You want in??. ?No thanks Vin. ... 
www.angelfire.com/journal/fourcorners/hope13.html - 17k - Supplemental Result 
- Cached - Similar pages 


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Mar 25 15:04:27 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <557324AE-7E45-11D8-ADFB-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

Zeitgist might be the best answer!

(The ranking of names in the following discussion is
based on the information at
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/.)

My wife and I struggled over the name of our first
daughter, born in 1975: my wife wanted "Stephanie"
because she held the actress Stephanie Powers in
especial esteem, I wanted something else - something
feminine, uncommon but not bizarre.  We went to see
"Love Bug" (or a sequel), in which S. Powers played a
character named Nicole; well, we both agreed Nicole
was perfect.  Turns out - Nicole was the 11th most
popular name for girls during the 70's; however, we
apparently caught it on the way up as it was number
186 in the 60's and went up to 8 for the 80's. (I
recall reading a news article a year or two after
Nicole's birth that placed Nicole in the top 10 for
1975, but the SSA list for 1975 doesn't concur.)  We
di name our next daughter Stephanie (1978), which
turned out to be number 9 for the 70's (up from 45 for
the 60's and went up to 6 in the 80's).  We finally
got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
and up to number 10 in the 90's.  We didn't
consciously perceive any of these names as popular at
the time we chose them, and we were truly trying to
avoid the most common or popular names.



--- Grant Barrett  wrote:
> My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she
> didn't name the child
> after anyone or anything.
>
> Since reading of the name's popularity some time
> ago, I have
> encountered many other Madisons, and their parents,
> and as far as I can
> remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name
> from the air, that
> they didn't borrow it from a television or movie
> character, an actress,
> a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or
> anything specific.
> "Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been
> washed ashore by
> the zeigeist.
>
> Grant

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Mar 25 15:23:13 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:23:13 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <0309C746.59F899EF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 PM 3/24/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:
>
> > Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
> > he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.
>
>I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
>told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
>conflated the two people.
>
>Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
>something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
>all their reporting is riddled with errors.


Now that I am no longer the research assistant (Elizabeth Phillips will be
back starting Tuesday), I have a little more perspective on this issue. I
now have an anal retentive A-Type personality fact-checker AND a copy
editor calling me on Safire's column every week. The last one argued with
me until she was blue in the face that the root of yotta had to be Latin
based on AHD4, and M-W's "perhaps alteration of Italian otto eight" was
just plain wrong  "cause Italian, as you know, comes from the Latin and
therefore....." And I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
Greek for eight and she might as well just go all the way back and says
it's all Greek like Random House does. I swear she was pounding her foot on
the floor screaming "Latin, Latin Latin." It went is as Latin and there was
nothing I could do about it.

They've got time to do that since the magazine is on a 16 day lead time.
The regular news is basically just edited for syntax and grammar, so you
basically just have to trust the reporter.

On an aside - a new clerk came in the other day. She's writing her
dissertation. At the coffee machines we came to a startling conclusion.
Every single one of the people who are supporting the paper and making very
little money doing so- research assistants, clerks, file clerks,
secretaries etc. has an advanced degree. Not a single one of us with less
than a masters. Can't say the same for those who are writing it, unfortunately.

Wonder what that fact-checker has her MA in?

Kathleen E. Miller
In limbo at the Times


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 15:36:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:36:43 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040325100314.00b12640@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:23 AM -0500 3/25/04, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>The last one argued with
>me until she was blue in the face that the root of yotta had to be Latin
>based on AHD4, and M-W's "perhaps alteration of Italian otto eight" was
>just plain wrong  "cause Italian, as you know, comes from the Latin and
>therefore....." And I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
>Greek for eight and she might as well just go all the way back and says
>it's all Greek like Random House does.

Not to quibble, but...

Is there any evidence that Lat. _octo_ derives from Gk. _okto_, as
opposed to reflecting a parallel development from the Indo-European?
They're cognates with each other, of course, and with Proto-Germanic
root of _eight_, but neither is a borrowing from the other as far as
I know.

Larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:12:22 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:12:22 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
Message-ID: 

        In a half-hearted defense of reporters, let me just say that getting the facts straight is much, much harder than it sounds.  I think there is a tendency to read news reports and assume their accuracy; not, perhaps, on big, politically charged issues, but on more routine accounts.  If you have spent some time with reporters, you realize the extent to which they are just flailing, and that every news report should be taken with a grain of salt.

        Specifically with regard to the prefix yotta- (meaning multiplied by 10 followed by 24 zeroes [10^24], just as kilo- means multiplied by 10^3):  I wouldn't think it would be too questionable, since we know where it came from.  It was adopted by the 19th Conf?rence G?n?rale des Poids et Mesures in 1991 as part of the International System of Units maintained by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).  According to a BIPM publication, at http://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/si-brochure.pdf, "The names yocto and yotta are derived from octo, suggesting the number eight (the eighth power of 10^3); the letter "y" is added to avoid the use of the letter "o" as a symbol because it may be confused with the number zero."  Yocto- is the counterpart prefix for small units, 10^-24.  While the BIPM did not comment on why it thought that octo suggests the number eight, its explanation seems to make an Italian derivation less likely.

John Baker


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:28:36 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:28:36 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:36 AM 3/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>Quibbles are fine. My degree's in History, so I only know what the 
>dictionaries tell me. And in this instance the word wasn't in the OED and 
>AHD4, RH and M-W all had something different. Random House said it was 
>from Greek iota. M-W said it was "perhaps alteration of Italian otto 
>eight" and AHD4 said it was an
>Alteration of octo? " which lead to looking up octo which has "Greek 
>okta-, okt- Latin octo-" and "Greek okta-, okt-, okt- (from okt) & Latin 
>octo-, oct-, from octo ." So is it safe to say they're "related by 
>derivation, borrowing, or descent."


Kathleen E. Miller


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 25 16:50:39 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:50:39 -0800
Subject: In defense of journalists
Message-ID: 

Fred's comments are a little unfair. True, many journalists are
sloppy or ill informed, but in my experience the majority are smart
professionals who make an honest effort to get their facts straight.
It isn't easy to do justice to an unfamiliar subject when you're
working under deadline -- not many linguists would be able to knock
out 800 words on recent developments in string theory for tomorrow's
early edition. And you could point to some very good coverage of
language issues in the NY Times in particular, for example in
articles by Michael Erard, Margolit Fox, and Nicholas Wade. If these
seem like the exception in the general press, it's partly because
editors tend not to regard language as a reportorial specialty the
way they do other kinds of science writing, and so often assign
language stories to feature writers who come to the subject armed
with no more than the sense they were born with (or more accurately,
the sense they acquired in seventh grade at the business end of
Sister Petra's ruler.)


Geoff Nunberg

>    OT, FOR THE RECORD:  I have never laid a hand on my wife Jennifer Lopez.
>    From the ADS-L ARCHIVES:
>
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:
>
>>  Barry is a judge, so he doesn't meet j-school students as we do: clearly
>>  he is overestimating both the intelligence and the training of reporters.
>
>I don't think anyone who has dealt with reporters overestimates their
>intelligence, training, or accuracy.  A couple of weeks ago the New York
>Times printed an article about the origins of the expression "When did you
>stop beating your wife?"  They interviewed me for the article, but
>referred to me throughout the piece as "Fred Siegel."  The reporter later
>told me that she knew someone named Fred Siegel, and her mind just
>conflated the two people.
>
>Given the many inaccuracies one sees in the Times when they write about
>something of which one has personal knowledge, one can only assume that
>all their reporting is riddled with errors.
>
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
>
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>The Ringmaster of Old.
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27, 1901. p.
>SM18 (1 page) :
>(Same article as in APS ONLINE in 1902.  Both are from THE CORNHILL--ed.)
>
>
>(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
>THE CIRCUS.; THE LAMENT OF A PURE MIND.
>E V Lucas. Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature (1901-1907). New
>York: Jan 1902. Vol. 138, Iss. 1; p. 92 (6 pages)
>Pg. 93:  The first question was anything; the second question was
>anything; but the third, propounded by the clown after long
>self-communing, was steeped in guile: "Do you _still_ beat your
>wife?"  There is no way out of that; affirmative and negative alike
>are powerless to rob the "still" of its sting; and off goes the
>clown with his bottle of wine, crack goes the whip, round ambles the
>old white horse with a back like Table Mountain, and the Signortna
>resumes her pretty capers.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(Wall Street Journal)
>MR. BRYAN'S TRICK QUESTIONS.
>Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 20,
>1911. p. 1 (1 page) :
>    Perhaps Mr. Bryan would like to answer one or two questions
>framed after the "Do you still beat your wife?" model, bearing upon
>his own financial past?
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(New York Times)
>On Council's Budget List: More Funds to Sue Mayor; City Hall Notes
>By ABBY GOODNOUGH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York,
>N.Y.: Apr 24, 1999. p. B2 (1 page) :
>    The Mayor was partly right, said Fred Siegel, a Yale University
>librarian and editor of the Oxford Dictionary of American Legal
>Quotations.  The Police Commissioner was indeed referring to a type
>of logical fallacy that was "written about by Aristotle," Mr. Siegel
>said.
>    But he added that the actual wife-beating question could be
>traced not to ancient Greece, but to "Legal Laughs: A Joke for Every
>Jury," a 1914 book by Gus C. Edwards.
>    In the book, Mr. Siegel said, the joke goes as follows: A
>browbeating lawyer was demanding that a witness answer a certain
>question either in the negative of affirmative.
>    "I cannot do it," the witness said.  "There are some questions
>that cannot be answered by a 'yes' or a 'no,' as anyone knows."
>    "I defy you to give an example to the court," thundered the
>lawyer.  The retort came like a flash: "Are you still beating your
>wife?"
>    A sickly grin spread over the lawyer's face and he sat down.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:53:31 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:53:31 EST
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular
Message-ID: 

In a message dated   Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:57:30 -0600,  Gerald Cohen
 quoted:
>
>  At 9:36 AM -0500 3/24/04, Bill Hendrick wrote:
>  >Hello.
>  >any idea why Madison has become so popular for girls? It's No. 2
>  >now, but was no. 133 in 1991. Kaitlyn also has gone from 85th to
>  >32nd in popularity. and Grace has gone from 128 to 15. why do these
>  >names move up? I don't remember any of these from movies or TV
>  >shows. what's happening?

I diagnose three long-term trends in naming of baby girls in the US.

1.  Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Scottish) names are more fashionable than they used
to be.  The first time I remember hearing the name "Kaitlyn" was in the Paul
Newman move "The Verdict" (1982) and I failed to recognize it as a Celtic
name.  Nowadays it seems perfectly normal.  Similarly Megan has come out of
nowhere to be popular.

2.   In the last generation or so a number of what used to be exclusively
boy's names or nicknames have become common girl's names, e.g. Lee, Jamie, Kelly,
Kim, Taylor.  It seems to me (but I cannot prove this) that this trend caught
steam a little after the rise of feminism.  Cuase and effect?  Parents were
saying "equal opportunity for girls means allowing them a crack at boys' names"?

     What distinguishes names in this category from other boys' names?  That
these names were somewhat androgynous to begin with, unlike names such as
Joseph, Henry, Julius, or Thomas, which are nailed down as masculine names by
appearing, repectively, in the Bible, as Kings of England, in Classical tradition,
or in the Saints' Calendar.

3.  At one time a number of surnames became first names.  Think of Robinson
Crusoe, for an early example.  Others include Jefferson Davis, Douglas
MacArthur, and Bruce Willis.  (Note: in some cases these "first" names are actually
middle names used by people who dislike their first names, e.g. John Calvin
Coolidge.)

Nowadays there is a minor trend for English and Celtic surnames to become
girl's first names, e.g. the Hollywood actresses Glenn Close, Brooke Shields,
MacKenzie Phillips, and Morgan Fairchild.  (caveat on the last example:  "Morgan"
is well-established as a girl's name from the Arthurian legends---Arthur's
sister was Morgan le Fay.)

Some names fit two of these trends, some (e.g. "Kelly") all three.

What about "Madison"?
1.  It sounds Irish (I don't know if it is)
2.  It is reasonably androgynous, never having been firmly established as a
male-only name.
3.  It is a British-sounding surname.

Hence "Madison" was waiting around to become a fashionable girl's name.  "The
Bridges of Madison County" or whatever was the precipitating event, but the
underlying reason was the trends cited above.

End of diagnosis.

This does not explain the popularity of "Grace", which is neither
Celtic-sounding, androgynous, nor a common surname.  I doubt that people thinking Celtic
names happened to think of "Amazing Grace", which is a very popular song in
Scotland.

         - Jim Landau (unfashionably East European)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 16:56:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:56:13 -0500
Subject: OT: Errors in Reporting
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040325111616.02d11c30@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

>>Quibbles are fine. My degree's in History, so I only know what the
>>dictionaries tell me. And in this instance the word wasn't in the
>>OED and AHD4, RH and M-W all had something different. Random House
>>said it was from Greek iota. M-W said it was "perhaps alteration of
>>Italian otto eight" and AHD4 said it was an
>>Alteration of octo? " which lead to looking up octo which has
>>"Greek okta-, okt- Latin octo-" and "Greek okta-, okt-, okt- (from
>>okt) & Latin octo-, oct-, from octo ." So is it safe to say they're
>>"related by derivation, borrowing, or descent."

Sorry; the scope of my quibbling was restricted to the very minor
aside within your response to your colleague that contained the
assertion that "I pointed out that the Latin for eight comes from the
Greek for eight"; I was pointing out that (as far as I can tell) it
doesn't, and that Lat. _octo_ and Greek _okto_ are sisters, rather
than the former being the daughter of the latter.  I wasn't saying
anything at all about _yotta_, with which I remain agnostic.  I know,
this is probably striking others on the list as just a lotta "yotta
yotta yotta".

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 18:25:10 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:25:10 -0500
Subject: In defense of journalists
In-Reply-To: <200403251650.i2PGokbF008212@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> Fred's comments are a little unfair. True, many journalists are
> sloppy or ill informed, but in my experience the majority are smart
> professionals who make an honest effort to get their facts straight.
> It isn't easy to do justice to an unfamiliar subject when you're
> working under deadline -- not many linguists would be able to knock
> out 800 words on recent developments in string theory for tomorrow's
> early edition. And you could point to some very good coverage of
> language issues in the NY Times in particular, for example in
> articles by Michael Erard, Margolit Fox, and Nicholas Wade. If these

Much of my experience with journalists is with major national newspapers,
particularly the New York Times, but I have also dealt with smaller
papers.  I find that the biggest problems are with the major national
newspapers, particularly the New York Times.  I have dealt with some
really smart, insightful journalists at the Times, but also with some who
were very difficult.  I think the reason why major national newspapers,
particularly the Times, can be difficult to deal with is that they are
much more arrogant than journalists at smaller papers, much more likely to
think they know more than the subject of the article does.  As for the
Times having all kinds of fact checkers and copy editors, this may
actually foster errors because the fact checkers and copy editors are
misguidedly convinced they know best.  Even William Safire, the paper's
language maven, has to have his linguistic assertions edited by others who
may know a lot less than him about the point in question.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Thu Mar 25 16:28:14 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:28:14 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
 writes:

>We finally
> got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
> daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
> the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
> and up to number 10 in the 90's.

We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
Megan. I have no idea where it came from.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From SalLmns at AOL.COM  Thu Mar 25 19:12:19 2004
From: SalLmns at AOL.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:12:19 EST
Subject: In defense of journalists
Message-ID: 

Although I haven't written in a very long time, this subject is close to my
heart. I am a graduate of Columbia's J-School. I know the rigors of both
graduate school and television news. When working for a book publisher, I also had
the experience of dealing with a local reporter who was very eager to make her
mark by creating a sensational aspect to a story from her own imagination.
>From my perspective, all you can hope for is getting the facts straight. That
isn't always easy and it can be an evolving process. The pressure to be seen as a
singular talent propels people in directions they should not go and is often
a mark of the inexperienced. Perhaps arrogance has different hues or, in the
case of the NYT, different bow ties. I'll follow this thread with some interest.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Mar 25 19:38:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:38:42 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <20040325.142414.-197653.0.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
> writes:
>
>>We finally
>>  got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
>>  daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
>>  the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
>>  and up to number 10 in the 90's.
>
>We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
>had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
>We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
>influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
>unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
>Megan. I have no idea where it came from.
>
Well, our daughter was born in 1984 and we spent a lot of time
leafing through a number of those what-shall-we-name-the-baby books
in search of the right M- name.  We settled on Meryl, partly because
it was so uncommon. (Two years earlier, we'd named our son David,
thereby instantiating the typical pattern of choosing more frequently
chosen names for sons than daughters.)  The only Meryl we knew of at
the time was Streep, but we didn't choose the name in her honor.
Since then, the name (for better or worse) has remained quite
uncommon and appears on none of those Social Security lists (nor has
it been duplicated on any class lists).  One price for this
uniqueness has been her having to respond to a lot more "how do you
spell that" questions than David has.

Larry Horn


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Mar 25 20:00:01 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:00:01 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <557324AE-7E45-11D8-ADFB-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mar 25, 2004, at 2:15 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> My niece is named Madison. My sister claims she didn't name the child
> after anyone or anything.
>
> Since reading of the name's popularity some time ago, I have
> encountered many other Madisons, and their parents, and as far as I can
> remember, all seem to believe they plucked the name from the air, that
> they didn't borrow it from a television or movie character, an actress,
> a favorite book, a friend, or from anyone or anything specific.
> "Madison," for whatever reason, appears to have been washed ashore by
> the zei[t]geist.

the current authority on this topic is the fascinating:

Lieberson, Stanley. 2000. A matter of taste: How names, fashions, and
culture change. New Haven CT: Yale Univ. Press.

[deliciously, lieberson is the Abbott Lawrence Lowell Professor of
Sociology at Harvard.]

lieberson points out that though there are social explanations for some
name fashions, there is a general "ratchet effect" in which names that
happen to get chosen build in popularity year by year (and then crash,
because they've become "too popular"), and other internal effects,
including favored phonology.

but there's a lot that doesn't have a deep explanation.

arnold, who has a three-week-old granddaughter named
   opal eleanor armstrong zwicky


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Mar 25 20:07:52 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:07:52 -0500
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

"Megan" is also variously spelled, I've noticed, sometimes with an 'h' (as
Meghan) and sometimes not.  I don't know if there's a correlation with the
tendency to lax the front vowel or not, but I always have to ask my
students, "Do you say [meg at n] or [mEg at n]?"  And then I have to explain why
I asked the question, which leads into phonetics and a nice lesson on IPA.

At 02:38 PM 3/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:28 AM -0500 3/25/04, Duane Campbell wrote:
>>On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:04:27 -0800 James Smith
>> writes:
>>
>>>We finally
>>>  got down to number 14 (for the 80's) with our third
>>>  daughter, Megan, in 1981, but also caught that name on
>>>  the way up, from 417 in the 60's to  84 in the 70's
>>>  and up to number 10 in the 90's.
>>
>>We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a novel I
>>had read several years before which took place in 19th century Ireland.
>>We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop culture
>>influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning what an
>>unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were named
>>Megan. I have no idea where it came from.
>Well, our daughter was born in 1984 and we spent a lot of time
>leafing through a number of those what-shall-we-name-the-baby books
>in search of the right M- name.  We settled on Meryl, partly because
>it was so uncommon. (Two years earlier, we'd named our son David,
>thereby instantiating the typical pattern of choosing more frequently
>chosen names for sons than daughters.)  The only Meryl we knew of at
>the time was Streep, but we didn't choose the name in her honor.
>Since then, the name (for better or worse) has remained quite
>uncommon and appears on none of those Social Security lists (nor has
>it been duplicated on any class lists).  One price for this
>uniqueness has been her having to respond to a lot more "how do you
>spell that" questions than David has.
>
>Larry Horn


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Mar 26 00:27:22 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:27:22 -0800
Subject: In defense of journalists
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My conclusion after watching tales of "Windy City" and other tales promulgated
by newspapers is that journalism is not designed to report facts.

Journalism reports on events, not facts. Journalists almost never conduct
research themselves, they simply ask "experts" to tell them what the facts
are--when was the last time you saw a newspaper article that did not contain at
least one quote? Journalists are good at determining what went on in a White
House policy meeting or happened at a crime scene, for example, because witness
testimony is the only source of information for such events. But for
information on empirically derived facts, they are only as good as their
source. For every Jesse Sheidlower or Fred Shapiro, there are a dozen yahoos
who don't know what they are talking about. Arguments from authority are
recognized as one of the fallacies of logic and debate, yet that is all that
newspapers ever do.

Add to this that almost no newspaper ever issues a correction for errors of
fact. They only correct misquotations and misidentifications. So, Fred Shapiro
can expect the Times will issue a correction if he complains, but Barry Popik
can yell until he is blue in the face and the paper will never correct a story
about "Windy City."

Because of the above, newspapers and journalists are appallingly bad sources of
information. They are rife with errors. In the case of reporting on events,
newspapers are usually the best we've got. But for general knowledge, they are
abyssmally bad.

As to the misidentification of Fred Shapiro in the Times, this is inexcusable.
But I reserve judgement on the reporter until I know the track record. Everyone
makes the occasional appallingly bad error. It is the frequency that is
important.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 02:35:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:35:53 -0500
Subject: "Texas Butter" & "Narrow at the Equator;" SALLIE LEMONS!
Message-ID: 

OT:  SALLIE LEMONS!

Although I haven't written in a very long time, this subject is close to my
heart.
--Sallie Lemons on ADS-L, 25 March 2004

   Welcome back!  Sallie Lemons!
   You've missed a lot.  The biggest thing has to be my marriage to Jennifer Lopez on the David Letterman show, right at "Big Apple Corner."  I invited everybody here.  Letterman really impressed the DARE people with his Indiana dialect; he's even decided to donate money to the DARE project.  I wish Sheidlower would quit calling us "Barrifer," though.
   The Chicago Historical Society finally admitted that "Windy City" doesn't come from the 1893 World's Fair.  That was bound to happen sooner or later.
   I quit doing parking tickets ten hours a day, five days a week in the room with no air and the Bronx building with no fire exits.  Did you see my food dictionary on the web?

---------------------------------------------------------------
TEXAS BUTTER & NARROW AT THE EQUATOR

TALK LIKE A COWBOY:
A DICTIONARY OF REAL WESTERN LINGO FOR YOUNG COWBOYS AND COWGIRLS
by Elizabeth Feagles
San Antonio, Texas: The Naylor Company
1955

   David Shulman was going through this small book.  It has a chapter on food.

Pg. 34:  CHUCK WAGON
Pg. 37:  ...a LARRUPIN' (mighty good) meal.
Pg. 37:  SOURDOUGH:  Cowboy's bread.
Pg. 38:  SOWBELLY:  Salt pork.
Pg. 39:  FRIJOLES:  Mexican dried beans.
Pg. 39:  JERKY:  Dried beef.
Pg. 40:  TEXAS BUTTER:  Gravy.  A cowboy can't CHAMBER A MEAL (eat) without gravy to dip his biscuit or his chunk of bread into.  Traditional cowboy gravy us made like this: the cook fries the dinner meat, takes it out of the skillet, then throws a handful of flour into the sizzling meat drippings.  After the flour has browned and the meat particles have been scraped up from the sides, he adds water, stirs again--and there it is, Texas butter.
   SINKERS:  Biscuits.
   WITH A BRIGHT EYE:  Fried egg, right side up.
   HUCKYDUMMY:  Raisin bread.
Pg. 41:  LICK:  Molasses.
Pg. 41:  HEN-FRUIT STIR:
   SPLATTER DABS:  These are both fun-names for pancakes.
Pg. 41:  SEA-PLUM:  Oysters.
Pg. 41:  FLUFF-DUFFS:  Fancy food not found on a chuck wagon.  Fluff-duffs include all manner of "lady-cooking" as well as unavailable luxuries.  It might mean the 3-layer cake (Pg. 42--ed.) some girl friend bakes for you or the homemade agarita (wild currant) jelly that the ranch owner's wife put up.  Also called THROAT-TICKLING GRUB.
   CHUCK:
   GRUB:
   MUCK-A-MUCK:
   BAIT:  Different words for plain, ordinary food.
   BREAD SACK:  Stomach.  What the cowboy wants to fill.
   STAKED TO A FILL:  When a cowboy has eaten well, he figures he has been staked to a fill.
   HOLD THE CUT:  Wait.  This is a very unhappy thing when it is applied to eating.  For when a cowboy has to hold the cut at the FEED TROUGH (dinner table), he's PLUMB RILED (angry).
   NARROW AT THE EQUATOR:  Hungry.
   SPANISH SUPPER:  Tighten your belt and eat nothing.  Sometimes a (Pg. 43--ed.) cowboy gets so far out on the range he can't make it into the ranch for supper; or perhaps he's taken grub with him and it has played out.  Then he just tightens his belt another notch and keeps on riding.  This is about as bad a thing as can happen to a hard-riding, tired and hungry man.
   GRUB PILE!:
   COME AND GET IT!:  These are the cook's calls to food, particularly when the outfit is on the home ranch, and he's yelling to the sleeping men.
   FLY AT IT!:  This is what the cook tells the boys when they're all gathered around and the food is ready to eat.


   I checked a few of these through Newspaperarchive.com and Google.  There aren't many cowboys left out there.


   FLUFF DUFFS

FLUFF DUFFS--7 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
FLUFF DUFF--15 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

Atchison Daily Globe - 2/21/1945
...thief's special, icut straw and molasses, FLUFF -DUFFS land so on and so on.. ,j from..
Atchison, Kansas   Wednesday, February 21, 1945  784 k


   HUCKYDUMMY

HUCKYDUMMY--1 Google hit, 0 Google Groups hits


   TEXAS BUTTER

TEXAS BUTTER--96 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits

Atchison Daily Globe - 2/21/1945
...Mr. Adams makes some reference to "TEXAS BUTTER." And just what is TEXAS BUTTER? If is.....of "Charlie Taylor." It's also an oldtime -TEXAS cowboy food. But I know what it is. It.....s a Brairie substitute for BUTTER. A mix-K there s also 'Have een Third..
Atchison, Kansas   Wednesday, February 21, 1945  784 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 7/2/1955
...may be "black or "long sweetnin'." "TEXAS BUTTER" or "immigrant BUTTER" doesn't consist.....of BUTTER in the least. Instead its made from

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 7/2/1955
...may be "black or "long sweetnin'." "TEXAS BUTTER" or "immigrant BUTTER" doesn't consist.....of BUTTER in the least Instead Its made from..
Great Bend, Kansas   Saturday, July 02, 1955  668 k


   NARROW AT THE EQUATOR

   This seems to be gay slang, not cowboy slang.

NARROW AT THE EQUATOR--76 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

(GOOGLE)
Corpus Christi Coastal Bend South Texas news, information, events ...
... A cowboy in high spirits had his tail over the dashboard. A hungry cowboy
was narrow at the equator. A tough customer was known as a curly wolf. ...
www.caller.com/ccct/opinion_columnists/article/ 0,1641,CCCT_843_2230308,00.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Wizard's GAY SLANG DICTIONARY N
... [Submitted from,Wei Lee, Dictionary of Gay Slang]. narrow at the equator:
having a small "package" [Submitted from,Wei Lee, Dictionary of Gay Slang]. ...
www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19n.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

February Literature Connections
... Expressions: grub pile. bread sack. narrow at the equator. splatter dabs. sinkers.
Texas butter. side winder. frog sticker. wipes. hoosegow. leaving Cheyenne. Meanings: ...
teacher.scholastic.com/lessonrepro/ lessonplans/litcofeb.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Matt & Andrej Koymasky - Gay Slang - N
... NAMES PROJECT, NANCE, NANCY (BOY), NANTEY or NANTI. NAPKIN RING, NARC or NARK,
NARROW AT THE EQUATOR, NATURAL BREECH. NATURE'S SCYTHE, NAVAL COMBER, NAVY STYLE,
ND. ...
andrejkoymasky.com/lou/dic/n.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

gay massage - gaydays orlando - Need funny nude pictures or real ...
gay massage - Get knob polisher and narrow at the equator with no
cost, and additional massive cock sex with meg. Searching for ...
www.camcum.com/gay_massage_63.htm - 6k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


   SPANISH SUPPER

   I couldn't find anything with this definition.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 04:14:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:14:37 -0500
Subject: "English" in billiards (New York Clipper)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 3/23/2004 3:00:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:

> Folks:
>
> I have received the following question from a writer for ESPN Magazine:
>
> --For this article, "The Answer Guy," I'm trying to answer a question.   Sounds simple, but it never is. The question for this issue is: "Why is spin called 'english'?" You know, if you put a spin on a cueball and someone says, "That had a lot of english on it." Or tennis ball, or bowling ball, or even baseball. On down the line.
> --I am looking for an answer, a suggestion, anecdotes, jokes, anything.
>
> The best that the OED can do is 1869, from Mark Twain, and the entry doesn't include a definition.  The Dictionary of American English had also cited the Twain, and another passage (from the late 1880s as I recall) that included a definition; this defining quotation is omitted by OED.   HDAS doesn't give this sense at all.  And I don't see any other sense of the word "English" in OED that could be used to explain the
> billiards sense.

   The 1869 Mark Twian citation is on WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION.  There's nothing earlier in that database (that goes to 1851).  I didn't see anything on the AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE, or MAKING OF AMERICA.
   I took out several billiards books in the New York Public Library, but didn't see "English" anywhere.
   So I went to NYU and tried looking through the NEW YORK CLIPPER.  The CLIPPER, unlike the SPORTING NEWS, has _not_ been digitized.  Don't know why; it was the VARIETY plus SPORTING NEWS for the 19th century.  The CLIPPER had a billiard column in each issue.
   This slangy poem has no "English" in it:

   27 July 1867, NEW YORK CLIPPER, pg. 121, col. 1:
      BILLIARDS.
WRITTEN FOR THE NEW YORK CLIPPER.
Billiards is gamest of all games,
   And, 'tis a funny thing,
We say to friends, with truth, we count,
   And get them "on a string."
And what we think is queerer yet,
   We do upon our honor,
We never leave the table, still
   We get "around the corner."

'Tis never dry, the darling game!
   Who says so is a fool;
For should it signs of that but show
   Then wet it, make it "pool."
To say it's dull is nonsense pure,
   Why it our wits anoints,
For every time we play the game
   We're sure to make good "points."

Another thing the oddest is
   You'll find beneath the sun,
Tho' you stand still and play your game
   You're sure to "make a run."
And odder still; though 'tis a game
   That's played in large amount,
It is the only game of all
   On which there's much "discount."

It makes us of perception quick,
   A thing possessed by few;
For, as you know, the billiardist
   Does always "take a cue."
And billiards is a loving game--
   The balls themselves show this,
By giving right before your eyes
   Each other, oft, "a kiss."

May it glide 'long for years, 'gainst its
   Course be raised not a ridge;
But should there be, may it then go
   Over it on its "bridge."
May friends of it live long, and may
   Their lifetime not be marred,
And when death tries to shove them off,
   Oh may that "shove be barred!"


   I don't know what this "saving of English" means, but it's the best I've got through the end of 1867.

   5 October 1867, NEW YORK CLIPPER, pg. 20, col. 3:
   ...Dion received from Nelms a note, which, without vouchsafing a solitary explanation, conveyed the unpleasant intelligence that he would not be in Montreal on the 24th, nor, worst of all, on the 25th either.  This note which, as we learn, Dion has, in commemoration of the foolscap episode of his schoolboy days, seen fit to frame and hang up in his billiard room, contained the following rare "saving of English:"--"Joseph Dion--_Dear Sir:_ I cannot play the match.  Respectfully, E. H. Nelms."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Mar 26 08:02:46 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:02:46 EST
Subject: History lived forward,
 written backward; Two chances: slim and none
Message-ID: 

HISTORY IS LIVED FORWARD AND WRITTEN BACKWARD
  
HISTORY + LIVED FORWARD + BACKWARDS--250 Google hits, 231 Google Groups hits
HISTORY + LIVE FORWARD + BACKWARD--365 Google hits, 22 Google Groups hits
    
   "Mr. Chairman, we all know that history is lived forward and written 
backward" said Madeleine Albright at the 9-11 Commission Hearings on Tuesday.
   THE DAILY SHOW's Jon Stewart thought about this last night.  "I think 
that's Hebrew!" he said.
   The phrase is sometimes "written backward(s)" or "read backward(s)" or 
"understood backward(s)" or "examined backward(s)."  Sometimes "forward" is first 
and other times "backward(s)" is first.
   Sometimes it's credited to Dame C. Veronica Wedgwood and somes it's 
credited to Soren Kierkegaard.
    Fred Shapiro will surely sort this out.  
  
   
(WWW.QUESTIA.COM)
The Two Koreas: A Contemporary History  
Book by Don Oberdorfer; Addison-Wesley, 1997    
Subjects:   Korea (South)--History--1960-1988, Korea (South)--History--1988-, 
Korea (North)--History  
...in my earlier works, I was inspired by a quotation from Dame C. Veronica 
Wedgwood, a British historian -- "History is written backward but lived 
forward. Those who know the end of the story can never know what it was like at the 
time." What follows...    
    
Divine Violence: Spectacle, Psychosexuality & Radical Christianity in the 
Argentine "Dirty War"   
Book by Frank Graziano; Westview Press, 1992    
Subjects:   State-Sponsored Terrorism--Argentina--History--20th Century, 
Violence--Argentina--History--20th Century, Torture--Argentina--History--20th 
Century, Social Psychology--Argentina, Argentina--Politics And 
Government--1955-1983   
...Chapters 2 through 5) that manifests and constitutes it as "a language in 
the process of formation." 7 1. History is lived forward but read backward . 
What the actors in any given historical sequence live as an "open work" 
characterized by... 
      
  
(WWW.GOOGLE.COM)
Don Oberdorfer on The Paula Gordon Show
... Oberdorfer bows to renowned British historian Dame Veronica Wedgewood
who said, ?History is written backward but lived forward. ... 
www.paulagordon.com/shows/oberdorfer/ - 16k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
Pioneer Press | 03/25/2004 | 9/11 COMMISSION: Panel provides ...
... Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said it best in her 
testimony before
the 9/11 commission Tuesday: History is lived forward and written backward. 
... 
www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/ news/editorial/8267287.htm - 38k - Mar 
25, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
  
As Various As Their Land: The Everyday Lives of Eighteenth-Century ...
... Using the Revolutionary War as an example, the author points out that: 
"...while
history is written backward, it is lived forward, and for the people who ... 
www.literaturehistoryhub.com/ 
As_Various_As_Their_Land_The_Everyday_Lives_of_EighteenthCentury_Americans_1... - 19k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
freedomforum.org: Opening address: 'History denied: restricting ...
... assassinated. Nixon didn?t know he would have to resign. It has always
been said that history is lived forward and written backward. I ... 
www.freedomfor  
  
Statement of Richard Reeves on Presidential Records
... assassinated. Nixon didn't know he would have to resign. It has always
been said that history is lived forward and written backward. With ... 
www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/041102reeves.html - 20k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
CNN.com - Transcripts
... this. Stay with us. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALBRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, we all
know that history is lived forward and written backward. What ... 
edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0403/23/i_ins.01.html - 43k - Mar 25, 2004 - 
Cached - Similar pages 
  
canadiancomment
... .. Mr Chairman, we all know that history is lived forward and written 
backward.
Much seems obvious now that was less clear prior to 11 September. ... 
canadiancomment.no-ip.com/ - 91k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 

  
(GOOGLE)
algfront
... FIDUCIARIES, MEASURES, OPTIMIZATION, TOPOLOGY, HISTORY, LIFE, & ... Life 
can only be
understood backwards, but must be lived forward ," S?ren Kierkegaard. ... 
Description: A personal view of algebra and its relationship to economics.
Category: Science > Math > Algebra > High School
members.fortunecity.com/jonhays/algfront.htm - 9k - Mar 25, 2004 - Cached - 
Similar pages 

Looking Backwards: Rosemary Passantino's paper
Looking backwards: Human memories in hypertexts. ... Graham sees the angel of 
history
propelled into the ... Kiekegaard agreed - "life is lived forward, but 
understood ... 
www.wordcircuits.com/htww/passantino.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
Athabasca University offers a variety of undergraduate History ...
... perhaps, you should consider taking history because the ... Kierkegaard, 
if life must
be lived forward, it can only be comprehended backwards, retrospectively. ... 



From:    Duane Campbell 

: We named our daughter, born in 1972, Megan. The name came from a
: novel I had read several years before which took place in 19th century
: Ireland. We had never known anyone named Megan and there was no pop
: culture influence. I clearly remember a nurse at the hospital mentioning
: what an unusual name it was. Of course, several of her classmates were
: named Megan. I have no idea where it came from.

Of course, as those who study fashions and fads have found, this is
*exactly* the way fashions and fads work--people don't notice any
precipitating event (events, more likely), and think an idea is original to
them, but it's actually part of a larger fashion trend that's occurring.

Consider, for example, the "have a day" fad of the mid- to late-80s
(parodying the "have a nice day" smiling face, this one had a straight-line
mouth). Lots of my friends were convinced that *I* had invented that, and I
don't recall seeing it anywhere before I started decorating everything I
owned with it, but given the widespread commercial availability of the
design pretty quickly thereafter (I got given a keychain with it as part of
a birthday present--sadly, for a teenager, not including keys to a car--at
one point).

That fad presumably started somewhere, but it seems to have spread "under
the radar" in some way until it burst out into the open. Consider clothing
fashions, grooming trends, and even linguistic fads--postposed "NOT!", for
example, had apparently existed under people's active perception for at
least decades before Wayne's World brought it out for everyone to see.

Naming trends seem to follow the same pattern.

(Though if my younger daughter has multiple classmates named Hriana, I'll
buy a hat so that I can eat it.)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Fri Mar 26 15:05:25 2004
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:05:25 -0600
Subject: FW: 17.737 new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
Message-ID: 

Not exactly American dialect, but likely useful nonetheless. --ccr

         Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:43:10 +0000
         From: Willard McCarty 
         Subject: low-life online

Many here will share my joy at discovering, thanks to a colleague here, The
Proceedings of the Old Bailey London 1674-1834,
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/, "A fully searchable online edition of the
largest body of texts detailing the lives of non-elite people ever
published, containing accounts of over 100,000 criminal trials held at
London's central criminal court." Truly a treasure-trove of misery.

Yours,
WM


Dr Willard McCarty | Senior Lecturer | Centre for Computing in the
Humanities | King's College London | Strand | London WC2R 2LS || +44 (0)20
7848-2784 fax: -2980 || willard.mccarty at kcl.ac.uk
www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Mar 26 21:32:37 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:32:37 -0800
Subject: demotic adjectives
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

to the list of nouns directly converted to adjectives, either via
predicative or compound-noun uses, add "punk", as in
   how punk are you?
   no matter how punk you pretend to be...
   that's so punk

not nearly as interesting as "w(h)ack", of course.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 26 23:21:24 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:21:24 -0500
Subject: Do you still beat your wife? (1901)
Message-ID: 

In the early '70s, WRC-TV in Washington, DC. interviewed me at some length for the local evening news.  I was referred to as "Sean Fitzgerald".

I immediately formulated this law:  "In any news story about which you have personal knowledge or direct experience, you will find errors".  I would call it Fitzger...Fitzpatrick's Law, but a few years later I read of a journalist who had already formulated the same observation.   For some reason it has not been enshrined in the Journalism Hall of Fame. 


Se?n Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Mar 26 23:38:06 2004
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sean Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:38:06 -0500
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
Message-ID: 

I just received an e-mail signed by "Jelmar Evenhuis" and "Wilbert Heeringa" of the "Humanities Computing" department of the University of Groningen.  The e-mail invites me to visit http://www.let.rug.nl/perception, listen to 11 recordings of different languages and dialects, and rate the distance of the varieties with respect to mother tongue.

Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities Computing department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.


Se?n Fitzpatrick
Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Mar 27 00:44:58 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:44:58 -0800
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
In-Reply-To: <005801c4138d$e0b7e0c0$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: 

I got the same message and took the survey.  It was kinda fun.

You can find Heeringa's home page at:



I got there via a link from the U. of Groningen's web site.

He's been employed at the university since 1998 and there's a notice of the
awarding of his doctorate in January of this year...

There are lots more links about him on the university web site.

Peter

--On Friday, March 26, 2004 6:38 PM -0500 Sean Fitzpatrick
 wrote:

> I just received an e-mail signed by "Jelmar Evenhuis" and "Wilbert
> Heeringa" of the "Humanities Computing" department of the University of
> Groningen.  The e-mail invites me to visit
> http://www.let.rug.nl/perception, listen to 11 recordings of different
> languages and dialects, and rate the distance of the varieties with
> respect to mother tongue.
>
> Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities Computing
> department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.
>
>
> Se?n Fitzpatrick
> Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
> http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 05:24:48 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:24:48 EST
Subject: Walk and Chew Gum (1966); So Old School...; Tom Fuller (1900)
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM

   Our earliest "walk and chew gum," when discussed about a month ago, was
this:


Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has:

1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr.  The office wit says he'llnever
take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't
even walk and chew gum at the same time.

It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably
dates from before 1967.

Fred Shapiro


   I re-checked.

 (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 1/20/1966
...so un-coordinated that he couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same By Victor
Biesel Strike.....Lud is also one of the fastest moving cloak-AND-dagger
legislators on Capito Hill AND.....member of Congress who is on House Banking AND
Currency Committee AND urge his support.....terms of time lost from work,
wages lost, AND the cost of treating the disease AND its..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 20, 1966  717 k

Lethbridge Herald - 4/8/1967
...uncoordinated that she can't even WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same fcse he
also says his.....than you can say Toe Bleke is a bubble GUM addict is bound to
have a rather.....12 goals AND 26 assists in 53 games, AND Red Kelly 38
points, 14 goals AND 24.....of seven one-over-par holes, ex birdies AND five pars
for. a 73 AND a 36-hole score..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 08, 1967  849 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/23/1966
...so muscular "he'd have trouble WALKING AND CHEWING GUM at the same time.
He'd just as.....football, basketball, wrestl, track, golf AND baseGiese. the
son of Mr. AND Mrs.....For1 that the good athlete is a lousy tune AND Dave
Prutz. Both Mosey AND Fortune.....gwsts was the appearance of of ANDerson AND
GraGreen Bay Packer tackle AND bowski in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, May 23, 1966  706 k

Daily Times - 12/29/1966
...I was so uncordinated I couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same time."
Mamie Van Doren.....the fielder led the AL in batting, homers AND RBI's, AND won
the MVP award: "Robinson.....there. The Spartans, who were the shakes, AND in
Kenmore, scored 24 points AND beaten.....performed by Nicholas. Charles 0.
Finley "AND he's just so kind to my wife AND ed fie A..
Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, December 29, 1966  591 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO OLD SCHOOL...

   This was in Friday's NEW YORK POST.  There are many Google hits, but not
for the POST's "old old school" joke.


(GOOGLE and WWW.NYPOST.COM)
New York Post Online Edition: sports
... He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To steal a line, he was
so
old school that they knocked down his school to build the old school. ...
www.nypost.com/sports/16098.htm - 22k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

* Lenny Lewin, who covered sports for The Post for 30 years, died Monday at
87. Lewin was old school. He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To
steal a line, he was so old school that they knocked down his school to build
the old school.


(GOOGLE)
U-Daily News - MUSIC
... Fittingly, in a year sporting an appearance by Little Richard ("I'm so
old school
the building wasn't even there yet'), SXSW '04 seemed to be about history ...

u.dailynews.com/ Stories/0,1413,211~23540~2038746,00.html - 40k - Mar 26,
2004 - Cached - Similar pages

hewlett's daughter: sara hebert
*2004-03-25 *5:57 pm *i'm so old school, they tore the school down.
i can flow. i can freak. i can freak and flow at the same time. ...
mariogirl.diaryland.com/ - 13k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Quotes
... the Wizard explains chaff "You're so old school, the school wasn't even
built..."
Joe explains Ray Please feel free to send me something to post.
home.cogeco.ca/~grizzlyrafting/quotes.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOM FULLER

   I don't know what DARE or the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK will have for "Tom Fuller."  John Mariani has an entry in his ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Newspaperarchive wasn't too helpful.  I tried "Tom Fuller," "Thomas
Fuller," and "Tom Fulla."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Review - 9/9/1900
...bins on the -mtimi. You must eat'some 'TOM FULLER' before you go away or
they will.....mam met him. Colonel Bai-tlett fish -as TOM Pointing talks Hcrel"
mis or W. Brcnncman.....easier way uf obtaining 'them. The low but'TOM.s of
the Illinois overllow every and when.....he grounds will be n Wg kettle where
t'he 'TOM. iP.uller' 13 made. This is something..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, September 09, 1900  769 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 05:40:39 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:40:39 EST
Subject: Walk and Chew Gum (1965?); So Old School...; Tom Fuller (1900)
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM

   Our earliest "walk and chew gum," when discussed about a month ago, was
this:


Even earlier, Newspaperarchive.com has:

1967 _Lethbridge_ (Alberta) _Herald_ 8 Apr.  The office wit says he'llnever
take his wife skiing again ... he says she's so uncoordinated that she can't
even walk and chew gum at the same time.

It could still be that the Johnson comment is the origin, if it reliably
dates from before 1967.

Fred Shapiro


   I re-checked.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News - 9/30/1965
...that he can't chew hisTornado offense? GUM AND WALK at the same; The only
similarity.....Gilliam had opened the inning with a WALK AND took second on a
ground out. Maloney.....six innings AND yielded all five runs AND six hits. He
WALKed seven AND fanned only.....for second-place had1 "We're in our worst
AND only money. The Dodgers are in AND were..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, September 30, 1965  838 k

Times Recorder - 1/20/1966
...so un-coordinated that he couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same By Victor
Biesel Strike.....Lud is also one of the fastest moving cloak-AND-dagger
legislators on Capito Hill AND.....member of Congress who is on House Banking AND
Currency Committee AND urge his support.....terms of time lost from work,
wages lost, AND the cost of treating the disease AND its..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, January 20, 1966  717 k

Lethbridge Herald - 4/8/1967
...uncoordinated that she can't even WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same fcse he
also says his.....than you can say Toe Bleke is a bubble GUM addict is bound to
have a rather.....12 goals AND 26 assists in 53 games, AND Red Kelly 38
points, 14 goals AND 24.....of seven one-over-par holes, ex birdies AND five pars
for. a 73 AND a 36-hole score..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, April 08, 1967  849 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 5/23/1966
...so muscular "he'd have trouble WALKING AND CHEWING GUM at the same time.
He'd just as.....football, basketball, wrestl, track, golf AND baseGiese. the
son of Mr. AND Mrs.....For1 that the good athlete is a lousy tune AND Dave
Prutz. Both Mosey AND Fortune.....gwsts was the appearance of of ANDerson AND
GraGreen Bay Packer tackle AND bowski in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Monday, May 23, 1966  706 k

Daily Times - 12/29/1966
...I was so uncordinated I couldn't WALK AND CHEW GUM at the same time."
Mamie Van Doren.....the fielder led the AL in batting, homers AND RBI's, AND won
the MVP award: "Robinson.....there. The Spartans, who were the shakes, AND in
Kenmore, scored 24 points AND beaten.....performed by Nicholas. Charles 0.
Finley "AND he's just so kind to my wife AND ed fie A..
Salisbury, Maryland Thursday, December 29, 1966  591 k

Tri City Herald - 2/29/1968
...coach who once said 1 couldn't CHEW GUM AND WALK at the same time." At
Goddard's.....trembling, they were gotten up cautiously AND gradually. AND we
didn't realize that it.....helped by early ambulation. The patient is AND, as was
customary, he was sitting up, AND.....To adults it's going back, j To
teen-agers AND youngsters j it's like today. AND they're..
Pasco, Washington Thursday, February 29, 1968  540 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SO OLD SCHOOL...

   This was in Friday's NEW YORK POST.  There are many Google hits, but not
for the POST's "old old school" joke.


(GOOGLE and WWW.NYPOST.COM)
New York Post Online Edition: sports
... He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To steal a line, he was
so
old school that they knocked down his school to build the old school. ...
www.nypost.com/sports/16098.htm - 22k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

* Lenny Lewin, who covered sports for The Post for 30 years, died Monday at
87. Lewin was old school. He even wore a tie and jacket to Knick practices. To
steal a line, he was so old school that they knocked down his school to build
the old school.


(GOOGLE)
U-Daily News - MUSIC
... Fittingly, in a year sporting an appearance by Little Richard ("I'm so
old school
the building wasn't even there yet'), SXSW '04 seemed to be about history ...

u.dailynews.com/ Stories/0,1413,211~23540~2038746,00.html - 40k - Mar 26,
2004 - Cached - Similar pages

hewlett's daughter: sara hebert
*2004-03-25 *5:57 pm *i'm so old school, they tore the school down.
i can flow. i can freak. i can freak and flow at the same time. ...
mariogirl.diaryland.com/ - 13k - Mar 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Quotes
... the Wizard explains chaff "You're so old school, the school wasn't even
built..."
Joe explains Ray Please feel free to send me something to post.
home.cogeco.ca/~grizzlyrafting/quotes.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOM FULLER

   I don't know what DARE or the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK will have for "Tom Fuller."  John Mariani has an entry in his ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Newspaperarchive wasn't too helpful.  I tried "Tom Fuller," "Thomas
Fuller," and "Tom Fulla."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Review - 9/9/1900
...bins on the -mtimi. You must eat'some 'TOM FULLER' before you go away or
they will.....mam met him. Colonel Bai-tlett fish -as TOM Pointing talks Hcrel"
mis or W. Brcnncman.....easier way uf obtaining 'them. The low but'TOM.s of
the Illinois overllow every and when.....he grounds will be n Wg kettle where
t'he 'TOM. iP.uller' 13 made. This is something..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, September 09, 1900  769 k


From bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sat Mar 27 08:18:11 2004
From: bjb5 at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:18:11 -0800
Subject: Web servey of perception of Germanic languages
In-Reply-To: <200403262356.i2QNu2jB023674@mxu5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

FWIW It was also sent to a linguistic list I co-own without signing up. I
thought that was kind of rude...

The survey seemed hard to me. I thought the first one kind of like mine, but
it was awfully difficult to gauge in comparison to foreign language and
other countries' English dialects.

Benjamin Barrett

>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Sean Fitzpatrick
>
>Does anyone know whether this is legit?  There is a Humanities
>Computing = department at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.
>
>
>Se=E1n Fitzpatrick
>Help the ontologically challenged realize their potential
>http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 08:40:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:40:07 EST
Subject: Waitress (1825); Food Myths at IACP conference
Message-ID: 

WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME: Apologies for the double post.  Ignore
the first post.  I waited a half an hour and saw the first post didn't go
through, so I re-posted and added to it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WAITRESS

   Merriam-Webster and OED have 1834 for "waitress."
   All of the earliest Newspaperarchive.com cites are from the TIMES OF
LONDON.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times - 12/12/1825
...W one u COOK, tha other HOVSClilAf D and WAITRESS. Apply to II. Tovey.
Recent1, Armn..
London, Middlesex Monday, December 12, 1825  982 k

Times - 7/9/1827
...S CHAMBaTRHAin, Housvniaid, or WAITRESS, in town or amp; Wotoui with a
snnA..
London, Middlesex Monday, July 09, 1827  1100 k

Times - 9/30/1826
...wjrt MU o-ml apply. "_ ___ ___ ______ or WAITRESS, in a Tavern or A S
CHAMI 'Hotel..
London, Middlesex Saturday, September 30, 1826  965 k

Times - 4/25/1827
...St. _ AS CtiAMnKHMAin, Housemaid, or WAITRESS, a IjL specMhle yomin; Woman
who ron..
London, Middlesex Wednesday, April 25, 1827  1304 k

Times - 5/8/1827
...Ike business has no ob'iecllan to untlon as WAITRESS, or to assist la Ihe
bat. Direct to..
London, Middlesex Tuesday, May 08, 1827  1249 k

Times - 11/8/1827
...attended to. ANTED, a young Woman., as v T WAITRESS in a respectable
Chophouw. Nrmtneed..
London, Middlesex Thursday, November 08, 1827  983 k

Times - 5/16/1827
...10, Swallowstrect, Piccadilly. _______ A S WAITRESS in a Chophouse,
Eatinghouse, or.....Bogtn't, 84. SnowMll. S CiiAHDERifAin, or WAITRESS, in a
respectable Tavern or Hatel.ln..
London, Middlesex Wednesday, May 16, 1827  1195 k

Times - 7/31/1827
...by a rnpeeiable Woman, gt; T SIT C WAITRESS In a or EaTlnnhoysp tiMd lo
the..
London, Middlesex Tuesday, July 31, 1827  1070 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FOOD MYTHS

   Those interested in "food myths" might want to see this:

http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html
Both these follow on the heels of the International Association of Culinary
Professional's annual conference in Baltimore, where Greg Patent, Damon Fowler
and I are doing a panel on "Spotting Food History Myths." Informally, we
entitled it "It Ain't Necessarily So...." That old myth spotter Andy Smith promises
to be in the audience that day. We are going to take out the iced tea was
invented at the St. Louis Fair myth, the one about lobsters and slaves, boarders,
prisoners, apprentices, etc.; the Neiman Marcus cookie one, and maybe go
after Sally Lunn, that famous Bath baker who ran up and down the streets peddling
her famous buns (no, not those buns....).

http://www.iacp.com/events/national/4-24-04.html
_Spotting a Food Myth When You See It_
We know better than to believe that the earth is flat or that alligators
reside in New York City's sewers.  So why do we persist in believing that iced tea
was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair or that Catherine de Medici
brought French food to France from Florence?


   Ah, too bad I'm not on the program!
  (See ADS-L archives for "ice tea" and "iced tea" and "Neiman Marcus.")


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 13:52:27 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:52:27 EST
Subject: Some "laws"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:21:24 -0500,  Sean Fitzpatrick
 writes:

>  In the early '70s, WRC-TV in Washington, DC. interviewed me at some
>  length for the local evening news.  I was referred to as "Sean
Fitzgerald".
>
>  I immediately formulated this law:  "In any news story about which you
>  have personal knowledge or direct experience, you will find errors".  I
>  would call it Fitzger...Fitzpatrick's Law, but a few years later I read
>  of a journalist who had already formulated the same observation.   For
>  some reason it has not been enshrined in the Journalism Hall of Fame.

In mathematics there is

BOYER'S LAW appears in H. C. Kennedy, "Boyer's Law: Mathematical formulas and
theorems are usually not named after their original discoverers," Amer. Math.
Monthly, 79:1 (1972), 66-67.

Boyer's theorem is found in 1968 in History of Mathematics by Barnabas
Hughes.

(note to Fred Shapiro: Hughes is on the Historia Matematica list, should you
wish to contact him)

quoted from "Earliest Known Uses of Some of the Words of Mathematics (B) at
URL
http://members.aol.com/jeff570/b.html

A somewhat different "law"

Bill Lyon, "From Where the Hawks sit, the view is sweet indeed" _Philadelphia
Inquirer_ March 25, 2004, page H8 (this is the jump page for the article)
column 1


    Tip-off, as mandated by CBS-TV, which controls sports with the same cold
buy-and-sell ruthlessness of a street-corner pimp, is set for 9:57.  This
inviting time, by the way, almost automatically assures that the first game,
Pitt-Oklahoma State, will be, oh say, triple overtime.  (This is known as Koppett's
Law:  Whatever will invonvenience the greatest number is what will happen.
Ergo, the second game will be going on past the bewitching hour.)


I have never heard of "Koppett's Law" before, but some of you New Yorker
types may have, since I believe Koppett is a well-known New York sportswriter.
This quote is of course yet one more variation on Murphy's Law, and oddly is
closer to what I once read (in a long-forgotten source) was Murphy's original
version, something to the effect that "when something fail, it will fail in the
most disastrous way possible".

"bewitching hour"??

              - James A. Landau

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup

PS.  I don't know if it still be true, but in my father's generation
reporters were taught that misspelling a person's name was a mortal sin.  Newspaper
style books would include instructions such as to insert "(correct)" after an
unusual spelling of a name, e.g. "Peter Samson (correct)..."

If misspelling a name is such a sin, then what can we say about giving
someone the wrong surname...

Which brings up one more "law", actually a didactic proverb used to warn
reporters about mispelling names.  I have seen this stated once or twice, in
long-forgotten sources, but never with someone's name attached:

"The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew Brzezinski
but Jon Smythe"


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Sat Mar 27 14:23:21 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:23:21 -0600
Subject: Some "laws"
In-Reply-To: <200403271352.i2RDqe222863@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

James A. Landau wrote:
> "The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew Brzezinski
> but Jon Smythe"

Isn't it "Zbigniew"?

Jim Parish


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sat Mar 27 18:04:00 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:04:00 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403270504.i2R54t2f014396@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Clai Rice writes:

> Not exactly American dialect, but likely useful nonetheless. --ccr

Fear not. Your post is constitutionally relevant. From the ADS
Constitution (http://www.americandialect.org/about.html):

II. PURPOSE

The American Dialect Society is organized in the interest of the
academic community and not for profit. Its object is the study of the
English language in North America, together with other languages or
dialects of other languages influencing it or influenced by it.

And if the English of England hasn't "influenced" N.A.English, then I
don't know what the word means.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From funex79 at CHARTER.NET  Sat Mar 27 18:07:15 2004
From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:07:15 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

Linguists:

The following is from a recent BBC newsletter:


Today's quote for the day comes from rock hell-raiser Courtney Love: "My
daughter is an incredibly grounded, normal human being. She's not
growing up cussing and not knowing linguistics. She knows what a pronoun
is."


J Foster


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Mar 27 18:14:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:14:21 EST
Subject: Like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat (1901);
 Sub screen doors
Message-ID: 

http://www.women-outdoors.com/traditional/country_sayings.htm

   A heaping helping of "Country Sayings" against Newspaperarchive.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
NO COW IN TEXAS?

   Ain't the pope Catholic?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 10/6/1932
...and if that's too much there ai'nt a COW IN TEXAS. Here's another thought
sixty.....reached his ears at times. Occasionally, as IN the street parade IN
Des .MoINes, there.....them. tho president .said at Des MoINes IN describINg
those acts as IN disregard of..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, October 06, 1932  918 k

Valley Independent - 5/11/1971
...Donner Ave, 684-9991 Monessen THERE ISN'T A COW IN TEXAS If Our Steaks
Aren't The BEST.....my composINg on the guitar and use it once IN a while IN a
performance although the.....audiences screamINg, jumpINg and clappINg IN unison
when they fINish their act IN order..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 11, 1971  870 k

News Journal - 5/31/1975
...sure to stay that way as long as there's a COW IN TEXAS. Two Ohio Schools
INvolved.....and brands IN a 200-acre spread down IN TEXAS. Nolan, of course,
is really just the.....4-45. LP Segui 3raun Lynn New Ill 002 5 9 TEXAS......
.020 203 9 .Vedich. Pagan Lyle (S.....matchmaker. These liaisons are not made
up IN bars near the ball park, but IN pastures..
Mansfield, Ohio Saturday, May 31, 1975  733 k

News Journal - 5/31/1977
...bear tracks IN the woods and there's a COW IN TEXAS. As a story, it's the
groom showINg.....A.J. Foyt is Clark Gable. As American as TEXAS. As direct as
a bust IN the nose.....to be out IN a 200-mile-an-hour traffic jam IN a heat
factor IN the cockpit of 115.....make little green apples and it does raIN IN
INdianapolis IN the summer time. And A.J..
Mansfield, Ohio Tuesday, May 31, 1977  796 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CROOKED AS A DOG'S HIND LEG

   Not in OED.  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "late 19C+."
   Said of lawyers, for some reason.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Marion Daily Star - 6/28/1887
...milos in length, and crookeder than a DOG'S HIND LEG. Then again the same
street will..
Marion, Ohio   Tuesday, June 28, 1887  592 k

Delta Herald - 7/18/1884
...bent like hoop poles, or crooked as a DOG'S HIND LEG, or broken in sunder,
evidences of..
Delta, Pennsylvania   Friday, July 18, 1884  671

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COULD TALK A DOG OFF A MEAT WAGON

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Hornellsville Weekly Tribune - 6/27/1890
...down in the corner. It would drive A DOG OFF A meAt wAgon. JAmes Lowe
without Any..
Hornellsville, New York   Friday, June 27, 1890  880 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NEVER TEACH A PIG TO SING

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 1/28/1986
...messAges, such As: "Never try to TEACH A PIG to SING. It wAstes your time
And Annoys.....the PIG." Or "When All else fAils, lower your.....for the ungrA
teful." And most of us could SING Along to this shirt's messAge: "1 owe, I..
Elyria, Ohio Tuesday, January 28, 1986  400 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/17/1991
...mommA AlwAys told me: "Never try to TEACH A PIG to SING. You wAste your
time. It Annoys.....the PIG." BILL DONDLOE CedAr Grove Something..
Placerville, California Wednesday, July 17, 1991  648 k

Chronicle Telegram - 11/6/1998
...one of the old sAw About trying to TEACH A PIG to SING: It wAstes your
time And Annoys.....the PIG. School officiAls shouldn't come bAck..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, November 06, 1998  511 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LIKE A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT

BLIND MAN + DARK ROOM + BLACK CAT--634 Google hits, 1,730 Google Groups hits

   These are my chances after Slim left the building.
   Actually, the blind man can probably hear and smell, so his chances are
quite good at finding the cat (not that he'd know the color).
   "That isn't there" or "which isn't there" or "that/which is not there" is
often added to the end of this one.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Trenton Times - 2/6/1901
...Justice resembles a BLIND MAN seeking In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
Isn't there.....Ill-timed couiugeu "i aumjm services of a MAN who knows what
he puns which are going.....womnn of ability to remain in the school ROOM. '_
The teachers' begins early In the.....riices are the descendants of Shem. The
BLACK races are descendants of Ham. The most..
Trenton, New Jersey   Wednesday, February 06, 1901  683 k

Manitoba Free Press - 2/3/1922
...heen compared to a BLIND MAN groping In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
Isn't there.....of the CAT nor the DARKness of the ROOM would be n handicap to
n BLIND but.....tho white MAN's rule over the native BLACK MAN there. series
of brutal siys a writer In.....Significance of the Washington Achievement MAN
and peace and Tho cymes who tell the..
Winnipeg, Manitoba Friday, February 03, 1922  989 k

Lethbridge Herald - 6/12/1943
...ago defined metaphysics as a BLIND MAN in a DARK ROOM looking for a BLACK
CAT that isn't.....thing in the world is hunting for a BLACK CAT on a DARK
night when the BLACK CAT is not.....in of the Times the sentence: rough, bluff
MAN in the street long.....tor a blanket Is not best garment lor a MAN tnho
wants be jitter he done a..
Lethbridge, Alberta Saturday, June 12, 1943  829 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 6/6/1941
...defined a pessimist as "a BLIND MAN in a DARK ROOM looking for a BLACK CAT
that isn't.....Hitler has sent his prize economic front MAN, Dr. Helmuth
Wohlthat, to Japan in order.....he was too young and inexperienced. FIND MAN'S
BODY New London, Wis. The body of.....Neale told the graduates. "The satisfied
MAN has reached his goal and has no other..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Friday, June 06, 1941  850 k

Sheboygan Daily Press - 12/6/1909
...of metaphysics, 'A BLIND MAN hunting In a DARK ROOM for a BLACK CAT that
isn't there.1.....a dapper little shape In evening clothes, a MAN still young,
with a round BLACK head; if.....carries his ears. If ward, he may be partly
BLIND or deaf, or both. If the ears are.....both Mercer and Tracy were equally
In the DARK with himself as to Atkins' plans, Atkins..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Monday, December 06, 1909  830 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORE CHINS THAN A CHINESE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY

MORE CHINS THAN A CHINESE--871 Google hits, 790 Google Groups hits

   That's fat.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Lima News - 3/7/1957
...of Quincy, VTass., knows one who has MORE CHINS than a CHINESE phone
directory. (For.....Earl Wilson 15 Women 12-13 Hit In Lima Two MORE opposition
letters were fired at State.....heavy police guard. Weaver was followed by MORE
lan a score of shouting white men, most.....the fata ity loll in the county at
five MORE han at the same date last year; )ne of..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, March 07, 1957  1173 k

Daily Tribune - 7/9/1973
...into the hotel. She was fat. She had MORE CHINS than a CHINESE telephone
directory. I.....as government functionaries, they are MORE aware, MORE Thought
for today I love to.....else. When they get there, they are much MORE likely
to a as the saying would have it.....that is of doubtful legality and is even
MORE suspect ethically. Pike said in a floor..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Monday, July 09, 1973  722 k

Gleaner - 7/15/2002
...fame. Now my fame has spread. I have MORE CHINS than the CHINESE telephone
directory.....this is an area to which boys are naturally MORE inclined, and
therefore spend MORE time.....week's JAS annual general meeting promising MORE
legislation along with a timetable for.....have become better organised and
MORE sophisticated in the methods that they..
Kingston, Kingston Monday, July 15, 2002  516 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 7/14/1973
...into the hotel. She was fat. She had MORE CHINS than a CHINESE telephone
directory. I.....meltand mold the heavy metal. MOR HEAT The MORE heat which can
be produced, the MORE.....in Rome one summer, her shoes pinched her MORE than
the men did. She said she got calls.....on Magnetic Fields at UNR this week,
is MORE used to talking in complicated terms..
Reno, Nevada Saturday, July 14, 1973  733 k

Lethbridge Herald - 1/9/1984
...jeans, drinks Pepsi Heavy and has MORE CHINS than a CHINESE phone book.
Joan Rivers.....of television shows, and is booked for MORE. "I'm she says. "I
have always wanted to.....She has known pain, and fears poverty MORE than
death. Her mother was born in.....who has pioneered ways of doing less for MORE, is
happy with the arrangement. As Joan..
Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, January 09, 1984  531 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
COULD STAND UNDER A CLOTHES LINE IN A RAIN STORM AND NOT GET WET

   That's skinny.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 7/16/1966
...I suspect he (Addison) could stAnd UNDER A CLOTHES LINE during A rAin
storm And not get.....through grAduAtion were in the offensive LINE. We hAve sever
Al willing people there.....through experience And in the offensive LINE And
the defensive bAckfield, two.....And Bill Gentry (E) heAd up our offensive LINE
. Pete SokAlsky (DE) And Dennis Byrd (DT..
Frederick, Maryland Saturday, July 16, 1966  716 k

News Journal - 10/19/1966
...A pipe deAner between gAmes. He could duck UNDER A CLOTHESLINE in A rA
mstorm. He's so.....Us AlmA mAter. He plAyed lor the WildcAts UNDER PAul "BeAr"
BryAnL The Kentucky post.....LSU -where he bAd been chief AssistAnt UNDER PAul
DietzeL The soft-spoken nAtive of..
Mansfield, Ohio Wednesday, October 19, 1966  708 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS

SUBMARINE + SCREEN DOORS--494 Google hits, 420 Google Groups hits

   Useless.  Not practical.
   Who started this one?


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 1/4/1970
...As much sense As the proverbiAl SCREEN DOOR ON A submArine. TO THEM, it me
Ans A girl.....Herbert Hoover Appointed her to serve ON A White House CON
ference ON Child HeAlth.....s A mAchine in ElyriA. it's in A neAt home ON Fifth
Street And it cAn tAke interested..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, January 04, 1970  703 k

Mountain Democrat - 5/14/1980
...is about as popular as a SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS WITH the rest of the
fire.....and treasurer took over. SUBMARINE WITH SCREEN DOORS? EDITOR: This
letter is in.....has been a while since writing an article WITH reference to El
Dorado Irrigation..
Placerville, California Wednesday, May 14, 1980  422 k

News - 4/27/1995
...thAt they Are About As effective As SCREEN DOORS IN A submArINe, surely
they constitute.....Their nAmes were prINted on the TV SCREEN beneAth the logo:
"BombINg IN OklAhomA.....to try. The INcumbent wAs the eAsiest shoe-IN IN 1994
IN Frederick County. Mr. Derr And.....only did the RepublicAns mAke greAt g
AINs IN the MArylAnd GenerAl Assembly IN lAst yeAr..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, April 27, 1995  553 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
IF "IFS AND BUTS" WERE CANDY AND NUTS, EVERY DAY WOULD BE CHRISTMAS

   Seems older than the below citations.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Gettysburg Times - 9/14/1983
...line." he said. "If IFS AND BUTS wTere CANDY AND NUTS, we'd have a heck of
a.....looks at you AND wonders where the ball is AND vou kind of smile AND
say. "Gone." AND.....s the fun of it. when you throw the ball AND get knocked
down AND the guy.....But he became disenchanted with the midwest AND with the fro
nt-office meddling AND quit..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, September 14, 1983  942 k

Dominion Post - 1/29/2003
...a pause, Porter added, IFS AND BUTS were CANDY AND NUTS, every day would
be Christmas.....eating up two-thirds of the playing time AND Briggs performing
as a role player. AND.....16-3, 4-1) count losses at No. 2 Pittsburgh AND at
No. 7 Kentucky AND to No. 16 Creighton.....of driving. With Thomas at point
guard AND Carroll AND Miller, a senior transfer..
Morgantown, West Virginia   Wednesday, January 29, 2003  691 k

Capital - 9/13/1983
...Don Meredith he said. 'If IFS AND BUTS were CANDY AND NUTS, we'd have a
heck of a.....AND knocked down AND the guy looks at you AND wonders where the
ball is AND you kind of.....smile AND say, AND you hear him matter an
expletive.....But he became disenchanted with the midwest AND with the front-office
meddling AND quit..
Annapolis, Maryland Tuesday, September 13, 1983  774 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
REGGAE, TRAVELOG

   These came up on a search for "invented the word."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Appleton Post Crescent - 7/22/1958
...died today. Holmes, whose organization INVENTED THE WORD travelog, jspent
more than.....At THE time of THE contract delay, THE army turned down THE
appeal. THE.....it as THE pictures were being shown take THE edge off THE silence.
THE club decided to.....feelings in THE United States against THE Soviet
people. THE Soviet reply to THE..
Appleton, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 22, 1958  814 k

Gleaner - 3/8/1998
...CLAIM Contributed Ras'Cardo claims that he INVENTED THE WORD 'reggae'.
somewhat.....producer, says he has copyrighted THE WORD, 'reggae This he did at
THE United.....Do THE Reggae', but no one knew where THE WORD came from up
until THEn. According to.....in Latin. "So it just felt he said, "...THE music of
THE kings of THE street." Over..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, March 08, 1998  426 k


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Mar 27 20:12:12 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:12:12 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403271804.i2RI42Vc029551@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> The American Dialect Society is organized in the interest of the
> academic community and not for profit. Its object is the study of the
> English language in North America, together with other languages or
> dialects of other languages influencing it or influenced by it.

Haven't pretty much all languages influenced North American English or
been influenced by it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Mar 27 20:21:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:21:26 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Haven't pretty much all languages influenced North American English or
>been influenced by it?

Pretty much. But caution: there is a lot of material on Nostratic looking
for a home ... not to mention Klingon ....

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Mar 27 22:51:50 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:51:50 -0500
Subject: in-migrant
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My impression is that both in- and out-migration (and -migrants) are used
regularly in sociological writing.  I don't recall where I picked it up.

Ber

At 08:55 AM 3/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Scripsit James Landau:
>
>         >>>
>Aside to Bererly Flanigan:  "in-migrants"?
>         <<<
>
>I don't remember seeing Ber///Bev's use of it, but I've seen it for many
>years referring to population movements between regions within a
>country, e.g., "The Black population of the Northern cities was swollen
>by a flood of in-migrants from the South". I assumed, and still suppose,
>that it was used instead of "immigrant" because the latter is used for
>people coming from abroad, not moving within the national boundaries.
>
>Ditto of course "in-migration", which I think I've actually seen more
>often than "in-migrant". And ISTM much less of "out-migrant/tion".
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 03:18:56 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:18:56 -0500
Subject: Grits ain't groceries (1965); "Blind man," "Candy & nuts" update
Message-ID: 

   Back at NYU with the better databases.

---------------------------------------------------------------
GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES

GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES--2,390 Google hits, 466 Google Groups hits

   Grits Ain't Groceries Lyrics (various web sites--ed.)
If I don't love you baby,
grits ain't groceries,
eggs ain't poultry,
and Mona Lisa was a man.


   It's a song title.  Life would be a bowl of cherries if I could find this food phrase before that.
   OT:  I read somewhere that "Mona Lisa" _was_ a man.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: George Jones' greatest hits.
Vol. II
Author(s): Jones, George, 1931-  (Performer - prf)
Publication: [S.l.] :; Mercury,
Year: 1960-1969?
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Music Type: Country music
Standard No: Publisher: MG-21048; Mercury; LCCN: 94-765751
Contents: Eskimo pie -- Money to burn -- Just one more -- Aching, breaking heart -- Wandering soul -- Big Harlan Taylor -- Seasons of my heart -- You're still on my mind -- If I don't love you (grits ain't groceries) -- When my heart hurts no more -- Cup of loneliness -- Tarnished angel.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Post Crescent - 6/8/1969
...Columbia CS Evil Ways (Willie' Bobc, Verve GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES (Little Milton, Checker.....Milton is one great blues singer, and "GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES" is one outstanding..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Sunday, June 08, 1969  267 k

Coshocton Tribune - 5/5/1975
...at a good pace. Among the highlights are "GRITS AIN'T GROCERIES (Broad St. "Grandma's..
Coshocton, Ohio   Monday, May 05, 1975  1355 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
A BLIND MAN IN A DARK ROOM LOOKING FOR A BLACK CAT/HAT THAT ISN'T THERE (continued)

   I tried "black cat" and "black hat."  I still can't beat 1901.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
Article 2 -- No Title
The Dial; a Semi - monthly Journal of Literary Criticism, Discussion, and Information (1880-1929). Chicago: May 1, 1908. Vol. Vol. XLIV., Iss. No. 525.; p. 263 (4 pages)
First Page:   ...--it is an old simile--as a blind man looking in a dark room for a black hat that is not in the room.

(JSTOR)
New Books
H. R. Mackintosh; H. Wildon Carr; W. L. Lorimer; James Lindsay; J. Laird; Helen Bosanquet; John Edgar; A. E. Taylor; W. L. M.; M.; W. D. Ross; A. Wolf; S. J. Chapman
Mind, New Series, Vol. 21, No. 84. (Oct., 1912), pp. 576-601.
Pg. 579:  He is greatly pleased with the old gibe against metaphysics that it is like "a blind man in a dark room hunting for a black cat which--is not there!  He does not tell us who the "keen think and great lawyer" is who "not long ago" made this comparison, but the new version of this venerable joke which substitutes hunting a black cat for looking for a black hat, is hardly an improvement, for unless all electro-magnetic disturbances are supposed excluded from the dark room there is no absurity in looking in it for the black cat.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
DANGERS AT OUR DOORS.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 11, 1918. p. II4 (1 page):
   It must have been an American who defined a pessimist as "a blind man looking in a dark room for a black hat which wasn't there."

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Topics of The Times
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 3, 1939. p. 18 (1 page):
   If the hour were not so serious, one might say of Winston Churchill that he polished up his phrases so carefully that now he is the ruler of the King's navee.  Speaking of Soviet Russia's purpose, the British First Lord of the Admiralty has just said, "It is a riddle wrapped in mystery inside an enigma."  Conceivably the epigram was suggested to Mr.   Churchill by a popular definition of metaphysics: a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
About A Definition
ERIC UNDERWOOD. Washington, Nov. 24.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 30, 1942. p. 8 (1 page) :
   I hope Mr. Walter Lippman will not mind my pointing out that his story of "a student who once said of philosophy that it was like the search in a dark room for a black cat that wasn't there" is incomplete and not quite accurate.
   The correct version is that: "a student said of metaphysics that 'it was like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black hat that wan't there.'"
   I am sure Mr. Lippmann will agree that metaphysics for philosophy, the immobility of a hat as compared with a cat and the fact that the searcher was blind are improvements on his version.
   The story is attributed to the English Prime Minister, himself a philosophical scholar, who was England's leader at the outbreak of the war of 1914-1918--Herbert Henry Aquith, afterward Earl of Oxford and Asquith.
   ERIC UNDERWOOD
Washington, Nov. 24.

---------------------------------------------------------------
IF "IFS" AND "BUTS" WERE CANDY AND NUTS (continued)

   Dandy Don Meredith dood it.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
  1. Producer Forte Makes ABC Go On Monday Night; Producer Forte Makes ABC Go on Monday Nights
By Lawrence Laurent Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 26, 1972. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:  On-the-air and at public meetings, Meredith is the bucolic, puppy-friendly, old-shoe, ex-athlete.  He has made a running gag, lasting for three seasons, about his inability to explain pass interference.  He is filled with country boy wisdom:
   "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts,
   We'd all have a Merry Christmas."

   2. Of Eggs, Fish, Hot Dogs and Football
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 10, 1974. p. C10 (1 page):
   "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas," Meredith said, repeating an on-the-air favorite.

   3. Maryland Solves Duke in Time; Terps Down Duke After Slow Start
By Mark AsherWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1975. p. E1 (2 pages)

   4. Jimmy The Greek Gives Fewer Points for Fervor
By Dave BradyWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Dec 7, 1976. p. D6 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 04:15:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:15:22 -0500
Subject: Navajo "Frybread" (1957); Nacatamales (1945); Waitress (1818,
 1819)
Message-ID: 

NAVAJO "FRYBREAD"

FRYBREAD--7,510 Google hits, 1,860 Google Groups hits

   Still not in OED.  Not as "frybread," not as "fry bread," and not in the "Navajo" revision under "Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Navajos."
   Navajo "frybread" just made ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Education Urged to End Squalor, IIIs of Navajos; Medical Missionary Finds Tribesmen Slow to Follow Advice of White Friends NAVAJO PROBLEM
HARRY NELSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 23, 1957. p. 2 (3 pages)
Third page:  "Mutton and frybread.  Carbohydrates and grease.  No green vegetables.  No fruit.  No milk.  Is it any wonder that Zonnie and so many others like her cannot follow directions?"

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 3/2/1997
...Miss NAVAJO Nation 1996 also were judged on FRYBREAD making and sheep butchering.....NAVAJO Nation contestants also must make FRYBREAD and butcher sheep. tribe and its.....662-6189; (520) 8714108, (520) 871-5466 NAVAJO Tribal NAVAJO Arts and Crafts: housed.....Each of the fair events has a distinctly NAVAJO twist. The Miss NAVAJO Nation contest..
Elyria, Ohio   Sunday, March 02, 1997  520 k

News Journal - 8/1/1965
...of a diet consisting primarily of FRYBREAD and mutton stew, the daily fare of.....pancake shaped patties and fry. The result: NAVAJO fry-bread. The Rev. Carl Noggle Jr., a.....NAVAJO Indian Missionary who is spending the.....most NAVAJO Indians. The Noggles, former Marion..
Mansfield, Ohio   Sunday, August 01, 1965  756 k

News - 4/3/1971
...came to the Waverley School to make NAVAJO FRY BREAD for all the students. The NAVAJO.....the State Crime Commission. Raymond NAVAJO FRY BREAD On Friday, March 19, Mrs. Irene.....to see the process of the making of FRY BREAD. The receipe for FRY BREAD is: Flour.....Mrs. Alice Castillo, left, and Mrs. Jeff, NAVAJO Indians who accompanied the NAVAJO..
Frederick, Maryland   Saturday, April 03, 1971  842 k

Chronicle Telegram - 7/12/1972
...Snow said. The cooks used a NAVAJO Indian FRY BREAD, which is sconelike, flat and.....lettuce. Serve with cheese crisps or dark BREAD-and-butter sandwiches. Pass salad.....for the hamburger consisted of milk and BREAD used as a dressing. The chuck roast was.....cut costs by doing more than baking our own BREAD and making our own salad dressings..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, July 12, 1972  664 k

News - 4/5/1991
...onemonth visit to Frederick, baked "NAVAJO FRY BREAD" for students at Waverley School.....findings. IRENE WARNER AND ALICE CASTILLO, NAVAJO Indians accompanying a group of.....elementary NAVAJO school children on a..
Frederick, Maryland   Friday, April 05, 1991  654 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
NACATAMALES

THROUGH UNKNOWN NICARAGUA:
THE ADVENTURES OF A NATURALIST ON A WILD-GOOSE CHASE
by Mervyn G. Palmer
London: Jarrolds Limited
1945

   Another cite, in case OED is interested.

Pg. 107:
   The owner of the ranch had shot a deer in the morning, so I had a good meal of venison-_nacatamales_, with coffee.  These nacatamales, or as the native word is frequently shortened into plain "Tamales," are an indigenous dish made by steaming together, in leaves, a mixture of maize-dough, rice, vegetables, spicing and meat, either chicken, pork or deer.  They are very handy to carry in their neat little packet of leaves done up like parcels and tied with a string or a strand of flexible bark, and are very savoury.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WAITRESS

   I re-checked on the TIMES OF LONDON database.  (Newspaperarchive doesn't have the full thing.)
   The 1818 "waitress" citations don't clearly deal with eating establishments, but the 1819 citations of "waitress" do.


   THE TIMES, April 6, 1818, pg. 4, col. A:
AS HOUSEMAID, Waitress, or Chambermaid, a young woman, aged 25.

   THE TIMES, October 24, 1818, pg. 3, col. F:
AS WAITRESS OR CHAMBERMAID...

   THE TIMES, March 18, 1819, pg. 4, col. A:
AS COOK, Chambermaid, or Waitress in an Inn, Tavern, or Coffee-house, a respectable young woman,...

   THE TIMES, October 25, 1819, pg. 4, col. A:
AS CHAMBERMAID in an Hotel or Tavern, or Waitress in a Chop-house or Eating-house, a young woman, aged 27, who can have 18 months' character from her last place.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Mar 28 08:39:49 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:39:49 -0500
Subject: "Jinx" etymology summary
Message-ID: 

[A correspondent requested that I summarize my proposed etymology. OK, here
goes.]

ETYMOLOGY OF "JINX"

==========

1887-1894: THE FRANK DANIELS MUSICAL COMEDY "LITTLE PUCK" INCLUDES THE
CHARACTER JINKS HOODOO ("A CURSE TO EVERYBODY, INCLUDING HIMSELF")

[During this period the fashionable word for "carrier of bad luck" in
baseball columns etc. was "hoodoo"; this alternated with "Jonah",
"nemesis", etc., occasionally, but I don't find stand-alone "jinx"/"jinks".]

==========

_New York Daily Tribune_, 18 Jan. 1888: p. 4, col. 6:

[from the cast list of "Little Puck"]

<>

----------

_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 21 Feb. 1888: p. 3, col. 1:

[description of "Little Puck"]

<>

----------

_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 12 Mar. 1889: p. 4, col. 5:

<>

[P. Giltedge is a capitalist. Dr. Hercules Savage is his son's intimidating
schoolmaster.]

----------

_Decatur Daily Republican_ [Decatur IL], 21 Oct. 1893: p. 3, col. 5:

<>

----------

_Bucks County Gazette_ [Bristol PA], 20 Sep. 1894: p. 1, col. 6:

<>

[Just to verify that "Little Puck" was well known. It was presented as late
as 1894 to my knowledge.]

==========

1895-1906: THE NAME "JINKS HOODOO" IS APPLIED TO CARRIERS OF BAD LUCK

[Cf. the names Jonah (earlier) and Joe Btfsplk (Al Capp) (later).]

[Still no stand-alone "jinx"/"jinks" in this sense. "Hoodoo" remains
current in the baseball news etc.]

==========

_Hawaiian Gazette_ [Honolulu], 19 March 1895: p. 2, col. 4:

[Smoke appears on shipboard during a card game. There is a nervous Mr.
Ficke on board expressing grave forebodings about the fate of the ship etc.
The smoke is found to be innocent.]

<>

----------

_Nevada State Journal_ [Reno NV], 4 Apr. 1906: p. 8, col. 3:

<>

==========

1907-PRESENT: "JINKS"/"JINX" ALONE REFERS TO A CARRIER OF BAD LUCK (OR TO
THE CURSE ITSELF), SYNONYMOUS WITH "HOODOO"

[I find "jinx"/"jinks" in the appropriate sense in baseball and
prize-fighting contexts from 1909, and a single example which appears
possibly aberrant/nonce/erroneous in 1907.]

==========

1908: _A. Mutt_ (comic strip by Bud Fisher, anthologized 1977): pp. 25, 28
(also quoted in HDAS):

[A. Mutt decides to give up racetrack betting.]

<>

[Of course he continues to gamble. He decides that the odds-makers are
discriminating against him, so he gets his mustache shaved off to disguise
himself.]

<>

----------

_Fort Wayne Sentinel_ [Fort Wayne IN], 13 June 1910: p. 10, col. 1:

<>

----------

_Fort Wayne Sentinel_ [Fort Wayne IN], 17 June 1910: p. 14(?), col. 3:

<>

==========

This may be compared with the 'conventional' derivation from "jynx" [bird
or charm], promulgated by OED, MW3, etc. In HDAS (v. 2, p. 283):
"reintroduced as sports slang _ca_1905 from its occurrence in T. Urquhart's
translation (1673) of Rabelais -- the sole E[nglish] quot. given by the
_OED_" Reading between the lines, I believe I detect a trace of
[Lighter's?] skepticism here.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 09:59:12 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:59:12 EST
Subject: Hatchet Job (1940); Hatchet Man (1936); Subway Series
Message-ID: 

HATCHET JOB

HATCHET JOB--28,300 Google hits, 20,100 Google Groups hits

   From "Page Six" (actually, page 10) of Sunday's NEW YORK POST, 28 March
2004:

   FRESH from a bizarre on-air showdown with CBNC talk-show host _Dennis
Miller), left-wing MSNBC pundit _Eric Alterman_ has accused The New York Observer
of boing a second "hatchet job" on him.
(...)
   The thin-skinned scribe, who claimes that Observer writer _George Gurley_
skewered him in a "bitchy hatchet job" last year, responded by charging that
the snarky salmon-colored weekly has it out for him.


   A chess-playing friend of mine once called me "The Hatchet."
  "Get it?" he said.
   "No."
   "Barry.  Barry the Hatchet!"
   I didn't particularly like the joke, so I killed him.


(WWW.LOC.GOV)
Brief Description:  [Hatchet (Washington, D.C. : 1883)]
The Hatchet.
Washington, D.C. : The Hatchet Pub. Co., 1883-
v.
v. 1, no. 1 (Dec. 1, 1883)-



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Wellsboro Gazette - 8/29/1940
...S'lrday school at 2 and worship Ickes' HATCHET JOBS, consisting of
Siiruiay school..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Thursday, August 29, 1940  693 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 8/26/1940
...Instead it was one of "Donald Duck" Ickes' HATCHET JOBS, consisting of
subtle.....eetings as speakers or aas asserted. URGES JOBS, SECURITY Plum City,
Oratory nnot head.....which can be stopped ly by providing JOBS for our ople
and security for .those too.....to aspire only to the white collar JOBS where
would we get brainy people enough..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Monday, August 26, 1940  894 k

Nevada State Journal - 10/12/1943
...got. control of Congress and would do real HATCHET JOB if they got,
complete control of..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, October 12, 1943  832 k

Zanesville Signal - 2/22/1945
...accused a national poll today of doing a HATCHET JOB on' George
Washington. Bloom said..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, February 22, 1945  838 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 2/22/1945
...the Eastern iront. Poll Is Accused Of Doing HATCHET JOB on Washington Rep.
'Bloom (D-N.Y.....accused a national poll today of doing a HATCHET JOB on
George Washington, Bloom said..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Thursday, February 22, 1945  864 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 1/12/1943
...income groups. We have seen the political HATCHET JOB that was: done On
the President's.....of wellheeled workers to lay down on the JOB in order to
extend the time of their.....worker with the urgency of tiis particular JOB when
he could not be told specifically.....brazen cases of absenteeism because his
JOB is largely dependent on his popularity..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts Tuesday, January 12, 1943  876 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HATCHET MAN

   The HDAS has 1941 for "hatchet man."  We can beat this, too.  The movie
was probably a major influence.
   Edward G. Robinson as a Chinaman named Wong Low Get??


(WWW.IMDB.COM)
Hatchet Man, The (1932)
Directed by
William A. Wellman
Writing credits
Achmed Abdullah (play)
J. Grubb Alexander
Genre: Crime / Drama
Plot Summary: San Francisco Tong hatchet man Wong must execute his boyhood
friend Sun. Sun agrees to will him all...
Complete credited cast:
Edward G. Robinson  ....    Wong Low Get
Loretta Young   ....    Sun Toya San
Dudley Digges   ....    Nog Hong Fah
Leslie Fenton   ....    Harry En Hai
Edmund Breese   ....    Yu Chang
Tully Marshall  ....    Long Sen Yat
J. Carrol Naish ....    Sun Yat Ming (as J. Carroll Naish)
Charles Middleton   ....    Lip Hop Fat
E. Allyn Warren ....    Soo Lat, the Cobbler
Edward Peil Sr. ....    Bing Foo (as Eddie Piel)
  (more)
Also Known As:
Honourable Mr. Wong, The (1932) (UK)
Runtime: 74 min
Country: USA
Language: English
Color: Black and White
Sound Mix: Mono

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Newark Advocate - 11/30/1937
...to his party." Hejmocracy when Democrats, HATCHET, MAN Poulson, who acted
as had a good.....for 1939. Washington, Nov. 30. PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT asked
congress today to reduce.....went to work so swiftly today on i PRESIDENT
ROOSEVELT's proi gram to encourage.....legislature Horace Goldin, inventor of an "
HATCHET men." P.epubiicans and Democrats..
Newark, Ohio Tuesday, November 30, 1937  783 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 7/17/1935
...said they learned of Jung's record as a HATCHET MAN from Frank Moy.
unofficial "mayor.....States supreme court wrecked NRA. PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT appealed
the highest court's NRA.....14 1-4. REVEAL SUSPECT IN LANG MURDER IS "HATCHET
" MAN Chicago, July Chinatown broke.....the end, a Progressive resolution
praising PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT for appointing Immell was..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Wednesday, July 17, 1935  926 k

Chronicle Telegram - 3/30/1936
...daris hanging out of windows." he torial HATCHET-MAN by naming for the
PRESIDENTial.....National Committee has paid PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT the compliment
of imitation. They.....and save all parties concerned including PRESIDENT
ROOSEVELT carloads of future grief.....ROOSEVELT favored a new commission a three-
MAN board to replace treasury alcohol control..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, March 30, 1936  930 k

Monessen Daily Independent - 9/8/1936
...room and came up behind the drink-crazed "HATCHET MAN." Kotch gave one
leap and Kochin.....Press} Washington. Sept. 8 PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT, satisfied
with reaction to his.....of the local 'lodge are Joseph Lescanac, PRESIDENT;
Walter Malec, vice-PRESIDENT.....HELD AFTER CUTTING AFFAIR A sharp-edged HATCHET
and a steel-bladed penknife were..
Monessen, Pennsylvania Tuesday, September 08, 1936  884 k

Nevada State Journal - 1/30/1938
...is I vision. the President's chief HATCHET MAN This is of the most
impoiVant.....little fellows" makes for cheaper Harold ICKES, Secretary of the
Inprices and easier.....that of the men 2.74W. In the dormitories. MAN zarita halls
averagewas that of Lincoln.....In opposition to this view are the J.icluon
ICKES Douglas group, disciples of Justice..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, January 30, 1938  743 k

Frederick Post - 2/9/1938
...he has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....him that he should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....He was no more bitter in his criticisms of ICKES
and Burlew than MANy other of ICKES.....Charlie West was Roosevelt's chief
liaison MAN with Congress. He was undersecretary of..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, February 09, 1938  966 k

Bismarck Tribune - 2/26/1938
...be has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....times from Chihe should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....staff of Un dersecretary Charles West, has
MAN aged to liquidate hljrpet the proposed.....It looks as If Secretary "Honest
Harold" ICKES in liquidating the office..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Saturday, February 26, 1938  771 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 2/10/1938
...he has been an able, fearless, oratorical HATCHET MAN for Roosevelt and
that his public.....him that he should not attack Burlew. ICKES Blamed West
ICKES got the idea, rightly.....He was no more bitter in his criticisms of ICKES
arid Burley than MANy other of ICKES.....but is he a squealer if he turns in a
MAN who takes bread and butter right out of..
Ironwood, Michigan Thursday, February 10, 1938  848 k

Bedford Gazette - 4/8/1932
...Sat. Apr. 15-16 Double Feature Program "THE HATCHET MAN" Edward G.
Robinson, Loretta.....of Bedford County at Bedford, Monday. J. L. ICKES and family
and Miss Mary ICKES spent.....at State College last year it required 5.63 MAN
hours and 4.64 tractor hours an acre to.....of Mr. and Mrs. Rush Burket. Miss
Rebecca ICKES returned to Teachers' College at Lock..
Bedford, Pennsylvania Friday, April 08, 1932  674 k

Nevada State Journal - 11/9/1938
...speech." Now Charlie is known as the No, 1 HATCHET MAN for the Washington
gang. As a.....matter suggest the figure of Mr. Harold ICKES, who gets a year,
but when he felt the.....for the post of the Administration's No. HATCHET MAN
. Twenty-five years in Washington.....Mr. Barton himself may have had Mr.
ICKES and his rest cure at a day in mind, but..
Reno, Nevada Wednesday, November 09, 1938  698 k

Ironwood Daily Globe - 7/6/1938
...on WHIRLG1G Washington Gal TWO the list of HATCHET MAN Tommie Corcoran.
Tommie alone is.....backed in that Iowa affair. Secretary ICKES' family believes
in democracy picnic.....at the White he was the original Roosevelt MAN in the
state but he doesn't comMANd.....his convenience. "Nothing doin' grunted Mr.
ICKES. "I'll take my turn." And he's still..
Ironwood, Michigan Wednesday, July 06, 1938  874 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)(earliest seven citations)
Atlanta Constitution - 2/23/1906
...that he was never in New and that he is not HATCHET MAN of any tong. Lura
Is out on his.....located her. He went, together with Lum Wo, HATCHET MAN of
the Lum Tong, to confer with.....of well and good for Lum; but If he was the
HATCHET MAN who helped to slay Chang his fate.....mag-nates in New York, I would
toe the last MAN in to criticize and denounce -others for..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 23, 1906  596 k

Atlanta Constitution - 2/23/1906
...Wo. a criminal of dark who is known as the HATCHET MAN of both the Lum and
the Hip Sing.....Tongs. In the of Chinese a HATCHET MAN Is an official
murderer and every.....is said to 'eat pie. Wo, the noted HATCHET MAN, is to have
three The Atlanta Lum.....time 'he kills a MAN, he..
Atlanta, Georgia Friday, February 23, 1906  525 k

Daily Herald - 12/9/1903
...a commission to kill a MAN a good HATCHET MAN is selected to do the bloody
work. Or, if.....years. The horse is certainly the friend of MAN; but MAN
floes not seem to be the friend.....instance have prospered most. The salaried
MAN as a rule, the MAN who lacks capital. His.....farmer is counted a really
freeI handed MAN in his community, as we j happen to know..
Delphos, Ohio Wednesday, December 09, 1903  796 k

Fresno Weekly Republican - 1/28/1898
...it to titone Kholi.ivo it not. An Chief HATCHET MAN of tbo Literary
IliehbinJpra ho.....not find in the acquirement of money, Tho MAN of whom he writes
ia a rich MAN, a.....We have in A. J, Fittery o Tulare an able MAN whoEs loug
eer vice in the party aud.....aouthorn end of the diotrict that ho ia tbe MAN
for the placa. Baline moveraent to secure..
Fresno, California Friday, January 28, 1898  647 k

Mountain Democrat - 6/17/1899
...boring his converts by the thousand. A HATCHET-MAN from San Francisco
Mriouily.....less than 540 steps in the time a healthy MAN would breathe once. A
MAN with.....forced a potato down his throat. The old MAN had evidently fought
hard for his life.....surrounding the the fate of Haynes. Every MAN in the
town of Prince ton, Ey., was fined..
Placerville, California Saturday, June 17, 1899  573 k

Decatur Daily Republican - 7/28/1882
...West Antrim, known here an n. little HATCHET MAN, who could but wouldn't
tell a.....were being sold as antique. There is an old MAN in Olic-nt who
imitates them very.....and Borcerera only on solemn occasions each MAN may act as
his own augur on behalf of.....That's the only tiling we replied the old MAN
with a mournful sigh. "We've got schools..
Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 28, 1882  691 k

New Oxford Item - 5/3/1895
...what expected of him as their descendant. A HATCHET MAN, wearing a
.coraltipped mow.....Thugs, who had more ways of killing a MAN than you would think
possible HATCHET-men.....brown mustaclte. He was a self-made MAN, a true son of
the people, a MAN whom.....in America is the very worst thing one MAN can say
of another. And Shotover never..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, May 03, 1895  671 k

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SUBWAY SERIES (continued)

   Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES City section celebrates 100 years of the NYC
subway.
     See the ADS-L archives for w hat's wrongly stated here:

1921 The Giants play the Yankees at the Polo Grounds in the first Subway
Series. Giants win 5 games to 3.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Mar 28 14:19:07 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:19:07 -0500
Subject: new on WWW: records of the Old Bailey
In-Reply-To: <200403280500.i2S5092f003615@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Douglas Wilson warned:

Pretty much. But caution: there is a lot of material on Nostratic
looking for a home ... not to mention Klingon ....

        ===

Be warned: I do Klingon. I've been in the KLI for years, and I'm in
their current translation project. And it's certainly influenced by
N.A.Eng.

         tlhIngan veQbeq marqem la'Hom
 Heghbej ghIHmoHwI'pu'! -- Death to Litterbugs!
 Subcommander Markemm, Klingon Sanitation Corps
         http://mark.cracksandshards.com/


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Mar 28 16:29:23 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:29:23 -0500
Subject: grass roots (1880's)
Message-ID: 

I have the "recollections" statement about grass roots in the political
sense going back to the 1880's.  I have not found it after searching the
historical NYT in Proquest.  Has anyone found it in archives of 19th
century papers?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Sun Mar 28 17:02:34 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:02:34 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
Message-ID: 

An article in today's Baltimore Sun

(http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/arts/bal-as.hewitt28mar28,0,6684849.stor
y?coll=bal-artslife-society)

states that "During the same convention, [Don] Hewitt and Sig Mickelson, then
president of CBS News, coined the word 'anchorman' to describe a new style of
reporting being done by their recent hire - a man named Cronkite."

The convention was the 1952 Republican convention in Chicago. No citations are
given. RHUD says 1955-60 for this usage; I don't find other dictionaries that
date it.

Orin Hargraves


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Sun Mar 28 17:32:00 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:32:00 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's Detroit
Free Press:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm

I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of the
issues we've been ruminating on.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
Department of English/Computing and Information Technology
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

Phones:  C&IT (313) 577-1259/English (313) 577-8621


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Mar 28 18:04:48 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:04:48 -0800
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <4064EB73@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: 

> An article in today's Baltimore Sun
>
> (http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/arts/bal-as.hewitt28mar28,0,
> 6684849.stor
> y?coll=bal-artslife-society)
>
> states that "During the same convention, [Don] Hewitt and Sig
> Mickelson, then president of CBS News, coined the word
> 'anchorman' to describe a new style of reporting being done by
> their recent hire - a man named Cronkite."
>
> The convention was the 1952 Republican convention in Chicago. No
> citations are given. RHUD says 1955-60 for this usage; I don't
> find other dictionaries that date it.

I've heard this tale before, but can't remember where--it may have been a
broadcast interview with Cronkite telling the tale. My memory is that CBS
covered the convention with 3 other reporters and Cronkite serving as the
central figure. The term was taken from track and field usage, the
"anchorman" in a 4-person relay.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 18:57:48 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:57:48 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
Message-ID: 

>From a story in the _Mount Pleasant(IA) News_ 28 Nov, 1952   page 6/col 4
(Newspaperarchive)

(The entire article talks about newspeople who had just covered the
Convention.)

<>

The story is headlined "NY (INS)"  but no author.

So, did Hewitt coin the name only days before this writer?  How did this
writer learn of the coinage?

Sam Clements


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 19:44:43 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:44:43 EST
Subject: "Astroturf"
Message-ID: 

"Now operatives e-mail their dirt or counterdirt out at 6 a.m.  By breakfast,
the material is being parroted by talk-show hosts, bloggers, and letter
writers recruited by the Astroturf (i.e., phony grassroots) operations..."

Probably a nonce usage, unfortunately.  I hope it catches on, in which case
it will be a worthy candidate for WOTY.

source: Chris Satullo "Turning up partisan noise turns off voters"
_Philadelphia Inquirer_ March 28, 2004, page C7 (op-ed page)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural style---as when
he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"
(note on context: the article was about how Kerry's verbose speaking
style---"inability to put a period in his sentences"---was costing him.  The remark
about Bush was for comparison of speaking styles and was not a political
comment.)

I can think of several adjectives to use here, starting with "blunt" and
going on to "Gary Cooperesque", but "guttural"?

source:  John F. Harris "Kerry" _Atlantic City Press_ March 28, 2004 page A9
column 4 (this was a jump from page A1).  The article apparently is originally
from the _Washington Post_

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jim Parish writes:

> > "The person who gets his name misspelled in print is not Zbignew
Brzezinski
>  > but Jon Smythe"
>
>  Isn't it "Zbigniew"?

Yes.  I had no idea how to spell "Zbigniew Brzezinski" so I did the safe
thing:  I checked on the Web.  Specifically I Googled on +Carter+"National
Security" and found the Web site www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1191.cfm, from which I cut
and pasted the name.  Guess what.

And this was in a posting about Murphy's Law!

To top it off, when I first typed this letter, I mispelled your name (I put
two r's in it).

(If it makes you feel any better,  www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1191.cfm turns
out to be a crackpot site, a fact which is not apparent from the Google
listing.)

         - Jim Landau (red-faced)


From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 21:31:33 2004
From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:31:33 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <200403281857.i2SIvroW027040@ncmx03.mgw.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

Sam Clements had passed along:

> From a story in the _Mount Pleasant(IA) News_ 28 Nov, 1952
> page 6/col 4 (Newspaperarchive)
>
> (The entire article talks about newspeople who had just covered the
> Convention.)
>
> < trial by TV.
> Solid, sure reporting, amazingly neutral manner under every
> circumstance(*until the Chicago/Rather thing--sc)  with no
> compulsion to
> inject excitement or color where none exists; an ideal anchor
> man, by far the best of CBS-TV's team.>>
>
> The story is headlined "NY (INS)"  but no author.
>
> So, did Hewitt coin the name only days before this writer?
> How did this writer learn of the coinage?


I think we can at least back this specific usage of "anchor man" up a
few weeks to November 4, 1952:  CBS took out display ads in *The New
York Times* (pg. 36) and *The Los Angeles Times* (pg. 21) encouraging
viewers to watch its election-night coverage and featuring "Walter
Cronkite; 'anchor man' as he was for both political conventions."


But it bears pointing out that writers for *The New York Times*, at
least, had referred to other types of TV personalities as "anchor men"
before the conventions had taken place, though not precisely in the same
sense.

[From Murray Schumach's "TV Panel Anchor Man; Affable Herman Hickman Is
Not Infallible," 10 December 1950; Pg. X15.]

   Herman Hickman, probably the first man to parlay pigskins
   and poetry into a television contract, was having trouble
   with a memory usually infallible.  The man who had memorized
   countless yards of poetry, assorted classical rhetoric and
   mazes of razzle-dazzle football plays could not recall how
   he came to be a permanent panel member for "Celebrity Time,"
   televised each Sunday night, (WCBS-TV:  10-10:30).

Arthur Daley also mentions Hickman's appearance on "Celebrity Time,"
holding that "Herman became a regular, the most solid anchor man any
quiz show ever had."  [From "The Fabulous Herman Hickman," 28 October
1951; Pg. 34.]  (Hickman had been a football coach and profession
wrestler, so "anchor man" -- which, as Dave has pointed out, already had
a well-established usage in sports -- wasn't too much of a stretch.)


More significantly, though, Leo Cherne had already referred to Lawrence
Spivak -- host, chief questioner, and producer of "Meet the Press,"
NBC's news/interview program -- as an "anchor man" in March 1952, before
the summer's political conventions had taken place.

[From Leo M. Cherne's "Biggest Question on TV Debates," *The New York
Times*; 2 March 1952; Pg. SM14.]

   In one typical and stimulating "Meet The Press" session
   Bertrand Russell confronted a panel of journalists.  There
   was no presentation of what the noted philosopher believes
   on any one subject.  Nor, as a matter of fact, did the program
   leave an understanding of any one of the hundreds of
   controversial views he has articulated in a long life.  What
   emerged from the television screen, and what undoubtedly
   remained in the minds of the viewers, was the personal contest
   between acidulous Lawrence Spivak, anchor man on the "Meet The
   Press" panel, and Lord Russell.


I suppose, then, it's possible that by the summer of 1952, "anchor man"
in a broadcast sense was not unfamiliar to those who read press reports
about the media; in July, Mickelson and/or Hewitt may have simply
finetuned its usage to fit Cronkite's leadership role in election
broadcasts and later on a nightly news program.

-- Bonnie Taylor-Blake


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Mar 28 22:11:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:11:55 EST
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
Message-ID: 

   Here we go again.
  
  
ANCHORMAN

    ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
  
  Color's Pretty, But Not Yet Ripe; 'Capitol Cloakroom' Has a Birthday; By 
Sonia Stein; The Washington Post (1877-1954), Washington, D.C.; Apr 2, 1950; pg. 
L1, 2 pgsPg. L2:Producer Lewis Schollenberger...  (CBS--ed.)"We let them 
dodger them any way they can, and since a good part of a Congressman's trade is 
knowing how to deflect questions they are pretty successful," according to 
Griffing Bancroft, anchor man on the team of newsmen who handle the show.
  
  
ASTROTURF
  
   From www.wordspy.com (PLUG: buy the book by Paul McFedries):
  
astroturf 
(AS.troh.turf) n. A fake grass-roots movement.
?astroturfing pp.

Example Citation:
"Of the calls we are getting in the D.C. office, about half are Astroturf and 
half are real," said Mr. Milburn, in Mr. Hobson's office, using Washington 
parlance for calls that seem to be from individuals but are in fact orchestrated 
by lobbying groups.
?Katharine Q. Seelye, "Public Is Flooding Capitol With Impeachment Views," 
The New York Times, December 15, 1998 


Notes:
This word is a nice play on AstroTurf, a brand of artificial grass. 


Earliest Citation:
Issue-oriented newspaper advertisements featuring clip-out coupons are often 
designed to show that the sponsor's goal has grass-roots support. But the 
"grass roots is AstroTurf in many cases, artificial turf," says Sen. Lloyd 
Bentsen, D-Texas. A case in point, in his view, is the recent ad campaign by the 
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States against increases in excise taxes 
on liquor. Bentsen reports that a third of the 190 coupons his office received 
were altered to express support for tax increases that the coupon says could 
raise the price of a bottle of liquor $2 and "put a lot of people in the 
beverage alcohol business out of work."
?"Playing on astroturf," The National Journal, April 19, 1986 

Subject Categories: 
The World - Activism 
The World - Politics 

Posted on December 17, 1998
 


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Mar 28 23:34:04 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:34:04 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
Message-ID: 

From: 

   Here we go again.

  ANCHORMAN

    ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:

Yep.  You did.  I just forgot to search for "anchor man" rather than
"anchorman."  Unlike the Times, I apologize.

So, then, the final answer is that Hewitt is BSing on this invention.

SC


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Mar 28 23:54:03 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:54:03 -0600
Subject: anchorman (1952?)
In-Reply-To: <20040328221208.5A57056DF@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

If I'm correct that the development of this term is something like this:
   (1a)  Bottom of graduating class (Navy)
   (1b)  Hindmost member of a tug-of-war team (Navy)
 > (2)  Last member of a team to play (relay race, bowling)
 > (3)  Pivotal or best member of a team (akin to cleanup hitter)
 > (4)  Host of a broadcast news program

Then it's not clear to me, without more context, whether Barry's citation
exemplifies (4) or (3) or possibly even (2),  even though it is indeed
about a broadcast news program.

--Tom Kysilko

At 3/28/2004 05:11 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>   Here we go again.
>ANCHORMAN
>
>     ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
>   Color's Pretty, But Not Yet Ripe; 'Capitol Cloakroom' Has a Birthday; By
>Sonia Stein; The Washington Post (1877-1954), Washington, D.C.; Apr 2, 1950;
>  pg.
>L1, 2 pgsPg. L2:Producer Lewis Schollenberger...  (CBS--ed.)"We let them
>dodger them any way they can, and since a good part of a Congressman's trade
>  is
>knowing how to deflect questions they are pretty successful," according to
>Griffing Bancroft, anchor man on the team of newsmen who handle the show.


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Mar 29 00:57:54 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:57:54 -0500
Subject: anchorman (1952?); Astroturf
In-Reply-To: <001301c4151d$281f95d0$a8601941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 06:34:04PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> From: 
>
>    Here we go again.
>
>   ANCHORMAN
>
>     ADS-L archives.  I posted this on 26 June 2003:
>
> Yep.  You did.  I just forgot to search for "anchor man" rather than
> "anchorman."  Unlike the Times, I apologize.
>
> So, then, the final answer is that Hewitt is BSing on this invention.

Not necessarily. He could believe that he coined it. Indeed, there's
no reason he couldn't have spontaneously recoined it; there's nothing
especially novel about this use that suggests it needed a Tom Wolfean
feat of verbal ingenuity to spring into existence.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 03:13:32 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:13:32 -0500
Subject: Talking Turkey (1837, 1839); Poor as Job's Turkey (1828)
Message-ID: 

   For any turkey lurking out there.  I'll re-check these two when Readex comes out with its EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS in the "second quarter 2004."  So that's--April?

---------------------------------------------------------------
TALKING TURKEY

   OED appears to have this from 1824, and this would be the second citation.  This citation indicates that it's from the colonial period.

Article 6 -- No Title; THE WISH. AUGUSTA. HELEN. ANNA. EMILY.
The New - York Mirror: a Weekly Gazette of Literature and the Fine Arts (1823-1842). New York: Jul 8, 1837. Vol. 15, Iss. 2; p. 16 (1 page):
   TALKING TURKEY.--The exact signification of this colonick phrase has recently been discussed by some of our contemporaries, and has been finally settled by the Oneida Democrat, which gives an account of its origin.  An Indian and a white man went a shooting partnership, and a wild turkey and a crow were all the result of the day's toil.  The white man in his usual style of making a bargain with the Indian, proposed a division of the spoils in this way:--"Now, Wampum, you may have your choice, you take the crow and I'll take the turkey, or if you'd rather, I'll take the turkey and you take the crow."  Wampum reflected a moment on the generous alternative thus offered and replied--"Ugh! you no talk turkey to me a bit."

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Adams Sentinel - 1/7/1839
...ihe TURKEY." s-jit ihe Indian, "you no TALK TURKEY to me alaii." S POOR. Ii is an old.....pair.ot rnind iv.rti away from j ?'ey lii'k TURKEY to us at a: ihe people will scon lalk.....Indian, who, bur.ting logciher, killed a TURKEY anil a crow, and on c'iviiST the.....sa-ii io tbe Indian "Now'. I'll take the TURKEY, and may have the crow or. if you..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Monday, January 07, 1839  803 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
POOR AS JOB'S TURKEY

   OED has 1824 for "patient as Job's turkey."  DARE has 1830 for "poor as Job's turkey."

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
Article 2 -- No Title; Paul and Virginia.
The Western Monthly Review (1827-1830). Cincinnati: Oct 1828. Vol. 2, Iss. 5; p. 281 (6 pages)
Third page:  Both of them are poor, as Job's turkeys.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Edinburgh Advertiser - 12/6/1811
...I presented ray bill, he This makes one AS POOR AS JOB I have just been paying for a.....which I took of old John Hodge, a POOR, but very honest m.in, and who, I dare.....of his M.IJ-TJty's forces in the island, AS weil AS by the inhabitants, who testified.....IE, upon the OHicers under his command, AS well AS the general discipline of the..
Edinburgh, Midlothian   Friday, December 06, 1811  426 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 05:23:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:23:51 -0500
Subject: Tip of the iceberg (1947); Keep your chin up (1882, 1893)
Message-ID: 

  More of Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS & SAYINGS.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TIP OF THE ICEBERG

  Titelman's first citation is 1969.  Is the 1912 citation below correct?  Everything else is 1947--.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Rural France: Shrug and 'So What' Greet Paris Political Crisis; 'But Still There Is France,' Say Peasants as Cabinets Fall Even Tempo Caught Off Guard Little Effect Treadmill Politics Revolutionary Climax Endless Belt Treated Like Comedians Base Remains Unmoved
By Volney D. Hurd Chief of the Paris News Bureau of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 9, 1948. p. 13 (1 page):
  The French Government is just the tip of the iceberg out of water.  It plays, gyrates, changes, sparkles, dances, and falls.  But underneath the water is the calm solid mass representing the true center of the iceberg.  It rests unchanged and unshaken.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Chronicle Telegram - 6/29/1949
...cache ever found. we've only scratched THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG here. We've only gone.....pole. THE troopers smelled a rank odor from THE back OF THE truck and foundTHE body OF a.....OF THE Lincoln Legal Papers, a project OF THE Illinois Historic Preservation Agency.....THE sources said THE guerrillas, members OF Hezbollah, or Party OF God, were ambushed..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, June 29, 1949  875 k

Chronicle Telegram - 11/9/1949
...strengths and talents, yet it is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG in terms OF student.....last year in THE number OF students taking THE Scholastic Aptitude Test was reported in.....21. list OF student achievements represents THE efforts OF hundreds OF students with.....and measurement OF emissions while THE car's engine idles. Cuyahoga County is..
Elyria, Ohio   Wednesday, November 09, 1949  545 k

Nevada State Journal - 9/29/1912
...an -intricate sentence or in soUnns 'a TIP OF THE ICEBERG that shows problem." THEre.....s. a resiOenl: OF Neva'Oa in THE boom days 'OF THE Omstocl; an. a I'oiknver OF THE camps.....for ihe prosperity OF THE people. It ix THE sigenvy. through which THE poopie OF THE.....preparing to .enter OF a few facts; say, OF THE case OF Ralph, THE case OF some know..
Reno, Nevada   Sunday, September 29, 1912  1081 k

Chronicle Telegram - 8/5/1949
...disclosed in a recent audit may be just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG and he wants more answers.....I'm very concerned that this is just THE TIP OF a very large Glenn said. Feds say.....as THE Perseids. So it's hard to anticipate THE density OF THE region Earth passes.....Society report with Zidian Wu. To see THE meteors, gaze in THE direction OF THE..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, August 05, 1949  539 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 2/26/1947
...understand." Hospitalization is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. Volunteers also could.....power OF THE presidency is pitted against THE liabilities OF THE presumed Democratic.....did." THE woman was asked why she thought THE icon would weep. "For THE state OF THE.....anoTHEr man had taken OF THE icon and THE photograph showed only a ball OF white..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Wednesday, February 26, 1947  498 k

Mountain Democrat - 12/17/1889 (WRONG DATE!!!!--ed.)
...is still unclear 10 me. This is just THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG in THE dcvelopmen: OF ihe.....THE 500 participants. Also contributing to THE festivity and success OF THE event were.....tumbling out OF THE bus with him, wrestled THE gun away with THE help OF a passenger.....THE require THE regular aid and attendance OF anoTHEr person. 0 As THE widow OF a World..
Placerville, California   Tuesday, December 17, 1889  482 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR CHIN UP

  Titleman says: "Originated in the United States in the 1940s."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
MY TIME, AND WHAT I'VE DONE WITH IT.; CHAPTER IV. THE WELCOME HOME. CHAPTER V. SCHOOL-TIME.--GLIDING ONWARDS. CHAPTER VI. CHAPTER VII.
FRANCIS C BURNAND. Old and New (1870-1875). Boston: May 1873. Vol. 7, Iss. 5; p. 546 (21 pages)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne Daily Gazette - 9/9/1882
...little more to the, that's too iilueh. YOUR CHIN UP. about YOUR h-ft hand. YOUR ft el ft.....as of ten as you like. that'll Jo. So, YOUR CHIN is too high. that's it. smile. it UP.....right fout is out too much. out for YOUR CHIN. Therejust so. you are all right. Just.....and bridegroom the single ladies are drawn UP in one row, and the bachelors in another..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, September 09, 1882  414 k

Daily Advocate - 10/1/1893
...come and found him rebellious. He kept his CHIN UP never confessed that tierce.....raising the window) You must have been hard UP for companionship when you lit that one..
Newark, Ohio   Sunday, October 01, 1893  688 k

Freeborn County Standard - 2/2/1898
...Xol Impatient Husband (tired of holding his CHIN UP) It's taking you an awfully long time.....more active, lithe and than Bob. Sitting UP presently, he gazed at the broad, level.....he moved only when th chestnut's head was UP, his object be 1 seen as possible. he have.....effect that the leeing creature was brought UP with in abrUPt turn. As if realzing the..
Albert Lea, Minnesota   Wednesday, February 02, 1898  1132 k

Daily Northwestern - 12/1/1900
...KA.Horn and J. F. W. druggists. Keep your CHIN UP. (If you arc a woman, you won't have.....to be In the flgrht chiefly to even UP with Rosewater, who beat Mm in the Omaha.....from any number of sources to go into a tie-UP, but he is holding aloof until it can be.....heart, attacks of dizziness when getting UP in the morning, and was in a generally run..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Saturday, December 01, 1900  921 k

Broad Ax - 12/8/1900
...nearly always striking for wages. Keep your CHIN UP. (If you He a woman, yon won't have.....Others however, equally great took UP the InterrUPted thread with the result.....the-.' s conti'iiclpd thii ni'th t> ''Tiilr UP the Hannah llrifl would be children fron..
Chicago, Illinois   Saturday, December 08, 1900  559 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 05:57:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:57:25 -0500
Subject: Keep your feet on the ground (1896,
 1913); Keep your fingers crossed (1913)
Message-ID: 

"KEEP YOUR CHIN UP" CORRECTION:  Sorry for that 1873 American Periodical Series cite still there.  It has "your chin up," but I didn't find it.  No "keep your chin up."

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED

   Gregory Titelman's AMERICAN POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS has: "Originated in the 1920s."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Wichita Daily Times - 6/13/1913
...615 Eighth DOUBLE HOODOO TODAY KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED For Bad Luck Is Apt to Be.....tbe 13th and only those who have kept their FINGERS CROSSED tho day bavo como through.....at 10.00; saving of 3.50 IJ This makes YOUR second suit come pretty easy; it's a big.....from. We guarantee you a perfect fit or YOUR money refunded Our to all: One-third..
Wichita Falls, Texas   Friday, June 13, 1913  303 k

Oxnard Daily Courier - 2/7/1920
...WHAT 1975 WILL PRODUCE Feb. KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED in 1975. As far as that goes.....any month of the present year is likely to KEEP you "knocking wood" and praying to YOUR..
Oxnard, California   Saturday, February 07, 1920  692 k

Iowa City Press Citizen - 10/13/1922
...vessels racing to the scene KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED Look out -or ladders an-J.....Oct. I" The c'ers who had to haro spurs to KEEP viction of ihe Eev. Thomas J. their feei.....jinx idea, here are a few arguments in YOUR favor. CoJumbus' expedition which..
Iowa City, Iowa   Friday, October 13, 1922  818 k

Fort Wayne News - 3/29/1916
...lines for next Wednesday mornIng. KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED-SUN'S SHINING THE WEATHERMAN.....but don't say it .too loudly and KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED, .because the weather man has.....with the first application or return YOUR money. There are lota of shin remedies..

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND

   Titelman has: "The proverb is first attested in the United States in 1931."
   There's the 1913 citation below, with a reference to the Yale Alumni Association, but I'm sure Fred won't mention that in the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS.  Yale can't get everything!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1913. p. 12 (1 page):
   Mr. TAFT is a fine lawyer, he was a sound Judge, has proved by many tests his ability as an administrative officer, and promises to become an excellent teacher.  He has laid down at least one safe and sane condition.
   Speaking the other night to the Yale Alumni Association in Washington he said that the men who have been teaching political economy in our universities in recent years have not kept their feet on the ground, with the result that the undergraduates have not been properly indoctrinated in true Americanism. (...)

Display Ad 5 -- No Title
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 1, 1919. p. 1 (1 page)
   _Keep your Feet on the Ground_
(...)
   BABSON'S STATISTICAL ORGANIZATION

SOLIDITY OF TAMPA IMPRESSES VISITORS; BACKGROUND IS REAL; Much Industrial Development Seen; Surrounding Country Is Immensely Rich. RESOURCES OF BANKS GAIN $56,000,000 Makes More Clear Havana Cigars Than Does the Capital of Cuba.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 27, 1925. p. FDN5 (1 page):
   Tampa, Dec. 26.--"Hitch your wagon to a star" is a favorite admonition of the idealist.  It simply means to aim high.  "Keep your feet on the ground" is another bit of advice, not so alluring as the wagon-hitching phrase, but with more appeal to the person who has an eye on the eternal verities.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   (NOTE:  The "1889" MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT "hits" are mis-dated and removed--ed.)
Trenton Evening Times - 8/14/1920
...Success THE rules for golf arc KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE' GROUND; KEEP YOUR eye ON THE.....for success are YOUR-funtis-in-ihe baiilT; KEEP YOUR eye ON YOUR goal, And cany ON.....ESCAPE. THE Legislature having frowned ON THE propositiON that, THE State purchase.....side-tracked THE Whitman Home bill. THE Hick FIGHTING BLOOD. THE slogan of THE..
Trenton, New Jersey   Saturday, August 14, 1920  847 k

Gastonia Daily Gazette - 6/3/1920
...he an swered: "1 WOOD'S WORDS "KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND and YOUR eyes ON Cod.....American sailors reaching THEir unpracticed FEET for THE liar mils in Dirty I'lace, or.....with us came THE chief American port ON tin' cONtinent, to catch THE trade of THE.....here. If you are ambitious for YOURself or YOUR loved ONes, start an account..
Gastonia, North Carolina   Thursday, June 03, 1920  544 k

Indiana Evening Gazette - 3/5/1921
...ONe.) DON't become a high flyer KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND. ;Reznor Gas' Heaters to.....hearing ON THE railroads' applicatiON to THE Railroad Labor Board for abrogatiON of.....Hard-ware and good service -Why not do YOUR IHppping at THE Big1 Warehou.: THE.....under THE guardianship of THE council. THE milk valued at is THE cONtributiON to THE..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Saturday, March 05, 1921  1028 k

Mountain Democrat - 2/4/1922
...serviceable. makes ha told her. "KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND, Snowbird; THE house is.....pace down THE ridge. Dan had to race to KEEP ap with her. But it waaut entirely wise.....And by THE tim> he had crawled ONe hundred FEET over THE snow crust THE whole structure.....THE citizens as a gymnasium and cONference GROUND. It was here that Plato purchased a..
Placerville, California   Saturday, February 04, 1922  865 k

Massillon Independent - 8/22/1895
...her lips vinemously an stampin her purty FEET ON THE GROUND. go away, woman, an dON't.....caji give, YOUR nii'.jfsty a hit of cord to KEEP THE crown sal'-. Mr. Mi chael. rournl jn.....breakfast an found his majesty sit wud his FEET in a tub of hot wr groaiiin mighty bard.....Tieruan should be threadiu 01 ench delicate GROUND, or perhaps it dhread that he was..
Massillon, Ohio   Thursday, August 22, 1895  815 k

Indianapolis Star - 3/6/1910
...that diabolical crank la. want to KEEP YOUR FEET ON THE soft pedal. You went to work.....him how glad I was to got my FEET ON THE GROUND again. f got out as best I could.....it's THE extraordinary circumstances that KEEP coming up that Jar you out of YOUR.....that hill, YOUR rear wheels are liable to KEEP ON going. That's what THEy call skidding..
Indianapolis, Indiana   Sunday, March 06, 1910  1188 k

Newark Daily Advocate - 8/2/1896
...opiniON that preachers should KEEP both FEET ON THE GROUND and not strike a gait of.....life. "Now, all you have to do is to KEEP YOUR FEET cm THE pedals, and dON't hesitate.....accepted, and he was told to sit down and KEEP quiet until THE meeting adjourned. M.....Formerly he had THE hardest kind of work to KEEP his cONgregatiON awake, not to say..
Newark, Ohio   Sunday, August 02, 1896  878 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 06:31:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:31:40 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?,
 1913); Keep your nose clean (1877)
Message-ID: 

KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES

   Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand adopted it as the title for a series of cartoons published in the New York _Globe_ and other papers."
   I didn't expect to find anything earlier.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Ohio Democrat - 2/15/1894
...and THE Kniselys, when THEy can KEEP UP WITH THE SMITHS and THE Joneses. Our.....M. C. A. Lecture Course. March 9th, 1894, "UP THE Rhine and Oyer THE Major Henry C. Dane.....Directory shows THE names cf 30 .SMITHS, 30 Millers, 29 Joneses, and 28.....that stop THE paper WITHout settling UP: Take THE year you were born in and add..
New Philadelphia, Ohio   Thursday, February 15, 1894  900 k

---------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN

   Titelman has: "The proverb has been traced back to _Tragedy in E Flat_ by L. R. Gribble (1938)."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
   FIFTY YEARS AGO; OR, THE CABINS OF THE WEST.; No. 3.
ROSELLA RICE. Arthur's Illustrated Home Magazine (1873-1879). Philadelphia: Mar 1875. Vol. 43, Iss. 3; p. 149 (6 pages)
(I didn't see it--ed.)

   The World of Humor.
Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Mar 19, 1881. Vol. Vol. 60., Iss. NO. 35.; p. 14 (1 page):
   A youth invested a dollar and a half in a New York firm to discover "How to appear well in society."  The receipt which he received by return mail was short, simple, and easily understood:  "Always keep your nose clean, and don't suck more than one finger at a time."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne News - 6/21/1919
...people's business." 'Advice. Just KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN and behave, ..And poverty .won't.....Gabb. "The Greecian replied Mr. Gabb. "The NOSE I admire most is the NOSE that is kept.....government warehouses "Why scheme about to KEEP this off the American market and send it.....who have such a lovely job in a nice, CLEAN hotel where we have the esteemed honor..
Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, June 21, 1919  820 k

Indiana Democrat - 5/31/1877
...anil easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't suc.k.more than one.....Proprietor. Ing all logs necessary to KEEP tlie mills well supplied with logs for.....run the risk. About this time my son read YOUR advertisement in our paper, a testimony.....VEUET1NE, and I recommend it to my friends. YOUR Vegetine ought to be In every family. My..
Indiana, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1877  791 k

Bridgeport Telegram - 10/1/1918
...t worry. 'i, KEEP YOUR feet warm. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN. Eat slowly. Do YOUR best. Mind.....JUST ftHD, REAUUY ONE MUST KEEP ABREAST OFTHE STVLE5? IT fRoh ME .THAT.....a swig out of a flask of his famous x 'NOSE Paint.' %vhat wonld the name of the.....of It. WHAT DO VA LUCK.? WORRIED BECAUJCT KEEP INS TULLER R HEALTH Anclrew F. Currier..
Bridgeport, Connecticut   Tuesday, October 01, 1918  773 k

Washington Post - 3/3/1921
...catarrh Relief so quickly. Adv. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN common colds are infectious and.....Is cash in Problems. Hew can parents best KEEP in touch with their children's school.....colds. Cold gisrUJB will not thrive In a NOSE that la kept i lean and wholesome. Mayr.....Head-CoUs. Iris Spleadu) Tn one iblnute YOUR doffed AOattlll Of en, the air passages..
Washington, District Of Columbia   Thursday, March 03, 1921  495 k

Herald And Torch Light - 7/18/1877
...and easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and do not suck morettaa one.....thc above is jus the thing yon want to KEEP YOUR Harness, Boots, Shoes and Buggy.....Think of it If you should hereafter whip YOUR child, I wish you could have YOUR..
Hagerstown, Maryland   Wednesday, July 18, 1877  1003 k

Coshocton Tribune - 3/3/1921
...is seriously iJi their home on KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN Common colds arp infectious and.....colds. Cold germs will not thrive in a NOSE that Is kept CLEAN and wholei some. Mayr.....break up colds, too It's comforting to KEEP it handy. Three sizes 35c. 70c, ?1.40.....all reliable pharmacists the country over. KEEP in mind the name. Dr. Carey's "Marshroot..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, March 03, 1921  598 k

Trenton Evening Times - 11/18/1920
...iT-c.rininp by nbnm'nnttii: ;f KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN until 1ft" n 'T v fa i No. lOdi B.....r "it to timt .thi K XTwent on With any "CLEAN-Up." l.-Birn.if d. ad. It would not Int.....CANDY .You .will be satisfied if you, buy YOUR Candy here. We have the largest.....town. Just Received The best candies marie, YOUR choice can easily be" mads from the..
Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, November 18, 1920  719 k

Olean Democrat - 8/25/1887
...and easily understood: "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't suck more than one.....which will come across the ocean. Leave YOUR orders for new Parlor and odd pieces..
Olean, New York   Thursday, August 25, 1887  679 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 07:17:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:17:53 -0500
Subject: Let the chips fall/fly where they may/will (1855)
Message-ID: 

   Gregory Titleman states:  "The allusion is to the lumber industry: the woodcutter continues to hew and ignores any small chips that fly around as a result.  The proverb was used by Senator Roscoe Conkling (1829-88) of New York in a speech supporting the nomination of Ulysses S. Grant for a third presidential term."  The date given for that is 1880.


(WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION)
Print Source: Ruth Hall
Fern, Fanny,
New York : Mason Brothers, 1855.
Pg. 338:  "HOW are you, Walter," said Mr. Lewis, extending his hand; "fine day; how goes the world with you?  They say you are a man who dares to 'hew to the line, let the chips fly in whose face they will.' ..."
  (This is also on MAKING OF AMERICA-MICHIGAN--ed.)

Print Source: Nellie Brown, or, The jealous wife
Detter, Thomas.
San Francisco : Cuddy & Hughes, 1871.
Pg. 102:  It is my duty to guard well every outlet of society, as well as its avenues.  I shall this day hew to the line, let the chips fly in whose face they may.


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Diplomacy of the Sword: pp. 360-370
p. 362 1 match of 'let the chips'
  in: Title: The United States Democratic review. / Volume 43, Issue 2
Publisher: J.& H.G. Langley, etc. Publication Date: October 1859
City: New York
   But we are discussing general principles; we must "hew the line, let the chips fly where they will."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Portsmouth Times - 12/31/1859
...that may be tured, I will hew to THE Hoe, LET THE CHIPS fall where THEy may." I believe.....wish, since THE matter has found its way to THE public prints, to state to THE public.....on a careful examination of THE law on THE subject, it appears to be THE duty, of.....be planned to continue THE buHiner.1! with THE former pntronR of THE house, nnd THE..
Portsmouth, Ohio   Saturday, December 31, 1859  839 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 07:31:47 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:31:47 -0500
Subject: That's the way the cookie crumbles (1955)
Message-ID: 

   APS Online just went down for the night.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.
   I had posted 1956 for the crumbling cookie, but it crumbles earlier on Newspaperarchive.  Them's the crumbs.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Independent Record - 11/27/1955
...wnw SCRATCH, 6ETA JOB? BUTTHATS THE WAY THE COOKIE CRUMBLES. IT JUST SO HAPPENS LOOKING..
Helena, Montana   Sunday, November 27, 1955  709 k

Waterloo Daily Courier - 4/5/1945
...Delicious chocolate flavor covered COOKIE CRUMBLES 1 Per Package 83 California..
Waterloo, Iowa   Thursday, April 05, 1945  717 k

Zanesville Signal - 10/5/1956
...mop flops." And now: "That's the way the COOKIE CRUMBLES." We'll be very much..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, October 05, 1956  868 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 08:23:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:23:37 -0500
Subject: Mop Flops & Ball Bounces; Popcorn (verb)
Message-ID: 

MOP FLOPS & BALL BOUNCES

   Cookie crumbling companions.  Neither is in the OED?...The "ball bouncing" phrase appears to be from the Korean War...BALL BOUNCING OT: I wanted Xavier and St. Joes.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Mop flops")
Progress - 3/5/1956
...one of the children had "That's the way the MOP FLOPS" is added to expressions of Eastern..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania   Monday, March 05, 1956  823 k

Zanesville Signal - 10/5/1956
...can call it that, was: "That's the way the MOP FLOPS." And now: "That's the way the..
Zanesville, Ohio   Friday, October 05, 1956  868 k

Great Bend Daily Tribune - 3/18/1956
...school had no objection, home. I he way ihe MOP FLOPS" Plo-Moi' Glib McO I S is added to..
Great Bend, Kansas   Sunday, March 18, 1956  723 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Ball bounces")
Independent Record - 8/10/1952
...Freddy" is being pretty ready. "THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES" denotes luck. "Ricky tick" is.....America. Child's Garden Book A pleasant WAY to introduce chil dren to THE joys of.....assitting. THEy are convinced that THE only WAY that THEir aspectof THEir surgeon here.....voice, action, sight, wit and a debonair WAY about it. THINK of it? Why, THE whole..
Helena, Montana   Sunday, August 10, 1952  784 k

East Liverpool Review - 12/28/1952
...THE soldiers coined "That's THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES." meaning what was foredained to.....New wars, new speech. That's THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES. THEorists Unfrocked By Raymond.....out an alarm. But if he keeps singing THE WAY he has been singing THE last few days, he.....THEy urged THEir comrades to get on THE BALL; girl friends were Mam'selles or..
East Liverpool, Ohio   Sunday, December 28, 1952  713 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 10/30/1942
...bearing on it. In a tight game THE WAY THE BALL BOUNCES is very important. It won't be a.....over THE 500 mark, E. Rasmussen showed THE WAY with 599. A team mate, E. Tess, ranked.....has averaged 6.7 yards in 18 times with THE BALL getting to THE 5-yard line on a 35-yard.....Hinkle, is replacing THE veteran all THE WAY. In addition to gaining representation..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin   Friday, October 30, 1942  945 k

Troy Record - 12/31/1943
...would probably all depend "on which WAY THE BALL BOUNCES." Coach Bill Alexander didn't.....Loop With Snyder and Rafferty showing THE WAY, THE Night Hawks took over first place in.....with Al Akins and Sam Robinson carrying THE BALL and passing. THE Trojans still were.....in 11 and Rafferty had ten to pave THE WAY for THE Night Hawks while McGrath had..
Troy, New York   Friday, December 31, 1943  876 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Georgia Tech Slight Choice Over Tulsans
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 31, 1943. p. 13 (1 page):
   Lowell (Red) Dawson, backfield mentor at Minnesota, wasn't so certain about his choice and said that it would probably all depend "on which way the ball bounces."

That's the Way the Ball Bounces'; The Allied Landings In this phrase is summed up the front-line philosophy of Sgt. Nedzweckas, a veteran of the Korean fighting from Inchon to today's stalemate. The Race to the Yalu The Winter of Retreat The Continuing Stalemate
By GEORGE BARRETT KOREA.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1952. p. SM14 (5 pages)

   WHERE'S MY HOME TOWN?
HERB BRIN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 3, 1952. p. A5 (1 page):
   But mailmen tell us our address is Pasadena 3 because, logically, that's the way the ball bounces.

U. N. KOREA TROOPS DEVELOP A 'LINGO'; Local and Japanese Words Form Part of Pidgin Tongue All Soldiers Understand
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1952. p. 4 (1 page):
   Another more or less fatalistic expression widely used is, "That's the way the ball bounces," meaning that's the way things are and there isn't much that you can do about it.

Well -- That's The Way the Ball Bounces
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 20, 1954. p. C4 (1 page)

---------------------------------------------------------------
POPCORN (VERB)

   "Ball bounces" is here, but this is too great not to share the whole thing.
   Andrew Smith (OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK) insists that I owe him a "turkey dog with ketchup," but I hope that the "popcorn" and "hamburger in the headline" here are equally filling.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Madison Avenue Gobbledygook; 'An Intimate Message From New York'
By Harry C. Kenney. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 11, 1955. p. 16 (1 page):
NEW YORK
   Recently at lunch with a Madison Avenue friend, I remarked that it had long been my desire to "do a piece" on the advertising man's lingo.  He replied: "Why don't you put some grease on the cat and see if it comes back."  Or, go ahead, "Maybe your compass is pointing true north."
   I no more than "dropped this idea down the well to see how big a splash it would make," when I received "over-the-transom," or unsolicited encouragement, in the form of "The Holiday Advertising Man's Diary."
   This booklet clearly illustrated that advertising people are not above smiling at their own foibles.  At the same time they are quick to point out that consumers are buying up the nation's productivity and that the Madison Avenues all over the country are largely responsible for it.
   So, after "swivel-chairing" and "popcorning" the idea around "the mill" for a few days, I decided to join "the boys" and let the King's English fall where it may and have some fun.
   Since the whole thing is "right off the top of my head"--it may not be a good idea--I decided to talk it over with Sir Boss.  But he was "in conference," (no one knew where he was).  But "that's the way the ball bounces."  Sometimes things don't go so good.
   It's too late to ask anyone to "rush in and put out the brush fire" or help, help!  So I'm going ahead under a "side-saddle opinion"--I'd rather not commit myself.  Thus this piece is what is known as a fishing trip or "Let's see what the client thinks."
   Of course Sir Boss could well "blow me out of the tub" for this--you and your ideas--but I took "a long look through the keyhole" and decided it could be "practicalized" into "dramatic plus" with everyone grabbing "the brass ring of success."
   The advertising man is a law-abiding citizen.  He usually owns a nice home, has children, votes, and attends PTA meetings.  But drop into his own Ad Alley and you have entered a new world.
   There are such crisp remarks as "circular-file that one"--drop it in the basket, it's not my idea.  "Better make a mother-in-law survey"--call home and see of anyone is watching television.  "I can't put my finger on it, but I don't think it will go"--I don't understand it.  "Let's get all our ducks in a row"--the client will be here in five minutes!
   Occasionally the top executive of an agency will rush back from a "snowed under" luncheon--one that took two hours--and call his men together on an account.  He has some conclusions: "A growing body of opinion" or two division managers agree that it is time for trying a "guinea pig for size."  Try it out on a small scale  before we get stuck on a big scale.
   Or he will say "Opinion is widely held"--meaning two division managers agree--that it is time to "send up a trial balloon and see which way the wind blows."  We'll get our client in a huddle and see if he is reading the advertising.
   Finally, "Opinion is unanimous."  The President thinks this is the answer.
   If you have an account on Madison Avenue, your product will be properly "kicked around, brooded over, and cross-polinated."  You can be sure there will be enough "hamburger in the headline" or plenty of sizzle.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 08:51:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:51:52 -0500
Subject: Inch/Cinch, Yard/Hard (1947); Lie can go around world... (1854)
Message-ID: 

INCH BY INCH, LIFE'S A CINCH; YARD BY YARD, LIFE IS HARD

   Gregory Titelman's first citation for this is 1992.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Nevada State Journal - 10/14/1960
...guide on the wall: "YARD BY YARD Life HARD. INCH BY INCH It's A CINCH Robert Lehman, the.....from Georqe Solari on the kickoff. on the 3-YARD line, ami raced 97 YARDs lo the TD.....press my lips around his mouth and blow HARD. D. T.: Say. that chest really rises.....j mouth and nose. D. T.: And then you blow HARD? M. D.: No, gently Babies need only..
Reno, Nevada   Friday, October 14, 1960  630 k

Lima News - 5/27/1963
...HOMES INC. iTIt CROFT'S REMIND YOU LIFE IS HARD BY THE YARD BY THE inch It'sV cinch.....area's finest furniture stores resulted. THE store increased in size and scope with.....ThIS finely Yellow Directory EACH WEEK, tot THE Latest That Sipply THE Best Sales Alt I.....bnd parcel of Wierwille service throughout THE years. THE quality reupholstering and..
Lima, Ohio   Monday, May 27, 1963  525 k

Times - 3/20/1969
...Hammond. Women Present Lesson "BY THE YARD, LIFE IS HARD. BY THE inch, it's a was a.....were followed BY a general dIScussion BY THE members. Mrs. Hugh BISbee, President of.....and uncomfortable and THE moTHEr cancelled THE plans she and her husband had for THE.....philosophy for women offered BY Mrs. LouIS Mysse and Mrs. William Guse to..
Hammond, Indiana   Thursday, March 20, 1969  936 k

Lima News - 5/20/1963
...Monograming if CROFT'S REMIND YOU LIFE IS HARD BY THE YARD BY THE inch It's a cinch.....day living not just a status-symbol for THE few. Yes, Jim IS a young, old-timer in.....in past days. He has earned that respect BY doing all Jobs well and at a reasonable.....HOMES We need used models so we're giving THE Biggest Trade-In Allowances Ever Now IS..
Lima, Ohio   Monday, May 20, 1963  528 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Stretch Your Way To Slimness
By Ida Jean Kain. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1947. p. C3 (1 page):
   There's a little jingle that goes: By the yard, life is hard, by the inch, it's a cinch.

   Inching Along Is Best Way to Diet
By Ida Jean Kain. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Apr 23, 1954. p. 61 (1 page):
   THERE'S A BIT of verse that goes: "By the yard, life is hard.  By the inch, it's a cinch."

---------------------------------------------------------------
A LIE CAN GO AROUND THE WORLD AND BACK WHILE THE TRUTH IS LACING UP ITS BOOTS

   Titelman has this from 1859, but it's indicated at that time as an "old proverb."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Republican Compiler - 5/29/1854
...seven leagues while TRUTH is putting her BOOTS ON, "and the Democratic party has found.....United States and the British Provinces, LIE cuiux) out by the previous steamer. THIS.....many verificatiONs of this TRUTH in tho telegraphic reports of the.....asif to survey, when the baitories shots-. ON her and not' ON the truce, boat. ON the 2d..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Monday, May 29, 1854  1097 k


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
The Power of the Affirmative.
Scribner's Monthly (1870-1881). New York: Nov 1872. Vol. VOL. V, Iss. No. 1.; p. 118 (2 pages)
First page:  It is not necessary for truth to worry itself, even if a lie can run a league while it is putting on its boots.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Mar 29 13:06:26 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:06:26 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

From:    "Geoffrey S. Nathan" 

: A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
: Detroit Free Press:

: http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm

: I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of
: the issues we've been ruminating on.

A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.



Harry & David, for example. (Not to mention Davidia Online--which I'm not
sure is actually a brand name--and Davidon Homes.)

And all those Tiffanys being born right now are, I fear, not being named as
much after the jeweler as the annoying 80s singer.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Mar 29 14:36:35 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:35 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <00b601c4158e$ab13d700$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: 

> A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
> interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
> example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
> or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
> names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
> randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
> there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.

I know of at least one woman named "Saran" who is not named after the
plastic. I'm not sure when she was born, but it was definitely before 1953
when "Saran Wrap" hit the market. The OED2 has Dow using "Saran" in a 1940
patent application. This earlier use may predate the woman's birth, but use
of the term before 1953 would be pretty arcane and unlikely to be the source
of her name.

This website (http://www.bubbaboo.com/meaning-of-baby-names.asp?n=SARAN)
ascribes an African origin to "Saran," meaning joy. This is repeated in at
least one other baby names web site. "Saran" was also the name of a 4th
century Irish chief.

I'd go with the "Sarah Ann" explanation, myself.

As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 14:37:03 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:37:03 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913)
In-Reply-To: <267E4DDC.5A523896.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:31 AM -0500 3/29/04, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES
>
>    Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is
>unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand

obviously the source of the "Mom and Pop store"...

LH

>adopted it as the title for a series of cartoons published in the
>New York _Globe_ and other papers."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 14:58:53 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:58:53 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 6:36 AM -0800 3/29/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
>absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
>generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
>I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
>name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.
>
>--Dave Wilton
>   dave at wilton.net
>   http://www.wilton.net

I can support this claim from my own experience in selecting "Meryl"
for my daughter's name in '84, as previously noted.  There is, of
course, a continuum between "X was named after Y" and "X was named
partly as a result of the name being in the air through the celebrity
of Y".  In fact, the post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc evolution of the
expression "to be named after" underlines this.

Larry Horn


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Mon Mar 29 15:30:42 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:30:42 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

David and all:

It's quite possible that kids called "Saran" may "really" be Sarah Ann, but
the parents have a choice. . . "Saran" may sound more "feminine" or "new" to
some parents.  But if you name a child Lexus, as the Detroit Free Press says
seems to be h appening, then I think you are really "calling  up" the brand
name of the car..
Anne G

> : A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
> : Detroit Free Press:
>
> : http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm
>
> : I don't know how long it will be available, but it deals with some of
> : the issues we've been ruminating on.
>
> A similar article ran in the Orlando _Sentinel_ a month or so ago--it's an
> interesting trend, but I have to wonder about some of the assumptions. For
> example, is Saran *actually* derived from Saran Wrap (even unconsciously),
> or is it simply derived from Sarah Ann? After all, there's enough brand
> names out there that you could find a brand name for a huge number of
> randomly chosen names, I'd suspect--I'm sure that somewhere out there
> there's a company called David Industries or somesuch.
>
> 
>
> Harry & David, for example. (Not to mention Davidia Online--which I'm not
> sure is actually a brand name--and Davidon Homes.)
>
> And all those Tiffanys being born right now are, I fear, not being named
as
> much after the jeweler as the annoying 80s singer.
>
> David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 15:36:54 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:36:54 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <001e01c415a2$cc734c50$ee68aa43@anne72onuhyx2f>
Message-ID: 

At 7:30 AM -0800 3/29/04, Anne Gilbert wrote:
>David and all:
>
>It's quite possible that kids called "Saran" may "really" be Sarah Ann, but
>the parents have a choice. . . "Saran" may sound more "feminine" or "new" to
>some parents.  But if you name a child Lexus, as the Detroit Free Press says
>seems to be h appening, then I think you are really "calling  up" the brand
>name of the car..
>Anne G
>
>>  : A propos of our recent discussion there's an article in today's
>>  : Detroit Free Press:
>>
>  > : http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0403/28/a17-105077.htm
>>

First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the Freep?

Second, a general recommendation:  anyone on this list should opt for
"Lexis" over "Lexus".  Or, if it's twins, "Lexis" and "Nexis".

Larry


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 15:54:01 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:54:01 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403291536.AQX89589@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:36 AM 3/29/2004, Larry Horn wrote:

>First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the Freep?

On Sunday mornings we get a combined paper, but strictly speaking it was in
the Detroit News portion of the package. Since during the week we only get
the Freep I subconsciously generalized.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan 
Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology
Associate Professor, Department of English
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

C&IT Phone:  +313 577-1259
English Phone:  +313 577-8621
FAX:  +313 577-0404


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Mar 29 15:47:10 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:47:10 -0500
Subject: Astroturf
In-Reply-To: <1ef.1c943d88.2d98a7ab@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Senator Bentsen was fond of the new definition of astroturf and is
quoted many times in the various archives using before it seems to have
spread. An example a little earlier than Paul's first cite:

Aug. 7, 1985, Washington Post: "A fellow from Texas can tell the
difference between grass roots and Astro Turf," Sen. Lloyd Bentsen
(D-Tex.) said of his mountain of cards and letters from opponents of
the insurance provisions. "This is generated mail."

Grant

On Mar 28, 2004, at 17:11, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> astroturf
> (AS.troh.turf) n. A fake grass-roots movement.
> ?astroturfing pp.
> Earliest Citation:
> Issue-oriented newspaper advertisements featuring clip-out coupons are
> often
> designed to show that the sponsor's goal has grass-roots support. But
> the
> "grass roots is AstroTurf in many cases, artificial turf," says Sen.
> Lloyd
> Bentsen, D-Texas. A case in point, in his view, is the recent ad
> campaign by the
> Distilled Spirits Council of the United States against increases in
> excise taxes
> on liquor. Bentsen reports that a third of the 190 coupons his office
> received
> were altered to express support for tax increases that the coupon says
> could
> raise the price of a bottle of liquor $2 and "put a lot of people in
> the
> beverage alcohol business out of work."
> ?"Playing on astroturf," The National Journal, April 19, 1986


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Mon Mar 29 15:57:24 2004
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:57:24 -0600
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403290958.25406839ac6b@rly-na03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Spellings are also influenced by celebrity names-- my name, Patti, was
spelled that way because of the popularity of singer Patti Page at the
time.  (my Mom even admits that  : )

(And it's NOT "Patricia," a fact which confounds people continually)

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University

laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 6:36 AM -0800 3/29/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>
>
>>As for another name, my mother is named "Shirley," and my grandparents
>>absolutely insisted that unlike all those other "Shirleys" of her
>>generation, she was *not* named after Shirley Temple. In many (most?) cases
>>I don't think that children are directly named after such celebrities. The
>>name is just "in the air" and the parents like the sound of it.
>>
>>--Dave Wilton
>>  dave at wilton.net
>>  http://www.wilton.net
>>
>>
>
>I can support this claim from my own experience in selecting "Meryl"
>for my daughter's name in '84, as previously noted.  There is, of
>course, a continuum between "X was named after Y" and "X was named
>partly as a result of the name being in the air through the celebrity
>of Y".  In fact, the post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc evolution of the
>expression "to be named after" underlines this.
>
>Larry Horn
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58709





Sometimes, we have to bow to the absurd.



Captain Jean-Luc Picard

The Long Ladder


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Mar 29 16:12:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:12:33 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <001e01c415a2$cc734c50$ee68aa43@anne72onuhyx2f>
Message-ID: 

>But if you name a child Lexus ....

This may be a special case. The line of reasoning goes like this. There are
a large number of women named Mercedes, including some (maybe minor)
'celebrities'. 'Clearly' they are named after a prestigious auto brand
(^_^). Then Lexus (resembling Alexis) would be good too ... also Porsche (=
Portia) ... maybe not BMW though.

Google for Lexus + actress, or Porsche + actress, and you can see actresses
with these names (not big mainstream stars maybe). So maybe in some cases
the names are taken from the actresses.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Mar 29 16:44:13 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:44:13 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040329110433.02f0c120@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

> Google for Lexus + actress, or Porsche + actress, and you can see
> actresses
> with these names (not big mainstream stars maybe). So maybe in some cases
> the names are taken from the actresses.
>
> -- Doug Wilson

IMDB searches on the first names "Porsche" and "Lexus" turn up only porn
stars. (Actually, there is one actress named Porsche who appeared in
"Revenge of the Calendar Girls," probably not porn by strict definition but
close enough.)

Also, "Madison" (discussed previously) turns out to be the name of three
different porn actresses.

Perhaps there is some kind of process where porn names go mainstream? Or do
porn stars tend to chose names that are on the cusp of fashionability?

(IMDB = Internet Movie Data Base; http://us.imdb.com; a great resource,
although occasionally inaccurate)

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:02:59 2004
From: chen at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Larissa H. Chen)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:02:59 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <20040329164352.C6563AFAA6@alvin.haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said at
the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
came along - a Lexus.

Larissa


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Mon Mar 29 17:11:22 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:11:22 -0600
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Larissa H. Chen
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:03 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Brand naming kids
>
> A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said at
> the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
> came along - a Lexus.

I'm reminded of a similar joke from A Fish Called Wanda, using the name
Portia.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:19:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:19:55 -0500
Subject: guttural (was: "Astroturf")
In-Reply-To: <200403290502.i2T52M2f028579@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

        [James Landau:]
        >>>

and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural style---as
when he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"

(note on context: the article was about how Kerry's verbose speaking
style---"inability to put a period in his sentences"---was costing him.

The remark about Bush was for comparison of speaking styles and was not
a political comment.)

I can think of several adjectives to use here, starting with "blunt" and
going on to "Gary Cooperesque", but "guttural"?

        <<<

It's not clear from this quote whether the oddness, if any, is in
"guttural" or in "style". Is the writer commenting on Bush's words or on
his voice quality, perhaps in his utterance of the exact locution "dead
or alive"?  If the latter, "guttural" could be quite appropriate -- or
misused, but not novelly.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:38:41 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:38:41 -0500
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913)
Message-ID: 

I have read somewhere that the "Joneses" in question were the wealthy and very respectable early-mid 19thC NYC family, and that the expression was first used by a society dame with ambitions to be thought equally respectable.  Where I read this I do not now remember.

Edith Wharton was a Jones: Edith Newbold Jones.  As we horseplayers would put it, by a Jones, out of a Rhinelander.  You can't get more respectable than that.  One of the biographies of Wharton might give a source.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:31 am
Subject: Keep up with the Joneses (1894?, 1913); Keep your nose clean (1877)

> KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES
>
>   Gregory Titelman writes: "The precise origin of this saying is
> unknown, but in 1913 Arthur R. ("Pop") Momand adopted it as the
> title for a series of cartoons published in the New York _Globe_
> and other papers."
>   I didn't expect to find anything earlier.
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Ohio Democrat - 2/15/1894
> ...and THE Kniselys, when THEy can KEEP UP WITH THE SMITHS and THE
> Joneses. Our.....M. C. A. Lecture Course. March 9th, 1894, "UP THE
> Rhine and Oyer THE Major Henry C. Dane.....Directory shows THE
> names cf 30 .SMITHS, 30 Millers, 29 Joneses, and 28.....that stop
> THE paper WITHout settling UP: Take THE year you were born in and
> add..New Philadelphia, Ohio   Thursday, February 15, 1894  900 k
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN
>
>   Titelman has: "The proverb has been traced back to _Tragedy in
> E Flat_ by L. R. Gribble (1938)."
>
>
> (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
>   FIFTY YEARS AGO; OR, THE CABINS OF THE WEST.; No. 3.
> ROSELLA RICE. Arthur's Illustrated Home Magazine (1873-1879).
> Philadelphia: Mar 1875. Vol. 43, Iss. 3; p. 149 (6 pages)
> (I didn't see it--ed.)
>
>   The World of Humor.
> Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Mar 19, 1881.
> Vol. Vol. 60., Iss. NO. 35.; p. 14 (1 page):
>   A youth invested a dollar and a half in a New York firm to
> discover "How to appear well in society."  The receipt which he
> received by return mail was short, simple, and easily understood:
> "Always keep your nose clean, and don't suck more than one finger
> at a time."
>
>
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Fort Wayne News - 6/21/1919
> ...people's business." 'Advice. Just KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN and
> behave, ..And poverty .won't.....Gabb. "The Greecian replied Mr.
> Gabb. "The NOSE I admire most is the NOSE that is
> kept.....government warehouses "Why scheme about to KEEP this off
> the American market and send it.....who have such a lovely job in
> a nice, CLEAN hotel where we have the esteemed honor..
> Fort Wayne, Indiana   Saturday, June 21, 1919  820 k
>
> Indiana Democrat - 5/31/1877
> ...anil easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't
> suc.k.more than one.....Proprietor. Ing all logs necessary to KEEP
> tlie mills well supplied with logs for.....run the risk. About
> this time my son read YOUR advertisement in our paper, a
> testimony.....VEUET1NE, and I recommend it to my friends. YOUR
> Vegetine ought to be In every family. My..
> Indiana, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1877  791 k
>
> Bridgeport Telegram - 10/1/1918
> ...t worry. 'i, KEEP YOUR feet warm. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN. Eat
> slowly. Do YOUR best. Mind.....JUST ftHD, REAUUY ONE MUST KEEP
> ABREAST OFTHE STVLE5? IT fRoh ME .THAT.....a swig out of a flask
> of his famous x 'NOSE Paint.' %vhat wonld the name of the.....of
> It. WHAT DO VA LUCK.? WORRIED BECAUJCT KEEP INS TULLER R HEALTH
> Anclrew F. Currier..
> Bridgeport, Connecticut   Tuesday, October 01, 1918  773 k
>
> Washington Post - 3/3/1921
> ...catarrh Relief so quickly. Adv. KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN common
> colds are infectious and.....Is cash in Problems. Hew can parents
> best KEEP in touch with their children's school.....colds. Cold
> gisrUJB will not thrive In a NOSE that la kept i lean and
> wholesome. Mayr.....Head-CoUs. Iris Spleadu) Tn one iblnute YOUR
> doffed AOattlll Of en, the air passages..
> Washington, District Of Columbia   Thursday, March 03, 1921  495 k
>
> Herald And Torch Light - 7/18/1877
> ...and easily understood "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and do not
> suck morettaa one.....thc above is jus the thing yon want to KEEP
> YOUR Harness, Boots, Shoes and Buggy.....Think of it If you should
> hereafter whip YOUR child, I wish you could have YOUR..
> Hagerstown, Maryland   Wednesday, July 18, 1877  1003 k
>
> Coshocton Tribune - 3/3/1921
> ...is seriously iJi their home on KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN Common
> colds arp infectious and.....colds. Cold germs will not thrive in
> a NOSE that Is kept CLEAN and wholei some. Mayr.....break up
> colds, too It's comforting to KEEP it handy. Three sizes 35c. 70c,
> ?1.40.....all reliable pharmacists the country over. KEEP in mind
> the name. Dr. Carey's "Marshroot..
> Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, March 03, 1921  598 k
>
> Trenton Evening Times - 11/18/1920
> ...iT-c.rininp by nbnm'nnttii: ;f KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN until 1ft"
> n 'T v fa i No. lOdi B.....r "it to timt .thi K XTwent on With any
> "CLEAN-Up." l.-Birn.if d. ad. It would not Int.....CANDY .You
> .will be satisfied if you, buy YOUR Candy here. We have the
> largest.....town. Just Received The best candies marie, YOUR
> choice can easily be" mads from the..
> Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, November 18, 1920  719 k
>
> Olean Democrat - 8/25/1887
> ...and easily understood: "Always KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN, and don't
> suck more than one.....which will come across the ocean. Leave
> YOUR orders for new Parlor and odd pieces..
> Olean, New York   Thursday, August 25, 1887  679 k
>


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Mar 29 17:40:44 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:40:44 -0800
Subject: Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
Message-ID: 

Frank Rich had this in his Times column yesterday and credited it to
the "Daily Show," but Barry showed that it goes back to 1993 in
Google Groups, and in a Nexis search, it shows up in an article in
the Sydney Morning Herald from July 26, 1991:

Like Keating, Australia at large felt a thrill of excitement and a
chill of dread when the war broke out. Our TV screens beamed urgent
US infoganda into our heads...

A July 6, 1995 article in Marketing used it as both a mass and count noun:

NatWest starts 'infoganda' ads
NatWest is planning to run news releases as ads in the national press
to head off what it sees as 'exaggerated criticism' of issues such as
executive pay and service standards. The 'infoganda'-type ads, which
will target NatWest's staff and core customer base, will also be used
to provide more detailed information about new product launches...
Running infogandas would, he said, give NatWest the chance to present
its side of the case and to communicate more positive news about the
bank.

This is the sort of item that's likely to have been independently
coined several times, particularly given the recent pattern of using
portmanteaux for the names of mixed genres, like  "infotainment" and
"docudrama"  (would these be called "genre benders"?). I wonder how
far back it really goes.

Geoff Nunberg


>Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:57:00 EST
>Reply-To:     American Dialect Society 
>Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List 
>From:         Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Infoganda or Info-ganda (1993)
>Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
>INFO-GANDA--50 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits
>INFOGANDA--14 Google hits, 50 Google Groups hits
>
>
>    "Infoganda" (INFOrmation + propaGANDA) was mentioned on THE DAILY SHOW
>last night at 11 p.m.  Catch the repeat tonight at 7 p.m. if you missed it, on
>Comedy Central.
>    THE DAILY SHOW reported that the government produced its own fake news
>report about Medicare, and the "infoganda" made in on real tv news.
>"Fake news?"
>Jon Stewart asked his audience.  His "senior ethical correspondent" (everyone
>on the show is a senior correspondent) joked that their jobs were being
>threatened.
>    "Infoganda" is not on the Wordspy.  But one of these days it probably will
>be, and...I'll still get no credit.
>
>
>
>
>(GOOGLE GROUPS)
>Re: just for a laugh
>... The "symptoms" page is pretty weak, suggesting that one of the "warning
>signs"
>indicates a problem, but I've seen similar alcohol infoganda. -- -Mike List
>alt.drugs.pot - Dec 3, 1998 by Mike List - View Thread (9 articles)
>
>
>Re: Choosing snow tires
>... technical). They also carry other brands -- and their web page includes
>prices, FAQs, tips, and manufacturers' specs/infoganda. ...
>rec.autos.driving - Nov 13, 1996 by Wilderness Werkes! - View Thread (8
>articles)
>
>
>Re: Chilly Future for Boys (Take Your *CHILD* To Work Day)
>... that rationalized focusing on girls, and relegated boys to stay at school
>where
>they might feed on Ms.-Foundation nationally-sponsored infoganda: "What about
>...
>soc.men - Apr 19, 1995 by Tom Revay - View Thread (112 articles)
>
>
>Re: MS Access - alleged Btrieve importing ability (was: Is MS ...
>... It does have this ability... for Paradox 3.X Of course, I just upgraded
>to 4.0
>a few weeks ago, and none of the Access Infoganda mentioned this limitation.
>...
>comp.os.ms-windows.apps - Feb 2, 1993 by Philip Bohannon - View Thread (4
>articles)


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Mar 29 19:35:27 2004
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:35:27 -0500
Subject: guttural (was: "Astroturf")
Message-ID: 

Is it remotely possible that the writer was thinking of "gutter" language in writing "gutturall"?
- Allan Metcalf

>        [James Landau:]
>        >>>
>
> and now for a very odd usage:  "[President Bush's] guttural
> style---as
> when he said he wanted Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive'"


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Mar 29 21:18:56 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:18:56 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
Message-ID: 

When I was a kid, Megan was around, altho it was not common--this was in the late sixties and early seventies.  However, there were two pronunciations (I'm not sure Beverly's two pronunciations are the ones I remember): the one with [e] and one with [i:], i.e. [mi:g at n]  (meegun), which I never hear anymore.  I remember having to ask girls which pronunciation they went by.
The name that has intrigued me the most is 'Joshua.'  When I was a kid, NO ONE, abolutely no one, had that name. It was a name that only pioneers would have had.  It was so old fashioned that I couldn't even conceive anyone having it today.  Well, in the last 10-15 years, so many of my students have had it, I can't even begin to count them.  Why its popularity all of a sudden?
Fritz

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/25/04 12:07PM >>>
"Megan" is also variously spelled, I've noticed, sometimes with an 'h' (as
Meghan) and sometimes not.  I don't know if there's a correlation with the
tendency to lax the front vowel or not, but I always have to ask my
students, "Do you say [meg at n] or [mEg at n]?"  And then I have to explain why
I asked the question, which leads into phonetics and a nice lesson on IPA.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Mar 29 20:32:03 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:32:03 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of Allegra--way
before the medicinal use...


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Mar 29 23:21:23 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:21:23 -0800
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040329105121.01b22c68@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

And if you'll read all the way to the bottom of the piece, you'll see that
it isn't actually FROM either Detroit paper, viz.:

"Froma Harrop writes for the Providence Journal. Her column is distributed
by Creators Syndicate"

--On Monday, March 29, 2004 10:54 AM -0500 Geoff Nathan 
wrote:

> At 10:36 AM 3/29/2004, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>> First, a general question--wasn't this in the Detroit News, not the
>> Freep?
>
> On Sunday mornings we get a combined paper, but strictly speaking it was
> in the Detroit News portion of the package. Since during the week we only
> get the Freep I subconsciously generalized.
>
> Geoff
> Geoffrey S. Nathan 
> Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology
> Associate Professor, Department of English
> Wayne State University
> Detroit, MI, 48202
>
> C&IT Phone:  +313 577-1259
> English Phone:  +313 577-8621
> FAX:  +313 577-0404



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Mar 30 02:06:13 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:06:13 -0800
Subject: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
In-Reply-To: <200403291314.1b845b2q83NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: 

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
>Subject:      Re: Why name "Madison" so popular for girls?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>When I was a kid, Megan was around, altho it was not common--this
>was in the late sixties and early seventies.  However, there were
>two pronunciations (I'm not sure Beverly's two pronunciations are
>the ones I remember): the one with [e] and one with [i:], i.e.
>[mi:g at n]  (meegun), which I never hear anymore.  I remember having
>to ask girls which pronunciation they went by.

In Australia it's mostly pronounced meegun, I think.  In the US
mostly maygun - or such has been my experience.

>The name that has intrigued me the most is 'Joshua.'  When I was a
>kid, NO ONE, abolutely no one, had that name. ...

I think Biblical names ebb and flow but never really disappear -
though granted it would be hard to find an Ebeneezer nowadays.  I was
quite surprized when my cousin named her younger son Boaz.

Rima


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 02:48:40 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Nathan)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:48:40 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

>Poster:       David Bergdahl 
>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
>
>A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of
Allegra--way
>before the medicinal use...

The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
name:

Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
And Edith with golden hair.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
C&IT/English
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202
(313) 877-1259 (C&IT)
(313) 877-8621 (English)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 03:21:48 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:21:48 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <43125d1e.28f77a1f.8166b00@mirapointms3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:48 PM -0500 3/29/04, Geoffrey Nathan wrote:
>  >Poster:       David Bergdahl 
>>Subject:      Re: Brand naming kids
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------
>>
>>A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of
>Allegra--way
>>before the medicinal use...
>
>The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
>Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
>name:
>
>Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
>And Edith with golden hair.
>
Allegra was also the name of Lord Byron's daughter (1817-1822), who
had a short but eventful life, and was named way WAY before the
medicine.

Larry Horn


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 30 06:21:08 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:21:08 EST
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good Deed
Message-ID: 

YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH
    
(OED)(This quotation is not here)
scratch, n.1
   b. The starting-point in a handicap of a competitor who receives no odds; 
sometimes colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also fig.; esp. in phr. 
from scratch, from a position of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., 
from nothing. 

  1867 Athlete for 1866, 9 W. Collett, scratch 1. 1876 Bicycle Jrnl. 18 Aug. 
7/1 Mr. Tom Sabin, of the Coventry Bicycle Club, has won, during last week, 
three races from scratch. 1886 Field 31 July 182/2 In the [lawn tennis] match 
between Messrs. G. Butler (owes 15) and E. A. Butler (scratch), the odd set 
again had to be resorted to. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 454 A poor foreign immigrant who 
started scratch as a stowaway and is now trying to turn an honest penny. 1936 
Economist 2 May 233/1 Nazi Germany, starting her rapid re-armament ?from scratch
? in 1933, was fortunate enough to have a surplus capacity in all sections of 
her heavy industries. 1939 ?G. ORWELL? Coming up for Air II. v. 103 We'd no 
fishing tackle of any kind, not even a pin or a bit of string. We had to start 
from scratch. 1953 S. KAUFFMANN Philanderer v. 77 He took one look at her and 
thought: If I want that, I must begin all over again right from scratch. 1957 
L. F. R. WILLIAMS State of Israel 53 Another branch of communications which 
has been built up from scratch to a degree of efficiency. 1962 Guardian 21 Mar. 
2/5 The whole Treasury block could..have been rebuilt from scratch for the 
money. 1978 Peace News 25 Aug. 7/2 The daily routine was a crash programme of 
tuition provided by civilians, mainly Russian or other Slavic emigr?s, in 
Russian from scratch to A-level standard, which was achieved in 10 months. 1979 
Fortune 29 Jan. 77 NASA is not exactly starting from scratch out there in space; 
it is building on promising experiments done on prior space flights.
  
  
FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH--57 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits
SALAD + FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH--2 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
      
  
   It's in today's NEW YORK POST.  I'm surprised this is not more popular.
  
  
http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/22010.htm
But even those pathetic photo spreads are innocence itself when compared to 
her new, and low-as-you-can-go/desperate-as-it-gets TV porn flick for USA, 
"Call Me: The Rise and Fall of Heidi Fleiss." This high-school level "bio-pic" is 
so bad it's even an insult to Heidi Fleiss. 

It's not like you can't make great chicken salad from chicken scratch - 
remember all those great Amy Fisher flicks? 
   
---------------------------------------------------------------
NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED
    
   I had cited 1949, but that Newspaperarchive cite is from 1994.  Clare 
Boothe Luce said it (1957), but it looks like she didn't coin it.
  

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   RISING NEUTRALISM A HURDLE FOR NATO; Feeling of Less Urgency Also Is 
Symptomatic of Problems Facing West's Defense ANTI - AMERICANISM GROWS Teamwork Has 
Decreased at SHAPE Since Eisenhower Left as Commander 
By HANSON W. BALDWIN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 
13, 1953. p. 8 (1 page):
   As a Dutch official expressed it, "no good deed will ever remain 
unpunished."
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
News - 1/27/1953  
...he ascribes to a Dutch official, "NO GOOD DEED will ever remain 
-UNPUNISHED.....been much quoted as saying that what was GOOD for General Motors was 
GOOD for the.....one because for i years I thought what was GOOD for irinecl Ull 
Charge the country was.....rtyie and the lowest price. consistent with GOOD 
work. Entered at the postoffice at..
Frederick, Maryland   Tuesday, January 27, 1953  1032 k    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Washington Scene ....; A Solo Renunciation 
By George Dixon. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1957. p. A11 (1 page):
   Then, apparently feeling that she (Clare Boothe Luce--ed.)  was being too 
sparing of the vinegar, she epigrammicked:
   "It just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished."
  
Letters To the Editor
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 16, 1960. p. 14 
(1 page):
   Your conclusion can be reinforced with an old Swedish aphorism, "No good 
deed is ever left unpunsihed."
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO
    
(OED, revised)
36. colloq. monkey see, monkey do: commenting (freq. contemptuously) on an 
instance of unthinking imitation, or of learning or performing by rote. 

  1934 Z. N. HURSTON Jonah's Gourd Vine i. 24 You jes started tuh talk dat 
foolishness since you been hangin' 'round ole Mimms. Monkey see, monkey do. 1967 
E. PARTRIDGE Dict. Slang (ed. 6) Suppl. 1250/2 Monkey see, monkey do!, a 
Canadian (and U.S.) c[atch] p[hrase] ?addressed to one who imitates the actions of 
another, or as a warning not to do such and such because someone (usually a 
child) might follow suit?. 1978 Maledicta 1977 1 273 Monkey see; monkey do. 
Elaborate precautions of Parisian couturiers could not curtail the spy. 1986 
Video Today Apr. 57/1 Buttons only identified by symbols so read instructions 
carefullya case of monkey see monkey do. 1995 Financial Post (Nexis) 22 June III. 
51 It's no secret the monkey-see-monkey-do NHL is hell-bent on transforming 
itself into the NBA.
     
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO"
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 22, 1923. p. 
II4 (1 page):
   The old saying of "monkey see, monkey do" is excellently exemplified here.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Mansfield News - 1/4/1920  
...They raise the oa the bly MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO. vegetable ami mineral 
accretions..
Mansfield, Ohio   Sunday, January 04, 1920  718 k    

---------------------------------------------------------------
LIGHTNING NEVER STRIKES TWICE IN THE SAME PLACE
      
   Gregory Titelman writes: "The proverb has been traced back to P. H. Myers 
(1857)."

  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Tioga Eagle - 5/31/1855  
...may aive him a '-all. No mistake this time, LIGHTNING NEVER strikes one 
tree Prict pr Ton..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, May 31, 1855  939 k    

Agitator - 3/1/1855  
...rnay give him a call. No mistake this time. LIGHTNING NEVER strikes oho 
tree tJicie.....in the Art of Writing such as has NEVER before taken place, and 
will qualify..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, March 01, 1855  794 k    

Tioga Eagle - 1/18/1855  
...tha.t may him a CHII. No misiakc this time, LIGHTNING NEVER strikes one 
tree twite. Price..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania   Thursday, January 18, 1855  860 k    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
LOCK 'EM UP AND THROW AWAY THE KEY
  
   Gregory Titelman doesn't give a date; the first citation is 1989.  I had 
previously posted 1915.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Daily Herald - 7/23/1901  
...Brazil I'd put him in THE bastile and THROW AWAY THE KEY. New Orleans 
TimesDemocrat.....to THE extent of a million or two he THROWs AWAY THE pocketplece 
he carried for luck and.....and perseverance. THE man 'who gives AWAY a 
million dollars has ceased to be a.....THE iron down with THE baud to give THE 
necessary polish to THE surface of THE..
Delphos, Ohio   Tuesday, July 23, 1901  853 k    
 
Trenton Evening Times - 6/22/1899  
...dc clares THE emperor might as well THROW AWAY THE KEY to THE door. 111 IM 
III 4M IN Ml.....THE change in THE commercial conditions of THE past two 
years, and with THE diversity of.....next month, and Trenton should sec that THE 
delegates get THE best in THE house. THE.....of THE few men who can keep THEir 
ear to THE ground and THE'ir mouth to THE megaphone..
Trenton, New Jersey   Thursday, June 22, 1899  539 k    
 
Burlington Weekly Hawkeye - 4/25/1863  
...afraid to nab a Judge1, lock him up, THROW AWAY THE KEY, and tell him to 
go tc Old Harry.....or not. "You ought not. to THROW AWAY THE uountrv because 
you don't like THE.....in THE war. Secondly: T must i.ot THROW AWAY my 
Government be cause I don't .like.....do not i THE ruler. Abraham Lincoln must s AWAY 
after a willie; but THE goveriint must..
Burlington, Iowa   Saturday, April 25, 1863  856 k    

New Oxford Item - 3/25/1892  
...vrith being. Juut lock it up and THROW AWAY THE KEY, and it will be found 
as.....Medicine Co., Lynn, Mass-., are giving AWAY a beautiful illustrated, 
book, to Health.....able to resist THE attacks of disease or THE shock of 
injuries and operations than.....while on THE lower arm it points upward, THE 
apparent purpose being to shed THE raio..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania   Friday, March 25, 1892  672 k    

New Era - 2/22/1899  
...icy trunk, yon see, And lock it, and THROW AWAY THE KEY'11 Peai-son's 
Weekly. Cure.....Boy's home I can beat my vray through THE AWAY a, vray till I'm 
out o' breath, To THE.....THE Toy Drum said: 4ilrve a hardened head. AWAY on my 
sticks I'll go Fi'Om this lev home.....warm, and gives birth tc THE idea that 
THE internal fires of THE earth arc to THE..
Humeston, Iowa   Wednesday, February 22, 1899  849 k    

Oshkosh Northwestern - 1/13/1883  
...50 cents. Tee case was locked and we THROW AWAY THE KEY, I happened to be 
THE Viking for.....when THE walls fell, had started to THROW up his arms when 
THE hot bricks rained.....THE hardened workmen to recoil and run AWAY from 
sheer sickness and terror. THE.....in THE box with THE places. A hotel KEY 
.brought out with THE remains showed that..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Saturday, January 13, 1883  710 k    

Edwardsville Intelligencer - 8/8/1899  
...Litehfield citixons say THEy will THROW AWAY THE KEY and everything will 
go during.....to assist in building up THE town and THROW cold water on THE 
efforts of those who.....secured from wholesale dealers to be given AWAY, prizes, 
and still more are to come.....THE federal treasury for THE first month of 
THE present fiscal year. One would think THE..
Edwardsville, Illinois   Tuesday, August 08, 1899  695 k    


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Mar 30 12:36:53 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:36:53 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

From:    "Larissa H. Chen" 

: A cousin of mine named her daughter Alexis (b. 1996), which she said
: at the time was because that was what she couldn't have once the baby
: came along - a Lexus.

I still remember a class where I was teaching about different kinds of
aphasias, and didn't make the connection until afterward that the woman in
the class named Alexia had a rather unfortunate name for a Lx major.

 I'm more used to killing threads than spawning much
(non-argumentative) discussion--nice change. 

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Mar 30 17:11:33 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:11:33 -0500
Subject: "Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease"
In-Reply-To: <200403201642.i2KGg7te022170@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

The expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is often said to derive
from a supposed poem by humorist Josh Billings, ca. 1870.  Bartlett's
Familiar Quotations gives the quotation as follows:

The wheel that squeaks the loudest
Is the one that gets the grease.

Bartlett's titles the poem "The Kicker" but gives no dating.  I have been
unable to find any such poem.  Can Barry or Sam or anyone else shed any
light on the origins or earliest findable usage of this expression?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Mar 30 17:39:15 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:39:15 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <200403300500.i2U50E2f010487@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

        [David Bergdahl:]
A friend of mine's kid--20 yrs old-- has the middle name of Allegra--way
before the medicinal use...

        [Geoffrey Nathan:]
The name Allegra occurs in Longfellow's poem 'The Children's
Hour', where he talks about his (real) daughter with that
name:

Grave Alice, laughing Allegra
And Edith with golden hair.

        [Laurence Horn:]
Allegra was also the name of Lord Byron's daughter (1817-1822), who
had a short but eventful life, and was named way WAY before the
medicine.

        <<<<
No surprise in any of these, especially the Longfellow, when you take
into account that "allegra" is Italian for 'cheerful', adj.f.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Mar 30 20:43:18 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:43:18 EST
Subject: Brand naming kids
Message-ID: 

In a message dated  Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:36:35 -0800,  Dave Wilton
 writes:

>  I know of at least one woman named "Saran" who is not named after the
>  plastic. I'm not sure when she was born, but it was definitely before 1953
>  when "Saran Wrap" hit the market. The OED2 has Dow using "Saran" in a 1940
>  patent application. This earlier use may predate the woman's birth, but use
>  of the term before 1953 would be pretty arcane and unlikely to be the
source
>  of her name.
>
>  This website (http://www.bubbaboo.com/meaning-of-baby-names.asp?n=SARAN)
>  ascribes an African origin to "Saran," meaning joy. This is repeated in at
>  least one other baby names web site. "Saran" was also the name of a 4th
>  century Irish chief.

I once worked with a black woman named "Saranne Dix".  She was born sometime
between 1945 and 1950.  Unfortunately I never asked her about the origin of
her given name.

She was the victim of a classic case of miscommunication.  She owned a boat.
One day a coworker took down a phone message "Saranne, please call your
marina.  Urgent".  Then he thought, "there's only one reason your marina needs you
in  a hurry" and gratuitously added to the message "Your boat sank".  Poor
Saranne almost had a heart attack, but fortunately it turned out the marina had
"merely" lost her rent check.

Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer Gottlieb
Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named "the Mercedes
Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one founded by
Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic Age of
American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page 217].

The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey, who is
not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in 1950.
(Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).

I seriously doubt that the writer Ford Maddox Ford or the comedian Ford
Sterling (of the Keystone Kops) was named after the automobile.  I don't know about
"Chevy Chase" (is that his real name or a pseudonym?), which could be from
the Washington DC suburb of Chevy Chase, Maryland.

"Boaz" or "Boas" is the surname of a well-known anthropologist and also of a
mathermatician (the latter revealed that "Nicolas Bourbaki" did not exist,
only to have the mathematicians who wrote under that pseudonym claim that Boas
did not exist.)

      - Jim Landau

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.


From nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET  Tue Mar 30 22:20:12 2004
From: nathanielt at AIRPOST.NET (Nathaniel Thomas)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:20:12 -0500
Subject: Brand naming kids
In-Reply-To: <20040330204327.C581A8D640D@mail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: 

Well, there is the love interest of "The Count of Monte Cristo" by
Alexandre Dumas who is named Mercedes.  So perhaps girls named Mercedes
prior to the car company becoming prominent were named after her.  I've
no idea if it was a traditional or popular name anywhere, though
perhaps in Monte Cristo :-) (haven't read the book, I just remembered
the reference from "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" in one of
Stephen Dedalus' fantasies, and quickly checked the Gutenberg version
of "Count")

Nathaniel Thomas
nathanielt at airpost.net

On Mar 30, 2004, at 3:43 PM, James A. Landau wrote:

> Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer
> Gottlieb
> Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named
> "the Mercedes
> Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one
> founded by
> Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic
> Age of
> American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page
> 217].
>
> The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey,
> who is
> not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
> 1950.
> (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Mar 30 22:52:03 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:52:03 -0800
Subject: Mercedes (Was: Brand naming kids)
In-Reply-To: <6951EA0C-8298-11D8-AB19-000A27B3213A@airpost.net>
Message-ID: 

As far as I know, it's a fairly common name in Spain, and probably
elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world as well.  I've known one Spanish
woman named Mercedes, and I've heard of others.  There's certainly nothing
new about it.  According to my old AHD, it's a shortened form of Maria de
Mercedes, 'Mary of Mercies'.

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:20 PM -0500 Nathaniel Thomas
 wrote:

> Well, there is the love interest of "The Count of Monte Cristo" by
> Alexandre Dumas who is named Mercedes.  So perhaps girls named Mercedes
> prior to the car company becoming prominent were named after her.  I've
> no idea if it was a traditional or popular name anywhere, though
> perhaps in Monte Cristo :-) (haven't read the book, I just remembered
> the reference from "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" in one of
> Stephen Dedalus' fantasies, and quickly checked the Gutenberg version
> of "Count")
>
> Nathaniel Thomas
> nathanielt at airpost.net
>
> On Mar 30, 2004, at 3:43 PM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>> Also, about the name "Mercedes":  The German automobile pioneer
>> Gottlieb
>> Daimler  set up an automobile company aaround 1890, which he named
>> "the Mercedes
>> Company" after his daughter.  Eventually his company merged with one
>> founded by
>> Karl Benz to create Mercedes-Benz.  [L. Sprague de Camp _The Heroic
>> Age of
>> American Invention_ Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1961, no ISBN, page
>> 217].
>>
>> The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey,
>> who is
>> not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
>> 1950.
>> (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Tue Mar 30 23:01:59 2004
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:01:59 -0600
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?
Message-ID: 

(Hoping I didn't trigger anyone's email filter)

I don't have access to any of the wonderful books I see cited here, and a
friend asked me where this phrase might originated.  I didn't find anything
in the ADS email archives.

Thanks for any leads,

Bill Le May
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Mar 30 23:11:18 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:11:18 -0500
Subject: Ford Maddox Ford
Message-ID: 

Ford Maddox Hueffner changed his name during WW1 when anti-German sentiment
wracked Brits as well as Americans.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Mar 30 23:25:10 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:25:10 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <1ec.1c95435a.2d9a6bd4@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH

I've never heard this presumably euphemistic version with "scratch". Is the
noun "scratch" supposed to have a meaning here, or is it just something
that (sort of) goes with chicken for bowdlerization purposes?

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Mar 30 23:37:11 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:37:11 -0500
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Le May" 
Subject: Origin of "p*ss and vinegar"?


> I don't have access to any of the wonderful books I see cited here, and a
> friend asked me where this phrase might originated.  I didn't find
anything
> in the ADS email archives.

Then you should bookmark a site--
http://alt-usage-english.org/concordance_interface.shtml

This wonderful work has an index which will link you in many cases to online
answers on words and phrases, in this case
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000308 Jesse Sheidlower's
old office.  And your answer.

The other sources on that main site that are trustworthy are
http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.php , member Michael Quinion's great
work, http://www.wordorigins.org/homepage.htm#search member Dave Wilton's
equally fascinating page, and http://www.word-detective.com/index.html, the
home of member Evan Morris, another solid page writer.
I hesitate to tell you to trust everything you find on  pages other than
those four.    If I overlooked anyone, I apologize.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 31 00:32:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:32:07 EST
Subject: Pep & Vinegar (1915), Pickles & Vinegar (no "piss")
Message-ID: 

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000308
The trouble with discussing this phrase is the "shedding light on it" part.
The Oxford English Dictionary's earliest citation for it is from its 1942
mention in The American Thesaurus of Slang by Berrey & Van Den Bark, but we have a
citation in our files from Steinbeck's 1938 The Grapes of Wrath: "'How ya
keepin' yaself?' 'Full a piss an' vinegar.'" If Steinbeck had a character use a
phrase in speech and didn't gloss it, then the phrase had to have already been
familiar for some time before he recorded it. There are also plenty of
citations going forward from that date, all the way up to Bart's declaration in a 1994
episode of The Simpsons: "I'm full of piss and vinegar."

However, we still haven't turned up anything earlier than the Steinbeck
citation, which makes it hard to know where the phrase comes from. There is
certainly a similar expression with the identical meaning, "full of beans," which
goes back to 1854. There's an expression "full of piss and wind" which means
'full of blustering talk; pretentious' that dates to 1922. There's also Kyne's
"He's full of pep and vinegar" (They Also Serve, 1927) that may indicate a
euphemistic treatment of "piss"; certainly the sense of vinegar alone meaning
'vitality' was already part of campus slang in the 1920s.

It could just be that the 1920s provenances of vinegar meaning 'vim',"piss
and wind," and "pep and vinegar" all combine to mean that some slick-haired
co-ed came up with the combination of pungent liquids in the expression. In fact,
they've been combined before: there is an expression "to piss vinegar" that
goes back to 1602, meaning 'to be miserly'. This gave rise to the 18th-century
"vinegar-pisser," a 'miser'. If there is any connection between these meanings
and piss-and-vinegar vitality, it seems exactly the sort that a college
student might make.

Wendalyn


   We have earlier than 1927 for "pep and vinegar."  It's at least from 1915.
 (Also, search for the full "pepper and vinegar.")
   I would mention the word combination "pickles and vinegar."  A few
citations are given below.  It may not be relevant, but it's another "p-- and
vinegar."


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Fort Wayne News - 11/30/1915
...west minois for a lot of youngsters with PEP AND VINEGAR. THE PROTESTANT
LEAGUE.....Mr. AND Mrs. W. H. Brindle AND Miss Dot AND Harold Zwissig spent
Thursday with Mr.....Do well. Mr. AND Mrs. A. C. Baker AND Mr. AND Mrs. J. O.
Logan spent Thursday with Mr.....Bloomington, Ind. Mr. AND Mrs. Myrtle Woods AND
Miss Ruby Meyerg spent Saturday AND..
Fort Wayne, Indiana Tuesday, November 30, 1915  927 k

Woodland Daily Democrat - 1/11/1919
...AND OverlAND joy cars is brim full of PEP AND VINEGAR ouar prospects for
1919, AND the.....Travis ant family AND Mrs. Jas. W. Travis AND son, Mr. AND
Ifrs. C. Li. Lowrey, Mr. AND.....about face, be happy that victory is ours, AND
get our full share of business AND.....services at 11. This is the roll-call
AND election of officers day, AND a full..
Woodland, California Saturday, January 11, 1919  523 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 11/24/1928
...monkey" suits --everybody is. bubbling with PEP AND VINEGAR." "OEddie"
iCotal'sleg injury.....AND a good punch. Monte seldom could AND a solid blow
while the German hit" hard.....for his fights. .AND quit training, boxing AND road
work. Wisconsin AND Purdue are about.....will bear burden of ball totting
again AND be assisted Gehrman AND Jacobs will other..
Appleton, Wisconsin Saturday, November 24, 1928  1195 k

clearfield_progress_ - 5/23/1925
...Drive Of American Legion Needs Some PEP AND VINEGAR The present membership
drive.....ed. Every man AND woman who has be added PEP to start this final
lap, cles are hard.....probable that he would risk coming to earth AND plant a
flag AND claim the lAND in the.....region. Authorities well versed in weather
AND sea conditions AND the frozen north..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Saturday, May 23, 1925  704 k

Woodland Daily Democrat - 3/4/1919
...county baseball i league would arouse more PEP AND VINEGAR than all the
Coast AND Trolt.....team to play here, there or anywhere. Harry AND Bill Holmes
AND Dewey Killian, champion.....Esparto victory; Frank Nlssen, Tom McCants AND
Paul Stephens, guards invincible; AND.....may spring a Willie Ritchie on the
boys AND come-back, although he officially AND..
Woodland, California Tuesday, March 04, 1919  504 k



(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Stevens Point Daily Journal - 4/16/1881
...Good coffee for 15 ceats at Stone's. Good PICKLES AND VINEGAR at Stone's.
Good apples.....nuw maple sugar at Stone's. Late at Mixed PICKLES by the pint,
quart or gal lon. Choice.....pied by Potter Bro.'s, grocery AND boot AND sooe
store AND H 'B Martin's drug AND.....acres, Lyman. Elizabeth G., Hiram li.
AND Hettie M. Little AND Ella N. AND Lizzie L..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, April 16, 1881  750 k

Stevens Point Journal - 9/15/1906
...been ascertained by ment that ft dier of PICKLES AND VINEGAR, If persisted
in Ions.....AND a girl aged one AND one-half years, AND then went to the home
of a neighbor AND.....on my ehest AND body AND extend upwards AND downwards,
so that my neck AND face were.....denatured alcohol costs 20 cents a gallon,
AND it is used for beat, light AND motors..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, September 15, 1906  792 k

Gettysburg Compiler - 7/15/1884
...miXi AND' put in tiiu cucumbers AND PICKLES AND VINEGAR to getlier, but.
will.....tho PICKLES an large they may bo quartered, AND tin VINEGAR will
strike through them.....AND put them in a jar, AND turn on the VINEGAR. Take. half
as ninny sugar its.....of inino tells me Urn she prcparc-s all PICKLES for the
table AND puts them up in..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Tuesday, July 15, 1884  1309 k

Sandusky Star - 9/14/1904
...Tea, bread AND butter, cold meats, PICKLES AND VINEGAR ad lib. SUPPER AT
8. Gruel, bread.....vegetable, suet pudding AND on Thursdays AND Sundays plum
pudding AND apples AND.....hydants at Bennett Bros.' Lumber Co., Depot AND Camp
streets, AND Mills AND Adams streets.....of rear entries AND alleyways,
electric AND other wires over roofs, AND generally..
Sandusky, Ohio Wednesday, September 14, 1904  564 k

Holland Evening Sentinel - 5/16/1962
...Heinz of HollAND has been manufacturing i PICKLES AND VINEGAR in this
"Tulip" community.....selling tomatoes. Americans are eating more PICKLES AND
pickle relishes than ever before.....to the cucumbers, of course, are the VINEGAR,
salt, sugar, AND the spices AND.....In recent years the sale of PICKLES AND
relishes has risen five times as..
Holland, Michigan Wednesday, May 16, 1962  888 k

Nevada State Journal - 4/22/1942
...Tarragon Leaves used to flavor salads, PICKLES AND VINEGAR, Testing
Reveals Milk.....AND meat sauces, Muslard Seed used for PICKLES. Mint, Used lo
flavor meal sauces AND.....Dill Seed AND leaves used in making dill PICKLES, in
omelets AND salads.....AND oil fuels, grass AND brush near barns AND haystacks,
farm equipment, AND..
Reno, Nevada Wednesday, April 22, 1942  846 k


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 31 01:02:11 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:02:11 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040330181828.02f14750@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

>>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH
>
>I've never heard this presumably euphemistic version with "scratch". Is the
>noun "scratch" supposed to have a meaning here, or is it just something
>that (sort of) goes with chicken for bowdlerization purposes?
>
>-- Doug Wilson
~~~~~~~~~
Are you assuming that _shit_ is the hidden meaning here?  "Chicken scratch"
refers to chicken feed  which is spread on the ground and for which the
chickens scratch.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 31 01:40:28 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:40:28 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Are you assuming that _shit_ is the hidden meaning here?  "Chicken scratch"
>refers to chicken feed  which is spread on the ground and for which the
>chickens scratch.

Thanks. I learn something every day (and forget two things, probably). Now
I see "scratch" = "scratch feed" in some (not all) large dictionaries, and
DARE even shows an example of "chicken scratch".

To this city boy, "chicken scratch" usually refers to handwriting.

I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit". I think I've heard it
once or twice with something else too, but I can't remember what, maybe
"feathers" or so, not "scratch".

-- Doug Wilson


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Wed Mar 31 03:31:17 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:31:17 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:40:28 -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" 
writes:

> I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit".

"Boys, I may not know much, but I know chicken shit from chicken salad."
LBJ talking about Nixon's Checkers speech, 24 September 1952.

I have that taped to my computer monitor, along with "dir a: > prn" and "
"Klaatu barada nikto."  Eclectic.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Mar 31 04:15:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:15:40 -0500
Subject: "Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>The wheel that squeaks the loudest
>Is the one that gets the grease.

I find it quoted this way in a newspaper from 1913.

If one does a digital search of Billings' work, one must be careful of
Billings' grotesque spellings: "wheel" is safe, I think, but I don't know
how he would have spelled "skweeks" or "greese" ... or "kikker". I searched
what I could find on-line, with no luck.

-- Doug Wilson


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Mar 31 05:02:35 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:02:35 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20origin=20of=20slur-?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-horizontal=20Oriental=20vagina?=
Message-ID: 

My father came back from China after WWII and indicated that this myth was
very much alive among sailors in the early 1940s. How much farther back it goes,
I don't know.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Mar 31 14:37:55 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:37:55 -0500
Subject: Ford Madox Ford
Message-ID: 

David Bergdahl  writes:

>Ford Maddox Hueffner changed his name during WW1 when anti-German
>sentiment wracked Brits as well as Americans.

That's "Madox", with one 'd'.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Mar 31 14:42:58 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:42:58 -0500
Subject: Mercedes (Was: Brand naming kids)
In-Reply-To: <200403310503.i2V53Y2f023934@unagi.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jim Landau advises:

The only other woman I know of named "Mercedes" is Mercedes Lackey, who
is not a porn star but rather a science fiction writer who was born in
1950. (Aside to Mark Mandel---she is also a filksinger and filk writer).

        ======

Nicknamed "Misty" among fen. I've tried her books a couple times.  Some
people can't put 'em down; I can't pick 'em up. She's collaborated with
Leslie Fish (salaam! salaam!) on a number of good songs, though:  lyric
by Lackey, music by Fish. We often call 'em "Lackeyfish". That goes
along with at least one other "X/Fish" pair term: Kipplefish, where X =
Kipling. Leslie's done a whole volume / tape of those, titled "Cold
Iron".

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
   http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Mar 31 15:47:01 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:01 -0500
Subject: Chicken Salad from Chicken Scratch; Monkey See/Do; No Good
 Deed
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040330203000.02f16610@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

(from Bapopik:
>YOU CAN'T MAKE CHICKEN SALAD FROM CHICKEN SCRATCH<)
~~~~~~~~
 - Doug Wilson writes:
>
>I've almost always heard the aphorism with "shit". I think I've heard it
>once or twice with something else too, but I can't remember what, maybe
>"feathers" or so, not "scratch".
 ~~~~~~~~~~
Since this is a play on the frequently-used expression to "make [something]
from scratch," (i.e., make it from basic ingredients instead of a
packaged, prepared mix, or other dodge)  it loses its point by substituting
"feathers" or "shit" or "feed."
A. Murie


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Fri Mar  5 03:03:47 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:03:47 -0500
Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945)
Message-ID: 

Barry Popik wrote:

>Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest
>Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37:
>
>_AN ENDLESS TALE_
>
>"That's tough!"
>"What's tough?"
>"Life."
>"What's life?"
>"A magazine."
>"Where d'you get it?"
>"Drugstore."
>"What's it cost?"
>"A dime."
>"shucks, I only got a nickel."
>"That's tough.
>"What's tough?" (etc.)

This sequence is part of my father's repertoire (done with my mother,
though she never initiated a routine), and I have always assumed it came
from his childhood (b.1924), probably from a 1930s radio show.  I'll try to
remember to ask him if he knows a source (radio or otherwise).  Just now,
the only similar (2-person) routine of his which comes to mind is a pretty
trivial one, which he  would launch into (expecting my mother to follow)
whenever someone happened to utter the number 73 (or 74) out loud.  My
father would quickly follow up with the next number (say, 74), after which
my mother would say the next number (75), then my father would call '76!'
and my mother would respond, 'That's the Spirit!' (starting from an
original 74, of course, my father would end up with the punch line).  I
also assumed that this was a radio routine, since my father launched into
it so automatically if the situation was appropriate (i.e., he wouldn't do
it in church if hymn #73 was announced, but he might if he was at an
airport and the departure of 'flight 73' was announced).  Good thing I
wasn't living with my folks in 1973/74....

Some early radio routines were probably first performed live on the
vaudeville stage. My father's father was a vaudeville stage hand, so it's
possible some of my dad's 'material' came from there.

One of his favorite all-purpose, one-person mini-recitations (which we kids
came to dislike due to overexposure, if nothing else):

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today;
Oh, how I wish he'd go away!

Rightly or wrongly, I associate all of these (and various others) with the
radio/vaudeville material of the 1930s and early 1940s, which certainly
must have included material from (much) earlier sources.

oops, just remembered another two-person routine:

#1  You know Jane Howland?
#2  What's her name?
#1  Who?
#2  Jane Howland.
#1  Never heard of her.
(cue music, usually excerpt from Stars & Stripes Forever)

Michael McKernan


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Sun Mar  7 02:17:12 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:17:12 -0500
Subject: shindig
Message-ID: 

Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old!  But I was expressing
>surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig."  Disco
>was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for
>that).  But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term!

I evidently missed the previous post on 'shindig' but if it matters to
anyone, I have the following citation handy:

Saturday, December 21, 1878 Rochester Indiana The Rochester Sentinel
> Last week a shindig was given at Widow DICKERHOFF's in honor of one
>NEAISWANGER...
http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape
rs%201878.htm

If I have this, without ever having looked for it (before), surely someone
else has found something earlier...please let me know, since I don't have
any of the standard references handy.

Michael McKernan


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Sun Mar  7 19:38:10 2004
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:38:10 -0500
Subject: solid oysters
Message-ID: 

In the course of my research on historical USA oyster foodways, I've come
across the term 'solid oysters' (meaning 'shucked oysters', typically in
the context of being packed for wholesale or retail sale by the pint,
quart, gallon, or, as in the citation below, keg).

I have a January 9, 1857 citation from the New York Tribune, quoted at:
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/6/79.06.03.x.html

>After depositing the requisite number of "solid oysters," as they are
>termed, in each package, a pipe conveying fresh water is applied, and the
>vacant apace filled with nature's beverage, the bungs placed and driven
>home, when it is ready to be shipped.

I also have other citations extending into the 1880s.

Any additional data would be much appreciated.

Michael McKernan